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Commons Chamber

Volume 78: debated on Monday 24 January 1916

House of Commons

Monday, January 24, 1916

TREATY SERIES (No. 15, 1915)

Copy presented of Index to Treaty Series, 1915 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

ALIEN ENEMIES ON THE SS. "GOLCONDA" (MISCELLANEOUS, No. 4, 1916)

Copy presented of Correspondence with the United States Ambassador respecting the safety of Alien Enemies repatriated from India on the ss. "Golconda" [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Irish Land Commission

Copy presented of Return of Advances made under the Irish Land Purchase Acts during the months of April and May, 1915 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Welsh Church Act, 1914

Copy presented of First Report, with Appendices, of the Commissioners of Church Temporalities in Wales, 1914–15 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

West Highland Railway (Extension from Banavie to Mallaig)

Copy presented of Fourteenth Annual Report by the Board of Trade as to the condition and working of the Banavie and Mallaig Railway, the Rates and Charges for Traffic, and the Receipts and Expenditure of any Company in working the Railway, for the year 1914–15 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Railway Servants (Hours of Labour)

Copy presented of Report by the Board of Trade of their proceedings under the Railway Regulation Act, 1893, during the year ended 27th July, 1915 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 426].

Destructive Insects and Pests Acts, 1877 and 1907

Copies presented of Orders numbered D.I.P. 349 and 350, declaring the respective areas described in the Schedules thereto to be infected with Wart Disease and infected areas for the purposes of the Wart Disease of Potatoes (Infected Areas) Order of 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Sulphate of Ammonia

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is taking steps to ensure that the surplus of sulphate of ammonia over and above all home agricultural and munitions works' requirements may be equitably distributed amongst the buyers of neutral nations who have already made contracts for large supplies?

It seems quite possible that during the next few months there may not be any such surplus as that which my hon. Friend suggests. I hope, however, to be in a position to make a statement as to the position of the Government with regard to the export of sulphate of ammonia before the end of the Session.

Imports into Neutral Countries

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) if he will state the monthly figures of imports oversea into Holland, Denmark, Norway, and Sweden from January, 1913, to July, 1914, both inclusive, and from August, 1914, to the latest date obtainable, of all articles of which the import figures show an increase during the War; and (2) if he will state the monthly figures of imports from Germany into Holland, Denmark, Norway, and Sweden from January, 1913, to July, 1914, both inclusive, and also, if known, during the War of all articles of which the import figures show an increase during the War?

I regret to say that no particulars are given in the statistics of foreign trade published monthly by the Scandinavian countries respecting the sources from which imports are derived, so that it is not possible to state the total value of the imports into these countries either from Germany or from overseas during the periods referred to.

Marine Insurance (Government Scheme)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will now furnish the House with information respecting the financial position of the Government scheme for the insurance of merchant ships against war risks; and what, if any, profit has accrued to the Government from this scheme?

I am sorry not to be able to meet the wishes of the hon. Member, but I do not think it would be desirable to publish any figures relating to the insurance scheme at present.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what rate of premiums has from time to time been paid by the owners of merchant ships insured under the Government war risks scheme since its commencement?

The rates of premiums charged on hulls under the Government war risks insurance scheme are as follows:—

At the outbreak of war—

1¼ per cent. for a voyage.

2½ per cent. for a round voyage.

2½ per cent. for a 91 days' time policy.

1st September, 1914—

1 per cent. for a voyage.

2 per cent. for a round voyage.

2 per cent. for a 91 days' time policy.

17th December, 1915—

15s. per cent. for a voyage.

30s. per cent. for a round voyage.

30s. per cent. For a 91 days' time policy.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the increase in the value of British merchant ships during the War, their owners in insuring them under the Government war risks insurance scheme are paying proportionately high premiums?

The value for which ships can be insured under the Government scheme has been increased, and this involves a corresponding rise in the amount of premium paid.

Interned Seamen (Allowances to Dependants)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the number of dependants in this country of British merchant seafarers interened in Germany and Turkey, who have been placed in very necessitous circumstances, and of the increase in the cost of living, he will now be prepared to increase the weekly allowances, none of which exceed £1 per week, which are granted to these dependants under the Government war risks insurance scheme?

I am afraid it would not be possible to increase the amount of the allowances to which the hon. Member refers.

Enemy Ships (Transfer to Neutral Flag)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, and, if so, what, transfers of German merchant ships to neutral flags has been agreed to by the Government; and whether any, and, if so, what, transfer of this kind is in contemplation?

I regret I am not in a position to make any statement on this subject at the present moment.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government accepts it as a principle both of international law and of national policy that the transfer of enemy ships to neutral flags during the War should not be recognised by this country; and, if so, whether any and, if so, what notification thereof has been made to neutral Powers?

The hon. Member is doubtless aware that the transfer of enemy ships to neutral flags is governed by the provisions of Article 56 of the Declaration of London. These provisions have been adopted by His Majesty's Government and are well known to, and recognised by, neutral Powers.

British Ships (Trading Between Neutral Ports)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in order to reduce the cost of food and of raw materials in this country, he will take steps to absolutely prohibit British tonnage from trading between one neutral port and another?

The trade of British ships between neutral ports is being restricted as much as possible. Absolute prohibition would not be to our interest.

Prohibition of Imports

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the economic situation and the shortage of tonnage, he will consider the advisability of prohibiting all imports other than those necessary to the successful conduct of the War and to the existence of the nation?

The method by which unnecessary imports can best be excluded is being considered.

Shipping Companies (Sailing Lists)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will consider the advisability of requiring all British shipping companies having regular sailings to submit to him their advertised schedules of the arrivals and departures of their steamers, with a view to such a reduction in the number of yearly voyages as will secure an immediate release of tonnage to be employed in the national interest?

The Government already have full information as to the voyages and commitments of all British vessels, and this information is kept up to date.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that ships are leaving our ports not fully loaded, and, in view of the shortage of tonnage, ought that not to be prevented?

I should like to have instances brought to my notice, and then we will give them attention, but the object of the Board of Trade and the Government generally is to see that ballast voyages are reduced to a minimum. They cannot be altogether avoided.

Commercial Intelligence (Advisory Committee)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether an Advisory Committee, comprising many leading commercial men, was appointed to make a Report upon various trades of national importance; whether the Committee presented their Report some weeks ago; and whether it is intended to publish this Report as a White Paper, so that the House may know the views of these business men formed after an exhaustive inquiry?

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for London University on the 19th January. I may add that the Report of this Sub-Committee, which was received by the Advisory Committee on Commercial Intelligence on the 11th January, is in the hands of the printers and will be issued as soon as possible.

Merchant Service (War Casualties)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will have prepared and issued a monthly casualty list of officers and men of the merchant service who lose their lives or are injured by torpedoes, mines, shot, or other enemy action in the execution of their duty?

I have very carefully considered my hon. Friend's suggestion, but I cannot see my way to adopt it. However much care is exercised it would hardly be possible to ensure absolute accuracy in the lists, and anything short of absolute accuracy would cause needless anxiety and distress.

Would it not be possible, by taking a reasonable interval after the loss of the vessel to arrive at as nearly absolute accuracy as is possible in the case of naval and military casualties?

There is this distinction between the crews of merchant vessels and naval and military casualties, that every man in the Army or Navy has an identification number, and that adds greatly to the accuracy of the lists which are published. The means of identification are not the same in the merchant service, and I am advised it would be impossible to adopt them.

Export of Wood Pulp (Sweden)

asked the President of the Board of Trade, whether he has any information regarding the export of wood pulp from Sweden?

I understand that the Swedish Government have prohibited, as from the 22nd January, the export of chemical wood pulp, wet or dry.

Mining Students (Examinations)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, (1) whether he is aware that certain universities are allowing examinations to men serving in the Army who were qualified to sit before the War; will he take steps to secure similar facilities of examination to those mining students who had completed their training previous to the War on the recommendation of the colliery agent and leave of the commanding officer; (2) if he will endeavour to obtain from the university authorities facilities for mining students who completed their training by 31st December, 1914, but who have been prevented by service in the Army and Navy from sitting for examination should be granted temporary certificates for two years, and be allowed to take their exami- nations in sections during that period; (3) if he will in the interest of mining obtain facilities for students who have enlisted and at which time had not completed their training; that they should be allowed to count their service as a part not exceeding one year of their mining training, and be allowed to take their examinations in sections; and (4) if special consideration can be granted mining students and others who, being wounded in the national service, for the present are unable to write; and that their examination, under such circumstances, be oral in place of writing?

I have, received representations on the subject referred to in this and the other questions which my hon. Friend has on the Paper, and the Board for Mining Examinations is being consulted with regard to them. I am not in a position to make any statement at present.

Motor Traffic

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether anything can be done by regulation to limit the pace of motor traffic after dark, especially with regard to crossings intersected by three or four main roads?

The police are doing all in their power to secure the safety of the public, and at many important crossings there are traffic points. To impose a reduced speed limit is impracticable; but the provisions of the Motor Car Act of 1903 are sufficient to enable the police to take action in all cases of reckless driving, or driving at a speed which is dangerous. On this subject I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by the late Home Secretary on the 2nd November.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the information he has now given me is exactly the same as he gave me three or four weeks ago?

This is the answer given upon the advice of the advisers of the Home Office. I think the fact of giving the same answer is a demonstration of how correct we must be.

Japan

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can state the nature of the Japanese mission to this country?

A Japanese mission would always be welcome to His Majesty's Government when desired by Japan, but as I have no information respecting a mission perhaps the hon. Member will be good enough to give me the information which he has the advantage of me in possessing.

Food Supplies

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what special arrangements, if any, have been made with neutral countries or sections of neutral traders for the supply to this country of various articles of food?

I do not quite understand what description of special arrangements the hon. Member has in his mind, but I shall be pleased to confer with him on the subject.

Serbia and Montenegro

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can make any statement with regard to the reported capitulation of Montenegro?

No, Sir. Telegraphic communication with Scutari is interrupted and I have no definite information as to what is happening.

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the series of German advantages in Serbia and Montenegro and the possibility of this series being continued unless the most vigorous policy be adopted, he will give time for a Debate in the House of this matter?

asked the Prime Minister whether there exists under the control of the Government any body of men, forming what might be called a thinking department, whose function it is not merely to deal with events as they arise but to anticipate them by long date and to prepare bold and far-reaching plans to stop proposed advances of the Germans; if so, whether the question of the Near East was dealt with in the manner indicated; and whether it is possible to fix responsibility, as far as this country is concerned, for the failures which the actions of the Allies have encountered?

The Government, aided by their expert advisers, endeavour to fulfil these functions.

Non-Excisable Drinks

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that, though the legal limit of alcoholic strength allowed in non-excisable drinks is only 2 per cent., raisin wine containing 10 and ginger win containing 11.61 per cent. of alcohol are sold by grocers; and whether the attentions of the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) are to be extended to others than liquor licensees, who now alone are exposed to its regulations?

I am advised that the beverages mentioned by the hon. Member cannot legally be sold unless the seller holds the proper Excise and justices' licences. Unless therefore they are sold unlawfully, the premises where they are sold are licensed premises within the meaning of the Board's Orders and are controlled accordingly.

War Service Badges

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the national importance of their work in connection with naval and merchant ships, he will consider the desirability of granting war-service badges, or some other form of official recognition, to superintendents and masters of the docks, wharves, and basins in the different seaports in the United Kingdom?

The issue of badges, save as regards crews of transports and employés in naval dockyards and other naval establishments, is in the hands of the Ministry of Munitions.

Royal Naval Reserve (Assistant Paymasters)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty the number of soldiers taken from the ranks of the Army and granted commissions as assistant paymasters, Royal Naval Reserve; what number of chief writers have been granted commissions as assistant paymasters out of the 150 who have been recommended for promotion for higher rank; and whether he can say if the qualifications of the soldiers promoted from the ranks to assistant paymasters are equal to or superior to those of chief writers who have spent a lifetime in the Navy?

The number of men taken from the Army, including the Army Reserve (Class B), and granted commissions as assistant paymasters, Royal Naval Reserve, is 100, these appointments being temporary for the War. As regards the second part of the question, chief writers obtain advancement to warrant writer, and thereafter to commissioned writer, and are not eligible for the rank of assistant paymaster for temporary service. The number of chief writers who have received permanent advancement to warrant rank since the outbreak of war is twenty-four. The qualifications of those entered as temporary assistant paymasters have been very satisfactory, and no useful purpose would be served by instituting the comparison suggested in the third part of the question.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that much dissatisfaction exists among writers in the Royal Navy because they have not been promoted to these posts as assistant paymasters?

Chief writers obtain advancement to warrant writer, and thereafter to commissioned writer, and are not eligible for the rank of assistant paymaster for temporary service. The number of chief writers who have received permanent advancement to warrant rank since the outbreak of war is twenty-four.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that it will create a certain amount of ill-feeling when men from the Army, who have had no naval experience of any kind, and men in the Navy are appointed paymasters over the heads of men who have had considerable service in the Navy, and who, surely, ought to be promoted?

Some of these men applied for posts as assistant paymasters before they joined the Army. They are the type of men required—actuaries and so on, and their service has been satisfactory.

Seeing that men from the Army have been appointed assistant paymasters in the Navy, should not the same privilege be given to men from the Navy to become paymasters in the Army? It ought to cut both ways.

Prize Bounty (Navy)

asked when the first distribution of prize bounty will be made, and the cause of the delay?

My hon. Friend of course realises that no distribution can be made until the Prize Court has given its decision. Cases are now in active preparation for submission to the Court, and I hope that the first case, at any rate, may be so submitted within the next week or two. Of course, there will be no delay in making the distribution of the award to the recipients after the issue of the Decree by the Court declaring title to bounty and fixing the amount?

Does the right hon. Gentleman anticipate any delay in getting the cases dealt with by the Court?

No. It would be obviously improper for me to comment on the procedure of the Court, but I should imagine there will be no delay.

German Ships "Goeben" and "Breslau."

asked whether any communication was received from the French Government in August, 1914, to the effect that the French admiral in the Mediterranean was in pursuit of the "Goeben" and "Breslau," and intended to attack those vessels in the Sea of Marmora or elsewhere; and, if so, what reply was made by the Admiralty to such communication?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say that this story of England's interference in the matter which has been published in Switzerland, probably by German agents, is entirely without foundation?

Scottish Fish-Curers' Ground, Yarmouth

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he can state what protection Scottish fish curers holding corporation ground at Yarmouth have against being pressed for rent, seeing that the Admiralty has practically stopped the fishing industry in Scotland?

I am not aware that, in the circumstances mentioned, a tenant would have protection, unless his case came within the provisions of the Courts (Emergency Powers) Act, 1914.

Workhouse Accommodation, Leicestershire

asked what steps are being taken to put a stop to the waste that is accruing owing to the over-provision of workhouse accommodation in Leicestershire which has been brought to his notice by the various urban district and parish councils in the county?

I think that the resolutions which have been passed on this subject by various urban district councils and parish councils in Leicestershire have been based upon a misapprehension of the real facts. The surplus accommodation at the present time is much less than is supposed; it may be only a temporary surplus, and it is spread over a number of different institutions. In view of the necessity for making separate provision for different classes of inmates, considerable deductions have to be made from the gross total in order to arrive at the net total accommodation which may at any time be required

If it is the case that all the people could be accommodated in two workhouses, could not they be assembled in them and the others closed, so that money could be saved?

I cannot answer that question unless I have the special circumstances before me. The surplus accommodation for the number of inmates is very much less now than it was some months ago. It is essential that there should be classification of certain classes of inmates, and this can only be managed by keeping more houses open than otherwise would be necessary. I will consider any special cases put before me.

Visits to the Front (Members of Parliament)

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the need of Members of Parliament understanding the real conditions at the front, he is prepared to make arrangements with the Commander-in-Chief in France to enable all Members of the House to visit the front during the Parliamentary recess?

If the instructional excursions suggested were to be instituted they would have to include Members of both Houses of Parliament. To send over, either in a body, or in relays, such a large number of legislators would, however, be a very large undertaking, and would be a considerable tax both on the time and powers of organisation of the General Officer Commanding and of the staff. A considerable number of Members have, I understand, already been to the front, and the Debates in this House show evidence of this. It might possibly be practicable to arrange from time to time for some additional Members to proceed to the front. Perhaps, if the hon. and gallant Gentleman has in mind any particular Members who would, in his opinion, derive special benefit from a visit to the trenches, he will communicate with me in private on the subject.

Will the right hon. Gentleman see that some of the Members sent over under these conditions remain there?

The answer is that they were gentlemen who are doing great service to the State in relation both to recruiting and to the addition to our munitions.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that a great number of Members who have done both these things have never been asked?

May I state that my visit to the front was merely incidental to what I had to do.

Military Service (No. 2) Bill

Military Service Bill

asked the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to state his intentions concerning the Military Service Bill; and, if it is to be proceeded with, on what date the Second Reading of the Bill will be taken?

It will he impossible to proceed with this Bill during this Session.

Wealthy Englishmen (Residence in America)

asked what steps, if any, have been taken towards keeping a record of wealthy Englishmen going to reside and acquiring land and house property in America and in British Colonies since the outbreak of war; and whether it is intended to recall those of them of military age, and to tax their property in the United Kingdom in respect of that acquired abroad during the progress of the War?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. With regard to the second, a regulation has been made under the Defence of the Realm Act whereby men of military age are prevented from leaving the country without passports, and these are only given where good reasons can be shown.

The right hon. Gentleman has not dealt with the question of the tax on these people.

Questions

Licensed Trade (Compensation)

asked whether the Committee presided over by the right hon. and learned Member for Exeter has received instructions to grant compensation to licensees who suffer loss in consequence of the regulations made by the Central Control Board on 18th November, 1915, for the London area?

The answer is in the negative. I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply on this subject which was given by the Prime Minister on the 9th December last in answer to the hon. Member for the Thornbury Division. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy.

Is this order of general application or an exceptional interference justifying compensation, as was laid down on 9th December I Will the right hon. Gentleman let me have an answer to that?

My hon. Friend will find all the information which I am able to give in the answer to which I have referred.

Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly note that that is the one missing thing for which I am now asking?

Blockade of Germany

asked the Prime Minister if he is satisfied that the measures, which he announced on 1st March last year, the Government intended to adopt in order to prevent commodities of any kind from reaching or leaving Germany have been effectual; and, if not, do the Government intend to take other and more stringent action to stop supplies from reaching the enemy?

Irish Departments (Grants)

asked whether the annual Grant to the Royal Irish Academy of Music will be continued?

Yes, Sir; the Treasury has modified its decision, in view of facts as to the Academy's financial position recently brought to its notice.

The two cases are on quite a different footing, the financial position of the English Academy being absolutely different.

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the Grant to Ireland for the training of teachers, including summer schools and the teaching of Irish, and the Grant for the training of teachers in connection with technical education will be continued; and whether the Grants to the Department of Agriculture in Ireland for science in the intermediate schools will be continued?

asked whether, in respect of the economies proposed to be effected in the several Irish administrative Departments, regard will be had to the principle that we should not attempt to economise on the money we now spend on technical colleges and modern appliances and that we should improve our research methods, the education of our people, and the training of our young men?

asked the results generally of the further consideration given to the threatened withdrawal or reduction of Grants to Irish institutions and, in particular, with reference to the Grants to Irish training colleges?

asked the Chief Secretary whether, in view of the apprehension existing in Ireland in regard to the intention of the Government in dealing with the financial Grants to Ireland, he is in a position to make a statement on the subject; whether he will take into account that some of the Grants, as, for instance, to the Gaelic colleges, are small but are necessary to the maintenance of a great deal of educational activity, and that other Grants are reproductive, such as those designed to encourage horse-breeding and for other national purposes under the direction of the Board of Agriculture, and that the Grants necessary for the support of the primary and secondary schools and for fostering technical education are of the highest national utility; and whether he will use his best endeavours to secure that the Grants are not diminished?

I have given careful consideration to these matters, and am submitting proposals for Treasury sanction which will make it possible to continue the Grants referred to.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether there is any foundation whatever for the statement that is current in Ireland that the withdrawal of these Grants was due to the suggestion of the Under-Secretary, Sir Matthew Nathan?

The Under-Secretary made no suggestion of any such kind whatsoever. There is not a shadow of pretext for the allegation against him.

In view of that fact, will the right hon. Gentleman explain to the House his willingness to enforce it, and, if unwilling, why he did not resign?

Khaki Export to France

asked the hon. Member for Oswestry, as representing the War Trade Department, whether he has had any applications from Glasgow cloth manufacturers for licences to export khaki to France; whether the reply to these applications was that the Glasgow Chamber of Commerce would decide as to whether such cloth was permitted to be so exported; whether he is aware of the fact that the reply of the officials of that chamber was that they had no instructions whatever on that point from his Department; and whether he will explain how such dealings with the mercantile community of the country assist the finances of the War?

The War Trade Department have received the applica- tions referred to. The answer to the second part of the question is in the affirmative. The reply from the officials of the Glasgow Chamber of Commerce as stated in the question, must, I think, have been given under some misapprehension of the arrangement with regard to the export of wool made by the Board of Trade, and notified by that Department to the different chambers of commence in December, 1914. In these circumstances it is, perhaps, unnecessary for me to give any reply to the last part of the question.

Cloth Export (Sweden)

asked the hon. Member for Oswestry, as representing the War Trade Department, whether an application was made to his Department on 5th November last by a Glasgow cloth manufacturer for a licence to export cloth goods to Sweden; whether he is aware that it was clearly shown that similar goods in similar quantity had been sent for years to the same consignee, and that a refusal of such licence was given on 29th November, or three and half weeks after the application; whether he is aware that four letters were sent by the trader to the War Trade Department, asking to whom, an appeal against that decision could be made, followed by a telegram asking the same thing; and that the Department's reply to this telegram was an inquiry as to the number of the application; whether the Treasury intervened in this case, asking that a reply should be given; and whether any reply has yet been forthcoming?

The facts are as stated in the question. The matter has been the subject of recent communications with the applicant for the licence, and a full explanation has been given to him with an expression of regret for the delay in dealing with the matter.

Postal Delivery (Sundays)

asked the Postmaster General if his Department have come to a final decision re the suspension of the Sunday delivery of letters throughout the whole. Kingdom, as is already in operation in London, so as to procure one day's rest for the staff?

A decision has not yet been arrived at.

Metals (Enemy Control)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what has been the result of his communications with the Government of Australia in order completely to carry out the desire of that Government to free the metals of the Commonwealth from enemy control and to encourage their development for the benefit of the industries of Australia and the British Empire?

asked what means the Imperial and Australian Governments together propose in order to secure for the British Empire, in peace as well as in war, the full benefit of the Australian metal resources?

asked whether any definite proposals are now before the British and Dominion Governments for cooperation in the granting of bonuses for the refining in the United Kingdom or the Dominions of zinc and other metals of Empire origin?

This important subject is one which the Prime Minister of the Commonwealth has telegraphed his desire to discuss personally with me during his forthcoming visit to this country.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether His Majesty's Government are taking any measures, in co-operation with the Governments of Ontario and the Dominion of Canada, to further the declared intention of the Ontario Government to eliminate foreign manipulation of the nickel ores of Ontario so that, in view of their importance for purposes of defence, industries may be created within the Empire which will keep these products under observation from the time they leave the mines to the time they are marketed?

In June last the Dominion Government approached His Majesty's Government on behalf of the Government of Ontario and asked for their co-operation to the extent of recommending a suitable person for appointment as a member of a Commission about to be appointed to investigate and report on the nickel industry and resources of Ontario. His Majesty's Government recommended Mr. G. T. Holloway, and the Ontario Government appointed a Royal Commission on 9th September with Mr. Holloway as chairman. The investigation which has been entrusted to the Commission is of a very wide character, and some time must elapse before it is completed.

East African Campaign

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can give the House any information as to the East African campaign; and if he can state whether General Sir H. Smith-Dorrien is to proceed at once from South Africa to the seat of operations?

Minor operations only have taken place lately. On 6th December a German raiding force attacked and dislodged a weak observation post of our troops at Kasigap, which is about seventy-five miles west of Mombasa.

On 8th January there was an encounter between two patrols in the vicinity of Mwelendogo (towards the south-west end of the Shimba Hills), in which Major Wavell and Lieutenant Mackintosh, of the Arab Company, were killed, and Major Leitch (25th Battalion Royal Fusiliers) was wounded.

On 21st January our forces occupied Longido, which is in German territory, and Mbuyuni, without encountering any serious opposition, although heavy rains rendered the advance arduous.

General Sir H. Smith-Dorrien will embark for East Africa, after a short stay in South Africa, where he proceeded for the purpose of consultation with the Government of the Union.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can give the House any information as to military operations in East Africa and Nyassaland?

I have just dealt with the East African operations in reply to the last question. As regards Nyassaland, there has been no development; heavy rains and the flooded state of the border district's have impeded military operations.

Scrip Vouchers

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether since 1st December small investors have been deprived of the opportunity of putting their savings into Post Office vouchers?

The 1st December was the date originally announced for the closing of the issue of scrip vouchers. The results of the issue did not justify any extension of the time limit.

Income Tax

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the Bombay Tramways Company, in order to avoid the payment of double Income Tax, is removing its headquarters from London to Bombay; whether he is aware that many Colonial companies pay a triple Income Tax; and whether, in view of the probable removal of many more companies and the net loss involved to the trade and revenue of the United Kingdom, he will endeavour to adjust this grievance in his forthcoming Budget?

My hon. Friend refers to a company which I understand operates a system of tramways outside the United Kingdom, and which is owned predominantly by persons resident in India. These circumstances suggest that considerations other than the incidence of the British Income Tax may have influenced the company in its decision.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a very large number of the shareholders are resident in India, and that there is a very small number in this country?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if persons resident in this country drawing incomes from Australia are required to pay the war rate of Income Tax here when they have already paid the 3s. 6d. in the £ war rate Income Tax in Australia; if so, can he see his way to make some special concession on their behalf?

I would refer the hon. and learned Member to the reply which I gave on the 11th November last to my hon. Friend the Member for Merionethshire.

Development Commission (Horse-Breeding)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Development Commission have withdrawn the Grants for horse-breeding to England, Scotland, and Ireland; and whether the Treasury are prepared to make good the deficiencies so caused by placing on the Estimates for each of the three countries an amount equivalent to the Grants so withdrawn?

The English and Scottish Grants have already been settled. The Treasury are prepared to place on the Estimates such provision for Ireland as the Department of Agriculture may consider absolutely necessary in 1916–17 not exceeding, as a maximum, the sum voted in 1015–16.

Motor Spirit

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to the difficulty experienced in fulfilling private orders for motor spirit owing to the quantities required by His Majesty's Forces, and to the need for the practice of economy in the use of the spirit, so that ample supplies may be always available for naval and military purposes; and whether he proposes to take action to ensure economy in the use of motor spirit by the owners of cars which are not employed either for trade or professional purposes?

I have no official information as to the first part of the question. As regards the second part, I may remind the hon. Member of the taxes that have recently been imposed upon imported motor cars and the increased duty on motor spirit.

Valuation Department

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state how many members of the Valuation Department at present on the staff are eligible for military service, or between the ages of nineteen and forty-one, and how many of these have enlisted; also how many men of military age have been placed on the permanent staff since 31st October, 1915, and how many of these have enlisted; and how many retrenched members of the Valuation Department who are not eligible for military service have been temporarily re-engaged since 7th December, 1915, in order to release members of the permanent staff who are eligible for military service?

The members of the Inland Revenue Valuation Office (temporary and permanent) now actually serving with the naval and military forces number 944. The permanent valuation staff as a whole has been allowed by the Board of Inland Revenue to enter Section B of the Army Reserve, and the question of the possibility of releasing from their official duties further officers as and when their groups are called up will be carefully considered. Already, in addition to the number above mentioned, eighty-seven officers have been granted permission to apply for commissions or to enlist. The permanent valuation officers of military age not included in the figures quoted number 193. No addition has been made to the authorised permanent establishment, and the period of years during which the selection of officers most suitable to complete that establishment has been in process came to a conclusion last summer. The Board of Inland Revenue expect to be able to re-engage, on a monthly hiring, a further number of candidates formerly in their temporary employment to act as temporary substitutes for permanent officers absent on military service, and in these cases preference will be given to candidates who, for reasons of age or health, are not available for military service.

Have any of the retrenched temporary staff been engaged up to the present moment?

The right hon. Gentleman says "further number." What is the number already engaged?

I am afraid I cannot answer that question without making further inquiry.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the fact that these men called temporary assistants were practically engaged on the understanding that their appointment would be permanent, and will he draft men over the miliary age into other branches of the Civil Service?

I am afraid I cannot agree with the description given by my hon. Friend of the agreement. It has been my duty to examine the terms of the agreement with great care, and there can be no question that they were engaged for a specified period and no longer.

Gold Coin (Melting Down)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the practice of melting down sovereigns in order to use the gold for commercial purposes is still carried on in this country to a considerable extent; and if he will state what steps have been taken to put an end to such a practice at the present crisis?

. I fear that for the moment I cannot add anything to the answers that I have already given on this subject. The whole question is under consideration.

Would it not be practicable to introduce a short Bill containing a single Clause to prohibit this practice?

It would be quite practicable to introduce a Bill forbidding the melting of coin, but the effect of that Bill would not be to stop the manufacture of jewellery from bar gold, and it is a question whether it is expedient to introduce a Bill forbidding the use of bar gold for that purpose.

Deutsche Bank

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer for what period it is estimated it will be necessary to keep open the London branch of the Deutsche Bank; if the sole object of keeping it as a going concern is to enable it to discharge its liabilities; and whether he is aware that it has already been kept open for seventeen months for this purpose?

I am not in a position to make any statement as regards the first part of the question. The answer to the second and third parts of the question is in the affirmative, subject to the qualification that the liabilities of the bank in this connection do not include liabilities to enemies.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to see that pressure is brought to bear to put an end to an institution of this sort in this country?

So long as the carrying on of this business in this country leads to the payment of debts to British subjects and Allies, I think on the whole it is preferable that the debts should be paid.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the appointment of a liquidator would be a quicker way to get the debts paid than by keeping the bank open?

I am glad of the hon. Member's opinion, but I would remind him that there are two opinions about that.

Are there any liabilities still in existence other than liabilities to alien enemies?

I cannot say what the amount is. As soon as all the liabilities other than the liabilities to alien enemies are paid, of course the business of the bank will not be continued.

Is there any desire on the part of the Government to keep this institution in being until the end of the War?

Not the slightest. The only desire on the part of the Government is to see that injury is not done to British subjects.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many men out of the 100 at present employed in carrying on the Deutsche Bank in London are German or enemy subjects, naturalised subjects, and British-born subjects respec- tively; and what is the weekly amount paid in salaries to these employes, respectively?

The present staff engaged at the Deutsche Bank is composed as follows:—

Are those enemy subjects living at their own addresses, or are they interned at night?

I am afraid that is a question that will have to be addressed to the Home Secretary. I am not familiar with the subject.

Retrenchment Committee

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Retrenchment Committee, of which he was chairman, did not meet from 9th September until 29th December; what arrangement has since the latter date been made as to the number of meetings to be held; and how many, have been held during the month of January?

The Committee held several meetings in November between the two dates mentioned by my hon. Friend and during the whole period the Treasury were in constant communication with Departments on the subject of economy, and a number of memoranda and other documents were prepared for the Committee. Six meetings have been held in January, and for the present the Committee have arranged to meet twice a week.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that those dates are taken from a statement by a Member of the Government, the head of the Agricultural Department?

Company Issues (Treasury Decisions)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the decisions of the Treasury Committee on new issues have any legal force; and whether there is any appeal against them?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the late Chancellor of the Exchequer to my hon. Friend the Member for the Bridgeton Division on the 18th May last. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of the reply.

Irish Prisons Board (Economies)

asked whether the proposed economies in Irish Departments include a reduction of the personnel and expenditure of the Irish Prisons Board, in view of the diminution of crime and of prisons and the consequent diminution of work of the Board?

With a view to economy the General Prisons Board have temporarily dispensed with the assistance of the inspector of prisons and that of three clerks. The work of the Department does not admit of any further economies in present circumstances.

Army Pensions (Recall to Colours)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, in accordance with paragraph 6 of instructions for the guidance of pensioners, any pensioners have yet been called up for service in the United Kingdom?

No, Sir; it was decided after considerable discussion that there was no legal power to recall pensioners compulsorily to the Colours.

Sailors and Soldiers (Travelling Facilities)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War (1) whether he is aware that sailors and soldiers going to the Isle of Lewis on leave, and proceeding by Messrs. D. M'Brayne and Company's, Limited mail-boat from Kyle of Lochalsh to Stornoway are carried on the main deck, upon which cattle and sheep are ordinarily carried; whether he is aware that there is no adequate accommodation to protect them from wind and sea; whether he will take steps to secure that these men, including men on sick leave, receive reasonable protection from the exposure involved in this, the only method of transit; and (2) whether he is aware that No. 8,201 Private Kenneth Murray, of the 2nd battalion Seaforth Highlanders, after over a year's service on the Western front, proceeded on leave to his home in Stornoway in December, 1915; that he took passage by Messrs. D. M'Brayne and Company's, Limited mail-boat "Sheila," from Kyle of Lochalsh to Stornoway, on the 21st December, 1915; that, in common with other sailors and soldiers proceeding on leave, he was without cabin accommodation or protection from the elements, but was carried on the main deck; that, on the arrival of the "Sheila" at Stornoway, he was found dead on the hatch over the cargo hold; whether any inquest or other public inquiry was held as to the cause of death; and, if so, with what result; whether the military authorities or the family of the deceased were represented or had any opportunity of being represented at such inquest or inquiry; whether the death was caused or accelerated by exposure; and whether he will take steps to insure that soldiers who have for upwards of a year withstood exposure in the trenches may not be sacrificed by exposure when proceeding home on leave?

No information has reached the War Office regarding the particular case referred to in question No. 94. I have, however, called for a report. Incidentally, I may remark that an inquest is not a Scottish institution. On the general question I am obtaining information, but I understand from my hon. Friend the Member for Ross and Cromarty that the naval authorities have been assisting in the transport of soldiers and sailors on leave when it is impossible for the "Sheila" to run, and the Admiralty informs me that the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty made representations to them several days before the question was put on the Paper regarding better facilities.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the "Sheila" runs every other day, and that men on leave are carried on other days by coal boats, and that the same difficulty as regards the elements occurs in one case as in the other, and under those circumstances will be give the matter further consideration?

I might give a great deal of consideration to the inclemency of the elements, but I should not be able to alter it.

Military Canteens

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War, whether military canteens have been started now on the Suez Canal defences; if he will say what has been the cause of the delay; and whether the arrangements will be carried out at once so as to avoid the troubles that occurred on the peninsula of Gallipoli?

Instructions have been given for the establishment of canteens in the area named. The preliminary steps were taken at the beginning of the year, but there were various questions of a general nature to be settled before the final instructions could be given.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Y.M.C.A. already have a large number of huts on the Suez Canal defences, and are prepared to run canteens at the present moment if the War Office will allow them to do so?

If War Office facilities could be given that it will be done, is that the idea of the hon. Gentleman?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether there are sufficient reasons why the Army Council, in dealing with military canteens in this country, should not make use of a system similar to that of the Expeditionary Force canteens which are doing such good work in France; whether it is indicated that such a system would result in a large saving both to the soldier and the country; and will the subject receive early and favourable consideration if the adoption of the system in this country has not been decided on already?

The question of a semiofficial general canteen system for the conduct and supply of all canteens throughout the whole of the Service was being carefully considered shortly before the outbreak of war by a Special Committee presided over by Lord Rotherham. Owing to the War, the question had for the moment to be dropped. It is now proposed that the Board of Control, Regimental Institutes, shall be directed to reconsider this question and to submit their recommendations thereon for the consideration of the Government.

Farm Work

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War how many replies he has had accepting the offer made to farmers to loan horses for farm work?

This question should, I think, be addressed to the Board of Agriculture. I understand, however, that the circular to which my hon. Friend is doubtless referring has not been issued long enough for any considerable number of replies to have been received.

Special Reserve (Honours List)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if the senior officers in the Special Reserve have received any recognition in the honours list for the work they have done and are doing so efficiently since August, 1914; and, if not, will he see that their claims receive due consideration?

I can only say that I hope that all officers who have done specially good work during the War will receive their fair share of honours to whatever branch of the Service they may belong.

War Films

asked whether, among the war films sanctioned by the War Office for exhibition in this country, are some taken at the instigation of the Kaiser for the education of neutral countries which represent the devastation caused by the Russian advance into East Prussia and the humanity and kindliness of the Germans in Belgium; whether such films were exhibited at the Scala Theatre on the 17th instant; if so, why such films were exhibited; why their exhibition was sanctioned; and whether their exhibition will immediately be stopped?

I understand that the films to which the hon. Gentleman presumably refers are not War Office official films, but that they have been passed by the Military Censorship. They are not described as War Office films and their exhibition is a matter of private enterprise. I understand further that they are harmless pictures and that a lecturer explains exactly what they are. I am informed he forgets nothing, the pictures are consequently exhibited in the right light. These films were much praised in the Press when they first appeared and it is not proposed to take any action.

Volunteer Bill [Lords]

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War, whether the Volunteer Bill [Lords], enabling the War Office to make regulations dealing with the employment by them of volunteer corps, associated to the Central Association of Volunteer Training Corps, will be proceeded with in this House this Session; and, if not, whether his Department will consider the introduction next Session of a similar Bill, by which the Volunteer Training Corps in England and the National Guard in Scotland can be brought under War Office control and be employed for purposes of Home defence, thereby releasing Regular troops for more active service overseas?

This is a question which should, I think, more properly be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. It is not, I believe, contemplated to proceed with this Bill before the Prorogation which is expected to take place this week. As regards what will take place next Session, my hon. Friend will doubtless agree that it is early days to speak.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that about 300,000 volunteers are affected by this Bill, that they are taking the greatest interest in it, and that there is a danger that they may feel themselves snubbed by the War Office unless they get a little more encouragement? Can he not give them a little more encouragement than was contained in his last answer?

I should be the last person to discourage the 300,000 men to whom my hon. Friend refers. If the Bill is not proceeded with the fact surely ought to be laid not at the door of the War Office, but at quite another door.

Then I understand that the War Office really appreciate the services of these volunteers?

Expeditionary Forces (Wastage)

asked what proportion of the 15 per cent. calculated as the average monthly wastage for Infantry of the Expeditionary Forces must be reckoned as permanently non-effective; and what proportion must be considered as requiring replacement by drafts from Home?

This question cannot conveniently be dealt with by question and answer, and I am doubtful whether it can be discussed at all in public without giving to the enemy information which is much better withheld.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that he himself offered to give the figures?

Air Raids on Kentish Coast

( by Private Notice ) asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether it is not a fact that in the three hostile air raids upon a locality on the East Coast of Kent yesterday none of our aircraft were engaged; whether adequate precautions exist for enabling our Air Service to deal with such visits, and, if so, why they failed to operate in the case of these thrice-repeated raids yesterday upon the same locality in the course of twenty-four hours?

The question sent to me by the Noble Lord only reached me late in the morning, and I have not been able to obtain full information. I understand, however, that there were not three raids, as stated, but two, one of which took place during the night and one during the day. The hostile aircraft were fired at by anti-aircraft guns both on land and sea. Four military aeroplanes and two seaplanes went up in pursuit, but the raiders were too far ahead to be overtaken.

Greek Steamer "Chrysopolis."

( by Private Notice ) asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the Greek steamer "Chrysopolis," which left Alexandria about a month ago for Hull with a general cargo of food-stuffs, including about £30,000 worth of grain and eggs of the value of £20,000, was taken by an Italian cruiser whilst in the act of transferring supplies to an Austrian submarine; and is he aware that the steamer has been before the Italian Prize Court and that she is being detained in a harbour on the Tripoli Coast, and will he take steps to enable the ship to discharge her cargo in Hull?

His Majesty's Government have been in constant communication with His Majesty's Ambassador at Rome as regards this vessel, which, it is understood, was captured by an Italian warship and taken to Tobruk in order to be placed in the Italian Prize Court. Sir R. Rodd was at once instructed to take such steps as he could to facilitate the speedy release of the British-owned cargo, in view of its perishable nature, and to request the Italian Government, if possible, to allow the ship to continue its voyage to this country.

According to information received from His Majesty's Ambassador, the vessel, which, owing to some disablement, is only able to steam at a rate of 3 or 4 knots, has been conducted to Messina, and the Italian Government state that the cargo of eggs must be disposed of at once, as some have already perished and the remainder could not stand the journey to England.

In the circumstances, and as the only possible course open to save the consignees from a total loss, His Majesty's Government have instructed Sir R. Rodd to endeavour to arrange with His Majesty's Consular officers in the South of Italy and Sicily, and with the Governor of Malta to dispose of the eggs locally over as wide an area as is practicable, and to secure sales to the best advantage.

As regards the remainder of the cargo the Italian Government expressed their regret that they are unable to allow the vessel to proceed to the United Kingdom, as the destination of a large part of the goods is unknown. For this reason, and as the formalities of capture are not yet completed, they state that it will be necessary to tranship the British cargo to another vessel at Messina.

Air Fighting (Western Front)

( by Private Notice ): I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he can give any additional information in regard to the recent air fighting on the Western front?

I have received the following telegram:—The following is the information with regard to the working of the Royal Flying Corps during the last four weeks:—

Hostile machines are reported as "brought down" or "driven down" when they are seen to fall to the ground uncontrolled, but the enemy probably suffers many casualties of which our officers, who are scrupulously careful m their reports, are not certain. In many cases the Germans break off combats and descend rapidly to their own lines; in such cases no claim of causing a casualty is made.

Has the right hon. Gentleman received any complaint on the part of flying men at the front, since the recent change in direction, to the effect that they are asked to perform tasks when the weather is entirely unfavourable?

Decimal System

asked the President of the Board of Education whether his attention has been given to estimates formed of the loss of time in education, trade, keeping accounts, and office work, due to our non-decimal systems of coinage, weights, and measures; and whether changes designed to economise time and brain work and to make our standards of value and measures more in accord with those of foreign countries will be duly considered?

My right hon. Friend is aware of the opinions which have been expressed as regards the loss of time in education due to the present system of coinage, weights and measures. In considering the question of a change from a non-decimal to a decimal system regard must be had mainly to the business and commercial advantages or disadvantages involved, which are matters within the province of the Board of Trade.

Ministers of the Crown (Re-election)

asked the Prime Minister if he will consider the advisability of introducing a Bill to obviate the necessity of Members of this House appointed to offices of profit under the Crown seeking re-election?

Loan Fund Board (Ireland)

asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether the Department have yet taken over the functions of the Loan Fund Board; whether he proposes to effect any changes in the administration or policy of the Loan Fund business as hitherto carried out; and, if so, will he indicate what such changes will be?

The powers and duties exercised by the Loan Fund Board were transferred to the Department by Order in Council dated 21st December. Pending the settlement of certain matters, however, the Department have not yet actually taken over the administration of the system.

Land Purchase (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the Congested Districts Board, in carrying out the promised vesting of tenants' holdings on the estate if the Knight of Kerry in Valentia Island, will also deal with the holdings of the tenants of Trinity College on the island?

The reply I gave on the 13th instant to the hon. Member's question concerning the Knight of Kerry's estate, which reply had reference not to the vesting of holdings, but to the signing of undertakings to purchase, applies equally to the Trinity College estate.

Personal Explanation

I am very sorry, on a day like this, to ask the indulgence of the House of Commons for a few minutes to a personal explanation. I think the House will agree with me that I have no other choice. I found when I got home this week-end that in my absence the hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King) and the hon. Baronet the Member for Mansfield (Sir A. Markham) had between them started the question containing the suggestion that I had taken the opportunity that offered from one of the finest associations that has ever emerged in the work of this War to run away from military service. The taunt had gone round: "What do you think of him now? He will not go to the front," and so forth. This thing was dished up in many forms. My bad example was used to malign the House of Commons, to put a slur upon my Constituents, and, in my absence to give pain to those who are dearest to me. I shall give my answer in a very summary form, without referring to the business or the details of it, though I can give all the papers to any inquisitive person, or any responsible person who doubts or flouts my word. I do that because I do not want to drag in any other people; for this is not the time for personal squabbles, but the time to get on with the War, and for us to shut up until it is all over.

What I have to say is this: As everybody knows, at the very beginning of the War I threw myself into the recruiting campaign in my Constituency. We did as well as any other part of the country. There were influences there that hon. Members know about. I myself called the attention of the House to them a long time ago. They have been called attention to since, more dramatically, by the triumphant return of my new colleague. I pressed the War Office to allow me to raise a special battalion in my Constituency, in which I would take a commission. Members know the delays that always ensued in those days in the bringing about of anything like that. Much to my delight, the Army Council eventually agreed that I should raise this battalion. I was referred to the necessary military authorities for details. Then the trouble began. Week after week went by, delay after delay occurred, until I began flinging letters about, the violence of which I now regret. All to no pur- pose. While all this delay was going on I was asked to go out to France to help the organisation to which I have referred in its early transport difficulties, so that it might be established on some proper basis there. Under the circumstances, I found I could make a better use of my time. Whilst others were criticising, I might, I thought, be working. I gave my time free of charge, and did not charge anything in the way of expenses. Instead of sitting down quietly at home and making money for myself, so taking advantage of the absence of other people, I worked. So things went on until I was asked what sort of commission I wanted. I replied, "Anything in the world except one thing: it must be understood that, providing I pass the necessary tests, I am going with these fellows to the front. I am not going to ask men to join the battalion if I am going to sit at home and they are sent out." There was no difficulty about that; but other difficulties seemed to arise. The Admiralty, as the Financial Secretary would say, came in suddenly and stopped recruiting. That threw the proposal for a battalion back again. I think it muddled on till March.

At the end of March, or early in April, the suggestion was made to me that I should take a commission and be attached to the recruiting authorities. That would have meant a captaincy and a pay that attaches to the magical khaki, and an end to all imputations and everything else. After thinking it over I thanked those concerned very much for the offer, said I appreciated it, but added, "Those are the posts for old crocks. It is not right for a young man like myself to be sitting down recruiting while others fellows are going to the front. If I am not fit to go there myself I decline a commission." I said I preferred to be marked as a shirker in honest civilian dress as to be masquerading as a real shirker in sham khaki. Then I continued my work in France, until eventually I met with a slight but awkward accident and came back again. For a fortnight I was engaged at the Ministry of Munitions. I was there working until last November without asking for, or receiving, a penny piece or charging a half-penny for expenses. Having got better, at the beginning of November I thought I would have another shot at a commission. I got a form filled up—I have it here in my pocket—signed by a command- ing officer, granting me a commission. I went to the doctor and was referred to an expert. It was only in the third week of November that it was made known to me that they could not pass me as fit for active service at the front. It was then that the Y.M.C.A., being in special difficulties in respect to the rumoured abandonment of Gallipoli, asked me if I could hurry out and fight my way through in a race against time and give the help they needed there. Under the circumstances I decided to do what they wanted. I received back the blue form, which I have in my pocket, saying that I was unfit for military service.

That is my story. That is how I ran away to this haunt of security, to the delightful ease of the Mediterranean and the Ægean. All I have to say is that it is a very regrettable story and a very painful one. I hope that time will enable me to expiate it. The hon. Member for North Somerset and the hon. Baronet may like to enjoy driving one to lay bare a thing that is raw. They are welcome to it. I may yet get the chance to join as a humble private, or otherwise, and so give my answer to that brute force which has made a hell of the world at the present time. In the meantime I will go on and take on what service I may for nothing, and unselfishly, as I have been doing, in what field is open to me. There are many fields of service, from that of Lord Kitchener and generals at the War Office down. There is only one field of honour, and one badge of honour, and that is the mud of the dug-out and the dust of the charge.

The hon. Member has made a personal explanation to which there is no right of reply.

May I give notice that at the earliest possible opportunity I shall explain my attitude in the matter, seeing in his explanation the hon. Member has referred to me?

Orders of the Day

Business of the House

Ordered, "That the Proceedings upon the Military Service (No. 2) Bill, if under discussion at Eleven o'clock this night, be not interrupted under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ The Prime Minister. ]

Military Service (No. 2) Bill

As amended, considered.

4.0 P.M.

The first new Clause [ Extension of Exemptions ] standing in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for North St. Pancras (Mr. Dickinson) should come as an Amendment to Clause 2. The first Clause [ Definitions of "Child" and "Dependant" ] standing in the name of the hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King) should be an Amendment to Clause 1. His second Clause [ Proceedings before Tribunals to be in Public Except in Special Cases ] should be an Amendment at the end of Clause 2. His third Clause [ Protection of Person Holding Certificate from Insult, etc., ] and his fourth Clause [ Provisions with Respect to Dismissal of Employed Persons holding or eligible for Certificates of Exemption ] are beyond the scope of the Bill. The fifth Clause [ Vaccination and Inoculation ] ought to be an Amendment to Clause (1), Sub-section (2).

NEW CLAUSE.—(Permission to Persons Enlisted under this Act to Join Territorial Force.)

If any person deemed to have been enlisted and to have been transferred to the Reserves under this Act shall before he is called out on permanent service or on his being called out, and before he is appointed to a corps of the Regular Army, express a wish to become a member of the Territorial Force he shall, unless it shall in the opinion of the Army Council or any competent military authority prescribed by them for that purpose, be inexpedient on the ground of military exigency so to do be permitted to join that force, and on his being accepted for and duly enlisted in that force, and having consented to serve therein outside the United Kingdom, he shall be discharged from the Reserve of the Regular Army.—[ Captain Cassel. ]

Clause brought up, and read the first time.

I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."

The Object of this Clause is to make it clear what the position of the Territorial Force is under this Bill. The matter was raised in Committee, but was not finally disposed of, and was to be fully considered on Report. Everybody enlisted under this Bill is swept into the Regular Army. It was stated that the Bill was to be a general pool for the Regular Army, the Special Reserve, or the Territorial Force. If Members will look at the first Clause they will see that everyone deemed to be enlisted under it is deemed to be enlisted in the Regular Army, and is transferred to the Reserve of the Regular Army. Enlistment under the group system for the Territorial Force is, I believe, impossible. All enlistments under the group system are into the Regular Army, and direct enlistments are very rare. The result is that, so far as direct enlistment is concerned, the Territorial Force will have great difficulty in getting new recruits, except in so far as they can get them from the men who are enlisted in the Regular Army under the group system, whether under Lord Derby's scheme or under the Bill. What this Clause aims at is that a man should be given a choice, as far as possible, of being released from the Regular Army and joining the Territorial Force. I fully recognise that it is impossible to give a man an absolute choice in that matter; some discretion must be reserved to the War Office, and the Clause provides for that. But what is desired is that, so far as possible, that choice should be accorded. If the right hon. Gentleman will make a statement that it is the intention of the War Office to do that, that would in itself be very reassuring, although it would be preferable to have some words in the Bill to secure this object.

The Territorial Force are a little apprehensive as to what their position at the present time is, having regard to the fact that it is so difficult to get men by direct enlistment. We should like, therefore, to have some words in the Bill, as there has been some anxiety, having regard to certain proposals which were made for amalgamating battalions. I remember in the division to which I have the honour to belong two battalions had suffered very heavy casualties, and the proposal came forward that, instead of replenishing their numbers with drafts, they should be amalgamated. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that created a perfect outburst of indignation, and, in view of the outburst, the proposal was dropped; but, having regard to the attitude towards the Territorial Force, we should prefer to have some words in the Bill, although, of couse, we should regard an assurance from the right hon. Gentleman as giving some satisfaction, The other point I should like the right hon. Gentleman to clear up is this: Is it proposed that men who wish to join the Territorial Force when they are called out on permanent service should be allowed to join that Force in reality, or will they remain Regulars attached to the Territorial Force? It is a very important distinction, because if a man is merely attached to the Territorial Force he remains a Regular, attached or posted to the Territorial Force, and I should like the right hon. Gentleman to make it clear whether it is the intention of the Government to allow a man who has been enlisted in the Regular Army under this Bill really to become a Territorial—that is to say, to enlist in the Territorial Force and then to be discharged from the Army Reserve—or whether it is their intention merely to attach a man to the Territorial Force?

The life of a battalion nowadays is said to be seven months. If that is so, then, in the course of seven months, Territorials proper will become a very small number, and the Territorial Force will merely be a name to which Regulars will be attached, so that we should like an assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that it is intended to allow these men really to become members of the Territorial Force. The right hon. Gentleman may say that really does not make very much difference; that now, when all Territorials have to take the foreign service obligation, it is a mere question of name whether a man belongs to the Territorial Force or the Regular Army, and that it does not matter. I venture to say it does matter. It is of the utmost importance that the Force, as a separate Force, should be made plain, as esprit de corps is one of the factors which most of all make for fighting efficiency, and it is because the Territorial Force, I think not unreasonably, takes a pride in its record and achievements, that it wishes to maintain separate existence and individuality. It is with that object that I bring forward this new Clause.

I wish at the outset to disabuse the hon. and gallant Gentleman's mind of there being any intention or even colour, which I fear he entertains, that the Bill contains anything in the nature of, I will not say a reproach, but a want of sympathy towards the Territorial Force. That is really not so. The truth is, although under the Derby scheme and under this Bill, in order to get recruits and reinforcements for the Army, it is necessary to have one large pool, and from that pool both the Territorial Force and the Regular battalions at the front will be reinforced. It is very desirable that there should be no differentiation between the kinds and classes of soldiers placed at the service of the Crown, in order that we may have the fullest and freest choice as to where we should place them, and, if the hon. and gallant Gentleman will carry his mind back to a Bill passed by this House about a year ago, we may transfer Regular soldiers from any part of the British Army to another part, whereas with regard to the Territorial Force there was no such power granted, although he will recollect also there was a Bill introduced with that intention, but it was ultimately withdrawn. That being so, I think he will see on reflection it is highly desirable that we should place these men in the position in which we can make the greatest use of them, and, inasmuch as we could not, if they were earmarked for Territorial soldiers, put them in another corps than that to which they had enlisted, it is much better we should have the larger pool from which to draw.

The hon. and gallant Member was quite right when he said there was really very little difference between a soldier who is described as a Regular soldier and a soldier who is designated as being a Territorial soldier, because at the present moment all soldiers are serving on the attestation for the period of War, so that, at the end of the War, these difficult questions will not arise, except for those who have enlisted directly in the Territorial Force, who will, of course, be under the four years' engagement. I can assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that the difficulty of administration, if we were to accept the proposal which he has made, would be very great. I am sure he does not desire that, and I do not think there would be any corresponding advantage, whereas there is really no disadvantage in the manner in which we have elected to carry out this Bill. Therefore, I trust I may persuade the hon. and gallant Gentleman not to press his Amendment to a Division.

The hon. and gallant Member who has moved this Clause, I think, expressed a feeling which is very general throughout the Territorial Force. There has been, I do not say to a large extent, but to a certain extent, some want of appreciation of their position originally and now. In the early stages of the War I fear there was not that appreciation of their attractive power in the realm of recruiting which subsequent events have shown to be the case. A certain amount of anxiety was felt because of steps taken, not in the Force itself but outside, which did for a time tend to hamper recruiting for that Force. That is past history now, and all we who have the interests of the Territorial Force at heart desire is to see that, while we recognise present circumstances demand that the Army Council should have the right of making up units from the general pool, the special peculiarities of the Territorial Force should be retained. Many of us believe that that is the Force which, in the future, is going to be very much enlarged and very much strengthened—indeed, some of us think that possibly the whole of these New Armies might have been raised on the model of the Territorial Force with possibly even a general service obligation. I am very glad the right hon. Gentleman does not indicate that there is any lack of sympathy. There is no differentiation, but what we really want is that, if we are to get men under the Derby scheme, or under the Group system, which is the Derby scheme legalised, those men when attached shall not be merely attached, but shall be actual members of the Territorial Force. We are only asking that we shall have our fair portion of the recruits who are from now coming in, and if that can be done, and if it is thoroughly recognised on all hands that that Force has now shown its right to be maintained and have sympathy extended to it, that is all we desire. I think, therefore, my hon. and gallant Friend might withdraw the Clause under the circumstances.

I do not desire to press this Clause to a Division, and although I cannot say that I am altogether satisfied with the reply, I ask leave to withdraw my Motion.

Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 1.—(Obligation of Unmarried Men to Serve.)

(1)Every male British subject who—

( a ) on the fifteenth day of August, nineteen hundred and fifteen, was ordinarily resident in Great Britain, and had attained the age of eighteen years and had not attained the age of forty-one years; and

( b ) who on the second day of November, nineteen hundred and fifteen, was unmarried or was a widower without children dependent on him;

shall, unless within the exceptions set out in the First Schedule to this Act, and unless he has attained the age of forty-one years before the appointed date, be deemed as from the appointed date to have been duly enlisted in His Majesty's Regular Forces for general service with the Colours or in the Reserve for the period of the War, and to have been forthwith transferred to the Reserve.

(2)The Army Act (with the exception of Section ninety-six thereof, which relates to the claim of masters to apprentices) and the Reserve Forces Acts, 1882 to 1907, and any orders and regulations made thereunder, shall apply accordingly to any man who is so deemed to have been enlisted and transferred to the Reserve; and if any question arises in any legal proceeding under any of those Acts, orders, or regulations whether any man is a man who is under this Section deemed to have been enlisted and transferred to the Reserve or not, the Court may require the man to give evidence on the question, and if satisfactory evidence is not given to the contrary the man shall be deemed to have been so enlisted and transferred.

(3)Provision shall be made under Section twenty of the Reserve Forces Act, 1882, for information being obtained from men who are transferred to the Reserve under this Section as to preference for naval service, and the Admiralty shall have the first call on such men in case their services are needed for that purpose.

(4)This Section shall apply to any male British subject who since the fifteenth day of August, nineteen hundred and fifteen, has become or hereafter becomes resident and employed in Great Britain in the same manner as it applies to a male British subject who was ordinarily resident in Great Britain on the fifteenth day of August nineteen hundred and fifteen, with the substitution of the thirtieth day after he has become so resident and employed for the appointed date.

I beg to move in Sub-section (1) paragraph ( a ) to leave out the word "forty-one" and to insert instead thereof the word "thirty."

I do not know that it is necessary to offer any apology to the House for again raising a matter on the Report stage which has been discussed in Committee. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel), speaking on a previous stage of this Bill, said that this was a question which ought to be raised again on the Report stage in the Prime Minister's presence, and the Colonial Secretary, I am told, nodded assent to that proposition. I wish to raise this matter again because I can see that in placing the limit of age at forty-one the House is making a very serious departure from the pledge given by the Prime Minister. That pledge is contained in the Derby letter of the 19th November, which I again propose to read to the House: reasoning. It all depends what the area is. When you are talking of men between eighteen and forty-one, you cannot say that the limit of age distinguishing the young from the old is forty-one. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] I suggest the age of thirty as a half-way house, and I think that is a clear distinction between men of great military value and those of less military value. Of course, I would accept any figure between thirty and thirty-five if it is proposed. I wish now to show how serious the non-fulfilment of the Prime Minister's pledge becomes. The Prime Minister assured us that if the number who did not volunteer should prove to be a really negligible minority there would be no question of legislation. The gross number of men has been put down at 650,000, from which total certain deductions have been made by the Government in defiance of their pledge, and this error of treating men as young men who certainly are not young has made the number 650,000, when in all probability, if that error had not been made the number would have been very little over 400,000. By this construction of the Prime Minister's pledge you have added something like one-third to the proper number. I think the House ought to realise that it is a very great hardship to ask that a young unmarried man of thirty-five or forty should be compelled to go and fight while a married man of twenty-one, twenty-two or twenty-three should be free to stay at home and do what he likes. I do not think anybody in the country understood for one moment that unmarried men up to thirty-five or forty were to be compelled to fight while the young fellow of twenty-one and twenty-two was not to be compelled at all.

I hope that this Amendment will not be debated at any length, because it was very fully discussed in Committee. Although it has been stated that the Colonial Secretary indicated that this question might reasonably be brought up again for discussion on the Report stage, I cannot imagine a more fruitless discussion, because we shall never get any nearer. The hon. Member who moved this Amendment says that this Bill does not conform to the Prime Minister's pledge. The Prime Minister entirely differs from the hon. Member's contention, and he is probably as good a judge of his own promises and his own words as anybody else. We do not agree with the argument of the hon. Member for Hexham on this point. Of course, he is entitled to his own views, but I am sure no earthly object can possibly be served by a mere repetition of the arguments on this point across the floor of the House. We have noticed with great satisfaction, and great gratitude, that in the Amendments on the Paper, with the exception of this one, there is hardly to be found a single case where matters of importance which were fully debated and decided in Committee have been revived on the Report stage. Therefore I do not think it is unreasonable that the House should be asked to confine its attention to those questions which were not fully discussed, or in regard to which there was some doubt expressed by the Government during the Committee stage, in order that we may not reopen questions which have already been decided and in regard to which we can get no further towards an agreement than we got in the Committee stage. I am not going to reargue the question as to when a man is old or young because I think it would be fatal to do so. Neither am I going to take up the challenge made by the hon. Member whether a married man who is younger ought to go to the War before an unmarried man who is older. I think the unmarried man ought to take these responsibilities before they are allowed to fall upon the shoulders of those who have wives and children. We have deliberately put these ages into the Bill, and the Committee sustained our decision by an overwhelming majority, and therefore it would be useless again to argue this question, and it is out of no disrespect to the hon. Member for Hexham that I ask the Committee to take this course, and to reject this Amendment.

The right hon. Gentleman has said quite truly that the Amendments put down on the Report stage are not repetitions of points which were discussed at a reasonable length in Committee. My hon. Friends who are acting with me have taken that course because we are extremely anxious not to occupy public time in going over the same ground again. The only reason why this Amendment has been considered an exception to that rule is that some hon. Members say they were given most definitely to understand that the Colonial Secretary had by a motion of the head assented to this question being discussed again. Evidently that was a mistake, and though some of us still hold the opinion very strongly that a fair construction of the words would justify an Amendment of this sort, I venture to advise any hon. Friends of mine who take my view not to keep up this discussion because we have some other points which we want to raise and which I am sure the general sense of the House would be that it is right they should be raised, as long as they are raised reasonably and in good temper.

I would rather that it was negatived.

Question, "That the word 'forty-one' stand part of the Clause," put, and agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In Sub-section (1), paragraph ( b ), leave out the word "who."—[ Mr. Long. ]

I beg to move, in Subsection (1), paragraph ( b ), to leave out the words "or was a widower without children dependent on him."

This particular subject was not discussed at great length in Committee, and I wish to emphasise the point that these arrangements for including widowers, either with or without children, in this Bill formed no part of the Prime Minister's pledge. I heard every word of the speech, and I have since then read and reread many passages of it, but I have not come across the word "widower" in the whole of my researches. There was certainly no pledge given to the married men, either by the Prime Minister or by Lord Derby, that widowers would have to rally as well as unmarried men before married men were called up. Under these circumstances I would like to make an appeal to the Colonial Secretary to accept this Amendment, because we are very grateful to him that he has endeavoured throughout the Committee stage strictly to restrict the Bill to carrying out in its completeness the Prime Minister's pledge. It has been a mystery to me why the single men should be singled out for such special attention, and why single men from nineteen years of age right up to forty-one should be called upon before the young married men, say, up to twenty-five. I have tried to see why this policy should have been adopted, and I think perhaps there are two reasons. First, single men receive this treatment because they form the largest voteless section of the manhood of the country and are therefore likely to give the least trouble at the polling booths. There will be a little more trouble on that account by including the widowers, because widowers in many cases are householders and electors. The unmarried men, in the second place, have been selected because they make the cheapest soldiers. It is absurd to say that a bachelor of forty years of age is more physically fit than a married man under twenty-five years of age. He would not be as good in a cricket field, and he certainly would not be as good on the football field. I have asked questions why they should consider unmarried men make better soldiers than married men. I asked the Under-Secretary of State for War on 5th January what were the grounds for regarding unmarried men as superior to married men as members of His Majesty's Forces, and whether he would give the data which tended to show that unmarried men made better and braver soldiers than married men. The right hon. Gentleman gave me this reply:

I shall ask in a few minutes if the reasons are the same why widowers have been selected and put into this Clause? Is it because the unmarried as a whole cost less to the State than the married as a whole? I asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether the cost to the State of married men and their dependants was on the average higher than that of unmarried men and their dependants?

I think the hon. Member is now making a speech which traverses the whole principle of the Bill, and the time for that has gone by. He should limit himself now more closely to the terms of his Amendment.

If I cannot complete that question to the Financial Secretary to the War Office, and his reply, I must pass on. Are widowers included in this Bill because they can be obtained as cheaply as the bachelors? A widower without children, of course, is just as cheap, and a widower without children dependent on him can only mean that he is a widower and that he has children above sixteen years of age. Therefore widowers above thirty-six years of age with children are to be conscripted because they are as cheap as unmarried men. Let me take an illustration. There is at least one hon. Member of this House who was married at eighteen years of age—[Laughter]—and he was blessed with a couple of children by the time he was twenty years of age. [Laughter.] Supposing he were thirty-seven years of age to-day and a widower—[Laughter]—he would be without children dependent on him, and he would be conscripted under this Bill. There are cases where a young man has married, say, at twenty-four years of age, had a beautiful home, and a charming wife. [Laughter.] By and by they had a child. They lost it. By and by they had another and they lost that. Then they had another and lost it. And then he may have, lost his wife. At thirty years of age, bereaved of his children and bereaved of his wife, he is a widower and without children dependent on him, and on the top of all his domestic troubles you are going to conscript him. [Laughter.] I really do not see where the hilarity comes in. I have such constituents, and I have no doubt that other hon. Members who are laughing at these people's troubles have constituents who have gone through the same domestic tragedies. In past Sessions I have listened to appeals from the other side of the House on behalf of widows and orphans who happen to have shares in a brewery or a distillery. I am not sure whether during the present Session we have not listened to the woes of these people from the Irish Benches. The House has listened in the past to these appeals with a considerable amount of sympathy, but now when we come along and place before it the case of the widower it is received with nothing but laughter and ridicule.

I think the House has shown its opinion on the Amendment, and therefore it does not require a prolonged reply. It will suffice for me to say that the hon. Gentleman, in all his studies of this particular question, has failed to find any one of the reasons which led the Government to draw the Bill as they have done. I think the House realises, without my saying it, that the reason which led the Government to include unmarried men was that their liabilities are less, and the consequential sacrifices they have to make are less than those of married men. I may incidentally remark that if my information is correct the result of the hon. Gentleman's Amendment would be to include widowers who happen to have children in the Bill. The hon. Member has made out no substantial ground for his Amendment. He is most unfortunate in the form he has drawn it, and not more fortunate in the way he has submitted it.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), paragraph (b), leave out the word "children," and insert instead thereof the words "any child."

In Sub-section (1), after the word "unless" ["unless within the exceptions"], insert the words "he either is."

Leave out the words "and unless he" ["and unless he has attained"], and insert instead thereof the word "or".—[ Mr. King. ]

The Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for the Elland Division (Mr. Trevelyan) should, I think, come at the end of Section (2).

Yes, that will be the right place. With regard to the next Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King), that appears to me to negative Sub-section (2), which must be first omitted before these words are inserted.

I have that Amendment, but I do not think it comes in properly on Sub-section (1).

I submit that the danger against which my proposed Amendment seeks to guard is one which is implicit to Sub-section (1), and I am afraid, unless some qualification be introduced into that Sub-section, the purpose of my Amendment cannot be fulfilled.

I do not think that is so. The hon. Member's proposal, which suggests that "no person to whom this Section applies shall be employed as well in any civil trade or undertaking," would properly come in at the end of Sub-section (2).

The next Amendment standing in my name deals with the question of apprentices, but I am afraid the Government will not give in.

As the Government have been good enough to meet me on other points, I do not move.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), after the word "not" ["reserve or not"], to insert the words "this question shall be decided by a Court of Jurisdiction and."

This Amendment is designed to meet the case where a question arises in any legal proceedings whether a man is proper to have been enlisted and transferred to the Reserve. I understand that the point is being met in a Government Amendment of some length, but I should like to say this, if I had not known that the Attorney-General was wholly without guile and used the simplest words possible to express his meaning in the most direct way, I should have been disposed to suspect that there was more in the Clause than the words mean. But I am sure the right hon. and learned Gentleman will be able to convince me that it is not so, and I will content myself by asking him if the Clause, in the form in which it is now drafted, is intended to meet the point I rim raising—that paragraph ( b ) of the Government Amendment raised a new point, whether the Bill is to operate after the conclusion of the War? Perhaps I had better formally move my Amendment.

There is no ground whatever for the fears expressed by my hon. Friend that the provisions contained in the Amendment to be moved by my right hon. Friend later on—which it would be out of order for me now to discuss—have been drawn up in deference to specific criticisms uttered in the course of the Debate in Committee.

In view of the explanation, I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (2), to add the words,

"Provided that,

I am sure we are all glad that this Government Amendment has been put down. There are two points in it to which I am about to call the attention of the Attorney-General. I do not do it for the purpose of opposing this Amendment, but in order that the right hon. and learned Gentleman may consider and, if possible, make corrections in another place. My first point is that at the end of paragraph ( a ) the operative words are "that question shall be decided." What exactly is meant by deciding a question? Is the Court to punish the offence, if there has been an offence, or is it to come to a decision upon the offence and remit its decision on any point to the military tribunal? I think myself that, after the word "decided," we want some other words, such as "and the offence, if any, punishable," so that it shall be distinctly laid down that if a punishable offence has been committed the decision upon it and the actual judgment—the punishment to be inflicted—shall be remitted to the Civil Court. In regard to paragraph ( c ), I am very glad to welcome the decision that there is to be no death penalty in such cases. I think it also should be added that no penal servitude penalty shall attach. Under the Army Act, as it stands, desertion may be punished not only with death, by also with penal servitude, and I think we ought to have a distinct assurance—a statutory assurance—that not only shall the death penalty not be inflicted, but also penal servitude shall not be inflicted. I hope this point will be seriously considered by the Government.

5.0. P.M.

I should like to express my sincere thanks to the Government for paragraph ( c ), which appears in the Government's proposal in response to criticisms from this side. I rise to ask the Attorney-General a question with regard to Sub-section ( b ). There has been a general impression—it may be an entirely wrong impression—that this was an Act for the period of the War only, and that at the end of the War the Act itself was automatically to come to an end. It now appears that that impression was erroneous and that the Act will remain on the Statute Book after the conclusion of the War and that certain of the penalties will continue operative also after the conclusion of the War. In the Government Amendment under discussion the proceedings on this one specified point are limited to a period "during the continuance of the present War and a period of six months thereafter." I wish to ask the Attorney-General whether there are any other provisions in this Bill which will remain operative after the conclusion of the War, and which may therefore require a special Clause to deal with them during the progress of this discussion?

I would like to put to the Attorney-General one or two simple questions with regard to this Amendment. Before I do so I should like to add my expression of our indebtedness to the Government for having given a statutory assurance with regard to the death penalty. I want to be quite clear as to what will be the proceedings before a Civil Court, what form they will take, and how much will be included in them. Take the simple case of a man who thinks he has been wrongly included in the notice served under this Bill on the ground that he believes himself to come within the exceptions contained in the First Schedule. These will be very difficult questions to decide, and I should like to know if the Attorney-General can kindly tell us whether a case of that sort will be heard by a Court of Summary Jurisdiction, and whether there will be an appeal?

I should like to ask whether there is any warrant for the remark made by my hon. Friend (Mr. Whitehouse) that this Bill is intended to go beyond the period of the War?

As apparently no one desires to raise any further points, perhaps I had better deal with the questions put to me. The hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King) has suspected that the language employed in the concluding lines of paragraph ( a ) is unusual and may possibly conceal some undisclosed purpose. I can assure my hon. Friend that he is quite wrong on that point. The language is very ordinary. It simply means that on any such questions as those indicated in the preceding lines of paragraph ( a ) the only tribunal to deal with them is the tribunal indicated, namely, the Civil Court. This is the ordinary method of providing for that. It can only be the proceedings before a Civil Court that can result in a decision. The second point made by the hon. Member was that which dealt with the question of the death sentence. These words represent the general feeling in Committee. I suspect that the general feeling of the House will be that the Government have gone very far, certainly further than I felt myself, without direct authority, able to go on the Committee stage to meet the feeling expressed by and the views of some hon. Members with regard to the death sentence. It will be generally felt that the Government has gone as far as it can be asked to go in that respect. As to the third point, namely, the suggestion that under paragraph ( b ) the various Clauses of this Bill may be kept alive for a certain period after the War, my hon. Friend, on reflection of what actually took place, will see that the Government have dealt quite plainly with this matter. It will be remembered that the scope and effect of the Bill are conditional upon the duration of the War. On the Committee stage I was invited by the hon. Member for North Somerset, who asked me a question upon the subject, to define or to explain what was meant by the expression, "the duration of the War." I pointed out to my hon. Friend that it was quite impossible to give at this stage a statutory definition of that phrase, because it must inevitably occur in many Bills which dealt with different subjects, and in respect of which it might be necessary to say that for the purposes of Bill "A" the duration of the War meant such-and-such a period after the last shot had been fired, and that for the purposes of some other Bill it should be some further period. That did not quite satisfy some of the critics, and it was suggested that from the point of view of this Bill it ought to be possible to define some period. It was in answer to that representation that the period in this paragraph was adopted, namely, that

"no such proceedings shall be instituted except during the continuance of the present War and a period of six months, thereafter."

I hope that in these circumstances the House will not deem the provision an unreasonable one.

As I was the Member who was responsible in Committee for raising the question of the inclusion of the death penalty, I should like to add my thanks to those already expressed to the Government for the fact that they have, on consideration, agreed to meet us. I wish also to ask what is the meaning of the proposal of the Government to somewhat alter the phraseology in the Amendment on the Paper? I understand that they propose to take out the phrase "for service with the Colours" and to insert the words "for permanent service." I do not for a moment suspect the Government, but I should like to point out that the phrase "for service with the Colours" is the phrase used in many parts of the Bill, and I should like to know why it has been considered desirable to substitute for them the words "for permanent service."

So far as my memory serves me, the words which were introduced into the Amendment were the words used by the Attorney-General when speaking on the Committee stage. It was only when they came to be examined by those responsible for the drafting of the Bill that it was thought better to include them in this form. There is no secret or hidden intention in the change. The words now proposed were thought to be better phraseology.

Proposed words added to the Bill.

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (2), to insert as a new Sub-section: do, according to my honest judgment and conviction, by any means prevent the danger arising under the provisions of this Bill. The difficulty is really incidental to the very structure of the Bill. I do not myself believe that any complete security against the possibility of industrial compulsion could be provided except by entirely recasting at least the first Clause of the Bill.

In the course of the Committee stage two very sincere attempts were made from these benches to provide Amendments which would eliminate, as far as possible, this danger and difficulty. One attempt which would have done much, but which, in my estimation, would not have got rid of the difficulty, was made by the hon. Member for the Attercliffe Division (Mr. Anderson), who moved an Amendment, the effect of which would have been to have made all certificates of exemption absolute when once granted. Unfortunately, that Amendment was resisted by the Government and was rejected by the Committee I do not believe that that Amendment itself would have effectually destroyed the danger to which I refer, but it would have gone much further than the verbal Amendments accepted by the Government have gone in removing the danger. By far the most material Amendment offered from these benches was that suggested by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon) in moving his very important Amendment to Clause 1 of the Bill. I still venture to suggest that the importance of that Amendment was very imperfectly appreciated by his former colleagues. I have re-read the Prime Minister's answer to my right hon. Friend, and I am bound to say, with great seriousness, that, in my judgment, that reply of the Prime Minister betrayed an altogether imperfect appreciation of the real significance of the Amendment, an Amendment which would have given effect to the scheme to which the Prime Minister was pledged, and the only scheme that has been in the mind of the country ever since the Prime Minister's speech of 2nd November. The importance of my right hon. and learned Friend's Amendment was that it provided that all exemptions should be made before attestation or enlistment began. That was pointed out very forcibly by the hon. Member for North-West Lanarkshire (Mr. Pringle). I am bound to say that of all the proposals made in connection with the discussion of the Bill that proposal of my right hon. and learned Friend would have provided the most efficient security against this extremely serious danger to which the working classes of the country are alive at the present moment. My own Amendment falls short of a complete solution. I do not put it forward as an effectual security against the danger which we fear, but I believe if these words were inserted at this place they would do something more to reassure large numbers of the workmen of this country who are greatly in need of reassurance from the Government on this point. Something must be done to allay the widespread misgiving, which is the greatest element of disquietude I personally have in connection with the history and practical operations of this Bill. So far as I am concerned, I believe I have done more to safeguard the best interests of this country and to provide the best security for its efficient conduct of the War by resisting the present structure and proposals of the Bill than I could have done by any other course. But this feeling exists. I know, unfortunately too well, some of the areas in which it does exist. Now is the time to allay it, and, inasmuch as the Government have hastened during the last week to assure the House and the country that nothing is further from their intentions than to apply any form of industrial compulsion, I sincerely hope the Government will see its way to accept my Amendment.

I beg to second the Amendment.

I hope the Government will realise that some safeguard is necessary in their own interest. The Prime Minister, speaking to the miners' deputation on Friday last, said it was not his intention and he would be no party to industrial compulsion of any kind. He went beyond that. He said, if any words could be added, so far as he was concerned, to safeguard that, he would have no objection to their being added. These words, if accepted, do not remove the possibility of industrial compulsion from the Bill. Indeed, it is questionable whether any Bill for military service could be drafted which would remove the fear of industrial compulsion. This Amendment would most certainly do something towards the safeguarding of the position. As the Bill now stands, you are giving power to tribunals which in the main will be composed not of labour representatives, but in many cases of people hostile to labour, and unless some safeguard of this description is inserted it will be open to those people to compel workmen to go into industrial employment against their will. For that reason I hope the Government will accept the Amendment.

The Amendment, which is unfortunately in manuscript and which I have only seen a few minutes ago, raises a question which the Government believed had been satisfactorily settled on the Committee stage. [An HON. MEMBER; "Oh, no!"] I merely point to the fact that there is no printed Amendment handed in which raises the question again. This is in manuscript, therefore I was justified in expressing the opinion I did express, apart altogether from what passed then. I am saying that not by way of complaint, because I make no complaint, nor even by way of criticism. My hon. Friend who moved the Amendment, at the earliest possible moment this afternoon, was good enough to send me a manuscript copy. But I said it for this reason: The two speeches which have been delivered in support of the Amendment show themselves how serious and how difficult a question it is. So far as I know, there is no disagreement in any quarter of the House as to what we want to do. We have thought it necessary, whether rightly or wrongly, to introduce a measure of compulsion in connection with military service, but it certainly was never contemplated by the Government, and is not contemplated now, that that Bill should be used in any way to introduce compulsion into industry, and therefore it was that the Prime Minister made the statement to which this hon. Member (Mr. Thomas) has referred. That was obviously the position as regards the Government, and if any words could be introduced to make it clear we should be prepared to do it. I thought we had satisfactorily covered the question by the Amendments that the Government introduced in the Committee stage. But now comes this Amendment, and although, as we read it, it appears to be not only harmless but to convey the view that we all hold, I am afraid, and I am so advised, that it would really not be beneficial but might even be mischievous. This is a suggestion that a man who becomes automatically a soldier, and who remains in the Reserve until he is called up to the Colours, is not to be employed against his will in any civil trade or industry until he is called to the Colours. This Bill does not contemplate it so far as I know it, and I think I know it pretty well. It does not give any power to the Army or to the Government over a man or over his labour. He is absolutely free. In the earlier stages of our discussion, before we reached Committee, an hon. Member who belonged to the Labour party pointed out that that was all very well so far as it went, but that a man might be employed in some industry which was regarded as indispensable, and might, so long as he was there employed, be protected from the grip of the Army, but that if he lost his employment he would automatically come under the control of the Army and be seized as a soldier, and therefore in reality he would have industrial compulsion applied to him. We covered that ground. I think it will be admitted that all these difficulties were successfully covered and dealt with on the Committee stage.

Now we are asked to contemplate something which—I apologise for my stupidity—I find it extremely difficult to comprehend. What I want to know is when is the moment that it is anticipated that this man is going to be employed in some industry in which he does not desire to be employed? Until he is called to the Colours neither the War Office nor any other Government Department has any control over him at all. He is as free as if he had not come under the operation of this Bill. When he is called up, and when he once becomes a soldier, it is obvious that you are not going to use a soldier for civil purposes. You would not take him as a soldier if you were going to remit him to labour again. On the other hand, words of this kind, as I am advised, might actually interfere with these men being put into an ordnance factory where they might desire of their own will to go. The words are "against his will," so we are dealing, as both my hon. Friends have shown, with an extraordinarily difficult problem, upon which, curiously enough, we are all agreed, and yet we all realise the difficulty of finding exact words to meet the case. I thought it had been settled and I should deprecate on the part of the Government introducing words like these now, which might have very unsatisfactory effects and which really propose to deal with a contingency which we submit can never arise. Until they are summoned to the Colours they cannot be used in any civil industry of any kind, and after they are called to the Colours they are called up for military purposes alone, and will be employed for no other. Therefore, so far as that part of their present or future is concerned, they are protected. Then in regard to the case where a man who may be employed in civil industry now loses his employment and is temporarily not an indispensable man, that is covered by the Amendments which we have introduced. Therefore, on the whole, I hope the House will not think it necessary to accept this Amendment.

I wish to join with my hon. Friend in pressing this Amendment on the Government. I think it will be agreed that on the merits of the Amendment the right hon. Gentleman has given, for him, a singularly unconvincing reply to my hon. Friend. He complained that it had not been put down earlier, but it was actually on the Paper in the Committee stage, and although it was not moved, the right hon. Gentleman should at least have taken the trouble to consider its effect and be in a position to dispose of it. There is another reason why this has not been put down earlier. We were assured by the Colonial Secretary on the Committee stage of the Bill that Amendments for disposing of the fear of industrial compulsion would be placed upon the Paper. But they were only placed upon the Paper in time to reach hon. Members on Saturday, and, in consequence, it was impossible for those of us who are interested in this question to deal with them by way of Amendment, except by written Amendment. Of course, I quite accept the statement of the right hon. Gentleman and of the Prime Minister that this was not in the contemplation of the Government in connection with the present Bill. But I object that either the Prime Minister or the right hon. Gentleman can speak on this matter for the whole of the Government. I do not think they can. My right hon. Friend has said to-day that it was impossible for those men who are called to the Colours to be employed in civil occupations.

The point is, what can be done under this Bill? After all, the present Government is not likely to live for ever. I do not believe it will see the end of the War. There are a great many, people who are anxious that it should be got rid of as soon as possible, because they believe that only by another Government coming in are we likely to see a speedy end of the War. We are, therefore, not concerned, in considering the operation of this Bill, simply with what is the intention of the present Government or the pledges of the present Prime Minister. We are to consider what is the effect of the Clauses which we are now passing into law, and that only. We know that in every country where you have military Conscription it is possible to deal with your conscripts for industrial purposes. The Minister of Munitions, in a very celebrated speech which he made in Manchester, on 3rd June, dealing with this question of compulsion, said, "I do not desire compulsion for military purposes. We have plenty of men coming voluntarily into the Army; indeed, we have more men than we can equip. I desire compulsion for industrial purposes. The Minister of Munitions of France has none of my troubles. He has Conscription." That is a fair paraphrase of the words of the right hon. Gentleman in that speech, and when we deal with this Bill we deal with it in the light of the professions and intentions of the Minister of Munitions. A question was put in this House by the hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. G. Terrell) in regard to this particular question of the attesting of munition workers. Under the Derby scheme large numbers of munition workers were attested, and many of us were puzzled as to the reason for these attestations. We knew that these men at the present time and for many months to come could not possibly be spared for the Army, and we knew that everyone of these men who were attested was being paid 2s. 9d. This seemed an extraordinary waste of public money, and in consequence of it the hon. Member for Chippenham put this question to the Under-Secretary for War: To this question the Under-Secretary for War replied: Paper in the name of the President of the Local Government Board will, to a large extent—I do not say absolutely fully, but as fully possibly as it can be done under this Bill—meet the case of the man who is likely to be treated unfairly by his employers under the sanction of this Bill. But there is a further case, and a much bigger case, and that is, the possibility of this Bill being used for the purpose of turning all the men who are deemed to be enlisted under the Bill under military law for industrial purposes. The Amendment of my right hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon), which was proposed on Clause 1 in the Committee stage, would have effectively dealt with that question, because they were exempted under the terms of that Amendment and would not have been attested or enlisted, but under the Bill as it stands every man is to be attested or enlisted. He is consequently to be deemed a soldier, and as be is deemed to be a soldier he wilt be under the peril at any time, along with his fellows, of being placed in their industries under military law.

The Amendment which the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Sherwell) has brought forward provides that, "No person to whom this Section applies shall be employed against his will in any civil trade or industry." That, at least, would safeguard the employment of these men so attested or enlisted in their ordinary trades under military law. It seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Long) has given no reason whatever why this Amendment should be refused. It is a very small safeguard, but it seems to me to be an absolutely necessary safeguard. I am as anxious as any right hon. Gentleman who sits on the Front Bench to allay suspicion and mistrust. There is no area in the country where there is greater suspicion and greater mistrust than the area from which I come, namely, the West of Scotland. Indications of that suspicion and mistrust have been given in many ways during the past month or so. Commissions of inquiry have gone to the Clyde to investigate the grievances, and we see from this morning's newspapers that a committee of three very able men are to be sent there to make easy the dilution of labour. I trust that those gentlemen will be completely successful in their efforts, and I know of no three gentlemen who could have been more appropriately selected for the task. But if the right hon. Gentleman and the Government desire these men to have an easy task, if they desire their work to go through smoothly, one thing will contribute more than anything else towards that end, and it can be done now by accepting the Amendment which is proposed, to do away entirely or as nearly as posible with the perils of industrial conscription. I put it to the Government in their own interests and I put it to them in the interests of the efficient production of munitions of war. I believe on all these grounds that the duty rests upon the Government to do what they can to allay suspicion, and as they have now the means ready to their hands of doing it, I ask them now, as there is no reason against the Amendment, that they should accept it.

I think the appeal which is being made to the Government is one that deserves very serious consideration. We are all very anxious—and I believe that no hon. Member is more anxious than every member of the Administration—to remove from the path of this Bill every possible obstacle, and to remove every reasonable ground of suspicion. There are some suspicions which no conceivable legislation will ever remove. We are anxious, however, to remove every reasonable ground for suspicion. I submit that the difficulty which is put in the way of the Government in dealing with this Amendment is that its terms are altogether too loose and wide. It says:

"No person to whom this Section applies shall be employed against his will in any civil trade or industry."

Every man who is called up from the Reserve is, as far as his civil relationships are concerned in his employment, left as he was before. I may be wrong, but I believe that is correct. The fact that he has gone into the Reserve has not given any possible shadow of authority for any person in this world to compel him to work in any civil trade or industry. If this Amendment were changed so as to apply to the military authorities it might be worth consideration. May I suggest—I only suggest it as a possibility and I do not speak with any undue confidence—that under these words if they become law a difficulty may arise somewhat as follows: A man who is in the Reserve and who, so far as his relations with his employer are concerned, is left precisely where he was before, may be in his civil employment under a contract to work three months on a job outside this Act altogether. That man might say, "I have changed my mind about working on this job; I do not propose to go on with it."

This would prevent his employer. I do not know, but I think so. Of course, I am a stranger here, and I am speaking with great diffidence. I am afraid the words are so wide that they might raise vexatious points of law as between two persons, one employing and the other employed, as to whether these words would not enable a man in the Reserve to consider his ordinary contracts of labour at an end. I am sure my hon. Friends opposite have no desire of that sort. I do hope that some words will be arrived at which will enable the spirit of this Amendment to be adopted.

I think we shall all desire to imitate the spirit in which the right hon. Gentleman (Sir G. Reid) has made his contribution to the Debate, It is most important that the Debate on a subject such as this should not be used by any of us, however unconsciously, to inflame or alarm suspicion outside. I should like to say at once that so far as any words of mine can affect anyone, I would most earnestly beg those who feel suspicious on this subject to take at their full value—I will consider in a moment what that value is—the assurances and the undertakings that are given by the Prime Minister in this regard. Assurances given by the Prime Minister are mot the same thing as the words of an Act of Parliament, and it is quite right that we should try to make the Act of Parliament square with the assurances which were given. It would be very wrong—indeed, I believe it would be criminally wrong in the circumstances in which we stand—if the notion was to get abroad that solemn assurances as to the intentions of the Government were not to be most carefully considered. There are two quite distinct kinds of difficulty arising in this connection. One kind of difficulty connected with what is called industrial compulsion is a thing that nobody can get rid of. It is due to the fact that once you set up a system of compulsory military service, the experience of every European country, and indeed the nature of the thing involves the possibility of abuse in directions which none of us for a moment wish to encourage. No legislation and no assurances will get over that. It is better to face that as far as it goes. I then turn to the other aspect of the matter, where you really can hope to improve the situation, the position which I conceive a great many artisans and workpeople take up in this matter.

They hear what they are told by the Prime Minister and the Colonial Secretary, and I most earnestly implore them to accept what they are told, and to believe, as I most thoroughly believe, the assurances as to the intentions of the Government in this regard. They say, "That is all very well, but we know that there is a dockers' battalion in Liverpool. We know that it has been formed under the Derby scheme, and those people, though they have been voluntarily enlisted, are not in fact doing soldiers' work, but are doing ordinary dock labour. We know that there have been suggestions made that if we had compulsory military service in this country it might be used or abused for these secondary industrial purposes." We have been told that the reason why it was necessary in this country to pass a Munitions Bill—a Bill which I support and believe in, and I do not at all wish to criticise or attack—was precisely because we had not got compulsory military service in this country. I remember hearing the author of that Bill say, or reading, that he had said that the reason no Munitions Act was required in France was because there is compulsory military service in France. It is really no good imagining that you are going to get rid of that class of difficulty by pointing to what is in itself very important, namely, the assurances given, and given in all honesty, by important members of the Administration. I accept them, and I beg everybody else to accept them, and I think that they give a great guarantee in many directions against the abuse of this Bill. But when we are discusing the Clauses in Committee or on Report, we really must see if we cannot put into the Bill, as far as may be, those phrases and those protections which will remove the suspicions which no one will say are merely unreasonable suspicions. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken that you will never be able to remove unreasonable suspicions. But unreasonable suspicions will never flourish and have effect in this country. It is because at the back of the minds of some people there is a suspicion which is not in all aspects unreasonable, that this thing has got, as I think, a very serious and important bearing.

Now about these words. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. We want to see whether the words are apt words, and whether they cannot be improved. I do not really think that they constitute such a very rough phrase as has been suggested. They seem to me to be careful words, but I dare say that they might be considered and improved. For instance, it might be made quite plain that what is here referred to is the limiting of the men to do civil work under orders which they do not accept after they have been called up to the Colours. If a workman in this country refuses to carry out the work which he has undertaken to do, he has broken his contract, and may have behaved exceedingly badly. But no Court in this land can possibly compel him to do the work if he refuses to do it. Still, we do not want to encourage that, and it may be that it would be desirable to introduce words into this phrase which show that it really refers to soldiers after they have been called up. There is one further point. I do not think that these words, if they are carefully considered by the Government, will be found to interfere with the fair use of soldiers as soldiers, at all. It is perfectly clear and just that once a man goes into the Army, however he has got there, he has got to accept what is a perfectly natural and necessary set of rules, and he has got, like other people who take up his position, to obey orders, and not to discuss with the people who give the orders what he has to do. But that is quite a different thing from embodying Reservists in order that you may deal with an industrial dispute, in order that you may work an industry in a time of industrial crisis. That is a thing which the Government have told us they have not the slightest intention of doing. I am sure that what they have said is perfectly fair, but I do not think that it ought to be beyond the power of the Government, and those who advise them, to accept words of this sort which will make the Bill, in the minds of any thinking men, comply with the assurances which the Government have repeatedly given.

I have, listened with great patience to the previous Debates, and with great attention to the speech of the right hon. gentleman. The ending, I thought, was a very lame and impotent conclusion. No indication was given to the Govern- ment that if they would accept his suggestion he would withdraw his opposition to the Bill? These are the champions of liberty all round me. It was a lame and impotent conclusion, and the same thing applies to many of these points. If they are so important as the speakers seem to think, why cannot these Gentlemen say that if the concession is made they will withdraw all opposition to the Bill and give it a unanimous reading to make it a success. If they cannot say that, they are not justified in insisting that this is the one point of great importance, which, if granted, will cause all difficulties to be smoothed away. I was very glad that the right hon. Gentleman in the greater part of his speech tried to move his docile and pliant follower the hon. Member for North-West Lanark (Mr. Pringle). The hon. Member for North-West Lanark evidently has not any faith in Government assurances—of course, he has had experience of them—and he is always insisting that some Ministers were under suspicion. Why is my hon. Friend not able to accept these assurances? Because of the King Charles' head which he must drag in on an Amendment like this. The Minister of Munitions is at the present time busy in his Department, and it is asked why is he not here making speeches? I do not say that the hon. and learned Member went so far, but the last time and the time before that, and in speaking on every Amendment, he keeps on the flank of the Minister of Munitions. What is it all about? What does the Minister of Munitions care whether these few words are in or not. The safety of the Bill is in very capable hands, and he is going on with his work, perfectly unconcerned about this, and prepared to leave it to the Gentlemen who are acting for the Government.

What is the meaning of dragging him in? Reference was made to Woolwich Arsenal. It was suggested that something suspicious had cropped up, because the Minister of Munitions was approached with regard to the attesting of men at Woolwich Arsenal. The Minister of Munitions is in the position of an employer at Woolwich Arsenal. The arsenal has been placed under the Minister of Munitions. Is it suggested that there was some sort of conspiracy because the War Office consulted the Minister of Munitions about the working men at Woolwich Arsenal There is no meaning in all this, except that it shows some bias. When my hon. and learned Friend makes his statement he is very anxious to allay all suspicion, and he really desires that everything shall work harmoniously. I am thoroughly convinced that he is sincere, but his speech does not tend to produce that result. What is the use of his saying that he wants peace and harmony when he keeps attacking the Minister of Munitions, and saying that the Minister wants to conscript people for industrial purposes? Hon. Members opposite will have noticed that the speaking on this side was left to a small minority who do not at all voice the rank and file of the Liberal party. But we have felt it better that they should have their brief innings, and that they should put their points as well as they could. We have not sought to intervene in debate, but when time after time an attack is made on an absent Minister, I must be excused for rising to my feet.

We hear a curious doctrine from the bench below me, and from the two or three Members of the Labour party who proclaim here their irreconcilable opposition to industrial compulsion of any kind. Will the hon. Member for Blackburn get up and say that he is not in favour of conscripting at every possible opportunity? When hon. Members who are in favour of the nationalisation of the means of production, distribution and exchange, so that every workman should be conscripted and sent to his work, even in time of peace, at the bidding of the State, come here and profess that this is really a principle which cannot be adopted it is not convincing. Have we not industrial conscription adopted every day by the trade union members? themselves as well as by the Socialist members? I am not condemning them for it. It is not very long ago since the Miners' Federation sent a message to colliery after colliery that if the minority of workers who were not members of the union did not immediately join, then all the others would strike, and those men would have to be driven away on to the railways, which my hon. Friend looks after, or into the Army at a time when there were no handsome dependants' allowances as there are now, or they would have to go into the union, or emigrate. I am not criticising the trade unions for their action. That is not a matter of discussion now; but it is news to hear this Amendment opposed by these people on the ground of industrial compulsion when these men apply it to their fellow workers and found their organisation upon it. There is a great deal of unreality in the way in which this point is being pressed upon the Government. When hon. Friends of mine get up and say that they want to remove all suspicion, and allay all discontent, I must ask them whether they think their conduct in this House is conducive to that. I do not think it is. The opposition in the country to this Bill is dying down, and what little bit remains is founded on a misconception. Hon. Members in this House, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow was bound to admit, believe that in this Bill there is no industrial conscription. Then, when the Bill passes, why not go outside and say so, and damp down the agitation which is founded on a mistake?

What I said was that I am certain that the Prime Minister, and those who have spoken about this Bill, have no intention of using it for the purpose of industrial compulsion, but the hon. Member must not misrepresent me as saying that military compulsion does not in some degree involve industrial compulsion.

Does my right hon. Friend suggest that this Amendment is a means of allaying suspicion? Does it not seem to be really put forward to justify the mistaken criticism in which my hon. Friends have been indulging for several weeks, so that they can quote it as a proof that they were right and can say that the Government have had to alter the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman knows very well that industrial compulsion is not now inside this Bill. It is not in the mind of the Government, and therefore I feel sure that he will induce some of his Friends to be more active than they have been, during the next few weeks, in impressing that upon the public. I believe that when the plain fact is stated, that this is a military measure brought in to enable us to get our Army, and win the War, and is not complicated by these controversies, then the whole country will unanimously support it.

6.0 P.M.

The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has performed another of those useless functions which he frequently performs in the House by referring to those of us who are opposing this Bill as representing a very small minority; conversely, I presume he represents a very large majority, a majority which, I believe, so far as one is able to ascertain for the moment, consists of some thirty-two Members besides himself, who have made up their minds to get rid of the Government for the more effective prosecution of the War. I am still one of those Members of this House who do not belong to any group. [Mr. BOOTH: "Hear, hear!"] I always endeavour to approach any question from a perfectly common-sense point of view, a view which is urged by Members of the Front Bench, and which has been approved by my hon. Friend. We are told that there is no industrial conscription in this Bill. [An HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear!"] The hon. Gentleman opposite approves of that. If there was no industrial conscription in this Bill when it was printed, why have the Government gone out of their way to amend the measure in four directions to prevent it? There is an Amendment in the name of the President of the Local Government Board to add further words on that point. The Prime Minister has said quite explicitly that if there are any conditions left in the Bill which are directed toward making industrial compulsion at all possible, then, if words are suggested, the Government will consider those words and, if necessary, put them in. If that be so, surely it is within the right of Members, without being castigated by anybody else, to submit those words to the Government, and for the Government to deal with them? The reason why we have referred to the Minister of Munitions is simply this. My hon. Friend seems to think that the Minister of Munitions is a kind of "Charles's head" with certain Members of this House. I do not know what he is to the hon. Member for Pontefract, but at any rate the Minister of Munitions finds in him a warm supporter. The Minister of Munitions said that what he wanted the Bill for was industrial conscription. Another Minister on that bench, in fact it was the Colonial Secretary, dealing with this point, said from that Bench, that the men at Woolwich Arsenal were enrolled for a specific purpose, that purpose being that they were to be considered the same as members of the Army, if necessity arose. And, surely, we are not asking too much if we request someone on the Front Bench to explain what another Minister, the Under-Secretary to the War Office, meant when he said that these men were to be considered as members of the Army, if and when necessity arose. These are points which concern men outside the House, if they do not concern the hon. Member for Pontefract; many of these men never heard of the hon. Member for Pontefract, but they have heard about the conditions of this Bill, and I trust we shall have some explanation. That is why we prefer to ask these things from the Front Bench and not from the Bench in front of us.

My hon. Friend who has just sat down said that he always endeavoured to approach a question from the common-sense point of view, but while that may be so, those who listen to him may not arrive at the same conclusion. My hon. Friend asked if there was not compulsion in this Bill why we accepted a number of Amendments intended to deal with that point. I know that my hon. Friend does not mean to be unfair, but I think the House and hon. Members below the Gangway will agree with me that the attitude he has assumed is one which ought not to be adopted. We have put in Amendments, although they were absolutely unnecessary, because the Bill already covers the points sufficiently, in order to allay suspicion with regard to what was in the Bill. I am ready to admit that I have listened to this short Debate with considerable anxiety, not merely from the point of view of the amount of time we are taking, or from a desire to get on with the Bill, but from another much more important point of view. I realise quite well that if those who represent labour in this House go down to the constituencies and say, "Here is a proposal which we make to Members of the Government and they reject it," they will do an immense amount of harm, and, therefore, the effect of that will be of far more importance than any quarrel which we could have in this House to-day. It is for that reason, whether rightly or wrongly, all through these Debates, I have tried to meet every legitimate case that could be made on the ground that there is industrial compulsion in this Bill, though it is perfectly true that the Government have said that not only is there no industrial compulsion in the Bill, but they never intended that there should be, and so far as the Members of this Government are concerned nothing in the world would induce them to use any provisions brought into this Bill for that purpose. That fact was stated as plainly as words could be made to state it.

In regard to men before they join the Colours, that is to say, when they are still in the Reserve, that question is absolutely dealt with in the Bill. I am told by our legal advisers, whom I have consulted since the Debate of the House, that there is no question whatever that until the men are called to the Colours they are absolutely protected; they cannot be used for any purpose whatever. There cannot be any doubt. The point is one which I hope the House will see deals with a very small part of our Army. We have heard the reference to the Minister of Munitions and to "King Charles's head"; at all events, there is something like it in the Debates we have heard, but I can assure the House that the Minister of Munitions does not wish this Bill to apply to industrial purposes. This is the position, and I think the House will recognise it: Supposing you were to put into this Bill that men brought in under this Measure are to be treated in the way proposed, it means that you would have two forms of service in the Army; that is to say, you would find men in the same regiment coming some under one form and some under the other. I am told that the authorities of the Army look upon that with the greatest possible objection, and it seems to me, on the face of it, that there is strong ground for not making such an Amendment. Hon. Gentlemen seem to fear that the Army might be used in this country to put down strikes. Such a thing would be deplored as much by my hon. Friends on that side of the House as it would be by hon. Gentlemen on this side. I honestly believe that. We certainly do not want to put down strikes by the military. The point I put is, that if hon. Members were to insist upon putting this particular Clause into the Bill—though I quite admit it will add nothing beyond what we all intend—it would mean that they were trying to take a precaution which would not help them really, for it would deal with a very small part of the Army, while it would put one set of men on a different footing from others; therefore, on the merits, I think it would be a great pity to have this Amendment introduced into the Bill. I sincerely hope, in view of what I trust will be admitted by everyone in the House, that we have taken every possible precaution to put in the Bill the safeguards which are wanted, and, in view of the fact that we are told by the Army authorities that they have the strongest objection to different terms of service of men in the same regiment, that hon. Members will not press the Amendment.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (4).

The whole principle of this Bill is the compulsory enlistment of certain persons to whom an appeal was made by Lord Derby. This Sub-section deals with persons to whom no such appeal was ever made. I think there is a still greater objection. The Clause provides that a person becomes liable for military service if he becomes resident and employed. Employed means a person who is working; for a master, and therefore no person becomes liable who comes to this country if he does no work or works on his own account. A labourer who comes over would be liable, but a doctor or a barrister or a man working on his own account would not. I think that is a distinction which cannot possibly be maintained, and if the Sub-section is to remain I submit that the words "and employed" should be left out. The whole thing is, I think, contrary to policy. The only effect of it can be to prevent persons coming to this country who would otherwise be willing to work. We are very anxious to get as many workers as we can in this country, because, as everyone knows, civil work is in great difficulty because we have not enough workers. If you put the Sub-section into the Bill you cannot possibly increase the number of soldiers, while you may decrease the number of persons available for civil employment.

I beg to second the Amendment. There is no question of the fact that this provision is not necessary by reason of any pledge that has been given. The only point, therefore, is whether it is expedient. In Committee a considerable number of weighty objections were raised to this proposal. The hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) made a speech with reference to the position of Irish labourers who came over to this country at certain periods of the year to do work they were accustomed to do, and which it was very much to the interest of this country they should continue to do. Under this Sub-section, if a labourer is here for a number of days mentioned, he becomes subject to the Act. The Government at the time promised that the objections raised by the hon. Member for East Mayo would be considered before this stage, and that if it was found necessary to modify the provision, words would be put down to do so. I look in vain on the Order Paper for any such modification. Therefore, I think we are entitled to press for a reasoned statement in reply to the objections raised in Committee. It may he said that the provisions of the first Clause, "men resident in Great Britain for the purpose only of their education or for some other special purpose," cover the case. If that reasoning be sound, every occupation of all British subjects coming to this country is, I take it, a special purpose, but I cannot see that any adequate safeguard is provided to meet the special Irish case which was presented on Committee. I hope the Government will state how they propose to deal with the specific case of those Irishmen who come over to England and to Scotland every year for some weeks, or months it may be, to perform certain forms of labour. There is also the case of the interchange of teachers between this country and the Dominions, a system which has been in operation for some years past. A teacher from the Dominions who exchanged with an English or Scottish teacher comes within the provisions of the Bill, unless such a case is deemed to be for a "special purpose." I therefore submit that this Sub-section requires to be closely examined, so that we may not be doing injustice, not only to many individuals, but also severely crippling ourselves in the arrangement of our industrial and social life.

This Bill is founded on a pledge given by the Prime Minister, and without reopening that general question, I can only say that the pledge given on this subject is far more clear and definite than the other much discussed pledge. The words of the Prime Minister in introducing the Bill, when he came to deal with the provisions of the Bill, were as follows:

"The Bill is confined exclusively to those who are concerned in or affected by Lord Derby's scheme."

I do not know that there ever was a sentence more distinctly characteristic of the Prime Minister than that. It is clear, full, concise, complete. We who oppose the principle of this Bill must admit that very fair play has been given through Committee. So far as we are concerned, we have endeavoured to hurry the discussion. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] Certainly we have not debated any point at any length. I want to pay a compliment to the Colonial Secretary. On several occasions Amendments were proposed to enlarge the Bill, and in every case, except this one case, the right hon. Gentleman has observed the pledge of the Prime Minister, and has not allowed any widening of the Bill. This Subsection deals with any male British subject who, after the 15th August, may come to work or to reside in this Kingdom. He may come in this year, or next year, if the War lasts. How can those people be concerned in Lord Derby's scheme? They were not here. They may come from Australia or Canada, as well as Ireland. I contend that they are absolutely excluded by the pledge given by the Prime Minister. In Committee the President of the Local Government Board discussed this provision in the most friendly way. He said he would go as far as he could to meet the objections urged by the hon. Member for East Mayo. He has not been able to do so. There is one Amendment down, trying to deal with that most difficult of questions—that of residence. It is not successful, and nothing will be successful in this respect, but the leaving out of this Sub-section. I would urge upon the Government on the ground of the Prime Minister's pledge and on the ground that this will be most difficult to work in connection not only with Ireland but with the Dominions and with the Colonies, to accept the Amendment.

This Sub-section was not in the Bill in its original form, and it was inserted in Committee in order to meet what was felt to be on all hands a case that should be dealt with. If a man who has not recruited under the Derby scheme and has refused to attest, is, under this Bill, required to serve and to undertake military service, it was universally felt to be absurd that another man exactly of the same kind should be allowed to come in and take his place and be exempt altogether. Therefore the Committee, after full Debate, determined to insert this Subsection. My hon. Friend (Mr. Holt) says that these men may be essential for civil work. If that be so, then those men being industrially necessary, more necessary as workers than as soldiers, would be exempted under the Bill. The whole of the Bill is based on the assumption that we have provided machinery to exempt from its provisions persons who are needed more as workers than as soldiers. But we admit that there is force in the hon. Member's contention that as worded the Bill would apply to working men but not to men of other classes, and I think he has rendered useful service in drawing special attention to that point. If, therefore, he will with- draw the present Amendment and later on move to omit the words "and employed," the Government will be glad to accept the proposal.

I desire to appeal to the Government to reconsider this Sub-section. It is really of no use. I had put down an Amendment to limit the Sub-section, but on consideration I think it better to support the proposal to leave it out altogether. I voted for the Second Reading of the Bill, and I hope, if the Government will let me, to vote for the Third Reading. But this Subsection appears to me to be an unsightly and inconsistent excrescence, and the Bill would be greatly improved by its removal. This measure was introduced to give effect to the pledge of the Prime Minister. That pledge was based on the Derby scheme, the Derby scheme was based on the National Registration Act, and the Prime Minister's promise referred to the number of men enumerated on the 15th August of last year. The proposal of this Sub-section brings within the ambit of the Bill persons who have come to the country since the 15th August last, and, what is more surprising and even incredible, persons who may hereafter come to the country during the duration of the War. It cannot be argued that these persons came within the pledge given by the Prime Minister. They are a different class altogether, and the Prime Minister never had them in his mind at all. In these circumstances I think it is only due to consistency that the Sub-section should be omitted. Reference has been made to the hardship which may be inflicted on Irish migratory labourers. That is a case to which attention should be given. The Sub-section would apply also to our brothers from the Dominions, men who have flocked to the Colours in their tens of thousands, and many of whom have given their lives. Are we to say to our brothers from across the seas, "We recognise your courage; we are grateful for your strength; we admire your valour; but if you come here after the passing of this Bill we will entrap you and put you under a system of military conscription?" It would be discreditable to the country to suggest such a thing. We know what the voluntary principle is as applied to these men, and I will be no party to putting under a system of compulsion people who may hereafter come to this country as visitors.

It is not the desire of any of us that it should be possible for a man to come over here from Ireland or elsewhere and take the work of a man who under this Bill is taken for military service. Therefore I am unable to support the Amendment. At the same time this Sub-section when introduced in Committee was criticised by my hon. Friend the Member for East Mayo and myself on the ground that it might be held to bring in Irish migratory labourers who come over for harvest work and also for temporary work, such as that at Rosyth. The President of the Local Government Board, as always, met our objections in the most courteous manner and promised that he would have the matter reconsidered before Report and see whether some words could not be introduced to meet us. He has an Amendment on the Paper. The right hon. Member for West Islington (Mr. Lough) says that that Amendment does not satisfactorily meet the point, but he did not develop the argument. I have consulted my hon. Friend the Member for East Mayo, and, as at present advised, in our judgment the Amendment does meet the point, and we desire to thank the Government for putting it down.

I desire to accept the Home Secretary's offer, and therefore ask leave to withdraw the present Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (4), after the word "become" ["has become or hereafter becomes resident"], to insert the word "ordinarily."

What is meant by "ordinarily resident"? This is a very important point. Reference has been made to Irish migratory labourers. I understand that some have come to the West of Scotland where they are employed in munition works, and it is said that they are there simply to allow other men to go to the front. When will these men become "ordinarily resident" so as to come under this Sub-section, or will they ever become "ordinarily resident"?

The point is one of legal interpretation. The word already appears in the main operative Clause of the Bill, and all I can say is that the word in this Clause has the same meaning as it has in the other.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: Leave out the words "and employed" ["resident and employed in Great Britain"].—[ Mr. Holt. ]

I beg to move, after the word "substitution," to insert the words "in the case of a man becoming so resident after the appointed date."

The Bill provides that where a man becomes resident in this country after the 15th August the appointed date shall not apply to him, but that he shall be given thirty days after the time he becomes resident before the Bill becomes applicable. That is obviously right in the case of a man who comes here after the appointed date. But suppose he comes before the appointed date? Suppose he came at the end of last August? Obviously the Bill should not be applicable to him as from the end of last September, thirty days after his becoming resident here, but it should become applicable on the same date as is appointed for everybody else in the country at the time.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: Leave out the words "and employed" ["so resident and employed"].—[ Mr. Holt. ]

(who had given notice of the following Amendment)—At end, add the words,

"(5) But no man deemed to be enlisted under this Section shall be liable to be vaccinated without his consent"):

This Amendment raises the question of liability to vaccination on the part of a man deemed to be enlisted. I am not an anti-vaccinator, but I think this is a serious matter. I shall not press it, however, unless the Colonial Secretary will tell me that he is open to conviction on the point.

I do not move.

Clause 2.—(Certificates of Exemption.)

(1) An application may be made at any time before the appointed date to the local tribunal established under this Act by or in respect of any man for a certificate of exemption from the provisions of this Act—

( a ) on the ground that it is expedient in the national interest that he should, instead of being employed in military service, be engaged in other work in which he is habitually engaged or in which he wishes to be engaged; or

( b ) on the ground that serious hardship would ensue, if the man were called

( c ) on grounds of ill-health or infirmity; or

( d )on the ground of a conscientious objection to the undertaking of combatant service;

and the local tribunal, if they consider the grounds of the application established, shall grant such a certificate.

The local tribunal may allow an application to be made after the appointed date in any case in which it is shown to their satisfaction that the failure to make the application within the required time has arisen owing to the absence of the applicant abroad, or owing to any other cause which appears to the tribunal to afford a reasonable ground for allowing the application to be so made.

(2) Certificates of exemption from the provisions of this Act may also be granted by any Government Department, after consultation with the Army Council, to men, or classes or bodies of men, in the service or employment of that Department, or, in cases where it appears to the Department that certificates can be more conveniently granted by the Department than by the local tribunal, to men or classes or bodies of men who are employed or engaged or qualified for employment or engagement in any work which is certified by the Department to be work of national importance and whose exemption comes within the sphere of the Department.

If any question arises whether any person or body of persons is to be treated as a Government Department, or as a separate Government Department, for the purpose of this provision, or whether any exemption comes within the sphere of one Department or another, the question shall be referred to the Treasury, and the decision of the Treasury thereon shall be final for the purposes of this Section.

Where a certificate is granted by a Government Department to a class or body of men, regulations with respect to the constitution and procedure of local tribunals may provide for the grant of individual certificates to men belonging to that body or class by local tribunals in such cases and subject to such provisions as may be prescribed by the regulations.

(3) Any certificate of exemption may be absolute, conditional, or temporary, as the authority by whom it was granted think best suited to the case, and, in the case of an application on conscientious grounds, may take the form of an exemption from combatant duties only, or may be conditional on the applicant being engaged in some work which in the opinion of the local tribunal is of national importance:

Provided that a certificate granted on the ground of special financial, business, or domestic obligations shall be a conditional or temporary certificate only.

(4) Any Government Department may direct that any certificates granted by or on behalf of that Department before the appointed date as to employment on work for war purposes may be treated as certificates of exemption for the purposes of this Act.

(5) Where a certificate of exemption is destroyed, missing, or defaced, the authority by whom it was granted shall, upon the application of the man to whom it was granted and upon payment of a fee of a shilling, issue a duplicate of the certificate to him.

(6) The local tribunal shall be constituted in accordance with the provisions of the Second Schedule to this Act, and any decision of the local tribunal shall be subject to appeal as provided in that Schedule.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "or" ["by or in respect of any man"], to insert the words "on behalf or."

This is a very small Amendment in words, but it deals with an important point. The right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill told us in Committee that it would be competent for an applicant, instead of applying personally for exemption, to send some friend or agent to speak on his behalf. We were told that that would be provided for by regulations to be issued, and that power was taken in Clause 2 to make such regulations. My suggestion is, that the words as they stand, although no doubt intended to carry that out, do not in fact carry it out. The Subsection says: that these words properly cover the case of a man sending a friend to speak on his behalf. Of course, I know that an application to exempt such and such a man may be described as an application "in respect of that man." If that is so, and if that is relied upon, then you do not require the word "by"; you simply need the words that "an application may be made in respect of any man." That will cover the whole case—whether an application is made by a man, by his friend, or by an employer. In ordinary English, if I go to represent a friend in a Court I begin by saying, "I appear on behalf of so-and-so," or "I apply on behalf of so-and-so." I do not say that "I appear 'in respect of' so-and-so." It is very important that it should be made clear that this power for a man to be represented by his friend or an agent exists, because it must be remembered that this Bill will be administered by thousands of tribunals all over the country, the members of whom are not trained lawyers, and that the men who desire to seek exemption under it will number tens and scores of thousands who are not trained lawyers. I say, therefore, that it should be made beyond doubt. I suggest that besides its being made beyond doubt, it is rather important as a matter of drafting that it should be, "by or on behalf, or in respect of" any man.

I beg to second the Amendment. There is the case of the Territorials from Leicestershire who are training in Northumberland. They would have the right to appeal to the tribunal for exemption, but it would be impossible for them to come 200 or 300 miles to give notice of their intention. If this Amendment is accepted it will be quite clear that friends at home will be able to give the required notice. I hope I will be in order in saying further that I trust the Government will see that these men have the right of appeal to the local tribunal, or the tribunal of the district from which they come. Some of these men joined the Territorial Force for Home service believing that they would be able to give some little time to their father's farm or their mother's business. Since they are now liable for foreign service it is most important that they should be afforded the opportunity of stating their case before the local tribunal, the body that will well understand all the circumstances connected with the case, and they could not have that opportunity, as they are hundreds of miles away from home, unless they were permitted, on the basis of this Amendment, to do so through their friends at home who are conversant with the ground upon which they make their appeal. It will make it easy if these men have the opportunity sought, to, at any rate, state their case before the tribunal which thoroughly understands it and is thereby qualified to deal justly with their claims.

Is this Amendment necessary, and will it cover the case of bodies of persons working, say, in Red Cross work in France? Can they be appealed for as a crowd, and so be relieved from personal attendance?

This Amendment is not required. The language of the Clause is quite clear. Surely when we say a claim may be made "in respect of" a person, it is quite obvious that that does not mean by the man himself. I would appeal to the House to allow the Clause to remain as it is. There is no difference of opinion as to what we want. This has been set out on the authority of the Government draftsman, who has had much knowledge and experience in framing Bills. In respect of the point raised by the hon. Member who spoke last, undoubtedly the personal attendance of those persons to whom he referred is not required. We had to consider that, and deal with such cases. If there is any doubt at all, I shall take care that the meaning is made perfectly clear in the regulations.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, in Subsection (1), after the word "for" ["for a certificate of exemption"], to insert the words "the issue to that man of."

This Amendment raises an important point which was raised before in Committee stage and not satisfactorily dealt with. I want to ensure that the certificate of exemption, when it is issued, should be issued to the man, and that a man should not be exempted without his knowing it.

I am willing to accept the Amendment if the hon. Member will put it in this form: "issue to him of," instead of the words suggested by the hon. Member.

I beg to move, in Subsection (1), paragraph ( a ), after the word "work" ["engaged in other work"], to insert the words "whether for a specified employer or not."

This Amendment is in manuscript—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] Well, I will explain to the House later why it is in manuscript. The reason I move this Amendment is on account of the Amendment put down by the Government. This reads as follows:— his employer, clearly it must be an application by reason of the fact that he is employed by that particular person. I submit that the words which the Government propose to introduce later on may give rise to doubt. The words that I propose to insert will get rid of that doubt, and make it quite clear that application can be made by reason of that person's particular employment.

In accordance with the desire expressed, the Government on Report stage are moving to insert the Amendment read by my hon. Friend. By it the tribunals are not allowed to make any condition that in their exemption the man shall enter or remain in any particular employment with any particular firm or individual. It appears to me, and to the Government, that the Amendment moved by my hon. Friend is in flat contradiction to that of the Government.

My hon. Friend would make it read that an application may be made for the certificate of exemption to a tribunal, and that certificate should be given on the ground that the man, instead of being employed in military service, should be employed in other work, whether with a specified employer or not. That is to say, that they must, or may, under the circumstances, take into account that he is to be employed by a specified employer, and give exemption on that ground. It either means that—

Or nothing. If it means that, it is in flat contradiction to the provisions to be inserted later by the Government at the desire of hon. Members and many others, which specifically ordains that a tribunal shall not give a certificate on condition that a man shall have to remain with a specified employer.

7.0 P.M.

It very rarely happens that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary does not clearly apprehend a point. But it really seems to me that he does not understand this point, if he would excuse me for saying so. The two things are not, as he thinks, contradictory at all. I think I can point out why. The Amendment which the Government propose later, on the suggestion of some of us, is an Amendment which secures that if a man is to be excused from military service because he is otherwise employed, he is not to have put upon him the condition that he must be employed by an unnamed person. Now comes the question: Will a man who asks for exemption be required to make a good case for exemption, not because he belongs to a class of persons who as a class ought to be exempted, but because he is engaged in the employment of So-and-so? There is the obvious danger if the alteration which the Government propose is made later—and unless the alteration is made here—that tribunals will say—take the case of a clerk—"What are your grounds for seeking exemption?" He will reply, "My ground is that I am a clerk employed by So-and-so." That is the ground he might put forward. If he puts forward that ground, unless you provide that he may be exempted on putting forward that ground, there is the danger that the tribunal will say, "That is not a good ground; you must show that your employment is, in its nature, employment—whoever is employing you—such as would justify exemption." I think the hon. Member for Hexham is quite right when he says, in view of the Government Amendment later, that these words, should be introduced here. We are really all aiming to the same end. What we want to do is to secure that people who to show that they had better be engaged in other work can have their right to exemption. They ought be able to show that whether the work is work of a particular employer or work which they ought to continue, whoever employs them. There is nothing in the world inconsistent in providing for that, and later, when you give a man a certificate of exemption, you are putting upon him as a condition, under which he will forfeit his certificate, that he must always continue to work for a given person. Whatever the arguments may be for or against it, it is really a mistake to say, as the Home Secretary said, that the two things are contradictory, and I venture to think the proposal is quite right.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment made: In Sub-section (1), paragraph ( a ), after the word "engaged" ["in which he wishes to be engaged"], insert the words "or, if he is being educated or trained for any work that he should continue to be so educated or trained."—[ Mr. Long .]

I beg to move to insert as a new paragraph,

( b ) on the ground that being in partnership (which partnership commenced prior to the outbreak of the War) with his brothers or other relations, all of whom were serving with the Colours before the introduction of this Act, he is left in sole charge of their and his business interests."

This Amendment was before the House in Committee, and was withdrawn, somewhat under protest, at the request of the President of the Local Government Board. It consequently was not argued out. I am very sorry I should have to bring it forward now, and I should not be doing so if the President of the Local Government Board had not altered his Amendment, which was substituted without consulting or saying a word to any one of those who withdrew their Amendments at his request. I put this Amendment down because it seems to me to be justified by the words the Prime Minister used in this House on 5th January, and, further, although the Amendment which the President of the Local Government Board brought forward was considered by him to cover all the cases, I preferred, and do prefer, a specified and definite Amendment rather than an Amendment in fine wording which might be interpreted at any time by a tribunal according to their limited knowledge of the question or even the whim of the moment. This particular Amendment is one which, I think, meets with the approval of every Member of this House. It puts the case of men who have gone to the Colours willingly to fight for their country without being told to go, and have left behind them others to look after their interests—others reduced to one, and in the case of the one, I think, there ought to be a definite wording in the Act itself, making it impossible for any tribunal to trifle with the position, or in any way decide that it does not come within the scope of the expressed pledge the Prime Minister made in this House on 5th January. I candidly admit I do not like the general vague wording which the President of the Local Government Board at half-past one in the morning induced this House to accept. I should certainly have been loyal to the arrangement made if his action had represented to my mind the same conception of loyalty, and it is because of his departure from the arrangement that I bring this Amendment before the House.

Perhaps I may be using an expression which does not quite hit the position, but it is very near to it, because the right hon. Gentleman said that if all those who had Amendments following that of the Member for one of the Glasgow Divisions and myself would withdraw them, he would submit one that would cover the entire position, and he submitted one which was accepted as covering the entire position, but not even then without some protest from myself. When I picked tip the paper this morning, I found the one he submitted is to be altered. I will deal with that when it arises, but it is because of that that I bring this Amendment before the House to-day. I do not for a moment anticipate that the right hon. Gentleman will consider it necessary to accept it, but I have had an opportunity of expressing my opinion on the point, and, of course, he must take his own course, and do whatever he will in the matter with the all-powerful majority he has. But it certainly puts a bonâ fide case, as the Prime Minister—who is not moving much in the House with regard to this Bill—himself stated on 5th January that it should be dealt with, and it is for the President of the Local Government Board to consider whether he will accept the Amendment.

I am quite sure that if the rules had permitted, my hon. Friend would have finished the sentence in which be referred to me rather differently than he did, when he said that, of course, it was for the President of the Local Government Board to take his own course, and he might have added, "and he hanged to you!" The greater part of my hon. Friend's speech was devoted, not so much to defending this rather singular Amendment, as to bringing a certain number of charges against me, but he did it in so good-natured a way that I am sure he did not intend that any offence should be taken, and I am not going to take any. T can only assure him I am sorry if I did not consult him about this and any other Amendment, but certainly the drafting of Amendments is rather a heavy task, that it is not convenient to consult every Member in the House, or even a large number of Members, as to the precise form an Amendment is to take. My hon. Friend asked the House to exempt specifically from the operation of this Bill a partner in a business who has done a certain thing. I ask the House whether the words I have put in do not fully meet the case?

I am very sorry to break in here, but the right hon. Gentleman quite misunderstands me. I am not taking exception to the Amendment, which we all agreed to, but I am taking exception to some words which he has put down, and will come on later, and which will entirely alter the sense of the Amendment we did agree to in Committee.

Perhaps "Sufficient to the day is the evil thereof." We wall wait until we get to those words before defending them. I do not in the least know to what he refers. The particular Amendment to which I am referring is to omit the word "special," and insert "exceptional," and I cannot imagine a more exceptional case than that to which the hon. Gentleman has referred. It is really impossible for the House to face the danger of trying to devise words to provide for a special case, and to make that a basis of exemption. I believe in the words that follow every legitimate opportunity is given to meet these hard eases, but further than that it is impossible for the Government to go.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out paragraph ( b ).

This Sub-section was passed at an early hour in the morning, and it seems to me it opens the door to an enormous number of exemptions. The words "special financial" seem to me will cover anything. A man with £200 or £300 a year might easily say that his "special financial" obligations were such that if he entered the Army he would lose money and consequently he must be exempted. In the same way any man with a small business, or a large business for the matter of that, might say that the arrangements of his business were such that he would make a loss if he entered the Army, and when you come to "domestic obligations" I do not know what that might include. The Bill has been so altered and minimised that it well deserves the eulogy of the hon. Member for Gorton (Mr. Hodge), when he said it had been rendered innocuous. I am rather afraid that anything I say on this paragraph will not induce the Government to omit it, but I feel so strongly about it that I must move its omission.

I do not agree with my right hon. Friend that the Amendments justify the description which he has chosen to give. I do not quite know what he wishes. These words were put in to meet a variety of cases quoted in Committee, and, so far as I know; there was not one single Member in any quarter of the House who was prepared to say that the cases covered by these words ought to be included in the Bill, My right hon. Friend does not know what the domestic obligations are. One case was the only son of his mother not actually dependent upon him, but whose other children had gone to the War and had probably been killed. Does my right hon. Friend desire that the remaining child should be compelled to go? Another case given was one in which it was clearly established that the taking of a man under compulsion would immediately bring bankruptcy on him and his children. Does my right hon. Friend desire that particular case shall be left without any words to meet it? Those were the special cases. It has been pointed out to the Government that the word "special" is not quite satisfactory, and that the word "exceptional" is better. It is not intended to apply this provision, except in exceptional cases, where the circumstances justify special action on the part of the tribunal. I hope my right hon. Friend will be satisfied with having moved this Amendment and that whatever he may think of my reply he will be good enough not to press it to a Division.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

I beg to move, in Subsection (2), paragraph ( b ), to leave out the word "special," and to insert instead thereof the word "exceptional."

I shall be glad if my right hon. Friend will explain why he proposes to substitute the word "exceptional" for the word "special." I was one of those who had upon the Order Paper two of the hard cases to which he has referred, and I withdrew them, feeling that the words he offered really covered the cases. Now that he has put in the word "exceptional" I do not feel so sure. The cases I had in mind will be known to every Member of the House. I do not think that they are very exceptional. They are special classes of case. The case of business hardship has already been referred to, and there is the case of the only son of a widowed mother whose other children have already gone. There is the case of the surviving brother, and so forth. These are special cases, but they can hardly be described as exceptional. The real test is not the exceptional character or speciality of it. The really governing words are "serious hardship." It is serious hardship arising owing to special financial business, or domestic relations. The word "special" might really be left out. We want to make the exemption apply to those cases where serious hardship would be created, and, if hon. Members want this Bill to work quietly and smoothly, they will wish to get rid of cases of serious hardship. One objection to any compulsory system of military service is that it is so very apt to create hardship, and, if you can exempt all cases where serious hardship could be alleged, it is the course of wisdom to do so. Already the tribunals are making exemptions very strictly. Complaints have reached me already about the action of the tribunals, and I do entreat the House not to weaken this Clause, which was put in quite deliberately by the Government, by substituting the word "exceptional," which would be an encouragement to the tribunals to dwell upon that side of the case, instead of dwelling, as I think they ought to do, upon the words "serious hardship."

The hon. Gentleman does not seem to realise that the Government do not propose to interfere with the words "serious hardship," but to insert the word "exceptional" instead of the word "special."

I want the exemption to be made wherever there is serious hardship because of financial, or business, or domestic obligations. If you put in the word "exceptional," you will only exempt some of the cases of serious hardship.

The words "serious hardship" will remain, and the only question is whether the word "exceptional" is stronger than the word "special." I must say, as one who objected to the whole paragraph, that I am glad the Government have done something to strengthen the Clause. If the Clause were left as it is, I cannot imagine any human being who could not use it. I certainly hope the Government will not change their mind again on the wording of the Clause after the careful consideration which they have given to it, and will insist on the Amendment that they have upon the Order Paper.

I very much hope that the objection to this Amendment will not be pressed. It is absolutely true that in all compulsory systems—you need not limit it to compulsory systems for military service—there is great hardship. This Amendment is intended to deal with special cases connected with those who are rather better off. If you are going to say that in every case where there is hardship there is to be exemption, you will get no men at all. The sacrifice of hardship is part of the price we have to pay if we are to get the men for our Army, and without them we cannot win this War. If the argument is that you are to make the exemption so wide as to apply it broadcast I must say that I certainly had no such intention, and I must adhere to the Amendment. If I had used the word "exceptional" when I originally moved the Amendment, everybody would have accepted it. It is only when it is proposed to take out the word "special" and to put the word "exceptional" in its place that suspicion arises. It might be something special to the individual, whereas we desire that the circumstances shall be of such an exceptional character as to justify special treatment. If it is desired that the language should be made much wider than that, then there is much more reason for the Amendment being inserted.

I do not think anyone desires the language to be made wider than the language promised us in Committee. A good many of us felt at that time that the Amendment then proposed by the Government was hardly adequate to cover some of the hard cases that might arise. It therefore makes it all the more regrettable that the Government should now attempt to still further narrow down the concession which they promised us at that time. We are not asking that there should be wholesale exemption; we recognise that we cannot have that, but we are asking that the words used by the Prime Minister on the First Reading should be faithfully carried out. I was one of those who had an Amendment down asking that the only son of a widow who has not yet enlisted should have an absolute exemption under this Bill, and I venture to say that the words used by the Prime Minister entitled me to expect that an Amendment of that sort would be accepted. I will read to the House what the words were, and then I want to contrast with them what the Government is now doing. The Prime Minister said:—

"I have had brought to my notice most moving cases of mothers who have sent three or even four sons to the War. They have been either wounded, killed, or, at any rate, disabled on active service. Where there is a single unmarried son left behind, it would; of course, be a monstrous tiling if the State were to call for military service from a man in that position. He is as much entitled to exemption as any man in the Empire."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th January, 1916, col. 956.]

Yes, but does he get it under the Amendment?

The hon. Gentleman asks me if I am sure, and says that if the Amendment is carried it is still left to the tribunal. They are still governed by the words "serious hardship."

My Amendment was to give an absolute exemption to the only son of a widow, or to the only son who has not enlisted, and, considering the Prime Minister's pledge, I think it was reasonable to ask for that. I am reminded that he quoted some poem to show that no widow's son would be taken. We are entitled to ask that the Amendment given to us in exchange for the Amendment we moved should not be whittled down.

I must rise to protest. That is a most unfair and most ungenerous description of what took place. An Amendment was brought forward in Committee with the desire of meeting the criticism of hon. Gentlemen, and for an experienced Member of this House to describe it afterwards as an Amendment deliberately given in exchange is a travesty of our Parliamentary business.

I have no wish to show the heat which the right hon. Gentleman shows. My case is a perfectly plain one. I say deliberately that if a Parliamentary bargain means anything, there was a Parliamentary bargain in this case. There was an Amendment to say that widows' sons should be absolutely exempted. It had a great deal of support. In consequence of the words which were given to us by the right hon. Gentleman that Amendment was withdrawn and was not pressed to a Division, as otherwise it would have been. Therefore I do not think the right hon. Gentleman was entitled to use the language about it which he used. I am entitled to say that the Amendment put down was part of a Parliamentary agreement, and I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman and the Government should now attempt to narrow it down.

May I call attention to the extraordinary position which is taken up by the hon. Member opposite upon this Amendment. His desire in the Amendment which he put down on the Committee stage was that this Bill should deal with exceptional cases. Does he seriously mean, to say that if he had moved an Amendment dealing with a hard case, and said that he admitted it was not exceptional, that the House would have listened to that proposal for a moment? Both the hon. Member who has just spoken and the hon. Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Leif Jones) put themselves into an extraordinary position if they wish it to be understood in the country that under this Bill no man is to be taken for the service of the country if he suffers hardship. The proposal of the Government meets a hardship that may not be common to many cases.

I will quote the words on this point which the President of the Local Government Board used in reply to some modifying words suggested by a Member for one of the Divisions of Birmingham. He said:

"Perhaps the words might be changed to exceptionally serious hardship or special hardship. The words are 'serious hardship' and then we use 'special' afterwards with regard to particular circumstances, so that it does not depend only on the first distinction; it is serious hardship really owing to the special circumstances. I quite agree that the words 'evidence of exceptional circumstances' are not what we have in view, but I would rather not alter them now because they are the words of the draftsman who has greater experience than we have, and I do not like to make changes without talking them over. If these words do not meet the case we will have them altered on the Report stage."

I cannot help thinking that the inclusion of the word "exceptional" by no means carries out what was in the mind of the House, namely, that it should be special circumstances, and should not be circumstances of an exceptional nature applying to an individual person. I take it that "exceptional" as it is proposed to be put in, would mean, that it was exceptional in relation to the individual's position. What the House meant was that it should be special circumstances such as the man being the only son of a widowed mother, and so forth, special circumstances in view of the general position to the community round about, and not with regard to exceptional circumstances that might have held good in his own family.

The word "exceptional" is obviously the better word to use. It is always well to look at the whole sentence and see what the commonsense is, and that word can best be used to bring about what you are driving at. This is a Clause to make compulsory on some people that which a large number have already done voluntarily. All of them have taken hardships, and what is intended is that if you can distinguish the degree of hardship in the case of particular people from the general hardship that everybody undertakes, and all have to suffer, you may grant an exemption. Surely the best word to secure this is "exceptional," and not like the hardship which other people have volunteered to undergo. I think it is clear that the word "exceptional" better expresses our meaning.

I submit that the interpretation put upon this word by the last speaker will not hold water, and there is more in the point than appears on the surface. The House is agreed on the principle stated in regard to "special financial business or domestic obligations," and that will entitle them to exemption. The Government is willing to accept that. But while we are all agreed on the principle it has now been narrowed down to the number of cases that may transpire. If there are an exceptional number they can get it, but if there happens to be a vast number they will fail to get it. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."] If this proposal does not mean that will the right hon. Gentleman tell us so?

I respectfully submit that the word "exceptional" means particular in kind. The word "special" may also mean particular in degree, and it seems to me that what was meant was particular in degree as well as in kind, and for that reason I regret that the word "special" should go out and "exceptional" should come in.

I do not quite understand why the Government want to change "special" to "exceptional," and, if they do, I cannot understand why any- one objects to it. I asked the Government a question when they gave us this Amendment whether they would see that there was something like uniformity of decision by means of regulations, and I note that the Government have provided later in the Bill that they will give instructions to the tribunals to this effect dealing with the interpretation of these various Clauses. I cannot conceive that if you change the word "special" to "exceptional" that you will get any guarantee that the tribunal will act in one way or another. The majority of Courts I know anything about would take the words exactly as they were intended.

I hope we shall not have a long discussion about this matter, because after all it is only a question of substituting one word for another. The Government, thinking the word now in the Bill is too loose, wish to narrow it down. I do not complain that on second thoughts they think the language they first suggested is not apt. That kind of reconsideration is bound to happen sometimes, but that would not be a good reason for leaving the Bill in a wrong form. Let us take the case which many of us have had pressed upon our attention, which is undoubtedly a hard case, namely, that of the only surviving son of a widow who depends upon the young man's earnings. This is one of the cases where a clear declaration from the Government as to the sort of standard they were setting up would make a lot of difference. If my right hon. Friend was prepared to say that if you take the only surviving son of a widow dependent upon her boy's earnings and regarded that as a case that clearly ought to be exempted we should be satisfied and it would not make very much difference whether the exemption was "special" or "exceptional." I cannot help thinking that the substance of this matter would be met by such a declaration.

My right hon. and learned Friend has accurately described the view of the Government, for that is precisely the case we intend to cover. These words were put down in consequence of the speeches of those who were opposed to the Amendment we had on the Paper. I do not think there can be any doubt on this point.

I asked in Committee whether the words then proposed covered the case of a man who had invested the whole of his capital in business and would be absolutely ruined if he was immediately called out. The right hon. Gentleman said that case was covered by "special financial business obligations." I should like to know whether the alteration of these words now proposed affects that case?

May I point out that in the case of the widow's only son it would not be exceptional, because you would find any number of such cases of men who have already enlisted and are at the front now? Under these circumstances it would be open to the tribunal to say that in the case mentioned there is no exception at all.

Question, "That the word 'exception' be there inserted in the Bill," put, and agreed to.

The three next Amendments on the Paper stand in my name. They are directed to one small but important point. As the Bill stands the ground of exemption is that of serious hardship arising out of exceptional financial, business or domestic obligations. The word "obligations" is appropriately used in connection with finance or business, but "domestic obligations" will not cover a case of hardship which the Government on the Committee stage agreed to consider. My Amendments on the Paper propose that, the phrase shall be "financial or business obligations or domestic "circumstances," and adopting their sugment prefer the word "position" to "circumstance," and adopting their suggestion I move it in that form.

Further Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), paragraph ( b ), after the word "financial," insert the word "or."

After the word "business" insert the word "obligations."

Leave out the word "obligations" ["domestic obligations"], and insert the word "positions."—[ Mr. Glyn-Jones. ]

In Sub-section (1), paragraph ( b ), at the end, insert the word "or."—[ Mr. Morrell. ]

In Sub-section (1), paragraph ( c ), leave out the word "grounds," and insert instead thereof the words "the ground."—[ Mr. King. ]

I beg to move, in Subsection (2), to leave out the words "to men, or classes, or bodies of men in the service or employment of that Department."

This Sub-section deals with the granting of exemptions by Government Departments. It allows a Government Department to grant exemptions to two classes of men. First, to the employés of the Department, and secondly, to men who are employed on work certified by the Department to be of national importance. My Amendment is to leave out the first of these two heads. The Government Departments should not, I submit, be permitted to grant exemptions to their employés, as the second head, which allows an exemption to be granted on the ground that the person certified is engaged on work of national importance, is broad enough. If the work that the employés of the various Departments are doing is important enough to justify the head of the Department in certifying it as being of national importance, then these men will be exempted under the second head. The words "the employés of various Departments" are excessively wide. Take, for instance, the Department of the Office of Works, which is doing work throughout the length and breadth of the country. Men employed on these jobs are employés of the Department. For example, in my own Constituency an extensive job has been going on in connection with the repair of the cathedral, and that work has been paid for by the Office of Works. Therefore the men engaged on the work are employés for the Department. In my view such men ought not to be granted exemption at the instance of the head of that Department, and I therefore beg to move this Amendment.

I hope my hon. Friend will not press this Amendment. We discussed the point at very great length in Committee, and the Government on that occasion defended their action. It really is, I think, an essential power to put into the hands of the Government Departments. It has to be exercised in consultation with the War Office, and, in fact, it is a power which obtains at the present moment. It has been suggested the power has been abused by Government Departments. I have made it my duty to ascertain whether there is any evidence of that. I have been unable to find any evidence of any attempt on the part of any Government Depart- ment to do other than to set free the largest possible number of men. Under these circumstances I hope the House will not accept the Amendment.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

I beg to move, at the end of the first paragraph of Sub-section (2), to insert the words

"Provided that each man so exempted shall be entitled to receive from the Department a separate certificate."

This Amendment carries out in this Subsection the idea which the Government has already accepted in connection with the first Sub-section of this Clause. It is that each man to whom an exemption is granted shall have as copy of the certificate of his exemption. That has been agreed to in the case of tribunals which grant exemptions, and I hope it will be applied also in the case of Government Departments granting exemptions. It is really a consequential carrying out of a principle which the Government have already accepted.

I really could not accept the Amendment because it would not work. In some cases men do not receive the certificate from the Department direct. It has to be done through an agent; for instance, the Board of Trade would do it through another person when dealing with the mercantile marine. As a matter of fact, however, the working of this will have to be largely governed by regulations, and in the drawing up of those regulations I shall be extremely careful to adhere to the general principle of the Bill.

In those circumstances I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Further Amendments made: In the third paragraph of Sub-section (2), after the word "regulations," insert the words "made under this Act."

After the word "constitution" insert the word "functions."

In Sub-section (3), after the word "and" ["and in the case"], insert the word "also."—[ Mr. Long. ]

I beg to move, in Subsection (3), to leave out the word "local" ["the local tribunal"], and to insert, after the word "tribunal," the words "dealing with the case."

Does that mean that the case may be moved from one or other of the tribunals on the suggestion of anybody?

The words of the Clause, as they stand, are that a person can claim exemption on the ground of conscientious objection. The exemption may be conditional on the applicant being engaged in some work which, in the opinion of the local tribunal, is of national importance. The local tribunal may hold that it is not, and the applicant may wish to appeal, and it is conceivable that the appeal tribunal before which the case comes may say, "It is not a matter for us, but it is one which Parliament intended should be decided absolutely by the local tribunal." Therefore we propose to leave out the word "local" and to make the Section read, "which in the opinion of the tribunal dealing with the case is of national importance."

Might not the local tribunal refuse to deal with the case, and force a man to go to the central tribunal?

In the first Sub-section of the Clause it is provided that application may be made to the local tribunal on the ground of conscientious objection or on other grounds.

Question, "That the word "local" stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.

Words "dealing with the case" inserted in the Bill after the word "tribunal."

8.0 P.M.

I beg to move, in Subsection (3), at the end of the first paragraph, to insert the words

"Provided that when a conditional certificate is granted the condition upon which it is granted shall be stated on the certificate."

My Amendment is a very simple one, and at the same time very practical; therefore I hope the Government may see its way to accept it. It will constitute an important change, because a number of the certificates of exemption will be conditional, and it is admitted, I think, by everyone—although I do not wish to raise unnecessary suspicion—that there is a danger that these certificates may lead to undue pressure on the part of the tribunal or other persons. The best security against anything of that sort is that there should be a full and clear statement of the conditions upon which the certificate is granted, so that the holder may know exactly where he stands with regard to the tribunal, and, if necessary, may be able to take steps to get the conditions varied. It is all the more important because in Clause 3, Sub-section (2), it is laid down that

"It shall be the duty of any man holding such a certificate, if the circumstances which led to the granting of the certificate are materially changed, to give notice to the authority mentioned in the certificate that the circumstances are so changed; and if he fails without reasonable cause or excuse to do so, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds."

Unless it is clearly stated on the certificate what the conditions are a man might find himself rendered liable to a fine of £50 for failing to give a notice which he might not have thought it to be his duty to give. We may be told by the Government that they cannot accept an Amendment of this kind because they are providing in the regulations all that is required. But that answer would be hardly satisfactory in this case, because regulations of this kind may always be varied and altered, and I do think that people who are going to get these conditional exemptions, which will probably be the majority of the exemptions, are entitled to the protection of knowing exactly what are the conditions on which they are held. I therefore venture to hope that the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill will see his way to accept what is a very small but, at the same time, a practical and useful Amendment.

I am afraid that this Amendment would not fit in with this part of the Bill, although, of course, I have no objection to it in principle. I am sorry that the hon. Member (Mr. Morrell) has so little confidence in the regulations, because there are other hon. Gentlemen who sit in the same quarter who have from time to time expressed their utmost confidence that the regulations will follow the general principles laid down in this House. I have little personal knowledge on the matter and no personal feeling, but I am advised that it would be infinitely better to leave this, with certain other similar questions, to be dealt with by regulations. I hesitate not to take the advice of those who speak with much greater experience than I do on these matters. There is no difference as to our intention. There is no doubt that this will be done. Hon. Members may say, as did the hon. Member who proposed the Amendment, that if you are going to do it, why not put it in the Bill, but you can go on dealing with these questions in that way until you have the Bill ten times its present size. You might also incur the risk that by specifying certain matters you would attach all the importance to them and expose others to receiving little consideration. I have no objection to the principle and I will give an undertaking that it shall be dealt with in the regulations.

The right hon. Gentleman puts his point of view so reasonably that one is very sorry to differ from him even for a moment. I quite agree, assuming that it is in the regulations, as he has promised it should be, that the actual legal effect would be the same. But I think there is another reason for its inclusion, if he will be so kind as to consider it for a moment, because I know he will consider it candidly and fairly. I would remind him that under Clause 3, Sub-section (3), you are going to provide, that if you grant a conditional certificate to a man and the conditions under which the certificate was granted fail and do not continue any longer, then, within a certain limited time, more serious consequences will follow, and he is in fact to be deemed to be a soldier thereby. I respectfully suggest that if you are going to do that, there really is a great deal to be said for putting into the Bill the provision that those conditions should also be put in the certificate. It has to be remembered, after all, that the ordinary man does not provide himself with the regulations. I have no kind of doubt as to what the Local Government Board will do. Once they say they will do a thing they will do it. I know very well, however, from somewhat long experience, that it is twenty times more difficult to get hold of a copy of the Local Government Board Regulations than of an Act of Parliament. Any Member who might be written to by his constituents would immediately look at the Act of Parliament and find in it this provision and could ascertain the conditions upon which a man holds a certificate of exemption by merely looking at the certificate. There is something to be gained by putting this into the Bill. The right hon. Gentle- man says, quite fairly, that we cannot put everything into the Bill. That is quite true, but immediately following this he is going to put into the Bill—not the regulations—something about certificates of exemption being conditional upon this, that or the other. That is the very same subject-matter. I cannot for the life of me see—with all respect to his advisers, who nobody respects more than I do because I have had occasion to use their advice—why we could not have this in the Bill and follow it immediately by the words suggested by the right hon. Gentleman. It is not a big point, but it is an important point.

I would like to point out to the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir J. Simon) that the real danger to the man is not the question of putting the conditions upon the certificate. Under Sub-section (2) of Clause 3 what he requires to bear in mind is what were the circumstances which led to the granting of the certificate. If those circumstances have materially changed, he would be liable to a penalty if he does not give notice. That will not be met by putting the conditions into the certificate. I would say, with all respect to the intentions of the Mover of the Amendment, that it is better for the man to have a clean certificate, because his certificate is good. If circumstances have arisen to make it dangerous for him any longer to hold it out as a complete protection, then he must look to this other Clause and he will have to look not so much at the regulations as to bear in mind that he must be able to show that the circumstances in which he got the certificate are not changed. That will be properly provided for by the regulations if, as I have no doubt he will, the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill will take care that it is borne in mind in framing the regulations. A man should have the means of having it always present to his mind what were the circumstances in which the certificate was granted.

My hon. and learned Friend (Sir W. Beale), so far as I understand his argument, has strengthened the case of those who ask that these conditions should be put in the certificate itself, because he points to another Subsection in the Bill which deals with the circumstances. If I desire to ascertain the conditions of exemption on account of cer- tain people months afterwards I should know them if the conditions are stated in the certificate of exemption, but I should not know them by looking at the Bill to which I am referred by somebody else with regard to the Sub-section about circumstances.

I am not. I say that, the two are not related. I agree so thoroughly with my right hon. and learned Friend (Sir J. Simon) in his general attitude of confidence both in the Local Government Board and in the honesty of the regulations that I regret to differ at all from the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill, whose speech and way of putting it we admire so much. I am quite certain that for the sake of the people themselves—there will be numbers of such people who will come and ask for advice from anybody who is supposed to be carrying out this Bill—it would be a provision for which we should be very grateful. It would really minimise the work of carrying out the Bill if we were able to say to anybody who made inquiries that it appeared on the face of the Bill that the conditions should be stated in the certificate As the right hon. Gentleman fairly said he agrees in principle, can he not, without yielding to any hardness of heart or emotional difficulty of those who are asking for this, kindly grant this Amendment. I think he would find there will be very few other proposals to put in the Bill.

There is no difference between us as to the necessity of the statement being made. The only question is whether it should be in the Bill. I submit to the right hon. Gentleman that the guarantee of its being in the Bill would be this: That the man might change his employer, but not change the circumstances for which he got exemption. Let me give a concrete case. A man might work for one employer, but the very fact of the conditions being on his certificate might entitle him to change his employer because the circumstances would still justify his exemption.

The Amendment has been pressed upon me so successfully that I feel bound to accede to the suggestion made. The only alteration I would suggest is that I am advised that it should come as a separate Sub-section at the end of Subsection (3), and, if the suggestion meets with general approval, I will move at the end of Sub-section (3) a new Sub-section providing that "where a conditional certificate is granted the conditions on which it is granted shall be stated on the certificate."

I beg to thank the right hon. Gentleman, and to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments made: In Sub-section (3), after the word "granted" ["Provided that a certificate granted"], insert the words "on the ground of continuation of education or training or."

In Sub-section (3), leave out the word "special" ["ground of special financial, business, or domestic obligations"], and insert instead thereof the word "exceptional." After the word "financial," insert the word "or." After the word "business," insert the word "obligations." After the word "domestic," leave out the word "obligations," and insert the word "circumstances."—[ Mr. Long. ]

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (3), to add the words

"No certificate of exemption shall be conditional upon a person to whom it is granted continuing in or entering into employment under any specified employer or in any specified place or establishment."

I am obliged to my right hon. Friend and the Government for seeing their way to put these words in. They occurred to some of us, not because they would meet or solve what is called the industrial difficulty, but because they will at any rate remove what might otherwise have been a ground of anxiety and criticism in respect of the Bill.

Further Amendments made: After the words last added insert the words "where a provisional certificate is granted the conditions upon which it is granted shall be stated on the certificate."—[ Mr. Long. ]

In Sub-section (3), after "tribunal" ["The local tribunal shall be constituted"], insert the words "appeal tribunal, and central tribunal."

After the word "tribunal" ["any decision of the local tribunal"], insert the words "or appeal tribunal."

I beg to move, at end of the Clause, to add,

"(7) A local or appeal tribunal in England or Wales shall have the same power and be subject to the same obligation to state a special case for the High Court as a Court of Summary Jurisdiction, and the provisions of the Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1857, and of Section; thirty-three of the Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1879, shall with the (necessary adaptations apply accordingly.

Provided that in Section four of the first-cited Act the reference to the Attorney-General for England shall, for the purposes of such application, be construed as a reference to the Army Council."

This is a point I raised in Committee. I do not think I made the impression I expected to make. Will the right hon. Gentleman accept it?

Then I will not move.

CLAUSE 3.—(Supplemental Provisions as to Certificates of Exemption.)

(1)A certificate of exemption may be reviewed or renewed at any time by the local tribunal or the Government Department, as may be directed by regulations made under this Act with respect to the constitution and procedure of local tribunals, on the application either of the holder of the certificate or of any person generally or specially authorised for the purpose by the Army Council, and may be withdrawn or varied if the authority by whom the certificate is reviewed are of opinion that, in the circumstances of the case, the certificate should be withdrawn or varied.

(2)It shall be the duty of any man holding such a certificate, if the circumstances which led to the granting of the certificate are materially changed, to give notice to the authority mentioned in the certificate that the circumstances are so changed; and if he fails without reasonable cause or excuse to do so, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds.

(3)Where a certificate of exemption ceases to be in force owing to the withdrawal of the certificate or the failure try comply with the conditions on which the certificate was granted or the expiration, of the time for which the certificate was granted, the man to whom the certificate was granted shall, as from the expiration of two months after the date on which the certificate so ceases to be in force, be deemed to have been enlisted and trans- ferred to the Reserve in the same manner as if no such certificate had been granted unless in the meantime the man has obtained a renewal of his certificate.

(4)If for the purpose of obtaining a certificate of exemption for himself or any other person, any person makes any false statement or false representation, he shall be liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months with or without hard labour.

(5)Where an application has been made by in respect of any man for a certificate of exemption, he shall not be called up for service with the Colours until the application has been finally disposed of.

I beg to move in Sub-section (1), after the word "exemption" ["a certificate of exemption may be"], to insert the words "other than an absolute certificate."

This raises a point of some importance, and I very earnestly trust the Government will accept it. It is provided in the Bill that certificates of exemption may be either absolute, temporary or conditional. It is obvious that temporary or conditional certificates should be reviewed when the proper times arises for reviewing them, but I suggest that absolute certificates of exemption should not be subject to any further reviewing by the tribunal. An absolute certificate is granted because the tribunal has come to the conclusion, on evidence given, that the person affected should receive an absolute exemption from the operation of this Act, and no good purpose therefore is served in making an absolute certificate subject to alteration. We should get to a contradiction in terms if, after providing for an absolute certificate of exemption, a proviso is adopted subjecting these absolute certificates to being withdrawn or varied. The Bill in its present form provides ample security against any abuse of the certificate and I would especially draw attention to the fact that there is a very important ground upon which exemption may be claimed, namely, ground (b) in Clause 2, that serious hardship will ensue to the man called out for Army service owing to exceptional financial, business or domestic obligations. But in a later Clause it is provided expressly in terms that any certificate of exemption granted under this reason (b) shall be of a temporary or conditional nature only. There is no question of absolute certificates of exemption on that ground. Then I submit that if a case is made out for an absolute certificate of exemption, it is made out for all time and no good purpose would be served by attempting to review the circumstances under which that certificate is given. The needs of the case are amply met by the provision in the Bill that conditional or temporary certificates shall be so reviewed. It appears to me to be very obvious that no tribunal is going to grant a certificate of exemption unless a case has been made out for absolute exemption during the operation of this Act.

I beg to second the Amendment.

I do not understand the significance of an absolute certificate which is to come under review and is to be liable to the possibility of withdrawal. I can conceive only one circumstance or set of conditions under which an absolute certificate might be revoked. It is, of course, conceivable that an absolute certificate might be granted upon a false representation of facts, but I imagine that in practice the local tribunal would never under any circumstances confer an absolute certificate unless they were perfectly satisfied as to the facts and circumstances of the case. But I am bound to say that if absolute certificates, in common with temporary and conditional certificates, are to be liable to review and reconsideration, the meaning of words has disappeared, and I do not see the value of the word "absolute" in the Bill at all. An absolute certificate is an absolute certificate or it is something quite different, and I must sincerely hope the Government will give us some reassurance on this point by exempting the category of absolute certificate from the operation of the Clause.

I suggest to my hon. Friend that it is one thing to state upon the face of a certificate "this certificate is conditional on such and such circumstances continuing," or to say "this certificate is valid for such and such a time," and it is another thing to make a certificate which does not bear one or other of these indications not open to review under any circumstances. I can imagine the tribunal dealing with a particular case not wishing to say, "this certificate is conditional on such and such circumstances occurring," and not wishing to make a certificate temporary, and yet at the same time not desiring to give a certificate which should under no circumstances whatever be reconsidered. If what are called absolute certificates were not open to review, I think the tribunals would not grant them. They would always say, "conditional on such and such circumstances being observed." Therefore you ought not to put the tribunals in the dilemma either of stating on the face of the certificate what the conditions are or of the certificate not being open to review under any circumstances.

But there is another reason, which hon. Members may think is of greater weight, why this Amendment could not be accepted without disadvantage. It is intended, as far as possible, when the Bill comes into force, to utilise and endorse the work which has been done by the Derby tribunals, as they are called. We do not want to go over the same ground again, and power is taken in the Bill especially that the Government and Government Departments may, when dealing with such classes of men as miners or sailors or others, validate certificates which have been granted before the passing of the Act. Many of these certificates have been granted without really careful investigation, and while the Government Departments would wish to validate these certificates wholesale they would not be willing to do that if it made it impossible to review any particular certificate which after further consideration might be found to have been granted without sufficient investigation. Therefore, if these words were put in, it would really prevent the Government from doing what it is desirable to do, and what it is convenient they should do, and that is by a stroke of the pen to validate large numbers of certificates given by the Derby tribunals. That could not be done unless these certificates, although validated, were open to review in proper cases. I hope, for these reasons, my hon. Friends will not feel it necessary to press the Amendment.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "constitution" ["with respect to the constitution"], insert the word "functions"—[ Mr. Long. ]

I beg to move, in Subsection (2), to leave out the words "such a" ["holding such a certificate"], and to insert instead thereof the words "a conditional."

This is the first of a series of Amendments which will alter the character of the Sub-section. The Sub-section as it at present stands says, cate. It makes it necessary for him to be familiar with all the circumstances which led to the granting of the certificate, and it places upon him a penalty if he does not give notice if those circumstances have altered. What are the circumstances which may lead to the granting of any certificate? They may be very varied, and the circumstances which to the mind of the applicant led to the granting of the certificate may be different from the circumstances which were in the minds of the tribunal. My right hon. Friend has adopted an Amendment of the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Morrell) making it necessary to set forth the condition on the face of the certificate. As you are to have the condition set forth on the face of the certificate, and as the conditional certificate will not depend upon the existence of a particular set of circumstances, obviously if you place the obligation of giving notice upon the man, only when the condition ceases to be satisfied, you are putting him in a fair position. He knows exactly the obligation which will rest upon him. He sees the certificate and he sees the condition set forth on the face of the certificate, and he knows that when that condition ceases to be fulfilled he is under the obligation to give notice, and he knows that his default in giving notice will make him liable to this penalty. That is a definite offence with a definite penalty. As the Clause stands the offence which he may commit is an indefinite one: it is of the vaguest character. The man may not know what the circumstances are that he is to report as having changed, and yet in face of the fact that he may be in doubt as to these circumstances, you are placing a very severe penalty upon him if he fails to report any material change in the circumstances. I suggest to my right hon. Friend that the change which I am proposing is an improvement upon the Bill. It would be much more satisfactory to those who receive these certificates, and from the point of view of practical working it would considerably ease the machinery which you have to administer.

I beg to second the Amendment. It is obviously best to have a condition of this kind set out as plainly as possible, because in the classes of workmen who will apply for these certificates you have all kinds and degrees of education, and it is very much better, therefore, that the plainest way should be adopted in the setting out of the conditions. The tribunal is really the only body that can know how the circumstances vary from day to day. The workman will be at his work, working long hours, probably six or seven days a week, and will not have time to worry about circumstances changing. But he will have the conditions stated on the face of the certificate; he will know when those conditions lapse, and on that date it will be his duty to report to the tribunal. I am certain you will get more satisfaction by the adoption of this Amendment than you will by the cumbersome method suggested in the Sub-section as it stands.

I quite see the force of the contentions of my hon. Friends, and I agree that it would be convenient if this could be done. The only difficulty which stands in the way arises from the fact that I mentioned in my remarks on the last Amendment, namely, that there are a number of certificates of sorts which are now in existence, and which it may be convenient to continue as certificates for the purpose of this Act. For example, all the badges and certificates that have been given to munition workers—would they be considered conditional certificates or not?

Sub-section (4) of Clause 2 provides that

"Any Government Department may direct that any certificates granted by or on behalf of that Department before the appointed date as to employment on work for war purposes may be treated as certificates of exemption for the purposes of this Act."

Does the hon. Member say it could only apply to certificates granted by tribunals? My hon. Friend will see that if his words are put in serious inconvenience may arise with respect to all the certificates of exemption that have been granted under authority of the Ministry of Munitions before the passage of this Act. For that reason I should not like to accept my hon. Friend's Amendment now without consultation with the Ministry of Munitions and the other Departments, in order to see what the effect would be. I am sure that he is at one with the Government in not desiring to choke the working of this Act as soon as it comes into law by having to do over again a vast deal of work which has already been done. At the same time, we should not like all these certificates, on being validated, to be of less effectiveness for the purpose of this Act than those which issue afterwards. I would propose that the Government should consider the matter between now and the arrival of the Bill in another place, with a view to seeing whether any means can be devised to attain the object which my hon. Friend has in view. And in view of what I have just said, perhaps he will withdraw the Amendment now, and I will give an undertaking that the matter will be further considered before it reaches another place.

We are not prepared to hesitate unduly about the acceptance of the offer just made by the right hon. Gentleman, but I am rather inclined to think that the statement which he has made just now has rather shown the greater urgency and importance of my hon. Friend's Amendment, because it is perfectly clear that in cases such as those which have been mentioned, when connection is had with the Minister of Munitions, it may be almost impossible for the holder of the certificate to know when he has satisfied the conditions of the certificate, and I would suggest that the Home Secretary in giving this matter further consideration should also take into account the large number of workers in the country who are engaged on War work, perhaps for the last eighteen months, without their knowledge definitely that it is war work. Owing to the extreme sub-division of Government contracts, sometimes it is practically impossible for the individual worker to realise that he is engaged on Government work. I am sure that my hon. Friend is obliged to the Home Secretary for the assurance which he has given. I hope that full account may be taken of the difficulties of the case, because obviously the effort of the Government should be to give the maximum of simplicity in the arrangements for the administration of this Bill, and not to increase the difficulties of any individual holder of a certificate.

The Home Secretary is generally so clear in all his statements that I am sorry to say that there is one point in the statement which he has just made which I do not understand. He says that the badges which have been given to munition workers by the Ministry of Munitions are to be regarded as certificates of exemption.

Am I to take it that in every case where a badge is given a certificate is also given with it?

That is rather new to me, and I expect that it will be new to a great many other people. The Home Secretary did not state in his speech that the certificates which are given with badges will be considered certificates of exemption, but he spoke about the badges being considered certificates of exemption.

I should not like to be too positive on the point. I have seen the certificates which were given, and I understood that they were given with the badges as a proof that the badge belonged to the individual man. I may be wrong about that point. It only shows how necessary it is to consult the other Departments.

The statement of the Home Secretary, admitting that he is not quite certain on this point, makes it all the more important we should accept this Amendment. It is quite clear that there is some uncertainty as to the exact position, and from what I have been told by people to whom I have spoken, I am very much inclined to believe that there are many munition workers who have badges who have no accompanying certificate, and if so, and if those badges are to be regarded, in the first instance at any rate, as certificates, it is obvious that they are mere pieces of meal or something of the kind, and are in no sense personal to the men. They do not contain his name, and still less can they have stated upon them the conditions under which they were granted. We must remember that we have just accepted an Amendment by which conditional certificates will all have the conditions written upon them. If the badge is to be a certificate, it is quite obvious that that cannot be complied with. Therefore the statement of the Home Secretary himself should induce us to accept this Amendment.

May I point out to the Home Secretary, who feels the difficulties which he desires to consider, that I understood him to say that the case which most strikes him as the difficulty in the way of this Amendment is the case where the certificate is granted by or on behalf of a public Department? On the other hand, the House will observe that the Clause with which we are dealing is a Clause which makes it a criminal offence, punishable by fine, if a man fails to report when the circumstances which led to the granting of a certificate have changed. Surely the case in which it will be most difficult for the man to know when the circumstances in which the certificate is granted have changed is the case in which it is not granted on his personal application, but may be one of a class of certificates which have been secured by the intervention of a public Department, I dare say for very good reasons, but of the details of which the man will be ignorant. It is the man who finds that he is exempted by a public Department, and who does not know in detail the reasons why, who will be put in a position of difficulty if he is to be prosecuted and fined, because when the circumstances which led to the certificate being granted have changed he does not know of the fact. I do not press the point now, because when the Home Secretary is going to consider the question, that means that he will do so sincerely and thoroughly. But I do suggest that in such a case as I have mentioned surely it will be wrong to prosecute a man for not reporting when the circumstances have changed, when he probably does not know that they have changed.

In view of what the Home Secretary has said, I do not wish to press the Amendment to a Division. I hope, however, that he will bear in mind, when we are setting up a penalty, the importance of making clear what the offence is.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Further Amendments made: In Subsection (4), after the word "obtaining" ["obtaining a certificate of exemption"], leave out the words "a certificate of."

In Sub-section (5), after the word "exemption" ["a certificate of exemption"], insert the words "or for a renewal of such a certificate."—[ Mr. Long. ]

Schedules

Special Constables (Aliens)

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 3rd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

The point which I am raising, and of which I gave notice last Thursday, is the result of a reply which I received to a question which I put to the Home Secretary. The question which I asked was as follows:—

"If a man neither born nor naturalised in this country, and only recently arrived therein, was enrolled as a special constable in London without any proper inquiries being made or guarantees demanded, and that this man enrolled himself under an English name, his real name being a German one; and will he explain why the authorities, having known these facts and other suspicious circumstances for nearly two months, have taken no stronger action than to request this man to resign his position as a special constable, and still allow him to carry on business under an illegally assumed English name?"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th January, 1916, col. 594.]

I have no desire to attack this particular man, or any other person, and least of all the right hon. Gentleman who has so recently assumed the position of Home Secretary, and I exempt him from any blame in the matter. I do desire, however, to draw attention to the extraordinary and, in my opinion, culpable slackness of one Department in the Home Office, and that is the Police Department as far as their administration goes in connection with persons who either are, or may reasonably be suspected to be, enemy aliens. The story of this case is very simple, and I give it as a concrete instance to illustrate the laxity of which I complain. A man whose real name was a German name, who was distinctly Teutonic in appearance and spoke with a strong German accent which dominated an Amercan accent, walked into a recruiting office for special constables in London, volunteered to be enrolled as a special constable, and was so enrolled, although he stated that he was an American citizen. We have been told repeatedly in and out of this House that special constables must be of British birth, or, at least, have been naturalised in this country for ten years. This man had only recently arrived in the country, and he did not claim even to be a naturalised British subject. He claimed—and I believe wrongly claimed—to be an American subject, and he was enrolled without any question. So far as I can learn he was not asked for references. Nobody was asked to guarantee him. No inquiries were made, and he was not even asked to sign a declaration to the effect that he was an American citizen. He was enrolled on his simple statement. He was not even asked to swear to the truth of the statement which he made. I put a question on Thursday night to the right hon. Gentleman, and gathered from his reply that it is not the custom in enrolling any of these thousands of special constables to obtain from any of them any written declaration or any oath as to the truth of the statements which they make. The right hon. Gentleman sent me a form of declaration which has to be signed by special constables. That is simply an oath to perform the duty of special constables properly, but the man does not swear to the correctness of the description given of himself, and there is no reference in it to his nationality. This man was enrolled and performed his duties presumably as a special constable. Yet he had a very strong German accent and a name which was most distinctively German, and which could not have originated in any country but Germany. Yet he was living and trading in London under an assumed name, which was an English name, and he enrolled himself as a special constable under that false name. The attention of the police was called to these facts. One would expect that they would take some drastic steps, particularly when attention was called to the matter by question in this House, but as far as I can gather all that was done was to send to this Teutonic German gentleman a polite request that he should resign.

In reply to the hon. Member I may point out that the man in question made no false declaration. He stated quite frankly when he applied to be admitted as a special constable that he was an American citizen. No punishment could be imposed on a man who had not made a false declaration. The name under which he passed was one which he had used for fifteen years, and he did not adept it for the purpose of getting into the constabulary or in order to deceive. If, indeed, he had been a German and had not used the name he would have committed an offence, because since last November, at all events, under the Aliens' Restriction (Change of Name) Order the use was forbidden of any name other than that by which the alien was usually known at the commencement of the War. This man had been known in England for a considerable time, and in America before by the English name which he had assumed about fifteen years before, consequently there was no reason to take drastic action against this man, nor had the police any case of suspicion against him. The hon. Member has pointed out one defect on the part of the sub-department in the police system. This man ought not to have been accepted at all as a special constable. It is forbidden that aliens should be admitted, and I much regret that the commander of the division should have admitted this man, now many months ago, without further investigation, and particularly that he should have forgotten that as the man had declared himself to be an American citizen he was ineligible. That, however, cannot happen again. Now all admissions have to go to headquarters for approval, and local commanders are required definitely to satisfy themselves that the applicants have British citizenship.

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-nine minutes after Eleven o'clock.