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Commons Chamber

Volume 81: debated on Tuesday 18 April 1916

House of Commons

Tuesday, April 18, 1916

Private Business

Edinburgh Corporation Order Confirmation Bill,

Read the third time, and passed.

Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 1) Bill,

Read a second time, and committed.

London County Council (Money) Bill,

"To regulate the expenditure on capital account and lending of money by the London County Council during the financial period from the first day of April, one thousand nine hundred and sixteen, to the thirtieth day of September, one thousand nine hundred and seventeen; and for other purposes," presented, and read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

Aliens (Naturalisation)

Address for Return "showing the names of all Aliens to whom certificates of naturalisation have been issued and whose oaths of allegiance have, during the year ended the 31st day of December, 1915, been registered at the Home Office, giving the country and place of residence of the person naturalised, and including information as to any aliens who have, during the same period, obtained Acts of Naturalisation from the Legislature (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 156, of Session 1914–16)."—[ Mr. Brace. ]

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Imprisonment of Mr. Draycott (Switzerland)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can now state the result of the inquiries made by the Federal Government as to the imprisonment in Switzerland for seventy-two days of Mr. Draycott, who was not brought to trial but was released owing to the absence of evidence against him; whether this gentleman was arrested and imprisoned at the instigation of the German military attaché at Berne; and whether Mr. Draycott has succeeded in his demand for compensation for wrongful imprisonment?

At present only a telegraphic summary from His Majesty's Minister at Berne of the Note addressed to him by the Swiss Government has been received giving the result of the inquiries made by them into the case of Mr. Draycott. According to this report Mr. Draycott's request for the withdrawal of the decree of expulsion made against him has been rejected by the Federal Council. Mr. Draycott has accordingly left Switzerland. At the same time it is admitted by the Federal Council that Mr. Draycott underwent thirty days unmerited detention, and he has been awarded an indemnity of 600 francs. Upon receipt of a full report on the case from His Majesty's Minister at Berne the question of the responsibility of the German military attaché and other matters shall be carefully considered.

British Prisoners of War

asked how soon this House may expect to receive, in the form of a White Paper, the Reports obtained from the American Embassy in Berlin upon the treatment of British prisoners in Germany, which have already been communicated to the Press during the past two months, but have not been divulged in full to the public, which anxiously awaits complete official accounts of the camps in which thousands of their relatives are interned?

The Reports will be laid before Parliament in a White Paper as soon as the pressure of work in the printing department permits. The Reports have already been issued to the Press in extenso.

asked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether he has yet received any Reports from the representatives of the United States Government upon the treatment of British prisoners of war interned in Bulgaria and Turkey; and whether the Ottoman Government now permits neutrals to visit our prisoner camps in the Turkish Empire?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative; the Porte agreed on the 18th of January to the inspection by a neutral of camps in Turkey in which British prisoners of war are interned. On the 11th of April they limited their assent to camps to be named by them. A strong protest has been made against the attitude now adopted by the Porte, which is the more inexcusable in view of the excellent treatment accorded to Turkish prisoners of war in our hands, as is shown by the Reports of United States officials.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he proposes to publish the Report about our prisoners in Bulgaria?

asked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether he has now been furnished with the record of British prisoners repatriated from Austria-Hungary promised on 28th March; and can he inform the House how many still remain interned in the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

I regret that it has not been found possible to obtain the information asked for by my hon. Friend owing to the fact that a number of the British subjects repatriated from Austria-Hungary returned to this country before records were kept by the Home Office, and there is necessarily no record of the British subjects who proceeded from Austria-Hungary to Italy; the Austro-Hungarian Government informed the United States Ambassador at Vienna on the 16th March that ninety-three British subjects were interned in Austria-Hungary. Since we have been notified of arrivals from Austria-Hungary nineteen persons have been repatriated. Others may have remained in Italy or Switzerland either altogether or sufficiently long not to be recorded as coming from Austria-Hungary.

Greek Territory (Allies' Occupation)

asked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether any protest has been made by the Greek Government in connection with the recent occupation of Greek territory by the forces of the Allies; and, if so, can he make any statement on the subject?

Certain protests from the Hellenic Government in regard to the measures which the Allied Governments have been obliged to take on Greek territory or in Greek territorial waters have been received.

The circumstances which have rendered such measures necessary are as follows:

The French and British Governments, as is known, originally decided to dispatch troops to Salonika on the invitation of the then Greek Prime Minister. Shortly afterwards there was a change of Greek Government, accompanied by a change of policy on the part of Greece, but the Allies could not then recede from the undertaking to which they had committed themselves. When Serbian territory was overrun by hostile forces, the Allied Governments selected Corfu as the nearest available place of refuge for such portions of the Serbian Army as could be rescued.

The presence of Allied forces at Salonika and of Serbian forces at Corfu have led to the Allies taking certain naval measures of precaution in Greek islands and waters, designed to provide for the safety both of the forces themselves and of the shipping employed in keeping these forces supplied. The reason for these measures is apparent in view of the action in the Ægean of enemy submarines, whose bases of operation, there is ground to believe, are in Ægean waters. Any steps of this nature which the Allies may take follow as a natural consequence from their decision to send an expedition to the help of the Serbs—a decision which was reached in the first instance at the request of Greece herself.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Prime Minister, M. Venizelos, in the Greek Chamber, has denied that he invited the landing at Salonika under the circumstances? Cannot he say whether that is a breach of our intentions to fight for the rights of small nations?

Russia and Turkey (Constantinople)

asked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to a statement by M. Longuet, of the French Chamber of Deputies, to the effect that the Socialist Parliamentary party had called on its representatives in the Government to urge that the Russian Government should be invited to forego its claim to Constantinople in order to make possible the withdrawal of Turkey from alliance with the Central Powers, and to the further statement that this proposal had been favourably considered by the Foreign Affairs Committee of the French Parliament; and will he give consideration to the subject?

Military Service

Exempted Men Become Combatants

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War why men holding certificates of exemption from combatant service are being attached to Infantry regiments, and why they are being compelled to accept rifles; and if he will take immediate steps to secure that the conditions of such persons' service are strictly observed by the military authorities?

I have made inquiry, and I find that some men were incorrectly sent temporarily to reserve units for accommodation and rations pending their appointment to their Non-Combatant Corps. This has now been rectified. In no case were any of these men equipped with rifles. My hon. Friend may not be aware that a certain number of men who had originally conscientious objections to combatant service have now voluntarily undertaken to fight.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the voluntary agree- ment to fight has been the result of persecution and tyranny of a most abominable character?

No, Sir. That is not according to my information. I much prefer to believe that these men have come to a proper sense of their duty.

Soldiers' Leave

asked the Under-Secretary for War if he is aware that there is dissatisfaction among the men in the New Army in consequence of their not being able to get leave from time to time in accordance with the promise made when they joined; if he is aware that some of the men are getting their second leave before some of the others have received any at all; and if he intends taking any action in the matter?

I have no knowledge of such dissatisfaction as is alleged in the question, nor am I aware of any promise with regard to leave having been given in connection with, or as a condition of, enlistment. I have frequently stated that leave is a privilege which can only be granted as and when the military situation permits.

Whittington Camp, Salop

asked the number, if any, of men called up under the Military Service Act, 1916, who have died at the camp at Whittington, Salop?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for East Edinburgh on the 23rd March. The answer to his question is, one.

Wrexham Recruit (Richard Ivor Parry)

asked the Under-Secretary whether he is aware that Richard Ivor Parry, of Llanaelhairn, Carnarvonshire, has been unable to follow his employment for thirteen months suffering from heart disease, and that, notwithstanding the certificate of his medical adviser to that effect, he has been passed at Wrexham for general service; and whether he will take steps to secure his release and to prevent other unfit men being passed for service by the medical authorities at Wrexham at the risk of the men's lives?

Theological Students

asked whether the Army Council instruction to military representatives, not to oppose exemption from military service of theological students in college studying, or intended for the immediate work of the ministry, applies to all theological students at all stages in their course of study?

The instructions in question refer only to students who are in immediate preparation for the ministry.

Enlistment of Boys Under Age of Eighteen

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War the total number of cases brought to his attention by the hon. Member for Mansfield of boys who have been sent to the front under the age of eighteen, despite the protests of their parents; and whether he will see that all boys who have given incorrect ages, or who have been invited by recruiting sergeants to give false ages, shall not be sent to the front before they attain the age of eighteen?

My hon. Friend has certainly sent me a considerable number of these cases, and had I known that he would at any time call upon me to state authoritatively to the House the precise number I would have kept an exact record. But, as a matter of fact, I have not done this. As regards the latter part of the question, he will, I am sure, bear with me if I say that I have not anything to add to my previous answers on this point. The furnishing of the Registration Card, which is now the rule, has put a stop, I hope and believe, to the occurrence of these cases which my hon. Friend and I unite in disliking.

Why cannot these boys of eighteen be enlisted for service under Lord Derby's scheme? Seeing that boys of seventeen are still being sent to the front, why cannot all boys of eighteen be sent to the front?

I understand that the proposal is such as will make it practically impossible for any boy under eighteen to get up to the standard. Of course, if a boy seems very active it is very difficult for the authorities to make certain what his age is.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the fact that I sent in the names of 150 cases of boys under eighteen in one batch?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he promised me six weeks ago to inquire into a case of this sort, which I brought to his notice, and that I never heard anything further about it?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is aware that Private Thomas Moran, No. 6,521, 3rd Battalion Connaught Rangers, enlisted at Westport, county Mayo, on 27th July, 1915, when he was only seventeen years one week old, without the consent or knowledge of his widowed mother, Catherine Moran, and that Mrs. Moran has made several unsuccessful applications for the discharge of her only son on the ground that he is not of military age; and if he will state whether, if Moran cannot be discharged, he will be withdrawn from militant service and placed at other necessary work until he attains the age of nineteen?

I would take the liberty of referring the hon. Member to the previous answer I gave on this subject to a question put to me by the hon. Member for Blackburn on the 2nd November, 1915.

Blackburn Recruiting Case

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he has yet received a report upon the case of Harold Hargreaves, late of Burnley, and afterwards residing at 20, St. James's Street, Southport, who offered himself for enlistment at Blackburn, on 26th October last, and was then rejected as medically unfit, but has since been compelled to join the Army under the Military Service Act, 1916; and if he will now say whether this man, on receiving a yellow notice requiring him to join for service with the Colours, called at the recruiting office at Southport on Friday, 3rd March, and produced the certificate of rejection which had been given him at Blackburn, but was informed that this could not be accepted, because it was signed only by a non-commissioned officer; whether, on Monday, 6th March, he travelled to Blackburn and called at the recruiting office there to ask that the certificate should be corrected, but was told that this could not be done, as the doctor who rejected him had resigned his post; whether, on Thursday, 9th March, the police called at the shop where he works at 10.45 a.m. and told him that unless he reported himself for military service by 11.30 he would be arrested as a deserter; whether he then went to the barracks as ordered and was passed for immediate service although, in fact, suffering from rheumatic affection of the heart; and whether the War Office propose to take any steps in the matter?

I have now received a report on this case, from which it appears that this man presented himself at the recruiting office at Southport in response to the notice calling him up for service, and produced what purported to be a rejection certificate made out at Blackburn on 26th October, 1915, and signed by a corporal. This certificate was irregular in itself, and there was no record in the office papers at Blackburn that this man had been medically examined. It consequently could not be accepted. Hargreaves was sent for service on 8th March, 1916, and passed as fit by the medical board. The local police were not sent, I am informed, to his place of employment. As regards the medical aspect of the case, the officer commanding the recruiting area reports that the case is one of determined attempt to evade military service, and that Hargreaves' own doctor had stated that no medical man ought to reject him.

Attested Men (Burnley)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the inconvenience and expense that is being caused to the attested men in Burnley and the district through being required to travel to Preston if they wish to be medically examined before being called up under the Derby scheme; whether men who are liable for service under the Military Service Act, 1916, can be medically examined at the Burnley Barracks before their groups are called up; and whether he will see that at least equally good facilities are provided for attested men?

My hon. Friend has called my attention to several points in connection with the furnishing of soldiers for the War, but I do not remember that he has previously mentioned this point. He will, I make no doubt, recognise the impossibility of providing medical boards in each town in the United Kingdom. The medical board for the recruiting area in question is at the depot at Preston. The question of allowing men, who wish to be examined prior to being called up, railway warrants is being considered, but I can give no undertaking as to what the decision will be.

Territorial Force (Imperial Service)

asked whether the substantial consideration held out to men in the Territorial Forces to induce them to sign for foreign service was that they would be sent into the firing line with their own units; whether Army Council Instruction, No. 552, dated 11th March, contemplates sending them into the firing line with their own units; and, if not, whether, in view of the discontent, existing amongst a very large number of men, steps will be taken to transfer to their own units before going into the firing line those men who have been attached elsewhere?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Army Council Instruction, No. 552, of 11th March, orders the attachment of men serving in English provisional battalions—who had undertaken the Imperial service obligation prior to the appointed date—to units in three Territorial Divisions—the 61st, 60th, and 59th Divisions. This was necessary in the interests of the Army.

Workers Discharged

asked how many single men who had been employed in the production of munitions in response to his appeals for labour and who had been satisfactorily doing work of national importance have been discharged in consequence of the agitation of the attested married men?

I have no information as to any man having been discharged by employers in the circumstances referred to by my hon. Friend. I may, however, point out that no man holding a certificate of exemption in respect of employment on munitions work has been called up for military service unless it has been decided by the Ministry of Munitions, after full consideration, that he is more urgently needed in the Army than for munitions work.

Can the hon. Gentleman say how many of these men have been withdrawn from munitions work for military service at a time when he says he requires more men?

I cannot answer that question offhand. A considerable number of men have been released from munitions work, and their places will be taken by women. I could not say how many.

Seeing that the hon. Gentleman said just now that he kenw of no case where a man had been dismissed on the grounds stated, may I ask whether it is not the fact that his Department recently received a letter giving the facts as to the dismissal of a man employed by a firm in Glasgow under such circumstances as those mentioned in the question?

Really, the hon. Gentleman cannot be expected to reply without notice in regard to a particular case of that kind.

Local Tribunals

asked the President of the Local Government Board if his attention has been called to a decision by the Brightlingsea Tribunal granting exemption until July to Arthur Leonard Hibbs, a partner in the firm of E. A. Hibbs and Son, contractors for Army requirements, who entered Hackney College, West Hampstead, as a theological student after the War broke out, but who, during vacations, has been actively engaged in the work of the firm; whether the tribunal was justified in granting exemption on the ground stated, namely, that Mr. Hibbs was a theological student, in view of his having so recently entered the college; whether the tribunal of eight members included his father, his father's partner, his father's late partner, and two cousins; whether the camp commandant, who is billeted on the father, wrote to the Advisory Committee recommending exemption; whether the military representative, who frequently dined with the father, raised no objection; whether the hearing at Brightlingsea was illegal; and what steps will be taken to have this case heard by an impartial tribunal in the district in which this residential college is situated?

I have made inquiries respecting the case, and I will send the hon. Member a copy of the information which I have received, and which differs in certain particulars from that upon which the question appears to have been based.

Single Men Enlisted

asked the President of the Local Government Board during what period the 300,000 single men, referred to in his speech to the deputation of married men to the Prime Minister, of the 12th instant, have been obtained; what number of them have been obtained from starred or certified industries; what number had voluntarily attested; and what number had been enlisted under the Military Service Act, 1916?

I am obliged to the right hon. Baronet for putting the question as there appears to have been some misapprehension in this matter. In my remarks to the deputation I did not intend to refer to the number of men who had been obtained from starred or certified industries. I stated what I thought was an approximate figure of the total number of single men who had been obtained for the Army during the last few months.

Conscientious Objectors

asked whether Henry Sara, a conscientious objector, is now a prisoner at Parkhurst gaol, Isle of Wight; whether he was informed by the prison authorities or by the military authorities who brought him there that on the expiry of his sentence he might have his hands handcuffed above his head and his feet fastened to the floor; whether such treatment is in any case sanctioned by the Home Office; and, if not, whether Henry Sara will be informed that the threat held over him will not be carried into effect?

I have seen some correspondence which states that this man is at the Military Detention Barracks at Parkhurst, but I have no official information to that effect. I think it highly unlikely that any such statement as that contained in the second part of the question was even made, and I would advise my hon. Friend to be backward in accepting any such suggestion. Mr. Sara is a British citizen, and has had the opportunity of placing his case before the tribunals provided by law.

asked the President of the Local Government Board if he will have inquiries made into the case of Mr. D. S. Wood, of No. 4, Commercial Road, Peckham, S.E., whose appeal for exemption on conscientious grounds was dismissed by the London Appeal Tribunal on 7th April, with the result that the applicant is now liable for full combatant service, and in particular if he will say whether this tribunal refused to read a letter written by the Rev. Thomas Phillips, minister of Bloomsbury Chapel, in support of the applicant's claim, and also refused to hear a witness who had come to give evidence on his behalf; whether he is aware that the applicant has devoted his leisure for many years past to philanthropic and charitable work; that he is accepted for missionary service in Africa, and that he is known to have held strong views for a long time past as to the incompatibility of war with Christianity; and whether the Local Government Board will take any steps in the matter?

I have inquired into this case. The alleged letter from the Rev. Thomas Phillips was a print of a communication from the reverend gentleman to the public Press, and in no way referring individually to the appellant. The tribunal did not refuse to hear any witness for the appellant. The whole circumstances of the case were carefully and courteously considered by the tribunal before coming to their decision.

asked the President of the Local Government Board if he will have inquiries made into the case of Mr. J. B. Thomas, of 125, Seymour Street, Harringay, N., heard before the Middlesex Appeal Tribunal on 11th April; whether he is aware that this man had applied to the Tottenham Local Tribunal on 23rd March for exemption on conscientious grounds and that the local tribunal, after hearing his evidence, granted him absolute exemption; whether he is aware that the military representative appealed against their decision on the ground that the man's conscientious objection was consequent upon his Socialistic and political views, and that the Middlesex Appeal Tribunal thereupon reversed the decision of the local tribunal, with the result that this applicant is now liable for full combatant service; whether the military representative produced any evidence whatever to show that the local tribunal had been misled or that the applicant's claim was not a genuine one; and, if not, will the Local Government Board take any steps in this matter?

I am informed that this case was fully considered by the Appeal Tribunal, and I have no authority to revise their decision.

asked the President of the Local Government Board if his attention has been called to the case of Mr. Eric Chappelow, formerly in the Education Department of the London County Council, who was recently fined and handed over to the military under the Military Service Act, 1916, and if he will say whether this man had originally been granted absolute exemption by the Mortlake Local Tribunal on conscientious grounds; whether this decision was reversed by the Surrey Appeal Tribunal; whether the applicant offered to undertake work of national importance if not under military discipline, but was not allowed to do so; whether, at the hearing before the magistrates, he asked for an adjournment which was also refused; and whether, in view of these circumstances and of the man's high character and antecedents, the Local Government Board will take any steps in the matter?

I have inquired of the Surrey Appeal Tribunal concerning this case, and am informed that the tribunal were satisfied that Mr. Chappelow had a conscientious objection to combatant service and after carefully considering the facts were of opinion that an exemption from combatant service was the proper relief to be afforded.

Is not this the tribunal the chairman of which has repeatedly stated that he cannot give total exemption even where the possession of conscientious objections is proved to the satisfaction of the tribunal?

Is it not the fact that the local tribunal granted this applicant absolute exemption, but the military representative appealed against their decision on the ground that it was not possible under the Act to grant absolute exemption, and the Surrey Appeal Tribunal reversed the decision of the local tribunal expressly on that ground?

I believe that that is exactly contrary to the fact. I am informed that the military representative appealed on totally different grounds.

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether not more than 400 of those seeking to escape military service for conscientious reasons have been sent to join the Non-Combatant Corps; and, if so, can he say what has become of the remainder of those who have been granted by the tribunals exemption from combatant service only?

At the present time no more than 400 men have been allotted to the Non-Combatant Corps. It seems impossible to give at present an exact analysis of what has happened to the remainder, but many have appealed from the local tribunal to the Appeal Tribunal against the decision that they should be allotted for non-combatant service. In many cases the Appeal Tribunal have reversed the decision of the local tribunal and have decided that the claim was not a sincere one and have allotted the appellant to combatant duties. Another reason why not more than 400 men have yet joined the Non-Combatant Corps is that men presenting themselves at the recruiting office with their form marked by the local tribunal as being allotted to non-combatant duties have stated that they have now changed their minds and wish to do the right thing. They ask accordingly to be allotted to a Line regiment, and their wishes have been carried out. Others, of course, are being given work of national importance—for example, serving in the Friends' ambulance unit or sanitary service.

Has the right hon. Gentleman seen a photograph which appeared in the "Daily Sketch." last Friday, proving that some of these conscientious objectors are being subjected to gross persecution?

I have not seen the photograph, and I am very loth to believe anything of the kind. If the hon. Gentleman will bring a case to my notice I will inquire into it.

Is not the explanation of the fact that only 400 men have, so far, been put into the Non-Combatant Corps, that a very large majority of them have been illegally attached to Infantry combatant regiments?

I have never heard of any such proceeding until the hon. Member mentioned it.

I beg to give notice that, on the Adjournment, I will call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to a case of gross persecution, of which I can give full particulars.

Non-Combatant Corps

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he will inform the House of the reasons that have induced the Government to weaken the Forces of the Crown by enrolling men in a special corps which will not be allowed to bear weapons of offence, and in setting up a Committee whose terms of reference are to advise tribunals of safe occupations of a national character for those unwilling to bear arms?

The Military Service Act provides that men who apply for exemption on the ground of a conscientious objection to the undertaking of combatant service may be awarded exemption from combatant service only or exemption conditional on the applicant being engaged in work which, in the opinion of the tribunal dealing with the case, is work of national importance. The Non-Combatant Corps has been devised for the purpose of meeting the case of men who are granted certificates of the former kind, and the Committee to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers has been appointed to assist in dealing with cases of the latter class.

Air Services

Enemy Raids

asked the Under-Secretary for War if he can give an assurance to the country, especially the coast towns, that every effort is being made to defend them from Zeppelin raids?

In answer to two questions put to me by my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh, I made a statement in the sense desired in reference to Scotland. What applies to Scotland applies to the whole of the United Kingdom as far as it may be affected.

asked the Under-Secretary for War if he can offer any encouragement to municipalities that are willing to organise their own citizens in self-defence against raids, when such are organised by the municipal authority?

Municipalities can, I think, best assist by taking steps to preserve order and by ensuring the observation of any precautionary measures ordered by the military authorities. My hon. Friend will see that the actual work of suppressing air raids is one that can only be satisfactorily undertaken by His Majesty's Forces.

asked whether, seeing that the civil authorities of towns in the county of Nottingham have taken steps to ensure the lights are turned out so soon as notice has been given of a Zeppelin raid, why, when this step has been taken and persons fined who show any light, the railway companies serving these towns are permitted to have brilliant lights burning on the stations?

The arrangements in force provide for railway station lights being obscured in sufficient time in the event of an air raid, but if my hon. Friend will supply particulars as regards time and place of the cases he has in mind I will have the facts investigated. I may add that signal lights are considered to be invisible at a comparatively low altitude.

Railway Signal Lights

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that much of the advantage of the darkening of towns as a protection against air raids is nullified by the refusal of certain railway companies to extinguish railway signals after they have been duly warned of the approach of a Zeppelin; whether he is aware that the lights from railway signals at large railway junctions make a considerable illumination that must act as a guide to airships; whether his Department will make representations to the railway companies to extinguish railway signal lights after they have been officially warned of the necessity of doing the same; and, if that is not possible owing to the need of maintaining the lights for signal purposes, whether he will make arrangements with the railway companies to so guard the lamps of signals that they are not visible from an airship?

The experience gained by our aviators during the recent air raids clearly shows that railway signals are not visible to aircraft flying at a greater height than 3,000 feet unless several signals are collected together on one gantry. In such cases, where it has not already been done, arrangements will be made, in localities open to the attack of aircraft, to shade the lights so as to render them useless as guides to enemy airships.

Questions

War Medals

asked the Under-Secretary for War whether, in considering the issue of a medal or medals for the present War before its termination, all the factors that render the practice in other wars in which this country has been engaged inapplicable as a precedent have been considered; and whether he will undertake to have all the circumstances reconsidered with a view to making a reasoned statement shortly after the Easter Recess?

The general practice is, I think, not to issue a commemorative medal before the conclusion of the campaign for which it is granted, but I am aware that there have been exceptions. I cannot give any undertaking to make a statement of the land suggested shortly after the Easter Recess. I do not underrate the importance of this matter, but there are many considerations which have to be taken into account before an issue of this kind can be made. For instance, the hon. Member has doubtless not failed to reflect that it would be most undesirable for one portion of the Allied Armies to be granted a medal before the other Allies took a similar course. I cannot help thinking that the issue of a commemorative medal at the present time might be misconstrued into a belief that the War was over, or nearly over. The prevalence of such an impression would react unfavourably in many respects on the concentration of effort which is necessary to win the War.

Do not the precedents of what has taken place in previous campaigns in effect show that they are entirely inapplicable to the present great War? Would not the conclusion to be arrived at from the issue of a medal be exactly the opposite to what has been stated, namely, that we anticipate that the War will go on so long that it is necessary to give some recognition to the men before the War terminates?

If the hon. Member will look at the precedents he will see that in the case of the Crimean campaign the medal was not issued until some important engagement had been won by the British Forces. In the case of the Mutiny it had been practically put down before any medals were issued. In the case of the South African War, the war was nearly over.

Will the Government consider the desirability of having twenty-three medals issued for foresight and vigour for members of the Cabinet?

Suvla Bay Operations

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether any Report has been received from Sir Frederick Stopford on the subject of the operations under his command at Suvla Bay; will he state when it was received; and will he cause it to be published, seeing that the Reports of Sir Ian Hamilton and General Monro have been published?

Sir Ian Hamilton and Sir C. Monro were Commanders-in-Chief and Sir F. Stopford a subordinate commander. It is only customary to publish the dispatches of a Commander-in-Chief or senior officer in command.

Does the right hon. Gentleman remember the case of Sir Charles Warren and Sir Redvers Buller, in which the report was published, and why should not the report of Sir Frederick Stopford be published as well as that of Sir Ian Hamilton?

I cannot recall at the moment whether the dispatches which the hon. Member mentions were, in fact, published before the conclusion of the war. I think that it was after the conclusion of the war, but perhaps the hon. Gentleman would put down another question.

In view of the Prime Minister's views regarding the advisability of an inquiry at the time of the South Afrcan War, will the right hon. Gentleman not direct an inquiry in this case?

Naval and Military Services

Pensions and Grants

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether Bridget Walsh, of Westport, county Mayo, was officially informed on 28th April, 1915, that her son Private Francis Walsh, No. 10351, 2nd Battalion Connaught Rangers, died on 10th April, 1915, from wounds received in action; if her separation allowance as dependent on deceased was stopped on 4th May, 1915; whether he is aware that this woman, now a widow, has since been destitute; and why she has received no reply from the War Office to her application for a pension or allowance?

Through oversight this case was not brought to notice until long after the soldier's death, and it was found difficult to establish her dependency upon him. This has now been done, and an issue including arrears will be made.

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office (1) whether he can now say if the widows and children of men who have died from disease developed in or aggravated by service with the Colours are eligible for pensions on the same basis of four-fifths as a man discharged on account of disease so developed or aggravated in the Forces; and (2) when the new Royal Warrant embodying the recent changes in pensions will be published?

I should explain that I have been in communication with my right hon. Friends at the Treasury and Admiralty in the hope of arranging a method of meeting the claims of widows and children which will allow more consideration to be given to the circumstances of individual cases than the method suggested in the question. The Royal Warrant will, I trust, appear at an early date.

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the corporation of the city of Glasgow has unanimously resolved to petition His Majesty's Government to increase the allowances granted to dependants of sailors to the same level as those granted to dependants of soldiers, and to review the scale of allowances all round in view of the increase in prices since the scale was last fixed; whether he is aware that all shades of political opinion are represented in the corporation of Glasgow; whether the petition has been received; and whether any action will be taken?

The petition to which my hon. Friend refers has been received. A reasoned reply is being sent to it. I will take care that my hon. Friend gets a copy. Meantime, I must ask him to remember that Navy separation allowances to wives, children and, dependants represent an entirely new grant instituted directly in connection with the present War. The rates to wives and children and other dependants represent a clear increase over the payments made to the sailor and his family before the War, and they are on as liberal a scale as is considered to be warranted in view of all the circumstances. In making comparison with the allowances paid to soldiers' families, it is impossible to leave out of account such considerations as the pay and prospects of advancement open to the men, and the higher allotment which they are able to make as compared with soldiers. All these considerations were set out fully in a Parliamentary Paper, Command No. 7619, which will go with the reply to the Glasgow Corporation and therefore be furnished to my hon. Friend.

Soldiers Mentally Affected

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he is aware that when some soldiers mentally affected are transferred to lunatic asylums in some cases it is impossible for the wife or the soldier's dependants to receive any pay during the time that the soldier is in the asylum; and if he can see his way clear to make different arrangements, so that the wife of the soldier or the dependants can draw the money in the usual way?

So long as the soldier continues in the Service, the issue of separation allowance to his wife or dependant continues unaffected by his transfer to an asylum. Perhaps the hon. Member will communicate to me particulars of any case he may have in mind.

Regimental Institutes (Board of Control)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Accrington Division has been appointed a member of the Board of Control of Regimental Institutes; and can he give the names of all the members of the new Board?

Yes, Sir, the right hon. Gentleman has been appointed. As soon as the final constitution of the Board is settled an announcement will be made in the Press.

Is not this Gentleman a single man of military age, drawing £400 a year?

Volunteer Training Corps

asked when the Regulations dealing with Volunteer Training Corps will be issued?

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what "immediately" means, because we have been waiting for this so very long?

Wounded Soldiers (New Zealanders)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if orders have been issued that New Zealanders who may be wounded on the Western front must be sent to Egypt; and, in view of the fact that there is ample room in the hospitals in and around London, and that there are many objections—heat, flies, dysentery, infected soil—to sending wounded to Egypt, he will reconsider the matter?

I appreciate the point stated in my hon. Friend's question. The whole matter is under consideration.

Mesopotamia Campaign

asked what arrangements have been made for hutting the British and Indian troops on the Lower Tigris during the coming hot weather?

I am glad to be able to assure my hon. Friend that accommodation in huts at various points is being pushed on as rapidly as circumstances admit.

Civilian Prisoners (Exchange of Medically Unfit)

asked how many British civilian prisoners have been passed by German doctors as medically unfit and therefore qualified for repatriation; and what has been the result of the fresh steps announced by him to expedite the exchange of prisoners of this class?

The reply to the first part of the question is in the negative. We have so far received no reply from the German Government to the proposals which we have made to them in the direction indicated in the second part of the question.

Has there been any difficulty with the American Government in having no answer to the first part of the question?

Internment in Swiss Sanatoria

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he can now state or circulate the categories of diseases which will qualify British prisoners of war suffering therefrom to be interned in Swiss sanatoria; whether these categories will be identical with those agreed upon in February last between France and Germany; and when the panels of neutral doctors will begin their visitations of prisoner camps in Germany and England, with a view to ascertaining how many prisoners from both countries are qualified by the nature of their infirmities to take advantage of the hospitality offered by the Swiss Government?

A definite agreement as to the diseases which will qualify British prisoners of war for internment in Switzerland has not yet been reached with the German Government. The desire is that the category of disabilities shall be the same as that which is now in force between France and Germany. It is hoped that Swiss medical men will be prepared to commence tours of inspection in British and German camps as soon as an agreement has been reached with Germany.

Did not the right hon. Gentleman state the other day in this House that an agreement had been reached with Germany?

Yes; an agreement on principles has been reached with Germany, but not as to the actual diseases which should be admitted.

Has it been arranged that panels of neutral doctors should visit the prisoner camps in England and Germany?

I do not know what my hon. Friend is alluding to. I am alluding to the internment of British and German prisoners in Switzerland.

I am referring to my hon. Friend's question: "When the panels of neutral doctors will begin their visitations of prisoner camps in Germany and England?" Have any such visits been arranged?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say why France was able to get attention to prisoners in. Switzerland nearly a year ago, while we are only just making a beginning?

It is true that Franc was more successful in concluding this matter. I cannot say why it was so.

Did we make an application at the same time as France or has it only just been done?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I drew attention to this subject three months ago?

Sentence of Death by Courtmartial

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the repugnance of soldiers to carrying out sentence of death by court-martial when passed upon a youth, he will take steps to secure that this penalty shall not be inflicted upon any soldier under the age of twenty-one for an offence peculiar to the military code?

The hon. Gentleman is seeking to force an open door. No sentence of death awarded in the field is carried out without the concurrence of the Commander-in-Chief, who always give the most careful consideration to the prisoner's age, amongst other matters.

Military Staff, Deptford

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War why, taking the need of economy into consideration, it is necessary to employ a military embarkation staff officer at Deptford; whether the senior supply staff officer of the War Office stationed there is of field rank; and whether the latter officer is competent to deal with the military side of the shipping work and could be relied on to link up the supply staff with the naval transport staff?

I can only assure the hon. Member that at the port mentioned and at other ports it has been found by experience that a military embarkation staff officer is necessary for the purposes mentioned. The officer commanding at the supplies reserve depot is a lieutenant-colonel. My attention has been directed to the fact that the hon. Member's question of to-day, like that he put on the 10th April, gives information which should not, I think, appear in Parliamentary questions.

Is the real reason that the officer of one Department refuses to receive the report of the officer of another Department?

Contracts (Percentage Payment)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office how many contracts are in existence in which the terms are that the contractor is to be paid the cost of production plus a percentage on that cost; and what is the average percentage agreed to be paid on these contracts?

So far as can be traced, ten contracts on the basis referred to are still in existence; 9 per cent. is the average agreed to be paid.

Will the hon. Gentleman see in future, in connection with such contracts, that in no case 9 per cent. will be paid on the total cost?

I do not think anybody can form a judgment whether or not 9 per cent. is justified without knowing the details in each particular case. You may have these small contracts on which it would be quite proper to pay a high percentage, or you may have contracts involving large sums of money, in which the percentage is low, but if you lump them altogether and asked what is the rate of percentage on the whole, I am afraid that you do not arrive at a very accurate idea of the merits of the case.

Will the War Office, as far as possible, avoid contracts made in this way, on which the payment is by percentage?

As far as possible we do so. Personally, I do not like the method of payment of remuneration by percentage. I would rather do it on some fixed sum, as low as possible.

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office, in the case of contracts in which the terms are that the contractor is paid the cost of production plus a percentage on that cost, how many such contracts have been entered into and completed since the outbreak of war, what amount of money they represent, and what is the average percentage paid to the contractor?

So far as can be traced, thirty-nine contracts on the basis of cost plus a percentage have been entered into and completed since the outbreak of the War. The estimated value of the contracts is about £210,000, and the average percentage paid is about 2¾ per cent. The contracts referred to in this and in the previous answer are, of course, exclusive of the agency agreements with certain well-known engineering firms for the erection of hutted camps.

British Prisoners (Bulgaria and Turkey)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he can now state at what rate the Bulgarian and Ottoman Governments are feeding and lodging British prisoners of war?

I regret that I have not yet received the information for which I have asked.

Will the hon. Gentleman ask the Foreign Office to get an answer to this question through the American Government? It could be obtained quite easily.

Naval Transport Officer (Steamship "Arragon")

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office what was the official use to which the Royal Mail steamer "Arragon" was put for many months last year when lying off Mudros, in the Ægean; and what department of the War Office was responsible for the manner in which that ship was used?

The "Arragon" was used as the headquarters and offices of the Principal Naval Transport Officer, the Superintending Transport Officer, and the Inspector-General of Communications and their respective staffs. Repeated representations were made by the Admiralty and the War Office as to the cost of this arrangement, and the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief expressed the view that the work should be transferred to the shore. The Vice-Admiral Commanding, however, considered it preferable for the proper conduct of the naval part of the operation that a depot ship should be used for the purpose, and, as the exigencies of the situation made it necessary for the naval and military staffs to be in the closest possible touch, the arrangement was continued. But I do not consider that any responsibility rests with the War Office.

Could not the closest possible touch have been held with the shore at Mudros, which would have been a less expensive way?

Yes, undoubtedly, if the naval operations could have been conducted equally efficiently from the shore, but the Vice-Admiral was distinctly of opinion that they could not.

May I ask whether any representations were made to the Admiralty with regard to the use of this ship after I raised the question publicly in this House?

My hon. Friend should address his question to my right hon. Friend beside me representing the Admiralty.

Budget Proposals

Match Tax

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that the tax on matches in Germany is equivalent to 2s. per 10,000 matches; that, if he is going to maintain the present suggested tax both on imported and home-made matches, it will mean doubling the price to the consumer; and if he intends taking any action in the matter?

So far as I can ascertain, my hon. Friend rather underestimates the German tax on matches. I think that the general feeling of the House, as expressed in the Debate on the 12th April, was that the tax as rearranged is as satisfactory as any new tax can be, and I do not contemplate any alteration of it.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the price of matches has jumped up 100 per cent., and that another 25 per cent. this week has already been threatened?

Motor-Car Tax

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can see his way to allow clergymen, who often on short notice have to attend the sick and dying, in the discharge of their duties, the same concessions or deductions from Motor-car and Motor Spirit Taxes as are allowed to medical doctors and veterinary surgeons?

For the time being I can only repeat that I am considering all questions relevant to the proposed increase of Motor-car Licence Duty.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider the question of doctors and of veterinary surgeons? In the one case they attend patients and in the other they look after cattle; and will the right hon. Gentleman also consider the case of clergymen, who receive no benefit from attending the sick?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that his proposals for increasing the duties upon motor cars bear hardly upon the owners of cheap motor cars; and whether he will consider the advisability of placing the tax on the capital value of the car rather than upon its horse-power?

Income Tax

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if Income Tax at 5s. in the £ must be deducted from dividends paid to French shareholders in English companies; and, as the greater number of these shareholders have not an income on which Income Tax at 5s. would be payable, what machinery he proposes to establish to enable these shareholders to obtain repayment of the tax which may be wrongfully levied on them?

I would refer the hon. Member to the provisions of Section 71 (1) of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, under which no relief depending on the total income of an individual from all sources can, except in the special cases mentioned in that Section, be claimed by a person not resident in the United Kingdom.

Unless they come under the special circumstances mentioned in that Act.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the increased responsibility thrown on assessors and collectors of Income Tax, by reason of the recent alterations in the Income Tax, he will consider the propriety of introducing a change in the law whereby appointments to those offices should no longer be annual appointments, but should be of a more permanent character?

In the case of the majority of assessors and collectors their Income Tax work is only part-time and is carried on by them in conjunction with other business or employment unconnected with the revenue. I see no reason for suggesting any alteration in the method of their appointment.

Entertainments Duty

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has received protests from Ireland against the proposed Amusement Tax; and whether he will consider the advisability of withdrawing the tax where the admission does not exceed 4d. on sports promoted by the Gaelic Athletic Association, in view of the effect that the tax will have on the Gaelic pastimes of Ireland?

If the association can satisfy the Commissioners of Customs and Excise that they come within the exemption contained in Sub-clause 1 (5) ( d ) of the Finance (New Duties) Bill as amended on Report, no duty will be leviable. The association should apply to the Commissioners.

May I ask the Government whether this is the real reason for putting the Amendment in the Bill on the Report stage?

Questions

Old Age Pensions

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to a resolution of the Newcastle-under-Lyme borough pension committee that, in view of the hardship which many old age pensioners are now suffering in consequence of the increased cost of living, the Government be urged to give favourable consideration to an increase of the rate of pension; and whether, in view of the reasonable character of the resolution and the feeling in the country, the Government will give effect at an early date to the proposal?

asked the Prime Minister whether he has received the resolution passed by the York and District Trades and Labour Council stating that, on account of the high cost of living, the old age pensioners are suffering great hardships and urging that the pensions be increased; and whether he can now state what action the Government propose to take with regard to this matter?

Yes, Sir, I have received these resolutions. With regard to the second part of the question, I must refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave yesterday on this subject to the hon. Member for West Leeds.

Duke of Cumberland and Duke of Albany

asked the Prime Minister if any public moneys of the United Kingdom are paid to the Duke of Cumberland or the Duke of Albany; and, if so, will he take steps to save such moneys or apply them to a better purpose?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative and the second does not arise.

New Writs

asked the Prime Minister whether, seeing that, since the formation of the Coalition Government, Members have applied for the office of the Chiltern Hundreds and that new writs have been moved forthwith, thereby preventing the electors from having the necessary time to select an independent candidate, he will see that the old practice that prevailed prior to the formation of the Coalition Government is reverted to of giving the House at least twenty-four hours' notice when a new writ is to be moved?

I understand that no difference has been made in the procedure of moving writs. No notice was ever given to the House.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that though his answer is technically correct, in point of practice the House was fully aware when a writ was going to be moved in every constituency, and was therefore protected against an election being jumped without due notice?

Will the right hon. Gentleman see that notice is given to the secretaries or Whips of the various groups in the House?

Near East Campaign

asked the Prime Minister what proportion of the total number of men considered to be required for the Army has been allotted to the campaign in the Near East?

House of Commons (Secret Sittings)

asked the Prime Minister if he has considered the disabilities under which the elected representatives of the people labour, in their desire to be of service to the Government in the present crisis, by reason of the necessary information being withheld from them which would materially assist them in determining the efficiency or otherwise of the present Administration under his leadership; and whether, in view of the fact that it cannot be in the national interest for him to publicly give such information as would assist Members to form a reliable judgment, he will consider the advantage that would accrue to the Government, the Empire, and our Allies, of holding a secret sitting of the House, as is done in France and Holland, in order that he may make a general statement for the purpose of correcting any unfounded anxiety or unnecessary criticism of the Government arising from an ignorance on the part of Members of the general facts of the situation?

Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate the difficulty under which Members of this House labour at the present time in doing their duty towards those whom they represent?

Coal-Pit Casualties (County of Durham)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make inquiries into the casualties, fatal and otherwise, arising from falls of roof and sides in the coal pits in the county of Durham during the years 1913–14–15, and first quarter of this year?

This question receives the constant attention of the inspectors of mines, and I am not aware of any need for a special inquiry at the present time. The inspector for the division reports that he is satisfied that there has been general improvement in recent years in methods of timbering, increasing attention being paid to proper timbering at the face, and the accident figures for the period referred to in the question show a substantial decrease since 1913. The total number of fatal and non-fatal accidents from falls in 1913 was 290; in 1915, 213; and in the first quarter of 1916, 49.

Interned Aliens

asked whether Peter Petroff, a Russian Jew, is still interned at Holloway; whether he is allowed free use of a separate room apart from the German prisoners there interned, whose attitude on the War is intensely repugnant to him; whether any payment has been or will be demanded from him for any special service or seclusion; and whether this man, who is a skilled scientific instrument mechanic, will be allowed to pursue his employment and thus cease to be a burden on the community?

Petroff is interned in St. Mary's Institute, Holloway. He has a separate room apart from German prisoners, for which he pays 5s. a week. This payment covers services in the way of cleaning, cooking, etc., which are performed by other interned persons, and the money is paid into a common fund for their benefit. I have no information that he is a skilled scientific instrument mechanic, and he has not asked to be employed on manual work.

Munitions

Shell Work (Inspecting and Gauging)

asked the Minister of Munitions how many women and girls are employed in Great Britain in the branch of shell work known as inspecting and gauging; and what length of preliminary training was necessary to fit these women and girls to do this work?

The number of women and girls employed upon the inspection and gauging of shells and components amounts to several thousands, but I am not in a position to give the exact number, as they are spread over hundreds of firms throughout the country. This work is of a kind which can well be undertaken by women, and the policy of the Department is to extend the use of female labour as much as possible. I am communicating with all Government establishments and munition works with a view to the substitution of women for men where men are employed being effected as rapidly as possible. The period of preliminary training lasts on an everage about four to six weeks.

Messrs. Vickers' Works, Erith

asked the Minister of Munitions whether, when a deputation representing the female workers of Messrs. Vickers, at Erith, waited on representatives of the firm, they were told that neither the workers nor the firm had any option, as the change was in obedience to a Government order?

I am informed by Messrs. Vickers that no such statement was made to the deputation in question.

asked the Minister of Munitions why it has been found expedient to submit to Messrs. Vickers' demand for a twelve-hour shift for women and young girls when Messrs. Armstrong, at Newcastle, are quite satisfied with the eight-hour shift?

I would refer the hon. Member to previous replies given in the House on the subject of the change in the shift system at Messrs. Vickers' works at Erith. The suggestion contained in the question that the three-shift system is in operation throughout Messrs. Armstrong's works is not correct, the system generally in force there being the two-shift system.

Women and Young Persons (Hours of Work)

asked the Minister of Munitions, whether he will state the number of hours of actual work of women and young persons per day and per week permitted now in munition works where the twelve-hour shift system prevails; and whether there is adequate provision wherever such system prevails whereby the women and young persons engaged may obtain suitable food and refreshment with facility?

The maximum hours of work permitted for women and young persons on the two-shift system have hitherto been ten and a-half per day and sixty-three per week. The actual hours worked have varied in particular cases, and in a very large number of cases have fallen considerably short of this maximum. Under the new general order now under consideration by the Ministry and the Home Office, it is contemplated that the maximum allowed should be sixty hours per week. As regards the last part of the question, in every case in which night work is sanctioned for women or young persons, the firm is required, as a condition of the Order, to provide proper messing facilities to the satisfaction of the factory inspector. Further, the canteens committee, wherever a need is shown to exist, takes active steps to deal with the matter.

Are we to understand that the Government consider it right that women and young people should work sixty hours per week, week in week out?

As the hon. Member is aware, there is a certain maximum laid down in the Home Office Orders for this class of work.

asked the Minister of Munitions whether the number of hours of work of women or young persons now engaged in the manufacture of munitions or in controlled establishments exceed the number of hours per week permitted under the Factory Acts?

The number of hours of work of women or young persons engaged in the manufacture of munitions, as of all women or young persons employed in factories and workshops, is governed by the Factory Acts and Orders made thereunder. The ordinary limit of hours in the Factory Acts is sixty, but this limit may be extended by general or special Orders of exemption, and my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has found it necessary, in consultation with the other Departments concerned, to make such Orders in certain cases.

Health of Munition Workers' Committee

asked the Minister of Munitions whether, in view of the reports of the Health of Munition Workers' Committee, to the effect that excessive overtime working is not only detrimental to economic and effective production, but also is the direct cause of an increase of sickness, debility, and accidents, he will request the members of the Committee to produce as soon as possible a clear and concise treatise dealing with the reports for popular distribution; and will he also bear in mind the importance of this subject in relation to the financial position of approved societies under the National Health Insurance Acts?

It is not thought necessary to circulate a summary of the memoranda issued by the Health of Munition Workers' Committee, as the reports themselves have already been widely circulated to the employers of labour in munition factories. The answer to the second part of the question is in the affirmative.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the Committee sitting on this aspect of the case have a very limited reference, and does he not consider that those terms ought to be enlarged so as to provide that the subject of the question is within the purview of that Committee?

Appeals for Workers

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he can state to what extent his demand for 80,000 skilled and 200,000 unskilled workers has been met?

The figures quoted by the hon. Member referred to the estimated prospective requirements of all munition factories in August last. Since that date the effect given to the policy of dilution—that is, the performance by women or unskilled men of work hitherto performed by skilled men—has enabled the demands for skilled men as stated then to be largely met. The demands for skilled men which could not be filled by the employment of women or unskilled men have been partly satisfied by the transfer of war munition volunteers front private work, the release of skilled men from the Colours, the introduction of labour from the Dominions and from certain foreign countries, and by training semi-skilled persons or persons skilled in similar trades to those in which vacancies existed. There is still, however, a considerable demand for skilled men, especially in shipyards, which can only be met by the further progress of the methods referred to above, and particularly by further dilution. The demand for unskilled workers has been largely reduced, mainly by the introduction of women.

Has the hon. Gentleman now got all the labour he requires for munition work, or is the lack of labour preventing the supply of munitions that was considered necessary?

I cannot answer the question in that form. I have given a faithful answer to the question on the Paper. The requirements of munition work vary from month to month, and we are constantly having fresh demands made upon us.

Is the shortage of skilled and unskilled men in the shipyards being made up?

I do not know that there is any great shortage of unskilled men. The deficiency in shipyards is in skilled men, and we are doing our best to meet it by the process of dilution.

Questions

Life-Saving Appliances

asked the President of the Board of Trade how many of the Boddy life-saving jackets and waistcoats are supplied to the shipowners; if he is aware that the master of the steamship "Katrina" (which was the first boat to arrive on the scene of the "Lusitania" disaster) states that the first fifty-three persons picked out of the water were wearing these life-saving jackets; if he is aware that the chief steward of the steamship "Westborough," which rendered assistance to the survivors of the "Lusitania," states that all the women that were picked up wore the Boddy life-saving belts; if he is aware that a number of people who were saved on the "Falaba" were also wearing the Boddy life-saving waistcoats; if he is aware that when a demonstration was given in the Thames opposite the Terrace of the House of Commons it was demonstrated that it was quite impossible for anyone to sink who wore one of these Boddy life-saving jackets; and if he is prepared to make it compulsory for all shipping companies to carry a sufficient number of the Boddy life-saving appliances for the majority of the passengers?

I am not in a position to give the information asked for in this question, and I cannot undertake to require that life-jackets made by any particular manufacturer shall be provided on British ships, but the Board of Trade propose to issue shortly new requirements with regard to life-jackets.

Restriction of Imports

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he intends to extend the prohibition of import of motor cars to motor vehicles intended for commercial use?

Sugar Supplies (Sale of Tea)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the practice of insisting that a customer who requires sugar shall, as a condition to obtaining it, buy tea largely prevails in London and the country; that the Chatham and District Co-operative Society, Limited, Magpie Hall Road, Chatham, insist on this condition; and will he say what steps he proposes to take to put an end to this new form of commercial usury?

I am informed that the practice referred to was adopted by a large number of retailers but has been in the vast majority of cases already abandoned as the result of action taken by the Sugar Commission. The Commission is already in communication with the society referred to upon the point, and will be glad to be informed of any other cases where the practice is still being resorted to.

Railway Congestion

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware of the fact that the railway companies are practically acknowledging that they cannot convey to and from Manchester the traffic required to conduct the city's business; that goods are left for weeks together in Manchester warehouses uncollected by the companies; that merchants are forced to employ road wagons, furniture vans, and motors to transport their goods to Liverpool, Bradford, Birmingham, and even to London; and, if in view of this disarrangement of traffic, he will prohibit the holding of the Royal Agricultural Show in Manchester this year?

asked the President of the Board of Trade if, in consideration of the losses and inconvenience caused to the trading community in the Manchester area through the growing congestion of goods traffic on the railways, and in view of the fact that the holding of the Royal Agricultural Show in Manchester this year will produce increased pressure on the rolling stock, he will make representations to the railway companies that the ordinary goods and passenger traffic must not be interfered with or curtailed for the purposes of the show?

The Ministry of Munitions, in consultation with the Board of Trade, gave very careful consideration to the effects both on munition production and transport and on the general traffic of the railways of the holding of the Royal Agricultural Show in Manchester this year. As a result, I understand that the Ministry of Munitions imposed severe restrictions on the exhibition of machinery, which will have the effect of largely reducing that part of the show. In the circumstances, I understand that the railway companies do not anticipate difficulty in dealing with the traffic for the show.

If I address to my right hon. Friend letters from the railway companies acknowledging that they cannot deal with the traffic from Manchester, will he be satisfied of their misbehaviour?

Passenger Ships (Danger Zones)

asked whether ocean-going passenger ships are still permitted to travel through danger zones with ports and scuttles open?

No, Sir. Special attention has, as the hon. Gentleman is aware, been drawn to the importance of this and other matters and if a casualty were caused, or contributed to, by neglect of this or any other obvious and necessary precaution, the officer responsible would be liable to have his certificate dealt with.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to answer that part of the question which asks whether ocean-going ships are permitted so to travel, and whether, as a matter of fact, all the ports and scuttles of the "Persia" were not open at the time she was torpedoed?

My hon. Friend must give me notice of any question relating to the "Persia." I have answered the other part of the question.

Merchant Service (Lives Lost)

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will give an approximate estimate of the number of non-combatants who have lost their lives on ships in the merchant service which have been torpedoed or have struck a mine?

The number of non-combatants reported to the Board of Trade as having lost their lives on British merchant vessels and fishing vessels by enemy action between the 4th August, 1914, and 15th April, 1916, is 3,117, including 1,754 seamen, 188 fishermen, and 1,175 passengers.

Loss of Steamship "Persia."

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether on 12th March last the late hairdresser on board the steamship "Persia" addressed a letter to the solicitor to the Board alleging that no boats were ready to launch in case of accident, that they were not in proper repair nor properly equipped and provided; and whether any acknowledgment of or reply to this letter has been made?

The witness referred to made a statement on 7th February and wrote a letter on 12th March. The letter was a protest against the abandonment of the inquiry and was not replied to. There was a large body of evidence to show that the boats were in good order and properly equipped, and that they were all swung out (except four carried on deck) and ready for lowering at the time the ship was struck.

May I ask why, in view of the grave allegations contained in this letter of a somewhat important officer, the Board of Trade have not answered the letter, or at all events acknowledged it?

No, Sir, allegations were not contained in the letter; the letter was a protest against the abandonment of the inquiry for which I gave a sufficient reason.

Will the right hon. Gentleman read the letter again? If he does he will find that he has been entirely misinformed. I have seen a copy of it.

Even if this information were contained in the letter I cannot regard the hairdresser as an important officer of the vessel. In the second place, the Board of Trade must be guided by the main body of evidence, and the main body of evidence was quite clear on the point.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the statements contained in the letter were confirmed by passengers on the liner?

Irish Eggs (Glasgow Prosecutions)

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been drawn to two recent prosecutions in Glasgow in which it was shown that Russian and Canadian eggs were sold as Irish eggs; and can he state what steps he proposes to take to prevent the continuance of these fraudulent practices?

My attention has not been specially drawn to the cases mentioned. As regards the latter part of the question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave him on Tuesday last.

Tuberculosis Dispensaries (Westminster)

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether negotiations for the establishment of tuberculosis dispensaries at Charing Cross Hospital and St. George's Hospital for the Borough of Westminster were carried on with representatives of those hospitals and the borough council but have now been broken off; and if he will state what the cost to the ratepayers of these two hospital dispensaries would have been and what is the estimate for the establishment and maintenance of a borough tuberculosis dispensary?

I am afraid I cannot do more than refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer which I gave him on Thursday last. I shall be happy to send him the particulars I have as to cost.

Tabard Street Area

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been drawn to the statements made by the Southwark coroner on Tuesday, 11th April, with regard to certain property in the condemned area of Tabard Street, and also to the evidence given by Dr. French that a boy of nine years of age lived with his mother and three other children in a single room; whether he is aware that the Tabard Street area has been declared unfit for human habitation and condemned; whether he is aware that the London County Council have again decided to allow people to live in the condemned area; and whether he intends taking any action in the matter?

I have received letters from the coroner for Southwark in regard to certain houses in the Tabard Street area. The carrying out of the Tabard Street improvement scheme, involving as it does very heavy capital expenditure, has been retarded in consequence of the War, but I have recently made an Order under which it will be competent to the London County Council to proceed forthwith with the demolition of a large number of the worst houses in the area. I am in communication with the London County Council on the subject.

Standing Orders

Resolution reported from the Select Committee:

"That, in the case of the Great Central and Sheffield and District Railways Bill [ Lords ], the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with:—That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill."

Resolution agreed to.

Orders of the Day

Military Service

Prime Minister's Statement Postponed

The following Notice of Motion stood upon the Order Paper in the name of the Prime Minister, "That this House, at its rising To-morrow, do adjourn until Tuesday, 2nd May."

I am not going to move the Motion which stands in my name on the Order Paper, but perhaps the House will allow me to make a very brief statement. As the House knows, it had been my intention to make a statement to-day in regard to recruiting and the proposals of the Government in that connection. I regret that there are still outstanding some points without which my statement would be incomplete and inadequate. I hope to-morrow to be in a position to deal with the whole matter. The Government have promised that the House shall have an opportunity, if necessary, on the Motion of my right hon. and learned Friend opposite (Sir E. Carson) of discussing the question before the Adjournment for Easter. I think, therefore, that it would be unfair to the House to take the Motion for Adjournment until Tuesday, 2nd May, which stands in my name. It would, in effect, compel the House to adjourn to-morrow evening. I shall not move that Motion to-day. It may, in the circumstances, be necessary for us to ask the House to sit on Thursday.

Arising out of that statement, may I ask the Prime Minister if arrangements have been made to extend the leave of those officers who have especially come over from France and Flanders in order to be present at the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, and any subsequent Debate? I understand their leave terminates on Thursday night, and it may not be possible for them to get back if the House sits on Thursday.

Can the Prime Minister say how many private soldiers have been given leave to come over?

That is entirely for the General Officer Commanding-in-chief; with that I have nothing to do.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if it is the intention to take the discussion to-morrow—if discussion be necessary—upon his statement, or to move the Adjournment to-morrow, and to take the discussion on the statement on Thursday? The right hon. Gentleman will recollect that we were to have the opportunity of examining, as well as we could, his statement before we decided on moving the Motion.

Yes, I think that is most reasonable. I am entirely in the hands of the House. But I think the right hon. and learned Gentleman will see that the most convenient course would be that after my statement to-morrow we should move the Adjournment, and then take the discussion next day.

When will the right hon. Gentleman make his promised statement on the Air Service?

Finance (New Duties) Bill

Order for Third Reading read.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Bill be now read a third time," put, and agreed to.

Bill read the third time, and passed.

On a point of Order. As it was quite impossible for any Members to hear what you said, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, might I ask if you have already put the Question as to the Third Reading of the Finance (New Duties) Bill?

May I ask whether, as no Member of the House could possibly hear what you were saying, the Question cannot be put again?

I paused a long time to enable any hon. Member to attract my attention. If hon. Members were not attending it is not my fault.

On a point of Order. I desire to ask you, Sir, as some Members were shouting at the top of their voices, and it was impossible to know what you were putting from the Chair, or to hear a word of what was going on in spite of our efforts, is it not unfair that we should be deprived of our legitimate rights on the Third Reading of the Bill?

Ways and Means [17th April].— Report

Resolution reported,

Table Waters (Customs)

1. "That there shall, on and after the first day of May, nineteen hundred and sixteen, be charged on all table waters (including aerated waters and other beverages) imported into Great Britain or Ireland the following duties of Customs (namely):—

On table waters which contain as the result of the ordinary process of manufacture, or are prepared in the ordinary process of manufacture with, sugar or other sweetening material, or which are fermented beverages, a duty at the rate of fourpence per gallon; and

On any other table waters a duty at the rate of eightpence per gallon;

sand so in proportion for any less quantity."

I desire to draw the attention of the House specially to the most unequal incidence of taxation involved in this tax. The tax to be charged on the gallonage of these table waters is to be 4d. in some cases and 8d. in others. What I desire to submit to the Chancellor of the Exchequer is that 8d. a gallon on the richer beverages is only a tax of 6 per cent. on the value of the gallon, whereas on the cheaper aerated waters the tax in certain cases, some being sold at 8d. per gallon, is no less than 50 per cent. It is a gross violation of the equal incidence of taxation that those drinks which are consumed largely by the working classes are to have a tax levied upon them of no less than 50 per cent. as against 6 per cent. in the case of the special drinks which are reserved mostly for the tables of the rich. It is, indeed, a Super-tax charged upon the drinks of the poor as compared with the drinks of the rich. Now that the putting on of stamps has been abandoned, an ad valorem duty on poundage instead of on gallonage would be quite as easy to collect and be much fairer and more equitable. For instance, a tax of 2d. in the shilling, or whatever fraction of a shilling, would bring probably more revenue, and would be, comparatively speaking, equal in its incidence. All that I want from the Financial Secretary to the Treasury is an assurance that between now and the introduction of the next Budget this matter will be carefully taken into consideration, and I hope that when the next Budget is introduced there will be a provision that, instead of charging so much per gallon, involving as it does this most unequal incidence of taxation, there will be substituted on a graduated scale an ad valorem duty, such as I have indicated, so that this tax may be levied with some regard to equal incidence of taxation, which is a principle the right hon. Gentleman has himself always strongly advocated.

My hon. Friend will observe that this is merely an Import Duty, and that therefore it is quite impossible to contemplate the imposition of an Import Duty which would not be comparable with the Excise Duty already imposed by Parliament and included in the Bill just read a third time. I would, therefore, suggest to my hon. Friend that he has addressed himself to the wrong subject.

Resolution agreed to.

Resolutions reported,

Cider and Perry (Customs)

2. "That there shall on and after the first day of May, nineteen hundred and sixteen, be charged on cider and perry imported into Great Britain or Ireland a duty of Customs at the rate of fourpence per gallon, and so in proportion for any less quantity."

Licences for Sale of Table Waters, Etc., and Cider

3. "That there shall be charged on a licence to be taken out annually (in such cases as may be required) by persons who sell table waters (including aerated waters and other beverages), and by persons who sell cider or perry, an Excise Duty of ten shillings."

Tinder Boxes, Etc. (Customs)

4. "There shall be charged on all tinder boxes, tinder lighters, and other mechanical and portable contrivances for producing a flame imported into Great Britain or Ireland, a duty of Customs of five shillings."

Tinder Boxes (Excise)

5. "There shall be charged on tinder boxes, tinder lighters, and other mechanical and portable contrivances for producing a flame manufactured in Great Britain or Ireland, an Excise Duty of five shillings."

Resolutions agreed to.

Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolutions, and that the Chairman of Ways and Means, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Montagu do prepare and bring it in.

Ordered, —That it be an instruction to the Gentlemen appointed to prepare and bring in the Bill that they do make provision therein pursuant to the Resolutions reported from the Chairman of Ways and Means on the 5th day and agreed to by the House on the 17th day of this instant April, and to the Resolution reported from the Chairman of Ways and Means on the 17th day of this instant April, and then agreed to by the House.

FINANCE BILL "to grant certain duties of Customs and Inland Revenue (including Excise), to alter other duties, and to amend the law relating to Customs and Inland Revenue, including Excise and the National Debt, and to make further provision in connection with finance," presented, and read the first time; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed.—[Bill 26.]

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Whereupon Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 22nd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

"Stop the War" Demonstration

Trafalgar Square Meeting Prohibited

4.0 P.M.

I wish to call attention to a matter about which I have given private notice to the Home Secretary. I do not know whether many hon. Members are aware of the advertisements which have appeared in the public Press with regard to a meeting to take place next Sunday in Trafalgar Square. I hold in my hand a copy of the advertisement which appeared in the "Labour Leader" of 18th April, and it says: It will have the effect, not only in this country, but throughout the Allied countries, and possibly in the Dominions, of creating the impression that a Government which allowed such a meeting to be held was weakening in its determination to carry on the War, and that it was allowing this seditious propaganda to go unscotched.

There is another reason I wish to urge upon the right hon. Gentleman. I do think, from information which has reached me, in fact I have no doubt whatever, that if this meeting is held there will be a very serious breach of the peace, or if not a serious breach of the peace it can only be prevented by precautions on the part of the Government on a very large and a very forcible scale. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman or the Government at large contemplate the possibility at such a juncture as the present of bringing large bodies of British troops to Trafalgar Square to protect the speakers who will be put up on the plinth of the statue there to carry out the principles of the resolution I have read, and to urge its adoption. I must say that we have some strange anomalies in this country in our pursuit of free speech and so forth, but it will certainly be a very remarkable demonstration if these speakers have to be protected against loyal men, and probably against troops who have come thousands of miles, and who find themselves in the capital of this Empire on a Sunday afternoon confronted by a meeting of these disloyal people. On all those grounds I urge very strongly upon the right hon. Gentleman to give an assurance to the House that this meeting will not be allowed to be held.

Before the hon. Member opposite gave notice that he proposed to raise this question in the House I had received a report from the Commissioner of the Police in the Metropolis who told me that he had reason to apprehend very grave disturbances if this meeting were held in Trafalgar Square on Sunday next, disturbances so great that a very large force of police would be required to cope with them, and even then he could not guarantee that the persons holding the meeting would receive efficient protection. In those circumstances I have decided that on that ground the meeting must be prohibited and prevented from being held. I should like to make it plain to the House that the reason why I propose to take this action is not that the meeting is intended to be held in opposition to the policy of the Government, supported as it is by Parliament. The purposes of the meeting, I may be permitted to remark, are, of course, in my view profoundly unpatriotic and most mischievous. Although the views which would be expressed at that meeting are held by an insignificant minority in this country—

This will not be so fully understood in our Dominions and in the countries of our Allies nor in the countries of our enemies, who could wish for nothing better than that a meeting of that character should be held in the Metropolis of this country. Yet, in spite of all this, I should not be prepared to lay down the doctrine that the Executive was entitled to suppress public meetings held in opposition to its policy even in time of war. I can imagine a war into which some incompetent Ministry might blunder which might not have the confidence of the nation.

This is the most incompetent Administration that has ever been in office.

We cannot all attain the standard of competence of the hon. Baronet. One can imagine a Ministry blundering into a war which was not approved by the nation, and circumstances, in which the best service any patriotic man could render to his country would be to express the view that a different policy should be adopted in the administration of national affairs. In such circumstances it would be a great evil if men holding those views—and I am assuming circumstances in which those views were rightly held—were prevented by the force of law from expressing those views by public meetings or in the Press. I should be sorry indeed if any action taken in this year 1916 could be held in the future to be a precedent for the suppression even in time of war of the right of free speech. Even if disorder is anticipated, I think that the Executive should be reluctant except in extreme cases to take action, for it would be highly improper if it were possible for any comparatively small group of combative persons, by giving notice that they intended to wreck this meeting or that, to secure the intervention of the Executive and the stoppage of free speech. The circumstances here are most exceptional. Meetings in Trafalgar Square are held in order that public opinion may demonstrate itself. If a meeting is held there which represents the view of only, as I believe, a small minority of the population of London, we may be quite sure that the representatives of the majority of the population would desire to demonstrate conclusively that the views entertained by the people of London are not those advocated by the holders of the meeting. In all probability vast crowds would collect on Sunday next, and in any event the meeting would soon have to be stopped on account of the disorders that would take place. Therefore the Government, on the advice of the Commissioner, have come to the conclusion that it is better, in the interests of the peace and order of the Metropolis, that the meeting should be prohibited in advance.

I am advised that the powers vested in the Executive under the common law would be adequate for this purpose, but in order to prevent the possibility of doubt His Majesty will be advised to make a Regulation under the Defence of the Realm Act to the effect that where there is reason to believe that grave disorder will occur in consequence of a meeting being held in a public place, imposing an undue demand on the police or upon the military, the proper authority may prohibit the meeting. I should like, in conclusion, to say that it is incorrect to assert, as has appeared in the Press, that the Commissioner of Police has given sanction for the holding of this meeting on Sunday; no such sanction has been given by the Commissioner of Police, and under the Regulations no sanction is required. The Regulations provide that any person who is the first to give notice that he proposes to hold a meeting for a legal object on a given day has a right to the use of the Square, and in this instance all that has passed between the promoters of the meeting and the police is that they gave notice that they wished to use the Square on Sunday next, and the Commissioner sent the usual form acknowledging the receipt of their notice, and a statement that the usual arrangements would be made, also forwarding a copy of the Regulations affecting such meetings. I thought it advisable to make this full statement to the House because the point which is involved in the prohibiting of a meeting in Trafalgar Square is one which, in my view, is of no small importance.

Military Service

Conscientious Objectors

I do not wish to make any comment on the announcement which we have just heard. My object is to call attention to one or two cases which are occurring now which, I think, will be typical of very many more cases which are going to occur with regard to the administration of the Military Service Act in the matter of conscientious objectors. The conscientious objector belongs to a class which this House intended to protect, and we did not intend that men should be persecuted for the opinions they hold, or that men should be forced by threats or by bullying to take part in a military service to which they were conscientiously opposed. I will come at once to a case which has been brought to my notice, and if the facts are correctly stated it seems to me there can be no doubt that gross injustice has been done. It is the case of Mr. Eric Chappelow, who was a clerk to the Education Committee of the London County Council, a man of good education, good position, of a most sensitive nature, a literary man, and a poet, whose work is thought very highly of by many people. He is a man who has always been conscientiously opposed to war, and he has always held opinions which I do not share, but which, I think, ought to be respected. He believes it is wrong to take part in any way in warfare or military service. He belongs, it may be, to a very small minority whom, however, it is the duty of this House to protect. He placed his objections before the Mortlake Tribunal, which, after a hearing of three-quarters of an hour, granted him total exemption. The military representative appealed against that decision on the ground that it was ultra vires. The appeal came before the Surrey Appeal Tribunal, which, I am informed, changed the decision to one of exemption from combatant service. The man was in consequence ordered to go into the Army, although exempted from combatant service, and this was entirely contrary to his conscientious views. He refused to comply with the order, and was arrested and handed over to the military authorities. What occurred afterwards I will state in his own words, contained in extracts from a letter written on 13th April:

"After this I was marched to the Army store room. I refused to undress, and also to take my clothes and kit downstairs. I refused to put on uniform in spite of sundry threats that it would be put on for me. The fellows in the guardroom I found very decent, and so too was the sergeant when not in an official capacity. Eventually I was put into khaki by force, in spite of some resistance. About a quarter of an hour after I took off the uniform. They put me in a cell, and a few minutes after the sergeant came to me and asked me if I would dress, and then on my refusal to put on khaki they took me as I was, strapped a blanket round me, strapped my arms to my side, and marched me off with two others to the orderly room. We had to wait outside for some time and I was, of course, the object of much scoffing, threats and insolence. A Red Cross nurse took photographs of me, and so too did a sergeant major—only he was insulting."

I may remark that these photographs of this man in a blanket, with his arms strapped to his side, were sent to the Press, presumably by the sergeant-major, and appeared in the "Daily Sketch" of last Friday. I will give my right hon. Friend copies of the paper which I have in my possession, although not with me at the moment I think that anyone who looks at those photographs will admit that this man was being morally tortured. He continues in his letter:

"I came before the Commanding Officer—a Lieutenant-Colonel—and when asked what I had to say, I stated that I was a conscientious objector and must act up to my convictions, I was remanded for a district court-martial. I feel if ever I am faced with two years, or one year, or even six months of this, never seeing my friends, I shall go mad."

Yes, that is exactly what the hon. Member wants. He wants to make this man mad.

No! In my opinion he is mad already. But is the hon. Member in order in addressing himself to me?

I was about to ask the hon. and gallant Member to refrain from making interruptions.

Then the man continues:

"I do not know how I can bear it. One feels one will never see his kith and kin again, if after six months you are to go back to the Army again and then strike, and have all these things over again."

That is one of a good many cases which are being brought to my notice. I have other cases in mind of a similar nature which I shall be very glad to give my right hon. Friend. There is a case in which a man complains of being bullied and coaxed alternately and asked, does he not think it would be better for him not to stand out? He is also told that he will be sent to France at once and will be shot in the trenches, and no one will know anything about it. He adds:

"As a matter of fact what I fear is I cannot bear it."

The hon. Member opposite appears to approve such treatment if one is to judge from his interruptions.

I did not interrupt this time. It was an hon. Member opposite who spoke.

I hope hon. Members will refrain from these interruptions. I cannot catch everything that goes on.

I apologise if I have been disorderly, but I understood someone to say that this man was funking, and that appeared to be a sufficient reason, in the opinion of some Members, for subjecting him to persecution. My view is that these men who are conscientiously opposed to warfare in every shape are entitled to, and the House intended that they should have, protection, and it is the bounden duty of the House to see that men who are exempted from combatant service are not forced by threats, bullying, or other means to take a part in warfare which is contrary to their principles and contrary to everything in which they believe. It may be said that it is a very small thing to ask them to put on khaki, and it is inquired, "Why should they object to wearing khaki uniform?" May I remind the House that many hundreds of years ago there was a very small body of Christians who were asked to throw a few grains of incense into the fire before the statue of an Emperor, and they were told that it was a very small thing they were asked to do, and that it did not mean anything. In those days a great many men and women were content to lose their lives rather than do what they believed to be wrong—and they did believe that the statue to the Emperor was a symbol born of the devil. To-day the men who are asked to put on khaki refuse to do so because they believe it to be a symbol of militarism which they detest. I think that their views ought to be respected. They were intended to be respected by Parliament, and you will be bringing a bad name upon this country, for no practical purpose whatever, if you allow this persecution to go on. If the country were in danger, if it were in such danger that it was necessary to get every last man, there might be something to be said, but can anyone allege that taking of a few hundreds or thousands of men who are conscientious objectors, is going to make all the difference in regard to the War?

Are we going to gain any practical results from the policy which is now being carried out? I say the only result you are going to gain is that this country, which for 300 years has been the temple of freedom, is going to lose its fair fame. You will be known to posterity as a Government which has persecuted these men, whose names will be remembered probably long after the names of Members of this House have been forgotten. In persecuting men like this, you are doing the worst possible thing for the good name of this country. You are doing more harm than you can be aware of, and I hope my right hon. Friend will impress on the Government, and upon his colleagues, that it is their bounden duty to find a way out by which the intentions of this House with regard to the conscientious objector shall be faithfully carried out. We are bound to protect these men. They are not now being protected. The tribunals are insulting them. They refuse to listen to their appeals. They refuse to listen to their evidence, and they are sent to barracks under the excuse that they are not being made liable for combatant service. That is a hollow excuse. They find themselves driven into the ranks, they are treated like other soldiers, and they are compelled to act contrary to their most cherished convictions. And then, when they object, when they resist, they are treated with contumely and insolence. I hope my right hon. Friend will tell us that some better policy than that which is now being carried out will be adopted. I believe we are entitled to ask that with regard to these conscientious objectors—who are determined to carry their resistance to the end—we shall have something better than a policy of persecution and oppression such as was announced by the right hon. Gentleman in his answer to-day, when fee said he understood the men were being persuaded by the military authorities to give up their conscientious objections. I do think we are entitled to ask, considering the evidence brought before the Government, that we shall have a fair inquiry into these men's cases, and until this fair inquiry has been held, these sentences of hard labour for holding what are conscientious opinions, and this per- secution for conscience' sake, shall be put an end to. Only thus can we find a reasonable way out of the difficulty.

I wish to add my appeal to that of my hon. Friend, to the right hon. Gentleman representing the Government. I know that to speak on behalf of this cause is unpopular, but I believe that an appeal to justice has never been made in vain either in this House or in the country, and what we are asking for is simple justice. When this Act was passed it was the intention of Parliament, and no one can doubt it, that those whose conscientious convictions were sincere in their opposition to military service should have their consciences respected, and provision was made in the Act with that purpose. The situation is an extremely difficult one. I admit the right hon. Gentleman is struggling with great difficulties. I believe he is doing his best sympathetically to meet the demands which have been made upon him. I do not wish to charge those entrusted with the administration of the Act with having in any way wilfully abused its provisions. The position they have had to deal with has been an extremely difficult one, and in many cases the tribunals have only been able after they have been at work for some time to become fully acquainted with all the provisions of the Act, and with their powers under it; indeed, statements which have been made by the chairmen of tribunals at their earlier sittings have had later on to be corrected. In the meantime a great number of cases have been dealt with by the tribunals. In some cases it has been admitted that they would have been dealt with in a different way if the information which they had at their disposal later had been at their disposal earlier. I do not say that it would have altered the whole situation, but in a great number of cases men who have all along asked to be allowed to do work of real value to the nation, leaving, if necessary, their own work, but work which would not be contrary to their conscience and which would not be part of the military organisation, have been refused the only opportunity which the Act allows them to serve their country and at the same time to preserve their consciences from violation.

I would especially appeal to the right hon. Gentleman in the next few days to take some step to meet cases like this. There are a great many who have already been dealt with by the tribunal and who are in his hands, some of them waiting to be arrested, some of them already arrested, and some of them in barracks. They are not adding to the strength of the Army because they are unwilling to undertake any form of military service. They are an embarrassment to the Army, and there are cases where the local military authorities recognise it and want to be rid of them. They do not want to spend their time in punishing men who might be doing, and who are asking for the opportunity of doing, and who are willing to do some useful work which the administration of the law has denied them. I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman especially to take those cases into consideration, and to find some way by which they may be given opportunities under civil authorities of doing useful work of national importance, which shall not violate their conscience. I know that when that has been done the whole difficulty will not have been solved—there will still remain difficult cases—cases of men who must still continue to suffer for their convictions. No machinery can entirely get rid of the difficulties that are inherent in the Act, but it is in the interests of the whole country that in so far as is possible the Act shall be so administered that the least possible injustice is done. We have men of high ability and of unquestioned character whose conscientious conviction has already been recognised by the tribunal but who are now suffering for their conscience and who will go on suffering. Surely it is desirable that we should remove not only from the minds of these men a grave sense of injustice, but from the country a source of constant irritation. It is not only these men who are suffering, but also their families and friends. Very many who do not share their views feel that an injustice has been done. Soldiers themselves have spoken about it, feeling that it is not fair. A wounded officer sent home from the front told me that he was ashamed to think that such things should happen in this country. It is not good for the country that indignation should be aroused when the injustice can be remedied by the administration of the Act. I appeal with confidence to the right hon. Gentleman to do his utmost to see that some way of relief shall be found for these men.

I welcome the intervention of my hon. Friend who has just sat down (Mr. E. Harvey), because I know him to be seized of the difficulties of these cases. He knows also a certain number of the steps which have been taken—some of them, I am afraid, without success—in order to meet them. I, of course, recognise at once, and am quite ready to admit, that these cases are exceedingly difficult. I am not, therefore, very hopeful that one will be able to deal with them in a manner which will commend itself altogether to my hon. Friends who have spoken. Of course they take, if I may say so, rather strong conscientious views, but I think the majority of the House will say that really we have not time to stop and inquire into all these things; we have got to try and win the War. That is how the matter presents itself to most people. I do not say that one view is right and the other wrong. I recognise that Parliament in its wisdom has said that these cases should be met as far as possible, but I think my hon. Friends ought to give the Government credit for having done their best. Let me take the case of Mr. Chappelow, raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Mr. Morrell). Mr. Chappelow, I believe, was a Civil servant. He went before the tribunal and the tribunal exempted him from combatant service.

That was so. The Mortlake Tribunal gave him absolute exemption, and the Surrey Appeal Tribunal reversed that decision in so far as they awarded non-combatant service. Again, the average man in the street says, "If a man objects to warfare, what more can you do than offer him non-combatant service?" Is not that a very fair thing? I am bound to say that if that does not go the whole way it goes seven-eighths of it.

The Act of Parliament says that the tribunal may in its discretion award the man either absolute exemption or temporary exemption or partial exemption from combatant service only. It is entirely within the discretion of the tribunal; and I want to point out to the House how impossible it is for me, and how improper it would be for any Minister, to interfere with the decisions of the tribunals. I think that will be accepted by everyone—at least, I hope it will. It has never been the practice for any executive authority to interfere with judicial decisions of any sort or kind. Of course, it may be said—and it has been said, I think, by my hon Friend—that these tribunals are really not treating these cases fairly. I am very reluctant to believe that. I have inquired and I know; in fact, my hon. Friend asked a question to-day and received a reply from my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board that this case was very fairly considered. It occupied over half an hour, and the Appeal Tribunal came to a decision. I really must ask the House what more could have been done up to that stage? It is true one tribunal overrides the decision of the other—wrongly, as my hon. Friend thinks—but who are we to judge? It is really for the Appeal Tribunal to say whether the first tribunal was right or not. Now I come to the further proceedings, which, according to my right hon. Friend, constitute persecution. I cannot say now, without having looked into the case, what did or did not occur, but while my hon. Friend was speaking one of my right hon. Friends told me that he had seen the photograph in the newspaper and the man's face was wreathed in smiles. I have not had the advantage of seeing the production, and therefore cannot say, but I shall make it my duty to inquire. Perhaps, if my hon. Friend has got it there, he will hand it round.

This letter was written immediately afterwards. It does not look as if the man found it a very mirthful incident.

I quite agree. The man seems in very bad case, and he admits that he does not know what to do. My hon. Friend asks, "What good will it do to the Army to have a few hundreds or thousands of such men in the ranks? That is not the point. Unfortunately in this country there is a certain number of reluctant persons who will not come forward in their country's hour of need, and if you make it easy for persons of that kind to evade their duty, what is going to be the result? The Army is going to be deprived of a great many. That must be the only result. I do not, of course, palliate persecution, but I appeal to my hon. Friends whether it is not right and proper for conscientious objectors and all classes of His Majesty's subjects to undertake some form of sacrifice for their country? I am glad to see my right hon. Friend opposite (Mr. J. W. Wilson) in his place. I am sure that he and my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds (Mr. E. Harvey) will welcome that statement and will be willing, on behalf of those whom, they know to be conscientious objectors, to respond that they are for the large part willing to undertake some sacrifice or other. That, of course, does not make it desirable or proper that they should undertake cruel hardships which are wrongly inflicted upon them; but to expect ordinary men, who look with great suspicion upon anything in the nature of a refusal to do one's duty to his country in its time of trial, to be hypersensitive as to conscience I really think is asking almost too much. You cannot expect an ordinary soldier who is anxious to get every man to come and do his duty to be very tender-hearted towards this class of case.

I do not think that anyone suggests that they should be let off altogether, but we do suggest that it is wrong to place these men, who have a conscientious objection to all war, under military authority and subject them to insults.

I have really nothing more to say upon that point except that it is the tribunal to whom my hon. Friend ought to address himself.

I can do nothing. I am really powerless to remit decisions of the tribunals, and it would be very improper if I had any such power. I did suggest that the tribunal in deciding whether a man should undertake non-combatant service should be guided in its deliberations by a Committee. That Committee was set up by the Board of Trade, and my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds (Mr. E. Harvey) is one of the members of it. I am afraid that there has not been recourse to that Committee as largely as one would have hoped. There, again; I do not see how you could do it. I do not think it is reasonable to suggest that one ought to have done it. Another point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley was that because a certain number of men who had been awarded non-combatant service had not gone into the Non-Combatant Corps but had joined the Line, they had been bullied by the military authorities into doing it. That is not at all my information. It is rather because of the fact that the men had reviewed the situation and thought they were going to do beter if they took the whole thing and not only part of it. A certain number of them have done that, but I do not know how mony. Everyone admits that it is extremely difficult to trace the various moods through which people go in encouraging or discouraging their consciences. It is impossible to trace the whole of the ambit through which a conscience moves; it is an exceedingly difficult operation. Whether these men have been moved by their consciences to overcome their previous consciences or not, I am unable to decide. It seems to me as if they had entered into a contest with their previous conscience and had triumphed over it.

The right hon. Gentleman has not dealt with one point, which is this: Will he see that the conscientious objectors who refuse to obey military orders will be tried for that offence by proper Courts and punished under the law, and will not be handed over to the military to be bullied and dealt with in that way?

In so far as it is a military offence, it must be dealt with by the military authorities. There are other cases under this Act of Parliament, quite apart from the conscientious objectors. For instance, there is the case of the man who claims to be not ordinarily resident in Great Britain. That case will be tried by a Civil Court. The hon. Member must not ask me to say that a military offence shall be tried by a Civil Court.

Could they not be tried by a Court and not be broken down by brutality?

I am not going to condone brutality in any form. My hon. Friend the Member for West Leeds (Mr. Edmund Harvey) asked me if I would not take these cases into consideration. I need hardly tell him that I have been considering very little else for a very long time—perhaps it is not quite true to say nothing else, but I have given them a great amount of consideration. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and my colleagues know how many consultations and conferences we have held upon this matter. I am not prepared at the moment to announce any reversal of policy. I think the tribunals will recognise, what Parliament has already recognised, that genuine cases of conscientious objection must be respected and that methods must be found for allocating to conscientious objectors the appropriate work which they can properly undertake. I do not think I can say anything further.

The right hon. Gentleman said it is impossible for him to deal at present with the men who are already in the Army, and who are in the position that they have got past the tribunals. The Army already deals with men who are wanted for munition works and liberates them for civilian employment. Although in the Army they are liberated from military duties in order to do what is thought to be more suitable for their skill and more to the interest of the nation. Would it not be possible, when the Army authorities are satisfied that the conscientious objector is sincere, it may be when they are satisfied after a sufficient interval, that such a case should be remitted to do work, say, in the department of woods and forests or some work of national importance. If necessary the conditions might be made severe, but the men would be under civilian authority, and the work would be directed to an end of which their consciences could approve. I throw that out as a suggestion to my right hon. Friend.

In answer to that suggestion I can only say that it may be possible for the Minister of Munitions to make an application for a definite person. Such an application would, of course, and always does, receive consideration.

I hoped during the first few sentences of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman that he was going to give us some satisfaction, but I confess that at the conclusion of his speech things remained very much as they did before this Debate started. I am perfectly sure that the right hon. Gentleman has not realised the seriousness of the position, and does not know what is going on. If time permitted, I could put before the right hon. Gentleman not one but a score of cases quite as bad as, and some of them very much worse, than the case of Mr. Chappelow which was cited by my hon. Friend (Mr. Morrell). I protest in the strongest way possible against the statement of the Under-Secretary for War, first made at Question Time to-day, and now repeated in his speech, that the few men who have surrendered and who have joined the Army have done so because of any change in their opinions. Nothing could be further from the truth. If I showed the right hon. Gentleman some of the letters written by these men, I am sure he would not offer us such an idea. These men have written most heart-breaking letters to their parents, and have said that it was only because of the way in which their lives had been made intolerable and unbearable that they had at last agreed to surrender. I have here a letter, nine pages long, which was only written on Sunday last, from a number of conscientious objectors. It is a very full statement of what has happened, and is happening to them at present. I mention it because it has a bearing upon the question of the way in which these men are being pressed to accept full military service. The writers, after describing interviews they have had with the officers, say:

"At the close of which we were very sardonically interrogated as to whether we were aware of the duties which would be assigned to us. On stating our ignorance on the matter, we were individually informed that we should be employed in the most risky work there was, namely, the digging of trenches and the erection of barbed wire entanglements over exposed places in front of the mines. After that most impressive picture, and an assurance of meeting with certain death, we were each asked if we wished to still further trouble about our consciences and whether we would not care to avail ourselves of the comparative immunity of ordinary service."

That is only an illustration of the kind of pressure brought to bear upon these men. It is no wonder that a few of them —it is only a few of them—have given way. Referring to the concluding part of the right hon. Gentleman's statement as to the possibility of doing something in this matter, I wish to point out that the Home Secretary was responsible for the incorporation of an Amendment in the Military Service Bill by which the tribunals were empowered to give an alternative service of a civil character. Advantage has hardly been taken at all by the tribunals of that provision in the Act. Something could be done by the greater utilisation of these men in a perfectly legal manner. There is a Clause in the Act, which is amplified in the Regulations, by which a certificate which has been given by a tribunal may be reviewed either upon the application of the holder of the certificate or upon the ap- plication of the military authorities. I would put this point with great emphasis: What is to prevent the military authority asking that the tribunal shall review the certificate, and that they shall change the certificate to one for work of a national character? I quite agree that that would not deal with every case, but speaking with full knowledge of these men, I believe it would settle 99 per cent. of the cases. It is not, as the right hon. Gentleman said just now, that these men in a time of grave national stress and crisis are not anxious to do something. I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that they can serve their country if they are doing work of a national character and importance other than military work.

Then I am afraid the right hon. Gentleman's observations are capable of misconstruction. I certainly understood him to imply that. These men would be doing more useful work in a civil capacity than they are likely to do in the Army. From the point of view of the Army itself, it is not at all desirable that these men should be retained in the Army. Since Friday last, and at this very moment I suppose—certainly this morning—a court-martial has been going on in Hounslow Barracks. Seven men are there being tried by court-martial. A number of officers are engaged in that work, counsel are being employed, and it must be costing the country hundreds of pounds. The same thing is going on in Whittington Barracks, Litchfield, and in Carlisle. I would like to make some exception to the general charge I made just now of the way in which these men have been treated. While most of the letters I have received speak in the harshest terms of the way in which the men are treated by non-commissioned officers, most of them speak very well of the higher officers, the commanding officers, and so on. Especially is that the case in regard to the colonel in charge at Carlisle. Something very curious has happened there. The colonel told the men he did not know what to do with them, and that he would telegraph to the War Office. I suppose he did so, and that as a result they have been released from the custody of the military and handed over to the civil authorities, and were to be tried this morning in a Civil Court for what offence I do not know. That is a further illustration of the utter chaos into which this matter has got. The military do not appear to know where they are, and the civil authorities do not appear to know where they are. I therefore join, with all the emphasis at my command, in pressing upon the War Office the seriousness of this question and in urging them to let us have an inquiry into the whole matter.

I always listen to the Under-Secretary of State for War with sympathy. I have listened to him this afternoon with a certain amount of pity, if he will accept it from me. I felt very sorry for him, because I thought he had a very difficult case to answer, and really he did not know what he had to say. He began by telling us that he, like the Average, man in the street, had not time for this sort of thing. He had to win the War. He does injustice to himself by putting himself in the same class with the average man in the street. He is a great deal better. He is one of our leaders. We look to him for light and leading, and he certainly is a model of patience and industry. I wish I could think that he had greater authority and power in the War Office than I fear he has. Although he told us at the beginning of his speech that he, like the man in the street, had practically no time for those things, he told us at the end that he had been giving his attention to hardly anything else for days past. Which does he mean?

It being one hour after the conclusion of Government Business, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 22nd February.

Adjourned at One minutes after Five o'clock.