House of Commons
Wednesday, April 19, 1916
Private Business
Local Government Provisional Order (No. 3) Bill,
"To confirm a Provisional Order of the Local Government Board relating to Stafford," presented by Mr. HAYES FISHER; supported by Mr. Long; read the first time; referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 27].
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill,
"To confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board relating to Dover, Hedon, Scarborough, and Sheffield," presented by Mr. HAYES FISHER; supported by Mr. Long; read the first time; referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 28].
SWORN STATEMENT BY HORST VON DER GOLTZ, alias BRIDGEMAN TAYLOR (MISCELLANEOUS, No. 13, 1916)
Copy presented of Sworn Statement by Horst Von der Goltz, alias Bridgeman Taylor [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
National Insurance Act
Copy presented of Regulations, dated 14th April, 1916, made by the National Health Insurance Joint Committee and by the Insurance Commissioners, the Scottish, the Irish, and the Welsh Insurance Commissioners, entitled the National Health Insurance (Approved Societies) Consolidated Regulations, 1916 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Shops Act, 1912
Copies presented of Orders made by the Councils of the undermentioned local authorities, and confirmed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department:—
County of Bedford (parish of Leighton Buzzard);
Urban districts of Crompton and Stretford
[by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Inebriates Acts (Inspector's Report) (Ireland)
Copy presented of Twelfth Report of the Inspector for Ireland under the Inebriates Acts, 1879 to 1900, for the year 1915 (with Appendices) [by Command]; to, lie upon the Table.
Education (Scotland)
Copy presented of Minute of the Committee of Council on Education in Scotland, dated 19th April, 1916, amending the Regulations for the Preliminary Education, Training, and Certification of Teachers for various grades of Schools, 1915 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Colonial Reports (Annual)
Copies presented of Colonial Reports Nos. 882 (Imperial Institute, Report for 1914) and 883 (Nyassaland, Report for 1914–15) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
County Court Rules
Paper laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House:—Copy of Rules, dated 11th April, 1916 [by Act].
Welsh University and Colleges (Grants-In-Aid)
Copy ordered, "of Report of the Advisory Committee on Grants to Universities and Colleges, with Supplementary Memorandum (26th February, 1914), and of Reports of the Departmental Committee on the National Medical School for Wales at Cardiff and of the Treasury Minutes thereon."—[ Mr. Montagu. ]
Copy presented accordingly; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 62.]
Ultimus Hæres (Scotland)
Account and List of Estates
Return ordered "of Abstract Account of the receipts and payments of the King's and Lord Treasurer's Remembrancer in Scotland, in the year ended the 31st day of December, 1915, in the administration of Estates and Treasure Trove on behalf of the Crown:
And of alphabetical List of Estates which fell to the Crown as Ultimus Hæres in, Scotland, administered by the King's and Lord Treasurer's Remembrancer in the same year."—[ Mr. Montagu. ]
Oral Answers to Questions
War
Auxiliary Sick-Berth Staff, St. John's Ambulance Brigade
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention has been called to the disabilities affecting the sick-berth staff regarding pay and promotion; whether he is aware that since the outbreak of war the calling up of the St. John's Ambulance Brigade has materially affected promotion in the ranks of the sick-berth staff; that the new comers are receiving pay equivalent to that of first sick-berth stewards, men often of some twelve years' service; that the admission of the St. John's Ambulance Brigade causes advancement, always slow in this branch of the service, to become still slower, and that men of the St. John's Ambulance Brigade are frequently placed over men of the sick-berth staff possessing greater experience; and can he see his way to extend a higher rate of pay to the sick-berth staff and give them automatic promotion?
The calling up of the Auxiliary Sick-Berth Staff (St. John's Ambulance Brigade) during the period of hostilities cannot possibly affect the general rate of promotion in the active service sick-berth staff. The members of this Reserve receive the rates of pay which were fixed for them. So far as I know, it is not correct that men of the St. John's Ambulance Brigade are placed over men of the active service sick-berth staff possessing greater qualifica- tions and experience. I may say, generally, that it is not in contemplation to make any general change in the conditions of the active service sick-berth staff, the conditions of service for which have already been carefully considered and considerable improvements made in recent years.
Rosyth Dockyard (Discharge of Workmen)
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that men resident in the Dunfermline district who have been employed at Rosyth dockyard for some months past are being paid off so that they may be induced to join the Army, while their places are being filled by men, both single and married, who have been sent up from the South; whether the married men thus introduced are receiving a higher wage than that received by those from the locality who have been recently employed; and whether this preferential treatment of English over Scottish workmen is either equitable or conducive to true economy?
The suggestion conveyed in the earlier part of the question is not correct. We have, of course, found it necessary to transfer men from the Southern yards, particularly mechanics and skilled labourers of the classes needed and accustomed to dockyard work and routine. But, on the other hand, we have secured, and shall be glad to secure, as many suitable men as necessary and possible from the locality, constant representations having been made to the local Labour Exchanges to that end. As regards the reference to the higher wage paid to the transferees, we have felt in justice compelled to give these men subsistence money until they have had time and opportunity to move their homes, and also a special addition to their wage of 2s. a week to cover other inconveniences involved in setting up new homes. But, if I may be allowed to say so, to construe this into a preferential treatment for English workmen over Scottish workmen is absurd. We have, I am glad to say, the privilege to have in our employment everywhere a considerable number of Scotsmen, many of them in high rank, and it is worth noting that this alleged prejudice against Scotsmen has had this curious result in this particular case that the highest post in the dockyard itself is held by a Scotsman, namely, Commodore Bruce.
Belgium (Remittances of Money)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that sums of money are being transmitted by postal or money orders by Belgians in England and Scotland to their relatives and friends in Belgium; as no acknowledgment of the receipt of these remittances reaches the sender in England or Scotland can he state what guarantee there is that these moneys do not get into the hands of the German authorities in Belgium; and if he can ascertain whether the money is given to the recipient in cash or in goods, and through what agency it is given?
No such information is in the possession of the Foreign Office. If my hon. and gallant Friend will furnish particulars of the cases which have come to his knowledge inquiry will be made.
Occupied Territory (Relief Funds)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) how much the French Government contributes to the Commission for the relief of Belgians and French in the occupied territory; how much is contributed by the Belgian Government for the relief of Belgians in Belgium; whether the whole of the latter sum is contributed out of the British Loan; whether he can state what portion of the public subscriptions in cash received by the Commission for Relief, and amounting to £2,214,220 during the twelve months ending November last, was raised by Great Britain, the British Colonies, and America respectively; and (2) at what date the contribution by His Majesty's Government of £100,000 a month to the relief of the Belgians began, when these monthly contributions ceased, and for what reason were they stopped; at what date the loan of £1,000,000 a month to the Belgian Government began and on what conditions was the loan made; and whether any portion of the loan was earmarked for the feeding of Belgians; and, if so, how much?
I am informed that to answer these questions would involve a large amount of labour and the consumption of a great deal of time, and I do not think it would be in the public interest that this additional burden should be placed on those who are carrying out a policy to which His Majesty's Government are bound by every obligation of gratitude and honour.
Zeppelins (Textile Material)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has official information to the effect that the warp and the woof of all or nearly all the textile material used by Germany in the manufacture of all or nearly all the Zeppelins since the outbreak of war was made in our own factories; if so, when information of this trade first reached the British authorities; and if effective steps have been taken to put a stop to it?
I have no information to this effect.
Has the right hon. Gentleman got any unofficial information?
No, I have not, but I should be very glad to receive any if my hon. Friend has got some.
Sweden
asked what is the effect of recent legislation in Sweden on the endeavours of the British Government to restrict the trade of Germany by private agreements?
The War Trade Law, which is probably referred to, only became law on the 13th April, and it is impossible to predict what its effect will be. This will depend on the manner in which the Swedish Government make use of the wide powers which it confers on them.
Merchants' Guild (Herr Otto Madsen)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Danish merchant, Herr Otto Madsen, who broke faith by sending consignments of coffee to Germany after pledging his word to keep them in Denmark, has been and will be kept on the black list; whether he is aware that Herr Otto Madsen, following the decision of the Colonial Ware Dealers' general meeting, resigned his position as vice-chairman; and whether, instead of allowing our representatives in Copenhagen to pursue a weak course, instructions will be issued to them to request that Herr Otto Madsen should be expelled from the Merchants' Guild, and no longer get the good faith attestation papers enabling him to obtain imports?
I would refer the hon. Member in reply to the answer to a question about this firm on 21st March. It would be contrary to the public interest to deal by way of question and answer in this House with the composition and scope of the so-called black list.
Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the answer did not state what happened to Herr Madsen? Is the question still sub judice as far as the Government are concerned?
I must request my hon. and gallant Friend not to ask me to say what exactly is the practice. I cannot go any further than the answer.
Sinhalese People (Memorial)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will lay upon the Table of the House a copy of the memorial of the Sinhalese people, with or without appendices, and also a copy of his reply to the same?
The memorial in question appears to have been widely circulated in this country, and I see no sufficient reason for reprinting it at the public expense. I shall be happy to furnish the hon. Gentleman with a copy for his perusal, if he desires, and also a copy of my reply.
Is this memorial properly described as the memorial of the Sinhalese people?
That description is not applied to it officially. I do not know what description may be applied to it unofficially. I should hesitate to endorse it in these circumstances.
Seeing that we have had the official statement from one side of a very large number of people—122,000—would it not be well and for the public benefit to have a publication of the other side of the question?
I see no reason for printing it. The hon. Member will have ample opportunity for discussing it or of getting it raised if he wishes.
Economic Conference (Paris)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will lay upon the Table the correspondence that has passed between his Department and the Dominion Government of Canada respecting the Economic Conference shortly to be held in Paris?
On the 15th of March I telegraphed to the Governor-General, saying, "An Economic Conference of the Allies is to be held at Paris on the invitation of the French Government. The representative of this country, and, I presume, of the other Allied Governments, will attend so far as arrangements after the War are concerned for the purpose of discussion only, and this Government will not be committed in any way in regard to trade after the War. If, as a result of the Conference any action should be contemplated no step will be taken without full consultation with the Dominions." The Canadian Government, on the understanding that nothing is to be done at the Conference which will commit them in anyway, have expressed themselves content with the arrangements made. It is not proposed to lay Papers.
asked the Prime Minister what representation Ireland and Scotland are to have at the approaching Economical Conference in Paris commensurate with their respective contributions in men and money to the War, compared with the contributions of any self-governing Dominion having representation at that Conference; and by whom are the representatives of Ireland and Scotland, respectively, to be chosen?
No self-governing Dominion will have a representative at the Conference, and the hon. Member's question therefore does not arise.
asked the Prime Minister whether any instructions have yet been drawn up for the Imperial representatives at the forthcoming Economic Conference at Paris; and, if so, will he place these instructions upon the Table of the House before the Adjournment?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative; the second does not, therefore, arise.
Will any instructions be given?
I would not like to commit myself to that. No instructions have yet been given.
asked the Secretary of State for India whether the communication sent by the Imperial Government to the Dominions explaining the scope of the proposed Economic Conference in Paris has also been forwarded to the Government of India; and whether he is able to give an assurance that the representatives of India will take part in the full discussion with regard to questions affecting trade after the War?
The Government of India have been informed of the scope of the Conference, and have been assured that if, as the result of the Conference, any action should be contemplated, no step would be taken without full consultation with them as with the Governments of the Dominions.
General Staff (Attached Officers)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, in the case of certain officers who have been attached to the General Staff of commands, without any pay or allowances other than the ordinary pay of their rank, for instruction in General Staff duties and for the purpose of relieving the pressure of work falling upon the General Staff officers on the establishment, it is the intention of the Army Council to officially recognise the work of these officers by granting them Staff appointments or such other official recognition as they would seem to merit?
The object of attaching selected officers to Brigade, Divisional, or Headquarters Staffs for instruction is their ultimate employment, if found suitable, in temporary Staff appointments. In this sense the answer to my hon. Friend's question is in the affirmative, but he must not draw the conclusion that every officer so attached will necessarily be given a temporary Staff appointment.
Defence of the Realm Act
Deportation from Ireland
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will say why Mr. Ernest Blythe has been transferred from the place in which he had been ordered to reside; where he is now; and the nature and conditions of the restraint to which he is subject?
Mr. Ernest Blythe was ordered to proceed to Abingdon and there to report his intended place of residence to the police and to the competent military authority. He reached Abingdon on Monday, 10th April, and by Wednesday night had reported his address neither to the police nor to the competent military authority. On 13th April he was arrested under No. 55 of the Defence of the Realm Regulations for failing to comply with the order issued under No. 14 of those Regulations. He is now in custody and will be brought to trial on this charge to-morrow.
Why has this man been denied the right of trial by jury?
That does not arise out of the question on the Paper.
Military Service
Cases Under Consideration
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the Paddington Tribunal is correct in holding that Denis Moran, son of a widow wholly dependent on him, whose sight is certified by the official oculist at the White City to be, right eye, with glasses, 6/18, left eye, with glasses, nil, is fit for secondary or Home military service, and that in the event of his weak and inflamed eyes becoming blind on exposure he and his mother would be pensioned; if such decisions are incorrect, will that tribunal be so informed; and will Moran's appeal be considered by the Central Tribunal?
I will have inquiry made into this matter.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will cause an inquiry to be made into the case of Thomas E. Parry, No. 35,042, 3rd Cheshires, who died on the 4th March, after having been passed into the Army for general service though subject to fits from infancy, and being obliged, notwithstanding his complaint to the medical officer, to march 8 miles?
I have asked for a report on this matter.
Disobedience to Orders
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the attention of the Secretary of State for War has been called to the sentences of two years' imprisonment with hard labour passed by a district court-martial on two members of a non-combatant corps stationed at Kinmel Park for disobedience to orders; whether he will give the names of the two men; whether he will state the circumstances under which this sentence was given; and whether the Secretary of State will advise the release of these men conditionally on their undertaking to obey orders in future?
The court-martial proceedings in this case have not yet reached the War Office. Attention will be given to them as soon as they arrive. In the meantime I cannot express any opinion on the matter.
Conscientious Objectors
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War how many conscientious objectors have been deprived of their liberty by military authority for refusing to obey the judgments of the military service tribunals; where they are imprisoned; and under what discipline are they as to food and clothing and communication with their friends?
I have no information on the first two parts of the question. The answer to the third part is that the treatment which soldiers under punishment receive is contained in Rules for Military Detention Barracks and Military Prisons, which are statutory and authorised under Section 133 (2) of the Army Act, of which I am sending a copy to my hon. Friend.
How many of these men are in prison?
I do not know. I dare say the information can be obtained.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War what action he proposes to take in the case of Harold Brook, a conscientious objector under the Military Service Act, 1916, who was arrested at Pontefract on 11th April, and marched through the streets of Pontefract escorted by six soldiers, to be jeered at by the people; and if the military officers have received instructions to revive the pillory in the case of conscientious objectors?
I have called for a report.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take care that nothing is done to outrage the patriotic feelings of the people of Pontefract?
I will see that that is safeguarded.
asked the Prime Minister what action the Government propose to take in the cases of men who have been refused exemption under the Military Service Act, 1916, and who are prepared to resist military duties to the utmost, but who will undertake work of national importance for which provision is made under the Act, and with the object of avoiding the trouble which will otherwise follow; and, in order to utilise the services of these men in the most useful and economical way in the national interests, will he make arrangements by which these men may be allowed to engage in national work of importance outside the military machine?
The men in question are soldiers under military law, and they must be dealt with as such.
Seeing that that is precisely the answer that I got to a similar question last week, may I ask whether the Government are willing for this state of chaos to continue, where men who have been guilty of precisely the same military offence are in some cases being sentenced to two years imprisonment with hard labour and in others discharged and handed over to the civil authorities for employment?
I do not think that that is an accurate statement of the case.
It is.
I am afraid I cannot accept it. It all turns on whether the cases are precisely similar. According to my information there are great variations in the cases. The Government are watching the development of this part of the Act very carefully. I am bound to say that the agitation carried on here on behalf of the conscientious objector is doing the greatest possible harm to the cause of the genuine conscientious objector.
Is not the way to put a stop to the agitation for the Government to see that their own Act is impartially and judicially carried out?
Everything possible is being done.
asked the Home Secretary whether the small number of conscientious objectors under the Military Service Act, 1916, who are now in prisons controlled by the Home Office is exclusive of those punished by the military authorities?
I understood that my hon. Friend's question on Monday referred only to the prisons under my jurisdiction, and my answer related only to them.
How many have there been under the military authorities?
I do not know. That question should be addressed to the representative of the War Office.
Medical Examination Fees
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that a number of doctors were appointed by recruiting officers in the early period of the War to examine recruits at a fee of 2s. 6d. per head; whether such fees were from time to time paid; whether he is aware that many doctors, during the period of rush in December, 1915, gave up their private practice and, with the help of assistants working twelve to fifteen hours a day, examined and passed a number of recruits, but have been refused payment of anything more than £2 per day, representing sixteen recruits; and whether he will cause an inquiry to be held into the matter?
The ordinary fee is 2s. 6d. per recruit examined, and this regulation was in force at the beginning of the War. But in February, 1915, it was modified to the effect that where considerable numbers were examined £2 should be the maximum payment for a full day's work.
Local Tribunals
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War (1) whether he is aware that notices have been sent out at Carmarthen to persons who were postponed recently by the local tribunal that these postponements are going to be reviewed on the application of the recruiting officer; that the recruiting officer did not appeal to the Central Tribunal against such postponements; whether it is the policy of the War Office that the decisions of the local tribunal should be reviewed by the same tribunal before the term of postponement has expired at the caprice of the recruiting officer; if not, whether he will take steps to allay the irritation and discontent caused in Carmarthen and district by the injudicious conduct of the recruiting officer by removing him to another district where he will understand the language of the people and where his methods may be appreciated; and (2) whether he is aware that Private W. D. Charles, No. 2,350, of the 1/7th Battalion Welsh Regiment, was refused exemption by the local tribunal at Llanelly in January last, and that he then joined the said battalion; that he appealed to the Central Tribunal, which gave him in March last two months' extension till 4th May; that the War Office, upon representation made to them of the facts, wrote to the recruiting officers that Private Charles was not to be called up till 4th May, instead of ordering his company commander to give him leave till 4th May; that owing to this blunder on the part of the authorities Private Charles was not given leave till 14th April; and whether he will take steps to ensure that Private Charles shall have an extension of his leave which will give him the two months' extension granted by the Central Tribunal?
I am calling for a report on these two cases.
Boys Under Age Enlisted
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the case of William George Winchcombe, a lad of seventeen, who is now a private in No. 2 Battery, Wessex Brigade, stationed at Rollestone; whether he is aware that the lad's mother, who is a widow, has applied for his release and has furnished a birth certificate proving that he was born on 20th August, 1898; and whether, under these circumstances, he will order the lad's release until he attains the age of eighteen years?
I explained to the House the course followed by the military authorities in cases of this nature in the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Blackburn on the 2nd November, 1915.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that answer said that boys under seventeen would be discharged apart altogether from their physical condition?
Yes, under seventeen, they are.
Attested Married Men
asked the Prime Minister if his statement to the attested married men's deputation that men who had been led to attest on the strength of misleading promises made to them would be released if they could prove such to be the case extends to the cases where men were told by canvassers that they must first attest or otherwise they would not be allowed to appeal for exemption?
In the statement referred to I carefully guarded myself against pronouncing on the validity of any particular plea for exemption, and I must adopt the same attitude on the question put by my hon. Friend.
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of any intimation having been given to married men who were led to attest on the understanding that all available single men would be first called to the Colours that large numbers of single men would, with the assistance of a Government Committee set up for the purpose, be exempt on the plea of conscience from the dangers of military service and enabled to fill positions vacated by attested married men when called up?
The answer is in the negative.
Non-Combatant Service
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if men who have been given non-combatant service under the Military Service Act, 1916, have already been sent to France or are about to be sent there; will he say what kind of work these men are doing in France or will be put to do; if they are being sent to erect wire fences under the enemy fire; and, if so, is this held to be non-combatant service?
Men who have been granted exemption from combatant service under the Military Service Act have been appointed to companies of the Non-Combatant Corps. These companies will shortly be sent to France. They may be employed in road-making, hutting, timber cutting, quarrying, sanitary work, loading and unloading of ships and vehicles, and digging, provided they are not employed in the firing line. They will not be employed in erecting wire fences under enemy fire.
Why not?
They would run away.
Parliamentary Committee (Cirencester)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if it is with the approval of the War Office that the Parliamentary Committee for the Cirencester Division of Gloucestershire have published letters in the local Press, signed by the chairman and joint secretaries, asking the inhabitants of the district to hunt out men who they think should come under the Military Service Act, 1916, or who are no longer indispensable in their work, and promising that under no circumstances will the names of the informants be disclosed?
I was not aware that the Parliamentary Committee mentioned had taken the steps described in the question. It is the duty of everyone, I think, to assist in giving effect to the laws passed by Parliament, and I cannot condemn the action which this committee is said to have taken.
Members of Parliament (Letters)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he has any information that any abuse has prevailed by reason of the privilege given to men at the front to communicate with Members of this House without their letters being censored, provided such communications are addressed to Members at the House?
No, Sir, no abuse has been discovered, so far as I am aware, by reason of the immunity from censorship of letters coming to Members of either House of Parliament at the Palace of Westminster. It is with reference to communications in the reverse direction that there is evidence of abuse. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I did not mean to bring any charge against hon. Members; I did not mean that. It is apparently simple for the notepaper of this House to be obtained by wholly unauthorised persons, and I have evidence that it has got into very undesirable hands. It is also evident that there is no difficulty in posting letters within the precincts of the Palace of Westminster. In these circumstances, I am prepared either on my own responsibility to withdraw the privilege of immunity from censorship or, if the House thinks that this course should not be taken without further examination, to set up a Select Committee to investigate the subject.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when I first raised this question I only asked that permission should be given to men at the front to write direct to Members of this House, and not for permission for letters to go out; and this was the undertaking that he gave?
I do not remember that; I am much obliged to my hon. Friend; therefore I will ask the House generally to inform me, through the usual channels, whether they think that this is a matter which deserves so heavy machinery as to have a Select Committee—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"]—or whether they will permit me, on my own responsibility—[HON. MEMBERS: "Yes."]—to withdraw the immunity.
Is my right hon. Friend aware, as a matter of fact, that there are a great many postal pillars in the House which are open to the public, and could he not get over the difficulty by confining the postal pillars to places where Members only could post?
Really, I think that to be inconvenient.
Would it not be possible to have a pillar-box for Members alone?
No, Sir, I am afraid that there are some clever people who would nullify that arrangement.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say why a privilege is given in connection with the Army that is not given in connection with the Navy; why should this be desirable in the one case and not in the other?
I am not aware that there is not the same immunity in the matter of the censorship with regard to the Navy.
There is a censorship with regard to the Navy.
Royal Sussex Regiment (Robert Miller)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been drawn to the case of Robert Miller, No. 9513, I.M.F., Royal Sussex Regiment, Railway Road, New-haven, who joined the Army on 25th November, 1913, being at that time in perfect health, was vaccinated eight days later, and suffered so severely from the operation that after nine or ten weeks in the hospital attached to the barracks of the East Surrey Regiment he bought himself out of the Army; whether, after suffering for two years from the effects of vaccination and bringing his case to the notice of the War Office, he was, in January or February this year, examined twice by an Army Medical Board and awarded a pension of 4s. 8d. per week for six months by the Chelsea Pension Board as some recognition of the fact that his illness is due to vaccination in the Army; whether, in spite of this admission by an Army Medical Board of the man's illness and the fact that eruptions of the disease were on his face at the time, two Army doctors (out of three) who examined him at the White City on 7th March passed him as fit for service; whether, since rejoining the Army, he has been found incapable of heavy work and given light duty; and whether, in the interests of the Army, he will see that this sick man is at once discharged?
This case has already been brought to notice by the Anti-vaccination League, and a report upon the facts as stated by that league has been called for.
Recruiting Officers
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is aware that recruiting officers seem to have no information with reference to the fact that only those who had actually reached the age of nineteen would be taken for service; and if he will give orders that it is their duty to give every information to applicants?
Yes, Sir; as our attention was directed to some want of uniformity of action, fresh instructions on this matter are being issued.
Work of National Importance
asked the Prime Minister whether service in the Forces of the Crown and the production of munitions of war are both works of national importance and are both in urgent need of men; and why it has been found necessary to set up a committee to discover other works of national importance in which workers are needed until the requirements of the Navy, Army, and munitions have been met?
Under the Military Service Act, 1916, a local tribunal may grant to an applicant seeking exemption on conscientious grounds a certificate of exemption conditional on his being engaged in some work of national importance. The committee referred to by the hon. and gallant Gentleman was set up to advise tribunals desiring assistance as to what service of national importance such applicants could or should undertake.
Steel Helmets
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether steel helmets have been supplied to the forces or any of them now engaged on the River Tigris and the River Euphrates?
No, Sir. I understand that the steel helmet is not suitable for use in the climate of the regions named.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the steel helmet issued to the troops weighs 32 ozs., and is not ventilated, and therefore very unsuitable for its purpose; whether there is in existence a pattern helmet, properly ventilated and only weighing 16 ozs.; and whether the War Office will consider substituting this improved pattern for the one in use?
The service steel helmet weighs 32 ozs. Improved internal fittings are now being made which will improve the ventilation and render the helmet more comfortable. The helmet has given great satisfaction and has saved many casualties. It is not proposed to alter the pattern. I know of no helmet weighing 16 ozs. that possesses equal resistance properties.
Can the hon. Gentleman state the weight of the French helmet?
Not without notice.
Is not the French helmet much better and more efficient and 8 ozs. less in weight?
I am aware that that is entirely incorrect.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether it has been found necessary to arrange for canvas covers to be supplied for wear over the British Army steel helmet, owing to the reflection of light from the top of the helmet in bright or wet weather; whether he can state why this defect was not provided for when the helmets were first issued in bulk; and how soon the troops will be fully supplied with these covers?
Experience has shown that the smooth dome of the helmet may reflect the light to some extent in bright or wet weather. Steps are now being taken to remedy this defect.
Arising out of the reply, will the hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the question: When this, difficulty will be properly remedied?
It is being remedied, not by the provision of covers, but by doing something to the helmet itself.
Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that an order has been issued to the British Expeditionary Force, and that covers are being provided for every helmet?
All I have to say to that is that the Munitions Department has not been asked to provide them.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that active hostilities have been and are in daily progress in various parts of the Western front, that the whole French army has been wearing steel helmets for several months, and that British casualties and deaths that would be avoided by the wearing of steel helmets occur frequently; and whether he will state the approximate date by which the fighting forces of the British Army will be fully supplied with steel helmets?
The propositions set out in the first part of the question are, I think, correct. I cannot inform the hon. and gallant Member by what date the steel helmets will have been all supplied. I would refer him for a statement of some considerations which bear upon this matter to the answer by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of Munitions to my hon. Friend the Member for the Inverness Boroughs on the 17th April.
May I inquire whether the feelings of those officers who were to take men into the trenches inadequately protected are ever considered in connection with this question of the supply of helmets?
Yes, Sir, always!
Cavalry Officers
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War (1) the number of Cavalry captains with fifteen years' service and over who are being superseded by Infantry officers of fifteen years' service; in view of the fact that nearly all these Cavalry officers are fighting at the front, he will now consider their claim to promotion; (2) whether, in view of the fact that British captains in the Indian Army, both Cavalry and Infantry, are now receiving sympathetic promotion to the rank of major without increase of pay after sixteen years' service, as the result of the promotion in the British Infantry after fifteen years' service, and as this promotion granted to the Indian Army is identical with that which should be granted to the British Cavalry for captains of fifteen years' service and over on 17th February, 1916, he will now reconsider the position and promotion of these officers; and (3) whether he is aware that majors are not transferred from Cavalry regiments to In- fantry battalions but are merely attached to Infantry battalions; and, seeing that this procedure creates no vacancies for majorities in Cavalry regiments, so that the promotion of captains of fifteen years' service is not thereby accelerated, will he say what action he proposes to take?
All these three questions raise in different forms the same point. As I have before stated, the promotion of officers of the Infantry to the rank of major after fifteen years' service was decided on in the interests of the Service and not of the individual. No necessity for the adoption of similar measures exists in the Cavalry which has not been expanded, and no steps are in contemplation. I may add that for many years promotion in the Cavalry was far more rapid than in the Infantry, and that those interested in the Cavalry did not then press for Infantry promotion to be accelerated and still less for Cavalry promotion to be retarded. The hon. and gallant Member must therefore be regarded as a late convert to the principle of sympathetic promotion all round. As regards question 19, I cannot admit that the case there quoted is analogous to that of the British Cavalry.
How many officers have been superseded by this system?
I cannot possibly say.
Air Services
South-East Coast Defences
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he has received an urgent request from a town on the South-East Coast for two aeroplanes for defence against raiders; whether the mayor of such town has offered to pay for such machines; and what is the reason why they cannot be sent?
The Mayor of Ramsgate has asked that two aeroplanes should be allowed for the protection of the town. The provision of such aeroplanes does not depend upon the willingness of the mayor to pay for either the cost of the machines or the cost of providing the personnel. It depends upon considerations which it is obviously undesirable to refer to in the House or in any public place. Bait the hon. Gentleman can rest assured that every possible step is being taken to protect the South-East Coast.
Anti-Aircraft Guns
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the difficulty when anti-aircraft guns are firing simultaneously at an object of the individual gunners spotting their shots, he will consider the advisability of the introduction of distinctive coloured bursts, and thus enable each gun to estimate and correct the range?
The suggestion is one that has been frequently made, and has been the subject of numerous experiments in our own and in foreign armies. It has, however, been found to be impracticable, and, so far as known, has never been adopted in any country.
Pilots Killed
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he can inform the House of the number of air pilots killed or seriously injured during the recent Zeppelin raids; whether he has satisfied himself that these casualties were not due to the employment of machines unsuitable for night flying and to the effects of inadequately lighted landing places; and can he say why losses in the air are not as fully and promptly recorded as losses in the field?
Since the 1st January four pilots have been killed or have died of injuries and one was badly injured and has since recovered. The aeroplanes used by these officers were all eminently suited for night flying and in no cases were the accidents due to inadequately lighted landing places. The same procedure is followed in reporting casualties at home as in publishing those which occur abroad.
Does the right hon. Gentleman wish me to supply him with further evidence that these accidents have happened owing to unsuitably lighted aerodromes?
No, Sir. I do not wish the hon. Gentleman to do anything of the kind. My information is that they have occurred through other causes than inadequately lighted landing places.
Have any complaints reached the right hon. Gentleman from residents in the neighbourhood of these lighted stations complaining that such lights act as a guide to the enemy when flying over their neighbourhood, and that only recently very grave disturbance has been caused by the use of these lights; and whether he can see his way to order that they should be removed from places where there is considerable residential property?
My right hon. Friend was good enough to bring to me complaints in the sense he mentions, but I would point out to him that landing places are important, and room must be found for them somewhere. Of course, I agree with him that it is desirable that they should be as remote as possible from thickly-populated parts of the country, and, so far as I am aware, that is so. With regard to the special case my right hon. Friend has in view, I will have further inquiry made.
Will my right hon. Friend undertake, when a Zeppelin raid is expected, to notify the area in order that the people may clear away from their homes until the danger passes?
That, of course, is a totally different question, but it is invariably done.
Enemy Raids
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government are prepared to consider any representations from owners of undefended property damaged in recent air raids in Scotland, with a view to some compensation?
No claim for compensation can be considered from property owners who have omitted to insure under the Government scheme for aircraft and bombardment risks.
Can my right hon. Friend say whether the only defence for those people is the insurance scheme?
Committee of Inquiry
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the charges of inefficiency and intrigue and also the allegations concerning the deaths, losses, and injuries among our flying men made by the Member for East Herts applied equally to the Royal Naval Air Service and the Royal Flying Corps; whether he will now give an assurance that the terms of reference to the Committee the Government have promised to appoint will be so framed as to include both branches of the Air Service; and will the Committee be given such powers as to enable them to make effective recommendations?
I will consider this suggestion with the First Lord of the Admiralty.
Investigation by Lord Curzon
asked the Prime Minister (1) whether, in view of recent statements, he can say if the Government have any approximate figures as to the number of Zeppelins and other enemy aircraft built or building; whether the localities of the Zeppelin and enemy aircraft factories and their principal bases are known; whether any considered offensive policy for the defence of the country by attacking these factories and bases has yet been determined upon; (2) whether the public speeches of Lord Montagu have been brought to his notice; whether, before the House adjourns for the Easter Recess he can make any statement which will reassure the public that the resignations of Lord Derby and Lord Montagu have been taken by the Government as exposing the futility of the Joint Air War Committee and the necessity for the immediate appointment of a body which shall have real executive power; and (3) whether the resignations of the civilian members of the Joint Air War Committee have resulted in the cessation of the meetings of the Committee; and, if so, can he give any reason why the expert representatives of the two Services should not continue their deliberations?
asked the Prime Minister (1) whether his attention has been called, either by Lord Derby or Lord Montagu, to the elements which have done so much to mar the efficiency not only of the Committee known as the Air Committee but of the Air Service itself; whether he is aware that friction also still exists between the two Services themselves and between officers in high positions in the same Service; if he will take steps to put a stop to these quarrels; (2) if he can suggest any idea of the date when he will give the promised day for the discussion on our Air Services; whether he can hold out any hope that the Government intends so to co-ordinate the present system of control that, while the Navy and the Army shall each retain the necessary power over the actions of their own units, there shall be one single responsible chief of the Air Services, presided over by an advisory committee consisting of men with unquestioned knowledge and experience in actual flying as now practised as well as in aircraft construction and organisation; and (3) if he can inform the House whether the Committee from which Lord Derby and Lord Montagu resigned will be re-constituted with the fuller powers recommended by these Noble Lords, and in such a manner that its chairman or president shall become the Minister responsible to this House for the efficient administration and supply of our Air Services?
My Noble Friend Lord Curzon, at my request, has carefully examined the whole of the aircraft situation, and as a result of that examination he has presented a Report which, without disclosing its precise contents, I may say recommends large changes in organisation. It is under the consideration of the Cabinet, and I cannot say at this moment the final decision at which we shall arrive.
Royal Aircraft Factory
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the dissatisfaction existing amongst experienced and practical flying men with the methods still dominating the Royal Aircraft Factory; if he is aware that, while it is admitted that the O'Gorman régime produced in pre-war days an excellent flying machine, the machines which have been lately favoured by the Royal Aircraft Factory are by no means the best obtainable for war purposes; and if he will now place this factory and the whole question of aircraft supply under the Ministry of Munitions?
The Royal Aircraft Factory is not responsible for the selecttion of the types of aeroplanes to be used by the Royal Flying Corps. I do not, therefore, quite understand the first two parts of this question. As the statements made in the first two parts of the question are not in my opinion correct, the last part of the question does not, I think, arise.
Questions
Acting Paymasters
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the fact that certain acting paymasters employed in Army pay offices at home are in receipt of a higher rate of pay than senior field cashiers employed at the front; whether field cashiers are chosen and drafted to foreign service from the class of acting paymasters at home, and have, in addition to constant personal danger and discomfort, financial responsibility amounting in some cases to the handling of a million francs a week or more of public money, whereas the duties of acting paymaster involve neither personal danger nor financial responsibility, and they can live in conditions of comparative comfort; and, if so, what steps it is proposed to take to remedy such an inequitable state of affairs?
A certain number of acting paymasters at home who are performing really superior duties have been granted an extra allowance of £50 per annum. Field cashiers are found from among acting paymasters at home and, as their title implies, are concerned with the handling of public money. In some cases they are exposed to danger, though no casualties have been reported. Their present pay is considered adequate to their work.
Pulmonary Tuberculosis
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will state on what grounds the Army Council have decided that a soldier must be discharged from the Army directly it is determined that he is suffering from pulmonary tuberculosis and without giving him any period of treatment first, as is done in the case of all other diseases from which soldiers suffer even when rendered unfit for service; and whether he will state the Regulation under which this action is taken in respect of this one disease?
It is considered that a man suffering from pulmonary tuberculosis is unfit to serve as a soldier. It is essential that these cases should be specially treated in a sanatorium at as early a date as possible. With this object, in the man's own interest, arrangements have been made with the National Health Insurance Commissioners and the Local Government Board that soldiers found to be suffering from tubercle of the lung shall (be discharged the Service at once and admitted to a sanatorium. The Regulation under which the discharge of the soldier is governed is King's Regulations, paragraph 399.
Is it not possible to alter the Regulations, and put this disease on all-fours with other diseases so as to give soldiers a period of suitable treatment before they are discharged from the Army?
I do not say it would not be possible; such a thing, I think, might be possible; but whether it is desirable or not is another matter. I will engage, however, to have the matter investigated.
How does my right hon. Friend explain that these soldiers can go into sanatoria when there are no vacant berths for civilians on the waiting list in London alone, and we have had to reduce the number of beds considerably owing to the shortage of money, which the National Health Commissioners refuse to supply?
That is a question pertaining to civilians, about which I do not know and I cannot possibly know. I understand that my hon. Friend suggests that all available room is taken up by soldiers.
No; there is not room for civilians.
I understand that soldiers are accommodated.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is absolutely no sanatoria accommodation available either for soldiers or civilians who live in the London district?
Hear, hear!
Is it not the fact that the greatest difficulty in getting these men to go to sanatoria is owing to the fact that no separation allowance is granted if they go there, and is not that a point to consider?
If they are discharged from the Army, of course they will get no separation allowance.
Ought they not get treatment before they are discharged?
I will have the matter looked into.
Ypres Rest Camp
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he is aware that the huts in the rest camp at Ypres are unprovided with fuel, so that the men coming out of the trenches are unable to dry their clothes; and whether he will take steps to supply sufficient fuel?
I was not aware that these huts were unprovided with fuel. I have brought the hon. Gentleman's statement to the notice of the proper authority.
Artists in Cornwall
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the artists working in Cornwall, including several members of the Royal Academy, are still refused permission to paint out of doors; whether they have applied to the Government to have the Regulations forbidding out-of-door painting modified and that this was promised at an early date at least three months ago; and whether, seeing that the season suitable for out-of-door painting is well advanced and that further delay would be a serious matter for the artists, he will at once give instructions to have the Regulations modified?
I understand that steps are being taken to make permits more easy of attainment. The War Office and the Admiralty are in communication on the matter.
Inns of Court Officers' Training Corps
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether members of the Inns of Court Officers' Training Corps will be allowed to take their discharge if found inefficient, or from other causes fail to receive commissions?
No, Sir. The individuals in question are attested Territorial soldiers.
East Lancashire Division (Choice of Unit)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the Second and Third Line battalions and other units of the East Lancashire Division would have been over established strength if the men of the 45th Provisional Battalion, who signed for Imperial service under the War Office letter of 28th December, had been sent to those battalions chosen by such men?
Men are not required at present for the 2nd or 3rd Lines of the East Lancashire Division, the 1st Line of which is not in France, but men are required for other formations which are likely to see active service. These men will, I believe, welcome the opportunity of serving their country in the manner and in the place in which their services are most valuable.
asked whether Territorial soldiers who did not sign for Imperial service, under War Office letter of 28th December, have been attached to the units chosen by themselves; and whether he will now see that the unconditional promise contained in War Office letter of 28th December is kept without delay with those men who did sign for Imperial service?
The Home Service Territorial soldiers who did not sign Army Form E.624 are at the present time either still serving in Provisional Units or, in the case of those coming under the provisions of the Military Service Act, 1916, have become members of Class B of the Army Reserve. In regard to the last part of the question, I have nothing to add to what I have already stated.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the very strongly-felt grievance of these men in being attached to battalions other than those they themselves have chosen in the terms of the unconditional promise of the War Office, and will the War Office fulfil those terms?
I have stated on more than one occasion that it is necessary to ask these men to serve in that part of the Army where their services are most required. I would ask my hon. Friend not to associate himself more in sympathy with the men who consider themselves not to have been properly treated in this matter, but rather to encourage them to think that they are doing the best and most patriotic duty they can perform by serving at the place and in the manner in which their services are most required.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this cuts at the root of the Territorial system?
The War cuts at the root of many things.
Volunteer Training Corps (Easter ManœUvres)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will arrange for members of the Volunteer Corps who take part in Easter manœuvres to get the necessary passes on the railway lines, or railway tickets at reduced rates, to enable them to go to and from their place of abode?
Arrangements will be made for the issue of railway warrants to members of Volunteer Corps who are employed on military work under the orders of the War Office or General Headquarters, Home Forces.
Are we to understand that that applies to ordinary manœuvres?
Where manœuvres are carried out under the orders of the War Office or General Headquarters.
Will the Volunteers, when they come under the Act of 1863, be allowed to travel at single fare for the return journey, as the old Volunteers used to do?
This question only relates to Volunteers taking part in the Easter Manœuvres, and my reply is limited to that.
I went a little further, and asked the hon. Gentleman to extend his answer?
I cannot go further now.
Canteen Employées in France
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War when he proposes to carry out his declared intention to enlist those canteen employés in France who are not called up for more active service; and if he is aware that resignations of these men are constantly taking place owing to the uncertainty of their position?
It is not proposed at present to call up any of the men employed with canteens in France.
Hay and Straw Supplies
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the anxiety amongst horse-keepers and farmers in Leicestershire in consequence of the new Army Order and Regulations restricting the sale and purchase of hay and straw; whether he is aware that it has been the custom in Leicestershire for horsekeepers to buy their fodder mainly from farmers or by auction in the hay markets; whether he is aware that the new Regulations will preclude the producers from selling by auction and will close the hay markets and compel horsekeepers and stock-breeders to apply to dealers for their requirements, who are not in a position to meet this new demand; and whether he will cause the new Army Order and Regulations to be reconsidered, with the view of enabling horsekeepers and stock-breeders to supply their normal requirements from the farmers or by purchase at auction without drawing upon the supplies required by the War Office?
I have not heard, previously, of the anxiety referred to in connection with the new Orders relating to hay and straw, nor do I think that its imposition need have the effects which the hon. Baronet suggests.
Increase of Rent (War Restrictions) Act
asked the Prime Minister whether the Statutory Rules and Orders, dated 29th January, 1916, made by the Lord Chancellor in accordance with Section 3 of the Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (War Restrictions) Act, 1915, are intended to, and do, apply to all Courts exercising the powers contained in such Act; whether such Rules specifically state that they shall apply to County Courts, the City of London Court, and the High Court only; whether there are and, if so, what other Courts having concurrent jurisdiction to deal with the Act which are not bound by or mentioned in the Preliminary to the Statutory Rules and Orders mentioned, and whether a Court of Summary Jurisdiction, namely, Police Court, does possess such concurrent jurisdiction, and is not bound by such Rules; if a Court of Summary Jurisdiction is not bound by such Rules and Orders, what is the proper authority controlling the same, and the Rules and Orders governing the decisions given therein; and whether he will cause the proper authorities having the control of the Courts of Summary Jurisdiction, and other authorities not subject to such Rules and Regulations, to place such Courts in the same position as County Courts, immediately altering the present legislature in order that, the various authorities exercising the powers under the Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (War Restrictions) Act, 1915, may be in a position to exercise their judicial functions in conformity with each other and thus prevent a tenant against whom proceedings are instituted by his landlord in a Court of Summary Jurisdiction from being denied the same relief which he would be entitled to if his landlord had instituted similar proceedings against him in a County Court?
The Statutory Rules and Orders referred to in the question apply, as stated in the preliminary Rule, only to County Courts and the City of London Court, except that Rule 3, as to applications under the Courts (Emergency Powers) Act, 1914, applies also to the High Court. The Act binds all Courts, including Courts of Summary Jurisdiction; but it appears that the only part of the Act directly affecting Courts of Summary Jurisdiction is Section 1, Sub-section (3), and no Rules appear to be necessary for the purposes of that Sub-section. A tenant against whom proceedings are instituted by his landlord in a Court of Summary Jurisdiction is entitled to the full benefit of the Act, and no further legislation appears to be required.
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that on the 23rd March last His Majesty's Justices of the Peace in Petty Session held at the Victoria Courts, Corporation Street, Birmingham, upon the application of Alfred E. Hudson, of Weston Stores, Tyseley, landlord of Nos. 66 and 68, Weston Lane, Tyseley, directed that warrants should be respectively issued directing constables to enter and take possession of these two dwelling-houses and to eject therefrom the tenants thereof, who are two railway servants named Thomas Roberts and Robert Callow; whether he is aware that, by paragraph 14 of the Statutory Rules and Orders, dated 29th January, 1916, made by the Lord Chancellor in accordance with Section 3 of the Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (War Restrictions) Act, 1915, provision is made that, should subsequent circumstances render it just so to do, an application may be made on notice to the Court in which proceedings, namely, for ejectment, are taken under the Act, and power is given to that Court to suspends, discharge, or otherwise vary such order made by that Court; whether he is aware that, such subsequent circumstances in the before-mentioned case of Roberts and Callow having arisen, an application was made to the Court of Summary Jurisdiction at the Victoria Courts, Birmingham, under paragraph 14 of the said Rules, and that on the 12th April last such application was dismissed by His Majesty's Justices of the Peace at the said Court, who refused to allow the applicants, Roberts and Callow, to call evidence in support thereof, the chairman stating that the Bench had grave doubts as to their powers of reversing a decision, namely, on the 23rd March, 1916, made by the magistrates in this Court under the Orders made by the Lord Chancellor; and whether, as Great Western Railway servants are compelled by the rules and regulations of the company to live within one mile of their work at the locomotive yard, Tyseley, and that owing to shortage of house accommodation in that district no other suitable houses are available, he will take immediate steps to prevent the warrants being issued and the tenants ejected, having regard to the fact that these men are respectable and responsible tenants against whom no allegation of waste or of conduct which was a nuisance or annoyance to the landlord or his adjoining tenants was made, and whose only misconduct is that they refused to pay their landlord a rent which exceeded the standard rent as provided by the Act?
The Rule referred to in the question does not apply to Courts of Summary Jurisdiction. As to the particular case mentioned, inquiries are being made.
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to conflicting decisions under the Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (War Restrictions) Act, 1915, as to deductions by a tenant from his current rent of a lump sum which in the aggregate amounts to and represents the difference between the standard rent and the weekly sum which he has paid, and as to whether the increased rent is irrecoverable from the landlord; and whether, in view of the desirability of uniformity and the urgency of preventing friction between landlords and tenants and a feeling of dissatisfaction of both classes on account of conflicting decisions and of the ambiguous nature of this legislation as it at present stands, he will introduce amendments to the Act or new legislation, or other proper means dealing with the points raised and settling the ambiguities before referred to?
If my hon. Friend will send me a note of the decisions to which the question refers, I will make inquiries.
His Majesty's Gift
asked whether the Government have now decided to what purpose the Royal gift of £100,000 is to be put?
asked the Prime Minister what the Government propose to do with the £100,000 presented to them by His Majesty; and, if no decision has yet been come to, would he consider allotting the money to the new Pension Committee in order that a special King's Pension might be granted to badly wounded and incapacitated men from the Navy and Army?
I am not yet in a position to make an announcement on this point.
Munitions
Interference With Production
asked the Prime Minister whether, seeing that a Glasgow Socialist has been convicted and sentenced to three years' penal servitude for interfering with the production of munitions urgently required by the nation, he will introduce legislation making such offences, on conviction by a jury, high treason, punishable by death?
I do not think the legislation suggested is required.
Seeing that the danger caused to the country by the action of these men is much greater than that caused by spies in many cases, why should they not be subject to the same penalty?
Questions
Old Age Pensions
asked the Prime Minister whether, seeing that on 5th May, 1915, he decided that a primâ facie case had been made out for an immediate advance of wages to coal-miners, who demanded a 20 per cent. advance to meet the increased cost of living, notwithstanding that the then rate of wages was the highest ever paid in the federated area, he is aware that the increased wages paid to miners since this date represents a charge on the present basis of approximately £25,000,000 per annum above the wage bill prior to the War; will he therefore say why he refuses during the War to make any increased grant to old age pensioners; whether he is aware that it is impossible for these old people to live on 5s. per week in view that the price of food has risen 49 per cent. above pre-war rates; whether he is aware that it is only owing to the kindness of the poor to the old age pensioners which enables them to exist; and whether he will allow the House to decide whether an increased grant should be made during the War?
With regard to the first part of the question, I must point out to my hon. Friend that my decision did not involve the expenditure of public money. With regard to the second, I must refer him to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for West Leeds on Tuesday last.
Will the Prime Minister give the House an opportunity of deciding this question? Is he aware that these £25,000,000 granted to the miners is a charge on the capital of the country?
Soldiers' and Sailors' Land Settlement (Report)
asked whether it is proposed to found legislation on the findings of the Soldiers' and Sailors' Land Settlement Report; and, if so, when the Bill will be introduced and will any discussion be allowed on the Report before a Bill is presented?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. It is hoped that a Bill may be introduced after Easter, and it will probably be found convenient to have a general discussion on one of the early stages of the Bill.
War Savings Committee (Posters)
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that a further large edition of the posters entitled "Don't" and "Bad Form in Dress" has been issued; and will he explain what is to become of the tailors and dressmakers who must be displaced if the advice given by the War Savings Committee, as set out in these posters, be followed?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, in view of the large unsatisfied demand for labour for purposes useful to the successful prosecution of the War, any saving of labour upon non-essential services is clearly in the public interest.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of these dressmakers are women of considerable age, that many of them are unmarried, and that they certainly could not work in munition shops? What does the right hon. Gentleman suppose they are to do—go to the workhouse?
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the poster entitled, "Do Not Use a Motor Car for Pleasure"; whether he is aware that in many cases this poster is 75 feet long by 6 feet broad; and, in view of the greatly increased price of paper, he can see his way to put a stop to this waste of public money?
The answer to the first and second parts of the question is in the negative. I have no reason to accept the allegation contained in the last part.
Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to say that these posters are not 75 feet long?
Railway Unification
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that in the view of competent authorities, including railway general managers, the complete unification and working of the railways as one system, as advocated by the Railway Nationalisation Society, with the consequent elimination of duplication that still prevails throughout the railway service, would result in a much larger annual saving than the £3,000,000 estimated as the proceds of the tax on railway tickets; and whether, in view of the abandonment of such tax, he will consider this means of raising additional revenue for national purposes?
The Prime Minister has asked me to reply to this question. The railways of Great Britain are being worked as one system, so far as practicable, at the present moment.
Duke of Albany and Duke of Cumberland
asked the Prime Minister (1) whether he is aware that the Bill for the removal of the effects on the barony of Cobham of an attainder in 1603, owing to the high treason and treachery of the holder of that peerage, for whose introduction His Majesty has been pleased to give directions, will be a measure whose passing through both Houses of Parliament will be effected by unusual and elaborate methods of procedure and technicalities which must be strictly observed; whether, having regard to the character of this measure, he will say why the time and energy of Parliament are to be employed by its consideration while the Government, who alone can in the present Session initiate legislation, are averse, in the interests of the time and energy of Parliament, to legislation for the deprivation of the Dukes of Albany and Cumberland, traitors and enemies of the Sovereign and people, of peerages whose retention by them is calculated to create bitterness and discontent in these countries, which are fighting for their existence against the comrades in arms of these traitorous persons; (2) whether he is aware that their Royal Highnesses the Dukes of Cumberland and Albany, now in arms against the Sovereign and people of these countries, while holding seven peerages between them, are under the provisions of the Act of Settlement in the line of succession to the Throne, and that His Royal Highness the Duke of Cumberland would, if the Salic Law prevailed in these countries, be the occupant of the Throne; whether, regard being had to the treason and treachery of these persons, steps will be taken to deprive them of honours whose retention is widely regarded as an outrage, and for their elimination from the line of succession to the Throne to which they are public enemies; and (3) on what grounds His Royal Highness the Duke of Albany, Prince of the United Kingdom, who has been expelled from the Order of the Garter for open and avowed treason in taking up arms against the Sovereign and the people of this Empire, has still been allowed to retain the honour of Knight Grand Cross of the Victorian Order, of which he can be deprived without legislation by exercise of the Royal prerogative on the action of responsible Ministers of the Crown; and whether, having regard to the indignation at the possession of one of the highest honours by a person fighting against these countries in a war in which so many loyal subjects of the Crown have sacrificed their lives for the country, immediate steps will be taken to deprive this traitorous person of this honour and dignity?
With regard to these questions I can add nothing to the answer given to the nine questions which my hon. and learned Friend has already put to me on this subject.
3rd Rhondda Welsh Regiment (Vaccination)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is aware that Private Owen Lewis, No. 34678, C company, 20th battalion, 3rd Rhondda Welsh Regiment, was tried for refusing vaccination by Major Broad, who when challenged was unable to produce any regulation authorising compulsory vaccination, and that Private Lewis thereupon demanded a general court-martial, and was put back to await the same; whether a soldier is liable to be tried in either way for this offence; and whether this soldier has during his nine months of service missed a parade drill, or a march, or shirked a single duty, or been punished for a single crime other than insisting on his legal right of exemption from vaccination and inoculation?
I have called for a report about this case.
Soldiers' Leave
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is aware that men serving with No. 3 Labour Company, Army Service Corps, No. 1 Forage Magazine, British Expeditionary Force, France, have been working continuously for twelve months without a break; and, as they were promised leave after six months' service, will he bring this matter to the attention of the proper authorities, in order that leave may be granted to those men?
I am not, of course, aware of the particular circumstances mentioned in the first part of the question. I do not think that any soldiers have been promised leave after six months' service, and, as I have before stated, I cannot undertake to correspond with the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief about leave for individual men or groups of men.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War what is the minimum amount of leave at present granted to a private of good character serving in this country?
I understand that, provided the exigencies of the Service permit, a private soldier of good character can usually obtain leave from Saturday till Sunday night.
War Medals
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the Victoria Cross is the only decoration confined to acts of valour or bravery in action; and whether the possibility of so amending the Royal Warrant as to confine the award of the new military medal, before it is first issued, to such acts will be considered?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and to the second part in the negative.
Naval and Military Services
Pensions and Grants
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is aware that Private R. Stewart, No. 131779, joined the Motor Transport branch of the Army Service Corps on the 12th October, 1915; that having before enlistment been giving 20s. per week to his mother, he allotted to her 3s. per week out of his pay and claimed the Government allowance for her; that up to the present his mother has not received a penny either of allotment or Government allowance, although a lengthy correspondence has been carried on by her friends with the War Office on the subject; and whether, in view of the fact that Mrs. Stewart and her husband are totally unable to earn anything, having been entirely dependent on their son, he will see that the money to which she is entitled is paid without further delay?
I am informed that an application for dependant's allowance, which also included the allotment, was completed on enlistment, but did not reach the paymaster. Instructions have been given for the allotment to be paid pending settlement of the question of a dependant's allowance. I regret there has been a mistake. It was a human error rather than the fault of the machinery.
Am I to understand that the arrears will be paid up immediately?
Yes; the matter is in course of rectification.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that hardship is frequently caused to soldiers and their dependants by the recall of their allowance and pension books, which are kept at the post office without any notice to the recipient of the pension or allowance, who is sometimes kept in ignorance and suspense for weeks; and whether he can secure that when a book is recalled the person concerned will receive notice of the recall and of the reason for it?
I do not think that such delays are of frequent occurrence under the improved procedure now in force, but I will have inquiry made into any individual case of complaint, if particulars are sent to me.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether it has been ascertained that the published statements made by the O'Conor Don in reference to the case of Mrs. Ward, mother of Private Ward, No. 4578, Connaught Rangers, were justified; and whether Mrs. Ward has now been awarded the full amount claimed and an immediate payment of £9 1s. 9d.?
I have not seen the published statements referred to, but the O'Conor Don has been good enough to write to me on this matter. Mrs. Ward's claim was one of some difficulty. It has now been dealt with by the Appeals Committee presided over by my right hon. Friend (Mr. Dickinson) in a manner which I hope will be satisfactory. I wrote to the O'Conor Don yesterday giving full information.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that Clause 3 in Army Form W 3271 is not sufficiently known, and that recruiting officers in many cases have not handed the form to men on attestation; and whether consideration will be given to cases which, through ignorance or inadvertence, do not come within the time of one month mentioned, seeing that hardship ensues to the innocent dependants?
I have not had corroboration of any alleged case of such failure on the part of recruiting officers, but consideration is given to any appeal on its merits.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether the widow and children of a soldier, who is discharged from the Army suffering from the effects of poison gas, and who after his discharge dies from the effects, are entitled to a pension, the man at the time of his death being in receipt of a pension?
Yes, Sir. Pension would be payable under the usual conditions.
German Prisoners of War
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if any allowances or pay are made to German prisoners of war interned in this country; and, if so, can he state what rate of pay is made to officers and privates; and if the money is provided by the Government or by whom?
Officers are allowed 4s. 6d. a day if of rank of captain or higher and 4s. a day if of lower rank. They pay for their food and clothing out of this. The 4s. 6d. and 4s. are paid from Army funds, but the money has to be refunded by Germany. Warrant officers, non-commissioned officers, and men receive no pay, and are clothed and fed at our expense.
When will that money be repaid by Germany?
At the end of the War.
Will Germany have anything?
Service Pattern Caps
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if a large quantity of caps of the flat Service pattern are held in store by the War Office at the present time; and whether it is proposed to adopt a new Service pattern cap; if so, what do they propose to do with the existing stock of caps?
There is no question of abolishing the Service pattern cap of which adequate stocks are held, but a limited supply of soft caps have been ordered for issue to men who, in the trenches, are provided with steel helmets. Except in these circumstances the ordinary Service pattern cap will continue to be used.
Budget Proposals
Cider Duty
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the tax on cider is to be levied at once on cider already made; and, if so, how is it proposed to arrive at the quantity in the casks, seeing that a measuring stick introduced into the cask would at once break the scum on the top of the cider and utterly destroy its keeping quality?
In cases where the duty on cider is chargeable it will be assessed upon the quantities delivered for sale, and there is no necessity, therefore, to take account of existing stocks.
Motor-Car Tax
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) whether he has received a representation from the Commercial Motor Users' Association regarding the incidence of the proposed increased motor taxes on commercial travellers using their cars for business purposes; and whether he can see his way to exempt these cars from the increased tax; and (2) whether he is aware that the Automobile Association section of the Special Constabulary contains the owners of 113 motor cars and 107 motor cycles, all of which are placed without any cost at the disposal of the police authorities; and whether he proposes to place the increased Motor Tax on the owners of these and similar cars which are doing public work?
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he has considered the inequalities which will be created by the proposed new scale of Motor-Car Duties, and particularly that owners of high-priced cars of less than sixteen-horse power will pay duty at double the existing rate, whereas owners of cheaper cars of more than sixteen-horse power will pay treble duty; if he is aware that in Ireland cheap cars of over sixteen horse-power are largely used by persons of moderate means for professional and business purposes, and that the trebling of the duty will compel many of them to lay up their cars; and if, having regard to the personal hardship and public inconvenience which will result, he will reconsider the scale of duties so that the trebling of the existing duties should apply only to cars above twenty-six horsepower?
All questions relating to the proposed increase in the Motor-Car Licence Duty are receiving my very careful attention.
Duties on Table Waters
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the Expert Committee, representing the manufacturers of table waters, to confer with him as to the best method of permanent machinery for the collection of the duties on table waters has yet been appointed?
I have not heard that the trade have actually selected their representatives, but I know that they have the matter in hand.
Exchequer Bonds (Post Office Applications)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the fact that in many cases the scrip for Exchequer Bonds applied for in January last through the Post Office is not yet available; that applicants are much annoyed at the delay; that such delay is not likely to encourage applications in the future; and can he, in the public interest, take any steps to remedy matters?
I am informed that such delay as has occurred in the issue of Post Office Exchequer Bonds and Bond Books was due to the difficulty of getting a sufficient supply printed and engraved at short notice. Arrears have, however, recently been rapidly reduced, and it is confidently expected that they will have been completely worked off by the middle of May. The total value of the Bonds sold through the Post Office up to the 8th April inclusive was £16,600,000, and the number of applications 496,000, and my hon. Friend will readily realise that the work of producing and delivering Bonds and Bond Books at a time when staffs are depleted and the demands for engraving exceptionally large has been very heavy.
Questions
Allies' Subjects (Deportation)
asked the Home Secretary how many Italian, Belgian, French, and Russian subjects, respectively, have been deported without trial since 1st January, 1916; whether he is aware that men of friendly alien nationality, of good character, and engaged in civil employments, have been suddenly arrested, imprisoned, and deported without being allowed any trial or legal assistance, and in some cases without having been allowed to communicate with friends; whether he will make some statement and publish any rules or give assurances which will mitigate the suspicions and sense of injustice which this procedure has caused; and whether, in view of the international esteem which has for generations been enjoyed by this country in granting right of asylum to foreigners, he will give instructions that the methods now adopted by the police will be given up or less severely enforced?
The numbers asked for by my hon. Friend in the first part of his question are eight Italians, thirty-five Belgians, twenty-eight French, and seven Russians. Of the French and Belgians, fifty-eight were cases of deserters or persons who were evading their military duties, in respect of whom the Belgian and French Governments had applied for the assistance referred to in my answer to my hon. Friend on the 16th March. As regards the rest of the question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which my predecessor gave to his questions on the 9th December last. I am aware of no grounds for taking any such action as is suggested by my hon. Friend.
Internment Orders
asked the Home Secretary (1) whether, in accordance with his promise to furnish in all cases as soon as the order for internment is issued a written statement on what grounds an internment order has been made, he has received a request from Miss Howsin to be furnished with such a statement; whether such statement has been furnished; if not, on what grounds it has been withheld; and (2) whether, following on his promise of 2nd March to furnish in writing to each person interned a statement showing on what grounds an internment order has been made, he has now communicated to every interned person not of enemy nationality the written statement giving the nature of his or her offence or suspicious circumstances?
A statement showing the grounds on which the Order has been made has been furnished to every person ordered to be interned under Regulation 14B of the Defence of the Realm Regulations since 2nd March. The promise to which my hon. Friend refers did not apply to cases in which representations against an internment Order had already been heard by the Advisory Committee and decided upon, and Miss Howsin has been informed accordingly. I am satisfied that she is well aware of the grounds on which the Order for her internment was made.
How long after the receipt of her letter was an answer in that sense returned to Miss Howsin? Was it not about three weeks?
I do not think that interval elapsed. It was a question of a few days, but I must ask for notice.
Will the right hon. Gentleman look into it, and see if there was not a very long delay?
Is this the squire's daughter?
Mercantile Marine (Recognition of Services)
asked the Prime Minister whether a ribbon decoration or other form of recognition will be given at the close of the War to officers and men of the merchant marine as a measure of acknowledgment of the services they have rendered and continue to render to the nation and Empire?
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the risks run by many of the officers and men of the mercantile marine in trading to these Islands from submarines and mines have been greater than those run by the crews of many war vessels during the War; that, while cases of special heroism are recognised, there is no medal for the courage and endurance which these officers and men have shown over a long period of time in their vital work; and whether the Government will consider the grant of a medal to all who have performed a certain length of service in ships trading to the United Kingdom, with clasps for longer periods?
The Government fully recognise the valuable services that are being rendered by the officers and seamen of the mercantile marine, and the question of the grant of some special mark of recognition of such services will be considered after the War.
Indian Labour (Importation)
asked the Prime Minister whether, seeing that the population of the Indian Empire alone exceeds 300,000,000 and that numbers of them have fought side by side with British troops, he will say why His Majesty's Government have failed to utilise Indian labour in this country for the period of the War only both for munition and agricultural work, thereby releasing men at home for military service; and whether the reason His Majesty's Government has not taken this step is the fear that some trade unions might raise objections to this course?
The Government of India have already been communicated with so far as skilled workers are concerned, and have replied that no skilled workmen can be spared, as they are all employed on munitions work in India. As regards the importation of men for agri- cultural work, the matter is one primarily for the Board of Agriculture. I understand, however, that while it might be possible to obtain labour from the agricultural classes, serious social and linguistic difficulties would be met with as regards their employment in this country.
Food Prices
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view that the price of food has since the War risen 49 per cent., largely due to spasmodic buying by Government Departments and for and on behalf of Allied Governments and also owing to shortage of labour at the docks in getting food ships cleared, will he say why the Government have yet taken no steps to regulate the price of home produce, seeing the hardships caused to the poor, especially old age pensioners and people with small fixed incomes, by the present inflated prices; and whether, in view that the Government's appeal to the people to eat less food, especially meat, is being generally ignored, will the Government now consider whether the time has arrived to put everyone on war rations?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given on Thursday of last week to a question asked by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Blackfriars Division of Glasgow. I do not think that the institution of a system of general rationing of food is at present desirable.
Members With the Forces
Attendance in Parliament
( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister whether the regulations relative to officers serving in His Majesty's Forces who have been elected Members of this House are not based on the constitutional right of a Member at all times to represent his constituency, and that no person has any power to prevent any Member from proceeding to this House or to control the duration of the time he remains here; whether he is aware that his own supporters serving at the front received notice to attend this House to support his Administration; whether this notice was sent out by the Chief Liberal Whip; and whether he will ask Lord Kitchener to notify the Commander-in-Chief in France that Members of this House are entitled to attend their Parliamentary duties without the permission of their commanding officer?
I have received no notice of that question.
I handed the notice to the Junior Whip at ten o'clock last night, and he undertook to hand it to the Prime Minister.
I should like some further notice.
Questions
Daylight Saving
( by Private Notice ) asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to the announcement that the French Chamber has voted unanimously in favour of the daylight saving proposal in order to save fuel and lighting, and whether he can make any statement as to the intention of His Majesty's Government to deal with this urgent matter?
My attention has been called to the announcement to which the hon. Member refers. I fear I can, add nothing at present to the statement I made in reply to the hon. Gentleman's question yesterday, that the matter was receiving attention.
Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind, in considering this matter, that one of the principal causes of opposition to this measure was the alleged difficulty which would arise owing to the disparity in clock time between France and this country, and therefore the whole of that argument will now fall to the ground?
Answers to Questions
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the dissatisfaction and confusion caused by the growing practice of some Ministers in answering collectively questions addressed to them by different Members, he will, as head of the Government, give instructions that henceforward each question shall receive a separate answer?
Oh, no; certainly not.
Destruction of British Song Birds
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the fact that British song birds are being killed and sold for food in West End shops in London; whether any and what steps are taken by the police to ascertain if such birds have been killed or sold in defiance of the law; and, if so, whether he will take measures to enforce the observance of the law and to prevent this destruction of bird life?
Careful inquiries have been made by the Metropolitan Police, and they have found no reason to think that, except in rare cases, song birds are being sold for food in contravention of the law. The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds are watchful to prevent such contraventions, but have not found evidence of more than one or two recent cases. Suitable action has been taken with regard to them. I sincerely trust that the barbarous practice of killing song birds for food will not take root in this country. The police have been, and are, very ready to take action whenever there is reason to think that illegalities have been committed.
Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to take any action against the Kitchen Committee of this House as to the larks which come within the menu in the dining room?
That does not come within my jurisdiction.
Prisoners' Sentences
asked the Home Secretary the average cost to the State per week of prisoners undergoing hard labour in British prisons; and whether, in order to effect economies in the public service, he will, under proper precautions, shorten the sentences of such prisoners as far as can safely be done?
If my hon. Friend will look at Appendix 13, Table B. of the Annual Report of the Prison Commissioners for last year, he will see that the net annual charge is about 11s. 9d. a week. If the value of prison labour is taken into account, the charge would be reduced by about one-fourth. I should not feel justified in recommending the remission of a prisoner's sentence merely to save the cost of his maintenance.
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to—
Finance (New Duties) Bill,
Education (Provision of Meals) (Ireland) Bill,
Imperial Institute (Management) Bill,
Pacific Islands Regulations (Validation) Bill,
Marriage (Scotland) Bill, without Amendment:
Local Government (Emergency Provisions) Bill, with Amendments.
Local Government (Emergency Provisions) Bill,
Lords Amendments to be considered upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 29.]
Orders of the Day
Cabinet Disagreement
Prime Minister's Statement
Easter Adjournment
I do not move the first Resolution which stands in my name—["That this House, at its rising this day, do adjourn until Tuesday, 2nd May."] There are still, I regret to say, material points of disagreement in the Cabinet, and if these points are not settled by agreement the result must be the break up of the Government. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] The Cabinet is united in believing that such an event would be a national disaster of the most formidable kind, and it is in the hope that it may be averted by a few days more of deliberation—
A few years.
—that I shall, in place of the Motion which stands on the Paper, move "That this House adjourn to-day until Tuesday next, 25th April," and I make that Motion.
There is a Royal Commission appointed for six o'clock to-day. Therefore I think the Motion should be in the form, "That this House, at its rising this day, do adjourn until Tuesday next."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House, at its rising this day, do adjourn until Tuesday next."—[ The Prime Minister. ]
I need hardly say that, while I very much regret under existing circumstances the delays that have occurred from day to day in the making of a statement by the Prime Minister on the important question of recruiting, I should be the last to suggest that time should not be given to enable further councils to take place to see whether an agreement may not be come to on this important question. As far as I am concerned, however regrettable the delay may be, I have merely risen to ask the Prime Minister whether I may assume that the Motion which I have on the Paper to-day will stand in the same relation to his statement as he promised before. I should be sorry to move that Resolution without knowing what was the policy of the Government. It might lead to a very false impression of the real view of the House, or of many Members in the House, if I moved it. I will ask the Prime Minister to allow me to move it to-morrow, or any other day subsequent to his announcement. Therefore, so far as I am concerned, I do not in any wise make any criticism upon the course taken by the Prime Minister, and I shall be satisfied if my position is maintained.
indicated assent.
May I ask whether the Debate on this Motion for the Adjournment until Tuesday next is limited to the extent of one hour?
There is no limit upon the Debate except the Eleven o'Clock Rule.
May I ask whether if there should be by any chance any further delay, a communication will be sent to every Member of the House to the effect that this matter would not come up on Tuesday next?
I think I can assure my right hon. Friend that there will be no further delay.
Can the Prime Minister say whether permission will be given to all officers to remain in the House?
That is a matter which does not rest with me at all.
Surely he has power to direct the Secretary of State for War to give instructions?
I think the position is that the General Officer Commanding at the front must say whether or not he requires their services.
Does not the Prime Minister now think that it is time that all officers who are Members should return to this House to give the House and the country the benefit of their advice?
It depends on whether they are required for military duty against the enemy.
May I ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that owing to the noise which occurred yesterday when hon. Members were leaving the House, a stage of the Finance (New Duties) Bill was taken without being discussed, the right hon. Gentleman intends to proceed this afternoon with the discussion of the remaining Bills that are on the Paper?
No, Sir.
Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether we shall have any Easter holiday at all?
You will have Good Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and Easter Monday.
Are we to assume that if we return on Tuesday there will be no further adjournment?
Oh, no.
That is what I wanted to know.
4.0 P.M.
I wish to take the opportunity of the Debate on the Adjournment to raise a question which, I think, is of very considerable importance to a large number of people in the country and in this House. I wish to call attention to a certain matter which relates to the working of the Local Control Board under the powers conferred upon it by Parliament. This Board was created by an Order in Council in June, 1915, under the Defence of the Realm (No. 3) Amendment Act, and I think the House will recall that it was created for certain very definite purposes connected with the War. I believe that practically all hon. Members of this House, and certainly I myself, looked upon the creation of this Control Board as a very necessary and wise step to take, and I actually go further and say that even now I think the existence of some such body is most desirable in the interests of the country at this critical time. This Board was set up and endowed with very extensive and drastic powers for the purpose of carrying out certain duties, but in the opinion of this House they were at least limited to the necessities created by the War. In the first Subsection of the first Section of the Bill which created this Board we find it stated as follows:—
"Where it appears… expedient for the purpose of the successful prosecution of the present War that the sale and supply of intoxicating liquor should be controlled by the State, on the ground that war material is being made, or loaded, or unloaded or dealt with in transit in the area or that men belonging to His Majesty's Naval or Military Forces are assembled in the area, His Majesty has power… to define the area and to apply to the area the regulations made in pursuance of this Act."
I believe that Parliament was quite genuinely well advised to give drastic powers to the Board for the purpose of carrying out the intentions which are indicated in that Sub-section, and I think we all equally understood that the powers were to be exercised solely where military necessities arose. We did not believe that any attempt to set up a complete system of temperance reform, which had already been rejected by this very Parliament, would be introduced by a side wind. Yet this is what I contend has to a very large extent been done. There is no doubt that the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Munitions had absolutely no intention of using this Board of Control for any purpose other than the carrying on of the War. The right hon. Gentleman indicated on several occasions that he had no ulterior purpose in favour of temperance legislation. On 29th April, 1915, he said in this House that his object was to provide for
"the removal of another obstacle in the way of the increase of output of munitions and armaments. I can assure the House that in approaching this question I have but one consideration in my mind—that is clearing the road in order to enable us to increase the output, which means life to this Empire."
Again, on the 11th May he said that it was not a great scheme of nationalisation; it was a proposal merely to obtain complete control in munitions and transport areas during the period of the War where necessary. The hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth), I gather, asked a question to which the right hon. Gentleman replied. The hon. Member asked him whether it was intended for that purpose alone, and his reply was that undoubtedly was the purpose. On the 6th May the right hon. Gentleman also said: —
"The Government would not proceed with anything which could be regarded as controversial."
What has taken place? How far have these intentions been falsified? To begin with, at the present moment something like two-thirds of the area of Great Britain has been scheduled, two-thirds, that is to say, of the area of the whole of this country and Wales and Scotland has come under the schedule as part of one or other of the areas. Put in another way, about 29,000,000 of the inhabitants of these two islands are under control. If you take the United Kingdom only, more than two-thirds of the inhabitants have been brought under the control of the Board. One of the principal grievances is that, in spite of the assurance that as little disturbance as possible would be caused to the inhabitants of these districts, all these areas apparently have been treated alike whether industrial, rural, or residential, which, of course, means that the amount of disturbance is very much greater than it need have been. The right hon. Gentleman on May 12th said:
"It is, of course, very desirable that there should be as little disturbance as possible."
I contend, and I think rightly, that the action of the Board in treating all areas alike, without any consideration for local conditions, is not the way to bring about that which the right hon. Gentleman said he desired. It can be shown in many cases that there has been no necessity to schedule the area at all, and in the far greater number of cases the extent of the area has been unnecessarily large, great blocks of rural districts having been brought within an area although having nothing whatever to do either with troops or the making of munitions. As showing how little need there was to take such drastic action in several cases, I should like to quote one or two opinions which were given by the right hon. Gentleman himself and others with regard to particular districts which have been scheduled. In April, 1915, the Minister of Munitions said, with regard to the Royal Arsenals:
"It should be stated that the men in the Royal Arsenals were putting forth their whole strength."
He quoted Portsmouth as a pretty fair example of the rest, but of course Portsmouth, Plymouth, and several districts of that kind were all scheduled, none the less. As regards Sheffield, the right hon. Gentleman stated that the reports to the Government from Sheffield were of a highly satisfactory character. Nevertheless, Sheffield was immediately scheduled. One case which, I think, is of extreme interest is that of Bristol, because it shows that, so far from care being taken to consult and be guided by local opinion, which was evidently the intention of the right hon. Gentleman—because on 10th May last year he said
"you cannot declare an area unless on the whole you have local sentiment behind you—"
we find that the great weight of local opinion was entirely against any action being taken. There is plenty of evidence to show how little necessity there was to take any action at all. The chief constable was asked his opinion. In October, 1914, the chief constable said, with regard to the closing of licensed houses earlier than usual, that there was no necessity for it. Again, in November, 1914, writting to the president of the trade association in Bristol, the chief constable said:
"In no city in the Kingdom are licensed houses so well conducted as they are in Bristol."
At the Brewster Sessions in February, 1915, the chairman said:
"They had in years past received satisfactory reports' but he did not think that in any case had they been better than the one which they had before them that morning."
Again in February, 1915, Mr. Justice Scrutton said that crime was exceedingly light. We therefore find that, in spite of the chief constable and these eminent authorities, no notice apparently was taken of local opinion. If you judge a place like Bristol by the convictions of drunkenness you are equally met by the same evidence of improvement before anything was done. The convictions in 1905 appear to have been 1,349. There was a steady fall till 1915, when they amounted to only 622. The convictions per 10,000 of the population were 24.79 in 1912, and they had descended to 20.12 in 1914. Yet, in spite of this remarkable improvement in the city of Bristol, we find it was scheduled and brought under the Board of Control in July, 1915. The same sort of thing has been going on in a great number of other areas, notably in Wiltshire. In the case of Salisbury I am told that twenty-one justices were present at the inquiry and twenty of them were opposed to any restrictions being imposed, but they were, nevertheless, imposed immediately after that inquiry was held. Another notable case is that of Manchester. In Manchester in 1913 there appeared to have been 9,053 convictions; in 1914 they had descended to 8,484, and in 1915 to 5,174. Yet Manchester was scheduled in February, 1916.
What are they to-day?
My figures do not go beyond 1915. I think that what I have said is quite sufficient to show that the Board of Control have taken action in a. somewhat promiscuous and haphazard way without being guided by local opinion and without being sufficiently guided by the necessities of the case. They have imposed the same kind of Orders in places of a totally different kind, and they have imposed them with a considerable amount of harshness, and I think almost vindictiveness in many cases. In order to consider what the effect of the action of the Board has been on several classes, I would point, firstly, to the case of the family brewer. I suppose that most people are agreed that the family brewer carries on a trade which, of all those connected with the sale of intoxicating liquor, is the last harmful. Yet the family brewer seems to have been harassed and bullied in the most extraordinary manner. To begin with, the condition was imposed that their vans must not leave their yards before noon, with the consequence that both men and horses have to stand still all the morning and are kept out till late in the evening after dark doing a trade which is very much better done by daylight. The next step was to refuse to allow the van driver or carrier to receive orders for payment. When the case was put before the Board of Control I am told that the chairman of the Board himself suggested that it did not impose any great hardship, because they could send another man with the driver to carry on the collection of money or orders. As a matter of fact, other men were taken on for this special purpose, at very considerable expense to the brewer— in some cases at an expense which swallowed up the bulk of the profit—and no sooner had this organisation been set up and special men been appointed to receive orders and to collect money than a further Order was made, on the 20th March, which only came into force last month, prohibiting either the collection of money or the solicitation of orders in any shape or form.
Nobody is allowed on behalf of the brewer to receive orders or money at the house of the customer, and the consequence is that the only way in which money can be collected or orders secured is by the attendance of the customer at the brewery, although he may live, as he often does, several miles away from it, and the only way in which money can be sent is either by taking it or dispatching it by post. The class of customer for whom these brewers cater consists of a class of people not accustomed to do business in that way. They are not accustomed to sending money by post, and, besides all the trouble which is thereby caused, there is involved the further expense of commission on the postal order and the sending it by post—an expense which, in the case of a small amount having to be remitted, represents a serious percentage of the total. The real truth is that the persecution of this particular form of trade is likely to result in transferring the trade, to a certain extent, to public-houses, which is far from being an improvement on the present system. It means that people who live at a distance from the brewery, instead of ordering what they require in the usual way, will be obliged to go to the nearest public-house, because they can there get more easily what they require and pay for it. A great many have informed me that men, who take a regular supply of beer daily for home consumption very much object, while they are away at work, to their wives going to the public-house to fetch the beer which has hitherto been delivered to them by the brewer. Therefore I suggest that the transfer of this particular kind of business from the brewery to the public-house is far from being in the national interest, and, what is more, I think it is quite inexcusable that the Board should have attacked a particular class of people in this vindictive and tyrannical spirit.
With regard to public-houses themselves, in the cases of large areas scheduled, where there are no troops or munition works, considerable hardship has been, created. The hours of business are limited; whereas they used to extend over 17 hours, they are now cut down to 5½. But the Licence Duty is not proportionately reduced. Surely, if the hours are so restricted, if they are reduced from 17 to 5½ it is only reasonable that a very large proportion of the Licence Duty should be taken on! But, as a matter of fact, I believe only one-quarter is refunded, and that is wholly inadequate, having regard to the loss of business which might reasonably be expected to result from the cutting down of the hours. But I think the principal grievance of which the public-houses complain is in connection with the competition of the Government canteens. I am told that in the Government canteens not only have they various advantages over the public-houses, but they do not strictly keep to the hours imposed on the public-houses. I am informed that they sell drink outside those hours, and that treating is allowed in canteens. That, I submit, is intolerable.
What does the hon. Member mean by "Government canteens"?
Canteens set up under the auspices of the Control Board, at places like Avonmouth.
Does the hon. Gentleman mean Army canteens—I want to be quite clear on this point?
They are canteens set up under the auspices of the Control Board itself in munition areas, and in many cases they really consist of houses taken over by the Board. I understand that a certain number of public-houses have been taken over by the Control Board and then run as canteens. The point is, of course, that the competition is unfair, and I hat any Regulations as regards the sale of alcoholic drinks which are imposed on public-houses ought in common fairness to be observed in places where the Government itself sells alcohol in any shape or form. As regards the other interested party—the brewer— his system of credit has been interfered with, and the principal grievance is that he cannot collect the money owing him at the public-house at all. In the case of a brewer who has a number of public-houses if he has money due from them to him he cannot go to the public-house and collect it, and unless the money is sent to the brewery there is apparently no means of getting it. On another point in regard to which I think that brewers might reasonably have been met is that they are refused any kind of representation at the inquiries which are held in various places.
Will the hon. Member mention a locality where that has taken place?
As a matter of fact I mentioned this to a member of the Control Board, and he told me that it was a fact that they did not allow the brewing interest to attend or have representatives at local inquiries. That was told me by an hon. Member of this House.
You had better state both sides of the case.
Very well, I will state what the hon. Member told me. I asked him whether it was the case that the trade was not allowed to be represented, and he replied, "Yes," adding that they excluded both extremes of opinion—they excluded the trade on the one hand, and the tee-total interest on the other. An hon. Member near me reminds me that the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden) is a member of the Board—
And is there not a brewer on the Board also?
Yes, I believe there is. It is true there is a brewer, and also two well-known prohibitionists, one of whom is a Member of this House, the Member for Blackburn, and the other president of the United Kingdom Alliance.
No!
Of course, I may be wrong. I am referring to the Rev. Henry Clark.
He has nothing to with that alliance.
Then I have been wrongly informed.
He was never chairman of it, nor did he hold any official position.
In any case, there is evidence that the Control Board has been working in one direction, and that is in the interest of the teetotal movement. I say that a Board endowed with the enormous powers given to this Board should be a body which is entirely impartial, judicial and discriminating, and it should carry out the spirit of the Act under which its powers were given to it. If the Board, constituted as this appears to be, is not carrying out those powers in a strictly judicial and impartial manner, then I think the interests involved should be given some form of appeal to which they may resort when the decisions of the Board are, in their opinion, unfair to themselves. I want to keep this question free from the question whether temperance is right or wrong. We have nothing to do with that on this oceasion. The temperance movement may be right or it may be wrong. That is not the point the House has to consider now. The fact remains that a complete system of temperance has been rejected by this House, and if it wishes now to alter its mind, if it wants complete temperance, then let it say so and proceed to legislate for it in the open light of day. But the House will not tolerate temperance being introduced by a side wind under the cloak of powers given for a totally different purpose.
A good deal might be done to mitigate many of the hardships which have been inflicted if some alterations were made in the way this Board exercises its powers. I would suggest that a good deal more consideration should be given to cases of compensation for definite loss; that some adequate representation of opinion of all kinds should be given at the inquiries, and that both sides, even to the extreme ends, should be allowed to be represented. I suggest there should be some modification of the no-credit system which now is extremely irritating, and, as far as I can see, to a great extent unnecessary. A restriction in the size of areas would go a good way to meet a grievance which appears to be a real one, and, above all, I suggest that absolutely no difference should be allowed in the rules which regulate the conduct of public-houses and of Government canteens. Finally, I have to suggest that this House whatever may be its intention or desire in regard to temperance reform should deal with such reform in the open light of day, and that even if the House is inclined and desirous to carry out complete temperance reform it should certainly not allow it to be done under the cloak of military necessity.
The Minister of Munitions promised two or three weeks ago that he would give us an early opportunity of debating this question. He said the time had come when there should be a Debate in the House on the subject. I have, therefore, very much pleasure in supporting what has fallen from the hon. Member for Windsor (Mr. J. Mason). The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions asked a question just now with regard to canteens established by the Munitions Board. I can give him some facts, especially in relation to that at Avonmouth Dock. There a canteen has been erected and equipped by the Central Control Board at a cost of something like £2,500, and at the dock gates there is posted up, in a prominent position, a board bearing the words. "To the Canteen. Open to the Public." In the "Brewing Trade Review" for March it was stated that a correspondent not employed in the docks—
"entered the canteen at 3.50, when, under the Control Board's restrictions, the sale of alcoholic liquor is forbidden on licensed premises or clubs. He was served with a half a pint of beer for three halfpence, or one halfpenny less than the usual local price. He after- wards treated another man with a drink notwithstanding the No-Treating Order which is in force in the area. At four o'clock in the afternoon (when the off-sale of alcoholic liquor is prohibited in the area) another man entered the canteen and order a pint of beer, which was put into a vessel for off consumption. When the beer was measured it was found to measure a pint and a noggin."
There were here three distinct breaches of the law for which a licensed victualler, if he had committed them, would have been liable to a penalty of £100, with the alternative of six months' hard labour—namely, selling at prohibited hours, permitting treating, and what is generally known as "the long pull." I can give my hon. Friend particulars with regard to that case. I should like also to supplement it by one or two extracts from opinions of various-people on the subject of the Central Control Board. These people are in different positions. The Chief Superintendent of the Ordnance Factories, Sir Frederick Donaldson, K.C.B., stated:
"There is no 'drink problem' as such in Woolwich."
That was at a conference with a deputation from the Central Control Board at "Woolwich on 23rd July, 1915, at which the opinion expressed by the majority of those present was that no further restriction was needed in any part of the area under discussion. Woolwich, since that opinion was expressed, has been included in a scheduled area. Colonel H. D. Thorold, commanding the 33rd Recruiting Area, in a letter to Chief Inspector Glenhill in October, 1914, regarding a resolution of the King's Cross Wesleyan Circuit to the Halifax Licensing Justices asking for the adoption of the Act curtailing the hours for the sale of intoxicants during the present War, said:
"As regards the thousands of men who have passed through my hands since the declaration of War, and have been under my command, I consider that the terms of the resolution are totally unnecessary and somewhat insulting to His Majesty's troops quartered in Halifax, who are gentlemen in every sense of the word There has been but one case of drunkenness-during that period and that occurred in Bradford."
In spite of that, Halifax has been included in a scheduled area. I might quote the opinions of the Chief Constable at Grimsby and of Judge Atherley Jones, recently a Member of this House, now the Recorder of Newcastle. The latter said:
"I feel justified in saying it would be a grossly unmerited slur to cast upon the great industrial community, either at Newcastle or elsewhere, to say that, except in a very small and limited proportion, they are guilty of what must be regarded as a great national evil, the vice of intemperance. I do not think, even in the present emergency, it would be wise or just to punish the many for the faults of the few."
In spite of that, Newcastle was scheduled under an Order dated 30th July, 1915 Colonel Willes, the chairman of the Hungerford Petty Session's, and the Chief Constable of Manchester also speak very strongly, yet Manchester is now included in a scheduled area. I say that the whole scheme of the Central Control Board is very un-English. It is not suited to our ideas as to the way in which we should be governed. It is a sort of Star Chamber which carries out its rules and orders without any reference whatever to either local opinion, military opinion, or public opinion. The result is that this great trade is being slowly bled to death by these various Orders which come out one after another and by the various Acts of Parliament that have been passed. I am perfectly certain that the majority of the Members of this House, when they consented to the Central Control Board being set up, had not the slightest idea how its powers would be used. I do not say that they have not done a great deal of good, and I will give them credit for that, but I would ask the hon. Member who will reply whether he does not think the time has come when there ought to be some inquiry into the whole of the management of the Central Control Board, and whether there could not be some arrangement whereby a Minister could answer questions here and be responsible to this House for the management of the Board, so that questions could be brought up with regard to the great grievances from which many loyal people who are paying very heavy taxation indeed are suffering at the present time? I do not wish to labour the case put by the hon. Member for Windsor, but there is the case of compensation. The allowance made under Section 17 of the Finance Act is only one-fourth of the Licence Duty That is entirely inadequate, considering the present hours and the hours that used to obtain. Instead of there being nineteen in the Metropolis and sixteen and seventeen in other districts, they are reduced in some places to five and a half and in others to five. That is a serious matter for men who have paid heavy Licence Duties, and who, in some cases, have given very considerable prices for monopoly value. The Minister of Munitions, when bringing in the Bill to deal with the question of compensation in April, 1915, said:
"We must see that people are not damaged and do not suffer in consequence of any action that is taken."
It is quite clear that people are suffering every day very seriously indeed by having their property ruined in the way in which it is being done at the present time. I should like to say a word upon the question of statistics. No doubt my hon. Friend will say that the Central Control Board have done a great deal in this direction, that there is a decreasing number of convictions for drunkenness, and that the munition factories are being kept in very much better order than before the Regulations came into force. I would point out to him that the Blue Book, "Licensing Statistics, 1914 (Cd. 7981)," contains the following passage:
"To avoid misconception, it should perhaps be repeated that a decrease in convictions for drunkenness may be due to all manner of causes, and does not necessarily, or even probably, indicate a decrease in drunkenness—still less in excessive drinking."
The number of convictions for drunkenness must largely depend upon the activity of the police. There is the very serious question, of which I have had experience at Hammersmith, that arises when a great deal more drinking goes on in the home. If people get drunk at home their friends put them to bed and nobody knows anything about it, but if they are found drunk in the streets the police take them before the magistrate. I do not think the plan of driving drinking underground is at all a good thing for the public. I also want to complain with regard to the procedure adopted by the Central Control Board of the way in which they go about their business before they schedule an area. The procedure is not followed by any other Government Department. Take the Department with which I am connected, namely, the Local Government Board. If there is any inquiry concerning a borough or board of guardians, or boundaries, it is held in public and people are allowed to appear by solicitor and counsel. Nothing of the sort is allowed by the Central Control Board. As stated by the hon. Member for Windsor, no parties are allowed to appear, yet businesses are entirely ruined, possibly on information that may be absolutely false, and apparently there is no possible way of appealing against the decision.
The trade always know when the Board are coming into an area, and always have an opportunity of meeting the representative.
But they do not know anything at all about the evidence upon which the Board comes to a decision, because they are not present during the inquiry and do not hear the trial. It is a rule in English law that a prisoner—these people are practically prisoners—should always hear the case made against him. That is what the licensed trade complain of. The Board can practically serve ten days' notice on any particular people, in any particular area, and close or take over a particular house. In addition to that they can treat mortgages as absolutely nonexistent. They can say, "We do not know anything about your mortgages or your financial arrangements at all. We are going to take this house over," and the individual tenant is left to get on as best he can. He is told that he can go, if he likes, to the Defence of the Realm Losses Commission, and that if he can make out anything like a case for compensation, he might get something from them. I can assure the House, as a lawyer, that it is sometimes very difficult to prove losses which are indirectly sustained in that way. It is sometimes decided that the loss is too remote, and the result is that a very heavy loss falls upon perfectly innocent people. Those whose businesses and premises are compulsorily acquired often have to wait an indefinite time before they can get compensation. I have an instance here of a house which was taken over two or three days before Christmas Day. It was taken over three days before the date on which the Central Control Board said they would take it over. They took over the stock at a valuation, while fixtures and improvements which the man had made to the extent of £11,000 or £12,000, were considered to be absolutely non est. The man was told that if he liked to go in to manage his own house he could get some compensation thereby. These examples show that there is a very genuine grievance felt by the trade in all its branches—brewers, licensed victuallers, family brewers and free trade houses— against the Central Control Board. I would, therefore, ask the Minister of Munitions to give us some hope that this matter will be dealt with in some way, in order to give the trade some satisfaction. If the Board say that their determination is to stamp out the liquor trade we should know where we are, but I take it that it has no such intention, because at the present moment the revenue is deriving enormous sums of money from this particular trade. While they are doing that they ought to give them fair play.
I have listened with very great interest to the speeches of the two hon. Members, and I think they have proved a great deal too much. First, they have sought to prove that there is greatly increased home drinking, and then they have sought to prove that there is a decreased sale of drink. They cannot have it both ways. If consumption is increased, there must be people who benefit by the increased sale. In the next place, they made a reflection on the public-house by saying there are some people who rather resent their wives and children going to the public-house. Why? The institution the two hon. Members have been defending is a perfectly legal trade, but they say that everybody, including the home brewer and the publican, is being ruined. Let us examine that for a moment. The expenditure upon drink has gone up by £17,500,000. I know that it is partly made up by additional taxation, but the brewer has lost nothing by the decreased sale of beer. Those who have gone into the matter say that they have had £5,000,000 extra allowances made upon the price taxed and the price of sale, so that the brewers as brewers have not been sacrificing anything. I believe there is a desire that fair play should be given. I do not want to do anything unfair, even in a matter of this kind. Hon. Members will remember that under the Defence of the Realm Act this thing was being done before the Central Control Board was appointed, and that when the men in the North—in the counties of Durham, Northumberland and Cumberland—were brought into this matter there was no noise made in this House and no noise made in the South. This shortening of hours was done under military orders. It is only when it is carried to the present extent that complaints are made.
One point made by the hon. Member for Windsor (Mr. J. Mason), which is worth examining, is that the areas are too large and that some of them are not proved to be necessary. We have had instances of this kind in the north, where in a small area the houses were called upon to close at 9 o'clock and there were other houses in the particular district, divided from them by a road, which were closed at 10. The people who had to close at 9 complained of the people who could remain open until 10. You should have equality of inconvenience and, as far as possible, you should not penalise certain districts in matters of this kind. When hon. Members speak upon the military question they speak of, all the country being involved, and say there is no part of the country which is not in some way serving or ministering to the welfare of our military forces, and we have a right to ask for equality of sacrifice all over the country. The whole country is deeply interested in the War being carried to a successful issue, and you have no right to impose upon the busy munition workers of one district a condition that you are not going to impose upon some others who are supposed to be less closely allied with the output of war material. I want to do no harm to the publican. He is in a trade which is perfectly legitimate, and we want to do the thing that is right with him, but I presume the public interest is the highest of all interests, and if the Public Control Board appointed under the Ministry of Munitions believes that efficiency and good time-keeping is sacrificed by the long hours of the public-house they are justified in imposing these conditions in the public interest and no other.
I quite agree with the hon. Member (Mr. Mason) that we have a right to discuss this thing, entirely apart from whether drinking is right or wrong, purely from the point of view of public interest. Whilst demanding restriction in the public interest I do not want to sacrifice unnecessarily other interests, but I think this House ought to stand by a Board which by its conduct, to my mind, so far as I understand it, has been exceedingly fair. The trade is represented on the Board and there have been allusions to prohibitionists. Men must be something. However you formed the Board you would have men of various opinions, even upon a question of this kind. But there has never been a meeting of that Board to consider restrictions but all classes have had an opportunity of attending and presenting memorials. The hon. Member (Sir W. Bull) said there was no chance of hearing the grounds of their decisions. The same thing applies to a magistrates' bench. When an application is made for a licence the magistrates do not give the ground of their decision. They retire from time to time in order that they may give a decision without stating their grounds. Manchester was mentioned by the hon. Member (Mr. Mason). It is a very recent case. I do not think he could have pointed out a more glaring justification of the action of the Board. Manchester was regarded as in a line with Bristol. Both were exceedingly low from the point of view of the number of convictions. The result has followed that since these restrictions in Manchester the number of convictions has fallen still further by 40 per cent. That is an enormous reduction. I shall be very pleased to send the hon. Member the figures. They appeared in the "Manchester Guardian," together with a chart of the fall two or three days ago. I mention them because they are public property.
The trade has borne tribute to the advantage of this reduction of hours. If I had known this discussion was going to be raised I could have provided excellent material from the ordinary publications of the trade, which has been exceedingly fair in this matter. I am not here in any way to put a thing that is unfair. They have been fair in stating that the conditions in such districts as the Elephant and Castle are an entire revolution compared with what they were before the reduction of hours. I believe the constitution of the Board has been as impartial as possible, and its operations have been fair. The inconvenience caused by it may have been great, but I think the cause for which they are asking the inconvenience is much greater than the inconvenience they are called upon to bear. I feel that the Board is justified and that the House should be very wary of unduly finding fault with it, as it has a very difficult task to perform. It has been stated by the hon. Member (Sir W. Bull) that compulsion is un-English and that Englishmen do not like being forced. When we talk about voluntaryism on these benches we do not get very much sympathy from certain Members. But if it is thought to be of sufficient interest for the welfare of the country that we shall compulsorily mobilise men for service it cannot be a bad thing to mobilise the public bodies of the country for a similar reason, and it is for that reason alone that I support the Control Board and the action it has taken.
It has been said that this Control Board is behaving in an extremely fair manner. Cases have been brought forward and complaint has been made by my two hon. Friends who spoke previously. A case was put before me the other day of a house which had been taken over in the Enfield area. The whole question of payment for the house has been hung up for a long time, and has been finally referred to a certain Commission. A letter has been received from that Commission to say that before their case can be heard, or any matter of that kind can be gone into, they must waive any legal right or claim which they have. That is very high-handed action indeed, and I do not think anyone would defend it. But the complaint against the Control Board is that it has gone far outside the instructions given to it when it was set up by legisation in Parliament. It was intended to deal with munition areas. It has gone far outside munition areas. It has scheduled the whole of Wales.
For men in the Services.
The wild hills and remote country places in Merioneth are not munition areas. One almost suspects that party influence has been brought to bear on the Board in scheduling areas of that kind. They have done other things. I saw the other day that Burton-on-Trent was scheduled to come under the Control Board. Burton-on-Trent is not a munition area, and no one can pretend that it is, unless it is considered that it becomes a munition area because there are a number of canteens in it. But that is rather a far-fetched argument. It is not a scandalous town. It is not noted for misbehaviour or drunkenness, or anything of that kind. It stands high. The convictions for drunkenness are very low. I am only putting this forward to show that the Board is going far outside the functions which were entrusted to it and far outside the undertaking given to the House by the Minister in charge of the Bill. It is very well known what has been going on. There has been a scheme pressed very strongly indeed by certain powerful Ministers in the Cabinet for State purchase of the whole of the licensed trade of the United Kingdom. It certainly looks as though these unlimited experiments in this direction have something to do with forwarding that scheme. Clearly these experiments are in many cases considerably depreciating the value of the property which some day or other it is proposed by a powerful section in the Ministry to make subject to State purchase. That is not honest. The licensed trade strongly suspects that action of this kind is being taken with an ulterior object. I have been absent for some time, having been otherwise engaged, but it is well known that the licensed trade has not made complaint. It has submitted without complaint to a very great deal of injustice and hardship. It has not put these hardships forward or complained of these injustices, because the plea has been put forward that this is all to the benefit of the country in the production of munitions and the greater efficiency of our munitions in war.
5.0 P.M.
But we are going far outside that now. The Control Board now is forwarding all manner of proposals and devices which have been advocated by members of political parties, and the time is coming when it will be clear to the public, as it is now becoming clear to many persons in the licensed trade, that the action of the Control Board is in direct violation of the party truce which has been proclaimed and has been loyally adhered to. I claim that the licensed trade has behaved with great patience and great loyalty during the whole time of the War. They have found their quota in taxation without complaint; they have found very large numbers of men, and where they had machinery or plant which was available for making munitions they have placed it at the disposal of the Government. They have submitted to these restrictions and injustices in many cases without complaint, because they do not wish to raise questions of controversy during the continuance of the War. I claim that the Control Board should confine its activities to the understanding on which it was set up. Its proceedings ought not to be secret. The inquiries which they hold should be open and public, so that persons who are interested and know the dictricts may state their opinions openly and publicly, and if public criticism is brought to bear, persons should not go secretly to the Board and state what they choose without contradiction. I am not aware that there has been any inquiry whatever at Burton-on-Trent. I cannot find who is the person who gave evidence that Burton should be included, or if any evidence was called. That is the kind of procedure which takes place. I raised another case the other day. Carlisle is not a munition area. If it could have been said that it was a munition area the case would have been complete for the Board to take some action. There are munition factories not very far from Carlisle, and on the border-line question they took over another district north. There is a good deal of scandal about the proceeding in that case which I will not now develop. Now they come to deal with Carlisle. Carlisle is not in Scotland, but it is in England. They come over the border to deal with Carlisle. Why do they want to deal with Carlisle? Simply to make an experiment. There are not many brewers there, and there are not many trade interests; therefore, they have what happens to be an area well separated from other areas in which they can make an experiment. This experiment is to be made at the public expense, and this at a time when they are not justified in spending very considerable sums of public money in making experiments. We want our money for war purposes and not for experiments in areas which are not munition areas. I do not make complaint of anything that is not a crying injustice. I do not want to raise controversy, but I claim on behalf of the licensed trade that those who are dealing with this question should not raise controversy or unduly harass, or commit any unjustifiable injustice upon, those with whom they are dealing.
After listening to some of my hon. Friends it seems to me that on certain points they are labouring under a misapprehension. I speak as a member of the Board which is now under discussion. I notice that some of my hon. Friends raised the question of compensation. The Board has nothing to do with compensation. There is another Government Committee, or Board, or Department, or whatever it may be called, that deals with the question of compensation; therefore, it is quite irrelevant that this particular point should be raised to-day. I intervene at this period in order that the time of the House may not be taken up by matters which ought not to be touched upon to-day. I had no idea that this particular Debate was coming on, and I confess that my thoughts, even while I was listening to the criticism levelled at the Board, would go elsewhere. We are going through such a very important period, a crisis really, that I find it very difficult to concentrate my mind on this subject. Although I am a member of the Board, I trust that I am not a fanatic. I am neither an excessive drinker nor am I a teetotaler. The composition of the Board has been questioned. I understand that there are two gentlemen on the Board who are teetotalers, and that there are two gentlemen who are connected with the licensed trade. It may or it may not be thought advisable or desirable to have interested parties on the Board. There are two schools of thought, one which says that people representing definite interests should be on the jury, and the other school of thought which says that people like myself, not generally holding with either side, but, I hope, representing the average citizen, and the average common sense, and with a desire to get ahead, should represent the Board. Be that as it may, I do not think that anybody is justified in attacking the Board for being fanatics, or teetotalers as a whole.
Oh!
The hon. Member disagrees. The view of some hon. Members is that we are trying to bring in teetotalism.
Hear, hear!
That is not so. When the Board takes as one of its cardinal principles that men should have the opportunity of getting liquid alcoholic refreshment, and when the Board merely try to regulate that, I do not think they should be charged in this way. Although the Board have been asked time after time to bring in total prohibition in certain areas, and although they have full power to do so, they have not yet once exercised their powers to the full. After that, it really does seem to me rather ridiculous to say that we are teetotalers, or that we are trying to bring in teetotalism. My hon. Friends mentioned various cases of hardship. It is very difficult when one has had a large number of conferences, and when one has visited different localities, to remember each particular instance. Not having been warned that these particular hardships or grievances were going to be brought up, one cannot deal with them specifically, and I would not venture to deal with them, but there are some, the circumstances connected with which are perfectly familiar to me. One hon. Gentleman mentioned a case where, according to him, a large proportion of the licensing justices who came to the local Conference said that restrictions were not needed. I think I am right in saying that that hon. Gentleman also stated that in the case of military necessity he felt that the Board was justified in acting. In this particular case we had gone into that area at the request of the military authorities, and we scheduled the area which the military authorities, both by letter and in writing, submitted that we should schedule. In another case we have teen told that the particular area should not have been scheduled, because it had been quoted as, on the whole, doing well in the way of production of munitions of war, using munitions in its widest sense, and that certain local opinion expressed at our conference was against the Board taking action. In that particular area the reports now are that things are very much better. I do not mean to say that before we went there this was an area which might be described as really black, but there was room for improvement. It is a most important area, and reports which have come to us from those very people who doubted the need of our going into that area now state that, so far as the prosecution of the War is concerned, and so far as the output of munitions or ships, as the case may be, are concerned, there is a very decided improvement. We had to take into consideration not only the opinion expressed at the conference of people who, as is shown to-day, did not really know what it was that we were after—people who are, perhaps, a little frightened of us, who suspect us, and think we are trying to bring in prohibition and fanatical teetotalism. After the district had been scheduled, and after our restrictions have been in force and they have seen the effect of those restrictions, they report to us that there is a great and a steady improvement in that area. Could there be a greater justification of the action of the Board?
Another point mentioned was the case of the family brewers, the family trade. That is one of the most difficult problems that we have had to deal with. I am not certain that the hon. Members who raised that particular grievance were eloquent in the condemnation of home drinking. I quite admit that in our attempt to check home drinking, which the Board disapprove of as much as anyone in this House, we have had to bring in restrictions which bear rather hard upon a certain section of the trade. We have met that section of the trade. We have told them what the particular problem was we were trying to deal with, and we have asked them to suggest an amendment of our restrictions that would enable us to check the evil without injuring them at the same time. The fact that we have not entirely been able to satisfy this section of the trade shows the exceeding difficulty there is in dealing with a problem like this without having a certain number of hardships. So far as this particular section of the trade is concerned, I understand that, owing to the restrictions in output in the country at large, there is quite a possibility that instead of sending their trade into private houses their trade may be bought by the other section of the trade. I do not know anything about that; it is merely a rumour which has reached me. The Board set before it from the very first as its prime object to increase the efficiency of this country, in order that we can prosecute the War as efficiently, as rapidly, and as successfully as possible.
made a remark which was not audible in the Reporters' Gallery.
My hon. Friend says he does not believe that.
I said the people do not believe you.
I am very sorry, but I suggest that the people, when they know more about the Board and the result of these restrictions, will come to the conclusion that the Board has done a very great deal in the successful prosecution of the War. Does the hon. Member really imagine that ordinary individuals like myself go out of our way to annoy people without provocation?
That is what has happened.
If we have done that, we have done it unwittingly. Speaking for myself, I may say that at a time like this I find it difficult to get through the whole of my work, and I have not time to go round deliberately trying to annoy people. People are apt to forget one point. They talk in general about drunkenness. When you are dealing with national efficiency you have to take not only the man who is blind drunk, but the man who drinks excessively without being in the gutter. There are two classes of people who drink. There is one man whom it is amazingly difficult to assist—that is, the man who when he gets up in the morning is determined to be blind drunk before he goes to bed. It is amazingly difficult to help that man, but you can help the man who does not get up with that intention, but who succumbs to temptation during the day owing to the frailty of human nature. He does not get blind drunk, but he drinks enough to diminish his efficiency, That man can be helped, and that is the man whom the Board have tried and have succeeded in assisting. It has been rather implied that we have gone into an area in order to make trouble and looking for trouble. I believe I am right in saying that we have gone into the different areas only at the request of one of the big Government Departments, either the War Office, the Admiralty, or the Ministry of Munitions. There must primâ facie be some sort of case before the Board approach any area. We do not merely go there of our own volition, looking for trouble. We have a conference. We notify the local people that we are going. We try to meet individually the military authorities, the representatives of labour, the representatives of trade unions, and representatives of the local administrative authorities, the licensing justices, and the chief constables. As I said to an hon. Friend of mine, who quoted me, it has been decided—the Board may have been wise or unwise, but they are very busy, and have a great deal of work to do—that at these conferences the Board will ask the two extremists—I do not use the word in an offensive sense—the people who are prejudiced, the teetotalers and representatives of the trade to meet, and to have every opportunity of meeting the Board. After all, we merely go to these conferences to get advice, and their advice very largely is bound to be biased one way or the other. At any rate, we give them every opportunity of meeting the Board.
Some hon. Members who have spoken have quoted particular expressions which were put forward at some of these local conferences. Again—it may be wise or unwise—the opinions expressed at these conferences are privileged, and therefore it is impossible for me to quote as answers to the quotations which have been put forward quotations from people who met us which would, I think, show that the state of opinion put before us was by no means unanimous. And proceeding in the direction which has been suggested to the House, the Board decided that it would not go in for teetotalism—that it would not go in for total prohibition. It decided, in the interests of efficiency, that if people were to drink—and we were all in favour of their drinking—it was better for the sake of efficiency that they should drink with their meals rather than drink in the early morning or late at night. Therefore, when hon. Members talk of the total number of hours as 5½ out of 17½, it would be equally fair to state the policy of the Board. The Board said that men should have an opportunity of drinking with the midday meal for 2½ hours. Is not that enough to satisfy the reasonable requirements of the average individual? They also said that in the evening there should be three hours during which they can drink with the evening meal, or that if during that period they ordered a drink with their meal, or before or during their meal, they could have an extra half-hour during which they could finish that drink.
The Board have tried to diminish or prevent home drinking. It is one of the most difficult problems to deal with. Some of the very hardships which have been put before us to-day are the result of their efforts in trying to diminish or prevent home drinking. It is very gratifying, as a member of the Board, not to have heard up to now a single word of criticism against our non-treating law. Almost everywhere we have been the non-treating order has met with approval. It was recommended originally to us by trade union representatives. They told us their members wanted to drink one or two drinks, but they did not want half a dozen drinks, and it was exceedingly difficult for them, without appearing to be churlish, to refuse to come back with others and drink two or three more glasses and then stand a drink themselves. I believe that this No-Treating Order has done as much almost as any Order to increase their efficiency.
Another point as to credit. We were told, and we found that it was perfectly true, that in certain areas it was the general custom of a man when he drew his wages to have to pay off a large amount of money which he owed to the publicans for drinks which he had had on credit during the week—that is to say, that by the time he got home he had made a serious inroad on the wages which he had drawn. It was in order to assist those cases, which were strongly represented to us as urgent by trade unionists, that we brought in the no-credit restriction. Another thing which the Board have had to do is to try to make the licensed victualler realise that he is really a licensed victualler and not merely a purveyor of alcohol. I do not believe in many cases that it is his fault that he has been driven to become a purveyor of alcohol. I believe that it was due to unwise legislation in the past. But we have tried to obtain the facilities for obtaining good, cheap food and enable a man to have tea, coffee, and breakfast in the morning before he goes to work, even allowing the publican to open earlier than he was allowed to open in normal times. When we have stopped the sale of alcohol we have allowed the publican to remain open for the sale of non-alcoholic drinks and for food. I regret that this discussion should have come up to-day, not because I do not want the subject discussed, but because if we had had the opportunity of waiting a little longer hon. Members would have seen the Report which the Board was going to publish and which is absolutely convincing, containing as it does overwhelming testimony from all classes of the community and people most interested in the prosecution of the War, which will, I believe, make the general public appreciate the work which the Board have done, and realise that we have done what we were set up to do, namely, to increase the efficiency of the people of this country.
The hon. Member for Plymouth (Major Astor) has defended very naturally the action of the Board of which he is a member. He has told the House that their principal object has been to increase the efficiency of the workers in this country. I want to bring to the attention of the hon. Member for Hoxton (Dr. Addison), as Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions, that there are cases in which the actual operation of the Control Board has been in exactly the opposite direction, and has definitely decreased the efficiency of the worker. The first point that I would like to make is, that the hon. Members who have just spoken said that they did not wish to do anything to prevent reasonable opportunities for drinking in moderation with meals. There, again, I shall be able to show the House that the exact effect of the regulations which has been imposed in certain districts is, owing to practically the complete paralysis of what is known as the home trade brewing, to prevent people all over the country who have never been drunkards and have never been immoderate drinkers from getting any supply whatever of the lightest possible and most harmless form of drink, namely, English ale, to consume with their meals.
The hon. Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. Wing) dealt with the action of the Liquor Control Board also. I was surprised to hear from him a complete condemnation of the whole system on which it was proceeding. He said that equality of inconvenience was what they recommended, and what they were going for. If we are to have equality of inconvenience, that was what the Minister of Munitions originally set out for when he said that he was going to regulate and control and practically prohibit altogether the consumption of alcohol in this country during the War. If that policy had been adopted we should have been debating a wholly different subject. If the hon. Member thinks that we ought to go in for equality of inconvenience, while many of us think that we ought to have equality of sacrifice, which is only a distinction without a difference, it would be a totally different matter. What I would point out is that, so far from equality of inconvenience, we have got the most glaring distinctions between district and district. We have rules applied to areas which are wholly inapplicable to the conditions in these areas, and which could never possibly have been thought out before being applied to these areas.
The hon. Member for Windsor (Mr. James Mason) complained that in the rules which are made all areas are treated alike. There is one cast-iron rule whether it is suitable to the inhabitants of the district and to their habits or not. As long as that is the case it is perfectly hopeless to expect that the operations of the Central Control Board will not meet with grave opposition and will not tend to inefficiency in carrying on the War, owing to the sense of wholly unwarranted grievance which does nothing whatever to contribute to the production of munitions or to the military necessities in any way whatever. So far as I know, the hon. Member for Hoxton is in no sense the parent of the Central Control Board. We had hoped to have the real parent here to hear a few home truths to-day as to how this is really operating in different parts of the country. It is a great pity that he is not able to be here to-day to hear how it is working out in different parts of the country. In the part of the country with which I want to deal, namely, the area of Wiltshire, it may be said of the Central Board that with the most virtuous intentions they aimed at the moon but they succeeded in hitting a crow. What they set out to do is exactly the opposite of what has happened. The hon. Member for Windsor quoted statistics for Bristol showing that there were 24 per 1,000 of the inhabitants convicted of drunkenness in 1912 and 20 per 1,000 in 1914. The hon. Member for Plymouth said that it was not the convictions for drunkenness which we should go by, but the cases of hard drinking which never come before the magistrates at all. My answer is that we have no other statistics. We must assume that however hard-headed the people of whom he has spoken, there must be occasional lapses where they will find themselves in trouble Those cases would be brought before the magistrate, and those are the only cases which we have to go on.
To show the blameless record of Wiltshire, I may point out that in the area of Wiltshire the percentage is from one-tenth to one-half of that which was given for Bristol. In a large part of my Constituency, in the borough of Marlborough and the county district of Marlborough, the convictions for drunkenness in 1915 were two per 10,000 of the inhabitants. That is one of the areas which are now included—though it is not within twenty miles of any munition works or of any large military area—in the operations of the Central Control Board. With regard to Wiltshire generally, the percentage varies from 1910, when it was eight, down to a little over five per 10,000 in 1912, and in 1914 it went up to 8.38. That was due to the action of the Government themselves, not the right hon. Gentleman's Department, but it was due to the foolish action of the War Office in sweeping into that area, where the hut camps were made, all the riff-raff of the population which was brought into that one area to construct these huts. They did not take the advice of competent engineers who told them what the result would be. Of course, with all this undesirable population, paid extravagant wages, working when they chose and idling when they chose, apparently under no control, and employed by contractors who were largely paid on the percentage basis, the result was that the percentages of drunkenness increased; but, since those operations have in a large measure been concluded, the percentage for Wiltshire has gone down to its previous level.
Tht hon. Member behind me spoke of the case of Salisbury. The hon. Member for Windsor said that in that case twenty justices out of twenty-four opposed the operation of the Central Control Board being extended to that area. I will read to the House what the Mayor of Salisbury said on the 29th of October last, when addressing a meeting: the nearest public-house or to the brewery itself. The second is, that the money must be sent to the brewery before the beer is dispatched.
In some cases that means a complete prohibition, because there is no public-house in the village at all, there is no money order post office nearer than three miles off, and at the end of a long day's work, hard as it is to be deprived entirely of their ale at an elderly age, as most of these agricultural labourers are—for they have been accustomed to it all their lives—it is still worse when they are asked to walk three miles, at the end of a hard day's work, to get a postal order to despatch to the brewery. Even if they do that, it is very doubtful whether the brewer would make delivery to a single customer in an isolated area. At the village of Avebury the convictions for drunkeness have been two per 10,000. The hon. Member can imagine what a problem such an area is for a fanatical teetotaler to deal with. The further Regulations say that the brewery company may not deliver any small casks unless the money is received by them before the ale is sent. Where a man lives three miles from a post office, it means that he has got to go a long journey to get the postal order, after a hard day's work. What have these people done to deserve this hardship? In Manningford Bruce, and other villages, the convictions for drunkenness, I think, were ten per 10,000—not half what they were in the Bristol area, which has already been referred to. They say: ber will agree. With regard to efficiency, here is a letter I have received from another village: interfere with. This is not a densely populated area, where men drink spirits and liquors of that kind, where you have got munition works, dockyards, and the rest of it, where all the men will be at their dinners within the time fixed by the Regulations, and where such an Order may be perfectly right. But surely the Central Control Board ought to have the intelligence to see that it is not absolutely necessary to have precisely the same Regulation all over the country, but that there ought to be some regard to the convenience and different avocations of the various populations.
We have heard the views of the hon. Member behind me, as to the farmers' point of view, in regard to market towns, and I would make a special appeal to the Central Control Board to see whether they cannot make exceptions in such cases as I have referred to. Where these Regulations are enforced in places almost twenty miles from any munitions works it almost makes one feel that the whole thing must be done simply by rule of thumb, or possibly there is something in the suggestion which has been made by hon. Members that the real object of the Central Control Board is something entirely different from that for which it was appointed. In Wiltshire we have got an area where beer and ale are the ordinary drink. It used to be brewed at home, but all that has gone. Home brewing is now done by the home-trade brewer, and you now seek to prevent the home-trade brewer from doing his business. In Somersetshire you have a large part of that county on the borders of Dorset and Wiltshire where cider is the ordinary drink. The House has just dealt with the question of cider, and it is only cider kept for sale which will be taxed at all. The cider brewed by the farmer which is given out gratis, as an addition to the farm labourers' wages, is not taxed. What is the effect? It means that the men, who are few in number and are in demand, and who on the border-line of Dorsetshire and of Wiltshire will simply say that they will go into Somerset, where there are none of these troublesome Regulations, and where they will get as much as they please of strong cider without any tax at all. You have areas absolutely adjoining where the rules laid down as lately as last week by the Government bring about the maximum of inequality and injustice as between different sections of the local population. As a representative of Wiltshire, I feel bound to come here and protest against this monstrous Regulation which includes the whole of the county of Wiltshire under the Central Control Board. There was not a particle of reason for it, and it is creating a feeling of injustice and resentment among the whole population, especially at a time when they are engaged in producing the necessary food for the country. You are dealing with oldish people, whose habits you seek to alter at the end of their lives, turning them into a teetotal populaton, while an unlimited consumption of cider may take place just over the border.
I think it very regrettable that we should have had an attack on the administration of the Central Control Board, because, in the first place, the hon. Members who have spoken against it, in my judgment, have not brought forward any facts which sufficiently supported the case they intended to make. In the second place, I have listened to the very interesting statement made by the hon. and gallant Gentleman who is a Member of the Central Control Board, and I do not think there can be any doubt whatever that the Board are actuated by the highest possible motives, and that they act solely in the public interest in seeking as far as possible to deal with difficult questions in the fairest possible manner. I am glad to have had the advantage of listening to the hon. and gallant Member, and I think it only right that those who take part in this Debate should acknowledge the spirt of the speech which he delivered. I am sure, speaking from my knowledge of what takes place in Scotland, that there is a large volume of opinion which supports the Orders issued by the Board, and there is strict enforcement of those Orders. I can assure him further that a very large body of opinion will welcome the Board of Control going a great deal further than it has gone in enforcing further restrictions. It may be suggested that that body of opinion only comes from those who hold teetotal principles. I should like at once to inform the House that that is not the case. There has been a very remarkable expression of opinion in Scotland in favour, for example, of the complete prohibition of the sale of spirits in Scotland from such public bodies as the corporation of Glasgow, the licensing magistrates of Glasgow, and the Chief Constables' Association of Scotland. No one will suggest that those bodies are representative of any particular temperance view. Many other public bodies I might mention are in favour rather of further action being taken than of any opposition to the restrictions already laid down. One cannot help feeling that the Board has been actuated in this matter by the view which was expressed in the House when the Act was passed, namely, that the interests of the country must come first. One or two hon. Members have sought to limit the restrictions or the action of the Board to a very limited area. May I remind them that in the Act itself the very widest words are used. They refer to the making of war material or to places where war material is being loaded or unloaded, or to men belonging to His Majesty's Naval or Military Services being assembled in any area. War material at the present time is a very wide term, and there are very few areas which could be excluded. We have only discovered recently that whisky itself is a very valuable war material, and distilleries have been taken over. You have in agricultural districts, as well as in urban districts, war material being produced and in a very large number of districts you have got men belonging to the Services assembled there. You have naval men coming into ports, or small harbours, which were never used for the purpose before, and in the country you have military detachments as well as in the large centres.
I had not intended to take part in this Debate, and my object in rising was to say a word with regard to our experiences in Scotland. I have the honour to hold a position under the Crown as Crown Prosecutor in Scotland, and I should like to mention to the House one or two facts which have come to my notice in that capacity. I do not want to express opinions. I think this is a matter which really ought to be decided and dealt with on facts. I can assure the House that at the present moment the need for the restrictions is a very real one. We cannot on public grounds disclose all the reasons. The hon. and gallant Member, who is a member of the Board, knows perfectly well that it would be undesirable to disclose publicly all the reasons which have actuated the Board in delimiting certain areas. Some of those reasons are military and some naval. There are many grounds upon which we require to protect our public services at the present time. I should like to say that the loss of life in men belonging to our Services, par- ticularly the naval Service, at our ports to-day, is a very lamentable feature due to the excessive consumption of alcohol. It is our duty in Scotland, instead of holding coroners' inquists, to deal at the Crown Office with cases of sudden deaths and suicides and accidents. I can assure hon. Members if they were to go through the papers, which it is my duty to go through, and examine the causes of death in many cases at our Courts at the present time, they would be appalled at the number of cases in which valuable lives have been lost through the excessive consumption of drink by men falling into the docks in the dark. [An HON. MEMBER: "In the dark?"] Yes, in the dark, which is, of course a risk, but it is a much greater risk to men under the influence of liquor than to other men. Then we have a great many cases of suicide as well. I do not want to weary the House, or to appear to put this on sentimental grounds, but let me give one illustration, and that is the case of the suicide of a young worker of John Brown and Co.'s shipbuilding yard on the Clyde. He was a young lad of eighteen who committed suicide, and when his body was recovered there was found in one of his pockets a piece of paper on which was written in pencil this letter to his mother:
With regard to the question of the nationalisation of the trade itself, it is the case that in one or two cases in Scotland licences have been taken over by the Board of Control. That is an experiment in policy, and as far as one can judge from what has happened in Arran, and from what took place in the Licensing Court there, it has not been a very successful one, I am bound to say. The licensing magistrates complained that the result of taking over the licences was to produce even a larger amount of drunkenness in the district. I, personally, never had much faith in that system which is being adopted by the Board. I can assure the hon. and gallant Member, and I hope the hon. Gentleman in charge will also make a note of the fact, that it is not a system which has commended itself in any degree to the people of Scotland, as he would have good reason to know if he followed the debates on the Temperance (Scotland) Bill. I do not propose to deal with the matter further than to say that we in Scotland appreciate very much the work that has been done by the Board, and we hope that they will see that their restrictions are fully enforced. There has been great difficulty in enforcing them in certain districts. I do not want to make a general charge against the trade, but I say from my knowledge at the Crown Office that there has been the greatest difficulty in enforcing treating restrictions in certain districts where the trade have opposed those particular restrictions, and convictions have been obtained again and again of the same parties for their refusal to accept the situation in the public interests. I sincerely hope that hon. Members interested in the trade will realise that this is a time when the country has a right to expect that they will co-operate in every way in securing the carrying out of these restrictions, and that anything done by the Board will be regarded as done in the interests of the nation and in order to meet a very clamant need throughout the country.
Before the House adjourns I desire to register my protest against the action of the Government in again postponing their statement with regard to the Air Service. The House will remember that some considerable time ago we had a debate in the House which occupied the whole day, and in order to avoid a Division the House consented to adjourn the Debate until, as was stated by the Government, the financial business had been disposed of. The financial business has been disposed of, and we have not yet had that day. A week or two ago we were promised a statement as to the policy of the Government before the House adjourned for Easter, and we are to-night to adjourn for Easter and we have not had any attempt whatever to keep that pledge that was made on behalf of the Government, and we have no statement on air policy. We have only had the answer to my hon. Friend the Member for East Herts (Mr. Billing) to the effect that one member of the Cabinet has been considering the matter, and preparing a report which he intended to present to the members of the Cabinet, and that in due course they would give it their consideration. I think it is time we complained of the utter self-complacency of the Government with regard to things generally, and more particularly as to their neglect of the Air Service. We are nearly two years at war, and even at this moment we have no brain working for the benefit of the Air Service. We were told many weeks ago, when Lord Derby and Lord Montagu were added to the Committee, that at last we had got men who were going to settle this question, and the Government asked for the confidence of the people, because they were going to give it their mature consideration. But Lord Derby and Lord Montagu have given up their work in despair. They recognised they had no power, and as business men they refused any longer to assist in the farce that was being played to pretend to the people that at last they were going, to deal with the Air Service.
6.0 P.M.
I complain and register my protest that once again this question is going to be postponed. It shows to me that the Government at this moment have not yet realised the importance of the air question. They have drifted on without any policy. They have relied upon their dummy guns to satisfy the anxiety of the people, and moved them about from town to town with guards around them, until the people themselves found out the fraud that was being perpetrated, and in one case I know of they themselves besieged the guns and the guard that was supposed to be defending them. That is the policy of the Government, and who can blame us if we refuse to take any responsibility for such an extraordinary state of affairs? Why, Sir, the neglect of the Air Service is the neglect of almost every Department! They have no foresight, and they have taken no precautions at all. We have not, despite what they tell us, supremacy in the air. Ask the officers back from the front whether it is true that we have control of the air or not. See what happens in this country with regard to raids. Does anyone believe we have any real aircraft defence in this country? Nothing of the kind. Nobody believes it, because it is not there, and yet this reorganisation was to be announced before we adjourned for Easter, and it has not yet even been considered by the Cabinet. There is postponement of this, as there has been postponement of so many other matters. Well, I think the Government are playing with this question. I think they have not really faced it up to the present time, and how the public can have confidence in them after the manner in which they have dealt with a vital question of this kind, I entirely fail to appreciate. I therefore again register my protest against the breach of faith—as it is—in regard to the statement of policy, and I shall raise the question again as soon as the House meets, or if my hon. Friend the hon. Member for East Herts raises it I shall certainly give him my support.
There is another matter which I desire to bring before my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary who represents the Munitions Department. I want to ask him why it is that our soldiers at the front are not yet, after twenty months of war, equipped with helmets for their protection? I need not dwell, I think, on the importance of the matter. The French Government calculate that since they equipped their forces with helmets to protect the heads of their soldiers from shrapnel the fatality cases have been reduced 20 per cent., and in the cases of wounds the percentage is very much higher. The whole of the French Army has for some time been equipped with these helmets—in fact, they are part and parcel at this moment of the equipment of their trained forces. I want to know why it is, after this long period, when we have had such experience of the equipment that is useful to defend the lives of our soldiers, that at this moment only an infinitesimal number of our men are equipped with helmets?
Who is responsible? At the battle of the Marne the French Government got the information as to the necessity for helmets. They knew, by the extraordinary number of head wounds, that something ought to be done to protect their soldiers in that respect. What did they do? Of course, as a business Government would do, they immediately gave orders for a prompt supply of helmets for the use of the French soldiers, and that is why for some months they have been fully equipped. We had the same experience at the battle of the Marne and right away through; no one would deny that. Yet, at this moment, no real effort has been, made to equip our soldiers with this protection. That is treating our soldiers very shabbily and very badly indeed. Who grudges money in this House, I want to know, to give the soldiers all that is necessary for their protection? The Government get their millions without a word, and they come down here, time after time, doubling, trebling, and quadrupling; and they get all the money they demand for the military. Not once has there been a vote of this House against their demands. They are responsible and we will hold them responsible for their conduct.
Royal Assent
Whereupon the Yeoman Usher of the Black Rod (Captain T. D. Butler), having come with a Message to attend the Lords Commissioners,
The House went, and, having returned,
Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to—
1. Finance (New Duties) Act, 1916.
2. Army (Annual) Act, 1916.
3. War Risks (Insurance by Trustees) Act, 1916.
4. Education (Provision of Meals) (Ireland) Act, 1916.
5. Imperial Institute (Management) Act, 1916.
6. Pacific Islands Regulations (Validation) Act, 1916.
7. Marriage (Scotland) Act, 1916.
8. Aberdeen Corporation Water Order Confirmation Act, 1916.
Question again proposed, "That this House, at its rising this day, do adjourn until Tuesday next."
( resuming ): When the business was interrupted I was asking the attention of the House to the fact that the French Army is fully equipped with helmets, and that the British Army is not so equipped. I was asking who was responsible for this delay in regard to our own soldiers, because no one would pretend that we have not got resources in this country larger than the French people possibly can have. There has thus been neglect on the part of someone and the consequent loss of thousands of lives. Who is responsible for this? We had, as I have pointed out, more than a year's experience of the necessity for these helmets. I want to know when the first orders were given for the supply of the helmets? I want to know exactly what are the functions of the Ministry of Munitions as distinct from the War Office? It is generally understood—I do not know whether the understanding is well-founded or not—that the Ministry of Munitions only orders munitions of war after that Department has been instructed, or requested, to do so by the War Office. I want a straight answer to that question. Is it the case that the Ministry of Munitions can order supplies for the troops at their own discretion, or must the Department await a request from the heads of the Army?
Another question I would like to put is: When was the first request made by the responsible heads of the Army for the supply of helmets? Was it after the battle of the Marne? Was it six months, or twelve months after when the first order was given by the heads of the Army to the Ministry of Munitions for a supply of helmets? So far as I have been able to ascertain the first inquiry that was sent out by the Ministry of Munitions for firms to quote for a supply of helmets was about the end of last year. Many firms I know received inquiries at that time as to whether they would be able to supply helmets, how many, and how short the time would be before the supply could be delivered. If that was the first inquiry made, I think we have a very strong case against somebody at the War Office, or at the Ministry of Munitions. How many helmets have been received up to the present time? Within the last week I see that very important firms of the highest standing in the City of London have been asked by much smaller men whether they would be willing to take any part in delivery. It seems to me extraordinary that after twenty months of war people are going round asking big firms to quote in regard to this matter. Is it true that only some 300,000 helmets have been sent out? If more, can we be told the number? I presume my hon. Friend who at present represents the Munitions Department will make a statement in regard to this, and I want particularly to know, if possible, when they made their inquiries, when they had their first delivery, when they expect to get the full delivery, and if orders have been given out up to the present time for the supply of helmets for every soldier where the helmets can be really effective? I hope I shall have a satisfactory reply to that point, because there is real anxiety outside this House. Ask any man who comes back from the front and who knows the value of the helmet, and you will discover that the soldiers are simply clamouring for them, because they see their comrades day by day wounded and dying because these helmets are not being supplied.
That is not true.
I am certain it is true. That is the whole misfortune about this matter. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman it is true.
If I may interrupt my right hon. Friend, may I say that I am informed that every man in the trenches has been supplied with a helmet now for many weeks.
That is not the information I have. Still, it is something that after many weeks, in a twenty-months' war, when helmets might have been produced in six weeks at the very longest, if orders had been given, that now for a few weeks our men in the trenches have been supplied with helmets. I hope it is so. I had a case mentioned to me the other day where the men were hoping that the helmets would soon arrive. But if the right hon. Gentleman says on authority, as representing the War Office, that for several weeks all the men in the trenches have been supplied with helmets, I, of course, must accept his statement, although I am very surprised to hear it. What about the men who are shortly going into the trenches? How many of them have been supplied?
May I ask the Under-Secretary for War whether his statement includes the men in the pioneer battalions, who are often in much more dangerous position even than the average man in the trenches? Does the statement of the right hon. Gentleman cover them? Have they all had helmets for some weeks past?
I think I must have notice of that question.
For the moment I will content myself with asking for a reply to the several questions I have put forward. I especially want to know where the responsibility is to be placed. I think the House is entitled to know who is responsible for this extraordinary, and up to this moment, unexplained delay in ordering something which any private soldier could have told the Government was of vital necessity to the soldier in his dangerous position. I would put a question to my hon. Friend (Dr. Addison) in a matter which in his Department is, perhaps, more intimately concerned than that of the Under-Secretary for War. That is, can he throw any light on the circumstances which led to the dismissal of the Board of Control of Institutes?
Hear, hear!
We have had a statement in the papers that the services of these gentlemen have been dispensed with. The Board of Control consisted of eminent men, including the hon. Baronet the Member for Doncaster (Sir C. Nicholson) who stands very high in the esteem of this House, and who works with industry and success in any matter with which he deals. Sir William Lever, a former member of this House, and perhaps in the first six business men of this country, who has given his time, and the fact of whose success showed—if it was doubted—that he is one of the most successful men of the day; Sir Richard Burbidge, the head of Harrod's, and others. These gentlemen gave up their time till one fine morning they were told there was no further use for them. I believe this message of dismissal was a very peremptory one. They had no previous notice of it. They had never received any complaint that they were not discharging their duties properly. When this Committee was appointed it was put forward and accepted by the House as a reply to the suggestions made as to the lack of business men in these matters. A great deal was made of the fact that it was a business Committee, and that it showed that the military element were not opposed to the civilian element in matters of administration at the War Office. Personally I know nothing of the facts of the case. I do not know the merits of the case I cannot judge of it. But I can express my surprise that the services of these gentlemen have been dispensed with, and also express the hope that my hon. Friend will be able to throw some light upon the matter, because there is naturally real anxiety as to why this important change has taken place. I understand that since their dismissal there has been some talk of a new Committee being formed, which would take over some of the duties. I think my right hon. Friend stated one day, in reply to a question in the House, that Sir William Lever had accepted a post on that Committee. Does he still adhere to that statement? My information, up to the time I got it, was that Sir William had not accepted. Has he accepted now? Has the hon. Member for Doncaster been invited to serve on this new Committee, and has he accepted? What about the other gentlemen on the old Committee? Have they been invited to join the new? These are points on which the House is fairly entitled to have a statement from the right hon. Gentleman.
Just one question more on a matter also in the administration of my right hon. Friend. Can he give the House, before we adjourn on Tuesday, any further information other than we have read in the newspapers with regard to General Townshend's position? I am sure we all read with the gravest concern this morning's announcement. A friend of mine had a letter only yesterday from the Forces going to the relief. In this letter complaint was made that important guns, which were required for proper success in regard to the relief, had not yet arrived. Is that true? Has the relieving Force all the guns they require, and all for which they ask? Is there any foundation for the complaint to which I refer? So far as I am concerned, I should like to say I do not agree with the statement that has been made from the Front Bench putting all the responsibility for the grave position of affairs on the Indian Government. I cannot conceive any important military advance being made without consultation with the Home Government. It is an extraordinary thing for a Minister to get up and say to this House that the Home Government had practically no knowledge of or took any responsibility in the matter. It is a very serious state of things indeed if these Expeditions can go on, and afterwards we are to blame the General-in-Command in the field or the Indian Government, where, it may be, the Home Government is responsible and must be responsible for adventures of this kind. Otherwise, we never know exactly where we are. When the proper time comes we will want to know what knowledge the Home Government had, and how much, of the advance towards Bagdad before it was really sanctioned by the commanding officer in Mesopotamia.
I will deal with the different points raised by my right hon. Friend which concern the Ministry of Munitions, and then I will reply to the points raised in connection with the Liquor Control Board. The procedure between the Ministry of Munitions and the War Office in regard to orders is, practically, this: A requisition is made upon the Ministry for the supply of a given munition. A specification and so on, of course, is available when the type of munition has been determined. Then there are the questions as to how many we should order to cover the risks of errors, difficulties of manufacture, and the provision of a margin of safety so that we shall be able to produce at the time required, and the number required. All these manufacturing considerations are, of course, entirely at the discretion of the Ministry of Munitions. The business proceeds from the time that the Department receives the requisition from the Army Council. With respect to helmets, I may say that from the early days of the War, I believe, a great many experiments have been conducted with different types of bullet-resisting helmets. I believe that the type which was first manufactured in this country was in itself of a better resisting-power that most of the helmets supplied to the French forces. The present type of helmet is an amended form of a very high quality steel, and the Ministry of Munitions was requisitioned for the supply of this helmet in the early days of November. The previous type, of which only an experimental number was required, was requisitioned in September.
Was that the first request you had in September?
That was the first requisition in September, 1915. The present type is the result of most elaborate and careful experiment, and, I believe, is unanimously appreciated as being the best bullet-resisting helmet in the field. The Ministry of Munitions very soon became acquainted with the circumstance that there were very few people in this country who could make this particular steel, and, although we did everything we possibly could, it was naturally some considerable time before large supplies came in; but I Am glad to say, and my right hon. Friend informed the House a short time ago, that the right hon. Baronet was not fully informed with respect to the supply that had been sent out. I do not, of course, know what the dispositions in the field are, but I am quite sure commanding officers have had enough helmets to provide every man in the trenches with one for some time past. The deliveries now are coming in exceedingly well, and in a very few weeks from now not only the men who are in the trenches, but the men who are likely to go into them, and even the men in this country, can have a helmet if they want it.
How long will that be?
I would rather not give the exact date.
I do not want to press it.
With respect to the points raised by some Members as to the work of the Liquor Control Board, I think after the remarks of the hon. and gallant Member for Plymouth (Major Astor), who is a member of the Board, there is not much left for me to say, as perhaps I might have thought there would have been at the beginning, because, although some Members describe the Board rather as a tyrannical institution, anxious to inflict by force teetotalism upon the community, and use even stronger expressions—I think, after the remarks of my hon. and gallant Friend, we could not mark him out, at least, as a tyrant in these matters—having had to wade through the vast mass of papers, more or less, which were concerned with the different proposals to schedule areas under the Control Board, I can, at all events, assure hon. Members they have not acted precipitately. I am sure the hon. and gallant Member for Plymouth did even less than justice to the inquiries, according to the mass of evidence they have furnished to the Ministry of Munitions when they have made a request to us that we should schedule an area. It is true that in some cases areas have been scheduled which nobody could fairly say are military places or places where munition work is carried on. The case of Wiltshire mentioned by both hon. Members opposite is a good case in point, but I may say, in the case of Wiltshire, the request that the area should be scheduled came to the Control Board from the military authorities, and I believe I am right in saying that in making their request the military authorities indicated the area they desired to be scheduled. Everyone must know that it is not a practical business to schedule an area and draw all kinds of sinuous lines in and out, picking out individual villages and lonely spots, but you have got to do the thing, as in all these matters, en bloc. You must either schedule this patch of county or that patch of county or draw an arbitrary line to a certain extent where the schedule is justifiable. It is quite impossible to operate in this matter at all without including in areas a number of places which nobody could say were either of military importance or were munition-producing centres. That follows from the fact that we have to schedule an area at all.
The hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Peto) gave us, I think I might almost call them, touching expressions of opinion from so-called residents in Wiltshire—agricultural labourers and others—and I am sure that the Control Board will give them the fullest consideration, but I may say that it does so happen that we have received a number of petitions, some of which are worded in a manner almost closely parallel with some of the instances mentioned by the hon. Member, and I own to having a certain amount of misgiving as to the preparing of some of them which are sent to us in reciting a similar grievance. Everybody must be very sorry, but we are in a state of war. These grievances are nothing in comparison with some of the grievances which the Ministry of Munitions has inflicted in the national interest on large businesses without a word of complaint. It is only a short time ago, for instance, that we entered into an arrangement to administer the business of practically all the whisky distillers in the country, producing millions of gallons of spirits in the ordinary conduct of their business, because we said, "It is necessary, in order to manufacture a certain material, to make use of your existing plant and staff, and we will employ you to manufacture this stuff." Of course, it meant taking over not only the distilleries which were suited to this particular process of manufacture, but others which also turned out spirit, and I must say that nothing struck me more throughout the whole of the negotiation than the patriotic, high-minded way in which the Ministry of Munitions was met in this matter by the distillers, although we were taking away from them by a stroke of the pen the whole of the goodwill of their business. [An HON. MEMBER: "No!"] It is all very well for the hon. Member to say "No!" but we were. We were absorbing their product and disposing of it as we thought fit in such proportions as the community might require, and it was, and it is, a serious disturbance—I put it no less than that—with goodwill and the trading habits of these great businesses, which was met without complaint, and I must say I hope myself they will be no losers by it in a commercial sense. But, putting a thing like the dislocation of the whole of a great industry against the complaints we have had this afternoon, I really think that some of the people who send those complaints to hon. Members forget that the nation is at war at all.
May I point out, with regard to the home-brewing trade and the comparison which the hon. Member has given of whisky distillers, that the Ministry of Munitions put some business in the place of the whisky distilleries closed, but the other people lose all their business without anything being substituted, and are not given compensation of any sort or kind?
With reference to the point raised by the hon. Member as to the home-brewing business, I find that if you are going to limit the production and consumption of beer in this area, it appeared to be necessary to deal with the home brewing trade. I do not pretend for a moment to understand the technicalities of the question, and I will take care to bring all the points mentioned by both hon. Members before the Control Board, and thoroughly explore and see if anything can be devised which will remove any unfair burden on this particular class of trade; but I think it is quite evident that if in an area you prohibit the public-houses from selling beer, except within stated hours, you cannot have the whole thing set at naught by allowing a person who sells beer to tout for orders at the people's homes to an unlimited extent, while at the same time you are preventing the publican from carrying on his ordinary business. That would be very inequitable, and it is quite obvious you have to deal with both sides of the question at the same time. Several cases were mentioned where it was allegd that the Control Board have not had sufficient inquiries. The House will be aware that on more than one occasion I have said here that the Ministry of Munitions have made it a rule for several months past to have specific evidence laid before us, before we sanction the scheduling of an area; that the licensed trade in the area has been consulted. I made that promise and kept it. Of course, everyone knows, and none better than the hon. Member, that it is not the business of the Ministry of Munitions to conduct those inquiries. Complaint has been made that when the Control Board heard the evidence of police, licensing magistrates, and other persons, they did not allow the licensed trade to come and cross-examine their witnesses. I must say I think it would be a most undesirable proceeding in every way. They have given generally, however, a separate hearing for the licensed trade, frequently the same afternoon or the same evening, or the next day, and I know that on many of these occasions the fullest opportunity is given for all the license organisations in the area to state their views, and I believe myself that they have been as fairly conducted as could be.
Let us take some of the instances mentioned by the hon. Member. Carlisle has been mentioned. Now, if there is a place in the whole of the Kingdom where the local Control Board ought to operate at all, it certainly would be in Carlisle, because within a very few miles of Carlisle there is, probably, the biggest munitions enterprise of the whole Kingdom. Thousands of labourers go in and out of Carlisle every day, and I am informed that it would be practically impossible to deal with the other areas around unless Carlisle was included. The case of Burton-on-Trent has also been referred to. The reason why Staffordshire was scheduled was that representations were made to the Control Board by the Home Office, the colliery owners, by the police, and by the owners of munition factories that there was a shortage of coal, and that many of the collieries were only working two full days a week. A considerable amount of short time was attributed to drink, and therefore, I think, that so far as we can diminish short time by the action of the Control Board it ought to be done. Various authorities invited the Control Board to take action on account of this shortage of coal, and that is the reason why Staffordshire was scheduled.
Another hon. Member made some very grave statements about canteens which I will certainly inquire into and probe to the bottom, but I cannot help thinking that there must be some serious misunderstanding with respect to what goes on in the canteens provided by the Minister of Munitions. As a matter of fact, throughout the whole country there are scarcely any canteens provided by the Minister of Munitions where beer is sold at all. There is no alcohol allowed inside the two classes of factories which were mentioned by the hon. Member, and therefore that shuts out his argument. In nearly all the new camps there is no beer sold at all, and I am wondering where the canteens are which have been referred to, and it was for that reason I asked the hon. Member to define what he meant by "canteen." The hon. Member for Hammersmith (Sir William Bull) mentioned a canteen where he said beer was sold at all times. I have inquired into that case, and I find that it is the type of beer which an hon. Member of this House was talking about a few days ago. An hon. Member said to me, "I hear that your Control Board is selling a new type of beer in the canteens, and if there is one thing more than another calculated to advertise ordinary beer and drive people to the public house, I hear it is your new brand of beer." I find it is that particular beer which was being sold in the canteen mentioned. Personally, I do not know much about beer, but I understand that this beer is a palatable beverage containing 2 per cent. of alcohol, and they allow this special brand of beer to be sold at any time without restriction. This particular canteen which seems to have offended so much is selling this particular brand, and no other beer is allowed to be sold in that canteen. I think my hon. Friend had better make a few further inquiries and go and sample that beer himself.
Is it quite digestible?
I have already told the hon. Baronet that I have had no experience myself in regard to beer. Reference was made to the Order of the Control Board limiting the sales taken upon, rounds to houses, which is sometimes described as the wheelbarrow trade, and so on. As a matter of fact, here are some statements produced at the inquiries in the towns referred to in which such people as the local stipendiary, the Chief Constable at Cardiff, and the Chairman of the Licensing Session gave their views, and all three of them say that it is futile to deal with the control of liquor in this area unless you make up your mind to deal effectively with the flagon trade. Some hon. Members, in describing the Control Board and the way it dealt with the brewing interest, surprised me not a little. The Board has been described as draining the trade to death, and it is said that its action has been vindictive and tryannous, and various other descriptions were given of its action. Of course, it must be a fact that if people drink less beer those who manufacture beer will sell less, and will suffer in consequence. I am not quite sure that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would give quite the same account of the state of depression which has been alleged,—in fact, one hon. Member rather let the cat out of the bag. He said that the State was getting a large revenue from this trade, whilst another hon. Member said it was being bled to death. At any rate, what has been said shows that there is a large amount being sold.
Not necessarily at a profit.
I am not going into that point, because the hon. Baronet is much more competent to deal with it than I am, but I should not have thought that this particular trade had a reputation for selling its goods without profit. The actual consumption has diminished, but I do not know whether the profits have fallen in any corresponding degree. I rather suspect it is not so. The sales of spirits have diminished in some localities to a considerable extent, but it does not necessarily follow that the profits from spirits have diminished. If what I have been told is correct, very considerable profits have been made by the owners of certain blends of whisky since the arrangement was made to take over their distilleries. It does not necessarily follow that because there has been a certain falling off in the sale that the amount of profit per gallon has diminished. On the contrary, it may have increased, because as the supply diminishes the price increases. I hold no special brief for the Control Board, but I do not think it is quite fair to make these charges against them because they are doing their duty, and it is a very onerous one. They are carrying out their duty as fairly as they can, and they are bound to make themselves unpopular.
7.0 P.M.
I do not think it is quite fair, seeing what happens throughout the whole of the country, for hon. Members to seize upon little odds-and-ends and bring them up here as if it was some national discredit. The Ministry of Munitions, not once or twice but scores of times, has approached great firms with a long-established goodwill and we have said to them, "You must stop your ordinary business; we want you to make this, which is something quite different to what you are making." I remember makers of agricultural machinery said to us, "What is going to become of our goodwill while the War lasts if you expect us to make these things? When the War is over we shall turn back to making reapers and rakes, and so forth, but where will our customers be then?" Their works are at our disposal for turning out shells, fuses, gun-carriages, and all the rest of it, for which they will have no use at the end of the War, but the goodwill of their business is in peril all the time, and we have not heard a word about that. I do not think it is very creditable in regard to this one great industry to put up these pettifogging complaints. When all has been done and said, we must consider the nation. If there is less waste of money the nation benefits. Nobody will deny that the man who spends money on more drink than he requires is wasting it. Nobody can deny that there has been a great diminution in drunkenness and it is a fair assumption that there has been a fall in the consumption of drink. Some hon. Members stated that all these statistics are of no value, and another hon. Member said that statistics are the only things you have got to rely upon. You cannot have it both ways, but still, let us look at these statistics. Take the case of London. I find that the number of convictions for drunkenness since the imposition of the Order for the last four weeks ending 10th October is 993 per week; the convictions for the last four weeks up to 26th March were 572. In Glasgow, for the first six months of 1915, the average was 522, and before the Board's Order the average was 481. For the last few weeks the number has been between 251 and 257, or a drop of nearly half. That must mean, on the whole, that less money is toeing spent in drink. These people are earning good wages, which means that they have got more money for other things, and I hope that they have got the good sense to lend some of it to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Whilst this Board should receive, and whilst I have no doubt that it is good for the Board that they should receive, healthy public criticism, still I think, seeing the singular success which I know has attended their efforts, they are entitled to our hearty support.
While I thoroughly appreciate the words which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kirkcaldy Burghs (Sir Henry Dalziel) used just now in connection with the attitude of the Admiralty and the Government towards the Air Services, I would rather like to allude to the Prime Minister's admission, in answer to my question this afternoon, that the whole organisation of the Air Service is wrong and rotten and needs drastic reform. I think that is almost what he admitted. He told us that he had requested Lord Curzon to inquire into the position of the Air Services—a sort of inspector—that he had done this, and that his report was so intensely unsatisfactory that drastic reforms were necessary. I think I can assume that I have not come to this House in vain. First of all, it more or less justifies my leaving the Service during the War. I now propose to leave this matter until Lord Curzon's Report has had the opportunity of sinking in. During the next week, if it does not sink in, I propose to raise the question again, and in even a more critical sense; but it is only reasonable that the Government should be given a few days before being asked to make their announcement. Unless some definite and satisfactory announcement is made before the end of next week, I propose to raise this question, and I shall ask all hon. Members who put the defence of this country in that position of importance which I am quite sure it demands to assist me.
In the meantime, I would crave the leniency of this House to make something in the nature of a personal explanation. I would also, as it is essentially a personal explanation, crave to be permitted to read it to the House. In the first instance, I noticed last week that the posters of our City were covered, I regret to say, with my name. Some of them stated it one way and some the other. Possibly I might read a letter which my solicitors wrote to the Admiralty and which will explain itself: With regard to some other papers who have seen fit to take up some other people's cudgels, I would like to give a brief personal explanation with respect to charges which appeared in a London newspaper affecting my personal honour. For the past three days an attempt has been made, by inaccuracy and innuendo, to discredit my character and to hold me up before the public as a man unworthy of credence and as a man who claims an authority which he is not entitled to exercise. I should have passed over all these allegations as mere personal abuse except for the charges which appeared to-day. I may say that since I first stood as a political candidate I have become used to this sort of thing. I have come to realise that any man who dares to attempt independently to enter public life, in answer to what he believes to be a call to duty and with a desire to do some real public service, is immediately met by the attack of inspired newspapers and by the allegations of interested parties. In my view, I stand for something even greater than my personal reputation, but my reputation is essential to my work, and as long as I retain the confidence of my Constituents and remain a Member of this House I will not allow my character to be besmirched without standing up in this House and answering my traducers.
I do not object to hard hitting. I hit hard myself. But I protest that it is un-English to attempt to injure a man by insulting, domestic innuendoes which are as false as they are cruel. If these attacks had been confined to attempts to discredit me merely because I had lived a life of labour instead of a life of leisure, I need hardly say that I should not have answered them. But to-day there appears in this newspaper a direct challenge to my honour, a rehash of the scurrilous allegations which were circulated throughout my Constituency during my recent election. During my contest in East Herts I was assailed by my opponents with a bitterness and a wealth of scandalous invention hardly to be believed. I was told that "it was all part of the game," whatever that game may be, and having defeated those who played it, I felt that I could afford to ignore the scandal and the abuse. At that time a letter passed between a prominent Minister of the Crown and a leading party organiser, the concluding sentence of which was as follows: I am glad to say that the assistance which the right hon. Gentleman was able to give was not successful. [HON. MEMBERS: "Name!"] Is it fitting that I should use it? The writer of this letter was Sir John Boraston, and the receiver of the letter was Mr. Arthur James Balfour. With reference to the night-flying machine which I designed, I challenge the writer of this article to produce the evidence with which he says the Admiralty supplied him, and if he can produce such a document then I challenge the Admiralty to prove it. I am accused of stating that the Admiralty took twelve months to build this machine. I never said—I never could have said—anything of the kind, for the simple reason that the machine was built out of my own pocket at a cost of about £6,000. It is not until the last few weeks that the Admiralty have at last recognised the possibilities of this machine for fighting Zeppelins by night, and have eventually decided to build to my design. With regard to Pemberton-Billing, Limited, prior to the outbreak of war I had been for many years endeavouring to foster aviation in this country at the cost of thousands of pounds. At the outbreak of war I possessed what would then have been considered quite a large factory for the production of seaplanes and aeroplanes, but appreciating the scarcity of pilots I thought that I could serve my country better as a pilot than as a profit-making constructor. I therefore volunteered as a pilot and joined the Royal Naval Air Service, and closed the factory. Later the Admiralty decided that my factory was of such value that it was in the interests of the Service that its facilities should be employed. It was therefore opened up and machines to my design were ordered. On deciding to enter this House I requested the Admiralty to take over the whole business at their valuation, or, failing that, to work it on a 10 per cent. basis for the duration of the War, so that I need have no pecuniary interest, directly or indirectly, in any aerial undertakings in this country so long as I remain a Member of this House. Negotiations are now in progress, and I hope to be able to make a statement at an early date.
Perhaps the most serious of these newspaper accusations affect members of the Government. I have asserted, and I repeat, that the hon. Member for East Birmingham (Mr. Steel-Maitland) stated to me in his own house that if I stood as an independent candidate the Government would have nothing to do with me, but if I was prepared to wait I should in due course be found a safe seat. I may state, I trust in the hearing of the hon. Gentleman, that so far as the name of the Colonial Secretary (Mr. Bonar Law) has been brought into this, I repeat that in a conversation which took place in the room of the Chief Liberal Whip in this House and in his presence I declared my intention to enter this House in any event, and if I could not get in in any other way to fight the joint party machine as an independent candidate on the Air Service. I trust that both right hon. Gentlemen are here, as I have given them private notice of my intention to make this statement. There is only one other point, and it is in regard to the allegation made against my Service record. Throughout the constituency that I fought, and throughout Wimbledon during the last few days, hired speakers of the party machine have stood up in the streets and halls and have said: "This man was flung out of the Air Service. He is a waster. He is no good in the House, or out of it. He has never flown an aeroplane. He has never done anything. He is a liar." I say that, under the circumstances, I have been absolutely driven to take the step I now propose to take, and that is to read to the House a letter which I am glad to say I have now eventually persuaded my late commander-in-chief to give me permission to read to clear my honour, a letter which he wrote to me on leaving the Service. The letter reads as follows:
"Air Department,
Admiralty,
23rd December, 1915.
Dear Pemberton-Billing,
I am sorry indeed to receive your application to retire from the Naval Air Service, as I always considered you as one of the 'star turns' for any air raid that might be required to be organised.
Had another attack on the Zeppelin shed on Lake Constance been required, you were the man to undertake the job.
In confidence, I may tell you that Mr. Churchill and Lord Fisher were very pleased with the way you organised the Lake Constance raid, and instructed me to note your name for advancement.
I believe the French Government were also pleased with the bombs dropped on Zeppelin factory.
If any question of your promotion arises, or any honour is suggested for your war services, I will do my best to press your claims on the authorities.
With sincere regret on your decision to leave the Air Service, and with all good wishes for the future,
I remain,
Yours very sincerely,
MURRAY F. SUETER."
I have to thank the hon. Member for his courtesy in sending me word that he proposed to refer to me in the course of his statement. The hon. Member stated that in a conversation with me at my house I undertake if he waited to find him a safe and comfortable seat. The hon. Member met me at my house. He informed me on that occasion that he did not wish to attack the Admiralty or the Air Service, but I absolutely deny categorically that I ever either undertook or promised to find or gave him any expectation whatever of my finding him a safe and comfortable seat if he did not attack the Government. I am afraid that I cannot put it more plainly than I have done. Perhaps in this connection I ought to read to the House the passage from the speech which, I think, was the origin of this particular point. I had a copy of the speech sent across to me so as to make quite sure of the reference. The speech was delivered at Waltham Cross on Tuesday, 29th February, and it contained these words:
"I think I am right in saying that those people who select candidates for the House of Commons—and should I be too hard in saying foist them on constituents and constituencies, whether they like them or not."
This may appear to be some reflection on Members of this House who have gone through that operation:
"Simply informing people that there is the party machine behind—'you will kindly give him your vote,' and the 'kindly' has a ring in it more compelling than polite. I must apologise for alluding to this subject, but I was considered, according to Mr. Steel-Maitland, quite a promising young person for political life, and I was told that if I would agree to refrain—this was quite unofficial, I assure you no politician would be so foolish as to commit himself — from any active attack on the powers that are, I should be found in due course a safe and comfortable seat."
That is all I need quote from the speech. I am sure the House will agree I cannot deal with that particular point more directly than I have done. With regard to the reference to the Secretary for the Colonies, I can only say this. The right hon. Gentleman absolutely adheres to his denial of the utterances attributed to him in the room of the Chief Liberal Whip. I think the hon. Member meant the Chief Unionist Whip. It must have been a slip of the tongue on his part to have said it was the office of the Chief Liberal Whip.
Lord Edmund Talbot.
Yes, the Chief Unionist Whip. My right hon. Friend has authorised me to state that before making his denial he refreshed his memory by consulting the Chief Unionist Whip as to what exactly occurred. I do not wish to detain the House further. That is all I have to say on the point.
I understood the hon. Member for East Herts (Mr. Billing) to say the conversation took place in the office of the Chief Liberal Whip. I wish it to be made quite clear it was not in that office. I did not have the pleasure of seeing the hon. Member until the day he took his seat in this House.
I am going to refer to a more dull, although possibly a more important, topic than we have been discussing for the last few minutes. The whole basis of the controversy which, we are informed by the Prime Minister, is shaking the stability of the present Government is as to the number of men fit for service in the British Army, and the point which I want to bring before the House is whether the figures which have been submitted to the Cabinet include or exclude the number of medically unfit men at present in the Army. I do not know whether all the Members of the House understand the process which a commanding officer has to go through if he finds that those responsible for recruiting have sent down to his unit a man who is medically unfit. Although I have no desire to detain the House a single moment, perhaps I may outline that process. Under the group, or Derby, system of calling men up for service in the Army a man, when his group is called up, has to report to a certain recruiting office and there is examined theoretically by three medical officers who constitute a board, before which he is supposed to appear. If he is passed as fit he is sent, down to the unit which he has joined. In the units to which I am referring tonight there is a Divisional Order—a very wise one—that directly these recruits join, or rather on the day after they join their unit, they must be medically examined by the regimental medical officer. Therefore, if they are passed by the board to-day and join their unit to-morrow, they have again to be examined the day after, this time by the regimental officer, who will have to deal with them until such time as they proceed oversea.
The units to which I am referring are draft-producing units—reserve battalions—third-line units of the Territorial Force. The regimental medical officer examines a man. If he finds him unfit that does not mean by any means that there is a prospect of getting him discharged from the Army. The medical officer has to put him on an Army Form—B 204—which has to be filled up in duplicate with the man's age, weight, waist measurement, and a hundred other details. This form is then forwarded for consideration by the senior medical officer, who has to decide if the man shall be brought before a medical board, and if he decides that he shall be and the board find that the man is medically unfit, then the medical officer marks the form with a recommendation for discharge. That form has to go to the Divisional General. The whole process takes many weeks. Perhaps all this routine is necessary. I am not going to say that a great deal of it is unnecessary. There must be a certain amount of delay and careful consideration before a man is permitted to leave the Army even if he be medically unfit. That, in my opinion, is most essential. But fairly simple though the system appears to be, hitches occur. I think I omitted to mention that after the man appears before the first medical board he has to go before the medical inspector of recruits, who has to mark his paper for discharge or otherwise.
In one case a man had got as far as the medical inspector of recruits, and it had taken him eight weeks or two months to reach that stage. The regimental officer, on the second day after he joined his unit, marked him as unfit, and the medical inspector of recruits thereupon declared it was a case for the Travelling Medical Board. The senior medical officer of the regiment was asked to send the man before the Travelling Medical Board, and the reply came back that, as the man had only served two months and as the Travelling Medical Board would consider no case unless the man had served six months, he could not be sent before such a board. Consequently the man must remain in the Army, being fed and drawing his pay. In this case the matter came up again after three months, and the man went before the medical inspector of recruits, and on that occasion his paper was marked "medically unfit." That occurred six weeks ago. The man still remains with the regiment. He has not yet been discharged. This is a concrete case illustrating the question I am raising. It is not a small question. It is not a question affecting a few men. To my mind it is an extremely vital questions concerning thousands of men, and just to give the House an example—just to give some idea of the number of men affected—I will say that in one regiment as to which I have been making inquiries in one battalion which 1,200 recruits have joined since Christmas, no fewer than 240 men out of the 1,200 are marked "medically unfit." Of the 240 men 52 are marked unfit for any sort of service in the Army. That means that they are unfit for light clerical duty in the Army, unfit for Home service, for garrison duty, for pioneer battalions—not the least bit of use at all. We have people opposed to any form of compulsion for producing soldiers at this great crisis in our history. When men are wanted in civil occupations, what is the good of keeping men in this condition in khaki? Why not send them back to their work as civil clerks, after they have been reported by practically the whole medical profession in the Army as being utterly unsuited to be put in khaki, or to live under canvas, or to undergo the ordinary hard life of the British Tommy?
The other day in one battalion next door to where I am stationed fifty men were sent forward for service in the 2nd battalion of the regiment, and out of them twelve were rejected. The same battalion had to send forward another draft, and picked out fifty-eight men in the hope of getting fifty at least suitable, but twenty-one were rejected as medically unfit, and fourteen of the twenty-one were marked as permanently unfit for military service. In another battalion in the same locality 538 recruits joined last month. Out of these, I am informed by the medical officer, 102 in his opinion are permanently unfit for military service. Of the 102 men twenty-three are suffering from valvular disease and other forms of heart disease, eleven are suffering from hernia or rupture. Twenty-seven have got hammer toes or flat feet, and cannot march, and are therefore of not much use in an Army, forty-one are suffering from varicose veins, and two of these are mentally deficient, one being positively a gibbering idiot. Again, there are fifty men, in addition to the 102, whose teeth are in such a bad state that the medical officer says they will not be able to do much training for at least three months, until they have been fitted at the country's expense with new sets of teeth. In addition, there are six suffering from another disease which will incapacitate them for many months, if not permanently.
I can anticipate what my right hon. Friend is going to say if he condescends to answer my point. He is going to tell us that the medical officers classify these men. That is true. They do eventually put the men in classes. For instance, class ( a ) means a man is fit to go into hard training, and may go abroad with a draft in three or four months. Class ( b ) means that a man may be fit, and they are quite ready to go on teaching him in the hope that he will become fit. Class ( c ), if my memory serves me correctly, means that a man is fit for garrison duty abroad. Class ( d ) means that he is fit for Home service only. Class ( e ) is a new category which has been introduced in the last few weeks, and means that he is fit for digging—fit for a pioneer battalion. I do not know whether hon. Members have had much experience in digging, but, personally, I have found that several hours of it is about the hardest job a soldier can possibly do. Digging may be very safe, especially at home, but it is very hard work, and I cannot understand how a man can be fit for digging if he is not fit entirely for general service. If a man is a strong buck navvy and can march five miles and then dig all day, he is the man we want in the Army to serve and do the full duties of a soldier. When this classification is completed what happens? We get a man marked for digging, but we have no instructions where he is to go. If we get him marked "fit" we know what to do with him. If marked "fit for garrison duty abroad," I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to tell me has there been a single man in the British Army yet who has been marked by the Medical Board as fit for garrison duty abroad who has actually been sent abroad for garrison duty? If he can tell me that even one man has succeeded in doing what he has been marked for by the Medical Board, I should be very glad to hear of it. I have not succeeded in getting any man marked fit for garrison duty abroad out of my battalion up to the present.
Finally, "F" class are marked for discharge. It is really that class which makes me raise my voice in the House to-day.
I have not spoken since the beginning of the War, except for about five minutes, because I believe that if a man is a soldier, even if they are as unfortunate as I am, who come under I do not know it is digging or some other category, but who have come under the ban of the Medical Service and are not allowed to go abroad, and that if a man is in uniform he should, as far as possible, not raise his voice to criticise anything in the Army. Although I am appearing to criticise to-night, I am not criticising the military heads of the Army, but the lack of organisation of the medical part of the Army and the delay which is occurring, and I am endeavouring, by pointing out these matters to the House, to insure that men who are medically unfit shall be returned at once to civil life, where they can take the place of other men, who can come into the Army and do the job there. We do not want to keep clerks suffering perpetually from colds in their noses sitting in huts, where they are not of the least use to anybody, because they are not fit, when they might very well be sitting in an office and doing clerical work and so release other fit men. I raise the point because a new Order has come out which I entirely fail to understand. The whole controversy which is shaking the country at present is a question of figures. This Order says that if a man is found to be absolutely medically unfit when he has passed through all these difficulties which I have tried to outline to the House, and is at last and finally marked for discharge, and his discharge is approved, he shall not be discharged but shall be relegated to the Army Reserve. I want to know what that Order means. Is this Army Reserve some new bogey you are putting up, including men with heart, disease and one leg, or is it a paper Army, and are you trying to put it up in order to bolster up the number of men you can say are in the Army to-day? If a man has heart disease, he is of no use as a soldier. We want to get rid of him. Why should we waste time trying to train and make a soldier of such a man? Why cannot we be allowed to send him back to civil life and so save his pay, re-utilise his uniform after it has been cleaned, by issuing it to another man, save his rations, and, by returning him to civil life, release another man suited to the Army?
I intervene now as I desire to answer some of the questions put to me by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel) and the hon. and gallant Member (Major Hamilton). I will deal with the last speaker first, as I see my right hon. Friend is not in his place at present. I am sure we are grateful to the hon. and gallant Gentleman for the racy sketch he gave of the manner in which the unfit are treated in certain units. I can only hope and believe that he gave us a very exceptional case. I will tell the hon. and gallant Member and the House what actually does occur under the present system. The recruit is, first of all, examined, as he said, in the recruiting office, generally by a medical man, who is not a medical board. A medical board examination generally comes afterwards when he is called up. An attestation examination is done in a recruiting office by a single medical officer. The medical board, in the case of valvular disease of the heart—the only disease mentioned by the hon. and gallant Member—
No, I mentioned hernia and flat-feet.
Let me take valvular disease of the heart. In that case the man would not be sent to the 3rd Battalion of the Queen's Westminsters, or he should not be sent. He should be put in one of the categories named by the hon. and gallant Member, either for garrison duty at home or, possibly, if it were not a very serious case, for a Labour Battalion. I do not think it would be impossible for such a man to do work, for instance, like unloading ships, and that kind of work. Every instance must depend upon the individual, and how badly developed the illness is. In the case of hammer-toes and flat-feet a man might be properly put into the Labour Battalion also. My hon. and gallant Friend omitted to mention that, apart from the categories he did name—first, general service; secondly, garrison duty abroad; thirdly, Labour Battalions; fourthly, garrison duty at home; and, fifthly, sedentary occupations like clerical labour, that all men who are so unfortunate as to be so physically unfit that they cannot be sent to either of the first three categories are sent home to their civil occupations.
That is not so.
But they are.
The whole of the figures which I quoted refer to the Third Line Reserve Battalions. I said that in my speech. The 102 men to whom I referred were permanently unfit, and the 240 out of the 1,200 were all in units exactly similar to the Third Battalion of the Queen's Westminsters.
I can only say that if those men are so really medically unsound as the hon. and gallant Member said, they ought not to be there.
That is why I have spoken.
The process I am describing is the process of putting these men into categories and sending them to their civil occupation. That is the whole reason why we have established these Medical Boards, namely, in order that they should be sent home. I cannot understand how it is that in the case the hon. and gallant Gentleman mentioned the machinery does not seem to have operated.
made an observation which was inaudible in the Reporters' Gallery.
Do you seriously say that?
I say that in my own knowledge there are a great many cases of a similar kind.
The hon. and gallant Member was good enough to say that he was going to make my speech for me, and he did, to a certain extent, embark upon it. The only other question which he raised, and upon which I wish to disabuse his mind, was whether the figures which have been supplied to the Cabinet of the number of men, included these unfits. No, Sir, they do not. But they would include the men who actually were in his unit.
They do include these, then?
They ought never to have got there. There has been some extraordinary accident in this case which I cannot understand. I will certainly endeavour to examine it. None of the number who are classified in the categories for sedentary occupations or clerical duty at home, or for garrison duty abroad, unless they have been sent abroad, would be included in the figures which have been and are being considered, so that the idea of a paper Army is not one we should cultivate.
Is the Army Reserve included?
The Army Reserve is not included. Men in the Army Reserve are not included in the Army. I hope the House will understand that. I turn now to the questions put to me by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kirkcaldy, who is now here. I do not think, if I may say so, that this would be an appropriate moment to deal with the question of General Townshend's Force in Kut-el-Amara. As the House knows, operations are going on, and are fairly successful. Any information I could give would really be of much greater assistance to the Turkish Army than to the British Army; therefore I hope my right hon. Friend will excuse me saying more than that.
With regard to the Canteen Committee and Control Board, of which my hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster (Sir C. Nicholson) was chairman, I wish to say nothing which would seem ungracious or ungrateful; for, indeed, the Army Council are much indebted to my hon. Friend and to that Control Board for the great service which they did. They intervened when we were in difficulties, and they performed a service for which, not only the Army Council, but this House and the nation owe them a debt of gratitude. I wish that to be placed on record. It is considered that perhaps better results might be achieved by a body which will be in closer touch with military units, and also will be able to give full effect to the activities of commanders. Perhaps I may give to the House now the names of the new Army Canteen Committee, which I promised I would give to the House as soon as the names were complete. They are as follows:
Chairman.
Major-General Rt. Hon. Lord Cheylesmore, K.C.V.O.
Vice-Chairman.
Major-General F. W. B. Landon, C.B., Chief Inspector of Quartermaster-General's Services, War Office.
Members.
The Rt. Hon. the Member for Accrington (Mr. H. T. Baker).
Samuel Bostock, Esq., Chairman of the Governors, Agricultural Organisation Society.
Walter Leaf, Esq., Deputy-Chairman of the London County and Westminster Bank.
Captain Gordon Leith.
Sir William Lever, Baronet.
G. E. May, Esq., secretary of the Prudential Assurance Company, Limited.
Captain Frank Towle.
Lieut.-Colonel W. K. Venning, Assistant Adjutant-General, War Office.
Military representatives of the various Commands.
Ex-Officio Members.
Inspectors of Quartermaster-General's Services.
It is hoped that one or two members of the late Board of Control may also join the Committee, although I regret to say I have been informed that my hon. Friend (Sir C. Nicholson) has not seen his way to accept our invitation to give his services. I hope this statement may be considered sufficient, and that the hon. Gentleman will not press me to say more. I would only emphasise my feeling of gratitude to my hon. Friends at the old Board for the part which they have played. I do not think I need say any more.
I should not have intervened if this question of the old Canteen Board had not been raised by my right hon. Friend (Sir H. Dalziel). I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for the kind words which he has spoken of that Board, but I am not at all sure in my own mind that the change proposed is for the better, and it seems to be necessary for me, speaking for several Members of the House who were members of that Board, to put before the House our views and some account of the work that we have had to do. I should like the House to realise that this Board of Control was appointed in consequence of the decision of a Committee, which was known as the Rotherham Committee, which was set up in order to examine into the whole question of canteen arrangements, and upon that Board were Sir William Lever, Sir Richard Burbridge, Mr. Hinton, and Mr. Whitehead, all thoroughly conversant with the details of the trade, which is principally a grocery trade and, to a certain extent, a beer trade. When the War broke out there was an enormous increase, naturally, in the size of the Army at once, and if alterations had to be made it was necessary that they should be made immediately, and it was decided to recommend the appointment of this Board of Control of Regimental Institutes, and that the system of leaving it to the commanding officers, as it used to be in the old days, to settle the amount of the rebate to be paid by the contractor was to be abolished, and every contractor in future should pay 10 per cent. of his gross daily takings, instead of the rebate to the Board of Control. It was subsequently settled that, of this 10 per cent., four-fifths should be handed back to the Regimental Institute, while the fifth which remained in the hands of the Board was to be used in payment of their expenses, and the balance should be held for the units or as the Army Council should direct. It was also settled, at the same time, that the right of the commanding officer to change his contractor should be subject to the consent of the Board of Control. The Report of the Rotherham Committee was laid upon the Table of the House, and it may be very much open to question whether this Board does not owe its existence to the House itself, and not to the Army Council.
However that may be, in January, 1915, I was asked by Lord Kitchener to act as Chairman of the Board, and I am told he previously consulted the Prime Minister on the subject. The Board consisted of Sir Wm. Lever, Sir Richard Burbidge, Mr. Hinton, and Mr. Whitehead, all of whom were members of the Rotherham Committee—and were selected because of their great knowledge of the trade in which they were concerned—the hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Horne), the right hon. Gentleman Mr. J. W. Wilson, Mr. Sendall, an accountant recommended by the War Office, Mr. L. D. Nicholson, and three representatives of the War Office themselves, one from the Quartermaster-General's Department, one from the Adjutant-General's Department, one from the Finance Branch, and one from each of the separate commands throughout the whole of the United Kingdom, and the military and civil elements were approximately balanced. A stronger or a more competent Board for controlling what is essentially a business undertaking, which has proved to be a very large business indeed, could hardly have been found in any other direction whatever. This Board has now been at work for something like fifteen months, and it is safe to say that the opportunities for bribery and corruption, which were a reason for the putting up of the Board, have practically disappeared. At the moment we were dismissed we were controlling a trade which amounts to something like £12,000,000 a year, and are handing back to the regimental institute funds monthly a sum which over the whole year, at the present rate, would amount to something like £960,000. The difficulties at the commencement were very considerable in view of the fact that we had 1,000 or 1,200 of these institutes to control, and the staff had to be steadily increased until we had sixteen inspectors constantly going round the country visiting each institute and seeing that the goods supplied were of good quality and that the prices paid were not in excess of those sanctioned by the Board of Control. As to the question of prices, every month the Board fixed a maximum price above which the goods supplied were not to be sold and each month every contractor sent in his price list, which was examined with the list fixed by the Board, and if the price of any article was in excess of that fixed by the Board it was cut down and the contractor was written to, and the price adjusted to the maximum price which had been fixed. This applies to something like 370 articles commonly sold. There are, however, about a dozen articles of local produce the price of which it is impossible to fix all over the country, and it is round these that the present trouble has principally arisen. If I may take one example, the question of potatoes, according to the Board of Agriculture Return, we find that in the different markets of the country the price of potatoes will vary as much as from 76s. a ton to 120s. a ton, and when you come to supply a district like Salisbury Plain of course the range of prices is very wide indeed. In these cases the Board made it a rule that the commanding officer should settle the price of these aritcles of local produce with the contractor monthly, and in case of disagreement the commanding officer could appeal to the Board who, through their chief inspector, would act as arbitrator. This, in many cases, has been done, but I gather that in many other cases the commanding officer has preferred not to appeal to the Board, but has made his complaint to the inspectors of quartermasters' services, who have to look after the messing of the men and, so far as I can judge, these complaints have never been forwarded or brought before the notice of the Board.
I want to turn the attention of the House to another side of the question. Hitherto I have only spoken of the system as it exists in England, which is worked through contractors. In France and the other places where the War is being carried on there are no contractors, but the institute arrangements are carried out by an official organisation of the War Office known as the Expeditionary Force Canteens, of the Board of which I happen to be still chairman. The whole of the work of this Expeditionary Force Canteens, of which I have have heard nothing but good, is done by two gentlemen, the representatives of two of the largest firms of contractors in England, namely, Mr. A. W. Prince, the chairman of Richard Dickeson and Company, and Mr. Benson, the secretary of the Canteen and Mess Co-operative Association. Both of these Gentlemen have placed their services at the disposal of the War Office and are taking no salary for the enormous amount of work which is placed on their shoulders, and I think the country owes them a very great debt of gratitude for the patriotism they have displayed. So good has been the working of this Expeditionary Force Canteens abroad that a question was put down in the House a little time ago, asking if it would not be possible to adopt the same system in England so as to avoid the employment of a large number of contractors, and the right hon. Gentleman stated that the matter should be referred to the Board of Control. That was done, and the Board of Control appointed a sub-committee to consider the question. This sub-committee reported to the Army Council a scheme by which the Board of Control should take over the whole system of supply and that Mr. Prince should be appointed managing director at a salary of £10,000 a year for five years. This salary may strike some people as being ráther excessive, but, compared with many salaries which are paid in the commercial world, it is by no means so. When it is further remembered that by the adoption of such a scheme as this, by which, among other things, the wholesale profit is saved, and an economy effected which it is confidently expected could not be less than something like £2,000,000 a year at the most, and possibly might have gone up to £3,500,000, a salary of £10,000 a year is really a very small sum. In addition to this, it is admitted on all hands that Mr. Prince's abilities are undoubted—it is admitted by the War Office itself—and that probably he has no equal in capacity for dealing with this trade.
The Board then recommended this scheme to the Army Council, and it has been approved of by them at a meeting at which thirteen members were present, of whom seven were military and six were civilians. It was passed unanimously, and no word of objection was raised to it by the military members present. On 24th April the sub-committee was summoned to a conference at the War Office. We all thought we were going to discuss this Report of the Committee, but we were informed that the Army Council could not see its way to adopt it on two grounds: First, that the salary to be offered to Mr. Prince was excessive, and secondly that his name would not command the confidence of the various commanding officers throughout the country. The question of the salary must be left to business people to decide, but with regard to the question of Mr. Prince himself it seems an astonishing thing to state that he would not command the confidence of the commanding officers throughout the country when as a matter of fact the commanding officers throughout the country are employing him in something like 220 or 230 instances as contractor for their institutes, and he is doing the largest business of any contractor throughout the country with the consent of the commanding officers themselves, and in addition to this he is the man whose services the War Office have themselves accepted, at no salary, to be responsible for the whole of the work abroad. The sub-committee was also informed at the conference at the War Office that their services were no longer required and the whole of their work would be transferred to the department of the Inspectors of Quartermasters Services. Practically no reasons were given except the statement that there was a variation of prices in certain institutes, and the suggestion was made that this was manifestly unjust and absurd. The Board of Control had no wish to stifle competition between contractors so long as the prices did not exceed the maximum. Then there were one or two complaints about delay in correspondence. All I have to say to that is that I could reply perfectly easily with a tu quoque argument and say that correspondence in answer to letters to the War Office from the Board of Control, which certainly deserved a considerable amount of consideration, had taken much longer than this.
8.0 P.M.
The all-important question is whether this transfer of the duties of the Board is likely to lead to increased efficiency or not, and if reference is made to the names of the men who sat as business people to control enormous businesses upon this Board I do not think anyone would say that our efficiency could be improved upon by the alteration which has been made. The whole of the work has been done voluntarily and, so far as my experience of the Board goes, was done without friction, and in every instance but one with the approval of the military members. I cannot refrain from expressing the opinion that the Army Council has made a very grave mistake in dismissing the old Board. If any alteration was to have been made it should have taken the line of asking that some of the staff of inspectors of Quartermasters' Services should be allowed to have so many seats on the Board as it was then constituted. They would have been welcomed at once, and every member of the Board would have been only too glad to give all the information about any difficulties which have arisen, so that we should all be able to join together and meet them if it was possible to do so. I am not without hope that this may still come about. I think it necessary to say a few words more. I understand from the right hon. Gentleman that Sir William Lever has been asked to join this Board. I was unaware that he had done so. It was only a few days ago that he told me that he had not done so and did not intend to do so, and that the invitation had been extended to him under a misapprehension or, rather, he misunderstood the invitation extended to him. I do not know whether in the interval he has changed his mind and has accepted the invitation. For myself, looking at the matter from the point of view of such a large business as this, a colossal business of between £10,000,000 and £12,000,000 a year, I maintain that it must be controlled, and ought to be controlled, by people who are thoroughly conversant with the trade. Unless it is done in that way, I do not think the new arrangement can possibly meet with success. It is perfectly true that I have been asked to join this Board. I have replied that if the invitation extended to me was extended also to the business members composing the old Board, I should be very glad to do all I could to assist the new Board in their work, but until such an invitation is extended to the business members of the old Board I cannot see my way to accept the invitation that has been offered to me. The essential thing is, that this should be conducted on an efficient basis, and I do not believe that the people whose names we have heard mentioned this evening are likely to conduct this business in so satisfactory a manner as those business men whose names I have already mentioned, and who have great reputations in the business world. I think the Army Council would be wise if they asked all those gentlemen to join this new organisation before it is complete.
I rise for the purpose of calling attention to the shipping dispute as a result of which the cross channel traffic between Belfast and Liverpool, Heysham and Fleetwood, and also the traffic between Larne and Stranraer, has been suspended. I also desire to call attention to the failure of the Board of Trade to bring about a settlement of this dispute, although it has been in operation from six to eight weeks. It is necessary to call the attention of the House to the failure of the Board of Trade to adopt any adequate means of bringing about a stoppage of this strike. The North of Ireland has been deprived during all these weeks of direct cross-Channel communication with England, and for a considerable period the traffic between Belfast and Liverpool was also suspended. As the House will readily understand, this stoppage of steamship traffic across the Channel has led to a most serious loss by the business and industrial community in the North of Ireland, and also various industries in this country. In several instances the transport of munitions has been delayed and disorganised. In addition to that, and in order to show at once the seriousness of the trouble, all one need do is to point to the great inconvenience and loss which is caused to the travelling public. For weeks it has been-impossible to proceed from this country to Belfast or the North of Ireland except by the Holyhead and Dublin route. This means, at the present time, with the stoppage of the ordinary facilities for travel, a very great and serious loss and inconvenience to the travelling public, especially at this season of the year. The number of ships involved is eight or nine, and these ships carry mails, passengers, and also cargo between Belfast and Liverpool, Belfast and Fleetwood and Heysham, and between Larne and Stranraer. The number of men affected by the dispute is, roughly speaking, about three hundred. The dispute is in reference to the wages paid by the owners of the steamships to the crews of their vessels. I understand that the sums in dispute amount to from 10s. to 15s. per week per man, but I am not going into this aspect of the matter, because I think it is the least important of the dispute.
The main thing to which I wish to draw the attention of the House is that when this dispute arose the men involved, the crews of the ships, the seamen, and the firemen, offered unreservedly to submit the matters in dispute to settlement by arbitration by any person appointed by the Board of Trade. I regret very much to say that, on the other hand, the owners of the ships involved, who are almost entirely English railway companies, have refused to submit the dispute to arbitration. The serious question to consider is whether, in a dispute between employer and employed, and especially in face of the common danger which confronts the country, the railway companies of England are to receive the support of this House and the sanction of the Board of Trade while they persist in refusing to adopt a policy for refusing which workmen on the Clyde and workmen in any part of the country are very properly condemned. Everyone will realise—in fact, everyone does realise—that an industrial dispute, a strike, is a thing to be deplored, and a thing by every possible means to be avoided. When such a dispute arises the policy of this country for a long time has been to have such dispute settled by arbitration. As a matter of fact, in all the emergency legislation passed since the War dealing with this matter, provision has been made for the compulsory reference of industrial disputes to arbitration. We have heard, in the House and outside the House, expressions of the strongest condemnation from workmen who have refused to submit their disputes to arbitration, to go before an arbitrator and have the matters in dispute fairly thrashed out and determined, and an award arrived at just to all the parties concerned. Workmen on the Clyde have been called unpatriotic, and they have been called traitors to their country because they went on with their disputes in spite of the provision made in the Statute, and in spite of the offers made by the Board of Trade, to give them facilities for having the disputes settled by arbitration. I say, without hesitation, that none of the strong words of condemnation which have been used in regard to the Clyde workmen are one whit too strong for the directors of the railway companies who persist in keeping this dispute open, and in dislocating this important branch of traffic for goods and passengers, although the workmen concerned have voluntarily offered to submit the dispute to arbitration.
The offer of the workmen involved came to the Board of Trade from the workmen themselves and from the trade unions with which the workmen are associated, and the matter has also been brought to the notice of the Board of Trade and the Government in this House. Questions have been asked on various occasions during the last four weeks, and I myself specifically put to the President of the Board of Trade this point: The railway companies in this country are practically controlled by the State—that is, controlled by the Government—and for the life of me I do not see how it is that the Board of Trade, having this control over the railway companies, are not in a position to bring the railway companies, by pressure, or make them as a right to submit their dispute to reference by the Board of Trade for arbitration. I was told by the President of the Board of Trade, in answer to a question, that the Board of Trade have no legal right to insist upon arbitration. I respectfully differ with the right hon. Gentleman in his opinion as to how far his legal rights extend. The fact is that the railway companies are controlled by the Government, and the Government have the right to exercise their wide powers where any question of the transport of munitions or anything else requisite for the War is concerned. There are constant demands on the ships engaged in this traffic for the transport of munitions, and I say without hesitation that the Government, having in its power the control of the ships engaged in this traffic, is in a position, without further authority from the House of Commons or otherwise, to insist upon the railway companies submitting to arbitration in order to bring about a settlement of this dispute. However, let us not look at this merely as a question of the legal rights of the matter. The Government are under an obligation to keep up the dividends of the railway companies, and does the President of the Board of Trade mean to tell the House of Commons that, in face of that tie between the Government and the railway companies, in face of a dispute affecting the workmen on ships belonging to the railway companies, the Government and the Board of Trade are so powerless that they are unable to bring about in these circumstances a reference to the Board by the railway companies owning these ships of the dispute between them and their crews for arbitration? I say it is monstrous, and I refuse to believe that the Govern- have not this power already.
There is another way in which the Government can bring about all the pressure that is necessary in order to compel the shipowners involved in this dispute to bring the matter before an arbitrator appointed by the Board of Trade. There was recently a dispute in which a Dublin shipping company was involved, a dispute existing between that company and the crews working its ships. The Government had no control over that company. It was not a company with which the railway companies had anything to do. In that case the President of the Board of Trade intimated to the shipping company that unless a speedy settlement of the dispute were brought about the Government would commandeer the ships, and in that way the settlement of the dispute by arbitration would be taken away from the owners and taken by the Government into its own hands. It was suggested in this House to the President of the Board of Trade that it was in his power to requisition the ships if the railway companies refused to have the dispute referred to arbitration. It is a scandal that this dispute should go on, and should be allowed to go on by the Government at the present time, in face of the country's need; and if the Government is going to stand idly by while the railway companies involved in this dispute refuse all offers of arbitration, and if this is tolerated by the Government, how can the Government condemn workmen on the Clyde, or in any other part of the country, if they refuse to submit to arbitration? What right can the railway company presume to have greater than any citizen of the State has? It is good enough to say to a citizen who is involved in an industrial dispute, "You must submit to arbitration," but is it for the railway companies, because they enjoy special privileges and special monopolies, or for their directors, to say to a body of workmen engaged in a dispute with them, "Arbitration is all right for workmen, but we are in a privileged position; we defy you; we defy the interests of the State; we will have nothing to do with arbitration." I trust that, in view of the great hardship which is involved and the utterly unreasonable position which the railway companies have adopted in this matter, the Board of Trade will now at last see their way to take some drastic action in order to bring, the railway companies to their knees, and force them to have this dispute settled in the only reasonable manner for settling such disputes—that is by arbitration.
I want to supplement the appeal that has been made by my hon. Friend. In normal times disputes between employers and employés could reasonably be left to be fought out by both sides, but even then, when a third party is involved, the general assumption in matters of this kind is that if someone else is suffering as a result of this dispute, every effort ought to be made to bring about a settlement. But if that is the position in time of peace, I submit that an entirely different position is created in time of war. Whenever we hear to-day of a trade dispute among the workers, invariably they are labelled traitors. A howl goes up from all sides of the House, that here is a body of men who so disregard the nation's interest and are so entirely unmindful of their duty and responsibility that they fail to appreciate the national needs. I submit that there is much to be said for that point of view. I have declared on many occasions that, in my humble judgment, there ought not to-day to be any dispute between employers and employés incapable of adjustment. That is to say, that if the employers and the men themselves fail to agree, some independent chairman ought to be called in. But curiously enough in this dispute not only do the railway companies say, "No, we will refuse to meet you. We refuse to recognise your claims," but they go beyond that and say, "We will not allow anyone else to intervene so far as we are concerned," and in taking up that position they say "national interests, national responsibilities, and the nation's crisis are all secondary to the dignity that we have resolved to maintain for ourselves." I submit that that is the position that ought to be dealt with.
Under the Munitions Act, curiously enough, if a body of men have a dispute with a railway company and the railway company refuse their demand, all that the men would have to do would be to say, "We will make an application to the Committee of Production," with the result that the Committee of Production, having heard both sides of the case, would be able to say at once what, in their judgment, was a fair settlement of the dispute. Here we have the President of the Board of Trade, who is president of the Railway Executive Committee. I am quite satisfied that he has made representations to and talked the matter over with the railway companies, but I submit that the duty of the Government in this matter is not to say, "Will you please do this," but to say "In the national interests you must do this." If the men's case is a bad one, if there is no justification for their claims, and their demands are entirely unreasonable, surely we are justified in assuming that the only people who would be capable of judging that are some independent authority. If the railway companies themselves are so certain of their case and so satisfied that the claims cannot be justified, surely they ought readily to agree that the matter should be adjusted or considered by some independent authority.
I make the appeal on a further ground. The real difficulty that has been experienced in labour circles in past times was caused not by any strong demand on the part of a large body of men, but invariably sprang from a dispute with a small body of men, and invariably the natural and right sympathy that exists between the workers themselves when they feel that one body can help another, has always resulted in a great national stoppage, accruing from what in the first instance was a minor dispute. I put it to the Board of Trade that at a time like this, the real way to tackle a dispute is immediately to say when first it commences, "We are going to settle this matter straight away." But the opinion is now gaining ground that it is only for a larger section to come to the rescue of these men, it is only for that union to say, "Very well, much as we regret the necessity, much as we deplore having to take the action, there is only one way of compelling the Government to interfere, that is by calling out other men in sympathy with these," and no one suggests for a moment that if the union took that course the Government would not immediately take action. What is the moral effect of action of this kind? It is an invitation to exert brute force. It is an invitation to the men to feel the best way of gaining their own ends is to strike work. Those of us who are responsible for trade union negotiations would deplore absolutely that spirit getting abroad, because we believe that the most just, best, and safest way of settling differences between capital and labour is, instead of striking and negotiating after, to negotiate first. It is to try and inculcate into the minds of the men that if they have a real case they will have a fair trial by going before the independent tribunal. In this case, all that the men ask is, not that their demands shall be conceded, not that they will wait out until a decision is given, but that the Government shall say to the railway companies, apart entirely from the merits of the case, and apart entirely from expressing an opinion as to whether the men are right or wrong, and without prejudice to either side, "This is a matter which ought to be adjusted by an independent tribunal, the men on one side clearly saying that they are prepared to accept the verdict, whether it is for them or against them, the railway companies, on the other hand, agreeing to a similar position." I submit that this is the most honest and commonsense way out of the difficulty, and it is with a view to settling the matter, and to stop the dispute spreading, and also with a view to encouraging arbitration as the best means of settling a difference of this kind, that I heartily support the suggestion that has already been made.
I cannot complain at all of my hon. Friend opposite the Member for N. Sligo, or the hon. Member for Derby, raising this question, and asking that the Board of Trade should give an answer upon it. I may say that I understand the position of the railway companies to be that the reason they have not so far assented to arbitration is because they consider they have a definite agreement with the men, that, when they raised their wages at the beginning of the War, the men gave a definite undertaking that the rate agreed to by both parties should remain unaltered throughout the War.
I know that position has been taken up, but I want to put the point, why not let the arbitrator consider that?
If a definite agreement has been entered into, that the question shall not be raised again during the War, and I do not understand that that is disputed—
The men dispute that, and that is why I say this dispute ought to be settled.
I was not aware of that factor in the case, and I did not understand that the agreement was disputed.
They do not dispute that there has been an agreement, but they do dispute that the agreement prejudices them in making another claim. That is the point.
So far as I understand the nature of the agreement—and I do not wish to say anything save that which will bring this matter to an end, and I am only putting the case as it has been put to me—so far as I understand, the agreement was that no further demand should be raised during the War.
Could not the arbitrator, the representative of the Board of Trade, in considering this matter, also deal with the question whether or not this agreement, whatever it is, prevents his considering this dispute? Surely no agreement entered into at the beginning of the War should prevent the workmen from mating a greater demand, as the position alters during the War?
I am not stating the view of the Board of Trade, and I would remind the House that I am stating the view which the railway companies have put forward as their reason for not consenting to arbitration, which is that they have a definite agreement with the men that no further demand should be raised during the War, and having that agreement it cannot be arbitrated upon. My hon. Friend asks whether the arbitrator for the Board of Trade could not take that into consideration. Of course, if the parties agree to arbitration the arbitrator could take everything into consideration, and the Board of Trade have offered to arbitrate. The complaint is made that the Board of Trade have not enforced arbitration. I think the House will agree that this House has never yet in ordinary circumstances given any general authority to the Government or to any Government Department to enforce arbitration in the case of a dispute, unless both parties were willing to accept arbitration. That has been the principle accepted by this House. That principle, under the special circumstances in which we now find ourselves of national emergency, and in special cases, has been departed from to this extent, that where any dispute endangers the supply of munitions, then the Ministry of Munitions has the power of declaring that it is a dispute in a national emergency, and to force arbitration. If this dispute were in that category it would be dealt with, not by the Board of Trade, but by the Ministry of Munitions. The Ministry of Munitions have been fully informed of the circumstances of this dispute, and obviously, if this dispute does endanger the supply of munitions, then they would be able to enforce their powers. So far, it has not apeared to the Ministry of Munitions to be necessary to take action.
I do not want to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but may I say that so far from that being the fact, transport, under the Munitions Act, is now included, and, therefore, whilst the men have not actually stopped—the railwaymen, for instance—it is true to say that large numbers of them have threatened to stop, and it is only because the union have said to them, "No, you must not stop, and the matter is being negotiated," that we have been able to keep things going. I may state that I have just made inquiry, and I find that so far from it being true that there is an agreement, I am absolutely assured—and I think this will help the hon. Gentleman—that there has never been any agreement with the union either before the War or since the War. Consequently, the point raised as to this agreement is entirely repudiated by the union.
There may be no agreement with the union, but perhaps an agreement may have been made by the men themselves.
The union knows nothing about it.
The men may make an agreement directly or through their union, but if the men made an agreement it does not matter whether the union knows or not. I do not think they could repudiate an agreement because it was not made through the union.
Does the right hon. Gentleman take the view—and he would seem rather to indicate that he does—that where the men have made an agreement of this kind, whether of themselves or through their union, the Board of Trade cannot compel the railway companies to arbitrate? I think that would be absolutely unreasonable.
I do not take that position. I am stating the ground which the railway companies put forward, and also that the Board of Trade have been refused power of compulsory arbitration, which is an entirely different ground altogether; it is a matter of public policy, in which the Board of Trade is bound by the decision previously arrived at in this House. As a matter of public policy the Board of Trade are not entitled to force arbitration upon either side in the dispute. I do not think we would have the right to assume authority, in the absence of express authority from this House, to use pressure tantamount to exercising statutory authority which we have never received from this House. We may use persuasion and we may express an opinion. If the dispute endangers the supply or transport of munitions the House has provided machinery by which compulsory arbitration may be applied, but that does not rest with the Board of Trade.
The hon. Gentleman says that because there is not power given to the Board of Trade by this House to compel those people to go into arbitration, that it is not the policy of the Board of Trade to use persuasion which would amount to compulsion. Does not the hon. Gentleman know perfectly well that in every industrial dispute that has occurred for years in this country the Board of Trade has sent Sir George Askwith or Mr. Mitchell, or some man of that kind, and has him knocking at the doors of both sides until he forces them to come to arbitration? So far as I can see in the present case, they have done nothing to bring about arbitration.
Sir George Askwith has been in communication on the subject, and all the proceedings which the hon. Member has suggested have already been taken. I hope he does not understand me to suggest that the Board of Trade are holding aloof. All I say is that the Board of Trade have not hitherto felt that they have had the power to use compulsion, either direct or indirect. That is all. Short of actual compulsion we are doing everything we can, and desire to do so.
The railway companies have refused every overture which the Board of Trade has made—because, I presume, they have made many?
So far that is perfectly true as to every effort at arbitrations that we have made. The men have declared, as has been stated by the hon. Member for Derby, that they were willing to accept arbitration, but the companies, have refused arbitration on the ground I have already stated. That is the actual position. The Board of Trade have done everything in their power to try and bring the parties together, but so far they have not succeeded. They have not felt justified in enforcing actual compulsion. But I may say the position has improved in the sense that within the last two or three days an arrangement has been come to by the Belfast Steamship Company with their men, and that dispute has been settled. I understand also that a dispute between the Cork Steamship Company and its men has been referred to arbitration. It may be that the railway companies, when they see what has been said in this Debate here to-night, may possibly see their way to accept arbitration. But I cannot on behalf of the Board of Trade go outside the principles laid down by this House. Except as a matter of national emergency compulsory arbitration cannot be enforced in a dispute.
Will the Board of Trade try again in this matter and make representations at once to the railway companies in view of the great inconvenience and great loss that is being caused?
Certainly we will do anything we can to bring the parties, together. We are doing it constantly. The effects are obvious to the Board of Trade even more than to other people. I agree with what has been said by the hon. Member for North Sligo and the hon. Member for Derby as to the great national danger there is in any strike at the present time. It is also true, as the hon. Member for Derby pointed out, that a small strike may easily turn into a big one, and a labour trouble, like infectious disease, may extend over a very large area. I think it is unnecessary to tell the House that every ordinary means the Board of Trade possesses to bring the parties together and to end this most unfortunate strike has been is, and will be adopted. I hope that the House will understand that so far we have not seen our way to act in a manner which the House has never authorised and to compel arbitration. If it is to be compulsory, it will have to be under an Act specially passed by the House for compulsory arbitration where the supply or transport of munitions is affected, and when that happens the case is taken outside the Board of Trade. I do most sincerely hope that that will not be necessary, and that after this Debate we may find that it will be possible to bring the parties together.
I am sorry to have no more attractive subject than a plea for what is called common honesty, and the duty of showing that it is most uncommon and that dishonesty and misappropriation are the rule. I also regret not having been afforded a more appropriate time for it than the last hour before the Recess, when Members are naturally eager to get away to the enjoyment of their holidays. Neither of those misfortunes is attributable to me. Those who have the power to be honest or dishonest towards Ireland and who control the time of this House have made their choice and have cynically designated Ireland, bled to death by them, as the "one bright spot." This, I hold, imposes upon me the imperative duty of showing whenever I can what this co-opted and unelected Government is doing towards the wretched "bright spot." Nor is it my fault that a plea for honesty towards Ireland appears to have so few friends here, though the English people are always preaching honesty to the rest of the world. Since preaching must be in vain unless you practice, I am rendering a service to the State in doing all in my power to urge you to make a beginning and practice honesty towards Ireland. I have no more worthy doctrine than that embodied in the words, "To every nation its own, even though the nation is subject to England." The first ground on which I claim this simple justice for Ireland is your own special product and favour, the Act of Union. The terms arranged for Ireland in that Act were scandalously bad, just such as men selling their country were forced to by the degrading duress of their position at the dictation of their purchasers. When the few faithful members of the Irish Parliament protested, and expressed their fear that in spite of the treaty and promises preceding that Act, Ireland might at some future date be taxed uniformly with England, that sug- gestion was strongly repudiated by English statesmen and their Irish creatures. Mr. Pitt said that if he were asked what security was necessary against that danger he would answer without hesitation, "None," because the liberality—
I do not know that there is any Minister of the Crown serving His Majesty who could answer for Mr. Pitt.
I did not intend to dwell upon Mr. Pitt further than to point out that the policy under which the Act was passed, and the pledge given by him, have been, since his time, deliberately violated, and never so disgracefully as at the present time. It is not according to me but according to Mr. Pitt. Your treatment of Ireland since his time, and especially at the present moment, is a disgraceful negation of the liberality, the justice, and the honour of the British people. Unjust as the terms of the Act of Union were, England has been found by her own financial experts not to have kept them, but to have made their practice much worse, and the recent and present increases cannot be adequately described otherwise than as public plunder. The Act of Union and the Consolidation Act of 1916 provide for special exemptions and abatements for Ireland. Those provisions have been wholly disregarded for no reason but the robber's reason, that you are strong and covetous and we are powerless to resist. Every Member listening to me knows that that is not a reason worthy of an honest nation. When last January I asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how he proposed to allocate the increases of his then last Budget so as to give Ireland the benefit of the exemptions and abatements to which she is entitled under these Acts, both of which are still in force, he gave me the sneering answer that Ireland would be given the same exemptions and abatements as the rest of the United Kingdom. That meant no exemptions or abatements. It meant no new discrimination against Ireland, but an increase of the existing discrimination. It meant, according to his own estimate, an increase of £8,000,000 a year in the already excessive taxes of Ireland up to that date, with a further increase in prospect which he is now in the act of imposing. It meant that the Acts mentioned, the treaties with Ireland, are to be treated as scraps of paper because you are strong and covetous and we are weak. Is not that a nice qualification for lecturing other people on alleged breach of treaty? In resisting this policy of plunder and treachery to Ireland, and your own Act of Union, I rely, in the first place, on that Act as being, bad though it is, better than your practice. In the second place, I rely upon the findings of the non-party Financial Relations Commission, the majority of whom were British experts. After diligent investigation of the accounts and examination of witnesses they found that Ireland had been, since the Union, and was still being, overtaxed to the extent of something like £2,750,000 annually. Lord MacDonnell, calculating on the basis of their findings down to 1914, has declared that the excessive taxes taken from Ireland had amounted to £325,000,000. Since then, short though the time is, the amount of this extortion has been increased to about £340,000,000. I rely upon this competent financial authority in holding that your practice is at once a breach of justice and of the Treaty of Union, and should be reversed. The excess arose from the unjust allocation of burdens in the Treaty and Act of Union, and the subsequent effort, in breach of treaty and pledges, to assimilate the taxes of the two countries. In Ireland our knowledge of British Imperial greatness is limited to our intimate knowledge of the magnitude of Britain's plunder. So far as history records, no country ever suffered robbery on such a scale and so long continued in time of peace. We have a result in one of the most favourably circumstanced, one of the most favourably situated, lands under heaven being the chronic object of stagnation, decay, and pity. It would not be true of many lands, but the land of which it is true is Ireland.
Occasionally we hear complacent Englishmen and Americans, who look on the surface of facts without troubling about their causes, talk of the mystery of Ireland's continued stagnation and decay side by side with England's continued prosperity. There is no mystery in it. Persistent robbery can exhaust any country. If Ireland were not stagnant and decaying there would be a mystery. If we were not moved to action by robbery on this gigantic scale we should be by the extraordinary remark of the Chief Secretary, that the taxation of Ireland is not our business but that of the English Cabinet. That is the principle on which the Home Rule Act is planned, to give to Ireland no control of her land or of her money, so that whether that Act is put into operation or not does not much affect the matter of taxation. It is not a political, but a purely business matter in which the entire Irish people are equally concerned. In this case of fraud, ascertained by a competent financial authority, committed by the protector on the protected, the convicted stepmother must not be allowed to assume the airs and functions of a judge for the purpose of measuring the amount of restitution she is to make to her victims. That has been settled in advance by the Seventh Commandment, "Thou shalt not steal." The amount unjustly taken is the amount to be restored. When the wealthiest nation in the world, through the mouths of their own experts, admits that she has been robbing us for more than a century, refuses to pay her debt to the nation she has plundered, and actually increases the plunder, we Irish would be traitors to our country, and to the principle of justice, if we failed to resist the increase and to demand restitution.
9.0 P.M.
Ireland has never given, and cannot afford to give, any man authority to hush up her just claim, or offer any compromise on it. To offer compromise before the debtor has begun to pay would be to betray Ireland and every interest of Ireland that stands in need of this Irish money. What was the use of the Financial Relations Commission at all if its findings are to be disregarded? Does anyone imagine that if its findings had been the other way, showing that we owed something to England, they would have been disregarded? Of course not! One of the dishonest fallacies which the Financial Relations Commission unanimously agreed in exploding was the pretence that uniformity of taxation for Great Britain and Ireland guarantees equality of burden. The Commissioners unanimously agreed that it does nothing of the kind. After exhaustive investigation they found that what it does guarantee is inequality, and we condemn it as being not only a breach of the treaty and promise of the Union, but in itself cruelly unjust to Ireland. Purely owing to natural causes, but mainly owing to unfair allocation of burdens by the Act, aggravated by still more unfair taxation of Ireland since—in utter disregard of even the inadequate safeguards of that Act—the disparity of means between England and Ireland is so great, the distribution of land, wealth, and industry so different and so unnatural, the economic conditions and habits of the people so unlike, that no comparison can be formed, but only a sharp contrast. To impose a uniform system of taxation on two nations so essentially different in means and circumstances would be grotesque if it were not so cruelly tyrannous. Every attempt to assimilate them aggravates the evil, owing to established dissimilarity, and to the one-sided and unfair character of the attempts. Every year, including the present year, large grants are made out of the revenue for local purposes in wealthy England, and no equivalent grants are made to Ireland. Another proof of the dishonesty and guilty knowledge of this Government is its conduct in sending Lady Aberdeen to collect from the charitable in America, ostensibly for the relief of the starving peasant children in Ireland. Since those alms, if they ever reached the persons at all, must go in their payments for tea, sugar, cocoa, tobacco, and other indispensable commodities into the British Treasury, we are entitled to ask, Did the Government instruct Lady Aberdeen to explain to the charitable in America that their alms would be as heavily taxed as the pay of English mechanics earning up to £7 per week, would enable you to pay those men who are making engines for human destruction, and to pay for rum with which you madden your soldiers at the front, and for all the other civilising purposes of your war; and if, as probable, Lady Aberdeen obtains most money from philanthropists who would on no account directly, or indirectly, contribute toward what they consider merely murder, will she be required to return their subscriptions to them? Was she instructed to explain that if there were starving children in Ireland they were the product of the system of rule, of which she and her husband were willing tools, for which they were paid the handsome salary of £20,000 a year, having drawn in their whole period of office something like £250,000 of Irish money?
The hon. Member is disregarding the ruling I gave him some time ago. The matter he is referring to is not a matter which can be discussed here. For the second time I call attention to his remarks as irrelevant.
I will content myself, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, with the remark as to how inconsistent with Lady Aberdeen's story is the cry invented—
No, no! The hon. Member deliberately intends to disregard my ruling.
No, Sir.
Then the hon. Member had better pass from that subject.
I am passing from that subject. I am passing from it to direct the attention of the House to the inconsistency between that conduct, and the cry, invented for party purposes within the last few years, about Ireland's abounding prosperity. That cry is, in effect, a proclamation that Ireland may be taxed more instead of less; that the leaders who invented the cry must not be expected to resist the imposition of war taxes upon Ireland. The boast of Ireland's wealth is so devoid of foundation as to be ironical and offensive. They at one and the same time send a lady to beg for us and put taxes on us, on the ground that we are abounding in wealth. As for the boast of our prosperity, the working farmer and the working shopkeeper, who may be taken as average members of the Irish community, find it harder to live now than the same classes did fifty years ago. To compare their cramped circumstances with the easy affluence of the same classes in England is sheer mockery. If an Irishman makes £5 profit on a gross capital of £100, while an Englishman makes £50 profit on a gross capital of £1,000, both make 5 per cent. profit, but there is no substantial similarity in their circumstances. While the English are regaling themselves, notwithstanding the War, in more lavish style than ever they did before, drinking too much brandy and champagne, while we have too little milk, well-paid officials are lecturing Irish people on economy, when your taxation and the consequences of your rule are forcing them either to starvation, bankruptcy, or repudiation.
When you add to the continued and growing excessive taxes failure to restore, and neglect of, arterial drainage and other necessary work, stagnation of industry and trade, and the grave and growing responsibility for individual and country in connection with land purchase at reckless prices, you will find that Ireland is so bound up hand and foot that, unless she examines her alleged liabilities and repudiates such of them as are unjust, she may give up hope of industrial progress or continued existence. Owing to the crafty system of taxation, and often making so-called grants out of our own money for local purposes, thus acquiring power to withhold these grants against our default, it may be that under that crafty system we cannot successfully repudiate the precise liability that ought to be repudiated, but, since all our liabilities with the British Treasury are pooled against us, we are furnished with the principle and the justification for repudiating any liability that we can successfully defeat. The Government which repudiates its huge debt to us supplies us with the precedent. When the wealthiest nation in the world, convicted by her own experts of having robbed us, repudiates the debt, it gives a practical object lesson for its victims. In being prepared, as we always are, to pay whatever balance on the whole accounts becomes due from us, we satisfy strict honesty and we are under no obligation. In our circumstances of duress, repudiation within these limits is at once perfectly just and our bounden duty. Besides, it is the only way open to us to force the British Treasury to disgorge Irish money for Irish purposes. If generally adopted, not even a Coalition Government could imprison the whole Irish nation. It could, on the other hand, easily provide the remedy which justice demands and which would satisfy us any day. All suggestions as to how Ireland could discharge her duty to herself without the money of which she is being deprived, and without complete control of her own finances in the future, are necessarily dishonest and economically unsound. That one which most offends against common decency is the suggestion that we are getting too much money in old age pensions, and on that account should not claim full restitution or resist the imposition of excessive taxes. The greater proportion of old age pensioners in Ireland than elsewhere is not due to any Irish cause, or to any mysterious causes, but is the direct result of extermination by eviction, emigration, and excessive taxes, forcing the healthy young people out of the country, and leaving the old and feeble at home. The guilty nation taking advantage of that would be profiting by its own tyranny and fraud. It is the old policy of robbing us and then punishing us for being poor. It is the devil's policy of making one crime a pretext for another. It is the low-water mark of perfidy. It could only emanate from the mind perverted from decency as well as principle. It is so base that a Government mean enough to descend to it should not be trusted in anything.
So far I have dealt chiefly with money, and the things directly affected by money, but taxes, especially when excessive, affect every other material interest, and some other nations' interests are greater even than money. Its people are ultimately a country's greatest welfare—so every other nation considers. During the last seventy years the population of England and Wales has increased from 15,000,000 to 36,000,000; in the same period, the population of Ireland has decreased from 8,250,000 to 4,250,000. That is how uniformity of taxation works out in practice. Is it prosperity that drives people like the Irish out of their native country, where there is so much urgent work for them to do? Is it prosperity that prevents their staying at home to do it? The one and sufficient explanation of that startling contrast is that one nation is taxed and ruled by itself, while the other is taxed and ruled by and for outsiders. One enjoys native rule, while the other is subject to foreign rule. One is governed constitutionally, while the other is being exterminated. If England and Wales had been treated as Ireland has been treated their population would now be less than 7,500,000. If Ireland had been treated as England and Wales have been, that population would now exceed 18,000,000. As this national tragedy in a time of peace is established by official statistics it cannot be disputed, nor can England's guilt be denied. It proves conclusively to every competent and impartial man that the simple explanation of England's wealth and Ireland's poverty under the same government is that the strong country is prosperous at the expense of the weaker; that one is the other's enemy; and Ireland has not and never had any enemy country but one. The increase of excessive taxation is only a continuance and aggravation of the endless methods of destroying a nation—
With every wish to be indulgent to the hon. Member, may I ask you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, if he is in order in reading a speech of this length?
It is not in accordance with the Rules of the House that an hon. Member should read his speech. For quite a considerable time the hon. Member's remarks have been irrelevant, and as I have twice before called his attention to this fact, I must now ask him to resume his seat
Mr. KING rose—
The hon. Member has already exhausted his right to speak.
I only asked a question this afternoon of the Prime Minister as to the course of public business. As a matter of fact, I asked two questions to which the Prime Minister replied. I submit to you, Sir, that asking a question does not exhaust in any sense my right to speak.
The hon. Member's right to speak will arise again on the Motion that succeeds this Resolution.
again rose—
I have already ruled that the hon. Member has exhausted his right to speak on this Vote.
Question, "That this House, at its rising this day, do adjourn until Tuesday next," put, and agreed to.
The remaining Orders were read and postponed.
Whereupon Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 22nd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
Education in London
Exclusion of Infants
I will begin the few remarks I have to make by saying that I think your ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, just now has caused me such surprise and, temporarily at least, indignation, that I think it my duty to say—
The hon. Member is now proceeding to make remarks disorderly to the Chair.
On the contrary, I rise primarily with the intention of saying that I shall consider the position, and if I come to the conclusion that your ruling is unfair, I shall take the opportunity of putting down a Motion in the ordinary way. I rise to call attention to a matter which can be briefly stated, and which I venture to think is a matter of very grave importance, I mean the way in which the London Education Authority is now excluding from school children under five. We all know that this question of the right of children under five to attend school is a difficult, and in some ways a debatable subject, but there have been a large number of excellent infant schools in London taking in these children. Large premises have been provided, and teachers and equipments have also been provided, and though the number has in recent years been largely reduced yet they are still attending in large numbers. The Retrenchment Committee a little time ago suggested as one of the points which was open to consideration whether the number of children attending under five might not be reduced in order to obtain more economy in education, in my opinion a very unwise recommendation, and one which ought certainly to be well considered by the Board of Education, by local authorities, and by this House before it is acted upon. The London Education Authority seems to have rushed in where angels and the Board of Education fear to tread, because the Board of Education has given no instruction or advice upon this point and the London Education Authority are now proceeding in a very high-handed and ruthless manner to exclude from school these tender children.
I might tell the story at some length, but I will put it as briefly as I can. It appears that some weeks ago the Retrenchment Committee of the London County Council suggested this economy in connection with children under five. When it went to their education committee, the educationists at once pointed out that there were a large number of children now excluded, that those who were in school could not be further kept out of the school in order to make room for others, nor their number restricted, without grave social difficulties and hardship. A number of the mothers of these children go out to work, and they send their younger children to the infant school very often in charge of the older children who go to the upper standards, and unless they had these facilities these women would not be able to carry on their usual employment. At the present time the number of women working in this way taking advantage of the infant schools, and their elder children attending the school together, is largely increasing. I am told that in certain munition areas the number is very large indeed, and to begin at this time excluding those children from school is cruelty, bad policy from the point of view of making munitions, and bad policy from the point of view of the welfare of those young children. There was a discussion in the London County Council, and eventually a sort of compromise was arrived at, a resolution being passed that children under five should be excluded except where their social circumstances demanded their admission. I believe that is against the spirit and even the letter of the law. If it had been carried out in a fair and generous spirit, that resolution might have stood, but before the London Education Committee could put the policy into force, after debate, consideration, and the issuing of orders, I am told that one of the officials issued an order that in a list of schedule schools, amounting to hundreds, no children under five were any more to be admitted. I am glad to say that when the Education Committee came to consider what their executive officer or some executive officer had done, they very promptly stamped upon him and his precious scheme, but this action does show the spirit there is in the officialism and in those who are working in a narrow ungenerous spirit the educational facilities of this great city. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education will take notice of this. I cannot expect any elaborate answer from him, but I hope that he will seriously take into consideration what has been done and what is being done. I have only told one chapter of the story. Since the stamping upon this official the London Education Committee has decided upon a new policy. They have issued orders to all teachers that parents applying for their children under five to be admitted must be sent to the divisional office of the district in which the school is situated. The application, therefore, has to be made to a divisional office which very often is miles away from the dwelling of the parent.
Not in London.
Yes, in some districts like Tower Hamlets it may well be two miles away. They are told that they are to go on a certain date and appear before a tribunal. This tribunal ought to be called an inquisition, for it asks all sorts of questions: How many children there are, what income the parents have, and what their circumstances are? At the end, in nine cases out of ten, they are told that their children cannot be admitted. I am told that out of forty-five applications made before one tribunal only four were granted. We have had enough of tribunals lately. I do not think that they have all of them been very successful. Do let us have education at any rate free from this tribunal inquisition. I wish to protest on behalf of parents, and I have had some communications on this matter, against this inquisitorial method. It is the right of parents to send their children to school irrespective of creed, social position, or any other bar of that kind. I hold it to be an infringement of the liberty and rights of the people and an entirely new principle in our educational system that parents should have to go before a tribunal and answer all sorts of questions put to them about totally private or irrelevant matters, and then be told that their children cannot be admitted. I am here to protest against it, and I believe that I shall at any rate get some sympathy from my right hon. Friend opposite.
I have great trust that the Board of Education is facing this very difficult problem of education in war-time in a right spirit, but that the whole educational system of a great City like London, which I suppose is going to be taken as an example for the other cities of this country, should be changed in this respect, affecting hundreds of families and thousands of children, without, as far as I can understand, any consultation with the Board of Education and without their approval is quite monstrous. These children, who would be in the gutter if they were not in school, are enormously helped in health, cleanliness, and prospects of life by being allowed to go into the elementary schools at an early age. At the present time, when women and girls, the natural caretakers of these children at home, are being employed in industry, many of them for long hours every day, and even seven days a week, to a far greater extent than ever before, we want to open our schools to the young and rising generation, and whatever economies we may be compelled to face in wartime, economy in education, to my mind, is one of the last which should be effected. The House only a few days ago heard a striking appeal from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. George's, Hanover Square. (Sir George Reid), who demanded that, whatever the Budget might do, more money should be provided for education. I believe it is the true spirit and the right and democratic ideal even in war-time that our national education should not be restricted, but should be maintained and made as generous and as wide as possible.
My hon. Friend has raised two questions, one of law and one of policy, relating to the exclusion of children under five years of age from certain schools in London. I understand my hon. Friend to put forward the contention that children between three and five years of age have a legal right to be admitted into the public elementary schools. He said, if I remember rightly, that to exclude them from these schools would be contrary to the spirit and the letter of the Acts of Parliament which deal with education.
I did not absolutely assert that right. I said that to exclude them on social considerations was against the legislation.
I beg my hon. Friend's pardon. I was under the impression he thought it was illegal to exclude these children. Of course, as a matter of fact, the Act in force at the present time makes it perfectly clear that this legal right exists with the local education authority, and, therefore, that matter is one which is entirely within the competence of those authorities, and the Board of Education have no right to interfere at all in regard to it. My hon. Friend asked whether the Board of Education had been consulted in this matter, and whether that which had been done by the local education authority for London was done with the approval of the Board of Education. My reply is that there was no consultation and no approval, because neither the one nor the other was necessary; it was a matter absolutely in the hands of the local education authority—it comes within the administrative powers of the London local education authority, and it is obviously one ever which the Board of Education has no control. My hon. Friend referred to the recommendations which have been made by the Retrenchment Committee with reference to the withdrawal of children under five years of age from public elementary schools. I regret that I am unable to enter into that question because that matter is, at the present moment, the subject of communications between the Board of Education and the Treasury, and that being so it would obviously be wrong for me to say anything that would appear in any way to prejudge issues which are now the subject of communication between those two authorities. The questions, as I have shown, which my hon. Friend has raised to-night are really matters which lie outside the competence and jurisdiction of the Board of Education, and I trust he will forgive me if, under the circumstances, I find myself unable to enter into matters which are not under the control of the Department for which I speak.
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-one minutes before Nine o'clock, until Tuesday next, 25th April, at a Quarter before Three o'clock.
Petition Presented
The following Petition was presented, and ordered to lie upon the Table:
Tuesday
Sale of Intoxicating Liquors during the War—petition from Galashiels, for prohibition.