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Commons Chamber

Volume 81: debated on Wednesday 22 March 1916

House of Commons

Wednesday, March 22, 1916

Private Business

Gas Provisional Orders Bill,

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill,

Bead a second time, and committed.

Munitions (Health of Munition Workers)

Copy presented of Report of Health of Munition Workers Committee on Industrial Fatigue and its Causes (Memorandum No. 7); on special Industrial Diseases (Memorandum No. 8); on Ventilation and Lighting of Munitions Factories and Workshops (Memorandum No. 9); on Sickness and Injury (Memorandum No. 10) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Munitions (Act of Sederunt)

Copy presented of Act of Sederunt, regulating Appeals under the Munitions of War (Amendment) Act, 1916 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Post Office (Foreign and Colonial Parcel Post)

Copy presented of the Foreign and Colonial Parcel Post Amendment (No. 78) Warrant, 1916, dated 21st February, 1916 [by Act] to lie upon the Table.

Army (Ordnance Factories)

Annual Accounts presented for the year 1914–15, with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 47.]

Unemployment Insurance

Copy presented of the Unemployment Insurance (Supplementary) Regulations, 1916, made by the Board of Trade, dated 15th March, 1916 [by Act] to lie upon the Table.

Indictment Rules

Paper laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House:—Copy of Rules, dated 18th March, 1916, under the Indictments Act, 1915, made by the Rule Committee established under the Act [by Act].

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Steamship "Coquet" (Crew Prisoners)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has been able to take any steps to secure the release of ten members of the steamship "Coquet" which was torpedoed in the Mediterranean, and who were taken prisoners by hostile Bedouin Arabs on the coast of Tripoli; and whether the Foreign Office have any news as to where these men are at present?

The Italian Government have at our request asked the Governor of Tripoli to make inquiries in regard to this matter. According to the latest information the ten prisoners are at Antelat, about 150 kilometres south-east of Benghazi.

German and Austrian Merchant Ships

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can state the number and aggregate tonnage of German and Austrian merchant ships sheltering in neutral ports throughout the world, and the number and tonnage of the vessels which have been made available for commercial use by the recent action taken by the Governments of Portugal and Italy; and if he has any information that other neutral Governments hold the view that, having regard to the increasing shortage of tonnage and the methods of submarine warfare against the merchant ships of all nations adopted by Germany, they would be justified in requisitioning and making use of all available ships in their harbours?

I am advised that to obtain and tabulate the information asked for by my hon. Friend in the first part of his question would involve a large amount of labour, and I hope it will not be imposed on public officials who are at this time already overworked. No statement has, so far as His Majesty's Government are aware, been made by any neutral Government on the point suggested in the latter part of the question, and I cannot therefore say what views they hold.

North British Railway Company (Steamships Requisitioned)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty on what date the steamships "Marmion" and "Waverley," belonging to the North British Railway Company, were commandeered for Government service; and on what basis and to what amount is the company being paid for the services of these vessels?

The steamship "Marmion" was requisitioned by the Admiralty in April, 1915, and the steamship "Waverley" in September, 1915. Payment in respect of requisitioned railway steamers is in accordance with the general arrangement made pursuant to the Regulation of the Forces Act, 1871.

Store Ships

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether a number of the steamers fitted with refrigerating chambers which were requisitioned by the Admiralty for use as store ships or ware houses for frozen meat and kept lying in French ports or elsewhere had only a portion of their holds fitted with refrigerating chambers, and that other holds in these ships, representing thousands of tons of space, could have been carrying cereals or other foodstuffs had the steamers not been requisitioned by the Admiralty, and had they been running in their regular trades?

A certain number of ships fitted partly for the conveyance of meat have been used as depot ships, but in every case this has been done advisedly and was the best course to adopt. It was done when the military requirements were for a small amount of refrigerated space only, and to have used a ship wholly refrigerated would have meant withdrawing from the trade routes refrigerated space urgently required for the conveyance of meat to this country. So far as possible small boats wholly refrigerated were used, but the supply was insufficient. The number of vessels so employed has been steadily reduced by the adaptation of fruit ships for the carriage of frozen meat and by joint-supply arrangements with the Allies. Three vessels only are now employed in this manner, of which two will, it is anticipated, be released from Government service during the next few weeks. The remaining vessel will also be released as soon as another ship can be prepared for the service.

Naval and Military Air Service

Enlistment in Regular Forces

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, under the provisions of the Naval Force Act, 1903, which constituted the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, of which the Royal Naval Anti-Aircraft Corps is a portion, and the provisions of the Royal Naval Volunteer Act of 1859, any member of the Anti-Aircraft Corps enlisting in His Majesty's Regular Forces is subject to a penalty of six months' imprisonment and any officer enlisting him is subject to a fine of £20; and what steps he proposes to take to deal with those men who have unwittingly incurred these penalties?

The answer to the first two parts of the question is in the affirmative. A certain number of part-time men belonging to the Anti-Aircraft Corps were attested under a departmental arrangement which was considered to be in their interest. If single part-time men of military age were discharged after having voluntarily given valuable service, they would find themselves under the compulsory provisions of the Military Service Act as from the 2nd March. Since it was thought very unfair that such a situation should arise, they were consequently attested as stated. This was done by arrangement with the War Office. It is, of course, not proposed to take any action whatever of a punitive character in respect of either the men or the recruiting officer.

Is not the mistake you made that it is open to a common informer to sue for penalties?

Attacking Hostile Aircraft

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in the event of hostile aircraft being sighted at places where aeroplanes of the Royal Naval Air Service are in readiness, it is necessary to obtain sanction from the Admiralty before such aeroplanes are allowed to go up to attack the invader?

Australian Wheat

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether certain steamers ordered by the Transport Department to proceed in ballast to Australian ports, there to load wheat requisitioned by the Australian Government, are discharging their cargoes at Italian and Spanish ports; and, if so, will he state who is responsible for these proceedings?

Certain vessels were released from service by the Admiralty at the request of the Colonial Office on condition that they should proceed, after discharging cargo in the Mediterranean, to Australia, to load wheat for this country or France, for the conveyance of which sufficient tonnage was not available.

Was it under these orders that the cargoes were to be discharged in Italian and Spanish ports?

No. Their orders were, after discharging cargo in the Mediterranean, to proceed to Australia.

As a matter of fact, have these vessels discharged their cargoes at Italian and Spanish ports, and who was responsible? That is the question on the paper.

I am afraid I have not gathered the purport of it. They discharged their cargo in the Mediterranean and then went on to Australia. If the matter is to be raised I will look into it.

Who is really responsible for these ships discharging their cargoes in Spain?

I could not say off-hand. I should like notice. I should say the Transport authorities. I cannot saddle the Colonial Office with it.

Warrant Officers, Class Ii

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the Royal Warrant, dated 28th January, 1915, with regard to the new rank of Warrant Officer, Class II., applies to pensioner quartermaster-sergeants and quartermaster-sergeant instructors of the Royal Marines who were called up and have been serving since August, 1914?

The Royal Warrant dated the 28th January, 1915, does not apply to Royal Marines. The Order in Council, authorising the promotion of certain Royal Marines to the rank of Warrant Officer, Class II., issued in November, 1915, does not apply to all pensioner quartermaster-sergeants and quartermaster-sergeant instructors called up for service, otherwise the establishment would be exceeded, but would be applied in the case of a pensioner being selected temporarily during the War for a particular appointment on the establishment as a quartermaster-sergeant or quartermaster-sergeant instructor.

Is there any reason why there should be inequality as between these two groups of non-commissioned officers doing exactly the same work?

Naval Recruits

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether an advertisement inviting men to join the Royal Navy includes the words "candidates can enrol at once and wait to be called up at any time within the next eight months with fourteen days' notice"; whether such information is confirmed at local recruiting offices; whether he is aware that after enlistment men have been informed that they were liable to service at any time upon receipt of fourteen days' notice; whether this is what the advertisement means; and whether he will release such men as may desire from their engagement unless the Admiralty is prepared to stand by its own advertisement?

The intention of this advertisement of the system of deferred entry is that men should be liable to come up at some time within the next eight months at fourteen days' notice, their wishes as to the actual time being noted and complied with so far as the requirements of the Service permit.

Is it not the fact that the advertisement says notice shall be given by the men and not that they shall be called up at any time?

I have a copy of the advertisement in my hand and it says candidates may enrol. It is all very carefully explained to the candidate by the recruiting officer. The effect of the guarantee we give is "we give you fifteen days' notice and you are liable to be called up some time in the next eight months, but we will do our best to meet your wishes."

Questions

Mr. Philip Coker: Nigeria (Conviction Of)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that Mr. Philip Coker, formerly in the service of the Government in the Colony of Nigeria, was sentenced by the Chief Justice at Lagos in January, 1910, to nine months' imprisonment for larceny, and was released in June of the same year after investigation; that a free pardon was then refused to him, and that at the end of last year a judgment was given in full Court by the Chief Justice in Nigeria, by which Mr. Coker's innocence was established and his character cleared entirely of the charges for which he had been punished; and whether the victim of this miscarriage of justice will now receive compensation for the wrong he has sustained, restitution for what he has suffered, and reemployment in the Colonial Service?

No information on the subject of this case has been received by the Colonial Office since the 21st of May, 1912, the date of the reply given in this House to a previous question by the hon. Member. I am consequently unaware of the judgment referred to, but will ask the Governor-General of Nigeria for a report.

Cameroon Operations

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will say when he expects to be able to publish dispatches dealing with operations in the Cameroons?

Major-General Dobell and Brigadier-General Cunliffe have been asked to send home dispatches covering the whole period of the operations, and when these are received Papers will be laid after consultation with the Army Council.

It is difficult to name a time. I should think it would mean a month or so.

Royal Irish Fusiliers

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will state the regimental number, number of battalion, date, and certified cause of death of Patrick Sullivan, a soldier of the Royal Irish Fusiliers, one of two brothers, both wounded in action, whose appeal for proper treatment was disregarded, and who died in Weymouth workhouse and was buried in a pauper's grave; what the explanation of that treatment is; why no inquest was held; and whether it is in obedience to a special or a general instruction from the competent military authority in Ireland that the facts of this case have been suppressed by a certain portion of the Press in Ireland?

If the hon. Gentleman wants an inquiry made into this case it is for him to furnish me with the particulars referred to in the second line of the question. I cannot undertake to make roving inquiries.

How does the right hon. Gentleman expect an ordinary Member of this House to obtain particulars from a dead man? Does he think a man who has sacrificed his life for his country is not worth inquiring into?

I admit that the inquiry suggested by the hon. Member requires someone extraordinary, but I thought he possessed those qualifications.

Seriously, if the hon. Member will furnish particulars of course I will have inquiry made.

Has the right hon. Gentleman consulted the newspaper he refers to and the local authorities at Weymouth?

Military Service

Medically Unfit

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his Department is accepting men rejected for the Navy as medically unfit; and, if so, will he say why this is so?

Section 1, Sub-section (3) of the Military Service Act, 1916, provides that the Admiralty shall have the first call on the services of men transferred to the Reserve under Section 1 of the Act. If the Admiralty do not want any man because he does not reach the standard of fitness in force for the Royal Navy he may be accepted for military service if he reaches the standard of fitness for the Army. It is possible that a man may comply with the standards for the Army if he does not comply with those for the Royal Navy. I do not imagine that there will be many such cases, but the case is a possible one.

asked the Under-Secretary for War if he will order the immediate release of Fred Capper, who was medically rejected by the medical officer at Glossop on 29th October, but who, on receipt of the yellow form, went to the recruiting officer at Glossop for advice on 5th March, and was asked for his certificate of rejection, which was taken from him, and he was then sent to the military quarters at Chester; and will he see that the recruiting officer guilty of this offence is seriously dealt with?

Young Soldiers

asked the Under-Secretary for War whether he is aware that some cases exist where boys of eighteen and a half years of age are refused discharge from the Army on the application of their parents, and are under orders to proceed shortly to the front, yet are re- fused commissions in the Army on the stated ground that they are too young, although admitted in every way to be efficient and strongly recommended for such commissions by their commanding officers; and whether he is prepared to take any action in such cases?

Soldiers of eighteen and a half years of age who are recommended by their commanding officers for commissions would not be refused on account of their age.

asked whether it is intended to draft into the Non-Combatant Corps men who have volunteered for military service but who are not passed as physically fit by the doctors?

It is not intended to draft into the Non-Combatant Corps men who have not been passed as physically fit by the doctors. The Non-Combatant Corps is provided solely for such men as have conscientious objections to combatant service. The ranks will be filled solely with these men although the officers and noncommissioned officers need not necessarily be objectors to combatant service.

Will this Non-Combatant Corps be employed in France or in this country?

Local Tribunals

asked the Under-Secretary for War whether his attention has been called to a case in the Glasgow Tribunal, where the military representative, a Colonel Nelson, declared that an attested man forty-one years old in January was in a different position from an unattested man of the same age; and whether, in view of his pledges in this House, he will circularise his representatives on the subject?

Under the present Regulations, no man who has attained his forty-first birthday would be called up for military service, whether he be attested or unattested. Leaflets making this clear have been distributed.

asked the President of the Local Government Board if he has received a protest against the action of the Sculcoates Rural District Tribunal in refusing to permit the hearing of cases in public even when this was desired by the claimants; and will he say what he proposes to do upon the conduct of the neighbouring tribunal of Hull, which has acted in a similar manner, having refused to admit the public and having also refused to permit the accredited representative of the only labour paper in the district to the hearing of cases?

Representations have been received respecting the Hull Tribunal, but not respecting that for Sculcoates. My right hon. Friend is communicating with the local tribunals.

asked the President of the Local Government Board if clerks to the local tribunals are members of the Board and are entitled to take part in the hearing of cases and to put questions and express opinions; if his attention has been called to the observations made by the clerk to the St. Austell's Tribunal on 7th March that he did not agree with exemption on conscientious grounds; and will he inform the town clerk of Accrington that it is not the duty of the clerk to the tribunal to act as chairman and to be constantly expressing personal opinions at the hearing of cases?

On the evidence before my right hon. Friend he does not think it necessary to take any action in the cases mentioned.

asked the President of the Local Government Board if he will call the attention of the chairman of the Helmsley (Yorks) local tribunal to the impropriety of his statement at a meeting of the tribunal that the unattested single men would have very little sympathy from the tribunal, as these men had stood back until the last moment, when they had to be forced in, and that the matter was absolutely scandalous and they wished the opinion of the tribunal to be known?

My right hon. Friend has no information on the subject beyond what is given in the question. The action of a tribunal must be judged rather by its decisions than by the remarks which individual members may be alleged to have made.

Are we to understand that the Local Government Board condone statements like this, made publicly by chairmen of tribunals who have been appointed because of their judicial capacity and fair-mindedness?

The hon. Gentleman is not to understand we agree with the allegations made or that we have got any evidence on the subject.

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether instructions have been issued to the local tribunals that where a church applies for exemption from the Military Service Act, 1916, for one of its servants, as for instance a choirmaster and organist, that the church has no right to depute the pastor to represent the church at the appeal; and, if not, will he instruct the clerk to the Neath local tribunal that he was wrong in advising his tribunal not to allow the pastor of the Orchard Place Baptist Church to represent the church in respect of the claim for exemption of the organist and choirmaster, and in laying it down that the church could only be represented by the secretary?

Arrest of Absentees (Prosecutions at Brentford)

asked the Under-Secretary for War whether his attention has been called to the report of proceedings in the Brentford Police Court on the 13th instant, when it appeared that several young men had been arrested by the police and locked up in the cells on Sunday and Monday night, bail being refused; whether two of these cases were under appeal to the Middlesex Tribunal; whether one of the others had made three applications to the Ealing recruiting office to know where he was to join, and was told not to worry as he would have notice; whether the magistrates described the proceedings as disgraceful and said that the men had the sympathy of the Court; and whether he will take steps to see that this kind of conduct is not repeated by the military authorities?

Military Hospitals (Orderlies)

asked the Under-Secretary for War whether he is aware that 200 orderlies have, on or about 16th March, been transferred from a military hospital to undertake duties elsewhere and 200 conscientious objectors of military age have been appointed to take their place; whether he is aware that women orderlies are available for such appointments and are doing excellent work in this capacity at No. 3 General Hospital, London Command, Wandsworth; and whether for the future the policy of the Government is to employ conscientious objectors as orderlies at military hospitals?

I have no knowledge of the employment of conscientious objectors as hospital orderlies. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would inform me in what hospital the alleged substitution of conscientious objectors of military age for hospital orderlies has taken place. I am aware of the substitution of men by women, and I drew attention to this fact and the admirable work of the women in my speech introducing Army Estimates.

Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly answer the last part of the question?

Non-Combatant Corps

To ask the Under-Secretary for War whether men who have voluntarily attested and been accepted for non-combatant service in the Army, owing to their being medically unfit for combatant service, will be required to join the Non-Combatant Corps formed for conscientious objectors; and, if so, whether such men will be provided with a badge distinguishing them from those drafted to this corps on account of conscientious objection to combatant serviced

Since I put this question down it has been satisfactorily answered by the right hon. Gentleman yesterday.

War Office Clerk's Exemption

asked whether a clerk employed in the War Office recently asked for and obtained exemption from military service before the Finchley Tribunal on the ground that he belonged to the Fellowship of Reconciliation and would rather throw up his post in the War Office than serve in the Army; and whether he still retains his post?

I understand that the facts are substantially as stated in the first part of the question. The clerk in question having obtained a certificate of exemption in the manner provided by law, it is not proposed to take any action in regard to him.

Has the right hon. Gentleman not considered that the Gentleman himself said he would rather give up his post at the War Office than serve in the Army? If he is not serving in the Army, why is he still at the War Office?

The position is this: Under the law he appeared before a tribunal, and that tribunal granted him exemption in accordance with the Statute. Is the War Office, therefore, to say that a man who obtained his legal rights under the Statute is to be dismissed from the service of the War Office?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how this man can conscientiously organise war?

That really is not for me to say. It is for the tribunal, and the tribunal have decided in accordance with statements and evidence brought before them.

Age Limit

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the need for men in the Army, he will propose an Amendment to the Military Service Act of 1915 so as to bring within its scope all men who have reached the age of eighteen since 15th August, 1915, and also all men on attaining the age of eighteen?

The scope of the Military Service Act was limited to men who were invited to attest under the Group system. The proposal to extend it to men attaining the age of eighteen after the 15th August, 1915, was discussed during the passage of the Bill through Parliament, and the Government stated it could not be accepted.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that only yesterday a resolution in support of this change was passed by influential hon. Members who sit behind him?

If it was only yesterday, obviously the Government have had no time to consider it.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not in official communication with the Committee?

Questions

Macclesfield Guardians (Relieving Officer)

asked the President of the Local Government Board if he has received a communication from the Macclesfield guardians with respect to a clerk in their employ who has for some time been acting as relieving officer and registrar of births; if the guardians have given this officer notice of dismissal because he applied for exemption from military service on the ground of conscientious objection; if the clerk to the guardians sent a letter to the tribunal asking for temporary exemption for this servant on the ground of indispensability; and, in view of the definite pledges of the Government that the Military Service Act, 1916, would not be used for industrial compulsion, will he see that such a practice is not permitted in his own Department?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I understand that the guardians have given the man referred to notice of dismissal in consequence of certain statements made by him to the local tribunal, and that the clerk to the guardians did write to the tribunal asking for a temporary exemption on the ground of indispensability, but that this letter was written on the authority of a resolution passed by the guardians in November last, and that notice to move the rescission of that resolution had been given before the case came before the local tribunal. The guardians can dismiss this officer without my consent, and I do not see that any question of industrial compulsion arises in this case.

Local Government Board (Conscientious Objector)

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether a clerk employed at the Local Government Board recently asked for and obtained exemption from military service on conscientious, grounds, saying that he declined to do even hospital work; and whether he is still retained in his post?

The facts are, I believe, as stated in the question, and the clerk is still in the service of the Local Government Board. The Legislature has expressly recognised the conscientious objector. The clerk in question complied with the law, and I do not think that his action in this matter gives ground for dismissing him from his post.

British Subjects Abroad

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) whether any effort has been made to trace and recall for service British subjects of military age who may have left this country for any part of North or South America since the outbreak of hostilities; (2) whether it is intended to give the police authorities in this country power to demand the production of a certificate of registration from any person should they deem it necessary; (3) whether it is intended to request the French and Italian police authorities to demand the production of a certificate of registration from any male British subject of military age who may be at present resident in either of the two countries; and (4) whether he is aware of the number of Englishmen of military age who have gone to reside in many parts of France and Italy, and particularly on the French and Italian Riviera, since the outbreak of the War; and what steps the Government have in contemplation whereby the services of these men may be secured for the Army?

These four questions appear all to relate to the enforcement of the Military Service Act, which is a matter for the Army Council, and any action which might be taken in the directions indicated in the Questions would be for that Council rather than for my Department, though I should be ready to render them any assistance within my power. I would remind the hon. and gallant Member that the Act applies only to single men of military age who were ordinarily resident in Great Britain on the 15th August last; and since November, when the question of compulsory service arose, passports to leave the country have not been issued to such persons save in exceptional circumstances.

Men of Military Age (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary whether the Local Government Board for Ireland has brought under his notice instances of large employers of labour in Ireland dismissing their Irish workmen and taking into their employment Englishmen of military age who have fled to Ireland to escape the Military Service Act, 1916; and what action has been or will be taken with reference to this illegal conduct?

The Local Government Board have received no information to the effect stated in the question. Perhaps the hon. Member would furnish me with particulars of the large employers of labour who have acted in this amazing way.

Agricultural Workers

( by Private Notice ): I beg to ask the Minister of Munitions whether, in view of the statement made on behalf of the Government yesterday that still further demands must be made for men upon the agricultural industry, he can make any statement as to the necessity for maintaining agricultural production and retaining on the land a sufficient number of agricultural workers?

It is true, as my hon. Friend says, that it will be necessary in the national interest to review the exemptions granted to certain classes of agricultural workers, but it must not be supposed that in taking this action the Government have failed to realise the importance of maintaining the highest possible output of home-grown food supplies, which remains a national object of a most essential nature. We should deprecate the removal from work on the land of labour which is really essential and irreplaceable for this purpose.

Has the Minister for Agriculture approved of the further steps to be taken to get labour from the land?

But has that decision the approval of the Minister for Agriculture? That is what my right hon. Friend asks.

Consumptive and Wounded Soldiers

asked the approximate number of men being treated out of Army funds for consumption, distinguishing between those who are suffering from consumption alone and those who are suffering from consumption and also from wounds or other injuries directly attributable to warfare?

The number of cases of tubercle of the lung under treatment in hospitals in the United Kingdom on the 29th February was 632. I have not the information to enable me to answer the latter part of the question.

Commutation of Pensions (Belper Union)

asked the Under-Secretary for War whether he has received a copy of a resolution passed by the guardians of the Belper Union, drawing attention of His Majesty's Government to the abuse of the practice of the commutation of pensions, to the danger arising therefrom, and at the same time suggesting certain remedies; and, if so, what steps, if any, does he propose to take in the matter?

Yes, Sir, I am aware that such resolutions have been passed by several boards of guardians, but an invitation to them to produce specific cases has not so far led to the production of any; and the framers of the resolution seem to have been imperfectly informed as to the existing practice. Commutation is most carefully controlled, and total commutation is in no case permitted.

Officers of German Extraction

asked the Under-Secretary for War whether there is a provisional battalion near the East Coast with several officers of German extraction; and, if so, what steps he proposes to take?

The attention of the Army Council has been drawn to the fact that there are two officers with German- sounding names in a provisional battalion somewhere on the East Coast. The Council have made inquiries and find there is not the slightest ground for suspicion of the two officers concerned, that they are both gentlemen who have given and are giving very good service to the country at the present moment, and there is no doubt whatever about either their loyalty or their suitability for the positions which they occupy.

Are they descended immediately from Germans or were they born in Germany?

Are there not some very distinguished families in this country of German extraction?

Commissions

20th Battalion Royal Fusiliers

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he has received any report as to the number of men now in the 20th Battalion Royal Fusiliers who have been offered commissions by commanding officers and who were unable to avail themselves of such offers on account of the refusal of the commanding officer to release them from this battalion; and, if not, will he call for such a report to be made immediately to him?

No, Sir. No report has been received. I must emphasise the fact that the commanding officer of a battalion is the sole judge of the fitness of individuals serving in the battalion for commissions. My hon. Friend is aware of the steps which I have taken in this case.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that answer conflicts materially with what he told me yesterday?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say if it is not a fact that men accepted by Officers' Training Corps have been rejected by the War Office?

No, Sir. The hon. Gentleman is mistaking two things. This is a question of a corps which is serving at the front which is not an Officers' Training Corps, and, therefore, has no connection with the matter my hon. Friend has in mind.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make inquiries as to the large number of men who have been offered commissions who have been unable to take up these commissions on account of the commanding officer refusing to release them?

I do not know that what my hon. Friend desires is a statistical record. What he really desires is that men who are serving in this battalion fitted for officers' rank should obtain commissions. To that end I will address myself. I do not think that to ask for statistical records is to help to beat the Germans.

asked whether reports were asked from each commanding officer of the Universities and Public Schools Battalions recently as to the number of men in each battalion who were suitable for commissions or to be trained for commissions; and what were the numbers of men reported by the commanding officers for each of these battalions, respectively?

The figures mentioned in the question are not in the possession of the War Office.

asked the number of men who, during the past six months, have left the 18th, 19th, 20th, and 21st Royal Fusiliers and 16th Middlesex (Public Schools Battalions), respectively, to take up commissions or to be trained for commissions?

This information could not be given without searching through thousands of forms, and I fear that I cannot undertake to have this search made.

In view of the answer of the right hon. Gentleman, I beg to give notice that I will raise this subject on the Motion for the Adjournment.

Egypt (Military Operations)

asked the Under-Secretary for War when he expects to be able to publish despatches dealing with operations in Egypt?

I will refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave on the 22nd February to the hon. and gallant Member for the Melton Division.

I would rather refer my hon. Friend to it, but roughly it was that long communiqués have been issued in the Press, and I do not think anything further can be said.

Did the right hon. Gentleman not say he would consider the question of publishing these despatches in the "London Gazette"? Has he hopes of that being done?

Pay of Officers (Indian Establishment)

asked the Under-Secretary for War if he is aware that, by an official letter from the War Office, dated 30th November, 1914, it was notified to all officers of British units borne on the Indian establishment at the date of mobilisation who had been or might be brought home on account of the War in Europe that they would receive pay at Indian rates; if he is aware that the difference between Indian and Home rates of pay is not more than sufficient to compensate officers who left India suddenly in the emergency of war for the expense and loss of having to break up their homes hastily and to dispose of their household effects for what they would fetch and to transport their families to England; whether, notwithstanding the official intimation of the 30th November, a letter, dated 23rd December, 1914, was sent to all general officers commanding all Home commands and Expeditionary Force intimating that British service officers who had come from India on war service were, in the event of their being wounded, to receive Indian rates of pay for three months only and thereafter British rates under British Regulations; if he is aware that many officers affected by this altered rate of pay only became aware of the change to their disadvantage when, after being three months on sick leave, they found themselves in receipt of the lower rate of pay; if he will say what steps were taken to ensure that the altered rate should be brought promptly to the knowledge of all officers affected by it; why the rule laid down in the official letter of the 30th November, 1914, has not been adhered to; and if he will restore to British officers from India serving in the War the rate of pay officially promised them?

These officers receive Indian rates of pay while on active service in France, that is to say, service in France is treated as equivalent to service in India. If an officer of a British unit in India comes home to this country on sick leave, he ceases to draw Indian rates on embarkation. In the case of officers coming to this country on sick leave from France it was decided after full consideration and consultation with the India Office to allow a special concession of three months on Indian pay.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that great injustice is being done to these officers who, when they left India for active service, were given to understand by official intimation that they would be throughout their service in Europe subject to Indian rates of pay?

I understand that this decision giving them three months of Indian pay while on sick leave is only in the nature of a concession.

War Office Contract (British Petroleum Company, Limited)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether a large part of the petrol required for aviation, transport, and other war purposes is distributed through the British Petroleum Company, Limited, which is German-owned; and, as at the end of the War German owners will have access to the records, will he cancel existing contracts and cease dealing with this company?

The contract for the supply of petrol for the requirements of the Home Forces is held by the Asiatic Petroleum Company, Limited, who at present employ the British Petroleum Company, Limited, as their distributing agents. The War Office is not a party to the contract between the two companies, and no question of cancellation therefore arises.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been called to standing orders which have been adopted by the Manchester City Council, and other bodies, to the effect that no contract shall be entered into by any firm or company whose subscribed capital is held or controlled to the extent of one-third or upwards by persons of German or Austrian nationality; and if steps will be taken to free British traders under contract with the British Petroleum Company, Limited, which is German-owned, from the odium or damage of being compelled to sell to that company?

My attention has not been called to the standing orders of the Manchester City Council referred to. The application of the Trading With the Enemy Amendment Act, 1916, to the British Petroleum Company, Limited, will shortly be considered by the Advisory Committee.

Army Commissions (Civilian Applicants)

asked what are the steps now necessary to be taken by civilians who are desirous of obtaining commissions in the Army?

A civilian who desires a permanent commission in the Army should write to the Secretary of the Civil Service Commission for the necessary forms of application to attend examinations for Woolwich and Sandhurst. If he desires a temporary commission he should write to the Secretary of the War Office for the necessary form of application, when he would be told how to proceed.

British Prisoners of War

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he has been furnished with complete lists of the British prisoners of war in Bulgaria, and if these can be published?

The number of prisoners of war in Bulgaria whom it has been possible to identify is 519, of whom seven are officers and the rest non-commissioned officers and men. The names of the officers have already been published, and those of 303 men will be published in the course of the next few days. The remaining names are awaiting complete verification by the record officers concerned. I may point out that the relatives of each man are notified individually as soon as possible after identification, and that the publication of the names in the Press is not the first intimation.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if the negotiations now in progress for an exchange of prisoners relate to all British prisoners in Turkish hands or only combatants; and if he can state what progress has been made with the negotiations?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The Ottoman Government have agreed in principle to the exchange of British and Ottoman incapacitated prisoners of war and a list of the latter is being prepared. His Majesty's Government have proposed to the Ottoman Government the exchange, man for man in equal numbers, of combatant prisoners of war and have requested full particulars regarding the number of British prisoners of war held by Turkey. Pending the receipt of this information it has been considered advisable to proceed as soon as possible with the exchange of the incapacitated prisoners of war. The negotiations for the general exchange of British and Ottoman civilian prisoners have been interrupted by the departure of the Ottoman Minister for War from Constantinople, but renewed efforts will be made to bring them to a successful conclusion on his return.

Have any arrangements yet been made with regard to the ladies at Bagdad who were removed to another place?

I must have notice. As far as I know there are no British in Bagdad now.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if all British prisoners of war in Bulgaria have been assembled at Philippopolis or, if any are confined in other places, if he can state where they are so that food and comforts may fee sent to them; and if he has any information as to the special needs of these prisoners and the best means by which they can be supplied?

It is understood that all British prisoners of war are now established at Philipopolis. This has been mainly due to the American Chargé d'Affaires at Sofia, who has at last obtained permission to visit these prisoners. No information is available as to the special needs of these prisoners. They have been supplied with some garments and small luxuries by the American Chargé d'Affaires. Parcels intended for officers or men known to be prisoners of war in the hands of the Bulgarians should be sent through the Post Office addressed in the usual way, that is to say, the name, regimental number and rank, followed by British Prisoners of War, Bulgaria, c.o.. General Post Office, London.

Military Isolation Hospitals, Cambridge

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to a resolution passed by the town council of the borough of Cambridge on Thursday, 2nd March, 1916, drawing the attention of the War Office to the lack of control of and to the insufficient guards placed at the military isolation hospitals in Cherryhinton Road and Newmarket Road, whereby patients are enabled to escape and thereby cause danger to the health of the community; and will he say what steps he proposes to take in the matter?

This matter is already under the consideration of the Army Council. I cannot state to-day what steps it is proposed to take in the matter.

Territorial Yeomanry

asked whether, seeing that it was stated in a War Office circular dated 2nd March, 1908, in reference to transfer from volunteer yeomanry into Territorial yeomanry, that the service of members of yeomanry corps who joined the Territorial Yeomanry would be con- tinuous as from 1st April, 1908, irrespective of the date of attestation, that a similar statement was contained in the attestation papers, and that certain members of the 1/1st Lanarkshire Yeomanry who transferred into their Territorial yeomanry and attested on the above footing, and have served the prescribed extra year after mobilisation, and who are now with the Mediterranean Expeditionary Force, will receive their discharge on 31st March, 1916?

If, as is stated in the question, the attestation papers of certain members of the Lanarkshire Yeomanry were endorsed to the effect that their term of enlistment in the Territorial Force would date from the 1st April, 1908, then primâ facie the date of discharge of such men would be the 31st March. It will, however, be obvious that the decision on the matter turns upon what is stated in the documents. I am drawing the attention of the Scottish Command to the hon. Member's question with a view to any necessary action being taken.

Naval and Military Services

Pensions and Grants

asked when the amended Royal Warrant dealing with the pensions payable to discharged soldiers will be published; and whether such amended warrant will be retrospective in its effect?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave yesterday on this subject to the hon. Member for East Edinburgh.

Can my hon. Friend hold out any hope that the issue of this warrant will be accelerated?

We are losing no time. We are very anxious not to prejudice the position of the soldiers, and that all the steps to be taken should be fully considered and the matter dealt with accordingly.

Questions

Royal Commission on Sugar

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he intends to issue a report of the Sugar Royal Commission; and, if so, whether the operations of the Commission down to 31st December, 1915, will be fully stated?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the information contained in the reply that I gave yesterday to the hon. and learned Member for York.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that there is a scarcity of sugar in Dublin; why the Royal Commission has not sent the necessary supply; and whether he will take steps to have a cargo of sugar sent to Dublin without delay?

Treasury Bills (Scotland)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that applicants in Scotland for Treasury bills are charged the remittance fee of the money in sending it to London, or if the applications are made direct to the Bank of England the Treasury bills are not issued until three to four days after the application, that is, until the money has been actually collected by the Bank of England; whether he is aware that this practice militates against the sale of Treasury bills in Scotland; and whether, in view of the inequality of this treatment of districts where no branches of the Bank of England exist, he will appoint a bank or banks in Scotland that will be in a position to sell these Treasury bills with out extra fees or loss of interest as compared with purchasers of such bills in London and the neighbourhood?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the last paragraph of my answer to a question put by him on the 26th January last, in which a similar point was raised in regard to Exchequer Bonds. I cannot admit that there is any inequality of treatment of various parts of the country in this matter. It is the invariable rule that interest on securities sold by the Treasury does not begin to accrue until the purchase money is actually received.

National War Savings

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware of the uncertainty in the public mind as to the conditions under which Exchequer Bonds and 15s. 6d. Certificates are issued free from Income Tax; and whether he will cause a short statement stating these conditions to be circulated to post offices, trustee savings banks, and joint stock banks?

I will bring my hon. Friend's suggestion to the notice of the National War Savings Committee. As regards the 15s. 6d. War Savings Certificates, I may say that these are entirely exempt from Income Tax, and the only Income Tax condition affecting them is that they cannot be held by an individual whose income exceeds £300 a year. This restriction does not, however, extend to the dependants of persons whose income exceeds £300 a year if they are not themselves also in receipt of an income exceeding that figure. The exemption from Income Tax, however, still awaits statutory sanction, which it is proposed to ask for in the Finance Bill.

Will my right hon. Friend draw the attention of the Treasury to the difficulty of understanding the question of Income Tax in reference to Exchequer Bonds?

Are we to understand that where these bonds are held by people with incomes between £130 and £300 the income from these bonds is free of Income Tax?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can make a statement as to the number of purchasers and amounts bought of £5, £20, and £50 Exchequer Bonds, respectively, and of 15s. 6d. certificates?

Up to the 16th March inclusive the total amount of Exchequer Bonds sold through the Post Office was £13,500,000, and the total number of purchasers 364,000. Figures for the three separate denominations are not available. Up to the 18th March inclusive the total number of 15s. 6d. War Savings Certificates sold was 1,100,000. It is not yet possible to give a figure for the number of purchasers.

Public Trusteeship (Scotland)

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that, in view of the number of deaths of Scottish soldiers at the front, a public demand has now sprung up for the institution of a public trusteeship for Scotland to look after the estates of these deceased soldiers; whether this demand is sufficient to induce him to introduce legislation on the subject during this Session; and, if not, will he say what demand he considers necessary?

The answer is in the negative. I do not see my way to introduce legislation to set up a new Department at the present time.

British Army (Total Number Required)

asked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Government have yet arrived at any decicision as to the total number of men who can be withdrawn from industry for fighting in the field while at the same time maintaining the financing of our Allies and providing them with munitions of war?

I must refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave the hon. Member for North Somerset on the 21st February, to which I have nothing to add.

Is it not a fact that the Prime Minister said that this matter would have the early attention of His Majesty's Government? The question which I desire to ask is whether the right hon. Gentleman has ever received any communication from the Treasury and the Board of Trade dealing with the particular number of men who are available.

Of course, the matter is engaging the attention, not merely of those two Departments, but of all others which are affected by the drain.

Is the Government no nearer to a decision now than it was when the last answer was given?

asked who is responsible for laying the facts of the British case against the Central Powers before the people of the United States; and whether this work is undertaken by the Department presided over by Mr. C. Masterman?

The facts of the case of Great Britain and her Allies are explained to the American people through the representatives of the American Press and through other American channels devoted to the formation of opinion in the United States, but His Majesty's Government are, and will always be, ready to give to those representatives every possible facility for obtaining information as to, and explanations of, current events or policy. As regards the second part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave to the Member for St. Augustine's on 26th January last and to previous answers on the same subject.

Surely my right hon. Friend can answer a simple question? What I desire to do is to call the attention of the House to this question. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order."] Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of my question, so as to enable us to call attention to the matter on the Vote?

It is obviously undesirable that any arrangements such as those which are suggested by my hon. Friend in this question should be a matter of publicity.

Is not work being carried on by the hon. Member for Gravesend (Sir Gilbert Parker) without any salary?

Mr. Masterman's Salary

asked the Prime Minister the reasons why he declines to give the House the information what Vote is charged with Mr. C. Masterman's salary?

I must refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave yesterday on this subject.

Can the right hon. Gentleman not tell us the Vote under? which it is to be taken?

Arrests

asked the Prime Minister when he proposes to introduce a Bill to restore the right of personal liberty until forfeited on conviction of an offence proved according to law?

If my hon. Friend has in mind the question of internments under Regulation 14B, made under the Defence of the Realm Acts, I would refer him to the speech made by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary on the 2nd March, to which I can only add that it is not proposed to introduce legislation on this subject.

I had in my mind precisely what is on the Paper, and as the right hon. Gentleman does not answer the question, I beg to postpone it until Tuesday next.

Trading With Germany (Marble Tables)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that quantities of manufactured marble tables are now imported from Belgium; that in some cases the firms supplying these insist on being paid for them in English money, which must eventually get into the hands of the enemy; and will he either stop this importation or allow British merchants to trade with Germany on the same terms as they now do with Belgium, which is under German rule?

Importers of Belgian goods are required to deposit the purchase money into a blocked account in a bank in the United Kingdom, from which it cannot be withdrawn except under licence. I am not prepared to disturb this arrangement, which has been arrived at after careful consideration of all the circumstances.

Re-Employment After War

asked the President of the Board of Trade if, in considering proposals for dealing with the re-employment of labour after the War, consideration is being given to the importance of greater powers being conferred upon the Department of Labour Exchanges, with the object of making these institutions a real medium for the supply of and demand for labour, and that in order to co-ordinate the various voluntary and other organisations dealing with the employment question powers should be obtained to make the Labour Exchanges the chief or only medium through which employment will be regulated; and, in view of the importance of the re-employment question after the War, will steps be taken to call a conference of employers and men to consider the whole question, or a large and well-equipped committee appointed to draw up a comprehensive scheme?

All these suggestions shall be borne in mind in the examination which is taking place of the various problems which will arise at the end of the War.

Restricted Imports

Dried and Canned Fruits

asked the President of the Board of Trade what is the nature of the guarantees demanded of shippers of dried and canned fruits in the cases where the contracts were placed last year and for which space on steamers has already been booked?

Guarantees will be required from the agents of the ship-owners that space for the goods which are allowed to be imported was actually booked before the 27th January.

Wood

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, with a view to secure more tonnage space, he will extend the Proclamation of the 15th February so as to include oak in the list of woods which may not be imported?

Proposals for a considerable extension of the list of prohibited imports are now under consideration, and in this connection I will bear the hon. Gentleman's suggestion in mind.

Will the right, hon. Gentleman also bear in mind that the price of home-grown oak has gone up 300 per cent.?

Questions

South-Eastern and Chatham Railway (Workmen's Trains)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received any reply from the managing committee of the South-Eastern and Chatham Railway Company respecting the closing of certain South London railway stations, and the stoppage of all workmen's train services on part of their system; is he aware that the company have already issued posters stating the services will be stopped next month; and whether, in view of the obligations of this railway company under Statute to run workmen's trains daily on this part of their line, he will take steps to compel the company to run some workmen's trains daily from all South London stations of this company to and from City stations?

I have sent my hon. Friend a copy of the reply received from the Managing Committee of the South Eastern and Chatham Railway, in which they explain that the action they are taking has been rendered necessary by the heavy requirements of Government traffic, and that the only alternative would be to withdraw trains in districts where there is no other means of communication. In the circumstances, I do not think that I can usefully interfere with the committee's discretion.

College of Nursing

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has been asked to incorporate a college of nursing; whether he has received protests from societies of trained nurses, in particular the Scottish Society; and whether, in view of the Bill before Parliament prior to the War dealing with trained nurses, he proposes to do so?

I have received certain protests against the grant of a licence to enable a college of nursing to be incorporated with limited liability without the addition of the word "limited" to its name, including one from the Scottish Society of Trained Nurses, but I have not yet received any application for such a licence.

Suppose my right hon. Friend receives an application, will he bear in mind that there was a Bill before Parliament on the subject, and will he remember that in giving his decision?

German Exports

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he can state for the year 1913, or earlier complete year, the value of German exports to Russia, France, Italy, and Belgium, and if he can state what proportion of these exports were manufactured goods; and if he will issue and publish the full details of all these German exports, so that British and Colonial manufacturers and merchants might know the class of goods exported by Germany to those countries?

I will have a statement printed in the OFFICIAL REPORT showing the total value of the German exports to the destinations in question in 1913, distinguishing manufactures.

As regards the last part of the question, I must direct my hon. Friend's attention to the series of bulletins, 102 in number, relating to British competition with Germany and Austria-Hungary in the principal markets of the world which have been published by the Board of Trade. The information furnished in these bulletins is I think of far greater value to British exporters than that which would be afforded by any mere digest of German official trade statistics. I am sending my hon. Friend a selection of the bulletins for perusal. [ See Written Answers. ]

Steamship Services (Belfast)

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that, owing to the suspension of the steamship services between Belfast and Heysham, Fleetwood, and Liverpool in consequence of labour disputes, quantities of goods for Government purposes are held up and goods for foreign shipment under licences with time limits cannot be forwarded, in addition to which inconvenience and loss is occasioned to the general public; and if he will use his powers to the utmost to compel the immediate resumption of these services in the national interests?

I am afraid I cannot say more at the moment than that the matter is receiving the earnest attention of the Board of Trade, who fully realise the importance of the considerations to which the hon. Gentleman refers.

Can the right hon. Gentleman hold out any prospect of a settlement of the labour dispute and a resumption of these services?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, although a cargo service is still running between Belfast and Preston, the railway companies in certain towns of Yorkshire refuse to accept traffic from Ireland by any route whatsoever, and does he intend to take steps to compel the companies to remove this embargo?

I was not aware of the action of the railway companies, but I should like to have notice of the question.

As this is a matter of great urgency, will the right hon. Gentleman make inquiry, having regard to the fact that these industries, many of them very important, are practically paralysed?

National Insurance Act

Tuberculosis

asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, if he will state, approximately, the number of men discharged from the Army with tuberculosis since August, 1914, who, being insured persons under Part I. of the National Insurance Act, 1911, became, upon discharge, eligible for and received sanatorium benefit?

Approximately 2,000 cases of tuberculous soldiers have passed through the hands of the several Commissions in connection with the special arrangements made in April, 1915, for the provision of immediate residential treatment for discharged tuberculous soldiers, and have been provided with treatment. In addition, it is known that a large number of soldiers who became, on or after discharge, eligible for sanatorium benefit, have made application for the benefit direct to the local insurance committees, who have afforded treatment without reference to the Insurance Commissioners. The actual number of such cases (including, of course, many cases which arose before the special arrangements were established) could not be obtained without a special return from all Insurance Committees in the United Kingdom.

Questions

School Hours (Edlesborough)

asked the President of the Board of Education if his attention has been called to the action of the Edlesborough, Bucks, Education Authority in altering the hours of school attendance so that they now begin at 8 a.m. and end at 2 p.m., after which hour the children are invited to accept employment upon the land; and whether he can state the nature of the work in question, the daily hours worked, and the number of children involved, with their ages?

The attention of the Board has not been called to this case except by my hon. Friend's question. The Board have no information with regard to the latter part of the question, but they are instructing their inspector to pay special attention to the working of the arrangement.

Munitions

Textile Operatives' Society, Ireland

asked the Minister of Munitions whether the secretary of the Textile Operatives' Society of Ireland has notified his Department that a large number of women workers in the factories in Belfast have for the past two years only been working about forty hours per week, instead of their normal hours of fifty-five per week; and, seeing that volunteers for munition work are being sought for, can he say if the offer of these workers will be accepted by his Department?

I have received a communication from the society referred to, and the matter is receiving the careful consideration of the Department. I may, how- ever, point out that there is not at present any shortage of women for munition work in Belfast.

Workers' Badges

asked the Minister of Munitions how many badges have been returned by employers to the Ministry of Munitions in respect of employés who have enlisted, attested, or left their employment?

Up to 11th March 32,231 badges in all had been returned by employers to the Department on various grounds. I am not in a position to say how many of these were returned in respect of employés who had enlisted or left their employment. The fact that a man has attested does not involve the withdrawal of his badge.

asked the Minister of Munitions how many fresh badges were issued by his Department during the last week of February or for the last completed week for which returns are available?

The number of badges issued in the week ending the 11th March, the latest for which the figures are available, was 6,645.

Are badges issued to men who are being employed as substitutes for men who are going on enlistment?

Women's Demonstration

asked the Minister of Munitions if he can state how much public money was paid by the Ministry of Munitions in respect of the procession and demonstration organised by Mrs. Pankhurst; to whom was the money paid; and whether any part of the public money was used to provide the fancy symbolical costumes worn by the ladies on that occasion?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to the hon. Member for North-West Meath on 16th March?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he has been informed by this body whether the money given was actually paid, because Members of this House are receiving accounts for tradesmen who are still unpaid?

All the bills and vouchers were seen by my hon. Friend before a penny was paid.

In the reply no amount is mentioned, and the right hon. Gentleman was asked what amount was actually paid?

I think if the hon. Gentleman will take the trouble to look into the answer he will see that is covered.

Was a lump sum given to Mrs. Pankhurst or spent by the Department itself?

Is the statement in the Press true that £3,000 was paid to Mrs. Pankhurst?

Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that it is introducing a very vicious and dangerous principle into public life that an apparently free and spontaneous demonstration should be secretly paid for by public money?

On the contrary, there have been many demonstrations in connection with appeals to munition workers and others which are borne on the Votes, which the hon. Gentleman will see when they come on. It was exceedingly desirable at that moment that we should stir up the people in order to obtain the assistance of women in munition works, and as a result of that and other demonstrations we have had thousand and scores of thousands of women in munition works, and we have been able to increase the output enormously and spare men for the Army.

Can the right hon. Gentleman account for this resentment on the part of hon. Members who dislike having either men or munitions?

asked the Minister of Munitions whether any public money has been paid by him to Mrs. Pankhurst, Mrs. Drummond, or Miss Annie Kenney apart from that paid on the occasion of the procession and demonstration in London; and whether any of the meetings of these ladies in South Wales, the Clyde, or elsewhere were subsidised out of public funds?

"Britannia" Publication

asked the Minister of Munitions whether the Mrs. Pankhurst who organised the procession paid for out of public moneys is the same Mrs. Pankhurst who runs a journal entitled "Britannia," which attacks public officials who cannot defend themselves; and whether, when money was paid to the Women's Social and Political Union, steps were taken to ensure that no part of it was used for the purpose of printing and publishing this journal?

The procession in respect of which contributions were made by the Ministry of Munitions took place in July, 1915. I understand that the paper "Britannia" did not come into existence till some months later.

Does not every issue of the "Britannia" state that it is the successor of the paper called the "Suffragette"?

Questions

Tramway Transport Facilities

asked the President of the Local Government Board if, owing to the difficulty arising because of the scarcity of team labour, he will give facilities for the transport of coal, raw material, etc., by tramways owned by local authorities?

The Board of Trade will be happy to consider any specific proposals of this character with which they have power to deal.

If they have not the power to deal with this matter, and if the local authorities bring in a Bill, would the Board of Trade do all that is possible to facilitate them in getting the power?

I should like to see the Bill before I commit myself. We are generally in favour of adding to the means of transport no matter who owns them.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if the local authorities have to obtain power by Private Bill they cannot possibly get the power in that way before the mid-summer of 1917?

Food Production (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary if he will say how much of the untenanted land acquired by the Estates Commissioners, and withheld by them from distribution, they are putting under tillage crops this season, in pursuance of the policy of increasing food production; and if they are tilling more of it than available allottees would till in present circumstances, will he say how much more?

The Estates Commissioners do not deal with untenanted land pending completion of arrangements for distribution in the manner suggested in the question, but in the way I indicated in reply to the hon. Member on the 18th January last.

asked the Chief Secretary what the Local Government Board for Ireland have done towards increase of food production since the outbreak of war by encouraging the increase of labourers' plots from half an acre to an acre, as provided by Statute; how many plots have been so increased in that time; on what grounds some schemes for increase have been held in suspense by the Board; and whether the Board will give immediate sanction to all such increases awaiting their approval, in order that the labourers may get in crops this season?

The restrictions which the Treasury found it necessary to make with regard to capital expenditure consequent on the War debar the Local Government Board from sanctioning loans for the purpose mentioned in the question. In a considerable number of cases it is found that existing cottage plots have either not been tilled at all or insufficiently tilled, having regard to the Council's letting regulations, which require that at least one-half of the plot should be cultivated each year, and the Board have communicated with a number of Rural District Councils in the matter.

Cerebro-Spinal Meningitis

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether a single case of cerebro-spinal meningitis has been proved to arise from contact with any one of the fifteen soldiers now segregated as carriers at Fulham Military Hospital; whether a carrier of disease can be made not to be a carrier, and, if not, whether their segregation is to be lifelong; whether he can specify a single case of this disease which has ever been proved to arise from contact with persons not themselves suffering from it; and whether the advice on which the alleged carriers are treated is based on anything more substantial than an unproved theory which is not only not accepted but widely disputed and denied in medical circles?

The answer to the first part of the question is that two cases have so arisen; to the first half of the second "as a general rule, yes," and therefore to the second half "No"; to the third part "certainly"; and to the last part that the carrier theory in this and other diseases has been fully proved, and is widely accepted by the medical profession.

Oxford Rhodes Scholarships

asked the Prime Minister whether he has been consulted by the Rhodes Trustees or the University of Oxford as to the introduction of a Private Bill which the Rhodes Trustees are proposing to introduce affecting the Rhodes scholarships at Oxford; and, if so, whether the proposals of the Rhodes Trustees have received the approval of the Board of Education?

When my hon. Friend last questioned me on this subject, I was informed by the Rhodes Trustees that it was proposed to introduce a private Bill to deal with the question of German scholars. The provisions of the proposed Bill were not communicated to me. The answer to the last part of the question is, I am informed, in the negative.

Old Age Pensions (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland what is the rule in accordance with which the Local Government Board for Ireland disallow old age pensions for non-compliance with a techni- cality when otherwise the facts and circumstances establish a legal title, as in the, case of a parent becoming incapacitated from age, and the son, without any legal formality, becoming real owner of the home and of the chattels thereon; why the Board, at the instance of an English inspector unacquainted with Irish life, deprived Mary Fagan, of Dyreen, Coole, Westmeath, of her pension in disregard of the facts as above, certified after investigation by the local pension committee; whether the English inspector reported that the holding is reclaimed bog situated two miles from a public road and barely accessible in wet weather, and that, this woman of eighty years not understanding half what he said, he erroneously ascribed to her certain stock in which her son is a small dealer and which he puts on the land at intervals in the course of that business; there being a conflict between the strange inspector and the committee familiar with the facts, whether the Board will take other steps to verify the facts; and, the pension having been stopped on account of certain transient property in no sense belonging to the pensioner, whether the pension will be restored?

A question was raised by the pension officer as to the right of Mary Fagan to continue in receipt of a pension of 5s. a week and was referred to the Local Government Board on appeal in December last, and, after due consideration, the pension was withdrawn by a decision given on the 15th January last. Mary Fagan resides on a farm of 32 acres of indifferent land, which, in addition to the usual crops, carries seven cattle, horse, sow and pigs, and a large quantity of fowl. One of this woman's sons deals in cattle and pigs, marketing from ten to twenty of the former each year. Mary Fagan was also reported to have at least £100 in the bank. Apart from the question of the ownership of the farm and stock, the Board are bound by the Old Age Pensions Acts to take into account the value of benefits and privileges enjoyed by claimant or pensioner, and in this case, having regard to the income and size of the household, they came to the conclusion that the pensioner's means exceed £31 10s. per annum. Mary Fagan made no reply to the usual notice given her as to lodgment of appeal, and no inspector of the Board visited her. The reference to an "English" inspector, therefore, presumably is intended to apply to the pension officer, as to whose nationality the Board have no information. There is no power vested in the Local Government Board to reconsider a decision given under the Old Age Pensions Acts, unless the case again comes before them on an appeal lodged against a fresh claim.

If another appeal is lodged, will the Local Government Board have the facts investigated by another inspector?

They have not had an inspector at all yet. If an appeal does come, and if the lady applies for an inspector, she will get one.

Irish Local Bodies (Estimated Expenditure)

asked the Chief Secretary by what amount the aggregate estimates of expenditure for the coming year of boards of guardians and of asylum boards, respectively, exceed the aggregate expenditure of the same bodies in the last completed year for which the figures are available?

In the case of district and auxiliary asylums in Ireland, the total net expenditure in the year ended on the 31st March, 1915, was £600,174; the aggregate of the estimates for 1916–17 is £722,106, of which a portion will be required to clear off deficits which it is anticipated will exist at the close of the current financial year. The expenditure of unions in Ireland was £586,472 in the year ended on the 30th September, 1914. The aggregate of their estimates in the coming year could not be ascertained without an expenditure of time and labour which would hardly be justified in present circumstances.

Private Business

Cardiff Railway Bill,—reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Message from the Lords.—Consolidation Bills,—That they communicate that they have come to the following Resolution, namely: That it is desirable that all Consolidation Bills in the present Session be referred to a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament.

That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to facilitate the insurance against war risks of property subject to trusts." [War Risks (Insurance by Trustees) Bill [ Lords. ]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to extend the time for the construction of certain waterworks authorised by The Burnley Corporation Act, 1908, to confer further powers upon the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the borough of Burnley in regard to their water undertaking; and for other purposes." [Burnley Corporation Bill [ Lords. ]

And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to postpone the repayment of certain mortgages granted by the Swansea Harbour Trustees; and for other purposes." [Swansea Harbour Bill [ Lords. ]

Burnley Corporation Bill [ Lords ],

Swansea Harbour Bill [ Lords ],

Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

Orders of the Day

Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

Wounded Soldiers

I desire to call the attention of the House to a matter which I think will appeal to all Members, and especially to my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the War Office, because it reveals a state of things of such undeserved hardship that I cannot believe that it has really come under the review of my hon. Friend. Throughout the War, and I believe it was the same in the South African War, officers on sick leave have had a ration allowance of 1s. 9d. a day, but quite recently an order has been issued cancelling this allowance entirely. It does not sound a very large sum, but it is a matter of consideration to these officers, and to have it cut off in this way is a great hardship upon them. Another remarkable aspect of the hardship arises when you consider that whereas officers who were wounded early in the War have been receiving the allowance up to now, officers who have been fighting all the time and have now come back wounded find that they cannot get it. It must be remembered that the phrase "officer class," which used formerly to be used, has little bearing in a monetary sense upon a great number of the officers who have been fighting in this War. A large number of them are men who would never have felt themselves justified in entering a profession to which they could not possibly look for the support of those dependent upon them; they have joined the Army out of sheer patriotism, and many of them are left in a very difficult position so far as their families are concerned. We usually think of an officer, especially a subaltern, as a man with a home at the back of him. but in the case of many of these men their homes were broken up when they joined the Army, and their dependants—mothers, sisters wives—knowing they could receive little or no support from those who had hitherto been perhaps their sole support, went to live with friends or in lodgings. Therefore, when these officers come home on sick leave, perhaps for a long time, this allowance of 1s. 9d. a day is obvi- ously a consideration to many of them. It seems to me an extraordinary thing that suddenly, by an order of the 28th February, the whole of the allowance should be cut off. I believe that hon. Members below the Gangway opposite will agree that this is an injustice. It must be remembered, too, that there is no separation allowance for the wives and families of officers. It seems to me to be a case of extreme hardship, and I cannot think that it has been done with the cognisance of my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary. Perhaps I may, in addition to what I have said, ask the Financial Secretary, in his reply, to take the opportunity of saying something in regard to one or two other questions which have been mentioned in recent Debates. In particular I would refer to the point raised by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Gorton (Mr. Hodge) as to pensions for nurses, and to that raised by the hon. Member for Plymouth, who inquired as to the method of assessing pensions for soldiers who have lost limbs as the result of active service. But I would very specially draw the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to my first point. I have received information from various quarters, and it is astonishing the vast number of officers who are now suffering from wounds sustained on behalf of the country. I cannot help thinking that it is highly desirable that the Financial Secretary should see his way to reconsider this matter.

Perhaps it would be convenient if I at once dealt with the point raised by my hon. Friend opposite, as I understand that other hon. Members have different questions which they wish to bring before the House. My hon. Friend was good enough to give notice yesterday that he wished to raise this question. The reception it has met with from the House at large leads me to think that the House would view with considerable misgiving any question of the reduction of pay or allowances to officers who are at home on sick leave. But the House will readily understand that in these days throughout the Army there is a very genuine desire to economise as far as possible. The House, however, will also, I think, take the view that while economy is most desirable there are certain questions which ought to be approached in a spirit of broad-minded and general consideration; that our view should not be restricted wholly by mere financial considerations. I have this morning consulted some of my colleagues in regard to this particular matter, and we are agreed that some of the considerations that should have carried weight were not sufficiently taken into account in reaching the decision to which the hon. Gentleman alluded. We propose to reconsider the question, I hope, in a generous spirit. I trust the House will be satisfied with that assurance. As to the other questions to which my hon. Friend has alluded, that of pensions for nurses in the Army, a matter which was raised the other night by the hon. Member for Gorton, I may say that at the outbreak of the War there was a system of pensions and disablement allowances for the Army nursing staff. There were various qualifications as to length of service and so on. These are wholly inapplicable to present conditions. We are just as much alive as any Member of this House may be as to the great debt we owe the nursing staff generally.

It is not necessary to say a single word to remind us of the inexpressible debt that both the country and the soldiers generally owe to the heroic and untiring efforts of the nursing staff. We have taken steps to institute a special scale of pensions for those nurses who are disabled either by diseases, accident, or anything of the kind wholly and directly due to service, or aggravated by service, and I hope that that scale of pensions which we have framed will be sufficiently generous to meet the case. We discussed the matter with the head of the nursing service, the matron-in-chief, and I hope the House will be satisfied with the scale that has been laid down. My hon. Friend alluded to another important question which was raised by the hon. Member for Plymouth two or three days ago. I was asked to make clear to the general comprehension the method of assessing pensions in the cases of those soldiers who have lost limbs. The hon. Member for Plymouth quoted an instance where two soldiers, each of whom had lost a leg, were working side by side, one of them drawing a pension of 25s. a week and the other drawing a pension of only 10s. 6d. a week. He commented upon the prevalent belief amongst the soldiers that it was undesirable from their point of view to qualify themselves by skill and industry for a trade, because if they did the mere fact that they had become sufficiently skilful to earn their living adversely affected their pensions. I would like to make it perfectly clear that it does not matter what a soldier earns, because, his pension is calculated on his physical condition. It is not upon the amount of money that he earns. I am quite sure the House will support the Government in taking the view that it is most desirable, if not essential, from every point of view, to get disabled soldiers back into industrial life, and unless you make it worth their while to start earning for themselves as quickly as possible you are doing a disservice, not only to them, but to the community.

4.0 P.M.

I want it, therefore, to be generally and clearly known that in assessing pensions it does not matter what a man earns at the moment: what is taken into account is his capacity to earn—that is his physical condition. It may be clearly realised from that that you may have a man who is earning nothing whose pension will be reduced because there is nothing in his physical condition to prevent him from earning, if he is so inclined; while, on the other hand, you may have a man who is earning a very considerable rate of wages and at the same time drawing a considerable pension. Let the House remember this—and I hope the soldiers will understand—for we are trying to make it as plain as we can—that when a man has lost a limb he is treated, and properly treated, by the Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital as totally incapacitated for a certain length of time, and he gets the full rate of pension of 25s. per week. He is given the full rate of pension for at least two months after he has been fitted with an artificial limb. This is desirable and necessary, for it takes time for a man to get accustomed to his new apparatus. Now, the man gets his full scale of pension for a certain time—let us say six months. At the end of that time his case is reviewed, his physical condition is closely examined, and, if the verdict of the doctors is that his physical condition is sufficient to enable him to earn his living to the extent of, let us say, one-half, his pension is reduced. It docs not matter how much the man is earning at that time. If his physical condition is so much improved as to permit him in the open labour market to earn at least half of the full living, his pension is adjusted on that account, and not on account of the particular amount of money he may happen to be earning at the moment. I have only one further word to say in reference to this question, and that is to explain a matter which did not puzzle the hon. and gallant Member for Plymouth, because he is one of those people who are happy enough to have the means and the consideration to start in his own home a school for these limbless men, where they can acquire special skill to enable them to earn their living in later years. Therefore, it is not to explain matters to him, but to explain them to the public, that I refer to a case which has been quoted, where you have soldiers equally crippled, of the same age, working side by side, one in receipt of a pension of 25s. a week and the other in receipt of a pension of 10s. 6d. It is quite obvious, if the House reflects upon it for a moment, that you may have two men in employment at the same moment, both of them having lost a leg. One of them has made a quicker recovery than the other. Both of them have got 25s. a week for, let us say, six months. The one goes into the new employment after the expiration of six months, when his pension has been reduced, let us say, to 10s. 6d. The other goes into employment during the course of the six months, having made a quicker recovery than the other. That undoubtedly is the case that my hon. Friend had in mind when he quoted the incident. What I want the House to realise, and what I want soldiers to realise, is that it does not pay them, and it ought not to pay them, to refuse to take employment simply for the sake of retaining their pension at the highest scale. We do not assess their pension by the standard of what they earn; we assess their pension according to their physical capacity.

Enemy Aircraft Raids

There are one or two small points I want to raise, practically at the request of the civic authorities on the South-East Coast, with regard to the air raid last Sunday. I do not propose in any way to raise the whole air question, which has been debated, and which, I hope, will be debated very soon again on a day to be given by the Government. But there are one or two points in which, I think, my right hon. Friend will be able to help civic authorities, as I think, after what I have said, he will feel they are entitled to some help. As the House knows, the whole of the South-East Coast is particularly open to air raids, and every possible help should be given to those people who bear the first brunt of German attacks. Really the only question of difference, I think, between them and the War Office at the present moment is as to the giving of notice of the approach of enemy aircraft. I am not going to discuss the whole question as to whether London, for instance, should receive notice, because it is agreed that, so far as the South-East Coast is concerned, it is desirable to give notice in order that the people of those towns can keep under shelter at a time when raids take place. The only point between the civic authorities and the War Office at the present moment appears to be as to whether the notice, given by blowing a syren should be given by the civic authorities immediately, or whether they are to wait until the naval and military authorities, as the case may be, should wake up, if I may say so, to give notice as to the blowing of the syren.

In the early part of February a conference was held by the mayors of the various towns on and around the South-East Coast. and a resolution was passed urging that the time was come when adequate and sufficient warning should be given to their districts of the approach of aircraft, and that strong and energetic action be taken by the responsible authorities to combat the approach of enemy aircraft. Naturally that is a resolution anyone interested in the South-East Coast would be sure to pass. That resolution was sent up to Field-Marshal Lord French, who has now charge of the air defences of England, asking him to receive a deputation of the mayors in question. It was sent on l7th February and acknowledged on the 19th, with the intimation that a deputation would be received. They wrote again on the 22nd, and it is rather remarkable to note that the Field-Marshal, who has now the control of the aircraft, replied on the 23rd by his Secretary, that "Lord French is away inspecting," and would not be able to receive the deputation for some few days. It bears out exactly what I said when last I spoke, that the Field-Marshal had the inspection of all the new armies which are being created, and that it was wrong to give an over-burdened official the duty of looking after the aircraft defence of the South-East Coast and practically the whole of England. However, the deputation took place on February 28th, when these mayors met Lord French. They were, if I may say so, very respectful to that high military authority. They merely asked him whether something more could be done to help them in their somewhat dire distress, because by that time another raid had taken place. Their proposal to Lord French was that when a report is received by the naval or military authorities of the approach of air-craft, it should at once be transmitted to the chief constable of every town in the district where the raid is likely to take place, and the chief constable should be allowed to use his discretion whether the town is warned by syren or not. They pointed out to Lord French that that was the arrangement until the middle of 1915, and the civic authorities and the police, as soon as they got notice of a raid, were allowed to blow their syrens in order that people might be kept indoors. They remarked to Lord French that the German airships that went to Cliftonville, Margate, and dropped bombs were sighted by the. Ramsgate anti-aircraft patrol, but information had to be sent to the Admiralty before Westgate air station could be warned. Those towns cluster very closely together all round the South-East Coast of England. When one town sees an air craft—in this case an airship—coming over—

This date I honestly have not got. I am reading now from a report of the speech of the Mayor of Ramsgate to Lord French, and I have not Lord French's remarks. It was quite recently, and they were dealing with recent raids: the Broadstairs police at 7.37 p.m., "Zeppelin over North Foreland steering west." They subsequently found out at the naval office that they had received that information at 6.20. Here is an actual concrete case. The naval office received the information at 6.20 and the civic and police authorities did not receive it till 7.37, and you must remember that the civic authorities are the people—perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me for saying—who bear the whole responsibility. They are the elected representatives of the people, and they are the persons to whom the people in. that district go and who get most of the blame.

I have had the opportunity of seeing personally the mayors of some of these towns. I am informed that they have great difficulty in getting intimation of these raids from the naval officers. With regard to the particular raid that took place last Sunday afternoon by German aeroplanes, the mayor of one of these towns assured me that the first thing he noticed was firing in the direction of Dover. I am not giving the Germans any information. The published statement issued by the Press Bureau was that the aircraft first appeared over Dover at 1.57 and reached Ramsgate at 2.10. The first indication that something was taking place was the sound of guns firing in the direction of Dover. After the bombs had fallen and the machines had disappeared, then, and not till then, did the naval authorities authorise the blowing of the syren. I have here an official statement by the engineer of the Ramsgate Corporation, who owns the gasworks which blows the syren, that he received intimation from the naval authorities at 2.15, and within ten seconds of the receipt of the order the syren had been started. My point is that no one is allowed to blow the syren, although it belongs to the local authorities, under regulations made by my right hon. Friend or somebody who is responsible for the defence of the realm, until an order has been received from the competent naval or military authorities. Although the mayor had gone to the police-station, although they had consulted together and inquired in this particular instance last Sunday afternoon whether any news had been received from the naval authority, although their own ears told them firing was going on so near that there might be a raid, they were unable to blow the syren, and the result was a number of deaths in the place. It may be a small point, but I do not think it is. I have been asked by the mayor to say that if that syren had been allowed to be blown those children who were going to Sunday school would most naturally have been kept at home, and in all probability the slaughter of these innocent ones would not have taken place.

Those are the principal points, and I do not think there can really be any dispute. Since that raid the town council of Ramsgate has passed some strongish resolution asking the right hon. Gentleman, or whoever is responsible, to give them power and give them earlier information. The council was called together on Sunday night—the first time, I believe, in the history of Ramsgate that such an event has occurred. They resolved that the attention of the proper authorities be drawn to the raid, and that at the earliest possible moment, as soon as the military or naval authorities should know wherever enemy aircraft are, they should immediately communicate with the local authority. That is the gravamen of their request to the House. I know that this has been put before Lord French, and Lord French has, up to the present, refused to grant that request. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman as being more representative of the people here, and I ask now whether there is any real reason why the civic and police authorities should not be allowed to have this notice the moment there is any idea of hostile aircraft coming near the coast. There are two sides to the question, because I am aware that the aircraft may be coming to London and may sheer off, but I think when hostile aircraft is coming over the coast the people in the coast towns are entitled to have information in order that they may give what they consider to be the necessary warnings in order that their people may keep indoors. I have been requested to ask my right hon. Friend if he would make inquiries as to who was in charge on the South-East Coast in connection with the naval or military authorities, and what steps they took on that afternoon.

My hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Captain Bennett-Goldney) made some very strong statements here some few weeks ago in regard to the conduct of some of the officers responsible for antiaircraft matters, and the right hon. Gentleman opposite gave a very general, and, I think, an explicit, denial to some of those statements. I think it is only fair that I should say that I have personally spoken to the mayors of local authorities in those districts, and they confirm absolutely every word that was said by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Canterbury, and they positively assure me that the statements made by the hon. and gallant Member were exactly and actually correct. I am sorry it is so, but they said to me again only yesterday that something of the same kind took place on Sunday last, and that the officers who should have been in control were not in control at the time. They were away perhaps lunching, or something of that kind, but things are now so serious that, while I believe a naval officer is entitled to have his lunch, there should be a subordinate in charge while he is away in order that at the moment, and at every moment throughout the day and night, the amplest possible protection should be afforded to all our people against these German air raids. I do not want to give any names, but I will give the right hon. Gentleman the names of the officers, who were mentioned quite freely at the meetings of the town council, and I feel quite sure that he will make such inquiries as I think we are entitled to ask for.

I wish to ask a question as to what is the right of every naval or military person who possesses a lethal weapon of any sort or kind to fire at approaching enemy aircraft? I believe the right hon. Gentleman opposite has stated that soldiers are entitled to fire at aeroplanes, and he stated this in reply to questions put by the hon. Member for Yarmouth (Mr. Fell). There is accumulating evidence that the naval and military authorities do not understand those orders, and I want my right hon. Friend to make it perfectly clear that it will be impossible in the future that anybody, be he a soldier or sailor or anyone else, should fail to fire whenever a Zeppelin or an enemy aeroplane appears. On the 13th September, 1915, there was an air raid on the South-East Coast, and on that occasion not a single shot was fired by the military or naval authorities. On the 9th February this year, on a fine afternoon, two enemy seaplanes came over the sea midway between Broadstairs and Ramsgate, and in close proximity to where they entered there was a squad of armed Engineers belonging to the Territorials; and these men refrained from firing because there was no officer present to give an order to this effect. None of our aeroplanes were sent up until after the raiders had left. Again, on the 1st March, only three weeks ago, in the afternoon, enemy aeroplanes came over Cliftonville, and on that occasion my information is that the aeroplanes were within rifle shot both at Margate and Kingsgate, and no attempts were made to fire upon the raiders because they had no orders from their superior officers. I am aware that this may be gossip, but soldiers will talk to their fellow townsmen, and several of these soldiers have stated that had such orders been given the machines in all probability would have been hit, as they were well within rifle fire. I would like to know if there is anything in these statements or not. I notice the hon. Gentleman opposite is smiling, probably about the idea of aeroplanes being dealt with by rifle fire, but had this been done it would be encouraging to the people who are being bombed if they knew that every naval and military authority was on the alert, and that they would fire whenever there was the slightest possibility of a stray bullet going through the petrol tank of an aeroplane which would do a great deal of damage to the aeroplane, and as my hon. Friend says, would make a mess of it. I do ask the right hon. Gentleman to take into consideration the requests of these people living almost in the war zone, and I hope he will give his utmost consideration to seeing whether something more cannot be done to meet their wishes in regard to this matter.

Mesopotamia Campaign

The question I wish to touch upon is Mesopotamia. I think we have all seen the accounts in the paper of the sad failure of the hospital arrangements in Mesopotamia, and I am sure the whole country must have received the announcement made by the President of the Local Government Board the other day of the fact that certain hospital units, including 100 doctors and 100 hospital orderlies, had been sent to Mesopotamia with the greatest pleasure and relief, in fact it was a welcome announcement to everybody concerned. I know it is the case that the conduct and direction of the Mesopotamian campaign was only lately taken over by the War Office, and I remember that the Under-Secretary for War expressly and specially disclaimed any responsibility in regard to the campaign in Mesopotamia for anything that happened before the War Office took charge. I think, however, that the Under-Secretary for War will acknowledge that either the War Office should have taken over charge of this campaign sooner or else they should have kept the Government of India up to the mark. So long as the Mesopotamian expedition was limited to the occupation of Basra I think we can all say that everything went fairly well, except that even then the number of men sent out by the Government of India was not sufficient for the work they had to do, and it was only the magnificent gallantry of the officers and men concerned that saved the day. The Prime Minister was certainly right in bearing testimony to the brilliant manner in which the early operations of the Mesopotamian campaign were carried out.

We must remember that subsequent to those operations great hardship and suffering was imposed upon all the troops by the operations in the swamps of the Lower Tigris and the Lower Euphrates, and up the Karun River, to protect our oil supplies, when the great heat of the summer imposed a strain upon the troops which was very hard to bear, and when the subsequent advance up the river came we must all recognise that the Viceroy and the Commander-in-Chief in India entirely failed to meet the situation. Both in regard to men, munitions, and transports they all fell short of the requirements of the campaign. When speaking in this House on the 11th November last I urged three things: more men, more munitions, and more officers for Mesopotamia. As the House will realise, Mesopotamia is a field specially suited to the Indian soldiers. It is close to India, and the climate is more suitable for the Indians than for the British soldiers, and the Government of India had a free hand to send as many Indian soldiers as they liked. In England not only did we raise a second line for our Territorial battalions, but we also raised a third line. What was done in India in this respect? No attempt was made at any national effort to increase the Indian Army. I urged in November last that some well-known Indian gentlemen should be nominated to act as directors of recruiting as Lord Derby had done in this country. I urged that many more men should be enlisted in India, and that each district should be called upon to form a local Indian recruiting committee, exactly as recruiting committees have been formed in every town and municipality in England, for the purpose of raising recruits for their respective Indian regiments. I know that all these regiments in India have a regular centre, but the one great fault is that Indian regiments have been too much de-localised, with the result that in India they have not the same pride in their own local regiments connected with particular districts as they have in this country.

There is nothing about the recruiting of Indian troops in this Bill, and the hon. Member must confine his remarks to the work of the European troops in Mesopotamia.

I would like to ask if the medical establishment in connection with the Mesopotamian force is borne on the Indian Vote or the Army Vote. If it is borne on the Army Vote, is it not in order to discuss it on this occasion?

Is it not possible to discuss this question on the ground that this is a joint campaign carried on by Indian and English troops?

If the hon. and gallant Member confines himself to the Mesopotamian campaign he is quite in order, but if he goes on to point out that certain administrative changes should be made in India in the matter of recruiting for Indian regiments, that seems to me to be quite outside this Bill.

I will try my best to obey your ruling. I was dealing with the question of the action of the Indian Government, and I should like to point out, as far as recruiting is concerned, that while we in England are making great efforts, and raising 4,000,000 recruits out of a population of 40,000,000, which is at the rate of one man in every ten, in India they have not raised one man in every thousand, and that is a point we ought to bear in mind in order to see how sadly the Government of India have failed to rise to the occasion so far as raising the requisite number of men is concerned. I am not going to go into the question of the raising of Indian troops. I wish to deal with the conduct of the Mesopotamia cam- paign. May I touch for a moment on the question of munitions? In November last I urged—

There is nothing about munitions coming from India in this Bill. If the hon. Member will look at the Bill, he will see what it deals with.

I wish to call attention to the sad shortage in the supply of munitions in the campaign, and to ascertain how it was that the Officer Commanding-in-Chief in India failed to meet the requirements. I hope that I shall not be out of order in doing that. The question is raised in the Indian papers, and I see in one paper it was reported that only one assistant railway engineer and one assistant locomotive superintendent had been appointed for this work in India for which we here have appointed a special Minister of Munitions. Why could we not have had a Lloyd George in India?

The hon. Gentleman is dealing with matters of Indian administration. He knows quite well that we do not in this House vote. Supply for Indian administration. These matters are certainly not included in this Bill, and we cannot deal with them.

I am sorry. Apparently, under your ruling, any failure on the part of the Indian Government to supply proper munitions for the Mesopotamia Forces must not now be criticised.

Not on this occasion. The hon. Gentleman must select the proper occasion.

I am sorry, and as there is no Indian Budget I am afraid that occasion will not arise this year. I should like to bear testimony to the magnificent manner in which both the British and Indian troops in Mesopotamia, provided with nothing but their bayonets, have had to advance and take trenches over the open ground, devoid of all cover, in face of most murderous fire of the highest explosive shells from big and little guns on the part of Turkish troops under the direction of German officers, and they have been absolutely unable to reply with the same weapons. We hear of the great effect of the high explosive shells of the Turkish guns, but we hear nothing of the effect of our high explosive shells; we hear of the Turks bombing our troops, but we hear nothing of our troops bombing Turkish trenches; we hear of the Turkish machine guns knocking our machine guns out of action, but we hear nothing of our machine guns knocking Turkish guns out of action. All this seems to show that our munitions have been sadly short, and that nothing but the magnificent bravery of our men has carried them as far as they have gone at present. The War Office are now sending out reinforcements, but we have got to remember that to-day is the one hundred and fifth day of the siege of Kut-el-Amara. Why were not those reinforcements sent out before General Townshend's Division ever advanced so far? We can all realise the tremendous difficulty there is in providing the necessary river transports to take a large force up the River Tigris, but why were those transports not provided in time? If the right hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary of State for War could tell us how the campaign is progressing at the present moment, I am sure that it would be most welcome. The matter is causing great anxiety in the country generally, and any news that can be given will certainly be most welcome. Personally, I long and look forward to seeing Bagdad occupied by our troops in a very short time. Personally, I look upon Mesopotamia as the prize for which the Indian Army, alongside the British Army, is fighting, and I hope to see a Mesopotamia in the future with its ancient irrigation works and canals all in working order under the British Government, and I hope to see the banks along its rivers populated and cultivated by flourishing Indian colonies transplanted from the banks of the Indus. No European country could possibly colonise Mesopotamia. The climate forbids it. I trust Mesopotamia will be the special prize of the Indian soldiers, and I hope the Under-Secretary will be able to give us some hope that there is every intention of giving Mesopotamia to the Indian soldiers.

I heard with great pleasure and with profound agreement the tribute which my hon. and gallant Friend paid to the bravery and endurance of our troops, Indian and British, in Mesopotamia. I do not think any of the phrases which he used, or any of us might use, could be too strong to express our admiration of what they have done or what they have endured in the very arduous campaign in which they have been engaged, and if my hon. and gallant friend had only desired to express the interest which all of us feel in watching their operations and the earnest desire which we have for their success, why then we should have been entirely unanimous and there would have been no need for me to say another word, but my hon. and gallant Friend thought it right, and I have certainly no ground of complaint, to criticise the action of the Government of India in regard to the conduct of the campaign. It is very difficult for me to deal with that portion of my hon. and gallant Friend's speech, for he had no sooner stated a proposition which he proposed to prove than you pointed out to him that this was not an occasion on which he could enter into that matter. I am therefore left confronted with a series of statements that the action of the Government of India was wrong in this respect or in that; statements in support of which my hon. and gallant Friend could not offer any evidence, and which, I presume, I should be equally out of order in bringing evidence to refute. I would content myself, therefore, with saying this much as regards the observations which my hon. and gallant Friend did make, that I think the contrast which he drew between the military policy pursued in India and the military policy pursued here is one which he himself, on further consideration, would feel is fallacious. For instance, even here, apart from any other circumstances, the number of troops that we can raise is conditioned by the rate at which we can train officers to command them, and that is true with tenfold force of the Indian Army. The British officer of the Indian Army is doubly a specialist. He is a specialist as a soldier, and he is a specialist as an Indian soldier, conversant with the Indian vernaculars, or some of them, and accustomed to deal with Indian troops. You cannot improvise officers of that kind even to the same extent that officers can be improvised for the New Armies here.

Neither my hon. and gallant Friend nor I can go further, but I could not leave so much as he was allowed to say without some reference to the difference in the conditions prevailing between India and England. My hon. and gallant Friend admitted that the War Office had not had responsibility for the conduct of this campaign until comparatively recently, but he reproached my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for War with not having kept the Government of India up to the mark in its conduct of it in its earlier stages. I will not argue at this moment whether the Government of India, for which I am responsible, did or did not do its duty, but I venture to say that while we were responsible it is we who must be held to account, and it really would not contribute to the efficient conduct of that campaign that one set of people should be responsible and that another set should be interfering with their responsibility, while having no responsibility themselves. When the campaign began it was comparatively a small operation within the resources of the Indian Government. It has grown until it has exceeded those resources, and I am heartily glad that the ultimate control is now exercised by the Imperial General Staff at home, instead of by the Secretary of State for India, by the Imperial General Staff acting, as the Secretary of State previously did, through the Governor of India, the military authorities there, and the General Officer Commanding on the spot. I think that transfer has already proved itself advantageous, and I anticipate that in the further development of affairs it will still more commend itself to all who are concerned.

My hon. and gallant Friend made a brief reference to deficiencies in the supplies of the troops in Mesopotamia, and to the inadequacy, in his opinion, of the forces with which the advance to Ctesiphon was undertaken. I do not think it is possible for me or for anyone to enter into a full explanation to the House of all the circumstances connected with the advance, stating what the forces were, the reinforcements which were ordered, the times at which they were ordered, or the dates on which they arrived. Those are matters which cannot be discussed while the campaign is proceeding, but I want to remove one misapprehension which I think my hon. and gallant Friend entertains, if I rightly understood his observations. He is mistaken if he supposes that an advance was ordered in defiance of military opinion as to the sufficiency of the resources with which it was undertaken. On the contrary, all the military authorities, the General Officer Commanding in Mesopotamia, the military authorities in India, and the military authorities at home, concurred in the orders for the advance with the troops which were then at the disposal of the General Officer Commanding.

The advance towards Bagdad. My hon. and gallant Friend seemed to think that there had been a great shortage in supplies of all kinds. I am afraid I have to admit that in my opinion there has been a lamentable breakdown of the hospital arrangements. I will not seek to palliate some of the things which I have learned have taken place, but I would beg the House to remember that this campaign has been carried on under circumstances of very great difficulty. I am not in a position absolutely to vouch for its accuracy, but according to the latest information that I have there has been an abundance of hospital supplies of all kinds at Basra at all times, but I think without doubt there has been a grave and I am inclined to think an inexcusable, shortage of necessary medical supplies above Basra. That is in large part due, I do not doubt, to the enormous difficulties of river traffic. My hon. and gallant Friend said there had been a shortage of transport. There has-been a shortage for such forces as are now being employed. Why, asks my hon. and gallant Friend, was not sufficient transport provided? If he had had the responsibility he would know one cannot gather transport for that purpose with ease. It is only particular types of river-craft that are suitable for the purpose. They have to be of extraordinary shallow draught. We have searched this country; we have had recourse to Egypt; we have gone to other countries to secure wherever we could, or to ascertain if we could secure, any boats of a character suitable-for these rivers. We have had misfortunes with regard to some of the transports. Some have been destroyed en route, or lost by perils of the sea en route.

Undoubtedly the shortage of river transport accounts for a great deal of what has happened. But I do not think it accounts for all, and neither the Government at home nor the Government in India are satisfied with the state of things which has prevailed. It has already been announced to the House by my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board (Mr. Long), speaking some little time ago, when I was unable to be present, that the Government of India have appointed a distinguished general— General Bingly—and a distinguished Civil servant—Sir William Vincent—to proceed to Mesopotamia and investigate the medical arrangements there. Of course, we do not desire that any inquiry into the laches of the past should interfere with the work which has now to be done and which it is urgent should be done. But, at the same time, it is necessary we should be informed as to the facts, and that we should be in a position to weigh and apportion responsibility. These gentlemen began their inquiry in Bombay, where they were able to see officers invalided from the front, and they have transmitted to this country a series of questions which they desire to have addressed to certain officers now here, also invalided from Mesopotamia. They have already proceeded to Mesopotamia to carry their inquiries further on the spot. I hope that these measures and the, attention which has already been given to them by communications from home and from the Government of India have already worked an improvement and will prevent a repetition of these things of which complaint has been made.

The House would like to know that, in regard to the last action in which our droops were engaged, I have here a telegram from the General Officer Commanding to the Chief of the Imperial General Staff, in which he reports that General Aylmer stated, after the action, that he was extremely satisfied with the arrangements made for the wounded in the field and on their arrival down river. They arrived there safely on the evenings of 9th and 10th March. The telegram then goes on to say that a large number had already been sent down stream and the rest were following, and he concluded "all is progressing favourably." I am afraid my statement is getting rather lengthy, and it is not in my power to make it very definite. But I know the grave anxiety which is felt by the country on this matter. I can assure hon. Members that their anxiety is not greater than my own. I have been anxious to say whatever I could to explain to hon. Members the position, and to relieve their minds as to what is now being done.

My hon. and gallant Friend added some criticisms as to the general shortage of military stores. He said we read that this or that is in possession of the Turks, but we do not read of its being in the possession of our own troops. I do not know where he reads all these things. But I hope and believe his anxiety as to the shortage of military equipment is ill-founded. It is quite true that the communiqués which our commanders send are not verbose and that the communications which we issue to the Press are even not very jejeune. But neither my hon. and gallant Friend nor anybody else would wish us to launch out into the realms of romance such as you will find in the German and Turkish wireless from day to day; nor would they wish us to give details of equipment or of supplies which, while they might gratify the curiosity of people here, would be yet more useful to the enemy. I feel sure the best was done for the equipment of this force when the ultimate responsibility was transferred to this country, when the responsibility which led up to a point had been exercised by the India Office was transferred to the General Staff, which is responsible for the whole military operations in which we are engaged, and which alone is in a position to weigh the relative requirements of the different theatres of war and to apportion the resources of the country among them. I believe that that change has already worked an improvement and will work further improvements. Meanwhile, I trust my hon. and gallant Friends will neither hold the War Office responsible for things which happened before they assumed control nor prejudge the result of that control which they have now undertaken.

I think everybody who has listened to the right hon. Gentleman must be deeply grateful to him for the statement which he has made to the House. It is a statement which the House has long been wanting. He truly said it was impossible for him to go into details in the matter. Yet I think he has put before us a considerable statement of fact for which we are deeply grateful. We realise that, he being responsible as head of the India Office, his anxiety in the matter must be much greater than that of any of us who have listened to him on this occasion. If I may say so, I entirely agree with his statement that the transfer of the conduct of operations to the War Office was wise and judicious, and the only comment I would make on that statement is that the transference to the War Office, as it seems to me, must be remembered in relation to the power which the War Office has of sending reinforcements either from Salonika or Egypt, a power which the India Office could not use, and in view of which the transfer from the India Office to the War Office alone, if that be the only consideration, is justified.

The right hon. Gentleman went on to say that the military authorities both at home and in India had agreed to the advance in Mesopotamia. I confess I have heard that statement with some regret, because I had rather hoped that the local commander on the spot had somewhat exceeded his instructions, and had taken upon himself the responsibility of engaging vastly superior Turkish forces in disobedience or in excess of the orders of the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, and that upon his head the whole responsibility was cast for what has turned out to be, I will not say a disastrous affair, but, at all events, an unsuccessful affair. The right hon. Gentleman tells us that all military authorities were consulted and they all agreed that this advance upon Bagdad was wise and prudent. I confess it puzzles me, with some little local knowledge, not very much, of the conditions there. But knowing the size of Bagdad and the extraordinary intricacies of that great city, I am surprised that any such concurrence should have been obtained from the military authorities for the advance. Who would have dreamed of taking a place like Bagdad with a force of 20,000 men? It seemed to me almost military insanity. I speak with great respect in view of the opinions which have been expressed and which the right hon. Gentleman stated were given to him by the military officers, remembering, too, that the criticisms which I offer are only based upon partial information.

The right hon. Gentleman went on to speak of the regrettable breakdown of the medical arrangements. I think the whole House will be very sorry to hear the very grave confession, if I may say so, of the right hon. Gentleman. At the present time, when medical science is so advanced, the resources of the military authorities in this country and in India ought to have been available for the supply to a force of the size of that commanded by General Lace. That they ought to have been adequate to their supply is, I think, an axiom which really cannot be questioned. One would have imagined the resources of the Indian Army alone would have been adequate to find all the medical materials required for the comparatively small force sent to Mesopotamia.

I think the House has heard with the greatest possible satisfaction of the clean breast which the right hon. Gentleman has made as to the unsatisfactory state of things there. He has promised an inquiry which shall be full and which, I understand, shall place the responsibility for the breakdown on the shoulders which should bear the responsibility for it. It is no less than ought to have been demanded by this House and no less than should have been conceded by the right hon. Gentleman, but the fact that it is given in advance of a request by this House is greatly to his credit and that of the Department of which he is the head. He has used a very strong word in connection with this matter. He said it was "inexcusable." I think we shall all be sorry not that he used the word, but that he should have had occasion to use it. If it really can be brought home either to one man or to any set of officials that men have perished while serving the country from want of care and want of foresight and judgment—if that can be brought home to any individual, or set of individuals, then the severest pains and penalties of every sort and descriptions should be visited upon those officials.

If it can be shown, that it is necessary, the same sort of inquiry should be held in that case. At any rate, we have one Minister who has been proved wise enough to order an inquiry.

5.0 P.M.

Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to intervene. I spoke without notes, and have not therefore in mind the exact words I used. I think I ought to say it is my feeling and my belief, on my present information, there were inexcusable deficiencies in the arrangements for the treatment of the Wounded. But I beg the House to keep an. open mind until we really do know the facts. I do not profess to know them. I have received private letters, one from here and another from there, and if the writer's name is given to me it is given under the seal of secrecy and I am not authorised to use it. The House and the right hon. Gentleman know what difficulties there are in getting to the bottom of the facts in these circumstances. I am profoundly dissatisfied with the information which has reached me, but I do not know the truth, and I do not myself wish to be held to have uttered any judgment on anybody until such time as I do know the facts. I beg the House to keep an open mind on the subject. I have one further observation to make. These two gentlemen were appointed not by me, but by the Government of India—I think by the Commander-in-Chief—to proceed on the inquiry. Perhaps it might interest the House to know, if I may be permitted to add to what I said just now, that they had intended to launch that inquiry at an earlier date, and that the Commander-in-Chief had actually selected Lord Chelmsford as one of the gentlemen who should proceed to Mesopotamia for the inquiry when the telegram from home offering him the Viceroyalty reached him, and that I prevented his proceeding on the other mission. But for that the inquiry, which is now being conducted by Sir William Vincent and General Bingly, would have started some weeks earlier, and Lord Chelmsford would have been one of those making the inquiry.

I laid great stress on the "if." I said that if blame could be brought home, all the pains and penalties that could be inflicted for their laches should be inflicted. I agree that to judge a case of this gravity now would be impossible, and would be most unfair both to the persons making the inquiry and also to those who are the subject of it. I have only one further observation to make, and that is this: The right hon. Gentleman said that the communiqués which were made by other countries went into the realms of romance. Unless I am strangely and gravely misinformed, the last Turkish communiqué which was published by wireless went much less into the realm of romance than the last communiqué which was published by the India Office. The numbers of the wounded which were stated to have been incurred by the British Force were in the terms of the Turkish communiqué, I am afraid, very much nearer the truth than any statement which has yet been made in the English Press. That is the information I have. I have therefore good reason to think that the information is true. In pursuance of a theme which I raised the other day I would say I wish it were possible in a matter of this sort—and in a matter so grave as this is—that more information might have been given to the House and the country. I am quite sure that nothing is gained by withholding knowledge of information from this House and the country which is known to the enemy.

Withhold any knowledge you like which may be of value to the enemy and which they are unable to obtain from other sources, but give to this House—it has not yet been given either in connection with this campaign or any other campaign that is being waged—all the information which is at the disposal of the enemy from their own sources.

The numbers of our casualties are not at the disposal of the enemy unless we place them so. The right hon. Gentleman is mistaken in supposing that.

All I can say is that in certain instances the enemy has made an extremely good guess on more occasions than have been admitted by the War Office. That seems to be a useless concealment of information. I will not dwell upon other points because I only rose to say that in my judgment the right hon. Gentleman has made a most frank, fair and proper statement to the House, which I, as a Member of this House, deeply appreciate.

Naval and Military Air Service

I would ask the indulgence of the House in once more addressing it since I had the honour of becoming a Member. I should like to explain that I did not come to this House to gain a reputation as a debater. I came here with a very definite purpose. I would ask the House to extend its attention and its leniency in listening to me so that I may endeavour to place what I have to say in this connection at its disposal. So far as our Air Services are concerned time is the essence of the contract. Every day that we delay going into this matter is a day lost, and every day that we lose is two on account to Germany. This Government has been wrong in regard to the air menace for eight years. We have been at war for eighteen months, and. our present position in the air is one that reflects credit neither on our Government nor on those officers whose duty it has been to prepare, to look forward, and to endeavour to gain for this country supremacy in the air. This Government was wrong eight years ago. It was warned by many men, by many Germans, I believe by many hon. Members of this House, eight years ago, and by myself in what I believe was the first journal ever published in the world in connection with flying, called "Aviation," which I published and edited. With the indulgence of the House, I should like to quote from it a short article on the question of our supremacy in the air. In April, 1909, in an editorial called "The Admiralty of the Air," I said: war. We have had another Committee appointed. I believe it is commonly known as the Derby Committee. It was appointed in the first instance, I understand, to deal essentially with the construction of aeroplanes for the Naval and Military Services. While the Army and the Navy are quarreling as to who shall possess this power, there is every danger of the little air child failing to develop in the way that it must develop if we are to use it to its full value in this War. Somewhat of a Chinese principle has been adopted. The Army has bound one of its feet, and the Navy has bound the other foot, until it will never be able to walk by itself unless some definite change in the existing policy is adopted.

I should like to make one or two remarks in regard to this Committee which has been appointed, but I will refrain, as I trust I shall always be able to refrain; from striking any note of personal criticism in this House. Lord Derby is a man of high and great public reputation. When the Government found themselves absolutely confronted with an outraged public and a discontented service, they were obliged to act. What more simple than to seize on the name of a Noble Lord who had, through his efforts in other matters, inspired in this country a certain confidence and throw him to the people as a bone for the dogs—throw him to the people and say, "Here is Lord Derby; now everything will be well in this the best and the most wonderful of worlds"? I would like to ask what qualifications that Noble Lord has for deciding the destinies of our Air Service, and what that Noble Lord can do when sitting at the head of a table with a multitude of councillors counselling him upon a subject of which he knows, I regret to say, nothing? To what decisions can he come? On the one hand a man will say, "Build, build, build." On the other hand another man will say, "Stay your hand; we have too many machines." One of them might say that there were fifty machines at one station—Yarmouth, if I may mention it—doing nothing. Another councillor says, "We have forty machines at Redcar doing nothing," and another, "We have forty machines at Eastchurch doing nothing." Another may say, "Where are the 130 machines which constitute the Grand Air Fleet, and where are the 130 pilots?" Councillors on one side that the procedure adopted by this House and, if necessary, showing Lord Derby the machines and the pilots, while, on the other hand, there will be "little airities," who are anxious to see no development take place, who will advise the other way. What is the Noble Lord to do? He has for his assistants some hon. and gallant Gentlemen. He has also for his assistants Lord Montagu and other Noble Lords and a very able Lord who, quite recently in the House of Lords, stood up for the Air Service and criticised the Government—as it does the Government good to be criticised. He pointed out the error of their ways in no measured terms, and what is the result? Within twenty-four hours he is roped in and is told to sit on the Committee. Then he has to confess, in another twenty-four hours, that he would like to say a number of things, not only in his interest, not in the interests of the Government, but, what is far greater, in the interests of his country, but unfortunately his lips are sealed. Then we have a gallant officer of the General Staff on this Committee. His peculiar knowledge of aeronautics is quite unknown to me. It may be very great, but I have been associated with aviation since 1904, and I have never heard his name in that connection. Then we have Admiral Vaughan Lee, an able and gallant officer, who has devoted the whole of his life to the noble profession of the sea, where, I believe, he has gained a very high reputation. But so surely as he is well advised and is capable as a naval officer, so surely is he ignorant as a babe in matters of aeronautics. He is the naval officer that this country is looking to to solve the problem of how we shall beat our enemies in the air. I fear that his name will be coupled with the names of other officers who have been sacrificed on the altar of the Government's ineptitude. Then there is General Henderson, who is also on the Committee. I have never had the pleasure of meeting General Henderson. I know he is a very able, officer, but so far as the Air Services are concerned I have heard him referred to as the De Rougemont of the Air Service. "We then have Commodore Suitor. Commodore Suitor is the father of the Naval Air Service, and he, together with Squadron-Commander Briggs—I say with a full sense of responsibility—represent the expert opinion on that Committee.

Under these circumstances it might be as well for our Government to give serious consideration to the advisability of adopting the Minority Report of that Committee. Anyhow, I would suggest that whatever efforts this Committee makes, it is likely to be reactionary, and I think be would be as well, in view of the fact that both myself and several other men who I know are most anxious, most perturbed and most disturbed at our present policy of masterly inactivity in the air and our present hopeless muddle, for the Government to state exactly what are the powers and duties and the responsibility of this Committee. When does it meet? I understand that in the last six weeks it has met on six occasions. That means to say that, out of six weeks, for over five weeks a policy either of pondering or of waiting to see has been adopted. Any Board that is appointed for dealing with this very pressing question of the air should sit not once in six days, but every day, and, if necessary, all day, until some solution is found for our third-class position as an air Power. I consider that our national pride has suffered a blow which it will take us many years and much labour to recover from. We who have prided ourselves, and justly, as a great nation, seek protection from our enemies in the air in darkness and impotence and walk about the streets like a lot of huddled fools when all that is necessary is for the Government to grasp this nettle, not to fear and funk and twist and turn in every direction to avoid a task which either they must accomplish or must make way for some other body of men to accomplish.

I state without fear of contradiction from any man who has studied this question that our very national existence in the next twenty years will lie in the ocean of the air. I do not wish to romance, but within the next five or ten years we shall live to see the sky darkened by aeroplanes. The question of a country—either our country or France or Germany or Russia—owning 500 aeroplanes will be looked upon as a humorous event of the past. Within the next ten years some country in this world will own a hundred thousand or two hundred thousand aeroplanes. We are now producing aeroplanes under the great financial stress of war which are costing us from £600 upward. In the course of the next few years, when the market has readjusted itself, these small scouting aeroplanes, the cost of which is now about £600 or £700, will be produced for about £100 or £200. That means that any nation at a very small expense, even a little insignificant nation that could not afford to buy a battleship, will be able to terrify the world with these machines carrying 500 lbs. of explosives, and which will be able to get from one place to another—say, about 100 miles—in fifty or sixty minutes. What will be the striking power of any nation, no matter how small, which possesses such a terrifying arm? It means that if at some future date our relations with some other country, perhaps 100 or 200 miles away, became strained at six o'clock in the evening, it is quite feasible that if those relations were not attended to very rapidly, before six o'clock in the morning half our cities would be laid waste. When you think that one airship can come over to this country and cause the excitement and the damage that one aeroplane, or airship if you like, can cause, can hold up all the traffic, and disorganise the entire transport of this country, when everyone is pannicking and seeking cellars—

I will withdraw that remark. I will say that defiance without defence is as disgraceful for this country as it is for us to seek the cellars. I would suggest that if a soldier has a life which is of value to his country—and providing he cannot employ that life to strike or to kill a man or a machine which is endangering the life of his countrymen—he will be better employed in a cellar than in laughing in the open streets, because at least he would be saving for some future occasion a life which is of value to his countrymen. But I do not like to dwell on that subject. I never walk about the streets in darkness at night without a certain feeling that our country is suffering at the hands of these Germans an insult which will take a lot of wiping out. I have stated that it is not my intention to go into facts and figures and try to wash the dirty linen of the Air Service on the floor of this House, but, if there is no other way, if this Government is going to say reforms are taking place when only alterations are taking place, if the only way to impress upon this Government the great importance of this question is to shame and shock this House, I shall not hesitate to speak. I shall give them facts and figures which will do much to shock them and will do a great deal, I regret to say, to shame this House. I am told we have no pilots. Yet we have about 130 officers holding His Majesty's Commission in the Royal Navy and the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, who have been trained at great public expense, who are doing second-class clerical work in the Air Department. We have thirty first-class pilots quill-driving instead of machine-driving. There is something very rotten in the Service which provides for that sort of abuse. The air pilot is an expensive man to train, but once he is trained he should be used as an air pilot, and not as a Civil clerk. I would suggest that, while we are discussing this question here, our Air Services are in a condition of suspended animation pending the decision of this-House—pending a decision which it seems-very difficult for our Government to arrive at. I would suggest that while this condition of suspended animation is taking place in our Air Services, the only thing the Germans are waiting for is, not decisions, but atmospheric conditions to strike yet another—possibly appalling—blow at us.

I have been asked to suggest a possible solution for the present condition of things. I have in my hand a very brief synopsis of a solution of the existing chaos, muddle, and inefficiency which reigns in our Air Service I would briefly refer to one method which at least could be adopted, to harness the material we have, to let the work which is now in progress be carried on, and yet to prepare for the production of such an air fleet as would within the next six or twelve months gain for us an ascendancy which I am sure once we had succeeded in winning no Government would permit us to lose.

I would suggest that there are four ways out of our present muddle. The first is the amalgamation of the Royal Naval Air Service and the Royal Flying Corps under the control of a board selected from the heads of these Services. The second is the development of these two Services on independent lines under one political chief. The third is a conjunction of the productive and financial department of these Services, which would leave the operative sides independent. The fourth is the creation of a new force responsible for the production of all aircraft material and for all services which do not form an integral part of naval or military operations. I would like to deal with these suggestions in a little greater detail. I will take the amalgamation of the Royal Naval Air Service and the Royal Flying Corps. This at first sight seems the simplest and most practical course, and were it not for the human element it would present the line of least resistance. Unfortunately, however, there is, and always has been, great professional jealousy between the Army and the Navy, and this jealousy has been intensified in the Royal Flying Corps and the Royal Naval Air Service through the overlapping of their spheres of operation. Any controlling board selected from these Services would be subject to incessant intrigue, while a Board chosen from the outside, with no knowledge of the air, would be utterly powerless, owing to its ignorance. One of the prime causes of the ineffectiveness of the Royal Naval Air Service is to be found in its divided control, whereby the air stations are placed under various local senior naval officers. No arrangement which left this undisturbed could be tolerated. I hold the method by which the air stations are controlled by the senior naval officers of the district responsible for the incidents of Margate and Ramsgate. It means that it would take longer to get from the observer of the enemy aircraft to the pilot or commanding officer in charge of the squadron, who would be responsible for keeping the enemy aircraft back, than it does for the enemy to get from the enemy base to this country. It is hardly necessary to point out that the Flying Services started in an amalgamated form. Originally there was only one Flying Service, the Naval and Army branch, but by slight degrees they have gradually drifted apart, until they are one service no longer.

I come now to the point of the independent development of the Air Service under one political chief. This might be a very effective eye-wash, if you could find a politician of note who would be foolish enough to take on such a post. It would, however, leave all the existing abuses without any effective remedy, because such a chief would be entirely at the mercy of the controlling influences that are responsible for the present muddle, and the people who advised him one way or the other would confuse him so much that he would find it even more difficult than the Government does to arrive at a decision. As to the conjunction of the productive and financial departments, this has already been attempted in the formation of the Derby Committee, but the progress, so far, has not been encouraging. The Departments which retain executive control are not likely to assent to the transfer of their administrative powers to a third party, or if they gave a nominal consent, are not likely to give that whole-hearted co-operation and support which alone can render that assent of practical value. In any case the present failure is not so much on the side of production as on the side of operation. No improvement in production, however great, can possibly makeup for our inefficiency in combative initiative. Now we come to the last point, the question of the creation of a new force. I would like to suggest that the supremacy of the air lies ready to any Government which has sufficient initiative to seize it. The thing will never be done under Government Departments already overburdened with other duties, which must naturally to them be of greater importance. The energy, vigour, and initiative required can only be found in the creation of a new, free force, free from the inertia of the Royal Naval Air Service as regards operations, or from the blunders of the Royal Flying Corps as regards construction. I do not intend to deal with the colossal blunders of the Royal Flying Corps, but I may refer briefly to the hundreds—nay, thousands—of machines which they have ordered and which have been referred to by our pilots at the front as "Fokker fodder." Everyone of our pilots knows when he steps into them that if he gets back it will be more by luck and by his skill than by any mechanical assistance he will get from the people who provide him with the machines. I do not want to touch a dramatic note this afternoon, but if I did I would suggest that quite a number of our gallant officers in the Royal Flying Corps have been rather murdered! than killed.

I should be most charmed to do so, but I prefer to finish this point. The changes in the administration of the Royal Naval Air Service brought about m July last were on the question that the Royal Naval Air Service was not sufficiently naval, and these changes were, in effect, an attempt to reduce the Royal Naval Air Service to its purely naval functions. Assuming this idea to be sound, it may be shown that only a portion of the existing Royal Naval Air Service material and personnel is needed for such functions, and from the small portion of the remainder it is quite feasible to provide the nucleus of a new Imperial Air Service. I would suggest that the duties of a naval aeroplane are limited to scouting, driving off enemy scouts, spotting for shots, and defending the Fleet from aerial attack. If our Grand Fleet possessed one machine which was capable of landing on a battleship, which was capable of helping that Grand Fleet further than the usual seaplane carrier, which has not been found a great success; if we possessed one aeroplane out of all the thousands of aeroplanes, both delivered and on order, for the Royal Naval Air Service; if we had one officer out of the many hundreds of naval officers and pilots in the Royal Naval Air Service; if we had one mechanic out of the 10,000 or 12,000 mechanics at the disposal of the Royal Naval Air Service, who were really of material assistance to our Grand Fleet, I would say that perhaps there was some justification for this system. I am going to suggest that the Royal Naval Air Service is at the present moment no use whatsoever to our Grand Fleet. I think that it is a tragedy that such should be the case. I think it is a tragedy that while the German fleet has fifty eyes—nay, one hundred eyes—our Fleet is blind. Our Fleet possesses no rigid airship to help it. It possesses no machine which, in ordinary or slightly extraordinary weather conditions, can assist it in any way whatsoever. Without letting one's imagination run very wild, I would suggest that if the German Grand Fleet, which has many eyes, engages the British Grand Fleet, which is blind, our Fleet will be operating under conditions which are not favourable to a very great and very serious occasion.

I suggest that immediate steps should be taken to ascertain exactly what provisions our Grand Fleet demand. I would suggest that someone should be made responsible to inquire what facilities they possess at the present time, either for spotting or preventing our enemy airships from spotting either their position or their movements. I consider, so far as the present moment is concerned, one of the gravest and most important problems to be solved is to see that our Fleet is at least, as far as observation goes, on equal terms with that of the enemy, if and when it may or does come out. So far as the duties of the Royal Flying Corps are concerned, I think its legitimate functions are limited to scouting, to attacking certain enemy bases only so far as they supply the immediate Army in the field, to spotting gun shots, and general observation. But quite outside that there are legitimate functions for an Air Service. There are legitimate functions for a great Air Service. There is no reason why every Zeppelin in Germany should not be blown up within the next six months: no reason whatsoever. If only we could give these men who understand the problem and have the imagination to deal with it a free hand, I am satisfied that we shall regain supremacy in the air, but so long as we are content to appoint Committees with very small powers, so long as we are content to allow these Committees to meet once a week, as if this country was at peace, instead of at war, so long as we take no definite action, I am afraid we shall remain as we are at the mercy of our enemies in the air. I would ask that if it is to be a subject of debate that it shall be made a subject of a very early Debate. It seems a pity that such a Debate cannot take place. If the Government decide to appoint a Board and not a Committee, a Board with administrative power, a Board with the power if necessary to dictate, on that Board there could be represented all and every side of the great air problem. If that Board could be made responsible to a Minister of this House, it would be well, but I would not suggest the appointment of an Air Minister, because I am afraid that would be another political concession. I am afraid such an Air Minister would get round him men representing other interests, and it would be very difficult. He would be advised by everybody in the House and in the club, and most probably the next morning after his appointment the postbag would contain 1,000 letters for every one letter he had before. I am afraid he would be rather overwhelmed with the duties he had undertaken. I might suggest that this Board should be directly responsible to the present First Lord of the Admiralty in the capacity of Air Minister, apart from his present position. I understand the First Lord is responsible in this House for the air, and I do not see any reason why he should not continue to enjoy that distinction. I think if one Board were responsible to him, and that Board were given great powers, we should find that this very vital question if not solved, at any rate it would be attacked in a manly and efficient manner.

So far as that Board is concerned, I would suggest that it be directly responsible for the general policy of the Air Service, for the appointment of all officers of the rank of wing commanders and above, for the promotion and removal of all officers, for civil appointments and promotions, and the allocation of the honours of war. On that Board there would be certain directors, such as the directors of operations, and personnel. In fact, it might assume very much the existing shape of the Board of Admiralty, but let it be a Board of Air. It would be well if that Board could be brought into existence at once, and that by its exertions the resources of the country could be really tapped, instead of having the matter, as is at present the case, simply toyed with. When we hear that eleven or twelve firms have definitely told the authorities that unless they are given some aeroplanes to build they will have to go out of the business; when we hear of fifty or 100 firms constantly approaching the Admiralty or the War Office for the privilege of being put on their list for aeroplanes; when we hear, as we did quite recently, that twenty-nine aeroplanes, I think, were discovered somewhere in the North, brand new aeroplanes, only unfortunately they were discovered so late that they were obsolete when found; when we hear of all this muddle, where are we to turn? When we turn to one, he turns to someone else, and he turns it on to someone else. We want the name of one man to whom the country can turn for solving this problem. We want one man for the defence of this country in the air, whose sole duty it would be to provide adequate defence until such time as our offensive is so strong and so good that the defensive policy will be unnecessary. It is because I believe this so sincerely, and because of the material which I have at my disposal to place before any man or any committee who has authority to deal with the matter, that I have the audacity to commend these proposals to the Gentlemen on the Front Bench, who have so dearly at heart the welfare of our country.

The hon. Member for Hertfordshire, who has just sat down, has used the language which he employed in relation to the Air Service of this country in order to impress upon His Majesty's Government the importance of this question. The hon. Member, who did me the honour to listen to the few remarks which I made the other day on this subject, should know that we require no such language as he has used to make us realise the great importance of this matter. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford (Mr. Joynson-Hicks), who has always taken a great interest in this subject, is aware that the Government are thoroughly alive to the great importance of providing a sufficient air service for the protection of our shores, and for the attack of the enemy. The hon. Member (Mr. Billing) indulged himself in references now to prove that he had given serious warning to the Prime Minister eight years ago. I can only thank the hon. Gentleman for having given the Government such serious warning, because the Government have fully arisen to the occasion of those warnings as he will see when I tell him that for the first eight or ten months of the War on the front in Flanders the Germans hardly ever dared to come over the British lines at all, showing how greatly superior we were in men and material and skill to our enemies during that period. The amazing thing is that the Germans did not wake up earlier to the situation so as to be able to encounter us in the air. They have done so now. They have got better machines and better pilots—not better than ours, but better than they had—and they have now at a very late period in the War just been able to arrive at the position of being able to encounter our airmen in the air,but—

Mr. BILLING rose—

I did not interrupt the hon. Gentleman. But to say that the Germans are vastly superior and that we are in a third class position is not only grotesquely absurd, but is absolutely untrue. And if the hon. Gentleman thinks that he is serving his country by spreading abroad a statement of this kind which may receive some credence outside of the country, I can only say that he is really doing a very bad service indeed to his country's cause. The hon. Member went on to make some references to an alteration in policy by the amalgamation of the two services, the Royal Naval Air Service and the Royal Flying Corps, and to suggest radical changes of that kind. I do not wish to embark upon those questions of radical changes. I do not think that that is what the House expects of me. I think that what the House expects of the War Office is to show that not only is the importance of the question realised, not only is full provision made, but that the service is efficient—that it is doing good work at the front, and that the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief at the front is satisfied that he is provided with what he requires. Those are the main things. I have read a telegram from the General Officer Commanding at the front. I do not propose to repeat it, but I can assure the House that if Sir Douglas Haig asks for more aeroplanes and larger squadrons of the Royal Flying Corps he will get them as fast as we can turn them out. We have turned them out in very large numbers very successfully, and nobody can doubt that they have been exceedingly efficient up to the present. What we are anxious to do is to keep that high standard of efficiency. I do not like to pass from that part of my subject without reminding the House of what recently occurred at Zeebrugge, which is a credit to the Royal Naval Air Service, and at Cambrai not long ago. When the hon. Gentleman says that no raids are carried out by the Air Service, for which we are responsible, he really is stating what is not true. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for India (Mr. Chamberlain) said just now, we receive private letters, and we do know what is going on. I happen to have had a very interesting account the other day from one of the splendid young fellows of the Royal Flying Corps who went over the German lines at Cambrai, dropped his bombs on their sheds for aeroplanes and Zeppelins at that place, was absolutely successful, and returned, I will not say unhurt, because he had many holes through his aeroplane, but he did get back to our own lines.

Yes, and a very exciting thing it was. Anyone who really takes the trouble to ascertain what the facts are knows that these raids are taking place quite constantly. On Monday morning, only the day before yesterday, we had this raid on Zeebrugge. I cannot part from the hon. Gentleman's speech without saying how singularly ill-informed he seems to be when he talks of Sir David Henderson as the "de Rougemont" of the Air Service, because this country owes a deep debt of gratitude to that gallant general, who has supplied the Royal Flying Corps, for the manner in which it has been supplied not only with first-class machines, but with the wonderful personnel which he has turned out under the system for which he is responsible more than any other man. I come now to the Committee over which my noble Friend Lord Derby presides. The hon. Gentleman has made out that nothing which that Committee can do can be anything but bad. Is the hon. Gentleman serious? Is he anxious for improvement? It seems to me that he is only out to inform the House of some reason for an air election in East Hertfordshire, and that, in order to do that, he must prove that everything is wrong, and that no human being is capable of doing anything right. When he talks of men being "murdered" in the Royal Flying Corps, that is a word which he ought not to have used, for it is not true.

I repeat that statement. If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to challenge that statement, I will produce such evidence as will shock this House.

I hope that the hon. Gentleman is going to withdraw that charge. I absolutely dispute what he says, and I would like him to produce what he calls his "evidence."

I will take an early opportunity of doing so. [HON. MEMBERS: "Now!"] So far as the right hon. Gentleman's references to Zeebrugge are concerned, I would suggest that of the sixty-five machines for whose work we have taken the glory and credit, in connection with the raid on Zeebrugge, not. 12 per cent. were ours, and that the majority of the machines were French and Belgian and not British machines. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about 'murder?'"]

6.0 P.M.

I really do not think that, when the hon. Gentleman comes to reflect on what he has said, he will pre-severe in his statement that anyone has been guilty of murder. I do not wish to pursue that now. If I may, I will take the hon. Gentleman opposite, and the question which he was going to ask and for which I had to prepare an answer. Perhaps it would be simpler to read it as I had prepared it, and then make a few observations. He asked me whether I would arrange that the moment warnings of air raids were received by the military and naval authorities, they should be communicated to the civic and police authorities in the neighbourhood. A system of warning has been arranged between the Field-Marshal Commander-in-Chief at home and the Home Office, the Post Office, and the civic authorities. The system varies in different localities in accordance with local conditions, and I am advised by the Field-Marshal that it is very undesirable to make known what the system is, and to say what the details of it are. I should like my hon. Friend opposite to go with me to the Horse Guards, where he will see for himself the arrangements which have been made, and will be able to satisfy himself as to their perfection. I must say that to accuse us of want of energy in going into this business is hard. I have made it my business to go over everything that has been done and to inform myself, and I was staggered, absolutely amazed, at the wonderful network which has been set up, but into which I cannot of course go now; it would be most undesirable that I should do so. If the hon. Gentleman wishes I should be delighted if he would go across, and see, under the superintendence of the Field-Marshal Commanding-in-Chief at Home, what is being done in that particular direction. In regard to the question whether proper naval and military authorities ought to have been on duty at the time of the raid on the South-East Coast, and were in fact so on that day, I should have thought the very fact that they secured a hostile aeroplane on that occasion was a sufficient proof of it. I think my hon. Friend has been misinformed, because there were two or three of our aeroplanes—I believe they were of the Royal Naval Service—in the air at the time when the hostile aircraft arrived. I would like to impress upon the House that one of the great difficulties with which any defensive force is confronted—I am dealing not with Zeppelins but with seaplanes or aeroplanes—is to discover whether they are hostile aircraft or not that are coming over the sea at between 10O and 120 miles an hour.

Within the range of the Dover, Ramsgate, and Margate area there is a large aerodrome belonging to the Royal Naval Air Service, and, from that aerodrome, aeroplanes and seaplanes are constantly in the air. Anybody who knows about aircraft knows the great difficulty there is in ascertaining whether they are friendly or hostile until they are sufficiently near. You may see them ten or fifteen miles off, or further, if it is a fine, clear day, but you cannot, until they come within three-quarters or half a mile, ascertain whether they are friends or foes. Supposing that we were to give instructions to the civic authorities in places like Margate, Ramsgate, Deal, or Dover that whenever an aeroplane appeared men had to cause a buzzer to be blown, and that everybody must go underground. I am sure that would be an exceedingly unpopular and a very foolish proceeding.

The right hon. Gentleman must not misquote my request, which was that when the naval or military authorities knew that there were hostile aircraft approaching they should communicate that fact to the local authorities.

I do not, dispute that for a moment, and certainly it will be done, and I understand that arrangements have been made with that object. I do not know whether they have miscarried or not at Ramsgate. The raid at Ramsgate to which the hon. Gentleman referred in his speech was one which took place early in February, when none of our arrangements were anything like so complete as they are at present. I hope my hon. Friend will not continue to attack the military and naval authorities by using the words "waking up." I do not think that is a fair statement to make at all; I do not think, honestly, that it is a fair statement. I have shown him what has been done, and I think he will realise that it is not a fair statement. I repudiate the suggestion of supineness, lethargy, and want of appreciation of the serious situation. I must say that those charges do not lie fairly. The hon. Gentleman opposite also said that he had warned me that it would not be a fair thing to put the responsibility of the defensive forces for this purpose in the hands of the Field-Marshal the Commander-in-Chief. I join issue with him there. I do not wish in the least to detract from the amount of work which the Field-Marshal must perform. We all recognise it, but it is surely desirable that these defensive forces should be coordinated and put into one hand. It would be disastrous. If you said to Sir Douglas Haig, put your services into somebody else's hands without any proper control over them, such a course would be impossible, and would greatly hamper him. One other point which the hon. Gentleman raised. He complained that the soldiers had not orders to fire at aircraft. A new Order was issued the other day in order to clear up a matter which did give rise, at any rate, to some doubt in the minds of the military authorities. The new Order was issued by Field-Marshal Lord French three or four weeks ago, and it has been placed in the hands of the troops. But I want to make this clear, that this same difficulty in ascertaining whether a seaplane or an aeroplane is a friend or foe really comes in there. It is exceedingly difficult for the soldiers to know; and it would be very undesirable, it would be disastrous, I think, if the soldiers were to be allowed to fire upon any aircraft they see in the air at any moment. We all know what our enemy is. You must take our enemy, as the First Lord says, as you find him. You often find him in the air without any sufficient sign by which to know that he is your enemy. It is a difficult point, and one which I hope is fully appreciated. I think that what the hon. Gentleman said about persons on the south-east coast, particularly in the area he mentioned, is deserving of every sympathy and appreciation, in view of the dangers under which they live. It is to their great credit, to their eternal credit, that they have shown no sign of wanting to go underground directly they see a hostile airship or aeroplane approaching. On the contrary, the real danger is that they flock out into the streets, and that shows the spirit of our people. I do not say the hon. Gentleman said so, but I think the hon. Member for Hertfordshire informed the House that the people of this country were living in a state of panic, and were hurrying and scuttling about and going into cellars. That is a fabrication of his rather per-fervid imagination.

I am prepared to prove that the population in cities are running about. At Hull people were running into the streets with nightshirts on—women hugging children, men carrying children— a regrettable and dangerous panic. I repeat that, and do not withdraw it.

I think it is a great mistake, if they are true, to make those facts public. I recognise what is due to those brave persons who are bearing the strain with such great fortitude, and I hope the hon. Gentleman, when he sees them next, will inform them that the Government are fully alive to the situation in which they find themselves, that their interest will not be neglected, and that, so far as is humanely possible, we are taking every step and making every endeavour to protect them.

I have listened with interest to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, who, I must say, does not often speak with as much heat as he displayed this afternoon, and I must say it is rather a pity that there should be this acrimonious interchange of views on the part of those who join in the discussion. I am always impressed in these Debates with the fact that it would be a great advantage to us if we could now and then have a secret Session in which we could really engage in a fair and frank interchange of views. The right hon. Gentleman, in the closing part of his speech, referred to the absence of panic; but, after all, I see nothing disgraceful in a man going into a cellar when there are Zeppelins above his head.

So far as I understand, cellars have been dug in the country. With regard to this Air Service, for my own part, I do not think it is the duty of the Government to say in any great detail what they are doing. I think that is a reasonable position to take. All we want from the Government is a general outline of what, in fact, they are doing, and so far as they are able to give an assurance, that it is satisfactory. The right hon. Gentleman told us that the Commander-in-Chief in France is satisfied with the Air Service there. That must give very great satisfaction. But if the Commander-in-Chief in France is satisfied, I do not quite understand what the right hon. Gentleman meant by saying that for the first time, after eight or ten months we were in the ascendancy, and it came as a surprise upon the right hon. Gentleman that the Germans had not wakened up earlier. But, at the same time, there is an indication that they have wakened up, and that in the eight or ten months they have made progress so far as their aeroplanes are concerned.

I would point out that there must be development in this Service. One side for a period develops quicker than the other, and then the other side catches up. That is the position.

I am bound to say I do not think that that is altogether satisfactory. If directly you are in the ascendant you know that the enemy is going to be in the ascendant in turn, that does not seem to me to be a permanent arrangement. As I understand we are at the head of the curve at the moment, but I understand that the right hon. Gentleman, in his very interesting view of the development of this Air Service, looks with composure upon the time when we again shall decline, and when our enemy shall be at the head of the curve.

If what the right hon. Gentleman said does not mean that, then I do not know what he means and I made the mistake quite honestly. I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that this is a new service, and that no nation can maintain itself in a position permanently, but that it is a sort of give-and-take and that you are better for a time and then again worse for a time. It is a consolation, at any rate, to know that at the present moment we are in a satisfactory position. What we are really concerned about, I think, is the position of what has been called the Derby Committee, and I do not think it would have been giving away any secrets to have told us. I am not so much concerned, although it is a very important matter, with what has been said about the personnel of the Committee. I am not in a position to pass an opinion on them. What are the powers of this Committee? That is the real point. If there is any stress going to be laid on this new reform, what really are the powers of the new Committee? I am not saying anything about Lord Derby's appointment, except that I do not think he has got the time to apply to this very important object. I dissociate myself from what the hon. Member for East Hertford (Mr. Billing) said about Lord Montagu of Beaulieu, who is, I think, an excellent addition to that Committee.

Then we must take it he is a very exceptional man because he does not merit the censure of the hon. Member for Hertford. What I should like to know is, What are the functions of this Committee? Does it really in fact do more than try to get the Army and the Navy to work better together? Does it really do more than try and allay the jealousies, or, if you like to call them, rivalries, of those two Departments? Has it got any power of construction? Has it got any right to design? Has it got the right to order a single aeroplane in this country? Has it got any money at its disposal? Really those are vital questions. Of course, the right hon. Gentleman the Under-Secre- tary, on behalf of the War Office, would be responsible in this House, but, as I understand it, I do not think this Committee has any responsibility. Its responsibility is simply to advise, and the advice may be accepted or not. It has no power to insist on its advice being taken even on the most trivial points. Is that a real reform or not? I really do not think it carries us very much further. The right hon. Gentleman has spoken about the darkness. I understand that ten times more accidents have happened in London since the Lighting Order, due to the darkness of the streets, than from the attacks of the Zeppelins. More than that, although on this matter the point is one for experts, and I speak subject to correction, I am informed that even under our present Lighting Regulation an aeroplane 20 miles off can see the lights of London now, and, of course, also the Thames. If that is so, what is the good of it, and if it answers no useful purpose why let it be done? It is not unworthy of mention that Paris does not deal with the situation as we do. Under those circumstances I think it well worthy of the attention of the Government to consider whether the Lighting Regulations of London are really serving any useful purpose. If they are preventing the enemy from doing us injury, then so be it, but if they do not serve that purpose, while they are at the same time putting the people of London to inconvenience, then the matter is well worthy the attention of the Government.

There is another matter to which I would invite the attention of the right hon. Gentleman, and I would remark that one must, of course, speak very carefully of these matters. I am told that before you can be a successful pilot of an aeroplane you must have had at least 200 hours' experience in flying, and the facts brought to my notice are that, with perhaps one exception, there is no one in the higher command who has been a hundred hours in the air. I should like to get some official particulars as to this. [An HON. MEMDER: "Abroad?"} No, here. I am also informed, and it is no secret, that Sir Douglas Haig has not got an experienced airman on his Staff. That is a very serious thing. It seems incredible, I think these are matters that ought to be taken into account. With regard to promotion, there is no seniority list in the Air Service, and the consequence is that if a man is not promoted he has got no definite complaint. In the absence of such a list, promotions ought to be very carefully guarded, and all these men who are risking their lives ought to be satisfied of the fact that the men at the head of the Service in high command are men who have gone through the mill.

I had occasion to refer to Sir David Henderson. He has flown many hundreds of hours. We have also at the War Office another officer, who is Second-in-Command to Sir David Henderson, and he has flown hundreds of hours also.

I should like to know whether either of them has ever flown over the enemy lines in France. [An HON. MEMBER: "That is another point."] It may be another point, but it is not a bad point. It would be much more satisfactory—and I am not now referring to those two gentlemen, but putting it generally—for the men in this Air Service if they knew that the men at the head were really experienced and were taking part in flying in the War. At any rate, remember this, that Sir Douglas Haig has gone through the mill. He was a subaltern himself and has fought, and every man in the higher command in our Army and Navy has seen actual service. That is the point I make. There is one other matter which I very seriously put before the right hon. Gentleman, and it is this. I am not going into the question now, but my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. Roch) called attention to-day to a very important question with regard to the married men on Question 49. Have the Government really made up their minds as to what assistance they are going to give, and will they announce it to-day or to-morrow or the day after? Quarter day is on the 25th March, and a great many of those people have tenancies and could give notice on the 25th March. Is it not a reasonable thing to ask the Government to make up its mind whether it is going to make any concession to these men in respect of tenancies? I submit that the time has come with regard to these married men, without going into the general controversy, when somebody must relieve them, at any rate from rents and rates and taxes and insurance. I do not put it any higher than that. If anything is going to be done to relieve them of the obligation of rent, then the next two days is the appropriate time to make an announcement. The matter has been before the Government for some weeks now, and there is no reason why they should not announce, as far as rent and rent only is concerned, what action they are going to take to enable men who cannot afford to maintain their tenancies to know what position they are in. I am not going into the general question now.

I feel quite satisfied that upon all these questions as well as upon the air question it would be well if the Government took the House more into its confidence. There need not be so much secrecy about the Air Service. The less we know officially the more we know unofficially. I always feel there is an unreality about a great many of our Debates, because what really can be usefully said cannot be safely said, and what can be safely said cannot be very usefully said. As far as I understand I am perfectly certain that the Government have not been wise in concealing a great many matters from the House as to which the House could have been taken into its confidence, and to that is due a great many of the difficulties. By the time the Air Debate which we are promised comes on I trust that the right hon. Gentleman, when he is making his announcements, will be able to give us a little more particularity about these matters, and that the position will be more satisfactory than it is to-day, and that he will be able to give an assurance to the country on this matter. Nobody pretends that the Government can guarantee the safety of the people. I agree with every word the right hon. Gentleman said, for it seems to me, although I am not an expert, that when an enemy machine comes you cannot possibly tell until the machine is very near and there is no knowing that it may be one of our own machines or made to look like it, and it would be very dangerous to fire haphazard without some official information on that point. [An HON. MEMBER: "There are the marks!"] There is no reason why the Germans should not have on our marks. [An HON. MEMBER: "They have not done so!"] That is the best thing I have heard of them for a long time. You may be quite sure, if they do not do so, it is not policy or any conscientious objection which deters them in this respect. I do hope, on the occasion of the forthcoming Debate, the right hon. Gentleman will be able to give us some assurance that the Air Committee, with Lord Derby at its head, has got some power, and that it is not merely a consultative and advisory Committee, bnt with the executive power in its hands, and that it is co-ordinating the two services—that is the Army Air Service and the Navy Air Service—and that it is a step in the inevitable development of an Air Ministry in this country.

Military Service Act

The right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken referred to the promise of a special day for the discussion of the air question. I think, therefore, we are justified in turning the subject of this Debate on to another matter of very grave and urgent importance. I desire to call the attention of the President of the Local Government Board and of the Under-Secretary of State for War to the administration of the Military Service Act. Whatever may be the individual views which Members may have upon certain provisions of that measure we are all agreed, I think, now that it has become the law of the land, that its provisions should be judiciously and fairly administered. I want to place before the House evidence that the Act is not being administered in a fair and judicial manner, and that its provisions are being most flagrantly violated by those who have had imposed upon them the responsibility of its administration. Every day questions are addressed to Ministers in regard to particular instances of the unfair administration of this Act. I have myself been responsible for a number of those questions, and I regret to have to say that upon only a very few occasions have I had the satisfaction of getting any reply from the right hon. "Gentleman which seemed to indicate that he was anxious to assist the fair and judicial administration of this measure. Before the administration of this Act by the local tribunals began the President of the Local Government Board issued instructions to the local tribunals, and I think I am expressing the views of all who hold my general opinion upon this question when I say that we were quite satisfied with those instructions. They were framed in the most fair and generous spirit, and if the local tribunals had fully carried them out I do not think it would have been necessary this evening to make any complaint.

The responsibility for the administration of this Act is divided between the Local Government Board and the War Office, and I shall indict, both Departments. There are a number of matters which have been dealt with during the last few weeks, particularly by the right hon. Member for Walthamstow, and in re- gard to those matters I shall do no more than make one or two passing observations. The counts in the indictment of the two Departments have been mentioned. It is to three or four only that I want especially to direct attention. Already, in the discussions to which I have referred, there have been brought before the House cases of unfit persons who are being pressed into Army service. Within the last week or two we have had promises from the War Office that some improvement in this matter would be effected. I regret to say, from information which comes into my possession every day, that no improvement is taking place. I will not trouble the House with a large number of cases, but I could keep Members here all the week giving particular instances of the gross violation of the provisions of the Act by the War Office and by the local tribunals. I will take under two or three headings just a few typical cases. Most of these cases have been brought to my notice by correspondents in different parts of the country. The first is the case of a young fellow at Burwell, in Leicestershire. This young fellow is feeble-minded—so feeble-minded that he is quite incapable of replying to questions addressed to him. He received a notice; he was taken by a friend to the recruiting office; he was quite incapable of answering any question himself. The recruiting officer said, "This man is no good for a soldier." He was handed over to the medical officer, who refused to accept him, and he was told that a certificate would be sent on. His friends went no less than four times to the recruiting office for that certificate, but it was never ready. This half-imbecile was told to come again. He was taken, and he was attested, and the man who took him to the recruiting officer says in his letter to me: I will give one more case of this character, this time from St. Helens. It is the Case of a young fellow, twenty-two years of age, who has never worked. He is a sufferer from epilepsy. He suffers so badly that he cannot go about unless he has someone with him. He has been known to have as many as fifteen fits in a day. He has received notice to be called up. He was taken by a friend to the recruiting office, and he was passed by the doctor. I want to know from the War Office why this sort of thing is being done, and for what purpose these men are being enrolled in the Army? I put a question to the Under-Secretary of State last week about two men who came before the Southwark Tribunal on the 9th March. One man had only one hand and the other had a paralysed leg, but the doctor passed them both. The reply I got was that these men might be of some service as soldiers.

I want now to pass to cases of exempt persons who are being threatened and abused by military officers. The first is a case from York less than a week ago. It is the case of an Irishman who is in York for a temporary purpose. He has been discovered by the recruiting officer and has received a notice calling him to the Colours on a definite day. He went with this notice to Colonel Robson, the chief recruiting officer. At first the Colonel seemed inclined to agree that he was outside the Military Service Act, but later on he reconsidered the matter. Repeated interviews have taken place. This man tells me that Colonel Robson abused him for his lack of patriotism and denounced the Irish in general. The last decision of Colonel Robson is, that if this young Irishman, who is temporarily in York, does not turn up upon the appointed day an armed guard will be sent for him. What right has a military officer to threaten to send an armed guard? He cannot legally send an armed guard. If this man does not turn up he must be summoned before a Civil Court, and it is for the Civil Court to decide the matter. I had on the Paper to-day a question relating to the kidnapping of a boy at Glossop, and the Under-Secretary of State tells me that he is going to look into the matter. I will give the House some particulars of the case because it is so typical of what is going on all over the country. This lad lived at Glossop. He has been medically rejected twice, and has a certificate to prove it. He went to the recruiting officer at Glossop and was kidnapped. The next his mother knew about him was that he was training as a soldier at Chester. The particulars of a similar case have been sent me from Yorkshire. The mother lives in Yorkshire; the boy was working in Brighton. He was summoned to appear before the local tribunal on the 9th March. He went at the appointed time and never came back to his work. His employer made inquiries, but he had disappeared He had been kidnapped at the local tribunal and sent to Chichester. The lad protested as best he could, but he was not even permitted to telephone to his employer. Here is a statement made by W. C. Birch, 1, Mill Street, Crewe. He was examined at a recruiting office in December and found to be medically unfit; all kinds of ailments were specified. On 9th March he received Army Form W 3236 containing instructions to report on 11th March.

I now pass to the administration of the Act by the local tribunals. I want first of all to call attention to cases where the local tribunals ace flagrantly ignoring, not only the instructions of the President of the Local Government Board, but the provisions of the Act itself. I want to submit cases where the tribunals are refusing to hear applications. What say the statutory rules issued by the right hon. Gentleman himself? They say: Those are the Regulations of the right hon. Gentleman. How are they being carried out by the local tribunal? Take two or three cases that have just recently come before the Enfield Local Tribunal. On 3rd March Alfred William Davies, 465, Hertford Road, Enfield Highway, appealed for exemption as a conscientious objector. After hearing, the military representative suggested to the tribunal that the latter should grant applicant non-combatant service. The military representative said, "We want to get them altogether," and applicant was refused leave to appeal. That is a distinct violation not only of the Regulations, but of the Act of Parliament itself. This is by no means the only case. I have a case here at Colne in Lancashire, where the applicant, after his claim had been disallowed, was told that he was refused leave to appeal. In regard to another aspect of this refusal to administer the Act in a fair and judicial spirit, I read from the Regulations just now to the effect that the applicant is entitled to be heard. In a great many instances the tribunals are refusing to hear the applicant. An applicant appears before the tribunal. His form is before the chairman. It is marked with the decision of the Advisory Board, a Board which, as I pointed out in the House a week or two ago, has no legal standing whatever. The clerk to the local tribunal has no right at all to allow the Advisory Committee to see these forms. The War Office under the Act and under the Regulations is a party to the case, and it is an outrageous thing that the party for the prosecution, as it were, should be given the case for the defence before the trial comes on.

Take another case, here again before the Enfield Local Tribunal. The case only occupied three minutes, and the application was refused without the applicant being heard. The applicant asked the chairman if he did not believe that he (the applicant) had a genuine conscientious objection. And this was the chairman's reply to the question, and his administration of the Act in a fair and impartial spirit: Enfield Tribunal, which is by no means the only body which is administering the Act in this manner. The Mountain Ash Tribunal announces that no adviser who is not a solicitor will be allowed to accompany the conscientious objector. The right hon. Gentleman does not need to be reminded that that is opposed both to the provisions of the Act itself and to his own statutory Regulations. I want now to call attention to an extremely serious matter, because this action on the part of the tribunals is inflicting the gravest injustice upon a great many persons. I have no doubt the right hon. Gentleman when he replies will say that if the applicant feels that he has not had fair treatment from the local tribunal he can appeal. But he cannot appeal if insuperable difficulties are placed in the way of his making his appeal. It is the practice of a great many tribunals to delay so long the sending of their decision to the applicant that no time is left for him to send in an application, I had a letter this morning from Derby in connection with a case that was tried on Monday afternoon. The man has written to the right hon. Gentleman to ask if he may appeal, as he had been informed by the local tribunal that he had no right of appeal. The time expires to-morrow. I have had to telegraph to the man this afternoon that he had a legal right of appeal. Just one other instance, and this is at the Fulham Tribunal. On 11th March several applicants who wished to appeal asked from when the three days ran. They were told from that moment, Upon asking for forms, they were told they could not have them till the 13th instant—that was two days later, thus reducing the three days to one. The "Lambeth Free Press" in an editorial note in its last issue, speaking of the genial way in which the Mayor of Lambeth presides over the tribunal, says: hon. Gentleman too severely. I know he has taken action in a great number of cases I have put before him. Some time ago I called his attention to the constitution of the tribunal of the rural district of Pickering, Yorkshire. The right hon. Gentleman made representations to the effect that there was no labour representation upon the tribunal, and acting upon a letter from the right hon. Gentleman, the tribunal have made the fullest possible concession in the matter by appointing me a member of the tribunal. Let me mention the interference of clerks of tribunals in the proceedings of the tribunals. I would like the right hon. Gentleman to tell me whether these men are, or are not, members of the tribunals, because in many cases they seem to usurp what one would imagine to be the functions of the chairman. I had a question on the Paper to-day with regard to two of these clerks, one of whom is at St. Austell's, Cornwall. He has stated that he does not believe in conscientious objectors. What right has he to make an observation of that sort? There is also the town clerk of Accrington, who really does preside over a tribunal. If you read the reports of the cases in local papers you will see some observation by the town clerk every two or three lines. He quotes Scripture to the conscientious objector. He tells them—and I do not say this irreverently—what Jesus Christ would have done if he had been here to-day, and he advises the tribunal in regard to their decision.

I turn to industrial conscription. I will not trouble, on this point, to read either the provisions of the Act or the instructions of the Local Government Board. But neither the Act nor the instructions of the Board are being observed by all the tribunals. I put a question last week to the right hon. Gentleman about a case that had been before the Southampton tribunal, where exemption had been given on condition that the man remained in the service of his then employer. Unfortunately the word on the paper appeared as "sailmaker" instead of "scale-maker," and, taking advantage of that, the Southampton local tribunal, being appealed to by the right hon. Gentleman, said they knew nothing at all about such a case. There is no doubt about it. Exemption was claimed by this scale-maker, who is thirty-four years old, on the ground of indispensability to the business. The applicant said his two sons had enlisted in the Service, and were serving, and a conditional certificate was granted while the employé was working for the same employer. Here is another case before the same tribunal. A market gardener was given exemption so long as he worked with the same employer and at the same market garden. Messrs. Carter, Patterson and Co. appealed before the Fulham tribunal on 4th March for certain of their men. Exemption was granted so-long as they stayed with Messrs. Carter, Patterson. Let me deal with a matter that falls, I think, within the province of the War Office, and that is the part the military representatives upon the tribunals are taking. The statutory rules say that a military representative shall have the right to appear as a party when an application is heard by a tribunal— "a" military representative, not half a dozen military representatives. A military representative, being a party to the case, just as the applicant is a party, can have no judicial function on the tribunal; but the military representatives have assumed judicial functions. Let me quote a case that came before the Fulham Tribunal or rather, it is a statement of what happened at two sittings of the Fulham Tribunal:

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I want now to turn again to a matter that comes within the province of the Local Government Board, and that is the treatment of the conscientious objector. As I said at the beginning of my observations, whatever may be the views of Parliament, and whatever may be the views of the Local Government Board, and of the tribunals, it ought to be recognised that these men have been given certain rights by an Act of Parliament and they are entitled, if they make out their case, to have these rights conceded. I do not think I am stating the case in any extreme way when I say that the treatment generally by these local tribunals of conscientious objectors has been nothing short of an outrage and a public scandal. The right hon. Gentleman, in his instructions to the tribunals, said that the tribunals must be so constituted, and they must do their duty in such a way, as to make the conscientious objector feel that his case might safely be entrusted to them. Instead of that a great many of the tribunals seem to take a delight in heaping scorn and insults upon the applicants who appear before them for exemption on this ground. Take a few cases. A member of the Oldbury Tribunal stated: has been in communication with the tribunal, and I have reason to believe, and I hope, acting on the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman, that this offending councillor is going to be dismissed from the tribunal. If the right hon. Gentleman would take similar action in cases of a similar character, I think we might reasonably look for an improvement in the conduct of these tribunals.

I want now to deal with this very difficult but vitally important matter. When we were discussing the Military Service Bill, it was pointed out more than once how difficult it would be for an applicant for exemption on the ground of conscience to make out a case. Well, practical experience is showing that very great difficulty. A great many of the tribunals are refusing to receive evidence. They are refusing to accept the testimony of men who have known the applicant for a great many years. There is the widest diversity of method and decision amongst these tribunals. Some tribunals are giving absolute exemption. Some refuse to give absolute exemption in any case. Some tribunals are refusing to give exemption to a man on religious grounds. The town clerk of Accrington, to whom I have referred already, advised his tribunal publicly that a man should not have exemption unless it were on religious grounds, and some tribunals are refusing to give exemption to men unless they belong to the Society of Friends, and I have had a great many cases sent to me where tribunals have refused to give exemption to men who are members of the Society of Friends. How is a man to prove the possession of a conscience in this matter? It can only be done by producing evidence—by his own statement as to what he feels, how long he has held those opinions, and people who know the man to have held those opinions for some time. Instead of doing that, this is the sort of catechism to which the tribunals submit men who appear before them for the purpose of proving the possession of a conscience. An applicant, named Pierce, appeared before the Holborn tribunal on the 4th March, and the following took place: question to prejudice his decision. He ought to exercise a fair and judicial mind. Here is a case which rather comes within the Department of the Minister of Munitions, whom I am glad to see here. And it is a Welshman to boot. This was at Aberavon, and the applicant was a conscientious objector. He said:

Is that a case where a man is engaged in works where they are making munitions?

The man had been working there before, and surely the right hon. Gentleman does not expect he is going to leave simply because the control passes into the hands of the right hon. Gentleman. The chairman of that tribunal said they had heard seventy-five conscientious objections and disallowed every one of the claims. This was at Bethnal Green. A conscientious objector, after putting up a good case, offered to call a witness to prove the sincerity of his convictions, and the chairman replied: conscientious objector. It says that if he has a conscientious objection and the tribunal are satisfied of that fact, he must have exemption. Another man at the same tribunal, who had proved to an impartial person a conscientious objection of a religious and moral nature, was told that because he had asked for total exemption, and was not willing to undertake non-combatant service, the tribunal did not believe in his sincerity, and refused him any exemption at all. At Tunbridge Wells a well-known conscientious objector was refused exemption on the ground that he was not a Christian. Another man was refused because the chairman said he could not consider his conscience, but must subordinate it to the conscience of the country he lived in. I could give scores of similar cases, but it is like gilding refined gold or painting the lily to add further cases.

I put a question to-day about a statement made by the chairman of the Helmsley District Tribunal, and I got a most unsympathetic reply. The chairman had announced that will probably say that there is an Appeal Tribunal. From what we see of the constitution of the Appeal Tribunals in different part of the country we have very little reason to hope that these men will get fairer treatment from them than from the local tribunal. I have a certain admiration for the chairman of the Alexander Tribunal, which meets near Glasgow. There he sits, with the Bible in front of him, and he keeps it open at a text somewhere about Deuteronomy, and this text completely paralyses everyone who brings forward the Sermon on the Mount. Here is another case from Hammersmith. A parent writes to me about his son, and he says that the chairman of the tribunal in the hearing of his son said: here and there a man with no conscience of any sort who has taken advantage of this Act, but I am not surprised at the number of such applications. I knew of the existence of these men, and I say in all seriousness that I know these young fellows, and there are hundreds and thousands of them; these men are the present-day type of those men to whom we owe all the liberties we have to-day. They are men who are prepared to go to the scaffold for the sake of their principles. They are men who without a quiver will stand against the wall and face the muskets of the soldiers rather than be conscripted into an Army against their conscientious views.

What is the Government going to do? Are they going to face this situation? I had a most unsatisfactory reply from the War Office last week in regard to the death penalty. When the Military Service Bill was before Parliament I moved an Amendment that the death penalty should not be enforced upon any man who refused to be conscripted. Perhaps I may be allowed to paraphrase what I said when I was moving my Amendment. According to the Act as it has been interpreted by the Attorney-General, and the reply given by the War Office last week, the position is this: If a young fellow, smarting under a sense of injustice, is treated in the way I have shown; refuses to answer the summons legally, he cannot be fetched by an armed guard, as the military men are threatening to do, because that would be illegal, and he must be taken to a Civil Court, and that Court will decide whether he has been deemed to be enlisted or not. If that Court so decides, then he can be fined, and I see that they are being fined. If he refuses to pay the fine I suppose he will be sent to prison. When he pays the fine or comes out of prison what happens? I suppose he is handed over to the military authorities. Suppose the man refuses to move a step or to put on khaki. Suppose he refuses to obey one military order that is given to him. He has then come under military law, and according to the answer given to me last week that man is liable to every penalty imposed by the Army Regulations for disobedience to Army orders. I bring forward this question because of its tremendous importance, and I hope that this evening we shall have this matter cleared up. This was my question. I asked if the undertaking given by the Attorney-General in the House oh 18th January last extended to a person taken by force under the Military Service Act who refused to submit to the military law, and, if so, would he receive the maximum penalty that could be imposed in such a case? The answer I received from the Under-Secretary for War was:

I have detained the House a long time, but the importance of this subject must be my excuse. There is one provision in the Act which is seldom taken advantage of by the local tribunals and which I think they might have used to a much greater extent. It will be remembered that my hon. Friend the Member for West Leeds was instrumental in getting into the Bill a provision for finding work which was not military work for those who had a conscientious objection to military service. I have only met with one case where a local tribunal has taken advantage of this provision. There is no doubt that a great many of these conscientious objectors would be doing more useful service to their country if they were left to follow their present employment, and I specially commend that aspect of the question to the consideration of the Government. I do not think the Government are any more anxious than we are that there should not be unnecessary trouble in the administration of the Act. When I was speaking upon this matter a fortnight ago I suggested to the President of the Local Government Board that he might send out a circular letter to these local tribunals, pointing out to them the mistakes that they were making and that his instructions were not being carried out either in the letter or in the spirit. He declined to do that at that time, but I believe he is now disposed to consider the suggestion.

No, I did not decline to do that. I declined to send out a circular letter containing extracts from speeches in this House. On the contrary, I said that if my attention were called to any mistakes on the part of the tribunals I should be glad to look into them and, if necessary, send a circular letter pointing out to the tribunals what their duties were.

Both the right hon. Gentleman and myself are quite correct, only we are speaking of different occasions. I am speaking of an incident that happened probably three weeks ago, but it is quite true that later the right hon. Gentleman did agree to do this, though if he had done it sooner a great many of the difficulties that have arisen might have been obviated. We do not want him to do anything that is not provided for by the Act.

And the Regulations. I understand that the Regulations have all the authority of an Act of Parliament. We want the right hon. Gentleman to do whatever lies in his power to see that the Act is administered in the spirit of his own instructions. Every person who appears before a tribunal should feel, however much the members of that tribunal may disagree with his views, that he is being fairly treated, and I do hope that we shall receive both from the War Office and the Local Government Board a sympathetic reply and that it will be followed by sympathetic action.

I wish to join in the appeal which has been made by my hon. Friend to the right hon. Gentleman, because I am sure that all of us are deeply grateful to him for the spirit of his instructions and for his evident, desire that this Act shall be administered impartially and justly. Although I join with my hon. Friend in deploring the way in which many local tribunals have administered the Act, I must say I feel convinced that the Local Government Board have made great efforts to secure that it shall be fairly administered, and I believe that even yet, by prompt action, much may be done to prevent further cases of injustice from occurring. Many of these cases of difficulty are inherent in the nature of the Act. In the application of such an Act there must necessarily be cases of great hardship, and no tribunal which has to deal with matters of conscience can, in the nature of things, expect to be perfect. No doubt all that is expected of the Act is that a kind of rough justice should be done, but the cases that nave been already adduced in this House make it quite clear that in too many instances there has not been rough justice, but rough injustice. They are cases which might have been avoided, and in the interests of the Act itself they ought to lave been avoided. The Government must realise, and I think the House will realise, that if this Act is to be worked successfully we want to avoid as far as possible this sense of injustice and of hardship wherever we can do it. The very way in which the Act has been administered in many cases has created that sense of hardship and of injustice. The particular cases which I want to bring up are all cases in which the injustice might be prevented by a different spirit in the tribunals and by a completer knowledge of the law. They cannot be remedied by the mere fact that there is an appeal tribunal unless the appeal tribunal deals with these cases in a very different spirit and is guided, as I hope it will be, by very clear instructions from the right hon. Gentleman.

I want to give one instance from London of the sort of way in which too often the local tribunals have been acting. This is the case of the Bermondsey Tribunal, where there seems to be a very strong prejudice on the part of the members of the tribunal against the political view of applicants who happen to be Socialists. While the case of one applicant, Mr. Bowes, was being stated, one prominent member of the tribunal was ostentatiously reading a newspaper and smother was knitting. The applicant protested that his case was not being properly listened to. The member reading the newspaper said, "You protest, do you? Well, you can go on protesting." The chairman then asked him, "How do you know that he is going to vote in your case?" The applicant replied, "That is what he is here for." When a decision was called for, the newspaper reader automatically held up his hand against the application. If that sort of thing goes on, you cannot get justice. It may be granted that the case of the applicant ought to have been refused, but he should at least have been heard. The same tribunal had before it the case of a conscientious objector who was also suffering from tubercular disease of the spine. The tribunal absolutely refused to consider his conscientious objection because he had also at the same time claimed on the ground of having tubercular disease of the spine, which, of course, on the face of it, was a reasonable ground for claiming the consideration of the tribunal. That is only one case of many which might be brought of the way in which the tribunal acts, and which inevitably causes a sense of injustice quite apart from the Tightness or wrongness of a particular decision.

We have to deal also with far too many cases where tribunals have recognised that there is a conscientious objection and where, notwithstanding, they have refused to grant any exemption. That is absolutely contrary to the law and to the spirit of the Act. When they have agreed that there is a genuine conscientious objection, they ought at least to grant some exemption. May I give a case for which I can personally vouch. It is that of Mr. Theodore Shewell, a member of the Society of Friends, a man of highest character, who claimed before the Redcar Tribunal. The tribunal treated him kindly, and even deferentially, acknowledged the genuineness of his convictions, and then disallowed his claim entirely. How can you say that is administering the Act fairly? They show every kindness and consideration in considering the case, they admit that he has a conscientious objection, and then they refuse to allow him any kind of exemption. That case does not stand alone. There are other cases where similar conduct has been shown by the local tribunals. The tribunals have largely ignored their right to grant absolute exemption, and very frequently they have been informed by the military representative that they have no such right. It was explained by Lord Lansdowne, in the House of Lords, that that right did exist, and that it would be used in certain rare cases. We owe it to the just administration of this Act that it should be made quite clear to the appeal tribunals that this right does exist. I understand a very important decision has recently been given by Sir Lewis Dibden quite contrary to that, and I think it is very important that this misunderstanding should be corrected authoritatively at the earliest possible moment. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will deal specially with that point. I quite understand it may be only in comparatively rare cases that form of exemption may be granted, but I submit there are cases which can only be met satisfactorily in that way. There are many cases where the military representatives have frequently misguided the tribunals, but there are other cases where the military representatives have been exceedingly fair, and even fairer than the tribunals, willing to take a more sympathetic attitude and a more reasonable attitude, an attitude which I venture to think works for the just administration of the Acts. I do not wish to imply that they have always been unfair, far from it.

It is a fact that in the great majority of cases the tribunals, as mentioned by my non. Friend a little time ago, have absolutely ignored the provision in the Act for granting exemption in the case of willingness to do work of national importance. I think that is of the greatest value. It ought to deal with a very large number of cases. It ought to turn to useful service, and it ought to continue in useful service, men who otherwise would only be a cause of difficulty to the Army as well as to the country. You cannot get effective military service out of them, but you can cause a great deal of inconvenience to the Army itself, because men who might be more usefully employed in other ways will have to be employed in guarding, looking after and punishing these men, and that would be an unfortunate thing, both from the point of view of the men themselves, and from the point of view of the Army. In case after case brought to my notice men have offered to do work of national importance not under the Army, and the tribunals have not merely rejected the offer, but they have refused to consider it in any way. Sometimes the tribunals have even stated that they have no power to consider it at all. It is of the greatest importance that the Government should make it clear that they mean that option of exemption to be a reality, and I hope they will be able to take some opportunity of taking action themselves to see that these great forces of goodwill which are in existence shall be turned into fruitful and useful channels. These men are anxious to serve their country in a way which they can do in accordance with their consciences. The House may consider that they are misguided, but why not use them for the advantage of the country?

Unfortunately, the worst case of all is that of the tribunal which deliberately refuses to recognise the guidance which has been given by the President of the Local Government Board. I want to refer to one special case of that kind. There have been a number of cases in which the tribunal has flatly ignored the instructions. There have been a great many cases where I am almost certain from the conduct of the tribunals the members have not read the instructions. They have shown by their action that they do not know what advice the President of the Local Government Board has given. I want to read one particular case which, to my mind, is a clear instance of the way in which the well-intentioned action of the Government has been entirely overlooked by a prejudiced tribunal. This is the case of the East Ham Tribunal. The applicant writes:—

"When I read to them Mr. Long's reply to your question—"

a question which I put in the House on 9th March—

"The Chairman said it did not matter what Mr. Long or anyone else said in Parliament, for the tribunal were there to administer the Act, and before they could grant complete exemption Parliament must alter the Act."

They simply did not know the Act, and they ignored altogether the Minister's explanation of it. The applicant continued:

"When I read Mr. Long's circular, paragraph 16, allowing absolute exemption in certain cases, I wag told it did not matter what Mr. Long or his Circular said. May I ask what is the use of Ministerial replies and Official Circulars if they are to be ignored in this manner?"

I think that man has a just right of complaint, when I realise that the Act of Parliament and the explanations of the Minister in charge are practically ignored by the tribunal which is supposed to administer the Act. I could weary the House with instance after instance of particular injustices which have been occurring during the last few weeks. I do not, however, want to make out a case against the Government or even against the Act, although I regret the passing of it. But I do want to see this sense of injustice removed, and I desire to preserve, as far as possible, the harmony of the nation at this crisis. But if we are to do that we must have a different spirit manifested in the Appeal Tribunals. Unfortunately we have already had instances of the way in which the Appeal Tribunals themselves are working. I would like to refer to what occurred before the Oxford Tribunal, which has had to deal with the number of cases of undergraduates who have appealed on the ground of conscientious objection to military service. This Appeal Tribunal has absolutely refused to consider the willingness of the applicants to do service of national importance, and I can quote cases in which there have been such refusals. Two undergraduates of St. John's College, Oxford, Messrs. D. H. Blelloch and E. W. Postgate, applied to the local tribunal for absolute exemption on conscientious grounds, but were granted exemption only from combatant service. They appealed to the Appeal Tribunal, and both of them asked for an adjournment on the ground that they were in communication with various people with a view to obtaining alternative work of national importance. They wished to prove their desire to do such work, but the adjournment was refused. Can that be considered to be in the spirit of justice?

The hon. Baronet says "Let them do their share in the Army." But he is not going to get men in that way, although the alternative may mean imprisonment.

According to the hon. Member these men have been granted exemption from actual combatant service. Cannot they do other work?

The hon. Baronet fails to understand the whole position of the conscientious objector. It is to taking part in military measures for the prosecution of the War.

The men are prepared to serve their country in a civil capacity, and they have offered service in work of national importance, an alternative which is provided for them in the Act itself. But the tribunal has refused even to consider this offer which they have made.

What about trying to find work? Are the tribunals to wait until they succeed?

I simply give these as instances of the manner in which the Appeal Tribunal is misinterpreting the Act. There is time, happily, to set a different example to the other tribunals, and I hope very much the Government will take the opportunity offered by this Debate to make quite clear the fact that they wish the option provided by the Act to be a reality and not a dead letter. I appeal most earnestly to them to take this opportunity of making their intentions in this matter perfectly clear.

For over an hour we have had this discussion going on. We have had horror piled upon horror, and one would imagine that the Prussian Guards and the Holy Inquisition had joined hands on the soil of this country. Unfortunately, the grievance is not against any Holy Inquisition, backed up by the Prussian Guard, set up in this country; it is against the action of thousands of democratic tribunals composed of ordinary men such as one meets in the street, assisted by military representatives of whom not one in fifty is a professional soldier. [An HON. MEMBER: "Tories!"] Some may be Tories and some may be Liberals, but I do not know a single one either way. The real trouble of the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden) is that he is profoundly dissatisfied with his countrymen, and with the constitution of these tribunals, although they consist of ordinary business men, with in very many cases representatives of the trades unions. That fact in itself probably accounts for their giving very little consideration to the conscientious objector. It is very possible, if the tribunals were set up by this House, or if there were a central body appointed by the Government, they might be more considerate; but there is a good deal of rough common sense in the tribunals which have been appointed, and the whole catalogue of horrors drawn up by the hon. Member will not meet with much sympathy from those who read the report of the Debate in to-morrow's papers.

I will admit readily that there have been cases—I daresay a good many cases—in which the tribunals have not very carefully considered the powers conferred upon them by this Act. But you have to remember that there are many thousands of these tribunals. They have been set up in a very great hurry, at a time when the need for men is extremely urgent, and therefore an enormous number of cases have to be got through. But I would ask whose fault is it that they had to be set up in such a hurry? Who are the people whose objections prevented a system of compulsory service being initiated in good time, when it could be worked out with care, and when the best type of tribunal could be arrived at after the most careful consideration? If there are defects in the administration and work of the tribunals—and on the whole it seems to me that the tribunals have got through a very difficult ordeal most successfully—if there are defects in their administration it is largely the result of the insensate opposition of those who would not face the facts of the military situation, who would not face the necessities of the Government, and the responsibility has to be shared between them and the Government who were so unwise as to pay them greater attention than they deserved.

I will not, however, detain the House on this matter. I would rather say a few words upon the much more important question, how to get for the Army the men who are urgently and instantly required to enable us, at any rate, to have a chance of bringing this War to an end this summer, and to bring peace again to this country. I do not propose to say anything this evening on the question of the pledge to the married men. That has already been discussed at length by a great many speakers in the last week, and really it is entirely irrelevant to the military needs of the country. The real question is not what Mr. A. or what Lord B. promised, but whether the Government of this country are taking the measures which are so urgently needed in order to put all the resources of our people at work to secure victory. On that subject some speeches have been made with which I profoundly disagree, but which are, nevertheless, very relevant to the matter. The speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon) and that of the hon. Member for Mid-Lanark (Mr. Pringle) were very relevant to the question. It is desirable to consider how many men can be spared for military service, how many men are necessarily required for the work of producing munitions, and how many are required to meet the needs of the Navy and for the production of food and other absolutely indispensable necessaries. All these things have to be considered, and the duty of the Government undoubtedly is to see that no indispensable need is lacking.

The Government have admitted that if they take too many men for military service the Navy will no longer be able to get the new ships it requires, or if they take too many men from munitions the large Army at the front can no longer be provided with shells. Undoubtedly the task of the Government is to see how every person can be utilised to the fullest extent, and that those who are not fit for military work shall be efficiently utilised on other work. It seems to me that this can only be carried out effectively if the Government is hampered by no limitations whatever in the colossal and tremendously difficult task of so distributing the efforts of the population that we can make sure of victory in the field, sure of having the men we require, sure of having the munitions we need, sure of being able to feed our people and to maintain absolute command of the sea, without which everything else would be thrown away. At present the Government of this country is working under very serious limitations. The President of the Local Government Board said yesterday that he was going through the industries which are under his Board with a small tooth-comb. From what I can hear he is doing it and he has made determined efforts to try and secure out of those industries men for the fighting line, without injuring the productive power of the nation in other ways.

Not the mines? Are they within the right hon. Gentleman's particular sphere?

I would like to point out that this tooth-comb is one of those old combs which has some very big gaps. Let me refer to some of the gaps which exist in that comb. There is, of course, the immense gap of the unattested married men. One million men of military age are outside its purview. There are the men who became eighteen years of age since 15th August last, and the men who have at any time served, who have been discharged and who are now time-expired. All these gaps make the task of the right hon. Gentleman very difficult. Yet the need of the country is immensely urgent, immensely serious. I have no doubt that a great many more men will be produced as a result of this process of winnowing and sifting. A great many more men would be promptly secured if effective action were taken by the Home Office in rounding-up the men who have no sort of plea, no badge, no exemption, and nothing but the fact that they are dodging the Military Service Act. As the hon. Member for Blackburn rightly said, it is not the business of the military to call them up. It is the business of the Civil authorities—that is, the Home Office—to take immediate steps to round-up all these men. No doubt it will also be necessary to have a new National Register to trace these men and get hold of them as quickly as possible. But Lord Kitchener said the other day, and I believe he was very far from overstating the case, that even if all the single men were brought up, the attested married men would be required in the next few weeks. Is the War going to end in the next few weeks? Is it not desirable that at some time or other we should try to take a survey of the situation and look a little bit ahead? Is it not really necessary that the whole situation should be faced now, and that we should decide at once what we really mean to do in order to keep our Armies at full strength consistently with the other needs of the country during the coming year?

I put it again, as I did the other day, although I am afraid I was not able to get an answer from the President of the Local Government Board, on the ground of the immediate practical needs of industry. He is now concerned with toothcombing the industries. He is taking out the unmarried men of military age. Those men have to be replaced. The point to which I would like him to give an answer is, What limitations is he going to put on the kind of men who are to replace them? Is he going to allow these men to be replaced by married men of good physique, of military age, and with no exceptional domestic responsibilities? If he is it is absolutely inevitable that within a month or two—at the outside within three or four months—he will have to come back and again have to disorganise industry and again create a sense of injustice and unfairness by dragging out these men. Is it not really necessary to say now that all men of military age and of good physique are going to be called upon as the Government needs them, and that the employers should understand clearly that if they take a man who is fit for soldiering, whether he is a married or unmarried man, whether he is attested or an unattested man, they do it at their own risk, and that they are likely to lose that man?

At the same time I would urge upon the Government that they should come to a clear decision as to the futility of enlisting men who are utterly unfit for military service. The hon. Member for Blackburn said he had received letters on that subject. I have had scores of letters. I have had cases more absurd and ridiculous than those he quoted, cases not only since the Military Service Act was passed, because I have had them during all the seven or eight months I have been at home, so that they are clearly not the result of compulsion, but of the urgent need for more men on the one side, coupled with the difficulties of recruiting and the inevitable tendency of recruiting officers and medical officers to try to make the best possible show and somehow make up our Army I would again urge on the War Office, which for the moment is not represented on the Front Bench, that they should get rid of the unfit men by using them to replace men in industry, men such as those my right hon. Friend is now calling up, and still more that the Government, of which the right hon. Gentleman is a member, should after all these months come to some clear decision as to what is wanted. We have been assured that there will be further discussion, that the questions are being considered, and that the needs of the War Office as regards men have to be reviewed again. We have been at war for something like twenty months. This particular problem in its most acute and urgent form has faced us for eight or nine months, and if only it had been faced a great many of the grievances of which complaint has been made by the last two speakers need not have occurred.

Why are things postponed for ever? I do not wish to speak unkindly. The right hon. Gentleman the other day accused me of speaking with a certain acerbity. If I have done so, I regret it, but I confess I am very much in earnest about these matters. I feel it is more important to try and bring the terribly serious truth of these things home to this House than to win what is called the ear of the House by a ready degree of urbane deference to the Government and the feelings of those hon. Members who may not agree with me. This indecision has become an absolutely destructive habit. It would seem as if the Government or the Prime Minister, who is really responsible in the last resort, dreads a decision and hates a decision more than he hates the Germans, or more than he dreads any blow they can deliver. In consequence the Government have put off this question from day to day, or from week to week, by a new story, a new pledge, or a new conference. It is like the lady in the "Arabian Nights," who put off her execution by telling a new and different story every night and leaving it unfinished. I would, without undue criticism, and not, I hope, in any offensive sense, urge upon the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues—I know he is as keen to win this War as any Member of this House, and I know it is difficult for a Government composed of men of widely-varying views to come to a quick agreement—that whatever views they may have upon the question of finding the necessary men to win the victory this year, it is really time to come to a clear, definite, and broad decision.

The hon. and gallant Member who has just spoken began his remarks by making very light of the cases which had been brought forward by the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden) and by the hon. Member for West Leeds (Mr. Edmund Harvey). I recollect that yesterday the President of the Local Government Board also expressed the view that, on the whole, the tribunals were doing their work in a way that was creditable to the country.

And that the cases in which hardship had occurred were, as I understood him, very few and unimportant.

I do not know how far he has at present inquired into the matter, but if he will take the trouble to make some inquiries locally as to what is going on, I do not say as regards all the cases that come before these tribunals but as regards the cases of the conscientious objectors, I think he will find that there is a very serious and important charge that is being brought against these tribunals on that head, and that it is a matter which does deserve the attention of the Government. I am not myself in any sense one of those who hold conscientious objections to war. At the beginning of the War I applied for a commission, but being forty-six years of age, and having no previous experience, I was considered unfit. I have taken part in recruiting meetings, and have done my best to get recruits on many occasions since the beginning of the War. Although I do not hold their views, from inquiries I have made I am convinced that these men have a very real right to a grievance as to the way in which they are being treated in a very large number of cases in all parts of the country by these tribunals. After all, these men are not criminals, they are not acting in any illegal way, but they are-bringing forward a claim which they have a perfect right to bring forward. They are claiming a right which this House has given them by Act of Parliament, and I submit that they ought to be treated, I will not say merely with more respect, but with more consideration and more justice than they are now being treated by these local tribunals. If the right hon. Gentleman will make inquiries, I believe he will find a large number of cases in all parts of the country where the tribunals are treating the conscientious objectors in a way which no fair-minded man could possibly approve. In many cases they are treating them with studied insult, they are refusing to hear their cases patiently, and in some cases refusing to hear them at all. They are acting illegally by telling the men they have no right to appeal, where in fact they have that right, and they are not merely giving decisions against the weight of evidence, but they are refusing these claims for exemption on grounds which are obviously unfair and unjust. The hon. Member for Blackburn has given a great many instances. I do not intend to weary the House by giving a long string of further instances, although I could do so and have a very large number of cases here in my hand. I can give them to the right hon. Gentleman to satisfy him of the truth of what I say, that in a very large number of cases the tribunals are not acting fairly, or in any just or judicial spirit towards these men.

There is a case here of a man who was brought before a tribunal on 9th March. He was at the moment out of work. He had just lost his job, and was looking out for another. He was a conscientious objector opposed utterly to all war. What did the chairman say?

I admit the right hon. Gentleman had already sent out a circular, but what I understood him to say was that on the whole they had a very unthankful task to perform, and they had done it with credit to themselves and advantage to the country.

"They are doing their work well and are holding the balance evenly, and I am not prepared to admit that the criticism addressed against the tribunals. … are based upon facts." [OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st March, col. 139.]

If the right hon. Gentleman will inquire he will find that the facts in these cases are absolutely overwhelming as regards the treatment of the conscientious objector, and I have sufficient faith in his fair-mindedness to believe that, if he will take the trouble to inquire into the cases, he will agree with our views. Here is a mother's letter in a case in which the local tribunal refused the right to appeal:

"I am a widow, and he is my only son, and has supported me since he has been able to work. He has been in a situation at Brighton. He sent in his claim for absolute exemption. On 29th February I received postcard from the Brighton local tribunal, saying, 'Your notice of claim has been received, and will have attention.' On 8th March he went to the Town Hall, Brighton, where he had been summoned. He has not been allowed to appeal, but was sent away to Chichester and had no chance to send a telegram to his employer."

Here is another case from Buxton on the same point:

"Before the Buxton Tribunal James —, aged twenty-four, claimed total exemption on conscientious grounds. The applicant saw on his form in big black letters, 'Not assented to.' The applicant at once said he would appeal and asked for a form of appeal. The military representative said, 'You cannot appeal except by permission of the tribunal.'"

That is directly contrary to the law, and it is very important that it should be said that these men have a right to appeal from the decision of a local tribunal. Then take the case of a refusal to give a man a hearing:

"At West Bromwich Tribunal on 8th March Francis Harper asked to make a statement. The right of making this statement was refused. The chairman said if he wanted to air his views he could hire the Town Hall and give the people a treat."

The same tribunal refused to hear a statement from Samuel Merthyr, of 4, Elwell Street, West Bromwich. The applicant insisted, or tried to insist, upon his right to make a statement. The chairman said if he insisted he would send for the police. A member of the tribunal said he had known the applicant for a number of years, and testified to the truth of his; case, and seeing that he could not be passed for a soldier, as he was a cripple, moved that he be exempted. The chairman said they had made it a rule to exempt conscientious objectors from combatant service only, and he would have to adhere to that rule. These are only just a few instances of many I could bring forward. What I want mostly to call attention to is the way in which these men are browbeaten, bullied, and deliberately insulted by local tribunals. It is doing a grave wrong to English justice, to the sense of fair play, and to the national conscience if you allow this sort of behaviour to go on in the case of conscientious objectors without any rebuke from the Government. I am perfectly certain every Member of the House will bear me out that letters and the reports in local papers show that in a large number of cases up and down the country the tribunals make it a practice to browbeat and insult men who come before them to claim exemption on conscientious grounds. Here is a case from the Keighley Rural Tribunal. Sydney Smith said he could not take, or be a party to taking, human life. He had held these convictions about four years.

"The Chairman: What would you do if a German attacked your mother?

The Applicant: I would get between the attacker and my mother, but in no circumstances would I take life to save her.

A Member: If the only way to protect your mother was to kill the German, would you still let him kill her?

The Applicant: Yes.

A Member: You ought to be shot."

The Chairman, or one of the members of the tribunal, went on to say, "Do you not think you are a coward and a cad?" The man said he was standing for his convictions.

"A Member: You would be standing for something else if I had my way."

The application was refused. You can see this sort of case reported in any local paper you take up. I made a few remarks in this House last week, and I have had letters sent to me by the score by people who describe the way in which they had been treated by these tribunals. I have had cases in the district where I live. Reference has already been made to the Oxford Tribunal. I live near Oxford, and I know something of what is going on there, because I read the local papers. I will refer to what is probably one of the hardest cases that has yet been brought to my notice, a case which has already been referred to, but which has since come before the Appeal Tribunal. I mean the case of a theological student, named Runacres, a candidate for ordination. This man is the son of a working man at Ipswich. By his own ability and hard work he has become a scholar of one of the colleges at Oxford, and he is expecting ordination this year. He is standing in June for Honours in the School of Theology. He is a member of Pusey House, which is practically a college for candidates for ordination. He came before the local tribunal with a letter from the pricipal of Pusey House, a Doctor of Divinity, whom I know very well, and who said this man was a perfectly sincere conscientious objector and ought to be exempted. He also had a letter from one of the Fellows of Pusey House, one of the tutors there, in the same sense, and he also had a letter from the Rev. Mr. Simpson, of Keble College, the examining chaplain to the Bishop of Southwell. He has a grant from the diocese of Southwell, where he is expecting to be ordained. He came with these testimonials, with these credentials, before the Oxford Local Tribunal. He is an honest man, and he said he had always held these views and was opposed to war in any shape or form. He holds these views very strongly. I have had letters from him, and some of my hon. Friends have seen them. At the first hearing a letter was read by the military representative, but the name of the writer was not given. It was, I believe, from a man who was a Fellow of the applicant's former college, a Fellow of Jesus College. The letter stated that the applicant was an objectionable man who had taken part in Socialist meetings, and he hoped he would not be exempted. The Oxford Local Tribunal, on the strength of this evidence, although no name was given and the man had no right to be cross-examined on it, because he had no means of knowing whether the letter was dictated by personal spite or what were the motives which dictated the letter, refused him any relief whatever. They absolutely refused to grant him any exemption. A few months hence, if he had been ordained, he would have been absolutely entitled to it. Because of this anonymous letter he was refused exemption. [An HON. MEMBER: "Did he ask for the name?"]

He asked for it at the time, but they declined to give it. The military representative said he had read the letter on condition that the name was not given. He gave the name to the members of the tribunal, but would not allow the name to be made public. This case came before the Appeal Tribunal, and it is important to note the result, because the President of the Local Government Board has continually said, "If these men are not being fairly treated by the local tribunals they can appeal, and the Appeal Tribunal will deal with them, I have no doubt, absolutely fairly." I will tell the House what happened when the case came before the Appeal Tribunal. After the report had been read from the local tribunal, the applicant was at once asked whether he belonged to any peace societies. He replied, "Yes," and stated that he belonged to the No-Conscription Fellowship and the Fellowship of Reconciliation. The question was then asked whether he had opposed recruiting and the applicant replied, "No." sub judice, he is being summoned by the military authorities and told he has got to go and serve with the Colours.

Again and again instances in which the Regulations are being set aside and in which the Act is being flouted by these tribunals have been brought before the President of the Local Government Board, but he simply shrugs his shoulders and says that it is rough justice that is being done, and that there is nothing particular to complain of. I do not want to detain the House by very many of these cases, because it is no use talking here. The President of the Local Government Board is not here. The Minister of Munitions is here, but I fear he is not going to do anything in the matter. If the Act is his Act, he ought to see that it is properly administered. If he would take some steps to protect conscientious objectors he would be doing a great deal of good to the cause in which he is interested, and in which I am interested, and that is in seeing that this War is carried to a successful conclusion with the consent and the support of the country. The way in which this Act is being administered is causing very grave discontent right through the country, a discontent which will go on growing. It is giving people a profound distrust of that English fair play and that English justice on which we prided ourselves in the past. It is making people feel what the military spirit is going to be when it is introduced into England, and it is making them understand already what militarism means and what Conscription means. The Government will be showing itself unworthy of the traditions of Government in this country, and Parliament will be showing itself unworthy of its own traditions of liberty and justice, if it allows this sort of thing to go on—if it does not see, and see quickly, that these men are treated with decent respect, that their cases are heard fairly, and that they get a fair chance of exemption in cases where their opinions—as I believe they are in the vast majority of cases—are honestly and sincerely held.

I do not propose to follow the example of previous speakers, who have put before the House such a large variety of these episodes, which must have been painful reading for every serious-minded man in this country, if they represent, as they have represented in many cases, the working of an Act over which this House spent so much careful thought, and about which I believe the President of the Local Government Board in his Regulations did his very utmost to see that it was worked fairly in the country. Of course, where such a large number of tribunals exist, and where, in some cases, unfortunately, they were appointed too much in a haphazard way, without, perhaps, a thorough appreciation of the serious duties involved, and of the general wide scope which they were called to judge of in their decisions, there would inevitably be a certain amount of abuse and a certain amount of miscarriage of justice. I do not pretend to say, in looking through, as I have done, a great number of local reports of local tribunals, that the fault has always been on the one side. Many objectors have been most foolish and ill-advised in the way they have presented their cases. Some of them, no doubt, were insincere, and by their action they compromised the action of the more serious ones. Therefore there has been painful reading on all sides, but the net result is that the country and the Government are rapidly being faced with the position which no serious politician can welcome.

The Regulations sent out by the Local Government Board were very carefully drawn up. If they had been perhaps not quite so voluminous or a little more practical in detail they might have been read more carefully by all the different members of the tribunals. I really pity any man, who has perhaps never considered a conscientious objection before, sitting to try to judge whether a man has a bonâ fide conscientious objection. The best thing that the Local Government Board could have done in the first instance, or could do even now, would have been to set half-a-dozen broad-minded men to draw up a series of half-a-dozen questions which the chairman of the tribunal should put to every witness in the first instance as to what his views were; first as to the fact whether he was a conscientious objector, then what proof he had shown of any sacrifice for conscience in his life, how long he had held those views, and if he could produce any evidence that before the War preferably, or at any rate before the 15th of August, he ever held those views. If those five points had been put judicially by the chairman to every witness before allowing all these irrelevances to take place, the tribunal would have had the opportunity of coming to a decision as to whether they thought the witness had substantiated his case. These questions might have been supplemented in turn by each member of the tribunal as in a committee upstairs. But there would have been all sorts of irrelevant questions shut out. To ask a man what he would do if his sister were insulted or if his mother were threatened, does not help a tribunal to judge whether a man has a conscience or not, nor does it help to decide whether that man can show any sacrifice which he has ever made or any restraint he has ever put upon himself for the sake of conscience, and especially as to what date these symptoms began to develop.

It is easy, perhaps, to be wise after the event, but events are not finished yet, and much can be done by immediate and prompt action if you provide a schedule or framework to allow the tribunal practically to go to work with; I think that the Local Government Board and the Government ought to have provided the tribunals with a more definite lead as to what they should do if they felt that the case was proved. I admit that absolute exemption should be given in very few cases, say cases of unfitness or some particular avocation which might have been scheduled as one in which absolute exemption might be given. Even if you had limited that, I believe that we should have had far more absolute exemptions given than have been given. But my second point is that the Government would have been well advised if they had given the tribunals an indication as to what they should do with the conscientious objector. From the practical point of view, I am going to contend that the Government would have been very well advised if they had fixed it, by no means confining it to the members of the Society of Friends, who have always taken the line that they do not wish any exceptional treatment for their body which is not allowed to equally conscientious members of other bodies of the community. A great number of these conscientious objectors object to the whole organisation of war. Rightly or wrongly they have got their objections, and it is no argument to say to them, "Others are to go to be shot for you." We have got to deal with it as a practical question.

My point is that it would be well if the Government could, even now at this late hour, see their way to inaugurate an organization which could deal with those convicted of conscientious objections who say that they object to joining the N.C.C., the new body which is a semi-military body, and which it is contemplated to send over the sea, and which, if sent over the sea, will cause a lot of wasteful expenditure for maintenance, transport, and the rest of it for very doubtful service to be got in return. My point is that you should take these men, as you have taken the volunteers for the last eighteen months in this country, and accept their willing service and see what you can put that service to from these ten thousand or it may be fifteen thousand conscientious objectors. I want not to put them to an unwilling service, where you try to find work for them at great expense, when you have lots of work for them in this country. The whole clamour in this country is shortage of labour. Why not make use of these men for civil labour of some sort? Why not set them in some places, if they are strong enough, to help in the unloading of ships in dock, and assist in relieving the congestion of transport whether by rail or by other transport in this country, or to assist in civil administration and in the utility services. The Board of Trade can give the House a list which would easily absorb ten times more than the largest number of conscientious objectors which you would get. These tribunals should be called first to decide whether a man has a conscientious objection, then whether it is an objection to bearing arms only, and whether he would accept non-combatant service, say, in the Army Service Corps or in some other capacity at the front, or whether he would not take a military oath, as many will not do, but yet is willing to make some sacrifice for the country by doing other work. I believe that, in spite of all the ridicule poured upon these men in the Courts and in the Press, many of them are burning with an earnest desire, a desire as earnest as any recruited soldier, to do something for their country if only they could do it without violating their consciences. I believe that it is up to the Government to find them an opportunity, even now, of doing so. I do not say leave them in their present employment. Take them away, give them less wages, or give them no wages at all, but give them some service, and let them show by the mere fact of transplantation that they are prepared to sacrifice something for the sake of their country.

I desire to support warmly what my right hon. Friend has just said. I am extremely glad that the Minister of Munitions is here, because I am perfectly certain that he has very considerable sympathy with the difficulty which we are discussing at the present time. He has painted in more glowing colours than my right hon. Friend what he hopes will result from this War. He hopes by this War to get rid of war. And I want him to remember that if this Act had been in force at the time of the Boer War, and he had been younger and a single man—I should not wish him to be single—but if he had been in that position he would have had to go before one of these tribunals. I am perfectly certain that he has deep sympathy not only with the religious con- scientious objector, but with the man who really feels that he cannot support this War. I know that my right hon. Friend feels sympathy with that point. I have read a large amount of the evidence that has been given before these tribunals, and I wish to say that I do not think that the type of man who does not wish to become a soldier is really getting fair play before those bodies. There have been cases where the members of the tribunal said that if the applicant had been a member of the Society of Friends, "We would have exempted you, but you are a Socialist and we do not believe that your claim is genuine." I do want my right hon. Friend to help us to meet those cases; I want him to realise that those of us who feel strongly about this matter, who are conscientious objectors, have tried to be fair in connection with the Act. We have had the greatest difficulty in trying to persuade some men to go before the tribunals; we said to them that the Government had met us fairly, had tried to meet us fairly, that the Bill was going through the House, that the Regulations of the right hon. Gentleman, the President of the Local Government Board, were fair, and that his letter to the tribunals was just, and we pleaded with them to go before the tribunals, saying that they would get justice. Now those men turn upon us and they say, "We followed your advice and the result is we cannot get fair play."

I understand perfectly that in a time of war like this it is extremely difficult for many of us to be judicial. I understand perfectly the feeling of some members of the tribunal when they find people who come up and state a view which they cannot understand, and who, because of that view, cannot accept any service. But, after all, the Act was passed to meet genuine cases of conscientious objection, and whatever may be the view of a man, if that view is genuine, I am sure that the Government desires it to be met. I want to refer to one or two cases which I think are of the most serious type of cases—the cases where the tribunal admits absolutely that the man has a conscientious objection, and then goes on to say that they cannot allow the exemption. Here is a case of a teacher. I will not read the discussion which took place; it was before the Ledbury Tribunal. At the end of the conversation between the chairman and Mr. Watkin the latter said, "Gentlemen, do you believe my conviction is sincere?" The chairman said at once, "Oh, yes, but I do not believe in it." Then all the members of the tribunal voted against any exemption being given. That man had sacrificed something to go to the school to teach, and it really does seem to me a travesty of justice that a man who has sacrificed something in that way should be brought before a tribunal, and that then such a decision should be given. That man feels that he has been unfairly dealt with. The tribunal admitted that the conscientious objection was sincere, but because the chairman did not like his view then he was not allowed exemption. There was a case which came before the Scarborough Rural Tribunal, where two brothers were asking for exemption. At the end of a long discussion, which I will not read, one of the brothers offered to bring forward evidence of the canvass card used in connection with the registration, and the chairman said, "There is no need; we believe all that you have said." His case was established, but at once they absolutely refused exemption.

It is cases like these which are making these extraordinary difficulties for us in trying to convince these people that justice will be done in those tribunals. I have been connected for eighteen months with the Friends' Ambulance Unity, and I have myself interrogated hundreds of men before they went out to France, and I wish to say to my right hon. Friend that these men are not cowards. The kind of complaint made by these men to me when I was in France two or three times is this, "We wish you to get the authorities to let us have more dangerous work." Again and again have I heard that from these men, and, unless something is done to meet those cases of injustice of which I have given examples, and similar cases, what I am afraid of is that a really most difficult situation will come before the Government. When these men are called cowards and shirkers, as they have been for months past, it almost stimulates them to show that they are not, and I am afraid that the very fact that so much has been said about these men being shirkers and cowards is going to make the position extraordinarily difficult for the Government when they come to deal with them, because they are willing to die for their faith, as other men are willing to die for their faith and are doing it in such large and generous measure at the present time. I believe a great deal of the difficulty could be got over if only the Government would act on the suggestions made by my right hon. Friend (Mr. J. W. Wilson) a few minutes ago. You can get from these men service, most valuable service, for the State if you go the right way about it; but if you trample on their conscience, if you say that though they are sincere in what they say yet you cannot grant exemption, then you are going to have a most serious position in this country, and are really going, it seems to me, to destroy the harmony and unity which has been shown in such large measure in the country during the last eighteen months.

I intervene in this Debate because of the immediate reference made to me by my hon. Friend, and also because of the fact that I was very much interested in the speech made by my right hon. Friend opposite, whose suggestions were supported by my hon. Friend the Member for York. It was the first speech, if I may say so—and I have listened to a great deal of this Debate—which appreciated the fact that the difficulty is a difficulty for the tribunals as well as a difficulty for the conscientious objectors. The first difficulty is of course the difficulty of discriminating between the person who has a real conscientious objection and the person who merely makes use of that as a cloak for cowardice. In several cases, and I have read some of the cases, it is perfectly clear from the evidence that the person is not a conscientious objector at all except in the sense that he has an objection to going into the firing line. That is not what is meant by conscientious objection. I will give one or two cases. Take the case of a man—I saw it in the papers—who joined the Territorials, but did not volunteer for Imperial service. When he came before the Court he said he had a conscientious objection to fighting. That is a perfect sham, and that is the sort of case that is really doing harm to the conscientious objector and discrediting him wholly. Take another case of which I heard, of a man who occupies a first-class position. There were a number of men before him, and in the ordinary course he would not have got it, but a number of the men in front volunteered to fight in our Army and he got the post. No one had ever known that he had any conscientious objections on the subject of war, but when he was called upon to join the Army he suddenly discovered that he was a conscientious objector. I think the tribunal had some sort of right to feel that that was not a bonâ-fide case. My hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden) in the course of the Debate to-day spoke of a man who was engaged in munition works. I asked him, "Was he making ammunition?" and he said "Yes." He had no conscientious objection to making ammunition for the purpose of being fired. I asked the question two or three times.

I think if the hon. Gentleman will look at the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow he will find that the hon. Member for Blackburn said "Yes." If the hon. Member for Blackburn were here and said that that was not the case I would accept his word. Take a case of that kind. Here is a man who has no conscientious objection to make shells for others to use and to go into the firing line, but the moment he is called upon to go and fire them he suddenly finds he is a conscientious objector. Tribunals are perfectly entitled to brush aside cases of that kind and to say, "I cannot believe it is a conscientious objection, but it is an objection you have to face danger for your country." The difficulty is a very serious difficulty. That is one reason why I liked to hear what my right hon. Friend (Mr. Wilson) said just now about having some test, and I agree—better tests than some that are applied. The hon. Member for Blackburn and other hon. Members have mentioned questions which have been put by certain members of Courts.

I have been in my place since Question Time, and was only absent for a few minutes. I understand the right hon. Gentleman said that I admitted to-day that a man to whom I referred was making ammunition.

I asked the hon. Gentleman a question then, and I ask him now. A controlled establishment, of course, is an establishment which is working for the Ministry of Munitions or the Admiralty, and therefore it is contributing to the material of the War. I asked the hon. Gentleman whether that was a controlled establishment which was making war material.

That I do not know, but the man was working in that place before it became a controlled establishment, and therefore he was not responsible for the fact that the production in the place had been placed under the Ministry of Munitions from the ordinary management.

Really I ask whether I was not justified in what I said. Here is an establishment which, before it became a controlled establishment, was presumably engaged in some sort of work which was a work of peace. It suddenly becomes an establishment for the making of war materials, and when that change took place this gentleman did not object— not in the least.

I am sorry to have to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but that is precisely what he did do. I said his employer gave him the opportunity of continuing, but he left the place. That is my point. One member of the tribunal said, "Here is a case of a genuine conscientious objection." But the chairman said, "No, we will not give any exemption." My point is that the man refused when the establishment was transferred to the Ministry of Munitions any longer to take part in the work, thus proving his conscientious objection.

The hon. Gentleman has now made it quite clear, and that is not a case that illustrates the point I am making. I fully admit that, and I am very glad of the opportunity of doing so. The other two cases which I mentioned are cases which could not possibly be said to justify a claim of conscientious objection. There is the man in the Territorial Force who, the moment he is asked to join the Army, says, "I have a conscientious objection to fighting." He is a man who has been trained for the purpose of fighting our enemies, and he has been learning to shoot. The other case was a case, too, where I think the tribunal had a perfect right to express very grave doubts as to whether the objection was not an objection on the ground that the man had a very good post because other men had gone to the Front, and he was not prepared to give it up. Therefore it is a very difficult position in which to put the tribunals. I agree with my right hon. Friend that the questions he suggests to put to men of this kind in order to elicit whether they had ever expressed views of this kind before, or made any sacrifices for conscience, are questions which would be perfectly relevant. My hon. Friend who spoke last pointed out that at one time I was a conscientious objector, and that I had a very strong objection to a certain war in which we were engaged. So I had.

That brings me to the next point which was put by my right hon. Friend, and I am very glad he has put it, and that is, What are you to do with the conscientious objector? My hon. Friends have given quite a number of cases where they say that the tribunals have not administered the Act fairly. It is almost inevitable when you have got tribunals improvised in a hurry, as my right hon. Friend candidly admitted, that you will get occasional cases where perhaps the law is not administered satisfactorily. That is unfortunate, but I think my hon. Friends will be rendering better service to the conscientious objectors if they pursue the line my right hon. Friend stated, by putting forward suggestions as to the services they think these men can render to the country, because after all this is a very great emergency. Nobody can doubt, whatever the origin of the War, that the country is in trouble. Nobody can doubt that we are fighting for our very lives. Nobody can doubt that the whole destiny of this country will depend very largely upon what happens in the course of the next few months, or perhaps the next year or two. I think we are entitled, as a Government, to ask that every citizen should contribute something to the struggle. I have conscientious objectors in my own Department. They are very able members of the Society of Friends, and very helpful they are. They are not actually making munitions, but there is other work, such as that connected with the condition of the workers in the workshops. There are men who would rather be shot than take a rifle and fire it, but still they feel there is work which is perfectly consistent with conscience and with the very deep-rooted conviction which they have on the subject of peace and war, and which at the same time is very helpful to their country and to the cause of humanity. They are helping to humanise the workshops. There are other men en- gaged in the work of liquor control, and so on. Take the point put by my right hon. Friend. He said that conscientious objectors might consistently with their views enlist in the Royal Army Medical Corps. Why not? My hon. Friend asked what would have happened to me if I had been recruited in the Boer War. I would not have hesitated for a moment to take part in helping to cure the wounded. What is there inconsistent in a man who objects to war doing his best to cure the wounded, to repair the damage of war, and to see that the hurt inflicted on humanity is as little as possible? If a conscientious objector tells me that he objects to that, I say without any hesitation that in a case of that kind the real reason is not conscience, but fear.

I gave it as an instance of what many would not object to, but some would.

Why should anyone object to it? If a man has fallen, why should any man object to curing his wounds?

The man objects to taking any part in the system under which men are wounded and will have nothing to do with it at all. That is the point of conscience. It may be wrong, but there it is.

I cannot imagine it. I think that in a case of that kind the tribunal would be entitled at once to say, "That is not a real bonâ-fide objection." That is not helping the War; it is helping to repair the damage and the hurt of war. But I am only giving that as an illustration. There is a good deal of work which can be done by men who conscientiously object to shoulder arms. In the old days the conscientious objector was very easily marked. He belonged practically to one society. I agree that that society does not now include everybody who objects. Not in the least. There are men who do not accept the Christian faith at all who are among the conscientious-objector followers of Tolstoy. But, after all, I think the tribunals are entitled, when the nation is fighting for its life, to search out rigidly and relentlessly the motives of men when they come forward and plead that they should not take their part in the struggle. They are not merely within their rights, but they are exercising a duty cast upon them by Parliament. Whether in every case the questions put have been perfectly relevant or strictly wise—that is more than you can expect from any tribunal. I have heard of judges putting very stupid and irrelevant questions, and they are trained men.

Even Members of Parliament very often, and I would not always guarantee that the answers are altogether relevant.

We are all human, judges and Members of Parliament alike. Therefore it is no use quoting cases of extravagances of this kind. My hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn had a sheaf of them, and he apologised to the House of Commons stating that he would not weary the House by reading them all. I should say that there were a hundred or two. [An HON. MEMBER: "More than that!"] When you are dealing in a hurry with thousands, tens of thousands, and scores of thousands of cases, you cannot hope that every case will be dealt with wholly satisfactorily, or that every question will be strictly relevant. You must take the thing as a whole. As to the suggestions put forward by my right hon. Friend, I undertake that the Government will consider them very carefully, and they will welcome any further suggestions—suggestions with regard to the kind of questions which can be put, and also with regard to the service to which bonâ-fide conscientious objectors can be put. The Government will welcome suggestions of that character put forward with a view to enabling the Act to work—because, after all, it is an Act of Parliament now, and it is a question of administering an Act of Parliament. My hon. Friends objected to it, they made their protest, but still it is an Act of Parliament, and no one can doubt that it has the sanction of the vast majority of the nation. A good democrat like my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn will, I am certain, accept the verdict of the majority in a case of this kind.

I agree. Therefore, what is really wanted is co-operation in carrying it out. If there were co-operation, if it were really noted that there was no encouragement for the mere shirker, and that this was not being made a cloak for the man who did not want to contribute his share, I am sure it would be very helpful. If, also, there were the feeling that the real bonâ-fide conscientious objector would do his very best to assist the country in its trouble, and that the problem was approached, not merely by the Government, but by those who speak on behalf of the conscientious objector, from that point of view, I think the difficulty would be solved in a way to avoid trouble, which everyone wants to do. We do not want to exaggerate this for the benefit of the enemy. This is reported, and reported very fully, and exaggerated, in Germany. To a certain extent it encourages the Germans exactly in the same way as what we hear from Germany encourages us. Therefore, if my hon. Friends will approach the matter from the point of seeking to co-operate with the Government, rather than to find fault, I believe great service will be done.

Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves the House would he say a word on the very important point I raised with regard to the death sentence?

I do not believe the death penalty has been inflicted at all in this country, not even upon those who are under discipline. I have been making inquiries. It is inflicted only in the presence of the enemy. The death penalty is never inflicted in this country upon soldiers who voluntarily place themselves under discipline, and it is a surprise to me to hear that hon. Members are under any misapprehension on that subject.

May I, by permission, say that since I spoke I have been to the Library and looked at the Army Regulations? They are very elaborate. Scores of offences are set forth, and it seems to me that there is one under which the conscientious objector who had been refused exemption could have the death penalty inflicted upon him, and that is refusal to obey any order given to him. It seems to me that if these men are forced against their will to undertake this service, and they refuse to obey, they can be shot. I want to know if that is so.

Those who have taken part in this Debate must, I am sure, have recognised the sympathetic spirit in which my right hon. Friend the Minister of Munitions has dealt with the case of the conscientious objector. But the case which has been put before him is, in the main, that of the administration of the Act. The Act in express terms has recognised the right of the conscientious objector to object not only to combatant service, but to object to all service.

I think my right hon. Friend was, to some extent, in error in suggesting that the conscientious objector was only entitled under the terms of the law to object to combatant service. Personally, I am not a conscientious objector, and consequently while the Debates upon the Military Service Bill were in progress I never offered any criticisms on the provisions relating to the conscientious objector. Undoubtedly, however, while the Bill was passing through Parliament provision was made not only for exemption from combatant service, but also for absolute exemption. It is, however, the case that in a large number of tribunals we have found the members misinterpreting the Act; not only so, but we have had the military representatives advising the tribunals that the correct interpretation of the Act was that the tribunals should only allow exemption from combatant service. I have, for example, two questions on the Paper for to-morrow relating to the procedure of the Glasgow Tribunal. At the Glasgow Tribunal on Thursday of last week this question was raised, and the military representative on that occasion said: should take non-combatant service. I, not being a conscientious objector, do not precisely appreciate the point of view of the conscientious objector. But if Parliament has made provision for the conscientious objector, obviously it ought to allow him to have the view which his conscience compels him to take. If his conscience prevents him from taking even non-combatant service, surely, as Parliament has allowed him to be exempt even for non-combatant service, the tribunals and the military representatives ought to be instructed to carry out that view.

I raised this point yesterday, and I am glad to say that the President of the Local Government Board then admitted that the case which I put forward was the correct representation of the Statute, and of the instructions which he himself had issued. He said then—I am not quite sure of his exact words—that he either had issued a circular, or was issuing a circular, calling the attention of the tribunals to the correct interpretation of the Act, and to the instructions which he had already issued. I should be very glad if my right hon. Friend, in the course of this Debate, will indicate whether these instructions have now been circulated, and whether they will have reached the tribunals. In the second place, will he say whether they have been circulated not only to the local tribunals, but also to the appeal tribunals, because it is obviously a very important matter to men whose cases have already been decided in the local tribunals that the appeal tribunals, who may now be called upon to decide upon these cases, should have their attention called to this new circular of the President of the Local Government Board. This is of the more importance because the president of one of the appeal tribunals, who is a very high legal authority, has, through the Press, given an interpretation of the law which is in direct contradiction to that of the President of the Local Government Board—or at all events it is not quite in accordance with it, for he takes a different view of the intention of the Legislature. The immediate receipt, therefore, of this new circular by the appeal tribunals is of very considerable importance. It is this attitude of the tribunals which has to a large extent caused the difficulty.

There is another matter which has given rise to a large amount of dissatisfaction, and that is that members of the tribunals have openly flouted the position of the conscientious objector. After all, these tribunals have been set up for the purpose of exercising at least quasi judicial functions—I do not want to state it too high. We have had cases in which members of the tribunals have openly not only poured contempt upon the spurious conscientious objector—I think everybody in the House agrees that no sympathy whatever should be offered to such cases as my right hon. Friend quoted in his speech. [An HON. MEMBER: "There are others!"] I quite agree there are others. But the time the Bill was passed was the time that we should, so far as possible, see that the benefits of its provisions were confined to bonâ fide conscientious objectors, and that there should be no manufacturers of conscientious objectors. In this respect I am glad to be at one with both my hon. Friends. I could give an example from Scotland. In the Govan Tribunal on the 9th of this month, I think, one member of the tribunal, a bailie—and of course a bailie is a very important person in Scotland—said that conscientious objection was all bunkum. This was said before deciding cases in which conscientious objection was involved. I think my right hon. Friend will agree that a man who expresses such an opinion is not qualified to decide judicially upon the objections raised by a conscientious objector. I think that it might be made clear that men who hold these views have no right to be members of the tribunals to decide these cases. If a member of a tribunal has openly expressed a view of that kind he should at least withdraw from the tribunal when conscientious objections are being decided and allow somebody who is willing to treat the matter judicially to take his place.

It is somewhat unfortunate that this question of conscientious objection was left to the local tribunal, because, after all, the question of conscientious objection is entirely different in kind and character from the other questions which come before these tribunals. When the Government decided upon the local tribunal, it was because it was thought that men in the locality were best fitted to decide upon questions of national interest and upon the domestic difficulties of men claiming exemption. It is obviously true that men with local knowledge are the best qualified to decide on questions of that kind, but local knowledge is not the kind of quailfi- cation which is required in relation to this matter of conscientious objection. And I felt at the time that, for the purpose of determining that question, a special tribunal would have been far better, and would have given far greater satisfaction; but it was, of course, impossible to put in such views in the very short time we had for discussing the Military Service Bill. However, I hope the President of the Local Government Board will be able to say, before we depart from this subject this evening, first of all whether that circular has been issued to the Appeal Tribunal, and whether those whose cases have been determined under a misapprehension in the local tribunals will be entitled to the benefit of the instructions in the new circular.

I wish to respond to the spirit of the speech that was made by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Munitions a few moments ago, and I am quite sure that my right hon. Friend will acquit me personally from any desire to do anything except to help the Government in the matter of this serious and vital difficulty of the conscientious objector. I am quite sure that that applies also to those Members of this House with whom I have the privilege of acting on this question. The right hon. Gentleman realised in his speech the gravity of the problem, and I am not surprised that he showed his sense of the gravity of that problem, because it is not a new problem to the right hon. Gentleman, or to the President of the Local Government Board, or to any Member of this House. One of the most striking speeches, and I think, too, one of the gravest speeches to which it has been my privilege to listen during the few years I have sat in this House, was the speech delivered in uniform by the Noble Lord the Member for Newton (Viscount Wolmer), when this subject was being discussed during the passage of the Military Service Bill. The Noble Lord frankly acknowledged the justice of the claim for the exemption of the conscientious objector, and reminded us that the House had always had to recognise the existence of the conscientious objector. He pointed out we had to recognise him in connection with the conscientious objectors in Ulster, and that throughout all our history we had recognised the justice of the claim of the conscientious objector. I am only sorry myself that our memories are so short, and that the very men who, a few short months ago, were pleading for justice to other conscientious objectors, are now inclined to belittle the claims of those who have conscientious objections to assisting in warfare.

I want to address myself particularly to one or two points which were raised by the Minister of Munitions, and I want particularly to refer to the remarks that he made about those conscientious objectors who object to medical service. I think there was some slight confusion in his reference to the attitude of those who take that view. It would be deplorable if the impression went abroad that those who cannot take service in the Royal Army Medical Corps cannot do so because of inhumanity. That would be most deplorable. The sonscientious objector who cannot accept service in the Royal Army Medical Corps cannot do so because, if he did, he would be assisting in the military machine as a military machine. Those who take that view—most of them, and I would say all of them—would be only too ready, outside the military machine, without assisting in the prosecution of war as warfare, to do all that they could do to aid the victims and to alleviate suffering caused by war. I think it very important that that distinction should be kept in mind, and that the objection of the conscientious objector is an objection to anything to assist in promoting the efficiency or in helping along the machinery of war. With regard to the rest of the speech of the Minister of Munitions, as I say, he showed, and I am personally very grateful for it, an appreciation of this great problem, and if his words mean anything, as I am sure they do, they show that the Government had an open mind with regard to suggestions which could be made to meet the problem. And I would very earnestly ask the President of the Local Government Board to consider the various constructive suggestions that have been thrown out during the course of this Debate, and which, if acted upon, can yet reach a satisfactory end of this great national difficulty. But may I ask my right hon. Friend to observe that, if the difficulty is to be solved, it is of no use leaving the matter entirely in the hands of the War Office and to the machinery of the War Office. May I illustrate my meaning? Many conscientious objectors have been refused exemption from combatant service. Other conscientious objectors have been granted exemption from combatant service, and, if I rightly understand the replies that have been given in answer to questions in this House, those conscientious objectors who have been granted exemption from combatant service are to be placed as a body in this new, so-called, Non-Combatant Corps. The surprising result follows that those objectors who have been refused admission to the Medical Corps and to the other non-combatant sections of the Army will be placed instead in this newly formed and very sinister Non-Combatant Corps, with the vague threats which are in the background. I beg the right hon. Gentleman to consider this point, and to see that to press forward this Corps, and to allow this matter to be settled by the War Office acting on these lines, will not lead to a solution of the difficulty.

I would suggest what we rather require is a consideration of the problem by the various Departments of the Government concerned, not only by the War Office, but by the Local Government Board and by the Home Office, with a view of seeing how the provisions of the Act which dealt with alternative service could be carried out in connection with the problem. I say to my right hon. Friend that there is a great volume of alternative service, dangerous, difficult and arduous, yet very necessary in the national interests, which many of those conscientious objectors would most gladly perform without payment of any kind. I think we should indeed be foolish if in the panic of the War we refused to consider moderate measures for dealing with this question. I hope my right hon. Friend will not think I am suggesting that he has shown any lack or absence of a desire to consider suggestions; I am quite sure the contrary is true, for I was impressed with the fairness and, if I may say so, with the wisdom of the circular which he issued to the local tribunals. We have to face the fact, which I think is plain and which is proved, that the local tribunals, in a large number of cases, have failed to carry out the deliberate provisions introduced into the Military Service Act to deal with the problems of the conscientious objector. That being so it is for the Government in its collective wisdom to devise measures which will solve this very grave difficulty.

The subject to which I wish to call attention is the action of the War Office in regard to what I conceive to be a violation of the law. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman who represents the War Office will be able to say anything about it because it lies rather outside his Department, but I hope he may be able to tell the House something in regard to the action of the War Office in regard to this matter. Under the Territorial Forces Act of 1907, Part II., Clause 7, Sub-Section (4), it is provided: That the Regulations and Orders to be issued by the War Office shall not transfer a man in the Territorial Force

"( d ) When the corps of a man of the Territorial Force includes any battalion or other body of the Regular Forces, authorise him to be posted without his consent to that battalion or body."

The case I wish to mention is one which concerns my own Constituency in the first place, but it has also got an aspect of general interest to the country. The 1/4th Cameron Highlanders, which has won deathless renown in Flanders, and at the great battle of Loos it took and held the famous Hill 70, only retiring when it failed to receive support through defective staff work, is now under the orders of the War Office to be merged into the Regular regiment of that corps, the 1st Cameron Regiment, which is one of the battalions of the Regular Army. This action of the War Office, I need not say, has excited great indignation in the county of Inverness, because that county and the borough of Inverness take an immense pride in the performance of that Territorial Regiment, and it grieves them to think that its identity should disappear and that it should be merged in this other regiment, however brilliant the 1st Camerons may be. A consultation has taken place on this subject between the War Office authorities and the county association, but the latter association have represented their case so far without success. It appears that the 1/4th Camerons is to be used purely as furnishing drafts for the 1st Regular Battalion, and I do hope that it may be possible for the War Office to change its view and re-establish the identity of this regiment.

I was pleased to hear the announcement made by the Government that more men can be spared from agriculture for the Army. We require more men, and therefore it is incumbent on every industry to spare as many as possible, in order to assist in the great national struggle. I am confident that the farmers of this country will act loyally, and recognise that they have responsibilities in this matter to free as many men as possible from their work. We have lately had much confusion and unrest caused by the variety of announcements which have been made as to the men who ought to be enlisted. One day we had an announcement made by Lord Derby, then we had one from Lord Selborne, and one from the War Minister, all of which have led to a great feeling of unrest and confusion. I am glad to see that the Government have within the last few days had a conference of all the interested Departments and that an authoritative statement is to be made which any man can understand. My object in rising is to bring forward two points. At this time, when men are so scarce in the agricultural industry, I think we ought to do as much as we possibly can to help the farmers in the country. I think there are one or two things which if done would have that effect and yet would in no way interfere with the getting of men for the Army. In the first place, I would suggest that an authoritative statement should be made by the Government so that those Irish labourers who every year come over to this country to do various works should understand that they are not under the Military Service Act and that compulsion will not be brought to bear upon them. I think if the right hon. Gentleman would make sure that a statement of that nature was given out by the Government which these men in Ireland would understand, and which would be brought home to them in their own homes, that much would be done to enable farmers to get that labour which always was so essential and which now, owing to the great diminution of other men who used to be available, is more than ever essential.

The other point I would invite the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Board to keep in mind is this: The right hon. Gentleman knows the position of agriculture well, and therefore I do not need to say many words on that subject There are some men engaged in the industry who are absolutely indispensable. In Scotland—and I speak particularly for Scotland—those men are foremen, or grieves as they are called, shepherds, cattlemen, and regular horsemen. The tribunals, when men of those classes come up before them, ought to go upon the principle that only where the employer cannot find an alternative should the man get exemption. It is impossible for the industry to be carried on if those regular men are taken away, but it is only right that the employer should take every step possible to find alternative men so that as many men as possible can be made free for the national cause. The tribunals, therefore, should investigate very carefully, and only if the employer cannot find an alternative workman should they grant exemption. Women labour has been recommended by the President of the Board of Agriculture as being a form of labour which could be largely increased and developed. I have no doubt that women may render very good service indeed to agriculture, but, as regards Scotland, we have always had women working to a very large extent in the fields, and I do not think there is any chance, therefore, of any increase in that direction. I do not think the farmers of Scotland can fall back, as it were, upon getting a supply of women labour to the same extent as the farmers in England undoubtedly can. I raise those two points because I am sure that if attention is paid to them the difficulty of growing and producing crops this year will be lessened, and a practical benefit will accrue to our farmers, whom I am perfectly sure are anxious and ready to do the best they can under the trying circumstances in which they are placed.

It is necessary that I should reply, as briefly as I can, to the points that have been raised in the course of this Debate, and, notwithstanding my experience over so many years, and especially recently, I am still hopeful that one or two announcements that I have to make to the House may render unnecessary some of the speeches which I have no doubt are ready for delivery, but which, I think, will be found not to be required when the attitude and action of the Government are announced. With regard to the two proposals that have just come from my hon. Friend opposite (Mr. H. Hope), I think our answer to both will be satisfactory to him. We only heard this morning for the first time that there is a doubt in the country as to the position of labourers coming over from Ireland. The position of Ireland under the Military Service Act is well known; the whole history of it will be remembered by the House; and the answer to the hon. Member is in the affirmative. The position of these men is absolutely secure and clear. Any Irish labourers coming over for employment, either on farms or in any other capacity, will not come under the Military Service Act and will not be liable to be called upon for service. There is, therefore, really no doubt. The statement has been made more than once. If it requires repetition I make it again now, and, if necessary, we will certainly make some announcement in some general form that will convey this information. With regard to the second suggestion of my hon. Friend as to the workers on the farms, there again I am in full agreement with the statement of the case as he presented it. I am one of those who believe that there are yet on the land here and there a great many men who can with advantage be spared for military service. The cases vary enormously. In some parts of the country the labourers have gone almost to the last man, and their places have been taken by older men, not as yet to any very large extent by women. There are, however, some parts where this has not been the case. What we wish is not so much that attention should be directed to the foremen or the grieves to whom my hon. Friend referred, or the shepherds, or the cowmen, but that the tribunals should know that it is their duty only to release men if they are necessary for the proper cultivation of the land, when, as my hon. Friend says, every effort has been made by the employer to find some substitute, and when that effort has failed. That is exactly the attitude which the Government are taking up. Therefore, so far as those two questions are concerned, I think my answer will satisfy my hon. Friend.

May I deal with two points which have been raised in connection with military matters. There was the question of the unfit men. I have spoken now on this question very often during the last few days, and I confess I am distressed to find that there are still so many cases of men who are manifestly unsuitable for service being enlisted. I have discussed this matter with my Noble Friend the Secretary of State, with the Chief of Staff, with the Adjutant-General, and with other officials at the War Office, and I know that most explicit instructions have been issued and that every efiort has been made to stop this most undesirable state of things. In some cases men who are not fit for active service, but who are required for the other work connected with the Army which is always done by enlisted soldiers and which therefore involves no displacement of ordinary labour, are being enlisted in the ordinary course, but that does not in any sense justify the enlistment of men who are so unfit for service as really to be not worth taking, from the physical point of view, even for non-combatant duty. I will bring the matter again to the notice of the officials of the War Office, and in one way or another this most undesirable practice certainly must be stopped.

With regard to the very interesting speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for South Birmingham (Captain Amery)—who was good enough to extend to me the olive branch, which I gladly accept—I do not think that he really does the Government quite justice. I am not concerned to defend this Government in particular. I have been a member of Governments now for more than thirty years, and I have always been under the impression that one of the reasons why Governments existed was that the House of Commons and writers in the newspapers and the public generally should have somebody whom they could always attack whatever is going on, and whatever the difficulties were, whether they were private or public difficulties. Of course in a time of war naturally the criticism is more general. I would be the last person in the world to suggest that that criticism springs from any other desire than to see our country triumphant and to see that the work of the country is properly done. But in all this criticism, interesting and powerful though it is, are we not a little bit inclined to lose sight of the really wonderful record of which this country can boast to-day, the record of what it has done since the first week of August, 1914? It is an almost incredible story, and really this work could not have been accomplished if it were true that we had failed to take a prescient view of the needs and possibilities of the country. In what have we failed?

I know the hon. Baronet is one of our most persistent critics. No doubt if he had been in office everything would have been very different. But when he says "Too late," am I not entitled to ask whether what we have done, whether it be in the provision of soldiers in the field or in the keeping going of all our national industries, or in the control of the sea, or in the assistance we have given to other countries—am I not at all events justified in saying that the part we have already played is one of which we have every reason to be proud, and that it is a part which has been played with the most tremendous advantage not only to our Allies, but to Europe and the world? Am I ask- ing too much of the Government which I have the honour to represent when I ask that what we have done should be regarded as an earnest of the fact that we are doing our best, and that we have not altogether failed in doing our duty by the country for whose fortunes we are for the moment responsible? My hon. Friend (Captain Amery) indicated that we do not look and have not been looking forward enough. That is a very easy criticism to make, if the hon. Gentleman will forgive me for saying so. He says we postpone our decisions.

I honestly am very much surprised that the hon. Baronet opposite should cheer that particular criticism and that particular part of it, for nobody knows more than he of one our great national industries—the coal industry. I appeal to all conversant with the history of our industries generally, and who know especially their history during this War, is it not true that we have been able, in these last few weeks, to do what we could not possibly have done at the beginning of the War, or indeed in any early stage of the War, with regard to our industries? Do not those who know our industries and who are conversant with the difficulties with which they are confronted, conversant with the difficulties of their maintenance, know that as day follows day we find ourselves in a position to take steps to limit and redistribute labour, and to make arrangements which, in the early days of the War, would have been absolutely impossible? That is not because we postpone decisions which are of national advantage to be arrived at to-day. You must watch these great national matters as they move steadily on from day to day, and then you can from time to time do your work far better and far more easily than if you assume that by an immediate decision you are going to settle everything for all time, and make provision which will be in the interest of the country from a military point of view, but which I venture to suggest may not be so, because the interests of the different trades and industries appear to be much greater. For the last few months in the matter of labour we have been doing everything we can to release it. We have found that we can release from agriculture, and as I told the House yesterday from other industries, a much larger proportion of the men. But it is only as we go on that we learn by experience the proportion of men that can with safety be released. I can assure my hon. Friend that day by day—and in this I speak from personal experience, as I have been engaged on this work for some months as a member of the Cabinet charged with the special duty—I can assure my hon. Friend, and I can assure the House, that it is not carelessness or negligence or indifference on our part, but that we do most carefully make estimates, from very accurate knowledge, of our arrangements in regard to providing all the men we can first for the Army, because we believe if our Army is not able to protect our national interests it is idle to maintain it, and secondly for our national defence, and we are doing everything we can to estimate the capacity of the country so that our great national industries may be kept going. My hon. Friend need be under no misgiving on that point. We have been all of us doing our best, and while I welcome the criticism addressed to us to-night, while I welcome criticism from any quarter—from inside the House or outside—welcoming that criticism, as heartily as I do, and believing that it is good for the Government because it spurs it and encourages it, I do deprecate, and I say it here as I have said it elsewhere, I do deprecate attacks, whether it be in the newspapers or elsewhere, which hold up my colleagues in the Government to ridicule and contempt as representative men who do not keep our word, who break our promises, or are indifferent to the interests of our country, and who care nothing for success. Whatever we do, even if what we do has been recommended by those critics, some new form of attack is discovered. I believe there is a limit to criticism and to attack. I do not say this in the interests of the Government, or because our withers are wrung, but I do honestly say that I believe myself the time has come when some men should ask themselves whether they are not more likely to aid the enemy than their own country by eternally criticising those upon whose shoulders rest the great responsibility of conducting this War.

A question was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Inverness Burghs (Mr. Annan Bryce) to which I have no doubt my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary will send a reply. It is quite right, as my hon. Friend says, that it raises a general principle. His objection is that the Cameronian Territorial Battalion has been absorbed into the Regular Battalion—the 1st Line Battalion of that famous regiment. I find it difficult to appreciate the ground of the hon. Gentleman's complaint, because, after all, if it had been finally absorbed, if it had been absorbed into a battalion so famous, it would be a fact about which nobody need grumble. But let me just say this: It is not a question of the extinction of the Territorial battalion. It is not a question of absorbing it in such a way that it will never be heard of again and will never recover its identity. It happens in this case, as I fear it must often happen in warfare, and in modern warfare especially, that this particular battalion was reduced by its gallantry and splendid action so considerably in numbers that it was in the opinion of the Commander-in-Chief at the front desirable for the present to merge the Territorial battalion into the 1st Battalion of the Line, in order that, for the time being, they might form one strong battalion. But there is no intention of destroying the Territorial battalion. In due course its identity will be restored to it, and I venture to think that in the future its history will be none the less satisfactory and rendered in no degree less glorious by reason of the fact that, for a time, it formed part of one of the most famous battalions in the most famous Army put into the field.

I now come to the special subject of this Debate with which I am myself more closely concerned. I take no objection to either the statements which have been made or the tone in which they have been made. I know that the criticisms in the main come from those who were opposed to the Act, who fought it from the beginning to the end, and who are still opposed to the Act and everything that it brings in its train. I do not complain that, holding those views, they bring these cases before the House of Commons, but I do differ entirely when I find the broad statement being made that these tribunals have broken down, that they have acted unjustly, and that generally they have been a failure. When I say that the number of the complaints is comparatively small, I say what I believe to be literally true. When these allegations are made about the tribunals, do those who make them stop to ask themselves how many cases of all kinds have been brought before these tribunals since they were first established? There have been thousands and thousands of cases, and when a certain number of cases, be it some hundreds or be it even a thousand, are brought before this House, am I not right in saying that as compared with the great mass of the work which these tribunals have done, the number of cases which form the burden of the complaints here is comparatively small?

I want to say this. It has been suggested by the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden) and by one or two other speakers presenting this case that I, as the Minister responsible, have been indifferent in some cases and that I have not taken the trouble to find out whether or not these allegations are true. I am not concerned to defend myself, but, as a matter of fact, that is not true. We have made the most careful inquiries. This does not involve any serious burden of labour upon my officials or upon myself, but it does impose a very considerable additional labour upon the tribunals, yet in every case where I have considered that the subject matter referred to in the question or in the complaint made during Debate was one which appeared to be important, I have addressed myself to the tribunals and have obtained the necessary information. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Yes, but let me go on to say this, that in a considerable number of cases the statements made in the House, either in questions or in speeches, have turned out to be allegations which were very different from the facts. I am not suggesting for a moment—it would be altogether wrong for me to do so—that hon. Members have made false statements. That would be absurd. What I do say is that before you can judge the action of a tribunal you must know all the circumstances of the case. We cannot rely upon a particular newspaper report. Newspapers, after all, are like Governments; they are only human, and they are liable to err as human beings err. I suppose a newspaper likes to put into its columns that which will be likely to attract people to buy the paper and add to its circulation. I am not familiar myself with newspaper work, and I hope, therefore, that I am not misrepresenting it. I gather that the object of a newspaper proprietor is to sell his newspaper as a commercial undertaking. It is because remarkable conversations between members of the tribunals and applicants are good reading that they find their way into the newspapers, while we hear nothing of thousands of cases in which members of tribunals have behaved with absolute decorum, where their decisions are absolutely right, and where everything is as it should be. We only hear of cases which are advanced as proofs of the incompetency of the tribunals or the wrongness of their decisions.

I repeat to the House, because I am anxious they should bear it in mind, that in a great many of these cases the reports which I have received—the newspaper reports and the written reports from the chairman of the tribunal—have differed altogether from the statements as represented in the questions or as made on the floor of the House. But it is true that in some cases the tribunals have misunderstood their duties and have misinterpreted the Act of Parliament and the Regulations. As I said yesterday, I have issued a circular—I think it has not actually left the office, but it is approved and due to go out—which is addressed both to the local tribunals and to the appeal tribunals, and it states perfectly clearly in regard to all the points, as far as I know, that have been raised in the course of this Debate, that where the tribunals have been in error there is need for alteration. For instance, we have called their attention to the fact that where an applicant to whom a notice of its decision has been posted may not have received it, they have power to extend the time, and that, in our opinion, if a request is made for extension, that extension ought to be granted. We have pointed out that they have power to allow an extension of the time in which an appeal may be made, and that in certain circumstances that extension ought to be granted. In regard to the demand for total exemption, that is to say, the case of the conscientious objector who desires total exemption, it is true that in some cases the tribunals have said they had no power to grant it. Of course, that is contrary to the Act of Parliament, and contrary to the Instructions. I have made it perfectly clear in the new circular that it is the duty of the tribunal to hear these cases. To refuse to hear them is an act of injustice, and contrary to the Act and the Regulations. We have pointed out that it is their duty to hear them, and that they have power to grant total exemption, provided they are satisfied that the applicant will be engaged in some form of national service.

Would the right hon Gentleman send out sufficient copies of this circular so that each member of a tribunal, and not only the chairman, will have one?

I will do the best I can to get them out as fast as possible. I do not mind how many they have, but it is difficult to get things done as quickly as we should like.

Certainly, I will do that. I think it will be communicated to the Press. I will take care that that is done. I point out here also that the Army Council—

The question has arisen of cases where a decision has been based on a misinterpretation of the law. If the Appeal Tribunal has decided on this mistaken view of the law, will there be a right of further appeal?

I cannot do that by regulation. I have not yet heard of any such cases, and it is just as well to wait till they arise. The Appeal Tribunals are only just beginning to sit.

The right hon. Gentleman was out when I gave two cases which have just come before Appeal Tribunals where the applicants claimed to have the decision postponed in order to enable them to produce written evidence that they were engaged on work of national importance, and the appeal was dismissed.

I must ask not to be called upon to express an opinion in respect of some particular case of which I have only heard, as my hon. Friend's will be the first to admit, a statement made by a strong advocate of one side. It is absolutely essential before I arrive at any decision on behalf of the Government in regard to a matter of that kind that I should have the whole of the facts before me. It is quite obvious that to create a second opportunity for appeal could only be done by statute, unless, of course, the tribunal were willing to extend the period and allow the case to be heard again. I could not really pledge myself to a statement as comprehensive as that unless I had full evidence before me that there is real need for a change of that kind. The Appeal Tribunals will have these very explicit instructions before them and will undoubtedly hear of the Debates which have taken place here to-day. I deal in this circular, for instance, with the refusal to admit the public and the Press, which has occurred in certain cases, and so far as I know I have dealt in this new circular with every one of the grievances which have been advanced to-night and which are founded on fact, because they are the result of the refusal of the tribunal to carry out the law and to act in accordance with the regulations.

I now come to the general position of the conscientious objector. Some severe criticism has been passed to-night upon the tribunals for the language they have used to the conscientious objector and the attitude they have adopted. Where the case is a genuine one and where it is properly presented I have no sympathy whatever with such conduct. I have nothing but condemnation for it. I do not share the views of the conscientious objector. I am utterly unable to understand his position. I cannot understand the plain English of it. I cannot understand the position of a man who claims all the rights and privileges of citizenship, the right to live in this free land, to enjoy the privileges of our free institutions, and it may be amasses a great fortune under the protection of our laws, and then, when every institution that we care for is at stake, when our liberties, our privileges, it may be the lives of those we care for most, are in danger, that man says, "I claim the right to live in your country, I claim the right to exercise all the privileges of citizenship and to enjoy all its advantages, but I decline to raise my hand in defence even of the women and children of the land." I cannot understand it, I frankly admit. But I know the conscientious objector is there. I know that he is an honest man.

Yes. Do not let there be any mistake about that. I am talking of the genuine conscientious objector. I do not understand him. It is impossible for me to comprehend the line of action which he has chosen for himself, but he is there, and you are not going to dispose of him by abusing him or by refusing to admit that he is a genuine man, although utterly and hopelessly mistaken, as we think. Therefore we admit that, the tribunals must consider these cases, and that the cases must be properly dealt with. I think it has been admitted to-night, even by our most severe critics, that our Act and our Regulations were in conformity with all that was said during the debates in the House.

I am asked two legal questions. One question is whether the death penalty is to be imposed in regard to a conscientious objector who refuses to have anything to do with military service. Most certainly not. The Section in the Act is perfectly clear which indicates that the death penalty shall not be inflicted upon a man who is called up from the Reserve, and who refuses to go. Then I am asked, Is the death penalty to be inflicted in France? I do not follow the case. The man has gone. He may have protested, but surely if he is going to give active resistance his active resistance will be in this country before he goes to France. I take it that a conscientious objector who says "It is against my conscience to have any connection with military service" will refuse to put on his uniform. You are not going to send him to France in plain clothes.

If you ask a question like that you might ask any question you like. Let us discuss this as practical men. I am not a soldier, but I understand that soldiers have an objection to people appearing in their ranks who are not dressed in uniform and properly taught to stand up in their place and do their work. Therefore, the suggestion that we are going to put, say, in a battalion of Guards, a man in plain clothes who has refused to have anything to do with military duties in any way is absurd. How are you going to get him to France, and when he has got to France how is he going to do that for which you are going to shoot him? Hon. Members talk of men being shot as if it was a common occurrence. Thank God, it is only a rare occurrence. A man is only shot if he is guilty of cowardice in front of the enemy, and after he has been tried for cowardice or desertion by court-martial. Therefore, to suggest that because a man passes into the Army and then refuses to perform military duties he is going to be shot is, I think, really to surround this particular part of the question with a quite false impression. The real point is this: the conscientious objector is called upon to join the Colours, and he refuses to go. Then I am told he will be taken under escort. When he gets there he refuses to do any military duties: he refuses to put on his uniform. I do not suppose you are going to have a nurse for every conscientious objector, to dress and undress him. If so he will be a very ex- pensive soldier, whatever his value may be from the fighting point of view. It is obvious that the difficulty with the conscientious objector is going to come long before you get him to France. If they are going to object to taking military duty, they will object from the first instance.

I am very sorry that I did not hear the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Worcester (Mr. J. W. Wilson). I was only absent from the House for three quarters of an hour, but even Ministers must dine some time, and I happened to be absent dining when he was speaking; but a very faithful account has been given to me of what he said, and I venture to say that my right hon. Friend has nearly expressed what it is the intention of the Government in the main to do. I want, first, to deal with what he said about the method of interrogating the conscientious objector. The hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden) said that you ought to take a man's word for it, that there is no other evidence you can get. The hon. Member for North-West Lanark (Mr. Pringle) found fault with the Government because we had appointed local tribunals to deal with these cases, and said that they should have been referred directly to a special tribunal. I venture to say that the conscientious objector is one of those cases which particularly ought to be taken in the first instance to a local tribunal. It is said: "How are you going to prove this, except by the man's word? Is the man to have a conscience only on one thing and on nothing else? Is the man's conscience to be so active as to refuse him the privilege of fighting for his country and for his people, but, on the other hand, to allow him to live a life as evil as he chooses to the dislike and contempt of his neighbours? Who is to know the local history of the man except the local tribunal?

When we are told that we should take a man's word we must recognise that it would be putting a premium upon those who are shirkers and who desire to escape by some means or other from this form of national service. No tribunal ought to be content with the man's declaration that he is a conscientious objector. They must ask him such questions as my right hon. Friend has indicated. They seem to be exactly the questions which a tribunal ought to ask. I believe that there are conscientious objectors—I have had their cases put before me by Members of this House—who have only joined the association authorising them to claim as conscientious objectors during the last six or seven weeks. Are you going seriously to contend that a man is to come before a tribunal and say, "I am a conscientious objector," and who, when you ask him how long his conscience has prompted him, has to reply, "Five or six weeks"? Are you going to take that as your case, because if you do you will bring the whole cause of the conscientious objector into disrepute. Some criticism has been passed upon the action of the Government in this respect. We are doing all we can to deal rightly and fairly by the conscientious objector. The Non-Combatant Corps which has been started by the War Office has been criticised to-day, but I think in error. It is not intended to have every conscientious objector in the Non-Combatant Corps in France. We hope that they will adopt other forms of national service, when they claim total exemption, and we are drawing up Regulations at the present time which will assist the tribunals in providing for those honest conscientious objectors who will not take military service in any form.

The suggestions which have fallen from my right hon. Friend and one or two others in reference to the conscientious objector are well worthy of consideration. I say again—the House will forgive me—I am quite unable to understand the conscientious objector, but I recognise that he is there and that his case has to be dealt with. Nobody wants to have the deplorable scenes which would undoubtedly occur if you were to say to these people, "You must either fight or go to gaol." You would not advance the cause of the Army, and you would not advance our national cause. We must face the situation, and we mean to do it to the best of our ability. We mean to recognise the fact, and to provide machinery by which the conscientious objector who has established his case to the complete satisfaction of the tribunal will have an opportunity of doing some work for his country. I think I have now dealt with—

Before the right hon. Gentleman concludes, will he deal with the question which I raised last week, and again this evening, namely, whether he will announce any steps to prevent married men of military age and good physique going into those places from which he is now weeding out the unmarried men hitherto exempted?

I do not think I agree with my hon. Friend. I have been at some pains lately to test the figures, and I believe there is a very large number of unmarried men eligible for military service still available, and we are trying to bring them to the Colours. There are various men who have not attested, and there are married men who have not attested—

The right hon. Gentleman has misunderstood me. I am not criticising married men, but speaking from the point of view of industry, which will be again upset, if it becomes necessary, as it will be in the next few months, to call out those married men.

My hon. Friend assumes a little too much, and I do not think industries would be upset if sufficient warning were given. What we are to do is to proceed by degrees. I speak with knowledge on the subject when I say that you can do to-day, in respect of our industries, many things in the way of the substitution of labour which could not be done a few months ago, and we will be able to do in a month or two months' time much that we could not do to-day. By degrees employers are accustoming themselves to altered circumstances. They are learning how to distribute their labour, and all we can do is to secure the largest number of men we require for the Army with as little disturbance as may be possible at the moment of any particular industry. Really I do not think it would be in the interests of the country, as a general policy, to say that where single men are taken away their places should not be filled by married men who have not attested, and who happen to be fit for military service. I think I have now dealt with the case of the conscientious objector, and I regard it as my duty to do all that lies in my power to make the Military Service Act work as justly and fairly as may be possible, to see that the soldiers are men fit for the service of the country, and, at the same time, that every reasonable criticism is answered that can be answered; and while I believe that the tribunals are doing their work well, I should not, if occasion arose, hesitate to convey to them such information as I thought they ought to have.

Promotion to Commissions

I am quite sure the House will welcome the speech which the right hon. Gentleman has just delivered with regard to the operations of the tribunals. I wish to refer to the case of the 20th Battalion Royal Fusiliers. During the last week or two I have put questions to the War Office representative with regard to that battalion. We have never been able to understand why it is that this battalion has not had the same treatment with regard to the matter of commissions as has been meted out to all other battalions of Public Schools and Universities. In the early days of the War there were the 18th, 19th, 20th, and 21st Battalions of the Royal Fusiliers and the 16th Middlesex, all raised as University and Public Schools battalions. Large numbers of young men flocked to those battalions, and the reasonable expectation was held out to them that if they joined their opportunity of gaining a commission would be in no way impaired by the fact of having joined one or other of those battalions. The history of at any rate the 20th Battalion shows that the men who joined that battalion unfortunately made a very grave error. I am speaking in regard to this battalion, because I happen to be a representative for Manchester. The battalion was mainly raised in Manchester, and consequently Manchester parents and relatives of the soldiers are intimately concerned in the fortunes of the 20th Battalion. During the twelve months prior to going to France the battalion, along with the other battalions, received training, and during the last four months they have sustained the honour of famous Fusilier Brigades in their corner in holding trenches in the front. During the whole of the time of their existence it has been an extremely difficult matter for a man who was a member of the 20th Battalion to obtain a commission. When they were in England it was almost an impossibility for a man of that battalion to be promoted to commissioned rank. It is not because the men are not of the capacity and quality suitable for commissions. I can well understand the commanding officer of a battalion does not like to lose really competent men, but if that point of view were to be maintained by all commanding officers in all circumstances it would be at a tremendous cost to the Army at large. It would mean that no man of great capacity would be promoted, and therefore that everybody who joined the ranks would have to stop in the ranks. That is almost exactly what has happened in regard to the 20th Battalion.

I pass over the period of their training in England and will deal with the situation as it has developed quite recently during their stay in France. Quite recently, I believe, the War Office asked each of the commanding officers of the various Public School battalions how many men in each battalion were suitable for promotion to commissions or to be trained for promotion. In the 18th, 19th, and 21st Battalions of the Fusiliers and the 16th Middlesex there were from two to three hundred men named by their commanding officers as being suitable for commissions. That, at any rate, is the report we have, but in regard to the 20th Battalion the report we have is that a much smaller number of men were reported, and practically it is stated round about twelve or twenty. The net result at all events is that the 20th Battalion has been kept in the firing line, while the other battalions have been retired and are being treated in one way or another, I will not say as officers' training corps, but large numbers of the men of those battalions are having expectations held out to them that they will be sent to officers' training schools in order to be trained. If the 20th were inferior in quality to the other battalions I should not have a word to say, but we deny that proposition. May I draw attention to the number of men in the 20th who have been repeatedly offered commissions by other commanding officers, but because of the action of the commanding officer of this battalion they have been refused permission to leave their battalion? I have here a letter giving me the names of twenty-three men in one platoon of the 20th who have been offered either one or two commissions by other commanding officers, but who in each case have been unable to accept those commissions owing to the action of this commanding officer.

The Under-Secretary of War, in answer to a question yesterday, stated that the men of all these battalions are on the same footing as regards the qualifications necessary for recommendations for commissions. I suppose that that is perfectly true on paper, but it is not true as it works out in fact. I know quite well that the right hon. Gentleman is not misrepresenting the case. I am sorry that—perhaps owing to a misunderstanding—he is not present, but no doubt the Financial Secretary will inform him of the points I am trying to make. The right hon. Gentleman, I am sure, has not yet been able to give the necessary time to deal with this matter and to see that justice is done. I dislike very much being in the position of apparently criticising a gallant officer in his absence. The gallant officer in command of this battalion is spoken of in terms of admiration so far as his soldierly qualities are concerned. I have seen letters from men under him, speaking of him in the highest terms so far as his soldierly qualities are concerned. But this is not a question of his soldierly abilities. I am complaining that this gallant officer is not giving reasonable facilities to men to obtain commissions, when other gallant officers in a similar position are giving such facilities. It comes to this: if these young men, 1,000 of them, some of the best sons of Manchester, had stayed at home, had "slacked" during twelve months, and then applied for commissions in the ordinary way, they would have been better off. It is certain they would have got their commissions. I will not weary the House by saying how many graduates of this or that university there are in the ranks to-day. I could tell them of one Government Department which has been astonished that a particular private does not get a commission, although that private is a lecturer in a subject of importance at one of our universities. But I do not wish to go into details. I wish to confine myself to the principle involved. That principle is, in my judgment, that a commanding officer should take a much wider view of the situation than merely the interests of his own battalion. If he is preventing suitable men from obtaining commissions he is taking a short view of the case. He is keeping in the ranks men who have gone through the period of training, and who have seen service in the trenches, when they might, with that experience, if they were promoted as they ought to be, be doing more important work at this stage of the War. In answer to a question of mine the Under-Secretary referred to the fact that investigation is being made. I hope that that investigation will come to an end quite soon, and that before a decision is come to the right hon. Gentleman will clearly understand that there are a large number of parents in Manchester who regard this matter as a great grievance and a serious injustice to their sons. For my own part, I think the War Office should insist upon the wider point of view that men who have been trained at home and have seen service in the trenches should, where suitable, be recommended for commissions. That is the point of view that should prevail rather than that of the commanding officer who may think that the interests of his own battalion may suffer if men are permitted to leave the ranks in order to obtain commissions. The last point that I wish to make is that the commanding officer does not get the best out of the men themselves. It seems to me to be going the right way about to create trouble. It is well known in the trenches that these men have been kept in the firing line, just as it is well known that other of their comrades, men who enlisted at the same time, have been sent out of the firing line with the view to officers being selected from their ranks. How is it in human nature that these men, who have gone through their training, and who have served in the trenches, should feel satisfied with treatment of this kind? I would submit these points to the War Office, not asking for an answer to-night, but that in the inquiry which is now proceeding, to which the Under-Secretary has referred, these points, which are most material, should be taken into account.

I only rise to emphasise what has been said by my hon. Friend. I have had a great many letters to the same effect as that of which he has spoken. But he has presented the case so fully that it is not necessary for me to say much. If there had been a greater number of Members in the House than there are at present I am sure he would not have had their sympathy. The fact of the matter is that the keenest and most patriotic of men in Manchester and district are suffering from their keenness and patriotism. They enlisted early, and now they find that they have actually penalised themselves. It is not fair that this should be so. My hon. Friend has spoken of the esteem in which the commanding officer is held. Still, that does not justify his conduct in this particular case. It is all very well for a commanding officer to think a great deal of the efficiency of his battalion, but if that efficiency is detrimental to the general good the War Office ought to interfere. There is no doubt that in this case the desire of the commanding officer to keep all those fellows who have proved themselves, as a model, it may be, for all the others, is sacrificing the general good for the sake of his own battalion. It has been the cause of a great deal of heartburning among the parents of these young men to see the men of other battalions who have stayed at home—they have done their duty so far as they could, no doubt—and have not been out in the firing line, getting commissions, whilst the men who have gone to the front and have borne the burden and heat of the day in the firing line, are refused commissions. It seems to them very unfair, and I think they have a very good case. However much the War Office may feel disinclined to interfere with the prerogative of the commanding officer, I hope that they will intimate to him that the needs of the country come before the efficiency of his particular battalion.

I only rise to speak upon this subject because a large number of my Constituents are in this 20th Battalion, and there is no doubt that they are men of the same stamp as those in the other battalions. I have had a great many complaints made to me, and, indeed, in one case a private has been asked for by no fewer than four commanding officers, but his application for a commission has been refused by the commanding officer in question. I think that gallant gentleman, fine soldier as he is, has taken too narrow a view of his duty. It has been said that he goes so far as to say when he has trained his men they are such a fine lot—they have been mentioned in dispatches, and he himself has been distinguished by his Sovereign for his conduct in the field—that he is unwilling to part with them. I can understand that, but the needs of the State are paramount to his particular pride of regiment, and it is a pity that men who would make most excellent officers should not be at the service of the State. We are raising another 1,000,000 men, and for 1,000,000 men 23,000 more officers are required. Where could you get better material for officers than in so distinguished a battalion, which has had eighteen months' service, with four months in the trenches? They are fully trained men—men who know their work and are in every way qualified to be officers. I do press upon the right hon. Gentleman the grievance of these young men. It is that they knew when they enlisted that they could get commissions; that in the ordinary course they would have been accepted eighteen months ago when they patriotic- ally came forward at the very beginning of hostilities. They did it with their eyes open, but they did it under an understanding—I will not put it higher—with the War Office that if they joined the Public Schools Battalion then they would be chosen as officers if they proved themselves fit for it. Undoubtedly most of them—I dare say nearly all of them, and certainly a very large number of them— are not only fit to be officers, but ought to be officers, and there is no doubt the country has great need of them. Amongst those who have been appointed to the position of officers are an enormous number of men who have had practically little or no experience, and men who are not so good emphatically as those who are prized at the present moment in the 20th Battalion Royal Fusiliers. I should not have ventured to address the House on this question except for the fact that so many of my constituents are in the battalion, and I thank hon. Members for the full way they have put the matter before the War Office, which makes it unnecessary for me to go into further details. I join in the appeal, and I am sure we shall have a very sympathetic answer from the Financial Secretary to the War Office.

I rise to support as heartily as I can the appeal which has been made by my hon. Friend, who has so ably put before the House the main points that I have really very little to add, but I can distinctly recollect that at the commencement of the War, when I was in my Constituency, I came across men graduates of the Manchester University, schoolmasters, bankers, clerks, warehousemen, men who were getting £300, £400, and £500 a year, leaving their business and their professions and joining the ranks of this battalion and other battalions. They did it on the spur of the moment in a fit of patriotism, for which, of course, they are to be praised, and, as my hon. Friends have already said, if they had waited until later they could quite easily have obtained commissions. I put their claim on a higher ground than the immediate interests of the parents of these young men or of the young men themselves, and I put it from the point of view of what is best for the country. There are young men in some of the battalions at the front doing their work magnificently who are worthy of doing a finer work still. Many of them are born to be leaders and trainers of men, therefore if we keep them in the trenches, although they are doing noble work, we lose the value of their services for the training of other men which the War Office admit is absolutely necessary. These men have been well educated; many of them have been through University life, a Public School curriculum, or have spent some years of their life in business careers in banks and so on, and therefore they have learned that large amount of discipline which enables a man very quickly to learn his military duties and show his superiority to his poorer companion who has not had the same advantage. Therefore I say that it is in the interests of the country to draw these young men out of these battalions and put them into positions of command. I therefore hope that my hon. Friend will put this matter very strongly before the authorities at the War Office. I have desisted from bringing this matter before the House, although I have often been tempted to do so, because I have not wished to worry the War Office with what might be looked upon as matters of detail, but which I regard as a serious question, especially in these days, when you want high qualities of leadership. I urgently press the Financial Secretary to the War Office to put it very strongly before the War Office that Lancashire Members feel most strongly on this question, not only from the point of view of the men themselves that they have a right to hold those positions, but from the point of view of the advantage it would be to our country.

Air Service

11.0 P.M.

One is always reminded by debates on the Consolidated Fund Bill of trying to catch a train at a railway station and missing it. There are so many subjects started in the course of the debate on which hon. Members desire to offer criticism, that before they have the opportunity of making those criticisms, or speaking before the Minister rises to reply, that the opportunity train which carries that subject has been whisked out of the station, and at this time of night one has to go back over a number of topics that have been raised and make some criticisms and ask questions in the hope that they may be answered. The question which has just been raised by Lancashire Members is one which, obviously, not only affects themselves, but also a great many other regiments. The particular battalion referred to may have been badly treated in regard to commissions, and on that there appears to be general agreement. I do not know this particular battalion intimately, but I do know that in the case of other battalions men who at the beginning of the War joined the ranks and went through all the hardships of a private's service are still in the ranks, while men of much less service are holding commissions and are frequently commanding these men. That does not conduce to that feeling in the ranks of our fighting forces which we have the right to expect from the material which lies to our hands, and, as suggested by my hon. Friend opposite, advantage should certainly be taken in the new battalions which are being raised of that type of men, because those of us who are familiar—and who in this House is not now familiar?— with what is happening at the front know the inestimable value of an officer here who has had some service at the front in training men to understand the work. He can convey to them in many subtle ways, in addition to the direct instruction which he can give, what is required at the front to enable them to face the hardships to which they are being taken in that spirit which will ultimately bring the victory we all so much desire. I hope, therefore, that the many Under-Secretaries who are present and who have the painful task before them of putting out the station lights after this Debate is finished will convey to their respective chiefs the feeling of the House which has just now been expressed by Members from Lancashire and by a humble Member from Scotland. There was a famous combination in which the people of Manchester and Hawick, which is in Scotland, claimed to be responsible for everything and said, "It was done by Manchester and us." That combination now I hope will have some effect upon the War Office. I want to come back to the Air Service. The Air Service debate this afternoon raises a very important question, and is an illustration of what I mean by the vitality of a debate on the Consolidated Fund Bill. We had a speech from one of the most recent recruits to the House, the Member for East Hert (Mr. Billing) which was immediately followed by the answer of the Under-Secretary of State for War. There was no other discussion before the Minister replied. We had a plan adumbrated by one who, although a new Member, has very considerable aeronautical experience behind him and is entitled to speak on a question of that sort, and we found that snowed under by the Under-Secretary of State for War producing the usual testimonial from the front which is produced whenever any complaint is made that all is not well in that particular service. The hon. Member made what appealed to me as an ordinary observer and as one interested in this question, having been compelled to live in an area which is subject to air raids, to be a suggestion which was worth the consideration of the House. He pointed out that the Navy required aeroplanes for particular purposes, and that the Army also required those machines. He described them in picturesque phraseology as "eyes." He pointed out that they were the eyes of the Navy and of the Army. It seems to me to suggest that what he was driving at was that the Navy should have for its particular purpose a fleet of seaplanes which would serve purposes more closely associated with its work; that the Army should have a corresponding fleet of aeroplanes, and that there should be created an entirely new service—what one might describe as a super-service—of aeroplanes to which should be committed the whole work of the offensive. That was met by the War Office with a criticism which, in my view, was anything but complete, and I began to wonder in my own mind whether or not the War Office were cognisant at the moment of the use which was being made of the men in the Anti-Aircraft Corps for the defence of the great city of London. I am sorry that the First Lord of the Admiralty is not present. I am also sorry that the Under-Secretary for War is not here, because this is a matter which vitally affects both of the Departments. If any of the Junior Whips have the time, I hope they will acquaint both these Ministers with the fact that this subject is being raised and that questions are being put which require answers, and which, if no answers are given to-day, can be put again on the Third Reading, and will be put over and over again until they are answered.

With regard to the defence of London, the House will have within its recollection the fact that this was primarily in the hands of the First Lord of the Admiralty, but that after a recent Zeppelin raid a concession was made to public clamour, and Sir Percy Scott, a distinguished naval officer, was appointed to control the defences. At that time there were particular defences of this great city. It is not right anybody should describe them, but one is saying nothing that is not known when one describes them as threefold. The defences are in what one might term concentric rings, and in those concentric rings there are fortifications which are manned by guns to meet these Zeppelin raids. The forts in these concentric rings were originally manned by men who belong to the Anti-Aircraft Corps. Let the House bear in mind who these men were. They were all men who had tried to get into the Army and had been ploughed because of some slight physical defect. They are men who are married or over age or not attested. They are men who in ordinary circumstances would be of no use to the War Office as soldiers in the field. But they are very able men. There are among them a great number of the best professional men in London, men with an extremely fine record in mechanics and mathematics, who devoted their leisure at the beginning, and since the corps has been more disciplined, in a way which commands the admiration of those who know. Some of the best devices for discovering the height at which Zeppelins are flying, and how they can be brought down, had been brought out and perfected by men in this particular corps, and the inventive ability of these men has recently received recognition, both from the War Office and from the Admiralty. Within the past few weeks, almost within the past few days, a different policy has been adopted by the Government. Instead of these men being kept in the work for which they originally volunteered and which, after months of training, they are now extremely competent to do, the War Office has taken control of these particular stations, and there are at many of these stations to-day men who have never been trained to this work, men who could not utilise the guns against Zeppelins to-night if the Zeppelins were here while we are continuing this Debate, while the 3,000 or 4,000 men who have given these eighteen months of work and energy to this particular task have been drawn into the inner ring of fortifications of London, and at the present moment are absolutely uncertain as to whether they will be continued in the work they are doing or whether they will be got rid of by the War Office authorities, or whatever hybrid authority is now responsible for the defences of London. I see opposite the hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King) who has on previous occasions raised this question, and I hope that to-night he will give me his support in putting forward the claims of a body of men who deserve much better of the Government than there has been any evidence of at the moment.

We talk a great deal of economy in the use of men. Why! we were discussing recently the raising of 4,000,000. There are men to-night on some of these stations in London with the Imperial Service badge on their breasts who are asking why they are being sent to these stations to learn a job they do not know, and why they cannot be sent abroad on a job they do know, and where they want to be sent. It is time some attention was given to the defences of this great city. I am reminded by that of this fact: I should like to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty—he is not here, but I hope somebody will ask him by proxy—why it was that he gave up the control of the men who defend the City of London? Was it on account of any report that he received from any distinguished officer? Is that report in existence? Is the House of Commons to be informed of the material that is in that report? Is that report of such a nature that the hair of everybody in London would stand on end if they knew its contents? Is it a report which means that much more attention, and particular attention, ought to be paid to the defences of London than has yet been paid in the course of the manæuvres that have taken place? Here is a city that contains millions of property and millions of lives. It is no secret to say that one of these Zeppelins alone in a raid on London has been responsible for—I will not give the exact figure, although I could give it—hundreds of thousands of pounds of damage. If you contemplate what may be expected in the springtime from a German offensive on land, it is perfectly clear that the damage to property and life in London would be colossal unless this question of the control of the men responsible for the defences is brought to an end. I am sorry to have to put this point at this late hour of night in the centre of London, but I hope on the Third Reading to put the point at greater length and with further and perhaps better arguments. I suggest at the moment that we ought to have some statement, although it is rather hopeless to say these things at this time of night, because there is not an Under-Secretary on the Treasury Bench who looks as if he could give an answer to any of these questions, even if he wanted to. It is hopeless, therefore, to ask these questions, but we ought to know with regard to these men in the Anti-Aircraft Corps what the Government is going to do about them. I know a great many of these men personally. Some of them are very clever young engineers and mechanics and some men of great inventive ability. They have said, "What is going to happen to us? We have been serving twenty-four hours off and twenty-four hours on for these past weeks in all kinds of weather learning our job. We are now expert gunners, we have all the enthusiasm for the Service with which we started still retained, although we have been treated badly, but yet we see other people taking our posts who do not know the work and whom our officers are training, and we ask ourselves, Are you going to get rid of a body of 4,000 trained men, of whom 95 per cent. at the very least are trained to the last inch in the work that they have to do, and replace them by men who have all the work to learn and who might easily be used elsewhere?

I have exhausted two points of the ten. I will not pursue the other eight. I claim that I have a good House of Commons spirit, and I cannot complain, if anybody else can, that I do not get opportunities of speaking. Therefore I am not going to take advantage, as I might do, so long as I am kept in order, to go on until a very early hour of the morning. I wanted, however, to put one point in order to show Ministers that really this manner of conducting debates on the Consolidated Fund Bill is most unfair to the House and most unfair to the big subjects that we discuss. It is perfectly true—and we all know the reason of it—that Ministers desire to get in a reply on a particular subject as quickly as they can. When one Member has risen and raised a subject and the Minister has replied, the Member who has other points on the same subject rather feels that it is up to him to intrude, and so other subjects are not squeezed back. I think I have done enough if I have proved that one could go on to a great extent and keep still in order and with good arguments on good points, but I refrain, and I hope when the Third Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill is taken Ministers will give the House more opportunity of taking part on a particular subject before they conclude the discussion on the subject by a reply.

My hon. Friends (Mr. Hogge and Mr. Needham) will not expect a detailed reply. I undertake that the views they have expressed will be fully borne in mind by the responsible authorities, whether at the War Office or at the Admiralty. With regard to what the hon. Member (Mr. Hogge) has said as to the difficulty of debate on the Consolidated Fund Bill, it is a very old grievance, and a very old problem with which I have been familiar for a good many years. The hon. Member commented on the fact that people who sit on these benches are apt to get up to make their reply at the earliest posible moment. I was the first to get up from this bench to-day to make a reply to a speech which was made opposite.

I have not got off. I have sat here until now listening to the eloquence of others, and I am now doing what I can to wind-up the performance. I do not wish to pursue the matter. I will represent the views that I have heard expressed on this and other subjects to those who either share with me responsibility or who are responsible themselves.

Such a kindly and pressing appeal has been made to me to say a few words that I forego my own comfort at the call of duty. We are indebted very greatly to the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) for calling attention to the position of the anti-aircraft defences of London. I cannot say that I have shared his experience in finding it easy to get an opportunity of bringing this matter before the House. I have sat in the House for four days in the hope of speaking upon this subject, but unfortunately I went out just before what I thought was going to be the dinner-hour, and while I was dining the one opportunity that I should certainly have had of addressing the House upon the subject was lost. I want to tell the occupants of the Treasury Bench that sufficient attention, forethought, and control are not being devoted to the Anti-Aircraft Corps. I have received personally a very large number of letters from people unknown to me, and quite a number of personal calls from my friends in the Anti-Aircraft Corps, also a number of communications of various kinds, all pointing to the fact that the men in the Anti-Aircraft Corps are disheartened and irritated in a way which is very distressing. The fact is the War Office have not made up their mind how they are going to treat this question. There has undoubtedly been friction between the War Office and the Admiralty. I could give facts and instances to prove that. There is still existing at the present time an indecision, a hesitancy, and a lack of definite plan and idea of how they are going to treat these men, how they are going to treat the guns, how they are actually arranging the control and command of the anti-aircraft defences of London, which are most unsatisfactory. I may have an opportunity of pressing this matter with one or two definite instances, and perhaps with some clear suggestions on the Third Reading of the Bill. I wish earnestly to represent to the Financial Secretary, and possibly he will inform the Under-Secretary, that this matter cannot be left where it is. I have had information sent to me which if I put it down in the form of question would distress people, but I have exercised my usual restraint in the matter. It is the duty of the War Office to take this matter in hand to understand the difficulties, grievances and disappointments of the splendid Anti-Aircraft Corps and by some sort of controlled method and authorisation put the anti-aircraft defence into a much more secure and satisfactory position.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for to-morrow (Thursday).

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Business of the House

Whereupon Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 22nd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

I desire to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury if he can give us some information as to what the Government intend to do as to the Naval and Military War Pensions Bill in Committee and also in connection with the Report of the Expenses Resolution. The House rose last night very quickly owing to a fault which was entirely one's own. One ought primarily to be here all the time, and I do not blame the Government for getting the advantage of any one being absent. When a man is absent he has got to take his chance. Anyhow, the Bill got through last night without any statement from the Minister in charge. It is a very important Bill, which ought not to go through the House without some discussion, or certainly some explanation. It affects so many people who ought to see a statement about it which would enable them to know thoroughly and exactly what they have a right to claim in the way of relief. To-morrow, I suppose, we will have the Civil Service Estimates on getting the SPEAKER out of the Chair. Will that occupy the whole day, and if the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury assumes that it will not, will he put this down as the first Order of the day, or at such time that it can be reasonably discussed? There is no desire to have an acrimonious discussion on this because we are all agreed on it; but we do want some public notice taken of this transfer of £1,000,000. Some of us want to ask certain questions, as, for instance, whether this £1,000,000 is to be regarded as a capital sum of which the income is to be spent, or whether the whole million might be spent in the one year. These are the sort of points on which we would like to ask some questions.

We had hoped to-night that we might have had the Second Reading of this Bill in time to have taken the next Order. That has not been done. We shall hope to get it to-morrow, as the first Order is getting the Speaker out of the Chair on the Civil Service Estimates. My hon. Friend is much more in a position than I to know how long that will take. We hope that we may get it in time to get the Committee stage of the Consolidated Fund Bill, which we must get to-morrow, and we hope also that there will be time for this.

From the conversation of other Members, the Treasury Bench must not run away with the idea that the first Order to-morrow will be quickly concluded. My own impression is that it is likely to go the day. There is a number of questions, of which the Defence of the Realm has first place on the Amendment, which will certainly take some time.

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Half after Eleven o'clock.