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Commons Chamber

Volume 81: debated on Tuesday 21 March 1916

House of Commons

Tuesday, March 21, 1916

Private Business

Private Bills (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),— Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the Second Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—

Plymouth and Stonehouse Gas Bill.

South Metropolitan Gas Bill.

Ordered, That the Bills be committed.

Provisional Order Bills (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with),— Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:—

Gas Provisional Orders Bill.

Ordered, that the Bill be read a second time To-morrow.

Provisional Order Bills (No Standing Orders applicable),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, namely:—

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill.

Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time To-morrow.

City of Dublin Steam Packet Company Bill,

Aberdeen Corporation Water Order Confirmation Bill,

Read the third time, and passed.

North British Railway Bill,—"for vesting the Whiteinch Tramway in the North British Railway Company; for authorising the construction of a road diversion; for empowering the company and the Haddington County Council to acquire lands; and for other purposes," presented, and read the first time; and ordered to be read a second time.

Medical Council

Accounts presented of the General Medical Council and Branch Councils, and of the Dental Registration Fund, for 1915 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Superannuation Act, 1884

Copy presented of Treasury Minute under the Superannuation Act, 1884, dated 15th March, 1916, declaring that Frederick Whatting Robinson, Telegraphist, General Post Office, was appointed without a Civil Service Certificate through inadvertence on the part of the Head of his Department [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

National Insurance Act

Copy presented of Regulations dated 13th March, 1916, made by the National Health Insurance Joint Committee, and by the Insurance Commissioners, the Scottish Insurance Commissioners, the Irish Insurance Commissioners, and the Welsh Insurance Commissioners, entitled the National Health Insurance (Navy and Army) Consolidated Regulations, 1916 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Education (Scotland)

Copy presented of (1) an Estimate of the sums receivable by the Education (Scotland) Fund for the year 1915–16, of the expenditure therefrom under Section 16 (1) ( a )to ( f )of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1908, and of the balance available for allocation under Section 16 (2) of that Act; (2) the provisional allocation of such Balance in accordance with the terms of the Department's Minute of 28th June, 1912 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Lunacy

Paper laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House:—Return of all Sums received by the Visitors of lunatics for travelling expenses or upon any other account, from 1st January to 31st December, 1915 [by Act].

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Belgium (International Position)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can inform the House concerning the international position of Belgium; whether the Belgian Government has formally renounced the position of neutrality guaranteed by various treaties; and whether the present position of Belgium can now be fully stated?

Belgium was forced by the unprovoked aggression of one of the Powers—who had guaranteed her neutrality—to defend her territory. Great Britain, France and Russia, after previously informing their Allies, have made the following declaration to the Belgian Government:

"The Allied and Guaranteeing Powers declare that, when the time comes, the Belgian Government will be invited to participate in the peace negotiations, and that they will not cease hostilities unless Belgium is reinstated in her political and economic independence, and largely indemnified for the wrongs she has suffered. They will lend their aid to Belgium to secure her commercial and financial recovery."

This is how the matter stands at present.

I cannot give the exact date. It is of recent date—within the last few weeks. I will give the exact date if the hon. Member likes.

Opium (Export Licences)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs under what circumstances a permit has been granted by the War Trade Department to an unknown firm for the shipment of twenty-five cases of opium to Philadelphia; is he aware that a permit for a shipment was refused about a week ago to a British firm of ninety years' standing, all of whose partners but one are on active service in His Majesty's Forces at the different fronts, and that the export of opium has been prohibited because the opium might be wanted in this country; and is he aware that dissatisfaction prevails in the commercial world owing to the discrimination and favouritism that is being shown in granting licences generally?

The permit referred to in the first part of this question as having been granted was in respect of Indian opium, of which there is no shortage. The permit referred to in the second part of the question as having been refused related to Persian opium. I should explain that Indian opium is not a complete substitute for Persian opium, and, as I indicated in reply to a previous question by the hon. Member on the 1st instant, it has been found necessary during the past few months, in view of the probable requirements of our hospitals, to restrict the exportation of Persian opium somewhat closely. The question of relaxing the prohibition can be considered as soon as further substantial supplies are in sight. I can find no ground whatsoever for the imputation contained in the last part of the question.

Has any agreement been arrived at between His Majesty's Government and the United States to reduce the prohibition against the import of Indian opium because of the analysis being under the legal test?

British Prisoners of War

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has seen copies, deposited with the Prisoners' Department of the Foreign Office, of the printed books containing names of missing men and exchanged weekly between France and Germany, and has compared these with the typewritten sheets sent to Germany by Great Britain; and whether he will instruct the proper authorities to circulate these missing lists and return sheets in the same durable form as those presented by France and Germany?

I have not seen the printed books referred to. The lists of British missing are not typewritten as sug- gested by my hon. Friend, but are printed on sheets of thick paper bound or clipped together.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take occasion to look at the specimens I left with the Noble Lord in charge of the Department a fortnight ago, and he will find they are very much more suitable for passing about the camps?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the German Government has consented to allow British prisoners of war, confined in fortresses for misdemeanours, to receive parcels of food from home during their incarceration; and whether, if Germany has refused such consent, he will waive the equivalent rule for German prisoners in England, or will give instructions that such men shall receive exactly the same amount of food in quality and quantity as is given to convicted British prisoners in Germany?

I can at present add nothing to the answer which I gave to the hon. Gentleman on the 16th March.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War how soon the first batch of British invalid prisoners of war will be received into, sanatoria in Switzerland?

No, Sir, I regret that I cannot say how soon the first batch of British invalid prisoners of war will be received in the sanatoria in Switzerland.

Is it the Foreign Office or the War Office that is conducting these negotiations, and, if the Foreign Office, why should the right hon. Gentleman be put to the trouble of answering questions?

The hon. Member will realise that all such negotiations must proceed through the Foreign Office, in order to obtain the good services of the United States Government.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War why, seeing that the basis of exchange of civilian prisoners from Germany is incapability for military service, he is unable to give a guarantee that such men will be employed for home service only?

Owing to the stringent standard of incapacity laid down for the exchange of prisoners, it is improbable that any of those exchanged will ever be able to fight again either at home or abroad.

asked the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state under which Vote on the Estimates the question of the treatment of British prisoners in Germany may be properly discussed?

The treatment of British prisoners in Germany is a matter which concerns both the Foreign Office and the War Office. The question as to the appropriate Vote for discussion of any particular subject is one for determination by the Chairman.

Royal Naval Reserve

Prisoners at Groeningen

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has now received from the Dutch Government the promised explanation of the grave punishment inflicted upon sixteen men of the Royal Naval Reserve at Groeningen nearly a month ago; whether he will communicate it to the House; and is he satisfied that no further intervention by His Majesty's Government is necessary?

A report has now been received from His Majesty's Chargé d'Affaires at The Hague covering a report by Commodore Henderson, the senior British Officer interned, which shows that only four men of the Royal Naval Reserve at Groeningen served the sentences inflicted on the so-called "Follies" Troupe in connection with the recent incident. One of these four men had abstracted some furniture from a room, and others were thought to be aware of the identity of the culprit. The names of all the men belonging to the "Follies" Troupe have been erased from the Punishment Register, and the only name which now appears in that Register in connection with this incident is that of the culprit himself, who is not a member of the "Follies" Troupe, but a paid servant of theirs. I regret that I am not able to communicate the report to the House. The answer to the last part of the question is in the affirmative.

Neutral Trading With Germany

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Otto Madsen, of the Danish Chamber of Commerce, has been expelled from the Chamber for violating his pledges and attempting to smuggle a large consignment of coffee into Germany; whether the Foreign Office will see that the direct responsibility of this man is not evaded by blaming a subordinate: that the fine of double the value of the coffee is paid; and that the firm remains on the black list until the end of the war?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The question of fixing the responsibility and imposing the fine in such cases is one for the Arbitration Court of the Danish Associations to decide. I understand that Otto Madsen paid a fine equal to double the value of the goods in the highest European market, as he was held to be technically but not actually responsible for the export of the coffee. The attitude which should eventually be adopted towards Madsen's firm is still under consideration.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to whom the fines inflicted for breaches of agreement not to export to Germany from Holland and Denmark are paid over, in view of the fact that the Allies are the injured parties?

Fines imposed by the Netherlands Oversea Trust for violation of their contracts with Dutch firms are paid by the Trust into the Fund of the Royal National Relief Committee of Holland. The disposal of fines paid to the Danish Merchants' Guild and Chamber of Manufacturers is left to the discretion of those two bodies.

Contraband Committee

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has now ascertained if the official statement that there are two naval members on the Contraband Committee, or that of the hon. Member for Maidstone that there is only one is correct?

The Admiralty is represented on the Contraband Committee by Captain Longden, R.N., assisted, when necessary, by Lieutenant W. Arnold Forster, R.N.V.R.

Does Lieutenant Arnold Forster act as a representative on the Committee? He has no vote, I understand.

I have given the fact that Captain Longden is assisted, when necessary, by Lieutenant Arnold Forster, R.N.V.R. I understand that he is not considered by the Admiralty as a representative on the Committee. He is sent by the Admiralty to assist Captain Longden. I cannot say what view the other members of the Committee take.

British Subjects (Internment in Jerusalem)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will solicit the good offices of the American Embassy to obtain the release of Mrs. M'Allister and her little son, who are now interned in Jerusalem; and, if that is not possible, to solicit the services of the American Consul to transmit money to the lady and her son, the Armenian Consul at Port Said being now prohibited from rendering further assistance?

I have requested the United States Ambassador to be good enough to ask the United States Chargé d'Affaires at Constantinople to inquire into Mrs. M'Allister's case, and if necessary to advance money to her, at the same time requesting the United States Consul at Jerusalem to lend his good offices with a view to facilitating her departure, in the event of the Ottoman Authorities being now prepared to permit her to leave the country.

Nerve-Shaken Soldiers

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether since the 30th September, 1915, any change has taken place in the position of those nerve-shaken soldiers then acknowledged to be uncertifiable cases by the War Office and placed in a block of the Middlesex County Asylum at Wandsworth; and whether this block is under the same management as the rest of the asylum, which is for certified lunatics?

No, Sir; no change has taken place since the date mentioned. The block is under the management of the Army Medical Authorities, and not under the same management as the asylum.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will take steps to provide appropriate hospital treatment, as has already been done in the case of officers, for soldiers of the rank and file who have been invalided through nerve strain or shock, which treatment shall be free from association with lunacy either in special wards of base hospitals or in convalescent homes connected therewith?

Cases requiring special but not prolonged treatment are transferred to the neurological section of one of the Territorial Force general hospitals throughout the country, or to other appropriate hospitals. Severe cases requiring more prolonged treatment are transferred to the British Red Cross Hospital at Maghull, or to the Springfield War Hospital at Wandsworth. The arrangements made secure the object which my hon. Friend has in view.

Military Service

Local, Tribunals

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if the military representative for Lewisham, in his capacity as recruiting officer's deputy, is acting in accordance with his instructions when coercing a recruit by threats into improperly sending an appeal for extension of a certificate granted in Bermondsey to the Lewisham Tribunal so that this representative may have an opportunity of opposing it; and, if so, will he issue fresh instructions that this military representative shall confine himself to his own work in future?

The military representative for Lewisham, to whom reference has been made, denies the imputations contained in this question, and I do not consider that any fresh instructions are necessary.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if the military representative for Lewisham has had delegated to him by the recruiting officer functions proper to the latter, and that, in the exercise of those functions, he refuses access to himself to which recruits are entitled; and whether instructions will be issued that, if this recruiting officer's deputy has not time to carry out his duties, another person shall be appointed?

I am informed that it is not the case that the military representative for Lewisham has had extraordinary powers conferred upon him by the local recruiting officer.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will issue instructions that military representatives shall not occupy the time of tribunals by such objections as that a manager in a lubricating oil and grease makers is not a certified trade because oil is a product and not a manufactured article, as is to be raised in the case of a Bermondsey elector to be discussed in Lewisham; and if he will call the attention of such representatives to the fact that they should aim at practical decisions rather than legal finesse?

It is difficult to see exactly what point my hon. Friend's question raises. If the case he has in mind is that of which details have been laid before me, the military representative took the view that the matter was one which should be taken before the local tribunal, and in this opinion I think he was right.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War how many military representatives on the local and appeal tribunals are of military age; and whether it is proposed to enrol those that are of such age in the non-combatant corps?

I do not know of any such cases, and the latter part of the question does not therefore arise.

asked the President of the Local Government Board if he is aware that the Lewisham Tribunal have refused to forward to the appeal tribunal the appeal of a person aggrieved by the decision of the local tribunal, as specified by the last Clause of the Second Schedule of the Act; whether he will instruct that body that they have no right to refuse to forward such appeal; and will he, in the event of the appellant taking proceedings in a Civil Court to compel the observance of the provisions of the Act, make such arrangements as will cause the individual members of the tribunal to be surcharged with the costs of such legal proceedings?

I understand that the appeal in the case to which it is assumed my hon. Friend's question relates has been forwarded to the appeal tribunal.

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been drawn to the appeal dismissed by the Norfolk county appeal tribunal in respect of a woodman nineteen years of age, earning 18s. a week and the sole support of a widowed mother; whether he is aware that this woodman, who has two brothers serving with the Colours, has to perform domestic duties and even to dress and undress his mother; and, in view of his own declarations and of those of the Prime Minister, whether any steps will be taken to put this matter on a better footing?

My right hon. Friend has gone carefully into this case, which refers to an attested man. The description given in the question by no means fully represents the facts of the case. My right hon. Friend has satisfied himself that the appeal tribunal went thoroughly into all the facts, and it is to be observed that the appellant did not ask for leave to appeal to the central appeal tribunal. There seems no reason to interfere.

Canteen Employes (Exemption)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether certain canteen contractors are applying for and obtaining exemption for employés of military age; and whether there is any need for men of suitable age to be relieved from military service to do this class of work, especially in view of the resentment felt by ordinary citizens, who have to surrender their business when called up and are unable to obtain exemption of any sort?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will have an examination made of the men employed by the Canteen Mess Association and give instructions that those single men of military age who are fit for military service shall be discharged and their places filled by men who have been disabled on active service and who are physically fit to be employed in this description of work?

The Board of Control of Regimental Institutes have undertaken to act not only for those canteens which are under their direction, but also for the canteens under the direction of the Y.M.C.A., Church Army and kindred institutes with a view to the discharge of such employés as are of military age and fit for military service, and to their replacement by men unfit for service.

Students of Religious Denominations

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether students of the Baptist, Methodist, Congregational, Episcopal, and Roman Catholic denominations are exempted from service, while only fourth-year men of the United Free Church of Scotland and third-year men of the Established Church of Scotland are so exempted; and, if not, what has been done?

The model on which were based the arrangements made in respect of the students of the denominations named was notified to the authorities of the Church of Scotland and the United Free Church in order that they might suggest a form of words for an Army Council Instruction which would secure for their students equivalent treatment. The Council received a reply in which these authorities suggested the form of words which is used in the instructions finally issued on the subject. I should like to make it clear that the Army Council has made no discrimination against the United Free Church of Scotland and the Established Church of Scotland.

Is it the case that the denominations which I have named, Baptist, Methodist, Congregational, Episcopal and Roman Catholic are exempt from service?

Yes, but not in a manner different from the Church of Scotland and the United Free Church.

Is my right hon. Friend aware, as he must be, being a Scotsman, that the service in the Scottish churches is of infinitely longer duration than in the churches in England?

Men Called Up Pending Appeal

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the military authorities have any power to send a man to camp whose appeal has not been decided, as in the case of Rifleman H. G. Kemp, No. 4,986, D Company, 3/21st London Regiment, who was summoned to Woolwich on 2nd March, where he attended and, although he told Lieutenant Bykus that his appeal had not been heard, was sent to Winchester?

I am not acquainted with the details of the case mentioned. A man whose appeal has not been decided should not be drafted to any unit, but it is impossible to prevent such cases occurring, if it has not been reported to the military authorities that an appeal has been made.

Married Men Voluntarily Attested

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he will, in order to keep faith with married men who attested voluntarily at a time when they were in a reserved or certified occupation, ensure that they are not called to the Colours against their wish except upon the decision of the central tribunal, and that he will restrict the power of local tribunals in such cases to that which they possessed at the time such men attested?

The decision as to whether a voluntarily attested man can be exempted from being called up for service must rest with the local tribunal. If the claimant is not satisfied with the decision of the local tribunal he can make an appeal to the appeal tribunal, but can only appeal to the central tribunal by permission of the appeal tribunal. I am sure that these patriotic men can rely upon obtaining the same measure of justice from the local and appeal tribunals as my hon. Friend thinks they would have obtained under the Regulations previously in force.

Is it not a fact that these voluntarily attested married men were asked to attest under the condition that their case would be dealt with by the central tribunal, and under the changed arrangement have these men got to submit their cases to the local tribunal, and are they debarred from getting to the central tribunal, and will my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that the married men who voluntarily attested should be placed in exactly the same condition as they were in at the time they attested?

I do not know whether it is or is not the fact that these men when they were asked to attest were given the engagement which my lion. Friend mentions. I understand from him that that was done. But it is not possible in every case to assimilate the position of the two classes of men. I am sure we view with great sympathy my hen. Friend's question but you cannot go further than you can go.

Does my right hon. Friend suggest that the Government cannot keep faith with these married men? I feel bound to raise the question, if not by moving the Adjournment of the House, on the Adjournment.

Non-Combatant Corps

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, in selecting men for the new Non-Combatant Corps, he will take steps to ensure that a distinction is made between the men who have voluntarily enlisted and the men who have refused to enlist for service in the Army and have persistently endeavoured to obtain exemption from service; and whether he will arrange that men who have voluntarily enlisted shall be placed in a separate unit, or shall, so far as possible, be allowed to choose their regiment or corps, and may thereby be relieved from the stigma attaching to those who have endeavoured to avoid service?

I can assure my hon. and learned Friend that the Non-Combatant Corps is intended only for conscientious objectors who are liable for service under the Military Service Act.

Calling Up of Miners (Congleton)

asked the Under-Secretary for War whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that miners in the Congleton district of Cheshire are being called up under the Military Service Act, 1916; and will he state what is the position of these men, in view of the fact that they believe themselves to be subject to the decision of the special Colliery Court?

It is not intended that any man employed at a coal mine should be called up until his case has been considered by the Colliery Recruiting Court. If any such man is called up by inadvertence before his case has been so considered he should ask his employer to return the notice to the recruiting officer, with a statement that the man is employed at a coal mine and that his case has not yet been decided by the Colliery Court.

Certified Essential Trades

asked the Prime Minister if it is in accordance with the policy of the Government that such trades as shall have been certified by competent Government Departments as essential to the conduct of the War shall be unduly harassed and interfered with by the military authorities; and whether he will instruct the War Office that the raising of frivolous objections necessitating loss of time to manufacturers and tribunals should be avoided?

Stringent instructions have been issued to the military authorities that the list of certified occupations issued by the various Government Departments should be carefully watched and followed. The instructions sent out were approved by the Departments concerned. The military authorities have been instructed to carry out the spirit of the instructions as well as the letter.

How can that answer be reconciled with the answer to Question 14 given by the Under-Secretary for War?

Choice of Regiment

asked if the men enrolled under the Military Service Act, 1916, are allowed to choose the regiments in which they are to serve, while the men who attested voluntarily have to go to any regiment to which they may be sent?

Whether men are attested voluntarily or not they are given a certain choice of unit. Naturally the men who come up earlier have a more unrestricted choice, although a certain proportion of vacancies in corps like the Royal Army Medical Corps, Army Service Corps, etc., are reserved for each group of voluntarily attested men.

Widowers With Young Children

asked whether the Government have taken into consideration the case of widowers with young children who are now being called up and have to maintain a home and a person employed to look after their children and for whom the only present provision is a separation allowance at the rate of 5s. per child; and what steps they propose to take to deal with such cases?

Men so circumstanced do not by any means stand alone in having domestic expenses in excess of the regulation allowances. I fear I am not in a position to promise any exceptional concession in such cases.

Reserved Trade Claims

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether, seeing that the provisions of the Local Government Board's instructions to local tribunals (R. 48, page 7), requiring a military representative to give notice of the grounds of objection to a claim that a man is in a reserved trade, are being generally ignored, he will cause such instructions to be rendered more definite by deleting the word "may," in Section 5, line 3, and inserting "shall," if he desires to raise an objection?

The duties of the military representative are set out with sufficient clearness in the publication issued by the Director-General of Recruiting on the group and class systems, pages 38 and 39, and my right hon. Friend does not think the amendment suggested by my hon. Friend in the instructions to local tribunals is required.

Temporary Exemption

asked the President of the Local Government Board by what date an attested man who has been granted temporary exemption by the local tribunal ought to apply for an extension of the period of exemption, that is to say, ought he to apply before the expiry of the original period of exemption or upon receipt of the summons to join the Colours?

if he wishes to claim further exemption it is desirable that he should apply before the expiry of the period of exemption, but may apply any time not later than seven days after individual notice has been sent to him calling him up for service.

asked the President of the Local Government Board with regard to attested men who have been granted temporary exemption, but who, unlike men enlisted under the Military Service Act, 1916, have not two months' grace after the expiry of the period of temporary exemption, whether, in the event of these attested men applying for an extension of the period of exemption, they will not be called up until the application and any appeal shall have been decided?

A man is not liable to be called up for military service until his application, whether for an original certificate or a renewal, has been finally disposed of.

Atherstone Hunt

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the fact that the Market Bosworth tribunal has exempted all the men in the Atherstone Hunt as being employed in an indispensable occupation; and whether the same tribunal has exempted all the men employed in the indispensable occupation of agriculture in their district?

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the proceeding at the Market Bosworth Tribunal where a member objected to the waste of time involved in hearing the twaddle of conscientious objectors, and where the tribunal immediately proceeded to grant exemption to all the men employed by the Atherstone Hunt on the ground that foxhunting encouraged horse-breeding; and whether such proceedings carry out the instructions and regulations issued by the Local Government Board?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer these questions. My attention has not been drawn to the proceedings of the tribunal mentioned, and I have no information on the matter. I have little doubt that the tribunal dealt with the matter carefully and conscientiously. I am obtaining a report of what ' took place.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that under the instructions issued to the military representatives by the Director-General of Recruiting the occupation of a huntsman is the only particular trade that is specifically referred to for exemption?

I am aware of that. What I am not aware of is what the tribunal actually did in this case.

Venereal Diseases (Egypt and Salonika)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War the percentage of admission to hospital for venereal diseases of the troops in Egypt and Salonika up to the end of February?

In Egypt, during the last eight weeks, the percentage of admissions has averaged 0.09 per cent. per week. This, I understand, is equal to an average annual admission ratio of 46.8 per thousand. No figures have been received for Salonika.

Soldiers' Pay (Hospital Stoppages)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether remission of hospital stoppages is properly refused when a soldier is in hospital for a disease or sickness due to or aggravated by military service or caused or contracted while on military service and certified by the medical officer of the soldier's unit; whether the medical officer of the military hospital in which such a soldier has been treated is entitled at his discretion to refuse such remission; and on what principle, if any, is such remission of hospital stoppages refused?

In the case of illness contracted on active service or wounds received in action there is no stoppage. In other cases the matter lies within the discretion of the soldier's commanding officer, who should take into consideration the extent to which the sickness may be attributable to military service.

Public Schools Battalion

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, in the case of the Public Schools Battalions that were formed at the beginning of the war, differential treatment is now being extended to certain of these battalions, as an effect of which one battalion, now the 20th Battalion, of the Royal Fusiliers will be handicapped in respect of its members getting commissions; and whether this battalion is to be kept at the front as an ordinary fighting unit while the other battalions are to be utilised as Training Corps for Officers?

No, Sir, non-commissioned officers and men of all battalions are on the same footing as regards qualifications necessary for recommendation for commissions. The other battalions referred to are not being utilised as Officers' Training Corps.

Naval and Military Air Service

Royal Flying Corps

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, for the purposes of the accounts submitted to Parliament, he can arrange for the sums voted for the Royal Flying Corps to appear as a separate Vote, so that Members may have an opportunity of analysing and discussing the exact amount devoted to this end?

I am afraid that the fact that the Army Votes are merely token amounts invalidates this suggestion.

Naval Wing

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he has considered the advisability of appointing a naval flying man as a member of the Board of Admiralty, more especially in view of the action of the War Office in nominating a member of the Royal Flying Corps to a seat on the Army Council?

In answer to my hon. Friend, I have to say that in the case of a service so new, so rapidly growing, and of whose full possibilities no man can speak with confidence, it would be foolish to pretend that we have reached the final organisation. But the subject is too large to be dealt with by question and answer.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, for the purposes of the accounts submitted to Parliament, he can arrange for the sums voted for the Naval Air Service to appear as a separate Vote, so that Members may have an opportunity of analysing and discussing the exact amount devoted to this end?

The desirability of showing the expenditure on the Royal Naval Air Service separately in the Navy Estimates has been under discussion between the Admiralty and the Treasury, and it has now been decided that, so far as matériel is concerned. Air Service expenditure will be shown under a separate group of sub-heads in Vote 9—the Armaments Vote. The cost of personnel, works, etc., will still be dealt with under their appropriate Votes. For 1916–17, however, it is not proposed to give any detailed Estimates of the expenditure involved, the Votes presented to Parliament containing only token figures. I am afraid, therefore, it will not be possible, neither would it appear to be in the public interest, to discuss the details of actual air expenditure at the present time.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many naval captains without previous experience of aviation have been appointed to positions in the Royal Naval Air Service within the last twelve months?

Three captains have been appointed for duty with the R.N.A.S. during the last twelve months, but have not been graded in the R.N.A.S.

Major-General S. S. Long (Retirement)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he can make any statement with regard to the reasons actuating the retirement of Major-General S. S. Long?

Major-General S. S. Long resigned of his own accord. I cannot state his motives, which were personal to himself.

Soldier Marriages During War

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he can give the number of marriages among the rank and file of the British Army since the outbreak of the War, and the cost in allowances per week made to wives, widows, and children as a result of such marriages?

Wounded Soldiers

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he will consider the possibility of placing wounded soldiers returned from the front in hospitals in the counties whence they come and as near as may be practicable to their relations and thus enable the Government to practise economy in avoiding long and unnecessary railway journeys, such as sending a Surrey man to Scotland, and at the same time facilitate the relations of wounded soldiers in visiting them without encouraging the expense of long railway journeys?

Perhaps my hon. Friend will excuse me for referring him to the long answer on this point which was given on the 27th January to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Black-friars Division of Glasgow.

Army Pensions (Commutation)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether it is now a practice to allow the commutation of Army pensions; if so, will he state whether he has any information showing the number of cases where the commutation of such pensions has been followed by such pensioners being ruined and becoming a charge upon the rates; and, in view of the increase in the numbers of such pensions in the near future, will he consider the desirability of discontinuing the practice of commutation or of so modifying the conditions under which it may be sanctioned as to avoid the evil results indicated?

Commutation of soldiers' pensions has been practically suspended during the War. In any case, it is only allowed after the Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital have made full inquiries into the man's character and projects, and such information as the Commissioners have indicates that the privilege is very rarely abused. As a safeguard against entire destitution, commutation of a portion only of the pension is allowed.

Royal Field Artillery (Sergeant Samways)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is aware that Sergeant Alexander Samways, Royal Field Artillery, was billeted last month at Mrs. Woods, 9, Abercromby Avenue, High Wycombe, and fell ill there; that the military doctor was sent for and after three days said Samways was suffering from pneumonia; that, notwithstanding, no assistance, attendance, or supervision was arranged for; that there was no ambulance to take the patient to the hospital; that the doctor refused to order any conveyance or to be responsible for the same; that the matron of the hospital sent two miles at her own expense to bring the patient in to the hospital; that the patient, while at Mrs. Woods and when suffering from delirium, was allowed to go out scantily clad and run about in the wet; that the doctor had been out of practice for sixteen years and was heard to say that he knew how to deal with shirkers; if another lad had died under somewhat similar circumstances ten days previously; that the sister at the hospital said that the sergeant's life would have been saved had he been sent earlier to the hospital; and if he will inquire into the whole matter so that the sick in billets may be more carefully looked after in the future?

I have not yet received a report on this case, but I will inform the hon. Gentleman when the report reaches me.

St. Martin's Plain and Dibgate Camps (Huts)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War (1) if he can give the date when the huts on St. Martin's Plain will be finished; and if he can say whether the drains and roads both at St. Martin's Plain and Dib- gate will be finished at the same time; and (2) if he can give the date when the huts at Dibgate were commenced, when the contract was signed, and the date when they were to be finished according to the terms of the contract; if there was any penalty clause in the contract; and if he can give a date when they will be really finished?

I am making inquiries into the case, and will let my hon. Friend know the result as soon as possible.

Volunteer Training Corps

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War when the Order in Council bringing the Volunteers under the Act of 1863 will be promulgated; and, if the War Office naturally pressed with more important work is unable to formulate the rules, will he consider whether the rules could be entrusted to the Commander-in-Chief in England to draft, and that he would, to save time, submit them for approval to the War Office?

asked the Prime Minister whether, in accordance with the intention that the Volunteers should be put under the Act of 1863 and be under the supervision of Lords Lieutenant of counties, he has caused to be issued any instructions to the Lords Lieutenant to enable them to carry out this scheme; and, if he has not caused such instructions to be issued, what is the cause of the delay and when the issue of such instructions may be expected?

An Order in Council is not required. The procedure is that offers of service shall be made by lieutenants of counties for His Majesty's acceptance. Lieutenants have been invited to submit offers. Meanwhile details of the necessary regulations are being worked out by the appropriate branches of the War Office. No advantage would be gained by the adoption of the hon. Member's suggestion in the last part of the question.

Will the right hon. Gentleman indicate when these regulations will be issued, as until they are issued the Volunteers are not able to get on with the work of guarding munitions and other danger points in the country, and the whole movement is held up pending these regulations.

My hon. Friend is in rather a hurry. It requires a great deal of working out. I cannot give him the date, but no time that can be spared will be lost.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is three weeks ago since we were informed that Volunteers would be utilised under this Act, and therefore there has been a considerable amount of time already at the disposal of the Department?

We had to wait until we could hear from the Lieutenants of His Majesty in the various counties what numbers could be expected. We have not that information yet.

Are we to wait until the whole numbers are sent in before the regulations are issued?

Will my right hon. Friend hurry up these regulations to the utmost of his power, because it is certainly very detrimental to the whole movement to have it hung up as it is at present.

We are trying to get it done as fast as possible, but my hon. Friend ought not really to be in too great a hurry.

Has my right hon. Friend not a copy of the old regulations? Would they not apply?

No, I do not think it would be desirable to proceed in the same manner of procedure as we did in 1876. The War Office is a progressive institution.

Mesopotamia Campaign

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War what description of boat is used for the conveyance of wounded soldiers from Nasiriyeh, on the Euphrates, to the base hospital at Basra; and whether the garrison hospital at Nasiriyeh has sufficient supplies of instruments, medicines, and other requisite articles for the wounded and the sick?

I have no doubt that every available boat would be used, but I have received no official report on this matter. As regards the second part of the question, no demands have been made upon the War Office for instruments. I could not definitely state that there had been no shortage of instruments, medicines, etc., at Nasiriyeh without ascertaining by cable, but no report of shortage has been received.

Is the India Office or the War Office now responsible for the Mediterranean and Mesopotamia?

asked the Prime Minister how long the siege of Kutel-Amara has lasted; and what information can he give the House as to the health of the troops and the condition of the wounded under General Townshend's command?

General Townshend's column reached Kut-el-Amara on the 3rd December, 1915. On the 9th, 10th, 11th, the enemy endeavoured to capture his position by assault, but was driven off and suffered severely. Since that time the garrison has been besieged. As to the last part of the question, I am informed that no information has been received.

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the Secretary of State for India stated, in reply to a question put to him by the Member for North-East Bethnal Green in December last, that adequate forces were being despatched to Mesopotamia; and, in view of the fact that General Townshend has been besieged at Kut-el-Amara for several months, who is responsible for the failure to supply General Aylmer with sufficient troops for the relief of the British garrison?

It is undesirable to say more at present than that there has been no failure to supply the relieving force with reinforcements.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether discussion of the question of Mesopotamia can more properly take place on the Army Vote or the India Office Vote?

French Officers and Men (Distinguished Service)

asked whether the British Government is arranging through the War Office and the Admiralty for official recognition to be given to officers and men of the French army and navy who have, under distinguished circumstances, co-operated with us in this War; and whether each Department has already taken steps in this direction?

Yes, Sir; appropriate steps were taken in this direction early in the War.

Economic Conference of Allies

asked the date of the approaching economic conference at Paris between representatives of the Allies, also the names of the representatives of this country and of the Allies, and the terms of reference or subjects of discussion at the conference?

The date of the Conference of the Allies on economic subjects has not yet been fixed, nor can the programme for discussion be published at present. The President of the Board of Trade will attend the Conference as the principal representative of the British Government. The Governments of the Allies will no doubt announce the names of their representatives in due course.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will order the issue in a White Paper of the conclusions arrived at by the approaching economic Conference between representatives of the Allies at Paris?

I am not in a position to make a statement on this subject at present.

asked whether Japan will be represented at the economic Conference of the Allied Government at Paris?

Earl Kitchener's Salary

asked the Prime Minister whether the Secretary of State for War is drawing a salary of £5,000 per annum as Secretary of State for War in addition to his salary as Agent-General in Egypt; and what salary he is drawing in respect of the latter appointment?

I stated the total salary received by my Noble Friend in my answers to questions on the 8th March.

It is no definite answer to the point raised in this question, whether the total salary is what is stated in the question. Is there any payment made out of military funds at all?

I think I answered last week. The total is £6,260, I think. That is my recollection.

Peace Terms

asked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Government would be prepared to take part in a conference of all the Powers for the purpose of discussing the terms of peace and conclusion of the present War?

I must refer the hon. Member to the Prime Minister's speech in this House on 23rd February, to which he has nothing to add.

Easter Recess

asked the Prime Minister whether he is in a position to state his expectations as to the date of the adjournment over Easter, and the probable date at which the House will reassemble?

Bonus Bonds

asked the Prime Minister whether he will introduce legislation so as to enable bonus bonds to be issued to the public?

I think I have answered this question in reply to Question 45 [Sir J. D. Rees: Whether the Government proposes to introduce legislation in order to overcome any legal objections which may exist to the adoption of bonus bonds?].

Has the right hon. Gentleman answered Question 45? I am sorry I was not here.

Mr. Masterman's Salary

asked the Prime Minister, in view of the fact that it has been officially stated that the salary of the Right Honourable C. F. Masterman is paid out of public funds and that he is doing work for the Government, if he will state on what Vote his salary is charged?

I must refer the hon. Member to the answer which the Prime Minister gave to a supplementary question addressed to him by the right hon. Baronet the junior Member for the City of London on the 8th of December.

Is it not most undesirable that a public man, receiving public money, and doing public work, should be paid out of Secret Service Funds?

I believe that was the question raised at the time, and my right hon. Friend answered. I cannot go beyond what he said.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Prime Minister definitely stated that he did not know under what Vote Mr. Masterman's salary came?

Courts-Martial (Sentences)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War how many British soldiers under the age of twenty have been executed in France by sentence of court-martial?

Just as it is not in the public interest that a question like this should be asked, so it is not in the public interest that it should be answered.

Will the right hon. Gentleman cease sending these boys to the trenches, some of them as young as sixteen, when he dare not disclose their fate to the House?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the case reported in the "Clarion" newspaper of the 17th March of a sentence of twelve months' imprisonment with hard labour on a private soldier; and whether he will have inquiries made as to whether there has been a miscarriage of justice in this case?

I cannot, I fear, claim that I am a constant reader of the "Clarion" newspaper. If the hon. Gentleman wishes me to have inquiries made, perhaps he will be good enough to state the name, regimental number and regiment of the soldier in question.

Court of Inquiry (2nd Lieutenant Plummer)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he has decided to take further action in the matter of the assault by 2nd Lieutenant Plummer at Aberlour; and whether, if a military Court of Inquiry has been ordered, the reference will include investigation of the circumstances connected with the suppression of civil proceedings, which has been commenced by authority of the officer commanding at Aberdeen?

The General Officer Commanding-in-Chief the Scottish Command has been requested to assemble a Court of Inquiry to investigate the case. The Court will be presided over by an officer of rank not under that of brigadier-general; the evidence is to be taken on oath and the Press will be admitted to the proceedings. The Court are required to investigate the whole case and the question whether 2nd Lieutenant Plummer gave money to Charles Stuart to suppress further proceedings has been specifically put to the Court.

The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the whole of my question, whether the reference to this Court of Inquiry will include the action of the superior officer in command at Aberdeen in suppressing these civil proceedings in which the police were ready to co-operate?

I do not think so, but perhaps the hon. Member will put the question again.

Nerve Shock

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether any sum is being paid or has been paid since last May by the War Office to asylum authorities, or to the Lunacy Board of Control in respect of the care and treatment of uncertifiable soldiers invalided through nerve shock?

The War Office is directly and solely responsible for the care and treatment of such soldiers. Any payments that may be made to the asylum authorities or board of control in this connection are made to them as agents of the local military authorities.

Naval and Military Services

Pensions and Grants

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that No. 4,137, Private W. Colbourne, 6th Battalion Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment, was killed by a military motor car whilst returning to camp; that a pension has been denied the widow; and will he take the necessary steps for obtaining some financial assistance in this and other cases for widows and children of soldiers overtaken by accident?

The official information is that this soldier was knocked down by a private vehicle under circumstances which do not enable a widow's pension to be granted from Army funds. Such cases are referred by the War Office to the Statutory Committee and the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association, and this case has been so dealt with.

asked what steps have been taken to supplement the grant of 5s. per week at present paid to Miss Ellie Grady, who was entirely dependent on her brother, Private Denis Grady, No. 4,230, Royal Munster Fusiliers, who was killed on 9th May, 1915?

The case has been represented to the Statutory Committee of the Royal Patriotic Fund Corporation.

asked why no pension has been, or is being paid, to John Hanly, 3rd Connaught Rangers, No. 3,588; shoulder shattered at Ypres; prisoner in Germany for five months; discharged from Army with good character on account of incapacity from wound; now at home in Ireland with his wife and three children, ages one, two, and four years; incapable of work and living on charity; what pension he is entitled to; and when it will be paid?

This case has not come before the Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital, but I am having inquiries made and will communicate the result to the hon. Member.

asked what is now the settled scale of treatment of dependants of soldiers who have fallen in action, with the effect on it of the number of dependants; when the scale was adopted and put in operation; how it is that, in spite of repeated applications, representations, and supply of particulars to the War Office, Mrs. Ward and her nine children, all under fourteen years of age, dependants of soldier Ward, of the 4th Connaught Rangers, No. 4,578, who, at the age of eighteen, fell at the front in France on 8th November, 1914, are still left to starve or depend upon charity in Ireland; to what relief is this mother and family entitled; from what date; when the arrears will be paid; and whether a fixed sum will be paid henceforward?

The scale was published by Army Order of February, 1916, of which I will send the hon. Member a copy, and is now in operation. Pending its issue grants of separation allowance were ordinarily made; but in the particular case referred to Mrs. Ward has not at present succeeded in establishing dependence on the soldier. He made no claim on her behalf, and she made none until nine months after his death. The case is before the Appeals Committee, and the decision shall be communicated to the hon. Member.

asked why Martin Hopkins, of the Connaught Rangers, character certificate No. 2,275, wounded in action, discharged as unfit in consequence of wounds, quite incapable of work, and having no means whatever, is now left to die of starvation and neglect in Ireland; what pension he is entitled to; and whether it will be sent to him forthwith?

This man has been awarded a pension of 12s. 6d. a week for six months from 27th January, and the Pensions Issue Office will pay it as soon as they receive the life certificate from the man.

Suppose that this man unfortunately has lost his life certificate, will he get the pension?

asked (1), whether the new scale of four-fifths of the total possible pensions to disabled men whose disablement is due to the development of disease while in the Army is to be retrospective with regard to the right of all such to have their cases reconsidered and to the arrears of payment from the date of their disablement, respectively; (2) when the Royal Warrant embodying the recent changes in pensions will be published; and (3), whether the new scale of four-fifths of the total possible pensions to disabled men whose disablement is due to the development of disease while in the Army extends to their widows and children should such men die as a further consequence of such disease?

These points have not been overlooked, but I am not in a position at present to go beyond what I said in Debate.

Can my hon. Friend answer question No. 73 and say when the Royal Warrant will be issued?

I hope that the Royal Warrant will be issued at a very early date. I cannot say the actual date.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that ordinary seaman Walter Alexander Pearl, No. 4838a, has been discharged owing to mental breakdown; that he is now an inmate of the Ratcliffe Lunatic Asylum; and that the allotment of 5s. per week for the parents has been discontinued; and will he take such steps as are necessary to secure some financial assistance for relatives and dependants in these cases?

The man in question joined the Royal Naval Division on 10th December, 1915. He was admitted to Chatham Hospital ten days later. Twenty-two days still later he was invalided for insanity. He had thus only thirty-two days of service, twenty-two of which were spent in hospital, and as the disease which necessitated his discharge cannot be regarded as attributable to the Service, he is not entitled to the award of any pension or gratuity, nor are there any funds at the disposal of the Admiralty from which assistance can be given to his parents. The allotment naturally ceased when the man left the Service.

War Office Conteact (Messrs. Ceossley and Co., Halifax)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he is aware that Messrs. Crossley and Company, Dean Clough Mills, Halifax, hold a contract for the War Office, and that the dyers employed by this firm came out on strike on the 9th instant because the firm refused to pay more than 28s., plus 1s. war bonus, for a working week of 55½ hours to one section of their men, although the minimum wage paid by other firms for similar work is 34s. for a week of 54 hours; and if he will take action with the object of bringing the strike to an end?

I was not aware of this dispute until my hon. Friend put down his question. I have now, however, been in communication with the firm and am consulting the Chief Industrial Commissioner of the Board of Trade.

Excess Profits (Mine Owners)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that surveyors of taxes are informing mine owners that the limit of increase of the statutory percentage for Excess Profits Duty is to be 10 per cent.; and whether he will give instructions that proper consideration is given to the duration of the life of mines, as he indicated would be the case when referring in the House on the 27th October, 1915, to a gold mine which had just begun to pay though its life was not expected to exceed five years, and where 20 per cent. would be needed to repay capital alone?

I am not aware that such statements are being made, but if the hon. Member will inform me of any case he has in mind I will make inquiry. The extent of the increase of the statutory percentage for special classes of trade or business (including mining) rests with the Board of Referees and not with the Commissioners of Inland Revenue.

Sugar Imports

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is the intention of the Government to import 25 per cent. less sugar this season than formerly; whether it is proposed to restrict the supplies allotted to preserve makers; and, if so, on what principle will the restriction be based; whether he has considered that if the supplies of sugar for preserving are cut down by 25 per cent. not only will there be a considerable shortage in the production of jam, which is a very important article of food, but that hardship will be inflicted upon fruit growers by artificially closing one-quarter of the preserve maker's market to them, and by congesting other markets and forcing down prices to an uneconomic level; and whether he can undertake that the Government will endeavour to keep the supplies of sugar for preserving up to the level of last year?

The restriction referred to is now in operation and has been made necessary by the shortage of tonnage. It is not at present possible to say what future arrangements may be found practicable.

Is it true, as suggested in the question, that the supplies of sugar to preserve makers have been restricted by 25 per cent.?

At the present time a restriction is being made, but I hope that it will not be necessary to continue the restriction long.

Old Age Pensions

asked whether the Government has considered the proposal to increase the pensions of old age pensioners or whether any other proposals for the relief of these persons during the War are being considered; and whether any recommendations have been made to the local authorities in respect to this matter?

After fully considering the proposal I do not think that I should be justified in asking Parliament to consent to a further charge being thrown upon the Exchequer by an increase of old age pensions. No recommendations have been made to the local authorities in respect to this matter.

Has there been any communication with the Local Government Board?

Perhaps my hon. Friend will put down a question to the Local Government Board.

Premium Bonds

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) whether the Treasury Committee on war savings, presided over by a director of the Bank of England, has advised in favour of a scheme for the issue of premium bonds; if so, will he say what are the facts which have led to that advice being ignored; (2) whether his attention has been called to the fact that at a meeting of representative business men in the City of London it was decided to ask him to receive a deputation of bankers and other leading commercial men in favour of an issue of premium bonds; and, if so, what were the considerations which led him to a conclusion before the deputation could be received; and (3) whether he consulted the Committee which deals with War Loans for small investors before deciding not to sanction the issue of premium bonds; and, if so, what was the opinion expressed by that Committee?

The Government came to the conclusion that the issue of premium bonds would not be in the public interest. Although the advice of a Committee may not have been followed, it would be incorrect to infer that it was ignored. The decision of the Government rendered the proposed deputation unnecessary.

Small Holdings (Scotland)

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether at a recent conference of the small holders on the Lindean estate with Mr. Dunlop, of the Board of Agriculture, it was reported to him by their chairman that since these small holdings had been established they were carrying upon them double the number of horses, four times the cattle, forty times the pigs, twenty times more horses, and as many sheep as before the establishment; and, if so, whether, in order to promote similar increases in production, he will consider the propriety of taking legislative action to reduce the amount of compensation to be paid for land and so enable smaller capitals to be employed?

I understand that a statement to that effect was made, except that the word "hens" should be substituted for "horses" where the latter word appears a second time. As regards the second part of the question, my hon. Friend is aware of the action which was taken in 1914 to attain the end he desires, and of the reasons why the matter was not proceeded with.

Rates (Scotland)

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that the local authorities in Scotland are charging their rates up to May next on the rents of houses according to the valuation rolls, even though these rents cannot be re- covered by the property owners under the Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (War Restrictions) Act, 1915; that this results in paying rates on larger rentals than are received; and, if so, whether he will take any action through the Local Government Board to remedy this, in view of the fact that the Inland Revenue Department have agreed to take the lower figure for the purposes of Property Tax?

Local rates are assessed upon the valuation in the valuation roll then current, and further legislation would be necessary if the basis upon which rates are assessed were to be changed. I may remind my hon. and learned Friend that the question of rating in connection with restriction of rents was considered while the Rent Restriction Bill was passing through the House.

Land Settlement (Soldiers and Sailors)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture when the President of the Board will introduce a Bill to give effect to the recommendations of the Committee on Land Settlement for Soldiers and Sailors; and whether the attention of the President has been drawn to paragraph 87 of the Report, in which the Committee emphasises the fact that preparations must be made at once to meet the need which will arise when the War is over?

I am unable yet to say what steps the Government will sanction to carry out the recommendations of the Committee in question. My Noble Friend may rest assured that the Board of Agriculture fully recognise the importance of early action being taken.

Increased Assessment (North Bierley Union)

asked the President of the Local Government Board if he will consider the case of Mr. Ralph Barker,, a foreman joiner, of Albert Avenue, Idle, Bradford, an attested married man with, a wife and two young children dependent on him, whose house rent is being raised, from 5s. 7d. per week to 6s. 6d. per week in consequence of the action of the North Bierley Union in raising the assessment of cottage property; and if he will make representations to rating authorities with the object of persuading them not to increase the assessment of cottage property during the period of the War?

My right hon. Friend is informed that the increase in the assessment of the property in the case referred to is the result of a revision of the valuation lists throughout the union, as to which I may refer the hon. Member to my right hon. Friend's reply to his question on the 16th November last. My right hon. Friend cannot undertake to make representations to assessment committees of the kind suggested in the question.

Caherciveen and Waterville (Road Improvement)

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the fact that before the outbreak of the War a scheme for the improvement of the road between Caherciveen and Waterville was agreed to by the Road Board, steps will now be taken to have the improvement carried out.

I am informed by the Road Board that no scheme for the improvement of the road between Caherciveen and Waterville has been entertained or agreed to by the Board.

Finance Act, 1915 (Films)

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether any of the drawbacks claimed under the late Finance Act on films have yet been paid; if not, what is the amount estimated by the Customs as owing to firms engaged in this business and whether he will take steps to see that this liability is immediately discharged?

In consequence of the special difficulty of checking these claims no drawback has yet been paid, but in the majority of cases the necessary preliminary inquiries have now been completed and payment will be made at an early date. The amount due is estimated at about £23,000.

Royal Dockyards

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will say if 2s. a week special rate has been granted to the chargemen employed in His Majesty's dockyards since the reply of the Admiralty to the Dockyard Members' Committee letter dated 16th November, 1915?

There has been no increase in the authorised rates of pay for chargemen. There have been increases in pay, amounting in some cases to 2s. a week, to particular workmen, including chargemen, on the recommendation of dockyard officers; but such increases, within the scale of pay laid down, are in accordance with ordinary routine.

Will the right hon. Gentleman explain how it happens that the letter sent by the Admiralty said that there was no increase in the rate of pay to chargemen?

My hon. Friend is mixing up two things. There has been no increase of the charge pay.

It was not the charge pay; there was an increase of the ordinary rate of pay.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether new construction is proceeding at the yards with all possible speed; is he aware that some dissatisfaction is manifested owing to the fact that men have for some time past been placed on reduced overtime; and can he assure the House that all the shops are working to the utmost of their capacity?

The yards have been and are being pressed to complete vessels building at the earliest possible dates and to work all overtime that can be usefully spent on these vessels to achieve the above object. My hon. Friend must not fall into the error of imagining that excessive overtime is calculated to secure either the highest efficiency or the greatest output.

Does the right hon. Gentleman wish the House to infer that at the dockyards the output is going on now as it did before overtime was restricted?

At the dockyards last week the payments for overtime were in excess of the ordinary day payments by 42 per cent.

Board of Admiralty

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that, with the exception of the First Sea Lord, the Board of Admiralty is formed from occupants of administrative posts; and, having regard to the flexible character of the constitution of the Board, whether he will reconstitute it so as to consist solely of officers charged with operations of war, so that in practice the Board assisting him will consist of the First Sea Lord, the Chief of the Staff, and the Directors of the Intelligence, Air, and Trade Divisions?

I hope my hon. Friend will probably agree with me in thinking that the present moment is hardly appropriate for reversing the policy which placed the Board of Admiralty on its present footing.

Munitions

Prosecution of Workman (Sheffield)

asked the Minister of Munitions whether his attention has been called to the case of L. E. England, crane driver, Wooley Wood Road, Sheffield, who at 8 p.m. on 10th February received a summons, issued at the instigation of Messrs. W. Jessop and Sons, Limited, under the Munitions of War Act, 1915, ordering him to appear next day to answer a charge of unlawfully refusing to obey the lawful orders of his foreman; whether he is aware that the time allowed between the receipt of the summons and the trial was insufficient to permit the workman to consult with and obtain the assistance of his trade union representatives or to notify witnesses, had he so desired; whether he is aware that, in addition to being fined 30s. for disobeying orders, the workman was fined 20s. for losing time, although this charge was not mentioned on his summons; and what steps, if any, it is proposed to take?

I have made inquiries into this case. I am informed that the notice summoning Mr. England to appear on the 11th February was posted on the 9th February. At the hearing he attended, and made no complaint of the shortness of notice. Had he so complained and justified his complaint he could have obtained adjournment of the case, as he had done in an earlier case. The fine of 20s. for losing time was inflicted in respect of an earlier summons heard on the 11th of January, at which sitting the workman was informed that the offence of losing time charged against him had been proved; that the case would be adjourned and no further action taken if no further offence was proved against him, but that if this should occur the case would be revived. In the circumstances, I see no ground for any action.

Distilleries Adapted for National Purposes

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he can now state exactly what he has agreed with regard to pot and patent stills in Scotland, Ireland, England, and Wales?

The patent still distilleries in the United Kingdom and Ireland are being adapted as rapidly as possible for national purposes in connection with the War under an agreement with the trade. The large pot still distilleries will be subsequently adapted on similar lines. It is not proposed to deal with the small pot still distilleries in Scotland and Ireland this season, but an arrangement has been made whereby the output of any stills not directly used by or on behalf of the Government will be controlled.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he is likely to make his fuller statement on the subject?

I do not know that I can go into very much detail. I do not know that it is desirable or that I could, without giving away the reason why we are appropriating these distilleries.

Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to prohibit the introduction of Canadian grain spirit into this country?

Employment of Women

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he will take means to substitute by the employment of women the 500 or 600 men now employed at Woolwich in making bags for munitions, by transferring this class of work to allied trades where women are employed and where lodgings are cheaper and there are better means of transport to and from work than prevail in that district; whether there is great difficulty in and around Woolwich in finding suitable lodgings for women at reasonable prices; and will he state what has been or is being done to provide suitable lodgings for women employed at Woolwich?

As regards the first part of this question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to him on the 14th March. As regards the latter part of the question, a certain amount of additional accommodation for women will be provided by hostels now in course of erection, and a further scheme for the provision of greatly increased accommodation is under consideration.

Release from Colours

asked the Minister of Munitions whether soldiers have been released from the Colours in order to work under his direction as ironfounders; whether he is aware that there are nearly 200 skilled workmen on the unemployed funds of the Friendly Society of Iron Founders and that at the firm of Messrs. P. Brotherhood, Limited, where soldiers are employed, civilian workmen have recently been discharged, the firm stating that they cannot dismiss the soldiers except upon the instructions of the Ministry of Munitions; and what action, if any, it is proposed to take?

A certain number of soldiers have been released from the Colours to work as iron moulders, but none of these have been sent to Messrs. P. Brotherhood, Limited, so that there is no ground for the suggestion that civilian iron moulders have been discharged by this firm owing to the engagement of men of this occupation released from the Colours. As pointed out in answers to-previous questions, the work of moulders is specialised to a very high degree, and the fact that 200 such men are on the unemployed funds of their society does not imply that these individuals would be suitable for the particular vacancies filled by-workmen withdrawn from the Army. Unsatisfied demands for labour are always-circulated throughout the country so as to-discover if any suitable civilian labour is available before men are released from the Colours. I may add that soldiers released from the Colours may be discharged by the firm employing them, subject to a. week's notice to the Ministry.

Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)

asked the Minister of Munitions if he will publish a full and detailed statement of all orders so far issued by the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic), with particulars of all canteens actually established by or under the authority of the Board and of schemes-already authorised for the direct management and control of the liquor traffic inparticular areas?

I understand that a Report dealing with the matters referred to in the question is in process of preparation.

asked the terms of purchase of licences acquired by the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) at Invergordon, Gretna, and Enfield, respectively?

The policy of the Board has been to exercise the compulsory powers conferred upon them by Article 7 of the Liquor Control Regulations, leaving the compensation to be assessed by the Defence of the Realm Losses Royal Commission. The compensation, therefore, cannot be stated until the Commission have made their Report.

asked the Minister of Munitions whether his attention has been, called to the fact that the total consumption of intoxicating liquors during the year 1915 in the United Kingdom mea sured in terms of pure alcohol has been maintained at 92 per cent. of the quantity consumed in 1914 and 90 per cent. of the figure for 1913, while the actual expenditure of the nation in 1915 on intoxicating liquors shows an increase of 10½ per cent. over the figures for 1914 and 9 per cent. over those for 1913, notwithstanding the absence from the United Kingdom of a large percentage of the adult male population on military service; and whether he will call the attention of the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) to these figures with a view to the more effective use of the powers conferred upon that Board under the Defence of the Realm (No. 3) Act?

I am informed that the figures given by my hon. Friend are correct, and I consider them to be somewhat disquieting. At the same time, the Orders of the Central Control Board have admittedly effected a substantial reduction in drinking.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider whether it is not the proper remedy to cease to so penalise beer as to cause wholesale resort to whisky and spirits?

I frankly admit they are not as effective in the case of spirits as in the case of beer, and that is one of the matters for our consideration.

Questions

Obstruction to Military Service Act

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the announcement of intended concerted action by the National Council of the Independent Labour Party, the National' Committee of the No-Conscription Fellowship, the Society of Friends, and the Fellowship of Reconciliation to obstruct the operation of the Military Service Act, 1916; and whether he has found that the action of these associations or any of them goes outside the immunity granted to persons and associations to advocate the repeal of the Military Service Act, 1916; and, if so, what action he proposes to take in the matter?

I have not seen the announcement referred to, and have not yet observed any illegal action by these bodies which would call for measures on my part.

Public Retrenchment (Factory Inspectors)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to a recommendation in the Report of the Committee on Public Retrenchment urging that any vacancies occurring in the staff of the factory and mines inspectorates shall not be filled up during the period of the war; whether it is intended to give effect to this recommendation; and, having regard to the fact that the number of factory inspectors has already been reduced by mobilisation, grant of commissions, and transference of inspectors to service in other Government Departments, coupled with the increase in many areas of works in which a large amount of dangerous machinery is in use and the employment in such works of numbers of inexperienced workers, whether he will consider the advisability of strengthening the present weakened inspectorate by the temporary appointment of additional inspectors having experience of factory organisation and the dangers connected with factory work?

I would refer the Noble Lord to the answer given by the Home Secretary on the 16th instant to the question on the same subject by the Senior Member for Blackburn.

Alien Enemies

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why the police authorities are unable to trace alien enemies released from internment camps when a register is kept at the police station in the district where these persons are located; whether he will make inquiries and state whether persons whose names and location are respectively as follows: Weidenbach, Upton Lane, Forest? Gate, E.; Khop, Barking Road, East Ham, E.; Trenkel, Crownfield Road, Leyton, E.; Scott, Victoria Dock Road, Canning Town, E., have been released from internment camps and are employed in hairdressing shops in the place of British workers called up for military service; if he is aware that the West Ham Tribunal under the Military Service Act, 1916, gave an English hairdresser a month in which to dispose of his business, and that the applicant pleaded that the only offer he had had was from a German subject; and if he will state whether he intends to prevent enemies taking the trade and employment of British subjects?

The first three persons mentioned in the question could not be traced, because the hon. Member did not give their names correctly in his previous question. Now that they have been furnished accurately there has been no difficulty in tracing them. The fourth is probably identical with an Austrian who carries on the business of hairdresser at the address given in the name of Scott, which he had adopted for business purposes before the War. All four were recommended for exemption by the Advisory Committee on Internment. Trenkel has been twenty years here and has a British wife, and his only son is in our Army. Weidenbach came here at the age of two, and has been here thirty-seven years, and has a British wife. Khop has been here twenty years, and is a Czech, and friendly to this country. Scott came at the age of five, has been here thirty years, and is married to a Russian. They have all been for many years past in their present employment, and cannot, therefore, be said to take the place of British workers called up for military service. I have no knowledge of the incident mentioned as having taken place before the West Ham Tribunal. The last part of the hon. Member's question is a matter for the Board of Trade.

Rum Importation

asked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been called to the increase in the import of rum, the import for 1915 being 3,000,000 gallons in excess of that imported in 1914, almost double in one year; and, seeing that such import is detrimental to the use of tonnage for foodstuff, will he say if any steps are being taken to limit such imports?

As at present advised the Government is not prepared to take steps with a view to prohibiting the importation of rum, which, as my hon. Friend is doubtless aware, is largely bought by the War Office for the use of His Majesty's Forces.

Railway Hotels

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, when the railways were taken over by the Gov- ernment and profits guaranteed on the basis of 1913 earnings, these profits included that of hotels directly managed by the companies; if so, how many such hotels were placed in the position of guaranteed incomes; and whether, in view of the Regulations of the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic), it was proposed to revise the arrangement with the railway companies so far as the earnings of their hotels were concerned, so that the burden of the Central Control Board's restrictions should be equitably borne as between all classes of owners of licensed property?

The net receipts guaranteed under the Agreement between the Government and the railway companies include those from hotels. The number of hotels directly managed by these railway companies in 1913 was about fifty-five. It would not be practicable to alter the terms of compensation to the railway companies by taking into account any particular diminution of receipts that might be ascribed to restrictions imposed owing to the War.

Beef and Mutton Purchases

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state the rates of commission charged for the sale of New Zealand and Australian beef and mutton ex-store in long lines by the various agents for the year 1914, and what is the present amount charged by these agents to his Department; whether, in the case of large buyers like Fletchers, Eastmans, the British and Argentine Meat Company, and other large multiple shop-owning companies, transactions are carried out direct with his Department, or whether commissions are allowed to agents whose only duty is writing out a transfer; and what is the total amount paid in commission by his Department to selling agents from 1st April to 31st December, 1915?

I must refer my hon. Friend to the answers given to him on 22nd June and 1st July, 1915. I do not think it desirable to state the total amount paid in commission to selling agents at present.

Coal Prices (London)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the arrangement made in May, 1915, between the President of the Board of Trade and the principal coal merchants in London for a limitation of the retail prices of household coal is being continued; whether there has been any alteration in this agreement since November last; and whether he will issue as a Parliamentary Paper or otherwise a list of such merchants completed up to date?

The arrangement made with the London coal merchants in May last is being continued, and there has been no alteration in its terms since November, except for a temporary increase of cartage charges during the recent falls of snow. A list of the merchants who are parties to the arrangement was issued as a Parliamentary Paper in September. One firm has since withdrawn.

Enemy Aircraft Raids

Public Warnings

( by Private Notice ): I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for War two questions on behalf of municipal authorities on the South-East Coast: (1) Whether he will arrange that the moment warnings of air raids are received by the military or naval authorities they should be communicated to the civic and police authorities in the neighbourhood; and (2) whether, under the Regulations made under the Defence of the Realm Act, the military authorities only are allowed to give public warnings of air raids; and whether, in connection with the raid on the South-East Coast on Sunday last, the syrens were not blown until after the raid had taken place, and whether he will arrange for the civic authorities to have the power to give the necessary public warnings?

It never reached me. All I would say is that there is not only every intention to do so, but, as far as I know, it has been carried out, and warning is given to all those concerned.

I sent a letter by yesterday afternoon's post to the right hon. Gentleman at the War Office. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman may be able to reply in the Debate to-day, or would it be more convenient to raise the matter to-morrow on the Consolidated Fund Bill?

Questions

Restriction of Imports

( by Private Notice ): I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether any further steps are to be taken to prohibit or restrict the imports of any classes of goods into this country?

A Proclamation has been issued to-day prohibiting the importation into this country of motor cars for private use, musical instruments, and spirits other than brandy and rum. A number of other articles will be dealt with at an early date, but owing to administrative difficulties it was not practicable to include them in to-day's Proclamation.

Amongst those articles to be dealt with will the right hon. Gentleman include hops?

We do not propose to include hops at the moment, because its tonnage value is not very great, but I cannot commit myself on this subject.

Is it true that any restrictions are contemplated upon the import of fresh fruit?

I am afraid I cannot add anything to the answers I have given previously to that question.

Egypt (High Commissioner's Salary)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the amount of the salary of the present High Commissioner of Egypt; and whether this is chargeable upon the revenues of Egypt or is defrayed from Imperial funds?

The salary at present drawn by His Majesty's High Commissioner for Egypt is £6,460 per annum, and is defrayed from Imperial funds. A special Grant has. also been made which represents a temporary addition to the High Commissioner's salary of £2,000 a year.

Increment Value Duty (Lumsden Judgment)

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that he has been unable to introduce the one-Clause Bill to deal with the Lumsden judgment as promised on the 23rd July, 1914, instructions have been issued to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue to allow claims for Increment Value Duty in such cases to remain in abeyance; and, if not, whether he will take steps to see that no claims for Increment Value Duty are pressed which are based upon the decision in the Lumsden case?

The amending legislation referred to was intended to give effect to the principle of Clause 2 of the Revenue Bill, introduced on the 7th May, 1913, and was to apply to occasions arising since that date. In cases which would have been relieved by the proposed legislation claims for duty are held in abeyance.

Procurator-Fiscal, Kirkcudbright

asked the Lord Advocate whether the appointment Of the procurator-fiscal of Kirkcudbright, dated 19th April, 1915, contains an agreement on the part of the man appointed to abstain from engaging in any other business than the work of procurator-fiscal; and, if so, will he say how it is possible under such agreement for the fiscal to take briefs and payment therewith from school boards and other bodies?

I beg to refer my hon. and learned Friend to the answer given him by me on 14th December last, to which I have nothing to add.

Rural District Councils

asked whether an assistant overseer and rate collector in the pay of a parish council was eligible for election as a member of the rural district council whose area included such parish?

I am advised that in the circumstances mentioned an assistant overseer would not be eligible for election as a rural district councillor.

Commission of the Peace (Kerry)

asked the Attorney-General for Ireland, since the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898, does not give the Lord Chancellor power to deprive a magistrate of the commission of the peace without cause proved, and Mr. James O'Shea, of Kerry, denies the alleged cause in his case and claims an investigation, whether this investigation will be granted and the commission of peace left to depend on the result?

Under Section 95 of the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898, any chairman of a county or district council who is, by virtue of that Act, a justice, shall in his capacity of justice be subject to the same restrictions, disqualifications-and power of removal by the Lord Chancellor as any other justice of the peace. Acting in pursuance of the power given by that section the Lord Chancellor investigated the circumstances of Mr. O'Shea's case in the manner adopted in reference to any other justice before deciding that he should be removed from the Bench in the public interest.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman, if the Lord Chancellor believes the charges against him, why he did not submit them for trial by a competent Court?

The Lord Chancellor has a discretion of his own in these cases, and he is not bound to submit them to any other tribunal.

Dope Poisoning

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the death at Peterborough of James Steele, employed by Messrs. Sages, from dope poisoning; whether he is aware that Dr. Alexander Walker, who made the post-mortem examination, stated in his evidence that in his opinion the death of Steele was due to toxænic poisoning, no doubt due to tetrachlorethone; and if he intends to take immediate steps to secure the use of non-poisonous dope for the highly-poisonous dope now in use?

I have received reports on this case which confirm the view that death was due to tetrachlorethane poisoning. Inspection showed that the system of ventilation installed for drawing off the fumes was defective in some respects, and instructions have been given for improvements to be made. With regard to the latter part of the question, as I informed my hon. Friend in answer to a similar inquiry a fortnight ago, the obstacle to the use of the non-poisonous dope is that one of the essential ingredients is not produced; commercially in this country at present, and sufficient quantities of it are not avail- able, but the Departments concerned are making every effort to arrange for an increased supply. Meanwhile, new instructions embodying further administrative measures for guarding against the danger have been issued by the Home Office to all aircraft factories, and steps are being taken to extend the use by contractors of a dope made under War Office supervision which contains as little tetrachlorethane as possible.

New Member Sworn

Cecil Algernon Cochrane, esquire, the Borough of South Shields.

Orders of the Day

Supply [16th March].—Report

Army Estimates, 1916–17.—Votes a and 1

Resolution reported,

1. "That a number of Land Forces, not exceeding 4,000,000, all ranks, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at Home and Abroad, excluding His Majesty's Indian Possessions, during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1917."

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."

I wish to draw attention to a matter, of which I have given notice to the Under-Secretary of State, which intimately affects my Constituency and a great number of farmers in Lancashire. Under the Defence of the Realm Act and the Regulations made there-under, the military authorities are empowered to requisition a great number of things, including threshing machines, steam balers, and other agricultural implements from farmers whenever it seems good to the military authorities to do so. I wish the House to understand that none of my Constituents, none of the farmers concerned, and least of all myself, question for one moment that it is perfectly right and proper that the national interests should override every other interest, that if anything is wanted for the nation it should be taken at once, and that if private individuals have to suffer that is part of their contribution to the War. But I think the Financial Secretary will see that in this case not only is the national interest not served, but that very substantial injustice is being done to farmers. The first point is that the military authorities have during the last two months been extensively requisitioning all the steam balers in the country, on the ground that it is necessary, in the interests of the supply of forage for the Army, that these steam balers should be at the disposal of the military authorities. I have here letters from scores of farmers, especially in my Constituency and in South Lancashire, which prove that when the military authorities have requisitioned these steam balers they use them for only two or three days in the month, and that farmers are not allowed to use their own instruments which are lying there idle the rest of the month. This dog-in-the-manger policy is pursued to the great detriment of the farmers, and also to the great detriment of the nation, because the farmers cannot thresh out their wheat, and the national food supply is endangered. Here is one instance from a farmer at Lymm in Lancashire:

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But there is a rather more serious aspect of the case, and that is the use—I consider the improper use—which the military authorities are now making of these powers of requisitioning under the Defence of the Realm Act, not only stupidly to prevent these balers from being used, but to prevent the delivery of new balers from manufacturers to farmers, and, what is still more serious, to make farmers sell to them below the market value. Again, I do not suppose anybody will disagree that if the nation decides that individuals must sell their goods below the market value, everybody should be put on the same plane, and everybody must suffer alike. But that, I understand, is not the policy of the Government, nor is it the policy of this House. The policy during the present War has been that where anything is requisitioned from an individual, be he farmer, grocer, or coal-owner, it should be paid for at the ordinary market value, and that that price, if it cannot be arrived at by agreement, should be fixed by some independent tribunal. I call special attention to this second point, namely, the stopping of the delivery of these agricultural machines to farmers in my Constituency and in other parts of Lancashire, where, as the House knows, a very large amount of straw is produced, and arable land represents the main part of the farmer's industry. Here is another letter from Mr. Thomas Smith, Bold, near Widnes. The district purchasing officer requisitioned on hire Mr. Smith's baler and engine, and sent them into another county. Mr. Smith entered into negotiations with three makers of balers, and finally bought one from Rushton and Proctor, Lincoln, who gave a guarantee of delivery within ten days of order, although the makers had to make new wood wheels in place of the usual iron wheels. The district purchasing officer wrote to Mr. Smith, saying that they could only allow the machine to be delivered under the condition of Mr. Smith agreeing to only use the baler on Government-purchased straw. Mr. Smith declined to give such an undertaking, and the district purchasing officer informed Rushton and Proctor that they must not put the baler on the railway. The result was that a new baler, etc., which was very urgently needed in Mr. Smith's district, lay idle in the makers' works at Lincoln. I can quite understand the Government being given the preference in the use of these agricultural machines, but I cannot understand the condition being made that Mr. Smith must only undertake to do Government work, whether or not there is Government work to do, and with his machines standing idle. Such a policy seems against the best interests of the country. I hope, again, that hon. Members will agree with me that at all events this is not a business- like way, nor the way we should behave to the Lincoln firm, nor to Mr. Smith. The military authorities ought to let the farmer have the baler to use if the military authorities do not require it. To refuse to let him have his baler unless he undertakes to do or not to do certain things, is a policy which is at once arbitrary, tyrannical, and very stupid—stupid from the national point of view. The other point is more serious, and I really think the whole thing is very wrong. Here is a letter from Lieutenant Brown to Mr. John Atherton, Oak Farm, Weelton, near Liverpool. It is dated the 12th February. So far as I can make out, it says that the press should not be used unless Mr. Atherton was prepared to sell the straw to the Government at a price fixed by the Government. That price is considerably and substantially below the market price. I do not suppose that is the Government's principle, but if it is the Government's principle we ought to know it. Perhaps the Government cannot afford to pay the market price, but I do not understand that that is the Government's policy. If it is not, I hope they will take steps to bring Lieutenant Brown to order, and Colonel Morgan as well. May I read the letter written by the farmer:

Will the hon. Gentleman say what price the Government were to pay for the straw?

I will tell the hon. Member. The straw not required for the use of the farmer was to be sold to the Government at 70s. per ton baled oat straw and 65s. baled wheat straw. The comment the farmer offered on this proposal is that the prices offered are much below that at which he had sold his straw. He had, however, to accept the prices offered because he wanted seed oats, and he could not get the latter, nor could he find accommodation for the abundant straw. If he had not used the press it would have been lying idle. Even if the farmer were unsympathetic and unreasonable in regard to the price—which I do not think is the case—I understand it is not the policy of the Government to use their requisitioning powers in order to buy below the market value or the value which is given by the local tribunal. It seems to me that this is a form of blackmail which ought to be resisted. Not only is it unfair to the individual farmer, but it is also against the best interests of the nation, because we want the best possible supply of oats and wheat. I hope in what I have said I have made my position clear.

In the first place, I should like to express what I feel in regard to the New Army. I do not think anything has been said in this House strong enough in regard to the wonderful individual effort made by people throughout the country in forming this New Army. A thousand men, if may be, have been put together in a battalion, often perhaps, with only one or two Regular soldiers to help. To consider the way in which they individually have overcome the difficulties due to the want of proper preparation, and the way they have now gone out to fight as part of our National Army is, to those who have taken part in it, a source of extraordinary pride—and I may add a source of pride to all of us. I do not think it is fully realised what an enormous burden has fallen upon the Regular Army in what I might describe as "holding the pass" until the rest of the nation was ready. It is a burden such as I think no nation had any right to put upon its Regular troops. It seems to me to be an extraordinary thing that the country should have only sent out to take part, to begin with, in the greatest War in its history, a force approximately equal to the number of men who have since volunteered to come into the Army from one single Welsh county, the county of Glamorganshire. Some idea of the extraordinary burden that our arrangements threw on the original Army may be gathered from the fact that it was only after many months that the Territorials were able to come forward and take up the burden. Now we are beginning as a nation, as a whole, to take part in the War. When some of those who would discredit the Army in relation to some of the questions that we discuss talk of the strain of the War upon the country, one extraordinary burden which I do not think has ever been mentioned is the strain we have had in war-time in taking hundreds of thousands of men away from industry. These men have ceased to be productive-in those industries, and have been kept for months and months at an enormous, cost to the country; they have been lost to industry, and have not yet become efficient as soldiers. This, of course, is a burden which goes on owing to the country not having trained these men gradually beforehand in view of war, and thus this task has to be done suddenly. However, that is a matter of the past.

As to the immediate present, there are certain difficulties which I urge upon the Government to attend to at the earliest possible opportunity, because I think they are impeding our progress in the War. There is the difficulty of the married men, who feel that they have been treated unjustly because of the excessive exemptions given to the single men. I feel that in that case not only ought the married men to do their duty and come forward, but they ought also to trust the Government to do its duty to them: both the Government and the married men ought to do their duty. Any holding back on the part of the married men ought not to be, but they ought to come forward, and the country ought to be pressed to do them justice. In regard to one or two other important points—before I pass on to further topics—there is in the country great uncertainty in regard to the question of medical exemption. Men hear that they are exempted, and then they are called up again. I quite agree that everybody who is fit should serve, but when there are these-uncertainties it makes it very difficult for persons who have a business, which they must give up, and which they are willing; to give up if fit, but who do not know? whether or not they are fit, to decide quite what to do. There is great uncertainty in regard to the question of rents, long leases, the giving up of businesses, or the giving up of employment. These matters should receive immediate attention, not only as a matter of justice to the individual, or the carrying out of a particular pledge, but as a matter of justice in its wider application.

Nearly all the difficulties are due to what can be removed by more vigorous administration. They are mainly due to the delay of the Government in the past. It seems almost incredible that when the National Register Bill was introduced the Government even then openly proclaimed that it was not in any way intended as a preliminary to compulsion. No wonder compulsion is not going on so well at present. If the Government had only set to work long ago to plan out a scheme of compulsion so as to be able to bring it in the moment the voluntary system failed, we should have been in a much better position. This lack of forethought is the cause of many of the evils of the present day. When we realise that the Government has officially announced that the great lesson of the Dardanelles was lack of men, we cannot help feeling that it is largely due to the Government not bringing in compulsion sooner, and not getting on sooner with their organisation, that the men were not available, because the decisive point of that campaign was long, long after the beginning of the War. If we had had compulsion sooner the position at the Dardanelles, as well as that at Bagdad, might have been something very different.

I know, but I may answer the hon. Member on that point by saying those who dissented from compulsion in this House used the argument that we had not got the rifles, not as an argument for getting the rifles, but as an argument for going without the men. Not only so, but we have the case of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon). He has brought out the case of the only son of the widow very much in the same way. If the calling of a man to the Colours would bring hardship to a widowed mother, surely the proper thing would be to urge upon the Government to do its duty to the widow and to provide for her while her son is away fighting the country's battles. That is not what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow proposes. What he proposes is that the grievance should be retained, and that the case of the widow should be used not as a thing to be remedied, but as a weapon to be used to forward the campaign against the policy of compulsion. I cannot but think—and I cannot help saying what I do think—that the Government are paying a great deal too much attention to a small group of men, many of whom would not have been in this House if only we had had a General Election. The Unionist party—as it was—and is— will help and work as one body in this House, yet we find our Bills being weakened, our wishes ignored, and undue preference being given to those who are only here because the five years' Act with regard to the duration of Parliament was made to stand over. I am not sure the right hon. and learned Member for Walthamstow would be Member for anywhere if there were a General Election. I am not sure the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden), who figures largely in this House, would figure in it any longer if an election took place. I know he is the principal follower of the right hon. and learned Member for Walthamstow, and I know the speeches of the hon. Member for Blackburn and those of the hon. Member for Leicester (Mr. R. Macdonald) are circulated all over the United States by the Germans. I suggest that the Government would do their duty better to the country if they paid more attention to those who have loyally supported them in the past than to men who intervene between the Army in time of war and the men who are absolutely necessary for the conduct of the War.

Another argument of the right hon. and learned Member for Walthamstow was that it was much better when things were left to the natural play of forces. We know what that means in the case of the Army. Whoever supposed you could win a war by the natural play of forces? The natural play of forces means this: that you take at the beginning of a war not the men you can best spare, not the best fitted, not the young, but anyone who happens to come forward, and you send men out even from munition works. You get a, lot of them killed for want of shells, and you call some of them back, and you bless your wisdom for working under a voluntary system. This country, under what the right hon. and learned Gentleman calls "the natural play of forces," has also enlisted large numbers of skilled munition workers who have spent months in being trained and got ready here to go to the Front, and then it has discovered its error and has recalled them to the munition works. Those three or four months or more of training are wasted, the money is wasted, and the skill is wasted of the men who ought to be working in munition shops. But it has one result: it gives enormous satisfaction to the right hon. and learned Gentleman because it constitutes an example of the natural play of forces. We have been told that compulsion imposes a great strain on our financial resources and our industries. Why, under the natural play of forces, of which the right hon. and learned Gentleman spoke, there is a far greater strain upon our resources. Supposing there were four brothers, two of them working in what you might call a luxury trade, one a munition worker, and the fourth in some industry essential to the country. What happens under a voluntary system? As likely as not the munition worker, and the man working in an essential industry, go out to the front and the two men in the luxury trade stop at home. You get two men for the Army, but at the utmost cost. If you apply the compulsion principle to those men, you send out the two men you can spare, you keep the munition worker making munitions for the men who have gone out, and you keep the one man working in the essential industry. Thereby you strengthen the country for war, because you still have two soldiers, and those two soldiers go out better supplied. You strengthen the country because you have your munition worker at home making munitions, and you strengthen the country financially and commercially because you keep the important industrial worker at home. It is a very primitive example. It is difficult to express a matter of that sort in general terms, but I submit it is an admirable example of the methods which the right hon. and learned Member for Walthamstow supports.

There are some—there may be one or two here now—who say that we ought to go on with this War on the lines of the Napoleonic campaign, and that we ought mainly to confine ourselves to keeping the seas clear, which I am thankful we are doing, and incidentally—I think it merely comes to this—make as much money as we can. You cannot finish this War on the lines of the Napoleonic campaign, but I would, at all events, suggest to those who urge that policy upon us that before they submit it either to us or their constituents they should mention the length of time it took us to conclude the Napoleonic wars under the system they advocate, and then calculate the cost, if their arithmetic extends so far, in terms of what the War is costing us now ins losses of all kinds—the upkeep of the Navy, and so on. The greatest cost of all is a longer war. The whole financial argument is in favour of a strong Army and shorter war; it is not on the side of the anti-compulsionist. We are in a different time from the Napoleonic days. We are in a time when this country is-fighting for all we care for in civilisation. No man knows now what it would mean to the history of the whole world for generations if a disaster should occur in the North Sea. The whole of civilisation would be changed. Some of us think it would be obliterated if we did not win. The nation is at war, and that being so the whole nation must fight either in the Army, or by doing its duty, as the vast majority of the working classes have done their duty in the workshops, working long hours to help us to win this-great campaign. We must all be at war. Even the right hon. and loyal Member for Walthamstow is at war, but he has not found it out yet. Everyone is at war, and all must do their best and not intervene between the Army and the supplies of munitions and men which the Army needs.

I also suggest that we require stronger emphasis upon the policies this Government adopts. I, for one, see no advantage whatever in introducing a policy of compulsion and then emphasising so strongly the question of the pledge, and saying it is only a little compulsion. It is far better to acknowledge it is compulsion. I do not see any advantage in saying, "Let us get the men in right up to the last minute, and say they are voluntary men coming in." There was an account in the paper of a man who-ran up the steps of the town hall somewhere on the stroke of midnight and just beat the stroke and got enrolled. It may be thought a triumph for the voluntary system, but I cannot help thinking he-ran up the steps because of compulsion. We all get, I suppose, demands for taxes, and the hope is expressed sometimes in very charming and courteous terms that payment will be made within twenty-one days. But nobody puts on such a demand, "Please pay within twenty-one? days and save the voluntary system of taxation." As a matter of fact, things happen to you and measures are taken if taxes are not paid. In the same way, lots of people have come in now because of this compulsory system, but this compulsory system is the foundation of the Derby scheme, and I think it far better to acknowledge compulsion has been adopted, and to defend it on the lines that we believe it to be right, and not on the lines that it is a pledge given under circumstances which we all know. Far better to say it is compulsion and to go forward. I do urge upon the Government to go forward strongly, and to be more influenced by those who support them than by a small group who are undermining and attacking their compulsory proposals. Let us go forward in this great fight with a leadership and with a courage worthy of our cause, and worthy of the great Armies fighting that cause.

On Thursday last the House had two replies to the speech of the right hon. and learned Member for Wal-thamstow. Those replies mainly consisted in the assertion that the speech delivered by my right hon. and learned Friend would give a great deal of joy in Germany, but there was no attempt to answer the arguments which were advanced. To-day, after a long week-end, the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just spoken has entered the breach and endeavoured to do what had not been done by the President of the Local Government Board or by the hon. and gallant Baronet the Member for Sunderland (Colonel Sir H. Greenwood). The hon. Member who has just sat down represents a view which is very strongly held, I believe, by the majority on the other side of the House, and is held also by a considerable number on this side, that this country should concentrate the main part of its energies upon its military effort in this War, and that for that concentration it is absolutely essential that a complete system of compulsory military service should be adopted in this country. Personally, I join issue entirely with that view. I believe that this exaggeration of the military function to be played by this country in this War is likely to lead this country to disaster. The hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite has referred to the Napoleonic wars, and he spoke contemptuously of the policy which was pursued by the great men of that day. [HON. MEMBERS: "No !"] After all, the great men of that day were justified by success, and the policy which the hon. and gallant Gentleman is now advocating has yet to be tested by experience; and as that policy is contrary to the traditional policy of this country I am inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the great men in the Napoleonic era. It is surprising to find men of the Tory party, men who are constantly, in domestic matters, inviting us to appeal to the wisdom of our ancestors, pouring contempt upon that part of the wisdom of our ancestors which has been tried by the test of experience and found successful.

There are many of us who believe that all the trouble in connection with recruiting, that all the mistakes and all the blunders which have arisen, are solely attributable to the fact that this country has for the first time in this War entered upon a Continental policy on a basis of unlimited liability. We believe that had that not been done, we should have been able to fight this War with a much smaller Army in the field; that for the purposes of the smaller Army the resources of the voluntary system would have been ample; and, furthermore, that by employing the voluntary system wisely, we should have been able to make use of the maximum of our effort, not only military, but naval, industrial, and commercial, for the purpose of the successful prosecution of the War. The hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite spoke of the length of time the Napoleonic wars lasted. It is quite true. And he asked if hon. Members would apply their arithmetic and consider where this country would be if we were to fight a war such as the present on the basis of the present expenditure for the period of the Napoleonic wars. Of course we could not. If the Government were pursuing the policy of the Napoleonic wars it would not cost nearly so much, and there would not be a conflict between the claims of war and the claims of trade. We hear hon. Gentlemen opposite pouring contempt upon those of us who assert that it is necessary to have regard to the claims of trade. Let those hon. Gentlemen remember that during the Napoleonic wars we were every year increasing our trade. The Port of London was never more prosperous than it was then, and you had to extend the West and East India Docks, and the London Docks were all constructed during those wars. It was because of this vast expansion of trade that this country was able to make the supreme effort which it then made, and had we pursued a similar policy in this war, instead of sacrificing everything to the military effort, had we given attention to the maintenance of our trade at the same time and paid attention to our needs at sea, then we should have had the financial and commercial resources to continue this war for an unlimited time. The question now comes whether we shall have these resources. It is possible, as the present War is going on now, that there will actually be no military decision. There is every indication that we have got a deadlock on the West front. The French offensive and ours in the autumn failed, and during recent weeks we see that a similar fate has befallen the German offensive at Verdun. On each side this proves the same lesson, that under the trench conditions of warfare, where you have practically an equal force of men and artillery, you are brought to a deadlock, and there is every indication that the conditions of deadlock are reproduced in the East. In these circumstances you cannot look for a military decision, and if it be true that you are not going to get a military decision, then the decision will depend upon staying power, and staying power depends altogether upon the relative financial resources of the contending belligerents. Therefore our staying power can only depend on the conservation of the financial resources of the people of this country. If due heed is paid to the necessity of doing this, then when the time for negotiation comes we shall be in a position to lay down the terms. It may be that when that time comes our enemies may be in possession of a certain amount of conquered territory, but if we are able to continue our efforts in the War, if we are able still to assist our Allies financially, then we shall be in the position to say "We can go on as long as you please," and the State which is able to say when negotiations are going on that they are able to continue indefinitely, that State or group of States, is the one which is going to dictate the terms of peace. The hon. Gentleman opposite dealt with some of the subsidiary expeditions which have to such a large extent dissipated our military strength in this War, and he drew the lesson from the Dardanelles that if we had only had more men and compulsion several months earlier all would have been well in the Dardanelles.

I did not give that as my opinion. I was quoting it as a statement of the Government.

I thought the hon. Gentleman adopted it, but if he did not adopt that opinion then his argument was valueless. His argument entirely depended on the statement that if we had had more men we could have carried the Dardanelles, and he said if we had had compulsion we should have had more men earlier in the War. The hon. Member forgets that the voluntary system, during the whole of the period of active operations in the Dardanelles, was giving us more men than we could equip, so that even if we had had the compulsory system we could not by a single man have increased our military strength in the Dardanelles. The whole of this question was very clearly put by the Minister of Munitions in the month of June when he was discussing this question of policy, and the right hon. Gentleman then said that he himself believed in the compulsory principle, but we did not require compulsion for the Army. The trouble then was that we were getting too many men into the Army, and the same statement was made by a representative of the Government two months later, I think at the time of the Suvla Bay expedition. The real moral to be drawn from the Dardanelles expedition was that we undertook there an expedition which, in order to be successful, required a large military force, and a far larger military force than this country could afford, and that by attempting that operation we considerably weakened our military power in the Western theatre of war, where it could have been much more effectively exercised. We are now reaping the fruits of that rash and reckless policy. In the Dardanelles we sacrificed many of the best men of the New Army, who came in when you had a really severe medical examination, who trained quickly, who were keen soldiers, the 29th Division.

My point is that among those men who went out there were many men who had been recruited since the beginning of the War.

The great bulk of the men who went out to the Dardanelles were men who had been recruited since the beginning of the War. It is not necessary for me to distinguish between these men, because a Territorial who enlisted for foreign service at the beginning of the War is in the same position, and I say that the bulk of the men who went to the Dardanelles were not professional soldiers at the beginning of the War. That is a self-evident proposition, and I say further that many of these men were the best men we had got. In some of these Divisions you had men who were actually in the prime of life for fighting purposes, chiefly between twenty-four and twenty-seven and twenty-eight years of age, who are absolutely at their very best, and they were such men as you are not getting to-day, when you are sweeping in the maimed, the halt and the blind. These are not the men you are getting now, because they were wasted in the Dardanelles, and that is the quarrel we have in connection with the Dardanelles Expedition, that you there wasted men who were some of the best material who have joined the Army since the War began, and which it is absolutely impossible at this stage to replace. The Dardanelles was only one of those expeditions, but we have also had the unfortunate entanglement of Mesopotamia. I do not wish to discuss the present situation there, because I do not think it is in the public interest at the present time to refer to it, but in the light of what has happened there can be no justification whatever for the attempt to take Baghdad. We might have taken steps to protect our interests on the Persian Gulf, but to attempt to take Baghdad and risk the Army that you sent there was absolutely a gamble. We have been told that the Dardanelles was a gamble, but this is a second gamble, and in both cases alike you have had a reckless gambling military policy pursued by the Government, tending to weaken our military resources for the prosecution of the War.

Take, again, the Expedition to Salonika. Many of us would have sympathised with that Expedition had it been sent in time to be of any use to protect Serbia from the Bulgarians and the Austro-Germans; but everybody knows that hardly any of our troops were landed there before Serbia was absolutely at the mercy of her enemies. I have tried to find out exactly what has happened, and, so far as I can gather, the only result of sending our troops there is to protect certain commercial interests in Salonika, but, so far as. Serbia is concerned, the presence of our troops there has been absolutely valueless. Here we have these three Expeditions-undertaken by a Power which was not a military Power and which had few trained men at the beginning of the War, and which had to practically train the whole of these men. We have had these unnecessary Expeditions undertaken to the weakening of our military resources and also-tending to bring disaster to us.

I do not know why my remarks excite the merriment of the hon. and gallant Member for Kincardineshire, who suggests that I should have been Chief of the General Staff. It is very kind of him to show such a low opinion of his superiors as to suggest that I could have done better. After all, in the case of any hon. Members who have given attention to military history it is justifiable to form an opinion upon the events which have happened in the course of this War, and offer that opinion by way of criticism. After all, the argument I am putting forward is a defence of the traditional policy of this, country, as opposed to the naval and military policy which has been pursued by this country during the War. At any rate, I am following the footsteps of General Staffs who have led this country to victory in the past, and when the General Staff has done that they may claim immunity from criticism. It is an open secret that the General Staff did not approve of the expedition to Salonika, and therefore in what I have said I believe I have the General Staff on my side. I am not sure that I might not make the same claim in regard to the Dardanelles, and even if we knew the facts in regard to Mesopotamia I might have the General Staff on my side. We had a War Staff when the Dardanelles Expedition was undertaken, and while it is quite true that Lord Kitchener has been superseded by the new General Staff, I think we are entitled to quote the military authorities throughout the whole series of these trans- actions. I doubt whether Lord Kitchener himself approved of the Dardanelles Expedition.

There seems to be a great diversity of opinion upon the point, but I think it can be maintained that the Dardanelles Expedition was undertaken for political and not for military reasons, and that the military and naval aspects of the situation were not the dominating things in the minds of the Government. They were carried away, or were mainly influenced, by the political considerations. It is fair to draw that conclusion from the speech of the Prime Minister made in this House in the month of November. Consequently, I am not at all sure in all my criticisms, which have excited the derision of the hon. and gallant Member for Kincardineshire (Major Murray), that I have not competent military opinion on my side. This military policy has not only weakened us from the military point of view, but it has also weakened us from the naval point of view. Our expeditions to the Dardanelles and our expeditions to the Near East have placed a very much larger burden upon the Navy than it would otherwise have had to carry. You have had fleets of transports and supply ships proceeding to Eastern Mediterranean ports. All these transports and supply ships have had to run the gauntlet of German and Austrian submarines, and in consequence they have had to be protected by the various vessels which the Navy employs for the purpose of dealing with the submarine peril. That has obviously weakened the Navy for the purpose of dealing with the submarine peril in the North Sea, in the Irish Sea, and in the Atlantic. It is obvious that had it not been necessary for the Admiralty to divert these vessels for the purpose of protecting transports and so forth in the Eastern Mediterranean, they would have been in a far better position to deal with the submarine peril in the seas immediately adjoining our shores.

We had a complaint from the late First Lord of the Admiralty (Colonel Churchill), in the very interesting and somewhat alarming speech which he made some days ago from the other side of the House, that recently the Navy has ceased to take the offensive. Why is that? It is because the Navy has had to dissipate its energies. It has not been able to concentrate and so deal in an offensive way with the Germans in the North Sea. That is one result of this dissipation of our energies. It is only necessary to watch the announcements which are being made from week to week of the restrictions upon our imports to see what the effect of all this has been upon our Navy. We are now in a state of blockade. Hon. Gentlemen who criticise the Government from another point of view frequently speak of the "blockade of Germany" and of "tightening the blockade of Germany," but we are under blockade by our own action. His Majesty's Government by their military policy are placing this country under a blockade at the present time. It is because of that blockade instituted by the policy of this Government that to-day our supplies of sugar are reduced by 25 per cent. It is because of that blockade that we have to submit to a limitation on the importation of paper. It is because of that blockade that we see tobacco and all sorts of other imports interfered with. This blockade is entirely due to this unnecessary and ruinous military policy which has been advocated by His Majesty's Government.

I do not wish to labour the secondary effects of this military policy, but take another aspect of it. We had another complaint in regard to the Navy, also ventilated by the late First Lord of the Admiralty. It was a complaint to which the present First Lord (Mr. Balfour) in his extremely able debating reply offered no-real answer. It was that the ships now under course of construction are being delayed on account of the shortage of labour. That shortage of labour is entirely due to this military policy. The hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite thinks that if we had not gone by the haphazard method of the voluntary system we should not have had this shortage of labour. He said, "You may have a family of four sons. Two of them may be in munition works and the other two in luxury trades. If you were under a scientific system, you would never allow men in the munition works to go. You would only take men in the luxury trades." I quite agree that you should not allow men in munition works to go, but it does not follow that you are going to make a good military effort by taking men out of the luxury trades if they happen to be medically unfit. That is the scientific policy of the present recruiting officers. The hon. and gallant Gentleman, who so ably understudies Lord Derby in this House, disagrees, but I can assure him from the evidence of my letter bag that it is so. I am receiving by every post letters from men who are medically unfit, men who have had ruptures, men who are organically unsound. I find that these men are daily and weekly being taken into the Army. Only a few moments ago a man whom I know well came to me in the Lobby and told me of his son, a man who has had to be operated on in the past and who, to the naked eye, is obviously unfit for military service, has been taken into the Army during the past week and put on to heavy pack drill. As a result, he is now practically unfit, and will be a few days in hospital.

I could give the hon. and gallant gentleman another case of a man who offered himself for the Army. He told the examining doctor that he had had a rupture, but in spite of that information he was passed into the Army. Within a week he broke down, and, although that is three months ago, he is still kept in the Army doing absolutely nothing, solely a charge upon the country. These are only a few cases which are in my mind at the present time. There are thousands of them, and I fail to see in this alleged scientific system any ray of hope for the military future of this country. Undoubtedly, too many men have been taken from munition works. It is regrettable that they should have been taken, but you have to face this aspect of the matter. These men engaged in these employments, as a rule, are men of considerable physical vitality, and they are, therefore, the men most ready to offer themselves for military service. That is the reason why they have been taken in. The men in the luxury trades usually are men of no great physical vitality. Those trades do not make great demands upon a man's physical strength, and consequently you do not get out of them men of any great physical development. That is the reason why you are getting returns from the Derby scheme which are so inadequate and unsatisfactory. Undoubtedly the demands of the Army upon munition works have had the effect of retarding the construction of these battleships and cruisers. We have the admission, or at least the tacit admission, of the Government that from two points of view the excessive military effort you are now making is weakening the naval strength of this country, and by weakening its naval strength is endangering its success in the War.

The argument which I have addressed to the House fairly puts the case of those of us who object to this military system, and who regard it as dangerous to the success of the Allies' cause. That is one reason why some of us have opposed the introduction of compulsion in respect of military service. It is because we believe that if you have compulsory military service you are increasing the temptations of military men to extend their demands upon the Government. The more readily they can get the men the more likely are they to increase their demands. On the other hand, if you have not the facility of obtaining men which compulsion gives, there is a natural check to excessive military demands. That was the main point of the argument which was put forward by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon) when he talked of the "natural play of forces." "The natural play of forces" was not a phrase which I personally should have used, but I think the argument as I have stated it—the fact that compulsion gives men readily without questioning—is a reason why a country like ours, which should consider rather its naval and financial interests, should not enter upon a compulsory system.

5.0 P.M

We find, as a result of this compulsory system, what we may call this diluted militaryism introduced by the Military Service Act, that we are having all sorts of grievances arising, all sorts of bung-lings, and all sorts of hardships. I have alluded to the medically unfit. My right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for War (Mr. Tennant) has, I am glad to say, done his best to prevent the calling up of medically unfit men who are entitled to exception under the terms of the Act, but I may tell him that in spite of all his efforts, notices are still being issued by the War Office to men who are entitled to exemption under the terms of the Act. That is still going on in spite of the War Office; in fact, the extent to which it is going on is calculated to completely destroy what remains of one's confidence in that rather discredited institution. We know that when the Bill was going through this House a number of statements were made which were accepted by those to whom the Bill was to apply under the belief that they would serve as directions for the guidance of tribunals. We had a statement about the widow's only son made by the Prime Minister. I think one was also made by the President of the Local Government Board, which indicated that where a widow had an only son upon whom she was dependent, in that case exemption should be given. The Prime Minister made a similar statement. However, when those statements are quoted before the tribunals hon. Members of this House, who are military representatives at those tribunals declare that those statements were made only for the purposes of the House of Commons and that the tribunals are not to pay any attention to them whatever! That surely is not a fair way of treating the men who anxiously read the Debates in this House in order to ascertain the exact position in which they would be placed when the Act was being administered. Under these circumstances it is the duty of the President of the Local Government Board to see that the instructions which are given to tribunals should, to some extent at least, harmonise with the declarations made by Ministers in the course of Debates in this House.

There is another point in connection with this subject to which I should like to call the attention of the President of the Local Government Board. The right hon. Gentleman has issued what are, on the whole, I believe, full and complete instructions with regard to the position of the conscientious objector. Personally, up to the present time, I have taken no part in the controversy so far as the conscientious objector has been dealt with. But I think if the right hon. Gentleman will look at the proceedings before the tribunals he will find that those bodies are deliberately not only ignoring the law, but also his own Instructions, and that certain members of the tribunal and certain military representatives have stated that, under the terms of the Act, the tribunals are only entitled to grant exemptions from combatant service to conscientious objectors. Obviously the Act provides for more than that. It gives much larger discretion to these tribunals. At certain tribunals the military representative has stated definitely that only exemptions from combatant service can be granted, and that no total exemption, nor exemption on the condition that the claimant for exemption is to be engaged in national work—that neither of these kind of exemption are to be granted. I would suggest to my right hon. Friend that he should indicate to these tribunals that they are misinterpreting the Act of Parliament and defying his own Instructions, and he should call their attention to the particular paragraph in the Instructions which clearly indicates the exact position.

These are the main criticisms which I would make in regard to the administration of the Military Service Act. There are other aspects of it which are bound to engage the attention of the House. There is, for instance, the calling up of the married men. This and other problems will occupy the attention of the Government in the immediate future. So long as the pay and allowances to the dependants of soldiers are on the present scale, it is impossible to ask many of the men who will now be called upon to serve to enter upon that service without some additional provision being made for them. But all these difficulties, all these blunders have arisen from the departure from our old system which has been rendered necessary by the excessive military commitments into which the Government have light-heartedly and purposely entered. By so doing they have weakened the position of this country in this War. They have weakened it not only from a military point of view, but they have also injured it from the naval and financial points of view, and it is owing to the cumulative effects in all these three Departments that we protest against this power, and we believe it is absolutely necessary, if a successful result is to be achieved for this country, once more to restrict itself to a less vigorous military policy.

I do not propose to follow the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Pringle) into the discussion of the vexed question of our expeditions in different parts of the world in connection with the Army. I have no doubt that he and those associated with him will be satisfied with having given food to the enemy when they say, with the approval of the hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Holt), that this country is in a state of blockade. Probably the readers of that statement in Germany will not be able to place upon the statements of the hon. Members for Mid-Lanark and Hexham the value put upon them in this House. Nor am I prepared to follow the hon. Member in his comparison between the conduct of this War and that of the Napoleonic wars. But it would, I think, be useful for the hon. Member to remember that, probably, the Germans have lost, in an attack on one town only, a force equal to any which Napoleon had under his command at any one time. The hon. Member's comparison, therefore, appears to be futile and useless. The hon. Gentleman as usual, like those associated with him, has attacked the recruiting authorities in this country. I wonder if even this House realises the amount of work which has been done in the national interest by recruiting officers throughout the country. Does it know who the gentlemen are who are directly responsible in the different counties, in what are known as area commands? These gentlemen have worked day in and day out, many of them without a day's leave, since August, 1914. I would remind hon. Members who adopt this attitude of attack that these hard-worked servants of the State are whole-timers, and not half-timers like us in this House. Then the other persons responsible are the recruiting staff officers attached to the area commands. Many of these men have given up their private life altogether. I know men working as lieutenants who have been Chief Justices in our Colonies. There are many such men throughout Great Britain who have been prepared thus to give their services in the interest of winning the War, although their names will never resound, even in one part of the country, as, possibly, the name of some Member who is opposed to the proper conduct of the War. These men have done good work while hon. Gentlemen opposite have hampered it.

We have great trouble still to contend with in connection with this recruiting movement. We have found since the opening of the tribunals an enormous number of persons who are considered to be in certified occupations. I am glad the Government have seen their way to curtail the list of certified occupations. The real way to meet this trouble would be that every single man should be compelled to go before the tribunal and prove to that body, which is representative of the people in the area in which he resides, that he is better serving the country as a civilian than he would be as a soldier. The onus of proof at the present moment is on the military representative. The suggestion I make would place it on the attested man, whether attested voluntarily or attested under the Act. That I believe would be the best way of acting at this crisis, and certainly it would be a step in the right direction. Again, I would venture to suggest to the Government that they should endeavour to make use in every industry and every trade of co-operation within those industries and trades, in order that men may be released.

One of these much abused military representatives, whom the party opposite are so fond of trying to pour cold water upon, has put forward a sound suggestion. He suggests, in fact, that where, in a town, there are six or seven bakers, they should pool their trade and thereby release their single men and enable them to go and serve their country. The same might be done in the case of the butchers, and also, I should think, in connection with agriculture. I know of one district in Norfolk where a strong man, with a full knowledge of agriculture, called a meeting of the farmers and showed them how they could release a large number of their men for service in the Army. He took a census of a certain district and found that there were 540 labourers available in it. He pointed out that the work could be done to the satisfaction of the farmers with 210 men, and one old farmer left the meeting, saying, "Lord, have we not been wasting our money all these years?" I would suggest to the Board of Agriculture that they might do something in this direction through the medium, say, of the parish councils. Those bodies in the past have-been chiefly concerned in lighting the way to church and chapel. Now they have no lights to deal with, and they might devote their efforts to some more useful purpose in the way of organising the pooling of labour available in every parish, so as to release more men for military service. I would further ask that the Government should enforce the penal Clauses of the Registration Act. The number of men who avoid service to-day by changing their place of residence is far greater than any of us have any notion of.

The hon. Member who says, "Hear, hear," Will he be willing that every man should, on representation from a proper authority, say a police officer, produce his registration card, and, if he cannot do so, be compelled to register there and then, and' prove why he should not be serving with the Colours, provided, of course, that he is of military age? This is the first time I have heard the hon. Gentleman applaud anything which would bring men to the Colours. I hope that it foreshadows a new departure on his part.

I have done as much as the hon. and gallant Member to bring men to the Colours.

I am not making any insulting reflections. I am only saying what is perfectly obvious, that the hon. Gentleman, and those associated with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon), have hampered the getting of men into the Army. They have deliberately sheltered the shirker, and in the past have done nothing to assist the voluntary system.

I except from that observation the hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas), who did assist the voluntary system, but the hon. Member for Mid-Lanark has done absolutely nothing in that direction, and I could, if necessary, name other hon. Members of whom the same might be said, and to whose action it is owing very largely that the voluntary system has had to be brought in. I hope the Government will see their way to utilise labour in different directions, and advise men to go from occupations who are not urgently required into the Army. Many of us, when we arrive at any of the London termini, find that there is not only one man, but probably two men, waiting outside every carriage door ready to carry our bags. If those men are unfit for military service let them be put to service in the interests of the State, such as the production of munitions, which is clearly more remunerative than the work of porters, and let them be encouraged to act to the best advantage in the interests of the country. The party which is hampering in this House and outside the getting of men for the Army may be likened to those we meet on the racecourse, who have backed the voluntary horse in the first race of the day, but it has lost, and they spend the rest of the day trying to make the people believe that the voluntary horse has been pulled. The voluntary horse having failed to meet our competitors in the great race between nations, we have to pin our faith on another horse. I ask hon. Members not to try to nobble the horse the country has chosen as its selection, but to take their beating like men, realising that the country is, as undoubtedly the country has been, behind the Government in the measures they have brought forward, and to assist in every effort that is being made to get the men.

I would ask the attention of the Government for a few minutes to a question of great and pressing importance. With reference to what the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just sat down has said, I hope it will not become a habit in this House to assume that everyone who raises any question about a difficulty is necessarily a man who does not desire that the Army should be equipped to its uttermost. I, at any rate, cannot be accused of having been associated with any group of Members. I voted for the Military Service Bill in all its stages, and supported the Government on several occasions when that matter was before the House. It is because I did so that I feel an additional responsibility in regard to the matter I am now placing before the House. I am speaking for my own Constituents, and I believe for the mass of the people of this country when I say that I believe they are willing to see applied any measure of compulsion which is proved to be necessary in order to provide the necessary number of troops, but what I assure the Government they will not stand and what rightly they will refuse to stand is the obtaining of men by a breach of faith. The Government must know there is a vastly growing feeling among the married men who have attested voluntarily that they are not being dealt with fairly. A great deal is heard at present of the cry, "Single men first." I see it is alleged that the pledge of the Government put in that form has been broken. I have no hesitation in saying that it is much too early to bring such a charge as that against the Government. Those married men who are apt to think that they have been let down on that particular matter, and the papers and others who are instigating the married men to take that view, are speaking much too soon.

There is, however, a class of married voluntary attestors who will have, and in fact at this moment have, a very distinct grievance. I refer to the married men who are in what are called "reserved occupations." The hon. and gallant Member opposite (Colonel Henderson) welcomed the suggestion that the Government should revise the reserved occupations. I know that the hon. and gallant Member has had a great deal of responsibility in connection with Lord Derby's scheme, and I hope he does not mean to suggest that the married men who attested voluntarily should be placed in a different position by reason of any change that is now being made in the reserved occupations. So far as single men are concerned, the question does not arise, because Parliament has placed every single man of a certain age under an obligation to serve. When, however, you come to the married men, the only married man who is under the legal obligation to serve is one who has attested. What Lord Derby's Recruiting Committee did, with the authority of the Government, was to say that there was a number of occupations in the country which were regarded as essential, but they still invited those who were in such occupations to attest, and said they would not be called up except under certain conditions. It is important that I should draw attention to the circular issued by the Local Government Board on the 19th November, which dealt with the position of those who were attested and who were in reserved occupations. It said this: then the local tribunal cannot deal with your case. They can only report upon it to the Central Appeal Tribunal." The House will remember that we are dealing with a man who has no legal obligation to serve. To my personal knowledge there are many scores of married men in reserved occupations who were in this frame of mind in November; they did not know whether it was their duty to join the Colours, give up their businesses, put on one side the claims of wife and children, or whether they should not attest. What I emphasise is—and those who know anything about the Derby scheme will bear me out—that even two days before the Derby scheme ended you could not get a clear answer from the Government as to whether or not men in reserved classes were to attest. Different answers were given by the different Departments. What did the married man say in a large number of cases? He said, "I have the offer that if I attest I shall not be called up unless the Central Tribunal, sitting in London, with the advice of a Government Department which knows my occupation, decides that the time has come when the claims of the Army upon me are stronger than the claims of my occupation." The married man said, "That is a risk I am willing to take; that is the guiding sign for which I am looking." The Government have now said to the married men who attested on these conditions, "Oh, you must go before the local tribunal like the rest. There is really no difference between a man in a reserved occupation and any other. You will not be able to get to the Central Tribunal, which the Government said was the only tribunal which should deal with you, unless the local tribunal consents." Can there be any doubt whatever that the Government have no right to depart from the contract into, which they entered with the married, voluntary, attested men in the reserved occupations?

I am very loth to interrupt my hon. Friend, because nobody recognises more than I do the strenuous part he has taken in the whole endeavour to get men, but he is really putting the case unfairly. It is not a case of a contract or a breach of faith or anything of the kind. It is a case of the substitution of one kind of machinery for another. During the Debates on the Bill the whole House urged on the Government, so far as I know without a single exception, that we should make the principles of that Bill apply to Derby men. It was quite obvious that there would be disadvantages as well as advantages. I am quite willing, and the Government are quite willing, to consider the case my hon. Friend has put, but I beg him not to base it on a breach of faith or a breach of pledge. It is really only the substitution of one method for another.

The right hon. Gentleman knows that I am the last man to accuse him—or, indeed, any Member of this Government—of a deliberate breach of faith, but I do say that owing to the tremendous confusion into which we have got and the rate at which we are going, even members of the Cabinet are unable to keep pace and really do not appreciate the changes which are taking place. I am bound to repeat, because it is important and it is on this ground that I base my claim, that if you said to the men in this country, "If you do a certain thing the House of Lords shall deside your case," and a man put himself into your hands and then you pass Acts of Parliament which do not deal with him because he is a married man and tell him, "You cannot go to the House of Lords at all now; your case shall be dealt with by the magistrates of some other Court," the right hon. Gentleman may think he is not damnified. Who is to decide that? You cannot change the conditions and then say it is not a breach of faith. You have got that man into your Army to-day, and you have got him in under certain conditions.

I put it to the Government that there are quite enough grievances going about already. I would beg of the Government not to manufacture grievances in this way. Do not put every married man who has attested in the position of being able to say, "You have let me down!" With great respect I would point out to the President of the Local Government Board that what has been done does not come under an Act of Parliament at all, because the Act of Parliament does not deal with married men. What is being done by the Government is a Departmental act. If I have not convinced the President of the Local Government Board that the Government are departing from, if he does not like the word "contract" I will say an arrangement with their own circulars made, I have only to assure him of it and I feel confident that he will to-day say, "If the married man who has attested prefers the arrangement we made with him when he came in, we will not alter it unless he gives us his consent." What is going on to-day is that these men are being taken before the local tribunal. I have personal knowledge that during the last week or ten days scores of these attested married men have gone before the local tribunal and their claim for exemption has been refused. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman knows why I am more concerned about this than many Members of the House. He knows it has come within my scope to give advice to a not very large but a fairly important class of the community, namely, the pharmacists of this country. They were put in a reserved class, and on the Government's own circulars I took it upon myself to advise those men to attest, saying they would not be required to run the gauntlet of the local tribunal, but that the decision would rest with the central tribunal. I got a letter from a man only two days ago, saying, "You asked me to do this, and I did it. What do I find? I have now been before the local tribunal. The chairman of that local tribunal is my rival, and the only rival I have in this town, and they have said, under his chairmanship, that I can be spared from this town." Of course he can, but that was not the risk that I asked that man to take. It was not the risk the Government asked him to take.

No, with great respect, it was not. This was a married man. The Government did not ask him to take that risk. The risk that I and the Government asked him to take was this: "If you are in a reserved occupation, all the military can do is to question whether you are or are not in a reserved occupation, and, if you are, whether you ought to be kept there. If the military have doubt about it, then you go to the local tribunal; they can ask the local tribunal to say whether you are in fact in a reserved class, and being there whether you ought to be allowed to remain there." In the case of a man in an unreserved class the local tribunal could decide it subject to appeal, but in the case of a man in a reserved class all that the local tribunal could do would be to make a report to the central tribunal, and there the matter would be dealt with with the aid of the Insurance Commissioners or other Government Department. I hope I have made it perfectly plain that there has been a difference, and that the Government will now give an undertaking that they will put this right at once. I cannot see why the Government should want an hour's time to think about it. My right hon. Friend (Mr. Tennant) has said there was a difficulty about doing it, but he will surely not tell me that the Government have any difficulty in keeping faith with these married men, because if they cannot keep faith, the alternative is that the married men must be given the right to be let off. I am quite sure the Government will find a way of keeping faith with these men and of saying to them, "You may still go straight, if you choose, to the central tribunal, and the present machinery which deals with men not in reserved classes shall not apply to you."

Before I sit down I want to make an apology to the President of the Local Government Board. When I was speaking on this Vote in Committee I referred to the case of the widow's son, and I said a circular had been issued by him in which it seemed to be clear that the only hardship which could arise was the monetary hardship. I made that statement and emphasised it once or twice. It is only fair to say I have since had my attention drawn to the full circular issued by the right hon. Gentleman, and I find that it is there made clear that there are other forms of hardship than the monetary hardship. I thought it was only right that I should say that that was so. Having said that, I want on this other point to call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to a case which I felt it necessary to bring up on Thursday. We were dealing with such cases as the last member of a family, and I mentioned the case of a man who had three sons, two of whom had been killed in the War, and he thought there should be some postponement before his last boy was called. That seemed to me to meet with sympathy in the Committee, and the right hon. Gentleman asked me to withdraw my Amendment, and the Government Amendment, covering a number of this sort of cases, was put in with the object of meeting those cases. I want to point out that the case which I referred to on Thursday is the case of a man who came before the Lewes Tribunal, and he is the fifth son of a widow. One went down in Torpedo-boat A, another was killed in France, and two others are serving in France; that accounts for four of them. The fifth son applied to the tribunal and exemption was refused. I think the Government is entitled to say, "Why has he not appealed?" But the majority of the public do not know their rights in regard to appeal. There is nothing on the paper which tells him that, and they are only given three days in which to do it, and it may well be that this widow and her boy did not know. But that does not touch the point. The right hon. Gentleman will admit that this House of Commons, expressly, deliberately, after full discussion, put into the Bill a ground of exemption which was to cover that particular case. There can be no doubt about that. The Government cannot shelter themselves behind the tribunal. If they have got that boy in the Army it is the duty of the War Office to release him if the mother still desires that he should come out. But the Government have got him, and the Government cannot carry out their pledge to this House, and the intentions of the House of Commons cannot be carried out, if they keep him. I hope the Government will give us an assurance about this specific point of the men in the reserved classes, for I for one feel that the honour of the Government is at stake, and the honour of this House of Commons is at stake, and what is equally important to me, perhaps, my own honour is at stake; and I for one am determined that nothing on earth, as far as I can help it, shall prevent these men being put in the position they were in the day after they attested.

I have great sympathy with the complaint made by my hon. Friend opposite—that is to say, I have sympathy with him to a certain extent. I think he mentioned some very good points. I am very glad I have had an opportunity of saying a word before the right hon. Gentleman replies, because if the reply was confined to the two or three points mentioned by my hon. Friend opposite it would be much too narrow, and I think we want a great deal more from the Government in regard to this matter. There is no use concealing that the Government have got into a great muddle with regard to this matter of recruiting. My hon. Friend did not help us when we were criticising the Military Service Act, and it was owing to that Act that all the difficulty has arisen. Now he mentions the grievances of his particular friends, and we have been worried in this House with particular grievances. Everyone has a grievance, every tribunal is shocking someone, and I think the time has come when we might fairly ask the Government to deal with the matter. I want to call attention to a statement of the President of the Local Board which I think is the beginning of the difficulty. My right hon. Friend said:

"I have the authority of the Minister for War for stating that this Bill will give him all the men he requires for victory."

That was said when the Bill was before the House. But what did Lord Kitchener himself say in another place with regard to this matter? He now says:

"Even if this Act had given us all the men expected, we should still require a good deal more."

There, I think, is the difficulty in which the House of Commons is placed. The Government is not consistent in its statements, and did not introduce a broad policy which was adequate to meet the difficulty which was created. In face of the public discussion that is going on outside it is impossible to conceal that the Government is in a considerable dilemma. The "Times," which has been supporting the policy of Conscription from the beginning, yesterday morning devoted itself to this matter, and I read an article commencing with these words:

"It is idle to pretend that all is well with recruiting."

Surely things ought to be put right with recruiting, when we are in the midst of a great War of this sort, as quickly as possible; and a policy ought to be announced, and this is the day, it strikes me, on which a policy ought to be announced, which will bring to an end the uncertainty which is distracting everyone with regard to this matter. For my own part, I say now again which I said before, that this seems to me to be a most invidious agitation between the married and the single men. If the Government were going to deal with the question it ought to have brought in a Bill on a much wider basis than it did. We have all this invidious agitation between married and single, and yet the House never discussed this principle why single men should go before married men and whether it is good for the nation that all the single men should incur the risk any more than the married men. Now it goes further and, according to my hon. Friend opposite it is a question between "the married man who has attested and the married man who has not attested.

Of course not. I will do my hon. Friend justice in that. He is generally very clear with the House. He brings forward one small point and makes it tremendously clear that he has covered the whole horizon. I do not object to that point being dealt with, but I want a broader statement from the Government in regard to policy than can be given in dealing with the points my hon. Friend raised. I think the difficulty of the Government is the one I pointed out when we were discussing the matter before. I said then that the mistake the Government was making was relying on the figures which were given in the Derby Report, and in assuming, as the right hon. Gentleman assumed, that these would be all the men who were needed. It has been a disappointment. I might almost go the length of saying it has been a fraud. A hundred times when the Debate was going on we heard that the only object was to get the men who were dealt with in that Report. The number was given at 651,000. I said I did not believe it was 100,000. I believe the result has shown that we who criticised the figures were perfectly right, and now the Government admit, both in this House and in another place, that they must go elsewhere to seek for the men, so they are going into the reserved occupations in the first place, and we hear that every man who can be spared must be taken from munitions, must be taken from commerce, from mines, and from railways. There is an old proverb that you cannot get blood out of a milestone. You cannot get enough single men to meet the immense demands that, as far as I can see, the Government are making. Take the total number of single men in the country. I believe there are only about 4,000,000, and some deduction must be made from that figure for Ireland, which is not included in the Act. When you deduct from that figure the large number of unfit men, how can you get from your search through the ranks of single men the vast requirements of the Government? I do think the gentlemen who are in favour of Conscription in this House ought to pursue a more honest policy. We who are opposed to Conscription were charged with keeping back men from the Army when we said a word about the invidious character of the Military Service Bill. What do we see to-day? We see supporters of the Bill making excuses for married men not being called upon to come forward. We hear these excuses not only in this House, but elsewhere. I went into another place the other day, and I heard Lord Derby, the great breezy recruiter of the country. I expected to find some broad, honest statement of the requirements of the country from Lord Derby, but I heard nothing but a series of excuses which stood in the way of calling upon the married men to do their duty. Every hon. Member in this House who has made statements on the point, both on this side as well as the other side, seem to me to adopt the same policy.

It is time we spoke plainly about the matter. What is the reason hon. Members are pressing the matter? What is the reason that there was such an invidious agitation about single men, and what is the reason now that the married men have got so many friends? The reason is simply this: that the single man was largely a voteless man. The single man, broadly speaking, throughout the country had not a vote. In many cases they were only mere boys, and this House treated them, I think, with great severity. But the married man is a voter, and he is holding meetings and carrying on an agitation, and the Government is shrinking in face of that agitation and is frightened, and is afraid to put forward any definite policy in regard to it. I do not wish to under-estimate the difficulties of the married men, but I would point out that the single man has difficulties also. I do think that the time has come when we ought to have some definite statement from the Government as to the policy which they intend to pursue. I do not believe that the House can go much further without knowing something of the number of men required, and the number of men the Government have got. I believe the Government is going a great deal too far with the policy of secrecy. We know how many men have been got in Ireland, and we know how many men have come from each one of our Colonies. I think the Government ought to face the question as to whether a clear and definite statement should not be made to the House of Commons which would give the total number of men they have got and the number they really require. I think, under those circumstances, they might depend upon Members doing their patriotic duty in this emergency. I noticed in the article in the "Times" from which I have quoted these words: That is the opinion of the "Times," and I believe every sensible person who is thinking seriously of this matter at the present time feels that the moment has come when the facts ought to be disclosed to a far greater extent than they have been disclosed by the Government. While there may be disadvantages about too great openness, it is clear that there is disadvantage about so much secrecy. I think the time has come when the Government ought to consider whether the House of Commons ought to be dealt with in a more candid way.

The complaints about the tribunals are so numerous that I hardly like to add to them, but I have received so many letters from my own Constituents that I was obliged to promise that I would bring one or two cases forward. I am referring to the Islington Tribunal. I have six letters this morning, all protesting about the unfair questions that are being asked of the men who come up. I admit the good intentions of my right hon. Friend (Mr. Long), but I am afraid he did not give sufficiently clear instructions to the tribunals to imitate as far as they possibly could the judicial tribunals of this country. The general tribunals of this country have a splendid reputation, as good a reputation as tribunals in any country, but I must say that these unhappy tribunals that have been set up under this Act have not such a reputation.

I think it is better to speak quite plainly. The right hon. Gentleman thinks, perhaps, it is not fair to make this reflection upon the tribunals.

I do not want to do anything that is not fair, but I do say that the tribunals are exciting a great deal of local hostility. The hon. Member opposite has been one of the most faithful supporters of the Government in this matter. What was it that lashed him into fury? Why, the proceedings of these tribunals. In addition to the fact of the married men being the voters, there is a second point which is influencing them in holding back, and I think it is what is going on in the tribunals. They are afraid to go before them. They are not satisfied with the constitution of the tribunals, or the justice they will receive there, and I think the matter ought to be cleared up. In regard to the Islington Tribunal I will take four cases. One is that of an insurance agent, an only son, who allows his mother 14s., and he is the only support of his mother. Application refused. I can quite understand that the right hon. Gentleman is impatient. [Mr. LONG: "NO, no !"] He may well be impatient. I should be impatient if I were in his place when these cases are always being brought forward, and the Government are in the unhappy position that they cannot give effect to their own promises. That was the point of the speech of the hon. Member (Mr. Glyn-Jones). He appealed to the Government to do what they promised. The fact is the Government are caught in a trap. They cannot do what they promised. Nothing could be more definite than their promise in regard to the matter of the only sons. The Prime Minister said that the case of an only son who is the support of his parents should be considered. It has not been considered, and no one seems to say how it is to be dealt with. Another case from the Islington Tribunal is that of an assistant in a business. Again he is an only son, and the only support of his parents. I have four cases of only sons, and all were refused exemption. I think that the proceedings of the tribunals require to be carefully watched by the Government. So far as I am concerned, and I think so far as every hon. Member is concerned, we would all be glad to see the thing running more smoothly than it does. Those who, like myself, do not approve of the principle of the Act are very sorry to have to indulge in so much criticism of it.

There is one other tribunal about which I must speak, and that is what is called the House of Commons tribunal. It struck me as a very strange thing that there should be a House of Commons tribunal. I do not think that was ever brought before the House of Commons, and that any authority for the setting up of that tribunal was given in this House. It meets, I understand, in one of our rooms, and the Deputy-Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr. Maclean) is chairman of that tribunal. He made a speech at the opening of the tribunal to which I should like to call attention.

I am quoting from a very intelligent paper, about the first meeting of this tribunal at the House of Commons. I am quoting from the "Westminster Gazette."

I am very glad to hear it, I do not think the proceedings of that tribunal would do very much credit to the House of Commons, therefore I am very glad we have nothing to do with it. However, the Deputy-Chairman of Ways and Means is chairman of that tribunal, and he used these words in a little speech at the commencement of the proceedings:

"Parties were not precluded from being represented by counsel or by solicitors, but this practice, should certainly not be encouraged."

The law allows parties to-be represented, and I think any privilege which the law gives should not be refused by any tribunal masquerading in the name of the House of Commons. I do not think people should be lectured in this way. The chairman went on to say:

"The tribunal confines itself to ascertaining the facts."

I think that is a deplorable statement. The tribunal should mainly try to administer the law. The fault I find with nearly all these tribunals is that they have not studied the Act. I do not think, as a general rule, they know what their main duty is. It is to grant exemptions, and not to refuse them in the wholesale way in which they do refuse them.

Oh, no. I do not want to be caught in a trap like that. I quite approve of the tribunals getting at the facts, but I do not want them to stop at that. I want them to administer the law, and I think there is room for a great improvement in that way. I think it is time that this matter was settled. We see references to it in the "Times" newspaper and other newspapers. We see it stated that a conference was held at the War Office, and that nothing was settled, and that nothing is known.

I am glad to hear that everything is settled. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will be able to make a statement. He will understand that I have been going a little by gossip. I am giving him what was said in the "Times" newspaper. The "Times" said that nothing was settled, and they took a rather hopeless view of the speech which my right hon. Friend is going to deliver. I do not take that view myself. The "Times" said that the Government would have nothing to say this afternoon. I believe that my right hon. Friend has something of interest to say—[Mr. Long: "Hear, hear !"]—and that he will be able to make a statement which will clear up the whole matter and will rejoice everyone in the House.

Strategy being for strategists, and there being gallant Members of both Services in the House, I do not propose to follow the hon. Member for Lanarkshire (Mr. Pringle) in his comprehensive survey of warfare in general and this War in particular. But history is common ground, and I would like to say that the whole of the hon. Member's argument is based upon a most complete fallacy and a complete unacquaintance with the history of this country at the time of the Napoleonic wars. I submit that at that time England was not a small military Power. Everything is comparative. The Armies of England at the time of the Napoleonic wars were not negligible. They were, in the contrary, quite comparable with those of Continental Powers, whereas the position now is that we had a negligible Army in point of numbers. It is also not true that the Navy completed the war on that occasion. Without the Army, the war would never have been brought to an end. But I do not rise to ask the House to listen to me following the hon. Member through a complete survey of every circumstance connected with the War. I wish to ask the President of the Local Government Board to say a word or two about the married men. This question has been exhausted by other hon. Members, and it is only out of duty to my Constituents that I am referring to it.

6.0 P.M.

My Constituency has, notoriously, recruited well and admirably, not only large numbers, but men who have distinguished themselves in the field, and have got Victoria Crosses and other decorations. There is no question in regard to Nottingham men of anything like shirking, and the married men for whom I speak have no desire to avoid service; on the contrary, they are proud to go. Nor am I a critic of the Government, who is either a sniper or a whimperer, but I must say in justice to my friends that I do think there may be circumstances—I am not speaking of anything like fraud—under which the married men who have attested do not occupy the position they should. Circumstances have placed them in such a position that they are prejudiced by having come forward and attested. These men are not in so good a position as others in similar positions who did not attest. The need for men is great. Even now I am not pleading that anybody should be excused. I should like to see everybody bound to go, up to and including men of my own age, but I am bound to say that I do think that the married men—I am speaking now by desire of many of them—have really cause for complaint, and until the Government have hunted out single men who are occupied in reserved occupations and have really brought about such a position that only a negligible number of eligible single men have not gone to the front, I do submit that the married men who have attested are prejudiced and have not been placed in such a position as I think they were led to believe they would occupy. Nothing would solve the difficulty but the introduction of universal military service, which should be regarded as an honour by every man and not as a burden. I know the difficulties in which the Government are placed, but I think that under the existing law the Government can, at any rate, abstain from calling up further groups of married men, until they have satisfied what I consider to be the perfectly legitimate criticism in this respect.

I beg my right hon. Friend to consider this. He can be quite certain that I have no sympathy with the policy of some hon. Gentlemen in this respect. Some 10,000 conscientious objectors have come forward. With great respect for them, I have no respect for the conscientious objectors, and when the tribunals say what they consider to be harsh things about them I can only say that the truth will out even in an affidavit, and that the tribunals are simply expressing what is public opinion on this subject. In Coventry I understand that there are 13,000 starred men, many of them single men. These things cannot be right; something should be done to right them. In Leicester it is urged that the mobilisation of married men should be suspended until this question is righted. I must join my voice with theirs. I do not wish for indefinite postponement. But I do feel that some very drastic step must be taken to satisfy the feelings of the married men, who, having come forward, find themselves prejudiced by their loyal and patriotic conduct.

Hon. Members have referred to the agitation by what is called the Simonites. I suppose that that is a Parliamentary expression. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow when he last spoke seemed to be rather like John Wilkes, who said that he never was a Wilkite, and he seemed to demur to being considered a Simonite himself. But at any rate he is the super-Simonite, the leader of the party. I join my hon. and gallant Friend behind in what he said just now in begging the right hon. Gentleman, whatever may or may not be his intentions, to reflect on the effects of his campaign. It is impossible to see a man of his brilliant ability sitting on the Back Bench there in the company in which he is without thinking of what was said of a poet:

I have thought throughout this Debate that the attitude of criticism of the Government has been far too acrimonious and censorious and on many occasions absolutely unjustified. No one has taken into account the outstanding fact that it is not only one party—one party may have been more responsible: I think it was—that was responsible for our not being prepared for this great conflict. It is utterly useless to criticise the Government as if they ought to have been ready with an Army equal to the occasion. It could not have been, expected of them. It would be perfectly absurd to criticise them as if it could have been. I came into the House the other day and heard an hon. Friend of mine delivering a speech. I listened for a few minutes and found that he was condemning wholesale a service of which I have heard nothing but praise in my private and official capacity ever since the War began. That is the Medical Service in France. I believe it to have been perfectly admirable. But if a service, which is believed by common consent to have been admirable, is subject to such destructive criticism, then that destroys the value of criticism which is levelled against aspects of management which do require to be condemned.

I desire to say some words as to the campaign in Mesopotamia. Heaven forbid that I should discuss the question of strategy. I did not come into the House a ready-made exponent of strategy like the hon. Member for Lanark, but I know Mesopotamia. I have been over the ground occupied by our Army and the ground through which the Russians are now marching from the uplands of Persia down to the plains of Mesopotamia. I have not heard any criticism which has been levelled against the Mesopotamian Campaign which is based on any knowledge of the extraordinary difficulties in which that campaign is being conducted. For the life of me I cannot make out why it went beyond Busra. But I do not wish to discuss that. The Government of India may be really responsible for it, and if that were so that alone should blunt the sword of criticism against the Government. The climate is of the worst kind. No country is so wet; no country is so dry; no country is so cold; and no country is so hot. As you go about in ordinary times Arabs will fire off guns for the sheer pleasure of shooting at you. I confess that I am not surprised that the medical organisation to some extent broke down. That so much should have been done in the circumstances is really extraordinary. We are told now that the Russians are coming down from the east, and I hope that they will be able to attack the flank of the Turks. They are now within 140 miles of Bagdad, and about 240 from our troops.

So difficult is this country to operate in, and so gallant and successful are the operations of the Russians, that I may be excused for describing what is the nature of the country through which they have to come. There is a narrow defile in which they descend some 5,000 feet. I myself, travelling on a camel, through the night in that defile, found myself and one or two other camels with me in a little caravan—[Laughter.] If hon. Gentlemen are of opinion that a caravan means a menagerie box they are mistaken. It means a collection of camels. [An HON. MEMBER: "You said, yourself and other camels."] I do not care; camels are very valuable and admirable animals. But we got among a caravan with corpses slung on each side of donkeys, corpses which were to be buried at Kerbela, near Bagdad, and it took the whole night to get through that caravan of corpses. And when we think of the troops that have to come down a place like that, to take the flank of the Turks, as our gallant Allies are doing, we should be the first to admit that they are doing wonders, and that we, perhaps, are not doing quite as badly as has been represented in some quarters. That is the impression which has been made on myself by the criticism which I have heard in the course of this Debate. The hon. Member for Lanark was very strong upon the fact that we should rely upon the Navy and not upon the Army. But those who say that now never did anything to increase or keep up the Navy. It was the reduction of the Navy that was always their policy.

The only matter which remains is one in which we are all interested—the defence of particular cities from air raids. I confess that I do not know what it is the Government are doing. I do not believe that there is any use now in attempting to build a fleet of Zeppelins, and I think that every airman and every airship in this country should be at the front attacking the Germans and their aerodromes, or whatever they are called, where these murderous craft are kept. But it is a fact that considerable doubts exist in cities in the Midlands as to what should be done. I see that in some cases it is considered that no notice should be given. My hon. Friend the Member for Brentford (Mr. Joynson-Hicks) said to-day that notice should be given when a raid was approaching. I should have thought so too. But I observed that at a meeting the other day on the subject it was decided that no notice should be given when a raid was imminent and neither were lights to be cut off at the source. I understand that the cutting off of lights at the source was the reason why various cities escaped on the occasion of the last big air raid. I believe it to be an extremely successful and admirable policy. But I understand that in Birmingham now a contrary policy is advocated, and I understand also that there is a difficulty as to responsibility and control. Some cities in the Midlands are in this respect practically under the control of others many miles distant. I confess that I do not know what should be done, and when I listen to air experts I do not know any more than before. The hon. Member for Hertfordshire (Mr. Pemberton Billing) has not thrown any sufficient light on the subject. Neither did the Noble Lord in the other place. But at any rate there might be some instruction generally in force on this subject, or some advice of general acceptance given, instead of leaving those concerned in doubt as to whether it is the right thing to cut off lights from the main or whether it is not the right thing to cut lights off from the main, or whether it is right or not right to advertise the fact that a visit of enemy airships is anticipated. I understand that anti-aircraft guns are to be introduced into the big Midland cities. To some extent that has been done. But I know one place where airguns are being stored and shrapnel is the only ammunition they have. I believe it is admitted—I am not speaking from any knowledge at all—that shrapnel is useless against Zeppelins, which require a much higher explosive. The Wax Office has not taken steps to supply such higher explosive.

It would be very undesirable that it should be done.

I trust my right hon. Friend, when he comes to address the House, will say what is to be done or what can be done. All I can say is that those who are anxious to help themselves and to make arrangements find themselves in this somewhat undesirable state of doubt. I really do not know what can be done, and I must confess we cannot overlook the fact that it is extremely difficult to devise any proper protection; nevertheless, the fact still remains that there is a great deal of feeling among a great many of the inhabitants of our great inland cities, and, if the Under-Secretary for War will press the matter upon his Noble Friend, I shall be very much obliged to him.

I think one of the most extraordinary incidents we have seen in the course of this Debate was the hon. Gentleman's reference to the right hon. Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon). The hon. Gentleman expressed regret and surprise that the right hon. Member for Walthamstow should have found it necessary to change his position in this House. There might be ground for his having done so, but for the hon. Member for Nottingham to express his regret and surprise is, in my opinion, most extraordinary.

I suppose the hon. Gentleman is under the impression that there are no Members in this House who remember how he changed his position.

I did not reproach the right hon. Member for Walthamstow for having changed his position.

I thought the hon. Member expressed regret and surprise, but I leave the matter to him. I want to refer to the position in which this country will very rapidly find itself if the tribunals which have been appointed all over the country continue forcing men into the Army without the slightest consideration for our other national needs. The Army is to consist of four million men, and a large number of men are to be called up because there are all kinds of leakages to be constantly supplied. The Minister of Munitions a few months ago stated in this House that it was absolutely necessary that we should keep up our export trade as far as possible in order to check the balance of exchange against us in other parts of the world, especially in the United States. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty said here, only a few days ago, that we could not get the necessary ships for the Admiralty for the conduct of the War or to do the necessary work in connection with our ship-building because there was a shortage of men. But now we find tribunals sitting all over the country and driving men into the Army in defiance, I believe, of the very regulations that have been instituted by the Government. The Government realised the position, and they found it necessary for the Board of Trade to draw up a list of trades, the workers in which were to be considered as exempt as from military service, not in the interests of the particular workers, but in the interest of the nation. A list of those trades has been supplied to these tribunals all over the country. What has been the position? Notices were posted in the streets appealing to the men to come and join the Derby scheme, so that they could attest and could go before the local tribunals and declare that they were working in trades which were necessary to the national interests. This was done in order to save the times of the tribunals and of the military authorities, and so that those who attested could be dispensed with so far as any further inquiry was concerned.

What has happened? These men have appeared before the local committees and in scarcely a county have any of them been starred at all. A military representative attends each tribunal, and what takes place before those tribunals is in absolute contradiction of what was conveyed by the posters which were put upon the walls. I do not think that the War Office ever intended that such a condition of things as that to which I refer should obtain. Let me call attention to what took place in some districts. For instance, a man applied at Lewisham for exemption on the ground that he was carrying on a business which it had taken him many years to build up, and in which he had a very considerable capital invested. The tribunal said they were satisfied that his case was proved, and they gave him a month's exemption, which, as the chairman pointed out, would mean that it would be three months before he had to come before them again. The military representative at that tribunal, who seemed to occupy the position almost of dictator, stepped forward and said that he agreed on condition that the man disposed of his lease within the next month. The applicant refused the condition and put in an appeal. Two or three days afterwards he received a letter from the tribunal informing him that they had decided in his favour and that it was not necessary for him to appeal. The decision in his favour meant that he was to dispose of his lease in four weeks, and thus destroy the work of years in order that he might go and fight the Germans, and, if he did not get killed, come back to destitution. He could not regard that is a decision in his favour, and he came to me, and I, in consequence, put a question on the Paper. What was the result? The tribunal informed the President of the Local Government Board that they had decided to forward the man's appeal for further consideration; in other words, they reversed their decision.

I desire to refer to another case, that of a Constituent of mine, who, I may say, in passing, is a political opponent. He happens to be engaged in the lubricating oil trade. He applied in the ordinary way to the Bermondsey Tribunal, and got put back ten groups because he was engaged in a reserved trade. Later on fresh regulations appeared, and he then went to the tribunal of the district where he lived, and there saw the military representative, whom he told that he was in a starred trade. The military representative said, "You are not in a starred trade; you are not a lubricating oil manufacturer." The Board of Trade, however, regarded the definition "lubricating oil manufacturer" as a reasonable one, but this military representative did not. No man makes lubricating oil any more than he makes coal, but the Board made the definition, and on this reasonable definition the man made his application to be starred, which the military representative opposed. "Very well," said the man, "I will go before my Bermondsey Tribunal, where I appeared before, and was put back ten groups." The military representative said, "I shall communicate at once with the Bermondsey Tribunal and get the case transferred to this district," and under that threat of coercion the man was forced to leave the district where he was entitled to have his case heard in order to be transferred to a district where the military representative was particularly anxious to be present. These are two very clear cases indeed. Under the Regulations issued by the Local Government Board anyone who appears before the tribunal is entitled to have legal assistance, but the Regulations also say that this practice must be discouraged. A man goes before a tribunal, and there he sees the military representative, who is constantly putting points which have for their aim the defeat of the applicant's object. The applicant is probably a man who had never had a case of the kind in his life before, and if he attempts to go into the Court with legal assistance his attempt is to be discouraged. Does not that clearly mean that if an applicant came to the Court having provided for himself legal aid, he will be prejudiced before his case has been commenced to be heard? I submit that it can have no other interpretation.

I believe that many of the proceedings in these Courts are without the approval of the Local Government Board or of the War Office, but, at the same time, they are going on, and I should like to ask the Under-Secretary for War how he can reconcile his position with that state of facts. He gave the answer to a question which I put this afternoon, that the military representative was right in contending that a lubricating oil manufacturer could not be exempt, because there was no such thing in this country at all. How can the right hon. Gentleman reconcile that with the fact that the Board of Trade has decided that there is such a thing in this country, and that workers in that particular trade should be exempt? I think the position is a most extraordinary one, and that the President of the Board of Trade should either at once withdraw that particular trade from the list or, if there be such a trade as that of lubricating oil manufacturer, then the Under-Secretary for War must withdraw his decision, because necessarily it must be an erroneous one. I do not know how long we are going to have these things occurring in these Courts, but I do think that proper legal assistance ought to be provided for all those who ask for it, and I think it ought to be provided at the expense of the country. I think it is a very wrong thing that applicants should be taken to these Courts under such conditions. They are often nervous and trembling; many of them with ruin staring them in the face if the decision should be against them. They are at the mercy of the military representative, who frequently brow-beats the Court as well as the applicant, and tries as far as possible, without any sense of justice or reason, to force every man into the Army, even though his case may be a good one, and one in which the decision may mean the applicant's ruin, and he does this while ignoring our other national needs and circumstances.

I think the hon. Member for Mid Lanark (Mr. Pringle) is quite entitled from his point of view to be treated with courtesy and tolerance in the views which he expressed. I hope he will not think it inconsistent with that declaration if I say that he struck me as being something of a monopolist. He claimed in regard to Salonika and the Dardanelles and Mesopotamia that he had the General Staff on his side. I think he makes a further claim in regard to his advocacy of the exemption of the widow's son and the conscientious objector that he is on the side of the angels. I think the combination of a lawyer with the soldiers and the angels clearly indicates that be ought to be on the Treasury Bench when the next Government is being formed. He proceeded to speak, showing that he was under the domination of phrase of "the deadlock" in the West. I think there is too much made of phrases. I do not believe in this deadlock theory, and I do not think that any great soldier has any belief in it either. The time will so come when the numbers are so worn down that the so called deadlock will end, and I believe that this is the strategy of the generals in whom we have absolute confidence in the French Army and our own Army. We have on several occasions shown ourselves to be ruled by those phrases. There was the phrase to which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Brighton made reference and which was used by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon). I think that was to the effect of allowing things to go on with the play of natural forces, which is only a variant of what we had from the Minister of Munitions about the silver bullet at an earlier date. I cannot see the relevance of arguments connected with the maintenance of our exports at a time when we are engaged in a war which is costing something like two thousand millions per year while the exports amount to about four hundred millions per year. It stands to reason, therefore, that everything should be concentrated on the winning of the War so as to do so as speedily as possible.

The speech of the hon. Member for Mid-Lanark consisted of more or less good history and more or less good logic, a good deal of less rather than more. My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham (Sir J.D. Rees) dealt with one aspect of that speech, and I should like to refer to another where he said we were weakening our Navy by taking part in military affairs on the Continent. I do not think there could be any greater weakening of the Navy than to allow the German armies to acquire more and more territory and to possess themselves of more and more resources, and ultimately of the Channel ports. I think if that were allowed to go on it might ultimately result in a time in which the Navy would be relatively very seriously weakened owing to the wonderful organising powers which the Germans would bring to bear on the resources they would have captured. The hon. and gallant Member for Brighton (Captain Tryon), in his criticism of the Government, dwelt most on delays. I think he is justified. I cannot myself understand how the Government could come to any other decision than to adopt compulsion once they knew of the great Russian retreat. That was in last May, and it was not until July that we got the National Register, and it was not until August we got the National Register put into force, it was not until November we got the promise to the married men, and it was not until January that we got compulsion adopted, and now we have come full swing in a vicious circle to this question of the married men and to the question whether we should adopt compulsion whole-heartedly. I myself agree with those speakers who have urged that we should adopt compulsion, and even with my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, that we should adopt compulsion for all classes and all ages in this country. It is the only fair system which will get you out of all this bickering as to whether this or that class is being treated unfairly.

This question of exemptions is a very old question. First I would say that the arguments I have heard in the House resolved themselves into three classes, namely, how to get the men, whether we are making the best use of the men, and how many men we require. The question of how to get the men is a battle which rages chiefly round exemptions. It is a very important question, and, indeed, a very old question. It was the one by which the Roman Empire may practically said to have fallen. In those days the patricians owned a great quantity of land, and they vied with each other as to the number of men they maintained on the estates. All those men maintained on the estates of the patricians were exempted. There were also an innumerable number of men who found their way into monastic orders. Those two classes were roughly the equivalent of the great army of men employed by employers to-day and the army of conscientious objectors who object to military service altogether. It is worth recalling, at this stage, that the Roman Empire fell because of the large numbers of the men that were exempted and who were not available for the national army. The married man question, too, is a very old question. I turned up some State tracts of the time of William III. only the other day, and in 1696 I found there was a suggested Act of Conscription, of which Clause 4 read:

There is, furthermore, the question as to the proper use of the men. I cannot resist having the suspicion that far too many men are being employed on the defensive and have been transferred to Egypt for defensive purposes. I would not mind if they were merely gathered there for the purpose of being used elsewhere. Too many men are also kept in this country. It seems to me if we bad a force of 300,000 men in Egypt, using that figure for the purposes of argument, for defensive purposes, and if the Russians had pursued the same course in the Caucasus, then a force of 300,000 Turks between those two other forces would have immobilised 600,000 soldiers, and all that Germany would be using would be a few staff officers. That defensive policy is one which will always lose a war. I do hope and trust that this country is going to go in much more vigorously for an offensive policy in which the requirements are studied. The hon. Member for Lanark referred to our traditional policy. If there is a traditional policy in this country it is that this country goes in for many military expeditions, and the fault has been that too few men have been sent to carry them out. That is what the country complains of. I am not sure about the conduct of the strategy of the War by the Army Council. One reason that makes me uncertain is this: When the Prime Minister was addressing the House about the Gallipoli Expedition he justified that expedition as it stood then on the grounds that it prevented Bulgaria from entering the War and that it had kept the Turks tied to Gallipoli and had prevented them from overwhelming the Russians in the Caucasus and our Mesopotamia expedition, and also from invading Egypt successfully. That is rather a tall order. It almost forces the criticism one makes when it is said that one should study, not as Lord Salisbury recommended, large-scale maps, but small-scale maps, which will take in such a vast area of warfare. As a matter of fact I believe that Bulgaria is in this War because of the failure of the Gallipoli Expedition, and that the Bulgarian military attachés reported long before we evacuated Gallipoli that we were bound to be defeated there, and on that report the Bulgarians entered the War. According to Sir Ian Hamilton we had 95,000 bayonets opposed to 110,000 Turks. How could that number of men affect the War in the Caucasus and Mesopotamia and many hundreds of miles in another direction, or so far as Egypt is concerned?

As a matter of fact, I think it would be generally agreed that the whole use of an Army behind sea power consists in this: that in, say, the eastern basin of the Mediterranean it would occupy interior positions at some available place where wharfage could be easily obtained and from which they could be readily embarked. An Army in such an interior position, as opposed to a nation with a single line of railway working along the outside coastline, would threaten many hundreds of miles of Turkish, European, and Asiatic coasts. Therefore, without being employed at all in actual fighting, that Army of, say, 300,000 men might immobilise some 500,000 or 600,000 Turks ion the defensive, because they do not know where it is going to strike. That I believe to be the most important doctrine of the use of our amphibious power in connection with Armies. There comes a time, when the matter has been clearly thought out, when the Army does strike and is able to strike successfully because the enemy forces are separated on the defensive. There were before the Government only three methods of securing the military power required for this War. They could have asked the Japanese Government to name its terms for the Japanese Armies to serve in Europe. They could, if they had liked, at the very beginning of the War, when they sent munitions up to Archangel, have brought back Russian troops, armed them at this end, organised them in English or in French territory, and gradually accumulated an Army of Russians. That would have been a long process. The one method most in keeping with the traditions of the English people, a nation with a great past, which has in vision a great present and which looks forward to a greater future, was to face its own obligations and to spend every man and every pound it could to win this War.

My hon. and gallant Friend (Commander Bellairs) will forgive me if I do not follow him either in the interesting historical researches which he gave to the House in the earlier part of his speech, or in his concluding references to the best way in which to win this War by a wiser use of our troops. My hon. and gallant Friend speaks with high authority on this subject, and I am sure that if by any untoward event anything should deprive us of the services of that distinguished soldier, Sir William Robertson, after my hon. and gallant Friend's speech we shall know where to look for a successor. I hope he will forgive me if I do not follow him on these questions of high military command, with which I am really not competent to deal, and which I hope the House of Commons will never decide in Debate. I hope that no Government will ever adopt the policy of interference in this way with the discretion and the control of military policy by our great generals and of naval policy by our great admirals. This has been an interesting Debate, and it has been conducted throughout in a spirit wholly worthy of the House of Commons. It was opened by the hon. Member for Lanark (Mr. Pringle), who complained that the Government had never met the argument of the right hon. Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon). Unfortunately, the argument which the hon. Member attributed to the right hon. Member for Walthamstow has never been addressed to this House by that right hon. Gentleman. His speech was devoted to a totally different aspect of the case, and, so far as it required a reply, was dealt with by more than one speaker in a previous Debate. The argument of the hon. Member for Lanark is a very different one. The hon. Member has put before the House and the country a case which he is perfectly entitled to put, and he did it in an extremely able and a very fair manner. I entirely disagree with the views which the hon. Member holds. The Government and, I believe, the vast majority of the people of the country entirely disagree with those views, but because we disagree with them, because we think they are wholly wrong, because we think if they were adopted they would lead to disaster instead of to the success which we are determined to obtain, that is no reason why we should deny him an audience, or ascribe to him anything but right motives in putting his case before the House of Commons. What does my hon. Friend argue to-night? It is that compulsion is wrong, that it is a principle which the House of Commons ought never to have adopted, on the ground that, as he argues, you are going to Prussianise this country, you are going to drive your military advisers into extreme measures, because the moment they know that they have compulsion and therefore can get as many soldiers as they require, there will be no curb upon their actions, and you will militarise your country and its institutions. I never heard an argument, adroitly addressed to the House as it was, based upon more slender foundations. You are not going to Prussianise a country because you take power to do that which you think is necessary for the defence of that country. The answer to the hon. Member's argument is that so long as the Government of this country is carried on as it has been now for generations, there is no fear that whatever power you give to your military Departments, they will oust the civil control, or turn the general government of the country into militarism. If that is the only argument that can be advanced against compulsion, in my judgment the case for compulsion is established beyond question, and it becomes almost unnecessary to defend it.

The hon. Member for Brighton (Captain Tryon), in one of his brilliant speeches, which delighted all who heard it, made a vigorous case for the cause which he holds dear, and he did it without giving the smallest cause of offence to any of those who differ from him. My hon. Friend, in his powerful speech, took another line. We are condemned by those who oppose compulsion for our adoption of that system, and our application of its methods; and we are attacked by others— my hon. Friend to wit—for, as he said, not having the courage of our convictions, and for seeking to justify our action by the old and unworthy excuse that "it is only a little one." I do not think I have been absent from any serious part of the Debates on this subject, and I am not prepared to admit that that charge lies with justice against His Majesty's Government. We have not sought to deny that we have adopted compulsion; we have not sought to deny that we have got it, and that it is compulsion pure and simple. The argument that we have sought to whittle it down, based upon our action in regard to exemptions and exceptions, is historically unsound. We have had compulsion before in this country, and when we had it before what was put into the Act of Parliament? A cumbrous list of exemptions and exceptions, taking up two or three pages of that old Statute. [An HON. MEMBER: "A great mistake!"] It may have been a great mistake, as the hon. Member says, but let those who think so become responsible for carrying such a measure through Parliament, and I do not care who they are, what their policy is, or how determined they may be in their advocacy of compulsion, they will find that they are forced to deal with this question of exemptions and exceptions. If this were not so, it would be necessary for His Majesty's Government to plead guilty to the charge brought by the hon. Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Glanville) that in our desire to get soldiers we have, ignored all the other needs of the country. There is no foundation for that statement. I said as clearly and as definitely as I could the other day that the Government have done their best to take advice and to envisage the whole of our problems and responsibilities. We have thought out what is necessary for the country, as well as what is necessary for the men. It is idle to say that in asking for the men we have asked for, or in adopting the policy we have adopted, we are ignoring the real commercial interests of the country. Those who try to press that case against us forget that our first duty, as a nation fighting, for our life, is to see that our Armies in the field have the men without whom they cannot possibly protect our institutions, our liberties, or the lives of our people.

I am glad my hon. Friend: thinks so well of his own performances. I am not so sure whether he carries with, him the general sense of the House. At all events, one necessity for success is to think well of yourself. However, my hon. Friend and I have fought many a battle together side by side, and I think we understand each other. When he asks why we do not do these things, it is a difference of opinion, not of fact. He thinks we ought to do more than we are doing. We are doing what we believe to be our duty, and we are doing our best. It is idle to argue that question. I am sure he will agree with that. There are those who think we are not doing enough; there are those who think that we are doing a great deal too much. It is not possible, where criticisms differ in so large a degree, that we may in reality be doing the right thing in doing what we believe to be our duty by those whom we represent, and, in a case of almost unexampled difficulty, doing our best to see that the cause of our country is successfully prosecuted? Criticism is very easy indeed. It is very easy to be wise after the event. The burden of responsibility in a great war like the present is immense. I am not ashamed, as I have said before, of the actions and the policy of the Government of which I have the honour to be a member. I have defended them before; I am prepared to defend them again. I do not plead guilty to the charges which have been made against us. I believe that on the whole the course we have steered has been a right and wise one in the general and t>est interests of our common country.

7.0 P.M.

The Government have been asked to-day what they have done lately to deal with some of the difficulties that have arisen. I will dispose of one or two of the smaller matters first. There have been some suggestions in regard to the tribunals. I interrupted the right hon. Member for West Islington (Mr. Lough) because I do not think it is right that I, in my official position, should accept the charge, from whatever quarter of the House it comes, that these tribunals rule, or a large number of them, doing their work indifferently, still less that they are doing their work badly. I believe that on the whole these tribunals, which have a very difficult task to perform, are doing their work with credit to themselves and with advantage to the country. After all, they are composed of human beings, and it is only natural that in circumstances so difficult they should make mistakes occasionally; but to level against them, as my (right hon. Friend did, a wholesale charge of wrong-doing and inefficiency, because here and there unsatisfactory incidents have been discovered, is in my judgment to be guilty of very gross injustice. Of course, there are cases. There are the cases quoted by the hon. Member for Lanark where some of the tribunals have wrongly interpreted the Act with regard to the right or power to grant unconditional exemption to the conscientious objector. There have been certain cases where, clearly, the tribunals have taken a wrong view, both of the Act and of the Regulations. I have issued a circular which makes it perfectly clear to them, I think, that in these cases a wrong interpretation has been taken, and that it is their duty to deal with the Act as passed by Parliament. Yes, but I am asked to go further, and to issue circulars to the local tribunals calling attention to the speeches made in Parliament, and to tell them that it is their duty to administer the Act according to those speeches—[HON. MEMBERS: "Pledges!"] —and not the Act itself. That is an entirely novel procedure which I should be very sorry to see adopted by any Minister, and I certainly have no intention of doing anything of the kind. In my judgment the Act of Parliament and the Regulations carry out the deliberate decision at which Parliament arrived. In reality there has been no criticism, either of the Act of Parliament or of the Regulations, and I certainly am not going to circulate speeches, because, if I were to do so, the only probable result would be that I should receive a very prompt, and I expect none too complimentary, a reply from these tribunals, who would probably take advantage of the opportunity to express their opinion on the quality of the speeches made by hon. Members in this House. It would have no effect whatever upon the administration of the duties of the tribunals or their decisions.

The Act is perfectly clear, and the Regulations are perfectly clear, but it may be necessary to point out to them that they have taken a wrong view in these particular cases, and that has been done in the circular which deals with these and other questions. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Islington made merry over what he called the House of Commons Tribunal. He told us quite frankly that he did not know what it was. Nor do I, because it does not exist. What the right hon. Gentleman has got hold of is not a House of Commons Tribunal. There is a tribunal for the County of London, presided over by my right hon. Friend the Deputy-Chairman of Committees in this House. I believe that my right hon. Friend took occasion to summon the Committee to meet at the House of Commons. I do not know that there is anything wrong in that. When it met he proceeded to address the tribunal on their duties. I thought the speech that he made was wholly admirable on a very difficult question, and a very difficult and important point. That honestly is what I said to my right hon. Friend, and therefore when my right hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Lough) so severely criticises it, I feel bound to say, although it may appear invidious to do so, having told the House what I said to the right hon. Gentleman the Deputy-Chairman of Committees, I may tell the House what that right hon. Gentleman said to me. That was, "I am very glad you approve of the speech, because it consisted of selections from your own regulations and instructions put together." I am forced against my will to take a share in the credit of this wholly admirable address which my right hon. Friend opposite has so severely criticised. The fact that this Committee, over which the Deputy-Chairman of Committees presides, happens to have met at the House of Commons I do not think justifies either the criticism or the pronouncement of the right hon. Gentleman that because it meets here it becomes a House of Commons tribunal. There is no tribunal for the House of Commons. There is one for the County of London, and that is the one in question.

We have heard a great deal about all sorts of hardships. The charge against the tribunals is based upon this, that here and there there are certain hard cases. I wish that those who believe in compulsion with all their hearts, those who believe that we are not getting enough men, and who believe that two much tenderness is being shown in this or that direction, would take as much trouble to follow up the actions of the tribunals as is taken by those who want to attack the tribunals and establish a case against them. Every single case in which the tribunal makes a mistake is brought up on the floor of this House. [HON MEMBEBS: "No, No!"] Oh, yes! And I am asked questions about it, and have all sorts of conundrums addressed to me, or addressed to my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State. We do not hear the other side; the other story. On the whole, as I have said before, these tribunals are doing their work well and are holding the balance evenly, and I am not prepared to admit that the criticisms addressed against the tribunals, from whatever quarter of the House it comes, either from those who think the tribunals are too lenient or from those who think they are too severe, are based upon facts. The hon. Member for Stepney put a case which specially applies to the members of the great profession in which he is interested. He spoke very strongly in his criticism of the action of the Government. He appealed to us not to depart from what he called, once again, our pledge. He will forgive me for saying so, but I am rather tired of these charges that we are breaking pledges and departing from our word. It is now three days since I challenged the House of Commons to prove a case. I challenge the House of Commons to prove that we have broken our pledge. Nobody has attempted to do it—to show anything of the kind from that day to this. It is an attack of that sort that has been made as to what has happened in regard to these particular attested married men. I think my hon. Friend spoiled his case. If they think that the new procedure is less just to them than was the old procedure under which they were led to attest they have a right to go and have their case heard.

The tribunals were not given power to decide such a case but to report their views upon it to the only existing Appeal Court at that time, namely, the Central Appeal Court. In the Debates here under the Military Service Act we set up a subordinate Court—that is the local tribunal— and two Courts of Appeal, which we called the Appeal Court and the Central Appeal Court. But it never entered into our heads that we were doing them an injustice by giving them two Courts of Appeal instead of one. We gave them a procedure that was welcomed by the House of Commons, the best procedure that could be devised, for hearing the cases in the first instance and the appeals afterwards. What was urged upon us almost more than anything else, and what I felt myself, was that there might be a grave risk of injustice if there was not a full opportunity for local hearing in the smaller localities where the circumstances would be fully known, hearing by an Appeal Court in a larger area than that of the local tribunal, but still one not so vast as that covered by the central tribunal for the whole country. This was felt to be more favourable to them. So far from breaking a pledge, we were really conferring upon them what this House had looked upon as a privilege, and as the best system, too. It has been a complete surprise to the Government to find that they regard the change in the way in which my hon. Friend has described it to-day. It is not a question of hard words, or an attack upon us. If there is this strong view felt, I will consult with my Noble Friend at the War Office and my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary, and see if it is not possible, without in any way upsetting either the structure of the Act or the regulations, to secure for these men that opportunity which, under the original Regulations under which they enlisted, was clearly given to them. Let me give the House an answer to the question which was addressed to us as to what we are doing. I have told the House what we have done already. My right hon. Friend who referred to the House of Commons Tribunal also told us that the Government had done nothing, and were doing nothing to come to a decision, and that the conference only—

Well, we will drop the adjectives, but the observations of the right hon. Gentleman were not wholly complimentary either to the past or the future performances of the Government. He told us that the conference or committee which has been appointed by the Prime Minister met again yesterday, that it had not yet come to any decision, and it was unlikely that it would. A more inaccurate description of the proceedings of this conference it is impossible to imagine. I claimed the other day, as I told the House, on the question of this conference, that it had this great advantage: it was endowed with powers which enable it to come to a prompt decision. Where there is a difference of opinion between two Departments, or between the War Office on the one hand and some Department representing employers and employed on the other, this conference has the power to hear and decide these cases, and to give immediate effect to what the conference believes to be right. The first thing we did was to enlarge the Committee already sitting, that is, the Committee of the Board of Trade, charged with the duty of investigating the re-reserved occupations. We had the first report before us yesterday, and that showed that it was cutting down very largely the list of reserved occupations. Not only was it doing that, but it was going further still to decide in a whole variety of occupations that men below certain ages should no longer be regarded as exempted under the provisions which deal with reserved occupations. The establishment of the age limit has already had an effect upon the number of men available; but that is not sufficient.

There are something like, I think, thirty-five or forty different occupations, and naturally the age varies in each. It is impossible for me to give the ages. In some the age is thirty-five, in some thirty, and in others thirty-one, according to the particular occupations and the persons employed. We considered the matter in Committee, and the Committee arrived at the conclusion that men below certain ages could with safety be exempted in order to be made available for military purposes. This has been done, and it means a very practical effect in connection with these reserved occupations. In addition to that we are taking the date of 14th August, 1915, and providing that men who have joined these various occupations since that time shall not have the same position in regard to exemption as that occupied by those who were in the work before that date. That is not enough by itself. There is a misunderstanding as to the actual effect upon the men available for service in these reserved occupations. It is not in the reserved occupations that you will find a large number of men. Only a comparatively small proportion are available there for the purpose.

By far the more important duty, and, at the same time, the more difficult duty, is to go through the various industries of the country, the factories, including of course munition factories and mines, and ascertain what men there are in them who ought not to be there but available for military service. That is being done, as it were, with—if I may use the phrase—a small toothcomb. It is being done in a most vigorous way, and it is being done at once, Inspectors have been appointed who are going to the munition factories, factory inspectors are going through the general factories of the country, and we have a special procedure applied to the mines which is doing the same work there. That is being done from day to day. In addition to this, I have been asked questions about the National Register. I think it will be necessary to make it obligatory upon the holders of certificates under the register to produce those certificates when called upon, in order to show whether they have got them, and whether they have complied with the Act. It is our intention to bring the register up to date, because there are at present a great many inaccuracies, and certainly, Parliament having enacted that every man between certain ages shall so register himself so as to give the Government of the country and those who have to work under it the necessary knowledge, without which they cannot obtain the services of these men if required, it seems only reasonable and just if there are men seeking to escape from their proper liabilities that they should be called upon to give, at all events, that evidence of identification without which it is difficult to deal with them.

I come to a more difficult matter—the injustice which exists between the cases of attested men and those who come under- the Compulsion Act. That really arises in connection with the Section of the Act which was intended to avoid industrial compulsion. I am quite satisfied that Section is already not working satisfactorily. I am quite satisfied that, whatever its intention to protect men who, losing their employment for some unfair or improper reason, might automatically be exposed to military service, and therefore create a form of industrial compulsion, it is quite clear it goes further than that, and that it has the effect that it brings in its train an injustice to the attested men. I am considering now, in conjunction with my advisers, whether we cannot alter this procedure so as to secure the prevention of industrial compulsion, which nobody desires, and at the same time prevent the door being so wide open that more men can be passed through it than ever was intended, and to prevent this Section being taken advantage of by those who are really not entitled to be covered by it, and who, if no longer required for national service, being clearly under the provisions of the Act, should be available for recruiting.

I think that deals with all the questions I have been asked in the course of this Debate, including the most important of all, namely, what we have done in regard to this question of the married men. I am very glad that the charge of breaking faith either in the letter or the spirit has been dropped, or, at all events, the arguments in support of it are not urged. The charge itself may be repeated, but, if so, it has become a negligible form of attack. The whole charge, so far as it is a just one, consists in this, that you have got to find the single men. There is not a single word the Government ever used which would show that we undertook that no married man should be called to the Colours until every single man had been taken. The question is, Have we done our best, and are we doing our best, to bring the single men who ought to render this service first?

My right hon. Friend, having voted against the Compulsion Bill, must forgive me if I find it difficult to understand his position. He voted against the Compulsion Bill, and now he wants us to understand that he did it because it was not wholesale enough. I congratulate my right hon. Friend. I am sure in future we shall have in him a stalwart supporter of the Government in all they think it necessary to do in connection with compulsion, either in its present form or in connection with any of the work we have to do in order to carry it out. The married men's grievance would only be a real one if it could be shown we are not doing our best to bring single men to the Colours. I do not know of anything more we could do that we are not doing. We have vigorously reduced the list of reserved industries. We have reduced the number of men in these industries; we have fixed the age limit; we are dealing with starred and badged men in the various factories by our process of combing; we are doing, so far as I know, all that can be done to bring in these unmarried men. We are doing our best to give effect to our pledge, and I have heard of no suggestion which would enable us to do our work more efficiently.

The case of agriculture has been quoted very frequently. It came yesterday before the Conference. There was a full statement by those who sought to get more men from this branch of national industry, and there was a full statement by those who represent it. The result of that Conference was to decide that a still larger demand could in justice be made in connection with the agricultural industry, and our decision is one which will deal with that, as with other industries, on what I believe to be fair, just, and reasonable lines, but still in such a way as, I believe, will release a larger number of men for the Colours.

The Government have been asked some question in regard to the Air Service. I do not think it would be of any advantage to add anything to what has been said by the Under-Secretary of State for War and by myself on two previous occasions. The Air Committee is at work, and, as I happen to know from information I received only to-day, is doing its work vigorously and effectively. It rests with them to show that they can do something to aid us in the difficulty in which we find ourselves. The House, I venture to say, has been fair and even generous in the treatment of this very difficult question. I am sure it is not desired that we should say anything here as to the changes that are being made or the steps that are being taken further than this: we are fully cognisant of the importance of this new method of warfare, and we are doing our best to overtake the time lost to put ourselves in a thoroughly satisfactory position in this respect.

I have endeavoured to deal as fully and frankly as I can with all the questions I have been asked and the charges that have been brought against us. I will only add this one word in conclusion. We are attacked on the one side with not doing enough, and we are attacked on the other side with doing too much. It is a difficult position. The responsibility is great, but I do not say that in order to avoid criticism or to shrink from attack. I only say it because I want once again, if it is possible for me to do so, to make the House of Commons realise that we are determined to do our utmost to give to our gallant troops in the field and to the Navy on the sea the support to which they are so justly entitled, so that they, in conjunction with the people of this great Empire, shall secure a peace which will be not only satisfactory to us, but lasting, and to lay even surer than they are now the foundations on which our Empire rests.

The right hon. Gentleman in his interesting speech has convinced us, as he always does, that everything is for the best in the best possible world, and I have no doubt that now at last the tooth-combing process he spoke about is going on. But if the married men have any grievance it surely is that they are called up before the tooth-combing process has been carried out. If the tooth-combing process had been carried out earlier it might have been possible for the groups of married men to have been postponed, and that seems to me one of the most solid of the grievances they have. It seems astonishing to me that, after months of discussion and Departmental Committees, it is now found that agriculture can spare more men. I cannot understand why these great discoveries could not have been made many months ago. Why is it only after great agitation has taken place and dissatisfaction has manifested itself that these questions are gone into and something is done? It seems to me on a par with so much that is happening, and that is that events, so far from being foreseen, are always being followed.

Months ago I drew the attention of the Government to a question which is now a burning one, which I believe the right hon. Gentleman is considering. It is the question of contractual obligations of married men, which is one of the chief grievances they are complaining about to-day. There was no more difficulty about settling that question three months ago than now, and you would have thought it did not require a prophetic gift to see the importance of getting that question settled, as settled it must be, before the married men's groups are called up. I have no doubt the Government will make up its mind on this subject, but why always so late? Then there is another question, of course, to come up—an extraordinary question. When we were discussing the Military Service Bill an Amendment was moved, I believe on this side of the House, under which men who attained the age of eighteen after 15th August, 1915, would automatically come under the scope of the Bill. One would have have thought that it would have been an elementary provision in any Bill dealing with compulsory service, and one which is common to every conscriptionist system throughout the world. The right hon. Gentleman informed us, on the authority of the Secretary of State for War, that the Bill, by bringing in the unmarried men, would give him all the men he required. There seems to be some very serious miscalculation somewhere.

We were then engaged in discussing an Amendment to bring in men of eighteen. The men of eighteen are not taken by the War Office until they reach nineteen, and there are a great many reasons I could give to show it was undesirable that they should be compelled to act. It never affected this number at all.

The right hon. Gentleman must remember that somebody who is nearly eighteen on the 15th August last year is nearly nineteen now, and therefore in a month or two you would have got them. The right hon. Gentleman says that they are now coming in, and, if he can prove that, then our arguments fall to the ground. You say that you are not going to send those men out, and that they are to form a reserve of twelve months' duration; therefore you would have got in March a considerable number of unmarried young men who would have come in and married men pro tanto would have been relieved. The fact is that these figures are very difficult to ascertain, and some of them naturally are of a very vague character, and the only safe course is to take a large view and take all your people in. A curious argument has been used by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon), which has been repeated by some of his satellites, to the effect that all our trouble has arisen through the Government adopting the Compulsory Service Bill, and they contend that had there been no such Bill there would have been no trouble now [An HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear!"] I fail to understand that argument. The Derby scheme is now represented as having been asked for by those of us who favoured compulsory service. As a matter of fact, the Derby scheme is the great pet of those who said they could get all the men they wanted under the voluntary system, and then they had to ask for some sort of compulsion to make the voluntary scheme go, with the result that we had to have a half compulsory system. The whole difficulty has been that you have had the Derby scheme and not a compulsory scheme. Had you had compulsion you would not have had to go up and down the country saying you had not got people to join under an inducement that you are not going to carry out. You ought not to bargain with a section of the community as to what terms they are to attest upon, and the Government ought to give their orders clearly and distinctly. This is what has caused the trouble and the misunderstanding.

It is not so much the statements made here that have caused the trouble, but the statements made of dozens of irresponsible canvassers all over the country. You let loose under the Derby scheme an army of irresponsible canvassers whose object was to get millions of men to come forward in order to prove what a great thing the voluntary system was. I remember how Lord Derby's Report was received at first, but it struck me when I read it, when I came to analyse the figures, that if you got all the men he mentioned you would not have enough. What were the Government then trying to do? They were trying to get our Army from an establishment of 3,000,000 to 4,000,000 of men, and that meant that we wanted 1,000,000 more. When you look at Lord Derby's figures you find the number of available single men attested was 343,000, while his estimate of the number of available married men attested was 487,000, and he was still over 200,000 short of his establishment. Now, take the 650,000 single men who had not attested and treat them on the same basis, and these would give you another 200,000, so that the whole of the Derby figures would not produce the establishment which the House has voted. It is notorious that even with these liberal deductions the Derby figures were too sanguine, and you have not to-day the men to fill the establishment you voted some months ago. We should like to know what steps the Government are going to take to fill up the establishment they asked us to vote. It is not a question of a dispute between these different groups of people. This House voted 4,000,000 men.

We voted that establishment in order that we might increase the numbers to 4,000,000, but you are nowhere near that number, or at any rate we have not heard of it, and it must be obvious from the figures that we have not reached that total. We have not had many figures I know, and we are always denied any useful information on this point. At any rate, we have not reached the establishment which has been voted, and until we are told that we have there is no useful object served by discussing whether we want any more or not. The House has agreed to 4,000,000, and surely the Government must take all the steps necessary to secure this number even if they have to go to the extent of widening the scope of the Military Service Act in order to get to those figures. It is a curious thing that among the resolutions passed by the married men one of their grievances is to the effect that the unattested married men should be made to go, and they feel the injustice of the inequality that has arisen. That feeling is growing very rapidly, and the Government will find that they will have to pay a considerable amount of heed to it. Undoubtedly you will find, as things go on, dissatisfaction that the sacrifice should be so unevenly and so unjustly divided. The chief point, after all, is the Army. The hon. Member for Lanarkshire (Mr. Pringle) made an interesting speech this afternoon in which he gave an account of the Napoleonic campaign which is an entire misconception. What caused the fall of Napoleon? He seems to have discovered the one system which this nation carried out which I am afraid military historians did not discover. If we had followed the traditions of that time we should have prolonged this War almost indefinitely, and we should have brought this country almost to a state of bankruptcy, as it was at the end of the Napoleonic wars, and probably not achieved our object. After all, if Napoleon had never gone to Russia and the battle of Leipsic had never been fought, not the whole of the campaign we carried on would have shaken his power on the continent of Europe. Instead of creating an Army big enough to achieve a military success we played the game of small expeditions, which has always been uniformly unsuccessful, therefore I think it was a very bad precedent.

Personally, I can never understand this endeavour in a great War to limit the most necessary thing which you want for your Army. If you were in Serbia or Belgium I wonder how many would get up and say that we must keep up our exchange, our industries, and our export trade. There the enemy does not allow you to keep up anything. Some hon. Members think we are not fighting under similar conditions, but we are; we are fighting in identically the same conditions. Suppose the Germans broke through the French lines through our want of men on those lines, because you have to treat the whole line as one; supposing they compelled France to make peace, because we did not support them with adequate military supplies—what would be the value of our pledge, or our business, or our exchange, or our credit if such a catastrophe happened? Hon. Members engaged in business know that a military victory is worth an enormous amount of credit, and a military defeat ruins your credit, and to think that you can separate the military aspect of your campaign from the others is a manifest absurdity. Any one who has been at the front must know that you must have a certain number of people to hold a certain length of line or else you must go back. You cannot stand where you are with inferior military forces, and if you cannot keep your Armies supplied with men you must either abandon your campaign or make peace, and all the other financial consequences will follow from the indemnity you have to pay to your opponents. The idea that this country will become financially exhausted is one of the strangest things I have heard. In 1796 Pitt was asked to make peace with Napoleon on the ground that we were financially exhausted, that the troops were exhausted, but Pitt would have nothing of the kind, and as a matter of fact the war went on for another five years. No country is likely to stop a war on terms of peace which we require merely on the question of finance. That is a most dangerous fallacy. If we wish to impose upon Germany those terms of peace which the Prime Minister has stated, and which we all want, the only way you can do it is by a military victory. You cannot impose those terms unless you beat your enemy in the field. Therefore we are bound to exert all our strength and energy. You ought to concentrate on this question of Armies all our strength and let other things go. Other countries have had to do it. In France, for example, hundreds of thousands of acres of land have gone out of cultivation, but how much land has gone out of cultivation in Germany? What is the consequence?

The consequence of hundreds and thousands of acres going out of cultivation in France is that we are called upon to provide vessels to-bring food to them.

If the French land had remained in cultivation the Germans; would have taken Paris. After all, a great war is something more than ships, and it seems to me an incontrovertible proposition that this War, like all other wars, has to be won by victory. It is a most dangerous illusion to be always looking: round the world for something else to happen—an illusion that has already cost us dearly, and if continued will cost us more dearly. Our opponents are suffering enormously. We are relatively suffering; very little. Do not let it be said that we are not prepared to suffer if necessary even more than anybody in the world to achieve the object for which we set out. Do not let us present ourselves to our Allies as people sitting huckstering and bartering, figuring and weighing, instead of being a whole-hearted, resolute people intent upon one object, determined upon one aim, and that is a crushing victory which only can give peace once more to a tormented world.

When the Army Estimates were under discussion an Amendment was moved regarding the payment of pensions to men invalided out of the Service on account of disease not attributable to Army Service. We had a most interesting and. sympathetic statement from the Financial Secretary to the War Office (Mr. H. W. Forster), who told us that the word "aggravated" was to be inserted in the Royal Warrant, so that these men should be no longer invalided out of the Army without a pension and so that the widows and children of those who die should not be left without pensions or allowances. Naturally, after so sympathetic a statement, I expected an immediate result, but I have again to-night to bring before his notice the case to which I called his attention on that occasion. It is the case of the widow of a man who, under patriotic impulse, threw up good employment and joined the Army. He was examined at Southampton before being sent to France. He was in France some little time and he died suddenly. A communication was made to the widow by the records officer at Brompton Barracks, Chatham, informing her that she was not entitled to a pension as her husband had died from a malady from which he had suffered for years. She immediately contradicted that statement, and said that her husband had never suffered a day's illness all the thirty years they had been married. In spite of this the Financial Secretary to the War Office writes me a letter in which he tells me: attributable to his service. How could that be when he was not aware at the time that the man had died at all?

I believe I am right in saying that there is no necessity to insert the word "aggravated" in the Royal Warrant with regard to officers' pensions, because it is already there, though, unfortunately, it does not seem to be acted upon. I have a case here which seems to be one of a most pointed kind. One ought never to have been obliged to have brought it before this House. It is a case which the War Office ought to have settled long ago. It is the case of an officer who served in the Ashanti War twelve years ago, and who, towards the end of his service, contracted malaria. He came home, he lost his money, and he entered into the service of an insurance company. He worked there ten years, doing excellent work and never having a day's illness. When the War broke out, like a patriotic man, having formerly been a soldier, he at once volunteered. The War Office accepted him, and this is the telegram which they sent: That man to-day is deprived of his position and of the pension he would have received from the insurance corporation. Yet he is refused any kind of pension from the Army. That is what the medical officer of the battalion who examined him said:

I desire to direct attention to an entirely new point, which has reference to the Officers' Training Corps. Any candidate, as the House well knows, desiring to enter the Officers' Training Corps is very carefully examined and cross-examined by a very capable officer before he is admitted, and it is by no means an easy thing to obtain admission into the corps. The man who does obtain admission and goes in for training for a commission, I think the House will agree, is entitled to become an officer. I do not mean that he must necessarily become an officer, but the ordinary drawbacks are not applicable to him, because he has been accepted and. has undertaken training in the Officers' Training Corps. The case which I desire to bring to the notice of the right hon. Gentleman is one in which a man, aged twenty-four, was sent to the War Office and applied for a commission in the Artillery. He was interviewed by a certain officer, who asked him some questions, such as his age, his previous occupation, when he attested, why he did not attest earlier, and what were his qualifications for a commission in the Artillery. The last was a very pertinent question, but the others did not seem to be very much to the point. The man replied that he was good at mathematics, and he was. He was a schoolmaster. The officer interrupted him, and said, "That will do." The interview lasted from two to three minutes, and a week later he was notified that he was rejected, not for the Artillery, but for the Infantry, and he was told that he had better go and enlist. Was it fair to the Inns of Court, who had passed this young man and had given him a training of three or four months, and who had sent him up for a commission or for further training in an Artillery school, that their candidate should be turned down by some official at the War Office and told that he was not fit for the Infantry and had better go and enlist? This is a matter which requires a good deal of inquiry. It is not what the country requires. We do not want officials at the War Office to tell men sent up by the Officers' Training: Corps that they are not fit for any commission at all, and that the best thing they can do is to go and enlist. All the male members of this man's family hold commissions either in the Army or the Navy, the father himself being in command of Admiralty transports.

We are told that there is no difference made between the attested men and the men who have not attested. I have been a letter written by one of whom I have some personal knowledge, and he tells me that there is a difference made, because when unattested men apply for posts in the Royal Garrison Artillery they are given them, or at any rate regarded as eligible, whereas if attested men apply I for the same posts they are not regarded as eligible. I should like to know whether that is so or not. Possibly when the right hon. Gentleman replies he will not mind making some statement on the point. It is rather a small point, but it is one of interest to a large number of people.

8.0 P.M.

I do not intend to discuss this War question. I will merely say I think it is our duty to do all we can to bring the conflict to a speedy and successful conclusion. What I particularly want to do is to call the attention of the Under-Secretary for War to what is known as the Brora case, in which Private Gordon Sutherland is concerned. We have had this case brought up previously, and had it not been for the fact that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty and the Under-Secretary for War have intimated that a new Royal Warrant, or Army Order, is about to be issued, I would not have raised it again. But I want to know definitely whether this case is covered by the proposed new Warrant. Private Gordon Sutherland, it will be remembered, joined Lovat's Scouts. He was passed by the doctor, but soon after he joined he became ill and went into hospital. Eventually he was discharged as being no longer fit for military service; he was compulsorily retired, and, soon afterwards, died. He left a widow and six or seven children, no provision being made for them. Application was at once made to the War Office for a pension or allowance for the widow and children, but the War Office, while admitting that it was a deserving case, decided that, owing to the man having been discharged from the Service, they could not under the Army Order make any allowance whatever. Had the man died prior to his discharge they would have been in a position to relieve the widow and children, either by pension or allowance. I want to know whether this new Army Order will be submitted to the House before it actually becomes law, so that we may see whether it covers all the points we desire to be included. We are all anxious to do the best we can for those who are fighting our battles, and for their dependants. I would further ask whether, providing the new Army Order governs cases of this kind, it will be made retrospective. The case I have mentioned comes from my own constituency, but I am aware there are many similar cases elsewhere, and that makes it all the more important it should be dealt with. We did not in olden time treat those who fought our battles, or their dependants, particularly well. We are doing better now, but we shall have to do still better in the future, because we must all recognise that our soldiers and their dependants are entitled to be taken care of. I trust, therefore, it is in that spirit that the new Army Order has been framed.

I intervene merely to draw the attention of the Under-Secretary of State to one or two matters which, I am sure, he will sympathetically consider. But, before doing so, there are two remarks which have been made to-day which ought to be commented upon by those who have had a little practical acquaintance with what has been going on during the last year or two. One was the remark by the right hon. Baronet the Member for Swansea (Sir A. Mond), in which he attacked the Government for having excluded from the purview of the Military Service Act boys between eighteen and nineteen years of age. But the President of the Local Government Board was right when he said that, for the moment, there is no need for the compulsion of these youngsters. The difficulty with which we commanding officers have been faced has been the eagerness, heroism, and courage of these youngsters, who sometimes have the connivance of their parents in concealing their age. Personally I had a somewhat remarkable experience of this. It was the case of a relative of a distinguished Member of this House. The boy turned out to be seventeen years of age. His father communicated with me, expressing a desire that he should go in for some other course of military training. I said to the farther that I supposed it was not with his connivance that the boy had joined, but he replied that it had been done with his connivance, as he thought it was a proper and useful thing for the youngster. That is the sort of difficulty we have had to deal with, and when I hear the hon. Member for Mansfield (Sir A. Markham) continually attacking the Government and the War Office officials for throwing these youngsters into the firing line, I would remind him that the difficulty is to keep the youngsters out. There is plenty of heroism and courage among them, but the majority of them unfortunately cannot stand the strain.

There was also a remark made in the brilliant speech of the hon. Member for Brighton (Captain Tryon), who represents a certain section of opinion in the country which has always been in favour of compulsion. I have been against compulsion, but I voted with the Government right through the Military Service Act. I believe they were perfectly right in not having introduced that measure before. In the earlier stages of the War it would not have been accepted by public opinion, because recruits were flowing in freely, and the only difficulty was in equipping them. But it was the right thing under the circumstances which subsequently arose. I do not say that there is any blame to be attached to one side or the other under the circumstances. But the Bill became necessary and was passed, and it is quite wrong to say it should have been introduced earlier. I have always believed that the great difficulty with which the voluntary system had to struggle in the old days was created by the Compulsionist party, who were always deriding the force which would have given us at the commencement of the War a very much larger source of military power. I refer to the Territorial Force. Hon. Members will remember the odium and contempt which were poured upon it, with the result that, at the moment the War broke out, it was considerably under strength. If a different attitude had been adopted toward it, I believe the force might have been double or treble its then strength. I thank the right hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary for War for the sympathetic references he made to the Territorial Force in a speech which he delivered some time ago. We are very much obliged to him for what he said.

I rose, however, to make one or two practical suggestions, and the first is a matter which affects the depot battalions, or third line units, and possibly those of the New Army. It is a matter which, perhaps, the right hon. Gentleman may not think he can remedy, but I believe it is possible to remedy it. It is in reference to the vast number of returns exacted from these units every week and every month, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will look into the matter to see whether some of these returns cannot be reduced in number. I fancy many of them overlap. There are twenty-seven weekly returns and eighteen monthly returns demanded—in all forty-five. Some of them appear to me to be susceptible of simplification and reduction in number. They certainly involve an immense amount of clerical work for the staff, whose energies might more reasonably be devoted to the training of men.

Then there is another matter in connection with hospital stoppages. When a man goes into hospital a certain stoppage is made which, however, can be remitted afterwards when he comes out of hospital. Apparently a practice has grown up in some places, on the part of the medical officers of the hospital, refusing to sanction the remission of the stoppages, and thereby preventing the commanding officer of the unit to which the man belongs giving his sanction to the remission. The sanction of the medical officer at the hospital has to be obtained before the case can go to the commanding officer of the unit. This is being done in cases where the medical officer of the unit has himself certified that the cause of the man going into hospital arose from military service. A practice seems to have grown up of allowing the remission of hospital stoppages only in cases of wounds or injury on duty, or sickness that the man would not have been liable to in civil life. But there are many sicknesses to which a man is liable in civil life to which he is also liable when serving as a soldier. The practice which has grown up seems to me to be in contravention of an answer given by the Under-Secretary to the hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King) a little while ago, in which it was stated that, in cases where the illness is contracted on active service, or the wound received in action, there is no stoppage, but in other cases the matter lies within the discretion of the soldier's commanding officer, who shall take into consideration the extent to which the sickness may be attributable to military service. But, as I have pointed out, in many cases the matter is not permitted to go to the commanding officer, in consequence of the action of the medical officer of the hospital. I trust the right hon. Gentleman will have the matter inquired into. I know it is done with a view to saving expense, but, on the other hand, it creates a sense of injustice in the minds of men affected.

There is one other matter. A very useful system is about to be introduced by which nominations for a commission do not carry with them the grant of the commission right off. Men have to join a cadet battalion and to prove their fitness, and if they fail to get the necessary certificate they are rejected and sent back to the unit. It is a perfectly sound system, but, unfortunately, at the present moment a large number of nominations for commissions which in the ordinary course would go forward and result in commissions being granted are held up, for what reason one cannot make out. The result is that in a very short time there will be a shortage of officers owing to the delay in letting these men go through to the cadet battalions. I do not know where the hitch occurs, but there has been a great deal of delay in getting these men to the cadet battalions, consequently it is very difficult for commanding officers to know whether they should hold up these men or send them out to the front in drafts at once. A very serious state of things will result unless steps are taken to let these gentlemen go forward at once to the cadet battalions and be tested.

I notice that considerable complaint has been made concerning the way in which local tribunals have done their work. I do not happen to be a member of either a local or a central tribunal. It will be within the recollection of the House that miners have their own Appeal Courts. I am an assessor to one of those Courts. While I am not a member of a local or a central tribunal, I happen to know many of the tribunals which have been constituted. I know the members who form those tribunals and also the way in which the tribunals are doing their work. The idea of establishing these tribunals was a very good one. I believe the Government were actuated by the best motives in setting them up, and after all is said and done the tribunals are doing excellent work. I find that in our own districts the complaint is rather that the tribunals are not allowed the freedom they think they ought to have, and that their decisions are not respected to the extent they think they ought to be. I have in mind at this moment the case in my own Constituency of a local tribunal composed of very excellent men—men fairly well advanced in years, of large experience, of good judgment, and who are deservedly highly respected throughout the district, the chairman being a magistrate holding rather Conservative opinions, the secretary being a county councillor, and all schools of political thought being represented on the tribunal. It considered the case of a young man who had two brothers, both serving with the Forces, one on the Western front and the other in Salonika. He had a widowed mother, absolutely de- pendent upon him, also an elder brother who was nearly blind, about thirty years of age, who is not capable of doing any work. He appealed to the local tribunal for exemption. The local tribunal, knowing thoroughly well the whole circumstances of the case, considered it was one in which the young man should be exempted, and they unanimously expressed that opinion, but their decision was overridden by the military adviser, and the man was not exempted. It is the general opinion throughout the whole of the district that the local tribunals, when they are up against such cases as that, are not so respected as they ought to be, and that their decisions do not carry the weight they ought to carry, whereas, on the other hand, the military adviser has a power which we do not think is in the public interest, and which we are inclined to think it was not in the mind of the Government he should have when the Military Service Bill was passed.

We have another complaint. I know that the instructions give the tribunals power to sit in private under certain conditions. I am not complaining for one moment of that power being given to the local tribunals, because I would be the last to suggest that conditions could not arise where it would be necessary for the tribunals to consider a case in private. But complaint is continually being made that the tribunals are sitting in private when they ought not to do so, and that they are dealing privately with matters affecting the general public that ought to be dealt with publicly. I hope these points will receive some consideration, and that the right hon. Gentleman will have something to say in regard to them. I am not quite sure that I shall be in order in referring to another matter, and I can assure you, Sir, that if you decide I am not in order, I shall not pursue the theme. I wanted to say that we think that those who have responded to their country's call are not, in all cases, receiving the financial consideration due to them. I had two questions on the Paper to-day to which answers were given that were not satisfactory to myself by a long way. I know a very recent case in my own Constituency of a miner receiving a very good wage who responded to the call of his country and joined the forces. He served for a considerable time. He was allowed to visit his wife and four children, and was; given leave until a certain Monday. On the Sunday night a private was sent by the sergeant-major to tell him that he must return to camp at once for an early inspection on the following morning. He set out for the camp. He went by train to the station nearest to the camp, and in walking from the station to the camp he was run down by a military motor car. In that car was the very sergeant-major who had ordered his earlier return to camp. He is seriously injured. All that is done for him in the way of getting him to a hospital and treating him in the best way he can be treated when he has arrived there is done, but the injuries are so severe that the man dies the following day. There is no financial consideration for the widow and the poor children. We think when men give up good situations and large salaries and make sacrifices of that kind in order to respond to the call of duty something ought to be done for the widows and children, and so long as the country declines to render them financial assistance it has failed to do its duty to some of its bravest, some of its noblest, and some of its most valuable sons.

I want to say a word on the question of Zeppelin raids. I live in a Midland city which a few weeks ago received its first visit from Zeppelins. I happened to be at home, and I heard them for some two or three hours, and I heard a number of their bombs drop. Before that raid our authorities subjected us to very stringent lighting regulations, which led to a great deal of hostile criticism. Very strong letters appeared in the newspapers, and the general opinion seemed to be that the Regulations were far too stringent. I shared that opinion myself, although I have never, either by word of mouth or note of hand, given expression to it. But I am bound to confess that my opinion was changed absolutely and entirely by what I saw myself. Fortunately we received, I think, some two hours' notice of the danger, and as far as possible all lights were extinguished, not only in the streets, but in the houses, and the city was placed in what I might almost call utter and absolute darkness. The Zeppelins passed over our city twice, and dropped bombs all round it, doing a great deal of damage and killing a number of people, but I am quite certain in my own mind that they passed over it without knowing it, and I am equally certain that it was our darkness that saved us. I have nothing but admiration now for our city authorities in taking the precautions they did, and my own experience prompts me to express the opinion — and I should be failing in my duty if I did not express the opinion—that it is very desirable indeed that the authorities should not only keep a sharp look out for danger of that kind, but as soon as they have reason to apprehend it give notice. Some people say do not give notice, but I say, after our experience, give the authorities all the notice you can, and when that notice is given let those authorities place the district in as dark a condition as possible and I am quite certain, from what I have seen, that those are the very best precautions which can be taken so far as prevention from disaster from air raids is concerned. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give some consideration to these questions and especially to the question of providing some financial assistance for those who meet with sickness or with accident whilst they are members of the forces, although they may not be engaged in actual warfare. We cannot ignore the fact that these people would, in many cases, if they met with accidents whilst going to or from their work, receive considerable sums of compensation. In the case to which I have referred, had that happened whilst the man was going to or from his work, he would have received £1 a week during incapacity, and at least £300 in case of fatality, and we think, as trade unionists and trade union leaders, that the Government, especially considering the sacrifices these men make, ought not to put them in a worse position than they are in so far as their employers are concerned.

I am very glad that the hon. Member agrees with the lighting regulations which have been made. I shall have to say something more about that to-morrow, so I will not anticipate. I can also promise him that the case to which he referred, in which he suggested that a pension or a gratuity should be awarded, will be looked into by the Financial Secretary and myself. In regard to the case raised by my hon. Friend (Mr. Morton), I think he can rest assured that if it can be proved to be one in which the man's death was hastened or aggravated by military service, consideration will be given to it, and a gratuity or something of the kind will be granted.

If I understand correctly what you say now, it will come under the same rule as the case which you mentioned last week.

You did not answer the question as to the new Army Regulation or rule or whatever you call it.

I cannot make a promise of that kind.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolution reported,

2. "That a sum, not exceeding £1,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expenses of the Pay, etc., of His Majesty's Army (including Army Reserve) at Home and Abroad (exclusive of India), which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1917."

Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.

Ordered, That the Resolution which upon the 9th day of this instant March was reported from the Committee of Supply, and which was then agreed to by the House, be now read:—

"That 350,000 officers, seamen, and boys, Coast Guard, and Royal Marines be employed for the Sea and Coast Guard Services for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1917."

Ordered, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide, during Twelve Months, for the Discipline and Regulation of the Army; and that Mr. Tennant, Mr. Balfour, Mr. Forster, and Dr. Macnamara do prepare and bring it in.

Army (Annual) Bill,

presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time to-morrow (Wednesday), and to be printed. [Bill 7.]

Ways and Means [16th March]

Resolutions reported,

1. "That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1916, the sum of £198,039 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."

2. "That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1917, the sum of £36,636,000 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."

Resolutions agreed to.

Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolutions by the Chairman of Ways and Means, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Montagu.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 2) BILL,

"to apply certain sums out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the years ending on the thirty-first day of March, one thousand nine hundred and sixteen and one thousand nine hundred and seventeen," presented accordingly; read the first time; to be read a second time to-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 8.]

Naval and Military War Pensions, Etc. (Expenses) Bill

Read a second time, and committed to Committee of the Whole House for Tomorrow.— [ Mr. Rea. ]

Naval and Military War Pensions [Expenses—Consolidated Fund.]

Considered in Committee.

Resolved,

"That it is expedient to authorise the charge on the Consolidated Fund of such sums as may become payable under any Act of the present Session to provide for the payment of a grant in aid of the funds at the disposal of the Statutory Committee constituted under The Naval and Military War Pensions, etc., Act, 1915, and for payments by local authorities in aid of the Expenses of local and district committees under that Act."

Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Whereupon Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 22nd of February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-four minutes before Nine o'clock.