House of Commons
Wednesday, April 12, 1916
Private Business
South Metropolitan Gas Bill,
As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill,
"To confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board relating to Margate, Newbury, Totnes, the Middlesex Districts Joint Small-pox Hospital District, and the district of the Wath and Bolton Gas Board," presented by Mr. HAYES FISHER; supported by Mr. Long; read the first time; referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 22.]
PRISONERS OF WAR AT WITTENBERG CAMP (MISCELLANEOUS, No. 10, 1916)
Copy presented of Report by the Government Committee on the Treatment by the Enemy of British Prisoners of War, regarding the conditions obtaining at Wittenberg Camp during the Typhus epidemic of 1915 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Emigration Statistics (Ireland)
Copy presented of Emigration Statistics of Ireland for the year 1915 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Colonial Reports (Annual)
Copy presented of Report, No. 880 (St. Lucia, Report for 1914–15) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Shops Act, 1912
Copy presented of Order made by the Secretary for Scotland under the Act affecting certain classes of shops in the burgh of Huntly [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Oral Answers to Questions
War
St. George's Day (Army and Navy)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether there is any objection to men in the Navy wearing a rose on St. George's Day; and, if so, will he cause that objection to be removed for Sunday, 23rd April?
Commanders-in-Chief and commanding officers are authorised to grant permission to such officers and men as may desire it, to wear the national emblems on St. George's, St. Andrew's, St. Patrick's, and St. David's days.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether there is any objection to men in the Army wearing a rose on St. George's Day; and, if so, will he cause that objection to be removed for Sunday, 23rd April?
Under the King's Regulations special emblems may be worn on the headdress on anniversaries, provided authority has been obtained. I understand that the Northumberland Fusiliers are permitted to wear the rose on St. George's Day, but that no other regiments have asked for permission to do so.
If regiments ask for permission will it be granted?
It certainly will be favourablly considered.
Blockade
British Seizures of Mails on Neutral Ships
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when will the Papers be laid showing the British case for seizing mails on board neutral vessels?
The Memorandum regarding the examination of parcels and letter mails to which the hon. Member presumably refers was laid on the Table of the House on 6th April. Copies will be issued to Members at the earliest possible moment: the Memorandum, being in French, it is being translated as usual.
China
asked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether he can give the House any information regarding developments in the provinces of China?
The information which has reached us from China is unfortunately to the effect that the unrest in many of the provinces shows no sign of diminishing. It is impossible to give any comprehensive account of the political sentiments of individual provinces or to predict what will be the ultimate development of a situation which varies from day to day. I am glad to say there is, so far, no indication of any danger to foreign lives and property.
Serbia
Relief of Starving Population
asked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs (1) whether a commission of neutrals has offered to undertake the relief of the starving population in Serbia; whether there is any practicable method of administering such relief without the supplies falling into the hands of the enemy; if so, whether facilities will be granted for the transport of supplies and their distribution in Serbia; and (2) whether he has any information in respect to the treatment of the Serbian civil population by the enemy in occupation of the country; whether the reports of frequent massacres and of widespread starvation of the Serbians are confirmed from official sources of information; if so, whether any representations on the subject have been made to neutral Governments; and whether any steps are being, or can be, taken to alleviate distress in Serbia?
Serbia being in the occupation of the enemy, no official information can be received as to the conditions in that country. From unofficial information which has been received, it appears that the civil population have not been personally maltreated by the Austrian troops, though isolated outrages on the part of Bulgarian irregulars may quite possibly have occurred. The material, however, in our possession is too slight to justify representations to neutral Governments.
With respect to the relief of the distress in Serbia, His Majesty's Government are anxious to do anything possible consistent with paramount military considerations. But they desire to state emphatically that it is the duty of the occupying Powers to provide for the well-being of the population of the occupied country, and to protest against the callousness of those who, by deliberately starving the populations under their control, attempt to blackmail our Allies and ourselves into replenishing supplies which ought never to have been taken from the country.
Granting it is the duty of the occupiers of the territory, is it not possible for the Allies to do something to alleviate distress if it exists in Serbia?
We have had various proposals so far but none which in our view could possibly be complied with without serious military disadvantage.
May I ask if the declaration of policy just made is generally applicable or for application in Serbia only?
I do not think it fair for my hon. Friend to say I have made any general declaration of policy. I merely pointed out, on behalf of my right hon. Friend, that the people primarily and chiefly responsible for the well-being of the occupied territories are the occupiers themselves; so it is not fair for our enemies to turn round on us and say "because we are starving the population, therefore it is your business to relieve them."
Belgium
Relief Ships (Terms of Charter)
asked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs if he will state how many ships are regularly engaged in conveying food and supplies for the relief of the Belgians; how many of these are British, French, and neutral, respectively; what is the average rate at which the relief ships are chartered; whether he can state on what terms and charges German ships interned in neutral ports are or will be chartered on behalf of the Relief Commission; and whether the money to be paid to the German owners of such ships will be paid during or after the War, and by whom?
The question of employing German interned ships is tinder consideration, and a statement in regard to the ships employed by the Relief Commission is not at present in the public interest.
Considering the enormously enhanced value of the tonnage of ships what steps have been taken by the Government to prevent the Germans discounting in advance any bills of sale realisable at the end of the War?
I should like notice of that question. I am not a shipping expert.
Am I to understand that the Government have taken no steps?
I think my hon. and gallant Friend should accept my answer that the matter is under consideration.
Imperial Co-Operation With Allies
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will state what steps he has taken, beyond communicating to the Governments of the Dominions the Resolution of this House of 10th January, to carry out the intention of that Resolution and bring the whole strength of the Empire into co-operation with our Allies in a policy directed against the enemy?
The subject of my hon. Friend's question is engaging the attention of the Government in consultation with the Dominions, but there is no statement which I can usefully make.
Prohibition of Imports
asked the Secretary for the Colonies whether any representations have been received on behalf of the Governments of Canada, Australia, or other Dominions respecting the prohibition of trade products from importation into the United Kingdom; and whether any prohibition directed against the United Kingdom is in force in any of the Dominions?
I have had communications on particular oases from some of the Dominion Governments, and I have every reason to believe that they understand and appreciate the reasons connected with the tonnage situation which rendered the recent prohibitions of importation necessary. I am not aware of any prohibitions having been established in the Dominions for similar reasons.
Australian Metal Resources (German Control)
asked the Secretary for the Colonies what definite measures have been taken, in pursuance of the promises made on behalf of His Majesty's Government on Empire Day (April, 1915), on Dominion Day (July, 1915), and other dates, in order to secure, in co-operation with the Dominions, the complete elimination of the German control of the metal resources of Australia?
This question is one in which the Prime Minister of Australia is greatly interested, and it is under discussion with him.
Defence of the Realm Act
Prosecutions in Ireland
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, in view of his statement that the speaking of Gaelic is not criminal under the Defence of the Realm Act, he will explain the confirmation and enforcement of the fine imposed upon Mr. Chavasse for that offence, no other being charged, and with the imprisonment of Mr. Padraig O'Conaire for a week in Derry Gaol for that offence, no other being charged; whether in this case the arrest and imprisonment or the abandonment of the prosecution was due to the competent military authority; and whether the same freedom of speech is to be allowed in Gaelic as in English in future?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to him yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary for Ireland.
Is it not true, as stated in the question, that these two men have been punished for no other offence, or no other charge, than speaking the Irish language?
They were charged under the Defence of the Realm Act. They refused to obey orders given to them by the properly constituted military authorities.
Did they not give a full answer in Irish?
asked the Attorney-General for Ireland by what authority Mr. Padraig O'Conaire was arrested in county Donegal and kept in Derry Gaol for a week for speaking Gaelic, no other offence being charged; by what authority the prosecution was then abandoned; what amends will be made to Mr. O'Conaire; whether the fine and costs imposed upon Mr. Chavasse for a like offence, no other being charged, will now be refunded; and what measures are taken to prevent the recurrence of such cases and to secure the same freedom of speech in Gaelic as in English in future?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to his question on this subject yesterday. The prosecution in this case and all proceedings connected therewith were under the direction of the competent military authority. It is not proposed to take any further action in reference to any of the other matters referred to in the hon. Member's question.
The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the last part of the question, as to what measures are taken to prevent a recurrence of this treatment?
If people in Ireland are asked by the police questions arising out of their conduct it would be just as well if they replied in a language which the policeman understands.
Where does the right hon. Gentleman find a precedent for tolerating a language by imprisoning its professors?
Answer.
Answer.
There is no precedent.
Officers (Temporary Promotions)
asked the Under-Secretary for War whether some months ago the War Office, in order to meet the exigencies of the service in the expeditions on the Western front and elsewhere, sanctioned the appointment of lieutenants to be temporary captains and of second-lieutenants to be lieutenants in each British Infantry battalion serving in the field, both Regular and Territorial; whether, with the approval of the Secretary of State for India, the Government of India some months ago extended this system, then in practice among the British units of the Expeditionary Forces serving under the War Office, to all the British regiments serving with the Indian Expeditionary Force D in the campaign in Mesopotamia, with effect from the beginning of the operatons of the Force D; and whether, after the promulgation of these orders to the British troops, Regular and Territorial, in Mesopotamia, any orders have been issued to exclude Territorial officers, undergoing the same hardships and dangers, from the benefit of the extension and to deprive Territorial lieutenants and second-lieutenants of the temporary promotions sanctioned to the rank next above them?
If I understand my hon. Friend correctly no such orders as he seems to have in mind have been issued. But I am not certain that I have understood aright what is in my hon. Friend's mind.
Army Medical Service
asked the Under-Secretary for War if he is aware that there are a number of practising physicians and surgeons above the age of forty-five who would be willing to volunteer for special and general service at home and thus enable the War Office to free active service men for work at the front; and if the War Office will officially invite all medical men, without limitation of age, to offer their services for the period of the War under a scheme which would ensure proper recognition and due consideration of the special quaifications of practitioners who volunteered?
Medical men between the ages of forty-five and fifty-five are being employed as commissioned officers for general service in the United Kingdom. Doctors over fifty-five may offer their services for local employment to the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Command in which they are living, or in which they desire to do duty with troops. I think the hon. Baronet and my medical advisers are really at one in this matter. In other words, the policy should be that the medical men of more advanced years render the country the better service by undertaking the care of the civil population and thus setting free those of military age who are physically fit for duty at home or abroad.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the medical profession are looking for a clear and definite lead from the War Office in this matter, which they have not had up till now?
I am surprised to hear my hon. Friend say that. We have endeavoured to carry out the policy he advocates to the best of our ability, and we are continuing to do so.
Army Officers and German Prisoners
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the Admiralty Regulations require that not merely the parents but the grandparents of all masters of Admiralty transports must be British; and whether he will consider the desirability of extending this rule to positions which bring Army officers into close contact with German prisoners?
I understand that the Admiralty Regulations are as stated in the first part of the question. As regards the second part, I may assure the hon. Gentleman that the question of nationality is one among many others which are considered in connection with the appointment of officers to posts which would bring them into contact with prisoners of war.
Donington Hall (Lieutenant a. B. Meyer)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether Lieutenant Meyer's father, who died soon after his son was born, was in fact alive and a visitor at Bath and at the George Hotel, Buxton, in the year 1915, and was speaking with a strong German accent; and whether this in any way modifies his previous views as to the desirability of appointing this gentleman with a German father alive to the adjutancy of Donington Hall?
I find I made a mistake in the supplementary answer I gave to the hon. Member on the 5th April. For this I express my regret. I learn that the father of Lieutenant Meyer was naturalised thirty-eight years ago, and I have no reason to modify the views I expressed as to the son's suitability for the post of adjutant, to which he was appointed.
That being so, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he, in dealing with the facts in the second question, acted upon the principle laid down in the first question, namely, that the parents and grandparents should be of British nationality?
Yes, Sir; it was one of many factors.
It was not a controlling factor?
No, Sir.
Military Service
Reserved Occupations
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been drawn to the case of J. T. Murphy, of 69, Primrose Avenue, Shiregreen, Sheffield, a member of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, who works in a reserved occupation and holds a badge and certificate which he has shown to the military authority; whether he is aware that in reply this workman has been informed in writing by Lieutenant Barnsley that the fact of holding a badge and certificate does not exempt from service, and that the workman must in addition obtain from the employer an employer's certificate; whether he will state what authority there is for Lieutenant Barns-ley's statement; and what action he proposes to take?
I am calling for a report about this case.
On the general point, is it the case that a badge and certificate of themselves exempt, or must the workman obtain an employer's certificate?
That question ought to be addressed to the Minister of Munitions.
Enlistment of Boys
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether many boys who attested under the group system did so on the distinct promise embodied in the invitation issued on all the posters that men of eighteen would not be called up until they were nineteen years of age, and also emphasied in posters issued by the Parliamentary Recruiting Committee, which stated that under no circumstances will men be called up until they are nineteen years of age; and whether it is the intention of the Government in the face of these promises to call up boys before they are nineteen years of age?
Men in Group I. and Class I. are now called up, but only those who have actually reached the age of nineteen will be taken for service. All under that age will be medically examined and have the option of returning to their homes for the present or of remaining with the Colours and undergoing special training. They will not be sent abroad for active service before reaching the age of nineteen.
Why should they be given the option of returning home; why should they not be trained at once so that they could be used at once?
Because it was announced previously in Parliament that they would not be taken before they reached the age of nineteen. Now we are going to give them the option, and I would ask the House to support us.
How does the right hon. Gentleman justify sending boys of sixteen and seventeen to the front, which he is doing at present?
The hon. Baronet is really mistaken when he says we are doing it at present. I can assure him that there is no intention of doing it, and never has been any. My hon. Friend ought to remember that these boys, and about whom he has been complaining for a year or more, were, on their own showing, liars.
They were patriotic!
Then I will say they were patriotic and mendacious. They concealed their age. That is the first thing. The second thing is that very many of them are quite well-grown and well-developed boys, and have reached what is known as the physical development of eighteen and a half, in which case they are kept on.
Does the same rule apply to members of Officers' Training Corps of the same age to whom the right hon. Gentleman referred on Monday night last?
Do you mean with regard to the age of eighteen and a-half?
Yes.
I must ask for notice of that question.
Arising out of the answer—
I think we have had enough supplementary questions. We cannot have a debate upon the subject.
Conscientious Objectors
asked the Prime Minister whether he has recently received a letter from the Joint Committee of the Friends Service Committee and No-Conscription Fellowship, to the effect that the men for whom they speak will, in lieu of military service, only consent to undertake work towards the attainment of peace and towards the removal of international and racial hatred, and that, if any other service be imposed on them, they are determined to await the penalties attaching to deserters; and whether, in view of the Government statement that the service of every man available is needed in the Navy and Military Forces, it is intended to further countenance the activities of this committee and fellowship?
I am not aware that the Government has given any countenance to the bodies referred to. The matter is being carefully watched.
asked the President of the Local Government Board if he will communicate with the Appeal Tribunal which met at Hertford on 25th March last, with the object of obtaining for Mr. A. Ray Palmer, a chemist specially engaged in agricultural work and a conscientious objector, who appealed there on that date for total exemption and who was deprived on that occasion of his certificate of exemption from combatant service, a rehearing of his appeal or, alternatively, leave to appeal before the Central Tribunal, having regard to the fact that, as a result on a youth of nervous temperament, such as he is, of prolonged waiting from 10.30 a.m. until 5.30 p.m., he was mentally unfitted to stand the strain of cross-examination to which he was afterwards subjected?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for War to a question put to him by the hon. Member for North Somerset on Monday, last.
asked the President of the Local Government Board what steps should be taken by men who have been refused exemption by the military tribunals but who will not submit to any form of military service, but are willing to undertake civil work of national importance; to whom should such men apply for such employment, seeing that the Board of Trade Committee inform them that they cannot deal with individual cases; and will he make as full a statement as possible, in view of the urgency and seriousness of this matter?
These men are, I presume, under the Military Service Act and deemed to be enlisted. They are, therefore, amenable to military law as members of the Army Reserve.
Is the right hon. Gentleman answering the question on the Paper—his reply is not relevant to that question?
That is a matter of opinion; I think it is.
asked the President of the Local Government Board if he has received a request from the International Bible Students' Association asking that a similar arrangement may be made with them on behalf of their members, many of whom are conscientious objectors under the Military Service Act, 1916, as has been made with the Christadelphians, and what action he has taken upon the request; and, if he has not already agreed to make such an arrangement, will he do so at once, as a number of these men are under a call to the Colours to which they will not respond but are willing to engage in work of national importance of a non-military nature?
I cannot identify the request to which the hon. Member refers, and I have no authority to make any arrangement such as is suggested.
Has not the right hon. Gentleman made an arrangement with the Christadelphians; did he not say so a week ago?
No, certainly not; no arrangement was come to. What I did say was that the Christadelphians had forwarded to me a statement of their views which seemed to offer an admirable suggestion with regard to themselves. I did not say that any arrangement had been arrived at.
If the right hon. Gentleman thinks the suggestion admirable, could not he encourage its adoption in other quarters?
I do not think it is necessary for the Government to encourage suggestions of this kind. There are certain people unwilling to do their share in defending the country, and I think it is for them to find suitable fields for their energies.
Is it not that the Government are unwilling to carry out their own Act of Parliament?
No, it is not.
Discharged Volunteers
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether an unattested man who had served in and received his discharge from the old Volunteer Force is entitled to total exemption from military service of any kind under the Military Service Act, in view of the provisions in Section 1 (1) and in Clause 5 of the First Schedule to that Act?
The War Office have been advised that an ex-member of the old Volunteer Forces is not excepted from the provisions of the Military Service Act, but my hon. Friend will, of course, be aware that the interpretation of this Statute is for the Civil Courts and not for the Army Council.
Medical Examinations
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if his attention has been called to the fact that attested married men have to attend their county town to be medically examined at their own expense, while Derby recruits are examined locally; and if he can make arrangements for all to be examined locally?
If the hon. Gentleman is speaking, as I apprehend he is, about single and married men attested under the Derby scheme, it is not the case that the arrangements for the medical examination are more favourable in the one case than in the other. The same conditions apply in both cases.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is aware that the Army Medical Board at Halifax is passing men into the Army who are ruptured; and if he will make inquiries concerning the effect of active service in the Army on ruptured men?
The answer to the first half of the question is in the affirmative. Carefully selected men suffering from slight hernia, if properly fitted with a truss, may be passed for general service. It is not anticipated that active service will incapacitate or harm these men.
Attested Men (Release)
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that a circular headed "England expects every Man to do his Duty," was issued in the Mansfield district last December to married and single men, signed by Captain Muschamp, recruiting officer under Lord Derby's scheme, stating that there is no chance of appeal if a man does not attest; that all the members of the Mansfield Tribunal, including the mayor, four ex-mayors, and two labour representatives, read this circular to mean that compulsion would be applied to married men unless they attested; that for this reason all the members of the said tribunal urged all married men to attest, including men who in their opinion ought not to be called for military service; and will he, in view of these facts, at once introduce legislation to release all men of their liability under the Derby scheme who were led to attest on the faith of a false statement made in an official document?
I must refer my hon. Friend to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board on Thursday last to the hon. Member for South Paddington. I have nothing to add to that answer.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the President of the Local Government Board in answering a question last Thursday had not the circular before him, and in view of the fact that some of my Constituents have been led to attest under a trick, will he relieve them from their obligations and from compulsory service?
What my right hon. Friend said was that it appeared to have been rendered necessary that there should be some reconsideration of this case.
Medal Ribbons
asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the desirability of issuing forthwith medal ribbons for the campaigns of 1914–15, so that the men who have fought in these campaigns may be distinguished from those who have only recently joined the Army?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for West Cumberland on the 25th November, 1915, to which I can add nothing at present.
Pool Farm, Brownhills (Holt Bros.)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether he will say what answer has been returned to the letter received from a solicitor of Cannock, Staffordshire, who wrote to the Board about the case of the brothers Holt, of Pool Farm, Brown-hills, who farm seventy acres of land and have a large milk business, and who have been given a short temporary exemption from the Military Service Act, 1916; and, seeing that this land will go out of cultivation if these two brothers are taken into the Army, will he take steps to ensure that these men will not be called up so long as they remain in their present useful occupations?
I shall be glad to send my hon. Friend a copy of the Board's letter of the 8th instant on this matter. In reply to the second part of the question, the Board of Agriculture have no power to control, review, or alter the decisions of any local or appeal tribunal.
In a case like this, where the land passes out of cultivation if these men are taken, cannot the Board of Agriculture in the national interest make representations to the Local Government Board, or some other Government Department which has jurisdiction in this matter?
No, Sir. What we do is this: One of these men has been given three months' exemption. He can apply for a renewal of the exemption, and if we are satisfied that the land will go out of cultivation unless he gets a renewal we can instruct our representative on the tribunal—we have a representative on the tribunal—when the matter again comes before them.
Prejudicing Recruiting
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to the case of Arthur John Ramsden, who appealed successfully against a sentence of six weeks' hard labour imposed upon him at Marlborough Police Court for using language likely to prejudice recruiting; whether the prosecution was instituted by the Metropolitan Police; and, if so, whether he will communicate with the Commissioner of Police with a view to securing that such charges shall not be brought on wholly inadequate grounds?
Arthur John Ramsden, in the course of a speech at Hyde Park, made certain remarks which were resented by the crowd, and the police officer on duty, fearing a breach of the peace, arrested him. The facts were reported to the military authority, who intimated that the defendant should be brought before a magistrate. This course was adopted, and the defendant was convicted. The words used were not disputed, and in the first instance the defendant pleaded guilty to the charge of making statements likely to prejudice recruiting. I see no reason for the suggestion that the charge was brought upon wholly inadequate grounds.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Judge Wallace, who was formerly a Member of this House, said that the offending speech was not half so bad as many speeches delivered in Parliament?
Hear, hear!
I am sorry to say that is not a reason against the prosecution.
Attested Married Men
asked the President of the Local Government Board when he proposes to elaborate the scheme for giving special relief to attested married men; whether such scheme will provide for the State assuming liability for business engagements and leases; and whether, seeing that a number of groups have already been called to the Colours, an early opportunity will be given to the House of Commons to discuss such scheme in detail?
Considerable progress has been made with the scheme, but it has not yet reached a stage at which it can be laid before the House.
West Sussex Appeal Tribunal
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he will say why no representative of labour has been appointed upon the West Sussex Appeal Tribunal; why in the appointment of this tribunal the Local Government Board has not carried out the regulations under the Order in Council; and why protests against the exclusion of labour which have been sent to the Local Government Board have been ignored?
The hon. Member is, I think, under some misapprehension. Appeal Tribunals are appointed under the Military Service Act, and their constitution is not governed by the regulations to which he refers. When the Appeal Tribunal for West Sussex was being constituted the name of a person was submitted to me as a representative of labour, and he was duly appointed. The only protest on the subject which I have received has come from the Worthing Branch of the Independent Labour Party, and I do not think it necessary on the information before me to recommend further appointments to the tribunal at the present time.
Exemption of Farmers (Stockton-On-Tees)
asked the President of the Local Government Board what he can do in the case of three brothers named Umpleby, who live at Primrose Hill Farm, Londonderry Road, Stockton-on-Tees, who have been refused exemption from the Military Service Act, 1916, and who farms 125 acres of land, including three acres of market garden, and who have sixty-one head of cattle, seven horses, fifty-six sheep, and forty-eight pigs, and who have also a retail milk business of fifty gallons a day; seeing that if these men are called up the whole of this business must be stopped, will he say if this is a case which comes within his statement that conscientious objectors who are willing to do work of national importance shall be permitted to do such work; and will he say what work of national importance outside military organisation these men could be more usefully doing than their present occupation?
If the application was made solely on conscientious grounds, I presume it was refused on that ground.
Oswestry Camp (Sickness)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War what are the arrangements for dealing with cases of sickness at the Oswestry Camp in regard to medical staff and hospital accommodation, respectively; and whether great dissatisfaction exists as to the provision for dealing with the abnormal number of cases at this camp?
When I answered my hon. Friend on the 6th April, I was under the impression that he was referring to Prees Neath Camp, and the figures I gave had reference to that camp and not to the adjoining Oswestry Camp. The number of admissions to hospital at this camp from the 1st October to 31st March was 1,754, and of those admitted thirteen died, three of them as a result of accidents. The number of recruits training in this camp was 8,500, and the total strength is 11,000. The medical arrangements in this camp are, in the opinion of the Deputy-Director of Medical Services and also of that of the Senior Medical Officer of the camp, adequate. A medical officer is attached to each battalion. The hospital is a temporary one with 100 beds. There are, in all, eleven medical officers attached to the camp, eight regimental officers, and three officers doing duty at the hospital. In addition, there are four medical officers belonging to the Welsh Field Ambulances which are stationed at this camp for training. Their services are always available if required.
Parcels for Scottish Soldiers
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the scheme inaugurated by the Corporation of Glasgow for the collection at its own depots of parcels for soldiers on active service and the transmission of them in bulk to the military forwarding officer at Southampton; whether this scheme involves a great economy in cost to the senders of those parcels and in labour and bulk to the railway company; and whether, in view of the disadvantage under which the relatives of Scottish soldiers labour in respect of distance from the military forwarding station and cost of carriage, he can either open a depot for the military forwarding officer in Scotland or arrange for the carriage of parcels in bulk at the rate applicable to military stores?
My hon. Friend will doubtless agree that there is no reason why Scotland should receive in this matter treatment not accorded to other parts of the country. Perhaps I may put it the other way round for my hon. Friend, and say that there is no reason why other parts of the country should receive treatment which is not given to Scotland. That is a chase off. Obviously Scotland is more distant from Southampton than England, but Carlisle is more distant from Southampton than Birmingham. The possibility of a flat rate for these parcels was referred to the Railway Executive Committee, but it has been found quite impracticable to adopt it.
I would remind my hon. Friend that an organisation has been specially created by the War Office, of which Sir Edward Ward is the head, to insure the most efficient utilisation of the existing facilities for the dispatch of gifts in general demand by the troops. The local associations of Glasgow would obtain free transport for such gifts by coming into what is called the "Pool." This system combines efficiency with due regard to local interests, and would, I think, meet the requirements of the Corporation of Glasgow, so far as this can reasonably be done.
Does the existing organisation enable parcels to be sent to individual soldiers?
I understood that they were sent to the unit in bulk and distributed by the commanding officer, but I may be wrong about that. Perhaps my hon. Friend will repeat that part of the question.
Army Medical Service
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will appoint an independent Committee to examine into and report upon the organisation and working of the Army Medical Service at Home and abroad?
I cannot undertake action which, in my view, could only have the effect of dislocating and perhaps disorganising a most efficient piece of mechanism.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a considerable number of the officers of the Royal Army Medical Corps practising at the Front endorse the suggestions I ventured to make some weeks ago in the House?
As my hon. Friend has not thought it right to send me the letters, naturally I could not have the information which he has acquired.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if some of the most eminent specialists in the various branches of surgery have been for a long time during the War employed in field ambulances or otherwise where their special qualifications are wasted; and whether it is proposed to take any steps to ensure that doctors with special experience in different branches of medicine and surgery who have joined the Royal Army Medical Corps shall be utilised to the best advantage?
Our supply of efficient operating surgeons in our military hospitals at home and abroad is fully adequate. It is necessary that a certain number of younger surgeons should do duty with field ambulances, and they are employed with those units. Every effort is made to utilise the services of medical men joining the Royal Army Medical Corps for such duties as their special acquirements and their professional limitations best fit them, but it is impossible to allow each individual to select the work which he considers himself most competent to undertake.
Has the right hon. Gentleman observed that my question says that some of the most eminent specialists in the various branches of surgery were so employed, not the younger officers, as he says in his reply; and is he prepared to deny that eminent specialists in surgery have been employed in very inferior work?
I am quite prepared to believe that eminent specialists have occasionally, when they are employed abroad, to do somewhat trivial and menial duties. That must be part of every campaign.
Not at all!
I do not agree at all with my hon. Friend. I think it is absolutely inevitable in the ordinary routine of carrying on a great campaign that it may fall to the lot of the most eminent to do the most trivial duties. We retain the services of these eminent specialists, and if we have to employ them in that way occasionally, I am very sorry, but it is part and parcel of the difficulty of carrying on a great campaign.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War, with a view to economising the supply of medical men available for the Army, whether he will take steps to provide that general practitioners be, so far as possible, employed in part-time work in hospitals, or in looking after the health of troops quartered in the neighbourhoods where such practitioners live, so as to release for duty abroad men who have volunteered for whole-time service, thus obviating the necessity for asking an unncessary number of men to take commissions in the Royal Army Medical Corps, whereby the supply of doctors for the civil population at home is in danger of being unduly depleted?
General practitioners are already being largely employed in local military work. Every effort is being made to protect the needs of the civil population for adequate medical attendance, and in this connection the War Office is receiving the advice and assistance of representatives of the civil medical profession and of the various Government Departments concerned.
Retrenchment Committee (Hours of Civil Servants)
asked the Prime Minister whether the Treasury Circular embodying the recommendations of the Retrenchment Committee as affecting the normal hours of attendane in the Civil Service is to be put into operation without in any way allowing those affected the opportunity of making representations thereon; and whether he can see his way clear to afford an opportunity to those immediately concerned to state their case against it, with a view either to its withdrawal or amendment?
Since the issue of the Circular I have received representations which lead me to conclude that it is inexpedient to proceed with the proposed alteration, and that claims for compensation for reduction in earnings would go far to prevent substantial economy. The proposal has, therefore, been withdrawn.
Passage Money (Colonials Joining Army)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War what is the rule adopted by the War Office with regard to the payment or refund of passage money to those who return from Australia, Canada, South America or elsewhere, at their own expense for the purpose of joining the ranks of the Army as privates or officers; and why it is that the passage money of some is repaid to them while it is refused to others?
The general rules are that passages are allowed for Reservists who are residing abroad by permission, for officers similarly situated, and for others granted commissions after being sent to this country under orders of competent authority for that purpose. As regards other cases, which are treated according to circumstances, the considerations involved do not admit of being fully stated in reply to a question.
Salonika Expedition
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will ascertain whether it is possible to arrange to relieve those soldiers at Salonika who went out with the original Expeditionary Force to France, who have not visited their homes since the War began?
I have made inquiries and find that what my hon. Friend suggests is not practicable. I may remind him that such a system of reliefs as he indicates is not recognised in times of peace when a man is on service overseas.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War, in view of the fact that malaria is prevalent in the neighbourhood of Salonika during the summer months, whether the medical authorities are taking steps to safeguard the health of our troops by exterminating the mosquitoes which breed in the adjacent marshes?
The authorities at Salonika are fully alive to the importance of the matter which the Noble Lord presses on my attention, and they are taking all the necessary steps.
Commissions (Royal Fusiliers)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he can state the number of non-commissioned officers and privates who have been recommended for commissions by the lieutenant-colonel commanding the 10th Battalion Royal Fusiliers; whether there are a number of men serving in this battalion who consider themselves entitled to commissions but whose claims have been rejected by this officer; and whether he will cause independent inquiry to be made into the matter?
These figures do not exist in the War Office. No doubt there are some men whose views as to their fitness for commissions do not coincide with those of their commanding officers. Such an independent inquiry as is suggested is much to be deprecated.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this commanding officer, so it is reported, persistently refuses to recommend for commissions privates who have served from the commencement of the War, and in these circumstances does he not think it is only fair to those privates that some inquiry should be made as to whether his refusal is proper?
I dare say the hon. Gentleman's question may be brought to the notice of the commanding officer.
Prisoners of War (Philip-Popolis)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if his attention has been called to the condition of prisoners of war at Philippopolis; and if he has any official information as to the necessities of these prisoners and the result of the efforts of the American Chargø d'Affaires to ameliorate their condition?
Telegraphic information has recently been received that the prisoners of war in hospital are well treated, but no recent report has reached us of the condition of the bulk of the prisoners at Philippopolis. I understand that parcels are reaching them. The American Chargø d'Affaires is doing everything to supply the men with such things as are most needed and His Majesty's Government are most grateful for his efforts.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War how many men of the Royal Irish Fusiliers are prisoners of war at Philippopolis?
I am informed that four men of the Royal Irish Fusiliers are prisoners of war in Bulgaria. I cannot say for certain whether they are at Philippopolis.
Bravery in Field (New Decoration)
asked the Prime Minister whether he will explain the reason of the delay in the institution of a new decoration for meeting the exceptionally large numbers of claims to recognition on account of bravery in the field?
There has been no delay other than has necessarily been involved in the processes of design and manufacture of both the medal and riband. The formal institution of the medal has been effected by the Warrant which appeared in the "London Gazette" of Friday, 7th April.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Prime Minister gave an undertaking two months ago that this should be done and it is still not out?
I was not aware that it was two months, but I can well imagine that the design might take a very long time.
They do not want the medal now.
Munitions
Clyde Industrial Dispute
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the shop stewards deported without trial from Glasgow have been offered a free journey, together with their families, to San Francisco; and whether he can state by which Department and for what purpose this offer was made?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. The Minister of Munitions has no information on the matter referred to. No such offer was made by him or on his behalf, or, I am informed, by or on behalf of the military authorities.
Questions
Accommodation for Recruits (Wrexham)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War what are the results of his inquiries as to the accommodation and treatment of recruits called up to Wrexham?
I have had inquiries made, and I learn that recruits are provided with breakfast at 7.15 or 8 a.m., dinner 12.45 or 1.15 p.m., and tea from 4.30 to 5 p.m. The coffee bar is open all day till 9 p.m., except from 2 to 3 p.m., and any recruit who wants more food can get it on payment. It is in a sense true that the men sleep on straw, inasmuch as every man is provided with a regulation palliasse stuffed with straw, which is periodically renewed. The Officer Commanding 23rd Recruiting Area confidently states that the food and accommodation is as good, if not better, at Wrexham than they will obtain during their service in the Army, and that it would be good enough for himself. This is confirmed by two letters received, one from the Deputy-Mayor of Wrexham and the other from the Chairman of the Denbighshire Parliamentary Recruiting Committee.
Richard Ivor Parry
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is now in a position to give the result of his inquiry into the case of Richard Ivor Parry?
My hon. Friend should have received a written answer which I sent him on the 10th April.
Will my right hon. Friend make inquiries whether this man has not been at home for thirteen months suffering from heart disease, whether his medical attendant has not informed the medical authorities, and whether the medical authorities notwithstanding that have passed him for general service?
The hon. Member ought to give notice of a series of questions of that sort.
Nerve-Shaken Soldiers
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether payment is being made to the visiting committee of the Middlesex County Asylum at Wandsworth in respect of the care and treatment of uncertifiable nerve-shaken soldiers; and, if so, whether this is in accordance with a statement made on behalf of the War Office, in answer to a question on 11th March, 1915, that soldiers invalided through nerve-strain would not be placed under asylum administration?
Yes, Sir, payments are being made to the visiting committee of this asylum as agents of the War Office. The whole responsibility for the care and treatment of the soldiers in question remains with the War Office.
Can my hon. Friend assure me that the pledge referred to is being carried out in the spirit and in the letter, namely, that men who are nerve shaken are in no way under the Lunacy Commissioners?
I can give that assurance. The visiting committee makes payments for supplies as agents of the War Office, but the care and treatment of the men is reserved for the War Office exclusively.
Recruiting Leaflets (Ireland)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office (1) if he will give the names of those now or recently employed writing leaflets and other matter for recruiting purposes in Ireland; the rates at which that work has been and is being paid for; the nature of the previous experience of those persons that was regarded as a qualification for that work; and (2) what salary and expenses are being paid to Recruiting Lieutenant George E. Draper, now operating in the county of Sligo; and from what date?
I am making inquiries and will communicate with the hon. Member in due course.
Employes in Army Departments
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office how many persons in all are employed by the following: the Army Finance Department, the Army Pay Department, and the Army Pay Corps, including the members of these three bodies working in the War Office; and will he state what percentage are women?
The total number of persons employed in these departments, including those in the War Office, is 17,531. About 45 per cent. are women.
Can the hon. Gentleman assure the House that these enormous numbers are absolutely necessary?
Yes. I wish I could reduce them.
Northern Home Defence Army (Headquarters)
asked what rent, if any, is being paid for the headquarters of the Northern Home Defence Armies?
This accommodation was acquired under the Defence of the Realm Regulations. The payment to be made is at present being considered by the Royal Commission appointed to deal with cases such as this.
Naval and Military Service (Pensions and Grants)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether, in view of the length of the War and the slender separation allowances awarded to many mothers whose sons joined just as their apprenticeship was finishing, on account of their inability to establish greater pre-war dependence, and on account of the increase in the cost of living, he can see his way to allow a revision of such allowances, based on what the son would now have been contributing to the home?
The Select Committee fully considered this question, and I can hold out no hope that their decision in the matter will be varied.
Can the hon. Gentleman say when they last considered it, and whether in view of the great difference now in the cost of living they could reconsider it?
I am afraid I cannot give the date. It was some time ago. I would remind my hon. Friend that as part of the recommendations of the Select Committee a Statutory Committee has been set up to deal with cases of this kind.
Indian Army (Officers' Pay)
asked the Secretary of State for India whether officers attached to Indian regiments who are in command of companies or battalions are given the temporary rank and pay of captains or lieutenant-colonels; and, if so, how long they have to be in command before such temporary rank is given to them?
The command of companies in Indian Infantry regiments is exercised by native Indian officers. In accordance with the terms of the communiquø dated 25th February, 1916, of which I will send my hon. Friend a copy, a British officer below the rank of captain who acts as Double Company Commander in an Infantry regiment, or Squadron Commander in a Cavalry regiment, is granted the temporary rank and pay of captain, after he has held the post for a complete period of thirty days. Similarly, a captain or major in temporary command of an Indian regiment is given one step of temporary rank, with the emoluments attaching thereto, after he has held the appointment for thirty days. A major appointed to the substantive command of an Indian regiment is promoted at once to lieutenant-colonel.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether notice of this temporary rank was given in the "Gazette" as in the case of the English Army?
I must ask my hon. Friend for notice of that. I am not familiar with these matters, and I must make inquiry before I answer.
German Traders (India)
asked whether, under the Foreigners Ordinance, 1914, and the Hostile Foreigners Trading Order, under which hostile firms have been closed down, such firms will be able to resume business operations six months after peace is declared; and, if so, whether further legislation is contemplated prescribing that all German business in India shall be transacted by British subjects and all imports and exports carried in British steamers?
The provisions of the Ordinances under which the Hostile Foreigners (Trading) Order was issued will remain in force for six months after the end of the War. Meanwhile, the policy to be followed after that date is being considered, but regarding this I would at present prefer to say nothing.
Mahomedan Tenets (German Restrictions in East Africa)
asked the Secretary for India whether he will take steps to circulate in those parts of His Majesty's Dominions where there is a large Mahomedan population the substance of the orders issued by the German Government to their resident officers in East Africa forbidding the practice of some of the essential tenets of Mahomedanism with a view to the restriction of the observance of their religion by the natives?
The contents of the documents referred to were at once telegraphed to India. As soon as I saw them, I telegraphed suggesting their widespread publication amongst those interested in them.
War Loan (Scottish Children's Investments)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the conditions and regulations attached to the 4½ per Cent. War Loan are such that stock placed by the father of a pupil child aged eight in Scotland in the name of the latter can be neither sold, transferred, nor in any way dealt with for the ensuing thirteen years, and that the dividends cannot be cashed but must be accumulated with the Bank of England for thirteen years; whether he has seen a recent letter written by the Bank of England insisting upon this being the position; whether, with a view to encouraging the investment of Scottish children's money in national stocks, he can give an assurance that the rights of administration competent to fathers as guardians of their pupil children in Scotland will not be interfered with by any mere regulations of the Bank of England; and whether investors in Scotland are to regard this claim of the Bank of England as irregular and definitely abandoned for the future?
I have received a copy of the correspondence referred to from my hon. Friend. Stock inscribed in the sole name of a minor cannot be dealt in during minority except in the manner provided in the National Debt (Stockholders' Relief) Act, 1892. The bank's practice as registrars of stock is regulated by the National Debt Acts.
I beg to give notice that I will raise this matter on the Adjournment to-night.
Motor Licences
asked whether it is proposed to make any concession to medical men in respect of the increased licences on motors and motor cycles?
The existing concession under which registered medical practitioners pay only half-rates will extend to the new duties.
Will that affect veterinary surgeons?
No, Sir. There is a subsequent question on that point.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider the desirability of allowing to the veterinary profession the same abatement on motor licences as is allowed to the medical profession; whether he is aware that if this is not done many of them will be compelled to give up their cars, thus injuriously affecting the livestock trade, particularly in Ireland; and whether he is aware that the practices of many veterinary surgeons now serving in the Army may be ruined by the inability of those looking after their work at home to cover the necessary ground if they are compelled to give up their motor cars?
I would remind the hon. Member that veterinary surgeons were granted by the Finance (No. 3) Act, 1915, an allowance in respect of motor spirit used for purposes of their profession, and I am not satisfied that there is a case for further concession. I have no reason to think that the apprehensions expressed in the latter part of the question will be realised.
Sugar Supplies
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware of the effect upon the trade caused by the management of the sugar supplies by the Sugar Commission; and if he will take prompt steps to reconstruct that Committee and to include a majority of men on the same who possess a practical knowledge of the sugar trade by reason of their life-long association with the business?
I do not consider that the action suggested by the hon. Member is called for. The Sugar Commission has the advantage of the constant advice of persons with a practical knowledge of the trade.
Budget Proposals
Cider and Perry Duties
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can state what is the minimum quantity of cider which farmers may sell wholesale without becoming liable to the proposed tax of 4d. per gallon?
There is no such minimum. Liability to the duty is not affected by the question whether the cider is sold in wholesale or retail quantities.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that the average importation of cider and perry into this country in ordinary times averages about 30,000 gallons per annum; and will he state whether imported cider and perry will be liable to any Customs Duty?
Imported cider and perry will, equally with that made in this country, be subject to the tax under Clauses 6 and 7 of the Finance (New Duties) Bill.
May I ask if the right hon. Gentleman has not lost sight of the fact that the consumer in this country importing cider from abroad for his own consumption and not for sale will not be taxed? He will avoid the tax, and the foreign producer of cider will obtain a preference of 4d. a gallon over the home producer.
I am not at all sure that my hon. Friend is right in his statement of the law. I will inquire further into the subject.
Will the right hon. Gentleman look into the Clause of the Bill?
Yes, it will be a very proper subject for debate when we reach the Clause this afternoon.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether farmers who make cider and sell it whole sale will be liable to pay the proposed duty of 4d. per gallon; if so, if the duty will be payable on the whole quantity made, including the amount reserved for their own consumption and that of their employøs, or only on such portion as may be sold; and if cider which has once paid duty in the cask will again be liable to duty either when resold in cask or bottled or by the glass or other measure?
Liability to the duty is not affected by the question whether the cider is sold in wholesale or retail quantities. The special case of cider sold by farmers to wholesale dealers will be dealt with in Regulations to be made by the Board of Customs and Excise. The duty will only be chargeable on the cider sold. Cider which has once paid duty in cask will not have to pay duty again when resold.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that in the cider-drinking counties cider is not to any great extent sold in public-houses or beer-houses by the bottle, but is sold on draught from the cask in mugs or glasses; and if he will state how the proposed tax on cider will be collected in such cases?
The tax will be paid in such cases by a stamp label on the cask.
Table Waters Duty
( by Private Notice ) asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with reference to the proposed tax on mineral waters, whether he is aware that the manufacturers are strongly of opinion that the affixing of a stamp on every bottle is quite impracticable, as the placing of such bottles on ice would lead to the displacement of the stamp, and thus subject manufacturers and traders to the possibility of unjustifiable prosecutions; whether he can state how stamps can satisfactorily be attached to syphons in such a way as to prevent the same stamps being again used fraudulently; and whether he will consider the advisability of simplifying the arrangement and averting endless confusion to the trade by requiring every manufacturer to take out a licence and to pay the tax according to his total output, as certified by an approved firm of chartered accountants?
I am aware that at a deputation of manufacturers which was recently received by the Board of Customs and Excise strong objection was expressed to the use of stamps. There will, of course, be difficulties, especially in the early days of the tax, but I do not think that in practice they will prove as great as is anticipated by the trade, and I am sure that the Board of Customs and Excise will do all that they can to facilitate the starting of the tax and that they may be trusted not to abuse their legal powers. I am afraid that the alternative system of levying the tax proposed in the question would not be satisfactory.
Perhaps I may add that as my hon. Friend knows a very large firm of soda water manufacturers have always, until quite recently. put a label over the top of the cork, and a great deal of ginger beer is sold with a label over the cork, and what has been done in the case of the label may reasonably be done in the case of a stamp.
Is it not a fact that most of the bottles now used by high-class firms do not include corks at all, but have glass stoppers, and will he tell me how any amount of consideration on the part of the Customs officials can prevent stamps coming off when the bottles are placed in ice, and how he proposes to attach the stamps to the syphons?
I do not think there are any practical difficulties in the way of attaching a stamp to a syphon. If my hon. Friend will call at the Board of Customs and Excise they will be very happy to show him syphons with stamps attached.
Old Age Pensions
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the increased cost of living, he will give a small war bonus to those old age pensioners who are entirely dependent on the State pension?
I fear I can add nothing to the reply that I gave on this subject on the 21st March to the hon. Member for the Bridgeton Division of Glasgow. I am sending a copy to my Noble Friend.
Will the right hon. Gentleman send me a copy?
Prohibition of Imports
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the Order prohibiting the import of cotton goods, except such as have been actually paid for or in transit, will entail inconvenience and loss to traders who have sold and merchants who have bought goods for forward delivery; and if the Order can be so administered as to admit goods which were contracted for before the date of the Order?
The course proposed in the last part of the question would seriously diminish the effect of the prohibitions of import, and I am not prepared to adopt it.
asked the President of the Board of Trade, in view of the fact that the present list of prohibited imports allows importations of many unnecessary goods for war purposes, what steps he is taking to exclude such unnecessary goods?
I am at present considering what additions can usefully be made to the list of prohibited imports and hope to be able to make an early announcement on the subject.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give the answer before the Easter Recess?
Yes, Sir, if possible. I will try to give the answer before the House rises.
When it is decided to prohibit altogether the import of articles which have previously been allowed, will an announcement be made to the trade generally?
I think it would be more convenient, if the House was sitting, to make the answer first af all in this House.
United Kingdom Patents (Exactions from Scottish Owners)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can now make a statement as to the recent letter of the registrar of the Probate Court, indicating the view that illegal exactions have for many years been made in respect of United Kingdom patents owned by parties dying domiciled in Scotland; and whether such exactions are to be continued?
As I promised, in reply to a previous question by the hon. Gentleman, the point to which he refers has been submitted to the Law Officers for their opinion. Pending the receipt of that opinion I am not able to make any statement on the subject.
Foreign Imports
Brewing Materials
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to a resolution of the Wesleyan churches (numbering nineteen, Tunstall Circuit), passed at their quarterly meeting, criticising the preference shown in transport of commodities to a trade which is injurious to the interests of religion, morality, and social life, and which is a sheer waste, and calls upon the Members of Parliament to use all possible influence with the Board of Trade to see that articles of food-stuffs are given first consideration to deal justly with the useful trades and the British people in this matter; and can he say what steps he intends to take in dealing with these matters?
If the resolution referred to in the question relates to the brewing trade, I am not aware that preference has been shown to this trade in the matter of transport. On the contrary, as the hon. Gentleman will be aware, steps have been taken with the object of imposing drastic restrictions on the importation of brewing materials.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that, in view of the proposed Bill to restrict brewing, brewers are already refusing to supply beer to His Majesty's troops both in this country and abroad; and if he proposes to make any provision for ensuring supplies of beer to regimental institutes?
No refusals of this character have been brought to my notice. The Bill which is being drafted will enable brewers in districts where there are considerable numbers of troops to secure a share of the barrelage of brewers in other districts where the demand for beer has fallen off, but I am not prepared to compel any particular brewer to sell beer to any particular class of consumers.
asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether it is proposed to insert in the Bill limiting the import of brewing materials provisions to secure for the owners and licensees of free houses, in the event of the Bill becoming law, a supply of beer from the total permitted output by the brewers of the United Kingdom equal in quantity to the 72 per cent. of the supply furnished to such owners and licensees by the brewers of the United Kingdom during the year 1914; and (2) whether, having regard to the fact that a quantity of British brewed beer is now being supplied for the use of the troops at the front, he will take into consideration that this involves in the event of the Limitation of Brewing Materials Bill becoming law, that there may be a considerable diminution of supply to the owner of free houses in the United Kingdom, thus inflicting a grievous business hardship; and whether, having regard to the fact that it is desirable to keep in existence as many free houses as possible, he will insert provisions in the Bill to provide for this contingency?
In reply to these questions and the immediately succeeding one, I can only refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer given to a similar question put by the hon. Member for Hammersmith on Monday.
Motor Tyres
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, having regard to the fact that in 1915 upwards of £2,000,000 sterling were paid to foreigners for imported motor and motor cycle tyres, and to the fact that the English manufacturers are quite capable of manufacturing them, he will prohibit this importation during the remainder of the War?
The question of prohibiting the importation of motor tyres will receive consideration when the next Proclamation is being drafted. The sole object of the prohibitions has been to free tonnage space for the carriage of necessary goods.
Cotton Lace
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the net imports of foreign lace into the United Kingdom in 1915 were valued at £2,800,000, and that the imports of cotton laces in 1910, 1911, 1912, 1913, 1914 were, respectively, valued at £7,949, £13,000, £11,000, £21,000, £19,000, while in 1915 the figure rose to £206,000; and, if so, what action, if any, has been, or will be, taken in order to restrict the increasing importation of this article of luxury?
The hon. Gentleman has, I think, included in his total figures for imports of foreign lace the imports of embroidery. These imports consist to a large extent of embroidery on cotton cloth which is exported from the United Kingdom to Switzerland for the purpose, and I do not propose at present to interfere with this trade. The imports of cotton lace in the strict sense form a comparatively trifling part of the total, and the amount of tonnage space which would be saved by the prohibition would be small. Moreover, the greater part of the foreign lace which reaches us at present is of French origin, and in all the circumstances I am not prepared to prohibit its importation.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a great deal of this lace comes from Switzerland, which is presumably of enemy origin, and would he consider the propriety if not of helping British trade, at any rate of discouraging the importation of an obvious luxury?
Hardware
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether under the title "Hardware" the importation of engineers' and joiners' tools has been prohibited; and whether he has considered the effect of this prohibition upon many munitions trades, for which the home supply of these tools is inadequate?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative, and the second part therefore does not arise.
Fuel and Foodstuffs
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has taken or intends to take steps to regulate the freights to be charged by shippers for fuel and foodstuffs going to Ireland?
Everything that is possible will be done to assist in maintaining the necessary supply of tonnage for Ireland, but the rise in freights is due to the great and increasing scarcity of tonnage, and I cannot give a definite promise that it will be possible to reduce them.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the maximum freight from the Argentine to Ireland for Indian corn before the War was 10s. a ton and is now 140s., which is an increase of over 1,200 per cent.? What steps have been taken to reduce the freight on articles used generally by the farmers of Ireland for the feeding of cattle and pigs?
I can only refer my hon. Friend to the steps taken generally to set tonnage free for the carriage of food and feeding-stuff to this country.
Can the right hon. Gentleman even give a guarantee that the freights now paid will not be increased?
No, it is impossible to give that guarantee. If more ships are set free for other services it will be possible to look forward to a reduction, but not otherwise.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Government are sending ships with oats to Italy, which are denied to this country?
Have not the Government under their control over 3,000 ships, a large number of which ought to be used to supply food for the people?
Would it not meet with the difficulty to prohibit absolutely the importation of brewing materials?
Questions
Enemy Raids (Workmen's Compensation)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that, following the decision of the Law Lords on the 25th November last, when a railwayman injured in the Hartlepool bombardment in consequence of his anxiety to remain at his post was refused compensation, misgivings exist amongst railwaymen in all parts of the country as to what they ought to do under similar circumstances, either to protect themselves as ordinary citizens or to stick at their posts and, whilst protecting their employers' property, be denied their rights under the Workmen's Compensation Act; and whether, therefore, he will take action as president of the Railway Executive Committee and advise the men exactly how they stand in this matter?
I am afraid I cannot add much to the answer which I gave to my hon. Friend's question of the 23rd February on this subject. The Courts seem to have taken the view that the injury in the case referred to did not arise out of the man's employment, as he was not exposed to any greater risk from the bombardment than any other person in the neighbourhood in the open air at the time. Any misgivings which may be felt by railwaymen as to their duty in similar circumstances can hardly be based on this decision.
Belfast Steamship Services
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the wages' dispute which has led to the suspension of the cross-channel steamship services between Belfast and Heysham, Fleetwood, and Liverpool has now extended to the Larne and Stranraer service; and if, having regard to the loss and inconvenience which are entailed by the prolonged dislocation of passenger and goods traffic, he will state what action he proposes to take to bring about a settlement of the dispute and a resumption of the services?
asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether the Government are in favour of having the shipping dispute by which Belfast and other towns in Ireland are now so prejudicially affected settled by arbitration; whether he or his Department have taken any and what steps to bring about a settlement of this dispute by arbitration; and (2) whether, in view of the increased and rapidly increasing dislocation of shipping communication between Belfast and other Irish ports and England, caused by the refusal of the English railway companies owning the ships to consent to refer the disputes between them and the crews to arbitration, he is now prepared to take effectual steps to remove the present deadlock and secure a speedy settlement for the sake of all the important interests affected?
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has seen the announcement that the steamers between Larne and Stranraer have been withdrawn in consequence of the dispute in connection with the boats running from Belfast to Liverpool, Fleetwood, and Heysham; whether he is aware that Belfast is now practically cut off from steamboat communication with Great Britain, and that indignation prevails amongst traders in Belfast and district at the continuance of the present state of affairs; and whether the Board of Trade will take immediate action to bring about a settlement of the dispute?
I am still in communication with the railway companies, and hope shortly to be in a position to make a statement on the subject.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the enormous inconvenience which traders in the North of Ireland are suffering owing to the long stoppage of these sailings?
I am very much alive to the inconvenience not only to traders, but to ordinary passengers caused by the stoppage of these boats, and I hope that other vessels will be run in due course, but the only ones I can announce at present are the Heysham boats.
South-Eastern and Chatham Railway (Train Services)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received any reply from the South-Eastern and Chatham Railway Company as to the proposal to stop some main line and Crystal Palace workmen's trains at Walworth Road station during the crush hours of workmen's traffic of a morning and evening; if so, can he state if the railway company propose to do this; and can he give the proposal his support?
As I have now informed my hon. Friend, the managing committee of the railway do not see their way to adopt this proposal, inasmuch as to do so would necessitate the running of additional trains between the Crystal Palace and other parts of London during the busy hours and the retention of staff at Walworth Roard station which could more usefully be employed elsewhere. I am satisfied that the question has been carefully considered, and I am afraid I cannot carry it further.
Soldiers (Discharged as Unfit)
asked whether lists of soldiers discharged from the Army as unfit for further service are being kept for every county and county borough; and, if so, what authority is now compiling and in possession of these lists?
As I have explained in answer to previous questions, arrangements have been for some time in force between the War Office and the Board of Trade whereby forms giving particulars of soldiers discharged from the Army as unfit for further service are distributed to the Labour Exchanges of the localities to which the soldiers go on discharge, and are used with a view to finding employment for any soldiers needing assistance in that respect. The question of supplying similar information for other purposes to the local committees being established by the Statutory Committee, under the Naval and Military War Pensions Act, is now, I understand, under consideration by the Statutory Committee and the Board of Trade.
Telegraphic Communication (Ireland)
asked the Postmaster-General (1) if the interruption of telegraphic communications caused by the recent severe storms have been considered from the point of view of national defence; if it is intended to proceed with the work of laying all the trunk telegraph wires, including those to Ireland, underground; and (2) if he will state the average annual cost over the past ten years of repairing damage done by storms to overhead telegraph wires; and if the savings under this head which would result from placing all main trunk lines underground would meet the interest on the capital sum involved?
asked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been drawn to the continued interruptions in the telegraph service between London and Dublin; if he can state whether the two wires to Birmingham which survived the storm are laid underground; and if he will consider the advisability of extending the underground system to the main wires between London and Ireland?
The importance of securing uninterrupted telegraphic communication by means of underground lines has been kept in view by successive Postmasters-General and an underground telegraph system which cost about £2,000,000 is now in use. Taking the telegraph and telephone systems together, the total length of aerial wire in use is now less than 1,000,000 miles as compared with over 2,000,000 miles of underground wires. The cost of putting the remaining trunk telegraph lines underground would probably exceed £3,000,000, and the annual charge for interest and depreciation, taken at 6 per cent. only, would be £180,000 a year as compared with an average annual cost for storm repairs for the past ten years of £24,190, of which £6,700 has been in respect of the main trunk telegraph lines. It would, moreover, be impossible to carry out this work at present. Owing to the shortage of labour and other circumstances connected with the War, it has been necessary to suspend the schemes in progress for the construction of additional telegraph and telephone underground lines. I am glad to say that communication with Ireland was not wholly interrupted by the recent storm, although some of the land lines connecting the Irish cables were broken down.
Will the right hon. Gentlemen answer the last part of my question as to whether there are two wires to Birmingham laid underground?
Yes. There is underground connection to Birmingham.
Is not that an argument for laying underground wires to connect with Ireland, and will that be done on any particular date?
I cannot undertake to say what will be done after the War, but during the period of the War I do not think that we can undertake to do that work.
Postal Charges (France)
asked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been drawn to complaints of the postal charges on parcels to our troops in France and elsewhere; and whether he can see his way to reduce them, as they bear hardly on poor people?
I regret that it is not practicable, in view of the vast and growing bulk of the parcel mails for the Expeditionary Forces, the importance of preserving regularity and rapidity in delivery and of the difficulties of providing adequate transport both in this country and abroad, to make any reduction in the rates of postage on parcels for the troops abroad.
Children of Alien Parents. (Education)
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that, in order to save the rates, the London education authority has withdrawn certain educational advantages previously offered to the children of alien parents; whether this action has been taken after consultation with, or with the sanction of, the Board of Education; and whether, in view of the need of cementing honourable international ties, he will intervene by asking that this decision will be reconsidered?
I am not aware that the London County Council have withdrawn educational advantages from children of alien parents in order to save the rates; and the Board have not been consulted in the matter. I notice that the most recent resolution of the London County Council on the subject is confined to children of alien enemies, and I am not aware that the relations between this country and Allied nations have been prejudiced.
British-Born Persons (German Names)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been called to the fact that Herr Hindenburg, conductor of the orchestra at Torquay, has changed his name to Cameron since the War; and will he explain why this was allowed?
I am informed that Mr. George Cameron Basil Hindenburg, now Cameron, is a natural-born British subject. His father and mother are also said to have both been natural-born British subjects. I know of no reason why he should not have changed his name if he so desired.
The right hon. Gentleman has frequently said that Germans, whether naturalised or not, should not change their names during the War.
This gentleman is not naturalised. He is a natural-born British subject, and the son of a natural-born British subject. In the second place, the Order in Council which relates to the matter does not apply.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make further inquiries as to whether the parents were German or not?
asked the Home Secretary if his attention has been called to the advertisements appearing to the effect that persons with German names have changed their names to English ones by deed poll registered; and, seeing that this is in direct conflict with his statement that no changes of German names would be permitted during the War, will he say what steps he proposes to take?
No such statement has been made by me, or by my predecessors. The Order in Council which deals with the matter prohibits a change of name by alien enemies, and not by British subjects who, although, it may be, of long British descent, are so unfortunate as to have inherited names of German origin or character.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman refer to the fact that children of alien-born enemies are allowed to change their names, although not British born?
Yes, if they are not British born subjects.
Consols and National Stocks (Scotland)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he has now had time to consider the difficulties of judicial factors appointed by Courts of Law in Scotland in respect of their title to Consols and other national stocks; and whether, with a view to encouraging the investment of such factory funds in national stocks, the Government will now give to the Bank of England such authorisation, if any, as may be required to recognise as valid and sufficient a title to national stock emanating from the Supreme Court in Scotland, and to dispense with the requirement that titles so issued shall receive the imprimatur of the English Court whose proper jurisdiction does not extend to Scotland?
This subject is being considered by me, with the assistance of my right hon. Friend the Lord Advocate and the Bank of England, and I hope that it may be possible to deal with the difficulties described in my hon. Friend's question by a Clause in the Finance Bill.
Poor Law Amendment Act, 1867
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to a resolution of the Stoke-on-Trent board of guardians stating that in the opinion of the board it is desirable that legislation should be introduced to extend the power conferred by Section 22 of the Poor Law Amendment Act, 1867, for the detention of persons suffering from contagious or infectious disease, and that Courts of Summary Jurisdiction should be empowered, upon the application of boards of guardians, to order the removal to and detention in sanatoria or other institutions of persons suffering from pulmonary tuberculosis; and will he say what are the intentions of the Government respecting the proposals mentioned?
I have received a copy of the resolution. I cannot undertake to introduce legislation on a subject of this kind at the present time.
Naturalised Enemy Subjects
asked the Prime Minister whether he has any information that the New South Wales Assembly has agreed to the Third Reading of a Bill to disfranchise naturalised enemy subjects during the War and to prevent them from voting or sitting in Parliament and on municipal councils; and whether he will give an opportunity to this House to consider the desirability of taking a like course?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the second, I am not aware of any general desire for such a discussion.
Sale of Intoxicating Liquors
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to a resolution of the quarterly meeting of the Stoke-on-Trent mission centres protesting against the hypocrisy of appeals for economy while the Government allows the waste from intoxicating liquor to increase in one year by£17,000,000; and can he say in what way the Government propose in the future to prevent the evils complained of in the resolution?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. With regard to the second, I must point out to my hon. Friend that the Government have already taken drastic steps towards the restriction of the consumption of intoxicating liquors.
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to a resolution of the British Temperance League expressing the hope that war necessities may lead to a permanent settlement of the drink difficulty by common agreement, and urging that the need of safeguarding from evil, and the attainment of the highest degree of efficiency in the military and naval forces of the Crown, and the munition workers, and of conserving the moral and economic welfare of the nation, demand the prohibition of the manufacture and sale of intoxicating liquors, and inviting from every Member of the House of Commons the active support of this policy as a measure of war necessity; and whether he can say what steps the Government will take in dealing with the matter mentioned?
I do not think the resolution quoted affords a suitable occasion for an announcement of future general policy.
Belgium (Evacuation)
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the German Chancellor's recent speech in the Reichstag indicating that Germany is now prepared to evacuate Belgium, the primary object for which this country entered the War, and with the object of preventing the further slaughter of human lives, His Majesty's Government are now prepared to enter into peace negotiations for the purpose of bringing the War to a conclusion?
If my hon. Friend will do me the honour to read my speech at the dinner to the French Parliamentary delegates on Monday, he will see that I then attempted an answer to the German Imperial Chancellor.
Of course, I have read the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, but arising out of that may I ask if his speech meant that the right hon. Gentleman favours the creation of an international tribunal or concert of the European Powers, including Germany—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"]—which would prevent the domination of Prussian militarism, or that of any other Power?
The speech speaks for itself.
Economic Conference (Paris)
asked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to invite the Prime Minister of the Dominion of Canada to attend the Economic Conference at Paris; and, if it is not their intention to do so, will he explain to the House the reasons that have led them to that conclusion?
It has not been suggested that any of the Dominions should be specially represented at the Conference, and, as I have already explained, Mr. Hughes, who is an Imperial Privy Councillor, has been invited to attend as one of the representatives of the Imperial Government. If it had been possible for any of the Prime Ministers of the other Dominions to be present, I need not say that a similar invitation would have been extended to them.
Would it not be possible for Sir Robert Borden, who is an Imperial Privy Councillor, to be present?
I understand that Sir Robert Borden is not able to be here.
Chemical Society (Alien Enemies)
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the report of the Chemical Society for 1915–16, in which it is stated that the council decided to take no steps to remove the names of alien enemies from the list of honorary and foreign members and Fellows of the Society; whether he is aware that the Chemical Society is constituted by Royal Charter and occupies premises at Burlington House at the expense of the nation; and whether, in view of the fact that German chemists are responsible for the violations by Germany of the usages of civilised warfare and of international conventions, he will consider the desirability of taking steps to revoke the charter of the Chemical Society, which retains the names of German chemists on its list of members?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at the annual meeting of the Chemical Society the report was referred back to the council for reconsideration, and that it is now under consideration?
With regard to the first part of the question, I under- stand that the matter is still under the society's consideration. The answer to the second part of the question is in the affirmative and to the last in the negative.
Easter Recess
asked the Prime Minister whether he can state, approximately, the duration of the Easter Recess?
I regret that I cannot yet make a statement.
Duke of Cumberland and Duke of Albany
asked the Prime Minister (1) whether His Royal Highness the Duke of Cumberland still retains the rank, style, and dignity of a Prince of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and is a Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Hanoverian Guelphic Order; whether His Royal Highness the Duke of Albany still retains the rank, style, and dignity of a Prince of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and is a Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order; if so, why have not these persons, who have been removed in May, 1915, from the Order of the Knight-hood of the Garter as being traitors in open warfare against the Sovereign and the people of the British Empire, still left in the possession of the highest honours which it is within the power of the Sovereign to confer; whether, having regard to the irritation which the exceptional treatment of these traitorous persons is calculated to create, steps will be taken immediately to deprive them of honours whose retention is incompatible with treason; (2) whether, having regard to the fact that two Members of the House of Commons, Mr. Foster and Mr. Carnegy, were expelled from this House in 1715 as being in open rebellion against this country, there is any and, if so, what obstacle to the taking of a similar course by the expulsion of the Dukes of Cumberland and Albany from the House of Lords as traitors in arms against the Sovereign and the people of this Empire; whether the Government will take any step in the matter; and (3) whether His Majesty has been pleased to give directions for the introduction in Parliament of a Bill to remove the effects on the Barony of Cobden of the Act of Attainder of 1603, with the intention of the eventual calling of the barony out of abeyance in favour of the claimants to that peerage; and, if so, will he say why is legislation for the purpose of depriving their Royal Highnesses the Dukes of Cumberland and of Albany, now in arms against this country, of their seven peerages of England, Great Britain, Ireland, and the United Kingdom, of which they are the holders, to be postponed till the end of the War, regard being had to the fact that the War is not held to be a barrier to the removal by legislation of the effects of an Act of Attainder which has been in force more than three centuries, and the postponement is calculated to engender the suspicion of perferential treatment in the case of delinquents in high positions?
As my hon. and learned Friend points out, these dukes have already been expelled from the Order of the Garter, and I do not think that the time and energy of this House would be usefully employed by the consideration of the legislation which would be necessary to effect all but one of the remaining steps my hon. Friend suggests. I am informed that the Royal Hanoverian Guelphic Order is not a British Order.
May I ask, Are any public moneys granted to these men or received by them now?
I would require notice of that question.
May I ask whether the Crown acts on advice in reversing attainders and calling out of abeyance ancient peerages, and, if so, what is the use in adding four fortuitous votes to the House of Lords at present?
It is an automatic process.
Would my right hon. Friend not have the legislation introduced in the House of Lords and thus avoid the waste of time here?
It would have to come back here.
Would it take three minutes to get through this House?
May I ask whether the Committee of Privileges does not merely report that certain peerages are at His Majesty's service, and whether it is really an automatic process, and does it not depend on the exercise of the Sovereign's discretion?
I beg to give notice that I will call attention to this matter on the Adjournment for Easter.
It is done in this, as in all other matters, on the advice of his Ministers.
Would not any legislation on these points be as wordy as these questions, and be a great waste of printing ink and paper?
Local Government (Emergency Provisions) Bill
As amended, to be printed. [Bill 21.]
Orders of the Day
Finance (New Duties) Bill
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 1.—(Duty on Payments for Admission to Entertainments.)
(1) There shall, as from the first day of May, nineteen hundred and sixteen, be charged, levied and paid on all payments for admission to any entertainment as defined by this Act an Excise Duty (in this Act referred to as "Entertainments Duty") at the following rate (namely):
Where the payment does not exceed 2d. ½d. Exceeds 2d. and does not exceed 6d. 1d. Exceeds 6d. and does not exceed 2s. 6d. 2d. Exceeds 2s. 6d. and does not exceed 5s. 3d. Exceeds 5s. and does not exceed 7s. 6d 6d. Exceeds 7s. 6d. and does not exceed 12s. 6d. 1d. Exceeds 12s. 6d., 1s. for the first 12s. 6d. and 1s. for every 10s. or part of 10s. over 12s. 6d.
(2) No person shall be admitted for payment to any entertainment except—
( a ) with a ticket stamped with a stamp (not before used) denoting that the proper Entertainments Duty has been paid; or
( b ) in special cases with the approval of the Commissioners, through a barrier which automatically registers the number of persons passing through the barrier.
If any person is admitted for payment to any place of entertainment and the provisions of this Section are not complied with, the person admitted and the proprietor of the entertainment to which he is admitted shall be liable in respect of each offence to an Excise penalty of fifty pounds, and the proprietor shall in addition be liable to pay any duty which should have been paid.
(3) Entertainments Duty shall be charged in respect of each person admitted for payment, and, in the case of admission by ticket, shall be paid by means of the stamp on the ticket, and in the case of admission by barrier, shall be calculated and paid on the number of admissions through the barrier.
Entertainments Duty, in the case of admission by barrier, shall be recoverable from the proprietor, and may, if the amount of duty is less than fifty pounds, without prejudice to any other means of recovery, be recovered by the Commissioners summarily as a civil debt.
(4) Where the payment for admission to an entertainment is made by means of a lump sum paid as a subscription or contribution to any club, association, or society, or for a season ticket or for the right of admission to a series of entertainments or to any entertainment during a certain period of time, the Entertainments Duty shall be paid on the amount of the lump sum, but where the Commissioners are of opinion that the payment of a lump sum or any payment for a ticket represents payment for other privileges, rights, or purposes besides the admission to an entertainment, or covers admission to an entertainment during any period for which the duty has not been in operation, the duty shall be charged on such an amount as appears to the Commissioners to represent the right of admission to entertainments in respect of which Entertainments Duty is payable.
(5) For the purpose of the provisions of this Act relating to Entertainments Duty—
The expression "entertainment" includes any exhibition, performance, amusement, game or sport to which persons are admitted for payment; and the expression "admission to an entertainment" includes admission to any place in which the entertainment is held;
The expression "admission" means admission as a spectator or one of an audience, and the expression "payment on admission" includes any payment made by a person who, having been admitted to one part of a place of entertainment, is subsequently admitted to another part thereof for admission to which a payment involving duty or more duty is required;
The expression "proprietor" in relation to any entertainment includes any person responsible for the management thereof.
The following Amendment appeared on the Paper in the names of Mr. Rutherford and Sir J. Harmood-Banner: In Sub-section (1), leave out the word "first" ["first day of May"], and insert instead thereof the word "fifteenth."
I propose to accept this Amendment, and in the absence of the hon. Members I beg to move.
We have not heard any reasons why this Amendment has been put down or why it has been accepted. Will the Chancellor tell us what it means?
It only means the postponement of the tax until the 15th day of May, in order to get the machinery in order. My hon. Friends perhaps moved it for different reasons.
Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to give this concession to some of the other taxes, such as mineral waters?
The hon. Gentleman had better wait until we come to it. I cannot tell for the moment.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, in Subsection (l), to leave out the word "May" ["first day of May"], and to insert instead thereof the word "September."
By the proposal in the Bill this tax is going to fall on amusements of various kinds at for them the leanest part of the year. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the harvest for all entertainments of all kinds, outdoor and indoor, is practically from the beginning of September until the end of April. The football season is in the winter months, and no taxes for that item can be collected during the summer months. Seeing that the Chancellor has already granted a postponement of a few days, I would ask him to take into consideration the postponement of the tax until the commencement of the real entertainment season. I know the right hon. Gentleman wants the money, but as the real season begins in winter the tax will be more acceptable to those concerned than falling in the leanest part of the year. I do not put it higher than that.
4.0 P.M.
I cannot accept this Amendment. The whole purpose of introducing the present Bill instead of waiting for the main Finance Bill is that we may get a full year of the tax.
Amendment negatived.
The following Amendment stood on the Paper in the names of Mr. Fell, Mr. Barnes, and Mr. Tyson Wilson: In Sub-section (1), after the word "duty" ["an Excise duty"], insert the words "of ten per cent. on the total receipts of such entertainment."
I think that this Amendment as it stands on the Paper imposes a charge beyond the Ways and Means. Resolution. In addition to that, it is rather a large change from the basis authorised by the Committee of Ways and Means, and I am a little afraid of setting a precedent in that respect. Possibly the Committee would not regard it as a precedent if the hon. Member suggested 5 per cent. in order to raise the point whether the tax should be imposed on the tickets or on the total receipts.
I have tried to get as near as possible to the exact amount of the tax proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I thought that 10 per cent. would come slightly below the amount taken in the Bill. It is below in many points and a trifle above in others, but I think that on the whole it would be slightly below. A great deal depends upon the number of cheap tickets and the number of high-priced tickets issued. I do not want to reduce the Chancellor of the Exchequer's receipts. Perhaps he will allow me to move 9 per cent.
It is not a question for the Chancellor of the Exchequer; it is a question for the Chairman. As near as I can reckon the hon. Member will have to come down to 5 per cent. in order to avoid exceeding the authority of the Ways and Means Resolution.
Then I beg move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "duty" ["an Excise duty"], to insert the words "of five per cent. on the total receipts of such, entertainment."
I am glad to see that since I put down this Amendment it has also been put down by representatives of the Labour party. It is a most serious Amendment, and if the Chancellor of the Exchequer can see his way to accept it, it will save him not only considerable opposition which has been foreshadowed, but the great difficulties with which he will be faced in the collection of the tax. The object of imposing the duty is, of course, to raise money. There may be the secondary object of restricting to some extent the spending of money on objects on which the Chancellor of the Exchequer thinks that money is being too freely expended. I should not wish for a moment to prevent the securing of that object. I am entirely at one with the right hon. Gentleman in wishing that some restraint should be placed on the expenditure of money on amusements of this kind during a time of war. But on the main principle whether each ticket should have a tax upon it or whether you should take the gross receipts there can be no difficulty whatever in getting the sum which the Chancellor of the Exchequer chooses to fix, whether it be 10 per cent., 5 per cent., or any other proportion. The one account that all proprietors of entertainments keep is that of the gross receipts. If you ask what their profits are they will tell you that they depend on the services of many people. The one figure that is known and upon which you can rely is that of the receipts. There are many tickets given away; whether paper of that sort will have to be stopped I do not know. The gross receipts, however, are known, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer can collect on them such sum as he thinks fit. If the tax is imposed on the gross receipts it will be left to the proprietors of the amusements to charge such additional price as is suitable. They might add it to the higher-priced tickets or do it in whatever way they thought best so as to recoup from the public the money they would have to pay to the Exchequer. I think they would have much less difficulty in doing that than the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have in fixing what prices could be charged.
I think the right hon. Gentleman is adopting a dangerous principle in saying that there shall be a certain charge on every 1d., 2d., or 6d. ticket. It is to some extent regulating the prices of entertainments. I am confident that the collection of the tax under that system would be most difficult, whereas the collection of a percentage on the gross receipts would be as simple as possible. I believe that in Russia the tax is 10 per cent. on all amusements, and I am told that the amount realised is very large. I hope that a very large sum may be derived from the tax in this country. With regard to the method of checking the receipts, the Chancellor of the Exchequer's attention has been called to places where there are only turnstiles and no tickets are issued. But there are many places where there are neither turnstiles nor are tickets issued; the people simply go through a gate and put down their money. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer will find it difficult to collect the tax in those cases. The local surveyors of taxes, however, would know all these entertainments, and they could get the total of the receipts every week; the books would be open to them, and they would be able to collect the money week by week. I believe that a large sum would be got in cash with the minimum of trouble if the Chancellor of the Exchequer could see his way to adopt my suggestion.
I do not dispute for a moment that there is a great deal in the way of convenience to be said for the proposal of my hon. Friend, but I very much doubt whether, even as it stood on the Paper, it would bring in anything like the same revenue as that which we propose to get under our scale. I certainly could not consider any drop in the revenue. We have to recognise that this tax is not intended as an additional Income Tax. It is not proposed that people should pay a tax in proportion to the amount that they spend on amusements, assuming that people spend on amusements in proportion to their income. It is intended as a tax in addition to the Income Tax in order to distribute the burden of taxation over the whole community, including that class which does not pay Income Tax now but still has money enough to spend on amusements. I have approached the subject from the point of view, first, of obtaining revenue, and, secondly, of obtaining revenue in proportions which seem to be fair as far as I can judge over the classes affected, and I have thought that the scale which we have put forward secures the objects that we have in view. The hon. Member proposes a different scheme. I admit that if you put the percentage high enough—not 10 per cent., but probably 15 per cent. or 20 per cent.—you might get the same revenue
You would at once squeeze out the smaller houses.
I might get the same revenue, but I am sure that the tax would not fall in anything like the same way. It would, in many cases, be a pure new tax upon the proprietor of the entertainment. The tax as at present proposed is not merely one that is intended to be passed on, but it is one that will be passed on to the subject in a way which we think, having regard to the whole scheme of taxation, is fair. For these reasons I think it would be inadvisable to accept the Amendment. As regards the difficulty of raising the tax in the case of football matches and other shows where there is no turnstile, I can only inform my hon. Friend that it is proposed that there should be turnstiles; we shall have to insist upon accurate accounts being kept automatically if necessary in order to ensure that the tax is fairly levied.
The hon. Member opposite (Mr. Fell) has the prior place on the Paper, but I can assure him that he is in error in supposing that we put the Amendment down because we saw it already on the Paper in his name.
It was on the Paper yesterday.
I am sorry that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not given a more sympathetic reply to the proposal. I still think that it would be a far better way of imposing the tax. I am glad, however, that he has made the concession with regard to children's matinées. I have no objection to this tax in principle, for I think the industry is a profitable one, and that there is a great deal of money made out of it. Incidentally, I may say that it is a very fine thing to consider that the picture palaces during the last few years have acted as a counter-attraction to the public-house, and the questionable companionship of the streets. Therefore I have nothing to say against them. On the other hand, I have nothing to say against the tax, because I believe a large amount of money is to be got and ought to be roped in by the Treasury. But I object to the tax as it is down in the Bill for two reasons which have been briefly put by my hon. Friend opposite, but which I may repeat. The first reason is because of the unfair incidence of the tax, and, secondly, because of the method of collection. So far as the incidence is concerned between one class and another, let me give a few figures. At the lowest end of the scale the ½d. to be exacted on anything up to 2d., taking 1½d. as an average, means that the tax is one-third of the average payment under 2d. The 1d. tax is a one-fourth tax upon the average price between 2d. and 6d.; whilst the 2d. tax on the average tickets between 6d. and 2s. 6d. is one-seventh and a half on the average of 1s. 3d.; whilst the 3d. tax is one-fifteenth of the average price of the ticket between 2s. 6d. and 5s. The scale starts from one-third, or 33 per cent. on the lowest, and descends to one-fifteenth in the case of any person who is in a position to pay for a ticket at 3s. 9d.
On the question of doing justice as between one and another, I do not think the Chancellor can justify that scale. I know that a tax inevitably tends to fall to the bottom, but regarding the bottom class as a whole, and between different parts of that class, we can attempt to do something like justice, and justice is not done by this scale, and I suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that it ought to be done. I admit the force of the interjection of my hon. Friend behind me (Mr. Hogge). It seems weighty, and it is weighty. So far I have been dealing with picture palaces and like places having a range of price from 2d. to 2s. and 3s.—at all events, picture palaces I know in London. I know there are some picture palaces in the very poor districts where the entrance is 1d. and 2d., and I admit the weight of the interjection of my hon. Friend so far as these picture palaces are concerned. The entrance may go just beyond 1s. for the boxes, where the nuts of the district take their best girls; but so far as that range of prices is concerned, I submit to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that there is no answer to what I said. It is unfair to charge a person who pays 1½d. or 2d. to go into such a place 25 per cent. or 33 per cent., and to charge the person who is in a position to pay 1s. or more only one-thirty-third, or one-fifteenth. Therefore, I object to the tax on the ground of its incidence.
Let us turn to the other case, the object of the Bill. In Clause 2 we get arrangements for gathering in the tax. I find there that the Commissioners will make Regulations, under certain heads, for the payment of the Entertainments Duty. Under paragraph ( c ) I see there is provision for controlling the use of barriers. Just fancy! I never saw a picture palace with more than two entrances, though there may be some. To make provision for collecting this tax as proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer there must be at least four or five barriers. I should like to know the people who drew up this Sub-section of Clause 2! Have they any idea of a picture palace? Did they ever go into one? If they did, I venture to say they would never have put in a nonsensical provision like this that in any case it is impossible to apply.
made an observation which was inaudible in the Reporters' Gallery.
Alternative methods? That may be a way of getting over it. These barriers are absolutely impossible. I agree with my hon. Friend opposite when he asked why all this confusion and injustice when you can collect the tax just the same as an ordinary tax. I appreciate the argument of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that this is not a tax upon the proprietor, but upon those who see the show. But, after all, why should you not leave the proprietor to adjust the weight, whether it be 5, or 6, or 10 per cent., or whatever you may think to be the equivalent of what you are proposing? Let the proprietor adjust the burden as he thinks proper and expedient in the carrying on of his business in the ordinary way. If you impose 10 per cent., and he finds it impossible to get 10 per cent. from his patrons at the bottom of the scale, he will make it 5 per cent. and, if he is a sensible man, adjust the balance by putting 15 per cent. on his patrons at the top. That seems to me to be a much simpler way of collecting this tax than the way proposed in the Bill. I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer may, in the light of what has been said, reconsider the matter. I admit the weight of the objection of my hon. Friend below me. There may be some way of meeting it. For instance, you may have the same method whereby, instead of charging 10 or 15 per cent., or whatever may be agreed upon, in the larger places where the charge is not above a certain amount, the tax might be 5 per cent. That, it seems to me, is a very easy way of getting over the difficulty. At all events, I submit the charging of a certain percentage on the proprietor would be a much simpler and easier way of collecting the tax, and would afford an opportunity of lightening the tax at the bottom at the expense of those at the top.
I do not know, Mr. Whitley, whether you can give us any guidance as to whether we might have the whole of the discussion on the various alternatives on this Amendment, and so dispose of the questions which arise here, namely, whether there should be an alternative form of collecting the money, or whether there should be a different gradation of the price, because obviously they are all one and the same subject. If we have a separate discussion for this, and also discussions on the separate Amendments, we may waste a very considerable amount of time, and that I am sure the House does not desire to do.
Yes, that was certainly my intention. I have allowed a little latitude on this Amendment to save the time of the Committee in regard to the detailed Amendments to come later.
There is the difficulty of dealing at the same time with the question of the principle, and also of the scale. Perhaps it would be desirable to consider whether or not you are to have an all-round scale, and then to go on to the question of what the scale should be in detail.
I did not mean, of course, that I should rule out subsequent Amendments, but it had occurred to me, as to the hon. Member for East Edinburgh, that much time later might be saved by taking a rather wider view of the first of these Amendments.
I am very much obliged to you, because I think we can all put our points upon this particular Amendment and then move the seriatim Amendments rather more shortly. I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will not agree to the suggestion made in this Amendment for the collection of the tax. I made an interjection when my right hon. Friend (Mr. Barnes) below was speaking, and he agreed that it had for him considerable weight, and if I may expound that in a sentence or two I think I can show the House what the collection of the tax in this way would mean. You, Mr. Chairman, pointed out that in the Amendment as it was moved the 10 per cent. would be increasing the charge, and therefore the Amendment woul require to be less than 10 per cent. My hon. Friend opposite immediately accepted the 5 per cent. and moved accordingly. Therefore, if this Amendment were carried, it would require to be carried at a figure lower than 10 per cent. That is obvious so far as the Rules of the House are concerned. Look what would at once happen! I think there is a great deal of ignorance about the amusement business throughout the country. Part of the discussion has been concentrated upon the cinema. This tax seems to be regarded entirely from the point of view of the cinema theatres. We must bear in mind that there are other places of amusement, and in particular the theatres, which are also involved in this tax, and that there are different classes of entertainment houses throughout the country. When you talk about cinemas what occurs to the ordinary person is what are known as picture-palaces, that is the large continuous cinema entertainment that you find in all important thoroughfares of our large towns. But I can assure the Committee that this is a very small part of the cinema trade. If you go into the larger industrial towns throughout the length and breadth of the country you will find another type of cinema entertainment—the usual type of two performances per night. If you go further into the smaller towns, villages, and counties, you will find the cinema entertainment usually conducted, not in a building built for the purpose, but in some disused chapel, or unoccupied garden, which has been taken and converted into a cinema theatre, and that is run for the amusement of the people in the village. I agree with my hon. Friend that these entertainments, in lightening the routine of life, both in the town and in the country, are invaluable.
If you adopt the plan of collecting the tax on a percentage, what will immediately happen in the great number of our large cities? You could not distribute 5 per cent. on the increased price of tickets. It would be impossible to distribute the 5 per cent. by itself and secure it in the increased sale of tickets. That is obvious. Now the Chancellor of the Exchequer has told us, and I think the House agrees, that these taxes in the Bill are practically an attempt to get from a large class of the community something equal to the extra taxes that are being put on income in the higher walks of life. He has told us quite frankly when he put on those sums of money that he will get them from the working classes in the extra price of the tickets. But if you only collect 5 per cent. you do not get it out of these people because you cannot distribute it. More than that, the profit of the larger houses would be such that they may be able, and will be able, in most cases to get that increase in price, whereas the smaller houses will not be able to get it. Take, for instance, the cinema theatre. The expenses of a cinema entertainment is largely in the films that ar shown upon the screen. Once this has been met, whether in a very large house or in a small house, the takings at the "gate" are so much profit. Your large house would be able out of its larger profits to give an increased entertainment in the value of the films, and the smaller house in a great many parts of the country will be unable to compete with that and will be driven out of the business. I am perfectly sure the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not want that.
With regard to the scale, we all appreciate the fact that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has exempted what are known as children's matinées. The question as to whether this scale in the Bill meets the equity of the situation is another point. I think all Members will realise that it is too high at the lower stages and too low at the higher stages. That has already been pointed out, even so far back as the discussion in Ways and Means, and, therefore, I will not weary the Committee with percentages, but I will give one illustration of what it means from the actual receipts of a house for which I have taken the trouble to get actual figures. This is a house where the charges are of the most popular kind—2d., 3d., 4d., and 6d. Members will know what the tax will be on those tickets, if they look at the Finance Bill. Worked out on the basis of those figures, the tax that would be collected in this particular instance on the tickets from 2d. under—that is, including the 1d. tickets—would be £425, as against £167 on the threepenny, fourpenny, and sixpenny tickets. That is to say, 70 per cent. of the tax would fall on the receipts from 2d. downwards, and only 30 per cent. on the seats from 3d. to 6d.
What is the proportion of seating accommodation as between the more expensive and the cheaper portions? Surely that is relevant.
I do not think the hon. and learned Member was present at the discussion on the Second Reading, when I gave figures of this particular case. It was a house in which the seating accommodation, reckoned in terms of the whole year, was half a million, and the attendance a quarter of a million, and I took out the figures for the twopenny, threepenny, fourpenny, and sixpenny seats. Reckoning the tax for the whole year, the result is that 70 per cent. of the tax falls on the twopenny seats and under, and only 30 per cent. on the seats between 3d. and 6d.
But the real point is, how many people sat in the cheap seats, and how many in the more expensive seats.
I can give my hon. Friend those figures if he cares to have them. The greatest number of people sat, obviously, in the 1d. and 2d. seats. I have the figures on the paper which I hold. I will give the different seats for a quarter. During that period the 6d. seats numbered 2,300, the 4d. seats 4,800, the 3d. seats 6,800, the 2d. seats 25,700, and the 1d. seats 23,000. That gives some idea of the way in which the seating accommodation was filled. I am making no more of the point than to show how the people who pay 2d. and under will have the bulk of the tax put upon their shoulders.
Why not?
"Why not?" says the right hon. Gentleman. I was reading at lunch time to-day, and I noticed in "Truth" the description of my right hon. Friend as a politician who all his life has been in favour of self-denial for others. I do not know if that is true or not, but the reason why these people should not be called upon to pay that large excessive taxation is that they cannot afford to do it. Because people go in large numbers to a cheap entertainment a great number of persons think that they do that because they have plenty of money. They would not sit in a twopenny seat, without arms, and on a wooden board, if they could afford a more comfortable seat, and the reason they do not go to a more comfortable seat is that they cannot afford it. The reason you have such a large number of people attending this sort of entertainment and occupying these cheap seats is that this is an entertainment that fits their purses, and therefore I am going to suggest when we get into detail a different gradation of the taxes. I read out to the Chancellor of the Exchequer before, and I dare say he has looked into it, a proposal to make the tax more equal by amounts which I have on the Amendment Paper. That is all I want to say at this stage of the proceedings, and I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will stick to the point, that, at any rate, he will not take the money by this alternative method of collection, and that he will be prepared to meet us in some way by lessening the incidence of the tax on people who can less afford to pay it. These people have no objection to making their contribution to the revenue, so long as it is an amount that they can afford, and if the Chancellor of the Exchequer will regard it in that way he will find his tax not unpopular at all, but one which the people will be quite willing to shoulder, and which they will shoulder quite cheerfully.
The point put forward by the Mover of the Amendment and the representative of the Labour party seems to me to be not a good one. The proposal is that this tax, though obviously intended as a tax upon frequenters of entertainments, is to be passed over to the providers of those entertainments. I think that is most improper. When one realises the enormous burdens which those who provide these entertainments already have to bear, and the enormous contributions they now make to the State, it would obviously be wrong to run the risk of adding to those burdens, and adding to them by a tax which the Government mean, and I believe the Committee mean, the public should pay. If that is so, then I think the first duty of the Government is to see that the imposition of the tax is of such a nature as to ensure that the frequenters of those places of entertainment shall bear the tax, and I think it would be an intolerable burden placed on the proprietors of those places of entertainment to ask them to collect the tax and to hand over, whether it is 5 per cent. or 10 per cent. of their gross takings to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. That is not what the tax is meant for, and I submit it would be most undesirable.
As to the point raised by the hon. Member who spoke last, I admit that is a much more difficult point, and I admit there is a lot more to be said for it, although I cannot agree with the conclusions at which he has arrived, nor was I moved by the case he put forward. I quite agree it is difficult to exchange figures across the floor of the House, and I have not, perhaps, fully understood his case, but, so far as I did, according to the figures he produced, it was to prove that the burden fell much too heavily on those who occupy the lower-class seats, and, if I remember rightly, he said that something like three times as much money is taken from the occupants of the lower-priced seats as from the occupants of the higher-priced seats. Analysing the figures he gave us—and I am sure the hon. Gentleman has taken a case which, at any rate, is not a bad case from his point of view—I find that in the penny, twopenny, and threepenny seats there were no less than eight times the number of people who occupied the fourpenny and sixpenny seats.
You cannot take the threepenny seats, because the tax for the fourpenny, fivepenny, and sixpenny seats is the same as for them.
I agree. My hon. Friend is quite entitled to that point. No less than eight times the number of people occupy those seats, and I think something like five times occupy the penny and twopenny seats.
I can give the hon. and learned Gentleman the exact proportions now. It is one to five of the lower-priced seats.
That strengthens my argument that, if there are five times the number of persons sitting in the penny and twopenny seats as in the threepenny, fourpenny, and sixpenny seats, then I do not think it is a very great imposition if the amount exacted from those people is as three to one compared with those sitting in the higher-priced seats. I think that on the figures the hon. Gentleman has put forward they get off very well. I am sure the Chancellor of the Exchequer has appreciated that it is a very great difficulty to start to tax people who pay only a penny or even twopence for an entertainment. The whole Committee realises the difficulty, and I am sure no one present will suggest for a moment that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is overtaxing out of a desire to overtax. I can conceive it possible that the Chancellor of the Exchequer might say with respect to the penny seats he would not impose such a tax, and though I can sympathise with such a view, I still express a hope he will retain the tax he has put in this Bill as being as fair as any Chancellor of the Exchequer could devise.
It appears to me very much better to adhere to the principle of taxing seats on a scale, rather than to attempt any system of percentages. One could give many illustrations of the difficulties of both methods, but I think that the method adopted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer really involves the smaller number of evils and difficulties. If you adopt the method of the percentage, you will have the difficulties of the free tickets, tickets that are given in exchange for advertising bills, and the tickets that are given on a sort of truck system for many of the commodities provided at cinema theatres, football grounds and other places. You do not get a clear-cut, simple method of arriving at the actual number of people who visit the entertainments by any system of percentages, whereas, if you adopt this scale of taxes, you get everybody into the net, and I feel quite certain, from the conversation I have had with various proprietors of cinema theatres, at any rate, that the percentage system would certainly be resisted by them. It would inevitably mean that the proprietors of the entertainments would have to pay the tax sooner or later. Of course, the competition as between the large and small places would, sooner or later, mean that the large places could afford to pay the tax, and the small places, which could not afford to pay it, would have to do so. In fact, you would be imposing another Income Tax. If the proprietors of large places can afford to pay, why not have a special Income Tax for them—but that is another subject.
I understand the proposals of the Chancellor of the Exchequer are to secure from the large number of people who are not making very considerable contributions to the Exchequer, something they can afford to pay towards the heavy war burdens, and I do not think any working man who can afford to pay 2d. to go to a picture show would object in these times to pay in addition a ½d. stamp duty. I rather regard it as an insult to the working classes to suggest that they want to escape the payment of the tax. I can never understand why Members will get up in this House and give the impression that the working man wants to pass all his tax on to someone with a bigger income than himself, and to suggest that a man is not willing to pay a ½d. tax to go to a picture show, and wants someone who buys a 6d. ticket to pay his own tax and the workman's tax as well, is not the sentiment, at any rate, which inspires the working men in the districts I know. I think it is a privilege to allow the working man to pay his share of the taxes, and when you come to a question of a tax upon the receipts of places of amusement, to suggest that because a man pays a little more for his ticket he must pay a great deal more tax is really ludicrous. The man who pays 6d. does not see more of the pictures than the man who pays 2d. Of course that argument does not apply in the case of Income Tax, for a man pays according to his means, but in talking of a special tax such as this it is ludicrous to suggest that a man must pay a great deal more because he has a higher-priced seat and nothing if he has a cheaper seat. I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will stick to the principle he has laid down, and if he does, I feel satisfied that working men will be willing and will gladly pay their proportion of this tax.
I think too much has been made of the difficulties of collection in regard to this tax. I believe there were no such difficulties in Petrograd, and the right hon. Gentleman could easily solve this problem by a reference to our Ambassador in Russia, who, I am quite sure, would be willing to tell him how this tax is levied in Russia. My hon. Friend opposite apparently desires to convert this tax, which really does provide for some distribution of taxation, into something like an Income Tax, and he argues that it should be resisted on that ground. I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will stick to this tax as strongly as he always does when it is a case of taxing the Income Tax payer.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move to leave out the lines:
I am neither right honourable, nor do I represent Glasgow.
I was referring to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Glasgow (Mr. Barnes). I gather from the figures given that those who pay the smallest charge to go to places of amusement pay at a greater ratio than those who pay a higher entrance money. The people who pay the smaller amounts are those who certainly enlist my sympathy in the greatest degree, but I am not concerned so much by those who attend cinema theatres, and other theatres, because those of us who go to see the legitimate drama or the higher form of theatrical amusements do not grudge the taxes placed upon us by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. My sympathies, however, go out to those who indulge in open-air amusements. I have in mind those who attend football matches, play cricket, and engage in any form of outdoor sport. I have in mind in an especial manner the Gaelic Athletic Association of Ireland. I had the honour many years ago to be one of the founders of that association, and I know that they will be very badly hit by this tax of ½d. on 2d. admission and 1d. on the charges made between 2d. and 6d. According to the figures put before us by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge), we know what a heavy charge that will be. The charges between 2d. and 6d. are the entrance fees mostly charged in the case I have in mind, and I wish to impress upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer that if he sticks to these figures we shall impose a very great hardship upon a great number of people in Ireland.
Open-air amusements ought to be encouraged and not discouraged by taxation, and they ought to be maintained because they take people out into healthy amusements. Let me point out that there is at the present time serving at the front more than one Sports Battalion recruited entirely from amongst those who have been professional men in these sports. In the early stages of the War they were slack in coming forward, but when it was pointed out that it was their duty, in a special manner, to devote to the services of the country those physical energies and qualities that had been developed in the open field of amusement they were not slow in coming forward to do their duty, and at the present moment at the front there are many battalions who have been recruited from the field of sport. I believe I am right in saying that many of these men have won high honours in the field because of the physical courage developed in the open field of amusement, and they have been enabled to exercise those qualities in such a way as to win Victoria Crosses and other high orders that are given for courage in the field. For these reasons I propose that these two lines be deleted altogether from this Bill, and I ask that the ½d. and the 1d. tax be entirely abandoned by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
I wish to ask you, Mr. Chairman, if you can see your way to put the Question from the Chair in such a manner as to save my Amend- ment, which comes at the beginning of the words which the hon. Member opposite has proposed to omit?
With conflicting Amendments I am afraid that position sometimes arises. The hon. Member has moved the omission of these two lines, and I must put some words to the Committee.
Could the Question be put that those lines be left out?
I am afraid not. I propose to do the best I can under the circumstances to save subsequent Amendments, and I will put the Question, "That the words 'does not exceed' stand part of the Bill."
The effect of that is to pass by the point at which my Amendment would come in.
I am afraid that is inevitable where there are conflicting Amendments. Of course the hon. Member may put his point upon the Amendment we are now dealing with.
I hope my hon. and learned Friend will not press this Amendment, because it really amounts to negativing the effective value of the tax. The great bulk of the revenue will be obtained from the entertainments at which the cost of entrance does not exceed 6d., and to leave out these two lines would take away the whole purpose of the tax. I quite admit that everyone is reluctant to impose additional taxation upon the poorer members of the community, but when the richer members—and I include people who are not wealthy—have such tremendous burdens put upon them, if their poorer neighbours have money to spend in entertainments, I am quite sure that they will be willing to bear their share of this tax. I really could not think of leaving out these two lines.
5.0 P.M.
It is the custom in Ireland, and particularly in the West, to have weekly athletic meetings, and in connection with such meetings there is no gate. The meetings are held to bring people together who are competing with each other in sport in friendly rivalry. Sometimes parish committees take advantage of such occasions and impose a small charge for admission. Surely the right hon. Gentleman does not intend in such cases to compel those committees to estab- lish a turnstile in connection with such meetings! If the right hon. Gentleman contemplates anything of that kind it would have a most disastrous effect upon the meetings which are held in my part of the country. I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to carefully consider this matter, with a view to giving relief to committees having charge of such meetings, and not place upon them the obligation of providing turnstiles. This tax will have a bad effect upon outdoor sport at a time when there are too many attractions which entice young men to travel abroad, and we are anxious to keep them at home. We are anxious to give them a home interest, and we do so by occasionally providing them with amusements on Sunday. The tax proposed would have a disastrous effect upon sports meetings in general, and I therefore second the appeal which my hon. and learned Friend has made.
I should like to call attention to an observation which the Chancellor of the Exchequer let fall, that the adoption of this Amendment, as proposed by the hon. and learned Member opposite, would deprive him of the bulk of his tax. He admits quite frankly that the bulk of this £2,000,000, or whatever it may be—
£5,000,000.
He admits that the bulk of this £5,000,000 is coming out of the pockets of these poor people.
No, No! My right hon. Friend must not suggest that the 2d. and 6d. on every occasion are paid by the poor. On the contrary, very rich people pay 6d.
The bulk of the tax is coming out of the pockets of those people who would be excluded from the payment of it if this Amendment were adopted. The bulk of these people do not pay 6d., but 1d., 2d., and 3d. I think, if my hon. Friend's figures were analysed, it would be found that the very great bulk of them pay 1d. or 2d. Therefore, I want to call attention to the fact, and to emphasise it, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has now admitted that the bulk of this money is coming out of poor people's pockets.
No!
Well, that is my interpretation of it, and the justification given for that was that rich people were bearing heavy burdens. Rich people are not bearing the heavy burdens that they ought to bear. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, according to his own statement, is leaving 23 per cent. of excess profits in the pockets of people who have done nothing for them. That is an additional argument why we should resist this tax taken out of the pockets of poor people. I would ask you to be good enough to guide the Committee, so that we may save the subsequent Amendments, in one of which I am interested. It does seem to me that the Rules of the House ought to be capable of saving these Amendments. If we reject the larger Amendment of the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite, surely it ought to be open to us to pass a part of it, and I would appeal to you to put it to the Committee in such a way as to preserve the Amendments of the hon. Member for the Tradeston Division (Mr. Dundas White) and myself.
As I have already pointed out it is impossible for me to do that. I am bound to put the Question that some words stand part of the Clause.
Might I point out to the hon. Member who, I think, has raised a real point with regard to entertainments the proceeds of which are given to charities, that his case would be covered by the Amendment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer subject to one point. The right hon. Gentleman, I think, will find that according to his Amendment the person responsible for the entertainment must provide turnstiles. I would suggest, when he comes to his Amendment, that he should consider whether the Act should apply to such places, because otherwise he may find himself up against a practical difficulty.
In view of the point of Order, I would appeal to my hon. and learned Friend that instead of having his Amendment negatived he should withdraw it in order to give an opportunity for any subsequent Amendments.
Before I accede to the suggestion and request of my hon. Friend I desire to point out to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that there is a way by which he could meet my suggestion. Why not exempt open-air amusements? In the course of this discussion theatres and picture shows have been in everybody's minds as the source from which the right hon. Gentleman hopes to get the largest amount of this tax. Since I had the honour to address the Committee I have received telegrams from Ireland. My hon. Friend alluded to the hardship to our associations in Ireland who carry out amusements, particularly on the Sunday. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] There is no need to say "Oh, oh!" We say, "The better the day, the better the deed." It is pleasing to Nature and Providence that we preserve and increase health, the great gift of Nature and of Providence, even on the Sunday. It must be pleasing to Providence—
"Dublin Council Gaelic Atheletic Association emphatically protest against proposed entertainments duty in Finance Bill affecting Hurling Gaelic Football or Atheletic sports and request your support secure exemption. Gaelic Association which is purely Honorary Association not conducted for profit of players."
"Gaelic Atheletic Association, Cork, at meeting unanimously decided request you and Party use utmost endeavour secure withdrawal proposed tax entrance our games. Average gross receipts 3 years £600. Loss three years' working £50. Tax means loss of £100, and"
something. It is awfully badly written by the telegraph people. At all events, these telegrams go to show that you have touched a very sore spot in Ireland. This tax will have the effect of injuring, if not entirely destroying, an amusement which has not been carried on for the mere purpose of profit for the players, but for the useful purpose of preserving the health of the people. If any benefits are derived, as my hon. Friend has pointed out, they are devoted to charitable and philanthropic purposes. That is a different state of things from that which exists here. It is a different state of things from that which exists at picture shows. You say that you want to get this large tax from cinema and picture shows, theatres, and so on. At the same time, you have got a most deserving association, an honorary institution that may be called philanthropic if not charitable, and why not exempt it? I feel very strongly on this point, because I know that my Constituents and my countrymen feel very strongly on it. I cannot accede to the request of my hon. Friend unless the Chancellor of the Exchequer will suggest to me that he will put in some words in the Bill that will safeguard the institutions on whose behalf I make the appeal. I am sure that he can easily do that and meet the case I have made to the Committee.
As I understand, the only case of hardship given by my hon. Friend (Mr. Duffy) is that of open-air tournaments where an entrance fee is charged for visitors, but where the money is wholly devoted to the philanthropic purpose of developing athletic sports, and not to private profit. We have already an Amendment on the Paper that will cover the case if the takings are not devoted to the expenses of the entertainment, but wholly to the philanthropic purposes described by my hon. Friend. With regard to the point of Order, may I ask you whether my hon. Friend (Mr. Dundas White) would not have an opportunity of raising his point by moving an Amendment to the Amendment which I have down upon the Paper—
[At the end of the Sub-section (4) to insert the following new Sub-section:—
(5) Entertainments Duty shall not be charged on payments for admission to any entertainment where the Commissioners are satisfied—
( a ) that the whole of the takings thereof are devoted to charitable and philanthropic purposes without any charge on the takings for any expenses of the entertainment; or
( b ) that the entertainment is of a wholly educational character (any question on that point to be determined in case of difference by the Board of Education); or
( c ) that the entertainment is intended only for the amusement of children, and that the charge is not more than one penny for each person—]
could he not move to leave out the words, "that the entertainment is intended only for the amusement of children, and" with the result that the words would stand "that the charge is not more than 1d. for each person"—would not that give my hon. Friend the opportunity he desires?
I do not think it would, because my Amendment is not limited to what are called children's matinees. It was meant to avoid the 50 per cent. tax on the 1d. ticket, which is generally the half-price ticket for children.
That is precisely what would happen if the words were taken out as I suggest.
There is no turnstile existing at the present time. Does the right hon. Gentleman contemplate forcing these people to construct turnstiles?
If the proceeds from the sale of the tickets are subject to private profit then a turnsile will have to be put up, but if, as described by my hon. Friend, they are wholly devoted to philanthropic purposes then they will not be subject to the tax, and there will be no need for a turnstile.
If this Amendment is disposed of, negatived or otherwise, I take it that my hon. Friend the Member for the Tradeston Division (Mr. White) will be all right, but I want to make sure of my own Amendment. Should I be in order in moving to substitute 2d. for 1d. on the same Amendment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer?
When the Amendment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer comes on, I think both the Amendments will be in order, but I cannot say what the exact effect of them will be. I do not think it would be in order, however, to go back and say that the 2d. ticket, which we have already decided, should be exempt, but with regard to the 1d. ticket I think it would be.
If the hon. and learned Member withdraws his Amendment, would that still be open?
If the Amendment is withdrawn, then the field is open.
I understand from the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he has an Amendment upon the Paper which meets the point that I have raised.
No, I do not want the hon. and learned Member to be misled. The Amendment on the Paper speaks for itself. I am unable to say whether it meets the point my hon. and learned Friend has in view, but it does meet the only case which has been raised by the hon. Gentleman who sits next to him (Mr. Duffy).
The point I wish to raise is that associations which carry out amusements for honorary and philanthropic purposes should not be hampered by any such tax. If the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman will meet that point, then I have no more to say. My hon. Friend pointed out that we carry out these amusements in Ireland in open fields; there are no turnstiles, but there are gates, and the funds received at the gates are not devoted for the purposes of private profit. Will the Amendment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer meet that point? If it does, I will ask leave to withdraw my Amendment, and I will do so without any hesitation whatever, because I know there are Amendments on the Paper which very probably will receive considerable support, their object being to reduce the ratio of the tax, and I should be very sorry to hamper such' a suggestion as that.
My hon. Friend must judge for himself whether my words meet his point. The words on the Paper are:
"That the whole of the takings thereof are devoted to charitable and philanthropic purposes without any charge on the takings for any expenses of the entertainment."
I desire to call attention to those last words. I do not think my hon. Friend intended that the takings should not be devoted to the expenses of the meeting.
I can see danger there. The right hon. Gentleman will not be the judge on the bench who will have to give the legal interpretation of the word "philanthropic." If he were in that position I believe he would give an interpretation favourable to my view, but other persons might not do so, and might not interpret the word so as to include amusements started, not for private profit, but for the purpose of encouraging healthy amusement. If the amusements referred to are to be treated by the Department as philanthropic, then I need not go a step further. I suggest it is quite easy for the right hon. Gentleman to put in words which will make that clear, and if he will do so I will not trouble the Committee with a division.
I am afraid I cannot go further than I have done.
Possibly this class of entertainment might be dealt with under another Clause later on which defines the word "entertainment." Besides purely philanthropic performances and entertainments there are lots of things on the border line, and on a subsequent Clause it is intended to call attention to certain societies like the Botanic Gardens, which are kept up by the members. Some of these societies are now slumbering, if not unfortunately dead. There are a great number of cases in which we shall ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to consider a claim for exemption, and I would suggest to the hon. Member for Kildare that the question he desires to raise could be dealt with better at the same time. Amendment negatived.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out "2d." ["does not exceed 2d."] and to insert instead thereof "2½d"
For the purpose of levying this tax the charges of admission to entertainments have been graded. The first step is 2d. and the second is 6d. If the first step is taken at 2d., then I foresee some difficulty about a charge for admission which is a very popular charge—I mean the charge of 3d. It would become an impossible charge. But if an inclusive charge of 3d. were made, of course, the amount of tax paid would be one penny, so hat the proprietor would only receive 2d. The real tax leviable on a 2d. ticket should be one halfpenny. I therefore propose to take the first step at 2½d., instead of 2d., in order that an inclusive charge of 3d. may be made, and a popular price of admission thereby preserved. It is all very well to say that an inclusive charge of 4d. might be made, but people who now pay 3d. pay it because they have not got 4d., and one result would probably be that they would go to these entertainments less frequently.
May I ask the hon. Member, what, "under his proposal, the tax would be if the admission charge were 2½d.?
It would be ½d.
But is not the hon. Member's proposal "where the payment exceeds 2½d. the tax shall be 1d." I take it that if it does exceed 2½d. the tax will be 1d.
If the hon. Member will look at the Clause itself he will see it reads "does not exceed 2d.," and my proposal would admit of an inclusive charge for admission of 3d.
When I was listening to my hon. Friend the answer I made up my mind to give was that if you increase the charge, as he suggests, the charge for tickets would be 3½d. But he has now convinced me that that is precisely what he wants. The result would be, however, a very great loss of revenue. I cannot think that a man who pays 3d. to go into a cinema show cannot afford an extra 1d., and I am assured by those engaged in the business, who have been good enough to help me with their advice, that they do not anticipate any substantial reduction in the attendance in the 3d. seats because of this charge.
I am not quite certain whether the Chancellor of the Duchy has given any consideration to the fact that a very large number of picture shows have been specially fitted up for soldiers who are admitted at a very small charge, generally speaking a charge of 2d. I venture to urge that some consideration should be given to these men in view of the exceedingly low pay which they are in receipt of. I wish the right hon. Gentleman had fixed the step at a point which would have relieved these places of entertainment, and I hope that between now and the Report stage he will consider their claim.
The right hon. Gentleman says he has been informed by people engaged in the trade that they anticipate no practical difficulty in getting the extra money if the admission charge is raised from 3d. to 4d. But I have some acquaintance with cinematograph proprietors and I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that had they been confident they could have got 4d. as easily as they get 3d. they would have charged the 4d. rate long ago; they only charge 3d. because they know they cannot get 4d. The result of this scale of charges will be a regrading and repricing of all the seats in the theatre, and I do not think the right hon. Gentleman is going to get as much out of this tax as he anticipates he will by increasing the price from 3d. to 4d.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move, in the same Sub-section, to leave out the words "a halfpenny," and to insert instead thereof the words "a farthing."
We all agree there must be a scale, and I wish to suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that the scale as it stands is unfair. This tax is a good tax and sound in principle, and I hope it will come to stay. But it is very desirable that it should be based on a sound and fair scale, and it is very undesirable that people should be able to say that the pleasures of the poor are taxed at twice the rate of those of the rich. The Treasury should take two principles to guide them in framing the scale. The first should be that there should be no exemption, and the second, that all classes should pay alike, and that the burden should fall equally on all. The first principle is easy to secure; the second, I agree, is more difficult. Reference was made just now to the percentages which this scale will be responsible for. I have made calculations, and I have worked it out that the scale as it stands will produce these percentages: On the lowest scale of all, the ½d. duty, we have a tax of 50 per cent. on the 1d. ticket and 25 per cent. on the 2d. ticket. The next scale runs from 2d. to 6d., which shows an average of 25 per cent. In the class from 6d. to 2s. 6d. the average is a little over 11 per cent., while the class from 2s. 6d. to 5s. is most leniently treated, the average percentage being 6.6.
The class from 5s. to 7s. 6d. pays just over 8 per cent. The class from 7s. 6d. to 12s. 6d. pays 10 per cent., and the class above 12s. 6d. pays a small fraction over 10 per cent., so that the Government scale as it stands—I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will consider the matter very carefully before he decides to defend it as it stands—is this: Up to 6d. the tax ranges from 25 per cent. to 50 per cent., and above 6d. it ranges from 6½ per cent to 11 per cent. Speaking generally, you may say that the people who pay 6d. or less are taxed from 25 per cent. to 50 per cent., and the people who pay over 6d. are taxed in the neighbourhood of 10 per cent. That cannot be right, if it is avoidable. I suggest in this Amendment that the ½d. rate should be ½d., and in another Amendment which I have down on the Paper I suggest that the 1d. rate should be made ½d. If these Amendments were adopted by the Committee, the result of the scale would be that upon a 1d. ticket the duty would be 25 per cent., on a 2d. ticket 12½ per cent., on the next class 12½ per cent., and the others would remain as I stated to the Committee a moment ago. The practical result would be that while people paying over 6d. would be taxed upon the present scale, the people paying under 6d. would be faxed a little more than 12½ per cent., or 15 per cent., instead of 25 per cent. to 50 per cent., as they are as the scale stands. The smaller class of pleasure seeker would be still more highly taxed, but not with that unfairly high discrimination against him there is at the present time.
Is there any practical reason why what seems to be common fairness should not be accepted by the Government? I anticipate that the Chancellor of the Duchy will raise two objections. First of all, he will say that a duty of a farthing on a ticket cannot be passed on. With regard to the passing on of duties, it seems a very poor excuse for putting on an unfair tax to say to a man that there does not exist a coin small enough to tax him fairly. Apart from that, the Treasury are quite wrong if they suppose that theatre proprietors are going to pass on this tax in the crude manner of charging each ticket with precisely the amount of the tax added to the present price. I do not think the theatre proprietor will do anything of the kind. He will pay his duty in advance on all the tickets that he is going to sell, and he will then sell those tickets at such prices as suit him and his business. It does not at all follow, however you arrange your scale, that the burden will fall upon the particular classes of theatre-goers in the proportions you propose. For that reason, it is no answer to my suggestion to say that you could not charge 1¼d. or 2¼d. for entrance to the theatres.
The other objection I anticipate is that it will reduce the revenue from the tax. No doubt huge sums are spent on these cheap tickets. With regard to that, all I can say is that the Treasury must fix their scale as may be right, but it is no excuse for taxing people unfairly to say you must tax the small people unfairly or you will not get sufficient revenue. I do not at all desire to base this Amendment—which I respectfully ask the Committee to consider seriously, and which I submit removes a gross and palpable blot from this scale—on any sentimental ground of taxing the pleasures of the poor. I am inclined to think that these cinema places, especially the cheapest of them, are a considerable national evil. I know that they were referred to in very strong terms a short time ago by a very experienced judge—the judge of the London Sessions, who was for a long time in this House. They were referred to as a national evil. For myself, I think the amount of money that is being spent in picture shows at a time like this is nothing less than a disgrace to us as a nation. But that is no reason why we should tax them unfairly. The object of taxation should not be to punish people for going to picture shows, but to obtain revenue from all classes of the community. On these grounds I shall listen with great interest to hear what practical reason the Chancellor of the Duchy has to adduce, if he does not accept this Amendment, for not accepting it. It would undoubtedly produce what we have not now got by the present scale, namely, a scale which taxes the people who go to different priced seats with fair and approximate equality.
I imagine that the second Amendment of the hon. and learned Gentleman is consequential upon the first?
Yes.
I have listened to the Debate both to-day and on previous occasions and I do not feel at all impressed by the percentage argument. In the course of our discussions in the House of Commons it is sought very often on different occasions to prove a great deal by percentages. I do not think it helps you very much, inasmuch as you cannot practically charge less than ½d on a 1d., and it is absolutely useless to try to charge 5s. on 10s., because you would not get the money. Therefore you have to consider, first of all, what the various priced seats will bear and upon that take expert opinion, and then you have to consider whether, in taxing them as highly as you think they will bear to be taxed, you will be doing any substantial injustice. In my humble opinion, which I submit with all respect to the Committee, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer said just now, you have to take this tax in relation to the whole of the Budget. These taxes are put on designedly to take substantial contributions towards the War from those who are not hit, or not hit so directly, by other direct taxes. Therefore, when you come to the higher scale, you get consolation—if you are moved by the percentage argument—by the fact that those who sit in the more expensive seats have to bear other charges which are not borne by those who sit in the less expensive seats. When I come to the practical difficulties of the hon. and learned Gentleman's suggestion, I find, on the estimate we have been able to make, that his first Amendment, which brings into operation a demand for an almost extinct coin—a farthing —will cost £164,000. I do not know what the bankers of the City of London would say if His Majesty's Royal Mint were put on to coining farthings instead of coining silver. His second Amendment would cost £1,280,000. I submit that if we are going to put on these taxes we cannot afford to lose such a substantial sum of revenue as that, and I would urge the Committee to reject the Amendment.
The scale which has been proposed is a fair one. The idea of calculating everything on percentages is very dangerous. There is another point of view when you remember that a man who pays a ½d. tax pays only the twenty-fourth part for his amusement as compared with the man who pays 10s. for his ticket. There is a danger of getting very little revenue at all from the most expensive tickets if we accept the hon. and learned Gentleman's proposal. There is one other point which, perhaps, is not quite in order on this Amendment to which I have not heard the right hon. Gentleman refer. We have not heard definitely how this tax is to be collected, and whether there is to be a stamp on each individual ticket. Perhaps we could have some information on that point.
I called attention to this point before. I was convinced by the speech made by the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Salter) in moving the Amendment. You will not escape the evils so easily as the Chancellor of the Duchy suggests. It has been and will be strongly urged against this Tax that it is a very undue burden on the poor. As to the difficulty of the farthing, that is really beneath the Chancellor of the Duchy. He must know, if he pays any attention to what is going on, that farthings are coined in very large quantities at present, and that it is a common coin in parts of London and all places where the poor live. At any rate, the difficulty does not arise in regard to these tickets, as I understand that the tickets will be sold in large quantities for 3d. or 6d. a dozen. Some attempt ought to be made to meet the injustice of the lower scales. In order that I may be perfectly fair and so escape the criticism which I levelled at the Chancellor of the Duchy, I will go this far with him and say that I think the greater evil is in the lower scale. He said the Amendment would cost £164,000. If he could offer some adjustment up to 3d. or 4d., without giving away the £1,000,000 of which he spoke, and if he could make some concession in this direction, it would greatly abbreviate the discussion on the Bill. It seems very hard to take ½d out of 1d., or even 25 per cent. on 2d. To put that right would not be very costly. With regard to the second Amendment suggested by the hon. and learned Member, perhaps that is too sweeping. As we do not want to have two discussions on the point, I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, without going the whole length of the second Amendment, he can do something to meet what is an obvious injustice and what would be, if it remained in the Bill, a great blot upon it?
With regard to the coining of farthings there is an additional difficulty in any case, which must be met either by the Mint or somebody else. The introduction of ½d. tax is the introduction of a new tax into every range of tickets that is sold, and the proprietors of these places will obviously require to have a very large number of halfpennies in order to deal with the ½d tax on all tickets up to 2d. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman contemplates with equanimity the provision of so many halfpennies for the purpose of giving change in all the various cinemas. As that is the case now, there cannot be anything in his argument against the farthing. I do not quite understand what the Chancellor of the Duchy meant in his reference to poor people. Does he mean the Committee to believe that the poor and working classes of the community to-day are not bearing their fair share of taxation? You are putting up the price of sugar which will fall upon the very class which goes to that kind of entertainment. I do not want the Debate to close without it being said that, at any rate, that there were some people left in the House of Commons who understood the working classes and what they were able to bear, and how they spend their money even if the occupants of the Front Bench do not.
Amendment negatived.
The following Amendment stood on the Paper in the name of Mr. Hogge: After the words "Where the payment," insert the words "does not exceed 1d. … free."
The Amendment in the name of the hon. Member imposes a charge.
It is quite true that my Amendments impose a charge as they stand separately, but taken together they would not impose a charge. They are simply Amendments which are part of an alternative graduation of the tax.
That requires a very elaborate calculation which I am not prepared at the moment to enter into. As I see it at present it does impose a charge. The hon. Member must raise it on Report or at some other time.
I beg to move in Subjection (2), after the word "entertainment" ["for payment to any entertainment"], to insert the words "where the payment is subject to Entertainment Duty."
I move this to meet the abjection raised "by the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite who raised it on another Amendment. He suggests that as Sub-section (2) stands these regulations for admission to a, place of entertainment would apply, whether the place of entertainment was subject to this tax or not. I think that makes the matter clear.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, to leave out the word "of" ["excise penalty of fifty pounds"], and to insert instead thereof the words "not exceeding."
As this Clause now stands a person attending any form of entertainment, as well as the proprietor, is liable for any infringement of the Bill. Supposing, for instance, a number of young people passed through the barrier and the barrier failed to automatically register, they are liable, not to some small fine, but to a fixed figure of £50, which I do not think can be the intention of the Government. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman, as an improvement in the wording of the Act, whether it would not be right to insert the words "not exceeding," so that, whoever is brought up for an offence against this Bill, it should, at any rate, be left to the discretion of the magistrate to fine people whatever sum they thought right, not exceeding £50. Another reason is that it is quite possible, even in connection with stamps on tickets as well as barriers, that perfectly innocent people may be technically contravening this Clause, and they are liable to exactly the same penalty as the proprietor, who may be discovered to be deliberately defrauding the Government. In view of two such totally different points, I think the right hon. Gentleman should agree to the suggestion I have made.
I regret very much that the hon. Baronet did not go very much further in this Amendment than he proposes to go. I cannot conceive that the Government have really examined what the effect of this Clause as it now stands would be. Hundreds of people might enter a place of entertainment without any idea of fraud whatever, but simply owing to the fact that the persons in control of the place of amusement had not complied with the law, in stamping tickets or constructing a turnstile in accordance with Government regulations, would be liable to a fine of £50. In my opinion that is the most grotesque proposal that hag ever been submitted to the House of Commons. The only proper course would be to omit altogether the words "person admitted," leaving the proprietor of the entertainment, who is the only person who could be responsible for fraud, the only person liable to a fine. Is it to be argued that anyone who is going to a cinema show or to a theatre, or to any form of amusement, is to examine his ticket to satisfy himself that the law is complied with before he buys a 1d. or 2d. ticket? There never was a more grotesque proposal. I therefore hope the hon. Baronet will withdraw his Amendment and propose it in a more radical state, which I am sure the Government will accept, to omit altogether the power of fining a person admitted.
Really there is no more substance in this discussion than there has been whenever a penalty Clause is before the House of Commons. Why should one immediately assume that an innocent person would have to pay the maximum penalty? [An Hon. MEMBER: "There is no alternative!"] Of course there is an alternative. Any lawyer will tell you that any Court of Summary Jurisdiction can fix any penalty it likes. To say he should be liable to a penalty of £50 does not mean that he shall have to pay that amount and no other. My hon. and learned Friend suggested that it would be a monstrous thing to make a visitor to an entertainment, who has no knowledge of the law, pay a penalty of £50. But we want some check against possible collusion between the proprietor and those who frequent his theatre with a view to defrauding the revenue. We copied in this Clause the wording of any number of other Acts of Parliament of the same kind. I will consult my legal advisers again, but what the hon. Member and the hon. Baronet want to do is already done in practice, and, in fact, by the wording of the Clause.
What is the objection to putting the words in? If the intention is that the magistrate is to have a discretion, why not say so?
The right hon. Baronet knows as well as I do the objection which lawyers have to putting superfluous words in Acts of Parliament. If I find there is no legal objection, I will put down the same Amendment myself for the Report stage.
I am glad to hear that assurance given. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that so far from creating a difficulty by putting in these words "not exceeding," any lawyer would tell him that it would remove a difficulty. If you put in the figure of £50 and give no discretion to the magistrate, it really is impossible for the magistrate to impose a less penalty; therefore, I urgently suggest that he should put in these words on the Report stage.
I shall wait till the Report stage, but I certainly shall raise the question again of omitting altogether the power to fine a person who is admitted to the show. I think it is grossly unjust, and I cannot conceive any case where a visitor ought to be fined. It is the business of the proprietor, and not of the man who goes into the show, to arrange this matter with the Government.
I think there are cases, particularly in football matches, where some members of an ardent crowd may get in even where the proprietor does not wish them to; therefore, they ought to be liable to penalties. But I hope my right hon. Friend can get some words inserted on Report making it perfectly clear that it can only refer either to collusive action or to action which the proprietor cannot stop.
In view of the right hon. Gentleman's assurance, I can only withdraw the Amendment. I only desire to make the Bill workable and just.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in Subsection (4), to leave out the words "or to any entertainment during a certain period of time."
I put this Amendment down in order to find out what these words mean. In this Clause the Government takes power to place the tax on a lump sum paid for season tickets or different rates of admission for periods to various entertainments. Suppose an entertainment sells a weekly ticket which admits to the 1d. seats on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday—that is 6d. The tax on a lump sum of 6d. is 1d. On each of these separate pennies paid on each night it would be a halfpenny, and the difference betweeen these two sums is 2d. Can tickets be sold in that way? Does this Clause prevent tickets being sold in this way? Does it prevent, for instance, any proprietor of an entertainment selling a season ticket for fifty-two weeks admitting one night per week, therefore getting over all the taxes which are put out in the scale?
6.0 P.M.
I am much obliged to the hon. Member for the explanation, because I did not understand exactly what the Amendment was. It is quite obvious that we must make a charge for a season ticket issued for a definite period of time. It would leave a very serious gap in the scheme if we were to delete the words. As I understand him, he wants the charge for a season ticket proportionately reduced.
I want the right hon. Gentleman to get the taxes that he is imposing. Supposing I were a proprietor, there is nothing to hinder me issuing season tickets for a week, or for fifty-two weeks, and therefore paying the tax on the lump sum and evading the full tax that he is putting on. I am really doing the right hon. Gentleman a service in pointing out to him that it is quite possible that I could evade his tax perfectly easily in any house of entertainment all over the Kingdom if he leaves these words in.
I do not follow the hon. Member. The proprietor issues a season ticket and then the Commissioners have got to charge on that lump payment a certain sum. If he admits a person on six days to a penny seat, the charge made will be the tax for six penny tickets.
No. It says the lump sum.
Precisely. A lump sum has been paid, and it may be fivepence for six penny seats. He will have to pay, I imagine, the tax on six penny seats.
If my right hon. Friend thinks that is what it means, then, of course, we must think so. I could easily drive a carriage and pair through this particular Clause if he cares to leave us that privilege. Under those circumstances I am very much obliged, and I will withdraw my Amendment.
Will the right hon. Gentleman go into this matter before tomorrow? I am inclined to think there is something in the point raised by the hon. Member. As it stands, you appear to pay on a lump sum, which payment in itself is not the equal of the totality of the daily sum.
I cannot imagine that many people will take season tickets who would not have taken season tickets before. My hon. Friend (Mr. Hogge) does not want to leave these words out altogether. He is an expert in these matters, and if he can suggest alternative words which would meet the case I should be glad.
If I take out a season ticket for one admission a week for a cinema entertainment for fifty-two weeks that would come to 4s. 4d. The tax would be 3d. If I paid each week the tax would be 2s. 2d.; therefore my right hon. Friend is losing 1s. 11d.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move to insert at the end of the Clause as a new Sub-section,
"(5) Entertainments Duty shall not be charged on payments for admission to any entertainment where the Commissioners are satisfied—
I should like to call attention to paragraph (a) in the new Sub-section proposed by the right hon. Gentleman. It appears to me that the intention of the Amendment is to encourage charitable and philanthropic entertainments, but there is a drawback in it, and that is that if there is any charge on the takings to cover expenses they must pay the tax for going to such an entertainment. I would like to point out to the right hon. Gentleman that in all our large towns there are at the present time a very large number of charitable entertainments going on. We are raising very large sums of money for the troops, for Red Cross purposes, and for a hundred and one objects connected with the War. You cannot get people to undertake to pay £10 or £20 as the price of the hall out of their own pockets; therefore a charge of that nature is bound to be deducted from the gross amount of the takings. My right hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury) suggests that you might get them to let the hall free. Unfortunately, very few halls pay. You saw in the papers this morning there is a question of a tax upon a hall, which is costing the ratepayers £3,000 a year as the net loss upon the hall. There are very few halls in the country that pay; that is the experience of municipalities and private proprietors. I certainly think that you would not get any local body of people to undertake to raise these charitable entertainments if they have to find the money out of their own pockets. A very large number of these concerts and entertainments are got up by working men. I know of one which is to be held on Easter Sunday in my own town, which is got up entirely by working men. The only charge will be the charge for the people attending and the members of the band who will play at the concert. To ask these working men, after weeks of preparation and after they have undertaken an enormous amount of labour, to bear the cost of the expenses, otherwise the people entering that entertainment will have to pay the tax provided for under this Bill, would certainly be unfair, and it would defeat the very object which, I believe, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has in his mind. I have had some experience in getting up these concerts, and I am quite certain that you cannot get people to undertake the liability of paying perhaps £20 or £30 expenses when they raise perhaps £100 or £200 by the entertainment. You cannot ask them to undertake this liability out of their own pockets. I think the Government ought to meet them in this matter.
In the district which I represent we have a large number of schools which make a speciality of encouraging their children to learn swimming, and every year they have entertain- ments, to which the parents are invited and for which a small charge is made. The funds raised by means of these entertainments are divided, first of all, in the payment of expenses, and, secondly, to provide prizes for the children. Will this new Sub-section now proposed exempt entertainment of that kind? If the expenses have to be borne by subscriptions as part payment for the tickets, then I am afraid that will put an end to a most healthful amusement, and to a movement which is doing immense good in a district such as the one I represent, which is very poor and very overcrowded, and in which the teaching of swimming is a specialty.
I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will consider the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Stockton (Mr. J. Samuel). I will give an instance of what the hon. Member was describing, which occurred in my own town last week. The Girls' Friendly Society held a concert, the proceeds of which were devoted to supplying comforts for soldiers, and also towards helping the Ked Cross Funds. They conducted the concert and paid a lot of the expenses themselves, and it would be positively unreasonable to expect these girls, after giving the whole of their time and labour, to pay the rent of the hall, the cost of the printing and other expenses incidental to the concert. I suggest that if this Amendment is allowed to pass as it stands it will simpy curtail the number of charitable concerts and other movements for philanthropic purposes. Instead of helping such efforts, you will simply hamper the work, and really get no tax. I strongly urge the Chancellor of the Exchequer to consider the suggestion made by the hon. Member and agree to omit the words "without any charge on the takings for any expenses of the entertainment."
I am not quite sure how far this Amendment covers or is intended to cover the next Amendment which stands in my name. Perhaps it would save the time of the Committee if I ask the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to clear up the particular point which arises out of the wording of Sub-clause (b). I would like to know whether admission to a zoological garden would be covered by Sub-clause (b). I am not quite sure that the Board of Education could say that an ordinary zoo is wholly of an educational character, but, at any rate, so far as the education of school children in such a place is concerned it certainly is, if not wholly, at least mainly, of that character. I think in that case the Chancellor of the Exchequer will have to protect such a case, and if necessary the wording of Clause (6) might be altered in some way. It is perfectly true that in such places there is an additional attraction, such as a band or fireworks, but I do not think that alters the position of the children being taken to such a place for instruction. I would like the Financial Secretary to be good enough to clear up this point.
I would like to support what has fallen from the hon. Member for Stockton (Mr. J. Samuel), and to suggest that, if he can see his way, the Financial Secretary should leave out the words "without any charge on the takings for any expenses of the entertainment." I have had a good deal to do with Red Cross work and have had experience of the entertainments that are got up, and I do assure my right hon. Friend that if these words are left in it will make an enormous difference to the amount of money which is taken—and taken for what? Taken for the benefit of our soldiers and sailors and those who are suffering in different ways from the War. The belligerent forces must have the comforts and the bandages and the other things which are bought as a result of these entertainments, and if they cannot get them from private sources, then the cost will have to come on the taxes, and public money will have to be found for that purpose. I think the right hon. Gentleman will see the force of the argument. There is a certain point beyond which you ought not to expect private generosity to go. There is a point up to which you ought to help private generosity as far as you possibly can. It is a very great advantage to the State to have all this money provided by private generosity, given spontaneously, and really the right hon. Gentleman is doing a disservice to the Forces of the Crown and stemming the generosity of the public by keeping these words in. I hope most sincerely that he will cut them out.
I shall be glad to consider the representations which have been made from all parts of the House. The matter is not really as simple as hon. Members seem to think. There are a large number of entertainments now being run, almost too many, in the name of charity, only a small superfluity of the proceeds of which ever reaches charity. There are people who are quite ready to get rent for a theatre or a hall with the help of some very deserving institution. There are others who are willing to earn salaries by performances with the help of some very deserving charity. We appreciate the welcome which this tax has received from those who are connected with theatrical and entertainment circles. They have not resented in any way the imposition of the tax. I think that they have received it in a cheerful spirit, but everybody knows the sad state of an overworked actor, working six days a week and then being asked to help somebody along by performing on Sunday, and if people get into the habit of going to the theatre on Sunday they do not so willingly or so cheerfully go to the theatre on Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday. We desire to avoid by this legislation doing anything, in the hope of helping charity, that will give some people who are performing an unfair advantage over others. Therefore I suggest to the hon. Member, whose experience in these matters is so great, that by leaving out these words we should be doing harm. I should have thought that those who are making good their expenses out of these performances ought not to resent the paying of this very small Government charge. I therefore ask that the suggestion should not be pressed at the moment, and perhaps on further consideration words will be suggested for tomorrow's Debate which might possibly meet the case.
I must say that I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. We are all most anxious to help in charitable objects. At the same time, if those words be left out, it will give a loophole which might result in the loss of revenue to the State in the case of a large number of those so-called charitable entertainments. After all, if the tax is paid, it only means a very small reduction in receipts which will be devoted to charitable objects for which my hon. Friend is anxious. I do not know whether it will be possible to put in any words which would allow a small payment for the hall or theatre. The amount would have to be limited. Possibly something of that sort might be put in. I mention that as a suggestion to the right hon. Gentleman in the hope that he will not leave out the words altogether. I do not quite understand how the right hon. Gentleman is going to be sure that an entertainment is intended only for children. Paragraph (c) seems to me to open wide the door for evasion. After all, it is the parents who pay, and I am not quite certain whether at the present moment it is very desirable to encourage parents to spend money on amusements at all. I do not know whether the Act will last after the War, but at any rate it can be amended after the War. In these times I rather think it much better that children should, not be given extra amusement, but perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will say how he can make quite certain that it is only for children.
I do not propose to try to make certain of that fact, but I understand that it is a very common practice in cinemas to arrange what are called children's matinees. These entertainments are practically confined entirely to children, and are usually given on Saturday afternoons. Very often the programme is specially arranged for them, and the charge of admission is limited to a penny. I do not want to do anything to interfere with the children going to these matinees, rather than to the ordinary programme which is designed for older people, but a more forcible argument is that if you charge the halfpenny upon this the child will have to pay three halfpence. I am informed and believe it to be true that in a very large number of families in this country it is the custom to present a small child with a penny weekly as a sort of pocket money on Saturday, and if that child has a penny and can get into a cinema matinee for a penny, it will go there, but if it has to find three halfpence and has not got three halfpence, it will go to the sweet shop and purchase sweets instead, and my right hon. Friend (Mr. Lough) will immediately complain of a rise in the price of sugar.
I was quite unprepared for that thrust, but I have no more connection with sugar. I want to say a word in regard to paragraph (c). I am really interested in the point mentioned by my hon. Friend opposite about swimming entertainments for children. For many years I have taken a great interest in that movement. In London there is a universal charge of a penny which hardly covers the expenses. If the price is raised above a penny it will be quite impossible for this useful work of teaching children through- out London to swim to be carried on. Yet it is all done as a sort of entertainment. If Sub-section (c) is left as it is I think that the Sub-section is not open to the objection of the hon. Member opposite, and I hope that the Government will stick to it in the form in which it is on the Paper. I am going to make a suggestion to my right hon. Friend in response to his appeal. I think that there is a great deal of substance in what was first said by my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton about the words in Sub-section (a). Then I think that the right hon. Gentleman was justified to a certain extent in resisting. The right hon. Gentleman asked, could not words be suggested before to-morrow? I think that permission ought to be given to pay for the hall, but I do think that my right hon. Friend is perfectly justified in saying that all payments for service ought to be excluded, because if you allow payments for service to be included a very small sum would be left to the charity. I would suggest to my right hon. Friend as an Amendment the insertion of words to exclude any charge or payment for services in connection with the entertainment. That would allow the rent of the hall to be paid. I am not sure that the expression is quite watertight, but I am sure that the idea could be carried out. [An HON. MEMBER: "Advertising."] I have no objection to not allowing any charge for advertising, but I do think that permission ought to be given to pay for a hall. Subject to those Amendments, I desire to thank my right hon. Friend for an Amendment that I consider extremely valuable.
I desire to ask a question, not for my own satisfaction, but for the satisfaction of some of my Constituents. It is not very clear in this Subsection what charitable and philanthropic objects are. Take the Sunday schools, temperance societies, and hosts of other associations of a similar character. I want to know whether this tax is to apply in these cases, where there is no private or personal profit, or whether it will apply to these associations which get up the entertainment in the same way as it does to theatres, music halls, cinemas and so on?
I desire to ask a question somewhat on the same lines. Undoubtedly, there is considerable vagueness as to the words "charitable and philanthropic purposes." These would exclude a vast proportion of the most deserving entertainments which are now being held. Nobody would contend that providing comforts for soldiers is a charitable work. [An HON. MEMBER: "Philanthropic!"] What I am pointing out is that the words of the Clause are that the purpose must be charitable and philanthropic. I do not think that the Red Cross is a charity. I do not think that anything done for our soldiers at the front should be called a charity. Charity has got to be associated in the minds of the public with the relief of people in distress, and I do not think that it is a proper expression to use in connection with entertainment to provide comforts for our soldiers. I would further ask the right hon. Gentleman, in his reply, to give a little explanation of what his ideas are as to the area that would be covered by charitable and philanthropic purposes. Philanthropic is a very vague term, and I think that at an earlier stage in the Debate the point was raised, and the Chancellor of the Duchy himself said that it would be explained when we got to this Amendment. The Chancellor, in explaining paragraph (6) said that the entertainment was to be of a wholly educational character. That also was a very wide and vague statement. Does that apply to what I might describe as school entertainments or physical exercise; swimming, for instance, and sports which are held, not for the purpose of profit, out of which no profit is taken beyond what pays the expenses of carrying on? Are these held to be educational? I would certainly hold them to be educational, and most valuable from the educational point of view; but it is perfectly plain that even the Sub-section contemplates that there may be some difficulty, because any question on the point is to be determined by the Board of Education. I am not quite sure that the Board of Education is the best body to determine it, but what I want to point out to the Chancellor is that we have no Board of Education in Ireland. I am sure that he does not propose that this question in Ireland should be determined by the Board of Education in England. He must have some corresponding body to settle that question in Ireland, because it would be really quite preposterous that a question arising in Ireland, as to whether an entertainment is of a wholly educational character, should be referred to the Board of Education in this country to determine. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to deal with those two points.
The point which I raised, so far as I can see, is scarcely covered by paragraphs (b) and (c). What I have in mind is interschool competitions throughout a locality, in order to show the degree of proficiency which the children have attained, and their parents are usually present. That does not appear to be covered by paragraph (c), because the parents come to be amused, and it is not covered by paragraph (b), which says "of a wholly educational character." Swimmining is educational, but this interschool competition is an exhibition of the proficiency which has been acquired during twelve months at the ordinary baths, and the parents come to see it. I should like to have that class of entertainment covered by this Clause, more especially having regard to the poor districts, where it is a matter of the utmost importance.
I think the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) is justified in his comment on the use of the word "charitable," and I would suggest that the difficulty might be met by substituting the word "or" for the word "and," making the words read "charitable or philanthropic." I quite appreciate what has been said as to the undesirability of allowing all the expenses to be paid out of the takings, but if you allowed only 10 to 15 per cent. of the expenses to be paid out of the takings, that might meet the needs of the case. Where 10 or 15 per cent. is taken for the payment of expenses in connection with the class of entertainment contemplated, I think it would really meet the case put forward by my hon. Friend. It would allow for the expense of taking a hall and yet get over the objection that the expenses being made too heavy.
I have an Amendment which I should like to bring forward, but I do not know whether it would not come more properly on the next Clause. I am, however, entirely in the hands of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I would point out that there are entertainments, like the Zoological Gardens, where there is a regular charge for admission, and sometimes there is an additional attraction in the shape of a band or orchestra, and the question is whether that should be rogarded as an entertainment coming within the scope of this tax. The purpose of my Amendment is to secure that those cases shall be exempted. Take a place like the Botanical Gardens, where a charge is made and where a band plays, or, on some occasions, an orchestra is provided, whose performance would constitute an entertainment subject to this tax. I have also in mind certain tea-gardens provided from philanthropic motives as a counter-attraction to the public-house. Are those places to be treated as places of entertainment when there is a band of music, or tennis, or other attraction which would render such a place liable to this taxation? I am in the hands of the Chancellor of the Exchequer or of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury as to whether I should move my Amendment now or later. I should put it somewhat in the form that the Clause should not include entertainments consisting only of an occasional orchestra, or attraction of that kind, taking place on premises where the charge for admission is made without regard to whether there are these entertainments or not.
In regard to the word "charitable," it has been inserted in other Acts of Parliament, but it has been used in a very wide sense. I have known charitable subscriptions given to the Vivisection Society and also to the Anti-Vivisection Society, and it is apparent that the word has been given a very wide signification. The point to be kept in view is that there must be something about an entertainment which is of a philanthropic character. Even in a wider form the Clause would be difficult of interpretation, and I think that the Clause should be drawn as widely as possible in the interests of the administration of the Act.
There are one or two points to which I should like to call attention before we agree to this form of words. In Scotland there are entertainments where there is no charge at all for admission, but a collection is made. My hon. Friend reminds me that a collection is made in church, but I presume he does not mean that that is an entertainment. As I have said, there are entertainments in Scotland where the proceeds are taken by way of collection, and precisely in that way the tax might easily be evaded. I hope that will be borne in mind. With regard to paragraph (b), who is going to determine whether the entertainment is of a wholly educational character? Is it the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the first place? It is not the Board of Education, which has only to determine a case of dispute. I submit that in the first place the Treasury officials will determine whether or not an entertainment is wholly educational. Are they competent to do so? I understand that they are extremely competent at collecting the money, but here we have a point of opinion involved. My hon. Friend below me suggests, for instance, that swimming is of an educational character. That may be true in the case of inter-school competitions of which my hon. Friend was speaking in favour, and which I would agree to accept. But everybody knows that the average swimming gala attracts the public not for educational reasons, but by a comic polo match, or some other comic feature of the programme to attract a crowd, and to get money for carrying on the educational work which my hon. Friend and others have in view. I am only pointing out that there are extreme difficulties which you are going to get into. Take another form of entertainment. We have all over the country a series of lectures connected with philanthropic and other institutions. Once a month lecturers are brought down, some to lecture on Parliament, or finance, or perhaps on cartoons, the lectures sometimes being illustrated. Some of them are educational; some of them are entertaining. Are the officials of the Treasury to determine which of these are educational and which of these are entertaining?
I really think there will be great difficulty; certainly there will be great difficulty for the Board of Education. Is the English Board of Education to determine whether a Scotch lecture is an entertainment? A performance by Harry Lauder on the variety stage in England is educational, because it educates the English people to understand the Scottish character, and being educational it would exempt from the tax the theatre in which he was performing. The use of the word "entertainment" is intended to mean only entertainments for the amusement of the children, but, should it be proved that it was not merely for the amusement of children, then the entertainment would be brought within the tax. My right hon. Friend, if he looks at the next line in the Clause, will see the words "the charge is not more than one penny for each person." A person is not a child. My right hon. Friend is a very considerable personage, and he would get admission for a penny to what was intended for the amusement of children. I know you do not mean that; I know that you do not intend that grownup people should get admission for a penny without taking the tax out of them. I suggest that if you wish to carry out what you intend you should change that word "person" to "child."
The suggestion was made to me by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that my Amendment to exempt 1d. tickets from the 50 per cent. tax might might find a place in the Clause which is now before the House. The object of my Amendment was that these penny tickets used, not merely at children's matinées, but also used by children going in with their parents at other than a matinée performance, should be exempt from the 50 per cent. tax. I was unable to bring that Amendment forward because of some technical rule. After going very carefully into this matter, my hon. Friends and I have come to the conclusion that we could not get it into this Clause, which is really a Clause of a different character. In the circumstances I have a suggestion or two to make in regard to this Clause. I suggest that if a provision is inserted allowing for rent that the discretion should be limited to cases where the rent is a bona fide rent, and that the proprietors should not be allowed to charge a rent to themselves in order to make a deduction. With regard to the words "charitable and philanthropic," I would point out that the word "charitable" has been given a very wide interpretation in litigation under the Wills Act and other Acts, and perhaps if the change suggested were made some entertainments which the House would be inclined to tax would escape.
I have to thank my right hon. Friend for this reception of my suggestion to leave out certain words in paragraph (a). I quite admit that he pointed out certain difficulties which I had not in my mind. I did not include the payment of artists, and persons who made a profit out of these entertainments. In the case of the bulk of the concerts which are held for Red Cross work, and for providing comforts for soldiers, as a rule the services are given freely, and therefore no charge is made. I certainly think some provision ought to be made to cover expenses such as advertising and a reasonable amount of rent for the hall, and otherwise I am afraid the concerts could not be held. With reference to paragraph (c), which deals with amusements for children, some of the pictures are not amusing, and the children would only be amused by a series of amusing pictures. A definition is, I think, wanted, as if exception were taken it might lead to litigation.
Would it not be possible in the case of philanthropic and charitable entertainments, and I think it would be a good plan, to provide that a declaration should be lodged in some authoritative quarter giving an intimation that such an entertainment is about to take place for those purposes, and in that way the authorities could keep an eye on the entertainment and see that it complied with the conditions.
I understand the hon. Members for East Edinburgh and Ayrshire have already asked questions as to whether the Zoological Gardens or Botanical Gardens will be regarded as educational. As the Zoological Society Gardens and the Botanical Gardens are in my Constituency, I am naturally very anxious to know whether the myriads of children and others who frequent those gardens will be regarded as going there for educational purposes or for entertainment. I think they may rightly be classed as purely educational.
May I ask whether the Chancellor of the Duchy is willing to accept an Amendment to make the words read "charitable or philanthropic"?
I am told that the object we have in view is covered by the words "charitable and philanthropic." I am informed that in recent litigation a very peculiar meaning has been given to the word "charitable," and if we insert the word "or" we might go wider than we intended without serving any useful purpose. I listened to the discussion with great care, and noted all the suggestions that have been made, and it is quite obvious that this Amendment wants amending. I will try and get down on the Paper Amendments interpreting the various points that have been raised or some of them. I quite appreciate the argument of my hon. Friend behind about charitable purposes, and about entertainments which have been quite legitimately held for the purpose of charity, that some small sum of money should be allowed for rent. I do not want that to cover the case where the charitable purpose is got up by the proprietor in order to get a rent for the place. I think we may do something by fixing a limit to the amount. With regard to my hon. and learned Friend's anxiety about gardens or croquet lawns, I do not think there is any danger of those being taxed where the essential thing is to enjoy the beauties of nature and take the fresh air.
I suggested that there was a definition wanted.
I think the case is perfectly covered by the Amendment, and that it could not be said to be an entertainment, and it certainly will not be by the Board of Customs.
made an observation which was inaudible in the Reporters' Gallery.
It will be a very reasonable Government Department. While you should exempt a place where flowers are to be seen you ought clearly to tax a circus where there are performing animals. In the case of the Zoological Society, you go more often, I imagine, to see the performing animals, such as the seals catching fish, or you go to see the lions eating. I will consider the addition of some words like "Zoological Garden not carried on for profit," or words to that effect.
What about agricultural shows?
An agricultural show is really an exhibition, and may, I think, well be asked-to bear the tax. With regard to the point raised by my hon. and patriotic Friend from Scotland (Mr. Hogge), that we have actually suggested that the English Board of Education should deal with these matters in Scotland, I admit that the idea was preposterous, and I do not persist in it for a moment. We shall put down Amendments to provide that Ireland is dealt with by those who live in Ireland, and Scotland by those who live in Scotland. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about Wales?"] I understand there is a Welsh Department of the Board of Education, and I feel quite certain that the President of the Board of Education will consult that Department.
What about swimming baths?
I do think there is considerable danger in attempting to make these exemptions by Act of Parliament, at any rate at present. This is a new tax. The Board of Customs and Excise is a very busy Department, and it is not likely to give itself extra trouble by exploring various remote parts of the country where they think there is any possible entertainment to tax. I think it would be much better, on the whole, to leave the definitions of exemptions to work themselves out under the Regulations. I will try before to-morrow to see how far we can go in the Bill to meet the various points. With regard to swimming baths, those held for the amusement of children and for which 1d. is charged are exempt. If elderly and grown-up people want to amuse themselves by going to swimming baths, and paying more than 1d., I cannot see the hardship in asking them to pay a small sum.
I desire to put two points before the right hon. Gentleman. I called attention earlier in the afternoon to the difficulty which would be experienced in the West of Ireland by those who organise local sports if the provision of turnstiles is forced upon them. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to make an exception in favour of the Gaelic Athletic Association, and other associations which organise these local sports. [AN HON. MEMBER: "Why?"] Because they are organised from week to week in favour of Red Cross and other local charitable purposes. I think the House will be very reluctant to compel the committees in charge of such sports undertaken for philanthropic and charitable purposes to pay a tax. Another point on which I desire information is whether it is proposed to establish gates and turnstiles in the case of coursing in Ireland.
That does not arise here, but will arise on the next Clause. There is nothing in this Amendment dealing with the method of collection.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, in Subsection (5), to leave out the words,
I move this for the purpose of getting an explanation from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. In our great municipalities we have municipal entertainments. For instance, there is the very popular game of bowls played in our public parks, especially in Scotland. The greens are inside the parks, which are open free to the public, but the use of the bowls is charged for. The same is true with regard to the use of racquets for tennis and the use of pitches for cricket. Is that type of entertainment covered by the tax? A spectator will not be charged anything, but will the man who is going to play be taxed?
When you pay to do something yourself you cannot by any stretch of the imagination be regarded as a spectator or one of an audience. You have got to look at somebody else doing something. My hon. Friend is concerned about the man who goes to play bowls or lawn tennis. He is neither a spectator nor one of an audience.
I am concerned not so much about the man as about the type of entertainment. Take golf, for example. In Edinburgh you have a very fine golf course laid out over a public park for which you have to pay, but you are also watching a very considerable entertainment as you go round the course. It is quite all right to say that when you pay to amuse yourself you are not taxed; but if you pay for an ordinary entertainment you are paying to amuse yourself although you are being amused. If you purchase a ticket to amuse yourself it does not necessarily follow that you actually take part in the amusement. I want to be quite clear that all municipal entertainments of that kind are free from the tax. If my right hon. Friend says that they are, I am content.
Yes, they are.
Then I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.
I think that the discussion we have had must surely have convinced the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the inherent unsoundness of this tax. There have been very few speeches in support of the Clause. I was disappointed that the hon. Member for East Edinburgh wound up a most excellent speech, in which he riddled this Clause from the first line to the last, by saying that he was going to support it. I am sorry he is not going to carry his convictions into the Division Lobby and vote against the Clause. My remarks on this Clause may apply to all of the other Clauses. There are provisions here enabling inspectors to enter places of entertainment, all of which will involve an additional charge upon the Treasury. The collection of this tax will lead to an increased number of employés, and the litigation that will probably arise from the difficulty of deciding what is and what is not educational will necessitate a great charge on the Treasury; so that the result will probably be nothing like commensurate with the trouble involved. The Commissioners are to make various rules. They will have to carry out those rules or employ people to see that they are carried out. I fail to see how on any ground of equity, finance, or economy, it is a good or sound tax. The new Sub-section proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer shows the absurdity of the tax. It is really reducing finance to a low level that the House of Commons should be engaged in trying to make sense out of this particular Clause. Where are you to draw the line between what is educational and what is amusing? The difficulties will be endless. The hon. Member for East Mayo, in a very pungent speech, showed convincingly that a penalty of £50 in this matter is far in excess of what justice or equity requires. I utterly fail to see why this Clause should have been proposed. I know that I am precluded from suggesting as a substitute for this tax what many members of the Labour party are prepared to agree to, namely, that there should be a graduated tax on wages. That would cover all sections of the working classes, whereas this particular Clause taxes only those who go to these entertainments. That is grossly unfair. Many people get their amusement in other forms of recreation, such as golf, walking, or bicycle riding, but by this Clause you single out one particular section of the community. The tax presses most hardly on the poorer classes. A fax upon wages, if graduated with fairness, would be easy of collection, and would avoid all machinery involved in the carrying out of this Budget. Although by passing the Second Reading we have agreed to the principle of the tax, I wish to protest against this method of collecting revenue and against the inequity and injustice of the proposal.
Question put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 2.—(Supplemental Provisions as to Entertainments Duty.)
(1) The Commissioners may make regulations for securing the payment of Entertainments Duty and generally for carrying the provisions of this Act as to Entertainments Duty into effect, and in particular—
( a ) for the supply and use of stamps or stamped tickets, or for the stamping of tickets sent to be stamped; and for securing the defacement of stamps when used; and
( b ) for the use of tickets covering the admission of more than one person and the calculation of the duty thereon; and for the payment of duty on the transfer from one part of a place of entertainment to another; and
( c ) for controlling the use of barriers (including the prevention of the use of the same barrier for payments of a different amount); and for securing proper records of admission by means of barriers.
If any person acts in contravention of or fails to comply with any such regulations he shall be liable in respect of each offence to an Excise penalty of fifty pounds.
(2) Any officer of the Commissioners authorised by them for the purpose may enter any place of entertainment while the entertainment is proceeding, and any place ordinarily used as a place of entertainment at any reasonable times, with a view to seeing whether the provisions of this Act or any regulations made there under as to Entertainments Duty are being complied with.
If any person prevents or obstructs the entry of any officer so authorised he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds.
(3) The provisions (including the penal provisions) of the Stamp Duties Management Act, 1891, as amended, by any sub sequent Act, and Section sixty-five of the Post Office Act, 1908, shall apply to the stamps used for denoting Entertainments Duty.
(4) The Commissioners may, if they think fit, by agreement with any local authority, or police authority, arrange for the exercise by that authority, either concurrently with the Commissioners or to the exclusion of the Commissioners of any powers of the Commissioners with respect to entertainments and Entertainments Duty; and so far as required for the purpose of giving effect to any such arrangement, the provisions of this Act and any regulations made thereunder with respect to entertainments and Entertainments Duty shall have effect as if the local authority or police authority and any officer authorised by that authority were mentioned therein in addition to, or substituted for, the Commissioners and an officer of the Commissioners.
Any arrangement under this provision may provide for the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any expenses incurred by the local authority or police authority in carrying out the arrangement.
The expression "local authority" means, for the purposes of this provision as respects the Administrative County of London, the London County Council; as respects any borough, the council of the borough; as respects any urban district with a population of over ten thousand, the district council; and as respects any administrative county (excluding the area of any such borough or urban district), the county council:
Provided that where the council of any such borough (not being a county borough) or of any such urban district agree with the council of the administrative county that the borough or urban district should be included in the area of the administrative county for the purposes of this provision, the borough or urban district shall be so included.
In the application of this provision to Scotland the expression "borough" means a Royal, Parliamentary, or Police Burgh; the expression "administrative county" means a county; and references to county boroughs and urban districts shall not apply.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out paragraph (c).
I move this Amendment in order to obtain information. In the Sub-section there are certain alternative methods of collecting the duty. Does the choice of the method employed rest with the proprietor, or can the Government impose upon the proprietor the extra expenditure involved in the provision of turnstiles, for instance, which are unprocurable at the moment, and véry expensive when procurable?
The use of barriers will rest with the owner of the entertainment. If he prefers stamps the Customs will be quite prepared to accept stamps. If he prefers barriers, the Customs will accept barriers. All that the Customs desire to know is how many people go into the entertainment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (4).
In this Sub-section there is a provision for the payment of money to local authorities who have to supervise the collection of the tax. Can the Chancellor of the Exchequer give us any idea of what he proposes to do in that respect? The burden of municipal rates is very high in many places. Are the municipalities to be entirely relieved of any expenditure in this connection?
Yes. I do not anticipate that the expenditure will be large. As my hon. Friend knows, municipal authorities have staffs of inspectors for various purposes, and those inspectors will be used for the purpose of inspecting these premises. Any additional cost that may be thrown on the local authorities we propose to pay.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment made: In Sub-section (4), after the word "agreement" ["by agreement with any local authority"], insert the words "in writing."—[ Mr. Salter. ]
I beg to move, in Sub-section (4), to leave out the word, "Administrative" ["as respects the Administrative County of London"].
The object of my Amendment is to allow the Corporation of the City of London to be the authority in the City. There is a provision in the Bill by which the Commissioners may, if they think fit, by agreement with any local authority or police authority, arrange for the exercise of their powers in connection with this tax by that authority. In the City the corporation are the police authority. There are no theatres in the City nor are there likely to be any.
I appreciate my right hon. Friend's point that we should not take away from the county council or from the Corporation of the City of London any of their existing powers. But I should prefer words "as respects the City of London, the Common Council shall be the local authority for all purposes, except cinematograph of theatrical performances." As the right hon. Baronet observed, there are no cinematograph or theatrical entertainments in the City of London, but, if there were, as the law stands, the London County Council is the local body, and I do not want to interfere with its rights, but I think that for any other purposes the Court of Common Council might be the local authority, and I hope my right hon. Friend will accept my words.
I would rather have my own Amendment, but I will accept that of the right hon. Gentleman, and I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendments made: After the word "Council" ["London County Council"], insert the words "except in the City of London, where the Common Council shall be the local authority for all purposes, except for cinema and theatrical entertainments."— [ Mr. Montagu. ]
After the word "agree" ["such urban district agree"], insert the words "in writing."— [ Mr. Clavell Salter. ]
Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 3.—(Duties on Railway Fares.)
(1) There shall be charged, levied, and paid on railway passenger fares the following Excise duties (in this Act referred to as "railway fare duties"), namely:—
(a) In the case of persons travelling from a place in the United Kingdom to any place in the British Islands—
(b) In the case of persons travelling from a place in the. United Kingdom to a place outside the British Islands, on every fare, whatever the amount of the fare, a duty of four shillings, reduced to three shillings if the fare is a second-class fare, and to two shillings if the fare is a third-class fare.
(2) Return fares shall be treated as single fares, but no duty shall be charged on a return fare which does not exceed one shilling and sixpence, or on a season ticket representing such a return fare.
(3) A person shall not issue or deliver, or permit to be issued or delivered, any railway ticket to any other person or take any payment for a railway fare from any other person without obtaining payment of the railway fare duty if that duty is payable, and a person shall not obtain a railway ticket or make any payment for a railway fare to any other person without paying railway fare duty, if that duty is payable.
If any person acts in contravention of, or fails to comply with, this provision he shall be liable in respect of each offence to an Excise penalty of fifty pounds.
Any railway company or other person receiving any money in respect of railway fare duty shall account to the Commissioners for all money so received by them.
(4) The Commissioners may make regulations—
(a) for securing the payment over to them of money received on account of railway fare duties, and for the application thereto of any provisions applicable to railway passenger duty;
(b) for determining the amount to be taken as the railway fare in cases where a payment for a railway fare includes a payment for admission to any entertainment or for any purpose other than that of travelling, and in cases where payments are made on account of excess fares or season tickets.
(5) The expression "railway passenger fare" includes a light railway fare, and any money paid for season tickets, and any payment for extra accommodation for sleeping or other purposes, or for special travelling facilities, and also any through fare, notwithstanding that part of the payment for the through fare is for travelling otherwise than by railway.
I beg to move, in Subsection (1), paragraph (re), after the word "persons" ["in the case of persons travelling from a place"], to insert the words "other than commercial travellers."
My object in moving these words is to exempt commercial travellers from any duty upon their railway fares. It is quite unnecessary for me to remind the House of the character of these men and of the most important duties they discharge to the community. The effect of the Clause as it stands, and if this duty remains Operative, would be that the commercial travellers would have themselves to pay the whole duty, because by the terms of their employment in many cases—I do not say all—they have to pay their railway fares. Therefore I say that bad as that would be at any time, at a time like the present, when commercial travellers are suffering largely from lessened business, for them to have to bear this tax would be an exceedingly great hardship. I do not think this is a matter which admits of much discussion or argument, and I urge upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he cannot withdraw the whole tax, at any rate to exempt commercial travellers.
As I told the House on the Second Reading, the Government were quite prepared to give the most careful consideration to all the difficulties which had been represented to them in this matter from various parts of the House before, and during the Committee stage. I think I may say that the Government were aware of these difficulties when they proposed to impose the tax. It was, however, hoped that some means might be found to make provision for all the many difficulties which had been pointed out, and to preserve what we thought to be a revenue-producing tax which had been carefully considered by those familiar with the management of our railway lines. These gentlemen, I may observe, have given splendid and most practical service to the Government in preparing the tax. On consideration, however, of such difficulties as the one which has just been pointed out to the Committee by the hon. and learned Gentleman, and other difficulties which have been raised by my hon. Friends the Members for Derby (Mr. Thomas), for Dartford (Mr. Rowlands), and the hon. Member behind me—if I may for one moment, for the convenience of the Committee, travel outside the terms of the Amendment—we found that if we proceeded to meet these undoubted hardships the effect upon the revenue of this tax would be so serious that we came to the conclusion, by the force of the arguments put forward on Second Reading and during the Committee stage, that it was not worth while to ask the Committee— [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]—if we had any doubt as to the wisdom of our course before, that wide expression of the feeling of the House would, I think, satisfy us—not worth while to ask the Committee to go further in the matter. It is with considerable reluctance that the Government give up £3,000,000 of revenue, but the tax would have to be so mutilated as to be not worth the trouble of collecting. If the hon. and learned Gentleman will withdraw his Amendment, I shall, with the permission of the House, and in order to save time, move to withdraw the Clause.
I have pleasure in asking leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Under these circumstances, perhaps the Committee will permit me to proceed at once to put the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.
CLAUSE 4.—(Duties on Matches.)
(1) There shall, as from the fifth day of April nineteen hundred and sixteen, be charged, levied and paid on matches imported into Great Britain or Ireland a duty of Customs at the rate of three shillings and sixpence for every ten thousand matches so imported.
(2) There shall as from the fifth day of April nineteen hundred and sixteen, be charged, levied and paid on matches made in Great Britain or Ireland an Excise duty at the rate of three shillings and fourpence for every ten thousand matches so made, and so in proportion for any less quantity, and on a licence to be taken out annually by a manufacturer of matches an Excise duty of one pound.
(3) The Commissioners may make regulations prohibiting the manufacture of matches except by persons holding a licence and having made entry for the purpose, and for fixing the date of expiration of the licence, and also for regulating the manufacture of matches and the removal from the manufactory of matches with a view to securing and collecting the Excise duty imposed by this Act, and may by those regulations apply to the Excise duties on matches and to manufacturers of matches any enactments relating to any duty of Excise or Customs and to persons carrying on any trade subject to the laws of Excise, and may provide for any exemption required for the purpose of relieving from duty any matches intended for exportation or ships' stores.
If any person acts in contravention of, or fails to comply with, any of those regulations, the article in respect of which the offence is committed shall be forfeited and the person committing the offence shall be liable in respect of each offence to an Excise penalty of fifty pounds.
(4) For the purposes of the duties under this Section, a match which has more than one point of ignition shall be reckoned as so many matches as there are points of ignition.
The first Amendment on the Order Paper stands in the name of the hon. Member for Dublin Harbour (Mr. Byrne).—In Sub-section (2), after the word "thousand" ["ten thousand matches"], insert the words "boxes of"—is too large a change in the taxes authorised by Committee of Ways and Means.
I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (2), to add the words,
"Provided that matches which are proved to the Commissioners to have been made before the fifth day of April, nineteen hundred and sixteen, shall not be liable to the Excise Duty under this provision."
I should like to take this opportunity of saying that I have had the advantage of meeting the representatives of the match manufacturers, and I may say at once that any statements that have appeared that the match manufacturers were endeavouring to destroy the tax, or were acting in any way unbecoming to a great industry, are from my own personal knowledge quite unfounded. I have found the manufacturers most willing to meet us, and most helpful, and, while naturally they did not like a tax which particularly affects their trade, once they were satisfied that the tax was inevitable they have thrown themselves into the necessary work, and have assisted the Treasury in making all arrangements needed in order to give practical effect to the tax. In view of what has been stated publicly as to their action, I think it is necessary that it should be stated with equal publicity that the manufacturers have behaved as we should have expected them to behave—loyally and patriotically. The first Amendment we propose is a proviso which relieves from Excise Duty matches that are proved to have been made before the 5th of April, 1916. If we did not make this concession we should be placing the match manufacturers at home at a disadvantage as com- pared with importers. It is the desire of the whole House, I think, that while we are imposing an Excise Duty on the pro duct of our own country we should do nothing that shall prejudice any domestic trade compared with any foreign trade.
A sign of grace!
That is an attribute of grace which has always belonged to the members of His Majesty's Government. I do not know that the Amendment needs further explanation from me. The purpose of it is perfectly evident.
In the unavoidable absence of my hon. Friend the Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool, who presented the case of the match manufacturers on the last occasion when the Bill was before the House, I have been asked by the match manufacturers to convey to the Chancellor of the Exchequer their very great appreciation of the courteous and friendly manner in which he met them at the meeting yesterday at the Treasury. They would like to have that expression of thanks extended to the chairman of the Board of Customs and the other officials who had to go into details, modifications, and amendments, and who met them throughout in the most friendly manner. Of course, it is always unpleasant to have a tooth drawn, but if you must have a tooth drawn it is just as well to have it drawn by a gentleman who combines a very pleasant manner with a very firm grip of the tooth. The objections of the manufacturers to this tax were two-fold. The first objection was caused by the details in the collecting of the tax, and in the manner in which it was dealt with at first. I should like to say that those objections have been almost entirely removed by the kindness of the right hon. Gentleman. The second objection was that the manufacturers feared loss of trade, and a consequent diminution of their profits, and they feared also that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not obtain from this tax as much as he expected. I cannot say that the manufacturers are satisfied that that fear has been wholly removed, but I can say that the Chancellor of the Exchequer proved most clearly that this tax was necessary for the purpose of obtaining revenue. The moment that was proved the manufacturers told the right hon. Gentleman at once that they had no wish to escape from their fair share of the burden of the country. They still fear that the tax will not bring in as much as the Chancellor of the Exchequer thinks, but they will proceed at once to do everything in their power to make the tax work equitably and well, and no one will be better pleased than the match manufacturers, if all their fears are proved to be groundless, and no one will do more to help the Chancellor of the Exchequer to justify his hopes.
I would like to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has taken any steps to guarantee the public against an abnormal increase in the price of these matches—of which I believe there are an enormous quantity in stock at present—and as part of this arrangement preventing the public being mulcted in having to pay the difference between the normal price of yesterday and the abnormal price of to-morrow? No estimate has been given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to what the bonus given to the manufacturers will amount to.
Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
I beg to move to insert as a new Sub-section,
"(3) Where the Commissioners are satisfied that a box of matches contains more than eighty matches, the Customs and Excise Duty to be charged on any matches so contained exceeding eighty shall be at the rate of one shilling and ninepence and one shilling and eight-pence respectively for every ten thousand matches instead of three shilling and sixpence and three shillings and four-pence."
This Amendment could not be placed upon the Paper because the meeting which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had with representatives of the match trade only took place at a late hour yesterday. It was represented to us that our scale of duty pressed very heavily indeed on a very small portion of the trade mainly in the hands of smaller houses malting large boxes of matches. It may astonish some members of the Committee, certainly it was novel to me, that the larger boxes of matches represent less than 10 per cent. of the total output. They are disappearing partly because people do not like carrying large boxes of matches about with them, but I believe they are still made in the East End of London and in Ireland. In order to try and preserve a little longer this trade in the large boxes of matches, it was suggested by the deputation, and willingly agreed to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that on the larger boxes of matches there should be a reduction of duty, and therefore we propose to make this Amendment—that is, on the surplus of the small minority of boxes, exactly one-half.
I do not propose to oppose the Amendment, which I confess I do not wholly understand, but I rise just to make one observation. I think we have heard a little too much of the manufacturer in connection with this tax. It is all very well to tell us about the manufacturer's objection and about arrangements made with manufacturers, but the real people who have to bear the burden in all these proposals are the consumers throughout the country, and it is from the consumer's point of view that every proposal of this kind ought to be looked at. Manufacturers and traders generally know well how to take care of themselves. For all we know they might make money out of a proposal of this kind.
I think the right hon. Gentleman has misconceived the position. We are not now discussing the Clause, but only an Amendment. Possibly the right hon. Gentleman will allow the Clause to be amended and make his observations on the Clause itself.
I meant to bring my observations strictly within order, at any rate, by saying I did not understand this Amendment from the standpoint I am looking at. Why should larger boxes of matches, which are probably bought by the richer people, have the tax reduced by about one-half? That is the object of the Amendment, and I do not understand it. I do not desire to obstruct my right hon. Friend, but I only say it does seem to me all these arrangements with the traders and manufacturers are a bit suspicious in this connection. I think the tax itself is rather questionable, and even this Amendment, suddenly reducing the tax to one-half on large boxes of matches, is one that ought to be looked into rather fully. Indeed, the whole proposal to levy a tax on the small box or the large box is a very questionable one. I do not like, to any extent, to trespass upon any rule of order. I only say the whole subject has been looked at too much from the traders' point of view.
I do not like this tax at all. I would have much preferred if the Government could have seen its way to treat it as it has treated the Railway Tax. I do not like it for two reasons. Of course we all recognise the Chancellor of the Exchequer is out for revenue, and I admire the heroism of his Budget, but I have sat here every day, and listening to the chorus of enthusiastic approval reminded me somewhat of the man who went to the dentist to have all his teeth drawn, and then thanked him for the suitable way in which he had extracted them. This tax hits poor people very hard. I cannot at all share the view just now presented by the right hon. Gentleman. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer's Amendment, and other concessions which he indicated, are a very distinct improvement on the Clause, because it ought not to be considered solely from the point of view of the consumer. I think it is only right to consider it from the point of view of the manufacturer in a fair spirit. This is not only not the time when any tax should run the risk of destroying the business of any class, and especially that of the small manufacturer, leaving the larger manufacturer, but, moreover, I think the tax as it stands presses very hardly upon the manufacturer of matches, and for this reason: All industries in this country, with certain exceptions, which are described as war industries, have suffered from the conditions of the War, and match manufacturers have suffered in a special degree to such an extent that, without any tax at all, the price of matches has been increased to double what it was before the War. That has necessarily been owing to the various difficulties thrown in the way of manufacturers, and therefore this tax falls upon an industry which has already been affected by the War to such an extent as to double the price of the product. It is also an industry which has to carry on a very desperate struggle against foreign competition Everybody knows the competition in this particular trade is exceedingly keen and makes it very difficult for the home manufacturers to maintain their trade at all.
This is really a discussion on the whole tax. The subject before the Committee now is only a small Amendment dealing with a very small part of the trade. We had better get rid of these Amendments. There is only this one and one other, and then we shall be on the Clause.
I do not intend at all to prolong my observations. I only got up for the purpose of saying that, personally, I was grateful to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for this concession, especially as I believe it will save from extinction the only match factory we have in Ireland.
I think there is a very great deal in what the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) said, and also the right hon. Member for West Islington (Mr. Lough). I do think that this should really be debated upon the floor of the House of Commons. This concession, although I do not object to it, is really an indication of the grave dangers which will occur if we are going to tax trade. Now I strongly object to interfering with trade. I would much prefer, as I stated the other night, that when profits are realised, without impeding trade, the tax is much better put on then. I should like to ask for an explanation. I understand, now the concession is made, that there is a reduction from 3s. 4d. per 10,000 to 1s. 8d. per 10,000 on boxes which contain more than eighty matches. This in itself is a very severe tax in comparison with the former match tax. It is a very remarkable thing that the match tax was only put on in 1854.
That is on the Clause; it has nothing to do with this Amendment.
Just allow me to explain. I am—
The hon. Member cannot make a speech on the whole Clause.
I am not speaking on the whole Clause.
That is for the Chairman to decide.
I want to ask whether this is a qualification only of the second Sub-section, and not of the first— whether, in point of fact, it only refers to matches made in this country and not those made abroad?
Both.
Then I should like to have something to say about it. If the qualification is to apply to both, it appears to me that under these circumstances the manufacturer at home will be exposed to a very unfair competition. Obviously every foreign match will be sent here in large boxes. It is all very well for the right hon. Gentleman to shake his head, but it may be quite possible to split up those boxes into small quantities and thus escape the larger tax of 3s. 6d. Surely the right hon. Gentleman cannot for a moment suggest that. My hon. Friend behind me has just called attention to the extreme competition these match makers have had to meet, and really I think we ought to have on the point—
We are guarding against the evils the hon. Member suggests by a subsequent Amendment.
We ought to have both at the same time.
We are drafting the Amendment. I do not think my right hon. Friend opposite has appreciated sufficiently that a new tax of this kind falls with peculiar severity on the trade. We use the trade, in fact, as the tax collector for the nation. The match manufacturer is a match consumer, and he has to pay his tax as everybody else.
made an observation which was inaudible in the Reporters' Gallery.
The right hon. Gentleman objects for the first time to the Treasury having any sort of consideration for the difficulties which we necessarily impose upon manufacturers by these taxes. In my judgment, and in my opinion the judgment of the whole of the Committee, it is the duty of the Treasury to make the working of these taxes as easy for the trade as possible. What have we done in this case? There is a very small and rapidly declining part of the trade, and there is a certain amount of machinery in these districts engaged in that trade. That trade would disappear unless some concession were made. The hon. Baronet opposite thinks that new plant will have to be put down and the trade carried on with large boxes instead of small boxes. May I point out, if that happens, we should, of course, ask the Committee to withdraw this concession as soon as we found that advantage was being taken of it to extend this class of trade. As we are advised at the present moment, there is no chance of that happening, and it would not pay the manufacturers to put up a plant to make these large boxes. As for the foreigner doing this, I have not the least fear of that, because he has not got the plant for these large boxes, and, if he sets up such a plant in order to get the advantage of this reduction, we shall, of course, ask the Committee to increase the tax. The British manufacturers are perfectly satisfied with this tax as it stands. It is proposed by them, and they have explained the whole of the figures. We are quite satisfied that their statements are strictly correct, and under these circumstances I recommend the Committee to allow the manufacturers to have this concession.
Will the right hon. Gentleman explain what the subsequent Amendment is going to be to which he has referred?
I shall propose later, at the end of Sub-section (3), after the words last inserted, to add the words
"and for securing, in the case of imported matches, a notification on each box of the contents, or minimum or maximum contents, of the box."
I think it is very unfortunate that these Amendments are coming before us in this way.
Surely it is better to put them into the Bill now, and further Amendments may be moved on the Report stage.
It is very awkward to discuss Amendments of this description without an opportunity of talking the matter over with out friends who are interested. We have had a sort of explanation as to how these changes came about, but what I wish to state is that if you once adopt these proposals, although the machinery may not be ready at this moment for making the larger boxes, of this I have not the slightest doubt, that they will alter their machinery in order to make these large boxes. These changes have been sprung upon us, but perhaps we shall be able to consider the matter before the Report stage.
Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
Further Amendments made: In Subsection (3) leave out the words "any exemption required for the purpose of relieving from duty any matches intended for exportation or ships' stores," and insert instead thereof the words "giving the necessary drawbacks and allowances in respect of matches to be exported or used for ships' stores."
In Sub-section (3), after the words last added, insert the words "and for securing in the case of imported matches a notification on each box of the contents, or minimum or maximum contents, of the box."
In Sub-section (3), after the word "penalty" ["Excise penalty of fifty pounds"], insert the words "or, in the case of offence in connection with imported matches, to a Customs penalty."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
In the interests of the revenue, as well as the match manufacturers, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will carefully consider whether some tax should not be put upon petrol and mechanical lighters, which are sure to take the place of matches. If not I am certain, judging by the experience of other countries, and my memory goes back over a good many years, this may considerably reduce the revenue from the Match Tax. In Germany, for example, a tax of this character resulted in a great diminution in the consumption of matches, largely owing to the adoption of mechanical lighters, and a habit of this kind once adopted by the public is difficult to alter, and in the case I have mentioned the revenue is still suffering. Alike in the interests of the revenue and the trade I hope it will not be left too long before some sort of a tax is imposed upon these mechanical lighters.
I think it is perhaps desirable for me to say that what I said a moment ago seems to have been misunderstood. I should be the last man in the House to protest against us trying to meet the legitimate difficulties of a trade, and I did not intend to say a single word against that. Various friends of mine in this trade know that I was quite willing to give them any assistance I could in putting their views before the House. My objection was that we should have heard nothing from any other class of people who will be affected by this tax. My hon. Friend the Member for West Ham (Mr. Thorne) and other hon. Members have an Amendment on the Paper to omit this Clause, and I believe they have put forward that proposal in the interests of the general public. We are always put at a great disadvantage in this House when some persons with a great interest in a particular question put themselves for- ward as maintaining a certain view ands then subsequently all opposition collapses. That is what has happened in this case. I saw it announced on the placards today, "Match Tax settled." Of course I rejoiced, but afterwards what do I find? I had to-day a couple of friends to tea with me and they said, "We are glad, to see that the Match Tax is settled." I replied, "I know nothing at all about that." Now what do I find has been, settled? Simply that the match manufacturers have made an arrangement with the Treasury. I confess that that was very disappointing to me, and although I am always willing to look at a matter from a trader's point of view, I always-think that those interests are subsidiary to the great interests of the public. In the past, when I have been going abroad, I have often been asked to bring a few matches, and the one thing for which we were envied in this country was the splendid supply of good matches we possess at a low price. Although the country is now pouring money into the lap of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to a far greater amount than he can receive it, suddenly the right hon. Gentleman destroys this ancient joy of the English people by a tax on matches. I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman, with regard to big boxes or any other boxes, has decided to reduce the tax to half, and I hope that shortly we shall be able to induce him to abolish the tax altogether when he has some experience of the evil effects which are sure to be produced.
I should like to join in the protest which has been made against this arrangement being made outside the House of Commons. I heard the same thing, that the Match Tax was settled, without any consideration of the views of the Members of the House of Commons. That practice is growing very much, and the Members of the House of Commons are becoming very significant in all these matters. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Worcestershire (Mr. Wilson) is now demanding a new tax, and I understand that he wants a tax placed upon automatic lighters. I think this is really a very severe tax. The first Act of Parliament legalising a tax on matches was passed in 1854 and it was repealed in I860, and only lasted about seven years. I may say also that after the great Napoleonic Wars there was no such thing as a Match Tax, and we fought that war without any such tax. Out of the 2,600 Resolutions which Pitt proposed in this House legalising duties, there was no tax on matches placed upon the Statute Book. Matches were invented in 1828, and I can claim from my own Constituency that the first lucifer match was invented in Stockton by a chemist, and they were then sold at 1s. per box.
8.0 P.M.
The tax imposed in 1854 was a very small tax of ½d. per box on vestas, and 4d. per gross upon boxes containing 100 matches in each box. That was a very light tax indeed in comparison with this tax. I estimate that this tax is really from eight to ten times more than the tax imposed in 1854, which was abolished, I believe, by Mr. Gladstone. This shows that the consumers in this country are going to be heavily taxed in the future unless some protest is made in the House of Commons against demands of this kind. Already consumers are paying more for certain articles owing to the action of the Board of Trade in prohibiting importation. If this tax on matches was moderate there might be some justification for it, but it is a very heavy impost in comparison with the last tax on matches, which was repealed in 1860. It is the duty of hon. Members of this House to carefully watch all the bargains that are going on between people outside who are interested in particular trades, without any regard at all to the consumer, and without any regard to the opinion of Members of Parliament. On those grounds, I join with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Islington in offering my protest.
I am very much surprised that my right hon. Friend opposite should be such a simple-minded man. I profess to be only a child in these matters compared with the long experience of my right hon. Friend, but I did not think that he would be taken in so simply by the headlines of an evening paper. When I saw those headlines I must say that even in my simplicity I did not think that they meant the absolute settlement of this Match Tax. I should have thought that my right hon. Friend would have been pleased to congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon the fact that he has got over these difficulties by seeing the manufacturers and coming to some satisfactory arrangement with them. It is, and always should be, difficult for interested Members in this House to plead for certain trades, or professions, or businesses with which they are directly connected. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has helped us out of a difficulty and has saved us a great deal of discussion, and I for one congratulate him, and do not think that this little arrangement will hurt anyone. We all deplore this tax, but we must remember that this is wartime. I am not rejoicing in this tax, far from it, but we know from our own experience how matches are wasted in every direction by rich and poor, and if this tax is enforced I trust that it will do something to teach our people economy even in the use of matches. They can use spills. In my young days spills were used a great deal; in fact, they are used to-day. I know a lady who to-day uses spills, and has done so for years past. If this tax is levied it will teach us a lesson in economy. Personally, I thank the Chancellor of the Exchequer for meeting the members of the trade and coming to so satisfactory an arrangement.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Islington (Mr. Lough) has mentioned the Amendments which I and the hon. Member for West Ham (Mr. W. Thorne) have upon the Paper. The hon. Member who last addressed the Committee (Sir S. Collins) spoke of the advantage of this tax in checking the consumption and waste of matches, but I think he will readily see that if the consumption is checked we shall not get the revenue. We cannot have it both ways. It seems to me that any arrangement come to between the Government and the manufacturers is one which we certainly ought to consider, but I for one regret that we have not before us the Amendments which the right hon. Gentleman has read out, so that we might form some idea exactly what they mean. I hope that before the Report stage the right hon. Gentleman will really consider whether it is worth while proceeding with this tax. It is only going to produce £1,250,000, and it will certainly be rather more agreeable to the large manufacturers than to the small ones. There is certain machinery required to produce these larger boxes, and it will therefore hurt the smaller manufacturer, and also affect the consumer. The tax will particularly press upon the poorer classes of the community. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury said that these taxes were intended to affect those who were not touched by the other taxes, but he has surely forgotten that the poorer classes have suffered indirectly from the War in the very much increased cost of living, which has gone up something like 40 per cent. This again will increase the cost of living, because matches are a very important consideration to the poorer classes. The right hon. Gentleman opposite went to the root of the matter when he said that we ought to consider this question not from the point of view of whether an agreement has been come to between the Government and the manufacturers, but from the point of view of its effect upon the consumer. I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will reconsider this tax before the Report stage. It may seem rather ungracious after the generous concession he has made in withdrawing the Railway Tax to make this appeal to him, but if we believe that in the general interests of the community this tax is not a good one we are bound to make it.
I was present when the hon. Gentleman stated that we estimated the revenue from this duty at £1,250,000. I feel it my duty to get up and inform him that he was not accurate. We estimate the revenue from this duty at £2,000,000. With regard to his observations as to our agreement with the manufacturers, it is only necessary for me to say that we have entered into no agreement. We discussed with the manufacturers what was the best method of applying this tax in a way that would be least injurious to their business, and we came to a certain conclusion which we have presented to the House. We came to no agreement. We have no authority or power to enter into an agreement. We have to submit everything "we do to the authority of this House, but I regard it as our duty to do our best to inform our minds how we can raise the taxes in the easiest way. The point raised with regard to the match lighter is one which we must take into account. We shall have another and larger Bill after Easter, and we shall then propose to introduce a tax upon lighters of the kind mentioned.
Are we to understand that these Amendments which are now proposed constitute the whole of the altered terms suggested to the right hon. Gentleman by the trade?
No, I cannot say that. I cannot charge my memory with all the suggestions that were made to me by the trade, but I am quite sure that they included a number of other things not included in the proposals which I have felt justified in presenting to the House. I do not remember precisely what other proposals were made, but I am quite sure that they did make other suggestions.
I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has not just now transgressed a very sound rule which has guided Chancellors of the Exchequer in the past? I understood that it had always been the practice to refuse to give any information about future proposals with regard to taxation. The right hon. Gentleman has now indicated that at a future date he proposes to introduce a tax on lighting apparatus. I presume that between now and this duty every person who deals in this apparatus will be engaged in forestalling the tax.
They cannot do that.
In my experience I have never heard a Chancellor of the Exchequer propose a tax either bearing upon trades or upon manufactures without interviewing the traders and manufacturers and hearing a full statement of their views as to the way in which the tax would bear upon them. I venture to say that no Chancellor of the Exchequer has ever brought forward a tax and submitted it to the Committee of the House of Commons without giving a full and sympathetic hearing to those on whom the tax would bear, and to make it a charge against the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he has listened to the proposals of manufacturers or of traders, or, for that matter, that he has given a sympathetic hearing to whatever views they desired to place before him is really absurd. Anyone who has followed the proceedings of newspapers for the last year or two would pay little attention to such a paragraph in a paper as that saying that the Match Tax was settled. Do we not every day see in the papers what takes place at the Cabinet? These rumours may or may not be true, but it is perfectly clear that the Chancellor of the Exchequer could not settle the Match Tax before he had placed the proposals before the House of Commons. I have listened to twenty or thirty Budgets, and I venture to say that no tax of this kind was ever submitted to the House without precisely the same procedure being adopted.
I congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon having made a fair and equitable settlement of this Match Tax question, and upon having had so much better success in dealing with what was once a most thorny question than Mr. Lowe. The whole nation should bear a fair share of the burden of the enormous cost of this War, and in the match we have at any rate a tax which is practically universal in its application. Therefore, knowing that we must have an enormous increase of revenue, I consider that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was perfectly justified in getting this source of revenue which applies practically to the whole nation.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer was quite right in stating that the estimate of the total revenue from the tax was £2,000,000, but does he imagine that we shall get that sum from the tax now that it has been reduced by one-half?
No, there has been no reduction of the tax by one-half. The reduction affects a very small proportion of the trade, not 10 per cent. The tax is going to be levied at the rate of 3s. 4d. per 10,000 matches as regards the first eighty in the box, and then at the rate of 1s. 8d. on the rest of the matches. That is not a reduction of one half; it is an absolutely insignificant reduction in revenue.
I only rose to point out that the figure I quoted was the correct figure for the Customs Revenue.
Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 5.—(Duty on Table Waters.)
(1) There shall be charged, levied, and paid upon all table waters as defined by this Section, which are sold or kept for sale in Great Britain or Ireland, the following duties of Excise (in this Act referred to as "table-water duties"); namely:
On table waters which contain as the result of the ordinary process of manufacture, or are prepared in the ordinary process of manufacture with, sugar or other sweetening material, or which are fermented beverages, a duty at the rate of fourpence per gallon; and
On other table waters, a duty at the rate of eightpence per gallon.
(2) "Table waters," for the purposes of this Act, includes any aerated waters and any beverages sold or kept for sale in bottles, other than—
( a ) Any liquor for the retail sale of which an Excise licence is required; and
( b ) Syrups or other liquors intended to be consumed only in a diluted form.
I beg to move, "That the consideration of this Clause be postponed until after Clause 8."
I am sorry the Chancellor of the Exchequer has moved in this direction, but at the present moment I have no desire to speak either on the merits of the tax or the machinery to be adopted. I want him, if possible, to see those who are chiefly concerned in this matter and to discuss with them the difficulties which will arise in connection with the imposition of this duty. I believe they have suggestions which they would like to lay before him.
The suggestion of my hon. Friend is that the trade has not, up to the present, been sufficiently consulted with regard to the machinery for the collection of this tax. I have no doubt my right hon. Friend has seen some members of the trade, but so far as I have been able to form any opinion, those who represent by far the largest volume of the trade, and especially that kind of trade in connection with which the difficulty will chiefly arise, have not been directly consulted by him. In the trade it is believed that the collection of this tax by means of stamps will, I will not say be an impossibility, but will involve enormous inconvenience as well as enormous expense to the trade.
On the Motion for the postponement of the Clause it is not in order to go into the question of the merits of the Clause; the simple point is, whether the Clause shall or shall not be postponed until after Clause 8.
I should have heartily supported this Motion if the Committee stage was going over till to-morrow, but I understand it is not.
The hon. Member for the Bridgeton Division of Glasgow (Mr. MacCallum Scott) is in possession of the Committee.
My object was to suggest the postponement of the consideration of this Clause until the other Clauses have been dealt with, in order that my right hon. Friend should have further time to consult the trade. In view of the ruling of the Chair, that I may not even mention the difficulties of collection, and in view of the fact that I can raise them on a later Amendment, I will ask no more now than that my right hon. Friend should give an assurance, if he can, that he will consider this question of machinery in consultation with the trade in the interval between the present stage and the Report stage, and if he is convinced by such information and suggestion as may be submitted to him that his proposed machinery is impracticable, and that other machinery would be more practicable, then he will on the Report stage submit relevant Amendments.
I would strongly support this Motion if it meant that the consideration of the Clause would be carried over until to-morrow, or some other day, in order that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have a full opportunity of consulting the trade about a matter in the consideration of which very serious difficulties, indeed, are involved. There are good grounds for the delay. We have been very seriously rushed in this matter. The Bill was read a first time on Thursday last, and the second time on Monday last. We are now engaged on the Committee stage, having seen the various Amendments for the first time today. The great trade concerned has, of necessity, to discuss this matter and to try and get Amendments on the Paper, and I think it will be obvious we ought to try, at any rate, to meet these people. I understand we are going to take the Report stage to-morrow, so that the whole thing will be over in three days. You are going to interfere with a huge industry; you will certainly cause great confusion in it, and you may ruin a great part of the trade. Yet, all this is to be done in three days, without any proper opportunity for discussing the trade point of view. If this Amendment were carried, however, it would only mean that the discussion of the Clause would be postponed for an hour or more, which, of course, would not effect the purpose we have in view. I have, therefore, simply risen in order to make my protest against the way in which this matter is being rushed.
I am not anxious to support the postponement of this Clause, because I do not want in any way to stand in the path of this Bill becoming law at the earliest possible date, as the Government desire, provided, of course, that the large interests which are involved have a reasonable opportunity to present their views, which is desirable in the highest interests of the country, if justice is to be done in the levying of this tax. I gather it is not in order at the present time to enter on a general discussion of the proposal, and I will therefore simply join with my hon. Friends opposite in trying to secure for the trade an opportunity of laying before the Government matters which I regard as most important before this Mineral Water Tax is passed into law.
I can understand the attitude taken up by my hon. Friend the Member for Stepney (Mr. Glyn-Jones) in regard to this matter, because he has spoken, on various occasions, very strongly in opposition to a duty of this nature. But when we come to discuss the machinery, I think I can make good my case that I have carefully done my best to appreciate the difficulties of the trade, and that I do not regard those difficulties as insuperable, while, on the other hand, I do at present regard as insuperable the difficulties of any alternative method of imposing the tax. With regard to the appeal of the hon. Member for the Bridgeton Division of Glasgow and for Walsall, I may say to any and every member of the trade who desires to present any further views on this matter I shall be only too glad to receive them at the Treasury at half-past twelve to-morrow.
I do not think the right hon. Gentlman has quite appreciated the real weight of the objections advanced. Everybody is agreed that every interest in the community should be asked to contribute its part to the great burden which the country is carrying. But if the industry to be taxed must be dislocated seriously in its methods, then it should have fair warning and a fair opportunity of submitting its case, from an administrative point of view, to the Treasury. The point upon which I am not reassured is that the trade has already had a fair opportunity of stating its case to the Treasury, or that it has had anything like a fair opportunity to get ready to meet him at 12.30 to-morrow. It is a very serious thing that the Government should come down and inside four days ask this House to give it power to levy new taxes where they had no experience to guide them and to expect the whole of the interests concerned in those new taxes to acquiesce readily and spontaneously in these fresh demands. The Treasury should consider the point of administration as well as the point of revenue.
We have, thoroughly.
That is not the view of the trade.
No, because we differ from them.
I am not yet assured, despite the observation of the right hon. Gentleman that the trade have had a fair opportunity of stating their case before the Treasury. At all events, in all legislation of a taxing character a fair opportunity should be given to the representatives of the industry concerned to suggest to the Treasury ways by which the burden can be borne equitably, without unnecessary dislocation of the methods of the trade.
Does the hon. Member (Sir J. M'Callum) wish to withdraw the Amendment?
I am quite willing to withdraw it if I understand that the trade are to have an opportunity of meeting my right hon. Friend to-morrow at 12.30.
May we understand that the right hon. Gentleman will be receiving the representatives of the National Union to-morrow at 12.30?
indicated assent.
On a point of Order. I understand that the question of machinery rises on Clause 7. Shall we be in order in discussing that to-night?
I should imagine that on the Question that the Clause stand part it would be open to hon. Members to go over the whole range of questions such as that.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The first Amendment, standing in the name of the hon. Member for Stepney (Mr. Glyn-Jones) [in Sub-section (1) to leave out the words "On table waters which contain as the result of the ordinary process of manufacture, or are prepared in the ordinary process of manufacture with, sugar or other sweetening material, or which are fermented beverages, a duty at the rate of fourpence per gallon; and on other table waters, a duty at the rate of eightpence per gallon," and to insert instead thereof the words "ten per centum of the selling price"], seems to impose a charge on a subject; therefore it is out of order. As to his next Amendment, I shall be glad to hear what he has to say upon it.
Do I understand that the Amendment which seeks to impose a charge of 10 per centum on the selling price is ruled out of order?
Yes.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the words "On other table waters, a duty at the rate of eightpence per gallon."
In the first place, I should like to state that the Chancellor of the Duchy, unintentionally I am quite sure, has not treated me fairly when he brushes my opposition aside and says that I have attacked the tax in principle.
In detail.
The right hon. Gentleman started by saying that I objected to it on principle.
No, in detail.
If I am only to be accused of trying to help the Government to get their tax in the best possible way, then I do not regard it at all as a reflection. The method of raising this tax on table waters as it stands in the Bill is by a tax on the gallon. In the Bill table waters are divided into two classes: First, those made in syrups, such as lemonade, ginger ale, and other temperance drinks of that sort which are sweet; and, secondly, those into which sugar does not enter, such as soda water, potash water, or what are called dry beverages. The Treasury in this case seek to make a difference in the amount of the tax. In the case of the sweetened article, such as lemonade, it is to be 4d. a gallon, and in the case of soda water it is to be double, 8d. a gallon. The effect of my Amendment would be to leave the tax at 4d. all round. The right hon. Gentleman may call that an attack in detail or in principle, I do not know which. None of the trade, it ought to be stated in fairness to them, have asked me to oppose the imposition of the tax at all. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not import any prejudice into our request on that account.
Hear, hear!
They have as much light to be dealt with fairly as the match manufacturers who have been met in Committee this afternoon. They are just as patriotic and just as willing to bear their share of the burden. As a matter of fact, in this case it is the public who will pay this tax. There is no question about that. The manufacturers have not come to you to say, as so often happens when this sort of duty is imposed, that they are going to bear this burden. They tell you, quite frankly, that it is to be passed on to the public, but they point out that when you are dealing with an article which owes its sale very largely indeed to its cheapness, and you are, in effect, nearly doubling its cost to the consumer, you are very likely so to reduce its consumption as to materially reduce your revenue. I believe that if the Government will make this a flat rate of 4d. their total revenue will be as much, if not more, than it would be by making it 8d. on the dry drinks. I understand that this is one of the taxes, like the others in this Bill, which is imposed in order chat the whole public may bear their share. I have no doubt that the right hon. Gentleman realises that the great bulk of these mineral waters are consumed by the vorking classes of the community. By far the larger number of the gallons which are to come within this tax will be consumed by those who take the cheaper drinks, the penny lemonade and the penny bottle of soda water. I can only suppose that the right hon. Gentleman will justify the difference on the ground that as sugar has entered into the composition of the sweetened article, therefore the consumer is paying something to the revenue already because of the Sugar Tax, but that the person who consumes the soda water, as a consumer of soda water, is paying nothing. As a matter of fact, that is quite a fallacy, because the trade will tell him that the public pay a penny in the great mass of cases for soda water or for lemonade, whichever they purchase, and that in fact he is not making the consumer of one article pay more than the other.
I hope I shall be in order—I suggest it would shorten the Debate—if I were to indicate that in my view the fact that you are taxing these waters in this particular way has led you to adopt machinery to which the trade are taking exception. I am glad to be able to quote the words of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in my aid. He said just now with regard to the tax on matches:
That is Clause 7.
I do not want to pursue it if it is out of order, but am I not in order in explaining on this Amendment that if the Government were to provide that they should impose a duty on the commodity as it is used with the mineral water, in that way they would be able to get over many of their difficulties? I am only anxious to try to save the time of the House and put certain practical points.
I do not mind not insisting on the strict rules of order if it will save the time of the Committee and if all the members of the Committee will observe the limits of the Debate, and if it is understood that the same Debate will not be raised again on Clause 7 when we come to it, but I think it would be rather difficult.
I am afraid I ought not to ask you to do that. But may I ask you, on a point of Order, whether I can raise it on the next Amendment which stands in my name?
If it took the form of the insertion after the word "waters" of the words "made with gas a duty at the rate of a shilling," that would be in order.
Then it would be much more convenient that I should raise the general point of the method of raising it on that Amendment. For the moment, then, I am confining myself to the one narrow point that whatever duty is imposed there should be no differentiation made between the sweetened articles and the ordinary soda. May I give another reason? Soda water is consumed more as a dilutant of spirits than in any other way, and there, at any rate, the consumer of the spirit that is diluted is in a stronger position than the consumer of lemonade when he says, "I have already paid some of the duty." He has paid a very much bigger duty on the spirit which the soda water dilutes, and what you have in lemonade is syrup diluted with carbonic acid gas water. I understand the right hon. Gentleman says, "We will only put a certain amount of tax on that because there has been a tax on the syrup." When you are dealing with whisky and soda you are dealing with whisky and the dilutant, which is, again, carbonic acid gas and water, and you have no more right to charge carbonic acid water used for diluting the whisky at any higher rate than carbonic acid gas water for diluting the syrup. There is no rhyme or reason in it. When I point out that the consumer, at any rate, pays one flat rate in the bottle trade—the household trade—I think I have made out a case for my Amendment that it should be a flat rate.
I am advised that if my hon. Friend succeeds in doing what he desires to do he will deprive us of 25 per cent. of our revenue. Be that as it may, if the Amendment were carried he would not achieve what he wants. It is simply a question of the forms of the House which cripple him. He does not achieve what he wants to achieve, but he exempts from duty altogether drinks which are not made with ferment. I argue against the proposal further that I think he is a little subtle when he talks about the entity of lemonade, an entity which cannot be separated into its chemical components, and whisky and soda, which are sold separately and need only be mixed at the pleasure of the man or woman who desires to consume it. But even if that were not the case, I would submit in answer to him that we have taxed sugar in the Budget of this year and we have not taxed whisky. Therefore it might be argued that whisky and soda ought to be charged more than lemonade. But apart from this argument, and apart from the loss of revenue, there seems to me this substantial reason for the differentiation: In the first place, the sugar must be taken into account. It might possibly not be unfair in all cases to the consumer, but it would be unfair in all cases to the manufacturer to charge him as much on an article which he makes out of duty-paid sugar as on an article that he makes out of other goods. He may charge the same price to the consumer. In most cases he does not, but in some cases he does; but one costs him more to manufacture than the other, and therefore we ought to allow for the differentiation. My second argument is that, although I admit it is only, a rough and ready way of doing it, I think it is the only way. You do by this means go some way towards differentiation between the poor man's drink and the rich man's, and between the children's drink and the adults'. Ginger beer, lemonade, ginger ale, and all those things are taxed lower than Perrier, Schweppe's soda water, and so forth. I admit it can be carried too far, because it is only a rough-and-ready way of doing it, but I think it is a fair plan, and at this stage to try to impose a flat rate would mean to us a very substantial loss of revenue. In answer to the hon. Member (Mr. Sherwell), the Board of Customs and Excise have represented to the Chancellor of the Exchequer the views of the mineral water trade, which we have considered with great care. They do not, like my hon. Friend (Mr. Glyn-Jones), object to the tax, but they object to our method of collection. That is all. It is exactly the same with the Amusements Tax. We prefer one method of collecting it, but certain portions of the trade would have preferred another method. I believe that when we come to the machinery we shall find that this objection is only a preliminary objection, and that our method has the advantage of being the simplest method, and the method of making more sure that we can get the tax. That is the point that we have got to consider. There is no method so certain as the method of putting on a stamp.
I have got a similar Amendment down which deals with this matter, but I do not want to move it, because I think I can deal with the same points on this Amendment. I have been interested in what the Financial Secretary to the Treasury has just said, and I think we shall have an opportunity on Clause 7 of stating some of the particular reasons why we are bound to differ from him at the present time. Therefore, I will leave that matter. I put down an Amendment which is practically the same as that of the hon. Member for Stepney (Mr. Glyn-Jones), but I have no desire or intention to attempt to alter the tax. I think there must be a source of gratification both to the Committee and the Government in the fact that when they are putting on a new and very substantial tax on an industry the whole of the manufacturers concerned openly write to the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the following words, which I understand he has received to-day in a communication:
"We recognise that our products, being in the nature of luxuries, should bear their share of war taxation."
That, at any rate, is very gratifying, and for my part I have no desire to raise any question about the rate of the tax. On the other hand, I want to support it entirely. But I want to ask one or two questions which I think I can only put on this particular Amendment. They refer to this question of the rate of 8d. per gallon. I have been told—I do not know whether it is correct—that sparklets are going to escape taxation altogether. I want to know whether this rate of 8d. per gallon on other table waters is going to be applied to sparklets, because if not it seems to me a very great injustice. Sparklets are used in a great many houses that I know personally, and I do not think that they ought to escape any more than any other form of table waters. Secondly, I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether other table waters paying duty at the rate of 8d. per gallon include the waters that are sold from the machines referred to in Clause 8? My reading of the Bill does not make it clear to me whether these automatic machines in addition to the £5 5s. tax are to pay for the soda water that is taken from them, at the rate of 8d. per gallon. If they do not, I submit that it is a very serious omission, for the simple reason that these machines have only got to turn out 154 gallons of soda water in the year to cover the £5 5s. tax, at the rate of 8d. per gallon. If they are going to escape, I think one may reasonably conclude that that would immediately bring about the installation of a very largely increased number of these machines, and that would hit very seriously the very manufacturers whom the Government obviously want to support as far as they possibly can, because they want their money. I do hope that if these points have not been considered by the right hon. Gentleman that they will not escape attention. There is only one other point, apropos of your suggestion, Mr. Maclean, that we might consider the general difficulties on this Subsection. I am quite in agreement with the hon. Member for Stepney in thinking that we can properly say all we want to say on Clause 7. But there is this difficulty that arises, that if we can substantiate the claim—which we believe we can—it materially affects the wording in this particular Sub-section, because it is going to deal with the method of collecting this 8d. per gallon. I am under the impression that it can be shown, and that in practice it would be proved, that you cannot properly levy a tax of 8d. per gallon, which is proposed in this Sub-section, in the manner the Government think they can. That is the difficulty we are in. I take it that would be easily got over if in the event of the right hon. Gentleman or the Chancellor of the Exchequer being satisfied either by our arguments to-night, or after having met the deputations of manufacturers to-morrow, they would themselves bring forward on the Report stage any Amendment to this particular Sub-section which may be required. I feel I can leave the matter there, and I have no desire to press the Amendment which stands in my name.
Having listened as a somewhat impartial judge to this Debate, one point has not commended itself to my mind, and that is that innocuous soda water should be charged twice as much duty as unhealthy stuff like lemonade or gingerade. I look upon soda water as one of the drinks which ought to be encouraged, and it is quite ridiculous and unfair to charge twice the rate of duty on soda water as on ginger beer. However powerful the Government may be to carry that through, I do hope that the House of Commons will come to its right mind and proper sense before long and abolish this invidious and unjust distinction.
It seems to me that it is generally admitted that taxes must now be put upon almost everything to meet the expenses of the country, and, therefore, I am not going to object to the proposed tax upon what is called table waters. On the other hand, I would certainly like to encourage that trade in every way, and I trust that, in view of the fact that further consideration is to be given to this matter by a deputation from the trade to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to-morrow, the Government will carefully consider all these matters, and especially the opinion of the trade, the members of which say that they do not object to the tax but only to the mode of collection. We have no right whatever to ruin the trade. In fact, it would not carry out the object of the Government to do so, because they would not get the money in that event. I trust that the Government will consult the trade and anybody else who are capable of giving their views in the matter, so that while getting the money they will do as little damage to the trade as possible. We must bear in mind that this is a trade which supplies temperance drinks, and, whether we are teetotalers or not, I hope we are all anxious to improve that trade as much as possible.
Does the hon. Member for Stepney desire to press his Amendment?
I think, in view of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman has undertaken to see a deputation tomorrow at twelve o'clock, rather than have this Amendment negatived, as undoubtedly it would be if the Government put on their Whips, and lots of hon. Members came into the House to vote who have not had the privilege of hearing the Debate, I think I had much better withdraw the Amendment, so as to give the trade a chance of conferring with the right hon. Gentleman to-morrow.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
With regard to the next Amendment which stands in my name, I understand that the form of it as it appears on the Paper would not be right, and you have been good enough to suggest words.
The Amendment I suggest would be: In Subsection (1), after the word "waters" ["On other table waters"], insert the words "made with gas." Then the Clause would run, "A duty at the rate of eight-pence per gallon or a duty of one shilling per pound on the carbonic acid gas contained therein."
I beg to propose, after the word "waters" ["On other table waters"] to insert the words "made with gas," and at the end of the paragraph to add the words "or a duty of a shilling per pound on the carbonic acid gas contained therein."
This is an Amendment which gives me an opportunity of suggesting to the Government a way which would enable them to get very much more revenue than they would get by this Bill. I hope that when the right hon. Gentleman has heard the suggestion and has carefully considered it he will come to the conclusion that he was a little too confident in indicating that he was prepared to back the methods which his advisers had suggested to him against all comers and against any suggestion which we made in this House. This is a suggestion for raising the tax upon the carbonic acid gas which is used in making the mineral waters. Aerated waters are made either with compressed carbonic acid gas, which is purchased in tubes or cylinders, or is manufactured on the premises of the aerated water manufacturer. During the last three days I have had the opportunity of discussing with practically the whole of the trade these proposals, and the proposal which I am now submitting is one which is supported, I believe, by all. It is desired that instead of, as you would have to do under Clause 7 if you started getting your tax by the gallon, waiting until the mineral water has got into millions of bottles, and then trying to raise the tax, you should deal with it at the beginning by means of the carbonic acid gas in the factory. The trade submit that Clause 7 as it stands is absolutely impracticable. They point out to the Chancellor that this is a practical matter. He cannot for a moment suggest that he is going to be cheated out of any revenue because we are quite willing for him to ascertain by a calculation what tax upon the carbonic acid gas would produce the same amount of revenue as a tax on the gallon of the finished article. Unless he adopts some method of this sort of raising revenue on the raw material he will have to follow the article right away until it reaches in many cases the consumer. If you take the case of a large factory in London making these mineral waters you find that the gas is made on the premises, or they purchase it from the carbonic acid gas makers in cylinders, and deal with the gas in the cylinder. One firm in London last year had a turnover of 110,000,000 bottles, and another firm had a turnover of 24,000,000 bottles. It is infinitely better to raise the duty on the cylinders of gas which they are going to use in the factory, and let them pass it on to the public, than that 110,000,000 labels, of the value of a farthing or a halfpenny, shall be attached to 110,000,000 bottles.
9.0 P.M.
There is another advantage in the Government raising the revenue on the carbonic acid gas. Clause 8 of the Bill is an attempt to raise revenue upon mineral waters which are not bottled, which are sold by soda fountains, and in other ways. The Chancellor is anxious to raise £2,000,000, and the trade are entitled to ask that he shall pay close attention to suggestions which are made. By means of the suggestion which I make he will be able to reach not only all the bottled stuff, but also to obtain the duty on the mineral waters containing carbonic acid gas which are not bottled at all, but are sold in a soda fountain. The most which he can get from a soda fountain is five guineas a year, and the owner of that soda fountain, once he pays that amount, can sell as much soda water as he is able to dispose of from that soda fountain. He can sell an unlimited supply for the whole year, because he does not put it in bottles. What would any business man do who is not anxious to pay revenue to the Government? Take the case of a great restaurant or great buffet. Under the Chancellor's proposal, the price of soda water goes up in some instances very considerably. The price of splits goes up. All that the hotel or buffet proprietor has to do to avoid paying the duty is to get a cylinder of carbonic acid gas under his counter with which to charge the water, and, when he has got the aerated water, he can convey it by means of a pipe along the counter, and have half a dozen taps. He can then let the customer turn the tap of this soda water straight into a bottle, and he can do this for five guineas a year. The Chancellor would be getting no revenue, and at the same time you would be interfering most grossly with the syphon mineral water trader and all the people who have to pay the revenue.
My method gets rid of all this. If you raise it on the gas you are entitled to say, "You may not make mineral waters or make carbonic acid gas from mineral waters unless you pay the licence and unless you submit to certain regulations which the Commissioners of Customs lay down." There will be comparatively few places where they make it in sufficient quantities to put in a plant for the manufacture of the gas. You could deal with it and you could control the amount of gas that is consumed. You could do it with perfect ease. Ninety per cent. of the makers of mineral waters do not themselves make the gas, but buy it in tubes. There are comparatively few makers of liquified carbonic acid gas, and all the small makers of mineral waters use cylinders of carbonic acid gas; therefore, what is easier than to tax the cylinder of gas? That would get rid of the use of stamps and enable the Chancellor to get his revenue on aerated waters which are not put in bottles. Under the Bill as it at present stands, the duty is upon aerated waters in bottles. No revenue is raised from the immense amount which would be served over the counters by means of automatic machines and soda fountains beyond the £5. Take a great race meeting or football match. If an expenditure of £10 on a machine, or on thirty or forty taps along the buffet counter through which to supply the soda water, with only a tax of £5 a year, who would not make that expenditure in view of the fact that he could supply any amount of mineral waters in this way for the one tax? It would be grossly unfair to the maker of syphons. So far as I have been able to find out, and I have lived with soda water manufacturers since Monday, it is the unanimous suggestion of the trade that the tax should be put upon the carbonic acid gas, and that the method of using stamps should be got rid of.
I am not sure that this Amendment and the particular form which it takes is very practicable, but it serves the purpose of enabling us to raise the question of the machinery for collecting this tax, and especially the question of whether stamps or some other method of collection may not be adopted. I have seen a good many members of the trade during the past day or two, and I have had some experience of that trade in the past. I think it is an important matter for the consideration of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the unanimous opinion of the trade is that the particular machinery devised for the collection of this tax is, in their view, impracticable. I do not say that it is impossible. Of course, the tax can be collected by means of stamps, but it will be collected at the cost of such great inconvenience to the trade, such a reorganisation of the trade, and such a disturbance of the normal course of business, that the cost of the machinery will form an appreciable addition to the cost of the tax. What are the special difficulties in the trade which make the collection of this tax by means of a stamp impracticable or undesirable? First of all, there is the volume of the trade. The volume of the trade in comparison with the cost of the article purveyed is enormous. That enormous volume increases and decreases in the most erratic way. You have a sudden change of weather—the trade springs up from thousands to almost millions. It is a trade which has got to be done in a hurry, or in a rush. Again, the conditions under which these table waters are bottled during this great rush leads to an enormous waste of labels at the present time, and it is impossible for the trade to contemplate such a waste of labels if they are to be stamped. In order to procure the proper fixing of the stamps there would have to be a complete reorganisation of the method of bottling, and there would be an enormous increase in the time used for fixing the labels.
On a point of Order. Is the hon. Member on Clause 5, with which we are now dealing, in order in entering upon a general discussion of Clauses 7 and 8?
I understood we were discussing on this Amendment whether the collection should be by means of stamps or the method suggested by the hon. Member.
The Amendment before the Committee suggests that the tax should be levied on the carbonic acid gas, and solely on that. That is the purport of the Amendment, and I rather think that the hon. Member at present in possession of the Committee was going somewhat beyond it.
I was under the impression that the Amendment involved an alternative to collection by means of stamps.
It is difficult, of course, but I would suggest to hon. Members that they should do their best.
Would it not be better to have the general discussion upon this Amendment, rather than to raise the whole question again on Clause 7?
If it would be more convenient to take the discussion on another Clause I will not now proceed further.
Go on with your speech.
I do not wish to be pedantic in the matter at all. I really think, however, that the Committee will find it for their own convenience and much better to keep to this Amendment, and then, if possible, to take the Debate on Clause 7.
I support this Amendment though I do not understand its exact effect upon the tax or upon the manufacturers; I merely support it from the point of view that I am convinced that some alternative method of levying this tax must be devised. It may be this method now proposed, or it may be some other method, but as an alternative I should be quite prepared to support this one in principle, and from that point of view.
I am afraid the proposal my hon. Friend has put forward as an alternative method of collecting the tax is not really practicable. I am advised that if we are to make sure of our revenue the only way of being sure is to have a stamp. Stamping is said to be impracticable, but I have here a bottle of aerated water—
I hope the right hon. Gentleman will keep that exhibit until we come to Clause 7.
The argument which my hon. Friend (Mr. Glyn-Jones) addressed to the Committee was founded, I think, entirely on the impracticability of stamping.
No.
My hon. Friend told us about 110,000,000 bottles provided by one firm alone. The hon. Gentleman explained that there would be an accumulation of extraordinary difficulties heaped upon the firm by having to put labels upon 110,000,000 bottles. I think that was his argument.
Only part of it.
Let me remind the hon. Member that the firm with the 110,000,000 bottles puts no less than three labels on this bottle which I have here.
I am sure the right hon. Gentleman does not want to misrepresent the matter, but desires to deal with it fairly. He has not personally seen the trade, and that bottle which he has exhibited has nothing to do with the 110,000,000 people who do not and could not put those labels on. The right hon. Gentleman has said that he will see these people to-morrow, and I think after he does he will not bring that bottle as an exhibit.
My right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary is going to see them. I very much regret I cannot personally see them, but it is impossible for me to do so. There is undoubtedly one grievance disclosed by my hon. Friend—namely, that we are only putting a tax of £5 on the use of aerated water machines. That will be considered and dealt with in the next Finance Bill, and we will endeavour before the next Finance Bill to have a proper scale.
Next day.
No, I do not think we could include it to-morrow. It will be in the next Finance Bill, which will only be a month or so later, and then we shall introduce a scale which will deal with that practical difficulty raised by my hon. Friend. When we come to consider his proposals to impose this tax by means of a charge on carbonic acid gas, I would ask the Committee to consider first of all that all aerated water has not got carbonic acid gas in it. How am I to deal with water of that kind—abandon the tax?
No, no!
I notice my hon. Friend has an Amendment later on on the Paper.
That is to leave out milk.
The hon. Gentleman's Amendment now before the Committee would not admit of a tax being imposed on a very large part of table waters which are not aerated at all and have no carbonic acid gas. I have no personal knowledge of the matter, but I am informed that a great deal of waters containing carbonic gas derive that gas from a process of fermentation in the waters and not from exterior application. If my hon. Friend's proposal were adopted those waters must also escape. Thus admittedly there would be two classes of waters which would escape duty under the proposals. We are advised, and I think common sense forces one to the conclusion, that really the one safe way of obtaining the duty is by the stamp process. If it were proved to us that the fixing of a stamp is really impracticable and impossible of execution, then of course we should have to find some other method, and, however imperfect, we might have then to adopt some such proposal as that which is put forward by my hon. Friend, although in my judgment it is full of difficulties and full of means of escape. So far, at any rate, we have not been satisfied that the fixing of the stamp is a real difficulty. Under those circumstances, although we are going to inquire further into the case to-morrow, I would suggest to the Committee that for present purposes we should leave the tax as it is now proposed and levy it by means of a stamp.
I desire to make an appeal to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor not to commit himself too definitely to this scheme which he proposes. After all, the Inland Revenue and Excise people are not infallible, and it is just conceivable that the leaders of this trade know their business a great deal better than the Inland Revenue and Excise authorities who are advising him. What I object to in the attitude of my right hon. Friend is this: On the other taxes he makes prefectly clear his point of view, namely, that the tax should be collected in such a manner as to cause the least possible inconvenience to those engaged in the trade concerned. It is not asking too much to ask before he commits himself, and before he closes his mind on this subject, that he should wait until he hears the views of the leaders of this trade. They are as much entitled to consideration as to the easiest way of collecting the money as the leaders of other trades to whom the right hon. Gentleman has already made substantial concessions. The truth of the matter is, and I think the Chancellor will agree with this when he considers the matter, that with regard to this particular tax the Customs and Inland Revenue authorities have taken the line that the mere sale of the stamps saves them trouble, and that it is the method that gives least trouble to the Government officials, and that therefore it is the scheme which ought to be adopted. Indeed, I do not think I am violating any confidence when I say that some of the officials have quite frankly said, "Oh, yes, you put forward a better scheme than we have got, there is no doubt about that, but our scheme saves us a great deal of trouble. We simply sell the stamps, and we get the tax before we part with the stamps, and we have the money to lodge in the bank and the thing is done with. But if we adopt any other scheme we have to wait for months before we get the money in." That is the real argument, that they want no trouble for themselves.
No, no!
I mean the least possible trouble.
May I correct my hon. Friend in the view he has taken. It is not with any desire to save labour on the part of the individual members of the staff, but I quite admit there are other ways of collecting the tax if we could multiply our staff tenfold, but we must work with a limited staff, and it is in order to save labour on a limited staff and in order to avoid an extension of the staff, which would be absolutely impossible in the present state of affairs.
I quite understand what the right hon. Gentleman says, and I do not want to make any suggestions which would involve an extravagant increase in the staff. It would be most unreasonable to put forward anything of that kind at a time like this. But I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider that the manufacturers will be compelled to engage a great deal of extra labour to carry out the Regulations with regard to this duty, and that the manufacturer cannot get such labour at the present time. The right hon. Gentleman will see that the stamping of 150,000,000 bottles in the year with this tax stamp must involve extra labour and a great deal of worry. I do not suggest for a moment that the officials who have put forward this scheme have done so with the object of saving themselves personally but with the object of saving the Department all possible trouble, and of getting the money in at the earliest possible moment. That is a very laudable ambition, but it is one which ought to be attained without inflicting undue hardship on the trade. My hon. Friend opposite has put a very strong point, namely, that to many of the firms in this trade the orders come with a great rush, especially during the summer time.
That arises on Clause 7.
I will not bother further with that, especially as I have made the points I want to make. I knew they were all out of order, but I followed the Chancellor of the Exchequer who contended that the stamp was the best way. I wanted to argue that the stamp was the worst way and the one causing the most inconvenience to the trade. I shall be quite satisfied if we can get from the Chancellor of the Exchequer an assurance that he is going to treat this trade as fairly as he has treated the other trade, and that he will keep an open mind upon this subject to-morrow as he has kept an open mind upon the other.
I wish to support the arguments used by the hon. Member opposite even though they are out of order. I am sorry the Chancellor of the Exchequer could not see his way to accept the Amendment. I believe that the method he has adopted is the most clumsy possible. I suggest to the Mover of the Amendment that if, in place of the word "or," he put the word "and," perhaps the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be willing to accept it. The principle involved in this method of collecting the tax seems to be that we levy so much duty on the ingredients used in the manufacture of the water and also collect a tax on the water itself. It is the same as if we collected a tax on the cup of tea when it is made in addition to the tax on the tea itself. I appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give every consideration to the arguments advanced by the firms engaged in the trade. The proposed method of collecting the tax undoubtedly means an increase of labour.
That comes on Clause 7.
As there is a good chance of getting the Chancellor of the Exchequer to consider this matter favourably to-morrow, I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the words "and any beverages sold or kept for sale in bottles, other than— This Amendment saves milk from the indignity of being regarded as a table water for the purposes of this Bill. The definition here given is one of the strongest arguments in support of the plea that it would be well for the Government, when they start a new taxing machine, to discuss the matter with people who know something about it. If they had done so in this case they would have been saved from putting in a Government Bill a definition of table waters which includes milk. The Chancellor of the Exchequer suggested that my Amendment was intended to exclude everything but aerated waters. It is perfectly true that it does so in form; but I think the right hon. Gentleman will admit that, seeing that the trade have not been consulted until it is too late, and have not had time to devise a definition which would be satisfactory and cover what ought to be included in the Bill, he cannot throw, while rushing the Bill in this way, upon them the onus of suggesting to him suitable words—in others words, of doing the work of a Government Department. This definition does not stop at including milk. It is quite possible that there are other beverages which the House would not be prepared to tax under the designation of table waters. I suggest that it is for the Government to make up their mind what it is they want to tax. On the Second Reading the right hon. Gentleman told us that they had tried to do it by means of a schedule—they did not even consult the trade as to that—but the schedule was so big that it would run into a volume; therefore they made a definition which included milk. They evidently did not realise that it did so, or the Government themselves, if they did not mean to tax milk, would have left it out. I am not prepared at this stage to move an Amendment to the definition. We may be able to do it after discussion with the Chancellor of the Exchequer tomorrow. The Secretary to the Treasury said that he would meet the point by making it read, "sold or kept for sale in bottles other than for immediate consumption." Apparently the Government do not fully realise that a great deal of milk is bottled not for immediate consumption at all; it is sterilised in order that it may be kept. Therefore, those words will not do. I think it is for the Government to suggest a definition which will not include such an article as milk.
I have before always listened to my hon. Friend with great respect, and I have always derived great value from his speeches, but I confess that I am utterly unable to understand the meaning of the speech which he has just made. The Government do not suggest, that any Bill they introduce is not open to criticism and may not be improved in Committee. Every draftsman of every Department makes mistakes, and we rely on the Committee to criticise our work and to help us, but not by saying, "Here is a Bill with mistakes in it; why does not the Government come down with a perfect measure?" Of course there are mistakes. There is not a Bill of any importance which is not improved by discussion in this House. I invite discussion. But I do not think my hon. Friend is right, merely because we have not excluded milk, in moving to omit a whole series of lines and thereby admittedly making nonsense of the Clause. We can effect his object if, after the words "( b ) syrups or other liquors intended to be consumed only in a diluted form," we add the words "and ( c ) milk." Instead of that, he moves an Amendment which strikes out everything except aerated waters, which, coupled with his previous Amendment, naturally led me to conclude that his object was to confine the tax exclusively to aerated waters. He asks us before to-morrow to reconsider the definition and to add to it such other exclusions as may be necessary. I hope the Committee will not follow his advice, but that they will give us the benefit of their knowledge as to what other articles besides milk should be excluded. I shall be glad to get their criticism. The Amendment in its present form is quite impossible.
This Amendment has raised another question of the definition of the mineral waters, or rather of the different waters which it is intended to tax. I would like to ask whether the right hon. Gentleman intends to include in his tax a class of still waters which are sold in bottles and used in the ordinary way because the water in the districts where this sale exists is generally not fit for use, or palatable, or desirable for ordinary drinking? There are a few waters of that kind which come to one's mind. I only want to know as a matter of knowledge whether the right hon. Gentleman intends to tax these waters which are not, in the ordinary sense, table waters?
They are included.
Are those medicinal waters which people of a curiously perverted taste occasionally drink excluded?
It would include such waters as Vichy, and others of a like kind.
Will it include distilled water?
It will depend upon the distilled water. It will not include distilled waters which are not bottled and used as table waters. A number of people use distilled water as an ordinary water, though I think it is extremely unwholesome.
I do not intend to press my Amendment to a Division because the right hon. Gentleman has indicated that the Clause will require some Amendment. I take it, before the Report stage is concluded, that this Amendment will be provided. I only wish to point to the fact that this Clause is not satisfactory as some further indication of the desirability of consulting people who can perhaps help, because, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me if I say that, though I have no doubt in regard to tea and sugar no member of the trade can teach the Customs anything—for those concerned have by the experience of years gathered all the knowledge necessary—yet when it was proposed to deal with the matters under discussion there must be something which the experts who have been dealing with the matter all these years could really teach those in authority.
We did consult them.
If they were consulted before the Bill was introduced I am extremely surprised, because everybody in the trade whom I have met or who have seen me in this connection deny it. But I am bound, of course, to take the word of the right hon. Gentleman. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed, "That the Clause Stand part of the Bill."
When the Budget was introduced I expressed the opinion that a tax on table waters was long overdue. I do not withdraw from that position, but I presumed that the tax would be levied in a way that would give some approach to equal incidence. What is the position? It is proposed to put a tax of 4d. on certain table waters and of 8d. on other table waters. Take the case of Schweppes' ginger ale. A gallon fills thirty-two small quarter-pint bottles, which are sold for 4d. Therefore the ginger ale so sold is sold for 4s. 8d. On that the Chancellor of the Exchequer levies a tax of 4d., just 6 per cent. on the price realised. On the other hand, if you take the botanic beers which are sold in stone jars holding a gallon, and whose present price is 8d., the tax imposed is precisely the same as upon the expensive ginger ale, and amounts to no less than 50 per cent. on the present selling price of those beers. That shows a gross inequality in the incidence of the tax. I would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to leave this Clause to-night, or to allow it to stand over until after he has met the trade to-morrow, when I hope that he will see his way to alter the method of levying the tax. What I would suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer is a graduated scale of taxes according to the selling price of the different table waters. That would be equitable and just. He might charge 2d. per gallon on table waters sold at a price not exceeding 1s., and 2d. additional for every further 1s., or fraction of a shilling, per gallon. That would be a fair and equitable method of levying the tax.
I am of opinion that it would be more easily arranged for than his present proposal. If the large manufacturer of table waters, or the large importer, were required to pay at the rate of 2d. in the 1s. on his gross sale for the year, that would secure the Government, I believe, a larger amount in taxation, and an amount that would be obtained with greater ease and less annoyance from those interested as manufacturers. I recognse that the expensive ginger ale that I referred to pays 4d. That is a farthing per bottle on the thirty-two small bottles that are filled with a gallon of that ginger ale. I admit that the manipulation of those thirty-two small bottles, the filling of them, in the beautiful and elegant ornamentation which the manufacturers chose to put upon them to make some people believe that they are drinking champagne instead of ginger beer, all means expense and work. In both cases the stone jars and the bottles are returnable; so the actual cost of the bottle does not enter into consideration. I venture to say that the difference between the tax upon the highest beverage of only 6 per cent. as compared with the tax of 50 per cent. on the botanic beers, which are largely consumed in the industrial districts of the country, shows an inequality which is not at all covered by any extra expense in the filling or the labeling of the thirty-two bottles. In addition to that the botanic beers are already bearing an increased cost of 2d. per gallon in respect of the sugar and other sweetening materials, including the tax on sugar in the present Budget—it was due to this that the price had to be raised from 6d. to 8d. Therefore, those particular botanic beers find that they are already bearing a far larger share of increased taxation before the application of the present table waters tax falls upon them. I trust the Chancellor of the Exchequer may see his way to adopt the more equitable method of levying this tax which I venture to suggest, or, at any rate, that he will allow the Clause to stand over until he meets the manufacturers tomorrow. In regard to the meeting of the manufacturers I am bound to say I have found the Treasury most ready to hear, at any rate, the opinions of the botanic beer manufacturers. They were readily accorded an interview at the Customs House yesterday, and were extremely pleased with the courteous manner in which they were received, and in which all their arguments were listened to. Therefore I entirely absolve the Treacury from any ground of complaint on that score, but I do trust that my right hon. Friend, whose financial proposals I have found myself almost invariably able to support with the greatest cordiality, will, at any rate, in this small tax not forget that the principle of the equal incidence of taxation is one that even in war time should be as closely as possible adhered to.
I, unlike my hon. Friend who is sitting by me, wholeheartedly support this Clause, and I hope it will be passed as it stands to-night, and that the Chancellor of the Duchy, as he has promised, will see those interested to-morrow, and amend any small points when the Bill comes up on Report. I would like to point out one mistake which my hon. Friend has fallen into. He said there were people who put a gallon into thirty-two bottles, and the duty paid was only 4d.
Eightpence.
At any rate, 8d. they will have to pay, as each bottle must have a stamp, and the smallest fraction is ¼d.
I said 8d.
I thought my hon. Friend said 4d. in the first instance. With regard to this tax, I only got up because I did not want the House to think that nobody supported this tax. It gives me a chance in this way to add a little to the revenue of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because otherwise, so far as the Excise and Customs on liquor is concerned, I have been left free many years, and now my turn has come, and therefore I support this wholeheartedly.
I shall not dream of supporting my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley, because I think the Committee generally is agreed that this is a most admirable proposal and tax, apart from the doubtful question of machinery. But, whilst I agree that the tax is most admirable in its character, it nevertheless suffers from a defect which is characteristic of practically all fiscal proposals in modern Budgets. This is obviously a war tax to meet a special emergency. I have often advocated in this Committee that all taxes, whether war taxes or not, should be so adjusted as to give the Treasury all the revenue without the consumer paying an undue price for the tax; but if there were a case where the Treasury was under an obligation to devise some machinery which should protect the consumer against an excessive increased charge, it is in connection with the war taxes. Under this proposal, one thing is perfectly clear. The manufacturer will pay a certain sum to the Treasury, but the manufacturer himself will get a much greater sum from the consumer. It is perfectly true the Chancellor of the Exchequer has fixed a rate which will work out at, say, a farthing a bottle. But a farthing is not a commercial point, and no one believes for a moment that the price of the ordinary bottle will be increased only a farthing. The result will be that the Treasury will get a certain sum, but the consumer will pay a much greater sum to the manufacturer, and it seems to me, in time of war, that the consumer should have some protection against that.
The Secretary to the Treasury accused, in somewhat menacing tones, the hon. Member for Stepney of being opposed to this tax, and my hon. Friend hastened, with every sign of trepidation, to assure him he was not opposed to this tax. I speak as one who is opposed to this tax, and, therefore, shall support the Amendment to omit this Clause. If I looked at the matter purely from the point of view of revenue, I would be in favour of the tax. I think it is a trade which can bear taxation and can produce a large revenue collected from very wide sources. But I do not look at it entirely from the point of view of revenue. I am in favour of the taxation of the licensed trade for reasons quite distinct from revenue, and it is for similar reasons that I am opposed, under present conditions, to the taxation of this article. One desires, for reasons concerned with the general social welfare of the country, to discourage and to limit and restrict the trade in alcoholic beverages, and to encourage at their expense the trade in beverages which are non-alcoholic. I am specially concerned with one possible effect of this taxation in Scotland, of which I know most. I daresay it would provoke some laughter if I suggested here that the national drink of Scotland was lemonade. Well, I know hon. Members think that whisky is the national drink of Scotland, and in the same way they probably think the national food of Scotland is haggis. [An HON. MEMBER: "Porridge!"] If we consider the beverage which is most widely drunk, the national drink could much more justly be said to be lemonade. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!" and "With whisky in it!"] It is so in a very much larger degree than in England. In England light table beer is well and firmly established as an article of domestic consumption. In Scotland it is not so. It would be regarded as a remarkable thing if a workman's wife should go out regularly to the public-house to get in a supply of beer for the supper or dinner table, and as an undesirable innovation. Table waters, lemonade and ginger beer, appear on the working-class and middle-class tables much more regularly, and much more as a staple article of consumption in Scotland than they do in England, and the consequence is that the trade in mineral waters is very much more highly developed in Scotland and very much more widespread than it is in England. The beverage is remarkably cheap. Before the War one could get a large quart bottle of lemonade for a penny, and in many a working-class household this was the beverage which regularly appeared upon the children's supper-table. As a result of the increased price of sugar and the taxation on it, as well as the increase due to the War, the price has already considerably increased, and the result of this new taxation will be that the price of that bottle, which was previously sold for 1d., will in future be sold for 3d. The result of so great a rise may be, and very probably will be, that to a considerable degree in future mineral waters will be supplanted by beer upon tables where beer did not formerly appear. That would be a most undesirable change, which would leave its effect after the War, and even after this particular form of taxation had been swept away. There was a time not very long ago when, if the Government had so desired, it could have for the period of the War completely prohibited the trade in alcoholic beverages. If the Government had thought it desirable to take that step it would have secured all the support in the country that was necessary to effectively carry it out. If that had been done there could have been no objection to the taxation proposed in this connection, indeed, it would have been an admirable way of raising the revenue. Under existing conditions the effect of this taxation must be, and can only be, to discourage the consumption of table waters, and reciprocally to encourage the consumption of alcoholic beverages, and I think there are very strong social reasons, apart from revenue, for not imposing such taxation.
10.0 P.M.
A deputation of mineral water manufacturers from the Midland counties waited upon me yesterday in reference to this tax. They think it is quite an unusual thing for the raw materials to be taxed as well as the finished article, but at the same time they do not wish to press their objection to the tax as a whole, but they rather object to the way in which it is proposed to raise the money. The gentlemen who waited upon me said, as regards sweetened mineral waters, it was proposed to impose a tax of 4d. a gallon. They said that they did not sell it by the gallon, but they sold it in small bottles, which amounted to thirty-two bottles for every gallon, and the very lowest duty they could put on each of those bottles was ¼d., which would make them have to pay 8d. instead of 4d. per gallon. That is the same sort of duty it is proposed to put upon unsweetened mineral waters, and they think that is very unfair. They were quite prepared to pay a reasonable amount of 4d. a gallon, but they did not want to pay 8d., and for that reason they suggested that a different way should be adopted of imposing the tax, and that it should be imposed on the returns of the amount of those mineral waters as sold in any given period. An inspection could, if necessary, be made by the inspectors of Excise, and the manufacturers should be made to return what their sales were and pay a duty on that. That seems to me to be very fair indeed. They also complain of the way in which it was proposed to levy this duty toy stamps on the bottles. They point out that in the hot weather there is a very great demand for these mineral waters and a great rush is made for them, and it was almost impossible to put the labels on them in so short a space of time, and even if they succeeded in fixing the labels they would not have time to get dry, and there would probably arise some inconvenience. I have no feeling whatever about this tax. In fact I was rather disposed to favour it, because I think the purveyors of alcoholic beverages had been called upon to bear more than their fair share of taxation in the past. Consequently I was very pleased to see something put upon mineral waters. This deputation very much impressed me with the fairness of their demands, and with the fact that it would make a very considerable difference to a very large number of people. They represented that there were about 3,000 firms engaged in the trade, turning over something like £30,000,000 a year, and that is not at all a negligible quantity. They also suggested that if it were necessary to ensure honesty in making these returns it would be quite possible for them all to be licensed in the same way as the purveyors of alcoholic beverages, and if they did not make honest returns, and were not perfectly fair in their dealings with the Excise officials they would be liable to lose their licence. Therefore I suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that before this Bill comes up for consideration again he might consider these points, and see if some Amendment could not be made in the direction I have suggested. It seems to me to be very unfair if the stamps are to be put on the bottles that men should be compelled to pay double the duty which ostensibly they are called upon to pay, and it is not at all a fair way of raising revenue. They do not object to this tax, and they are willing to bear their fair share of the expense of the War, and therefore I appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to favourably consider the points which I have raised.
I have no expert knowledge of this trade, but I confess that I was impressed with an interview I had with one of the large manufacturers in this trade. He pointed out that whilst, as far as he knew, all the manufacturers were prepared to accept this tax, and were prepared to see that the Exchequer got as much as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had budgeted for, practically they were all dissatisfied with the method which the Government were adopting to collect this tax. I rise simply to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer that, if we pass this Clause this evening, it shall not be allowed to prejudice in the slightest degree the discussion that will take place to-morrow, and that the Government will assure us that if they can come to an agreement with the manufacturers to-morrow, the fact of our having passed this Clause to-night shall not in any way prejudice their decision. From what I have heard, I believe it is immensely important to look at this question from the standpoint of labour, and I believe that the Government will be well advised if they can come to some agreement with the manufacturers to-morrow. I do trust that we may be assured by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the passing of this Clause this evening will not in any way affect an absolutely free discussion to-morrow.
Of course, it will be appreciated by the Committee that the passing of this Clause really decides nothing more than the rate of the tax—the 4d. and 8d. per gallon. All the machinery occurs in Clause 7.
It is not really 4d., but 8d.; the 4d. becomes 8d.
I said 4d. and 8d. My statement is quite correct.
Yes, that is the Bill.
The Bill deals with 4d. and 8d., and in no case will it be more than 8d.
No.
The statement is quite right. That is all we decide now. We are going finally to determine to-morrow how the tax shall be imposed and what the machinery shall be after my right hon. Friend has seen the manufacturers. I hope it will not be understood that I am giving anything in the nature of a promise that we will make any change. I am not in a position to make any such promise, and I should have to hear both sides of the case before I could agree to an alteration in the method, but we will preserve an open mind for to-morrow.
Supposing, for instance, an ad valorum tax was suggested and the right hon. Gentleman, after listening to the manufacturers, came to that decision, would the passing of this Clause interfere with the Government having a free hand to get the same amount of money, but by a method like that I suggest?
Surely we should be absolutely free if we came to the conclusion that there was a better method provided the ad valorum duty was within the Resolution on which this Clause was founded. We should withdraw this Clause and bring in a new Clause on the Report stage. There is no difficulty about it. We did before we introduced the Clause at all consider a great variety of means of imposing this tax and we came to the conclusion, with such expert advice as we thought proper to consult, that taking everything into account the method we have adopted was the best method. We will, however, go more fully into that subject to-morrow. I am confronted by my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley (Sir J. Walton) who objects to the Clause on one ground, and by my hon. Friend opposite (Sir F. Lowe) who objects to it on quite other grounds, and yet I hear them cheering each other. My right hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley objects to the Clause because, when the table waters are sold in small bottles the percentage of the tax is very small on the value of the bottle, and he suggests as a remedy that we should charge the tax on the gallon.
No. I suggest that you should charge 2d. in the 1s. on the realised price of all waters.
That is to say, we are not really to impose the tax on the price of the table water, but we are to impose it upon the amount which is paid for all the labour in bottling, corking, handling, carrying, distributing, and selling it, all of which items go to make up the final price of 4d., at which the small bottle is sold. We do not propose to tax all those items; we only want to levy the tax in respect of the table water itself, and that is why we have imposed the tax on this scale. It is quite true that in the case of the small bottle of sweetened table water we depart from our own principle. If we were thoroughly consistent we should levy on the small bottle of sweetened water one-eight of a 1d. We cannot do that. It does not exist. I admit that in all the circumstances of the case you cannot have complete logic and exactness, but we have got as near exactness as we can. We have made a distinction between sweetened and unsweetened, because the sweetened already pays a tax on the sugar. We have endeavoured to confine the tax to the aerated or table water itself, and not to tax the labour involved in bringing the bottle to the consumer. The point put by the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Sherwell) is a very true point. I am not sure that in every case the effect will be that the price to the consumer will be raised beyond the amount of the tax. In competition I should say what will happen will be that, whereas in some cases the consumer will pay more than the tax, in others the manufacturer himself will pay. It will be a question for the manufacturers whether they themselves will bear the tax, in order not to lose trade, or whether they will endeavour to get a higher price on account of the tax. I should say that in the long run it will work out that the consumer will pay the tax, and no more.
My first objection to this Clause, as it stands, is that it raises the revenue in the wrong way. It does not raise it by means of the raw material, namely, the carbonic acid gas used in making the water. Secondly, it differentiates and charges 4d. on one kind of article and 8d. on another. Hon. Members talk as if it were 4d. on lemonade and 8d. on soda water, but that is not what the Bill says. There is no definition of lemonade or of sweetened stuff. The right hon. Gentleman's idea is to get an increased revenue on soda or aerated waters which are used for the purpose of diluting spirits as a beverage, but does he see that in order to bring them down to 4d. all that is necessary is that they should contain sugar or other sweetening material. There is no standard at all of the amount of sweetening material you may use, and I can assure my right hon. Friend that there are many people in the trade who will find a way of producing aerated waters, most admirable for the purpose of diluting whisky, which will come within his 4d., because they will be able to say that it is sweetened. There is no test of lemonade in the Bill, and I can assure him that he will find makers will have no difficulty, if they choose, in introducing an aerated water which will meet the definition to which the tax of 4d. applies, and it will work most unfairly. The Bill only taxes a beverage when it is in a bottle. Under the Bill as it stands a confectioner, if he sells a bottle of lemonade will have to pay the duty, but if he sells a glass of lemonade, served in a glass over the counter, he will pay no duty at all, because this Clause confines it to things within closed vessels. I understand that there is going to be another Bill introduced shortly after Easter, and I suggest this to the right hon. Gentleman in all seriousness. This is one of the taxes that has come to stay. There is no doubt about it. If, as I believe, it is a tax which has come to stay, is it not better the right hon. Gentleman should delay starting it on a basis which we say is clearly unsatisfactory for a few weeks? He tells us he is going to introduce a Finance Bill shortly after Easter, and I do suggest that in view of the difficulties which have been pointed out, it would be much better not to proceed with this particular tax until he brings that Bill in. That will give him time and full opportunity to discuss the whole matter in all its bearings. Although the Financial Secretary to the Treasury has been good enough to say he will meet a deputation to-morrow, does this Committee really seriously think that between that meeting and the afternoon it is possible to frame provisions for an Act of Parliament which can be satisfactory? It is very unfortunate that we are to have the Report stage to-morrow, and I urge the right hon. Gentleman to consider whether it is not worth his while rather than starting this tax—which is to be a permanent tax—on a wrong basis, to give a few more weeks to the consideration of it.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer has spoken of it as an impossibility to impose a small tax of one-eighth of a penny on single bottles. I do not see any difficulty at all. It is not as if the manufacturer had only one bottle to deal with, he will be buying the stamps in bulk, and it would not be difficult to purchase twelve for 1½d. and to put one on each of a dozen bottles. I have an Amendment on the same subject on the question of cider. It is important to my mind to try to assimilate the real amount of the duties paid on bottles to the amount stated in the Bill, and I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to say whether it is not possible for him to accept some such Amendment as that which stands in my name which would enable labels to be put on really approximating to the duty of 4d. or 8d. per gallon. Are we to understand that it is proposed to take Clause 7 to-night?
Yes.
Then that will involve the whole question, and it will have to be decided one way or the other.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer has suggested that the charges for these drinks would not be materially increased. But there is a trade in London in which more than one firm is interested, which caters very largely for the working classes in 1d. bottles of ginger beer. Millions of bottles are sold in London and other large cities, and if this tax is imposed we cannot get away from the fact that the cost of the beverage will be increased by at least 50 per cent. It will not be possible to charge 1¼d. per bottle; the charge will be 1½d. That means that sobriety will be discouraged among the vast majority of the working classes. We all know that this trade exists, and I can assure the Chancellor of the Exchequer that this is a very serious matter indeed. He will not encourage sobriety by his action. An hon. Member said just now that the licensing trade had been hardly hit. I believe they made £5,000,000 extra in the last year, notwithstanding all the pressure that has been put upon them. The ginger beer trade, the trade that caters for sober people, will not make a profit, and I am afraid, if something is not done to meet this particular point, this branch of the trade will be ruined altogether.
It would be for the convenience of the Committee if the Chancellor of the Exchequer would give an answer to the question, of my hon. and gallant Friend (Captain Clive) in regard to Clause 7, namely, whether he is going to tackle the question of machinery to-night before he meets the deputation to-morrow?
If I do not take the Committee stage of Clause 7 to-night, I am afraid I could not put down the Report stage for to-morrow. There are two alternatives to be assumed. If we adhere to the stamp—that is, the machinery of Clause 7 as it stands in the Bill as drafted—it may be appropriately discussed. The main lines of the machinery are right. If to-morrow we come to the conclusion that the stamp is to be banished, Clause 7 must go too.
Then the time spent upon it to-night will be wasted.
On the other hand, if we adhere to the Clause with the stamp it will not be wasted. If we do not take the Clause to-night we cannot get the Bill until a day later.
If you do not adhere to it you can scarcely bring in a new method to-morrow.
It is, of course, a very simple matter. If we do not adhere to it and adopt other machinery, it will be by agreement with the manufacturers. Machinery to carry out that agreement would be perfectly obvious and easy of settlement. There would be no difficulty about Clause 7. Once the principle of the tax is accepted, whether it be by stamp or otherwise, the machinery, of course, then becomes automatic.
This is not a question of principle; it is a question of machinery. As the hon. Gentleman has already said that he has an open mind on the subject, it seems rather a farce to pass a Clause which defines a certain method of machinery, when to-morrow he is going to meet members of this trade to discuss whether that is the right method or not. It is rather wasting our time.
I quite see the force of what the hon. Gentleman says, but it does not cover the whole difficulty of the case. If we do not take the Committee stage of Clause 7 this evening, we cannot take the Report stage of the Bill to-morrow.
You can bring up a manuscript Amendment.
You can bring in a new Clause to-morrow.
I could move a new Clause to-morrow. Whether Clause 7 remains in its present form or whether it is entirely altered depends upon whether we adhere to the stamp or adopt some other method of machinery. If we adopt some other method, it is quite clear Clause 7 will go. But the new Clause 7 will be quite capable and quite certain. It will be the result of an arrangement with the manufacturers as to the method of imposing the tax. There will be no difficulty about Clause 7. Anybody who objected to the present Clause 7 would not have the slightest objection to the new Clause 7. My difficulty is that if I do not get a Clause 7 to-night I cannot get the Report stage to-morrow.
If you moved to recommit the Bill to-morrow you could get it.
Certainly the Bill could be recommitted to-morrow in respect of a new Clause 7. Perhaps I might ask you, Mr. Whitley, whether I should be in order to bring up a new Clause to-morrow?
The right hon. Gentleman would be in the same difficulty; he would still lose a day, because we could not take a new Clause on the Report stage unless it is put upon the Notice Paper.
May I suggest to the Committee that we have already decided to raise a certain tax upon mineral waters. Surely if Clause 7 is withdrawn to-night that would not prevent the House dealing with the method by which the tax should be raised. It is only a question of how it is going to be raised, and I cannot see for a moment what the difficulty is in withdrawing the Clause now.
Supposing my right hon. Friend passes this Clause to-night and collects this revenue by means of stamp, and to-morrow he finds that that is not the most proper or convenient method of collecting it, would it then be really treating the House quite fairly to propose an entirely new scheme?
That is not a point of Order. There is a slight misapprehension, I think, which I can put straight. A new Clause on the Report stage of a Bill must be on the Notice Paper. Therefore, as I understand the proposal, if the result of this conference to-morrow involved the withdrawal of the present Clause 7 and the substitution of a new Clause 7, it would be incumbent on the Government to take the further stages of the Bill on a later day.
We are not discussing Clause 7 at the moment. We are discussing Clause 5 I understand. Of course, the two Clauses are rather mixed up. What we wanted was an assurance from the right hon. Gentleman as to what action he was going to take on Clause 7 before we decided whether we were to vote for the postponement of Clause 5. The right hon. Gentleman said he had an open mind. If he would close it and make up his mind to make some concession to meet the views of the mineral water manufacturers on Report, the difficulty would be overcome.
I should not like the hon. Gentleman to be under any misapprehension on the point. I cannot say more than that I will have an open mind to-morrow after listening to what the mineral water manufacturers have to say. I can give nothing in the nature of an assurance that we can change the tax. However, I am quite satisfied with what has fallen from you, Sir, and the right hon. Gentleman opposite, that it would not be fair to ask the House to take Clause 7 to-night. Clearly the Debate might be entirely wasted. Therefore we will not attempt to take the Report stage to-morrow. I will ask the Committee only to go down to the end of Clause 6 to-night, and we will start on Clause 7 to-morrow.
Question put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 6.—(Duty on Cider.)
There shall be charged, levied and paid on all cider or perry which is sold or kept for sale in Great Britain or Ireland a duty of Excise (in this Act referred to as "cider duty") at the rate of fourpence per gallon.
I beg to move, after the word "sale", ["sold or kept for sale"], to insert the words, "by retail."
I do not intend in any way to oppose a tax being placed upon cider. In 1909 I took a very strong line indeed in opposing the taxation of cider, but things have changed since then. I do not feel that it is in the least inconsistent on my part to say that to-day; in time of war the revenue is so necessary that I do not attempt to put forward the views I have expressed before. My desire, as I mentioned on the Second Reading, is to help the Government to get this Cider Tax in such a shape that they may get a maximum of revenue from the duty, with a minimum of friction, and without the cost of collection being run up to a figure which would eat up a great deal of the yield derived. There is, I think, no difficulty in putting a tax upon cider sold by retail. I believe that the plan suggested of putting a stamp on each bottle, or on each cash on draught for retail sale, would, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer told me to-day at Question Time, mean that the tax would be collected at an expense almost negligible. The trouble in collection begins if the words of the Bill are followed out and it is attempted to impose the fixing of these stamps and the collection of the tax by that method upon the cider in bulk at the farm or the homesteads where it is manufactured. I know the cider districts very thoroughly. I live in a cider district. I make considerable quantities of cider myself, and I know what the conditions are, and I can assure the right hon. Gentleman and the Committee that it is really impracticable to carry out the proposals in the Bill, as amplified by the answers given to me in the last day or two by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. To attempt to proceed on those lines would mean that the whole of the £100,000 of revenue which this Cider and Perry Tax is estimated to produce, would be expended in the expenses of collection. The conditions of cider making are peculiar. It is not like brewing; it is not like having a mineral water factory. In three or four counties, and in portions of several other counties, most of the farmers have their own cider presses, and make their cider on the premises. There are thousands of cider makers. If the right hon. Gentleman could spare the time to come down to my farm I could show him from a little eminence an area which contains several thousands of farms and small holdings and cottages where cider is made. The proposal of the Bill is that the tax should be collected on all cider which is sold or kept for sale.
In bottle.
The hon. Member is wrong. If he will refer to the Bill, he will find that it states quite definitely that this tax is to be levied upon all cider which is sold or kept for sale. I would not have gone into that point if the hon. Member had not thrown doubt upon it. I put a question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon it, and I got an answer which made it quite clear that it is the intention of the Treasury to impose the tax upon cider in bulk on the farms. It is intended to impose the tax upon the wholesale sales of cider upon the farms, or, as the Bill says, upon cider sold or kept for sale. What does that mean? Cider is made in the autumn, and you go to a farmer, perhaps, at Christmas or in the spring and you say, "Have you any cider for sale?" He says, "I do not know. I will tell you in a few months." He does not know whether he has got any cider on the farm for sale or not. It depends upon how much he and his family and his workmen consume during the remaining months. It is only at a comparatively late period in the year that most of the farmers know whether they will have a hogshead or two of cider for sale. For anything they know, they may have to buy cider later on to supply their deficiency, instead of having a surplus.
If the Excise man goes to the farm during these months and asks, "What cider have you got that is liable to duty?" The farmer will say, quite truthfully, "I don't know. I don't think I have got any." Afterwards he may change his mind, and by economising find that he has a cask or two to sell. But meantime he has been liable for duty. The next step, when the farmer decides he has some cider to sell, apparently, though it is not so stated in the Bill, is that he has to purchase a tax ticket and put it on the cask of cider which he has to sell. That cider becomes at once duty paid. That being the case, the Chancellor has informed me in answer to a question, the dealer who purchases it is not required to pay duty over again. How is the dealer going to deal with that cider? Assume that he is going to bottle it. How are those bottles when they are retailed to show the stamp. If they do not bear a stamp the publican will be liable to a penalty. The only way of getting over that is that the dealer who buys the duty paid cask of cider and wishes to retail it in bottle must go to the Excise authorities and ask them for a supply of labels equivalent in value to the value of the stamp on the cask That would be possible, but very cumbrous, but if you take that as the only solution there is another difficulty. When the dealer goes to the Excise authority and asks for these labels the Excise authority will not take the word of the dealer, and the stamps which are asked for are equivalent in value to the stamp on the cask. That would not be business. Some Excise officer would have to go to the farm and see the cask and make sure that the right stamp was on the bottles. It would mean that not only in the cider districts, but all over England there would be Excise officers going about to inspect these barrels and see that they had the proper stamp on them, and then to exchange that stamp for a number of stamps amounting to an equivalent value.
By the time that all this has been done, I think that the right hon. Gentleman will find that a very big hole has been made in his £100,000, and all that could be avoided if the right hon. Gentleman would only agree to what I am convinced, from my knowledge and experience of this matter, is the only practicable method—that is to ignore the wholesale trader in cider and to affix the label solely to the bottles or the smaller casks in which the cider is retailed. In other words, to carry out the suggestion contained in my Amendment, which is that this tax on cider should only apply to the retail sale. I do not say that there might not be a little hole in the net through which some people would escape, but my point is that in trying to stop up that hole the expense would swallow up the whole yield of the tax. The net yield of revenue will be far greater if the Government will fall in with this suggestion and will rivet the tax upon the retail trade, and will not attempt to convert every farm in the country and every small holding where cider is made into a sort of semi-bonded store from which the cider can only be sold on the payment of the tax. That would cause irritation; it would lead to a large increase of the number of men who are required to superintend the Excise operations; and if there is one thing which the right hon. Gentleman told us more often than another, it is that at the present moment their staff is insufficient and they cannot add to it. If you attempt for one moment to impose the tax upon sale of cider in bulk and wholesale on the cider farms, either you are going to be so lax in the administration of your law that it will be extremely easy and most inviting, in fact, to ignore the law, or, if you are going to enforce the law properly, you are going to entail an expenditure in the energy and time of men and money for their payment which will possibly not only absorb the whole yield of the tax but very likely cost more money than the tax will yield.
I wish to assure the hon. Gentleman that we have by a real stroke of good fortune, the help of experts who, like the hon. Member himself, know all the mysteries of growing cider. Those mysteries and difficulties which the hon. Member has laid before the House have been carefully considered and will be met by regulations.
Are the experts the right hon. Gentleman has consulted manufacturers of cider in the ordinary sense, or are they farmers?
The gentleman I have in my mind owns cider lands; he has a farm, and he has himself, I think, bottled or casked this delectable beverage.
He is not a farmer, I understand.
I think he does farm. He talks very learnedly and with great knowledge on the subject, and I should be glad to-morrow morning to introduce the hon. Gentleman to him, so that they might together talk over this matter which they have so much at heart. I assure the hon. Member that we do not want to invade the farmer's home to look where his cider is and to tax it. It is not intended, and it would be expensive, as the hon. Member has pointed out, to collect the money. We certainly would not do anything so foolish as to turn farms into bonded warehouses. We think we can meet the case with regulations. If the hon. Gentleman will look at an Amendment down in the name of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to Clause 7, he will see that he proposes after the word "cider," to insert the words "or the sale of any table waters or cider to dealers."—[Sub-section (2).—"The Commissioners may make regulations."]—That is to say that if the farmer sells his cider to a dealer we shall collect the tax from the dealer and not from the farmer. That seems to be the right way of reassuring the hon. Member, because if you exempt the wholesale trade you not only exempt the trade in casks, but you also exempt the wholesale trade in bottles.
I do not mean that.
I know you do not, and that is why I prefer my Amendment to that of the hon. Gentleman. I do not want to exempt the dealer in cider, or the large manufacturer of cider who may deal wholesale in bottles or casks, but I do want to exempt the farmer who, having surplus cider over at the end of the year, sells to a dealer. That sale will not be charged or taxable. The dealer will pay the duty. There will be no charge to the farmer on cider made for home consumption, and there will be no charge on cider sold to a dealer. Under those two provisions, I think the farmer is quite exempt from payment of tax.
I had read the proposed Amendment of the Chancellor, but there is nothing in that Amendment to bear the construction which the right hon. Gentleman has explained to us as his intention.
Why not?
Your Amendment gives the power to the Commissioners that they may make Regulations—not even that they shall—for various things, including facilities for the bottling and rebottling of any table waters or cider, and goes on to say, "or the sale of any table waters or cider to dealers." That has nothing to do with the sale of cider, we will say, by a farmer to a publican, because there is nothing in it to say that the publican in that sense is a dealer. It is very permissive and very vague. The Commissioners might take the view indicated by the right hon. Gentleman, but there is nothing in the Bill to say that they are going to do so, or that they are compelled to take that view. According to the very Clause to which the right hon. Gentleman referred a few lines further on it is evidently intended that the Commissioners are to have the power, not only to go into every farm, but absolutely to require every one of those farms to be registered or licensed. Thais Clause does not on the face of it bear out the very excellent intentions which the right hon. Gentleman has expressed.
One recognises gladly the intention, and I am sure the good will, of the right hon. Gentleman to meet the general grievance in this matter. As representing a constituency where there is a considerable amount of orchard land and a large amount of cider made, I desire to put this point. It is often the case that an artisan goes with his own cask or two casks to the farmer when he is making cider and takes the cider away from the mouth of the press. For that cider he pays a very low price. I have known it to be sold at 2d. per gallon, or 10s. a hogshead. In framing the Regulations, will the Commissioners take into account that aspect of the sale of cider? If not, if cider sold at the mouth of the press for 2d. per gallon has a tax of 4d. per gallon imposed, that will be something enormous. I do not wish the cider to evade the tax, but I do want these men who buy the cider in their own casks and take it to their own home to be protected from this tax of 4d. per gallon. There is another point which I am certain the right hon. Gentleman will meet in a conciliatory fashion. It is the custom—I do not think it is a good custom, but there it is—in cider counties for a man to receive a small keg, say three pints, of cider per day. I think it would be far better if he had it in wages. I presume that a farmer supplying his agricultural labourers with three pints of cider per day would not be liable to the 4d. per gallon tax?
No.
Thank you.
The right hon. Gentleman told us just now that where a farmer sold cider to a dealer the dealer would pay the tax. If a farmer sold a hogshead of cider to another farmer for his own use, would that be taxable or not? Would the purchasing farmer be considered a dealer?
I am happy to believe that the points of objection which have been brought to my notice in connection with this tax have either been met or are intended to be met, by what has been already put down, or that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is willing to meet them. Most of the points were put very forcibly by the hon. Member opposite, but I will add one or two with a view to emphasising the necessity of a modification in the direction he has suggested, namely, that the tax should be substantially leviable only on that which is sold retail, that is to say, on what is sold otherwise than for re-sale. I do not want to go again into the question of the farmers. It must strike anyone that where cider is given as a substitute for wages, or where one farmer gives it to another, there is a possible loophole. But I will not say anything about that. If it were serious it might be met by a small license duty. The point I want to put is that farmers in many places sell to small manufacturers. They do not sell it to consumers, but to the people who make it up, and in many, many cases either the manufacturer dilutes it—I do not mean adulterates it—or sells it to the publican or others who dilute it and make it into a lighter beverage and one of greater bulk. The Exchequer would therefore stand to gain if the duty was imposed solely upon that which is sold by retail. I only wanted the Financial Secretary to bear in mind that the small manufacturer receiving the cider soon after it is made does not get paid for it, at all events, till long afterwards. If he is to be taxed either at the time of production or at the time when he buys it in bulk for the purpose of re-sale a very heavy, a crushing burden will be thrown upon the small maker—the man, I mean, who makes or acquires about 100,000 gallons in October for the purpose of his large business. He would have to pay at once something like £1,500, and this he would not get repaid till quite late in the year. Unless this plea of charging the duty on the particular retail sale is adopted, I would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give the small manufacturers relief by providing that in some way or other the duty shall not be payable until there is such a sale, or sales, as to put him in funds again after he has paid the duty.
I do not know whether the question of cider in stock has been considered. There again, of course, it would not be a very serious thing for some if you were now to pay the duty on the cider that exists instead of making it payable solely at the time you want to sell it in retail. It comes under the same heading. On the other hand, may I point out the fact that cider is sold in casks that may have paid duty, and then the cider, having been bottled, you have to deal with the bottles. That might be met by some system of allowing an exchange of cask labels for a corresponding number of bottle labels. All these things I give the Treasury credit for ingenuity to meet. But I put the point where a real grievance exists—where the small manufacturer has to buy from the farmer and pay the duty with no hope of re-sale or recouping himself for some considerable time. If these points are met the trade, I think, would very willingly bear the burden.
I have listened very carefully to the appeal of the manufacturers of cider, but I cannot see what case they have got that the manufacturers of other beverages which come within this Bill will not have. I refer particularly to brewed ginger beer, and to brewed herb beer. Practically all the points that are raised by the cider manufacturer could be raised by the manufacturer in the country. I know perfectly well in the country where the farmers make, not cider, but a form of what they call small beer, or herb beer, that is not excisable. That beverage would come within this Bill, and be liable to duty. I am not at all sure that we are not inclined to be too tender to the farmer in this case. If it is decided that a certain beverage is a beverage and ought to produce a duty, and in order to get that you ought to license the maker—
I think the hon. Gentleman is attributing to me arguments that I never used. He suggests that I have a feeling and tenderness for the farmer. I have been pleading out of tenderness for the Exchequer.
11.0 P.M.
Quite, but it is a very curious thing that whilst it is going to cost the Exchequer apparently more to get this duty upon cider, that argument is not used when they have to raise a duty under the same Bill on brewed ginger beer. I can only say I know farms where, instead of making cider, they make considerable quantities of herb beer and ginger beer.
Is the hon. Member in order in discussing this on an Amendment to a Clause which only deals with cider?
I think within reasonable limits the hon. Member is entitled to argue by analogy.
All I am going to point out to the Government is this: I say they are ready to give a concession to the manufacturer of cider which will enable the tax to be raised only when the goods are retailed.
My hon. Friend completely misunderstands me. I have resisted the Amendment proposed by my hon. Friend opposite, and I have suggested that he should be satisfied with our proposal which applies equally to table waters and to cider.
Then am I to take it that the Amendment to which the right hon. Gentleman now refers will make it compulsory upon the Commissioners to exempt table waters and cider when sold to dealers, because, if so, my case is met? As I understand the provision to which he has referred, it is simply an enabling provision which gives the Commissioners power to exempt from duty sales to dealers. If I understand from the right hon. Gentleman that that is a duty as well as a power then my point is gone. All I am pointing out to the Government is that they cannot give a concession to a cider manufacturer, whether a farm or whatever else, which they do not also give to the manufacturer of herb beer and ginger beer under the Bill.
As you said, Mr. Whitley, my hon. Friend argued from an analogy, but the manufacturer of herb beer or aerated water and the manufacturer of cider do not afford quite an analogy. I would like my hon. Friend to come down with me to Devonshire for a short time, and I would show him round some orchards where an enormous amount of money has been spent, and the Board of Agriculture to-day are encouraging farmers to do all they possibly can to improve their orchards and free the trees from lichens and other pests, and there is a distinct capital invested in these orchards. To tax a beverage which is sold at 2d. a gallon and put a duty of 4d. a gallon extra on it affords no analogy in the argument of my hon. Friend opposite. I should like my right hon. Friend to give me an answer to the question I put. I am sure he will sympathetically consider it, but I do press the point that you are putting a duty of 4d. a gallon upon a beverage which is sold at only 2d. a gallon.
Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what is cider, and what strength it must be before you tax it? The hon. Member opposite has referred to cider diluted by adding water, and I want to know what is the strength which you propose to tax. It may not seem important for the moment, but some time ago—
Is the point raised by the hon. Member in order upon an Amendment to insert the words "by retail"?
I think it would be best to raise that point on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move to leave out the word "fourpence," and to insert instead thereof the word "twopence."
We now come to a question of great importance in connection with this Clause, namely, at what rate shall we tax this cider? I think I shall be able to show that 2d. per gallon is sufficiently heavy under the circumstances. Although the Chancellor of the Duchy has been pluming himself upon his knowledge of cider, I maintain that he has still a great deal to learn about it, and there are hon. Members here who will be able to give him some instruction. The right hon. Gentleman admitted that he had taken no advice from the Board of Agriculture, who could have given him a great deal of useful information on this subject, and no advice was sought before this Bill was drafted from the National Cider Institute. That institute is a faculty of the University of Bristol, and it is supported not only by that university but by the County Councils of Hereford, Gloucester, Somerset, and Devon. It also receives a considerable sum by way of Grant from the Board of Agriculture, and it treats the growing of cider apples, cider production, the distribution of cider, and all the questions connected with it in a thoroughly scientific spirit. Therefore, the whole of the conditions of the trade might have been found out if an application had been made to that institute. One thing you have to realise about cider is that a great deal of it is produced and sold on the farms at what might be called an almost ridiculously low price. I do not think in Somersetshire it is often sold so low as 2d. per gallon, but a great deal of Somersetshire cider, which is vastly superior to that of Devonshire, is sold at 8d. per gallon and the carriage is paid from the farm on which it is produced to anybody who will buy it, and I believe that hon. Members in London before the War would have been able to order a cask of cider to be delivered at 8d. a gallon. I think that is enough to show that the price of cider bought in the bulk is very low. A great deal of cider is produced on the farms to be sold at a very low rate in the locality for consumption either in the small class of public-house where a great deal is sold, or on other farms, or in businesses. To put a tax of 4d. per gallon on that class of cider is really crushing. I know it may be said that 4d. per gallon on cider is not too much compared with 8d. per gallon on soda water, but really the conditions are not comparable. You have certain facts about cider. It is a home-produced beverage, which is largely consumed by the poorest class of workers. Soda water is the drink of the wealthy; cider is pre-eminently the drink of the poor man—at any rate, cider which is sold on draught. I admit at once that the cider in bottle which we get in the dining-room of the House of Commons may well be taxed 4d. per gallon. I am quite willing to pay that tax myself, and I am quite sure if some hon. Members of this House who are very particular about what they do not drink would really regard it as a temperance drink and would drink it plentifully, they would be a great deal the better for it. I want the right hon. Gentleman to face this question seriously, Whether, under certain of the conditions in which cider is produced and sold, 2d. per gallon is not quite enough? I believe the 4d. per gallon will result in a very great reduction in the amount produced or in the amount sold. I am told that in many places—I am not speaking of Somerset, but of inferior districts—apples will be given to catle or will be left on the ground rather than be pressed into cider. There will be nothing like the same amount of cider produced, and instead of £100,000 which you expect to get from this tax you will get a great deal less, and you will do a great injury and hurt to the cider industry, which the Board of Agriculture have spent hundreds of thousands of pounds recently in trying to develop and increase. I have got here a letter from a well-known cider man in my Constituency whose expert advice I have taken. I will give it to the right hon. Gentleman. This is what he says:
The hon. Member has done a great service to the Committee by giving his opinion on the merits of cider. I will only make one humble request. He has a great and, if I may say so, a growing reputation in this House, and I would urge him, in all sincerity, not to conduct himself in public as though cider is a temperance drink. I am seriously afraid of accidents. He must be well aware that it is not a temperance drink. When we are deciding what is to be the tax we have to consider it in relation to those other fluids to which it approximates in nature. We have a harmless beverage made theoretically out of water, sugar and ginger, called ginger beer, and you cannot tax cider at half the rate you tax ginger beer. This is not an ad valorem duty. The tax must have some relation to the other taxes, and we have suggested that cider should be taxed equally with ginger beer, as if it were equally excellent and harmless, and less dangerous than beer, although it very often has the same results as beer. While I share my hon. Friend's adoration for cider, I suggest he ought not to be too tender-hearted when he takes a wide survey of all the beverages in the field.
I do not know why my right hon. Friend attacked my hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset for suggesting that cider is a temperance drink. I did not hear him say so.
I thought he did.
No. I suggested to the hon. Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Leif Jones) that he should act as if it were.
I understood the hon. Member to recommend it to me, and I am sure he would not recommend anything but a temperance drink.
I do not know why the right hon. Gentleman thought it important to say it is an alcoholic drink. If it is, why was it not taxed long ago? I know there are difficulties. The right hon. Gentleman the Minister for Munitions found them when he attempted to tax it. Surely it is not because it is an alcoholic drink that the right hon. Gentleman suggests it should be taxed now; it is solely for fear of an outcry on the part of soda water manufacturers and makers of ginger beer and lemonade that he does so. That is a cry they have not yet raised. This tax is proposed in anticipation of that cry. If it is raised I suggest it is not a reasonable one. The tax on soda water is a popular one, and is likely to bring in a very large revenue; therefore, it is a sound one at the present time. Cider is in quite a different category. Before you can make cider you have to plant a tree, and have to wait something like fifteen years before anything like a crop falls into your lap. That involves a large outlay of capital, which cannot be recalled and which is invested in cider fruit that cannot be used for any other purpose. It is an industry which has been greatly encouraged by the Board of Agriculture, the National Cider Institute, and the county councils which have supported that institute. All that money is threatened with being so much money wasted owing to this tax. There are many small people, small holders in Herefordshire, Somerset, Devonshire, and all the cider-producing counties, who depend largely upon cider fruit for paying rent or making their profits. I have a letter here from one of them, who says:—
"The big cider merchants with capital will be able to monopolise the trade, as they will be able to buy up the fruit at their own price, consequently we fruit growers will be the sufferers, and we shall have to sell the fruit cheaply."
That is a point of view I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider. This particular man, in his letter, says that the extent of his holding is something under four acres. There are numbers of these small people who make a small living out of such holdings, which are covered with fruit trees. A lot of the fruit since the War has rotted on the ground. As I believe the right hon. Gentleman knows, the sales of cider have fallen off very much in consequence of the War. I understand that a memorandum has been sent to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to-day, and that eight of the leading cider merchants of the country have stated, among other things, that one and all of them have the same report to make, namely, that their sales have diminished. That accounts for what I know to be the case, that a large amount of fruit has been wasted on the ground this year. People could not sell their fruit for £1 a ton, and at £1 a ton it does not pay for picking and packing. The capital which has been invested in this industry over a long period of years will be wasted if you knock the cider trade on the head. It is not a case of rich manufacturers. It is the smallholders who will be the main sufferers. As things stand at present their holdings bring them in only a small return, and they will find them perfectly worthless if the cider trade is knocked on the head. I have never heard of 2d. a gallon before. Cider is usually sold at from 4d. to 7d. a gallon, and cannot possibly stand 4d. being added to it. A man who bought his cider for 7d. cannot afford to pay 11d. for it. It is the cheap trade that will suffer. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to seriously consider whether he cannot accept this Amendment and start the tax at 2d. That would be 50 per cent. on the price of a great deal of what he is taxing, and it is a heavy enough tax to put on a trade which has gone free of taxation for the last one hundred years, and which has not gone ahead all that time although it has not been taxed. Beer, which has been heavily taxed, has gone ahead in spite of the tax. Cider has not gone ahead. In this tax the right hon. Gentleman is breaking one of the cardinal principles of taxation. He is taxing a declining industry, which certainly is not going ahead, and which will certainly receive a very serious set-back as a result of the tax, even if it is left on at 2d., and that in spite of the large amount of money which the Board of Agriculture and other agricultural organisations have spent upon it.
I rise to oppose the Amendment. The Debate has been conducted principally by Members for Devonshire, Herefordshire, and Somerset. Gloucestershire, a division of which county I represent, also makes cider, and Gloucestershire is, as far as I know, a good deal more patriotic than either Somerset or Devonshire or Herefordshire, and the majority in Gloucestershire would be delighted at the prospect of being able to take part in what is a War tax, and being able to raise from their manufactures some small contribution towards the necessary moneys which the Chancellor of the Exchequer requires. In regard to the price of cider generally, I believe cider has always been too cheap. It is the only alcoholic drink which I take regularly. I drink it whenever I can get it, but all my efforts to make my fellow Members in this House drink it, I am sure, have failed, not because they do not like it, but because they feel there is something too democratic, too plebeian, in drinking something which costs 6d. or 4d. a half bottle instead of 10d. or 1s. 6d. I am certain if cider only had a thundering big tax on it it is quite likely to become a popular drink among the well-to-do classes. In regard to this tax of 4d. on the gallon, the hon. Member who moved the Amendment, with a much greater approach to accuracy than the right hon. Gentleman opposite, spoke of cider as being generally 8d. a gallon. It is often more than that. Cider which is made to sell at 2d. a gallon certainly is not produced in the best area of Devonshire. It may be produced in South Molton.
It is exactly the same cider as is sold in this House at 6d. a bottle. It is all a question of carriage. The cider I am talking about is fetched from the press by the men themselves. All the cost of the cider he is talking about is made up in sending it to London and bottling it.
I am sure my right hon Friend is quite wrong.
No, I am not.
If my right hon. Friend will look at the price lists of cider sent out by Bulmers', Whiteway's, Henley's and many others, he will find there is an enormous variety of ciders and an enormous variety of prices.
My hon. Friend is not talking of the same thing. I am talking of a man who goes with an hogshead to the farmer and takes the cider from the presses' mouth. There is no comparison between that and Henley's or Bulmer's or Whiteway's cider. It is the same kind of cider when it comes from the press; but my hon. Friend must excuse me if I repudiate entirely his suggestion that I do not know anything about it. What I am telling him is absolutely a fact, and what my hon. Friend is talking about is an entirely different thing.
I do not think my right hon. Friend's personal acquaintance with cider is as large as my own. I am under the impression that his regular drink is not cider. I ought to have knowledge of my hon. Friend (Mr. King). I know his drink. His regular drink is not cider. I have a good deal more actual knowledge of the different kinds of cider than my right hon. Friend, and I am quite convinced that this tax is going to seriously injure the cider trade. The hon. Member for North Somerset says that a lot of cider is made by small farmers and cottagers, and that if they sell it they will have to pay the tax. That is quite contrary to the whole notion of economics the hon. Member ever uttered on the platform. He knows perfectly well that any tax of this kind is put upon the consumer. If the seller of the cider pays the tax he will put the tax upon the cider and the purchaser will have to pay it in increased price when it gets to the public-house. Quite right, too. I cannot see why a man who goes into a public-house and drinks cider should escape taxation, while the man who drinks beer should not escape taxation. It seems to me perfectly reasonable that cider should be taxed. The hon. and gallant Member (Captain Clive) mentioned that cider had been free of taxation for one hundred years. That is no reason why it should not be taxed now. Because the trade has been free from paying what I think is its due to the State for so long is no reason for it not paying it now. It is a good reason why it should pay. A tax of 4d. per gallon in the majority of instances would not represent more than one-third of the price. Cider could be sold, at 1s., and of that 4d. would be tax. Having regard to the public-house licence and the beer licence, I do not think you can say that the beer producer has ever paid less than one-third of the cost in taxation. Is it not reasonable, therefore, that cider should pay the same? I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will hold on to this tax. It is a reasonable tax, and patriotic people will pay it. Certainly the patriotic county of Gloucester will pay it.
As I have a similar Amendment down as the one moved by the hon. Member for North Somerset, I wish to saw a few words in support of the appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to substitute 2d. for 4d. as the tax upon cider Notwithstanding the difference of opinion between the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. G. Lambert) and the hon. Member (Mr. Rendall), it is a fact that 4d. per gallon is 75 or 100 per cent. on the capital value of cider at the mouth of the press. That, I submit, is a very high charge. It is a very considerable industry in the three south-western counties, and it is a fact, I believe, that if the tax of 4d. is inflicted it will menace the successful carrying on of the industry. My hon. Friend (Mr. Rendall) knows a great deal more about cider than I do, according to what he says, but, at any rate, I think all moderate men must agree that cider is a very refreshing and appetising liquor. It is a liquor largely drunk by the poorer classes, and it would be a pity for such a beverage not to be within reasonable reach of those who generally consume it. From the temperance point of view, everyone agrees that there is very little alcohol in cider.—[AN HON. MEMBER: "How much?"]—Four per cent. There is 10 per cent. in beer, and I am told that there is 2½ per cent. in ginger beer. Therefore, there is very little difference between the alcohol in ginger beer and cider. This is a home industry, and if the people did not drink cider they would probably drink beer. Beer is largely an imported article. It is desirable that the liquor that can be generally used should be of home production rather than practically an imported one. The apple industry in this country is an important one, and the Board of Agriculture have wisely taken steps to encourage the production of apples. It is a fact that in many orchards only part of the apples are saleable for table fruit and cooking. The remainder are used for making cider. So low is the price that hitherto large quantities of apples have been left rotting in the orchards, because the price would not pay for the labour of making the apples into cider. Therefore, to destroy this industry would hinder the development and production of apples in this country. Apples can be produced successfully in this country only if, in addition to selling the fruit selected for table purposes, there is an opportunity of converting the less valuable fruit into cider. To strangle this business would be to menace the apple supply of the country.
Some total abstainers, I know, would say that you have no right to drink anything alcoholic at all. That is a matter of opinion. The poorer members of the community like to have a drop of cider. It is a healthy beverage, and largely non-alcoholic. If they do not drink cider they will drink beer, thereby encouraging a foreign product instead of drinking the homely, healthy beverage of cider and keeping up the interests of our own country. In those circumstances, I hope that the Government will accept the Amendment. It is not that we are less anxious to make our contributions to the cost of the War than my hon. Friend. Farmers have made a larger proportionate contribution to Income Tax than any other members of the community. Our contention is that this is a proposal which would deny to a large number of the poorer classes a healthful beverage which they appreciate, in the absence of which they would have to have something stronger. Therefore, from the temperance point of view, I ask the Government to accept the Amendment, and, at the same time, prevent the checking of the industry of growing apples.
I was a little startled to hear the hon. Member describe beer as a foreign product.
I think that the hops are imported, and that the maize and other ingredients used are also largely imported.
I do not propose to defend beer, but I always understood from those who love it that it was a distinctly national beverage. I cannot but feel that the defenders of cider are very ill-advised to murmur against the exceedingly light tax which is proposed to be placed on them by the present Budget.
The percentage of alcohol in cider does not far exceed that in mineral waters.
It has been pointed out to the Committee by an hon. Member how very favourably cider has been treated in the past, how it has been encouraged by the Board of Agriculture and the Board of Trade, and how it has been in every way exempted from taxation. That has gone on long enough, and if the industry is to stand on its own legs now it should pay taxation, and, if they are not prepared to pay, then it does not say very much for the beverage which they are defending. The tax which is proposed is very light compared with the tax on beer. My hon. Friend (Mr. Rendall), who is apparently a great authority, says the tax will only be a third of the value of the cider. The tax on ordinary beer is about half. I do not know why the tax on one intoxicating liquor should be lighter than the tax on another intoxicating liquor. The hon. Member opposite (Sir J. Spear) said cider is a good wholesome drink. Does he not think beer a good wholesome drink? Does he not regard wine as a good wholesome drink? It is more heavily taxed than cider. Does he regard whisky as a good wholesome drink?
Wine is not within the reach of the poor.
Whisky is within the reach of the poor; at least, they get it. I can- not see that the defenders of cider have given any sound reason why it should not be taxed. Any intoxication produced by cider is a very noxious kind of intoxication. [An HON. MEMBER: "How do you know?"] I have watched intoxicated men continually. [An HON. MEMBER: "A tribute to glorious beer."] I must say that I have always thought it a great injustice to beer not to tax cider equally in proportion to the alcohol it contains.
What is the kind of intoxication from cider?
The intoxication from cider is a dull and heavy and stupid intoxication. Every inhabitant of Devonshire knows that well. With beer there are moments of brilliancy and exhilaration, I understand, but ultimately the tendency is to stupidity, but not so immediately as with cider. There might have been a less tax put on the lighter kind of cider than on the heavier. In the lighter cider there is about 4 per cent. of alcohol, whereas in the heavier it runs up to 8 per cent., 10 per cent., and 12 per cent. But it is proposed to have a flat rate of taxation for all cider, no matter what the amount of alcohol the heavier ciders may contain, and I consider that cider is thus being let off lightly. The tax should be in proportion to the amount of alcohol contained in the beverage. In the meantime, I can only congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the tax, and I hope that he will not be moved by the fallacious arguments advanced by the defenders of cider.
The hon. Member for Thornbury (Mr. Rendall) claimed that his Constituents were so patriotic that they rejoiced that the tax gave them the opportunity of contributing to the War. I think everybody throughout the country, and I do not think any constituency is different from another in this respect, has accepted these new taxes in a good spirit.
Hear, hear.
The point here is that the small dealers in cider, some of whom I have met since the tax was proposed, see themselves faced with absolute ruin, and they think that that is too high an appeal to their patriotism and unnecessary even in these days that such a thing as that should be insisted upon. The hon. Member said it would be a good thing when somebody's cheap cider did disappear. I agree that in the end that would possibly benefit the cider trade, but in the meantime remember the hardship.
Will not the tax fall on the consumer?
When we take sixpence per gallon ciders the consumer will not pay tenpence, but the hon. Member says you will get a much better drink in the House of Commons and it will improve the best kinds of cider. It will, no doubt, but it will be a great cause of injustice to the small man. The last hon. Member, who is a keen advocate of temperance, pointed out that for a hundred years they had not succeeded in persuading the Chancellors of the Exchequer of the possibility of imposing a duty on cider. It is the difficulties of the capital invested and peculiarities of the cider trade which has kept it exempt even when it was admitted that it contained a percentage of alcohol. I do ask the Chancellor, when he is imposing a duty for the first time, to make it as low as possible instead of the four-pence, which is at the rate of 100 per cent.
Amendment negatived.
Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
I asked a supplementary question of the Chancellor to-day, and in reply he said the point I raised was one which could very properly be raised in debate. I have had no opportunity of doing so within the four corners of any Amendment, and therefore I do so now. The point is, that this tax, which, in the words of the Bill, is an Excise Tax, will not be collected on imported cider.
indicated dissent.
I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that it would be collected in this way, namely, on the sale of imported cider, but only on the sale. What I had in mind was, that in past years it has been a very common thing for people in other countries to grow cider and sell it in London and other parts in competition with English ciders, and to circularise people in England and to offer to sell to them certain small kegs, casks, and bottles of cider for their own consumption. Suppose I buy twelve dozen cider in another country and import it into this country, not for resale, but for my own consumption, I submit it does not come under the Excise, because the Excise is only on the sale, and if there is no Customs Duty there is no tax levied on it at all. The result must be that the man who purchases foreign cider for his own consumption may get it more cheaply than he could buy English cider. The foreign cider maker will certainly get a preference of 4d. a gallon as compared with British cider. I am sure that that was not intended. I have looked into the figures given in 1909, when the Minister of Munitions attempted to bring in a Cider Tax, but had to drop it. The average importation of cider in the years given by the right hon. Gentleman was 30,000 gallons. It is not a large quantity, but, obviously, if cider could be purchased at 4d. a gallon more cheaply abroad than in this country the importation might swell to a very large volume and defeat the object of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. On these grounds I oppose the Clause. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, if we give him Clause 6 now, he will give an undertaking to reconsider between now and the Report stage all the points we have put.
The point raised by my hon. Friend is a real point. The cider sold abroad and directly imported into this country by the consumer would not pay the present duty. What is the extent of the loss? According to the hon. Member, the quantity is 30,000 gallons, including the amount imported for sale. The whole revenue collected on 30,000 gallons would be £500. How much of that £500 represents the loss of tax on cider sold directly to the consumer I cannot say; it is certainly something less than £500. This assurance I can give. If we find that, in consequence of this duty, there is any increase in the import of cider into this country by direct sale, we will certainly have another Resolution imposing a Customs Duty on cider. We have not thought it necessary at present, because the whole amount is so insignificant that it would give more trouble than it is worth. I cannot do it in this Bill, because to get another Resolution would delay the Bill.
I am very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for his reply. But he has not quite come up to the point that I raised. It was: if the foreign-made cider showed a preference—
That does not come is here.
It would be rather an injustice to the home grower, whether it was only £100 or £500.
If it was only £100 the injustice to the home grower would not be very real. But if we find that by the increase in the sale there is any substantial injustice to the home grower, then we will put on a Customs Duty.
And the other points?
What other points?
I understood from the Chancellor of the Duchy that there were other points that would be taken into consideration between now and the Report stage.
All the objections that have been raised will be taken into consideration.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow (Thursday).
Education (Provision of Meals) (Ireland) Bill
Considered in Committee, and reported without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.
The remaining Orders were read and postponed.
It being after half-past Eleven of the clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at One minute before Twelve o'clock.