House of Commons
Thursday, March 30, 1916
Private Business
Aberdeen Corporation Water Order Confirmation Bill,
Consideration of Lords Amendments deferred till Tuesday next.
Supreme Court (Prize, Etc. Deposit Account, 1914–15)
Return presented relative thereto [ordered 29th March; Mr. Montagu ]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 48.]
Government Insurances and Annuities
Account presented of all Moneys received on account of Contracts for the grant of Deferred Life Annuities and for Payments on Death and of the disposal thereof and of the Contracts made during the year 1915 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 49.]
Shops Act, 1912
Copy presented of Closing Order made by the urban district council of Queenstown [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Oral Answers to Questions
War
Belgium (Relief Measures)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government propose to make use of German shipping for the Belgian relief; if so. whether this is to be done with the advice of the Admiralty; and for how long the Government propose to continue to feed the Belgian population, which ought to be fed by Germany?
His Majesty's Government have decided to allow the Commisson for Relief in Belgium to charter German ships in neutral ports through a Dutch Company on certain strict conditions which should ensure against any appreciable benefit accruing to the enemy. This decision has been taken in consultation with our Allies and on the advice of the Shipping Control Committee. His Majesty's Government intend to continue the facilities hitherto afforded to the Relief Commission so long as that Commission maintains and enforces proper arrangements with the German authorities.
Has this been done by the advice of the Admiralty?
It is the decision of the whole Government.
Persia (British Community)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, considering the ill-treatment that the British Consul, superintendent of telegraphs, bank manager, and other members of the British community at Shiraz are being subjected to while held prisoners at Ahram, in Persia, by German emissaries, he will now inform the German Government that unless these British prisoners are released and conducted safely to Bushire within one month from this date the British Government will, as a measure of retaliation, order the German Consul, postmaster, bank manager, and other German residents in the British Concession of Shameen, in China, to immediately leave that place, in which case the British Consul, whose official residence is understood to have recently collapsed, would be installed in the vacated premises?
I have nothing to add to the answer which was given to the hon. Member on 9th December and the hon. Member for Wirrall on 7th December, but I may inform my hon. and gallant Friend that the German Consul at Salonika, who was deported from that town, has been detained by the French Government at our request pending the release of the British Consul at Shiraz.
Foreign Press
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) whether Mr. Masterman's campaign of manipulating the Press of Foreign countries in the interest of England is under the control of the Foreign Office or only assisted by British representatives abroad; whether he has intervened in any of the instances in which that campaign miscarried and became a subject of public ridicule; whether any of the expenses of that campaign are to be comprised in the Foreign Office Vote; and (2) whether he will make available to Members of this House a copy of the account of the forcible suppression of newspapers in Dublin by the military sent or to be sent by Mr. Masterman to the Foreign newspapers subsidised through him, with a list of the newspapers and the places in which they are published?
These questions are founded largely on suggestions which are untrue, and are in themselves wholly mischievous. I must, therefore, beg respectfully to decline to answer them.
Does the Noble Lord deny that Mr. Masterman is engaged as described in the question?
Enemy Atrocities
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the persistence of atrocities at the hands of the enemy, of the need of finding some deterrent, and of the certainty that terms of peace will be dictated by the Allies, he will take into consideration the advisability of issuing a joint declaration to the effect that no peace will be concluded until those responsible, in whatever rank or station, are dealt with by a tribunal set up for the purpose of determining culpability?
I am not prepared, without previous consultation with the Allied Governments, to express any opinion on the hon. Member's proposal. My right hon. Friend will consider the suggestions made by the hon. and gallant Member, but it is obvious that it would be improper for me to express any opinion at present.
Defence of the Realm Act
Deportation Orders (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland (1) what the alleged offence is for which Mr. Ernest Blythe has been arrested and ordered to leave Ireland; who was the witness; what was the evidence; whether the sentence of transportation is to be enforced without trial; and (2) what the alleged offence is for which Mr. William Mellowes has been arrested and ordered to leave Ireland, who was the witness, and what was the evidence; and whether the sentence of transportation is to be enforced without trial?
Blythe and Mellowes have been arrested for disobedience of an Order made by the competent military authority for Ireland, under Regulation 14 of the Defence of the Realm Regulations, prohibiting them from residing in that area. For months now last past both these men have been busily and actively engaged in travelling about districts in Ireland organising meetings and other propaganda for the purpose of the promotion of sedition and anti-recruiting. The Order was made by the competent military authority, in pursuance of the powers vested in him by this Regulation in the case of persons suspected of acting, or of being about to act in a manner prejudicial to the public safety or the defence of the realm. All the proceedings required by the Regulations have been taken and complied with.
The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the question—what is the alleged offence, or whether there is any offence but that stated in public newspapers by certain Members of this House?
No, Sir, there is no occasion for me to state the nature of the offence, although I have indicated it in the reply I have given.
Will the allegation against those two men be subjected to trial?
No, Sir.
Why?
Newspaper Seizure, Dublin
asked the Chief Secretary if he will specify the alleged illegality or untruth for which four newspapers in Dublin have been forcibly suppressed and essential parts of their mechanism and other property seized and carried off without statement of cause; what law is held to authorise this procedure; whether all those papers denounced the taxation of Ireland which, when half what it now is, a Royal Commission condemned as excessive; whether the alleged offence was common to them all; whether it was more than an expression of political opinion; will he say what is the authority for this action in Ireland and, if the law was supposed to have been violated, why were not those responsible tried legally; why the Dublin Press has not been allowed to publish any statement of the facts but that supplied by the aggressors; and whether the unoffending papers seized and the documents essential to carrying on the business connected with them will be immediately restored?
The action referred to in the question was taken by the competent military authority under the Defence of the Realm Regulations for the most flagrant offences against these Regulations. If anyone is in doubt about the propriety of this military action he has only to read recent numbers of "The Gael," "The Spark," and "Honesty," and his doubts will disappear. The question of overtaxation of Ireland has nothing whatever to do with the action of the military authorities, nor were any of the articles relating to that subject even considered. So far as I am aware, the Dublin Press published a full and accurate account of the occurrence.
If those papers have so notoriously violated the law, why have they not been put on trial?
We are living in a state of war, and these Regulations enable us to act with promptitude.
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the part of the question with reference to unoffending papers seized at the same time?
I do not know that there are any of those. If the police authorities have taken possession of any unoffending matter, I have no doubt they will do their best to restore it.
After all, would it not be better to allow free play of opinion in Ireland?
There is a great deal of free play of opinion in Ireland.
Will the right hon. Gentleman inform the (House whether the offence of these papers consisted in nothing but differing in political opinion from him and his party?
No, Sir, that has nothing whatever to do with it.
Mr. GINNELL rose—
The hon. Member must put any further questions down.
On a point of Order. I desire to ask a part of the question which the right hon. Gentleman has not answered, namely, whether all these papers have condemned the taxation of Ireland?
I really cannot answer that question. If they have that is not the reason why they have been condemned.
Questions
Lighting of Fire (Burnfoot, County Donegal)
asked the Attorney-General for Ireland whether his attention has been called to the case at Burnfoot Petty Sessions, county Donegal, in which William Marshall, of Inch, has been fined £5 for the burning of furze bushes on his land by boys whom Mr. Marshall tried to prevent; whether in this case of an offence from its nature widely visible any evidence was produced but that of two policemen too remote to distinguish whether Mr. Marshall was preventing or encouraging; and whether, having regard to Mr. Marshall's character, the fine will be remitted?
William Marshall was convicted and fined £5 at Burnfoot Petty Sessions on the 17th instant for having lighted a fire in a place and manner contrary to the provisions of No. 26 of the Defence of the Realm Regulations. The police who gave evidence in the case were in immediate proximity to the fires and saw Marshall himself light them with the assistance of some boys. In reply to an inquiry by the police, he stated that he had no authority for this action. There has been no appeal from the conviction, and I have no power to remit the fine, which appears to have been fully justified.
Irish Imports and Exports
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) when the Report on Irish imports and exports for 1914 will be published?
The Department expect that the Report in question will be available next week.
Munitions
Manufacture in Ireland
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether steps will be taken to secure greater publicity, in the interest of wider knowledge of Ireland's capacity for undertaking the making of explosives and other munitions from local raw material, for Professor Morgan's article on Chemistry, the War, and Ireland in the current issue of Studies; and whether he will consider favourably its publication by the Department as a separate leaflet or in the journal of the Department?
The Department will consider the question of further publicity for this and other information as to Irish raw materials and their relation to munitions of war.
Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)
asked the Minister of Munitions if he has received any information showing that people who used to be content with sixpennyworth of whisky now have a bottle in the house and do not go to work on Monday; and if he will advise a return to the former custom of retailing small quantities?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to him on this subject on the 28th instant, to which I have nothing to add.
asked the Minister of Munitions if he can see his way to recommend the Liquor Control Board to issue for exhibition in licensed premises and clubs a condensed form of the Regulations, having regard to the size of the present printed Order, which has been described by the Croydon justices as cumbersome?
I am informed that this question has been under con- sideration, but that it has not at present been thought advisable to issue a condensed form of the Regulations.
asked the Minister of Munitions (1) whether there is any evidence of excessive drinking or delay to munitions or military movements due to the delivery of light beer to private houses by the vans of family brewers; and (2) if it was the intention of the Government that the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) should put every possible difficulty in the way of the ordinary householder who desired to have in his own house reasonable supplies of light beer for consumption with his meals; whether representations will be made to the Board that such action is quite unnecessary; what evidence of drunkenness is there from that cause; and will he consider the desirability of rescinding the restrictions which have already been placed on family trade brewers?
The Board have found it necessary, owing to representations made to them, to increase the stringency of their restrictions as regards distribution of liquor, and, although certain inconvenience may result to the family brewer, the considerations which made the further restrictions necessary are, in the view of the Board, of paramount importance.
Are the intoxicating effects of beer carried round in vans less than those of beer served over the counter?
Conditions and Hours of Labour
asked the Minister of Munitions whether it is with his sanction that Messrs. Vickers, Limited, have notified their intention of substituting two twelve-hour shifts for the former three-eight-hour shifts, an addition of twenty-four hours to the working week; if this is in conflict with the policy recommended by the Health of Munition Workers' Committee; and whether he is aware that, although representations have been made against the change by the National Federation of Women Workers, the firm have refused to postpone it until reference can be made to arbitration under Part I. of the Munitions of War Act?
As regards the first and second part of the question I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given yesterday on the same subject to the hon. Member for Plymouth. I may point out that the suggestion made in the question that the change involves the increase of twenty-four hours in the working week is entirely incorrect. The actual effect was given in my answer yesterday. As regards the last part of the question the answer is in the affirmative.
Who recommended the change?
I cannot say who was primarily responsible, but there was a good deal of discussion, and we allowed this as an experiment with a view to allowing them a whole Sunday off.
Is the hon. Member aware that, arising out of this change, about forty of the women concerned have asked for certificates of discharge? Is he prepared to see that the matter is submitted to fair and speedy arbitration?
I was not aware of that, and, as I said yesterday, I will have inquiry made.
asked the Minister of Munitions, in view of the fact that the Health of Munitions Workers' Committee has reported that if the present long hours of work are allowed to continue it will not be possible to secure or maintain for an extended period the maximum output of which women are capable, and that the eight-hours shift appears to give the best results in the long run, in what number of munitions factories have steps been taken to introduce the eight-hours, shift for women?
The Ministry is giving careful attention to the hours being worked by women, and has set up a Committee which is taking vigorous action to reduce hours which are excessive. The policy of the Ministry is to substitute eight-hour shifts for longer ones as recommended by the Committee, wherever the exigencies of the case admit, unless special circumstances render other arrangements preferable in the interests of the workers. Energetic measures have been and are being taken to carry this policy into effect, but the information at present available does not enable me to state the precise number of factories in which women are working eight-hour shifts.
What steps has the Minister of Munitions taken to abolish seven-day labour?
I have answered a great many questions on that subject during recent weeks; perhaps the Noble Lord will refer to those replies.
asked what steps, if any, have been taken to carry out the recommendation of the Committee on the Health of Munitions Workers that a suitable system of welfare supervision should be established in munitions works where 500 adult males or 100 boys are employed?
The Welfare Department of the Ministry of Munitions has hitherto-been mainly concerned with supervision in the case of factories employing women and girls. The Department now has under consideration the question of introducing welfare supervision in factories employing as many as 100 boys. So far no actions has been taken in the case of factories where only adult men are employed.
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware that the Health of Munitions Workers Committee has recommended, in view of the increase of industrial disease and accidents in controlled establishments, that a sickness register should be kept, that provision should be made for the medical examination of all workers on their admission to the factory, that one or more trained nurses should be appointed, that a committee of workers should be entrusted with the duty of investigating every accident which occurs-in their own workplace, that local dressing stations should be established in each workplace for minor injuries and a central dressing station for more serious cases, and that provision for organised medical treatment should be made in every munitions factory; and what steps have been taken to carry out the recommendations of the Committee?
My right hon. Friend is about to issue to controlled establishments a circular containing a summary of the recommendations made in this and two other Reports recently received from the Committee. Active steps are also being taken by specially appointed officers of the Ministry to bring home to employers in certain factories the need for action on the lines recommended by the Committee.
Will the circular contain a recommendation for eight-hour shifts?
Yes; the circular will contain recommendations on the lines recommended by the Health Committee. I can assure the hon. Member that we have lost no time whatever in giving effect to them as far as we are able.
Women's Demonstration (Westminster)
asked the Minister of Munitions, seeing that at the time of the women's procession organised by him and Mrs. Pankhurst there were on the register of women war workers the names and addresses of 75,000 women who had not up to that time been given work to do, if he will say how many of these were employed on munition work one month later; and will he explain why it was deemed necessary to spend £3,000 of public money on a procession to stimulate women to work at a time when so many women were reluctantly idle?
I am informed by the Board of Trade that over 90,000 women were on the War Service Register at the date in question, but only a comparatively small proportion were available for munition work, nor can it be assumed that all these women were idle. As regards the latter part of the question, the demonstration was part of a campaign both to encourage women to take part in munition work and to promote their employment by showing the readiness of women to come forward. The object of this campaign was not mainly directed to the demand for such workers actually existing at the time of the procession or a month later.
Is not my hon. Friend aware that any recommendation from Mrs. Pankhurst will discourage many women from coming forward?
All I can say is that it was a very successful procession, and it seems to have had good results.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether at the time of the procession and demonstration organised by Mrs. Pankhurst on 17th July, for which public money was paid, there were already 75,000 women enrolled on the Special War Register for whom no employment had been found; whether Mrs. Pankhurst was given access to the Labour Exchange Registers for War Service for Women, in order that she might circularise the women waiting for work and induce them to walk in her procession; whether Mrs. Pankhurst at that time was recognised as a Government agent or official; and, if not, by whose authority Government documents of a confidential character were open to the inspection of a private individual using them for her personal purposes?
The number of women whose names were on the Special War Register on 16th July last was 90,855, but a comparatively small proportion of these women were available for munitions work. Through a misunderstanding the names and addresses of a certain number of women who had registered as War Work Volunteers were furnished to the organisers of the procession referred to. As soon as my attention was called to the matter the permission was withdrawn.
Ministry of Munitions (Supply Department)
asked for what purposes the new priority branch of the Ministry of Munitions has been established; who are the heads of this branch of the Department; and what are their qualifications for the duties which they are called upon to undertake?
No new priority branch of the Ministry of Munitions has been established, as is suggested in the question. A priority branch has been in existence in the Supply Department since September, 1915, for the purpose of coordinating work of various sections of the Ministry with reference to certain questions that arise from day to day. The head of this branch is Mr. George M. Booth. A Priority Committee attached to the Labour Supply Department has also been established since January of this year. The head of this Department is Mr. C. F. Rey. Both gentlemen have held high and responsible positions in the Ministry of Munitions since its formation.
Have any protests against these restrictions been received, except from those interested in pushing the sale of drink?
No, I do not think so. I cannot recall any.
Questions
Cameroons (Trade in Spirits)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Government of Nigeria have granted permission to traders of the Colony to open trading stations in the Cameroons; whether it is the intention of the Government to allow them to trade in spirits; and whether British ships will be used to carry the spirits out to West Africa?
I am not aware of any action taken or proposed by the Government of Nigeria in this matter, and the arrangements for the provisional administration of such portion of the Cameroons as may come under British control are not yet completed. The question of the importation of spirits is under consideration.
Does my hon. Friend not consider it desirable to prohibit this trade during the War, owing to the present scarcity of tonnage?
I think if my hon. Friend will look into the matter he will find that the scarcity of tonnage is principally in cargoes from West Africa, and not in cargoes to West Africa.
Admiralty Photographs
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, under the Defence of the Realm Regulations, the Admiralty is permitted, without the consent of the War Office, to have photographs taken of buildings being erected for the Admiralty; if not, whether recently it took five weeks to secure such permission from the War Office, the photographs being needed to enable the Admiralty to have a weekly photographic report of what progress had been made; and whether he is taking any steps to secure full liberty of action to his Department?
The suggestion in the question that the War Office was responsible for delay is without foundation. There was no delay whatever in taking the photographs. Certain formalities as to permission had to be fulfilled, for the protection, of course, of the photographer himself. It may very well be that in this case—one of the first cases, if not the first, of obtaining permission of this character—some little time may have elapsed before the matter was finally completed. But I repeat that there was no delay whatever in taking the necessary photographs.
Is it not a fact that five weeks' delay took place, and is the Admiralty not sufficiently responsible to decide what photographs should be taken, or must they always go to the War Office for permission? Surely that is absurd.
The War Office is not responsible for the delay. There was no delay in taking the photographs, which were proceeded with and the formalities complied with.
Can the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the question: Is he taking any steps to secure full liberty of action for his Department and not be going on his knees to the War Office?
We are not going on our knees to anyone. I do not think there is any need for any action. The photographs are taken forthwith, and whatever formalities are required under the Defence of the Realm Act are satisfied.
Military Service
Conscientious Objectors
asked the President of the Local Government Board what action it is proposed to take in cases where applicants for exemption from the Military Service Act, 1916, on conscience grounds have had total exemption refused solely because the tribunals were under the erroneous impression that the Act did not give power to grant total exemption?
My right hon. Friend referred to this matter in a circular he addressed to tribunals last week, and he has also had the opportunity of addressing a large number of chairmen, of Appeal Tribunals on the subject.
asked whether, at Shoreham, or elsewhere, there have been any cases of hunger-striking by men who have been compelled to join the Army in spite of conscientious objections; and, if so, whether he will state what policy the authorities have pursued regarding these cases?
Neither at Shoreham nor elsewhere have any cases such as are mentioned in the question occurred so far as the information at my disposal goes.
Remount Department (Exemptions)
asked the President of the Local Government Board if he is aware that exemption is being granted to single men of military age who are employed in the Remount Department or by race-horse trainers and others who have undertaken the care of horses for the Government; and whether, in view of the fact that this work could be equally well done by married men or men above military age, he will issue an instruction to local tribunals that such employment is not sufficient ground for exemption?
I am aware that some civilians of military age and fit for active service are being employed in remount depots. I am also aware that steps are being taken to keep this number as low as possible and that the handling of rough horses cannot be done entirely by old men. As regards race-horse trainers, I would ask the hon. Member to furnish me with specific information.
Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to say that a man of forty-five or fifty is not capable of managing a horse?
That depends on the man and on the horse!
Pembrokeshire Appeal Tribunal
asked if any Welsh-speaking Welshmen have been added to the Appeal Tribunal for the county of Pembroke?
My right hon. Friend is informed that the tribunal recently heard fifty-nine appeals from the centre of the Welsh-speaking part of the population, and that in only one case were the services of the interpreter required, no difficulty of any sort being experienced. In the circumstances, he is not proposing to take steps in the direction suggested.
I beg to give notice that I will, on the Adjournment, call attention to this matter.
Local Tribunals
asked the President of the Local Government Board if his attention has been called to the fact that the Haverfordwest Rural District Local Tribunal has held all its sittings in private; and whether he has made representations suggesting that this should not be the normal practice of this tribunal?
My right hon. Friend has informed the local tribunal that their proceedings should, as a rule, be conducted in public.
Central Appeal Tribunal
asked the President of the Local Government Board how many cases have been adjudged by the local tribunals under the Military Service Act, 1916, and how many remain for adjudication; how many appeals have been taken to the Appeal Tribunals by aggrieved persons and how many by permission of the Army Council; how many of these appeals have been decided, stating the results as to confirmation or reversal; how many appeals have been taken from the Appeal Tribunal by its leave to the Central Tribunal, if any; and what progress has been made in the Central Tribunal in disposal of such appeals?
My right hon. Friend has not at present statistics available, and while the tribunals are so busy he is reluctant to call upon them for returns, but he hopes later to obtain figures showing what the tribunals have done.
Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House whether appeals are now pending from the local tribunals to the Appeal Tribunals, and whether there have been actual appeals brought by the latter body to the Central Tribunal, in order that we may know the state of progresion in this matter?
I can answer in the affirmative to that, but I cannot give numbers.
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether, in view of the number of cases in which the Appeal Tribunals have refused to grant leave for appeal to the Central Tribunal, he will issue recommendations to the Appeal Tribunals advising them upon what principles they should proceed in the granting and withholding of such appeals to conscientious objectors who have been granted by the local tribunal exemption from combatant service, and whose appeal to the Appeal Tribunal has been refused?
In a circular which has been issued to members of Appeal Tribunals it was stated that, "It is intended that the cases to be passed on to the Central Tribunal should be those involving an important question of principle which has not yet been decided by the Central Tribunal, and cases in which there are special reasons why the party desirous of appealing should be allowed to obtain a decision from the Central Tribunal." My right hon. Friend also referred to this matter at a conference which he recently had with the chairmen of Appeal Tribunals He does not think it necessary at present to issue any further recommendations.
Would not a difference of opinion between the local tribunal and the Appeal Tribunal justify a further appeal?
I should think that that will have to be decided in each particular instance.
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that the Military Service Tribunal of Chorley was only provided with three copies of the Regulations, which arrived only on the morning of the first hearing of cases; that the clerk, being inevitably unable to master the Regulations, instructed the tribunal wrongly on several points; that a sense of injustice prevails both in the minds of applicants and among the public generally; and whether he will order a rehearing of the cases heard by the Chorley Tribunal?
My right hon. Friend is communicating with the local tribunal with regard to the hon. Member's question.
Soldiers (Civil Liabilities)
asked the Prime Minister when the promised proposals of the Government dealing with the civil liabilities of men called up for service will be announced?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the announcement made yesterday by my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board.
When will an opportunity for discussing these proposals be given?
I am not in a position to make a statement on that point.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether legislation will be required for all the proposals or for only some of them?
Well, I understand that legislation will not be required except for the Courts (Emergency Powers) Act.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make quite sure that the Committees are able to do this work in addition to the pensions work which is taking up so much of their time?
I think my hon. Friend had better put that question to the President of the Local Government Board.
Police Arrests (Brentford)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the report of proceedings in the Brentford Police Court on the 13th instant, when it appeared that several young men had been arrested by the police and locked up in the cells on Sunday and Monday night, bail being refused; whether two of these cases were under appeal to the Middlesex Tribunal; whether one of the others had made three applications to the Ealing recruiting office to know where he was to join and was told not to worry as he would have notice; whether the magistrates described the proceedings as disgraceful and said that the men had the sympathy of the Court; and whether he will take steps to see that this kind of conduct is not repeated by the military authorities?
Yes, Sir. My attention has been called to the cases in question and I find that the information given to the hon. Member does not correctly represent the facts.
In two of the cases, those of Le Pla and Hawkins, the petitions had been rejected some time before the date on which the men had been reported as absentees. Both men had received a semi-official letter reminding them of their duty, of which they took no notice, and in each case the men, having been arrested by the police and released on bail, admitted the case against them before being sent off to join as recruits. In each case the magistrate dismissed the case when it came before him.
In the third case, that of Lewis, a petition was refused by the Finsbury Tribunal on 26th January, and he was called up for service on 18th February. Lewis made a second appeal to the Ealing Tribunal, which was heard and dismissed on 15th February. Having made these two successive appeals to the local tribunal he made a third appeal to the Central Tribunal on 17th February. Although notice of this fact was sent to the recruiting officer, it was accidentally overlooked, and on 25tta February Lewis was notified as an absentee. After having been arrested by the police he was released on bail, when he proceeded to the recruiting office and asked for the case to be withdrawn, and the magistrates discharged him until the result of the third appeal was known. I understand that he has now joined for duty.
In the fourth case, that of Harber, the appeal was dismissed on 31st January. The man having been warned for service for 8th February, he was notified as an absentee on 25th February. The second appeal was apparently made either by the man or by his employer, but no proof of an appeal to the Central Tribunal was produced in court when the man came before the magistrate. The magistrate discharged the case until the result of the appeal was heard. These four men were locked up on the Sunday night, but they were all released on the Monday morning by the order of the magistrate on their own bail of £5 each.
The statement about one man applying three times to the Ealing recruiting office is not correct. I am informed that the chairman of the magistrates did not make any reflections on the military authorities.
Has the right hon. Gentleman communicated with the magistrate who made those remarks?
Yes, that is the information supplied to me officially.
Choice of Regiments
asked whether Thomas Brown, a young married man attested under the Derby scheme, and who is in Group 26, which is called up for 7th April, will be allowed to join the Royal Engineers, in view of the fact that he has two brothers in that corps and that one of the inducements held out to married men to join was that they should have choice of regiments?
On the information contained in this question it would appear that Thomas Brown, if suitable for the Royal Engineers, has some claim to be selected for that corps. He should inform the Area Commander of his claim. I cannot, of course, decide these cases by answers given in this House, which must necessarily be based on such information as the question contains, and my hon. Friend will excuse me for saying that the information supplied to hon. Members in these personal cases is often necessarily ex parte.
Am I to understand that, if possible, brothers are sent to the same regiment to serve together?
Yes, if possible.
Married Men (Group System)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is aware that the recruiting office at Kirkwall refuses to allow a married man whose group has not been called up to enlist at once; and whether this action on his part is by instruction from the War Office?
No, Sir. It is not on the instructions of the War Office that the recruiting officer at Kirkwall has refused the permission mentioned, if it has been refused. Any man may come forward out of his group for immediate service with the Colours if he should desire to do so.
Will the right hon. Gentleman have the information telegraphed at once to the recruiting officer at Kirkwall?
Yes, I will have it conveyed.
Territorial Force (Foreign Service)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that a number of men belonging to the Territorial Force who had signed on for foreign service before 2nd March have been drafted to other units while their own local units require more men to complete them; and, seeing that this is causing some amount of discontent, will he take steps to keep the men with their own units until they are complete?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answers I gave on the 28th March to the hon. Members for North Somerset and for the Ealing Division.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is nothing in the letter of the War Office which is the cause of discontent which states that the War Office reserves to itself the right to send soldiers where they please? In the letter to the War Office the option was given to these Territorial soldiers to elect to which battalion they should be sent, and the action now taken has caused serious discontent throughout the whole Territorial Force.
The actual joining of the regiment will be done—the regiment of their choice, but the War Office has to reserve to itself the power of attachment to other units to make them up to the strength, and we cannot avoid it.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take into account that the promise given was that men should have the option of joining their own Territorial unit? The suggestion he now makes is not in their opinion carrying out that promise.
In the cases referred to in my question their own Territorial unit is not complete, and other men are being asked to complete that Territorial unit from some other portions of the country, including Scotland. Can that not be altered while their own local unit is incomplete?
It all depends upon the amount of depletion of the various units. We are very anxious to carry out the policy which my hon. Friend desires, but the needs of the Service must be paramount and above every other consideration. I am sure the House will bear me out in that. The Commander-in-Chief has found it necessary to attach certain drafts to units which are not their own local units, but they will not be there permanently and only for attachment. It is considered absolutely necessary that we should reserve that power.
Medical Certificates
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is aware that W. Russell, 1, Orchard Terrace, Crayford, went to attest in October last, and was given a medical certificate as unfit, as he has paralysis of the right ankle; that on 24th February he received a summons to go to Francis Street, Woolwich, to join up; that he went the same day to inquire why the summons had been sent, and on showing the certificate the recruiting officer took it from him and tore it up; will he say if the recruiting officer had any right to tear up the certificate; and will he see that Russell is relieved from service?
I am calling for a report.
Civil Servants of Military Age
84.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state the number of men of military age engaged on clerical work or as messengers, or in any similar employment, at the Treasury, and in Departments or Offices under the direct control of the Treasury, showing the figures for each Department separately before the outbreak of war and at the present date; what steps are being taken to replace men of military age either by men over military age or by women, with a view to release men of military age for service in the Army; and whether he can state the number of single men and of married men, respectively, formerly employed at the Treasury and in Departments or Offices under the direct control of the Treasury who have been released for military service?
Questions in similar terms were addressed by Commander HAMILTON BENN in relation to (8) Foreign Office, (61) Board of Trade, and (73) Post Office; by Captain AMERY, in respect of (16) Irish Office, (67) Board of Education, (75) Home Office, and (79) Board of Agriculture; by Mr. G. TERRELL, relating to (20) Colonial Office and (109) War Office; by Mr. RUPERT GWYNNE, referring to (22) Admiralty, (51) Local Government Board, (69) Scottish Office, and (122) India Office; and by Captain BENNETT-GOLDNEY, in respect of (33) Ministry of Munitions.
Perhaps I may be allowed to anwer all these questions at the same time. The Return which was promised in reply to a question by the hon. Baronet the Member for Wellington will, I hope, contain substantially all the information now requested.
May I ask whether that Return will contain the numbers of unmarried eligible men who are serving at headquarters in different parts of the country?
I will inquire as to that.
When may we expect the Return?
I will inquire as to that also.
Questions
Loss of Steamship "Sussex."
asked how many persons, including crew, sailed on the "Sussex" on her last voyage; how many lifeboats were on the ship and what their total carrying capacity was; how many of these lifeboats were launched after the ship was struck; and how many were found unseaworthy owing to leaks or other causes?
The "Sussex" is a French vessel, belonging to the French State Railways, and sailing under French regulations. Any inquiry into the circumstances of the accident which may be necessary would, therefore, be naturally made by the French authorities. I am not at present in a position to give the details asked for in the question, but I am in communication with the French authorities, and hope to be able to make a statement in a few days.
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is now in a position to state how much of the mail was saved on the "Sussex"; whether the mails to Australia and India were wholly or partly saved; and whether the portion saved has been already forwarded or will be sent with the next outgoing mail?
I am glad to say that the mail for France which was on the "Sussex" was untouched, but unfortunately more than half the mail of about 2,000 bags for Egypt, India, Australia and the Far East generally which was also on board was entirely lost. About 800 bags of this mail which were in good condition were sent on as soon as possible by special train to Marseilles, where they were in time to be embarked on the P. and O. Packet, so that they will reach their destination in ordinary course. Some other bags, or parts of them, have been recovered in bad condition, but over 1,000 bags have been lost altogether.
Restriction of Imports
asked how much tonnage accommodation was required for the importation of foreign spirits other than brandy and rum in 1915; and by how much such accommodation exceeded that required for the importation of foreign hops in the same period?
I am afraid that the variety of the containers in which spirits are imported and the fact that imports are recorded not in the form of actual liquid gallons but in the equivalent quantities of proof gallons, make it impossible for a satisfactory estimate to be framed with regard to the tonnage space occupied by imported spirits. The materials for the comparison asked for in the last part of the question are not, therefore, available.
Arising out of that reply, can the right hon. Gentleman then tell us why the other day he said that the reason for not excluding hops was that they did not take a considerable amount of tonnage, whereas he has excluded spirits?
I cannot give the exact figures, but I am sure the hon. Gentleman will have observed that the quantity was considerable.
Sanatogen
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will explain to the House the conditions under which the Government are permitting the Sanatogen Company to trade in this country; whether sanatogen is regarded as a national necessity; and, if not, in view of the increasing cost of milk and seeing that in the district where the sanatogen factory is situated there is a demand for milk owing to the increased influx of population engaged in munitions and dockyard work and that milk is largely used for the manufacture of sanatogen, he will consider the advisability of winding up this company and so free quantities of milk for consumption purposes?
The business of the Sanatogen Company is being carried on in this country under supervision. The Advisory Committee appointed under the Trading With the Enemy Amendment Act, 1916, already have the case under their consideration, and inquiries are being made with regard to the points referred to.
My point was as to whether or not sanatogen is regarded as a national necessity?
That is a matter of opinion.
No!
The only thing I am charged with is the duty of administering the Trading With the Enemy (Amendment) Act. The matter will come before the Committee very soon and will be dealt with.
Coal Supplies
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that there is a shortage of coal at Chatham; that as a consequence the poor are being charged 2s. 6d. to 3s. a hundredweight, a price they cannot afford; that on Tuesday, the 14th March, there were no coals at the Medway Union, where there are some 600 sick, aged, and infirm patients; and will he take steps forthwith to remedy this state of things and authorise larger deliveries by rail forthwith?
I am having inquiry made into the matter, and will communicate with the hon. and learned Gentleman.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, to meet the complaints made in Italy regarding the high freights of coal, the benefit of which is largely reaped by neutral vessels, he will try the effect of withholding bunker coal from such vessels at ports under the control of His Majesty's Government?
Any steps that can usefully be taken in this question of freights are being and will be taken, but a general withholding of bunker coal, such as is suggested in the question, would drive the neutral ships out of the trade and increase the difficulty.
Education Prosecution (Greenwich)
asked the President of the Board of Education whether the local education authority for the area concerned has called his attention to its failure to secure a conviction in the Greenwich Police Court on 1st March against the parent of a boy for a breach of the attendance bye-laws; and, if so, what reply has been given to the local authority?
My right hon. Friend does not appear to have received any communication from the local education authority on the subject. He received, from the Woolwich District Teachers' Association, a resolution protesting against the magistrate's decision, which was acknowledged. He has, of course, no power to review the action of magistrates.
Crown Prince of Serbia (Visit to London)
asked the Prime Minister, in view of the desire of the public to seize the occasion of the approaching visit to this country of the Crown Prince of Serbia as an opportunity for displaying the admiration of the British people for the gallantry of their Serbian allies and of sympathy for the present sufferings of the Serbian people, if he will say when the Crown Prince of Serbia is expected to arrive in London; and what arrangements have been made for his reception and entertainment in a manner fitted to express the loyalty of England to our Serbian ally?
The Crown Prince of Serbia will arrive to-morrow, Friday. An announcement to this effect was made to the Press last night, and a further announcement will be made, giving the station and hour of arrival. The hon. Member may rest assured that suitable arrangements are being made for His Royal Highness' reception and entertainment during his visit. I may add that the visit is not a State visit, and that all the arrangements have been made in accordance with His Royal Highness' express wishes.
Registration of Firms Bill
asked whether His Majesty's Government intends to pass into law forthwith the Registration of Firms Bill introduced in another place?
As I have reason to believe that the Registration of Firms Bill would not be accepted as a non-contentious Measure, the Government are not, as at present advised, prepared to proceed with the Bill in this House.
Would not this Bill be very useful for the purpose of administering the recent Trading With the Enemy Act?
This is, I understand, a controversial Measure.
Branch Post Office, Upper Baker Street
asked the Postmaster-General if the post office in Upper Baker Street will shortly be closed; if he is aware that those who reside or carry on business in the vicinity are much alarmed at the prospect; and is he aware that, owing to the improvements which have been and will be made at the junction of Marylebone Road and Baker Street, there are growing and increasing needs for more rather than diminished postal facilities?
It is the intention to close the branch post office at Upper Baker Street temporarily as a war measure, in order to facilitate the release of more men for military service. Many branch offices throughout the country have already been closed for similar reasons. There are three other post offices within a radius of 600 yards from the Upper Baker Street Office, and the facilities afforded by these may, I think, be regarded as reasonably adequate to the requirements of the public under present circumstances.
Registered Friendly Aliens
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many registered friendly aliens there are of military age in this country who, if in their own countries, would be serving in their armies?
I am unable to give the figures desired, nor would it be possible, in view of the variations in the limits of military age and conditions of service in different countries, to obtain any such figures.
Is it not a fact that there are a very large number of friendly aliens in this country of military age who might with advantage go and fight?
I am not aware of that. We have endeavoured to meet the hon. Member's question, but we find we cannot.
Sheep Worrying
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether he is aware that owing to the number of military camps through out the country the number of stray dogs has increased and that farmers in many places are suffering losses from the worrying of sheep and lambs by such dogs; and whether, in view of the difficulty and delay in obtaining damages in compensation for such losses by action at law, he will introduce legislation enabling farmers to obtain orders authorising them or, alternatively, the police to destroy any dog known to be dangerous to sheep?
The Department have received no information or representations which support the general statement made in the first part of the question. The powers which the Dogs Act, 1906, gives to local authorities enable them to deal adequately with the danger of sheep-worrying dogs, and I do not think that any additional powers of the kind named by my hon. Friend are therefore called for. Under this enactment, as the hon. and learned Member knows, a proved sheep worrier may be ordered to be kept under proper control or destroyed.
Nitrate of Soda (Purchases in Chili)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture the quantity of nitrate of soda purchased by the Board of Agriculture in Chili during the last three months of 1915, and the price per quintal paid for it?
I fear I can only refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to one of the questions asked by the hon. Baronet the Member for Elgin and Nairn on Wednesday, the 1st of December.
Is it the case that this nitrate of soda was sold at from 9s. 3d. to 9s. 6d., and that the present price is about 7s. 3d.?
I think it hardly desirable to give particulars, except to say I think these particulars are incorrect, of purchases made by the Government, until transactions are completed.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say if any of this nitrate has been brought to this country and resold?
I can say none has been brought to this country yet.
Has any been resold in Chili?
There again I would rather not answer piecemeal until the Government transactions are completed.
Mesopotamia Campaign
Hutting Accommodation
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he can communicate to the House the latest Report received upon the hutting arrangements for British and Indian troops, in view of the early hot weather expected on the Lower Tigris?
I have not any report on the hutting arrangements but I am telegraphing for information.
Hospital and Medical Arrangements
asked the Secretary of State for India how many senior officers of the Indian Transport and Supply Service and Indian Medical Service have been decorated in connection with the Mesopotamia campaign?
Two field officers of the Indian Supply and Transport have received brevet promotions and two field officers of the Indian Medical Service have received decorations in connection with the Mesopotamia campaign.
asked the Secretary of State for India whether Sir W. Vincent and General Bingley, being sub-ordinate officers of the Government of India, have the power to examine and report upon the share borne by the military and financial members of the Viceroy's Council in planning and executing the Mesopotamia campaign and the short-comings connected therewith; and if they are precluded from so doing will he appoint an independent Commission to take the necessary evidence from the highest responsible authorities in India?
The answer to both questions is in the negative. The inquiry is confined to the medical and hospital arrangements of the Mesopotamian campaign. I assume that it will embrace all matters relative to the sufficiency or otherwise of the provision made in India and Mesopotamia for medical personnel, stores, and appliances; also as to the organisation of medical relief and the arrangements for dealing with the sick and wounded in the field, at the base, and in transit to the base. I have issued instructions that the Commission should fearlessly ascertain and assign the responsibility for the breakdown of relief, whether individuals or the system are to blame. Until the Commission has reported I cannot say whether a further inquiry will be needed. The Viceroy has informed me that he has invited Mr. E. A. Ridsdale, Red Cross Commissioner, now. en route from this country to Mesopotamia, to join the Commission as a member.
asked the Secretary of State for India if he can state in pounds sterling the original and subsequent Grants made by the Indian Government in respect of the Mesopotamian campaign?
It is not in the public interest to publish statements of expenditure incurred or being incurred on military operations in any part of the globe. But I may state that under the terms of the Resolution passed by both Houses of Parliament in November, 1914, the portion of any such expenditure falling on Indian revenues is limited to what India would have paid if the troops from the Indian establishment had remained in India. The Indian Government, therefore, as regards all expenditure in excess of normal charges, is merely that of a disbursing authority, dealing with moneys provided by the War Office.
Questions
German Soldier's Funeral (Military Honours)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether a German soldier, Private Ernst Heinrich Rabhow, who died at Leigh (Lancs), was buried with military honours; whether a non-commissioned officer of the New Zealand Expeditionary Force, who died in a British hospital from wounds received at Chunuk Bair, was buried without military honours; and, if so, will he say why any such distinction is made?
I cannot say without inquiry whether Ernst Heinrich Rabhow was buried with military honours, nor can I say whether a non-commissioned officer with the New Zealand Expeditionary Force, in regard to whom my hon. and gallant Friend gives no data for identification, was buried without military honours. Consequently, I cannot answer the last part of the question. Perhaps I may be furnished with details regarding the noncommissioned officer of the New Zealand Expeditionary Force.
Is there any reason why German soldiers, having regard to their practices, should ever be buried with military honours?
I am bound to say I see very little.
Territorial Force (Command and Extra Duty Pay)
asked what is the reason of the inferiority of pay for command and extra duty in third-line Territorial Force battalions for commanding officers, adjutants, and assistant adjutants as compared with similar ranks in Reserve (Service) battalions, and whether this difference to the disadvantage of the Territorial Force will be rectified?
Rates of command pay and other forms of extra pay vary according to circumstances, and especially to the size of the unit concerned. The establishment of these third-line Territorial units was at first fixed far below that of Reserve (Service) battalions. This establishment has now been raised, and a corresponding increase of the emoluments in question is contemplated.
Does that mean putting them on the same level as Reserve (Service) battalions?
It depends on the size. As the establishment is raised the emoluments would be reconsidered.
Light Horse Breeding
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the Governments of Belgium, France, and Italy are anxious to buy light horses in Ireland; and whether His Majesty's Government will afford them the necessary facilities for doing so?
I am afraid that it is not possible to give the facilities suggested, as the supply of horses suitable for military purposes in the United Kingdom is required for the British Army. It would be of no use to allow these horses to be exported for the use of other Governments and for His Majesty's Government then to have to import horses, if it could find them, from other countries.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that farmers and breeders of light horses in Ireland are intending this year to send 80 per cent. of their half-bred mares to Clydesdale and Shire stallions, with the result that remounts in future will not be obtainable in Ireland; and whether, in view of this state of affairs, the Government have any proposition to put before the farmers in connection with horse breeding?
Horse breeding in Ireland is the concern primarily of the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction in Ireland I think that that Department may be fully trusted not to neglect the best interests of farmers and breeders in Ireland. Any information or advice which the War Office can give to this Department is always at its service.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been directed to the condition of light horse breeding in Ireland owing to the fact that the farmers and breeders of light horses in Ireland cannot dispose of the animals in their possession; what action the Government intend to take with regard to the future so as to induce farmers and breeders to put their mares to thoroughbred horses this season and keep alive the production of light horses in Ireland; and whether he is aware that Irish horses make the best Army horses owing to their hardiness and endurance?
The excellent qualities of the Irish horse are well known to the Remount Department. The purchases of horses in Ireland, both for Cavalry and Artillery, will commence quite shortly.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he can give the total amount paid by the Government for light horses in America since the outbreak of the War, the total number landed in England or Ireland, and the cost per horse at Liverpool, Dublin, or other English or Irish port?
As I informed my hon. Friend the Member for North Leitrim on the 1st March in reply to a similar question, I regret that it is not considered in the public interest to publish the information asked for.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that there is no remount depot open in county Kildare where farmers can offer their horses for sale, neither does any remount officer visit the county to purchase remounts; and whether a remount depot will be opened at the Curragh and facilities given to farmers and breeders in county Kildare to offer their horses in this time of need?
The purchase of remounts in Ireland is made through recognised dealers, and any departure from this system requires careful consideration which is now being given to it by the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that at present there are a number of light horses in Ireland, four, five, and six years old, suitable for Army purposes; that before the outbreak of war these horses were intended to be made into hunters and harness horses and sold for these purposes; that the owners are willing to dispose of them to the Government for half their pre-war value; and whether the Government intend to take any steps in the matter?
Orders have already been given to the Irish dealers to commence showing horses next month.
Chatham (Billeting Arrangements)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that many of the soldiers quartered at Chatham are being removed from their billets and put under canvas; that the conditions, owing to the wet and severe weather, are most unsatisfactory; and will he take steps to prevent further removals and arrange that those who have been put under canvas may be housed in convenient buildings till the weather improves?
I am aware that it has been necessary to put troops under canvas. This was done in consequence of the outbreak of spotted fever, and is the best procedure to adopt in such cases, for which it has proved very efficacious. I very much regret that the weather should have been so severe since these troops have been under canvas, but the hon. Gentleman will agree that the prevention of the spread of cerebro-spinal meningitis is of paramount importance, not only to the soldiers themselves but also to the civil population.
Hay Shortage
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that there are complaints in Morayshire of a shortage of hay owing to the Government having requisitioned the saleable surplus of the last crop; whether he is aware that contractors, horse hirers, coal merchants, and others are unable to obtain adequate supplies; and whether the Government can see their way to relieve the situation by releasing part of the requisitioned hay still in the county?
So far as I am aware, no hay has been requisitioned in Morayshire. Some 6,000 tons have been purchased in the Northern District of Scotland embracing eight counties. On the information at present in possession of the War Office, it is not considered necessary to release any of this hay.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is great difficulty in getting hay there, and that people who require hay for their horses are unable to obtain it?
I am afraid that from the information in my possession it is more a matter of price than shortage of supply.
Air Services
Telephonic and Telegraphic Information
asked the Postmaster-General whether arrangements have yet been made for all post offices and telephone exchanges to be kept open whenever air raids are imminent in order that immediate information may be conveyed as to the whereabouts of any aircraft?
Arrangements have been made by the Commander-in-Chief, Home Forces, the Home Office, and the Post Office, acting in concert, for the conveyance of warnings of the approach of hostile aircraft to the responsible military and police officers, and to munition factories and other establishments where special action has to be taken in such an event. I understand arrangements have in turn been made by the military and police to advise local authorities wherever it is thought expedient. Telephone exchanges are with few exceptions open always, and telegraph offices are kept open wherever necessary, but it is unnecessary to keep all post offices open.
Enemy Raids
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the aerodromes in the south-eastern district are under the direct orders of the General Officer Commanding that district, or whether it is necessary for him to transmit his orders through the War Office?
I assume my hon. Friend is referring to questions of administration and discipline. In regard to these matters, Royal Flying Corps units are under the General Officers Commanding-in-Chief of the commands in which they are situated.
My question relates to aircraft defence as to whether the General Officer Commanding can, in fact, direct the aerodromes and give his orders?
I think, as regards these other questions, it would be wise if my hon. Friend would give me notice, and then I can give him a considered answer.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War (1) whether it is necessary for the parties on guard duty against hostile aircraft round the coast to obtain permission from an officer before firing; if so, whether, for the purpose of obtaining such permission in case no officer may be present, there is provided direct telephonic communication with regimental and brigade headquarters so as to avoid the delay involved by trunk calls; and (2) whether in the south-eastern district there exists any means of direct and immediate communication between the parties posted on guard duty against hostile aircraft and the local aerodromes?
These are not matters which can be dealt with in public without detriment to our own interest.
Anti-Aircraft Corps
asked whether over 100 men of the Anti-Aircraft Corps, most of whom are physically unfit for Army service at the front, have been removed from the searchlight stations around London in order to make room for Territorials of military age and physical fitness; and, if so, whether he will arrange that those anti-aircraft men who have attested and have been found medically unfit for active service can be retained in their former capacities on the searchlight stations, thus releasing eligible men for more useful service elsewhere?
I dealt with this matter in Debate on the 28th March and I think the hon. Member will find, if he will do me the honour of referring to what I then said, that it is not necessary to add anything further.
Questions
Surplus Army Rations
asked whether surplus rations issued to soldiers at the front and in camps in this country have to be destroyed; and, if so, as such cannot be sold, will he consider the advisability of arranging for their being collected and distributed to the poor by charitable organisations such as the Salvation Army, the Church Army, the Little Sisters of the Poor, and the like?
Surplus rations are not destroyed, but retained for further use, and demands are reduced accordingly. Only foodstuffs found unfit for human consumption should under Service Regulations be destroyed. At the present time great efforts are being made to collect and find a satisfactory market for all useful by-products, such as dripping and bones.
Surely it is within the right hon. Gentleman's knowledge that a good deal of rations are opened and not used, and there must, in fact, be in every camp, both here and at the front, a great deal of waste. What is done with that waste?
We are doing everything we can to prevent it, but where there is what my hon. Friend calls waste it is subject to the regulations in force and also to the arrangements made for the disposal of other waste products, such as dripping and bones.
Do I understand that nothing is destroyed?
Nothing except food which is considered to be unfit for human consumption.
Salisbury and Ripon Commands
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office what is the annual saving to public funds by the suppression of the separate training-centre commands at Salisbury and Ripon?
Approximately £9,000 a year for personnel. I cannot give an estimate of the incidental savings in other directions.
Naval and Military Services (Pensions and Grants)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether his attention has been called to the case of Driver John Dickson, 68th Brigade, 13th Division, Royal Field Artillery, of 258 Main Street, Bridgeton, Glasgow, who enlisted on 16th August, 1914, and was discharged as medically unfit for military service on 28th April, 1915; whether he is aware that Dickson was passed into the Army as medically fit and that, after spending some weeks in tents, he became affected with rheumatic heart; whether he is aware that since his discharge Dickson has been completely disabled for work by rheumatic valvular disease of the heart and that his medical history previous to his enlistment shows no sign of this disease; whether he is aware that Dickson has been refused any pension and is now in a state of destitution; whether the fact that he was passed into the Army as medically fit establishes a presumption that he was free from disease and throws upon the military authorities the burden of proof that the disease existed before enlistment; and whether, if it is established that the disease existed previous to enlistment, the Government proposes to make any provision for soldiers whose disease is aggravated or accelerated by changes in the conditions of life due to military service?
I have been in communication with my hon. Friend in regard to this soldier. The intention of the Gov- ernment to make provision in cases of disease aggravated by service was fully explained in the recent Debates on Army Estimates.
Can nothing be done to remove the very unfortunate impression created by the spectacle of a man who has been one of the first to enlist after the War, who was passed as medically fit, who has been discharged with his health shattered—
The hon. Member is asking the same question again in other words.
Officers' Pay
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if the Government have come to any decision regarding the payment of full pay to officers in addition to their retired pay?
No change has yet been decided on.
Will any decision be come to before the end of the War?
Yes, I should hope that a decision will be come to before the end of the War, but I am not in a position to hold out any great hope that a change in the practice will be made.
War Office Contracts (Supply of Jam)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he will explain why firms who contracted for the supply of jams to the War Office last November for delivery to July, 1916, are still required to invoice the same at contract prices, although the Government, who supply them with all the sugar used, are charging contractors 4s. 6d. per cwt. advance on the same, and will not allow them to buy in advance?
Contractors for jam who quoted a firm price irrespective of any variation in the price of sugar are required to continue invoicing supplies at the contract rates, because the allowance, if any, to be made on account of the advance in the price of that commodity is not yet settled. The question is receiving consideration, and a decision will be given as soon as possible.
Do I understand that the question of revision is being considered?
Yes, Sir.
East India Revenue Accounts
asked the Secretary of State for India whether the East India Revenue Accounts will be discussed this Session?
I will consult the Prime Minister on this subject, and will inform my hon. Friend when I am able to give a definite reply.
Sugar Supplies
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer on what basis was the calculation made under which the sugar supply was restricted by 25 per cent.; what steps were taken to enforce the restriction fairly on all classes of consumers; and whether he anticipates that all restrictions will shortly be removed?
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any manufacturer has been allowed to accumulate large stocks of sugar, whereas other manufacturers are only allowed from 50 to 75 per cent. of their average weekly consumption; and if he can state, approximately, within what period he expects to be in a position to enable jam manufacturers to secure their normal supplies of sugar to enable them to deal with the fresh fruit when it arrives?
The restriction was calculated in accordance with the information received by the Sugar Commission with reference to the amount of tonnage that it would be possible to employ in carrying sugar to this country consistently with other freight requirements of national importance. The methods of distribution employed in the trade are based, so far as possible, on the previous requirements of consumers, with a view to the restriction in supplies falling equitably upon all classes of the community. I am not aware of any case in which free supply has been given to any individual or firm manufacturing or otherwise whilst other firms were receiving restricted supplies, but I shall be glad to make inquiries into any case where this is alleged to have taken place. For the rest, I can add nothing to the replies I gave on the 21st and 23rd March to my hon. Friend the Member for the Bridgeton Division.
Would the right hon. Gentleman use his influence with the Prime Minister to secure an opportunity for discussing this very important matter in the House, having regard to the great interest taken in it?
I should think it would be quite open to discuss it on the Budget.
Premium Bonds
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the fact that the two Committees now sitting to deal with questions of the finance and administration of the various war savings schemes have made representations to him in favour of some scheme of premium bonds, he will appoint a small Committee of experts to consider and, if necessary, formulate a scheme before the Government finally determine whether or not they will entertain one?
The decision taken by the Government in this matter is final, and it would not, therefore, serve any useful purpose to appoint a Committe as the hon. and learned Member suggests.
Is it not the fact that the Government came to their decision prior to any recommendation which reached them from the War Savings Committee or any expression of public opinion on the subject?
No. The Government had before them the opinions of the War Savings Committee, but not the views of the business men who proposed to see me on the subject.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give the date when the Government arrived at their decision upon the subject?
I think it was immediately before I answered a question upon the subject.
Will the right hon. Gentleman state whether the decision was arrived at upon moral or financial grounds?
It was arrived at upon a large number of grounds, including moral, financial, and others.
Is it not the case that there were Suez Canal Premium Bonds?
I should like notice of that question.
Clyde Industrial Dispute
( by Private Notice ) asked the Minister of Munitions whether his attention has been called to a statement that the Labour troubles in one of the munitions factories in the Clyde area had arisen out of the withdrawal of privileges previously enjoyed by the shop stewards; whether this is in accordance with the fact; and whether he can state what is the nature of the dispute which led to a strike in this factory?
My attention has been called to the statement referred to by my hon. Friend, and I am glad to say that there is no foundation for it. Some time after the scheme of dilution had been inaugurated at these works the workmen put forward a demand that the convener of shop stewards should be entitled without permission of the firm to leave his work during working hours and to go to any other department for the purpose of inquiring into the work being done by women, and of discussing with them during working hours their wages and other matters. This demand was a great extension of the privileges previously enjoyed by the convener, and was objected to by the firm, who offered to grant reasonable facilities for ascertaining what was being done under dilution, and said that if the claim was to be seriously pressed it must be referred to the Clyde Commissioners. The men declined to do so, and forthwith went on strike, although engaged on most urgent national work which the Army are pressing us to complete, and although the scheme of dilution which they had agreed to specifically provided for arbitration on any such question.
Are we to understand that, as a matter of fact, the privilege hitherto enjoyed by the convener of shop stewards has not been withdrawn, such as it was?
That is so. His demand was not a demand for the continuation of any privilege enjoyed before, but for a very considerable extension. I want it to be clearly understood that the firm were willing to give every facility to enable them to ascertain what had been done by dilution, and where there was a dispute as to what facilities ought to be granted, they suggested it should be referred to the Commissioners in the usual way, there having already been an agreement between the men and the Commissioners that every dispute as to the way it should be worked should be referred to them. But they declined to accept any arbitration on the subject and went on strike immediately.
May I ask whether the Minister of Munitions can devise any means for securing that correct official statements are made about these matters as early as possible, instead of allowing public opinion to be confused by means of misleading statements in the Press by unauthorised individuals—by prosecution or otherwise?
It is very difficult to prevent misrepresentations of that kind, but we are doing our very best. Yesterday my hon. Friend (Dr. Addison) made a very full statement on the subject. I agree, it is very important that the whole facts should be clearly stated, so that the loyal workmen should know exactly what the facts are, and my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Education (Mr. Henderson) is proceeding to Glasgow to inform the trade unions, whose leaders have been perfectly loyal in this respect, of the whole circumstances of the case.
When does my right hon. Friend propose to make public the other side of the case? [HON. MEMBERS: "What other side?"] My hon. Friends ask me, What other side? We have only got the Government statement—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"]—so far in this House and in the Press, and there is obviously another side. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why 'obviously'?"]
If there was another side, why did not these men present it before the Commissioners?
Will the right hon. Gentleman ask the hon. Member to give the German side?
Can my right hon. Friend make any statement as to the present situation, and as to whether any attempt has been made to reach a settlement whereby the men would return to work?
Every possible attempt has been made, not merely for days, but for weeks and for months, and I am sorry to say that every bargain which has been made, not merely with the Minister of Munitions but with the Prime Minister, as the head of the Government, has been broken in every instance, not by the leaders of the men, but by those men whose object I do not wish at the present moment to describe.
I wish to put a further question to my right hon. Friend. I desire to ask if he is aware that certain negotiations, started on Tuesday night, were broken off by the Minister of Munitions at a time when the prospects of settlement were extremely favourable?
I was not here on Tuesday night, but I have been making considerable inquiries. I understand there is not a syllable of truth in it.
I was a party to those negotiations.
It is not so. There was an attempt made, it is perfectly true, by certain members of the House, but my hon. Friend, I think quite properly, refused to have anything whatever to do with men who at that moment were absolutely defying the law. It was suggested to them that the first thing they must do was to return to work, and if there were any grievances they would be considered in the usual way.
I have every reason to say, and it is very important I should say it, that there was a prospect that the men would actually be at work without any undertaking being given by the Government.
Old Age Pensions
asked the Chief Secretary why the old age pension of 5s. per week, granted by the Newry Urban Old Age Pensions Committee, to Thomas M'Avoy, River Street, Newry, has not teen allowed; if he is aware that the baptismal certificate of this man's sister was produced showing that she will be seventy years of age in August, 1916, and that she is at least two years younger than her brother, Thomas M'Avoy; whether he is further aware that a retired Excise official, who is eighty years of age, has certified that he has known M'Avoy for over fifty years, and that when he first became acquainted with him he, M'Avoy, was between twenty and thirty years of age; and whether, in view of all the facts, he will have the decision of the Newry Old Age Pensions Committee confirmed?
The pension of 5s. a week granted by the Newry Urban Old Age Pensions Committee to Thomas M'Avoy has not been allowed because there is an appeal by the pension officer against the decision of the Newry Pensions Committee, and the case is at present under the consideration of the Local Government Board. As regards the latter part of the question, statements have been received regarding the respective ages of the claimant and his sister from a Mr. Sheridan, who is presumably the retired Excise official to whom reference is made, and these will be inquired into by the Board.
Vaccination, Belfast
asked the Chief Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to the case of Mr. Atchison, of Belfast, who was prosecuted in October, 1915, for non-vaccination of a child who had been delicate from birth, and who was at the time utterly unfit for vaccination; whether he is aware that when the summons was heard a certificate from a doctor was handed in, which stated that the child was unfit for vaccination, and that in spite of this certificate the resident magistrate fined Mr. Atchison 20s. and costs; whether he is aware that Mr. Atchison elected to suffer the alternative of fourteen days' imprisonment sooner than pay what he regarded as an illegal fine, and that he actually went to prison, but was released after a day or two, because friends paid the fine for him; and whether he will make some reparation to Mr. Atchison for the conviction and the subsequent imprisonment?
My attention has already been called to the case referred to. Mr. Atchison was fined, as stated, in November, 1915, for having neglected to have his child, which was born in March, 1912, brought to the medical officer for vaccination without having any reasonable excuse to render for this neglect. It was proved that on several occasions the attention of the father was drawn by the vaccination officer to his failure to comply with the law and that Mr. Atchison persisted in his neglect to have the child vaccinated or furnish a certificate of unfitness. A certificate was produced in Court by the person who appeared on Mr. Atchison's behalf, showing that the child was unfit for vaccination on the 20th October, 1915, but no evidence of previous unfitness was produced. There was no appeal from the conviction. I am aware that Mr. Atchison was lodged in prison and discharged next day on payment of the fine. The reply to the last part of the question is in the negative.
Admiralty Motor-boat Appointments
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that intimation was given in the West of Scotland by his Department that the navigation certificate of the Royal Technical College, Glasgow, would be accepted for motor-boat reserve appointments; that twelve men armed with such certificates came to London at their own expense; that only one was accepted, while vacancies for the Scottish work of the Admiralty are being filled by men from the South with a much lower standard of certificate; and whether he can explain this in equality?
The Department expends much energy and care over these appointments, and a really practical knowledge of seamanship and experience in small craft is one of the standards of acceptance. Many applicants from the neighbourhood of Glasgow have been accepted, and they are at no disadvantage with applicants from any other part of the British Empire, nor is anything known of the circumstances related in my hon. Friend's question. I shall be glad to have particulars from my hon. Friend of the facts mentioned in the first part of the question.
Cutlery Contracts (Royal Navy)
asked whether tenders for ivory-handled and electro-plated-handled knives are to be invited, or whether knives with handles made of bone or some other substitute are to be purchased?
Action on the tenders has been suspended pending the result of the inquiries which are being made as to whether there are any substitutes for ivory-handled and electro-plated-handled knives which would stand the necessary wear and tear.
Lerwick Explosion
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty if any further steps have been taken to meet the claims of those whose property was seriously damaged by the explosion at Lerwick; and if he will have immediate further inquiry made with the view of settling such claims as are found to be reasonable?
Further inquiries have been and are still being made respecting the representations previously made by my hon. Friend on behalf of certain fishermen, with a view to consideration being given to the question of whether some further payment in respect of those claims should be made.
Motor Omnibus Traffic (Damage to Highways)
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that in 1913 the motor omnibuses of London ran 105,000,000 miles; that this traffic causes much damage to the highways, and that the engineer to the Middlesex County Council estimated that the increased cost of repairing a particular road was increased by such traffic to the extent of 2d. per omnibus mile; whether, in view of the conditions of motor-omnibus competition with the London municipal tramways, in that the latter have to lay, maintain, repair, and pay rates upon their tracks, whereas the omnibus has the free use of the roads, the Government will introduce a Bill to enable municipal authorities to control street traffic and to levy a roadway maintenance charge upon motor-omnibus traffic?
My right hon. Friend fears it would be quite impossible for the Government to introduce legislation on this subject at the present time.
Education (Curricula)
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he will set up a committee for the purpose of ascertaining how far and in what way the dead languages could be removed from their preferential position in all curricula, and be made optional subjects for all examinations where they are now compulsory, in order that the time at present devoted to their study may be made available for the study of English language and literature, modern languages, and science?
The position of the dead languages in the curricula of schools and universities is a subject which very frequently engages the attention of the Board, and my right hon. Friend is fully alive to the importance of the problems involved, but he is very doubtful whether the suggestion of my hon. Friend could be conveniently dealt with by a Departmental Committee.
India (Economic Resources)
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he can give the House any information regarding the reported appointment of a Commission to inquire into the economic resources of India?
I have not yet received the text of the Order of Reference. But I understand that the Commission will be asked to report on the possibilities of further industrial development in India, and in particular, first, as to possible new openings for the profitable employment of Indian capital; and, secondly, whether the Government can usefully give encouragement by providing technical advice, by practical demonstrations in the case of particular industries, by financial assistance, or by any other means not incompatible with the existing fiscal policy of India.
Dog Licences
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to statements made by recognised medical authorities as to the danger to the public health caused by dogs which act as carriers of disease; whether he is aware that farmers in many parts of the country have recently suffered losses caused by the worrying of sheep by stray dogs; and whether, in view of these considerations and also of the amount of food consumed by useless dogs, he will increase the cost of dog licences to a much higher figure than it is at present?
I fear I am unable to anticipate my Budget statement.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the suggestion before this and Tuesday?
I will, but, prima facie, I do not think that the Budget is a suitable engine of promoting hygiene.
Is it a suitable engine for promoting sobriety?
Private Bills
Gas Provisional Orders Bill,
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the third time upon Tuesday next.
Wakefield Corporation Bill,
Metropolitan Electric Tramways Bill,
Uxbridge Gas Bill,
Reported, with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Plymouth and Stonehouse Gas Bill,
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table.
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to,—
Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Bill,
Naval and Military War Pensions, etc. (Expenses) Bill, without Amendment.
Consolidation Bills,—That they have appointed a Committee consisting of Five Lords to join with a Committee of the Commons to consider all Consolidation Bills in the present Session and request the Commons to appoint an equal number of their Members to be joined with the said Lords.
That they have referred the Larceny Bill to the said Committee.
Orders of the Day
Business of the House
Can the Minister of Munitions give the House any information as to the business for next week?
On Tuesday the Chancellor of the Exchequer will introduce his Budget.
On Wednesday the discussion on the Budget Resolutions will be continued, and, if time permits, we shall also take the Committee stage of Bills on the Paper.
On Thursday, we propose to take the Resolution as to the payment of Members.
Resolved, That this House, at its rising this day, do adjourn until Tuesday next.—[ Mr. Lloyd George. ]
Ordered, That until the House otherwise determines, and so far as the House does not otherwise determine, no Public Bills other than Government Bills be introduced, and no Ballot be taken for determining the precedence of such Bills.—[ Mr. Lloyd George. ]
Supply.—[Fourth Allotted Day.]
Civil Services and Revenue Departments Estimates, 1916–7
[ Progress, 23 rd March. ]
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. MACLEAN (Deputy-Chairman) in the Chair.]
ROYAL PALACES.—Class 1
Motion made, and Question proposed,
1. "That a sum, not exceeding £32,700, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1917, for Expenditure in respect of Royal Palaces, including a Grant-in-Aid." [NOTE.—£23,000 has been voted on account.]
4.0 P.M.
I have only one word to say in regard to this Vote. I see there is a reduction of £9,550, largely due to a reduction of maintenance and repairs. That is part of the general reduction of the Vote of something over £600,000. I would like to congratulate my right hon. Friend upon the practical economy which he has instituted in his Votes for the present year, and I only wish that other Departments would follow his example, because such reductions are much more effective and have a greater influence on the public than brilliant orations in the City. I should like my right hon. Friend to consider whether he will not circulate a memorandum to other Ministers and ask them to look carefully at such reductions as have been achieved.
I beg to move to reduce the Vote by £100.
I cordially endorse the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman (Sir H. Dalziel) that the First Commissioner of Works should be congratulated upon the reduction he has achieved, because we all know, both in public and in private life, how difficult it is to make reductions when once items of expenditure are stereotyped and fixed. The answer always is that the expenditure was absolutely necessary last year. therefore it is absolutely necessary this year. There are two points upon which I should like to ask for some information from the right hon. Gentleman. The amount involved is infinitesimal compared with the immense sums we are voting annually, but still every £1,000 that can be saved is of some importance. On page 4 of the Estimates, which contains details with regard to the Royal Palaces, I see that no less than £4,800 is taken for maintenance and repairs at St. James's Palace. Four thousand eight hundred pounds simply for the maintenance and repairs of a building like St. James's Palace, which is partly used, perhaps twice a year, for State functions and partly used as the residences of people who have been given apartments by the Crown, does seem to be a very large sum of money. It is not for rates, taxes, or water, but simply for maintenance and general upkeep. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to give us some details of that sum, because some of us who have had to deal with the maintenance of large buildings cannot conceive that £4,800 is a sum that can, especially at the present moment, justifiably be spent on St. James's Palace. The expenditure on Hampton Court, which is something more, I can quite conceive is necessary, because it is much bigger, and it is, or was, open to the public, and a great deal of public pleasure is got out of it. Why should we pay £1,000 this year for new furniture in St. James's Palace and £1,320 for Hampton Court Palace? One thousand pounds for new furniture or repairs to old furniture, especially in St. James's Palace, three-fourths of which is taken up as private residences, is a large sum, and one about which there ought to be some inquiry. The same thing applies to Hampton Court Palace. Everybody knows that the Palace is absolutely empty except for the pictures on the wall; therefore this furniture must be for people in residence there. At this stage, when we are urged by Ministers to practise economy, I do object to voting £2,000 for St. James's Palace and £1,320 for Hampton Court Palace.
I desire to put to the right hon. Gentleman the claim of the employés in the Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens.
This Vote deals with the Royal Palaces. The hon. Member's point comes on the third Vote.
May we have from the right hon. Gentleman information with regard to St. James's Palace, and know whether this expenditure is due to the fact that Lord Kitchener has taken up his residence there and that certain arrangements have had to be made in order to meet that situation? Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will also explain the item on page 5 with regard to Appropriations-in-Aid, which are deducted from the Estimates. I notice that for the sale of guide books, postcards, etc., he has practically doubled the income for this year. As the bulk of these places, I understand from the Government, are being closed and are not open to visitors, is he really sure that he will get that amount of revenue from these casual sales? The only reason I put the point is that obviously the decrease which is stated in the Estimates on page 3 would not be so large if it were not inflated by these sales, which are estimated, I think, at 50 per cent. more than my right hon. Friend is likely to get.
I could have wished that the hon. Member for Blackpool (Mr. Ashley), in moving the reduction, had excluded any allusion to Hampton Court Palace, which stands in a somewhat different category, as my hon. Friend admitted, from St. James's Palace.
I only raised a question about the furniture.
Hampton Court Palace is a beautiful building in itself, and gives a great deal of pleasure to visitors to London. It is almost the only place through which one can go quietly, and it is a most magnificent national monument. Those who admire it are greatly indebted to my right hon. Friend for the many improvements carried out In it. I should therefore like to bar any censure being conveyed with regard to Hampton Court Palace, especially in these dull times when few places are open to the public, who will derive great benefit from the sum here voted for expenditure upon it. I hope the reduction may be limited to St. James's Palace, which stands on an altogether different level.
I desire to say a few words on the question of one of the statues recently erected in close proximity to this House. I am not quite sure whether it comes under this particular Vote.
This Vote is for Royal Palaces only, therefore that question would not arise. There is a special Vote for the Houses of Parliament buildings.
Perhaps I may deal with a few small points made on this Vote. First of all, I would like to thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel) and the hon. Member for Blackpool (Mr. Ashley) for their recognition, not of my work, but of the splendid work that has been done in my Department by everybody concerned in trying to bring down the expenditure on these Votes. The hon. Member for Blackpool said, with much truth, that it is extremely difficult to decrease either public or private expenditure that has so long been incurred and has risen to a certain level. Everybody in the Office of Works has shown the greatest determination to set an example of economy to everybody, and they have attained the result of reducing not very large total Estimates by an amount of £630,000 in a single year. The hon. Member for Blackpool commented on the sum estimated for the maintenence of St. James's Palace. I think he put it at £4,000.
:£4,800.
I think the hon. Member is mistaken, the amount is £3,225.
Then there is St. James's Palace residential apartments, £1,560, which brings the total up to £4,800.
Let me first of all say that this figure has nothing whatever to do with Lord Kitchener's residence in York House. That is not concerned at all in this Vote. Maintenance is, of course, an inclusive term. It is a portmanteau word, and covers a great deal more than it would appear to do on the surface. It includes the maintenance of the Chapel Royal and of all the official residences, such as that of the Lord Chamberlain, which are connected with the Palace. This Vote has been kept to the lowest possible figure which we think can meet the case. Of course, if any saving can be made during the year we should be extremely glad. The £1,000 for furniture is not for the provision of new furniture, but for the uncovering of and dealing with the furniture in case there should be State and other functions. If those functions do not take place, the £1,000 will not be spent, and will become a saving. As to Hampton Court, no new furniture is to be purchased for Hampton Court. This Vote covers a sum of £1,000 which has been provided in the past and is still being provided for the repair of the very beautiful tapestries there and in other Royal Palaces, because we have now one or two highly-trained experts to do the repairs on the advice of the Gobelins factory, and we have there some of the finest tapestries that are the property of the nation. It would be impossible and most unwise to part with a highly-trained expert who has taken some years to train for this most delicate work. We have kept this down to a moderate amount, but we do not wish these fine tapestries to deteriorate any more than we can help. The hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) asked why the Appropriation-in-Aid, in regard to the sale of guide books, was put higher than last year. It is because we find that our guide books are becoming very popular, and that the public are recognising their merits to such an extent that the sales last year largely exceeded the amount we put in the Estimate. It is upon our experience of last year that we are estimating the amount will be increased this year.
In view of the clear and satisfactory statement of the right hon. Gentleman, I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment for the reduction.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Original Question put, and agreed to.
OSBORNE.—Class I
Resolved,
2. "That a sum, not exceeding £3,100, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31st day of March, 1917, for Expenditure in respect of Osborne." [NOTE.—£7,000 has been voted on account.]
ROYAL PARKS AND PLEASURE GARDENS.— Class I
Motion made, and Question proposed,
3. "That a sum, not exceeding £54,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1917, for the Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens." [NOTE.—£45,000 has been voted on account.]
I cannot find in the Vote itself any reference to the cost of the buildings which have been erected in St. James's Park as affording additional office accommodation for the War Office. The cost of that falls upon the War Office Vote, but as a matter of administration the care of the buildings, I take it, comes under the charge of my right hon. Friend, and I want to ask him whether these buildings are to be regarded in the light only of temporary buildings. No one would desire to criticise the action of the Government in using this space for a strictly limited period, but I think we should all deplore the fact, if it were a fact, that these buildings were to remain in St. James's Park after the end of the War. I do not think, from what I know of my right hon. Friend's artistic principles and beliefs, that he would regard these buildings as a permanent addition to the architectural glory of London or of the parks, and I am sure he remains quite loyal to that principle which he has so often expressed in the House of Commons that no buildings and no statues of any kind should be placed in these Royal parks which would restrict the amount of space available for the general enjoyment of the community.
I do not quite know whether the hon. Member is on Item E. I want to move a reduction on Item F. I want to safeguard myself so that I may move my reduction.
The hon. Member is in possession of the Committee.
I will endeavour not to anticipate any Amendment which is moved, and I am not going to move any Amendment myself, nor to address myself to a later point than that referred to by the right hon. Gentleman. I wish to ask one or two questions in regard to Kew Gardens. I cannot see in this Vote any allowance made for the admission fees that the right hon. Gentleman will get from the new charge that has been levied at Kew. I should like to know where the account is to be rendered, and where the credit is to be given for the admission fees which are now being charged. I greatly regret that this small charge of a penny per head should be made. It means seriously interfering with the use which is made of the gardens by working-class families, and especially by poor children.
I understand the hon. Member does not wish by his remarks to shut out the right hon. Baronet. I am rather afraid that discussion arising on this item will have that effect.
In that case I will postpone my remarks.
I beg to be allowed to move to reduce the Vote by £100.
There has been in the Vote generally a more or less substantial decrease of £22,000 on a total Vote of about £114,000, but in this particular item of maintenance and repairs—
I am not quite sure about this ruling. I want to raise a question of the park-keepers, which is on item D. None of us want to move a reduction. I always understood that so long as we did not move a reduction we were not interfering with any Member who had an Amendment to move. If the right hon. Baronet is moving a reduction, I should like him to give way to those who want to raise a question affecting park-keepers, which we should not be able to do if he moved this reduction first.
A reduction on item F will not preclude the hon. Member from making any remarks afterwards on the whole Vote. It will only preclude him from moving a reduction on any item before it. I am perfectly in the hands of the Committee.
I think I gave a ruling myself a couple of weeks ago. The question of a Debate being shut out is not solely by reason of a reduction being moved, but of a Debate arising. That is the ruling which has been given and which I propose to follow. I do not think there can be any doubt about the correctness of it, because I took the opportunity, after I gave the ruling, of consulting the authorities, and I found it a fairly sound one. That is the position. We must really guide the Debate by that rule of procedure.
Do I understand that a reference to a particular item, such as Sub-head D, in the course of a general discussion would not rule out the subsequent moving of a reduction on Sub-head C, but if you had a specific discussion on Sub-head D it would not be possible to go back to Sub-head C?
Of course that is a matter for the discretion of the Chair, and the exercise of common sense. A reference would not shut it out, but where a Debate really arises it has precisely the same effect as if a reduction had been moved.
Do we understand that if the hon. Baronet moves a reduction of Item F it will be impossible to make any detailed reference to expenditure incurred under D and E?
Yes, certainly. May I suggest that hon. Members might study the Votes and see where they are themselves. I will do my best to assist everyone, of course.
If the hon. Member (Mr. Hogge) moves a reduction on item D he will not shut me out, and I could move my reduction on item F?
May I point out the difficulty in which the Committee is placed. You do not go through the Votes by sub-heads. If you called out sub-head A, sub-head B, and sub-head C, the Committee would know where it is, but you call upon any speaker who rises, and we do not know until he has developed his argument on what sub-head he is going to speak.
It would be a perfectly easy way out if, after the hon. Member has moved his reduction on item D, every Member who was present and heard what had taken place would confine his remarks to item D, and allow me to move mine on item F.
May I suggest another possible way out, and that is that no one should move a reduction, because it is not meant to be an effective reduction, but should put to me all the points they wished cleared up on a particular Vote, and I will try to sort them out and deal with them.
If that meets the view of the Chairman and of the Committee, I will go on without moving a reduction.
If I call on the hon. Member for Whitehaven, on Salaries and Wages, we shall really begin at the beginning.
I have to raise a matter affecting the wages of employés in the parks and pleasure gardens, and I appreciate that, in raising it and in asking for an increase in wages, I have to do it in an atmosphere which is not very helpful when we are hearing so much about economies, which I hope are legitimate and wise. Yet I hope there is a feeling in the Committee that the employés in the Royal parks and pleasure gardens have not received that measure of justice that they are entitled to. I find this matter has been the subject of an interview between the representatives of the union concerned and the right hon. Gentleman, and also, I believe, of a question addressed to him in November last. My hon. Friend (Mr. Snowden) put the question, and the reply was as follows:—
"My information is that the men employed in the Royal parks receive the same rate of wages as in the London County Council parks and the Zoological Gardens, except as regards war bonuses. The difference in wages is therefore 3s. and not 6s. per week. The question whether the Royal park employés should not receive a war bonus is receiving attention."
It will be observed that the last paragraph of that reply indicates that the matter has been the subject of consideration by the Treasury and the responsible heads of Departments. I was more than surprised when I was informed that we have labourers and gardeners working in the Osborne House gardens in these times at a wage of 21s. per week. My information is that not one of these employés has received a war bonus of any kind at all, either large or small, and, in view of the answer given to my hon. Friend, I sincerely hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be in a position, considering the very low wages paid to these men even in pre-war times, and in view of the admittedly substantial increase in the cost of living, to announce an advance of wages for these men. I find that in the Dover Military School the gardeners and labourers receive a wage of 23s. per week. I think it would be true to say that probably the cost of living, including rent, at Dover, is as high as in any other place covered by the operations of the Works Department. The Hampton Court and Bushey Park men also receive 23s. per week.
I am sure the hon. Member will confine himself to establishments which are within this Vote. The Dover establishment certainly is not covered by this Vote.
I will content myself by putting the general proposition, that, in view of a deputation having waited on the right hon. Gentleman to urge their claims, and in view of the further fact that notwithstanding that the wages are admittedly low and substantially less than the average rate of wages paid by private employers of labour, it is not too much to hope that the right hon. Gentleman is now prepared to concede to these men their legitimate and reasonable demand for an increase of wages. More than one-third of the men employed on this particular class of work have, so I am informed, enlisted in His Majesty's Forces, and the inevitable result of that is that the men who remain in the employ of the State have been called upon to work undoubtedly harder than they did before. I refer to that point particularly because the right hon. Gentleman, on the occasion of the deputation interviewing him, pointed out, as a reason why in other industries advances of wages had been given, the fact that because of large withdrawals of men to the Colours those remaining had been called upon to work very much harder. I hope that all sections of this House will be in agreement with me when I say that to expect a married man with wife and family to be able to live in these times on wages of 21s., or even 23s., a week is to expect the impossible. I submit that a wage of 21s. or 23s. a week is not sufficient for any man in any part of Great Britain to meet the liabilities devolving upon him as a householder. I strongly urge the claims of these men for immediate and proper consideration.
I very cordially support the general claim of my hon. Friend the Member for Whitehaven (Mr. Richardson) in regard to these sums. I would point out to my right hon. Friend opposite that in the pensioners' scheme, which this House agreed to, a family without the husband is sometimes getting nearly as much as that to live on, so that the question of wage is really a serious question. I want specifically to refer my right hon. Friend (Mr. Harcourt) to the case of the Edinburgh park-keepers. He will notice that there are six park-keepers who are in receipt of a wage of 25s. a week. I do not know what the Committee thinks of that as a wage for a married man and his family, but it is quite obvious that if you compare that figure with some of the wages that are paid elsewhere there is too great a disparity. For instance, if the right hon. Gentleman will cast his eye on the same page of the Estimates, he will see that there is mentioned a female typist who is in receipt of 26s. a week. Of course, that female typist has only herself to maintain, and has better working conditions than part-keepers. The park-keepers have themselves and their wives and families to maintain, and they are in receipt of only 25s. a week.
They get clothes as well.
There is an allowance further down for clothing for park-keepers and gate-keepers, and I presume it is sufficient clothing for the time they are on duty. There would, of course, require to be an allowance for that, and sometimes there is an allowance for residence, but that does not apply to these men. The men in this particular class are ordinary park-keepers, and have no other privilege, I understand, but the privilege of clothes. One of the reasons, presumably, why these wages get down to this figure is that this is the kind of work which soldiers and sailors who have been slightly wounded can very easily per- form. Presumably some of these men are in receipt of pensions, and it is a very usual thing that the effect of a pension is to lower the wage. It is really a bonus on low wages. I want my right hon. Friend to avoid that, and if he can—it is not asking a very great deal, because there are only six of these men involved—I hope he will see his way to increase this wage of 25s. a week. There was some correspondence with the Office of Works on this particular matter before my right hon. Friend went there, and the case was being looked into. I think something was actually done, but I still say that 25s. a week is too little, and I hope my right hon. Friend will see his way to increase it.
I wish to resume the point that I was addressing myself to earlier in regard to Kew.
Kew does not arise on this Vote
There is an item on page 10, column A, for the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew, £295, from which it would appear that I am in order.
That is for salaries and wages of His Majesty's Office of Works employés.
I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to bear in mind how important it is to keep these appointments of park-keepers open for deserving soldiers and sailors. Although they may get a little less wage than the current market rate for gardeners and other men, I trust that these positions will be kept solely for old soldiers and sailors, and that no deviation will be allowed from that rule.
I ask your ruling, Mr. Maclean, on a point of Order. I wish to raise the question of Kew Gardens on a Vote of £8,500 on page 10 for the maintenance of Kew Gardens.
I do not know what the hon. Member is referring to. Is he referring to the ordinary salaries of gardeners and others employed there or not? The general question obviously does not arise on that.
I should like to know who are the bailiff and assistant bailiff mentioned on page 12, and where do they live?
The hon. Member for Mid-Lanark (Mr. Whitehouse) rightly assumed that, if I can prevent it, the valuable though not very ornamental buildings in St. James's Park will not remain there after the conclusion of the War. In fact, I may say, that most strict terms were laid down when they were erected by my Office that such would be the case. I would like to remind hon. Members of the great rapidity with which these buildings were erected. It was a very creditable piece of work, which was visible to Members of this House as it proceeded. There is a perfectly definite and unbreakable understanding that they are to be removed immediately after the conclusion of the War. As to the question of Kew, I am not able to deal with the point which the hon. Member would like to raise. I have no control over Kew. More than ten years ago control was handed over to the Board of Agriculture. I am not responsible for policy there. I am merely the carpenter, or glazier, of Kew; I have nothing to do with policy or control. The hon. Member for White-haven (Mr. Richardson) raised the question of the wages of park-keepers. I have seen the men, and I understand their case. I know, of course, that on all of us there is a pressure falling owing to the increased price of all commodities and of all the necessaries and minor luxuries of life. That is not a ground which the Government have been able to admit for rises in wages throughout the country. There have been war bonuses given for various reasons, but there has never been any agreement that the country is bound to raise salaries or wages merely owing to the increase in the cost of commodities. I am sorry to say that this is one of the miserable inflictions of war which we must all share, and it is one of the ways in which we all of us make our contribution to the War. I quite admit that that contribution falls more hardly upon people with a very narrow scale of wages. The hon. Member mentioned a figure of 21s. as if that was a common or an existing rate of wages for park-keepers. That is not so.
Osborne.
The Vote for Osborne has been passed. I cannot deal with that. I am informed that there is no park-keeper getting 21s. at Osborne. I will make further inquiries if the hon. Member wishes. The wages in the London parks are from 26s. to 27s. a week, and in the country parks from 25s. to 26s. I do not say it is a high wage, but it is a possible wage, and it bears comparison with the wages paid for similar occupations by private employers and others. I did submit the case of these park-keepers to the Treasury for their decision, but the Treasury decided that they would not permit an increase in their wages. I have done my part. I have put their position fairly before the Treasury, and that was the decision they came to. The hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) mentioned the case of the labourers in the Edinburgh Parks in Edinburgh. I am happy to say that recently their wages have been raised, not on the ground of increased prices, but because the local rates generally in the locality have been raised. I understand that the labourers there recently had their wages raised from 22s. to 24s. or 25s., at which they now stand. I understand that that is the local rate and is in accordance with the Fair-Wages Resolution of this House, and that substantial justice has been done to these men. In none of these cases has the rate of wages any reference to the fact that a man may be a wounded and pensioned soldier or sailor. The hon. Member for Melton Mowbray (Colonel Yate) asked that these posts should be kept open for disabled and wounded soldiers and sailors in the future. That has been very largely our habit in the past, and it will be still more our habit and intention in the future to devote as many of these places as possible to those who return from the War in a position not to take up the ordinary avocations of life, but in a position to render proper service in such a post as this.
May I point out to the right hon. Gentleman that last year item A was £95,250; this year it is £81,000 for maintenance and repairs, I presume including the laying out of beds of flowers and other matters. I am sure everyone will agree that the right hon. Gentleman and his predecessor deserve very great credit for the very beautiful way in which they have kept the parks. When I was a boy they were in a very different state. I am sure that everybody derives a great deal of pleasure from walking in the parks and seeing the beautiful plants and flowers that are growing there. That is all very well in peace time, but in war time I do not think that that ought to go on. We require a considerable staff to grow the flowers, and a considerable amount of fuel in the winter. Naturally they cannot be maintained except at a very great expenditure of money. The reduction is very small. Last year, from what I could see—and I looked into it very attentively—practically no reduction had been made in the laying out and moving of the plants, and in the general ornamental upkeep of the gardens. This year apparently some little attempt has been made at reduction. I know that the right hon. Gentleman is fond of everything that is beautiful. So am I when war is not going on. But I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he should endeavour still further to cut down this Vote. I do not intend just now actually to remove a reduction, because I hope by persuasion to effect my object. I will not say any more at the moment. I think that the right hon. Gentleman thoroughly understands my proposal. Even my right hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Lockwood), who is so fond of flowers no longer wears a flower. He is showing signs of economy and the Government should follow his example.
I hope that my right hon. Friend (Mr. Harcourt) will not for a momonet listen to the proposition made by the right hon. Baronet, who knows nothing at all about gardening. I should like to point out that an enormous reduction must have been made by the stopping of the spring bedding alone. As regards the other flowers, the expenditure has already been incurred, and practically in another month they will be bedded out. I think that the public would miss them very much in the event of their total abolition. They give an enormous pleasure to a great variety of people, not only to well-to-do people like the hon. Baronet, but also to working people and children. I think that my right hon. Friend has exercised a very wise discretion in doing away with the spring bedding, but I should be very sorry indeed to see any alteration in the arrangement of beds in the park when summer time comes.
I rise to support my right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London, because it is not merely a question now of doing what is pleasing to the eye. The question now is—and a very serious question it is for the country—how to save every single pound, shilling, and penny which we can keep in our pockets. I am sure that if the Government have shut up museums, where you can really get instruc- tion, and go in when it is wet, it is simply waste of money to have any bedding plants at all. I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he should put an end to it. The parks are open to everybody, the trees are beautiful, and if people can go there to take fresh air and exercise that ought to be enough in time of war.
My right hon. Friend has explained that he is not responsible for the administration of Kew Gardents, so I will not press him any further on that point. But the whole Vote which we are now discussing covers the charges for practically all the Royal gardens and places of historic interest which come under the Office of Works. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman: Has any charge for admission been made, owing to the War, in the case of any of these parks or public buildings for which he has official responsibility as First Commissioner of Works? I think that he will not dissent from the view that, if these charges are believed to be necessary, it is very regrettable indeed to do anything which prevents the use, especially by the children of London, of these open spaces which have been their heritage for so long. It may be a small economy in money, but it is really a very bad economy in the long run, because it means a restriction of the advantages for physical health which have hitherto been available. I trust that my right hon. Friend will resist all proposals which have been made to impose charges for admission, bearing in mind that these charges, while they do not affect wealthy people, do fall very unfairly upon working men and women, and especially upon poor children.
I feel some difficulty, in the presence of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman (Colonel Lockwood), in speaking about flowers, but I feel that I should not be doing my duty if I did not say that I agree thoroughly with the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London. At a time like this no public money should be spent on plants or on æsthetic amusements or pleasures of that sort. There is one item which has not been commented on—that of £2,450, salaries for the Edinburgh Royal Botanic Gardens and Arboretum, as against only £295 for the Royal Botanic Gardens at Kew, which are an institution, as I know, having spent a great deal of my life abroad, of world-wide importance. There is surely some discrepancy here. No one wants to grudge the beautiful city of Edinburgh anything which it can get—I am one of those who are often there—and least of all would I desire to do so. But this is a very large sum, and perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would explain it.
Which sum?
£2,450 salaries.
We have passed it.
In that event I only want to call attention to the satisfactory fact that there is an increase of some 17 per cent. in the Appropriations-in-Aid. The grazing rents are down, I presume, owing to the fact that troops are occupying the grass. That is a satisfactory reason. The licences for the sale of newspapers and refreshments are a very satisfactory development, and point to more extensive use of the parks and of open-air meals, and I hope that this will be further developed. Venison is up £50. Does that refer to venison sold from Richmond Park, or what is it? Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman can explain.
I find myself in a position of some difficulty between two right hon. Friends of mine who take very diverse views. I have often said of myself that I am a gardener by profession and a politician by accident. But I am also an economist after the type of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London. I have naturally had to struggle with my different predilections this year, but the right hon. and gallant Member will regret to hear that I have sacrificed my gardening predilections for those of a rigorous economist. The reduction is really larger than the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London quite appreciates. The reduction appears to be £14,250, but allowance must be made for the fact that there is an extra pay-day this year which adds £550. In addition, I have had to make an allowance of £1,200 for the increased cost of coal. If it had not been for those unavoidable increases the real saving in maintenance would have been £16,000. As soon as I came back to the Office of Works in May last year—because the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, who is a gardener, knows we have to consider our gardening some time in advance—I went into this very carefully and I decided that practically all expenditure should be cut down on the show of flowers in the parks.
Even in summer?
Yes, expenditure of any kind either for the spring show or the summer show. I have either turfed over or left derelict all the beds down Park Lane. I have covered over a very large number of beds, and some beds in Hampton Court. I do not regret it, because I think that it is an example which is good for people. But it is an example for which I shall be blamed later on in the year by those who will say that it is an example of squalor. I thought, however, that it was an example that was rightly set. There will be no bedding out of annuals.
What, not even of annuals?
Not in the ordinary sense of the word, but, of course, our glasshouses in the park contain a certain, number of permanent plants. It is not good economy to allow those to die of frost during the winter. I have kept in the houses the minimum of heat that is necessary to preserve the plants from frost. Such plants as exist there will be put out in the parks, but no plants will be bought and no money will be spent which can be avoided. It will be a poor show, but a fine economy. It has been suggested that some of these beds should be used for growing vegetables. That is an absurd suggestion. What I want to save is not only the expenditure on plants, but also the labour, so as to release men to go to the Colours and into other occupations.
I am very much, obliged.
Will the right hon. Gentleman see his way to have his remarks printed and sent round to all the other Government Departments?
I can hardly hope that the circulation of my remarks would produce so great effect as that on my colleagues in other Departments, but I shall take steps to see that my colleagues visit the parks during the worst of the summer time.
May I point out that annuals might be laid down in the beds along Park Lane?
Annuals require a great deal of attention in thinning, weeding, etc. I think the right hon. Gentleman will have to wait and see.
Could not the right hon. Gentleman grow tobacco?
I could not grow tobacco worth smoking.
Well, I can.
5.0 P.M.
I shall expect a sample. The hon. Member for Mid-Lanark asked whether there was a charge made for admittance to any park under my control. No, Sir, none; and I hope there never will be. There is a charge for Holyrood Palace and Hampton Court in order to cover the cost of watching and policing, but there is no charge for admission to the gardens or any of the parks in those places. In regard to the venison in the Royal Parks, it is distributed by warrant by the First Commissioner of Works, and when it is desirable to decrease the head of deer in these parks the fees therefrom will increase.
Question put, and agreed to.
HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS.— Class I
Motion made, and Question proposed, 4. "That a sum, not exceeding £24,600, be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1917, for Houses of Parliament Buildings." [NOTE. — £25,000 has been voted on account.]
I desire to call attention to the position of the Rodin Statue of the "Burghers of Calais," which, as hon. Members know, is close to the Victoria Tower. I am not aware of the circumstances in which this statue came into our possession, but I am aware that it is a very fine and handsome piece of work. It is one of the very finest examples of pathetic expression ever seen in statuary. The point I desire to call attention to is that the statue is placed in such a position, and at such a high elevation, that it cannot be properly seen to be appreciated. It is not like one of the Greek statues, the contours and lines of which can be seen at a considerable distance and admired, but it requires the spectator to get close to the statue of the burghers to see the marvellous expression which M. Rodin has put into the features. It has been, I understand, placed in its present position against the wish of M. Rodin, and in a French book lately published it is expressly stated that this is one of the types of statuary which is intended to be on a level with the person looking at it. At present the statue is, as I have said, in a position where it cannot possibly be seen. It is placed on a pedestal which is too high, and, while I do not suggest that it should be brought to the level of the spectator, yet I think the pedestal might be reduced to one-third its present height. I trust it may be found possible, without any considerable cost, to remove the statue to a more favourable position, where it can be seen and generally admired. I would like the hon. Gentleman to tell us how this statue came into our possession, and how it happens to have been placed in the position to which I have referred.
In regard to Item (6), I simply refer to it in order that the right hon. Gentleman may say what position we are in with regard to the repair of the roof of Westminster Hall, how that work is getting on, and when it is likely to be finished.
I desire to call attention to Item ( d ), in reference to which I have put down an Amendment for the reduction of the Vote, but which I will not move. I desire to refer first and chiefly to the lighting of the Houses of Parliament. I have no complaint to make; on the contrary, I am most grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for the reductions which have been made right through these Estimates, and which do great credit to him and also to the permanent staff and its head, Sir Lionel Earle. But even in war time Members' eyesight is a subject of very great importance. I submit that it is common ground that the unshaded electric light is very injurious to the human eye. On several occasions I have brought this subject before my right hon. Friend, who has always received my remarks with the most kindly attention. It was at my instance he abolished the naked light in the Members' Lobby. I wish him to carry that process further in this House, as overhead lighting is particularly trying in producing headaches and being bad for the eyes. I deprecated the introduction of the overhead electric light in this Chamber, though it has not proved prejudicial, but when the door in the left-hand corner of the Reporters' Gallery, the occupants of which stand in need of no further illumination, is opened, a garish unshaded electric light strikes down here, to the intense discomfort of Members. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to completely and utterly abolish the clear glass round the actual wire and substitute frosted glass. Throughout England the most accepted form of light is a kind of convolvulus round the little lamp inside. This convolvulus cover is generally frosted, but the bulb inside is clear and unshaded, and the cruel wire burns up the optic nerve, bursts through the brain, and strikes to the other side of the head, owing to its being completely clear and unshaded.
In the dining-room of the House the lights overhead strike the eyes of hon. Members when they enter. In a private dining-room when the dinner is served the lights are turned down, but in the dining-room of the House of Commons there is a full battery of naked lights beating down pitilessly from the roof on the unprotected eyes of hon. Members. I have seen hon. Members in the House cowering for shelter under their hat brims, which they cannot do at dinner—in short, Members not gifted with the eyes of hawks or eagles find it a positive pain to dine in the dining-room. I would ask my right hon. Friend if he cannot adopt the holophane light, which, of course, is far the best, but which is undoubtedly very expensive. He might introduce a light such as that in the Harcourt Room downstairs, which is well lighted, but even there the glass dish, I think, should be frosted. In point of fact, for the preservation of the eyesight of hon. Members, anything like a clear lamp exposing the electric wire should be absolutely tabooed, and should be considered wholly unworthy of the dignity and comfort of Imperial Parliament. Particularly should my right hon. Friend taboo, abolish and utterly destroy the convolvulus kind of light which obtains in the dining-room, where the lighting really is still of the most barbarous description. It is not the right hon. Gentleman's fault at all, but I trust he will see his way to deal with the suggestion I have made. I think it would not cost very much to substitute, for the clear glass bulbs, frosted bulbs, which my right hon. Friend, at my instance, introduced into the Members' Lobby. If he will do that, I for one, and I think other Members also, although they have not raised this matter in Debate, will support the right hon. Gentleman in the matter.
In regard to the warming and ventilation of the Houses of Parliament, I would submit that this Chamber is very much over-warmed. Possibly Members may not think so, but, if I am right, and a reduction was effected in the warming of the House, there would be a saving of fuel. I submit that we have here a glorious opportunity of setting an example which may be followed all over the country. As regards ventilation, spring is somewhere within reach—I think we may assume so—and we shall then have warmer weather. I think if we abolish the system of ventilation which is now resorted to and revert to the system of open windows, which was intended by Divine Providence, I believe the right method of ventilation, as compared with the exceedingly artificial system now existing in this Chamber, will then have been found for this Chamber, and there would be a consequent further saving of labour. The present system of ventilation—which I abhor—is extremely expensive. The open-window system might be followed perfectly well here, because we are not so near the street that we would suffer from noises. The only inconvenience would be when barges laden with evil-smelling products pass down the Thames. But that has only, in my experience, occurred once or twice in eleven or twelve years, when the windows were partially open. I submit that the windows could be opened without the slightest inconvenience being suffered in this Chamber from the passage of barges. I appeal to my right hon. Friend to take into account what I have said about lighting; secondly, what I have said about warming; and thirdly, what I have submitted with regard to ventilation. Here is a great opportunity for greater economy, combined with hygiene and comfort and everything else for hon. Members.
I am sure all Members of the House who had the pleasure of listening to the speech of the hon. Member (Sir J. D. Rees) will be very grateful to him for having drawn the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of Works to the state of the House as it affects the comfort and convenience of those Members, especially those of us who are growing old, and I need not say weary, in the service of the House. We are particularly grateful to the hon. Gentleman, because his observations may have the effect of preserving whatever remnants of eyesight the affairs of the nation have left us, and, also, the few of us who have to cower under the brims of our hats will have the benefit of the improvements that may follow his observation. I may say that I deplore the passing away of the old custom of the wearing of hats in the House. To-day, when the hon. Gentleman regaled us with his eloquent, apt, and proper observations, only two Members of the House have been cowering beneath the brims of their hats—myself, and, pardon me for putting myself first, as I ought to have alluded first of all to the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City (Sir F. Banbury), who still adheres to the old venerable custom of wearing his hat and cowering beneath the brim. This House always looked more interesting in the old days that I can recall, thirty-one years ago, when I first entered the House, when you could see a large number of Members frock-coated and tall-hatted. I need only refer the artistic Members of the House to the representation of it made by Harry Furness when, from some point of vantage in the roof of the House, he depicted the House showing a surface of hats, and so great were the talents of that eminent artist that any hon. Member might distinguish his friends by looking at the tops of the hats. I therefore appreciated the eloquent observations of the hon. Gentleman. I did not rise, however, to emphasise or reinforce, if that were necessary, the questions that he brought before the right hon. Gentleman.
I feel in duty bound to do two things. The first is to ask the right hon. Gentleman some questions concerning certain pictures in another place in which I have felt considerable interest for many years. I allude to the two, what shall I call them? I shall now, I believe, have to call them panels. They used to be alluded to in times past as frescoes, but I believe they are no longer so. I refer to those wonderful pictures, the product of the genius of my fellow citizen, Dan Maclise, of the city of Cork, Ireland, namely the "Death of Nelson" and the "Meeting of Wellington and Blucher," two pictures which are perhaps more engraved and published than any two of the eighteenth century. They are well known, not only in the Dominions-beyond-the-Seas, but in all European countries and in the United States of America, because of the extensive publication of copies and engravings. It was a matter of grief to me and to many of my friends in Ireland who are artists, some of them now, indeed, most of them, passed away, who were admirers of Dan Maclise, that those pictures were fast fading into obscurity. I drew the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact years ago, and. I have now to acknowledge that my representations regarding those works of art did not fall in vain upon his ears. He has done what was possible to be done to preserve the appearance, at all events, of those pictures which were fading away, and whose disappearance would have been, a loss to the nation. It was said that Dan Maclise used material either for the paste or in his work which was defective, or that the paints which he used were of such a character as not to stand the test of time and circumstances. It was thought also that those pictures suffered from their proximity to the fumes and effluvia of those damaging emanations from the works across the water, Doulton and other porcelain works. In the manufacture of pottery certain commodities are used and thrown into the fire, and certain ingredients from which there are fumes, which are very damaging to stone, to canvass, to paintings in the vicinity of those emanations.
Having drawn the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the great danger of those pictures being lost to the nation, I want to acknowledge that he did make every effort possible to preserve them. A report was asked for from Sir James Church, I think, and he supplied a report which was very useful. Much later the right hon. Gentleman furnished me with a Report by an eminent Scottish artist, which went to the root of the case. He pointed out how these pictures could be preserved. Not only was that Report sought, for, but it was acted upon by the right hon. Gentleman, and that is why I said that the pictures had ceased to be frescoes and had become panels. By retouching they have been absolutely renewed, not according to the process which produces frescoes, but according to a process which has made them probably modern paintings. There will be very little of the actual work of Dan Maclise existing in a very short space of time, but there will be something, at all events, to show and represent what was the work of Dan Maclise, and that in itself will be a great deal. I thank the right hon. Gentleman most sincerely, not only for the report, which I took good care to have published in the principal newspapers of Ireland, but I am glad to say that those who are interested in these pictures in Ireland are grateful to him also because he followed the recommendations of that report, and is following them still, I believe. I shall be glad to know whether that is so or not. I am satisfied, after many years of anxiety about these pictures, with what the right hon. Gentleman has done. I desire to convey to him most sincerely my own heartfelt thanks for what he has done for these pictures, and also the thanks and appreciation of every Irishman in Ireland and out of it who is interested in the works of Dan Maclise, the national painter, who has reflected credit upon his own country and upon this, and who has done much not only for the art of Ireland and of England, but has done more perhaps than any other single man for the beauty and decoration of the Houses of Parliament.
I am much obliged to my hon. Friend the Member for North Kildare (Mr. J. O'Connor) for what he has said about the Maclise panels. I know the interest he has taken in them for many years, and he knows that I have not been unresponsive to the representations made to me with regard to them. He has referred to the reports which were called for and received, and I can assure him I shall watch carefully for any deterioration which may show itself in the future. The hon. Member for Monmouth Boroughs (Mr. L. Haslam) asked me a question about the Rodin Statue of the "Burghers of Calais," which is now in the new gardens beside the Victoria Tower. It came into our possession as the very splendid and generous gift from the National Arts Collection Fund. It was difficult to select a position, and we thought that perhaps the best thing to do would be to invite M. Rodin to come here himself. He did so, and we pointed out to him six or eight possible places, and invited him to say the place which he thought best. He selected the place in which it is standing to-day. My hon. Friend made some criticism, as to the height of the pedestal. I admit that to many people it does seem unduly high. It is not an easy thing to decide, and we thought that perhaps no advice would be so good as that of the sculptor. He told us that he designed the group for a pedestal sixteen feet high, and had experimented with pedestals of various heights in his own studio, and had come to the conclusion that a pedestal of that height and of that form was the proper one for his statue. It is precisely on that height which M. Rodin prescribed that the statue stands now. We took the best steps we could by getting the opinion of the artist himself as to the best method of exhibiting the work. My hon. Friend referred to a replica of the statue which is on a low base at Calais, but M. Rodin entirely disapproves of that arrangement.
My remarks were based on what appeared in a recently published book.
That, no doubt, is the opinion of the writer, but it is not the opinion of M. Rodin on the group. My hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) asked what about the roof of Westminster Hall, and how it was getting on. We are going on slowly with it. We do not want to spend more money than is necessary, but we cannot stop the work altogether, as part of it is in a dangerous condition. You have got immense travelling platforms supporting the structure and it would be ludicrous and undesirable to leave them there with no work. So pressing is it that I will not mind telling my hon. Friend a secret. A very short time ago one of the great beams of the roof broke the corbel on which it rested, and although it had nothing to rest on it did not tumble down, why I do not know, excepts perhaps that the whole building is so infected with vis inertiæ that it held up rather than fall down.
That does not apply to the Government.
The Government are always on the move, and are kept so. It will also be necessary to restate the roof of Westminster Hall. Many of the present slates are so soft that you could put your finger through them quite easily. I shall try by a mixture of slates to reproduce the present mottled effect of Westminster Hall roof, which adds greatly to the appearance, and not have a great monotonous sweep of one unbroken colour. I now come to the hon. Member for East Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees) and his unshaded light. I know that he has a great desire for frosted light in as many places in the House as possible.
Everywhere !
I became aware only a day or two ago of his desire for frosted or obscured bulbs in the dining-room. It will, I hope, be some tribute to my attention to his desires when I tell him that to-day, before his complaint was made, frosted bulbs had been placed there, so that in the Ministers' or Members' dining-room he will be able to experiment with them to-night. When the hon. Member asks for frosted bulbs, does he mean that we should have frosted bulbs of the same candle-power as at present, with, consequently, a greatly decreased light, or does he mean that we should have higher-power bulbs but frosted so as to decrease the glare?
I think decreased light would be an additional blessing.
It is impossible to satisfy all Members. We suffer in various ways. I personally, when my eyes begin to fail, like more light. I think that increased brightness rather excites the optic nerve. Other people suffer greatly from the glare. It is extremely difficult to meet all tastes, but I try my best. I cannot go to the great expense—and it would be a great expense—of substituting frosted bulbs for clear everywhere, but I will in some places, and the hon. Member must take refuge in the frosted corners which I am able to provide for him. I might point out that using ground-glass bulbs in the place of clear ones decreases the amount of light given by 15 per cent. As to the warming of the House, that is a question of perennial difficulty. The hon. Member finds the House too warm. I think the temperature is 61 degrees now. I do not think it is too warm; I very often think it is too cold. There are Members who sit on the same bench with the hon. Member who complain to me bitterly because the House is very chilly and there is an abominable draught.
Do they not complain about their legs only, and is not that due to the system of ventilation?
If you ventilate a building like this from the floor, it is inevitable that there must be draught about the legs, because you cannot ventilate it from anywhere else. When the hon. Member suggests that the House should be ventilated by opening the windows, I think with sorrow of the hours I must have wasted in trying to convince the House that that would be absolutely ruinous to the system of ventilation in force. I will not go into the question again. We shall never be able to satisfy everybody about the ventilation. The whole system of ventilation here depends upon there being a very powerful exhaust fan which draws the air through a washing and purifying chamber. The air comes up through the floor under the benches, being sucked up by the ventilating fan. It is possible to change every particle of air in this House in about four minutes. I have tested it myself. I have put a smoke-rocket into the ventilating places below, and filled the chamber with smoke, and I have had it completely clear in four minutes. That is efficient ventilation. If you open the windows, the exhaust fan satisfies its hunger or thirst for air from those windows. It sucks the fresh air into the roof, and leaves hon. Members down below in the foul air. Therefore, the ventilation is damaged every time there is an open window. I am afraid I have given the hon. Member no satisfaction, except, perhaps, in the matter of the ground-glass bulbs.
With regard to a room downstairs in which the electric light has been placed—I believe the cost has been between £5,000 and £6,000—the room is never occupied or used at all. Is the right hon. Gentleman in a position to say what he is going to do with it? He knows the room to which I refer.
I was not responsible for that. It was done before I returned to the Office of Works. I think it was intended originally for an additional tearoom, but when it was completed the Kitchen Committee declined to serve teas there or to take it over in any way. It is a very beautiful room, and some very fine work has been put into it. I thought it might be used by Members for sitting in, and at first I put up a prohibition of smoking, because the room is not suited for that purpose from the ventilation point of view. But nobody went into it. I removed the prohibition, and still nobody went there. I had a few evening newspapers put there; still it was a blank. Ultimately I asked the Serjeant-at-Arms' Department to put some writing paper and ink bottles there, but I do not know what the result has been. I believe the blotting paper is still as virgin as on the day it was put there. May I suggest to hon. Members that they should encourage their friends to meet them there? It is really a beautiful room, and I hope they will occasionally use it. It was not intended to be open to strangers, but I am quite open to suggestions as to whether, perhaps, after the War is over, afternoon tea might not be served there in the summer. At present it cannot be used for entertaining purposes, but I hope hon. Members will get into the habit of using it themselves.
Can the right hon. Gentleman hold out any hopes of constructing a lift from the cloak-room by what is known as the Members' old staircase? Many of us would welcome a lift on that side of the House. Also will he take into consideration the provision of an annunciator in the tea-room?
I am afraid I cannot do either of those things in war time, as I am trying to reduce my Vote. A lift is a very expensive matter, and I do not believe the hon. and gallant Member has the least idea of how costly a work it is to install an annunciator and maintain it. I do not think it would be fair to lead him to hope that even after the War I shall be able to put a lift at the place where he wishes one. I believe there are great structural difficulties in the way. I would remind him that there are three very good lifts now available for Members. There is one at the Ladies' Gallery. staircase, another near the dining-room, and a third near the Members' smoking-room.
They are all on the other, side of the building.
Yes, but I cannot move them to the other side. There is a further argument against the suggested annunciator. If you have an annunciator in the tea-room Members are likely to sit there much longer, especially if the names on the annunciator are not attractive. It is very desirable that Members should not be encouraged to sit in the tea-room for a longer period than is necessary for the consumption of tea, because it is very crowded, and provides very insufficient space for Members who wish to go there. Therefore I do not wish to give them any reason for remaining there such as an annunciator might possibly provide.
Question put, and agreed to.
MISCELLANEOUS LEGAL BUILDINGS, GREAT BRITAIN.—Class I
Resolved,
5. "That a sum, not exceeding £23,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1917, for Expenditure in respect of Miscellaneous Legal Buildings." [NOTE.—£25,000, has been voted on account.]
ART AND SCIENCE BUILDINGS, GREAT BBITAIN.—Class I
Motion made, and Question proposed,
6. "That a sum, not exceeding £43,200, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1917, for Expenditure in respect of Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain." [NOTE.—£27,000 has been voted on account.]
I should like an explanation—I suppose there is a good one—in regard to the item for the new science building at South Kensington, where the probable expenditure to the 31st March, 1916, is £21,490, and the Vote required for 1916–7 is £12,150. There is also £4,000 required for the Royal Scottish Museum. I was wondering if there was good and sufficient reason for continuing these building operations at this rate of expenditure.
This is a re-Vote for the science buildings at South Kensington. It is due to the delay caused by the difficulty of obtaining labour and materials since the outbreak of the War. It is proposed to close down the work for the time being on the completion of the existing contract for the main block. It would be uneconomic not to complete the present block, and this is merely a re-Vote owing to delay. Precisely the same applies to the Royal Scottish Museum. It is proposed there to prepare one hall for the reception of exhibits. With that exception the work will be closed down on the completion of the present contract.
Question put, and agreed to.
DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR BUILDINGS.— Class I
Motion made, and Question proposed,
7. "That a sum, not exceeding £17,900, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1917, for Expenditure in respect of Diplomatic and Consular Buildings, and for the Maintenance of certain Cemeteries Abroad." [NOTE.—£12,000 has, been voted on account.]
For the provision of water supply, heating system, electrical generating plant, and ice-making plant at Peking, the original estimate was £13,800, while the revised total estimate is £21,500. That seems an enormous increase on the original estimate. I should be obliged if the right hon. Gentleman could give us some explanation.
The Vote to which my right hon. Friend refers is one of respectable antiquity. It has appeared in the Estimates for some years. Do I correctly understand that with this £600 it will finally come to an end?
Yes.
That is comforting. As regards maintenance and repairs, will the right hon. Gentleman tell me what are the allowances to certain Ministers amounting to £290? It is a somewhat mysterious item. What is being done in respect of the Embassy at Berlin, the Ambassadorial Palace at Constantinople, and also the official residence at Vienna? How are they being protected at present?
I am afraid I cannot give a general answer to the right hon. Baronet. As the hon. Member behind him has said, the item he refers to has been a very long time in the Votes, and is perhaps somewhat changed from its original form. I am told that the change is due to difficulties in the work, which has departed from the original plan—water in the.foundation—and all sorts of other things. The matter has not arisen in my time. Therefore I must confess I am not very conversant with it, but I understand that the amount asked for will close the work. Accidents may have happened, there may have been other requirements which were subsequently discovered, and additions which were made after the original plans were drawn up. In regard to the inquiry of the hon. Gentleman (Sir J. D. Rees) as to the Embassies at Berlin, Vienna, and Constantinople, by the courtesy of the American Government, the United States Amabassadors are looking after the maintenance of these Embassies, and I have no doubt that the work is being admirably done.
Question put, and agreed to.
REVENUE BUILDINGS.—Class I
Motion made, and Question proposed,
8. "That a sum, not exceeding;£350,600, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1917, for Customs and Excise, Inland Revenue, Post Office and Telegraph Buildings in Great Britain, and certain Post Offices Abroad." [NOTE.—£230,000 has been Voted on account.]
I should like to ask one or two questions as to items re Works in Progress in the London District, Mount Pleasant Sub-station and Boiler House ( re Vote). I find that £16,400 was the original estimate, that the revised estimate is £20,500, and the amount now required is £7,000. I note also that in the North-Western District the original estimate was £51,600, the revised estimate is £58,520, and the amount now required is £10,360. I daresay it is impossible, without causing a waste of money, to terminate operations on some buildings for the moment, but it appears to me that it is not quite necessary to spend this sum of money at the present time. I see to-day in one of the newspapers a statement on behalf of the Government saying that excavators and other people are required; therefore I think these operations, where possible, should be stopped. I should like some explanation from the right hon. Gentleman. On a subsequent page of the Estimates is the Birmingham New Parcel Office. I see the original estimate is £50,880, the revised estimate is £70,000—which is a very large increase, while £12,000 is to be spent this year. There, again, there may be an explanation, but it does really seem to me that an increase from £50,000 to £70,000 shows very bad estimating. The right hon. Gentleman will remember that during the last two or three years some of us on this side of the House have drawn attention to the bad estimating of the Office of Works. It has been drawn attention to in a report of the Estimates Committee, of which I have the honour to be chairman. I should like to see some little improvement in the matter of estimating, so that the original estimates are more closely adhered to.
In the Mount Pleasant case the revision of the estimate is due to high tendering because of the increase in war prices, and in the North-Western District office the revised estimate is due to the same reason, and also to a change in the requirements. I have, of course, really less to do with the Post Office buildings than I have, in the way of control, over many other of these Votes. It is a matter which is settled between the Post Office and the Treasury. It is for them to be satisfied as to the necessity of these buildings. I really have to take their orders. Because they change their plans and require more accommodation, it must not be supposed that my Office has made a bad estimate. That consideration especially applies to the case of Birmingham. There was an enormous difference here. It was through no error, but after the original estimate was prepared the scheme had to be greatly enlarged, and this had to be provided for. These things cannot be explained and exposed on the surface of the Vote, but I am glad to be able to say for my Office that this is not at all a case of bad estimating.
There is one point to which I should like to draw attention. It has been customary for some years for the Office of Works to make a total estimate of the amount they expected to spend during the year, showing the buildings on which the money was going to be spent, and then to make a lump sum reduction from the total, so reducing the amount voted; because they knew from experience that they would not be able to carry out, possibly through local circumstances, trade disturbances, and one thing and another, the whole of the buildings they had on the Paper. In 1915–16 they made such a reduction of £40,000, but I think they did not spend even the reduced sum of £325,000. This year I notice that, having cut down the estimate to a very low figure—to £111,000—they make no lump sum reduction. I can imagine that the right hon. Gentleman will say to me that they will get through this work during the year. Is he quite sure of that? The causes that prevent the carrying out of estimated work are varied, are local, relate to the interpretation of deeds, the selection of the site, or delay of other sorts. These causes cannot be foreseen.
I confess I am not quite satisfied with the right hon. Gentleman's reply to the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London. Not that I impute anything to him personally, but it seems to me that the system is not quite right. Did I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that the Departments issue orders or give instructions to him, and that if they change their minds, as in the case of the post office at Mount Pleasant or Birmingham, he has no say whatever in the matter; that he has simply to take their instructions, and that building, at what ever price, is decided by the Treasury and the Departments concerned? Surely that is not a very satisfactory way of carrying on this business! At all events, I presume the right hon. Gentleman sends a communication pointing out how they have misjudged the situation from the beginning, how their changed plans have caused much extra expense to the public, especially at the present time, and to express a hope that they will be more careful in the future? His story, which, no doubt, is the correct one, removes, it seems to me, all control from this Committee, because when we come to the right hon. Gentleman on this Vote, and say, "You are spending so much more on these particular items than the original estimate provided for; how is it?" he answers simply, "It has nothing to do with me; I am simply—
No, no!
"I am only taking instructions from the Offices concerned." Therefore we have no control here. The right hon. Gentleman does not take the responsibility. When the Vote for the Post Office and the Vote for the Treasury comes on we shall be told, "Oh, that has been, settled by the Office of Works." Therefore the control of this Committee over this expenditure is absolutely nil. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will explain a little further. It may be my stupidity, but I do not understand where the actual control comes in.
It may be that I expressed myself badly, but what I meant to say was that the Post Office buildings-do not originate with me. There are certain requirements put forward by the Post Office. They say, it may be, that they want a post office of a certain size. The plans are drawn and approved by the Post Office, but it is quite possible that before the building has been actually begun, or after, that a change takes place. It may be desirable in a particular district to have the telephone service in the same building; it may be some change in the ventilation; it may be that local difficulties were greater than were anticipated. Of course, I point out to them that that means a revised tender or a revised contract. They admit that. All that I meant to say with respect to certain heads of these Votes is that the work originates with the Department concerned An endeavour is made to meet the requirements of the public service as economically as possible. As to the question on the lump sum reduction, the explanation is that with a much smaller total of new construction this year it is impossible to make a lump sum reduction.
6.0 P.M.
I quite understand the difficulty which the right hon. Gentleman is in in regard to the Post Office. I quite understand also the meaning of my hon. Friend behind me, but unless I am mistaken this is the only opportunity of criticising this expenditure. I do not think that the Vote will appear again in the Post Office or the Treasury Vote. Therefore, though the right hon. Gentleman is undoubtedly in rather a difficult position in being pressed on both sides by the hon. Member and myself for economy and by the Post Office for expenditure, still it is to the right hon. Gentleman to whom we apply in a desire to ensure any economy in this particular Vote. I infer from what the right hon. Gentleman has said that he has pointed out to the Post Office that there is no more expensive way, no better way, of wasting money than by having a plan and then altering it after you have got your contract, or going to the contractor and asking him to modify his plans. That is a most expensive way of spending money—at least, that is my experience so far as it goes, and I understand it is the experience of the right hon. Gentleman. I am glad, therefore, that he has, as I understood, made some representation on that matter to the Post Office. The Post Office is a very great offender in this respect, for I see on page 39 that in Scotland—and I am glad there are one or two Scottish Members here—there is an original Estimate for Post Office extension at Dundee of £10,700, which has now been increased to £20,220, and the actual sum required is £8,500. I trust the right hon. Gentleman will give some explanation upon that, because it is in the Post Office Vote. I do not propose to go through every item in the long list, but nearly every item shows an increase on the original Estimate. It is nearly always a revised Estimate. I do trust the right hon. Gentleman will impress upon the Post Office the advisability of endeavouring, as far as possible, to find out what they want, and when they have found out what they want and have got a plan, that they should abide by it. Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly explain the Dundee item?
Dundee, again, is due entirely to a far larger scheme.
I hope my right hon. Friend will seriously consider the question brought forward by the hon. Baronet. It is a very old game, this underestimating. I remember we brought it forward more than twenty years ago, and we had a promise from the member of the Government representing the Office of Works at that time that some better system should be adopted. They come with official estimates of the cost of a building, they get us pledged to the building to that amount, and then the following year they come and ask for more money. Now, in private practice, if an architect was to carry out his business in that way, he would lose every client because of leading them to go in for buildings and underestimating the amount. I should like to have a promise from my right hon. Friend that he will seriously consider this question of underestimating. I dare say there will always be occasions when you will meet with extra expenditure, but, generally speaking, professional men can estimate pretty, closely the cost of these things, and, as a rule, they overestimate rather than underestimate. But, in connection with the Government, there are so many cases of underestimating that I should like to have an understanding from the right hon. Gentleman that he will seriously consider this question as to whether some better system could not be adopted, whereby, in, pledging this Committee to a certain expenditure, there will be some reasonable hope that it will not be exceeded as it is at the present time.
I am quite willing to give the promise that I will do what I can, as I have endeavoured in the past, to keep the Estimates as near as possible to the true amount. For my own purpose it would be quite simple to put up the Estimates on all these buildings, and at the end be able to show a saving; but it would not be desirable or very honest. What I try to do is to bring these figures before the House as near as possible to the amount to be spent. Of course, if a scheme is enlarged, it is absurd to say it is an error or a blunder that the sum should exceed that estimated for the smaller scheme. I will endeavour to keep the Estimates as near as I can.
Question put, and agreed to.
INSURANCE AND LABOUR EXCHANGE BUILDINGS, GREAT BRITAIN.—Class I
Motion made, and Question proposed,
9. "That a sum, not exceeding £91,900, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1917, in respect of Insurance and Labour Exchange Buildings, Great Britain."—[NOTE.—£56,000 has been voted on account.]
This Vote exhibits a satisfactory decrease of something like 35 per cent.; but what has become of the very large provision last year—£80,000, so far as I remember—for the Labour Exchange of Cardiff. If it has disappeared, I am very glad; but that does not generally happen in an item like that in an Estimate. There are two buildings in Cardiff to which reference is made, but no provision is made in either case for a Grant in 1916–17. As regards Bristol, there is an estimate of £10,000 revised into one of £23,000—a very large increase—and only £100 is required this year, although £15,000 is apparently required to complete it. I do not quite know why there is that very large increase, and only £100 is being provided this year. That, no doubt, is explicable, and the reasons no doubt are such as the Committee can approve. What I chiefly want to know, however, is what has become of the Labour Exchange at Cardiff?
At Bristol the works have been suspended altogether, and the £100 is necessary for the protection of adjoining property only. At Cardiff the work hag been suspended, and the case is being met by the hiring of premises for the present. The big scheme is altogether suspended at present, but I cannot say what will happen in the future.
May I point out that the items in the last three columns relating to the acquisition of a site and erection of a building at Bristol do not come to revised total Estimate. The right hon. Gentleman wants £100 for 1916–17, and a further amount to complete the service of £15,160. The sum voted is £7,500. If you add those together; they do not come to the revised total Estimate.
They ought to, and in future they shall; but the "probable expenditure to 31st March, 1916," has also to be added to arrive at the Revised Total Estimate.
Question put, and agreed to.
PUBLIC BUILDINGS, GREAT BRITAIN.— Class I
Motion made, and Question proposed,
10. "That a sum, not exceeding £141,400, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1917, in respect of sundry Public Buildings in Great Britain, not provided for on other Votes."—[NOTE.—£483,000 has been voted on account.]
Here, also, there is a very satisfactory decrease, but I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman concerning a question in which I am much interested, the adaptation of the School of Oriental Languages. The Estimate of £20,000 was revised into £23,000. To a casual passer-by it would not appear that very expensive works are in progress at the school, but the Vote required for 1916–17 is £4,950. That, I gather, would complete the alterations necessary for this adaptation. Does the right hon. Gentleman expect—I presume he does— that that amount will be spent, and that at the end of this financial year the building will be ready for the Orientals to enter and take possession thereof? Also, will the right hon. Gentleman kindly explain the item on Page 52 under (E), "Coal and firewood," which has increased from £75,000 to £91,000, no doubt due to the greater number of offices. I do not quite understand the provision on Page 53, "Stores to be purchased for works services generally (including freight and handling charges)," of £89,000 for public buildings. Would the right hon. Gentleman explain that particular amount—why so much as £89,000 is wanted? The only other question I want to ask is regarding the statement on Page 46 that provision is also made in separate Estimates for Maintenance, etc., of Revenue Buildings, Class I., £580,000; ditto, Revenue Departments, £603,000; Insurance and Labour Exchange Buildings, £147,000. Do those large amounts refer to the buildings in progress? Where do we see in these Estimates, for instance, mention of the great office which is being completed in Whitehall alongside the big block containing the India, Colonial, and Foreign Offices? I have looked, but cannot find it.
The cost of the new public offices here was provided out of a Budget surplus some years ago, and therefore it has not to be voted now.
It was voted in a block?
Yes, I should think about eight or nine years ago, in my early time at the Office of Works in 1908, and therefore we have been saved all annual votes ever since. The larger provision for coal, to which the hon. Member has referred, is entirely due to the very heavy increase in the cost of coal. The hon. Member's last question was whether the expenditure provided for the London Institution for Oriental Studies will complete the work. I believe it will. I think it should be completed this year.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any information as to when the contingent works on the National Portrait Gallery of Scotland will be completed?
I wish to call attention to an item which occurs several times on page 52, namely, "Compensation for the withdrawal of sick leave privileges." Will my hon. Friend explain what that means?
I would if I could, but I am afraid I should find it extremely difficult to make it intelligible; but it has to do really with the National Insurance Act. When the national insurance against sickness was introduced a number of these employés came under the Insurance Act. They lost some of the privileges, and they were given certain compensation.
I notice in the Vote, "Health Insurance: Employers' Contributions," besides.
This is the contribution due under the Act in respect of the men directly employed by the Department.
With reference to the Appropriations-in-Aid, No. 2, "Admission fees, Tower of London, Armouries, Carnarvon Castle, etc.," the amount involved is a trifle of some £3,500, but I have tried to urge the Government to economy in several ways this afternoon, and at this moment I rather wish them to forego this £3,500. I would not on an ordinary occasion ask them to forego fees for entrance to the Tower of London and other places when, as a matter of policy, the Government have closed a large number of museums and have diminished the facili- ties for instruction and recreation, but I would urge that they should forego for the period of the War this £3,500 which they are going to get through imposing fees on the Tower of London and other places of public interest which they have under their jurisdiction. It is a small matter, but I think the right hon. Gentleman might make this concession.
Perhaps the hon. Member will hardly press this point when I inform him that all soldiers, sailors, and Belgian refugees are admitted free to the Tower of London, and therefore I think we may well take a little money out of the civilians to help us in this matter. In reply to the question put to me by the hon. Member for Wigtownshire (Mr. Dalrymple), I cannot answer him now, but I will make inquiries and communicate with the hon. Member.
I wish to ask a question in regard to the item under Appropriations-in-Aid of £37,000 this year, which last year was £12,000. I mean the item for receipts from rents of houses on the Arsenal Housing Estate at Woolwich. Will the right hon. Gentleman state the reason for this difference?
Last year only a very small number of these houses had been completed, and now they have all been completed and are paying their full rents. They are occupied entirely by workers at the Woolwich Arsenal. I am sure my hon. Friend will fully appreciate what has been done in this direction.
OFFICE OF WORKS AND PUBLIC BUILDINGS.— Class II
Motion made, and Question proposed,
26. "That a sum, not exceeding £88,700, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1917, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Commissioners of His Majesty's Works and Public Buildings."—[NOTE.—£67,000 has been voted on account.]
This Vote raises the question of the salaries of the staff of my right hon. Friend's Department and incidentally his own salary. I am not going to make any suggestion with regard to the right hon. Gentleman's salary, although I know he is one of the sufferers from the War with regard to salary, but, happily, owing to the good feeling prevailing between Members of the Government, his salary is not quite so small as it looks on paper. I wish to ask how our old friend, Mr. Montagu Meyer, is going on and what amount he has received up to the present in salary and commission. Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us what the grand total is? Can he inform us what commissions have been paid to other brokers under the control of Mr. Meyer? I would like to ask also how many men of military age are still employed by the right hon. Gentleman's Department, distinguishing between married and unmarried?
I notice that when the First Commissioner is in the Cabinet there are certain salaries allowed for private secretaries, and I am interested to know what is the custom in regard to that? Does it apply to the heads of all Departments when they are in the Cabinet? Another point I wish to raise is in regard to the wages of charwomen. My right hon. Friend will notice that the sum is lumped at £1,350 this year, as against £1,250 last year. I hope that means that there has been an increase in payments to charwomen. I would remind the House that the women who clean the Government offices are not so conveniently situated as others engaged in that kind of work, because they have to travel to the offices in the morning and go back to their homes at night. When this fact is taken into consideration, it will be seen that these women are paid a very small sum, because they have to spend in London a certain proportion of their wages in getting to and from their work. This Estimate shows only a very small reduction; in fact, it is one of the smallest we have, the reduction being from £146,000 last year to £143,000 this year for the whole of the salaries. I am anxious to know that the First Commissioner of Works and the heads of other Departments are seeing that these charwomen get a living wage.
The increased cost of charwomen is not due to any increase in wages but to the number of charwomen employed, and it is owing to the increased space occupied by the staff, necessitating more cleaning. I do not think I can answer my hon. Friend's question about the difference between the expenses of Ministers when in and out of the Cabinet for secretarial assistance. When the First Commissioner is in the Cabinet it is necessary for him to have more secretarial assistance. I have been asked by the Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel) some questions about Mr. Montagu Meyer, who has been doing the purchasing of timber for the Government. When I returned to the Office of Works about ten months ago, Mr. Meyer's position was one of the first subjects to which I gave my attention. I found, in the first place, that Mr. Meyer was a good and proper buyer, and, secondly, that the arrangement made with him was, on the whole, economical and just. I made pretty wide inquiries in the timber trade about Mr. Meyer, and I was told by everybody of standing whom I consulted that there was not a man in this country who could have bought timber better or as well as Mr. Meyer, and some of them actually said to me that if they had been asked by the Government to recommend someone they would have recommended Mr. Meyer.
As to Mr. Meyer's remuneration, the original agreement, which was a good deal debated in this House, was that Mr. Meyer should have a commission of 2½ per cent. on his purchases of timber. After attention had been drawn to this matter a new arrangement was made that Mr. Meyer was to receive 2½ per cent. up to purchases amounting to £600,000 and 1½ per cent. afterwards. When I returned to the office I found that negotiations had taken place for a fresh agreement, which were that Mr. Meyer should have 1½ per cent. commission on the purchases he makes with a minimum of £4,000 for a year and a maximum of £12,000, whatever his purchases came to. Of that £12,000 it is fair to say that £6,000 will go in office expenses.
Do you provide the clerks?
No, I think not. That was the arrangement made. It was to be a minimum of £4,000 and a maximum of £12,000 on the basis of 1½ per cent. commission. Since that arrangement was made Mr. Meyer has bought at my request for Government purposes timber to the value of £2,500,000, and if he had been paid at the rate of 1½ per cent. without the limit I have made he would have been entitled to £37,500. As a matter of fact all that he gets is £12,000, so that he is doing this work for the remainder of the year absolutely free of any further cost, and he is buying for us admirably in the market. With regard to the increase, I may mention that the price of timber has risen all over the world, in this country largely owing to the difficulties of freight. I have taken out the average price at which Mr. Meyer has bought for my Department and it "works out at £14 10s. per standard, and I find that the market price of standards of deal is from £28 to £37 per standard, or more than double what Mr. Meyer has been paying. I find that the market price of baulks runs up to £45 and £50, so that Mr. Meyer's dealings for the Government have been extremely economical and successful, and he has been willing to limit his remuneration to a very moderate amount.
I will now turn to the question asked me about the men of military age in my Department. I am glad to do so because we have in that respect a very good record. Before the War we had in our employment 2,605 males, and to-day of that number there are either enlisted or attested 1,194. There are over or under military age 1,374. The number of unmarried men now serving in the office who are of military age is 217, and I hope that within a few weeks I shall be able to reduce that total to the irreducible minimum of seventy. This has been achieved in an office which, of course, cannot be provided with ordinary workmen to take their places. I do not know whether the hon. Member asked me about the female staff, but I may say that in this respect the increase has been from 259 to 489, or about 90 per cent. Of course we have had to take older men into the office, but the number of males in the office is now 2,092 as against 2,605 before the War.
I would like to thank my right hon. Friend for the satisfactory statement which he has made on two points which I raised. He tells us that there are still 217 single men in his Department.
To-day.
And that he hopes to considerably reduce them in time, so that there are a number of men who are not indispensable. On the whole, as far as I can see, there is not much more to be said. The right hon. Gentleman will recognise that I only put a simple question to him with regard to Mr. Meyer. I did not desire to raise the whole controversy. I asked him a single question: What was the amount of the total? I do not complain of the fact that he has given us further information, but he runs the risk of raising considerable controversy when he throws his cloak over Mr. Meyer's appointment. I am not going to be tempted to go into the controversy again except to say that I hold still the same opinion, that the arrangement made was a loose and unbusinesslike arrangement. I am perfectly sure, if he had been at the head of the Department at the time, it could never have taken place. The right hon. Gentleman probably remembers that it was made in a casual letter after one interview before the other contractors had had an opportunity of offering a price. It was rushed through, and was practically apologised for afterwards in the House of Commons.
Royal Assent
Whereupon the Yeoman Usher of the Black Rod (Captain T. D. Butler), having come with a Message to attend the Lords Commissioners,
The CHAIRMAN left the Chair.
Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair.
Message to attend the Lords Commissioners. The House went, and, having returned, Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to—
1. Consolidated Fund (No 2) Act, 1916.
2. Naval and Military War Pensions, etc. (Expenses) Act, 1916.
Supply again considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
( Resuming ): At the moment of the interruption I was expressing my regret that the right hon. Gentleman had made a statement which almost courted controversy on this old subject, which certainly I do not desire to raise. I should like, however, to point out to him, when he takes credit for the fact that Mr. Meyer is not going to get £37,000 for buying wood since the War began, that no credit whatever belongs to His Majesty's Government. The credit for altering the contract belongs to the independent Members of this House, who, night after night, raised it, until feeling in the House was so strong that the Government had to give an undertaking to look into the matter and put the contract on a more satisfactory basis. Had we not taken action at that time we have the admission from the Front Bench to-day that, under the first contract, Mr. Meyer would have drawn £37,000. Now the right hon. Gentleman tells us he will get no more than a maximum of £12,000. It cannot be challenged that the first contract would have given Mr. Meyer £37,000 for the purchase of wood under the Office of Works, and had we not protested against it that contract would still be in force. I am not going to delay the House more than a moment, but I wish to point out to my right hon. Friend there was no maximum under the first contract, and under that the more wood Mr. Meyer bought the more commission would have gone into his pocket, and he might have received up to £100,000 provided that the requirements of the Government had gone to that extent. It is not for the Government, therefore, seeing that we induced them to alter the original contract, to take any credit to themselves in this matter. My right hon. Friend has not answered a question, of which I gave him notice, as to the grand total of Mr. Meyer's commission up-to-date for buying wood. My second question was as to the amount of commission which Mr. Meyer has paid to other brokers in connection with those purchases of wood. I hope that, before the Debate closes, I may have an answer on those two points.
I would like to point out that is it not the first contract that would have produced £37,000 for Mr. Meyer. The first contract gave him a commission of 2½ per cent., and it was the second contract which would have produced the amount of commission suggested.
There was no second contract. It was only a modification of the first. It is a subsequent modification which has had the satisfactory result to which I alluded.
There is one thing which might be pointed out, and that is that the emendations in the contract have been carried out under the first contract which was entered into no doubt in a hurry. But it was a well-drawn-up document. It contained within itself the power to alter it at a day's notice; it was a very exceptional and, at the same time, a very proper contract. I do not think there can be any blame attributed to the person who drew up the contract, seeing that it gave the Government complete control over future trans- actions under it. It is true that the Department were slow in using the powers the contract gave them, and I believe the discussions in this House had a useful effect by prompting them to avail themselves of those powers. To that extent the discussion was useful, but it went further. It led to personalities of which I hope there will be no recrudescence.
I do not propose to attempt to rediscuss this matter. I will only say I am glad we now have the First Commissioner of Works in this House, where, in my opinion, as representing a great spending Department, he ought to be. I understood my right hon. Friend to suggest just now that £12,000 was a very moderate salary. But what about His Majesty's Ministers? They do not get anything like that. I cannot agree with the right hon. Gentleman's view on that point. I would like to ask him, has he not in his Department a permanent official who is able to buy timber? From personal experience I can say there is no difficulty about buying it, but the difficulty is to find the money with which to buy it. I do not understand why a great Department like this should employ anyone outside, and pay them commission for work of this nature, and I hope my right hon. Friend will be able to give me at reasonable explanation on that point. If the Department is to be reorganised I hope something will be done to enable it to do this work without outside help.
I did not want to disturb sleeping dogs, and I am obliged to hon. Members who did not wish to revive an acute controversy. We have done our best to deal with the situation, and I think we have not been unsuccessful. But I should like to make one explanation of a statement which I made just now with regard to the comparison between the prices paid by Mr. Meyer and the present market price. Mr. Meyer received the advantage of Admiralty freights, and allowance must be made for this in the comparison I have made. I am sorry the right hon. Gentleman thinks I delayed answering his questions. So far as we know no commission has been paid by Mr. Meyer to other brokers for which we are liable in any way. I have been asked as to the total amount which Mr. Meyer has received. Under his first contract he received £15,000, and under the modified contract he has received £8,000 up to date. He may be entitled to £12,000 in all during the present year, and of that he has received £8,000.
Then he has received £23,000 during the War?
Yes, and the total value of the timber he has purchased during that time is £3,100,000. My right hon. Friend will observe that I stated Mr. Meyer's office expenses in carrying on the work amount to £6,000, so that he only gets a net £6,000. The hon. Member for Sutherland asks if we have not anyone in the Department capable of buying timber. May I point out this is a case of special emergency, and we certainly have no one in the Department who could give the necessary time to the work? We have been buying timber all over the world.
I should like to repeat that, speaking from personal experience, the buying of timber is not a difficult job, so long as you have the money with which to pay for it.
I do not know what comes under the head of office expenses. My information is that Mr. Meyer does not employ a large staff at all. It is just a question of giving instructions. I understood in the last Debate that the Government provided him with clerks. They may have been withdrawn; I do not know. But, I would like to point out that a Government buyer is in a very privileged position indeed. Before Mr. Meyer was appointed by the Government he did not deal to any extent with the kind of wood which the Government require. Further than that, the whole origin of this thing was that the War Office were buying wood themselves, and the Board of Works, through their architect, volunteered to take over the whole business. The right hon. Gentleman, therefore, must not complain of not having the machinery, and so forth, for this particular job. However, I am obliged to my right hon. Friend. It is some satisfaction to know that Mr. Meyer has only drawn £23,000 from the Government for buying wood when under the first contract he might have drawn a very great deal more—I do not like to say how much.
There is one question arising out of the remarks of the hon. Member for Sutherland (Mr. Morton), and that is in reference to the expenses. My recollection is—I may be mistaken— that in the first Debate we had on the subject it was stated that Mr. Meyer was to be allowed to carry on his ordinary business. If so, he must have had a staff in his office. My experience is that people who are paid commission do not, in calculating that commission, say, "Our expenses are so much." A stockbroker is paid a commission for the work he does and not upon his office expenses. Therefore if Mr. Meyer had an office, and was allowed to do other business, I do not think the question of expenses ought to be introduced. He received a commission, and the commission was really his profit.
I think that is rather an unfair way of putting the matter. It is quite true that a stockbroker gets a recognised commission. If this gentleman had received the recognised ordinary commission in the trade he would have got 2½ per cent., but in view of the unprecedented nature of the undertaking, and the unprecedented amount of wood he was purchasing the whole arrangement was revised, and no doubt then it was thought proper to inquire into what expenses he necessarily incurred Upon the result of those inquiries the maximum was probably based.
7.0 P.M.
I do not think that alters the question at all. The point is not what is the ordinary scale of commission. Where you go in for an enormous transaction like this, you always expect a smaller commission than if you are dealing in smaller amounts for private individuals. Therefore I do not think the hon. Member has improved matters at all by his intervention. I have never had; anything to do with the timber trade, and I cannot express any opinion on it, but I should say that any merchant or banker who does a commission business is willing, when he undertakes an enormous transaction like this for the Government, to accept lower terms than he would do if transacting smaller business for a private individual. That being so, the question of what the office expenses are does not come into the matter at all.
I think I should explain to the right hon. Baronet that the £6,000 office expenses are additional office expenses beyond his original and normal expenses, and are incurred in Government work. In reply to the other question, I would say we do not supply any staff to Mr. Meyer. We have a certain number of clerks of our own for auditing purposes, but not for Mr. Meyer's purposes. The accounts have to be continually audited as he work is going on.
Is he allowed to do his own work too?
I think so. I think it was always part of the arrangement that he did not do for himself the class of business he was doing for the Government.
I think the explanation of the First Commissioner of the Works is most satisfactory and should be so to Members of the Committee. The right hon. Gentleman has informed the Committee that he has drawn the attention of various experts to the employment of Mr. Meyer, and that all of them have said that Mr. Meyer is the right man for the business. I also, in my getting about, have spoken to various gentlemen in business who know the timber trade, and they have spoken most highly of Mr. Meyer and have thought that the Government could not possibly employ a gentleman more fitted to carry out the work of buying the timber. Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen an this House have often complained of various members of the Government that they are doing work in their various Departments about which they know nothing and have asked why they do not employ business and practical men; yet when they do that, as has been done in this case, they make a complaint of it. It is very difficult to satisfy some people. Here is an expert man who has saved the Government tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of pounds. We give all credit to the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir H. Dalziel) and his Friends for what they lave done, but do let him give a little credit also to the First Commissioner of Works for what he has done. The right hon. Gentleman will not lose by that any of the credit that is due to him.
I did give him every credit.
We also give the right hon. Gentleman (Sir H. Dalziel) every credit and thank him for what he has done, but let him also give the First Commissioner credit. As one who has been a business man in a small way and who knows something about these things, I am satisfied that the Government have done the right thing. In plain phraseology, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The statement of the right hon. Gentleman is highly satisfactory, and I believe that in his heart the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy thinks the same.
I am sure we are much obliged to the hon. Member (Sir S. Collins) for the way in which he has censured us. I would like to ask him, who has purchased timber in his time and who has told us that he is a practical man, whether he can give a solitary case in which he has paid any commission like this? Of course he cannot. The commission is generally paid to the person who sells. The question is: Is it the best system of purchasing timber and other materials? I ask that it should be done not by an outside man on commission, but by a salaried officer in the right hon. Gentleman's Department. I understand the right hon. Gentleman assents to that.
I said I would consider it.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolution to be reported upon Tuesday next; Committee to sit again upon Tuesday next.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Military Service
Pembrokeshire Appeal Tribunal
Whereupon Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 22nd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
I wish before the House adjourns to call the attention of the representative of the Local Government Board to a matter which was raised at Question Time to-day. It is a matter which can be put in very short compass. It has to do with the constitution of the County Appeal Tribunal for the County of Pembroke. I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree that when the Military Service Bill was passing through the House it was common ground between the Government and all the supporters of that measure that all these tribunals should, so far as possible, be so constituted as to represent all sections of the community where they had to administer the Act. I would call his attention to what the President of the Local Government Board said on the 20th January. He used these words: to express himself both in Welsh and in, English. That is not the difficulty at all. The whole difficulty is the feeling of the-Welsh-speaking part that they have not got that adequate representation upon, this tribunal to which they are entitled.
I have received and I have sent to the right hon. Gentleman's Department resolutions from every local body in the Welsh-speaking parts of this district protesting and asking for representation of Welsh-speaking Welshmen. I have also had front nearly every Nonconformist body in the district similar resolutions. I cannot help thinking that it would be a small matter on the part of the Local Government Board to meet them. I wish to repeat that I make no charge against the tribunal. I do not criticise what they have done, and I do not mean to say for a moment that the gentlemen are not well qualified to. fulfil their task in every way. But the right hon. Gentleman will understand, from his knowledge of local government, that however good a tribunal is, however judicial it may be, and however admirably it may be fitted for its duties, if any part of the community have a feeling that they are not adequately represented upon it, and that their point of view has not, perhaps, adequate weight upon that tribunal, grievances will often arise or grievances will be put forward where, in fact, grievances do not exist at all. It will be a very small concession for the right hon. Gentleman to try to meet this case. The object of appointing these tribunals was that every section of the community should be represented upon them. Here you have this important Appeal Tribunal for this county, of which one-half are different in race, different in language, different almost in religion in many cases from the English-speaking part. It would be a very small concession indeed for the right hon. Gentleman simply to say, "Yes, I think there should be at least three-Welsh-speaking Welshmen on this tribunal." It would be no reflection upon, the existing members, it would be no criticism on the work the tribunal has done, but it would meet a sentiment which; I can assure him is very widely felt and which, if it were met, would be very helpful in smoothing the operation of the difficult task these gentlemen have to perform.
I regret that my hon. Friend has thought it necessary to raise this question on the Motion for the Adjournment, and I cannot help thinking that if he had pursued the correspondence he has had with my right hon. Friend and had sought an interview with him, satisfactory results might have been obtained. I admit, at once, that there is, at all events, a sentimental grievance in this case. I am very glad the hon. Gentleman did not suggest that there was any suspicion of injustice or anything of that kind. Be does not find fault with the individual personality of the ten gentlemen and one lady who are members of the tribunal, but, as representing a constituency which, after all, is largely composed of those who speak Welsh only, he does think that when this tribunal was composed it should, in order to command the confidence of his constituents, have contained at least one member, if not more members, who had knowledge of the Welsh language. My Right hon. Friend has all along adopted a sympathetic attitude towards the hon. Gentleman and towards those who have approached him on this matter. What he did—I think it was on the 17th March—in order that they might make certain that, at all events, no act of injustice was done, was to call their attention to the fact that an appellant had the right to have somebody to represent him, and if there was no bilingual representative on the tribunal that he had a right to have an interpreter. I quite admit that an interpreter is not altogether satisfactory, and I have some sympathy with the hon. Member. I am very glad that the hon. Member, who represents his constituency so well and looks after his constituents, does not even hint that there has been any act of injustice of any sort or kind, and that he is satisfied to a large extent with the answer I gave to-day, which I derived, of course, from those who are able to instruct me on these matters, that there has been no sort of complaint, that no grievance has manifested itself, and that this is a matter rather of sentiment than of justice. If the hon. Member still feels that he has a real sentimental grievance on the matter which is shared by a large body of his constituents, I shall repeat all he has said today to my right hon. Friend, who, I think, will not be averse from reconsidering the matter. Let me remind the House how these committees are constructed. The circular of the Local Government Board instructed the chairmen of the county councils to call together to deliberate with him representative men in the county, and after their deliberation they were to send up a list of suitable and representative people to the Local Government Board, out of which a tribunal was to be chosen. It was not possible for the Local Government Board to know who were bilingual and who were English-speaking only, and I am a little surprised that in a county like that, as I understand it, no names were sent up of those who had the bilingual attainment. So far as we were concerned, the hon. Member held us altogether free from any charge that we had selected these men in any way so that these bodies should consist of gentlemen who only spoke the English language, and we were satisfied, as was the hon. Member himself for a very long time, that this was a very fair and representative tribunal. I think the hon. Member admitted that to my right hon. Friend.
I was very careful to say I was perfectly satisfied with the personnel, as far as the administration of justice was concerned, but that the representation was never satisfactory, having regard to the absence from it of any well-speaking Welshman.
I have forgotten the actual words, but I know that my hon. Friend expressed confidence in the tribunal itself. At all events, in the light of what has fallen from him, I will represent to my right hon. Friend what the hon. Member has said.
As the right hon. Gentleman has promised to reconsider this special point, perhaps I may inform him that Pembrokeshire, though it may possess more ardent advocates than other counties, does not stand alone in this matter, and I hope while he is reconsidering the question he will reconsider the position of other counties in Wales. It is really not entirely a matter of sentiment. We all know that when this great Empire sends people to India they learn the language of the country to which they go. When these people in Wales are administering a matter of very great importance, and when these monoglot Welshmen come before them it gives them considerable confidence to know that there is someone on the tribunal who understands what they have said. Interpreting, as my hon. Friend says, is not really quite the same thing. Pembrokeshire is partly bilingual and partly English, and there are counties in Wales which are nearly wholly Welsh. I represent one of these counties, and I am sure it will add a great deal to the smooth working of the Act if the Local Government Board, whatever names are sent up to them from the locality, will see at any rate that a considerable proportion of the tribunals are acquainted with the Welsh language.
Clyde Industrial Dispute
I wish to raise a question which was brought forward earlier in the afternoon. The hon. Member (Mr. MacCallum Scott) addressed a question to the Minister of Munitions in regard to one of the causes of the dispute in one of the shops on the Clyde, and in a supplementary question I understood my hon. Friend (Mr. Pringle) to indicate that on Tuesday night negotiations were in progress to which he was a party, or at least of which he was cognisant, which negotiations had every promise of a successful issue in the subsequent return of the men who had withdrawn their labour. I further understood my hon. Friend to say that this happy issue was prevented by the action of someone representing the Ministry of Munitions.
I said negotiations were broken off.
I understood my hon. Friend to indicate that negotiations were broken off in consequence of some action on the part of the Ministry.
Yes.
If that is broadly true, it must have a very unhappy effect on the Clydeside, both upon the majority of the men who have remained at their work, and upon the minority who have left their work, but who are being urged by their trade union leaders to return. The House will be glad if the hon. Gentleman would give us a full and frank account of this conference, or these negotiations. What I think we are entitled to know in view of this very serious statement is, what was the nature of these negotiations, who were the parties to them, how far they were carried, at what point they broke down, and what was the reason of the failure? I am sure everyone concerned on Clyde-side will be anxious to have a very full and complete statement in regard to that matter. I should also be grateful if the Parliamentary Secretary could give us any information as to how matters stand today in regard to the troubles on the Clyde.
I thank my hon. Friend for affording me an opportunity of correcting the statement made by the hon. Member (Mr. Pringle) this afternoon, in a supplementary question to my right hon. Friend, in connection with the dispute which has arisen on the Clyde. I cannot give the exact words of my hon. Friend's question, but they were to this effect. Was my right hon. Friend aware that negotiations had been in progress on Tuesday which were of a promising kind, and which had been broken off on the following day by the Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions—that is, by myself? The reference of the hon. Member is, in the first place, to an interview which took place at my private room in this House, and I think the House will agree that if public reference is to be made m this way to private interviews between Members of Parliament and members representing Ministerial offices, it almost makes the conduct of responsible public business an impossibility. It is altogether a most deplorable proceeding. With respect to the allegation itself, I am sure it is not necessary to defend my right hon. Friend and his Department from an accusation of that kind. The whole country knows that in season and out of season, for weeks and months past, we have laboured by day and night to settle disputes in a peaceable manner, and we are always willing and anxious to continue to do the same. The facts are that after my statement in the House the hon. Member (Mr. Ramsay Macdonald) came to me and expressed his deep regret at the state of affairs which had arisen on the Clyde, and expressed his anxiety to be helpful in any way he could in doing anything to induce the men to return to work and get grievances settled. He stated that there were two members of the Clyde Workers' Committee in the House, that they had told him that they felt that the statement I had made to the House, to which I may say I adhere in every particular as being absolutely correct, was not in accordance with the facts, and he pressed me hard to see these men with a view to hearing their version of the facts. I said I would see them in the presence of Mr. Macassey, the chairman of the Clyde Commissioners, who was with me, but that the hon. Member would understand that it was solely an interview at his request—a private interview—and for the purpose named. Shortly afterwards the hon. Member brought these gentlemen to my room, and my hon. Friend (Mr. Pringle) came in with them, but not at my invitation.
But at the request of the men who come.
Is was for me to invite my hon. Friend to come into my own room. The men made a long statement to me which chiefly related to the history of the Clyde Workers' Committee, but which had little or no connection with the strike now in progress. Subsequently the hon. Member (Mr. Macdonald), with the sincere desire of being helpful, brought forward a suggestion which I at once said was unacceptable. I stated clearly, more than once, that the Government could not make conditions in respect to the action they had taken, and I adhered firmly to that attitude. A suggestion ultimately materialised to the effect that these men should go back to the Clyde and use their good offices to get the men to return to work and that the Government would allow the deported men to return to Glasgow. In the first place, it was an impossible suggestion which could not be entertained, and it left out of account the established trade unions. However, I said we could not entertain the suggestion. Throughout the whole conversation I insisted that if these men wanted to be helpful they should, in the first instance, get the men back to work. On the following morning I wrote a letter to my hon. Friend, which I will not read: as I have not had his permission, but the effect of which was that I thought no useful purpose would be served by my seeing the men again, and that if they wanted to serve their country the proper course for them to take was to go back to the Clyde; and use their influence to induce the men to return to work. It was suggested that I should see them after Questions. I said I could not do that, but I took the hon. Member's telephone number and said I would let him know the following day. I sent him this letter, which speaks for itself. This statement, together with the letter I have read, represents what took place. I impressed afterwards, more than once, upon my hon. Friend (Mr. Pringle) that if he wished to be helpful in these matters it was his part to subordinate every other consideration to getting the men back to work, and that I felt that detailed discussion on unessential points was much to be deplored and would only be calculated to do harm, to cloud the issues, and to draw the attention of the men away from the urgent facts of the situation, which were that strikes on the manufacture of munitions of war, most urgently needed, were occurring on more or less trivial pretexts, while machinery was not being; used which had been set up for dealing with disputes after prolonged conferences and full agreement both of employers and employed. The House will form its own opinion of the use which the hon. Member has made of the privileges of the uninvited guest. He has chosen to make himself the spokesman in this House of the Clyde Workers' Committee, a body which, with a treacherous disregard of the highest national interests, has made itself responsible for fomenting strife and putting obstacles in the way of the full and rapid equipment of our armies in the field. What object my hon. Friend had by his intervention to-day I do not know. Whether intentional or not, however, it has at least given the House some idea of the sort of difficulties the Minister of Munitions and the rest of us have been experiencing in dealing with these matters. If with the full responsibility attaching to him as a Member of Parliament he acts like this, what can be expected of those for whom he professes to speak, namely, the members of the Clyde Workers' Committee? I feel confident that the action which the hon. Member has taken will be deplored by the vast majority of the loyal workers, on the Clyde.
I was naturally in ignorance of the statement which the hon. Member would make, consequently the reply which I now make suffers from the disadvantage of being unpremeditated. The first observation I wish to make is that the hon. Gentleman did not state how the supplementary question arose There had been a number of supplementary questions, and in reply to one of these questions the Minister of Munitions said that the Ministry of Munitions had exercised all the resources of negotiation-At least, that was the effect of his reply. With the events of Tuesday evening and the sequel of Wednesday in my mind, I immediately asked if it was not the fact that negotiations, with some prospect of success, had been going on on Tuesday night, and that these negotiations had been broken off on Wednesday by the Ministry itself. For putting that question I am accused of a breach of confidence. I understood that the details of what occurred at that conference were undoubtedly confidential, but the fact that the meeting had occurred was a matter of fairly common knowledge. Many Members of the House were aware of it. I am not sure to what extent I am under a stigma as coming in as an uninvited guest. It is quite true that it was not at my suggestion that the gentlemen referred to called upon the Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions. The Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions asked these representatives of the Clyde Workers' Committee to see him.
No, no; that is not so. The hon. Member for Leicester (Mr. R. Macdonald) asked me to see them.
It is purely a matter of words.
No, no.
The hon. Member for Leicester asked for an interview on behalf of these gentlemen with the Secretary of the Ministry of Munitions. He assented to that request and his willingness to see these gentlemen was communicated to them by the hon. Member for Leicester. What occurred was that these representatives of the Clyde Workers' Committee expressed a desire that I should be present with them at the interview. I accordingly accompanied them to the Secretary's room. He stated that he would prefer to see them by themselves, but one of the gentlemen said that he was anxious that I should be present.
Do I understand the hon. and learned Member to say that I said I would rather see them by themselves?
That is so.
I specifically told my hon. Friend that I would see him and them with Mr. Macassey.
I will not dispute about that. I was not included in the invitation. That is common ground. One of the members of the deputation expressed the desire that I should be present, and had the hon. Gentleman (Dr. Addison) suggested that I should not have been present I would have gone. But he assented to that request. That is the extent to which I was an uninvited guest, and I hope the House realises to the full the heinousness of that offence alleged against me. Now I come to the substance of the matter. I am not going to enter into any controversy regarding any words uttered by either the hon. Gentleman or the deputation at that conference. The real question is, did the deputation depart under the impression that there was an appointment for the following day, because it depends upon that as to whether negotiations were still open? I left the room on the understanding that the meeting was to be continued on the following day. The hon. Member for Leicester left the room under the same impression. The two members of the deputation were of the same opinion, and it was with the greatest disappointment that everyone present heard that the hon. Gentleman on Wednesday declined to see the deputation further. That is the evidence on one side. There is a further piece of evidence, and it is this: I had given notice at Question Time on Tuesday that I would raise the matter on the Third Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill, and it was because I had given such notice that the members of the deputation were anxious that I should be present so that, if possible, any public discussion might be spared, just as I think it would have been well if this public discussion had been spared.
Hear, hear!
Why raise it here at all?
It is not what I wanted. I have not raised this discussion. It was not at my request that the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Pratt) raised the matter to-night. I would point out that the hon. Member has been thanked by the Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions, so that they welcome the discussion. It is only when I endeavour to put my case that they do not welcome it.
It was the remark made by the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Pringle) and the statement in that remark this afternoon that led to my putting the question now.
The suggestion has been made that it was at my instance or at the instance of my friends that the discussion has taken, place. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] I am attempting to deal with that, and I am surely entitled to state my case! I have not been able to write my case down, and consequently it is rather disconnected. I was giving evidence on the question as to whether an appointment had been made for Wednesday at which the negotiations were to be continued. That is the question at issue. On that question the hon. Gentleman says that there was no appointment. I give as evidence of such an understanding the hon. Member for Leicester and the two members of the deputation, as well as my own impression. I was also pointing out my own action on Tuesday night. As a result of what occurred downstairs I intervened in the Debate with special reference to the intimation I had made at Question Time, and I then stated that the hon. Gentleman had made an extremely grave statement regarding the position of affairs on the Clyde upon which I had intended to make some remarks in the course of the Debate, but that under present conditions—this was a statement agreed upon between myself and the Secretary of the Ministry of Munitions—I thought such a discussion would not be beneficial in the public interest. The original form in which I suggested making this statement was that as negotiations were going on a discussion would not be beneficial, but the Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions suggested that instead of the words "as negotiations were going on" I should use the words "under present conditions," because he did not desire that it should be made public that any negotiations were going on. I consequently modified the expression on that account. I think the evidence which I have given to the House is strong evidence that there was a further appointment at which the discussion was to be resumed. Personally, I thought that on Tuesday night the difference between the parties was narrowed down to a very small point, and as it seemed to me that it was an extremely unfortunate thing that this trouble should continue and should extend for such a small point, which seemed to me largely a point of form, I thought that the discussion should not take place and that at a further conference some step might be taken which would bring to an end this most deplorable dispute.
Up to the present time I have neither here nor anywhere else expressed any opinion on any aspect of the dispute. I regard the statement made by the Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions on Tuesday last as a most unfortunate statement. I believe that it is an inaccurate account of the situation. Not only is it inaccurate, but I regard it as most deplorable in the public interest that a statement should go out from a responsible Minister of this House that there is a treasonable conspiracy going on amongst the Clyde workers. I think no more unfortunate statement could be made in the public interest. I believe there is no conspiracy. I am quite prepared to admit that there are people on the Clyde, as there are in other places, who are willing to make trouble, but to suggest that all the members of the Clyde Workers' Committee are in that position, and to suggest that the Clyde Workers' Committee is a body who are organising strikes for the purpose of obtaining the repeal of two Acts of Parliament, I regard that as absolutely untrue. I am quite prepared to admit that some wild people have entertained such ideas, but I say this, and I believe I am representing the true situation, that no considerable section of those affected by this dispute have ever had any such intention in their minds. I should think it was a most regrettable thing if even an inconsiderable number of men, for the purpose of certain political ends, were willing to hold up the provision of munitions of war. My intervention in this matter began exactly a week ago. I then heard for the first time that a dispute had arisen on the Clyde. I took the first opportunity I had of seeing the Minister of Munitions about the matter, and I communicated to him the information which had reached me regarding the dispute. I do not say that it was accurate information, but I thought it was well that he should receive such information as I was able to obtain. I offered also if I received any further information to supply him with it, so that he might be enabled to form as sound a judgment as possible.
That was the position in which it was left until I heard that six men had been deported. I heard at the same time that, unfortunately, the right hon. Gentleman had gone to Paris. On Tuesday a question was asked in this House, and the opportunity was then taken by the Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions to make the very long statement to which I have already referred. I do not intend to deal with that statement this evening. I do not think that it would be advisable to enter into a discussion upon it. I regret, and I believe everyone in all parts of the House does regret, that at such a serious time as this the country should have to face industrial troubles of this kind, and I think, apparently, troubles arising from trivial causes. I do not think that it is going to serve the interests of industrial peace to cast aspersions upon the loyalty of men, to some of whom the right hon. Gentleman himself has given the very highest testimonial upon the floor of this House. We know that on a former occasion, in the case of one of the men who have been deported, a gentleman who had come into association with the Minister of Munitions, when his action and his conduct were referred to the Minister of Munitions gave him a testimonial for honesty, fair-mindedness, ability, and patriotism as high as was ever given in this House to any man. Surely this gentleman, who, we have been told, is so high-minded, sincere, honest and able a patriot, could not within that short period so alter as to become one of the ringleaders of a treasonable conspiracy to hold up the production of munitions of war. I am not going to enter into the merits of this dispute. I hope that means will be taken to bring about a settlement, and so far from doing or saying anything which will intensify feeling on either side, I should desire to do the exact opposite, and had the right hon. Gentleman not accused me of a breach of confidence or a breach of hospitality, and of inactivity, then I should not have intervened in the Debate. I am quite content to leave my conduct, in respect of this interview, to the judgment of this House. I believe that I have broken no confidence. I believe that I have not acted in any way contrary to the laws of hospitality, and I am quite content to leave my reputation for truthfulness as it stands in respect of any statement that has been made.
I do not rise to carry on this controversy. I think it a great pity that it has arisen. It will not do any good in the place where you most want good to be done, and I regret to-day that my right hon. Friend, in the answer that he gave to-day, rather forced my hon. Friend behind me to put his supplementary question. I think that it was one of those very small errors which lead to rather unfortunate consequences. If on that occasion some indication had been given that there were negotiations—perhaps that is not the right word, but do not let us quarrel over words—in this matter: if he had indicated that conversations were in progress, I hope and believe that there would have been no supplementary question raising the matter. The only thing that I would like to say to the House is that, on the whole, I agree with both statements that have been made, with two doubtful points. First of all, Was there an appointment? I am not going to accuse my hon. Friend of making an appointment. All I can say is what my impression was. I certainly left the interview last night under the impression that there was an appointment, and also that I was expected in the interval to busy myself in trying to find out some acceptable formula or proposition which we might suggest. If I am wrong I cannot help it, but that was my impression. I did go to a very considerable amount of trouble during the intervening time to see if I could not do something to end this most unfortunate situation on the Clyde. Then I received a letter from my hon. Friend which he quite accurately summarises in the statement to-day.
The other point that is still in doubt, as I have said already, is whether our conversations amounted to negotiations. Anybody who has been in negotiations knows perfectly well that if you have a conversation when there is a very delicate situation to be met the conversation insensibly merges into negotiation, and I am not going to quarrel, but the conversation was held, and, as my hon. Friend said, it was quite unofficial. He did not speak exactly as Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions, though, of course, he was there because he was Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions. But we repeatedly said to each other that any expressions of opinion that would be made would be purely personal. It is only fair to my hon. Friend that that should be said. I regret very much that he should use this statement. I have no information about the situation. I see that a certain newspaper is mean enough and despicable enough to connect me with this in a manner absolutely as unfair and as unjust as anything of the kind could be. I had absolutely no knowledge of what is going on in the Clyde before my hon. Friend made his statement. It so troubled me that I went immediately from my seat here and had a conversation with him on that bench and said, "Can I help in some way or other to straighten out this difficulty?" I have done so and I am willing to continue to do what I can. Unfortunately, as the House knows perfectly well and as I recognise, certain opinions, which I have come to conscientiously, have somewhat divided me from old colleagues, but I beg this House to believe me when I say that, rather than that division of opinion should make me an agent to bring men out on strike just now, I should wish that something should happen of some kind or other which would destroy every particle of influence that ever I had with the working men of this country. I never have suggested anything of the kind. Within two months of the outbreak of the War I made publicly in my own Constituency an appeal to men who are working on munitions to work honestly on munitions. The situation on the Clyde has been exceedingly difficult and I should be only too glad to do everything in my power to try to help in straightening up a most unfortunate entanglement which, if it spreads and continues, may have the most direful effect upon the destinies of this country.
I quite appreciate the tone and the spirit of the remarks, and especially of the concluding remarks, of my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, and I can conceive no more severe rebuke of the speech which was made before his than the character of the observations which he made at the end, the very strong condemnation which he not merely implied, but which expressly in words he directed against those who, under conditions of national peril, were promoting strikes among workmen engaged in the production of munitions. That was something which I waited for in vain in the speech which preceded his.
That is not true. I referred to this deplorable strike on several occasions.
I am quite within the recollection of the House. Anyone who reads the speeches to-morrow will see the difference in the tone and effect of the two speeches. There was none of that emphatic condemnation of strikes in present conditions, and I both watched and waited in vain for it, as I have in many other speeches of the hon. Gentleman who represents the Clyde area, and therefore conceivably could have made an appeal to the workmen there with some hope of success. No one regrets more than I do that this incident should have arisen. But it was utterly impossible for my hon. Friend to pass by unchallenged what was stated by the hon. Member for Lanark. What does it mean? It was suggested that negotiations—that was the word: it has a definite meaning—were proceeding with the Ministry of Munitions. Anyone deal- ing with words would have no other impression than that my hon. Friend suddenly broke off these negotiations at a moment when they were most promising. If that had been left unchallenged, then the effect would have been most deplorable, not merely upon the Clyde, but throughout the country, where you have got millions of people working at munitions. My hon. Friend stated quite clearly what happened—that the hon. Member for Leicester asked him to receive two members of the Clyde Workers' Committee who wanted to set out certain facts. There were no negotiations. They came there and made certain suggestions in the course of the conversation. There were no negotiations. Where are they? I leave it there. There are certain matters which are sub judice —I do not want to refer to them—but, at any rate, these men represented no one. If they had been two members of a trade union committee who came up here to ask the Government—
No trade union.
If they had been members of the executive of the trade unions concerned who had come up to see my hon. Friend to discuss the matter, of course we should have seen them. But the trade unions concerned had nothing whatever to do with the strike. This is purely an organisation for sedition, not merely against the Government, but against the trade unions themselves. It is a body called the Clyde Workers' Society, whose sole object is to displace trade unionism on the Clyde. They had no authority. There was no proof that they represented even the Clyde Workers' Society, whatever that means. None. They came there. My hon. Friend, with great good nature, saw them purely because a Member of the House wanted him to see them. They came there not to negotiate, but to state certain facts, and they attempted to put forward certain suggestions which my hon. Friend could not accept. To call those negotiations is I will not say attempting to mislead, but its effect is grossly misleading to the people in this country, and grossly misleading to the people on the Clyde. My hon. Friend had no authority to negotiate, and, as the Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions has pointed out, there were no negotiations, there was no one there with authority to negotiate—no one there who represented anyone except to the extent that my hon. Friend represented the Ministry of Munitions—but I am talking of these two men. Even the hon. Member for Lanark did not say that there were authoritative negotiations. A suggestion was made. There was no man there to say, or who would have had power to say, if that suggestion had been accepted, that the men would have gone back. My hon. Friend had no authority to say it. He never said so. The hon. Member for Lanark never said so. Well, where were the negotiations? To speak of negotiations in these conditions is to try to mislead the public as to this lamentable condition upon the Clyde.
I regret the conditions upon the Clyde more than I can say. I regret that some of the men who have been deported had to be deported. I withdraw nothing that I said about the ability and the sincerity of the men whom I had the pleasure of meeting. But unfortunately sincere men are often apt to be most mischievous; as a matter of fact, they are, if they go wrong, because people believe in them; and, if it had not been for this very sincere and rather fanatical man coming to my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester—had it not been for the fact that he was sincere, and that therefore the workmen believed in him, he could not have had this influence for mischief. I deplore it. Having started to be useful on the Clyde, he suddenly went off. [Interruption.] I know the hon. Member for Hanley—
I only asked whether this man absolutely became seditious.
I will express no opinion, as his case may be investigated elsewhere. Undoubtedly, had he been treasonable he could not have done more harm to the State in the present position of things. We have the Army urging, begging, and praying us to send along these particular guns which are turned out in these works. I told the men that in private; I told them a good deal more in private than I could in public. They know it; they know how urgent these particular guns are. In France, now, they are asking us to send them along. What happens? These men, knowing that, pursued these guns through every component part One shop turned out one thing—there was a strike there. Another shop turned out another thing—there was a strike there.
It is not true.
Who says that?
I do. [HON. MEMBERS: "Prove it!"]
I ask the hon. Member what he means?
I cannot explain in the time at my disposal.
There are only two minutes.
I pointed out at Question Time that the House had never had an opportunity of hearing the other side of the story. I have in my pocket the other side of the story. Here is the document. Paragraph No. 2 of this statement is as follows:
"There was no deliberate plot to stop work on a type of gun vitally needed for the Army. The facts on this point are these. Parkhead was finishing a gun, the rough work on which was being done by a subcontracting firm. When the men who are at Parkhead came out, the employés of this firm were asked to do the work. They refused on the ground that they would not do 'black' work; at the same time, the workers at Dalmuir also struck work in sympathy."
This is the whole of the supposed deliberate plot to hold up any particular munition of war.
All this proves exactly my point. In one shop you have locks, and there is a strike; in another shop they are making gun-carriages, and so on. The thing has been pursued, and it is an absolute fact that if these men go back they will be facilitating the making of the most important guns of the British Army. Instead of putting difficulties in the way, and encouraging these men by suggesting, without a shadow of proof, that negotiations have been broken off at the moment when they had become promising—instead of doing that, the hon. Member ought to go down and tell the Clyde workers—with what credit is left to him—whom alone he represents, to return to work and help the nation in its hour of trial.
It being one hour after the conclusion of Government business, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 22nd February.
Adjourned at Seven minutes after Eight o'clock, until Tuesday next, 4th April, pursuant to the Resolution of the House this day.