House of Commons
Thursday, April 6, 1916
Private Business
North British Railway Bill (Substituted Bill) (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Monday next, at a Quarter-past Eight of the clock.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 1) Bill,
"To confirm a Provisional Order of the Local Government Board for Ireland relating to the City of Dublin," presented by Mr. BIRRELL; read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 19.]
South Metropolitan Gas Bill,
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table.
Colonial Bank Bill,
Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the third time.
EXAMINATION OF MAILS (MISCELLANEOUS No. 9, 1916)
Copy presented of Memorandum presented by His Majesty's Government and the French Government to Neutral Governments regarding the examination of Parcels and Letter Mails [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Pensions (Governors of Dominions, Etc.) Act, 1911
Copy presented of Return of Pensions granted to Governors of Dominions, etc., between 16th July, 1914, and 19th January, 1916 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Militia Act, 1882 (Deputy Lieu Tenants, Ireland)
Copy presented of Returns of descriptions of qualifications of Deputy Lieu- tenants lodged during 1915, as furnished to the Chief Secretary for Ireland [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Intermediate Education (Ireland)
Copy presented of Rules and Schedule containing the Programme of Examinations for 1917 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 53.]
Output of Coal in the United Kingdom
Return presented relative thereto [ordered 5th April; Mr. Runciman ]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 54.]
Trading With the Enemy (Amendment) Act, 1916
Copy presented of List of Firms and Companies as to whom orders have been made Under Section 1 (1) of the Trading With the Enemy (Amendment) Act, 1916 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Oral Answers to Questions
War
Contraband Committee
asked who has re placed Lieutenant Arnold-Forster, Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, as Admiralty representative with Captain Longden, Royal Navy, on the Contraband Committee?
As I have already stated, Captain Longden was and remains the Admiralty representative on the Contraband Committee. Lieutenant Arnold-Forster acts as his assistant only.
Then no second representative of the Admiralty is to be appointed on the Contraband Committee?
The difficulty in answering these questions is that the hon. and gallant Gentleman is trying to define a thing much more precisely than the Committee itself has ever defined it. When it was originally appointed different Departments, I understand, were asked to send a representative. The Admiralty sent one representative, and also sent someone else to assist him, so that the Admiralty has had from the beginning one representative and an assistant.
Did not the right hon. Gentleman state that the Admiralty would have two representatives?
I stated that the Admiralty had two representatives. I thought it was so. I inquired and was told originally that there were two representatives, from the Admiralty. That answer was given to me because, as a matter of fact, two persons were sent by the Admiralty to attend. When I inquired further I found that what was actually the case was that the Admiralty had sent one representative, and had sent another to assist the; representative.
Food Production (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that allotments are not procurable for cities in Ireland and are available only to a small number of towns and villages where the estates have been sold; and whether, in view of the necessity for increased intensive cultivation of land for food production, he will consider the advisability of introducing for Ireland a suitable modified extension of the English Allotments Act?
My right hon. Friend is not aware of any such distinction as that referred to in the first part of the question. With regard to the latter part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to his question on this subject on the 14th March, and I may add it is not considered that the measure suggested would be likely to meet the necessity to which he alludes.
Tree Felling (Ballykelly Wood, County Londonderry)
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) if he is aware that the remains of the Ballykelly Wood, in county Londonderry, are being cut by instructions of his Department; if it is the policy of the Department to discourage the removal of ancient woods and encourage afforestation; if he will explain the action of the Department in the matter of the Ballykelly Wood; and will he state whether men of military age are being employed on this work?
The work of preserving and improving the wood at Ballykelly involves the clearance of a quantity of scrub and undergrowth, and the cutting of a few trees that are ripe for felling. Any ground cleared is being replanted. The Department do all in their power to discourage the premature felling of trees unless the timber be urgently required for war purposes, and to encourage the replanting of old woods wherever the maturity of the trees renders their felling advisable. Only one man is at present employed at Ballykelly; he is, the Department understand, of military age.
Railway Wagons (Pooling by Companies)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the fact that the wagons of the Great Northern, Great Eastern, and Great Central Railway Companies have lately been pooled; whether the result of the pooling has been to relieve congestion; and, if so, whether he will use his powers to enforce the pooling of the wagons of other railway companies as well as of private wagons?
The arrangement between the three railway companies named in this question has been in operation for some time, and I am informed that so far it has proved satisfactory. A somewhat similar arrangement has just been made experimentally between five other leading railway companies and may possibly be extended. As regards private wagons, I am afraid I cannot add to the reply given to the question asked by my hon. Friend on the 26th January last.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that already some considerable improvement in congestion has been effected by arrangement just made with the other railway companies, and is it the hon. Gentleman's intention to compel, as he has powers to do, the Southern railway companies, who so far have been obstructive, to enter into this arrangement?
the hon. Member had better give notice of that.
I gave an answer to that in my reply.
Bunker Coal (Neutral Steamers)
asked whether bunker coal is in many cases unobtainable except at ports under the control of His Majesty's Government, with the result that neutral steamers would practically be unable to trade at all unless they came to terms with His Majesty's Government for the purchase of bunkers; and whether, under these circumstances, the withholding of bunkers provides His Majesty's Government with the means of bargaining with neutral steamers about the rates of freight to be charged by them for the carriage of coal and other cargo to France and Italy, the charge for which is at present a matter of complaint in those countries?
Bunker coal is obtainable at several ports which are not under the control of His Majesty's Government. The importance of the control which we are able to exercise over the supply of bunker coal is fully recognised, and if my hon. Friend will call at the Board of Trade my officials or I will be happy to explain to him the measures that are being taken with regard to this matter.
Glycerine (Ground Nuts for Holland)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Government are still permitting the shipment of ground nuts, which contain a large percentage of glycerine, from the British Colony of the Gambia direct to Holland; and if he can state the number of steamers that have loaded in the Gambia for Holland direct since 1st January, 1916?
A shipment of the nature stated is in contemplation, but I am not aware that any steamer has as yet been actually loaded. Consent to the issue of the licence was given at the request of the French Government in favour of a French firm in Holland, and the shipment is to be consigned to the Netherlands Oversea Trust.
Motor Tyres (Importations)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he can give any figures as to the value of the motor tyres imported into this country in the years 1913, 1914, and 1915?
The value of motor tyres and tubes, and parts and accessories thereof, imported into the United Kingdom from all sources during the years specified was £2,557,000 in 1913, £1,893,000 in 1914, and £1,967,000 in 1915. These amounts are exclusive of the value of motor cycle tyres, which was £101,000 in 1913, £40,000 in 1914, and £105,000 in 1915.
Damage by Mines (State Insurance)
asked the President of the Board of Trade what steps he is going to take to amend the form of policy against raids issued by the Government so as to make it include the risk run of damage to property on or near the sea shore which may arise from explosions of mines and bombs and shells, whether projected from ships on or under the water or in the air; and if any further premium will be required for a complete insurance against such damage?
I am glad to be able to announce that it has been arranged that damage to property on shore, caused by the explosion of mines which drift upon the coast, will be treated as if covered under the Government policy of insurance against aircraft and bombardment. The other risks referred to are, in general, covered by the policy.
Thank you; that is very satisfactory.
Closing of Railway Stations (Great Eastern Railway)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether it is proposed to close Cambridge Heath Station and other stations on the Great Eastern Railway; and whether, before anything definite is done in this direction, he will receive a deputation of local representatives, with a view to the local requirements being fully considered?
I have asked the railway company for their observations on this matter, and I will communicate with my hon. Friend upon receipt of their reply.
School Masterships
asked the President of the Board of Education if he has taken any steps to discourage the permanent appointment of school masterships while masters and suitable candidates are away in the Army; and wall he intimate to education authorities the wish that all such positions shall be temporary until the conclusion of the War and thus prevent attempts to take advantage of the military absence of masters and other suitable candidates?
The Board, of course, take the view that men should not be prejudiced with regard to their position and prospects in the educational service by reason of their absence on military service. I have, however, no reason to think that local education authorities are not fully alive to the claims of men who are serving with the Forces, and I doubt whether it is necessary for me to address any special communication to the authorities on the matter. I do not think I should be justified in advancing the proposition that all permanent appointments to vacant posts should be suspended during the War.
Have not such cases already occurred?
I am not aware of it.
Military Service
Appeal Tribunals
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether it is part of the functions of a Central Tribunal to advise the appellate and local tribunals as to points of special difficulty under the Military Service Act, 1916; and whether he is aware that the military representative at the Middlesex Appellate Tribunal on 27th March informed that tribunal that a point before them was involved in a case pending before the Central Tribunal, whose decision would bind that and other tribunals, and that such intimation was ignored by the Middlesex Appellate Tribunal, who dismissed the case forthwith?
I am not aware of the case to which the hon. Member refers. An Appeal Tribunal have power to decide a case finally, but may give leave to appeal. It is the duty of the Central Tribunal to decide cases which come before them. I have undertaken to circulate the effect of decisions of the Central Tribunal which seem to be of importance for the guidance of local and Appeal Tribunals.
asked the President of the Local Government Board if he is aware that certain Appeal Tribunals have, since the issue of his last Circular pointing out that they have power to grant absolute exemption on conscience grounds, refused to accept this interpretation of the provision of the Act, one such Appeal Tribunal being the Middlesex County Appeal Tribunal; and what action it is proposed to take to secure the legal rights of such applicants where the proof of claim has been admittedly established?
I am in communication with the Middlesex Appeal Tribunal on this subject.
asked the President of the Local Government Board (1) whether his attention has been drawn to the action of the North Staffordshire Appeal Tribunal sitting on 31st March, when nine men who had been granted exemption from combatant service on conscientious grounds by the local tribunal appealed for absolute exemption, with the result that the Appeal Court recommended all for active service; is he aware that one applicant had put before the local tribunal correspondence he had had with the rector of Stoke in August, 1914, in which the latter acknowledged the genuineness of his protest against a sermon in advocacy of enlistment; does he propose to take steps to rectify this disregard of the provisions of the Military Service Act, 1916, and of the instructions he has issued; (2) whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that appellants before the North Staffordshire Appeal Tribunal of 31st March allege that they were not permitted by the chairman, Mr. Twyford, to make any connected statement; that one applicant who commenced with the words Lord Jesus Christ was stopped by the remark that we respect that sort of thing but these are serious times; will he cause an inquiry to be made into the action of the chairman in disregarding the provisions of the Military Service Act, 1916, and of the instructions he has issued for the guidance of tribunals; and (3) whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that at the sitting of the North Staffordshire Appeal Tribunal, held at Stoke on 24th March, a number of cases were dealt with that had come before the Audley Local Tribunal; is he aware that a member of this tribunal had stated that no resolution was taken by the members on those cases, that one appellant got the Appeal Tribunal to disclose the reason given by the local tribunal for refusing his claim, which was that they had at first intended to recommend him for the Royal Army Medical Corps on account of his skill as a chemist, but subsequently decided not to do so on account of those with whom he associated, who, as a matter of fact, are of good repute; and can he state what steps he proposes to take, in view of this administration of the Military Service Act?
I am making inquiries into the matters referred to in these questions.
Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire whether the presence of the military representatives overawed these tribunals?
I propose to make inquiries as to the facts of the case.
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that on 28th March the chairman of the Glamorgan Appeal Tribunal, western section, informed Mr. H. Davies, an appellant, that if he understood all the instructions that are being issued he must be very clever, that he, the chairman, did not, but that it seemed clear to the tribunal that they had no power to grant absolute exemption in such cases; will he take steps to ensure that the instructions issued are understood and regarded; and will he say if he proposes to take any action to remedy the injustice that has been done to appellants in consequence of tribunals and Appeal Courts disregarding the provisions of the Military Service Act, 1916, and the instructions issued?
I will make inquiry in this case.
asked whether the Central Tribunal does not intend as a rule to see appellants in person; and, if so, whether, in cases where the appellant is not heard, the military representative will also not be heard in person, in order that the two parties to the case shall be on an equal footing?
It is for the Central Tribunal to determine their own procedure. I will communicate with them on the subject to which the hon. Member refers.
Medical Unfitness
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether R. A. Minto, of 31, Mulkern Road, Upper Holloway, has been accepted for the Army; whether he was a patient in the Downs Sanatorium, Sutton; whether he produced evidence of sputum tests to prove his ailment; whether, in spite of this, he was accepted; and whether he is to be retained and so inevitably requires to be pensioned?
I have asked for a report on this case.
Local Tribunals
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the failure of the appeal for exemption on the part of Mr. John Danagher, V.C, late Connaught Hangers, for his seventh son; whether he is aware that Mr. Danagher has six other sons serving with the Colours, viz., Colour-Sergeant Danagher, Sergeant P. Danagher (who has been killed in action), Corporal Danagher (prisoner of war), Sergeant A. Danagher, Lance-Corporal Danagher (wounded in France), and Drummer Danagher; and whether, in view of the patriotic response of this one family, he can see his way to review this decision?
My hon. Friend has been good enough to send me some particulars of this case. I am making some inquiry into the matter.
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that certain tribunals refuse to allow solicitors representing applicants to make any statement on their behalf but restrict them to asking questions; and whether, in view of the difficulty of putting the material facts before the tribunals under these restrictions, he will give instructions that solicitors shall be permitted, when necessary, to make a brief statement on behalf of the applicant they represent?
The Regulations and Instructions require parties and their representatives (if any) to confine themselves to the presentation of evidence and the elucidation of facts, and unless it is shown that an applicant is not being given a fair opportunity for the presentation of his case, I do not think that it would be right for me to intervene.
May I ask whether the presentation of a case involves the making of a statement, or whether it may be interpreted as simply asking questions?
My hon. Friend is quite as able to answer that question as I am. It depends upon the tribunals.
With great respect I ask the President to be good enough to give a decision upon this question. Does he not think by leaving it in this nebulous state great injustice is being done by these tribunals, and this difficulty only accentuates the injustice?
I am not aware of the case to which the hon. Member refers or of any injustice. The tribunals vary and so do the cases.
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the conduct of the Luton Tribunal in cancelling a certificate giving temporary exemption to Mr. H. J. Odel because he had given advice to another apellant on how to fill up his application form; and if he will say whether a certificate granting temporary exemption on business grounds can properly be withdrawn for such a reason as the one referred to?
I am making inquiries in this matter.
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he has had a sight of a letter, dated 27th March, from Mr. Thomas Smith, mayor of Mansfield, the chairman of the Mansfield tribunal under the Military Service Act, 1916, stating that all the members of the tribunal were unanimously agreed that the Government pledge as understood by the married men has not been fulfilled, and that the attested men by obeying the instructions issued by the Government had placed themselves in a worse position than if they had not done so, for they were led to believe that if they did not attest compulsion would be applied; whether he is aware that this tribunal has postponed the hearing of appeals by married men on the ground that the tribunal is unanimously of opinion that they, cannot carry out their duties without injustice to the married men; and what steps does he propose taking?
I will answer this question together with No. 70 put by the hon. Baronet to the Prime Minister [To ask the Prime Minister whether he is aware that a ciruclar headed "England Expects every Man to Do his Duty" was issued in the Mansfield district last December to married and single men, signed by Captain Muschamp, recruiting officer under Lord Derby's scheme, stating that there is no chance of appeal if a man does not attest; that all the members of the Mansfield Tribunal, including the mayor, four ex-mayors, and two labour representatives, read this circular to mean that compulsion would be applied to married men unless they attested; that for this reason all the members of the said tribunal urged all married men to attest, including men who in their opinion ought not to be called for military service; and will he, in view of these facts, at once introduce legislation to release all men of their liability under the Derby scheme who were led to attest on the faith of a false statement made in an official document].
I decline to have both my questions answered together, and I withdraw them. I beg to give notice that I shall ask Question No. 25 on Wednesday and No. 70 on Thursday.
Labour Exchanges (Ireland)
asked if Irishmen sent into Great Britain by the Irish Labour Exchanges for temporary industrial work are exempt from the Military Service Act, 1916, so long as they remain in the employment to which they have been transferred?
The Military Service Act only applies to persons who were ordinarily resident in Great Britain on 15th August, 1915, or who become ordinarily resident in Great Britain subsequently to that date. It does not apply to persons residing in Great Britain temporarily or for some special purpose.
Are we to understand from that reply that the answer to my question is in the negative? The point I raised in the question has not been touched at all in the answer.
I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's description of my answer. I have given an answer which is accurate, based upon the interpretation of an Act of Parliament. If the hon. Member is referring to the specific case of Irish labourers who come over here to work in one form of industry or another, they do not come within the provisions of the Act.
Conscientious Objectors
asked what it is intended to do with the numerous cases where applicants for exemption on conscientious grounds before the local and Appeal Tribunals have been refused exemption because the tribunals acted under the belief that they had no power under the law to grant absolute exemption, though they admitted that the applicants had established their cases for absolute exemption to the satisfaction of the tribunals?
If any such case occurs at a local tribunal the applicant can appeal. If an Appeal Tribunal considers that it has proceeded on a mistaken view of its powers, it can allow an appeal against its decision.
Supposing the Appeal Tribunal does take a mistaken view of its powers, what remedy has the appellant?
The only remedy provided for in the Act is that the applicant can apply to have the case reheard, revised, and so on, but there is no remedy against the decision of the tribunal if they refuse the hearing.
In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the replies that have been given to this series of questions, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this question on the Motion of Adjournment tonight.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say to whom the application is to be made?
asked the Home Secretary if he will issue a circular to magistrates and justices of the peace pointing out that an alleged deserter under the Military Service Act, 1916, who states that he is a conscientious objector should be allowed to establish in the Civil Court, by giving and calling or by calling evidence, the fact that he is a conscientious objector, so that that matter should be considered by the Civil Court in any sentence that is inflicted?
Parliament has enacted that the question whether any person should be exempted from the provisions of the Military Service Act on the ground of conscientious objection is one to be decided by the tribunals established under the Act. It is open to the justices to consider any representation made by a defendant that he has applied to the tribunals and failed, but I see no reason for the issue of a circular on the subject.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the magistrates all over the country are refusing remands for the purpose of preparing a defence to people arrested on charges under the Military Service Act, and are absolutely ignoring the fact that these men are sent into the Army without having had an opportunity of testing the question whether they have or have not been enlisted?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in some cases the remanding of the men has been granted by the Police Court, and will he do his best to secure uniformity of practice in the different Courts?
I shall be much obliged if the hon. Gentlemen will supply me with the specific cases they have in mind.
Military Service Act, 1916
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the need for men in the Army, he has yet decided to propose an amendment to the Military Service Act, 1916, so as to bring within its scope all men who have reached the age of eighteen since 15th August, 1915, and also all men on attaining the age of eighteen?
I will deal with this question in a short statement which I will make at the end of questions.
Debate on Military Service (Attendance of Members)
asked the Prime Minister whether he proposes to arrange for Members of the House who are engaged in military or naval service to attend the House when the question of the extension of the Military Service Act is debated, as was done when the Bill for Military Service was before the House?
This matter, if and when it arises, must be left entirely within the discretion of the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief.
Certificates of Exemption
asked the Prime Minister if he will state what action the Government propose to take in regard to the cases where applicants for exemption from the Military Service Act have been refused certificates through the illegal action of tribunals; and, in view of the number of men who are being arrested every day whose cases are identical with others who have been granted exemption, will he at once take the necessary steps to prevent this state of affairs?
I can only say at present that the Government are keeping a close watch on these cases.
Married Recruits (Housing)
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to a resolution of the Newcastle-under Lyme Borough Council protesting against any charge being made upon municipal authorities in respect of the housing of married men called to the Colours, and proposing that as the question is one of national importance the financial burden thereof should be borne by the State; and, if so, if he will say whether the Government will arrange as requested for the payment of such charges from national funds?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. My attention had not been called to the resolution referred to, which relates to one aspect only of the general question of the position of married men who have been or will be called to the Colours. For the moment I fear I can add nothing to the statement on the subject made on the 29th March by my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board.
Suicides to Avoid Military Service
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that since the Military Service Act, 1916, came into operation there have been a number of cases of suicide of men who have left letters indicating their intention to commit suicide rather than serve in the Army; whether he is aware that such occurrences are likely to continue in view of the fact that the tribunals and Appeal Courts have subjected men claiming total exemption on conscientious grounds to ridicule and contempt, and have rejected their claims; and does he intend to take any steps in the matter?
My attention has not been drawn to cases of this kind.
Widows' Only Sons
asked the Prime Minister whether he can see his way to meet a deputation of widows who wish to lay the case of only sons before him?
The circular issued by the Local Government Board seems to me to deal fairly with this matter, and I doubt whether there is sufficient ground for receiving the deputation suggested by my hon. Friend.
If they wish, will the right hon. Gentleman meet them?
Who—the widows?
Yes.
Local and Appeal Tribunals (Scotland)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether, in his circular of 23rd March to local and Appeal Tribunals in Scotland, he stated that the Military Service Act, 1916, did not provide for absolute exemption for conscientious objectors, but only for exemption from combatant service and exemption from military service on condition of the applicant being engaged in work of national importance; and, if so, what is the reason why his circular differed from that of the President of the Local Government Board, which states that any certificate of exemption, including one on conscientious grounds, may be absolute, conditional, or temporary?
The allegations in the question are without any foundation. If my hon. Friend had read my circular and compared it with that of my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board, he would have found that they are in this respect in identical terms. I have also seen an allegation in the opposite sense, that I had issued instructions to tribunals that conscientious objectors are entitled to absolute exemption, which suggests that tribunals have no option; this allegation is equally baseless. My circular simply states, like that of my right hon. Friend, the powers of the tribunals under the Act.
Divinity Students
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the Scottish Churches, in reply to the request of the War Office, suggested the words, "men in immediate preparation for the ministry" as the term to designate those men who should be exempted from the Military Service Act, 1916; whether the Scottish Churches defined such men as final-year students and probationers; whether he is aware that in England the denominations defined all divinity students, including those accepted but not yet begun their divinity course; whether he is aware that, as a result of this difference of treatment,, divinity students who may have put in six, five, four, three, two, and one year of their divinity course are being called up while divinity students of any year elsewhere are not being called up; and whether he will now place all such students everywhere on an equality?
As I explained to my hon. Friend on the 21st March, the responsible authorities of the different denominations were given the opportunity of stating, subject to general directions, what students they considered should be excepted under the Military Service Act, and they were asked to suggest a formula for inclusion in the official instructions on the matter. The formula suggested by the authorities of the Scottish Churches was adopted by the War Office. If my hon. Friend suggests that these authorities put forward a formula which they now find there is some good reason for modifying, their proper course is to approach the War Office. The matter is much too technical and arouses too much emotion to be dealt with on the floor of this House.
Recruits (Misrepresentation)
(Paddington, S.— by Private Notice ) asked the President of the Local Government Board whether there is any truth in the allegation that misrepresentations have been made to induce men to enlist?
I regret to say that evidence that the Government have received within the last few days satisfies us that there has been a certain amount of misrepresentation. I am not prepared to admit that the Government were in any way responsible for this, but I acknowledge that the circumstances are as I have stated, and that they appear to render it necessary that there should be some reconsideration of these cases.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the circular I sent him yesterday, issued by the recruiting officer, did come from the Parliamentary Recruiting Committee?
The local committee.
No, the Parliamentary Recruiting Committee in London.
No, I am not aware of that.
I will send the right hon. Gentleman a statement from the recruiting officer at Mansfield.
Disabled Soldiers and Sailors (Artificial Limbs)
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that the Grants made by the Government for the provision of artificial limbs for disabled soldiers and sailors, and for their maintenance in hospital whilst the limbs are being supplied and fitted, are totally inadequate to meet the needs of the case, and voluntary subscriptions are being solicited to augment the Government Grants; if he is aware that many of the Poor Law guardians in the different parts of the country have passed resolutions stating that the Government should take immediate steps to render all such expenses a national charge, and to provide sufficient funds to defray the full cost of artificial limbs and of the maintenance in hospital of soldiers and sailors who through injuries in the war may require them irrespective of the date of their discharge; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
I think the hon. Member will find upon further inquiry that he is misinformed. Artificial limbs are supplied in kind at Government expense, and the recipients are fully maintained in hospital at public expense while they are being fitted. My right hon. Friend, who has asked me to reply to this question, is not aware of any such resolutions as are stated to have been passed.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in consequence of the very high price of foodstuffs, where a great many hospitals are dealing with wounded soldiers and where they rely upon public subscriptions they feel that they are being very hardly hit?
They are kept, if possible, in hospital until they are provided with artificial limbs, and I think I am right in saying that they are kept for a period at least two months after the limbs have been fitted.
Naval and Military Services (Pensions and Grants)
asked whether the proposal by the Statutory Committee to make up incomes to two-thirds of the pre-war income applies to widows without children?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. I think that it would be better for my hon. Friend to await the issue of the Regulations to be framed by the Statutory Committee under Section 3 of the Naval and Military War Pensions, etc., Act for information on the point to which he refers in his question or other similar points.
Can my right hon. Friend tell us what we are to say to widows who are making these applications now?
All the hon. Member can say is that he must await the decision of the Statutory Committee as shown in the Regulations which will very shortly be issued.
asked the Undersecretary of State for War if the father and mother of a deceased soldier who were both dependent on the deceased will both receive a pension or whether a joint pension will be granted; and whether, on the death of the father of a deceased soldier who was granted a pension, such pension will be continued to be paid to the mother of the deceased soldier, who was also dependent on the deceased soldier?
When both parents are totally dependent, the pension is granted to them jointly, and if otherwise payable, continues for their joint lives.
Munitions
Women Labour (Messrs. Vickers' Works)
asked the Minister of Munitions whether all girls and women at Messrs. Vickers' works at Erith who have recently been put on to twelve-hour shifts had been medically examined?
The girls and women at Messrs. Vickers' works at Erith who have recently been changed from the three-shift to the two-shift system were not medically examined prior to making this change. There is, however, a qualified medical man in residence close to the works, who has been specially appointed to look after the health of all the firm's workers, and he has a surgery, first-aid station, and the assistance of a qualified nurse.
asked how many controlled establishments where women are employed have changed from three eight-hour shifts to two twelve-hour shifts since the recommendations of the Health of Munition Workers Committee recommending eight-hour shifts were published?
So far as I am aware, only one establishment, namely, Messrs. Vickers, Limited, of Erith, have changed their system of shifts for their women employés from a three to a two-shift system since the issue of the Health of Munition Workers' Committee's Memorandum on the subject of Hours of Work. My hon. Friend should understand that under the system introduced there, work is confined to six days a week and that the total working hours are from fifty-eight to sixty. One of the chief reasons which induced the Minister of Munitions to agree to this experiment, after a careful Report by a leading Home Office inspector, was that the weekly rest time was increased from sixteen continuous hours to twenty-six in each of the first two weeks and from twenty-four to forty-eight in the third week.
Surely sixty working hours a week are too much for girls to> work even on munitions?
I agree, but that is within the limits of the Home Office Regulations and the Munitions Workers' Committee's recommendations.
Before the change from eight to twelve hours was made were the workers consulted in accordance with the Treasury agreement?
Yes, I understand that that was so.
No.
A deputation of the workers and certain local trades union representatives were consulted, and they raised no abjection to the scheme before it came into operation.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some forty girls have asked for their certificates of discharge as a result of this change taking place? Is he also aware that the organisation representing women has asked for impartial arbitration on this question, and is the Minister of Munitions prepared to grant it?
My hon. Friend is aware that I am going into this case much more thoroughly, but the firm states that they have never, as was stated in the House the other day, refused an appeal to arbitration.
Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)
asked the Minister of Munitions whether the new restrictions, on canvassing imposed by the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) are intended to apply to brewers doing business under a beer dealer's Excise Licence, by which, not less than four and a half gallons in cask or bottle can be sold; and, if so,, whether the Order will be modified so as to allow brewers to continue to use the services of canvassers to ask for orders; from wholesale trade customers and to avoid the unnecessary hardship arising from interference with the custom of the trade?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the second part of the question, the Order does not apply to sales to a trader for the purposes of his trade.
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he can give the House any information as to the action of the Central Control Board with regard to workmen's clubs in London; whether the present regulations are leading to insolvency in the case of many clubs; and whether he will consider the desirability, in the public interest, of some modifications being now made to mitigate the hardships falling upon these institutions?
I am informed that the case of clubs has been frequently presented to the Control Board, and that it is not thought possible to accord them preferential treatment as compared with licensed premises.
Liquor Trade (State Purchase)
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he will now issue as a Parliamentary Paper the Report of the Treasury Advisory Committee which last spring considered proposals for the State purchase of the licensed liquor trade?
The answer is in the affirmative.
Health of Munition Workers Committee
asked the Minister of Munitions whether the recommendations of the Health of Munition Workers Committee with regard to ventilation and mechanical devices for ensuring workers against the inhalation of poisonous fumes, etc., are being carried out with the co-operation and under the guidance of the Factory Inspectors' Department at the Home Office?
The precautions in question recommended by the Committee are, I understand, already being enforced by the inspectors of the Factory Department of the Home Office as a part of their general administration.
asked the Minister of Munitions whether the Health of Munition Workers Committee has reported that the health and efficiency of munition workers have been detrimentally affected by too prolonged hours of work; whether the Committee has pointed out that continuous overtime working not only tends to ruin the health of the worker of average powers of endurance, but also that such continuous overtime is excessively costly and prejudicial to economical and effective production; whether he is using or will use compulsory powers where necessary to prevent the continuance of the evils indicated; and whether he has made or will make arrangements for the distribution of the reports of the Committee throughout the country?
The answer to the first two parts of this question is in the affirmative. The action that is being taken in the matter was fully set out in my right hon. Friend's written reply given on the 4th April to the question on the same subject asked by my hon. Friend. The exercise of compulsory powers has not hitherto been found necessary, but if occasion arises my right hon. Friend is prepared to take this course. I should add that the 2nd, 3rd, and 6th Memoranda of the Committee have been circulated to all controlled establishments, and it is contemplated that a further memorandum should be circulated.
Questions
Economic Conference (Paris)
asked the Prime Minister whether advantage will be taken of the presence in this country of the Prime Minister of Australia to endeavour to secure his attendance at the Paris Conference?
We should have been glad to make use of the services of Mr. Hughes, whose illness the whole country greatly deplores, in any way possible, but I understand that he is obliged to leave this country before the date of the Conference.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of his statement that nothing will be said by the representatives of His Majesty's Government in Paris at the forthcoming Economic Conference which will in any degree fetter the free action of the House of Commons and of the desirability of the Conference being fruitful of practical results, he will afford an opportunity for this House to express an opinion that may guide the action of the British representative at the Conference by giving a day before the Conference meets for the discussion of the Motion standing in the name of the hon. Member for St. Augustine's?
I am afraid I cannot undertake to give a day for this purpose.
Parliamentary Committees
asked the Prime Minister whether he has noted the growing inclination in this country in favour of the establishment of Parliamentary Committees which should watch, and be constantly informed concerning, the great Departments of State; and whether he can at an early date, preferably in debate, express to the House how far and under what conditions the Government is willing to move in this direction?
I have not seen any sufficient evidence of what my hon. Friend calls a growing inclination in this direction, and the Government do not propose to move in the matter.
Is the Prime Minister open to receive evidence which has been accumulating perhaps in his absence?
Premium Bonds
asked the Prime Minister whether he will give a day for the purpose of discussing whether premium bonds should be issued or not?
I am not aware that any general desire exists for a day to be set apart for the discussion of a Government issue of premium bonds.
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the fact that the British Government is one of the largest proprietors in the Suez Canal Company; whether this company has issued premium bonds with satisfactory results to the shareholders; and whether, in view of this precedent, he will introduce legislation to enable the Government to issue premium bonds in this country?
As already announced, the Government have decided that the issue of premium bonds would not be in the public interest. I am aware that such bonds have been issued at various times by the Suez Canal Company.
If the Government and the nation have made a profit out of these bonds in the Suez Canal, why should they not make a profit out of these bonds issued in this country?
Our holding in the Suez Canal is shares, not bonds.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that, sanctioned by the Treasury, last year an issue of debentures in an undertaking was made redeemable by drawings at a premium over the issue price; and, if the issue of premium bonds is against existing statutes, why the Treasury gave sanction to this issue?
My hon. Friend refers, I understand, to an issue of 5 per cent. debentures at 95, redeemable in and after 1917 by annual drawings at 101. I am not in a position to express an opinion on the legal question whether the manner of repayment infringed the statute law. The issue was permitted by the Treasury on the ground that the raising of capital for the purpose required was not at the time contrary to national interests, and though a copy of the prospectus was in fact before the Treasury, the Treasury did not consider the details of the terms upon which the money was to be raised.
Did not the Treasury sanction the very thing that is supposed to be contrary to the law now?
My hon. Friend will hardly compare the premium bond, if it be such, of the kind described in this question with the premium bonds which he has in mind. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"]
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, seeing that the Government are large stockholders in the Suez Canal Company, that the bonds of the company are redeemed by quarterly drawings, and that at each drawing a certain percentage of bonds have prizes added to their value, he will say if the Government has drawn a prize?
The British Government does not hold any bonds of the Suez Canal Company, its holding being confined to shares.
Even if the British Government is unfortunate enough not to hold any stock which has a chance of drawing a prize, have they ever intimated to the company that they do not approve of the system adopted by the company to pay off their bonds?
If the hon. and learned Gentleman will give me notice I will inquire.
National War Savings Committee
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to bills posted in various parts of the metropolis, entitled "Don't" and "Bad Form in Dress," issued by the National Organisation Committee of War Savings; whether his consent was given to the contents of these bills; will he give the names of this Committee; and is it proposed to spend public money in the same way as was done by the Recruiting Committee in issuing bills that offend against the public taste?
The answer to the first and second parts of the question is in the negative. The names of the Committee can be obtained at the Committee's offices, 18, Abingdon Street, S.W.; and it is not proposed to spend money in producing or issuing bills that offend the public taste. The question of taste is often one of controversy.
Is the House to understand that the Prime Minister holds the view that these posters do not offend against the public taste?
I have not seen them.
I will send the right hon. Gentleman copies.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, and, if so, when a report will be issued by the National War Savings Committee?
The Committee is an executive and administrative body, and has not been asked to report on any specific question.
Mesopotamia Campaign
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the defects in the fitting out of the expedition to Mesopotamia during its control by the India Office; and whether, any steps are being taken to fix responsibility and to avoid recurrence of these shortcomings on all future occasions?
With regard to the first part of the question, I must refer the hon. Member to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for India on the 30th March. With regard to the second, as has already been explained to the House, the control of the operations was handed over to the War Office from 16th February, and a careful delimitation of the spheres of the War Office and India Office in the matter has been made.
Air Services
Supply of Aircraft
asked the Prime Minister if there has been and if there is still any overlapping, preventable delay, or extravagance with regard to the purchase, supply, and manufacture of aeroplanes, sea-planes, other aircraft, and their accessories owing to the Munitions Ministry still being left without similar control in these matters as that which it now holds with regard to guns and other vital munitions of war; if separate design and contract departments are still run either by the Admiralty or the War Office or both, altogether apart from the Ministry of Munitions; and, if so, whether he can say when adequate steps will be taken to place all the business connected with the supply of aircraft, their materials and accessories, under the direction of the Ministry of Munitions so as to ensure greater efficiency, speed, and economy both in construction and output?
The whole question of the manufacture, supply and distribution of aircraft, and their accessories, for the Naval and Military Air Services is being investigated by the Joint War Air Committee. The points raised in the question can be more satisfactorily dealt with when I am in possession of the Committee's recommendations.
Are there any resignations pending which are likely to affect the decision of this Committee?
I should like notice of that question.
Air Services Debate
asked the Prime Minister if he will say when he will be able to give the promised day for the discussion of the position of the Air Service on the Motion standing in the name of the hon. Member for Brentford?
I am afraid it will be impossible to give a day for this discussion before Easter. I understand that this subject has been a good deal discussed in the House during the last three weeks.
Did not the right hon. Gentleman on a former occasion, or did the Secretary of State for the Colonies, indicate to the House there would be an opportunity before the 15th April?
We will do our best. I do not know that it makes much difference whether it is immediately before or after. We will give a day.
In view of the urgency of the matter, may I press the right hon. Gentleman to give a very early day for this discussion?
Questions
Damage from Shells
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to a resolution of the Stoke-on-Trent County Borough Council expressing the opinion that it is unjust that any individual be required to bear the burden of actual damage inflicted in this country by the enemy or to pay for insurance against such damage; that the Government scheme of insurance constitutes an unfair and very great hardship in many cases, and strongly urging upon His Majesty's Government that the expense of such damage should be borne nationally out of the Imperial revenue; and will he say what steps the Government intend to take in dealing with the same?
The Prime Minister has asked me to answer this question. The resolution referred to has been received, and the representations that have been made to the Government on this subject have been considered, but it is not proposed to alter the basis of the existing Government insurance scheme, which it is believed is well adapted for its purpose.
Promised Inquiry
asked the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to state the nature and scope of the inquiry into the air service promised by the Under-Secretary of State for War?
I hope to make a statement on the subject early next week.
Enemy Raids
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention has been called to the fact that although air raids have taken place upon towns on the east and north-east coasts as long ago as twelve months and more, yet in many cases no measures have been taken to stop these raids; and will he take immediate action, such as the military authorities may suggest, to endeavour to stop the damage to life and property which is still going on?
As I informed the House in Debate, everything that is possible is being done to deal with Zeppelin raids, and to secure at the earliest moment that the needs of the country should be met without in any way depleting the provision for the Forces at the front.
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether, during a recent air raid on the South-Eastern Coast, a guard party was unable to fire at a hostile aircraft flying very low owing to the absence of an officer, and was, owing to lack of direct telephonic communication with its headquarters, unable to obtain in time authority to fire; and, if so, whether he will give orders either that an officer shall always be present with a guard party or that in his absence the guard party shall have authority to fire?
I have no information as to this alleged incident.
Seaplanes
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the suggestions put forward for the immediate adaptation for offensive action of certain types of seaplanes at present unemployable will now be adopted, in view of the necessity of striking an immediate blow in aerial offensive against the Zeppelin bases of the enemy?
I do not think it desirable in the public interest to answer questions about future naval operations.
Briitish Raid in Schleswig
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he has received any information of a more detailed character than that appearing in the Press to the effect that two of the three British sea planes captured in the raid on the Zeppelin station in Schleswig were forced to land owing to engine trouble; and has he any information as to why the third seaplane, which was captured at sea, was unable to reach the coast?
Naturally, we have no information from the seaplanes in question. For the rest, my hon. Friend has access, in common with all of us, to the statements which the enemy has published or allowed to be published.
Is this country, then, to rely for information solely on enemy reports?
This is obviously a. case where the information asked for cannot be given.
Aircraft Engines
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, having regard to the admitted urgency of producing engines of proved efficiency for aircraft, he can inform the House what negotiations have taken place for the purpose of securing the rights of construction in this country of a famous Barcelona engine; whether the offer of a well-known British engineering firm to manufacture and supply these engines has been refused, and for what reason?
I am afraid I cannot undertake publicly to give particulars respecting the provision of warlike material. If my hon. Friend desires to be supplied with any facts for his own private information in regard to this and similar matters, I shall be very glad to give his request every consideration.
Ascent of Aeroplanes (S. E. District)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the General Officer Commanding the South Eastern District has power to give direct orders to the aerodromes within his district for the ascent of aeroplanes, or whether he can only communicate these orders through the War Office?
As I have stated, I cannot give any information as to the system of command or communication adopted for this purpose, but I may say that the assumption underlying this question and others which have been put, that leave has to be obtained from London before an aeroplane may ascend, is incorrect.
Government Offices (Women Labour)
asked the Prime Minister (1) whether any rule or practice exists preventing women over forty years of age being engaged or employed in Government offices; and (2) whether, as among women applicants for Government employment any preference is given to the wives of men on active service?
There is no general rule against the employment of women over forty years of age as temporary clerks in Government offices. In practice, however, heads of Departments (in whose discretion such matters rest) find that younger women are generally more suitable. In view of the number of vacancies for these appointments the question of giving preference to applicants whose husbands are on military service does not in practice arise, but it is the practice of the Civil Service Commissioners to fill appointments in this way wherever possible.
Does that statement mean that there is no general rule preventing the employment of women over forty in Government offices, and that there is no difficulty in the way of their being engaged at that age?
There is no rule which prevents their engagement, but the head of each Department must be responsible for the qualifications of the people he desires to employ.
Shipping Organisation
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government are in possession of a scheme drawn up by Mr. Hughes, Prime Minister of Australia, for the organisation of shipping; if so, whether it is proposed to accept the scheme; and, if not, will he give his reasons for its rejection?
No, Sir, the Government have not had any such scheme brought to their notice.
Australia (Wheat Crop)
asked the Prime Minister (1) whether some 3,000,000 tons of wheat now await shipment in Australia; and what steps, if any, the Government propose to make in order to secure that supply for this country; and (2) whether the British Government asked the Commonwealth Government of Australia to lay down as much land as possible in wheat in 1915; whether this request was communicated to the Australian farmers, who loyally complied with the request; whether, as the result of their efforts, wheat to the value of 30 to 40 millions sterling has been produced; and whether the Government propose to allow the loss of the new production to fall on Australia or to bring the wheat to this country and so cheapen the price of bread?
The loyal efforts of the Australian farmers to increase their wheat acreage are cordially recognised, and they are to be congratulated on the fact that Nature rewarded those efforts by giving an exceptionally bountiful crop. With the present demands upon tonnage the shipment of so large a quantity as 3,000,000 tons for so long a distance must obviously take a very considerable time, but every effort is being made to render such assistance as is possible. The Committee which is now engaged in purchasing wheat for the Allies has taken considerable quantities of Australian wheat, and up to the present between 500,000 and 600,000 tons altogether have been either already shipped or bought for early shipment.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware there are 3,000,000 tons awaiting shipment?
German Scientists (British Learned Societies)
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that considerable offence is being caused to many British scientists by the retention in the list of members of the Royal Society, the Chemical Society, and other learned societies of Great Britain of German scientists, including some who have been instrumental in concocting poison gas and other like inhumane products of modern science used in the destruction of British soldiers; and whether the Government propose to take any action in the matter?
This is not a matter in which the Government has any power to intervene.
Spirits (Consumption)
asked the Prime Minister whether he will now consider taking steps to prohibit the sale of spirits during the continuance of the War?
No, Sir; I am not at present prepared to adopt this suggestion.
Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been called to the enormous increase in the consumption of spirits in this country during the War?
I do not know that "enormous" is exactly the right word to apply.
Three million gallons!
Blockade
asked the Prime Minister what are the powers of the Minister of Blockade; and will he state by what Act of Parliament, patent, or Order in Council those powers are conferred and defined?
With regard to the first part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Stockton-on-Tees on the 23rd February last. With regard to the second, the executive powers of the Government are sufficient for this purpose, and none of the instruments mentioned in the question are necessary.
Old Age Pensions
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that a rise of nearly 50 per cent. in the cost of the common articles of food has reduced the real value of the old age pension from 5s. to 3s.; that as a result of this hardship is being inflicted on many of the old age pensioners, some of whom are being driven to pauperism and beggary; that the condition of numbers of them has been rendered worse financially because grandsons and others who used to assist them are now with the Colours; and whether, in view of the sympathetic answer returned by him to the deputation from the Miners' Federation of Great Britain, the Government intend taking steps to supplement the amount payable to these old people?
I am aware that old age pensioners, together with other persons of small and fixed incomes, have been adversely affected owing to a rise in prices and other causes attributable to the War. As regards the proposal that old age pensions should be increased, I have nothing to add to the answer given on this subject by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the 21st March in reply to a question by the hon. Member for the Bridgeton Division of Glasgow. With regard to the second paragraph of the hon. Member's question, I would point out that there has been a decrease this year as compared with 1915 in the number of persons over seventy years in receipt of poor relief.
Defence of the Realm Act
Seizure of Pamphlets, North Salford
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Deparement whether it is with the knowledge and sanction of the Home Office that a newspaper office in the Parliamentary Division of North Salford has been again raided and papers and documents seized; and has he himself seen and judged the opinions expressed in these papers before sanctioning this act, or has it been left to a competent military authority to decide that this expression of opinion in a corner of Salford is likely to prejudice His Majesty's relations with foreign Powers?
Proceedings were taken with respect to nineteen pamphlets, on instructions from the Director of Public Prosecutions, before a magistrate of the City of London some time ago, and, after a prolonged inquiry, an order was made for their destruction. An appeal with respect to one of them was heard by Quarter Sessions and was dismissed. My attention having been drawn to the fact that the same pamphlets were still being published in Salford and circulated from there, I requested the Salford police to take steps to stop their further circulation.
I do not quite undertand whether the right hon. Gentleman sanctioned the destruction of these papers, or whether it was left to the military authorities?
The order for the destruction of the papers was made by a Court.
A Military Court?
No, by a City of London, magistrate. The action for the destruction of the papers was taken on my suggestion.
Is it not the fact that these same pamphlets, or a number of them, were before the Salford stipendiary in the middle of last year, and that learned gentleman handed them back to the publisher, saying that they were quite innocuous? Was not the continued sale of them in accordance with that decision?
I am not quite sure they were the same pamphlets?
Some were.
In any case the pamphlets having been condemned after prolonged inquiry by a magistrate and an appeal entered in respect of only one having been dismissed by Quarter Sessions, I thought the circulation of the pamphlets in any part of the country ought not to be permitted.
Dared the right hon. Gentleman take the responsibility of destroying them?
Yes, Sir.
Agriculture (Labour)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture the approximate number of men who have left the land and joined the Army; can he give an assurance that a sufficient number of men have been left on the land to ensure that the total area of land under cultivation will not, for want of labour, be less than last year; whether he has any information that in some districts, owing to the wet season and shortage of labour, a reduced area will be sown this spring; whether any request has been made by the Board to the War Office that soldiers who have a knowledge of farming should be allowed to assist the farmers during the next two months and during harvest time; and, if not, will he do so?
The Department have no exact information on the first point raised, though what information they have suggests that at least 200,000 men have gone from agriculture to the Army. With regard to the second point, I regret that I cannot give this assurance; but it is hoped that the arrangements which have been approved by the Government for the exemption from military service of men engaged in certain agricultural occupations will, if strictly observed by the local tribunals, secure the retention of sufficient labour to prevent further serious interference with the cultivation of the land. With regard to the third point, I regret that the information which the Board have received from some districts shows it to be probable that, owing to the causes mentioned by my hon. Friend, there may be some reduction in the area of land sown this spring. With regard to the last point, the Department have been in constant communication with the War Office on the question of the release of soldiers who are able to be spared from military duties for return to farm work. General instructions on this subject have been issued by the War Office which have been in force for some time and are widely known to farmers; and special arrangements have just been announced by the Army Council under which General Officers Commanding-in-Chief may liberate ploughmen and horsemen for the month of April. In view, however, of the necessary uncertainty of the military position, farmers would be well advised not to rely too much on this source of labour supply, but to make early arrangements to supplement the essential skilled labour which will be available after seed time by women and holiday labour.
When were the instructions issued by the War Office to release ploughmen for the month of April; was it last week?
Yes, Sir, I think it was last week.
Will the hon. Gentleman also take steps to release heavy draught horses temporarily for these men to work with?
I have inquired about the release of heavy draught horses for very essential work in regard to timber, and I am informed by the War Office that they have no heavy draught horses they can release. I will bear the suggestion in mind.
Truck Act
asked the Home Secretary whether the firm of Messrs. Harriot and Company, of Aberdeen, Government contractors to the War Office for all kinds of hosiery work, are making deductions for broken needles from the workers' wages contrary to the provisions of the Truck Act; and if he intends prosecuting the firm?
Inquiries are being made, and I will inform my hon. Friend of the result.
Budget Resolutions
Cider and Perry
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the fact that English cider contains from 4.71 to 9.28 per cent. by volume of real alcohol and that the average of many published figures is 6 per cent.; and whether, considering that this alcoholic strength closely approximates to that of beer as commonly sold and that many teetotalers are misled by the non-taxation of cider into the belief that it is a temperance beverage, he will, in the interests of the revenue and of temperance, consider the desirability of imposing such an Excise Duty upon cider as will, while conceding some preferential treatment to this home product, bring it into line with other light alcoholic drinks and distinguish from mineral waters?
I would refer my hon. Friend to my financial statement of Tuesday last.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether he regards cider as being non-alcoholic or whether he regards certain mineral waters as containing a notable percentage of alcohol?
I must have notice of that.
Excess Profits Tax
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if it is intended under the Excess Profits Tax that firms who make up their books to 31st December each year should, for the year 1914, be taxed for the whole of that year; and, if so, why firms working under these conditions should be taxed for the whole twelve months of 1914 whilst firms whose accounting period is July should be taxed for six months in that year only?
The Excess Profits Duty has regard to profits ascertained and enjoyed during the War, and the first period subject to charge is the first accounting period after the outbreak of war.
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer my question: Why some firms should be taxed for the whole twelve months while others should be taxed for six months only?
That would not follow. Of course, the hon. Gentleman will not leave out of view the fact that whatever happens at the beginning of the War there may be corresponding relief at the end of the War.
Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake that there shall be?
No, I cannot.
Motor Cars
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in connection with the increased taxation on motor cars, when it is proposed that this tax shall be payable; and whether it will be collected by and paid into the accounts of the local authorities?
No alteration is proposed as regards the date on which Motor Car Licence Duty is payable; but as indicated in the White Paper a supplementary licence for the remainder of the current calendar year will have to be taken out before 30th June or 15th August for cars, etc., which it is proposed to use after these dates. The new duties will, like the existing duties, be collected by the local authorities on behalf of the Exchequer.
Does the tax apply only to cars which are used?
I should imagine the local authority would insist upon the surrender of the number of the car in order to prevent it being used.
Will my right hon. Friend definitely answer the question and tell us when these taxes come into operation?
That is the precise answer which I have given,
Does that apply to commercial cars?
No.
Banks and Financial Institutions (Uncalled Capital)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has suggested to the banks and financial institutions on whose behalf the credit of the country was pledged in the crisis of 1914, and special provision made to ensure their stability, that they should call up their uncalled capital to facilitate the loan operations of the Government?
I do not think that the taking of the steps suggested would be in the national interest.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the matter when he comes to raise the £1,300,000,000 by loan for this year, in order to secure that it shall not bear an exorbitant rate of interest?
I am rather afraid the suggestion of my hon. Friend would probably increase the rate of interest.
Will it not also probably decrease the loan?
I think so, too.
Political Offices (Pensions)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the number of pensions paid in respect to political offices, including Law Officers of the Crown, and the-amount of such pensions yearly?
With my right hon. Friend's permission, I will publish this information in the OFFICIAL REPORT.—[ See Written Answers. ]
Would it not be far better to have the information to-day for the convenience of hon. Members?
It is a very long list of figures. I do not think I can usefully read them out to the House.
Do any of the Law Officers get pensions?
You wish they did!
They have forgotten to give it to me.
Income Tax (Weekly Wages)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the system, now in force to ascertain what persons are liable to Income Tax on weekly wages of £2 10s. a week and upwards; what arrangements are made to collect the Income Tax due from these persons; and what was the amount realised from this source in the past financial year?
On the general subject I may refer my hon. Friend to Sections 27 and 28 of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915, and to the Regulations under Section 28, which have been laid before this House. As explained in House of Commons Paper, No. 50, it is proposed, in the case of taxpayers to whom the system of quarterly instalments applies, to give an option to pay weekly by means of Income Tax stamps to be affixed to cards. The information asked for in the third part of the question is not available. I would point out that so far as income is earned and directly assessable, there would be no means of distinguishing the assessments for the year 1915–16 upon manual weekly wage earners from any other assessments in employment under Schedule D, because the quarterly system (for such wage earners) did not come into operation till the current financial year.
Has the right hon. Member come across any of these aristocratic wage-earning people who have paid Income Tax themselves, for I have not come across any?
I could easily come across them. I should have no difficulty in finding out a number of them.
I shall be very much obliged if the right hon. Gentleman will communicate the names to me.
Exchequer Bonds (Income Tax)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what are the arrangements in regard to the payment of Income Tax on Exchequer Bonds and upon the 15s. 6d. certificates, respectively?
I am obliged to my hon. Friend for asking this question, as I fear I misunderstood a supplementary question which he put to me on the 22nd March. I explained on that date, in reply to my hon. Friend's original question, the position with regard to War Savings Certificates. As regards Exchequer Bonds, a holder is liable to Income Tax on the interest he receives unless his total income from all sources does not exceed £130 a year. In order, so far as is reasonably possible, to save people who are entitled to exemption from Income Tax from the trouble of claiming repayment, it is arranged that a person whose total holding of Exchequer Bonds and 4½ per cent. War Loan Stock registered or deposited at the Post Office taken together does not exceed £200 shall be paid the interest without deduction. If such holder is not entitled to exemption from Income Tax, he would be liable to return the interest for direct assessment.
Treatment of Horses
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he can state how many societies are at present collectinf funds in this country to ameliorate the treatment and condition of horses engaged in warfare; whether the present arrangement involves overlapping and waste of money and effort; and whether it is proposed to take any steps to obtain greater efficiency, co-ordination, and control?
I am aware that funds are being collected in this country by more than one society, but I do not know by how many. It is desirable that it should be known that the only society authorised by the War Office to collect funds and coordinate offers of assistance for horses of the British Army is the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, to which all contributions, gifts, and offers of assistance should be addressed. I may add that this society is working in close connection with the Army Veterinary Department. I agree with my hon. Friend that the collection of funds by more than one society involves waste of effort. The remedy is, I think, for the public to appreciate fully the fact that the authorised society for this purpose is the one I have mentioned.
Furlough (Territorial Force)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he will consider the advisability of granting a furlough at the end of the first term of service instead of at the end of the first five years for Territorials?
By the first term of service my hon. Friend means, I think, at the end of the four years making up the original period of engagement. The furlough is granted to induce men to reengage on completing their engagement, but to offer a month's furlough at the end of the four years would not help make a man re-engage at the end of five years, and there would not, therefore, be an adequate reason for offering it.
Prisoners of War (Burial With Military Honours)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether British prisoners of war in Germany are buried with military honours; and, if not, whether he will issue orders that no German prisoners of war in this country are to be so buried?
Article 19 of the Annexe to The Hague Convention says that the same rules shall be followed as to the burials of prisoners of war as for soldiers of the National Army and that due regard shall be paid to their grade and rank. The custom in this country is based on the article of the Convention quoted. The general custom as regards the burial of prisoners of war in Germany is not known, but the War Office is aware of cases in which military honours have been accorded.
Officers' Training Corps (Transfer as Privates)
( by Private Notice ) asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that more than 150 members of the Officers' Training Corps at Berkhampstead have received in- timation that they are about to be transferred to the 60th Division as privates, and whether he will take steps to prevent this injustice being done?
Certainly I will take steps to see that no injustice is done. It may be possible that the reports of these young men who are training were not sufficiently good to enable them to obtain commissions. I have not had time to investigate it, but I make that suggestion as the possible reason. If my right hon. Friend will put down another question I will give him a considered answer.
Does it depend entirely on their efficiency as soldiers and not on their social position?
Vagrants
asked (1) the President of the Local Government Board if he will give the percentage of the decline of vagrants relieved in workhouses during the month of January last in unions where the way-ticket system has been adopted or not adopted, respectively; and (2) the number of vagrants relieved in the workhouses of England and Wales during the month of January, 1914, 1915, and 1916, and in how many of such workhouses is the way-ticket system for vagrants in operation?
I will send my hon. Friend a statement containing information on the subject.
Metropolitan Water Board (Deficiency Account)
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been drawn to the deficiency account of the Metropolitan Water Board for last year and the estimated loss for this year; whether he sent this Board the circular issued to all other local authorities in London, urging them to reduce their expenditure during war time; and does he propose to take any action on the losses made by this Board, which loss will have to be met by a rate made on London ratepayers this year and next year?
The answer to the first two parts of the question is in the affirmative. As to the last part of the question, I may refer to the provisions contained in the Metropolis Water Act, 1902, for meeting deficiencies. The question whether it is desirable that these provisions should be altered has been under the consideration of the Metropolitan Water Board for some time, and I do not myself propose to take any action at present.
Contractors Act (Members of Parliament)
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the Act, Geo. III., c. 45, prohibiting, under very heavy penalties, contractors with Government Departments from sitting and voting in the House of Commons, and declaring such persons to be incapable of being elected to the House of Commons, has resulted in hardship to individuals who have been frequently unaware of such contracts made by private unincorporated firms of which they are members, and wholly free from influencing Government or from being influenced thereby, whereas the Act does not affect incorporated trading companies contracting in their own capacity of which not merely the members but the directors are eligible to be Members of this House; and whether, having regard to the fact that a member of a private firm having a contract with the Government is less likely to be affected in his Parliamentary control thereby than a director of an incorporated trading company contracting with the Government every day in matters involving large sums of money, the Government will take into consideration the propriety of legislation for the amendment or the repeal of the Contractors Act?
I am advised that my hon. and learned Friend's view of the law is correct, but I am not prepared, in view of the many pressing claims on the attention of Parliament and the Government, to introduce legislation on the subject.
Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind my view of the law in view of the approaching Debate?
Agricultural Rates Acts
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the high prices of agricultural produce and of the fact that the Agricultural Rates Acts are costing the taxpayers more than £1,500,000 a year, he will give an opportunity for a discussion of the Motion for the discontinuance of these Acts standing in the name of the hon. Member for the Tradeston Division of Glasgow before the introduction of the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill?
No, Sir, I am afraid I am not prepared to give a day for this Motion.
Kew Gardens
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether any complaint has been received with reference to the exclusion, or partial exclusion, of the public desiring refreshments at the Kew Gardens pavilion from the lawns surrounding the tea-house; and whether it is in accordance with the contractor's agreement that the best positions on the lawns should be monopolised by tables at which teas can only be obtained at a fixed charge of 1s., persons requiring a simpler meal being relegated to a few inferior positions adjacent thereto?
I am informed that the answer to both questions is in the negative.
Orders of the Day
Business of the House
Will the Prime Minister tell us what the business will be for next week?
On Monday we shall take the Second Reading of the Finance (New Duties) Bill;
On Tuesday, the Committee stage of the Local Government (Emergency Provisions) Bill, and stages of small Bills on the Paper;
On Wednesday, the Committee stage of the Finance Bill;
And on Thursday we shall continue the discussion of the Finance Bill.
Perhaps it will be convenient that I should give the further business for this part of the Session and make a short statement. The Government is at present engaged in the examination of the actual figures as regards recruits obtained and obtainable under the present system, and in estimating what further recruits are necessary. The Government are paying full regard to all the material factors and considerations involved and will come to a decision on the question on their own responsibility. They will announce that decision to the House, and they will then be ready to give a day for discussion of the matter before the House rises for the Easter Recess.
in the event of such a discussion becoming necessary, can we put down a definite Motion?
Yes, I should think so.
Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the question I put to him, which he said he would answer at the end of Questions, whether he will bring in all men over eighteen years of age whether eighteen last August or not?
Is it possible to give any indication when the House will rise for Easter, and for how long?
I think it will be very shortly before Easter that the House will rise.
How long?
I hope for some time.
Ordered, That the Proceedings on the Motion relating to Members' Salaries and Allowances have precedence this day of the Business of Supply.—[ The Prime Minister. ]
Members' Salaries and Allowances
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a Member of the House of Commons shall not receive a Salary and Allowance as a Member of the House and, in addition, full pay as a member of His Majesty's naval or military forces for the same period; and that in such a case a Member shall be entitled to elect whether he receives his salary and allowance as a Member of the House or his pay as a member of His Majesty's naval or military forces."
The Resolution which stands upon the Paper provides that a Member of Parliament in receipt of naval or military pay shall not also receive salary as a Member. In other words, it puts him in the same position as if, as a Member, he is a Minister or an officer of the Household, except for the minor difference that under the present Motion a Member of Parliament can choose which salary he will keep. This is not the first time that this subject has been raised in this House, and I will briefly recapitulate the history of the proposal. At the beginning of the War it was decided that Civil servants serving in the forces, with the exception of certain technical classes known, I believe, as "Solomon's Own," should continue to draw their civil pay, minus their Service pay and separation allowance, if any. In other words, a Civil servant was put in the position in which a Member of Parliament would be placed as regards salary under the present Motion. The question then arose whether a similar deduction should be made in the salaries of Members of Parliament. It was decided by the Government of the day that a deduction should be made, the Member's salary being taken for the purpose as £300 a year, which is the salary reckoned for the purpose of Income Tax, allowing £100 a year as expenses. The accounting officer of the House of Commons Vote was informed of the decision of the Government by the Treasury in January, 1915. Questions were asked in this House on the subject, and in consequence the matter was raised on the Third Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill on 11th March, 1915, by the hon. and learned Member for North-East Cork (Mr. T. M. Healy), who argued that the action of the Treasury was in contravention of the terms of the Appropriation Act. My right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary (Mr. Montagu) offered to leave the question to be decided by the House on the Estimates of the ensuing year—that is to say, of the year 1915–16—and in accordance with this offer the Prime Minister stated in March, 1915, that both House of Commons salary and naval and military pay would be issued in full until the House had had an opportunity of giving the matter further consideration. The question was not again raised in the financial year 1915–16, and no action was taken until the preparation of the Estimates for the current year. It was then decided to bring before the House the proposal that Members should choose which salary they would take—the salary as a Member of Parliament or the naval or military pay—and, I will not say in anticipation of the vote of this House, but in order to be prepared for the vote of the Members of this House, a reduction corresponding to the estimated amount of reduction was made in the House of Commons Vote for the year. I must remind the House that this subject was considered by the Retrenchment Committee, who, in their Final Report, made a recommendation upon the matter which I am sure the House will consider worthy of the fullest consideration. The terms of the recommendation were as follows:
"Attention was, however, drawn to the fact that no deduction has been made from the salaries of Members serving in His Majesty's Forces on the analogy of the deduction made from the salaries of public officials who are during the present emergency, receiving naval or military pay, and that as a result the authorities of both Houses of Parliament have felt bound to give their employés the same terms as are given to Members of Parliament. This point, we understand, was the subject of a brief discussion in the House last year, but it was dealt with rather as a question of privilege than on its merits. We are aware that the payment of salary to a Member of Parliament is not dependent on his attendance at the House, but we believe that on consideration no sufficient reason will be found for allowing Members and officers of the House to receive salary both from civil and war Votes in respect of the same period, and we recommend that they should elect to receive either their naval or military pay, or their civil salaries, but not both."
It is strictly in accord with this recommendation of the Retrenchment Committee that a provisional deduction has been made from the Estimates for 1916–17 in respect of salaries of Members receiving naval or military pay.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say how much it comes to?
Before I conclude I will give the right hon. and learned Gentleman the figures. The charge would only take effect when the first quarterly payment for the current year becomes due—that is to say, at the end of June—and is, of course, dependent on the House accepting the Resolution now before them. It must not be understood to be admitted that as a matter of legal or constitutional propriety it is necessary to ask for a specific Resolution of the House, but in the circumstances, and in view of the objections previously raised, it is considered, and I am sure it is in accordance with the general view of the House, that it is desirable to do so. The actual reduction made in the Estimate is £40,000. If I may briefly summarise the arguments which have been used already in support of the proposal, I should say that they are these: In the first place, employés generally of the State are not receiving their full civil pay while serving in the naval or military forces of the Crown. Secondly—and this is an argument which I am sure will appeal to the House—while payment of a Member's salary is not conditional on his attendance in this House, it would not seem desirable that he should receive salary as a Member when, by his other engagements to the State, for which he is being paid, he has rendered it impossible for himself to give to the House the attendance which would ordinarily be expected from him.
What about his private engagements keeping him away from the House?
4.0 P.M.
The hon. Member asks about the private engagements of a Member keeping him away from the House. The House, at any rate,, does expect attendance of him, and if he fails to give attendance, at any rate the House has no official cognisance of it, but it has official and direct cognisance of the fact that, as an officer in the naval and military forces of the Crown, he has entered into an engagement which precludes him from giving the attendance which the House has a right to expect. I think that that constitutes a very great difference. In the third place—and this is a new fact since the last discussion—I am sure that the House will desire to give the fullest consideration to the recommendation of the Retrenchment Committee. I know that other and larger issues may be raised upon this Motion, but upon these I do not desire to touch. The Motion which I move is one upon which I readily recognise different views may be taken, but I am sure that it raises no controversial or party question. I put it before the House as the view of the Treasury supported by the Government, and I ask the House to give its decision upon it quite apart from any other considerations which may be opened up by a discussion of the larger issues.
I hope that the House will permit me to say one word at this stage. The House will remember that on the 2nd of March, when the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) rose to move his Amendment on the Vote on Account, a discussion took place with the Chairman of Ways and Means in the Chair as to whether that was a suitable time to raise the discussion which the right hon Gentleman wished to raise. An arrangement was then come to that if His Majesty's Government would put down a Resolution dealing with the particular topic an opportunity would then be given to the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London of meeting it with an Amendment. I do not know whether that could be called a Parliamentary bargain or an understanding. At all events, it was arranged on the floor of the House, openly, with the Chairman of Ways and Means in the Chair, and I may add that I was also consulted as to whether such an arrangement could be carried out, and I was agreeable to it. Therefore I must now consider it as having been made.
Then I find suddenly a number of Amendments which appear on the Paper any one of which being taken would cut out the Amendment of the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London. Whether such Amendments were accepted or rejected, there would be an end of the possibility of the right hon. Baronet moving his Amendment. I do not suppose for one moment that any of those Amendments were put down with that intention. Far from it. They raise in themselves important issues. But to call any one of those would have the effect that the opportunity which was offered and arranged for to be given to the right hon. Baronet would be taken away. Therefore, the bargain would not be kept. In those circumstances I feel compelled to see the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London first.
On the question of Order in reference to the Amendment which stands in my name on the Paper it raises a question which is pertinent to the Motion before the House, and certainly was not put down with any desire or intention of cutting out the Amendment of the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London. But it raises a question which I know interests a great number of Members of the House, and I would suggest to you that if you begin, as you state, to see first the right hon. Baronet you could put the question in such a way as to reserve to me the right, by a slight alteration of the drafting, of raising this question which I think, in all fairness, we ought to be permitted to raise on the Government Amendment.
There is no objection. The hon. Member for East Mayo, I think, will have no difficulty in altering slightly the form of his words in such a way as to bring them in as an addendum to the Resolution. Of course, I would not object naturally to any Amendment proposed to be added to the end of the Resolution, but I would not call on any Amendment which would come before that of the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City.
Might I ask whether, in case the Amendment of my right hon. Friend the Member for the City became the substantive question, it would remain open either then to amend the substantive question by the insertion of words or by the addition of words?
If the Amendment of the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City were carried, simply striking out the latter part of the Resolution, the first part of the Resolution would stand, and it would be open to amend it by an addition, as long as the Amendment did not contravene the decision at which the House had arrived by accepting the Amendment of the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City.
The proposition of my right hon. Friend is an absolutely general proposition. What I want to know is whether that could be converted from a general proposition into a modified declaration of the judgment of the House?
I do not see how that could be possible. If the House decided by a majority that no Members are to receive any salary, I do not see how that could be qualified.
Thank you.
On a point of Order. As every Member of the House has, primâ facie , the right to put down an Amendment to any Motion that may appear on the Paper, can any bargain possibly be entered into between Gentlemen on this side and right hon. Gentlemen on the other side which precludes a private Member from putting down an Amendment?
It is open to every hon. Member to put down an Amendment, but I must also remind the hon. Member that, primâ facie , I have the right of seeing any one of them, and that I am not bound to take the first on the Paper.
Might I point out that the usual course is for you to take them in their order?
I can assure the hon. Member that he is completly mistaken about that. I have been too good natured, perhaps. There is the inherent right in the Chair to see one particular Member and not to observe another.
On the point of Order raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Exeter (Mr. Duke). I submit that if the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment is adopted and that the House merely decides to leave out the proviso put forward by the Government, it will be in order for another hon. Member to substitute another proviso of a different kind.
Yes. So long as it does not contravene the decision at which the House will have arrived in accepting the Amendment of the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City.
May I ask if the Amendment of the right hon. Baronet that the words after "House" in line 3 should be cut out, were to be carried, will the first three lines then be put to the House to decide whether they are to be adopted or not as a substantive Motion?
I must put what remains of the question as a substantive Motion, and the House, of course, can reject that if it pleases, or amend it, or adopt it.
I beg to move, to leave out all the words after the word "House" ("as a Member of the House and").
Before I advance the argument in regard to the Amendment which stands in my name, I feel bound to say a few words as to what exactly the Government propose to do. The Government propose to make an alteration in the Resolution which was passed by this House on the 10th of August, 1911, and I think it would be well that the House should understand the reasons which were advanced in August, 1911, for departing from the ancient precedents which had endured for more than 200 years, namely, that Members of Parliament gave their services free. On the 10th of August, 1911, the right hon. Gentleman the present Minister of Munitions (Mr. Lloyd George) brought forward a Motion providing that all Members should receive a salary of £400 a year. He stated that he did so on one ground only. He explained why we were abandoning the experiment which was made in 1780 of an unremunerated Membership of Parliament: pointed out that they were small, and that the Division Lists of 1909 were much larger. If I had taken the trouble to provide myself with the Division Lists of the last twenty months, I think I could have shown that they were smaller than the Division Lists which the right hon. Gentleman held up on that occasion. Then he said: salaries of Members were given in the exceptional circumstances that there was a very great deal of work to do, a very great deal more work in those years than had been customary in previous years. How do we stand now? We are meeting three days a week. [HON. MEMBERS: "Four days a week !"] I did not understand that we were to meet on Monday, but after all, one swallow does not make a summer, and one day does not make any difference; as a rule we meet three days a week. We have no Grand Committees, hardly any Bills, and as a rule most of us go home to dinner. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] It has been extremely, difficult to keep a House even on large questions after nine or ten o'clock at night. There has hardly ever been enough Members for the Closure, and generally not more than forty or fifty Members have been in the House. Under the circumstances, I think it is quite right that the question whether or not Members should be paid should be raised.
What is it the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes? He proposes that a distinction should be made, and that certain hon. Members who are now serving their country should not receive both salaries. He stated that Civil servants, when they joined the Army, did not receive their salaries as Civil servants, but as military officers or soldiers. But the Civil servants are in a very different position from that of Members of Parliament. They have to attend their work regularly; Members of Parliament have not. Let me call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the fact, which he seems rather to have forgotten, that when in August, 1911, this Resolution was passed, there was no provision for any Members to attend. They were to obtain their salaries whether they attended, or whether they did not. That being so, why should the right hon Gentleman single out for deprivation of their salaries those Members who are perhaps risking their lives, and certainly are giving their time, in the service of the country? We have two instances. There is the instance of the hon. Member for one of the Divisions of St. Pancras, who has been away for two years. I do not know whether he is drawing his salary or whether he is not, but he has got the power to draw it. The right hon. Gentleman does not propose to take his salary, but he does propose to take the salary of a man who may have given up his profession in which he was earning a considerable income, and is now risking his life in fighting for his country. His salary is to be taken, and the salary of the hon. Member for St. Pancras—[An HON. MEMBER: "East St. Pancras—Mr. Martin]—is to be left to him. I am not casting any reflection on my hon. and gallant Friend, one of the Members for St. Pancras (Captain Jessel), and I hope I am not casting any reflection upon any Member for St. Pancras. But the hon. Gentleman to whom I refer is not the only example There was the hon. Member for the Hyde Division of Cheshire (Mr. Neilson), who was away for eighteen months. I do not know whether he drew the salary which the right hon. Gentleman wishes to take away from him. I think that under those circumstances the right hon. Gentleman is not justified in proposing that those Members who are endeavouring to do their duty to their country should be deprived of their salaries, while the salaries are left to other Members.
Therefore, it is that I propose the Motion which stands in my name. I myself, I do not deny it, am frankly opposed to the principle of the payment of Members. I was one of those who took part in the Division which took place in August, 1911, against the payment of Members. I must confess I cannot see on what principle of the Constitution Members of Parliament should receive payment by the Treasury. They sit in Parliament not as representatives of the State, but as representatives of their constituencies, and their duty is to watch and control the administration by which they are now paid. That seems to me to be a very curious position. In fact, they take money from the body whom they are supposed to watch and control. I think that is a very wrong thing to do.
Do not railway directors?
Railway directors are paid servants; we are not paid servants. A railway company and the Houses of Parliament are two different things. Up to four and a half years ago Members were not the paid servants of anyone.
Members in the past were paid.
Yes, they were paid, but by their constituents, and I have no objection to that practice being reverted to. I think that would be a very good practice. It might have the effect of impelling hon. Members who are at loggerheads with their constituents—there are one or two, I think, in the House now—to go to their constituents or be deprived of their salaries. As it is now, while they are not representing their constituencies, while they have been requested by their constituencies to resign, they still remain Members of this House, and take money against the wishes of their constituents as salary for doing work which their constituents do not approve of. I cannot myself conceive that that can be approved of by any single Member of this House. It has been said that my Motion is a breach of the party truce, if carried. Really whether it is carried or not does not matter, for the mere fact of my having put this Motion down is a breach of the party truce. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I recognise that, at any rate, some Members of the House agree with that statement. I do not notice any cheer from the Front Bench, because I was going to point out to the House that if the party truce has been broken, it has been broken by the Front Bench; it is the right hon. Gentleman who has broken the party truce by putting down this Amendment to alter what has been passed by this House, and that Motion must have been put down long before I put down my Amendment, or had any idea of putting it down, and therefore the breaking of the party truce has been done by the-right hon. Gentleman, one of the leading members of the Government. I would ask, if it is competent for the right hon. Gentleman to make an Amendment of a Resolution which was come to by the House some years ago, or to make a partial Amendment, whether it is not also competent for me, or any Member of the House, to make any further Amendment? Once a subject of this sort is introduced it is open to any right hon. Member or Member of the House, as my right hon. Friend suggested, to make an alteration, and therefore I am doing nothing more than has been done by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who introduced this Motion.
I should like to say one word upon what I think is a very serious question, and that is the application of the party truce. The party truce, so far as my knowledge goes, was this, that no controversial legislation was to be introduced. I never heard when it was necessary to make some saving in the expenditure of the country that that saving was to be prevented, because, at one time or another, some particular group of hon. Members opposite were not in favour of it. We were told by the right hon. Gentleman the Minister for Munitions (Mr. Lloyd George) that one of the most important things that was wanted to win the War was silver bullets. I am not sure that that was altogether a very fortunate expression or phrase, but, at any rate, it is necessary that we should have money, and it is necessary that we should economise. How often have we been told by hon. or right hon. Gentlemen opposite of the necessity of economy? I see my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Bonar Law) on the Treasury Bench, and I see the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister, and i remember listening to their weighty words at the Guildhall about a year ago, words in which they recommended everybody present to exercise economy and retrenchment, and I ventured to say on that occasion that I would do so if they would give me a lead. That sentiment was cheered to the echo at the Guildhall.
I now suggest to them a means of retrenchment by Members giving up their salaries, and then the right hon Gentleman comes down and says, "Oh, that is a breach of the party truce!" If we are going to win the War we can have no questions of a party truce when we are dealing with the finances of that War. The only way in which we can consider questions of finance is whether or not they are suitable for the service of the country. Only the other day in another place, when there was a question of saving a sum of money, Lord Crewe made the same answer. I say again that we can never be successful if our financial questions are to be hampered and hindered by the party politics and party shibboleths which occurred when the old conditions existed. After all, it is not so very long ago that we were told that the museums were to be closed, and an hon. Friend of mine got up and said that it was a wrong thing to do. Was that breaking the party truce? But the Government pressed their Motion against the wishes of my hon. Friend, and they saved £50,000. We now come down and ask the Government to save £250,000, but because it is to come out of our own pockets it is not to be done. I feel strongly upon this question, and I believe the country feel strongly on it too. I am glad that I have had the opportunity of raising it. I shall go to a Division, and I hope and trust that large numbers of Members on both sides of the House will support me in the Lobby. I was asked to state, and I should not have mentioned it if I had not been asked to do so, that in moving this Amendment I am doing it as a private Member and not in my position as vice-chairman of the Unionist Committee. I should not have said so if some of the Members of the Unionist Committee had not asked me to do so. I do not say that with any desire to put myself in any undue position. I trust that from both sides of the House I shall have considerable support for my Amendment. I should like it to be thoroughly understood that if my Amendment is carried it only applies to one year, and there is nothing whatever to prevent payment of Members being brought in again when conditions go back to the state in which they were when the Minister of Munitions made his speech on the 10th August, 1911. I beg to move.
I am in the unfortunate position that I find myself at great variance with my right hon. Friend the Member for the City (Sir F. Banbury). I think it is not the fact that this is not a breach of the party truce. I think that you cannot by a collection of easy phrases get rid of the fact that, for now more than eighty years, the question of payment of Members has been a dividing question between the Radical party in this country and the Conservative party. I cannot exclude from my own mind the fact that no event, certainly in my experience of the proceedings of this House, has been attended with more intense bitterness than the success of His Majesty's Government, on a day which some of us can never forget, in the year 1911, in committing the House of Commons to the principle of payment of Members. I cannot treat that as though it were a non-political question. Whatever my views may have been in past times, or whatever they may be in the future with regard to this subject, I feel bound to approach it as a political subject, and to ask myself when a Member of great prominence in the Unionist party, holding a semi-official position in the Unionist party, to which he has just alluded, makes an Amendment to a proposal of the Prime Minister upon a matter of political importance such as that, "Can I regard it as anything else but a breach of the political truce?" If I am not ready to abandon the principle of coalition and the principle of political truce, this is the time when one has to stand up for it. The right hon. Gentleman appears to me to throw into our proceedings the apple of discord, and it is an idle thing to say that right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench opposite have done so. I think it is a particularly idle thing to say that in this proposal for preventing the duplication of salaries the right hon. Gentleman opposite is guilty of any breach of the political truce. It is playing with words.
I do not know, and I do not believe any man in this House really knows what our attitude towards the payment of Members will be when this terrible War is at an end. The whole scene of public life and social life changes before us from day to day, and here when public life and social life changes we are taken away, against the protest I noticed this morning of some of the right hon. Baronet's most enthusiastic admirers in London, from the consideration of grave public affairs, to spend a day in debating this old political controversy, upon which we fought to the utmost of our strength in past times, and upon which we have undoubtedly been beaten for this Parliament, and from, at any rate, something like a state of co-operation in the House and in the country to raise this same controversy and to galvanise it into existence. I wonder why? Really there might have been a better welcome for the right hon. Gentleman (the Prime Minister) on his return. There are those I notice who think that there could not be a better welcome than that the right hon. Gentleman should throw himself again into the arena of political controversy. I do not take that view of the matter myself, and I cannot help thinking that at a time when the right hon. Gentleman has come back to this House, the visible centre and symbol of the co-operation of the civilised Powers of Europe, it is not a very gracious thing that the first act of the House of Commons, at any rate, the first act proposed to it on the part of a Member of the Conservative party of the House, should be to give the right hon. Gentleman notice to quit on a political cry. There are gains alleged by this proposal. The first of them is the saving of money. I would tell my right hon. Friends how we can effect that. Those of us—I do not know how many there are—who are now presenting warrants for Members' salaries to be cashed, can refrain from presenting them. That is a very simple process. If £240,000 is the measure of this sum abstracted from the public Treasury, every man who can spare the £400 without sacrificing his efficiency in this House can effect that public economy by to-morrow morning, and if he wants to go a step further, he can write a letter to the proper officer of the House and say to him, "Please do not in this time of crisis send me any more warrants in payment of salary as a Member of Parliament," and the economy is effected.
Then there is the question of example. There is a sort of economy that is usually effected at the cost of other people. A Member who has £5,000, or £10,000, or £15,000 a year, and to whom it does not matter whether he has £400 more or not to put into the War Loan, sinks the £400 upon the condition that a Member who has £500 or £400 only does without his £400. That is not playing the game. If the House of Commons not only desires economy, as it does, but desires to set an example, I challenge, if I may respectfully do so, any Member of this House who is ready to join in it, to subscribe to a public manifesto, saying that there are so many Members of the House who no longer receive their salaries; but it is an invidious thing when four years have passed during which this House has sanctioned salaries to Members of Parliament to require Members who render their services here, services of great and particular value in this emergency, to have the ignominious choice of confessing that they cannot afford to carry on without the salary, or of subjecting themselves and their families to a deprivation to which they ought not to be subjected. That is upon the question of example. Those are two of the great gains which are said to result from the proposed adoption of my right hon. Friend's Amendment. There is another very grave and considerable question. It is said that the consistency of the Unionist party requires that Members who, in past years have pledged themselves on every occasion to resist the voting of salaries of Members of Parliament, shall support this Amendment. I can well believe that if there were not those pledges, this Amendment would not have been moved at this time. They are known to exist, and this Amendment puts men who made them in an embarrassing position, as to which they will have to consider not only personal feeling and considerations of political delicacy, but will have to consider the public interests and what their duty is towards a system in which we are playing a part which is as honourable as it is conspicuous, a national part in the prosecution of this War. It is a difficult question for many of my hon. Friends, but I venture to say it is a kind of question about which a Member need not much worry himself. Here is a proposal of the Prime Minister that there shall be no duplication of salaries. The Member who votes for that simply has an answer to any captious criticism which may be offered if he says, "I voted against the duplication of salaries and against the increase of public expenditure by that means." But there is more in it than that. There is the necessity of consistency. We have four years of record, nearly five, or four and a half at any rate, as a party since the night in August, 1911, when payment of Members was resolved upon. There has been an Appropriation Act in each year since that time. In 1914, and I have been at pains to verify the reference, I observe that the right hon. Gentleman opposite on five, if not on six, specific occasions challenged the leaders of the Unionist party to demand a set Debate and to take a Division on this very question. Why did they not do it? They did not do it because the fate of Ireland and of Ulster was in the balance, as we thought, and some of us were bending all our energies to avert Civil War in Ulster. I wonder what view those who will enthusiastically support this Amendment took at that time as to the subordination of this question to the question of Ulster in that day. It is the same kind of problem. You can rarely do the best thing; you must do the best you can, and here if the world were bare and we could debate again the question of payment of Members, what would be the best thing we do not know. The thing we have to do now, as my leaders and my right hon. Friend's leaders did in the year 1914, is to have regard to the due proportion of public events. If we could wait through 1911, 1912, 1913, 1914, and postpone this question to a General Election when there was no war, is it consistent with sanity, or decency, that when there is a war this bone of contention should be produced—this stale and stinking bone of contention—and thrown down to induce hon. Members, who have been co-operating here to the best of their ability to follow my right hon. Friend in forming a new party with the maxim, "Perish the alliance, but down with salaries for Members"? My right hon. Friend does not contemplate anything of the kind. But his sense of proportion is less than that of the right hon. Gentleman who used to sit on this bench and lead us. I have regretted many times that he is not sitting here still, but we have got him where he is doing what he thinks, and what we think, is his public duty.
I have referred to gains. What else is involved? First of all, there is the position of a large and valued party in this House. No man who has sat in this House for long years, who has observed the development of public affairs in the House during recent years, and seen the admirable part which some among the poorest, in a pecuniary sense, of our Members have rendered to promote the public interest during this crisis, can stand by unmoved when it is proposed to flout those Members, to put them in a position which, on their own resources, many of us know they cannot face, or to bid them go back to their constituencies, saying, "You did what you could for recruiting; you maintained the unity of the Kingdom and the Empire; your conduct has brought praise upon that branch of representation for which you stand; but the House has decided that we must give effect to an old party view of the Unionist party, and, notwithstanding the fact that war is raging, we must tell you that you must provide for yourselves, although we brought many of you here in the expectation that you would get £400 a year." You cannot deal with public affairs on any such peddling basis. That is one thing. There is another. What is to be the position of the leaders of the Unionist party who sit on the Treasury Bench if they cannot co-operate with the Leader of the House and the Leader of the party opposite on this question? I have not paused to consider whether the right hon. Gentleman is right or wrong about such a relatively insignificant question as this. This House is pledged, this party is pledged, unless he is going manifestly wrong, to give him every support which enthusiasm and patriotism can command for him. The leaders of the Unionist party in the Cabinet are, as I believe, acting up to that principle. Are we to paralyse them? Are we to degrade them in the eyes of their colleagues in the Government? This Amendment, if carried, seems to me to have the inevitable effect of withdrawing from the Coalition Cabinet the representatives of the Unionist party. I wonder if my right hon. Friend desires that! The country does not desire it. The country takes a more generous account than is taken in many quarters of this House of the labours and the troubles of His Majesty's Government. We have had references to other topics. Really there is a cabal every afternoon and a crisis every second day. It is time an end were made of them. With regard to the Members of this House to whom the £400 is material, and with regard to the Cabinet to whom union is material, this Amendment is of vital consequence and is not to be introduced with glozing words and recommended as a trivial matter of financial economy. It goes deeper than that. My right hon. Friend here (Sir G. Reid), who comes, perhaps, with a fresh mind to some of these old controversies which are dwarfed by the solemnities of the present time, spoke words yesterday which I ask leave to read to the House. He was making an irregular review of the political situation, and he did it in the spirit which we should expect. He said: I oppose this Amendment, and if there is any vote which can be given to make it clear that the House of Commons desires to have done with tactics and practices of this kind His Majesty's Government may command mine.
I desire to say a few words as an old Member who has sat for nearly twenty years under the old arrangement and has sat also under the new. I submit that the bringing forward of this Amendment is a distinct breach of the party truce. It is a party man's proposal. It is taking advantage of a national emergency in order to raise an old party controversial issue. The party truce does not refer only to legislation, as the right hon. Baronet would have us believe. Surely the party truce may be broken by the action of individual Members, and great efforts have been made in that direction. When the right hon. Baronet talks about economy as the reason for bringing forward this Amendment, it seems to me to be pure cant and humbug. The amount is so comparatively small. When you look at the other large amounts which have been squandered in all directions and see that he makes no special effort to deal with them, but fixes upon this one particular item, it is an indication, in my judgment, that it is a purely partisan matter. This is an old political controversy. It goes down to the very root of the differences between the two great parties.
I should like to refer to the historical aspect of the question. The intention for centuries was to keep this House a close preserve for certain interests—at first for the landed interest, and afterwards for the well to do. In 1710, in the reign of Queen Anne, under the pretence that it was for the better preserving of the constitution and the freedom of Parliament, it was enacted that knights of the shire must possess a clear £500 a year derived from landed property, houses and buildings. That indicated that they were the only class of the community who were to sit in this House for county constituencies. Members for other constituencies had to possess a clear £300 a year derived from similar property. Only persons owning land and houses could sit in this House, with two remarkable exceptions — the eldest sons of peers and Members for the Universities. When that was altered in 1838, provision was made that Members for the counties must possess £600 a year, derived from property of any kind or investments, the idea still being to protect the interests of the wealthy. Members for the boroughs had still to possess £300 a year. We all know how the franchise was kept high. Not only were the Members themselves to be well-to-do people, but they were to be elected by people not of the poorest type. All these arrangements had one purpose in view—to keep poorer men out of this House. It has often been suggested that proposed changes would lower the standard of Parliament. The days of the greatest corruption of Parliament were when the conditions were such that only wealthy men could sit here. It was the old Parliaments that had corrupt elections throughout the country. The issues raised by these questions are the same. There is the old question to-day of having a property vote. There is the old question to-day of the domination over this House of another House elsewhere. What has been the whole modern tendency of legislation in this matter? It has been to give the people a freer choice of representatives. We have enacted a wider franchise, so that the masses of the people should have the vote. We have made elections cheaper by restricting the amount that can be spent, in order that it should be easier for people of less means to get into this House. The wider and freer choice of representatives depends largely upon the cost of election and the cost of service. Many of the party with which the right hon. Baronet is connected have opposed every step to reduce the qualification of Members, to reduce the franchise, and to make it easier for poorer people to get into this House. Expense is really a money test. In my judgment a modest payment is reasonable and necessary if the choice of representatives to this House is to be free.
5.0 P.M.
What was the actual position before this arrangement was made? Really, the reason given by the right hon. Baronet in quoting a passage from the Minister of Munitions as to the real grounds for introducing this change was a parody. That was not the reason. Into what position had we got in this House? We had something like from 100 to 120 Members who were paid—paid by outside persons—to sit in this House. When Members were paid by outside bodies they could not always vote according to their own convictions or according to the interests of their consituencies. They had to vote as their paymasters instructed them. It might be in the interests of their constituencies or it might not. Those who paid the piper always called the tune. They had to vote to order. They were under the control of outside bodies, and I say that was undermining the independence of Parliament. To prevent that, to render that impossible, it was essential that we should do something to get rid of that outside domination. It was essential that working men should be paid. You could not get that class here unless they were paid. It is desirable to have them here, and the difficulty arose because the only means of getting them here was for outside bodies to provide the funds. When it had come to that, that Members sitting here were paid, it was time for them to be paid by Parliament.
What is the other system? It is the system of party funds. We know what that means. Party funds were used to pay the election expenses of a Member, and often Members were given other assistance. Whence came these party funds? How were they got? It is not one of the most creditable phases of this House. The men from whom they were got looked for their names in the Honours List. On the other hand, we had men who were paid. Neither of these sections of Members of this House were free and independent—neither the one supported and paid and who owed his election expenses to the party, nor the other man who really provided the money and looked for his reward. Both of them were tied more or less. It is the same on both sides of the House — tied to the party Government of the day. It is only by providing a modest and reasonable payment of Members that you can secure that independence which is absolutely essential to the well-being of this House. Every cost and expense accentuates those other difficulties. It is desirable, I say, and it is essential, if we are to maintain the success of our democratic Government, that we should have working-men Members of this House wherever the constituencies desire to return them. It should be made free and easy for them to get here if the constituencies decide to have them. But if they are to come here it is perfectly obvious that they must be paid by somebody, and it is desirable, when we have got to that stage, that they should have a salary here by right so as to keep them independent of any outside control. It may be said that the constituency should pay. That is a nice suggestion! It would then be possible for another Member to go down to a constituency and say, "You send me, I shall not take any salary." A nice thing! It is the old Tory principle over again, that the man of means is to have the better position. Again, you are only to give to those who require it. I need add nothing to what the right hon. and learned Gentleman has said on that point. It is a most undesirable thing for hon. Members to take their salaries and then to give them to their constituencies. It ought to unseat them. It is bribery and corruption of the barest kind—when it is made known. It is shameful; they ought to be unseated! Members can refrain from cashing their warrants, but that would not answer the purpose of the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London. He does not want them to have it at all. Therefore, I oppose this Amendment of the right hon. Baronet, because I believe the principle of payment of Members is a sound and good one. Under our present conditions I believe it is essential for the independence of Parliament. Lastly, I oppose the Amendment because it is a breach of the Parliamentary truce to introduce this old and deep-seated cause of political controversy at this time, when, above all other things, we ought to be united in upholding our Government in carrying on the War.
I have no intention of intervening in this Debate, nor do I intend to enter into the historical grounds on which some Members support and some oppose the principle of payment of Members The grounds have been thoroughly covered. Nor do I intend to break the party truce. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Spen Valley uttered the shibboleth that the non-payment of Members is the old Tory dodge. I leave the House to judge of that utterance. I listened to the powerful and forensic speech made by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Exeter, in which he explained that he thought that at the present juncture every one of us ought to try to play the game. So far as I am concerned, I believe that both myself and my colleagues are trying to play the game. But I do not think that my right hon. and learned Friend was playing the game when he insinuated, and used all his powers of rhetoric to prove to the House, that my right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London is the owner of a large fortune, and would, therefore, be perfectly willing to give his four hundred a year, whereas men with little were not able to do so, and that that was practically one of the reasons that made him so anxious to give up his four hundred a year. I think my hon. and learned Friend ought to have known the right hon. Baronet better, and have known his independence, even to allow such a thing as that to go before the House. Honestly, I have always been in favour of the non-payment of Members. I have always voted against it, and, if need be, I shall follow my right hon. Friend and colleague into the Lobby. I shall be glad to be with him. But there is another point on which I should like to correct my right hon. and learned Friend—if such a humble individual as myself can correct the right hon. and learned Gentleman—and that is that the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London was in any way the outcome of an intrigue, or cabal, or feeling against our leaders who now form part of the Coalition Government. There is not a word of truth in such a statement. The Motion was brought forward by the right hon. Baronet entirely on his own initiative, and it will be followed up by those who believe with him in the arguments that he adduced. Powerful as may have been the speech of my right hon. and learned Friend, it did not convince me in the least, though it may have convinced a jury.
I have no hope of being more successful than my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Exeter in convincing the right hon. Gentleman, who has already made up his mind. But I must say I listened with surprise, and not with pleasure, to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman behind me (Sir T. Whittaker). In my opinion, if anything could explain and justify the Motion of the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London, it is the spirit which that speech betrayed. In spite of what my right hon. Friend who has just sat down has said about the speech of my right hon. and learned Friend opposite (Mr. Duke), I am bound to say that he has expressed so entirely the views which actuate me in connection with this matter that there is really very little that I can add to what he has said. This is one of the kind of questions, of which there have been two or three since this Government was formed, which I myself dislike. I dislike them because they raise the old party controversies, or the shadow of party controversies, and because they seem to me to be out of place at a time like the present. I do not mean to say that this question is not a question of principle, which goes to the very root, perhaps, of our Parliamentary institutions, because the composition of the House of Commons is one of the essential factors of all our Parliamentary institutions. I admit that. At another time it will be a suitable subject for every kind of party fight, and even for the overthrow of Governments, if it were possible to overthrow them on that ground.
At a time like this, however, when the whole future of our country, when perhaps our national existence, is at stake, it seems to me utterly unthinkable that there should be what is called a crisis, or that the fate of the Government should depend upon such a subject as this. I do not believe it is thinkable; if it were, every one of us in this House would have reason to be ashamed. I do not impute any motives to the right hon. Baronet. I have known him long. I know he takes his own way. I do not always think it is the right one. He is taking it here. But I regret that the subject has been raised. Since, however, it has been raised it has to be dealt with. It is difficult to deal with it. Almost every one of our party, I think, has spoken and voted against the payment of Members. I, for one, have spoken still more strongly about the way in which the payment of Members was introduced. I believe that almost every one of my hon. Friends opposite is pledged to vote against the payment of Members. Yet this issue is raised in what seems—but in reality is not—a direct issue on the merits of that question. They are, therefore, in a very difficult position. The constituencies do not understand what may influence us, and Members who have given these pledges are faced by this difficulty: they will be told that on a straight issue they voted against the pledges which they gave. It is a very difficult position. I am only going to say this: I shall make no personal appeal of any kind to hon. Members as to the course which they ought to pursue. I shall simply tell them the course which we Unionist Members of the Cabinet have thought it our duty to pursue in the circumstances which have arisen. It is all very well for my right hon. Friend to say that the Chancellor of the Exchequer raised this issue by the Motion which is now before the House, and by contrasting the payment of men who are fighting in the trenches and those who are not fighting in the trenches. That is an entirely different issue to what we are now discussing. I may remind the House, in case they did not notice it, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer made it perfectly plain that on that issue the House, as a House, was going to decide. I think that is right, and for this reason: that there can be no question of our voting for ourselves in this matter, because the great majority who will vote will not be affected by this issue, but will give their votes on what they think the merits of the question as regards those who are actually serving in His Majesty's Forces. That is an entirely different thing.
There is no use denying it that this question of the payment of Members has been—and if we are ever in the old conditions will probably be again—as much a party issue as the Welsh Church Bill or Home Rule itself. It must, however, be quite obvious to every Member that if we Unionists who are members of this Government demand the right to express our views on a subject such as this on its merits we abandon practically not only the continuation of this Government but we abandon altogether any hope of running this War on any but purely party lines. Well, Sir, I am not prepared to do that, and I think what proves that I am not exaggerating is this: For ten months after the War broke out we were in Opposition. The question could have been raised then. There were many opportunities of raising it. It was not raised. Hon. Friends of mine came to me more than once and suggested that we should raise it at that time. I said to them, "Of course, I cannot object to what you do; I have no right to, and do not intend to do it; but I cannot be a party to it, because, in my opinion, it would be an end to attempting to run on non-party lines." Every one of my hon. Friends not only did not press the Motion, but recognised the reasonableness of the view which was then taken; and if my right hon. Friend feels so strongly about it, I wonder why, during those ten months, when we were in Opposition, he did not himself take the opportunity of bringing the subject forward and having it fought out then.
I had not a chance. Every time since 1911 the Motion in Supply has been guillotined. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I beg pardon. I have looked it up. It was put under the guillotine at that time.
My right hon. Friend knows more about the method of doing these things when he desires them than any other Member of the House, and, unless I am greatly mistaken, he was not even one of the hon. Members who came to me suggesting it should be raised by us as a party.
made an observation which was inaudible in the Reporters' Gallery.
What is the moral that we can draw from the action of my right hon. Friend? There is only one explanation. It is a perfectly reasonable one. and I do not think he would deny it. The explanation is, that he thought the last Government, though he did not love it, was better than the present Government, and he was not prepared to embarrass the last Government, but he is perfectly ready to embarrass this Government. My right hon. Friend may be perfectly right. I do not think he is. He may be perfectly right, but I would like to repeat again now what I have said in the House of Commons before. I am a member of this Government, and I am interested in it, but I have had a longer connection with the Unionist party, and I am more interested in it, and I say this: If that is the object of my right hon. Friend or any of those who are supporting him, let us do it openly; let us come openly and say, "We wish a change of this Government," and let it be on an issue big enough to make the party not ashamed of the course they are taking. My right hon. Friend suggested that there is a difference now, because this is a question of economy, and that that makes it different from an ordinary party issue. I ask the House to consider what the proposal is. It is not a question of diminishing the salary. It is a question of at once taking away the full salary of every Member of the House. My right hon. Friend came to me the other day in connection with another subject, and a subject which, whatever our views, and whether they are right or wrong, is big enough to justify anyone who feels strongly to take any action he thinks right about it. He came to me on that subject with a Resolution in favour of equality of sacrifice. That is an attractive phrase. I am not much in love with phrases myself as a rule, but that is the ideal at which we ought to aim. Where is the equality of sacrifice coming in here? To my right hon. Friend, whose heart, as we all know, always bleeds for the sufferings of the deserving rich, and to many others, the £400 a year means absolutely nothing. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or whoever does the work, forgot to send it to him, and if his private secretary did not remind him of it, at the end of the year he would never know he had never received it.
But think of the position of other Members of this House. During all my political life the Labour Members have opposed everything I have tried to do, and when the War is over it is possible they will do the same again. [HON MEMBERS: "No!"] At all events, I can say this, that I am too old to hope to make new friends in political life. I say they have not helped us politically, but I say that, since this War broke out, they have shown a spirit of which every Member in this House has reason to be proud. They have helped us—many of them—most of them—at great sacrifice in doing everything they can to help on this War. To them the £400 a year is everything. They have given up the old arrangements by which they were paid by their trade unions. Other people probably are receiving the money which they used to receive, and to suggest that, in the middle of the Session, you should suddenly put those Members in the position of having nothing to live upon is an intolerable hardship of which I do not believe any Member of this House would approve. It is a different thing from doing it as a result of an election. People then know what they have to expect, and have not made their arrangements, and, so far as I can judge, the very fact of the existence of the War is itself, in my mind, a reason for not making a sudden change in the way that is suggested by the Amendment of my right hon. Friend. I do not think I have anything more to say except, perhaps, this, that in my belief hon. Members should realise that what they are voting for is not the merits or demerits of payment of Members, but simply whether or not it is wise and right to raise this question at the present time.
For my own part, I greatly regret that any Motion at all has been put down. I think, in the middle of a great War, with our officers from this House sacrificing their positions at home and fighting in the trenches for their country, it is a mean Motion, and not really worth while discussing in this House at all, and particularly so because there are so many vital things which really it is time we should tackle in this House, and put by the small things altogether. So far as I am concerned, I am opposed to the Amendment for reasons I can state in a very few sentences, and the reasons, I think, are comprised in the statement of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies. But before I state those one or two reasons, may I say that I do not think it serves any useful purpose, either for the unity of the House, which is essential, or for the unity of parties, for my right hon. Friend to make the bitter speech he did in abuse of his own colleagues in this House. I myself have not the slightest idea in anything I do of introducing any bitterness at all, and all I care about is that the War should be got on with as fast as we can, and without diverting ourselves from subjects which are absolutely essential for the carrying on of the War. I oppose this Amendment because I think it is brought in at the most inopportune time that could be imagined. I think in the middle of a war to ask those Members who have come to the House and given their time to the House to sacrifice salaries which they used to draw from another source, is really bringing forward a proposition to which it is very, very difficult to assent.
As regards the Labour Members, I do not think they have ever had anything in common with me, but I have always found that they have respected my views, and I will say, as far as I am personally concerned, I have formed a very different view—I honestly and openly say so—of the Labour party since the War began than ever I had before. Now what would be the result of our passing this? There may be Members here who would have to leave the House. Well, I think that would be a great misfortune. It may be that some would have to go back to other sources from which they used to get the money. I do not think it is possible to be raising such questions as that during the continuance of the War. Therefore, without any question of whether you are raising party controversies or whether you are not, but putting it simply and wholly upon the inexpedient time at which this Amendment has been put before the House, I, for my part, cannot support my right hon. Friend, with whom I so often act, and I shall certainly vote against the Amendment.
I should not have intervened in this Debate but for one or two references which have been made to the party to which I belong. I did not intend, nor did any of my hon. Friends, to take any part in this Debate. We felt that we could leave it to the good sense of the House to deal with a question of this character, and the only thing I want to say now with regard to this matter is that we do not want, and we never have wanted, this question settled by any differentiation between the Labour Members and the other Members of this House. It must, however, be remembered that when we came here first as a party certain arrangements were in operation which enabled us to represent not only our constituencies, but the great mass of labour opinion with which we were intimately connected, and now those arrangements have all ceased since this new arrangement came into operation. I feel that I must say that I cannot help but thank the right hon. Gentleman who last sat down (Sir E. Carson), the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Exeter (Mr. Duke), and the Secretary of State for the Colonies for what they have said in regard to the action of the Labour representatives in the House during the War. But we have not done what we have done in regard to this War from any consideration of salaries. We do not ask you to continue the payment of those salaries because of anything we may have done. All we ask, and all we have asked since we came into this House, is that we should have fair play and be treated on the same basis as other hon. Members, and then we will do our part and our share on behalf of the country which we love and honour and which we cherish in common with every other hon. Member of this House.
I do not mean to put forward any arguments for or against the payment of Members, but I want to make an appeal to those sitting on the opposite benches who are pledged to vote against the paying of Members. Many of them have talked to me on this subject at the beginning of this War, and there were two fears in their mind—one was that the people of the country, the labouring classes, would not be ready to fight. We owe it to the Labour Members who have fought throughout the country and have done what neither party could have done in telling their fellow workmen the necessities of the country, and the labouring classes have in consequence stood like a stone wall behind the Government in order to carry this War to a successful conclusion. There are other hon. Members in this House who have made great sacrifices. At the beginning of this War Germany calculated upon Ireland rising in rebellion against us, and many hon. Members opposite feared that Ireland would not be loyal. We all know that those hon. Members who are sitting on the benches below the Gangway opposite have done a greater service to this country than either the Conservative or the Liberal party were able to do. They have told Ireland the facts of the case, and Ireland is behind the Empire and with the rest of us to-day, greatly owing to the efforts of the Irish Members of this House. I can agree with the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London in one thing, and it is that as a general rule the Members of this House have been less useful during the War than they were before the War. Their work has become lighter and their functions less important; but there are two sections of this House, the Labour party and the Irish Members, who have done invaluable work, and what does this Resolution propose to do? It does not hit everybody equally, but the two sets of people it hits hardest are the Labour Members and the Irish Members, so many of whom cannot afford to be here without the salaries they receive. If hon. Members opposite vote for this Resolution at this moment it will be a piece of base ingratitude to the Members of this House who have served their country best.
I wish to say a few words in opposition to this Amendment, and I do so as one who greatly dislikes payment of Members. I have always voted against it, and probably shall continue to do so, but I have no hesitation whatever in voting against this Amendment, because it is not a direct issue, and if it were I should still say at this time that the War puts an entirely different complexion upon these matters, and places before us a duty which is above every other duty. Therefore, whatever pledges may have been given, whatever our private opinions may be, or even our party opinions on this or that particular subject, the necessity of a united House of Commons fighting through this War overrides them all, and the party truce to which reference has been made, and to which very sorry lip service has been paid, absolves one from all consistency as to our views before the War and after the War, and we are entirely free to regard every Motion in the light of the War, and the War only. It is quite certain that the success of this proposal would mean the abandonment of the Coalition Government. The country has made up its mind that the War cannot be carried on by party Government, and we have therefore got a Coalition Government, and the party truce means the abolition of party lines, and in my view throws upon us all the supreme duty of supporting His Majesty's Government in conducting the War, and putting aside every other consideration in order to support and vote with the Government upon all possible occasions.
An argument has been used at this particular moment which seems to me to be a very false one, and it is a symptom which I regret is growing very largely in the country. It is being said that we ought in this matter to give a lead or set an example. In the first place, I do not believe in any one setting an example at the cost of other people's pockets. I dislike to hear people say that they are waiting for a lead to do this or that. Where is our own self-respect and our own individual standard, if we cannot do what we think to be right in the way of economy without waiting for a lead? It may be in regard to giving up wine, or smoking, but let us do all these things on our own responsibility, and not wait for somebody else to do it. When a man says, "I will do so and so if the Prime Minister, or somebody else, gives us a lead," that is a weak position for anybody to take up. I do not like a man to make the excuse that he will do this thing or that if somebody else will do it, because that is generally the excuse for not doing it himself. All I can say is that if the country is asking for a lead on this matter the country ought to be thoroughly well ashamed of itself, and it ought to set us the example itself. I always say to the man who asks me for a lead, "Are you not man enought to do it yourself instead of waiting for somebody else to do it." We can only give a lead by doing a thing individually, and we cannot do it by asking hon. Members to say that they will give up their salaries, because that would be invidious in relation to those who cannot afford to do it. We can all do it privately, and then we can do it with the satisfaction to our own consciences that we have done what is right; and when we do individually what we think is right we can be quite certain that somebody will know it, and that our example will not be without effect upon the general feeling of the country at large. That is how I feel with regard to the argument that the country is waiting for a lead, and for these reasons I shall have the greatest possible pleasure in voting for the Government on this occasion, although my action may seem to contradict certain pledges and votes which I have given in the past.
I rise to say only a very few words. Nobody in this House feels stronger than I do with reference to this matter, and I have consistently voted against the payment of Members. I have kept myself free from receiving any benefit or allowing my Constituency to receive any benefit from my salary, and ever since the War commenced I have returned my salary to the Exchequer. I confess that the Debate to-day has done a disservice to the cause which I have very strongly at heart. I think this Debate has weakened very much our cause, and on that ground I make an earnest appeal to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London to withdraw his Amendment, and abstain from pressing for a Division. I say this because I believe we were right in our contention, and that we should be right in raising this question at the proper time. I think the manner in which these salaries were granted and the terms on which they were granted were unsuitable, and they should be revised. I adopt this attitude because I wish to keep our case to be argued when we return to the ordinary condition of things, and that is why I make this earnest appeal to my right hon. Friend to relieve us from the difficulty in which this proposal is putting many of us, and I hope we shall refrain from dividing the House on this occasion. For these reasons I ask my right hon. Friend to withdraw his Amendment. I feel sure that that is the best thing to do, and I think that will be in accordance with the general opinion of the House, after the speeches we have heard.
Most of the arguments which can be used on this subject have already been put forward. I am Opposed not only to the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London, but I am opposed to the Motion as well. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Dublin University (Sir E. Carson) that really it is very unfortunate that this Motion has been brought forward at all. We are told that the actual amount which can be saved by depriving certain Members of the House who are on military service of their salaries is some £40,000 a year, and, as some months ago I was particularly asked by one or two of them, not members of my own party, to mention this matter in the House if it ever came up, I determined, at any rate, to say something upon the question. People talk sometimes as if it was quite easy to rearrange financial arrangements at a moment's notice. I know two or three Members of the House whose constituencies even now make a serious call upon them, and they have gone away at great financial sacrifice, absolutely relying upon the continuation of this payment. If it is stopped it means, not that they will go without the money, because they have never spent it upon themselves, but that they will be put in the position of having to refuse calls from their constituencies which have always been satisfied out of these payments. It does seem to me, when you are not dealing with salaries for the whole of Members' time, very invidious to single out these people and put them in an unfortunate position. I wish the Government could see their way to withdraw this Motion, just as I wish the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London could see his way to withdraw his Amendment.
I do not wish to say anything which will offend the susceptibilities of my opponents, and I regret certain remarks which were made the other day by my right hon. Friend sitting behind me (Sir T. Whittaker), but to some of us, and to me personally, this is a matter of vital principle. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Exeter (Mr. Duke) said that perhaps none of us knew what our views on this question would be after the War. I know what my views will be. I will never be a party to anything, whether in the House of Commons or in the Army, or in the sphere of diplomacy, which puts up this money bar and prevents us from getting the best men. When I look round and see what has happened lately I am not so satisfied with the results of our diplomacy as to support a policy of calling for men with private means over and above that which we give them. It is exactly the same principle that you are fighting for here. It was a rotten system in the Army, I believe we have suffered from it deplorably in diplomacy, and I will never give a vote in favour of that rotten principle in any branch of our public life. I am not standing here to-day to support a principle which was carried when I was a Member of the House. I, like many others, actually came to the House when payment of Members was an established thing, and when we were entitled to rely upon it. Hundreds of Members have come in at by-elections after it has become an accomplished fact.
This question of the payment of Members stands in exactly the same category as all these other matters. It really is a vital principle. It is no small matter; it is a very great matter indeed. I am bound to say that we have received, as we have received again and again, the most generous treatment from members of the Conservative party in dealing with our views upon this question. There has been all through the War an attempt in the Press and on the part of a number of people outside the House to beat up public opinion on this question. It is very easy to beat up public opinion upon a question of paying other people, and I think our party ought to be exceedingly grateful for the loyal way in which we have been supported in this matter by our opponents. I would remind the House that all our Colonial Governments are paid, and I think all the Governments of our Allies are paid. I have been spending the last three months in Petrograd, and when I was there I asked whether anyone had proposed to abolish the payment of members of the Duma. I was told that a few members had given up their salaries. I asked, "Has anybody proposed to abolish them?" and the reply was, "They could not do so very well. The Government could not do so, because they are paid members; the poorer members would not because obviously they could not afford to do so; and with regard to the richer members there would be a little delicacy about their doing so." I wish that same delicacy had applied here. This is a deplorable proposal, and I wish at the eleventh hour the Government would say, "We will take the generous view and drop the whole thing." Let us have no Division and let us get on with our business.
Like the hon. and learned Gentleman who has just spoken, I was about to make the same suggestion. It would be absolutely impossible to find any Member of this House who could say that he was enthusiastically in favour of the Motion tabled by the Government to-day. It is practically trying to effect an economy of £40,000 a year by refusing one of £240,000. I have a worse thing to say about this Motion than that. It is in conflict with the principle of the payment of Members, because it never was a sincere defence of the payment of Members—by the by, I was always opposed to it—to say that it was a payment for services rendered. It really never was anything of the kind. It was really an indemnity against expenses, both in the Middle Ages and now. This Motion, based upon the theory that officers who are Members of this House are gaining something to which they are not entitled by retaining their remuneration as Members of this House is based entirely upon a false conception of their position, for it has to be said that this War has not produced a net reduction in the expenses of Members, whether serving at the front or not. In some directions it has increased the expenses of Members, even if in other directions it has diminished them. Therefore, to say that hon. Members of this House who are serving at the front are making something by retaining their remuneration as Members of this House is to say that which I believe is totally contradicted by the fact. The Amendment of the right hon. Baronet presents a confused and embarrassing issue to the House. I should like to get rid of his Amendment, because I very much dislike voting against it, but I should be much more grateful if the Government, providing they cannot get leave to withdraw their Motion, could resort to some of those convenient devices by which Motions can be got rid of, and could get rid of this, I will not say shabby but, most unheroic Motion.
I regret that I cannot quite agree with my right hon. Friend who has just spoken. I do not think that the Government Motion is so shabby as he makes out. I say quite frankly that I am one of those responsible for the recommendation of the Retrenchment Committee. At the time we were considering that subject several Members of this House who were in khaki and were on military service came and represented to me the impropriety of their receiving both military and civil pay. All I did at that time was to promise to give the matter careful consideration. I am quite certain that a number of Members of this House did feel that it was not a proper state of things that both salaries should be received, and after full and careful consideration of all the different views of the parties represented on the Committee we thought it proper to make this recommendation. I hope, therefore, the Government will adhere to their Motion, and carry out what is not a large economy, but what, at any rate, is an economy in the right direction. I confess I regret that the Amendment of my right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) was ever put forward at this time. I feel as strongly as anyone can my former views against the payment of Members. I have not altered my opinions in that respect one jot or one tittle since I expressed them in 1911, and if my right hon. Friend asks me why I am not supporting him my reply is that he seems to forget that at the present moment we are face to face with a vast national danger. We are sitting under a Coalition Government and are anxious to sink party differences. In view of those considerations, I cannot but feel that my right hon. Friend is ill-advised in bringing forward this Motion at this time. If the Government is to be overhauled, and I quite admit that sometimes it wants Keeping up to the mark during the present War, it should be overhauled on something much more important than this question. This question of the payment of Members is really at this time a Lilliputian question, and under the circumstances I would strongly urge my right hon. Friend to consider if he cannot withdraw it.
Before I sit down I should like to mention, if I am in order in doing so, an Amendment lower down on the Paper which stands in my name. It is that the salaries of all Members of this House should be reduced to £300 a year. I think it has been felt that we ought to set some example in the way of economy to the country at large. The country has, perhaps, very naturally criticised us for declining to give up any portion of our salaries when we are preaching economy all round, and if we could agree upon an arrangement of this kind, if all parties in the House were prepared to endorse it, there would obviously be no breach of the party truce. I venture to suggest, therefore, that would be a reasonable proposal as a compromise between the two extremes of opinion. We are now being taxed 5s. in the £, or 25 per cent. My proposal is to give up exactly 25 per cent. of our salaries. His Majesty has only lately made a magnificent gift of £100,000 to the nation. May we not take the privilege of doing something similar in our own way so far as we can? Parliament ought surely to be the guide of the nation in this matter of economy, not its camp follower following behind it, and I cannot but believe that our duty is to be in the forefront of self-sacrifice and to be a pattern for retrenchment and economy.
6.0 P.M.
I agree with much that has been said by my hon. Friend who has just sat down, and I am glad that he has referred to his own Amendment, because it gives an opportunity for those of us whose view is relevant to those Amendments as well as to that of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) to express our view in a very few sentences. I am not going back on those fundamental distinctions of political view which make this question one of great controversy, and which make it, as most of us think, most inopportune to raise to-day. I venture to say that whatever be the case for the payment of Members in peace time, the case for the payment is stronger now under existing conditions. If the number of Members of this House to whom the receipt of a Parliamentary salary is a necessary condition of their remaining here could be accurately taken, it would be found to be a far larger number to-day in a time of war than it was in time of peace. However much some individuals or some classes in the community may have increased their resources during the war period, it is quite certain the great bulk of persons have less incomes to-day, more expenses, and greater responsibilities, and therefore it seems to me that the Amendment suggested by the hon. Member who last spoke is open to the same criticism as the Amendment now before the House. It certainly would be opposed by those who take the view I am venturing to express, that the needs of the Members themselves and the requirements of those who are anxious to do their duty as Members of Parliament in time of war point in an exactly opposite direction. It is idle to measure the duties of Members of Parliament in time of war by the fact that the House itself may sit only three or four days a week, and that there are no constant chronic Committees upstairs. Everybody must know that the duties put upon us by the outbreak of war are greater, more responsible, and more difficult to discharge than were the duties which fell upon us in time of peace.
I remember the first Session I had the honour of a seat in this House when Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman, who was then leading the House, pointed out the extreme importance of the hour which is given to questions. That importance is greater in war time than in peace time. Members of this House have opportunities which do not attach to other classes of His Majesty's subjects of questioning the Government on matters of importance, and although it is perfectly well known that all men are treated with the greatest courtesy by Government Departments, the fact that a Member of this House has the power of bringing matters to public attention and at the same time of assisting the Government in matters where local knowledge may be germane and important—all these things tend to add to the work of hon. Members. Again, the work done in the country by many Members of this House has been done to a large extent because they are Members of Parliament, and we cannot get away from the influence that attaches to Members of the House and which enables them to be of such great assistance in various ways. Since this House has put away as an unclean thing the spirit of party in order to help the country in a time of great stress it is all the more important that Members of Parliament whose private resources or business resources are really limited by the War should not have their opportunities of doing good work diminished. I trust we shall all be ready to answer to our constituents whether we have been doing our duty as M.P.'s, and when the time comes a Member may fairly be asked how far he has done it and may be able to say he has only been able to do it because of his, salary as a Member of Parliament. No doubt that is a matter on which every Member will be willing to give a reply if it is put to him at that proper time. Under these circumstances I respectfully submit to the House that the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Junior Member for the City of London is ill-starred and ill-conceived. However much it may be designed with a view to temporary economy, it is really hindering the public service which is required to be done by Members of this House at the present time.
May I say also how much I hope that the Government may see their way to reconsider their own proposal? The extent of economy it would effect is little, but the division which it would set up between Members of this House who are serving with the Forces and others is a division which no Member of this House desires to emphasise. We who are unable to serve with the Forces envy those who can, and we shrink from anything which would appear to undervalue their services or make us or anyone think that they are less Members of Parliament. Therefore I hope the Government may see their way to reconsider their decision. It has been pointed out by the hon. and learned Member for Exeter (Mr. Duke) and others that where people are in a position to give up their Parliamentary salary they ought to do it. Now is the opportunity, and of course in the case of those who are serving with His Majesty's Forces, their resources come nearer to allowing them to do it. But, surely, it can be left to their sense of right and chivalry, and it should be left to every Member of the House to exercise his own judgment. Therefore, while I oppose on that and on other grounds the Amendment of my right hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury) I desire earnestly to ask the Government to reconsider their proposal, though it may be capable of that clear and strong defence which the Chancellor of the Exchequer may give it, and to consider whether, on the whole, it is not better to leave things as they are, leaving it to the time of peace to settle whether those principles which most of us believe in may not then be made permanent in the interests of good government.
I rise to support the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), which, I believe, has a very much larger measure of support on this side than would appear to be the case from the speeches which have been delivered. I have listened to nearly every speech on the other side, and as far as I can summarise the arguments against my right hon. Friend's Motion, they appear to be, first of all, that this is not the time to bring it forward. To that I reply this is not the time to put on the Government Whip when a Motion is under consideration which proposes to do something tending towards economy. My strongest reason, indeed, any sole reason for supporting this Motion is the ground of economy. I would point out that when we go to our constituents preaching economy our hands would be vastly strengthened if this Motion were carried, and if we first of all cleared the decks by depriving ourselves of our salaries. The King has just given £100,000 to the nation, and I would suggest that Ministers should follow his example and give £1,000 out of their salaries, while private Members, nearly all of whom entered this House at the time when salaries were not paid, could agree that the salaries which they voted to themselves under different conditions should be suspended, at any rate, until the end of the War.
The other main argument brought forward is that it would be hard on Labour Members. I did not gather from the speech of the Leader of the Labour party that he really supported that view. But that is met by a Motion which stands on the Paper, providing that any Member can send a paper to Mr. Speaker stating that he is unable to carry on without the salary and in such case he would be allowed to receive it. I see nothing invidious in such a proposal. There is no shame in poverty, and therefore it constitutes a substantial and complete answer to that argument. It is not as though the system of paying salaries was a matter of long standing. It has not been in existence a large number of years, and I believe the number of Members who would not be able to carry on without the salary will be found to be very few—an almost negligible number. I propose to vote for the original Motion of the Prime Minister, which I suppose is intended to make a beginning in economy, and probably I had some sort of instinct that it was going to be proposed because I gave up my own salary last January. I think that everybody in this House who is enjoying any public emolument should be made to give up his salary. I sincerely hope the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London will press his Motion to a Division, and I believe his position has not been largely strengthened by the support it unexpectedly received from the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Exeter. We think this is not a case where we can be accused of disloyalty to our leaders. We hold that Government Whips ought not to be put on in this matter.
I disagree with the speech to which we have just listened. I decline to give way to anyone in my desire for economy, but I think before you discuss economy and the method in which you are going to economise you should consider whether your economy is going to inflict injustice on others. There is not in my mind a shadow of a question that this is not the right time to bring forward a Motion of this kind. I do not think I need discuss the subject on its intrinsic merits because, in my opinion, the difference between, first of all, instituting the payment of Members, and secondly, violently stopping that payment in the middle of Parliament are two different things. I want the House to consider a point of view which appeals to me very strongly. I know there are a large number of new Members who have come into this House since payment of Members was established.
We may be perfectly frank and open among ourselves. We know quite well that before any man becomes a selected candidate for a constituency he has to make certain arrangements with the constituency. We know perfectly well he has to enter into certain financial arrangements and engagements and that on those financial arrangements other engagements are made, upon which other men are entirely dependent. If you are now going violently in the middle of a Parliament to stop the salaries which are given to Members, many of them may find themselves in a very awkward position. They may find they have entered into financial arrangements which they are utterly unable to carry out. We have no right to place them in such a position, and my own view is that a great many hardships will be inflicted upon people who are dependent on those arrangements. One case alone I may mention. Members of this House are greatly indebted to their agents who unceasingly work for them, and who are absolutely dependent on them. Therefore I do beg the House, before it passes the Amendment of my right hon. Friend, to consider how far the hurt will reach. After all, if we only hurt ourselves, I suppose we are entitled to do it. But let us be careful that in doing it we do not carry it too far. I believe myself that payment of Members was a thing we ought to have avoided. But having once agreed to it, having allowed Members of the House to enter into arrangements which they may be prevented carrying out if it is stopped, we ought to be very careful before we take such a step. The Labour Members have done very good work and have helped us greatly in the labours we have been carrying out throughout this national crisis, and I think we should do them a great injustice and deprive them of something which may be a necessity if we adopt this Motion. For these reasons I am opposed to the Amendment of the right hon. Baronet. I would also add one word to the pleading of other hon. Members for those hon. and gallant Members who are shedding their blood for us at the front at the present time. I know it is considered that if hon. and gallant Members receive double pay they are putting something in their pockets. I have a case in my mind of a great personal Friend of mine who is serving his country and is still a Member of this House, and I know perfectly well that if he had permission to take only one of these salaries he would be considerably out of pocket and could not afford it. That is one object lesson which is within my own knowledge; therefore I join my voice in asking the Government to be good enough to revise this very paltry thing of theirs, which simply means some £40,000, when we are speaking and thinking in millions. I shall oppose the Amendment of the right hon. Baronet and also the proposal of the Government.
I do not wish to give a silent vote on this question if it is to be carried to a Division. I only rise to explain my own position, which, I believe, is the position of a great many Members of this House—I mean those who have sent word to the authorities of the House that they do not wish any further cheque to be sent to them during the continuance of the War. When I said that, I added this, which is important: my own views, wish to vote for the Amendment of the right hon. Baronet, but I cannot do it for the reason that if the salaries are all taken away it takes away the individual discretion of Members as to what it is their duty to do, especially as it has been pointed out that it raises the difficulty of those hon. Members who are not able to keep up the position of Members of Parliament without receiving some salary from the State. There is one further reason why I would urge the right hon. Baronet to withdraw the Amendment. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Ashford Division (Mr. Laurence Hardy) made a similar appeal, and I wish to repeat it. It was supported by an hon. Member opposite. It was an appeal to the Government to withdraw their Resolution also. It would be an excellent plan for the Government to withdraw their Resolution, a step to which I am quite sure the House would agree, or that the right hon. Baronet should not press his Amendment to a Division.
I would appeal to loyal members of my party on this side to bear in mind the very honourable and important words which were uttered just now by our Leader the Secretary of State for the Colonies. He is our representative in the Coalition Government. While we have a Coalition Government—I hope the Coalition Government will continue until the end of this War—it is the duty of all loyal people in this House to give their support to that Government on every occasion. That Government represents all parties. It represents the Radical party, it represents ourselves, it represents the Labour party, although, unfortunately, it does not represent our Irish Friends—I wish it did. There are influences at work of which we all know, influences which were mentioned in the Debate yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Member for St. George's, Hanover Square (Sir George Reid), and there are difficulties looming in the distance. I wish to utter a warning against the silent influences which are tending to wear away the Coalition Government. Those influences, in my opinion, are not to the interest of this country while we are at War I would urge moderation—moderation on the Unionist Committee and moderation on the Radical Committee—and I would ask them not to press those Motions which both of them have put upon the Paper. With a final appeal, both to the Government and to my right hon. Friend, in this time of War, not to press a party issue—because it is a party issue—to a Division, I sincerely trust that they will both, or one of them, withdraw.
My sole reason for rising is to explain my own position in this matter. Several hon. Members on this side of the House have risen to explain that they are as much opposed to the payment of Members as they ever were, that they are pledged to oppose it, but that they are not going to oppose it on this occasion. I admit that my position is perhaps a difficult one in carrying out what I have absolutely pledged myself to do on every occasion when this question was raised in the House. I do not take the view that has been taken by some hon. Members that the position of affairs entirely alters all these things. I know what my views are. I am sorry that the question has been raised at the present moment. I am sorry that the Government have not seen their way to withdraw this very small Motion of their own, which has raised the whole question. It is only a matter of £40,000 a year. That would perhaps enable the right hon. Baronet to withdraw his Amendment.
I am not going to withdraw it.
I can quite understand that. Logically the right hon. Baronet is perfectly right, because if £250,000 is not worth having it was not worth while for the Government to raise the whole question on a matter of £40,000 a year. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies cast in the teeth of the right hon. Baronet the statement that some hon. Members were ready to support vicarious economies. He pointed out that many Members of this House who are concerned are fighting at the Front, and would not be the people who will vote in this Division. That appears to be the very reason why the Government should not have raised the question in their absence. Why should we, who are here in black coats, vote vicariously for somebody else giving up something which we are not called upon to do? If we are not prepared to give up the salary which was voted in 1911 for the duration of a Parliament of five years, which has now been exceeded, when we are now in the sixth year, and when we have no shadow of claim to this payment from the Treasury—if we are not prepared to give that up, it is a very poor thing that we should say, in the absence of Members who are performing a duty in which I have no doubt many of us would be glad to assist if we could—it is a duty we cannot perform—that because they are away they should give up £40,000 of their salaries while we are not going to give up any of ours. An hon. Member opposite said that he came into the House since the payment of Members' salaries, and therefore was entitled to rely upon it. How can he be entitled to rely on the receipt of £400 a year after the proper period for which he was elected to this House has expired by more than four months. He could not possibly have expected it to go on for a period exceeding five years, because before the end of that period there would, in all probability, have been a General Election. That was what he was entitled to rely upon. If there had been a General Election, I believe that very few Members who support the payment of Members would have been returned. I support the Amendment of the right hon. Baronet.
Hon. Members are faced with one difficulty, namely, the question that has been raised of those Members who would find themselves in a difficult position financially if this payment is suddenly stopped. I quite appreciate that difficulty, but it is the Government who are to blame for placing them in that position. The Government should have faced this question. They have avoided facing it as they avoid every difficulty that comes in their way. They knew quite well that the country was in such urgent need of money as to have to close museums and economise in the stationery of this House. They should have seen that economy was practised as well as preached. I am quite certain there is a strong feeling throughout the country, although it may not be reflected in this House, that hon. Members should, wherever possible, give up their salaries. Therefore, the Government should have faced the difficulty and have come to some conclusion by which those Members who were not in a position to do without the salary should be able to bring their cases before you, Mr. Speaker, or some other competent authority, to decide whether that salary should be granted. If they had done that they would not now have been able to plead the difficulty in which certain Members are placed. It is because they did not face the facts that they are in the present difficulty. I shall vote for the Amendment, because I believe the time has come when something should be done with regard to the matter. I do not believe the country would regard it as a dreadful disaster if certain Members of Parliament were not able to take part in the Debates here, or even if the constitution of the Government were changed. I, for one, believe that the right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) was perfectly justified in bringing forward the Amendment, and that the accusations made against him of raising a party issue are most unfounded and unfair.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
The House divided: Ayes, 247; Noes, 32.
Division No. 4. ]] AYES. [6.29 p.m. Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles Mason, David M. (Coventry) Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Field, William Meagher, Michael Ainsworth, John Stirling Finney, Samuel Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) Anderson, W. C. Fiavin, Michael Joseph Molloy, Michael Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Galbraith, Samuel Money, Sir L. G. Chiozza Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Gilbert, J. D. Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) Glanville, Harold James Mooney, John J. Barnes, Rt. Hon. George N. Goddard, Rt. Hon. Sir Daniel Ford Morgan, George Hay Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick Burghs) Goulding, Sir Edward Alfred Morrell, Philip Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) Graham, Edward John Morison, Hector Beale, Sir William Phipson Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Beauchamp, Sir Edward Hackett, John Muldoon, John Beck, Arthur Cecil Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) Murphy, Martin J. Bird, Alfred Harris, Percy A. (Leicester, S.) Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Nolan, Joseph Boland, John Pius Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Nugent, J. D. (College Green) Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) Hayden, John Patrick Nugent, Sir W. R. (Westmeath, S.) Brace, William Hazleton, Richard Nuttall, Harry Bryce, J. Annan Helme, Sir Norval Watson O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Bull, Sir William James Hemmerde, Edward George O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Burns, Rt. Hon. John Henderson, Rt. Hon. Arthur (Durham) O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Buxton, Noel Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) O'Doherty, Philip Byles, Sir William Pollard Henry, Sir Charles O'Donnell, Thomas Byrne, Alfred Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) O'Grady, James Carew, C. Hewins, William Albert Samuel O'Kelly, James Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred Hill, James O'Malley, William Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. Hinds, John O'Shee, James John Cator, John Hogge, James Myles O'Sullivan, Timothy Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) Holmes, Daniel Turner Outhwaite, R. L. Chamberlain Rt. Hon. J. A. Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Parker, James (Halifax) Chancellor, Henry George Hudson, Walter Pearce, Sir William (Limehouse) Clancy, John Joseph Hume-Williams, William Ellis Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) Cochrane, Cecil Algernon Illingworth, Albert H. Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) Jacobsen, Thomas Owen Phillips, Sir Owen (Chester) Condon, Thomas Joseph John, Edward Thomas Pollard, Sir George H. Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) Pratt, J. W. Cory, Sir Clifford John (St. Ives) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) Cory, James H. (Cardiff) Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) Cosgrave, James Jones, Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe) Pringle, William M. R. Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) Prothero, Rowland Edmund Craig, Col. James (Down, E.) Jowett, Frederick William Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. Craik, Sir Henry Keating, Matthew Radford, George Heynes Crooks, Rt. Hon. William Kenyon, Barnet Raffan, Peter Wilson Crumley, Patrick Keswick, Henry Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Currie, George W. King, Joseph Reddy, Michael Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Reid, Rt. Hon. Sir G. Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) Rendall, Athelstan Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) Richardson, Albion (Peckham) Denniss, E. R. B. Layland-Barrett, Sir F. Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Devlin, Joseph Levy, Sir Maurice Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Dewar, Sir J. A. Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Roberts, George H. (Norwich) Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H. Long, Rt. Hon. Walter Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Dillon, John Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Donovan, John Thomas Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) Robertson, Rt. Hon. John M. Doris, William Lynch, Arthur Alfred Robinson, Sidney Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir J. B. Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Rowlands, James Duffy, William J. Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward McGhee, Richard Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) Edge, Captain William McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Salter, Arthur Clavell Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) Maclean, Rt. Hon Donald Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) Elverston, Sir Harold MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Essex, Sir Richard Walter MacVeagh, Jeremiah Shortt, Edward Falconer, James Malcolm, Ian Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir F. E. (Walton) Farrell, James Patrick Manfield, Harry Smith, Harold (Warrington) Smith, Sir Swire (Keighley, Yorks) Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) Williams, Col. Sir Robert (Dorset, W.) Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrlm, S.) Walters, Sir John Tudor Williamson, Sir Archibald Snowden, Philip Wardle, G J. Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) Spear, Sir John Ward Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T. Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) Winfrey, Sir Richard Stanton, Charles Butt Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) Wing, Thomas Edward Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) Sutton, John E. White, Patrick (Heath, North) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- Swann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. Whitehouse, John Howard Yeo, Alfred William Taylor, John W. (Durham) Whiteley, Herbert J. Young, Edward H. (Norwich) Taylor, Theodore (Radcliffe) Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. Young, William (Perth, East) Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) Whitty, Patrick Joseph Yoxall, Sir James Henry Thomas, James Henry Wiles, Thomas Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Wilkie, Alexander TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr.—Mr. Thome, William (West Ham) Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.) Gulland and Lord E. Talbot. Toulmin, Sir George
NOES. Ashley, Wilfrid W. Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) Quilter, Sir William Eley C. Boyton, James Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) Cautley, Henry Strother Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. Stanier, Capt. Beville Clive, Captain Percy Archer Kerry, Earl of Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Colonel A. R. Turton, Edmund Russborough Dixon, Charles Harvey Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee Warde, Colonel C. E. (Kent, Mid) Du Cros, Arthur Philip Mason, James F. (Windsor) Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud Du Pre, W. Baring Neville, Reginald J. N. Yate, Colonel C. E. Fell, Arthur Newman, John R. P. Fletcher, John Samuel Nicholson, William G. (Petersfleld) TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Sir—Sir Grant, James Augustus Nield, Herbert F. Banbury and Mr. Rawlinson. Greene, Walter Raymond Peto, Basil Edward
Main Question again proposed.
In regard to the first Amendment in the name of the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Colonel Craig)—[after the word "forces," to insert the words "or a salary as holder of any office paid out of public funds"]—we have passed the place for the insertion of those words. The House has just decided that all the words of the Resolution shall stand part. In regard to the second one—[at the end of the Motion, to add the words "or his salary as a holder of any office paid out of public funds"]—he may move to add the words at the end, but I doubt whether it will make the Resolution very intelligible.
I beg to move, at the end of the Resolution, to add the words "or his salary as a holder of any office paid out of public funds."
Of course, if the Government are desirous of adopting the Amendment, I presume they will take steps to put it right. I should be prepared to make the Amendment an addendum to the Resolution which has been passed by the House. The object I have in view is very obvious, and the Government will be well advised to take away from the Resolution the stigma, if we may call it so, of penalising only those who are in receipt of pay in a military or naval capacity and to add a few words which will make it prohibitory for any Member of the House who is in receipt of a salary from public funds, no matter in what capacity, to accept his salary as Member of Parliament. I am quite aware that there are very few instances in which Members of this House receive salaries out of public funds over and above the remittance from the Treasury for their Parliamentary duties, but at the same time I think those Members who are serving at the front would feel that all Members should be treated alike, and not that they alone should be singled out for special treatment. In other words, it resolves the Government Motion into a universal one instead of a special one, so that all Members will be required to answer a query sent out to all Members, instead of those who are serving in the forces being picked out to answer the question as to whether they receive salaries from public funds, and in that case whether they will elect to receive such salary or would prefer to-receive the Parliamentary salary instead. I think the fairness of the proposal will appeal to all quarters of the House. I think there is no excuse for any Member, whether he be a Recorder in some part of the country, whether he be a director of some concern which is run by the Government, or whether he is in any other position which is paid out of public funds. I do not think any such Member would object to be classed among those who are at present serving with the Colours. The justice of the plea that they should be included in the Resolution is a matter on which I have consulted a number of hon. Members, and in every instance they have seemed to me to grasp at once the reasonableness of the suggestion and at the same time the fairness it would show to those who at great personal sacrifice are serving with the fighting forces. It may be said this will entail further work on the Treasury officials, instead of having merely to communicate with those who are serving with the Forces—a small number, considering the total number of Members of this House—that they would require to elicit the facts from every individual Member. That I quite agree is the case. It would for necessary for all of us to sign a form to say whether we were in receipt of any emoluments out of public funds other than our salaries as Members of Parliament, and, if so, whether such emolument should be received in lieu of the salary as Member of Parliament. The object of the Amendment is very clear and very simple. I hope hon. Members will realise that it is unnecessary for me to give instances where Members are receiving these extra salaries. There are certain Members who are receiving salaries, some small and some very heavy. Those salaries may possibly be paid to them without the receipt at the same time of the salary of a Member of Parliament. As the House knows, there are many Members who have of their own volition refused to take' their salary as a Member of Parliament; therefore it is impossible to tell whether the Members to whom I refer are in receipt of their salaries as Members or not. If my Amendment is adopted, it will place all Members on a common level. I would much prefer that the Government, instead of mentioning by special words in their Motion those serving in His Majesty's naval or military forces, had left those words out and had simply said that the Motion was to refer to any Member in any service paid out of public funds. I hope it will not be too late to take the necessary steps to make this omission right.
I would like to second the Amendment moved by my hon. and gallant Friend, though I confess, after having looked at the Paper, that in some respects I would almost prefer the Amendment which stands in the name of the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon)—[to leave out from the word "House" to the end of the Question, and to insert instead thereof the words "if appointed to any position of emolument under the Government other than that of officer, noncommissioned officer, or private in the combatant ranks of His Majesty's Army or corresponding position in His Majesty's Navy, or other combatant forces of the Crown, shall not be entitled to draw at the same time his salary as a Member of the House of Commons and the salary or pay of the position to which he has been appointed, but he shall be entitled to elect, whether he shall continue to receive his salary as a Member of the House of Commons or in lieu of it draw the pay or salary attached to his new office."] For the moment, at all events, his particular Amendment is obviously a fair one. As my hon. and gallant Friend has said, it seems singularly out of place at the present moment to select the very Members of the House who are serving in the combatant forces for special treatment in this respect. There are Members of this House who are serving in the Army and the Navy who have made very considerable financial sacrifices in order to serve with the Colours. There are men in professions, men at the Bar, and solicitors— I certainly know one or two to whom my words apply—who had to leave practices which they were pursuing while Members of this House in order to join the Colours, of course running the risk of successful competitors at home, who are not able to serve with the Colours, taking their business. It does, therefore, seem peculiarly out of place that these particular Members who have made these sacrifices —especially having regard to the fact that the Parliamentary salaries, by the consent of all parties, is not paid for attendance at the House—should be singled out for this treatment. I was very much surprised to hear the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in introducing the Government Resolution, use an argument which, I thought, singularly susceptible to misunderstanding. The right hon. Gentleman appeared to think that it was more just to deprive an hon. Member who is serving with the Forces of a second salary than an hon. Member who absents himself from the House for other reasons. What that comes to is this, that if an hon. Member chooses to absent himself for a long time to follow his own concerns, and possibly to make hay while the sun shines, and make profits in some business, that is no concern of the Government. That man is entitled to goon making his money outside the House and to desert his duty here, but he is still entitled to his salary of £400 a year. On the other hand an hon. Member who has given up a lucrative position to join the Colours, and goes to serve the State in that way, then, because he is serving the State he is a just subject for having his Parliamentary salary deducted. I do hope that the right hon. Gentleman will meet us in this respect.
Some of us have found ourselves in very great difficulties over the Amendment which which has just been rejected. The Secretary of State for the Colonies truthfully put the position in which many of us find ourselves, of having to vote against a matter of vital principle with many of us in order to be true to the compact under which Members of both sides of the House are acting in the present circumstances. I have been, and shall be, very much embarrassed by having to give the vote which I have just given for the Government. I do think, however, that we have some claim upon the consideration of the Government when we ask them not to make this treatment peculiar to the hon. Members of this House who are serving with the Army and the Navy. I do not think that there would be anything unreasonable in the Amendment of my hon. and gallant Friend, and I have some confidence that it will meet with the favourable consideration of the Government.
The difficulty under which I labour in treating this Amendment is to know precisely what it means. I do not know of any case to which these words could apply.
dissented.
So far as I know, there is no case of a Recorder paid out of public funds now serving at the front.
Not at the front. Mr. McKENNA: Serving in the Army.
At home, and getting double salary.
There is no case of which I know of a Recorder paid out of public funds.
Surely a Recorder is paid out of the rates of the borough in which he is serving.
Those are not public funds. The words of the Amendment would not cover that case. There is no case that I know of of a Recorder who is a Member of Parliament being paid out of public funds, so these words, as far as I know, would not cover a single case. I, therefore, should feel rather doubtful about accepting words the meaning of which, so far as I am aware, could have no direct relation to the particular matter in question. Perhaps I may be allowed to say that I think there is a great deal of misunderstanding upon a point in regard to the main question. This Motion was put forward by the Government in the interests of economy. It is purely and simply a Motion to abolish the payment of duplicate salaries out of public funds, and it is a Motion which we have put forward on the direct recommendation of the Retrenchment Committee. I would suggest to the House that it would not be respectful to the Government to pass over a Motion which was recommended to them by that very important Committee.
made a remark which was not audible in the Reporters' Gallery.
I mean it would not be respectful of the Government.
You said "to the Government."
It was a mistake on my part. I mean that it would not be respectful on the part of the Government to pass over a resolution recommended by an important Committee of that kind, and more particularly one which has so much to recommend it on the ground of economy.
Do you exercise it?
I do. The work of the Retrenchment Committee continues, and I have done my best to carry out the recommendations made, and I am doing my best now. As I stated in introducing the Motion, I recognise that this is eminently a question upon which, while there is no party division, quite different views may be taken. I never proposed, and we do not propose now, that the Government Whips should be put on for this Motion. It is a question which should be left to the independent decision of the House, and I hope that we may come to a decision at an early moment upon the Motion itself. For my part, while I think the Amendment which we have dealt with had a party colour, I do not think that this Motion has any party colour, and I would be glad if the House could as early as possible come to a decision independently on it.
The right hon. Gentleman said that the words of this Amendment would not cover the cases which we have in view. My hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Craig) and myself took advice that we thought as high as any we were likely to get on that point, but apparently, according to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, we were wrongly advised. If that be so, and my right hon. Friend says there is no party question involved, I would ask him, if he is willing to give a favourable ear to the Amendment, that he should himself give us the words that would cover the case.
Will the hon. Gentleman tell me the case?
Recordership is one case.
I am told that there is no Member of Parliament holding a recordership paid out of public funds.
Paid out of the rates, then.
I understand that what my hon. Friends mean by the Amendment is, that no Member of Parliament should receive his salary and also receive a salary whether paid out of public funds, civic funds, or from the rates. The right hon. Gentleman has stated that he knows of no case of a Recorder, who is a Member of Parliament, who is paid a salary out of public funds. In order to meet that point I would beg to move an Amendment to the Amendment proposed by my hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Craig) to insert after the word "public" the words "or civic." We are here to-day to try to promote economy. We are here, I understand, to try to' ensure that no person shall get his salary as Member of Parliament and also another salary out of public funds. Therefore, with that view, I strongly support the Amendment of my hon. and gallant Friend.
Does the hon. Member move his Amendment?
Yes. I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, after the word "public," to insert the words "or civic."
I beg to second the Amendment to the proposed Amendment. I think we want to cover this matter in every way we can. I do not know any subject in the country that is looked upon with such loathing as the payment of Members.
The hon. and gallant Member rose for the purpose of seconding this very narrow Amendment, and he must confine his observations to that.
If we pass the Motion in its present form it will mean that we shall touch the pay of the gallant men who are fighting for us at the front, and leave intact the remuneration of Members of Parliament who are holding Recorderships and other things in this country. I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will agree to the alteration of the Amendment of the hon. and gallant Member (Colonel Craig) so as to cover all cases of men who are getting double salaries.
7.0 P.M.
I could have hoped that the Chancellor of the Exchequer might even go further than he has, and that he might withdraw the Resolution altogether. The very Amendment that we are on now shows how mean and petty is the whole Resolution. It is said that you are to go on allowing men to draw the salaries they get as Members of this House, and also salaries which they get out of rates or civic funds. But you are not to allow the man who is fighting at the front, who may have given up everything he has almost, to go on drawing these sums. Surely it has dwindled down to such a petty question that it is almost beneath the dignity of the House that we are discussing it, and I make the most earnest appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to withdraw it.
If it is the general wish of the House that the Motion should be withdrawn, I should be the last person who should ask the House to go to a Division. But I felt that it was necessary for me to discharge my duty, and though I have not been able to obtain the support of the cause of economy by the House at the present time, I hope that on a future occasion the House will support me. I do not know that this would be the proper time at which I could withdraw the Motion.
Amendment to proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Military Service
Local Tribunals
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 22nd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
I put a number of questions to-day to the President of the Local Government Board dealing with the administration of the Military Service Act. I also addressed a question to the Prime Minister, which was answered by the President of the Local Government Board, to which I wish to call, attention. I asked the Prime Minister "If he will state what action the Government propose to take in regard to the cases where applicants for exemption from the Military Service Act have been refused certificates through the illegal action of tribunals; and, in view of the number of men who are being arrested every day whose cases are identical with others who have been granted exemption, will he at once take the necessary steps to prevent this state of affairs." The reply of the President of the Local Government Board was, "I can only say at present that the Government are keeping a close watch on these cases." I raise the question now because the matter is one of the very gravest urgency, and I am anxious that the Government should do something more than keep a close watch on these cases. I had the opportunity of speaking on this question about a fortnight ago when the President of the Local Government Board announced that he was about to issue a circular to the local and appeal tribunals pointing out that they appeared to have been under a misapprehension in regard to certain parts of the Act and the Regulations. That circular was duly issued. In it the right hon. Gentleman calls the attention of the tribunals to the misinterpretation of the Act in regard to giving certificates for absolute exemption on the ground of conscientious objection to military service. Though that circular has been in the hands of the tribunals for a fortnight, it appears to have made very little impression upon them. Very often we have been told by the right hon. Gentleman, when we have called attention to cases of injustice before the local tribunals, that there was an opportunity of these things being set right before the appeal tribunals. Unfortunately, that has not happened. We have ample proof that these tribunals are acting quite as illegally, as unfairly and unjustly as so many of the local tribunals unfortunately have done. As the time for this Debate is limited, I will confine my illustrations to a very few cases. The cases which I shall quote all happened since the issue of the right hon. Gentleman's circular a fortnight ago.
The first case which I wish to quote is one that happened before the London County Appeal Tribunal, which reversed the decision of the Camberwell Tribunal, which had given non-combatant service to a conscientious objector, and recommended him for combatant duty. In this case the man was a lay preacher in charge of the Gospel Lifeboat Mission at Peckham. In an appeal to the same tribunal, in the case of another objector who was given non-combatant service by the local tribunal, the appeal tribunal reversed the decision of the local tribunal, and ordered this man for combatant service. On the 30th March, before the Monmouthshire tribunal, a conscientious objector appealed against the decision of the local tribunal, which had given non-combatant service. The appeal tribunal transferred him to the combatant section. The reason I mention these cases is that in each case the appeal tribunal refused leave to appeal to the central tribunal. I desire to call attention to the refusal of a number of appeal tribunals to recognise that part of the Local Government Board's circular which calls attention to the power to grant absolute exemption in cases where facts had been established proving a conscientious objection. The Surrey Tribunal has decided—these are the words in which the decision is announced: the Act if the court is satisfied that the man is a conscientious objector, and the fact is established, then he is entitled to a certificate of absolute exemption. Counsel for this man said:
I have here a much more recent case which came into my hands to-day. It refers to the Appeal Tribunal which sat yesterday at Spring Gardens. The writer says that the conduct of the tribunal was a perfect disgrace. Even non-combatant services were withdrawn, and the chairman definitely stated, in spite of Mr. Long's circular, that they are not empowered to grant exemption. Just a few more cases of tribunals which, since the issue of, the circular, are refusing to be bound by its instructions. I have already referred to the Middlesex Appeal Tribunal. In the case of a man named Ward, the chairman, who is a King's Counsel, said that the applicant was a Socialist and could not have a conscience. The chairman of the local tribunal at Burnley has told all Socialists that they could not have a conscience. In the case to which I have just referred no exemption was given, and leave to appeal was refused. The Surrey Appeal Tribunal had before it a case in which absolute exemption had been granted by the local tribunal. The military representative appealed on the ground that the appellant was only twenty-five, and was able to do military work of some kind. At Stoke-on-Trent the Appeal Tribunal, on the 31st March, ten days after the issue of the right hon. Gentleman's circular, had eight appeals from conscientious objectors. The cases were taken together without any indication being given as to whether the evidence was considered sufficient, and no further evidence was asked for in any individual case. Under the decision the previous certificates were withdrawn, and the appellants were ordered for service. At this Appeal Tribunal eight military representatives were present. There were nineteen appeals before the Midlothian Tribunal in cases in which absolute exemption had been given by the Edinburgh Local Tribunal. Eighteen of these were reversed, and the applicants were ordered for non-combatant service. Referring again to the Middlesex Appeal Tribunal, the chairman of whom is a King's Counsel, as I have already stated—and this is, mark you, since the issue of the Local Government Board circular—absolutely refused exemption. The Surrey Tribunal, the chairman of whom is also a King's Counsel, said: of the tribunals. The Manchester Tribunal was divided into two committees, and on a recent date two Courts were held for conscientious objectors and for other claims on other grounds. In all the claims of the conscientious objectors in one Court they were given non-combatant service, but in the other Court, to which some of the conscientious objectors had been sent to be heard, no exemption at all was given to them. That is an extremely serious matter. If these men had remained in the first Court in all probability they would have been given non-combatant service, but simply through the accident of their being sent to an adjoining room another and quite different decision was given. This involves very serious consequences to these unfortunate individuals. If these men are going to refuse to accept the decision of the committee, I ask whether they are to be punished simply because of the inconsistency between the two parts of the same tribunal sitting exactly at the same time? I have referred to the Surrey Appeal Tribunal, where they refused to give absolute exemption; and at Derby the tribunal said absolutely that no exemption can be given to conscientious men. In the Durham Appeal Tribunal, on the 28th of March, the chairman announced that the tribunal had no concern with the Local Government Board circulars; their duty was to administer the Act. I have a letter from a man at Oxford who tells me that he is a journalist of a great many years' experience, and that he has no particular opinions upon this question. He writes to me of what he has seen and heard in these tribunals. He says: I raised to-day at Question Time the matter of refusals of requests for remands, and this is a letter from a solicitor practising at Nottingham: might be made and the case prepared, but this was not allowed. Here is another case which, though it was under appeal, yet the man received notice from the military recruiting officer at Plymouth, in these words: following day. He pleaded "not guilty," and his request for an adjournment in order to prepare his case was peremptorily refused. On 30th March, A. Cork and his brother, E. Cork, members of the Forest Gate Branch, were brought before the East Ham Police Court. Neither of them had applied for exemption, and they pleaded conscientious objection and asked for a remand. The magistrate refused the remand. In another case at Smethwick, two brothers, both school teachers and members of the N.C.F., were arrested and taken before the Smethwick Police Court. Both had appeared before the tribunals, and had been refused exemption, and in each case a remand had been asked for and refused. I ask the Home Secretary to issue a circular in regard to this matter—I am quite sure he will save a great deal of future work for his Department—stating that a request for a remand in order that the case may be prepared should be granted by the magistrate. I would like to read a letter which I received last night, and which I think exposes the way in which men are quite unexpectedly being arrested by the police. It is from a widow named Burkle, 65, Quicks Road, Wimbledon, on 4th April: very categorically. It is a letter from a soldier, who gives his regimental number, and says: the administration of the Act and the devising of some new machinery for dealing with this difficult class of objector? I think it has been proved that the tribunals, by the way they have discharged their duty, are not fit bodies to deal with this matter. I do appeal to the Government to realise the seriousness of the question, and that the necessity of dealing with it in an effective way cannot be any longer delayed. I hope that we shall get from the right hon. Gentleman this evening some satisfactory statement which will not only allay grave anxiety outside, but will prevent the accumulation of difficulties which are growing every day.
I am glad I came back to the House, which I thought had adjourned, and that I had the opportunity of hearing the hon. Member, who referred to some matters dealt with by me in the Middlesex Tribunal, and gave an identification of me which, I think, was complete. I think I shall probably find in the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow that I was referred to by the hon. Member.
Yes, you were.
As I have got that admission I should like to inform the House that in all the cases that were allowed to appeal, of conscientious objectors I found those appealing stated that in the tribunal below they were afforded very short opportunities of making their case, but they all admitted that in the Appeal Tribunal they had the fullest opportunity of doing so. I turn from the matter personal to simply say this: With respect to the question whether or not a conscientious objector when once he establishes his claim to possess a conscience is to have complete exemption or to have exemption limited only to non-combatant service or exemption from combatant, to use the words of the Section, or to be only exempted alternatively in the event of taking up some national work of a useful character, that is a question as to the construction of the Act which neither this House nor any tribunal has the right to construe otherwise than according to such light at the time before them. That is a question for the law to decide, and since the discussion has arisen I have been hoping that the Local' Government Board would take care that the Law Courts would be promptly asked to construe the different parts of the Act and say whether or not it must necessarily be one or other of the alternatives mentioned in the Act. Hitherto the Local Government Board, most properly, if I may say so in the presence of the President, in all municipal matters has always set its face against giving advice with regard to the construction of Acts of Parliament. Local authorities are told to go to the Law Courts, and why not that method in this case?
Will the hon. Gentleman say what is his reading of the Act? Is it his view that the tribunal has no power to grant total exemption?
My own personal view is of no account, but on reading the Act the very best opinion I can come to is this, that there must be either one or other of these conditions attached to the certificate. Though this House has no right to construe an Act of Parliament which it passes, I do say this, the word "absolute" alluded to in Section 2 refers to paragraph ( a ) and paragraph ( b )—that is, to work in the national interests which is more important than service in the Army—and ( b ) in relation to the hardship to be established. If that view is wrong, then it is for the Law Courts to put us right. I was anxious to know what answer was given to the hon. Member for Edinburgh with regard to the Scottish case. I think it was set out in the circular that the only exemptions to be given were qualified in that way.
No, no!
I desired to intervene to say that a very difficult and onerous duty has been put upon us. It takes us three days from early afternoon to seven o'clock, and I am quite ready to relinquish that duty if it is thought that I am not doing my best to administer the Act in accordance with its provisions.
I am quite sure that nobody suggests that my hon. Friend is not doing his best to perform his duties with great discretion. I am not sure that his view of the interpretation of the Act and mine entirely agree. I would rather discuss that matter privately with him than on the floor of the House. It is extremely difficult for a layman to give what is in reality a legal interpretation of legal language. I want to say quite frankly that this kind of Debate is not encouraging to the Government or to those who have the case of the conscientious objector at heart. I wanted to say something more and to be quite plain, and that is that the raising of the conscientious objector's case in this way is doing those cases a great deal of harm. The hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden) said that the circulars issued by my Department were not receiving the attention which they ought to receive, and he suggested some alterations. The House must at once realise that it is impossible to ask me to put into the form of a regulation which would have the force of law what could only be interpretations made by my advisers and myself and which are given to the tribunal not as directions like Statutes, which they are bound to obey, but as advice given in good faith, with the best opinion at our disposal and which obviously they can, if they choose, neglect. Certainly they can do so. [An HON. MEMBER: "They do!"] It is very significant that these complaints about the tribunals and these charges against them come almost exclusively from those Members of the House who opposed the Military Service Bill, and who are opposing it now.
We want to carry it out.
An hon. Gentleman says they want to kill the Act.
No, no! I did not say that. What I said was, we want the law carried out fairly.
That has nothing to do with what I was saying. I said it was a very significant fact that the criticisms come exclusively from those who were opposed to the passing of the Act and who have not done anything to try and make it a success since it was passed. That is true. I make the statement and I adhere to it. It is a significant fact. I say no more about it than that. Do not let the House run away with the impression that these are the only complaints. There are scores and thousands of complaints which reach me; but what are they? They are that tribunals are taking far too easy a view of the claims of those who come before them, and are admitting claims where frequently they ought to do nothing of the sort. The House of Commons is the last place in the world where you can retry cases which have been heard before properly appointed tribunals. I have stated times out of number that I am prepared to inquire into any case brought before me which, prima facie , seems to be one for legitimate inquiry. I have made a large number of inquiries. With what result? That in almost every case I have been given clear and unmistakable evidence showing that the allegations made in the House were incorrect, and that there is a great deal to be said on both sides. One authority is as good as another. There is nothing sacred in the person of a Member of Parliament. It does not follow because a Member of Parliament makes a statement here that he, and he alone, is correct. You are entitled to hear the chairmen of the tribunals; you are entitled to look at the newspapers. Do not let hon. Members think that the newspapers from which they quote are the only newspapers which give reports of these cases. Do not let hon. Members think that the reports which they quote here are in themselves to be relied upon as giving the whole facts of the case. You have, first of all, to find out what are the views of those newspapers in regard to the Act. If they are hostile to it, I do not blame them for providing their readers with the sort of material which they think most likely to attract and interest them. The allegations constantly take the form that the chairman of the tribunal made a particular statement. I ask the chairman or the clerk; I get a record of the proceedings, and I find in case after case, either that the chairman never made the statement attributed to him, or that it was not made by any member of the tribunal, or that it was made by some member of the tribunal who was called to order by the chairman and requested not to make statements of that kind. Do not let the House think at all that I am unwilling to inquire into these cases and, if necessary, take such action as is possible to me.
The hon. Member for Blackburn mentioned the case of an applicant who stated that he held certain conscientious objector's views and that he had held them for a long time. The tribunal dismissed the appeal. The hon. Member then said, with his well-known oratorical powers, that the man stated that he had held conscientious objector's views all his lifetime and that the case was turned down in consequence. How does he know that that was the reason the case was turned down? I will give the hon. Member a case. An applicant came before a tribunal—I think it was an Appeal Tribunal—claiming to be a conscientious objector. I have held throughout that you cannot discuss and decide these cases here; they must be dependent not only upon the evidence given, but upon the way in which the evidence is given and upon the history of the man who gives it. This man claimed to be a conscientious objector. He said that he objected not only to military service, but to doing any work connected with war. He was asked what he was working at. He said that his trade was that of a carpenter. He was asked what his wages were—23s. before the War. He was asked what he was doing now. He was working for a contractor under the War Office engaged on what may fairly be called war work, and was receiving 46s. a week. The tribunal asked him if he thought that that was consistent with his statement that he was a conscientious objector and that he would have nothing to do with any form of war work. His answer was, "I am a free man and I am entitled to take any work I choose for the benefit of my wife and family." He had got a partial exemption. The Appeal Court removed that partial exemption, and told him that on his own statement he must go to the Service.
If he is a married man he does not come under the Military Service Act.
This is the case of an attested man.
Ah!
Are you only going to claim justice for the men who come under the Military Service Act? I think there is a much stronger claim for those who attested. The man who attests and then finds he is unable to fulfil his obligation has an even better case.
May I ask—
I really cannot give way. The hon. Member for Blackburn occupied more than half the time at our disposal, and I cannot abandon any of the few minutes left to me. It doss not matter whether he is a single man or an attested man under the Derby scheme.
You cannot have conscientious objectors under the Derby scheme.
That is really absurd. This shows the extraordinary inconsistency of those who are putting the case of these men—not to their advantage. We have had cases brought up of men who attested who were not then aware that it was possible to claim exemption under the conscientious objectors' provisions, and I have been urged to extend to them the privileges of the Act, because at the time of their attestation they did not know that conscientious objectors could be relieved. You really cannot have it both ways. Whether he was an attested man or a compelled man does not make the smallest difference in regard to what I was pointing out, namely, that when you allege that certain statements are made in Court and that certain proceedings of the Court are consequential upon those statements, you must not conclude that you have the whole case before you. In almost every case—so far as I know in every case up to date—that I have inquired into the allegations made in this House have not been sustained by the facts as revealed to me. I have not yet had a single case in which I have found it my duty to interfere, supposing I had the power. The Government can, of course, suggest to the Appeal Tribunal—which I have done in more than one case where there has been some good ground for it—that they should allow a case to be reheard. They may refuse to do it. The hon. Member for Blackburn says that the only thing to do is to remove the tribunal. In other words, this House is to decide all these cases. Every case is to be brought up here. The evidence is to be repeated by those who admit that they are hostile to the Act, and that they are not impartial but partial advocates of the cause they are urging. Every case is to be reconsidered here, not by a tribunal with the procedure of the Act, but by His Majesty's Government. It is an impossible proposal—absolutely impossible.
I believe that on the whole the tribunals, whether local or appeal, have done and are doing their work extremely well. They have an extremely difficult task to perform. Hon. Members say that the military representatives have an undue share in the work. If they have, give me evidence of cases where military representatives have interfered with the administration by the tribunals, and I will inquire into such cases and deal with them at once. They have no right whatever to do it. The military representative is the representative of the War Office; he is present to put the case of the War Office and to decide, if the decision goes against him, whether or not there should be an appeal applied for. He has nothing whatever to do with the consideration of the case by the tribunal or with the decision. If I have direct evidence where a military representative has unduly interfered, I will deal with it at once with the War Office.
The hon. Member for Blackburn said that in one case the military representative was in possession of information as to the decision which the Court was going to give. I never heard of such a case. I can hardly believe that the hon. Member has not been misled. If he will give me the particulars I will inquire into the case and see that anything of that kind is, as far as I am able to do it, rendered impossible in the future. It is certainly wholly and absolutely improper. In the case of the watchmaker, a widow's only son who was taken, I understand that there has been no application for an appeal. The man has come under the Act and has taken no steps to obtain relief. Therefore I do not see who is to blame except the man himself. We are told that this man did not know about the Act. Can any Member of the House believe that there is anybody in the country with eyes to see and ears to hear who does not know perfectly well that this Act is in force, that there is a general recruiting system going on all over the country, and that the Government are doing their best to get men to fill the Army and to support our gallant fellows at the front? Is not that knowledge widespread? Does not every newspaper, large or small, London or provincial, contain columns on the subject? Is it conceivable that an intelligent man living in a town can say that he was taken improperly because he did not know that the Act was in force and that he was liable? The thing is incredible. I am sorry for a man who is overtaken in this way, but I find it very difficult to believe that he was really ignorant of the risk that he was running. Certainly it is not the fault of the Act or of the tribunal; it is the fault of nobody except the man himself.
The hon. Member for Blackburn asked me about the death penalty and what the Government were going to do with the men who are refused exemption. These men are soldiers under an Act of Parliament, and it will be for the War Office to decide what is to be done. In some cases complaints have been made where they have offered these men alternative service or service of which they disapprove. The hon. Member spoke slightingly of the Committee. But they are doing their best to find alternative employment. But why a Committee at all? If a man really desires to put his services at the disposal of the country, there is ample field for his employment to-day. There is agriculture and industry of all kinds. If a man is really anxious to find alternative employment, employment is waiting for him. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Everybody knows that employers in industries and farmers throughout the country are wanting men at this moment. Agriculture is of national importance. Many of these other industries are of national importance.
Is agriculture accepted as non-combatant service?
Is agriculture combatant service?
I mean, is it accepted as within the terms of the Circular?
8.0 P.M.
Of real national importance; other industries are the same! No, no! It is not the fault of the tribunals. Put the saddle on the right horse. These are cases of men who claim exemption on conscientious grounds and are unwilling themselves to find work to do. Produce cases where a man has said, "I am ready to go into employment of national importance."
made an observation which was inaudible in the Reporters' Gallery.
Very well, if you really want these wrongs righted do not let us have debates here. Send them to me. Have I refused to look into a single case? Have I failed to make inquiries into one single case which has been mentioned here? If you really want to put right what is wrong and to help the men who, as they think, have been injured, make your application to me. Do not let us have debates which only have the effect of arousing hostility against the tribunals. They will have the feeling that they are not going to be dictated to by Parliament. I am here to do my duty according to the Act of Parliament, and within its powers I will do my utmost. I will undertake that any case sent to me shall be at once inquired into, and where wrong has been done, if I can help it, it shall be put right. The House may rest assured that we shall do this. The Government are actuated by the desire to do their duty to the country by securing the soldiers which we must have if we are to maintain our existence as a nation, preserve the liberties of our people, and to do justice to all concerned within the powers contained in the Act of Parliament.
The right hon. Gentleman just now made a statement which seems to me so exceedingly important that in the few minutes at my disposal I should like to press that point. As I understand him, he seems to suggest that conscientious objectors, who are exempted from combatant service, may turn to agriculture, or some occupation of national importance.
No, no, really—
Well, that is what I rose to ask.
There are two forms of exemption. The one is from combatant service. The man exempted from combatant service may apply for other service, clerical service, and so on. Then there is the case of the man who is exempted from all service—what is called "total exemption." That is only possible if the man is engaged in work of national importance. It is in this case where, as I say, any industry of national importance is open to him.
I am glad at any rate to have cleared up that point. The difficulty arising is in the case of men who are being taken from work which really is of national importance, and dragged into non-combatant service in the Army. If I had time, I could give cases of men taken from agriculture and put into non-combatant service in the Army.
It being one hour after the conclusion of Government business, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 22nd February.
Adjourned at Three minutes after Eight o'clock, till Monday next, 10th April, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 22nd February last.
Petition Presented
The following Petition was presented and ordered to lie upon the Table:—
Thursday
Military Service (Lord Derby's Scheme),—Petition from Oyne, for calling up all single men before attested married men.