House of Commons
Wednesday, March 29, 1916
Private Business
Cardiff Railway Bill,
As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
North British Railway Bill (Substituted Bill) (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.
Electric Lighting Provisional Order Bill,
"To confirm a Provisional Order made by the Board of Trade under the Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 to 1909, relating to Church Stretton," presented by Mr. PRETYMAN; read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 14.]
Saint John's Church, Kingston-upon-Hull, Bill.
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Private Bills (Group A).
Sir WILLIAM HOWELL DAVIES reported from the Committee on Group A of Private Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, the Committee had adjourned till Tuesday next, at half-past Eleven of the clock.
Report to lie upon the Table.
War Organisation in the Distributing Trades in Scotland
Copy presented of Second Report of the Government Committee appointed by the Secretary for Scotland on War Organisation in the Distributing Trades in Scotland [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Shops Act, 1912
Copy presented of Order made by the Council of the undermentioned local authority, and confirmed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department:—
Borough of Eccles
[by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
ALIEN ENEMIES ON THE SS. "GOLCONDA" (MISCELLANEOUS No. 8, 1916)
Copy presented of Further Correspondence with the United States Ambassador respecting the safety of Alien Enemies repatriated from India on the ss. "Golconda" [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Army (Territorial Force)
Copies presented of Schemes made by the Army Council for the establishment and constitution of Associations for the county of Bedford and the county of Salop [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Diseases of Animals Acts
Copy presented of Order 9,720, dated 20th March, 1916, defining a Foreign Animals Quarantine Station at No. 2 Basin, Chatham Dockyard, for the purposes of the Foreign Animals (Quarantine) Order of 1896 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Supreme Court (Prize, Etc., Deposit Account, 1914–15)
Copy ordered "Of Account of the Receipts and Payments of the Assistant Paymaster-General for Supreme Court business on behalf of the Admiralty Division in Prize, for the period ended the 31st day of March, 1915; together with Copy of the Correspondence with the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon."—[ Mr. Montagu. ]
Oral Answers to Questions
War
Venereal Diseases
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention has been drawn to the recommendation in the Report of the Royal Commission on Venereal Diseases that a man in the Navy should not be discharged if suffering from any such disease; whether any legislation is required in order to enable effect to be given to that recommendation; and, if so, whether he is prepared to introduce such legislation?
I think my hon. Friend will see that the question raised in the recommendation to which he refers is one which will call for careful consideration. He is, of course, aware that the Report was signed so recently as 11th February, 1916, and was publicly circulated in the early days of the present month.
May we be sure that it is to receive careful attention at once, and not put off further?
The matter will be considered, but I can give no undertaking as to it.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention has been drawn to the recommendation in the Report of the Royal Commission on Venereal Diseases that men joining the Navy should be warned at the earliest possible moment of the grave dangers which venereal diseases involve, and that the warning should be formally repeated at intervals of not less than a year; whether the existing Regulations provide for such warnings; and, if not, whether he will cause the Regulations to be amended so as to secure that the recommendation of the Commissioners be carried into effect?
The answer to the earlier parts of the question being in the affirmative, the last part of the question does not, therefore, arise.
asked the President of the Local Government Board (1) whether it is the intention of the Board to use their power under the Public Health Acts to supply drugs used in connection with venereal diseases free to medical practitioners, as recommended in the Report of the Royal Commission on Venereal Diseases; and (2) whether legislation is required to enable the Board to secure accurate statistical information as regards the prevalence of disease among persons receiving institutional treatment, as recommended in the Report of the Royal Commission on Venereal Diseases; and, if so, whether it is his intention to introduce such legislation?
I cannot say more at the present time than that the Report of the Royal Commission as a whole is under the consideration of the Departments concerned.
Has the right hon. Gentleman considered whether a Clause might not be added to the Local Government (Emergency Provisions) Bill which would bring the recommendations within the purview of the Bill?
My hon. Friend will consider that.
Valparaiso (Shipment of Chilian Beans)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his or any other Government Department authorised the agents of the British Government at Valparaiso to ship a quantity of Chilian beans at the port of Talcahuano or other West Coast port and deliver same at Buenos Ayres by a steamer requisitioned by the Admiralty to carry nitrates to this country; whether his or any other Government Department authorised the consignment of these beans at Buenos Ayres to the firm of Brauss, Mahn, and Company; and whether he is aware that Brauss, Mahn, and Company are the Imperial German commercial agents at Buenos Ayres?
To secure the full use of the cargo capacity of a steamer carrying nitrate to this country, which had in any case to go round Cape Horn, she was ordered to Buenos Ayres to load hay. The space left for carrying hay was, between the nitrate loading port and Buenos Ayres, filled with beans consigned to Buenos Ayres, thus ensuring that no part of the ship was wasted on the trip. The Government agents, without the knowledge of the Admiralty, consigned these beans to the firm mentioned by the hon. Member, under the impression at the time that this was a Belgian firm with a head office at Antwerp, and unexceptionable from the point of view of trading with the enemy. The Government agents have since severed all connection with this firm.
( indistinctly heard ): Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it goes round the Horn; in the second place, ought he not to have known that this firm for many months was the German Imperial commercial agent; and is he aware that I had brought this to the notice of the Government Department?
As to going round the Horn, that is a detail as far as the substance of this question is concerned. I will accept my hon. Friend's correction. As regards the second part, the action was not taken by the Admiralty, but the Government Agents. We did not appoint them. But, as I have said, they have since severed all connection with the firm.
Air Services
Pilots
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can inform the House of the circumstances connected with an application from the War Office for the services of Royal Naval Air Service pilots for Royal Flying Corps machines; and can he state the objections put forward by Royal Naval Air Service pilots against volunteering for the work?
My right hon. Friend has no statement to make.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Mr. Duncan, a pupil at a civilian flying school who has already spent £160 in qualifying for his pilot's certificate, has been called up under the Military Service Act, 1916, in spite of assurances that he would be given sufficient time to obtain his certificate; is he aware that this is not an isolated case; and will he make a public statement reassuring all those men who are qualifying at their own expense for this branch of the combatant services that the labour and money expended and the risks they are taking will not be lost to the country?
The War Office have no information in regard to this case, but inquiry shall be made. It seems clear that Mr. Duncan had not attested and, therefore, came under the Military Service Act and, as he was neither exempted nor excepted, the authorities were bound to send him a notice calling him up. As the hon. Member states that this is not an isolated case, I will ask him of his abundance to give particulars of any other cases and to state in each case whether the pupil was attested and, if so, whether he had begun qualifying for his certificate before or after his group was called up.
Would the right hon. Gentleman mind telling me whether it is the intention to call up men who are almost qualified as pilots and send them into the trenches, when pilots are scarce, as was suggested in the House yesterday?
No, Sir, there is no such suggestion. The question the hon. Gentleman asked was whether the man was attested or not.
Anti-Aircraft Service (Motor Cars)
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty how many motor cars are at the disposal of the Anti-Aircraft Service at the present time, and if the same are being put to the best possible use?
If my hon. Friend means passenger cars, the answer is five. We have also a larger number of motor vehicles performing service work. All are being put to the best possible use.
Joint War Air Committee
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that friction has already arisen between the naval and military members of the Joint War Air Committee; and, if so, whether he will do his best to ensure that this friction does not prevent a full and frank disclosure of the position of each service?
I am informed that no conditions have arisen which will prevent a full and frank disclosure of the position of each service.
Would the right hon. Gentleman answer my question whether any friction has arisen?
I understand no conditions involving friction which would "prevent a full and frank disclosure" have arisen.
Royal Dockyard (Gibraltar)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that the granting of 1d. a day to labourers and 2d. a day to mechanics employed at His Majesty's dockyard, Gibraltar, by way of bonus, is insufficient to meet the increased cost of food; that the cost of living has gone up from 40 per cent. to 60 per cent.; that rents are being increased and new tenants cannot obtain a room for less than 5s. a week, unless in undesirable and insanitary quarters; that, but for the overtime worked, the wages paid, 14s. a week, would not have met the cost of subsistence; and whether he can say, now that overtime is being greatly reduced, if he will consider the possibility of raising the rates of pay of labourers, skilled labourers, and mechanics?
The question refers solely to men locally entered at Gibraltar. Men sent out from England from the home yards receive the home-yard rate, plus the home-yard war bonus, plus a foreign service allowance. As regards the payments to local entrants we are considering their remuneration, and a decision will shortly be taken, as to which I can give no undertaking.
Steamships Requisitioned
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether Messrs. Mathwin, Admiralty coal agents at Cardiff, have been invested by the Director of Transports with autocratic powers to requisition steamers on his behalf; whether this firm requisitioned the steamer "Hesione" on 31st May, 1915, to act as a collier by notice served on the owners in Liverpool, although she was a refrigerated steamer carrying 1,500 tons weight of meat and was already under requisition to the Board of Trade by Order in Council; and whether this Mathwin requisition was withdrawn by notice to the owners in Liverpool on 5th June, and only after letters had been written by the hon. Member for the West Toxteth Division of Liverpool to Messrs. Mathwin and the Director of Transports protesting against this requisition, which, if it had been carried out, would have resulted in an improper and wasteful use of a vessel engaged in carrying meat from the Argentine to this country?
My hon. Friend was informed on the 8th June, 1915, by the President of the Board of Trade that the requisitioning of the vessel referred to was due to an oversight and was cancelled as soon as this was discovered—namely, on the second day after the requisition was forwarded to the owners.
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty (1) whether he can state if any, and, if so, how many, cargoes of Australian wheat carried in steamers requisitioned by the Admiralty have been, and have yet to be, delivered in Italian ports; and (2) whether he can now state definitely which Government Department is responsible for the sale and delivery of cargoes of Australian wheat carried in requisitioned steamers and delivered in Spanish ports; and how many steamers requisitioned by the Transport Department of the Admiralty have delivered and have yet to deliver such cargoes in Spanish ports?
The Australian Commonwealth is responsible for the sale and delivery of wheat to Spanish and Italian ports in requisitioned steamers. These steamers were not requisitioned by the Transport Department of the Admiralty, but by the Commonwealth Government. I should explain to my hon. Friend that they are not the steamers which were released by the Transport Department at the instance of the Colonial Office and formed the subject of his question of 22nd March. The number of the steamers requisitioned by the Commonwealth Government which have so far delivered such cargoes are—to Spanish ports four, to Italian ports five.
Are we to understand that no steamers requisitioned by the Admiralty have delivered this wheat for the Australian Government to Spain and Italy?
That is my impression, but I will look into the matter.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say why wheat was sent to Spain that was badly wanted here?
That is not a question which should be addressed to me. The Australian Commonwealth Government was responsible for the sale and delivery of wheat at Italian and Spanish ports.
Royal Fleet Reserve
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty if men of the Royal Fleet Reserve and ex-Royal Fleet Reserve and men of the mercantile marine employed on armed cruisers (auxiliary), patrol yacht, etc., are entitled to a monthly bonus and of what amount; and if he can say if these men are paid this bonus monthly or is the amount payable at the end of the War or of a man's service?
Men of the Royal Fleet Reserve and pensioners, who are employed in armed auxiliary vessels, are paid their ordinary naval rates of pay and allowances. A bonus is not payable in addition. Men of the mercantile marine who are employed in similar circumstances are allowed a bonus of 15 per cent.—in some cases £1 a month—on their civilian rates of wages. This bonus is paid concurrently with wages.
Armed Merchant Vessels
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty if he is now in a position to give the House the date and text of the Instruction issued by the Admiralty to merchant shippers with reference to arming and their use of arms?
If the hon. Gentleman refers to shipowners, the current Instructions with reference to defensively armed merchant vessels were issued by the Admiralty on 20th October, 1915, and they have recently been made public through the Press on 3rd March.
Loss of Ss. "Lusitania."
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the two wireless messages sent to and acknowledged by the acting captain of the "Lusitania" on its last voyage related to any person or thing on board that vessel; and whether the instructions conveyed were acted upon?
I have nothing to add to the reply, referring to the Wreck Commissioner's Findings, which I gave the hon. Member yesterday in answer to a similar question.
Does the right hon. Gentleman refuse to answer the question on the Paper?
I have referred the hon. Gentleman to Command Paper 8,022, 1915.
Interned German Ships
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the German interned steamers lying in Italian ports are now being used by the Italian Government; and whether the terms as to payment for the use of these vessels are the same as those offered by the Portuguese Government to Germany for the use of similar vessels in Portuguese ports before Germany declared war on Portugal?
As regards the first part of the question I must refer the hon. Member to the reply returned to the hon. Member for the Mansfield Division of Notts on the 29th ultimo. With regard to the second part, no precise scale of payment for the use of requisitioned ships was laid down by either Government.
Are we to understand that the scale of payment was offered by either Government?
I think it was so, but I should like notice of the question.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can now state the number and tonnage of German ships now requisitioned by Italy and Portugal, respectively?
All German vessels sheltering in Portuguese ports have been requisitioned, and the same applies to those in Italian ports, with the exception of three, which for various reasons are unusable. If the hon. Member requires further statistics regarding the vessels I must ask him to address himself to the First Lord of the Admiralty.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can state the number of German vessels interned or sheltering in Argentine, Uruguayan, and Brazilian ports, respectively, giving their names and gross registered tonnage?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. The respective totals are:
Army Clothing
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether any contracts for Army clothing have been placed in Scotland since November last; is he aware that any fresh orders placed there by his Department are going into the hands of the six to twelve largest manufacturers, who in some instances are extending their factories, while some of the smaller factories, that put machinery in in order to cope with the emergency demand of his Department at the beginning of the War, are now practically idle, with the workers in severe straits; and can he do anything to alleviate this?
There are seventy-three Scottish firms included in the War Office list of contractors for the supply of various articles of Army clothing, and since November last, inclusive, orders have been placed with thirty-seven of these firms. The contracts were allocated in open competition, with due regard to the manufacturing capacity of the various firms and to the manner in which previous work had been executed. Endeavours have been made to spread work as widely as possible, but the need for employment in the clothing trade and the number of firms capable of undertaking Government contracts exceed the present requirements of the Department.
Naval and Military Services (Pensions and Grants)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether it is the rule of his Department that separation allowance to the wife of a soldier is not granted where at the time of enlistment she had a business of her own from which an income was derived, and that no separation allowance is paid during the whole currency of the War in the case where the wife's business has been ruined by the exigencies of the War?
The answer is in the negative.
Military Service
Men Medically Rejected
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will have inquiries made into the case of Harold Hargreaves, lately of Burnley, and afterwards residing at 20, St. James's Street, Southport, who offered himself for enlistment at Blackburn on 26th October last and was then rejected as medically unfit, but has since been compelled to join the Army under the Military Service Act, 1916, and, in particular, if he will ascertain whether this man, on receiving a yellow notice requiring him to join for service with the Colours, called at the recruiting office at Southport on Friday, 3rd March, and produced the certificate of rejection which had been given him at Blackburn, and was then informed that this could not be accepted because it was signed only by a non-commissioned officer; that on Monday, 6th March, he travelled to Blackburn and called at the recruiting office to ask that the certificate should be corrected, but was informed that this could not be done, as the doctor who had rejected him had resigned his post; that at 10.45 on Thursday, 9th March, the police called at the shop where he works and told him that unless he reported himself for military service by 11.30 he would be arrested as a deserter; and that he then went and was passed for immediate service, although, in fact, suffering from rheumatic affection of the heart; and whether the War Office propose to take any steps in the matter?
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the case of the late Private Laban Crane, 3/9th Manchester Regiment, who was sent to Colford on 3rd February in indifferent health and was reported sick six days later; that he was placed on sick parade at 7 a.m. on the following morning, the doctor ordering pills and duty; that on the evening of the same day he was again reported sick and was again on sick parade next morning, being given more pills and being inoculated at eleven in the morning, and that later in the day, though scarcely able to walk, he was obliged to remove from one hut to another and to carry his kit; that on the following day, being Saturday, 12th March, he had again to sick parade at 7 a.m., though practically on the point of collapsing, the doctor ordering more pills; that during the week end he was dependent for food and attention upon the kindness of a few of his comrades, apart from the visit of a Royal Army Medical Corps sergeant on Monday afternoon, who gave him two more pills; that though he was again reported sick on the Monday there was no visit by the doctor; that he was allowed to remain in this condition until Wednesday, when he was asked to walk to hospital, though by this time he could not stand; that within an hour of his being taken to hospital by ambulance oxygen was administered and, despite all possible skill and attention, the man died three days later; and whether thorough investigation will be made and, if necessary, suitable action taken in respect of the doctor in question?
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the case of A. Avery, who attested on 11th January at 5, Boylie Street, Stourbridge, and was rejected for heart trouble, receiving a form to that effect; whether he is aware that this man applied on the 6th February to the recruiting office at Stourbridge for an armlet, and that his rejection paper on this occasion was taken from him by the officer in charge, who said the paper was no good; whether this man has now received a notice calling him to the Colours; and whether he will cause inquiry to be made into all the circumstances?
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War by what authority recruiting officers in the Hamilton district of Lanarkshire have driven a number of unnaturalised Lithuanians and Russians and other foreigners into the Army under the Military Service Act, in spite of the protests of the men; and will he give instructions at once that these men are discharged, and also take proper measures against the recruiting officers for their conduct?
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Richard Ivor Parry, of Disgwylfa, Trevor, in the county of Carnarvon, who has been unable to work for the last thirteen months, suffering from heart disease, has, notwithstanding his medical attendance certificate to that effect, been passed by the military authorities at Wrexham for general service; whether Parry has been called up for service on 7th April; and whether, in view of the medical evidence as to the man's condition and the danger to his health, he will cause an immediate inquiry to be made into the case?
Inquiry will be necessary before these questions can be answered, and it is being made.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I gave notice ten days ago, and that he told me that an answer would be ready?
I will communicate with my hon. Friend when I have the information.
War Office Officials (Exemption)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War (1) whether any and, if so, how many clerks or officials, now employed in the War Office, have obtained exemption from military service as conscientious objectors, other than the clerk who has been exempted on the ground that he belonged to the Fellowship of Reconciliation; and (2) in which Department of the War Office the clerk was at the time when he obtained exemption from military service as belonging to the Fellowship of Reconciliation; how long has he been at the War Office; and what is his present salary?
I have no evidence that the cause of exemption in the case of the clerk referred to was that he is a member of the Fellowship of Reconciliation. I hardly think that it is necessary or relevant that the particulars asked for in the question should be given. I am not aware that any other clerks or officers now employed in the War Office have obtained exemption from military service as conscientious objectors.
Did not the right hon. Gentleman say, in answer to my question in the House a week ago, that the clerk referred to belonged to the Fellowship of Reconciliation?
I do not exactly remember the terms of the hon. Gentleman's previous question which he has referred to. What I said was, if I remember aright, that the man went before the tribunal and was exempted as a conscientious objector. Of course, it is very difficult to remember all the answers I give. I am sure the man was exempted from military service on the ground of conscientious objection and not on the ground that he was a member of this particular body.
Is the Fellowship of Reconciliation on the War Office list of recognised religions?
I am sorry to say the War Office is not a body that holds a list of recognised religions.
Local Government Board (Instructions)
asked whether the instructions isued by the President of the Local Government Board to the military tribunals are issued only to the military, tribunals in England and Wales; and, if so, whether any similar instructions have been issued by the Secretary for Scotland to tribunals in Scotland?
The answer to both parts of the question is in the affirmative.
Business (Equality of Treatment)
asked the President of the Local Government Board if any steps are to be taken to equalise the treatment of the owners of small and large businesses under the Derby scheme; and whether his attention has been called to the fact that the attested man who works his small shop or business single-handed will have to close his shop and serve, whilst the big man is exempted as being necessary for the working of his business?
It is not possible to lay down general rules in these matters. Each case has to be considered on its merits.
Local Tribunals
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that the tribunal in Dumbarton consists of a glue merchant, a builder, a factor, and two lawyers; whether he will explain how such a tribunal carries out his recommendation in regard to adequate Labour representation; and what steps he proposes to take in the matter?
The answer to the first portion of the question is in the affirmative. I do not consider that the present constitution of this tribunal does carry out the recommendation in regard to adequate representation of Labour, and I am in communication with the town council on the subject.
asked whether any labour representatives have been appointed on the tribunal for the Metropolitan borough of Stoke Newington; and, if so, how many have been appointed and to what labour organisation, if any, do they belong?
According to the return furnished to my right hon. Friend this local tribunal contains one Labour representative, who is stated to be an "ex-railway signalman." It is not stated in the return whether he belongs to any labour organisation, but I understand that he is a member of a trade union.
Mesopotamia Campaign
Medical Service
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether steps will forthwith be taken to secure for the forces on the Rivers Tigris, Euphrates, and Karun, in addition to medical and surgical requirements for the case of wounds, such drugs and appliances as have been proved useful in cases of plague, cholera, malarial fever, sunstroke, guinea worm, and other diseases likely to occur in the approaching very hot weather in the deserts of Mesopotamia?
I can assure my hon. Friend that all the resources at the disposal of the War Office, whether in personnel or in stores, have been offered to the Commander-in-Chief in India.
Operations on Tigris and Euphrates
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War when the Papers relating to operations on the Rivers Tigris and Euphrates are likely to be published?
Dispatches regarding operations in the Persian Gulf and in Mesopotamia have already been published in Command Paper No. 8074. It is hoped to publish shortly a further dispatch from Sir John Nixon. This will cover events up to the end of September.
Will those dispatches be published in the "London Gazette"?
I should like notice of that question.
Questions
Inoculation (Conditions of Leave)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he will issue instructions that recruits who object to anti-typhoid inoculation are to be allowed leave in the ordinary way, providing they produce evidence from the medical officer of health for the district they intend to visit stating that the neighbourhood is free from typhoid fever?
The ncessity of preventing the introduction of enteric fever into military camps is paramount, and this necessitates that leave shall be granted sparingly to men who object to inoculation. I do not think that the suggestion made in the latter part of the question provides sufficient safeguard that uninoculated men on leave will not bring back infection.
Army Motor Purchases
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will say what commission, if any, is paid to Messrs. Keele, Limited, 72, New Bond Street, on motor goods supplied to his Department by the Sunbeam Motor Company, Limited?
No commission is, or has ever been, paid by the War Department to the firm in question.
Are they not receiving £1,000 per week from the Sunbeam Company?
Not that I know of.
War Office Advertisements
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether Messrs. R. F. White and Sons, of 33, Fleet Street, are still the agents of the War Office for advertisements given out to provincial papers; and, if so, what sums of money were paid to this firm last year?
Yes, Sir. The amounts paid could not be ascertained without lengthy inquiry into the various commands where the expenditure is authorised and the details of the accounts are kept.
Is it not possible to take out the amount from the ledger of money paid to this firm for advertising?
My hon. Friend will realise that all these accounts are kept in various commands; and owing to the form in which Army accounts are kept, it is not so easy to get out the details of the amounts as he would suppose. The accounts are laid down in the form prescribed by Parliament for keeping the Army accounts, and vouchers are, of course, obtained, and every penny can be accounted for if my hon. Friend thinks the value of the investigation will be commensurate with the labour employed.
What percentage do they get on the amount given out?
I will find out.
Are they not getting precisely the same commission as they did for forty or fifty years before?
Is not the work ten times as large?
I can find out.
British Prisoners in Germany
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he has any information that parcels to British prisoners in Germany which contain butter are opened and the butter confiscated by the German authorities?
I have no information to that effect.
Munitions
Manufacture in Ireland
asked the Minister of Munitions (1) the number of men and women, respectively, actually employed in making munitions of war in Ireland and being paid wages in the munitions area, south of a line from Ballyshannon to Dundalk, since the establishment of a branch of the Munitions Ministry in Ireland; what is the number of these men and women, respectively, employed at the works of Messrs. Kynochs as additional hands since the War; and what is the total employed in Ireland; and (2) what amount of labour has been brought from Ireland for employment on the manufacture of munitions of war and kindred work in Great Britain?
Since the establishment of the branch of the Munitions Ministry in Ireland in August, 1915, approximately 2,900 men and 730 women have been engaged and are being paid wages on the manufacture of munitions in Ireland, south of a line from Ballyshannon to Dundalk. It is not considered desirable to give the number engaged by particular firms. It is not possible to state without exhaustive inquiry what is the total number of persons employed in Ireland on munitions work, but the number entering such employment in Ireland since August, 1915, is 9,316 men and 1,074 women. It is not possible to state what amount of labour of all kinds is available for employment in Ireland on munitions of war, but I may say that the numbers on the Labour Exchange registers in Ireland available and willing to undertake munitions work are as follows: 508 skilled mechanics; 802 unskilled men; and 1,225 women.
Has the question been studied of extending munition works to provincial parts of Ireland?
Yes, the whole question about Ireland has been carefully studied.
Employment of Soldiers
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he will consider the possibility of making arrangements whereby skilled workmen who are released from military service in order to return to their usual occupation, instead of, as is now frequently the case, being sent to factories where they were not previously employed, when they are required by these works where they were employed before joining the Army, may go back to those works, thus avoiding in many cases the necessity of paying sustenance money?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given on the 21st October last to the hon. Member for the Bridgeton Division of Glasgow, of which I am sending him a copy.
Controlled Establishments
asked the Minister of Munitions if he will have a return made of the number of single men and the number of married men of military age who are employed in ordnance factories and controlled works?
In view of the large amount of work which the making of this return would cause to the staff of the Controlled Establishments and of the Department, my right hon. Friend does not feel prepared to ask for it. As has already been announced, the Ministry of Munitions are making systematic investigations with a view to discovering those men of military age who are employed on work which could be done by women.
In making those inquiries, if he gets the information can he not give the return?
It is quite a different thing. We send officers down to the factories in connection with dilution of labour. The question on the Paper is for a return for controlled establishments. There are thousands of them, and there would have to be reference to all the employés.
Employment of Belgian Soldiers
asked the Minister of Munitions whether his attention has been called to the numbers of Belgian soldiers, many quite unskilled, who are being withdrawn from the Belgian Army to make munitions in this country, whereas English workmen are being recruited for the Army; whether special terms and conditions are being arranged for these soldiers; and, if so, will he say what is the reason for such action?
It is not a fact that unskilled soldiers are being withdrawn from the Belgian Army to make munitions in this country. Owing to the shortage of labour in this country the Belgian Government offered to supply sufficient Belgian labour to equip one entire munition factory. This labour is being chiefly recruited from wounded Belgian soldiers who have received their discharge from the Army as unfit for military service, but who can be employed on munitions work, for which they are being specially trained. I understand that the Belgian military authorities are taking steps similar to those which have been already taken by the British War Office, whereby a certain number of highly skilled men are being withdrawn from the Colours, and some of these will be employed at the munitions factory in question. The rates paid to all Belgian workmen employed at the factory will be the rates current in the district for the work in question. Owing to lack of accommodation in the district, temporary housing accommodation is being provided, in which all Belgian workers will be housed together under suitable supervision.
Are the men over military age, or is it a fact that a great number of them are under military age? Will my hon. Friend make inquiry as to whether in some of the controlled firms there are at present a number of Belgians of military age?
My answer covers that point.
London County Hall
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he can state for what period he has stopped building work on the new County Hall; is he aware that a good deal of the work in hand is stone-masons' and joiners' work; can he see his way to allow the men on this class of work to continue; and, if so, will he state the number of workmen it would allow to remain at work on the building?
It is not possible to make any statement at present as to the length of time for which work on the London County Hall will be stopped. The subject dealt with in the remainder of the question is now under consideration.
Women Workers (Messrs. Vickers, Limited)
asked whether Messrs. Vickers are about to employ women on twelve-hour shifts instead of on eight-hour shifts as hitherto; whether such a change would be directly contrary to the recommendations of the Health of Munitions Workers' Committee; and whether this is a controlled establishment?
Messrs. Vickers, Limited, have hitherto, at their works at Erith, employed women on a three-shift system for seven days a week. The Report of the Health of Munitions Workers' Committee was in favour of a three-shift system for women, and the Ministry of Munitions adopt their views in normal cases. These particular works present certain exceptional features, and after a report by the Home Office inspector and full consideration of the matter, the Ministry agreed to recommend to the Home Office that permission be granted to the firm to establish a two-shift system under which the work of women would be practically limited to six days a week. This permission has, I understand, been granted, and the new system was introduced at the beginning of this week. Under the three-shift system the actual hours of work are 52½ a week (including Sunday work) for two weeks, and 48 for the third. Under the two-shift system they will be 58 on day-shift or 60 hours on night-shift, with a full rest at the week-end. These figures are within the limits recommended by the Health of Munitions Workers' Committee. The permission given to the firm is provisional only, and the experiment will be most carefully watched in regards to its effect alike on the workers and upon the output.
Will the hon. Gentleman give us the reasons for this change? Is the result likely to be a decrease in the total output of munitions during the twenty-four hours and an increase in the breakdown of the health of the workers?
If that appeared to follow we would stop it at once.
Has not arbitration been asked for on this question by the organisation responsible? And is it not the case that the firm have refused to postpone making the change pending the result of that arbitration?
I was not aware of that. I will inquire.
What are the reasons for the change?
There are complicated reasons; I would rather not go into them.
Is it correct that the Committee have reported against the change?
No. It is quite within the bounds of the Committee's report.
Munition Workers (Recruitment in Ireland)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Labour Exchanges in Ireland are recruiting men and women for munitions work in Great Britain, including the construction of the large explosives factory in the North, and whether numbers of these are being sent from Ireland to Great Britain every night; and can he say what amount of labour, male and female, has been so recruited by the Labour Exchanges?
Vacancies for situations for munitions work which cannot be filled locally are circulated through the Labour Exchanges in Ireland, as in other parts of the United Kingdom, and if applicants are obtained to fill the vacancies arrangements for their transference to the job are made similar to those made in Great Britain. The number of cases of men sent from Ireland to Great Britain through the medium of the Labour Exchanges for the manufacture of munitions or for the erection of buildings in connection therewith up to 11th March, 1916, was 18,840. These figures do not necessarily relate to different individuals in every case, as the same individual may have been sent on more than one occasion. Corresponding figures for women are not available at the moment, but they do not amount to any considerable number.
The following question stood in the name of Mr. BOLAND: 55.—To ask the Minister of Munitions whether the branch of the Munitions Ministry in Ireland have ascertained the amount of labour, male and female, in Ireland, skilled and unskilled, available for employment on munitions of war; and what that amount is?
I think this question ought to be put to the Board of Trade.
I think both questions have been answered by the Ministry of Munitions and the Board of Trade.
Questions
Rubber Tyres (Importation)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, having regard to the quantity of motor-car tyres and motor-cycle tyres imported from America and which are not included in the list of recent prohibited importations, he will state if it is his intention to continue to allow rubber tyres to be imported?
A prohibition of the importation of tyres for motors and motor cycles is not at present in contemplation, but I can, of course, give no undertaking as to the future.
Trading With the Enemy Act (Stuttgart Firm)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the German firm of W. Wolf and Son, of Stuttgart, who operate in cotton and cotton waste, have a branch house in Manchester which is managed by a person of German birth; if he has appointed a supervisor of this German concern; and if he will see that the question of winding up the business is considered by the Advisory Committee under the Trading With the Enemy Act?
Yes, Sir. In September last the Board of Trade appointed a supervisor of the business in this country of the firm in question, and a winding-up order under the Trading With the Enemy Amendment Act of this year was made on the 20th instant, notice thereof being gazetted on the following day.
Price of Coal (Limitation) Act
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has any information that the Price of Coal (Limitation) Act is in many cases not being carried out; will he introduce an amending Bill providing that the average price of each quality of coal sold in the twelve months preceding the War should be substituted in place of the corresponding price, such schedule of prices to be forwarded to the Board of Trade; and will he at the same time make it a criminal offence for anyone to sell coal at the pits above the scheduled prices other than for export purposes?
The Board of Trade have received complaints from time to time that the Act is being infringed, but so far as they are aware no case in which its infringement is alleged has come before the Courts. I doubt whether amending legislation on the lines suggested is desirable.
Are we to understand that although an Act of Parliament has been passed the Board of Trade do not intend to introduce legislation to see that the Act is carried into effect? Is my hon. Friend aware that the Act is being evaded?
My hon. Friend must assume nothing of the kind. The Act is on the whole being very fully observed. There have been a few complaints, but so far the complaints have been very few in number, and none of them have been carried to the Courts. There does not appear to us to be any justification for reopening the question here or for asking for further legislation.
Is my hon. Friend aware that both buyers and consumers are saying that they will not observe the Act, and are making bargains irrespective of the Act altogether? Having regard to that fact, which I can assure my hon. Friend is correct, will he take steps to see that the Act of Parliament is enforced?
We are perfectly prepared to consider any actual facts laid before the Board of Trade by my hon. Friend
Is not my hon. Friend aware that going into Court has proved a futile remedy for the purposes of this Act? No merchant will go into Court without he is refused all supplies.
I will call attention to the matter on the Adjournment to-night.
Coal Supplies
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has information to the effect that 77s. 6d. per ton freight was paid to a neutral steamer to carry coal from a Bristol Channel port to Buenos Aires last week; and if he can state what the rate of freight now is?
I am informed that no rate as high as 77s. 6d. has been paid for coal from the Bristol Channel to Buenos Aires, and that the highest rate last week was 76s. The market rate yesterday (Tuesday) from Cardiff to Buenos Aires was 62s. 6d.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that as freights go down the price of coal goes up?
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can now state the number of British, French, Norwegian, and other allied and neutral steamers, respectively, which loaded coal from Cardiff, Barry, and Penarth, to French ports during the three months ending 31st January, 1916; and whether he can give similar information for shipments from Newport and Swansea to France during the same period?
The numbers of steamers which loaded coal to French ports during the three months ending 31st January, 1916, from Cardiff, Barry, and Penarth are: British, 70; French, 175; Norwegian, 267; other allied and neutral, 92; from Newport, British, 63; French; 39; Norwegian, 96; others, 23; from Swansea, British, 96; French, 92; Norwegian, 257; others, 11.
As this is a very important matter, will the hon. Gentleman see that information is conveyed through the proper channels to France, so that misunderstanding may be removed from the French people as to the people of England?
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the stocks of coal at Dakar have been requisitioned; whether he is aware that the Argentine Government have prohibited the export of coal from Argentina, and will only allow steamers to obtain sufficient bunker coal to reach the next port from River Plate; whether there is a sufficient stock of coal at that port to bunker steamers for Dakar, St. Vincent, or the islands; and, if not, will he state how merchant steamers are to obtain bunkers to reach a Home port?
I am informed that the stocks of coal at Dakar were requisitioned, but that the authorities are now using colliers of their own to supply their needs. I understand that the Argentine authorities are limiting bunker supplies to the amount necessary to reach the next port from the River Plate; also that subject to tonnage being available there should be enough coal going to the River Plate ports to meet reasonable demands.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is entirely due to the shortage of merchant shipping, and that we shall shortly be short of coal altogether for foreign ports?
Trading With the Enemy Act
A. Wilson Peck and Company, Limited
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the German firm of A. Wilson Peck and Company, Limited, are also trading in Sheffield under the name of Hilton and Company; and will he lay this fact before the Committee charged with carrying out the provisions of the Trading With the Enemy Act?
Before the question is answered, may I inquire whether this firm is correctly described as a German firm in view of the fact that at the outbreak of the War it altered its articles so as to annul its German share holdings, and in view, also, of the fact that all its employés of military age have been either recruited or attested?
I think my answer will meet both questions. I will bring my hon. Friend's statement to the notice of the Committee to whom the case of A. Wilson Peck and Company, Limited, has been referred.
Is it not the fact, notwithstanding the question of the hon. Member opposite, that practically all the shares of this company are held by E. Bechstein, of Berlin?
All these mattters have gone before the Committee.
Is it not the case that Bechstein, of Berlin, is the only German shareholder, and that at the Board of Trade there is an application to sanction the transfer of his shares?
asked the President of the Board of Trade, whether he is aware that Max Lindlar, governing director of A. Wilson Peck and Company, is charged with making continued insulting remarks about the British people; and whether, seeing that this same person is now endeavouring to effect a sale of the shares held by E. Bechstein, of Berlin, in A. Wilson Peck and Company, Limited, in order to say that alien enemies do not control the company, he proposes to take any action in the matter?
:I have no knowledge of any remarks which may have been made by the governing director of A. Wilson Peck and Company, Limited. The case of this company has been referred to the Advisory Committee appointed under the Trading with the Enemy (Amendment) Act, 1916.
Has not the Board of Trade received from the editors of the trade journals some of the particular remarks referred to in the question?
I have not come across those remarks. The whole matter has been referred to the Committee.
Questions
South-Eastern and Chatham Railway (Workmen's Trains)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, as the South-Eastern and Chatham Railway Company are closing Walworth Road Station and taking off all workmen's trains, he can arrange with the company that they should stop all or a certain number of their main line and Crystal Palace workmen's trains at this station so as to enable the hundreds of workpeople who now use this station to have some facilities to reach their work?
I am bringing my hon. Friend's suggestion to the notice of the managing committee of the railway, and will inform him of the result.
Coast Defence (Bournemouth)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that the public are prohibited by armed guards from passing in front of the sea-side of the Hill Cliff Hotel, Bournemouth, after dusk; whether the hotel is managed by a man representing himself on the hotel bills as Mr. J. Stenbridge, which name is printed on a slip over the name of Mr. J. Steinberger; whether he has information to show that there is any connection between the two names; and whether Mr. J. Steinberger was an alien, and, if so, when was he naturalised?
The manager of the hotel in question is a Mr. J. Stenbridge, whose original name was Steinberger. The change of name was effected by Deed Poll in July, 1915. Mr. Stenbridge is of Austrian origin, and first came to this country in 1881. He was naturalised in 1906. He has been in this hotel since 1888, first as waiter and afterwards rising to be manager, and there appears to be no reason to doubt his loyalty to this country. The rule mentioned in the first paragraph of the question, which is enforced, I understand, by the local Volunteer Training Corps without arms, applies to all the cliffs and beach and adjoining roads between St. Alban's Head and Lymington River, and has no reference to this hotel.
Train Service (Euston to Inverness)
asked the Postmaster-General whether the train leaving Euston at 8 p.m. and due at Inverness at 9.35 the following morning has during the last six months ever arrived approximately to time, and how late this train arrives at Inverness, taking daily averages for the last three months and the last six months; and whether, seeing that this train carries mails for the North of Scotland and for various naval bases, and in view of the invariable lateness of its arrival and the inconvenience caused to the naval authorities, he proposes to take any action in the matter?
The train in question is usually late in reaching Inverness. Its late arrival is due to the late running of trains from the South which must arrive before it can leave Perth, and to the difficulty of working heavy traffic on a single line. I can hold out no hope of improvement in view of naval and military requirements.
Is there any reason why the King's Cross train leaving London at the same time should arrive every day much earlier than the Euston train; secondly, can the right hon. Gentleman answer that part of the question which asks the average lateness of this train?
I think the average lateness of the train is something like an hour and a half—perhaps rather more; the reason, no doubt, is due to the heavy coal and munitions traffic which is being run on the London and North-Western Railway up to Perth, where the East and West Coast trains join.
Is it heavier than on the King's Cross line?
I understand that that is so.
Telephone Service
asked the Postmaster-General how many booklets have been recently sent to telephone subscribers in the London area by his Department, instructing them how to use the telephone; and what is the cost of this printed matter?
About 247,000 copies of the pamphlet in question have been or will be distributed to telephone subscribers in London. The estimated outside cost is £190. The issue of the pamphlet was authorised and ordered before the war. It is issued at the present time because it is now specially important that the telephone service should be worked with the utmost efficiency and economy, and the pamphlet shows how telephone users may co-operate to that end.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say why subscribers are being sent numerous copies, and why in my own case I was sent six copies. Am I six times as stupid as others?
The reason why my hon. Friend was sent six copies was that although he may be one subscriber he has six lines—
There's economy for you!
With different operators, and it was thought advisable that each operator in the service of the hon. Member on the different lines should have a copy.
Soldiers' Letters from Hospitals
asked the Postmaster-General if the privilege given to soldiers at the front of sending letters home post-free can be extended to sick and wounded men in hospital in this country?
I regret that there are serious objections, both in principle and practice, to exempting letters from soldiers in hospitals in this country from prepayment of postage.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say why soldiers in France can have their letters franked, whilst soldiers returned from the other side are denied it?
It is very difficult, in a matter of this kind, to extend facilities to individuals in hospitals in this country. If any free licence were given at the present time, I am afraid there would be considerable abuse. It seems, on the whole, desirable that a line should be drawn between those in service on the Continent and those who are in hospital in this country.
Agricultural Labour (Scotland)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been drawn to the depletion of agricultural labourers in Scotland, resulting in the closing down of dairies and the non-cultivation of land; and if he can state what steps he proposes to take to prevent this depletion causing a serious shortage in the production of food in many districts?
I have received complaints of the kind referred to. As I said in reply to a question by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland yesterday, the agricultural interest, so far as I can judge, is well represented on the local tribunals, and full instructions have been issued to the tribunals with regard to the considerations mentioned in the question.
Can the right hon. Gentleman do anything to facilitate Irish labourers coming over as usual this year?
I do not know what I can do to facilitate it. I think it is a matter which must be left to the employers. As the hon. Member is aware, Irish labourers can come over under present conditions.
Discharged Soldiers (Settlement on the Land)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he has received a resolution passed at the Scottish smallholders' conference held at Aberdeen, and attended by 150 delegates from all parts of Scotland, drawing the attention of the Government to the necessity of offering the utmost facilities to men returning from the War of settling the population on the land; whether any steps are being taken in the direction indicated; whether steps in the direction of the appointment of a Commission on the lines of the Verney Commission for England and Wales are to be taken in Scotland; whether, since the commencement of the War, several farms have been offered for the purposes of small holdings without any claim being advanced for capital depreciation; and whether, in view of the number of men being discharged from the Army weekly, he can give any assurance that arrangements will be made to utilise the land offering and acquire other land necessary for settling the men on the land?
I have received a copy of the resolution referred to. As regards the second part of the question, I am unable to add anything to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for East Perthshire on the 17th of last month. I am not in a position to confirm the statement that several farms have been offered for the purposes of small holdings without any claim being advanced for capital depreciation, but am in communication with the Board of Agriculture on that subject and would be glad if my hon. Friend would kindly supply me with particulars of the farms which he has in view. The whole question of providing land for discharged soldiers is receiving the careful attention of the Government at the present moment.
Excess Profits Tax
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether instructions have been given to the surveyors of Income Tax that it is improper to compute any liability to Excess Profits Duty by reference to any account or statement based on the same principle as the profits or gains of the trade or business are or would be determined for the purpose of the Income Tax subject to modifications, but the liability is to be computed by reference to the figures of the accounts made up for the taxpayer's own purposes and not for Income Tax purposes; and, if so, having regard to Clause 40 of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915, will he say why such instructions have been given?
No instructions inconsistent with the provisions of Section 40 of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915, have been issued to surveyors of taxes by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue. I may remind my hon. Friend that the accounting period for the Excess Profits Duty may differ from the period for which an Income Tax account is made up, and, moreover, that the principles of the Income Tax are applicable only with material modifications.
Foreign Exchanges (France)
asked whether this Government is co-operating with the French Government in order to bring about more favourable conditions as regards the rates of foreign exchanges at present prevailing in France?
His Majesty's Government is doing everything in its power to assist the French Government in maintaining the foreign exchanges. In particular, arrangements have recently been made, as stated in the Press, for facilitating through the Banks of England and France the sale on the British market of securities held in France for the purpose of financing French purchases in the United Kingdom and so relieving the pressure on the exchange arising out of such purchases.
Sugar Supplies
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the cargo of 3,000 tons of sugar which arrived in Dublin on the 15th instant is entirely composed of Mauritius sugar for manufacturing purposes only; whether there is a scarcity in Dublin of sugar for ordinary household purposes; and whether he will take steps to have a cargo of such sugar sent to Dublin immediately?
The consignment in question was composed entirely of Mauritius sugar, and is suitable for all purposes and not for manufacturing purposes only. It will be disposed of without restriction as to its uses. I am not aware that the supply of sugar in Dublin is more restricted than elsewhere, but arrangements have already been made for delivery there very shortly of a further consignment of fine sugar.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether that will be within the next week?
I think within less time than that, but I will make inquiries.
Restricted Imports (Preserved Fruits)
( by Private Notice ) asked the President of the Board of Trade if, with a view to removing the uncertainty in the trade concerned, he can now state definitely whether licences will be granted for the importation of preserved fruits by the steamship "Crown of Toledo"?
It has been decided to grant licences for the importation of all such fruit for which space had been booked by this steamer on or before 27th January.
National Insurance Act
Deprivation of Benefit (Referee's Decision)
asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, whether it has been found that a woman insured in the approved society conducted by the Prudential Assurance Company, and receiving a weekly allowance as insurance benefit therefrom, can be deprived of that benefit by the individual decision of a referee appointed by the Prudential Company without previous knowledge of the case and without consultation or communication with her panel doctor; whether a woman thus deprived of benefit or otherwise treated with harshness can under No. 13 (30 b ) of the approved society's rules be required, as a condition of obtaining redress or getting her case submitted for impartial inquiry, to deposit a sum which may amount to so much as £1, and in case of an adverse decision to forfeit the deposit and pay the whole of the expenses of the arbitration; whether along with the notice of deprivation of benefit any information is given to the insured person as to the existence of a right of appeal or the nature of the steps to be taken to bring about such appeal; whether the said Rule 13 is one of forty-eight rules which cover seventy-two pages of a printed book; and whether it is proposed to leave unaltered a state of the law which makes benefits so precarious and redress so difficult to persons of small means from whom compulsory contributions have been levied?
It rests with the society of which an insured person is a member to determine, subject to the member's right of appeal, whether the facts of a given case justify the payment of benefit, and any medical evidence obtained in accordance with the rules is for the guidance of the society in coming to a decision. In the case of the particular society named in the question, I understand that where a member is required to submit herself for special medical examination under the rule referred to, steps are now taken to inform the doctor by whom she has been attended, and that, where the matter is referred to a medical umpire, it is not the society's practice to require any deposit, although the payment of a deposit is authorised by the rule. I am also informed that in all cases in which payment of benefit is suspended on the report of a medical referee the member is now furnished with information as to the course which she may pursue if dissatisfied with the society's decision. The particulars given in the fourth part of the question are substantially correct. Copies of the rules are available to members on payment of a sum not exceeding 2d. As regards the last part of the question, I am sending the right hon. Gentleman a copy of a circular issued by my Department in May last on the subject of procedure in disputes between societies and their members.
Do the changes which the hon. Gentleman has announced date since the inquiry into this particular case?
I am not quite sure of the date, but I think the changes have been made comparatively recently.
Questions
Labour Exchanges (Advisory Committees)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state for how many of the 400 Labour Exchanges a joint advisory committee of employers and employed has been appointed; on what dates the appointment of the existing committees was made and for what terms; what is the reference to such committees and how are the members chosen; how often the committees meet and whether they appoint their own secretaries; whether the methods of working of the Labour Exchange are open to the supervision of the committee so that they may assure themselves that the conditions of the Act of Parliament are being carried out; whether any Report has been presented to Parliament as to the working of these committees; and when it is proposed to appoint committees in respect of such of the 400 Labour Exchanges as have not been provided with them?
I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of the General Regulations made under the Labour Exchanges Act, 1909. Regulation VII. shows the terms for which the committees are appointed, the reference to such committees, and the method of choosing their members. I am also sending a list showing the dates of appointment of the committees, and the Labour Exchanges in the area of each committee. Every Labour Exchange comes within the area of one of the committees. The committees meet at different intervals, usually about four times each year. An officer of the Board of Trade acts as secretary. It is not a function of the committees directly to supervise the administrative working of the Labour Exchanges, but questions relating to the management of Labour Exchanges are referred to them by the Board for their advice and assistance. No Report on the working of the committees has yet been presented to Parliament. I assume that the question does not refer to Advisory Committees concerned only with juvenile employment, of which some 150 are working in connection with Labour Exchanges.
[ Immediately before the Orders of the Day were reached, a military officer, who had been seated in the Strangers' Gallery, climbed over the balustrade into the Ambassadors' Gallery, and thence over the front rail, from which he dropped to the floor, below the Bar. Regaining his feet, he said, "I am asked to ash you to protect the heads of British soldiers against shrapnel fire." He was at once removed by the attendants. ]
New Member Sworn
Percy Alfred Harris, Esquire, for the County of Leicester (Southern, or Harborough Division).
Private Bills
Message from the Lords, that they have agreed to,—Aberdeen Corporation Water Order Confirmation Bill, with Amendments.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled "An Act for conferring power upon the Senior Official Receiver in Companies Liquidation, acting as liquidator of the Weston-super-Mare Grand Pier Company, to sell by agreement the undertaking of that company; to extend the time for the completion of the authorised pier and works of that company; and for other purposes." [Weston-super-Mare Grand Pier Bill [ Lords. ]
Aberdeen Corporation Water Order Confirmation Bill,
Lords Amendments to be considered To-morrow.
Weston-super-Mare Grand Pier Bill [ Lords ],
Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Orders of the Day
Business of the House
Will the right hon. Gentleman who is leading the House let us know at what hour this evening the President of the Local Government Board will make his promised statement?
We hope that considerable progress may be made with the small Bills on the Paper, but, in any case, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House will be made some time between five and six o'clock, that is to say, not later. If the Bills are through sooner, of course the Motion will be made earlier.
Imperial Institute (Management) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
By Statute, the Imperial Institute is under the Board of Trade, but for the last nine or ten years, by arrangement with the Board of Trade, the Colonial Office and the India Office, the control was transferred to the Colonial Office, and all that this Bill does in this respect is to make the legal position correspond with what the facts have been for something like ten years. The second part of the Bill is simply a question of altering the management of the Institute, and I think it will be sufficient if I point out to the House that at present the Institute is run by the Colonial Office assisted by an advisory committee. That arrangement is not found to work as well as it might. The advisory committee has no responsibility, and what we propose is that an executive department, composed in the main in the same way as the advisory body, should be set up, and that it should have the actual control, under the Colonial Office. I may say that the only reason why it seems to us advisable to do this at the present time is that not only is this Institute doing valuable work now, but in future, when the time arrives for reconstruction after the War, it will be able to do much more valuable work, and for that reason we desire that it should be under the best possible management.
I should like to ask my right hon. Friend whether he considers the management will be improved by the substitution of an executive council of twenty-five members for a body of three. I understand that at present there is an advisory body of three, and the schedule of the Bill proposes that the executive council shall consist of twenty-five members. That seems to me to be rather a large body and not one likely to lead to efficient working. It may be that on the Committee stage I shall move to reduce that number, but I do not want to take that course if my right hon. Friend thinks that there is any advantage to be gained by having a larger body, although I must confess that I do not think so.
The reason for making the council larger is that it has been represented that the present board of management is not as good as it ought to be. A great deal of useful work is now being done in connection with the Institute, and we wish it to be done in the best possible way. When the time for reconstruction comes after the War the Imperial Institute should play a bigger part, and for that reason I desire that the management should be under a larger body.
I think the object of this measure is in the right direction. Some years ago the Imperial Institute was little more than a white elephant, but it has gradually made its way in the Empire, and I believe that at the present time it is doing valuable work for all parts of the Empire. I ask the Colonial Secretary if, when the Bill is in Committee, he will favourably consider the question of increasing the direct representation of the important Dominions and also some of the Colonies, because we have found in the past—and I had the honour of being on the late Advisory Committee—that one of the drawbacks which the Imperial Institute has had to contend with is a want of funds. I believe that if the representation of the Dominions was increased it would be very easy to get from the Dominions very substantial assistance towards carrying on the great Imperial work which I believe it is possible for this Institute to do, and to do even more than it is doing at the present time.
Does this mean any further expenditure?
None whatever.
I am heartily in favour of the Bill that has been introduced by the Secretary for the Colonies. It certainly seems to me much more appropriate, having regard to the work which the Imperial Institute is called upon to perform, that it should come under the direct management of the Colonial Office and not under the Board of Trade. I agree that the Imperial Institute in the past has done and is doing a very large amount of useful work both for this country and our Dominions over seas, and I think very great credit is due to the present director, Professor Dunstan, for the able manner in which he took over the work and discharged the important duties which fell to him. Professor Dunstan has succeeded in getting together at the Imperial Institute the largest collection of the products of our Colonies to be found anywhere, and to me it is a matter of regret that this splendid collection is not more accessible to business men. The position in which the Institute is situated, excellent as it is for students who may come there to spend a whole day, is not equally serviceable to business men in the City who might like to pop in for half-an-hour or an hour to make themselves acquainted with some of the newest products from India and some of our Colonies. The right hon. Gentleman will recognise that this difficulty was foreseen years ago when the Imperial Institute was first established, and an effort was then made to establish a branch of the Institute in the City available for merchants and commercial men. I hope that that consideration may also be brought under the notice of the new committee of management which is to be appointed under this Bill.
There is one other aspect of the Imperial Institute to which, I think, it is important to draw attention, and as this appears to be the best opportunity I will now say a few words upon it. The Imperial Institute, in addition to having a large number of useful products from our Dominions and the Colonies, has also done a large amount of work in the matter of chemical research. Professor Dunstan has inaugurated this important scientific work, which has been of very great advantage to all our Dominions, and it is very desirable that this practical work should be continued. I know that the accommodation at the disposal of Professor Dunstan is not altogether what one would like it to be, and I desire that it should be extended in order that the useful scientific work in which he has now been engaged for so many years may also be increased. I should like to see the work of the Imperial Institute more closely associated with the Imperial College of Science and Technology, and I hope this matter will be brought under the notice of the new committee of management about to be appointed. The college was established a few years ago not as a local institution but as an Imperial institution, and the chemical work which is being earned on in the large range of laboratories immediately opposite the Imperial Institute might be associated more closely than it is at present with the research work which is being carried on in the Imperial Institute. Possibly those matters may be brought under the consideration of the Committee of Management, if it is appointed.
There is just one other matter to which I should like to take this opportunity of drawing attention. I should like to see the work of the Imperial Institute made more educational. At the present moment the researches that are carried on there are of immense value, but if the work could be more closely connected with that of the Imperial College of Science and Technology, we might have trained in that institution a number of students who, by having access to the splendid collections in the Imperial Institute, would be able after the War to act as agents and to take their place in the Colonies, doing that kind of work which, unfortunately for ourselves, has been so successfully done by German scientifically-trained men. It is for this reason I am very desirous that the work of the Imperial Institute should be extended and should be associated with the Imperial College so that its educational work might be of more value. The Imperial College at the present time receives a large number of students from India, Australia, and from other parts of the King's Dominions, but I would like to see students trained in the Imperial College in connection with the Imperial Institute who might go out to the Colonies and to our Dominions and have a successful career. It is necessary for such a training that they should receive a broad, wide, and scientific education. Let me point out that we in this country have nothing approaching what one might call a High School of Commerce. We have all the elements for the establishment of such a school. There will be opened shortly a School of Oriental Languages. We have also the School of Economics, and we have the Imperial Institute. If we could bring the Imperial Institute into closer connection with the Imperial College of Science and Technology, the scientific side of the work of commerce, which is extremely important, might be more satisfactorily developed. I venture just briefly to throw out these suggestions without asking for any immediate reply, but in the hope that they may be brought under the consideration of the Committee about to be set up.
I did not catch the few words said by my hon. Friend the Member for Roxburgh (Sir J. Jardine), and it is possible that he made the remark which I am about to make; if so, I apologise to the House. According to the proposed composition of the new body, India will be represented by two members appointed by the Secretary of State, and one by the Government of India, and the Colonies will be represented by eighteen members. I really do not suggest that there is any thing wrong about this. The fourteen to be appointed by the Secretary of State for the Colonies will presumably have Colonial associations, and then there are four to be directly appointed by the great governing Dominions. That may be quite right. I cannot recall the proportion of the cost of raising the Imperial Institute borne by subscriptions from India, but, speaking from memory, I think the ruling chiefs contributed very large sums. It is worth consideration—possibly the Secretary of State for the Colonies may think it worth while to say a word about it—whether the representation given to India is proportionate to the assistance given by India in the formation of the Imperial Institute. For the rest, I have only to express my agreement with my hon. Friend as to the value of the exhibits in the Institute to City men. I do not quite know how the Institute and the City are to be brought nearer together. It is hardly possible to have a subsidiary Imperial Institute in Finsbury Circus, and I do not quite know when the School of Oriental Learning will be completed, but when it is ready the building will not be large enough to house even selections from these great collections. Like other persons connected with the City, I am aware of the excellent work done by Professor Wyndham Dunstan, and I wish to add my humble tribute to it.
May I support what has been said about the representation of India. Considering the great proportion which the Indian section bears to the Imperial Institute, I do hope the right hon. Gentleman will consider this matter and see if he cannot give two representatives to the Government of India instead of the one now proposed.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for to-morrow (Thursday).
Pacific Islands Regulations (Validation) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
I will try to anticipate any criticism of my right hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury) by saying that I certainly would not have brought forward any Bill of this kind in the present circumstances if I had not thought it was really necessary. This Bill is much simpler than the last one. The Law Officers have told me that they have some little doubt whether something which has been done for a number of years in the Western Pacific Islands is strictly legal, and this Bill is for the sole purpose of making certain that what has been done under the Orders of His Majesty's Government has been correctly done. I do not know whether the House desires that any explanation should be given as to the reason of the doubt. I hope not, but, if so, my right hon. Friend the Solicitor-General (Sir G. Cave) will be prepared to give the information.
I do not understand the Bill myself, but as far as I can make out the Government have done something which they ought not to have done, which is not unusual, and now they come down to us and ask us to put them in a proper and legal position. As far as I am concerned, I shall be delighted to do so.
This is not one of the crimes of the present Government. It is twelve years old.
I would like to be assured that this is not concerned with any possible litigation that may be going on.
None whatever.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.
Marriage (Scotland) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
I think I can explain the simple proposals of this Bill, which have been very fully set forth in the Memorandum in a very few words. Some Little time ago representatives of the Churches in Scotland came to us and pointed out that under the present circumstances of war it was more difficult for men who were engaged in naval or military service to contract regular marriages than it was in ordinary times of peace. As my right hon. and gallant Friend knows, it is very easy to contract a marriage in Scotland.
I do not know that.
4.0 P.M.
It is a little difficult if a man has only a week's leave to contract a regular marriage. The Churches thought it was a pity that the number of irregular marriages should increase and that of regular marriages diminish, and probably the House will agree with the Churches on that point. What is proposed is to shorten, in the case of soldiers or sailors serving with the forces—and only during the War—the period during which it is obligatory to proclaim of banns. That is one purpose of the Bill. The other is one which I have no doubt the House will approve. There is a practice in Scotland, if a person contracts an irregular marriage and wishes to have it registered, of going before the sheriff and declaring before him that they have contracted an irregular marriage. Instances have occurred when the agents of these parties or the parties themselves have neglected to complete the process of registration, and it is therefore thought desirable to provide that the parties themselves should make this declaration and provide the necessary material for registration as set forth in the Schedule of this Bill, and it should then be committed to the sheriff's clerk to see that registration is completed. Hon. Members will appreciate it is very desirable at the present time there should be a record of these marriages, which are sometimes rather hastily undertaken, and this Bill will make the registration automatic. These are the two principal purposes of the Bill. The other purpose is one which is set forth in the Memorandum, and is purely a legal point. I hope the House will see that the Bill is really connected with the necessities and circumstances of the War, and will be good enough to give it a Second Reading.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland has clearly explained that Clause 4 of the Bill has been brought forward in response to a request advanced on behalf of the Churches of Scotland to enable persons wishing to contract regular marriages to dispense with the seven clear days' notice which is at present required before the marriage can be solemnised. This Clause is therefore a purely war emergency measure. But it is well that Members of the House should know that the other parts of the Bill represent a change in the procedure of the marriage laws, and, as it is proposed to make this change, I feel it worth while to suggest to my right hon. Friends who are responsible for the Bill that they should take advantage of this opportunity to alter the name given to these irregular marriages which are contracted before the sheriff. [Mr. McKINNON WOOD dissented.] I see my right hon. Friend objects, but I should like to put this point. Those of us who are familiar with Scottish law know there are a variety of kinds of irregular marriages in Scotland. There has grown up an established practice in regard to many irregular marriages of obtaining a decree of the sheriff and subsequently having it registered. That is the form of marriage to which Clause 1 applies. This procedure has been adopted in Scotland by the particular class of persons who, in England, would go before the registrar and be married in civil fashion. They are people who do not desire to have an ecclesiastical marriage, and I suggest it is placing a stigma on a marriage of that description to describe it as an irregular marriage. There is no irregularity about it. It is simply a term used in Scottish law to describe this particular form of marriage. Under present conditions these marriages do not deserve that any such stigma should attach to them, and I do suggest to my right hon. Friend that in as much as they are proposing to amend the procedure in regard to these so-called irregular marriages they should also take the opportunity of getting rid of this term "irregular," and of describing these marriages, which, after all, are carried out in a perfectly decent and orderly way, as civil marriages. This might be easily done by a simple Amendment of the first Clause of the Bill, and I believe it would meet the wishes of a very large number of people in Scotland. I therefore hope that the Secretary for Scotland will reconsider the rather hasty decision which he indicated when I first made my suggestion.
The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland has invoked my assistance to aid him in passing this Bill owing to my knowledge of Scottish law with regard to irregular marriages. I can assure him that my knowledge on this matter happens to be limited, but as it seems Scottish Members generally approve this proposal, I should be sorry to prevent the passing of the Bill as an emergency measure.
I am sorry the right hon. Gentleman who last spoke thinks this Bill has the approval of the Scottish Members in its phraseology. Of course, we shall be very glad to get three-fourths of it as a permanent change of the law and one quarter only as an emergency change. But the point which a large number of Scottish Members desire to be satisfied upon is whether or not these marriages are to be continued to be called in Scotland irregular marriages. I am perfectly sure my right hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Lockwood) if he had been married in Scotland in that way would have objected to his marriage being called irregular. The adjective "irregular" suggests a great many things which are covered by the word "stigma," and it is not fair to the children who are born of parents in Scotland that their parents' marriage should be described as irregular when all that really takes place is that it is a civil marriage in the same way as similar marriages under different technical arrangements are carried out South of the Tweed before the registrar. I would suggest to my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland that this Bill will have a very easy passage if he and the Lord Advocate will agree to make this proposed change in the name applicable to this particular law. If he cannot see his way to do that the passage of the Bill may even be irregular, and, therefore, I hope my right hon. Friend will agree to the suggestion, which is made in all good faith and with a desire to see this Bill placed on the Statute Book as speedily as possible. This is one of those great opportunities which occur only once in a man's lifetime, and if my right hon. Friend will remove the stigma from the marriages of many of his fellow countrymen he will have done much to redeem, his administration as Secretary for Scotland.
I have listened carefully to the proposal made by my hon. Friends, and I venture to think that to a certain extent it is based upon a misapprehension of the facts. The hon. Member for North-West Lanark (Mr. Pringle) seems to suggest that the marriages with which this Bill deals take place before the sheriff. As a matter of fact the sheriff's part does not come in until after the marriage has taken place; then the consent of the parties having been exchanged in the agent's office or anywhere else, he is asked to grant a warrant to register the marriage. All the sheriff has to do is to receive evidence of facts on which to grant the warrant. He does not marry the parties. The difference between regular and the irregular marriage, as my hon. and learned Friend knows, is that in the case of a regular marriage there is either a proclamation of banns or notice given under the Act of 1878. That constitutes a regular marriage. On the other hand, an irregular marriage suffers from defects which this Bill does not purport to cure. There is no notice given by proclamation of banns, and no notice under the Act of 1878. What I would venture to point out is that this Bill does not set out to alter the character of the marriage described as irregular. That has been a term—I will not say of art—but a familiar term for a long number of years. It carries no stigma with it, and merely distinguishes between one class of marriage and the other. The distinction will remain if this Bill is passed, and I hope my hon. and learned Friend will therefore reconsider his proposal. After all, it is a Committee point.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.
Local Government (Emergency Provisions) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
This Bill is an omnibus Bill, and, like much of our legislation at present, an emergency Bill. It is a Bill with two main purposes—one to deal with a certain situation creating administrative difficulties with our local authorities, and the other to promote a variety of economies in money, time, and labour. The first part of the Bill consists of three Clauses, which are designed to regularise and legalise the position of local authorities with regard to certain payments and allowances which they have made to their officers and servants on joining the Colours. The Bill assimilates the practice of the local authorities in the main with the practice of the Civil Service. The Civil Service practice is governed by certain circulars addressed by the Treasury to Departments of the Civil Service. The local authorities had no such Regulations issued to them. It is obvious that, whereas the Treasury has control over the Civil Service, the Local Government Board, while it has influence, has no control over the local authorities. On the whole and in the main the practice of the local authorities conforms to the practice of the Civil Service, but where it has not done so it has tended to bring the local authorities into conflict with the district auditor. The local authorities at the commencement of the War were, very naturally, desirous to promote recruiting and to induce their officers and servants to join His Majesty's Forces, and, animated by that very laudable motive, in some cases they entered into more or less quasi-contractural obligations with officers and servants which others with a greater knowledge than themselves might think to have been somewhat excessive in generosity, and possibly not to be defended altogether at the present time. Where these payments and allowances were in excess of the Civil Service scale, these local authorities did come into rather sharp conflict, in one or two cases, with the district auditor. Whether or not or how far they are liable to be surcharged it is not necessary for me to say.
We do not desire to be too censorious of these local authorities for what they did in the early stages of the War from motives which were laudable, motives of generosity, and a really genuine desire to help their country. What we desire to do is to legalise and regularise those payments both for the present and for the future. The Bill seeks to apply the Civil Service scale to the payments of these local authorities. The Local Government Board take power to condone any excess payments that have been made up to the passing of this Bill, but after the passing of this Bill it will be expected that these local authorities shall conform to the practice of the Civil Service—a practice which, I may say, has been adopted by the London County Council and by large towns like Birmingham, Liverpool, and other places, and which still is the general practice, so far as I can ascertain, of local authorities. In future these payments and allowances will be binding on the local authority only to the extent to which they would be binding if the provisions of this Bill had been in force at the time when they were made. It may be observed that we do not seek to impose upon local authorities the necessity of reducing their payments where the officer or servant of the local authority is obtaining increased pay or reward by reason of promotion. I think that would be manifestly unfair. It is not the practice of the Civil Service. It would be a misfortune to take it away from a man who, by his good conduct and his zeal in his service, had obtained promotion and therefore increased pay or a reward was given to him in payment for that service. Clause 2 of the Bill safeguards the position of the officer or servant in regard to superannuation so far as the widow or dependants can profit by that superannuation. Clause 3 of the Bill safeguards the pension rights of the man himself. It enables his service with the Colours to be aggregated and reckoned with his services as an officer or servant of the local authority so far as superannuation is concerned. That is all I need say about the first three Clauses of the Bill.
Part II. of the Bill contains fourteen Clauses, the bulk of which are directed towards effecting various economies in time, labour, and money. Economy is being impressed upon everyone at the present time, upon the State, upon local authorities, and upon individuals. We have recently had the Final Report of the Committee on Retrenchment in Public Expenditure. Paragraph 44 of that Report makes a specific recommendation to the Local Government Board. It recommends that the Local Government Board should take immediate steps to revise the fees paid to medical practitioners for the notification of infectious diseases, and that the time has come to reduce the 2s. 6d. fee to 1s. Clause 5 of the Bill carries out that recommendation of the Retrenchment Committee. But the Retrenchment Committee went on to make a much far wider recommendation than it made in paragraph 44. In paragraph 76 of the Final Report of the Retrenchment Committee they express the hope that all Government Departments, not only the Local Government Board, should require local authorities to furnish simpler and less elaborate returns, statements of claims, and generally that their financial statements ordinarily supplied to the Local Government Board should be replaced temporarily by much simpler returns, and say that thereby a great deal of clerical labour might, at all events during the period of the War, be done away with. That is extremely important in view of the fact of the very great depletion in the staffs of all local authorities, and, indeed, of Government Departments. The only way in which you can secure that younger men should be released for service with the Colours is to exempt the local authorities from making, in many cases, these very elaborate returns, from making up accounts which require a fairly large army of clerks to make up, and which are not actually necessary during the period of the War.
Having that advice and admonition of the Retrenchment Committee before him, my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board looked about for fields in which these economies could be exercised. One of the most fertile fields in which economy can be exercised is the field of Poor Law accounts and returns, where payments are made, accounts rendered, and statistical accounts are furnished which are of the most complex character, requiring a perfect host of clerks to make them out, but which are not absolutely necessary to good government. We think that, at all events for the period of the War, these might well be dispensed with. Before the Report of the Retrenchment Committee was issued my right hon. Friend called a conference at the Local Government Board of the various chairmen of the boards of guardians in London, people concerned with Metropolitan Asylums Board, and people concerned with the Poor Law, and he put various proposals before them. Those proposals were all directed to the same end, to simplifying the accounts and returns, to doing away with a good many of them, to substituting stereotyped years instead of the exact years at which payment should be made, and generally to simplifying the whole machinery by which the accounts were to be rendered and payments were made from the Exchequer contribution funds and other funds. As a result of the conference, Clauses 7, 8, and 9 appear in this Bill. They appear to be very difficult to understand, but they are all really directed to accomplishing one purpose only. The charge remains exactly where it remained before, but the way in which charges are arrived at is a very short cut compared with the long roundabout way by which they were arrived at before this Bill was framed or this Bill threw a kind of shadow upon the local authorities. All these proposals have been submitted to the London County Council, the Metropolitan Asylums Board, and the chairmen of the Finance Committees of various boards of guardians, and have received their unanimous assent. If these reforms are carried out there will be an immense saving of labour, and the release of very many clerks whose time hitherto has been occupied upon these elaborate returns. All this can be done without losing any proper financial control or prejudicing sound finance. These three Clauses apply only to the London area. Clauses 12, 13, and 14 are directed exactly to the same end, namely, economy in local government in the Local Government Board. For instance, Clause 12 substitutes for the ordinary instrument under seal, which is a rather elaborate document that takes a little time to get up and has to be printed, and goes through all kinds of processes—the Clause substitutes for that instrument under seal a letter signed by a secretary or assistant-secretary of the Board.
made an observation, which was inaudible in the Reporters' Gallery.
None of these matters in themselves taken alone would effect any great economy, but if you take them in the bulk they effect very considerable economies, and will release a very great deal of labour which can be employed better otherwise. Clause 13 dispenses with numerous Returns which are called for by the House of Commons under numerous Acts of Parliament—for instance, the Local Taxation Returns which Parliament insisted upon having and which consist of very many volumes. For that we propose that a summary of these accounts shall be substituted. These accounts can always be obtained by Returns if anybody desires it, but this provision will save a good deal of expense.
What about Subsection (2) of Clause 13?
That provides that a board of guardians shall not be required to report to the Local Government Board the proceedings of its assessment committee. If the right hon. Baronet desires to discuss that in Committee, we shall be very pleased to discuss it with him. We do not think it does away with any safeguard we ought to have in respect of local government. Clause 14 applies to the publication of notices with regard to audit by the Local Government Board. It proposes to take those powers now possessed in regard to parish councils and to confer them on county councils and boards of guardians. There are one or two other Clauses which are put into the Bill which could not be described, perhaps, as effecting economies. All of these Clauses stand, as it were, in watertight compartments. If, when we get into Committee, the House wishes to criticise or in any way alter them, any one of those Clauses could be torpedoed in Debate without losing the benefit of the Bill. The Bill is directed towards two objects, the legalising and regularising of the procedure and action of various local authorities arising out of this War and to effecting economy in time, money, and labour. It is emergency legislation, and it is limited to the period of the War and to a period of twelve months after the War.
Except Clauses 2 and 3.
Yes, except Clauses 2 and 3, which relate to superannuation. I cannot help thinking that the economies which have been forced upon us by the necessities of the War may be wise economies to be exercised after the War is over, and some of those economies which were effected either before or during the War will be perpetuated after the War.
Can my right hon. Friend say whether the Clauses in the Bill affecting Medical Officers of Health have been submitted to the British Medical Association or to any representative members of the medical profession?
I cannot answer my hon. Friend as to whether they have or have not been submitted. I will give him the information before we get into Committee.
The Bill raises questions of considerable importance. The first part authorises local authorities to make payments to their officers who are serving in His Majesty's Forces. I sympathise entirely with that object, which is one that is really being carried out by local authorities at present. As my right hon. Friend made reference to payments made by local authorities in excess of the Civil Service pay, that was done at a time when the Government were urging local authorities with all their force to use every possible endeavour to promote recruiting for the Army. I sympathise entirely with the proposal made in the Bill, but it means a very large expenditure out of the rates, and that gives very special interest to the second object of the Bill, which is defined in the Preamble as "to make various administrative provisions with a view to economy in money and labour in connection with the present War." I welcome these provisions, and I hope other Government Departments will consider whether they may not take powers of a similar kind with a view to promoting similar economies. No doubt the relief from the obligation to make expensive returns will be a great convenience to local authorities at present, and will save some money, but again these administrative provisions will not, I fear, account for a very great deal in the matter of money, and I want to ask whether the Local Government Board are considering other measures for promoting economy in local administration, and whether there may not be other emergency powers which it will be useful for them to seek. Local authorities are no doubt trying at present to reduce their expenditure, and I quite realise the great difficulties in their way. The increased cost of labour and materials, and the allowance they are making to their officers, and so forth, make it very difficult, but I cannot help being struck by the fact that when one compares the rates declared by county boroughs during the year which is just closing with those declared in the year ending 31st March, 1914—the last complete year before the War—one finds that there have been considerable increases of rates in a very large number of cases. In eleven boroughs there has been a decrease in rates during the past year as compared with the year ending in March, 1914; there has been no change in eleven, but there have been increases in fifty-nine boroughs, including London, and there is very great variation in these rates. The decreases have varied from 1d. in the £ to 5½d., and the increases have ranged from 1d. in the £ to as much in one case as 1s. 4d. in the £. No doubt there may be explanations in a great many cases. I do not want to name any particular town, because comparison might be unfair, but one cannot help being struck by the fact that where conditions as regards the War are precisely similar, in one case you find the rate has decreased and in another it has risen very largely. That seems to require explanation, and it is very difficult to explain these divergences. I cannot help thinking that some of the municipalities have not risen to the height of the emergency, and I should like to ask, therefore, whether the Local Government Board have examined these figures and will make representations to local authorities in suitable cases. I should be one of the last in ordinary times to suggest that the Local Government Board should interfere with local authorities in their expenditure out of the rates, but these are not ordinary times. This is a time when all expenditure, both public and private, is a matter of national concern, therefore I ask my right hon. Friend whether the Local Government Board have given close attention to the subject, and whether it might be useful to them to have their hands strengthened by some general authority from Parliament authorising them to call for explanations from local authorities in suitable cases and to make representations to them with regard to the reduction of expenditure. The matter is of very great importance, and I hope my right hon. Friend will give me an assurance that it is having the earnest attention of the Local Government Board.
I should like to join with my hon. Friend in welcoming this Bill, and I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman and the President of the Local Government Board on their efforts to effect economy, but I am bound to agree with the hon. Member opposite that they might go further in certain directions, especially in putting pressure on the local authorities in regard to economy. I notice that they are going to omit a certain number of very elaborate returns, and no doubt that will result in a very considerable saving—probably far more than most people are aware. Some of the returns are most elaborate and involve an enormous amount of labour and the setting free of that labour will serve the double purpose of economising and setting men free for military service. On one point in the early part of the Bill it hardly goes far enough, and that is in regard to the amount of payments which are sanctioned by the local authorities towards men who are serving with the forces. My right hon. Friend said that the Local Government Board did not wish to be too censorious of these local authorities who had dealt very generously with their employes when they offered themselves for service, and I entirely assent to that view. But, on the other hand, these local authorities are the guardians of the ratepayers, and it is not quite fair that in certain localities they should be excessively generous at the ratepayers' expense.
I have in my mind the case of a schoolmaster of a secondary school under a local authority. He is a single man, who was before the War drawing a salary of £180 a year. He joined the forces as a private, and the only deduction made from his salary is 1s. a day. He has been promoted to the rank of sergeant, so that he is now drawing, I think, 24s. a week, and my right hon. Friend says you cannot diminish his pay from the local authority because he has been promoted to be a sergeant. I can see the force of that argument. It might in some degree discourage a man from becoming a sergeant if he were told he would not receive any increased pay, though I should have thought the other advantages of being a sergeant would be sufficient not to discourage him from doing his best in the ranks. But they do not take into account apparently the maintenance of this man, who is having his board and lodging for nothing as the net result. By the mere fact of joining the forces he is about £80 a year better off than when he was teaching. With the many cases of hardship on every hand all over the country of men who are suffering great pecuniary disadvantage by joining the Army, it is not reasonable that the employé of a local authority should have his position improved in that way as a result. I think my right hon. Friend should do something somehow to procure equality and similarity of action by the different local authorities. I only wish to make that one point. I heartily welcome the Bill.
I desire, on behalf of the County Councils Association, to say that their Parliamentary Committee has gone carefully through the Bill, and, subject to certain small Amendments, it is one to which they can give their hearty concurrence. I am also glad that my right hon. Friend has brought the Bill in, because those who have been connected with Local Government for a good many years have experienced a great many difficulties which by this legislation it is intended to avoid, and I can only hope the right hon. Gentleman will give us an assurance that when we come to ask for the sanction of the Local Government Board we shall be met on all occasions in a sympathetic spirit, and that he will, so far as he can, give his decisions in accordance with the wishes and views of those who ask for the sanction of the governing authorities. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman how it comes about that the Standing Joint Committees are to be excluded entirely from the Bill. We have at present in the North of England on a certain Standing Joint Committee a question already under discussion by the auditor of the Local Government Board in regard to this very matter which is raised in the first three Clauses. It may be said that the Standing Joint Committees are under the Home Office, but the Local Government Board auditor is the gentleman who is taking objection to one of these very payments which it is intended to regularise by the Clauses of this Bill. In regard to other Clauses, I welcome the suggestion that, in Committee, we may propose some Amendments. There are many other matters which I think can be usefully added to this Bill in the interests of economy. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider whether it is really necessary in time of war that the agenda of the different county councils should be registered by the Post Office before being sent to the members, and also whether he considers it necessary in the interests of economy that the Wild Birds Protection Act should be advertised in all the newspapers, and that the members who constitute the different Fishery Boards throughout the country should have their names advertised in two local papers. The right hon. Gentleman must be prepared for several Amendments in connection with economy. The only fault I have to find with the Bill is not in the direction in which it goes, but that it does not go far enough. It will have from those of us who are connected with Local Government our best support, and I hope my right hon. Friend will listen to our Amendments, which we believe will improve the Bill and which we shall certainly only put forward in the direction of economy.
I desire to support what my hon. Friend has said both in regard to thanking the Government for introducing this Bill and in informing the Government that those who speak for local authorities will support it throughout. It admits of strengthening and of widening and I hope the Government will be prepared to welcome efforts in this direction. With regard to the first three Clauses, it is indeed high time there was some fresh legislation to deal with this question of allowances to employés who are on active service. We are placed in the greatest difficulty between our anxiety to do well by those who are serving their country and particularly by those who went of their own free will at the earliest moment, when there was such an urgent call for men. It may happen that in some such cases local authorities have been too liberal. On the other hand, we have our duty to the ratepayers and we welcome a Bill which tends to emphasise the fact that the object to be aimed at is that there should be no real loss to the men who go to serve the country, but, on the other hand, that they should not make a pecuniary gain out of it. In certain cases that is an extremely difficult ideal to be carried out with absolute precision. On the other point I should like to suggest that the Government might go so far as to support a Clause, which some of us are quite prepared to introduce, that all notices which at present are required to be published by local authorities should be dispensed with with the sanction of the Government Department concerned. There are cases such as those mentioned by the hon. Member who has just spoken (Mr. Turton). There are other cases which call for attention. There are all sorts of cases, some in one Government Department and some in another, and surely the principle in war time ought to be that any one of these can be dispensed with if the Government Department responsible thinks it is safe to do it during that period. I urge that point upon the Government, and I thank them cordially for bringing in this Bill.
We are in general agreement that this Bill is one that it was desirable to introduce. One or two points have been mentioned with which I desire to deal. The first point was raised by the hon. Member for South Paddington (Mr. Harris). He went so far as to suggest what would amount to severe limitation of the powers of local authorities. I doubt whether that is altogether desirable. It proceeds from the assumption that the members of local authorities are not as keen as members of this House to effect economy. I gather that there is general agreement in the House that economies over which the House can exercise any authority shall be made. I gathered also from what the hon. Member said that he assumed that all the boroughs which have increased their rates were expending their resources in undesirable directions. I want to point out that if the expenditure of local authorities is severely restricted it may very well mean an accumulation of requirements later which can only be undertaken at ruinous expense. For the moment it may be an easier proposition for the local authorities to undertake duties which are obviously required rather than postpone them to days when I imagine finance will be even tighter than it is now. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not unduly restrict the activities of local authorities, but leave them the powers which they have enjoyed, and which, in the main, they have exercised with judgment and also with credit to their local activities.
Another point was made with respect to the reduction of the volume of statistics. For the period of the War that seems to me a workable thing, but I would point out that one of the great triumphs of public life in this country is the exactness and completeness of the statistics provided, showing what has been done in our local and national affairs, and providing material which give to those who can read statistics intelligently information on which reforms are based. To use the period of war for sacrificing them permanently would in my view do an ill turn to the social welfare of this country. If these statistics are temporarily sacrificed I hope that the movement will not gather weight for unduly restricting the amount of output of these statistics. I agree that for the moment the local authorities and the Government are so hard put to it that they cannot be expected to provide these voluminous returns, but I trust there will be careful discrimination shown as to which of the statistics should be sacrificed and which retained. As regards the payment made by local authorities to their servants and officials who have volunteered, I would have hon. Members remember that the promises made to those men who volunteered at a time of difficulty represent to them scraps of paper. The easy conscience shown in the suggestion made here that these scraps of paper should be torn up so far as we are concerned, while we fight for their retention elsewhere, seems to me a thing of which we have no right to be proud. If these men went, sacrificing a great deal, in the early days when men were most urgently needed, it ill becomes this House to suggest that promises made to the men, on the strength of which they went, should now be lightly set aside because certain persons find it difficult to keep the promises made to the men. I think that suggestion has been made in the House, but, if not, I do not press the point. For example, the hon. Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Leif Jones) suggested that a certain schoolmaster should have the amount which had been promised to him reduced. If he did not suggest that, there was no point in the statement he made.
He was originally promised that he should not suffer pecuniarily by joining, but the result of his joining is that he is £80 a year in pocket. Unless other people are put in the same position, that does not seem to me quite reasonable.
There may be something in that. This instance is quite an exceptional case, as I happen to know. I have knowledge of the regulations in force in various areas, and the hon. Member may take it from me that the payment of this excess of £80 beyond the amount which the man normally received is quite an exceptional proceeding. I welcome the suggestion made by the right hon. Gentleman who so clearly expounded the Bill that the promises made to men should be redeemed, and that if the local authorities desire slightly to extend the Civil Service scale they may do so, subject to the approval of the Local Government Board. Generally speaking, on that particular section of the Bill, I desire to express myself in hearty accord with the suggestions which the right hon. Gentleman has embodied in the measure. Taking the Bill as a whole, I think perhaps, with some slight amendment, it may be regarded as a useful emergency measure.
I did not understand the hon. Member for Rushcliffe to make any suggestion that any bargain which had been entered into should be cancelled. I should be very loth to make any such suggestion. I have always stood up in this House for the sacredness and maintenance of contracts, and whether a contract is good or bad to one of the parties, as it always must be, does not influence my mind in the matter. What I understood the hon. Member for Rushcliffe to say was that where an undertaking was given that a certain person should not suffer pecuniary loss the result has been that that certain person has had a pecuniary gain which, of course, is another matter which was not intended. I think one hon. Gentleman said it is very easy to be generous at other people's expense, but it is not right to be generous at the expense of the ratepayers. By all means see that every bargain and undertaking is carried out, but do not, because a mistake has arisen, and that mistake entails a burden upon the ratepayers, say, "The ratepayer is a person who is not very well represented, and therefore he must suffer in that direction." I do not quite understand Clause 4 of Part II. As I read it, that Clause seems to provide that where a person is employed as a temporary substitute, and that peron is in receipt of a pension, he shall also receive a salary. I do not know whether I have understood the Clause, but if that is the effect I do not think it is right. If a person is in receipt of a pension from a particular authority, and if that authority comes forward and says, "Would you like to undertake some temporary work and we will give you the full salary which was paid to the person for whom you are substituted?" I do not think the temporary substitute ought to receive, in addition to that salary, the superannuation allowance. That is identical with the case of the payment of Members of Parliament who are serving in the Forces, which I believe the Government intends to alter. If my interpretation of the Clause is correct, I do not think it should pass.
I must confess that I do not understand Clause 8 very well. My right hon. Friend (Mr. Hayes Fisher) said that it is a Clause in the interests of economy. So far as I can make out—I may be wrong—Clause 8 stereotypes a certain payment which was made from the year 1914. It is quite possible that at the present moment the payment for expenditure is less, and if the expenditure is less and the amount is stereotyped by this Clause, that amount will be obtained when it is not necessary that such an amount should be obtained. I may be wrong in my interpretation of the Clause, but that is what I think it means. I do not quite understand Clause 10, which was alluded to by my hon. Friend (Mr. Harris). I do not quite know why the county council should have the payments there mentioned. In regard to Clause 12, I do not see where the economy is in that. It says that the signature of the secretary or assistant-secretary shall be regarded as being as valid in all respects and shall have the same effect as if it had been given by an Order of the Board or by an instrument under the seal of the Board. I think it is rather a dangerous precedent that the secretary or assistant-secretary should in this way have the power of the Board. It may save the Board trouble, but I think it is a dangerous precedent. I may be wrong, but I do not see where the economy comes in, and I certainly think that it is a bad step to give a subordinate official such powers. My right hon. Friend said there was no Sub-section (2) to Clause 12; there is, and it provides that this section shall not apply to Scotland or Ireland. Why, if it is good for England, is it bad for Scotland or Ireland? I am inclined to think that Sub-Section (2) is right and that the Clause should not apply to Scotland and Ireland, and that in the same way it should not apply to England. Sub-Section (2) of Clause 13 reads as follows: It seems to me that it is rather a bad step to remove the control from the Local Government Board, because there are some Boards of Guardians who are very extravagant; nearly as extravagant as some Members of Parliament. This Sub-Section takes away a power which in my opinion it is really necessary for the protection of the ratepayers should be vested in the control of my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board. I cannot see that this is going to make any great saving in expenditure. I am all in favour of the diminution of forms. I think all Government Departments are much too fond of forms, and I am glad that some of these forms are going to be done away with. Many of them are undoubtedly unnecessary. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hayes Fisher) said that they were not absolutely necessary. If they are not absolutely necessary, why not do away with them altogether, so that when the War comes to an end you can institute a campaign of economy which may have a good result? I am glad that my right hon. Friend says he will accept Amendments in Committee. I think that probably one or two Amendments will be required and I hope we shall be met in regard to them.
5.0 P.M.
I think that the support which has been given to the Bill will be welcomed, at any rate for Part II. of the Bill, outside the House. Part II. of the Bill makes attempts to secure economy at this special time. Most of us who take part in this debate are, I expect, connected with local authorities, and we shall welcome the earlier clauses of Part I. of the Bill which regularises what I think most local authorities have done in regard to the remuneration of their servants who have joined the Colours. There is no good our closing our eyes to the fact that a large number of people amongst the general public will not approve as fully of Part I. as they will of Part II. It is a necessary provision to enable that section of the population who happen to be Civil servants or servants of local authorities to go to the War without suffering pecuniarily by so doing. That is an object of which most people will approve. But in carrying it out, as is the case with a great many other things which we have had to do in the emergency of the War, we are certainly taking a step which is not logical. It means that the services which these gentlemen are rendering to the State in the War as soldiers are in fact being paid for in the main by the local ratepayers. If the servant of a local authority is earning £400 a year, and is released in order that he may go to the front, when he goes he ceases to render any service to the local authority, and the local authority continues to pay him £400 a year, less 1s. a day. I am right in saying that in that case at any rate the services which he is rendering to the country as a whole are in fact being paid for in the main by the local ratepayer. That cannot be justified on logical grounds. At any rate, I call the attention of the Local Government Board to that point.
I hope, before the Committee stage is reached, that the Local Government Board will satisfy themselves that Insurance Committees come within the scope of the Bill. The Local Government Board—as I read the Bill—have power to include within its provisions bodies other than those which are specially named. I would ask the Local Government Board to do one other thing—to exercise, if possible, some control over the men who are leaving the service of local authorities for the Colours, from this point of view. I will give a case which I know best, that of the insurance committee of which I happen to be a member. Like most insurance committees, which are new bodies, its staff consists in the main of men of military age. Very few insurance committees have the members of their staff over military age. They were new bodies, and young men as a rule were taken into their service. The committee which I represent has encouraged every man who was capable of fighting to go to the front, with the result that—I think I am safe in saying—half of the salaries of the insurance committee to-day are being paid for services which are not rendered to the committee at all. We do not complain of that, but what we do complain of is that, having secured all the men who are capable of fighting, you should now come and take the men who have several times been declared to be physically unfit for fighting, and take them into the Army as clerks in the Army, and then expect that they will be paid under the Resolutions which we have passed if they join the Colours. We have made no restrictions that they must go into the trenches. If they join the Colours, they may be in some office doing clerical work, because they are not fit to do any other work. It is grossly unfair to ask the insurance committee to make up the War Office salary of a man who is acting as a clerk while its staff is being depleted, and I hope that in the interests of economy the Local Government Board will take care that men who are declared to be unfit for actually taking part in the fighting will not be taken from the service of the local authorities to be used for merely sedentary occupations.
The House will, of course, realise that in passing this Bill we strengthen enormously the claims which will be made, of which I suppose we shall hear something from the President of the Local Government Board, that the country should make some compensation to men who are not under this Bill. I will instance a case to show the strength of some of their claims. The father-in-law of a surveyor in private practice came to me the other day and pointed out that this man volunteered some months ago to go to the front. He gave up his practice and had absolutely no further income, and gave up his house, and his wife went to her father to live. The house is absolutely unoccupied, save that the furniture is still there. That man cannot even get from the local authorities exemption of his rates. He pays £20 a year in rates. Then what does he say? Those rates go partly to pay the full salary of another surveyor, who happens to be the borough surveyor, who is fighting at the front. That is the kind of case which this Bill will strengthen. It is a case which it is almost impossible to answer. Here is a man who has lost all his income. He is a surveyor, just as the other man is. He can say, "We are both in the same trenches, and both taking the same risks. Yet because that man is the servant of a public body he has not lost any of his income, and, though I have lost my income, the rates have got to be paid on the house which I have had to give up in order partly to pay the salary of this other surveyor, who is fighting, like me, in the trenches." It is certainly an anomalous position, and I hope that when the Government come to deal with the claims of men who are not Civil servants, or servants of public authorities, they will realise how these claims have been strengthened by this Bill.
The right hon. Gentleman did not explain the meaning of Clause 11. I am not concerned to add to the diatribes against legislation by reference, but here are three Acts mentioned in six lines, and if the right hon. Gentleman will say what is the meaning I should be grateful. For the rest I wish to associate myself with what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Paddington (Mr. Henry Harris). My hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland (Mr. Goldstone) referred to the question whether in the districts around London the members of the local bodies are as keen as they ought to be in effecting economies. Whether or not they are as keen as Members of this House—whatever their standard is—it does not become me to say. I have brought before the President of the Local Government Board several concrete cases of extravagance around London. In his courteous answers he has pointed out that contracts have been made and cannot be voided, but I think that in war time, when worse things are happening, there should be some means of voiding contracts which entail needless expenditure. It ought to be impossible for a local body to duplicate a sidewalk for the convenience of one household. Such expenditure indicates a spirit which is not that of rigid economy, which should now prevail. In reference to the interference, which my right hon. Friend regrets as so disastrous to local bodies, I wish that it was exercised, provided that it was exercised only on behalf of rigid economy, and not, as must be the case so long as the Local Government Board represents the House of Commons, in the interests of expenditure. My right hon. Friend (Mr. Hayes Fisher) shakes his head, but I think that that must be the case with respect to a body which may not be in favour of expenditure but is under the necessity of carrying out the duties imposed upon it by Parliament.
Those who are responsible for this Bill must be pleased at the welcome which it has received in all parts of the House. I have described it as an omnibus Bill, and I think that the only real criticism was directed to the fact that the omnibus does not contain enough passengers, and when the omnibus enters Committee we may expect that other passengers will desire to be admitted. My hon. Friend the Member for the Middleton Division of Lancashire (Sir R. Adkins) suggested that there should be a general edict, that all notices which are expensive to local authorities should be dispensed with during the War. Those notices concern not only the Local Government Board but the Board of Trade, the Home Office, and other Departments. All I can say on that point is that I will consult those who are responsible for exacting these notices and causing them to be an expense to the local authorities, and I will consider, when we get into the Committee stage of the Bill, whether it is possible to enlarge the Bill in that direction. Other suggestions have been made as to expenses under the Bill. One came from an hon. Friend the Member for the Thirsk Division (Mr. Turton). All I can say now is that I will be glad to consider in the most considerate spirit any Amendment that may be put down with a view to carrying out suggestions made for enlarging the scope of the Bill as regards economy by still further diminishing the number of returns and accounts and statistical reports which have to be prepared now by local authorities.
Mr. right hon. Friend the Member for the City (Sir F. Banbury) rather doubted whether some portions of this Bill really do effect economy. He pointed to Clause 4 and said that when a retired officer is brought back and asked to perform certain duties, though he is enjoying a returning allowance, he is going to be paid something as well as his returning allowance. I think that that will happen in very few cases, but I will tell the hon. Gentleman what we have in our mind. Just now it is very difficult to get well-qualified officers to take the place of those who have been released in order to go to the Colours, and it is possible in some cases that the pension which the temporary officer enjoys is actually more than the pay of the position which he is asked to occupy, so that he would actually be a loser by exchanging one for the other, and, at all events, they might be so equally balanced that a man of, say, sixty years of age might naturally say, if there is no inducement in the pay, "I hardly think that I will undertake these onerous duties." That is why that Clause was put in, and I think that it is likely to act beneficially. My right hon. Friend went to Clause 8 and asked how it would favour economy because there are specified the gross amount of expenditure at certain dates, the 31st March and the 30th September, 1914. Looking over many years it is found that this expenditure averages very nearly the same. Here and there this system possibly would be in favour of the local authorities. Let my hon. Friend set off against it the very large saving in expenditure through the very simple forms of accounts compared with the almost ex- cruciating and agonising forms of accounts which hitherto have been associated with this particular method. Then he referred to Clause 10 of the Bill. We can argue these cases in Committee, but I think that I shall be able to persuade my right hon. Friend that that Clause is desirable.
In reference to Clause 12, my right hon. Friend doubted whether it was not a little bit dangerous to substitute a letter merely signed by an assisant secretary for an Order under seal. I may tell ray right hon. Friend that there are more than 500 of these Orders under seal sent out by the Local Government Board in the course of a year. They require a great deal of preparation, and they are printed on very expensive paper, a good deal of time beings taken in getting them up and examining them. My right hon. Friend has come to the conclusion that, certainly for the period of the War, when we may do many things that we would not do otherwise, it would be quite safe to substitute a cheaper form of procedure than this more expensive form. My right hon. Friend remarked that if this was good for England, why is it not good for Scotland and Ireland? I am not acquainted with Scotland and not very well acquainted with Ireland in regard to these matters, but those countries differ from ours to a very great extent, and we think there would not be much saving in a case like this. I am, therefore, not prepared to debate the question in regard to Ireland, without the Irish authority being here. In connection with Clause 13, my right hon. Friend doubted whether Sub-section (2) of that Clause was a wise one—that the board of guardians should not be required to report to the Local Government Board. I will look into that and see whether my right hon. Friend is right and that it is essential we should have that requirement. I quite agree that we should not dispense with any proper safeguards in matters connected with expenditure.
The hon. Member for Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees) asked me a question with regard to Clause 11, and called attention to the example of legislation by reference. May I shortly explain the matter to the House? The English procedure as regards a locomotive on the highways is to have two men in attendance upon a locomotive on a highway, either as drivers or attendants, and then it compels a third man to be in attendance to give assistance if there are any difficulties or troubles with horse vehicles. Scotland cannot be accused of want of caution, and in that country they are content with two instead of three attendants on a locomotive. They have done away with one of the drivers, and one of the other two can give assistance should there be any trouble with a horse vehicle. We have had several representations from local authorities in regard to the assimilation of the practice of England to that of Scotland, where they have two instead of three attendants. Now that labour is scarce, and now that horses and drivers are far more familiar with motor traffic, we are in a position to do away with a certain amount of labour by taking steps similar to those which have been adopted in Scotland. One other general remark. I quite agree that the Local Government Board is doing everything in its power to enforce economy on the local authorities. My right hon. Friend has never ceased to endeavour to enforce economy on the local authorities, and, on the whole, there is every reason to be satisfied with the response they have made. We believe that in this matter we are setting an example in the matter of economy by saving the cost of making many returns, and of giving us many statistics which are not absolutely necessary in time of war, thus helping local authorities to effect economies which all desire to see in our system of local government.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.
War Risks (Insurance by Trustees) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
I think I can explain this Bill in a very few sentences. The object of it is to enable trustees to insure against war risks, which means, of course, damage by aircraft, bombardment, or by other operations of war. There is already power under Statute for trustees to insure up to three-fourths of the value of the property, but there is no similar statutory power to insure against war risks. Some trustees have taken the precaution to insure, but we think it right to make it quite plain that all trustees shall have the right to insure against war risks.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.
Attested Married Men— Government Proposals
Statement by Mr. Long
I beg to move, "That this House do now adjourn."
I rise to discharge to the House the promise I made yesterday on behalf of the Government, that I would make a statement, a full statement, to-day, in answer to a request made to me by my Noble Friend, Lord Derby. Lord Derby's request is not, I think, an unreasonable one, not only because we really are in a position now to tell the House and the country all we have been doing in order to secure that the largest possible number of single men should be made available for military service, but also because all those who have followed the discussion in the public Press during the last few weeks must, I think, feel that Lord Derby has been made the victim of some very unfair and almost cruel attacks. Lord Derby is a man whom you have only to know, however slightly, to be quite satisfied that whatever mistakes he may make—and all human beings are liable to make mistakes—he would never do anything inconsistent with the highest rules of honour. Lord Derby has felt, and felt acutely, the charge brought in many quarters that he has been guilty of breaking the pledge and promise that he made when he undertook what we know as the "Derby Scheme." Really the greater part of this attack on Lord Derby has been made upon him, not because there was any foundation for this charge, but because he has been unwilling to allow himself to be used as a tool to attack the Government which he has done his best to serve.
Lord Derby was appointed to the position of Chief Recruiting Officer for the Government by the Prime Minister. He has enjoyed the fullest possible confidence of the Government during the time that he has held this office. I think he would be the first to say, as think I shall be able to show to the House, that he has received the ungrudging support of the Government, and I venture to say that he is entitled now to the gratitude of all of us for the very great task which he has been instrumental in accomplishing. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon), in a recent debate in this House, threw ridicule upon Lord Derby's arithmetic. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Walthamstow may without question enjoy all the honour which comes to him as a great authority on arithmetic, but Lord Derby will unquestionably, not only to-day, but in the verdict that history will pronounce on what men are doing to-day, enjoy the reputation of having done his best in times of great difficulty to serve his country when she badly needed his services. Lord Derby spoke the other day in another place, and made certain statements and offered certain suggestions. He invited his critics to submit his suggestions or any others they might have to make. So far as I know that invitation has not been accepted, and no other suggestions have been made than those which he put forward in the House of Lords. He has made some proposals for changes which he thinks will assist in the recruitment of the men he wants. I am very glad to be able to tell the House that with regard to nearly all these suggestions we have already been able to meet Lord Derby's wishes. Some two or three of them have only been made very recently, and they are now under consideration by the Government.
May I come now to a more detailed description of what it is the Government have done? The House may perhaps remember that I told them on a previous occasion that early in the proceedings a Committee was appointed to arrange for a revision of the lists of reserved occupations, and for an examination into the men employed in different factories and works. This Committee did its best, but it was not as successful as we could desire. Lord Derby found that they failed to secure the release of many men whom he thought ought to be released, and he communicated his views to the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister appointed a Conference, which is composed of the Secretary of State for Home Affairs, the Secretary of State for War, the Admiralty, if they desired to be represented, and the Board of Trade and the Board of Agriculture, and the Prime Minister did me the honour to ask me to act as chairman. We have met and examined carefully not only the suggestions made to us, but we have examined also the proposals made by the Committee. We have been able to compose differences, we have been able to secure more prompt and effective action, and we have the authority of the Cabinet not only to approve the recommendations of this Committee, but to see that they are carried out without delay. I have to say that I believe, and I think I have shown, that the results have been satisfactory. The Committee is in continuous session. It does not go through the lists to examine and alter them and then conclude its labours. It continues to sit, and these revisions are made from time to time, as necessity seems to arise. So that whatever may be the release of men to-day or what they may have been a fortnight ago, it does not follow and it must not be supposed that the operations of the Committee end there.
On the contrary, we shall continue to keep on our revision, and I venture to repeat to the House what I said the other day, only perhaps more fully. I was asked to consider a suggestion for a still further release of men from employment. I pointed out to the House what is undoubtedly true, that if you are going to do this work effectively, and if you are going, as you must, to keep in mind the needs of the country for other purposes than that of fighting, you can only do it as you gain experience and knowledge. In the early days there were many people in this country who although they were most anxious to see a large number of men released to serve with the Colours, firmly believed that these men could only be taken by the complete sacrifice of many of our most important national industries. It was quite evident that to come to a decision which would release a large number of men who were engaged in munitions work would not be to aid the cause of the War, and that it would do no good in bringing the War to a successful conclusion to send soldiers to the front unless you could give them the munitions, the arms, and the guns, without which their presence there would be practically and virtually useless. Therefore, at that time it was thought to be impossible to release many of these men from, for instance, munitions. I shall be able to show the House that we have learned by our experience, that we have found that there are other classes of labour that can be brought in, and experience has taught us what experience alone could teach us, that women are able to do work that in the early days nobody in or out of the House thought it would be possible for them physically to undertake. That is a reason which, I think, justifies the action which the Government have taken, and I respectfully urge that those who condemn us on the score of delay ought very carefully to consider what I have tried to tell the House, namely, that steps can safely and successfully be taken to-day which would have been really impossible three or four months ago.
The changes that the Government have made have been under several heads. If the House will allow me, I will take them seriatim. I will deal first with the action taken by the Committee and the Conference in regard to the reserved occupations. The House knows that in the early stage of the War it was necessary to reserve a large number of occupations, and to retain the men in them, in order that our munitions, our food supply, clothing for our soldiers, in fact, the necessary requirements of the Army and the country should be met, and also, if possible, to maintain our export trade—so essential if we are to pay our way and meet the heavy charges consequent on the conduct of a great war of this kind. The lists of reserved occupations have been exhaustively revised by this Committee, and their action has been approved by the Conference and put into force.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give us the date when that was done?
It has been going on for about three or four months. I suppose it is about three months since we began it. It is about three months since the Conference began. I am proposing, if the House will allow me, not to trust to my own memory in telling them exactly what has happened, but to read them the reports I have received, made up to the last possible moment, from each of these Departments. Lists of reserved occupations were issued on the recommendation of the Reserved Occupations Committee. The purpose of these lists was to prevent the collapse of industry by retaining a sufficiency of what are called pivotal men, and to preserve a sufficiency of exports to pay for imports. These lists have now been carefully gone through and substantially reduced. Some trades have been entirely removed from the list. This has been done reluctantly but cautiously, and in view of the urgent need of more men for the Army. In other trades certain occupations are no longer exempted, but the most important reduction in the number of men reserved has been obtained by removing the reservation in the case of single men below certain ages. The age limits recommended vary, but some age limit has been proposed for single men in the great majority of the occupations which have been allowed to remain on the list. In some cases the age limit is twenty-five, in others thirty, and in yet others all single men have been released as a result of the work of the Committee and of the Conference. There are also one or two industries in which the list of reserved occupations has been entirely reconstructed. It has also been decided, and this is a very important change, that men who have moved into a reserved occupation since August 15 last, the date of the Registration Act, should not be regarded as belonging to a reserved occupation. The importance of this change is greater than it may perhaps seem at first sight, because of the burden of the proof of indispensability now rests upon these men and their employers.
In the case of agricultural occupations exemptions have also been removed as regards single men up to a certain age, which is usually twenty-five, but in some cases thirty, and it has further been decided that the claim for a certificate of exemption shall not be entertained when made by or in respect of an unmarried man on the plea that he is engaged in a certified occupation, unless he has held his post, or one of a similar character, with another employer, previous to the same date, August 15, 1915. I do not think it is too rosy an estimate to say that in the belief of those who have been responsible for this, and who are following these industries and their condition day by day, that the result of this change in the list of reserved occupations will be to release a very large number of men who have not hitherto been available for service. [HON. MEMBERS: "How many?"] I could not possibly tell you. I am not really trifling with the House or trying to evade an answer. It is impossible. All we know is that there is a multiutde of those trades, and the lists are very large. We do not know exactly the number employed in each, but we believe that these men can be released without serious risk to the industry, and that as they are gathered from this or that industry it will be found there is a very large number of them. To express that number in actual figures now, though it may be possible later, would be quite impossible.
The House is aware that there has been a great deal of apprehension as to the condition of the munitions factories, and we have been told that in these munitions factories there are a great many young fellows who ought not to be there, and have taken refuge there to escape service. The Minister of Munitions was as anxious as any man could be that these facts should be examined, that there should be the fullest possible investigation, and that if it were shown to be true that there were men in munition factories who ought to be released for service, their release should be secured. What we did was to appoint inspectors drawn from two or three different Departments and charge them with the duty of investigating the munition factories. They have been engaged on this work, and I propose, if the House will allow me, to tell them exactly in the form of a Report what they have done. The Ministry of Munitions have taken action in two directions. On the one hand they set to work through their inspectors to revise the lists of men entitled to hold badges, and they have decided to withdraw exemptions from men who are not engaged on important war work, or whose places could be taken by women or other labour ineligible for the Army. The inspectors are visiting the works, they are noting all men they think should be replaced and reporting their names to the Ministry of Munitions, so that exemption, so far as the needs of munition works are concerned, may be withdrawn at once or a fortnight ahead, or a month ahead, according as arrangements for the necessary replacement can be made. But it will be definitely and permanently withdrawn and not merely renewed simply because a man has obtained work elsewhere before his time comes to join the Colours.
The inspectors of the Admiralty and the War Office are investigating on the same lines those establishments to which badges have been granted in connection with Admiralty and War Office contracts, and men are already being released as a direct result of this inspection, and it is hoped that in the course of the next month large numbers will be made available for mili- tary service by this means. The Ministry of Munitions have also taken steps immediately to cut out of the lists of certified munitions occupations those from which exemption can be immediately withdrawn, and this revised list will be published immediately. They have further decided, as from 1st May next, to abolish the whole list of munitions occupations. It will, no doubt, be necessary, in view of this radical proposal, for the Reserved Occupations Committee to include in their general list a few of the occupations which have hitherto been exempted by the Ministry of Munitions. But the decision means that on 1st May large numbers of occupations will disappear altogether from the certified list, and after that date no man will be exempted from military service on the plea that his occupation is important for munitions work unless he can show that he is entitled to wear a war service badge. If these two proposals are looked at together it will be seen, I think, that the Ministry of Munitions has embarked upon a very drastic revision of their employés.
Then it is said that there are a great many men in the coal mines who ought not to be there. There, again, for a very considerable time the most complete overhauling has been going on through the colliery inspectors. The Government decided that the cases of single men of military age who had gone into reserved occupations since 15th August should be specially reviewed. The following procedure will be followed in the coal mines with regard to every case. The Home Office has asked the owner of each coal mine to furnish to the Colliery Recruiting Courts, on a form provided for the purpose, a list of all men who have been taken into employment since 15th August, 1915. The Court will forward the duplicate copies of the lists to the military representative as they are received. If the military representative is of opinion that the case of any mine—this a drastic alteration—ought to be investigated by the Court, with a view to seeing whether any such man can be released from the mine for military service, he will in the first instance confer with the Colliery Court and explain the grounds on which he thinks the man can be spared from the mine. If the Court agree that there is a primâ facie case for investigation they will fix a date of hearing and the procedure laid down will be adopted. If the Court are satisfied, after hearing the parties, that any of the men can be released without seriously affecting the output of coal from that particular colliery, the Court shall withdraw the certificates of exemption of such men, but the Court will not fail to bear in mind what I am sure the House will agree with, namely, that the maintenance of the national output of coal is a matter quite as important as the maintenance of the supply of men for the Army in the field. A record of the decision of the Court in the case of each man shall be entered on the list furnished by the owner. That deals with the general reserved occupations, munition works, and mines. I want to say with regard to agriculture that we have already made a very considerable alteration, and I think that the system now adopted, namely, that you must have regard to the amount of labour required for the farming industry, and not to the particular man, will in its turn release a considerable number of these men who have been or are engaged in agriculture.
As to substitution, what steps have been taken to substitute other kinds of labour? For some time there has been in operation concerted action by the Home Office, the Board of Trade, and the Board of Agriculture. A central committee is sitting regularly, and local committees are set up in a large number of towns. An appeal has been issued both by the Home Secretary and by the President of the Board of Trade, and circulated to employers. All the factory inspectors are engaged in what is called "combing" the factories and pressing the employment of women. Conferences are being regularly held between employers and operatives in various trades. The Board of Agriculture are dealing especially with the task of finding women for agriculture. Fourteen thousand have already been found places with farmers, and in the county of Norfolk 4,000 women have registered their names as willing to work on the land. As substitutes for men no less than 275,000 women have been found and put to work that men were doing, exclusively of agriculture, clerical work, commercial work, and transport work. That shows not only that we have vigorously overhauled the industries and drastically altered the conditions under which particular classes of labour were reserved, but that in addition we have not allowed the grass to grow under our feet in endeavouring to find substitutes, whether they be men ineligible for service or women.
We have also been told—Lord Derby dwelt with great insistence upon this—that the Register—which he told us had been extremely useful to him; in fact, he told us that it would have been difficult, if not impossible, to work the Derby scheme without it—is now out of date. That is to say, it has been in existence for some months and ought to be revised. We have taken steps to revise it. The revision will be carried out immediately. We propose also to issue an Order—which we have power to do—for the compulsory production of the certificate of registration. This is found to be essential in many parts of the country, and we are assured by those who are engaged in recruiting that it will help them immensely in ascertaining who are the men who ought to be with the Colours under the Military Service Act. We propose also to issue an Order that employers must themselves see that their employés are properly registered. There is a Section in the Act which enables this to be done, and imposes penalties if the employers fail to do it. We propose under the powers conferred upon us to issue that Order without delay.
Then we have been told by married men that it is not fair to call them up so long as there are so many young men of military age who ought to be taking their places. I am bound to say that I cannot share that view of the married men who attested under Lord Derby's scheme. I cannot share it for this reason: First of all, let the House remember that these men came forward—all honour to them for their patriotic and splendid self-sacrifice—and attested, undertaking if necessary to fight for their country. Putting aside for the moment one or two considerations to which I will refer presently, they have been honoured—and deservedly honoured—throughout the land for what they did. But surely it is not fair that they should receive, as they are entitled to receive, the honour of their fellow countrymen for this self-sacrificing act on their part if we are to be told now that they attested because they believed they would not be called upon to serve. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] But one of the charges brought against our recruiting system is that our canvassers held out to married men hopes which could not be realised. I am not dealing with the question of bringing up the single men. That stands by itself. All I say is that I cannot share the view that the married men were not fairly treated by Lord Derby and the great scheme for which he is responsible. My right hon. and learned Friend knows that in addition to that complaint there is another—that the married man was told that he could not go before the tribunal unless he first of all attested, and that this constitutes a breach of faith. Why? I am utterly unable to share that view. How on earth could these men, if they were to have an opportunity of claiming release, go before the tribunal unless they first of all attested and therefore were liable to be called up for service? If they wished for release, postponement, or any of the privileges which could be granted, surely it was essential that Lord Derby should ask that before they came before the tribunal they should be attested. Just think how it would work if you told every man to go before the tribunal, whether attested or not. Good fellows would have gone and rendered their service, as they are doing now. But what about the men who wanted to escape? Of course they would have gone before the tribunal without being attested, and as soon as they found that their request was not granted you would have heard no more about them. I cannot see that any charge lies against Lord Derby that, as part of his scheme, he asked that men should be attested before appealing to the tribunals.
That is in the circular.
The point is that a man who attested would have some advantage over the man who did not attest. But now the man who did not attest is not called up at all.
I am amazed to hear my right hon. and learned Friend, who is a master of concise and accurate statement, make that as a charge against either the Government or Lord Derby's scheme. He says that these men attested because they were led to understand that they would not be called upon to serve alone. That is what it comes to.
No.
Then I misunderstood the right hon. Gentleman.
The point is this. Lord Derby held out to the married men who attested that they would have some advantage over the men who did not attest.
Give his words.
Assume that that is right for the moment. If it is correct, it was clearly misleading to the married men who attested, because, instead of having an advantage over the men who did not attest, they are called to the Colours, while the other men are not called to the Colours at all.
Really my right hon. and learned Friend is arguing a very thin case. Are we to assume that all these men knew nothing, that they were absolutely void of intelligence and common-sense, that they were absolute dupes of this extraordinary promise that they should have some advantage? What advantage? What advantage could Lord Derby promise them? He invited them to come forward and give their services to the country. They came forward, and every man has gladly paid them the honour which is their due for the service they undertook to render. To say that there was held out to them that they would obtain some advantage by attesting other than the right to go before the tribunal is, I think, to misunderstand altogether what Lord Derby said, and, so far as I know, to misunderstand what was said even by those who canvassed on behalf of Lord Derby. I know that some of the married men were told by canvassers that if they attested they would not be wanted for a very long time. I have seen men who told me that they know canvassers who went and asked married men to attest, telling them that in all probability they would not be wanted at all.
Lord Derby said that.
No. Will the right hon. Gentleman quote his words?
"Or perhaps would not be wanted at all." I think those were his words.
"Perhaps would not be wanted at all"! Surely, if in the circumstances when Lord Derby's scheme was started, with the War in its present condition, a man says, "It is possible that you will not be wanted," does my right hon. Friend ask us to regard that as a pledge or a promise which led these men to believe that they could attest with safety, because they would never be called upon? I am convinced that the case has only to be stated. I desire to conceal nothing; I do not desire to take advantage of any quibble, or of any special presentment of the case. I deal with it, I hope, quite frankly and honestly as an ordinary Englishman considering the case of another Englishman. I do not believe you are doing the married men a good service in asking us to regard them as victims of some injustice on grounds such as those advanced by my right hon. Friend opposite.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the Midland Counties circulars were sent out to the married men, saying that if they did not attest there would be no appeal whatever afterwards? These circulars were sent out all through the County of Nottinghamshire.
Surely my hon. Friend, in his enthusiasm for men who have suffered, is failing to look at the facts in their true light and proportion. These men were told that unless they attested they could not appeal. How could they appeal if they were not attested? What would there be to appeal about?
Because they thought compulsion was coming.
6.0 P.M.
Really, my hon. Friend is a vigorous and brilliant fighter in this House, but he has not a monopoly of intelligence. It is absurd to tell us that these men were told that compulsion was coming, that they were told all sorts of things and swallowed them all. We all know what happens if you start men canvassing. We have seen it at General Elections. A party goes to the country on a definite policy. Do the canvassers ever repeat that policy as the leaders state it? The great object of canvassers in the country is to urge upon those concerned to do their best. Of course there will be discrepancies. I have no doubt in these cases there were instances of discrepancies. But does anybody deny—and I do ask the House this in all earnestness—that when Lord Derby made his appeal it was not perfectly well known to the great mass of the men of the country that if they attested they would be called upon to serve when their time came? Because that time may, owing to the exigencies of war, have been hurried, by two or three weeks or more, does anybody desire seriously to argue here that these men were deceived when they were asked to come forward and give their services to the country? I repeat what I have said before: You are doing a disservice to the cause of the married men by putting their case on those grounds. There is no justi- fication for the charge that is made; but there is, and has been all along, justification for the demand that the Government should do what they have already done, namely, pass the Military Service Act, which compels men of a certain age, bachelors, to come to the Colours—that they should in addition do all they can to find these men, wherever they are, and bring them to the Colours. The Act is passed. I think I can honestly claim that I have shown to fair-minded critics that the Government have done the best they can, and are doing it, to prune our industries, and to release the largest possible number of men who can safely be released for service with the Colours. In addition, we propose that the men who are in the first group, that is, eighteen and a half years, or perhaps rather more, shall be called up for training here at home, not, of course, to be sent for service abroad until they are nineteen. That means a considerable addition to the force here at home. It means the consequential release of at least an equal number of men. I think the House will agree that that is a wise thing to do at the present juncture—to train all available men for home defence, although they may not be called upon to go abroad until they attain the fixed age. Then, Sir, as to the difficulties and liabilities of the married men. We have been criticised for not dealing with these cases before.
Hear, hear!
I think that criticism is altogether uncalled for. I am not in the least afraid to meet it. To begin with, those who cheer my reference to that criticism will, I am quite sure, be prepared to get up in their places and tell the House what really was the extent of these difficulties.
Hear, hear!
The numbers of men, the amount of their obligations, and the debt consequently thrown upon the State; further, what action would be taken by the tribunal. Let me remind the House that when we passed the Military Service Act we gave powers to the tribunals to release men on the score of domestic and financial difficulties. We had no knowledge until quite lately what would be the action of the tribunals in regard to the exercise of this particular power. It might well have been that the tribunals would have taken the view that men with these heavy burdens ought not to be called upon to serve as soldiers. Had they taken that view this particular grievance would either not have arisen, or would only have arisen in a very modified form. So far as the Government are able to ascertain, the tribunals have not taken that view, at all events not to a very large extent. There is evidence of a different kind which weighs much more with the Government, and which certainly impressed me as the Minister who has been specially called upon to investigate and deal with these matters. It is this: that a very large number of men—I cannot say how many—who are faced with this possible financial loss have declined to appeal for release to the tribunal. They are quite aware of the fact that the Act gives them this right of appeal. But they have said, "We believe that our services are required; we are going to offer our services, to give them to our country, and we are not going to ask for release whatever the punishment may be to ourselves." The existence, it may be, of even only a small proportion of men who take this high, this splendid view of their duties is a much more potent force in convincing us that some action must be taken than any number of charges either of delay, or neglect, or anything of that kind; or the claim or suggestion that this difficulty has arisen suddenly, and for the first time. As a matter of fact, this particular question of the men with obligations has been in existence ever since the first call for recruits was made.
I will now tell the House what we propose to do. We propose that such sums as are necessary shall be given to the Statutory Pensions Committee to enable them to make grants to those already in the Army, or those who are now being called up, to meet hardships arising out of their liabilities. These grants are to be distributed according to rules drawn up by the Statutory Committee with the approval of the Treasury. It is suggested that the Courts Emergency (Powers) Act shall be amended so as to apply to contracts made since the War in the same way as it applies to various contracts made before the War. It is proposed that provision should be made authorising application to be made to the County Court judge for power in certain cases to break a lease. I will only say of these three proposals that the first is one which enables relief to be given where there is special and real hardship, to which, in the opinion of the Government and the country, these men ought not to be exposed. In regard to contracts this applies, I think, to a very limited number of cases, but I believe there is a very general opinion that it ought to be done.
made an observation inaudible in the Reporters' Gallery.
The second part, that of the Courts Emergency Act, will be amended to apply to contracts made since the War as it already applies to contracts made before the War. The third is the provision to which I have referred, that part breaking leases in certain cases. Here it is felt that in a great many cases the owner of a house is quite willing that the lease should be broken, and the arrangement is made in a great many cases; but in the case where a man refuses, and where it is clear that another tenant can be found immediately—it is the case, unfortunately, in pretty nearly every part of the country that the housing accommodation is far below the needs—it is felt there ought to be the right, at all events, to make an application which shall be heard and considered by the County Court judge.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether it will be possible to break a business lease?
I would rather not answer that offhand. That is a question upon which I should like to confer with the Law Officers of the Crown.
If it is the effect of the recruiting of the lessee, I cannot see what difference there is!
My right hon. and learned Friend knows I am not a lawyer, and I am a little chary in my old age of saying "Yes" or "No" to any suggestion, even if it comes from the most innocent quarters. There are some quarters in the House in regard to which I am specially careful, and therefore I should like to reserve my answer.
I only asked for information.
I was not referring to my right hon. and learned Friend; I was referring to the question put from behind me. I apologise to the House for the length of my remarks. I hope the House will forgive me if I just say this word in conclusion. I know a great many soldiers of all ranks, officers, non-commissioned officers, and men. I see and hear a great deal of them. I appreciate as much as anybody can the hardships of the married men—or the single men—who, having certain obligations, are called upon to join the Colours. I feel, as the Government feel—whose unworthy spokesman for the moment I am—that everything that can justly and fairly be done should be done to get the single men in all their numbers, and wherever they may be, and bring them to the Colours. Everything that can fairly and justly be done to meet the just claims of the men who are taken to the Colours, and who suffer any pecuniary difficulties, or even disaster, should be done. But I do venture to assure the House that we are doing all this in order that we may do our duty to those splendid fellows who have already given their lives on the field or are to-day offering their lives for their country. It is that they shall be adequately supported, that they shall have the strength without which they cannot successfully pursue this great War. These are the objects which we have at heart, and I assure the House that with many of those to whom I refer there is a very strong feeling that there is too much fuss—to use their own phrase—made about these so-called grievances—[An HON. MEMBER: "Quite right!"]—and not enough of what they have cheerfully borne, and the sacrifices that they have made, without question and even without consideration. All this has been done by them. They are not complaining. They are not asking that their case shall be considered. They are not asking that this or that burden should be taken from their shoulders. All they are asking is that they shall be supported by men willing to make the same sacrifices that they—some of them, alas!—have already made, and that all of them to-day are prepared to make. Will the House allow me to read an extract from a letter I have received? It impressed me very much. It is very short:
"We went without fuss at the beginning of the show Thousands of us were married. We gave up our work, our businesses, our little shops, or our jobs without special appeals from Lord Derby or anyone else. Our 'pals' have gone down in thousands upon thousands at Mons, at the Marne, at Neuve Chapelle, at Loos, in Gallipoli, and every day in the trenches. We have seen men who joined very late promoted over our heads, and we see photographs and read paragraphs about 'heroes in khaki' who seem to do most of their fighting at Westminster, or Whitehall, or Piccadilly. Distinctions are showered upon them who have hardly seen a shot fired. All this we have accepted. It always does happen, and we suppose it always will happen. But where we reach our limit is when we see this pampering of men who ought to have joined up twenty months ago, men who have been filling jobs we vacated, men who have been making money, and drawing wages higher than their wildest dreams imagined. We see red when we hear such men declare that they will mutiny if their rents are not paid, and if others are not pressed to go also."
That is the spirit, I believe, in which all our operations here at home are being watched and followed. I know the charge that is made against His Majesty's Government of delay and hesitation. I know that it is said by some—and they have the courage, at all events, of their conviction—that we are not doing our utmost to bring this War to a final and a successful conclusion. I can only say that, speaking as one who, at all events, knows not only the actions of the Government, whether they be those which are not disclosed in full or those which are, but also the mind of the Government, it is in this spirit that we have striven to do our duty. I believe that the statement I have made to-day must be regarded by impartial men as a clear proof that we have not halted by the way, that we are doing all that men can do to find these men and bring them to the Colours, and at the same time to maintain our national industry. It is because we feel it to be a sacred duty to support our heroes at the front that we have striven, and shall strive, to give them all the support to which they are entitled.
Although I myself am not at the present moment, and have not been at any time during the long crisis of this War, inclined to be led away in the slightest degree by perorations, or even, I am afraid, to appreciate perorations, I may say this to the right hon. Gentleman that he may be perfectly sure that the spirit in which I rise to make the very few observations which I think I ought to make is the spirit of the writer of the letter which the right hon. Gentleman has just read out, and that spirit alone. If I thought that everything was being done that ought to be done, putting aside all questions of parties and all questions of inconvenience to the Government, I should be the very last to say one word. In point of fact, so far from detracting from anything that is said in that letter, I want more to be done in the direction of that letter than I think has been done. The writer of the letter complains of the constant bickerings that go on at Westminster and Whitehall. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I thought he said gentlemen came and fought their battles here. I think my right hon. Friend will see that I am not misinterpreting the letter. Nobody deplores that more than I do, and I think one of the most lamentable exhibitions that have taken place for a long time under the conditions in which we are now is that for months this agitation should be allowed to go on as regards the married men and the single men and the question of recruiting generally. It should have been made clear, as clear can be, that, so far as numbers are required for the purpose of keeping up our units in the field, the Government would not lose one moment in procuring the men who were necessary.
For the last seven months—it is seven months since I have had anything to do with these conferences—this question of recruiting has never been grappled with in a proper and reasonable spirit. I do not hesitate to say that, in my opinion, the way in which the Derby scheme was launched was a mistake. In my opinion it would have been far better, though I am not going to discuss it to-night, for the Government to have said they had laid down a policy—not the ordinary policy in relation to war of going on as well as, and as hard as, we can and then taking such men as we can get, but a policy of crushing a great nation, which is the policy that has been so often announced in this House. They ought not to have asked themselves whether this man or that man or the other man ought to be called to serve with the Colours, but they ought to have calculated what force it would require for us to crush Prussianism and to crush Germany for ever, which is what they have announced as their policy. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO!" and "Hear, hear!"] Well, is not the sword unsheathed we have so often heard of the policy of this country? If that is so, the Government ought not to have asked themselves, "Whom can we get with convenience; whom can we draw along with us; whom can we please?" Nothing of the kind. They ought to have asked themselves the one sole question, "What is necessary to fulfil and complete the policy which we have announced to the world, to our Colonies, to our Empire, and to our Allies?" So far as I am concerned, having said that I thought the matter was not properly grappled with, it certainly does seem to me a great scandal it should have gone on for seven months without having been completed. Now at the end—and it must be somebody's fault—the worst of it is in this War it is never anybody's fault—we are in a condition of some men saying they have been deluded, of some men saying a pledge or something of that kind has not been kept; and all this is going on as if we had an armistice with the Germans, and could take our own time for the working out of the matter of the necessary troops we require to bring this War to a successful conclusion.
Why are the men dissatisfied? After all, I do not suppose my right hon. Friend suggests—indeed, I know he would not suggest—that these men, having made their attestation, are now so cowardly that they would not carry it out. I am perfectly sure he would never make such a suggestion. But why is it? It is simply for this reason, that you have been taking up this question piecemeal instead of looking at it as a whole, and looking ahead to see what was going to happen. Believe me, before long you will find that this affair of recruiting has come to this pass, that the only possible way in which you can bring about equality of justice to all classes is to make your compulsion which you introduced in that Bill applicable to every man of military age in the country. I do not want to discuss that at the present moment, but I shall not hesitate to raise it in the House when certain figures which have been promised us have been given. But at the present moment, if you ask me what is the real basis of the objection of the married men, I think it is this: I think they were told, and told plainly, that before they were called up the call would be on unmarried men who had no families. Many an unmarried man is supporting a very large family, and has as great an obligation as a married man, and that will be one of the reasons why you cannot draw a distinction in the question of compulsion. But they got this pledge. Who is to judge whether the pledge has been carried out? That is the great difficulty of the situation at the present moment. I impute no dishonesty to any person, but, having heard the speech of the right hon. Gentleman to-day, is any man unreasonably or is he necessarily unjustifiably delaying when he has heard it is only now that we are really inquiring what has become of all these unmarried men? A married man comes forward and says, "I promised to go when the unmarried men had gone." Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us, even to-day, how many of these unmarried men are either hidden away in the munition factories, to which the Government are now beginning to pay attention, or in other businesses and in other employments? Of course he cannot.
But my right hon. Friend told us a most extraordinary thing. He said they are going to begin to pay attention to the Registration Act. Why, the Registration Act contains Clause after Clause compelling men who move about from place to place to signify what their new address is, and imposing penalties if they do not do so. Have you done that? No, you have not done that, and you have not kept up the Registration Act. The right hon. Gentleman knows that they have not kept it up, and he knows how useful the Registration Act is. I think he will find that many letters addressed to registered addresses have been returned, and they have not been able to trace the men who have not complied with the Act in telling where they have gone to. I think my right hon. Friend will admit that. I want to know why, all of a sudden, they are going to attach so much importance to the Registration Bill? As is usual, only because the public are now taking up the question, and the public are seeing, through the agitation of the attested married men, that there were real grounds for their objections, which were not unpatriotic grounds, but were grounds formed on part of the whole scheme of the right hon. Gentleman and the Cabinet when they adopted Lord Derby's scheme. After all, let us do justice to these men. I cannot see myself why the man with a wife and four or five children, because he has been patriotic enough to go and attest, should be placed in the position that the only thing he can do, whether he has a business or not, is to break the lease, and I cannot see how you can rest while leaving that man in that position while a man next door who has no children, and who has not attested, will not break his lease, but probably he will get the business of the man next door when he goes away. At all events, have you not some reason, even if they are now attested, for following out the principles of equality of sacrifice before they are asked to go? You cannot treat them as men who under ordinary conditions would have gone. We know what took place while these men were being attested. The whole object then was to make the Derby scheme a success, and, if possible, put off, rightly, any Compulsory Bill being brought in at all. I cannot but think that the whole management of this business by the Government themselves—and really we must come some time or other to the conclusion that a Government is not always infallible—have raised this dire distress amongst the married men.
But, again, as regards delay, why is it only to-day when, on a letter written or a question asked on behalf of Lord Derby yesterday, we asked for this discussion, that the married men are to be told that sums can be given as Grants-in-Aid? Why is it only to-day that we are to be told that the Emergency Powers are to be increased? Why is it only to-day that we are told that there are to be powers to protect leases? The married men have been crying out about all these things. What is the excuse as to why these things are left to go on from day to day without a decision come to when a decision ought to be come to at once? In point of fact, if the right thing had been done in this case, what ought to have been done was that the whole question of married men attesting, how they would be affected afterwards and when they would have to go, and what would be done under obligations which bound them by law—all that is not three questions, it is one question. The question of hunting out the single men who have gone away to other employments, some of them to starred employments or reserved employments, all those were questions which should have been considered six and seven months ago when you were starting and trying to run the Derby scheme. You have given a pledge. Why do you wait for months to find out how many men are left? It is only when the pressure of the public, brought about by what I think is a most harmful thing, the agitation of these men who are called up to go to the Colours under painful circumstances, that the Government move in the matter at all. In my opinion every one of these questions by foresight—and we expect some foresight even from the Government—ought to have been considered when the Derby scheme was being set in motion.
Even now the way it stands is that you are calling up the married men before you even know what are the number of unmarried men who are available. You are saying that the pledge is being kept at the very moment that you are not able to tell us what will be the definite number of the men who can be called to the Colours who have not got the obligations of the married men. For my own part I feel that these married men who have attested will go out as they are called, and feel perfectly certain, notwithstanding what treatment they may feel has been meted out to them in relation to these matters, those responsibilities they will accept; but at the same time my grievance at all events with the Government at the present moment—because I think there is a much larger question—is that we should have permitted day after day, week after week, and month after month, agitations on these questions to go on in the country, leading men taking different sides, even married men and unmarried men, upon these questions when all of them ought to have been made clear beyond doubt and clear beyond the possibility of difference. You were bringing in a serious matter asking these married men, no matter what their financial position or their obligations, to come out and attest as they have done. For my own part I look upon all this as a very small part of a great question. I believe you will never get men to go away—they may go as they will go through patriotism—but you will never get the married man to go in a satisfied condition, or with his family in a satisfied condition, when he sees his next-door neighbour, who may be better off than himself, staying behind and shirking his duty.
How many married men have gone?
That has nothing to do with the argument. They have gone, and certainly no one more than myself rejoices at the heroism and the sacrifice and suffering that they have shown in going, but I say that in this case, where there is a necessity for getting more and more men from day to day, it is a grievance to the man who has attested voluntarily that he should leave his wife and perhaps six children while the man next door, with no children at all, should be left behind. That is a matter which will have to be gone into later on. At the present moment I rejoice that the Government are taking, even as I think rather late, steps of the kind which have been indicated by the right hon. Gentleman. I rejoice that these unmarried men are being hunted out of the places in which they are taking refuge in order that they may go out and take their position as soldiers of the King in the field.
May I say one other word before I sit down, and it is this: In my opinion, although I was one of those certainly who was not in favour of the Derby scheme, those who take views hostile to the Government as regards the delay ought to take great care not to try and mix in anyway Lord Derby with these matters. In my opinion Lord Derby, in undertaking this scheme, has fulfilled a great obligation to the State. I believe that, Lord Derby has done everything that he undertook to do and that he promised to do, and as I know he has never ceased to do. I know he has never ceased to urge that these unmarried men should be traced out, as my right hon. Friend says they will be traced out. Let us, for heaven's sake, give up attacking individuals in relation to these matters who are doing services to the State, and doing the best they can for the country. I have no sympathy with the attacks that I see made from time to time upon Lord Derby, and I merely say—not that Lord Derby's honour requires any words from me or anybody else—that I would be sorry that anybody should think that I for a moment feel that the delays which have taken place should in the slightest degree be lightly laid aside to take up any personal view of a man who has tried to do his duty to his country.
The right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has made a speech which it seems to me has not been worthy of him on this occasion. The right hon. Gentleman was himself a member of the Cabinet when Lord Derby's scheme was started.
No, that is not so.
Of course I accept the right hon. Gentleman's word.
I should not have any objection to the hon. Member's statement, but it is not so.
Lord Derby's scheme, at any rate, was started with the consent and knowledge of the Government with the object of raising a sufficient and a definite number of men, and I think that fact is exceedingly important in this connection.
It was started to avoid compulsion.
If that is so, then it was a very good reason. I helped, and members of my party helped, to, form a recruit- ing committee along with Lord Derby with the object of securing this definite number of men.
Will the hon. Gentleman tell us what number of men?
No, the hon. Gentleman will not. That is a matter for the Government to disclose to the House. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] Certainly it is a matter for the Government. Lord Derby's scheme was started with the object of raising a definite and, as I believe they thought at the time, an adequate number of men to carry out what the right hon. and learned Gentleman stated ought to be, and what in my opinion also ought to be, the supreme task of the Government at this moment, namely, to win this War at the earliest possible moment. The question of the method of obtaining that number of men has been at issue many months. The Government decided that an attempt should be made, through Lord Derby's scheme, to obtain them first by voluntary means. I and my friends associated ourselves with that effort, and I still believe that they would have been raised in a sufficient number to meet all necessary demands by voluntary means if certain things had not taken place. I agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman that the Derby scheme was not carefully thought out, and was not carried out as it ought to have been. Certain pledges introduced into the middle of the scheme made it difficult to argue the question in a fair and impartial manner as the House ought to do. It is because of these difficulties that we find ourselves in the position in which we are at the present time. It must surely be evident even at this moment that to call for a general system of compulsion applicable to all men of military age is not to face the problem which the Government have got to face. Having set out to obtain a definite number of men the question how to obtain them was a matter for consideration. The Government decided upon the Derby system to start with and carried it up to a certain point. The House of Commons, never having challenged the Government up to that time, I think we ought to accept the fact that it agreed with the Government in seeking to obtain the men by these means.
The right hon. and learned Gentleman has never yet shown, nor has anyone shown, that these men have not been raised in sufficient numbers and at the rate which Lord Kitchener requires them. It certainly cannot be proved that the demands which Lord Kitchener has made have not been met up to now. If these men were being obtained at that rate, then the Government cannot be charged with any delay whatever in obtaining the number of men necessary for the Army. I believe that to be true, and, having served on Lord Derby's Recruiting Committee from the very beginning, and having had an opportunity, therefore, of knowing what has been going on, I feel confident that no charge of undue delay in raising the necessary number of men for the Army can be brought against the Government. The Government had to face another thing which the right hon. Gentleman has not faced. They had to face the question how they were going to equip this Army if they raised it by compulsion in large numbers and if the men were drafted into the Army straight away. [An HON. MEMBER: "They would take them as they wanted them!"] They are getting them as they want them now.
They are not.
The right hon. Gentleman says that they are not, but I venture to say that they are. The question is whether we are getting the number of men which Lord Kitchener said he wanted, at the rate at which he said he required them, and in the time he wants them. If Lord Kitchener is getting that number of men, and nobody has yet proved that he is not, then no charge of undue delay can be brought against the Government, and if they are carrying out the pledge which the Prime Minister gave with regard to single men, and which was given in the Military Service Bill which we passed, then there is no grievance on the part of the married men in being called up at the present time. This general recruiting question is undoubtedly a great problem, but on the whole we have to congratulate ourselves, and we ought to congratulate the Government and the country, on the splendid spirit in which men of all classes have rallied to the country under the voluntary system. I am sure that all those men who came forward in the early days of the War, and who have gladly made the sacrifices which the men now being called upon are asked to make, and some of them more, look upon this agitation, and, if the right hon. and learned Gentleman likes, upon these bickerings, with a certain amount of dislike. They feel that they have done their duty, and many of them would much prefer that we left it to the others to do their duty in the same way.
I agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman that the proposals which have been put forward are rather late in the field. It would have been much better if this question of the obligations, both of those who have already gone and of those who are now called upon to join the Army, had been met much earlier. I do not know that I can say much about the way in which they are being met until we have the particulars much more fully. It is overlooked that in the earlier days of recruiting in many cases, such as the case we had this afternoon, local authorities, railway companies, banks, insurance companies, and many other people, made to their men who went into the Army large grants supplementing the separation allowance and the pay of the State and that helped to drain off a large number of men whose obligations could be met, leaving a residuum whose obligations we are now called upon to face. That ought in all fairness to be said at this stage. Nevertheless, the Government have had notice a long time that this problem was becoming acute and would become acute, and a little earlier decision would have prevented much of the agitation and much of the trouble which has now arisen. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Swansea (Sir A. Mond), for instance, introduced a Bill with regard to a moratorium. I am not going to say whether I agree with the policy of a moratorium or not, but that was certainly a plain indication that this problem was urgent and required some attention. I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board some questions with regard to the present position. We are told that the Statutory Pensions Committee are to be allowed to make grants under rules which are to be set up. Are they to make those grants out of the million pounds which has already been voted them?
No, out of fresh money.
Is fresh money going to be given of once?
Oh, yes!
I think we are entitled to ask whether the Government have made up their minds how much that sum is to be and when they propose introducing the Bill which will make the grants to these Statutory Pensions Committees. I hope that the grants will be made soon and that the rules will be out in a very short time. I suppose the proposal is that the grants should take the form of increased separation allowances.
Not necessarily.
Will they be fixed grants?
Not necessarily. They will probably take the form of grants made specially in respect of certain liabilities incurred by the individual. In respect of those definite liabilities certain Grants-in-Aid of payments will be made by the committees. They will not take the form of additional separation allowances As my hon. Friend knows, that is already done by the Pensions Board Committee out of the funds at their disposal supplemented by our funds.
I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. The House would also be obliged if it could be assured that, the rules which are going to be framed will be set up very early.
Certainly.
7.0 P.M.
And that the particulars will be given in such a form that we may know them at the earliest possible moment. If the House, or certain Members of the House, choose to start an agitation and to plunge the country into a controversy upon the question of the compulsion of unattested married men, they will raise a storm and a controversy which will destroy the unity of the nation in this War and which will probably do more to defeat the country than to help it to victory. Surely if, as I believe, the actual number of men which the military authorities require to win this War can be obtained by a steady pursuit of the law as it stands at the present moment, and by the resources, which are at present at the disposal of the Government, it is not only futile but folly to embark upon another controversy of a serious character which will lead to an agitation throughout the country and which may help to break Governments and to plunge us into a position out of which we shall find it difficult to find a way. I utter that word of warning. I make no threat—I do not believe in threats—but I do know that there is profound dissatisfaction with the working of the present compulsion scheme. I do know that any further attempt at compulsion will not go through this House as easily as the last Bill. I do know that throughout the country generally there is beginning to be a profound distrust of all these agitations, these manufactured agitations, to compel this House to take steps which of its own initiative it would not take. A good deal has been said with reference to Lord Derby. I want to associate myself with the statements made regarding Lord Derby's honour. I do not suppose it is needed for a single moment. With several of my colleagues I have been closely associated with Lord Derby. I want to say, with regard to the proceedings of the Parliamentary Recruiting Committee, there have been no men on that Committee who have been more anxious and more desirous of assisting the Government to obtain the number of men they want and to obtain them in the best possible way—to prevent shirking, or going into occupations which would enable men to hide, either from the Military Service Act or from service—no Members have been more desirous to assist the Government than the Labour Members of that Committee. I say this by way of parenthesis. I want to add that, so far as I am concerned, having been associated with Lord Derby on that Committee, I am quite sure his honour will come out untarnished in reference to this whole recruiting problem. I am only sorry that a fair trial was not given to Lord Derby's scheme. In my opinion it has been hampered at every turn by agitation here and by newspaper comment there, but if a fair chance had been given it I am quite sure it would have proved from the very beginning a great and splendid success.
I have listened with great interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Wardle), and especially to the concluding part of it, and I am sure we all desire to associate ourselves with his tribute to Lord Derby. I have never heard Lord Derby spoken of with other than the very greatest respect, except on one occasion, and that was by a member of the Cabinet—Lord Selborne—who stated that Lord Derby had no right to speak for the Government and that he spoke with no authority. We are all ready to concede to the full the great service which Lord Derby has rendered to the country in connection with his scheme. I will not say anything about the warning the hon. Member for Stockport addressed to the House. It is a controversial matter into which we need not enter now. The fundamental point is, What are the necessities of the country? That is the real point we have to consider. As I understood the hon. Member, he and his fellow Labour Members have had advantages denied to the rest of the House.
No!
I am bound to come to that conclusion. The hon. Member said there was a definite number of men to be raised by Lord Derby's scheme. That was a secret. It was not known to the people of this country; certainly it was not known to me.
I said that when Lord Derby's scheme was started a definite number of men was required. I did not say it was under the Derby scheme.
I think the hon. Gentleman is so familiar with his own information that, perhaps, he is not aware it comes as a surprise to us. I now understand the hon. Member to say that, before the Derby scheme was initiated, a certain definite specified number of men was required. It is perfectly well known—and I do not mention it in a controversial spirit—that voluntaryism pure and simple had failed at that point to procure the necessary men, and that the Derby scheme was called into existence in order to safeguard voluntaryism. I do not think anyone will dispute that. When the Derby scheme was in its mid-career it was found that it would not suffice, and then there came the threat of compulsion. In the middle of the Derby scheme, too, there came the suggestion to the married men that they would not be called up except under specified conditions. Am I not putting it quite clearly?
No.
I very much regret to hear that. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board is not here at the moment, but he said, "I am doing my best." I understood the hon. Member to say also that Lord Kitchener was satisfied with the position.
No.
I understood the hon. Member to vouch for Lord Kitchener's opinion. But we well know what Lord Kitchener said. His words were: "The numbers are disappointing, and the situation is anxious." On one point there ought to be no controversy of any kind, and that is that the governing principle which should guide us is not the fate even of Governments, it is not the fate of any individual, but it should be the real necessities of this War and the conditions that have been created by it. These are the governing points. With regard to the number of men, it has come on me with some surprise. These things have been going on for months. With regard to the Labour party, let me say at once that they have done splendid work for the Parliamentary Recruiting Committee. I am quite sure we all appreciate their great achievements in that direction. But members of the hon. Member's party said many months ago that there was not a single man that could be spared from industry. The position taken up was, if you take more men for the Army you will dislocate industry, harm the export trade, and interfere with merchant traders.
Whom does the right hon. Gentleman refer to when he talks about "the hon. Gentleman's party"? We certainly make no such assertion.
I was wrong. I thought it was a united party. But the hon. Member I had in my mind was the hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas). He is not in his seat now, but I think it will be admitted that on more than two occasions—and if anyone will take the trouble to look up the OFFICIAL REPORT they will confirm this—the hon. Member said definitely, and especially in regard to the railways, that not another man could be spared. What is the position of the Government? We have somehow or other got on to the question of the married men. It is really a thousand pities there should be so much agitation in the country before anything is done. The hon. Member who spoke last said the House of Commons was not acting on its free initiative, and that there was some tremendous compelling power driving us to do things which we would not do of our own free will. I do not think any hon. Member feels that he is compelled to do things he does not want to do. That is carrying the doctrine of compulsion too far. At any rate I can say that for myself. My attitude upon this matter of compulsion has been unchanged for twelve months. I have advocated it because I think it is the right thing.
With regard to delays. As I understand it, two things have been done in connection with the reserved occupations. Those occupations have been diminished, and from them a number of men have been taken up to a certain age. These are two reforms of which I heartily approve. But I cannot understand why it should have taken five or six months to bring them into operation. When we come to the question of the removal of financial disabilities there are three points. First, the Statutory Pensions Committee is to deal with cases of financial hardship, the Emergency Act is to be extended, and finally the whole burden is to be thrown on the State. Again, I cannot understand why it should have taken six months to discover that that is the right principle to adopt. I am glad to see the President of the Local Government Board is now in his place, as I want to deal with the pledge which the Government gave to the married men. The first pledge was that married men should not be called up as long as there was a considerable number of young unmarried men, eligible to join the Colours—as long as the number standing outside was not a negligible quantity.
The right hon. Gentleman has missed the point of my interruption. The qualification about reserved occupations, and so forth, were always a part of the pledge.
I quite agree. As long as a man is indispensable in national work of course he would not come in, and that would be taken into account when arriving at the negligible number. I cannot understand the right hon. Gentleman speaking with such confidence of having kept that pledge. I have heard him say, "I am doing my best to keep these pledges, but I do not know whether I have succeeded or not," That is the true situation.
No.
The point is, if he has no numbers to satisfy me with to-day, you are removing these men from the reserved occupations. I do not understand that he got precise figures, which will tell me whether these unmarried men are outside the number of Forces.
Everybody is taken to be outside.
They are in addition.
Then in addition to the pledge being kept you are going beyond your pledge.
Hear, hear!
Some of us did not understand that. However that may be, I thought there were so many people hiding in munition works, so many people who had given false addresses and avoided registration, that you did not know how many there were, and I pictured the right hon. Gentleman diligently hunting these men throughout the country. Otherwise, how was he to know how many to hunt for unless he got more precise particulars? Now the second pledge is this. In an official poster it was said that men who cannot serve immediately, whether from domestic or business reasons, should enlist in Lord Derby's reserve before 30th November, 1915. The poster went on to say that the Prime Minister and Lord Derby assure the country that those who do not respond will be dealt with first, and that when the Reserve is called up single men will be called first. Is that capable of any other meaning than I have put on it, that it is a direct suggestion to married as well as single men? Is it not perfectly clear from that poster that the married man who does not attest will be dealt with first? Is it capable of any other interpretation? There would be no sense in it if it were. But, as it has turned out, the unattested married man is not to be called upon at all. The point I want to insist on is that it is stated here, for the information of the married men, that if they do not attest they will be the first called upon. But now it turns out, not only will they not be the first called upon, but they will not be dealt with at all.
I am very reluctant to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but it is very important we should know what is the particular poster to which he refers and by whom it was issued, because Lord Derby's pledge, endorsed by the Prime Minister, was quite distinctly stated in the public Press on the 15th November, and I have never seen any variation of it. Some poster may have been issued by some association to the effect stated by the right hon. Gentleman, but, at any rate, this is the first time I have heard of it.
I will pass over to the right hon. Gentleman all my authorities ( handing papers ).
Tell us what it is.
I have not got the circular or the poster. This is a letter purporting to copy a poster verbatim. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] If it is wrong, there it is, and I apologise to the House.
Was it a poster issued by the "Daily Mail"?
I am assuming that it is an accurate account of what the poster said. If it is inaccurate I have only to apologise to the House—I have not verified it. The paper was sent to me to-day, and really that is all I know about it. Assuming for the moment that it is a real poster, I think it does admit itself to the interpretation which I put upon it. I will not put it higher than that for the moment. Then there is what the Prime Minister said, which carried the matter very much further. The President of the Local Government Board was rather merry as to his experience of electioneering, and compared canvassing for the Army with canvassing for votes. Really it is rather more serious than canvassing for votes. What is open to men canvassing at political elections is not open to men who are canvassing men to join the Army and who have to risk life and limb as these men have to do. I submit that the married men are really not shirking their obligation in any way. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman in saying all honour to them. But he a little modified that and rather suggested that, whatever honour might be due to them, they were not acting quite up to the traditions of that honour in taking the steps they have taken. I do not complain of that.
No, no! I made no charge against the married men; my charge was against those who, as I think, misrepresent the case of the married men.
The Press is free to us, and we have seen what the alleged secretaries have said—I am bound to be careful now, because I have only newspaper reports—we have seen a long programme in the papers to-day as to their claims. At any rate, I feel quite certain of this, that their position is a difficult one. The whole difficulty has arisen, if the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to say so, from one fact, that is this: That the Government of the country ought not to be pledging itself to its citizens. It ought not to be trafficking with them. It ought to give them a command and get done with it. That is the real point of this controversy. You told the citizens, "It is your duty to come," as you put it upon the poster. Now you say, "Do come and we tell you you shall not go until something else has happened." Then there arises controversy. If you want to avoid all this bickering and controversy, be more clear and definite in your commands to the citizens of this country. I feel quite sure any call you may make upon them will be gladly responded to. You are underestimating the anxiety of the people of this country to render what service they can to the country at this time of war.
The motive of this Debate is perfectly evident as far as the speakers on the other side of the House are concerned. The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Dublin University (Sir E. Carson) said quite frankly that he was glad all the young men in the country were being hunted, and that he hoped that compulsion would be made applicable to every man in the country. I take an entirely opposite view from that. My hon. Friend the Member for Stockport (Mr. Wardle) has put the case very well. The argument is that voluntaryism has failed, and that we must now resort to compulsion. I do not believe for one moment that voluntaryism has failed, except in this respect—that compulsion has stopped it. The moment you resorted to Conscription voluntaryism dried up. There was an attempt in the recent Debates on the Army, which was joined in by the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. Duke) and by the right hon. Gentleman who opened this Debate, to throw upon us, who are the opponents of compulsion, the charge of having divided the country and prevented it from presenting a united front. That is an absolutely false charge to make. It is the introduction of compulsion that has divided the country. We are all as anxious as anyone to win the War; we are all as anxious as anyone for a united front; we are all as anxious as anyone to support the responsible Government, but surely that does not mean that we may not criticise its policy, or even oppose its policy, when we differ from it, as we do on the question of compulsion—a policy which has so much to do with winning the War and presenting a united front. I admit that no sacrifice is too great in order to win the War. I wish I could feel as confident as most Members of the House and as most men I meet with outside that we are quite sure to win it. I am afraid the First Lord of the Admiralty would place me among those men who he said charge us with having caused dissension and divided the country. In speaking on the Second Reading of the Bill I myself warned the Cabinet beforehand. I said: be impossible to vote for Conscription. It is at once the foundation and the bulwark of Prussian militarism. So far from destroying Prussian militarism, we are creating it here, and transferring it from Germany to this country. I say, therefore, it must be evident now to the Prime Minister that Conscription has failed. Look at the ferment it has caused in the country. Look at the resistance of the married men of which we have been hearing just now. Look at the grossly non-judicial tribunals. Look at the harrying, abuse, and contempt of conscience. Look at the searching of starred and reserved occupations and the hunting for badged men; and look at the laxity of the medical service in turning into the Army, as we have lately heard, the halt, the maim, and the blind!
All this shows that there was no great reserve of young men to conscript—nothing worth while changing our whole military system to effect. The Prime Minister said he was still a voluntaryist, and he repeated in the last speech that he made in this House that he is still a voluntaryist. We are voluntaryists. The only difference is that he is a voluntaryist who has denied his faith and we are voluntaryists who have not denied our faith. I think it was in the crisis of the American War that Abraham Lincoln said, "I am not bound to win, but I am bound to be true to myself." I have no doubt the Prime Minister was over persuaded. He is a Minister in a Coalition Cabinet. All the men around him do not agree with the principles he has been brought up upon, and they would say to him, I have no doubt, as Bassanio said to Portia when he was pleading for his friend against Shylock: all round for everybody. They will have it for its own sake. And those of us who voted against him, how gladly we would follow him again if he would but lead us into our accustomed pasture.
Something has been said about the voluntary movement. Just compare the success of the voluntary recruiting movement with the failure of Compulsory Service. A huge Army sprang into existence as it were in a moment a year ago. Millions of men were willing and eager to go. Now we see the married men my right hon. Friend has been talking about trying to avoid the honour of going there to fight. They say, "Send someone else." It looks to me as if many of them had attested on purpose to escape service. They now want to send the timid, unwilling, sensitive, unsoldierlike and anæmic young men and men with deep religious scruples to fight our battles. I agree that there is no real difference between the married and the single. You cannot draw the line there. There are brave men in both. There are shirkers and cowards in both. The real difference is between the volunteer and the Conscript. You can lead our people anywhere, but you cannot drive them. I would remind the House of a familiar line in Longfellow's "Psalm of Life."
The hon. Gentleman has treated us to much poetry, which would be exceedingly interesting if the occasion were not so grave. I think he has added nothing to the really deep question that moves the country at this moment. The question I wish to address myself to is that of the married men, and when I heard the hon. Gentleman say the married men are seeking to shirk their obligations because they have attested, I respectfully suggest to him it is an infamous insinuation to make, it is without foundation, and it is not the case.
I said it looked as if that was the case with some of them.
Then I submit that it is more improper to make an insinuation than to state a fact, and it is an unfounded insinuation and a monstrous one. I will remind the House of what my view of the situation was. We held, with great success throughout the country, recruiting meetings inviting men, married or single, of military age to come forward voluntarily and offer their services. Those meetings were attended with the greatest success up to a point, until at last in the summer of last year recruiting fell off and you might almost say there was no recruiting at all.
Why was that?
The answer is very simple. The men did not come forward. If the hon. Member took any part in those meetings himself, did he find them come forward?
No. The recruiting was deliberately damped down.
That is an allegation which, in my view, is quite incorrect. The mere fact that someone makes an assertion does not prove it. That was not in my judgment the true position. The men would not come forward. Then we had the Registration Bill, and the Register was taken, and ultimately, about the end of October or November, recruiting from voluntary effort having almost entirely failed, Lord Derby was asked to undertake the task. My recollection is that Lord Derby said that he had been asked to undertake a bankrupt concern, but at the invitation of the Prime Minister, and in the interests of the country he would do it. If that effort had failed everybody knew—it was on the lips of every speaker at all the meetings—that the only alternative was to get the men by some process of compulsion, and that being the position, and the alternative being clear to the nation, Lord Derby, with the sanction of the Prime Minister, founded the Derby recruiting scheme. Every document which was issued to the country has to be read in relation to the alternative which was offered, and the alternative was compulsion. To anyone fairly taking up the pamphlet issued by Lord Derby in regard to recruiting, the condition and the meaning are perfectly clear:
"Would it not be better for the whole question to be decided before I enlist? I think I am indispensable. Can I not appeal without attesting?
No. Every man must be enrolled in Section B of the Army Reserve before he can put in a claim for postponement before the local tribunal."
What does that imply where you have the alternative position? The last effort of voluntaryism, and on the other hand the only alternative, which we had utimately to adopt, of compulsion. It means that a man put that hypothetical question, "Had I not better wait and see?" and he is told, "No; if you do not attest now, you will have no right to appeal. If you now attest, you will have a right of appeal." If you turn a little further in this book you will find a similar question put:
"What will the local tribunal do?
The local tribunal can decide whether a man is to be called up in his group or whether he shall be called up in a later group, but this only applies to a man who has attested."
These letters are printed boldly in large capitals. What did that really mean, and what did the nation understand it to mean in regard to the position as we then knew it? They said, on the one hand, "This is the last voluntary effort; if it fails there is compulsion," and the recruiting officers throughout the country told him, no matter what my right hon. Friend (Mr. Long) may say, "Unless you attest, being of military age, you will be compelled, and you will have no appeal at all." I have had it from the mouth of these men, and to show that that was carried out I have here a circular letter issued by the Mayor of Chatham, no doubt with authority:
CHATHAM PARLIAMENTARY RECRUITING COMMITTEE.
"A representative from the above Committee has endeavoured to see you, but has failed. I would point out the necessity of your calling at the Offices of the Town Hall for the following reasons:
1. It may be impossible for the canvassers to again call upon you.
2. In order to avail yourself of the advantages of Lord Derby's scheme, it is necessary for you to be attested before that scheme is withdrawn or closed."
Before I read further may I make this comment? What were the advantages of this scheme? If Lord Derby or the Government had gone on to say "the advantages of this scheme are nothing," the men would not have enrolled themselves in the way they did. But what was the possible advantage this scheme could offer? The contrast must be with compulsion, and of course if this document had gone on to say, "but for married men who do not attest there will be no compulsion," this scheme offered no advantage whatsoever. It is clearly misleading to the men. Let us see what the position is. Under this circular you offer the man an advantage. The advantage he is to get is against his fellow-man who is also married and who has not attested. But he has got
"Clause 3. Non-attested men will not have the right of appealing to the local tribunals."
They do not want it. They are under no compulsion whatever. They need never go to this War. They are at home. Then what is the advantage to the attested married men? A more misleading document, in view of what has happened, could not have been presented to this country.
Is that a War Office document?
It is headed "Chatham Parliamentary Recruiting Committee." It is a printed document and on the document is printed the signature of the mayor of Chatham (Mr. William Paine). Clause 3 reads as follows:
"Non-attested men will not have the right of appealing to the Local Tribunals set up for the purpose of considering cases of hardship or indispensability, but they will be left to be dealt with under any subsequent Act that may have to be enacted."
I ask anybody, judging between these men and what the Government have done, how can you in honesty say to these men, "You are bound to go." It is wrong. I submit that these married men have a case. This circular letter was sent out broadcast in Chatham. It was issued under the authority of the Mayor and of the Chatham Parliamentary Recruiting Committee, and was handed to me by one of a deputation of these men who saw me on this subject and who, so far from saying what I regret to say the President of the Local Government Board suggested, that they are shirking their liabilities—
I never said anything of the kind or anything that could possibly bear that meaning.
I regret to say that I certainly understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that.
I cannot help what you understood. I said nothing of the kind.
We shall see the OPFICAL REPORT to-morrow. My recollection is clear that the President of the Local Government Board did say that the case which is being made out for these married men was that they wanted really to escape from and to shirk their liabilities.
I should have thought it was possible to conduct a Debate of this kind without making suggestions of this sort about other speakers. I never said anything of the kind. What I pointed out was that those who represented the case of the married men and who put it in this way were doing the married men harm, because they put the case in a way in which I am perfectly convinced it was not made by the married men. I then explained what it would mean. I never used any language capable of the construction put upon it by the hon. and learned Gentleman.
I quite accept the statement of the right hon. Gentleman. He suggests, however, that the case put forward is not the case put by the married men. That is not the fact so far as I am concerned. My case is that these men have been misled by what they were told, and the married men certainly hold to that view. The circular from the Chatham Parliamentary Recruiting Committee concludes with the following words:—
"I strongly urge all men of eligible age to at once be attested.—Yours faithfully, Wm. Paine, Mayor."
On the faith of that these men attested. What is the position of these men who thus attested? They have no advantage unless it be considered an advantage to go to the War with their obligations thrown upon them. They are at a disadvantage, and they have been left in that position. They have been led into that position by the statements and representations made to them by recruiting officers and others. I would remind the President of the Local Government Board on this point that yesterday the Financial Secretary to the War Office took quite a different attitude. He said—and I submit rightly—that where a man had been induced to enlist on a promise of a certain rate of pay, although there was no authority to make that promise, still it was a bargain, and they would hold to it and pay the men what was promised. That is the right thing. It is not true to say that this agitation of the married men is a forced agitation. I believe these men sincerely and deeply feel it, and I believe at this moment that we are confronted with a very serious agitation in regard to this question, because representations and statements were made as to an advantage which is no advantage, unless you contrast it with compulsion as an alternative. There is another point in regard to the question of the single men. In the Debates on the Military Service Bill a figure of 600,000 was given as being Lord Derby's estimate of the number of single men who were not accounted for. What has happened to these men? We have had no figure given since. We do not know what has happened, and the married men are not satisfied that these men have been brought forward. I would remind those who say or impute that we are representing a case that the married men do not make that when the Bill for compulsory military service was introduced the important period for married men or the unmarried was 15th August. During the Committee stage of the Bill that date was put back to the 2nd November. What was the position of the married man who attested between these dates and the single man who got married between those dates? Having married between those dates, these young men have saved themselves; they are under no obligation at all. In truth and in fact, in that Bill there were concessions to everybody. Exemptions were introduced which made such loopholes in the Act in regard to particular trades and in other ways, and the married men consider them to be a great injustice. I believe that the real solution of the matter is to apply the measure to all married men of military age, as you have to the unmarried men. Eights of appeal are granted under it. You cannot get entire and complete satisfaction, but if that were done there would be no ground for suggesting that those who have attested did so with a view to avoiding service or in the hope or expectation that they would never have to go to the front. I believe that the attested married men are absolutely loyal to the country. I do think that if their case be fairly looked at it will be seen that misrepresentations, innocent though they may be, have been made, and thereby these men have been induced to do that which in their view is a disadvantage and not an advantage as compared with other married men younger or of the same age as themselves.
If the hon. and learned Gentleman had been making a speech in Chatham, and if he had been formulating a charge against the Mayor of Chatham and the Chatham Recruiting Committee, I could have agreed with a good deal of what he has said. But I take it we are not discussing Chatham, we are discussing a national question, and the House is called upon in this connection to consider whether or not anything has been done, which has been done nationally, and by responsible persons, unfair to the married men. I do not know what was said by the President of the Local Government Board as to the agitation in regard to married men, but I have no hesitation in saying that it has very largely been a vamped-up agitation, and that the married men have not been in all cases very fortunate in their champions. I get letters from various people in different parts of the country, and I have taken note of what has been going on during the last few months, and I cannot escape from the conclusion that very largely the people who have been the champions of these married men have been the same people who have put obstacles in the way of waging this War right from the time it started.
What is the position? So far as I understand it the married men were called upon to attest during the last few months of last year, and they were told that they would not be called upon to serve unless all the single men, except a negligible number, were either attested of their own free will or brought in by Act of Parliament. When the matter came up for discussion in the early days of this year, and when the statement was made that there were 651,000 single men unaccounted for, I voted for the Military Service Bill because two statements were made. The first was that the military requirements were such as to demand a Bill of that sort being brought in, so that the 651,000, or whatever number were found to be eligible and fit for service, could be brought in. I voted for the Bill on that ground, and also because the Prime Minister had given his word some months before that if there were more than a negligible number of single men unaccounted for—and 651,000 was in all conscience more than a negligible number—he would bring in a Bill in order to get in these unmarried men. That is a plain, straightforward, matter-of-fact statement of the position as far as I understand it. If there have been statements made at Chatham or at Salford, or anywhere else, contrary to that statement, it is unfair to hold the Government responsible. Looking at the matter in that way, it seems to me to be a very simple questions—why, in the name of common sense, did these married men attest at all if they did not want to serve? What is the extent of their grievance? At the very most it can be that they will be called up two, three, or, perhaps, four weeks before they might have expected to have been called up.
Hear, hear!
That is the full extent of it. Supposing every single man were taken out of the munition factories, or wherever they may be at the present time, and they were to go before the attested married men, probably that would mean that the attested married men of last year would be three or four weeks longer before being called to the Colours. That is the beginning, the middle, and the end of the grievance of the married men so far as it presents itself to my mind. Having said that, I do not want to say anything disparaging about these married men who joined last year. On the contrary, I want to give them every credit for a desire to serve the country and to back up their friends and comrades who had already gone to the front twelve months before. We are called upon, in so far as it can be done—and if it is to be done at all it ought to be done all through—to make some provision for these married men and their obligations. On that point I should like to ask the President of the Local Government Board if he would give us a little more light on his proposals. He says the Naval and Military Pensions Committee will be authorised to make grants in hard cases. I would like to know whether that means that the local committees throughout the country shall make inquiry into every case, deal with it on its merits, and make recommendations to the central body.
Hear hear!
8.0 P.M.
If so, I am afraid there is not much prospect in it for these married men who have been clamouring and have been holding meetings in Hyde Park and elsewhere, because, so far as I can understand, only about fifty of the 250 committees are yet in being. Therefore the married men will have to wait until some 200 committees are set up in addition to those already existing. Then they will have to wait until the committees have sent up their recommendations to the central authority, and the central authority deal with them. I do not know how many cases there are. One would imagine, from the amount of discussion which is going on during the last two or three months that there are millions of them. I hope that the numbers will be found to be small.
I am hardly entitled to speak, but I gather from the result of discussion which I have had with one or two members of the Board that the procedure will be somewhat different. In the first place, steps have been taken at once to expedite the setting up of these committees throughout the country. The general principles will be laid down by the Central Board, but so long as the relief cases came within those general principles the Central Committee would give a pretty free hand.
That may clear the matter up to some extent, but I cannot get away from the fact that on this Committee we have been getting on our legs for the last two or three months. We have been setting up scales appropriate to additional separation allowance, additional pensions, and so on, and we have some heavy work already without this additional burden being placed upon us. Of course, I can quite see that there is no other way possible to get uniformity and to get some efficient method of dealing with the cases coming before the Committee. All must be dealt with by the one body. I can only express the hope that the local committees, as the Under-Secretary of the Local Government Board, when dealing with the other little Bill last week, expressed the hope would be the case, will be set up at the earliest possible moment, because we are now getting machinery to deal with all cases of recognised hardship under the military service, and that machinery will, I believe, when fairly established, be of such a character as to enable us for the first time to deal with these things adequately, promptly, and efficiently, and inasmuch as the machinery cannot be called into working operation until all the committees are set up those who are concerned, who have to do with local government throughout the country, should set up those committees at the earliest possible moment, and upon that depends the success of the provision that is being made by the President of the Local Government Board. Then there is the question of the money. I should have liked to be told to what extent the Government are prepared to go in this matter.
After all to be told that the Committee are going to be given power to deal with hard cases does not take us very far. I should have liked to be told whether or not this Committee is to give attention and consideration to the pre-war standard of income, and how far it is only going to have regard to contracts that have been entered into by applicants for relief, because if that were so a great many hard and deserving cases would be shut out. I should have liked to have something in the nature of a provision, not to be strictly adhered to in all cases, whereby the principal thing in the mind of the Committee would be the standard of comfort, shall I say of pre-war income, of the applicant for relief. I think that if that were done it would cover most of these questions of contracts, leases and so on. However, I am very glad to learn that men with families will have the opportunity of getting rid of leases, because if a man goes away to the War, just as it very often happens when a man changes his sort of life, his wife may desire to live with a friend, or live in a smaller house, and therefore it is very desirable that a man should have an opportunity of getting rid of a lease in that case.
It has been said against us that the Labour party were given information that was not given to other sections of the House. If that is so, I do not know anything about it. I saw a statement in the Press some time ago that Lord Kitchener had committed himself to the statement that he wanted to keep a certain number of men in the field—I believe it was 1,500,000—and there was the further statement made that in order to keep that number in the field it was necessary to have, I think it was said, 30,000 a week. I do not know where the information came from, but it was never denied by the Government. It was only in that sense that my hon. Friend meant to convey that he believed that a definite number of men were wanted for the Army. That information was not singular to the Labour party. It was a matter as to which everybody had the opportunity of ascertaining for himself whether it was true or not. Therefore, it was in that sense that my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport (Mr. Wardle) said that a certain number of men were wanted for the Army, and that the Army was to be a definite size, and we were told that if the necessity arose compulsion was to be applied to single men in order to get that 30,000 a week.
Something has been said about single versus married men, and various opinions have been expressed about it. In that connection I do not in any way go back upon my vote. I believe in getting the single man before the married man, and I say that because the married man has got obligations—a wife and family. He is set up. Therefore, he should have consideration because of that, on what may be called human grounds. Apart from that it seems to me a perfectly logical position to take. Married men cost a great deal more, and, therefore, from the national point of view single men ought to come first. I do not regret my vote on that. Neither do I regret my vote, on the whole, on the Military Service Bill. I believe that it was a military necessity. I believe that it was necessary at the moment. In fact, we had no option but to redeem the Prime Minister's pledge, and those who do not want the single men brought in before the married men ought to have said so immediately after that pledge was made, instead of waiting two or three months until there was a question of redeeming it.
I desire to associate myself with my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport in this, having voted for that microscopic instalment of Conscription, if you can call it Conscription, because, after all, it is not an Act which becomes an integral part of the Constitution of this country, but it is an Act passed for the purpose of this War; it is an Act on all fours with what was done by the President of the United States, mentioned a little while ago by the hon. Member for Salford, in similar circumstances when a fight for freedom was going on on the other side of the Atlantic. Therefore, I do not regret my vote for the Bill as a matter of expediency and necessity. But I do want to say that there is no Prime Minister's pledge in the way now, there is no further pledge to be redeemed now, and so far as I can make up my mind I believe that we have got down nearly, if not quite, to rock bottom, and that we cannot release many more men, if any more men, from the industries of the country. We have constantly cases of application from farming industries for release from military service. We have set up a certain standard in our minds on the Central Tribunal as to what labour should be necessary on farms of a certain size. I believe that in normal conditions it is held that there ought to be a man on a farm of arable land for every thirty-five acres. Now we are not allowing farmers more than about one man for every fifty acres. Therefore, important as it is that the food supply of the country should be kept up to a 100 per cent. standard as compared with pre-war times, we are imposing more work per man upon the farm labourers.
It may be that that work will be assisted to some extent—I hope it will be—by the farmers employing women, who are making themselves so efficient in farm work as well as in other work. But still it is evident in those circumstances, and from other facts that have come before the tribunal on which I have had experience, that there are not many more men to get. Therefore, though I was disposed two months ago to take the assurances of the War Office and the military authorities generally as to military necessities, I am inclined to couple anything they may say now with the further fact that there is a scarcity of men to run the industries of the country, and therefore what the military authorities may have to say now will not have the same weight on my mind. The two reasons which induced me to vote for the Military Service Bill two months ago are now gone. Therefore, I am not called upon to vote for any extension of it. For those reasons I desire, in conclusion, to associate myself with what has been said by the hon. Member for Stockport that there are fundamental objections which weight very heavily on the minds of large numbers of people in this country against any extension of that Act. I hope that the Government will not be induced to pledge themselves to any such extension, because in so doing I believe they will be doing something which is unnecessary as far as I can gather, and which would take away from the industries of the country men who can ill be spared, and they will do something to foment further agitation and give a weapon to those who have been against the waging of this War from the beginning and who have done nothing, have not even lifted a finger, to help the country in the country's great need.
I desire to say how thoroughly I join with what has been said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blackfriars that the unmarried men should go first. What I was especially delighted to hear to-day from the President of the Local Government Board was that some new rule was being brought in by which men under twenty-five years of age, and in some cases under thirty years of age, were no longer to be exempted. I think that that is a great step in the right direction. We were all very glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blackfriars ask, "What is the grievance of the married men?" I will tell him what I think is the grievance of the attested married men. It is that the married unattested men are saying to the married attested men, "What a fool you were; what is the good of all your patriotism? You were a fool to attest. You have got to break up your house and I am getting off." One man has said to me, "I am being called an adjectival fool." Another, "Here I am, a married man with a. wife and three children and a house. Next door is a married man who is separated from his wife and has no dependants at all, and that man refuses to attest, and simply laughs at me all day for having attested."
Do you think that he is quite happy?
Those are the men who cause dissatisfaction amongst married men at the present time. Speaking on behalf of married men, I sympathise with them in this respect, and I most strongly repudiate what was said the other day by the hon. Member for Salford when he called all these attested married men shirkers. Here are these men who have attested voluntarily, and are ready to do their best when their turn comes. It really makes one's blood boil to hear the way in which they are referred to by men in this House, who do not mind in the least what they do to inflict compulsion on all men who have joined, and when a man comes from the front will compel him to go back again, and again; and who, when the time of a man who had enlisted was up, passed a law to make him stay on compulsorily two or three years more, yet will not have the slightest compulsion to make other men in the country serve their country. I thoroughly resent such words as those we had from the hon. Member for Salford opposite. The hon. Member for Stockport said that there was great dissatisfaction with the Military Service Act as it now stands, and great dissatisfaction with the scheme. Honestly, I do think there is great dissatisfaction throughout the whole country, and that the Prime Minister has only himself to blame for all the dissatisfaction we hear about the Military Service Act, which is an illogical and unstatesmanlike measure. Take the married men, about whom we are talking. What can be more illogical than the position with regard to them? Why should those men who attested since 15th August, 1915, have to go, while those who did not attest are not asked to go at all? What possible difference is there between the two? I think it was the hon. Member for Salford who said that there was no real difference between married men and single men. I quite agree with him, and I submit that there ought to be equality of treatment for everybody.
Take the rejected men. Why on earth should a man rejected after the 15th August be exempted, and a man rejected before the 15th August not exempted? Can there be anything more illogical than that? Then a man on attaining the age of forty-one ipso facto is out of the Act, while there is no provision made in that measure that men on reaching the age of eighteen should come within its scope. A man of eighteen coming home from abroad to this country comes under this Act; the man attaining the age of eighteen in this country does not come under it. Take two fathers living side by side—one with a son born on the 14th August and the other with a son born on the 15th August; one is taken and the other is left. Can anything be more likely to cause dissatisfaction? Then we have the question of the conscientious objector. The Prime Minister, when the Military Service Bill was introduced, referred to the Quakers when speaking of the conscientious objector, and to none but the Quakers, who were to be exempted; but when we came to deal with the measure nothing was done to lay down who was a conscientious objector and who was not, and consequently we see all these proceedings which are now going on before the tribunals. I cannot think of anything more likely to cause dissatisfaction than things of that sort. Nothing was done to provide that a man of eighteen should be trained so that he might be ready directly he attained the age of nineteen. A long time has elapsed since that question was raised, and it is only to-day that we have been informed that a step which was urgent before is now at last to be taken. Everybody knows that the best soldier in the world is the man of nineteen; he is most active at that time of life; he is just as good as any man as a soldier, and at that age can best be spared from industrial employment. I was there- fore only too glad to hear from the President of the Local Government Board to-day as to what is to be done in regard to that question.
Something should be done to encourage the junior training leagues throughout the country, consisting of youths from fifteen to seventeen, who are training to take their places when they become eighteen years of age. These junior training corps are doing splendid service, and in my district there are 2,000 of them going into training voluntarily. Again, look at the number of men rejected who do not come up to the required height and chest measurement. Three-fourths of these men can be made fit for enlistment, and are willing to enlist, and yet the Government put them aside. Is that statesmanlike? I say it is not statemanship. You may look where you will, but throughout the whole of this Military Service Act you will not see a sign of statesmanlike thought in any way whatever. In regard to the statement by the President of the Local Government Board as to the message he had received from Lord Kitchener, I must say when I listened to that message it was with the utmost astonishment, for it was made at a time when we had most serious depletion in the ranks both at home and abroad. The President of the Local Government Board on the occasion to which I refer said Lord Kitchener had given him the message, which was to the effect that the Military Service Bill would give him, by bringing in the unmarried men, all the men that he required. That was on the 18th January, but when we come to his statement in the other House of 16th March, Lord Kitchener said:
I think the hon. Member—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"] The hon. and gallant Member asked a question, and I wish—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!]
I did not ask you, Sir; I am asking the question of the Government. I have only mentioned those points to show how hard it is to understand the way in which this Act has been passed. I trust most sincerely that the time has now come when there will be equality of treatment for all, for I think that is the one thing which will give satisfaction to the whole country. I cannot agree at all with the suggestion that it would be resented in this country. I believe the whole of the people want equal treatment for every man, and I trust most sincerely that this will be accomplished.
A great deal has been made this evening of the argument that in the literature circulated by the Parliamentary Recruiting Committee—I believe that was the original source of it—there was a statement to the effect that if a man did not attest he could not go before the tribunals. That is a statement to which I paid attention at the time myself, and I believe the real meaning of it was that there were at that time a large number of men who believed that they had very serious reasons why they should not go to the Army, but who did not want to live under the imputation of being shirkers. These men in many cases said, "I am willing to go before the tribunal and explain my reasons for not joining," and that Clause was, I believe, directed to them, and meant that they could not have that opportunity of explaining their reasons unless they attested, but that if they did attest, they would have the opportunity, if they desired, to go before the tribunal and give the reasons why they ought to be exempted from service. If that was not the meaning of the Clause, and I believe it was, why was not attention called to it at the time? We are told now that it must be taken to have implied a threat that the men who did not attest would be treated worse than those who did attest, and that those who did attest might expect some better treatment than those who did not. If that was really the meaning of the Clause, it was surely a most improper statement to put about, but I wonder that those who put that interpretation upon it now gave us no warning at the time that that most improper threat was being put about. It is to me quite clear what has happened, and that is that now, when an argument is wanted for bringing in Conscription for all married men, this Clause has been hit upon and unearthed and is being used for that purpose. We are told that any stick is good enough to beat a dog with, and with many people any argument is good enough to support Conscription, which is a preconceived idea with them.
For my part, I still believe in the voluntary system. I still believe that if it had been properly worked, without all these difficulties being put in the way of raising recruits in certain districts, difficulties that were put in the way by the authorities, that it would have carried us through this War and got us practically all the men of fighting capacity who could be spared from the industries of the country; while the men who were not of fighting capacity would have found their way by a process of natural selection into those industries which must be kept going, and the men of real fighting capacity and nerve would have found their way into the Army. It is no good fighting about that question now; it is a dead question. The voluntary principle has been abandoned, at any rate to a very large extent, and compulsion applied to the unmarried men. It may now very plausibly be argued, having applied compulsion to one class of the community, the logical thing is to apply compulsion all round. But there is a very serious argument on the other side. There are very great practical difficulties about applying compulsion to the married men. There are their responsibilities and their unwillingness in many cases to undertake this particular service. There is the enormous expense which would be incurred if you were to provide for their families and for their financial obligations. I do not for a minute think that the question of expense is the only one that we ought to take into consideration in this matter or even the most serious thing.
There is an argument that applies to this case, and which I think has been most strangely neglected. We are told, if you send the married men to fight there are their obligations, and that if they are killed or totally disabled you have their widows and families to consider, and what a sad sight that is. Of course it is, but if you send the unmarried men, is it not equally sad? If those men are killed or totally disabled, it means that you are sacrificing the future of the race. The married men to a very considerable extent have their children and families, and the race, so far as they are concerned, is continued. If you send the unmarried men and they are killed or totally disabled, then in every case where the unmarried man is killed some young woman is condemned to compulsory celibacy for her life. If you imagine the process carried on to any considerable extent, you will find that a vast number of children in the generation to come will be totally lost to the State, and we shall be possibly faced with a dwindling population. Therefore, to me it seems to be just a choice of evils, and I do not know which is the greater, whether the married or the single men go. From that I draw the conclusion that it is not for us to attempt, to dictate or discriminate, but that wee ought, as far as we can, to make it possible for men of fighting instinct and capacity, whether married or single, to go and take their part in the War. So far as unmarried men are concerned, compulsion has been applied, but so far as the married men are concerned, I do deprecate very greatly the application of a further dose of compulsion. I say let us make it financially possible for the men who have obligations to go if they are willing to go, whether married or single. I was very glad to hear the statement made on behalf of the Government to-day as to the steps which they propose to take in order to make it financially possible for the married men who are willing to go to show their willingness. Whether the scheme will be in all respects adequate or sufficient I cannot now, and of course nobody can, say until it has been put into practice, and we see how it works out. It is, I am sure, a very great step in the right direction. I hope it means that the Government will pursue that policy, and that it will call upon those of us who cannot go and fight to make the necessary financial sacrifices. If they do that I believe they will avoid the very great difficulties and hardships which would arise if they applied a further measure of compulsion in the country. To my mind, compulsion is always an evil which is only to be tolerated if you cannot do without it without incurring a greater evil still. My feeling is, although we have applied compulsion to a certain extent in this matter of recruiting, that the true wisdom is to keep compulsion to a minimum, and not apply it to married men unless at some future time we should find ourselves absolutely obliged to do so.
I should be very sorry, indeed, if this Debate were to go out to the country and to be read in the newspapers with any sort of idea that there was any hesitation on the part of the House of Commons or the country to support the Government. We are prepared to support it in every way we can, and many of us have done so by personal help, and I am sure all of us are prepared to do so with money and any other assistance in our power. What is the good of discussing such questions as to whether compulsion or the voluntary system is the better, or as to how far married men or single men are being injured or affected by Lord Derby's scheme. We are, I am sure the House will agree, very much indebted to Lord Derby for his undertaking, and I am sure that the Prime Minister and the Government will back him up in any fair settlement of any misunderstanding that may have occurred in the negotiations with the married men. We do not want to be bothered with these things; we do not want it to go out either to this country or to Europe that this House has any hesitation upon these matters. We are satisfied, I hope, with the men who lead and represent us, and we are willing to leave it to them to deal fairly with all these matters, and perfectly willing to vote any money that may be required. That I am sure, too, is the general feeling of the country. I regret to see the carping criticisms which are levelled at the heads of the Government whom we have chosen to lead us and whom we must trust. I would like to ask hon. Members who go on with this policy of perpetual criticism and perpetual nagging, What do they want? Are they going to turn out the occupants of the Treasury Bench? If so, whom are they going to put in? I really ought to apologise for referring to a man who is so much admired and appreciated by the House of Commons as the right hon. and learned Member for Trinity College (Sir E. Carson). He gave us a long and interesting list of his objections to the policy of the Government. It was a very good speech, but it struck me as being six months too late. We were all very pleased to see him in the Cabinet, but if he could not agree with the Cabinet the time for him to have made that speech was, I submit, when he left the Cabinet. What is the good of it now? If he had various objections to make which could have affected the course of the Government, why did he not make them then? The right hon. and learned Member for Anglesey (Mr. Ellis Griffith) was very much distressed about some publication or other, but he never showed us that publication. He showed us an extract from a paper referring to it. As far as I understood it, here was a very difficult and serious matter for the Government, if proved. Why did he not prove it? All this is really unworthy of a serious situation.
The President of the Local Government Board made a most interesting speech, and one to which we listened with close attention, because it showed us how much the Government were doing. He closed that speech with a quotation from a letter from a man at the front. I think more of that letter than of any of the criticisms that we have had of the action of the Government. Something has got to be done. We put in the best men we can to do it. Why can we not leave them alone? Or, what is better than leaving them alone, why can we not support them? Why can we not assist them in every way possible? It seems to me that the proceedings of the last twelve months have brought three classes of persons a good deal into public notice. We have heard a great deal about the first. The second is composed of slackers and shirkers. I do not believe that they exist to any considerable extent. The third class, for whom I have no kind of use, are the crabbers. If there is any class of men for whom I have the greatest detestation—and I am sure the House and the country feel the same—it is the crabbers, who are for ever finding fault but are apparently unwilling or unable to help. I had an opportunity the other day of going down to the Harborough election. I really think that the figures of that election are worth observing. You have there a thoroughly interesting, industrial, political constituency, comprising all classes of opinions. There was a majority of over 4,000 for the Government candidate. Is not that enough? Is not that something worth looking at? I hope that this Debate will go out as showing that the House of Commons is united—I hope more united than ever before. The one question we put before the Harborough electors was, "Do you want the War to finish, or do you want to do something that will be pleasing to nobody except the Germans?" Harborough gave its answer. I am sure that on all these matters the Government may rest assured of the support not only of this House, but of the constituencies of the country and of the Empire at large.
Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, and negatived.
Army (Annual) Bill
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
Clauses 1 to 4 inclusive ordered to stand part of the Bill.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Insertion into the Army Act of New Section Relating to the Ill-treatment of Horses and Consequential Amendment of Section 24.)
(1) There shall be inserted between Sections twenty-four and twenty-five (relating respectively to deficiency in and injury to equipment and to the falsification of documents and false declarations) of the Army Act the following Section, namely:
Ill-treatment of horses.
24A. Every person subject to military law who commits any of the following offences, namely:
Wilfully, by any act or omission, ill-treats any horse in the public service, or causes any such horse to be so ill-treated, or permits any such horse of which he is in charge or has the supervision to be so ill-treated,
shall, upon conviction by court-martial, be liable to suffer imprisonment or such less punishment as is in this Act mentioned.
(2) Paragraph (5) of Section twenty-four (relating as aforesaid) of the Army Act is hereby repealed.—[ Mr. Greenwood. ]
Clause brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."
By Section 24 of the Army Act, 1881, it is provided that every soldier who commits any of certain offences is liable to certain punishment, and one of those offences is
"if a soldier ill-treats any horse used in the public service he shall be liable on conviction by court-martial to suffer imprisonment or such less punishment as is in this Act mentioned."
That is confined entirely to the soldier. The punishment is provided for by Section 44. I need not dwell upon it. I will only say that it might be imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding two years. This new Clause would extend the offence not only to officers, but to other persons who come under the definition of "every person subject to military law," which includes certain per- sons who are allowed to have passes and to accompany Armies under Section 175. I would just like to call attention to this, that as the new Clause is drawn it practically follows the wording of a recent Act, the Protection of Animals Act. The provision of that Act says, "wilfully by any act or omission, ill-treats any horse in the public service, or permits any other person so to do."
I suggest that there is no real reason why this Clause should not be extended to include officers as well as private soldiers. I do not for a moment mean to suggest that there is any idea that officers do ill-treat their horses. On the contrary, I believe they are for the most part always extremely kind to their horses, and very careful indeed in regard to them. I think one might even point to the splendid work which has been done by the Army Medical Veterinary Department, combined with the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, in aid of the horses at the front. At the same time, now that we have a very large number of horses and new officers, it is quite possible that an officer may be guilty of ill-treating horses just as the private soldier may. I do not think it can fairly be suggested that this provision should not be made to apply to officers. There is another provision in regard to punishment. In the new Clause the punishment is limited to six months' imprisonment at the outside. I think that is a very reasonable addition to the Clause as it now stands. I hope it will not be said, as I think it has been said or suggested before, that Section 40, which applies to a person subject to military law, would apply to offences of this sort. I do not think it will now be said, because I think it is very clear—and I have consulted on this matter with those who could assist me—that Section 40, which applies to offences against both good order and military discipline—purely military offences—does apply to this case. In fact, if it did, there would be no necessity to put in Subsection (5) of Section 24 in regard to this offence being committed by a soldier. No harm can possibly be done, I submit, by the War Office accepting this Amendment. On the contrary, it would put both officer and private soldier on an equality in regard to offences of this sort, and I have never heard it suggested why that should not be done.
The hon. Member has anticipated one of my arguments, and that is that Section 40 of the Act does give—
Has the right hon. Gentleman taken legal advice as to the application of that Clause, because I venture humbly to suggest that it would not apply.
I am not able to produce legal advice, but I am advised by the Department which deals with legal questions in many of the Departments of the War Office that it would be quite sufficient to deal with a case of this kind. What I want to say to this House, and to the hon. Member, is that soldiers and officers are humane men. They are not going about to ill-treat their horses. There is ample provision in the Army Act to deal with any case of the kind. There is no necessity at all for the words which the hon. Member desires to insert. I can give him a positive assurance that if any case of the maltreatment of horses were to occur by an officer it would be dealt with in the most faithful manner that he could possibly desire. I would only point out to him, further, that his proposal to punish the officer by imprisonment is an impossible procedure unless you cashier him. No officer is allowed to be imprisoned and then allowed to return to the Army as an officer. He must first be cashiered. That perfectly proper procedure is provided for by Section 40 of the Army Act for offences—"act, conduct, disorder, or neglect to the prejudice of good order and military discipline." The hon. Member says that that does not cover the maltreatment of the horses. I feel positive in my own mind, though I am not a lawyer—and the hon. Member must take it for what it is worth—that these words are quite sufficient. I promise him that there is really no reason for the words which he asks to have inserted. I do not know whether he wants a further assurance—
In regard to imprisonment, the new Clause provides that he shall be liable to suffer imprisonment, "or such less punishment" as is in this Act mentioned.
I only made that point, but it is quite a subsidiary one, that if he had to be imprisoned he would have to be cashiered first.
I cannot accept the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman as quite satisfactory. Especially would I call his attention to the fact that we have at the present time far more horses and animals than ever before. On the whole, I believe they are extremely well treated, but I have received one or two letters from people in different quarters raising some cases, and asking some questions. Though I believe, on inquiry, that they have been very well met, yet there is a good deal of anxiety in certain quarters. Let me point this out: You have large remount camps. These camps have been formed very often in great haste and under great difficulty, and there has been a certain amount of dissatisfaction—possibly not very great. One point, however, in connection with that is this: You have got a lot of rough men thrown together from all sorts of places working at these new camps. They are not in the Army. I think you ought to be able to deal with these men, as I do not think they can be under the present powers. I will not now say more than this: I believe the matter ought to be considered. There are several other questions to come up in the course of this Committee discussion. These, I dare say, the right hon. Gentleman will find it very hard to accept right away, but I should like to ask him whether he will, in connection with this and one or two other matters, consider between now and dealing with this Bill in another place, whether there is not a case for these matters to be taken up in some sort of form agreeable to the right hon. Gentleman and the War Office?
Question, "That the Clause be read a second time," put, and negatived.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Amendment of Section 48 of the Army Act with Respect to Sentences of Death.)
In paragraph (8) of Section forty-eight (relating to general and districts courts-martial) of the Army Act the word "all" shall be substituted for the words "two-thirds at the least of."—[ Mr. A. Williams. ]
Clause brought up, and read the First time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."
In the Army Act it is provided that the death sentence shall only be inflicted by a general court-martial, and that these general courts-martial shall consist of, in some cases nine, and in some cases five members. As the Act stands, the death sentence cannot be inflicted unless two- thirds at least of the Court are in favour of it being inflicted. The object of my Amendment is very simple, and it is that the death sentence should not be inflicted unless the Court is unanimous that it should be. I think we should all agree that it is a very serious thing indeed to inflict the death sentence upon any man if the Court is not unanimous in thinking that he should be put to death. Of course, under the English jury system, a man could not be sentenced to death unless he was convicted unanimously by the jury. I do not need to waste words upon this, but I do think that we ought to put in this provision that the death sentence is not to be inflicted upon a soldier unless the Court is unanimously of opinion that it should be.
The Department of the War Office which is responsible for discipline is the Adjutant-General's Department, and I can assure my hon. Friend that the manner in which this extreme penalty of the law has been administered and carried out is one with which I think no fault has been found in the past.
I did not suggest for a moment there was fault to be found.
We all have to go by experience, and I think my hon. Friend will agree that experience teaches us a great many lessons, but in this case I do not think we have any lessons to learn. A court-martial as a rule consists of nine members, and in order to pass the death sentence at least six must agree. As we know, you may have on a body of this kind a man who might be conscientiously opposed to the death penalty in every case, and it would defeat the ends of justice if you were to have such a proceeding by which one solitary dissentient could prevent the death penalty being carried out. While in ninety-nine cases out of 100, probably, there would not be such a case, and a man guilty of a grave offence, for which the death penalty is only provided, would receive the sentence, in the other case, where there was a dissentient—what you might call a conscientious objector to the death penalty ever being enforced—the man would be let off. It ought to be remembered that the death penalty is hardly ever employed in time of peace. It is only in time of war that it is necessary, and the Adjutant-General's Department is very anxious that this law should not be altered.
Question, "That the Clause be read a second time," put, and negatived.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Restriction on Discharge of Soldiers Suffering from Venereal Disease.)
90A. (1) Notwithstanding anything in the last foregoing Section (relating to soldiers who are discharged or transferred to the Reserve), no soldier of the Regular Forces shall be entitled to be discharged if, at the completion of the term of his original enlistment, or of the period of his re-engagement, he is suffering from any venereal disease; and the period of his Army service may be compulsorily prolonged until he is cured of that disease.
(2) In this Section the expression "venereal disease" means syphilis, gonorrhœa, or soft chancre in any infectious or contagious stage.
Clause brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."
9.0 P.M.
Amongst the various Amendments which there are on the Paper, this is, in my opinion, far and away the most serious and important, and it is serious and important especially for this reason, that unless we deal with this question promptly it will give rise to a position far more dangerous than the question has ever given rise to before. Great wars have always been signalised at their close by terrible outbreaks of venereal disease. The ravages of venereal disease are always far more devastating and serious after a great war than at any other time. We are approaching inevitably a time, after the end of the War, when all the great countries of Europe will be devastated in many ways, especially as regards the lives of the strongest, healthiest, and best of men, and one of the inevitable results, unless we deal with this subject bravely, firmly, strongly, and openly before the end of the War, will be that there will be a spread of venereal disease such as there has never been before in history. It is a fortunate thing that we have had a recent Report on this very subject, and from questions which I have asked in the House it is apparent that the Government in the various Departments concerned are giving, quite rightly, this matter very earnest attention. The Report has only recently come out, and obviously, under the very great pressure and strain of work which, of course, devolves on all Departments at the present time, it would be unreasonable to ask them to come to a decision or to take action very rapidly, and I feel that I cannot press my right hon. Friend to say at once that some change may be made in the Army Act. That would be unreasonable, but I must indicate that a very easy step in dealing with the serious question may be taken by doing what this Clause suggests, namely, restricting the discharge of soldiers suffering from venereal disease, and practically saying that a soldier shall not take his discharge if suffering from one of these diseases until he is cured, or the disease has got out of the contagious stage. The Report of the Royal Commission, on page 53, paragraph 186, says:
I am sure we all sympathise with the cause which my hon. Friend has at heart. I only hope that he is rather gloomy in his foreboding as to what will happen after the War is over. I may say that we have taken some steps to secure the end at which my hon. Friend aims. Before I deal with that I should like to call attention to the fact that the hon. Member's Clause is very definite and it states that "no soldier of the Regular Forces shall be entitled to be discharged." That does not leave any option, whereas the Royal Commission recommends that a man should be encouraged in his own interest to continue the treatment. They also say that he should be detained. We have issued the following Army Order, which was issued in March, 1914:
"When a soldier is transferred to the Army Reserve or discharged from the Army while undergoing treatment for syphilis, arrangements will be made for continuing his treatment at the military station nearest to his intended place of residence, if he is desirous of availing himself of the facilities offered at the station for such treatment, but no expense for maintenance or travelling will be admitted as a charge against the public. The foregoing conditions and the advantages of, continuing his treatment will be carefully explained to the soldier, and he will be directed to report himself in writing to the officer i/c of the military hospital at the station in question, and to await instructions regarding his attendance for treatment. The necessary particulars as to the further treatment, tests, etc., required in the case will be forwarded to the officer i/c of the military hospital."
What I want to point out is that we have made this arrangement by which the man is so invited that it will be difficult for him to refuse, and although no charge from the public funds is allowed for the actual transference for the man or for his keep, the treatment is given free. Treatment which involves drugs of an expensive nature is given free. I hope this will satisfy my hon. Friend that we have really the desire to safeguard the public and cure the man, and I think that is expressed in the Army Order to which I have just referred.
I should like to thank the right hon. Gentleman for what he says, although I wish he had said something more, in the direction that further consideration and action might be expected to follow on the Report of the Royal Commission. He has stated what provisions were taken two years ago, in March, 1914, but I think we have a right to say that the War Office Administration ought not to be really content, in view of this Royal Commission, with calling our attention to what steps were actually taken two years ago. This is a very large question, but I would like to mention that science is now giving increased attention to this question, and I am told privately that the Pasteur Institute at Paris has just produced a new treatment, very similar to the famous "606," which is very satisfactory. That will probably be available at a cheaper rate, and I am told that in some respects in the later stages of the disease it is claimed to be a more effective remedy than "606." I mention this to show that scientific investigation, even at this very time, when it is necessarily restricted and hampered, is proceeding in Paris upon these lines.
Question, "That the Clause be read a second time," put, and negatived.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Amendment of Provisions of Army Act Relating to the Liability of a Soldier to Maintain his Wife and Children, etc.)
(1) For Section one hundred and forty-five (relating to the liability of a soldier to maintain his wife and children) of the Army Act, as subsequently amended, the following Section shall be substituted, namely:
Liability of soldier to maintain wife and children, etc.
145 (1). A soldier of the regular forces shall be liable to contribute to the same extent as if he were not a soldier to the maintenance of—
(a) his wife; and
(b) any child or children for whose maintenance he would, if he were not a soldier, be legally liable under any law for the time being in force; and
(c) any bastard child or children of whom he admits that he is, or of whom he is proved to be, the putative father:
Provided that—
(i) execution in respect of any such liability, or of any order or decree in respect of such maintenance, shall not issue against his person, pay, arms, ammunition, equipments, instruments, regimental necessaries, or clothing; and
(b) he shall not be liable to be punished for the offence of deserting or neglecting to maintain his wife or family, or any member thereof, or of leaving her or them chargeable to any union, parish, or place.
(2) When any order or decree is made under any Act, whether passed before or passed after the commencement of this Act, or at common law for payment by a man who is for the time being a soldier of the regular forces with respect to either—
(a) the maintenance of his wife; or
(b) the maintenance of any child or children with respect to whom he is liable as aforesaid; or
(c) the maintenance of any bastard child or children as aforesaid; or
(d) the cost of any relief given to his wife, child, or children by way of loan;
a copy of such order or decree shall be sent to the Army Council, or any officer deputed by them for the purpose, and in the case—
(i) of such order or decree being so sent; or
(ii) of it being made to appear to the satisfaction of the Army Council, or any officer deputed by them for the purpose, that a soldier of the regular forces has deserted or left in destitute circumstances, without reasonable cause, his wife or any child or children for whose maintenance he would, if he were not a soldier, be legally liable under any law for the time being in force; or
(iii) of it being made to appear to the satisfaction of the Army Council, or any officer deputed by them for the purpose, that a soldier of the regular forces is the putative father of any bastard child or children in respect of whom an affiliation order might be made;
the Army Council or officer shall order the prescribed amount to be deducted from the daily pay of the soldier, and to be appropriated in satisfaction of the sum adjudged to be paid by such order or decree, or towards the maintenance of such wife, child, or children, or towards the maintenance of such bastard child or children, as the case may be.
Where an order has been made under paragraph (iii) of this Sub-section and the man ceases to be a soldier of the regular forces such order shall be deemed to be an affiliation order, and may be enforced, amended, revoked, or revived, in all respects as though it were such an order made by a petty sessional court, acting for the city, borough, petty sessional or other division or district in which the complainant at the time resided, under the enactments relating to bastardy.
(3) Where a proceeding is instituted against a soldier of the regular forces under any Act, whether passed before or passed after the commencement of this Act, or at common law, for the purpose of enforcing against him any such liability as is in the foregoing provisions of this Section mentioned, and such soldier is quartered out of the jurisdic- of the court, or, if the proceeding is before a court of summary jurisdiction, out of the petty sessional division in which the proceeding is instituted, the process shall be served upon the commanding officer of the soldier, and if the soldier, upon being asked by his commanding officer whether he admits the truth of the complaint, denies the truth of the complaint, such service shall not be valid unless or until there be also left in the hands of that officer a sum of money sufficient to enable the soldier to attend the hearing of the case and return to his quarters, and such sum may be expended by that officer for that purpose.
Provided that where, upon the hearing of the case, any order or decree is made against the soldier, any sum of money paid to his commanding officer under this Sub-section shall be repaid by the Army Council to the person by when the proceedings were instituted, or any other person authorised by that person to receive the same.
The amount so repaid shall be a public debt due from the soldier and, without prejudice to any other mode of recovery, may be recovered by deductions at the prescribed intervals from his pay, such deductions to be additional to the other deductions made under this Section.
Provided further that if a soldier, having denied to his commanding officer the truth of any such complaint as aforesaid, subsequently admits to that officer the truth of the complaint (such admission being before the commencement of the hearing of the case), he shall for the purposes of this Sub-section be deemed not to have denied the truth of the complaint on being asked as aforesaid; and in that case any sum of money which may have been left with the commanding officer as required by this Sub-section shall be returned by him to the person by whom it was left.
(4) No process under any Act, whether passed before or passed after this Act, or at common law, in any proceeding in the foregoing provisions of this Section mentioned shall be valid against a soldier of the regular forces if served after such soldier is under orders for active service beyond the seas.
Provided that in calculating any period of time within which any such proceeding must be taken against a soldier of the regular forces, pursuant to the enactments relating to bastardy or the Summary Jurisdiction (Married Women) Act, 1885, no account shall be taken of the time during which the soldier is on such service or under orders therefor.
(5) The Army Council may prescribe whatever in this Section is to be prescribed, and may make such other rules as they may deem necessary or desirable for carrying this Section into effect; and the power to prescribe the amount to be deducted from the pay of a soldier shall include power to prescribe different amounts in different cases and from time to time in the same case.
Rules made under this Sub-section shall be laid before Parliament and published in the "London Gazette" as soon as may be after they are made.
(6) The provisions of this Section shall, with any necessary adaptations and modifications, apply to a person who becomes a soldier of the regular forces after the commencement of this Act and against whom any such decree or order as is mentioned in Sub-section (2) of this Section is in force at the time of his so becoming such a soldier, or with respect to whom it is made to appear as set out in paragraphs (ii) or (iii) of that Section, in the same way as they apply to a person who is a soldier of the regular forces at the commencement of this Act.
(7) In the application of this Section to Scotland and Ireland, paragraph (iii) of Sub-section (2) and the proviso to Sub-section (4) shall not apply.
(2) For the purposes of the Section thus substituted it shall be immaterial whether the order or decree was made, or the cause of complaint arose, or the birth of a child took place, or the marriage was celebrated, before or after the passing of this Act.
(3) If any difficulty or question arises in connection with the transition from the provisions of the Section for which the Section above set out is substituted to the provisions of the Section above set out, such difficulty may be determined or question settled, as the case may be, by the Army Council, and their determination or settlement, as the case may be, shall be final.—[ Mr. King. ]
Clause brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move "That the Clause be read a second time."
I will very briefly explain to the Committee the position. When a soldier is made liable for the support of his children or wife or bastard children, or any other dependants, there are two ways in which proceedings may be taken against him. They may be taken against him in a Police Court or by going to the commanding officer under whom he is serving, but in the case of bastard children the proceedings cannot be taken direct by going to the commanding officer, but only by going to the Police Court. That is a very undesirable thing from a point of view of expense and other reasons, and one of the alterations which my Clause would affect is that where a soldier is liable, or alleged to be liable, for the support of a bastard child, the procedure might be to go direct, as in the case of other dependants, to the commanding officer. There are obvious reasons why that is the best course. My new Clause proposes for the first time in Army legislation an idea which I have brought in previous years before the House, that where a soldier is liable for payments to dependants the rate at which deductions shall be made shall not be a fixed rate—so much for an ordinary private, so much for a non-commissioned officer, and so much for a warrant officer, as under the existing law—but that the commanding officer should prescribe a sum which would be payable in each individual case. The reason will be understood, because the pay of the soldier varies very much. A private may only be entitled to a few pence per day, say, a shilling, but if he is also an officer's servant, or is drawing efficiency pay, or is entitled to draw other payments, he may be receiving a sum considerably more than that. The commanding officer knows these circumstances, and it is obviously a just and fair suggestion that in each case where a payment has to be made by a soldier in respect of dependants the sum shall not be a fixed sum, but shall be such a sum as may be prescribed by the commanding officer, who has all the circumstances of the case before him.
I know that this is a large question and that my Amendment is an extremely long one, but it is drawn by draftsmen who are confident that it has been drawn in such a way as to bring in all the points which arise under the law as it is with the addition of the two points which I have put forward. I know that it is too much to ask the representatives of the War Office to accept the Amendment, but I should, at any rate, like an expression of some sympathy with the object I have in view. If they will state, for instance, that before the Bill goes to another place this will be fairly considered with a possible view to its being inserted there or in next year's Bill, I shall be quite content. I believe this Amendment, again, is an important one at the present time. When you come to demobilise the Army at the end of the War it will be a very slow and gradual process. You will have in the Army a great number of newly-married men. Everybody knows that hundreds and hundreds of our soldiers have been married in great haste—I hope it will not be to repent at leisure—and there certainly will arise a considerable number of cases, I hope not large relatively to the Army which we have, in which marriages have turned out more or less unhappy, and in which there will be claims for payments from the men to those whom they have left without provision. This question, before the War ends, or immediately the War ends, ought to be reconsidered so as to place it on the best possible lines.
My hon. and learned Friend was good enough to speak to me privately about this Clause before we reached the Bill, and I was able to assure him that I approached the matter with full sympathy for the object which he has in view, which is that there should be given to commanding officers and to the Army Council a wider discretion, than they have now. My hon. and learned Friend for some years has taken a great and I am quite sure a very real interest in matters which are dealt with in the Clause which he has submitted to the House. I only wish to assure him that I am convinced that he is very genuine in the views which he has expressed in his Amendment. I am bound to say that if we were living in normal times there would be a very great deal to be said in favour of the change which he suggests, but we are not living in normal times. We are living in times when we have enlisted under the known provisions of the Army Act millions of men. I think I can promise my hon. and learned Friend that between to-night and the time when this Bill is considered in another place I will give very close attention to the matter which he has brought before the House, but it is only right to tell him quite frankly that while I am willing to look into it, and while personally I consider it might be a desirable change to make in normal times, I am still reluctant to contemplate any material change in the provisions of the Army Act at the present time. Of course, if any change were proved to be essential from the military point of view, then I should not hesitate for a moment to make it, but in regard to changes of an administrative character which would involve the preparation and issue of countless new forms and the creation of a new procedure, I would really ask my hon. and learned Friend not to press me too strongly, but to be content for the moment with the sympathetic assurance I have given him that it will have close consideration.
After the sympathetic, intelligent, and understanding way in which this new Clause has been met, I beg leave to withdraw it.
Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
Bill reported without Amendment, read the third time, and passed.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Whereupon Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 22nd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-three minutes after Nine o'clock.