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Commons Chamber

Volume 81: debated on Monday 17 April 1916

House of Commons

Monday, April 17, 1916

Private Business

Private Bills (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the Second Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—

North British Railway Bill.

Ordered, That the Bill be committed.

Provisional Order Bills (No Standing Orders applicable),—Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners for Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, namely:—

Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 1) Bill,

Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time To-morrow.

South Metropolitan Gas Bill,

Read the third time, and passed.

Saint John's Church, Kingston-upon-Hull, Bill,

As amended, considered; to be read the third time.

Canada Company Bill [ Lords ],

Imperial Continental Gas Association Bill [ Lords ],

Van Diemen's Land Company Bill [ Lords ], Read a second time, and committed.

Edinburgh Corporation Order Confirmation Bill,

Considered; to be read the third time to-morrow.

Shops Act, 1912

Copies presented of Orders made by the Councils of the undermentioned local authorities, and confirmed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department:—

Urban district of Barnoldswick;

Urban districts of Mexborough, Swinton, and Wath-upon-Dearne;

Urban district of Featherstone;

County of Anglesey (village of Bryngwran)

[by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Copy presented of Orders made by the Councils of the undermentioned local authorities, and confirmed, with amendment, by the Secretary of State for the Home Department:—

Borough of Stockton-on-Tees;

County of West Riding of Yorkshire (urban district of Guiseley)

[by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

East India (Loans Raised in England)

Copy presented of Return of all Loans raised in England, chargeable on the Revenues of India, outstanding at the commencement of the half-year ending on the 31st March, 1916, etc. [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 57.]

Irish Land Commission

Copy presented of Return of Advances under the Irish Land Purchase Acts for the month of June, 1914 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Patents, Designs, and Trade Marks

Copy presented of Thirty-third Report of the Comptroller-General of Patents, Designs, and Trade Marks, with Appendices, for the year 1915 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 58.]

Companies (Consolidation) Act, 1908

Copy presented of Account showing Receipts and Expenditure on account of Proceedings in connection with the winding up of Companies under the Act during the year ending 31st March, 1916 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 59.]

Bankruptcy Act (Proceedings)

Copy presented of Account showing the Receipts and Expenditure on account of Bankruptcy Proceedings during the year ended 31st March, 1916 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 60.]

Duchy of Lancaster (Methwold Reclamation Scheme)

Accounts presented for the year ended 20th December, 1915 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 40, 1916) [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 61.]

CONTRABAND OF WAR (MISCELLANEOUS, No. 12, 1916)

Copy presented of List of Articles Contraband of War [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Colonial Reports (Annual)

Copy presented of Colonial Report, No. 881 (East Africa Protectorate, Report for 1914–15) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers to Questions

War

German Attitude Towards Islam

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will propose to the French and Italian Governments concerted measures for making known as widely as possible throughout all the North African countries, by Arabic translations or otherwise, the papers recently captured in East Africa revealing the German attitude towards Islam?

The contents of the papers were at once telegraphed to the British authorities in Egypt, in order that the widest publicity might be given to them in Egypt and the Soudan, and copies of the papers were sent to the French and Italian Ambassadors in London. The French and Italian Governments have doubtless considered how they may best be used. Steps are being taken to obtain photographic facsimiles of the original documents, and these will be made available in the same way for circulation in Moslem countries.

Italy and Germany

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether a state of war exists between Italy and Germany?

Certainly not. All commercial intercourse between the two countries has been forbidden by the Italian Government.

Austria and Serbia (Hague Tribunal)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, adverting to the recent statement of the German Chancellor that this country entered the War to prevent the free exercise of Germany's peaceful endeavours, can he say whether the telegram of His Majesty the Czar to the Kaiser, dated 29th July, 1914, stating that it would be right to give over the Austro-Serbian problem to The Hague Tribunal was omitted from the German White Book; and whether he has any information that any German newspaper has been permitted to publish this telegram, or whether the fact has been concealed from the German people that, instead of the Allies forcing war on Germany, they offered to refer the causes which led to the War to the peaceful arbitration of The Hague Tribunal?

Yes, Sir; the telegram referred to was omitted from the German White Book. I understand that, after its publication in the Russian Press, the telegram was published in Germany with an unconvincing explanation as to its omission.

Persia

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the fact that, after the murder of the British Vice-Consul at Shiraz in September last, the danger to which the British residents at that place were exposed and the advisability of their removal was pointed out to both the Home and Indian Governments by the British Consul there, he will state the reasons which led the two Governments to disregard the warning given and to dissent from the course suggested being taken, with the result that the British community in Shiraz have now been held prisoners since the middle of November last and are reported to be subjected to hardships, while one has been murdered and another is missing?

The instructions issued to His Majesty's Consul at the time were to the effect that he should remain at Shiraz as long as possible, but that if the situation so developed that safety required it, he was authorised to leave with the British colony.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether information has been conveyed to the German Government that the German Consul at Salonika is being held prisoner by the French Government at the request of His Majesty's Government pending the release of the British Consul at Shiraz, in Persia; and, if so, on what date was that information given, and whether any fixed time was named within which the exchange was to be effected?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The intimation was made to the German Government on the 21st January. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, con- sidering that in addition to the British Consul at Shiraz the superintendent, medical officer, and chief clerk of the Indo-European Telegraph Department and the manager and clerks of the Imperial Bank of Persia were arrested and have been held prisoners by the German emissaries in Persia since November last, while an inspector of telegraphs is reported missing and a telegraph clerk was shot by a revolted Swedish gendarmerie officer, he will now take measures to arrange for the arrest of a similar number of German officials either in the British Concession at Shameen, in China, or at any other place that may be more convenient, and to have them held prisoners till the British officials in Persia are released?

As regards the Germans in the Shameen Concession, I can only refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer returned to his question of the 9th of December last. I would add, however, that information has been received to the effect that the Persian authorities have recently arrested certain German officers in Southern Persia, and His Majesty's Minister at Tehran has been instructed to ask, if this is the case, that the persons in question may be detained pending the release of the British prisoners at Ahran.

Declaration of London

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that it has been laid down in the "Zamora" case that Prize Courts are not bound by executive orders of the King in Council; and whether, having regard to this decision, he will consider the advisability of denouncing or repudiating in a formal manner such portions of the so-called Declaration of London as are still held by the Foreign Office, if not by the Courts, to be binding, and such Orders in Council as are based upon a Declaration, which is admitted to rest upon no legal or authoritative basis?

The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As to the second part of the question, I take due note of what my hon. Friend says. I hope, however, he will realise that there are certain objections to His Majesty's Government acting independently of their Allies in such a matter as this.

I could answer that question, but I should prefer to do so privately.

Coal Shortage

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that many public utility companies find it impossible to buy their requirements of coal for the coming twelve months; and whether, under these circumstances, power could be given to the local coal committees which have been recently established in the colliery districts to requisition coal?

A number of cases in which public utility undertakings have experienced difficulty in obtaining contracts for the full supplies of coal which they require have been referred by the Board of Trade to the district coal and coke supplies committees, and they have in some of these already been able to make suitable arrangements. I hope it will be found that supplies of coal to these undertakings can be maintained without requisitioning.

asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether he is aware of the shortage of coal in South Wales and of the difficulty in obtaining coal for shipment either as cargo or as bunkers at these ports; whether he is aware that bunker coal for steamers loading in these ports is difficult to obtain and at prices ranging from 40s. to 50s. per ton, and that 500 tons of Monmouthshire coal was with great difficulty purchased on the 11th instant at a price of 45s. per ton; whether he will inquire into the reason for these prices; and (2) whether he is aware that coal freights from Bristol Channel ports to River Plate ports was on the 11th instant about 60s., and that even at these reduced rates cargoes of coal are almost unobtainable; whether he is aware that the rate of freight from Virginia, United States of America, ports is 95s. per ton and that, notwithstanding the much higher freights from American coal ports to River Plate, the requirements of Argentina, Brazil, and Uruguay are being largely supplied with American coal owing to the much cheaper price of American coal; and whether he can state the price f.o.b. for Admiralty list coal at Bristol Channel ports and the price of best American coal f.o.b. United States ports?

The disturbance of mining operations and transport in South Wales, caused by the recent storm, has led to a considerable decrease in the available supply of coal, and very high prices have been paid for parcels ready for prompt shipment. Any comparison between the prices charged at the moment for these current purchases and prices in the United States would, in the circumstances, clearly be misleading, but the hon. Gentleman's statements in his question are correct, and I cannot view without apprehension the displacement of English by United States coal in South America.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that storms have nothing to do with the rate of freight from Cardiff to the River Plate?

That is perfectly true, but I was referring particularly to the price of coal.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state the total number of steamers and their respective nationalities which loaded cargoes of coal in the port of Cardiff during the months of January and February last; and whether he can state the number of steamers which loaded coal for Italy during the month of March last, giving their respective nationalities?

The number and nationalities of steamers which loaded coal at Cardiff (including Penarth and Barry) during the months of January and February, 1916, are:

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware of the statement which has been made in the Italian Press and by Italian gentlemen in this country, which is detrimental to this country, that British shipowners are bleeding the Italians?

There is no justification for the statements from whatever quarter they emanate. The figures I have just quoted show obviously that British shipowners have not done that.

Restriction of Imports

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether books in English printed abroad are excepted from the restrictions as to importation imposed on paper and paper-making materials; and whether, seeing that this exception is equivalent to a bounty on books of foreign origin, he will say what steps the Government propose to take to protect British publishers from this competition?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The object of the restrictions is to secure tonnage space, and I am not satisfied that the quantity of English books imported is sufficient to justify a prohibition on this ground.

Even if the quantity is small, is it not very oppressive on British publishers?

further asked the Presdent of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the price of certain classes of paper required for the production of educational books has recently been increased by 150 per cent.; whether this increase, or any part of it, is due to the shortage caused by the restrictions against the import of paper, whereby paper makers and middlemen are enabled to charge higher prices; and what steps the Government propose to take to prevent excessive and unreasonable prices being charged?

The price of paper has increased considerably, and it is possible that this may be due in part to the restriction of imports. The Paper Commission will use such power as it possesses to deal with definite proved cases of excessive charges for paper, if they are brought to its notice; but it must not be assumed that a price is unreasonable simply because it is in excess of the normal price. I understand the price of paper-making materials outside the United Kingdom has risen much more than 150 per cent.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if, in connection with the orders for the prohibition of imports, he has taken into consideration the difficulties of traders in allied countries who have booked orders and cannot ship the goods to this country; and if he has had any representations from allied countries in favour of a modification of the order, so as to allow of goods actually ordered before the 30th March to be imported?

Communications have passed with the Governments of our Allies in regard to various aspects of the prohibitions with a view to ensuring that no unnecessary damage should be inflicted upon their trade. The need for tonnage to carry essential supplies both for ourselves and for our Allies has rendered it necessary, however, to make the prohibitions applicable to all goods not actually on the way or paid for.

Naval and Military Services (Pensions and Grants)

asked the Secretary of State for India whether the widow of a captain in the Indian Army who had been second in command of his regiment for more than thirty days, but who did not happen to be second in command at the date of his death, is entitled to the pension allowed to the widow of a major, in accordance with the terms of the recent communiqué regulating temporary promotion with pay of rank?

The step of rank granted when an officer has acted in certain appointments for a period of thirty days is temporary only, and the officer reverts to his permanent rank on ceasing to hold the appointment. But if he is wounded or injured while so holding temporary rank, and dies in consequence of such wound or injury, his family would be granted the pensions appropriate to the higher rank, even though at the actual time of his death he had ceased to hold such rank.

Mesopotamia Campaign

asked the Secretary of State for India whether the original suggestion for the advance on Baghdad was made by the Government of India or by the British Government; and whether the suggestion had the approval of General Townshend?

The first proposal to advance on Baghdad after the battle of Kut-el-Amara was made neither by the Government of India nor by His Majesty's Government, but by the General Commanding-in-Chief in Mesopotamia. General Townshend was under the command of Sir John Nixon, and did not communicate with either the Government of India or with His Majesty's Government.

asked the Prime Minister if he will now communicate to the House General Townshend's reply to His Majesty's gracious telegram sent to Kut?

The King has graciously permitted me to read to the House the following telegram from Sir Percy Lake, dated 17th February, 1916:

"General Townshend has asked me to kindly communicate the following message to the King Emperor:—

'It is hard for me to express by words how profoundly touched and inspirited all ranks of my Command have been by His Majesty's personal message. On their behalf and my own I desire to express to His Majesty that the knowledge that we have gained the praise of our Beloved Sovereign will be our sheet-anchor in this defence.—GENERAL TOWNSHEHD.'"

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the fact that, owing to the course that the operations in Mesopotamia have taken, General Townshend has been passed over for promotion has been considered; and whether he can undertake that, if and when he is relieved, the fact that the forces under his command have been besieged for the past four months will not be a factor which will operate to deprive him of rank which, under other circumstances, he might have been given?

I am informed that Major-General Townshend is forty-ninth on the list of Major-Generals and that he has not been superseded. I cannot give any undertaking in the sense mentioned in the latter part of the question, but the House may be well assured that none of the circumstances attending General Townshend's skilful and gallant conduct of the defence of Kut and during the operations connected therewith will fail to receive adequate and sympathetic attention.

British Prisoners at Doberitz

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if Private A. C. Tulley, No. 14071, Royal Marines, with ten years' service, died at the Barrack Hospital, Millbank, recently, weighing only five stone; if he is aware that this man went out to Antwerp weighing about fourteen stone and was there taken prisoner by the Germans; that he was confined at Doberitz and, by statements received, was starved, ill-used, and knocked about, and finally sent back to England about the middle of February in a dying condition to the Millbank Hospital where he died within a fortnight of his reception; if representations will be made to the American Ambassador with a view to alleviating the brutality and ill-treatment of other prisoners of war in this camp; and if he will state how many prisoners of war returned from this camp have since died in England and the cause of their death as diagnosed by the medical authorities here?

I have made inquiry, and am informed that the statements in the question are substantially correct, but there is no record of Private Tulley's weight at the time of death. It appears from his statements that he was confined in the camp at Doberitz, and that after working in the wet he had no means of drying his clothes, and could get no underclothes. The men were covered with lice. In July, 1915, he got rheumatic fever through going on daily fatigue duty, getting wet through and having no change. He was sent to hospital and after five weeks was convalescent, and was sent to another camp called Dyrotz, about seven kilometres from Doberitz. He had to carry all his kit on the march, and broke down and was never well after that. A little later he was put into hospital at Doberitz, where he had no treatment at all and had to depend upon an English prisoner, one of the patients. They had no drugs. When he arrived in this country he was in an advanced stage of consumption and extremely emaciated, and he died in hospital a fortnight after his arrival. The Medical Board, who reported upon his condition, stated that it was due to exposure, insufficient food and clothing whilst a prisoner in Germany. Tulley himself stated that the conditions in the camp had much improved before he left it, and other reports confirm this. This improvement seems to have resulted from the efforts of the American Ambassador. There is no record of any other prisoners of war released from Doberitz Camp having died since their return to this country.

Daylight Saving

asked the Home Secretary whether he has any official information showing that the German Federal Council has adopted a Daylight-Saving Bill to be enforced in Germany during the summer months; whether he has any information of the intention of the Government of the French Republic to enforce a similar measure forthwith; and whether His Majesty's Government intend to take a similar step in the interest of national economy and the comfort and efficiency of the working classes?

I have observed statements in the Press to the effect that Germany and Austria are about to adopt a measure similar to that embodied in the Daylight Saving Bill, but I have no official information. I am making inquiry with respect to France and other countries. The question is receiving the attention of the Government.

Air Services

Enemy Raids and Bombardments

asked what are the respective numbers of deaths from burns and from fire not caused by enemy air raids or bombardment which have been the subject of inquests in Great Britain and Ireland during the year 1915 where the victims were officers, non-commissioned officers, or privates of His Majesty's Army, including the Territorial Forces, and munition workers, respectively?

It is doubtful whether the figures which the hon. Member desires could be obtained at all but, in any case, they could not be obtained without an exhaustive search in the records of inquests which would involve more labour than the results would justify.

Zeppelin L15 (Interviews With Captured Officers

asked whether correspondents of American newspapers were permitted to interview the officers of the Zeppelin captured near the mouth of the Thames; and, if so, by whose authority such permission was granted?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and to the second by the War Office.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether similar facilities were given to the correspondents of English newspapers?

Is there any reason why British correspondents should not have the same facilities as American?

Joint War Air Committee

asked the Prime Minister (1) whether he has any information that for the first nineteen months constant friction and jealousies have existed between the War Office and Admiralty in connection with the Air Service; whether he is aware that the Admiralty and War Office have had separate staffs of designers; that the trials made by one service of new machines were not in many cases either witnessed by or communicated to the other service; that the two services have been competing against each other for the purchase of engines abroad and at home; will he say when he first became acquainted with this state of affairs; and whether the responsible persons will be removed from their offices; and (2) if he will state the reason why Lord Derby and Lord Montagu have resigned from the Joint Committee charged with the business of the Air Service?

I must ask my hon. Friend to await the statement which I hope to make on this and other kindred matters before the House rises.

Squadron-Commander P. K. Wise

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War on what date Captain P. K. Wise was appointed a flight commander and a squadron commander, respectively, in the Royal Flying Corps (ballooning branch); on what date he completed his ballooning course, and what experience had he had of work in the air and artillery observation; and whether there are many officers in the Royal Flying Corps, whether pilots or observers, far better qualified both by experience and length of service for appointment as squadron commander?

It is, I think, generally admitted that the canvassing of the merits or demerits of particular officers by means of questions in this House is to be deprecated. Captain Wise was selected for his present post as the most suitable officer to fill it, and has justified his selection. I can send the hon. Member the other particulars for which he asks in his question, if he so desires.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Captain Wise gave up ten or twelve years' seniority in the Indian Army to join the Army in France as second-lieutenant, and that any promotion he has got he has got through meritorious services?

Questions

Cinema Entertainments (Fire Precautions)

asked the Home Secretary (1) if he has any power to enforce precautionary measures for the safety of life from fire in buildings of a civil character erected on land owned, leased, or occupied by the Government for Army purposes, as, for instance, the Young Men's Christian Association huts, where two lives were recently lost; whether the Cinematograph Act applies to the cinema entertainments given in such temporary buildings of a highly inflammable character; if so, what authority should see that the requirements of the Act are complied with; (2) if he has any power to enforce precautionary measures for the safety of life from fire in munition works owned, leased, or occupied by the Ministry of Munitions, either under the Factory Acts, the Explosives Act, or any other enactments or regulations; if he has any similar powers over hostels, institutes, or club rooms, such as Young Men's Christian Association huts used by civil workers situated within the boundaries of or in connection with such works; and (3) whether, in the event of his not having sufficient powers to enforce precautionary measures for the safty of life from fire in premises of a civil character on land occupied by the Government for Army purposes or as munition works, he will consider the advisability of suggesting to the Departments concerned that the necessary precautions be taken; and whether he would further make representations to the Young Men's Christian Association, the Church Army, the Salvation Army, and similar bodies who generously provide hostels, institutes and club rooms, that every endeavour should be made to decrease the risk of fire and facilitate the means of rapid exit for the users and the staff engaged on premises under their control?

I have no authority in regard to the class of buildings mentioned, and the exhibition of cinema films in such buildings, being in Crown premises, would not come within the Cinematograph Act. The matter is one entirely within the jurisdiction of the War Office, who, I understand, have it under their consideration, and I will draw their attention to the hon. Member's suggestions.

Victoria Cross

asked the Home Secretary if he is aware that Sergeant Taylor, of the Australian Field Force, was sentenced to six months' imprisonment at Westminster Police Court in February last for having put on a Victoria Cross in order to address a recruiting meeting in Trafalgar Square, believing that by this he might appeal more successfully for recruits; whether he is aware that this soldier was one of the few survivors of the Gallipoli expedition, where he was wounded; whether any representations have been made to the Government by the High Commissioner for Australia or the Prime Minister of Australia on this man's behalf; and will the case be immediately considered with a view to the remission of the remainder of the sentence?

No representations have reached me from the High Commissioner for Australia or the Australian Government in regard to this case, but it was brought to my notice by a petition from the prisoner himself, and I am, making inquiry with regard to it.

Will the right hon. Gentleman inform me later of the result of his inquiry?

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that the Victoria Cross is awarded to the parents or representatives of a soldier or sailor who has earned it but is killed in action before receiving it, and in view of the fact that the Distinguished Service Order, the Military Cross, the Distinguished Conduct Medal, and the Military Medal, and the corresponding naval distinctions are, like the Victoria Cross, awarded for gallantry in action, he will consider the propriety of awarding in proper cases all such distinctions by way of posthumous honours in like manner as is done in regard to the Victoria Cross?

The question of the extension of the present practice in regard to the posthumous award of the naval and military distinctions mentioned by the hon. and learned Member is being considered. The Generals Commanding-in-Chief in the various theatres of war are being consulted in the matter, and I hope soon to make an announcement on the subject.

Munitions

Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)

asked the Minister of Munitions if the Central Board (Liquor Traffic) proposes to acquire all licences for the sale of intoxicating liquors in Carlisle; if Carlisle is a munitions area; and if houses are to be acquired, how are they to be valued and the funds provided for payment?

Carlisle has great importance from the munitions standpoint, and the question of the control of the sale and supply of intoxicating liquor there is under special consideration. If any steps taken involve the payment of compensation out of Government funds, the amount of the compensation will be a matter for the Royal Commission.

Messrs. Vickers' Works, Erith

asked whether the canvass on the twelve-hour shift which re- cently took place at Messrs. Vickers', at Erith, was initiated by a representative of the firm, who asked one or two girls to canvass the other girls in one of the shops; whether they only canvassed one shift and did not canvass the other two shifts in this shop; and whether none of the other shops were canvassed?

I am informed that the head foreman in charge of the whole department concerned in the change of shifts requested his assistants to ascertain the general opinion of the female workers with reference to the change, and that as a result arrangements were made for the canvassing of the workers, but that the actual arrangements for this canvassing were left in the hands of the women workers themselves, and that the canvassers were not selected by the firm.

Have any steps been taken for replacing in other works the women so displaced?

Have any arrangements been made for a recanvass in view of the great doubt as to whether they are in favour of the change?

I think the hon. Member will see a reply to a subsequent question which covers that point.

asked the Minister of Munitions, whereas he has power under the Munitions of War (Amendment) Act to give directions as to the rate of wages and the hours of labour of female workers in munition works, whether he will give directions to Messrs. Vickers, Maxim to abandon in their works at Erith the twelve-hour shifts for female workers who are engaged on what was formerly men's work on the ground that the Health of Munition Workers' Committee has reported that women are unable to bear the strain of long hours as well as men?

As I have stated in reply to previous questions on this subject, the substitution of two for three shifts at Messrs. Vickers' Works at Erith was carried through as an experiment with the assent of the Home Office and the Ministry of Munitions. In the circumstances, it is clearly necessary to wait for the result of the experiment before issuing any instructions on the matter. Moreover, arbitration on the subject is in progress before the Board of Trade.

Is the reason why the women have been put on the twelve hours' shift because of the difficulty of getting a sufficient number of women to work the eight hours' shift?

Has the hon. Gentleman satisfied himself that it is decent to work these women twelve hours in succession, which involves taking them away from their home for fifteen hours?

The women do not work twelve hours in succession. They work sixty hours in one week and fifty-eight hours in the following week. On inquiry the hon. Member will find that this is considerably within the Regulations, both of the Home Office and the Admiralty.

Is it not a fact that this change involves an increase of seven hours work for each woman per week?

I think that is what it does involve. I have explained the circumstances many times to the House. It is an experiment which was only permitted after it had been specifically assented to by the Home Office Chief Inspector and our own Sunday Labour Committee.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether, in view of the great discontent existing in the minds of the women and others concerned, he will order the firm immediately to put these women back on the eight hours' shift?

The question of discontent is one on which I find it very difficult to satisfy myself. I have endeavoured to find out. However, the whole matter is before the Board of Trade and a subject of arbitration, and I am sure they will deal with the matter fairly. If it is found to be harmful to the women, we shall have no hesitation whatever in putting them back on the eight hours' shift.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the firm in question is, as a matter of fact, on principle opposed to the eight hours' shift?

Health of Workers (Weekly Rest)

asked what steps have been taken to carry out the recommendation of the Health of Munition Workers' Committee in favour of a weekly period of rest for all munition workers; and to what extent it has been found possible to reduce Sunday labour?

My right hon. Friend is keenly alive to the importance of securing to munition workers an unbroken rest period of not less than twenty-four hours weekly. A circular recommending that this weekly rest period (preferably on Sundays) should be secured to all workers was sent out on 7th December, 1915, to all controlled establishments. This was followed by an inquiry addressed to each establishment, and a Committee was subsequently appointed to deal systematically with the subject. There are many practical difficulties in the way of securing the entire abolition of Sunday labour, but substantial progress has been made, and, out of 2,383 firms from whom particulars have been obtained, 1,440 are now employing no Sunday labour. Of those firms who work on Sundays sixty have notified the Department that all workers are provided with a rest period of at least continuously twenty-four hours each week. Constant and pressing attention is being given to the matter, and it is hoped that the number of firms employing no Sunday labour will shortly be largely increased.

Loans to Contractors

asked on what basis applications for financial assistance by companies having contracts with his Department are granted or refused; and if no loans are made unless the security for the capital advanced is deemed adequate?

The urgency of the demand for the munitions concerned, together with the repute of the contractor and his ability to execute the order within the stipulated time, are primary considerations in allowing or withholding financial assistance. The applications received vary greatly and each case is dealt with upon its merits.

Huts for Women Workers

asked whether it is proposed to erect living huts for the women shortly to be employed at munition works?

The Ministry of Munitions have made careful investigations at every munitions centre where there appeared to be any likelihood of a shortage of accommodation for munition workers, and in every place where a need for additional housing was discovered which could not be met in any other way the Department have built, or are building, huts or hostels or houses. At the particular place which, as I understand, my hon. Friend has in mind, inquiry showed that on the information at present available there is no need for additional huts for women workers to be built.

Lieutenant Plummer (Assault Charge)

asked the Lord Advocate whether he will ascertain by whose authority the civil proceedings, in the case of assault by Lieutenant Plummer, on Charles Stewart at Aberlour, of the 3rd December, was stopped, after the case had been taken up by the police and reported to the Chief Constable of Banffshire; and whether he will take steps to see that the case is heard in a Civil Court on proceedings brought by the police?

The proceedings at the instance of the Procurator-fiscal in this case were abandoned by him, in the exercise of his discretion, in consequence of a communication which he received from the Garrison Commander at Aberdeen, stating that Lieutenant Plummer had been dealt with according to military law, and suggesting that any further action appeared to be unnecessary. In view of all the circumstances, I am not disposed to order proceedings to be reinstituted.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the Court of Inquiry into the Aberlour recruiting case has arrived at a decision; if so, whether he can state the effect of such decision; and, if not, what steps will be taken to make the decision public?

The Court of Inquiry found that Second-Lieutenant Plummer received gross provocation; that no attempt was made to suppress proceedings by giving Charles Stewart money—the 7s. 6d. was paid at instigation of Provost Morrison; that Lieutenant-Colonel Leith was justified in expressing the opinion to the newspaper that the anonymous letter should not be produced in the Press; that Lieutenant-Colonel Leith in his letter of the 16th December to Mr. McGowan was justified in saying "of course, nothing can appear in the Press"; that the statement "that a great many of the men had had too much to drink and as the result there was much bad language being used" was not inaccurate in its application to Charles Stewart. The Court was an open one and the Press were admitted.

Prize Money (Distribution)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention has been called to the account of the receipts and payments of the Paymaster-General for Supreme Court business on behalf of the Admiralty Division in Prize for the period ended the 31st March, 1915, with copy of the correspondence with the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon, presented to this House; whether he has considered the statement of the Treasury in the letter dated 6th March, 1916, embodied in this Return, namely, that such an arrangement affords special advantages which it would be difficult to secure otherwise, in particular, while fully safeguarding the funds against improper application it leaves for determination, as and when convenient, the question whether or how far the Crown should exercise the powers, which my Lords think must be admitted that it possesses, namely, the power of distribution among the officers and men of His Majesty's ships of the net proceeds of prizes, which are droits of the Crown, and the power of bounty by way of redress of hardships; and whether he will now take the necessary steps to secure the distribution of the net proceeds of prizes to the officers and men in the Fleet who are entitled to their share of such Prize Money as has been realised?

Yes, Sir. The matters raised in my hon. Friend's question are receiving careful consideration. As regards the distribution of Prize Money—as distinguished from Prize Bounty, with which I am about to deal in other answers—I am afraid the change in the system whereby the proceeds of droits of the Crown are to be distributed to the whole Navy instead of only to the captors, makes it impossible to do other than await the close of hostilities before proceeding to the award and distribution of Prize Money.

How does the right hon. Gentleman propose to prevent injustice being done to those men who may die before the Prize Money has been distributed?

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty (1) whether in a combined action by ships and airmen entitling them to bounty money, the whole of it is divided between the sailors and the airmen get nothing; and, if so, will he say why there should fee this distinction; and (2) whether bounty money is payable to members of the Royal Naval Air Service who may sink a submarine?

The grant of Prize Bounty under the Naval Prize Act, 1864, is limited to such of the officers and crews of His Majesty's ships of war as are actually present at the taking or destroying of any armed ship of any of His Majesty's enemies. Legislative authority will be required for any amendment. It is the intention to extend the award to aircraft. Of course, the effect of the extension would be retrospective so as to cover any successful attack made before the legislative amendment were secured.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware of the decision of the learned President of the High Court, Admiralty Division, in the case of the captain of His Majesty's Ship "Carmania," on 27th March, 1916; whether he will submit to the House a Return of ships whose officers and men were entitled to present claims for the destruction of enemy ships under the provisions of the Order in Council of 2nd March, 1915; and whether he will expedite the payment of such claims as were acknowledged to be legitimate in accordance with Section 42 of the Naval Prize Act, 1864, as confirmed by the declaration of the Order in Council of 2nd March, 1915?

We are, of course, aware of the decision respecting the "Carmania," and action is being taken for the distribution of the award to the persons entitled to participate therein. I am afraid I cannot promise the Return asked for. It is not for us to say which ships' officers and crews are entitled to prize bounty. That is for the judges of the Prize Court. We shall certainly assist in every way in the preparation and presentation of claims and expedite payment when award is made. But in order to prevent disappointment, I would remind those whom it may concern that it may not always be expedient from the point of view of the public interest to disclose in open Court the details of an action. In such a case I am afraid claimants may have to wait for the determination of the matter, and payment of award made till after the close of hostilities.

By the latter part of his reply, does the right hon. Gentleman mean that there is a general rule that prize bounty would not be distributed until after the end of the War?

No. It is subject to the public interest. My hon. Friend will readily see that there are cases in which it would not be in the public interest to give the details in open Court.

British Merchant Tonnage

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will give the names of the gentlemen who were appointed by the Government as a Commission or Committee of Inquiry to proceed to the Mediterranean to inquire into and ascertain the true facts regarding the wasteful use of requisitioned British merchant tonnage by the military and naval authorities in the Mediterranean; whether he will state when these gentlemen returned to England; whether they have handed their Report to the Government; and whether he will issue this Report in the form of a White Paper, or otherwise, to Members of this House?

The members of the Commission appointed were: Imperial needs." The Commission returned to England on the 21st December, and they handed over their Report to the Government on the 1st January last. This Report, as obviously would be the case, deals with many matters which I do not think it would be in the public interest to publish. It has been the subject of very careful consideration and steps have been taken, and are being taken, to carry out a number of the suggestions made in it.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the steamer "Hellenes," requisitioned by his Department in Buenos Ayres to proceed in ballast to the West Coast, South America, to load a cargo of nitrate for this country, was allowed to leave the nitrate ports and prosecute her voyage to this country with over 4,000 tons of empty space in the ship although she called at a River Plate Port to bunker; and, if so, why in this case his Department did not adopt the course followed in the employment of the requisitioned steamer "Araby," the space in which was utilised by the Government agent at Valparaiso to carry an intermediate cargo of Chilian beans from West Coast ports to Buenos Ayres, consigned to Brauss, Mahn, and Company, the imperial German commercial agents at Buenos Ayres, and that, after discharge of these Chilian beans, the space in the ship was filled with hay by our Government agent at Buenos Ayres for the use of our Allies or ourselves?

The steamship "Hellenes" was requisitioned to meet an urgent demand, and loaded a full cargo of nitrate in Chili. The vessel was so loaded because the Department was being pressed to carry the maximum amount of nitrate. My hon. Friend appears to be misinformed as to the amount of unoccupied space on board. As the steamer was down to her marks, she could not have loaded Government hay in the Plate. Moreover, Government hay was not available at the Plate at the time the "Hellenes" would arrive there.

Does my right hon. Friend not see that by shipping a little less nitrate this ship could have called into another port and loaded oats for this country at a cheaper price, in a similar manner to that which was adopted in the case of Italy?

That is, no doubt, true, but we were called upon to carry the maximum amount of nitrate. She was up to her mark. Still, there was some space unoccupied, but not so much as my hon. Friend thinks.

Could not my right hon. Friend have employed a tramp steamer with much less measurement space, and so have saved this tonnage?

Royal Navy (Armament and Construction)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is now satisfied that any deficiency in guns for the Fleet is now being amply provided for; and whether he is in a position to inform the House that the Board of Admiralty is now satisfied with the progress which is being made with naval construction of every kind necessary for the full efficiency of the Fleet?

I must refer my hon. Friend to the statement made by the First Lord in introducing the Navy Estimates on the 7th March, in which he dealt fully with the whole question of new construction and armament.

Military Service

Men Attaining Age of Eighteen Years

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the need for men in the Army, he will propose an Amendment to the Military Service Act, 1916, so as to bring within its scope all men who have reached the age of eighteen since 15th August, 1915, and also all men on attaining the age of eighteen?

I answered an identical question put by the hon. Member on the 10th instant. I can add nothing to that answer.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the answer that he gave to me was that he would deal with this in answer to the next question, and in view of the fact that I have been putting this down for a month will he undertake to answer it to-morrow when he makes his statement?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, now that Group 1 is being called up at eighteen and a half years of age he can see his way to transfer to the units formed from the same all lads still under nineteen serving with the Colours, and agree not to send them out of the country until they have reached that age?

Number of Men Available

asked whether the Cabinet have yet determined the maximum number of men that can be withdrawn from industry to serve in the Army; and whether the figures of the number of men enlisted will be given to the House either in public or secret session before any extension of the Military Service Act, 1916, is proposed to the House?

I must refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Tynemouth, on the 13th instant.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make a specific statement on this point when he makes his statement to-morrow?

asked whether it is still the opinion of the majority of the Cabinet and Lord Kitchener that the Military Service Act, 1916, will give the country sufficient men to ensure victory?

I must ask my hon. Friend to await the statement I shall make to-morrow.

Extension of Compulsion

asked the Prime Minister whether, in order to help the House in arriving at a right decision as to the influence to be exercised on the course of the War by the extension of compulsion, the Government will issue next Wednesday representative extracts from the Press of our Allies, neutrals, and enemy countries showing the beneficial effect exerted by the knowledge that this Parliament had adopted a first instalment of compulsion under the Military Service Act, 1916?

Conscientious Objectors

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he will grant an inquiry into the conduct of the tribunals under the Military Service Act with the object of getting unbiassed examination of conscientious objectors in accordance with the words and spirit of the Act; and whether he is receiving evidence that no real attempt is made in many tribunals to ascertain or understand the position of conscientious objectors?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. My right hon. Friend has received some statements to the effect mentioned in the second part of the question, and he is looking into these cases.

asked the President of the Local Government Board how many conscientious objectors have been cast into prison for refusing to obey the judgments of the military service tribunals; and whether they are fed on bread and water and their clothes taken from them?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. I have heard of one conscientious objector who refused to fulfil the condition of his exemption and was sent to prison on failing to pay a fine of 40s., and possibly there may be one or two other cases. Such prisoners would not be fed on bread and water, but would receive the usual prison diet. Unless placed in the first division they would in the ordinary course wear prison clothing.

Am I to understand that only two or three at the most of these men have been sent to gaol?

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the case of Dennis Sydney, a conscientious objector, who appealed for exemption from the Military Service Act, 1916, at a sitting of the East Central Appeal Tribunal, Town Hall, Dewsbury; whether he is aware that the mayor of Batley, a member of the tribunal, protested on behalf of the minority of the tribunal against this break-of the Regulations; and, if so, will steps be taken to nullify the decision of the tribunal?

asked the Attorney-General whether there has been submitted to him a circular issued and signed on behalf of the joint committees of the Friends' Service Committee and the No-Conscription Fellowship, in which it is stated that the Government should understand that the men spoken for can, under no circumstances, become part of the Non-Combatant Corps, that their objection covers any form of military service, combatant or non-combatant, and generally any form of civil alternative, and that, as the result of appearing before the Appeal Tribunals one or other of the Government conditions is imposed, the only course open is to await the penalties attaching to deserters; and seeing that these individuals are thus setting up their individual convictions against the national will and encouraging desertion, will he say what action he proposes to take?

The various points raised by my hon. Friend are not being overlooked. The Attorney-General has nothing to add to his answer of the 12th inst.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, in the case of men holding a certificate of exemption from combatant service only who are unable on ground of conscience to undertake military duties but have lodged a request before their local tribunal for a review of their certificates with a view to obtaining exemption conditional upon being engaged in work of national importance, he will issue instructions that these men shall not be called up for military duty until the tribunal has taken a decision upon their application?

I do not think any new fact has arisen since these men went before the tribunal in the first case and were given exemption from combatant service only to justify the delay inherent in what my hon. Friend suggests.

A new fact is the appointment of a Government Committee to deal with the cases?

It is true that a Government Committee has been appointed, but to say that it is appointed to deal with the case is, perhaps, stretching the terms of reference rather far.

Friendly Society Officials

asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, if he can see his way to secure exemption from military service for the head secretary or other official of friendly societies with a membership of over 500 members who may be exclusively engaged in administering the National Insurance Acts, by including such official in the list of reserved occupations, with a view to avoiding a breakdown in the efficient management of the State section of these societies?

I have already given this matter my careful consideration, and while I fully recognise the necessity of avoiding such a breakdown as is indicated in the question, I am satisfied that the course suggested by the hon. Member would not be the best method of effecting that object. I am sending the hon. Member a copy of a letter showing the course which approved societies are being advised to pursue in the matter.

Arrests and Imprisonments

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War (1) what action he has taken with regard to the conduct of the military authorities at Mossley, Lancashire, who illegally arrested Samuel Dennis Munns, of Mossley, a conscientious objector, on Saturday last, before he had been tried by a Civil Court and found to be a deserter; and (2) whether a young man named A. Cork, a conscientious objector to military service, was brought before a Civil Court at East Ham on 31st March; whether he was fined £2 and was handed over to the military authorities; where he is now; whether he has refused to obey military orders; and, if so, what punishment he is undergoing for that offence?

asked (1) where Walter Lewis, late of 55, Bishop Road, Horfield, Bristol, is at present confined; why he was kept in the guard room at Bristol on Saturday, 9th, and Sunday, 10th April; why his parents were informed that they might see him at 9 a.m. on Monday, but when they appeared at that hour they were informed that he had been removed to Reading at 7 a.m.; is the man at present under confinement; and, if so, whether in a military or civil prison; (2) if he will explain why Samuel D. Munns, of 24, Hanover Street, Mossley, near Manchester, was arrested under the Military Service Act, 1916, and refused his request to be taken before the Civil Court; why he was taken straight to Ashton-under-Lyne barracks and locked up without the authority of a Civil Court; what action he has taken or intends to take against the military officer responsible for this; will he order the immediate release of Munns in order that his case may be taken before a Civil Court and an opportunity given to him to take civil action for illegal arrest; and (3) if two conscientious objectors who have been dragged into the Army and have been attached to the combatant branch of the Army, namely, the 21st Battalion of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, have been court-martialled for an alleged refusal to obey the order of a superior officer; what are the names of these men; if these men have been condemned to two years' imprisonment with hard labour; if they are confined in a military or civil prison; what was the nature of the order that they refused to obey; why these men, who have been given non-combatant service, were transferred to a combatant unit; what right the officer of a combatant unit had to give orders to non-combatants; whether the Army Regulations permit a sentence of two years' imprisonment with hard labour for such an alleged offence; and will he call for and give to the House a full report of all the circumstances and proceedings in this case?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the arrest of a man named Winter, of Poole's Park, North Islington, on a charge of being an absentee from the Royal Field Artillery; is he aware that Winter was taken to Hornsey Road Police Station and from there to North London Police Court, and thence to Aldershot under an armed escort; that, after being in the police cells for the best part of the day and then marched through the public streets, he was informed at Aldershot that he was not the man wanted and was sent home; that Winter had been taken to the police station three weeks previously on the same charge and was allowed to go; is he aware that the police-sergeant who arrested Winter received a reward of 10s. by direction of the magistrate when Winter was handed over to the escort; and will he investigate the circumstances and say whether Winter is entitled to any reparation?

Seeing that that is the sterotyped reply I get to questions of this character, and seeing also that these questions have been on the Paper for three or four days, I want to ask if there has not been time to give the right hon. Gentleman opportunity to possess the necessary information to answer the questions?

I hope my hon. Friend is not going to suggest to the House that when I say inquiries will be made he receives no answer to the inquiries when the results are received. I have sent the hon. Member many letters informing him of the results of inquiries. Two or three days is not enough, not nearly enough; it very often takes ten, twelve, or fifteen before you can get complete answers to the inquiries.

Will the right hon. Gentleman explain why it should be necessary in making such a simple inquiry as to whether a man has been illegally imprisoned, and is still in prison, to take twelve or thirteen days?

Inoculation

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that No. 6494, Private P. W. Davies, 4/1 City of London Regiment, a conscientious objector to war, was taken to Salisbury under military escort on the 5th instant; that on the 8th instant he was taken on parade for inoculation, and to his protest and objection the doctor replied by sticking the needle into his arm, and that several others were treated in a like manner; in view of this, whether he will state if inoculation is now made compulsory; and, having regard to the fact that Davies is willing to engage upon agricultural or other similiar work of national importance, whether he could consider the question of his release on that condition?

Medical Examinations

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Mr. Arthur Thomas Ellis, late of 26, Mundania Road, Honor Oak, S.E., a solicitor, aged thirty-seven, an attested man, wrote on the 26th February, 1916, to Captain Howard, recruiting officer, at Camberwell Road, asking that he might be examined by a Medical Board at once in order that he might know how he stood, in accordance with the advertised suggestion of the War Office; that Captain Howard wrote him in reply on 3rd March that he could be at once examined for this purpose, and that he was accordingly examined by the Medical Board on 9th March, at the Camberwell Baths, and was informed that he would be placed in Class B4, as only fit for clerical duties, and would not be called up except after two months' notice and probably not at all, and need not report when his group was called; whether, notwithstanding this undertaking, Mr. Ellis was, on the 28th March, called on to join up on the 5th April, and compelled on that day to undergo another medical examination before the same Board, when he was passed as fit for labour abroad, and on the following day was sent to join a labour battalion; and whether, in view of the fact that Mr. Ellis relied and acted upon the result of the first medical examination and the assurance that he would not be called up without two months' notice, he may be put back into the class into which he was first placed by the Medical Board, and that the undertaking given to him that he would not be called up without two months' notice may be carried out?

The president of the Medical Board before whom Mr. A. T. Ellis appeared on the 5th April reports that he saw him there for the first time on that date and that he was found to be of good physique and quite fit for labour work abroad to which he was classified. I am afraid that, in view of the present needs of the Army, there are not sufficient grounds for reconsidering the decision in his case.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will make further inquiry into the case of Fred Capper, who was kidnapped by the military at Glossop on 5th March, seeing that the report supplied to him by the recruiting officer at Glossop is not in accord with the facts of the case; will he demand the production of the medical rejection certificate which was stolen from Capper by the recruiting officer, of which the hon. Member for Blackburn has a copy, and which is a certificate of unconditoinal rejection and not temporary, as stated by the recruiting officer; and will he have the officer tried by court-martial for giving untrue statements to the War Office?

I have sent my hon. Friend a full statement about this case. According to my information, the certificate given read as follows: "I hereby certify that I have examined Fred Capper, and find he is temporarily unfit for His Majesty's Forces." The fact that the certificate issued was temporary is confirmed by the entries made in the office records. I do not see that there is any cause for any further inquiry.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say from whom he obtained that information?

I obtained it through the usual channels—the command, the brigade, and the commanding officer.

No, not at all. The usual channels are the three different commanders in order of power.

Exemptions and Appeals

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the action of Major Garland, of the Ellon Tribunal, in which he explained to the tribunal that because John Forbes, a farm servant who had been granted a temporary exemption, had asked for higher wages from the farmer he had called him up again immediately; whether he has sanctioned the military representative interfering in a man's private affairs; and what action he proposes to take?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that yellow forms summoning men to report themselves are being issued by the recruiting authorities at Wandsworth Town Hall indiscriminately to men whose cases are under appeal; whether his attention has been called to the case of Thomas P. Robinson, 295, Franciscan Road, Tooting, who, though the advisory committee and the military representative had agreed to his exemption, was arrested on the 4th instant, kept in gaol during that night, and brought before the South Western Police Court on the 5th, when he was discharged; whether he proposes to offer any redress to this man; and whether he will give instructions that more care be exercised in the issue of the notices, so that similar blunders may be prevented in the future?

As I informed my hon. Friends on 13th April, inquiry is being made. Until it is complete I can add nothing to the answer given on 13th April.

Questions

Taxation (Ireland)

asked the Prime Minister, having regard to the taxation of Ireland, found by the Financial Relations Commission to have been excessive, never since remedied, doubled since the War began, and now being further increased, and to the consequent anxiety in Ireland, if he will say when the House can devote a day to the discussion of this subject so vital to Ireland?

I do not think that a discussion on this subject will serve any useful purpose at the present time.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman recognise the importance of this subject in Ireland?

I desire to give notice that on the Motion for Adjournment I will call attention to this subject; and I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, on the day of Adjournment for Easter, he will arrange for the House to meet at twelve o'clock and suspend the Eleven o'Clock Rule?

Regimental Institutes (Board of Control)

asked the Prime Minister whether, seeing that all the civilian members of the Board of Control of Regimental Institutes have been dismissed, he will say whether he or Lord Kitchener sanctioned this step, seeing that the board comprised some of the most prominent and successful business men in the country, including a lead- ing representative of the co-operative societies; whether he has any information that the work was well done by the late board; and can he make a statement on the matter?

I have nothing to add to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for War to the hon. Member for Peterborough on the 10th instant.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Under-Secretary for War gave us no information at all?

Old Age Pensions

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the distress amongst old age pensioners owing to the increased cost of living consequent upon the War; and whether he will consider the possibility of making a temporary addition to the pensions out of the National Distress Fund during the continuance of the War?

With regard to the first part of the question, I must refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for the Attercliffe Division of Sheffield on the 6th April, to which I have nothing to add. With regard to the second part, the Government Committee on Distress have had this suggestion under consideration and have decided that the National Relief Fund cannot properly be used to assist old age pensioners who are merely suffering from the increased cost of living.

Has the right hon. Gentleman considered the question of relieving old age pensioners by the distribution of food at fixed prices?

Seizure of Merchant Vessels (Orders in Council)

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that, under a recent decision in the Courts by the Judicial Committee, an Order in Council under which a vessel was seized was held to be illegal; whether he can state what expenses the country will be involved in by this decision in legal and compensation expenses covering the case in question and similar cases; and whether the Order in Council was a secret one or one published in the "London Gazette"?

The decision in question did not refer to the seizure of any vessel, but to an order made by the Prize Court authorising the Crown to requisition for military use certain copper which was the subject of prize proceedings. The order of the Prize Court was made under the Prize Rules, which are not secret, but were duly published in the "London Gazette." The decision of the Judicial Committee was to the effect that having regard to the evidence the authority to requisition the copper should not have been given. No order was made for payment of costs by the Crown and no question of compensation will arise unless and until the claim which is still pending for condemnation of the copper fails. No similar case is known to be pending.

asked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the decision of the Judicial Committee in the "Zamora" appeal case, the Government now recognise elements of danger of secret Orders in Council; and whether they will now adopt the suggestion of the hon. Member for Maidstone which was refused last Session, and submit the whole of these secret Orders in Council to a Committee of the House?

Orders in Council are not secret, but are published in the "Gazette." The question is therefore misconceived.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that when I asked the Prime Minister a question he stated that a number of Orders in Council were kept private in the public interest?

This Order in Council was by no means kept secret. It was published in the "Gazette."

Are these Orders in Council held to be valid in face of this decision, and of the practical repudiation of the Declaration of London, on which they purport to be founded?

Prime Minister of Australia

Industrial and Labour Problems

asked the Prime Minister whether it is intended to take advantage of the presence in this country of the Prime Minister of the Commonwealth of Australia to confer with him as to industrial and labour problems arising out of the War?

Yes, Sir. The right hon. Gentleman has already given His Majesty's Government the benefit of his advice at a meeting of the Cabinet and the War Committee, and we hope to make further use of his services.

Cabinet Committees

asked the Prime Minister whether he will instruct a Return to be made to Parliament of the terms of reference to, and the composition of, all the Committees which have been appointed by the Cabinet or heads of Departments since the beginning of the War?

Command Paper 7855 is being brought up to date in accordance with a promise made in the House by my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to the hon. Member for East Edinburgh. The new Paper will probably be issued before the end of the month.

Questions

Disabled British Prisoners

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he could arrange to supply from any source within his control a ship adequately fitted to convey at regular intervals disabled British prisoners of war from the Dutch coast to England, seeing that the Dutch Government now declines to continue that particular service on account of the risks involved therein?

I am glad to say that arrangements have been made to use a hospital ship for this service. Of course, it cannot be guaranteed that one will always be available, but in so far as may be possible, the suggestion of my hon. Friend will be carried out.

Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty the names of the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty and their respective functions?

Military and Naval Officers (Railway Fares)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether the privilege granted to military officers in uniform proceeding on leave to obtain a first-class return ticket on payment of single fare applies equally to naval officers in uniform proceeding similarly on leave; and, if not, will he state the reason?

Deptford Naval Staff

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty why it is considered necessary to have a naval captain, a naval commander, two lieutenants, and eight naval ratings at Deptford, where troops do not embark and which is only used to ship stores and materiel; whether the loading of stores there is carried out under the supervision of a numerous military supply staff, with an officer of field rank in charge; and whether, in view of the need of economy, he will consider the advisability of reducing the staff for the superintendence of the coaling and general working of two ships?

The loading of stores and the working of the ships is in the hands of the Naval Transport Staff, not of the Military Supply Staff, and the numbers are not more than sufficient to deal efficiently with the Service. The reference to two ships indicates that my hon. Friend is misinformed as to the amount of work to be done. It is not considered that any reduction can be made in the Naval Transport Staff, and it must be borne in mind that the Military Supply Staff has nothing whatever to do with sea transport beyond sending down to the wharf what has to be shipped.

Pensions (Scotland)

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he can now say if it is proposed to set up a sub-committee of the Statutory Committee to deal with pensions, etc., for Scotland?

The Statutory Committee consider that it would be premature at present to set up sub-committees for the different countries in the United Kingdom. When the local committees for which the Naval and Military War Pensions Act provides have been established and have had time to ascertain the scope of their work, the question of the desirability of constituting any bodies having control over larger areas than those of the local committees can with their assistance be further considered.

Department of Agriculture (Ireland)

asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) why the Department has not provided itself with an adequate female clerical staff since the outbreak of the War, in view of the number of qualified girls available in Ireland; and, seeing that Returns issued fifteen months after the close of the year to which they relate are of little practical value, whether the Department's Returns will in future be prepared and issued in due time or discontinued?

The depletion of the Department's staff, owing to enlistments in His Majesty's Forces, has been the main cause of the delay referred to. The Department are of opinion that it would be difficult to obtain a substitute clerical staff, whether male or female, competent, without undergoing a considerable period of training, to deal with Returns of the nature published by the Department.

Financial Relations Commission

asked the Attorney-General for Ireland by whose direction and under what authority the Irish police are now watching, noting, and reporting the names, and so far as able the words of speakers at meetings claiming restitution of the excessive taxes found by the Financial Relations Commission to have been obtained from Ireland; whether the impression thereby created, that this economical agitation is to be treated as an offence under the Defence of the Realm Act, is correct; and whether any of the Reports of the Financial Relations Commission or any part thereof is now deemed an illegal document?

No action has been directed or taken by the police in reference to meetings or speeches dealing solely with questions of taxation. The reports of the Financial Relations Commission are not deemed illegal documents.

Branch Post Offices

asked the Postmaster-General whether the closing of the branch post-office at Upper Baker Street temporarily, as a war measure, is covered by his pledge given to the National Joint Committee of Post Office Associations on the 6th ultimo?

The post office at Upper Baker Street will probably be reopened after the War; but a question of the provision of public facilities is not regarded as coming within the scope of the pledge to which the hon. Member refers.

asked the Postmaster-General whether the office he proposes to establish in Crouch End will be a Crown office; whether he contemplates placing a protegé of the local postmaster, a young temporary woman, in charge of this office at a wage of £2 1s. 6d. per week when there are many established women available; and whether, in view of the arbitration award of the Gibb Committee, as stated in paragraph 74 of the First Report, and read in conjunction with paragraph 936 of the Report of the Holt Committee, he proposes to take any action in the matter?

The new branch post office, in Crouch End, will be a Crown office. The officer in charge will, for the present, be an established post office servant.

Prison Warders (Scotland)

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether a circular has been addressed to the Scottish prison warders stating that certain parts of their uniform will not be issued this year; whether he can state what the warders are being deprived of; whether they will require to supply these themselves; and whether this is depriving them of part of their remuneration?

I am informed that in order to avoid unnecessary expenditure the Prison Commissioners have issued an instruction that uniform caps in good contion now in wear shall not be replaced by new ones at the usual time, but shall be worn longer. This postponement of the issue of new caps does not deprive the warders of any part of their remuneration. They are not required to supply the caps, and the caps supplied to them are returnable by them.

Algoma Central and Hudson Bay Railway Company

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Government are aware that, the Algoma Central and Hudson Bay Railway Company having defaulted on £2,000,000 of their first mortgage bonds, many small investors in the United Kingdom and France have suffered serious loss of income and capital, and are now threatened, under a scheme to be submitted to the Canadian Government, with a further loss of part of the security specifically mortgaged to these bonds; and whether, in these circumstances, the Colonial Office can make representations to the Canadian Government to endeavour to safeguard the interests of these investors?

The matter has not come before me officially in any way, and it is not one on which I could make representations to the Canadian Government.

Budget Proposals

Cocoa Duty

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the duty on foreign manufactured cocoa and chocolate imported into this country; and whether it will, in consequence of the provisions in the Budget, be modified and, if so, in what respect?

As I informed the hon. and learned Member for York on the 10th April, the Import Duty payable upon cocca preparations varies with the cocoa and sugar content of the preparation. The increase in the duties on cocoa and sugar imposed by the Budget Resolutions of 4th April will involve increases in these varying duties.

Double Income Tax

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he proposes to adopt this year any measures to mitigate the hardship of the imposition of double Income Tax within the Empire?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the statement on this subject to be found on page 9 of House of Commons Paper, No. 50.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will be prepared to receive, immediately after the Recess, a deputation on the subject of the double Income Tax?

I will gladly consider the possibility of complying with any request to meet a deputation on this subject that I may receive.

Entertainments Duty

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if exhibitions of pictures, such as the Royal Academy, will come under the provisions of the Finance Bill Amusements Tax; and if the exhibitions of the pictures of one man will also be affected?

Exhibitions of pictures, whether by a society or a private individual, will be liable to the tax unless they fall within the exemption in Clause. 1 (5) ( a ) of the Finance (New Duties) Bill as amended in Committee, or within the further exemption contemplated in the Amendment as to entertainments provided for partly educational or scientific purposes which stands on the Paper in my name. I am advised that the Royal Academy Exhibitions and the ordinary form of one-man exhibitions will be liable to the tax.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think that these one-man exhibitions are a form of amusement or that they need be taxed?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many people go to the Royal Academy more as a duty than for amusement?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if his attention has been called to the fact that turnstiles which will be passed as satisfactory by accountants cost over £15 each, and that if a considerable number are required for early delivery they could not be obtained anywhere in the world; and whether he proposes to take any action to deal with the matter during the interval?

The normal method of payment of the tax will be by ticket. The method of payment by turnstile will not be resorted to unless thè managers of the entertainment apply for it and the Board of Customs and Excise agree. I do not, therefore, think that the difficulty foreshadowed by the hon. Member will arise.

Income Tax (Wages)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much Income Tax has been collected on wages under the provisions of the Finance Act of 1915?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave on the 6th March to a question by the hon. Baronet the Member for Worcester. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy.

Questions

Inns of Court Officers' Training Corps

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that not a single one of the members of the Inns of Court Officers' Training Corps who were turned down by Captain Dawson after a minute or two's examination had been unfavourably reported upon by the commanding officer; that no inquiry was made as to their military knowledge or training, and no reference was made to the officers who had known and trained them for months; that the commanding officer wrote to the War Office to ask for a reconsideration of some of the cases in which the greatest injustice had been committed and was refused; that when the hon. and learned Member for Waterford asked for reconsideration in a particular case it was promptly granted, though it had been refused to the commanding officer; that some of the men so turned down had come from Overseas to fight for this country; and whether, in view of the dissatisfaction felt by the men and officers of the corps and by the public he can see his way to reconsider at least the cases mentioned by the commanding officer?

I have dealt with this subject both in debate in this House and with a deputation which waited upon me at the War Office. I am in hopes that a satisfactory conclusion has been or is being reached. But if my hon. Friend has further individual cases which he wishes to bring to my notice I shall be happy to consider them.

Walter Arnold Conduit

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether arrangements have been made for dismissing from the Army and handing over to the civil authorities for trial Walter Arnold Conduit, a fugitive from justice now in the Army, of whom Mr. Justice Dodd said in Dublin, on the 8th instant, that the least punishment that should be inflicted on him was penal servitude for life; and whether he will take care that this person shall neither be retained in the Army nor allowed to escape justice under any name?

If this man is a fugitive from justice, he can be arrested by the police; if afterwards convicted, the military authorities will consider the question of his retention in the Army. In the absence of information as to the corps in which the man is serving, I am unable to make inquiries into the matter.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman know that it is impossible for the police to arrest a man in the Army on the Continent?

It is not at all impossible for the police to arrest a man if he is a fugitive from the Army. On the contrary there is a body employed for that purpose.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware, as stated in the question, that he is not a fugitive from the Army, but from justice in the Army?

Mansfield Recruiting Circular

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the circular headed "England Expects Every Man to do his Duty," issued to married and single men in the Mansfield Division, in which the statement appears that a man would have no chance of appeal if he did not attest, was drafted by the Parliamentary Committee?

No, Sir; the circular in question was not drafted by the Central Parliamentary Recruiting Committee.

Army Commissions

asked the Under - Secretary of State for War whether, in view of his statement that, with certain exceptions, all candidates for commissions must serve or have served in the ranks, he will say if any alteration has been made since that statement in the method of granting commissions?

Instructions on this matter were issued on the 14th February. No fresh instructions have been issued since that date. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of those instructions in order that he may possess the latest information.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that that answer is in contradiction to his former statement?

No; I think my hon. Friend is under a misapprehension, or, perhaps, I expressed myself clumsily, as usual.

What I said, and still say, is that commissions are granted only to candidates who have either passed through a cadet training school or battalion or served in the ranks, and that is borne out by the instructions which I am sending my hon. Friend.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the question I have emoted the words he actually used?

asked what is the minimum age at which commissions are granted for the Royal Artillery, Household Cavalry, Cavalry Line Regiments, Foot Guards, and Army Service Corps, respectively?

Are you aware, Sir, that this is the ninth question, the hon. Baronet has on the Paper to-day?

It may be an oversight. Perhaps the hon. Baronet will give other hon. Members an opportunity.

Perhaps I may be allowed to answer it now. The answer to this question involves a considerable amount of detail and I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, send him a Paper which sets out all the information he desires. If, after reading it, he desires further information I am sure he will not hesitate to communicate with me.

Honourable Artillery Company (Transfers)

asked when men of the Honourable Artillery Company, who have been temporarily attached to the 2/13 London Regiment, in the 60th Division, will be transferred, according to promise, to their proper units?

The men referred to in the question, though transferred to the unit that they have selected, will remain attached to the battalion of the 60th Division in which they are now serving.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is a very widespread grievance, and that there is an intense feeling on the part of these men that they have been unfairly treated?

I regret very much that men should have any such feeling in the matter. All I would ask my hon. Friend is that he should inform his correspondents that they are serving in the part of the Army where their services are most required, and that in doing so they are undertaking a most patriotic duty. If he tells them that, I think they will accept the situation, not only cheerfully, but with enthusiasm.

May I give that answer as coming from the Army Council as well as from the right hon. Gentleman?

Home Service Troops (Miners)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is aware that amongst the Home Service troops stationed at Barrow there are a number of miners who are quite willing to be released for a period to work again in coal mines where labour is so short; and, as the bulk of these men have already had a year's training or more, if the War Office could see their way to allow a certain proportion of these men to be so released?

The relative needs of recruits for the Army and of labour for the coal mines are receiving the careful consideration of the Army Council in consultation with the Home Office.

Rank and File (Leave)

asked the Under secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the fact that a number of married men of the rank and file who have been for nine months and more in the Western theatre of war have had no leave; and whether steps will be taken, as far as military exigencies permit, to meet the request of such men for leave to come home for the usual periods?

I think I can say that, so far as military exigencies and administrative conditions permit, the request of such men as my hon. Friend mentioned, together with similar requests from other categories, will be met, but I must again impress upon the House, as I have previously done, that the matter is one for the discretion of the Commander-in-Chief and not for the War Office.

Province of Connaught (Training Facilities)

asked if there are within the province of Connaught facilities for training ground, ranges, and accommodation sufficient for the training of one battalion of Infantry; and, if so, will the Field-Marshal Commanding-in-Chief, Home Forces, arrange that at least one battalion of the Connaught Rangers is in future trained in the province of Connaught in the same way as at least one battalion of all other Irish regiments, except the Irish Guards, is at present trained in the province with which its name is associated?

I understand that there is no available accommodation in barracks or huts for a reserve battalion. Even if there were, there would be other considerations besides those of training to be taken into account.

East Surrey Regiments (Transfers)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that certain men in the 2/5th East Surrey Regiment were in June, 1915, separated from their battalion for medical and other reasons and attached to a provisional battalion; that the officer commanding the 2/5th East Surrey Regiment some time ago requested such of the men as were medically fit to sign Army Form E 624, as his battalion was only being kept back from service overseas in consequence of it being under strength; that several of the men thereupon signed the Imperial service obligation with a view to being transferred back to their old battalion; that instead of this they were transferred to the 2/22nd London Battalion, in which they have no friends or interest; and whether, having regard to the circumstances, he will take steps to get these men transferred to the unit which they originally joined and to which they are sentimentally attached?

Men of the 2/5th and 2/6th East Surrey Regiments, who were unwilling to undertake the Imperial service obligation, or were medically unfit for service overseas, or were immature, were formed into the 70th Provisional Battalion. Of these men, those who were willing to undertake the Imperial service obligation prior to the Military Service Act, 1916, coming into force have been attached to a unit of the 60th (London) Division. We have no knowledge of what the officer commanding 2/5th East Surrey Regiment said to these men. I should like to repeat here what I said just now in reply to a supplementary question by the hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King).

Shipping Freights (Baron Di San Severino)

( by Private Notice ) asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the public utterances in this country of Baron di San Severino, to the effect that the heavy charges for freights made by British shipowners are causing an unfortunate effect in Italy, and that the levying of a tax of 50 per cent. on war profits of shipowners and the requisitioning of steamers by the Admiralty at Blue Book rates have tended to this increase in freight charges to Italy; whether these statements can be substantiated; and whether Baron di Severino represents any Italian Chamber of Commerce or the Italian Chamber of Commerce in London, or the Italian Government?

With regard to the first two parts of the question, I understand that my hon. Friend is addressing a question on the subject to my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, who is in a position to give him more detailed information than I possess. I would, however, say that His Majesty's Government fully realise the importance of providing sufficient shipping facilities for Italy, and that they are doing everything in their power to ensure that ships are made available at a reasonable rate. With regard to the third part of the question, the answer is, so far as I am aware, in the negative.

Is my Noble Friend aware that the utterances of this gentleman are most mischievous, and calculated to create discord between our Allies and ourselves?

The hon. Member should not attempt to put his opinions into a supplementary question.

New Writ

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do issue his warrant to the Clerk of the Crown to make out a new writ for a Member to serve in this present Parliament in the room of the Rt. Hon. James Henry Mussen Campbell, His Majesty's Attorney-General for Ireland."

I wish to enter my protest against writs being moved contrary to the practice which obtained before the formation of the Coalition Government, under which twenty-four hours' notice was given through the Whips. Now that the Coalition Whips sit in the same office the House has no intimation, and Members are wholly unaware when writs are going to be sprung on the House. I do not wish to oppose this Motion on the merits of the case, but I strongly protest against the Whips taking action which, through proper notice not being given, deprives constituencies of the right of selecting their own candidates.

May I say that there has been no change whatever in the procedure with regard to moving the issue of writs since the Coalition was formed?

Question put, and agreed to.

Message from the Lords

That they has passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to amend the Courts (Emergency Powers) Act, 1914, in relation to officers and men of His Majesty's Forces, mortgagees, and companies." [Courts (Emergency Powers) (Amendment) Bill [ Lords. ]

Orders of the Day

Finance (New Duties) Bill

As amended, considered.

CLAUSE 1.—(Duty on Payments for Admission to Entertainments.)

(1) There shall, as from the fifteenth day of May, nineteen hundred and sixteen, be charged, levied and paid on all payments for admission to any entertainment as defined by this Act an Excise Duty (in this Act referred to as "Entertainments Duty") at the following rate (namely): —

Where the payment does not exceed 2d.

½d.

Exceeds 2d. and does not exceed 6d.

1d.

Exceeds 6d. and does not exceed 2s. 6d.

2d.

Exceeds 2s. 6d. and does not exceed 5s.

3d.

Exceeds 5s. and does not exceed 7s. 6d.

6d.

Exceeds 7s. 6d. and does not exceed 12s. 6d.

1s.

Exceeds 12s. 6d., 1s. for the first 12s. 6d. and 1s. for every 10s. or part of 10s. over 12s. 6d.

(2) No person shall be admitted for payment to any entertainment where the payment is subject to Entertainments Duty except—

(a) with a ticket stamped with a stamp (not before used) denoting that the proper Entertainments Duty has been paid; or

(b) in special cases with the approval of the Commissioners, through a barrier which automatically registers the number of persons passing through the barrier.

If any person is admitted for payment to any place of entertainment and the provisions of this Section are not complied with, the person admitted and the proprietor of the entertainment to which he is admitted shall be liable in respect of each offence to an Excise penalty of fifty pounds, and the proprietor shall in addition be liable to pay any duty which should have been paid.

(3) Entertainments Duty shall be charged in respect of each person admitted for payment, and, in the case of admission by ticket, shall be paid by means of the stamp on the ticket, and in the case of admission by barrier, shall be calculated and paid on the number of admissions through the barrier.

Entertainments Duty, in the case of admission by barrier, shall be recoverable from the proprietor, and may, if the amount of duty is less than fifty pounds, without prejudice to any other means of recovery, be recovered by the Commissioners summarily as a civil debt.

(4) Where the payment for admission to an entertainment is made by means of a lump sum paid as a subscription or contribution to any club, association, or society, or for a season ticket or for the right of admission to a series of entertainments or to any entertainment during a certain period of time, the Entertainments Duty shall be paid on the amount of the lump sum, but where the Commissioners are of opinion that the payment of a lump sum or any payment for a ticket represents payment for other privileges, rights or purposes besides the admission to an entertainment, or covers admission to an entertainment during any period for which the duty has not been in operation, the duty shall be charged on such an amount as appears to the Commissioners to represent the right of admission to entertainments in respect of which Entertainments Duty is payable.

(5) Entertainments Duty shall not be charged on payments for admission to any entertainment where the Commissioners are satisfied—

(a) that the whole of the takings thereof are devoted to charitable and philanthropic purposes without any charge on the takings for any expenses of the entertainment; or

(b) that the entertainment is of a wholly educational character (any question on that point to be determined in ease of difference by the Board of Education); or

(c) that the entertainment is intended only for the amusement of children, and that the charge is not more than one penny for each person.

(6) For the purpose of the provisions of this Act relating to Entertainments Duty—

The expression "entertainment" includes any exhibition, performance, amusement, game or sport to which persons are admitted for payment; and the expression "admission to an entertainment" includes admission to any place in which the entertainment is held;

The expression "admission" means admission as a spectator or one of an audience, and the expression "payment on admission" includes any payment made by a person who, having been admitted to one part of a place of entertainment, is subsequently admitted to another part thereof for admission to which a payment involving duty or more duty is required;

The expression "proprietor" in relation to any entertainment includes any person responsible for the management thereof.

I beg to move, in Sub-Ssection (1), after the word "payment" ["where the payment"], to insert the words "excluding the amount of the duty."

I think it will expedite discussion if the Chancellor of the Exchequer will explain in a sentence or two what is the meaning of this new Amendment?

I think the meaning is quite clear. It is that the price of the ticket shall appear as the net price, not including the duty, so that the taxpayer may know what his ticket has cost him.

That is quite clear, but there is an objection to that course which I might put to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It ought to be quite clear that there is a duty to be paid. If all the entertainments in the country advertise their net price, when people go to the pay-box and are asked for a tax in addition, that will be inconvenient. I do not know how the right hon. Gentleman proposes to meet that point?

Question put, and agreed to.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "payment" ["where the payment does not exceed twopence"], to insert the words "exceeds one penny and."

I may perhaps be allowed to say that on the Second Reading of the Bill I gave notice of this Amendment. It was on the Paper during the Committee stage. Unfortunately it had not a chance of coming before the Committee, because my hon. and learned Friend opposite (Mr. J. O'Connor) had an Amendment on the Paper to omit certain of these lines, and that Amendment had precedence of mine. I appealed to the Chairman of the Committee, and also to my hon. and learned Friend, so that my Amendment might have a, chance, but neither were able to help me. The Amendment of my hon. and learned Friend to leave out the lines was negatived, the result being that my Amendment, with others, lost their chance of coming on. I feel it desirable to mention this in order to show to the House that those who were interested in this Amendment took all possible steps to bring it on in the Committee stage. Having been thwarted in that there was no alternative but to bring it up on Report. The object of the Amendment is to frank from this duty all penny tickets. It has been put forward for two reasons. The first, and least important, reason is that a halfpenny is an extremely heavy charge on a penny ticket. On a penny ticket it is 50 per cent., and on a twopenny ticket it is 25 per cent.; and 50 per cent. is a very high proportionate charge. The main reason, however, is this, that, speaking generally, these penny tickets are really the half of the twopenny ticket, and are the charge made for the admission of children to a twopenny place. These twopenny places are for practical purposes the lowest priced places at these entertainments. It seems a great pity to stand in the way of these half-priced tickets.

My right hon. Friend will, I know, refer to the concession he has made in the way of franking penny tickets for children's matinees. I would again express how much those who are acting with me in this matter, and I myself, appreciate that concession, but children's matinees are not all. You have also the case of parents going to these entertainments, and taking their children with them, and it is really very desirable that children should have facilities for going with their parents. The children's matinee is a very good thing, but it is wrong to segregate children, and prevent them going with their fathers and mothers. If the ordinary poor family go to one of these cheap entertainments it its best, in my opinion, that the children should, too, have the opportunity to go at half price. There is a good deal to be said for that. I know that the point may be raised that these performances are generally in the evening, and that children ought not to be out at night. May I be allowed to anticipate that objection in two ways. The first is that in most of these places there are two houses per night, and in practice the children, with their parents, would go to the earlier house. Secondly, it may be said that the children ought to be in bed. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I agree that it would be much better if that could be so; if these children could have nurseries and other suitable accommodation like the children in wealthier homes, and that they could be put to bed at an earlier hour. But you have to consider the conditions under which a great many of these children live. I maintain that generally speaking these children would be quite as well with their parents at one of these entertainments as under the conditions that would otherwise prevail. I simply mention that in view of points that may be taken. I suggest, in addition to the concession for the children's matinées, the grant of this concession, which is practically the concession of half-price children's tickets. Those who make a suggestion like this are under the disadvantage of not possessing the technical expert knowledge of those who have gone into the finance of the matter. We are not in the position to say definitely how much the concession may cost. Nevertheless, I gave notice of this Amendment, and I put the case before the right hon. Gentleman, whom I hope will see his way to grant this concession, which I sincerely think is a concession worthy of consideration.

I beg to second the Amendment, and I do so gladly. I may briefly remind the House that this Amendment has not been submitted to the House so far, owing, shall I say, to the "obstinacy" of my hon. and learned Friend opposite? An Amendment that he has down on the Paper, and which was not withdrawn, shut out our Amendment. Therefore the House has not yet had this Amendment put before it upon its merits. I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will accept it, because, as my hon. Friend has said, the tax is a very heavy tax, and one upon the poorest people who use these picture palaces. A ½d. tax upon 1d. is 50 per cent., and I submit that it is unjust to tax the very poor people to this extent.

4.0 P.M.

I rise, first of all, to apologise to my hon. Friend opposite for my obstinacy the other day. My procedure is very fairly characterised by the word "obstinacy." I apologise to those who are interested in this Amendment, because I feel as strongly as they do as to the justice of this claim. In explanation of my conduct on the last occasion I beg to assure them that it is without doubt the fact that if I had not assumed the attitude of obstinacy that I did assume my conduct would have been very much misunderstood by those on whose behalf I proposed my own Amendment. I beg them to accept these remarks as fully explaining my conduct on that occasion. However, I am sincerely a supporter of my hon. Friend in this matter, and if he should go to a Division I will not only support him in the Lobby, but I will tell with him if necessary.

I would like, on behalf of the children, to protest against the arguments that have been used. There is nothing more destructive of children's eyesight and nothing that does more harm than attending these entertainments at night. Over and over again complaints have been made of the harm done to children through constant attendance at these shows, and this additional tax will do what nothing else will do to retard attendance, and I hope no concession will be made.

I wish strongly to support the Amendment. I think that a tax of a halfpenny on a penny ticket is very excessive, and surely the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Solicitor-General will hardly be able to support that now. In my Constituency hundreds of thousands of people attend these entertainments every year, and if my hon. Friends go to a Division, as I hope they will, I for one will support them in the Division Lobby.

I have no sympathy whatever with the cinema entertainments, but what I want to point out is this: This is in the nature of an Income Tax where there may be, in fact, no income, and this is the first time that this House has provided for collecting money which has not been earned or may not have been earned. The fair thing surely is to ascertain the profits of the cinema shows and upon their profits assess a given amount. But it may be that these places will not be making a profit, because there may be such a huge amount of capital and such a series of losses; yet with regard to these establishments—because it is the same whether we call it a cinema show, racecourse, or theatre—the State is inflicting upon the subject a tax upon profits where perhaps there are no profits at all. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."]

That question does not at all arise. This is a detailed Amendment as to the scale of the tax. The hon. and learned Gentleman has lost his opportunity; he should have moved to leave out the Clause.

Might I submit that on an Amendment to alleviate a grievance one is entitled to discuss the grievance as a whole?

I hope the Solicitor-General, who, I believe, is in charge of the Report stage of this Bill, will agree to this Amendment, and I hope, if the right hon. and learned Gentleman does not agree to it, the House will vote on it, because of the inequality of the amount of this tax. I never heard before that because the price was low you ought to make it more difficult for people to expend that money. We have had in recent years a very wide extension of cheap literature by which the classics have been brought within the reach of the masses in those cheap, popular, and well-printed editions selling at 6d. and 7d., and I do not know that anybody would defend a tax that would make it more difficult for people to enjoy access to literature printed in that cheap form. Now, what is a cinema entertainment? It is made up of certain component parts. There is a considerable amount of amusement in it, and there is also a considerable amount of education in it. As hon. Members know, some of the very best natural history lessons are conveyed to children by means of the cinema, so much, indeed, that there have been proposals before now to introduce a cinema into our schools in order that children at school might have the advantage of the cinema. If you tax the 1d. ticket at a ½d., which, is, as has been pointed out, 50 per cent. of the admission money, it is perfectly obvious that you are going to deprive a large number of children of a perfectly legitimate entertainment. It is quite true that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has exempted what are called children's matinées, but it is also true that no parents can be admitted to those matinées, otherwise the tax would go on to the prices of admission. But one of the things surely which the Government wish to cultivate is the home-life of the people of this country, and among those things it is probable that parents will want to take their children to those entertainments in their own company rather than send them alone. What will happen in that case? Many of the parents will go to the 2d. seats, but they will be unable to get the 1d. seats for the children without the tax. I think, at any rate, the Government might give way to the extent of admitting the child in company with its parents to the 2d. seats at a 1d. without the tax. That is a very small thing to ask.

Finally, I would like to emphasise this point again. A great deal is made, and has been made, about the ability of these people to afford the money. I ask hon. Members who are taking part in this Debate why people go to the 1d. and 2d. seats? They are the most uncomfortable seats in the whole entertainment; they are nearest to the screen, and therefore more detrimental, if there is anything detrimental in it, than the seats behind. No one would go to a 1d. or a 2d. seat if he could go to a 3d., 4d., or 6d. seat. I am perfectly certain the Solicitor-General would not go to any of those cheaper seats at a cinema; he would prefer a very much more comfortable seat. Why? Because he can afford to enjoy his entertainment in a comfortable way and in comfortable surroundings, but these people cannot afford it, and that is why they are driven to the cheaper seats. There would be no catering among entertainers for the cheaper seats unless there were a public for the seats, and if you are going to drive that public away you are not only not going to get the tax, but you are going to decrease the profits of those who own those entertainments, and therefore you are going to decrease the amount they themselves pay in Income Tax to the State, so that you lose at both ends of the scale. I do, therefore, urge the Solicitor-General, if he cannot give way on the whole of this point, at any rate to give way to the extent of extending to the children throughout the nights of the week the same privilege he has already given to the children's matinées.

I regret very much that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary to the Treasury have both been called away on very important public duties, and I hope the House will allow me to deal with the Amendment. I have had an opportunity of consulting with them. I quite remember the circumstances under which the matter was not raised before, and I was anxious to hear all that could be said in favour of the Amendment before attempting to deal with the points. The main point which has been urged is that in favour of children. May I say, first, with regard to my hon. Friend who has just spoken, I do not think he quite appreciates the effect of the Amendment already made which is reflected in the Bill as it now stands. The effect of that Amendment is to exempt children's entertainments—that is, entertainments intended for children, and at which the charge for anybody who goes there is not more than a 1d. The effect of the Bill, I think, is that if it is an entertainment bonâfide intended for children, there is nothing to prevent a person in charge of a child going there for the purpose of taking charge of the child, and that meets, I think, the point my hon. Friend specially made. As regards admitting children to other entertainments—to cinemas, as we have been forced to call them, or to other shows in the evening, while I am not quite sure whether hon. Members desire that to be encouraged or not, certainly it is a very doubtful point as to whether we ought, by a reduction of the tax for the benefit of children, to put before parents an encouragement to take their children with them to those evening shows. I am not at all satisfied that that is a good reason why the tax should be reduced upon the lower charges.

Then it is said, "Oh, but you are putting a tax upon small tickets at entertainments to which the poorer people can go!" The object is that everyone who goes to the entertainment, and who is able to afford that, shall pay this tax, and it is not desirable that this tax should be placed upon certain classes only, but that everyone, and not the less those very large numbers who pay for these very cheap tickets, should be asked at this particular time of war to pay a moderate tax. We have had it represented to us, and I can quite understand it, that if you exempt the cheaper tickets, and levy your tax only on the higher-priced tickets, you give a preference to the larger halls. The people owning the smaller halls say they are bound to charge 2d. or more for admission, but that the people who have the larger halls, and accommodate a large number, can afford to charge a 1d., and so would escape the tax. It is a very good point, fairly made by those who know about the matter, in favour of keeping the tax on all tickets. This Amendment would mean a very large loss of duty, and, after all, that is a matter of moment. These 1d. tickets are very numerous, but, apart from that, if you adopt this Amendment you run a great risk of losing other duties. I will tell the House why. It is represented to us, and I can quite believe it, that if you exempt the 1d. ticket you will have, not a 2d. or a 3d. entertainment, but a series of 1d. entertainments, shorter perhaps, following one another. In each case the customer would be asked to pay his 1d. and would see a certain slice of the entertainment, and, in order to see the next portion, be would have to pay another 1d., and so on. In that way you open a door to evasion of the tax which, I am sure, the House would not desire. On the whole, the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not see his way to accept the Amendment, and I hope, after what I have said, it will not be pressed.

Question, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill," put, and negatived.

Amendment made: In Sub-section (2), paragraph (b), after the word "which," insert the words "or by means, of a mechanical contrivance which."—[ Sir G. Cave. ]

I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), paragraph (b), to leave out the words "passing through the barrier," and to insert instead thereof the word "admitted."

I called attention on the Committee stage to the difficulty of collecting the duty in many shows and various entertainments, and I particularly emphasised that in many cases they have to pass through a barrier and not a turnstile. I had a question down in reference to this point, and I wish to state that I was very much within the mark when I placed the average cost of a turnstile at £15, for I have since learned that in many cases they cost as much as £30, and this would have been a very serious matter for many of these small shows. I am told that in many of these places in the country turnstiles are not in existence in any considerable number, and consequently to tell them that they would have to put up a turnstile was asking them to do something which was almost impossible. Another difficulty in regard to turnstiles is that local authorities raise objection on account of +he possible obstruction of free egress and ingress to the people attending the show. The local authorities are very particular about any obstruction to egress in case of a fire, and they allow nothing to be put up in any of the entrances or exits which would take away even an inch of the space available for this purpose. For these reasons I am glad that the Government have met us in this way.

I desire to confirm what the hon. Member opposite has said on this point, particularly in regard to the protection which it will afford to these people. I am glad the Chancellor of the Exchequer has found other ways of automatically registering the numbers of those who attend these places of entertainment.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in Subsection (2), paragraph ( b ), after the word last inserted to add the words,

I warmly welcome this Amendment because unless some such words had been inserted it would have been absolutely impossible for many of the different entertainment palaces at our seaside resorts to have collected the tax at all. It would have been physically impossible, and I am glad to see that the representations made on behalf of those entertainments have been so sympathetically received by the Treasury. With reference to the words "and has given security up to an amount" contained in the Amendment, I would like to know exactly what is meant by them. Will the amount be in proportion to the capital involved or the site value of the place of entertainment? I think that is an important point. I want to know what sort of security would be required from those entertainment companies, and I should not like to allow it to pass leaving the matter entirely in the hands of the Commissioners, because they are often very difficult people to deal with.

My point of view is that there is no one to represent to the Treasury the case of these small people, while those who have invested capital in these big concerns are able to bring pressure upon the Government in a matter of this kind. If this Amendment is to be any good it ought to deal with the question of profit, because in the case of these large establishments it is not the individual who goes through the gate who pays. I maintain that there should be provision in this Amendment to ascertain what the profit is in each case.

There is one point which I hope the Solicitor-General will clear up. The Government refused an Amendment during the Committee stage providing for a 10 per cent. charge on all receipts of places of entertainment, and the reason they opposed that was that they wished to insist that each person entering a place of entertainment should pay the tax.

If you will allow this Amendment to stand there is nothing to prevent the proprietors of large and wealthy houses paying the tax themselves out of their receipts without any charge to the people who come into their theatres. It has already been pointed out that the bulk of these entertainment places are small houses. We are so accustomed to see the bigger houses in the main streets that we are apt to forget that the bulk of the entertainments of the masses is conducted in small houses, by small men, distributed throughout our towns and villages over the whole of the country. They cannot afford to pay the tax out of their receipts. In the case I placed before the Committee on the basis of £1,000 takings the tax amounted to £325, and the proprietors of these small establishments cannot afford to pay a sum like that out of their receipts, while the proprietors of the large palaces can afford to pay, and by attracting larger audiences they can squeeze the smaller houses out altogether. That is what will happen if you allow the proprietors of the larger establish- ments to work on the system suggested in this Amendment. I hope the Solicitor-General will remember that the bulk of the entertainments in this country take place in small houses, and I hope the Government will not press this proposal. If the intention is to distribute this tax amongst all people who attend these entertainments, clearly all the people ought to pay the tax every time they go in, and then they know the amount that they are actually contributing.

In reply to the hon. Member for Blackpool (Mr. Ashley), I may point out that it is proposed to take as security the estimated amount of the duty. In the case of houses where a series of entertainments follow one another no doubt they will be allowed to give security extending over certain reasonable periods. I am quite sure that in no case will an unreasonable amount be exacted. With regard to what has been said by the hon. Member for North-East Cork (Mr. T. M. Healy), his objection seems to me to be not so much to this Amendment, but to the whole principle. The hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) seems to think that the passing of an Amendment of this kind may lead to a system under which the proprietors of the larger houses would pay the duty themselves, charging the same amount as before for the ticket, and bearing the charge of the duty themselves. I may say that we have thought of that point and provided against it. If the hon. Member will look at the Amendment Paper he will see that the Government are proposing an Amendment that in every case where one charge is made for the ticket and the duty the duty shall be separately stated.

But does that meet the case? It seems to me that it does not matter whether you state separate the amount of admission and the duty if the proprietor is going to pay it out of his profit.

The Amendment I have referred to is being inserted at the instance of both large and small proprietors of theatres, and they are all satisfied that it will give them the protection which they desire to have.

Question, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill," put, and agreed to.

I beg to move, in Subsection (2), paragraph (b), after the word "penalty" ["penalty of fifty pounds"], to insert the words "in the case of the person admitted five pounds, and in the case of the proprietor."

This Amendment deals with the penalty which in the Bill is fixed at £50. It was thought during the Committee stage that that was rather a heavy penalty to inflict upon a person who might have gone into one of these shows quite innocently without paying the tax, and in that case we suggest that the penalty should be £5.

Surely it is not proposed to inflict a penalty of £5 in a case of this kind. The person admitted may be perfectly innocent, and how is he to make sure that he has paid the tax. I think if you make the proprietor who admits these people responsible for the penalty, surely that ought to be quite sufficient.

I cordially endorse what has just been said. This is the most weird proposal that has ever emanated from the Government. It is absolutely weird. Here you are in a town in which perhaps you have never been before and you go up to the door and pay your shilling or sixpence for your ticket for the entertainment, or it may be a racecourse, and because you have not acquainted yourself with the by laws or with the fact whether the proprietor has or has not satisfied the Commissioners that he is carrying on his business in a proper way, you, a humble and innocent citizen, by passing through that barrier find yourself liable to a penalty of £5. Was there ever anything like it in the region of legal comedy? This is proposed as a verbal Amendment in the absence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is not on the Paper, and the House has had no opportunity of considering it.

I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that he was proposing a written Amendment. It may be that I am mistaken, but in my opinion it does not make it any more meritorious. Little children and women as well as men who are absolutely innocent, except that there is an attractive programme on the playbill, come and pay the money that is demanded of them and suddenly they find themselves turned into convicts, and when they become seventy years of age they may lose their old age pensions. The right hon. Gentleman is pursuing this to a length which is absolutely absurd.

It was intended, as the Clause was originally drafted, that each individual person should pay the duty, but now, according to the Amendment which has been carried, the proprietor can furnish returns to the Commissioners, and the probability is that no tax may be charged on the individual paying for admission. The owner may be wealthy enough to pay the tax himself. Under those circumstances, how is it possible for the individual paying for admission to know whether the tax has been paid or not? The Amendment now proposed to exact this penalty from the individual who is admitted on payment is rather inconsistent with the former Amendment.

It is well known that the audiences of a large number of entertainments consist largely of "paper." Orders are given out or are distributed for the purposes of advertisement amongst a variety of people, and for the first or second performance, or possibly for some little time, people get complimentary tickets to go to theatres and other places. Is it intended that each one of these persons shall separately pay the tax, or have the Government abandoned the idea, which is clearly embodied in the Bill, of insisting upon each member of the audience paying the tax himself? Looking at the Bill, we all gathered that the intention was to make it clear that every individual going to any entertainment should personally, in addition to paying for admission, pay the tax, and should know that so much of the money was for the tax. Are we to gather, as indicated by the last speaker, that is being abandoned and that it would be competent for the proprietor of the theatre to charge, say, 1s. per head, and call the actual admission 10d. or 11d. and the tax 1d. or 2d.? Are we to understand that a sort of wholesale evasion of the principle that each person should pay this tax is going to be permitted? I did not understand that from the Solicitor-General when he explained the Amendment.

That question clearly does not arise here. If the hon. Member will look at the Bill and the Amendment, he will see that the present Amendment is a modification of the penalty as it stands in the Bill. It reduces it in the case of persons admitted from a maximum of £50 to a maximum of £5.

I gathered that, but if now an individual has not got to see that he pays his own tax how can he become responsible for the penalty? If the whole of that idea has been abandoned, of course the penalty itself would be obviously absurd.

I am not a lawyer and therefore not skilled in drafting, but could not the right hon. Gentleman, after the words "fifty pounds," insert some such words as these: "If the same is done knowingly in the case of the person admitted." I quite understand that the proprietor must obviously be held responsible if he lets anybody in without paying the tax, but a good deal can be said for my hon. Friend's objection. It is rather a strong order to make the person who is admitted and who may not be asked to pay the tax liable to a penalty of £5.

The only purpose of my Amendment is to reduce the penalty on the person admitted. As the Bill stands, it is a maximum penalty of £50 for everyone, both the person admitted and the proprietor of the entertainment. Nobody objected to that.

The right hon. Gentleman is mistaken. I was perfectly well aware that the purpose of his Amendment was to reduce the penalty, but we did protest and object in the strongest possible manner to any penalty on the man admitted, and my objection now is that when he was altering the penalty he did not omit it altogether.

If my Amendment is not accepted, the penalty remains as it is. I gather that hon. Gentlemen now contend that there should be no penalty on the person admitted. It is rather late to make that Amendment, because we have passed the words which inflict some penalty on him. Apart from that, it is plain to all of us that if you put in a maximum penalty of £5 it means that unless a man wilfully goes in without paying this duty no magistrate would think of convicting him. That is how these Statutes are construed. No magistrate would think of convicting an innocent person who by some mistake had gone in not knowing that his ticket was not stamped and that the duty was not paid. The penalty would only apply to the case of persons wilfully going in and evading the duty—the case, possibly, of a crowd breaking through the barrier and going in without paying the duty at all. We ought in those cases to have some hold on persons who wilfully evade the payment of the duty, and it is only for that purpose that the maximum penalty of £5 is proposed. Even if magistrates would impose the penalty upon innocent persons, the Commissioners would not dream of asking it.

Question, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In Subsection (3), after the word "toy" ["in the case of admission by ticket"], insert the word "stamped."

Leave out the words "by barrier" ["in the case of admission by barrier, shall be calculated and paid"], and insert instead thereof the words "otherwise than by stamped ticket."

Leave out the words "through the barrier."

Leave out the words "by barrier" ["Entertainments Duty, in the case of admission by barrier"], and insert instead thereof the words "otherwise than by stamped ticket."—[ Sir G. Cave. ]

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (3), to insert the following new Sub-section:

"Where the amount of payment for admission to any entertainment is shown on any ticket or on any notice or advertisement, and the amount so shown includes the amount of the duty, the amount of the duty shall be stated separately on the ticket, notice, or advertisement.

If this provision is not complied with in the case of any entertainment, the proprietor of the entertainment shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding ten pounds."

The object of the Amendment is to secure that the person attending the entertainment shall know how much of the amount he pays is duty. It prevents that competition which might otherwise arise between a small and a large house. The large house might be able to afford to pay the duty and not charge it at all. In every case where there is a charge stated and it includes the duty, and the duty must be specified on the ticket or notice. That is the effect of the Amendment, and it satisfies a large body of proprietors of entertainments of all kinds, who desire that it should be done.

I ventured to oppose the Amendment in its original form, and I must say that the form in which it is now presented does not entirely do away with my objection to it. The Government were good enought to accept an Amendment which I suggested on the Committee stage, namely, that the scales of payment for admission should be exclusive of duty, and that therefore if there was a shilling ticket and the duty on it was 3d., 1s. 3d. would have to be paid. As the Bill was originally drawn that would not have been shown, for if the ticket price had been made 1s. 3d. the duty would have been payable on the scale of 1s. 3d. instead of Is. This Amendment, I venture to submit, is quite unnecessary and distinctly dangerous. As it now stands, a person in charge of an entertainment may charge 1s. for the whole ticket and 3d. in addition for the tax, and he must put the charge in that form on the ticket. There is nothing as it is to prevent the proprietor of a theatre or entertainment putting that information on the ticket, but to make it an offence, punishable with a, penalty, not to put all these details upon the notice or advertisement of the entertainment at any particular place is quite unnecessary. For instance, take the case of a football match. It is usual to put up the price of admission outside the barrier. According to this Section it will be obligatory to put up a notice of whatever the amount may be that is charged for admission and to add the moment that is payable as duty. I venture to suggest that that is absolutely unnecessary, and it is all the more objectionable because the information has to be published not only on the ticket but on the notice or advertisement. There is this further objection: Take, for instance, the case of a pier where an entertainment is provided. It will be necessary, under this Section, to put up a notice to the effect that the admission is 2d., of which ½d. represents the duty. All this will involve painting, printing, and so forth to an extent which is quite unnecessary. If managers choose to put it up there is nothing to prevent them doing it, but I do suggest that this provision will act very hardly on people in compelling them to put up these notices outside all places of entertainment.

Am I to understand that this tax is to fall only upon people who pay to go into entertainments? My right hon. Friend will know that theatrical audiences, especially on first nights, contain a large number of people belonging to my profession who are called "dead-heads." I have been a dead-head myself for forty-five years. I do not mind the dead-head being charged the tax, but I think it would operate rather unfairly in the case of those who have to attend theatrical performances professionally, and who are supplied with free tickets for that purpose.

I hope the Solicitor-General will not resist this appeal. He has suggested that it meets my objection with regard to large and small houses. I am convinced it does not. There is nothing to prevent the larger houses where they have a big range of prices including the tax in a round amount. When a ticket exceeds 2d. and does not exceed 6d. the tax will be 1d. The larger house will be able to advertise that the tax is 1d., but may issue its ticket for an inclusive sum of 6d. The smaller houses cannot afford to do that, and they will have to advertise the admission at 6d., plus 1d. for the tax. The larger houses have a very much larger revenue and can easily meet the difference between the 5d. and the 6d. charged by the smaller houses out of the accumulation of profits, and I fear that this will have the inevitable effect of driving a great number of the smaller houses to the wall. I should like the Solicitor-General to tell us who representing the trade expressed a desire for this provision. As far as I have been able to ascertain from the newspapers, some theatrical managers in London have approached the right hon. Gentleman, but I have seen no indication anywhere of representations having been received from the provincial musical hall and cinema managers. From my knowledge of the trade, and of the smaller people in it, I cannot think that this proposal is really desired by them.

I should like to put one question to the right hon. Gentleman. Suppose a person receives a complimentary ticket for a half-guinea seat, I want to ask the Solicitor-General if a tax is to be collected on the half-guinea—the nominal price of the seat—or on the profit? If the latter, then, of course, there would be no tax chargeable at all in the case of the complimentary ticket. But if the duty is to be payable on the nominal value of the seat, then I think that ought to be made quite clear, because it raises a very serious question regarding the issue of complimentary tickets for all kinds of entertainments.

If my hon. Friends will look at the Bill they will find that the tax is leviable upon all payments for admission, and therefore the visitor who is styled in somewhat uncomplimentary terms "deadhead," and who does not pay anything for admission, will not be hit by the tax, nor will the proprietor. I may inform the hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool (Mr. T. P. O'Connor) that he need have no fear of a tax falling upon any member of his profession on the particular occasions to which he has referred. With regard to the general question, I must say the proposal is very simple. It comes to this, that where you put on the ticket "admission 6d.," and you are not going to call upon the person attending the entertainment to pay the tax in addition, but arrange the payment of it for him, then you must put on the ticket "admission 6d., including duty, 1d." You must show on the face of the ticket, or at the gates, when no tickets are used, that the price of admission includes duty, and what the amount of the duty is. I do not see any great hardship in imposing such an obligation. The deputation which waited on the Chancellor of the Exchequer—not on myself—consisted of theatre proprietors, and it is wholly by their wish that this Amendment is proposed to be put in. We are told that the big proprietors will pay the duty themselves, but that the small proprietor cannot do it. But the desire is that both shall pass it on to the customer, and if it is not passed on then it must be shown on the ticket or notice how much of the price charged is payable as tax, so that the customer may know how much he is actually paying for the entertainment itself. It is a small matter, and I hope the House will agree to it.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman has not dealt with my point, which is that it is being made a penal offence if this information is not set out on the notice of advertisement as well as on the ticket. I suggest that in connection with football matches, as well as in connection with theatres, it will be necessary to put up these notices outside, and it is extraordinary it should be made an offence if, when a person puts up the price of admission, he does not also add the amount of the duty. I hope the Government will see this difficulty and withdraw this proposal, because it would really work a great injustice on proprietors of football grounds, piers, and so on.

As I understand the Amendment, my hon. Friend's objection does not arise. It would have arisen, perhaps, had the Amendment been moved in the form in which it appears on the Paper. But as I understand it now there is no obligation to state the amount of the duty on the notice or advertisement; the obligation to do so applies only to the ticket, and where no tickets are issued, and where, for instance, the people simply pass a barrier, there will not be any obligation to state the amount of the duty.

Then, I think, there is really serious objection to be taken to the proposal, and I hope my hon. Friend's objection will be effective.

The point is, I admit, an important one. We propose this Amendment really at the desire of theatre managers. I do not like to drop it without having an opportunity of consulting them, but I quite see the force of the remarks of my hon. Friends, and, under the circumstances, I will not ask the House to pass the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in Subsection (5), to leave out paragraph ( a ).

5.0 P.M.

When we were in Committee on this Clause we had a discussion upon this paragraph. The object of the paragraph is to obviate the payment of the tax upon admission to any entertainment where the Commissioners are satisfied that the whole of the takings therefrom are devoted to charitable and philanthropic purposes without any charge on the takings for any expenses of the entertainment. When the matter was under discussion I urged that there should be no charge on the takings for any of these expenses. I pointed out that the Clause as it stood would be a serious bar against many entertainments, such as concerts and other things arranged for the purpose of raising money for the War, and for charitable and philanthropic purposes. Several hon. Members supported the suggestion I then made that the provision for there being no charge on the takings for any expenses should be withdrawn. We had a definite promise from the Chancellor of the Duchy, who was in charge of the Bill and who made these observations:

I hope that the Government will yet see their way to obviate this, because it will cause a great deal of unpopularity in the different localities. If you have a concert for the purpose of raising money to provide comforts for the troops—a large number of them are going on up and down the country—it is very hard, when men are selling tickets, that they should have to say to a person who is paying 5s., "You will have to pay 6d. in addition," and to a person paying 7s. 6d.—many of these tickets go up to 10s.—"You will have to pay 1s. extra to the Government as tax," when the object is not for private profit, but entirely to assist some charitable or philanthropic society or to provide comforts for the troops. I stated the fact the other day that some three weeks ago in my own town we raised over £300 towards providing comforts for the Irish regiments. That was raised entirely by working men, who had a "Flag Day," and a concert the following night. These men will certainly be deterred from holding concerts of this nature if they are held responsible for the payment of the expenses. I am certain that the public would strongly object to paying a tax in regard to such entertainments in addition to paying the actual fee of admission. I should like to know from the Solicitor-General what has transpired since last Wednesday night that has prevented the Government from dealing with this matter? I understand there has been a deputation from those who make a profit out of these entertainments. Do I understand that they have come to some understanding with the Government and that the Government have undertaken not to allow these concerts to be held in competition with them? I can assure the Solicitor-General that these concerts have not been arranged in competition with these other entertainments. Many of these concerts are held on a Sunday night and are quite apart with any competition with people who desire to go to theatres, cinemas, or music halls.

I beg to second the Amendment. I do so because I entirely concur in the remarks of the hon. Member. When the matter was considered in Committee I had an Amendment which I withdrew, not because the Chancellor of the Duchy promised to bring up any definite Amendment—it is only fair to him to say that—but because we would give consideration to the matter in the meantime. What we want is that these objects shall receive the whole of the takings after deducting a sum which, in the opinion of the Commissioners, is sufficient for a charge for expenses. I know the difficulty with which the Government have to deal in regard to any such Amendment. It is that all kinds of sums may be charged for expenses. I should like to make it clear that so far as I am concerned I do not propose to allow the promoters of any entertainment to charge any sum they like for expenses, but if they are reasonable and if, in the opinion of the Commissioners, the sum for expenses is not excessive, where the whole of the profits are to be devoted to charitable or philanthropic purposes, they should be allowed.

I think I am in a position to meet the arguments of my hon. Friend (Mr. J. Samuel) with regard to this Amendment. I am quite aware that he does not mean that the whole paragraph should be taken out, but desires to confine it to seeing what can be done to meet the point that has been raised. The House knows that the whole object of putting in these words with regard to the expenses was to ensure that the tax should be paid in these cases—I do not know whether they are numerous or not, but I am sure they exist—where an entertainment is got up, not for the sake of a charity, but for the benefit of those who own the building where it is held, and where the expenses form a very large portion of the takings of the entertainment. We do not desire to insert any words which would exempt entertainments of that kind. At the same time, my right hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury did say—I was present at the time when the point was raised—that he would think it over and consider whether something could be done on Report. Although he made no promise at all, he was certainly willing to think it over and see what could be done. I have had an opportunity of discussing the matter with him and the Chancellor of the Exchequer this morning, and it does appear to us that it is a little hard, where the entertainment is got up for charity—perhaps for the benefit of the Red Cross Society, or something of that kind—that we should not allow any part of the expenses, however moderate, to be paid out of the takings, while in other cases you might find people who would pay the whole of the expenses.

We desire to meet that state of things, if we can. It is not very easy to do it, because we cannot tell beforehand what relation, the takings will bear to the expenses. You do not know what your takings are going to be, therefore you cannot state beforehand, if you fix it merely by proportion of the expenses, whether you will be liable to duty or not. It is only at the moment when the takings are all received, and you count up your money, that you know whether or not you ought to have provided in the price of the tickets for the duty, and whether you ought to have asked those coming in to pay their stamps or not. The matter requires to be dealt with very carefully. We think it may be met in this way: Let the duty be paid on the admission in all these cases, so that you will know that you must provide for the duty, but if at the end it appears that the expenses bear a very moderate relation to the takings then application may be made to the Commissioners, and the Commissioners may return the duty to the charity. The effect will be this: People will be told, "Take as many tickets as you can for this excellent object, for the more tickets we sell the greater chance we have of our takings greatly exceeding our expenses, and if we can get to a certain point we shall not only get your money but shall also get the duty back, too." That, of course, will be an assistance to the charity and not a hindrance. What I intend to suggest is that a maximum of 20 per cent. for expenses would not be unfair. There will, we hope, be very many cases where expenses will be less. If you fix it at 20 per cent. you will not have cases of entertainments got up for the sake of the entertainer. The proportion is small enough to make sure that no one on that basis would get up an entertainment for the sake of charity and escape duty. If the Amendment is withdrawn we should move, at the end of paragraph ( c ), to add this further paragraph:

Where the Commissioners are satisfied that the whole net proceeds of the entertainment are devoted to philanthropic or charitable purposes and that the whole expenses of the entertainment will not exceed 20 per cent. of the takings, they shall repay the proprietor the amount of the Entertainment Duty paid in respect of his entertainment.

This proposal will ensure that where the expenses are reasonable the duty shall not in the end fall upon the charity. If this is not done I quite see that the whole Clause might hamper the charities. That is the last thing we desire. I hope with that explanation the Amendment will not be pressed.

I am rather sorry the Government have met the matter in this way. I am not quite sure, from the words the Solicitor-General has read, whether the organisers of the entertainment can, as of right, claim up to 20 per cent. of the expenses. If that is so, my objection is still stronger to what the Government propose doing. There are people who really make a business of getting up charitable entertainments and things of that sort. I think we have all had experience of them. An entertainment is organised by the artists; it is the means of the artists getting pay for the evening's entertainment, or sometimes it is the owner of the hall who organises it, and I am quite sure if the Government are, as of right, going to hand over 20 per cent. of the gross takings, it will really be quite a profitable thing for people to run these entertainments. Twenty per cent. in the case of a big hall would be a very considerable amount of money indeed, and I think there is considerable danger in the proposal if it is as I understand. I should not object to the Commissioners having the power under certain circumstances to do this, but there really is not so much in the case which is made against the Bill as it stands. Surely, if there is a desire to help some charity, a way could be found whereby those interested in the charity or entertainment would provide the expenses between them and let the rest of the money go? You are going to give an entertainment. You appeal to certain charitable people and say, "We cannot have this entertainment unless the expenses of it are met," and the expenses would be met. Then the rest of it would be perfectly clear sailing. I know a part of London where the kind of thing I am now indicating is in vogue more than in other parts of the country, and it is a matter of daily experience there. People run these friendly leads and all sorts of things in the name of charity, and really do very well out of it. The artist gets his evening's fee, which he would never get otherwise, or the hall-keeper lets his hall. It would be a useful thing if there were some check upon these entertainments, and I am not at all sure the provisions in the Bill as it stands would not have provided that check.

I have given notice of an Amendment to insert the words "greater than twenty per cent. of the gross receipt."

It was given to the Chancellor of the Exchequer as far back as Saturday. That is practically the proposal the Government are making except that I do not quite like the idea that you have to make this application, after you have made the money, to have the money back. I am afraid we are forgetting, in thinking of these entertainments, the very large number of charitable sports which already exist throughout the length and breadth of the country. The hon. Member for Kildare the other day referred to some in Ireland, and there are a great number in this country. For instance, in Edinburgh there is a competition which is held every year known as the Rosebery Cup. A Cup was presented by Lord Rosebery some twenty or twenty-five years ago, and the football teams in the League in Scotland competed for it after the League season was over, and the proceeds of those matches went to local charities. A certain amount of expenses were necessary to run a sport of that kind, and a certain amount of advertising was required. It would be very difficult if first of all you have got to run the whole thing and then make application at the end of the time, in view of certain receipts that you may get to know, whether you get this money back or not. I do not know why my right hon. Friend should not at once, if he thinks 20 per cent. is enough to allow for expenses, allow all these things to be held with this proviso, which would be perfectly easy, that they should first of all get the consent of the Commissioners that it was a really charitable entertainment. That would be very much easier than worrying about the money. You put in a proviso elsewhere that the Secretary for Education shall determine when an entertainment is a purely educational entertainment and it is not allowed to be held until the Secretary of State has decided that it is an educational entertainment. If my right hon. Friend said, in the first place, that everybody running an entertainment of that kind for charitable or philanthropic purposes had first of all to get the consent of the responsible official he would at once kill all these numerous entertainments, and he would protect the public from the sale of these tickets and it would be an excellent thing. If the consent were given and the Government agree that 20 per cent. of the gross receipts is the amount for expenses, why not let the whole thing go at that on the consent of either the Commissioner or some other official my right hon. Friend could suggest? I am certain that is an easier way, and it would be a relief to the public and would save the public from being so frequently done, as they are by so many of these entertainments.

I can hardly agree with all that the hon. Member has said. I think the Government would be much safer to stick to the Bill in the form in which it exists now. I do not want to cavil at the words which my right hon. Friend says he is going to move, because it is unfair to cavil at details of that kind, but the 20 per cent. would really act somewhat harshly, because in the case of a football match or a concert in inclement weather the unfortunate person who made the failure would be hit, while a more successful person would come off perfectly well. I want to go rather deeper than that. Take the well-known case of charity cup competitions. If a match is worth seeing, if you really get first-rate teams, do you really mean to tell me that a person would not be perfectly willing to pay 7d. instead of 6d. for his admission to see a really good game being played? Would he really grudge the difference between 6d. and 7d. when there are two good teams, and he has the additional inducement of knowing that it is for the sake of charity? I think that is a perfectly fair example. I have played in charity competitions myself, though I do not know whether I was worth paying money to see, but a Scotsman going to see a match played at Queen's Park, Glasgow, if it is not for a charity he has to pay 7d., and if it is he only pays 6d. Surely that is hardly right. If the same teams play the public would be more willing to pay 7d. if the proceeds were for a charity than if they were not.

I agree that he would probably have to pay 7d., but that being so, could anyone seriously object to a tax of that kind for a charity undertaking? But there is great difficulty about many of these charitable exhibitions. I have had considerable experience of them, and where there is really a genuine desire to run charitable entertainment, and you really think you are getting value for your money, you do not object to paying an extra 1d. above the market price for the ticket when it is a case of a charity where you will more than cover the expenses by private sub- scription. Take charitable entertainments which are got up by amateurs, frequently for the love of the work, where the dresses and other things are expensive. Twenty per cent. is really far too much to pay for the value of the entertainment. When you come to the poorer classes of entertainment, Mr. Someone's benefit is announced, at a club possibly, and admission is charged for a very excellent entertainment. The club takes something for the good of the house possibly. That does not go into expenses. Is 20 per cent. to be allowed for expenses in cases of that kind where the entertainment is run by people coming forward to help and you say perfectly clearly that no expenses should be charged at all, so that the Government tax should be avoided? Surely once that is done people will come forward far more willingly than when the some sort of expenses are going to someone, and even though it only amounts to 20 per cent. of the gross takings, it will be a very large sum indeed. I think we should do better to stick to the Bill as it stands.

There may be a great deal in what the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Rawlinson) has said, but I have in my mind cases with which, I think, people have sympathy, and which are not covered by the kind of thing he has just put before the House. For example, there are in a number of towns entertainments organised for schoolboys and schoolgirls by associations got up in the main by teachers. These organisations run tremendous sports once each year in Manchester, Sheffield, and other towns, and they are great events in the eyes of the children, both in elementary and in secondary schools. Primarily, the object of the teacher is to promote the physical efficiency of the children. Incidentally some amount of money is raised for charitable purposes, and I do submit to the Government that cases of that kind, whether it be sports, or whether it be football or cricket matches, which are run for the same purpose, ought to be exempt entirely. A small amount of expense is certainly taken from the gate, but having regard to the circumstances under which the sports are held, the promoters ought not to be handicapped by the imposition of anything like a tax, which may have, and probably would have, some effect in increasing the difficulties of those who carry on the work from month to month. Somewhat in answer to what the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Rawlinson) said, I appeal to the Government to make some special provision so far as the purposes. I have named are concerned, namely, school sports and school matches, both of cricket and of football. I hope that this will not be overlooked in the reply from the Front Bench.

I hope my hon. Friend (Mr. J. Samuel) who moved this Amendment will withdraw it and accept the Government Amendment when it is put forward at the proper time. I quite understand the objection of the Government to allowing a large amount of expenses to be deducted from the takings. My hon. Friend agrees there. I think there are, undoubtedly, cases where it may be impossible to get up an entertainment of this sort unless some small amount is allowed to be deducted from the takings for expenses. If the Government Amendment is adopted, what I understand will happen is this: The spectators would pay the amount of the ordinary charge, plus the duty, and in that way would please my hon. and learned Friend the Member for the University (Mr. Rawlinson), but if it turned out that the amount of the expenses was small and not more than 20 per cent. of the takings, then the charity would get the duty back from the Government. In other words, they would get a bonus. I think that would be satisfactory to the charity, and would not cause any great loss to the Government. Therefore, if my hon. Friend withdraws his Amendment, I shall support the Government Amendment.

I intend to respond to the appeal of the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Butcher), and also to the appeal of the Solicitor-General, and to withdraw my Amendment. I certainly prefer the Amendment as it stands to the suggestion which was made by my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge)—that is to say, that you should obtain the sanction of the Commissioners before hand. I am quite certain of this—that the Commissioners—

I thought I was entitled to give my reasons. I am going to speak on the Government Amendment. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in paragraph ( a ), to leave out the words "charitable and philanthropic" and to insert instead thereof the words "philanthropic or charitable."

I want to know from the Solicitor-General whether the putting of the word "philanthropic" first will have any effect in narrowing what would otherwise be the effect of the word "charitable"?

I am very glad that the Government have seen their way to make this small Amendment. I think the transformation is a very good thing. The point I raised—and I really feel very strongly upon it, although it appears to be a small matter—is that for the moment most of these entertainments, or a very large proportion of them, are for the Red Cross Society, comforts for soldiers, and so on, and I strongly object to having the word "charitable," from the public point of view, associated with such entertainments. I think it would be offensive to the feelings of the people who get up such entertainments to have them described as charitable. Therefore, I think the change made by the Government is an excellent one.

We desire to meet the point raised by the hon. Member, and that is the object of our Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in paragraph ( a ), after the word "entertainment" ["expenses of the entertainment"], to insert the words "greater than 20 per cent. of the gross receipts."

My points on this Amendment are the points which I have already raised, and which have not been replied to.

I thought I had answered my hon. Friend. I am sorry I did not make myself clear. The difference in the two Amendments is this: If we take his Amendment it would prevent the tax being collected at the source, where the expenses are not more than 20 per cent. of the gross receipts. You cannot tell when you organise an entertainment and sell your tickets what relation your receipts will bear to your expenses; therefore you must, in every case, charge the tax to begin with. We say, levy the tax from the beginning, and at the end, when you make up your accounts, then comes the time for returning the duty if it is found that the expenses are not more than 20 per cent. of the receipts.

I think that is a very cumbersome way of going about the tax.

Amendment negatived.

The next Amendments standing in the name of the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) have been covered.

I beg to move to insert at the end of the Clause, as a new paragraph,

"or ( d ) that the entertainment is provided for partly educational or partly scientific purposes by a society or institution not conducted for profit, or is provided by any such society or institution, which has been founded with the object of reviving national pastimes, in furtherance of that object.

I have been asked to inquire from the right hon. Gentleman whether botanical gardens will come under this Clause or not?

Can the Solicitor-General say whether "educational" as defined in the Bill will meet the case of school sports or of school football associations?

A question which will arise in Wales is the position of the National Eisteddfod and other Eisteddfodau held throughout the Principality. I am afraid that they are not covered by the words of the Bill as it stands. Provided that where the entertainments are wholly of an educational character they are exempt, but, as the House knows, there is in connection with these meetings not merely educational functions—lectures, addresses, and competitions, both musical and literary—but concerts where very eminent artists are engaged. I am afraid, therefore, that these will not come within Clause ( b ), and I am not quite sure whether the new paragraph ( d )in the Amendment now suggested by the Solicitor-General will meet the case. As it stands now it is that the entertainment must be provided "by a society or institution." As a matter of fact, the National Eisteddfod is not provided by a society or institution, and the same remark applies to the local Eisteddfodau. They are provided by a local committee set up for that purpose. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to say that a committee of that kind shall be deemed to be a society or institution within the meaning of this Clause. If not, then I hope I shall be able to induce the right hon. Gentleman and the Government to consider the very peculiar position in Wales, and the very heavy tax that will be imposed in connection with an institution which, of course, is intended, and always has been intended, to be of a national character.

This new paragraph provides that the entertainment is for partly educational or partly scientific purposes. That is the first part, and the second part stipulates that it must be provided by a society or institution which has been founded with the object of reviving national pastimes. What does that really mean? What society or institution has the Solicitor-General in mind "founded with the object of reviving national pastimes"? Would the case of the Jockey Club come under that head as a society founded for providing national pastimes? Would cricket clubs, or anything of that kind, come under that heading? It seems to me to be an extraordinarily wide expression, namely, "any society founded with the object of reviving national pastimes." I have supported the Government on the Committee stage and I am not very much in favour of these exemptions from a tax which I look upon as an excellent tax, and I want to know somewhat in detail what the Government means by excluding all these various things which are neither educational nor scientific, but which are conducted by certain societies anxious to provide national pastimes.

I cannot say at the moment that a society like the Jockey Club would come within the definition of this Amendment. It is intended for societies specially founded to revive national pastimes. I have been told something about Morris dancers, and I think the words of the Amendment would cover other cases that will arise. In regard to the Eisteddfod, I have some hesitation in dealing with a matter with which I am not very familiar, but I should have thought that any committee which holds not only an educational meeting, but gives or organises entertainments where artists of great distinction give their services, and where large numbers of people congregate, would probably come within the Bill. It may be, but I do not want to say it definitely, that the promoters of the Eisteddfod can bring themselves within one of the exceptions; for instance, within the exception relating to a society "not conducted for profit." It may be so, but I do not want to commit myself.

As entertainments of this character might not be covered by the Clause as it now stands, I would like to know if the right hon. Gentleman will promise that this point will be considered either here or elsewhere?

I quite agree that this is a very important point, so far as Eisteddfodau are concerned. There is an Eisteddfod held in my own district every year. The funds are devoted entirely to educational purposes. It is not promoted by a society or institution, but is promoted entirely by a committee of organisers who have this work at heart. Each year they have made a profit which was devoted to giving scholarships to different secondary schools in the district. I think that if the words "or by a committee" were put in after "institution," that would meet the point.

I think that we ought to press this point. Some of the Eisteddfodau are profitable and others are not. If they do not come in, some words should be inserted in order to exempt them from any contribution.

We cannot get away from the fact that this portion of the Bill has not been thoroughly thought out. I am sorry to have to come to that conclusion, because I came here to-day to support the Government in everything which they suggest. But we have got from the opposite side of the House a perfectly correct account of the position of these national Welsh meetings—the Eisteddfod. I happen to know that one was held in Liverpool, and a considerable guarantee fund had to be got up and a committee was formed. That is what they always do. A very large amount of money had to be guaranteed to cover the expenses. Very often the expenses are scarcely covered, or there is a very narrow margin. Considerable expense is often involved. I was also interested in one held in Carnarvon. There a hall had to be built, a very large hall, which has been of great advantage to the district since. There is no doubt, also, that there is a class of entertainment, such as was referred to by an hon. Member on those benches, which has not been dealt with by the Government. I refer to the entertainments got up by children in school under their teachers. Then it is perfectly clear that the Eisteddfod is not altogether held with the object of reviving a national pastime. I do not think that we should bring any of those entertainments strictly within the wording of any of the Amendments so far proposed. Personally, I feel very great difficulty in supporting the Government when the Question comes to be put that this Clause stand part.

If a narrow definition is to be applied to the word "society," it is quite clear that committees running Eisteddfodau do not come within the Clause, but I should have thought, as the learned Solicitor-General says, that when a group of people are banded together for the purpose of organising an Eisteddfod they would be a society. I cannot see why a committee got together for the purpose of organising an Eisteddfod would not be a society. If the learned Solicitor-General can give us an assurance that the word "society" here is not used in any narrow sense, but would cover a group of people organised together for the purpose of running such entertainment not at a profit, that might meet the case. I think that the Government, in order to meet some point about Morris dances, have made the Clause of very much wider extension than they need have done. The words "society or institution which has been founded with the object of reviving national pastimes" constitute a very wide expression. It may happen that in Wales Rugby football will gradually die out and that an association would be started to revive it. In that case Rugby football would not be taxed, because it was being promoted by a society whose object was to revive a national pastime. If the words are only wanted to meet the case of Morris dances, some other way of dealing with the matter should be found.

I think that the position might be met if the learned Solicitor-General agreed to insert the words "or committee" after the words "society or institution." It is well known that committees are established to organise Eisteddfodau and that guarantees are paid into them, and, as a rule, no funds are left after expenses are paid.

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, after the word "society" to leave out the word "or."

In the case of these Eisteddfodau, if there is a profit made it is always given to a charitable or educational purpose.

I accept the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment in proposed Amendment made: After the word "institution," insert the words "or committee."

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, after the word "conducted," to insert the words "or established."

I beg the Government to consider what this means. An institution or committee may be established, not with the intention of being worked for a profit, but it may in the course of time actually be carried on for a profit, provided that it was originally established with no such intention.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to leave out all the words after the word "profit."

Surely the Government, if they accept this Amendment, would have everything which they want to cover except Morris dancing, and even that might be held to be "partly educational or partly scientific purposes." The words which I desire to have omitted are extraordinarily wide, and for an Act of Parliament seem to be absolutely unnecessary. It is exceedingly objectionable to use these vague words when you have to construe them afterwards. "Partly educational or partly scientific purposes, by a society or institution or committee not conducted or established for profit," should be sufficient.

I am sorry that I cannot accept the Amendment. The Chancellor of the Exchequer tried to meet the points which were raised. These words have been accepted by my right hon. Friend and agreed to. I do not think that they cover a wide field.

Amendment to proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Proposed words, as amended, there inserted in the Bill.

6.0 P.M.

I beg to move, at the end of paragraph ( c ), to insert the words "Where the Commissioners are satisfied that the whole of the net profits of an entertainment are devoted to philanthropic or charitable purposes and that the whole of the expenses of the entertainment do not exceed twenty per cent. of the takings, they shall repay to the proprietors the amount of the Entertainments Duty paid in respect of the entertainment."

I should like to make two suggestions on this Amendment. The first is that the word "promoters" should be added to the word "proprietors," because many of these concerts and entertainments are got up by promoters, and consequently the proprietor of the hall has really nothing to do with the profits, and the money should be given to the promoters of the entertainment and to the proprietor of the hall as well, in cases where he is a promoter.

If the hon. Member will look at the Bill he will see in the definition of the terms used in the Clause, that the expression "proprietor" includes "any person responsible for the management of the entertainment."

That meets my point. The other point I should like to suggest is that the application to the Commissioners for a return of part of the tax or taxes that have been paid is a very complicated provision, and I submit, as an alternative, that application should be made to the local Inland Revenue officers, because the people who promote these entertainments for charitable and philanthropic purposes are really poor people, who have not the slightest idea who these Commissioners are. I understand that the Commissioners are the Commissioners of Inland Revenue. These people have no idea where their head offices are situated, and therefore I think it would be very much better if the applications were made to the local Inland Revenue officers, or some other local body, who could test whether the expenses exceeded the 20 per cent. allowed by the Amendment. I believe the suggestion which I make would very much facilitate the working of this scheme, and it would also give power to the local Inland Revenue officers to supervise the bills for expenses. I think that would be a very much better method of testing whether the expenses have been exceeded or not, than for these people to have to apply to the Commissioners and to send up their accounts from the different localities for inspection. I may say that it is the practice now, in a very large number of towns, to have a local advisory committee, presided over by the mayor, to decide whether these charitable concerts or entertainments can be proceeded with. I think it would be very much better to deal with these matters locally than to have them dealt with in London.

I do not think the people would have the difficulty which the hon. Gentleman thinks they would experience in this matter, nor do I think that they are so ignorant as not to know who the Commissioners are I certainly object very much to bringing in the mayor and other local people.

I rose to ask whether I am right in understanding that the words in the Amendment are "net profits" or "net proceeds"? There is a great difference between proceeds and profits. As I understand the proposal in the Amendment, it is that an amount not exceeding 20 per cent. of the proceeds should be allowed for expenses. If the word "profits" is put in I think it would be very difficult to understand what is meant, because profit would mean what is left after all expenses have been paid. Therefore, I hope that my right hon. Friend will withdraw the word "profits" and insert instead thereof the word "proceeds," or some other words which will show the amount of the gross receipts.

A large number of concerts and entertainments of a charitable and religious character are given, but the takings do not always represent the amount received, and it is a question whether the word "takings" or "receipts" should be used. In addition to the money paid for admission there are generally contributions by outsiders, and it seems to me that if the word "takings" were used it would rather interfere with the matter, because the takings may be comparatively small, while, on the other hand, if the actual donations be added, they would be exempted from this duty. Will the Solicitor-General consider the desirability of inserting the word "receipts" instead of the word "takings"?

Does this new Sub-section which the Solicitor-General proposes come within the exemption Clause? The Amendment, as I understand, refers to a process of repayment.

Exemption only comes in the case where there is no charge at all for the expenses, but we are now dealing with the cases where there are expenses. I accept the words "net proceeds" instead of the words "net profits," and also the word "receipts."

Amendment to the proposed Amendment made: After the word "net" ["net profits"] leave out the word "profits," and insert instead thereof the word "proceeds."

Further Amendment to the proposed Amendment made: After the word "the" ["the whole of the takings"] leave out the word "takings," and insert instead thereof the word "receipts."—[ Sir G. Cave. ]

I have already criticised the very important point as to the danger of these charity concerts being abused. I should like to ask the Solicitor-General whether he will arrange that the Commissioners shall be able to call for accounts, and that these shall be available for inspection by other people? I cannot help thinking that would be a very good check upon the class of person I have already indicated to the House, who runs an entertainment and clearly makes a profit for himself. The Commissioners could make it a condition that if anyone applied for the rebate he must send up accounts which could be examined by anybody, in order to see that an entertainment had been given and that the expenses were 20 per cent. of the takings.

Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

Further Amendment made: At the end of Sub-section (5) insert the words, "In this Sub-section the Scottish Education Department as respect entertainments in Scotland, and the Lord Lieutenant as respects entertainments in Ireland, shall be substituted for the Board of Education."—[ Sir G. Cave. ]

I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (6).

I move this Amendment, not for the purpose of pressing it, but to get some definition from the Solicitor-General of exactly what form of entertainments do really come under this new tax. The form of entertainments I wish to bring before him are those which especially affect my Constituency, and I am sure affect the constituencies of many other hon. Members. First of all, I want to know about piers. In my Constituency there are at least six piers, where the maximum charge, under the Pier and Harbour Orders, is 2d. The Order is to the effect that every person who uses the piers for walking exercise or any other purpose, except embarking or disembarking, shall each and every time pay a sum not exceeding 2d. The charge is always 2d.; never less than 2d. From what has fallen from the Financial Secretary obviously I suppose if those piers are simply used for promenading they are exempt from the tax. On some occasions a band is playing on the piers, but no extra charge is made. Visitors come from the big towns of Lancashire in their thousands, and when the band plays dance music they dance and enjoy themselves, and no extra charge is made. Is the Entertainment Tax to be levied in that case? If it is levied at the pier head, the right hon. Gentleman will see that it will be practically impossible to enforce it. If you ask the young lady who is going in if she is going to dance she is sure to say, "Yes," but if nobody asks her she is in the position of a spectator and exempt from the tax, if she is not lucky enough to find a partner; she has no right to pay the halfpenny tax, and I am sure the Government with all its sins would not like to penalise those young ladies who go there to amuse themselves. Then there are other forms of entertainment in my Constituency, like the Tower. At the Tower there is a uniform charge of 6d. for admission, and the people who go there visit the aquariums and menageries, and there is an enormous ballroom where there is a band and where dancing goes on without any extra payment. If they dance or if they stand and watch other people dancing, have they to pay the tax? There are no professional dancers there, and the dancing is all taken part in by people who pay for admission to the Tower.

The hon. Gentleman has put a point which I intended to bring forward in Committee in the form of an addition exempting a place where a uniform charge is made irrespective of any entertainment or not. I think that would cover the point. The Financial Secretary said it was clear there would be no charge in such cases, and he added that they were not going to go about the country seeking out places where there was innocent amusement in order to try and get a little duty out of them. It was on account of those words that I did not propose my Amendment. I support what the hon. Gentleman said, and I think it would be wise to make the matter clear by an Amendment.

For admission to a pier I do not think there would be a tax charged, and if a band plays on the pier that does not seem to make the tax any more chargeable. If there is a separate charge to be admitted to hear the band then of course the tax applies. With regard to that well-known place of amusement which is called the Tower at Blackpool, I understand that the admission includes certain amusements.

If that is so, of course the tax stands; and if there are side shows to which you are admitted on further payment, then of course there is a further tax.

Suppose that there are no side shows, and that the sixpence paid for admission entitled you to go to the galleries and the building generally, and that the people who have gone in go to those galleries and also dance to the music of a band, will the Entertainment Tax then be levied on them simply for dancing?

You are getting some form of entertainment, and surely then you cannot complain that you have to pay the tax.

Supposing they only pay sixpence and dance, will they have to pay an Entertainment Tax or not?

I should think so. If you go into a place to see people dance it may be an "amusement, game, or sport." I cannot, however, be expected to deal with every case now, and I think I must leave my hon. Friend to find out afterwards. With regard to what was said by the hon. Member for Ayrshire (Sir W. Beale), I do not think we could accept his suggested Amendment, because all the proprietor would have to do to evade the tax would be to make a uniform charge for entrance, whether there was an entertainment or not.

I hope it may be possible to consider this matter further, as at the present moment the definition is exceedingly loose. At present it would seem as if a subscription dance would fall within the words, and I rather understood in Committee that it was not intended that the tax should extend to that case at all. There was also a reference to swimming baths, and piers.

I am glad that the Chancellor of the Duchy is present, because in Committee he gave a very clear definition on the point under consideration. He said if you went to a dancing hall to dance yourself you would not have to pay, but if it were to see somebody else dance you would. That seems to me to be a very clear definition. The words are now, however, embodied in the Bill, and the judges may not pay any attention to them. It is quite clear that the meaning and desire of the Government is that if you dance for yourself you do not pay, but that if I, for instance, went to see my hon. Friend (Mr. Ashley) dance with one of his constituents, who was unable before that to find a partner, I should have to pay, but my hon. Friend and the lady would not.

As my hon. and learned Friend has agreed, a definition is a matter of extreme difficulty. We propose to administer the tax in the sense which was explained by me to the House the other day. I submit with great deference that the words of the Clause bear that meaning:

"The expression entertainment includes any exhibition, performance, amusement, game or sport, to which persons are admitted for payment. The expression admission means admission as a spectator or one of an audience."

Therefore I do not think it could possibly be held that if you are admitted to a dance that you are admitted as a spectator, or one of an audience.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to add the following new Sub-section:

"(7) Nothing in this Section can be deemed to impose any Entertainment Duty on nominal payments made for a programme or seat at musical performances given in any public park or open space."

The Financial Secretary on the Second Reading said that a park was not an entertainment because you enjoyed the beauties of nature in a park, and apparently you were not entertained by them. If a band plays in a park there seems to be some doubt as to the position. The payments which are made are not for the entertainment, but on the other hand they go to the people who supply the entertainment. I would ask the Solicitor-General to clear up the point.

I do not think the duty would attach in the case to which my hon. Friend refers. If you pay for a programme you do not pay for admission, and if you pay for a seat in a place in which you are entitled to stand you are not paying for admission either. In any case, in administering the Act there is no intention to administer it in that way.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

CLAUSE 2.—(Supplemental Provisions as to Entertainments Duty.)

(1) The Commissioners may make Regulations for securing the payment of Entertainments Duty and generally for carrying the provisions of this Act as to Entertainments Duty into effect, and in particular—

( a ) for the supply and use of stamps or stamped tickets, or for the stamping of tickets sent to be stamped; and for securing the defacement of stamps when used; and

( b ) for the use of tickets covering the admission of more than one person

( c ) for controlling the use of barriers (including the prevention of the use of the same barrier for payments of a different amount), and for securing proper records of admission by means of barriers.

If any person acts in contravention of or fails to comply with any such Regulations he shall be liable in respect of each offence to an Excise penalty of fifty pounds.

(2) Any officer of the Commissioners authorised by them for the purpose may enter any place of entertainment while the entertainment is proceeding, and any place ordinarily used as a place of entertainment at any reasonable times, with a view to seeing whether the provisions of this Act or any Regulations made there under as to Entertainments Duty are being complied with.

If any person prevents or obstructs the entry of any officer so authorised he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds.

(3) The provisions (including the penal provisions) of the Stamp Duties Management Act, 1891, as amended by any subsequent Act, and Section sixty-five of the Post Office Act, 1908, shall apply to the stamps used for denoting Entertainments Duty.

(4) The Commissioners may, if they think fit, by agreement in writing with any local authority, or police authority, arrange for the exercise by that authority, either concurrently with the Commissioners or to the exclusion of the Commissioners of any powers of the Commissioners with respect to entertainments and Entertainments Duty; and so far as required for the purpose of giving effect to any such arrangement, the provisions of this Act and any Regulations made thereunder with respect to entertainments and Entertainments Duty shall have effect as if the local authority or police authority and any officer authorised by that authority were mentioned therein in addition to, or substituted for, the Commissioners and an officer of the Commissioners.

Any arrangement under this provision may provide for the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any expenses incurred by the local authority or police authority in carrying out the arrangement.

The expression "local authority" means, for the purposes of this provision as respects the Administrative County of London, the London County Council, except that in the City of London the Common Council shall be the local authority for all purposes except cinematograph or theatrical entertainments; as respects any borough, the council of the borough; as respects any urban district with a population of over ten thousand, the district council; and as respects any administrative county (excluding the area of any such borough or urban district), the county council:

Provided that where the council of any such borough (not being a county borough) or of any such urban district agree in writing with the council of the administrative county that the borough or urban district should be included in the area of the administrative county for the purposes of this provision, the borough or urban district shall be so included.

In the application of this provision to Scotland the expression "borough" means a Royal, Parliamentary, or Police Burgh; the expression "administrative county" means a county; and references to county boroughs and urban districts shall not apply.

Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), paragraph ( c ), after the word "barriers" ["use of barriers"], insert the words "or mechanical contrivances."

After the word "barrier" ["same barrier"], insert the words "or mechanical contrivance."

After the word "barriers" ["means of barriers"] insert the words "or mechanical contrivances."—[ Sir G. Cave. ]

I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (4).

I move this Amendment on behalf of the Provincial Entertainments Proprietors' and Managers' Association, Limited, and I cannot do better than read to the House a short memorandum which they have written on the subject. They say: I think they are right.

There is no intention of using local authorities to pry into the concerns of local proprietors, but we must try to find simple machinery for the working of the Act. If we had not adopted this course, one of the first objections that would have been taken to the tax would have been that we had not made a provision of this kind, that we were going to employ a large number of new officials who would go about the country and make the collection of the tax very expensive. It is very difficult to meet the views of the House in a matter of this kind. If we do not use the local authorities, if we override the local machinery, we are always told that we are multiplying officials, establishing a bureaucracy, and keeping everything in the hands either of the Customs authorities or of the Inland Revenue. If we do use the local authorities it is suggested that we had far better keep to our own staff. We are satisfied that for the purposes of inspection the local authorities and the police authorities have their officials who are accustomed to deal with various breaches of the law. During war time we really cannot, without engaging new men, provide the officials centrally to inspect places of amusement and see that the regulations are being complied with. My hon. Friend said that as we were going to take certified accounts that difficulty would not arise. But we do not take certified accounts except where money is paid in advance. There will be thousands of cases where we shall have to rely on the machinery of tickets and barriers. Therefore I hope the hon. Member will not attach too much importance to the good-humoured grounds of objection of those whom he represents.

Amendment negatived.

CLAUSE 3.—(Tax on Matches.)

(3) Where the Commissioners are satisfied that a box of matches contains more than eighty matches, the Customs and Excise Duty to be charged on any matches so contained exceeding eighty shall bear the rate of one shilling and ninepence and one shilling and eightpence, respectively, for every ten thousand matches, instead of three shillings and sixpence and three shillings and fourpence.

I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (3).

In Committee this Clause was amended so that on matches in boxes containing more than eighty the duty is to be one-half the ordinary amount. I cannot understand that Amendment in any shape or form. The duty is 3s. 4d. upon every 10,000 matches made and sold in this country, and it is suggested that if they are sold in boxes containing more than eighty the duty is to be only half that amount. There is nothing about boxes in the Clause at all; it is just a tax on matches by the 10,000. On 10,000 or 1,000,000 you can tell what it is. Why you should make a difference in reference to the size of the boxes absolutely baffles my intelligence. We were told that unless some allowance of this kind were made certain businesses would cease altogether. I cannot understand what that means. I took the trouble when I got home that night to pick up a new box of matches and to count the matches in it. There were ninety. I then inquired whether there were any other matches in the house, and I was told there were not. All the boxes contained ninety. Therefore all the matches that I use would pay only half the tax. I cannot conceive on what principle that is arranged. These matches are wax matches, and if it had been decided that the tax on wax matches should be half what it is on wooden matches I could have understood it. But that is not the arrangement. The manufacturers of wax matches will still have to pay 3s. 4d. per 10,000. But if they sell them in boxes of ninety they will only pay half the tax that they will have to pay if they sell them in boxes containing sixty or eighty. There are small boxes containing sixty, for which a charge of 1d. is made. If instead of sixty the manufacturers put ninety or eight-one matches, they will pay only half the tax. I think the explanation given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was entirely inconclusive.

The hon. Member does not perfectly appreciate what this new Sub-section means. He does not pay half the tax on his box of ninety matches. On the contrary, he pays the full rate on the first eighty matches in the box and half-rate on the remaining ten. Half-rate is charged on any excess over eighty. He regards that as a very mischievous Amendment. It was put in because we can do it without any appreciable loss of revenue at all. As a consumer of matches only, and in no other sense, the hon. Member is of no importance. The consumption of these matches is almost entirely among the working classes. The bulk of matches are sold in boxes containing less than eighty. Every attempt has been made to push these larger boxes, but without success. The reason is quite obvious. The ordinary possessor of a pocket does not want to risk the disfigurement of his clothes and the encumbering of his person with a larger package than is necessary. I am told that there are only a few factories, mainly in Ireland and in the East End of London, that still make these larger boxes. They have special machinery and so on, and it is no use, from the point of view of revenue, to destroy that trade. As we are putting a considerable impost upon the trade and can make this concession, I think, without sacrificing more than a very few thousand pounds, if as much as that, it does not seem to me that there is any reason to complain. I hope the hon. Member will withdraw his Amendment when he sees, as I think he must now, that he has misapprehended the effect of the alteration.

I do not think the hon. Member for Yarmouth would have proposed this Amendment if he had been intimately acquainted with the intricacies of the match trade. I think he would still less have proposed it if he had been aware of the fact that his objections, if given effect to, would put four or five of the manufacturers of matches in this country out of the business. I do not in any way suppose that my hon. Friend would have the least desire to put a number of British manufacturers out of business. As a matter of fact this Clause is absolutely necessary if you are not going to put out of existence the one match factory in Ireland and also two important match manufactories in the East End of London. These matches are big wooden matches, and for the most part they are the matches of the poor, and only bought by the poor. In fact, these large boxes of wooden matches are sold almost exclusively in Ireland and in Yorkshire. It is rather a diminishing trade, because, as my right hon. Friend just said, these big boxes are what people do not like in their pockets. They would not have been able to keep their trade if this provision had not been made. Also, I venture to suggest to my hon. Friend that if this Amendment had not been put in about £40,000 worth of machinery would have become entirely useless. For these reasons I strongly appeal to my hon. Friend, knowing his views on labour as I do, not to persist in his objection.

May I ask the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, as to the statement made by my hon. Friend (Mr. T. P. O'Connor) that £40,000 is involved in the plant, and to which the Amendment offers relief, whether that in any way represents the amount the Exchequer hopes to yield up by this concession? What, in effect, is the amount which the Exchequer concedes in order to maintain this industry?

I ask leave to withdraw nay Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment made: In Sub-section (3) leave out the word "bear" ["shall bear the rate of"], and insert instead thereof the words "be at."—[ Sir G. Cave. ]

CLAUSE 4.—(Duties on Table Waters.)

(1) There shall be charged, levied and paid upon all table waters as defined by this Section, which are sold or kept for sale in Great Britain or Ireland, the following duties of Excise (in this Act referred to as "table water duties"), namely:—

On table waters which contain as the result of the ordinary process of manufacture, or are prepared in the ordinary process of manufacture with sugar or other sweetening material, or which are fermented beverages, a duty at the rate of fourpence per gallon; and

On other table waters, a duty at the rate of eightpence per gallon.

(2) "Table waters," for the purposes of this Act, includes any aerated waters and any beverages sold or kept for sale in bottles, other than—

( a ) Any liquor for the retail sale of which an Excise licence is required; and

( b ) Syrups or other liquors intended to be consumed only in a diluted form.

The Amendment of the hon. Member for Liverpool seems to me to do one of two things, either it makes no difference, or it increases the charge. It must do one or the other.

I understand the Government are meeting my point in another way, and therefore I do not propose to move my Amendment.

Amendment made: After the word "shall" ["there shall be charged"] insert the words "as from the first day of May, nineteen hundred and sixteen."—[ Sir G. Cave. ]

CLAUSE 5.—(Duty on Cider.)

There shall be charged, levied and paid on all cider or perry which is sold or kept for sale in Great Britain or Ireland a duty of Excise (in this Act referred to as "cider duty") at the rate of fourpence per gallon.

I beg to move, after the word "shall" ["there shall be charged"], to insert the words "as from the first day of May, nineteen hundred and sixteen."

I would like to ask a question of the right hon. and learned Gentleman which you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, ruled as irrelevant the other day when the Clause was before the Committee. Are these liquors which it is now proposed to tax excisable liquors? In point of fact, will the regulations regarding the sale be the same as they are now? This is a very important point, and ought to be cleared up before we go much further.

Does my hon. Friend mean to ask me whether the limits which are in force for sale of intoxicating liquor under the Excise Act will be extended to mineral waters, etc.?

Oh, no, I do not mean that at all. Let me take a concrete instance. There are certain beers being produced at the present time which pay a duty in the ordinary way. They contain less than 2 per cent. of alcohol or proof spirit. All these table waters, ginger beer, and so on, are assumed to contain less than 2 per cent. They do not. As a matter of fact, very often they contain more. They can be sold in any way and at any hour.

Surely, Sir, that is the date on which this particular tax is coming into force? Surely the present is the opportunity to ask the question I am putting? If not, when can I ask it?

I beg leave to leave out the word "May," and to insert instead thereof the word "October."

The object of the Amendment is to bring the Cider Duty under the same conditions as those accorded by the right hon. Gentleman in regard to the Match Duties—that is to say, to exempt existing stock. Cider, unlike other drinks, such as mineral waters or beer, is only made in the autumn. No more can be made until the next season's crop of apples comes in. Therefore, the Amendment will have the effect of exempting the existing stocks. I think it only a fair proposal, because there is little doubt that a certain amount of the cider which is now made cannot be sold. It is of the cheaper kind, and it is just the kind that will not keep; therefore there would be considerable waste. If the right hon. Gentleman would be content with postponing the new duty until the new season's cider is made in the autumn, farmers and dealers would have a better notion of what quantity they are likely to sell, and would be able to accommodate their trade to the new conditions.

I beg to second the Amendment of the hon. Member for Ross. I represent a district which is much interested in cider, and consequently this duty of 4d. per gallon will be a particular hardship amongst the retail sellers As a rule the cider is sold at a penny per glass or mug. To put the duty on the smallest price possible would make the penny glass threehalfpence, and thus raise it 50 per cent. to the consumer. There are many manufacturers who are not very large manufacturers. They, perhaps, make 1,000 or 2,000 gallons of cider. They store it in casks of all sorts and sizes and I should like to ask—in fact, I put down a question on the point—as to how it is proposed to measure the existing stocks of cider? It will be a most difficult thing. Many of these casks are only half-full. If you insert, as is usually done to measure liquids, a measuring stick in the cask, you break what is upon the top of the cask, which is known then, and at a later stage, by the rather opposite names of scum and mud, and the cider, having thus been broken into, will go bad. Therefore, if you do measure in that manner, you will condemn a great deal of cider and make it of no use whatever. That will mean hardship to those who are connected with the industry. I join with the hon. Member for Ross in asking that the duty be postponed until the cider is again made in the autumn of this year.

I very cordially support this Amendment. It is a fair solution of a real difficulty. From all inquiries I have made, and from the Debate to which I listened the other night, I believe that the Government are treating this question on the whole very fairly. It is obvious that there must be some taxation on cider; otherwise, it would be the only drink available in the country without a tax. There is a real difficulty in regard to the stocks on the hands of the farmers and others which was made last autumn. A good deal of it is of an inferior quality, and, therefore, incapable in any case of a high price. It was made when there was no prospect of a tax, or at all events independently of any sort of an approaching tax, and it will be thrown on the market. Probably a large amount of that cider will not be available at all, being unsaleable. This will really be a very great hardship. Supposing those concerned try to keep it. If they do, the casks in which it has been kept will not be available for next year's production. What is really wanted—the particular point met by this Amendment—is not to tax existing stocks, just as you are not going to tax the existing stocks of the match manufacturers. The loss to the revenue cannot be more than a comparatively small sum. If the full year's revenue from this taxation is only to be £100,000, I cannot myself imagine that you stand to lose more than £20 or £30 by adopting this Amendment. If you do adopt the Amendment, you temper the severe wind to the shorn lamb—in other words, you allow the trade to see its way, and without entering upon the new era of taxation under very great difficulties. They are prepared beforehand. I am sure it will be eventually for the benefit of the industry, instead of, as now proposed, crippling the trade at a very awkward stage.

The question before us ought to be considered solely upon technical grounds. A great many technical points have been brought to notice in connection with the cider business. I cordially support the Amendment.

7.0 P.M.

I can quite understand any industry that is going to be affected by a tax being anxious that the Government should postpone that tax for six months. As a matter of fact, I believe I am betraying no secret when I say that the trade in mineral waters and in brewed ginger beers and herb beers did make an appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to postpone the operation of the tax upon the competitors to cider. I think that if the right hon. Gentleman listens to a request that in the case of another beverage taxed under the same Bill there should be a postponement of six months, the very much larger trade will feel that they have a distinct grievance in not being treated on the same lines. Looked at from the point of view of the revenue, I should have thought that it practically meant the abandonment of the tax for about twelve months, because it would mean that any cider which now exists, or could be made and sold before October, would escape duty, and I only rise to say that I believe the big industry the Chancellor of the Exchequer has already taxed, namely, the mineral water industry, and the manufacturers of ginger beer and herb beers would feel that they had a distinct grievance if he met a claim on the part of a rival beverage and postponed a tax proposed in the same Bill for six months. The only reason given is that it is inconvenient to the manufacturers of cider that they should pay the tax immediately. Of course it would be inconvenient in every way, but I cannot see that the trade in cider has really any stronger case than the trade in other forms of beverages that come within the scope of this Bill, and I hope the Government will treat the whole alike.

I hope my hon. and gallant Friend will not press this Amendment. He and his Friends have put up a gallant and good-tempered fight on behalf of cider, and I can quite understand he and his Friends who are interested in cider districts in this country should take every opportunity to try and temper the wind, as the hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King) said, for those who have got to pay the tax, but there really is no case for differentiating between cider and soda water. The hon. and gallant Member for Boss (Captain Clive) let the Resolution on soda water go by, and pounced on the cider. [An HON. MEMBER: "It is quite a different thing!"] The hon. Baronet the Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir G. Younger) will be able to inform his colleagues on those benches as to what happens when a new tax is put on beer. You cannot look for, and go round and examine, the hundreds of thousands of stocks. You do not know how old they are, or how many may be sold before next October. All you would do would be to set an enormous task to the officials of the Customs and Excise, and lose a valuable amount of revenue, in order to give a preference in one case. I do not think that will commend itself to the House.

I do not think the right hon. Gentleman really appreciates the real difficulties. As regards searching for stocks, I do not suggest that. I only suggest that the beverages sold before 1st October should be exempt. If any existing stocks are not sold by then, it is the misfortune of the owner.

Question, "That the word 'May' stand part of the proposed Amendment," put, and agreed to.

Question, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill," put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 6.—(Supplemental Provisions as to Table Water and Cider Duties)

Sub-section (1). The Commissioners may make regulations for securing the payment of table-water and cider duties, and generally for carrying into effect the provisions of this Act as to table-water and cider duties, and in particular for requiring and verifying particulars of output, stocks, and sales, and for the registration or licensing of premises where table waters or cider liable to duty are made or sold, and for the charge of a duty on the licence in the case of persons using a machine or mechanical contrivance for making aerated water of any description; and the Commissioners may by those regulations provide for any exemption required for the purpose of facilitating the bottling and rebottling of any table waters or cider, or the sale of any table waters or cider to dealers, or for the purpose of relieving from duty any table waters or cider intended for exportation or ships' stores.

If any person acts in contravention of or fails to comply with any such regulation, the article in respect of which the offence is committed shall be forfeited, and the person committing the offence shall be liable in respect of each offence to an Excise penalty of fifty pounds.

Amendments made: Leave out the words "premises where" ["licensing of premises where table waters"], and insert instead thereof the words "persons by whom the premises at which."

After the word "dealers" ["table waters or cider to dealers"], insert the words "or for farm consumption."—[ Sir G. Cave ].

Title

Amendment made: Leave out the words "Railway fares."—[ Sir G. Cave. ]

Bill, as amended on Report, to be read the third time to-morrow (Tuesday).

Ways and Means [4th April].—Report

Eighth and subsequent Resolutions reported,

Cocoa

8. "That in lieu of the duties of Customs now payable on cocoa imported into Great Britain or Ireland there shall, on and after the fifth day of April, nineteen hundred and sixteen, be charged the following duties, that is to say:—

£

s.

d.

Cocoa, the lb

0

0

6

Cocoa husks and shells, the cwt

0

12

0

Cocoa butter, the lb

0

0

6

And it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

Coffee

9. "That in lieu of the duties of Customs now payable on coffee imported into Great Britain or Ireland there shall, on and after the fifth day of April, nineteen hundred and sixteen, be charged the following duties, that is to say:—

£

s.

d.

Coffee (not kiln-dried, roasted, or ground), the cwt.

2

2

0

Coffee (kiln-dried, roasted, or ground, the lb.

0

0

6

And it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

Chicory (Customs)

10. "That in lieu of the duties of Customs now payable on chicory imported into Great Britain or Ireland there shall, on and after the fifth day of April, nineteen hundred and sixteen, be charged the following duty, that is to say:—

£

s.

d.

Chicory, raw or kiln-dried, the cwt.

1

19

8

Chicory, roasted or ground, the lb.

0

0

6

And it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

Chicory, Etc. (Excise)

11. "That in lieu of the duty of Excise now payable on chicory there shall, on and after the fifth day of April, nineteen hundred and sixteen, be charged the following duty, that is to say:—

£

s.

d.

Chicory, raw or kiln-dried, the cwt.

1

18

6

£

s.

d.

For every quarter of a pound of any such article, substance, or mixture

0

0

And it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

Sugar (Customs)

12. "That in lieu of the duties of Customs now payable on sugar imported into Great Britain or Ireland there shall, on and after the fifth day of April, nineteen hundred and sixteen, be charged the following duties:—

£

s.

d.

Sugar of a polarisation exceeding 98 degrees, the cwt.

0

14

0

Sugar of a polarisation not exceeding 76 degrees, the cwt.

0

6

9

and intermediate duties varying between 14s. and 6s. 9d. on sugar of a polarisation not exceeding 98 and exceeding 76 degrees;

Molasses (including all sugar and extracts from sugar which cannot be tested by the polariscope):—

if containing 70 per cent. or more of sweetening matter, the cwt.

0

8

10½

if containing less than 70 per cent. and more than 50 per cent. of sweetening matter, the cwt.

0

6

if containing not more than 50 per cent. of sweetening matter, the cwt.

0

3

Glucose:—

solid, the cwt.

0

8

10½

liquid, the cwt.

0

6

£

s.

d.

Saccharin (including substances of a like nature or use), the oz.

0

4

6

And it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

Sugar (Excise)

13. "That in lieu of the duties of Excise now payable on sugar made in Great Britain or Ireland there shall, on and after the fifth day of April, nineteen hundred and sixteen, be charged the following duties:—

£

s.

d.

Sugar of a polarisation exceeding 98 degrees, the cwt.

0

11

8

Sugar of a polarisation not exceeding 76 degrees, the cwt.

0

5

7

and intermediate duties varying between 11s. 8d. and 5s. 7d. on sugar of a polarisation not exceeding 98 and exceeding 76 degrees;

Molasses (including all sugar and extracts from sugar which cannot be tested by the polariscope):—

if containing 70 per cent. or more of sweetening matter, the cwt.

0

7

if containing less than 70 per cent. and more than 50 per cent. of sweetening matter, the cwt.

0

5

if containing not more than 50 per cent. of sweetening matter, the cwt.

0

2

Glucose—

solid, the cwt.

0

8

10½

liquid, the cwt.

0

6

Saccharin (including substances of a like nature or use), the oz.

0

4

6

And it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

Motor Cars

14. "That in lieu of any Excise Duty now payable for motor cars there shall be charged, both for Great Britain and Ireland, in each year (including the year beginning the first day of January, nineteen hundred and sixteen) for every motor bicycle, motor tricycle, and for every other motor car, duties at the following rates calculated in accordance with horse power, the unit of horse power for the purposes of the duty being reckoned in accordance with regulations made by the Treasury for the purpose:—

HORSE POWER.

Duty.

Motor Cars—

£

s.

d.

Not exceeding 6½

4

4

0

Exceeding 6½ and not exceeding 12

6

6

0

Exceeding 12 and not exceeding 16

8

8

0

Exceeding 16 and not exceeding 26

18

18

0

Exceeding 26 and not exceeding 33

25

4

0

Exceeding 33 and not exceeding 40

31

10

0

Exceeding 40 and not exceeding 60

63

0

0

Exceeding 60

126

0

0

Motor Cycles—

Not exceeding 4

2

2

0

Exceeding 4—

Three-quarters of the duty which would be payable in the case of a motor car.

And it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

Income Tax

15. "That—

( a ) Income Tax shall be charged for the year beginning the sixth day of April, nineteen hundred and sixteen, at the rate of five shillings in the pound, and that the same Super-tax be charged for that year as was charged for the year beginning the sixth day of April, nineteen hundred and fifteen; and

( b ) the like provisions shall have effect with respect to the Income Tax so charged, including Super-tax, and the annual value of property, as had effect under Section ten of the Finance Act, 1915, and Part II. of the Finance (No. 2)

( c ) it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

Earned Income

16. That—

( a ) The relief given in respect of earned income shall be modified so as to allow relief only as follows, namely, relief by way of reduction of the rate of the tax to

( b ) It is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

Unearned Income (Graduated Relief)

17. "That—

( a ) The relief given by Section six of the Finance Act, 1914, shall cease, but where the total income of an individual from all sources does not exceed two thousand pounds, such relief shall be given by way of repayment as will reduce the rate of the tax on his unearned income to

( b ) It is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

Provision as to Service in the Navy or Army

18. "That for the purpose of any relief under the Acts relating to Income Tax a person shall not be deemed to have served as a member of the naval or military forces of the Crown unless in the year for which relief is claimed he has served on the active list of the Navy or with the Colours, either out of the British Islands or for at least one month continuously in the British Islands."

Excess Profits Duty

19. "That—

( a ) Excess Profits Duty under Part III. of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915, shall be charged for any accounting period ending on or after the first day of July, nineteen hundred and fifteen; and

( b ) Excess Profits Duty shall be an amount equal to sixty per centum, instead of fifty per centum, of the excess profits in the case of trades or businesses which have commenced after the fourth day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen, for all accounting periods ending after the fourth day of August, nineteen hundred and fifteen, and in the case of other trades or businesses for any accounting period ending after the completion of the first year in respect of which that trade or business has been liable to that duty; and

( c ) the Excess Mineral Rights Duty under Section forty-three of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915, shall be an amount equal to sixty per centum, instead of fifty per centum, of the excess rent in the case of minerals which have become subject to a mining lease after the fourth day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen, for all accounting years, and

Resolutions agreed to.

Excess Profits in Case of Companies Where Directors Have Controlling Interest

Resolution reported.

20. "That companies or other bodies corporate whose directors (including managers) who are remunerated out of the funds of the company or body corporate have a controlling interest may be treated, for the purposes of Excess Profits Duty for any accounting period (including a past accounting period) as if they were firms and not companies or bodies corporate."

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."

That seems to me rather vague, and perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will explain what is meant?

This Resolution is to make clear the provision in the Finance Act of last year in cases where directors have a controlling influence. I thought it would have been better for me to explain this point on the Second Reading, but as the hon. Baronet has raised the question now I will explain the point. The second Finance Act of 1915 provided that the deductions allowed for directors' fees from the profits of a limited company shall not exceed the amount allowed during the prewar period. This is in order to prevent the dissipation of profits. This provision arose from the fact that in the case of a private limited company the whole or major part of the profits are often, for perfectly legitimate reasons, paid away as the remuneration of the directors, who are virtually the owners of the company. In actual practice it makes very small difference whether the profits are received in the form of dividend or fees. What we are anxious to avoid is when directors have a controlling influence that they should not be able to vote themselves these excess profits, and this Amendment makes that point clear.

When they control the majority of the shares.

Question put, and agreed.

Explanatory Provisions as to Accounting Periods and Accumulating Profits

Resolutions reported,

21. "That it is expedient to declare—

(a) that any period for which the books of a trade or business have been made up for any purpose so that the profits for the period can be readily ascertained may be treated as an accounting period for the purposes of Excess Profits Duty; and

(b) that the profits accumulating during the accounting period are not to be treated for the purposes of Excess Profits Duty as accumulated profits or as capital employed in the trade or business."

Excess Profits Duty on Sale of Assets

22. "That there shall be charged on any sum by which the price given on the sale of any asset capable of producing profits exceeds the pre-war value of that asset a duty of sixty per centum of the excess."

Extended Power to Borrow

23. "That the Treasury may borrow for the purpose of raising any sums which they are authorised to issue under any Consolidated Fund Act or Appropriation Act or for the purpose of paying off any securities issued under any such Act in the same manner as they are authorised to borrow under Sub-section (1) of Section one of the War Loan Act, 1915."

Resolutions agreed to.

Ways and Means [5th April]

Resolution reported,

Amendment of Law

"That it is expedient to amend the Law relating to the National Debt, Customs, and Inland Revenue (including Excise), and to make further provision in connection with Finance."

Resolution agreed to.

Ways and Means

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. MACLEAN in the Chair.]

Table Waters (Customs)

Resolved,

(1) "That there shall, on and after the first day of May, nineteen hundred and sixteen, be charged on all table waters (including aerated waters and other beverages) imported into Great Britain or Ireland the following duties of Customs (namely):—

On table waters which contain as the result of the ordinary process of manufacture, or are prepared in the ordinary process of manufacture with, sugar or other sweetening material, or which are fermented beverages, a duty at the rate of fourpence per gallon; and

On any other table waters a duty at the rate of eightpence per gallon; and so in proportion for any less quantity."— Mr. Montagu. ]

Cider and Perry (Customs)

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That there shall on and after the first day of May, nineteen hundred and sixteen, be charged on cider and perry imported into Great Britain or Ireland a duty of Customs at the rate of fourpence per gallon, and so in proportion for any less quantity."—[ Mr. Montagu. ]

The Committee will remember that when we discussed this question before we sought to collect this tax by means of stamps to be affixed to the bottles. They would have been Excise stamps, so that the imported article as well as the article manufactured at home would have borne the stamp. It became obvious that a Stamp Duty was not a satisfactory method of collection, and in deference to opinion we abandoned the stamp and proceeded to collect the duty on the return of the output of the manufacturer. That would, of course, leave the imported competing article untaxed, and therefore it becomes necessary to impose a Customs Duty both on soda water and cider, and these will come into force on the 1st day of May, the same date as the Excise Duty. This is a change which is necessary in consequence of the alterations we have made.

It is quite obvious that the alteration is necessary. I think, however, that the rate ought to be higher on the imported article.

Question put, and agreed to.

Licences for Sale of Table Waters, Etc., and Cider

Motion made, and Question proposed,

3. "That there shall be charged on a licence to be taken out annually (in such cases as may be required) by persons who sell table waters (including aerated waters and other beverages), and by persons who sell cider or perry, an Excise Duty of ten shillings."—[ Mr. Montagu. ]

Is it perfectly clear that consumption other than for sale will not come under any tax?

I think it is absolutely clear. I do not think the hon. and learned Gentleman was in the House during the Report stage when we put in words to make that point quite clear.

The words which were put in to make the point quite clear are what has raised a doubt in my mind.

Question put, and agreed to.

Tinder Boxes, Etc. (Customs)

Resolved,

4. "That there shall be charged on all the tinder boxes, tinder lighters, and other mechanical and portable contrivances for producing a flame imported into Great Britain or Ireland a duty of Customs of five shillings."—[ Mr. Montagu. ]

Tinder Boxes (Excise)

Motion made, and Question proposed,

5. "That there shall be charged on tinder boxes, tinder lighters, and other mechanical and portable contrivances for producing a flame manufactured in Great Britain or Ireland an Excise Duty of five shillings."—[ Mr. Montagu. ]

Will the right hon. Gentleman explain how he is going to collect this tax?

I understand that practically the whole of them are made at Birmingham. A promise was made in the early stage of the Bill that we would make an effort in order to put the manufacture of matches on the same footing as the manufacture of tinder lighters.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolutions to be reported to-morrow; Committee to sit again to-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read and postponed.

Whereupon Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House, of the 22nd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Half after Seven o'clock.