House of Commons
Thursday, March 23, 1916
Army Reserve (Regulations)
Copies presented of Royal Warrant, dated 1st March, 1916, relating to men deemed to have been enlisted under the Military Service Act, 1916, and Royal Warrant, dated 20th January, 1916, relating to men enlisted under the Royal Warrant of 20th October, 1915 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
East India (Civil Service)
Copy presented of Rules, dated 14th March, 1916, made by the Secretary of State for India in Council under the Indian Civil Service (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1915 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
National Debt (Savings Banks and Friendly Societies)
Order [16th March] that the Paper relative thereto do lie upon the Table and be printed, read, and discharged.
Oral Answers to Questions
War
Interned British Fishermen (Ruhleben Camp)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has had a letter written at the request of 200 British fishermen now interned in the Ruhleben Camp in Germany; and if he will take steps to effect an exchange of an equal number of German fishermen at present interned in this country?
The reply to the first part of the question is in the negative. I am afraid that it would be impracticable to arrange an exchange on the lines suggested by my hon. Friend.
Food Production (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland how much of the untenanted land acquired by the Congested Districts Board and withheld by them from distribution they are putting under tillage crops this season, in pursuance of the policy of increasing food production; and, if they are tilling more of it than available allottees would till in present circumstances, will he say how much more?
The Congested Districts Board are not putting the untenanted grass lands acquired by them under tillage crops, as to do so would greatly delay the disposal of the land to migrants and to occupiers of congested holdings. The Board have distributed to migrants and in parcels for the enlargement of small holdings upwards of 20,000 acres of untenanted lands during the current financial year. The Board are endeavouring to prepare for sale and to dispose of the untenanted lands in their possession as rapidly as their financial resources and the labour available for the preparation of new holdings permit.
Military Service
Congested Districts Board, Ireland (Employment of Single Men)
asked what decision has been arrived at by the Congested Districts Board upon the question of employing single fit men of military age upon their various works?
The Congested Districts Board do not think it advisable that their works on which the labourers in their employment are now engaged should be stopped or interfered with. To do so would retard food production and ultimate increase of tillage.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take the opportunity of tendering any advice upon this matter?
I am not president, but whenever I am there I take the chair. The advice I gave on this occasion was that they should not take any steps to interfere with the desire of the people on their estate to join the Army or to put a stop to work on the estate.
Appeal Tribunals
asked the President of the Local Government Board how many members constitute the Appeal Tribunal for the county of Lancashire; how many of these have been appointed as representatives of Labour; and is the number of Labour representatives considered to be an adequate representation of Labour on the tribunal and to provide for an adequate representation of Labour on any committees which may be appointed?
The Lancashire Appeal Tribunal consists of thirty-eight members, six of whom were appointed as representatives of Labour. Having regard to the functions of the tribunal, I do not think the Labour representation can be regarded as inadequate.
Are we to conclude from that answer that one-sixth of the representation is considered to be an abundant representation of Labour?
I said I did not think it could be regarded as inadequate. Where there are a great many interests to be represented, I think six Labour representatives is a fair share.
asked the President of the Local Government Board if his attention has been called to the fact that there is not a single Welsh-speaking Welshman on the Appeal Tribunal for Pembrokeshire; whether he is aware that a large proportion of the inhabitants of that county prefer to give their evidence in Welsh; and whether he has taken any steps to remedy the composition of this tribunal?
I am in communication with the chairman of the Appeal Tribunal on the subject.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say if he has made strong representations?
I have made it quite clear that there must be no difficulty in receiving the evidence from Welsh-speaking people, but whether that can be better done by having a Welsh member of the tribunal or by the presence of an interpreter I am not in a position to state.
( by Private Notice ): I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether any steps are being taken to classify the cases which are about to be brought before the Central Tribunal with a view to the early hearing of representative cases, so giving guidance to Appeal Tribunals, and avoiding the duplication of work, and the possibility of mutually inconsistent decisions?
I shall be glad to bring the hon. Gentleman's suggestion before the Central Tribunal.
Storage of Furniture
asked whether, in the cases of married men called up for service and who desire to leave their wives and children with relatives, arrangements could be made through the local authorities to provide storing accommodation for furniture by taking over empty buildings and allowing storage of furniture in them for a nominal consideration, sufficient to cover insurance risks, etc., and so save the charge usually made by the regular furniture storing houses?
I should not wish to stand in the way of any such arrangements which a local authority might be willing to make, but it must be understood that local authorities possess no general powers enabling them to act in the way suggested.
Supposing that any local authority was able to make arrangements to give facilities for the storing of this furniture, would it have the approval of the right hon. Gentleman?
Most certainly. It would have my approval and also any assistance I can give them, but my hon. Friend knows that does not prevent local authorities from being attacked by their constituents for doing that which is held to be illegal. I will do anything in my power, and I have no doubt I could facilitate such an arrangement.
Local Tribunals
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he has received a communication, dated 19th February, complaining that the How-den Rural District Council had altogether ignored the claims of Labour in connection with the appointment of the local tribunal; and whether he will take steps to ensure that a recognised representative of Labour is duly elected to that body?
I am making inquiries in this case.
Supporter of Blind Dependants
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the claim for exemption by a man who was the sole support of a blind mother, three blind sisters, and a blind brother; and whether, in view of the exigencies of such a case, he can impress upon tribunals that there are other considerations than those of piling up numbers for the Army?
I have heard of a somewhat similar case in which the man proposed to apply for exemption, and I may point out that express provision is made for exemption where serious hardship would arise owing to a man's exceptional domestic position. Tribunals are well aware of this provision.
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to a statement made at the Girvan Local Tribunal on the 9th instant by a member of the tribunal who said that he would put all conscientious objectors in the front line, and that it was all bunkum about conscientious objectors; and, seeing that the Act provides for exemption on the ground of conscientious objection, whether he will undertake that members of tribunals who are partisan will be removed so as to secure the impartial administration of the Military Service Act?
I have only seen a brief newspaper report. I agree that it would be well if members of all tribunals from the highest would abstain from strong expressions of individual opinions when engaged in performing functions which call for impartiality and a judicial temper. As to the last part of the question, I would point out to my hon. Friend that the members of local tribunals are appointed by the local authorities under the Act.
Conscientious Objectors
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the commentaries of chairmen of tribunals; whether he is aware that when a conscientious objector at Leominster stated that he believed the power of God to be stronger than his arm the mayor told him to talk sense; whether he is aware that the mayor also upbraided him for his selfishness; whether tribunals are supposed to administer the law or indulge in generalities of this kind; and whether he will take steps to protect appellants from vulgar abuse from the tribunals?
Reference to the cases of conscientious objectors is included in a circular which I am on the point of issuing to the tribunals.
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been called to the action of one of the Glasgow local tribunals on the 16th instant in ignoring the instructions issued by him with regard to the exemptions which may be granted to conscientious objectors; and, if so, what action he proposes to take?
I have been in communication with the local tribunal on the subject of this question, and I find that they are perfectly aware of their powers under the Act as to granting exemptions to conscientious objectors.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the tribunal takes a view directly contrary to that embodied in his instructions as to their powers?
They do not. I have had the advantage of seeing the chairman of the committee, and I think my hon. Friend has been misled by the report in the papers, which is somewhat ambiguous.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that a member of the tribunal has indicated that they are not bound by the instructions, but by their own interpretation of the Act.
That is not included in the question asked.
Yes, it is.
Has the right hon. Gentleman, who has seen the chairman, also seen a deputation of the men to-day?
No, Sir.
Why not?
I really cannot receive deputations appealing from local tribunals, seeing that the law provides a proper appeal.
Are we to understand from the right hon. Gentleman's answer that the tribunals now recognise that they have power, if they think fit, to grant complete exemption on the ground of conscientious objection?
I think that the tribunals have always understood that.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the deputation did not wish to see him on that point at all?
I understand that the deputation wished to put before me cases of conscientious objection, but as provision is made for appeal, I did not think it would be proper to receive the deputation.
Appeal Cases (Reasons for Rejection by Local Tribunal)
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that the form of appeal is issued in duplicate, one for the local tribunal to send to the Appeal Tribunal and the other to send to the military representative; whether he is aware that on the back of both the local tribunal sets out its reasons for rejection, and that, as a consequence, while the military representative goes to the Appeal Tribunal armed with those reasons, the appellant has no knowledge of the same; and whether, seeing that the military representative and the appellant are both parties to the same case, he can see his way to furnish the appellant with the same information open to the military representative?
The duplicate notice of appeal filled up by the appellant which is to be sent by the local tribunal to the other party to the case does not provide for the entering of the reasons of the local tribunal for their decision.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say if the facts are as stated in the question, that the military representative has certain facts before him in going to the Appeal Tribunal which the appellant has not? Does he not see that both ought to be in the same position?
According to the Regulations no provision is made for entering the reasons for the decision on that part of the form which is sent to the military representative. If some tribunals have done it they have acted in a way which is not in accordance with the Regulations.
Conviction of Mrs. Nellie Best
asked the Home Secretary whether Mrs. Nellie Best is now imprisoned in Holloway Prison; whether there is anything exceptional in the treatment which she receives; what is the state of her health; and whether some curtailment of this prisoner's sentence can now be considered?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, Mrs. Best was sentenced to imprisonment in the first division, and there is nothing exceptional in her treatment. As regards the third, she refuses to be examined or to give the medical officer of the prison any assistance in ascertaining her state of health, but so far as he can judge, her health is much the same as it was on her reception in prison. As to the fourth, no sufficient reason has been shown to justify the Home Secretary in recommending any interference with her sentence.
Is this lady in hospital or in an ordinary part of the prison?
I shall require notice of that question.
Is she being forcibly fed, and, if she is being forcibly fed, is she being treated under the "Cat-and Mouse Act"?
Will my hon. Friend please give notice?
Land Labour
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention had been called to a resolution passed unanimously at a meeting of the Lanarkshire branch of the Farmers' Union of Scotland protesting against the action of local tribunals in depleting farms of necessary labour; and, if so, whether further instructions to tribunals will be issued enjoining the necessity of retaining on the land labour which is necessary for the production of food?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. With regard to the second part, I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave yesterday to my hon. Friend the Member for the Louth Division of Lincolnshire.
Is the right hon. Gentleman having regard to those districts where there is a scarcity of women's labour on account of the competition of munition work?
Of course that must be an element on the question as to whether they are essential and irreplaceable.
That arises here.
Attested Men and Conscripts
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that in respect of the period of postponement voluntarily attested men are being worse treated than conscripts under the Military Service Act; and, if so, whether he will take steps to have his promise carried out that both classes will, as far as possible, be placed on an equal footing?
I must refer my hon. Friend to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for War to the hon. Member for Tower Hamlets on the 16th March. If my hon. Friend has any special case of hardship in mind I shall be happy to have it looked into, if he will send me particulars.
Defence of the Realm Act
Premises Searched, Cork
asked under what statute the police kept some business premises in Cork closed during a portion of last week, in the absence of disturbance or proclamation; when will the innocent articles, including business documents and a cheque written in Irish, taken from houses under pretence of a raid for arms, be returned to their respective owners; and whether the boxes, drawers, and presses broken open on that occasion will be repaired by the police or executive?
I am informed that the police did not keep any business premises in Cork closed during a portion of last week, but that on the 14th instant the premises of John Jennings, William Shorten, and Thomas Curtin, which are usually opened at 9 a.m., were searched at 8 a.m. under No. 51 of the Defence of the Realm Regulations. The question of the ultimate disposal of the documents seized on the occasion and at present retained by the police is being considered. No boxes, drawers, or presses were broken open by the police.
Detention Without Trial
asked the Home Secretary what offence is alleged against each of the British-born subjects now in prison without trial or legal accusation; if a crime, and the evidence good, what is the reason for denying a trial; and what is the statutory authority for this imprisonment without trial?
I cannot add anything to the full statement which the Home Secretary made to the House in debate on the 2nd of this month.
Commission of Peace, Cork
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland on what grounds Councillor Lane, of Cork, has been deprived of the Commission of the Peace; and what action he proposes to take with reference to that case?
Mr. Lane has been deprived of the Commission of the Peace by the Lord Chancellor of Ireland for having made use in public of expressions inconsistent with the position of a magistrate, and I do not propose to take any action in the matter.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Councillor Lane opposed in the council a motion to confer the freedom of the city of Cork upon the Lord Chancellor, and that this is the cause of his removal?
I do not think so. There were other reasons intervening.
Old Age Pensions
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether, in view of the inadequacy of old age pensions due to the present rise in prices, he has considered the question of making recommendations to the local authorities; and whether he has taken any action in connection therewith?
The amount of the old age pension is determined by statute. It could not be increased by any recommendations which I might make to local authorities.
Has the right hon. Gentleman considered the introduction of legislation to relieve the disabilities attached to old age pensioners receiving relief from the local authorities?
It does not come within my functions. The Old Age Pensions Act is a Treasury Act, and they administer it. I only act in a very minor capacity, and any legislation would have to be introduced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Would legislation to relieve the disqualification of persons who have received relief from the local authorities be required to be introduced by another person or Department?
Yes, by the Treasury.
Belgian Enlistments
asked the President of the Local Government Board how many Belgians have been compulsorily enlisted in the Belgian Army in this country in accordance with the arrangements given by him in this House on 10th November, 1915?
I do not think it would be in the public interest to give the figures.
Restricted Imports (Hops)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in a recent interview with a representative of an American newspaper, he stated that an Order in Council was about to be issued prohibiting the import into the United Kingdom of bulky luxuries in order to provide room on ships for necessaries; and if he will say whether hops will be included among the bulky luxuries to be prohibited by the Order in Council referred to?
A Proclamation prohibiting the importation of certain goods was issued on Tuesday, and a Proclamation relating to further classes of goods will be issued very shortly. The question of hops is under consideration, but it will not be included in the next Proclamation, which will deal with manufactured goods.
Has the right hon. Gentleman taken into consideration the fact that the import of hops last year required 2,500,000 cubic feet of space, and that the same space would have sufficed for the import of 53,000 tons of wheat and 52,000 tons of sugar?
If worked out on that basis, I have no doubt that the hon. and learned Gentleman's arithmetic is correct, but I am not aware that the wheat and the sugar would have come in the same vessel.
Chislet Colliery, Limited, Kent (Enemy Shareholders)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will say what proportion of the share capital of the colliery near Chislet, Kent, which was known before the War as the Anglo-West-phalian Colliery Company, is held by aliens; whether he is aware that a German named Peritz, who was formerly managing director, recently visited the works; why this gentleman has not been interned; if he is aware that no coal is being raised at this colliery, but that development work is being carried on by labour which, if the colliery were closed, would be released for work of greater national importance; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
Less than 1 per cent. of the share capital of the Chislet Colliery, Limited, is held by enemies. There is a further indirect interest of enemies in the company owing to their holding shares in another company which is a shareholder of the Chislet Colliery, Limited, but the proportion is small. I have no information as to any visit to the works by the former managing director, who, as a matter of fact, was interned on 24th July last and has not since been released. As regards the part of the question relating to the employment of labour on development work, I will consult the Home Office.
Sugar Supplies
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will say whether supplies of fine sugar were recently stopped by the Government; if he is aware that for this alleged reason one large retailer in Bradford was unable to obtain deliveries of this class of sugar for seven weeks, and was kept without stock for two weeks, although the Royal Commission were at the time quoting the price wholesale and retail as if this class of sugar was on sale; and whether he will arrange that when the supply is stopped in future a public announcement shall be made to avoid misunderstanding between the public and retail traders as to the cause of the stoppage?
The reply to the first part of this question is in the negative, and it is not anticipated that the contingency mentioned in the second part will arise.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that in many cases wholesale grocers, as a condition to the sale of sugar, are stipulating that the purchasing retailer should also purchase tea, often of a specific brand, and that this stipulation is consequently imposed by the retailer on the public who are thereby compelled to buy a brand of tea which they do not desire, and further to buy tea in excess of their requirements; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
Any such cases should be reported to the Secretary of the Royal Commission on the Sugar Supply, when they will at once be investigated. The practice, however, of selling sugar to purchasers of other goods, unless abused, may act as a safeguard against undue purchases by those members of the public who desire to accumulate stocks in order that they shall not have to share in any economy that the national interest may require.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is not in the national interest to impose such a system upon poor people?
Yes. Of course if there is a reduction in the total sale of sugar it is quite obvious that it must affect all classes. The reduction will not be permanent. It will not go further. So long as it does last I hope that all classes will show themselves willing to bear it.
Is it not more likely that the probable result of this will be to compel poor people to buy a class of tea they do not want and in excess of what they want, and is not that grossly undesirable?
The question put to me is dealing with wholesale grocers.
No.
This is primarily a matter for the wholesale grocers. The supplies come from the, wholesale grocers. That was the question. Of course, any case in which this practice is abused—in fact, every case—will be inquired into by the Sugar Commission.
Does the right hon. Gentleman know that this is a practice which is in force all over the country and is growing, and that the injustice is very great?
Has the right hon. Gentleman considered that the obligation to purchase other articles may be used indirectly as a means of increasing the price of sugar?
Yes, I am aware of that, but the shortage of sugar, I trust, will be only quite temporary—that is, the shortage on the present scale. It is due to the shortage of shipping. I think that the shortage on the present scale will be over almost immediately, and then I trust that troubles of this kind will disappear.
Does that mean that the shortage of shipping is going to be reduced?
No; it refers to the shipping available at particular times and particular places for the transport of sugar. I think that the difficulties have now been overcome.
asked the names of the members of the Sugar Committee; and if they are dealing directly with the public or only advising the Board of Trade?
The names of the members of the Royal Commission on the Sugar Supply appeared in the Gazette of 11th September, 1914. The Commission is carrying on its work independently of the Board of Trade, and deals with the members of the public so far as they are concerned with the sugar trade.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) whether, in view of the importance of sugar as an article of food in the form of preserves and similar products, he is taking any special steps to restrict the consumption of sugar in the form of articles of luxury like confectionery in a larger degree than in the form of articles of food; and (2) whether, in restricting the supplies of sugar to preserve makers to 75 per cent. of their previous consumption, he took into consideration the probable effect of such a measure in increasing the price of jam much more than proportionately to the increase in the price of sugar and in depressing the price of fruit below an economic level and ruining fruit-growers; and whether he has secured from any competent authority a report of the comparative effects of artificial restriction of the consumption in various trades?
I will bear my hon. Friend's suggestions in mind, but I do not think that action on the lines proposed by him is necessary at the present time.
When there is a shortage of sugar is restriction being imposed upon articles of food and upon articles of luxury in the same proportion?
It is at the present time, but I hope the present shortage will not be a lasting shortage.
If it lasts will that be revised?
If it lasts we will have to reconsider the whole circumstances.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether and, if so, to what extent the supplies of sugar to brewers are being restricted?
Brewers' sugars have not been included in the scope of the operations of the Royal Commission on the Sugar Supply.
May I ask whether that is being reconsidered?
No, we do not propose to do so. Brewers' sugars are dealt with under my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade's Regulations with regard to the prohibition of imports.
Where does he get the sugar? Does he not get it from the right hon. Gentleman?
No, we do not give it.
Is it imported separately?
Yes.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that there has been a shortage of sugar in all parts of the country, and that the price has been increased over and above that promised by the Government; and if he can give the reasons why sugar is being held back by the Government?
It has been found necessary to restrict sugar supplies in order to be in a position to economise in the use of tonnage employed in the import of that commodity. Any cases of overcharge reported to the Sugar Commission will be investigated by them.
Is the Chancellor of the Exchequer aware that the Government promised, some long time ago, that the price of sugar should not exceed 4d. per 1b., and that now 5d. and 5½d. is being charged?
I think that since the time to which my hon. Friend refers the price of sugar has been raised by the Government to 4½d. I am informed that the general retail price now is 4½d.
No.
You go and buy a pound of sugar outside, and see what you have to pay.
West African Colonies (Spirits Imported)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether British ships are during the War taking out to the West African Colonies cargoes of spirits which used to be taken in German ships; whether he can state from what ports in Europe the spirits are exported, and in what quantities they were imported into the Colonies of Sierra Leone, Gold Coast, and Nigeria, respectively, during the calendar year 1915; and whether he can give an assurance that this trade is now restricted?
Before the War spirits were, like other goods, conveyed to West Africa by British and by German vessels. A large proportion of the exports, though shipped at Hamburg, were of Dutch manufacture. At present, I understand, the port of Rotterdam is the only important port of export, and the spirits are carried by British vessels only. The imports of spirits into the three Colonies referred to, stated in hectolitres of pure alcohol, were, in 1915:
Enemy Aircraft Raids (Mine Insurance)
asked if the Government insurance scheme against damage by aircraft or bombardment covers damage which may be occasioned to property on shore by the explosion of mines of German or British origin which may drift upon the coast, as has already happened on more than one occasion?
asked whether in view of the fact that mines have washed ashore on the East Coast and exploded, thereby causing damage to property, compensation will be given to the owners of the property in question, or whether the loss caused by mines exploding will be recognised as a basis of claim under the Government's scheme of insurance against damage by aircraft and bombardment?
Damage to property on land, caused by mines which are washed ashore is not covered by the policies issued under the Government aircraft and bombardment insurance scheme.
Does the Government propose to do anything to meet this case, because the people hurt by it see little difference between a shell or bomb dropped from a ship and a mine which drifts ashore?
The question is put to me purely as a matter of insurance. The policies which have been issued relate to a strictly defined area, and we should have to extend the area of our insurance in the directions indicated by the hon. Gentleman.
Does not Question 17 directly ask whether the loss caused by mines exploding will be recognised as a basis of claim? Does not that mean in future? Will not the right hon. Gentleman answer that question?
Yes, I have answered it.
Labour Exchanges (Staff War Bonus)
asked whether the clerical staff of the Labour Exchanges and unemployment insurance department requested on the 8th February that the question of the grant of a war bonus be referred to arbitration; if so, whether such request has been granted; and, if a reply has not been accorded, whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to agree to arbitration in this case?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The request is still under consideration by His Majesty's Government.
Diamond Exports Committee
asked the names and nationalities prior to 1st August, 1914, of the members of the Diamond Committee?
The Diamond Exports Committee consists of Mr. A. Mosely, C.M.G., Mr. L. Breitmeyer, and Mr. V. A. Litkie. Mr. Mosely and Mr. Litkie were British subjects at the date mentioned. Mr. Breitmeyer was naturalised in October, 1914. I understand that he is of German birth, but he has lived in this country for many years.
I take this opportunity of expressing my appreciation of the loyal and conscientious way in which the members of the Committee have performed their work.
British Steamers (Charters to Foreigners)
asked the names of the British shipowners who have during the past twelve months handed over British trawlers on time-charter to subjects of other countries?
It was explained to the hon. Gentleman on 16th March that this information was supplied for Government purposes only, and therefore could not properly be published without the consent of the parties concerned. Moreover, I do not think that publication could serve any useful purpose.
Steel Helmets
asked the Minister of Munitions if he has received any reports on the steel helmets supplied to the troops; if these reports are satisfactory; and, if so, whether the necessary steps are being taken to see that all our soldiers are provided with such helmets?
Reports of a very satisfactory nature have been received on the steel helmets, and the necessary steps have been taken to obtain a supply sufficient to meet the requirements of the War Office. Over 300,000 have already been delivered.
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he can state what progress has been made in the provision of steel helmets for troops in the field; whether a satisfactory pattern has at length been definitely approved; and whether he can give any explanation of the delay that has occurred in the issue of orders for the manufacture of this necessary article of equipment?
A satisfactory pattern was approved some five months ago. Changes are being made to meet the improvements suggested by experience. No avoidable delay has taken place in dealing with the matter. As I have already pointed out, over 300,000 of them have been supplied.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the whole of the French Army, which is much larger than the British Army, has been completely equipped with these helmets?
Munitions
Inventions Department
asked the Minister of Munitions whether the investigations of the Inventions Department of the Ministry of Munitions have resulted in the adoption and manufacture of devices which can be utilised for the advantage of the country in the conduct of the War; and whether any such devices are actually in use?
It would not be in the public interest to enter into details with regard to the work of the Munitions Inventions Department, but I can assure my hon. Friend that practical results of value have already been obtained, and more are in prospect.
Enfield Small Arms Factory
asked the Minister of Munitions if he can state the reasons why the men who are doing excavating and concreting work on the new building at Enfield Small Arms Factory are not having their unemployed books stamped?
My right hon. Friend has inquired into this matter, and finds that the failure to pay unemployment insurance contributions in this case was due to a misunderstanding. Steps have now been taken to put the matter in order.
Women's Demonstration, Westminster
asked the Minister of Munitions the nature of the arrangement between himself and Mrs. Pankhurst for the women's demonstration at Westminster for which they were jointly responsible; the limit, if any, fixed upon the liability of public funds for the expenditure thereon; whether any such limit has been reached or exceeded; and whether the balance of £205 7s. 11d. remaining due to one trader for goods supplied for that demonstration is to be paid out of public funds?
I have nothing to add to the replies already given on this subject.
The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the question on the Paper, whether the balance is to be paid out of public funds?
There is no balance.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the approval of the Treasury was obtained for the expenditure out of public money on the women's demonstration organised at Westminster by the Minister of Munitions and Mrs. Pankhurst; what limit was fixed on the amount; what requirement as to vouchers; and who constituted the Treasury when the approval was given?
The Treasury approved generally expenditure within certain limits on advertising and propaganda in respect of munition work at the discretion of the Minister of Munitions, and consequently were not concerned with specific proposals falling within those limits.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what the amount was that the Treasury sanctioned?
I think that question should be addressed to the Minister of Munitions.
He has refused to answer it.
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the question, "who constituted the Treasury when the approval was given"?
If the hon. Gentleman had done me the favour of listening to my answer he would see that the answer to the first part is in the negative, and therefore I assumed there was no occasion to answer the latter part.
Is there any means of finding out the exact amount?
Yes, it would certainly appear in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General.
Has the right hon. Gentleman any reason to doubt that the money was usefully spent in the public interest?
Questions
Enemy Aliens
asked the Home Secretary if an alien enemy of the name of Joseph Mock is allowed to carry on his business in London; and if he will state the reason why he has not been interned?
This man is an Austrian who has been resident for many years in this country and has a British wife and children. He was exempted from internment after careful inquiries and on the recommendation of the Advisory Committee.
What was the reason for exemption?
The case was brought before the Advisory Committee, and the Home Office acted upon the advice of the committee, who were appointed to advise the Department.
Naval and Military Air Services
Admiralty Air Department
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that it has been part of the policy of the Air Department of the Admiralty in recent months to use trained pilots for clerical work; and whether, in the interests of the country, he will take steps to secure that men trained at great expense, and who are anxious to fulfil their true professional duties, shall not be employed on comparatively unskilled work?
Since the establishment of the Air Department it has been necessary to employ trained pilots in the administrative work of the Department in the same manner as, for instance, qualified gunnery and torpedo officers are employed in the Naval Ordnance Department. The Admiralty fully recognise the importance of not withdrawing pilots from the active work for which they have been trained, and this point is kept constantly in mind.
Is it not the fact that 130 pilots have been employed at the Air Department in clerical work owing to the scarcity of clerks?
It is not the policy to employ pilots medically fit on purely clerical duties. They have other duties. Certain of these, as my hon. and gallant Friend knows, are employed on the dangerous work of testing new machines. Certain of them are medically unfit, having been incapacitated by accidents. But as I have said, the whole matter is being kept in mind.
Was the First Lord aware of the fact that so many pilots were employed as clerks when he said that they were short of pilots?
Is it true that 130 of these people were employed as stated by the hon. Member?
The hon. Member did not state that.
Yes, he did.
Joint Air Committee
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the statement of Lord Derby that, as chairman of the Air Committee, he possesses neither power nor responsibility, he will inform the House exactly what are the functions of the Committee and what duties devolve upon it; will he state how often it meets; and what practical results are expected from its deliberations?
With reference to the first and third parts of the question I would refer the hon. Member to a speech of my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for War in this House on the 16th February last, in which he announced the formation of a "Joint Air Committee" and indicated its duties. The functions and powers of this Committee were more particularly described in a speech made in another place on the 10th of this month by my Noble Friend the Marquess of Lansdowne. In regard to the second part of the question, the Committee meet as often as will conduce to the most efficient transaction of their business. At present they meet about twice a week.
Is it proposed that their duties and powers shall be increased?
I cannot answer that question without notice.
Raid on Zeebrugge
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can give an assurance to the House that the Allied raid on Zeebrugge was not, so far as this country is concerned, an isolated and sporadic act of offensive air warfare, but is part of a well-considered plan for vigorous and repeated attacks on enemy aircraft bases and other points of strategic importance?
The Government have every intention of using to the utmost the air resources at their disposal for offensive as well as defensive operations.
National Union of Ship Stewards
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether his attention has been drawn to a protest of the National Union of Ship Stewards, etc., with regard to the employment of Chinese on the Admiralty transport "Highland Monarch"; whether he is aware that, although British seamen were available, the signing on of these Chinamen has been defended by the Director of Transports on the ground that they were from Hong Kong, and therefore came within the term British-coloured; whether he is aware that when the agreement of November, 1915, that British seamen should have preference was entered into it was understood that this pretext would not be used; and whether, in order to avoid any friction, he will take steps to see that the agreement is strictly adhered to?
The Admiralty notice of November, 1915, was worded as follows:
"In Admiralty transports, crews should so far as possible be either British or British coloured.
No other nationalities should be engaged unless, it is found impossible without delay to the Transport Service to secure crews of British and British, coloured persons.
This rule shall not necessarily apply in the case of any ship which at the time of requisitioning had on board a crew of Asiatics signed on at an. Asiatic port."
Inquiry showed that a full crew of British firemen was not available when the crew was engaged in Liverpool. In these circumstances the employment of other ratings became necessary, and as this, vessel has been accustomed for years past to carry Chinese no reason was, or is now seen, for not allowing Hong Kong Chinamen to be employed.
Bank Holiday
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the strain that has been put upon bank clerks since the outbreak of war, and that holidays during that period have been reduced to a minimum, and Saturday being a half-holiday, he will consider the possibility of declaring 22nd April, the Saturday before Easter Sunday, a Bank Holiday?
Yes, Sir, the Government have decided to make the 22nd April a Bank Holiday.
Venereal Diseases
asked the Prime Minister if it is the intention of the Government to adopt the Report of Lord Sydenham's Committee on Venereal Diseases; and, considering that history shows a recrudescence of this disease at the end of every great war, whether he will take steps to put into immediate action the recommendations of this Committee?
The recommendations of the Royal Commission are now under consideration.
Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to secure that on the discussion of the Army (Annual) Bill some time will be given, or some opportunity afforded, for dealing with this question?
Departmental Economy (Retired Civil Servants)
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been directed to the fact that Professor J. H. Longford, formerly His Majesty's Consul in Japan, at the beginning of the War vainly offered his gratuitous services to four Departments of the Government; and whether the services of this gentleman and of many other retired and pensioned officials could be utilised with great advantage to the State by setting free men of military age in Government Departments, and also effecting a substantial reduction in public expenditure?
I have seen Professor Longford's letter in the "Times." I can assure the hon. Member that the services of retired Civil servants are utilised in Government Departments wherever possible.
If retired Civil servants again offer their services, will they be accepted?
I am perfectly certain that, where suitable, their services will be employed. I know that they are employed to a great extent.
War Office Appointments (Salaries)
asked the Prime Minister whether he is able at present to give the date of the day to be allotted to the Debate on the salary of the Secretary of State for War?
I cannot yet name a date.
asked whether any part of the salary of the Secretary of State for War is paid out of contributions obtained directly from Egypt?
No part of the salary of the Secretary of State for War is paid out of contributions obtained directly from Egypt.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in regard to new appointments to posts in the War Office, it is thought advisable, in cases where the appointees have relinquished positions carry- ing higher salaries than those of their new offices, to pay them at the higher rate; whether, if this system be approved, it will be extended to privates in the Army; and whether, if legislation be necessary to secure this extension, he will ascertain the probabilities of a Bill to that purpose being accepted as an agreed measure?
Each case of this character is dealt with on its merits.
Does that mean that the Secretary of State for War is taking money which he has not earned, and in what grade of the hierarchy do the principles of common honesty obtain?
Poultry Raising
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether the Board contemplate the early issue of a comprehensive handbook or pamphlet giving advice upon the various details of British poultry raising and egg production?
A pamphlet of the kind referred to by my hon. Friend is now in the Press, and will shortly be published at the price of 3d., post free.
asked what was the import into the United Kingdom of dead poultry in hundredweights and eggs in long hundreds in the years ending March, 1914 and 1915, respectively?
The imports of dead poultry into the United Kingdom for the two years referred to were 258,158 cwts. and 175,638 cwts., respectively, and the imports of eggs for the same periods were 21,996,408 and 16,374,281 great hundreds, respectively.
German Treasury Bills
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can give any details of the Treasury bills now being issued by the German Government as to the dates of maturity, denominations, rate of interest, and issue price?
I have no information on these points.
War Loans (Income Tax)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the sum allowed by way of discount to individual subscribers who paid up in full on application to the 3½ per cent. and 4½ per cent. War Loans is assessed to Income Tax?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for the St. Augustine's Division of Kent on the 14th July last. It depends upon the particular circumstances of each case whether the discount should be treated as capital or income.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give the Section under which the charge is regulated?
I can if the hon. Gentleman will give notice.
Bank Overdrafts
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether an order has recently been issued to Irish banks to refuse overdrafts to customers or any order or communication affecting their business; and, if so, will he state its terms and the statutory authority for its issue?
The Treasury has from time to time advised banks in all parts of the United Kingdom as to various classes of transactions which it is thought desirable either to encourage or to discourage in the national interest. No distinction has, however, been made between Irish banks and banks in other parts of the United Kingdom, nor have any orders or instructions been given except the Proclamations and public notices relating to trading with the enemy.
Are we to understand that the Treasury have issued instructions to banks not to grant overdrafts or encourage them? What about the people who live on overdrafts?
The right hon. Gentleman has not said definitely whether the banks have been instructed not to allow overdrafts.
I said it would depend upon the circumstances of the case.
The question is, have the instructions been issued?.
I have given an answer. In some cases the answer would be in the affirmative and in other cases in the negative. It would depend upon the circumstances of the case.
Investments Abroad
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that considerable sums are being remitted out of this country for investment abroad, both in American securities and in the securities of European countries; and whether he will state what steps he has taken or will take in the national interests to prevent this being done and to secure that funds which accrue abroad to British subjects or companies shall not be invested abroad, but remitted to this country?
I am glad to have the opportunity of stating the policy of the Government on this subject.
Whilst the Treasury has no desire to interfere with remittances abroad for the settlement of current commercial obligations, I regard it as contrary to the national interest that, during the War, remittances should be made from this country for investment abroad in any form whatever. It is also most desirable that moneys which accrue abroad to British subjects or firms should be brought back to this country, and that holders of foreign securities should, when practicable, realise their holdings and invest the proceeds in British Securities.
In particular, I would point out that the remittance of money to America for the purchase of American Securities and reinvestment in America of money available for remittance to this country is directly opposed to the objects of the Treasury's scheme for purchasing American Securities.
Securities purchased abroad cannot be dealt in on the Stock Exchange under the Temporary Regulations. Although these rules only apply to members of the Stock Exchange, most financial houses have throughout voluntarily observed the restrictions, and I rely upon a continuance of their assistance in discouraging investments abroad.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware how much money is going abroad, and is it a large sum?
No, Sir. I am afraid I have no statistics upon that point.
Is the right hon. Gentleman taking any practical steps to secure enforcement of those desirable ends?
Yes; so far as we can by communicating with everybody concerned in business of this kind.
May I ask whether "abroad" in these cases means the Colonies?
Yes, only and except in special cases, as in the case of investments, for instance, in the French Loan, which was specially invited by us; the rule is of general application.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the desirability of opening a census or register of securities of this kind.
No.
It would require an Act of Parliament.
Soldiers' Investments (Income Tax)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the case of men who have been or are likely to be called to the Colours, and who in consequence are obliged to give up business and realise their capital, in many cases investing the same in War Loan Stock or other securities, with the result that they have or will in the future have to pay Income Tax at the unearned income rate; and whether he can take any steps to relieve such men of the higher rate of tax?
So far as concerns any question of relief from Income Tax the case of business men joining His Majesty's Forces was specially considered early in the War, and the relief it was decided to give was embodied in Section 13 of the Finance Act, 1914 (Session 2), the provisions of which were re-enacted for the current year.
Does that cover the particular point raised?
I think so, but I will inquire further.
Customs and Excise (Preventive Men)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will say what is the weekly wage of preventive men in the Customs and Excise; whether a war bonus of 3s. per week has recently been granted to them for the duration of the War; what is the average weekly wage of watchers in the same service; and whether, in view of the many responsible duties now performed by these men, he is prepared to grant a similar concession to this latter class?
The weekly wages of preventive men are 18s. by 1s. 6d. to 36s. a week, and in addition star allowances of 1s. a week are granted to efficient and well-conducted men after five, nine, thirteen, seventeen, twenty-one, and twenty-five years' service respectively, making the maximum pay 42s. a week. In consideration of the special duties imposed upon this grade in consequence of the War they have been granted special temporary allowances of 3s. a week (within their normal maximum of 42s. a week) for the duration of the War. No similar special duties have been placed upon the watchers, and there is therefore no case for a similar concession to that class. The weekly wages of watchers are stated in the answer given to my hon. Friend on the 16th instant.
Is it in consequence of some of the watchers receiving very handsome pensions that the authorities refuse to grant pensions to the preventive men?
I do not think there is any similarity between the watchers and the preventive men. I shall be very glad to consider any representations my hon. Friend may make.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some of the watchers are receiving pensions as high as 50s. a week, and that other men doing exactly the same work have no pensions at all? These are the men who ought to be considered.
Excess Profits Tax
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the fact that the surveyor of taxes in Dublin, in reference to the assessment for the Excess Profits Duty, has informed persons concerned that, in order to gain the benefit provided by Part II. of the Fourth Schedule to the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915, it is necessary for the taxpayer to prove that all the three last pre-war trade years were each of them years of abnormal depression; whether his attention has been called to paragraph (3) of the Fourth Schedule to the Act, which makes, as the test of abnormal depression, the average profits of the three years mentioned, provided those average profits are 25 per cent. lower than those of the preceding three years; and whether directions will be given to withdraw the information referred to and to act on the statutory provision in the latter part of the paragraph mentioned?
I am obliged to my hon. Friend for calling my attention to this case. The Commissioners of Inland Revenue inform me that the view attributed to the surveyor of taxes at Dublin is not one which they would be prepared to adopt in administering the Excess Profits Duty, and special instructions will be issued accordingly.
War Office Directorates
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, with reference to an Order issued to officers at the War Office on the 1st February, 1916, in which those officers are designated as the "Directorate," he will state if there is any precedent for this novel appellation; and whether, in view of such a term conveying a false impression with reference to the State, he will see that it is discontinued?
The War Office is organised into different divisions which are termed Directorates, and the personnel comprising the Staff of a Directorate are sometimes spoken of as the Directorate. The use of this colloquial expression does not imply—as my hon. Friend seems to apprehend—any dark designs against the established estates of the realm.
Has the right hon. Gentleman taken into consideration the fact that those who usurped the power of the Government and the State in the French Revolution designated themselves a "Directorate"?
Order, order! We have more serious matters to consider.
Mesopotamia Campaign
asked whether any public notice is intended to be taken of the speech of General Aylmer to the 5th Buffs Territorial Regiment in Mesopotamia; and what were the losses in officers and men on the 7th and 19th of January?
This question has reference to the period prior to the 16th February, when the direction of the operations was transferred to the War Office. I have ascertained, however, that in the India Office, as in the War Office, there is no knowledge of the speech referred to in the first part of the question.
Any answer to the last part of the question would imply comment on the speech General Aylmer is stated to have made, but as I have not seen the terms of that speech obviously I cannot make any comment, either indirect or direct, on what is alleged to have been said.
Will steps be taken to recognise the great gallantry of this regiment?
That does not arise out of the question.
The following Question stood on the Paper in the name of Mr. FELL:
81. To ask the Under-Secretary of State for War if he has received Reports of the inadequacy of the medical service in the Mesopotamia Expedition; if additional help and medical stores are on the way; if there are large supplies of doctors and stores in Egypt which might have been available; and, if so, will he say why these were not sent where they are so much needed?
This subject was dealt with in part by the Secretary of State for India yesterday.
May I supplement what was said by the Secretary of State for India yesterday?
Medical arrangements in Mesopotamia are primarily under the control of the military authorities in India, but the Com- mander-in-Chief in India has been informed that the Army Council would render him any assistance in medical personnel and equipment. All demands have been met without delay. One hundred and twenty medical officers, including forty from Egypt and 205 other ranks, Royal Army Medical Corps, have arrived or are on their way. In addition, one British General Hospital of 1,040 beds and one British Stationary Hospital of 400 beds have been sent from Egypt. Both these units were fully equipped. Four Indian General Hospitals of 500 beds each, which were in this country, have also been sent. Two of these were fully equipped, and the remaining two consisted of personnel only. From France the Lahore Indian Stationary Hospital of 200 beds and thirty-three medical officers are under orders. A motor-ambulance convoy—fifty cars with complete personnel—is nearly ready, and will leave for Mesopotamia early next month.
Have any of them arrived?
I have not had any intimation to that effect.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will say since what dates all military and medical questions connected with the British expedition to Mesopotamia have been taken over by the War Office; and whether all matters relating to that expedition from its inception can be discussed upon Army Estimates?
The new arrangements for the control of operations in Mesopotamia came into force from the 16th February, 1916. The effect of them is not, however, quite correctly stated by my hon. Friend. The Commander-in-Chief in India receives instructions with regard to the military operations in Mesopotamia from the Chief of the Imperial General Staff in exactly the same manner as the Commanders-in-Chief in other theatres, but India remains the main base of the Forces in Mesopotamia, which is administered by the Commander-in-Chief in India. Such requirements of the Force as India cannot meet are supplied by the War Office from other parts of the Empire, so far as considerations of general policy do not render this impracticable. The point raised in the last part of the question is, I think, one for the authorities of the House to determine.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether Sir William Vincent and General Bingley have proceeded to Mesopotamia to conduct the inquiry into the alleged breakdown of medical arrangements; and whether these public servants have any special knowledge or experience of medical requirements for an Eastern campaign?
The Commission, after taking evidence in Bombay, left for Mesopotamia on the 10th March. Sir William Vincent is a man of wide administrative experience and has proved efficient in high and responsible official posts, and Major-General Bingley has had a great deal of Staff experience and is well suited for an inquiry into alleged deficiencies in the organisation of supplies. I think these gentlemen are amply qualified to elucidate the facts and to make a fair, complete, and judicial report upon them, having reference to all aspects of the question. They can procure any technical and expert evidence they desire.
Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly answer the last part of the question?
Army Pay Books
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether no Army pay book is given to a man on joining the Army, but such book is given only when he is sent abroad; if so, what is the reason for this practice; and whether, in order to avoid the differences which arise between a man and his paymaster, he will consider the desirability of issuing the pay book to the man immediately on his joining his unit?
The pay book issued to the man is a substitute, necessary to meet the conditions of active service, for the more formal account kept by the unit at home. It is not adapted to home service conditions.
Will the hon. Gentleman consider whether it is not desirable that a soldier should have some means of checking the amount of money which he receives? Is he also aware that a great many persons apparently have no idea of the net amount which they ought to receive in view of deductions and certain allowances?
I understand that the information is much fuller and more readily available in the case of soldiers serving at home than in the case of company accounts. The information is much fuller than that which can be carried in their papers. As a matter of fact, the difficulty which soldiers have in ascertaining the state of their accounts arises from the fact that they are not always aware of the charges against those accounts made by the proper authorities.
Have soldiers access to the accounts which are kept? Is the information available to them to enable them to check the amount?
Yes, I think it is readily available to them on inquiry.
Operations in Gallipoli (Official Papers)
asked when the Papers relating to the last-weeks of the operations in Gallipoli will be published; and if a further list of honours in connection with these operations and the withdrawal may be expected?
I cannot name a date for the publication of the Papers. The list of honours has already been published.
Soldiers on Leave (Route)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he can state the reason for the military regulation which compels all ranks serving at Etaples and Boulogne and in the neighbouring hospital camps (except the staff) to travel by the forty-hour route viâ Havre to England, instead of the six-hour route viâ Boulogne, when going on or returning from short leave of absence; and whether he will consider the advisability of modifying this regulation in the interest of public economy as well as in that of the men concerned?
I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for the St. Augustine's Division on the 30th November, 1915. It is in the discretion of the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief to decide which men are to go by the Boulogne route. If the statement in the question is correct and the men referred to were sent in future by the Boulogne route, it would only mean displacing men now going viâ Boulogne-and sending them viâ Havre. It is not. possible to send everyone viâ Boulogne.
Inns of Court Officers' Training Corps
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether a number of cadets under training in the Inns of Court Officers' Training Corps were recently declared by the War Office to be unfit to receive commissions without being subjected to any examination as a test of fitness; whether they were questioned by the inspecting, officer as to their religious belief but not as to their military knowledge; whether there were any adverse reports concerning, these cadets from the officer commanding the training corps; and whether any of the vacancies created by their rejection have been filled up by nomination of any officer at the War Office?
The cadets to whom I think my hon. and gallant Friend alludes were interviewed by a War Office Board. Each cadet was seen separately and asked a variety of questions which did not include questions as to their religious belief. No adverse or favourable reports from the Officer Commanding were asked for or received concerning any cadet. I am afraid I do not understand the last part of the question.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have statements from these young men that they were asked questions with regard to their religious belief? Will he explain what interest the War Office has in their religious belief, seeing that these gentlemen have no conscientious objection to serving?
My hon. and gallant Friend's information is in direct contradiction to that which has reached me. It is inconceivable to me that questions in relation to religion should be asked of candidates for commissions.
Reserve and Territorial Force (Officers' Pay)
asked what are the rates of pay for command and extra duty of Reserve (service battalions) and third-line Territorial Force battalions of officers in command, second in command, adjutant, and assistant-adjutant, respectively?
The rates per day at present authorised are:—
Skilled Mechanics (Army Pay)
asked whether a skilled mechanic, who has hitherto been debarred from joining the Mechanical Transport Corps or any other branch of the Army by order of the Minister of Munitions, will be entitled when called to the Colours under the Derby scheme to the rate of pay formerly prevailing for a mechanic or motor driver, namely, 6s. per day; or, if not, what will be the rate of pay for skilled men put on this class of work?
No, Sir. The 6s. rate was only given to meet a temporary emergency. Such men will receive the normal regulated rates of the corps which they join.
Alien Enemy (Visits from Business Manager)
asked whether Herr Kastner, a German interned at the Alexandra Palace, is allowed to receive weekly visits from his business manager, so that he may the better conduct the working of the firm of Kastner and Company, Limited, and preserve its business and goodwill until after the War; and if the business is entirely a German one and tinder the inspection of the Board of Trade?
A representative of Kastner and Company is allowed to visit Kastner once a month. The remainder of the question should be addressed to my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade.
British Prisoners of War
asked whether, for the purpose of exchange of civilian pri- soners with Germany, each Power is the judge of the military unfitness of prisoners; what is the definition of military unfitness which has been adopted by the War Office; and whether any modification of this definition has recently been made or is likely to be made in the near future?
Yes, Sir, each Power is the judge in this matter. Military unfitness is held to be unfitness for the duties of a soldier or sailor. The latest instruction on the subject lays down that in the case of a man over forty-five years his age is to be an important consideration when judging of his fitness or otherwise for military duties. It is difficult to speak of the future.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War what is the total number of German civilians now interned in Great Britain and of British interned in Germany; will he state what relation the number of German civilians already released as militarily unfit bears to the total number of those interned in Great Britain; and what is the the corresponding proportion between British civilians released for the same reasons to the total number interned in Germany?
I have ascertained from the Home Office that the total number of German civilians interned in Great Britain is 26,291. I have ascertained from the Foreign Office that the total number of British civilians interned in Germany is, approximately, 4,000. The number of German civilians repatriated is—, or a proportion of 1 in 53. The number of British civilians repatriated from Germany is 377, or a proportion of, approximately, 1 in 10.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the number of returned prisoners from Ruhleben Camp has diminished monthly, and that only seven were sent back in March, although over 100 have been passed as medically and militarily unfit by German doctors; and will he take the necessary steps to expedite the return of these British subjects?
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs has asked me to reply to this question. The number of British subjects repatriated from Ruhleben as unfit for military service are as follows: September, 10; October, 23; November, 119; December, 143; January, 66; February, 10; March, 6. He is unaware how many British civilians have been passed by German doctors as medically unfit; the German Government are being continually pressed through the United States Ambassador to repatriate those British subjects who are eligible for repatriation as unfit for military service. His Majesty's Government desire to expedite exchange as much as possible, and fresh steps are being taken to effect it.
Would my right hon. Friend suggest to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs that if more Germans were repatriated here we should get Englishmen back more readily from Germany?
I will communicate that to my right hon. Friend.
Royal Army Medical Corps
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether any and, if so, what steps have been taken to arrange that doctors with special experience in different branches of medicine and surgery who have joined the Royal Army Medical Corps are being so employed by the War Office as to utilize to the best advantage their special qualifications?
I can assure the hon. Gentleman that every effort is made to employ gentlemen who join the Royal Army Medical Corps in such a way as to give their individual qualifications every consideration. But I must, at the same time, point out that it is sometimes not practicable to use their services exclusively in one special line of practice as the need for special work is limited. My information is that these gentlemen willingly give their attention to work outside their special qualifications when work of that kind is awaiting attention.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the Government will consider the advisability of reconstituting the Advisory Board to co-operate with the General Superintendent in the further organisation of the medical service; and, if so, whether he will have regard to the suggestion that has been made by a number of medical men that such a board should consist of some lay representatives?
I take note of the hon. Member's suggestion, but I cannot admit that a case has been made out for interfering with the organisation as it at present exists.
Is it not the fact that the Advisory Board was, in point of fact, in existence when the War broke out, and that the neglect to call it together was without any proper authority whatever?
No, Sir, I think my hon. Friend is misinformed as to the facts. I did give him a description of what occurred at the outbreak of the War in the Debate the other evening. It was quite within the competency of the military authorities to suspend the activities of the Advisory Board as and when they might think proper, but I think it is true that the Board had been sitting up to that time.
Enemy Aircraft Raids
( by Private Notice ): May I ask the right hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether his attention has been drawn to the serious charge brought yesterday by the hon. Member for Brentford (Mr. Joynson-Hicks) against the naval officers stationed at Ramsgate, charging them with delay and neglect, and whether he is in a position to deny the truth of those charges?
I have just received notice of the question. I am aware of the statements made by the hon. Member for Brentford. Of course they will be inquired into, but I have not had the opportunity of inquiring into them yet.
I beg to give notice that I will raise the question on the Adjournment to-night, when the hon. Member for Brentford is present.
Westminster Hall Roof
asked the First Commissioner of Works in what state relative to the whole undertaking is the work now in progress in the roof of Westminster Hall; and whether he can fix an approximate date for its completion?
The position of the works of preservation is as follows: One truss has been completely reinforced and pieced up with new oak; it has also been treated with preservative. One truss has been half completed as in the preceding case. Two other trusses have been shored up, and the steelwork is in preparation for fixing at an early date. Two other trusses have been partly shored up. The flèche is nearly completed and ready for fixing. A considerable amount of preliminary work has been done, such as the ordering of oak, the selection and ordering of slates; and the two steel stages for shoring up all the trusses as dealt with are complete. Thirteen trusses in all have to be dealt with. No date can be given for completion.
Poor Rate Collector (Eligibility as Parish Clerk)
asked whether a poor rate collector in the employ of a rural district council whose district comprises several parishes is eligible for election as a member of the parish council of one of those parishes if otherwise qualified to hold office?
I may say that poor rate collectors are not employed by rural district councils. I am advised, however, that such an officer in the employment of a board of guardians would not be ineligible for election as a parish councillor for a parish in the union.
Anthrax
asked the Home Secretary if his attention has been called to the report of an inquiry relating to the death of Mr. George Linfoot, of Bradford, who died of anthrax contracted during the course of his employment at the firm of Campbell and Harrison, Limited, Shipley, Yorks, a branch of the Woolcombers' Syndicate; if he will ascertain whether the deceased man had been blending or making a pile of wool, which had not previously been sorted on a hurdle and over a fan; and if he will state the number of deaths from anthrax contracted in the course of employment at Messrs. Campbell and Harrison's during the fifteen years 1900 to 1915, inclusive, and the number of cases which have occurred at the whole of the combined firms of Woolcombers, Limited, during the same period, distinguishing between different years and fatal and non-fatal cases?
I have received reports on the case which show that the deceased was employed in opening and sorting wool and in warehouse work, but he does not appear to have been engaged, as suggested, in blending unsorted wool. The reports disclose several breaches of the Regulations, and it is proposed to take proceedings against the firm. The number of fatal cases at these works during the period 1900–1915 was nineteen, and the number for the combined firms was twenty-nine. I will have the yearly figures for fatal and non-fatal cases printed with the OFFICIAL REPORT.—[ See Written Answers. ]
Bills Presented
Marriage (Scotland) Bill,—"to amend the Law relating to the registration of irregular Marriages in Scotland and to amend, during the continuance of the present War, the Marriage Notice (Scotland) Act, 1878, so far as applying to persons serving in the Naval and Military Forces of the Crown," presented by Mr. MCKINNON WOOD; supported by the Lord Advocate; to be read a second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 9.]
Local Government (Emergency Provisions) Bill,—"to make provision with respect to officers and servants of local authorities serving in or with His Majesty's Forces and to make various administrative provisions with a view to economy in money and labour in connection with the present War," presented by Mr. HAYES FISHER; supported by Mr. Herbert Lewis and the Solicitor-General; to be read a second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 10.]
Imperial Institute (Management) Bill,—"to provide for transferring the management of the Imperial Institute from the Board of Trade to the Colonial Office; and for other purposes connected therewith," presented by Mr. BONAR LAW; supported by Mr. Steel-Maitland and Mr. Harcourt; to be read a second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 11.]
Private Bills (Group A)
Sir WILLIAM HOWELL DAVIES reported from the Committee on Group A of Private Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, the Committee had adjourned till Wednesday next, at half-part Eleven of the clock.
Report to lie upon the Table.
Orders of the Day
Business of the House
May I, by leave of the House, ask the right hon. Gentleman the business for next week?
On Tuesday we shall take the Third Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill, and the Second Reading of the Army (Annual) Bill.
On Wednesday we shall take the Second Readings of the Local Government (Emergency Provisions) Bill, the Imperial Institute (Management) Bill, and the Marriage (Scotland) Bill.
On Thursday, Supply (Office of Works and other Votes) will be taken.
Can my right hon. Friend say when the Government will be in a position to introduce the proposals relating to the civil liabilities of soldiers and sailors?
I am not yet in a position to answer that, but I hope quite soon.
If the Naval and Military War Pensions Bill is not reached today, will it be put down for Wednesday?
If not disposed of to-day, it can be put down for Tuesday.
Why not Wednesday?
What other Votes in Supply will be put down for discussion next week?
I think that question had better be put down some time early next week. We are not in a position to arrange them just at the moment.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Prime Minister may be expected to be here next week?
I do not think my right hon. Friend will be here, certainly not at the early part of next week, because he has to take the journey to Paris to attend that very important conference.
Resolved, "That this House, at its rising this day, do adjourn until Tuesday next."—[ Mr. Lloyd George. ]
Supply
Civil Services and Revenue Departments Estimates, 1916–17
Order for Committee read.
Motion made and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
Defence of the Realm Act
Trials in Camera
I beg to move, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, and to insert instead thereof the words "the administration of the Defence of the Realm Act has often been more rigorous than the nature or seriousness of the cases justified, and that a policy which includes the trial in camera of persons charged for expressions of opinion in speech or writing, or the suppression of newspapers without trial, or the imprisonment without trial of any class of British citizens at the discretion of the Executive, is dangerous to the liberty of the subject."
When the Defence of the Realm Act was passed in this House no doubt the House of Commons did not fully grasp all that it implied. It was imagined at that time that it was an Act for the purpose of dealing with spies, and also for the purpose of a limited censorship on naval and military news, but, after the Act had been in operation for a month or two, there was a startling Debate in another place, the most remarkable feature of which was a statement by Lord Halsbury that this was undoubtedly the most unconstitutional thing that had ever happened in this country. The result of that was that some of the dangers to personal liberty which the Act contained were revealed, and alterations were made in that Act which restored to some extent to British citizens the right of trial by jury. But, even in the early days of this War, there were those of us in this House who viewed this Act with anxiety. Great wars in the past have not as a rule consorted with liberty, and the liberty that always suffers first is liberty of expression and the freedom of the Press. On that freedom all other liberty depends, because knowledge is essential and discussion is essential if you are going to preserve freedom. Consequently, all those elements in Government who believe in drastic methods, who seek silent obedience to authority, and who are in love with oppression, are apt to strike first at freedom of discussion. Several of us in this House, therefore, at a very early stage asked the Government what they meant by this Act and how they intended to administer it. We got several very definite answers. On 26th August, 1914, I asked a question of the then Home Secretary, who is now the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I said: in camera in Manchester and London. In Manchester eventually only a certain number of pamphlets of private individuals were suppressed, which I cannot go into now; but in London, after a secret trial of two or three days, three pamphlets of the Independent Labour party were ordered to be destroyed. In the first place, the trial, when these pamphlets were suppressed, was secret. There was no statement to those who were prosecuted as to what the offending passages were. The defendants, went into court without knowing what they were accused of, and to this day, as the trial was secret, nobody knows what was complained of, and why those pamphlets were suppressed. That is to say, literature of a political organisation which was opposed to the Government was suppressed by secret trial without anybody knowing the reason of it. Now it is only possible to speak in general terms, therefore, about the character of these pamphlets. One of them is a pamphlet called "How the War Came." I have read this. It can be objected to, I am certain, on no ground except that it is illegal to take any view of the outbreak of the War except the orthodox Government view. It is a perfectly temperate statement. The argument is supported from public documents of the various Governments, and the facts cited, I think, are correct, but the deductions, of course, are a matter of opinion. It takes the anti-Government view that the British Government is partly responsible for the ontbreak of the War. Obviously, political liberty is not a reality in this country if those who in reasonable, even if incisive, language challenge the opinions of the Government are not allowed to express themselves in pamphlets and in speeches.
4.0 P.M.
It has never been the British view that politics should be confined to those who approve of the views of the Government, and it has not been consistantly acted upon by the Government, even at the period that they were prosecuting the Independent Labour party. While attacking the Independent Labour party they left critics, who proceeded almost exactly on the same lines, free from any interference. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about Bernard Shaw?"] I have got here a publication which a great many Members in this House know, the "Candid Review." In the number of May, 1915, that is to say, before the prosecution of these Independent Labour party pamphlets took place, there appeared two articles which give the view of the possible Member for Market Harborough, of how the War came, and, I defy any man to read them and to say they are not more unmeasured, and that they are not more likely to make people believe that those governing them are incapable and untrustworthy men than those pamphlets of the Independent Labour party which were suppressed. I am not, of course, saying the "Candid Review" ought to be suppressed, but I am pointing out that the literature in this review is just as bitter and just as deserving of suppression as the Independent Labour party pamphlets. The article on "Indecision" is a discussion of the Foreign Secretary's vacillation and inability to make up his mind, which, in Mr. Bowles's view, was one of the causes of the War. There follows an article on "The War—so Far," in which he charges the Foreign Secretary, the Prime Minister, and Lord Haldane with following a secret policy which made war inevitable. He is constantly using the word "secrecy" and "deception," and he summaries the whole in a statement like this:—
I should like to say a word about another of these pamphlets entitled, "Belgium and the Scrap of Paper." No one can call this a pro-German pamphlet. It begins with as complete a condemnation of Germany coming through Belgium as the most enthusiastic patriot could desire, and about half a page of abuse of Germany. The object of this pamphlet is to point out to what extent England had an obligation in regard to this question, and its view is that the War was not entered upon by Great Britain for the defence of Belgium, but as part of our general policy, and but for this it is extremely likely that Belgium might have been saved. From the point of view of the Government that is heretical, because the view of the Prime Minister, the Minister of Munitions, and the present Home Secretary is that if it had not been for Belgium we should have had no War. It is very inconvenient to have organs of public opinion saying that the War was part of a general policy and not Belgium, and not that Belgium caused the War. But why suppress a pamphlet like that because it holds that view? Why not prosecute people who are much more likely to influence opinion than the Independent Labour party with their pamphlets? Why not prosecute the "Times" newspaper? The "Times," in March, 1915, had a series of leading articles the object of which was to point out that it was not Belgium that was the cause of the War, but the cause of the War was because we were following our national policy. The "Times" said:
I now want to go on for a moment to another secret and more insidious matter, the censorship of the Press. Everybody agreed to welcome a limited censorship of facts, and everybody agreed that it was eminently desirable that military events which might in any way assist the enemy which had occurred, or projects which were maturing, ought to be kept secret. I very much doubt if, in the first place, at any rate the House of Commons had any idea that there would be any justification for any further restriction. We shall not know until after the War the full extent of the Press censorship. It will not be known how much direct and indirect pressure has been applied to the Press to take the views in articles and other directions which are convenient to the Government. There is one direction in which there is no doubt whatever that considerable pressure has been exercised upon the Press, and that is in regard to the discussion of possible terms of settlement at the end of the War. In Germany they are perfectly frank about this matter. There discussion in newspapers with regard to possible terms of settlement is absolutely forbidden, but what happens is this: As appears from a discussion in the Reichstag recently, those who want a military and jingo policy, and who would like if they could to keep the territories which the Germans at present occupy—that is the annexationists—are allowed to express their views, but moderate opinion is not allowed to express itself, and recently in the debate in the Reichstag it became clear that the view of large masses of the people was that the Government were repressing the more moderate element in Germany and were using the censorship for that pur- pose. Here it is suggested to editors that it would be unpleasant to the Prime Minister and to the Government to have the possible terms of settlement discussed. They are not told that they are not to write about it, but they have very definite hints given to them, and to all intents and purposes exactly what is happening in Germany happens here. What the Allies want in regard to conquest and annexation is allowed to be expressed in the newspapers. There is the notorious case of Mr. Masterman, whose letter was published in the "Daily Chronicle" advocating the dismemberment of Germany, but no discussion of it was allowed, and no moderate views were allowed to be published in answer to that letter. Considering the influence which the Government exercised through their hints to the newspapers it is not surprising that there is no discussion going on.
There are other ways in which this method of repression is exercised. Another curious case occurred the other day. There is a paper called the "Bystander," and it is very popular in the trenches. I have met many men who have spoken to me about it, and the views of this paper do not offend there. It is a light enough paper, and it is occasionally vulgar. A short time ago there was a cartoon in it representing a British soldier as drunk. It was pretty obvious that it was a joke, although it may have been a very bad joke and a very vulgar one. For this the editor was brought up and a large fine was imposed. Now, there must be a great many vulgar pictures in various newspapers which come out, and I wonder why such care was taken in this respect to select the "Bystander." I think there was something else behind it. Shortly before this there was an article in the "Bystander" which suggested that the military situation might possibly and conceivably end in a deadlock. That was the reverse of a sensational article. This article suggested that that was happening, and that the people must be ready to face it, think the position out, and keep their heads. It was a perfectly legitimate discussion, but it did not please Lord Northeliffe, and in the "Times" there was a tremendous attack made upon it in a letter, and then followed this ridiculous prosecution for a picture in the "Bystander." I suggest that there is some connection between those two facts. The "Bystander" would not take the line which Lord Northeliffe thought proper. Personally, I think the Prussian plan is more straightforward to say to the newspapers that they are not to discuss anything that the Government do not like, or important people do not like, than adopting indirect means like those which we have adopted. The first essential right of our people at the present time is, if they want to discuss why this War is being waged, or what sort of a settlement they would like, they ought to be encouraged and not discouraged. Repression in this matter leads to evil results. In the first place, it is apt to give an entirely wrong impression of what public opinion really is in this country, or how anxious a large number of people are that there should be a reasonable settlement of this War. The second reason is that when peace comes it should not find this country unprepared in its opinion as to what it really does want. It is absurd to say that we are not to have a fully thought-out opinion as to what we want our representatives to do when the chance comes for making peace. I therefore say that the words used in the Reichstag in complaining against the suppression of news there is almost as applicable to this country, although the suppression is not as bad here. One of the speakers in the Reichstag said: which he explained that the suppression of the "Forward" had absolutely nothing to do with the correct report of a very unfavourable meeting which he attended in Glasgow. Although nothing had been done against the "Forward" until this report appeared, and although the only edition of the paper which was confiscated was the one in which that report appeared, yet the real reason for its suppression, he said, was a series of cumulative offences, and he read out a large number of extracts which at most amounted to rather thin indiscretions on the part of the newspaper. I very much doubt if the Minister of Munitions persuaded many Members in the House that the real object of the suppression of the paper was anything except the suppression of the report of this speech, and I am quite sure that he persuaded nobody on the Clyde. If anything were wanted to enforce that view, there is the fact that since that date there has been no prosecution of the newspaper. All these things which were read as cases of lèse-majesté from that box were never brought into Court for the very simple reason that they would not have stood the test of the Law Courts for a moment. The House of Commons ought to be very jealous that this power of suppressing newspapers is not exercised any more, or that it shall only be continued on the definite understanding that if newspapers are suppressed, charges shall be brought against them in Courts, and that there shall be a public trial in order that their offences may be shown up.
I want to say one or two words about prosecutions of individuals under the Defence of the Realm Act for expressions of opinions. A large number of individuals have been charged with saying things calculated to cause disaffection or to prejudice recruiting. We do not know how many cases there have been—I do not know whether they are all reported in the newspapers, probably not—but they are certainly fairly numerous. In the first instance, for some months during the earlier part of the War a good many of these cases were tried in camera. Men were brought up for conversations in railway carriages or speeches. Nobody knew what they had said. They were convicted in secret. I am glad to say that practice seems to have been largely discontinued, I think on the recommendation of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon), who issued a circular to magistrates expressing his disapprobation of the use of secret trial in most cases. The House of the Commons, if the War is to continue long, will have to watch jealously against any recurrence of this practice of secret trial. After all, if you are to have real confidence in the administration of justice, it must be public justice. There is nothing which undermines confidence in the administration of justice so much as secrecy. With regard to these cases in general I want to observe one or two things. In the first place, practically all the men who have been charged with these offences are very humble people. The sayings, owing to which they are accused, are rather in the nature of indiscretions that might easily be uttered without any malicious intention. Obviously in a large number of cases they are merely the expressions of views which are part and parcel of the man's political or religious ideas, which certainly were not, when they were uttered, intentionally directed towards stopping recruiting or of causing disaffection.
I will just cite one or two which really are typical of the lot. Here is a case from Scotland where two men, Finlay Chisholm, a ploughman, and Alexander Kelman, a cattleman, were accused of using language prejudicial to recruiting. There seems to have been no dispute about the case. The men were talking to a recruiting sergeant who was trying to recruit them and they got into a discussion. The recruiting sergeant called them cowards for not enlisting. They admitted themselves that they lost their tempers, and the consequence was that they probably did say things which were indiscreet. They did not admit all that was brought against them, but it may or may not have been that they said improper things such as were recorded against them: is the case of James Houston, who made a speech in which he was alleged to have said various things. These are things in the counts on which he was convicted:
Would my hon. Friend mind completing the counts?
Here are the rest of the charges:
"That no woman wanted her sons to enlist in His Majesty's Forces."
Go on!
I will go on, but those are the only three counts which were found to be good. I will go on and read the counts which were not found to be good: was writing. The article was against militarism, and it might conceivably, therefore, be said to be prejudicial to recruiting, but he does not appear to have intended to publish it. The judge, however, took a very serious view of the case, and said that if they had gone into the graver offence of showing that he had written with intention of doing harm, the matter would have been very serious, for the maximum penalty would have been the death sentence. He gave him three months' imprisonment. On the face of it, it seems a very foolish thing to prosecute men for having Tolstoian views which they do not publish. Then there is the case of Ferriss and Over-bury in Leeds. These men were two respected members of a religious brotherhood, and they appear to have been principally engaged in expressing their view in pamphlets that war is contrary to Christianity. That is a moot question. Most of our spiritual advisers take the other view at the present time. This case of Ferriss seems to have been brought up because of the indignation of a Church of England clergyman on account of what he thought was a perversion of his creed. After all, the view that Christianity means that you ought to oppose war of all sorts has been held before, and may be held by people hereafter. I have read some of the things that these men have written, and they appear to me to be very stupidly worded, but they certainly are not pro-German. They abuse the Germans for their crimes. They say that all war is wrong. I suppose if these writings fell into the hands of some young men they might possibly prevent them enlisting. But it does not seem to me worth while having prosecutions of this kind. However, the accused got six months, which seems to me to be an excessive punishment for a humble enthusiast of that kind.
I cannot help thinking it would be wise of the Government to discourage prosecutions of this nature. They are really not much better than persecutions. If the Government want to stop dissatisfaction they should treat all alike. What did they do when attacks were made in the "Daily Mail" on Lord Kitchener? The whole campaign in that case was calculated to prejudice recruiting. [An HON. MEMBER: "And it did so!"] If you are going to prosecute these unfortunate, stupid people, you ought to treat all people alike. The better plan would be to have done with all this suppression. It is of no good whatever, and really leads to nothing. But it does create a sense of uneasiness in the minds of people, and I am constantly coming up against persons who ask "What may we say, and what may we not say?" There is a sense of irritation also at the general suppression of opinion which is supposed to be the right thing largely owing to the action of the Government. In my opinion, it only helps to create a surly feeling, which we do not want and which explodes in results like that in East Herts election.
I want to say a word or two on the question raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool (Mr. Ashley) the other day when there was a Debate on the question of the results of a particular Regulation. I do not think that the uneasiness with regard to this matter has been altogether allayed by that Debate. I noticed a rather curious coincidence, or contrast, the other day. On 15th June, 1915, there was, in the city of New York, a celebration of the 700th anniversary of Magna Charta, and a large assemblage of people rejoiced in celebrating this great landmark of liberty of the Anglo-Saxon people. In England, on 10th June, 1915, five days earlier, we celebrated that 700th anniversary by publishing in the "Gazette" Regulation 14 B, which enables the Home Secretary arbitrarily to imprison, without legal proceedings, suspects of hostile origin or association. It is quite true that the Home Secretary, in the skilful defence which he made, declared that it was not arbitrary imprisonment, because the naval and military authorities had to initiate action against the suspected person, and because a committee of well-known judges and respected Members of Parliament go into the cases in order to prevent injustice being done. But that did not meet the case brought forward by my hon. Friend and the other critics. What we say is that that committee is not a legal tribunal, and does not give legal decisions; it is a committee appointed by the Executive and removable by the Executive, and as a fact, from certain classes of British subjects the ordinary legal securities against imprisonment have been removed for the time being. We do not say that, necessarily, any injustice has been done to anyone, but we do say it might have been done, and, after all, British subjects ought to have recourse to forms of law.
Here is a story which, I believe, is substantially accurate, as far as is known. There was a certain lady, the daughter of a squire somewhere in England—a lady of pure English blood. For some months she had been doing voluntary work in nursing the wounded back from the front. On 1st September she was at home resting for a day or two, and on that day' her father, as became an English gentleman, was out partridge shooting. When he came back he found a number of motor cars full of police had been to his house, had ransacked his daughter's room, and had carried off his daughter. Seventeen days elapsed before this lady's father or family could discover where she was. For about a week of that time, it afterwards turned out, she was at Scotland Yard, and after that she was sent to an internment prison, where she has been ever since. Five weeks after her arrest she appears to have been brought before the Advisory Committee; she was hot supplied with any charge, or allowed to have legal advice, she was permitted to call no witnesses, and it is understood she was subjected to two days' examination, and she fainted at the end of it. That may or may not be true. If it is I am surprised. Bearing in mind the kindly nature of the inquisitors—men like my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom (Sir G. Cave) and the hon. and learned Member for Worcestershire (Mr. Stanley Baldwin). I think it is very unlikely she was in any sense maltreated. But obviously it was not an ordeal to which any lady should be put unaided. She still remains in prison. It has been intimated that there is no charge made against her, and that none will be made. The Home Office have, indeed, expressly declared that there is no charge, but she is detained as a precautionary measure. She is suspected, I suppose, of "hostile association." She was alleged to have conversed in a neutral land with a person who is a suspect, and she is, apparently, to remain in prison until the end of the War.
Is this a Russian case?
No, this is a purely English case. It is unquestionably so, and it has nothing to do with Russia. The Government, I think, to some extent have realised that in this matter they have gone rather too far. The Home Secretary, the other day, was good enough to say that in future anyone who was brought before the Advisory Committee should be told in general terms the charge made against him, and that a statement should also be furnished to the prisoner, showing on what ground the internment order had been made. I would point out, however, that still this is only an investigation by an Executive committee which is an adjunct of the Home Office. I would like to ask the Government if they cannot go a step further, and if they think it necessary to have the power of interning subjects,' cannot they convert this committee into a legal tribunal of two judges independent of the Executive, before whom a charge can be formulated, legal procedure can be complied with, legal assistance given to the prisoner, and the evidence subjected to cross-examination. I do not see how it can be worth the while of the Government to hold out against observing legal forms in this matter. It may perfectly well be that this lady, and the twenty others who also are in prison under lettres de cachet of the Home Secretary, might be reasonably detained there. But why cannot they be duly tried, without lessening the right of personal freedom? This matter is all the more serious for this reason, that the net in future may be thrown very wide by this Government, or its successor; "hostile association" covers a good deal, and if it covers the case of a woman of purely British extraction who happens to meet some one who is a suspect in Switzerland, it would also cover the cases of other people who may be seen talking to suspects, and the police or other people might bring charges against individuals which might result in a very serious miscarriage of justice.
There is yet another aspect of this Regulation to be borne in mind. It is that unless the House of Lords gives a different decision the Regulation under which British subjects of this particular class can be imprisoned at the will of the Home Secretary is legal under the Act. I do not think there is anything in the Act which would prevent a future Government, if it chose, making another administrative Regulation, leaving out the words "hostile association," and saying that British subjects of any kind may be interned on suspicion. That is why I want to raise this question generally. I do not accuse the Government of the general suppression of opinion, except, indeed, in the matter of the exercise of the censorship over the Press. I do not want to suggest that on the part of the Government there has been a general disregard of personal opinion. But I do want the House to bear in mind that if this is possible in the administration of this Act under present circumstances, a tyrannical Government might use the Act as an instrument by means of which it might suppress all discussion and imprison free citizens in large numbers. This Government has utilised it enough to give an example to worse men should they follow them in office. I have, as a matter of fact, personal reasons for believing in and trusting the present Home Secretary. He is a man who I do not think is likely to go far on the dangerous path of suppression, as it would offend his impulses and the principles which he holds so tenaciously. But no Government can in these days be regarded as firmly settled in office. There is a great deal too much discontent, intrigue and uncertainty, which may burst out three or six months hence, and then the Government may be in the hands of men who love a rigorous policy and not a liberal policy. There are two quite opposite views entertained in this House and in the country. The first, the old view, is the one with regard to liberty in time of war. It is that in time of war anything can be done by the Executive in view of the exceptional circumstances. I hear men say that while liberty is a good thing, while it is invaluable in time of peace, in war time it is subordinate and irrelevant. Personal freedom, it is suggested, is an abstract right, but in concrete politics it becomes absolutely secondary in a state of war. On the strength of this War I find many of my friends who are lovers of liberty in peace time favour these restrictions in war time, and that is a point of view which may at any time become predominant should we have a change of Government. That is why I want to call attention to the possibilities of this Act to-day.
The proper point of view for this House to adopt with regard to the matter is that you ought in war time not to have less liberty, but rather more. Discussion is more essential in war time than it is even in peace time. I agree that is a new view—a view which would have been scouted by everybody a hundred years ago, in the last great war. But, then, what is the difference? The difference is this: In the last great war we were not a democracy. The great mass of the people had not to make up their minds about great questions. What did it matter what the people thought at the end of the War as to what the peace should be in the Napoleonic Wars? Nobody would have thought of consulting them. A great many people do not think of consulting them to-day; a great many people would not have them make up their minds to-day. But we are now a democracy, and if self-government means anything, it ought to mean perfectly free discussion in this country of all the problems that face us in this very momentous and portentous time. Further, we in this House ought to be very strict, in these heated times, when fear inflames anger in the great part of the population, to watch very closely all infringements of liberty of any kind. The truth is that liberty is most precious when it is in danger. It does not very much matter in peace time, because then no one wants to curb or restrict it. The essence of British liberty is that it exists and ought to exist in inconvenient times for those in authority, and the greatest traditions of this House are connected with guarding British liberty against plausible and insidious infringements of it.
I beg to second the Amendment. My object in doing so is particularly to bring before the notice of the Attorney-General and the Government a recent case under the Defence of the Realm Act which occurred in the immediate neighbourhood of my own home. The case I am going to cite is one that illustrates the effect of the Defence of the Realm Act and sets forth some of the defects of that Statute. The case is that of a foreman warehouseman of the name of William Noble Iredale. He was sentenced by the Bradford City Court on the 16th instant to two months' hard labour under the circumstances I will describe. Speaking in conversations at various times during the period of three months, he is alleged to have referred in disrespectful terms to the British Army and to have discouraged recruiting. Anybody familiar with workshop life would be perfectly well aware of the kind of circumstances under which these conversations took place. Men working in the same room talk freely, as if they were speaking with each other on their own hearths. It is only natural to expect that men in these circumstances will in their conversation be more or less lax. It is not to be thought of for a moment that the language used would convey the shades of meaning, such as for instance, the Attorney-General himself would be successful in conveying in any statement he wished to make. Hence it follows that from time to time it is easy to misrepresent such statements as this man made. In addition to that, we know that when mere hearsay is the foundation, a statement is liable to grow with telling and consequently to become very different in the end from the particular statement which the man himself wished to make. What is he alleged to have said, and in whose presence was he alleged to have said it? He was speaking in the presence of five young girls from time to time. They may not all have been present at one time. There were five young girls employed in the same room, and two men. Some of these girls have stated that he referred disrespectfully to the British Army by saying:
"These young men who are enlisting are not in their right minds. They are doing it more for adventure, and when they get out to the front a lot of them will wish they were back."
He is also alleged to have stated that:
"He would rather be ruled by a dog than by the King."
The latter statement is emphatically denied. It is not supported by the evidence of the two men, who would be most likely to be reliable witnesses; certainly they are more likely to be reliable than young girls from fifteen to seventeen without much experience. He is also alleged to have said:
"The Army before the War broke out was made up of the scum of the country."
This again he denies. His own explanation of what he said is this: He states that what he referred to in the conversation was the Army before the War, and that he distinctly limited his statement to that. He said:
"The very people who wanted us to go to fight in their interests are the people that looked upon the Army as scum in times of peace."
Disgraceful!
I am only reading his statement.
:" It is rather worse than what he is supposed to have said.
Let it stand as it is. I am only reading it. His statement was against these people, and not against the Army; so I submit, in reply to the right hon. Baronet, that it is not worse, because he was only complaining of the attitude of the people He said that the people who now wanted men to enlist were people who in normal times looked upon the Army as scum. That is his own statement. Added to that is the statement he is alleged to have made that:
5.0 P.M.
There is another aspect of the matter to which I wish to invite attention. These prosecutions are affecting members of a class in the most law-abiding section of the community. No section of the community has given less trouble to the authorities and has had less sympathy with any form of crime than that section of the artisan population to which this man belongs and which is now being brought into contact with prison life, and on that account I appeal to the Attorney-General to remit this sentence. The man was not allowed bail. He was imprisoned for eight days awaiting trial, and he is now given an additional seven days. He has the good opinion of everyone with whom he has come into contact. I have here a testimonial from his employer covering twelve years of service. The employer concludes by saying: brought into actual contact with prison life will come to hate the law, and the inevitable result will be, when the War is over, that the respect for law and order which has been engrained into the consciences of these men will be sapped and injured, and the country will be the worse for it and not the better.
As was to be expected in a Debate like this, the two hon. Members who have spoken have confined themselves to occurrences under the Act and its regulations in this country. It becomes my duty to direct the attention of the House to the manner in which the Act is being administered in another country, that is, my own. The case made out by the two hon. Members who have spoken may be reduced to this. Their charge against the Government is unfairness in the administration of the Act by imprisoning humble people for slight offences, or none, while leaving wealthy men wholly untouched. That is the case, and it is very naturally the case in a war which has been originated—as indeed most wars have, but this one emphatically—in the interests of the high and mighty, the wealthy and the ambitious. It is in their interest that the lives of humbler people are being sacrificed during the last nineteen months, and it is in their interests that the young men of the country have been urged to expose themselves to that sacrifice. The right hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Simon) stated that freedom of opinion is the privilege and right of every British subject, but he himself, before he left Office, negatived and abrogated his own statement. He himself raised a Debate in this House against a certain number or group of newspapers instead of applying the Act to them as he was bound by his Office to do. That was his idea of impartiality. While afraid to deal in accordance with the Act with certain papers published in this city of London, this thing calling itself a Government sent its military and police into Irish newspaper offices, without trial or accusation, to smash up the type and to carry portions of it away for copying and republishing in Ireland matter which had appeared without objection in London. Can anyone call that impartial administration of the Act? No. What it proves is that, while all tyrants are bad, cowardly tyrants are the worst. Men have been imprisoned in Ireland on the evidence of policemen who listened outside the doors and windows where a group of men were gathered together, while the words they used were but a faint echo of matter published in some of the most important papers here in London.
The hon. Member (Mr. Trevelyan) suggested a change of Government. Perhaps if the Government is not amenable to any sense of impartiality and fairplay it would be amenable to the possibility of itself being deprived of office, and succeeded by other men who, applying to them this same Act and its regulations in their own spirit, imprisoned His Majesty's present Ministers and kept them in prison without accusation or trial. We are passing through a time pregnant with changes, and greater changes than that which I have indicated have occurred in the country of one of our Allies during the French Revolution. I will say to present Ministers, let them take care of the possible application of this Act and the rules under it to themselves. It seems to me to be entirely too late to raise the question of personal liberty in this House. It is a case of locking the stable door after the steed has been stolen. Not alone has this House parted with its control over the liberties of the people of this country, but it has parted with its own liberties. It is being at the present time mocked and ridiculed by the very men into whose hands it has transferred the power which it ought to have kept in its own hands. Elected as it was to maintain and to enlarge the liberties of the people, it has abdicated that high duty, and, without even the formality of Debates, surrendered its rights and liberties and placed them unreservedly in the hands of a parcel of men completely subject to the military authorities. The House has allowed itself to be gripped in the savage fever of war. From having wantonly engaged in a war upon aliens, it is turning to rend its own people. It is afraid to deal with the most powerful newspapers here in the capital of the Empire, but it sends its military and police to break up the type of newspapers in Ireland and to suppress them without trial or accusation. It is impossible for me to inform the House what charge was made against the paper called "Irish Freedom," the paper called "Shin Fein," the paper called the "Irish Volunteer," the paper called "Erin," or any other of the papers that have been suppressed in Ireland, be- cause no charge was ever formulated, no trial was ever held, no part of their contents was ever pointed to as contrary to law.
Were the Government afraid of these little papers, or was it, as I have said, the vile tyranny of weak cowards that induced them to take such action? Under their advice this House has itself swept away the Constitutional Government and personal liberty which took this country several tedious centuries to build up, and it has established in their stead that very militarism from which we were promised it was to save Europe. It has crowned all this folly by re-electing itself to continue the same unconstitutional policy, a thing which the electorate never empowered it to do. It has avoided facing the electorate when the terms for which it had been elected had expired. Why? Because it had abused its power and disgraced itself, and is to-day engaged in the task of disgracing itself before the world and before even the people of its own country. Hon. Members on all sides seem to forget very easily that they have never been elected at all, that no constituents have sent them here, and that they have no right to speak for any constituency.
What about you?
It is because a good many of them know that they cannot get elected that they have stayed here to continue this vile policy of persecution. The Mover of this Resolution was simple enough to say in one part of his speech that he did not allege that any injustice had been done. Immediately afterwards he told us of a case in which an English lady, against whom no charge whatsoever had been formulated, was run off, imprisoned, and kept in prison, her friends knew not where, for a considerable time, and is still in prison without any charge or accusation having been brought against her. How, in face of that, and in face of the later case that has been submitted to the House, can anyone say that the Government have not abused their powers? The view of the Government appears to be that we automatants—the filling-stuff for this House—ought to be pleased because we are in the full enjoyment of the supreme blessing of Coalition rule. We are permitted to admire the harmony and mutual praise of right hon. Gentlemen, whose mutual abuse of each other for these last two years was so exhilarating. We know there is such a thing as poisons when blended making a wholesome drink. We also know pretty well what happens when rogues fall out. What we are now enjoying is an illustration of what happens when rogues fall in and conspire against the liberty of peaceful citizens. They deserve credit for taking care that none but rogues shall be admitted to the Cabinet, They deserve credit for their eloquence about the rights of foreign small nations, while crushing small nations that are in their own grip. They deserve credit as financial purists whilst squandering the public money of this country in conjunction with Mrs. Pankhurst. They deserve credit for their audacity in saying that public opinion is free in this country while they stamp it out under the iron heel which they dare not apply to Lord Northcliffe.
I desire to call attention to a matter concerning the Home Office under the Defence of the Realm Act, and in particular with regard to the making of Regulations thereunder. A case has already been before the Courts, and it has been held that it was not within their power to decide whether the Regulations were good or bad. The Court decided that under the Act the power of making Regulations was vested in the Executive, and that in the exercise of that power it was open to the Executive to provide by such Regulations whether or not the person charged or interned could appeal to the Civil Court. It seems to me that that is an enormous power to place in the hands of the Executive. It is a power which, so far as I know, has never been vested in any Government in this country at any previous time.
We have not been at war.
The right hon. Gentleman says we have not been at war. I am under the impression, unless my memory fails me, that at one period in our history we were at war twenty years in succession, and if the Habeas Corpus Act was suspended for a time, it was suspended by this House and not by Regulations made by the Home Secretary. It seems to me that the public are under a misapprehension with regard to their position. The first misapprehension is that these Regulations do not apply to natural-born British subjects. We know now that they do. I have no doubt we shall be reminded that a charge can only be made against a natural-born British subject who is supposed to have hostile associations, but it is for the Home Secretary to decide as to what hostile associations are. The question of the nature of the Regulations is a matter which has to be decided, not by the Court of Law, but by the Home Secretary, with possibly the right of appeal to the Advisory Committee, whose decision, however, may be disavowed by the Home Secretary. There is another misapprehension. It has already been pointed out by the hon. Member for Elland (Mr. Trevelyan) that if the decision of the Court stands it will be open for the Home Secretary in the exercise of these powers to make further Regulations of a much more drastic character than those which exist at the present time, and to take away under those Regulations the right of appeal to a Court of Law and the right to a writ of habeas corpus. What we want to know is whether some undertaking cannot be given by the Home Office, not that they will not make any further Regulations—they may be necessary, they may be even essential for the safety of the country—but that whatever further Regulations are made it will be provided by those Regulations that whenever a British subject is interned, or is arrested, he shall not only definitely know the charge upon which he is arrested, but that he shall also have the power, which was supposed to be inherent in British citizenship up till now, of appeal to a Court of Law existing independently of the Executive, and that that Court of Law shall decide whether or not the Executive are justified in interning him or not.
I have risen to draw the attention of the House to a case which I think is one of great hardship. On the 20th June last year a gentleman occupying a fine position in Cardiff was told by the police that he must depart from Cardiff, he and his wife and family, leaving his business for an indefinite time. He had to obey the order. He tried to find out what he was charged with. He was given no reply. I happen to be Recorder of Cardiff. He communicated with me, and I approached the police to find out what he was charged with. I could get no satisfaction of any kind, and neither could this gentleman. From 20th June last year until to-day he has not been allowed to go back to his home or his business, and for all that the authorities know or care his business maybe going to ruin, while he himself has been banished from the amenities of his life. I am very glad that the Attorney-General is good enough to listen, and I would be pleased to give to him privately particulars of this gentleman. This gentleman is a British-born subject. His brother happens to be in my chambers. I have known him for twenty-one or twenty-two years. He belongs to a family very well known in Cardiff. No charge has ever been brought against him. In October last year he offered to submit himself to cross-examination at the hands of any counsel nominated by the authorities and to pay the costs himself. That offer has never been accepted. I have brought the matter before the attention of the Home Office. The Home Office told me that they have nothing to do with it, that it is a question relating to the War Office, and that the military authorities are the people who act in this way. I have brought the matter before the attention of the War Office for weeks past, and I can get no satisfaction of any sort. I submit that it is intolerable that a man of this description, a gentleman of position, who differed from me in politics in the past very often—because I always regarded him as a Jingo of much the same tribe as my right hon. Friend the Attorney-General—should be banished from his home and from his business, with no charge formulated against him.
He has been banished because of Regulation 14 of the Defence of the Realm Act, which says—I am quoting from memory—that any man who is suspected of having done an act, or doing an act, or being about to do an act which is detrimental to the national interest—I think that I have quoted substantially accurately—can by administrative order be ordered from his home, and from his business, under this Regulation. That is what has happened to this gentleman whom I have known for over twenty years as a devoted loyal subject. That is an intolerable state of things for which there seems to be no remedy. I have brought the matter before the Home Office and the War Office, but without result. It is no good bringing it before the attention of the authorities, because they are in paramount power. I do ask my right hon. Friend the Attorney-General to take some action in this case. I know that he has at heart, as all common lawyers have, the care of the liberty of the subjects which has been cherished by all the great predecessors in office of my right hon. Friend. I am glad to think that to-day the people who have spoken most boldly in favour of that liberty are Lord Halsbury, Lord Par-moor, and Sir Edward Fry—three lawyers who differ from me in politics, but who have kept up the tradition which has always been held sacred at common law from the time of Sir Edward Coke down. We thought that, for the last 250 years at all events, English liberty in this matter was sacred. When the Habeas Corpus Act was passed by the subservient Parliament of Charles II., everybody thought that that was an end to the old controversy which had been going on for more than a century under the Tudors and the Stuarts. No one thought that the administrative law, le droit administratif, would take the place of Acts of Parliament. Once the Habeas Corpus Act was passed everybody, until now, thought that there was a close for all time to the old controversy as to whether a national emergency should be quoted as being of greater right than the liberty of the subject. It is a hard thing that in these days, under a Coalition Government, which represents the best brains, talents and traditions of England, the noblest position of English liberty should be assailed in this way, and I hope that the Attorney-General will give me some assurance on this point.
( indistinctly heard ): I must express to the House my regret that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, who would naturally have replied in this Debate, is prevented from indisposition from being present. His absence, regrettable on every ground, is no less regrettable because it involves me in this Debate on very short notice—mid-day to-day—and therefore it may be that there are one or two cases—there are not, I think, many—on which I am not so fully equipped with exact knowledge as might be expected, having regard to the criticisms which have been made. I must appeal to hon. Gentlemen on that account. In the first place I will deal with two specific cases made in the course of the Debate before I approach the situation involved in the speech of the hon. Gentleman who introduced the Motion to the House. I will first refer to the case brought before the House by the hon. Member for Bradford. He told us of the case of William Ardale, who, as I understand it, was convicted on the 16th of this month. It is quite plain that the hon. Gentleman has raised the matter very close to the time of the occurrence of which he complains, and I was told before the Debate began that this was a case that was under inquiry. Certainly the time that has passed has not been unreasonably long for the purpose of the inquiry. I must be taken as expressing no opinion about the case until I have heard the result of the inquiry. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will not think that I am doing any injustice to the case before the House if I point out that the case after all was decided by a judge who must be presumed to have been impartial. The charge was made that he had described the old Army as scum. The story he told was that he had in fact only said that most of the people to-day who demanded a large Army were the very people who had formerly said that the old Army was scum. The two stories were before the magistrate. Like all magistrates, he had the right of forming his own opinion as to which of those stories was well founded, and he believed the story put forward by the prosecutioner. More than that I cannot say. The case is being inquired into. I come now to the case referred to by my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. L. Williams). There again I have never heard of the case until this moment. It is possible—I do not know—that the present Home Secretary has heard of it, or perhaps the representations which my hon. and learned Friend has made were made in the days when the right hon. and learned Gentleman who went out of office (Sir J Simon) occupied that position.
Both.
I am sorry that I am unable to give my hon. and learned Friend the information which he has asked for, but I will give him the assurance that I will send round to the War Office tomorrow, and will obtain an explanation of the grounds on which they acted. That they acted without grounds which appeared to them substantial and real is, to my mind, frankly incredible. I will apply my own mind to the matter of which my hon. and learned Friend complains. I now approach the main indictment which has been made by the hon. Member for Elland Valley (Mr. Trevelyan). Having regard to the admittedly drastic powers with which the Executive has been armed since this War began, and to the fact that this War has now been in progress for more than eighteen months, and to the further fact that notice of this Resolution has been tabled now for many days, and that everybody who had specific cases of hardship and abuse of the great powers with which the Executive has been armed had full opportunity to come forward and make them known to the House, it is amazing not that so many cases have been introduced in which error or excessive authority is alleged, but that so few cases have been cited in the course of this Debate. The cases, it is stated by the hon. Gentleman, are extreme, excessive, unreasonable, and a public danger. To all the cases which have been cited in the House, with the exception of the two with which I have dealt, there is, I believe, a complete and conclusive answer, and I shall ask of the House the liberty very shortly to attempt to make that answer.
In the first place, my hon. Friend (Mr. Trevelyan) made reference to the Independent Labour Party, but I am left in a little doubt as to what my hon. Friend's real view is, because he plaintively complained of injustice done in cases under local trial. Where there have been local trials in these cases all the facts were carefully investigated, and as between the view of the Independent Labour party and that of the authorities who examined the cases, I prefer very greatly to rely on that of the judges. My hon. Friend holds his views in regard to these matters perfectly conscientiously, and I understand that he thinks this country ought never to have gone to war at all. But, without any offence, I submit that the hon. Gentleman cannot be regarded as the best judge of this, or of how this War is to be carried on now we are involved in it. Apparently the hon. Member approves of methods-which, in an insidious way, give the impression that the position of England is. wrong, and that the other side are right, and that this country is solely responsible for the War, and attempted to bring it about. Magistrates tried these cases, and sometimes the hon. Gentleman attaches great importance to a trial by a magistrate, and sometimes he does not. Where it happens that the case has been investigated by a committee, presided over by a judge, he is discontented with the result unless it is in his favour. The hon. Gentleman referred to the case of a gentleman who complained that he had been injured and had sustained a legal wrong by reason of the decision of the authorities. He took legal proceedings in order to obtain an order for the restoration of certain pamphlets to him. The case in the first place went before the Divisional Court, which consisted of two or three judges—I am not sure which number—and the application was dismissed; and it then went before the Court of Appeal, where it was further considered, I think probably by two judges. I was not there, but I was told that in this court, as in the other court, the pamphlets were examined. I was informed at the Home Office that the pamphlets were of a most mischievous character.
My hon. Friend then attempted to establish an analogy between the criticisms in the "Candid Review" and the contents of these pamphlets. I do not pretend to be familiar with the extracts from the pamphlets, but I would submit that there is no analogy between the criticisms contained in "The Candid Review" and the kind of language which is contained in these pamphlets. I have never seen anything in the quotations from "The Candid Review" on which the construction could be placed that we went into this war clearly from wrongful motives, and that we were wrong and that the enemy were right.
No; there is absolutely nothing of that in what I said.
At any rate, there is a consistent effort throughout these pamphlets to prove that we were in the wrong.
Both parties were wrong.
If the hon. Member's object is to prove that both parties were wrong, then both parties went into this war deliberately and intentionally.
No.
All I can say is that is the construction that can be put upon these pamphlets, and the only construction, so far as I am aware. If the object was to show that both parties were wrong, those who issued these pamphlets spent a great deal more time on that part of their exertions which aimed at showing that this country was wrong than they thought proper to employ to show that our enemies were wrong. The proportion of time given to the one as compared with the other was ridiculous. All I have to say is that the proceedings which were taken have been carefully conducted. In regard to the case of "The Bystander," there was an illustration in that journal which represented a British soldier drunk. My hon. Friend will forgive me if I point out that he did not include reference to that illustration in his observations. It repre- sented a soldier lying on his back, drinking—an extremely obscene and revolting figure, a bottle of rum by his side, and underneath were the words, "Wounded and missing." I call that a vile picture. It was asked where the responsibility lies for the proceedings against this journal. I myself am responsible; I alone am responsible, and not the police or the War Office, and, if a similar publication were brought to me I would again order a prosecution. After hearing all that was to be said by competent counsel, the magistrate took exactly the same view as I have taken myself.
6.0 P.M.
As to the suggestion made by my hon. Friend, that this prosecution of the "Bystander" was really to be explained by some other matter in the "Bystander" dealing with the policy of the country, I can only reply that I did not read the "Bystander," nor had I ever seen or heard of the earlier numbers of that periodical. I justify the directions which I gave on this single issue of the "Bystander," which contained that objectionable figure; it was on that alone I acted. As to the prosecutions which have taken place, there, again, my hon. Friend took the stronger cases, to which he called the attention of the House. I have examined those cases. First of all, there is the case of the cowman. I understand that the statement which was made by the man was to the effect that our soldiers were being starved and were being fed at the front on rotten meat. All these statements were entirely untrue and were most mischievous, being without any foundation at all. My hon. Friend referred to the case of a man called Bailey who made these statements—Soldiers you have the power; if you refuse, you shall have anything you want. Refuse to go to the War; soldiers, refuse to obey; there is no power that can or will oppose you; soldiers, revolt; workmen, do not try, for war purposes, to engage in the manufacture of munitions of war: do not carry soldiers to the War, down tools. The hon. Gentleman may say that those observations were not seriously meant. That is for the magistrate to decide. I venture to ask, sup posing that the hon. Gentleman, instead of being opposed to the War, was in favour of it and had the responsibility of carrying on the War—
I am not in favour of stopping the War at this point. I am in the same position with regard to the continuance of the War as my right hon. and learned Friend; I do not want to stop it at present at any price.
The hon. Gentleman says he wants to carry on the War, but he will forgive me for reminding him that he took a curious way of proceeding with it in the Debate on the Compulsory Service Bill. He is reported in the "Manchester Guardian" as having said that it was cant, hypocrisy, and sham to say that the Bill was introduced merely for the purpose of winning the War, and he added: "It is being introduced for the period after the War for fastening the chains down." If the hon. Gentleman is in favour of continuing the War, he took means which are singularly ill-adapted to bring the War to a successful conclusion.
It is in your view necessary to end the War, not in mine.
My view is that more men are needed to end the War, and my hon. Friend is doing his best to prevent us getting the men.
There are lots of people who are as keen about continuing the War—
The hon. Member was listened to in silence. He might listen to the answer.
The next case referred to by the hon. Gentleman was that of ( names inaudible ). That was the case in which the men said that they believed in Christ and would resist belligerent taxation and refuse service, etc.; and that is one of the strongest cases the hon. Gentleman could find.
How much did they get?
Six months. I understand my hon. Friend to share in the admiration which all of us have for the judgment of the late Home Secretary. The late Home Secretary was responsible for the Home Office at the time that sentence was passed, and after giving most careful consideration to it he refused to alter in any way the decision of the magistrate. The next case reached I think, perhaps, the high-water mark of pathos, as presented by the hon. Gentleman. That was the case of the young English lady who was, we were told, at home quietly in her English home, while her father, an Englishman, was shooting partridges on the 1st of September. The House will see at once what a delightful illustration that was. Then we are told how this innocent lady is taken away to a shameful gaol and gets no trial, and that her father did not know where she was. When my hon. Friend says things like that in this House, where there are authorities who can deal with these statements and present the real facts, we may form an opinion of the kind of colouring he puts on those stories when he addresses audiences of working men. Let me just inform the House of the true facts about this English lady, the daughter of the partridge shooter. She returned in September of last year. It is perfectly true that she is a British subject, and not of enemy origin. I cannot give the House the fullest details of all the facts, which I may say are relevant facts. They are admissions in the course of statements which she made to the committee which is presided over by a gentleman who is a humane judge and who would allow no unfairness to any person, and still less to any woman. Most of these facts depend on admissions made by this lady herself at that tribunal.
Since 1909 she has been an intimate friend of a person who had to flee from this country because he was associated with sedition in a most aggravated form, and attempts at assasination. He fled from this country and she very constantly saw him since 1909. The person with whom she has been so associated, after he left England, went to Berlin, and since then has been employed as an agent of the enemy in Berlin to the certain knowledge of our authorities, and an agent of a particularly dangerous and vile kind. I will not say more for obvious reasons. He has from time to time left Berlin and visited neutral countries for the purpose of arranging meetings with people in this country with whom he though it convenient or profitable to continue his relations. In May, 1915, this lady left for Switzerland in order to meet that German spy. She stopped in the same hotel with him for several days, and in the statement which she has made she admitted that she was told by this German spy that he was in the employment of the German Government and had an office in Berlin. After her meeting with him she returned to England, carrying a message from him to one of his proved accomplices in this country. When she was arrested and her house was examined there was found literature of an extremely seditious character, advocating in the plainest possible language both revolution and murder. That is the case of this innocent English lady who we are told has been treated in this abominable way.
May I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman to deal with the point I was making? I never asserted this lady was innocent, or anybody else. What I wanted to know was why not give her a trial?
The hon. Gentleman is going back to the discussion which took place the other night in the House when an exhaustive reply was made by the present Home Secretary, and a reply which, in the view of those who heard it, was ample and crushing. The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that if I tried to re-argue the effect of the particular Regulation then dealt with I should not be allowed to do so. When he tells me that was his whole intention in raising the case, then I can only say he was extremely unfortunate in the way in which he brought it before the House and in the impression which was conveyed of the blameless lady who had been treated in a "grossly tyrannical manner." The whole of this matter was also gone into very carefully by my right hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow, and after being fully considered he declined in any way to interfere. It was then considered by the present Home Secretary, who made an independent examination and arrived at the same conclusion. My hon. Friend concluded his speech by an eloquent panegyric on British liberty. After all, that British liberty could only survive in very exiguous quantities if the War was carried on by the methods which the hon. Gentleman seems to think adequate, and I do not know that the writing of pamphlets or the making of speeches which my hon. Friend thinks we ought to enjoy in this country would be a very grtat consolation to us if we were in the hands of those persons in whose hands we should be if the War were not carried to a successful conclusion.
I have dealt with the cases put forward by the hon. Gentleman, and I have made no secret of my opinion that they were without exception baseless and unsubstantial, and that they are not cases deserving of a vestige of sympathy or which require any further consideration. I was much struck by the moderation and force with which another hon. Member put forward his case. I give him the assurance that I will send for the papers and most carefully examine the facts, and, if I find that the sentence is an excessive one, I have no doubt that the Home Office will be impressed by any recommendation I may make to them. It is true that great powers have been granted to and are being exercised by the Executive. It is entirely untrue to say that those powers are uncontrolled. They can be controlled from this House and are constantly controlled in the House, and if there is any real case of abuse of power or wholly unjustifiable action on the part of a Minister, any hon. Gentleman on the Adjournment can appeal to the House of Commons, which has surrendered none of its real powers to the Executive. There is an instant appeal that can be made to the House of Commons by any Member. I most sincerely hope that even in these days Members will not think so badly of those who are responsible, of those who undertake the heavy burden of office, as to suppose that if to any of them a Member of this House brings a case of real hardship or grievance they will not labour with as much care and effort as any private Member to set that grievance right. I can only give the House the assurance that, as far as I am concerned, as long as I discharge the duties that I discharge to-day, I shall be accessible at any moment to any Member of the House and will investigate any case of wrong as far as my powers extend.
We have all listened with interest and with our usual admiration to the speech of the Attorney-General. I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman very much for his statement that he will be willing to give his personal attention to any cases brought before him. I shall bring two cases before him, and I hope that later on he will give them his personal attention. I greatly admire the abilities of the Attorney-General, and I recognise in him a powerful debater, but on this occasion I feel that he has not come up to anything like his usual form. In fact, he has not fairly met the cases which have been put before him. He has sheltered himself behind the usual devise of raising prejudices and dealing with issues quite apart from those which he had to meet. He has raised, for instance, the difference that he has with the hon. Member for Elland as to the origin of the War. Why bring that in except to excite prejudice? He has raised the issue of the Military Service Act, and tried to excite prejudice on that ground. Why did he do it I can only think that he knew that he had a very poor case. He introduced prejudice again by sneering at cases which, to my knowledge, and probably to his own, have caused poignant personal and famliy suffering. The sneers that he cast at the English gentleman who went out partridge shooting on 1st September were quite unworthy of him. Does he deny that this gentleman came back and was for ten days without an idea as to the whereabouts of his daughter, and that for weeks and weeks no charge was brought against her? If this woman was so guilty, why could not the authorities bring her into Court, or at any rate tell her during those weeks what the charge against her was? The fact is, the right hon. Gentleman knew that he had not a case. However guilty this woman was—and I am willing to admit that she ought to have been tried or proceeded against—why put upon her and her family the indignity, the injustice, and the unnecessary pain involved in taking her away when her father was out, in keeping her friends for many days without any information as to her whereabouts, in keeping her in prison for many weeks without any charge being preferred against her, and in then interning her for months without bringing her to a fair trial? That is the case—not whether there was any suspicion against the woman. Really we are not so foolish or so unfair to men whom we respected and still want to respect, whom we have trusted and still want to trust, in this time of national emergency, as to think when a case like that occurs that there is no ground whatever against the person concerned. What we are here to say is that the law has been strained in a cruel and utterly unnecessary and unreasonable manner. That is the case that was very reasonably, very quietly, and, I venture to say, very cogently, put forward by the hon. Member for Elland, and that is the case which the Attorney-General knew he could not meet, which he could not answer, and which he tried to prejudice by raising entirely false and irrelevant issues.
I confess that at the beginning of the War I was in the position of a Member of this House who had had increasing confidence in the Government of the day, and was willing, as I suppose most Members, at any rate on my side of the House, were, to trust the Government to the utmost in the carrying on of the War. But as I look back upon the changes of feeling that came upon me in the early days of the War, I am free to admit that my trust in the Government was continually shaken, and my suspicion aroused that the management and control of affairs was not in the capable hands that I wished them to be, because of the way in which they treated first of all the censorship and then matters arising out of the Defence of the Realm Act. I wish to call attention to one or two' cases of an altogether different character from; those previously raised. They are typical of several cases which have been brought before me. They are cases where persons have been first of all attacked under the law and convictions attempted to be obtained against them, and where, when that attempt has failed, the Government have immediately put the people into prison without preferring any charge against them or giving any explanation. They are cases of men who have been as I believe, absolutely cruelly treated in that they have been first of all proceeded against under the law, and then when the law has failed they have been put into prison without any charge being made against them, and deprived of advantages and even of the usual facilities for seeing their friends and legal advisers.
The first case is one to which I have referred in several questions. It was brought before me first of all by a gentleman who holds a very highly-paid official position at the Law Courts, and who has been called in by a friend of the young man concerned as an impartial person to inquire into the circumstances of the case. The interview that I had with this gentleman convinced me that a great injustice had been done. The case is that of a young man of doubtful nationality. His father was either a Dutchman or a German. His mother was undoubtedly a German woman before her marriage. His father was an undesirable person, and he became absolutely estranged from the family. When this lad was fifteen years of age his mother, who had other children dependent upon her, allowed him to come to this country to be taken charge of by friends here. Since that time he has lived entirely in England. He is now twenty-one years of age. Please note that this lad had lived in Belgium, Paris, and South America, but that he had never lived in Germany. He speaks French and English, he cannot speak German, and he has certainly had no enemy associations. At the beginning of the War he became a student in a technical college in London. He was desirous of becoming a British subject as soon as he could obtain the necessary money. One of the difficulties in his way was that he did not know what his nationality was. When the War broke out he was undergoing a technical training in a workshop at Gloucester, although at the time a student in a technical college near London. He at once registered himself as a friendly alien. When his holiday began he went to Ramsgate, where again he reported himself as a friendly alien, but was rejected by the police because, as they rightly said, they were then only registering enemy aliens. I call attention to this because it shows that from the very start, uncertain of his nationality, whatever it was, he desired that the police should know his whereabouts. Later on he found that his mother had registered herself and her other children as enemy aliens. That is undoubtedly one of the difficulties of the case. I will not follow the story out in detail. I will only say that in February, 1915, when he was living at Brentford—I wish the hon. Member for Brentford (Mr. Joynson-Hicks) were here, because it is a case in which I think he would be interested—he was summoned at the Brentford Police Court by the London police for being an alien enemy who had failed to register. But, though officials came down from the Home Office, and the police tried in every way to prejudice the magistrates against him, and asked for two, if not three, adjournments, the magistrates even in Brentford dismissed the case, and the young man went out believing that he was free. The next day, the police having been found out in this case, and some of the comments made in the police court having shown up the Home Office officials in a very unfavourable light, the young man was arrested and interned. I have personally investigated the case, and I have brought to the attention of the authorities the fact that the young man can show that he is absolutely without enemy associations, that for years he has been saving up money to become a British subject, that he actually offered to enlist in the Army, that he has offered since to work on munitions, and that he is a most capable engineer. In spite of all this he is still kept in an internment camp, and practically no charge made against him. I might say that in the internment camp his case has excited so much sympathy, and he himself has personally excited so much affection, that he has special chambers allotted to him and is in every way treated most exceptionally. This is my point: that it is a case in which the Home Office authorities have attempted to get a conviction, and when they were unable to do so, rather than have a young, man of really patriotic British sentiments going about doing his work, have clapped him into prison and kept him there in spite of the very strong representations, which have been made to them.
As I know nothing of the case, can my hon. Friend tell me why this young man's mother registered herself and her other children as enemy aliens?
Yes, I can. I can inform my right hon. Friend about that and about a great many other facts. I believe the fact is really that the mother was expecting to get for each of her children legacies which had been left by her father, who was a German citizen, as those children came of age. It was just at this time that the young man was coming of age, and in. a position to get his bequest. There was very good ground, therefore, why this, woman should register herself as an enemy alien, because she had an eye on the money which she could only get according to the law. I admit the case is a complicated one, with curious facts connected with it, but I would turn to this point, which is the essential point: that is that the Home Office in this case have tried and failed to get a conviction, and then in their spiteful impotence and cruel—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] Yes, I will say it is impotence for failing to get a conviction under the law, and they are impotent still. In their spiteful impotence in not getting a conviction by law, they clap a real patriotic young fellow into prison, where he is, to the great loss and detriment of the country, and, I think, to the great disgrace of the Home Office.
I will give another case of a similar kind to the House. I am glad to see my hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland on the Front Bench opposite, because the case has reference to his Department. It is the case of a man concerning whom I have put a question or two. He goes by the name of Peter Petroff. He is a Russian subject. The man, like many Russian subjects here in this country at the present time, is a political refugee. I believe he has been tortured in Russian prisons, or he says he has—I do not know whether it is true, for I have never seen him. He escaped, as many of these prisoners have done, without a passport. He has come from Germany, where he stayed a certain time, but for the last eight years he has made his home in England. He is a very violent Socialist, and an extremely able public speaker. During the War he has been advocating extreme Socialist opinions, and I admit that in Glasgow and the neighbourhood he has taken a line with which personally I do not at all hold. The police being on his track found that on one occasion he had gone outside Glasgow to a place where he was to deliver a lecture. I propose to give to the House his story as he has sent it to me in his own words. I think the House will see that it is extremely clear, and that the story is written in extremely good English. He says:
Hear, hear!
Yes, now we have got the real rogue of the piece! See what has happened in the meantime. The man appealed against his sentence, asked to be let out, was first of all refused, and then was suddenly let out. Then when those concerned knew what the result of the appeal was going to be they suddenly put him into prison again. Listen to further portions of the letter:
"The Sheriff in the meantime issued a statement for the High Court of Justiciary. As I stated the case was not a correct record of what had taken place in his court my lawyer and I introduced alterations and emendations in the statement."
As they call it, they "adjusted" it.
"Both the Fiscal and the Sheriff's clerk accepted these alterations. The Sheriff said he would take home the stated case, which he did. During my internment Sheriff Thomson withdrew his previous statement and issued a third edition of the case."
Hon. Members will see that they were getting at the Sheriff all the time to state the case in some way by which, by hook or crook, the poor man might somehow be kept in prison. As the House will see they failed to do it. In spite of all, the conviction was quashed by the High Court of Justiciary and ten guineas costs were awarded to the man.
"The Solicitor-General declared to the High Court that the Government was prepared to withdraw the sentence on condition that the conviction would remain. Apparently it was essential for the Government to secure a conviction against me in order that they might, as I believe, deport me to Russia.… The High Court, however, rejected this compromise proposed by the representative of the Crown. There is, however, one part of the stated case which the High Court accepted, as follows: I found the following facts proved—that the appellant is a Russian subject."
Here is a matter which is quite clear and on all fours with the previous case that I have given. There was the attempt to obtain a legal conviction by hook or by crook, by one Court or another, by changing and altering documents and charges, then, when they failed, apparently out of spite and in their ignorance, the authorities proceeded in the way I have described. The man was put into Edinburgh Gaol after he succeeded in obtaining the quashing of his conviction. In Edinburgh Gaol he asked why he was there, and was told that it was because of enemy associations, and he was pointed to the words of the Regulations dealing with the matter. What the enemy associations were he was not told. As the man has been, both in this country and in other countries and especially in Germany, a most determined and outspoken opponent of militarism and beaucratic methods, he felt that this was a slight upon his integrity. Supposing that in some way he was unjustly charged with being an accomplice of the enemy, he went on hunger strike, but he subsequently gave that up. He was afterwards brought to the Islington Internment Camp under an Home Office Order. His friends are not allowed to send letters to him. He is not allowed to see anybody. He is, I believe, not allowed to have communication with his lawyer. The case belongs to a class of case of which there are a great number—a class which the Attorney-General took no opportunity whatever of facing. It is a class of case of men who have been brought to trial and succeeded in getting off, and then under the Defence of the Realm Act, without any charge being brought against them, they have been put in prison. The Secretary for Scotland has been kind enough to speak to me about this case. I do not want to blame his course in the matter, but I must refer to the fact which I know he will bring up if he thinks the case I have made worthy of reply—I mean the fact that this man Petroff, a man who is a Socialist and a mob orator.
What?
A Socialist and a mob orator of a very effective kind. He is a Russian Socialist, and like many other Russians of his class he has made a marriage without going through any legal ceremony. The woman whom he has taken to be his wife, though not a legally wedded wife, has been with him for something like ten years. Unfortunately she is a German. Regarded from the ordinary point of view she is neither an enemy nor of enemy associations, because she is a whole-hearted companion and sympathiser with her husband; yet, technically, she is an enemy alien. I am told by the Secretary for Scotland that the real reason why the man is au prison now is that he has been going about with one, who, although he regards her as his wife, is an enemy alien, and, technically, therefore, the man is a man with enemy association.
I say that is a mere fraud and a subterfuge for defending himself for his egregious failure when he tried to bring this man within the meshes of the law. If I have stated the matter strongly and with some feeling, I contend I am quite justified. I went into this matter with- out prejudice or desire to find anything wrong against the Government or anything wonderfully virtuous in this man, but I am convinced that the way in which the Defence of the Realm Regulations, and the powers given to the Executive under them have been used, is unworthy, is mean, and, I will go further and say, it is a danger to the liberty of the subject, and to good faith and the sense of justice.
I will just refer to one further fact which follows easily upon the line that I have been taking—I mean the way in which our Government is admittedly now treating subjects of friendly but alien nationality. I asked a question this afternoon as to how many in this country had been compulsorily enlisted since the War began, and the answer I received was that it was not desirable to give the number. I should like to know under what right do we now compulsorily enlist Belgians or any other nationality in their armies. I might refer the Lord Advocate to a case which possibly he may remember, because it is cited in Dicey's "History of the Constitution," a famous case in 1854, when certain sailors of the Russian Navy—this was before the Crimean War—deserted when Russian naval vessels were in our ports. They were apprehended at Guildford, and our authorities, at the request of the Russian authorities, put them in prison. A writ of habeas corpus was issued, and these men were set free, and the law was established that the soldiers of a friendly Power could not be compelled to serve when in our land. I believe myself that the power the Government has taken, and has been taking for months and months, to compel to military service Belgians and Russians, and, I believe, Frenchmen, in our midst is quite irregular. I should like to know the authority that they have, either under existing Statutes or even the Defence of the Realm Regulations, to do such a thing. Questions have been asked in this House, not only by myself but by other Members, on 12th November, and on Tuesday of this week. It is quite obvious that French, Russian, and Belgian subjects have been compelled to go into the Army, or have been handed over, to their respective military authorities, though claiming the right of domicile in this land. That may be, or it may not be, under the Defence of the Realm Regulations, but it is a fact. If such things go on without any attempt to conceal them or justify them, it is a really serious case. I believe it to be entirely illegal, and I believe that if you ask Ministers what their rights are they will say, "Oh, under the Defence of the Realm Act we can do anything, and we shall do anything." That may be all right, but, if so, we may reach, as has been intimated already in this Debate, such a state of things that it may be found to be very convenient to put some of our present rulers under lock and key, through the powers they themselves have invented in the Defence of the Realm Act and the Defence of the Realm Regulations.
In conclusion, I wish to call the attention of the House to the fact that, during the course of this Debate, though it has been listened to by a large number of Members, whom I think I may call ultra-patriotic, ultra-militarists, and with ultra-Government proclivities—Members who are willing to say that everything the Government does is right, every power that it asks for ought to be granted, everything that it does in respect of the liberty of the subject ought to be applauded—though, I say, this Debate has been attended by a number of Members of that class, there is not one who has got up to answer the succession of speeches in criticism of the Defence of the Realm Act administration. Why that is I will not venture to say, but I think it is pretty significant in these days, when our liberties, as Lord Halsbury said, have undergone an amount of abridgement and curtailment which is quite beyond what we have suffered in our constitutional history before, that nobody should have risen to champion and defend the action that has been taken by the Executive except the Attorney-General.
My hon. Friend, who has shown considerable knowledge of these cases, has managed to impart prejudice into his speech merely by confusing things that have no connection with one another at all. I have nothing to do with the prosecution of persons who fail to register themselves. That is purely a matter for the police—the Procurator-Fiscal—of the district, and is not a matter in which I am consulted or with which I have any concern whatever. The whole of my hon. Friend's charge against me was that I had interned this man because the prosecution had failed. He had no other charge to make. I think that charge was very recklessly made, because my hon. Friend, if he had made the least inquiry, would have discovered that I had nothing to do with that prosecution whatever any more than he had. These prosecutions are not carried on by the executive Government, but by the proper legal authorities. My hon. Friend gave an account which, I admit, was not altogether unfair, of this man Petroff. Petroff is a foreigner. I am perfectly prepared to accept the statement that he is a Russian. I do not know that he is not, and I do not know that he is. I understand his real name is not Petroff. Let us assume he is a Russian. He is a political refugee. My hon. Friend said he is a man of the most violent Socialist opinions. He is living with a German woman who did not register herself. He certainly is responsible for the fact that this German woman, who is not his wife, did not register herself, and his alien associations are in themselves somewhat suspicious. Now my hon. Friend says this man has been living with this woman for ten years. My hon. Friend's knowledge of the case is extensive, and he may be right, but my information is that the woman is only twenty-four years of age. She is undoubtedly a woman of very great ability. She writes some excellent letters, but her views are views which are somewhat dangerous. She says, in so many words, that she believes neither in God, nor in Governments, nor in State marriage. I was asked by the military authorities to deal with this man Petroff, as they regarded him as a dangerous person. There is no doubt that he was a dangerous person as a man who was advocating, with much ability, views which were contrary to the interests of the country both as regards recruiting and the manufacture of munitions. I considered the case, and I came to the conclusion, with which I think the House will agree, that if this country gives asylum to an alien who is driven away from his own country the least that alien can do is to observe the laws of this country, and not to work against the interests of this country. I tell my hon. Friend quite plainly that I am perfectly certain that 999 out of 1,000 people in this country—in fact, everybody but cranks—will agree with me that any Government which did not shut up foreigners who tried to work against the interests of this country would be unworthy of its place, and, so far as I am concerned, I certainly shall pursue that policy. If any alien comes here and tries to interfere either with recruiting or with the proper manufacture of munitions, I shall certainly consider it my duty, on proper representations from the military authority, to intern that man and keep him out of mischief. I may tell my hon. Friend I have adopted the same view with regard to the German woman, and she is now interned. My hon. Friend talks about the liberty of the subject, but neither of these persons is a British subject. As for the cases raised by my hon. Friend, they are not cases with which I am concerned; they have been dealt with by the ordinary process of law. This is a matter for which I am responsible, and I am not afraid in any assembly of Englishmen to defend my action.
Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and agreed to.
Main Question put, and agreed to.
Supply
Considered in Committee.
ROYAL PALACES.—Class 1
Motion made and Question proposed,
1. "That a sum, not exceeding £32,700, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1917, for Expenditure in respect of Royal Palaces, including a Grant-in-Aid." [NOTE.—£23,000 has been voted on account.]
Whereupon Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," [ Mr. Rea, ]— put, and agreed to.
Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Tuesday next.
Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Bill
7.0 P.M.
Considered in Committee, and reported without Amendment; to be read the third time upon Tuesday next.
Naval and Military War Pensions, Etc
Expenses—Consolidated Fund
Resolution reported,
"That it is expedient to authorise the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of the sum of one million pounds payable under any Act of the present Session to provide for the payment of a Grant in aid of the funds at the disposal of the Statutory Committee constituted under the Naval and Military War Pensions, etc., Act, 1915."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
Statement by Mr. Hayes Fisher
No suitable opportunity occurred on the Second Reading of the Pensions Bill which gave the House a chance of discussing the details of this proposal. This £1,000,000 is the very natural sequel to the Naval and Military War Pensions Act which was passed by the House at the end of last year, when we set up the Statutory Committee of the Royal Patriotic Fund Corporation for the purpose of making provision as to the pensions, grants, and allowances made in respect of the present War to officers and men in the Naval and Military Services of His Majesty land their dependants, and the care of officers and men disabled in consequence of the present War, and for purposes connected therewith.
The House will recollect that the principal functions assigned to that Committee were, firstly, to frame Regulations for supplementary pensions; secondly, to make grants on scales laid down by the Committee on Supplementary Pensions in cases where the circumstances were acceptable and where State pensions did not appear to be adequate, and in the case of dependants it was to be where the special circumstances were deemed to be inadequate; thirdly, to grant pensions in cases of great hardship where pensions for one reason or another had not been given to our disabled soldiers and sailors; and fourthly, to make some provision for the training and employment of disabled soldiers and sailors. These functions being very important, obviously they required machinery and money if they were promptly to be carried out. After the Bill had passed a good deal of criticism was directed towards its financial machinery, and a good deal of anxiety was expressed as far as the money was concerned. The Chancellor of the Exchequer in this House, and Lord Lansdowne and Lord Crewe in another place, gave assurances to the House and the country that, although they hoped that the benevolent public would continue to pour their patriotic offerings into the coffers of the Patriotic Fund, they gave assurances that from time to time substantial grants of money from the Exchequer would be forthcoming for the purposes of the Statutory Committee. It is in pursuance of those promises that this Bill is brought in to make a Grant of £1,000,000 for the purposes of the Statutory Committee which I have sketched to the House. The House will observe that this is a Grant towards meeting the expenses of the Statutory Committee, and the words are social conditions or position or the state of her health, the rent of the house, or whether she had ever been capable of work or had worked. There was always to be a flat rate of 10s. provided she was under thirty-five years of age.
If we base our system on a flat rate, and if we were to conform to our ideals of providing for those who suffered in this War some equality of sacrifice, it was obvious that you must set up some body to which you could entrust the difficult and delicate task of adding a supplementary pension in all cases of exceptional distress, where the pre-war income and circumstances made it impossible for a widow or a person to live upon the flat rate pension without making the sacrifice which we should all feel we have no right to call upon her to make. That was the real basis of the whole system of pensions adopted by this House. I want to say at once as a member of the Government that if the full rate of pensions laid down in this House both for widows, orphans, dependants, and disabled is generously awarded by the War Office and by the Admiralty, and if it is not whittled away by restrictions in Royal "Warrants and Orders in Council, or by a too rigid and too harsh interpretation, then I say the system of pensions which was laid down by this House exceeds in magnitude and generosity anything that has ever been done by any country, or is being done by any country at the present time. I shall have something to say about those Royal Warrants and the interpretation placed upon them at a later period, but I say now that if these pensions are generously given and awarded upon a State basis, and if the full pension is given, still when you come to think of the kind of men that you are enlisting in your present Army, such as you have never called upon to fight for you before as private soldiers; when you come to think of their pre-war income, the kind of houses in which their wives and children live, and the way in which they have been brought up, the inabilty of many of those widows to work, when you think of these pre-war circumstances, then I believe everyone will agree that it is necessary to supplement those sums.
This one million pounds is to supplement the widows' pensions, the pensions of dependants other than widows and orphans, to give pensions where they have been withheld possibly for a good reason under State Regulation by the War Office or the Admiralty acting through Chelsea and Greenwich hospitals, and then to provide sums which will be necessary if we are to do something besides mere pensions for those who are disabled either from wounds or disease. For all these purposes that million will be used so far as it will go. So far as disablement is concerned, the Act instructed the Committee to set up a Special Committee mainly composed of employers and employed to deal with the disabled part of the question, and to provide for the care, training, and employment of disabled soldiers and sailors. That Committee we have formed, and it is a very powerful and influential one, composed largely of representatives of employers and employed, and already they are considering schemes presented to them from various quarters in connection with that subject. Up to the present the Labour Exchanges are doing a good deal to provide employment for those who have been discharged from the Army with pensions or without pensions, and it will be our duty to co-operate with the Labour Exchanges in providing employment of a kind suited to those who have been partially disabled and therefore unable to take advantage of the ordinary labour market.
Perhaps the House would like to hear something as regards the number of those who have been injured in this War and who are disabled through their wounds. Up to the present there are 3,818 cases of amputations which have been notified at the main hospital in Roehampton up to the 1st March. Of these 1,628 have already been to Roehampton and 932 have been discharged with properly fitted artificial limbs. I am glad to say that those artificial limbs are a very vast improvement on the limbs that used to be served out to the unfortunate victims of former wars. At present there is a waiting list of 2,027, which will have to be seriously considered by the Statutory Committee. The cases are being notified at the rate of 300 per month.
The blind of all countries, of all ages, have always excited special compassion, and I trust always will, but up to the present the main care of the blind in this country has fallen upon Mr. C. Arthur Pearson, whose work at St. Dunstan's is really beyond all praise. There the blind are having everything done for them that human kindness and science can do. Some 200 have either passed through, or will shortly pass through, a period of training at St. Dunstan's. We reckon if the number of blinded soldiers up to the present time numbers 200 that before the end of the present War we shall have a very much larger number. St. Dunstan's is limited, and we may either have to help Mr. Pearson to provide another St. Dunstan or provide another St. Dunstan for ourselves. It is obvious that only in some such institution can the blind be given a new life, and adapt themselves to their new circumstances. Then there are the paralysed. Not much can be done for them, except to provide them with a home where they will receive every comfort in the remaining years of their life, and where life, at least, may be made tolerable for them. That work has been already undertaken by those who are responsible for starting this big hospital at the old Star and Garter at Richmond. Then there are the nervous cases, perhaps the most pitiable of all cases. They require good food, good air, and plenty of sun, if that be possible in this climate of ours. There ought to be special provision for them, and that special provision will have to last for many years after the War.
I am a strong advocate of one body which shall have supervision over all this vast theatre of operations. I believe it is only by trusting to some one body the supervision and oversight of all the victims of the War, and putting that body under the control and responsibility of the House of Commons, that we can absolutely ensure that something shall be done for everybody, and that after this War there will be no victims who will not be able to say, "My voice has been heard, and my voice has met with something more than compassionate consideration, and that consideration has taken the form, if not of cure, because that is impossible, at all events of care." That is the great object which this body ought to accomplish—the supervision of all these unfortunate persons, who have to endure great suffering and loss for the good of their country and all of us. The House will ask for some kind of estimate: "How far do you think that this £1,000,000 will go? On what will it be spent? Will you be coming for more millions?" I am quite sure that the House will appreciate the extraordinary difficulty of making an estimate or any calculation at all.
None of this money will be refunded? You are going to spend it all?
We shall invest it for a time, probably in short-dated Treasury Bills, but I am afraid it will very soon disappear. We shall see what we have got to spend, but the data on which we can form any estimate is of the most meagre description, because no one can foretell how long the War will last, or how many widows and disabled soldiers will emerge from these fields of horrible carnage. All I can do is to tell the House what we know already, and what we can know with a little organisation and a little inquiry. This is what we actually know: The total number of widows of non-commissioned officers and men reported by the Army Council up to the 1st March is 41,500. Of these, there are actually in receipt of pensions 23,106. The House will recollect that the separation allowance is continued for twenty-six weeks after the notification of death, so as to give time to look into all the circumstances. Therefore, there are 18,394 still in receipt of separation allowance. Only 800 are said to have been refused the pension. There may be cases in which it would be appropriate that this body should give a pension though the State may not be able to do so. The number of widows of men in the Navy to whom pensions have been granted is 4,180, the number in receipt of separation allowance is 420, and the number who have been refused pensions is 48, the reasons given being that death did not arise out of the War, or that the wife was not supported for some period before the death of her husband. I cannot say how many of these will be considered worthy to receive pensions from us. The question is how many of these widows— something like 50,000 up to the present time—will require, or ought to receive, the supplementary pension. We had to consider this, and the Statutory Committee have already come to the conclusion that what we ought to aim at is to make up the income of the widow with children to two-thirds of the pre-war income. That is the scale which we have adopted. The House will readily see that under the Government scale of 10s. a week for a widow, if you add the sums allowed for children, is quite a good rate of pension for those whose husbands were only in receipt of wages in the agricultural districts, such as 15s. a week. Let me give some examples. Take the case of the widow of an agricultural labourer who has two children, where the pre-war income was 15s. per week. She will immediately get 18s. 6d. She will actually be better off than she was when her husband was-alive, and he will not have to be kept out of the money. It is a different state of things when you get to an income of 30s. a week.
Might I point out that there are no incomes of 15s. a week if you take the Board of Agriculture returns.
I quite agree, and I will take another figure which will be more satisfactory. I will take an income of 20s. The pension there for a widow with two children is 18s. 6d., or very nearly equal to the whole income of the family before. That pension will rise to 21s. when she is thirty-five years of age,, so that when she is thirty-five she will actually get more money for herself and her two children than she got when her husband was alive.
Might I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the Statutory Committee have the power to alter the scale which has been decided by the Pensions Committee and practically approved by this House? That really seems to me to be a very important point.
I cannot say that it is an important point at all, because it is perfectly obvious that our whole object is to supplement the State pension. The State pension does amount to two-thirds of the pre-War income in cases where the total income was small. Now I take the case of the widow with two children where the income was 30s. a week. She gets 18s. 6d., the same, or 61.7 per cent. of her previous income. Let us take the case of the widow with two children where the pre-War income was £3. She only gets 18s. 6d., exactly the same, and that is only 30.8 of the pre-War income. Even when she gets to thirty-five she only receives 35.6 of the pre-War income, and when she is forty-five years of age she only gets 39.2 of the pre-War income of 60s. I am told that there will be thousands of those cases; of higher incomes, where the clerk or the small professional man had a pre-War income of £3, £4, £5, or £6 a week. It is very hard to put them on a flat rate. It is not hard on the poorer people, because the flat rate already gives them sometimes more than the actual income which they enjoyed before, and it always gives them at least two-thirds of the pre-War income. Those are the cases for which we have to-make suitable provision, and the Statutory Committee have arrived at the conclusion that it will endeavour to make up the total income of the widow with two children to two-thirds of the pre-War income, but that it must impose a maximum. After all, it has only been provided at present with a million of money, and we do not yet know what the views of the House are on this question of supplementing the pensions, though we do know what the views of the House are on State pensions. This is what we have agreed upon up to the present: That all incomes must be written at £156 per year, or £3 per week, and that all we can do is to make the total income up to two-thirds of that amount, which is £2 per week, or £104 per year. We do not think we can afford to do more, and when we see how closely we are treading on the heels of the pensions for officers of the lower grades, we think that we are doing right, at all events at the outset, in saying that we cannot make up incomes to more than £2 per week, or £104 a year. That is the conclusion to which the Statutory Committee has come, without, I think, any exception and after much debate.
We quite recognise that even then there will be cases of hardship, especially as regards the education of children. We have laid it down that so far as we possibly can we will ensure that the children shall have the kind of education, and as good an education, as they would have had if the father had been living, and we think we shall be able to manage that by means of the offers we have already received from schools and offers which we hope to receive. There is another consideration after that. It is possible by good management to live on a small income, but we hope to make provision also for exceptional cases of sickness. Therefore, in addition to making up the income to £104, and in doing what we can to provide money and means of education for the children, we hope also to give sick allowances to cover long periods of sickness, as well as operations, and so on. That is as far as we think we can go for the present, until, at any rate, we know what the opinion of the House is, what the opinion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is, and how far we are likely to obtain money from private sources for all this work. I have indicated to the House that already we have nearly 50,000 widows of non-commissioned officers and men to deal with. Then I come to the case of the dependants other than widows and orphans. The number is practically the same as the number of widows and orphans—about 50,000—who are actually receiving separation allowances at the present moment. We have to ask ourselves again how far many of these dependants will require supplementary pensions, will need it and deserve it, on the same system as is laid down for the pensions of a widow and orphans.
Is the right hon. Gentleman talking of all dependants, or only the dependants on the scales?
I am talking of all dependants other than widows and orphans.
Who are receiving pensions now?
Yes
There are a great many more dependants who have not claimed pensions now, but whom your Committee will have to deal with, and I want to ask my right hon. Friend if he is including those.
I have not dealt with those who are not receiving pensions.
The widows are divided into two classes—those receiving pensions, and those having separation allowances. I want to ask whether these 50,000 dependants consist of the same classes. I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say they were all receiving pensions.
No; if I said that it was a mistake. But I do not think this will give us very much assistance in ultimately deciding who shall get pensions and what pensions they shall have. I come now to those who are not in receipt of any pension. They are a very large number, and there, again, it is impossible to do more than lay down some general principle on which you will give pensions to widows and dependants who are not in receipt of any pension at all. We shall have very carefully to examine cases where the War Office or the Admiralty have not awarded these pensions. When we are asked to give pensions in cases where the War Office and the Admiralty either have not given pensions, or have awarded less than they could award, obviously we shall have to call for papers, and we shall have to look at those papers from the point of view whether the case is one of very great hardship, and whether, in our opinion, a pension ought to be given. We have been very fairly met by the Admiralty in this matter. They have already agreed that we shall have all the papers, and so, in connection with those cases where a claim is made upon us for a pension, either by a widow, or by a dependant, or by a disabled sailor, we shall have the right to see the grounds on which the Admiralty refused to grant a State Pension. We shall have more than that right. We shall have the right to make representations to the Admiralty, to request them to review their decision, if possible. We shall, as it were, act as a kind of Court of Revision from the Admiralty. But as long as this money is charged on their Vote they will and must insist on having the final decision.
We have not yet had an answer from the War Office, but I hope they will look at the matter from the same point of view as the Admiralty and enable us to obtain possession of the papers with a view to seeing whether we agree or not with the reason given for refusing a State pension, either to the widow or the dependant or the disabled man. The House will see it really will be impossible for us to say we ought to give a pension unless we know all the circumstances in which the State pension was refused in the particular case. Now I come to another part of the subject, and that is the number of disabled—the number who have been discharged as unfit from wounds and disease, and who have been awarded pensions and grants by Chelsea Hospital. The number from 14th August, 1914, until 9th March, 1916, is 30,255. The number of those who have been refused either a pension or a grant is 15,105. Of the 30,255 final pensions have been given to 5,470, 1,356 have been awarded provisional pensions, and 23,429 conditional pensions which have to be reviewed later. These are the figures supplied to me, and it gives us some idea of the problem that is before us with regard to the disabled. While these 15,105 have hitherto been refused any pension or grant by Chelsea Hospital, that was before the great concession made by the Government the other day, when they said that instead of insisting on proof being given that their disease was due wholly and directly to their military service, they would now instruct Chelsea Hospital to give pensions where the disease had been aggravated by military service.
Personally, I am exceedingly glad that that concession has been made, because it may go very far to save our money. Undoubtedly these cases would appeal very strongly to us where the disease, although not originating through military service, had been aggravated by military service, and a very large part of our £1,000,000 would probably have gone to provide pensions in cases where the State had not thought to give them. My own view on this point may be put very shortly. I cannot help thinking that if you have taken a man into the Army or the Navy and he can prove to you he was earning quite good wages and doing good work before he enlisted, and then you send him abroad or put him on board a ship and expose him to great hardships, with the result that his incipient or latent disease came out and was aggravated to some extent and he was discharged, and if he returns to civil life and is no longer able, however willing he may be, to earn anything like the same wage in the market, I cannot help thinking that there the State should have some difficulty in saying that no obligation whatever lies upon it to give that man a pension. There, again, I would point out how extraordinarily difficult it is to make any calculation as to how far this £1,000,000 will go.
I am very anxious that at the earliest possible moment the local committees which are being set up all over the country shall make a complete survey of the whole field. It is perfectly easy to do so. We have framed a, return to send round to them, and we have asked them to supply, on a common form, the numbers of widows and orphans of disabled, whether partially or totally, and of dependants. There is no reason why, in a few months' time, we should not have a perfect record of all what I may call "the victims of war," and, having got that, there is no reason why we should not be able to keep it up to date, and then we shall have a complete supervision over the. whole of this unfortunate human wreckage to which we owe so much. As the House knows, the Act enjoins the setting up of local committees, and the Statutory Committee is very busily engaged in doing that. It has framed a model scheme which went out on the 9th of this month, and up to the present time we have received fifty back. Of that number something like one-half have been approved. The House ought to be made aware of the extreme difficulties which are being experienced in getting the local committee into operation, into real working order. Schemes have to be framed. They have to go down to the county council or borough council, which in its turn sends back a scheme of which we have to approve. Then the various parties have to nominate their representatives. It is slow work bringing the machinery into working order, but I hope it will be completed and in working order before very long, and that we shall have our network of machinery over this country in a few months. Meanwhile the National Relief Committee are unwilling to shoulder the burden of paying out these extra separation allowances to soldiers' and sailors' wives after the 30th June. They have spent £2,000,000 or £2,500,000 for that purpose.
£3,000,000.
We are only too grateful to the Committee for having financed the operation. We are very grateful also to the Soldiers' and Sailors' Association and to the local committees for the work which they have done in this connection. We shall ask the National Relief Committee to carry on this work for us, and we are very grateful to them for consenting to do so until we are able to get into perfect working order our own local machinery for that purpose.
Now, as to the expenditure of these local committees. The Act contemplates that all the expenses of the Statutory Committee, except the salary of the Vice-Chairman, shall be paid out of the funds at its disposal, and that all the expenses of the local committees shall be paid out of the funds at their disposal, supplemented by any grants which the Central Body may make. I am quite sure that everybody will agree that we do not want our money to go in salaries to officials, in heavy office expenses, in large salaries, and in largely paid machinery. We want as much of the money as possible to go directly into the pockets of those whom we desire to benefit. I cannot help thinking that all these local bodies, when they come to think what a large sum of national money is going to flow into their districts through their channels, will be willing to shoulder the very small burden we are asking them to bear in this Bill, namely, that they will rate themselves, not for the purpose of adding to a single pension or for any pension purposes, but for the purely administrative purposes of this Act. We have consulted many chairmen of county councils and borough councils, and at present we have found no opposition to the idea that this very small expense might well be found out of the rates. I think it will be a very small expense, because I believe an immense amount of voluntary work is to be got out of the people for this purpose, and that a great number of people after this War will still desire to give every service they can for the help and assistance of these people to whom we cannot put our debt too high. The expenses ought not to be large. Once we have fixed the supplemental pensions to widows, we propose—the Admiralty and the War Office are quite willing, I believe, to do it—that the supplemental pension shall be added to the State pension and sent down every week, both payments coming from the same source, so that there will be no expense there. No doubt the chief local expenditure will be in conection with schemes for the disabled. There will be, perhaps, a considerable expense in places like Glasgow, Manchester, and some of the mining districts. We think that we might have the loan of the town halls, or some room in the town halls, and the part services of some of the officials. They are, as a rule, most generous and patriotic people. We believe that in this way a large amount of money can be saved if the local authorities will consent to put that very small amount of expenditure on the rates for that purpose.
Hear, hear!
I am very glad to have the support of such an authority as my hon. Friend in this matter.
I am not sure about the rates. I did not say anything about them.
I have been a great champion of the ratepayers all my life, and I still think the very small expenditure that will be required for the purely administrative purposes of the Act might well come out of the rates, and that the State, the rates, and private benevolence might well join hands for such a patriotic purpose, particularly when you come to think, as we all do think, that this is not the last million pounds the State will give, or will be asked to give, for such a purpose. I believe that local patriotism will rise to the occasion. I have every belief that the various localities will vie with one another in seeing which locality can do the best for the victims of the War over its area. The Bill only gives an option to local authorities to rate themselves for this purpose, and perhaps some of them will say, "We shall only rate ourselves for this purpose if you, the Central Body, make some kind of conjoint grant for that purpose." At any rate, they have the opportunity of striking a bargain in that way if they like.
The question is how far will the £1,000,000 go? That must depend on the conditions of eligibility for supplemental pensions for the widows and supplemental pensions for the dependants. It must depend largely upon the amount we get from human compassion and sympathy in addition to the State funds. It depends upon how generous a view Chelsea and Greenwich take of the new Warrants and the new Orders in Council. It must also depend upon the size of the programme for the disabled. I have already heard rumours of gifts. I believe we shall get gifts. So far as agriculture is concerned, we shall be able to work with the Board of Agriculture in regard to land settlement and matters of that kind. I believe you will find counties combining for this purpose, and also areas combining for this purpose. I believe we are going to have large gifts made, and if they are wisely and sensibly administered, all sorts of things may come for the good of these people. How far the £1,000,000 will go will depend on how long we have to finance out of that £1,000,000 the extra separation allowances now being advanced by the National Relief Committee. What do I mean by that? The extra separation allowances allowed are mainly for extra rent. They amount to £80,000 a month—call it, roundly, £1,000,000 a year. We shall have to take over that charge after the 30th June, unless the Statutory Committee are driven to the conclusion that they have not the money, and that, therefore, these extra allowances for rent which have been given so liberally up to the present can no longer be given. Personally, I should think that would be a very serious and a very painful state of things. I cannot help thing that, on the whole, that money has been wisely spent. But we are now confronted with this situation, that the men who are being enlisted to-day are living in better houses, and are going to have great difficulties with their rent if they have enlisted on the pay of a private soldier. Instead of less being asked for in that way, in all human probability an extra allowance for rent will have to be asked for for that purpose, and more may have to be given.
Then how far the £1,000,000 will go will also depend on the administrative expenses of the statutory body. I might say a word about that. Up to the present we have had no offices. The Office of Works have not been able to find them—so they say—and we have had to live in a state of great misery and discomfort in such offices as we could borrow, and we have had to work under very difficult conditions with a staff lent us by the Royal Patriotic Fund Corporation. I hope that state of things will pass away. When it has passed away, I hope we are never going to spend very lavish sums on offices or a central staff. Good offices we must have for work like this, and, in addition, a small but efficient central staff. I hope that all along the line, from the central office down to all the local offices, we may keep down office and administrative expenses as low as possible, and that this may be a labour of love into which many people will throw their hearts, as, indeed, they have thrown their hearts up to the present time.
Is the £1,000,000 to be funded?
It will be invested in short Treasury Bills, because we shall probably want the £1,000,000 very soon indeed. I am not going to call this an estimate. I have given the House the best facts and figures that I could. Later on we may be able to give them more, but even with the flimsy material at their command I think the House will readily grant the £1,000,000 asked for to-day. We approach this question, which is a very difficult task, conscious that after the War at all events, if not during the War, this nation will have many burdens to bear, that when we have spent our capital and have to pay the interest on that capital, then there will be heavy taxation, and, in some quarters, great impoverishment. But while we are conscious of that, and while therefore we must carefully husband and guard any moneys that are given to us for wise distribution, we are also, every one of us, conscious of the fact that such national wealth as will be left to us, and such freedom, liberties, and privileges as we are likely to enjoy, we shall enjoy largely owing to the fact that these men have sacrificed their lives and given up everything, and that to the men who have sacrificed their lives, who have hoped all things and endured all things, who have suffered agony of mind and of body and privations such as we cannot describe, we owe a great debt indeed, and we must pay it. I would like to quote to the House, in conclusion, words used by the Prime Minister and by the then Leader of the Opposition, when this question was discussed more than a year ago. On the 11th November, 1914, the Prime Minister said:
"I can assure the House that there is no subject which has given the Government more anxious thought and consideration.…We have no motive of any sort or kind for failure in liberality or generosity. On the contrary, our motive is the other way. We want to get as many recruits as we can to the Colours, and therefore, we, of all people in the world, are under the greatest possible stimulus to act with liberality, even lavish liberality, and I should be extremely sorry—a sorrow which I believe will be shared not only by the right hon. Gentleman, but by my hon. Friends, Members of the Labour Party below the gangway—if there appeared to be any competition in this matter between the different parties. It would be a shocking misuse of the tragic opportunity of the War to indulge in any kind of auction. Nothing could be worse, and I am certain nothing is further from the thoughts and intention of every party in this House." [OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th November, 1914, col. 30, Vol. LXVIII.]
The then Leader of the Opposition, the right hon. Gentleman who is now Secretary of State for the Colonies, said on the same occasion:
"We want to treat these people fairly and generously.… I do say that if we are to make one mistake or the other I would rather that we should make the mistake of spending more than perhaps is good for the country, or than the country could easily afford, than see the dependants of the men who have died for us, or the men who are disabled on our behalf, ending their days in abject penury." [OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th November, 1914, cols. 23–4, Vol. LXVIII.]
Those words express the views of the whole House, and I trust that to-day we shall live up to the whole spirit and letter of those promises made on our behalf, and that as an earnest of our intention this House will readily vote £1,000,000, for which I am now asking.
8.0 P.M.
The House is indebted to the right hon. Gentleman for a very fine and exhaustive statement of the position in regard to the War, the number of the victims of the War, and the probable number of the victims of the War. I might also say, I am sure with theassent of everybody who knows anything about the matter, that the dependants of the soldiers who will be killed in this War are to be congratulated upon the fact that the right hon. Gentleman has charge of this Bill, and will have charge, more or less, of the disbursement of the money that will be granted under it, because to my knowledge there is no one who has a better record or who has done more for the soldier's widow already than the right hon. Gentleman. I congratulate him upon the fact that at last public opinion has risen to meet the claims of the widows and dependants of the soldiers in a far more generous maner than public opinion had developed at the time of the Boer War, when, largely owing to his efforts, the wretched sum of 5s. was given for the first time to the soldier's widow. We are asked to vote £1,000,000. The right hon. Gentleman said he was sure that the House, having endorsed the flat rate allowance of pension, would also be disposed to vote the sum necessary to give this supplementary pension. I think he need have no misgivings on that point and that the House would be quite willing, and I am sure people outside would be quite willing, to give considerable sums supplementary to the pension already given under the flat rate. I think he has been too modest and that the £1,000,000 will not go very far when once you begin to spend it to meet the claims which are already accruing. For instance, the right hon. Gentleman has just told us that £80,000 are spent every month in respect of additional separation allowances. I take it that will all come within the £1,000,000 after 30th June. Therefore that alone is going to cost, shall I say, £100,000 a month, and probably one-tenth of the £1,000,000 will have to be spent month by month in meeting these separation allowance supplementary grants alone. It seems to me that is the best way in which the much-discussed question of the married men can be dealt with. I have heard a great deal about the moratorium and about piling up debts for the man to meet when he comes home. I have heard talk about complicated schemes of assisting married men, and complicated schemes of the Government paying some part of the rent and local authorities paying other parts of the rent of married men who are called to the front. But to my mind this is the simplest way of all. Here you have machinery set up by which you can meet a man's claim for rent or his claim in respect to any additional expense that he and his family may be put to and treat him according to his pre-war income- There is one rather disquieting figure that the right hon. Gentleman gave, and it is in respect to the pensions which have been given and the number of pensions which have been refused by the War Office to disabled soldiers. It now transpires that the position is even worse than we expected it to be, and in all conscience it is bad enough, according to the figures already given. If my memory serves me right it was stated some few weeks ago that 12,000 pensions had been refused to applicants by Chelsea, and it now appears that there have been no fewer than 15,015 refused. The figures for the Admiralty were given as well, 800 being refused there, and mention was made of the difference in the form of treatment as between the Admiralty and the War Office. That seems to me to emphasise the need for one body dealing with all these claims for pensions. I was very glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman give his adhesion to that.
That was promised.
Not to my knowledge.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer promised it.
At all events, it is not yet in sight.
It was not passed.
Yes, it was.
I have heard of no such promise. The right hon. Gentleman will, no doubt, give his influence wherever it can be given most effectively in the way of getting that done as rapidly as possible, because I think it has been made apparent during the last few months that there has been a great deal of muddle and that the War Office, at all events, has not treated this matter as it ought to have been treated, but has concocted Royal Warrants on its own account quite out of accordance with the mandate given to it. It is perfectly true that the Admiralty has been a little more generous, but the time has gone for two or three bodies dealing with this matter on contrary principles, and therefore making confusion all over the country, and I hope that as speedily as possible something will be done by legislation or otherwise—I do not know that legislation is necessary, but if it is, let us have it—by which we shall have one body to deal with this very important matter, so that it may be dealt with on uniform principles, and not only that, but dealt with by a body which will be more-democratic than the present bodies are-that deal with it.
In regard to the disabled men the right hon. Gentleman let fall an observation—I do not know whether it was in the direction of congratulating himself and the House or not—but he said the Labour Exchanges had already provided employment for these disabled men. I am afraid the Labour Exchanges are not the best bodies to provide that employment, and that they are simply having regard to the number of jobs that they can find and are not at all particular about the wages to be paid. To my mind in one respect this is a most important aspect of the problem that presents itself to us. It is important because of its industrial and economic aspect. I am really dismayed at present that some further advance has not been made to deal with these disabled men. I was glad to see the Report issued the other day of the Committee presided over by the hon. Baronet (Sir H. Verney), which gives evidence that the subject has been surveyed with more knowledge and sympathy than has been shown before by any Committee of which I have knowledge. That Committee has decided on recommending the Government to set apart, I think, £2,000,000 to set up colonies. The Government are to give £2,000,000 to buy land for that purpose. They are going to spend money, as I understand, in instructing those colonists who have not sufficient knowledge to work a small farm on their own account. They have recommended that, pending the men being able to take charge of a small farm for himself, he is to be employed at a minimum wage—I forget the terms used, but the principle is fairly well adumbrated in that Report that the man, while working for wages, shall not be paid the wretched competitive wage that agricultural labourers have been paid in times gone by, but shall be paid a wage which is something like the amount necessary to maintain a man in decency and comfort. I should have been very glad rather to have seen a particular sum mentioned. However, I hope that will be given a generous interpretation when we come to deal with it.
That is one way of dealing with the men so far as the country is concerned, but, after all, that only touches a very small number. The number of disabled men, so far as I understand, is about 45,000, only 30,255 of whom have pensions. The Report says that even if the Government spends £2,000,000 it will only settle about 5,000 families, so that by far the largest number of these men will fall to be dealt with by some committees or some persons who will deal with them in the towns. As a trade unionist who knows something of the battles for the standard of living which have been fought and won by trade unionism, I want to see some provision made as speedily as possible whereby the remaining 40,000 men, and possibly another 40,000 men before the War is over, will be dealt with in some way whereby the conditions offered will not be such as to bring down the wages of workers in the towns. How it is to be done, I am not in a position to say at present. It may be necessary to wall off, so to speak, some trades and let the disabled soldiers monopolise those trades, or it may be possible, by getting roped in a large number of employers, to agree to give these men employment in the works at standard rates of wages. I hope that at no distant date something will be arranged whereby these soldiers who are coming back disabled and going to the towns and turning to industrial employment shall not be used, as they have been used in times gone by, by employers to reduce the standard of living.
The right hon. Gentleman gave a great many figures in regard to the number of widows, the number of blind, and the number of paralysed and nerve-broken men. It is not my business now to enter into a discussion of these matters, but there is one thing I should like to say in regard to the maximum of £2. It has been decided by the Committee to fix up a scale of supplementary pensions which is to stop, so to speak, at £2. There has been a good deal of discussion as to whether or not it is advisable to have that maximum. I may be condemned for saying so, but I think £2 is a fairly good pension to pay. I know there may be hard cases of men who have had £5 or £6 a week before they went to the War, and it may be said, and it has been said, on behalf of the widows and orphans they have left behind, that if two-thirds of the pay is to be given, the widows of these men with £6 a week ought to have £4 a week. But it becomes a question where you are going to stop. It may be said in regard to a man who had £1,000 a year that his widow should have £600 a year. When you get above £3 a week you are dealing with people of a fairly good standard of education and with those who have a good many friends in a position to help them, and, after all, we might leave them to paddle their own canoe, supplemented by that £2 which has been mentioned. I think £2 is a fairly good pension, and I rejoice to know we have got so far as to give that sum. It is a fairly good step in advance of anything to which we have been accustomed prior to this War, and I suppose, except that our own Colonies pay more, where the standard of living has been a good deal higher, it is a great deal better than anything that has been paid in the whole world for any war. I am thankful that we have got so far. In regard to the £1,000,000, as the right hon. Gentleman has said, it is not a question of investing it and spending the income. It is a question of spending the £1,000,000. It is to be put into short loans. They will have to be very short, because the £1,000,000 will not last long. I hope the Committee, in dealing with it, will not be deterred by the fact that the £1,000,000 will not go far, but will spend the £1,000,000 generously and will come back for more millions as soon as possible.
This is the most important subject that the House of Commons has been called upon to discuss for some time, and I am extremely sorry that we have been forced by the exigencies of Parliamentary procedure to have the discussion upon the Report stage of the financial Resolution, because one can do so very little on that, except to make speeches which cannot afterwards be turned into the Division Lobby on the sums which are mentioned. I am very glad that the Minister of Munitions has come in and I hope he will remain in the House for a few minutes. We will let him go quickly if he will take note of one point. This is a Bill by which the Government are giving us £1,000,000. That is only one-fifth of the daily expenditure upon the War. I want to put this point to the Minister of Munitions because he is the most powerful member of the Cabinet, at any rate from the point of view of his human interest in the results of the War. He told us the other day, for instance, that he was extremely interested in humanising industry, and I know also from his sympathy and interest that he realises, as a member of the Cabinet, that we must have fair, generous and complete treatment of the results of the War in the widows and children who remain. We do not often have the chance of the presence of the Minister of Munitions at these Debates, and I want to put this direct question to him. The £1,000,000 we are taking by this financial Resolution are going to be put on short loans, we are told by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hayes Fisher), in order to do certain things. He has given us a certain number of figures and he has told us the number of widows now totals 50,000. I could spend the £1,000,000 for him inside the next half second. The £1,000,000 that we are taking now will not provide each of these widows with more than 8s. additional per week for the remainder of this year, and you do not touch a single dependant, of whom there are another 50,000; you do not touch any single disabled man, of whom there are another 50,000. In addition you have all the proceeds of the War yet in the way of wounded that will come to us from the engagements overseas. That is what I want the Minister of Munitions to give his attention to, and that is why I departed from the line of my argument in order to interest him. This £1,000,000 is absolutely inadequate for the problem with which we are faced, and my right hon. Friend, who has been Chancellor of the Exchequer so long, and knows his way through figures as he knows his way through public opinion, will, if he sits down to the problem, see that £1,000,000 is an absolutely impossible sum. I am, there-fore, extremely sorry that we are forced to discuss the matter on the Report stage of the financial resolution.
We have this proposal made by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board (Mr. Hayes Fisher), and the House will agree that in the right hon. Gentleman we have a Minister who knows the problem that he is talking about. I know from long experience that he has touched the problem at practically every point, and that he does not require to be urged to go further. The only difficulty that he has is the same difficulty that we have, and that is that the Government to which he belongs will not provide him with sufficient material to go further than he is going. Therefore, we are in an unfortunate position in criticising, because the Minister can reply that we are pushing a half-open door, and it is not much use doing that, because the door opens into nothing. Then when we have pushed it fully open in debate there is nobody in the room, the Cabinet has risen, and there is nobody who can determine the question of money. I think this governs the whole matter. The question of the money re- quired by the Statutory Committee depends altogether upon the liability which the Government are going to take over in regard to the widows and dependants of those who are killed or wounded during the War. Only last week we had a concession for which we were extremely grateful. We were given four-fifths of the total pension to disabled soldiers, whose disability resulted from disease which developed in the course of their service with the Colours. But this concession has not yet been explained to the House. Does that four-fifths which is to be paid in the case of the disabled soldier extend to the widow and children of that man if he dies? My right hon. Friend will see the point at once. The soldier who has developed disease in the ranks while he is with the Colours, and is discharged, gets at once, according to the decision of last week, four-fifths of the full pension. But suppose he dies and leaves a widow and children. Are they or are they not entitled to four-fifths of the full pension? My right hon. Friend will see at once, and so will my colleague, that if you are going to give four-fifths of the full pension to the widows and children that will make an enormous difference to my right hon. Friend's money, if the State are going to provide that. I do not know whether he is able to do that or not. I presume he is not able to do it, because questions have been put since the original statement was made and we have not had a complete answer yet.
I am not really empowered to give a decision upon that matter. It is a matter of State pension, not of supplementary pension, which the Government must decide. All I can say is that if the man who is disabled can prove that the disablement has been aggravated by military service, he is awarded, because the disablement has been aggravated by military service, a pension for the rest of his life, and there would be some logic in saying that if his death occurred and his death was due to some disease which had been aggravated by war service, the widow ought to have the same claim to widow's pension that he had to the pension when he was living. There would be some logic in that, but I am not empowered to make any declaration upon that subject.
That is perfectly right. The right hon. Gentleman cannot give an answer. He is in the same difficulty in which we find ourselves in this debate, because obviously the amount of money that my right hon. Friend wants depends altogether upon the liabilities which the State will undertake. The more liabilities the State undertakes, the less money my right hon. Friend will require. I am certain, apart from that, that this £1,000,000 is quite inadequate. I should like to know the way in which this sum of £1,000,000 could at once be changed into £5,000,000. It is perfectly obvious, from the figures which have been supplied tonight, that this £1,000,000 will not last the time that it takes to print the Act, which we have had to pass in order to get it, and that you should have to come back again for a great deal of money straightaway. I am glad that that sum is to be spent and is to be put upon a short Treasury Loan, and that there is no intention of any part of that £1,000,000 being kept funded and the interest only spent. That of course would be foolish. My right hon. Friend will not want to do it.
I suggest short Treasury Bills.
Yes, but when the money is given to Committees we know how it is dealt with. Frequently people say when they get their money, "We shall make this kind of use of it." I agree with my right hon. Friend that this money is being given to spend, and the sooner it is spent and that he comes back for more, the better a great many of us will be pleased. There is a point with which I am more concerned at the moment than any other, and which, I understand, will be raised later in the Debate by some of my Welsh Friends. I am speaking purely from the Scottish point of view. I understand that my right hon. Friend has had some communication about it already. He has spoken of the work of the local committees. There will be shortly over the four kingdoms a network of local committees, working in conjunction with the Statutory Committee in London. What we feel in Scotland is that we shall have a sufficient number of disabled sailors and soldiers to enable us as a country to deal with our own problems, and that, so far as supplementary pensions are concerned, there will be so many people in Scotland who will require supplementary pensions, in addition to those given by the State, that that, too, can be made a separate problem for the people of Scotland. When, in the past, Scotland has been asked to provide money for national purposes we have had continually the experience of contributing, in proportion to our size as a nation, much more money than any other part of the United Kingdom attribute to the traditional meanness of the Scot.
It is really amazing that a city like Glasgow has given in the course of the present War much more than Liverpool, Manchester, and Newcastle put together. Probably the money contributed in those cities was given by the Scots who are resident there. At any rate, in Scotland we have had the experience of contributing money which has never come back from the national point of view. It is not appreciated, in connection with the National Relief Fund and the Prince of Wales' Fund, that Scotland has given enormous contributions and has had very little back. In regard to these supplementary pensions, I am perfectly certain that my right hon. Friend knows—one is talking with knowledge, because I know that all the great municipalities of Scotland have met and discussed this problem and passed resolutions upon it—that they are determined to raise no money in Scotland for any general fund. They are prepared to raise money to deal with supplementary pensions so far as Scottish cases are concerned, and they desire, as a nation, to deal with their own part of the problem. That desire is shared by others than the people of Scotland. It is the desire of the people in Wales. My right hon. Friend will recognise that that is a perfectly legitimate point of which he can take great advantage. It is perfectly obvious that if you have in London a Statutory Committee, on which, after all, there are only three Scotsmen, and they are not elected to that Committee in any popular way, but are placed there by other people, they are always overwhelmed by their colleagues on the Committee.
You have done very well.
That is quite true; that is why we are going to do so very much better. We in Scotland know what we want to do and know how to stick to it until we get what we want. And in this case we are backed by the other portion of the Celtic fringe, Wales, and our request will be granted much more speedily. The members of that Committee meet in London from remote Scotland, while you have on the local committees all the active municipal life of Scotland, with the co-opted people, interested in the administration of those pensions, also on those committees. They are willing to take that kind of interest, and have got that kind of national enthusiasm that is required. I want to know whether the Statutory Committee here in London is prepared to recognise this national resolution of the pensions scheme? It is perfectly true that we shall have, in dealing with this problem, to take a census of the agencies that exist for relief, and we shall have to avoid all overlapping. I think that that can be done if you select areas sufficiently large. For the purpose of which I am speaking now I am selecting the whole area of Scotland, which is homogeneous, and which the Scottish municipalities, through their local committees, are willing to deal with, so that we should galvanise into active continued interest all that side of Scottish life which they represent. I do hope very much that my right hon. Friend will not lose sight of this. The figures which he has given us to-night are extremely interesting. I hope that he will not be, led away with the idea that they are anything like complete figures. My right hon. Friend did not suggest that they were by any means. He will agree with me when I say that we shall all be very glad—indeed, very grateful—if those represent 50 per cent. of the final figures.
There is another reason why we should be extremely anxious to get a great deal more money. I have seen, as my right hon. Friend knows, a great many of those agencies. I was very glad that he went out of his way to congratulate Mr. Pearson on his very excellent work among the blind soldiers. I wish that everyone in London could have a look round that institution and see those men at their work, and find out the feelings that they have with regard to their own calamity. It would cheer everybody up to meet those men, and to find from them how they can suffer the most severe calamity in life and yet maintain the fine spirit of which those men give evidence every day. And I think that Mr. Pearson deserves very well of the great British public for the magnificent work which he is doing among those blind men. I will refrain from further criticism of the details, because we shall have them on again. But I am very keen about this national point, as to whether my right hon. Friend can see his way to meet the feeling which exists not only in Scotland but in Wales, and I hope in Ire- land. Ireland usually gets those things without asking, and therefore Scotland and Wales have to ask for them. But I believe that the right hon. Gentleman will be doing the Statutory Committee and himself a great deal of good if he meets one of the real urgent problems in Scotland and in Wales.
There is only one other point I want to mention, and it is in connection with the Vice-Chairman of the Committee. I have noticed with some concern—I am not putting this point, as my right hon. Friend will understand, with any offence—that Mr. Cyril Jackson, the Vice-Chairman of this Committee, the only official, mark you, upon whom this Committee at the present moment depends for getting to work, has been appointed a member of the Central Tribunal of Appeal for cases under the Military Service Act. Did my right hon. Friend know that, or was it with his sanction and approval? Surely this Committee, of which we had the prospect in November, 1914, which has not got to work in March, 1916, and which my right hon. Friend tells us will not be able to deal with the question of separation allowances until the 1st of July, 1916, a Committee which has not found its own offices, and which is meeting with any amount of discomfort at the present moment in getting through its work of considering these model schemes which have been brought in—surely, I say, this Committee should now be getting to work, and it seems to me really foolish that the Vice-Chairman, who is the only official with continuous knowledge of all that is being done, should be taken away from this most important work and put on the Central Tribunal of Appeal to serve there.
The Vice-Chairman of this Committee has been on the tribunal for the last three or four months, to my knowledge. It is only within the last few days that the Central Tribunal has been constituted as a Central Tribunal of Appeal, with two members added.
That strengthens my argument, and when I saw the Vice-Chairman's name in the "Times" newspaper I said to myself, What is the Government up to now? Here is a man who is trying to get a big scheme into operation so that widows and children shall get something as soon as possible, and he is no sooner appointed to the Committee than he is taken off for the purpose of the Central Appeal Tribunal. If the information which we have is right, there are some 20,000 or 30,000 appeals, at any rate a very large number, which are likely to come before the Tribunal. Is the Vice-Chairman's time to be occupied with that work? It should not be. The time of the Vice-Chairman of this Committee should be entirely devoted to raising a monument to himself and my right hon. Friend on the Front Bench by their energy and activity in getting this Committee to work. I hope that my right hon. Friend will find a way out of this difficulty, and that he will get someone else appointed to the Tribunal, so that Mr. Cyril Jackson may be enabled to make this Committee at once energetic and effective.
I should really like to re-echo the words expressed by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) with regard to the work of this Committee and the appointment of its Vice-Chairman to the new Tribunal. I read with surprise in the newspaper that the Vice-Chairman of the Committee, who is an official getting £1,750 a year, was a member of the Statutory Committee and a member of several other committees.
I am in exactly the same position; it is no new appointment; I have been on the Central Tribunal for three or four months.
I say that it is the hon. Gentleman's duty, if he is to carry out the work of the Statutory Committee, to devote his energies to that particular work. The hon. Member for the Blackfriars Division gave expression to the need for a more energetic prosecution of the work in regard to certain things, but he really does not seem to me to know what is really within the power of the Statutory Committee, of which he is a prominent member. Take the work in regard to the disabled soldier, whose cause has been so eloquently pleaded. I submit that the Statutory Committee should for the last three months past have been getting these local committees into operation, and the local committees would have had the power of appointing employers and workmen on their bodies, and could have devoted their attention in their own localities to the provision of schemes.
That is being done.
Excuse me. it is not being done. If the hon. Member knew that this power was in their hands, what was the use of raising the question here? I have myself some knowledge of local government work, and I know some of the local authorities; they have written to me asking how it is that these schemes and the appointment of these local committees have not been foreshadowed. I was very much surprised to learn from the Parliamentary Secretary that the schemes went out on 9th February. I know now that some of these local authorities are beginning to make their appointments. They have only had the suggested schemes placed before them within the last few weeks, and as soon as they obtain the model scheme they will set to work at once to appoint the committees. We know that, so far as the county council is concerned, if they were requested they would hold a special meeting to consider these schemes and appoint the local committees, as they did in regard to the Education Act. I submit that it is most important that these schemes should be foreshadowed at once and that the work should be proceeded with.
Therefore I was really astounded when a statutory body like this postponed the bringing of this Act into operation. There will be nothing done, so far as I can see, until the 1st July, when you propose to take the money for the first time, which is really the operation of the Act. I do not know what will be the operation of the Statutory Committee, but I dare say they will get a sub-committee appointed to consider when full consent to these schemes is asked for. I should have thought that the Statutory Committee would be sitting continuously from day to day and that the vice-chairman especially would be devoting his attention to the sanctioning of those schemes so as to allow each council to begin its preliminary work when the scheme was approved of, and be prepared for the distribution of the money. The date of the Act is 10th November, and it has taken almost six months to bring it into operation, longer almost than bringing the Education Act into operation. There are thousands of cases waiting decision, and all over the country people are anxious to know what is to become of their applications. When the local committees are set up people are empowered to go before them and make their claims. That is a very important fact, and those committees ought to be put into operation without delay, so as to gather information with regard to the claims and be in a position to advise the Statutory Committee. It seems to me that there is very serious delay in setting up those local committees. I am not going to argue about the £1,000,000, because I believe once you get this scheme set in motion the Government will have to find the money hereafter, and whether it is £1,000,000 or £5,000,000 the responsibility for financing the scheme will be upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I was very much surprised to hear the remarks of the hon. Member (Mr. Hogge) about Scotland and its claims, because the whole of the Act would have to be reconstructed if his suggestions were carried out. The Act is for the United Kingdom, and there are no separate Statutory Committees to be set up in Scotland or Wales. There are local committees for those countries. I should be very much surprised to learn, when this money is handed over to the Statutory Committee, that there is anybody in Scotland or in Wales prepared to refuse to accept a portion of it.
We will take it.
I read that the claim in Wales is that the money should not be handed over to the county or borough councils, but to some committee organised for charitable purposes. We have had enough of charity in this business, and that suggestion is absolutely illegal and outside the scope of the Act, under whose provisions the money must be handed over to the borough councils and county councils. There is a provision in the Act of last year, Section 2, Sub-section (10), which states that any expenses of the local committee, except so far as they may be paid by the Statutory Committee, shall be paid out of funds at the disposal of the local committee. There is the further provision in Section 4, paragraph ( g ), that they can solicit and receive public subscriptions towards any of the purposes of the Act. If any money is raised in Scotland or in Wales, then under that Sub-section I expect they will have the power to spend it in the local committee. The change which is proposed in this Bill with respect to the expenses, and which puts them upon the local authority, is a very important change. I am not going to argue the matter now, because I am partly convinced by the arguments which the right hon. Gentleman set forth. I believe the expenses should not be a very heavy charge upon the local rates. I think that every council and every county council will place their buildings at the disposal of the local committee. I admit there is a danger if local committees could draw upon the Statutory Committee towards expenses that the expenses might become very heavy in some parts. I think the local committees may from patriotic motives, perhaps, undertake to find a portion of those expenses. In Clause 2, where expenses are to be charged to any of the local rates, there is always set out in full the fund which is to be charged. There is nothing here to say which fund, and therefore I would suggest that the charge should be placed upon the borough in the towns and upon the rate in the comity—that is, the borough fund or the district fund. I think that this Grant is a very good beginning, and we all, I am sure, appreciate the changes which the right hon. Gentleman has suggested in his speech with regard to the pensions. We can only hope that the spirit in which this measure has been received in this House will be displayed right through all our local authorities, and when the whole scheme comes into operation I believe we shall see better times for those widows and dependants who have suffered through the loss of their husbands during the War. I give my hearty support to the Bill.
As a member of the Statutory Committee there are some points with which I desire to deal. The hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) first of all raised an old question which has been frequently discussed, namely, that of Home Rule for Scotland in this and other things. He will not expect me now to enter upon that very tangled and difficult question. There is administrative power given to Scotland through the local committees which are to be appointed for that very purpose. I speak for all my colleagues on the Statutory Committee when I say that the more we can get these committees to assume an initiative and important part in the administration of the Act the happier we shall be. I will not enter upon the discussion of the personal element referred to by the hon. Member, beyond saying that if we follow his suggestion as to popular election we will form a difficult and dangerous precedent for the future. I can only say that I do not wish for Home Rule in this matter expressed further than that full power should be given to the local authorities to act according to local needs and wishes. I would like to controvert the suggestion of the hon. Member that if this form of Home Rule is not given my country will shut up its pocket and refuse to allow any of its funds to go to this purpose. I do not believe that that will be the case. I have far too much confidence in the generosity of my countrymen, in their sense of the solidarity of the nation, and in their recognition of the necessity for the richer localities to come to the help of the poorer, to think that they will follow any such selfish and provincial view as that set forth by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh.
9.0 P.M.
The hon. Member went further and said how much better it would be if we had a local body for Scotland, as we could then co-opt important people and would not have to trust to the useless and impossible people nominated from here. Is the hon. Member aware that in the Disablement Sub-Committee many of us stood aside in order that new Members should be co-opted to represent different parts of the country? I myself purposely stood aside from being nominated on that Committee in order that there might be co-opted some person who I thought would represent a certain interest in Scotland, and in whom I recognise a very useful member of such a Committee. The hon. Member opposite dealt with the question of the Vice-Chairman. I know nothing about the appointment of the Vice-Chairman of a certain Committee. I only know that we have never missed the Vice-Chairman at the Statutory Committee at any of the Committee or Sub-Committee meetings at which I have been present, and those meetings average about three every week, and last for two, three, or four hours. On no occasion have we ever felt that our Vice-Chairman had his mind on anything but the work before us, nor has he ever absented himself on account of other work. It would be very convenient no doubt if, as the hon. Member suggested, we could have but one thing to do at the present time, but I do not think that many Members who are ready to do all the unpaid work they possibly can, will find themselves able to restrict their labours to one single Committee. I was surprised that the hon. Member for Stockton (Mr. J. Samuel) pronounced so definitely upon the work of a Committee of which he is not a member, and of which naturally he knows nothing except what he has been told. If he had listened to the speech of the Parliamentary Secre- tary to the Local Government Board he would have heard a refutation of everything he said.
I listened to every word.
Then the hon. Member must have listened with very small attention. He said that we had delayed the nomination of these local committees.
Not the nomination. I said that the model scheme was delayed.
The Parliamentary Secretary stated that the model scheme was not delayed, that it has been sent out, and that already out of 250 local bodies fifty have been either almost or finally constructed. Does the hon. Member think that when we send out to local bodies they are able to carry out all our behests at once, that they take no time for deliberation, that by return of post they can tell us whom they have appointed and that they are ready to begin? Does he think that that is the way central and local bodies can possibly hope to act? We have got our model scheme; we have sat day after day revising these model schemes at great length; we have sent them out and got at least one-third of the bodies already appointed, although these bodies have not to enter upon their duties until June. Is not that fairly expeditious work? It is, at all events, as expeditious as the public convenience requires. The hon. Member says, "Why do you not have someone sitting there to approve of the schemes when they come up?" Is that the democratic or popular view of the administration that the hon. Member takes—that the Vice-Chairman, whom he blames for having other work, is to sit there constantly and, without consulting any Sub-Committee or the Statutory Committee, is at once off his own bat to approve the schemes submitted to him? That may be the democratic view of the hon. Member; it is not a view which approves itself to any single member of the Statutory Committee.
I did not say that.
The hon. Member for Stockton does not seem to understand that a rhetorical question is answered by the Member who puts it, and does not call for a reply from another hon. Member.
I was only correcting the hon. Member as to what I said. I think that that will be in order. What I said was that I thought that the Deputy-Chairman or the Vice-Chairman ought to be in his office each day, and that there ought to be a Sub-Committee there to approve of these schemes.
Yes, the Deputy-Chairman, I think it is hardly necessary to say, is at the office every day, and all days. But does the hon. Gentleman suppose that we, the honorary members of the Statutory Committee, are to sit there constantly? Is the Sub-Committee sufficient to approve of these schemes, to confirm all these local schemes of local bodies? They are of vital importance to the whole working of the Act. Indeed we have felt it so important, as my right hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Hayes Fisher) will, I am sure, confirm, that, although these are considered by the Sub-Committee, we passed a resolution that every decision of the Sub-Committee should be subject to ratification by the whole Committee. We felt the necessity of that, and we have done it. In order, however, that the work should be done as rapidly as possible we have frequent meetings of the Sub-Committee and also regular meetings of the whole of the Statutory Committee. I have sat on several Commissions and have done a good deal of local and centralised work, but I have never seen a Statutory Committee that proceeded with its work more promptly, or a Committee that, with greater difficulties to fight, or in spite of the enormous development of its work, got through it so rapidly or kept so immediately in touch with the localities and which so far has done its very difficult and delicate work with such perfect success. We have had no real serious difficulties. That, I think, will be confirmed by my right hon. Friend opposite.
As to the topics raised by several other speakers, I desire only to say a word or two about these larger questions. First of all, as to the amount of money that this Bill proposes to place at our disposal. I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blackfriars, and I think my right hon. Friend opposite will agree with me, that this million of money which has been voted to us is totally insufficient for the ultimate purposes of this Bill. I look upon it as little more than a token Vote. It is utterly impossible to suppose that we, in view of the great work that is before us, a work of supreme importance, a work in which the honour of this country is wrapped up, and one in which the gratitude we owe to those men who have suffered for us has to be shown, should be stinted in any way. I am sure that that is not the wish of any Member on this side of the House, any more than it is the wish of any Member on the other side of the House. There is a unanimous feeling that the work must be done thoroughly. We cannot now form—let us remember—an idea or anything like a calculation of what the needs will be. The only way is to allow something like a round figure which will meet our needs for the present. I plainly tell my right hon. Friend and the Chancellor of the Exchequer that, gladly as I accept this money, and fully as I hope it will allow us to go on for some time doing our work, I do not accept it as anything like a final sum, or anything like a full discharge of the liabilities of this House and the country in respect of the work they have set us to do. There was another large point raised in the interesting speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blackfriars, and that was about the ultimate decision as to the limits of the rights and claims of anyone who is brought within the scope of this Bill, of anyone who has been disabled, or whose dependants, having lost their mainstay in life, through his services rendered to the country, must needs come before us. I agree, and I am sure most people will agree, with what the right hon. Gentleman said, that there must be a final Court of Appeal.
We place in the hands of the Army authorities and of the naval authorities certain sums to be administered according to official rules. Do not let us blame either the military or naval authorities because these rules are not expanded at any suggestion of generosity or liberality. These authorities must be accountable for a certain sum of money. As officials they are tied by rules, and they are accountable to all sorts of people, who may dispute their rules if they go beyond the line of those rules. They have to act under the authority of the Comptroller and Auditor-General, who will not, and cannot, if he wishes, condone or pass a payment on the ground of justice or generosity if it is not warranted and authorised by the letter of the rules which these officers are empowered to administer. You cannot look to these officers as the final Court of Appeal, or as any Court of Appeal, which brings in any element of equity or generosity. Lay down your rules, and let those who administer them act within reason to the best of their discretion. You may be quite sure—anyone who knows the inside of a public office knows—that the whole temptation of officials is to extend the rules so far as they can, and bring as much as they can within their purview. But they act under legal and other advice, and have to follow official precedents, and they know that they would be going wrong in a particular question if they went further than a certain line. It is very easy to bring charges against them, and to say that such-and-such a man has been treated in a very hard and niggardly way by reading the rules in a strict, verbal, and technical way. All that is very easy to show, but what I say is there must be authority to decide; there must be a final Court of Appeal, with power to take into consideration equitable, just, and generous considerations, even if they go beyond the letter of the law. That is what, I believe, the nation desires, and what the nation will be obliged to come to.
The Statutory Committee is an experiment, just as the Bill is an experiment. This Statutory Committee, enlarged, approved by this House, with powers expanded and adequate to its work, if it proves that it can take a large and generous view, will get the support of this House for that view; then a most important duty will be for the Committee to act as a Court of Appeal, and expand, by the rules of generosity and equity, the hard and fast rules that are binding upon the officials. That is what we have got to do, and that is what we have got to try to live up to. I have every confidence in the able men and ladies whom I see in the Committee around me, in the guidance of His Royal Highness the chairman, and of the vice-chairman, and I have every hope that the Committee will do well. It has a great work before it. I think it will rise to that work. Its work will be to act as a great Court of Appeal for the nation, with a due sense of responsibility; with economy, at the same time with a due sense of responsibility of what is owing to the nation. It should also act generously, and with as much benevolent intention as the nation would desire in its treatment of those men to whom the nation owes so much.
I was very glad to hear from the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down that the Statutory Committee has been acting with such ability and assiduity. I was rather under the impression—I may be wrong—that there had been considerable delay in coming to conclusions and in actually getting to work. I can only express the hope that they will soon be in a position actually to commence operations, because I know there are thousands of persons, widows and others, who have really been suffering because of the unreasonable amount of delay which has taken place in carrying through the original Act, to begin with, and also, as I think, in the development of this scheme, and the actual commencement of the spending of money. I feel, with those hon. Members who have already spoken, and I think we all agree, that the proposed sum of £1,000,000 will turn out to be quite inadequate, and it is, indeed, I think, rather misleading the country to suggest such a sum as that as being sufficient. But it is perfectly clear that if, as I understand from the right hon. Gentleman who is conducting this measure, the amount of money that will be required, even at the commencement of supplementing separation allowances, is to be at the rate of £80,000 a month, that itself would would make a very considerable hole in this £1,000,000 during the present year, if the War goes on till the end of this year.
There is one point which has developed in this discussion, and that is the new proposal to put some charges of administration on the rates. When this matter was discussed last year, it was clearly understood that the position was going to be one in which either private benevolence or the State would take the whole of the expenditure upon it, and I cannot help thinking it is a mistake to have brought in the local authorities and put any portion of expenditure upon the rates. I quite understand from my right hon. Friend that this is merely an optional payment, but I think that in itself is rather objectionable, because it seems to me that we shall have a rather chaotic state of affairs as between one local authority and another. If the Central Statutory Committee must make good, as of course it will have to make good, any expenditure that cannot be met otherwise, then there will be a great inducement to the local authorities not to come in. I should have thought it would have been necessary to have adhered to the original idea, and left the whole of this question of expenditure in the hands of the Statutory Committee. The local authorities, of course, if they pay for any portion of the expenditure, will require to have some kind of influence to a certain extent in directing the way in which this money is to be spent, and that, I think, in itself will bring about complication of administration between the local authorities and the district committees, which are responsible to the Statutory Committee and not to the local authorities, which I cannot help thinking will not conduce either to the rapid commencement of the work or to successful working. As I say, I should have thought it would have been wiser to have left to the Statutory Committee the duty of seeing that all the local committees were properly staffed and properly supplied with whatever was necessary; but we must all welcome the fact that at last the money is available, and that the new Statutory Committee is in a position to commence its work. It is none too early, and there is an immense amount of work before it, which, I hope and believe, will be successfully accomplished.
The suggestion has already been made both from Scotland and from Wales that the organisation under this Bill should be a national one. The hon. Member for Stockton (Mr. J. Samuel) seemed to have overlooked the fact that the Pensions Act itself has anticipated such an organisation, because it is provided that: committees themselves. The same question arises as to whether, if the joint committee for Wales or Scotland is formed, the money collected by that joint committee can be retained by them and applied for the purposes of the Act. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will deal with these points when he replies.
While we welcome the £1,000,000 which is to be voted by this Bill, I agree with those who think the sum is utterly inadequate to meet the calls that will be made upon it. There is, for instance, the question of a man broken down in health. It is quite true he will receive four-fifths of the pension, as I understood from an answer last week, but, if broken down in health, it is obvious that he would not be able to maintain himself on four-fifths of the pension. But there is another provision in the Act which seems to me to demand a very large sum indeed from the committees, and that is the provision to help officers and men to recover their health, to train them and secure employment for them. I think it was the right hon. Member for Blackfriars (Mr. Barnes) who has already referred to a Report of the Committee dealing with the settlement of men upon the land, and I am not quite sure whether he was not of opinion that the proposal to allot £2,000,000 for that purpose was a fairly adequate proposal. All I can say is that—and I have taken some interest in the land and sat on two or three committees in connection with this—that if the proposal be to acquire the land, then a sum of £2,000,000 will go a very small way to secure the object in view. I think that the local committees will have to apply part of the funds voted by the present Bill to assist officers and men to regain their health, train them and secure them employment. All I can suggest is that, even for that purpose alone, the sum of £1,000,000, even £1,000,000 a year, would be totally inadequate. I understand that from Wales alone there is in the Army at the present moment over 200,000 men and, taking the share that would be allotted to Wales out of this £1,000,000, I think it would work out at something like 5s. per head. I know, under the Pensions Act, there is to be an appeal to local benevolence, and whilst I have no doubt that, if National Committees are formed, the appeal is very much more likely to be stronger than if made by local committees, still I think it is improper that this House should throw upon local benevolence the making of adequate provision for those who suffer by the War. After all, we ought to realise that whilst the calls upon this fund will be permanent, the sources of charity may dry up, more particularly if depression in trade follows. I thank the right hon. Gentleman and the Government for introducing this Bill for providing £1,000,000, and I hope we shall not appeal in vain for a larger sum.
By leave of the House, I will answer a few of the questions which have been addressed to me. With regard to the question of Home Rule in this matter for Scotland, Ireland, and Wales, the Statutory Committee have come to no conclusion yet on a huge matter of policy of that kind, but they must follow the Act of Parliament, which enjoins that in every county and county borough there shall be set up a local committee. The Act of Parliament goes on to say that if that has been done the various county committees or local committees of any kind may combine for certain purposes, and if I am asked to make a forecast I should think that after the local committees have been set up, as they must be in every county and county borough and large urban districts of more than 50,000 population, in all probability many of these counties will combine. Perhaps the Welsh counties may combine. As regards Scotland, I am not so certain that the voice of Edinburgh is always the voice of Glasgow, and I should like to hear some further arguments on that point. I think the counties will combine for certain purposes, and certainly for that which is the largest purpose, namely, providing for the care and training and employment of the disabled. I am quite aware of the spirit of patriotism which has shown itself in Wales, and I know that there has been a very important and representative meeting, at which it has been declared that whatever the State does in Wales they mean to do something on their own. I believe the kind of patriotism which has been shown in Wales will be emulated in other parts of the United Kingdom, and when those committees have been created, doubtless means will be found of working in cooperation with the Statutory Committee. The Statutory Committee may do one portion of the work and the local committees another. When the State has done all that it is willing to do, and the Statutory Committee has also done all that it can, there will still be many cases left of real hardship in regard to which it will be necessary for the locality to assist. I make no prophecy on that point as to what will be the ultimate outcome as regards Scotland and Ireland and Wales in, connection with the working of the Act.
Assuming a joint committee is formed under the Naval and Military War Pensions Act, will there be power to pay to that committee part of this money under this Bill or will this Bill need to be amended?
I think the hon. Member will see that you cannot divide this money on any geographical basis, or the basis of population, or according to areas. You will have to set up conditions of eligibility for these supplementary pensions. You will have to find out how many widows, dependants, and others require supplementary pensions; you will have to ascertain the number of your disabled and the money will flow very unevenly into different parts of the Kingdom, and it will flow not according to the area or size of the population, but according to the number of unfortunate victims of this War who, up to that time, have not received that amount from the State which the local committee may think they ought to receive. That is where the power of the locality will come in. Having settled the general conditions of benefit, then the local committees will be asked to investigate all the circumstances of each particular case, and make their recommendation, which must be within the generous standard and scale laid down for all parts of the United Kingdom alike If a recommendation comes from a strong representative committee, it is not likely that the Statutory Committee will give the go-by to such recommendation. The Statutory Committee will probably say that that is the extra supplemental pension which ought to be given, and they will allow it.
If there is a local fund it will be a matter of arrangement as to how much each shall contribute for some extra hardship. I think that is the way in which it will work, but I must point out that we are only in the experimental stage. We have this first £1,000,000, and it must be regarded as experimental. We have made a good beginning notwithstanding the strictures which have been passed upon us by the hon. Member for Stockton (Mr. J. Samuel). Although the hon. Member is an authority on local government, I do not think he really understands that if you have to frame a model scheme it may not altogether be approved of by the local authority, and as the local authority may not meet very often there must inevitably be delay in the exchange of opinions between the Statutory Committee and the various local bodies. When the hon. Member says how easy it would be for the vice-chairman to settle these matters with the help of a sub-committee, I am afraid that he has not devoted as many hours as I have on such committees, particularly in connection with the Welsh scheme, where questions have to be decided as to how much representation should be allotted to labour and how much to women and other societies who claim representation. All these things have to be very carefully discussed, and no great body like the Statutory Committee will allow those things to be settled by a small sub-committee, and when we are setting up machinery which I hope will be something of a permanent value, we must be careful to consult the various interests which, under the Act, ought to be represented on that body. I do not think I need say anything more at this stage. I think we have made a good beginning, and the whole House has proved that it has entered into the matter with the spirit and determination to carry out the promises and pledges we have made to the letter, and we intend to do everything we can to promote the welfare of these people.
Question put, and agreed to.
Naval and Military War Pensions, Etc. (Expenses) Bill
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 1.—(Grant of £1,000,000 to Statutory Committee.)
(1) Towards meeting the expenses of the Statutory Committee constituted under the Naval and Military War Pensions, etc., Act, 1915 (in this Act referred to as the principle Act), there shall be charged on and issued out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom or the growing produce thereof in the year ending the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and sixteen, the sum of one million pounds.
(2) The said sum of one million pounds shall form part of the funds at the disposal of the Statutory Committee, and, so far as not immediately required, may be invested by the Committee in such manner as the Treasury direct.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill
CLAUSE 2.—(Power to make Payments out of Rates in Aid of Expenses of Local and District Committees.)
(1) The council of any county or borough or urban district, for whose area a local committee has been established under the principal Act, may make such payments as they think fit towards the administrative expenses of any such local committee-and of any district committee appointed under that Act in their area.
(2) The council of any borough (including any metropolitan borough and the City of London) or urban or rural district which is, in pursuance of any scheme made under Section two of the principal Act, a separate district, for which a separate district committee is appointed, may make such payments as they think fit towards the administrative expenses of the district committee.
(3) Any payments authorised by this Section may be made out of any fund or rate out of which the expenses of the council making the payments are payable, and may be made subject to such conditions (if any) as to the application of those-payments as the council making the payments think fit to impose.
I beg to move, in. Sub-section (2), after the word "district" ["a separate district"], to insert the words "or is wholly or partly included in a separate district."
The object of this Amendment is to empower the local council to contribute to the administrative expenses of the district committee in the two instances which are not covered by Clause 3. The first case would be that in which the county is divided not into local government areas, but into petty sessional divisions, and the second case is one in which two or more urban districts are combined together under this Act to form a separate district for the purposes of the Act.
Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
I was not here when the right hon. Gentleman replied, and I should like to ask if he has met the point which I suggested as to whether the expenses to be raised by the local authorities should be charged upon the borough fund or upon the district fund. Unless some guide is given, it is quite impossible for them to know upon what fund they can charge the expenses. There is, I believe, some such guide given in every Act, and I think we might insert it here.
This question has been very carefully considered by some of the leading authorities on rating, and they have agreed that this Clause really does carry out what the general body of county councils would desire:
"Any payments authorised by this Section may be made out of any fund or rate out of which the expenses of the council making the payments are payable, and may be made subject to such conditions (if any) as to the application of those payments as the council making the payments think fit to impose."
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Bill reported; as amended, considered; read the Third time, and passed.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Trade Relations With Germany
Allies' Conference in Paris
Whereupon Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 22nd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
I gave notice at Question Time to-day that I should take this opportunity of addressing the House in reply to a speech made yesterday by the hon. Member for Brentford (Mr. Joynson-Hicks), in which he made accusations against naval officers stationed on the South Coast. Unfortunately, the hon. Member cannot be in his place this evening, so I shall have to take another opportunity, I hope on Tuesday next, of replying to that speech.
Before the House adjourns I should like to make a brief and a very earnest appeal to the Government on a matter of urgent public importance. I refer to the decision of the Government with regard to the powers and authority with which the British delegates to the Paris Conference shortly to be held are to be equipped. As I understand the position of the Government at present in relation to the delegates attending that important Conference, it is that they are to go as observers and that they are to have no power whatever to co-operate in any decision that may be arrived at. They are to go entirely without any plan, and they are to report to the Government and to the House what the proceedings are at the Conference to which they have been invited. I think it is a matter for a word of comment that it has been left to one of our Allies to take the initiative in regard to an important matter of this kind. One would have thought that the greatest commercial nation in the world would have been the first to consider what our policy ought to be in regard to trade after the War, and I think we are indebted to our Allies for taking a step which this country ought to have taken many months ago.
I ask that our delegates shall not go to Paris without any authority. I ask that they shall be fortified by the opinion of the Government, and, if necessary, by the authority of this House, to make a declaration as to what our intentions really are in regard to trading with Germany after peace has been declared. It seems to me that unless we are prepared to make a declaration of that kind now we are ignoring a great opportunity for striking a blow which cannot but have the effect of shortening the War. I ask that our delegates shall be able to say at the Paris Conference that never in future can our trade relations with Germany be what they were before the War. I ask them to say that when we condemned Louvain and the "Lusitania" it was honest sentiment, and was not to be obliterated by commercial profit. I ask that we shall make it clear beyond all doubt that, so far as we are concerned, our whole commercial relations with Germany are to be changed after the War. I ask that not from an economic point of view; I ask it as a war measure in order to deal a vital blow at our enemies. I say that we ought to do it as a war measure of national defence, and in order to shorten the War.
What is the position at the present time in regard to the financing of Germany to carry on the War? It is no secret. Anyone who reads the German papers will see a slight change in regard to it, but the expression of opinion is there day by day that after the War the same relations practically will continue with this country as before. A subdued tone in regard to that is very noticeable. Day by day since the beginning of the War huge stocks have been piled up by German manufacturers, and as the result of those huge stores they are able to finance themselves, both in regard to the War and for their own private financial advantage. I say that we ought to make it clear that the people who are lending money on the huge stocks that have been and are being collected in Germany are taking a great risk, and a risk which is entirely unjustified. What is happening? Until quite recently—it is no secret—German bills have been financed in neutral countries; they are being financed in neutral countries now, and I believe in at least one allied country, and even in the City of London I am safe in saying that German bills were being discounted for the ultimate benefit of Germany. That is a thing which would not be possible if we were to make it clear that the stocks made in Germany during the War were not to be dumped down in Great Britain after the War is over. The method in which Germany is financing itself is this: In Holland and New York contracts are being made between those countries in regard to goods to be delivered after the War. If an undertaking is given to a firm in New York by a Dutchman acting on behalf of a German firm that he is willing to carry out the delivery of goods after the War, that is good enough for the German banks, and they are perfectly willing to advance money on a letter of acceptance of that kind. That is helping Germany. Not only that, but the German banks are lending money to the traders on the stocks which they have made in the belief that those stocks are going ultimately to be dumped clown in this country. I say we ought to make it clear, once and for all, that for a certain time, at all events, after peace is declared the expectations of these people who are financing Germany at the present moment will not be realised.
We want a declaration of strong policy by our delegates on behalf of this country. If we make such a declaration it will have an immediate effect in Germany. I bell eve it would almost smash the German financial structure. Why do we not make such a declaration? What is the difficulty in the way? We cannot deal with economic facts at the present moment. We must consider what is best in order to bring the War to a speedy conclusion, and we must do our best to injure our enemy as much as possible. That is the first power I would like our delegates to have when they go to this conference. But I ask for something more. I ask that they shall have power to initiate and, if necessary, to propose that we shall identify ourselves with all our Allies in order to fight German trade in the South American States. Undoubtedly that is the future outlook as far as Germany is concerned for trade. We have many instances showing that. We have the interesting fact that almost every German interned here at the present moment is learing Spanish, and if you ask them why they are so keen on Spanish they will tell you that they are going to-South America after the War. My right hon. Friend knows something about German competition in South America. He and I had a pleasurable trip, in the course of which we visited almost every South American State. What did we find? That Germany was beating this country through one cause alone, and that was because she v was studying the wants and desires of manufacturers in South America, while our own people take no initiative at all, but simply throw their catalogues at the manufacturers, refusing to make any modifications or alterations in order to meet local desires. What I say is, we ought to unite together with our Allies in order to make a real fight against German trade in South America, and, if necessary, we should go-the length of subsidising manufacturers in this country, and in that way wake them up.
I know that may be considered a very strong proposal. But we are living in a time of war, and we must take every step we can in order to make that War as short as possible. Therefore I say our representatives should go fully equipped on these points of policy, determined to carry them out, and I believe if we did that it would do a great deal to improve our military successes at the present moment. We have had recently some important expressions of opinion from the very distinguished Prime Minister of Australia, and I am sure we have read, them all with great interest. He is one of the live wires of our Empire, and I am sorry that the rules of this House are not the same as those in some of our Colonial Parliaments, so that we might have invited him to come here and address this assembly. It would have given a breath of fresh air, which would have done the House, and especially the Government, some good. If possible, Mr. Hughes ought to be one of our delegates at the Paris Conference.
No, no!
My hon. Friend objects.
Why not the Secretary for Scotland?
If my hon. Friend is anxious for information on that point, it is that in the first place Mr. Hughes represents Australia, and, secondly, Scotland has a splendid representative in my hon. Friend.
But I am not going there.
I think it is well worth the consideration of the Government whether they should not send Mr. Hughes. This is a serious, and not a jocular matter. The Government should consider whether he ought not to be invited to attend that Conference. He would not only represent Australia, but he would also represent Canada and all our other Colonies. At any rate, in him we would have a man of determination, of vigour, and of initiative. But, apart from that, I do ask the Government to make sure we are not going merely as listeners to this Conference. Our delegates ought to have definite plans, and not simply to take notes of the proceedings. To my mind, that would be absolutely humiliating to this great Empire, which represents, after all, the commerce of the world. I would impress on the Government that in this matter, late in the day though it is, they should do something bold in order to strike a blow against Germany at the present time. If no immediate action is taken, no immediate results will accrue, and when our delegates come back from the Conference there will be delays and all sorts of postponements. I say the War will not admit of that, and I plead, therefore, with the Government to reconsider their decision as to the powers to be given to our delegates, and to equip them to do something immediately, something tangible, in order to shorten the War and improve our military successes.
I think there is a very strong presumption against the consideration during the War of after-War problems. When I say consideration of them, I do not mean consideration by private individuals, but public consideration of them here in Parliament, and the making of a demand on the Government of this country, which is a Coalition Government, to take sides on controversial questions which will arise after the War. In the first place, it is a breach of the party truce. It is an attempt to force forward certain interests, in this case as regards tariffs on trade, which have been matters of acute controversy in this House and in this country for a long time. It is an attempt to push them forward to a certain conclusion favoured by one side in a time of War. In the second place, it is a piece of complete folly to attempt to say now, during the War, what it will be possible to do or what it will be desirable to do on a great question like this at the end of the War, when the conditions will be such as we cannot foresee, and will depend entirely upon what change may take place in the great country with which we are now at war and what form of government may exist in that country after the War. It may be an utterly different form from that which exists there now. In this particular case of trading with Germany after the War we cannot, as I say, prejudge it because we cannot know the conditions that will prevail. We are told that this is a War measure, and therefore not, strictly speaking, an after-War question, but that it is a measure for shortening the War. That is a very specious argument, but I think it is very remarkable that almost all those who are putting forward this as a war measure to shorten the War are people who put forward similar measures before the War began. We are told that Germany is borrowing very large sums on the huge stocks of goods which it has built up for exportation after the War, and that if a declaration of "No trade with Germany after the War" is now made Germany will no longer be able to borrow on these stocks as she has been doing.
I should like to know where is the evidence of the existence of these great stocks? In the first place, supposing they do exist, if we do not buy them after the War other people will. The United States is not going to refuse to trade with Germany; the South American States are not going to refuse to trade with Germany; and if our people continue the policy, of which the right hon. Gentleman has spoken, of throwing an English catalogue at the head of the manufacturers in the South American States, what is the good of us attempting by any tariff arrangement in this country to prevent Germany having the advantage of us by her greater intelligence and greater efficiency in these matters in South America? Holland is not going to stop trading with Germany; Scandinavia is not going to stop trading with Germany; Spain is not going to stop trading with Germany; and China is not going to stop trading with Germany. You are not going to prevent Germany getting rid of her stocks simply because Great Britain and the Allied countries decline to trade with Germany. Do those stocks really exist? That some manufacturers may have some stocks I do not doubt, but do they really exist on any vast scale? I entirely disbelieve it myself for the reason that I do not see how it is possible for Germany to have accumulated these stocks in wartime. We know that in this country every man and every woman is actively engaged either in providing for the country or in providing munitions of war. I have no doubt that the same thing is going on in Germany, and I, for one, shall totally disbelieve in the existence of these stocks on any vast or national scale until I have better evidence that they do really exist. If there is no evidence that a measure of this sort will shorten the War, I suggest that it would have this very great effect, that it would furiously embitter the feelings of the German people and make it very much less likely that that change in the Government of Germany, on which the hope of the peace of the world so largely depends, would come about.
The Board of Trade have admitted from the Treasury Bench the truth in regard to the stocks.
10.0 P.M.
I have said that I have no doubt there are certain stocks. If the Board of Trade have figures showing that they exist to any vast extent, I should like to see them. Anyhow, if there are large stocks, I still adhere to the opinion that nothing we can do in this country will prevent them being marketed. I adhere to the ideal which I have learned, and which I believe to be a worthy ideal, that is, we ought to make trade between nations, when they are at peace, as freé as possible. I do not look forward to continuing this War after the military operations are over as a covert and commercial war against the German people. I hope for such changes as will eventually enable the Engish people and the German people to live at peace and trade together in amity once again, for I attribute the guilt of what has been done not so much to the German people as a great democracy, but to a certain limited class and clique in that country. I have learned to believe in Free. Trade and to admire it not merely as a means of accumulating wealth. That is the smallest of its merits. I have learned to believe in it and admire it from the point of view from which Mr. Gladstone spoke when he said that the trading ships of the world are like great shuttles in the loom of time thrown from land to land and weaving the nations into one. I still intend to adhere to that ideal, though it may not be possible to revert to it immediately after the end of this War. We talk of trading with Germany, but we have really to think of trading with Germans. We do not trade with the German Government; we trade with the German people. Whether it will be possible to resume freedom of trade with them after the War is a thing we cannot possibly say now, because we cannot tell what the conditions will be at the end of the War. For my part, I retain the hope that it may be so sooner or later. I do not seek to prejudge the question of the possibility. I quite agree it might not be possible immediately or for several years to come, but eventually I hope it will be. While I do not ask that the question should be prejudged in favour of the ideals to which I hold, I for one do not enter a very strong protest against its being prejudged in the opposite sense. Therefore, I hold that the Government have done quite rightly in saying that they will go into this Conference to hear everything that any Ally of ours has to say, but will not go there to commit the country either to one side or the other on these great and difficult questions.
I want to make only one or two observations upon this matter because I know that a great many Members wish to speak. It is one of the advantages of speaking on the Motion for the Adjournment that it is the duty of each member of the House to make his remarks as brief as possible. I am not going into the controversial matters raised by my two hon. Friends opposite. There are two aspects of this question. First of all, is it a punishment or is it a policy? If it is a punishment, it must always be subject to one condition—that is, we must not punish Germany more than we punish ourselves. That is a perfectly clear economic and commercial axiom. [An HON. MEMBER: "You have put it the wrong way round!"] Of course, I mean that we must not punish ourselves more than we punish Germany. There are certain materials that are only to be obtained from Germany. It would be too ridiculous for us to deprive ourselves of those materials, at any rate in order to punish Germany.
Why cannot we make them ourselves?
You cannot do it.
There are earths and natural materials in the earth that we cannot produce. So much for the punishment. With regard to policy, if you are going to confer with the Allies in order to arrive at a joint policy to be accepted by all the Allies, I do not think it would be wise for the Government beforehand to declare publicly a hard and fast line as to what its views are. I have views of my own, which are much more in accord with those of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel) than with those of the last speaker. But I do say this, and this is my appeal to the right hon. Gentleman before he speaks—and it has always been my attitude towards the Government on all matters appertaining to the War—I do not want them to make a disclosure of their plans, but I want to know that they have a plan in their own minds. That is all I ask of them. It is an idle thing to go to Paris just because Paris is a pleasant place. [An HON. MEMBER: "No!"] I congratulate the hon. Member on his experience. At any rate, let us have an assurance to-night from the right hon. Gentleman on behalf of the Government, although he may be reluctant and reticent —he often is—to declare the views of the Government: let him assure us that our delegates are going to the Conference with instructions, clear instructions, from our Government to at any rate press some views.
The Prime Minister said "No."
I ask the right hon. Gentleman—I hope he will do so—to convey the views expressed now to the Prime Minister and ask him to consider them. If you are going to the Conference simply with a note book to take down what the Allies say, how can you take a useful part at all in any Conference? It would be a preposterous position for us to send delegates to Paris to take part in the Conference without any views of their own on behalf of the Government of this country, and it would be a ridiculous waste of time and money; therefore I ask the right hon. Gentleman to give us some assurance that the Conference will not be quite as futile as we have had some indication that it is going to be and that this question will be considered from the point of view of punishment and of policy, and that the Government is going into it not merely to gather information or to give information, but with a clearly denned policy and plan which they are going to submit to the attention of the Allies and as far as possible press upon their consideration. Unless we have some such object I do not see that the Conference can answer any useful purpose, and I hope that Great Britain will have a clearly defined policy to press upon the acceptance of the Allies in regard to post-war trade.
I desire to enter a strong protest against the levity of Under-Secretaries and the Vice-Chamberlain of the Household. On a matter of such great importance as this, for Under-Secretaries to amuse themselves with roars of laughter is hardly appropriate to the serious question which my right hon. Friend has brought before the House. If I thought my hon. Friend (Mr. A. Williams) represented the views of the country I should despair of my country, but I am quite clear that he and those who think with him in no way represent the views of the majority of the people of the country, but only of a very small fraction of them. What the Government is asked to do is a very simple thing. My right hon. Friend asks that in going to this Conference the Government should have a definite plan, and for that purpose he asks that you should send to represent the Dominions overseas one of the most distinguished statesmen who have visited the shores of this country for many years. He means, of course, Mr. Hughes, who, he truly said, has brought a new spirit of life into the political horizon of this country. It does not lie with any member of the Liberal party, which claims to be a progressive party, to cast sneers at Mr. Hughes, who during his career in Australia has risen to the highest position in the ranks of labour, to which he has for many years done such great services. But the only question the Government have to consider is whether you are going to give to the representatives whom you are going to send to Paris some indication of the policy that His Majesty's Government has considered, or whether you are going to send them merely to listen and to come back again. The Senate of the Australian Commonwealth, which comprises a majority of labour representatives, has already unanimously passed a resolution that no member of that Senate will at any time, now or hereafter, in his lifetime trade with any German or have any further trade relations with the German Empire. I suppose that will be a shocking resolution in the eyes of the hon. Member (Mr. Aneurin Williams). If Germany won this War, I leave it to my hon. Friend to imagine what would be his position and that of his constituents. He said in clear language that he would not do anything which would after the War damage the good relations which will be established with the German Empire.
I did not say a word about good relations with the German Empire. I spoke of good relations with the German people. I expressly distinguished between the German people and the present German Government.
If that is not the interpretation of what my hon. Friend said, I do not know what was the value of his remarks. He was certainly advocating conciliation with Germany and the establishment after the War of Free Trade relations, which appear to be his special pet and fetish. He talked of having been brought up in the principles of Free Trade, which were so dear to his heart, and all questions of party politics and controversial matters were to him matters of such supreme unimportance that he had entirely lost sight of them. He definitely used the words "party politics," and spoke of a pledge not to introduce matters of this kind of a controversial character. I do not understand that argument. I recommend him to go to his constituents and advocate to them a return to the Free Trade principles which he is advocating, and that we should trade with Germany after the War. I hope he will tell them that the people of Germany hailed with acclamation the massacre of women and children in the "Lusitania," and I hope he will not hesitate to tell them how these people have made war on women and children in this country, and if he "thinks we are just going to return to the status quo ante helium he must be living indeed in a fool's paradise. My interests all lie in Free Trade, but I will never, so long as I live, trade with Germany or have any trade connections with Germany in any shape or form, and I am sure that is the view of many other men, although our financial interests may be damaged by taking such a course. If after this horrible War, and all the suffering and misery that it has entailed, we are not to work in close touch with our Allies, if we are not to establish a better spirit among our people, the commercial part of the War will only be more horrible than the War itself. I implore the Government to act with our Allies. Let our representatives include this most distinguished statesman, representing the Dominions of this country. If the Government allows Mr. Hughes to go into this Conference, giving him their views at the same time, they will, I am sure, represent the feelings and the wishes of the majority of the people of this country, which the House of Commons for a long time has in no way expressed or represented.
I do not pretend for a moment that we want to prescribe for the Government the particular policy to be impressed upon our representatives at the Paris Conference, but I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Anglesey (Mr. Ellis Griffiths) that the delegation that goes to Paris should be fully instructed as to what the necessities of our position are. I am not going into the trade question. That is a matter for the Government to consider. I am only going to refer to the matter of the personnel. The personnel of the representation is extremely important. I do not object to Mr. Hughes, the Prime Minister of Australia, being sent there with our delegates as a representative of the Overseas Dominions, but what I say is this: that if you wish to to prevent jealousies and differences you must not put the representation of the Overseas Dominions altogether in the hands of one man, competent though he undoubtedly is. The Prime Minister of Canada, the Eight Hon. Sir Robert Borden, is coming to this country. I believe he is on his way now. I understand that the Prime Minister of New Zealand is on his way here, and so is the Prime Minister of Newfoundland. South Africa also would be entitled to like representation. Therefore, the difficulty of sending one man to represent the Overseas Dominions has to be faced.
Send two.
I would agree so far as I am concerned to send two. It would strengthen the situation, but there is more than that to be considered. We must send there a representative from the United Kingdom, and, much as I respect the President of the Board of Trade, I do not think—I hope he will understand that I am not speaking disrespectfully of him—that as head of the delegation he will fully represent the views of the people of this country, not for reason of any deficiency of ability in any respect whatever, but he has not the world reputation as some other men in the Government, and he would not be so strong a man in that position in the eyes of the Continent as some others we could think of. Besides that, it must be remembered that these are days of coalition. I do not say that disrespectfully. I honour every man's religious or political opinions whatever they may be. It must be remembered that the President of the Board of Trade has been a strong Free Trader all his days, and to send a strong Free Trader at the head of the delegation would prejudice us in the opinion of many people in this country and of many on the Continent. I would not have it the other way either. I would not send a strong Protectionist. But I would say this, as regards the representation of this country, that I would send two, one being a strong representative of Protection and the other a strong representative of Free Trade, in order that they might counterbalance each other and preserve the situation.
My view is that these two men should be given their instructions before they go, and that they should act upon those instructions and prepare the way for a better condition of international trading after the War is over. I would go a step further. If you are going to send representatives of the United Kingdom, one of those representatives should be the Minister who represents the British Dominions. The Secretary of State for the Overseas Dominions, or the Colonies as we call them, should be one of the delegation. If you hit upon the Secretary of State for the Colonies in the present circumstances you would fulfil a double condition. You would have on the delegation the official head of the Trade Department, and you would have the Minister who represents the Dominions—gentlemen who entertained views of an opposite character in the past so far as trade is concerned. I do not believe that any delegation that may be sent to Paris to this great Conference will satisfy the necessities of the public of this country or the requirements of the Overseas Dominions unless these conditions are fulfilled.
My right hon. Friend who raised this subject (Sir H. Dalziel) is, I think, about the last man in this House whom I would have expected to find in the same camp as the Union of Democratic Control, and yet that is the camp in which he has most distinctively placed himself to-night. What is the nature of the agitation of the Union of Democratic Control? The chief feature of it is that it desires to have now a discussion and formulation of the policy which is to be enforced at the settlement after the War. That is the chief character of its propaganda. That is exactly what my right hon. Friend desires to do now. We are to take it for granted that Germany is defeated in the way we desire most, and now we are to formulate the kind of trade policy and trade conditions which we and the Allies are going to impose on Germany. Why does he desire to do that? Because he thinks that if we disclose now the terrible conditions which we are going to impose on Germany, Germany will be so alarmed, so much stricken with terror at the knowledge of what is going to happen at the end of the War, that she will at once surrender, and say, "Do it now." Well, now, I like ginger, but I always thought that the particular brand of ginger which my right hon. Friend dealt in was the kind of ginger which insisted that the Government should more actively prosecute the War, should go on with the fighting and end the War by fighting, and not by threats of what we are going to do after the War—
Do it now.
In my view the only way to arrive at a satisfactory conclusion of the War is by fighting, and before we can get terms of peace that will be in the remotest degree satisfactory, before we can impose the terms of peace, we must improve our conditions a great deal in the realms of fighting. My other hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield (Sir A. Markham) made one remark which I should like to hear him repeat to his constituents. He challenged an hon. Friend of mine to go and repeat to his constituents some views which were very sound in the abstract; but will he go down to his constituents and tell them that after the fighting is over, after all these sacrifices are ended, he is still going to ask them to impose upon themselves financial sacrifices, not for the purpose of achieving victory, but merely for the purpose of indulging in some feeling of revenge?
I certainly shall, and I am certain that my Constituents will follow my advice. Wait and see.
At the end of the War the people of this country will have had so great financial sacrifices, and will have suffered so much, that they will not be willing to go on indulging in other financial sacrifices merely for the purpose of gratifying feelings of revenge. They will want to have some general broad policy for the good of this country in their minds, and not merely the gratification of some feeling of revenge.
I was very much surprised at the action of my light hon. Friend who called attention to this matter, because I was certainly under the impression that formerly he was the leader of democrats in this House, but now he is asking the Government to undertake to go to this Conference with a prejudged plan to confer with our Allies, and to come to an agreement with them practically without the knowledge and without the authority of this House. May I point out that the question of trade is really a very serious matter for this country, and when this War is over I think that we shall have a terrific struggle to retain our position so far as trade is concerned? Let me give one factor. I believe that Germany will be punished in this country. I do not believe that the people of this country will buy goods from Germany for very many years to come. But I agree with the right hon. Member for Anglesey (Mr. Griffith) that we must take care that we do not punish ourselves. Germany is in a tremendously strong position. Before the beginning of the War, if you take the iron and steel trade, she made more steel than the three Allied Powers together. How can you crush a nation like that? She made over 19,000,000 tons of steel against the 18,000,000 tons of the three Powers. I think the Minister of Munitions will tell you that Germany has converted that steel into munitions. Germany is now manufacturing plates for shipbuilding and making munitions from that steel. That is recognised. My hon. Friend here suggests that we should send Mr. Hughes, the Prime Minister of Australia, to this Congress. For what? I speak of Mr. Hughes with respect and with great deference, for he is a man of great ability, but I ask what does he know about the trade of this country? Why should any man who is not resident in this country pretend to tell us what our policy should be? I took out last weekend the figures for the River Tees with regard to the export of iron and steel. We export from the River Tees about 2,000,000 tons of iron and steel every year. The figures for 1911–12–13, the three years before the War, show that we exported 5,517,000 tons of iron and steel from that river. We depend entirely upon our exports, in addition to what we use internally. We have hundreds of thousands of men—miners, blast-furnace men, and others—depending on this trade. How much do we export to Australia, New Zealand, and Canada. We exported to them out of this tonnage 460,000 tons, or only 8 per cent., in the three years. I ask any man in this House, I ask the Minister of Munitions, I ask, say, a man engaged in the iron and coal trade, how anybody going to this Congress can, from a practical point of view adopt this policy, quite apart from Germany, of destroying 92 per cent. of our custom against the advantage of 8 per cent. of custom from our Colonies? It would be a most ruinous policy to our country. When this War is brought to a close, we must get back to the pre-war times in this sense that this country must find markets abroad for £120,000,000 of cotton goods. She must have a market for from £56,000,000 to £60,000,000 worth of iron and steel; she must find markets for £40,000,000 worth of machinery, and for from £40,000,000 to £45,000,000 worth of woollen goods. You can go right through the gamut of our trade, and you will find that we will have to export between £500,000,000 and £600,000,000 when the War is concluded if we are to maintain our industries. If we go into this Congress with our Ally Russia, the greatest Protectionist country in the world, and with few exports, and with our Ally France, and enter upon a policy such as that which has been indicated, it would be ruinous and disastrous to the country.
I very much regret that my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade is not in his place to answer in this Debate.
Did he get no notice? The right hon. Gentleman can answer that.
I think that it must have been to those who were in charge of the business of the House. I certainly cannot answer with the same amount of knowledge of this Conference as my right hon. Friend, and therefore I hope the House will bear that in mind. I am sure that they will also agree with one observation which fell from my right hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey (Mr. Ellis Griffith), namely, that whatever policy the Government decided upon in going into the Conference it would be exceedingly undesirable that it should be anticipated by statements in the House of Commons, and the very character of the Debate shows how undesirable it would be. It has developed very largely into a discussion on first principles, if I may say so, which seem to be now such a long time ago, because time counts by events rather than by hours. It would be very undesirable if instructions on a declaration of policy made on behalf of the Government in an International Conference should be made in the course of a Debate which has raised old political controversies. At the same time, I can assure the right hon. Gentleman and the House that the Government are giving most careful consideration to the instructions which are to be given to the delegate at that Conference. I think it would be a fatal mistake to send any delegate to that Conference with a sort of schedule of instructions—1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6—it would be perfectly fatal. This is obviously a case where you must trust your delegates to a very considerable extent. It is the first Conference of the kind, and not only should I be surprised if it were the last, but I should be disappointed.
If you are going to organise the trade of Europe for generations to come it has got to be done deliberately and carefully, because so much depends upon it. It is not really a question of tariffs. There are very much bigger questions, if I may say so. I am not in the least minimising the tariffs from any point of view. Our relations with Russia, for instance, where trade possibilities are almost infinite—that is really not a question of tariffs on one side or the other. It is a question which I had the pleasure and privilege of discussing when I was Chancellor of the Exchequer with the Finance Minister for Russia. We never approached the realm of tariffs and yet we could see a perfect vista of most profitable international commercial relations between Russia and ourselves. That is obviously a thing you cannot give instructions upon at a first Conference. I am perfectly certain it is a wise thing to hold the first Conference just to feel our way, just to see where we are. Our delegate has got a general idea of what the views of his colleagues are. I do not suppose the other delegates will have more. I should be surprised if they had. You must gradually feel your way. Let us hear what their ideas are, and let them hear what ours are. If we have got cut-and-dried proposals, that is not a Conference.
I should like to make one other observation. Our first object is the winning of the War. Everything must be subordinated to that. If we lose the War, this setting up of any fiscal system, whether Free Trade or Protection, is a wretched consolation. There are things which are bigger than trade, bigger than business, which go to the very roots of human life or human liberty—of everything that makes life worth living; of everything that constitutes the self-respect of men. Do not let us subordinate the winning of what stands for human liberty, honour, self-respect, and the civilisation of mankind for any trade. That is simply bringing the exchange into the Temple. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey (Mr. Ellis Griffith) that when you come to consider trade the first question is: What is the interest of our own country? I do not agree here with my hon. Friend behind me. He is a business man, but has he ever seen business succeed where business was mixed with revenge? Never! You ought to eliminate all considerations of revenge from business. I am sorry to say that they come into war, but to mix them up with business is a mistake. Let us consider what is best for the millions of people in the British Empire.
Let me add one final word. I do not think you can ever have the status quo ante bellum. I do not mean to say that you are to set up a system of tariffs, or that you are to have two rival commercial federations in Europe, which will simply be perpetuating war. That is not what I mean. What I mean is that there are industries which we have discovered to be essential for self-defence. Germany has very cunningly and craftily been building them up not with a view to trade, but with a view to war. We found ourselves almost done because we had not got certain industries in this country. We have built them up slowly, but we have built them up, and we have built them up successfully. There are several new businesses which are essential to war as well as to commerce which we have built up, and it will be a fatal blunder if we ever allow those industries to go down. That is a question neither of Protection nor of Free Trade. It is essentially a question of national existence. With regard to my friend Mr. Hughes, no man in this House has a greater regard for him than I have. I have an immense admiration for him. I presided over a shipping conference at which he was present, and I never met an astuter man of business when dealing with affairs. Whether he goes to the Conference or not is not a question we can discuss here. If he goes to the Conference I am certain he will discharge his duties with consummate ability. But that is a very delicate question. It has reference not merely to this country, but to the Colonies, and I do not think it will be in the interests of Mr. Hughes, of the Colonies, or of the Conference that we should discuss it publicly here.
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned at Twenty-two minutes before Eleven o'clock till Tuesday next, 28th March, pursuant to the Resolution of the House this day.
Petition Presented
The following Petition was presented and ordered to lie upon the Table:
Wednesday
Alcohol (Manufacture and Sale),— Petition from Dunning, for prohibition during the War.