House of Commons
Tuesday, March 28, 1916
Private Business
Private Bills [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—
Swansea Harbour [ Lords ].
Burnley Corporation [ Lords ].
Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time.
[North British Railway Bill (Substituted Bill),
To be read a second time To-morrow.
Shops Act, 1912
Copies presented of Orders made by the Councils of the undermentioned local authorities, and confirmed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department:—
County borough of Grimsby;
County borough of Salford;
Borough of West Ham
[by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Copy presented of Order made by the Council of the county of Durham, and confirmed, with Amendment, by the Secretary of State for the Home Department [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Board of Education
Copy presented of Regulations under which Special Grants in aid of certain Local Education Authorities in England and Wales will be paid in 1916–17 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Universities of Oxford and Cambridge Act, 1877 (Cambridge)
Copy presented of Statute made by the Governing Body of Trinity College, Cambridge, on 27th November, 1915, and sealed on 3rd December, 1915, repealing Section (i) of Statute XIII. of the College and substituting therefor an Amended Section (i) [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 46.]
Spring Assizes Act, 1879
Copies presented of two Orders in Council, dated 21st March, 1916, constituting Spring Assize Counties Nos. 2 and 3 for the Spring Assizes, 1916 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Foreign Jurisdiction Act, 1890
Copy presented of Order in Council, dated 21st March, 1916, entitled the Zanzibar Order in Council, 1916 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, and Merchant Shipping (Mercantile Marine Fund) Act, 1898
Copy presented of Order in Council, dated 21st March, 1916, sanctioning the appointment of a Surveyor of Shipping and Marine Engineer on the establishment of the Trinity House of Deptford Strond and abolishing the appointment of Marine Assistant Engineer thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Queen Anne's Bounty
Copy presented of Annual Report and Accounts of the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty for the year 1915 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
National Insurance Act
Copy presented of Provisional Regulations, dated 24th March, 1916, made by the National Health Insurance Joint Committee, with the consent of the Treasury, entitled the National Health Insurance (Injuries in War Compensation) Regulations, 1916 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table
Superannuation Act, 1887
Copy presented of Treasury Minute, dated 17th March, 1916, granting a Retired Allowance to Mr. Arthur Cook, Minor Staff Clerk, Patent Office, Board of Trade, under the Act [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Board of Agriculture and Fisheries
Copy presented of Annual Report of Proceedings under the Diseases of Animals Act, the Markets and Fairs (Weighing of Cattle) Acts, etc., for 1915 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Oral Answers to Questions
War
International Socialist Bureau
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the secretary of the International Socialist Bureau visited London lately; and whether such visit was in connection with any projects promoted by certain Socialist or Labour sections in allied, neutral, or enemy States for discussing terms of peace?
Yes, Sir, I understand that M. Huysmann has been in London, together with M. Vandervelde, and that the main object of their visit has been to discuss the position of Labour after the war. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
Is it not the case that these men are out of touch with those of their own party both in France and in Belgium, and that their visit was not authorised by them?
I do not know anything about that, but I think that if my hon. Friend will read the answer which I have given it will satisfy him.
Australian Troops (Egypt)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has called for and obtained, officially or otherwise, a report of the outrages committed by Australian troops in Egypt last year; and will he say what redress, if any, has been given?
No, Sir.
Egyptian Cotton
asked the price of Egyptian and of American cotton, respectively, before the War and now; under what law the British authorities are now denying to the Egyptians the benefit of the free sale of their cotton to neutral countries; and, cotton being their chief agricultural product, whether they will be allowed to share with neutral countries and with countries within the Empire in any increase of price due to the War or other general cause?
The market price on the Liverpool Exchange of fully good fair brown Egyptian cotton in the middle of July, 1914, was 9.10d. per lb., and the price on the 23rd March, 1916, was 11.13d. per lb. The price of middling American cotton was 7.35d. in July, 1914, and 7.78d. per lb. on the 23rd March, 1916. Egyptian exports are treated on precisely the same principles as those on which Great Britain treats her own exports. Such restrictions on the export of Egyptian cotton as exist have been imposed in the interests of the successful prosecution of the War by the appropriate Legislative machinery of the Egyptian Government. As the figures already given show, Egyptian cotton growers have benefited by the increase in the price of cotton.
Will the Noble Lord say what is it that he calls the appropriate Legislative power, seeing that the Assembly has not been convened since the War began?
I do not think that I could answer that question without notice, but the appropriate Legislative machinery is the Legislative machinery which has the authority to make laws.
Egyptian Press
asked whether it is by direction of the Foreign Office that no free newspaper is permitted to exist in Egypt now; whether it is by the same direction articles copied from the "Times" and other English newspapers into "El Ehram" are deleted partially or wholly by the Censor, and that paper forced to appear with large portions of its space blank; and, with their Press and their Legislative Assembly suppressed, how the rights, wants, and opinions of the Egyptian people are ascertained and secured?
The reply to the first two parts of the question is in the negative. As regards the third part, neither the Egyptian Legislative Assembly nor the Egyptian Press have been suppressed.
"Appam" (British Sailors)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is able to give any information with regard to the British sailors belonging to the crews or gun-crews of the "Appam"?
The crew of the Appam have returned to this country from America. The gunners were detained on the raider. The United States Ambassador was requested on the 18th instant to make inquiries as to the British subjects taken to Germany in the raider, but so far no reply has been received from His Excellency.
Will my Noble Friend ascertain the names of the individuals?
I will certainly endeavour to my very utmost to satisfy my hon. Friend.
Bulgaria (Separate Peace)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the agreement made between the Allied Governments on the 5th of September, 1914, precludes the negotiation of a separate peace between the Allies and any one of His Majesty's enemies; and whether he will give an assurance that Bulgaria will not be admitted to separate negotiations for peace, and will not in any event be permitted to acquire territory or other advantage at the expense of any people who has fought or may hereafter during the present War fight on the side of the Allies?
The Declaration of 5th September, 1914, ensures only that no peace will be made with any of our common enemies without a previous agreement having been come to between the parties to that Declaration. By that Declaration each of the Allies is precluded from making a separate peace and from demanding conditions of peace without the consent of each of the others. To make such a statement as my hon. Friend suggests in the second part of his question without discussion with our Allies would be in the opinion of the Government inconsistent with the spirit of the Declaration, and I do not think that at present any such discussion would be opportune.
Does my Noble Friend appreciate the fact that the intrigues which have been going on, aided and abetted by Brigadier-General Howell, are causing a great deal of disquietude, and does he not think that it would be well to allay that disquietude by making some such declaration as I have suggested?
I greatly deprecate such statements affecting persons who are not in a position to deal with insinuations made against them in this House. I know nothing of any intrigue, and still less of any in connection with General Howell.
British Civilian Prisoners (Austria)
asked what arrangements have been made for the regular exchange of British and Austrian civilian prisoners of war; and how many have already been returned to their respective countries?
Such Austrian civilian prisoners of war as are entitled to repatriation under the terms of agreements between His Majesty's Government and the Austro-Hungarian Government are repatriated monthly, as in the case of German civilian prisoners of war; owing, however, to the small number of British civilians interned in Austro-Hungary who are entitled to repatriation no necessity has arisen for their repatriation at regular intervals. The number of Austro-Hungarians hitherto repatriated from internment camps in the United Kingdom is 313. I regret that there is no record of the number of British subjects repatriated from Austria-Hungary, but I will see whether information on the subject can be obtained.
Prisoners' Camps (Germany)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when he proposes to circulate to Members of this House the Reports upon Prisoner Camps in Germany recently received from the American Embassy in Berlin, and which have already been communicated to the Press and partially published during the present month?
The Reports in question are communicated textually to the Press and are laid before Parliament from time to time. It is proposed to issue a further White Paper as soon as the pressure of work in the Printing Department permits, containing all the Reports received since the last series of Reports were circulated to Parliament. The forthcoming White Paper will include Reports which may be received up to 31st March.
Wireless Telegraphy (Argentine Government)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has information which goes to show that the German-owned steamer "Presidente Mitre," sailing under the Argentine flag, has from the beginning of the War used her wireless apparatus for communication with the enemy; and have any communications passed between his Department and the Argentine Government on this subject?
In the early months of the War His Majesty's Minister at Buenos Aires called the attention of the Argentine Government to the possible abuses of this nature. On 9th December, 1914, the Argentine Government issued regulations dealing with the matter. The regulations provided heavy penalties for infraction, and His Majesty's Government are not aware that any infractions have taken place. I shall, however, be grateful to the hon. Member if he can give me any recent information on this subject.
Can my Noble Friend say anything about Brazil?
I am afraid that I could not without notice.
Brauss, Mahn and Company
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information regarding the firm of Brauss, Mahn and Company, domiciled in Buenos Aires; whether they loaded the German steamer "Muansa" with coal, provisions, Chilian beans, etc., for Von Spee's squadron; whether they have continued to represent the German Imperial Government as commercial agents in Buenos Aires; whether he is aware that the British Government agents at Valparaiso recently consigned a shipment of Chilian beans to this firm in Beunos Aires by a steamer requisitioned by the Director of Transports; whether he is aware that Chilian beans are a substitute for fresh vegetables; and whether he has any information regarding the ultimate disposition of this consignment of Chilian beans by Brauss, Mahn and Company?
My information respecting the firm of Brauss, Mahn and Company, is to the effect that they have on various occasions acted as agents of the German Government at Buenos Aires, and were instrumental in obtaining supplies for. German cruisers. For this and other reasons Brauss, Mahn and Company have been put on the Statutory list of firms with whom all commercial dealings are prohibited under the Trading With the Enemy (Extension of Powers) Act, 1915. The other parts of the hon. Member's question should be addressed to the Admiralty.
Is my Noble Friend aware that it was only on last Friday that these people were put on the black list, and can he give an assurance that no British Government Department agent abroad shall have dealings with the enemy?
Certainly, I am in a position to give an assurance that no agent of the British Government will communicate with anybody or have dealings with anybody who is on the Statutory list under the Act.
Would the Noble Lord say whether the agents of the Admiralty made these arrangements with Brauss, Mahn and Company, and if they were known to the Government?
I have already said that that part of the question should be addressed to the Admiralty. I have not any information; otherwise I would give it.
Road Board (Engineer)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the treatment accorded to an official of the Road Board by the department of the chief engineer, Southern Command headquarters, and that this gentleman has had to relinquish his post under the Road Board at Salisbury owing to the refusal of the chief engineer to allow him to carry out his duties as resident engineer on the construction of camp roads, resulting in hardship and loss of office; whether he will take the necessary steps to ensure that the gentleman in question may be allowed to follow his profession without unjust restriction; and what compensation it is proposed to award to him for damages sustained owing to the action of the military authorities?
In carrying out works for the Army the Road Board proposed the temporary employment of a gentleman who had previously been employed by the military authorities. The military authorities did not consider it advisable to issue a pass to enter the areas where it was proposed to employ him to this gentleman, and it is understood that in consequence the Road Board dispensed with his services. I cannot undertake that this gentleman shall be employed in areas for which the military authorities are responsible, but he is at liberty to follow his profession without any other restrictions so far as I am aware.
Military Service
Local Tribunals
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that at a meeting of the Glasgow Local Tribunal on the 16th instant the military representative instructed the tribunal that conscientious objectors could receive exemption from combatant service only; and whether this representative will be instructed to read the Act and the notes on administration issued by the Director-General of Recruiting so that he may not in future mislead the tribunal?
I have no knowledge of the statement said to have been made by the military representative before the Glasgow Local Tribunal on the 16th instant, but should any misconception have existed in the past the Memorandum recently issued by the Local Government Board on this question should remove it.
Will the Memorandum be sent to the military representatives as well as to the tribunals?
Yes, I will see to it.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War, if, in view of the fact that the local tribunal in Orkney are causing dissatisfaction in Orkney by calling out men who are absolutely necessary to the working of the farms and ignoring the instructions issued with reference to this, so that farms will be thrown out of cultivation and their owners ruined, he will direct their attention to the instructions issued by himself, Lord Derby and Lord Selborne?
I have received only one complaint from Orkney, and in that case the complainant is appealing to the Appeal Tribunal, which is the proper course. On the local tribunals in rural districts, so far as I can judge, the agricultural interest is well represented. Full instructions have been issued to the tribunals.
May I send my right hon. Friend copies of the correspondence showing that the agricultural interest has been grossly neglected by the tribunals?
I think that if my hon. Friend will advise his correspondents to make their appeals that will be the most useful reply.
Will not my right hon. Friend advise my hon. Friend to revise his views on the Act.
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether the Llanfyllin Tribunal has only refused to accede to twenty out of 578 claims for exemption, and has given absolute exemption in upwards of 400 cases; whether in so small a town this amounts to a refusal on the part of the tribunal to administer the Military Service Act, 1915; and what action has been or will be taken to enforce the law?
The case alluded to appears to be that of the rural district of Llanfyllin, an area with a population at the last Census of over 12,000. I understand that the figures as regards exemptions are approximately as stated. I do not know in how many cases the military representative may have appealed, or may hereafter raise a question.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that some vigorous action is required in respect of that which brings into contempt the town, the rural area, the county, and the principality?
What action; I do not know what the hon. Gentleman means? No action can be taken except that which I have indicated, namely, an appeal against a decision if the military representative thinks it improper.
Is it impossible for my right hon. Friend to bring any pressure to bear upon this tribunal?
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that the rural district council of East Westmorland has refused to grant representation on the local tribunal to organised labour, notwithstanding the fact that the only two labour organisations in the district both submitted a nomination; and whether he will ask this body to put their house in order in so far as the personnel of the local tribunal is concerned?
I am making inquiry of the local authority on this subject. According to the return received by me the local tribunal contains a labour representative.
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that on the 24th instant the Hackney Tribunal refused exemption to a man reported by the military doctor to be suffering from a withered right arm, crippled toes, and flat feet; and can he state what military service this man will be called upon to perform?
I am not aware of the case to which the hon. Member refers. It is for the local tribunal to decide each case on its merits. I have no authority to interfere in individual cases. I may add that, as regards voluntarily attested men, the question of medical fitness is one for the military authorities, not for the tribunals.
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the Amalgamated Press, Limited, appealed to the Southwark Tribunal on the 24th instant in respect of fifty-one single men stated to be essential to the production of their weekly journals, with the result that twenty-one for whom they claimed total exemption were granted six months' exemption; will he say whether the production of "Comic Cuts" and "Forget-Me-Not" is regarded' as work of national importance at a time when single men are being discharged from munition works; and, if so, will he take steps to secure uniformity of exemption in accordance with this decision?
My attention had not previously been drawn to this matter. The military authorities have the remedy in their own hands in any case in which they think exemption has been improperly given, as the military representative has the right to appeal.
Commissions
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, where commanding officers consistently refuse permission to suitable men to accept commissions and such refusals are contrary to the interests of the Service, any steps are taken by the military authorities to prevent this abuse of the discretionary power exercised by such commanding officers?
I must repeat that men cannot be considered as eligible for commissions unless recommended by their commanding officer, who is the best judge of their qualifications. My hon. Friend's question, if he will permit me to say so, begs a question which cannot be decided in this House, but only by the military authorities who know the facts of the case.
Will the right hon. Gentleman see that steps are taken with regard to these commissions?
Yes; we are endeavouring to do that now.
What remedy is there if there is a consistent refusal by the commanding officer with regard to these commissions?
My right hon. Friend knows that he communicates with me.
Trade Unionists (Dismissal)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that an employer named Mr. E. H. Bentall, of Heybridge, Essex, is promising workmen that they will obtain exemption from military service if they are willing to work in the moulding department in connection with the above firm's works, where the employer has himself discharged five of his workmen for having joined a trade union, and where over forty of the men in this department have left their work in consequence of the arbitrary action of this employer to them; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
As stated in my reply to the hon. Member's question on the 23rd instant, any complaint as to the labour conditions prevailing at this firm's works would be dealt with by the Minister of Munitions. I will bring these further statements to the notice of my right hon. Friend.
Enlistment Under Age
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether boys of sixteen and seventeen who joined the Army pretending they were older are refused pensions if they are disabled; will he say on what ground they are first accepted and sent into the firing-line and then refused national support when they have suffered disablement in defence of their country; and will he state how many boys under eighteen years of age he estimates have been enlisted in the Army since the War began?
I will refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to the hon. Member for East Edinburgh on the 23rd March.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give me an estimate of the numbers of boys sent into the Army?
No, Sir, I cannot possibly give those numbers
Royal Sussex Regiment
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the men of the Royal Sussex Regiment were ordered by Colonel Johnson to be inoculated on board ship on their way to India; that two privates availed themselves of their right to refuse, and were awarded the punishment of twenty-five days' confinement for their refusal; that in the case of one at least of these men not a single inoculation parade had been missed; that the punishment was admitted to be for refusing the operation itself, and that Colonel Johnson gave the Indian Government as his authority for the order; will he say if men who have joined the British Army as volunteers become thereby subject to the Indian Government; and, in case a miscarriage of justice has taken place, will these men be compensated and the officer censured for disobeying the Regulations of the British Army?
I am causing an inquiry to be made into this case.
Exemption Certificates
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been drawn to the case of William Henry Salmon, of Countesthorpe, Leicester, who, upon presenting himself for attestation in November, 1915, was rejected as medically unfit, but who was requested by Major H. Stuart Murray, of the Glen Parva Barracks, on the 2nd instant, to send him for inspection the certificate of exemption, and promising that it would be returned, and who, the certificate not having been returned, was ordered on the 16th instant to join the Colours; and what action the War Office proposes to take in this case?
I cannot say whether any action is necessary in this case until the report I have called for has been received.
Can the right hon. Gentleman not say what action the man should take as to the withholding of his certificate of rejection when he is ordered to report himself?
It all depends on the kind of rejection. If the man has a certificate of rejection after the 15th August last year he has only to report that fact, giving the nature of the rejection, and he is outside the scope of the Act.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Mr. E. W. Jeffs, of Derby, was examined in accordance with the instructions for the physical and medical examination of candidates for commissions in the Regular Army and Special Reserve and was given a certificate on 19th August, 1915, to the effect that he was unfit for military service; that the military authorities have now sent him a notice calling him up for service under the Military Service Act, 1916; and whether this man should be excepted, seeing that he offered himself for enlistment since 14th August, 1915, and was rejected?
I cannot find from my hon. Friend's question that this man had offered himself for enlistment and been rejected. If this be the case, as it appears to be, he has not complied with the requirements of paragraph 6 of the First Schedule of the Military 'Service Act and is not entitled to be excepted from the provisions of the Act.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether military representatives are instructed to appeal against the decisions of local tribunals granting absolute exemption to only sons who are the sole support of widowed mothers?
The answer is in the negative.
Private Wankin (Inquiry)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War the result of his inquiry into the case of Private Wankin?
No, Sir. I cannot state the result of the inquiries, which are not yet completed.
Does the right hon. Gentleman think that he will be in a position to reply very soon?
I really do not know; but if my hon. Friend will speak to me afterwards, I perhaps may be able to elucidate the point. I do not know who he is.
Medically Rejected Men
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that notices calling upon medically rejected men to report themselves are still being issued; and, if so, whether he will issue instructions that no further notices are to be issued to men of whose medical rejection the recruiting officers have a record?
Notice papers are not being sent to men whom the recruiting officers know to have been rejected— i.e. , to those who are entered in the Military Register as having been rejected. If any men are inadvertently called upon, the matter can quite easily be put straight.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give instructions to the authorities at Hamilton to look at the records which they actually have, so that inconvenience may be spared to a large number?
I will cause that to be done.
Government Departments (Exemptions)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War how many exemptions under the Military Service Act, 1916, have been granted by Government Departments, giving the number from, each Department; and how many of these have been recently cancelled or withdrawn?
I cannot make any statement on this matter as regards Departments other than that which I have the honour to represent, but I may say that on the assumption that only Civil servants and War Office clerical staff are in question, the number of exemptions granted under the provisions of the Military Service Act, 1916, amounts to thirteen. None of these have been recently cancelled or withdrawn.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what percentage that represents on the total number?
I do not know if the hon. Gentleman was in the House when I made a statement a few weeks ago that there are 6,350 people employed by the? War Office, including both sexes.
Applications and Appeals
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War how many cases have been adjudged by the local tribunals under the Military Service Act, 1916, and how many remain for adjudication; how many appeals have been taken to the Appeal Tribunal by aggrieved persons and how many by permission of the Army Council; how many of these appeals have been decided, stating the results as to confirmation or reversal; how many appeals have been taken from the Appeal Tribunal by its leave to the Central Tribunal, if any; and what progress has been made in the Central Tribunal in disposal of such appeals?
The War Office have no means of answering this question accurately.
Can the right hon. Gentleman answer the latter part of the question?
I really do not know. Perhaps my hon. Friend might put the inquiry to my right hon. Friend.
Fishermen
asked whether fishermen are exempt under the Military Service Act, 1916, or whether they are required, as an alternative to enlistment if of military age, to join the Royal Navy or enrol in the Royal Naval Reserve (Trawler Section) or in the Royal Volunteer Reserve (Y Section), to be called up as required?
The Admiralty have exercised their right under the Military Service Act to have the first call on the service of fishermen who are liable to service under that Act. The War Office, therefore, carry out the Admiralty wishes in respect of fishermen.
Post Office Staff (Civil and Military Pay)
asked the Postmaster-General whether the men in his Department who have enlisted are still paid their ordinary salaries in full; whether this is done where full soldier's pay is given to these men along with separation allowance; and is it in many instances the case that female substitutes are employed to do the work of these soldiers, sometimes the substitutes being the wives of the men themselves?
Full civil pay in addition to military pay and allowances is only granted to those members of the Post Office staff who enlist in certain sections. About 15,000 out of the 50,000 Post Office servants who are on active service come under this arrangement. It may be the case that in a few instances the wives of men on active service are engaged as substitutes. The pay of the 15,000 men I have mentioned is under consideration by the Post Office and the War Office.
Central Appeal Tribunal (Mr. Cyril Jackson's Appointment)
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether Mr. Cyril Jackson, the vice-chairman of the Statutory Committee, has been appointed to the Central Appeal Tribunal; whether this will interfere with the work of the Statutory Committee, which is urgent; and whether it is impossible to substitute another gentleman in his place?
Mr. Cyril Jackson was a member of the Central Appeal Tribunal set up last autumn. That body has now, with the addition of one or two other members, been constituted the Central Tribunal under the Military Service Act If Mr. Jackson finds that the work of the Statutory Committee, which obviously has the first call on him at the present time, makes it impossible to fulfil the duties of a member of the Central Tribunal, arrangements can, I have no doubt, be made for his relinquishing the latter.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that, as Mr. Cyril Jackson is receiving £1,750 as vice-chairman of the Statutory Committee, he ought to be released from the other work?
I think it may be perfectly proper to leave it to Mr. Jackson. He has been ill recently and not able to take any part in his work. I am quite confident he will do that which is best in the interests of the country.
Conscientious Objectors
asked whether tribunals are supposed to consider applications for total exemption from miners for conscientious reasons on the ground that they are otherwise provisionally exempted; and, if so, whether any miner whose exemption is withdrawn will have an opportunity afterwards to have a plea of conscientious objection to military service heard?
It is open to a miner to whom a certificate of exemption has been given to apply for a variation or renewal of the certificate on grounds of conscientious objection when the original certificate ceases to be in force.
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the lack of impartiality and tolerance displayed by many tribunals up and down the country to appellants on the ground of conscientious objection, and also the influence exercised by the military representative, with the result that such a thing as absolute exemption in these cases is practically unknown; and, in view of this, whether he will remind the appeal tribunals that absolute exemption can be granted in cases where the genuine convictions of the appellant are such that neither exemption from combatant service nor conditional exemption will adequately meet the case?
My hon. Friend will have received a copy of the circular I issued last week to local and appeal tribunals, in which he will see that the point raised in his question has been referred to.
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been drawn to the resignation of Mr. W. B. Foster, secretary of the Leeds Labour party, from the Leeds Tribunal, in order to draw public attention to the fact that the tribunal has disregarded the instruction to treat the appeals of conscientious objectors in an impartial and tolerant spirit; and does he propose to institute an inquiry as regards this matter?
I am making inquiries respecting the matter to which the hon. Member refers.
"Starred" and Reserved Occupations
asked the President of the Local Government Board, as Chairman of the Cabinet Conference, whether he has received a request from Lord Derby that a day should be set apart for the full discussion of the recruiting situation, when an explanation could be given of the steps now being taken by various Government Departments to release single men from "starred" or reserved occupations, and whether this discussion can take place before 7th April?
I have received my Noble Friend's request. After consulting my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies, I propose to make a full statement to-morrow, when the Government will move the Adjournment at an early hour for the purpose. On the Prime Minister's return, the question of a day for discussion will be considered, and he will make an announcement.
May I ask whether any debate will be permitted tomorrow on that statement?
It is on the Adjournment.
Royal Fusiliers (Commissions)
asked the number of men of the Public Schools battalions of the Royal Fusiliers who have obtained commissions, giving the numbers from each battalion, respectively, and the number, respectively, who had served at the front before receiving commissions?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for South-West Manchester on the 22nd March. I fear I cannot give these figures, and that if they were given in the form suggested in the question they would be fallacious.
Does not the War Office know exactly what has occurred with regard to this?
I think that the facts are fairly well known, but I cannot say that accurate figures could be given in the form in which my hon. Friend asks for them. The general principle is no doubt completely well known.
Will the right hon. Gentleman see that commissions are given in suitable cases?
That is exactly what we are endeavouring to do.
Does the right hon. Gentleman know that he has not done it for months and months?
I do not agree with my hon. and gallant Friend. The House is familiar with what we have done. The hon. and gallant Gentleman has just returned and does not know. We have written to the commanding officers, and are pursuing the matter. It will not rest.
War Office Contracts
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of complaints of the unbusinesslike methods practised by the War Office, especially with regard to contracts; whether he is aware of constant complaints that letters are answered frequently only after long delay, and that sometimes no answers can be obtained even on matters of great importance; whether he will take means to call the attention of the leading officials responsible to these complaints; and whether he will consider the desirability of setting up an independent Committee with full powers to investigate these complaints and to recommend the means by which more satisfactory methods may be adopted in future?
Charges against public Departments are not uncommon, but unless they are specific in character it is almost impossible to act upon them. If the hon. Member will give me particulars of some cases I will have them investigated. He will, of course, remember the enormous volume of work with which the Department has to deal and will not he so unreasonable as to expect that in the present stress there shall be absolutely no cases of delay. I fear in my own case, for instance, owing to my being in receipt of 300–400 letters a day, in spite of much valuable assistance afforded me, delay has occurred and is, indeed, inevitable.
Mesopotamia Campaign
Medical Service
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if, when the shortage of doctors and nurses and hospital equipment for the forces in Mesopotamia was realised by the Government, any endeavour was made to transfer some of the hospital equipment in Egypt and at present not being used, and so to secure aid to those wounded who are dying for want of attention?
Yes, Sir. Aid was offered as soon as it was realised that aid was wanted.
Questions
Volunteer Training Corps
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War how long an interval, if any, will intervene between the receipt through the proper channels by the Secretary of State for War of an offer of the services under the Volunteer Act, 1863, of a volunteer corps and the acceptance of such services?
Obviously, I cannot say how long the interval will be in each case, but though some interval will be necessary I agree that it should be as brief as possible.
Will my right hon. Friend kindly bear in mind how long the recognition of Volunteer Training Corps has been under consideration, and, remembering how long steps have been delayed, will he see that the delay is dealt with as early as he can?
I will endeavour to do my best, but my hon. Friend must remember that the matter which is under consideration requires a good deal of thinking out.
Allied Subjects (Repatriation)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War why no attempt has yet been made to repatriate subjects of allied countries so that they can serve in the respective armies of those countries; and is he aware that many of these allied subjects who are avoiding military service are occupying positions formerly held by British subjects now with the Colours?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given on the 16th instant by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to the hon. Member for Somerset, North. Assistance has been given to the French and Belgian authorities with a view to securing the return of Frenchmen and Belgians of military age. No similar arrangements have yet been made with the Russian or Italian authorities. I have no information as to the last part of my hon. Friend's question.
Royal Irish Fusiliers
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War why the military authorities have not inquired into the death and burial of Patrick Sullivan, a soldier in the Royal Irish Fusiliers, one of two brothers both wounded in action; and whether an explanation of that case can now be given?
As I have before stated, I will inquire into this ease if the hon. Gentleman will give me the necessary data in order to enable me to trace it, but I am not prepared to make inquiries into these cases of individual soldiers unless the proper data are furnished. Surely, if the hon. Gentleman takes a real interest in this deceased soldier, he will put himself to the trouble of obtaining the information required, instead of referring me to an unspecified issue of an unnamed provincial journal.
Venereal Disease
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War how the recent figures given regarding admission ratio per 1,000 for venereal disease in Egypt compare with the years 1913, 1914, and 1915?
The annual admission ratio per 1,000 of strength for the years mentioned was:—
Air Services
Anti-Aircraft Corps
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War (1) whether he can say what the War Office intends to do with the Anti-Aircraft Corps; (2) whether the places of the men of the Anti-Aircraft Corps are now being taken by others; whether these men are untrained and have their knowledge and experience yet to gain; whether the services of the Anti-Aircraft Corps are not to be utilised as formerly; and (3) whether the men taking the places of the Anti-Aircraft Corps are very many more in number; whether the number of officers is also increased; and whether the cost to the nation is thereby very much enhanced?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answers I gave to the hon. Member for Shoreditch on 2nd March. All these questions rest on the false assumption that the naval personnel are being got rid of and being replaced by soldiers. It has been repeatedly stated in both Houses of Parliament that this has not been done and is not in contemplation.
I beg to give notice that I will call attention to this subject on the Third Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill.
Enemy Aircraft Raids
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, since a recent raid on the North-East Coast, any special guns have been erected on the roof of a certain municipal building in a North-East Coast town?
The mounting of guns for defence against aerial attacks is not a subject on which information can be given in the most public manner possible— i.e. , in an answer to a question in this House.
May I ask whether the mounting of wooden guns is a question on which an answer could be given in the public interest?
No, Sir, I do not think it would be.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he can say whether any and, if so, how many of our airmen were injured when they went up in pursuit of the enemy during the recent Zeppelin and aircraft raids; and, if so, if any such injuries were due to the action of the enemy or to any-preventable causes?
There were three casualties to officers of the Royal Flying Corps. The injuries were not due to the action of the enemy, nor to any cause which was, at the time they were incurred, preventable.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the six Zeppelins reported as having been sighted in the neighbourhood of two East Kent towns and two East Anglian towns on Sunday night, 19th March, or in the early hours of Monday morning, were driven off by our aeroplanes; and, if not, will he say whether any warning of the presence of these airships was given to the police, military, and civil authorities at the neighbouring towns?
Reports were made on the night in question of the presence of Zeppelins off the coast. Certain appropriate action was taken in consequence and aeroplanes went up in certain places. This is all it is desirable to say.
Questions
Joint Committee
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he can say whether the Government War Committee known as the Derby-Montagu Committee, or any member of it, has approached the hon. Member for East Herts with a view to his becoming a member or adviser; if any such invitation was given and not accepted, if he can say if any reason was given for the refusal; and if he will say whether this Committee possesses power to add to its numbers or whether additional appointments rest with the Secretary of State for War?
I understand that the hon. Member for East Herts was asked to give evidence before the Committee presided over by Lord Derby. He replied that no useful purpose would be served until this House had satisfied him upon the powers and authority of the Committee. No invitation has been given to him to become a member of or adviser to the Committee.
Wounded Soldiers, Bishop's Stortford
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the indignation existing in East Herts owing to the treatment of some hundreds of convalescent wounded soldiers in the neighbourhood of Bishop's Stortford; and can he inform the House who was responsible for permitting these men to sleep on bare boards without the usual straw bedding and for allowing a considerable number to be accommodated in cucumber frames?
The men referred to were either fit for duty or light duty and were not convalescent wounded soldiers. It is regretted that straw could not be obtained locally and an extra blanket was issued in place. Accommodation was allotted by Central Quartering Committee for 600 men in glasshouses at Stansted; these houses are at least 8 feet high, comfortably heated, and have been previously occupied by troops.
Will the right hon. Gentleman inform me whether steps will be taken that this shall not occur again?
It depends upon what the hon. Gentleman is referring to. If he is referring to these men having been taken to glasshouses, I am afraid the answer is in the negative, but as to the absence of straw, I will endeavour to see that it does not occur again.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some of these glasshouses have no floors, and that they are damp and exceedingly injurious to health?
That information has not been conveyed to me, but I shall certainly have inquiry made.
Naval and Military Services (Pensions and Grants)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is in a position to give the promised information regarding the case of Patrick Mahone, invalided from the front and now an inmate of the workhouse at Great Yarmouth?
The Chelsea Commissioners are now in a position to consider this case, having received the necessary information, and they will discuss it this week. I cannot yet, therefore, announce any decision.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a fortnight ago I gave notice about this case?
I am perfectly well aware of that. I do not think it is very reasonable that my hon. Friend should try and hurry a great Department like the Chelsea Commissioners, because this particular case is not the only one.
asked whether any pension, and, if so, from what date, has been granted to Private Edward Shea, Royal Munster Fusiliers, in view of the fact that after taking part in the battles of Ypres and the Aisne he was wounded at Festubert, is unable to follow his occupation as tailor, and is permanently unfitted for labouring work?
The Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital awarded Private Shea a pension of 7s. a week conditional with effect from the 8th December, 1915, the day following the date of his discharge. The medical board by whom he was examined were able to take a more hopeful view of his condition than is suggested by the hon. Member's question.
Untilled Arable Land
asked the Prime Minister whether, in the joint interests of increased revenue and increased food production, the Cabinet have considered the advisability of imposing a special or increased tax upon arable land which is kept untilled; and, if so, with what result?
My right hon. Friend is unable to anticipate his next financial statement.
Has he considered the point?
Trade After War (Neutral Countries)
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the discussion of those trade relations after the War, he could inform the House of the steps, if any, taken to ascertain the views of those British firms chiefly trading with neutral countries, such as China?
asked whether, in considering the question of trade relations among the Allies after the War, due regard will be had to the value of neutral markets?
His Majesty's Government fully appreciate the importance of preserving and extending British trade in neutral markets. The subject will naturally come under the consideration of the Special Committees which I am appointing to inquire into the position of certain important branches of British industry after the War. In addition, Mr. Ainscough, who has recently completed a commercial mission in China, on behalf of the Board of Trade, has been closely in touch with important British firms trading with the Far East, and would be glad to receive any further information as to their views which they care to supply.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether British trade interests in China, a neutral country, will receive careful recognition in any discussions which may take place among the Allies with regard to economic relations after the War?
Most certainly.
Is Japan to be represented at this Conference?
I could not answer that question without notice, but I think it is more than likely that Japan will be represented.
Blockade (Orders in Council)
asked the Prime Minister if Admiral Jellicoe has protested against any Orders in Council relating to the carrying out of the blockade against Germany?
My right hon. Friend does not know what is the source of the rumour to which my right hon. Friend refers. In any case, he will agree with him in thinking that it would be highly improper to refer in this House to confidential communications between the Admiralty and officers holding high command.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether Admiral Jellicoe has complained that the Contraband Committee has released ships which the Navy have taken?
Trade Relations With Germany
Economic Conference in Paris
asked the Prime Minister whether it is proposed that the President of the Board of Trade should be the only Cabinet Minister to attend the Paris Conference; and whether, in view of the interest which the sister States of the Empire have in the complex questions to be discussed, he will arrange for the Secretary of State for the Colonies also to take part in the Conference?
asked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the fact that the present Government is a Coalition representing parties holding divergent economic opinions, he will undertake that the Government shall be represented at the economic conference in Paris by a member of each of the parties in the Coalition?
asked the Prime Minister whether the President of the Board of Trade will attend the Economic Conference of the Allies to be held in Paris; and, if so, will he do so as a representative of the United Kingdom only or of the whole British Smpire?
The Prime Minister has asked me to attend this Conference with my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, and I hope to do so.
The following question stood on the Order Paper in the name of Mr. R. McNEILL: 55. To ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of his statement that nothing will be said by the representatives of His Majesty's Government in Paris at the forthcoming Economic Conference which will in any degree fetter the free acton of the House of Commons and of the desirability of the Conference being fruitful of practical results, he will afford an opportunity for this House to express an opinion that may guide the action of the British representatives at the Conference by giving a day before the Conference meets for the discussion of the Motion standing in the name of the hon. Member for St. Augustine's?
A request reached me this morning to postpone question No. 56, which is not in my name. It is possible it may have referred to No. 55. I was asked to postpone it indefinitely, until the Prime Minister's return. I think that is rather an unreasonable request. Perhaps the Secretary of State for the Colonies will be able to answer it to-morrow?
I did request, or give instructions to request, my hon. Friend to postpone it because the Conference cannot be held for a long time, and I thought it would be no injury to the House if it were postponed until the Prime Minister came back.
Steel Helmets
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the pattern of steel helmet supplied to British Infantry at the front has been found to be satisfactory in all respects; and whether he can give an assurance that all battalions in the field will shortly be equipped with, helmets either of the present or of an improved pattern, as completely as is now the case in the French Army?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, as all battalions in the field will be equipped with the helmet. I am glad to be able to give the assurance asked for in the last part of the question.
Questions
9th Bedfordshire Regiment (New Camping Ground)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the 9th Bedfordshire Regiment, now billeted in private houses at Sittingbourne, is to go under canvas forthwith; and, if so, will he have special inquiries made as to whether the projected camping ground, affords a suitable site in view of the health of the regiment?
Yes, Sir. Orders have been given for the battalion in question to go into camp, and I fancy they moved on the 25th. This step has been taken on the advice of the sanitary and medical officers owing to a case of cerebro-spinal meningitis having occurred in the billet occupied by troops at Sittingbourne. The new camp is situated on high grass land, with pipe-water supply adjoining, and is an admirable camping ground in every respect. It was selected by a committee consisting of a Staff officer, a medical officer, and a Royal Engineer officer, and was personally inspected and approved by the Major-General Commanding the Thames and Medway Garrison.
66th East Lancashire Division (Sanitary Section)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that an advertisement was recently inserted in the Manchester newspapers, as well as special papers concerned with sanitation, inviting men between the ages of twenty-two and forty to join the sanitary section of the 66th East Lancashire Division; whether he is aware that, when attested men with the necessary qualifications applied, they were informed that all the vacancies were filled up, although at that time not a single man had then joined, and can he state whether Colonel R. Cecil Winder, V.D., secretary of the East Lancashire Territorial Association, gave instructions to the officer commanding the Royal Army Medical Corps entrusted with the formation of the section that he must not take attested men; and whether he will make inquiry into this matter with a view to giving attested men a chance of joining this section so that their special knowledge may be thoroughly utilised in the future?
I have called for a Report.
3rd Royal Sussex Regiment (Private Howard)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether Private A. Howard, No. 7,800, 3rd Royal Sussex Regiment, who was shot through his left eye and through the neck, on 9th May, 1915, and has lost the sight of his left eye, was warned to hold himself in readiness to proceed overseas on 20th March; and whether it is the practice of the War Office to send men suffering from an infliction of this character abroad, seeing the disadvantages such men would be placed under when in the firing line?
I have no report regarding the details of this particular case, but officers or men with one eye are not invalided from the service, and it is possible that they may in certain cases be put in category A, i.e. , be classed as fit for general service.
Does the right hon. Gentleman say that a man with one eye ought to go into the trenches?
It has been decided by the military authorities that a man with one eye may be very useful, especially if be is a good shot. That does not mean that all men with one eye should be taken for general service.
Castle Bromwich Hutments
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether hutments have been placed on the Birmingham playing fields at Castle Bromwich which have been formed out of sewage matter, notwithstanding that the medical authority for Warwickshire communicated his objections to his Department, pointing out the difficulties of sanitation; whether better sites could have been selected near the canal, where easy transportation for building materials is available, with a good supply of water; will he state why the representations made to him on this subject were ignored as well as those coming from local people; whether he is aware that there are large buildings in the district, the property of the Drainage Board, which could have been converted into dormitories at a very small cost, saving the money spent on these huts?
The sub-soil on which the huts in question are built is gravel, and the site chosen was that most convenient for training the troops in aviation, which is the main object of the camp. The representations made were not ignored. A special visit was paid on the 8th January, 1916, by the Director of Fortifications and Works, accompanied by the sanitary engineer of the War Department. They met the engineer to the Birmingham, Tame and Rea District Drainage Board on the ground and considered the matter carefully and came to the conclusion that the objections raised to the site were untenable. Local objections are, of course, at all times listened to, but the War Department must reserve the right to accept them or reject them. I am informed that no buildings available in the vicinity were brought to notice by the engineer to the drainage board, and it is extremely doubtful if, taking into account the necessity in the case of the aeronautical service of the men living close to their work, they would be as suitable as huts erected on the spot.
Does the right hon. Gentleman say the hut soil was gravel, and does he deny that these huts were built oh sewage matter?
Yes, I deny that.
Army Surgical Cases
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War (1) whether he is aware that a private soldier from the Mansfield Division, who had been suffering from a sprained muscle, last week visited Mr. Barker, the manipulative surgeon, paying his own expenses to London; that this surgeon effected an immediate cure of the injury after the Army medical authorities had repeatedly failed to do so; will he say why the Army should be deprived of Mr. Barker's services for reasons of medical etiquette; (2) whether the War Office have refused to avail themselves of the services of Mr. H. A. Barker, the manipulative surgeon, owing to this gentleman refusing to conform strictly to the etiquette of the profession; whether he is aware that Mr. Barker has successfully treated a number of officers and men in the Army and Navy, as well as medical men and their families, where eminent surgeons have failed; and will he therefore direct the medical authorities that they are not to have regard to professional etiquette but to the interests of the patients, seeing that Mr. Barker has offered to give his services without payment to the War Office?
I have no information other than that now tendered to me by my hon. Friend regarding the private soldier from his Division, who is stated to have been cured by Mr. Barker. It is the case that the War Office have declined to accept the services of Mr. H. A. Barker, together with those of several other gentlemen who are not registered medical practitioners. I cannot say that it is the intention of the Army Council to direct the medical authorities to employ unqualified medical men to treat military patients. If this were done, I feel quite certain that from no quarter would there be a louder outcry that our soldiers were not receiving the necessary skilled attention than from Members of this House.
Is not the only objection against the qualifications of Mr. Barker that he refuses to conform to the medical professional etiquette? Is it not also the fact that Gentlemen sitting on the Treasury Bench have consulted Mr. Barker with advantage?
I cannot answer for all my colleagues. I can only say that the reason why the Army Council cannot accept the services of Mr. Barker is that he is not a registered medical practitioner.
Charge of Assault Against Officer
asked whether the inquiry into the case of assault by Second-Lieutenant Plummer, at Aberlour, will include an inquiry into the action of Colonel Leith, commanding at Aberdeen, in suppressing civil proceedings which had been commenced and which the police were desirous of proceeding with, and in suppressing all references to the incident in the Press?
I thought the hon. Gentleman was aware that the Court of Inquiry was a military inquiry. Under what powers and for what reasons the Procurator Fiscal stopped the civil proceedings is a matter upon which the hon. Gentleman should, I think, address himself to my right hon. Friend the Lord Advocate. As the Court has been directed to investigate the whole case the point in question will doubtless form part of the inquiry, but the War Office is not responsible for the action of the Procurator Fiscal.
Haulbowline (Discharge of Men)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that men with long service are being discharged from the military department at Haulbowline and their work done by military; and will he state the reason for discharging these men?
Perhaps my hon. Friend will permit me to defer answering this question until I have obtained some additional information.
Premium Bonds
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will give the reasons which decided the Government to refuse to resort to bonus bonds as a—and probably the only—method of bringing the savings and excess income of wage-earners into the national Exchequer during the present crisis?
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) whether the alleged illegality under the existing law of the proposed premium bonds affected the Government's decision not to issue them; if so, whether his attention has been called to the fact that such alleged illegality could be cured by a single Clause in the next Finance Act; (2) whether he was aware before the date of his refusal to sanction an issue of premium bonds that an important meeting of City men had resolved to send a deputation to interview him upon the subject; if so, why he announced his decision before waiting to hear the views which the deputation desired to lay before him; and (3) if he will state to what Committee or Committees the question of a proposed issue of premium bonds was referred; what was the decision or advice of each Committee; when was such decision or advice communicated to him?
asked whether the announcement that it had been decided not to issue premium bonds represented the decision of the Cabinet or of the Treasury?
The decision not to make an issue of premium bonds was taken by the Government, and it was in consequence of this decision that the proposed deputation was rendered unnecessary.
The question of such an issue was not specifically referred to any Committee. The suggestion was considered by the Committee on War Loans for the Small Investor, which, for the reasons explained in their report, were unable to recommend it for adoption. The two Committees which are now sitting to deal with questions of the finance and administration of the various war savings schemes have, however, made certain representations to my right hon. Friend on the subject, from which it appears that they are in favour—though not unanimously—of some scheme of this nature.
The fact that an issue of premium bonds would be contrary to the existing law was, of course, taken into account by the Government, but their decision was based primarily on the ground that such an issue would not be in the public interest.
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the portion of the question which asks for the reasons why the Government came to this decision? And will he take into account the fact that there is an element of chance in many, if mot in most, investments?
My hon. Friend knows that there is much to be said for and against the issue of premium bonds. I do not think I can undertake to debate the point at Question Time.
Would it not have been better to have heard the representations of the deputation before coming to a decision?
The Government acted with characteristic promptitude and arrived at a decision before the deputation reached them.
Will there be an opportunity of debating the question in this House?
I imagine that whenever the Chancellor of the Exchequer introduces any loan proposals alternative schemes will be in order.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that it has been the custom to issue bonds on undertakings which are redeemed by drawing at a premium over the usual price; and, if such a course is not contrary to the provisions of existing Statutes, will he state if different provisions prevail for Government issues as against other issues?
Bonds compulsory redeemable by drawings over a series of years at a price considerably in excess of the issue price, to which my hon. Friend refers, have been made by municipalities etc., situate in foreign countries and not, so far as my right hon. Friend has been able to ascertain, by British corporations or companies.
My question did not refer to municipal corporations only. The information I want is whether such an issue is correct under existing Statutes?
I do not think I am competent to give a legal opinion on a subject of that kind. My right hon. Friend sought legal advice as to the issue of premium bonds by the Government, and the legal advice was that it would not be competent.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say, without giving a legal opinion, whether the Government is not aware of issues having been made to be redeemed by drawings at premium, and if such issues are illegal, and, if not, if he would state the difference between Government and other issues?
I cannot tell that. If the Government wish to make an issue the first step is to see whether that issue is legal or to take the necessary steps. It does not refer to the Law Officers questions of law which are not revelant to the proposal before them.
I beg to give notice that I shall raise the question on the Motion for Adjournment this evening.
Money-Lenders' and Drapers' Circulars
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) whether his attention has been called to circulars issued by money-lenders inviting persons of all classes to borrow money; whether, having regard to the necessity for national economy, he will consider the desirability of prohibiting the issue of such invitations during the continuance of the War; and (2) whether his attention has been called to the booklets and circulars issued by drapery firms inciting the public to an extravagant expenditure upon dress and articles of luxury; and whether, in accordance with the policy of the official intimation on bad form in dress and in the interest of national economy, he will take steps to discourage these methods of advertising?
I agree that advertisements of the kind referred to in the questions are very undesirable, but I do not think that a Government censorship would be practicable.
Who pays for these advertisements?
It will be part of the expenses of the Committee which issues them.
Does the Government make any Grant?
Yes, certainly.
Then why do you not censor the advertisements?
Butter and Bacon (Fraudulent Misdescription)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is attention has been called to the growing practice in Glasgow of selling, as Irish, bacon which is not of Irish origin; can he state what prosecutions have recently been instituted and what were the fines imposed; and whether, in view of the fact that attention has been frequently drawn to the fraudulent practices in Glasgow whereby two of Ireland's best-known products, butter and bacon, have been brought into disrepute, active steps will be taken to put an end to this system?
I am aware that frauds of the nature mentioned in the first part of the question occur in Glasgow, and I am sending my hon. Friend a note of recent prosecutions there. Active measures are taken to deal with these cases as they arise.
Is the right hon. Gentlemen aware that this system of fraud will not be stopped so long as small fines only are imposed?
Requisitioned Ships
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether, with a view to increase the carrying power by more efficient handling of requisitioned mercantile marine tonnage whilst it is under the control and direction of the Sea Transport Department of the War Office, he will enlist the voluntary assistance of an Advisory Committee of shipping experts?
I stated the facts in regard to this matter in reply to an almost identical question by my hon. Friend last Thursday. My hon. Friend is under a misapprehension as to the procedure. The War Office notifies its demands for sea conveyance, the Admiralty requisitions the ships necessary for the purpose with the advice of the Advisory Committee, and the Admiralty's officers are responsible for loading, stowage, and for discharge of the cargoes conveyed, meeting, of course, the wishes of the military to the utmost extent practicable. The War Office does not itself manage any ships with the exception of certain small craft which it owns, and certain other small craft engaged on Inland Water Transport.
Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the First Lord of the Admiralty stated that the Naval Transport Department merely requisitioned the ships, but that the control and direction of them afterwards were under the Transport Department of the War Office?
My hon. Friend is under another misapprehension. The Admiralty Transport Department is the servant and agent of the military authorities. It requisitions the ships required, and thereafter is responsible for their use.
Kew Gardens (Perambulators)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether, considering that hitherto perambulators have had free access to all State parks, also that all mothers are now being pressed to assist in our industries, he will rescind the order just made that all perambulators entering Kew Gardens be charged either 3d. or 1s. according to the day of the week?
Kew Gardens is not a State park, and hitherto perambulators have had no access to the gardens whatever. Perambulators have been admitted as an entirely new concession, and as the gardens are intended primarily for botanical study, I do not think the present charges can be considered excessive, particularly as a season ticket, which costs £1, will admit the perambulator and the children it contains on every day of the year.
Does the right hon. Gentleman consider it a very good thing to tax workpeople who have been asked to go into munitions factories[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]
Enemy Firms (Singapore)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether all enemy firms in Singapore are to be completely liquidated and their assets sold; and whether this policy is to be generally followed in other British Colonies?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I am in communication with the Governors of other Colonies concerned with a view to the general adoption of this policy.
Prime Minister of Australia
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies (1) whether the Prime Minister of Australia has any mandate from the Commonwealth Parliament to propose any constitutional change in the relations existing between the United Kingdom and the Dominions; and (2) whether the proposals being put forward by the Prime Minister of Australia for the abandonment of Free Trade by this country are consequent upon the recent adoption of any resolution bearing on the subject by the Commonwealth Parliament?
As far as I am aware the answer to these questions is in the negative, but I have no doubt that the views expressed by Mr. Hughes are those of the Government of which he is the head.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if Mr. Hughes has made any proposal for the abandonment of the tariffs that his Government have levied for the purpose of excluding British goods?
Sunday (Postal) Deliveries
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is considering the general suspension of Sunday deliveries; and, if so, whether he will allow sufficient notice of the change to admit of representations being made to shim that it is likely to affect considerable interests adversely at a time when they require every assistance?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I have already received representations both for and against the change, the possibility of which is widely known, and I shall be glad to consider any further representations which may be made to me.
Telephone Service
asked the Postmaster-General when the additional telephones will be installed in factories to meet the Home Office requirements as to notice of air raids; and whether the charges for such installations will be paid by the War Office?
Additional telephones are being installed in munition factories and other establishments for the communication of warnings of the approach of hostile aircraft in order that the necessary steps may be taken to comply with lighting and other public Regulations for safety. These telephones are provided under ordinary rental agreements so far as the Post Office is concerned, but the War surcharge payable for new lines is not enforced in these cases.
Munitions
Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)
asked the Minister of Munitions if he is aware that the "Swan and Pike," "Greyhound," "Ordnance Arms," and the "Royal Small Arms," four licensed houses at Enfield, acquired and conducted by the Liquor Control Board, are open on week days from 12 to 2.30 p.m., 5.30 to 6 p.m., 7 to 9.30 p.m., and 11 to 12 p.m., and that during those hours any person can obtain intoxicating liquors; and will he say why the Order of the Control Board as to non-treating is ignored at the houses in question?
The hon. Member has been misinformed both as to the observance of the No-Treating Regulation and as to the hours of opening at the houses referred to. The total number of hours is half an hour less than the number generally allowed by the London Order, and the No-Treating Order is strictly enforced at all times.
Can I send the hon. Gentleman particulars?
Certainly.
Woolwich Arsenal (Employment of Girls)
asked the Minister of Munitions whether arrangements have been made by which girls of fifteen are to be engaged on night shifts at Woolwich Arsenal; and whether he will take steps to ensure that girls of so young an age shall not be employed on night work either at Woolwich or in other munition works and controlled establishments?
In a few instances a number of girls below sixteen years of age have through inadvertance been employed at Woolwich on night shifts during the past few weeks. Arrangements are being made to relieve these girls from night work as quickly as possible and to prevent any recurrence. The general practice of the Home Office, in consultation with the Ministry of Munitions, has been and is to refuse all proposals for the employment of such young girls on night shifts. In one or two cases, however, through exceptional circumstances a departure has been made from this practice. These cases are now under review with the object of arranging for the discontinuance of such employment at the earliest possible date.
Clyde Industrial Dispute
Statement by Dr. Addison
( by Private Notice ) asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is in a position to make any statement about the industrial situation on the Clyde?
After consultation with my right hon. Friend, who is leading the House, it is felt that in view of the gravity of the crisis which has arisen on the Clyde, the House will permit a longer statement than is usual in answer to a question.
The House will be aware that in January, 1916, in order to secure the necessary supply of labour by means of the policy of dilution, the Minister of Munitions appointed three Commissioners to represent him on the Clyde. Their proceedings, which have been in direct accordance with the Treasury agreement, have been, on the whole, conspicuously successful, and they have secured the confidence both of the local trades unions-leaders and of the employers.
In the course of the past week, however, a number of strikes have been organised in some of the most important munition works in the Clyde district, and energetic attempts to extend them are being made at this moment. At different times strikes have been brought about, sometimes on the most trivial grounds, by a self-appointed body known as the Clyde Workers' Committee. This committee, which, I am informed, was originally styled the Clyde Labour Withdrawal Committee, has repudiated any connection with, or allegiance to, established trades unions, and decided about a fortnight ago to embark on a policy of holding up the production of the most important munitions of war in the Clyde district, with the object, I am informed, of compelling the Government to repeal the Military Service Act and the Munitions of War Act, and to withdraw all limitations upon increases of wages and strikes, and all forms of Government control.
The present series of strikes commenced on the 17th of March, when one of the chief members of this committee insisted that he should be entitled during working hours, without the permission of the management, to leave his work in his own department and go into any other department of the works for the purpose of investigating what was being done with unskilled labour, interviewing the women introduced, and examining into their proficiency, rate of wages, and other matters. The management, whilst offering to afford the man in question all reasonable facilities for this purpose, felt themselves unable to accede to his request, and referred the matter to the Clyde Commissioners. The man in question, however, and his associates, in breach of their own agreement, declined to place the matter before the Clyde Commissioners, and succeeded in bringing out about 1,000 men in these works.
From that time the series of strikes appears to have proceeded upon a systematic and sinister plan. The method adopted has been to bring out on strike workmen engaged upon the production of of a particular heavy gun and gun-mountings, for which we are receiving the most urgent demands. The committee visited in succession works which are making parts of these guns. In many places they have been unsuccessful, but they have succeeded in bringing out a number of men in five different important works engaged upon the manufacture of portions of these guns. The Executive Committee of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, on the matter being reported to them by their local officers, immediately issued a statement repudiating the strike, forbidding the payment of strike benefit, and calling on the men to return to work.
These efforts were unfortunately unsuccessful, and on Friday last it was clear that a situation had arisen which called for immediate action by the Ministry. My right hon. Friend requested the military authorities to remove under Section 14 of the Defence of the Realm Regulations six of the ringleaders, who were found, with others to be contemplating a further extension of their operations. The movement which is now in progress has no connection whatever with any industrial grievance. It is repudiated by the official trades unions, and is plainly being deliberately organised and directed to hold up certain particular munitions of war of which the Army in the field has the most urgent need. Loyal workers on various pretexts are being persuaded and intimidated into participating in this movement. The Ministry considers that the attention of the workers as well as of the public should be called to the character of the movement now in progress. They are satisfied that they have the support of the vast majority of munition workers on the Clyde, who are opposed to the dangerous and disloyal action of the Clyde Workers' Committee, and they have the support also of the trades unions, against whose existence and authority the operations of this organisation are directed as much as against the Government.
The Ministry of Munitions have received loyal assistance and co-operation from the Executive Committee of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers and from their local officials.
The Government are confident that they may rely on the support of Parliament and of the Nation if it becomes necessary to put in force the full powers vested in the Executive under the Defence of the Realm Acts, in order to safeguard and maintain the full unobstructed production of every kind of war material which the country needs for the successful prosecution of the War.
May I ask what has been done with the men who have been arrested, and whether it was under the Defence of the Realm Act that proceedings have been taken?
They are being deported; they are being removed from that area under Regulation 14, and they have the choice of certain other areas. They have been removed, and I understand they, are now in those areas.
Why not send them to Germany?
May I ask if it has been considered whether these men are not guilty of assisting the King's enemies, and thereby are guilty of high treason?
Yes. The whole matter is being considered, and I may say that the method of deporting these men was resorted to in the first instance because a criminal trial would require an interval of six weeks or two months before it could be held, and it was felt that immediate action was necessary.
Can my right hon. Friend say whether it is the intention of the Government to bring these men to trial?
The whole matter is being carefully considered.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the men believe on the Clyde it to be clear that the dispute at Parkhead Forge is due to the men being paid only 5d. an hour—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"]—when the district rate is 10½, and if that is not so will he deny it publicly?
The statement of the hon. Member is quite inaccurate in every particular.
In view of the gravity of the situation, would the right hon. Gentleman make a clear statement now that it is the intention of the Government to charge these men with whatever offence they have committed, so that there will be the clearest intimation to the workers as to what they are charged with, and that they are to have fair dealing? I urge, as a responsible trade union leader and with a view at least of giving confidence to the men, that I think that is the best way to deal with the matter.
The hon. Member may rely upon it that we shall deal with the matter fairly. It is the intention of the Government to take any necessary steps.
I am not questioning the Government's fairness, but I want the men to know that there will be a trial; that is the point.
Whatever measures are found necessary will be taken.
I will raise this question on the Consolidated Fund Bill.
Questions
Canadian Grain Whiskey
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he intends to take measures to prohibit the importation of Canadian grain whiskey?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. The importation of spirits and strong waters of all kinds, except brandy and rum, was prohibited by the Proclamation of 21st March. The prohibition includes Canadian grain whiskey.
Mercantile Shipping (Construction)
asked the Minister of Munitions whether any facilities have been granted for the construction or the finish of mercantile shipping in this country; and, if so, whether he is able to state their nature?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. For some months representatives of the Admiralty and the Board of Trade have been endeavouring to accelerate the completion of certain merchant ships by making the construction of the vessels war service work and, in suitable cases, the Board of Trade are now issuing certificates under the Munitions of War (Amendment) Act, 1916, certifying that the construction of the vessels is necessary for the successful prosecution of the War. Under these certificates the work becomes munitions work.
British Fair, South Kensington
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the officers of the London County Council took any responsibility for the arrangements made in respect of fire at the British Fair recently organised at South Kensington; and whether, in the case of future exhibitions, the same precautions will be adopted as are enforced in the case of exhibitions not under public management?
The arrangements in respect of fire were made in consultation with the London Fire Brigade and the suggestions made by that body were duly carried out. A similar course will be followed next year if the exhibition is held in the same buildings. If it is held in exhibition buildings which are leased for the purpose, the regulations laid down for other exhibitions will, of course, be complied with.
Sugar Supplies
asked the President of the Board of Trade the reasons why the supply of sugar for the brewing industry is not under the control of the Sugar Commission appointed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer; what machinery exists for the purpose of regulating such supply; and whether at the present time the supply of sugar to brewers has been reduced by 25 per cent. like the supplies of preserve makers?
I understand that the Commission only control sugars for food purposes and that the low-grade sugars for brewers are admitted without restriction. Arrangements are, however, being made for limiting the output of beer by brewers, and these arrangements will, of course, have the effect of decreasing the importation of brewing sugars as well as of other brewing materials. The reduction in output will be so calculated as to reduce the importation of brewing materials taken as a whole by 33 1–3 per cent. as compared with last year.
Has my right hon. Friend considered the likelihood of this restriction on this tied sugar being removed shortly?
That question, I think, should be addressed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I cannot give the information.
Restriction of Imports
asked the President of the Board of Trade what his intention is in regard to the prohibition of the importation of various articles from neutral or allied countries, and what the position of merchants will be who have placed orders for forward shipment; and whether he will immediately define his intention so as to avoid unnecessary losses and inconvenience, the present uncertainty being detrimental to the trading community?
I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the official statement which appeared in the Press of Saturday last, the 25th March, of which I am sending him a copy.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the question of the prohibition into this country of Swiss-made chocolate made with German sugar?
Shipping Dispute (Railway Companies' Services)
asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether the seamen concerned in the shipping dispute at present existing between the owners and crews of the steamers plying between Belfast and Fleetwood, Heysham, and Liverpool have offered to submit the matters in dispute to the Board of Trade or the Industrial Commissioner; whether the railway companies and other shipowners concerned have refused to submit to such arbitration, and (2) whether his Department has power, on behalf of the Government, to compel the English railway companies owning the steamers which ply between Belfast and Fleetwood and Heysham to submit the dispute between them and the seamen to arbitration by the Board of Trade or the Industrial Commissioner; and whether he has made any and, if so, what representations to the railway companies involved with the object of terminating the existing labour dispute, which is proving so injurious to the trading communities in the ports involved?
As I stated in reply to the hon. Member for Derby on the 14th March, the railway companies concerned in this matter are not willing to agree to refer the dispute to arbitration. The Board of Trade have no power to insist that the companies shall alter their attitude.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at this moment there is grave danger of this dispute spreading to other industries? Surely the Government ought to say that if one side is willing, in time of war, for arbitration, the other should be?
It is certainly open to the Government to say that, and it may, under certain circumstances, be advisable to do so. I only stated that we have no legal power to intervene.
May I ask if the right hon. Gentleman's Department have made any and, if so, what representations to the railway companies, even apart from their legal powers, in the matter?
Will the right hon. Gentleman say if the Government does not control the railway companies, and why should Ireland have its whole traffic suspended because of a few obstinate railway directors?
May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that this dispute is very likely to be settled in a very short time without any intervention at all?
I am very glad to hear that a settlement is in sight. Communications have, of course, passed between the Board of Trade and the railway companies, and efforts have been made to arrive at a settlement.
Have the railway companies refused overtures of the Board of Trade asking them to submit to arbitration?
I stated in my answer that the railway companies are not willing to agree to refer the dispute to arbitration.
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer my question as to whether the Government control the railway companies of this country?
The hon. and learned Gentleman can, if he likes, put down a question as to the extent of Government control, and I will give him a full answer. At the present moment I can only point out that control does not extend to this question.
Could not the right hon. Gentleman, as representing the Government, requisition ships withheld from use by the railway companies who refuse to submit this dispute to arbitration—surely he can do that?
The dispute will be settled shortly.
Price of Bread (London Bakers)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the fact that London bakers have decided to reduce the price of the standard loaf by ½, but that this reduction is to apply only to bread taken away by the purchasers; and whether, considering that all consumers are entitled to this reduction in price, in respect of the corresponding reduction which has already taken place in the price of wheat, he will take steps to protect the interests of the public in this matter?
I am informed that a general reduction of a ½d. per 4 lbs. of bread has been agreed to by the leading London bakers, taking effect from yesterday. It is understood that purchasers who take delivery over the shop counter will, in general, secure the advantage of a further reduction of a ½d per 4 lbs.
London Seamen's Union (Police Raid)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the grounds on which the police raided the office of the London Seamen's Union on 20th December last, and seized all the papers, stamps, and documents, and afterwards raided the private dwelling of the secretary; whether the union differs in any essential point from a British trade union; and whether any subsequent action is contemplated?
The seizure of papers referred to was made on the order of the competent military authority, and for military reasons which I cannot discuss in detail. No question as to the constitution of the union or its relation to English trade unions was involved.
Prime Minister's Absence
( by Private Notice ) asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will say how long the important business which has called the Prime Minister to the Continent is likely to detain him abroad; whether in his absence the Cabinet has authority to take definite decisions on matters of policy; and whether any Minister is in a position to give authoritative replies to questions in this House on behalf of the Prime Minister on matters touching the conduct of business and the policy of the Government?
The Prime Minister expects to be back at the beginning of next week. The Cabinet has full authority from him to take decisions in his absence, and when necessary whoever speaks for the Prime Minister here will answer questions on the conduct of business; but I am sure that both my hon. Friend and the House will approve of postponing questions which can best be answered by the Prime Minister himself unless an immediate decision is necessary.
In the latter class of questions does the right hon. Gentleman include the position of married men?
We must judge each question on its merits, but a statement will be made on that subject by my right hon. Friend.
Defence of the Realm Act
Suppression of Newspapers (Dublin)
(by Private Notice ) asked the Under-Secretary of State for War in reference to an occurrence in Dublin last Friday, if he will specify the alleged illegality or untruth for which four newspapers in Dublin have been forcibly suppressed, and essential parts of their mechanism and other properties seized and carried off without warrant or statement of cause; what law is held to authorise this procedure; whether all these papers denounced the taxation of Ireland, which when half what it now is, a Royal Commission condemned as excessive; whether the alleged offence was common to them all; whether it was more than an expression of political opinon, seeing that free expression of political opinions held by the Government to be dangerous is nevertheless allowed in London; what is the authority for this discrimination against it in Ireland, under the same law; if the law was supposed to be violated, why were not those responsible tried legally; why the Dublin Press has not been allowed to publish any statement of the facts, but that supplied by the aggressors; and whether the Government consider the present an opportune time for exasperation in Ireland and discredit in America, which this punishing policy must occasion?
I regret that the hon. Gentleman's notice has not reached me.
Then I beg to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland this question to whom I sent an identical notice.
Owing to the roughness of the weather communication with Ireland and this country has momentarily been suspended, and I cannot therefore give a full reply to the hon. Member; but if he will put his question down in the ordinary way he will get an answer.
Nellie Best
asked the Home Secretary whether Nellie Best is in the hospital at Holloway Prison; if so, what is her ailment; whether she is receiving medical attention; whether she is refusing, or has refused, to take food; and whether he will make fresh inquiries into her case?
The prisoner referred to is in hospital owing to her being a rather delicate woman and in order that her dietary may be more varied, as she refuses to benefit by the privilege accorded to prisoners in the first division of purchasing food from outside the prison. She is seen daily by the medical staff, but continues to refuse to be medically examined; she refused some meals on her first admission to the prison, but is now taking food in sufficient quantity.
Will the hon. Gentleman consider her desire to be examined by a lady medical doctor?
I will consult my right hon. Friend upon the point.
Ireland (Taxation)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, to allay the apprehension now prevalent in Ireland, he can give any assurance of a beginning now being made towards restitution of the debt in respect of excessive taxation since the Union found by the competent financial authority in 1896 to be due to Ireland; and whether his forthcoming financial proposals will comprise relief from present burdens in Ireland in accordance with the special exemptions and abatements provided in the Act of Union and with the pledge given by Mr. Pitt on behalf of Great Britain?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. As regards the second part, my right hon. Friend is unable to anticipate his Budget statement.
Land Valuation
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the desirability of securing a cheap and expeditious valuation of the land of the United Kingdom, he will consult on this subject with the Prime Minister of Australia, who, as Attorney-General, was responsible for an Assessment Act under which the taxable land of the Commonwealth was valued by the owners in three months?
My hon. Friend's suggestion has been noted.
Will the right hon. Gentleman also note the suggestion that Mr. Hughes should address the Constitutional Club on the taxation of land values?
I do not propose to make any suggestion on the subject.
Prudential Assurance Company, Limited (Administrative Expenses)
asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, whether the Prudential Assurance Company, Limited, received the sum of £401,263 16s. 7d. during 1915 from the Committee of Management of the six Prudential approved societies for administrative expenses; if so, whether the disbursement of this sum is subject to examination by the official auditors of approved societies; and whether, under existing arrangements, it is possible for any profits to accrue to this particular company in respect of unexpended balances of administrative expenses?
The Prudential Approved Societies have, under a provision in their rules, entered into an agreement with the Prudential Assurance Company, Limited, whereby the organisation of the Company is placed at the disposal of the societies for the purpose of their work under the Insurance Acts in return for an agreed payment on a per capita basis. The total amount payable for the year 1915 cannot be stated until the report of the audit of the societies' accounts for the year has been received. As regards the second part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to paragraph 21 of the second annual Report of the National Insurance Audit Department (Cd. 8210). As regards the third part, since the expenses incurred on behalf of the approved societies form part of the general expenditure of the company, no question of any unexpended balance of the payment made can arise. The agreed payment is less than the whole amount available per insured person for expenses of administration, the balance being at the disposal of the approved societies.
War Risks (Insurance by Trustees) Bill [Lords]
Read the first time; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 13.]
Bill Presented
Pacific Islands Regulations (Validation) Bill,—"to validate certain King's Regulations made under the Pacific Order in Council, 1893," presented by Mr. BONAR LAW: supported by Mr. Steel-Maitland and the Attorney-General; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 12.]
Orders of the Day
Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Bill
Order for Third Heading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
Air Services
4.0 P.M.
I would ask the attention of the House for a very few moments while I refer to a speech made by the hon. Member for Brentford (Mr. Joynson-Hicks) last Wednesday on the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill. The hon. Member made certain charges against officers in authority at Ramsgate. He referred to an air raid which had taken place on the previous Sunday, and his charges were that the officers had been guilty of neglect of duty, with the result that a certain number of lives, which otherwise would have been spared, had been lost. I will read just a sentence or two from the hon. Member's speech. He said: make, and unless the hon. Member was prepared to prove them he ought never to have risen in his place in the House of Commons and have made them. I will deal with two instances which the hon. Member brought before the House in order to prove his charges. He said that in February last the naval authorities had noticed that a Zeppelin was in the vicinity at 6.30 in the afternoon, and they never informed the police at Ramsgate of the danger until 7.30 or 7.37. The explanation of that is very simple. The Zeppelin was going in the other direction. When you actually warn people in a district towards which a Zeppelin is going, you do not trouble about the people living in the district from which the Zeppelin is going, and that is actually what happened in this occasion. He then quotes the case of last Sunday week, and he goes rather into details as to the times at which various observations were made and notices were given, but unless we are quite sure that the clocks by which his informants went and the clocks by which the authorities went agreed, it is not much use comparing those times; but I think I can say—in fact, I know I can say—that exactly six minutes after aircraft were observed over Dover, which is twenty miles away, aircraft were observed over Ramsgate, and as soon as it was certain that those aircraft were enemy aircraft the order to blow the alarm was given.
I believe the hon. Member's complaint is that when the aircrafts were observed over Dover warning was not given to the inhabitants of Ramsgate. It does not in the least follow because an enemy aircraft is over Dover that it is going over Ramsgate. Anybody who knows anything about this subject at all will agree that until you are quite certain that you are being attacked by enemy aircraft it is dangerous and useless to give notice of the approach of enemy aircraft. Unless you are certain that it is an enemy aircraft it is no use blowing a syren or giving any warning to the inhabitants. On this particular occasion, as soon as it was ascertained for certain that the aircraft approaching Ramsgate was an enemy aircraft, notice was given, and no time was wasted. I will take the hon. Member's own figures which he gave last Wednesday. He said that the aircraft were observed approaching Ramsgate at ten minutes past two and at fifteen minutes past two the attack was over. That does not give much time to give any notice. It was only five minutes from first to last, according to the hon. Member. I will make this concession, however, to him. I think his figures were not quite accurate. I should say that the raid lasted a few minutes longer than that. I think the raid lasted about nine minutes. The fact, however, is that at the very moment those aircraft were recognised as enemy aircraft warning was given. The hon. Member said that the officers in authority were at lunch, and that they had left no subordinates in charge. There is not the slightest foundation for that assertion. He had absolutely no right to say it; it is absolutely contrary to the fact. There are at the naval station at Ramsgate certain responsible officers whose duty it is to keep watch. At no time, from the very commencement of the War, has a responsible watch-keeping officer been off duty, and I repeat that to say the officers were away at lunch, neglecting their duty, is absolutely contrary to the fact. The hon. Member went on to say that if warning had been given lives which were unfortunately lost would have been spared.
Might have been spared.
"Might have been spared." I think that was a disgraceful statement to make. I think it was a disgraceful statement for the mayor of the town to make, as I understand he did make it, but I think it was more disgraceful for the hon. Member to come to the House of Commons, having regard to the publicity which a speech in the House of Commons receives, to make a statement of that kind. How does he know that there was any chance of sparing those lives if warning had been given at all? How does he know that those children would not have been in the street? From my observation I do not believe that follows in the least from the giving of a warning. Certainly on that particular occasion I was walking through the streets, and they were full of people. When they knew that German aeroplanes were coming over they all flocked into the streets. I am supported in that statement by a local newspaper. One of the local newspapers even went so far as to say that if it were arranged that a syren was to be blown as a warning, then a law should be passed to make people keep in their houses or to send them back into their houses. The fact is people do not fly into the cellars when they hear a warning; they come into the streets to see what is going on. The hon. Member, therefore, has no right whatever to say that these poor children would have been in their homes if this warning had been given, and even if they had been in their homes he has no right to say that their lives would have been spared. A certain number of people were killed, but a certain number of people owed their lives to the fact that they did not remain in their houses. In one case a bomb fell on a house half a minute after the people had left it. It is all pure chance. You cannot say that you will be saved by remaining in the house, or that you will be saved by going into the street.
I know how the hon. Member got his information. Naturally, after this raid, the officials and the public were rather excited, and the mayor of the town came up to London and tried to see someone in authority. He searched round for some time, but unfortunately it was a Sunday. Eventually he found the hon. Member at home, and he told him his story. The hon. Member, without taking any steps whatever to verify his story, came down to the House of Commons three days afterwards and made these absolutely unfounded attacks on the naval officers. I have nothing more to say. I have come down here this afternoon simply to tell the hon. Member that the statements which he made last Wednesday are absolutely untrue, and that he was entirely misinformed. I would suggest that it would have been better for the agitation with which he is connected—the agitation for a better Air Service—and I venture to suggest that it would have been better for the dignity of the House of Commons if he had taken some steps to verify the story instead of attacking on insufficient ground and insufficient evidence officers who are doing their duty exceedingly well.
The House will feel that the hon. and gallant Member has put his point of view very fairly. I do not think that he has been in the least degree unfair to myself. He quoted the speech I made with textual accuracy, and it remains for me either to say that I regret having made those statements, or to say, on the other hand, that the statements were amply justified, and on behalf of the people of the South-East Coast to demand an inquiry into their truth. It is not quite correct, as the hon. and gallant Member put it, that this was the first occasion I had seen the Mayor of Ramsgate, and that I took what he said without any investigation. I think it only right to state the reason the matter came into my hands. It will be remembered that the hon. Member for the Isle of Thanet (Lieut-Commander Norman Craig) is away on military duty in Scotland, and as they could not approach him, they approached myself. Prior to this raid I had the opportunity of seeing two of the mayors of adjoining towns. I have since had confirmatory letters from the mayor of another town in the district. I have taken, and I am taking, every possible means to inquire into the truth of these statements. I am not responsible for the times which I gave. I quoted from the Official Press Bureau Notice issued by the Admiralty. The raid came over Dover at 1.57 and over Ramsgate at 2.10. These are the official times. If they are wrong, clearly I am not responsible. I think my hon. and gallant Friend must accept these as the correct times, I told the House that no syren was blown until after the whole of the bombs had been dropped. I took every possible means to satisfy myself as to the correctness of that. I have here a report from the engineer of the Borough of Ramsgate that the syren, which is at the gasworks at Ramsgate, is only allowed to be blown, on the instruction of the local authority, by the orders of the naval and military authorities, and then they may blow it themselves. The engineer has given a certificate to the mayor—I have the original here—to this effect:
"I have to report that the instructions to sound the alarm syren were received over the telephone from the naval authorities at 2.15, and within ten seconds of the receipt of the order the foreman in charge of the works started to give the signal in accordance with the printed notice issued ill May last year."
We have it then that the syren was blown within ten seconds of the naval authorities sending the instruction, and, let it be remembered, the people at the works were not allowed to blow it before receiving those instructions. I have said the raid was over by the time the syren was blown, I am not going into the question whether notice is desirable or not, and whether people are safer in the streets or in their houses. Suffice it to say that the Field-Marshal in charge of the matter directs that notice should be given, and the public authorities have warned the people that it is desirable and safer to stay within their houses. It is no good my hon. and gallant Friend coming here and saying that the Field-Marshal and the authorities are wrong, and that it is better to go into the street than to stay indoors. We have to deal with the authorised orders given by those in authority, namely the Field-Marshal, and, before his time, the Home Office. My hon. and gallant Friend suggests that on one particular occasion when the notice was given an hour and seventeen minutes after the raid—the occasion when the Zeppelin came over at 6.20—the raid was in February—and the notice was not given until 7.37—my hon. and gallant Friend says that on that occasion the Zeppelin was going in an opposite direction. But if he will look at the orders issued by the Home Office on the 23rd February, 1916, he will see that the warnings are to be given when the aircraft is within thirty miles. On this occasion the aircraft was within thirty miles.
May I point out we have to give warnings to everybody. We warn the people in turn, and naturally we warn those first who are in danger.
The hon. and gallant Member makes a rather lame excuse. There is the fact that it took an hour and seventeen minutes to warn the East Coast towns in turn, and that poor Ramsgate was only then reached. May I remind him that telephones are in existence, and Ramsgate ought to and could have got the information by the use of them much earlier.
In this case the warning was not given by the naval authorities. It was given by the police. Again I would point out that the aircraft was going in the other direction.
The duty is on the naval and military authorities, who are the guardians of these people, to warn them whenever there are hostile aircraft within thirty miles. My hon. and gallant Friend says the naval authorities did not warn them at all, and that they got the information from the police. My complaint was that they did not warn them for an hour and seventeen minutes. Now I come to the actual occurrence of last Sunday week. The challenges thrown out are that I have made most unfair charges against the officers of the Aircraft Service. I had not intended to give names, but I assume that my hon. and gallant Friend has authority to speak for the officers?
No.
Then I think it is a great pity that he has no authority on behalf of the officers whose conduct I impugn. He challenges my statement, and it is a great pity he did not obtain that authority. It puts me in a very difficult position. I am prepared to-day to read to the House statements by councillors and burgesses of the borough of Ramsgate—signed statements which have been prepared by the town clerk of Ramsgate in view of the possibility of an inquiry, I am prepared to give their names. I am authorised to give the names of the people who have made these statements, and, in defending the statements I am making, it seems to me I must give the names of the officers concerned. There are three principal naval authorities at Ramsgate. I do not know whether my hon. and gallant Friend will object to my giving the names, but I propose to do so. They are Captain Tomlin, Lieut. Commander Dewar, and Lieut-Commander Boughey. There is, in my opinion, absolute proof first of all that firing was heard off Dover and the district long before the raid took place. I submit, knowing that Ramsgate is the centre of air raids—they have had numberless such raids, both Zeppelin and seaplane—I submit that as soon as firing was heard off the coast it was the duty of one or other of those responsible officers to be at the Navy Office in order to receive any telephonic communications that might arrive and to give any necessary orders. But what occurred?
My hon. Friend has mentioned the names of three officers. I may say that the last two—Lieut.-Commander Dewar and Lieut.-Commander Boughey— have absolutely no authority to give any warning at all. The only authority is with Captain Tomlin, who was there at the time.
Now we have arrived at a clear issue. The only person entitled to give the warning was Captain Tomlin, and we are told he was there at the time. But I am prepared to join issue with that observation of the hon. and gallant Member, and I will describe at what hour and how Captain Tomlin arrived at the office. I will leave the other two commanders out, and will briefly say, my statement being challenged, that I have ample proof that this officer did not arrive until after the raid had taken place. Captain Tomlin did not leave his house until after the bombs had fallen. He was away at his own house—Brent House. Here is the statement of Mr. Thomas Charles Benedict. It is a signed statement, taken down by the Town Clerk of Ramsgate. He says:
"At 1.45 I heard the sound of guns from Dover, and left my house, and reached the front before 2 o'clock."
On a point of Order. If there is going to be an inquiry into this matter, is it not undesirable that these charges should be brought before this House. The Government could settle this point by an announcement of their intentions on the matter.
I do not think that is a point of Order. I made the statement in this House. I have made many statements in my time, and I do not think I have even been attacked as to their correctness. In the matter of this air question, I have devoted the last three or four years of my life to securing an improvement of the Air Service. I have taken great care with regard to any statements I have made. I purposely refrained in the first place from introducing names, but I offered to give them to my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary for War privately, and now my hon. Friend comes down here and says that my statement is absolutely untrue and disgraceful.
I saw Captain Tomlin myself at the office before any bombs were dropped, and as the seaplanes were coming over the sea front.
I do not like to dispute the statement of my hon. and gallant Friend. I have known him so long. But I have here a written statement prepared and taken down by the Mayor and Town Clerk of Ramsgate. It has been put into my hands, and I am bound to use it. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Ramsgate cannot be here to place the views of his Constituents before the House. On their behalf, however, I ask my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary to give an inquiry into this matter. I have statements here that Captain Tomlin did not leave his house until after the bombs had been dropped, and that he only arrived at the office after the raid was over. I can give my hon. and gallant Friend a little further information, which is to the effect that after the raid took place this officer was driving about the town with two ladies in a motor car, showing them the damage, and very grave comments were made by the people of Ramsgate on his conduct. Here is a very clear and definite issue between my hon. and gallant Friend and the people of the town of Ramsgate. Obviously I was not there, and it is equally perfectly obvious that I cannot take the responsibility. But I do take the responsibility of reading these statements to the House. The Mayor and Town Clerk of Ramsgate were with me only three or four hours ago. I asked them distinctly, "May I depend on these statements?" and they replied, "You may depend on them, and if the Government grant an inquiry we are prepared to put this evidence before it." What more can be done in regard to it? Surely they are entitled to this inquiry. It is not a matter of a mere individual asking it.
I am here on behalf of the town council of Ramsgate asking for an inquiry into the matter of the defences which they have against these air raids from time to time. The demand cannot be put on one side merely because my hon. and gallant Friend says my statements are not correct. My hon. and gallant Friend, with great courtesy, told me three or four days ago that he intended to raise this matter in the House, and to state that my information was unfounded. Being aware that it was thus to be challenged, I wrote to the town clerk, and asked him to be very careful about the information he gave me, because it was going to be disputed. Here now, on behalf of the people of Ramsgate, I say to the right hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary for War, and I say it also to the representative of the Admiralty who may be here, the people of Ramsgate complain, and complain most bitterly, of the arrangements that were made—first for sounding the syren, and then of the absence of the officers who ought to be at the office, particularly Captain Tomlin. They authorise me to say that officer was not there. I regret I am unable to withdraw the charges I have made, and I can only ask my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary for War to grant this inquiry. Indeed, I believe everyone will agree that it is in the interests of the officers themselves that there should be an inquiry. When the inquiry takes place, if these men—if the mayor and town clerk have lied to me, then I say at once no one will be more pleased or more ready than I shall be to make the amende honorable to the gallant officer whose conduct is impugned. But until that inquiry is granted, I regret it is impossible for me to do otherwise than to lay these facts before the House, and to tell my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary that the responsibility is with him to investigate them.
It is unfortunate that we should have this discussion based upon charges against certain persons, because I am persuaded from observation of the facts referred to not only in connection with this last raid, but in connection with several previous raids, that the fault rests not with the personnel of the staff in charge of this particular important part of the coast, but rather with the whole system of watching and observation for aircraft now established on the Isle of Thanet. I have been an unfortunate spectator of at least three of these raids, and on one particular occasion I was able to check the times subsequently made known, and I have been irresistibly led to the conclusion that in the matter of swift flying machines of this description it is of the utmost importance that the observation posts should be properly situated, and that communcation of the latest information from those posts should be made direct to the aerodromes, so that remedial measures may at once be taken. I know of at least three observation posts on the coast of Thanet. One of them is on the Foreland. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] That is not a very important matter, because the enemy is aware of that fact. Everyone of those three points of observation on the coast line can only make observations, in certain directions. The Isle of Thanet, as everybody knows, has a contour, and the centre of the island is some 150 to 200 feet above sea level. With regard to the observation of flying machines that are approaching the coast from the sea—what might be called long distance spotting—I am perfectly certain that the proper place for the observation post is on the top of the rise, because, being on the top of that point, they command the whole sea. If there were some direct communication with the aerodrome, which is situated on the coast a little further on, it would be possible to furnish those who have to get into the air with information to enable them to deal with these raiders and with information as to the latest position of the machines that were approaching. Where it is only a question of seconds some steps might then be taken.
What are the facts? I do not wish to make public anything that is undesirable, but the fact which can be stated is that our observation posts have to communicate with the aerodrome by a roundabout method, which involves a waste of three or four minutes at least, and, it may be, of five or even ten minutes. Those minutes are of the most vital importance when you have machines travelling at the rate of seventy or eighty miles an hour. I would submit to the right hon. Gentleman who speaks for the Air Service here that it is not so much an inquiry into the personnel of our officers upon the coast that is wanted as an inquiry into the means of observation for spotting approaching aeroplanes. I hope that something in this direction will be done. I am not at all sure, if the right hon. Gentleman refers to communications which have already been made to the authorities upon this matter, that he will not find that certain definite points have been raised and discussed, that at this moment they are in the archives of the authorities, and that no notice whatever has been taken of them. I am not at liberty here and now to disclose names or details, but I put that point to the right hon. Gentleman, and ask him whether it is not a fact that the men who are engaged in this work upon the Isle of Thanet are not themselves anxious that they should be put in a better position both for making observations and for dealing with approaching aircraft.
There is one other point. The question of a syren being blown, is, after all, a very small point. Those of us who have seen the effects of air raids upon places like Ramsgate, Broadstairs, and Margate know perfectly well that if a bomb drops upon a building it does not matter nowadays if the building be a house or a more substantial building. That building, generally, is pretty well demolished, and death may occur inside just as much as outside it. That has been the case in all the raids in Thanet. The point is this, if you are going to have alarms given they should be given in ample time. That can be done when a Zeppelin is spotted a long way off, but it cannot be done in regard to rapidly approaching aeroplanes. I am quite sure, from observations I have made, that the point to be kept in mind is to have something in readiness that can climb quickly, that is effectively armed, and that can be put on the track of aircraft and given the direction from which aeroplanes are coming. I do not wish to inquire publicly as to what extent such means as anti-aircraft guns are provided there, but I do say that the most effective means in regard to this matter is to have direct communication between the most important points of observation that can be secured and the places from which aeroplanes leave in order to do their defensive work.
I will take this the first opportunity of answering the challenge of the right hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary of State for War with reference to my speech in this House last week. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up!"] The right hon. Gentleman made a rather passionate attack upon me. I suggest it would have been better to give a dignified and complete denial to my charges, instead of replying simply to the one dramatic note I struck on the question of our pilots being murdered rather than killed owing to their being asked to accomplish tasks which the machines were incapable of accomplishing. In these circumstances I should like to make the following statement: that if the officials who are responsible for deciding the type of the machines in which our officers are to take the air fail, either by ignorance, intrigue, or incompetence, to provide them with the best machines that this country can produce, they are guilty of a crime for which only a fastidious mind can fail to find a name. Since my speech in the House last week I have been inundated with letters from gentlemen anxious to support me with documentary and oral evidence. While it is not my present intention to mention names, I am perfectly prepared either to place the evidence I have here, which contains names in all cases, on the Table of this House, or to show it privately to any Member in the Lobby.
I propose to read to this House extracts from several letters received by the father of one of our gallant officers who has since, quite recently, met with one of the regrettable accidents I have referred to, in which he unfortunately lost his life, thus robbing the country of one of our most capable airmen. The accident in question is as follows: The officer was so dissatisfied with the machine, which had recently been repaired, that he would not allow any pilot under him to fly that machine unless he personally proved it. The proving cost him his life. The same officer before his death, writing from Dover to his father, said: feet in fifteen minutes is not a very suitable machine in which to start off across the Channel. The alternative is to come down, and be accused of being a coward, or push off across the Channel, and chance diving into the Channel, and thus causing a loss to this country of another valuable life. He also writes: by the immensely superior machines which the Germans are bringing against them. Not twenty miles from here there exists the finest machine the world has ever seen, far finer than the Fokker machine, finer than anything the Germans have produced, and yet we are content to order this aeronautical rubbish in thousands. We are prepared to order machines from the Royal Aircraft Factory, with engines unproved and untested, and order pilots into the air to meet their death. Those men who have only been wounded owe their lives to Providence, despite official negligence and incompetence, but the missing in all cases have been lost to this country on account either of dud machines or inefficient engines.
I will now deal with a few typical cases from the list I have here. I would not wish to shock the House with more cases than are absolutely necessary to prove conclusively my statement of last week. I will deal with one or two cases of men who have been killed in the recent fighting. If the Under-Secretary would like these men's names, the machines they were flying, and the place and date of their death, I shall be very pleased to assist him at his convenience. No. 1 is one of the first deaths in the War, though there have been many deaths owing to official negligence before the War. Side-slip owing to being sent off in a badly overloaded Bleriot machine. He suggested before leaving that an accident would occur. Accident occurred and the pilot died.
No. 2. Side-slip, nose dive; bombs blew up everyone on board machine. Similar to that which killed two pilots previously. Liable to uncontrollable spirals.
No. 3. Passenger was Lieutenant S. B. Same accident, but bombs did not go off. Both killed.
No. 6. Victim of engine failure. Lost at sea.
This question of engines is a question of life and death to our pilots, and if the mandarins are allowed to order any engines which they think fit to order when they are not competent to decide, and if our pilots have to be driven into the air with these engines their lives are being needlessly endangered.
Another case: Shot down by one of our own machine guns through the obstinacy and stupidity of a brigadier of our own. Two men killed.
Shot down near Dixmude. Machine overweighted. Should never have gone over the line.
Case 11. Machine caught fire in air with experimental R.F.A. engine. Bombs on board burst; pilot burnt to death in the air.
Case 14. Lost at sea flying home on leave.
It is a very pernicious habit in France, that where there is an old machine which they want to get back and which is no use for any further service and a pilot is going home on leave, if he likes to go home in it he can do so. It is a dangerous habit to endanger a valuable pilot's life to get an old crock of an aeroplane back to England and thus save transport.
No. 16. Machine known in the trade to be dangerous, collapsed in the air, killed the pilot.
No. 18. When landing nose dived; engine failure over sea.
No. 19. Bombs blew up when landing. Killed.
No. 20. Side-slip. Pupil without experience. Should not have been flying alone. Killed.
No. 24. Spiral dive 300 feet over the sea. Killed.
No. 30. Shot down, flying low, in bad weather. Died of injuries. Ordered out on bomb raid in the dark and rain.
No. 32. Drowned or killed in a side-slip through overloaded machine.
No. 34. Killed in a side-slip. Typical of this type of machine.
No. 35. Died of wounds received because of machine being unable to climb after coming down low to drop bombs. Engine weakness again.
No. 37. Both lost at sea. Engine failure presumed.
It will be generally accepted, when a machine is lost at sea, that the engine has failed.
No. 43. Killed. Reported death was caused by bombs exploding in the air.
No. 45. Killed landing in a morning fog after flying all night in a fruitless search for a Zeppelin. The usual official overloaded machine was unable to land slowly and turned over on its side.
No. 46. Machine hit by German shell while on water after being brought down by engine failure.
No. 47. Fell out of machine in the air, propeller broke and cut the tail screw. This was a most regrettable accident. It happened to a young man who had just succeeded in winning the Victoria Cross amid the cheers and admiration of this entire Empire—a most regrettable and most unnecessary accident. If the First Lord of the Admiralty would like full details, he shall have them.
No. 48. Brought down by engine failure. Killed on landing.
No. 49. Engine broke in the air, sideslip and dive.
No. 60. Killed in the dark after futile attempt to find Zeppelin. No light for landing.
At present men are driven up into the air on machines in which the engine and propeller are in front and the pilot is unable to see except on his extreme right or left. They are ordered out at night and have been told repeatedly to bring out their machines in a thick land fog. Someone runs up with a few buckets and puts petrol in and lights it, and that is the only light they have got. Recently a few searchlights, more dazzling than ever, have been produced. These men are driven up into the air, and quite recently, on the occasion of a Zeppelin raid, it was found that there were no arms. They must go up. They were driven into the air with this machine they could neither see nor shoot out of, and the armament in one case was a revolver, and in another a Winchester repeater rifle. What justification is there for driving our pilots in the air so armed and so equipped, and in such machines as they cannot see out of, simply to answer public clamour or to save the face of official folly?
No. 67. Brought down by engine failure. Killed. In this case the machine was totally unsuitable for the type of work. The men ought to have been sent out in a proper water-cooled engine.
No. 70. Killed in action while testing a type of machine condemned by the French six months ago.
No. 71. Killed owing to defective engine. Nose dive. Caught fire. Pilot burnt to death.
No. 76. Killed by his own bombs exploding after landing in dark, after searching for Zeppelin.
No. 80. Machine caught fire on landing. Pilot died.
No. 94. Killed in a side slip with worn-out machine.
No. 99. Killed passenger. Engine failure. Side-slip and dive.
No. 104. Two officers, observer, and pilot, both killed on photographic duty because they were hopelessly outclassed by the enemy machine. They had no fighting machine with them to protect them on that work.
I ask the House to imagine a pilot in a groggy old machine, tottering in the air over the enemy's lines, knowing he has only about 72 miles an hour in hand, nothing but gadgets all round him which these official experts love to load on our otherwise efficient machines. He has no guns as the Germans have guns behind them and in front of them, and he sees an enemy aeroplane which has two guns, one fitted for firing dead ahead through the propeller and one dead astern, and which can fly not 72 miles an hour but perhaps 110 or 120. You feel this machine circling round you, diving and shooting up and rising above you and you are helpless as a duck, absolutely ready to be shot down. When you think that these men have proved themselves to be not only the most able but the bravest airmen in the world, when you think they are driven into the air to be slain like that, it is difficult to find a better word than the one I chose.
5.0 P.M.
I do not want to exhaust the House, but I have 105 cases of missing officers. All of these men, had we had decently engined machines, would either be in this country or fighting our battles in the air to-day, instead of which they are suffering the indignity, which I understand in some cases is even worse than death, to which prisoners of war in Germany are treated. Here is one ease. Two of the most able officers in the Service were sent up on a long reconnaissance in an old machine capable of doing forty-five miles an hour with a fair wind behind it. One officer said before he left that although he could get there he would never get back, and his words proved true. The machine never returned. The cases of wounded are almost too numerous to mention. Here is one in October. A machine was flying for photographic purposes over the enemy's lines and both pilot and passenger were shot. Hon. Members have read something of that case. Although the pilot was shot, the observer managed to struggle into his position and landed the machine within our lines. For the past two years people who really understand, but cannot obtain a hearing, have been advocating that no machine should fly under any circumstances whatsoever unless it is fitted with dual control. There is absolutely no reason why this should not be the case. It means that if a machine is flying over enemy country and the pilot is shot, the observer can take charge. Any man who has flown for ten minutes in a dual control machine can bring it back to earth, perhaps with a little bit of a crash, but he can guide it back again. It means that not only will valuable information be saved and brought to our generals, but the life, perhaps of a pilot and certainly of the observer, and the machine itself might be saved from total loss. I should like any hon. Member to picture himself in a machine absolutely alone, walled in by wires, with a pilot somewhere behind. He hears a gasp and a cry and turns round and sees that his pilot is dead. He is sitting there helpless at 11,000 feet, the machine diving and sheering in all directions, and knows that the moment will very soon come when she will get into a nose dive and he will crash 11,000 feet and be smashed to pieces simply because of the foolish folly of these officials who do not understand and will not be taught that dual control in such a machine would have saved that man's life. I should like to have on the floor of the House one of these men who have been through one of these terrible death dives to tell right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench what it feels like. No time must be wasted. However important the Debates in this House may be, our national existence depends on the issue of this subject, if not to-day, in the days to come. I would like to suggest that if this House does not take that view to day, even to-night some of our gallant officers may be slaughtered, if the Zeppelins choose to visit this city or this country. All around London are these cursed old crocky machines, these badly-lighted or un-lighted aerodromes, and these heroes sitting waiting to be driven up into the air to save the face of those who are set in authority over them, and who have failed them every time. I would like to suggest that no time should be wasted, and that immediate inquiry be made into this charge, which I have answered, I trust, to the satisfaction of the House. If I have failed, I will ask you, Mr. Speaker, to give me an early opportunity for making good such failure. It is indeed difficult to speak on this question without a certain amount of perhaps unnecessary emotion, as it may seem to this House. I would like to suggest, finally, that it is extremely difficult, even in law, to draw a hard-and-fast line between murder and manslaughter, or between manslaughter and an accident caused by criminal negligence. When this negligence is caused by the official folly of those in high places, coupled with entire ignorance of the technics which in this case can alone preserve human life, official folly becomes at any rate criminal negligence. When the death of a man ensues, the line between such official folly and murder is purely a matter for a man's conscience.
I do not often trouble the House with any remarks, but I feel very strongly on this question, that the Government after two years of war have not made the efforts which are essential to meet the attacks of Zeppelins around our coasts and in these islands. We were told before the War, on the opinion of our military experts, that the Zeppelin was an unwieldy and unmanageable machine, that it was an impracticable fighter, that it would never cross the North Sea and that if it did cross the North Sea it would be such a splendid target for our anti-aircraft guns that it would never go back again. So much for military expert opinion. We have proved the fallacy of that. We were told by the then First Lord of the Admiralty that if the Zeppelins did come, they would be met by such a host of hornets that they would not have a chance of escape. So much for official statements. We know on the contrary that the Zeppelins are a very real menace to our coasts, and some of us who live on the East Coast have had cause and will have cause to remember as long as we live the effect of Zeppelin raids. I have been told by some of my Friends in this House who live, happily on the West Coast, and in secure regions, that there is no occasion for the people of this country to get into a panic, that it was only a mere question of war, that these raids will not win the great conflict in which we are engaged, and that only a relatively few people are going to be injured or killed, and that we must bear this infirmity bravely. We are desirous of bearing it bravely, and we will bear it bravely if we feel that the authorities will do what they can to help us to meet what can be met and that is this evil.
I have had a little experience in approaching the authorities and trying to move them, but I must say that I have almost hopelessly failed to make any impression upon them. We are bandied about from one Department to another, first to the Army authorities and then to the Naval authorities, who are blaming each other, and, as a result, we cannot get any further forward in our efforts on behalf of the defences of our country. We are proud of the Fleet that defends us, and I believe that it is an impossibility for the enemy to attack our shores, but we do not know the possibilities there are in the air. We are not as completely equipped in that direction as we are with respect to our Fleet. Up to a year ago there was practically no defence whatever on the East Coast. In my opinion—it may be only an opinion, because I am not an expert—I do not think that the bombardment of Scarborough would ever have been effected, or that it would have been so dangerously damaging to the people, had there been a single gun at Scarborough Castle to face those attackers who came in the fog. One gun there would have been sufficient to have, saved the town and the district. I remember a year ago that there was a certain raid on an East Coast town which did very much greater damage than the Press Censor ever allowed to be published. When that raid took place I was within 350 or 300 yards of the dropping bombs. I was near enough to hear the cries and shrieks of the people, and I never want to be in such proximity again. I am not a representative of Hull, but I am a resident of Hull, and I thought it my duty to do everything I could to meet this difficulty. I wrote to the First Lord of the Admiralty, and got the usual reply, that it would have attention. I was not satisfied with that reply and I put a question down in the House. That question was not put on the Paper, but my right hon. Friend the Secretary to the Admiralty (Dr. Macnamara) saw me, and very kindly said, "My dear fellow, you do not "want to give any information to our opponents, the Germans. You do not want to do anything to damage your country. The question that you have put down is not a wise one to put in the House. I will make better arrangements for you, and I will arrange that you can call at the Admiralty and see those who are responsible for the Air Service on the Fast Coast." I am thankful to say that I did so at the request of the right hon. Gentleman.
I asked the reason why there had been no attempt whatever to defend the coast from air raids. The answer I got was, "Well, it was not in our Department then." It had been a year in the hands of the Army authorities, who had done nothing. Of course, the naval authorities were not to blame. I said, "What about the future?" They replied, "In respect to the future we intend to make the Air Service on the East Coast efficient. We intend to provide your large towns and cities with aircraft guns." I went so far as to discuss with them some suitable places for aerodromes in the vicinity of one large centre of industry, possibly the largest on the East Coast. From that time we lived somewhat in a state of security. We thought that some effort was being made on our behalf, and we had good reason to believe that. We did not inquire too closely into the matter, but we found that a week or two afterwards one or two motor aircraft guns were paraded through the streets of the city. We naturally imagined that they were for our defence, and the people were very delighted. But we heard no more. The matter was in the hands of the Admiralty for nine months, and at the end of that time in the same East Coast city there was another raid of a very terrible character. I only wish those of my Friends who live in secure places and who can look at this question philosophically could have an experience similar to what we had on that occasion. It is all very well to be brave when you have the power to reply. It is all very well if a man feels that he can hit back. Then his courage rises, but when you feel you are up against a power and you have no reply to it, the bravest hearts are liable to quail. At all events, I am free to confess that when I stood on my doorstep and saw bombs dropping two hundred yards away, and thought that perhaps the next would drop on my head, and I had my wife and family near me, I felt that I could have fled anywhere and hid in any corner to be safe. This is not an isolated experience. It has been the experience of every man under similar conditions. There was a man who was on the flat roof of one of the hotels and a bomb dropped within 30 yards. That man was a soldier, and he said, "I have been in the trenches in France. I have been under the thickest shell fire, but I never felt so hopelessly helpless and so weak as I felt when this shell dropped near to me and I had no power of reply." Therefore, when hon. Members rise to speak I would just ask them not to think that we are cowards. Let me tell you that the men on the East Coast, from Newcastle to Essex, and down to the South, are as brave as you on the West Coast, and we will stand our corner.
When I was speaking about the inadequacy of our defences I forgot one thing. After my first interview with the Admiralty twelve months ago, and after they had paraded these guns through the town, they did another thing. It was not the Admiralty, but the military who did it.
What became of the guns?
They were there for two or three days, and were then taken to another place for a similar purpose. Within a few days of the promise that I received from the Admiralty—I am not going to charge the Admiralty with this, because they had nothing to do with it— on one of the large engineering works in our city a gun—a solitary gun—was fixed, and a military guard was mounted by day and night over that gun. We all thought that that was part of the equipment to protect our city, but we found afterwards that it was only a dummy gun.
Oh, oh!
Quite true.
It is no exaggeration. I will stake my reputation on it. We had 300 people at a private meeting, and we had two generals present, and I told them exactly the same thing. I said, "If I am mistaken, I will apologise." Immediately the Chief Constable jumped up, and said, "There is no occasion for apologising. It was a military performance." Why was that done?
Bluff.
It was not done for a joke. I do not think that in a time of war even the most frivolous would indulge in such a joke. Was it done in order to convey to the Germans the idea that we were fortified? It might be, although I think that is a very far-fetched idea. I think it was done to allay the fears, the suspicions, and the anxieties of the people. If it was done for that purpose, such deception was unworthy of our military authorities, and unworthy of any General Staff which allowed it to be done.
To save the Government's face.
I am pleased to say that during the past two or three weeks some efforts have been made to improve matters. We had an interview with Lord French, and he said, "I have not been responsible for twenty months for the defences of this country, but now I shall do my best both for London and other places." I am pleased to say that in that place some defence is being made, and I trust it will be a complete defence. I do believe that if you have efficient guns and aeroplanes you would prevent the Zeppelins doing what they did on the last occasion they were there—that was, to stop their machines until they found their bearings exactly over the place where they were nine months ago, and to drop three bombs within twenty feet of each other. There was a design, a method in their operation, and if our East Coast towns are left defenceless and they get to know this, as they will get to know it, if they come once or twice and have no reception, it means the blotting out of some of those places. If we are to be blotted out, then let it be after we have made adequate preparation, and after a good fight—after the authorities have shown that they have done their best to make up for the neglect which we have had in the past. We have been told with respect to the Press censorship that our statements are incorrect. The Under-Secretary of State for War told the right hon. Member for East Hull (Mr. Ferens), when he asked a question the other day, "I cannot realise that your statement is quite correct. I have got some official statement"; while the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ferens) had in his pocket the coroner's statement at that time showing how many had been killed, and the number was far in excess of what had been stated under the Press censorship. We are told not to name the places. None of us want to name the places. But on that occasion, three months ago, it was said that a certain North-East Coast town was bombed, and then there was a German naval communication which said that the naval base of Hull had been successfully bombed. What is the use of a censorship like that keeping from our own people what we are told when it comes from Germany? I am sorry if I have spoken with some heat, but I feel very strongly on this matter.
Another point to which I would allude is the question of lights on rails. On the two occasions when the Zeppelins came to the Nort-East port they followed the railway line right away to the city. There is no mistaking that; yet we have been urging the authorities to do what they ought to do without our asking them—to make the railway companies who are under their control put out their lights. I was travelling with an engineer of one of the railway companies last night. He said, "This is a more difficult matter than you imagine. In the first place, all the lights from the signals are perfectly horizontal and therefore they are not seen from above." I said, "That can be easily demonstrated by sending aeroplanes over the line, and it can be very easily found out whether these lights can be seen or not. If these lights cannot be seen in the air, why then darken the streets of our towns and cities, which are lighted by horizontal lights like the railways?" Another reason given why these lights cannot be put out is that most of them are lighted by paraffin, and that they are lighted only once a fortnight. Possibly they burn both night and day, and it would take time to go and put them out. But in the large towns and cities we get an alarm of air raids, which comes sometimes two or three or four hours before the raid. That gives an opportunity for the trains to be stopped, and they are all stopped. If the trains are all stopped there is no reason why the signal lights should not be put out. The signal boxes are at the most within a mile or two from where the trains stop, and if they have to go once a fortnight to light and trim these lamps, why could not the railway companies on the same principle put these lights out? There is no doubt that there are large numbers of signal lights in the large towns, and these, with the lighting buoys and revolving lights on our rivers, are a great and unerring guide to the Zeppelins, and we have a right to ask that this shall stop.
We have Lord French's assurance that he will do his best. We have the assurance of the right hon. Gentleman in answer to a question that he was sure this matter would be done if it were at all possible, and yet only a week ago last Sunday we were up six hours with a scare, and all the signals were going just the same as they had been going before. There is no use making these promises to us, and then not carrying them out. I would rather that they would say, "We are not going to do it." When we get these promises that things will be done and they are not done the people think that their representatives are absolutely incapable. The First Lord of the Admiralty, in his speech a fortnight ago, dealt with one matter of importance as affecting the air offence of the East Coast. Speaking of the building of lighter-than-air machines in order to meet the attacks of Zeppelins, he said: or reason, which can be won by any candidate who is prepared to give his support to a more efficient Government than the one that exists at the present time.
Before the Debate on the Air Service closes I wish to say a few words with a perfectly definite meaning—that is, to advocate a large aeroplane fleet, far larger than anything yet held in contemplation by the Government, and also to put forward a few arguments rather in opposition to the views of the speaker who has just sat down (Sir A. Gelder), who advocates the building of lighter-than-air machines.
May I explain that I did not refer to the question of lighter-than-air machines by way of argument that they should be built? I was only referring to the statement of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Balfour), to the effect that we could not build the necessary sheds. I have no view on the matter of the building of lighter-than-air machines.
I am very glad to hear that explanation, because I listened to the speech of the hon. Member with great attention, and the argument that he put forward seemed to imply that the Government should build these lighter-than-air machines. But, before setting forward definitely what I consider a better plan, I may advance briefly to the House one or two arguments in opposition to the view which seems to be held by the First Lord of the Admiralty, and which, I believe, is held by a great number in high positions in the Admiralty. It seems an attractive argument to say now that the Zeppelins have shown themselves more efficient and more formidable, and that we are helpless in comparison by being unprovided with craft of that type, even now at this hour we should endeavour to make up our leeway, to make up for lost time, and to outrival the Germans in the construction of Zeppelins.
Unfortunately one cannot improvise Zeppelins, and we would immediately place ourselves in a condition of inferiority by the very fact that we were imitating the Germans in a field in which they have shown exceptional genius and exceptional organising power, and in which they have now some years of experience. We have already made one or two efforts to introduce lighter-than-air machines into this country, and they have all been failures. We bought a machine from France, paid a considerable sum for it; it was duly installed in its shed, and that was the beginning and end of its history. A British machine was also built in one of the Government factories, and it broke into two parts the very moment that it was brought out in order to test its efficiency. Those are not encouraging examples, and it would be simply hopeless at this stage in the midst of this War for this country to set up a rivalry against Germany in the building of Zeppelins.
One great advantage that the Germans already possess is that they have all this great work of Zeppelin construction superintended by Count Zeppelin himself, a man not only of great mechanical genius but a man who has had the hardihood and perseverance actually to work as a workman in the different branches of construction so as to make himself perfectly familiar with every detail of the technique. Whom in this country would you put in a supreme position corresponding to his? Some man with a big name, perhaps with a big title, perhaps totally inefficient, but whose blunders and shortcomings of every description would be covered up by some representative Member in this House. Therefore I say that policy, however attractive, and by whatever arguments it may be put forward, should be definitely abandoned. I say it with the more conviction because I believe that we have in our hands a stronger instrument, the aeroplane, and that in aeroplane output, as this service becomes developed, we are beginning to recognise that just as in sea warfare there are many ships of many types which are performing definite duties, so in the Air Service there will be a number of aeroplanes of very different types, from the light scouting machine up to the heavy fighting machine corresponding to our "Dreadnoughts." This is a branch in which this country and France not only have the initial advantage over Germany, but have, to a great extent, maintained that superiority, and in which, quite apart from the efficiency of the aircraft itself, I think it will be generally conceded, that the pilots both of France and England are individually and on the average superior to those of Germany. I believe, therefore, that the Zeppelin menace can be completely met by the construction of suitable aeroplanes, and I will give one or two arguments which will bear that out. In the first place, the aeroplane can rise more quickly than the Zeppelin, that is to say, an aeroplane built for that express purpose. Secondly, an aeroplane can move faster than the Zeppelin—I will not say every aeroplane, but it is within our power to build aeroplanes whose speed would exceed that of the greatest Zeppelin.
The aeroplane presents a far less surface as a target, while it is in every way more manageable, more easy to turn, and can be moved very easily and very quickly. For the money which is required to build one Zeppelin a great number of high-power aeroplanes could be built so that the force we would have in those aeroplanes would far more than counterbalance the advantages of the Zeppelins. But the conditions, the conditions necessary, do not at present exist, partly because the Air Service is subject to two controls, and the problem has not been sufficiently studied of regarding the Air Service as a totally distinct service, without necessarily interfering with the subsidiary part of the Admiralty and of the Army in regard to an Air Service; that is to say, even if a separate Department were created, with separate construction, separate control, separate responsibility, regarding this as a purely separate arm for independent purposes, it would still be necessary as a subsidiary part of the Navy and Army. Therefore, the proposal I now make is not to take the Air Service entirely out of the Army and Navy, but rather to develop even more strongly those branches which are necessary to those particular Services; but, independent of them altogether, to form a new arm with a definite task in view, with a definite objective, with a definite plan, a definite course of action, and, in order to make those as distinct as possible, I will endeavour to particularise before I sit down, so as to offer a subject for discussion and for study. I would say that whereas even up to the present the Air Service, regarded as an offensive arm, is scarcely realised in the various sporadic raids which have been made, yet those sporadic raids correspond more to skirmishing attacks which may be useful in feeling the strength of the enemy, but are useless for the main objective, that of driving a way through the opposing force, and so shattering it as to make it the turning point in the whole course of the campaign.
The raids by aeroplane in various parts of the world, from Metz to Schleswig-Holstein, or the shores of Belgium, to destroy Zeppelin sheds, and so forth, should be regarded as valuable rather by way of ascertaining what are the powers of the aeroplane than as showing results which should be viewed as the high-water mark attained, or that they should be continued on those lines—that is to say, instead of being content with a raid of twenty or thirty or even fifty aeroplanes upon some vulnerable base of the German's, we should rather set out to build 10,000 aeroplanes, or, if that number be found insufficient for the purpose, 20,000, and these should be used as the deciding factor in the War. No matter what objections the Government may put forward with regard to material, to finding pilots, to administration, and so forth, if you put a competent man at the head of the Department specially created for that purpose, all these objections will be found to vanish. Some can be removed, some analysed, and the mere red tape administration could be borne down by sheer force of character. Once you have this fleet of 10,000 or 20,000 aeroplanes you would be masters of the situation. The enemy would not be able to take the offensive, and you would be stronger, and become masters of the air, just as after Trafalgar this country became mistress of the sea. We would be in a position to prevent the enemy's attacks and menaces to this country, and we should be able to attack the enemy's vulnerable points. Such an arm would be able absolutely to accomplish every work set it. It would have a definite objective to be achieved on a regular plan, finishing one work before proceeding to another. That is the plan which I throw forward without working it out in detail, and I beg the Members of the Government to consider it very seriously, and not merely to reject it in a sort of indifferent way by putting up difficulties of administration, difficulties of control, or by the argument of interfering with what is at present being done by the Army or by the Navy. We must rise to a conception which few Members of this House have yet arrived at, and not many in the country, and perhaps none whatever on that bench so far, that this arm could be made a great and decisive factor in this War, and that any of the obstacles that stand in the way and now impede their action should be removed, and once they are removed, and once—what I believe to be the most difficult step of all—the House makes up its own mind that these difficulties can be removed, I believe that we will be able to realise this object and secure the accomplishment of its purpose.
Those who live within a limited distance of the East Coast have had a good deal of experience of these air raids, and in connection with them I wish to call the attention to one point of the War Office, or the local authorities, in giving notice when these air raids are expected. The local authorities, as my right hon. Friend is aware, after the raid of two months ago, were to be notified in all the industrial counties that the murderers were on their way. Yet, notwithstanding these warnings, the engine shed and the cleaning shed of the railway in my district were kept lighted, and their signals were also kept going. The local authority put out their lights, but the railway company not only refused to put out their signal lights but they kept the lights of the engine and cleaning sheds going. Many collieries have thousands of lights burning at night, and no notification was given, until recently, when Zeppelins were coming. An alteration when my Constituency would like to see introduced is this, that when the local authorities turn down their lights the railway companies in their works should do the same during the time the raid is in progress. It would be very easy and not very costly to use electric lamps for the signals, which are only a small candle-power. Collieries use electric lights on a very large scale, some of them having as many as 5,000 lamps going, and it is necessary that lights should be turned out on railways as in other places when warning is given of the raiders approaching.
I ask my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary for War to see that the War Office continues the policy of not disclosing to the Germans where their airships have reached. They have recently stated in a German communiqué that the Zeppelins visited thirty large cities in this country, whereas it is apparent that these murderers had no idea of the way they were going. Instead of being near those cities, they were nearly 100 miles away from the places they had stated they had visited. They even said that they had destroyed armament works, thus proving that they had no idea where they were. If all lights were turned out, the enemy would be able to do very little serious damage; in fact, in my district, a shepherd tending some sheep carried his lantern, and a bomb was dropped, though it did not hit him. This incident showed that the appearance of a light is a guide and perhaps the only clue which enables the Zeppelin crews to throw their bombs.
Having said that, I wish to ask my right hon. Friend to give the House an assurance, a positive assurance, that no man is to be put on any machine which in the opinion of the naval and military responsible officers is not fit for service. Can the hon. Gentleman give the House positive assurance that no man, owing to the exigencies of the Service, will be sent up to fly a machine which will be so dangerous as to constitute what the hon. Member for Hertfordshire has said is "technical murder? If you increase an industry like the aeroplane industry it is, of course, unavoidable that there should be loss of life in the experimental stage, and, indeed, at the beginning of aeroplanes men were sent up on machines which have since, by the improvements effected, been practically condemned.
May I suggest that the question should be that there should be assurances that officers are not being sent up in machines to accomplish a duty which the machine is totally unable to accomplish?
I think that puts the question better than I put it. My right hon. Friend would, of course, appreciate the point. I think it is quite reasonable to consider that the War Office and the Admiralty may have machines which on the whole are good machines, but that the Germans may from time to time have a machine which is better, since, according to the Under-Secretary of State, the whole position is continually altering and that sometimes we have the ascendancy and sometimes the Germans have it. What we want is an assurance to the House that there shall be indiscriminate scrapping if you have a machine which is dangerous, and that you do not send up any man, as the hon. Member for East Herts has said, in those machines when the lives of the men are in danger. I think the House ought not to overlook the fact that the Germans have lost a great number of Zeppelins, which carry from twenty to thirty men, and when you are dealing with experimental machines that occurs. We, in this country, are in the position of having to deal with the aeroplane service, and in the progress of development we have had, unhappily, loss of life.
May I suggest that while Zeppelins have raided this country on many occasions, we have never raided Germany with a lighter-than-air machine.
That may be, but after all the main point is whether we have had the ascendancy in the past or not. The Under-Secretary told us that he was satisfied we had the ascendancy at one time and then we lost it. What the position to-day may be I do not know. Friends coming from the front tell us that we at times had the ascendancy, and at other times Germany, and that on the whole we have not been very far behind.
May I suggest that in speaking of the ascendancy of England we also include France, which is twice as efficient and has twice as many machines, and Russia, which is almost as great; and we also include Belgium.
The hon. Member has made his speech.
I spent some time at a flying school in connection with an invention which a naval officer had introduced. I found the greatest possible activity, and I was rather surprised to find that the War Office had done anything in the matter of aeroplanes, and that they were carrying on very extensive works. I think no one will deny that the French have a more facile brain for invention than we have. The hon. Member for East Herts will have performed a public service if his remarks bring home to the War Office the fact, if it be a fact, that we are not supplying our airmen with good machines, and sending our men to fight the enemy with machines that ought to be scrapped on account of any parsimony, or because the War Office do not want to spend money on aeroplanes. I am sure the House of Commons is willing to vote any money to enable those gallant men to be properly equipped in fighting their battles. I do not know what the losses have been in the flying corps or whether they were greater than amongst the men in the trenches. Those men in the trenches have been fighting without machine guns and without proper weapons to put them on equal terms with the enemy, and the same thing, I think, has probably happened with the airmen. I only hope that the effect of the speech and of what has transpired in the House will waken the Admiralty and the War Office to doing all that can be done to allay public anxiety that our men are being sent into the air with improper machines. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman the House of Commons will vote any money required to scrap all machines which in the opinion of his advisers ought not to be used.
That ought to satisfy him!
I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he can give us the assurance that no airman is allowed to fly on a machine which is not fit to go into the air, and that, I think, would allay a good deal of anxiety in the House and outside.
I rise to take part in this Debate in order to call further attention to the ineffectiveness of our air defences, and at the same, time to refer to "one of the more recent Kentish air raids," to which the notice of the House was called by my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary for War some two or three weeks ago. I regret I was not present in the House when my right hon. Friend felt it incumbent upon him to make the statement he did in connection with that particular raid, and that, therefore, my answer has been so long delayed. The failure of my many efforts to speak has, at any rate, brought its own compensation, because I have had the privilege of listening during the last two or three weeks to, I think, very nearly every speech which has been made in the House. Only a fortnight ago I listened with intense interest—as, indeed, did we all who were privileged to listen to him— to the inspiriting and patriotic speech of the hon. and gallant Member for East Clare (Captain W. Redmond). He told us of the "unrivalled qualities" and "undaunted spirit" of our soldiers at the front, and he forcibly reminded us that all that they wished us at home and in Parliament to do was to "stop wrangling" here in the House of Commons, and to send out to them there in the trenches the very best that we could obtain, both in men and in material. There is but one lesson to learn from this "living message" from the front, and that is that if the Government fail in either of those respects it is the bounden duty of Parliament to remind them of it, and, if I may be allowed to use a Canadian expression, to see that they get on with it. In this connection may I recall the opinion of a famous Victorian statesman who used these words: "The Administration which tries to stifle honest criticism is but the architect of its own misfortunes."
My right hon. Friend says that "he objects to hon. Members attacking the War Office by telling them to wake up." I think he used those words in the House only last week, and in answer to the hon. Member for Brentford he told us again only last week that he resented the imputation that the War Office is not thoroughly doing its duty in regard to our air defences. All I can say is that as a profession of faith that may sound all very well, but when the country is fully aware, as I maintain it is, that the War Office has not been doing its duty, which we know it has not, and never has done, with regard to our air defences, then I say we are at least entitled to be sceptical as to my right hon. Friend's assurances. My right hon. Friend certainly gives his own case away when in the same breath he goes on to chide my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford for calling attention to the inadequacy of our preparations in connection with the raid which took place in East Kent. I think, about a month ago. What is it he really tells my hon. Friend? He said, with regard to this raid last month, and these are his own words, "That then none of our arrangements were anything like so complete as they are at present." If it is possible to make them so much more complete within the short space of seven weeks, why is it they were not made complete before?
Because the War Office had not assumed responsibility for this Service.
6.0 P.M.
So far as that is concerned all I can say is that there can be no doubt that our present unreadiness in air defence is very largely due to the fact that we in this House have permitted the War Office to neglect their duties behind the screen of comforting assurances. We have had too many of these delusions. I will not weary the House by requoting from some of the speeches which have been made from the Front Bench opposite, but in view of the freedom with which enemy aircraft now come to these shores, I think I am still entitled to ask again a question which I have asked before, namely, what has become of those very remarkable antiaircraft guns which fired with such remarkable accuracy, and which were promised by the former Secretary of State for War? Why should we not know also where is that very formidable "swarm of hornets," which was mentioned just now, I think, from the benches opposite, and which was promised last year or the year before by the then First Lord of the Admiralty, who told us that they would certainly go up to defend us if any Zeppelins were foolhardy enough to come near our coasts. What becomes of our faith in the veracity of responsible Ministers when we find that these wonderful weapons were not forthcoming when they were most, wanted? There is no getting away from the fact that the country has been misled. In my opinion we have had too much of the present War Office policy of concealment and make-believe. Our Air Services—I am very sorry to say it, but it is what I honestly believe—have been shockingly neglected, and I see no reason, certainly no military reason, why the Government should not frankly admit it. Lord Montagu only last week, in another place, used these ominous words:
"It cannot be denied that the general position of our Air Services is thoroughly unsatisfactory."
Thoroughly unsatisfactory! How can we reconcile this statement made on the 19th of this month with my right hon. Friend's almost simultaneous utterances that the Government is fully alive to the necessities of our Air Services? The statements do not tally. The hon. Member for Brentford told us last week something at any rate of what took place during another of the more recent East Kent raids. We know, in spite of the denial that we had this afternoon, that on that occasion things were not really satisfactory. We have also heard not only from the hon. Member for East Hertfordshire but from one of our most eminent military authorities—I am sure I may quote him with the consent of the House—Mr. Spenser Wilkinson, of the very large number of deaths of some of our most distinguished air men—deaths due in many cases, as he says, "to ignorance mistakenly set in authority." I do not wish to refer to any details which might be misconstrued into an undesirable publication of valuable secrets, but it is ridiculous to suppose that our want of preparation, our indecision, and our lack of forethought are not all throughly well-known in Berlin. For years past everything of importance in connection with our Air Services—I am speaking from experience, and not merely from hearsay—has been carefully noted in Germany.
Give us your experience.
Before the War I had many personal friends among German officers, and among them some who were officers of Zeppelin airships. We may be quite sure that the German General Staff is also thoroughly acquainted with all our culpable delays in battling with the dangers of air raids. They have had the very fullest corroboration of this information lately in the safe return of the various Zeppelins which have come over these shores. With regard to these particular Zeppelin raids, I should like to know if anything has been done to give fresh instructions to our post offices, so that telegrams may be sent after eight o'clock at night in the event of there being any kind of aircraft over our towns and villages. During a recent air raid there happened to be a Zeppelin over a village in Shropshire. There was living in the village a notable person who wished to give warning to a neighbouring town, but when he went to the post office he was told that it was absolutely impossible to do so because the post office had to be shut at eight o'clock. I should like to read a statement given to this House six months before the War by the then First Lord of the Admiralty. He told us that he considered the airship provision was sufficient under the then circumstances for our safety. This provision, he said, was for one large rigid and three small non-rigid ships. The large rigid ship was a Zeppelin of the latest type, and then there was a second Astra Torres ship in addition. Is the ship to which the Secretary to the Admiralty referred the other day one of these Astra Torres ships or merely one of the smaller omnibuses or "Blymphs," as I believe they are called, which from time to time travel over London?
We are told that the best defence against Zeppelins is to be found in similar ships travelling to German fortresses, German harbours, and German Zeppelin factories. Very well. Why have we not built them? Because the Government have wobbled first to one way of thinking and then to another. We all know what has happened with regard to building our Zeppelins. I believe that this is giving; away no secret of any kind. It was mentioned in another place only a fortnight ago. The Government asked an influential Committee to report upon the matter. The Committee decided that, we ought to build Zeppelins, and, as Lord Beresford told us in another place, we built a Zeppelin. It took two-years to build, but it was born with a curvature of the spine, and before it was launched it had broken its back. Then what happened? The Government, which is doing everything possible for our Air Services, lost its nerve, and abandoned its Zeppelin policy. To make a long story-short, when war broke out fresh counsels prevailed, and Zeppelin work was again put in hand. Then in January, I think it was, it was again retarded and another six months was lost before it was again resuscitated. That was last July. Now we are told that one of the main obstacles, if not the main obstacle, to the provision of airships is the difficulty in obtaining, sheds. As an hon. Member opposite said, "Why on earth have we not built the sheds before?" Why is it that now after nineteen months of war we are only beginning to obtain tenders for sheds, which, will not be finished for another nine months? There can be no doubt that we want a capable and permanent administration with one main control. By all means let us leave the Navy with its own particular and special wing under its own orders. But we shall never have full efficiency in every branch of our Air Services, without unity. Business methods are not. sufficient if they are only to be used in regard to production.
It is all very well for the Government, to say that the time is not ripe for this, development. Why do they always try— I cannot understand why it is—to shelter themselves behind the ridiculous assumption that the science of aeronautics is in. its infancy? It is in nothing of the kind. It was eight or ten years ago when the "Daily Mail" warned us of the air danger. I hold no brief for the "Daily Mail." It was not merely the "Daily Mail" which warned the Government; Lord Montagu warned them also. Why did hot the Government pay some attention both to the Press and to Lord Montagu while there was yet time? I wonder what my right hon. Friend, when he tells us that everything is well with regard to our Air Services, really thinks of the Zeppelin which came over accompanied by several other airships not very long ago—seven or eight weeks ago—and flew over Staffordshire into Shropshire. I will not mention the names of towns or villages. Does my right hon. Friend know that this particular Zeppelin hovered for nearly an hour, at a height of something like 1,000 feet only, over the church tower of a certain village, and then when the lights of a neighbouring town ten miles away were suddenly turned up it took a bee-line for that town to take its toll of death and damage? Is this monster ship which got back to Germany in safety an instance of the infancy of the science of aeronautics? If it is, all I can say is that it is like the infancy of that venerable Chinese deity who came into the world with his hair already whitened by the snows of many winters, for he happened to have been born old. This science is not in its infancy. In another place last week we heard of the developments of the latest type of Zeppelin. I can from my own knowledge corroborate what Lord Montagu said. It is capable of rising considerably over 14,000 feet, it has a speed of from sixty to eighty miles an hour—I am putting it low—with a mileage of travel of more than 16,000 miles. There can be no doubt that the newest Zeppelin is by no means a weapon of an infant science. We have had a great many estimates of the number of Zeppelins which the Germans are supposed to have at present. It may interest my right hon. Friend to know that I have good authority for saying that they had forty-three only three weeks or so ago.
I wish to refer briefly to one of the more recent Kentish air raids, so that I may give an answer to my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for War. I feel that I should be lacking in frankness if I did not acknowledge the dexterity of his phraseology when he attempted to defend the negligences and ignorances of his Department and of the Government in regard to our air defences. But although I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his courtesy, I am neither impressed by his arguments nor satisfied with his explanations. It will be recalled that I described in this House some few weeks ago how our machines had gone up far too late in this Kentish air raid, and had been fired upon by our own guns, and in referring to the fact that the machines were not ready I stated that the mess was some two miles from the air sheds where the aeroplanes were kept. What is my right hon. Friend's reply? As he has thought fit to impugn my accuracy, I feel sure he will allow me to quote his exact words. He does not mention the firing upon our own men nor the damage to the church at Walmer. He begins his apologia by an assumption of innocence which is truly amazing. He says: right hon. Friend would have us believe, why did not they go up at least within five minutes of receiving warning that the enemy was in sight? I make my right hon. Friend a present of his little taunt about merely "pressing a button." Why did not the machines go up when they should have gone up? Because they were not ready!
The enemy aircraft were first seen about twenty minutes to one. They were gone and out of sight by about ten minutes past one. The machines which it is pretended were ready did not go up till after the enemy had gone. We know what happened when they did go up. Then my right hon. Friend tells us that it is "not fair"—these are his exact words—to say that the whole thing was a muddle. If he will only take the trouble to look at the OFFICIAL REPORT he would see that I never once used the word "muddle." I said "scramble," and scramble there was, even to find the rifle with which this wonderful and powerful machine was finally armed. That there was a muddle, too, is abundantly clear. My right hon. Friend goes on to say that he told my Noble Friend the Member for Dover that if he is interested in the "historic question" of this particular raid he can consult the Admiralty. If my right hon. Friend says that, surely I am entitled to ask why was my original question about this particular raid not answered by the Admiralty, to whom it was addressed, and not by the Under-Secretary for War? My right hon. Friend tells us that the Air Services were then under Admiralty control. I know the Admiralty prepared a memorandum on the question. I am entitled to ask how it was that my right hon. Friend showed this memorandum, about this air-raid, which had been prepared by the Admiralty, to another Member of this House and not to me? Why was it, as the Admiralty was responsible, as my right hon. Friend says, that the War Office decided to answer my question? All I can say is that I am surprised that my right hon. Friend should have consented to add to the confusion by playing the War Office Spenlow to the Admiralty Jawkins. That is really what it means, and I am sorry to have to say it. My right hon. Friend has used the word "historic" in connection with this raid. Why historic? Are we not to learn from our historic shortcomings? Should they not teach us how to avoid future failures? But let me finish with my right hon. Friend's historic contradictions. It is idle to follow him in any further flights of his official imagination. I adhere to all I said with regard to that air-raid, and I only hope that our divided counsels will not give us another exhibition of such a lamentable nature.
The statement of my right hon. Friend— everything he has told us, even this afternoon—is an additional reason for co-ordinating the two Services under single main control, under a man with practical knowledge of the work he is called upon to direct. Meanwhile may I be allowed, before I conclude, to say how glad I am to think that Lord Derby has been made the chairman and that Lord Montagu is a member of the Committee dealing with the supply of aircraft and materials. We are told that great strides have already been made by this Committee in regard to our supplies. All I can say about it is this: That we are certainly entitled to have full faith in Lord Derby and Lord Montagu, even if we have lost faith in the Government owing to the assurances which they have recently given in regard to our Air Services. There is one other thing I should like to ask, and that is, Why this Committee which has been set up dealing with the supply of war material is not part and parcel of the Ministry of Munitions? Why should the War Office retain a separate Contract Department for aircraft? It can only lead to confusion and to additional extravagance. I do not quite yet understand exactly what is Lord Derby's position in regard to our Air Service. He says: is despondency it is easily accounted for; It is produced by the uncomfortable feeling that the Government has neglected its most obvious duties in regard to the Air Services, and recent attempts to conceal the truth are not going to mend matters. The public have a right to expect efficiency. It will not submit to a continuation of avoidable negligence. A remedy is not to be found by throwing dust in the eyes of the public, who have to supply the money, as well as the lives, for the mistakes and errors of the Government. So far as our Air Services are concerned, that Government is still afraid to confess to the country that they have "done those things which they ought not to have done, and have left undone those things which they ought to have done."
I think the country is entitled to know whether or not the mass of scientific and engineering ability that is in the country is being brought into use in connection with this great problem. To my mind the importance of aerial warfare grows day by day. There may have been some doubt at the beginning of the War as to how to look at it or meet it, but I think that everybody in this House and in the whole country has now made up his mind that the problem is one in which it is worth while to attend to, and demands the highest scientific intelligence and engineering intelligence of the country. We seem to have given up any idea of being able to compete with the German Zeppelins; but I think anyone who observes must agree that in naval warfare they are being used as scouts to the fleet. It may be, perhaps, not of vital importance, but of fundamental importance, to the fleet that it should be provided with Zeppelins for the purpose of scouting. Again, who knows how effective really the fighting force of the Zeppelins with the fleet may be? Yet, so far as the country and the House knows, the Government have not been able to make any provision to give our Fleet a similar system of Zeppelins. It may be impossible to do so. I hope it is not, because I myself believe that this is going to be one of the determining factors in this War. It seems to me quite likely that the assistance of a number of Zeppelins as a fighting and as a scouting force for the Navy will be of very great consequence indeed when the actual day arrives. If the country and the House knew whether the Government were making any provision with regard to Zeppelins it would be a relief, and if my right hon. Friend is able to give us that information to-night, so much the better.
As far as aeroplanes are concerned, it was pretty evident soon after the War commenced that our aeroplanes were more effective than were those of the Germans. I very much doubt whether to-day that is the case. No doubt the position has varied from time to time, but I am afraid from information communicated to me from various scientific sources that the danger to-day is that the German aeroplanes are in the way of being very much more effective than ours. Here, again, if we lose ground, surely it is the fault of not bringing under contribution the scientific and engineering ability of the country. I have been a careful listener to many of the Debates in this House of late, and I have failed to discover the real culprit in this matter of not getting the best ability that the country possesses. I am not saying this in any way to attack either the Army or the Navy administration. They have to look after a multitude of other things. But I have a real doubt in my own mind—and I believe the country too is doubtful—as to whether this problem is being approached with the full seriousness that it really deserves. It may very well be that in a comparatively few years, with the great advance in science, that aerial warfare will be the real determining factor in any contest between any two or more countries. The whole Debate must have shown that the public are quite willing to provide any money required for the development of heavier or lighter-than-air machines, and must have shown the Government that the House of Commons will give that money without the slightest demur.
I do not want to plead for any particular district, but I have to go very often into the south-east corner of England, and I, together with other Members, have been witnesses of the effect of several of these air-raids, and it brings it home to one. This particular district, the Isle of Thanet, and between that and Dover, is open to attack any hour of the day. Hostile aircraft come over the Channel from Zeebrugge or Ostend in a very few minutes. This shows how aerial warfare has developed. At present the whole of the district to which I have referred is exceedingly apprehensive. There is no real defence. They are helpless. At any time there may be a similar raid. What is demanded, not only by the people of the seacoast of England, but by the rest of the country, is that the Government should put itself in possession of the very best means, whether by aeroplanes, or guns, or Zeppelins, to meet a danger which is a great danger, and which I believe is going to be a vastly important factor in the decision, not only in this War, but in the wars of the future.
The hon. Member who has just addressed the House, like the Ion. Member who preceded him, has, of course, raised very important questions on the policy of the Government regarding the lighter-than-air machines. Now, the position we are in shows the extreme difficulty of discussing this question. The right hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary of State for War is in no position to answer why the Admiralty have not built Zeppelins. So long as Sir Douglas Haig does not want Zeppelins he and his Department have nothing to do with Zeppelins. This is one of the extraordinary results of conceiving the war in the air, not as a war in an element, but as an adjunct to a force which is operating either on the earth or on the sea, because so long as you have that extraordinary conception of war in the air, so long shall we go on in the extraordinary position, not of having a Ministry of the Air, an Intelligence Staff of the Air, a strategist of the air, but as having hidden away as neglected Cinderellas either in the Army or in the Admiralty rival departments with different objects, conflicting on some points, overlapping on others, and separated in still others. I have been amazed at some of the statements I have heard on this subject. The right hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary of State for War, in a recent speech, informed us that the Commander-in-Chief in France was quite satisfied with the number of aeroplanes he had, and if he wanted more we would send him more. How is it humanely possible for any commander-in-chief who understands air warfare, or realises there is such a thing as air warfare, to be satisfied with any number of aeroplanes? Surely it stands to reason that the larger and bigger the air fleet, the more vigorous, frequent, and powerful his attacks on the enemy lines of communication and depots could be. You might as well tell me there was an admiral of the fleet who was ever satisfied with the number of ships he had. Such an admiral has never existed, and never will exist.
That is one of the points which seems to me absolutely essential for the Government of the country to get into their head if they are ever to make any progress in this whole question of air warfare. If at the beginning of this War any nation had had a flying corps of five thousand aeroplanes, does anyone mean to tell me that that nation could not have practically finished the War in the first fortnight by destroying the other nation's towns, practically destroying its munition depots and lines of communication, whatever infantry and whatever fleet it had? Of course it could, and therefore you cannot go on treating aircraft as if it were something which was merely adjunct for observation, for scouting, or for bombing under the direction of a commander-in-chief, or for scouting or other purposes under the First Lord of the Admiralty. Quite apart from what I might call the adjunct service of air, there is such a thing as air strategy or air campaigns which will have to be decided in the future, and the first nation which seizes it with energy may find yet in this very War that it has got a decisive factor. What does this War show? On the sea you have to go under the water, and on the land you have to fly over. You cannot go through, as the recent offensive shows, but there is a way over the enemy's trenches, and that is through the air, and if you could develop rapidly a large and powerful air fleet which really could do effective work, you might find that a decisive factor in this War.
When up to now we speak continually of the ineffectual results of air warfare, when we are astonished that Zeppelins which have come here, or the aircraft which bomb us at the front, achieve relatively little, I would point out that to anyone who will think the question out the effect is very much the same as the question of artillery bombardment. In the last Zeppelin raid over England there were seven Zeppelins. The Zeppelin can only throw a limited number of bombs, and obviously it can, therefore, only do a limited amount of damage. Supposing you multiply that number by ten, it is obvious that the damage would be enormously wider spread. Supposing you multiplied it by a hundred, imagine what the devastation would result. Anyone who has been to France and has seen the bombarded villages must have observed what an enormous number of shells are required in order practically to destroy one farmhouse. If, therefore, you only have a few guns, the result of your bombardment would be very ineffective. But if you mass your guns and get a large number, you get a correspondingly greater result. Translate that from your artillery to the air, and if, instead of sending twenty-five aeroplanes to bombard an enemy railway station you send fifty or a hundred, obviously you multiply your result enormously. If, instead of an air raid every week, or fortnight, or month, you had enough aeroplanes to make one every day, no one can tell to what extent it would disorganise the offensive or defensive position of your enemy in this War. Therefore, there cannot be any limit. I do not believe anyone who thinks the question out can say there can be any limit either as to the number of machines or pilots you want. There may be, and there are undoubtedly, limits as to the number of machines and pilots you can create in a given time. Then the question arises, Is everything and all being done to create the maximum numbers of machines and pilots? I would say in that connection I am afraid everything has not been done, and more could be done than is being done at the present time. I have been informed that many more engines could have been built than have been built in the past. I have been informed that engines of first-class engine builders in this country have been refused by the Army Flying Service, although adopted by the Naval Flying Service with very good results.
Those facts, so far as they can guide one, show that everything possible has not been done, and that leads me to the question, What is Lord Derby's Committee doing to-day, and what are the functions of Committee? I am very much afraid that Lord Derby's Committee is merely the usual official eye-wash when anything goes wrong. The formula of the Government seems to be, "If we get in a mess, send for Lord Derby." I do not think you can show that is a very successful remedy, and I do not know it would be a very successful remedy as far as the air position is concerned. What we would like to know is, Is Lord Derby's Committee a Committee with any executive power at all, because, judging from Lord Derby's own statement, and from other information, I understand that Lord Derby's Committee has not got power to order or buy a single engine or a single plane, or to make a single suggestion as regards the design of an aeroplane, and that it has not a single shilling to spend in any direction whatever, but that its function is to get hold of the representatives of the Army and Navy Flying Corps and induce these gentlemen kindly to help each other instead of getting into each other's way. If that is its only function, it is a very small function, and one quite beneath the continued attention of men in the position of Lord Derby or Lord Montagu of Beaulieu, and one which, in the long run, no serious people would care to occupy. What we want is, not merely a committee but an executive body. Might I call attention to a parallel example? Take the Explosives Committee of whose work I happen to know something. There you appointed a Committee, of which Lord Moulton is chairman, which deals with the provision of explosives for the Army and Navy, which deals with the manufacture of them, which is practically free from Treasury control, which has gathered around it the best technical experts you can find, and which has succeeded in doing invaluable work for this country. It has not merely given the Army and Navy what they asked for, but it has been able to suggest to them new explosives which have never before been usd by the Army or Navy in this country, and its experiments have proved to be most useful. Surely if there is an objection to the establishment of a Ministry, you can establish a Committee which, at any rate, can take over the provision of the necessary aircraft for Army and Navy purposes. Why should you have two contract departments, one for the Navy and one for the Army, and two design departments, one for the Navy and one for the Army, and why should you have the position you find to-day of the Army and Navy actually competing against each other for work with the same contractors, and running up the price against each other? Why should you have this division of experience gained by aeroplanes in the two sister Services? It seems perfectly fantastic to find the Navy making valuable experiments in one direction, and perhaps the Army not hearing anything about it, and vice versâ . Can anyone imagine any business being run successfully which is run in this watertight manner? It is not only extravagant, uneconomical, and prevents progress, but it is detrimental to the Services involved.
The right hon. Gentleman sometimes does not realise how Departmental he becomes as the War goes on. In reply to a statement made by an hon. Friend behind me, he said, "Oh, the Army was not responsible for the defences seven weeks ago, and, of course, the defences have been very much improved since the Army took them over." And I have no doubt if there had been a representative of the Admiralty there he would have said possibly that the Army had spoilt the valuable defences the Navy put up. But the country is not in the least interested in the question whether the Army or the Navy do the work, but it is interested in the result. The difficulty we find is this, what I might call, watertight responsibility, and therefore, as I pointed out, we do not get any benefit from co-operation, but a kind of Departmental jealousy and fault-finding, which certainly do not advance matters. If you had a Committee formed of men on the lines of your Explosives Committee, with power to design, to provide the different machines that are wanted, and with great powers of spending money where they thought advisable, it would be a great advantage. You are dealing with an experimental service, and if you want to experiment you must spend money, and spend money intelligently. If is no use, if a technical man wants to spend £5,000 on an experiment, for the Treasury to tell him he can have £1,000, because for £5,000 he might achieve a result, but for £1,000 he certainly could not.
I know more than one case of valuable inventions in the Air Service which have been suggested to the War Office—some perhaps to the Admiralty—which have not been proceeded with simply because £1,000, £2,000, or £3,000 have not been available. That seems to me a perfectly absurd position. An engineer I happen to know invented and designed a very clever aeroplane which can rise almost vertically and very rapidly from the ground. It is a machine specially designed to meet the German Fokker machine. He sent the designs to the War Office. They said, "We think it is a very excellent idea, and if you get one built we will try it for you." But to get one built would cost this friend of mine £1,500, and he has not got £1,500. They Say, "Why don't you get it?" Why should private people find that? Why should not the War Office try an experiment of that kind? Why should you not have a Committee which is able to spend £1,500 on an experiment? If the idea was bad it would not matter much when you are spending £5,000,000 a day, and if the idea was good it might be a most valuable thing. I do not say you are to throw money away on wild-cat ideas, or adopt any invention that comes along, but I do say it is absurd that there seems to be no power on earth which can provide these relatively small sums of money for experiments. After all, if we proceeded on those lines on the Explosives Committee matters would be in a very bad way. Large sums of money are being spent on big works, and the thing has been able to progress as rapidly as possible. I should like to see something similar done in this direction in regard to aeroplanes. The right hon. Gentleman the other day made the most disquieting statement that apparently superiority in the Air Service goes up and down, and that sometimes the balance is in favour of England and sometimes in favour of Germany. I would like to ask at what period has Germany ever had a superiority over this country in ship construction? What First Lord of the Admiralty has ever said that sometimes Germany has had better ships than we have had, and that we have had to catch them up? If it is true that we once had ascendancy in the Air Service, it is a great pity that we should ever have lost it, and I cannot understand why it has been lost to us. It can only be that, instead of developing new ideas, we have been content with old ideas, or else our technical staff is not as good as that of the Germans, which I do not believe for a moment. I understand that we had the Fokker machine offered to us, and that we condemned it as an unstable and dangerous machine.
My right hon. Friend is quite mistaken. What he is thinking of is that the inventor of the Fokker machine did submit an invention which was an unstable and unsatisfactory machine, but it had no resemblance at all to the existing Fokker machine.
I think the same inventor submitted three different proposals.
I cannot understand why we did not keep in touch with this inventor. Surely British money is as good to a Dutchman as German money, and if we had been fully alive to our own interests we should have had this Fokker machine. The criticism of our airman which has been made by people who understand air matters better than I do, is that there has been a great attempt on our part to design and produce one particular machine to carry out all possible objects, with the result that it is loaded with all kinds of paraphernalia, when in order to carry out those two or three objects it would be much better to have a number of machines. The Germans have sub-divided the service of their machines. The French observation machine is not a fighting machine at all. Can the Under-Secretary for War assure us that there are no observation machines in our Service now being used for fighting, and that all the fighting is now being done by fighting machines? If so, we have made considerable progress. That is one of the criticisms which has been levelled and you have to individualise your machines more and more. If the right hon. Gentleman assures us that this is being done, and that we are endeavouring not only to utilise our own intelligence but also the extraordinary intelligence and experience of our French Allies as far as their machines are concerned, he will quiet a great many apprehensions of those who, without any wish to decry in any way the work that has been done by the Air Service Department or its staff, think and feel and realise that in a service like this there is an infinite amount of work to do. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman understands the points of criticism which have been made. Undoubtedly this is an experimental question and there is no harm in admitting that mistakes have been committed and are being rectified. The right hon. Gentleman has always taken up the position that everything is in the best possible state in the best possible world, but when he takes up that attitude we feel that there is a wonderful sense of righteousness about him and his Department, but it is bad for progress and efficiency. Nobody expects perfection or that mistakes will not be made, but if mistakes are admitted and progress reported, and if this is being seriously proceeded with, then I am sure that all who take a really serious interest in this important arm will be quite satisfied.
I would like to say a word about the question of Zeppelin sheds. I cannot understand the statement that it takes longer to build a Zeppelin shed than a Zeppelin. I had an opportunity of discussing this matter with a chief engineer, who understood the construction of Zeppelin sheds as well as anybody in Germany, and from the plans and designs that he showed to me and the information he gave to me I certainly gathered that you could build a Zeppelin shed, in the way Count Zeppelin's people build them, a great deal quicker than you can build a Zeppelin. If it takes much longer to build a hangar than an airship, it can only be because the people who design the hangar are not acquainted with the easiest and quickest methods. I know the right hon. Gentleman is not directly interested in airships, but, as far as the Air Service generally is concerned, I think it will be admitted, and it is important, that the real way to fight Zeppelins is with Zeppelins, and that nothing else will be found to be effective in dealing with long distance raids.
Then there is the question of creating a directing air staff. At the present time I do not know whether there is any particular Department specially charged with the duty of studying any of the places where air raids could be directed against Germany with the best prospects of most effectively crippling Germany as far as the destruction of munition factories is concerned. I do not know what particular Department that duty belongs to, and it seems to me that it ought to be a Department almost by itself. Germany is easily subject to air raids which would seriously embarrass her munition supplies, and, to make these long-distance raids, experience has shown us that the airship is far more suitable than the aeroplane. This is not merely a question of providing airships for the Navy, but it is a question of providing airships in order to carry out the bombardment of munition factories in Germany which would very much tend to shorten this War. I hope my right hon. Friend will be able to give us some information on the subjects which have been brought forward during the Debate, and that some of the broader aspects of the question, which other hon. Members and myself have raised, will be dealt with. We do not gain much by squabbling over the details of the various raids which have taken place. The country expects something larger, and is convinced of the necessity of the Government adopting larger measures. I hope we shall not have a repetition of what we have had so often—that is, a prolonged agitation and reluctant acquiescence, but that we shall.
have in advance a bold, large, and determined programme of policy, which I am sure the country will endorse and welcome, and I am certain all sections of the community will support such a policy with determination and energy.
The Debate this afternoon has been largely concerned with aeroplanes and Zeppelins and various opinions with regard to the uses to which both of those machines can be put in the air. Before drawing the attention of the House to another cognate subject, I would like to say about the speeches which have been made that those of us who heard the case made by the hon. Member for East Herts (Mr. Billing) will agree, at any rate, that he submitted evidence to the House which leads one to the conclusion that the matter cannot obviously be left in the present position, and that the War Office and the Admiralty must meet the charges that have been made in some better way than in Debate. I think the House will agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Swansea (Sir A. Mond) that you do not get very much out of a continual discussion and Debate in this House on topics of that kind, and what the public require is to have the matter settled. This is a matter that can easily be settled, because it is a question of evidence. As I understand it, the gravamen of the hon. Member's charge is that a number of airmen who ought to be better equipped are not so well equipped as they might be, because there are in existence machines which one is told are finer than any other machines than can be obtained abroad, but that these are not available for the purposes of these men. That seems to me to be a question of evidence pure and simple. Either there are those machines or there are not. Either they are better for the purpose than the machines which are being used or they are not, and they will save life instead of risking life. But those are all questions which can be decided by any small body of men on evidence laid, and it seems therefore that the request made by the hon. Member for East Herts to have the matter inquired into is a reasonable one which the House should agree to willingly. Therefore, I hope the Under-Secretary for War will meet the case that has been made by as speedily as possible putting it to the test of evidence, and I feel sure that the hon. Member for East Herts is perfectly ready to stand by the charges he has made and be discredited if it can be shown that his statements cannot be proved. When you have the matter in a nutshell in that way I do not see why those responsible cannot at once submit the matter to the test of evidence. While we are discussing the question of aeroplanes and Zeppelins we are forgetting that so far as we are concerned the best protection at the moment available to us in this country, and certainly in the City of London, from Zeppelin or aeroplane raids is gunfire.
7.0 P.M.
I am not for a moment saying that gunfire is the remedy, because I do not know, and I have only got to make up my mind as other hon. Members have when the evidence is placed before me, but I am stating as a fact, and those who have listened to this Debate from the beginning will agree that, so far as London and the rest of the country at the moment are concerned, gunfire is what we have got to rely upon. We have had a body of men who are known as the Royal Naval Anti-Aircraft Corps, and I want my right hon. Friend, if he can, to settle definitely in his speech to-night some questions about them. All the Members of this House acquainted with that Corps will agree that at the moment the members are disheartened by what is happening to the Corps. They comprise men who have given up businesses in the City and elsewhere, men who are unfit to serve in the Army—that is the only reason they are in that Corps; they would be glad to be at the front if they were physically capable of being there—men who have given a great amount of time, a great amount of energy, and a great amount of enthusiasm to this particular work. The House, in fact, owes a great deal more to that body of men than it really knows. There are, for instance, men in the Corps who have, out of their own pockets, out of their own resources, supplied the essential equipment in many of the air stations in the City of London. They have provided what they call the gear. I know one station—I happen to have a number of friends on that particular station—where it would be reasonable to say that every able-bodied man has been at least £5 out of pocket in providing for the station that which the Government ought to have provided. These men do not grudge it; as a matter of fact, a great many of them can afford to do it, and they are quite willing to afford to do it in order that their stations may be better equipped than otherwise they can be.
A great deal has been said in this House about not giving information away, and I will try and observe that necessity. Therefore, let me say—the House knows it is not so, but the House will understand—that the defences of London are in three parts. The men who are responsible for manning those three parts of the defences of London have now been taken off the third and the second parts and confined practically to the first part, and they have been replaced in the third and the second parts by Regular soldiers. You have now this kind of thing happening. The air stations in London are run by naval men, and Naval orders are different from Army orders. I know of a case in which the naval officer of one of those stations gave an order to dismiss to eight men of the Army, who had come on there for the first time, and they dimissed off the station altogether, and were unable to be discovered when they were wanted for a particular purpose. The order presumably was in naval terms, and meant that the men were to return to their quarters. In those stations you have Army men, many of them recruits, who have got to be taught the work, in charge, say, of the searchlights. I would suggest that it is a reasonable economy to refrain from putting eight or nine men round about a searchlight when it is daylight. That is happening in a great many stations in London to-day. You have in charge of the searchlights military men who have nothing to do during the day. The men who used to run the searchlights were professional and business men, who gave a great deal of their time, and ran these searchlights on a kind of half-time basis. My right hon. Friend will probably agree that as a matter of fact those searchlights have had to be repaired a great deal oftener since Army recruits were put on them than they were when they were in the hands of these very efficient men.
Can my right hon. Friend really tell these men what their future is going to be? He says that he has already done so, but it has not reached the men themselves, and that is why I am speaking again. I have only to-day been in the company of three or four of my friends who are in this service, and not one of them can tell what is going to happen to him. However much the War Office or the Admiralty may have made up their minds, it has not penetrated to the very intelligent men who make up that service. They have been driven in to the inner defences of London, and their services are not being utilised in the way that they might be utilised. A great many of them have spent a considerable time and given a considerable amount of ability to the work. This is evidenced in the fact that a great many of the inventions connected with the guns defending London, and a great many of the devices, are due to the ability of those men. A great many of them may throw up the whole thing and go back to their own business. They feel that they are not going to be given an opportunity to develop as part of a great defensive air force in the country, and that they might as well be doing work in other ways, especially as they are men who are not fitted physically to join the Army. Therefore, I hope my right hon. Friend will make it quite clear what is going to be done to them.
I would suggest one way in which there is great room for development. We had a very eloquent speech this afternoon from my hon. Friend who represents Brigg (Sir W. Gelder), who described to us—a number of Members were not here owing to other reasons—in detail the experiences of some people somewhere on the East Coast which is very familiar to a great many of us. He pointed out what is perfectly true, and what was known to a number of men in this House, that at one particular place on the East Coast the defences consisted of a wooden gun. I do not take the same view of some hon. Members, because I believe both the Admiralty and the War Office are entitled to deceive the people sometimes, if by doing so they are saving life and preventing a panic, but at the same time it is quite clear that there must be greater and better defences on the coast, and I want to suggest to my right hon. Friend in the personnel of the Royal Naval Anti-Aircraft Corps you have men who could easily provide the skeleton of an organisation for the East Coast. It would be perfectly easy out of the trained men you have in the inner defences of London to get men who would build up out of the East Coast towns an organisation with sufficient men to man guns similar to those you are using in London to-day. If you did that you would put inspiration into a body of men who are to-day disheartened because of treatment which, rightly or wrongly, they are at present receiving from the War Office or the Admiralty.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea (Sir A. Mond) made an appeal to me to throw off what I think he thought, although he did not say so, was a slightly wooden departmental attitude of mind, and to confess that occasionally things went wrong. May I, at the very outset of my remarks, observe that I am well aware, sadly and melancholy aware as any man can be, that mistakes have been made? I am perfectly free to confess that, and if I do not say it every other minute, I hope that I shall not be accused of not recognising it. I do not think it is the business of any Minister who stands here to represent a great Department in the middle of a great war to appear perpetually in a white sheet. Then my right hon. Friend also said that he objected in a manner to the War Office appearing in a kind of watertight capacity, having nothing to do with its neighbour the Admiralty. I appeal to hon. Members to place themselves in the position of someone who, like myself, has to defend his Department, and who has no earthly control over any other Department. I think they might realise that it is almost impossible for me to be so concerned about what may be the responsibility of another Department, but which is not the responsibility of my own. I appeal to the House to exercise that amount of imagination in order to understand the position which I occupy.
If I may deal with my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) first, I would say to him that we at the War Office recognise and appreciate to the full the admirable services which have been given freely to the State by the class of gentlemen to whom he has referred. They have given of their time, often of their money, and their leisure to help the defensive service of this country in London against hostile aircraft. We are most grateful to them, and I can assure him of several things of which I thought he and they were aware, though apparently I was mistaken. It is not correct to say that the men of the Royal Naval Anti-Aircraft Corps have been replaced by men of the Royal Garrison Artillery. That is the first mistake. I have consulted the Field-Marshal Commanding-in-Chief, and those are his words. This is the explanation of the idea which has gained currency:
Then you are doing something.
I am obliged for my right hon. Friend's kind words.
This is a matter which concerns the prospects of promotion in the whole London Anti-Air-craft Service. Is it a fact that the personnel in the old Corps may in future hope for the promotion which they looked for in the old days, or have they been given notice that there will be no further promotions?
I cannot answer that question.
It is a very serious matter.
I did not say that it was not a serious matter. If my hon. Friend will give me notice I will inquire. A general allegation has been made as to the deficiencies of the permanent Royal Flying Corps, particularly in its comparison with those of our enemies. The proposition I laid down on the last occasion, or the last but one, on which I spoke will, I have no doubt, be fresh in the minds of many hon. Gentlemen. What I then said was that in the first nine months of the War the ascendency of the British Air Service was so pronounced as to be very remarkable indeed. What had really been the surprise had been, not that the Germans should improve their air service, but that they should not have done it long before. I think that that is perfectly true. I know it experienced a certain amount of comment outside, but anyone who really knows what did occur at the front during the first nine or ten months of the War knows it to be a statement of fact. It used to be said, for instance, in the early part of the War, by the Flying Corps, that "if you point an old Maurice at a Hun he goes to the ground at once." That was moral ascendancy, much more than anything else. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Brentford (Mr. Joynson-Hicks) is quite aware of that and, probably, if he would consult his experts as to what occurred in the early part of the War he would say that that ascendancy was due not to the superiority of our engines over those of the Germans—
If the right hon. Gentleman appeals to me, I think he is right.
I do not think it was due to the superiority of their engines.
It was due rather to our men.
I am not at all sure that our designs were not better then and are not better to-day. But I do not think it desirable to discuss these comparisons in public. I want to say this, that when the Germans did make their effort two or three months ago we were infinitely better supplied, both as to numbers and material, and the quality of the officers was as good as ever, so that we did not fall upon an unhappy moment when they made their new development. On the other hand, it did come slightly as a surprise; we had been going on for nine months without anything happening, and, of course, when their new trick, if I may so call it, or new development, occurs, it does naturally come with some suddenness, and they gain, at the moment, a certain amount of advantage through the novelty of their new methods of warfare. But I am bound to say that these tactics are now being met quite satisfactorily. Our reconnaissances, although under difficult conditions, are being carried out with the greatest possible regularity and to the entire satisfaction of the Commander-in-Chief. The fighting in the air continues with no advantage to the enemy. For the moment the majority of the German aeroplanes are probably faster than the majority of our own. But we cannot expect every one of our aeroplanes to be faster than those of the Germans. I do not know what the House does expect, but certainly we expect to have as good aeroplanes as the Germans, and if possible a larger number of superior ones. That, at any rate, is what we hope for, but to say that at any particular moment every one of our aeroplanes shall be faster than any German machines is, I think, an impossible proposition.
Does the right hon. Gentleman say that is the position now?
I am saying that, at the moment, the majority of the German aeroplanes are probably faster than the majority of our own, owing to their higher engine power, but this state of affairs is being gradually altered. While I am on that point, I may remark that my right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea (Sir A. Mond) asked me whether we had aeroplanes for different purposes; whether, like the White Knight in "Alice in Wonderland," we armed them for all kinds of purposes, and thus practically impaired their power to serve the country. I should like to assure the right hon. Gentleman that this is quite a mistaken idea. There are large numbers of reconnaissance aeroplanes, and they are very similar to the German reconnaissance machine. There are also large numbers of fighting aeroplanes which are used as escorts, but some being single-seaters are unsuitable for reconnaissance purposes, and particularly for artillery observation. What I want the House to realise is that of course we have aeroplanes for different purposes, and have had for a long period of time. When you have letters coming which hon. Members sometimes do receive from the front, to which attention is drawn to the superior speed of the German aeroplane, in almost every case it will be found that these letters come from squadrons which, are engaged on the work of artillery observation and short reconnaissance, while the letters from the officers of fighting squadrons tell an exactly opposite story. My right hon. Friend asked me about the Derby Committee. That Committee has been really set up as a Sub-Committee of the War Office—as an Advisory Committee to advise the War Office on various matters of policy in connection with materials, and it will be instrumental, it is hoped, in coordinating the duties of the service between the Admiralty and the War Office. Therefore, when my right hon. Friend accuses us of being separated in watertight compartments one from the other—the Admiralty from the War Office —I would point out that this very machinery is designed to alter that state of things, and I venture to think personally it will have that effect. One other point was raised by my right hon. Friend. He put into my mouth a statement which I hope I did not make, and which was that the Commander-in-Chief was satisfied with the numbers of aeroplanes and personnel which he had. That was not what I intended to convey to the House. I intended to say that the Commander-in-Chief was satisfied with the Air Service which he had. But that does not mean he would not like it to be larger. Obviously one might as well say that Sir John Jellicoe is satisfied with the British Fleet. That does not mean that he would not like another ship or two. Obviously he would. My right hon. Friend also asked what was being done to improve the service. I am habitually trying to inform the House that we are endeavouring to the best of our ability and with the greatest energy to do every mortal thing which human ingenuity can devise in order to bring our aircraft and our Air Service up to the standard which is proper and which can be demanded by the public as well as by the commanders in the field. My right hon. Friend, as an illustration of how we were not performing our part in the best possible manner, referred to a refusal of engines which had been been accepted by the Admiralty. I am unaware of what he alluded to unless, indeed, it was the Rolls-Royce machine. If that was it, then, indeed, my right hon. Friend has discovered a mare's nest. He apparently thought we should have ordered these machines ourselves from the Rolls-Royce firm, but instead of that we asked the Admiralty, who are conducting the negotiations with the firm, to get the machines for us. That does not show quite such a watertight method of business as the right hon. Gentleman says exists when, we utilise the service of the sister Service in this way.
I should like to know whether it is not a fact that the Rolls-Royce firm offered to put up new works in., order to build a larger number of machines than had been ordered, and were informed that that was not required?
I think that that is not the case, but I should not like to say more without consultation, as I cannot give an absolute assurance on the point. Then my right hon. Friend asked me a question about a particular invention, which he said was a very good one and which would cost £1,500 to buy, but that nobody would provide the money in order to do it, therefore the experiment was not made. All I can say is that it showed a marvellous amount of ingenuity on the-part of the inventor if he failed to get it tried, because there are two separate bodies who might have carried out the experiment—one is the Inventions Board of the Ministry of Munitions and the other the Inventions Board which is under the First Lord of the Admiralty. Either of those Boards, if they had thought well of the invention, would have had it taken up, put it in hand, and had an experiment made which would have satisfied my right hon. Friend opposite. I ought, perhaps, to enter this caveat that these Inventions. Boards are bombarded by every kind of person with every kind of folly, and the House will realise quite well that they have to keep a very jealous eye upon the inventions which are submitted to them before they are accepted. As to what I may call the little controversy between my hon. Friend the Member for Brent-ford (Mr. Joynson-Hicks) and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Southampton (Mr. Dudley Ward), I do not think the hon. Member will expect me to enter into that to-day, as I practically dealt with the matter in a previous speech, and I do not think there is any point upon which I did not touch which he would desire me to touch upon to-day.
The right hon. Gentleman can leave it alone if he wishes to do so, but the matter is rather awkward because my hon. and gallant Friend made his statement, which I am very loath to-contradict. Obviously a statement made-by a friend of mine in this House receives from me more credence than a statement from an outside source. I am bound to accept it. On the other hand, the local authorities at Ramsgate do most distinctly controvert that statement. There are five different statements here which I should be glad to hand to my right hon. Friend. They do ask for the inquiry. I must leave the matter there. That is the difference between the two sources of information.
I shall be very willing to inquire into the facts. With that promise I hope my hon. Friend will allow me to pass on, because there is a good deal of ground to cover. My hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Marshall) made some observations about the Isle of Thanet and the desirability of putting signalling stations at various specified points, which, I am bound to say, I thought it was very undesirable to bring before this House. To point out that there is high ground and that it would be good ground for an observation place is just the kind of information one does not want ventilated in the House of Commons. I do not wish to say that to rebuke my hon. Friend, but I give it as an illustration of the kind of thing we do not desire to have done.
I come to the speech of the hon. Member for East Hertfordshire (Mr. Billing). He spoke with some heat, with what he described as emotion. I think it is always a pity to engender heat in such matters. It is very apt to be subversive of light, therefore I shall endeavour to follow him without it. He spoke of ignorance and intrigue among the high officials of the War Office. That is a matter on which I have better means of ascertaining the truth than the hon. Member. I will assure him, if he will take my assurance, that he is wholly misinformed.
expressed dissent.
Of course, if he will not take my assurance it is no good my giving it to him. Then I shall have to deal with his statements in detail. He spoke, for instance, of the aerodrome at Dover. I do not know whether he was alluding to the aerodrome under the military wing of the Royal Flying Corps or not. If he was, all I can say is that it is one of the very best aerodromes we have got.
I was referring to the naval aerodrome. Last week I put a question in regard to this aerodrome to the First Lord of the Admiralty, who answered it, and to-day I put the question to the Under-Secretary for War, both as to the military and naval aerodromes.
I am not able to speak for the naval aerodrome, but as regards the military aerodrome, I am informed that it is one of the best in the possession of His Majesty's Government. I would like to disillusion the hon. Gentleman with regard to the factory at Farnborough. It is not a producing factory in the sense of producing large numbers of engines or their parts. It is a factory to assist us in the manufacture of designs. We do not produce quantities there, and it is not a manufacturing plant. In the speech of the hon. Member there was a long category of very melancholy casualties. I need hardly tell the House that when you are dealing with a very dangerous occupation like flying, at a very dangerous time and in the middle of a great war, accidents must happen. I do not think it would be possible to exaggerate the sadness of those things which do occur. Yet at the same time some of us, who have great responsibilities and who realise the dangers inherent to the kind of warfare and the dangers inherent to the conditions of the Flying Corps, have sent our own sons into the Flying Corps, and do not believe they are going to be murdered. My own eldest son is a member of the Flying Corps. So is the son of the Commander of the Flying Corps, Sir David Henderson. As the hon. Member has made these statements and has assumed, quite wrongly in my judgment, that these unfortunate accidents occurred owing to lack of care, owing to faulty mechanism, owing to there being worn-out machines or to the machines being overladen from one cause or another, I will tell him this, that I will make it my business to have these statements investigated by a purely unofficial body—by a judicial body if possible. When my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister comes back I will ask him whether he will not set up a small judicial body to go through the allegations and lists put before the House by the hon. Member for East Herts, and to furnish a report to the House, so that we may see exactly what has happened.
It is not difficult for any hon. Member in this House to bring up, in a great War like this, lists of casualties and to state facts in relation to individual cases and draw upon the feeling of the House to commiserate with those who have lost their nearest and dearest. But what is on the other side? How many thousands of miles have been flown? How many hundreds and thousands of times have these men gone up and yet nothing has been said about it? They have come back home safe and sound, as we all know. Anyone who has a friend or relation in the Flying Corps has only to ask him how many times he has crossed the German lines. Many of them have done it hundreds and hundreds of times. Let the hon. Gentleman, should he get the opportunity, ask any man who knows the facts of the German Flying Corps how many men of their Corps have been driven down on their own lines by our pilots. We do not know, we cannot tell, because these men have nearly always fallen over the German lines, and our pilots are very modest young men. They do not pretend to have knocked out a German aeroplane unless they are absolutely certain and have seen it hit the ground with a smack. A machine might be hit at a height of 8,000 feet and might fall 3,000 feet, but the man might very likely get home all right. Therefore, unless you see the machine crash to the ground you are not absolutely certain that you have scored a victory. It is believed that a very large number of German aeroplanes have been driven to the earth, although you cannot say so definitely because you have not actually seen them.
The hon. Member made a very effective point in his speech by informing the House that our pilots are ordered out at night, that they are driven up into the air at night, when they can only be driven to their death. I want to assure the House that in no case is an officer ordered to ascend at night to intercept a Zeppelin. Full information is given to those officers who are detailed for defence duties, and full discretion is also given to them as to whether the conditions are suitable or not. Sometimes it is difficult to restrain officers. Sometimes they put a liberal interpretation on the term "favourable conditions," but it is believed that instructions are now thoroughly understood and will be interpreted in the proper spirit. It has never been intended that officers in a training station should endeavour to attack airships at a great height by night, because the machines in which they are being trained are not fitted to undertake such flights; therefore it has never been considered proper that they should undertake any such task. I wish to make this quite clear, because I understand that there are certain places in England where there have been training squadrons and where the officers and men have been hooted in the streets for not having attacked the Zeppelins, whereas to attack them with the training aeroplanes which they are using would be useless, absurd, and a waste of human life. Now that I have informed the House that officers are not commanded in any case to go up at night and attack Zeppelins I hope the hon. Member for East Herts will not consider it desirable to continue in the belief that they are and that it is not entirely within their own discretion.
The hon. Member went on to speak about death dives. I could give him a description of a death dive. An officer who is known to me made a descent upon a German Fokker shed from a great height, travelling at such a great height that he was able to switch down his engine for the last eight miles. He got rather too low above the shed, so that when he dropped his bombs the explosion was so great that he did considerable damage to his own aeroplane. I shall enlist the sympathy and excitement of the House when I tell them that when he tried to switch his engine on it would not go, and he thought he was right down in the German lines. Then just at the last moment it went. But there was a moment when he thought he was done for. That was not due to a defective engine, but to the great cold. He was naturally at a great height to be able to cover eight miles without any engine going, and the cold was so intense that the engine would not pick up, but it eventually did. My hon. Friend (Sir A. Gelder) made a powerful appeal to us, and we all listened with the greatest sympathy and with great regret that there had been no possibility to reply, which was the main thesis of his text, and we all felt, no doubt, how melancholy it was that there had been no reply. The hon. Member said that apparently we had given up all hope of being able to deal with Zeppelin raids. We have not. On the contrary, our hope is stronger to-day of being able to deal with them than it has ever been before. I make no boast, I make no promise, I only tell the House that we are endeavouring to do all we can. Of course the question of material is still a difficult one, and I do not wish to pretend that all is as we could wish it. I was informed at the time of the last raid that the rail- way lights had been alight at the particular town my hon. Friend mentioned, and I made it my business to have an inquiry made, and the North Eastern Railway Company informed me that every light had been put out.
The lights on the North Eastern Railway were reduced to the lowest point, I believe, but the lights on the Hull and Barnsley High Level railway round that city were blazing just the same as they were on the first occasion and have not been lowered yet.
I am very much obliged to my hon. Friend because that was the possible explanation which I put forward to my Department. I said, "Could it have been the Hull and Barnsley and not the North Eastern?" and obviously it must have been. I can certainly promise that I will make it my business to communicate with the authorities of the Hull and Barnsley Railway and have that defect remedied. The hon. Member (Mr. Lynch) spoke about the advantages of Zeppelins and aeroplanes. That is a very technical question of high policy, as between two different forms, the lighter than aircraft and the aeroplane. Obviously it is a matter for the War Council and not for anyone except people with great technical knowledge, and therefore I do not pretend to offer any opinion. For the money and for the speed which you can get there is a great deal to be said for aeroplanes as against Zeppelins, but with that statement I do not wish to go further into the matter. My hon. Friend (Sir A. Markham) also dealt with the question of lights, and asked me whether I would see that notification should be given to collieries in order that they might put out their lights.
I think an order has been given to collieries. I was referring to the Great Central Railway.
With regard to railways I can make exactly the same promise that I made to my hon. Friend (Sir A. Gelder) in regard to the Hull and Barnsley Railway. He asked me to give an assurance in relation to men being sent up in flying machines which are not fit. I am very glad to give him the assurance at once, which I am sure he anticipates, that no pilots are sent up in aeroplanes which are, in the opinion of their flight or squadron commanders, dangerous, or likely to be dangerous, or unfit for the duties they are told to accomplish. I am very glad to give him that assurance both as regards the past and the future, and he may take it as being an absolute rule of the Service for any time during the War. My hon. Friend asked me whether I could tell him that machines which were not considered to be really useful and in good condition are scrapped. Of course they are, constantly. It is done every day. I think the answer to that is best seen in the light of a speech I made the other day, in which I told the House how engines were constantly being superseded by better engines, and, of course, the newer and better engines would not be put in old and bad machines. That would be absurd. They are only put on machines which are in such good condition as to be really good, serviceable machines. I could not help being amused at the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Captain Bennett-Goldney) telling me that I read him a lecture. He read me one for three-quarters of an hour—as heavy a bit of lecturing as I have almost ever had. In relation to his criticism about the difficulty in getting messages sent where in certain places the police and the local authorities and the military authorities have reason to wish the operators in the telephone department to be available to communicate messages to such parts of the country as may be agreed upon, the public will not be permitted to send telephone messages. Where it is necessary in the public interest that these messages should go from the public authorities, naturally private individuals ought not to interfere, but in the event of there being a fire, for instance, in the man's house, the operator will be told that is a case where the message ought to be allowed to be transmitted, and would be transmitted. I think that will satisfy the hon. and gallant Gentleman. My hon. Friend (Sir W. Pearce) also asked me whether we were utilising to the best of our power, or to the best of the country's provision, all the highest scientific intelligence which the country produces. We have an Advisory Committee which includes Lord Rayleigh, Dr. Glazebrook, Mr. Mallock, and Mr. Horace Darwin. We also have at the disposal of the War Office the National Physical Laboratory, which works upon aeronautical problems.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman (Captain Bennett-Goldney) was anxious to show that I was wrong in a statement that I made before. I will repeat in another way what I know is a fact with regard to the station at Dover. There is only one military aeroplane station at Dover, and the mess is some 200 yards from the sheds. The officers of the Royal Flying Corps lunch at this mess and not in any hotel. Therefore I think I am perfectly justified in claiming that that was the case and I put it before the hon. Gentleman before. The military air station at Dover is a training station and not a defence station. I only wish further to correct a false impression which I know I gave the other day, when I was speaking about the members of the hierarchy in the air service having had air experience, and I gave as an illustration the case of Sir David Henderson and said he had had hundreds of hours' experience in the air. I am now informed that that is an exaggeration of the amount of time, though he has, of course, had experience in the air. Lord Montague said in the House of Lords on 9th March that we had only one engine for every three aeroplanes. I do not know whether he refers to that date or to the present date, or to aeroplanes and engines in use, or in reserve, or those which we have ordered, or those which were used in the War, or in training, but I am informed that in any of these cases there is no sort of truth in that statement. Indeed, I believe there are rather more engines than aeroplanes. I hope hon. Members will be convinced that this matter is engaging the very earnest attention of a large number of really not stupid people, and that it is being attacked as powerfully as it can be in every possible way and with all the energy at our command.
8.0 P.M.
My right hon. Friend has replied very courteously, as he always does, to the points which were put before him. The Debate as a whole has been confined to the air question, and I think the House will welcome the assurance he has given that there is to be an inquiry into the serious allegations of my hon. Friend (Mr. Billing). Nothing else would have been satisfactory. Undoubtedly the hon. Member made allegations which must be replied to by the Government, and pending the inquiry, and understanding that the Committee will be of a judicial character, and that the terms of the inquiry will be satisfactory to the hon. Member, I think, so far as the allegations are concerned, they might be postponed till the result of that inquiry, but it is only fair that I should say that, having friends in the Flying Corps who have spent many months at the front, I can say of my own knowledge that there does exist grave anxiety in the minds of some of our very best pilots. I think that if the inquiry was extended to the opinions of our responsible pilots, very interesting evidence could be given. My right hon. Friend did not reply to what I think was rather an important statement by my hon. Friend the Member for the Brigg Division (Sir A. Gelder) that after a Zeppelin raid at one of our East Coast towns the War Office solemnly set up a dummy gun, surrounded by a guard of soldiers, the object of which, apparently, was to allay the anxieties of the inhabitants. I think I can assure the right hon. Gentleman from what I know that the statement was well founded, and that this dummy gun was moved round from town to town, wherever there had been a raid of Zeppelins, and was surrounded with a guard of soldiers in order to satisfy the public. I call that, in plain English language, fooling the public—absolutely fooling the public—and I really think that we ought to have a full and satisfactory reply from the Government for taking such action. It is only one of the many incidents that can be given of how the public have been treated for a very considerable time. It is fooling the public.
It might be fooling the Germans.
Oh, no, the Germans are much too well informed for that.
They will be now.
I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman means after his speech or not, but certainly not by anything I am saying. The matter has been repeated this afternoon publicly, and so little importance have the War Office attached to it that they do not even give any denial to the statement.
I must ask my right hon. Friend not to take that attitude. I did not reply because I could not reply. I had no information. I never heard of it before. How could I reply?
The War Office had not heard of the matter before! It has been a matter of common public knowledge for a very considerable time, and I think when it was given on the authority of my hon. Friend the Member for the Brigg Division inquiries ought to have been made and some reply given. However, I hope the War Office will make inquiries, and that we shall know exactly how much foundation there is in the statement. As to giving away information to the Germans by the fact that you had put up a dummy gun—as if the Germans could know whether it was dummy or not at night—I do not think I need seriously argue the matter. This has been entirely an Air Debate so far, and I think it has been a very interesting and very useful Debate, but there are other matters of a very important character which this Bill covers, and this is the time, before we allow the Bill to pass, when we have almost our final opportunity for a considerable time, to review some points of a very important military and domestic character. I think it is a real loss to the House of Commons and to the country that the Prime Minister has been prevented from being in the House during the important military Debates which have taken place at the previous stages of this Bill. From the public and the private point of view I think it has been a great national loss. I am sure, from the public point of view, that we regret it, because the House really is no better informed at this moment on some of the most vital questions of the hour than before the various Debates which were preliminary to the introduction of this Bill. From the private point of view every section of the House regrets the reason for the Prime Minister's absence, and those who have criticised him most, perhaps, sympathise with him most in the unfortunate cause which prevented him from being here. We rejoice that, as we understand, he is now in a state of convalescence.
As the Prime Minister, unfortunately, has not been here during these Debates, and as we have had no real statement on the main facts which have been brought before the House, in which hundreds of thousands of our people are interested, I would like to know what kind of report has been sent to the Prime Minister as to what the House of Commons is thinking in regard to the present recruiting position throughout the country. Has he been told that the House of Commons is satisfied? If so, I venture to say that that is a very misleading report. The House of Commons is not satisfied. No section of the House is satisfied with the action of the Government or the defence which they have made of their attitude generally in regard to the recruiting position. The true report to send to the Prime Minister would be that in the opinion of almost every section in the House the Government have managed, one way or another, to bring this recruiting question to almost an inextricable muddle, and that it is almost impossible to get out of it. It would take too long to inquire as to the causes which have brought about this state of things. One of the main causes is that at the beginning of the War the Government entirely failed to recognise—and I question whether they recognise it to-day—the magnitude of the task before them in regard to the War. In my opinion, if the Government had fully realised how gigantic was the task before them when the War was declared, they would at once have practically proclaimed a state of national service in this country even up to the age of fifty. That would have had an effect which would have been of the utmost importance, not only here but throughout the world. In the first place, it would have made our people realise exactly the tremendous issues that were at stake. I do not mean that necessarily all should join the Army, but that every man should be sent to do the work which he was best fitted to do in order to beat our enemies and make victory certain. What has been done? Experts have not been put to expert business. Proper fighting material has been lost in other directions, and up to this very moment the result is that we have different sections of our community practically beginning to quarrel between one another because of the action of the Government. That is a very serious thing. The Government never realised—and I do not know that they realise now—the stupendous character of the issues at stake.
Another contributory cause of our present position has been the manner in which compulsion was brought about in the first place. The "single men first" idea is an idea which cannot be logically defended from almost any point of view. It could only be defended as the only avail able method of getting the Government to move at all. The "single men first" idea is another of the causes which has brought about the present state of affairs. How can you defend the position that one man, who may be supporting his three sisters and a mother, should be conscripted while—
The right hon. Member is now animadverting upon the Act of Parliament. He cannot discuss that upon this Bill. We are now dealing with the Vote for the men and the money to be voted for the next financial year.
I think I appreciate the distinction, and I will not pursue that line of argument. I will only say that the action of the Government has caused dissatisfaction among large classes of the community who are willing to do their best in order to win this War. I say they have drifted into this muddle without any serious attempt to prevent it. A disaffected Army is almost a half-defeated Army. Therefore, before this Debate closes, I think we ought to have a clear and definite statement from the Government as to how they intend to deal with the present position. What is the root cause of the complaint of the married men? It is that they have been induced to join by misrepresentation.
Have they?
Yes. I think they have been induced to join by misrepresentation, and I will give my reasons for thinking so. They were told that only by attesting would they have the right of appeal. They were authoritatively informed to that effect. They were told on posters that if they were attested they would not be called up until all the single men were called up and until the other sections of married men were called up. I have a poster here which I will show to any hon. Members who desire to see it. In view of these facts, who can say that the Government part of the bargain has been carried out? It has not. They have been got in, in my opinion, by misrepresentation. Therefore, that is something which the Government ought to answer for. No guidance whatever has been given to them up to the present time as to what the policy of the Government is going to be in regard to remuneration. I know I cannot go into that matter at present, but the Government have the power to increase the wages which they are paying to them. I think that at once, and as soon as possible, they ought to make a statement as to what their intentions really are. Men are practically suffering great financial loss at the present time because the Government have not made up their mind on this matter. It is their duty to make up their mind, and we ought to have a statement before this Bill passes. This is the time to make any statement they have to make. We heard this afternoon that there is to be a statement to-morrow, but I understand on one branch of the subject only. That is a very important matter. Why is it not made to-day? Grievances come before Supply. Grievances come before money is passed. On the Motion for the Adjournment to-morrow, if the House is not entirely dissatisfied we are denied the right to divide. This is the day when this statement ought to have been made, or, rather, it ought to have been made at a very much earlier period.
The position at the present time is that the group system has practically failed. The original idea of the group system was that men would be called up according to their group and according to their year. But the group system has practically collapsed. They are all going, it is true, in different compartments, but they are all going in the same train at the same time, and there is no difference really in a later group from an earlier group. That was entirely misunderstood when the various statements were made in this House in regard to it. There is another very great injustice that is being meted out by the Government at the present time, and that is in calling up the men. These men give up their situations and sell the things they possess and go and report themselves, and they are sent back. The military authorities say, "We will write for you when we want you." That is a very great injustice. The man has lost his situation and he has got to go on hanging about the streets day after day until the War Office makes up its mind that they really want him. Why could not the War Office do what any business firm would do, and when they find they do not require men send a postcard in proper time, telling them so, in order that they can continue in their employment, and not suffer any undue financial stress? Another point on which there is ground for complaint is the manner in which they are taking men who are practically medically unfit, and putting them in what is called B 4 Class, or the sedentary class. These men are not capable of taking any military part at all owing to their physical condition, and it seems to me that this is a case of conscripting clerk labour as cheap labour. These men would be very much better employed at the work they understand outside, and they ought to be left there instead of being made to wear uniform and to do cheap work which might be done by women, or men of non-military age. Another matter which calls for attention is that there are a number of young men in Ireland who are escaping the effect of the law owing to the circumstance that Ireland is excluded from the scope of the Military Service Act. I know of cases of young men of military age going from this country to Ireland. Anyone can go over to Ireland. A number of men have gone over there not to escape military service but in the ordinary way of business, but this does not apply to them because they happen to be resident in Ireland. I think the Government ought to give some attention to this matter and bring all available men back from Ireland who ought to come under the Act.
The situation in which we find ourselves is a very unsatisfactory one, and it is largely due to the action of Ministers themselves. I saw a statement the other day that Lord Selborne had said he was not going to resign. He denied with indignation any suggestion of such a thing. I do not know whether Lord Selborne is going to resign, but it is very nearly time that somebody resigned on the part of the Ministers. I think my right hon. Friend (Mr. Tennant) is much too valuable to lose at the present time. We all appreciate his genial manner, his old-world courtesy, and his charming eloquence. The Government should not be surprised when people outside are discontented in regard to the manner in which they have managed this question. You have two responsible officials of the Government in public practically contradicting one another and attacking one another. Lord Derby was appointed as a Government agent to organise recruiting throughout the country. We all thought that he had the confidence of the Government and that when he made a statement it was equal to a statement by the Prime Minister, and thousands of men joined the Army in that belief. But we now find, to our surprise, Lord Selborne, speaking on behalf of the Government, denying that Lord Derby had ever any authority whatever for any of the statements which he made. That is a position which ought to be explained by the Government.
How can you expect people to have confidence in you when they see two principal men practically contradicting one another in public? Telegrams have been sent out calling for national unity. The first thing we want is Ministerial unity. Let Ministers agree among themselves as to some of the most vital and pressing matters of the moment. In view of Lord Selborne's contradiction with regard to Lord Derby we ought to have at once some Ministerial statement as to what the position of the Government is. If Lord Selborne had been a member in Mr. Gladstone's Cabinet and contradicted one of the Premier's principal advisers, as he did the other day, he would not have remained a member of that Cabinet for another twenty-four hours unless he had given some satisfactory explanation. I ask, therefore, and I am glad to see the Leader of the House (Mr. Bonar Law) in his place, did Lord Selborne speak on behalf of the Cabinet when he said that Lord Derby had no authority whatever to make any statement which he did make? When we were discussing the Military Service Bill some time ago the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board (Mr. Long) made a very important statement. Speaking on behalf of the Cabinet he said that the Secretary of State for War had said that all the men whom we required in order to win victory would be derived from the Derby groups and the Derby system.
No.
He said so, and—
Under the Act is what I understood.
What the right hon. Gentleman, speaking on behalf of the Cabinet said, was that he had the authority of the Secretary of State for War to-tell the House that all the men who were necessary in order to achieve victory would be derived from the measure which was then before the House.
Yes, but not the Derby groups. The right hon. Gentleman has said the Derby groups.
It was based on the Derby groups covered by the Military Service Bill. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman states that the President of the Local Government Board spoke on behalf of a united Cabinet and on behalf of the Secretary of State for War when he said that all the men we required in order to ensure victory in this War would be derived from the recent Military Service Act. Is that still the position of the Government? We are entitled, before this Bill passes, to know whether this is still the mind of the Government in regard to the present issue in reference to recruiting. The Government are asking too much when they ask us to pass a Bill of this important character without telling us exactly what their policy is. I submit that we ought to know to-night whether the statement of the President of the Local Government Board represents at this moment the ripe decision of the Government in regard to the number of men who are to be required. We are not asking too much when we ask for simple information on that point.
I would also ask the Government whether they are satisfied with their military intelligence? Are they satisfied with the manner in which they obtain information in regard to the circumstances and conduct of the War? Take, for instance, the size of the force that was sent on the Bagdad Expedition. What was the military information in regard to that? Who was responsible for it 'J Even laymen pointed out that the force was ridiculously small for the purposes for which it was sent. Then the hon. and gallant Gentleman told the Government what a dangerous undertaking it was to send so small a force. What was the official military intelligence in regard to that? I submit that whoever gave that intelligence, if the intelligence supported the sending of a small expedition of the kind, was entirely misinformed. Perchance the information was given and the Government was too busy with other things to read the reports sent in. In any case, the officials of the Intelligence Department ought to be held responsible for misleading the Government in regard to the size of the force necessary for the purpose which they had in view. As another instance I will take the statement of the Prime Minister in this House some time ago, when asking for a very considerable Vote of Credit, to the effect that the brightest spot in the whole of our horizon was the Mesopotamia Expedition. A short time after that our forces were surrounded, and they are surrounded at the present moment. Who is it that gives information of that kind to the Government? They ought to know all about it and test it before they come to the House of Commons and tell us things of that kind, which, within a very short time, are shown to be absolutely baseless. Take another instance. The Secretary of State for War, in a speech made long after we had left the Dardanelles of unhappy memory, said at a meeting here in London, "I never had any idea of the difficulties with which our forces had to contend until I went to the spot and saw them for my- self." What a statement to make as to the Intelligence Department! I suppose that that was one of the causes why the Government could not make, up their minds at the time and come to a decision. If there is one thing for which we ought to thank the right hon. Gentleman who is now in charge of the House it is for his persistence and vigour and courage-in inducing the Cabinet to come to a decision in regard to that unhappy affair. Here we have miscalculations as to three important matters, first, the size of the force which was sent on the Bagdad Expedition, next, the Government statement as to the position in Mesopotamia, and, lastly, the statement of the Secretary for War that he had no idea of the difficulties until he went out and saw them himself. And we had these endless reports from endless generals as to what the position was, and while there was this delay in coming to a decision, we all know how many scores of thousands of lives were lost and how many millions of money.
Having said so much, I may compliment the Government on having this morning disclosed the names of the regiments which were engaged in fighting the other day at the front. We have had complaints from the very beginning of the War of the secrecy, the indefensible secrecy, which has been attempted in regard to the great deeds of the War performed both by regiments and by individuals. In my opinion it has been pure War Office cussedness and nothing else that has prevented them from replying to what was a reasonable demand. What do we ask now? Simply that if a regiment distinguishes itself it shall be mentioned in despatches, and that there shall not be permanent secrecy. Why deny this credit to the regiments and to the men who deserve it? You cannot say for a moment that it will assist the enemy. That cannot be the reason, because on the same day or a day or two after the names of the gallant men and their regiments are published in the list of casualties. The name of a regiment is known in the trenches within twenty-four hours alter it arrives, and frequently, I am told, its name, the moment the men reach the trenches, is shouted by some private in the German trenches. In France they do things very differently. Every man who distinguishes himself is put in the roll of honour, which is sent to the place where he comes from, and there is absolutely no secrecy at all. They do just the same with the regiments. Why is it that the Government appear so stubborn in this matter?
I speak very feelingly, because I happen to know that at Loos the Scottish regiments discharged their duty with a valour that has never been beaten or surpassed at any period of our military history. They held positions which, humanly speaking, were impossible, yet their names are never mentioned, although practically every man of them, except a few, laid down their lives in order to save the position, unfortunately, because reinforcemnts never came. Why should not the Government really have a little imagination? The people of Scotland have done splendidly, but they would do better still in the different districts and counties if they knew that their efforts had been appreciated in the great battles in which they were engaged. It would have, as we know, a tremendous effect on the spirit of the men and on recruiting. We all know what the result of the mention of the London Scottish was with regard to men. Why is it that the Government are so slow in doing what obviously is a reasonable thing? I rejoice, therefore, that this morning for the first time a regiment is menioned, the Fusiliers, and I sincerely hope it will not be a spasmodic attempt on the part of the Government, but that in future we shall have the names of regiments who have discharged so gloriously their duties at the front.
What is the position? I think we must come to the conclusion that the House and the country are profoundly dissatisfied with the manner in which the Government are dealing with some of the most vital problems of the hour. Do they realise that the public are profoundly concerned with regard to the manner in which they are conducting the War? We are rapidly getting to a point when the interests of the Government may clash with the interests of the Cabinet. We have for a long time tried to induce them to take more vigorous action, to show more foresight, and to exercise a little more decision before it is too late. We have no idea, even at this late hour in the progress of the Bill, what the idea of the Government is as to the length of the War or as to the possibilities of the future. Am I overstating it, when I say that this War is going to last at least another three years, if you go on in the manner in which you are going on at the present time? I believe this War will last three, probably four, years—all my information leads me to that conclusion—unless the Government realise the necessity for quicker action and quicker decisions than in the past. If things go on drifting as they have drifted, we shall either have an unsatisfactory peace, which will be defeat for us, or we must be prepared for the war going on for three or four years more. The public outside have no idea of the possibility of it. They are led to believe, from what the Press Bureau sometimes issues, that it is only going to last for a few months. Nothing of the kind. Let there be no mistake about it, unless the Government show very much more ability the War will go on very much longer than anyone realises.
The Government have never realised that it has lost the confidence of the country. How can you test the confidence of the people outside? It can be tested in one or two different ways. You can do it through the men you meet in the street, in the clubs, in the highways, in the markets, and five out of every six men have no confidence in the Government, and the sixth man probably holds a War Office contract. You can take another test, the Press. I know it is the habit of some Members to sneer at the Press; I am speaking of the Conservative portion of the Press, and my right hon. Friend (Mr. Bonar Law) will follow me with interest in regard to this. There were three of his Conservative supporters in the London Press some time ago, but I believe since the time when those three Conservative newspapers, which gave him their warm support, two of them to-day have left him and have lost confidence in the Government, and the other one, which had confidence in the Government, has ceased to exist. I say, therefore, that taking the people outside and taking the Press, with any other ordinary test known to the public, the Government is losing confidence. There are other ways in which it is to be tested. There is the test of by-elections, which are a sphere in which the Government have shown considerable ability and discretion. I readily pay a tribute to the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Gulland), who is doing me the honour to listen to me at the present time. If the Government only managed the War half as well as they have managed by-elections, probably victory would have been much nearer than it is at the present time. The amount of organisation and of reinforcements brought up at the Market Harborough election was a tremendous exhibition of organising power.
At Merthyr the Government candidate, in spite of the support of the Government, was beaten by an overwhelming majority. Take Herts—we all know the result of that, although War Office officials went down there in their red caps. As regards the Market Harborough election, even the Government candidate began by casting condemnation on the Government, and said he was going to Westminster to put them right on the married men question in order to get them out of the muddle m which they had drifted; and not only that, but he is in favour of every man up to forty-five being placed at the disposal of the Government. Is that a victory for the Government? Nothing of the kind. The candidate got in because of his condemnation of the Government. I do not think there is a constituency throughout the length and breadth of the land at this moment where a Coalition candidate would be returned if he went down and defended out and out the policy of the Coalition Government. If he defended them in regard to the Dardanelles, if he defended them in regard to their delayed action, if he defended them in regard to their policy, if he told them all these facts and then asked them to support the Government in this War, he would not be returned. The people are getting tired of the Government always taking the wrong turn. They are getting tired of the Government and their continual postponements of decisions. For my part I have not the slightest personal feeling as to who is in the Cabinet or in the Government. I want a Cabinet who will get on with the work and justify the confidence which this House has throughout given without reserve. Hardly a speech was made in the House after this War began, and the Government were given the confidence of Members, whose support was continued even with all their delinquencies. I say public opinion outside is getting profoundly dissatisfied with the Government, and I think that their policy to-day as a Government is to get on or get out. They consider that there has been delay in everything and muddle in most things. I wish nothing more than that the Government would realise that that feeling is a growing feeling, and would face the issue and show, as I have said, greater vigour in regard to that great task which lies before us.
I do not propose to follow on the same lines which the Debate has occupied for the greater part of the day. I should like to have struck quite a different and separate note, and that was to have spoken of the great and growing danger of our merchant ship ping, but unfortunately I understand Mr. Speaker has ruled that subject out of order, and I shall not endeavour either to evade the ruling or trespass on that topic. I should very much like to say that in the Debate on the Address the First Lord of the Admiralty informed us that the Admiralty was in no way responsible for the requisitioning or waste of merchant tonnage. He stated that the military authorities were alone to blame, and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty also emphasised that, and yet when we come to the War Office Vote we are told that the War Office has nothing to do with it, and the Chairman of the Committee—
The hon. Member must see that he ought not to discuss the matter when, as he has mentioned, Mr. Speaker ruled it out of order.
Certainly I was not going to speak on the question of merchant shipping, but, with your permission, I was going to explain why we could not discuss it.
That would be challenging the decision of the Chair, and perhaps the hon. Member would proceed with his other subject.
Certainly, that being debarred, I return to the question of men, which I think is perfectly in order. I would like to point out that when the right hon. Member for Dundee (Colonel Churchill) made his incursion to this House from the trenches he warned the First Lord of the Admiralty of the danger which would arise from apathy in shipbuilding. On the following day the First Lord of the Admiralty gave as his excuse for not getting on more rapidly with more vessels the shortage of labour. The Minister of Munitions has also pointed out the great shortage of labour, and the President of the Board of Trade has made the same excuse for not getting on with the 500,000 tons of merchant shipping which is wanted. I understand that there are something like 200,000 men at the front who are unfit for military service, and some 250,000 men at home who are also unfit for military service, making a total of 450,000 men on the Army receiving Army pay and being fed at the expense of the taxpayer simply to show a paper Army which is perfectly useless. Those men would be very much better employed in civilian and commercial work. If we are to take the estimate of the Prime Minister, which was £300 per year for each soldier, it would represent an enormous sum, but I would make an allowance and take a margin of £250 per man, and that represents a cost of £112,500,000 wasted money per annum on those men. Each of those men, if he were employed on commercial or industrial work, would be earning probably £2 or £3 per week, and the profit of his work would also be considerably more. Taking it all round, the retention of those men, who are absolutely unfit for military service, is costing this country something over £200,000,000 per annum. I see my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the War Office present, and I should hope he would be able to either agree with those figures or dispute them, because the general impression is that the figures which I have given are correct, and it is well that the country should not labour under any wrong impression.
We have a great outcry now for skilled men. They are wanted in the shipyards, in the engine shops, in munition factories— everywhere. And where are they? They are either in the trenches or the hospitals, and a great many of them are in the sodden soil of Flanders. If we had universal service, as we ought to have had from the very first, and not necessarily military service, we should have had the right men in the right places. That may have been excusable at the beginning of the War, but it is no longer excusable. I will show what the War Office is still continuing to do. I am not going to mention ships except in so far as I am bound to mention ships, because ships carry the men. A ship which was loaded with a cargo of munitions, including armoured cars and machine guns, and carrying 550 trained, skilled mechanics, sailed from Liverpool on the 4th December for Archangel. Each of those 550 trained mechanics received 6s. per day or thereabouts, and also received a bonus of £10 each, I do not know whether from this Government or the Russian Government. Out of those 550 men about 300 were trained flying men. They left Liverpool on the 4th December, although it was very well known that the White Sea had been frozen from October last. The ship they were sent in was a ship that was entirely unsuitable for carrying those men. She had been taken off a South African berth, and those men were supported in the 'tween-decks without any heating arrangements, and some of them suffered from frostbite before they reached the verge of the White Sea. They had a most tempestuous voyage, and the men suffered severely, not only from cold but from other reasons. They were driven 800 miles out of their course, and they arrived on the confines of the White Sea by the 20th December. They lay there for some time, and eventually they were ordered to Alexandrovsk, being a small Russian village or port in Lapland where there is open water. When they arrived there they found there were no possible means of communication with the outer world except by sledges.
This seems to be in direct contravention of Mr. Speaker's ruling to which the hon. Member referred. He cannot possibly connect it with the Vote for men.
I was going to show what became of the men.
Yes, but the hon. Member might go round the world in that way.
May I point out that those men would have been useful and are now in Lapland?
That might be said of any other place. The hon. Member must direct himself to the Motion before the House.
I will leave the men in Lapland and return to the Under-Secretary for War. I presume that I shall be in order in referring to the speech which he made on the 14th March on the Army Estimates. The right hon. Gentleman told us that he was seized with the importance of aerial defence, and that as far as London was concerned the organisation was complete. He also told us that the first matter we had to consider was intelligence. I think we may take that in more senses than one. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of the great number of horses and other animals which had been brought to this country from overseas. I do not propose to discuss the question of horses, except in so far as it affects men. A million horses and mules have been brought overseas to this country. I am told that standing in some of the base camps in France there are 70,000 horses. These horses require a large number of men to attend to them, who might possibly be better employed in the trenches. Furthermore, these animals require to be fed. The Under-Secretary informed us that of the animals brought overseas only 1 per cent. was lost on board ship, and he took credit for that. I do not propose to deal with that question. The right hon. Gentleman told us that the mortality of all these animals from first to last did not exceed 10 per cent. We have therefore 900,000 animals at present, which require to be fed and attended to by a large body of men. The question is, Would I be in order on this occasion in discussing questions concerning the Board of Trade in connection with shipping?
That depends on what are the questions.
I regret that the President of the Board of Trade is not here, although I told him that I proposed to criticise him in connection with breaches of his duty. I should be glad if he could be called. Meanwhile, I will return to the Under-Secretary for War. In the speech to which I have already referred it struck me that the achievement of which he was proudest was the great number of garments produced by the War Office. He seemed to be more proud of the sartorial achievements of his Department than of anything else. I should have thought that we might have had a more martial speech than one about garments. At the present moment everyone is demanding men for the Army. Men are wanted in every direction and of every age. I confess with pride that I have done my best to send into the Army every man whom I could induce to go. Having been an ardent conscriptionist for the last twenty-five years, I cannot be accused of saying anything to discount the efforts of those who want every man brought into the Army. But there must be some proportion or perspective observed in this matter. The men who are sent into the Army require to be fed, clothed, equipped, and paid. All that cannot be done without money. We cannot produce money without our export trade; we cannot carry on our export trade without men. The thing works round in a very vicious circle. Therefore, I am a great believer in universal service—not necessarily military service, but universal service for all men, so that the right man could be put in the right place.
For everybody?
Everybody would do his best in the national cause. Under such a system my hon. Friend would be doing what he is doing now; I would be doing what I am now—that is giving the best service I can in the national interest, perhaps in handling a fleet of steamers, and I would have been very glad to have been able, in popular phraseology, to do my bit. Perhaps the hon. Member is not aware that I did a great deal to raise one of the finest Cavalry regiments in the British Army, and my great regret was that I was not able to accompany them when they went across the water. Therefore I cannot be misunderstood on that point. I regret very much that I am not permitted to deal with the vital question of merchant shipping. It is on the merchant shipping that we depend for our trade and our supplies, and on it our Army and our Navy are also absolutely dependent. If the President of the Board of Trade were here I would ask him, as the Minister in charge of trade and shipping, to give an account of his stewardship. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman, his attention having been called to the great waste of shipping by the military in the Eastern Mediterranean, sent out inspectors, or something of that sort. I understand that he has their report. I should like to know what report he has to make. Has his attention been directed to the alarming scarcity of shipping and the effect that it has upon the position of this country? Has he protested against the extravagant use of ships in sending them on long ballast journeys? Can he explain why, when bringing wheat home from Australia, that wheat has been sold and given to Spain? Has he protested to any of the Government Departments—to the Minister of Munitions or to the Colonial Secretary— against extravagance in connection with ships sent out in ballast for nitre? Does he know the wasteful use which the Admiralty are making of certain ships which they have requisitioned to carry coal to Italy? The extraordinary state of affairs that exists is that not only have the ships to carry coal from this country to Italy for no freight whatever, but the shipowner has to contribute something to the Italian purchaser. If the President of the Board of Trade were here he might offer some explanation of this most extraordinary state of affairs. This is all done for our Allies. Many times I wish that we were either all Allies or all belligerents. The neutral question is one upon which I should like to have the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman. He is not here, however, and as he cannot answer questions which he has not heard I do not propose to trespass upon the attention of the House, but I hope to have an opportunity later on of dealing with these and many other serious questions.
But I do call the attention of the Financial Secretary to the War Office to this question of men. I am told on good authority that the numbers I have given are correct. I should like to know if he has any information upon the point. I can only speak for myself. With regard to the men I have sent into the Service from my clerical staff, one of the them, a highly trained technical man, who was my private secretary and whose salary I am paying the whole time he is away, joined in the early days of August, 1914, was taken into the orderly room as an orderly clerk and is still there doing work that a boy scout might do. That is a great waste of material. It is only one instance out of many. I should like, too, to point out to those people who are clamouring for every man to be put into the Army—and I am just as keen as they are that every available man should be in the Army—that we must consider our trade and our commerce if we are to win this War. I would remind lion, and right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench that during the great Napoleonic wars Pitt did not, to any extent, send an army to the Continent. We won that war, and we won it by our Navy, by our trade, and by financing others to fight for us. If at the present time we had a statesman of the calibre of Pitt I am convinced that, instead of launching out as we have done in various directions, such as the ghastly Gallipoli gamble, the Dardanelles disater, and into Mesopotamia—these awful disasters!—that have weakened us, not only in men, and money, but in prestige, we would have prosecuted the War in such a manner as to ensure, at the conclusion of it, that there would be a century of European peace, and Britain's commercial supremacy.
It is very curious that the two previous speakers were at pains to point out the sins of the Government. They did not hesitate to give us illustrations of the wicked gamble in human lives at Gallipoli, Bagdad, Loos, and other places. In short they said, so far as the conduct of the War is concerned, that this Government could not be trusted to conduct it properly. I am going frankly to agree with them that we cannot look with any degree of satisfaction to any of our military experiences. We cannot look either to East or West and say that we are proud of the achievements of our military organisation. Curiously enough, however, whilst I share the views of these hon. Gentlemen in regard to the blunders of the Government, and whilst I think it is a very tragic business to talk about human life as being a gamble, yet my hon. Friend who has just sat down, and my hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy, notwithstanding the blunders and incapacity of the Government, do not hesitate to say that they are prepared to give them still more human lives with which to gamble. I want to point out the inconsistency of the whole position. I put it to these hon. Gentlemen, and I put it to the House, what do they think is going to be the impression of the ordinary man in the street, of the ordinary working man, who is, day after day, told that the Government are gambling with human lives; who are told, day after day, of the failures of the military authorities; who are told clearly and definitely by Members of this House that the Government are not fit to run this War?
I should say that the answer to the man in the street would be that, having entered into this War, we are bound at all costs to win it.
It is a very curious way of doing it. Hon. Members say that these people are not to be trusted.
I did not say so.
9.0 P.M.
That was the essence of the hon. Member's speech. He developed his remarks to show his justification for holding the view as to Gallipoli and these other places where there was utter failure. The hon. Member then follows it up by saying that in those failures there was a large loss of human life. He turns round and says that the ordinary man in the street is going to say, "Never mind, let us give them some more lives with which to gamble." I am going to put it seriously to the House that the impression of the man in the street will be, "No, we are not going to allow our sons to be conscripted if this is the way we are going to be treated." I want to develop that point.
It is the fault of the House of Commons.
The fault of the House of Commons is that we have power to deal with the Government—
How would bon. Members opposite vote?
Yes, yes, but if the hon. Member will put down a Motion of want of confidence in the Government, and take the Whips off—
You went into the Lobby the other day?
That rather disposes of the argument that so far as the country is concerned they are sick of the Government, because it is fairly evident that those who did not go into the Lobby with us were afraid to risk their constituencies. They cannot have it both ways. My right hon. Friend behind me said that of six people in the street whom he met five were disgusted with the Government, and the sixth was satisfied because he happened to have a contract with the War Office. It may be that an explanation of the attitude of the other five is that they are wanting contracts and have been disappointed. In any case, I want to tell hon. Members that the time has arrived that we should, even this evening, have a clear and definite statement about the position of the married men. I join issue with those people who are giving encouragement to the married men's cry for every single man to be put into the Army. I can conceive nothing worse in the national interest than the attempt to create the feeling that these married men have been deliberately had. I am satisfied that a clear examination of the position of single men first, or even single men before any married man, will not bear a moment's investigation. What has happened? A certain section of the Press—and indeed, if we are to judge from speeches of Members of this House, Members too—seriously argue that the pledge given to married attested men was that before they were called upon every single man had to be put into the Army. Examine it for a moment! Would any hon. Member like to travel on the railway tomorrow with a single signalman taken out of his signal-box in order that a married navvy could go and do his job merely on the ground that one is a married man and the other is a single man? You have only got to examine the position to see the absurdity of it!
My hon. Friend must not look at me as though I dissented from all he said.
I may be looking at my hon. Friend, but I am addressing the House. I was looking at him because he is the pleasantest man in the House.
What about the rest of us?
You were looking the other way. At all events, I do submit that that is the danger of this agitation. The real danger is to create in the minds of the married men that the pledge meant every single man to go first. It is absurd, on the face of it, but I do agree that the pledge did mean that any single man who went into a starred trade after 15th August would be dealt with first. I submit that the Government can easily determine that situation. They have the record of starred trades, and therefore it is an easy matter for them to deal with. On the other hand, I do deprecate in the strongest possible way this tendency to create a feeling of jealousy, suspicion, and even hatred as between single and married men, or even between attested married men and unattested married men. At the same time, I make it perfectly plain that the suggestion that is now being made for an extension of the Military Service Act as a solution of this problem is, in my humble judgment, the most disastrous way of dealing with the situation. If any illustration is required there is the position on the Clyde to-day. No one deprecates more than myself the position on the Clyde. No one deprecates more than myself having to listen to the statement from that box today. But will any hon. Member honestly get up and say that the real cause of that is not a deep-rooted determination on the part of the working classes against coercion?
The unfortunate thing is that those who opposed the Military Service Bill and gave an absolute promise and pledge that they would give no countenance to industrial disputes, because we have kept our word,, because we have been true to that promise, because we have done all we could to stop industrial trouble, some people coolly assert that that is the best evidence that the country is waiting for and will welcome the extension of the Military Service Bill. All I have got to say is this: I get in touch with the working classes as much as any man in this House, and, if I am any judge of their views, nothing would be more disastrous to this country, nothing would be more resisted, than any attempt to extend this Act. Therefore, I do hope that the Government will pay heed to what is happening in the country. I hope they will take notice of the resolutions of the various trade unions, which are only being kept quiet to-day in the anxiety of many of the leaders not to have industrial trouble. At the same time, I believe there is an easy way of dealing with this married man's question. Let us examine it for a moment. First, what is the difference between the type of attested married man to-day and the married man who is already in the Army? I think, in order fully to deal with the situation, we have got to realise that there are a large number of married men to-day differently circumstanced from large numbers of men who have already gone. With regard to the main question as to whether there should be any difference between one married man and another, I have no hesitation in saying "No." But, on the other hand, there are special circumstances that ought to be dealt with in a special way. Take the men who are essential to certain businesses. Take the men who are not what one would call manual or industrial workers. I submit that the first essential to deal properly with those men is to adopt some system that will keep them as far as possible in connection with and in touch with their business. That will have this advantage: Not only will it enable the man to render service to the employer, but it will enable the employer to rearrange his business with the minimum of inconvenience. I think that could be met by a system of part-training in given centres, and I believe that the railways, being under Government control to-day, could render very valuable assistance, as well as economical assistance, in this direction. For instance, workmen's trains are common to ordinary industry, and the basis of those workmen's trains is that between five and 6.30 in the morning they are able to convey workmen to a given centre and take them back at night. I put it to the House that we could in this country have a large number of training centres where, instead of workmen's trains, soldiers' trains could be run night and morning. It would not interfere with the ordinary railway service to-day, and it would have the advantage not only of conveying the men to a given centre, but of enabling these men to be sleeping home every night. That would go a long way, in my judgment at least, to ease one part of the situation, and that, coupled with a system of part-training on three days a week, would enable not only the man to be home every night, and give the wife the advantage of the billeting allowance because he was sleeping home, but it would also give the employer an opportunity of being in direct touch with his men, and by that means, I believe, you would ease the whole burden of the type of married men with whom I am dealing.
With regard to the other side of the question, clearly the Government must take some responsibility. I dissent entirely from this idea of a moratorium, because I think there could be nothing more disastrous, nothing more unwise, than to send men into the Army with the knowledge that whilst they were fighting our battles they were piling up a debt afterwards they could never possibily meet. On the other hand, I do not think that it is a way out of the difficulty to say merely that the landlord must bear this burden, because there are hundreds of thousands of working men themselves who own their own houses. In my own society we have at this moment a couple of thousand men who are owning houses from £150 to £350 on an easy system of repayment of principal and interest. Now, many of these men let their houses. Some of these men are already fighting, and their wives have gone home, and the houses are let to someone else. It would be an absurd position to suggest that you would put the charge of that rent on to the poor individual who is himself probably in the fighting line. I submit you would get over that difficulty by the Government themselves frankly and freely taking the responsibility, and I think the same could be said with regard to insurance premium. We would have no right to ask the insurance company to bear that burden, and I say clearly that that is a charge for which the Government themselves must be responsible. It is a charge that the Government should bear, and, as my right hon. Friend has just said, the time has arrived when the Government should make a clear and definite statement on the position. I also want to refer to the system that is now in operation, which is nothing more or less than industrial compulsion. We had a very definite statement when the Military Service Bill was before the House that no industrial compulsion was intended. Will anyone suggest that this system of taking hundreds and thousands of medically unfit men, giving them work that the War Office themselves determine, is nothing more or less than compulsion of the worst possible kind. These men would render better service in their own employment, because they are often taken and given absolutely useless employment. They are dear labour to the State, and therefore I submit that on every conceivable ground the War Office themselves ought to immediately say that these people would be more usefully employed in following their own occupation, when it is known perfectly well that they can never be made good soldiers.
I now come to what perhaps is the most serious aspect of the question, and one that I say without hesitation ought not and will not be tolerated by the trade unionists of this country. The railway companies of this country are the only employers to-day that have got the absolute right to defy tribunals and anybody else. The ordinary employer in badged or starred trades is compelled to go before a tribunal and prove that a man is indispensable to his service. The tribunal then have the right to determine whether the case is made out or not. With regard to the railway companies, the Government have decided, largely on the representation of the railway companies themselves, that if a railway company sends an intimation to any tribunal that a man's service is necessary, that tribunal has no right to try the case. As a matter of fact, instructions have been issued that even if men are summoned under the Military Service Act the men themselves have only got to intimate that they are employés of a railway company and they are released from further service. Clearly that places a tremendous weapon in the hands of the railway companies. When the Derby scheme was working, large numbers of our men were genuinely suspicious of the whole scheme. They said, "Is this going to be the means of allowing railway companies to victimise and take advantage of prominent men?" Without hesitation we said that we did not think that was possible, but even if it was, we should be able to deal with it.
When the Bill was going through the House I took advantage of the Debate to point out this danger, but we were assured that there was no possibility of any such advantage being taken. What has happened? A fortnight ago I drew attention in the House to the fact that the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Company refused to claim exemption for a fireman and a shunter who happened to be prominent members of our society, notwithstanding the fact that one of them had been working on an average for thirteen hours a day, and on one occasion for nineteen hours. We have since been informed that the Taff Vale Railway Company have also decided not to apply for exemption for a platelayer, and the latest case is in regard to a member of my own executive committee. If this House thinks it can deal lightly with 320,000 and with impunity say that we will allow one of the executive committeemen of that society to be victimised, I am afraid there is going to be serious trouble. A fortnight ago the executive committee was called together. One of our Scotch members, by the name of Duddie, was refused leave of absence to attend the executive committee. Negotiations were opened up with the general manager, who very courteously replied that the reason leave of absence was refused was because this man could not possibly be spared, that is to say that although he had been elected by the whole of the Scotch railwaymen they actually could not spare him for one week to attend his duties as an executive committeeman of the society. For three days he was refused, and ultimately the general manager made some arrangement to release him for four days, and he attended his committee on the society's business. One would naturally have thought that in these days that an employer would at least realise that he ought to do all he could to encourage his men to fulfil their representative duties, and especially when it is remembered that no executive committee has done more for industrial peace than the committee of the railway men themselves.
At all events, as I have explained, the general manager made it perfectly clear that this man's services were so valuable to the railway company that they could not spare him for a week. Last week, immediately he gets back after the four days' leave of absence, he is summoned to appear under the Military Service Act because he is a single man and he immediately puts in a claim for exemption on the grounds of a conscientious objector, and the railway company, to the amazement of everybody, makes no application for his exemption. The military representative says that no claim being made by the railway company the company has admitted that his services are not indispensable, with the result that Scottish railwaymen at this moment are absolutely persuaded that this is simply a mean attempt to victimise a man because he is a prominent member of the union. Can we wonder at the kind of feeling that is existing on the Clyde? This man is on the Clyde, and he is one of the Scottish members. This is a man who a fortnight ago the railway company said they, could not spare, and then a week from that time they actually take advantage of the power they possess to practically compel this man to be forced into the Army. I do submit that shows a very serious state of affairs. It is just the way to encourage the belief, which some of us have deprecated, that the real ulterior motive of all those who talk of military service is to get power to take advantage of the working classes of this country. I can only hope that my drawing the attention of the House to this state of things for the second time will have the effect of putting a check upon this conduct. If it does not, and if the military authorities and the Government allow railway companies to act in this way, then the responsibility must rest with them, and they will not be able to say that they have not been warned.
I beg the House to remember that nothing is more calculated to divide the nation and to create bitterness, yea, and to render our success in this War impossible, than the glib suggestion that you have got simply to extend the Military Service Act. All the evidence from all the constituencies proves that there is organised and determined opposition to it. Every conference that has been called has rejected it, though some of us who have been opposed to it have used our influence to prevent further action following. Having regard to the serious position of the War, and having regard to the fact that if we are to emerge successfully unity is the first essential, I do beg the House not to play with this question. The South Wales miners showed in one day what they thought of the Munitions Act. The Clyde workers unfortunately—I regret that they have brought the matter to an unfortunate and dangerous pass—have shown that the working classes of this country are opposed to coercion, because they know that wherever it has been in operation it has always been used against them. They are opposed to it because they believe that though fighting for liberty their victory will be robbed almost of its glory if it means that they have had chains put round their own necks. Whilst I am satisfied that there is opposition to the Government, whilst I am satisfied that the Government delays far too long in arriving at their decisions, I do hope that this House will not glibly talk about Conscription, notwithstanding the Resolution which I understand has been passed by a large number of those who have hitherto called themselves Liberals. They will get a shock for their Liberalism if they assume that is the opinion of the country. The group called by one of my hon. Friends "the Ginger Group" have already made up their minds on this question. They have already declared for what is known as National Service.
This could be developed into a debate on legislation if the hon. Member pursued the topic too far. We are only dealing, of course, with administration on the Consolidated Fund Bill.
I am sorry, but the presence of my hon. Friend (Sir F. Cawley), the chairman of the group, tempted me into that channel. Whilst I still hold the view that the issues involved in this War are of so far-reaching a character and so vital to the future of this country that I want to see us win the War, yet I am saisfied that it will not be won and the victory will not be achieved by the methods which are being suggested for the break-up of the unity of the country. No one deprecates more than myself the continual attempt to discredit the Government. It is only fair to say that much of the campaign now being conducted under the guise of military service is merely a campaign to discredit the Government. I have been in many industrial disputes and in many battles, but I have never known any efforts to win a battle on the lines of trying to throw suspicion on your leaders. It is far better to have healthy, strong criticism. This continual attempt simply to discredit the Government, simply to undermine the Government, end simply to pit one Minister's ability against another, this kind of intrigue is doing more harm than anything I know to break the unity of the nation.
The hon. Member who has just sat down has made a speech which, in its later passages, is very similar to some speeches we heard from him when the Military Service Bill was before the House. He has told us in language which amounts almost to a threat that those people who think that this War cannot be ended without, our Generals having sufficient forces, without our battalions being kept at full strength, and who think that cannot be done without compulsory service are very likely, when they go to their constituencies, to learn that the need for their service is no more. As far as I am personally concerned, I am willing to face the risk. I do not think we ought to consider just what is the value of our seats to ourselves. We ought at this particular time to consider what is best for the nation and how we can best win the War. My hon. Friend spoke a good deal about unity. It is always amusing to me to notice that those people who opposed the Military Service Bill through thick and thin, who voted against the Government in the Lobby, and who were prepared to turn them out of office, are those very people who speak most about the unity of this country. The party with which I am connected did not vote against the Government, and they are not continually abusing the Government. The party with which my hon. Friend is connected did abuse the Government for bringing in the Military Service Bill. They voted against the Bill, and were prepared to turn the Government out of office. Therefore, I say that they are the party of disunity.
You abuse them without being prepared to turn them out.
I wish the hon. Member would give instances where I have abused them at all. My hon. Friend is quite entitled to say that this dispersion of our forces in Gallipoli, in Salonika, and in Mesopotamia is a great mistake. We are all agreed about that, but that is only criticism, and a little healthy criticism does a great deal of service. The hon. Member for North-Western Lanarkshire (Mr. Pringle) practically said the same thing the other night. He said we had had unnecessary expeditions undertaken, weakening our military resources and tending to bring disaster upon us. That was in reference to Gallipoli. I agree, not only that it was a disaster, but it was a humiliating disaster. It was more than humiliating, because it depleted our resources. The Navy had to undertake the transport. It was consequently weakened, and our fighting power on both sea and land suffered. What inference did my hon. Friend draw from it? He drew the inference that we had an Imperial Staff which, if it got all the men it asked for, would indulge in all sorts of foolish expeditions. On that account he deprecated the Government having any more men found for them, and apparently our generals were to be told that they must carry on the War as best they can, with what men they have got.
As a matter of fact I believe our disasters have been attributable, to a large extent, to the fact that our generals have not had sufficient forces at their disposal. The Government have gone into these adventures without counting the cost. There has been a fatal error on the part of the Government. It is one which all Governments commit, and that is to underrate their opponents. This Government underrated the strength of the Germans and the strength of the Turks, and, as a consequence, we have had these disasters. My deduction from these disasters is not the same as that of the hon. Member for North-West Lanark. In my opinion, instead of refusing more soldiers, additional forces are necessary to carry out any enterprises the authorities may think desirable. When there has been a disaster, when there has been great faults of foresight, we ought to have an inquiry into the matter in order to discover who is to blame. But the Government never seems to think of that solution at all, and I therefore cannot wonder that my hon. Friend the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) thinks the British public are beginning to question the desirability of sending more soldiers out to meet with disaster, when there is no inquiry as to the cause of the disaster, and the men responsible are presumably to be left to commit the same faults and same errors of judgment on some future occasion.
I do not know who is responsible for the inadequacy of the forces we sent to Gallipoli. I am given to understand there in no Imperial Staff. There was one before the War, but several of the members went out to the War, and the only one left was Lord Kitchener. He, I understand, constituted the Imperial Staff, and he is the man we have to look to for an explanation of the disasters that occurred in Gallipoli. Although he is attacked at times, nobody seems to ask him about the matter. I do not wish to accuse him, but I do think that, until we get some explanation as to who is to blame, it is the man at the head of affairs whom we ought to hold responsible. Consequently Lord Kitchener ought to tell us why these disasters took place. I understand that General Stopford, who has been blamed for the disaster at Suvla Bay, wants an inquiry. Sir Ian Hamilton lays some blame for that unfortunate engagement upon General Stopford, but that officer declares that he is not to blame, and that if an inquiry is granted he will be able to show he is not. Why cannot he have an inquiry? In the result it might show not only that perhaps he is not to blame, but it might go a little higher up and show who really was to blame for the disaster, not only at Suvla Bay but in other parts of the Dardanelles at different times. All these things ought to be inquired into. The Dardanelles expedition is over, and it cannot harm anybody now to say who was to blame; at any rate, I think the country ought to know, because we do not want the same people to have another chance of making similar mistakes in the future. That, in my opinion, is the proper way of treating these different misfortunes.
I do not think it necessary myself to curb the activities of our generals, but if I thought they could not do better, the ultimate conclusion I should be driven to would be that the sooner we make peace on any terms the better it will be. But I do not think that is our position. I believe that if our generals at the front are given adequate support we shall sooner or later win this War. But we shall not win it unless they have that adequate support, and I do not believe we can give them the number of men necessary unless we have some kind of general compulsory service. That is the proper way in which to call on the British citizen to defend his country. The opponents of compulsory service lay the blame for the present position on the married men. It was not Lord Derby's Report that made the married men dissatisfied, it was the married men who pointed out that there were a lot of single men who were not going to the war, and thus brought about the Derby Report. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon), when he lays the blame for compulsion upon the Derby Report, is making a mistake. The married men brought the Compulsion Bill upon the country themselves, before the Derby Report was issued, because they practically said that they were not going to enlist as long as there were a great many single men available for service. The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow talked about the Derby Report, stating that there were large reservoirs of single men. I have no doubt myself that there were a great many single men, but it is far too early yet to say, as he seemed to think, that the Military Service Act is a failure. It has only had a very few weeks of trial yet, therefore it cannot be said to be a failure.
The whole speech of the right and learned Gentleman for Walthamstow was an attempt to prove that compulsory service was a failure. He talked about the married men being tricked and cajoled. The voluntary system can vie with any other system as far as trickery and cajolery are concerned. It is quite true that the first million men did enlist voluntarily, but for the last six or twelve months it has only been a so-called voluntary system. Every trickery, every cajolery, and every threat has been used to try to make men join the Army. What about the wounded men? Anybody who knows anything about the hospitals knows perfectly well that very few of the men who come back wounded want to go back again. Some of them have been wounded two or three times, but they are compelled to go back. What is there voluntary about that? I have never heard those hon. Members who are so opposed to compulsion use any words of sympathy for the poor wounded who have to go back after being wounded at the front, not once or twice, but sometimes even three times. This voluntary system is only a so-called voluntary system. For my part, I would very much prefer a straightforward compulsory system to a hypocritical voluntary system. The so-called voluntary system is not only hypocritical; it is undemocratic and unsound. My hon. Friends in this House often laud it. The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow called it a "glorious free system," or something to that effect. It is a system about which there is no freedom. Men brag of the voluntary system and the number of men obtained under it, but when the men are obtained by cajolery, threats, persuasion and almost every art and mean way in which they can possibly be obtained, there is nothing voluntary about it.
The large employers were asked, either by the War Office or the Government, not to engage men who were eligible for the Army. What is the meaning of that? That other people must turn them out because they are eligible for the Army. What an idea that is! That is the glorious voluntary system about which my hon. Friends talk, and about which they wish to brag to future generations and say, "What a grand thing it will be in future if we can say that we have raised all these millions of men by the voluntary system." As a matter of fact, they were threatened and starved into the Army. It would be better to have a system under which every man is called upon to do his duty as a citizen of this country, because the system under which we have been getting our Armies has brought the Government into bad odour and they are accused of bad faith. In every way the so-called voluntary system has proved a failure. The hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) spoke about dissatisfaction in the country in regard to compulsory service, and said that the men were suspicious that the compulsory system would be used to their detriment after the War. I do not wonder at the working men being suspicious of what compulsory service will mean to them after reading the speeches made in this House. One member of the party led by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow went down to the country and told his audience that the Compulsory Bill, which his own Government had brought in—at one time he was a member of that Government—was not brought in in any way in order to get more men for the Army or to help the prosecution of the War, but was brought in to rivet the chains upon them. When an hon. Member of this House goes down to the country and says that to the working men, how can we expect that the working men will not be suspicious?
Who was this?
The hon. Member for the Elland Division (Mr. Trevelyan). Not only was that speech made in the country, but practically the same sort of speeches have been made in this House; in fact, the hon. Member for Derby said much the same thing to-night. It is the House of Commons that has brought about the greater part of the dissatisfaction in the country. If the Members of the House of Commons would loyally support their own Government and would not make these sort of speeches, which cause suspicion among the working classes in the country, those suspicions would not exist. As it is, the working men of the country are suspicious and if we want more men for the War, as I believe we shall, I am afraid that general compulsory service, of which I am very much in favour, will be bitterly opposed. The whole manhood of the nation have a duty to perform. It is their duty, without fear or favour, to protect; the country, and it is the Government's duty, without fear or favour, to call upon every citizen, high and low, to perform his duty in such a time as this.
Like other Members of the House I have listened, as I always listen, with respect to the hon. Baronet, although I very much demur to some of his conclusions. I really like the hon. Baronet as the leader of the party better than a large number of his followers. To my mind they are exceedingly pessimistic. Styling themselves the "Ginger party," they are rather more like mustard plasters, and generally attack the Government, which, I think, is worthy of very much better criticism than is very often offered by members of that party. One would almost imagine from the criticism which has been made by one Member after another that the whole management of the War is simply one gigantic blunder from beginning to end, that our Government is bad, our military people are inefficient, and the Navy does not know its business; and it will really make fine reading for the. German newspapers to realise that the Members of this House of Commons take great pains to emphasise every mistake that is made, whereas when the full explanation is forthcoming a very large number of these things called "blunders" may prove not to be blunders of the Government at all. They may have been necessities brought about by our Allies and the number of engagements into which we have had to enter.
We have had no explanation.
10.0 P.M.
There are times when explanations can be made and there are, times when it is difficult for them to be made, and the present is a difficult time. I wish to ask those representing the War Office, not in any fault-finding way, to consider a matter in regard to which I have had a great many complaints, and that is the punishment of men for non-arrival to time and for various mistakes which they may make as soldiers, and not only the punishment of the men, but of their wives and families. Would it not be possible in an administrative way to punish a man who has committed an offence and to leave the wives and children at home unpunished, as they are really not partners in the offence? In relation to the attested married men difficulty I have not had a single letter from my Constituency, though I have received one letter from the neighbouring constituency of Sunderland, but I am interested that justice should be done to these men, and I should like, together with other hon. Members who have spoken, to ask the Government to come to some generous conclusion, at the same time without any injustice to the married men who have already enlisted and are at present in the Army. We have our pension committees which deal with the allowances which should be paid within certain limits to the dependants of soldiers. Might I ask that a similar principle might be extended, and very much enlarged, because you could lay down no flat rule which would fit in with the varied circumstances of the classes which have now enlisted? There is this to be said in favour of these men, that they do not wish in any way to get out of doing their duty. That being so, can the Government state to-night that they will see that they are generously treated, and do it in such a way that it can be adapted to the needs of each particular person by local committees or by some tribunal of that kind, in order that real needs will be met in a real practical way? We have also set up a Patriotic Fund, which has to deal in a sense with pensions, and I think it will be a very wise proposal to deal in a like way with the Derby attested men. All the circumstances which have brought me into relation with the War Office have been of the most cordial character, and, while I have listened to a great many of the critics, I really do not find in my mind, looking round the House, twenty-three more capable men than those who already occupy that bench, and I think the House might spend a great deal more time in encouragement of the Ministry rather than in criticism. I know they call it eloquent criticism, but I am not so much struck with it myself. It seems to me to be said very often in a very savage and disrespectful manner. I hope it will be possible to attend to my point about the punishment of wives and children, and I shall be grateful if it can be done.
I also feel that a great deal of the criticism which has been levelled at the Government has not been of a very useful kind. The hon. Baronet who leads what is called the "Ginger party" on the Liberal side, although he made helpful suggestions at the latter part of his speech, spent the first five minutes or so in complaining of the Dardanelles Expedition and the dissipation of money and of forces upon that expedition, called for an inquiry, and told us that General Stopford had asked for it, but did not tell the House, as it has been told by the Under-Secretary for War, that to hold an inquiry during the War would be extremely difficult, and would involve calling officers from the front and from various other places where they are doing useful work, and would probably engender a great deal of very strong feeling in all parts of the Army and all parts of the world, and do infinite harm, and I think when the chairman of an important War Committee makes criticisms of that kind, and calls for inquiry of that kind, the House ought not to pass it by as being of no importance, because, after all, he represents a very considerable number of Members in the House, and when he says the object of criticism is to be helpful, to make the Government more useful, to make it take up new proposals more energetically, we must remind him that such proposals, coming from him as representing a large number of Members of the House, do not help to strengthen the Government, but are merely the expression of a desire to have a lot of what I suppose he would call dirty linen washed in public, which could only, I think, add to the country's difficulties, and add to the uncertainty which his Committee is rather prone to increase—the uncertainty in the minds of a small number of people who think the military machine is not what it ought to be. It is not the duty of the House of Commons, it is certainly not the duty of Members who call themselves supporters of the Coalition Government, to aid in that direction. After all, the Dardanelles Expedition was a great adventure. It happened to fail. Great adventures have failed before, but there has been a good deal to say for them in spite of the fact that they failed. We all know that a man who never makes a mistake never makes anything. I expect the Liberal Imperial Committee, which is the Ginger Committee, would have been the first to take credit for the expedition if it had been successful. The expedition failed, however, and they apparently use it as part of their stock-in-trade to run the Government down.
I desire to call the attention of the Financial Secretary to the War Office to one or two small points in which I should like to have his assistance. At the commencement of the War appeals were made to various skilled trades to recruit. The men in these trades were badly wanted. The trades which they were able to carry on were wanted by the Army, and they were encouraged to enlist upon an undertaking to pay them special rates. I think the men are known as wheelers. At the time the War began, or very soon afterwards, the men of this class were required urgently, and the War Office, in order to get them, gave an undertaking that they should be paid at the rate of 5s. a day. This undertaking lasted a few months, probably four or five months. During that time all the wheelers who entered the Army were entitled to that payment, and entitled to it during the whole period of time they would be in the Army. As soon as enough wheelers had been obtained the War Office made an Order stating that they were withdrawing the extra payment, and that from that moment all men who joined, whether he was a wheeler or not, would only get the ordinary Army pay, of which I make no complaint. When the War Office made the Order saying that these men were not to be paid an extra sum per day, they apparently forgot to let the information about that Order be generally known throughout the country, and for weeks after the Order had been issued and the rate of pay had been changed various' recruiting officers throughout England were engaging men at the rate of 5s. a day, which had been the sum payable to the men before the Order had been withdrawn. I have in my mind a case in regard to which I have had some correspondence with the right hon Gentleman in which a man joined after this Order had been withdrawn. He joined upon the request of the recruiting officials in the West of England near Bristol. He was told by competent persons that he would get this 5s. a day. He made considerable inquiry, and showed much hesitation before joining, and it was only when he was assured that he would get this extra sum that he did join.
I am not going to defend his patriotism in so doing. This is merely a case in which a man thinks a contract was made with him by the War Office, or by the War Office agent, and if that contract was made the contract ought to be honoured. This man, having joined, was paid this amount, showing perfectly plainly that the agents of the War Office who engaged him were under the impression that they were doing right in promising him this sum. As soon as he got into the Army he was told, "This Order which you think exists has not existed for the last two or three months. It is quite wrong for these people to promise you anything of the kind." This man for the first month or so was paid 5s. a day, and was paid that, I presume, with the full knowledge of the hon. Gentleman's (Mr. Forster's) Department, but when the mistake was found out soon afterwards that he had joined after the Order had been suspended he did not get the money. What makes the case a little harder is that a few months later, when they found they could not get enough wheelers, the War Office decided that ail wheelers who joined should be given 6s. a day. This man thought, "If I cannot get 5s. a day from the time I joined, at least from now onwards I am going to get 6s. a day." But he does not get either the 6s. or the 5s., because he joined in the interregnum between the two Orders. Therefore he only gets the ordinary Army pay. That certainly needs explanation to make it satisfactory to a man who thinks he has been done. It seems to me that the man in these circumstances has two claims. First of all, he has the right to say, "I made a bargain with your agent." If the War Office appoints an agent, a recruiting sergeant, who is a fool and does not know what he is doing, and he does what is wrong, I think the War Office ought not to be in a different category from all the rest of us in this world who, if we appoint agents who are fools, have got to bear the consequences. It is not fair that perfectly innocent persons should be dragged into the Army in this way, I will not say by false pretences, because the person who made the pretence believed it to be a true position of affairs, and believed his action to be perfectly right. I do submit that under such circumstances the man ought to be treated as if the War Office had engaged him at the rate of pay which was promised to him. It seems to me rather hard that although a new Order has come into operation this man is not to have henceforth this larger sum which is to the paid to the men of his class who join.
There is another matter which, I think, comes within the purview of the Financial Secretary to the War Office, and that is in regard to the payment of doctors. I am not now talking of the work the doctor does in the hospital or in the field, but in regard to the examination of recruits. I have asked two or three questions lately of both the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Tennant) and the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Forster), and I have had one reply from the Under-Secretary for War and one reply from the Financial Secretary to the War Office. Therefore, I am not quite sure whether both, or which of them, have got the responsibility. As a result of putting these questions I have been inundated with letters from doctors telling me that their cases are even worse than those which I put down upon the Order Paper. This is the position. The War Office issued an Order some months ago—I think about nine or ten months ago—setting out the fees to be paid to doctors for the examination of recruits. In order to make arrangements for the large number of recruits which might have to be examined at one time, the War Office Order, among other things, said that if a doctor was engaged for a whole day, which was to be not less than six hours, he would be paid a fee of £2 for examining recruits during that period. The Order went on to say that if he was engaged this time he would not get the £2 unless he examined at least thirty or forty recruits. Doctors generally understood that to mean that if they worked for six hours, and if they examined between thirty and forty recruits, they would get £2. It is a fact that they are getting that fee, and that is what they are entitled to. But what happened in the great rush in November, December, and January, whilst the Derby scheme was in full operation, was that not thirty or forty recruits, but in many cases hundreds came to be examined on certain days. Those responsible for the examination of these recruits made great efforts to obtain all the doctors they could in the various towns to make the examinations, and they made all sorts of promises, a certain number of which have not been kept. I have called attention to a few of them, and I am glad to say that the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Forster) has been good enough to see that the promises of his agents in that direction have been kept. Many doctors have called my attention to this fact. So that none of these men should be lost to the Army, it was most important that they should be examined at once, and arrangements were made that they should be examined directly they came forward. Therefore, many doctors in a great many towns made arrangements to have staffs of clerks to take measurements, etc., so that there might be great rapidity in the examination of these recruits. I put on the Order Paper for to-day a question showing cases in which doctors worked in the examination of recruits for fourteen or sixteen consecutive hours. That was by no means an exceptional experience during the last two or three weeks of the Derby scheme. They worked for fifteen or sixteen hours consecutively, having their meals in the rooms where they were examining recruits, and though they did this work, examining in some cases over two hundred recruits in a day, yet when they send in their account they are told that this work only counts as one day and that they can only have £2 for it. But you have gone out of your way in your Order to define what a day is—that it is to be six hours and that the number of patients examined should be from thirty to forty. And when doctors at great practical inconvenience, very often having to pay a substitute to do their work, examine from two to three hundred men in sixteen or seventeen hours you treat them as if they had examined only thirty or forty men in six hours. That is not fair.
It is all the more unfair for this reason. Two or three doctors have told me that in several towns some rather cute doctors thought they saw a difficulty in getting paid properly for this work, and they actually declined to examine more than between thirty or forty recruits in a day. Those doctors who make no sacrifice of their convenience for the purpose of examining recruits are going to get an actual pecuniary advantage, though what they did was rather to the injury of the country, by declining to do what they might have done in one day, while the men who sacrificed themselves by examining all these recruits in one day are going to get less money. If a doctor likes to take three days to examine 120 patients he will get £6 for that work, though in many hundreds of towns during the last week or two of the Derby scheme there were doctors who were examining, at least, 200 recruits in a day, and they are to get only £2. I think that the War Office ought to go at least a little way in the direction of meeting these claims. They cannot be pressed legally, but there is very strong moral claim for some consideration being shown to these men who went out of their way to oblige the military authorities at a very critical time. I would ask the Government to consider these two points—the soldier tradesman who has been, as this man writes, inveigled into the Army under what he thinks is a false representation and the doctors who chose to do more than the legal day's work, and ought to get more than the legal day's pay.
I do not intend to follow my hon. Friend who has just spoken in the various matters which he brought to the attention of the House. I would like for a moment to make one reference to a criticism of the hon. Baronet who presided over the Liberal War Committee. My hon. Friend (Mr. Rendall) considers in reference to the demand for an inquiry into the Dardanelles expedition that such an inquiry could not possibly be granted at present. But I would remind him that those of us who have asked for an inquiry have upon our side the authority of the present Prime Minister when a similar inquiry was demanded in regard to the earlier operations in the South African War. At that time the Prime Minister demanded an inquiry upon two grounds, which he put in his own incomparable and convincing way. He said that such an inquiry was of the greatest value for the purpose of preventing similar mistakes in future. The second ground he put was that such an inquiry was only useful while the event was fresh in the minds of the people and when public attention would be drawn to the findings. I think it is well that those who support inquiry should bear that in mind in regard to the earlier operations of this War. I did not rise to deal with that point, but to call attention to the question put to-day to my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions, and to the exceedingly grave statement he made regarding the industrial position on the Clyde. He stated certain facts which had come to the knowledge of his Department. I am authorised to say, on behalf of the Clyde Workers' Committee, against whom certain charges were made, that that committee repudiates entirely the construction which has been placed upon its action by the Ministry of Munitions. But while I make that repudiation, I wish to say that at this time I do not desire to enter into any discussion of what has taken place, as I believe that under present conditions such a discussion would not be beneficial to the public interests.
I wish to support, as strongly as I can, the appeal made by my hon. Friend (Mr. Wing), that soldiers' wives and children should no longer be punished for offences committed by soldiers. Let the men be punished as far as necessary, but I think it would be unworthy of the country and a kind of barbarous punishment that when a man commits some petty offence his wife and children are to be deprived of their separation allowance for so many weeks or so many days, as the case may be. I hope we shall see an end put to that system. I wish to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether it is not possible to reappoint the Committee which sat early in the War with regard to dependants' allowances. There are many matters connected with that subject which are in a very unsatisfactory state, and when we bring them to the attention of the War Office the hon. Gentleman, who treats us with great courtesy and sympathy, always replies that he is tied up by the decision of the Committee which sat on this question early in the War, and that he is unable to go beyond the decision of that Committee. I would, for instance, ask him to give his attention to the question of young men who were apprentices at the beginning of this War, and who were very nearly out of their time. Their mothers were not dependent on them because they were apprentices when they went to the War. Whereas, if they had remained in a civil occupation by now they would have been contributing a very substantial amount to the expenses of the home. And yet we are told that nothing can be allowed in the shape of dependence allowance in such cases because the parents were not actually dependent when the War began. In the same way, where the father was supporting the home and since the War has died, we are told that it cannot be recognised that the mother was dependent upon the son because she was not, as a matter of fact, dependent before the son went to the War. Surely it ought to be recognised, if a father is no longer there to support the home, and if the son is away fighting for the country, that there ought to be some dependent allowance paid to the mother in respect of the son. In similar cases where the mother may have been supporting the home and has become incapable of doing so, some allowance ought to be made. I am not going to enumerate all those hard cases. There are many of them, very hard cases, and I think they can only be met by the reappointment of the Committee in order that those cases may be considered in principle, and then I hope we shall no longer be met by the answer that the War Office is precluded from doing what, I think, is only simple justice in cases such as I have mentioned.
My hon. Friend has referred to the Committee which considered the question of pensions in the early days of the War, and he suggested I should reappoint that Committee That was a Select Committee of this House. It was not appointed by the Financial Secretary to the War Office.
I did not mean that the hon. Gentleman should appoint it by his own irade, but bring about the appointment of it.
No doubt if my hon. Friend approaches the Prime Minister in a proper spirit he will get a very sympathetic reply. He referred to the hard case of the mother and the apprentice who has ceased to be an apprentice since the War began, and commented on the hardship on the mother on account of there being no dependent's allowance payable in respect of her son. I must remind him that that was adopted by the Committee whose recommendations were approved by the House. So far as the War Office is concerned, we cannot go beyond the limits which the House has put upon us. My hon. Friend says it is a very hard case. So it is, and no one admits it more fully than I do, but my hon. Friend will remember that the Govern- ment has appointed another authority to deal with those hard cases, the Statutory Committee of the Royal Patriotic Fund. The Government has placed at their disposal no less than a million pounds sterling. It is for them to deal with those hard cases which lie outside the rules and regulations under which the War Office is bound. My hon. Friend may regret that there should be so much red tape in this matter. I can assure my hon. Friend that unless you have rules and regulations for the administration of pensions and allowances which are clear and definite and cannot be transgressed, you will find the administration of them in an Army of so enormous a size as that which we have to administer, absolutely impossible. Hard cases no doubt there are, and hard cases will inevitably arise in the future. For them there is the Special Committee appointed by Parliament, and it is to that Committee that my hon. Friends must go for consideration and favourable and sympathetic treatment of these cases.
That Committee does not do anything until next July.
I beg the hon. Gentleman's pardon, it is meeting now. My hon. Friend the Member for the Thornbury Division (Mr. Rendall) raised the question of the remuneration of doctors under a War Office Order. He drew a contrast between the treatment of doctors who did a short day's work of some six hours, and contented themselves with examining some forty recruits, with the treatment accorded to other doctors who spared neither themselves nor their private pockets, working sixteen or seventeen hours a day and examining as many as two hundred or three hundred men. My hon. Friend, while admitting that the War Office Order on the question was definite and intelligible, urged me to give sympathetic consideration to the cases of the doctors who have done this amount of hard work. The instructions issued by the War Office with regard to the amount of work which might reasonably be expected from a doctor in return for a payment of a few pounds were really intended as, at any rate, an effort to secure some kind of real medical day. We consulted medical authorities as to the number of men it was thought a doctor might reasonably examine with some searching care in the course of six hours, and the verdict of the medical authorities was that he might be expected properly to examine something like forty men. We did not want doctors to examine these large numbers of men in the time. It became quite apparent in the great rush that medical examination carried on on those lines was necessarily so imperfect as to be worthless. We did not want doctors either to waste their time or to endeavour to pass these enormous numbers of men through a hurried and imperfect examination, because we knew the work would have to be done over again, as has turned out to be the case.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Royal Army Medical doctors who had the superintendence of the examination of these recruits, and who had to select the civilian doctors who made the examination, actually came to civilian doctors all over the country and said "Please do arrange to spend the whole day and if necessary the whole night for this last day or two. It is essential that we should have your services during the whole time. If we cannot get them we shall lose the recruits." It was done not by the civilian doctors, but by your own doctors.
In the last days of the Derby rush there was no question of examining the recruits. A man was registered, and, being registered, the order for the medical examination was delayed.
They were often examined before they attested.
My hon. Friend referred to the case of a wheeler who was told that he would get 5s. a day if he enlisted, and subsequently discovered that he was not entitled to it. My hon. Friend said, "Surely in a case where there is a con tract between the War Office through their recruiting officer and the men they recruit that contract ought to be carried out." I agree that it ought, and where it is really established that a man has been enlisted under a definite promise of a rate of pay in excess of that in force at the moment we pay. As far as I remember, I do not think that my inquiries in the particular case referred to are yet complete; I believe there is a difference of evidence. The man says that he was promised a special rate, and the recruiting officer says that he was not. There is another element to which my hon. Friend has alluded which complicates the question, and rather appears to tell against the War Office, and that is that the man is actually paid the higher rate for the first few weeks of service. My inquiries into that matter are not yet complete, and if my hon. Friend will allow me, I should prefer to leave the case there, with the general assurance— and I think I have given evidence of it— that where it is established that the man was definitely given a promise, that that promise shall be kept. Two hon. Friends raised the question of the reduced separation allowance to the families of those soldiers who go to prison. I have before explained the position. I really do not think the War Office can be expected to do more than they do now. What happens when the soldier goes to prison is that his pay stops, and there is nothing from which his allotment can be paid to his wife. The Government contribution is continued while the man is in prison, so that the family loses the allotment— generally 3s. 6d. per week—which is drawn from the man's pay. I do not think that the House can fairly ask that the War Office should take from War Office funds the extra payment which would have to be made on account of the man's pay being stopped. If the House thinks that the country ought to come to the support of the family while the man is in prison, well, that again is, I think, a case for a Statutory Committee. In my view we should not be justified in throwing the added cost upon Army funds. My hon. Friend the Member for Derby raised various interesting questions relating to the position of married men, and so forth. I do not think I need say more than that I understand my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board is going to make a statement upon that question to-morrow, and I think that we might await that statement. I have, I think, now dealt with most of the points which have been raised, and I hope we may now be allowed to get the Third Reading of the Bill.
Question, "That the Bill be now read the third time," put, and agreed to.
Bill read the third time, and passed,
Army (Annual) Bill
Order for Second Reading, read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
This is a very important Bill. Upon this occasion it becomes of more than ordinary importance, because we have a greater number and a greater proportion than ever before of our fellow-countrymen in the Army. Most of the provisions of this Bill are more or less formal, or of such an unimportant nature that they may be almost disregarded. But it has always been recognised that this Bill, when it comes on, allows an opportunity for introducing Amendments of various kinds. I am in a position to state, on behalf of myself and other hon. Members, that we intend to put down a number of Amendments which will raise the various points. I would just like to inform the right hon. Gentleman that I and my friends have drafted Amendments, which he will see upon the Paper tomorrow morning, dealing with these points, amongst others the ill-treatment of horses in the Army.
Is that alleged?
Wait and see. Of course, we do not profess that we are going to allege certain acts. We are only going in this Bill to make provisions in case such acts occur.
I understand it is a provision against the possible ill-treatment of horses. You might have provisions of many kinds against possibilities that do not occur.
I hope a great many of these offences which are in the Army Act have not occurred even in this War. The Army Act, I think, has nearly two hundred Clauses, and I devoutly hope that all the offences in it have not been realised. Another point we intend to raise is the sentences by court-martial. There are various points in connection with that matter which have been raised by questions in the House. Then there is the liability of soldiers to maintain their wives and children and other dependants. This is a matter on which I have put down Amendments in former years, and some of them have been accepted subsequently; and I have got one or two small Amendments in this line. Then there are various Amendments connected with serious offences punishable with death. Some of those offences, such as desertion, or offences against the Military Service Act, have been recently the subject of inquiry and debate in this House. We introduce an Amendment dealing with that subject. Then there are other offences against discipline, such as offences against officers and offences under the general heading of desertion. Another Amendment which will be put in will deal with the interval which should be allowed between a sentence of a court-martial and carrying out the sentence. Then, last of all, I would like especially to call the attention of my right hon. Friend to the Amendment which will be put on the Paper in connection with the subject of venereal diseases. We have just had a very important Royal Commission upon this subject, and on page 63 of the Report there is a very important recommendation—No. 22—as to how this question ought to be treated in the case of men suffering in the Army. I believe we ought to deal with this subject at the present time. It is, of course, quite notorious that, after a great war, there is always an alarming spread of venereal disease, and we propose to put down an Amendment which will practically impose it as a duty upon the Army authorities not to discharge a man who is suffering from a disease of this character in its contagious or infectious state. That is practically the recommendation of the Royal Commission, and I hope by putting down an Amendment in that sense we shall at any rate bring the extremely important question before the attention of the War Office. I should like to apologise for the great length which the Amendments will run to upon the Order paper. My right hon. Friend will recognise that the subjects we intend to bring forward are very important, and that we shall treat them in a serious way with the greatest possible abbreviation.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for tomorrow (Wednesday).
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Consolidation Bills
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Lords Message [22nd March] communicating the following Resolution, namely, that it is desirable that all Consolidation Bills in the present Session be referred to a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament, be now considered."—[ Mr. Gulland. ]
I should like to ask what Bills it is proposed during the present Session to have consolidated, and whether the Larceny Bill, which I believe has been introduced in another place, which was printed at very considerable cost, is a very long Bill, and of which Bill no fewer than 1,500 copies were printed, being a very considerable waste of paper at a time when we wanted economy in paper. I want to know when the Larceny Bill will be introduced, whether it is the Bill as introduced last Session, and if any other Bill is to be taken up, what that Bill will be.
It is proposed to bring the Larceny Bill before the Committee this year.
Question put, and agreed to.
Lords Message considered accordingly.
Resolved, "That this House doth concur with the Lords in the said Resolution."
Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.—[ Mr. Gulland. ]
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 21st February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Twelve minutes before Eleven o'clock.