Skip to main content

Commons Chamber

Volume 81: debated on Tuesday 11 April 1916

House of Commons

Tuesday, April 11, 1916

Private Business

Colonial Bank Bill,

A verbal Amendment made; Bill read the third time, and passed.

Electric Lighting Provisional Order Bill,

Read a second time, and committed.

New Writ

For Queen's County (Ossory Division), in the room of William Delaney, Esquire, deceased.— [ Mr. Patrick O'Brien. ]

National Gallery (Ireland)

Copy presented of Report of the Director for the year 1915 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Colonial Probates Act, 1892

Copy presented of Order in Council, dated 30th March, 1916, applying the Act to Sierra Leone [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Naval and Marine Pay and Pensions Act, 1865

Copy presented of Order in Council, dated 30th March, 1916, relative to the Royal Naval Air Service [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Foreign Jurisdiction Act, 1890

Copy presented of Order in Council, dated 30th March, 1916, relating to various Protectorates [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Foreign Jurisdiction Acts, 1890 and 1913

Copies presented of Three Orders in Council, dated 30th March, 1916, applying the Colonial Probates Act, 1892, and the Colonial Prisoners Removal Act, 1869, to various Colonies [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Merchant Shipping Act. 1884, and Merchant Shipping (Mercantile Marine Fund) Act, 1898

Copy presented of Order in Council, dated 30th March, 1916, relative to Light Dues [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Munitions Tribunals (Appeal) Rules (Ireland), 1916

Copy presented of Munitions Tribunals (Appeal) Rules (Ireland), 1916, dated 6th March, 1916 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Enemy Property in Post

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can make any statement as to the negotiations with neutral Powers relative to the seizure by Britain and her Allies of enemy property passing to and from enemy country through the post?

His Majesty's Government and the French Government have just presented to those neutral Powers who have protested against their treatment of the mails a Memorandum, which has been laid upon the Table and will shortly be in the hands of Members. I do not know that there is anything which I can add to the statement there made.

Blockade

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give any information as to the action of his Department in developing the economic blockade of enemy countries?

I am afraid that within the limits of a reply to a Parliamentary question it would not be possible to go into detail on this subject. Speaking generally, I think I may say that the effectiveness is fully maintained in every way possible.

Is it possible by any White Paper or other means to communicate to the House some of the results upon this matter?

I imagine that it would entail a great deal of work, but I think the hon. Member had better address that question to my right hon. Friend.

Military Service

Non-Combatant Service

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War why men holding certificates of exemption from combatant service are being attached to Infantry regiments and why they are being compelled to accept rifles; and if he will take immediate steps to secure that the conditions of such persons' service are strictly observed by the military authorities?

My information on this point is not yet complete, and I will ask my hon. Friend to repeat the question next week.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he has considered the representation made to the War Office by the Mayor of Lich-field, as chairman of the Lichfield City Tribunal, to the effect that a large number of single and young married men are employed in the Army Pay, Record, and other non-combatant units at military centres in Great Britain, who would otherwise be eligible for service at the front; and whether, in view of the fact that there are a large number of men above military age who are able and willing to take up these duties, he will make arrangements to transfer these young men from non-combatant to more active military service?

I have already dealt fully with this matter in answer to questions put to me on the 23rd February last, and I fear I can add nothing to the answer I then gave. I will send my hon. Friend a copy.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are a great many men over military age who are only too anxious to be made use of at the present time?

Yes, but my hon. Friend will see that in the administration of a very complicated business you cannot suddenly take away all the trained members and substitute wholly untrained men.

Tracing Single Men

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether a deputation of married men, who waited on Lord Derby on the 3rd April, offered to organise themselves into committees to assist in tracing single men and compelling them to serve, and that Lord Derby accepted this offer; whether such committees have now been formed and are co-operating with military representatives and recruiting officers; whether special instructions and duties are being given to these committees; whether starred single men and exempted men are suspicious of the operations of these committees, fearing that spying in workshops and at home and working out old grudges may now get full play; and whether he will give such orders that members of these new recruiting committees may be publicly known and carry some distinguishing mark of their authority?

I am informed by Lord Derby that the deputation offered to supply him with the names of single men who had not been able to be traced by the military authorities. Lord Derby accepted this offer, but asked them to supply the information to the local recruiting officer instead of to him. There is no question of forming new recruiting committees.

Then we may be quite sure that there will be nothing like spying or trying to get men out of their jobs in order to put other persons in such as is definitely feared by certain people who have only access to the newspaper reports?

No, Sir; I am really not able to say what steps the married men may take to track the single men.

Local Tribunals

asked the Under-secretary for War if he will make inquiry into the case mentioned by Dr. E. Vipont Brown, of Surrey Lodge, Birch Lane, Long-sight, Manchester, of a patient of his who has been refused exemption from military service by the Salford Local Tribunal, the youth being an epileptic and the Army doctor who passed him actually saw him in an epileptic fit; and whether he will take suitable action against the medical officer guilty of this conduct?

asked the Under secretary for War if he has called the attention of the military representative on the Runcorn Rural District Tribunal sitting at Dutton Workhouse to the illegality and impropriety of his remark at a sitting of the tribunal held on the 28th March when, after the tribunal had refused an application for exemption on conscientious grounds by Edwin H. Jenkins, the military representative suggested that a military escort should be sent for the appellant that night; and has he removed this military representative from his position?

I have no knowledge of the statement alleged to have been made by the military representative of the Runcorn Rural District Tribunal. I could not associate myself with the condemnation of the military representative unless the illegality and impropriety were clearly established.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make inquiries into the facts stated in the question?

asked the President of the Local Government Board if he is aware that no direct representative of labour has been placed upon the Lewisham Local Tribunal, although the Trades Council made application to the borough council for such representation; and whether he will communicate with the borough council with a view to labour being directly represented on the tribunal?

My right hon. Friend is informed that there is a labour representative on the tribunal. He is making further inquiries in the matter.

asked the President of the Local Government Board if his attention has been called to a case which was before the Hedington Rural District local tribunal on 1st April, where a highly-educated young man claimed exemption on conscientious grounds; whether it is proper for a man in a military position to be chairman of the tribunal; whether he is aware that this chairman impatiently obtrudes his own views and opinions, instead of ascertaining those of the applicant; will he say whether this chairman was justified in browbeating and bullying this applicant, and telling him he could go and commit suicide; whether this tribunal was acting according to the instructions and regulations in refusing to hear documentary evidence in support of the claim; and what action he has taken, or proposes to take, in regard to the case?

Local and Appeal Tribunals (Scotland)

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he has now inquired into the case of the shepherd Rattray before the tribunal for the Aberdeen district; and what steps he proposes to take?

This is a case for the applicant, if he is dissatisfied with the decision of the local tribunal, to appeal to the tribunal created for the purpose. I am informed that he has, in fact, appealed.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the chairman of this tribunal expressely referred to private transactions between himself and the applicant, and does he consider that that is in accordance with his duty as chairman of the tribunal?

No, Sir; I am not quite prepared to take that as a representation of what occurred.

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he has received a petition from Edinburgh, protesting against the administration of the Military Service Act, 1916, by the Lothians and Peebles Appeal Tribunal; and what action he proposes to take?

Having read the petition referred to and made inquiry into its allegations, I do not see any adequate reason for intervention.

On account of the unsatisfactory answer, I beg to give the Secretary for Scotland notice that I will raise the question to-night on the Adjournment.

Glasgow Dockers

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether dockers employed in the Glasgow docks who have attested under the Derby scheme are being called to the Colours or are being exempted; and whether adequate provision has been made for carrying on the essential work of the docks?

There is no reason to suppose that regular dockers employed in the Glasgow docks who have attested are being called to the Colours. Recruiting officers have received the most careful instructions on this matter in order that the essential work in the ports shall not be disorganised.

Can my right hon. Friend give a definite assurance that attested dockers are not being called to the Colours?

My hon. Friend would be right to take that as an assurance. Of course I cannot guarantee that in no individual case have attested men been called.

Conscientious Objectors

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is closely watching the daily conduct of the military service tribunals; whether anything more can be done to check the treatment, often accompanied with unseemly language, which is often meted out to conscientious objectors; and what steps he proposes, to take in cases where these quasi-judicial courts act in obvious defiance of the law they are set to administer?

My right hon. Friend is, of course, keeping in touch with the work of the tribunals. He cannot endorse the estimate of their work apparently held by the hon. Member. Cases may have occurred in which unseemly language has taken place, but I may perhaps be allowed to remind the hon. Member that newspaper reports are not always fair indications of what takes place.

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that Mr. W. A. Cooper and Mr. R. E. Pond, both schoolmasters, applied for complete exemption on conscientious grounds before their local tribunal, and were given exemption from combatant service only; that they appealed against these decisions before the South Staffordshire Appeal Tribunal on 24th March, their appeal being supported by a letter from their headmaster, A. H. Angus, who stated that he did not share their views, but would like exemption to be granted till the end of July for the sake of the boys who are taking Oxford local examinations; and that upon this testimony the military representative said that, if the men had attested or shown any desire to serve their country he would have been inclined to let them stay, but as they had not attested he wished to have them; and whether, seeing that the appeal was in both cases refused and leave to appeal to the Central Tribunal was also refused, he will say what action he proposes to take in view of the Military Service Act, 1916?

My right hon. Friend has made some inquiry in this case and he is informed that these two applicants were given a fair hearing. He cannot go behind the finding of the tribunal.

Absentees (Arrest)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that magistrates are refusing requests for a remand by or on behalf of men arrested as absentees under the Military Service Act, 1916, who have been arrested and immediately brought before the Courts; and, in view of the fact that in many oases there is doubt as to the legality of the military claim that these men come under the Military Service Act, 1916, will he issue a circular to the magistrates that in all such cases a remand must be allowed if asked for in order that a defence may be prepared?

The question whether a remand is desirable in the interests of justice must in each case be decided by the magistrates. I have no reason to suppose that they have been slow to use their discretion for this purpose in cases arising under the Military Service Act.

asked the Home Secretary on what grounds and by whose instructions the police arrested a man, named Burkle, residing at 65, Quicks Road, Wimbledon, as an absentee under the Military Service Act, 1916, who was taken to Kingston barracks, seeing that this man had received no notice calling him up, and why he was deemed to have been enlisted in such circumstances; if he was taken before a Civil Court before he was handed over to the military; if not, why the police did that without the authority of a Civil Court; and what action he has taken or proposes to take upon the action of the police?

The hon. Member has been misinformed. The man Burkle was not arrested by the police, nor was he taken by them to Kingston barracks nor handed over by them to the military.

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell me where he has derived that information, and on what authority he makes that statement?

Will the right hon. Gentleman make further inquiries, because I am in possession of facts which entirely contradict his statement?

If the hon. Member will be kind enough to send me his information I shall be glad to make further inquiries in the matter.

Compulsory Training for Europeans (India)

asked the Secretary for India what steps have been taken by the Government of India for the consideration of the pronouncement of the Bengal Chamber of Commerce in favour of compulsory military training for all Europeans in India?

The Government of India have informed me that they are not prepared at the present time to refer the subject matter of the memorial to a commission for inquiry and report; but they have taken steps to improve the efficiency of the Indian Volunteer Force by increasing the Government training grant.

Am I to understand that it practically comes to this, that the Europeans in India, through their Chamber of Commerce, are offering their services to the Government, and the Government of India and the Secretary of State are refusing to take advantage of those services?

No, Sir; it does not practically come to that. I can scarcely, in reply to a supplementary question of that kind, state the whole of the facts. The obligation upon the Volunteer Forces of India to serve at the present time is under very narrow restrictions. So far as I am aware no general offer of service thoughout India, or throughout the Empire, has been made by these Volunteer Forces.

British Expeditionary Forces (Pass Cards)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the privilege of pass cards printed in English, French, Italian, German, and Turkish, soliciting kindly treatment for members of corresponding societies, friendly and enemy, with whom the holders may come in contact, is limited to Freemasons in the British Expeditionary Forces abroad or is available to members of other societies in those forces who may desire it; what is the authority for giving this privilege to Freemasons; whether the kindness so asked is reciprocated in the treatment of German and Turkish Freemason prisoners captured by the British; in what the difference in treatment consists; and whether the appearance of partiality will be removed by making the privilege available to all soldiers?

I have made inquiries and find that nothing is known in the War Office of any privilege in regard to pass cards printed in various languages having been given to soldiers of the British Expeditionary Forces abroad either in the case of Freemasons or those who are not Freemasons. If there were any such privilege extended to Freemasons the question whether such privilege should be extended to any other society would depend upon the objects and character of the society for which the privilege was asked. But, as I have said, nothing is known of any such privileges being asked for or conceded.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that these cards are actually in use?

No, Sir; nothing is known of them at the War Office. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will communicate with me and send me one of the cards.

Mesopotamia Campaign

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War how many field officers of the Royal Army Medical Corps (India) have been promoted or decorated in connection with the Mesopotamia Campaign?

So far only two field officers of the Indian Medical Service have received rewards, but the lists of rewards so far published only cover the period up to the 15th April, 1915. There will shortly be some more, covering the period up to the end of September, 1915.

The right hon. Gentleman will notice that I ask about the Royal Army Medical Corps and not the Indian Medical Service?

asked the Secretary for India what is the effect of the new arrangements for the control of operations in Mesopotamia on the position and responsibility of the Government of India and the Secretary of State for India, respectively; and whether the War Office is now the Department of His Majesty's Government to which all questions relating to phases of the campaign subsequent to the 16th of February should be addressed?

Broadly speaking, the effect of the new arrangement is to leave unchanged the duties and responsibilities of the Indian authorities; but the Chief of the Imperial General Staff is substituted for the Secretary of State for India in all communications dealing with these operations, and, as stated by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of the War Office on 23rd March, the Chief of the Imperial General Staff issues instructions when necessary to the Commander-in-Chief in India in regard to Mesopotamia in exactly the same manner as to Commanders-in-Chief in other theatres of war. Questions in regard to the operations should now be addressed to the representative of the War Office.

British Invalid Prisoners (Internment in Switzerland)

asked the Under-secretary of State for War what progress has been made towards transferring British invalid prisoners of war to sanatoria in Switzerland?

As I have already informed the House, the internment of British and German invalid prisoners of war in Switzerland has been agreed to in principle, and the French Government has granted permission for the passage of German prisoners from the United Kingdom through their territory. The necessary details to give effect to the scheme are now being worked out.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any idea how long it will be? There is a good deal of anxiety in the country yet.

Did the right hon. Gentleman say "German prisoners"? The question relates to British invalid prisoners.

Yes, Sir. The idea is that British and German prisoners should equally be interned in Switzerland, the one in exchange for the other—it is not really an exchange; it is a joint arrangement.

Territorial Force

Second Reserve (Service) Battalion

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether any order has been issued to prevent an officer of a Second Reserve (Service) Battalion attached to a Territorial unit abroad from receiving temporary promotion?

No, Sir; no such order has been issued. Officers so situated are eligible for temporary promotion under the rules laid down.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the matter if particulars of the circumstances are submitted to him?

Queen Victoria Rifles

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether dissatisfaction prevails with regard to the manner in which transfers from one unit to another are being carried out; whether he is aware that men in the Queen Victoria Rifles who had not entered for foreign service did so before 2nd March on the distinct understanding that they would have the privilege of transferring to any unit they desired; that about eighty of these men had signified the units to which they desired to be transferred, and the transfers were well on the way to completion when they were cancelled and the men all transferred to the London Irish Rifles at Warminster; and whether he will have inquiries made into the matter and take steps to have the understanding on which the men signed for foreign service carried out?

I have answered several questions on this point to which I would ask my right hon. Friend to refer. These answers were given in reply to the hon. Members for North Somerset and for the Ealing Division on the 28th and 30th March.

Air Services

Anti-Aircraft Defences (Scotland)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether antiaircraft defences extend to Scotland; and whether they are considered adequate?

I answered yesterday a question put by my hon. Friend with reference to the Firth of Forth. To-day he puts the same question in regard to Scotland as a whole, and I am able to give him the same answer as I gave him yesterday, which I am sure he will consider satisfactory.

Could my right hon. Friend say whether any measures have been taken with regard to important points on the West of Scotland?

I have made it a rule— I think my hon. Friend will agree it is a good one—not to make any statement about definite points.

Civilian Schools of Aviation

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the principals and instructors of the civilian schools of aviation, who are doing work in the making and training of pilots, are being called up under the Military Service Act, 1916; do the War Office realise the value of these training establishments; and, if so, will he give an assurance that the position of these schools will be assured and action taken by the Government to enable them to continue their national work?

Principals and instructors of civilian schools of aviation will be called up under the Military Service Act and where possible placed in the Royal Flying Corps, if unmarried and not attested, unless they have received certificates of exemption or have applied for exemption to a local tribunal.

Does the right hon. Gentleman refuse to give an assurance to these civilians that they and the good work they are doing shall be recognised? Could they not be given some assurance in carrying on this work, which is of great value to the country at the present time?

It depends upon the value of the work being done. If it can be proved that they are doing good work, then I can give the hon. Gentleman the assurance for which he asks.

The returns of the private schools for the last twelve months compare very favourably—[Interruption].

East Coast Defences

asked the Under-secretary of State for War whether he has made inquiries and satisfied himself of the truth of the allegations respecting a dummy gun erected on the roof of a foundry in an East Coast city; has he discovered the name of the firm on whose premises the gun was set up; has he been informed of the material used in its manufacture; does he know where it was made; can he inform the House when it was removed and where it was burnt; can he give the number of soldiers who were told off to guard the gun during the time it was employed by the military; who was responsible for this hoax; and can he give the assurance that such a practice will not be repeated?

The hon. Gentleman has, presumably, in the course of his experience, heard of ruses de guerre. The object of such measures is to deceive the enemy, and if such a measure has been resorted to in this country its object would be to mislead the enemy's air scouts or agents and not to hoax the civil population. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will permit me to say that it is not always in the interests of the country to tear aside the veil.

Will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that once this trick of war has been exposed they will refrain from carrying it out again?

Does it help to deceive the enemy to have these discussions on the floor of the House?

Anti-Aircraft Gun Officers (Instructions)

asked the Under-Secretary for War whether, on the occasion of last Sunday's raid, a Zeppelin passed on two occasions within easy range of an anti-aircraft gun stationed in an Eastern county; if so, why was the gun not fired; why was no official warning given to the officer in command; and whether an officer is left without any discretion as to when he shall fire?

The Army Council are addressing to the hon. Member a letter inviting him to furnish particulars of the time and place at which the incidents mentioned are believed to have occurred.

Joint Air War Committee

asked the Under-Secretary for War whether he is yet aware that friction has arisen among the members of the Joint War Air Committee recently appointed by the Government; whether he is aware that the disputes and delays which have resulted have arrested all hope of progress; and can he say whether any members of the Committee have declared to their colleagues their intention to resign?

There are, of course, differences of opinion, but no friction whatever exists between members of the Joint Air Committee. I understand that two members have resigned.

Upavon Aviation Ground

asked on how many days flying was possible at Upavon in February and March; and whether he has considered the advisability of less exposed training grounds for aviation purposes?

The answer to the first part of the question is seventeen and twenty-six; and to the second part that many other training grounds are now in use.

National Policy

asked the Prime Minister whether the Cabinet has considered the future air policy of the country as a whole, apart from the requirements of either the Army or the Navy; and, if so, what decision has been arrived at?

I cannot agree with my hon. Friend that it is possible to consider this problem "apart from the requirements of the Army and Navy." His Majesty's Government give, as is their duty, constant attention to this as to all other problems arising out of the War.

Questions

Meat Supply (Military Forces in Ireland)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War the quantity and value of foreign grown meat supplied to the military in Ireland since the present War began; the estimated net saving, deducting the cost of carriage to Ireland, effected by supplying foreign as compared with Irish meat; to what extent, if any, preference is given to Home produced meat on account of its superiority; and to what extent, if any, a preference is given in consideration of the Home producers' share in the money that goes to pay their foreign competitors?

A small reserve of frozen meat is held in Ireland which has to be turned over periodically, but, apart from this, the troops in Ireland, since the beginning of the War, have received only Home produced meat. I hope that this assurance will satisfy my hon. Friend, and that he will excuse my attempting the elaborate calculations which his question suggests.

Naval and Military Services (Pensions and Grants)

asked the Under-Secretary for War if he is aware that, in the month of July, 1915, Private John O'Rourke, No. 19,947, A Company, 6th Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, allotted to his mother, Elizabeth O'Rourke, j of Farnasculloge, Lisnaskea, county Fermanagh, 6d. a day out of his military pay; that the Lisnaskea pension committee decided that 8s. 6d. per week (including the allotment) would be a fair allowance to Mrs. O'Rourke as a dependant of a soldier; and can he say why no allotment or allowance whatever has yet been paid by the authorities to Mrs. O'Rourke?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Treasury has announced that the assistance hitherto given from public funds towards the treatment in sanatoria of tuberculous cases amongst soldiers and sailors is to be withdrawn, and that this is to be undertaken hereafter by the Statutory Committee on Soldiers' and Sailors' Pensions; and whether the Government is prepared to grant to the Statutory Committee further funds for establishing and maintaining such sanatoria?

The arrangements hitherto existing have been purely temporary. The need for relief in these cases was urgent, but pending the setting up of the Statutory Committee there was no source other than public funds from which assistance could be given. It is proposed to entrust the work in future to the Statutory Committee, within whose province it would appear naturally to fall. No special addition to their funds is contemplated, as it is estimated that the number of cases will be small.

Am I to understand from the right hon. Gentleman's answer that meanwhile soldiers and sailors now employed suffering from this disease are to be deprived of treatment until the Statutory Committees can set up the machinery, which it is not in their power to do at the present moment?

For the moment the non-employed soldier or civilian can be dealt with by the local authorities. That is the normal practice. But there are certain local authorities which had no institution and no facilities for dealing with these cases, and pending the establishment of the Statutory Committees we gave grants, out of the public funds. Now, however, we hope that the Statutory Committees will undertake the work and there will be no further need for the grants.

Is it not the fact that only a very small minority of the local authorities have such an institution and that it will be utterly impossible for the Statutory Committee to set up anything in its place if this assistance is withdrawn?

My information is quite different, and I understand that the local authorities in a vast majority of cases have sanatoria.

asked the President of the Local Government Board if local committees are being formed in the county of Durham under the Statutory Committee for administering the Patriotic Fund; and, if not, will he hasten their formation, in order that hard cases may be promptly dealt with?

The Statutory Committee have communicated with the seven local authorities in the county of Durham who are entitled to frame schemes under the Naval and Military War Pensions, etc., Act. In six cases draft schemes have been forwarded to the Committee, and four of them have been approved. In the remaining cases the scheme is in course of preparation, and it is expected that it will be forwarded to the Statutory Committee early next week.

Time-Expired Men

asked the Under-Secretary for War whether married or single men who are fit for service are at present being discharged from the Regular or Territorial Forces as time-expired men?

Discharges in the conditions mentioned are taking place. Inducements are offered to such men to continue in the Service. So far as these inducements fail to secure the object in view, the only method of supplementing them would be by obtaining further statutory power from Parliament.

Will the right hon. Gentleman proceed at once to obtain these further powers? Can the country afford to let such men go at the present crisis?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a good deal of public anxiety and concern is being manifested as to the case of these perfectly young and active men who have served in the Territorials and are now time-expired?

It will be, of course, for Parliament to determine whether such powers shall be granted to the Government.

asked the Under-Secretary for War whether a decision has now been arrived at making the payment of bonus to time-expired Reservists retrospective?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave on this subject to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Ealing on the 21st March last.

Haulbowline (Discharges)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he has now obtained information with respect to the discharging of men with long service from the military department at Haulbowline and their work being done by military; and whether he will take steps to have the civilian workmen reinstated?

I have obtained and communicated to my hon. Friend the information for which he asks, and I am sure he will excuse me from repeating it here and now.

Officers' Training Corps

Transfers to Ranks

asked the Under-Secretary for War whether he is aware that young men joined the Inns of Court Officers' Training Corps with the view of obtaining commissions in Infantry regiments; that they were lately asked to submit themselves for examination for commissions in Artillery regiments and were turned down; that, after a slight examination lasting in some cases under a minute, some were also turned down and refused commissions in Infantry regiments; that they were thereupon told that they must join the Army as privates; that several Scotsmen wished to join Scottish regiments, Irishmen Irish regiments, and Welshmen Welsh regiments, but were told that they must sign applications for transfer to English regiments; and that many of them refused to do so; and whether he will cause inquiry to be made into the circumstances and give these young men, some of whom have been with the Officers' Training Corps for five months, a chance of joining a regiment of their own countrymen?

I dealt with this matter in Debate last night, and I cannot, I fear, now add anything to what I then said.

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of my question? I do not think he did so last night.

asked whether Irish members of the Officers' Training Corps who are being trained in Great Britain can be transferred against their will to English or Scottish regiments; and whether, though not ordinarily resident in Great Britain, they are liable to be called up under the Military Service Act, 1916?

Members of the Inns of Court or Artists Officers' Training Corps enlist in the Territorial Force, of which they become members. If they do not turn out suitable for commissions, they are transferred or attached to other Territorial Force units as non-commissioned officers or privates. As there are no Territorial Force Irish units, they can only be transferred to English, Scottish, or Welsh Territorial Force units.

Questions

War Office Contracts (Mills Equipment Company)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office, whether a firm with the title of the Mills Equipment Company, Limited, has any contracts in hand for the War Office; if so, whether inquiries were made as to the bona fides of the firm; whether he is aware that of the £50,000 capital of this company the Universal Patents Company, of Woonsocket, Rhode Island, United States of America, holds £37,550 of the shares; that the directorate of this latter company is composed of three persons, named David Froehlich, Emma E. B. Froehlich, and Samuel Froehlich, and that according to the company records of New York the company is dissolved; whether, in view of the names of these three directors, any inquiry has been or will be made as to whether they are alien enemies; and whether, having regard to this and the other facts relating to the Mills Equipment Company, steps will be taken to ascertain the character and standing of this firm of contractors?

The Mills Equipment Company, Limited, holds War Office contracts of considerable value. The usual inquiries, including an inspection of the firm's works, were made before the firm was noted on the War Office list. I am aware that the Universal Patents Company, of U.S.A., holds £37,550 of the Mills Equipment Company's shares. I am informed that the former company is still in existence, and that its directorate does not include any person of the name of Froehlich; but, in view of the statements in the question, I am causing further inquiries to be made into the matter.

Mediterranean Expeditionary Force (Steamship "Arragon.")

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether last year the large steamship "Arragon," lying off Mudros, was used for many months as the headquarters of the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief Mediterranean Expeditionary Force, or for portions of his staff; whether while used for that purpose the cost to the public represented by the ship and her running expenses was at least £50,000 a month; and whether, in the interests of economy and in view of the needs of tonnage, he will take steps to prevent a similar occurrence in the future?

The answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's question is in the affirmative. The total amount spent on hire and running expenses was only a fraction of the amount suggested. As regards the latter part of my hon. Friend's question, I do not think a similar situation is likely to arise again.

May I have the fraction, please? I have been told the sum that really was spent.

Eastern Command (London Headquarters)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Eastern Command, and his Staff are still in occupation of the buildings in Pall Mall, opposite Marlborough House; how much was spent in furnishing them and fitting them for military occupation; and whether, in the interests of economy, he will take steps to vacate these head quarters in one of the most expensive streets in London and secure premises at a less rent than £4,500 a year?

Yes, Sir; the Staff of the Eastern Command are still in occupation of the offices referred to, and, as I informed my hon. Friend on the 15th March, it is the only suitable accommodation which could be obtained sufficiently near at hand. The question as to the cost of furnishing and fitting up the premises is one that should be addressed to my right hon. Friend the First Commissioner of Works.

Does the hon. Gentleman really say that suitable headquarters could not have been obtained within a reasonable distance of the War Office?

I said it was the only suitable accommodation which could be obtained near at hand.

Undeveloped Land Duties

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether undeveloped land taxation is now payable on those assessments in respect of which demands were made for the years 1910–11, 1911–12, and 1912–13; and whether, in consideration of many persons having paid in respect of these assessments, it is intended either to demand payment of those who have been served with demands but who have not paid or to refund payments made to those who have paid moneys paid on a demand which has not been equally and impartially urged?

I can add nothing to the reply given to my hon. Friend on 28th March by my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary, beyond saying that there will be no eventual discrimination.

As we want money now, will the right hon. Gentleman take the matter in hand at once, with a view of getting from these people who are four or five years behind in their payments what money he possibly can?

Will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider the matter if I put a question down for a fortnight hence?

I am afraid that legislation of the kind suggested by the hon. Member would have very little chance of getting through the House.

Budget Proposals

Excess Profits Duty

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what rate of Excess Profits Duty will be payable by persons who become liable to that duty for the first time after 1st July, 1915?

I am not sure whether I precisely understand the contingency which the hon. Member has in mind, and it may be convenient if I explain my proposal as a whole. In the case of a business commenced before the outbreak of war, I propose that the 60 per cent. rate should begin to operate after the expiration of one year from the commencement of the first of its accounting periods to which the Excess Profits Duty applies. In the case of businesses commenced since the date of the outbreak of war, it will operate for accounting periods terminating more than a year after that date. The increased rate will apply for the computation not only of a charge of duty where excess profits are realised, but also of a set off or repayment where profits fall below the margin of liability.

Are we to understand that this demand is not retrospective as regards these particular cases?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) whether he intends, in taxing excess profits realised by the sale of profit-producing assets, to make the tax operate in the case of sales already completed; whether the tax will be levied notwithstanding the fact that the assets are continuing after the sale to produce profits, on which duty is levied, in the hands of the purchaser; and (2) whether it is proposed to include amongst profit-producing assets, the proceeds of the sale of which are to be brought into account for excess, profits, capital assets such as ships, even although the owner may be selling in order to buy another ship to take the place of the one sold?

I fear I cannot anticipate the contents of the Finance Bill, on which it will be open to the House to discuss the points raised in these questions.

Cider and Perry Duty

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the estimated yield in a full year of the proposed tax on cider and perry, and the estimated cost of collection; and if the tax will apply to cider made by farmers and supplied free to their workmen?

The yield in a full year is estimated at something over £100,000. The cost of collection is negligible. The tax will only apply to cider and perry sold or kept for sale.

Has the right hon. Gentleman estimated the reduction in the consumption of cider which will inevitably result from this tax?

Entertainments Tax

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether zoological gardens are to be treated as entertainments under the new Amusements Tax?

Zoological gardens, being exhibitions of wild animals, will, under the Definition of Entertainments in Clause 1 (5) of the Finance (New Duties) Bill, be liable to the Tax, but I will, of course, keep an open mind with regard to any representations which may be made to me on this matter before the Committee stage of the Bill.

Irish Products

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether, in addition to passing off as Irish bacon and Irish butter commodities which are not Irish, certain traders in Glasgow are now selling as Irish eggs the produce of other countries; and whether, in view of the prevalence of these practices whereby the genuine Irish products are brought into disrepute and profit realised in consequence of the difference in price, steps will be taken to put an end to this practice?

I am aware that in Glasgow the description "Irish" is sometimes falsely applied to eggs the produce of other countries. In such cases prosecutions under the Merchandise Marks Act are instituted, and recently a number of convictions have been obtained.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what sort of fines were imposed in these cases?

Certainly not without notice. I do not carry all these fines in my head.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that fines of £3 have been imposed, and that it pays these traders very well from one day's sales to make such payments?

I understand that the tribunals deal with them in a much more drastic manner if they are brought up a second time.

Is the right hon. Gentlemen aware that some people never come up a second time, and are able to make out that their brother or some other member of the company has been called?

Questions

Fishing (Breach of Admiralty Regulations)

asked the Lord Advocate if he will take into favourable consideration the cases of six Eyemouth skippers of motor boats who were fined £50 each at the Duns Court on 17th March last for breach of the Admiralty Regulations against fishing beyond the three-mile limit, as the penalty, with the alternative of thirty days' imprisonment, is out of proportion to the penalties usually imposed in such cases, the same week four North Shields skippers of steam trawlers being fined only £2 for a similar offence; and will he remit the excess punishment of the Eyemouth skippers?

As the result of inquiries which I have made it appears that the breaches of the Regulations were committed deliberately, after warning had been given in previous cases of a similar kind that more severe penalties would be imposed in future. For the offence in question a fine of £100 may be imposed, and, in view of the circumstances, I am not prepared to advise any remission of the penalties.

Hong Kong (German Firms)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies (1) whether the Government of Hong Kong has received from the local chamber of commerce representations both as to the time taken and the methods employed in liquidating the local German firms; what action has the Government taken in reply; and (2) whether, in view of the fact that a year is customarily regarded as a fair period for the liquidation of German firms, he will call the attention of the Colonial authorities in Hong Kong to the fact that this limit has been very largely exceeded already; and whether he will take steps to expedite the process?

The Government of Hong Kong has received representations, as suggested by the hon. Member, from the local chamber of commerce. Arrangements are now being made for carrying out, as far as local conditions admit, a complete liquidation of the enemy firms and a complete realisation of their assets, and the execution of this policy is being accelerated as much as possible.

Stornaway and Island of Lewis (Transport of Goods)

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the delay in the transport of goods for Stornoway, on the Highland Railway, and the continued congestion at Kyle of Lochalsh are causing hardship to the people of the island of Lewis; and will he take steps to have this grievance remedied?

I have communicated with the Highland Railway Company on the subject, and I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of their reply, from which he will see that the responsibility for the delay does not rest with the railway company.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if the Admiralty has commandeered the steamship store at Stornoway, which was the repository for goods shipped by the Langland line of steamers to Stornoway; that the Langland line steamers, because of this, no longer call there, and the town of Stornoway and the Island of Lewis are thereby deprived of a source of their food supply; and will he take what steps he can, consistent with the naval exigencies, to free part of the store for the accommodation of supplies necessary for the community?

The store refrerred to by my hon. Friend was requisitioned for naval purposes, and from local investigation at the time it appeared that the minimum of interference with local trade was secured by the appropriation of these particular premises. However, the possibility of freeing part of the store, as suggested in the last part of the question, is being inquired into.

Sinking of Steamship "Sussex."

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will now state how many persons, including crew, sailed on the "Sussex" on her last voyage; how many lifeboats were on the ship and what their total carrying capacity was; how many of these lifeboats were launched after the ship was struck; and how many were found unseaworthy owing to leaks or other causes?

We are in communication with the French Government with regard to the loss of this cross-Channel steamer, but I am not in a position to make any statement at present.

Foreign Newspapers Addressed to United Kingdom

asked the Prime Minister whether it is still considered necessary to maintain compulsory ignorance in this country by excluding all foreign newspapers and periodicals indiscriminately; and, seeing that enemy countries admit all without detriment to themselves, whether the Government will consider the advisability of allowing the free admission and circulation here of all publications from at least neutral countries?

No foreign newspaper, whether of neutral or enemy origin, addressed to the United Kingdom is stopped by the Censor except those newspapers which are published with the sole object of disseminating German falsehoods.

Defence of the Realm Act

asked the Prime Minister when he proposes to introduce a Bill to restore the right of personal liberty until forfeited on conviction of an offence proved according to law?

An identical question put by the hon. Member was answered on my behalf by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Munitions on the 22nd March. I have nothing to add to the answer he then gave.

Does or does not the right hon. Gentleman intend to introduce a Bill on this subject?

asked the Prime Minister whether it was his intention that the Defence of the Realm Act should be used to prevent the cultivation of the Gaelic language and literature in Ireland by punishing as criminals persons engaged in that work against whom no other charge has been made; and, if this was not his intention, whether, having regard to fines and imprisonment imposed in cases in which no other offence was alleged, he will at an early date introduce a Bill to amend the Act so that it cannot be used for that purpose?

The Defence of the Realm Act is not, and has not been, used to prevent the cultivation of the Gaelic language and literature in Ireland, and no persons have been punished for the use of the Irish language. Two persons named Chavasse and O'Conaire, both English-speaking people, refused to give in English certain information properly required by the police, thereby obstructing the police in carrying out the orders of the competent military authority. This constituted an offence against the Defence of the Realm Regulations, and for this offence proceedings were taken under those Regulations.

Was either of these men guilty of any offence whatever but that of answering a policeman in Irish?

Yes, Sir, as it was necessary to obtain from them information intelligible to the police, and as they knew English perfectly well—far better than they did Irish.

Royal Fleet Reserve (Discharge Gratuity)

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether men who have served in the Fleet and the Royal Fleet Reserve are entitled to a gratuity of £50 when discharged from the Service at forty years of age if they have completed twenty years' service; whether, in the present state of war, those men who are otherwise entitled to the gratuity but are not discharged are paid the gratuity; and, if not, will he state the policy of the Board on the matter?

Members of Class B of the Royal Fleet Reserve who enrolled in that force prior to 1st April, 1906, become eligible, on completing twenty years' combined service in the Active Service and Reserve and attaining the age of forty, for the award of a gratuity of £50, in lieu of claim to a pension of £12 a year for life at the age of fifty-five. Those who enrolled in that force on or after 1st April, 1906, are entitled to the gratuity of £50 on completion of twenty years' combined service, provided they have attained forty years of age. Men who complete time during hostilities will not receive the gratuity (which can only be awarded on discharge from the Reserve) while they are serving with the Fleet, retention of the men's services under the Royal Proclamation for the time being cancelling all ordinary rules under which discharge could be claimed.

London and Provincial Retail Newsagents' Association

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether the members belonging to the London and Provincial Retail Newsagents' Association are protesting against the method that is being adopted by the wholesale publishers on account of the increased cost of delivery, whilst at the same time the newsagents can only charge the face value of their goods; if Messrs. W. H. Smith and Sons have been sending out circulars to householders which will injure the newsagents; if the members of the London and Provincial Retail Newsagents' Association made an effort to start a co-operative supply and to employ only trade union labour, and although sufficient capital could have been raised to pay for the goods in advance, when they asked permission from the Treasury to raise the necessary capital permission was refused; and if he will state the reason why permission was refused?

The facts stated in the question correspond generally with those stated by the Association to the Committee on Fresh Issues of Capital, but I have no independent information on the subject. The proposed issue of capital was refused on the recommendation of the Committee after consultation with the Board of Trade because it was not considered that the circumstances were such as to justify an issue of capital at the present time, and it moreover appeared that the proposal would have led to a considerable duplication of labour and work upon a non-war service.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say under what Statute that Committee has derived its powers?

Have they, then, really the power to stop the issue of new capital to the shareholders of any existing company?

No, Sir; they have no power to stop the issue, but there are certain consequences which follow if they issue capital without permission.

One of the consequences, the only one I can recall to mind readily at the moment, is that the shares issued without their permission cannot be dealt in on the Stock Exchange.

Allied Conference in Paris

Prime Minister's Visit to Italy

asked the Prime Minister whether he proposes to make any statement for the information of the House on the results of the recent Allied Conference in Paris and on his visit to Italy?

It would not be desirable to make any detailed statement, beyond the information which has already been given to the Press, as to the various matters which came under discussion during the recent Allied Conference in Paris. The general results of that Conference, as was indicated in the resolutions which it adopted, were to reaffirm the entire solidarity of the Allies to establish the complete identity of their views, and to ensure perfect unity of action between them in the prosecution and conduct of the War.

My visit to Italy was signalised by a most striking manifestation of that traditional friendship between the Italian and British peoples, which their brotherhood in arms has served at once to demonstrate and to fortify. It would not, I think, be advisable that I should say more on the subject at the present moment.

Munitions

Men of Military Age (Government Departments)

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he can state the number of men of military age at present employed at the various offices of the Ministry of Munitions and what steps he is taking to release such men for service in the Army; will he say what steps he is taking to replace single men of serviceable age now employed in munition works with women or men not eligible for service; and whether it would be possible to replace single men with married men when single men are called up for service with the Colours?

A return is being prepared by the Treasury showing the number of men of military age at present employed in all Government Departments. As regards the second part of the question, inspectors are now engaged in visiting the firms to which war service badges have been issued with a view to the withdrawal of exemption from those men who can be replaced by women or other labour ineligible for military service. I should not be justified in holding out hopes that single men from whom exemption is withdrawn will be replaced by married men eligible for military service. The hon. Member must, of course, remember that the production of many munitions requires the labour of strong and able-bodied men.

Workers in Ireland

asked the Minister of Munitions how many men and women, respectively, in the area of Ireland south of a line drawn from Ballyshannon to Dundalk are employed on munitions of war and being paid wages in establishments which had not been making munitions of war previous to the creation of a branch of the Ministry of Munitions in Ireland?

The information desired by my hon. Friend is not available, and could only be obtained by imposing a good deal of work on the firms concerned, and on officers of the Department, who are already fully occupied. In the circumstances, I do not think it would be desirable to undertake the necessary inquiries.

Skilled and Unskilled Labour

asked the Minister of Munitions what proportion of the women and girls employed in connection with the making of munitions of war in Great Britain were skilled hands at any branch of the work before being employed by the Ministry; and of those who were not skilled hands, what was the average length of training they required in order to fit them to be usefully employed on munitions work?

About one-tenth of the women now employed on munition work were previously employed on similar occupations by firms engaged in the production of munitions. Of these, only a very few could be described as skilled. The length of time taken to train a woman varies in accordance with the work she has to undertake, but the majority are taken into factories without training. A woman could learn to operate most types of lathe in from fifty to 100 hours, and in many of the occupations on which women are employed they become usefully employed within a short time of entering the works.

Messrs. Boothe Brothers, Dublin (Delivery of Lathe)

asked the Minister of Munitions if he will advise Messrs. Boothe Brothers, of Dublin, of the result of his inquiries into the matter of their lathe which has been detained at Stockholm since August, 1915, so that they may know when to expect its delivery in Dublin?

Every effort has been made to expedite the delivery of the lathe in question, but I regret to state that it has not been possible to obtain its delivery. A communication is being sent to Messrs. Boothe Brothers, informing them of the position, and arrangements are being made by the Minister to supply another machine.

War Badges

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware that the Ministry of Munitions has refused to issue any war badges for technical clerks in the employment of J. Tylor and Sons, Limited, a controlled establishment under the Munitions of War Act, 1915; will he state how many war badges have been issued for technical clerks in other controlled establishments in England and why has the issue of any such badges been refused in the case of J. Tylor and Sons, Limited; and is he aware that on 5th April the tribunal at Spring Gardens refused any exemption to one technical clerk employed by this firm and granted only six weeks' exemption in the case of another, refusing leave to appeal against this decision, although the fact that the firm was a controlled establishment was brought to the notice of the tribunal and the military representative offered no opposition in Court to complete exemption being granted in both cases?

War service badges have been issued to six clerks and ten officials in the employment of this firm, but their application was refused in respect of four unmarried clerks, all below the age of twenty-one. I regret that I cannot undertake to have a return compiled of the number of technical clerks in similar establishments who have received badges. I have no information as to the decision of the tribunal referred to in the question.

asked the Minister of Munitions why the badges promised to Messrs. Sandham Brothers, of Chorley, who are engaged on important contracts for the Ministry and on other important war work, have not been supplied, seeing that the order for the supply was issued so long ago as the 21st of February last; and, as a number of their indispensable men are under the liability to be taken away almost immediately under the Military Service Act, 1916, which makes it impossible for the firm to carry out their war contracts, will he take steps at once to have the badges delivered?

This application has been carefully considered, and a portion of the badges for which the firm applied is being issued to them. There is no foundation for the suggestion that an order for their issue was given on 21st February.

Was not a promise given on 21st February that they would be issued, and is it not a fact that in consequence of this question badges have already been received by the firm?

Is it not a fact that as a result of these questions having been put on the Paper the firm is now in possession of badges after waiting several weeks?

Is the Minister of Munitions likely to respond to pressure in the same way on other subjects?

Messrs. Vickers' Works (Erith)

asked the Minister of Munitions whether Messrs. Vickers recently took one or two votes or canvasses among their women workers at Erith to ascertain their preference for an eight or a twelve-hour shift; whether either of these ballots was secret; if two ballots were taken what the object of the second ballot was; and whether the results of both ballots were sent to the Ministry?

I understand that no official ballot or canvass was taken, and the answer to the hon. Member's question is, therefore, in the negative. The firm, however, state that they understand that a ballot was arranged by the women workers amongst themselves, as a result of which two of the girls, one of whom is a local official of the National Federation of Women Workers, waited on the foreman of the shell department, who is in charge of both the shops concerned, and stated that the great majority of the girls were desirous that a change should be made from a three to a two-shift system. No information concerning this meeting was received by the Ministry. I should add that before instituting the change the firm fully explained it at a meeting of their workers.

Is it not a fact that the girls thought they were being canvassed on behalf of the firm, and were afraid to state openly that they were against the twelve-hour shift?

I do not know what the girls thought. They were canvassed by the other girls.

Independently of what they think, is it desirable that this House should permit girls to work in twelve-hour shifts?

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the only organisation representing the girls, the National Federation of Women Workers, is strongly opposed to this change, and the girls were members of this organisation?

I understand it was before the Board of Trade on a question of arbitration.

What is the use of the Committee's Report if its recommendations are ignored?

My hon. Friend is under a misapprehension. If he reads the Report of the Committee he will see they cannot go outside their reference.

Is the hon. Gentleman prepared to send an official to take a proper ballot of the girls, to see whether they will go back to the eight-hour shift?

I hope he will do so at once, because, as far as my information goes, they are dissatisfied.

asked the Minister of Munitions if Messrs. Vickers, of Erith, urged on his Department that they were not getting enough work out of the girls and young women employed by them, or not making sufficient profit out of their labour, as an excuse for making the alteration in the working hours from eight hours to twelve; and, whether, seeing that owing to the necessities of sexual economy it is impossible that young women and girls should be employed on such work for twelve hours in the day without serious injury to their health, he will revert to the eight-hours shift at the earliest possible moment?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. As regards the second part, I have already stated that the experiment will be carefully watched. There are, of course, arrangements for women to obtain leave on grounds of health whenever it is necessary.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware, as a distinguished medical man, that it is absolutely impossible for a woman to work twelve hours on end without very great injury to her health?

Questions

Internment of Miss Hilda Howsin

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will say where Miss Hilda Howsin is now imprisoned or interned; whether her friends have permission to visit her; whether she has been furnished with a report of what the Attorney-General recently said in this House regarding her; whether she is allowed to obtain legal advice; and why the option of a civil trial given by the Defence of the Realm Act to British-born subjects is denied to Miss Howsin?

The lady referred to is interned at the place of internment, Aylesbury; she is allowed to receive visits subject to the rules of the establishment; she has seen the newspaper reports of the Debate in this House on 23rd March; her only application for legal assistance has been granted. In answer to the last part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the statement which I made on 2nd March during the discussion on the Vote on Account.

Motor Omnibus Conductors (Hours of Labour)

asked the Home Secretary if he will ascertain how many hours per day girls and young men are employed as conductors on motor omnibuses, at what time their duties commence in the morning, what times are allowed for meals, and when their duties for the day are ended?

I am informed that, generally speaking, the hours for women and men are practically identical, and vary from nine to twelve hours per day. The earliest shifts begin work at six a.m., and the latest finish at midnight. The times off duty also vary from about forty minutes to four hours. I understand that the majority of the women do not work more than four or five days a week.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that according to the French papers received this morning our Allies have come to the conclusion that more than eight hours a day for women is absolutely impossible and unjustifiable?

Food Production (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland the amount of untenanted land distributed in the ranching counties of Westmeath, Meath, Kildare, and King's County since the War began, in pursuance of the policy of increased tillage and food production?

In the period referred to the Estates Commissioners have distributed 7,373 acres in counties mentioned in the question, namely, 220 in Kildare, 517 in King's County, 4,145 in Meath, and 2,491 in Westmeath.

Land Purchase (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he will say how many agricultral tenants remain in Ireland who have not purchased their holdings, and whether, seeing that this condition is not their fault, what action the Government intend to take with regard to them; whether, with a view to dealing with them promptly after the War, the Estates Commissioners and staff, now idle from the suspension of land purchase, will add to their forthcoming Report a table showing for each county the number of tenants who signed purchase agreements each year so far back as such cases are not yet vested, and the number who are not known to the Commissioners to have been offered any terms of purchase; and whether the Report will be issued soon and will end with the year just ended, instead of following the recent irregular practice of delaying and dealing imperfectly with part of the coming year?

Lands returned in the agricultural statistics as agricultural lands include lands which cannot or possibly will not form the subject of proceedings for sale under the Land Purchase Acts—for instance, large holdings and demesne lands the purchase money of which would exceed the statutory limits of advances, lands in the neighbourhood of cities and towns, market gardens, lands already held in fee simple by the occupiers, and allotments under the Labourers Acts—and it is not possible to give the particulars asked for in the first part of the question. Not only is a large number of the staff of the Estates Commissioners serving with His Majesty's Forces, but the staff has otherwise been reduced considerably since the commencement of the War, and the Commissioners are not in a position to compile tables of the nature suggested in the question. The Annual Reports of the Commissioners are prepared in the prescribed form, and these Reports include proceedings up to the 31st March in each year, which is the end of the financial year. The Report of the Commissioners for the year ending the 31st March last will be compiled and presented as soon as practicable.

India (Economic Resources) Commission

asked the Secretary of State for India whether the territories of ruling chiefs will be included within the ambit of the inquiries made by the India (Economic Resources) Commission?

The inquiry is intended to extend to British India only, but I imagine that if any native State should express a wish to have the advice of the Commission, the Government of India would offer no objection.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some of the territories of native States are rich in mineral deposits, and that, therefore, it is extremely desirable that this inquiry should extend to them?

Yes, Sir; but this is an inquiry with regard to British India and as to what assistance the Indian Government may properly give for the development of industries in its own immediate territory. As to the development of industries in native States, the question of the amount of State aid to be given is one for the Governments of those States.

Saddlery Contracts (Walsall)

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether tender form 0149/4101 (Contract 1 L) for the supply of saddlery, due to be returned on the 31st of March, was issued to all firms in Walsall applying for the same; and, if not, will he state the reason for discriminating between them?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. It is not the practice of the Department to issue tenders indiscriminately to all firms applying for them without regard to their record or capabilities.

Bill Presented

Municipal Savings Banks (War Loan Investment) Bill,—"to facilitate the investment of Savings in securities issued for the purpose of the present War by means of the establishment of Municipal Savings Banks," presented by Mr. MONTAGU; supported by Mr. Hayes Fisher; to be read a second time Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 20.]

Message from the Lords

That they have agreed to,

Army (Annual) Bill, without Amendment.

Orders of the Day

Imperial Institute (Management) Bill

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 1.—(Transfer from Board of Trade to Colonial Office of Management of Imperial Institute.)

(1) All property, real or personal, and all rights or obligations, and all debts or liabilities, which were transferred to the Board of Trade under the principal Act or which have become the property, rights, obligations, debts or liabilities of the Board of Trade in pursuance of that Act, shall become the property, rights, obligations, debts, or liabilities of the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and the Secretary of State for the Colonies for the time being shall have any powers necessary to enable him to hold any such property.

(2) Sections three and seven of the principal Act (which relate to the application of property and to powers of management) shall have effect as if the Secretary of State for the Colonies were substituted for the Board of Trade, and as if property transferred to the Secretary of State for the Colonies under this Act were substituted for property transferred to the Board of Trade under that Act.

(3) The Secretary of State for the Colonies shall be substituted for the Board of Trade in Sections four and five and in Sub-section (3) of Section nine of the principal Act (which relate to the Imperial Institute Building and the Endowment Fund, and to the Imperial Institute Trustees).

(4) The Advisory Committee appointed under Section eight of the principal Act shall be abolished, and there shall be established for the purpose of carrying on the management of the Imperial Institute under the Secretary of State for the Colonies an Executive Council constituted in accordance with the provisions of the Schedule to this Act.

Sub-sections (1) and (2) of Section eight of, and the Third Schedule to, the principal Act are hereby repealed and the Executive Council shall be substituted for the Advisory Committee in Section five, in Sub-section (3) of Section eight, and in Sub-section (3) of Section nine of the principal Act.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2 ( Short Title )ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule

1. The Executive Council shall consist of twenty-five members, appointed as follows:—

By the Board of Trade

Two.

By the Secretary of State for India

Two.

By the President of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries

One.

By the Government of India

One.

By the Government of the Dominion of Canada

One.

By the Government of the Commonwealth of Australia

One.

By the Government of the Union of South Africa

One.

By the Government of the Dominion of New Zealand

One.

By the Government of Newfoundland

One.

By the Secretary of State for the Colonies

Fourteen.

2. The term of office of a member of the Executive Council shall be three years.

3. The members of the Executive Council shall retire on the expiration of their term of office, and their offices shall be filled by fresh appointments in accordance with the foregoing provisions of this Schedule.

4. A casual vacancy occurring in the office of any member of the Executive Council by death, resignation, or other wise, shall be filled by appointment in manner directed by the foregoing provisions of this Schedule as respects the member whose office is vacant; but the member so appointed shall hold office only so long as the member whose office is vacant would have held office.

5. A retiring member may be re appointed.

6. The Executive Council may act not withstanding any vacancy in their number.

I beg to move in paragraph 1, in the line "By the Secretary of State for India … Two," to leave out the word "Two," and to insert instead thereof the word "Four."

I have put down this Amendment in order that the question of the representation of India may be ventilated. India is in point of fact the only Empire included within the British Empire, and, therefore, it is particularly desirable that on an Imperial Institute Bill the requirements of India should at least receive special notice. I understand the opinion is held by the Government that a larger number than twenty-five should not be appointed upon the governing body. There is not the same reason for limiting the numbers in regard to this governing body as is held in other quarters, for instance, in regard to the case of the twenty-two members of the Cabinet. There need not necessarily be any objection to an increase, and if the Minister in charge of the Bill were to assent to the increase which my Amendment provides, there would be, amongst other things, a very useful patronage provided for the Secretary of State for India. I understand that it is an open secret that every Civil servant in India who has attained a certain position is anxious to be appointed a member of the Council of the Secretary of State. It would be most convenient, I think, if the Secretary of State were able to say, "I cannot give you a seat on my Council, but I will appoint you to the governing body of the Imperial Institute." My right hon. Friends regard this as not quite a serious argument, but I can remember the reply which was made by Pitt to the request of a prominent politician for a key to the Green Park, that he could not have what he wanted, but that the Minister applied to would be happy to get him an Irish peerage. I submit that this is a parallel case. In all seriousness there is really no reason why provision should not be made for a somewhat more enlarged representation of India, which, according to my Amendment, it would fall to the Secretary of State for India to apportion. The Imperial Institute is now under the Colonial Office, not as a matter of statutory arrangement, and it is in order to legalise what is the actual position that this Bill is introduced. But the fact that it is under the Colonial Office leads, perhaps, to some disposition on the part of the Colonial Secretary to consider that the institution which is under his control may properly be represented rather largely by his nominations.

I believe that the substitution of the governing body for the Advisory Council is a move in the right direction. For my part I am in favour of the Bill as a whole. I look forward, as I believe other Members do, to an extended use of the Institute to fulfil a very great function in the economic development of the Empire. But it should be remembered that out of the original contribution of £426,000, India contributed £114,000, plus £32,000 special donations, making a total of £146,000, while the Colonial Governments contributed only £64,000, the United Kingdom contributing £247,000. This really makes a very strong case, though I do not for a moment suggest that the contributions towards the erection of the building are conclusive, because naturally contributions for keeping it going are at least of equal if not of more importance. Still it is relevant to consider that India contributed such a large proportion of the initial cost of this great institution, which, without its aid, probably never would have been established. Also the initial annual Grant of the Government of India was £1,000 a year for five years, and this contribution has been paid right through from the commencement, while there are two other Grants, for the scientific and technical information branches, of £200 respectively. Some time after the institution was founded the Secretary of State pressed for an extra Grant of £800. I am not here to suggest that the Government of India has not been fairly treated about this matter, but there has been a little disposition to press them, and I think that they have been doing quite as much as was fair from the beginning, and their interests should on all occasions and on this occasion receive the most careful attention. At the time when the Institute was founded and this Grant was given there was a special Indian Committee, maintained separately by Indian revenues. That was made over in 1907, and the Indian Committee was dissolved, and a representative of India was added to the managing committee, which also contained representatives of the Colonial Office. In 1895 I see that India asked for a sub-committee of five representatives on the governing body, while, according to the Bill which is under consideration, India will receive in all only three. I think that as India at one time asked for three members of the governing body, four representatives of chambers of commerce, six of provincial Governments, and two of native States, it is fair that I should raise this question in order, at any rate, that it may be made clear to the Committee that this whole arrangement has been made in concert with the Secretary of State for India and also with due consideration to the large claims of India, which provided 40 per cent of the original subscriptions.

My hon. Friend will be able to tell me, that which I do not know, to what extent the Colonies contribute towards the present expenses. I think that I am in order in asking this because my point is that the representation of India should bear some relation to the proportion which India and the Colonies contributed not only towards the initial expenditure, but also to the upkeep of this great institution. I submit that it is perfectly in order to point out that there are only six countries in the world the trade of which is greater than that of our Indian Empire, that it is equal to that of Canada and South Africa combined, and that it is greater than that of Australia, South Africa, and New Zealand combined. That fact, I submit, is entirely relevant to the Amendment which I am venturing to place before the Committee. Indian trade is 15 per cent. of the whole trade of the British Empire. Therefore, in regard to the institution which is particularly designed to foster and increase the trade of the country, the Indian Government is entitled to the special consideration which I am quite sure my hon. Friend will be able to show that it is receiving. One other point. My hon. Friend the Member for the University of London (Sir P. Magnus) dwelt upon the necessity for a closer connection between the Imperial Institute and the Universities. I need not say—

I have allowed the hon. Member a great deal of latitude. He seems to be making a Second Reading speech. We are now in Committee. His Amendment is simply to alter the number appointed by a certain authority, and he is not entitled on that Amendment to review the whole Bill.

I had really done, but I thought that it was relevant to the Amendment to show the reasons underlying the Amendment and my claim for more representatives. I am sanguine that the Minister in charge will be able to show that the requirements of India have been fully considered and that the representation will be practically in some way supplemented so as to make it unnecessary for me to proceed with the second Amendment to somewhat the same effect which I have placed on the Paper.

I would like, for all the reasons stated by my hon. Friend (Sir J. D. Rees), to support the Amendment. I shall not restate the reasons for my doing so, because they have been so clearly and logically stated by the Mover of the Amendment. India is so vast a country, with such immense populations, varying according to the different provinces, and contains so many materials on which the Imperial Institute and its advisers and other bodies are continually at work that there can be no harm, so far as I can see, in having four members to represent it; indeed, I think there would be a great deal of advantage in it, because they would bring their varied knowledge of the different countries which go to make up the meaning of the word "India." There are many things in India with which the Imperial Institute must deal, and to a large extent they are, if not peculiarly Indian, at all events the products of that vast country. I refer to such things as manganese, and metals such as wolfram and tungsten, which come from some of the out-of-the-way districts; besides that, there are vast forests in India from which are obtained materials used for dyes. All these things are very necessary for the Imperial Institute, and therefore I support the proposal for four members rather than two, and I hope it will commend itself to the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill and that he will make this little concession.

May I speak to the Amendment which I have on the Paper now, Sir, or has it to be taken separately?

The hon. Member's Amendment, I see, is in line 8. Yes, I think that is also an appointment by the Government of India, and I think we may discuss it now.

If the answer I receive from the Government is at all satisfactory I may state that I do not propose to move the second Amendment standing in my name.

The Amendment which I have put down and which I am going to move is to deal with a matter in respect of which I think the Government of India has been unfairly treated and their claims not properly met. The Amendment I move, Sir—

Can my hon. and gallant Friend move a second Amendment before the first one has been disposed of?

The hon. and gallant Gentleman cannot move another Amendment while there is still one under discussion. I understand that the hon. Gentleman wished to say what he had to say on the first Amendment now before the Committee.

I will not move my Amendment, and I will say now what I have to say. When one looks at this Bill and sees that the Government of India has only one representative, while the Government of Canada has one, Australia one, South Africa one, New Zealand one, and Newfoundland one, I think everyone, when they look at the dimensions and populations of the respective countries, India having 315,000,000 inhabitants, and Newfoundland 250,000 inhabitants—only a quarter of a million—will see that the representation which is given to India cannot be considered a fair representation. Take the question of population. Canada has a population of over 7,000,000, Australia 4,500,000, New Zealand a little more than 1,000,000, South Africa 7,000,000, Newfoundland 250,000—a total population for these countries of about 20,000,000. Bengal alone has 45,000,000, Bombay 20,000,000, Madras 40,000,000 odd, the United Provinces 47,000,000 odd, the Punjaub 20,000,000, and Bihar and Orissa another 35,000,000. Each one of these provinces should have representation on this Committee equal to that given to New Zealand or Australia. You cannot treat India as one country; it is an enormous continent, and each of these provinces of India is more important in a commercial sense than any of these separate Dominions. I am astonished that India should have been treated so unfairly in this matter. I submit that each Presidency of Bombay, Madras and Bengal, should have its representation, and the other three provinces should also have representation, so that they would have six members to represent India instead of one. I ask the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill to give fair consideration to the claims of India in this matter, and to give the various provinces larger representation.

In reply to the Amendment of the hon. Member for Nottingham, I think the Committee may be quite well assured that the last wish of those who are responsible for introducing this Bill is in the least degree to underestimate the importance of India. I would, however, just remind the Committee that although, for certain purposes, a distinction is to be drawn between the two members in the Schedule whom it is proposed that the Secretary of State for India should nominate, and the one nominated by the Government of India, yet, for broad practical purposes, it does mean, even in the-Schedule of the Bill as it stands, that there are three members who represent India. As I said, for certain purposes, no doubt, a distinction ought to be drawn between them, and to that extent I quite agree with the hon. Member who has just spoken. I would, in the first place, ask the Committee to bear one or two points in mind in this connection. The first is, that in the original settlement in 1902 it was then agreed and accepted that the Government of India should have three representatives on an Advisory Committee of eighteen. Of course, in the Schedule of this Bill, the representation is not quite so great in proportion, and we recognise very fully the force of the arguments which have been brought forward by the hon. Member for Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees), by the hon. Member for Roxburghshire (Sir J. Jardine), and the hon. and gallant Member opposite (Colonel Yate).

4.0 P.M.

Precisely similar representations have been made on behalf of India by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for India. Therefore, if the Committee will agree with it, what we would propose to do is to give India a larger representation than is indicated by the Schedule, and to attain the same point which the hon. Members have in mind by a different, and, if I may say so, I think a better way, under the circumstances. It has been suggested that Civil servants who come home from India should be added to the number of members, but I think the number would eventually become so huge that even the hon. Baronet himself would object to the Executive Council being swollen to such an extent. At present the total number is twenty-five, of which the representation of India is to be three. It really is not, on the whole, advisable to increase the number above twenty-five. Criticism has already been made on the largeness of the number. Out of the twenty-five representatives some of the representatives are already taken, with general agreemnt by th Board of Trade, so that in the Schedule as it stands, of the remaining twenty-two members, five go to the self-governing Dominions and fourteen to the Secretary of State for the Colonies. It seems, in the first place, a largish number, out of which, perhaps, one further member might be elected by India. It is just that point which I would ask the Committee to look into. Out of that fourteen provision has got to be made for a number of different interests and for certain kinds of representation which are quite indispensable. I merely give an outline of the plan underlying the Schedule. Out of those fourteen it is necessary, as at present, to have two members of the Colonial Office. It is most desirable, as I think every Member present will admit, to have the Director of the Imperial Institute as a member of the Executive Council. Some continuity with the present work has really to be maintained, and it would be a very great waste, as I think will be generally agreed, if the services of Lord Islington were not preserved to the new Excutive Council, with a least one other member of the present Advisory Committee. It is, I think, equally advisable that we should have on that Executive Council a member, and a prominent member, of the Chambers of Commerce, in order to keep in touch with authoritative representation of British commerce and industry. As hon. Members are already aware, there is now a Committee of the Privy Council, dealing with matters of education throughout the Empire, and quite properly there ought to be a link with that Committee, which again would account for one member. I am talking provisionally, but quite openly, as I think the Committee would really like to know the ideas underlying the whole of the scheme. That leaves seven members unallocated. I would ask the Committee to realise what the interests are for which we have to provide as well.

I do not for a minute wish to depreciate the enormous value that the Imperial Institute ought to be to India, and equally the work of the Institute ought to be available or made available to the different self-governing Dominions. But in the last resort India has got institutes which can carry out technical researches for it, and also put it into communication with the different branches of industry, and so, also, with the self-governing Dominions. So that, though the Institute ought to be really useful and important, both as regards India and the self-governing Dominions, it is really quite vital in connection with the Crown Colonies. During the whole of the past few years it has carried out a number of investigations for the great Crown Colonies, especially the newer Colonies in West Africa and East Africa, and unless they had the Imperial Institute to look to, it is very hard to see where they could get their technical investigations carried out, or by what other means they could be put into communication with the various great industries in this country which are the natural and proper users of the raw material which they produce. That has been true with regard to fibre and with regard to rubber and products of that kind, and it has been true with regard to oil nuts and oil seeds from the West Coast of Africa. Therefore, out of that remaining unallocated portion of the Secretary of State's nomination, you have really got to provide for a proper representation of the Crown Colonies. I merely add one word more. Not only has one got to provide in this Council generally for India and the self-governing Dominions and the Crown Colonies, but, if the work of the Imperial Institute is to be really vigorous and successful, it has got to be put into communication and kept in active communication with the various great commercial users of the raw material in the industries in this country. For that reason it is desirable to have on the Executive Council people who are prominent in connection with British industry and who can form that link in the chain. We have, indeed, one member representing the chambers of commerce, but—and this will appeal at once to Scottish Members—Scotland is a very important user of raw material from the Dominions and India and the Colonies, and it would be very desirable to have some connecting link with some of the great industries and commercial centres in Scotland, and so, too, with different part of England, and so forth.

Consequently the amount of representation for which we have got to provide out of the fourteen members who, under the Schedule, are nominated by the Secretary of State for the Colonies is very large. The difficulty has been very carefully considered, and, to meet the claims of India and yet satisfy other interests, the following arrangement has been devised: It is that there should be an understanding, a definite understanding, between the Secretary of State for India and the Secretary of State for the Colonies to the effect that out of the nominations which stand here in the name of the Colonial Secretary one person should be such as is approved of by the Secretary of State for India and by the Indian Government—approved, that is to say, as a really good and adequate representative of Indian interests. He may be able to fulfil other functions in the representation as well, and so, by his thus taking a dual capacity, we can adequately deal with the whole of the objects which we wish to secure. Consultation has been made with the Secretary of State for India and that has been definitly approved of by him as a fair way of meeting the difficulty. It will really provide India with a fourth representative, though he may fulfil other functions as well. In addition to this fourth member it is to be hoped that Lord Islington's presence will for the time being give yet further representation for India.

Why not put Lord Islington in as one of the nominees of the Secretary of State for India and give his place to another representative for India?

That will be considered. I mean there is no bar under the Schedule to an arrangement of that kind. I would only point out that Lord Islington, who at the moment is Under-Secretary of State for India, is in addition to the fourth Indian representative who is agreed upon between the India Office and the Colonial Office. I hope, in view of that explanation, that the hon. Member will not press his Amendment, and that agreement may be arrived at upon that understanding. It is contemplated that the work of the Executive Council should be carried out by a number of special committees dealing with special objects, and it has always been intended that there should be a special sub-committee dealing with Indian affairs which will also, I think, provide that the commercial interests of India should be quite properly safeguarded.

Are we to understand that the Government of India may have two representatives instead of one?

If I may make the matter quite plain, it is that without being actually placed on the Schedule by agreement with the Colonial Office a representative chosen would command the assent and approval of the Government of India.

And in additon to that there will be two under the heading of the Government of India.

There will be those under the Schedule and one approved by the Government of India and Lord Islington as well.

What I would suggest is, that Lord Islington should come under the heading of the Secretary of State for India and that the Government of India should be given two representatives.

I think if the hon. and gallant Member will look through the matter he will find that does not really simplify the representation.

Lord Islington is one of the nominations of the Secretary of State for the Colonies.

I hope that what I have suggested will be accepted as adequate in the end. I think that when one has got to consider the representation of various kinds, including the Crown Colonies, which do not always appear to the mind at the outset, that it will be found that we have done our best to provide fairly for all the interests which are really vitally concerned.

I think that the Under-Secretary of State has certainly thrown new light upon the different interests that have to be represented. I do not agree with my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion. In asking leave to withdraw I wish to enter this caveat, that the member who I is going to be appointed, not specifically, but practically representing India, should have Indian experience, and he must have that, and I think probably he would be a better representative if he enjoyed other experience, and I therefore quite accept the suggestion.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in paragraph 1, in the line "By the Secretary of State for the Colonies … Fourteen," after the word "Fourteen" to insert the words "of whom one shall be a member of the governing body of the Imperial College of Science and Technology and one a member of the Senate of the University of London"

I quite recognise with the small number of members at the disposal of my right hon. Friend that it is very difficult to assign two members, one to each of those two institutions. At the same time, personally, I cannot help thinking that our Colonies, or even India, may be as well represented by one member as by two or three. I never think that representation of an interest depends upon the number of persons who are to represent that interest. What one wants is the views of the body which is represented, and those can be as well given by one member as by two or three. I do not propose to repeat the remarks which I made on the Second Reading of the Bill. The Imperial Institute and the Imperial College of Science and Technology must be, or should be, regarded as sister institutions. They are both Imperial in character and each can supplement the work of the other. The Imperial Institute has done and is doing a large amount of good scientific work, but that scientific work might be greatly increased and developed if the Institute stood in close connection with the Imperial College of Science and Technology, which stands on the opposite side of the road. There are laboratories there which could be placed at the disposal of the director of the Imperial Institute and the scientific staff, and the researches now being carried on might be developed to a considerable extent if there were much closer co-operation between the College and the Institute. Therefore, it seems to me that it would be greatly to the advantage of the Institute that such association should be established. Further than that, I think it would be a great advantage to the Imperial College, because the Imperial Institute possesses collections of material which are quite unique, and are not to be found, possibly, in any other part of the world. It is most desirable, in all cases, that such a museum as the Imperial Institute possesses should be in close connection with a teaching institution, such as the Imperial College, which has Imperial objects. Therefore, there seems to be every reason why these two bodies should be closely associated.

I think it is also desirable that the Imperial Institute should be more closely associated than it is with the London University, for two reasons. The first is that the Imperial College is a school of the University—that is to say, the students of the college, who would have the benefit of the collections and exhibits of the Imperial Institute, are required to take their degree at the University of London under conditions more or less settled by the University. Therefore it is very desirable that the Institute should be associated with the University. The second reason is that the Imperial Institute and the University are housed in the same building. It does not always happen that those who are the nearest neighbours are in the end the best friends. Possibly that has been the case with regard to the Imperial Institute and the University. Also it very often happens that when those who are not the best of friends come to work together their differences become lessened, and by a certain amount of mutual concession they are able to work together for the benefit of the common good. For these reasons—I could give many others—I think it might be arranged that two of the fourteen members to be nominated by the Secretary of State for the Colonies should be taken, one from the Imperial College and one from the University. If it is found that these places are already allocated, I can see no particular reason why the number should not be sixteen instead of fourteen. There seems to be nothing sacred about the number fourteen, and if, in order to bring about this important amalgamation it is necessary to increase the number, I think it would be an advantage. In any circumstances, I sincerely hope that the Secretary of State for the Colonies, if he is unable to accept my Amendment, will in some way arrange that at least two of the members whom he has to nominate shall be selected, one from the University of London and one from the Imperial College.

The proposal just made will, I am sure, convince the hon. Member for Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees) of the difficulty which there really is in providing adequate representation even out of the comparatively generous number of fourteen. I hope the hon. Member for London University (Sir P. Magnus) will not press his Amendment now. It was the first I had heard of it—

The hon. Member can rest assured that in devising the representation the point which he has brought forward will be carefully considered. I hope he will be content with that, and not press his Amendment or for any definite pledge on the subject. There is really less reason for the Amendment in that already the Imperial Institute and the Imperial College of Science and Technology do co-operate for many purposes. The collections in the Imperial Institute are already used by the College, and the director of the Imperial Institute is acting in many respects in friendly co-operation with the authorities of the College. I referred just now to the Committee of the Privy Council which is dealing with the question of scientific research generally. So far as research is concerned that will help to form a connection. In any case, supposing it is found really necessary to provide for some definite machinery for co-operation between the two institutions, it will be quite possible to have some definite sub-committee appointed for the purpose. One is an institution peculiarly for research and the other is an institution particularly for education, and it would be quite possible by means of some joint committee to arrange for proper co-operation between them. If, therefore, in appointing the members sufficient care is taken in regard to the point raised by the hon. Member, I hope he will be content with that and not press the Amendment.

I am quite willing to withdraw the Amendment after what my hon Friend has said, but I shall attach considerable importance, I do not say to the pledge, but to the sort of understanding that efforts will be made to establish as close a connection as possible between the two institutions, because although one is mainly connected with research and the other is mainly concerned with education, I think it is most desirable that education and research should go hand in hand.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Schedule ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported, without Amendment.

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That the Bill be now read the third time."

My anxiety in asking for increased representation for India was that the Government of India might have an opportunity, if they wished to do so, of nominating upon this Committee an Indian of commercial experience as a real representative of India. I hope that this question will be considered when the matter comes up. I should like to see on the committee of the Imperial Institute one or two Indians.

With all respect to my hon. and gallant Friend, I think you are hardly likely to get an Indian gentleman who will exactly fill this position. I hope under the circumstances that the representative will not be an Indian gentleman, because I do not think that for this particular office he would be suitable. When the Bill was introduced my hon. Friend the Member for the University of London referred to the necessity of having a branch of the Indian Institute in the City. I know that that is extremely difficult, but if it could be at all arranged—as to which I have great doubts—obviously the right place for it would be the School of Oriental Learning in Finsbury Circus. This enables me to refer to that institution, which is so apt to be forgotten. I welcome the opportunity of pointing out that of such institutions as are likely to suit this purpose that is the most likely, and that its adaptation is likely to be completed this year. If my right hon. Friend is considering my hon. Friend's suggestion, I would ask him to bear in mind that that is the proper place for any such annex in the City to the Indian Institute in the West End of London.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read the third time, and passed.

Pacific Islands Regulations (Validation) Bill

Considered in Committee; reported, without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.

War Risks (Insurance by Trustees) Bill [Lords]

Considered in Committee; reported, without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.

Local Government (Emergency Provisions) Bill

Notice of the following Instruction had been given by Mr. King and Mr. Hugh Law, "That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they may insert in the Bill such provisions as may be necessary or desirable to carry into effect the recommendations contained in the Report of the Royal Commission on Venereal Diseases so far as those recommendations relate to the Local Government Board or to local authorities."

These two Instructions, which are identical, propose to insert provisions in the Bill which, in my judgment, would be outside the scope of the Bill. The Bill is a purely emergency Bill. It is described in the title as an Emergency Provisions Bill. The proposals which the hon. Gentleman the Member for North Somerset proposes to incorporate are not emergency proposals, but are those of a permanent character.

On that point, Mr. Speaker, may I just call your attention to Clause 16 ( Incorporation of Joint Committees, etc. )? Fortunately, Clause 16 is not an emergency provision, though it may facilitate indirectly the emergency objects of the Bill. I do not wish to object to this Clause, though I may discuss it later on. My point here is respectfully to suggest that it is just possible you may not have realised that there are permanent provisions in the Bill which are not purely of an emergency character.

There may be emergency proposals which may be subsequently continued, but that does not take away from the Bill its character as an emergency Bill.

Bill considered in Committee.

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

Part I

Provisions as to Officers of Local Authorities in Naval or Military Service

CLAUSE 1.—(Payments to Officers, etc., of Local Authorities in Naval or Military Service.)

(l) Any local authority may grant leave of absence to any officer or servant for as long a period as may be necessary to enable him to serve in or with His Majesty's Forces for the purpose of the present War, and the local authority may—

(a) whilst he is so serving pay to him or to his wife or other dependants nominated by him a sum which shall not, without the sanction of the Local Government Board, exceed his civil remuneration after deducting therefrom the amount of his naval or military pay and allowances; and

(b) in the event of his death, for a period not exceeding twenty-six: weeks after the date of his death, pay to his widow or other dependants sums calculated at the same rate as those previously paid to him, her, or them:

Provided that—

(i.) in fixing the sum to be paid to the widow or other dependant of a deceased officer or servant regard shall be had to any pension or other sum payable to the widow or other dependant out of any public or charitable fund; and

(ii.) it shall not be incumbent on the local authority to reduce any payment made to an officer or servant on the ground that during his Service with the Forces he becomes entitled to increased naval or military pay in consequence of receiving a commission or promotion in rank.

(2) This Section shall apply to the case of an officer or servant of a local authority who before the passing of this Act took service in or with His Majesty's Forces with the sanction or permission of the local authority, and any resolution, promise, sanction or permission, passed, or given by a local authority to any such officer or servant with a view to his serving in or with His Majesty's Forces, shall be binding on the local authority to the extent to which it could be passed or given if the provisions of this Act had been in force:

Provided that where before the passing of this Act a local authority has resolved, promised, sanctioned or agreed to make payments in excess of the amounts authorised by this Section, the Local Government Board may sanction any such excess payments up to the date of the passing of this Act, and if such sanction is given the payment shall be deemed to be lawfully made.

(3) On the application of a local authority the Local Government Board may determine any question as to what amount may be paid under this Section.

The first Amendment on the Paper stands in the name of the hon. Member for Salford (Mr. Montague Barlow)—in Sub-section (1), paragraph ( a ), after the word "which" ["a sum which shall not"], insert the words "subject to the provision hereinafter contained." The words that the ton. Member proposes here are unnecessary. He can bring forward his proposal later.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), paragraph ( a ), to leave out the words "the amount of his naval or military pay and allowances," and to insert instead thereof the words— amount which he was receiving as a servant before he joined the Army, so that the family income will be just the same, though he has joined the Army. Having a separate establishment, he being in the Army and his family at home, his expenses are considerably increased, because to maintain a man and his family when separated, I think all will agree, is greater than when they are together. The municipalities have taken all into consideration, and have given a wider scope to their generosity in dealing with these men, so that they and their families should not suffer though they have enlisted. The Bill creates this discrepancy; in the first place, the municipalities are going to take away what a man is receiving; in addition they are going to place the ordinary cashier, clerk, or book-keeper and the various officials of the municipalities in a worse position. I hope the Government will consider this position, and allow the municipalities to act of their own volition. I do not think anybody will say that they have given too much or have been too generous. They have done their duty with a thorough sense of their responsibility to the ratepayers, and also in their minds with a thorough sense of their responsibility to the man who has given his services to the Crown.

There are two points raised by this Amendment. One is that of the maximum amount. The other point is raised in a number of Amendments on which perhaps a word now will save time—that is the question of enabling the local authorities to carry out the engagements into which they have already entered. While I do not entirely agree with my hon. Friend opposite in what has been done everywhere—in some cases from the best of motives, I think the scale has been unduly high—at the same time I do hope that the Government will secure, either by this or some other Amendment to this Clause, that where people have gone to the War of their own free will, and on the faith of certain provisions made with them and for them by the local authorities, that these provisions shall not be disturbed during the time of the War in respect of these individuals.

The hon. and learned Gentleman behind me (Sir Ryland Adkins) has raised a rather different question than that actually raised by the Amendment itself, although I think it was raised in the speech of my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment. This point may come a little later on for discussion. That is as to how far local authorities ought to be allowed to keep what my hon. and learned Friend has called their engagements to their servants. At present what my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment desires is to make a distinction between the married and the unmarried men, and to make that distinction a general rule. The Government, he said, ought to follow the municipalities. I do not exactly know why we should follow the municipalities. The Government, after much thought and consideration, arrived at a scale for Civil servants, and the scale is that a Civil servant should have his pay as a Civil servant minus the amount of military or naval pay which is taken at a standardised rate of 7s. That scale has been followed by the London County Council, I think, and it makes no difference whatever between single and married men. No difference is made, I am quite sure, at Liverpool. It certainly is not made in London.

Every man under the London County Council, or under the local authorities, or under the Metropolitan borough councils, be he married or be he single, gets the rate of pay according to the scale, and the scale is according to his conditions. No consideration is given as to whether he is married or unmarried. Perhaps what the hon. Member said applied at the beginning of the War, but now that the separation allowances are framed really on a very liberal scale the married man gets his separation allowance and the unmarried man gets no separation allowances, unless, of course, there is some allowance made for dependants. I do not think it is wise to make the suggested distinction. Liverpool might desire to make it, and one or two other places might desire to make it, but as a general rule I think it is best that there should be no distinction between married and single men. In this first Clause the intention is by some standard to say how much the local authorities ought to pay their servants who have joined the Colours. So I think it would be far better, if we followed any example at all, to follow the example set by the Treasury and endorsed by, I understand, the London County Council; to adopt that as the standard, rather than to adopt this very fancy standard of the hon. Member which makes a distinction, which I do not think is warranted, between the married and the unmarried men.

I can understand that the point as regards those who have already had their remuneration fixed will be considered later, but after the point put by the right hon Gentleman I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move in Sub-section (1), paragragh ( a ), after the word "of" ["the amount of the naval or military pay"], to insert the words "seven shillings a week in respect of."

This Amendment must be read in conjunction with a further Amendment, which I have handed in, to leave out paragraph (ii.)—"It shall not be incumbent on the local authority, etc." It places the man who has entered as a second-lieutenant in precisely the same position as the man who has entered as a private, and who has been promoted to a second-lieutenancy. I know many cases where, it may be, a man served a couple of years in the Territorial. Force before the War, and owing to his previous services at the outbreak of the War, he was able to get a commission, and has been serving eighteen months at the front. In the case of that man his full pay as a second-lientenant has been deducted from his civil remuneration. In the case of the man who joins to-day, under the shadow of the Military Service Act, and who ultimately obtains promotion to the rank of second-lieutenant, all that is deducted from his pay is his private's pay. I am seeking by this Amendment to place the man who enters the Army as a commissioned officer on precisely the same footing as the man who enters as a private and takes his promotion to the commissioned ranks. I see no distinction in principle between the two.

I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not accept this Amendment as it stands. There may be a great deal to say for a flat rate, but I do not see why it should be fixed at 7s. 6d. On the Second Reading I instanced the case of a schoolmaster of a secondary school who joined the Army and was guaranteed by the county in which I reside all his salary less 1s. a day. He was promoted to sergeant and got 24s. a week instead of 7s. a week, and is getting his pay and saving a great deal of money. As a matter of fact, he is £80 better off as a result of joining the Army than when serving as a schoolmaster. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not?"] The reason why not is that it is so unequal. It may be very desirable that everybody who joins the Army should be £80 a year better off, but seeing that many are worse off than they were in civil life, it does not seem fair to insert a provision of this kind that the ratepayers are to be made responsible for incurring this increased pay for the men. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will take all the circumstances into account, and certainly not attempt to make a flat rate on such a basis as is proposed in the Amendment.

I think the Mover of the Amendment is sufficiently answered by my hon. Friend who has just spoken. I could not possibly accept this Amendment. It would practically mean that a man in high pay, perhaps, of the local authority, might join as a private, become an officer, and rise very rapidly and obtain the pay of a highly-paid military officer, and be able to enjoy the whole pay except 7s. a week, in addition to the pay of the local authority. Really, I think, the ratepayers would have something to say to that in these days, when all ratepayers, if young men of military age, are expected to serve in the Army, and many married men, are expected to do so too, and give up lucrative positions. I think there would be a very great outcry if anything like that were done.

Might I point out to my right hon. Friend that what he has just said he could not do is already done by a proviso in the Clause, which gives power to the local authority, in the case of a man who rises from the rank of a private, to have no regard to the fact that his pay is increased. What I ventured to point out when I moved my Amendment was, that while the right hon. Gentleman does it in that case he refuses to do it in the case of a man who enters the Army AS a commissioned officer. As the matter stands, it bears very unfairly on a man who enters the Army as a commissioned officer.

I am afraid I cannot support the Amendment, but it seems the only opportunity to put this case. In some cases where a man joins as a private and becomes a commissioned officer, as there is not a separation allowance attached to that position, he is worse off, or his people are, than before he became a commissioned officer, and I do not know there are any words in this Clause to deal with a case of that kind. Where a man obtains a commission, and the result is really to put him in a worse position, then I think the local authority ought to have power to give him special treatment, at any rate with the permission of the Local Government Board.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, in Subsection (1), paragraph ( b ), after the word "of" ["after the date of his death"], to insert the words "notification of."

I merely move this Amendment in order to get an explanation from the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill. The object of the Amendment is simply to give a degree of definiteness to the Clause, rather than leave it open, as I understand in many cases it is not known whether a man is dead or not, and the idea of this Amendment is to make the date as from the notification.

There is something in what my right hon. Friend says, but I think I should prefer some other words. Perhaps he will be content with these words, "after the date on which he is notified to his widow or other dependants as dead or missing, pay to her or them." There is great difficulty, we all know, because of the numbers of missing, and there is great difficulty as to the exact time it should be presumed death took place, and I think we had better have some reference to the missing as well as to the dead. Then, again, notification has to be given, not to the local authority, but to the widow or other dependants.

After the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment made: In Sub-section (1), paragraph ( b ), leave out the words "of his death, pay to his widow or other dependants," and insert instead thereof the words "on which he is notified to his widow or other dependants as dead or missing, pay to her or them."—[ Mr. Hayes Fisher. ]

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), paragraph ( b ), to leave out the words "previously paid to him, her or them," and insert instead thereof the words "paid to him during his civil employment by such local authority."

This Amendment gives to the local authority power to make the payment of the full civil remuneration without any deduction during the twenty-six weeks. Unless that is put in, the widows of a great many men killed in the War will not receive anything at all. For instance, in the case of a motor transport driver, whose pay was 6s. a day, and whose wages with the local authority only 30s. a week, there will be nothing for the widow to take, and I know some local authorities feel strongly that they should be empowered by this Bill to make some payment, and some of them suggest full payment to the widow or other dependants. I hope my right hon. Friend will think it proper to accept this Amendment.

If I understand my hon. Friend's proposal, it is that, after the death of an employé in action at any time, the local authorities shall be given power to pay to the widow for twenty-six weeks the full amount of his pay as a servant of the local authority, although during the whole time of his military service the local authority had not been called upon to make any payment whatever to him. It practically amounts to this, that after the death of the servant of the local authority his widow might be drawing a full State pension and a full supplementary pension, and, in addition, might apply for the full amount of the pay that was given to her husband during his civil employment. I really do not think that is quite what we all desire.

The right hon. Gentleman is not quite right there. His own proviso empowers the local authority to have regard to any pension, so that the local authority would have the right to deduct the pension.

5.0 P.M.

I think that what my hon. Friend is aiming at, after all, is that the ratepayers should pay the pension to the widow of a servant of a local authority for twenty-six weeks. I must say I have a very strong opinon that it is the State and not the ratepayers who ought to find the money. No one has advocated more strongly than I have a generous scale of payment to the widows of those who have sacrificed their lives in the War, but I still think that the money ought to come out of the pockets of the taxpayers and not out of the pockets of the ratepayer; and, consequently, I cannot give countenance to any suggestion which will shift the burden from the taxpayer to the ratepayer. This Amendment would do that, and, in my opinion, would encourage a wrong method of looking at this question.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), paragraph ( b —i.), after the word "fund," to insert the words "unless such fund has been contributed to by such deceased officer or servant."

I do not know whether it is the intention of the draftsman to include in the term "public or charitable fund" a staff fund to which the man himself has contributed.

There, might be public funds to which the man has contributed, and that ought to be taken into account.

In that case, I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in Subsection (1), paragraph ( b —ii.), after the word "he," to insert the words "has become or."

My right hon. Friend has raised the question of a man who has held high office, and has suggested that it might be advisable to keep that case out altogether. It would be purely optional on the part of the local authority to allow the payment to go on at the old rate. Personally, I think the ratepayers ought to profit by the promotion of one of their servants. I do not want a man to suffer in any way, but I think it is the taxpayers who ought to bear the extra burden, and the ratepayers are doing their full duty if they make up the difference of what the man is losing by joining the Army, and anything extra which is continued to the man on account of his promotion ought to come out of the pockets of the taxpayers rather than the ratepayers. I hope my right hon. Friend will consider that point.

May I point out that this proviso is not mandatory; it simply gives the local authorities power to do so-and-so, and it is a matter for the ratepayers themselves.

The lower commissioned ranks will rise, and I am very glad indeed to think that they are rising, and there they are perhaps not quite so well off as they were under their former services. We want to say that it is not incumbent upon the local authorities to make any reduction. If a man goes up step by step and rises, as we hope he will do, to higher ranks and higher pay, probably then the local authorities would make some reduction. I think this provision will work as the hon. Member for the Rushcliffe Division (Mr. Leif Jones) desires.

Question, "That the words 'has become or' be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the word "be" ["could be passed"], and to insert instead thereof the words "have been." I move this Amendment in order to make grammar of it.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in Subsection (2), to leave out the words "the Local Government Board may sanction."

I would like here to mention a consequential Amendment which I intend to move in the next line to leave out the words "and if such sanction is given the payment." The object of my proposal is to get absolution for the local authorities without confessing their sins. It may be, and I believe it is a fact, that some of the local authorities have paid sums in excess of the provisions of this Bill. The provision may be said to be an allowance, or rather an authorisation, to the local authorities to pay up to the extent of a man's wages or income prior to the War minus what he gets from the Army authorities. I believe there are some of the local authorities who have paid up to the extent of the man's pre-war income without having regard to the pay he gets from the Army. That may have been right or wrong, but I know that some of these authorities have done it. They have paid those amounts so that the man's income or the income of his family left at home is the same as it was before he went away, and to the extent that he has made an allotment the woman would be better off than she was when her husband went away. That is a generous attitude on the part of the local authorities, but I submit that we might leave those local authorities to be the best judges of their own business, and the best judges of the extent to which they should be authorised to draw upon the local rates. They have done this, and they have entered into certain obligations. They have made these payments, and speaking for Glasgow I know those payments have been made without any objection being taken on the part of the ratepayers; on the contrary, the ratepayers in Glasgow, I know, are proud that they have made it a little easier for the women and children of the men who have gone away to fight our battles.

The object I have in view is rather to legalise and regularise all that has been done in this direction. Of course, the Bill provides that a local authority may make representations to the Local Government Board as to these promises and the payments which have been made, and the Local Government Board may grant absolution, if it thinks proper, after consideration of the facts submitted. I am told, however, that there are difficulties in regard to that; it might involve an exhaustive search over the books, and a great deal of work on the part of the officers of the local authorities to ascertain exactly what has been paid in respect of each man. The Local Government Board might require all that to be done, and if they did the local authorities would be placed under the obligation of making detailed examinations and statements in regard to each man and the circumstances of those men before they went to the War, and the payments made to their families after they went to the War. I do not think it is desirable that that should be done. Supposing the local authorities put up a good case, and the Local Government Board are disposed to grant absolution, that is all right; but supposing it does not grant absolution, that might involve the technical difficulty of a legal inquiry as to who is responsible for the payments that have been made—

Seeing that this. Amendment is to be accepted, I would like to know if it would apply to municipalities? This power is being given to the Local Government Board, and therefore it can only apply where the Local Government Board has power to audit the accounts, and not to those authorities; where it has no such power to audit.

I stated on the Second Reading that we had no desire to be censorious about the proceedings of the various local authorities, but in some cases they have been extremely lavish with the money of the ratepayers. I admit that they have acted from very laudable motives, and with a real desire to encourage recruiting at a time when it was very necessary to give a stimulus to recruiting. Although we have no desire to be censorious, we do desire to standardise and regularise these payments, and get some common agreement as to what scale should be adopted. I agree that it is not necessary to obtain the sanction of the Local Government Board in all these cases, but by this Bill we shall practically automatically regularise any payments that have been made in excess of the standard we now adopt.

What about the payments in excess of the standard for the rest of the War with regard to particular individuals who on the face of those payments have joined the Army? That is one difficulty. I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for accepting this Amendment, but I wish to put that point to him.

I do not think this is the proper place to enter into a debate on that question, and I think the hon. Member will find that we are dealing with a different point altogether.

I should like to raise a point in regard to the Amendment on this point standing in my name on the Paper, because it is causing great difficulty.

The hon. Member was absent when I called upon him to move his Amendment, and that point cannot be raised now.

Question, "That the words 'the Local Government Board may sanction' be left out," put, and agreed to.

The following Amendment stood in the names of Mr. Turton and Sir Ryland Adkins: In Sub-section (2) leave out the words "up to the date of the passing of this Act."

The proviso, as drawn, is limited to the date of the passing of the Act, but as my right hon. Friend has got an Amendmennt down subsequently which I hope will equally carry out my object, I do not propose to move.

I beg to move the Amendment because I think it does raise the question what you are going to do in the future. You have left out the words, "the Local Government Board may sanction," so that the Clause now reads:

"Provided that where before the passing of the Act a local authority has resolved, promised, sanctioned, or agreed to make payments in excess of the amounts authorised by this Section any such excess payments up to the date of the passing of this Act."

If we leave out these words, it will mean that those payments will become legal during the period of the War. Where anyone has joined the Army on the face of these allowances from the local authority who employed him, I want in some form or other—and I hope this Amendment will achieve it—to ensure that faith will be kept with him until the end of the War. I entirely approve of the Bill for the future, and I think some local authorities may have been too lavish, but I hope there will be no breaking of faith with the men who have gone.

I propose to move an Amendment to insert the words, "or such later date as may be determined by the Local Government Board," and if those words are accepted they will slightly modify the words which now stand in the Bill, "up to the date of the passing of the Act," but they will not, and they are not intended, to do what my hon. and learned Friend apparently desires should be done. No matter how lavish the payments made by certain local authorities to their servants may have been, no matter how unwisely generous perhaps they may have been, and no matter what effect the combined charge on the rates may be, I understand my hon. and learned Friend desires that those payments once having been made should be sanctified to the end of the War. I cannot agree with my hon. and learned Friend.

We will say "sanctioned," but my hon. and learned Friend did lead one to suppose that he almost regarded them as sanctified. I do not. After all, it is possible that a local authority in a great fit of generosity may have said to its servants, "If you enlist we shall give you the whole of your civil service pay, we shall give you other terms of a very generous nature, and we shall do so no matter how long the War may last, even although it results in you having your military pay as well, and, if you are a married man, your married allowance as well, n dyour wife and family having twice and sometimes three times as much as your civil pay, even although it results in you having, instead of 30s. per week, 60s. per week for the rest of the War." There are some such cases. We do not know quite how many, but we know that there are a fair number. A private individual has a perfect right to make an agreement with another private individual, and by that agreement he must stand, but a local authority must recollect that it is a statutory body and that it cannot go outside the Statute. If it does and it makes allowances which are held to be unreasonable, or if it lays down terms or conditions for future service which are held to be unreasonable, there is, after all, such a person as the auditor, and those who do these things may come into contact with the auditor, as they have done in one or two cases. That is exactly where I differ with my hon. and learned Friend. The men who have had the benefit of this arrangement have had the benefit of it for something like twenty months.

We must recollect that the ratepayers were not consulted and knew nothing about it. The aggregate effect of such payments on the rates is really very appreciable, in some cases amounting to £20,000 or £25,000 a year, or at any rate very large sums. The local authority, after all, may have acted ultra vires. It very likely did act ultra vires. There is another consideration. No elections can now take place and there is no way of consulting the ratepayers at all. I agree entirely with my hon. and learned Friend and others who have spoken, that the ratepayers did and do desire that these local employés should be generously treated, but if you were to consult the ratepayers now I very much doubt if they would desire that the civil pay and the military pay should be twice and sometimes three times as much as the amount the employé enjoyed in time of peace. All things have changed since August, 1914. We little realised then what would be the financial effect of the War upon the country. We did not realise what would be the financial effect upon the ratepayers or upon the general citizens of this country. If the employés who are now enjoying these very large sums in addition to their military pay had not enlisted at that time, the younger unmarried men would have been obliged to enlist, and in all probability they would have gone without these conditions. No one holds more strongly than I do that contracts and agreements of this kind, should be kept, but I must warn the Committee that in considering these cases you must recollect that you cannot make a contract which it is outside your statutory right to make. The auditor has something to say and the Courts of Justice have something to say upon the matter. I do, therefore, beg the Committee to come to some arrangement as regards all these local authorities and to arrive at some standard which shall be regularised for all, some standard which shall be generous but not extravagant, and which the ratepayers, looking at the present circumstances, would be likely to sanction.

I have got evidence, and indeed it is obvious in connection with the corporation with which I am most familiar, that allowances have been made and promises have been entered into with, servants of corporations slightly in excess; in certain cases of the scale laid down, but not of the excessive character which has been suggested to us. I am not in the superior position of the heads of the Departments who have got this knowledge, and I am quite willing to accept the statement that there are cases of excessive promises. Accepting that statement for the moment, I agree that the Amendment which stood in my name, and which, unfortunately, I was not in a position to move, might have gone too far, and I am, therefore, quite willing to accept some form of words inserted here which may be made to work out equitably and justly. I think where the local authorities have acted bonâ fide and in the interests of the nation as a whole, as they have very largely done, and without any excessive extravagance, that any small excess paid over the amount now allowed by the Bill ought to be secured to them, and they ought not to have to run the risk of being surcharged. That surely is common sense. I would put it strongly, not only on the ground of the local authorities, but also on the ground of the men themselves. After all, the men have gone to the front, relying on this pledge, and, although it is true that none of us anticipated the War would go on so long, or what the burden would be, it is equally true that the men who enlisted went on the faith of a very definite promise. If anything is done, I will not say to break that promise, but to modify it, it should surely only be under the stress of very strong proof of very excessive largesse on the part of the local authority. Therefore, I do urge very strongly that local authorities, where they have acted in good faith, should be allowed to pay possibly in the future, and that certainly payments in the past made in good faith should be sanctioned.

If that is done, then I am satisfied, but they should be given some reasonable safeguards with regard to the future. The contract, after all, is for the future. The man is going to serve until the end of the War, and he has gone to the front on the faith of these promises. I do hope, therefore, that this position will be protected.

I want to support the contention of the hon. Gentleman opposite, and I would remind the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill that his Department issued a circular in the early days of the War, recommending local authorities to release as many of their servants as possible, and suggesting that they should be dealt with generously. It made no mention of the scale which is now being standardised in this Bill. A lot of these men went, not possibly under the compulsion of their local authorities, but on the encouragement of these promises made to them, and to suggest now getting rid of these promises made, especially when we are in a war for the maintenance of a "scrap of paper," is not quite playing the game. I would suggest that the number of local authorities making these extraordinarily high payments is probably very small. I know there are, perhaps, Camberwell, Lambeth, and one or two more, but, so far as I can ascertain, the number making very high payments to their men is very small. After all, this but authorises the local authorities to do what they will with the money the ratepayers find them. It is not mandatory; it is only giving the authorities power to keep the promises they have made. It should be remembered that prices have been rising so quickly that the effect of these grants is being diminished by 50 per cent. There is, therefore, excellent ground why we should retain the amounts which were promised when the men went. If the right hon. Gentleman cannot go all the way, perhaps he would go so far as to assure the Committee that if a local authority made an appeal to his Department they would grant something slightly in excess of what may be called the Treasury scale or the standard scale in this Bill, it would go a long way to meet the case we are urging. If he would give such an assurance, and I think it is possible within the terms of the Bill, particularly Clause 1, enabling a local authority to keep, not, perhaps, its full pledge, but a modification of it, which would give a little more than the Treasury scale, I think it would meet the greater part of the case we are now making, and I put forward that suggestion in the hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to accept it.

There must be some misunderstanding as to the effect of this Clause. I certainly do not appreciate the point raised by the hon. Member for Salford (Mr. Barlow) because the Local Government Board has no control over the expenditure of money by the Salford Corporation. The corporation can pay anything it thinks fit to its servants without any interference on the part of the Local Government Board. Therefore all the municipalities in the country are really exempt from any control under this Clause. I cannot understand really how it can be suggested that it will apply to them. I can quite appreciate that it may apply to the London municipalities because their accounts are subject to Government audit, and indeed it is only as a result of the audit of their accounts that the Local Government Board discovered that payments were being made largely in excess of the salaries or wages of the men who had been employed by them, taking into consideration the separate allowances. But so far as the municipalities are concerned, I repeat again the Clause will not apply to them unless the Government are going to send down an auditor to audit their accounts—a thing they never do.

That is so. The Local Government Board have no power, and consequently the Salford Corporation can continue to pay the amounts they are now paying even if they be in excess of the proper amount as suggested, without any interference from the Local Government Board. In view of the fact that the words—"sanction of the Local Government Board must be obtained" —have been taken out, the effect is to leave the matter optional to the authorities, and even to those bodies whose accounts are audited by the Local Government Board.

I think the hon. Gentleman who last spoke is wrong so far as the county boroughs are concerned. In the case of those boroughs the education accounts, at any rate, are audited by the State, and the members who have sanctioned these grants might therefore be liable to be surcharged. But I want to make an appeal to the right hon. Gentleman on general grounds. It may be that certain local authorities have erred on the side of being too generous, and probably there are cases where the money so granted has been used not too wisely by, the people who have received it. But that is no reason why we should seek to assist the municipal authorities to break the bargain which they have made with their servants who have joined His Majesty's forces. I hope the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill will adopt a generous attitude in regard to this matter. My hon. Friend the Member for the Black-friars Division (Mr. Barnes) tells me the case of his son is a case in point, as he is receiving full wages from the authorities by which he was employed and getting his military pay as well. We who are here staying at home experiencing none of the discomforts of the Army ought not to be too ready to talk about these people getting too much money. What sacrifices we are making here are not worth considering at all. The men who are fighting our battles are making enormous sacrifices, and, seeing that there is plenty of generosity in many quarters, I do suggest that wherever else we may try to economies we have no right to seek economies in this particular direction, and we have no right either to seek to assist local authorities in breaking their bargain. If they have in the past been too lavish, they may by this Bill be prevented from acting in a like manner on a future occasion. Personally I am in favour of the soldier being well paid, and we ought to see to it that he is.

I think it is of vital importance that the promises made to these men should be carried out, because, on the face of those promises, they have left their families, and, for a period of fifteen months or more, have been fighting for their country. I am glad to know that by a recent decision in the High Courts these bargains have been held to be enforceable. When an employer has told his workman that he will, if he joins the Army, pay him his full wages during the continuance of the War, then that is a bargain that is given for legal and binding consideration, and can be enforced. There is no shadow of doubt that men who have received such a promise have a right of action against the corporations making it, and although I know it may be said that the corporation was acting ultra vires, I do not think there is any justification for not giving effect to it. The effect may be that where a body has made such a promise the burden on the taxpayer may amount to some £20,000 or £30,000 a year, and the liability for carrying it out might be thrown on to the particular members of the council who entered into the bargain, I will not say on the direct suggestion of the Local Government Board, but certainly following upon a suggestion of that body contained in a circular in which they asked the local authorities to deal generously with the men who left their employment in order to join the Colours. I should have thought that the only proper way of dealing with this question was not only to keep faith with the men and to see that they are paid by the authorities who induced them to join the Army on this solemn undertaking, but also to keep faith with the members of the municipalities who acted on the suggestion contained in the circular sent out by the Local Government Board, and who certainly ought not to be called upon to make good the bargain out of their own pockets. So far as the burden which will fall upon the ratepayer is concerned, it does not very much matter. I know a great many of the local authorities have agreed to pay full wages, and I suggest there is every reason, founded on principle and justice, why the men should be kept faith with and why the members of the municipality who acted on the suggestion of the Local Government Board should be indemnified against any liabilities which they have thus incurred.

I want to add my word of appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider his decision on this matter. I would remind him, and hon. Members present, of what took place the other day—last Thursday—when the Government came down to the House and tabled a Resolution to deprive soldier Members of this House of one of the two salaries they are receiving or can receive. On that occasion the sense of the House was so unmistakably expressed that the Government had to withdraw their own Resolution, and, therefore, we are in this position that Members of this House who are at the front are authorised by the action taken the other day by the House of Commons and are practically invited to draw two salaries while they are serving at the front—that is to say, a salary of £400 as a Member of this House and pay to the extent of £500 or £600 as an officer in the Army. I submit that what is good for a Member of Parliament is not at all bad for an employé of a local authority. This is purely a matter of allowing and not of compelling the local authority to implement its promise made at the beginning of the War. This is not a mandatory Clause. It is a Clause enabling the local authority to live up to its bargain, and I venture to say there is not a reputable banking or insurance company, or firm of any sort, which would think of breaking a bargain made under these circumstances.

I venture to say that if this Bill passes in its present form authorising a local authority to break its promise, it would not prove effective. I want the House to consider, however, what may happen if the Bill does pass in its present form. We are, in a sense, inviting a local authority to go back on its word. If it does so, it may be sued by somebody with a view to compelling it to abide by its promise. Very likely it would be sued to implement the promise it made at the beginning of the War. Yet, supposing it kept its promise, it would be open to some legal action on the part of somebody who would claim that the authority had acted beyond the scope of its powers. Why, then, do not the Government take the honest course which any reputable banking, insurance, or other firm would undoubtedly take, of keeping the promise which has been made to the men? I myself have been connected with a small concern—the Co-operative Printing Society—which made a promise to the men who joined the forces to give them their full rate of wages without any regard to their military pay. After a period of six or eight months we began to find this was a very considerable burden which we would not be able to continue to bear, and therefore we revised our scale and said that any man joining from that date forward would come under a new arrangement. But we never for a single moment thought of breaking a promise which we had made to the men who had already been serving for six or eight months, and who joined the forces on the strength of the promise we made them. What my hon. Friend who moved this Amendment wants to secure is that we shall authorise the local authorities and leave them free to keep their promise, and that we shall not invite them to break it. I hope the Government will reconsider this matter and accept the Amendment.

This is a very difficult matter I agree, and I do not think hon. Members quite appreciate what the position or the proposal is. The proposal is that, without any authority whatever, we shall confirm all the resolutions, whatever their terms, which have been passed by local authorities in regard to men serving with the Colours. This Amendment would cover all the claims, large and small, including the cases where men are now paid double their previous income, or it may be a larger sum. The Amendment would cover not only cases where there is what we may call a contract, but cases where there is nothing but a resolution passed, perhaps, after certain men had joined the Army, and, therefore, a resolution on which the men could not be said to have acted in becoming members of His Majesty's Forces. It would cover all these cases for which there was no authority whatever, and that is a very serious matter. It is an extremely persuasive argument to use to say that these are contracts which ought to be kept. But there are other points of view to be borne in mind. One point is that they are not contracts at all, because they do not bind anybody. They are agreements which the authorities had no power whatever to make, and therefore they are not, as in the case quoted just now, matters which could be the subject of legal proceedings against the authority.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell us that county and borough councils have not the power to decide what they shall pay to their servants who have enlisted?

They can only act within their powers. I do not want to pronounce an opinion which might have to be considered in regard to a specific case, but I would point out there is ground for doubting whether there is power in an authority to continue his pay when the man is no longer in their employ. Perhaps I put it too high in saying that they have no power, because I do not wish to prejudice people who may want to take action.

That is the point I do not at all wish to prejudice. At all events, some ratepayers may say hereafter that there was no power to make these so-called contracts. Secondly, I want to remind hon. Members that the authorities are dealing not with their own money, but with the money of other people. We have to deal to-day not with our own money, but with the money of the ratepayers, some of whom may themselves be on active service in the War and may have to fulfil their obligations as ratepayers in addition to other obligations. Therefore, one must not be too generous with other people's money. One of the duties the Local Government Board has to perform is to prevent people from being too generous with the money of other people. The matter does require a great deal more consideration than it has had. I want to add, because it is very material, that it is proposed to move, immediately this Amendment is disposed of, an Amendment enabling the Local Government Board to authorise the continuation of these payments during such time as they think fit. That matter is covered by the very next Amendment on the Paper, so that when a case is brought before the Board in which the authorities say, "We promised a certain man a certain payment and he joined the Army on the faith of that promise, good or bad; will you allow us to continue the payment?" It will be entirely within the power of the Board to say, "Yes, we will sanction that particular payment." I am quite sure, if I know anything at all of the Local Government Board, that they would consider very carefully such a proposal as that, with a desire to do justice in every particular case. Therefore, the option is not between, as some Members have said, preventing the authorities from carrying out their contracts and making no payment; the option is between leaving the Board that dispensing power, which I am sure will be fairly exercised, and, on the other hand, by one stroke of the pen saying that a resolution sanctioning particular payments, wise or unwise, shall continue throughout the War. It would be a very serious matter if the Committee should, by an Amendment of this kind, take out of the hands of the Board the whole power to consider all these arrangements, and should, without any consideration of the details, determine the matter once for all by one stroke of the pen. All of us would like to see the largest sum possible paid to the men who have joined the Army. I certainly should. On the other hand, we have our duties to the ratepayers and the public as a whole, including the ratepayers who are also serving in the War. I suggest that, on the whole, the solution is found by leaving the matter in the hands of the Board, and not by passing an Amendment which will go further than hon. Members really conceive, and sanctioning all these resolutions.

In regard to this particular Amendment, a good deal depends upon the next Amendment suggested by the Solicitor-General. Could we have that Amendment pointed out to us?

It is the next Amendment on the Paper. After the word "Act" ["up to the date of the passing of this Act"], to insert the words "or such later date as may be determined by that Board"—that is, the Local Government Board.

I should like to say one word in reply to my right hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General. I am very sorry he is not able to go any further. I appreciate the point of most of what he said. I am sure the Committee will realise what the position is. First of all, with regard to boroughs, they have their own auditors. Apart from the Education Act they are not under the Local Government Board—perhaps they ought to be, but they are not—therefore they merely have to face what may be called the purely legal risks of the action they have taken.

I am dealing with boroughs generally outside the Metropolitan area. If I am wrong now, I shall be most promptly corrected by my right hon. and learned Friend. With regard to these boroughs, they have their own auditors; they are not under the Local Government Board; the Local Government Board discretion and guidance does not Apply to them in this matter, and they will be left afterwards, as they are to-day, with the legal risks they have chosen to run in regard to this matter. Therefore with regard to one very large and almost the most important section of the local authorities, certainly those which have the largest number of employés, we are not really dealing with the matter. With regard to another class of local authorities, the county councils, I should think there is hardly any case of excess. Most county councils, like that to which I have the honour to belong, go on the distinct principle that no man should lose or gain pecuniarily by joining the Army, and that it is their duty to pay him such a sum that he will neither gain nor lose on the net result. We are left in this position, that because certain boroughs, and particularly because of the crimes of Camberwell, uncertainty is now to be promulgated by Parliament as to whether men now serving at the front on the faith of certain arrangements are or are not to have those arrangements continued to be carried out.

I put this case to the Committee: A man who is a municipal servant, say, if you like, a servant even in Camberwell, joins the Army, and he is told, rightly or wrongly, that he will be paid at a certain rate if he goes. He goes, he makes all his arrangements, domestic and otherwise, on the faith of that arrangement, and after having been at the front for twenty months he finds that that arrangement is no longer certain and that he cannot tell for weeks or months what will be the result of the Camberwell Borough Council and the Local Government Board's view of that arrangement. Is that right? I hoped my right hon. and learned Friend would have said that, if not here then on the Report stage, the Government would consider whether they could not secure absolutely existing payments to those soldiers who had joined after such resolutions, when those resolutions were known to them and when they knew that they would have those payments made to them. The point does not arise in the same degree in the case of those who joined before any such resolutions were passed, any more than it does now in the case of those who join after to-day, when we know what is possible in the future. I would ask the Government, for the sake of a few thousand pounds, if it means as much as that, not to give the slightest indication to any who are now fighting for England that what they have looked on month by month as a certain thing is now to be risked. I do not call it a contract or a debt, but it is one of those matters of honour in which it is most desirable for Parliament to behave, if necessary, even with excessive generosity, and particularly, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Black-friars Division (Mr. Barnes) has pointed out, after the result of the Resolution we had before us the other day in regard to Members of this House, the only fitting conclusion to which we can come is that a man who has joined the Colours after a resolution on these lines has been passed by the local authority which employed him should not have the confidence which he has hitherto held unshaken in any way by the ex post facto action of this House.

I wish to add my voice to the appeal of the hon. Member who has just sat down. I think the Solicitor-General will see that there was force in. the statement that has just been made in regard to these particular men. It is only made in regard to these particular men. If there is any illegality at all in regard to the payment surely it applies to the whole of the payment, whether it be part of the salary or the whole of the salary, or even in excess of the salary. As the question of legalising any payment and continuing that payment seems to arise, and we have got to clear up an illegality, we ought to clear it up so that the resolution or the contract which was made—call it an agreement if you like, not a contract—should be carried out. The municipalities and the House of Commons ought not to be less generous, ought not to be less fair and ought not to do with regard to these men what; no private firm has done or will do. Therefore I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that either now or on the Report stage he should adopt the suggestion which has just been made, which would give to these men the certainty which I think they ought to have.

I do not like the Clause as it appears likely to 'be left. It seems to suggest that all these payments are to be terminated. The supposition should not be that they are to be terminated, even if they are a little in excess of the scale. The Clause should rather leave it that they ought to be sanctioned unless there is something really extreme. If the Amendment which is to be considered next is inserted, it still leaves the Clause in the same position, because in such cases payments up to the date of the passing of this Bill are to be sanctioned, or to such later date as may be determined by the Local Government Board. That suggests that there is a date to be fixed at which these payments are to come to an end. It would be well before the Report stage to consider whether the supposition cannot be put the other way about, and that it shall only be in extreme cases, of which instances have been given, in which there shall be any interference with what appears to me to be a contract. Perhaps "contract" is too strong a term to use in any legal sense. At all events, it was an honourable understanding which I am sure all the ratepayers would like to be carried out.

6.0 P.M.

I would make an appeal to the Solicitor-General in regard to the contradictory nature of this Clause. As it reads now it appears to do away with the very thing that he has been advocating. If the Amendment standing in the name of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board is inserted, it will certainly give power to the Local Government Board to do what they have already given up. The original intention of the Sub-section was to prevent any payment in excess of the sum fixed in the previous Sub-section—that is to say, that it should not be above the civilian remuneration. Before the local authorities—not the municipalities—could pay that excess sum they were bound to receive the sanction of the Local Government Board. Those words have been taken out, and now he proposes to substitute for them the words "or such later date as may be determined by that Board." That is to say, that although the Local Government Board has taken out the power of the Board to give sanction to these excess payments, now they claim that they should have the power to say when these payments are to terminate. I think that is certainly contradictory, and what we have been given to understand is that all the payments which have been promised up to the present should go on and any new payments which are to be made will be reviewed by the Local Government Board. But I certainly think that with this new Amendment which is suggested we have given the power to the Local Government Board to review these cases when they have already given up their point and accepted the Amendment of the hon. Member (Mr. Barnes) to omit these words.

I observed in the speech of the Solicitor-General that when he recognised the importance of the matter now before the Committee he said it would require further consideration. That, I understand, is the opinion of my hon. Friend, and I associate myself with him and other Members of the Committee in asking that between now and the Report stage it may receive that further consideration, so that all those who have expressed opinions differing from the right hon. Gentleman might have due consideration in the meantime, and, if possible, he may find himself able to meet them.

I am a member of the Dublin Port and Docks Board, and at the outbreak of the War we issued a poster offering any of our employés who joined the Army half their pay. The wages we were paying to our labourers at the time were £l a week. Most of them were married men with from two to three children, and if you calculate the separation allowance as paid to a man with two or three children—he gets either 23s. or 25s. a week—that would mean that he was getting 3s. a week by joining the Army more than we were paying him. Am I to understand that after we promised to give him half his pay—10s.—bringing up his pay to £1 12s. 6d., this 10s. is to be withdrawn, because, if so, I think that is really unfair to the men who enlisted on the faith of our promises?

One cannot help being struck with the almost unanimity of opinion in the Committee in favour of some arrangement by which complete payment may be made to all employés who were induced to enlist in the Army and serve in His Majesty's Forces at the beginning of the War by promises held out to them, certainly of a very beneficial character, by people who at least thought they had the power to make those promises. I am rather torn in two. My sympathies are to a large extent with them, as they would always be with those who thought a bargain should be kept. But my sympathies are also with the ratepayers under the present circumstances and conditions, when they find they have to go to the front—they are compelled to enlist in some cases—and very likely, instead of getting additional payment to what they previously enjoyed, have to give up very important places and positions and great pecuniary benefit, and find that there are others fighting, perhaps side by side with them, who are drawing to a very large extent on the rates which they pay, and are getting very large sums of money for fighting for their country. They may be a little envious and jealous, and the position is a little unequal. After all, I admit the very great force of arguments which have been addressed to my right hon. Friend and myself. How do we stand at present? No matter how excessive may have been the payment up to this time, no matter how unreasonable may have been the terms and conditions offered to the men, all these terms and conditions are legalised up to the date of the passing of the Bill, and, if my Amendment is carried, for a time even beyond that with the consent of the Local Government Board. But for the future, if those terms and conditions are still to prevail and these added payments are still to be made, it will be necessary to obtain the sanction of the Local Government Board. I can only say two things at present. First of all, if the Local Government Board is asked for its consent to continue these excess payments for the period even of the War, one element which they will take into consideration, and which will weigh strongly with them, will be this element of a bargain, or contract or agreement, that has been made between these men, who, relying on the bargain, contract or agreement, whatever you call it, were induced to offer their services to their country. All I can say beyond that is that I will consult my right hon. Friend, who has left this Bill in my charge, having many other things to do; will tell him that a very important Debate has arisen, and I will seek his advice and authority for any statement I may make when we come to the Report stage.

I do not like to allow this Amendment to pass by without putting a question concerning the position in regard to police officials in Scotland. There is an Amendment on the Paper in the name of my hon. Friend (Mr. Macleod) and myself on Clause 19, and I am not at all certain that the question raised by it may not be thought by you to be a proper question to have been raised in another part of the Bill. Possibly it ought to be raised now. I realise that local government officials are in a different position from police constables in connection with this or any other Bill, and as a general rule they have been dealt with by separate Bills. I should like to ask whether we are to deal with that by an Amendment on Clause 19, or whether it would be necessary to ascertain if the Home Office is going to introduce a measure to deal with them in this particular case? If any allowance of this kind is made in Glasgow, for example, beyond the powers which are given to the corporation by the Reservists Act, 1914, and these men have enlisted on the faith of those allowances, it is to be hoped that they will be legalised not only up to now but subsequently.

I did not hear any answer given to the question put by my hon. Friend (Mr. Byrne). In my view it is quite clear that the men he spoke of would lose everything under the Clause. Iii my opinion that is a hardship, and I am not in the least impressed by the argument that one man should not be paid better than another. At least, this man from the Dock and Harbour Board, and others in a like position, can truly say "I am a volunteer in every sense of the word. I volunteered, and I have run risks in the War from the very beginning, and the longer my service the greater has been my chance of loss of life." To turn round on these men who enlisted on the faith of a promise honestly made by the Dock and Harbour Board and other like authorities and say to them when they have gone to serve their country, "We are not going to carry out the promise we made to you," is quite wrong. My belief is that the men in the trenches, so far from raising any objection in regard to the fact that another man has higher pay, will say, "Good luck to you. I wish I had it," and there will be no feeling of jealousy of any sort or kind. I strongly press upon my right hon. Friend that he will himself strongly put this point before the Bill finally passes from the House, and will insist that in regard to that which has been done in the past our position should be clear and that neither in this House nor outside it will we permit anyone to break a bargain honestly made and on the faith of which men have enlisted.

In view of what the right hon. Gentleman has said, and in the strong hope we shall all entertain that the President and himself will see if they can give complete security, I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment made: After the word "Act" ["the passing of this Act"], insert the words "or such later date as may be determined by the Local Government Board."—[ Mr. Hayes Fisher. ]

Leave out the words "and if such sanction is given the payment."

After the word "be" ["deemed to be lawfully made"], insert the words "had been."—[ Mr. Barnes. ]

I beg to move, at the end of the Sub-section, to add the words "Provided, further, that nothing in this Subsection shall be construed as restricting the application of this Section."

I think these words are clearly wanted. They will not limit Sub-section (2), but will give it obviously what is intended, that is, a wider application. The Sub-section begins in this way:

"This Section shall apply to the case of an officer or servant of a local authority who before the passing of this Act took service."

That being a Sub-section of this first Clause it seems, and I think it might be so construed, as if the whole Clause were exclusively for such a case, and I think some such words as I suggest would provide what is clearly the intention, namely, that the case should also apply to those who come in after the passing of the Act. I suppose there is no doubt from the first Sub-section of this Clause that it intends to apply to those who may at any future time come in. I hope, therefore, that my Amendment will be accepted.

I do not think my hon. Friend need be under the least apprehension. It seems to me the meaning of the Clause is quite clear. The first Sub-section deals with the future and the second Subsection extends to the past. I think that is the right view of the Clause, and that this Amendment is not necessary.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The next Amendment on the Paper, in the name of the hon. Member for South Paddington (Mr. Percy Harris), deals with a subject which we have been discussing for the last hour.

I beg to move, to add as a new Sub-section:

(4) Where any local authority has adopted a scale of payments for its officers and servants serving in or with His Majesty's Forces in accordance with or not exceeding the scale of payments laid down for officers and servants of His Majesty's Civil Service so serving it shall not be necessary for any such local authority to obtain the sanction of the Local Government Board as required by this Section, and any payments made in accordance with such scale shall be deemed to be and to have been lawfully made.

I have been asked to move this Amendment by the London County Council in the interest of economy. The object is to prevent the necessity of local authorities who adopt the Government scale having to obtain sanction from the Local Government Board. It seems to me obvious that when the London County Council has adopted the Government scale the Local Government Board can scarcely refuse to sanction their own scale. It is perfectly true that the Amendment which has already been passed to some extent meets the case. At the same time, I am informed that if it becomes necessary for the London County Council to go into the individual cases of the thousands of employés who are serving with His Majesty's Forces it will mean very much expense. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to accept my Amendment.

With respect to the sanction of the Local Government Board, I should say that if they were appealed to by the London County Council or by any authority which had limited itself to adopting the Treasury scale as laid down for Civil servants, I could hardly doubt what would be the effect of the application to the Local Government Board. It could not very well refuse its sanction in such a case. I am willing to accept his Amendment on the whole because I think it is a reasonable one, but I should want to add as a proviso that if the scale of payments laid down for officers and servants of the Civil Service is changed, the scale adopted by the local authorities should be changed in accordance with that scale. If I accept the hon. Member's Amendment I should move this proviso as an Amendment with a view to bringing the local scale into line with the general scale adopted by the Government in regard to Civil servants. If one is altered the other must be altered too.

Yes, I beg to move as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment to add at the end the words, "Provided, that if the scale of payments laid down for officers and servants of His Majesty's Civil Service shall be changed, the scale adopted by the local authorities shall also be changed in accordance with the Civil Service scale." If the hon. Member accepts that I will accept his Amendment.

Are not these words now proposed superfluous and directly contradictory to what we have already decided upon?

It seems to me, as I understand these words, that we are getting into a wrong channel altogether. How can we by a proviso in this Sub-section provide that local authorities shall hereafter enter on a new course to be guided by the course which the Government may take? I suggest that these words now proposed by the right hon. Gentleman appear to have been brought forward without sufficient thought. If the words were altered in such a way as to provide that consent should be necessary hereafter in case the Government should alter its scale and the local authorities should also alter their scale, then that would be intelligible, and I think it would be proper. As it strikes my uneducated sense, this particular addendum to the Amendment proposed by the hon. Member is a mistake in drafting.

What we have been doing up to the present time, as I understand from this Clause, is to empower the local authorities to go on paying what they have already been paying. If this Amendment is added to the end of the Clause, what I understand it to mean would be this, although I am not a lawyer and I do not understand legal phraseology, that the local authorities will not be allowed to go on paying, but that they must adopt some new scale if the Government chooses to adopt a new scale. If it does not mean that, I should like to know what it does mean?

All that my Amendment means is that the London County Council and other authorities who have adopted the Government scale need not come to the Local Government Board for sanction. The Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman is that if the Government scale is changed then they will either have to acquiesce in the Government scale or come to the Local Government Board for sanction.

I think the hon. Member has overlooked the fact that the words in the Clause asking the Local Government Board's sanction for the new scale is omitted now. Therefore, there is no need if the County Council is not paying in excess of the terms of the civil remuneration in this Clause, to obtain the sanction of the Local Government Board. I think that the words proposed to be added to the Clause will complicate it very much for the local authorities. I think that this Clause ought to be as simple as possible, so that the local authorities can understand what is expected of them. I am quite certain that if these words are put in they are in contradiction to what we have already decided.

My hon. Friend must have noticed that the Bill still requires that, where there is a proposal to pay a greater sum than that mentioned in the first paragraph, that is, a greater sum than the civil pay, sanction shall be obtained. Those are cases where, by agreement or by some arrangement, a greater sum is paid than the civil pay to a number of men in bulk. The object of the hon. Member's Amendment is that in such cases the local authority shall not have to go to the Board for sanction in each case, but may rely upon the general sanction of the Bill. I think with that explanation the Amendment does carry out a useful purpose. At the same time, I quite appreciate what has been said about the effect of the Amendment to the Amendment. If the Amendment to the Amendment is carried something might be done which the Committee say they do not wish to be done, namely, that what has already been passed may be modified. I quite appreciate that point, and I have suggested to my right hon. Friend that we might adopt the Amendment and then consider between now and the Report stage a supplementary Amendment which will be dependent on the course we take on the wider question.

Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Words proposed there inserted.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2.—(Payments under Superannuation Schemes.)

If an officer or servant of a local authority dies whilst serving in or with His Majesty's Forces, or in consequence of wounds or disease received or contracted during such service which prevented him from returning to the service of the local authority, the local authority shall have, and shall be deemed always to have had, power to make to his widow or dependants such payments as could have been made to them under any superannuation scheme (whether established by Statute or otherwise) in force in the district had he been actually serving the local authority at the time of his death.

I beg to move, after the word "or" ["widow or dependants"], to insert the word "other."

I accept the Amendment.

Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

I have been asked by persons interested to inquire whether the payments under the superannuation schemes provided for by this Clause are to be taken into account in fixing the sum to be paid to the widow or dependants of a deceased officer or servant upon Proviso (1) of Sub-section (l) of the first Clause, that is to say, whether the payments under the superannuation fund are payments out of any public or charitable fund. I imagine that a payment out of the superannuation fund would not be a payment out of a public fund. I imagine that a superannuation fund is one contributed to by the persons interested or by their employers and would not be described as a public fund. Perhaps the Solicitor-General will be able to answer the question.

If the fund referred to in Clause (2) is a public or charitable fund, then, of course, you must take into account under Proviso (1) of Clause (1) the payment out of that fund. It all depends upon whether it is a public fund or not.

Question put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 3.—(Reckoning Service for Superannuation.)

(1) All service by an officer or servant of a local authority in or with His Majesty's Forces for the purposes of the present war shall, for the purposes of any enactment providing for the superannuation of such officers and servants applicable to his case, be aggregated and reckoned with his service as an officer or servant of the local authority, and he shall contribute to the superannuation fund (if any) the same amounts (if any) as he would have contributed if he had continued in their actual service and had received the normal remuneration of that service.

(2) For the purposes of calculating the amount of such contributions and of superannuation allowances the amount of the salary or wages and emoluments during the period of service in or with His Majesty's Forces shall be deemed to be the amount which the officer or servant would have received during that period if he had remained in the actual service of the local authority.

(3) This Section shall not apply in respect of any teacher to whom the Elementary School Teachers (War Service Superannuation) Act, 1914, applies.

I beg to move in Sub-section (1), after the word "Forces" ["with His Majesty's Forces"], to insert the words "or on munition or other work for the Government."

The object of this Amendment is to deal with the case of a man who, with the sanction of the local authority and at the request of the Government, is in a munition works or in the service of the Government, and to provide that the period of time he is so employed shall be included for the purpose of the superannuation fund as if he had been employed in the service of the local authority.

I think my hon. Friend has overlooked the definition Clause—Clause 18. Clause 18 provides a much better interpretation of what is intended by "His Majesty's Forces." It provides:—

"For the purposes of this Act service in connection with naval or military operations which the Local Government Board consider may properly be treated in the same manner as actual naval or military service shall be deemed to be service with His Majesty's Forces."

In addition to that, I have an Amendment down that will give it even a wider expression.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Further Amendments made: In Subsection (3), at the beginning, insert the words "Nothing in."

In Sub-section (3) leave out the words "not apply in respect of any teacher to whom," and insert instead thereof the words "affect the provisions of the Elementary School Teachers (Superannuation) Acts, 1898 to 1912, or of."

In Sub-section (3), leave out the word "applies."—[ Mr. Hayes Fisher. ]

Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

In reference to the Amendment which stands in my name later on, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will make some statement on the subject so that we may know what we shall do.

I had an opportunity of consulting my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. As my hon. Friend opposite knows, the police have always been dealt with by separate legislation. My hon. Friend the Home Secretary and I both think it more satisfactory that they should be dealt with in the same way in regard to this point. I quite appreciate that the point raised by my hon. Friend is a point that must be dealt with, but my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is about to introduce a Bill after the Recess, and I think that it will be more convenient that this particular point should be dealt with in that Bill rather than in the Bill now before the Committee.

I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. In that case I shall not move the Amendment to Clause 19 which stands in my name.

Question put, and agreed to.

Part II

Miscellaneous Administrative Provisions

CLAUSE 4.—(Allowances to Persons Appointed as Temporary Substitutes.)

Where a person in receipt of a superannuation allowance under the Poor Law Officers' Superannuation Act, 1896, is appointed or employed as a temporary substitute for any officer or servant by any authority to whom that Act applies, the provisions of Section six of that Act shall be construed so as not to deprive him of any such allowance whilst he continues to hold such temporary appointment or employment.

I beg to move, after the figures "1896,"' to insert the words "or any other superannuation Act or scheme."

This is a small Amendment, the object; of which is to cover the case of private Acts. For instance, the Camberwell Act of 1900 contains practically the same provisions as the Act of 1896, and it is desirable to make these provisions apply to the case of those who receive payment under a private Act. I am not sure that the words are inserted in the right place, because the last part of the Section refers to the provisions of Section 6 of the Poor Law Officers' Superannuation Act, which is not applicable here, but the Government could insert some words.

There is no need for those words. The assumption of duties other than those of Poor Law officers generally takes place in entirely different circumstances. I am not prepared to extend this Clause to other than Poor Law officers. I might get into grave difficulty if I were to extend it to other public servants.

Amendment negatived.

Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

I do not quite understand the object of this Clause. Apparently if it passes a person in receipt of a superannuation allowance of £150 a year might be asked to take up a position the salary of which was £150 a year, and might receive both the superannuation allowance and the salary of £150 a year, while the person who was in receipt of the £150 a year salary for this position was serving with the Crown and might be receiving £75 a year, or something of that sort, from the ratepayers' money, so that the ratepayers might have to make two payments to one particular officer. If that is so, I do not see why it is necessary to accept the Clause, which would impose further expense on the ratepayers. My right hon. Friend on the Second Reading said that there might be a man in receipt of the superannuation allowance who would not come back and do work unless he got something additional for it. I think that is probably so. But suppose that this Clause were not inserted, then what is to prevent an arrangement being made by the guardians and the person in receipt of the superannuation allowance who is required to come back and do some work? If this Clause is put in such a man will say, "I am entitled to the whole of my superannuation allowance, and I shall want my pay in addition to that. If I do not get it I shall not come back." I should like some explanation on that point.

I am a little frightened when I find myself in agreement with the right hon. Baronet. But I am bound to say that I have the same anxiety that he has expressed. What I want to ask is whether in practice this Clause will work out so as to make it necessary to pay a man his superannuation allowance and also to pay him for the work which he is called on to do? If a gentleman who retires from the public service with a pension or superannuation allowance comes to do work in an emergency, he ought not to be better off than ever he was in his life. He ought to be paid fully for the work which he comes forward to do, but surely some sacrifice may reasonably be asked from him, as it is from practically everybody else who is trying to serve the State to-day. We have had a great deal of public dissatisfaction with regard to the police, who claim the full superannuation in addition to the full pay of policemen when they are called back and the contrast between their good fortune and the lesser good fortune of other persons is noted by the public. Therefore I am not quite sure what would be the full effect of this, and I would be very grateful for an assurance on the point.

I hope that the effect of this will be that any man who has got a pension will not have that pension touched or forfeited, even temporarily, in any way. All persons who have pensions are very touchy on this, or on anything that touches their pension. If a man with a pension of £50 a year is being asked to do the work of a position for which the usual salary is £75, then leave his pension of £50 untouched and give him the remaining £25 as salary.

This Clause is not of wide application, but it will be of very useful application in a few cases. We may have a superannuated officer who belongs to a fairly well-to-do union, and has retired on a pension of £100 a year. He has a perfect right to enjoy that pension in the country, perhaps in some poor union. That poor union has an officer who desires to go to the front and fight for his country, and that poor union says to this man, who is well known in the district, "Do this work temporarily. We are very poor down here, but we can afford you, say, £20 or £30 a year." The man with a pension of £100 a year, being a public-spirited man says, "I do not care about more work. I have retired, but I am quite willing to take this job for a time at, say, £20 a year, but you cannot expect me to do that if the Act of Parliament says I have got to drop my superannuation allowance of £100 a year." He cannot be expected to be in the position of being unable to take a smaller salary without dropping the larger emolument, or of being asked to do this extra work without extra pay. That is contrary to human nature. While this will not have a wide application, it will have a limited but useful application. I do not think that my right hon. Friend need apprehend any excessive payments, because I am quite sure that the local authority will have in mind what the Poor Law superannuated officer is receiving as a pension and will make a bargain accordingly.

If that is the only effect of the Clause, I have no objection to it. I gather from my right hon. Friend that the Poor Law Officers' Superannuation Act of 1896 has a Clause in it which would preclude a person from receiving a pension under that Act if he were taking further remuneration.

In those circumstances I shall not object.

Question put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 5.—(Provisions as to Notification of Diseases.)

Notwithstanding anything in the Infectious Disease (Notification) Act, 1889, or in any other Act, or in any Order of the Local Government Board, the following provisions shall have effect:—

( a ) The fee to be paid to a medical practitioner for a certificate or notification sent by him to a medical officer of health in respect of a case of disease to which the Act or Order applies, occurring in his private practice, shall be one shilling and no more;

( b ) Every case of infectious disease occurring in any building, tent, van, shed, or similar structure in the occupation of any of His Majesty's Forces, or of any person employed by or under the Admiralty, the Army Council, or the Minister of Munitions shall be notified to the medical officer of health of the district by the medical attendant if it would have been his duty to notify it if it had occurred elsewhere; and the local authority shall pay to the medical attendant (unless he is a medical officer or practitioner who holds a commission in any of His Majesty's Forces or is employed by the Admiralty or Army Council and is prohibited from engaging in private practice) for the certificate or notification a fee of one shilling, whether the case occurs in his private practice or otherwise.

I beg to propose, in paragragh ( a ), after the word "practice," to insert the words "shall be two shillings and sixpence, except in the case of measles, in which case it shall be."

I shall be glad to learn from the right hon. Gentleman in charge of this Bill the reasons which have induced him to propose to lessen the fee hitherto payable to medical practitioners for the notification of infectious diseases. I understand that this was a recommendation of the Retrenchment Committee, but I do not think that all the recommendations of the Retrenchment Committee have been adopted, and it does not seem to me, or to a large number of members of the medical profession, a sufficient reason for reducing the fee which they have hitherto received. I need scarcely remind the Committee that there is practically no class of His Majesty's subjects who have made greater sacrifices in this War than the members of the medical profession. A large number of the medical profession have given up incomes of considerable amount, and joined the Royal Army Medical Corps, and have consented to take a very small salary for a long period of time, while other practitioners are at the hospitals doing work for which they get practically nothing. Even at such a time as this, and in view of what medical men are doing, it seems hard to ask them to give up the very small fee which they have hitherto received for the notification of infectious diseases. I understand that my right hon. Friend has received a deputation of members of the medical profession with respect to this reduction of their fee, and he promised to confer with the President of the Local Government Board with a view to ascertaining whether the memorial containing the recommendations of the members of the deputation would be adopted. I would be glad to know what was the answer which the President of the Local Government Board has given to the suggestions made by the members of the medical profession. The reason assigned by my right hon. Friend on the Second Reading of this Bill was, as I understand, that the notification of diseases involved nothing more than clerical work. Members of the medical profession who have to notify infectious diseases object very much indeed to such a statement, which is a slur upon the manner in which they investigate these diseases before any notification is made.

I would point out that when a doctor has to make notification to the Local Government Board he must assign his reasons for his notification, and supply a scientific statement and complete diagnosis to be laid before the Local Government Board. That is very different from a mere formal statement as to the cause of any particular illness. So small a fee as 1s., as against the half-crown hitherto paid, is scarcely sufficient remuneration, and I venture to think that the practice of economy, where you want skilled labour or skilled professional opinion is, on the whole, very unwise economy. I do not know what the whole amount of the saving would be in this case, but if, as I understand, it is only a small amount, it certainly would seem to me the proper thing to pay a medical practitioner a sufficient fee for the labour he has to undertake. The case of measles differentiates itself from other infectious diseases on account of the greater ease with which it is diagnosed, and it is therefore that I have excepted it in my Amendment. In these circumstances I shall be glad if the right hon. Gentleman will explain a little more fully than he has done the reduction of the fee.

I am ready to join in any eulogy which my hon. Friend desires to pass upon our medical men for the splendid work they are doing not only abroad, but at home, in connection with our hospitals. I should be the very last person to wish to detract in any way from their labours, and I most certainly deeply regret that any words I have ever used in this House should have cast any slur whatever upon the medical profession. But I cannot think that any words of mine could be so interpreted. After all, this proposal is not the proposal of the Local Government Board. It sprang from the Retrenchment Committee, which we appointed to look into many things and to suggest various economies. One of the economies suggested was the reduction of the fee paid to medical practitioners from half-a-crown to 1s., for the notification of infectious diseases. I think it was they, and not I, who said that, "after all, almost the whole work involved is clerical labour." I quite admit, with my hon. Friend, that there is much more than clerical labour involved. First of all, there must be a complete diagnosis of a case before any medical practitioner can say what disease it is he has to notify. I give every credit to the doctors for doing their work fully and admirably. A doctor is not likely to notify either measles or tuberculosis, or any other infectious disease unless he has made a proper diagnosis. But he has to make that diagnosis for the patient, and he cannot tell how to treat the patient until he has made the diagnosis. He must go fully into the case, he must ascertain what the disease is, what is its nature, and the clerical labour comes afterwards. It is not until he has fully ascertained what the disease is that the Act of Parliament calls upon him to make notification of it. The filling up is a mere simple form, and the Retrenchment Committee came to the conclusion that for the filling up of a form 1s. was sufficient, at all events during the period of the War. I have no doubt the fact was taken into account that these diseases which are to be notified are a growing list. Since the 1st January, 1916, we have added measles. I had the honour of receiving a deputation from the British Medical Association. They themselves stated that 1s. would be sufficient for notifying measles.

But the deputation added that the half-crown should be retained for all other diseases. I promised to consult my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board, to see whether there was any ground for differentiating diseases. We took the advice of the Departmental authorities, who said they cannot draw any clear line of distinction between the medical responsibility of notifying measles or any other infectious diseases. They seemed to think that the responsibility was the same. I also took the trouble of consulting our medical advisers, who said they could not differentiate between different diseases, and that if 1s. was sufficient for the notification of measles, then 1s. was sufficient for drawing up a simple form in regard to other diseases notified. I cannot myself ask the House to make any diminution in this economy which I am asking the House to adopt. It is not an economy of the Local Government Board, it is an economy suggested by the Retrenchment Committee, and adopted by the Department. I cannot hold out any hope to my hon. Friend who brought this Amendment forward that the President of the Local Government Board will forego this Clause. It must be retained, and the doctors, at all events for the period of the War, I hope will accept the 1s. instead of the fee of half-a-crown.

I should like to appeal to my right hon. Friend to reconsider the position between this and the Report stage. I really believe that this big reduction from 2s. 6d. to 1s. is false economy. I have had a long experience of local authorities, and I know that there has been a very larg reduction in infectious diseases that used to be prevalent in our towns, especially our large towns, and I think very great credit is due to the prompt notification of these diseases by medical men. I know of one case in one town where the want of proper notification of an outbreak of small-pox cost the local authorities no less than £35,000 to stamp it out. This proposal to reduce the fee is very false economy, and may have a tendency to produce very great discouragement among the doctors, even though the fee is reduced in war time. I could under- stand possibly a reduction to 1s. 9d., or something of that sort, but to make a reduction of 1s. 6d. will, I believe, have a tendency to deter medical men from prompt notification of these diseases. It is very essential, especially in regard to some of these more serious diseases such as small-pox and typhoid fever, that the doctors should at once after they have discovered a case notify it to the medical officer of health, so that prompt action may be taken. This is going to create great dissatisfaction among the medical men, and may cause them to be less prompt in their work. I believe the Local Government Board and all bodies that look after the public health are very exacting in regard to work which has for its object the maintenance of the public health, and I believe that the reduction which is proposed would turn out to be very false economy.

I think the statement of my right hon. Friend is very unsatisfactory to the medical profession, and that it is not fair to put all the blame on the Retrenchment Committee, who have strained at a gnat like this and swallowed a camel. The multiplication of work upon the medical profession owing to the passing of certain legislation in this House, the multiplication of forms and the returns they have to make has rendered their professional life particularly onerous, and their labours constant and anxious. They are called upon to make returns of all sorts for this small charge of 2s. 6d. Surely, that is not too much to give for such work, and I cannot understand the Local Government Board in reducing the fee to the low rate of Is., especially at a time when the medical profession are making greater sacrifices than any other body of people in the country. In view of the fact that they have made these great sacrifices, and that many of them having given up their professions and large incomes, I submit it is false economy on the part of the Local Government Board to pay any attention to such a miserable recommendation as that which comes from the Retrenchment Committee.

7.0 P.M.

It is very much to be regretted that the medical advisers of the Local Government Board should differ from the bulk of the medical profession, and I certainly suggest to my right hon. Friend that he should rather accept the opinion of the representatives of the medical profession than that of his own medical advisers. In a letter to my right hon. Friend, from the British Medical Association, the writer says:

"I am instructed to state that the Association cannot approve of the suggestion of the Retrenchment Committee that the fee of 2s. 6d. allowed for medical practitioners' notification of infectious diseases should be reduced to 1s., and protest strongly against the assumption that the notification of diseases involves no more than clerical labour."

I am very glad that my right hon. Friend, as he pointed out, is not in any way to blame for that expression. Having heard the expressions of opinion of many Members of this Committee, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be willing to consult once more the President of the Local Government Board and see whether some compromise cannot be made which is likely to satisfy the majority of the medical practitioners still left in the country.

Amendment negatived.

Amendments made: In paragraph ( b ) leave out the words "or practitioner."

Leave out the words "or is employed by the Admiralty or Army Council and is prohibited from engaging in private practice."—[ Mr. Hayes Fisher. ]

I beg to move, in paragraph ( b ), after the word "shilling" ["a fee of one shilling"], to insert the words "and no more."

The fee which is referred to here is given for the first time, and therefore it is not necessary to insert the words "and no more." Where the words occur in paragraph ( a ) the reference is to a fee which was previously larger.

I accept the right hon. Gentleman's explanation, and ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed, That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

I really do think we ought to have some explanation from the right hon. Gentleman as to whether he is prepared to consider the protest that has been made against this Clause. Several Members have protested against this reduction. Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the matter between this and the Report stage. I understand this money is paid by the State and if the fees were paid by the local authorities there would be no suggestion on the part of the Retrenchment Committee to reduce the amount. It is a question whether the members of that Committee had really the experience to guide them in this work. I say advisedly if this great work of sanitation is going to be maintained in our towns where great outbreaks occur—

The hon. Member is making the same speech as that which he made a few minutes ago on the Amendment.

I am not making the same speech; I am only trying to impress on the right hon. Gentleman the seriousness of the matter. I think I have the right, and I claim the right to do so, on the Motion that the Clause stand part. Knowing what I do of the importance of sanitation and of the reporting of these cases, I think that this is a grave error on the part of the Local Government Board, and it must be a reactionary Board or otherwise it would never agree to such a proposal.

I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to consult with the President of the Local Government Board. There really is very strong objection to the adoption of this Clause. One does not wish to divide on the Motion, and therefore I simply appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to consult once more with the President.

Of course I shall report the proceedings of to-night on this Bill generally, and particularly on all matters of importance; and where any division of opinion has been expressed. I shall report that there was a difference of opinion in this particular case, which has been well put by my hon. Friend and others, but judging by the view of the right hon. Gentleman when I conversed with him on the subject not long ago, and of his attitude on that occasion, I am not at liberty to hold out any hope that he will change his mind.

Question put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 6.—(Use of Local Authority's Premises and Officers for Military Purposes)

Subject to the approval of the appropriate Government Department, the use of any institution, building, or premises belonging to any local authority for the accommodation of sick or wounded sailors or soldiers, or for other purposes in connection with the present War, and any expenditure incurred in connection therewith, shall be deemed to be and always to have been lawful, and the service or employment of any officers or servants of a local authority in or about an institution so used or otherwise, with the consent of the local authority, in connection with the present War shall be deemed for all purposes to be and always to have been service or employment under that local authority.

I beg to move to leave out the words "Subject to the approval of the appropriate Government Department."

I move this Amendment on behalf of the hon. Member for the Everton Division of Liverpool (Sir J. Harmood-Banner). The point is this, that local authorities early in the War were forced to make arrangements in the interests of local recruiting. Do the words of the Clause mean that the arrangements had to be made originally with the approval of the appropriate Government Department, or that the local body can obtain that sanction now. It would be very difficult now for them to get the assent of some Department for action taken to assist the military authorities. Speaking from my own experience I was authorised to raise a local battalion in Salford, and that went on until eventually we raised a whole brigade. In order to do that we had to get the consent of the local authorities to use certain of their premises. That was all done with the cognisance of the authority, whether they formally approved or not. It seems to be absurd that when the State has enjoyed the advantage of those services and enrolled those battalions should turn round on the local authority and say, "You must get the consent of the appropriate authority." Therefore I propose to leave out the words mentioned.

Is this intended to apply to every local authority, because if so it will seriously inconvenience the movement and accommodation of troops. The Local Government Board as such have no control whatever over public buildings belonging to municipalities. They may have in the case of rural district councils. I do not know if they have over schools. To say that local authorities would have to come to London to obtain sanction of the Local Government Board before they could lend any of their buildings for the use and accommodation of troops or otherwise would be, in my opinion, to impede very much the movement of troops. I know that in the case of my own town we have been notified that certain troops are coming and we have given the use of our borough hall to the military. They have had the accommodation and have had several hundred men sleeping. Is the proposal that where a matter is urgent the local authority should have to come to London for sanction? The Local Government Board has really no control over the buildings. There is no debt upon some of those buildings. It seems to me that we are simply going to tie the local authorities in a knot of red tape in the hands of the Local Government Board, and I am certain there will be very strong indignation. Therefore I hope there will be some modification of the Clause; in any case we want a further explanation.

I hope that the appeal of the hon. Member will not be listened to at all. He has not been very successful in his appeals this afternoon, and I hope he will not be on this occasion.

Oh, yes, all of mine except one have been accepted. The real point here is a very important one. It is that local institutions and premises may, in a light-hearted and perhaps ultra-patriotic way, be given, over to the Army people by local authorities and then retained for an undue length of time, greatly to the damage of certain services. That has actually happened in many cases with regard to schools, and when the Board of Education have sent down inspectors it has been found that there were other premises which would have been just as suitable and the use of which would have caused less inconvenience. I hope the Clause, as it stands, will be retained, and that the Secretary to the Local Government Board will not even promise to reconsider the matter.

Does this Clause mean that all such action up till now will require approval and that such action in the future will not? Would my right hon. Friend be willing to agree that all such action up till now should have the sponge passed over it, but that such action in the future should be subject to the approval of the appropriate Government Department, if the Government think that that is necessary to avoid extravagance? In many cases leave has been given quite properly. The difficulty is that it has sometimes to be done almost at a moment's notice, and it is very difficult to communicate with any Government Department.

I will look into the Clause and see whether it is necessary to recast it. There are two objects to be secured. First of all, it is desirable to legalise the present position. After all, it is possible that some ratepayers might take objection at some time or other, or that some doubt might be cast on the legal position of those who have authorised the use of certain buildings or institutions. Then I hold the opinion very strongly that it is desirable that the approval of the appropriate Department should be obtained in future, at all events, for the use of many of our institutions, such as Poor Law institutions. The Local Government Board can very well know what Poor Law institutions can conveniently be handed over to the military and what arrangements ought to be made for those who, under ordinary circumstances, would have the user of those institutions. Moreover, the appropriate Department—which would not always be the Local Government Board; it might be the Board of Education in regard to schools—might have something to say as to the financial arrangements. There should be some kind of protecting authority in these cases. But I cannot exactly see why we should ask great municipalities to come and get our approval for the loan of their town hall, or municipal offices, or buildings of that kind, which they might desire, possibly at a moment's notice, to lend for naval or military purposes. If we can secure these points, we shall have accomplished our purpose. I will look into the matter and see if that can be done.

After the right hon. Gentleman's explanation, subject to one word, I shall be willing to withdraw the Amendment. I understand that the suggestion is that on Report a Clause will be brought up exempting what has been done in the past, but providing that for the future the consent of the appropriate Department must be procured. I should like to enter a caveat on that point. There must be some margin allowed for cases of emergency. The emergency is not so likely to happen now as in the past, but occasions may arise, such as when troops come into a town, when the local authority cannot possibly get the consent of the appropriate Department in time.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I understand that the next two Amendments are not to be moved, the hon. Member being satisfied with what he has already achieved.

May I say, in order to save time, that I consider both these Amendments to be drafting Amendments, and I am willing to accept them.

Amendments made: After the word "or" ["building or"] insert the word "other."

Leave out the words "an institution," and insert instead thereof the words "any institution, building, or other premises."—[ Mr. King. ]

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 7.—(Expenses of Metropolitan Asylums Board.)

All expenses of the managers of the Metropolitan Asylum District incurred after the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and sixteen (including expenses in connection with the reception and relief of Metropolitan casual paupers, but not including expenses incurred in connection with agreements made under Section thirty-nine of the National Insurance Act, 1913), shall be defrayed as if they were expenses incurred for the purposes of Section thirty-one of the Metropolitan Poor Act, 1867, and notwithstanding anything in that Act or any other enactment none of the said expenses shall be repayable out of the Metropolitan Common Poor Fund.

I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to add the words,

"Provided that the masters of the bench, treasurer, governors, or other body, or persons having the chief control or authority of the Inner Temple, Middle Temple, Lincoln's Inn, and Gray's Inn shall contribute annually to the managers of the Metropolitan Asylums District such sums as the Local Government Board may certify to be equal to the sum properly applicable to the expenses of the said managers out of the sums contributed by the authorities aforesaid to the Metropolitan Common Poor Fund for the year ending on the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and fifteen."

I am obliged to the hon. Member for putting that point. I shall be glad of assistance on the matter, as I confess that my knowledge does not extend to the question of how these institutions come in.

I should say that the Amendment was in order, for this reason: Undoubtedly the Inns of Court are affected. They are, indeed, benefited by the new arrangement proposed in Clause 7. It is a very slight advantage which they enjoy under the new method of calculation, but they do enjoy a slight advantage. Therefore I believe the Amendment would be within the scope of the Bill.

That is a matter of argument, not a matter of order. The hon. Member for Paddington is so accustomed to questions of procedure that I should expect any Amendment standing in his name to be in order.

This Amendment is intended to meet a small gap in the Clause. The Clause sets up a new method of charging upon the unions the expenses of the Metropolitan Asylums Board. It is a simpler method than the present, but it will effect practically the same object, while saving a good deal of clerical labour and expense. It has the incidental result of relieving the Inns of Court from an annual payment of £450 which, under the existing arrangement, they pay to the Common Poor Fund. It is not a voluntary contribution as my hon. Friend seems to think; it is one that they pay under an Act of Parliament. I need not go into that point, as it involves a legal technicality, but the fact that they are relieved of this payment is undoubted. I do not see why they should be relieved, and I suggest that the difficulty should be met in the manner proposed by the Amendment. It is rather important that this small defect should be remedied, because the altered procedure is one which might very well be retained permanently. It has often been advocated by the Local Government Committee of the London County Council. I think my right hon. Friend will bear me out as to the effect of the Clause, and I hope he will be able to accept the Amendment.

My hon. Friend has well explained the meaning of the Amendment. Undoubtedly the Inns of Court, which are liable to be rated with the rest of the Metropolis for the Metropolitan Common Poor Fund, will by this new method of calculation derive some slight advantage. But I am reluctant to accept the Amendment, because the Inns of Court, contrary to what has been done in regard to boards of guardians all over London and other authorities affected by this change, have never been consulted at all. It is a very small matter indeed, and we do not think it necessary to insert such a proviso in this Bill. Undoubtedly, as my hon. Friend says, this new arrangement will probably give such satisfaction, doing away as it does with almost endless clerical labour, that it or some other method securing the same object may be made permanent after the War is over. It would then be necessary to take into consideration the position of the Inns of Court, and possibly some such provision would have to be made, but I do not think it would be advisable to insert the provision in this Bill.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 8.—(Calculation of Sums Repayable to Guardians out of Common Poor Fund) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 9.—(Steorotyping of Pauper Lunatic Grants in London.)

The amount payable by the London County Council to a board of guardians on account of pauper lunatics in respect of the year ending the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and sixteen, or any subsequent year, shall, instead of being calculated in manner provided by paragraph ( f ) of Sub-section (2) of Section twenty-four of the Local Government Act, 1888, be the standard amount—that is to say, the amount payable to that union calculated in accordance with the said paragraph in respect of the year ending the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and fifteen.

I beg to move to leave out the words "the London" ["the London County Council"], and to insert instead thereof the word "a."

I am sorry to intervene before my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk (Mr. Turton), who has a somewhat similar Amendment on the Paper. I may say that this is a matter which, as to whether I press it or not, will depend upon the reply of the right hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board. I have not fully made up my mind. This is a very important Amendment, and it requires a certain amount of explanation. This Amendment, as I understand it, is one that is recommended by the Retrenchment Committee, because it will tend to save an immense amount of labour, and consequently money. The Clause, as drafted, only applies to the County Council of London. The object of the Amendment is to extend the benefit of the Clause to the whole of the country. Under the Act of 1888, Section 24, paragraph ( f ), the county council is under an obligation to make to boards of guardians a grant of 4s. per head for every pauper lunatic. These grants are charged to the Exchequer Contribution Account. The obligation on the part of the guardians is that when they make a claim they have to write out the name of each pauper lunatic, and this entails an enormous amount of labour and cost. The object of the Clause is to stereotype the number of pauper lunatics at the end of March, 1915. What I want to ask my right hon. Friend is this: Do I understand that under this Clause the number which at the end of March, 1915, in London stood at 7,451 pauper lunatics and in the country no less than 103,357 is to remain in future at that figure, though in 1916 there may be an increase of 200 in the first set of figures, which would make the number 7,651? Do I understand that the boards of guardians in London are to forego their claim for the extra 200, and by that means save the labour of writing? I cannot understand any boards of guardians accepting it upon any other principle than that the number is taken for granted as on 31st March, 1915, and that any variation in 1916 or 1917 would have to be made out by the county council. That is to say, they would save that number of written names and particulars. Is it the intention of the county council, or the intention of the Local Government Board, to stereotype the number of 7,451 so that it will be a continuous number, and show no increase in future even where there is an increase? If so, it will be a great advantage to apply this Clause to the whole country, and I beg so to move.

I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not accept this Amendment. Conditions in London in this matter are altogether different from what they are throughout the country generally. As the Mover of the Amendment correctly stated, the present system is that the county councils hand over to the boards of guardians in the country districts a sum of money equivalent to 4s. per head on the number of paupers in the asylum of that union. The proposal of the Amendment is that in future that sum handed over by the county council shall be based on the number of poor in the asylum during the year 1915—in fact, to stereotype the present system. I submit that that is objectionable from different points of view. Especially do I think that it would lessen the interest of boards of guardians in their pauper patients at the asylum. Every well - regulated board of guardians at present occasionally sends a visiting committee to the asylum to have a personal interview with the poor persons there in order to ascertain their condition, and, after consultation with the medical officer, to see whether or not they are fit for removal. The proposal would lessen that humane interest by the boards of guardians towards these poor afflicted persons under their care. Consequently, I think the present system is best. I would point out that, there is considerable fluctuation in the number of pauper lunatics in a particular district. Therefore, it is far better for each district to bear their proportion of the burden of these poor people, and to feel the present deep interest in them, rather than to stereotype the system, and so do something to lessen the humane interest at present felt in these poor pauper lunatics. There is another point of view, and that is that we who are guardians claim that the grant of 4s. per head is not sufficient, and we are waiting until pleasanter times come, and there is less financial strain on the country, for an increase of that grant. From every point of view, therefore, it is far better for the county councils to go on handing over to the boards of guardians, as at present, a sum equivalent to the actual number of their poor pauper lunatics, than it would be to have a fixed or stereotyped payment which would inflict a burden, it may be, upon the neighbouring union. I mean to say that the actual burden would not be adjusted to the union as at the present time. Therefore—I speak as president of the Poor Law Association—although I have not had time to consult fully with my colleagues, so far as I am able to ascertain the general feeling amongst boards of guardians is that they would prefer to continue under the present system rather than come under the stereotyped one suggested by the Amendment.

I cannot congratulate the Local Government Board on the lucidity of this Clause. After having listened to the explanation of two hon. Members, who are both experts on the subject, I still beg the right hon. Gentleman to tell us what is meant by the Clause. Perhaps the most light is thrown on the Clause, not by its own wording, or by the reference to the Act to which it refers, but by the marginal note which contains the singular words, "Stereotyping of pauper lunatic grants in London." That is an eliptical description which it is difficult to understand, and I confess I do not understand it. I regard the Clause with some misgiving. I know, as the hon. Member has told us, that it refers to the subject of pauper lunatics to whom the London County Council is bound by the Act of 1888 to make grants, and to pay it at the rate of 4s. per head per week for each pauper who is a lunatic and chargeable to the union, and whose keep does not exceed 4s., which is stipulated for. But what this Clause is going to do I cannot make out—

"The amount payable by the London County Council to a board of guardians on account of pauper lunatics in respect of 31st March, 1916, or any subsequent year shall, instead of being calculated in the manner provided in paragraph ( f ) of Sub-section (2) of Section 24 of the Local Government Act, 1888"

be something else. That is to say that the amount payable to that union calculated in accordance with the said paragraph—although we are previously told, apparently, that it was not to be calculated in accordance with that paragraph—is in respect of the year ending 31st March, 1915. I am quite willing to believe it is an improvement of the law, and I am quite willing to support it as such, but I want to know what it is all about! I regard with great misgiving the suggestion that the standard to be fixed should be in regard to the year ending March, 1915 I remember that in the same Act, I think it was Section 43, the London County Council incurred certain obligations in relation to paupers of the county council at 4d. per day, for each indoor pauper, and the amount to be paid was calculated on an average of indoor paupers for the three years preceding the commencement of the Act. That was nearly thirty years ago, and the London County Council have been paying on that standard ever since. It has been a calamity for London. It never ought to have been. It ought to have been stopped at any time, but the legislature has never had any time to bother with it. I am afraid, if we fix a standard for the year ending 31st March, 1915, that may itself become an evil, and it is a matter about which we should be very cautious I know that the suggested evil may be considerably lessened by the fact that this is a temporary measure and only lasts for the War, which I hope will be something less than thirty years. But I beg my right hon. Friend to expound the Clause so that a simple man may be able to understand it.

My hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Samuel) apologised for preceding me, but I am very glad to leave the matter in such able hands. In regard to my hon. Friend behind me (Sir J. Spear) certainly the very last object I had in putting down my Amendment was that we should lessen the humane interest that boards of guardians take in their pauper lunatics. But I cannot for the life of me see that any question relating to accounts can in any way lessen the interest that boards of guardians do take. A pauper has to be certified as a lunatic in the ordinary way. What we do hope for if the Amendment is carried is to lessen the large amount of writing that is put upon the clerk of the board of guardians, and the officers of the county council. Each separate pauper has to be set out with a full statement by the cleark of the board of guardians, and this has to be checked by the officers of the county councils. All that means a great deal of work in offices where the staffs are, at the present time, heavily depleted. All one asks is that if it is good for London to be saved this large amount of clerical work, is it not also equally fair for the county councils throughout the country? They are responsible for the district asylums and for the county asylums, and I hope my right hon. Friend opposite will see his way to allow this Amendment.

I should like to support in a sentence what my hon. Friend has said, but I cannot believe the hon. Member for Tavistock (Sir J. Spear) has really appreciated the very limited scope of this proposal. At the present time, as he knows—probably we all know—there is more work cast on the asylum officials of all kinds, and there is not a single county council in England which is not greatly depleted of its staff. Anything, therefore, that can be done during the War and for a year after to diminish the clerical work is something which should be urged on the Government.

I do not think my hon. Friend is quite so incapable of interpreting this Clause as he suggests. I have an idea he is as full of knowledge on this as he is on many other subjects that affect London and London ratepayers, and I hope, at all events, I shall be able to persuade him that, so far as London is concerned, it will effect very considerable economy in time and staff and money, and that no loss is likely in the least to occur to those in whom he is interested. He knows perfectly well the county council is bound to pay 4s. for every pauper lunatic charged to each particular union—that is to say, if the Exchequer Contribution Account allows them to pay that sum—but, in order to ascertain what sums are payable to particular unions, the most elaborate statistics have to be framed. The London County Council have the auditing of accounts, and clerical labour, statistics and information have to be given, all of which it is desirable to avoid under the extreme pressure of this period when all staffs are so depleted. After all, we have this safeguard: the county councils were called into conference, and so were the chairmen of all boards of guardians and the chairmen of finance committees. The conference took place at the Local Government Board, and one and all agreed that this was a very good system to adopt—at all events during War—that it would save labour, and that there would be no danger that anybody would lose any portion of the Grant to which an area or authority was hitherto entitled. That is my belief, and it is the belief of all those authorities who have been consulted in this matter. I think this is undoubtedly a very good method to make our calculations for London. I am a London Member myself, and I am not likely, I think, ever to part with any good thing for London or for London constituencies.

If there is an increase in pauper lunatics will the union receive the extra proportion?

They will receive a stereotyped Grant, but what I think my hon. Friend forgets is, there are various unions in London—one may receive a little more and one may receive a little less, but, after all, they are pretty shrewd observers of events, these local authorities. The boards of guardians have some knowledge of what is likely to happen, and they are thoroughly well satisfied with the year we have taken for a stereotyped year. There may be an increase in one case and there may be a decrease in another. Then come my hon. Friends representing provincial life in local matters and say that "what is good enough for London is good enough for us," and they say, "Cannot you extend this to the provinces?" I have just said that before we agreed to put this Clause into the Bill as regards London we had a conference with all the authorities concerned. It is a very different thing putting in a Clause agreed upon by all those who have some ground for being consulted and putting in a Clause when you have made no attempt whatever to consult either the county councils or the boards of guardians. I think it might be possible some day to have a Clause if the county councils and borough councils agreed with the boards of guardians, but I am not sure, from what I heard from my hon. Friend opposite, that there is likely to be any agreement, and that they would choose a particular year and take their Grants hereafter on a stereotyped basis. Another reason why I cannot apply it to the provinces is, after all, this measure is brought forward as an emergency measure and an economical measure, and I am advised that most of these claims in the provinces have been met already, and, therefore, we should not gain anything this year in that matter. I think under all these circumstances it would not be wise, particularly having regard to the fact that those authorities have not been consulted, to apply this particular Clause or this particular Bill to the Poor Law areas in the provinces. At the same time, I would make a suggestion to my hon. Friends that it might be worth while to have such a conference and to find out whether there is agreement, and if there were agreement between the county councils and the borough councils with the boards of guardians, then we might adopt some such measure as this, and so avoid or diminish labour during the War.

After the statement of my right hon. Friend, I could not undertake the responsibility of pressing this Amendment upon the Committee. It is a very important Amendment. I can quite appreciate the position of London, which has considered it, but if my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk (Mr. Turton) or myself were to undertake to press this Amendment and it were accepted, and then there was a large increase, or an increase, in the number of pauper lunatics to any particular union, and the grants were stereotyped for the year 1915, I am afraid we should get into trouble without obtaining their consent. Therefore, I put the Amendment down tentatively. I did receive a communication from an important official of the county council of which I am a member pressing the matter, but, after the explanation of my right hon. Friend, I am bound to say that I could not undertake the responsibility of this Amendment, and, therefore, I beg leave to withdraw it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

I have an Amendment to omit the Clause, not because I do not approve of it, but because I want to extend its operation. I want to insert a new Clause which stands in my name on the Paper. Clause 9 in the Bill stereotypes pauper lunatic grants in London which are paid to boards of guardians, as provided by paragraph ( f ), of Sub-section (2), of Section 24 of the Local Government Act, 1888, but it does not stereotype similar payments which are made to the special county account and also to the Common Council of the City of London, under paragraphs ( e ) and ( g )of the same Section. A great deal of expense would be saved if they were stereotyped as well. The City Corporation has been consulted in the matter, and I have a copy of a letter which has been written by the City Remembrancer to the Parliamentary Officer of the London County Council, pointing out that the matter might prejudice the City to some extent, but, having regard to the general object of the Clause, and to all the circumstances, he was authorised to inform him that the Corporation would not oppose the proposal standing in my name. I hope, therefore, that as the City Corporation have given their consent in a patriotic manner, and as an extension of the Clause will effect a substantial economy, my right hon. Friend will be willing to accept my proposal.

I am quite prepared to drop Clause 9 out of the Bill, and accept the Clause of the hon. Member as a new Clause.

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.

Clauses 10 to 12 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 13.—(Removal of Obligation to Make Certain Returns and Reports.)

(1) It shall be a sufficient compliance with the requirements of the Local Taxation Returns Acts, 1860 and 1877, the Municipal Corporations Act, 1882, and the Local Government Act, 1888, if a summary of the local taxation returns is laid before both Houses of Parliament instead of the abstract thereof required by those Acts.

(2) A board of guardians shall not be required to report to the Local Government Board the proceedings of its assessment committee or to make to that Board any return of the superannuation allowances and gratuities paid under the Poor Law Officers' Superannuation Act, 1896.

(3) It shall not be necessary to make out the accounts required by Sub-section (7) of Section one of the London (Equalisation of Rates) Act, 1894.

(4) It shall not be necessary to present to the Local Government Board the account under Part II. of the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1890, required by Section forty-four of that Act.

(5) Section six of the Births and Deaths Registration Act, 1836, which relates to the preparation of general abstracts of the number of births, deaths, and marriages by the registrar general, shall not be in force.

(6) It shall not be necessary for the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—

( a ) to convene meetings of the representatives of local fishery committees required by Section nine of the Sea Fisheries Regulation Act, 1888; or

( b ) to make the annual report to Parliament required by Section fifty-nine of the Small Holdings and Allotments Act, 1908, or to require county borough districts and parish councils to send to the Board reports of their proceedings under that Act.

Amendments made: In Sub-section (2) leave out the words "Board of Guardians" and insert instead thereof the words "Local Authority."

At the end of the Clause insert as a new Sub-section,

"(7) It shall not be necessary for a Metropolitan borough council to make the annual report of their proceedings or a list of the names and addresses of their members referred to in Section one hundred and ninety-eight of the Metropolis Management Act, 1855, as amended by subsequent enactments."—[ Mr. Hayes Fisher ].

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 14 to 16 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 17.—(Amendment of 5 and 6, Geo. 5, c. 76, s. 1, As to Casual Vacancies)

(1) Where at the date on which, but for the provisions of the Elections and Registration Act, 1915, the next statutory election would have taken place of the members of any council, board of guardians, body, or committee to which Section one of that Act applies, or may be applied, there was a vacancy amongst those members that vacancy may be filled in the manner provided by Sub-section (2) of Section one of that Act, with respect to casual vacancies required to be filled by election; and any person chosen to fill the vacancy shall hold office in the same manner in all respects as though his predecessor had remained in office until the date when the vacancy was filled.

(2) This Section shall be deemed to have had effect as from the passing of the Elections and Registration Act, 1915.

I beg to move to insert the following Sub-section: 8.0 P.M.

The point is quite a short one, and is a technical point. It is, shortly, whether for certain purposes the word "alderman" is included in the definition "councillor." I do not want to go into the legal argument, because it is not a satisfactory thing from the point of view of the House of Commons. The point, I understand, has been considered by the Local Government Board advisers, and a reply was given in the House of Commons which does not quite cover the point. The point is, where an election was due before November last year the Act applies that the holders of office shall go on for a year. The main Act also provides that the definition of "councillor" is to include "alderman." Now, in most of the local corporations they are elected for six years, and half retire each three years. It is conceivable, therefore, that an election might not be due last November, but in view of the fact that the whole of the council would be due to be elected last November, and in view of the fact that the definition Clause says "councillor" includes "alderman," the local authorities are in doubt, and have been advised there is doubt. Consequently they think no harm could be done by inserting the words as proposed in my Amendment, to make it quite clear they should apply to aldermen. It could do no harm to anybody, and would make it perfectly clear to all. This may not appear a very important point to the representative of the Local Government Board, but it is a very important matter from the point of view of local municipal politics, and it is a matter which has caused much doubt and uncertainty. At any rate, the Government could not do themselves any harm by accepting my proposal, which would make the position quite clear.

I agree that this proposal will clear up the point, and I am willing to accept it. I suggest, however, that the words "including a Metropolitan borough" be left out, as they are not necessary.

Amendment made to the proposed Amendment: Leave out the words "including a metropolitan borough."

Words, as amended, there inserted.

Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Part III.—General

CLAUSE 18.—(Interpretation.)

For the purposes of this Act the expression "local authority" means any person or body of persons who receive or expend the proceeds of any local rate and any other public body which the Local Government Board may determine to be a local authority, but overseers of the poor shall not be included except by direction of that Board:

Provided that where any such authority is a police authority it shall not, as such, be deemed, for the purposes of Part I. of this Act, to be a local authority.

In England and Wales a teacher, officer, or servant appointed by the managers of a public elementary school not provided by the local education authority shall, and a teacher, officer, or servant of an institution aided by a local education authority out of the proceeds of any rate, may, if that authority think fit, be deemed, for the purposes of this Act, to be an officer or servant of the local education authority concerned.

Where the Board of Education certify to the Local Government Board that it is expedient that this Act shall apply to any public educational institution, this Act shall apply thereto, notwithstanding any trust affecting the institution, as if the managers or other governing body of the institution were a local authority, and the teachers, officers, and servants of the institution were officers and servants of a local authority.

For the purposes of this Act service in connection with naval or military operations which the Local Government Board consider may properly be treated in the same manner as actual naval or military service shall be deemed to be service with His Majesty's Forces.

Except where the context otherwise requires the expression "allowances" means the separation allowances made to the wives and families and dependants of sailors and soldiers, and includes family allowances for soldiers living at their own homes in the United Kingdom.

The expression "civil remuneration" includes the salary or wages and other emoluments which the officer or servant would have been receiving if he had remained in the actual service of the local authority.

I beg to move, to leave out the words "not, as such."

The object of my Amendment is to include standing joint committees. I understand that it is intended to bring in a Bill, which will include all police authorities, to have the same authority as under this Bill. Having regard to these circumstances, perhaps it is not necessary to accept my Amendment, but I should like to have some statement that that is so, and I should also like to receive an assurance that the Local Government Board auditor will take no notice whatever of anything that may have been done by the standing joint committees until the Home Secretary has introduced the promised Bill.

It has already been stated that it is desirable that police authorities should be dealt with separately. They have always been dealt with by different measures, and we desire to pursue that course.

I should like an assurance that the Local Government Board auditors will take no action in regard to the standing joint committees. Under the circumstances, I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments made: After the word "Act" ["for the purposes of this Act service in connection with naval or military operations"], insert the words "or for such of them as may be specified by the Local Government Board."

Leave out the words "the Local Government" ["the Local Government Board consider"], and insert instead thereof the word "that."—[ Mr. Hayes Fisher. ]

I beg to move, after the words "United Kingdom" ["allowance for soldiers living at their own homes in the United Kingdom"], to insert the words

"The expression 'dependants,' when used in relation to an officer or servant of a local authority, includes such persons as the local authority shall ascertain to be wholly or in part dependent, or to have been wholly or in part dependent, as the case may be, upon the earnings of the officer or servant."

It is necessary that we should be very clear about what we are legislating for. I think it is necessary that some Amendments should be inserted which will define such expressions as "dependants," "soldier," "sailor," and "infectious disease." All these expressions need distinct and clear definition. I do not know whether I shall have the Solicitor-General with me in this matter, but let me point out the difficulty in regard to the word "dependants." When we were passing the National Insurance Act a few years ago we put in a definition of the term "dependants," and then we got to a definition which is practically reproduced in my Amendment. I am aware that the War Office in granting superannuation allowances has its own interpretation of "dependants," but in that case the term is often interpreted in such a way as to give considerable dissatisfaction, and I really think that if my definition of the words were accepted it would be entirely satisfactory, and it would make the meaning quite clear. By having practically the same wording as is contained in the National Insurance Act, I believe we should get a satisfactory solution of this question.

I really do not think that we require any further definitions of the words "dependants," "soldier," and "sailor," as they are already provided.

I beg to move, after the words "remained in the actual service of the local authorities," to add the words

"Except the context otherwise requires the expression 'soldier' includes every person who is subject to military law, and the expression 'sailor' includes every person who is subject to the Naval Discipline Act."

I am aware that we have the term "soldier" defined in the first Clause of this Bill, but I desire to call the attention of the Solicitor-General to the fact that the term "soldier" does not include an officer, and if you take, as you are taking, the word "dependants," I understand that by not accepting my Amendment that you are taking that term as understood by the Army. You cannot do that with regard to the term "soldier," because in the Army Act and its allied legislation the term "soldier" does not include an officer, and it seems to me quite possible that under this legislation, if a servant of a local governing body gets a commission, he is not included in the first Clause of this Bill. Of course, I shall not set up my own opinion against that of the Solicitor-General, confident as I am that I am generally right, but I hope he will accept this Amendment.

My hon. Friend seems to think it is necessary to define the term "soldier" and "sailor" in order to make clear the meaning of Clause 1, but he will not find the word "soldier" or "sailor" in that Clause, I think it is only to be found in Clause 6, and its meaning is fairly well understood.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I had down an Amendment the object of which was to provide that any department of a corporation should be treated as having the same right as a corporation itself. I am told that that is so, but I should like to have an assurance upon that point.

So far as I am able to ascertain, I think my hon. Friend is right, and the smaller includes the greater.

The Glasgow Corporation had some doubt as to whether a tramway department or the fire department, if they incurred certain liabilities in respect of their employés, would have the same right as the public authority as defined by this Bill.

If those departments are acting on behalf of the council, they are acting on behalf of the council, and within their powers, their acts will be treated as the acts of the authority.

Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 19.—(Application to Scotland.)

In the application of this Act to Scotland the following provisions shall have effect:

(1) References to the Local Government Board shall be construed as references to the Secretary for Scotland or to such Scottish Department as for any particular purpose of this Act may be designated by him, references to the Board of Education shall be construed as references to the Scotch Education Department, references to public educational institutions shall be construed as references to State-aided educational institutions, and references to the Local Taxation

(2) The Secretary for Scotland may, during the continuance of this Act, by order modify with respect to any audit of the accounts of a local authority the enactments as to publication of notice of the audit and of the abstract of accounts and any report of the auditor:

(3) Any grant payable under any statutory enactment to local authorities in Scotland out of the Local Taxation (Scotland) Account shall, during the continuance of this Act, if the Secretary for Scotland by order so prescribes, be allocated and distributed in manner provided by the said enactments respectively on the basis of the last allocation and distribution of the same before the passing of this Act.

Amendment made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "institutions" ["State-aided educational institutions"], insert,

"a reference to the Elementary School Teachers (Superannuation) Acts, 1898 to 1912, and to the Elementary School Teachers (War Service Superannuation) Act, 1914, shall be construed as a reference to the superannuation scheme for teachers made under Section fourteen of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1908, and to the Education (Scotland) (War Service Superannuation) Act, 1914, respectively."—[ Mr. McKinnon Wood. ]

Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 20.—(Application to Ireland.)

In the application of this Act to Ireland the following provisions shall have effect:

(1) References to the Local Government Board shall be construed as references to the Local Government Board for Ireland, and references to the Local Taxation Returns Acts, 1860 and 1877, shall be construed as references to sub-division (5) of Article twenty of the

(2) It shall not be necessary to include in or append to the annual report of the Local Government Board for Ireland the statements as to orders and directions in respect of outdoor relief required by Section twenty-one of the Poor Relief (Ireland) (No. 2) Act, 1847, or the statement as to audit of union accounts required by Section twenty of the Poor Relief (Ireland) Act, 1849.

(3) It shall be a sufficient compliance with the requirements of Section twenty-nine of the Poor Relief (Ireland) Act, 1847, if a general statement as to the expenditure on the relief of the poor and the total number relieved in Ireland is laid before Parliament instead of an account of the expenditure and number relieved in each union.

I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to add the following Sub-section:—

"(4) Sub-section (1) of Section one of the Poor Relief (Ireland) Act, 1914, shall be amended by the insertion of the words 'or for the better administration of the Poor Relief (Ireland) Acts, 1838 to 1900,' after the words 'present war,' and by the omission of the words 'for the said purpose.'"

Under the Emergency Bill passed in 1914 it was proposed that the Local Government Board and boards of guardians had the right to amalgamate workhouses, and this Amendment deals with that power. I may say that this proposal has the full concurrence of the Local Government Board in Ireland.

Amendment agreed to.

It being a Quarter past Eight of the clock, and there being Private Business set down by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means, under Standing Order No. 8, further Proceeding was postponed, without Question put.

Private Business

NORTH BRITISH RAILWAY (Substituted) BILL.—(By Order)

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

I have no desire to delay the progress of this Bill, at any rate, at this stage. It contains a number of provisions, but nothing, so far as I can see, of a very vital character. There is, however, one Clause on which I desire to say a word. Clause 23 gives the company power to take over an existing cartage company, and, as I am informed, the Bill, as agreed, also gives them power to extend the operations of that firm, and, indeed, to enable them to enter into competition with private cartage companies. This is obviously a question which ought to be thrashed out in Committee, and I only raise it now in order to ask if it would be possible for the Chairman of Ways and Means to give us an assurance—I am sure he is aware that there is very strong feeling in regard to it in Scotland—that this special matter will be brought under the attention of the Committee. I think the right hon. Gentleman has power to do that if he is satisfied that it is a matter to which the Committee's attention should be called.

I certainly most readily can give that assurance; in fact, in the ordinary course of my duty it would be done. It is quite true that the powers asked in that Clause with regard to Scotland, at any rate, are rather exceptional, and I shall make a point of asking the Chairman of the Committee appointed to deal with the Bill to give special attention to the matter, and, of course, it will be dealt with. Powers of that kind are not passed unless there is a complete case made out for them to the satisfaction of the Committee.

I am pleased that the Chairman of Ways and Means has given us an assurance on this point, and, of course, if the matter is not dealt with satisfactorily we can raise the question again on the Third Reading.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and referred to the Examiner of Petitions for Private Bills.

Local Government (Emergency Provisions) Bill

Considered in Committee.

CLAUSE 20.—(Application to Ireland.)

Postponed proceeding resumed on Clause, as amended.

Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 21.—(Short Title and Duration.)

(1) This Act may be cited as the Local Government (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1916.

(2) This Act, except the provisions of Section two and three thereof, shall have effect only during the continuance of the present War and afterwards for such period or periods (if any) not exceeding one year as the Local Government Board may fix; and the Board may fix different periods for different provisions of the Act.

Amendments made: In Sub-section (2), leave out the word "and" ["This Act except the provisions of Sections 2 and 3 thereof"].

After the word "three," insert the words "and sixteen."—[ Mr. King. ]

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

NEW CLAUSE.—(Sanction of Expenditure under 6 Geo. 5, c.)

The contributions made by a local authority towards the administrative expenses of a local or district committee under Section two of the Naval and Military War Pensions Expenses Act, 1916, shall be subject to the sanction of the Local Government Board.

Clause brought up, and read the first time.

I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."

This Clause is introduced in consequence of some criticism that took place in another place on the provisions of the Naval and Military War Pensions Act, 1916, enabling local authorities to rate themselves for the administrative purposes of that Act. There was some criticism directed towards enforcing some kind of economy on local authorities in some form or another. I do not personally think that there is any need for enforcing such economy on local authorities, but at the same time if it is desired that the Local Government Board should have power to sanction any expenditure incurred by local authorities, we are ready to take that authority, and in accordance with some agreement come to I have put down this new Clause.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause read a second time, and added to the Bill.

The next Clause standing in the name of the hon. Member for Somerset (Mr. King)—"Power for Local Government Board to make Orders with respect to treatment of venereal disease in Poor Law infirmaries "—is outside the scope of the Bill, and the same remark applies to the further new Clauses standing in the name of the same hon. Member—"Amendment of 7 Edw. 7, s. 1 (5),"—"Power for local authorities to supply certain drugs to duly qualified medical practitioners," "Amendment of 30 and 31 Vic, c 106, s. 22," and "Provisions relating to statistics from hospitals and Poor Law infirmaries."

NEW CLAUSE.—(Calculation of Amounts Payable in respect of Pauper Lunatics.)

The amounts payable or transferable by the London County Council under Sub-section (2) of Section twenty-four of the Local Government Act, 1888, on account of pauper lunatics in respect of the year ending the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and sixteen, or any subsequent year, shall, instead of being calculated in manner provided in paragraphs ( e ), ( f ), and ( g ) of that Sub-section, be the amount payable or transferable in accordance with the said paragraphs in respect of the year ending on the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and fifteen.

Clause brought up, and read the first time.

I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."

We have agreed to accept this Clause in substitution for Clause 9, which has been struck out.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause read a second time, and added to the Bill.

The first of the new Clauses, standing in the name of the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton Division (Mr. Turton) ( Audit Stamp Duty ), is outside the scope of the Bill.

Bill reported, as amended, to be considered to-morrow (Wednesday).

Education (Provision of Meals—Ireland) Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

This is a small Bill to amend the Act of 1914. The amount of money provided under that Act has been short for some time, and the position becomes worse and worse every day as provisions tend to rise in price. We propose to make the limit of the rate 1d. instead of ½d.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Tomorrow.

The remaining Orders were read and postponed.

Military Service

Local and Appeal Tribunals (Scotland)

Whereupon Mr. MACLEAN (Deputy-Speaker), pursuant to the Order of the House of the 22nd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

I am afraid nobody expected that the House would adjourn quite so soon, and, therefore, the Minister who is concerned with the point I wish to raise is not in his place at the moment. I presume, however, he will be almost at once. In raising a question one day last week with regard to the action of the chairman of the tribunal of the Aberdeen district I called attention, to the case of Alexander Rattray, who was brought before that tribunal and was granted temporary exemption after some remarks by the chairman, and it was those remarks to which I objected. I pointed out, on that occasion, that the chairman had used certain expressions which could not be defended. What occurred was this: The applicant had replied to certain questions that had been asked him, and the chairman then said:

"I do not know if many people will be very much disappointed if you go to the Army, because you know quite well that you would not pay me for what your sheep ate, and there are some others in the same position. I think the sooner you are at the front the better."

The point I made was a very simple one: that we are concerned here with the law being carried out, and I think the House will agree that it is neither proper nor right that, when a tribunal is considering whether or not a man shall be taken for the Army, personal considerations such as were raised in this particular case should have any effect at all upon the decision which the chairman of the tribunal, or any member of the tribunal, may come to. This man Rattray was a shepherd. We have been accustomed in this House to the cases of shepherds. There was the famous Dartmoor shepherd, an intimate friend of the Minister of Munitions, who occupied our attention a good deal. This man Rattray was a shepherd; he happened also to be the son of a widow. He has been working as a shepherd since he was fourteen years of age. Hon. Members know that the calling of a shepherd is among the exempted callings. This man has worked for a great number of different proprietors in various places in Scotland, and I can, if necessary, give their names, but I do not think it is needful to weary the House with a catalogue of that sort, although if the information is required I am open to give it. The Secretary for Scotland, however, is not here, and as it does not seem to me there is anyone on the Front Bench who can deal with this matter, I do not propose to go any further with it to-night, but I beg to give notice that I will raise it on the adjournment to-morrow, and if not tomorrow, then I will do so on Thursday.

I hardly know what line to take in view of the course pursued by my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge). I desire to present the other side of this case. If I am right in understanding that my hon. Friend will have an opportunity of raising the matter to-morrow, I shall prefer to take that occasion to reply to him.

Joint War Air Committee

Resignation of Lord Derby and Lord Montagu

I would like to call the attention of this House to the resignation of Lord Derby and Lord Montagu from the Joint War Air Committee. I should like to ask whether any importance is attached to these resignations. Some few weeks ago, when the country was exceedingly agitated, and justly so, with regard to the condition of our Air Services, the Government decided that some step was necessary, and instead of appointing a Board with power to deal with the position, they chose to appoint a Committee, which I understand had no power whatsoever. They answered the public clamour at that time by offering to them the name of Lord Derby. I understood that the Government attached a very great deal of importance to this appointment, and it was inferred that now the appointment had been made there would be a complete and satisfactory inquiry; that the complaints which had been made both in this House and outside would be given full and careful attention, and that the matter of our Air Services would be straightened out. Shortly after that time Lord Montagu, in the House of Lords, criticised our Air Services to some considerable extent, and, if I may be permitted to say so, he did it most ably. Shortly after that he was asked to join the Board. He did so, and the public felt that now Lord Montagu and Lord Derby were both taking a careful and an intelligent interest in the work of our Air Services, something would be done. It will be remembered that a very similar incident happened when the citizens of London resented most fearfully the raid over this City. On that occasion Sir Percy Scott was appointed. Sir Percy Scott has resigned, and I understand that both Lord Derby and Lord Montagu have resigned. I really think I am echoing the voice of the majority of the people of these islands when I ask the Prime Minister what he proposes to do? Does he propose to offer yet another name to the public? Does he propose to further postpone this very necessary and very urgent inquiry into the actual position of our Air Services, or does he propose to grant the Debate which was promised a considerable number of weeks ago? I regret having had to take up, as I have done since my somewhat recent entry into this House, so much of its time on the subject of this air problem, but when one considers the indignity to which the country is subjected, and the danger to which its citizens have been subjected in recent air raids, when one thinks it is only the good offices of the moon which are protecting us this night, and which will protect us for the next few nights, I hold that some sort of attention other than flinging names to the public, other than the giving of promises which have no foundation, should be paid to the matter by this House. On the question of the protection which some of our cities have been afforded I do not propose to dwell now. I am satisfied that to put up wooden guns in our towns, as a protection against Zeppelin raids, is as stupid and as foolish as it is expensive. If a wooden gun is put up and no Zeppelin comes, no useful purpose has been served. If a wooden gun is put up and a Zeppelin does come, the futility of the effort is immediately exposed and an angry and indignant public surrounds that gun while the Zeppelin sails off in safety. What useful purpose can be served by it? If you think for one moment that the German spy system in our country is so lax that it is not well aware when a wooden gun is mounted and when a service gun is mounted, it shows a considerable lack of appreciation by Ministers on the Front Bench of the actual position of the German spy system.

As far as this Committee is concerned, I would ask the Prime Minister to stop this fooling, to abolish this Committee, and to appoint in its place a board with powers to act, to try to inquire into all the allegations which I have brought against the services and the conduct of these services, and not to constantly postpone and put if off until the general interest will have evaporated, or at least they hope so, but to immediately grasp this nettle and get on with the business—get on with the question of developing our Air Services, which, undoubtedly, if not of the very greatest importance to-day, will be of very considerable importance in the immediate future. I consider that the Government have fooled with this question long enough, and that the public are right in demanding an immediate inquiry. I do not think that the joy bells of Berlin will ring so loudly when they see us taking this air menace seriously as they will if they see us continuing to fool with it as we have been doing up to now. I ask that the inquiry which the Under-Secretary of State for War promised me the Prime Minister will attend to shall be attended to. The time for further talk across this floor on the question of the Air Service is almost at an end, unless some definite action can be taken. We have plenty of aeroplanes in this country to act. I was promised in this House the other evening that I should be asked to advise, to act, to organise, and, if necessary, to lead some definnite action against our enemies. Since then I have heard nothing further. Valuable days are being wasted. I protest most fiercely against the total indifference, the regrettable indifference, and the insult which the Government is offering the people in the way they are dealing with the question not only of the air defence of our country but of the air war generally, so far as it has reference to the progress which our enemies are making in the air compared with the efforts we are making. I would ask the Prime Minister, if he cannot see his way clear to give a day before the Easter Recess for the discussion of this question, to appoint a board, if necessary, that has the power of immediate action, and I ask whether, in the opinion of this House, this air question is going to remain one purely of discussion—if the opinion of the country as expressed both by the Press, by public meetings, and public expressions throughout the country of general dissatisfaction at the apathy of our Government on the question of this Air Service is not justified?

So far as I am able to ascertain, no notice has been given to any of the usual representa- tives of the Government that this question was going to be raised. Of course, I am aware that the hon. Member is a new Member of this House and is, perhaps, not aware that according to, I will not say the customs, but at any rate the courtesies of this House, it is the rule to let it be known that a subject is going to be raised, in which case I can assure the hon. Member that the Minister responsible will be present in his place.

Notice has not been given that this question was going to be raised to-night, therefore I can only say that I regret that in the circumstances it is not possible to offer the hon. Member to-night the reply he desires.

May I say that I rose in my place to give notice that I intended to speak on the Adjournment on the air question, but although I rose twice I was not noticed; therefore I could not give the necessary notice.

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Nineteen minutes before Nine o'clock.