House of Commons
Thursday, April 13, 1916
Private Business
Wakefield Corporation Bill, Read the third time, and passed.
Edinburgh Corporation Order Confirmation Bill,
Read a second time; and ordered to be considered upon Monday next.
Naval and Marine Pay and Pensions Act, 1865
Copy presented of Order in Council, dated 12th April, 1916, approving a Memorial of the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
TRADING WITH THE ENEMY (MISCELLANEOUS, No. 11, 1916)
Copy presented of Correspondence with the United States Ambassador respecting the Trading With the Enemy (Extension of Powers) Act, 1915 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Public Records
Copy presented of the Seventy-seventh Report of the Deputy-Keeper of the Public Records [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Papers laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House:—
Supreme Court (Rules).—Copy of Rules of the Supreme Court, dated 10th April, 1916 [by Act].
Indictment Rules.—Copy of Indictment (Criminal Informations and Inquisitions) Rules, 1916, under the Indictments Act, 1915, made by the Rule Committee established under the Act [by Act].
Oral Answers to Questions
War
Letter Post—Holland to America
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will make a statement about securities of value which have been intercepted in the letter post on the journey from Holland to America; what is the approximate value of such securities; whether they are being retained or used to strengthen the British exchange; and whether any neutral countries have been in communication with the Foreign Office concerning this matter?
The face value of the securities seized on the ground that they are of enemy origin in approximately £2,000,000 sterling. The securities will be dealt with in the Prize Court in the same way as other German exports. The answer to the third part of the question is in the negative. Various neutral Governments have protested against the action of His Majesty's Government and discussion with them is proceeding.
Steamship "Stockholm" (Consignment of Copper)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what are the conditions previously approved by His Majesty's Government under which the consignment of 1,000 tons of copper was shipped in the steamship "Stockholm" on her last voyage and what guarantees His Majesty's Government had that any part of this consignment of 1,000 tons of copper would not reach Germany in any shape or form; and whether the ownership of the steamship "Stockholm" had anything to-do with the decision to hurry up the proceedings of the Contraband Committee so as to cause the release of this ship within twenty-four hours?
The copper on the steamship "Stockholm" was shipped under the following conditions: that it should be consigned to actual consumers in Sweden; that the contract of sale should contain a clause that neither the copper itself nor any of its products should be exported from the country and that, on arrival, it should be put into warehouse so that it could not afterwards be declared in transit. These conditions were fulfilled. The answer to the second question is in the negative.
Holland, Denmark, and Sweden (Exports to United States)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether certain classes of goods, such as earthen ware, crockery, gloves, artificial flowers, glass, and optical instruments, are being exported to the United States through Holland, Denmark, and Sweden; and, if so, whether he can state the conditions under which such goods are allowed to pass through the blockade?
For the conditions on which His Majesty's Government have allowed the shipment of goods of enemy origin to neutral countries, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to a question put by the hon. Member for the Mansfield Division of Nottinghamshire on 4th November last. No facilities are accorded to the goods enumerated beyond those which would be accorded to other classes of goods, and all are subject to the conditions already referred to. I take this opportunity of repeating that the contract for the purchase of the goods to be exported must have been made before 1st March, 1915, and that no extension of that date can be considered.
British Prisoners (Wittenberg Camp, Germany)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the number of British prisoner camps in Germany and how frequently they are visited on behalf of His Majesty's Government; and whether, in view of the recent Report on the prisoners' camp at Wittenberg, he can arrange for more frequent visits to be made to all camps and for the Reports received on same to be published immediately they are received?
According to an official statement by the Prussian Ministry of War, which was issued to the Press on 14th February last, there are in Germany twenty-five camps for officer prisoners; forty-six for rank and file, and forty-two lazarettes. Nearly all the camps and a considerable number of the lazerettes have been visited by the United States Embassy at Berlin, the more important camps on a number of occasions. When complaints are received with regard to a camp, the United States Ambassador at Berlin is requested to send a member of his staff to inspect it; the reports on camps are issued to the Press as soon as they are received. The staff of the United States Embassy at Berlin is being increased by four medical men to enable more frequent visits to be paid to camps. The German authorities refused to permit a visit to Wittenberg, during the period covered by the recent report, on the ground of infection.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the present number of British prisoners at Wittenberg; what is the date and purport of the last report of the American Embassy in Berlin on their visit to the camp; and whether, in view of the recent published report on this camp, he will arrange for frequent and special visits and reports of this camp?
There are about 700 British prisoners at Wittenberg Camp and in the outlying camps attached to it. The last report from the United States Ambassador at Berlin on this camp is dated the 10th of March, was received on the 22nd of March, and was issued to the Press on the 28th of March. The report states, among other things, that there was a decided improvement in conditions since the previous reports in November and January and that the Commandant had been changed. Three visits have been paid to this camp since October and the reports have been issued to the Press as soon as they were received. It is hoped to lay before Parliament shortly these reports with a considerable number of others on camps in Germany which, however, have all been issued to the Press.
Were the Foreign Office aware of the serious facts of the case at the time they occurred, and what steps did they take to deal with them?
I shall be obliged if my right hon. Friend would give me notice of the question as to when we first knew of the conditions at the camp. As the House will gather from the report, we did not know the full facts until quite recently, when the two doctors had been released from the camp. With regard to the steps taken, we pressed continually for visits of inspection to the camps and reports on the camps whenever we heard that there was trouble. The right hon. Gentleman will realise from the answer I have just given that in the Wittenberg case the German authorities refused to permit visits to Wittenberg during the period covered by the recent report, on the ground of infection, therefore we could not know.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the proposed visits to which he has alluded are known beforehand or are they surprise visits?
I should like to have notice of that.
When will reports be issued showing the number of British prisoners who have died in German camps?
I cannot say that. When the reports are issued, if questions arise upon them, they can be put. Reports have been issued to the Press already.
Munitions
Female Workers (Change of Hours)
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he will arrange, in all cases where female workers have been recently changed from 8-hour to 12-hour shifts, that a full Report may be sent to him weekly of all cases of discharges, temporary absence from illness or other cause, loss of time, accidents, and illnesses; and whether he will periodically consider, in the light of such reports and of the results obtained in output, whether the 12-hour shift system should be continued?
So far as I know, the only controlled establishments which have recently changed from a three to a two-shift system for women workers are the one to which reference has been recently made in questions asked in this House, and one other. Both these cases are being carefully watched, particularly from the point of view of health, and if necessary my right hon. Friend is quite prepared to call for a reversion to the previous system.
Is one of these places Woolwich Arsenal?
No, Sir.
Can the hon. Gentleman say whether in any national factory directly under the control of the Ministry of Munitions—Huddersfield, for example—a recent change has been made from an eight hours' to a twelve hours' shift?
I think there was a case, only one case, which is the other referred to here. I am not quite sure whether it is that place or not. I only got to know of it a few days ago. I do not think the shift has been changed yet.
Is it not a very serious thing that a national factory under the control of the Ministry of Munitions is going to give this example to private employers to increase the working hours from eight to twelve?
It is not an increase in the working hours.
Is my hon. Friend aware that, though he has answered several supplementary questions, he has not directly answered the question on the Paper, namely, whether he will periodically have reports of this nature sent to him?
There is only this one case and the other which I am still doubtful about. There is no other case in existence that I know of.
Dublin Port and Docks Board
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he has received an offer from the Dublin Port and Docks Board of 200 men for munition work; if so, whether he is aware that the majority of these men are unskilled workers; whether he made any request to the Dublin Port and Docks Board for men; and if, before the said 200 men are dismissed, the Munitions Department will guarantee them employment?
No such offer as that referred to by my hon. Friend appears to have been received in the Ministry of Munitions from the Dublin Port and Docks Board, nor has a request for men been, addressed to the Board by the Ministry.
Swansea Explosives Factory
asked the Minister of Munitions whether his attention has been drawn to a case of a fitter tried before the Swansea Munitions Court for falling asleep at his work in an explosives factory; whether he is aware that the defendant stated without contradiction that the hours were more than men could stand, and that he worked twenty-four hours at a stretch twice a week, and that, in view of the good character of the man, the summons was dismissed; and whether he will cause investigation to be made into these hours with a view to redress?
I have seen the chairman's notes on a case which appears to be that referred to. There was evidence of long hours being worked, but the case was dismissed on the ground that the factory was not a controlled establishment at the time when the offence was alleged. I am, however, having inquiries made of the firm.
Canadian Workers (Release Certificates)
asked the Minister of Munitions, whether his attention has been called to the case of two Canadian workmen, Thomas Losh and Robert Arthur Woodward, who appeared before the Barrow Munitions Court in order to apply for their release certificates; whether he is aware that these men have worked under a six months' agreement drawn up with the Board of Trade and that the agreement has expired; that the men desire to leave Messrs. Vickers but to continue munition work in this country; that, as Messrs. Vickers refuse to grant the release certificates and as the Munitions Court upheld this decision, the men are free to return to Canada but are not free to accept employment in any part of this country; and, as this decision will affect a growing number of Canadian workmen, whether it is proposed to take any action?
My attention has been called to this case, and notice of appeal to the Munitions Appeal Tribunal has been given on my behalf.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a decision in a directly contrary sense has just been given at Manchester, and a Canadian there, after a six months' working agreement with the Board of Trade, has been liberated and is free to seek employment elsewhere? What is the policy of the Ministry of Munitions on this subject?
The Appeal Tribunal was set up in order to standardise questions of this kind, and the Ministry has put the case before the Appeal Tribunal in order to get their views on the subject.
Is not the case of the Canadian brought over to this country under a six months' agreement with the Board of Trade in a different category from an ordinary case of British workpeople under the Munitions Act?
I understand it involves legal questions, and that is why I have asked the Appeal Tribunal to advise us.
Messrs. John Brown and Co., Ltd
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware that ejectment notices have been served by Messrs. John Brown and Company, Limited, on a number of munition workers in Clydebank; and whether, in view of the fact that there is no housing accommodation available in the district for the men threatened with ejection, he proposes to taken any action in the matter?
This matter has not previously been brought to the notice of the Ministry of Munitions. If my hon. Friend would be so good as to send me information about it, I shall be glad to have inquiries made.
Gas and Electricity (Restricted Use)
asked the Minister of Munitions if he will introduce legislation to limit the use of gas and electricity for lighting purposes after a stated hour, thereby increasing the supply of certain by-products required for munitions, and also effecting further economies in the use of coal?
My right hon. Friend does not think that the action suggested would produce the result desired; but I may say that steps have already been taken to ensure that the requirements of munition work should rank before all other considerations in the conduct of both gas and electricity undertakings.
Woolwich Arsenal (Boy and Girl Labour)
asked the Minister of Munitions how many boys and girls, respectively, are working for seven days in the week at Woolwich Arsenal?
No girls or boys in the Ordnance Factories at Woolwich are engaged continuously upon seven shifts per week. The maximum number of shifts that young persons under the age of eighteen years are called upon to work is twelve and a half or thirteen shifts per fortnight.
Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he will reconsider the Order made by the Central Control Board prohibiting the representative of a brewer from calling for orders or collecting money for the delivery of beer required for home consumption, in view of the fact that such restrictions operate with hardship in rural districts and have a general tendency to substitute the consumption of spirits for that of light ale?
As I have previously stated, there are strong grounds for the Order in question, and it would not be expedient to modify its provisions.
Arising out of the unsatisfactory nature of the hon. Gentleman's reply, I shall raise the question on the Adjournment to-night.
Military Service
Married Men
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he has had a sight of a letter, dated 27th March, from Mr. Thomas Smith, mayor of Mansfield and chairman of the Mansfield Tribunal under the Military Service Act, 1916, stating that all the members of the tribunal were unanimously agreed that the Government pledge as understood by the married men has not been fulfilled, and that the attested men, by obeying the instructions issued by the Government, had placed themselves in a worse position than if they had not done so, for they were led to believe that if they did not attest compulsion would be applied; whether this tribunal has postponed the hearing of appeals by married men on the ground that the tribunal is unanimously of opinion that they cannot carry out their duties without injustice to the married men; and what steps does he propose taking?
My hon. Friend has been good enough to send me the letter to which he refers. On the substance of his question I would refer to the reply given by the Prime Minister yesterday to the hon. Baronet and to my reply on Thursday last to the hon. Member for South Paddington. The hon. Baronet has no doubt seen a report of the statement made by the Prime Minister to a deputation yesterday.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the circular in question was issued by the authorities of Mansfield?
No, I cannot. I made inquiries just before I left my office, but I did not receive any information.
Attested Men
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether an attested man who is the only child of parents both over sixty years of age, and who has claimed exemption on the ground of exceptional domestic hardship, is entitled to appeal to the Central Tribunal if his claim is rejected by the local tribunals; and what steps he can take if the local Appeal Tribunal refuses him leave to appeal to the Central Tribunal?
The Miliary Service Act provides that a person aggrieved by the decision of an Appeal Tribunal can only appeal to the Central Tribunal by leave of the Appeal Tribunal. If leave is not given, the decision of the Appeal Tribunal is final.
Then the appeal to the second tribunal is really of no use unless the body which has judged the case permits it?
Yes, that is so.
Do attested men come under the Military Service Act? The question is with regard to the attested men.
They come under the procedure of the Military Service Act in regard to notice of appeal.
Has not the attested man a right to appeal to the Central Tribunal?
No.
Yes, he has.
Fishing Industry (Coopers)
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether coopers employed in the fishing industry, although they are in a reserved occupation, have been refused exemption by the Lowestoft Tribunal; and whether he can take any action to secure for these men similar treatment to that accorded to coopers in other places and have them granted exemption?
I am not aware of the matter to which the right hon. Gentleman refers. I am having inquiry made.
Cases Under Consideration
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been drawn to the case of Noel Webb, of York, who applied for exemption from the Military Service Act, 1916, on the ground of conscientious objection; whether the local tribunal granted him absolute exemption; that, on appeal by the military representative, the York Appeal Tribunal reversed the decision and granted exemption from combatant service only; whether members of this Appeal tribunal have stated that this tribunal has proceeded on the assumption that it is not competent for them to grant absolute exemption to conscientious objectors; and, if so, whether he will take steps to inform this tribunal of the extent of their legal powers, and will advise them to allow an appeal to the Central Tribunal in cases which have been decided by them on a misinterpretation of the law?
I am making inquiries in the matter to which the hon. Member refers.
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he has had his attention called to the case of Thomas Peter Robinson, of Tooting, who was arrested for failing to surrender under the Military Service Act, 1916; whether he is aware that the Advisory Committee, as well as the military representative, had agreed that Robinson should have exemption, and that he possesses a form to that effect from the Advisory Committee; that the magistrate at the South-Western Police Court declared that this man should not have been arrested; that his brother had been killed at the front, and that his widowed mother was told that she had nothing to worry about; and whether inquiry will be made to ascertain why this man was arrested and kept in a cell?
asked the Under secretary for War whether he is aware of the facts connected with G. S. Abbott, of Bridport, a conscientious objector, whose appeal was refused by the Dorchester Appeal Tribunal recently; that he was arrested on 4th April and handed over to the military authority that day; that on his father calling on Colonel Wakely at Dorchester on 5th April he was referred to a clerk, a sergeant, who told him that if his son did not do his duty he would be put up against a wall and shot, and repeated this statement to the father the following day in the presence of several non-commissioned officers; whether G. S. Abbott has now been sent to Wyke to the camp of the 3rd Dorsets, where there are epidemics of scarlet fever and measles and cases of small pox; is he aware that this man has offered to join the Friends' ambulance unit forthwith at his own expense or perform any work of national advantage outside military control; and what course does he propose to take with him?
asked what action has been taken upon the conduct of Major Bruce, the local recruiting officer at Walsall, who has threatened to arrest a local trade union secretary for sending out a circular to trade union branches asking for assistance in forming a local branch of the national council against Conscription, to combat the spirit of militarism, and to demand the repeal of the Military Service Act, 1916?
asked the Undersecretary for War who was the doctor who certified as fit for military service the late Private Llewellyn Davies, No. 25,606, D Company, Welsh Regiment; whether he has received from the Rhymney District Council the information that Davies had been unable to follow his employment for fourteen years in consequence of ill-health, and that he died twenty-three days after having been called upon to join the Army; and whether it is intended to allow the medical officer who certified Davies as fit to continue to examine recruits for the Army?
asked the Under-secretary for War whether his attention has been called to the action of Major Garland, of the Ellon Tribunal, in which he explained to the tribunal that because John Forbes, a farm servant who had been granted a temporary exemption, had asked for higher wages from the farmer he had called him up again immediately; whether he has sanctioned the military representative interfering in a man's private affairs; and what action he proposes to take?
asked the Under-secretary for War whether he is aware that yellow forms summoning men to report themselves are being issued by the recruiting authorities at Wandsworth Town Hall indiscriminately to men whose cases are under appeal; whether his attention has been called to the case of Thomas P. Robinson, 295, Franciscan Road, Tooting, who, though the Advisory Committee and the military representative had agreed to his exemption, was arrested on the 4th instant, kept in gaol during that night, and brought before the South Western Police Court on the 5th, when he was discharged; whether he proposes to offer any redress to this man; and whether he will give instructions that more care be exercised in the issue of the notices so that similar blunders may be prevented in the future?
asked the Under secretary for War whether his attention has been drawn to the case of James A. Loukes, 370, Main Road, Darnall, Sheffield; whether he is aware that this man, a shorthand clerk, attended on the 9th December last the local recruiting station for the purpose of being attested under Lord Derby's scheme, but after medical examination the doctor stated he could not serve without first undergoing a serious operation to his foot and that the attestation form was marked accordingly; that he afterwards attended the Corn Exchange recruiting station and received an ordinary Army medical rejection form endorsed with a memorandum of rejectment, and signed by A. Gladwin, second lieutenant; that, despite this rejection, he received notice on the 8th March, under the Military Service Act, 1916, to join the Colours; that he returned the notice with a statement that he had been rejected on medical grounds and later sent a full copy of the rejection certificate to the recruiting officials; that on Tuesday, the 4th April, a police-detective visited his mother's house in connection with this matter and that on the following day two detectives visited him at his employer's place of business; that when he produced his rejection certificate the detectives stated that they did not think Lieutenant Gladwin's signature was genuine; and whether the War Office can take steps to prevent this man and many other men from being treated in this way?
asked the Undersecretary for War whether his attention has been called to the case of No. 5177, Private Albert Pemberton, 2/4th York and Lancaster, whose home address is 16, Main Road, Intake, Sheffield; whether he is aware that this private offered himself for attestation under Lord Derby's scheme on 8th December and was medically rejected, being unfit and below standard and only weighing 104 lbs.; that he subsequently received a form requesting him to appear before the recruiting authorities at the Corn Exchange, Sheffield, and that when he produced his rejection certificate it was taken from him with the remark that it was no good; that he was straightway forced into the Army and now lies ill in hospital; and what action the War Office propose to take?
asked the Undersecretary for War if he will say what action he has taken against the military recruiting officer at Banbury for illegally arresting John Upton, of Banbury, who was excepted from the Military Service Act, 1916, having been medically rejected on 11th December last; why the recruiting officer sent the Army form to Mr. Upton, which Upton promptly returned personally and was told that a mistake had been made; why after this, on 7th April, Upton was arrested and kept in custody till next day; and, in view of the number of similar acts on the part of military officers, will he make an example of the officer guilty of this offence?
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Mr. Arthur Thomas Ellis, late of 26, Mundania Road, Honor Oak, S.E., a solicitor, aged thirty-seven, an attested man, wrote on the 26th February, 1916, to Captain Howard, recruiting officer at Camberwell Road, asking that he might be examined by a Medical Board at once in order that he might know how he stood, in accordance with the advertised suggestion of the War Office; that Captain Howard wrote him in reply on 3rd March that he could be at once examined for this purpose, and that he was accordingly examined by the Medical Board on 9th March at the Camberwell Baths, and was informed that he would be placed in Class B4 as only fit for clerical duties and would not be called up except after two months' notice and probably not at all, and need not report when his group was called; whether, notwithstanding this undertaking, Mr. Ellis was, on the 28th March, cálled on to join up on the 5th April and compelled on that day to undergo another medical examination before the same Board, when he was passed as fit for labour abroad, and on the following day was sent to join a labour battalion; and whether, in view of the fact that Mr. Ellis relied and acted upon the result of the first medical examination and the assurance that he would not be called up without two months' notice, he may be put back into the class into which he was first placed by the Medical Board, and that the undertaking given to him that he would not be called up without two months' notice may be carried out?
All these questions admit of being answered together, and it will save the time of the House if I give one answer.
The answer is that I am waiting for the information necessary to reply to these questions, and that I am not in possession of it to-day.
In what manner and by what medium will the information be conveyed to the respective hon. Members when the right hon. Gentleman comes into possession of it?
It has been my custom, as I think the hon. Member is aware, to write letters explaining and giving the answers in respect of these various questions to the hon. Gentleman concerned.
Arising out of the answer to Question 82, may I ask whether he requires to ask for information in regard to this, and whether he cannot say at once that it is not the duty of the military representative to take anything into consideration, but the fact that the man may or may not be eligible for the Army?
I must really understand the matter before I can go into it.
As the right hon. Gentleman has received a newspaper containing the information regarding Question 83 is he ready to give consideration to the details?
Did my hon. Friend send me the information?
Yes, I did.
If the hon. Member tells me that, I accept it.
Widows' Sons
asked the President of the Local Government Board if widows' sons between eighteen and nineteen years of age who are to be called up for training will have the right to appeal to the local tribunal on the ground of indispensability?
Every person coming under the Military Service Act has been given an opportunity of applying to a local tribunal if his circumstances warrant it, and a similar privilege is accorded to all attested men.
asked the Prime Minister what steps he intends to take to secure that his twice-repeated pledge, that the only son of a widow who was the sole support of his mother should not be taken, shall be observed; and what he proposes to do in the cases where sons in such circumstances are being taken under the Act?
As I pointed out to my hon. Friend on 9th March, the letter which my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board addressed to the Central Appeal Tribunal on the 23rd February seems to me amply to fulfil both the letter and spirit of the strictly limited statement I made on this subject. I have every reason to think that in the vast majority of cases the local tribunals are strictly following my right hon. Friend's advice, and individual cases of harshness seem to me to be adequately met by the system of Appeal Tribunals set up under the Act.
Number of Men Available
asked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the experience of other countries where military service is compulsory, and after making any deductions necessary on account of those medically unfit and those who could not be spared from industries of military or national importance, he can state approximately what percentage of the total population the Government would expect to be available under conditions of compulsory military service for all males between the ages of nineteen and forty?
This is one of the aspects of the question of recruiting which, as I informed the House last Thursday, the Government are at present examining. I shall deal with it, as far as it can properly be dealt with, when I announce the results of this examination.
Officers' Training Corps
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether Irish members of the Officers' Training Corps not ordinarily resident in Great Britain are liable to be called up under the Military Service Act, 1916?
The answer to this question depends upon the construction of Section 1, Sub-section (1), and Section 1, Sub-section (4) of the Military Service Act. I cannot, I fear, arrogate to myself the powers and authority of a Court of Law, and I am, consequently, unable to offer to my hon. Friend a ruling on the point which he raises.
Is it not the fact that these young men entered upon military training on the distinct understanding that they were going into the Officers' Training Corps, to be trained to become officers and receive commissions; is it the fact that a large number of them are now informed that they are not going to receive commissions, not through inefficiency or failure in training, but for other reasons; and are they now, under these circumstances, being forced to go as privates into the ranks?
I think a certain number, not a large number, so far as I know, of young men from Ireland have joined the Officers' Training Corps, and have been informed in the course of training in this country that they will not receive commissions. There may be a large number training, but only a small number, a fairly small number, have been informed that they cannot receive commissions, but that is not on other than purely military grounds. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that it is on purely military grounds. I understand that the hon. Gentleman is to give me the benefit of his company this afternoon, and we may then together go into the question in detail, but I can assure him that it is on purely military grounds.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that at the present moment there are in this particular Officers' Training Corps 200 young Irishmen who entered the Corps on the understanding that they were to get commissions. Is it not the fact that a very large number, not a small number, but a large number of these young men, who have been recommended as efficient by the commanding officer of the Officers' Training Corps, have been informed that they will not get commissions, and that they must join the ranks as privates?
No, Sir. I think the hon. Gentleman has been misinformed. There are 4,000 young men in the Officers' Training Corps, and it may be that 200—not a very large number out of 4,000—are Irishmen; but the number who have been told that they are to receive no commissions is only fifty, and they cannot all be Irish.
Is there any distinction made in the granting of commissions between Englishmen and Irishmen?
No, Sir; none whatever.
Did not the right hon. Gentleman distinctly state a fortnight ago that no commissions—save in very rare cases—would be given except to men who have served in the ranks?
Yes, Sir; but the hon. Gentleman omits to say that I announced that commissions would only be given to young men who have either served in the ranks of a unit or in an officers' training company.
Does the right hon. Gentleman know that young men have come from New Zealand, Australia, and Canada and joined the Officers' Training Corps expecting that they would become officers, and that these men were turned out of the War Office and told to be privates?
The hon. Gentleman cannot expect the War Office to be responsible for the military efficiency of every man that comes from Timbuctoo or any other quarter.
Questions
Great Eastern Railway (Closed Stations)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the Great Eastern Railway Company purpose closing the stations at Bethnal Green, Cambridge Heath, and London Fields; and, if so, whether this is being done with his sanction?
I am in communication with the railway company on this matter, and I will inform my hon. Friend of the result.
Industrial Compulsion (Taff Vale Railway Company)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that William Philpin, of Abercynon, aged fifty-nine years, recently terminated his employment on the Taff Vale Railway by tendering notice to the company; that he then made application for employment at the Dowlais Cardiff Colliery, where he was informed that an ex-railwayman could not be employed, owing to the existence of an agreement, without the sanction of the railway company; and thus being deprived of employment elsewhere Philpin inquired whether the railway company were prepared to re-employ him, to which the locomotive foreman replied in the negative, and the superintendent forwarded a letter stating that he could not be released from the company's service, for the reason that a refusal to carry out a duty must be dealt with in order to secure discipline; and, in view of the element of industrial compulsion involved in this case and also the attempt to prevent a man earning a living, whether he will, as President of the Railway Executive, at once take such action as will effectively stop practices of this kind?
I am making inquiries in regard to this matter, and I will communicate with my hon. Friend upon receipt of the information.
Post Office Tube
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that a large number of men at present employed in the Post Office tube are urgently wanted for pioneer battalions and other Royal Engineer units; and if he will, on these grounds and on those of national economy, suspend such work until after the War?
For the reasons explained by my predecessor in December last, in reply to the hon. Member for Bosworth, it would not be expedient, from the point of view of economy, to suspend work on the Post Office Tube Railway. But I am considering, in conjunction with the Ministry of Munitions, whether it would be advisable to divert some of the men now employed on the tunnel.
I should like to put one or two points connected with this particular work before the right hon. Gentleman, if I may.
I shall be very glad to hear what the hon. Gentleman has to say.
Output of Beer (Restriction) Bill
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that under the proposals for the restriction of brewing it will be possible for those brewers who own tied houses to give the usual supply to their own houses by the simple expedient of refusing to supply to those free houses which they formerly supplied; and whether, in view of the fact that such an evasion would not be in the interests of temperance, he will provide that free publicans will be entitled to obtain from brewers a certificate showing the amount supplied in the year 1914, that on presentation of this certificate any other brewer will be entitled to supply a similar amount less 28 per cent., and that the output of the brewer who originally supplied will be reduced proportionately, thus keeping the total output at the figure already determined upon?
The suggestion made in the question has been considered, but it does not appear to be practicable to insist that a certain proportion of the reduced output of beer shall be set aside for particular dealers who have no contracts with brewers.
Will not the effect of the proposed arrangement be that the free houses will be crushed between the upper and the nether millstones, and we shall get no supplies at all, and the whole trade will be diverted into the hands of the tied houses?
I am aware that the question is one of very considerable difficulty. A Bill is to be introduced to-day to deal with the question and it can be considered then.
asked the President of the Board of Trade how many quarters of foreign barley for brewing purposes were imported into the United Kingdom in the years 1914 and 1915, and the extent of the reduction in imports which the Restriction of Brewing Bill will make?
Imports of barley for brewing purposes are not distinguished in the Trade Returns from imports for other purposes. It appears, however, from inquiries made by the Excise authorities, that some 2,000,000 quarters of foreign barley were used in brewing during the brewing year ended September, 1914, and 1,500,000 quarters in the year 1914–15. The reduction in the output of beer which will be enforced by the Bill is intended to secure a reduction of one-third in the quantity of imported barley used, as compared with the latter year.
Is not the figure of 28 per cent. too large a percentage?
I think my hon. Friend is aware that the calculation has been very carefully made, and 28 per cent. is exactly the figure calculated to produce the result of a reduction of 33⅓ per cent.
It does not tally with the figure you have just given.
Yes, it does.
German AthenæUm, Limited
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is in a position to state the name of the person who is shown by the books of the German Athenaeum, Limited, now in the possession of the Board of Trade, to have given or advanced to the said German Athenaeum, Limited, the sum of £15,000 with which a mortgage upon the property held by the German Athenaeum, Limited, was paid off; and whether he will give the date when such advance or gift was made?
The payment off of the mortgages of the property of the German Athenæum, Limited, was effected by a transfer of the mortgage, and the company's books do not show definitely by whom the money was provided. It appears from the minutes that Baron Schroder promised to provide £5,500, Sir Ernest Cassel £5,000, and Mr. Otto Beit £2,000 of the amount required, and no doubt these and other smaller amounts were paid. The transaction was completed early in March.
Post Offices (Curtailment of Hours)
asked the Postmaster-General what is the amount of money per week saved to the Treasury by the reduction of the business hours in the principal post office of Kilkenny City, which has caused so much inconvenience to the citizens and aroused so much indignation?
The restriction of hours of public business at the Kilkenny Post Office has rendered it unnecessary to provide a substitute for a sorting clerk and telegraphist who has been released for duty elsewhere. The value of the services of a sorting clerk and telegraphist, reckoned at the mean of the scale of pay, is about 32s. a week, or rather over £83 per year.
asked the Postmaster-General whether post offices are now opened at 9 a.m. instead of 8 a.m.; if so, why this change was made without giving warning to the public; whether the curtailment of office hours is to be further extended; and whether economy or short age of labour is responsible for this policy?
The hours of Business at post offices are being restricted generally, but any changes in the hours of opening are only adopted after careful consideration of public interests and are due to the depletion of staff and in order to effect economy. Notice of alterations in the hours of attendance is usually given in advance by the local postmaster to the public by means of window notices or through the local Press.
How many days are allowed to the postmasters to notify the localities and their customers?
The arrangements are made by the local postmasters in their own districts and a good deal of discretion has been given them as to the notice they may think it necessary to give to the public.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that some postmasters take it upon themselves to close their post offices for this hour right away and then only give notice to the public afterwards, and will be stop that?
The postmasters, as a rule, are in close consultation with the surveyors of their districts. If my hon. Friend will bring to my notice any such instance as he has described I will look into it.
Norwegian Nickel
To ask the First Lord of the Admiralty if he can say whether any effort was made on behalf of an Admiralty Committee in February, 1915, to secure an option on the total output of Norwegian nickel for twelve months; whether such option was obtained; and whether, in view of the fact that nickel is an absolute essential for all munitions, a contract was entered into, and why the same is not now in force.
I have been asked not to press this question and have been reluctantly compelled to accede to the request.
Royal Naval Reserve (Bounty)
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether men belonging to the Royal Naval Reserve are entitled to a bounty when they have completed their term of service; and, if so, whether, if any of these men lose their lives during the War, the bounty is paid to their next-of-kin?
In normal times Royal Naval Reservists are entitled, on discharge at the completion of their final term of service, to a gratuity of £50, payment being deferred, if necessary, until the age of forty is reached, or the grant of a deferred pension certificate carrying the right to a life pension of £12 a year from the age of sixty. All discharges, except for ill-health, have, however, been suspended during the War. Reservists on active service become eligible for compensation on the same scale as active service ratings, and if they lose their lives during the War the gratuity does not form part of their estates, but their widows or dependants receive pensions or allowances under the scales recommended by the Select Committee.
Air Services
Zeppelin L15 (Treatment of Prisoners)
asked the Prime Minister whether the officers and crew captured from the Zeppelin which foundered in the estuary of the Thames are regarded other than as ordinary prisoners of war; and, if so, what reason can be adduced for differential treatment?
The officers and crew captured from the Zeppelin are regarded and treated precisely as other prisoners of war.
Enemy Raids
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the conflict of opinion as to the duties and responsibilities of officers commanding anti-aircraft guns, he will state as far as is consistent with the public interest the nature of the orders under which they act and who is responsible in the event of failure to give the order to fire?
There is no conflict of opinion as to the duties of officers commanding anti-aircraft guns. The nature of the orders under which these officers act cannot in the interest of the public be made known, except to say that all officers in charge of guns have the most stringent orders to fire at hostile aircraft whenever they have any chance of hitting them. In the event of an anti-aircraft gun failing to fire, the officer in charge of the gun is alone responsible.
asked the Prime Minister whether it is with the sanction of the Government that the actual number of deaths from Zeppelin raids has been withheld from the public; and can he give an assurance that in future there shall be no attempt to conceal the total casualties?
The numbers of deaths from Zeppelin raids have never been concealed. The exact figures are carefully collected by the police and are published in full. The numbers are often increased by deaths from wounds, and in such cases revised figures are published. I must express my surprise that the hon. Member should have thought fit to make the allegation contained in the first part of the question.
Does the right hon. Gentleman wish me to state to this House the facts upon which this question is based?
I have given my answer.
Joint War Air Committee
asked the Prime Minister whether he can give any information concerning the resignations of the Earl of Derby and Lord Montagu of Beaulieu from the Joint Air Committee; whether the Committee still continues its labours; and whether appointments have been made to replace the members who have resigned?
asked the Prime Minister (1) whether, in resigning their positions on the Joint War Air Committee, Lord Derby as Chairman and Lord Montagu as a member of that Committee have put forward any practical proposals for making such a Committee an effective instrument; if so, can he see his way to putting those proposals before the House of Commons so that Members may have an opportunity of discussing them before the Easter Recess; (2) whether he has been informed of the reasons for the resignations of Lord Derby and Lord Montagu from the Joint War Air Committee; and, in view of the public interest in the matter, can he see his way to communicate those reasons to the House; and (3) whether he is aware that, owing to the recent resignations from the Joint War Air Committee, the work of the Committee has been brought to a standstill; and will he now disband that Committee and seek to establish some body which shall have real power and responsibility in the effective organisation of our Air Services for offence and defence?
All aspects of this question are at present under consideration, and I hope to make a statement on the subject early next week.
Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to make any statement that will enlighten the public before the House adjourns?
I hope that it will enlighten the public.
Committee of Inquiry
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the public anxiety as to the condition of the Air Services, he can now make an announcement as to the nature and scope of the inquiry into the allegations of the Member for East Herts?
The terms of reference to the Committee of Inquiry will be as follows: To inquire into and report upon the administration and command of the Royal Flying Corps, with particular reference to the charges made, both in Parliament and elsewhere against the officials and officers responsible for that administration and command, and to make any recommendations in relation thereto. The names of the Committee will be announced as soon as possible.
Can the right hon. Gentleman state when this inquiry is likely to take place?
With all possible promptitude.
Enemy Property in United Kingdom
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the value of the property belonging to enemies or enemy subjects which has been vested in, or received by, the custodian for England and Wales, for Scotland, and for Ireland, respectively; and whether he will consider the desirability of forthwith making good all damage caused in this country by hostile air raids out of such property?
The approximate estimate of the amounts is: I am unable to adopt the suggestion in the last part of the hon. and learned Member's question.
May I ask whether the Germans have established any claim upon us for special consideration in regard to safeguarding their property?
No, Sir, but I do not think that the question covers the whole ground.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give me any reason for not adopting this suggestion?
I should be glad to discuss the question with the hon. and learned Member, but an answer to a supplementary question is not a convenient way of doing it.
Budget Proposals
Cider Duty
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Board of Agriculture and the managing committee of the National Cider Institute were consulted before the new taxation of the Cider Duty was decided upon?
The National Cider Institute was not consulted. The Board of Agriculture was, of course, aware of the proposals.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has formed any estimate of the return to the Treasury of his proposed Cider Duty; and, if so, by what amount such revenue is likely to exceed the cost of collection?
The yield is estimated at about £100,000 a year. The cost of collection is negligible.
After the large amount of enlightenment given to the right hon. Gentleman in the Debate yesterday, has he found opportunity to revise his estimates on both these points?
My right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary will discuss the question this afternoon when the Amendments to Clause 7 come up.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the proposed taxation of cider will be a heavier burden on the industry than the Beer Duty is upon brewing; and whether he will favourably consider the reduction of the proposed rate of 4d. per gallon?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. As regards the last part, I would refer my hon. Friend to yesterday's Debate.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he would state, approximately, how many farms, small holdings, and cottages there are in the United Kingdom where cider and perry are usually made, and which may there fore, under Clause 7 (2) of the Finance (New Duties) Bill be required to be registered or licensed?
I fear I am unable to supply the figures.
asked if imported cider will have to pay duty before it is released from bond?
Perhaps my hon. Friend will be good enough to await this afternoon's Debate.
May I ask if the right hon. Gentleman cannot even go so far as to say whether the number would be in hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands?
I am sure that my hon. Friend knows a great deal more about the subject than I do.
May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman would take some advice from me on the subject?
I hope to get the advantage of the hon. Member's advice this afternoon.
Will the right hon. Gentleman relieve himself altogether of the burden of this matter by putting it on the hon. Member?
Motor-Car Duties
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, before introducing the promised Bill to increase the duties on motor cars, he will consider the possibility of exempting from such increase the cars of doctors, veterinary surgeons, and those using their cars solely or mainly in the public service?
As regards doctors and veterinary surgeons, I beg to refer the hon. and learned Member to the answers I gave yesterday. I am considering the question of cars used exclusively in the public service.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if motor cars used exclusively for business purposes will be subject to the increased taxes proposed in the Finance Bill for motor cars generally?
It is not proposed to interfere with the existing exemption of trade vehicles not being carriages within the meaning of Section 4 of the Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1888.
Income Tax Deductions
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that an Income Tax payer is allowed to deduct from his income the life policy contribution; and whether he will allow the £150 Income Tax payer to deduct from his income the contribution paid to his trade union and friendly society?
Under the conditions of general application, any taxpayer is entitled to a deduction from his gross income of sums paid for insurance on the life of himself and his wife and for so much of any contributions to a trade union as is allocated to superannuation benefits. No change in this rule is proposed.
Gold Reserves
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how soon he thinks it will be possible to introduce the promised Bill to prevent further depletion of the gold reserves of this country?
I hope to introduce a Bill to control the use of gold for manufacturing purposes at a very early date.
Naval and Military Services
Pensions and Grants
asked the Under secretary of State for War whether a soldier's wife who has to enter an infirmary is deprived temporarily of the whole of her separation allowance; why this is so; and whether the War Office will allow in such a case the payment of her rent and other standing charges incurred by her whilst she is absent from home?
I would refer my right hon. Friend to the answer which I gave on the 4th instant to my hon. and learned and gallant Friend the Member for West St. Pancras. I regret I am not in a position to say anything further at present.
asked whether the Regulations provide that while the widow of an officer killed in action receives a pension assessed at the rates laid down for any temporary rank held at the time of the officer's death, an officer who is wounded loses his temporary rank on leaving his command, and, in the event of his death from wounds, his widow's pension is assessed at the rates laid down for his permanent rank; and, if so, whether this Regulation will be amended and made retrospective?
No, Sir. The Regulations provide that the widow in such case gets the benefit of the temporary rank.
Distinguished Conduct Decorations
asked the Under-Secretary for War whether he will take steps to ensure that the Distinguished Conduct Medal and the new military medal shall in proper cases be granted to the parents or representatives of soldiers who have been killed in action by way of posthumous honours, in like manner as the Victoria Cross is now granted?
It would be beyond my powers to ensure that what my hon. and learned Friend desires will be done. I may tell him, however, that the whole question of posthumous honours is under consideration, and, when I say the whole question, he will realise that it is not only the War Office, but the Admiralty, Foreign Office, Colonial Office and India Office which are concerned. Obviously, if the rules and practice are altered, they must be altered generally, and not only as regards purely military distinctions such as those mentioned in my hon. and learned Friend's question.
Is not the analogy of the case I have mentioned and that of the Victoria Cross a very close one?
I cannot deny that.
Consumption (Treatment for Soldiers)
asked how many military and Territorial hospitals have had verandahs built for the purpose, inter alia, of providing treatment for consumptive soldiers; and approximately the number of patients who could be accommodated and treated on these verandahs?
Soldiers suffering from pulmonary tuberculosis are discharged from the Service and admitted to sanatoria under arrangements made with the Insurance Commissioners and the Local Government Board. It is true that a special type of hut has been designed with verandahs for the treatment of some cases, though not necessarily for consumptive patients, but I have no data as to number of patients who could be accommodated in existing verandahs.
Army Service Corps (Hon. E. Fitzgerald)
asked whether the Hon. E. Fitzgerald, described in the Army List as the unpaid private secretary of the Quartermaster-General, Is one and the same person as the Hon. E. C. G. S. Fitzgerald, described on a separate page of the Army List as a temporary captain; and, if so, what is the total remuneration now being drawn from Army funds by the officer in question?
This officer is paid as a temporary captain in the Army Service Corps and his emoluments as such amount to £370 a year. The first entry in the Army List is being corrected. It relates to a prior period when he was unpaid.
Commissions (Age Limit)
asked the age limit for candidates for commissions from the ranks; whether such age limit is strictly adhered to or waived in special circumstances; and, if so, the nature of such special circumstances?
For permanent commissions from the ranks there is no age limit; for temporary commissions the age limits are as stated in an explanatory Paper, of which I am sending the hon. and gallant Member a copy. Any special case would be considered on its merits. Perhaps if the hon. and gallant Member has a particular case in his mind he will send me the details.
Steel Helmets
asked the Under-secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the supply of steel helmets does not yet provide for every soldier whose duty takes him to the trenches; and how soon a sufficent number will be available?
I have acquainted myself with the state of the supply. I do not propose to inform this House or the enemy about it in detail, but I can assure the hon. and gallant Member that the active resumption of hostilities will not find the troops in the trenches unprovided in this respect.
Can the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that there has been no diminution in the supply, and that it is being kept up steadily?
Yes. The supply is, on the contrary, being accelerated.
New Military Medal
asked whether the award of the new Military Medal will be strictly confined to acts of bravery per formed by non-commissioned officers or men in action?
In the Royal Warrant instituting the new medal His Majesty announces his gracious intention of signifying his appreciation of acts not only of gallantry but also of devotion to duty.
Is the House to understand that the medal can be given to people who have never been in action at all?
Yes; I should say that it is meant both for gallantry and for work at the base.
Although the word "bravery" is used?
I do not remember the words, but I have quoted from the statement of His Majesty, "gallantry and devotion to duty."
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when I first raised this question the Prime Minister said "gallant conduct in the field"?
I cannot answer without notice.
Territorial Force
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether it is contemplated to alter the terms of service of members of the Territorial Force, and, if so, in what particular and by what means; whether this House will be afforded an opportunity of discussing any proposed change; and whether, in dealing with or making provision for the demobilisation of the men of the New Armies and the Territorial Force, respectively, he will ensure that no priority or advantage shall be given to the former at the expense of those who, as members of the Territorial Force, have always been ready to serve the country?
I think the point raised in the first part of the question is one which will be covered by the statement which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister referred to in the answer he gave on the 10th April to the hon. Member for the Blackpool Division. As regards the latter part of the question, it is, of course, impossible to forecast the military situation at the termination of the War. Obviously the geographical location of the operations in which different units are engaged may affect the order in which it is possible to demobilise them. I think it is quite premature to consider problems of demobilisation at the present moment, when everyone's effort should be, as it is, directed to the current conduct of the War.
Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the Territorials should not be the worse off, as far as situation is concerned, by reason of their being kept mobilised while the New Armies are demobilised?
I do not think that the hon. Gentleman has any right to assume that one class of the Army will be demobilised before the other.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the fact that by the Army Council Instruction No. 301, of 1916, dated 6th February, page 7, it was stated that members of the Territorial Force units who sign the Imperial obligation before 2nd March, 1916, will remain members of the Territorial Force and of the corps into which they enlisted and will retain their exising rank in that unit; whether he is aware that, in reliance on this instruction, many men, particularly in the Artists' Rifles, the Finsbury Rifles, the Post Office Rifles, the London Rifle-Brigade, and the Rangers, signed the Imperial obligation before the prescribed date; whether notwithstanding, by Army Council Instruction No. 552, dated 11th March, 1915, it is proposed to send these men into the firing line, without giving effect to the promise contained in the earlier Instruction, and with the provisional battalions to which they have been attached; and, if so, on what ground is the breach of this undertaking justified?
Men of the regiments named in the question have been attached, to battalions of the 60th Division, which is a London Division, and not alien in character to their regiments. They have not been transferred against their will, but the Army Council reserve the power of attachment. It is not proposed, as stated in the question, to send provisional battalions into the firing line, and the ground for the attachment complained of is urgent military necessity.
asked whether members of the Territorial Force who had signed the Imperial Service obligation before 2nd March, 1916, in reliance on Army Council Instruction No. 301, of 1916, dated 6th February, 1916, and the circular letter published to provisional battalions on or about 28th December last, are still retained in the 59th, 60th, and 61st provisional battalions notwithstanding their request to be transferred to their own or other units chosen by them; whether there have been a large number of protests based on Section 43 of the Army Act in consequence of the non-fulfilment of the promise made to these men, and whether the War Office have recently promulgated an order to the effect that no men or noncommissioned officers in the above-mentioned provisional battalions are to be transferred; and for what reason is the undertaking given to these men to be set aside in contravention of the Territorial Act, 1907, s. 3 (iv.)?
I can only reiterate that no men have been transferred against their will to any unit in the 59th, 60th, and 61st Division; but, as I have said, the Army Council must retain the power to attach men to any unit that may be necessary in the interests of the service and the country.
Will the power to attach men to units other than their own be used as sparingly as possible, and only for urgent military necessity?
Yes, Sir.
Questions
Customs Watchers
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that in many out-ports Customs watchers are called upon to perform similar duties to those imposed on preventive men; that in London and other large ports watchers take the place of preventive men when the latter are on leave or absent through sickness; and that in London watchers are regularly employed on book-keeping duties, both afloat and on the shore, and also on boating duties; and, as watchers were included in the special minute issued by the Board of Customs and Excise expressing their Honours' appreciation of the ability and zeal displayed by all grades in carrying out the important duties imposed on the Department and in view of the reasons stated for granting the War bonus to preventive men, will he now favourably consider the extension of this concession to the watchers?
The employment of watchers is confined to the duties proper to that grade. They are not, save in exceptional and occasional cases, called upon to perform even the peace time duties of the preventive men, and they have no share in those special duties imposed on the latter class in consequence of the War, for which the special temporary allowance has been given. As I informed the hon. Member on the 23rd ultimo, there is no case for an extension of this concession to the watchers.
Has the right hon. Gentleman recently received petitions showing that there is a certain amount of dissatisfaction among the watchers?
I believe that petitions have been received, but there is no reason for extending a bonus which is given to a particular class of men for performing certain services to other men who do not perform them.
National Insurance Staff
asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, whether he can state how many young men of military age, single and married, respectively, are engaged at the National Insurance office, Maida Vale Rink; and whether the work that these people are doing could be undertaken by women or older men?
I would ask the hon. Member to await the Return which was promised on the 16th ultimo in reply to a question by the hon. Baronet the Member for Wellington.
Will that Return, when published, give the details asked for in this question as to the number of such persons employed in the National Insurance office?
Yes, I believe so. There has been no delay on our part in supplying information.
Peace Negotiations
asked whether the German Chancellor expressed his readiness to enter into peace negotiations on the 9th December last; and whether His Majesty's Government declined to consider such a thing?
I must refer my hon. Friend to the speech I made on Monday at the dinner to the French Parliamentary delegates.
Venereal Diseases
asked the Prime Minister whether it is proposed this Session to give effect by administration and legislation to any of the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Venereal Diseases?
The Report is now under the consideration of the Departments concerned, and to-morrow my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board is receiving an important deputation on the subject. It is the intention of the Government to deal as expeditiously as possible with this matter.
Committee of Imperial Defence
asked the Prime Minister whether proposals made in the despatch of the Secretary of State for the Colonies of the 10th December, 1912, to the Dominions now holds good; and if the Dominions have since been asked to have a permanent representative nominated at all meetings of the Imperial Defence Committee?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative; with regard to the second, I must refer the hon. Member to the correspondence published in CD 7347, which shows the attitude of the Dominions on the question.
National Economy
asked the Prime Minister if he will take the necessary steps, on the grounds of national economy in labour and money, to suspend for the period of the War all Acts of Parliament, such as Section 112 of the Brunswick Square and Terrace Act of 1830,by which houses, square-railings, etc., have to be painted by a given date under penalty of £2 a week?
Any unnecessary expenditure is most undesirable at present, but it seems to me that each case must be judged on its merits, and I should hesitate to propose legislation of the character suggested.
Would it not be in the public interest if such Acts were suspended, under which municipal authorities are empowered to enforce the work to be done?
I am afraid I am not familiar with the provisions of the Acts referred to, but I am not prepared to propose legislation.
Ministry of Trade and Commerce
asked the Prime Minister, in view of the urgent and important matters connected with the trade and commerce of this country, of the Empire, and of our Allies, whether he will take early steps for rearranging the business at present dealt with by the Home Secretary, the President of the Board of Trade, and the President of the Local Government Board, with a view of creating, while the War is in progress, an adequate Ministry of Trade and Commerce?
No, Sir; I am not prepared to adopt this suggestion.
Allies' Economic Conference
asked the Prime Minister whether he will, on behalf of the Imperial Government, request that each of our Dominions be represented at the forthcoming commercial conference of the Allies in Paris?
I must refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave yesterday to the hon. Member for Devonport.
( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister whether any, and if so, what, steps are being taken by the Government to formulate a trade policy after the War?
A Committee of the Cabinet was appointed some time ago to deal generally with all questions of reconstruction—including those relating to commercial and industrial policy—which are likely to arise at the close of the War. The detailed investigation of particular aspects of the problem will be carried on by Sub-Committees, as to the most important of which we are in communication with the Dominions.
Secretary of State for War
asked the Prime Minister whether he is able to name a date for the promised discussion of the salary of the Secretary of State for War?
As the hon. Member will see from the statement which I shall make on the business of the House, our free time may be occupied next week by a discussion on recruiting. In these circumstances, I regret that I cannot promise a day before the House rises.
Will there be an early opportunity when the House meets after the Adjournment?
I hope so.
Enemy Aliens
Deportation from Prohibited Areas
asked the Prime Minister whether, in order to prevent the possibility of their giving information and assistance to enemy air raiders, His Majesty's Government will deport from prohibited areas all residents of enemy race, whether naturalised or not?
The attacks of hostile aircraft have not been confined to prohibited areas; but both in these areas and elsewhere there are ample powers for dealing with persons, whether aliens or not, whose presence is regarded as prejudicial to the public safety, and these powers have been so fully exercised that no danger from this cause is to be apprehended.
Questions
Minister of Blockade
asked the Prime Minister if the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs has executive authority as Minister of Blockade; and, if so, how that authority is derived, and if he is empowered to issue orders to officers of His Majesty's Fleet or to Custom House officials or to give directions to Prize Court officials?
With regard to the first two parts of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave him on the 6th instant; the answer to the third part of the question is in the negative
Infant Welfare
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he will issue instructions to local authorities that an expenditure not exceeding ½d. in the £ may be judiciously undertaken, even in war time, on promoting infant welfare and combating infant mortality; and whether the Government is prepared to supplement such expenditure when efficiently carried out on approved lines?
I have already encouraged local authorities to undertake work for the promotion of infant welfare, and Parliament has been asked to vote money for furthering their efforts. I do not think that anything would be gained by an instruction such as is suggested by the hon. Member.
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he will suggest to local authorities that health visitors should be as far as possible employed by local authorities in the proportion of not less than two for every 1,000 births; and whether he is making; provision for the 1,600 health visitors who are under such arrangements necessary to carry through a national policy of preserving infant life?
The suggestion is included in a memorandum which has been circulated to all the medical officers of health.
Westminster City Council (Tuberculosis Dispensary)
asked the President of the Local Government Board if he can give reasons why the Westminster City Council are embarking on the undertaking of establishing their own tuberculosis dispensary at the present time, when the Charing Cross and St. George's hospitals, are prepared to do the work for a much smaller sum, and are, as a matter of fact, now actually carrying on the work without any cost to the ratepayers?
I regret that the negotiations which had been in progress between the Westminster City Council and the authorities of Charing Cross and St. George's hospitals should have broken down, so that the council have temporarily at least to provide a tuberculosis dispensary of their own. I may add that the estimated cost of the scheme which provided for the establishment of dispensaries at the two hospitals was £1,355 per annum and that the present proposals of the council are estimated to cost £1,165 per anuum.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say why the negotiations broke down?
No, Sir; not without notice.
Irish Prisons Board
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether his attention has been called to the fact that the Irish Prisons Board, for the government of fourteen prisons and three minor prisons, almost all of which are half empty, is composed of three members, with a secretary and inspector, whose joint salaries amount to £3,504 per annum, and seventeen clerks with joint salaries of £4,319 per annum; and whether any steps will be taken to abolish or reduce the cost of those offices, and to devote part of the economies thus made to remedying the admitted grievances of the prison warders, who are now obliged to subsist on barely sufficient wages, owing to the war prices of all the necessaries of life?
As I informed the hon. Member for North Sligo on Tuesday last, Treasury sanction has now been obtained for an improvement in the pay of Irish prison warders. Since the outbreak of war the Prisons Board, of which the medical member is also Inspector of Reformatory and Industrial Schools, have dispensed with the services of an inspector and three clerks, and other savings are being effected by the reduction of prisons in number or in status.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say how soon the prison warders are likely to receive the increased wages which were promised nearly twelve months ago?
Their case is one that presses itself on me, and I will gladly do the best I can to secure the increase at the earliest possible moment.
National Health Insurance (Approved Societies)
asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, if he will state the number of approved societies under the National Insurance Act on 1st January, 1914, 1st January, 1915, and 1st January, 1916, respectively?
The figures for the United Kingdom on the dates named in the question were 2,326, 2,124, and 1,738 respectively.
Private Business
Swansea Harbour Bill [ Lords ]
Folkestone Gas Bill,
Reported, with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table.
Burnley Corporation Bill [ Lords ],
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Bill Presented
Output of Beer (Restriction) Bill,—"to put temporary restrictions on the Output of Beer," presented by Mr. RUNCIMAN; supported by Mr. Pretyman; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 23.]
Orders of the Day
Business of the House
Easter Recess
May I ask what the business will be for next week?
On Monday we shall take the Report stage of the Finance Bill and, if time permit, the Report of the outstanding Ways and Means Resolutions.
On Tuesday, the Third Reading of the Finance Bill.
On Tuesday I shall make a statement about the recruiting question, and, if the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin (Sir E. Carson) and his Friends desire to discuss it, we shall give Wednesday for that discussion.
I hope the House will rise on Wednesday for the Easter holiday.
When will the Motion for the Adjournment take place?
I will consider that.
Surely the right hon. Gentleman is going to give us a day for discussion on the Motion for the Adjournment?
I will consider the matter.
Why not say now?
Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us on what day the House will meet after the Easter Adjournment?
I would rather not say at this moment. I will say early next week.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on the last Adjournment Motion the discussion took over eight hours, and would it not be fair that a similar opportunity be given on this occasion?
I am the last person who desires to avoid discussion on the Motion for Adjournment, but the precise moment which is the most convenient to give I cannot state now.
May I ask whether we are to understand if the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Dublin University (Sir E. Carson) desires a day, say, on Wednesday, that he will be disposed to grant a day for the Adjournment on Thursday?
If opinion shapes in that direction we may take the Motion for the Adjournment on Tuesday.
Ordered, "That the other Government Business have precedence this day of the Business of Supply."—[ The Prime Minister. ]
Finance (New Duties) Bill
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 7.—(Supplemental Provisions as to Table-water and Cider Duties.)
(1) Table-water and Cider Duties shall be denoted by, and collected by means of, labels to be provided by or on behalf of the Commissioners, and the duty shall be charged separately on the quantity contained in a separate bottle.
In computing the amount of duty payable at the rate of fourpence, any fraction of a farthing shall be reckoned as a farthing, and in computing the amount of duty payable at the rate of eightpence, any fraction of a halfpenny shall be reckoned as a halfpenny.
(2) The Commissioners may make regulations for securing the payment of Table-water and Cider Duties, and generally for carrying into effect the provisions of this Act as to Table-water and Cider Duties, and in particular as to the use of labels and the method in which labels are to be affixed to bottles containing table waters or cider liable to duty, and for the registration or licensing of premises where table waters or cider liable to duty, are made or sold; and the Commissioners may by those Regulations provide for any exemption required for the purpose of facilitating the bottling and rebottling of any table waters or cider, or for the purpose of relieving from duty any table waters or cider intended for exportation or ships' stores.
If any person acts in contravention of or fails to comply with any such Regulation, the article in respect of which the offence is committed shall be forfeited, and the person committing the offence shall be liable in respect of each offence to an Excise penalty of fifty pounds.
(3) Any officer of the Commissioners authorised by them for the purpose may at any reasonable times enter any premises or place in which any table waters or cider liable to duty are made, prepared, sold, or kept for sale with a view to seeing whether the provisions of this Act as to Table-water and Cider Duties, or any Regulations made in pursuance of those provisions, are being complied with.
If any person prevents or obstructs the entry of any officer so appointed he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds.
(4) If any question arises in any proceeding for any forfeiture, or for a penalty under the provisions of this Act relating to Table-water or Cider Duties, or any Regulations made in pursuance of those provisions, whether any label has been previously used, proof that the label has not been previously used shall lie upon the defendant.
(5) The provisions of this Act as to Table-water and Cider Duties shall be construed as if any reference to bottles included a reference to casks or other corked or closed receptacles, and shall apply to the supply of table waters and cider in a club or by a club to the members thereof as they apply to the sale of table waters and cider.
I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (1).
The Committee will remember that when we adjourned last night it was agreed, generally agreed I take it, that this tax upon table waters ought to be imposed, but there was considerable difference of opinion as to the machinery, and it was very earnestly represented from all quarters that a stamp duty imposed upon the bottle was very difficult of application. It was agreed that manufacturers of table waters would be good enough to come to the Treasury this morning and give us the benefit of their advice as to the best means of obtaining the revenue which we desire from this tax at the rate agreed upon in Clause 5. I met the deputation this morning, which represented, as they claimed, and as I believe, something like 95 per cent. of the whole trade, and as a consequence I desire to suggest to the Committee modifications not in the tax but in the machinery of collecting it. It must be quite obvious that in the imposition of a new tax of this kind, when, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer said yesterday, we desire that the tax should be paid by the consumer, and we are using those in the trade as the collectors on our behalf, that we ought to try and find a system which will produce the biggest revenue, and will at the same time create the least possible disturbance of trade interests. There is no doubt in my mind that under normal conditions, and as a general principle with reference to any particular trade, the collection of a tax of this kind by a stamp is the way which ensures the least possible means of escape and greater certainty of the collection of the tax. But it was represented to us once again this morning, with a cogency which I felt it to be impossible to resist, that when you are dealing with a trade which depends for its success on the rapidity of handling very low-priced goods, and when you are dealing with that trade at a moment when labour is not only scarce but when you desire to use labour in the most profitable manner possible, and to use no labour where you can avoid it, and further when you are dealing with a trade of that kind where it is difficult for all to lock up large sums for long periods, the method of collecting this duty by stamps is not the best, at any rate the best temporary, method of doing so. It would mean the employment of a considerable amount of labour; it would mean the outlay of large sums on the purchase of the stamps which might not be reobtained from the consumer in some cases for weeks or months. It would mean supervision of the labour which was employed in putting on the stamps, for I would say I was not convinced of the mechanical impossibility, as the large makers of cheap mineral waters do put labels over the necks of the bottles now. But it is one thing to entrust young boys and girls with labels which are worth a few pence per 100 or per 1,000 and another thing to entrust the same people, without supervision, with labels which bear ¼d., ½d., or 1d. stamps upon them and which must not be lost or damaged. Therefore, I would suggest a modification of the plan and the abolition of the stamp, but I would suggest that to the Committee not as a permanent but only as a temporary method.
The attitude that the manufacturers of mineral waters took this morning was a very proper one. In the first place, they assured the Government that they did not dispute the justice or equity of the tax, and that they were prepared to give us every assistance to collect it. Then they proceeded to ask that we should delay the imposition of the tax until we had set ourselves to devise the best possible permanent machinery, having regard to the scarcity of labour and the difficulties in the trade. To that request I told them that I was not prepared to ask the Committee of the House of Commons to agree. We might not get a Bill containing the modified provisions through before the end of July; we might lose something like half a year's revenue; and, although there are undoubtedly practical difficulties in the way of forestalment, we might risk forestalment if a long period of notice were given of the future imposition of a particular tax. So I suggested that we should accept the offers which had been made to the Government on behalf of the traders in certain directions. I said that we would accept, with small modifications, their alternative method of collection as a temporary expedient, that we should proceed to apply that method of collection at once, and that we should accept their offer of the appointment of an expert committee from among themselves to confer with the Government as to the best permanent machinery. Then if the permanent machinery differs from this temporary machinery, we can proceed to amend it.
I want to explain to the Committee that there is no difference as to the amount of the tax or as to its yield. It is purely a question of the method of collection. I need hardly say that what I said about mineral waters applies also to cider. I put in that observation at the right moment, because I see great activity on the part of certain Members opposite. The alternative proposal is to collect a tax at the same rate per gallon—8d. and 4d.—upon the certified output of the manufacturers. The Committee will observe the objections to that method. It is not like the question of matches, where you are dealing with a number of factories that you can count on the fingers of one or two hands. There are 3,000 large, well-established mineral water firms, and any number of smaller firms. I think it will be a matter of some difficulty to make sure that we get correct certified returns of the output of all these factories, but the advantage of the situation is that we shall have the good will of the trade as a whole, and we shall rely upon information given by those who pay to help us in detecting those who, by subtlety and dishonesty—a very small minority—may hope to escape payment. The method will be that a daily account shall be kept, as is already kept in various factories under certain Acts. Government forms will be issued to these firms, on which they will give a periodical return of their output, and upon that the tax will be collected. In order to give time for the making of the new arrangements necessitated by this change, it will be moved on Report that the duty shall be charged as from 1st May instead of from the passing of the Bill.
If the Committee assents to this temporary arrangement for the collection of the tax, I should like to indicate the Amendments which I shall propose in the Clause under discussion. They are not many, and I do not think they are complicated. It will necessitate the omission of Sub-section (1). Then in Subsection (2) I shall move to leave out the words "as to the use of labels and the method in which labels are to be affixed to bottles containing table waters or cider liable to duty," and to substitute the words "for requiring and verifying the particulars of output." Then after the words "where table waters or cider liable to duty are made or sold," I shall move to insert the words "and for the charging of a duty on a licence in the case of persons using a machine or mechanical contrivance for making aerated water of any description." That is a method of making a man who wishes to make soda water take out a licence. The charge will be a nominal one, but it will be necessary to know where soda water is being made, in order that you may require a return of the output. Sub-section (4) will disappear, as being of no importance now, and the whole of Clause 8 will be left out of the Bill. We shall then proceed on this fairly satisfactory and next best method of collecting the tax with the good will of the trade, and we shall proceed with their co-operation before the next Finance Bill comes forward for discussion, to try to find if there is any better method that can be adopted.
The right hon. Gentleman has stated that he proposes as the outcome of an interview with the representatives of this trade an entire change in the proposals of the Bill. Did the proposals put forward go further in disturbing the original basis of the tax so as to include proposals from these companies of a licence for vendors themselves? The Committee ought to be in possession of any such other arrangements that may have been made before the whole thing is upset.
I am not trying to conceal anything from the Committee. I do not remember any proposal of the kind. It is not altering the whole basis of the tax; it is merely a change in machinery.
4.0 P.M.
The statement just made by the Secretary to the Treasury puts the matter in a much more satisfactory position than it was in yesterday. The right hon. Gentleman granted to-day an interview to representatives of the trade as a whole. I was present at that deputation, and I think one can say that the manner in which the right hon. Gentleman considered the case put forward by the trade created the most favourable impression. He himself has scored a considerable triumph in this fact, that he now comes forward with this tax, not with a sullen and resentful trade, but with a trade which is willing to co-operate with him to the utmost degree in making the tax effective and in adjusting the machinery of their business to the adequate and full collection of the tax. From the point of view of those who are engaged in the trade the most valuable concession and change he has made has been the complete withdrawal of the machinery for collecting this tax by means of stamps. The tax itself has not been affected. It remains, as stated in the Clause already, at 4d. per gallon for sweetened and 8d. per gallon for unsweetened liquids. Under the present proposal of the right hon. Gentleman it will now be collected, not by means of a stamp upon the bottle, but by means of an impost upon the certified output, measured in gallons, of each firm. The abolition of the stamp has created great satisfaction. It was regarded as completely unworkable by the trade—not as being absolutely impossible, but in the sense of causing such an enormous disturbance in the businesses involved, and such alterations in the method of conducting those businesses, that it would have involved an expense in itself almost equal to the value of the stamp. The proposal to collect by means of a tax upon the output as measured in gallons does not command approval from the majority of the trade. There are very serious objections to it. The trade would prefer that the tax should be collected, not in proportion to quantity, but in proportion to value. They would prefer an ad valorem tax to one measured in quantity.
They cannot get it.
I refer to the trade as a whole—that is, to the majority of the trade. The statement which the right hon. Gentleman has made, and which has induced them willingly to co-operate in the working of this tax, is the promise that the present proposal will not be regarded as a final solution of the matter, and that in the next few months before the last portion of the Budget is fixed, and while there is yet time to introduce a new scheme—if it is thought desirable—the right hon. Gentleman will consider the question of machinery fully and in detail with the deputation, or committee appointed by the trade, in which the point of view of the trade as a whole, and not the point of view of one or two firms, will be fully and adequately put before the officials of the Treasury. It is the fact that they will have that opportunity of discussing this question fully and freely with the Treasury in the course of the next month or two which has eased their minds, and has induced them to adopt the friendly attitude which they have adopted towards the proposals in the Finance Bill.
I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman upon his statement. I am sure he is animated only by a desire to get the maximum of revenue with a minimum of inconvenience to the trade concerned. I am not an authority at all upon the manufacture of mineral waters, but I do know something about the making of cider. I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman as to how his new proposals will affect the cider manufacturers? As I understand it he proposes that every manufacturer shall take out a licence. Does that mean that every farmer, who probably produces a small amount of cider, shall take out a licence in the coming year so that he may be able to manufacture cider for the consumption of his labourers and for his own household? More than that, how will the new proposals of the right hon. Gentleman affect, or be applied to, the case of the small manufacturers of cider? He has stated that there will be a duty on the certified output of every manufacturer. That, as I understand it, is how it works out in the Clause. If this is a duty on the certified output of every manufacturer, it must include the small farmers who manufacture cider.
For sale!
Then how is it going to be collected? Let me put this point: The small farmer sells, possibly to the big merchant. The big merchant is the man of standing, who, of course, is the man who really—I do not say makes profits, but who sells the cider, which is generally used as a table water, and generally used in well-to-do establishments, such as the bar of this House, and elsewhere. Is the right hon. Gentleman going to collect this duty from the small manufacturer of cider, or to collect it from the manufacturer who supplies it to the small towns, and restaurants, and suchlike, who, I may add, charge considerable prices? I do not rise in the slightest degree to oppose the suggestions of the right hon. Gentleman; they are made generally, I think, with the idea of obviating inconvenience; but I do ask him to give us some information as to how this new proposal will affect the small cider manufacturers of this country, the men who make cider for the consumption of themselves and the labourers, and possibly, as in the case I brought up last night, their neighbours; also as to whether, firstly, they will have to take out a licence before they make any cider, and, secondly, whether the duty on the certified output means a duty particularly on the small manufacturers and not upon the large merchants who sell the cider?
It is not proposed to make the farmer take out a licence.
Not when he sells?
There is to be no duty at all on cider unless the cider is sold to a consumer—if the cider is sold to a dealer under the Regulations which we propose to make as dealt with by one of the Amendments on the Paper. If the farmer sells to the dealer any cider he pays no duty; we shall collect it from the dealer. If a farmer manufactures cider for home consumption no duty either is charged upon that cider, so that the farmer is not concerned about the matter, except in the rare cases in which he sells the product to the consumer of the cider. In that case he will have to take out a licence and record his output.
Assuming that the farmer supplies his labourers with cider, will be that home consumption?
In lieu of wages?
That is home consumption. I may just add, on the question of cider, that it is another of those subjects which has arisen in the course of these Debates which is a matter of the greatest possible expert knowledge, and expert knowledge which is very different in the different counties. The right hon. Gentleman who sits opposite knows more about some cider than my right hon. Friend who sits below the Gangway. It is a question of different ciders in different counties. My right hon. Friend who sits below the Gangway on the other side is going to give us the benefit of his cider advice in exactly the same way as we had the soda water advice this morning. We shall be very glad to get the assistance of anyone who knows anything on the subject, but I think it is all a matter of regulation. There is no question of the alteration of the duty, and no suggestion of any alteration in the rate. We are there both at one. We want the tax. We do not want to tax the farmer, nor the cider consumed at home, or on the farm.
The Committee was last night given a certain number of facts which indicated that there would be difficulty in collecting this tax in the manner prescribed by Clause 7. The Committee, I think, will see now that they were justified in not proceeding with this Clause last night, if for no other reason than from the fact that they have listened to a speech from the right hon. Gentleman himself—a forceful speech—pointing out the difficulty which the trade and others suggested to the scheme as proposed in the Bill by the Government. The deputation will, I am sure, be proud that the right hon. Gentleman himself has this afternoon made so effective a spokesman of their case as to the impossibility of collecting the tax by means of the labels. I had the privilege of being with the deputation. I can assure the Committee that if they had heard the statements made by the trade they would have come to the conclusion that the right hon. Gentleman could have taken no other decision than that which he has taken. It was pointed out by one firm alone that in the season they turned out as many as 200,000 bottles per day. That is the firm that it was stated was dealing with 110,000,000. When dealing with over 200,000 separate bottles daily, the difficulty of dealing with stamps was shown to be almost insuperable. The right hon. Gentleman has now abandoned the stamps—
Temporarily!
I do not want to make any point about that. I do not think we need quarrel at all on that point. The right hon. Gentleman for the moment has abandoned the stamps. I agree that it is for the trade, if they can do so, to show the right hon. Gentleman that the abandonment must be permanent. I should think that after to-day's experience they will have very little difficulty in doing that. Be that as it may, however, the present temporary method is to raise the duty on the gallon, and to get it by ascertaining the amount which is sent out from the factory, rather than by going amongst all these millions of bottles, and collecting the duty by means of small stamps. The hon. Member below me indicated that there was some difference of opinion amongst the trade as to whether the sums should be collected on the gallonage or the barrelage. He said that the greater proportion of the trade preferred that the tax should be collected by means of a tax on the barrel. For the moment, however, the right hon. Gentleman has decided to adopt the gallonage method. I understand that if, during the negotiations which are to take place before the next Finance Bill, he can be satisfied that the correct way to collect it is upon value, and not upon gallonage, he is not wedded to the gallonage method. The other great advantage to the revenue which I do not think the right hon. Gentleman dealt with in his speech just now is this. As the Bill stood before, the collection by stamp meant that you could only collect the duty when you had got the beverage in a bottle, and therefore there was a Clause—Clause 8—to provide that a licence should be paid for a mechanical contrivance, and last night instances were given of the way in which an unlimited supply of aerated water might be provided in that way merely by paying a more or less nominal sum of five guineas for the use of the machine. That was not only a leakage of soda water but an enormous leakage of revenue, and it also provided a most unfair means of competition with those who supply their beverage in bottles. The right hon. Gentleman's method now enables the user of a soda fount or an automatic machine for supplying aerated waters to be taxed not on his machine but on his output, and that obviously is fair from everybody's point of view. In some cases a person might not have used enough to pay the five guineas licence, but under the new system he would only have to pay a small licence and then pay upon the soda water which he supplies. Then, of course, five guineas would be a ridiculous amount to pay on an enormous output, but under the new system which the right hon. Gentleman is now putting forward you will be able to reach that. That, I submit, must commend itself to the Committee.
I should like, on behalf of the trade who visited the right hon. Gentleman this morning, to say that I do not think it would be possible for any industry to be more fully represented than that was. The right hon. Gentleman said that it represented those who dealt with at least 95 per cent. of the output. It seems a strong thing to say, but, if anything, that is an underestimate. All the unions of the bigger makers and the unions of the smaller makers were represented, and, although they did ask that there should be a temporary postponement, and that the matter should be dealt with in the new Bill, they felt the force of the right hon. Gentleman's argument that he could not delay the matter for possibly six months, and he has now the advantage of being able to use as the collectors of his tax those who admit freely that the tax ought to be collected, that they are the only people who can collect it for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and they will be willing to collect it on these terms, assuring him that he will get his £2,000,000 for which he has Budgeted, and relying upon his meeting, as he has undertaken to meet, an expert committee of the trade, so that the Government and themselves may together devise a scheme which will put the matter on a satisfactory basis, both from their point of view and from the point of view of the revenue. I do think that if we are going to have new taxes in the future, unless the difficulty of fore-stalment is insuperable, this shows how wise the Government would be in consulting those who have to collect the tax for them to devise the best way of doing it. The Government in its next Finance Bill may be attempting to tax some new commodity of which they cannot expect their officials to have intimate knowledge, and I do hope that what has happened in regard to this Bill in connection with the two taxes will lead to it being adopted as a rule, and, unless forestalment is an insuperable difficulty, they might approach the trade through responsible representatives with a view of seeing what is the best way of collecting the tax. The Government has a responsibility to the consumer, and I am satisfied that by consulting those who have got to pay the tax neither interest will suffer. I would like to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the solution he has arrived at, and to thank him for the consideration which he gave the trade at their deputation to him this morning.
I wish to approach this question in the same spirit as the right hon. Gentleman has shown, and to join with him in trying to find the least irksome way of collecting these new duties. It is difficult to see at once the effect of this entirely new method proposed to-day, but the main objection I see is that the farmers will be almost perforce driven to sell to the dealers. The farmer has a great dislike of all the intricacies of making returns for the purposes of duty. Of course, he is relieved of all that when he sells to a dealer. A great deal of direct trade goes on between the farmer and manufacturer and the consumer, and if by any means the right hon. Gentleman can discover a method by which the farmer can continue to sell direct to the consumer without any great complication of dealing with the Excise officer, it will be, a great advantage. But, on the whole, I think he is to be congratulated on this change, and I sincerely hope it will tend to a less irksome way of raising the tax.
I, too, wish to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on doing away with the stamp, but I would like to ask him one or two questions. He spoke just now of daily returns. Does that mean that the manufacturers—some 3,000 big ones, and numerous small ones, who have not always been in the habit of keeping books—are to supply daily returns through the post? That would mean a tremendous postal business, which I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider. Moreover, it would be a very onerous work for the Post Office. I imagine it is the case that clubs and canteens will have to take out licences, because they have mineral water machinery in many clubs and in many canteens. There is another point which I desire to raise. I am not familiar with these things, and have never drunk them in my life, but there are things called gazogenes and American soda fountains. These will undoubtedly increase, and there will be a loss of revenue as a result. Do the Government propose to force people who sell those things to take out a licence for each one sold?
There is only one point, I think, the right hon. Gentleman has not made quite clear in dealing with the farmer who manufactures cider. As he is probably aware, in the Southwestern counties especially there is a custom among large farmers of manufacturing cider not only for domestic consumption and their labourers, but many manufacture cider and sell it to other farmers for their labourers. I did not quite gather from the right hon. Gentleman's statement whether a sale of that kind to a neighbouring farmer for that farmer's labourers is to go on untaxed. It is, of course, a genuine sale, but I rather gathered from the right hon. Gentleman's remarks that a farmer would escape taxation in that case. I only want to have the point quite clear.
I only rise now to ask a couple of questions. One of the difficulties that has occurred to me with regard to this tax concerns dairies where certain fizzy drinks are sold. In such cases will those drinks be taxed, and how will the tax be levied? Will these people have to take out a licence? Again, if any fizzy drink is sold at a grocer's establishment, will a return have to be given? In London there are, I believe, chemists who sell a great many drinks which I do not know can be described as medicines, but are more in the nature of fizzy drinks. Are these aerated waters? If the chemist can do anything in the way of supplying these drinks free from tax, of course, his business will extend very greatly. In dealing with a broad subject like this I am quite sure my right hon Friend has thought out all those difficulties. There have been cases where an imposition of a tax has immediately caused a revolution in the method of distribution, and so it may be here. I used to make a little drink myself with an acid and water, and that made quite as fizzy a drink as any. Will such drinks be taxed, or will it be possible in dairies, grocers' shops, and especially chemists' shops, to supply this in any quantity without any tax?
I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on having apparently brought a large number of new trades under the Excise harrow without any serious difficulty, and apparently with very good will on their own part. I myself have lived under that harrow all my life. The greatest trouble is not the question of the tax but the difficulty that occasionally arises from the necessity of preserving the revenue in putting restrictions on the manufacturers. I rise not to say anything about the dairy drinks, but, at any rate, so far as I know, there was no revolution in the distribution of beer after the last duty. I do not think anything else happened except that there was a considerable difference in the price, and a large reduction in consumption, and that is certain to be the case also as the result of this tax. I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman, are these drinks which are now to be taxed—practically in the case of soda water to the same extent as beer, because 8d. per gallon on soda water is equal to the standard duty on beer—are these to become excisable liquors in the same way as beer is? For the sale of cider a licence is required, but no licence is now necessary to sell soda water or lemonade, and, so far as I can see, it will not be possible to maintain the absurd difference which now exists between the two. Light beers and drinks of that kind can only be sold at certain hours, whereas lemonade and beverages of that sort may be sold at any place at all time. That is a question which the right hon. Gentleman will have to consider. He is up against it, and I doubt very much whether he has had it present to his mind. Cider is really much stronger than beer. It contains more proof spirit, and it is quite absurd that it should escape taxation when beer is so heavily taxed. The right hon. Gentleman will have to see that the law is so amended that the same facilities are given for the sale of very light beers as are given for the sale of ginger beer.
I think this is a speech we escaped last night. We are not now dealing with the merits of the duty. We are dealing with the question of collecting it.
But when we are taxing an article, are we not entitled to ask whether that article is to become an excisable liquor?
The hon. Member is perfectly right in asking that question when the subject of taxing an article is under consideration, but we agreed to tax it last night, and we are now only dealing with the machinery for collecting it.
I am afraid I am rather stupid, but I confess I cannot quite understand the explanations given by the right hon. Gentleman with regard to cider. I gather it is now proposed to have two licences for cider: one applying to the seller in case he does not sell to a dealer, in which case the duty falls on the seller, and the other case where the licence has to be taken out by the dealer. This includes the publican or retailer, and in that case the licence will have to be held by the dealer and not by the seller. It seems rather complicated, but I understand that that is what the right hon. Gentleman has in mind. He intends there shall be two forms of licence, one issued to the seller in certain circumstances and the other issued to the buyer. I want to ask if there is not at present a licence duty required by the retailer of cider?
Yes, there is.
Then does this new proposal clash in any way with Clause 5, Sub-section (2), which deals with the taxation of table waters, and does not include cider, which is a liquor for the sale of which an Excise licence is required? Are we not going to create some little complication there? These are the only questions I would like to ask at this point, and I put them in order that I may save time when I am dealing with my Amendment.
As I indicated, an Excise licence is required for the sale of cider, but not of table waters. Cider will not be subject to the Table Water Duty, but will be subject to the Cider Duty?
Are daily returns to be made through the post?
No. The returns are to be kept daily. There is an Excise officer very handy, who will make every arrangement he can to avoid giving unnecessary trouble. In reply to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Islington (Mr. Lough), I have to say there will be no duty charged on the drinks to which he has referred if they are not drawn from machines; they will only be liable to duty if kept in bottle.
Does the same answer apply to clubs and canteens?
Yes.
Question, "That the word proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and agreed to.
I beg to move, in Subsection (2), to leave out the words "as to the use of labels and the method in which labels are to be affixed to bottles containing table waters or cider liable to duty," and to insert instead thereof the words "for requiring and verifying particulars of output."
When the particulars herein provided for are supplied, the duty can, of course, be ascertained.
If the farmer sells a little cider, is he expected to give all these particulars and vouchers? It will involve a lot of trouble.
The Clause provides that the Commissioners may make Regulations, but those Regulations will not necessarily be made to apply to every farmer or dairy.
It seems to me that in this matter we ought to know nobody but the cider manufacturers. I cannot at all see why, if a farmer chooses to make and sell cider, it should not be right to ask him to comply with the conditions which are imposed upon other makers of cider. If a person makes other brewed articles which come within this Bill he will be liable to this provision, and I cannot help feeling that farmers who make cider should be put on the same footing as other manufacturers of cider. There is also to be borne in mind the case of people who make herb beer. They might say that this is very irksome, but surely, if a manufacturer makes an article which is liable to duty, and it is necessary for the purpose of checking it that certain restrictions should be laid down, there is no reason why farmers should be exempted from those restrictions more than anyone else.
There may be no reason, but there is a precedent set in the case of private brewers, so that this proposal is not unusual.
The hon. Member for Stepney says he can see no reason for differential treatment between a man making cider and a man who makes herb beer.
What I said was that there should be no difference made between makers of cider, because one of them happens to be a farmer and the other is not.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, in the same Sub-section, to leave out the words "or cider" ["where table waters or cider"].
The Clause has been altered a good deal since I first put down my Amendment. I think it still reads accurately, but if it does not, it is not my fault. It is the fault of the Amendments that have since been made. I have good reasons to suppose that the Government will accept this Amendment, because it carries out practically what the right hon. Gentleman said last night, and what he has said to-day, namely, that he has not the faintest intention of putting a new form of taxation on the farmer, if he sells his product for private consumption. My Amendment reads that the Commissioners may register or licence "premises where table waters liable to duty are made or sold," and it will go on "other than premises on farms or small holdings where cider or perry is made solely for home consumption or for sale by wholesale." I admit that the word "wholesale"—
I must understand what the hon. Member is moving. I thought he was proposing to move merely to leave out the words "or cider."
That is exactly what I am doing, but I am explaining what will be the necessary effect of it.
Is this quite in order? If this Amendment is carried will it not prohibit licences for cider? It is quite inconsistent with the other Amendment of the hon. Member, and it seems to me that one is simply an alternative to the other.
No, Sir. I should like to put that matter right. If the hon. Gentleman will look at the Amendment a little more attentively he will see that it was necessary to cut out the words "or cider" in the first part in order to make the exception in the second part. I have been rather unfortunate, both last night and to-day, in incurring the opposition of the hon. Member. I do not know which, but he seems to be extremely critical, and his criticisms have not in many cases been well founded. The point of this Amendment is exactly what has been proposed by the right hon. Gentleman, and that is to make it unnecessary for the Commissioners to licence premises of particular farmers or small holdings where cider or perry is made, solely for home consumption, or for sale by wholesale. By "wholesale" I think the right hon. Gentleman and myself mean really the same thing. We mean sale to licensed buyers, and if the right hon. Gentleman would substitute for the word "wholesale" the words "licensed buyers," then I think my Amendment would exactly cover all that he said yesterday and all that he has said to-day. There could be no possible object under the right hon. Gentleman's scheme in licensing or registering a firm where no tax is levied, and where no tax can be levied, if the cider is for home consumption or for sale to these licensed dealers. Therefore, I do hope that the right hon. Gentleman on consideration will see his way to accept this Amendment.
I think I shall sooner or later be able to convince the hon. Member that his words are totally unnecessary and would go very far to make the Bill unintelligible. He is talking of something which under Sub-section (2) of Clause 7 you may not do to cider which is sold for home consumption, but in Clause 6 you have already said that you are not going to charge any duty at all on cider unless it is sold or kept for sale. Therefore, the cider for home consumption is right out of the scope of the Bill. There is no necessity to talk about it or to deal with it or to prevent the Customs and Excise making Regulations about it. They do not want to do so.
Or to register it?
Or to register it. They do not want to do anything of the kind. All my hon. Friend really wants is to accept my Amendment lower down on the Paper about exempting cider which is sold to a dealer. If he accepts that, he gets everything that he wants, and if I cannot convince him of that between now and the Report stage let us have another Debate upon it then, but I think that I can.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendments made: In Sub-section (2), after the word "sold," insert the words "and for the charge of a duty on the licence in the case of persons using a machine or mechanical contrivance for making aerated water of any description."
After the word "cider" ["the bottling and rebottling of any table waters or cider"], insert the words "or the sale of any table waters or cider to dealers."—[ Mr. Montagu. ]
I beg to move, in Subsection (2), to leave out the words "an Excise penalty of" in order to insert instead thereof the words "a fine not exceeding."
I move this Amendment in order to get an explanation from the right hon. Gentleman of this rather drastic penalty. It is £50 or nothing, and it has regard to certain Excise Regulations which have not yet been framed and the bearing of which we do not know. Surely it is not desirable to make £50 the only penalty. Would it not be better to say "not exceeding £50"?
The proposal of my hon. and gallant Friend is to insert, instead of the words "an Excise penalty of £50," the words "a fine not exceeding £50." The effect of the Amendment would not be to benefit the person concerned in this matter. An Excise penalty is recoverable in a Court of Summary Jurisdiction just like a fine. It may be mitigated by the Court, and it has the further advantage that it can be mitigated by the Customs after it has been imposed. It is better from that point of view to have the penalty than the fine. It is in all the Licensing Acts, and we are merely putting this Act on the same footing as all those other Acts which deal with similar matters. People understand them, and they would not like to be subject to a fine, which is more or less a criminal matter. I think when I tell my hon and gallant Friend that the penalty is subject to mitigation just as much as the fine it will meet his objection.
The right hon. Gentleman has only dealt with one portion of the case raised by my hon. and gallant Friend, and that is whether it is preferable to have an Excise penalty or a fine. I would ask whether it is just or reasonable to impose a fixed fine of £50 no matter what the circumstances may be? This is the wording of the Bill. It is a fixed fine of £50. I have taken very careful advice on this matter, and the Bill as it stands imposes a fixed line of £50. The right hon. Gentleman himself a few moments ago said that it had always been open to the Customs to mitigate a fine, but when a person is brought up in a Court of Law we want to trust either the magistrate or the judge to fix the exact amount of the fine, and not leave him to the tender mercies of Customs officers. The Government itself does not follow this principle of a fixed fine, because when dealing with the obstruction of an officer in the performance of his duty they provide for a fine not exceeding £20. I raised this same point last night in connection with the duty on entertainments, and the right hon. Gentleman then promised that he would take advice and determine whether it would not be advisable for the words "not exceeding" to be included in that case as in this. I do hope that the Committee will not pass this matter over unless they are satisfied and clearly understand that this fixed penalty of £50 cannot be imposed for every trivial offence. Under another Clause in this Bill a child who passes through a turnstile the machinery of which does not work properly, is liable to a penalty of £50. I understand from authorities which I believe the right hon. Gentleman himself would very greatly respect that it is desirable in these Bills that words should be put in clearly defining what is meant. Does the Government mean that for every trivial offence a fixed penalty of £50 has to be paid? If so, the Clause will have to remain as it is; but it is extremely unjust. If they mean that it is only a maximum penalty, then let them put in words to make it perfectly clear to any magistrate or judge throughout the country.
I think the Solicitor-General ought to accept this Amendment, because lower down on the Paper the penalty for obstructing any officer who goes to inspect any of these places is to be a fine not exceeding £20. I have had several letters about the imposition of this tax, and the manufacturers are very much alarmed. They certainly regard this penalty of £50 as the actual penalty for any offence. There is, of course, the point that if an Excise officer takes them to the Court they are "liable" in respect of each offence to a penalty of £50, and the magistrates are advised by their clerks; but still I think it would be better to put in the words "not exceeding £50." They would then have an oppor- tunity of imposing a penalty proportionate to the offence. There is substance in this Amendment, and I hope the Solicitor-General, in the interests of these people—many of whom are poor people—wilt accept it.
I thought that I had explained myself fully, but it seems that I did not. If the Bill stands as it is, there is no fixed penalty of £50.
It says so.
It says so in very many other Acts which have been construed with some authority in the sense that I have indicated. If my hon. Friend will ask his friend who advised him, he will find that under the Summary Jurisdiction Act a penalty, like a fine, may be mitigated. A lower sum may be imposed or exacted in every case, and anyone who speaks to the contrary is absolutely mistaken.
Is it not the fact that in those cases the words "not exceeding" are exhibited in the Schedule?
That is not so; but whether you have these words or not the penalty can be mitigated. This is the common phrase in the licensing and other Acts, and there is really no need to depart from it. The Amendment would put in the place of a penalty a fine which is somewhat of a criminal punishment, and that we do not want. We prefer to keep the word "penalty."
What is the objection to saying "a penalty not exceeding £50?"
I think there is strong objection to it. As the matter stands, everyone who administers these Acts knows that you can mitigate an Excise penalty, but if you were to insert the words "not exceeding" then many of the Courts, in regard to all other Excise penalties, would read it that you could not mitigate them, because in this Bill where Parliament intended it to be mitigated it had said so. You cannot insert words suggesting that in this case you can mitigate the penalty, when in all other Acts of Parliament dealing with-Excise matters the words "not exceeding" are not used. You would be drawing a distinction when, as a matter of fact, the penalty in all cases can be mitigated. It would be a very dangerous thing to put the words in this Bill.
5.0 P.M.
What objection is there in going to the Court to get the penalty mitigated? I have no doubt the meaning is as the right hon. and learned Gentleman has explained, but certainly the ordinary farmer who, perhaps, for a number of years has not sold cider, and then he sells it, and does not go and ask for a licence, is liable to this penalty. Of course, the farmer will not have the advantage of hearing the Solicitor-General's explanation. He will probably read the Act, and read this as the only penalty.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (4).
Question, "That Sub-section (4) stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
In proposing this tax may I point out to the right hon. Gentleman that he is only taxing a small part of the cider consumed in this country. I do not press him to go further than he has gone, but I think it is worth while pointing out what the effect will be in country villages where, perhaps, there is one small licensed house which is licensed to sell cider. In the county of Somerset, owing to the scarcity of agricultural labour, they are very naturally putting a good deal of pressure on farmers to increase their supplies of cider. As you now tax cider for the first time, and you only tax that portion which is sold, and consider that all cider produced on the farm and consumed by the farm labourers is for home consumption, the effect will be to very much diminish the sale of cider and practically force the farmer into the position of occupying the place now occupied by the licensed holder. I do not think that that will be a desirable result. I feel that the imposition of this tax, with these restrictions in this limited manner, is necessarily an experiment, but I want to enter my protest against this limitation and to point out to the right hon. Gentleman that this is certainly what will occur, and that he will ultimately have to deal with the thing as a whole. One thing I wish to point out is that in the adjoining counties where cider is not the drink and beer is, home brewing is being killed, and those areas are under the control of the Central Control Board.
That matter appertains to Clause 6, which was dealt with yesterday.
May I point out that Clause 6 proposes to fix the tax at 4d. per gallon, while Clause 7 deals with the method of collection of the tax and the whole of the limitations come in on this Clause. The right hon. and learned Gentleman has just been explaining how he has altered the method of collection in regard to the fixing of labels in the case of cider which is sold by people who buy it from the farmers.
:I think the right hon. and learned Gentleman was replying to a misconceived remark of another hon. Member who appeared to think that cider as supplied on farms was taxable, and the Solicitor-General pointed out that under Clause 6 this point was dealt with. Clause 7 only deals with the machinery of collection.
Then I will confine myself strictly to the question of the machinery of collection. Unless the right hon. Gentleman has an altogether wider method of collection of the tax, which will operate so as to include practically the whole of the cider consumed, it will certainly not be the success that he has led the Committee to anticipate, and I am quite sure that he will find that this proposal will require to be enlarged and altered in the near future.
With regard to the penal provisions, the Solicitor-General has explained the point in regard to the penalty of £50. I would like to know why it is necessary, as regards the penalty in Sub-clause (3), that the person is to be liable to it on summary conviction. What is the particular differentiation between the one fine and the other. One is an Excise penalty and the other is a magisterial fine. Why is there this distinction?
Because they are different classes of offence. One offence is the selling of cider and other things in breach of this provision without paying the proper duty, and that kind of offence has always been punished by a penalty and not by a conviction and fine. Sub-clause (3) refers to obstructing the entry of the officer who enters the premises under the Act, and that is treated as an offence under the law, and in that case we make him liable to a conviction and a fine.
Question put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 8.—(Duty on Machines for Aerating Waters.)
Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.
Clauses 9 and 10 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 24.]
Local Government (Emergency Provisions) Bill
As amended, considered.
The new Clause ( Powers of Sanitary Authorities in Connection with the Storage of Furniture ) standing in the name of the hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. S. Roberts) is not in order, because it imposes a charge.
The business on the Bill was interrupted by a Private Bill. I went out of the House, the annunciator indicating that "private business and other orders" were under consideration, and I missed my opportunity.
That is not my fault.
CLAUSE 1.—(Payments to Officers, etc., of Local Authorities in Naval or Military Service.)
(1) Any local authority may grant leave of absence to any officer or servant for as long a period as may be necessary to enable him to serve in or with His Majesty's Forces for the purpose of the present War, and the local authority may—
( a ) whilst he is so serving pay to him or to his wife or other dependants nominated by him a sum which shall not, without the sanction of the Local Government Board, exceed his civil remuneration after deducting therefrom the amount of his naval or military pay and allowances; and
( b ) in the event of his death, for a period not exceeding twenty-six weeks after the date on which he is notified to his widow or other dependants as dead or missing, pay to her or them sums calculated at the same rate as those previously paid to him, her or them:
Provided that—
(i.) in fixing the sum to be paid to the widow or other dependant of a deceased officer or servant regard shall be had to any pension or other sum payable to the widow or other dependant out of any public or charitable fund; and
(ii.) It shall not be incumbent on the local authority to reduce any payment made to an officer or servant on the ground that during his service with the forces he has become or becomes entitled to increased naval or military pay in consequence of receiving a commission or promotion in rank.
(2) This Section shall apply to the case of an officer or servant of a local authority who, before the passing of this Act, took service in or with His Majesty's Forces with the sanction or permission of the local authority, and any resolution, promise, sanction, or permission, passed or given by a local authority to any such officer or servant with a view to his serving in or with His Majesty's Forces, shall be binding on the local authority to the extent to which it could have been passed or given if the provisions of this Act had been in force:
Provided that where before the passing of this Act a local authority has resolved, promised, sanctioned, or agreed to make payments in excess of the amounts authorised by this Section, any such excess payments up to the date of the passing of this Act, or such later date as may be determined by the Local Government Board, shall be deemed to have been lawfully made.
(3) On the application of a local authority, the Local Government Board may determine any question as to what amount may be paid under this Section.
(4) Where any local authority has adopted a scale of payments for its officers and servants serving in or with His Majesty's Forces in accordance with or not exceeding the scale of payments laid down for officers and servants of His Majesty's Civil Service so serving, it shall not be necessary for any such local authority to obtain the sanction of the Local Government Board as required by this Section, and any payments made in accordance with such scale shall be deemed to be and to have been lawfully made.
The following Amendment stood on the Paper in the name of Mr. Hayes Fisher: At the end of Sub-section (2) to insert the words,
"and the Local Government Board shall sanction the continuance of such express payments after such date as aforesaid in any case where it appears to them that the man joined His Majesty's Forces in reliance on such resolution, promise, sanction, or agreement, and that the amount of the excess is not unreasonable."
The Amendment standing in the name of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board is also out of order.
If that be so I shall move to recommit the Bill, in order to have an opportunity of inserting it; and it may also be of interest to the hon. Member for Sheffield if I state that we can deal with his new Clause at the same time, because the Government propose to accept it.
Amendments made: In Sub-section (4) leave out the words "any local authority has adopted a," and insert the word "the."
After the word "Forces" insert instead thereof the words "adopted by a local authority is."
After the word "payments" ["scale of payments"] insert the words "for the time being."—[ Mr. Hayes Fisher. ]
CLAUSE 3.—(Reckoning Service for Superannuation.)
(1) All service by an officer or servant of a local authority in or with His Majesty's Forces for the purposes of the present War shall, for the purposes of any enactment providing for the superannuation of such officers and servants applicable to his case, be aggregated and reckoned with his service as an officer or servant of the local authority, and he shall contribute to the superannuation fund (if any) the same amounts (if any) as he would have contributed if he had continued in their actual service and had received the normal remuneration of that service.
Amendment made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "and" ["and he shall contribute"], insert the words "unless an agreement to the contrary has been made before the passing of this Act."
CLAUSE 6.—(Use of Local Authority's Premises and Officers for Military Purposes.)
Subject to the approval of the appropriate Government Department, the use of any institution, building, or other premises belonging to any local authority for the accommodation of sick or wounded sailors or soldiers, or for other purposes in connection with the present War, and any expenditure incurred in connection therewith, shall be deemed to be and always to have been lawful, and the service or employment of any officers or servants of a local authority in or about any institution, building, or other premises so used or otherwise, with the consent of the local authority, in connection with the present War shall be deemed for all purposes to be and always to have been service or employment under that local authority.
Amendment made: Leave out the words "Subject to the approval of the appropriate Government Department."—[ Mr. Hayes Fisher. ]
I beg to move at the end of the Clause to add the words,
"Provided that, except in the case of—
I should like to make a suggestion to the right hon. Gentleman. I do not think this Amendment will cover the whole of the buildings under the control of our municipal authorities. I know that the intention is to give them the right to use the buildings for military and other purposes of the War without obtaining the sanction of the Local Government Board. The Amendment says, in paragraph ( a ), "a shire, county, town, or district hall and offices connected therewith." I suggest that we should leave out the words "connected therewith," and put in the words "under their control." As the Amendment stands, I am afraid it means that the offices must be connected with the district hall if they are to be let without the sanction of the Local Government Board. The munici- palities and county councils have buildings under their control which are not connected with the district hall, and it would give them greater satisfaction if my Amendment were inserted.
Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that Amendment?
I am afraid I cannot accept it, because it will go a little too far. I have already made considerable concessions to the opinions expressed in Committee, and I do not think I can accept this suggestion.
I do not wish to divide the House upon the matter, and will accept the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment, because it is an improvement on the Bill. With regard to paragraph ( b ), there is no provision in it for the letting of schools. I know that in many cases the letting of schools is a very urgent question. For instance, there is the possibility of raids upon our coast and of a large number of wounded coming in. It is very essential that the county councils having schools upon the coast should have the right to let these schools for these purposes. I do not know whether the word "premises" will include schools.
I am not inclined to think that schools will be covered by the Amendment. I do not feel quite sure about it. I am quite sure, however, that it is extremely important that the Central Administration should have something to say as to whether schools should be lent to the military authorities. After all, schools cannot be lent in a very great hurry. It is not a matter of twenty-four or twenty-eight hours. If schools are lent for military purposes, such as hospitals or anything of that kind, obviously they must be prepared for that purpose. That being so, surely it would not be at all difficult to approach the appropriate Government Department, which might be the Board of Education or the Local Government Board, and obtain their sanction to such procedure.
I should like to point out that in my own county of Durham we have a very large number of schools which have been occupied by the military. I remember that in the case of the bombardment of the Hartlepools the authorities were bound to make provsion for them during the night and the following week. It would be quite impossible for them to write to the Board of Education or the Local Government Board asking them to sanction the occupation of those premises when the men require billets at once. They have had to do it in great urgency. I would ask whether the word "premises" covers these schools; if not, I am quite certain there will be great indignation locally.
Question, "That the words proposed be added to the Bill," put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 11.—(Amendment of Law as to Locomotives on and near Highways.)
(1) Section five of the Locomotives Act, 1898, shall have effect as if for Sub-section (1) thereof there were substituted Sub-section (1) of Section twenty-five of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1908.
(2) Section two of the Locomotive Threshing Engines Act, 1894, shall have effect as if the proviso to that Section were omitted therefrom.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), after the word "Section" ["Section two of the"], to insert the words "six of the Locomotives Act, 1865, and Section."
I move this Amendment, together with the next one, in order to make some addition to economy in labour. These Amendments will cover cases where steam-ploughs are used within 25 yards of the road. At present they cannot be used within 25 yards of the road unless someone is stationed in the road to warn vehicular traffic and to assist passengers with horses which are in difficulties. The Board of Agriculture have had representations made to them during the War to the effect that it was exceedingly difficult to obtain additional labour, and asking that they might dispense with this precaution.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendment made: In Sub-section (2) leave out the words "that Section," and insert instead thereof the words "each of those sections."—[ Mr. Hayes Fisher. ]
I beg to move, "That the Bill, as amended, be recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House in respect of an Amendment to Clause 1 dealing with the continuance of excess payments and in respect of a new Clause (" Powers of Sanitary Authorities in Connection with the Storage of Furniture ").
Before the question is put, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, as a result of any conference he may have had with the President of the Board of Trade, he is prepared to meet the medical men by amending the proposal that they should only receive 1s. for the notification of diseases, instead of the 2s. 6d. they have hitherto enjoyed? I have been hoping that since the earlier stage of the Bill the right hon. Gentleman would have seen his colleague, and that we should have seen upon the Paper an Amendment for the restitution of the old state of things. It was very poor and meagre at the best for the medical men to receive only 2s. 6d., but to reduce it to 1s. in these times, when the medical profession are very hard put to it, and when most of them are serving the country in many ways at great sacrifice to themselves, is very unfair, and it would be mere justice to restore the old order of things and not to cut down the fee to such a meagre and miserable sum as 1s. I am still hopeful that the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to do that.
I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is satisfied that this first Clause and the other Clauses dealing with definitions deal sufficiently with workers who come under the Asylums Superannuation Acts for England, Scotland, and Ireland?
I can easily answer that question. I think their interests are identical with those of the employés of other local authorities, so far as I can see, and that their interests are not in any way prejudiced by anything in this Bill. As regards what was said by my hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Boyton) as to the reduction of the fee for the notification of diseases from 2s. 6d. to 1s., I have carried out my promise to my hon. Friend and his colleague who spoke against that reduction, and have consulted the President of the Local Government Board, who held out no hope whatever that if he were in the House he would consent to foregoing the advantages of this Clause from the point of view of economy. This Clause was brought forward as one of the products of the deliberations of the Retrenchment Committee. It is an economy asked for, at all events, during the War. Having obtained no sanction or approval from my right hon. Friend for dropping the Clause, I cannot agree to the suggestion.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill accordingly recommitted.
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 1.—(Payments to Officers, etc., of Local Authorities in Naval or Military Service.)
Sub-section (2).—This Section shall apply to the case of an officer or servant of a local authority who before the passing of this Act took service in or with His Majesty's Forces with the sanction or permission of the local authority, and any resolution, promise, sanction or permission, passed or given by a local authority to any such officer or servant with a view to his serving in or with His Majesty's Forces, shall be binding on the local authority to the extent to which it could have been passed or given if the provisions of this Act had been in force:
Provided that where before the passing of this Act a local authority has resolved, promised, sanctioned or agreed to make payments in excess of the amounts authorised by this Section, any such excess payments up to the date of the passing of this Act, or such later date as may be determined by the Local Government Board, shall be deemed to have been lawfully made.
I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (2), to add the words,
"and the Local Government Board shall sanction the continuance of such excess payments after such date as aforesaid in any case where it appears to them that the man joined His Majesty's Forces in reliance on such resolution, promise, sanction, or agreement, and that the amount of the excess is not unreasonable."
This Amendment is moved as a concession to the feeling that was expressed in the Committee stage of the Bill. It found expression in a good many quarters, and was very well expressed by the hon. Member for South Salford (Mr. M. Barlow), who hoped that the local authorities might be allowed to give any small excess over the amount allowed by the Bill, and that where it could be proved that the employés of local authorities had enlisted on the faith of an undertaking or promise made to them by the local authorities good faith should be kept with them, and that the payments might be allowed to be made where they were not unreasonable or unreasonably excessive. I have, therefore, put down this Amendment, which, I think, covers that case. The Committee would not desire to take away from the Local Government Board the power to call the attention of the local authority to some cases where the amount to be paid could not be called reasonable—for instance, where a man might possibly be getting three times the amount which he previously enjoyed in the service of the local authority. In such cases it will be within the power of the Local Government Board to call the attention of the local authorities to those payments and say that they are excessive, and to endeavour to get them to revise those payments in view of the present circumstances, which, perhaps, do not justify payments made or promises given in the early period of the War. I would remind the Committee that when these promises were first made and the payments first given the separation allowances were 40 per cent. less than they are now, and in making these promises or giving these undertakings the local authorities had not in their mind any such separation allowances as are enjoyed now, but the much smaller separation allowances which were in operation at that time. I want, as much as anybody, to see that the local authorities shall, to the best of their ability, carry out any undertaking they gave to their employés. Now that this Clause has been amended and has become consonant with the general opinion expressed in Committee, hon. Members may rely upon it that wherever men have enlisted on the faith that a certain undertaking would be carried out, provided that those undertakings were within the powers of the local authority, then those undertakings will in future be acted upon; but the Local Government Board will take to itself the power—which I think it ought to have—of trying to get the local authorities, where the payments are excessive, to conform to the ordinary standard laid down by the Treasury for the Civil Service.
I agree that where the payments are three or four times more than the man was earning there is a good case, but there may be certain cases where the money is only slightly more than the man's ordinary wage, and I hope the Local Government Board will not be too strict in carrying it out.
The hon. Member may be sure that, so far as I have any power to interpret this, I shall not be too strict in regard to any payment which has been promised by the local authority which is slightly in excess of the general standard laid down by the Government.
Amendment agreed to.
Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Powers of Sanitary Authorities in Connection with the Storage of Furniture.)
It shall be lawful for any sanitary authority, if they think fit, to make or to join with any other sanitary authorities in making arrangements and to incur reasonable expenditure in connection with the storage of furniture and effects belonging to persons serving in or with His Majesty's forces (including the cost of insurance against fire and other loss or damage), upon such terms and conditions as they may impose, and any expenditure incurred by the authority shall be defrayed out of any fund or rate out of which any expenses of the authority are payable.
Clause brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."
I understand the Government are prepared to accept this Clause. Its object is to enable local authorities, if they think fit, to make, or to join with other local authorities in making, arrangements to incur reasonable expenditure in connection with the storage of furniture belonging to persons serving in His Majesty's Forces. It was brought to my notice that it would be a very great convenience to married men who wished to leave their wives and families with relatives and in the meantime to give up their house. They could not do this unless they could store their furniture. We all know the difficulty about storing furniture, especially in times like these, and I understand from the trade that at present, owing to the War, there is very little room left. There is a great shortage of space, and moreover the usual price would be out of the way and would be beyond what these men would be able to pay, so that it would be a very great convenience to them if arrangements could be made by the local authorities. I think it would work in this way: There are vacant buildings, skating rinks and places of that kind, which the local authority could make arrangements to take over for the period of the War, putting a caretaker in charge. The trade itself would not be interfered with, because this kind of business would not interfere with their ordinary custom. I have had some communications with the manager of a large storage place and he said, "We shall be only too glad to help local authorities in any way we can," and he offered his services to serve personally on a committee. I think it will work without the slightest friction. There is another thing which will be of great assistance. In large munition areas there is a shortage of houses. If we get rid of the furniture it will set the houses free for occupation by munition workers, so it will benefit the soldier and sailor who wants to leave his wife and family with relatives, and it will benefit the community by finding houses for munition workers. I wish to thank the right hon. Gentleman for kindly moving to recommit the Bill and so getting me out of my temporary difficulty.
The Government is endeavouring to devise, amongst other things, various little ways of helping the married soldier who has attested and is going to fight our battles, and this is one of the small ways in which the married soldier could be helped, particularly the married soldier who has no family or a small family. In that case, no doubt, many wives would be glad to give up their houses and go to live with friends or relations. No doubt the storage of their furniture makes it a little difficult for them. One way in which municipalities could help them is provided by this Clause, and I hope they will make it known to married soldiers that this little assistance can be given, and I hope it will be acted upon in many cases.
If there are no buildings in any town for the storage of furniture and if the municipality desires to erect a building, will the Local Government Board sanction it?
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause added to the Bill.
Bill reported; as amended on recommittal, considered; read the third time, and passed.
The remaining Orders were read and postponed.
Message from the Lords
Consolidation Bills,—That they propose that the Joint Committee appointed to consider all Consolidation Bills of the present Session do meet in Committee Room A on Tuesday, the 9th of May next, at half-past Three o'clock.
Lords Message considered:—
Ordered, That the Committee of this House do meet the Lords Committee, as proposed by their Lordships.—[ Mr. Gulland. ]
Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.
Military Service
Local and Appeal Tribunals (Scotland)
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 22nd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
I wish to raise a point which I was not able to raise the other night, because the Minister responsible was not present. I understand the reason why he was not here, and he is not to blame. There are two points I wish to raise. The first is concerned with the Aberdeen District Local Tribunal, and I raise it, not because I do not know that the man concerned has not the right of appeal to the Appeal Tribunal, but because I want my right hon. Friend to state, if he can, once and for all, what are the rights of these tribunals in interfering with the private concerns of men who are brought before them. This is the case of a shepherd who was brought before this tribunal and received exemption till 31st May. The shepherd's is one of the exempted callings and the right hon. Gentleman knows the utility of these men in Scotland and the necessity of retaining the services of a fairly large number of them. The chairman of the Court had a grievance against the man which he expressed in these words:
"I do not know if many people will be very much disappointed if you go to the Army, because you know quite well that you would not pay me for what your sheep ate, and there are some others in the same position. I think the sooner you are at the front the better."
No one would complain of the views of anyone as to whether this or that person should be at the front. What I am complaining about is that the chairman of this tribunal introduced a business transaction which lay between the shepherd and himself, and gave public utterance to it in a tribunal which was concerned with something else. It is not the case that the shepherd did not pay the bill in question, because I have here, and can show my right hon. Friend, a receipt for the money, in which it is stated that "Alexander Clark, Advocate, Aberdeen, as agent for William Barton, Bury Hall, Bridge of Don, from Alexander Rattray, the sum of £5 9s. 4d., being in full settlement of the principal sum and expenses." So that the shepherd has paid the chairman of this tribunal for what his sheep ate. It is not fair, and certainly not within the intentions of the Government and those who are responsible for the general supervision of these tribunals, that an incident of this kind ought to be allowed to affect any decision which is given. When I raised this by way of question and answer the Secretary for Scotland said something about the character of the shepherd. I think he said it might be something to do with the character of the man.
I must correct that. I do not know anything about this shepherd, except from my hon. Friend, and I know nothing about his character. He may be a man of the most exalted or depraved character for all I know. I may have said the result of an application may have been based on considerations of the character of a business, but I did not say that of him, but said it as a general observation.
If my right hon. Friend looks up the OFFICIAL REPORT, he will find that what I said was perfectly right. I am willing to stand by what is in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I looked at it before coming here. My right hon. Friend did not mean to accuse the shepherd of having either a bad or a good character. What he said was that it might be due to the character of the man. As he says he knows nothing at all about the character of the man, good, bad or indifferent, I will not now enter into any question of whether he has a good or a bad character. I know all about him. I have his personal history as a shepherd. I will not raise it because it is not relevant to the discussion, but if it is questioned I can meet it. I resent—and I think the House will agree that we ought to resent—the introduction of any business transaction between the chairman of a tribunal or the tribunal itself and a man who is brought before it. If my right hon. Friend agrees that that is so I am quite content to leave it there. An expression of opinion on his part that that kind of thing should not obtain in tribunals will be sufficient, and that is the only protest I desire to make.
The second point I want to raise is the question of a petition to the Secretary for Scotland from certain petitioners in the city of Edinburgh. I cannot speak for conscientious objectors, because I do not agree with their standpoint. I am not, therefore, raising at all the moral issue involved. What I am raising is whether or not an Appeal Court which is appointed by my right hon. Friend is using the rules and instructions in the way it is intended they ought to be used under the Act. The points made by the petitioners are these. That the Lothians Appeal Tribunal, which covers the cases of Edinburgh, have been proceeding with the appeals, notwithstanding the fact that the appellant made no representation and laid no evidence in respect thereof; on the contrary he merely stated that he had instructions not to cross-examine. Secondly, that the tribunal refused to allow applicants to state any arguments in regard to the military representative's written grounds of appeal, and the irrelevance and incompetence thereof, or to put any questions to the military representative with reference to his appeal. Further, that they, without cause shown, and without reasonable inquiry, reversed the decision of the local tribunal which had heard the cases. The case, quite briefly, is contained in these three statements made in the petition to the Secretary for Scotland. Here you have a local tribunal, in which in the bulk of these petitioners' cases, they give the benefit of non-combatant service, after examination by the tribunal. These cases were appealed against by the military representatives to the Appeal Tribunal appointed by my right hon. Friend, and in 95 per cent. of the cases the judgment was reversed. The Appeal Tribunal, therefore, is in conflict with the local tribunal. All that one wants to make perfectly sure about is that these people do get the benefit of the law which we have created for them. I do not ask for anything more than that, and I do not think that any reasonable person would ask for more than that, but I think the House will agree that when a man who asserts that he has, and probably justly, a conscientious objection to taking part in anything connected with the War, is brought before the Appeal Tribunal, at any rate, he ought to be allowed to state his case
I have got here one or two examples of how this Appeal Tribunal has acted, and if my right hon. Friend will bear with me I will read some of them. Here is an extract from the leading newspaper in Edinburgh. [An HON. MEMBER: "Name!"] If the hon. Member does not know, then his acquaintance with the East of Scotland must be very limited. The quotation from the newspaper is as follows: facts, and, therefore, he is actually judged in the absence of any evidence. I do submit to my right hon. Friend that he would be doing a service to the administration of the tribunals if he would convince himself that no dissatisfaction exists in regard to the way in which this has been done. In reply to a question I put to him, he said that he had investigated the matter and he was convinced that the tribunal was within its powers and performing its duties. I would respectfully suggest to him that that is not so, and that if he took the trouble to go into the cases which I and others could give him, and the method under which men have been dealt with, he would agree that something was required from him. I am not asking him to do very much. I am only asking him to put into operation the powers which reside in the Act for the men who make that appeal. You may or you may not agree with these men, but whether you do so or not you have this instrument by which they can be judged, and they are entitled to everything that that instrument gives them. If my right hon. Friend sees that they get that he will be conferring a service upon the community and getting rid of a considerable amount of dissatisfaction. I hope very much that he can see his way to consider this matter and look into these cases. All we ask on behalf of our constituents is that these tribunals shall be conducted with more toleration towards the men going before them in a very difficult situation.
I should not have taken any notice of the irresponsible utterances of the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) were it not that on this particular occasion he is attacking one of my Constituents. The hon. Member seems to think that it is not enough for him to represent my native city of Edinburgh. He would also like to represent my Constituency. Indeed, I understand that he claims to have a sort of roving commission to right imaginary wrongs throughout the length and breadth of Scotland. That is a big claim. He knows very little about this matter. The little information he has he derives from a local newspaper report in the first instance. He has apparently supplemented that information by some correspondence with the shepherd or his friends. He knows nothing whatever, or up to a few days ago he knew nothing whatever, of the shepherd Rattray, whom he assumes to be as guileless as a sheep, simply because be happens to be a shepherd. He knows nothing whatever about Mr. Bothwell, the chairman of this tribunal. Mr. Bothwell is a gentleman whom I have had the privilege of knowing for a great many years. He is a highly respected public man in East Aberdeenshire, and he has accepted the position of chairman of this tribunal out of patriotic motives. He has taken up a somewhat disagreeable and even invidious duty entirely in a public spirit, and simply because he is chairman of this local tribunal he is attacked, without any justification whatever, by my hon. Friend. My hon. Friend has a temperamental objection to the chairmen of these tribunals as chairmen. He objects to the conduct of another chairman of another tribunal in Edinburgh on the grounds that he glanced at the clerk during the proceedings. That seems to me to be a very harmless gesture, and need not necessarily imply any high degree of moral turpitude on the part of the chairman.
What is the charge that my hon. Friend brings against the chairman of the Aberdeen Tribunal? The charge is that he conveyed to the tribunal certain facts out of his knowledge as to the business reputation and character of the shepherd who was appealing for exemption under the Military Service Act. I have always understood that the whole object of appointing local men on these tribunals was that the tribunal might be in possession of local knowledge. It seems to me that if Mr. Bothwell had concealed from the tribunal, of which he was chairman, information in his possession which he regarded as material to enable the tribunal to form a judgment upon the case, he would have been guilty of grave dereliction of duty. The facts cited by members of local tribunals, and the facts which they bring to the knowledge of their colleagues, many times tell in favour of the applicant. Where they do tell in favour of the applicant my hon. Friend, I am quite sure, would not object in any way whatever to the facts being cited. His objection here is not to the information that was given to the tribunal by the chairman, but to the fact that it was unfavourable to the gentleman whom he has taken under his protection. I have a letter from the chairman of the tribunal. I do not propose to trouble the House by reading it at length, but I will ask to be allowed to read one sentence. It states:
I deprecate very much things of this sort being brought before the House in the manner in which they have been presented to-day. For my own part I have the greatest admiration for the public spirit which has led hundreds of men all over the country to under- take a task which is not only laborious but invidious and distasteful. But if they are to be subjected to trivial criticism in this House and Ministers are to be asked to correct their every expression, then I think these gentlemen will find their task impossible and will begin resigning in large numbers.
Hear, hear!
That is what my hon. Friend wants.
dissented.
6.0 P.M.
I do not know why he applauds the remark, if he does not desire its accomplishment. What is the position? Parliament has set up these local tribunals, with Appeal Tribunals. It is not possible that you should have all these hundreds of tribunals and not have a casual observation made in these tribunals that affects the delicate and sensitive taste of my hon. Friend. I do not know that I could not quote from the past orations of my hon. Friend remarks which would be at least as open to question by Members of the House as the remarks which he has quoted. Here we have a conflict of testimony. We have the Member for East Edinburgh and the Member for the district, who knows all the circumstances a great deal better than the Member for East Edinburgh, and I cannot help thinking that my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeen put a very pertinent point before the House. I have not myself thought it my duty to inquire into this little matter. Why should I? Has this man suffered any injury? No. He has received a prolonged exemption of two months. He is suffering no hardship. He can appeal and try to get total exemption from the Appeal Tribunal. What was the ground upon which this man sought exemption? It was that he is a dealer in sheep, that he hired pasturage and grazed sheep, and that he is indispensable to the country. That is a question which raises the whole position of his business, and the chairman, knowing about his business, made some remarks. I do not think that it is a matter of very great importance whether these remarks were couched in the very best form or not, because the man suffered no injury. If we are going to go into trivial criticism of these tribunals we shall have a task for which this House is very incom- petent and for which Members, who rely upon newspaper reports, are not more competent than the House.
Local tribunals were appointed so that local knowledge should be brought to bear. I have heard members of local tribunals say that sometimes a farmer on a tribunal is extremely useful in two ways: in exposing false claims, which he is able to deal with from his local knowledge, and in the protection of applicants. Having local knowledge, very often he is able to assure the committee that there are substantial reasons why the applicant should be exempted; and Parliament in its wisdom, instead of adopting the class of tribunal that you have in all conscript countries, chose this class of tribunal, appointed by the local authorities, who have the advantages of local knowledge and local responsibility. But if they have those advantages, are we always to judge every word that they utter? If we were to take into account all the remarks which some of us may object to made by very much higher tribunals than this, even by the highest tribunals, we should have plenty of work to do.
Take the other case, which the hon. Gentleman again brings forward after his usual manner, when a complaint is brought to him, without investigating it. The hon. Member acts as a sort of post-box for complaints in Scotland. Anybody who puts a complaint in his letter-box is sure of having it forwarded to the Secretary for Scotland. The hon. Member ought to employ a censor and inquire into these complaints before presenting them. He got a complaint by a gentleman who may be a very worthy man, for all I know, but he was undoubtedly a man of extreme opinions, for which this Government has shown very great consideration and tenderness, but opinions which are exceptional and which, if held by all the people in this country, would render this nation defenceless. He accepts and puts as absolute gospel what he is told. I did think this is a case in which I should make some inquiry of the distinguished lawyer who is chairman of this tribunal. I do not accept those allegations. I know what has been the practice. I have had many cases brought to my notice in which gentlemen who take strong views and peculiar views have a great inclination to air their views at considerable length to tribunals, and members of tribunals have told me that some of these gentlemen made it a practice to come to tribunals with long speeches, not on their own individual ground for demanding exemption, but on the general question of conscientious objection or Socialism or hatred of war, or all these general propositions; and one after the other thought that the tribunal should sit and listen to him, and listen also to the applause of the people whom the speaker was careful to bring with him. The tribunals very properly say that they would never finish their business if this were to continue.
This is one of the grounds of objection. Many members of tribunals have told me that these speeches were of like effect, and it did not help them to come to a decision to listen to general propositions, maintained in rather extreme language, and they cut them short. But they assured me that they were always ready to listen to any statement made by the applicant which is really relevant to the determination of his case. I can understand that occasionally the tribunals get a little impatient. There are conscientious objectors like that ancient and noble Society of Friends for whom we all have respect, and for whose sake the safeguarding of conscientious objectors very largely has been granted. But as every religion has its hypocrites, who sometimes practise courses which are anything but religious under the cloak of religion, so I am afraid that conscientious objectors have their hypocrites, and that a great many people who are not conscientious objectors at all put forward the claim of being conscientious objectors to escape military service. I can imagine the tribunals occasionally getting a little impatient of these people.
I am not prepared to say that there are not cases in which the Government should inquire. I have had a case to-day in which I thought it right to inquire into the facts and see whether a particular applicant should not be heard again for particular reasons. I am not going to lay down the proposition that we should never communicate with these tribunals, but I do lay down the proposition that it is not fair for Members of Parliament to take ex parte statements as my hon. Friend has done, made by extreme people who are interested people, and assume that they are right and the tribunals wrong, and to expect a Minister to go into the details of every question and put the tribunals right. For my part I think that the Government are under a deep debt of gratitude to the men who have undertaken this work, and that they ought not to be treated like children. They are quite as capable as my hon. Friend of judging the position, and I believe that they do so with great fairness, even if occasionally an indiscreet word does occur, as I dare say it does. A member of a tribunal was telling me of an argument which he had with a conscientious objector. It seemed to me that they discussed the whole question in the light of the Old and New Testament at considerable length. I should not have adopted that course, but I know that the member of the tribunal enjoyed his theological argument, and I believe that the objector enjoyed his equally. But tribunals who want to get to the end of their work could not indulge in that without limitation. The real grievance on the part of many people is that they cannot get off their speeches. But in no Court that I am acquainted with is any judge debarred from cutting short irrelevant matter. That is what I think has been done in these tribunals. I appeal to my hon. Friend not to take this captious view of the tribunals, but to recognise that they are doing citizens' duty, that they have shown a very proper spirit, and that they ought to be supported instead of being treated to criticism.
Listening to the speech of the Secretary for Scotland one would imagine that his life had been made a burden by my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh. The impression which his speech is calculated to leave upon the House is that from the day the Military Service Act came into operation he has been overwhelmed with a series of complaints and objections in regard to the action of these tribunals. So far as I am aware, this is the first occasion on which my hon. Friend has called the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to any tribunals in Scotland. He put a question in regard to the first case, the case of the East Aberdeenshire shepherd, a question which was answered by the right hon. Gentleman with something less than his usual courtesy, and that is saying a great deal. And it was because of the geniality of the reply that my hon. Friend decided to bring that case up upon the Adjournment, and if the right hon. Gentleman does not desire in the future comparatively trivial cases to be raised on the Adjournment of the House, and if he wishes to save his very valuable time for more vital concerns, he would do well to treat questions which are put to him with a little more consideration.
If the hon. Gentleman is making a charge of discourtesy, will he read the answer to the question?
From my recollection of the answer it was to the effect that this was a matter as to which he did not think it worth while to inquire. If an hon. Member has information which he makes the subject matter of a question, he is surely entitled to better treatment than that. I am referring to the original answer. It was because of the terms of the original answer, and only because of that, that the question was raised upon the Adjournment. My hon. Friend does not raise the question as to whether the tribunal came to a just or an unjust decision. The question which arises in this case is whether the chairman of a tribunal is entitled to make use of a private quarrel which he has with an applicant for the purpose of prejudicing the applicant's case before the tribunal. I think that that is a matter of some importance. While tribunals who have to deal with these matters were intended to take advantage of such local knowledge for the purpose of arriving at a decision, it was certainly not the intention of the Government nor of Parliament that because of local knowledge members of a tribunal should interfere in a case in which they were likely to be personally biassed, and it was solely on that ground of personal bias that the question has been raised. My hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeenshire made a number of remarks upon the case, none of which seem to me to deal with the facts. He made some genial references to my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh, and he accused him of representing Scotland. The fact that my hon. Friend receives so many letters from Scotland is to some extent evidence of his ability to represent that country, and I know that in other cases even the Secretary for Scotland has been willing to avail himself of the special knowledge which my hon. Friend has of Scotland, not only personal knowledge but the knowledge which he has gained from the large correspondence which he has with very many people in Scotland. The hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire knows the chairman of this tribunal. The fact that the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire knows him, of course, is a matter very much in his favour. The fact that any gentleman can appeal to the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire says a great deal for him. It is the first time I ever heard the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire say a good word of anybody, and I am inclined, therefore, to believe that the chairman of this tribunal must be an exceptional man. I have never heard the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire say a good word of any colleague in this House.
I have of you.
That was in my absence. The hon. Member reserves his compliments for occasions when their objects are not present. On this occasion, however, he has paid a public tribute to this gentleman. Unfortunately, however, his compliments are discounted by this fact, that the chairman of the tribunal is chairman of one of the hon. Gentleman's local associations.
That is not so.
I am sorry to misrepresent the hon. Gentleman, but I am speaking from recollection of information which he has conveyed to me. If this gentleman is not the chairman he is one of the leading office bearers of one of his associations, and one of his most prominent supporters, so that the correction does not go to the substance of the point I am making in this particular instance. I believe, also, that there is another reason why the chairman of this tribunal appeals to the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire. The chairman of this tribunal has a reputation of being the most genial and affable man in the locality, and these are qualities which, of course, must appeal to the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire. But the fact that neither the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire nor the Secretary for Scotland has been able to defend the chairman of the tribunal, or to defend the expressions which he used—the evidence of which expressions does not depend upon any newspaper report but depends upon the notes taken by the solicitor who was present at the tribunal—the fact that the expressions used by him have not been defended by either of these gentlemen, I say justifies the question which was put by my hon. Friend. I do not intend to enter into the larger question in connection with the Appeal Tribunals in Edinburgh and the Lothians now. My hon. Friend has some title to speak with regard to the city of Edinburgh, although that city is the native place of the Member for East Aberdeenshire. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland should, I think, hardly treat these matters in the cavalier way in which he is inclined to treat them. After all, the people who are coming before these tribunals are very largely men who share the views which he used to hold in regard to military service, and if they are faithful to their old convictions, he himself has deserted those convictions.
Do I understand the hon. Member suggests that I ever was a conscientious objector? If so, he is singularly misinformed.
I will withdraw the term "conscientious." I merely said that they at least have remained faithful to the views which the right hon. Gentleman formerly held with regard to military service. I say that, at least, is a reason why he should treat them with some degree of indulgence, and that if they have a desire to make speeches before the tribunals he should at least allow them that liberty, as he knows they have not the opportunity of stating their views before a Cabinet of twenty-three, a privilege which is allowed to him. I do not wish to make any attack on the tribunals generally. I have brought to the attention of the House the conduct of certain tribunals, but I believe that in the majority of cases the tribunals have honestly endeavoured to perform their functions. But as the administration of this Act is under the supervision of the Government, and as the Government are responsible to the House of Commons, it is surely our duty, when abuses are brought to our notice, to see that the Government, at least so far as we can, does its duty in checking these abuses, and in seeing that this Act is fairly administered to all persons, whatever their views may be.
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-one minutes after Six o'clock, till Monday next, 17th April, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 22nd February last.
Petitions Presented
The following Petitions were presented and ordered to lie upon the Table:—
Monday
Local Government (Emergency Provisions) Bill,—Petition from Bermondsey, for alteration.
Thursday
Holding of Land,—Petition of J. Brown-john, for restriction and extension.