House of Commons
Wednesday, May 10, 1916
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Local Government Provisional Order (No. 3) Bill,
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill,
Read a second time, and committed.
Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders Bill,
"To confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the General Pier and Harbour Act, 1861, relating to Ryde and Wicklow," presented by Mr. PRETYMAN; read the first time; and referred to the Examiner of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 40.]
SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE (IRELAND).
Return presented relative thereto [ordered 26th April; Mr. Montagu to lie upon the Table.
NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE COMMISSION (ENGLAND).
Copy presented of Regulations, dated 6th May, 1916, made by the Insurance Commissioners and the Welsh Insurance Commissioners, entitled the National Health Insurance (Deposit Contributors' Administration Expenses) Regulations, 1916 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
PENAL SERVITUDE ACTS (CONDITIONAL LICENCE).
Copy presented of a Licence granted to a Convict discharging her from Aylesbury Convict Prison on condition that she enters a home [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
ARUNDEL PORT.
Paper laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House:—Copy of Annual Report and General Account of the Commissioners of Arundel Port for period from 25th March, 1915, to 25th March, 1916 [by Act].
EAST INDIA (INDIA OFFICE, RETIREMENT AT SIXTY-FIVE).
Address for "Return of Copy of Minute by the Secretary of State for India, stating the circumstances under which a member of his permanent establishment has been retained in the service after he has attained the age of 65."—[ Mr. Chamberlain. ]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
WAR.
PRISONERS OF WAR (INTERNMENT IN SWITZERLAND).
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will now publish and circulate the agreement under which German and British prisoners of war will be sent to Switzerland; and also the list of diseases which will qualify for internment in that country?
The answer to both parts of the question asked by my hon. Friend is in the affirmative.
Can the Noble Lord say when?
I suppose almost immediately. I am not aware of any reason for delay.
BRITISH PRISONER CAMPS (BULGARIA AND TURKEY).
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Mr. Justice Younger's Committee on the British Red Cross Society have asked the International Red Cross Society at Geneva to pay visits of inspection to British prisoner camps in Bulgaria and Turkey, similar to those which they have paid to the German prisoners in Morocco and in this country; and, if so, what reply has been received from Geneva?
It is no part of the duty of the Committee over which Mr. Justice Younger presides to suggest visits by the International Committee of the Red Cross. I am not aware whether the British Red Cross Society, which is, as my hon. Friend knows, independent of the Government, have taken any action such as he suggests. The society will, however, notice the proposal which he has now made.
VISIT OF RUSSIAN STATESMEN.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Russian statesmen now visiting this country will be allowed to visit Ireland, to ascertain real public opinion as distinguished from that represented by the Press and to study the operation and effects of British rule there?
I understand arrangements have been made already for the Russian visit, to satisfy, as far as time allows, the wishes of the Russian guests. I am not aware that they have expressed the wish or opinion which the hon. Member's question presupposes.
Will the Noble Lord arrange to give these gentlemen an opportunity of studying the "one bright spot"?
DISTURBANCES IN IRELAND.
DEATH SENTENCES.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any official or other communication in the nature of remonstrance has yet been received from the American Government on the summary shooting of military prisoners in Ireland and apprehended retaliation on British representatives in America; and whether, on receipt of any such remonstrance, he will give prompt information to this House?
No communication has been received, and no promise can be made about a contingency which is purely hypothetical.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will state how many military prisoners have been executed for participation in the rebellion in Dublin; what was the alleged offence of those of them who were neither leaders nor signatories of the republican proclamation; what was the length of interval between capture, sentence, and execution; what facilities were afforded them for religious preparation for death; whether all were allowed the ministrations; of priests of their own choice; and whether any more are to be executed before this House is afforded an opportunity of discussing the matter?
Official statements which answer the first part of this question have already been made public. I am not in a position to give the information asked for in the body of the question; and, as regards the last part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said on the 8th May. My right hon. Friend is answering other questions on this subject to-day.
Has the right hon. Gentleman not taken any action on the latter part of the question?
Does the number of executions published include the case of Mr. Sheehy-Skeffiington and two others who were murdered, without any form of trial, by a subordinate officer?
I do not know whether it did or did not include the case of Mr. Skeffington or the others. My right hon. Friend is going to give an answer on that subject to-day.
IRISH VOLUNTEER TRAINING CORPS.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in the fight on Easter Monday in Dublin, six men belonging to the Irish Volunteer Training Corps were killed and eleven wounded; whether a number of the corps were in the local barracks, and assisted in the defence of the same for nine days; and whether the Government will see that these men get Army pay for the period they were on duty, and the men wounded and injured get full Army allowances for their dependants?
I have not yet been able to obtain information asked for in the first part of the question, and I can, in the absence of information as to the facts, make no statement on the point raised in the last part of the question.
ARRESTS.
asked how many male and how many female persons have been arrested in Ireland in connection with the recent rebellion and are now imprisoned in England; when will they be tried; and in what courts?
These figures are not at present available, but I will see if it is possible to obtain them. I cannot yet make a statement with regard to the last two parts of the question.
Will they be tried in a civil court?
I have said that I could not say.
UNION OF DEMOCRATIC CONTROL AND NO-CONSCRIPTION FELLOWSHIP.
asked the Prime Minister if he will now take steps to suppress the Union of Democratic Control, the No-Conscription Fellowship, and any other association the effect of whose operations is to assist the enemy by weakening the national effort and determination to win the War, having regard to the disaster that has occurred in Ireland?
The Prime Minister has asked me to reply to this question. I have no power to suppress either of the organisations referred to in the question, but any illegal action on their part could and would be made the subject of prosecution.
COMPENSATION TO PROPERTY OWNERS (DUBLIN).
asked the Prime Minister if he can yet say how soon a body of men of business experience will be set up to ascertain the extent of damage done to property in Dublin in quelling the recent insurrection and direct the work of restoration and repair; whether a portion of the £340,000,000 excessive taxes extracted from Ireland, according to the findings of the Financial Relations Commission, is to be applied to these purposes; and whether the Irish people will be allowed any voice in the selection of members of the body to be charged with these duties
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that there is a feeling in Dublin that the Government should compensate the owners of property for the loss and damage sustained in the recent disturbances; and what steps he proposes to take in the matter?
asked the Prime Minister whether he will take into immediate consideration the question of providing out of public funds compensation for the recent destruction of property in Dublin, in view of the fact that the ratepayers of the city, if liable at all, would be wholly unable to make good the loss, and that the owners of the property destroyed were in no Way to blame for the disaster which has befallen them?
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the Council of the Chamber of Commerce, Dublin, have passed a resolution asking for compensation in respect of property destroyed in the city during the recent disturbances; and whether he is prepared to state what steps will be taken by the Government?
This question is engaging the careful attention of the new Under-Secretary (Sir Robert Chalmers), and in due course I will communicate the Government's decision to the House.
Will the right hon. Gentleman be kind enought to receive a deputation of Dublin Members on this subject, as it is very urgent?
Yes, I will.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the suggestion in Question 54 that the sum by which Ireland has been overtaxed, as found by the Financial Relations Commission, will be drawn upon for compensation?
NOTTS AND DERBY REGIMENT.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he has received any report of the gallant conduct of the Notts and Derby Regiment during the recent fighting in Dublin?
No; but, as I stated yesterday, the gallant conduct of all the troops engaged in the recent fighting will, no doubt be placed on record in Sir J. Maxwell's Report on the operations.
Are not the circumstances of firing from houses calculated to try the most experienced troops, and was not the conduct of the troops particularly gallant?
I have just said so.
GENERAL MAXWELL'S POWERS.
asked the Prime Minister if he will define the plenary powers with which General Maxwell is invested in Ireland; and whether before debate on this subject the House will be furnished with copies of all the orders issued by General Maxwell in Ireland, and with a full list of the unarmed civilians killed after the rebels had surrendered?
With regard to the first part of the question, General Maxwell's powers were contained in a letter from the Army Council dated 28th April and in a proclamation suspending in Ireland the operations of Section 1 of the Defence of the Realm Act, 1915, which was published in the "London Gazette" of the 26th April. I will circulate a copy of the former document with the OFFICIAL REPORT.—[ See Written Answers. ]
I will have the information asked for in the second part of the question collected and communicated to the House as soon as possible, I am not certain what information the hon. Member refers to in the last part of his question, but it is hoped to issue a complete list of casualties, military and civil, to-morrow.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say who exercises General Maxwell's powers in his absence in London?
He has not been absent in London—only a few hours.
( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister whether he can give an undertaking that no more military executions by secret military tribunals will take place in Ireland, and whether he can let the House know whether any executions have taken place since those which were carried out on Monday morning last?
As I stated yesterday, I cannot give the undertaking asked for by the hon. Gentleman. The trials by court-martial of those who took an active part in the rising in Dublin are practically finished, and, beyond two sentences which have already been confirmed, we have the best reasons for hoping and believing that there may be no further necessity to proceed with the extreme penalty.
I desire to put some further questions of which also I have given private notice. It may be for the convenience of the Prime Minister that I should put them all together.
I am afraid I cannot answer them all.
I will read them all together. They are as follows:— (1) Whether any prisoners have been shot without trial or have been shot after trial without any public announcement of their names, and, if so, how many; (2) Whether there is any, and, if any, what authority with power to check or control the military officers now ruling Ireland; whether the Lord Lieutenant or any officials of the Irish Government have any authority over them; and how long it is proposed to maintain this military dictatorship; (3) On what ground the whole of Ireland has been placed under martial law, and why searches of houses and wholesale arrests are being carried out in districts where there was no disturbance and in which the population remained peaceful and loyal; (4) Whether he can state the circumstances under which Mr. Sheehy-Skeffington was shot at Portobello Barracks; (5) Whether he can explain why Sir Roger Casement has been brought to London, and is apparently to have a public trial before a civil tribunal, whilst comparatively obscure men whom he has been largely responsible for seducing into rebellion have been sentenced and executed in Ireland by secret military tribunal; and (6) Whether the censorship is preventing the publication of expressions of opinion from the United States of America and other neutral countries on the policy of the military executions in Dublin?
I desire to raise a point of Order. I understand that private notice questions are not allowed to be put except upon matters of urgency. I submit that, at any rate, three out of four of these questions are not on matters of urgency, and might quite well be put on the Notice Paper. I desire to ask you, Sir, why the rules which apply to us should not also apply to the hon. Member for East Mayo?
The hon. Member for East Mayo did not give me a copy of any of these questions, as, following the ordinary procedure, he ought to have done; but I rather think that the majority of these questions are urgent. It is very difficult to say, having only just heard them in this way, and not having had sufficient time to consider them, but I think that I should probably have held that certainly the greater part of them were urgent.
I desire to apologise to you, Sir, and to assure you that if I failed to send you notice of the questions it was not from any want of courtesy, but simply because I have taken little part in the proceedings of the House for some time, and have fallen somewhat out of touch with the procedure.
I think that, perhaps, I also might have had rather longer notice of these questions. They reached me only at half-past twelve today.
I could not get away from Dublin.
I am not complaining in the least. I will answer those that I can. With regard to the first question, as far as I know the answer is in the negative.
Has the Prime Minister inquired whether two other innocent men, Mr. McIntyre and Mr. Dixon, have received trial or have been shot?
I am going to deal with that. This question refers to prisoners, and my answer is confined to them.
As to Question 3, I must have an opportunity of inquiring, and I must ask the hon. Member to supply me with particulars.
In reply to Question 2, the General Officer Commanding in Ireland is under the authority of His Majesty's Government. With regard to the second part of the question, the General Officer Commanding acts in constant consultation and concert with the civilian officials of the Irish Government.
In regard to the last part of the question, it is the earnest hope of the Government that normal conditions may be resumed at the earliest possible moment.
In regard to the case of Mr. Sheehy-Skeffington—which was also raised yesterday by the hon. Member for Burnley—of which I had heard nothing before, I tele- graphed at once or caused a telegram to be sent to the General Officer Commanding, and I have received this answer this morning: Skeffington was shot on morning 26th April, without the knowledge of the military authorities. The matter is now under investigation. The officer concerned has been under arrest since the 6th May as soon as the report of the occurrence was received. Directions have been given to bring his case before a court-martial.
He should be handed over to the civil authorities as an ordinary murderer.
This is apparently an isolated act, and the responsible officer, so far as we know—I am not prejudging the matter—as soon as the report was received, was at once put under arrest and will be brought before a court-martial. The House may be certain that justice, or whatever justice requires, will be done. With regard to the cases referred to by the hon and learned Member for Cork (Mr. T. M. Healy), which are alleged to have taken place at the same time and under the same conditions, the same procedure will be pursued. I have not yet got, although I telegraphed for them, particulars with regard to these cases, but I believe it is alleged that the same officer was responsible. The military authorities—General Maxwell and the officers in command—not only have no responsibility for, but no knowledge of, this occurrence. As soon as it was brought to their knowledge they at once put the officer concerned under arrest.
The answer to Question 6 is in the negative.
In regard to Sir Roger Casement (Question No. 5), this is a very serious matter, as it affects a man who is under suspicion and about to undergo his trial. I therefore think in fairness to all parties I should have a little more notice of this question.
The right hon. Gentleman did not reply to one important question, and that was whether there have been any executions in Dublin since Monday morning? There is no news at all from Dublin in this morning's papers, and for some of us that is rather a serious sign. I would ask whether the right hon. Gentleman can say whether there have been any further executions?
No, Sir; so far as I know, not.
I rise to ask the Prime Minister now whether he can state the result of his inquiries in reference to the message which I read to the House yesterday as to the military excesses?
Yes, Sir. In reply to a message I have received this: The Editor of 'Cork Examiner' has not been arrested nor has his paper been suppressed. Arrested men in Cork Prison are allowed daily exercise as recommended by the medical authorities. Prisoners are allowed to see their clergymen. No protests have been made by civil authorities or brother officers against Captain Harvest's treatment of prisoners. The prisoners will be arraigned and tried in accordance with procedure approved by His Majesty's Government. No insurrection has taken place in Cork. Captain Harvest is carrying out his duties to the satisfaction of the General Officer commanding Queenstown and Cork.
What is the meaning of all that, Sir? I never for a moment suggested that the editor of the "Cork Examiner" had been arrested, or his newspaper suppressed. What I did suggest, and what I did ask for, was whether a raid by the military had not been made upon the office of the "Cork Free Press," which, from the beginning of the War to this moment, has faced unpopularity and heavy loss in order to preach friendship with England, and for which—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"]—
The hon. Member must not take this opportunity of making a speech, but must ask a question.
Yes, Sir. Then I ask whether the Prime Minister has any information as to the question which I did ask, namely, as to the outrage on the "Cork Free Press"?
There is a suggestion or imputation of hypocrisy against us as a party in this matter of the raid on the office of the "Cork Free Press." The suggestion that we have been in some way involved in this business we regard as an imputation of hypocrisy.
The hon. Member is not asking a question; he is giving information, and that is out of order.
I am sorry if I misunderstood the matter, but I understood the reference was to the "Cork Examiner." However, I will inquire about the "Cork Free Press."
Will the Government convey a hint to the right quarters in Cork that they do not there want irresponsible panic-mongers to goad the people of one of the friendliest districts in Ireland into violence by this stupid policy of frightfulness?
I would like to ask the Prime Minister a question, of which I have given him private notice; whether, seeing that large numbers of Irish Catholic prisoners—
That does not appear to me to be an urgent question.
It has relevance to the—
The hon. Member will perhaps put it on the Paper.
PEACE PROPOSALS.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether he has any official information to the effect that the King of Bavaria and the King of Saxony have taken the initiative for an intervention by the Pope in favour of peace; and whether any communications with the same end in view are reaching the Foreign Office from other diplomatic sources?
The answer is in the negative.
asked the Prime Minister whether he can furnish the House of Commons with particulars of the statement made by the German Government in its recent Note to the United States Government that twice within the past few months she has announced before the world her readiness to make peace on a basis of self-guarding Germany's vital interests?
The paragraph in the German Note to the United States Government appears to refer to the statements made by the German Chancellor in his speeches of 9th December and 5th April. I have dealt with these statements in my speech on 10th April and have nothing to add to it.
EDIBLE AND OIL-PRODUCING NUTS AND SEEDS (REPORT).
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when the Report of the Committee on Edible and Oil-producing Nuts and Seeds will be presented to Parliament and circulated to Members?
The Report has now been signed and I am considering it. I hope to lay it before Parliament at a very early date.
DISTURBANCES IN CEYLON.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why the petition of Sinhalese gentlemen for an English inquiry into disturbances in connection with a Buddhist temperance procession in Ceylon last year has not yet been granted; how many persons were killed during the few days of the riots; how many were, without trial, shot, flogged, and imprisoned, respectively, under martial law after the riots had ceased; of those executed how many were not charged with having caused the death of any person; under what law was this done; what aggregate amount of money was exacted under the names of fines, security, deposit, etc.; whether the report of the Governor, Sir Robert Chalmers, is available for independent examination; and whether any inquiry in which the Sinhalese would have confidence will be held?
As regards the petition received from certain Sinhalese, I have nothing to add to the reply to the hon. Member for Attercliffe on the 5th April. I am not aware that any persons were shot, flogged or imprisoned without trial after the riots had ceased; a certain number were arrested on suspicion and afterwards released, but I have not precise figures. Information as to the number of persons killed, the number executed and on what counts, and the amount of the compensation exacted for damage to property will be found in the correspondence presented to Parliament, which also contains the report of the Governor.
Does the right hon. Gentleman question the facts set forth in the petition which he mentions, and, if he questions them, supported as they are by oath, why not prosecute the gentlemen whose names are on that petition?
I do not accept the facts, and I do not think that the mere fact that statements are made is a sufficient reason for having an inquiry such as suggested.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Governor of Ceylon at that time is the same gentleman who has gone to Dublin Castle?
ROYAL DOCKYARD, GIBRALTAR (EMPLOYÉS' REMUNERATION).
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is now in a position to give the decision of their lordships as regards the remuneration of men entered locally at the Royal Dockyard, Gibraltar; is he aware that the war bonus for labourers at Gibraltar is 6d. and for mechanics is. a week; and, seeing that the price of food, is the same for labourers and mechanics, can he see his way to place both classes of men on the 1s. rate?
All the locally entered employés at Gibraltar whose wages do not exceed 20s. 6d. a week have now been given a war bonus of 10 per cent. on their pay in lieu of the bonuses of 6d. and 1s. a week previously approved. This raises the war bonus of all the labourers to at least 1s. a week.
FROZEN MEAT ACCOMMODATION (EGYPT).
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty why, in view of the need for tonnage, large ships are being used as warehouses at Alexandria?
No vessels under the control of the Admiralty are used as warehouses at Alexandria, with the occasional exception of vessels with refrigerated space required, in view of the small accommodation for frozen meat in Egypt.
Why was an expert sent out by the Government last month in order to see what ships could be released which were being used for this purpose?
I cannot say. The answer I have given states the case that, because of the lack of accommodation, it has been occasionally necessary to use refrigerating space.
Does that only apply to meat ships?
That I cannot say.
MESOPOTAMIA OPERATIONS (BRITISH AEROPLANES).
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the German reports as to the shooting down by the Turks of old British aeroplanes endeavouring to get food into Kut; whether these aeroplanes are some which did reconnaissance work in the Sinai district but were so bad that they were transferred from there to Mesopotamia more than a month ago, being replaced by new machines in the Egyptian Army?
I very much regret that I have not been able to get my answers down in time to give the answers to the House of Commons. I should like to inform the House that I have been engaged in drafting the answers to my questions since I left the Local Government Board, where we had a conference on the Military Service Bill, until this moment, and it has been impossible for the War Office to get the answers typewritten in time. The consequence is that they have not yet come down. I have told them to send the answers down, as I drafted them in my own hand, at once, so that I hope they will be here immediately. It was impossible to get the work done in the time.
I am sure that the House sympathises with the right hon. Gentleman.
Arising out of this rather unusual position, is there no means by which at a later stage in the sitting we might have the answers in their proper form as usual?
I think the best plan will be to go through the questions, and by the time we have got through them once, perhaps the answers may have come down.
After Question 81 had been answered,
Perhaps we may make an exception upon this occasion and go back to Question 10, as I understand that the right hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary of State for War has now got his answers.
repeated the question (No. 10).
A recent Turkish Communiqué stated that the dropping of flour into Kut by aeroplane was stopped by Turkish battleplanes shooting down the British machines. The General Officer Commanding in Mesopotamia reports that between the 11th and 29th of April the British aeroplanes of the Royal Flying Corps and Royal Naval Air Service dropped into Kut-el-Amara 16,800 lbs. of food, in addition to quantities of medical and other stores and mails. No aeroplanes already in use in Egypt or the Sinai district were sent to Mesopotamia, though some of the personnel were. During these operations there were numerous aerial combats, in one of which a British seaplane was driven down in the enemy's lines, the observer being killed and the pilot wounded. On another occasion the pilot of a British machine was wounded and his machine damaged, but he succeeded in landing safely behind the British lines. These were the only casualties suffered during the operation. The House will thus see that this is a characteristic German report.
Seeing that we have so many of these characteristic German reports, could the right hon. Gentleman, for the benefit of the entire nation, make occasionally some such satisfactory statement as he has just made? It would not have been made if the question had not been put down.
I will give it my consideration.
RATION ALLOWANCES.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether the ration allowance to men of the antiaircraft detachments in the London district has been reduced from 1s. 9d. to 1s. 7d.; whether with this sum the men are unable to supply themselves with rations equal in amount to the rations issued by the authorities, and are having to supplement them out of their pay; and whether he will consider the possibility of making more adequate allowance?
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office why the allowance for soldiers messed regimentally or by local authorities has been reduced from 1s. 9d. to 1s. 7d.?
I am in the same case as my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for War in that my answers have not arrived, but I think I can answer the question without waiting for the draft. It is quite correct that the ration allowance has been reduced from 1s. 9d. to 1s. 7d. That follows from the reduction in the ration itself. As the ration has been reduced by ¼lb. of meat it appeared to me that there was no occasion to continue to pay the full amount of the ration allowance.
Is this deduction made outside the London area as well?
Yes, Sir.
NAVAL AND MILITARY SERVICES (PENSIONS AND GRANTS).
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War what family allowances were made to soldiers before the War in 1914; on what date were the amounts first increased and to what scale; and what are the present allowances to soldiers' wives and children?
The information asked for by my hon. Friend is contained in Appendix D of the Separation Allowance Regulations. I am sending him a copy of this Appendix.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether Robert Owen Davies, of 21, Garnon Street, Carnarvon, No. 2139, 6th Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers, who was wounded at Suvla Bay, discharged from the Army on 23rd February last as medically unfit, has received no allowance since 18th February; and whether, in view of the man's health, he will give immediate instructions that the proper allowance be paid him?
I am making inquiries into this case, and will let my hon. Friend know the result.
INDIA (EXPORTS OF JUTE TO SPAIN).
asked the Secretary of State for India whether the scarcity of jute and of sacks resulting from restrictions imposed upon exports from Calcutta is causing inconvenience in Spain; and, if so, whether he will consider the possibility of arranging to mitigate such inconvenience to a friendly nation?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. Arrangements have recently been made to increase substantially the exports of jute to Spain, and the inconvenience referred to by my hon. Friend will now, I trust, be removed.
ARMY SERVICE CORPS.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that non-commissioned officers in the Army Service Corps who served on the Gallipoli Peninsula and are now back in Egypt have been reduced to their original rank and original pay, which also adversely affects the separation allowance to their families; and whether he will make inquiries into the matter and see whether these men can be permitted to retain the rank to which they were promoted?
I assume my right hon. Friend must be referring to acting rank; if so, I would take the liberty of referring him to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for the Altrincham Division on the 8th of May, and also to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for the Houghton-le-Spring Division on the 2nd September. No cases of the reduction of rank have come to the knowledge of the War Office, and I imagine that where rank has been given up it has been nothing but acting rank.
MILITARY SERVICE.
NON-COMBATANT CORPS.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that on 2nd May a non-commissioned officer at the non-combatant camp, Weymouth, informed the men of that corps that on 28th April 107 men of that corps had been sent to France, and of these seventy had already been shot when sent out in front of the advance trenches to mend barbed wire; whether he has any official information on this matter; and whether, in view of previous statements made on the work of the Non-Combatant Corps, he will say whether it is intended to expose this corps to such work that its numbers may be regularly reduced at the rate of 70 per cent. per week?
I am really surprised that my hon. Friend should introduce into a serious question a piece of sheer camp gossip such as that which he has reproduced in the first part of this question. Three companies of the Non-Combatant Corps, about 300 strong, were sent to France at the end of April, and the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the British Armies in France had previously received instructions from the Army Council that these men were not to be employed in the firing line, and there is no reason to suppose that these instructions have not been scrupulously carried out.
Does my right hon. Friend not realise that the point of my question is not whether this is a fact, but whether a non-commissioned officer stated it to his men as a fact without fear of contradiction?
I think he must have been indulging in a sally into the realms of humour.
OFFICERS' TRAINING CORPS (RECRUITING SUSPENDED).
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that numbers of men of the type suitable for officers attested at recruiting offices at the end of last year under the group system on the instructions of the Inns of Court Officers' Training Corps, being given a Government certificate of acceptance, with instructions to report to the Officers' Training Corps when their group was called up; whether, now the group has been called, recruiting for the Officers' Training Corps has been suspended and these men have been told off to go into the ranks; and, if so, what steps he proposes to remedy such a repudiation of a direct contract?
No Government certificate was ever given that any man would on being called up be accepted for the Inns of Court Officers' Training Corps, or, indeed, for any other unit. What wag said to the men referred to was, I understand, said on the authority of the officer commanding the Inns of Court Officers' Training Corps only, and was to the effect that, under the conditions then existing, the men in question would be accepted for enlistment in this corps. Before this undertaking, if undertaking it can be called, could be fulfilled the corps was closed for enlistment by orders issued by the War Office. I will send the hon. Gen- tleman a paper giving the conditions under which commissions are granted, and he will see from this that they can be obtained from the ranks as well as from the Officers' Training Corps.
Where are we now to send men who seek for commissions? I understand the Officers' Training Corps are refusing men.
All men who are candidates for commissions must either go through the ranks of an Officers' Training Corps or through the ranks of the Army, and as the Inns of Court are closed there is very little opportunity of getting commissions.
Are there any other corps?
The Artists sometimes has vacancies, and so has the Inns of Court, but not at present.
TIME-EXPIRED MEN.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if a time-expired non-commissioned officer of a Territorial regiment on being recalled to the Colours will retain the rank with which he was discharged, or, if not, would it be the case if he were called up from Section D of the Reserve?
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether noncommissioned officers who are now recalled to the Colours will be re-entertained in the rank they previously enjoyed, and in the same branch of the Service?
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if time-expired men recalled to the Colours under the Military Service Bill will be permitted to rejoin their old regiments?
The intention is to treat ex-non-commissioned officers who are recalled to the Colours from civilian life in exactly the same way as they would have been treated if they had been recalled from the Reserve, i.e., they will rejoin with the rank they held on discharge. Time-expired men will as far as possible be sent to their former regiment or corps, but no guarantee of this can be given.
Will the same just treatment be meted out to men who attained officers' rank in the South African War, and were recalled to the Colours?
That is a different question, which ought to be put down.
asked the Under - Secretary of State for War whether, in the cases of time-expired men under the new Military Service Bill, they will be allowed an extra leave before commencing their new period of service?
I believe that my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board will make a statement on this matter in Committee to-day.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, under the new Military Service Bill, time-expired men of military age who served a number of years in the Volunteer Force who enlisted in the Regular Army for the duration of the South African War and saw active service, and ultimately received an Army discharge certificate, will be liable to be called up for service?
The answer is yes, provided the men are under forty-one years of age.
ATTESTED MARRIED MEN OF FORTY-ONE.
asked whether attested married men under the Derby scheme who attain the age of forty-one years before the date on which they are to join the Colours are exempt from military service?
If a man attains his forty-first birthday before he receives the individual notice calling him up for service, he would not be taken for service under existing conditions, but would remain in the Reserve. He would, however, be liable to be called up if it should happen that the standard of age for military service were raised in the future.
MENTALLY DEFICIENT.
asked the Under-Secretary for War if he is aware that a man named J. Rickett, a native of Quendon, Essex, has been accepted and enrolled for military service in spite of the fact that the authorities have been warned by the rector of the parish and others that Rickett is mentally deficient, that there are several cases of lunacy in his family, and that he may become dangerous; and will he say what steps have been or will be taken to investigate the local representations with regard to the man referred to?
If, as the hon. Gentleman suggests, the responsible local military and medical authorities were warned that Rickett was mentally deficient, I feel sure that steps must have been taken to investigate these reports. The hon. Member's question contains no statement that the representations were not investigated, and I do not think there is any primâ facie case for any action on my part.
CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS.
asked how many young men are now in military prisons and suffering privations and punishments for conscience sake?
This information is not in possession of the War Office.
asked whether Mr. Rendel Wyatt, a young schoolmaster in a Quaker school, a conscientious objector under the Military Service Act, has been arrested and imprisoned, and made to scrub floors and carry coal for fourteen or fifteen hours a day; whether he has since been given a month on bread and water and put in irons for refusing to drill; whether he is now in a dark cell with twelve others; and whether such treatment is in accordance with Regulations?
The hon. Member for York is putting a question on this question to the Prime Minister to-morrow. Perhaps my hon. Friend will await that reply, as I am unable to supply the information.
asked the Under-Secretary for War whether he is aware that Oscar Gristwood Ricketts, a conscientious objector to military service, was arrested, charged at Brentford Police Court, fined two guineas, and handed over to the military authorities, and that in conveying him to Felixstowe they exposed him to the shame of being handcuffed in the public streets and railways; whether he is now in the Harwich circular redoubt, confined to a cell, and his only food dry biscuits and water; whether this young man has resigned a good post in a city bank and offered himself for any work of national importance that is consistent with his religious and moral convictions; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
asked the Under-Secretary for War (1) if he will make an immediate inquiry into the treatment of a number of conscientious objectors who belong to Darwen, Lancashire, who were taken to the military barracks at Preston and there subjected to the grossest ill-treatment, being forcibly stripped and marched round the barrack square practically undressed, and after being put in uniform one of them was taken into a room and, on the testimony of a person there, brutally kicked around the room until his groans could be heard outside; in view of the fact that statements of similar and worse treatment of conscientious objectors are coming from many other districts, will he take immediate steps to have this brutal conduct on the part of the military stopped and proper punishment meted out to those responsible for it; and (2) what action he has taken upon the allegations of D. S. Parkes, a conscientious objector to military service, who has been convicted by a district court-martial at Winchester on charges of refusal to obey military orders; that on his arrest under the Military Service Act, 1916, he was placed in the guardroom at Whitehall and informed that he would be shot at dawn for refusing to give information demanded; that he was insulted by the non-commissioned officer in charge of the guard-room, who also placed a bayonet to his heart; that he was then taken into another room, where a rifle was pointed at him, and then he was told that he was graciously pardoned; that this action was repeated later, a rifle being loaded in his presence and an order given to a soldier to fire; and, if no action has been taken upon these serious allegations, will he order a thorough inquiry at once into the alleged conduct of the non-commissioned officers and soldiers who tortured this man?
asked the Under-Secretary for War (1) concerning an absentee under the Military Service Act, 1916, named Alan J. M'Dougall, who was handed over to the military authorities on 25th April last, and who afterwards, at Scotland Yard, refused to sign attestation papers and was, notwithstanding this refusal, passed for general service and sent to the depot of the 4/3rd London Regiment, where he was mishandled by some soldiers and who afterwards forcibly put khaki clothes on him, if he will say where Alan M'Dougall is now; whether he is awaiting or has undergone court-martial; if not, what has been done with him; (2) if he is aware that Norman Gaudie, a conscientious objector, of Sunderland, who was fined £2 at Jarrow Police Court and handed over to the military authorities on 19th April and was subsequently taken to Newcastle Barracks and from there to. Richmond Castle, has been subjected to severe treatment, his own clothes torn off and khaki clothes forced on him, and afterwards put in irons on account of his resistance and handcuffed; whether he will cause inquiries to be made into the conduct of the military authorities concerned with the object of preventing the continuance of this method of treating conscientious objectors; and (3) what has become of W. Hammond, a conscientious objector, who was arrested on 17th April last, tried on 18th April, fined £2, and handed over to the military authorities, was afterwards taken to Mill Hill Barracks and from there to Northampton, where he was put in the guard-room for seven days, was on hunger strike and without food for five days, as the result of which he had to be removed to a military hospital, and was due to be tried by court-martial on 2nd May?
I am going to make an appeal to my hon. Friends, and to Members in all quarters of the House, not to press me for answers to these and similar questions involving inquiries into the cases of individuals. The labour involved in procuring answers to such inquiries is enormous. No such staff is available at present, and, if the House considers that answers to inquiries of this kind should be secured, a special staff will become necessary. I am reluctant any further to ask officials, not only in the War Office, but in the various commands, to undertake work of this kind in addition to that with which they are already overburdened. I should be the last person to wish, in ordinary circumstances, to see the curtailment of the rights of private Members to ask legitimate questions, but I must frankly say that, in many instances, among the questions to which I am now specially referring, in place of a legitimate desire for information, the tendency has been rather towards the conveyance of information to me. This seems to me to defeat the legitimate functions of questions in the House.
Are these men then to continue to be tortured because inquiry may involve a little trouble at the War Office? What is to be done if we are not to be allowed to bring these questions; before the House?
Of course, I am entirely in the hands of the House. I only make an appeal to hon. Gentlemen to do anything they can to facilitate the overwhelming burden of the work we have to perform. If they will do that, I shall be glad, but if they press me to get the answers for them I have no other course but to carry out the desires of hon. Gentlemen.
Are we not to put questions to protect the rights of individuals?
Cannot the right hon. Gentleman see that the best way to avoid all trouble is to put a stop to the practice at once by making an example of the men who are guilty of this torture?
Are we to understand that the cases are so very numerous that they require a special staff?
Yes, Sir. The questions are perfectly enormous. You have only to go through the Order Paper to-day to see. I have been kept at the War Office the whole morning trying to get answers to the questions, and I was not able to get through by a quarter to three.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say what means these many individuals can have of obtaining redress of grievances if they cannot be brought to the notice of this House?
Will the right hon. Gentleman say what steps a Member can take when he has brought before his notice what he believes to be cases of illegal and very brutal treatment? Are they to be disregarded because of waste of time?
What do they deserve?
Hon. Gentlemen should make themselves really acquainted with the facts before they put them down as questions on the Order Paper. If they took this trouble my notice list would be very much curtailed.
Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to suggest that the questions should be sent to him at the War Office, and not put upon the Order Paper?
The same trouble would be involved in getting answers.
Will the right hon. Gentleman grant facilities to Members to make personal inquiry into the conditions to which these men are being subjected, so that they can find out the facts for themselves?
I am asking the House not to believe all this tittle-tattle.
VOLUNTARY FIRE BRIGADES (EXEMPTION OF MEMBERS).
asked the Under-Secretary for War whether, in granting exemptions to members of authorised fire brigades, the voluntary fire brigades of the local authorities are included; and, if not, is he aware that large and important munition areas are entirely served by these voluntary brigades, and that the undue depletion of these brigades of trained men will be a menace to the localities?
No special privileges are given to part time firemen engaged in a voluntary fire brigade. Such men can, if they so desire, apply to the local tribunal for certificates of exemption. Such exemption can be granted on the ground of the man's work as a fireman being his principal and usual occupation. A full-time fireman solely employed as a permanent fireman engaged in a voluntary fire brigade can claim the privileges given by the list of certified occupations, except in the case of a single man under the age of twenty-five, who has no special privileges after 1st July, 1916. The importance of safeguarding munition areas has been fully recognised, but in view of the fact that the British Fire Prevention Committee consider that the reasonable time for training a substitute for a fireman, of military age in a voluntary fire brigade is only two months, it is hoped that other men not eligible for enlistment will be trained to perform fire brigade duties.
YOUNG MEN IN GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.
asked the Prime Minister whether there are still large numbers of young men of military age in Government Departments; and, if so, whether they can be released for service and their places taken by married men or by wounded soldiers?
I am doing my utmost to expedite the return promised on this subject. I regret to say that some Departments have not yet sent in the material required. I hope to present, at any rate, a provisional return at an early date. In the meantime, I am informed that in all Departments every effort consistent with the efficiency of the Service is being made to release men for military purposes.
SPECIAL ALLOWANCES.
asked the Prime Minister whether he can provide an opportunity to the House to discuss the provisions of special allowances for men called up under the Military Service Bill before that Bill leaves this House?
No, Sir; I am afraid it will not be possible to adopt this suggestion.
Are not those of us who represent those married men among our constituents entitled to discuss what they should get before the Government come to a decision?
I do not think that it can be discussed before the Military Service Bill leaves the House.
Will my right hon. Friend give us an opportunity of discussing it before the tribunals are finally elected?
I will consider that.
Thanks, very much.
EXEMPTION CLAIMS.
asked whether the men rejected for military service subsequent to 15th August, 1915, who are made liable to military service by the Military Service Bill, will be given the opportunity of claiming exemption before the tribunals before they are called up for military service?
The Prime Minister has asked me to reply to this question. The answer is in the affirmative.
UNMARRIED SONS.
asked the Prime Minister (1) whether he will take steps to insert in the Military Service Bill provisions to carry out his pledge to single unmarried sons who are the support and stay of mothers, sisters, and other relatives and so prevent tribunals bringing his authority into disrespect by disregard- ing the same in a similar fashion to those refusing exemption under the present Act; and (2) whether he will insert provisions in the Military Service Bill to exempt only sons of widows and to exempt the last remaining sons in families?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Blackburn on the 13th April to which I cannot add anything.
TIME-EXPIRED MEN.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether time-expired men recalled to the Colours under the Military Service Bill will not be given more than thirty days' notice?
Time-expired men recalled under the conditions stated would be liable to be called up at any time after the appointed day.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that a little longer than thirty days should be given to these men who have already left the Service before the Act comes into operation, and are probably now in business or other occupations?
That is really a matter for debate. It was debated yesterday. I do not think that I can go back on the decision that was arrived at.
MEDICAL UNFITNESS.
asked what arrangements have been made for men of all ranks who have been discharged from the Army on account of medical unfitness to receive a distinctive badge so as to indicate that during the War they have been engaged on military duty?
I am unable at present to add anything to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for the Wirral Division of Cheshire on the 28th March.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether men attested under the group system who, in anticipation and before they have been actually called up, have been medically examined by the medical board at the headquarters of the recruiting area and rejected by such board as unfit for any service will, under Clause 3 (2) of the Military Service Bill, 1916, be notified that they need not again present themselves for medical examination?
Men rejected and unfit for any form of military service are given a card showing that they have been found unfit. They will not be again called up.
JAW INJURIES (SOLDIERS).
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will state how many hospitals there are in this country where jaw injuries which have been suffered by our soldiers can be treated by general surgeons and dental surgeons acting in concurrent collaboration, and how many of such hospitals have been established by the French surgical and dental authorities; and whether he is aware that serious jaw injuries can be better treated by general surgeons and dental surgeons acting in concurrent collaboration than by ordinary surgical treatment?
In all hospital centres arrangements have been made for jaw injuries to be treated by general surgeons and dental surgeons, acting in concurrent collaboration. I am unable to say how many special hospitals have been established in France. As regards the last part of the question, my medical advisers are fully aware that cases of the kind in question are best treated by surgeons and dental surgeons acting in collaboration.
INVALID PRISONERS OF WAR.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, in order to save time, he will instruct the medical officers in all prisoner camps in Great Britain to prepare a list of those invalid prisoners of war who, in their opinion, should be sent to Switzerland, subject to the confirmation of that opinion by the commission of neutral doctors when they arrive?
What my hon. Friend suggests has already been done.
Where is it to be found?
I will give the hon. Member the figures.
LIGHT MILITARY DUTIES.
asked the Under Secretary of State for War what light duties consist of in the case of soldiers passed by a Medical Board for such; and whether they include guards?
The only men marked for light duty are those who, on discharge from hospital, are not fit for field duty. Such men are sent to command or regimental depots, where they are given graduated exercises to enable them to regain their fitness. They are not employed on guard.
ROYAL FIELD ARTILLERY.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the ten weeks which have elapsed since he instituted inquiry concerning the case of No. 14756, Gunner F. Ellender, Royal Field Artillery, have enabled him to ascertain the facts of the case; and if he can now say what steps have been, or will be, taken to transfer this boy to a unit at home until he reaches military age?
Orders have been given by the 3rd Echelon of General Headquarters for this man to be transferred to England. He does not, however, appear to have arrived in this country, and a telegram has been sent to the 3rd Echelon asking how he is situated.
AIR SERVICES.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that an official communiqué was issued by the Field Marshal Commanding-in-Chief, Home Forces, on the 3rd of May, in which it was announced that on that day a hostile aeroplane dropped six bombs on the railway station at Deal, whereas in fact no bomb was dropped on the railway station or did any damage there; if he will say how this inaccurate report came to be included in an official communiqué; and why in this instance the practice hitherto observed of not mentioning by name the exact locality where bombs are dropped, was departed from?
If the railway station at Deal did not have bombs dropped on to it, that was so much the better for the railway station. The first telegraphic reports received led to the belief that the bombs had fallen on, instead of near, the station. As regards the last part of the question, I am not clear whether the hon. Member desires that names of localities should, or should not, be mentioned as a general rule. In any case, it rests with the military authorities to decide whether the names may, or may not, be given.
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the part of the question which asks how it came about that an inaccurate report was given, and whether we may trust that in the future official communiqués will be accurate?
It occurred through a telegram being received at general headquarters, I suppose, from a reporter who was a rather inaccurate observer.
asked the Prime Minister whether he will now fix a day for the discussion on the Air Service raised on the Address by the hon. Member for Brentford?
I must refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to the Hon. Member for East Herts yesterday.
1ST ROYAL DRAGOONS.
asked whether, owing to the cancelling of the rule which required officers elected as Members of Parliament to be placed on the half-pay list and removed from their regimental list, a Member of this House has remained on the list of the 1st Royal Dragoons for eight years without doing any regimental duty, thus blocking promotion for all the officers of the regiment and lowering their prospects of pension?
I am informed that this is so.
Can no remedy be adopted in such a case?
I only became aware that it was so fifteen minutes ago, therefore I am not able to take the necessary steps. I will see what can be done.
QUEEN MARY'S HOSPITAL, WHALLEY, BLACKBURN.
asked the Under-Secretary for War if he will make an inquiry into the charges against the doctor in charge of Queen Mary's War Hospital, Whalley, near Blackburn, who it is alleged ordered a patient named Private Hayhurst, who was in such a state of health that he was only able to get up for about two hours a day and who had to be wheeled about, to go back to his camp, a distance of 250 miles, that in spite of protests that the man was unable to walk more than a few yards the doctor persisted, and that through the effort of attempting to prepare for the journey Hayhurst was thrown back into bed where he has been ever since, and has now been discharged from the Army as unfit; and, if the allegations are found to be substantially true, will he see that suitable action is taken with regard to this medical officer?
A report on this matter has been called for.
COURTS-MARTIAL (DEATH SENTENCES).
asked the Under-Secretary for War if a number of conscientious objectors who have been under detention at Kingston and Hounslow barracks have now been sent to France; if these men have gone willingly; if not, what is going to be done with them in France; and will he give instructions to the military authorities abroad that the provision of the Military Service Act, 1916, which does not allow the infliction of the death penalty on conscientious objectors for refusal to obey military orders shall be strictly observed?
I think my hon. Friend is mistaken in what he states in the latter part of the question. What the Military Service Act of 1916 provides is, that the death penalty cannot be inflicted in respect of failure to obey an order calling up from the Reserve for permanent service a man deemed to be enlisted under the Act.
That means to say, then, that all the promises made during the passing of the Bill are going to be treated as "scraps of paper" by the War Office?
No, Sir. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that is not so.
asked the Under-Secretary for War if he will give an undertaking that the sentence of death will not be carried out on soldiers under twenty-one for military offences except when such offences would be punishable by death by a Civil Court of ordinary criminal jurisdiction?
I cannot give such an undertaking.
asked the Under-Secretary for War if he will give an undertaking to the House of Commons that no soldier who has been previously wounded in the present War will have the death sentence carried out upon him for a military offence other than an offence for which the capital penalty would be inflicted by a Civil Court of criminal jurisdiction?
I cannot give this undertaking either.
SHIPBUILDING BATTALIONS.
asked the Prime Minister if he has considered the suggestion that, with a view to facilitating the building of merchant ships necessary to make good the losses occasioned by the War, a conference should be arranged with Labour leaders to discuss the formation of shipbuilding battalions on the lines of the Dockers' Battalion; and if the Government propose to take any action in this direction?
The building of merchant ships is being expedited by all practicable means, including the certification of the work in suitable cases as munition work, and the recall of shipbuilding workmen from the Colours. Efforts are also being made to secure the more economical utilisation of labour on shipbuilding, and in my opinion a good deal more could usefully be done in this direction. The particular suggestion made by the hon. Gentleman had not previously come to my notice, but I shall be glad to give it consideration.
WOUNDED AND DISABLED SOLDIERS,
asked the Prime Minister if he is aware that many institutions for the relief of wounded and disabled soldiers and sailors are still dependent upon public charity for their support, and that they are spending money, time, and energy, in competition with each other, in order to obtain funds, and that some most necessary and deserving institutions of this nature are in financial difficulties; and whether he will consider the desirability of the Government assuming entire responsibility for all wounded and disabled soldiers and sailors, particularly those blinded, and deal with them adequately, generously, and permanently, as part payment for their war service?
I do not think it would be possible for the Government either to suppress or to finance all voluntary associations for the relief of disabled and wounded soldiers.
EMPLOYMENT AFTER WAR.
asked the Prime Minister if he will recommend at an early date the appointment of a commission to take into consideration the general position regarding employment that will arise upon the termination of hostilities, particularly for the purpose of making recommendations for dealing in a large and comprehensive manner with the question of ensuring that men returning from the forces to civil life obtain proper employment and that they do not suffer during any interval that may elapse before they are reabsorbed into our economic system?
This matter is engaging the attention of the Government, who are taking the steps necessary to ensure that it shall be fully and carefully considered.
ANTWERP EXPEDITION.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the decision to lay Papers with regard to the Mesopotamia Expedition, he can now see his way to lay Papers with regard to the Antwerp Expedition and the loss of the three "Cressys"?
I doubt if the two cases are analogous, but I will again consult the Departments concerned.
Is it within the recollection of my right hon. Friend that when the publication of these Papers was asked for last November, the First Lord of the Admiralty said that he had no objection to the publication of them himself, but that if Papers with regard to one episode were published Papers with regard to other episodes might be demanded, and seeing that Papers with regard to the Mesopotamia episode have now been published, is there not now a reason for publishing Papers as to other episodes also?
I do not think that the cases are analogous.
Were not Papers laid by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee on the private table of an old Friend, the Attorney-General?
PURCHASE OF LUXURIES.
asked what steps the Government propose to take to curtail or stop the expenditure of money by the public in purchase of articles which are not necessaries, but which are being bought lavishly out of the money put in circulation by the heavy expenditure of the Government?
A campaign is being conducted by the National War Savings Committee, which is promoting the establishment of local central committees throughout the country, with a view to bringing prominently to the attention of all members of the community the urgent need for personal economy of expenditure, so that labour and services of all kinds may be set free for the prosecution of the War and that money may be saved for lending to the Government. In addition, as the hon. Member is aware, steps have been taken, by the imposition of taxation and the prohibition of certain classes of imports, to check wasteful expenditure of the kind referred to. The whole question is receiving constant and careful attention.
Has the Government done nothing further in the circumstances?
The Government is doing everything it can. Any suggestions made by the hon. Member will be most carefully considered.
Is not the Government wasting an enormous amount of paper?
Will the Government not make up its mind as to the possibility of stopping horseracing altogether?
TEMPEST SHIPPING COMPANY.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he has seen the report concerning the Tempest Shipping Company, Limited; if he is aware that the profit for the ten and a half months ending 31st March, 1916, was £153,267; that the profit for the previous twelve months was only £18,755, and £16,290 in the year ending May, 1914; if he is aware that these profits are made in consequence of high freightage charges; and if he intends taking any action in the matter?
I observe with interest and pleasure the large increase in the profits of certain firms and companies, and I look forward to a substantial increase in the revenue from Income Tax, Super-tax, and Excess Profits Duty.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in consequence of these extraordinary profits being made by the shipping companies the consumer is suffering?
I trust that a large proportion of these extraordinary profits will ultimately be paid into the Exchequer.
Who is paying it? The consumer is paying all these profits.
COINAGE (BASE METAL).
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state the proportion of base metal used in minting the coinage of the United Kingdom before the War and now, respectively; and whether the present proportion is the same in coins intended for home use and in those intended for use abroad?
There has been no change in the proportion of alloy used in the coinage of the United Kingdom, and no distinction is made between coins of the United Kingdom issued at home and coins of the United Kingdom sent abroad.
SECURITIES (SALES).
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) whether a joint stock bank, having its head office in the United Kingdom and branches in India or the British Dominions or Crown Colonies, or in Allied or neutral countries, can pass as a good delivery securities which have not been in physical possession in the United Kingdom since the 30th September, 1914, but have since that date been held by such a bank at such branch for safe custody on behalf of a customer, or under lien against advances made in the United Kingdom at the head office or at such branch bank; under what conditions or regulations applicable to these circumstances the sale of such securities is permitted; and (2) in regard to securities which have not been in physical possession in the United Kingdom since the 30th September, 1914, but in that of a branch in India, or a Dominion or Crown Colony, or an Allied or neutral country, of a bank with its head office in the United Kingdom, whether such securities may be forwarded to the United Kingdom for sale; whether, if sold and the purchase money invested in Exchequer Bonds or other Government security, it is competent for the merchant so reinvesting to sell them again when he requires money for business purposes; and whether the bank can retain such bonds or Government securities as cover?
Dealings in securities which have not been in continuous physical possession in the United Kingdom since 30th September, 1914, are not permissible under the Temporary Regulations for the Reopening of the Stock Exchange, and securities held by banks, whose head offices are in the United Kingdom, at branches outside the United Kingdom, have clearly not been in continuous physical possession in the United Kingdom. Such securities are therefore not negotiable in this country unless in circumstances bringing the transaction within the scope of one or other of the special relaxations approved by the Treasury and announced from time to time by the Stock Exchange. One such relaxation permits the sale of securities which do not fulfil the requirements as to physical possession if the proceeds of sale are invested in British Government securities, provided that adequate guarantees are given that the latter securities will not be sold nor used as cover for loans of any kind during the War.
EXCHEQUER BONDS.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that money is being withheld from investment in Exchequer Bonds because of the uncertainty prevailing as to whether the Bonds will be received as cash in subscribing to a future long-date War Loan without any condition as to the subscription of new money for a further amount of the loan; and if he will repeat the assurance which he gave on 24th January, that the holders of old War Loan and new Exchequer Bonds will be able to convert into new War Loan without subscribing for an additional amount of new loan?
Yes, Sir; in accordance with the undertakings given in the prospectuses the 4½ per cent War Loan and the 5 per cent. Exchequer Bonds will be accepted as the equivalent of cash for the purpose of subscribing to a new loan without any condition as to a further subscription in cash.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the desirability of decreasing the amount of the Bonds to £500 instead of £1,000?
I will consider the matter.
Will further details with regard to this be laid before the House?
There are no further details to lay before the House.
FINANCE BILL.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will arrange that the Finance Bill is placed in the hands of Members at least three days before the Second Reading so as to enable Members to master the details of the Bill before they are asked to criticise it; and is he aware that on the last few occasions the Finance Bill has only been placed in the hands of Members on the morning they have been asked to discuss it?
I hope that the Bill will be in the hands of Members tomorrow.
INCOME TAX.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer under what Statute or authority Income Tax at the rate of 5s. in the £ is deducted by banks and financial agents from dividends or interest payable by foreign Governments for a period when the Income Tax was payable at 3s. in the £ or some other rate lower than 5s.?
Income Tax on foreign or Colonial dividends or interest entrusted to an agent in the United Kingdom for payment is chargeable at the rate applicable to the date when such dividends became payable in this country and not at the rate or rates in force during the period of accrual of the dividends. In the case of coupons payable abroad but realised through bankers and others in this country tax is chargeable at the rate applicable to the date of realisation of the coupons. The authority is to be found in a series of enactments commencing with the Income Tax Act, 1842.
Will the right hon. Gentleman refer me to the exact section? I cannot find it anywhere.
I shall be glad to do so, but I am afraid I could not give my hon. Friend the reference now across the floor of the House.
BUDGET PROPOSALS.
MOTOR-CAR DUTIES.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that the increased taxation of motor cars used by doctors presses on the medical profession, and that the public interests suffer; and if he will take into consideration the desirability of making a further concession, with especial consideration to the increased price of petrol and the difficulty of obtaining it?
As I have already stated, I am considering all questions relevant to the proposed increase of Motor-Car Licence Duty; but I must add that it would be difficult to justify any change which would give members of the medical profession—who only pay half duty—a greater proportional preference over other users of motor cars.
ECONOMY DURING WAR.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if any attempt is going to be made by the Government to promote economy during the War; if his attention has been called to the fact that over 2,000 motor cars were present at a recent race meeting; and if, in face of this, public money is to be spent in great posters on the hoardings begging people not to use motor cars for pleasure?
The Government is endeavouring to promote economy by every means—by the prohibition of imports, by taxation, and by the activities of the National War Savings Committee. The fact, if it be a fact, stated in the latter part of the question appears to me to be a reason for extending rather than for ceasing our efforts to create a healthy public sentiment on the subject.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman see, in view of the appeals made by the Government in regard to economy, that these thousand—[An HON. MEMBER: "Two thousand!"]—motor cars run for this purpose is sheer waste?
I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman can vouch for the fact whether 1,000 or 2,000 motor cars were used on any occasion.
May I point out to the right hon. Gentleman that the reason these 2,000 motor cars were used was because the Government had refused to allow the ordinary facilities by railway trains?
May I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Government intend to deal with the question of prohibiting horseracing altogether?
If my hon. Friend will address his question to the appropriate Minister, I am sure he will get an answer.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say who is the appropriate Minister?
I am unable to do so without notice.
I will ask the Prime Minister—the head of the Government.
HAY AND STRAW (COMPULSORY PURCHASES).
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether he is aware that the War Office has been buying hay and straw in Leicestershire by compulsion at £5 per ton for hay and £5 10s. for clover hay, carted free to the railway station, without due notice, although previous to the edict it was worth 50 per cent. more in the open market; whether he is aware that the hay was required by the farmers for feeding their own stocks; and whether he will make arrangements with the War Office that the individual requirements will be taken into account before compulsory purchases are made?
I am informed that the prices which are being paid in Leicestershire by the War Office for hay and clover hay are 7s. 6d. in advance of the prices mentioned by the hon. Member, which are those suggested by the County Committee and approved by the Forage Committee last autumn. A farmer who is dissatisfied with the prices can appeal to the Commission presided over by the hon. and learned Member for Exeter for a revision of them. I understand that in no case is any hay taken without notice or any taken which a farmer requires for feeding his own stock. If the hon. Member knows of any case where this is not so I shall be glad if he will send me particulars so that I can have them immediately investigated.
FOOD SUPPLY (AREAS UNCULTIVATED).
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture how many acres of land in England and Wales are now growing nothing but coarse grass, thorns, and thistles, which, if cultivated, are capable of making a sensible addition to the food supply of the nation?
I regret that it is not possible to say how many acres there are in the country of poor pasture land and under-cultivated land of the kind to which my Noble Friend refers.
Will the hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of obtaining this information at the earliest possible moment, in view of the necessity for the greater production of food in the country?
I am very sorry that the labour supply would really not be sufficient to make any impression in cultivating waste land. The labour applied to agriculture is extraordinarily depleted already.
But this land is not waste land at all.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture how many acres in England and Wales, now occupied by golf clubs, are incapable of improvement from an agricultural point of view; and how many acres are capable of making a substantial addition to the nation's food supply if restored to their fullest agricultural use?
The Board have no specific information as to the quantity or character of land used as golf links, and it would be impossible to obtain the information asked for in the question without a systematic survey.
FAIR-WAGES CLAUSE.
asked the First Commissioner of Works if he is aware that youths waiting on bricklayers, plasterers, and carpenters on the Government works, Abbey Wood, are only being paid at the rate of 5d., 6d., and 7d. per hour, the proper rate being 9¼d.; and if he intends taking any action in the matter?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. If my hon. Friend will send me privately particulars of the works to which he refers, I shall be glad to have inquiry made.
PELHAM COMMITTEE.
asked the President of tht Board of Trade whether he will state how many men have applied to the Pelham Committee to be placed in positions where they can be doing work of national importance; and for how many men have positions been found?
The number of cases referred by the tribunals to the Committee up to and including the 6th May was 265. Definite recommendations have been made by the Committee in seventy-five cases, and in forty-five of these actual employment has been found. The remaining cases are under investigation.
Is it not possible for men to apply direct to this Committee, or must application be made solely through the tribunals?
The applications pass through the tribunals to the Committee.
NATIONAL UNION OF CLERKS.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that on the 5th February last application was made by the National Union of Clerks, on-behalf of clerks employed in the Royal Arsenal, for certain questions to be submitted to arbitration; that up to the present the only information that can be obtained is that the Ministry of Munitions and the War Office are being communicated with on the matter; and whether he will take steps to have the matter expedited?
I can at present only say that the matter is under consideration by the Ministry of Munitions and the War Office, who, I understand, are in communication on the subject.
IMPORTATION OF HOPS (BELGIUM).
asked the President of the Board of Trade who were the consignees of the 320 hundredweights of hops imported into this country during 1915 from the part of Belgium in enemy occupation; and whether proceedings have been taken against them for trading with the enemy?
The consignees of these hops were Messrs. D. H. Gaskian and Company, and they were imported under a licence issued by the Board of Trade; the second part of the question does not, therefore, arise.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman in what circumstances a licence was given for the importation of goods from a part of the country where any benefit arising from the export must have gone to the enemy?
As I understand the case, the import was made from a part of Belgium in the occupation of the enemy, but that the money paid did not reach enemy hands and remained in the United Kingdom.
BLACKBURN CORPORATION (EMPLOYE'S APPEAL).
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the appeal of Mr. William Perkins, aged sixty years, an employé of the Blackburn Corporation gas department, to the Court of Referees (Case No. A830), to have a free certificate, was refused because he declined to accept work as a labourer at Gretna on account of his age; that he was suffering from a bad cough, had never been away from home, and did not feel disposed to leave his wife at home alone; and if he intends taking action?
I assume that my hon. Friend's question relates to a workman, named Walter Perkins, lately employed by the Blackburn Corporation, whose claim for unemployment benefit was disallowed on the ground that he had refused an offer of suitable employment at Gretna. An appeal against the disallowance, made by the National Union of Gasworkers and General Labourers, on the grounds set out in the question, was considered by the Blackburn District Court of Referees on the 26th April, and the Court recommended by a majority that the disallowance should be confirmed. The Board of Trade have no power to reverse the recommendation of the Court of Referees, but the association concerned have a right of appeal to the Umpire. No question of a leaving certificate was raised in this case, as the workman was unemployed.
LANCASHIRE COTTON TRADE.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is satisfied that the prohibition of imports of farina, starch, dextrine, etc., can be effected without seriously crippling the cotton trade of Lancashre?
I have received representations as to the effect which it is anticipated that the prohibition will have on the cotton industry, and am causing further inquiries to be made into the matter.
MERCHANT SHIPPING (TONNAGE).
asked the President of the Board of Trade if the Committee on Shipping and Shipbuilding have made any recommendations respecting measures to increase the amount of merchant tonnage?
I have not received any recommendation from the Committee on this subject. Active steps have already been taken by the Board of Trade without waiting for any recommendations.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if any conclusions have been reached as the result of communications between the Tonnage Committee, the Board of Trade, the War Office, and the Admiralty with reference to the economical use of merchant ships under Government control and the release of vessels which can be spared for mercantile purposes?
Yes, Sir, the question has been closely examined, and action has been taken with a view to release of tonnage where military and naval exigencies will permit of it.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware of the injury which is being inflicted on British merchants in the Far East in consequence of the sudden prohibition by the Board of Trade against the importation of fancy goods which were ordered months ago from Japanese manufacturers for the next season's trade; is he aware that the British Ambassador in Tokio has telegraphed several times on behalf of merchants for a detailed list of goods prohibited, without eliciting any definite information on which shippers can act; is he aware that in many cases British merchants in Japan may be forced to repudiate their contracts owing to the financial difficulties in which they may be placed in consequence of the sudden and unexpected prohibition, will he say whether the Japanese Government has approached the British Government on behalf of Japanese merchants, and will he undertake that no concession will be granted to Japanese merchants that are withheld from British merchants in Japan; and, in order to save many British merchants from ruin, will he authorise the importation of goods contracted for in Japan prior to the 25th March, 1916?
Representations have been received concerning the effect upon trade with Japan of the import prohibitions which it has been necessary to establish with a view to securing addi- tional tonnage for the urgent needs of ourselves and our Allies. I regret, however, that it is not possible, consistently with this object, to exempt goods ordered but not paid for or dispatched before the date on which the prohibitions were announced.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give particulars of the goods which are prohibited? The Commercial Attaché at Tokio cannot give any information. The merchants are continually asking for orders, and the Board of Trade will give no information—
The hon. Member in making a statement.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that permission has been given to a number of Anglo-German firms to import Havana cigars into this country provided they were shipped before the 15th March, whereas the importation of cigars already manufactured and shipped from the Philippine Islands on the 9th March by Spanish firms had been prohibited; and will he arrange that equal facilities shall be given to imports from both these American possessions so that shipments from both before the 15th March shall be allowed entry into this country?
The Committee appointed to deal with the importation of tobacco decided that licences should be granted for the importation of Havana cigars which left Havana on or before the 18th March. This decision was taken in view of the peculiar circumstances of the Havana cigar trade and has no relation to the nationality of the importers or exporters.
Will the same privilege be given to importers of cigars from the Philippine Islands?
I could not say that without notice. I should require to have particulars of the Philippine trade.
The cigars were shipped on 9th March.
asked the President of the Board of Trade what is the period of time within which our imports have been restricted by between 2,000,000 and 3,000,000 tons; and how is this estimate made up as regards the commodities now subject to prohibition restrictions?
The restrictions at present in force are framed with a view to reducing imports to the extent of between 2,000,000 and 3,000,000 tons per annum. The first Proclamation with this object came into effect on 1st March. It is not possible within the limits of a reply to indicate exactly how this estimate was arrived at, but if the hon. Gentleman will call at the Board of Trade the calculations can be shown to him.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say by how much imports have been actually restricted up to date?
I cannot say without notice. The Proclamations came into operation at various dates. They are not likely to have full effect until the goods which were in transit have been disposed of.
May I ask if what the right hon. Gentleman means is that if restrictions are fully operative for twelve months the imports will be restricted by the amount mentioned in my question?
I can scarcely accept the definition of the hon. Gentleman. What I said was that the restrictions as they will be operative are expected in the course of twelve months to produce the reduction mentioned.
It is the same thing.
It is not the same thing. The restrictions have been very large, but licences have in some cases to be issued.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state with regard to what articles subject to prohibition and to what countries of origin licences for importation were granted during April?
Such licences as were granted during the month of April were given mainly with reference to the fact that the goods were en route or had been paid for before the dates on which the prohibitions were announced, or because they were urgently required for military purposes. I fear that it would not be possible to classify the licences according to the countries of origin of the goods without an expenditure of labour disproportionate to the value of the information obtained.
Does the right hon. Gentleman's reply cover all licences or all licences including goods paid for?
No, it does not necessarily follow that goods which are said to be paid for can be granted licences. Obviously some of the cases have to be very closely investigated before licences can be issued. Our object is to give the benefit of the doubt rather in favour of an increase of our tonnage space.
Are licences given for goods not paid for?
Not as a general rule, except, of course, where the goods were actually in transit.
Never?
There are certain special cases, but the general rule is that they are not given for goods unless they are paid for or are in transit.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any distinction is drawn between importation in foreign ships and in British ships?
No distinction is drawn. It does not matter from the point of view of tonnage space whether goods come to this country in neutral vessels or British vessels.
TEXTILE COMMITTEE.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state if the Board of Trade has selected to serve upon the Textile Committee appointed to consider trade after the War two ex-directors of the Manchester Chamber of Commerce whose services, have recently been dispensed with by that chamber in consequence of their not representing that chamber's views?
I am aware that the two gentlemen referred to have ceased to be directors of the Manchester Chamber of Commerce, but I have no reason to suppose that their appointment to the Textile Committee is not generally approved by the cotton trade.
As these directors do not now represent the Chamber of Commerce, will the right hon. Gentleman put on additional members who do represent that body?
No, Sir. The Committee that is set up is not a representative Committee in the ordinary sense of the word. If it were necessary to make it a representative Committee it would be too large and unwieldy, and that is not a practice followed by Government Departments. The two gentlemen were selected as being well informed on two aspects of the cotton trade, and one of them was recommended by the highest authorities in Manchester irrespective of his fiscal views.
REGISTRATION.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the by-elections recently held, and in prospect and the possibility of a near General Election, the Government will introduce a Registration Bill to enable electors serving with the Colours to record their votes without personal attendance at the polls?
asked, in view of the fact that the legal term of the present Parliament will expire within six months, whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce a Registration Bill before Whitsuntide?
I must refer the hon. Baronet to the answer which I gave yesterday to the hon. Member for North Somerset, to which I can add nothing, except to repeat that the matter is engaging the close attention of the Government.
CIVIL SERVANTS (PROPOSED OATH OF ALLEGIANCE).
asked the Prime Minister whether he is prepared to consider the expediency of imposing an oath of allegiance on all members of His Majesty's Civil Service, to diminish the danger of persons receiving payment from the State and at the same time aiding, by writing or by action, treasonable conspiracies?
I will consider the hon. Member's suggestion.
MILITARY SERVICE.
BUDGET PROPOSALS.
DISTURBANCES IN IRELAND.
MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT.
In consequence of the unsatisfactory character of the answer given to my first question, I beg to ask the permission of the House to move the Adjourn- ment of the House in order to draw attention to the continuance of executions in Ireland under the sanction of secret military tribunals, and the apparent want of any proper authority or control over the proceedings of the military in that country.
The hon. Member for East Mayo proposes to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House in order to draw attention to a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the continuance of executions in Ireland under the sanction of secret military tribunals, and the apparent want of any proper authority and control over the military in that country. Has the hon. Member the leave of the House?
The pleasure of the House having been signified, the Motion stood over, under Standing Order No. 10, until a Quarter past Eight o'clock this evening.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS,
That they have agreed to the Amendments made by this House to the Amendment made by the Lords to the Local Government (Emergency Provisions) Bill, without Amendment.
NEW MEMBER SWORN,
John Lalor Fitzpatrick, esquire, for the Queen's County (Ossory Division).
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
I beg to move, "That the proceedings on Government business be not interrupted this night under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), and may be entered upon at any time though opposed."
May I ask the Prime Minister what he intends to do under the circumstances which have just arisen? The Motion for the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule is, as the House will see, in such a form that not only can it be debated, but it will include all Government business. Therefore, if we pass it in this form without an assurance from the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House that he does not intend to take more than the Military Service Bill, we may find ourselves sitting up all night taking all the business on the Paper. I myself have no objection whatever to the Military Service Bill being taken after eleven o'clock provided we do not go on too late; in fact, I should like to see the Military Service Bill disposed of to-night. If the House is willing to assist the Government in disposing of the Military Service Bill we should not thereby, in view of the fact that two hours and three-quarters will probably be taken up with the Motion that has just been moved by the hon. Member below the Gangway, be called upon to take other business. Therefore I would ask the Prime Minister whether he will give us an assurance that, if we pass this Motion suspending the Eleven o'Clock Rule, no other business will be taken beyond the Military Service Bill?
Under the unexpected circumstances of this Debate which have arisen I should like to put it to my right hon. Friend whether he could not see his way to withdraw his Resolution and not press this matter to-night. Nothing was done in this House yesterday to delay the progress of the Military Service Bill. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] No; there was a most reasonable discussion of matters of the greatest importance, and in which interest is taken outside this House. We are not likely to have a satisfactory discussion at midnight. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I know all my hon. Friends do not agree with me, but it is a great mistake. I put it to the Prime Minister whether, on the whole, in the interests of public business and having regard to the importance of the subject, he cannot see his way to withdraw this Resolution, and let us make as good progress as we can with the Bill until a quarter past eight to-night.
May I suggest that whatever else takes place the Summer Time Bill may be taken to-day? A time limit is there automatically to operate. Next Saturday week, I believe, is the date fixed for the operation of the Bill. A long debate has already taken place. Therefore I would express a hope that the Bill might be taken to-day.
We are all very anxious that time should be given for a Debate on the Irish situation.
The House of Lords?
It is we who are concerned with that country. We are here for that purpose. We are here for no object or function except that of standing up for our country. We are anxious that this matter should be debated. The House of Lords has taken the opportunity of having a Debate anterior to ourselves. I do not object to the hon. Member for East Mayo making his Motion with a view to preventing further executions. I must say I understood from the Prime Minister, whose compassionate nature I at any rate realise, to give an answer that no further executions were likely.
Except in respect of some cases already heard.
Very well. I make the suggestion that the Government should give to-morrow for an Irish Debate. I suggest the whole day, because it is most unfair to us to begin a Debate late at night. If it begins at 8.15 it can only last, as I understand the Rules of the House—for I, like the hon. Member, am somewhat rusty on them—for two or three hours. We are entitled, I suggest, to a full day's discussion of this matter, and there is the special point in the promise which the right hon. Gentleman has given that he would name the Commissioners to-day and give other information which we have not had. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman the Member for East Mayo will take the suggestion from me. I suppose he will not. We are, however, entitled to no truncated, but a full day's discussion. My suggestion is that we should have that to-morrow. That will be a much more satisfactory way of dealing with this business than having what I may call a "hole-and-corner" discussion late at night.
The hon. and learned Member for Cork suggests that I would not take any suggestion from him. I will take any suggestion from him that commends itself to my judgment. He clearly stated my object at the beginning of his observations. My object in moving for the Adjournment was by no means to raise the whole of the Irish question. I entirely endorse the claim made by the hon. and learned Member for Cork. Those of us who have been in the middle of it, and realise what it all means and the horrors of it, think we are entitled, at the earliest possible moment, to a discussion of the situation in Ireland. The sole object of my Motion is to stop the executions. I wish I could withdraw the Motion. I cannot! The Prime Minister distinctly guarded himself—as I understood him—by saying that no further executions would take place except in respect of sentences already confirmed.
was understood to assent.
How many are those? We are in the dark, and I must say that the distinct feeling in Dublin when I left, and in Ireland, was such that I regard, and must regard, as a matter of overwhelming importance—the putting a stop immediately to these executions. Therefore, my Motion is narrowly confined to that, and I have no notion of attempting to raise the general question of Ireland. It would be an outrage to do so on a Motion for the Adjournment which could only last two and a half hours. I have no such notion, but I hope when the proper time comes, at a quarter past eight, fully to justify my action, or at least make an effort to justify it, in asking at the earliest possible moment the attention of the House to stop the executions absolutely. If the Prime Minister could have seen his way to give that pledge, I certainly would not have moved.
I certainly appreciate my hon. Friend's position. At the same time, I think there is great force in the appeal made by the hon. Member for North-East Cork (Mr. T. M. Healy). It is extremely desirable, if we can, without prejudice to the question raised by the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon), that we should proceed continuously with this Bill and get through as much as we can to-night. I think on the whole—I am in the hands of the House; it does not matter to me one way or another—the general convenience, including the purpose of the hon. Member for East Mayo, would be equally well served if we took his Motion—I will give him every facility for it—the first thing to-morrow. I can assure him in the meantime that no executions will take place. There will be no prejudice in any way to those he represents I can assure the House I feel as strongly as my hon. Friend does. We want as soon as we can, and as completely as we can, to put a stop even to this necessary vindication of the law. I am sorry that anyone should think that my hon. Friend, in the appeal he made, is speaking for anything but the general sentiment of the House—I am quite sure in every quarter of the House—just as much as here. I think my hon. Friend may rest satisfied with my assurance, and allow us to proceed with the ordinary course of the Bill to-night, on the understanding that he will have first place to-morrow, and that nothing will be done in the meantime to prejudice the position.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman, in the event of to-morrow being allocated to a discussion on Ireland, whether it will be limited in any way or be restricted to what the hon. Member for Mayo wishes to raise? I hope the House will believe me, with the utmost sincerity, when I say that I should be sorry at the present moment that such a discussion should arise as would drive us back into the old considerations as regards the Irish question generally. That may have to be done one day, but I hope, at all events, at the present moment of excitement that may not take place, and that the Motion may be limited to what the hon. Member for Mayo has asked. I would also ask the right hon. Gentleman, in the event of to-morrow being occupied with the Irish Debate, and our not having finished with the compulsory Bill to-night, which I hope we will, will we take it up on Friday so as to get rid of it this week?
May I be allowed to say a word before the Prime Minister rises again? As far as I can see, it would be an undesirable thing to-morrow to raise a wide discussion on the whole Irish situation which might land us in the kind of controversy which would be unsuitable at this moment, though the time will come when it will have to be gone into, and, as far as my judgment goes or my advice has any weight, I would say the discussion to-morrow ought to be limited in its scope, and ought not to be of such a character as to raise those other questions which, when we come to consider this matter broadly, as we shall have to before long, must be gone into.
I entirely agree with what has been said by the right hon. and learned Gentleman and the hon. and learned Gentleman, and I think, if we take this to-morrow the first thing, it is on the understanding that it is confined to—
Only that one Bill?
I will try to arrange a way. No matter, we shall have the general sense of the House in any procedure that may be adopted to-morrow. The hon. Member for Mayo will raise the question he was going to raise to-night, and the discussion will be limited to that topic, and not range over a wide area.
Of course, I recognise the very great value of the assurance that has been given to me by the Prime Minister, that if I consent to abandon my right to move the Adjournment to-night, no executions will take place between now and to-morrow. I sympathise very deeply with the view expressed by the hon. and learned Member for Cork, who would like at the earliest possible moment—I am not in the least afraid of it—that the whole of the Irish situation should be fully discussed. But I think, if the hon. Member for Cork for the moment will take anything I say on its merits, that to mix up this narrow question of whether it is good policy—and I will be able to put it to you on those grounds with great force to-morrow—to continue these executions, with a discussion raising up old bitterness—I hope not—but, at all events, introducing all kinds of past controversies, would be a mistake, and I think it would place me at a disadvantage, and, much as I desire to meet the Prime Minister, and am prepared to meet him and thank him for the very courteous and generous way in which he has met me, I would not like to give up my right unless I have the assurance he has now given me, that it will be possible to-morrow to confine the Debate to the one issue, which is for the moment the lives of these individuals involved, which I very much desire to keep separate from, those general questions. What I suggest, if it be possible, is that I should put a Motion on the Paper raising the point I desire to raise. [HON. MEMBERS: "Take it to-night."]
I think we can now come to an agreement. I will do my best to carry out what I am sure is the general sense of the House. With regard to the question put by the right hon. Baronet for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), I presume it does not require very much ingenuity and conjecture. I assume that he had in view the second Order on the Paper, the Summer Time Bill. The hon. Member is, I think, in a confessed minority in the House on that, and I believe the general opinion of the House is in favour of the Bill. I say nothing about my own opinion.
Only that one Bill.
Only that one Bill.
I am always anxious to oblige my right hon. Friend.
The Prime Minister has not said whether he will take Friday to finish the Compulsion Bill if necessary.
As at present advised, I think we ought. I hope the Irish Debate will not take the whole of to-morrow. I hope we may make substantial progress with the Military Service Bill to-morrow.
Will there be any unnecessary shortening of the Debate to-night?
Will the Third Reading of the Military Service Bill be taken on Friday or only the Committee and Report stages this week?
That depends on the progress we make.
You do not propose to go further than the Committee stage?
If we get the Committee stage to-morrow I think perhaps we may be content.
Will the right hon. Gentleman now make the announcement he promised to make as to the names of the Commission of Inquiry into the causes of the outbreak in Ireland?
The Government propose to set up a Commission of Inquiry, in strict pursuance of the promise I gave, and not to go beyond it, namely, to inquire into the causes of the recent outbreak of rebellion in Ireland and the conduct and degree of responsibility of the military and civil executive in Ireland in connection therewith, and for that purpose we propose that a small Commission shall be set up, of which the chairman will be Lord Hardinge of Penshurst, late Viceroy of India, Mr. Justice Shearman, and Sir Mackenzie Chalmers, late Under-Secretary to the Home Office here.
Might I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman has received a copy of a resolution passed by the Irish party on this matter, in which it was pointed out that, in their opinion, no investigation would be satisfactory either in Ireland or in Great Britain into this matter which was not a full investigation of all the circumstances which led up to this deplorable incident, and also into the fitness of the present form of Executive Government in Ireland; whether, in view of that expression of opinion from the majority of the Irish representatives, he will so alter and enlarge the terms of reference as to meet that view; and, also, whether he will be open to receive an expression of opinion with reference to the constitution of this tribunal?
Might I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will reconsider the propriety of sending an English judge from his work here to investigate a matter of this kind? I have hardly ever known such a thing happen without very strong objection, and it is not at all well that an administrator of justice should be brought from his proper sphere into executive matters.
Our object was to provide a tribunal which was absolutely free from any suspicion of party complexion or colour. Such a tribunal is very difficult to constitute in this country, and it is almost impossible to constitute it unless you have at least one of its members a person of judicial experience. The other two members of the tribunal are distinguished public servants who have spent their whole lives in administrative work, but we did feel it desirable to fortify the tribunal with somebody of judicial experience, and it was not until we were assured that this distinguished judge could be spared from his own work that we ventured to ask him to undertake these duties. I will bear in mind what my hon. Friend has said.
The Prime Minister does not imagine I am making any imputation on the judge?
Not at all.
It is the principle of taking away a judge from the Courts.
I share that feeling to the full, and it is only because this inquiry is of such a peculiar kind that it is absolutely necessary that it should be conducted by persons who have no kind of political antecedents or suspicion of any form of partiality. It seemed to us this was a case where an exception ought to be made to the general rule. With regard to what the hon. Member for Waterford said, the Government, in appointing this Committee of Inquiry, are simply carrying out the pledge I gave on the first occasion when this unhappy incident was discussed. I always should with very great respect consider the opinion of a large section of representatives of Ireland, but I think a Commission of Inquiry to investigate the whole causes of Irish discontent and the condition of Irish administration is one which certainly the Government would never pledge themselves to propose—it would open the floodgates of controversy in every possible way—and which, so far as I know, no conceivable tribunal in this country is capable of adequately investigating. Therefore it is a question of a limited inquiry, or no inquiry at all, and it is to carry out my promise that there should be an inquiry that I make this proposal.
I wish to ask whether the pledge which the Prime Minister gave was not that a certain inquiry would be made into the origin of the whole of these transactions, and I would like to know whether that is possible, if the reference is limited in the way he says; and whether he does not think it will be a very great misfortune if any inqury is held which does not command the confidence of the people of Ireland and Great Britain?
My words were carefully chosen. My promise to the House was to have an inquiry into the causes of and the responsibility for this particular outbreak, and that is what public opinion and the House want. I am strictly fulfilling that undertaking and not going beyond it in the proposal which I now make.
Are we to under stand—
I must remind the House that we are now discussing the suspension of the Eleven o'clock Rule, and that is a slender peg on which to hang a discussion.
I wish to ask the Prime Minister a very small question. Will there be no Irishman on this tribunal?
Mr. SPEAKER roses—
I desire to ask—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"] On a point of Order. I desire to ask on what principle or rule I am prevented from asking a question on precisely the same subject on which you have allowed other hon. Members to ask questions? What I propose to ask will be perfectly in order.
The hon. Member will have noticed that I had already risen before he rose to stop the discussion because it was irregular.
Question put, and agreed to.
Ordered, That the Proceedings on Government Business be not interrupted this night under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), and may be entered upon at any time though opposed.—[ The Prime Minister. ]
MILITARY SERVICE BILL
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 2.—(Prolongation of Expiring Terms of Service.)
During the continuance of the present War, Sub-section (1) of Section 87 of the Army Act, and Sub-section (5) of Section 9 of the Territorial and Reserve Forces Act, 1907 (which relate to prolongation of service in certain cases), shall have effect as if after the words "not exceeding twelve months" where they occur in those Sub-sections respectively there were inserted the words "or in the case of the present War not exceeding the duration of the War."
I beg to move to leave out the words "Sub-section (1) of Section 87 of the Army Act and".
The title in the margin is "Prolongation of expiring terms of service." This raises part of the large question about which there is a very great deal of feeling and, in some quarters, at any rate, a very intense feeling. This question arises really under this Bill in four forms: (1) The prolongation of the service of the men of the Regular Army who are now at the front; (2) the prolongation of the service of the men in the Territorial Force who are now at the front; (3) the calling back to continue their service of the men of the Regular Army, who have under this Bill rejoined the Army; and (4) the recalling to the Army of the men of the Territorial Force who have already during the course of this War been liberated from service, and who are now to be called back. This is a very large and a very important question. My Amendment invites the Committee to consider only the first of those questions, although they all obviously hang together, and you cannot dissociate one without raising the whole question.
The hon. Member began his remarks with a preamble which seems to foreshadow a Debate on the Clause. He has already informed the Committee that it is impossible to differentiate and deal with one part without raising the whole question. Under those circumstances, will it not be for the general convenience if, instead of moving this Amendment, the hon. Member deals with those points on the Clause?
No, Sir.
Then the hon. Member must strictly confine himself to the Amendment which he proposes to move.
I entirely agree with your remarks, Mr. Chairman, and the preamble which I was putting forward was simply in order that after the strain of the last half-hour we might quietly come down to a careful consideration of this point. Under the terms of service upon which men joined the Army before the War they have to serve a certain number of years, and it is laid down by Section 87 of the Army Act that if their term of years expires while the country is at war that term may be extended another year, but the 87th Section in the Army Act, which is well known, contains in the most explicit and decisive language this promise, that even if the man's service is continued for a whole year after his term of service and the country is then at war, even in that case he has to be set free. The first part of the Clause which I am proposing to omit says, in fact, that this definite and solemn offer that was made to the man to go year after year with extra service, even in time of war, is to be treated as a scrap of paper and torn up. Practically from the very moment that this idea was put forward there has been a strong feeling of resentment and protest against it, and it found notable expression in this House on the 20th January, when the right hon. Gentleman now sitting upon the Front Treasury Bench (Mr. Long), in reply to a suggestion that these men ought to be brought under the purview of the first Military Service Bill, used these words: As the Bill stood it would include men who had completed their service and received their discharge and had now become civilians. It would be a gross injustice to impose compulsory service upon men who had voluntarily undertaken and performed most loyal and in many cases heroic service for their country. What was gross injustice in January has become the Government policy in May. For my part I see neither military nor political reason why what was gross injustice four months ago should now become the policy of this Parliament. I have made inquiries, and I find that men are leaving the Army at the present time, and many of them are doing so without being pressed or invited by their officers to stay on May I take this opportunity, Mr. Whitley, to protest against all Ministers being absent from the Treasury Bench, and against the way the Government are treating this House. This Bill is ordered to be brought in by "the Prime Minister, Mr. Secretary Bonar Law, Mr. Secretary Samuel, Mr. Long, Mr. Attorney-General, Mr. Tennant, and Mr. Forster," and not one of them is now sitting on the Treasury Bench, which is empty. Under these circumstances I beg to move that you, Mr. Chairman, do now report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
I cannot accept that Motion, because the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Long) has informed me that it is a mere momentary absence. Of course, if it were not so, I should accept this Motion.
On a point of Order. It is perfectly absurd to say that it is a momentary absence, because the right hon. Gentleman has not yet come back.
If the hon. Gentleman does not trust me, he must take other means, and what he has said is disrespectful to the Chair. I can see that this Debate is going to be one that cannot lead to the real point which the Committee desires to deal with, because it must be kept in the form of differentiating between the Regular Army and the Territorials, urging that one shall be exempted and not the other. I suggest again that I think it would be best either not to proceed with this point now or speedily dispose of it, in order that we may arrive at the point which the Committee really desires to discuss.
I beg most respectfully to apologise to you, Mr. Whitley, for the words I uttered just now, which might seem disrespectful. I have no doubt they were, and I will only answer by saying that I meant no disrespect, and I sincerely regret the remarks I made. I wish, however, to repeat my protest, and in view of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman has so many colleagues I think it is regrettable that he could not find one to take his place during his absence. [ The right hon. Gentleman here returned to the Treasury Bench. ]
Absent, for one minute.
There are plenty of other Ministers who might have been here. I see the point of your suggestion, Mr. Whitley, that my Amendment does differentiate between two classes of men, and it is intended to do so. From my point of view, the class of man which my Amendment would exempt from further service has a much greater claim to this sort of exemption than the man in the Territorials. As a rule, the man in the Territorials has served two or three years. Many of them had only served a few months before the War began. The case of the man in the Regular Army is very different. In almost all cases the man will have served seven or eight years, in many cases he will have served fourteen years, and in quite an appreciable number of cases he will have served twenty-one years. I have had sent to me to-day a letter from a man, and this is his record: He is a private, and he came out of the Army only the other day. His service pay for good conduct was 7d. per day, and his total pay was therefore 1s. 7d. per day. His exact age is forty years and six months, and he has served in the Army twenty-two years and twenty-one days. On the completion of his period of re-engagement he had his conduct marked as "exemplary." Yet when that man left, on 26th January this year, it was never suggested to him by his commanding officer that he should remain in the service. He has come back; he has made engagements and has taken up a business which he cannot possibly get anyone else to take, and that man of exemplary character and good conduct for twenty-two years is to be brought back into the Army.
On a point of Order. Is not the hon. Member dealing with Clause 3 rather than with Clause 2? The soldier whose case he is quoting is not now in the Army.
I called the attention of the Committee to the fact that he was not in the Army now, but, of course, his case is typical of a great number of men who are leaving the Army every day. This Bill is going to treat them all in the same way, and I take one instance which is typical of the two classes. This man of exemplary character is not asked by his commanding officer and is not invited to stay. I take it, therefore, that it is well known that his feelings are against staying. Yet he is going to be compelled to stay. I say that man is not going to be an effective or efficient soldier. If anything, he is going to be a cause of discontent and possibly lack of discipline in the ranks. This view was put before me by an officer who is a very intimate friend of mine, and who, speaking probably from the military point of view, urged that the retention of very old soldiers who have done ten, twelve, fifteen, and up to twenty years' service, among men of a different character, of a different age, and of different experiences, is not good for the discipline or the conduct of the Army. I am now going to give another case. A constituent of mine two days ago wrote to me a letter which is a human document that has touched me very much indeed. It is a very serious point which he puts. This man comes of a regular military family. Previously he was in the Army, and afterwards he went into the Territorials. He has been through the whole of this War, and now, his time being expired, he has come home. This is how he writes—
This does not come under the hon. Member's Amendment. It is just what I anticipated. The hon. Member has an ingenious Amendment in advance of other hon. Members, but if he really wants to take the decision of the Committee upon it I hope he will do it briefly, so that we may get to the point we really want to discuss.
I am very much obliged to you for your information, and I should like to accept your suggestion. If I may read this letter later I will not prolong the discussion now.
I will see when we come to it whether it is in order.
I am sure it is in order. I do not intend to prolong this discussion in a way that it not agreeable to others as well as to myself, but the case of the time-expired men who have been many years in the Army is a very serious one. If there is one case more than any other which justifies separate treatment it is this. I really cannot agree to the suggestion that I should withdraw the Amendment.
I find the utmost difficulty in following the speech of the hon. Gentleman or in ascertaining what is the object which he desires to attain. Apparently, his desire is to leave out the Clause, because some of his remarks were directed to the undoubted hardship which is inflicted by calling upon time-expired men to renew their service. Nobody has ever doubted that hardship. I have expressed my views about it frequently, and nothing but the sternest necessity would have induced the Government to do it. As far as this Amendment goes, it can be disposed of in a moment. I accept most gratefully the suggestion from you that we should pass from wholly irrelevant matters, such as the one under discussion, to really serious matters which are raised by Amendments which follow immediately, and with reference to which I shall be prepared to state what is the view of the Government. This Amendment would only make the case worse and the hardship greater. The hon. Gentleman, while objecting to compelling time-expired men to continue their service, proposes to prolong the service of Territorials. He bases his suggestion on the fact that the Regular soldier may probably have given much more time to the Service than the man in the Territorials. I confess I wish he had looked a little more into the matter before he put down his Amendment, because he ignores the fact that the great bulk of the Army now serving abroad has been raised for the same period of service as those in the Territorials. There are very few of the old Army left. The old Army was a very small one. A great many of them have already passed out, and the Territorials and the New Army as regards terms of service are on very much the same footing. There is no ground from a military point of view for the difference which the hon. Gentleman seeks to draw. He would not in any way lessen the hardship inflicted by the Clause, whilst he would increase the sense of injustice by applying the Clause to some and leaving others out. I hope that the Amendment may now be dismissed and that we may proceed to discuss matters of real importance.
Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and agreed to.
I beg to move, after the word "of" ["or in the case of the present War"], to insert the words "men whose time for discharge occurs before the end of." This Amendment is moved in order to make it perfectly clear that the Clause applies to time-expired men.
Question, "That the words proposed be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
I beg to move, at the end of the Clause to add the words "provided the man referred to in such Sections is under the age of forty-one."
On a point of Order. Referring to the observations you made when the Amendment of the hon. Member for Somerset (Mr. King) was being discussed, I understood it was your desire that there should be, as soon as possible, some Amendment before the Committee that would give an opportunity of discussing the whole question of time-expired men. It is too late when the Amendments have been discussed.
The hon. Member misunderstood me. When we come to the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," then will be the opportunity to discuss the whole Clause.
That will be too late.
No, there are certain Amendments, such as the one now called upon, which must be disposed of before we know what we are considering and which may modify the view of the Committee when we come to look at the Clause as a whole.
The case of the time-expired men is mixed up in the Clause with that of the Territorials; that is the difficulty. You cannot deal with the time-expired men on the Clause.
Might I suggest, for the convenience of the Committee, that we might at the earliest moment have my right hon. Friend's statement, which we were promised, as regards the time-expired men? If we knew what was the programme of the Government in relation to the time-expired men, in which subject many of us take a deep interest, it might really prevent a great deal of discussion and a good many Amendments one way or the other. I would suggest that very often, with the general consent of the House, we have such a general statement, and it would relieve many of us from the necessity of having to put forward arguments for discussion.
It might be convenient on this Amendment of mine, though certainly limited to a small section of men, to take the general discussion.
Does not this Amendment, as a matter of fact, raise the whole question? I think it would be very advisable that the right hon. Gentleman should make his general statement right away, and that we should not keep on with these pettifogging little Amendments.
I am always anxious to met the views of the Committee, providing it assists the progress of business, which is not always the case; but if that is done it must be in substitution for the general discussion on the Question "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
We cannot have it twice over.
We cannot have two general Debates, and if I give way it must be on that understanding.
It should be understood, that we have only one Debate with regard to the time-expired men, and then, if there is anything to be said about the Territorials it can be said on the Clause.
That is the same thing.
5.0 P.M.
I do not quite understand where we are being left by all these suggestions. It would be quite competent for me, without in any way infringing the Rules of Order, to make a statement on the Amendment of my hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Ashley). He proposes a limitation upon the number of time-expired men to be taken. It would be quite in order in dealing with that matter, so far as I understand the rulings of this House, if I stated what are the views of the Government in regard to that and one or two other Amendments on the Paper which follow, and also what the Government propose to do in respect of the men who are brought in under this Clause. I conceive that I could do that when I follow my hon. Friend, and I submit that would be far the most convenient course. If we are, first of all, to have a general discussion of that kind and then, as last night, to renew the discussion upon subsequent Amendments dealing with the Territorials as apart from Regulars, it seems to me we shall be wasting time.
May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman's statement will cover not only the Amendment as to the limit of age, but also my Amendment which provides for Home defence only?
Certainly, the whole thing.
If we take the discussion on the Amendment of the hon. Member for Blackpool (Mr. Ashley), and we have a general statement by the right hon. Gentleman upon it, will that preclude the moving of the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Deptford (Mr. Bowerman) and the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Wardle), which is somewhat similar in intention?
If the general discussion takes place now, as suggested, and you deprecate a repetition of the discussion on the question that the Clause stand part, will it not be possible if a general discussion now takes place, to provide that the discussion which takes place on the Question that the Clause stand part should deal with any subject which has not been touched upon in the general discussion. The right hon. Gentleman is hardly correct in his reference to the discussion of yesterday. They were entirely different points.
No.
Do not go back to that. I think I have the mind of the Committee now. It is suggested that the hon. Member for Blackpool should move his Amendment and the Minister, in reply, should make a rather broader statement, dealing with certain other Amendments. Then I think it would be the best to pass on and deal with the specific Amendments and leave an opportunity for discussion on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
Will the right hon. Gentleman's present proposal include a statement upon another point in regard to which he promised a statement at Question Time, namely, the order in which the unattested married men are being called up as compared with the attested married men?
That does not arise on this Clause at all.
My object was to ask where it will come, as you were discussing; where the statements are to be made.
We are dealing with this Clause only.
In view of your ruling, Mr. Whitley, that we may enlarge our discussion, I would like to say before I deal specifically with this age limit of forty-one that I am sure the Government fully sympathise with the hardship of these time-expired men being kept in the Army. No one in this House wants to keep them there if it can possibly be avoided, and it is only because the necessity of the military situation brings us to this point that we have got to keep them there. Before I leave the general point may I urge this upon the Government, that if they are going to keep these men they ought to give them a few weeks' furlough, so that they can go home and see their families before they undertake these new obligations? To my own personal knowledge this would remove great discontent and make the situation much more easy.
In reference to this specific Amendment, I want equality of treatment as far as possible all round. The Clause without my Amendment does not give equality of treatment. If the Committee will carry its mind back to the abortive Bill which was introduced by the Government, they will remember that that Bill was still-born in spite of the eloquence of the President of the Local Government Board, because all Members of the House denounced it as unequal in its incidence and harsh to certain men who were called up. My right hon. Friend the Member for the University of Dublin (Sir E. Carson) denounced it because it was unfair to certain people, and did not give them equal treatment. The hon. Member for Ince, from the Labour Benches, denounced it in scathing terms, in one of the most powerful speeches I have listened to in this House, because it was unfair to some men, taking some and leaving others. The hon. Member for the Rushcliffe Division (Mr. Leif Jones), from the anti-compulsionist point of view, also denounced it. All parts of the House denounced it and the Bill had to be withdrawn. I did hope that in this Bill—the main features of which I strongly support, and which hon. Members on these benches urged upon the Government for months past should be brought in—absolute equality of treatment would be given to every man who is going to be called up. We see in Clause 1 that everyone between the ages of eighteen and forty-one is, as far as humanly possible, given equality of treatment, and everybody between those ages have got to serve, whether they are married or single. In Clause 2 there is, I think, a grave injustice to certain men. These men may not be very numerous. Of course, I have no means of laying figures before the Committee, because I have not access to War Office records, but undoubtedly there are a substantial number of men who will be treated worse than other men who are in exactly the same position as they are, and exactly the same age. Every man who is between the ages of eighteen and forty-one is to be called up to the Colours, and every man between eighteen and forty-one is to be obliged to continue his service until the end of the War.
Take the man of forty-two, whose period of service comes to an end this week. He is absolutely exempt from military service under this Bill. This Bill leaves him outside its four comers, and he can go back to civilian life, but a man of exactly the same age, possibly in the same regiment and in the same company, whose period of service expires the day after the passing of the Bill, may be kept on as a soldier until the end of the War, possibly for two and possibly for three years. Men of forty-five and men of fifty whose periods of service expire after the passing of this Bill are to be kept on until the end of the War. I do appeal to the Committee and to the Government to consider this matter seriously. I feel very strongly on this point, and I ask that these men should not be kept on. Their numbers cannot be very considerable, and if we in this House a fortnight ago threw out a Bill, brought in by all the strength of the Coalition Government, because it gave inequality of treatment, shall we to-day deliberately insert in this Bill a case which is just as hard and just as wrong and just as unequal as any of those that came up two weeks ago? A man of forty-two or forty-three is getting on in years. His military value, except as an instructor at home, is not very great, and I do not think that a man who has, to use a common expression, "done his bit," should be compelled to continue his service at these ages, if at all possible. Certainly there should not be some men of forty-two brought in while some men of forty-two are left out. I think the point is perfectly clear. This Bill was introduced in order to bring into the military net men from eighteen to forty-one and not men outside those ages. This Bill does bring within its scope men of forty-two or even up to fifty, and therefore, in order to remove this injustice, I move my Amendment.
The speech my hon. Friend has made is really directed solely to the question of age. That is all that his Amendment deals with. As an old soldier himself, he has put with great force the case of men now serving upon whom we are laying this very heavy burden of compulsory re-engagement. He has made a strong appeal to us to impose some limit of age upon the time-expired men similar to that which is proposed under the Act upon the men already time-expired. There is another Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Wardle) dealing with the same subject, which seems to us to be rather better than this one, because that provides that the Section shall not apply to the case of men who have served a period of twelve years or more and who are over forty-one years of age. That would exempt men not only of forty-one who have had twelve years' service, but it would cover all the cases that my hon. Friend has in mind. At the same time the inclusion of the provision as to twelve years' service is a valuable addition to the definition of those who are to be excepted. I need hardly say, I have said it before on previous stages, that, whether I speak for myself or whether I speak for the Government, we profoundly regret the necessity to call upon these men to serve again. They have given magnificent proofs of their loyalty and devotion, and they are entitled, if any men in the world are ever entitled to anything, to rest and release from the arduous character of the service which they have rendered to the State. But as I have said before they are, many of them, the very best men that the Crown has got. They are men whose services are of great value. They are, many of them, men who have risen in the ranks, and they have training, experience, knowledge, and everything that goes to make a really invaluable soldier. Therefore, the Army Council feels that at this stage of the War it is impossible for the Army to relinquish control over these men, and they must call upon them to serve again. That being so, it is only just to remember when my hon. Friend suggests that we are tearing up scraps of paper—
I never said that.
I beg the hon. Member's pardon, I thought he did. I do not complain of it, because, after all, it is quite true that these men have an expectation, and you are breaking that. It is no use attempting to conceal the fact. That is a plain statement of the case, and it is only justified by the fact that the country requires the services of these men at a moment of great difficulty, and feels bound to ask them to accept this additional burden. The men who will be covered by this are not inconsiderable in numbers. I am advised that there are something like five thousand men who become time-expired in the course of every month. Therefore, from the point of view of numbers, their retention is of sufficient importance, apart altogether from their qualities as fighting men. The Government think that, on the whole, the suggestion that has been made in one or two quarters that there should be a limit of age with regard to the men now serving is one for which there is a great deal to be said, and I am prepared oh behalf of the Government to agree that the limitation shall be forty-one upon the men who are now serving and who come under the operation of this Clause. As to the words, my hon. Friend will, I know, allow me to have the words reconsidered, and I rather gathered from his gesture just now that he would accept the other suggestion that we should incorporate not only the limit of age but also the limit of the twelve years' service.
Do I understand that a man over forty-one will be held to continue his service if he has not done twelve years' service?
Yes.
Only until he has done twelve years' service?
Yes, of course. If he has done twelve years' service and is over forty-one then he is exempt. I do not think there is any practical difference between us, because the others must be infinitesimal in number. If the hon. Member compares the average soldiers' ages and the average years' service, he will see that in all probability one Amendment covers the one as well as the other, but I think the principle is a better one and one we would rather accept, that is why we include the twelve years' service.
What is going to happen with regard to a man who might wish to remain on, but who, in present circumstances, would have a right to retire? When the right hon. Gentleman says there is going to be a limit fixed at forty-one years, I suppose it would not preclude a man staying on voluntarily if he wished to do so?
Oh, no, certainly not. I would point out that it must not be held that the War Office by making this concession are thereby laying down that forty-one is the limit of age at which men should be called upon to serve, or that they are conceding anything except as to the men who are already time-expired. You could not have a better illustration than the case my hon. Friend gave—the case of a man whose time had expired before this Bill passes, who becomes forty-one and is not liable to re-engagement, while, on the other hand, a man whose time expires after the passing of this Bill when it becomes an Act, comes under the operation of the Bill and has to remain. If the Amendment of my hon. Friend, in a slighly altered form, be adopted that injustice would be removed, and we shall get all the men now serving up to the age of forty-one. Of course, any who wish to re-engage will be able to do so. This change will have no effect upon the general policy of the War Office in regard to the men they have serving or any other of the responsibilities they have to bear in connection with the War. With regard to the provision we are able to make for these men, unquestionably they are entitled to the most generous treatment in regard to bounties. The exact form the bounty is to take and the exact amount has not yet been decided as between the Treasury and the War Office, but I have discussed this Vote with the Secretary of State and the Adjutant-General, and I am authorised by them to say that everything will be done that can be done to secure fair treatment for these men. They will be considered, where possible and practicable, for promotion. As to the bounty, the Secretary to the Admiralty, the Secretary of State, the Adjutant-General, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer have, in discussion with me, stated that it shall be on the most generous terms.
I have said what will be done in regard to promotion. There only remains one other question, that is the question of furlough. I agree with my hon. Friend that is a most valuable concession, and one to which these men are well entitled. The suggestion has already been adopted in regard to men who have voluntarily reengaged, for instance, a great many of the men serving in Egypt have re-engaged on these terms, and they have been given a month's furlough, and, in addition, the time that is occupied on the voyage out and back, otherwise the time would be negligible. There have been some difficulties in carrying this out owing to transports not always being available to bring the men home or take them back, therefore men have been detained here over and above their ordinary time. That is no hardship to them, because I do not suppose they object to the extra furlough, but it is a complicated matter for commanding officers in particlar theatres of war. Notwithstanding that fact, wherever it is possible, the Army Council are prepared to arrange it. I am quite sure the Committee will under- stand that if I say this on behalf of the Army Council, I am not thereby exposing them to be attacked because hereafter, in some particular cases, it may be found impossible to arrange for furlough at the time. It will be quite obvious to the Committee that in the case of some of these men their time may expire at a moment when it is quite impossible to grant any furlough at all. The men may be required for actual fighting purposes at the time, or it may be a time when the Commander-in-Chief thinks they may be required. Therefore, it might be impossible at the time to make this concession. I have to enter that caveat, because I know that when once a promise of this kind is made, if any exceptions to it occur, those exceptions are at once made the occasion for attacking the Army Council. I really cannot expose them to any more attacks by any statements I make here. Therefore it must be clearly understood that this system of furlough is to be arranged wherever it is possible and practicable, and that everything will be done, where the Army Council can do it, to prove to these time-expired men that they recognise the services they have given and realise fully the immensity of the sacrifices they are making. I hope this will somewhat lessen the natural hostility in certain quarters of the Committee to this proposal, and I can say generally that nothing would have induced the Army Council or the Government to put forward this suggestion but a real conviction that it is necessary in the interests of the country, if we are to pursue this War successfully to its conclusion, to keep these men being, as they are, among the best of the soldiers of the King.
I am bound to say I feel more sympathy for these men than I do for any other men who are brought within the purview of this Bill, and also equal sympathy for the men who have already been discharged and who have settled down but are now once more going to be called upon to serve. If it were not for the public exigencies, as they have been stated by my right hon. Friend, I should certainly myself have moved the omission of this Clause altogether. The right hon. Gentleman will have done a great deal to satisfy the natural disappointment of men who are on the eve of getting their discharge by the sympathetic way in which he has met their claims here this afternoon. I should like to put one or two more points to him. I am glad he says that they are to get furlough. I hope that they may have as long a furlough as possible with their wives and families and children. I wish that before the Bill left this House that we could have before us the scheme, what has been called the generous scheme of bounties, and all the other treatment these men are to get. I tell my right hon. Friend, openly and squarely, that I do not like these things being left over. That always creates great disappointment. Probably the men form much higher estimates of what they are going to get. If they are going to receive really decent benefits, let them know now in order to encourage them in the very hard work through which they have to go. Exactly what a bounty means I do not know. I should have thought it would have been a great encouragement to these men if they received an increase of pay. Another way of doing it would have been to count these extra years of service in some way or other—I should not have thought it a very difficult thing—in fixing their pensions.
nodded assent.
If that is to be done it ought to be made perfectly clear. There is another thing which I should like to have, if feasible. It may not be possible, because I know that in Army matters there are many points to be considered. I should like, if it were feasible in some way or other, something corresponding to the right which the men who have already got their discharge have, namely, that right of going before tribunals in particular cases should be afforded to these men. I do not say that you ought to set up a tribunal for them, but there must be many special cases of special hardship where it is essential to some of these men who have to stay on with the Colours when they have made arrangements to come home. The men who are already discharged are in the position of having got whatever you do get on leaving the Army, of which I have not the slightest idea; I am sure it is not very much. They have also got the right, before they come back to serve, to go before a tribunal just like any other man. It would cause satisfaction to many of these men, if their commanding officer or whoever it may be felt they had a special case, if that case could be sent in to be put before the Army Council, or whoever it is that adjudicates upon these matters. It may be that that is a suggestion which is not feasible, but I do not see why it should be impossible. If it is worth considering I hope the right hon. Gentleman will consider it.
There is another thing I should also like to say in regard to these men. You are constantly requiring at home good old soldiers, non-commissioned officers and others, for the purpose of training your men here. I would urge that it ought to be one of the regulations that as far as possible these time-expired men who have done their duty, and who have the first claim to be brought home, should have home billets, if I may use that term. That is all I have to say. On the question of age, I think the right hon. Gentleman has made a most important confession, and one which, from many letters I have received, I think will be very much valued by these men. To have left the men who are already discharged at forty-one comfortably at home and to have taken on the men who are over forty-one compulsorily would have seemed to me to be an injustice. I am very glad the right hon. Gentleman has put forward the scheme of counting in the twelve years' service and making the service depend somewhat, at all events, upon their discharge. If the right hon. Gentleman will meet these other suggestions in the same sympathetic way he will do a great deal to allay the dissatisfaction which I think exists amongst a certain section of these time-expired men.
There are one or two points which still remain obscure after the speech of the President of the Local Government Board. I should like to know whether the time that a man spends in the reserve is to be included and counted as service. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up!"] It appears to me that the concession that has been offered by the Government does not after all amount to very much. I have been endeavouring to ascertain what is the age at which recruits joined the Army before the War broke out. I have not been able to ascertain that, but I think it is common knowledge that a vast number of those who join the Army join it at an age much below twenty-nine, and if that were the case, it seems to me that the concession which has been offered by the Government is going to affect a very small number indeed. Suppose that a young man joins at twenty-six or twenty-seven—and it is common knowledge that most of them join at a much earlier age than that, many of them at nineteen—and he enlists for the full term of twenty-one years, that man is not going to be affected by this concession at all.
I never heard of a man enlisting for twenty-one years straight away.
Of course I knew that quite well, but I meant altogether. At the final term of enlistment, for the purpose of extending to twenty-one years' service, that man will be considerably over forty-one years of age, and yet he is not going to be benefited at all by the concession the Government has made. All these time-expired men are entitled to our full sympathies, and surely they are entitled to the largest measure of compassion for the greatest length of service. The right hon. Gentleman gave us no figures as to the total number which was likely to be affected by this concession of twelve years' service coupled with the age of forty-one. The right hon. Gentleman (Sir E. Carson), who has on a great many occasions expressed his deep sympathy with these men, appears to be quite satisfied with the concession the Government has made. He spoke on the matter about a fortnight ago, and then expressed even deeper sympathy than he has uttered to-day, and upon that occasion he committed himself to the statement that there were about 40,000 of these men whose time was about to expire. Arising out of what I said just now in regard to those who enlisted below twenty-nine or thirty, and who have had an extended length of service, it must follow that only a very small number of this total of 40,000 will get the benefit of the concessions the Government has announced. The reason why no greater concession is to be given is because these men cannot be spared. Suppose we take it at 20,000, or even 30,000. Is it Seriously put forward that military necessity demands that these 30,000 men should be continued in the Army when under this Bill you are creating a reserve of 1,000,000 between eighteen and forty-one? The thing is perfectly absurd, and it is entirely inconsistent with the grounds upon which the advocates of this measure of Conscription have based their argument. They said there were men who were not doing their duty and they ought to be compelled to do their duty, and now they have taken up the position that a million of this reserve of 1,200,000 are to be kept at home for the next six months at any rate, and are not to be placed under military training, and you are going to keep these 30,000 or 40,000 time-expired men still in the arduous work of the trenches. Therefore the concession which the Government has foreshadowed is a very small one, and we who are responsible for Amendments of a much wider character cannot remain satisfied with it.
The number of men is not very great, but they are the very salt of the Army, and render important services. I trust when these time-expired men are called up, those who have special rank in the naval and military service will be restored to a like rank when they return to the Army. I know there is a great deal of uncertainty on this point in the country. I know it from the number of letters I have received and from some observations I have seen in the Press, and it is only fair to these men who have done their full service that when they are recalled they will not be recalled in a position of inferiority to that which they held in the service.
I answered a question on that to-day.
I am giving the Bill my support in the best way I can—by keeping silent; but I should like to say one word in answer to the hon. Member (Mr. Snowden). He says if these men are only 30,000 in number, it really does not matter so much from a military point of view. That is an entire fallacy, as is obvious to anyone who has had experience of the actual conditions. These men who have served a long time are for the most part non-commissioned officers. Many of them are company sergeant-majors. The whole working of a company depends very often on the senior non-commissioned officer, and these men have had experience of the work of the trenches, and their value is infinitely greater than their mere numbers. That certainly is a point of very great importance, and I view with some reluctance—speaking from six months' experience—even the concession which the Government have made. I feel it is made because these men have done such splendid service, but from the military point of view to lose your company sergeant-major at the moment when you want him most is a most serious matter. The question is altogether more important from the military point of view than the numbers would appear to indicate.
I rose to express almost identical feelings with those which the hon. and gallant Gentleman has so very well expressed, and which come with much greater force from him with his recent experience, than they would from my somewhat antiquated experience, but I think the hon. Member (Mr. Snowden) did not seem to realise, when he spoke of 20,000 men that it is not 20,000 men in one lump. It is 20,000 men distributed all over the Army that is in the field, and every single unit in that Army is dependent for its efficiency on perhaps some two or three or four or five or more of these men. Therefore the use of numbers like that in a lump gives a very false idea. I put a question to my right hon. Friend a short time ago as to whether men of this class would be allowed to remain on if they wished to do so, and I think I can say from my experience, which I hope is borne out by that of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, that men of that age and of that experience will go on to the very last. There is no limit to the sense of duty which they have. Both the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Long) and the right hon. Gentleman (Sir E. Carson) have touched on the point as to the benefits which these men are to receive from the State. I have been given to understand that the Amendment standing in my name which raises this question directly would be technically out of order. I do not wish to try to manœuvre around that position, but at the same time I should like to state what the classes of men are who will have to be provided for, and who will come under the Clause generally. The Clause generally may apply to various classes of men whose terms of service have expired. You have the class to which we have just lately been referring. They are the men of the Regular Army serving for the pension for long service. Then you have the men in the Regular Army serving the normal term, and the term of service might be expiring at twelve years, and who then, in normal conditions, might take on for pension service.
Then again you have the men enlisted in the New Army who have only taken a very limited engagement, and who will be compelled to remain on in some cases beyond the period of that limited engagement. Of course the majority of the men in the New Army have joined for the period of the War, and there will be no question of their continuance. But in the early part of the War there were some who enlisted for a short time of service, not necessarily the duration of the War—in many cases it was for three years, and it is conceivable that the War may last over that time, although we hope not. Then, again, there are men who have re-enlisted in the Army and who had previous service with the Colours—pensioned service—and who came back again and enlisted on various terms. If those terms of service are being extended it would seem right to include the extension within the limits of pension service in normal cases, and the men should have the benefit of that.
There is another point I would like to press on the right hon. Gentleman, and that is the value which is to be attributed to such service as that. We have had on many occasions in this House Debates on the question of soldiers employed in civil capacities under the Government. I have urged myself, and hon. Members on both sides have urged, that soldiers should be allowed to count for pension their Army service as part of their term in the Civil Service. We shall have cases after this War of men who have left lucrative positions in the Civil Service, and who have gone back into the Army. They will be sacrificing the period they are in the Army, because they will not be able to count it for pension under the Civil Service Regulations, which lay it down that they shall not count that service for civil pension. Owing to our haphazard methods in the way of raising our Army, whenever we have to deal with the question of the terms of service and the benefits that are to accrue, we are brought up by the complication of numbers of different cases which may arise. I am not quite sure whether I am making my meaning perfectly clear, but I was encouraged by the tone taken by the President of the Local Government Board in expressing his sympathy, and by the promise he gave with regard to bounties. I hope, therefore, that this question of increased pensions will not, be overlooked.
With regard to bounties, in my Amendment, which I understand it will not be in order to discuss, I dealt with the question as affecting the Territorial Force only—a Force which does not come within any of the regulations governing pensions. I rather deprecate the application of the system of bounties to men who have put in pensioned service or to men who come within the limits of the pension rules. I think it will be agreed that the bounty system, as a rule, is not satisfactory, and that where it is possible to place men within the category of pensionable service it is far better to do so. I hope I have been able to make my meaning clear, and that my right hon. Friend, who I am sure will give me a sympathetic answer, will also give one which is satisfactory. I should like to reinforce what fell from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Trinity College. All of us in this House would like before we part from this Bill to get some clear idea of what the men are going to have. It is all very well to say that the Treasury will consider the matter and that they will do so sympathetically. But the fact remains that expectations are aroused which perhaps may be exaggerated, and it is therefore far better that men should know at once what they are going to get, for the better the terms the more encouragement they will be afforded.
I think there will be absolute unanimity in the House in supporting the Government in every measure for treating these time-expired men generously. But when it comes to a question not of generosity of treatment but of a concession such as that which the right hon. Gentleman has indicated—of lowering the age beyond which a man will not be kept to forty-one—I do feel, when you are looking at it from the point of view of the national interest, that the suggested concession is a most unfortunate one. If the suggestion be that these men shall not stay in the trenches any longer, but shall be utilised for training purposes at home, I would agree, and I would like to see it brought forward in that form. If the concession is really carried out on the lines suggested, it will mean that that most valuable class of men, the sergeant-majors who have the training of the New Army, are going to be lost to the Service. They are not very numerous, perhaps, but they are a most important factor, and from the point of view of training they are of inestimable value. In fact, every single man is worth hundreds of other men. They are physically fit men. On the other hand, as everybody knows, these men, although of great value to the Army, are not, by reason of the fact that their whole life has been devoted to military service, likely to prove of any great industrial value. What will happen will be that most of them, with the proceeds of their bounties, will set up in a little shop, seeking to support themselves in some perfectly legitimate and laudable way, but they will not be found in any occupation of vital importance to the carrying on of this War by this, country.
The right hon. Gentleman said yesterday he would favourably consider a suggestion to add a provision to this Bill which would enable the House of Commons by Resolution to extend the age to forty-five. Personally I have not the slightest doubt, whether it is done by Resolution or by a new Bill, that the age will be extended to forty-five before very many months are over. What does that mean? It means that when you let these men go, when you have lost their services, it may be temporarily, to the Army, and when they have set up in business for themselves, they will, by a Resolution of the House of Commons, or by a new Bill, be suddenly brought back again to the Army. That would appear to me to be a most unfair, a most unfortunate, and, above all, a most uneconomic proceeding. The better method would have been to do as I have ventured to suggest, to make the age of liability of everybody called up higher. Then these men would remain and would have no grievance. These men are very much wanted from the point of view of Army training. The great mistake which the Government seem to make again and again is not to take a sufficiently serious view of this War It is always saying, "We are quite prepared to fight to the last man and to the last shilling." But when one makes any suggestion which is based on the assumption that they may possibly have to fight to the last man and the last shilling, and that therefore it is necessary to organise your men and your money in the most efficient way in the meantime, so as to make quite sure there is no waste, their cry is always "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." They say, "We may perhaps have to take every man some day. We may perhaps find ourselves in financial difficulties and have to impose more heavy taxation. But give us peace in our time and do not worry us." Fortunately a few of us have been worrying the Government during the last few months to do something, and if only the Government had not taken the line that they have persisted in we might have had a much more effective Service and a great deal of hardship as well as of weakness might have been avoided.
I believe that not only in this House but all over the country there is a great deal of sympathy with these time-expired men. I have been very much struck with what fell from the hon. and gallant Member for Monmouth (Major-General Sir Ivor Herbert) when he said that there was practically no limit to the sense of duty on the part of these men. The hon. and gallant Gentleman declined to use the word "sacrifice," because he objected to it. I want to point out we have to remember in considering this question in connection with this Bill that there is an element of compulsion attached to it. If, as is no doubt the case, there is almost no limit to the sense of duty on the part of these men, you will still get those who are willing to serve to come back to the Colours, because the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board has told us in an interjection that the voluntary principle will still stand for these time-expired men. But is it fair to suggest that men who have put in twenty-one years' service should be compelled without apparently recourse to any tribunal to consider any special circumstances should come back to the Colours? I believe the country is alive to this injustice, and I do not think the Government will carry public opinion with them if they attempt to force these men when it has already been demonstrated that it is unjust.
Those who do not voluntarily stay with the Colours will feel that they are serving under a sense of grievance, and we shall not be getting what we should get by their free gift of service to the country. I hope that the Government will not be content with the slight concession which has been made, but will accept the Amendment of the hon. Member opposite. I hope we shall be able to come to a decision on this point at once, because I believe there is a general feeling of sympathy in all parts of the House with these men, and we can then proceed to the consideration of other Amendments which are of very great importance.
6.0 P.M.
I have had a certain amount of experience, and I wish, if I may, to put in a word on behalf of the claims of these old soldiers. I am afraid the Committee has been rather led away from the real issue. Nearly every one of these men has got promotion, and I hope the Committee will see that they get fair treatment. Promotion, I would point out, in itself is not much encouragement. What we have to do is to see if we keep them that they are given the pay they are worth. We have been told that these men are worth a great deal more as soldiers than they would be as civilian workmen. Let us see then that they are paid a wage which they are really worth. Having been in the trenches with them for months I know what these men have done. I know they have been looking forward to coming home. I know that they are ready to do anything they can for their country, and I do hope care will be taken not to inflict a great hardship upon them. I do not wish to press this too far, but do let us see that they do get fair terms, and that before this Bill leaves the House these men are going to have a real reward for what they have done.
The point of view of the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just spoken led me to put down an Amendment dealing with the question of reward for these men, because we heard again to-day that the proposal of the Government is to give either promotion or a bounty, whereas, as the hon. and gallant Member has pointed out, promotion would not be the best course in the case of these men, who might not in all cases be suitable for promotion. You might quite likely promote men not suitable, who would not help the Army. With regard to the question of bounty, I do not think that that is what he wants, or deserves after the special claim which we are putting on him to serve again, after having done, perhaps, fifteen months' or nearly two years' service already. I would much sooner that this service should count towards pension in the future. The particular class of men to which this should apply is not the man who has nearly completed twenty-one years' service, because he automatically comes on to the pension, and a bounty would not help him half so much, to my mind, as a slight increase in the pay. But the man with twelve years' service is the man, I think, who deserves special treatment, especially if part of his twelve years has been served in the Reserve, because that portion of his service in the Reserve disqualifies him for a pension, which is not quite what the President of the Local Government Board said just now, that all service counts for pension. It does not. It is only service with the Colours that counts for pension, if he is discharged at the end of fourteen years. That is the case which most undoubtedly applies to the claims of all the younger men who are being pressed now for further service. I hope that the question of pension will be much more closely considered than the question of bounty. In reference to the Territorial Force, those men have been placed on a four years' basis, and they can extend themselves to an eight years' basis, and they can be kept on, in a national emergency, for an additional year. It may well be that those men who are now compelled to stay on until the end of the War should get a bounty, because I think that a bounty in this case is the most suitable in due proportion to the service that they serve. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Trinity College suggested an increase of pay to these men. There, again, I do not think that that is exactly what is wanted. I think that a pension is much more suitable than an increase of pay, and I hope that that will be the line to be adopted.
In connection with the question of pensions, I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend who has just sat down that it has been engaging the very careful and sympathetic attention of the authorities at the War Office. I am not prepared at the moment to say that the extra service will count for the pension which is payable at the end of fourteen years' service. We have not come to a definite decision at the moment on that point, but I hope that my hon. and gallant Friends will be satisfied with the assurance that the extra service which the man compulsorily retained, or the man who goes back after discharge renders, will count either towards the qualification for pension or towards an increase in the amount of the pension. Generally speaking, the added service that these men will render will count towards pension. There is no use in counting a short period of service for earning the grant of a very small pension. Therefore, I share the view that in dealing with Territorials and short-service men who are compulsorily retained it is far better to give them their reward in the shape of a bounty. To put the thing in a nutshell, so far as my view is concerned, I think that we should see as far as possible in rewarding these men for their services that we should compensate them for the element of compulsion by awarding them a bounty. I only wish that I was in a position to say exactly what that bounty would be. I quite realise the anxiety of the House to know what the Government decide on that point, and my right hon. Friend says that he hopes to make every effort to inform the House on this point to-morrow. I hope, with that assurance, that the Committee will now bring the discussion to an end.
We have already had twelve speeches on this Motion.
I am not going to make a speech, but I am going to make a suggestion. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman is going to consider the question of exempting some of the time-expired men. If so, will he endeavour to place the Army and Navy as nearly as possible on the same footing? Seamen may serve for five years and the Marines for two years, beyond their time of twenty-two years, in this War, so that takes them well beyond forty-one years of age. A sense of injustice will be created in the Navy if you make great differences in the Army. I think the right hon. Gentleman had better take that point into consideration, because, after all, these men are exceedingly good men and too valuable to part with in such a War. They have retained the men in the Navy, and I do not see why a corresponding rule should not be followed in the Army.
The hon. Member for Birmingham talked about my decision and so on. The decision is one which has been arrived at by the Army Council, and they arrived at their decision with a full knowledge of the number of men affected, and what the result will be in regard to the number of men who are covered by this Amendment. I do not want there to be any misunderstanding. The effect of the Amendment of my hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Ashley) will be this, that this Clause will apply to men of twelve years' service, and those who are now serving and who are over the age of forty-one. Therefore men of twelve years' service will be exempted from it. That means that this Clause will not apply to those who are now serving who are prepared to re-engage and to come under the definition of my hon. Friend. With regard to men in the Navy and the system in operation there, I do not think that it is possible for the Army Council to make the arrangement suggested without notice. I quite agree with my hon. Friend that these are the most valuable men whom we have got, and I am quite sure that the Army Council will take care to see that no avoidable injury is done, I appeal to the Committee to accept the compromise offered on behalf of the Government. I do not suppose for a moment that it is sufficient for everybody, but it is very important that we should get on. There is a very great deal of work to do, and this Bill must be finished. The Army Council impress upon me that every day makes a difference to them. It is very urgent that we should get through with it, and I most urgently appeal to the Committee to let us come to a decision with reference to this Amendment.
I would not delay the passage of this Bill by one minute if I could help it, but there is a small point on which we hoped to hear the Financial Secretary give an answer to-day. Perhaps he overlooked it. That was the question of bounty, or pension, as to whether the Army Council or the Treasury will consider the question of the man counting his service in the Army towards his Civil pension. After the War we shall a great many cases of that sort arising.
Obviously I am not in a position to reply to that question. It should be addressed to the Treasury and not to the War Office, but we shall take care that the point is pressed strongly upon the Treasury.
It would meet the wishes of the Government, I suppose, if I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment, with a view to supporting the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Stock-port (Mr. Wardle) later on.
It is better to have a Division on this Amendment. It is really the same as the Amendment in the name of an hon. Friend of mine a little afterwards. We have the double condition introducing a very unknown quantity and quality. Therefore I think we will have to resist the withdrawal.
If the Amendment is not withdrawn, I do not see how we can take the Amendment to which the hon. Member now refers.
I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
On a point of Order. Does not this Amendment raise a different point altogether from the Amendment of the hon. Member who comes on afterwards?
It is quite covered by this.
It is covered by the discussion but not by the Amendment.
If you negative this Amendment I shall not feel justified in taking this other one, because it is covered substantially by the discussion which has taken place.
I submit, on a point of Order, that some of us wish to take the opinion of the House on the proposal to release these men when they attain the age of forty-one, without the condition that they shall have served the fourteen years. That is why we propose to refuse leave to withdraw the Amendment, in order that we might divide in favour of the Amendment moved by the hon. Gentleman opposite. That is the difficulty in which we find ourselves. Perhaps you will be good enough to enable us to give effect to our wishes.
I am sorry to interfere with the speeches of hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway, but we have the decision already announced on behalf of the Government. We are prepared to accept the Amendment of the hon. Member for Blackpool in the form in which it appears on the Paper in the names of two hon. Gentlemen who attach to the age a period of service. It is immaterial to me if the Committee decides that, but I must ask them to come to a decision. If my hon. Friend presses his Amendment in its present form I shall vote for it, but it must be clearly understood that if the forms of the House do not enable me on the part of the Government to amend it so as to bring in the period of years of service, I shall vote for it on the understanding that I shall move to amend it on the Report stage.
I am rather deceived by what has taken place. I distinctly asked the Chairman at the beginning of this Debate, when the right hon. Gentleman agreed that he would give a general statement, whether, if that statement were made and a debate took place on the Amendment which is proposed by the hon. Member for Blackpool, I would be in order with the Amendment standing in my name on the next page. I was assured that I would be in order. If this Amendment is defeated, will my Amendment become out of order?
May I make a suggestion—it is that we should modify the pre- sent Amendment by inserting the words "for the period of twelve years or"?
If the right hon. Gentleman moves that as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment I should accept it.
I suggest that the Amendment should be amended by inserting, after the word "sections," the words "has served the period of twelve years."
I think it would be much better that the Amendment should be put in writing, or it can be moved on the Report stage. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board accepts the Amendment of the hon. Member for Blackpool (Mr. Ashley), but he reserves to himself the right on the Report stage to move an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, which would really be substantially the same as that submitted by the Under-Secretary for War.
Words, "Provided the man referred to in such Sections is under the age of forty-one," there inserted.
I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to add the words, "But this Section shall not apply in the case of an only surviving son of a parent who has already lost one or more sons in the present War."
This raises a point which I have been asked to bring forward, but it will not affect many cases. I think it will be admitted that in appeals to the tribunals the only son of a widow is not called upon by those tribunals. I am told by my hon. Friend near me that this is very generally understood. I think it is a small concession which the Amendment asks for. There are cases where the elder son, for instance, is one of the time-expired men. The younger sons have gone to the War, having volunteered after it began. One or more of them is cut off or killed. The eldest son only is left, and his friends are looking forward to the expiration of his time of service, as he is the only son. As I have said, I do not think it will affect many men, and I submit it for the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman in order to see whether we can accept it or not.
I am very much obliged to my hon. Friend, but I hope he will not press his Amendment, for this reason: It is quite true that in the parent Act the tribunals have power to release men before they become soldiers in respect of this and other reasons; but it is very undesirable to impose a legal limitation which will have to be put into effect, not by the tribunals sitting to inquire into all cases, but by officers commanding at the front, who may have cases of this kind which might prove to be quite incorrect, and which would involve them in a great deal of work. At present the military authorities have power, where special cases are brought to their notice, to deal with them, and already, in more than one instance, the military authorities have so dealt with such cases. I am quite convinced that in special cases of this kind the military authorities will lend a ready ear to any application that is made.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to add the words "and for Home defence only."
I do not want to add anything to what has been said in regard to the services of time-expired men. The men to whom I refer are perfectly willing to continue, though they have been through the whole of the War, but if they are required to continue their service they ask that they should serve at home and not at the front. I had in my possession yesterday a letter from a time-expired man who had been wounded once, gassed once, and buried alive once. That man has done his work at the front, and we cannot expect the human machine to be in the same state of fitness for work at the front as it was before those injuries were inflicted upon it. But the writer of the letter is perfectly willing, and so are hundreds of others in the Service—men who are in the same predicament, men who have done their work at the front, and who are ready to continue their work because they believe that the State requires their assistance, but who ask that they should be reengaged and allowed Home service only, and not service at the front.
I hope that my right hon. and gallant Friend will not press his Amendment. I have consulted our military advisers and the Army Council and their view can be easily and shortly presented to the Committee. It is that it would be impossible really to give these men an absolute right to Home service, and it is absolutely essential that some of these men should in many cases remain where they are stationed at the front. I am assured that they are ready to return to the positions they have there. The Army Council, where possible, and still more where it is desirable, in such a case as the gallant man to whom my right hon. Friend referred, would wish to make such provision as would enable the men to render the best service at the front, but they could not incur an obligation of this kind, which it would be very difficult to carry out, and which would be taken advantage of by a large number of men, while it would materially reduce the efficiency of our Army. I hope my right hon. and gallant Friend will not press his Amendment. I have great sympathy with its object, so have the Army Council, and, from personal experience, I may state that no one has greater sympathy with this object, or is more anxious to carry it out in the case of time-expired men, than is the Government, in whose hands the ultimate control of this part of the administration rests.
In deference to what has fallen from my right hon. Friend, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment, though I confess it is with regret.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to add the words, "but a soldier retained in the Army under this Section shall have the right of reengaging for such further period of Army service as will qualify him for pension."
After the last discussion which has taken place on the Amendment of the hon. Member for Blackpool, and after the eloquent expression of sympathy felt for time-expired men which has fallen from my right hon. Friend, it is not necessary for me to take up the time of the Committee in discussing either the merits of the men or the hardships imposed upon them. I want to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he does not realise that the older a man is when he leaves the Service, the less able he is to take up a skilled trade. The object of my Amendment is to allow these men to remain with the Colours until they can come in for pension, or, if they should not be eligible for pension, that they should be given some sort of employment by the Government which would be at a wage sufficiently high for them, but a wage not too high to prevent their getting industrial employment.
Will the hon. Gentleman explain how his Amendment would apply?
All the men would have the right to serve to get pension.
I think I understand what my hon. Friend really wants, but the form of words in his Amendment would give every soldier in the Territorial, Regular, and other Forces, after a short period of service, the right to re-engage up to the full twenty-one years. I do not think he wants to go so far as that. What I think he really wants is that when a man becomes time-expired, after the end of twelve years' service, he shall have the opportunity, if he wishes to do so, of re-engaging for pension.
I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move to leave out the Clause.
I think it is necessary to understand the present position after the Amendment which has been accepted and the promised alteration by the right hon. Gentleman. As I understand the position with regard to time-expired men, it is that they shall not be allowed to leave the Army unless they fulfil a two-fold obligation; that is to say, that they shall have attained the age of forty-one and shall have served twelve years in the Army, with a year added for war time. With all due respect to those more familiar with Army conditions, I think the concession is a small one, and so far as I can gather can only apply to very few time-expired men. We were told in the course of the discussion that if all time-expired men were to leave the Army it would mean a very large proportion of men who are indispensable, and particularly sergeant-majors and non-commissioned officers. There is a large number who belong to neither, and, in my opinion, they are in the majority. It is a serious matter this repeated tearing up of scraps of paper. The whole world is becoming littered with scraps of paper in the course of this War. I am not going to argue the question, but it is necessary to mention different examples of the tearing up of scraps of paper and the discarding of rights of men who have done their duty. The Territorial units were to be kept together. That is a scrap of paper that is torn up, as they are to be interchangeable. The Territorials were to be enlisted for home service. That is another scrap of paper torn up, and now, on top of all these, there is this additional outrage, for I con- sider it is an outrage, put upon those who have done their duty and have borne the heat and burden of the day in the trenches by keeping them there whether they want to remain or not. I am quite certain a large number of them are quite willing to go on, but they want to go on as free men and with proper consideration. Those of them who do not wish to go on are fully entitled to their freedom. Some of them have been looking forward to that freedom while in the trenches undergoing their hard and arduous time.
I desire to refer to the case of miners and men working in reserved occupations prior to the War and who after the declaration of war were called to the Colours, went to France, completed their engagement and have returned to the mines. We have a number of those men in my Constituency.
Are not the observations of the hon. Baronet directed to the next Clause?
I think that is so. The hon. Baronet has not observed that the case to which he refers comes under Clause 3, and not that which we are now discussing.
There is one very small point to which I should like to draw attention. The right hon. Gentleman has made a concession in regard to men of forty-one years of age whose engagement expires after twelve years' service, and they are to be free to leave the Service. I suggest to him that that is going beyond what is really necessary. These men are most useful as instructors at home, and by their long service have experience and authority for this special work. I see no reason why they should be released altogether from the Service. I would suggest to the Government to consider whether it would not be sufficient to say that a man of forty-one years who has served twelve years shall be released from obligations to serve abroad. In that way a certain class of men will be retained for purposes which they will be perfectly content to discharge and for which they are exceedingly well fitted.
I offer a very strong protest against any reconsideration of the concession which was given on my Amendment. That Amendment has been on the Paper for several days, and the concession has been given after full consideration. Under this Bill we are trying to get in everybody between eighteen and forty-one, and we should not go outside the four corners of those ages. If you do, you are creating inequalities, injustices, and bad feeling.
Probably no proposal in this Bill has met with so much, I do not say opposition, as expressions of regret as the one we are now considering. Sympathy for the time-expired man has been most profusely expressed in all quarters of the House. In my opinion there are a great many hard cases. I would not go so far as to say that the case of the time-expired man is more serious than that of some others which are included in this Bill, but if I were to attempt to regulate these cases in the order of gravity I think the time-expired man comes second after the proposal to conscript children. I rose mainly to say that the Clause as amended is not satisfactory to my Friends or to myself, and on the Report stage, when the Government propose an Amendment to deal with the twelve years' service men, I want to give them warning that we shall endeavour to make the proposal of a more far-reaching character. The concession of the Government is practically nothing at all, it will create a new grievance, and you will have men in the trenches who have far longer service there than men who are going to be released. There are other objections to the concession which we shall put forward when the proper time comes.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bradford (Mr. Jowett) referred to the seriousness of this repeated breaking of engagements into which men have entered under the solemn promise and trust of the Government. I wonder do the Government realise what effect this is going to have upon the confidence which men have hitherto reposed in the pledged word of the Government. Hon. Members opposite who have for years been agitating for compulsory military service will remember that Lord Roberts always met the arguments which its opponents advanced that compulsory service for Home defence might in time of war be changed by order of the Government into compulsory service in foreign lands by saying that that could not be done, and that a Territorial Army raised under a system of compulsion would be for Home defence only, and that the men thus enrolled would not without their consent be sent abroad in time of war. All that has gone. I wonder if the Government realise what effect that is going to have upon the future of our military organisation in this country. There is one thing it will certainly do, and that is to destroy the voluntary system once and for all, because you are not going to get men in the future to volunteer into the Territorial Force when they have this precedent constantly before their eyes, and when they realise that lay volunteering for Home defence they make themselves liable for foreign service if war breaks out. This is a most serious matter. As my hon. Friend said, the whole of Europe is littered with torn-up treaties and obligations and scraps of paper. I find that the military correspondent of the "Times" newspaper, in the same article yesterday from which I have already quoted, describes this very proposal as the tearing up of a scrap of paper. On what grounds do the Government justify it? They justify it on the grounds of military necessity. On what ground did Prussia justify her action in tearing up the Treaty of 1839, and the invasion of Belgium. She justified it solely on the ground of military necessity. We have had a great many indications of Prussian methods in this country, and this is the latest of them, the tearing up and regarding of solemn obligations merely us "scraps of paper." The seriousness of this policy cannot rest at to-day. The effect of it will be long and far-reaching. I firmly believe that the Government are creating for the future problems of the utmost and terrible gravity.
I want to ask hon. Members opposite whether they wish to win the War and to help the country?
I am not called upon to answer questions put by the hon. Member, but if I did reply my answer would be that the methods incorporated in this Bill are far more likely to lose the War for us than to win it.
This has really nothing to do with the Clause under consideration.
The necessity that hon. Members opposite deplore has been brought about entirely by their own act. They have done nothing to help recruiting since the War began. They have adopted obstructive tactics, they have objected to every form of compulsion and now, when we are forced into the military necessity of providing trained men quickly, we find ourselves in this position and they obstruct still. I would ask them, if they want to help the country, to abandon their obstructive tactics, and to withdraw these Amendments, which only waste the time of the House.
I am afraid that the hon. and gallant Member is not helping business.
How are the men who will be affected viewing the action that we are now taking? We are refusing to thousands of men the right to which they have been looking forward, of returning to their homes, their families, and their businesses. I have received a number of intimations that the feeling caused by this policy is very serious, and is damaging the enthusiasm, the spirit, and the discipline of the Army. I have read only this week a letter from a constituent of mine, of whom I can speak in high terms. Writing from France, where he has been for a year, he states that he had previously served in the Regular Army and in the City of Bristol Engineers. He says:— On the understanding that I should be given the rank of corporal, which I have held, on my re-enlistment, I left my wife and eight children, two of whom have since died, and my business as a master builder, which is now probably ruined. It is a rather long letter, and I will quote the conclusion to which he comes: My great grandfather was a major in the Scots Greys, my father an officer in His Majesty's Navy, I have a brother serving as an officer, and my father fought in the Crimea and Indian Mutiny. I can therefore claim to have strong military traditions. My feeling to-day is that in my country's need I was willing to carry on to the end, but I cannot bring myself to serve under the gross injustice now laid upon me. I am come out here to fight for honour and justice, and now I am treated in this way. I feel that I would rather die by the hands of my own comrades, facing a shooting party, a martyr to justice, honour and promises, than carry out a policy which is contradictory and unjust in itself. I know this man. [HON. MEMBERS: "Name!"] I am not going to give any more indication which may lead to his identification. I am glad and surprised to have received this letter at all; but I have had other indications that there is the strongest feeling of resentment in the ranks. I do not say that it is universal, or even that it is the feeling of the majority of the men who are being forced to stay on, but I say without any hesitation whatever that it does exist, and that it is a danger, a cruelty, and a shame. If we are going to win the War by calling on these men on the plea of military necessity in this way, we are going to make the War unpopular, weaken our national cause, and not add to our strength in the field.
Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 232; Noes, 33.
CLAUSE 3.—(Modification of Exceptions from Service.)
(1) Paragraph five of the First Schedule to the principal Act shall cease to have effect so far as it relates to men who have been discharged from the naval or military service of the Crown on the termination of their period of service.
(2) Paragraph six of the First Schedule to the principal Act shall, on the first day of August, nineteen hundred and sixteen, cease to apply to a man who has offered himself for enlistment and been rejected since the fourteenth day of August, nineteen hundred and fifteen, unless the Army Council are satisfied that he need not again present himself for medical examination, and send him notice to that effect.
(3) Sub-section (5) of Section two of the principal Act shall have effect as if the words "before the appointed date" were omitted therefrom.
I beg to move, to leave out Sub-section (1).
7.0 P.M.
I shall endeavour to be as brief as I possibly can in moving this, partly because that from the various hon. Gentlemen who are associated with me in this Amendment we shall doubtless have a variety of points of view, whilst I shall also get a certain amount of support from rather unexpected quarters. The effect of the Amendment would be that men who are already out of the Army, having done their time—in the majority of such cases they will be those men who have done their bit in the present War—having taken their discharge under the Army Regulations which are at present in force, would not go back. The proposal of the Government is that a man, if he has done his time in the Army, however long that time may have been, shall now, if he is under forty-one years of age, go back to the Army as a conscript. I will mention two or three cases which are actually known to me which will, I think, show at once the unfairness and even the ridiculousness of the proposal. The one is the case of a man who has been in the Army for twenty-two years. During that time he has had an exemplary character. He was discharged on 26th January, 1916, after having served eighteen months in the War. He is now forty years and six months old, so that if he is conscripted, as I suppose he will be, he will be out of the Army in five months.
No, No!
He will be forty-one years of age then.
He will continue in the Army.
Well, then it is all the more unjust that a man who has done twenty-two years' service should be forced to go on indefinitely in the Army. In January last this man left the Army without any invitation or inducement being put to him by his officers to continue in the Army. Why, I do not know. The real reason I suspect was that they did not want to have this old soldier of forty years, and with twenty-two years' service continuing amongst men who were the new recruit of what we know as Kitchener's Army Whatever the reason, the fact is certain that he was not even asked to continue in the Service. He left the Army and settled in London and took up a little business which, if he is obliged to go back to the Army, will be ruined, together with his whole position and prospects. I say it is an atrocious thing that a man of that character should be brought back into the Army and conscripted at a 1s. a day. He was receiving a 1s. a day together with good conduct, or service pay, I believe they call it, of 7d. a day. The proposal in relation to men of this class is perfectly monstrous and ridiculous.
Let me take another case which possibly will commend itself more to hon. Members of the House. This is the case of a well-known literary gentleman. He was an officer for some years in a regiment which I need not indicate. He left the Army for good reasons. At the beginning of the War he offered his services. He has repeatedly offered them in a special direction where, I believe, he might have been employed and done good and useful work. He was refused again and again. He is under thirty-nine years of age. This ex-officer, who has offered himself for service again and again during the War is now to be conscripted as a private soldier at a shilling a day. Here, again, the thing is perfectly monstrous. In relation to hard cases of this sort no modifications apparently are contemplated in the Bill. I myself know at least three ex-officers who for one reason or another have not gone back into the Army. They might have gone back, but I believe in each case the reasons were good, and, certainly, two of them have offered their services. These three ex-officers are all over thirty. They are liable to be conscripted as private soldiers at a shilling a day. It is a shame. Such arrangements are not going to make the ranks of any unit in which such men are any stronger. It is going to put a feeling of injustice about—what I should term a feeling of irrational weakness—in the men who are drafted into the unit. I have the very greatest confidence that even if this Clause in this form is put through something will be done to mitigate hard cases such as I have indicated. Possibly before the tribunals such men may get some justice, though I do not think on the lines on which some tribunals have given exemption that there is much hope for them. I do, however, without hesitation say that the Government has not really considered the cruelty and injustice of this proposal, and I have, therefore, the very greatest pleasure in moving the deletion of this Sub-section.
Though my name is associated with this Amendment, I have no intention of moving to that effect. I simply put my name down in order to raise one specific point. That is the position of men who have been non-commissioned officers or officers before and who are now called up. These men are now being called up, as we understand, as private soldiers. To-day at question time the Under-Secretary for War was good enough to say—and I appreciate his attitude—that any man—if I correctly interpret his answer—who served as a non-commissioned officer, when he is called up, will be given that same rank, though not necessarily in the same unit. I quite understand that it is possible that he may not get into the same unit. But I will put it to the right hon. Gentleman that the same measure of justice must be done to old officers. There are men who have served as officers in the South African campaign. They got their commissions, some from the Yeomanry, and so on, for gallantry in the field. They have been in civil life since. If the War Office calls them up again they must in justice make them officers. I do not see how there can be a discrimination between non-commissioned officers and commissioned officers. If the War Office consider that a man should receive back his non-commissioned rank, it is only right that officers should receive their old rank. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will answer that point when he speaks.
I would say that the question of my hon. Friend opposite is rather a different question to that of the non-commissioned ranks. I cannot give any promise on the point without consultation with the military authorities. I am sure the hon. Member would not be so unreasonable as to expect me at once to reply.
No; but I am in the difficulty so far as these men are concerned of not being able to see any difference between the case of the non-commissioned officer and the commissioned officer. Commissioned rank is presumably given to the individual because he has fitted himself for it and has gained it through his merit. Therefore, I cannot see, if you give it to the one man, why it should not be given to the other.
I desire to support the Amendment, though we have just been beaten in the Lobby in relation to a somewhat similar principle. Let me point out to my right hon. Friend who has charge of the Bill that there is in this particular Sub-section what could not be alleged perhaps in quite the same way against the case of the men we have just been considering. Paragraph (5) of the First Schedule of the original Act says:
"Men who have been discharged from the Naval or Military Service of the Crown on the termination of their period of service."
We have been discussing time-expired men who may again be called to the Colours to complete their period of service. Those in this Sub-section have actually done with the Army and done with the Navy. On the strength of being finished with either Service, or both, these men, as my right hon. Friend well knows from his own personal acquaintance with many of them, have actually gone into business of one kind or another, and have undertaken very serious and varied liabilities. He will, I think, agree that it is much more difficult to bring a man who has actually severed his connection with the Service, and who has gone into a small business of one kind or another, back into the Army. I think that is really an aggravated form, and unless my right hon. Friend can assure the Committee that the number of men involved is so many, and that the services they will be able to render are so necessary to the Army, I do think that this is a case in which my right hon. Friend might give way to the Mover of the Amendment.
I should like to ask whether, in regard to this Clause, as in regard to the last—the question of a man who has served for a long period—the Government would accept a reservation in regard to the number of men they would call up. Secondly, I would like to ask whether a man who has been in the Naval Service is to be called up in the Army, or whether, if he is to be called up in the Navy and not in the Army, this Bill really does not go beyond the title. With regard to the point raised by the hon. Member opposite, which was not replied to fully by the Under-Secretary of State for War, I should like to point out that there has been an Amendment on the Paper for some time, and I think the right hon. Gentleman might have been in a position to give a definite answer.
There is one case which has not yet been referred to in this discussion. This Clause, as it now stands, does not merely affect those who have completed their term of service in the Army, and who have made no offer for further service, but it will actually operate against those men who have completed their term of service during the War, and have volunteered for a further term, but whose offer has not been accepted by the War Office authorities. Only quite recently I submitted to the War Office an application of a man who had served twelve years in the Army, and who during the progress of this War was discharged because he had completed his period of twelve years' service. The man himself made application for a further term of service, as he wished to complete twenty-one years' service in the Army. His application was rejected. The man wrote to me, and I submitted his case to the War Office, but the War Office regretted that they were unable to entertain his proposal. It does seem to me a perfectly scandalous thing to propose a provision of this kind on the ground of military necessity, when the War Office during the-conduct of this War have themselves refused to avail themselves of the voluntary help of those who have completed one period of service and were ready to serve their country for a further period. I do think some undertaking must be given in cases of that kind, where a man, having had his offer rejected, might not be required to serve again. It is certainly not fair to tell a man under these circumstances, when you have declined his voluntary offer, that he must become a conscript under the new conditions of this Bill.
I should like to ask whether it is intended to give any bounty or any concession to those men who are recalled to the Colours, on the same lines as the President of the Local Government Board has already promised should be given to those men who are retained in the Colours? I may point out there has-been an Army Order in force since 20th February, 1916, under which these men, if they had been willing to stay on with the Colours, could have claimed and received £15 bounty. Many of them—the majority of them, I fear—have taken their discharge, under the belief that they were entitled to do so. They have at the present moment, I fear, forfeited all right to this £15, but if some concession is going to be given—and I hope it is—to those men who are compulsorily retained with the Colours,. I think the case to these men who have-recently taken their discharge and forfeited their claim to this bounty should, in common justice, be considered. I should be very grateful if any statement could be made on this point. Both as regards the men retained and also as regards those who are called back, I think it is difficult to say which is the fairest—some concession with regard to pension, or some increase of pay while they are retained with the Colours, or called back, or whether they should receive a bounty. Each case will, more or less, have to be dealt with on its merits, and I would suggest, if possible, that the men should be given the choice according to their individual cases of what is best suited to them. In any case I think we should preserve the principle that these men are worthy of their hire and worth paying a little extra for.
The hon. Member for Somerset, who moved to omit the Sub-section, gave us two cases which he claimed, in somewhat strong language, were cases which showed the absurdity of this Bill. It is quite easy for anybody who has sufficient industry to produce hard cases in relation to any part of this Bill, or any Bill which deals with compulsory service. What the critics of the Government seem to overlook is that compulsory service involves hardship and sacrifice because it makes a certain number of men do what they were unwilling to do. If everybody were willing to join the Colours in sufficient numbers obviously you would not require any compulsion. Compulsion is necessary because we are engaged in a great War, because immense demands are made upon us in order to play our part in conjunction with our Allies, to do justice by them, and in these circumstances we are bound as a Government to ask the country for the powers which are contained in this Bill. We do not deny—it would be ridiculous to do so—that in imposing this fresh burden on the nation some people will be called upon to undergo a hardship and an additional sacrifice, and, therefore, merely to advance certain hard cases, which are the result of an immense amount of industry, searching and inquiry, in order to find hard cases, by the hon. Member for Somerset, does not justify the condemnation he sought to pass upon the proposals contained in this Clause. The hon. Member for Blackpool (Mr. Ashley) asked about the men who have obtained non-commissioned rank. In all those cases they return to the Colours in the rank which they enjoyed when they left, exactly in the same way as they do when they go to the Reserve and come from the Reserve to the Colours.
That is not in the Bill.
It is not necessary to put it in the Bill. After all, there is nothing new in this. Men pass through the Reserve and are brought back to the Colours, and when they are brought back to the Colours they return to the rank which they held before, and, therefore, as I am advised—and I can only act on the advice I get, as I am not an expert in these matters —it is unnecessary to put this in the Act of Parliament. However, that particular point is raised in another form later on.
These are not Reserve men.
But they pass when they are conscripted automatically into the Reserve. That is the machinery of the Bill. With regard to the commissioned ranks, my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for War said he was unable to give a definite answer, and I think the Committee will realise that it would not be possible to promise that every man who has served in the commissioned rank, and is not now in the Army, should be reinstated at once in the commissioned rank. There are, undoubtedly, cases where this would not be desirable in the interest of the Army, but I think in the majority of cases this would follow, and certainly, so far as the Army Council is concerned, I know it is their intention to make use of this power with discrimination, because they do not want to inflict undue hardship, nor do they want to fill the Army with men who would be undesirable. I do not know anything about the case which the hon. Member for Somerset quoted—that of a man who had served eighteen years and was not asked to re-engage. At one time—I did not know it was as late as last January—no offer was made, I believe, to prevent men whose service had expired, or was expiring, to reengage, or induce them to re-engage. It is very easy now, of course, to indulge in the sort of remark the hon. Member for Birmingham is so fond of making—namely, that the Army Council are never looking ahead.
I said the Government.
I am quite aware of that, and-1 regard it as singularly unfair, having regard to the hon. Member's position, that he seeks to draw that distinction, because, serving as he does in the War Office, no one can know better that in these matters the Government act under the advice of the Army Council.
I think I must be allowed to make an explanation. The right hon. Gentleman has, I think, no doubt entirely unintentionally and inadvertently, misrepresented the work I do in the War Office and the position I hold there—an entirely subordinate work in a particular Department which does not bring me in any way in contact with the Army Council, or the decisions of the Army Council, or any branch of that, and in regard to recruiting I am in exactly the same position as any hon. Member in this House.
I was under the impression that everybody serving in the War Office serves under the Army Council.
So does every soldier in the Army.
And so does every soldier in the Army. Therefore, I do not think it is fair—I am giving the hon. and gallant Member credit for special knowledge on this subject, which I know he possesses— but I say I do not think it is fair to draw a distinction in these matters between the Government and the Army Council. In these matters we are acting on the advice of the Army Council, and are only acting as their mouthpiece in the House of Commons, and I say it is very easy to blame the Army Council or the Government—I 'do not in the least desire to shirk the responsibility; I have never done that in my life in the House of Commons—and to say they are not looking forward, and have not done things they ought to have done in the past. Perhaps they ought to have done them, but let me remind the Committee that "it is never too late to mend," and if these mistakes were made, it is no use wasting time and blaming them because they made them. The best thing to do is to take such steps as seem to them and us the best to repair the mischief now. With regard to the rank of officers and men, I think the case is as stated, and I do not think it is unwise or wrong of the Under-Secretary of State for War to guard himself as regards the question of officers.
The hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Wardle) has asked whether the Government would be prepared to limit the number of men in regard to the case of men with a number of years' service? I do not think it desirable or possible to introduce such a Clause in the Bill. This Clause applies only to men of a certain age, namely, from eighteen to forty-one. It gives the Army Council power to call up those men and deal with them, and I think they may be trusted not to take men whom it is undesirable to take. With regard to the Navy, they get first call upon the men who are within their special domain, and, so far as they are concerned, I think they are very well able to take care' of themselves. With regard to bounties, of course the same principle applies to those men obviously as those in the preceding Clause. Whatever the bounties are or the conditions on which they are granted to the men, they will apply to the men who are recalled. With regard to the general question, I have already said that the Army Council have exercised their discretion. Beyond that, let me remind the Committee that every man who conies in under this Clause has the same power, and all that happens is that the exemptions in the original Act are removed by this Clause. As regards the time-expired men nobody denies that we are making great demands upon them, and it is only because the country really needs their services that we are asking them to make this special effort.
With reference to what the right hon. Gentleman said about the Navy, is it the intention of the Government that in the case of a man who has served for years in the Navy, and has been discharged, if the Navy do not want him at that moment to go back, under those circumstances will he be enlisted in the Army and serve in the Army?
Yes.
In the case of a man who is already in the Army and his time may expire in two or three weeks, I think there is some justification in trying to retain that man's services, but where a man has received a discharge and done a great deal of Army service in days gone by, I think it is a great hardship for him to be forcibly called upon again to serve. T would just like to quote from a letter I have received in connection with this matter. One of these men writes to me as follows: I for one consider it absolutely unjust and illegal and certainly a breach of confidence that I have to return after eighteen months' war service, while some of those cowardly men get total exemption at the tribunals. I hear that four sons of Mr.—have all got total exemptions as conscientious objectors. Under the circumstances I feel in duty bound to support this Amendment, and if it is pressed to a Division I shall vote for it. I have backed up the Government all along, but I think the time has arrived in regard to these particular men when we shall have to part company.
I want to ask if these men have the right of appeal to the tribunals the same as any other men?
Yes, just the same right exactly.
The right hon. Gentleman asked how many men were involved in this proposal. If they happen to be a valuable contribution to the Army the Government may be justified in resorting to all the meanness involved in this proposal. These men have served in the Army and been discharged, and their voluntary services have been refused three months ago by the Military Service Act. On the strength of that they have entered into obligations and re-entered civil life on the assumption that they would not be called upon. Now we are going to be mean enough in many cases to ruin them, destroy their small savings, and compel them to come back into the Army. A good many of these men are accustomed to military life; they like it, and of their own volition I know a large number of them would go into the Army without any sense of the gross injustice involved in the recancellation of this exemption which was in the previous Bill. Is it worth while for the small balance you will get to cancel this right which they have earned by long years of service and which was sanctioned so recently?
I wish to mention the case of a soldier in the Royal Army Medical Corps. He bought his discharge from the Army Reserve at the cost of £25 in September, 1913, and he has received Reserve pay at 6d. a day. I wish to draw attention to the gross injustice that will be inflicted upon this man if the Government, after having entered into an arrangement with him, break their contract. In the case of men who have bought their discharge and paid for it and made a definite contract with the Government, I should be much obliged if the right hon. Gentleman will tell me whether such cases have been considered, or whether these men, in spite of the arrangement they have entered into, will be compelled to rejoin the Army.
It has been said that these men will have the right to appeal to the tribunals. Unfortunately, they have had some months' experience of the tribunals and their methods of working, and they have very little faith that their cases are going to be fairly considered. It does appear to me in regard to this matter that the Government, or the Army Council, do not know their own mind for three or four weeks consecutively, and the policy which obtains one month is entirely withdrawn the next month, and what a week ago seems unimportant becomes a military necessity a few weeks afterwards. That seems to be the general line upon which matters move. There is no doubt at all that there is a real hardship here, and I think it would have been well if the President of the Local Government Board had tried to meet the matter more than he has done. These men have been allowed to leave the Army. They served in the Army as volunteers and free soldiers, and now they are going to be called up as conscripts. Surely that is a hardship. Various letters on this subject have been read, and I do not think there is any hon. Member present who could not read such letters, but the answer of the President of the Local Government Board in each case would be that it is very easy to bring up isolated instances. May I point out that these are not such instances, but they are cases of hardship which are going to arise. When these men left the Army they felt that they had finished their service, and many of them have undertaken business commitments of one sort or another. Some of them have gone in for small shops, and their business prospects are going to be ruined, and it cannot be said in any shape or form that these men have not done their duty.
What is going to be the position with regard to compensation? What is the Government scheme by which these men are going to be recompensed for the new duty they are going to undertake. Of that we get hardly any inkling at all. I would also like to know how many men are involved in this matter? That question has been asked several times. I believe the number, from the standpoint of the Government and from the point of view of military necessity, is small. We ought to have some understanding as to that, and, in view of the real hardship involved, this point ought to be met, and if it is not met I hope the Amendment will be pressed to a Division.
I think this is one of the most contemptible proposals contained in this Bill. The plan contained in the proposal we are now dealing with puts these men in a more humiliating position than any other class of men affected by the Bill. Here we have men who have been discharged from the Army. In many cases since August last these men voluntarily offered their service, and it was the deliberate policy of the Army Council to refuse that service because an extension of their service would increase the State's liability in regard to pensions Three months ago we passed an Act of Parliament, and in the Schedule of that Act we gave these men a statutory charter of freedom from service, and now within three months that is to be withdrawn. This Bill has been recommended by the Minister of Munitions to his fellow-countrymen in the name of liberty, equality, and fraternity. These words have often been dragged in the mire, but never have they been more sadly disgraced than in this case.
I wish to ask a quesion affecting the position of men invalidated out of the Army. There were a very large number of men discharged and invalidated out of the Army after the conclusion of the South African War, and I have not been able to find in the Bill any reference to their case, and I would like to know if they are provided for in this particular Clause. That class of men desire to know whether they are considered here as being included, and whether they will have to undergo a further medical examination.
I am sure the President of the Local Government Board must feel that he ought to say something more, and I will tell him why. I made a very short speech, and the right hon. Gentleman has replied to all the long speeches, but he has not replied to mine. I will put my point shorter still. I know a man who has gained the Victoria Cross, who has been discharged from the Army, and under this Clause will become a conscript. Is my right hon. Friend in favour of making a man who has won the Victoria Cross with the British Army a conscript? I say that is not British. Will my right hon. Friend really get up and tell us the difference between those men who have absolutely left the Army and the men we dealt with a month ago who might be called upon to continue their service? Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us the number of these men? If the number is insignificant they would not have bothered to legislate for them, and if it is a significant number, let us know what it is. Is it 500, 1,000, or 5,000? Surely, if the Government stand in this position for those soldiers, they must be at their absolute wit's end for men when they have to bring those men and label them as conscripts. I invite my right hon. Friend to deal with that point as shortly as I have dealt with it.
I am considerably exercised in my mind about this Sub-section, and before we go to a division I should like to hear the right hon. Gentleman deal with this point. I am concerned about a man who has left the Army and has rejoined civil life. He may have made commitments, and I want to provide that he shall not be sent abroad again, at all events, if he is near the margin of forty-one. I think, as we have passed Clause I, we should maintain the limit of forty-one here, but there are many men between thirty-five and forty who, after serving their country, have come home and settled down. I think something is due for them, and I should like to make some provision so that a man of thirty-five shall have an option of serving at home, training, I should say, new recruits coming into the Army.
May I raise a question which I put to the right hon. Gentleman on the last Clause, but which the Chairman ruled out of order. A number of my Constituents were working in mines prior to the War. They were called to the Colours, but they have come back, and are now again following the reserved occupation of miners. I take it that under the Regulations they will come before the tribunal the same as all other miners. My Constituents want to know whether the military representative will make any difference between these men and the ordinary married man working in a mine, because their principal and usual occupation prior to the War was that of coal miners. May I say, referring to the statement made by the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden), and the hon. Member for the Attercliffe Division (Mr. Anderson), that I cannot for the life of me see why the charge should be made of any breach of pledge. I do not understand it. The Government have now, at this late hour of the War, made up their minds—they ought to have done it nine months ago—that it is necessary to have Conscription, and that all persons, married or single, under forty-one, must be brought under the provisions of this Act. Is it to be said, because a man joined the Volunteers or the Territorial Force or any other Force, and because his occupation happens to be that of a soldier, that he is to be outside the provisions of this Act, though every other citizen is liable? Why should you give a special exemption to soldiers which you are not giving to any other member of the community? It is not really true that there has been any breach of a pledge.
The hon. Member for Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) asked me about the case of a soldier who has won the Victoria Cross and served with distinction and who now becomes a conscript. He asks me whether we are going to treat this gallant fellow in this way. I do not want to indulge in anything like heroics, but it really does seem to me that it is not necessary to talk about "conscripts" in this tone of contempt, as if it were an insult. After all, my hon. Friends must remember this. They are constantly talking in well-deserved terms of eulogy of our Allies, the French. Everyone of those gallant soldiers, how gallant they are many of us hardly realise to-day, is a compelled soldier, called "conscript" for some reason. I do not think it is a good name. After all, it must be remembered what hon. Members who now talk about "conscripts" in such a term of contempt were saying when we were discussing the other Bill. Some hon. Members contended that there were a large number in the country who were shirkers. That was not my view, and I stated so, but it was the view of many that there were a large number of shirkers, evading their duty to their country. What was the answer, and I believe the correct answer, from those who took the opposite view? It was that the great mass of these men who were not joining the Colours were not shirkers seeking to evade their duty to their country, but were men who for one reason or another found it more difficult to join. Their claims at home may have been so strong that they thought they should not be broken. What was said by many men with conflicting views as to Conscription? It was said that it was upon these men that the burdens from volunteering would be the greatest. The man who has family claims says, "It is very much harder for me to break these ties and to come to a decision myself. Let the State decide for me, and then I will do what the State tells me." I do not think it is quite reasonable or correct to talk of these men as if they were suddenly placed in a position of indignity and contempt as compared with the voluntary soldier. Whatever line we may take here in this House, when he gets at the front and in the trenches the conscript, as he is called, will be heartily welcomed by his comrades and none of these undesirable distinctions will be drawn either by officers or men in the Army. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Islington (Mr. Lough) asked me a question about the man who has purchased his discharge. It really depends upon the interpretation of the language in the Act. I do not know whether that covers the case of a man who buys his discharge, but there is no fraud in the matter, because the man who purchased his discharge purchased a freedom from military obligations which he has enjoyed from the time of his purchase up to the present. Now the nation makes a fresh demand. One hon. Member said that the Army Council, the War Office, and the Government changed their minds every six months.
Every week.
Every week, if you like. So long as it is in the direction of strengthening the Empire's position and our Forces at the front, I do not in the least mind the charge of changing my mind.
Will the pecuniary loss be made good?
This is the first time the question has been raised.
The Under-Secretary of State for War has already said that a man who rejoins the Army and who has purchased his discharge gets a corresponding sum back. That is the rule now.
He gets a proportion of his discharge money back.
His pecuniary loss will be made good?
A proportion of it will be made good. I think, for the purposes of the Act, he, like other men, will have obtained his discharge, although he has purchased it. I was asked about the men who were discharged on account of ill-health after the South African War. I take it that they come within the Section of the First Schedule "discharged in consequence of disablement or ill-health," unless, of course, they offer themselves or are now able to pass the Army medical examination they will be outside. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Blackfriars Division (Mr. Barnes) asked me about men who have reached the age of thirty-five and who have rendered good service. There is one thing about which the Army Council are very emphatic indeed, and that is that it is most undesirable to increase the number of men in the Army who are entitled to be employed for different services. The difficulties are already very great between the men who are for Home Service and the men who are for General Service, and it is most undesirable to increase the number, but in certain cases the Army Council are most anxious to exercise their discretion and to see justice done, and I am sure that such a case would have their most friendly consideration, though, of course, I cannot
pledge myself that they will be able to give effect to the wishes which the right hon. Gentleman has expressed and which are very natural. With regard to the colliers, so far as this Act goes their position remains the same, and will remain the same so long as they remain in a reserved occupation and so long as that occupation is a reserved occupation. No change is made by this Bill. It is obviously impossible for me to give the numbers. I am told that there are about 5,000 time-expired men leaving every month, but I do not know how they are divided, or how many there are in the country who have already served and taken their discharge. It is quite impossible to say. I do not think there is any data available at the present moment. I doubt if the National Register would give it out—I am sure it would not—and I do not think you could possibly get it without prolonged examination.
Question put, "That the words 'Paragraph five of the first Schedule to the principal Act shall cease to have effect' stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 159; Noes, 39.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the words "so far as it relates to men who have been discharged from the naval or military service of the Crown on the termination of their period of service."
8.0 P.M.
The object of my Amendment is to fill in a very small but not altogether unimportant gap which I believe has been left by inadvertence in the present Bill. To understand the purport of the Amendment it is necessary to go back to paragraph (5) of the first Schedule of the principal Act. That paragraph excepted altogether from military obligations men who have been discharged from the naval or military Services of the Crown, whether on the ground of ill-health or at the termination of their period of service. The present Bill removes that exception with regard to men whose period of service has previously terminated, and the object of my Amendment is also to remove the exception with regard to men who may at some time in the past have been discharged from the Service on the ground of ill-health or disablement. When this paragraph of the first Schedule was under consideration, in January, I ventured to point out that this exception would exempt from liability to service, not only men who had been recently discharged from the Service on the ground of ill-health, and were still unfit, but men who might have been invalided from South Africa years ago, or even men who might have entered the Territorial Force for six weeks, have contracted a bad cold during that time, and, by arrangement with the colonel, in the easy-going days before the War, have been released from Territorial service on the ground of ill-health, although they might be perfectly fit, and have done nothing more for their country than that six weeks' service.
When I raised this point I was met with an answer which at the time appealed to the Committee at large, namely, that the Bill was in pursuance of a pledge given by the Prime Minister to coerce into the Service the slackers who had never offered themselves before. But men who have been in the Territorials some years ago obviously could not be deemed to be slackers. Not on the merits of the case, but because of the pledge which the Government had given, these exceptions were then maintained. But the pledge has now gone. It certainly no longer holds good as regards men who have completed their service. What I wish to suggest is that it ought not to hold good as regards men who at some time or other were discharged from the Service on the ground of ill-health unless those men are at this time unfit for service. This Bill is already going to provide that men who offered themselves for service since 15th August last, and were rejected on the ground of ill-health may be re-examined. I suggest you should not leave a gap by which men who left the Territorial Force on the ground of ill-health after six weeks' service, five or six years ago, should now be able to say, "I am entirely exempted, I have no liability to serve." I know of such cases. I was asked advice by a parent about his son some little time ago. It was perfectly obvious that there were no valid grounds why the son should not serve, but I had to tell the parent that as his boy left the Territorials on the ground of ill-health after a short period of service, the parent was entitled to send in the record of that discharge to the military authorities and that there was no necessity for him to appear before the tribunal. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will accept this small Amendment. It can inflict hardship on nobody. It will prevent a small number, possibly not more than 3,000 in all—still a small section of the people—being free to disregard claims which fall with such weight and involve such heavy sacrifices upon the rest of their fellow countrymen.
We are dealing in a later Amendment, which will come on almost immediately, with the question of medical rejections. This Amendment only refers to the men who have been discharged from the Army or the Navy as medically unfit. I am advised by the military advisers of the Government that this proposal would lay upon them a very heavy burden. It would be a very difficult task which they do not at all desire to have placed upon their shoulders. It would mean practically re-examining every man discharged from the Navy or the Army on the ground of ill-health, and their belief is that the number of men who would be available for service as a result of such a general resurvey would be so very small as to make it not worth the great labour involved. I, of course, have no special knowledge on this matter. I do not know whether my hon. and gallant Friend was justified in describing the number as he did. I do not know whether it may be larger or smaller. All I know is that we discussed this Amendment fully with the Army Council, and their instructions to me were—and I have made further inquiries since to confirm it—that it is their desire the Committee should reject the Amendment on the ground that, although it might possibly produce a small number of additional men for the Army, the number would be out of all proportion to the labour involved—labour of a somewhat unpleasant character. Under these circumstances, I hope my hon. Friend will not press the Amendment.
I think my right hon. Friend is under a misapprehension. It would not be in the least necessary for the War Office to have all the discharged men re-examined. All my Amendment would effect would be that where a man is called upon in the ordinary course to appear before a tribunal, he shall not be able to say, "No, I was discharged on the ground of ill-health from the Territorial Force, and that frees me." I want that this objection should not be allowed to hold good. It would not be in the least obligatory under this Amendment for the War Office to re-examine any man.
The hon. Member always seeks to produce the maximum amount of inconvenience for the minimum of efficiency. I well remember the innocent Amendment now before the Committee being proposed on the previous Bill.
It being a Quarter past Eight of the clock, and leave having been given to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 10, further Proceeding was postponed, without Question put.
The House resumed, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
not being in his place, the Proceeding in Committee on the Military Service Bill was continued.
I well remember that the hon. and gallant Member on that occasion endeavoured to show that the Amendment then proposed was well within the meaning of the pledge. He was at pains to point out on that occasion that these people were slackers, and he went on to say that they were shirking their obligations. Then the right hon. Gentleman drew his attention to the fact that they had already served a period, and the Amendment was withdrawn, yet we now see it brought up in another form. We had an unfortunate illustration from the hon. and gallant Member. He gave us a typical case of what he wants to deal with by compulsion, and said that the parents of a young man consulted him with regard to a son who got out of military service some time ago through having a slight cold. What does he admit by that? The clear advice he ought to have given was not, "Unfortunately the Bill will not affect you, and therefore you are exempt," but it should have been, "Never mind this Bill; go and offer your services now, and they will test you." If that is a typical case of what the hon. and gallant Member wishes to deal with in this Bill, there is a very easy way of dealing with it. It is not suggested that these men are prevented from offering their services. It would have been his duty, notwithstanding his anxiety for compulsion, to tell him to immediately enlist.
That was the advice I gave. I said that if he did not want to enlist, he was perfectly entitled to refuse to do so under the Bill.
You did not tell the Committee that. You said you stated that you regretted to inform him that he escaped.
Because I thought he ought to serve.
If that is a typical case, it does not require compulsion to deal with it.
It does.
If he did not want to enlist, he did not require any advice from you to tell him that he could escape. I am very glad to hear that the right hon. Gentleman refuses to accept the Amendment, because it is useless to pretend that this will not inconvenience people. If it is true that there are large numbers—I do not suppose there are very many—who have been so rejected, the least these men are entitled to say is that in the days gone by they have offered their services but unfortunately they were medically rejected, and therefore the State is not entitled to come along and say they are slackers. For these reasons I hope that the hon. and gallant Member will not try to rope in everybody when there is no military advantage in doing so.
I will not follow the argument between my hon. Friends on either side of the Committee or say whether my hon. and gallant Friend gave good advice to the parents of the boy who consulted him, because that is quite immaterial. I am sorry the President of the Local Government Board is hiding him- self—I do not use the term offensively—always behind the Army Council. He says, "I take my instructions from the Army Council. I do not exercise any independent judgment."
I certainly do claim to exercise my judgment whenever I speak. I have never said that I never exercised my own judgment. It must be apparent, in regard to these questions which come under the Army Council and which are decided by them—I am not a member of the Army Council and have nothing to do with the daily details of that Department—that I must consult them. Where else shall I go for instruction if it is not to the Army Council? I never stated that I had not exercised my own discretion. I exercised my discretion in counsel with the Army Council before I came down here.
I dare say it is all my fault, but the phrase, "take instructions from," is a very unfortunate one. Is not this an Amendment that really deserves consideration? I understand that the President said, "My advisers or instructors tell me there is too much work involved in this." Not a single figure is given to us of the numbers that would be affected by this Clause. May I remind the Committee that it is not merely the men who have been discharged but the men who have left who are affected. If it was merely a question of discharge I could understand that that would be a serious matter, but if the man himself has left that is quite a different matter. If a man left six, ten or fifteen years ago owing to a slight cold, can the hon. Member say that that man ought to be exempted for ever?
Is it to be assumed that the Army would let a man go simply because he had a slight cold? Are we to understand that that was the basis of inefficiency under the military régime?
I took the words "slight cold" from the hon. Member.
No, I took them from the hon. and gallant Member (Captain Amery).
Where does the word "left" occur?
In the principal Act.
It refers to men who have left or been discharged. The words "a slight cold" are not in the Act. I submit that the words leave too wide a door open for exceptions. If we are going to deal with this matter, as we know nothing about it, the least the Army Council could do is to investigate cases as they come up, to see if they come within the Bill. If there is a good reason for discharging them, then they will come within the exceptions. Although I do not press the matter, I think the right hon. Gentleman and the Army Council might be expected to take a reasonable view of this Amendment.
I should not have taken part in the discussion on this Amendment had it not been for the speech of the hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas). It is difficult to imagine a more unfair stricture being passed upon any Member of this House than that he has passed on my hon. and gallants Friend (Captain Amery). I really think he did not mean what he said. He said that my hon. and gallant Friend's express desire was to produce the maximum of inconvenience with the minimum of efficiency.
I said that was the effect of some of his proposals.
I entirely disagree with the hon. Member in saying that that is the effect of my hon. and gallant Friend's efforts in this House. I believe that if he had put the proposition in its converse order he would be much nearer the truth. There is no Member of the House who is more anxious to produce an efficient Army in the time of this great War and there are very few Members who know better what proposals are likely to produce that efficient Army than my hon. and gallant Friend. I do not know whether he intends to go to a Division on this Amendment, but if he does I shall go with him. I think it is a very reasonable Amendment. Does the hon. Member (Mr. Thomas) think there is any point in this slight cold? What does it matter whether it was a slight cold or a dangerous disease? If a man was discharged from the Army years ago on account of any disease or disablement, whether slight or severe, and if in the time that has intervened he has become fit and strong again and able to serve in the Army, what in the world has it to do with his obligation to the country whether or not he was ill some years ago? No doubt the hon. Member has come across men who were totally disabled or had some disease and made it a perfectly legitimate excuse in time of peace, and the Army authorities were not too strict. Why should they be? There are numbers of men—no one can say how many there may be—who have passed out of the Army for those reasons. The only reason given against bringing them back along with everyone else, according to my right hon. Friend, is that the Army authorities say it would give a great deal of work in re-examining them all. But if the Army authorities objected to the Amendment on this ground they would be apparently misunderstanding its effect, because it would not be necessary for any such wholesale re-examination to take place. It would only mean that that particular excuse would cease to be ipso facto a valid excuse when the man comes before the tribunal. The hon. Member talked about hardship and unfairness. We are all agreed that the whole Bill is hardship from beginning to end. The whole conditions of the War are hardship from beginning to end. The fact that we are at war is a hardship. Therefore, surely it is beside the mark to take advantage of these proposals for improving the Army to say there is hardship here or there. That is an argument which ought to be left behind now in the general agreement that we have unfortunately to impose hardship in the circumstances in which the country finds itself to-day. I hope very much that even now my right hon. Friend will see how reasonable the Amendment is, and that in spite of the misunderstanding which the Army authorities appear to have been under with regard to its purport, he will see that it is a reasonable proposal.
I am sure the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Captain Amery) must be greatly gratified by the very full and adequate certificate of character which he has received from the hon. Member (Mr. McNeill). It must be an encouragement to him that the hon. Member has thrown his ample shield over him and that so much of his person as emerges behind that shield is without a stain upon it. I am not going to enter into the argument which has been very ably put before the Committee by the two hon. Members opposite who have spoken, but I am somewhat surprised at the attitude of my right hon. Friend (Mr. Ellis Griffith), who now pours contempt upon the Army Council. Why should the President of the Local Government Board pay any attention to the Army Council? Why should he take any instructions from them? My recollection of his contribution to this controversy in the past is that the word of the Army Council was to be the last word. After all, the question of the introduction of this Bill was a question of policy, which was surely a matter above the decision of the Army Council; but upon the question of policy the right hon. Gentleman took the advice of the Army Council as the last word on the subject. Here when we are dealing with a question of pure administrative machinery, which is surely a question upon which the Army Council is alone entitled to speak, he says the right hon. Gentleman is very foolish to pay any attention to advice he receives regarding the administrative machinery of the War Office. I do not think such an argument coming from such a source is likely to have much weight.
I never used it.
I am in the recollection of the Committee. The inconsistency was so obvious to the meanest intelligence that it must have occurred to everyone present, and if my right hon. Friend was ignorant himself that he had used the argument and was guilty of the inconsistency, I cannot account for it. After all, we are in the midst of the dinner hour and not after the dinner hour, and aberrations of that kind are not easily explicable
I must ask the hon. Member to address himself to the Amendment before the Committee.
I am sorry you did not observe that part of my argument already related to the subject matter of the Amendment. As you did not observe it I will repeat what I then said. The only point at issue between the advocates of the Amendment and the Government is the question of administrative machinery. On that point the right hon. Gentleman strengthened himself behind the advice of the Army Council, and I think the Committee is justified in accepting the advice of the Army Council on this question as put by the right hon. Gentleman.
Although the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Captain Amery) spends so much time at the War Office— at least his mornings, in preparation for his afternoon speeches—I am prepared on this occasion to back the Army Council. To say they have not considered the point is surely beside the mark. They must have considered it before they could have advised the President of the Local Government Board, and they must have made an estimate as to the time it would take them to dispose of this matter as the result of their inquiry. The result of the inquiry obviously is that the number of men to be produced as a result of the work bestowed upon the examination of these men is not worth the consideration of the Army Council, and, these men being men of great ability whose time is valuable, I submit that we ought to take the advice of the President of the Local Government Board and not ask them to take under review all the cases which it is suggested should now be considered, in accordance with the Amendment moved from the benches opposite. The hon. Member (Mr. McNeill) said this was a time of hardship for everybody. That is not quite the fact. There is quite a number of people for whom this is not a time of hardship. It is for them a time of making hay. It is for them a time of sunshine, so to speak, and they make hay while the sun shines.
Who are they?
The armament firms and the shipowning class.
This matter is not relevant to the Amendment.
I will not pursue the matter further. I was rather led into it by the statement of the hon. Member. On this question I propose to give my whole-hearted support to the President of the Local Government Board, whose advice seems to me quite the best under the circumstances.
May I, to save time, say that I am prepared to withdraw the Amendment, whatever I may think about the War Office. I hope, however, that the right hon. Gentleman, with the Army Council, will give this point further consideration before it arises again on Report.
I will call the attention of the Army Council to it.
I hope the right hon. Gentleman will consider this question before the Report stage.
I have said so. I will report the matter to the Army Council.
It is entirely the fault of the Government. They come nine months or a year too late, and then they ask for time to get their Bill through. We have been urging them to do it for months, and we are now told they want further time to discuss the matter. I know, of my own knowledge, something about this question. I have several men in my own employment who have been discharged from the Army owing to various causes, a number of whom have rejoined the Army, although they were discharged from the Army as medically unfit. I know of men who were discharged from the Army years ago, who are medically fit to-day to serve in the Army. It is ludicrous to say that because a man some years ago was discharged from the Army, through some incapacity, that he should not be taken to-day. The Amendment of the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Captain Amery) only says that where the War Office want power to take these men who are medically fit and are able to go they should have power to take them. To say that it is going to throw great work on the War Office is perfectly ridiculous, because the total number involved can only be small. Speaking as a practical supporter of this measure, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will seriously consider this Amendment, because I think the Army Council must hare been under a misapprehension when they gave him the opinion they did.
I sincerely hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not listen to the suggestion just made by my hon. Friend. The effect of this proposed Amendment will be very much wider than has been indicated. It is not sufficient for the right hon. Member for Anglesey (Mr. E. Griffith) to refer to cases of slight illness which may have incapacitated men and led to their discharge some years ago. Obviously this Amendment brings in a great number of those who were discharged from the Army, for whatever degree of physical disability, and who must in the main represent a very large aggregate in the country. The actual effect of the Amendment in the country, if it were accepted by the Government, would be that every one, no matter the degree of his disability, would be liable for service if he failed to sustain an appeal to the tribunal. I take my stand on this matter, and I say that in the light of the experience of the tribunals in the last few months—especially on this question of physical fitness—I am not prepared to trust the men, who may have been discharged through genuine physical disability, to the discretion and tender mercy of the tribunals. Only in to-night's papers we see a responsible chairman of an Appeal Tribunal and the military representative of an important London Appeal Tribunal suggesting that their work would be diminished infinitely if only there could be some medical examination of the appellants before they appear before the tribunals. It is notable that under the existing system the military authorities are prepared to accept men who in the judgment of their own military representatives on these Appeal Tribunals, and in the opinion of the chairmen of these Appeal Tribunals, are obviously and patently unfit for military service, and should not therefore receive further consideration at the hands of any tribunal. It is because I profoundly distrust the discretionary powers of the tribunals, in the light of the experience of the last few months, that I certainly would strongly resist any attempt to reopen this question on the Report stage of the Bill.
If the hon. and gallant Member had gone forward with his Amendment I should have supported him. My reason for that course would be that the answer given by the President of the Local Government Board seems to me singularly unconvincing and because I happen to have had this afternoon a most convincing proof in favour of the Amendment of my hon. and gallant Friend. I had a visit a short time ago in the lobby from a man who was discharged as physically incapacitated a year ago. He represented to me that he wished to go back, that he was discharged against his will, and that he wished to go back, without waiting until this Bill was passed. He hoped, in any event, that this Amendment would be passed in order that the authorities might be compelled to take him back. That was his view of the matter, and on the strength of that I took him to a recruiting officer, who I hope will review his case as I should I do not believe that that man would be fit for all the work of an Infantry regiment, but he certainly would be fit for very useful service. In that way he would be able to take the place of another man who could be put into the fighting line. It is most desirable that these cases where men have, been discharged should be revised. As has been pointed out by the hon. Member for South Birmingham (Captain Amery) it is not true to say that the whole list of these men would have to be revised. It would be revised in the usual course when they came up.
I understand that the President of the Local Government Board has promised to consider this matter before the Report stage. If he did I think it will be saving the time of the Committee if some suggestions were made as to what will happen. I hope the Committee will realise that there is another class of man who is covered by this Clause in the First Schedule of the original Act, who, so far as I have been able to gather, has not been mentioned. Those are the men who were disabled and who on account of their disablement have had to leave the Navy and the Army. The Committee knows that a man in that position applies for a pension from the proper authority, and when he receives that pension it is reviewed from time to time. As the Committee also knows, men in that position have great difficulty in establishing their right to a pension, and every Member of this House has several cases of that kind every week sent to him from his constituency, which he is asked to take up with the proper authority. The hon. and gallant Member who moved this Amendment now wants to withdraw it. It is convenient to withdraw an Amendment when the whole sense of the Committee is against it—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"]—with the exception of the two hon. Members who interrupted. The Amendment was put on the Paper in the hope of getting it through at an attenuated period of the sitting, such as now. Those who are in favour of this proposal want to make themselves absolutely ridiculous. This Bill, among other things, is proposing to deal with the re-examination of the medically rejected. This particular Amendment deals with a proposal which would give the Army Council power to conscript men who are in receipt of a pension because of their disablement. The hon. and gallant Gentleman (Captain Amery) occupies part of the day at the War Office and the other part at the House of Commons. Is he really typical of the mind of the War Office when he comes down to this House and asks us to give the Army Council power to conscript soldiers and sailors who at the moment are in receipt of a pension from the country because they cannot work on account of their disablement?
The object of the Amendment is only to take those men who to-day are medically fit. If a man is receiving a pension because he met with disablement, he would be outside the scope of the Amendment. The hon. Member is playing with the matter.
But I would remind my hon. Friend that there is a new medical inspection, and that men with cork legs are being taken since that new inspection was instituted. So not only does my hon. Friend want power to take disabled men in receipt of pensions, but he wants to have cork legs, paralytics, epileptics, and all the rest of them. That is playing with this business. If you want a Conscription Bill, come down to the House and do it fairly. My hon. Friend knows that I am an anti-conscriptionist, but we recognise that we are beaten on the principle of this Bill, and we make no bones about it. But being beaten on the principle of the Bill, let the rest of the House try to carry out the thing fairly. Let us have a fair deal now. If you will give us a fair deal you will get your Bill without any trouble, and you will have our help in putting it into operation, but do not come with proposals of this kind whatever else you may do. I appeal to my right hon. Friend not to bother about the examination of this proposal. If he does consider this before the Report and bring up any such absurd, ridiculous, and unjust proposal, then we shall have to reconsider our position with regard to the other Clauses of the Bill, and put up a fight of a different kind altogether. We are putting up a constructive fight. Yesterday my hon. Friend spoke to an Amendment upon which we were told when the Amendment was introduced that they never proposed to divide, and two and a half or three hours were occupied. That is absolutely hopeless if you want business done.
I appeal to my hon. Friends all round to come to a decision on the matter. The hon. Gentleman opposite has offered to withdraw. My right hon. Friend also has promised to give consideration between now and the Report stage. The amount of consideration will be the amount which it deserves. My hon. Friend, I think, need not be apprehensive of any result that will come from it, though I do not want really to tell the hon. Gentleman that there will be no chance of accepting this proposal, but that is my own opinion. My hon. Friend says do not come down to the House with these proposals which he considers so bad. But we did not come down to the House with them.
I did not allege it against you; I knew you had more common sense.
This is a day on which we are giving certificates of character. I ask my hon. Friend to allow us now to decide the matter.
I beg to ask leave to withdraw.
Leave once having been giving to withdraw and refused, it is not possible to withdraw it afterwards.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to propose at the end of paragraph (1) to insert the words "and accordingly in that paragraph the words 'and subject to any provision which may hereafter be made by Parliament, men who have been discharged from the naval or military service of the Crown on the termination of their period of service' shall be repealed."
This is a purely drafting Amendment. Its object is to ensure that there should be a definite repeal stated in the Act of a provision which is no longer operative. My right hon. Friend will be well advised to accept this Amendment. It does not make any alteration in the law; it only makes it clear from the text that a certain provision is repealed. As this Act comes into force it will have to be interpreted in connection with the other Act to read as one, and as it will be interpreted constantly on tribunals by people who are not accustomed to law and by military representatives who are not legal men, and often when there are no legal men accessible, I hope that this proposal will be accepted.
It is probable that a schedule of repeals will be added to the Bill if there is sufficient number; if not, the actual repeal will be left to be done by statute law revision, which is not an uncommon method, as my right hon. Friend knows. I do not think that the Amendment is necessary.
I will not press it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to propose at the end of Sub-section (1) to insert the words "Provided that any man who by virtue of this Sub-section comes within the operation of Sub-section (1) of Section one of the principal Act, as amended by this Act, shall not, unless he was discharged from the military or naval service of the Crown as or in connection with a punish- ment, be placed in the Army in any grade lower than that which he held, or corresponding to that which he held, as the case may be, on his discharge from the military or naval service of the Crown, and shall not receive pay or emoluments less advantageous to him than those to which he was entitled at the time of his discharge."
This Amendment is very important, as hon. Members will see. It is really the same proposal as the following Amendment which stands in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Trinity College. I am in good company and company so unusual for me that I am a little suspicious of my own proposals, but on reconsideration I am convinced that this is a good proposal, and one which the Government ought to accept. They have told us that in principle and in general practice they do accept the idea of this Amendment, which is that a man, having done his bit and gone out of the Army, is brought back to serve by the operation of this Section, he should be brought back to the same grade or position as he was in when he left the Service.
I do not know whether my hon. Friend heard my answer to-day.
Yes, I did.
I have conceded the principle, and that being so, I propose to accept either the words of the right hon. and learned Gentleman or put in some other words that will serve the purpose.
There is one point in my Amendment which is not in the Amendment of the right hon. Member for Trinity College. The right hon. Member suggests that on re-enlistment a man should be restored to the same naval or military rank as before the termination of his period of service. My Amendment is rather different. It is that when a man who has been in the Army or Navy comes back to serve he shall have a corresponding or the same position. That is, if a man had been in the Army and goes into the Navy, or vice versâ, he ought to have a corresponding position. If he has been an officer in the Navy he ought not to be conscripted as a private in the Army, and so on. My point is therefore that the corresponding grade in the other service ought to be recognised when a man comes back. I trust that the point which I am raising will be considered.
I only want to ask my right hon. Friend, in regard to what he said to-day at Question time, and which he has repeated, whether it is perfectly clear, from what he states, that it applies to officers and non-commissioned officers? I was not quite clear on that point.
I do not think we are considering the case of officers at all; we are considering the case of non-commissioned officers. In reply to my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment, I would point out that this Bill takes no cognisance of the Naval Forces of the Crown at all. This is a military Bill, and therefore we could not accept the words in the Amendment, "Naval or." It would have to be clearly military.
I do not quite follow the last statement of the right hon. Gentleman, because, in point of fact, we have already had another Amendment dealing with Section 5 of the First Schedule of the principal Act, in connection with men who have been discharged from the naval or military services of the Crown. In reply to a question which I put, the President of the Board of Trade told me—and I thought it was rather a curious position—that in the event of a man who had been discharged after years of service in the Navy, if the Navy did not want him—I do not think it would apply to many cases—he would be liable for military service under this Bill, and, consequently, men in that position would be brought under this measure. I think the point raised by my hon. Friend is a good one, and I think it was also present in the mind of my right hon. Friend (Sir E. Carson) in drafting the Amendment which stands in his name upon the Paper. If, as we have been told, a man in the position of a corporal, or sergeant, or any other rank of that sort, who has been discharged from the Army, is to go back to the same rank, what happens to the warrant officer in the Navy if he is brought under this Bill? What rank could be given to him? It would be a very difficult question, and I do not press for a reply at this moment. I do not think there would be very many of these men, because I fancy that most of the men discharged from the Navy would be called up to the Naval Reserve. I do not suppose that many would go into the Army.
But there may be some, and if a warrant officer was obliged to go into the Army, beginning at the bottom, he would be in a worse position, or would he be entitled to a rank corresponding to that which he had in the Navy? I do not know how that would be met, but it would appear to be very unfair that a man of that sort should enter the Army as a private. No doubt the right hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary for War will consider that point, but I do not press it at the moment. I am in a difficulty as to whether I should support the Amendment now moved by my hon. Friend below the Gangway. I was prepared, in fact, in his absence, to move the Amendment standing in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Dublin University (Sir E. Carson). I hope that the Government will accept that Amendment. We have often heard that "the style is the man," and I think if we compare these two Amendments that old saying is borne out, because the Amendment moved by my hon. Friend below the Gangway provides us with a great deal of verbiage; on the other hand, the Amendment of my right hon. Friend is very terse and very much to the point; and if the right hon. Gentleman is going to accept the idea which is put forward in both of those Amendments, I hope he will do it in the form suggested by my right hon. Friend.
It will save time if I inform the Committee that I propose to accept the Amendment standing in the name of the right hon. Gentleman (Sir E. Carson), though in a slightly different form.
9.0 P.M.
I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment. Though my words are not accepted, yet the spirit of my Amendment is contained in that of the right hon. Member for Dublin University.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (1), to add the words, "Provided always that such men on re-enlistment shall be restored to the same naval or military rank as they held before the termination of their period of service."
I accept the Amendment, but these are not the words I wish to adopt, and I want to make some slight alteration. I would suggest, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to leave out the word "always," and after the word "such" to insert the words "discharged from the military service of the Crown," so that the Amendment would read, "Provided that such men discharged from the military service of the Crown on re-enlistment shall be restored to the same naval or military rank as they held before the termination of their period of service." This would leave out the words "naval or." With regard to the question raised by the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite of a man who has been in the Navy, and who has attained warrant rank, I agree that if he is brought into the Army a question of difficulty arises. I have no doubt myself that he would be given some rank, but one does not know what it would be. Probably he would very soon, if not at once, find some rank after he joined the force. I do not think it can be inserted in an Act of Parliament, but I will not absolutely close the door to it. I engaged to ask my military advisers what they think. I do not think there is much chance of inserting the words "naval or."
The President of the Local Government Board, dealing with this matter earlier in the day, pointed out that the Navy would have the first call on the men who had been in that Service. I quite see the difficulty. We are now dealing with a Military Bill, and I do not know that it would be possible in this Bill to make any provision with regard to the Navy. I think it is quite clear, however, that the right of a man who has left the Army to come back to that Service with the same rank as before should equally be given to a man serving in the Navy. If the Navy exercised the option of bringing back into the Navy a warrant officer, that warrant officer ought to have the same rank legislatively as a statutory right and not merely an assurance. It would be very unfair that a soldier should have an actual statutory right given to him and that a naval man should not have the same right. Whatever may be the correct method—I do not know whether it can be done in this Bill or not—I think it is a point which the right hon. Gentleman should certainly bear in mind and deal with, because in the Amendment which he suggests he has removed the words "naval or." If those words remained in the original Amendment they would perhaps be a clumsy method, but, at any rate, they would embody in the Act of Parliament the right which I think the House would want to give to the naval man.
I suggest that a question should be put down to the Admiralty in order to see what policy they would wish to adopt upon this difficult question. If necessary, a Clause might be drafted for the Report stage, putting the matter in the way which I think the hon. Gentleman desires, and which would suit the naval service.
My hon. and learned Friend (Mr. K. McNeill) described the Amendment of the hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King) as too verbose. I think the Amendment of my hon. and learned Friend is too laconic. My right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary has provided us with a tertium quid which I am afraid is not complete. It reads, "Provided a man who has been discharged from military service." A man may be discharged for misconduct. A subsequent Amendment of mine reads, "who has been discharged from military service on the termination of his period of service." Those latter words, I think, should be inserted, as otherwise, even though a man might be discharged for misconduct, he would have to be restored to the rank he held. I also ask in my Amendment that the time-expired man who is brought back should have the opportunity of joining the same corps or regiment as that in which he was in previous to his discharge. If, after his experience at the front, he feels himself better qualified for some other corps or regiment I think he should have the choice, provided he is qualified.
If he were qualified that would be one ground for doing it, and if they were in a position to take him into the corps that would be another, and if those two conditions were fulfilled I have no doubt it would be done.
I do not want that provision put in the Statute, as it might embarrass the military authority, but I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider it.
I think the reply of the right hon. Gentleman to the contention advanced is not completely satisfactory. The right hon. Gentleman suggested that men discharged from the Navy and not taken up by the Navy afterwards would be given equivalent rank perhaps after a time. That will not I think meet the sense of the House, which will, on Report stage, expect an explicit declaration on the part of the Government that there has been consultation between the Admiralty and the War Office, and that equivalent ranks in the Army have been determined on in the case of non-commissioned officers of the Navy. We ought to have an assurance that there will be that consultation and that those naval men will receive a rank not less honourable and not less well paid than that which they previously held in the Navy.
I will endeavour to do that, though I cannot give an absolute assurance. In reply to the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Denniss), I would be willing to meet his point by making the words read, "provided that such men if discharged from military service."
I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman to be rather cautious in giving the pledge asked for by the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gold-stone). I can imagine that a man who occupied the responsible position of bo'sun in the Navy might not be suitable for corresponding rank in the Army, and there may be other cases of the same kind. We all desire that such, men should be treated as fairly as possible, but the difficulty I have mentioned may arise.
I am rather surprised that it is not proposed to extend this provision to officers as well as to noncommissioned officers and men.
Officers never cease to be officers, unless they are discharged for some disgraceful conduct or for ill-health. Their term of engagement does not end.
I think I am right in saying that in the case of some officers who served in the South African War, their service came to an end when the war ended. They are not on Reserve or half-pay. I can give instances when men have retired and ceased to be officers. I desire on this Amendment to enter this caveat about the position of officers. I also think, on the question of drafting, that the Amendment in its original form carries out the intention of the Committee better than in its amended form, and that the words "naval or military rank" should be retained. I hope also that the question of officers will be Considered.
I am obliged to my right hon. Friend for undertaking to make this addition. As regards the drafting of the Amendment, since the word "men" has a technical signification in the Army, should it not be made perfectly clear that it does apply to non-commissioned officers? I have no doubt that it does, but why is it not stated in terms?
Men who have any rank at all must be non-commissioned officers; they cannot be anything else. I understand from my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board that there is no real objection to putting in the words "officers or men." That, I think, will meet the case put by my hon. and learned Friend. The words will then read: Provided that such men, if discharged from the military service of the Crown, on re-enlistment shall be restored to the same military rank as they held before the termination of their period of service. The words will be altered on Report, if necessary, to carry out the object in view.
I will ask the hon. Member to withdraw his Amendment in order to avoid the putting of four subsequent questions to the Committee.
I agree.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (1), to add the words "Provided that such men, if discharged from the military service of the Crown, on re-enlistment shall be restored to the same military rank as they held before the termination of their period of service."
Does this apply only to married men, or does it apply to men who were brought in under the first Military Service Act? I understand that it has been held by a legal authority that officers do not come within the exceptions from the Military Service Act, as only the word "men" is there used.
I believe that that question has never, in fact, arisen, but when this Amendment is reconsidered it will be made clear that it includes officers.
May I suggest that the meaning of the amended Clause would be much clearer if you altered the position of the word "shall," so that it should read "shall on re-enlistment"?
We can consider that on Report.
I hope the right hon. Gentleman will allow the Amendment to stand in the form "naval or military rank." I understand from my hon. and learned Friend, who knows more about drafting than I do, that there is no reason why these words should not stand. As the Amendment will require to be redrafted and there is considerable substance in the point, I hope my right hon. Friend will allow the words to stand.
I have been absent for a short time, but I believe the understanding which has been arrived at is that these men who have left the Service are to come back, whether they have belonged to the naval or to the military service, either in the same rank in the Army that they held before they were discharged or in the equivalent rank if they had served in the Navy, but now, not being claimed by the Navy, are taken by the Army. It is also suggested that the arrangement shall apply to officers as well as to non-commissioned officers and men. With regard to that, I will only say that there are men who have been officers and are not now regarded by the Army Council as men who ought to be recommissioned. I do not want to do anything without making the position perfectly clear. If you put in this obligation it must be done with the full knowledge that you may be submitting such a man to an alteration in his position which may make it worse for him than it would otherwise be. The Army Council have power to secure the discharge from the Army of an officer who, without having been guilty of misconduct, has proved himself to be an inefficient leader of men. Nobody desires at any time that we should have in the commissioned ranks men inefficient in action; above all, in war time, it would be a crime to keep men with a commission who were not fit to lead troops in a moment of difficulty. In this War, more perhaps than ever before, we have found that the most junior officer may at any moment become the leader of a large body of men and have upon his shoulders very serious responsibilities. It would be a crime against the men of the British Army to expose them to the risk of being led by an officer who had been proved to be incompetent for his work before he left the Army.
I had particularly in mind men who had served in the South African War and had since gone into civil life.
Whether they had served in the South African War or in this War or in no war at all, there are men who have held commissioned rank and—they are not necessarily to be blamed—proved themselves incapable of leading men.
Then you do not want to take them as privates?
Why not? Such men may make excellent non-commissioned officers or excellent private soldiers. My right hon. Friend suggests that if we do not want them as officers we ought to let them go back home. We want to get every man we can. Above all, we want to get those who have had experience in the Army. We as a Government think that every man should take the place most suited to him, though it may not be the place that he himself thinks he ought to have, so that he may do his full share of duty. I do not believe that in the bulk of men in this country there is any opposition to the proposition which I am laying down. But, as I have said, I am prepared on behalf of the Government to accept the inclusion of officers, subject, however, to this clear understanding, that the Army Council reserve to themselves the right that they now possess—and of which I am sure the House would not wish to deprive them— to deal with an officer as they deal with him now and of not reinstating him if he is not found fit.
I have not intervened in this Debate either yesterday or to-day, and I should not have now intervened had it not been for what the right hon. Gentleman opposite has just said. I cannot myself believe that there are a number of officers running to, it is suggested, three or four hundred, which must be the outside, though I think the number is nearer thirty, forty, or fifty, coming under the head suggested. I would venture to suggest to my right hon. Friend that to take the man who, some years ago, served as an officer and who has not in any kind of way forfeited his position as an officer, who has not been dismissed from the Army, but who has merely retired, and say to that man, "You"—probably a man of thirty-five or thirty-six—" are to come back into the Army, not as an officer, though it may be you retired as a captain, but as a private, because we do not think you are fit to be an officer and to lead men," is to inflict a great slur upon that man. I do not say that it may be an undeserved slur, but it is inflicting a slur upon that man, and I must say—
That is not the proposal. My right hon. Friend, I am quite sure quite unintentionally, entirely misrepresents me. I said exactly the contrary. What I said was that I was willing, on behalf of the Government, to accept the proposal that these men should come back as officers. My hon. and learned Friend understood me—
Oh, quite!
I only wish to make it quite clear that the right of the Army Council to dispense with the services of an officer was not in any way affected by the fact that he is given here a statutory right to come back to the rank which he had before he left the Army.
If I made a mistake, I am only too glad. I understood my right hon. Friend to inquire why should not these men go back as privates. I have achieved my object; that is all I desire.
I am quite satisfied with the undertaking that the right hon. Gentleman has now given to the House. I was only asking for information. Are naval men to be included with the military men? In the words read from the Chair they are omitted. I therefore want it to be put on record, even at this stage, that naval, as well as military, are included. If the right hon. Gentleman agrees to these words being put from the Chair now I shall be satisfied.
I accept that.
There was nothing further from my mind at the start of the Debate than leaving out these men. I put my question in order to ask whether the right hon. Gentleman opposite had retained the words "naval or". I raised no question whatever about officers. I had not the slightest intention of luring my right hon. Friend into making any promise. I asked him one simple question, whether he would retain the words "naval or" in order that we may keep in the naval non-commissioned officer, who is as much entitled as a military one to consideration.
Will the right hon. Gentleman put the Amendment in the form of officers, non-commissioned officers, petty officers, and men
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Words, "Provided that such men, if discharged from, the naval or military services of the Crown on re-enlistment shall be restored to the same naval or military rank as they held before the termination of their period of service.'' there inserted.
I beg to move, at end of the Sub-section, to add the words "and men who are called up under this Subsection shall have an option of serving for Home defence instead of service abroad, if over thirty-five years of age."
I did not vote on the question of this Sub-section on being put from the Chair because, to tell the truth, I could not find it in my heart to vote for the man who has served abroad, or who may have served at home—many of them have served abroad—after resuming civil life, being taken away again for service abroad. That was quite in accordance with the speech I made on the Second Reading, when I accepted quite frankly the calling up of the young men under the circumstances under which they were going to be called up. But I put it that it was a very hard case that the time-expired man who may have served abroad— and as a matter of practice it would bring in the man who had served right from the time of the Boer War and has come home, got married and settled down—should be called up to go abroad again. This Sub-section includes all men who have gone from the Territorials, the Army, or the Navy. It includes, therefore, a large number of men ranging from possibly the age of somewhere in the twenties up to forty-one. I do not see that there is a great deal of hardship in sending a man abroad again who is, we will say, twenty-five or twenty-six, or a man even over thirty who may be single. He is in the height of his strength. Therefore there is no greater hardship in sending him abroad than there would be in sending another man who has not been abroad. But after a man has served his time and come home, and has perhaps got a little business, or has got established in a factory, a workshop, or an office, it is a hard thing that he should be called upon, having served his country once, to undergo the great hardship and privation of being taken away again. I think that you may very reasonably place the age at thirty-five. That is about the time that a man who has been abroad once has settled down. That is when the great bulk get married. It is reasonable that men of thirty-five to forty-one should be treated differently from those under thirty-five.
I feel that it is necessary I should put this forward, because I considered the Bill in all its aspects before I spoke last week. I had told certain people what I felt in regard to these time-expired men. I told many who spoke strongly on the matter that I agreed with them, and though the right hon. Gentleman said a short time ago that the Army Council felt very strongly that it was undesirable to split up the men coming in between those to go abroad and those not to go abroad, yet I think he might just consider the other side, and, at any rate, no harm would be done by having a fuller expression of opinion on this point. I only ask that the men should be given an option. Probably many of them would prefer to go abroad, but if there are any of these men between the ages of thirty-five and forty-one, men who have got fixed down, and do not want to go abroad, I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that many of them might be quite usefully employed in training the large numbers of men whom you are now taking into the Army compulsorily. Therefore, I should like the right hon. Gentleman to give a fuller explanation and more consideration to the matter.
I have sympathy with the object my right hon. Friend has at heart. It is a recognition of the services of men who have already done great work for the country, and have come back home and taken on other occupations, or started in business, and who will naturally feel the burden of this Bill when it becomes an Act more severely than many of their countrymen. May I point out to my right hon. Friend how extraordinarily difficult it would be for the Army Council to carry out a statutory provision of this kind? You have got to ascertain, first of all, the age of the man with what is called official information. You have got to ascertain his wishes and his circumstances, and all this has got to be done with men at a moment when the Army Council are very hard driven. I know that there is ground for criticism, not only of the Government but of those who serve the Government. Of course, it is a very easy task this criticism, but many of those who criticize, I am quite sure, do not realise the enormous difficulties of those who have to administer our Army at a moment like this, and I know from my own personal experience in discussing all these questions with the Adjutant-General how tremendous are the difficulties when he is called upon from time to time to send out reinforcements, or to make up divisions here, or to do any of the work which falls to his lot as Adjutant-General in the time of a great war. Now if you are going to-add to those difficulties that he is to give this option to every man who is over a certain age, and the man is to have the right to exercise his option as he pleases, in favour either of service abroad or at home, I do assure my right hon. Friend and the Committee that you are going to add enormously to the difficulties of those who are responsible for our Armies at this moment.
I have the Adjutant-General's assurance that he will deal with all these cases with the utmost consideration and with the largest measure of indulgence, and I would most earnestly ask the Committee to accept that assurance given by me on his behalf, and not to put into the Bill, as a statutory condition, a provision which might cause very great additional difficulty, which is great enough already, in making the best provision we can to keep the Army at the front at its full strength. I do not for a moment question the motives of my right hon. Friend. Everybody who knows him and knows the sacrifices he has made, and the policy which he has pursued in this House throughout all these Debates, will not question for a single instant the depth or sincerity of his patriotism or his willingness to bear sacrifices, but in all these cases there must be some risk of hardship, and all I can say is— and I say it with full knowledge of the intentions of the Army Council —that every effort they can make when they are calling on these extra men they will make, in order, if possible, to avoid undue sacrifices, and to give the men who are so reengaged any reasonable consideration they can.
I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (2).
My reason for moving the omission of this Sub-section, dealing with the medically rejected men, is not in any way to oppose the principles underlying it or to delay the Bill. My object is mainly to elicit from the Government more information than we have yet obtained as to the way in which this Sub-section is to be used. My name is one of four names which appear at the head of this Amendment, but I speak for myself alone. I do not suppose it is likely that I am in agreement with the three other hon. Members whose names follow mine. Therefore, I speak for myself only, and, speaking for myself, I would like to say, at the start, that I can see no reason whatever why men who have been rejected should not be re-examined. That examination and re-examination is going on, not only in the countries of our Allies, but it is going on in enemy countries, and it may possibly be that the issue of the War may depend, to some extent, upon our being able to get into military service some of the least unfit of these men who have been rejected. No doubt hardship will accrue to some men who are called up for re-examination and passed, but I do not believe it is possible to make war without incurring hardships, and I think our object at the present moment must be to take every step to avoid the greatest hardship of all, and that is the hardship of not being able to put an adequate number of men in the field. I do not know what other hon. Members are going to say, but I do not propose to insult these rejected volunteers by assuming that they are endeavouring to shelter themselves behind medical certificates. I do not believe that that is the case. I believe that the great majority of the men who have been medically rejected have proved, by volunteering, their patriotism and their willingness to serve. I believe that they were mostly honestly disappointed at being rejected, and that a very large number of them, at all events, will be quite willing, and very pleased, if on re-examination it is found that they are sufficiently fit to be able to serve in the Forces; but I do not think the real point before us is as to whether these medically rejected men are or are not willing to serve again if called upon.
The point, as it occurs to me, is that we have already in the Army a large number of men who are not as fit as they ought to be, and that from the point of view of military efficiency and national economy it may not be wise to add to that number of unfit men in the Army a further number of unfit men culled out of those who have been previously rejected. I believe that one of the strongest arguments in favour of this Bill is that by getting rid of the unworkable voluntary system and adopting the compulsory system we have for the first time a large reservoir of men from whom we can select, and I hope the Government will be able to give us an assurance that they intend to use to the full the powers of selection that this Bill confers, and that out of the large reservoir of men—[An HON. MEMBER: "We are discussing the medically unfit!"]—I am speaking about the medically unfit, and I will bow to the Chairman if he tells me I am out of order, but I will not bow to amateur chairmen who take upon themselves the Chairman's duty. Under this Bill there is not the necessity which formerly existed of bringing into the Army the medically unfit. We need no longer take the first man who offers himself, and we are able to dispense to a great extent for the time being with the medically unfit, because we have a large reservoir of fit men to draw upon. My point is that this Bill, having now conferred these powers on the Government, I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman to explain why and how it is that, in spite of these powers of selection, that are being conferred upon the military authorities, they have put in this Subsection, which seems to suggest that they are going to bring in a number of medically unfit men. It is more than likely that I have arrived at a wrong conclusion and that the Government have no such intention, but before parting with this Subsection we are entitled to ask the Government why, in these altered circumstances, they have put in this Sub-section, and how they intend to use the powers conferred upon them.
Perhaps it will be convenient if I make as briefly as I can a general statement in regard to the position and the view of the Government in connection with, the question of the medically rejected men. At the beginning of the War, the War Office had to largely increase the Army which had been recruited on a single standard. Since then it has become necessary, on account of the immense growth of our Army, to organise it on somewhat different lines, and whereas in peace time men who were quite unfit for ordinary military duty were found discharging non-military duties in the sense that they are not combatant duties. In war time that condition of things became impossible, and it was necessary before you called for more and more men from the civilian ranks to join the Army, that you should make the fullest possible use in the trenches of the fighting men. In order to do this it was necessary to enlist into the Army men who, although they might not be fit to go to the front trenches, could be able to discharge duties which had hitherto been performed by men who were competent to be fighting men. Therefore the Army Council desired to extend their power of recruitment and take a great many men who in the original circumstances would have been rejected.
Apart from that change we had the extraordinary conditions which obtained when the New Army was first raised. This proposal in the Bill to reopen the case of the medically rejected men is very strongly opposed by many of my hon. Friends who are entirely opposed to compulsion. Those who are fighting compulsion are also fighting this proposal to reopen the question of the medically rejected men, and if possible to enlist to-day men compulsorily who were medically rejected a short time ago. May I point out that that action is really inconsistent and absolutely illogical, because the difficulty in which we are in now, and I admit that it is a practical difficulty, is the inevitable consequence of the voluntary system. I am the last person in the world to decry the voluntary system, although, as the Committee knows, I have held strong views for many years on the question of national service and national training. At the same time, I yield to nobody in honouring the men who have been so willing to place their lives and services at the disposal of their country. The advocates of the voluntary system cannot really profess their claim without acknowledging at the same time that even a faith so sacred as that has some shortcomings. When you are suddenly called upon to increase your Army from a small number to a very large number under the voluntary system you have no machinery available which enables you to do that in any ordered form. The result is you call upon the country to rally to the Colours and give you recruits. You want to get those recruits according to a certain medical standard, but you have no machinery to assure this.
What is the result? Everybody who watched what was going on in recruiting knows what happened. To the eternal honour of our country and our countrymen men flocked to the Colours in hundreds and thousands. We all remember the wonderful scenes which took place in this country when recruiting was opened in the early days of this War, and it was necessary then that the men should be exempted who were medically unfit. You had not then the doctors or the machinery necessary for the purpose of doing this, and anybody who took part in recruiting meetings as I did must have been struck by the amount of work which was thrown upon the recruiting officer and all his subordinates, whether the doctor, clerks, or the junior officials. They had men coming before them in enormous numbers, and in some cases 200 or 300 in a day were passed through this ordeal. What was the result? In the first place, that a great many of these medical examinations were cursory and unsatisfactory. In the second place, a great many of these certificates issued were valueless. They contained neither the name of the doctor nor the name of the man himself, and they could not be afterwards identified in any way. Therefore a great many of these medical certificates are not worth the paper on which they are printed, because it is quite impossible to identify them and ascertain whether they were the result of a really critical examination, or whether they were issued by a man competent to make that examination.
Then we come to the third case. I do not think it is so numerous as those I have already referred to, but unfortunately there are cases, as is perfectly well known to Members of the Committee, where these certificates passed from hand to hand by improper methods. When we came to passing the Military Service Act, which imposed compulsory service upon the single man between the ages of eighteen and forty-one, we had to deal with this particular case. The Government were extremely reluctant then to include in the Bill men in regard to whom evidence was not forthcoming of the character to which I have referred, and who had freely offered themselves for attestation and had been rejected by the doctor. Now we are in a totally different position for the reasons which I have given, and which I will very briefly enumerate. We have, first of all, the fact that to-day we are able to enlist men to do work at home or even abroad that will release fighting men. Next, we have the unsatisfactory condition of the medical certificates originally granted to earlier numbers of recruits, and from this we have undoubtedly the result that there are a great many men in this country today whose medical certificates ought not to be a statutory exemption from the provisions of this Bill. It does not follow that the man will not get exemption, but it ought not to be a statutory exemption.
The question is what is the machinery by which you are to give effect to your new system? Nobody wants—it would be a crime—to expose all these unfortunate men who have serious physical troubles, and are therefore incapable of service, to the ordeals they went through before. The Army Council propose that there shall be three months during which nobody who claims to have a medical certificate which has declared him unfit for service should come under the powers of this Bill. During those three months the Army Council intend through their recruiting staff—which is now much stronger than it was, and let me say more efficient—not that I want to throw any discredit upon the old staff, but more efficient because it has been brought up to date and it has more experience—to establish communication with the medically rejected people in each recruiting area or sub-area. Under the Bill it is proposed that there should be an opportunity afforded to these medically rejected men to present their own cases, but there is an Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Wardle) which adopts our method but transposes the machinery, and the Government propose to accept that. [Leave out the word "unless," and insert instead thereof the word "if," and leave out the words "need not," and insert instead thereof the word "should."]
The effect of that, if the Committee will be good enough to look at the Bill, will be to transpose the machinery. We think it necessary for the reasons I have given to make these proposals deliberately to the House, but we believe in the machinery as we propose and as altered by the Amendment, that we provide means by which all of those who are legitimately exempt by virtue of medical certificates will not only escape service but will not be harassed in any way by our work of enlistment, whilst on the other hand those who hold wrong certificates or who ought to be re-examined will be available for service with the Colours. I hope I have made it clear that the Committee will be prepared to accept it, and that my hon. Friend who moved this Amendment will, on the whole, find our arrangement satisfactory.
10.0 P.M.
This is a very important Clause in the Bill, and though I recognise that the concluding words of the right hon. Gentleman do indicate a change in its form which is important and which I do not wish to minimise, I really do not think that the matter can be got rid of without facing rather more fairly and squarely what is the extent of the change which this Clause proposes. Let me point out to the Committee how very wide the Clause is, even after the change which my right hon. Friend has indicated he will be willing to make. It does not merely apply compulsion to a man who has been rejected under the Derby scheme. It applies compulsion to a man who when he offered himself for direct enlistment was rejected; it applies compulsion to a man even although he has offered himself many times for direct enlistment; it applies compulsion to a man who has accepted the invitation of the Government, an invitation to which my right hon. Friend has called attention more than once, and who has at his own expense been examined by a Medical Board and rejected. Whatever else may be said, these are serious changes. It would be a great pity if this question were treated as a matter of division between the people who are in favour of the principle of voluntaryism and the people who are in favour of the application of compulsion. That really is not a fair division at all. There are many Members in this House who know perfectly well from their own experience and correspondence, apart altogether from the question of principle, that this is a matter which needs and calls for the most careful consideration of the House of Commons. Let me point out two or three considerations which seem to me to arise. In the first place, it is not making an addition to or an extension of the powers which Parliament took in January last, but so far as this matter is concerned it is reversing the policy which was then declared. It would be quite wrong on the Committee stage of this Bill to raise a Second Reading discussion as to whether you should extend compulsion to married men. That was decided in principle on the Second Reading. This is not a question of adding additional classes; it is a question of reversing the declared policy which was announced to the public in January last. There are thousands of people in this country who came forward. The right hon. Gentleman has referred in language which we all accept and endorse, to our feelings as to their patriotism. Many came forward again and again. They came forward on the distinct assurance given by the Government and by the right hon. Gentleman himself, that, in coming forward, after their case had been judged, they would know what their position was. It is a very serious thing that three or four months later the Government should recommend to the Committee and to the House of Commons, not some addition to the powers which they took some months ago, but a complete reversal—I hardly use too strong language if I say a complete withdrawal of the assurances which were then given. That is my first point.
My second point is that it is not as though this question had not been carefully considered and argued. My right hon. Friend, as we know, argued the case with his usual straightforwardness and clearness, and he said that he resisted altogether, in the name of the Government, the idea that there should be compulsion applied to unmarried men who had been rejected. The right hon. Gentleman said those men had done their best. They had not been in any sense of the word shirkers. He carried the sense of the House and of the country with him. That is my second point.
My third point is that we ought to look at this matter from the point of view not only of the men, but also of the employers and others who are taking advantage of the services of these men. Let me take first the point of view of the men themselves. We have all of us, I anticipate, had letters since this Clause was announced by the Government in which men have said, "We did go forward; we were examined." It is all very fine to say that the examination was cursory, because in cases where it was perfunctory the result was not that people were improperly rejected, but that they were improperly accepted. It is nonsense to say that people were rejected right and left. It was the other way about. Many men write, "I went forward and offered myself. I was stripped and examined, and did my best to join." Others say they came forward again and again, and it was only after they had been definitely told that they were rejected, and that they were passed into the class of men whom the military authorities refused to take, that they committed themselves to new liabilities on the face of the representation of the right hon. Gentleman and of the Government and on the assurance of the medical authorities. Many of these men have incurred new obligations Some of them have got married. Some waited until it was certain that they could not be used by the military authorities before they incurred further obligations. Of course, everybody understands that compulsion involves hardship. It is not, however, a question of that. It is a question of keeping faith. You really do not keep faith with these people who three or four months ago were told that if they would do their best honestly and; carefully to join the Army and, if they failed, their positions would then be secure. You cannot now say to them, "I do not care what obligations you have entered into in the meantime, I am now going to compel you to join." That seems to be the real difficulty, and it is one which demands a rather more generous reply than was to be found in the statement of the right hon. Gentleman just now.
Now take the point of view of the-employer. There are many employers, public and private, who take this stand. They say, "We did not desire to employ in time of war able-bodied men of military age." I think they were quite entitled to take up that position. Many private persons say, "While I must have one man who is in a position of service as regards myself—it may be my gardener —whoever it may be, I will make sure he is not an able-bodied man of military age." In the same way many employers, in industry say, "We will spare every man we possibly can, but we must know first of all how many people there are we are able to retain, because they are rejected persons although of military age." That is the basis on which they have arranged their business, and in view of which new engagements have been entered into. Here, again, it is not a question of hardship. It is that the employer has made great sacrifices in order that he may do the best for the country. In many cases he has arranged for his partner to join the Colours, because he has an assurance that he can rely on the services of a man who has been rejected by the military authorities. You cannot turn round now and say, "I do not care what assurances were given three or four months ago, I must have the man."
Of course, if in return for this Clause you are going to get an overwhelming addition to the national strength, though there would still be the greatest difficulty in justifying your proposal in view of the assurances given, at any rate you would have something to show for your action. The arguments against compelling men who have already enlisted to prolong their period of service can be very well understood. We had them put forward in the Committee this afternoon. When you take compulsory powers there you are certain you are going to get a good article. In the same way there are arguments against compelling the ordinary civilian population, but here, again, you may be getting a good article. But in this case you are only going to secure people who have been rejected, and in many cases they have been rejected because it was quite plain that they could not be made use of.
I was glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman point out the change it was proposed to make in the Clause. I do not think he made as much of that change as he fairly might have done. It is a very important one, and I do not want to minimise it. As I understand it, the right hon. Gentleman says that instead of the Clause providing that men who had been rejected since August 14th last being men who are primâ facie compelled until the Army Council tells the individual he is not compelled, no man rejected since August 14th is in fact to be compelled unless the Army Council gives him notice that they require him to come forward. That is undoubtedly a very material alteration, but unfortunately it does not really reach by any manner of means the length and breadth of the people. It does not meet fairly the case of the man who offered himself for direct enlistment, where that man offered himself after 14th August last. To be told you are a person who is not to be compelled is not sufficient.
Only this afternoon the President of the Local Government Board explained the real principle of compulsion. He stated that compulsory service makes men do what they are unwilling to do. But these people who have offered themselves have shown that they are not unwilling, and whatever else happens, surely this Clause ought not to apply to them. In the case where a man got exemption by a swindle, I would be the first to suggest that he should not be exempted. But these are not by any means ordinary instances. The fact is large numbers of persons have been taken into the Army who are unfit, but I would repeat that perfunctory and inadequate medical examination has only had the result of putting more people at the disposal of the military authorities and not less than would have been the case had there been a more elaborate examination. On these grounds, I hope we may have this matter more fully discussed, and we may get a more satisfactory statement from the Front Bench. It is rather an odd circumstance that the rejection of this Sub-section should have been moved by the hon. Gentleman opposite, but, taking him at his word, that he really wants to reject it, some of us as at present advised will be pleased to join him in the Lobby.
I should have thought there was very great cause for the speech of the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir J. Simon) if the President of the Local Government Board had not announced his intention of making the change in this Sub-section which he described. I quite feel that the right hon. and learned Gentleman would have been justified in saying that it is rather hard on the men who have got certificates of exemption that you should say that they are all to come up again for examination unless they succeed in obtaining a notification of exemption from the Army Council. I cannot help thinking that my right hon. and learned Friend's speech was prepared rather in view of the subsection not as it will be when it is amended, but as it at the present moment stands in the Bill. In the closing passage of his speech that reflection seemed to occur to the right hon. and learned Gentleman himself. I do not think he did full justice to the extent of the change indicated by the President of the Local Government Board. It is notorious that there have been many cases—I think the Committee may take it from the President of the Local Government Board— in which persons who ought to have been passed have been rejected. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] At all events, there is reason to suppose that there may be such cases, and a great many of them. Why, in the name of common-sense, should we not have machinery in the Bill directing and requiring a second examination if there is reason to suppose that by some oversight, owing to the enormous press of business there was then, a number of men so exempted who ought to have been passed. As the Sub-section is to stand, it seems to me to meet the case exactly. It provides that if the Army Council thinks there is reason to believe that a man was improperly exempted they may say that he ought to be examined. All objections to the Sub-section are removed by what the President of the Local Government Board has said.
I rise to support— [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide, divide!"]—I rise for the first time in this Debate to-day — [An HON. MEMBER: "Cheer up!"]—I rise—[An HON. MEMBER: "Speak up!"]— to support the Amendment moved by the hon. Gentleman opposite, and I hope to meet him in the Lobby in support of the Amendment which he has moved. I listened with extreme care to the speech of the President of the Local Government Board, and I am bound to say that I thought it was a very inadequate justification for the Sub-section in the Bill that we are now considering. I should like to refer to the fact that during the delivery of that speech the, Under-Secretary of State for War was not present, nor is he present now, and apparently this Debate is to take place without our having the assistance of his presence in a matter which so closely affects his Department and the arrangements which have been made in the past in connection with this provision. I wish to protest against the absence of the Under-Secretary of State for War, and to suggest to the representatives of the Government who are present that it would be courtesy to us here—[An HON. MEMBER: "Get on!"]—in dealing with this branch of the matter that we should have the assistance of his presence. The right hon. Gentleman placed the responsibility for the confusion that had taken place upon the voluntary system. I do not think he was justified in blaming the voluntary system.
No, I did not.
I am not going to misrepresent the right hon. Gentleman. His words were that it was the inevitable consequence of our system of voluntary enlistment that we had got into the difficulties which we had got into, and he instanced the great rush of volunteers in the earlier months of the War and the fact that adequate arrangements could not be made for classifying these volunteers. It is one of the criticisms we have made all along, that the War Office did not make simple elementary arrangements for deal- ing with the applicants for service with the Colours and the most ordinary common-sense methods, such as recording the names and addresses of applicants whom they could not deal with at the time, were not taken. It is not fair of the right hon. Gentleman to suggest that it is the inevitable result of having a voluntary system of enlistment that we have been landed in the difficulty that we are in on this question. I want to ask the Committee to consider the case of the individual who will be affected by this Amendment. What happened after the passing of the principal Act, in which the men who had been medically rejected were exempted from the operation of the Bill? It is hardly necessary to remind the Committee of the Debates which took place respecting the administration of that portion of the Act and the attempt by the War Office to place within the provisions of the principal Act men who were declared by the Section which it is sought to repeal to be outside the Act. Many men were claimed by the War Office. They had responded under protest, and had been merged into the Army. These cases, which were very numerous indeed, were ultimately inquired into in a very frank spirit by the Under-Secretary for War, and as a result—and it is because of these very relevant points that I lament his absence to-night—a great number of men who had been improperly brought within the provisions of this Act by the interpretation wrongly given to it by the War Office, were released. They have once more readjusted their private lives, entered into fresh responsibilities, and what is the position with regard to this very considerable number of persons? Having offered themselves for enlistment before 15th August, 1915, and having been rejected on medical grounds, and after Parliament had passed a Clause permanently excluding them from the provisions, of the principal Act, they were wrongly summoned to the Army and underwent great trouble and distress and annoyance. Then, as a result of inquiries by the Lender-Secretary for War, they were discharged and told they were exempt from the provisions of the Act. Now, a few weeks later, they are to be told again that all these things that have been done in the past are to happen again, and they are to be once more summoned to the Army. That is an intolerable state of affairs. It places a most unfair burden upon many individuals who should be relieved from it, and I feel that we require very much more information 'before we part from this subject.
The right hon. Gentleman has announced an alteration, but I cannot see that the alteration which he has announced amounts in practice to very much. I do not think it materially alters the original proposal of this Bill. I doubt very much whether it substantially alters the Bill at all. The Bill, as drafted, proposes that these men who have been rejected on medical grounds shall be subject to the Act, if it becomes an Act, unless they are advised that they need not present themselves. The alteration suggests that they shall be subject to the Act if the War Office notifies them that they should present themselves for re-examination. What will happen? All that will happen will be that the Army authorities will advise the whole of these medically rejected persons that they should offer themselves for re-examination. Therefore, with the best intention in the world, I cannot see that the alternative foreshadowed by the right hon. Gentleman has made any substantial difference in the proposals as they are in the Bill itself. I desire to compliment the right hon. Gentleman upon not having placed too great emphasis upon his concession. I hope before this Debate ends we shall hear the views of the War Office on this matter, and have some account of the magnitude of the problem involved. I think it is due to the Committee that we should know what kind of records have been kept in these cases. We know, for instance, that many men who have been properly rejected on medical grounds, and who are outside the provisions of the principal Act, have been given all kinds of certificates of rejection, and in some cases have been given no certificates at all. I think we ought to know whether the War Office themselves have not preserved records of these rejections. At least we ought to know to what extent the records have been kept and what are the numbers involved in so far as these records have been kept. I think we should be given this information as fully as possible in order that we may judge of the magnitude of the problem. I dissent entirely from the view that because medical examination had to be quickly performed that healthy men were rejected. What happens in a hasty medical examination is that men are only rejected who are obviously physically defective. Therefore I think that the case on that score falls to the ground. We know that an enormous number of men have been taken into the Army who are unfit for active service with an Army and have been put to a light character of work. I think it in the best interests of the nation that men who are physically defective are unable to bear the burden of active service, and are fit only for light clerical duties, should not be taken from their ordinary duties in life which they have been trained for, and which they are fit for, in order to do temporary work in the Army. I trust, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman will consent to give the Committee further information. I trust, too, that the Committee will not allow this protection—that was given to men who were medically rejected, and who were properly outside the provisions of the first Act—to be withdrawn on the evidence that has been adduced.
I desire to ask the President of the Local Government Board two questions—first, does he intend it to be publicly understood that if a man previously rejected now comes within the operation of the Act he should have full opportunity of coming before the Local Tribunal on appeal as under the original Act, and also whether, as he said just now, if each man is to be given three months' grace, he will be willing, instead of putting the 1st August, to put in the 14th August, the same date as last year.
Those of us who have practical experience know that on the one hand there is a number of men who have been improperly rejected, and ought to be brought into the Army, and that, on the other hand, there are persons who have been treated in the other way. Some people have been examined by their own doctors, who have taken too sympathetic a. view of them—I know cases—and there are other cases of persons who were examined only by Army doctors, and whose very natural predisposition is in favour of getting men into the Army if they can any way conscientiously do it. I am a supporter of this Clause as a whole. But I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he can more specifically define the arrangements which are now perfected and the safeguards which are now introduced. If you are going to re-examine men—and on the whole I think it is desirable that you should—it is surely of importance that they should be examined by a medical board, the majority of whose members are civilian doctors of local eminence unconnected with the Army, in order that this second decision may carry more weight than the original decision. I also want my right hon. Friend to tell us whether in the circumstances any appeal is possible, if the second decision is at variance with the first. Though knowledge leads one to be convinced that the object of this Clause is a proper object, and that there has been in some parts of the country, at any rate, extensive laxity, on the other hand many provisions have been made, many commitments have been made on the faith of bonâ fide medical decisions. Therefore I hope that my right hon. Friend does not think that I am wasting his time or that of the Committee in asking those questions.
Before the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Long) replies I should like to put one or two questions. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] I am a supporter of the Bill, and not an opponent, and therefore I put it from quite a different standpoint. There is a very strong feeling in the constituencies with regard to the re-examination of the medically rejected men. I am bound to say that I do not agree with the President of the Local Government Board in the reasons which he gave why these men were rejected. I served for about twelve or fourteen days inside a recruiting office during the rush in 1914, and I cannot understand how anyone can say that the men were not medically examined. It is a very serious reflection upon the medical men, to begin with. Every man who was medically examined had to answer a certain number of questions, which were contained in a medical register. Each man was registered and the register was marked that he was either medically "fit" or "unfit" against his name. This was done in each case. The block was not in the medical department, but in the clerical department of the recruiting office. The two medical men were turning the men out at the rate of 200 to 225 a day, but the clerical department, who had to make a copy of the registers, only turned out about 140 attestation papers in the twenty-four hours.
On a point of Order. Is the hon. Gentleman in order in referring to what took place in 1914, while we are dealing with what is connected with 1915?
I understood the hon. Gentleman rose to ask a question. The hon. Gentleman did not catch my eye, but when he said he wanted to ask a question the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board, who had risen, gave way.
I was putting my question in the form of explaining it.
Perhaps the hon. Member will put his questions without the preliminaries, and he will get a reply.
I will make my observations afterwards.
I rise to answer two or three questions, and to appeal to the Committee to make progress. Really, we must get on. I do not want to sit up here to all hours of the morning. We are to have a Debate on Ireland to-morrow, and we must really make progress. We are not making progress at all. There is no good in repeating statements about hardships. The Government have gone a very long way to meet the different criticisms. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton asked me whether these men who have been medically rejected will, on coming up again for service, have the right of appeal to the tribunals. Of course, they will have all the rights possessed by any compelled soldier, who, before he goes to the Colours, will be entitled to claim exemption on any of the grounds mentioned in the Act, before the tribunals. I have been asked to explain the machinery more fully. I really do not think it is necessary now. The Government will apply machinery which I frankly admit is immensely improved by the Amendment of my hon. Friend. It transposes the duty, and instead of leaving the obligation on the shoulders of the man it places it on the shoulders of the Army Council. Therefore it is only the people to whom the Army Council address a request who are affected; the rest will be free during the next three months, and those that are notified will have full opportunity of appealing to the tribunal. Is it unreasonable to ask the Committee now to decide?
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment. Leave withheld.
rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
I am most reluctant to use that machinery. I have done my best to find means for the discussion of the more important questions, and I hope the Committee will support me in my view that we should very shortly now come to a decision.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give us an estimate of the numbers affected by this Amendment, because to some of us it would be an important element in coming to a decision?
I am very reluctant not to respond to the appeal, Sir, that you have made, but I would like to remind you that this Amendment is of very great importance indeed, and affects most seriously probably many thousands of people in this country who, owing to their physical condition, are certainly entitled to the consideration of this House. I have noticed during the last half-hour impatience on the benches opposite from Members who have come into the House within the last hour. We have been sitting on these benches doing our work—[An HON. MEMBER: "So have we!"]—since the House assembled this afternoon, while other Members who are now so impatient apparently have been spending their time in much more genial spheres. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] We are not going to be suppressed by their impatience. We are going to have full and adequate discussion of this Bill. This is the most important Bill ever considered by this House. It means life or death to probably tens or hundreds of thousands of people, and we are going to insist upon our right, as the representatives of the constituencies of the country, to have these important proposals adequately discussed. I rise, therefore, not like the hon. Member for the Middle-ton Division (Sir R. Adkins) to say two words only, but like the hon. Member for Thanet, to give an historical survey of this question, and I am not going to soothe the impatience of hon. Members opposite by telling them that my survey will be of a brief character.
rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put," but the Chairman withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.
The hon. Baronet has given us a fine illustration of Prus-sianism! The President of the Local Government Board has made a certain alteration in the Clause, but I regret I cannot agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow, that it is a concession of any value at all. I fail to see that it makes any substantial difference whatever. It is simply a question of substituting Tweedledum for Tweedledee. Before the alteration was made, it rested with the Army Council to decide whether or not a man should be re-examined, and it is now precisely the same thing. It still remains with the Army Council to decide whether or not a man's certificate shall be considered valid. We know that for the purposes of the administration of this measure it is not the Army Council at all. The people who are going to do this are the recruiting officers and the recruiting clerks in the various stations, whose conduct of this business during the last twelve months has be scandalous and inhuman. As a result of their conduct scores of men are tonight in their graves who would have been alive if these people had displayed a little more humanity. There have been brought before this House scores of cases of men who have been passed by the medical officers, although known in the locality for years as being in such a weak state of health that they were unable to earn a living. Your colleague, who is chairman of the tribunal which sits at the House of Commons, has made the most scathing observations on the conduct of medical officers in passing men who are totally unfit. The reason why I urge this matter now is that we are going to give to the very men who have been responsible for those illegalities of this inhuman conduct, the power to continue the same course of action. Yesterday we had an interesting intervention on the Debate by the hon. Member for Ealing (Mr. Nield), who is chairman of the Middlesex Tribunal. On the 13th April he was sitting on the Middlesex Tribunal when this question of passing men totally unfit was raised: Mr. Herbert Nield said the War Office would be asked to have a fresh examination, and in a certain event he would have to call attention to the matter. This was a case where the appellant put in a medical certificate saying he was suffering from heart disease, hammer toe, and other infirmities, but he had been passed by the medical board. Sir Frederick Milner, in a letter to the "Times," recently called attention to a number of such cases. He said that a man who had had rheumatic fever once, quinsey twice, had consumption, and suffered on and off from catarrh had been passed for military service by the medical officer after five minutes' examination. He told of another man who had been a hopeless invalid all his life and only occasionally able to do a bit of work, and who has been passed for military service. The Westminster Tribunal refused to exempt an epileptic who had been five times rejected. And so on. An incident of a somewhat similar nature happened at Wandsworth Tribunal. Applicant appeared before that tribunal and said that he had been to Kingston Barracks, where he had been treated rather harshly. He had asked for a certificate of medical exemption in order to place it before the tribunal. He was told that they were not there to help the tribunals, and that he would not get an exemption certificate. After they had conferred together — and this is the power which under this Clause we are going to give to these recruiting authorities to exercise in the same way in the future—the doctors said: "Stick him down, he might as well die there as anywhere else." And Lorden said: "I am sympathetic with you, and I do not think that ought to have been said." Another member of the tribunal said: "There is no excuse for the military authorities making such a statement; I think very serious notice ought to be taken of it. At Wood Green at an inquest the coroner said: "It is a mystery to me how this man was passed for military service." The widow stated that her husband attested in January, and was passed by the doctors at Scotland Yard as fit for general service. Without having experienced any exertion he died suddenly. Dr. Parsons stated there was extensive tubercular disease in both lungs and deceased had evidently suffered from pulmonary phthisis for a long time. The examination of the attested man must have been a very superficial one.
This is by no means an isolated case. I have here a clergyman friend in the North of England. He tells me of a college chum, a man who had been very delicate all his life. When he was at the university he missed several terms through illness. My friend tells me that to his amazement he learnt a little while ago that this man had been passed for the Army. Within a month of having been" passed by the Army medical officer as fit for general service he was dead. Another case which is exciting the greatest local indignation is where a young man who for years had been known as a consumptive was passed by the doctor, and within three weeks was dead. That I call murder! We are asked, I repeat, under the proposal that we are now discussing, to continue that power to these bodies to send men to a premature grave. I have scores of letters of a similar character. I have a letter from a man who has been a clerk—
I have really allowed the hon. Member a great deal of latitude, but it is impossible within the limit to allow that kind of thing. It is clearly a breach of the rules of the House. I think, in view of the liberty that has been given, that the hon. Member should not attempt to abuse that liberty. It is my desire at all times to allow the freest discussion, but I am bound to check any abuse of the rights of hon. Members.
With all respect to you, Mr. Whitley, I refuse to accept your opinion that I have abused the privileges of this House.
The hon. Member need not read into what I said anything I did not say. I asked him not to multiply cases further, because I thought it would be going beyond the reasonable limits of Debate.
May I pass on to another point? I want to know what assurance there is under this Bill that this system is going to be superseded by a better system. Under the existing Act, a person may appeal to the tribunal on the ground of physical condition. The practice of the tribunal hitherto has been not to take the testimony of an independent medical man upon the physical condition of the applicant, but to refer the applicant to a Medical Board, and the tribunal has accepted the opinion of that Board as being decisive. If that system is going to be continued, there is no assurance whatever that these men, who have already been examined, and have received a certificate of rejection, are not going to be dragged into the Army, although they are in a totally unfit condition. I must repeat what I said at the beginning, that I think the change proposed is entirely fatuous, and that if the Bill passes in this form it simply means that these men, who surely have enough to suffer from the knowledge of their physical condition, which has been revealed to them for the first time in many cases by examinations to which they have already been subjected, instead of being relieved of their anxiety, they are going to be harassed, they are going to be summoned before this Medical Board, or whatever it is, with almost a certainty that, in spite of their unfit condition, they are going to be driven into the Army.
I am very sorry to intervene, but I think it is due that I should say a word or two in consequence of what was said in regard to the Amendment accepted by the Government, and which has been described in the language just used by my hon. Friend. On the contrary, I think there is a very vital difference in the Bill as it stands and the Amendment which the Government have agreed to accept. I think, even on the grounds which my hon. Friend has set forth—and with his general purpose of protecting men who are medically unfit from going into the Army, I am absolutely in accord—there is a very great difference between the proposition that is now made to the Committee and the Bill as it stands. Surely, if the Army Council have to direct that a man is to have sent to him a notice if they require him to be re-examined, they will not send that notice to men who have been rejected eight, nine, or ten times, men whose medical record they have before them, men who are halt, blind or lame, or who are obviously unfit to go into the Army. There are thousands of such cases, and if such cases are ruled out, and we have to get down to the minimum of cases which do require to be re-examined, I think, with the safeguard of the appeal which, I understand, is now admitted, there is more to be said for this Clause in the amended form than there was at the beginning. At the same time, I do just want to associate myself with those who are anxious that the muddle which has undoubtedly characterised this medical examination in the past shall be definitely set aside for the future, and if we can have some absolute guarantee that men who are epileptics, men who are obviously unfit, are not going to be taken into the Army either under this re-examination or, what is still more important, in my opinion, that the vast number of men who will be brought into the Army under this Bill shall not have to run the risks which have been referred to, I think if we can have that assurance I do not see any particular danger in merely re-examining a number of men whom the Army Council think ought not to be allowed to slip through. If that examination is not to be conducted on better lines than in the past, I should be against re-examination or allowing re-examination to be conducted as in the past.
11.0 P.M.
Would not the position be eased if we made arrangements for the Army Medical Board to see private physicians without the man being there? Cases of chronic invalids who are medically unfit could be dealt with in that way. In some cases the only possible way by which the Army Medical Board can have the facts is by them being able to see the man's own physician. I know a man who appealed on the grounds of health, and the tribunal would not hear his specialist at all and the Army Medical Board also refused to see him, and he was passed for general service, although he had been ten years under a specialist suffering from two internal forms of illness. These are cases in regard to which a specialist might have access to the Medical Board or family physician, and if this were done facts could be promptly ascertained that could not be discovered by a mere cursory examination of the man. In many cases these breakdowns which take place after a man has entered the Army could be prevented if proper medical evidence would be considered by the Army Medical Board. It would ease the situation if the Government would give us an assurance on that point. There is no doubt that the medical examinations which have been held this year have been more strict than those held before, but the men who have just been rejected should not have to come up again. Those are points which the Government might consider, and if they would meet them they would very materially ease the situation.
I want to raise an entirely new point, which has not yet been touched upon, in connection with this Amendment, and I appeal to the House to give us a little more time on this extremely important Amendment. We began this discussion at 9.50, and we have only been an hour and a quarter discussing what is really the crux of a great deal of our objections to this Bill. I think hon. Members opposite will agree that there has been up to this point no attempt to delay the Bill unreasonably. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] As one who has said although we are beaten on the principle we might find agreement on details, I now say that we are much more likely to find ourselves not at loggerheads if we are allowed to discuss this question from another aspect which I propose to put before the House. I want to say quite frankly—I am only expressing my own personal view at the moment, and do not speak for anybody but myself—that I agree that there has been a great deal of very hasty medical examinations. There has also been a very great deal of bad medical examination, and it may be that there have escaped the recruiting officers, or the Army Council, or the War Office a number of men who on re-examination ought perhaps to be brought within the ranks of the Army, but will the Government accept responsibility for the men that they enlist? That is a perfectly fair and square offer, and I make it to my hon. Friends opposite. When a man is enlisted by the War Office or the Army Council, is this House of Commons prepared to say it will stand by that man whatever the consequences are to his health? Is that a fair offer or is it not? Will my hon. Friends opposite respond to it? We have present to-night, and I am glad to see him, because he is here from the front, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee (Colonel Churchill). He knows, and he wil agree with me, that there are at this moment a considerable number of unfit men in France. There are, as my hon. Friend reminds me, a considerable number of unfit men in Great Britain. What happens to these men? Supposing a man dies, as has been the case over and over again, unless the War Office, who has accepted him as medically fit, say that his disease has been contracted or aggravated by his service in the Army, they take no responsibility, and they pay nothing to his widow.
This is a question we have had discussed, and which the hon. Gentleman himself has debated on other occasions. It really cannot be permitted here, and I must ask the Committee again to come to a decision. There is the subsequent Amendment of the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Wardle), as as well as the Clause itself to be dealt with. It cannot be an encouragement to me to try to provide, as is my obvious duty as Chairman, Members all round with fair opportunities if hon. Members really go too far.
I accept what you say, because I understand when we come to the question of the Clause standing part you will admit the argument I am making.
The hon. Member must not understand that at all.
I understood you to say you were trying to provide Members all round with fair opportunities and that among other things there was the question that the Clause stand part. I understood from that I should be able to advance this argument: This paragraph says if the Army Council are satisfied that he should not again present himself for medical examination he is not to be brought up. I want to put this point. I do it not because I want to obstruct but because I feel very keenly and sincerely on this, question of liability. I want to ask if it is not a fair and proper argument to advance against re-examining these rejected men the fact that if any of them are accepted the War Office does not accept responsibility?
Will this Amendment put my Amendment later on the Paper out of order. Can the Question be put so as-to protect that Amendment?
I am afraid it is a question of hon. Members protecting one another. If, on a preliminary Amendment, hon. Members discuss a whole Sub-section or Clause in the manner they have done this evening, while I am anxious to give the individual Member his opportunity, the point raised is rather a question for hon. Members, I cannot allow these things to be raised many times over. As regards the point put by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge), I cannot accept his suggestion. If I were to he must see what it will lead to, namely, a discussion on the amount of pension or of Army pay, or grants to widows and so on. That cannot be done.
I have not even advanced to the stage of discussing the amount of pension or pay. I was not going to touch that subject. I was putting a simple proposition in the form of a question, and I will leave it at that. Will the War Office, if we give them the liberty they ask for under this Bill to re-examine these men, accept responsibility in their case?
Mr. MORRELL rose—
rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put," but the Chairman withheld his consent, and declined then to put that Question.
Mr. MORRELL rose— [Interruption.]
I understand the hon. Member wishes to raise a point of Order?
Yes. I want to know if I shall be precluded from moving my Amendment which comes later on the Paper?
It depends on the decision of the Committee. I cannot give a ruling in advance.
Then I desire, if I may, very respectfully to say a few words. [Interruption.] I protest against the spirit displayed by hon. Members who try to shout down anyone who on this side rises to speak for liberty. This is the first time I have attempted to address this Committee. I have certainly never done anything whatever to obstruct this Bill. I am making a protest, and I intend to go on with it. I intend to protest against the spirit of Prussianism; against the attempt to browbeat—
Will the hon. Member address to me the point he desires to raise?
If I can get an hearing I will endeavour to put it before you.
If the hon. Member will address himself to me he will succeed.
I want, first of all, to protest against the whole proposal; and, secondly, to appeal to the right hon. Gentleman whether it is not possible to come to some compromise over this business in order to prevent the breach of faith with these men which is involved in the proposal he is now making. The right hon. Gentleman did advance one argument which had real substance in it, and on this I want to make a very fair attempt at compromise. That argument was that a certain number of certificates of exemption have got into the wrong hands. [Interruption.]
I must call the hon. Member's attention to the Rule against the repetition either of an hon. Member's own arguments or those made by another hon. Member.
This is an entirely new point which has not yet been raised in this Debate. I have not yet had time to make clear what it is. The right hon. Member suggested that there were certificates of exemption which were wrongly held or which had passed by fraudulent means into the hands of people who ought not to have them. I suggest it would be possible for him to modify this provision in such a way—[Interruption.]
On a point of Order. May I call your attention to the fact that the hon. Member for Worcester (Sir E. Goulding) is constantly interrupting.
Obstruction in war-time is a scandal.
I would call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the point that if his only objection is, as I understand it to be, to see that people should not be exempted from military service who are the holders of certificates which have been improperly obtained, which are not signed, or which have come into their hands fraudulently, it would be perfectly possible for him to put on them the onus of proving that they are the people mentioned in the certificates or the people to whom they have been issued. If he would do that it would take away some of the greatest objections which are felt with regard to this provision. It is suggested that I am repeating arguments already used. I am doing nothing of the sort. [Interruption]. It is impossible to develop an argument properly if hon. Members insist upon trying to shout down their opponents. [Interruption]. Their behaviour shows the spirit which is behind this Bill.
I wish to ask a question, and do not mean to speak for more than two or three minutes. [Interruption]. I very seldom intervene in Debates, and have not taken up ten minutes of the time of the House during the last three months, therefore I think I am entitled to intervene now. I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether persons who have attested and undergone examination after examination and upon his advice have appealed again to a medical board and obtained a certificate from them, will come under the operation of this Sub-section? I know of cases of volunteers who have attested who have attempted to join a regiment for general service, but have been rejected by the regimental doctor, who have then attempted to enter the Service in another place, and at last have gone to the medical board and obtained a certificate from them. I want to know if they will again have to undergo an examination if this Bill passes?
They are the cases for which the machinery specially provides.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 179; Noes, 49.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), after the word "fifteen," to insert the words "unless he has received a certificate that he is permanently unfit for naval or military service of the Crown or."
I cannot see myself that that raises any separate point.
It does raise a separate point from that which has been decided. The difference is this, that in the last Amendment we have dealt with every sort of certificate that has been given by the medical authorities. As is well known to the War Office, different certificates have been given, some marked "rejected," and some marked "rejected for this or that reason"; and there are certificates on which a man is told that he is permanently unfit either for naval or military service. Therefore, this is a considerably narrower Amendment than the last, because it would mean that a man would have to undergo re-examination, though he was permanently unfit if this Amendment is not adopted.
On a point of Order. I think that the hon. Gentleman's Amendment is moved under a misapprehension. This Clause applies only to time-expired men, and those who were medically rejected are already exempt. We discussed that on the previous Amendment.
That is quite a mistake. This Clause does not apply only to time-expired men. I ask your ruling on that point, as to whether this applies only to time-expired men.
I did not read it so. Now that I apprehend the point raised by the hon. Member for the Attercliffe Division, I think that the most direct procedure would be that we should deal with the Amendment of the hon. Member for Stockport, and then we shall see whether the hon. Member's Amendment is required as an addition. That clearly is the procedure. The hon. Member has a small point to put before the Committee. We ought to get the broad point settled first before we can satisfactorily see whether the hon. Member's Amendment is required or not.
I respectfully submit that you should have regard to this fact that the Clause is one which defines who are persons who may be liable to compulsion, even though they have since the 1st of August last been rejected. With great respect, surely we must decide who those persons are who may be compelled before we decide what are the conditions.
I am arguing that these people if they have received a certificate showing that they are permanently unfit should not be subject to re-examination in any circumstances. That is the whole point of my Amendment. Therefore, the subsequent Amendment to be moved by the hon. Member for Stockport will not interfere with that in any way, but will only deal with the method of examining those who still remain over. We have stated here that a great deal of anxiety and worry is being caused to large numbers of ailing people because they have got to go again through all they have gone through before, and we are all agreed that that should be reduced to the lowest possible dimensions, and that the least possible anxiety and worry should be caused to those who are and have been in ill-health. It may be that in certain cases doctors have felt that a man at the time of his examination was unfit for the Army, but they might also think that he was for all time unfit for that Service. There are cases such as that of a man who has been suffering from chronic heart disease, or something of that sort, and the doctor not only knew that the man was unfit for military service at the time he was examined, but was perfectly aware that the man never would be fit for either military or naval service. The doctor gives him a certificate marked, not only "unfit," but "permanently unfit." I say that where that is given there should be no question of medical re-examination for that man. I think that the Amendment is so reasonable and so moderate that it ought to appeal to the Government. The Government have given us very little in regard to this measure; I am not aware that any concession has been made, and I would ask the President of the Local Government Board how many fit soldiers he expects to get among those who have received certificates marked "permanently unfit." In fact, as the hon. and gallant Member for Birmingham pointed out, there are far too many unfit men in the Army already, from the point of view of the Army, and the efficiency and value of its work. These men might do, in civilian work, what they never could accomplish in military service. It would be an excellent thing if the Government could see the reasonableness of this proposal, and also see that they are not going to get fit soldiers from among those holding certificates marked "permanently unfit." Are you going to subject large numbers of these people to needless worry during the next few months? Some extraordinary decisions have been given by some of the doctors as to the men that ought to be taken into the Army, and these holders of certificates are worrying themselves, though knowing they are unfit to make good soldiers and knowing the character of some of the medical decisions already given. The hon. and gallant Member opposite said they did not want such men for the Army, but since such men are taken into that service it is the most difficult thing in the world to get them out of it, such is the red-tape of the War Office.
The hon. Member is now going back to the previous discussion. The only distinction between this and the subject of the previous discussion lies in the word "permanent," and the hon. Gentleman must confine himself to that point.
I have made my point, and as I am not here for purposes of obstruction, I will content myself with having moved the Amendment.
I admit that my interruption of the hon. Member was made in error. There is ground, certainly, for some consideration in cases where such certificates as those of which the hon. Member speaks are found to be correct in all respects, and prove "permanent disability." I do not like the words my hon. Friend has moved now, but perhaps he will accept my assurance that I will look into the matter with a view to the insertion of words which will meet the case.
I am very glad to have that assurance, and to know that the matter will be considered between now and the Report stage. Therefore, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move in Sub-section (2) to leave out the word "unless" ["unless the Army Council"], and to insert instead thereof the word "if."
There must be another change in contemplation. The 1st August is the day on which persons to whom this Clause applies will be compelled. It is quite plain the Army Council must give notice a reasonable time before that. What is the reasonable time?
There is an Amendment handed in on that point, and it would be better to deal with it then.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendment made: In Sub-section (2), leave out the words "need not," and insert instead thereof the words "should."
I beg to move at the end of Sub-section (2) to insert the words, "previously to the fifteenth day of June, 1916." The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon), has stated the reasons for this Amendment. These persons had the expectation that they would not be called on for some time, and I submit the War Office ought to know in a month men they desire to call up.
I could not accept this Amendment without an opportunity of considering it. We have thrown the whole onus probandi on the War Office and the Army Council, and it is now suggested that under the Bill, which will probably not pass into law for another eleven days, you should allow only until the 18th June for the whole of the work, which everybody, especially those who are opposed to our proposals, agree should be done with more care and completeness. It is throwing upon the authorities a burden which it would be impossible to discharge. To everyone who comes within the operation of the Bill there is given a full month from the time he becomes liable. None of these men can become liable until the 1st August, 1916; they will receive their notice, and they must have a full month to make their arrangements. Surely there is no reason why they should have longer. The only other reason is that you ought to have some fixed date by which the War Office should complete their work. That fixed date is the 1st August. I will see between then and the Report stage whether it be desirable to put any limitation at all. You are throwing a very heavy burden of work on the Army Council, and we must not give a date which would make it impossible for the work to be done except slovenly and carelessly.
Is it the intention of the Army Council to examine the whole of these cases before they decide to give notice? Or is it the intention to take lists from the recruiting officers and accept them without going into the cases at all?
I do not suppose the Army Council will go into the cases themselves. What they propose is to set up machinery through the recruiting officers, assisted by the people, to enable all these genuine cases to present themselves, either through their certificates or individually, and secure immunity.
I quite expect my hon. Friend will withdraw the Amendment now that the point has been raised. There are really two parties to be considered in this matter. Certainly we must not put into the Bill a date which is impractically early from the point of view of the Army Council. Nobody wants to put in a date so early that the Army Council cannot do what is cast upon them. On the other hand it is equally important that you should give the men affected by this Clause all the notice you can.
My right hon. Friend has promised to consider several matters before the Report stage, and now he has promised to consider this. Are we to have a day between Committee and Report? If not, I hope my hon. Friend will not withdraw the Amendment.
I should not have undertaken to consider these matters before Report if it had not been that the Government intended that there should be an interval between Committee and Report.
I am much obliged to my right hon. Friend for the way in which he has met my suggestion. In naming a date I was necessarily hampered by the fact that the 1st August had already been accepted as the last date. I am not sure that it is the case that the thirty days would necessarily apply to these men. I understand, however, that the proposal is a careful redrafting of this Sub-section, and that the understanding is that these men are to receive ample notice. Under these circumstances I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The next Amendment on the Paper, standing in the name of the hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King), appears to me to make no difference in the Bill: it is merely putting it another way round.
If you think that, I do not move it.
The several following Amendments standing in the name of the hon. Member are out of place and not cognate to this Clause.
I will later move a new Clause.
I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (2), to add the words, "A medical re-examination shall only take place at the direction of a properly constituted board, one-half of the members of which shall be civilian doctors, and men who are found unfit for active military duties shall be discharged from the reserve and given a certificate of absolute exemption."
I do so on behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn. We desire this addition, not only because we think the proposal it contains is a fair and right one in itself, but in order to give the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board an opportunity of explaining the arrangements for medical examination. I will, therefore, at once give way for what I hope will be a full explanation.
I hope this Amendment will not be pressed. One of the causes of our difficulties has been the extraordinary pressure upon civilian medical men. The demands upon the medical profession have been tremendous. We have had to ask for recruits for the Royal Army Medical Corps, and the result has been a very serious lessening of the number of medical men available for ordinary civilian work, and very great pressure upon these. There is also the difficulty that if you have civilian medical men they are drawn from the same areas from which the recruits are drawn, and all sorts of questions arise which it is very desirable should not arise in this particular class of medical work. The work is now done by a Medical Board composed of members of the Royal Army Medical Corps. In addition to these gentlemen there is an Advisory Committee which goes up and down the country superintending the work done by the Medical Board. I think the Committee will find that the rearrangement and reorganisation which has been made will have a very material effect in drastically improving the work which has hitherto been done by the medical examiners. The Adjutant-General is fully alive to the fact that unfortunate errors have been committed, and he himself is taking an immense amount of trouble to see that the new machinery may be more efficient. I think the Committee can safely, for the present at all events, leave the matter in his hands.
The right hon. Gentleman in his reply has not dealt with one part of this Amendment. Might I, in answer to what he has said, put this point to him? It may be that it is difficult to get a board on which one half of the members shall be civilian doctors, owing to the pressure on the profession at the moment, but could that not be met by giving the men some sort of independent appeal? There are a number of men who come before those boards and are turned down although they have independent medical testimony from civilian doctors which apparently has no weight. I know an extraordinary case myself in which a man presented himself and produced the results of six inspections of sputum, showing that he was suffering from tuberculosis, and yet he was accepted as fit for general Army service. In a case like that it seems to me it might have been settled by an appeal to an independent doctor. I think it is only fair it should be met in that way. But the part of the Amendment which has not been dealt with is that which says, "men who are found unfit for active military duties shall be discharged from the reserve and given a certificate of absolute exemption." I will not raise that at any length, but I think that does offer a sug- gestion to meet a difficulty which is put over and over again in this House, that the Army is keeping inside the Army and refusing to part with men who might naturally help the situation outside. In the Secret Session, and afterwards in the Report issued to the public, the Prime Minister stated that the War Office was at the present moment attempting to release 200,000 men back into industrial or civilian life in order to meet the other needs of the country. This part of the Amendment does offer some way out for that. It suggests that if this Board—and, of course, the Board would be the Army Council Board, because the right hon. Gentleman has said he cannot accept the Board proposed here—find that a man is absolutely unfit for active military duties, I think every one listening to me will agree that that man had better be sent back to industrial life to help the country in that way. If my right hon. Friend will agree to consider that between now and Report, and accept that part of this Amendment, many of us would feel we were being met in a very important phase of the organisation of all our forces to win this War.
I think we ought to have a reply from the President of the Local Government Board on an Amendment of this character.
You have had one.
There has been no answer to my hon. Friend who spoke on this matter. In view of the statement of the right hon. Gentleman which many of us in the House welcomed, that he himself was dealing with the weeding-out process, which has been one of the greatest scandals of the War, I do hope he will reply to what is a very important point raised by my hon. Friend.
I do not think it is quite fair. I have already given a full reply. I really do submit to the hon. Member for Mansfield (Sir A. Markham), that if every time a separate question is put by a separate Member after the Minister has spoken, we shall be here days and days. The suggestion made by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) is one of which I took due note, and, so far as consideration goes, I think it is wholly unnecessary. It is already covered in what he said previously with regard to total disablement, and I believe it totally unnecessary, but, of course, if it is necessary I will take any steps desirable, but I can- not promise a certificate of total exemption, nor would it have any effect beyond the fact that a man was found totally disabled.
Amendment negatived.
The Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Wardle) to leave out of Sub-section (2) the word "unless" and to insert the word "if" is unnecessary. Other Amendments on the Paper should be moved as new Clauses and they are not in order on this Clause. I think the same point is raised by a number of other Amendments.
The following Amendments stood on the Paper:—
To add at the end of the Clause,
(4) Sub-section (3) of Section 3 of the principal Act shall cease to have any effect.—[ Sir J. D. Rees. ]
(4) There shall be added to the First Schedule to the principal Act, Paragraph 7, "Members of either House of Parliament."
(5) There shall be added to the First Schedule to the principal Act, Paragraph 8, "Any person who makes a statutory declaration before the justices at petty sessions that he has a conscientious objection to serving in this War.—[ Mr. Holt. ]
The Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees), and the two standing in the name of the hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Holt), come under the ruling I am just going to give. I have carefully considered the effect on the framework of the Bill of proposals to amend the principal Act, and all the Amendments of that character unless they are strictly cognate not to the Clause which is amended by the particular Clause of this Bill, but to the subject matter of the Clause in this Bill, they must be brought up as separate Clauses, or else the Bill would not read. I treat every hon. Member's Amendment with the same respect, and I assume it is going to be carried, and I have to consider how it looks when inserted in the Bill. This rule disposes of a number of Amendments.
I beg to give notice that I intend to move a new Clause.
Some hon. Members have taken the precaution already of putting down their proposals as Amendments and as new Clauses.
I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (3). I do so in order that we may have an explanation from the President of the Local Government Board as to why he considers this change is necessary. I think it will lead to obvious injustice, and I hope it will not be persisted in. I do not desire to argue this question at length, and I will at once give way to the representative of the Government.
I do not quite understand what is the contention raised by my hon. Friend. This Sub-section is only to bring the Bill into conformity with the practice under the original Act by which certain powers are reserved with regard to certain Government Departments. There is nothing fresh in it.
The Sub-section in the principal Act reads:
"Any Government Department may direct that any certificates granted by or on behalf of that Department before the appointed date as to employment on work for war purposes may be treated as certificates of exemption for the purposes of this Act."
If you take out the words "before the appointed day," you widen the scope of the certificate.
I think the hon. Member has misapprehended the purpose of this Amendment. It is merely to bring the appointed date of the new Act into conformity. It is a necessary drafting Amendment.
I quite agree, but reading the original Act without the words you get a different meaning.
It is merely to give effect to it for the purposes of this Act.
If the principal Act is read with these words omitted the Section in the Act has a different value altogether. That is my difficulty, but if it is clear that it is nothing but a drafting Amendment and that no change is effected I will at once withdraw my Amendment. Perhaps the Solicitor-General would advise the Committee on this point.
It seems to me that the Amendment is very clear. It enables a Government Department to declare that certificates given by them on their behalf under this Act as to employment on work for War purposes shall be treated as certificates of exemption. Under the original Act they could only be so declared if granted before the appointed date. This does widen the power, and I am rather surprised that my hon. Friend objects to it.
I am very much obliged for the explanation. I only desired to know what it meant; and I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
If the Clause is carried as it now stands, will it preclude my moving an Amendment that Government Department shall not be the sole authority for granting exemptions to men in the Department, or shall I still be in order in moving the Amendment standing in my name? It is a point of some importance.
I can only speak of the hon. Member's Amendment from recollection at the moment; but surely the mere dealing with these words "before the appointed day," does not affect the point which he desires to raise later on. I cannot see how it can, but I will deal with the Amendment when it comes up.
Sub-section (5) of Section 2 reads: Any Government Department may direct that any certificates granted by or on behalf of that Department before the appointed date as to employment on work for war purposes may be treated as certificates of exemption for the purposes of this Act.
If it is carried in this form it places my Amendment in some jeopardy, and perhaps I ought to move it at this point.
We are not moving a new Sub-section or doing anything with a Sub-section in the original Act. The proposal is to omit certain words.
Words proposed to be left out ordered to stand part of the Clause.
Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
I think this Clause should be omitted altogether. I shall not make a speech, but I feel quite certain we ought to go into the Division Lobby against it. The marginal note to the Clause reads, "Modifications of exceptions from service." But the curtailment of these exceptions are made among a class of men whom I would far rather see go. Although I am against Conscription I would far rather that the age at the top end was raised in order to bring in men who are physically fit. That would be preferable to calling on these rejected men to go through the test again. I do not like doing these things, and for the reasons that have been repeatedly given in this Debate I shall oppose the inclusion of this Clause in the Bill.
Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 157; Noes, 21.
CLAUSE 4.—(Provisions as to Certificates of Exemption.)
(1) Where a decision of a local tribunal has been varied on appeal to the Appeal Tribunal, any certificate of exemption granted in pursuance thereof shall be reviewed or renewed only by the Appeal Tribunal on an application made direct to that tribunal, and the provisions of the principal Act as to the review or renewal of certificates of exemption shall apply accordingly.
(2) A certificate of exemption may be granted under the principal Act subject to the condition that the certificate shall not be renewable except on an application made with the leave of the tribunal, and unless leave is so given, the provisions of the principal Act as to the renewal of certificates shall not apply to a certificate granted subject to such a condition.
The decision of the tribunal granting or refusing leave under this provision shall be final.
I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (1). I suppose it applies to all kinds of certificates of exemption. Does it apply also to industrial certificates of exemption?
Yes.
If it applies to all certificates of exemption why should these matters not come before the local tribunal in this particular instance? After all, the Appeal Tribunal is more difficult to get at. It exists over a wider area. I should be glad to know that before we discuss it.
There is an important point raised by this Amendment. I am speaking from my memory of the principal Act, but if I am right the local tribunals alone were given power under these circumstances to review a certificate. It was the Government Department or the local tribunal which alone could review a certificate granted. This proposal of the Bill which we propose to omit extends that power to the Appeal Tribunal, and gives it a power that it had not got previously. If that is so, it is a substantial change in the principal Act, and I think it is a matter of very great importance. I should be glad to know whether my interpretation of the principal Act in this respect is correct or not.
I would like the President of the Local Government Board to explain why this change is being made. Many of these certificates of exemption deal with industrial cases—cases of men who are regarded by their employers or by the nation as being engaged in work of so essential a character that for the time, at any rate, they cannot be spared. Consequently they get what is called a temporary certificate of exemption, which, may last for four, five, or six months. These certificates of exemption are granted by the first court—the lower court; and, as I understand it, it is not the people who heard the circumstances of the case who are now going to decide whether the certificate is going to be extended. One Court is going to decide as to whether a man shall get a certificate, and at a later period, three months hence, another Court which knows nothing about the circumstances, is going to decide whether the man's certificate is still valid, or whether it is going to be changed. I want to know whether that is the case. I also want to know why it is proposed that in future these certificates shall be reviewed or renewed only by the Appeal Tribunal, because that is a change, and I think it will be satisfactory if we have an explanation from the President of the Local Government Board.
I think there is some misapprehension. The law is as stated by my hon. Friend, but the original Act is not affected by the proposal here. The proposal is really a very simple one, and it is made in the interests of the economy of time more than anything else. The proposal is not that there should be a hearing by the local tribunal and then a subsequent hearing by the Appeal Tribunal who have not heard the original case. The proposal we make is that where the local tribunal have granted an exemption, and the certificate has been varied by the Appeal Tribunal, that any further reference to the certificate shall be to the tribunal who has last dealt with it and have given a decision. If it is to go back over their heads to the Court of the first instance, which has given the certificate which has been subsequently altered, it means a great deal of delay. That would be using the original Act in a way which I do not think Parliament intended. This power is not given with a view to materially changing the procedure in a spirit contrary to the original Act, but is intended to give what we think was the intention of Parliament and the Government, that where the Appeal Tribunal has varied any certificate, any further application shall be made to them and not to the tribunal of the first instance.
It only deals with cases where the Appeal Tribunal has varied the certificate.
I see that now.
I wish to ask my right hon. Friend whether I am right in this. There were something like 16,000 or 17,000 appeals under the Derby scheme which came to the Central Appeal Tribunal before the District Appeal Tribunals were formed. It has been a very laborious task getting through these appeals, but it is nearly completed, and in a great many cases there have been variations made of the decision from the local tribunal. It would be perfectly impossible to saddle the Central Appeal Tribunal with a second batch of appeals of that kind. I understand that in these cases where the Central Tribunal, who are not really included in the Act, varied these particular exemptions, the cases they exempted will go to the local Appeal Tribunal again and not to the district tribunal, and be subject to the usual procedure.
That is so.
I want it to be quite clear that this is not going to be a hardship on the applicant. The President of the Local Government Board says this is going to be an economy of time. That may be so in some cases, but it seems to me that in many cases it will be a great hardship on a man who may be living in a small village and who will have to travel to the county town at great expense of time and money to himself in order to decide some small point which might quite well be decided by the local tribunal. Let me give a simple case. Suppose a man has exemption for a certain time, on certain conditions. These conditions, or that time, have been slightly varied by the appeal tribunal. When the time has elapsed the conditions are very much the same—as they were, and he thinks he has the same right to further exemption as when he first applied. Must he, then, go to the appeal tribunal to decide a comparatively small local point? Would it not be much better to have it decided to his own satisfaction by the local tribunal which tried his case in the first instance? It seems to me that for simplicity of working the old Act was better, and that this is really not wanted.
May I explain this? I have sat on appeal tribunals, and there are many cases. This only refers to cases where an appeal has been made, and the appeal tribunal has made a decision at variance, giving an extension or shortening the extension, with that of the local tribunal. Cases have been brought before us by solicitors and others in which the man says: "When my time expires to whom am I to appeal? If I go back to the tribunal against whom I have appealed they will decide as they did first time, and I shall have to appeal again." In the interests of the applicant, therefore, he is given in this proviso the right to go straight to the appeal tribunal which has given him exemption instead of to the men who have refused him before.
There is only one suggestion I should like to make. I think the point of the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Morrell) may be valid in some cases. Would it, therefore, not be advisable, instead of saying "any certificate of exemption granted in pursuance thereof shall be reviewed," to make it "may be reviewed"? In that case the holder of the certificate can choose the local tribunal or the appeal tribunal for the purpose of further review. In country districts I think it might impose an unfair disability on some of these men. I have had cases where the travelling expenses have been rather considerable, especially on labour exemption, and I am afraid I have not thought it out very carefully, but I think the intention of this Sub-section is simply admirable, and I would suggest that it might obviate the objection which has been made, a real objection, if the holder of the certificate had the power to choose the tribunal to which he would go.
The danger of that is this: that in these cases—I do not think they are numerous, but there is a certain number—where the local tribunal has taken a view of the case which appears to be incorrect, which is not justified by the facts, or is contrary to the intention of the Act, and where their decision is reviewed by an appeal tribunal with a result not quite so satisfactory to the applicant, if you give him discretion it is obvious that he will go to the court of first instance, who gave him the more favourable treatment, rather than go to the court of appeal, which gave a decision more consistent with the law. I should not like to give that power, but rather to prevent cases, where the appeal court has given its decision altering the decision of the lower court, in which the applicant goes back to the lower court, and thus produces the game of battledore and shuttlecock to which I have referred, and causing a great deal of confusion and delay. I think that, on the whole, justice is met by our proposal, which I may say has been carefully considered, and is the result of a quite impartial investigation of the circumstances by those who are not concerned on the one side or the other, either with the War Office or the workman, but who really want to see fair play and the work expeditiously done.
I do not think the right hon. Gentleman's arguments are at all conclusive as to why this should not be made permissive. He says some of the tribunals have not been satisfactory. So far as the county of Nottingham is concerned, the majority have done their work well, but some of my Constituents have been treated extremely harshly, and at the appeal tribunal worse than at the tribunal itself. If a man comes before the appeal court, which takes a view more favourable to the Government than did the tribunal itself that in no way alters the position, because the Government have still the right of appealing against any decision at which the local tribunal may arrive. By the Amendment suggested by the hon. Member for Leicester (Mr. Ramsay Macdonald), where few people live a considerable distance from the county towns, it would be a great convenience for them to go before a local tribunal. How are the Government going to be prejudiced if the case comes before a local tribunal? The military representative has still the right to appeal to the Court of Appeal, and to say that would mean loss of time cannot be seriously meant. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman, having regard to all the circumstances, and that some of the tribunals have not been working satisfactorily, to take this into consideration. I hope he will reconsider his decision.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider between now and the Report stage whether provision cannot be made in the direction indicated by the hon. Member for Leicester (Mr. Ramsay Macdonald). In scattered districts extremely great hardship will be caused to men who may be appealing in getting to the appeal tribunals, and so long as the decision of the tribunal of appeal is to be final, I do not see why any great difficulty should arise if it was advisable to appeal to the local tribunal. I trust the right hon. Gentleman will consider this.
I am quite willing to consider it, but I honestly cannot hold out much hope of meeting the case because the difficulties are much more practical than the hon. Member for Mansfield (Sir A. Markham), who usually takes the opposite view, seems to think.
I should like to join in the appeal that has been made to the right hon. Gentleman. There is great hardship in some districts for those who have to go to the Appeal Tribunal.
Amendment negatived.
The next Amendments come as new Clauses. Mr. King.
There are so many of my Amendments that have been passed over, no doubt to appear again on another occasion, and I am not quite sure of the one for which you have called upon me.
To leave out Sub-section (2).
I beg, then, to move to leave out Sub-section (2).
The Amendment moved by the hon. Gentleman is, I suggest, of very great importance. The Sub-section which it is proposed to leave out of the Bill reads:
"A certificate of exemption may be granted under the principal Act subject to the condition that the certificate shall not be renewable except on an application made with the leave of the tribunal, and unless leave is so given, the provisions of the principal Act as to the renewal of certificates shall not apply to a certificate granted subject to such a condition.
"The decision of the tribunal granting or refusing leave under this provision shall be final." This is a most amazing Sub-section to have introduced into this Bill. What is the present position? At present many persons come before a tribunal owing to circumstances of financial, domestic, or business urgency, and claim a temporary postponement. It is not possible either for them or for the tribunal to state when their difficulty will have been removed, and it has been the custom for many tribunals, feeling the difficulty of this position and desiring to act perfectly fairly towards the applicant—I am not making any charge in this connection against the tribunals—to say: "We will grant exemption of one, two, or three months, and you must then come to us at the end of this time, and can state your position, and we will again consider your application." That has been a perfectly fair arrangement, so long as it has been fairly worked. The applicant goes away for a month, comes back at the end of that period, states the position he is in and the work he is doing, and so forth, and the tribunal then renews the certificate if he makes out his case and the tribunal thinks fit. But this Clause, if it stands, will entirely sweep away that arrangement which has in many cases worked quite fairly. Now, when these applications are made, many tribunals will say: "We will give you an exemption for a certain period, during which time you must arrange your affairs or your business. We shall give it under this Section; that you shall not have the power without our permission to apply for exemption, extension, or renewal of your certificate." There is no doubt that the proposal is made in this Bill in this form, because of the great number of claims that are placed before tribunals, and, therefore, to relieve the congestion of the tribunals. But to relieve the congestion of the tribunal at the cost of doing justice and of making fairly the needs of the applicants, is to do a very great wrong indeed, and is to remove from the principal Act one of the provisions which give some protection to a great number of applicants. This is a matter of quite first-class importance to many thousands of people affected by the Bill, and I earnestly hope that it is going to be very carefully discussed, and that the Government is not going to offer an unyielding front on this important question. I support the Amendment.
I earnestly trust the right hon. Gentleman will not accept this Amendment. I speak with some experience of tribunals, and of the classes of cases in which the tribunal is very anxious and desirous that the applicant should be exempted. But they have found it very difficult to do so because of the fact that these constant renewals can be brought forward, and of the tremendous waste of time they involve. It is a thing to be avoided in a matter of this kind when we are fighting a life-and-death battle. Take an agricultural case. It has gone very much against my grain, as a Scotsman, to have to grant temporary exemption at the Central Appeal Tribunal to many men of military age who are employed to milk cows. We do not employ men to milk cows in Scotland; we employ women. To many of these men we have granted two or three weeks' exemption in order that substitutes may be found and trained in their places during that time. If the man came up again at the end of three months and applied again, having probably made no attempt to find a woman substitute, you have again to go through the whole gamut of appeals, and you have another delay of a month or six weeks; because, if these appeals are numerous, the tribunals take a certain time to get through them. Altogether the situation becomes so cumbrous and the appeals so many that the Government will make the greatest mistake in the world in allowing that kind of thing to go on.
I admit that there is considerable force in what the hon. Baronet (Sir G. Younger) has said, but I ask him to look at the other side of the matter, and see that this Amendment is going to tilt matters very heavily against the applicants. As I understand it, applicants in future will only be able to appeal provided the tribunal allows it.
If they so order.
It is no doubt true that tribunals feel themselves overworked, and are anxious to get rid of as much worry and trouble as possible. But it will be a very wrong thing if that is done by sacrificing the various applicants who desire to have renewals. In the three or six months intervening since he brought forward his first application an applicant's circumstances may have changed in such a way that he may have a stronger claim than previously. How is he going to put that forward? Unless he has a chance of doing so the tribunal would decide the matter before they have heard whether he has a case or not. That is going to tilt matters very heavily against the individual applicant, and I hope that at least some middle way will be found so that the matter might either be definitely settled or the tribunal might say: "We give you two months, and in that time matters must be so re-adjusted that automatically your time expires at the end of that period." In such a case there will be no need for the tribunal to have the case brought before them again. I hope that the man's interests will not be needlessly sacrificed and that some middle way may be found.
I think the hon. Member is quite mistaken in thinking that a man would be refused leave to appeal without being heard. I think it would be the duty of the tribunal if he came to apply again to hear what he had to say. I am afraid the hon. Member is wrong about that. The object is not to relieve the tribunal from overwork. The object is this—it often happens that the balance is very close between giving extension or exemption for a time, and refusing it. If a whole series of appeals is involved a tribunal may feel that they cannot give exemption or extension, whereas if they can give this last-period exemption on condition that it is the last, very often they will grant such exemption.
I am not sure that the Solicitor-General has not demolished the argument for the Sub-section. If, as he says, no tribunal would refuse to hear the merits of the case, that disposes of it, but if the whole case is to be stated as the Solicitor-General suggests why an applicant should have leave to appeal, then it seems to me that the whole ground will be covered needlessly. I would suggest to the Committee that we are approaching a portion of the Bill which needs most vigilant watching at the present time, because we are now trenching upon certain safeguards which were deliberately put in the original Act, and which were advanced again and again in the discussion in Committee as strong reasons for commending the provisions of the Bill to the sympathetic consideration of the House. I look with very great suspicion upon any proposal in this Bill which indirectly or directly trenches upon certain securities given under the original Act. I must say that I think on the balanec this particular Sub-section is likely to be more dangerous to the men concerned than the Government have so far realised, and I will certainly support my hon. Friend if he divides against the Sub-section.
May I point out that we have had no reply from the President of the Local Government Board? May I put this case to him—?
You do not want speeches from each of us. The Solicitor-General has spoken.
The other day I listened to a case where a man appealed for an additional temporary certificate of exemption on the ground that he was the sole organising force in his business, that he employed no one else, and that if he were taken under the provisions of this Act his business would go, and his mother and sister, who were dependent upon that business, would have their livelihood taken away. The tribunal said to the man—I heard the decision given myself —"We think you have made out a case for exemption, but we know that a great number of men will be required for the Army. We will, therefore, give you exemption for two months, and you can then come before us again and ask for further exemption." If he had been given, under this section, a certificate preventing him from appealing without permission, what would happen? He would have no right to go to the appeal tribunal, and I think it is most important that applicants should have that right. The hon. Baronet opposite said in effect that it is necessary to relieve the appeal tribunals of some of their work.
No, what I said was that applicants were very often prejudiced by the fact that they might go on appealing. I know a case where it would be difficult for a tribunal to grant temporary exemption, because they thought it undesirable that the applicant should appeal again.
I think it is very undesirable that applicants should be so prejudiced, and, I think, that this is a very serious admission made by a member of the Central Appeal Tribunal. I hope the Committee will take notice of it.
I should like to understand this, because I have an Amendment down later to leave out the whole Clause. I listened to the speech of the hon. Baronet opposite, who took as an illustration a case very familiar to myself, and to you, Mr. Maclean, in Scotland. There cows are milked by women, and not by men. The hon. Baronet opposite is a great authority upon milk and other liquids, and other members of the Appeal Tribunal may not have the same intimate knowledge as regards more complicated occupations than the simple one of milking cows. Surely in that case the man ought to have the advantage as against the tribunal. I am certain that if I were to be arrested as a criminal for an offence I ought to be in the position that the Court which is going to try me should be put to as much trouble as possible in order to arrive at a decision on the crime for which I am arrested. And similarly, these men who claim exemption should not be prevented asking the appeal tribunals for a renewal simply because the tribunal think he ought not to get it. Surely it is the man's life and actions which are involved, not the tribunals, and I really honestly think that the benefit of the doubt should be given to the man whose alternative is to go into the Army. The alternative of a tribunal is to sit the next day, and the next day also, and to hear these appeals. The man has to go into the Army if he does not get a renewal, and I hope the Law Officers of the Crown will look at the matter from the point of view of the man. That is my objection, and if that can be removed I shall be satisfied.
If it becomes clear that there is a grievance, that grievance will be considered. It is perfectly true that this is an Amendment of the Act passed the other day, but the Committee must remember that that Act was passed at a time when we had little or no experience of the working of machinery of this kind. There have been undoubted cases where it has been sought to put the law at defiance. There is no intention of doing injustice to anyone, and I am convinced that justice will be done. This is a change rendered necessary by our experience under the first Act, and I am very much surprised that it has met with so much opposition. I thought it would be regarded as a very natural result of our experience.
I want to put before the Committee another point of view, and that is that under this Bill you are going to deal with an entirely different section of people than you did under the original Act. Under the original Act you were dealing with single people, while in this Bill you are dealing with married people whose conditions are largely different from the conditions of the single people under the original Act. Speaking from the London point of view. I think you will find that a great number of married men who will come under the Act will be small business men, shopkeepers, clerks and people of that kind who are living in quite different conditions to the large number of single men who came under the original Act. I think it would be unfair to these men if you are going to worsen the conditions of appeal for them as compared with the single men under the original Act, and I hope the Minister in charge of the Bill will consider the Clause from that point of view.
1.0 A.M.
I only rise to express the hope that between now and the subsequent stages of the Bill the President of the Local Government Board will at least consider how far this matter can be dealt with in such a way as to safeguard the claims of applicants. After all, the Committee must remember that the tribunals were made for the applicant, and not the applicant for the tribunals, and what we are anxious for is to see that what we desire is carried out by legislation. I will not put the Committee to the trouble of a Divisioin on this point, but I do ask that between now and the Report stage the President of the Local Government Board shall go over the matter again and see if there is not a middle way between one side and the other.
I beg to move in Sub-section (2), after the word "renewable" ["the certificate shall not be renewable"], to insert the words "or open to review."
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move in Sub-section (2), after the word "renewal" ["the provisions of the principal Act as to the renewal"], to insert the words "or review."
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move to leave out the words "The decision of the tribunal granting or refusing leave under this provision shall be final."
I venture to think that there are good grounds for omitting these two lines, even if the sub-section, which we know is to be reconsidered, is retained. I was struck just now by the few remarks of the hon. Member for West Newington, who pointed out that this Bill will bring in a large number of small tradesmen — that is, people carrying on small shops in London and elsewhere. I was reminded when he was speaking that only two days ago I had an interview in the Lobby here with a gentleman who represented that he was the organising secretary of a large union of newsvendors in London—a union composed of people keeping shops in which a large business is done in selling newspapers, stationery, and various other articles. This gentleman pointed out to me that out of the 5,000 shops, or thereabouts, of this kind in London, a very large number — I was given to understand more than three-quarters — are carried on by men who live on the premises. A shopkeeper of this kind, I am informed, has no male assistants, but does the whole work himself, possibly with the help of one or two members of his family. These shopkeepers represent a very large class who will be brought in under this Bill. I submit with confidence that such people ought to have a power not only of securing a postponement of their call from time to time, but of appealing from the local tribunal to the Appeal Tribunal.
This Amendment would clearly destroy the effect of the Sub-section. It would do this. Whereas it is provided by the Sub-section that where a non-renewable certificate is granted there should be no application for renewals except with the leave of the local tribunal; if this Amendment were passed, a man would come to the local tribunal for leave to apply for a renewal, and if that were refused he would then appeal against the decision. That, as I have said, would destroy the whole effect of the Sub-section.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The whole of the remaining Amendments to this Clause should come as new Clauses.
On a point of Order. We have had a ruling from the Chair that the remaining Amendments should be brought up as new Clauses. In connection with other Bills we have often had Amendments ruled out and have been told that they should be moved as new Clauses, only to find, despite that suggestion, that they were held to be out of order when the new Clauses have come to be discussed. Are we to understand as the result of the ruling from the Chair to-night that these Amendments will be considered in the form of new Clauses at the proper time?
It does not follow that if the Chairman for the time being stated that a proposition should come up as a new Clause, when it comes up as a new Clause it is in order. He simply says that it is not in the right place as an Amendment and that it must be raised as a new Clause.
Question proposed, "That Clause 4, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
I am not going to make a speech, but I simply wish to say that I am going to divide against the Clause.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 141; Noes, 9.
CLAUSE 5.—(Amendment of s. 3 (3) of the Principal Act.)
Sub-section (3) of section three of the principal Act shall be construed as if "two weeks" were substituted for "two months," and as if the words "unless in the meantime the man has made an application for a renewal of his certificate" were substituted for the words "unless in the meantime the man has obtained a renewal of his certificate."
I have four Amendments which are purely drafting Amendments, but I think they are worth putting forward because they call attention to the fact that in making Amendments to the principal Act sometimes the draftsman puts in "the words" before the expression and sometimes he does not. I do not know whether there is any reason for that peculiar way of going on, but in order that it should be more uniform I beg to move after the word "if" ["as if 'two weeks' were substituted"] to insert "the words."
I cannot claim to be a draftsman myself, and I know from long experience the great knowledge of draftsmanship possessed by my hon. Friend, but I prefer the draftsmanship of the younger draftsman to that of my hon. Friend. These words were not lightly put in, and I do not think my hon. Friend ought to press the Amendment.
I think this is much more than a drafting point. We have reached what to me is a most vital point in the Bill. The Amendment seeks to leave out, as if "two weeks" were substituted for "two months." The President of the Local Government Board will at all events do me this amount of credit, that I warned him on the first reading of this Bill of the difficulty that I found myself in with regard to the Munitions Act, and he will remember I gave him the reference to the Clause in the original Munitions Act, which seemed to me to affect this particular proposal in this Clause. May I very shortly recall to hon. Members what was the position under the Munitions Act. The House will remember that if a man did not get a leaving certificate under the Munitions Act, he had six weeks in which to find work before anything further could be done to him. Then we had introduced in this House the first Military Service Bill, which became an Act, and in the original draft of that Bill there was a proposal that at the expiry of six weeks every man should be deemed to be a soldier. It was pointed out in the House that these two periods of time were equal, and that therefore it might be possible—
I rise to a point of order. My hon. Friend is now speaking to the first Amendment to this Clause in the name of the hon. Member for North Somerset, but the Amendment which the hon. Member for North Somerset in point of fact moved was the second Amendment of that group. The Amendment which the hon. Member for East Edinburgh is now speaking to has been passed over.
May I explain? As a matter of fact I happened to take up the Order Paper of yesterday instead of to-day's. The Order Paper of yesterday had printed these two Amendments in the wrong order, a pure mistake of the printer and not of myself. Therefore, if I withdraw this I suppose I can move the other?
The hon. Member, I understand, asks leave to withdraw?
On the point of Order, I hope the House does not think I was wasting time. I was speaking to the Amendment which covered these words to which I referred.
But I was speaking to the Amendment which the hon. Member moved. He asked whether the draftsman meant what he did by putting these words in the Bill.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Does the hon. Member move the other Amendments?
No, Sir.
Question proposed, "That Clause 5 stand part of the Bill."
I beg to move to omit this Clause. I do so for the purpose of raising a very important matter in regard to the time mentioned in the Clause and the desire to change from two months to two weeks the time during which a workman may secure other employment before he becomes eligible to serve in the Army. The President of the Local Government Board will remember very clearly the circumstances under which two months was the period inserted in the original measure. He will remember that there was very considerable fear on the part of large numbers of workpeople that the Act would be used for purposes that approach some form of industrial compulsion; and as a result of representations made in this House and of private deputations representing labour and trade union bodies which waited on the President of the Local Government Board this safeguard was inserted: that a period of two months would be allowed to elapse after a workman had been discharged by his employer before he became eligible to serve in the Army. That was to prevent an employer who had a grievance or a grudge against a workman, or whose workmen might be difficult from a trade union point of view—that was to prevent the employer discharging that man and sending him straight into military service. That was the pledge given to labour, and certainly it helped to make easier the passage of the first Military Service Act. But that pledge, like a good 'many other pledges and understandings, is now to be thrown into the melting pot.
Oh, no no!
Well, something like the melting pot. I shall be very glad to hear what is going to be done in regard to the matter. What we are anxious to safeguard is the position of the employed person, and I am quite sure that the President of the Local Government Board, just as little as ourselves, is anxious that employers, for any purpose of their own, shall use this Act, or that it shall operate for any purpose except military purposes. I am sure there is no one in this House who is anxious to see compulsion used for any private end of any private employer. Therefore, we are anxious that the workman shall not be sacrificed in any way. The hon. Member for East Edinburgh mentioned this, that under the Munitions of War Act, if an employé for any reason leaves his work in a controlled establishment, or if he is discharged by his employer from a controlled establishment, he cannot get employment in any other establishment for a period of six weeks unless he gets the express permission of his employer or the munitions tribunal. That has a very important bearing on this question, because, in the meantime, if a man leaves his work he can be conscripted for military purposes, and the result is that that might make a man submit to all sorts of things which he would not submit to in the ordinary way. The period of two months was put in to meet this point. It was proposed at one time that six weeks should be the period, but two months was put in to meet the difficulty of the workman who desired to leave his work but who could really be kept out of work for six weeks by the employer refusing to give him a leaving certificate. That actually happened in some cases. That has been modified by the amending legislation which altered the Munitions Act. Now all that safeguard has been swept away, and the matter has been brought down to a fortnight, which seems to me to be altogether inadequate, because the workman would not have time to look round to get fresh employment before he becomes eligible to be taken by the military authorities. I am putting the difficulties honestly as I see them—
Surely it would be fairer to deal with the Bill and not with an imaginary case. All I desire is that the hon. Gentleman should put the case as it is in the Bill. He has just said that the two months given to the dismissed workman to get employment is reduced to two weeks. That is not so at all. Under the Bill, in the genuine case of a skilled workman—who ought to be kept because his work is wanted for the nation at home, not in the trenches—the alteration is that he is given two weeks in which to make application, and having made his application he cannot be touched by the War Office. It is not a case of reducing two months to two weeks.
That does not seem to me to be the workman's position, and it does bring it down to a question of two weeks in which he has, as the right hon. Gentleman says, to make this application. The matter is, therefore, going to be decided by the tribunal, and the tribunal is going to have the whole keeping now in regard to the workman, as to whether he is going to be permitted time to find further employment or whether he is going to be put into the Army. That does make serious differences in the status of the employed person, and with regard to all these points we ought to have a far fuller statement regarding this Clause before we allow it to pass.
A man will have a full opportunity of making his application.
In point of fact, but here is the difference. Before, he did not require to make an application. You gave him two months in which to find other or similar employment. You are abolishing that now, and are compelling the workman in a short time to make an appeal to these tribunals. All I can say is that the experiences the workmen have had at these tribunals has not given them very great confidence.
Surely it is necessary to bring the whole question into line?
As I was on this point, perhaps I may finish it. Taking it up where I left off, may I read the Clause in the original Act—
"Where a certificate of exemption ceases to be in force owing to the withdrawal of the certificate or failure to comply with the conditions on which the certificate was granted, or the expiration of the time for which the 'certificate was granted, the man to whom the certificate was granted shall, as from the expiration of two months after the date at which the certificate so ceased to be in force, be deemed to have been enlisted and transferred to the Reserve, in the same manner as if no such certificate had been granted; unless in the meantime the man has obtained a renewal of his certificate."
This Clause in the Bill we have in our hands suggests that instead of "months" the words should be "weeks." [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] I am dealing first of all with the question of time. "Months" has to go out and "weeks." has to go in. That is the period of time. Let me remind the right hon. Gentleman of the last Clause in the original Act— …unless in the meantime the man has obtained a renewal of his certificate. The renewal of the man's original certificate originally covered a period of eight weeks.
It does not require renewal.
It is not a question of what it is for. We are dealing now with the facts, and I do not mind whether hon. Members differ from me as to whether it ought to be so. The facts of the moment are that originally there was this period of eight weeks over which a man could seek the renewal of his certificate. Under the Munitions Act, if he did not get a certificate he was originally deemed to be a soldier at the end of six weeks. That was increased to eight weeks, so that the six weeks in the two Bills should not be co-incident, and that no man could by any means at all be deemed to be a soldier by anything that his employer did. I want to suggest this to the House. We have heard a great deal about troubles. The minds of most Members at the moment are full of the recent trouble in Ireland. A great many Members of this House also know of labour troubles in many parts of the country. We have not heard of the Clyde trouble for some time. Why? Because at the moment there is a kind of truce of God, if one may put it that way, in which certain things are either happening or expected to happen which may make a very considerable difference in the spirit that obtains, or did obtain, upon the Clyde. I want to avoid, quite honestly— and that is the main point I want to make—giving these men any idea at all that you are trying to get at them in another way.
My right hon. Friend will agree that there has been so much legislation of a war emergency nature passed through this House that there are many Members of the House, including all of us, as a matter of fact, who do not really know what has been done. We know what has been done on subjects in which we are interested, but if there are subjects in which we are not interested we have to go and look up these subjects. That is putting the matter quite frankly. If that is so with us, how much more is it so with the man whose time is filled up with working. I want to avoid the impression that you are cutting this down to two weeks.
No.
I have told the hon. and gallant Member that I quite appreciate that he takes a different view of it, but I can assure him that if as poorly intelligenced a man as myself takes that view a great many workmen will not take a very much different view, and that fact has to be appreciated. If my point is wrong, we can easily settle it. Some hon. Members will put me right, and I will be ready, as I always am, to be put right. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman further whether this involves the repeal of the Clause in the original Munitions Act. He promised me he would look into it, and I daresay he has done it, because I always get on very well with the President of the Local Government Board. I always find that he meets me very fairly and honestly, although he very often differs from me in things. He promised to look into that. It does affect the Munitions Act, and if the House agrees to this proposal there may be trouble in districts where we do not want trouble to exist. That is why I am putting the point now. I see the Minister for Education also on the Front Bench. He knows the Glasgow situation, and the Tyne situation, and the situation involved in all these factories and the Munitions Act. I think he might intervene a little in this debate. I do not really want him to intervene, because we don't want to have to stop to listen to his speech. All of us want to get done, and to get home. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I am not keeping you over-long, and I think the Minister for Education might intervene and give us his view as representing Labour in the Cabinet. Members know that there has been trouble already. The guardian of these interests inside the Cabinet is primarily the Minister for Education. We know he went in there to safeguard those interests. I think he ought to make a pronouncement from the Front Bench telling us that it is all right, that the workmen he protects inside the Cabinet are protected by this change, that it does not affect the Munitions Act, and that we shall not require to repeal the Clause—I think it is Clause 7—in the Munitions Act if we adopt these words.
Whatever we do with this Clause, I think that at all events we ought to try to understand it at the start, and if the House will bear with me for a minute or two I will try to put it as I understand it. The original Act, when introduced into the House as a Bill, had the period of six weeks in it. That period corresponded with the period in the Munitions Act during which a man was penalised in a sense if he could not get employment by an employer under the Ministry of Munitions. It was then pointed out that if the six weeks of the original Act remained a man being out of work after the six weeks might be pressed into the Army on the last day of the sixth week or the first day of the seventh week. To meet that objection the six weeks was extended to eight weeks, and the man was given a fortnight in which to get work in the munitions factory, so that he was only given a fortnight during which he was out of employment. That has given rise to a curious anomaly, because tribunals not only deal with munition workers but a great many other people, butchers, and bakers, and all kinds of people who come and make applications for exemption or postponement, and at first it was not observed that that two months really, gave these people a postponement to which they were not entitled. Therefore, when the tribunal gave them a month's postponement, they very soon found out the right that they had and claimed three months, and got three months. That is the origin of the trouble in which we now find ourselves, and the reason that the Amendment—I was going to say the improvement—is proposed in the Bill. To hear the speech of the hon. Member for Attercliffe (Mr. Anderson) one would think that we were simply altering the time of postponement from two months to two weeks. That is not so at all. The Bill proposes that two weeks should be substituted for two months. That is perfectly true, but it proposes also that unless in the meantime a man has made application for a renewal of certificate, any man who has been employed or is employed in a munitions factory or works of national importance can certainly make an application for renewal in a fortnight. Whether he gets it or not is another matter.
It can be refused the next day.
In the present state of the labour market we all know that no man need be out of work for a fortnight. I want to make an appeal to the right hon. Gentleman on another point which arises on this Clause, and that is that there should be some far better provision made than there is at present for men who are in munition factories, or have just left munition factories, to be retained in civil employment where they can be most usefully employed, instead of being pressed into the Army as they are at present. I do not know who is responsible, but this is only one part of the appalling muddle which has been going on for the last twenty months. What is going on now is this: all over the country there are men employed in munition works or in railway works, who are fitters and drillers and skilled people of that sort, the kind of men whom we have been recalling from the Army in France, and bringing all the way from the west side of Canada to do this kind of work—and, may I inform the House, that those latter men cost about £25 per man to bring over from Canada. These men have been employed up to last week, let us say, at Swindon, and the railway people find that there is no longer need for them in this particular workshop. The sensible thing to be done would be to provide some efficient machinery whereby these men, instead of at once being claimed by the military authorities, should be transferred either to Gretna or Woolwich or Portsmouth, or to one of the new munitions factories of the Government, where engineers and skilled men are wanted. In some engineering establishments they are only running a single shift because they have not enough workpeople to keep their works more fully occupied. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to see that some efficient machinery is set up and some check placed upon the military authorities. I do not blame the military authorities; they are one of the parties at the proceedings of the tribunals all over the country. The military representatives are in each tribunal to look after the interests of the Army, and are not much concerned about munition factories. Their primary object is to see that the Army gets more men. That is their business, and they do it. I have had dozens of cases sent to me by the Amalgamated Society of Engineers showing how men of this class have been taken by the military authorities. As soon as they terminated their employment with machine makers and others they were immediately pounced upon by the military authorities and pressed into the Army. You are not even giving such men the right they have under the existing Act of taking their case before tribunal. It should be made clear that we are not being "bossed" by the military authorities, and that the Government are above the military authorities.
I wish to put this question to the right hon. Gentleman which is puzzling a good many people. I can put it very shortly. The right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has explained very clearly what the effect of the proposed change would be. But how does it affect this class of case, of a man who has applied for what he probably called postponement? He applies not with the idea that he would get temporary exemption enabling him to apply again and again, but temporary postponement, so that he might not be called up for three months, say, for reasons which satisfy the tribunal. The tribunal knows that in any case he gets two months, and gives him possibly not the three months for which he asks, Tout only one month, because it says, quite rightly, that the one month when added to the two months would be fair under the circumstances. In some cases I have known on that basis that a man was only given one day, because there would be the two months in any case. How are those cases to be dealt with? If this proposal In the Bill is only going to apply to future cases I should quite understand it, but I understand that it may operate in respect of postponement granted before the Act was passed. That question has been put to me a good many times. I cannot answer it myself, and I would very much like to know what the Government says about it. Will the right hon. Gentleman, when he replies, also indicate to the Committee what the views of the Government are as to the further prolongation of this Debate?
I can quite understand the Government's desire to get the Committee stage concluded as soon as may be. Nobody, however, suggests that it can be concluded to-night. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Well, I shall see whether my right hon. Friend suggests it. Certainly he has not done so as yet. It is, at any rate, desirable that we should know what his proposals are. I would suggest that as there are new Clauses and other important matters yet to be considered, we have now reached a stage in the Bill when we might well conclude our discussions at this sitting. I do not think for one moment that my right hon. Friend has it in his mind that we should attempt to finish the Committee stage to-night, and I am sure it would be an improper proceeding to do so in view of the points that still await our consideration.
I wish to appeal to my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board to resist the appeal of the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken, that he should bring the discussion on the Bill to an end at this point and resume it on another day. I would remind the Committee that it is now only ten minutes to two o'clock and that there is plenty of time before us. It is, I need hardly point out, very important— I myself think it is of the highest importance—that we should get this Bill through at the earliest possible moment. May I suggest to hon. Members that while undoubtedly it is a very great hardship that we should be sitting here at this hour to debate a Bill which is necessary in order to get the men required for the Army, there are great numbers of Englishmen in France at this very moment who are probably suffering much greater hardship. I do say, and say with confidence, that if we are to do our duty towards them we shall pass this Bill with as little delay as possible. Other business in the shape of the debate on Ireland is going to intervene to-morrow, and, therefore, if we do not get through the Committee stage to-night some days will elapse before we can bring it to a close. Therefore, I think we should sit all night, if necessary, in order to finish the Committee stage.
Perhaps I may first be allowed to dispose of the point as to the length of our present sitting, and let me say that I have no desire whatever to keep the Committee sitting till an inordinately late hour. I am making, let it be understood, no complaint regarding the character of our discussion to-night. I do not say that there has been any improper or even undue criticism of the Government's proposals. I know that the Bill creates great interest and that it is regarded in some quarters as extremely controversial. But what I do say is that we really must make progress to-night. It is a matter more for the Committee than for the Government, and I think that many hon. Members would like to see us get a good deal more of the Bill before we bring our discussions to a close to-night. I suggest that in the case of the Clause which immediately follows the one now under consideration practically everything that is necessary can be said in a very brief time, and looking at what has yet to be done, I think we might make such substantial progress as to leave us in a position to finish the Bill to-morrow after the Irish debate has been concluded. Therefore, I must ask the Committee to dispose of some more Clauses before we report Progress.
I will come now to the criticisms which have been passed on the Clause. The hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) has raised a question of the application of this Bill to the Munitions Act, under which a period of six weeks is granted. I have discussed this matter with the Minister of Munitions and we have ourselves examined it very carefully. As a result, I think I shall be able to show that the way in which the Clause must work will render any collision between the provisions of the Munitions Act and the provisions of this Bill extremely unlikely — I think, impossible. The hon. Member for Blackfriars has saved me the duty of putting the real effect of the proposal before the Committee, because he gave an exact and accurate description of the working of the Clause. The only criticism which remains unanswered is this. Under the old Act every workman had a statutory right to be covered for a period of two months during which he had to get employment. Now we are told that the tribunal may sit next day and refuse his appeal. May I say that I wish with all my heart that there was a chance of expeditious treatment such as that. Let us suppose that we are dealing with thoroughly genuine cases, such as we know do occur, where men lose their employment. Where they are essential to national industries, and where, clearly, they ought not suddenly to be seized for the Army until they have had a chance of re-employment, I agree that a fortnight would not be ample if it stood alone, but as the hon. Member for Blackfriars hat shown, it does not stand alone—it is only the time for making the application. When I said that the period of time was unlimited I did not use the word in its literal sense, because, of course, the tribunal could put an end to it. Let us see what happens. Given a good case, a man makes an appeal to the local tribunal and it is refused. He then goes to the Appeal Tribunal and he may have the further right to go to the Central Tribunal. Is it conceivable that the statutory two months is going to be materially shortened or varied when you consider that all this procedure is open to the man for his protection at the expiration of two weeks, when all he has to do is to make an application? This provision is asked for in order to protect the skilled workman who, being improperly discharged, might otherwise be seized for the Army, and it is being used to cover a vast number of other workmen such as those described by the right hon. Gentleman.
If it does so operate in the one case, why should it not operate in the other? Why should not a fraudulent person make the same application?
2.0 A.M.
I do not suggest that he cannot. What I say is, this is a question which must be judged mainly by the experience of the tribunals, and I am advised that this will draw a line between the skilled workman and the workman in whose case it is not intended to operate. As my right hon. and learned Friend knows by the exercise of ingenuity, especially legal ingenuity, it is possible to get through any Act of Parliament. I do not pretend that you can draw an Act of Parliament which will be absolutely watertight and not be open to some criticism, but I think this provision fairly accomplishes the purpose we have in view. The hon. Member for Blackfriars raised another question which is really only remotely connected with the one we are now considering. He stated what was true, namely, that a certain number of men have been taken from their usual employment into the Army. The trouble is that when they have been taken by the Army they have to be returned by the Army to the industries in which they are skilled in order that the works which are producing necessary materials can be carried on to the best advantage. In such cases not only is there the trouble of taking them from the works to the Army and training them to become soldiers, but you have afterwards all the trouble and; expense of bringing them back, very likely from abroad, to go on with their skilled industrial work. This is a grave inconvenience which is as much appreciated by the Army Council as it is by the representatives of the workers. I do not think you can stop it by any legislation. We have got provisions in the parent Act which we thought would have stopped it. I think it really has been due to some missing link in the chain and machinery which we have devised for dealing with these questions, and I think the best plan would be, if my right hon. Friend would be good enough, to arrange for a representation to be made to me on the subject by those who are interested. The President of the Board of Education—who, I need hardly say, has been watching this subject all along—and myself would be only too glad to meet those who can put the case more fully before us, and in my view the proper way to meet it would be to have a small Committee who could advise the Conference which is sitting constantly to deal with this question. I am sure that in that way we could provide machinery which would render these unfortunate occurrences, if not impossible, at all events less likely to occur. As to the point raised by my right hon. Friend (Sir John Simon), it was my fault that that was overlooked.
I raised it on the Second Reading.
Yes, it was my fault. I gave instructions this morning to have an Amendment prepared which will cover it, and that can be dealt with on the Report stage.
I confess that the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman makes me more than ever sceptical as to the precise value of this proposal. Either it shortens the period that is allowed under the original Act or it gives a period which will be roughly corresponding to that which is allowed under the existing Act. If the former be true, if it really does secure a shortening of the period allowed under the existing Act, then it encroaches on the safeguards that have been given under that Act, and anybody who recalls the discussion on this question when the original Act was passing through the House knows how deep and widespread was the concern of the Committee as to the possibility of the danger against which we are now protesting. If, on the other hand, under this new provision you give practically the same period, or make possible the same, period as is now allowed, by a different machinery, then I confess I do not see the slightest gain in making the alteration. But, as a matter of fact, is there any real ground for the suggestion made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blackfriars and endorsed by the President of the Local Government Board? They seem to suggest that there is very considerable danger in. the substitution of the words "has made an application for the renewal of his certificate" for the words "unless in the meantime the man has obtained a renewal of his certificate," but I believe that they entirely overlook the fact that in the preceding Clause we have made the application for renewal absolutely dependent on the leave of the tribunal.
That is only in the case of variation.
It may be in all cases according to the wording of the Clause. It may cover every application for renewal, so that you are now claiming as a great danger that you are substituting: certain words which, by the previous Clause, are dependent on the discretion of the tribunal. I must say that I have a very real sense of misgiving about this change. It is a change made in an arrangement arrived at after serious discussion by this House, and it makes one increasingly nervous about the future when we find that an arrangement arrived at after so serious a debate has, within a few weeks, been so lightly turned down.
I am sorry the Government have thought it necessary to introduce a Clause of this kind. I cannot quite accept the specious pleading of my right hon. Friend here (Mr. Barnes) with regard to the meaning of this Clause. If it is not going to shorten the period it is, practically speaking, unnecessary. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider his decision to put this in the Bill. There are claims and claims; there are appeals and appeals. There are genuine claims and bogus claims; I do not know whether it is possible to separate them. If the right, hon. Gentleman insists on putting this Clause in the Bill it will probably lead to industrial trouble. The tribunals will by their decisions invite industrial trouble. Every Member on the Treasury Bench should know the state of affairs in the munition areas at the present time. If they do not it is not because they have not been told about it. I have received letters week after week in connection with the state of affairs in the munition areas. I warned the Munitions Department months before in regard to what was likely to happen on the Clyde. It happened. I warn the Government again now that if they put this Clause in they will have industrial trouble which will a cause a great deal more danger to our cause in the War than allowing the original Clause to stand. I hope the Government will seriously consider their position. Industrial trouble at the present time would be a calamity, not only in this country, but to our Allies, and anyone who puts anything in an Act of Parliament which is likely to cause industrial trouble is not doing a good service to this country.
I think the President of the Local Government Board missed one point which is rather confusing the minds of my hon. Friends behind me. They ask what is the good of the change. I might say to them if they accept the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, what is the fuss about? But, if I might say so with respect, that is not the position. A man has, whatever time it takes, to go through the course. It may be four, five or six weeks. If it goes through the course and to the Central Tribunal it will be two months, and then there will be no difference between the present Bill and the previous measure. But there is one thing that the President of the Local Government Board has failed to realise, and that is that whatever takes place at the last tribunal reached by the man, and the decision given there, the man has two months in addition to whatever time he may be given there. That is the reason for the change in the Act.
Might I suggest to my right hon. Friend that if what he says is correct it would remove altogether my difficulty if we were to make this inapplicable to all those who come under the Munitions Act. That would leave his new proposal applicable to all other cases, and would meet the cases which I think he is entitled to meet. I agree with him thoroughly that that eight weeks in the first Military Service Bill was a mistake in the sense that it applied to everybody after it became an Act, whereas it was only
intended to apply to those under the Munitions Act. If he would say quite frankly that to make it plain in this new Clause that this "two weeks" is to apply to everybody except those who are under the Munitions Act, then you separate the difficulty of the Clause, and remove all fears. May I then ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he would be prepared to consider this question, as he himself agrees that under the Munitions Act there is the six weeks now. If I may also put this as a point of Order, what would be the position supposing this becomes law? We have an existing Act, called the Munitions Act, which gives these men six weeks. Will this Bill, when it becomes an Act, override the power in the Munitions Act? I foresee all kinds of difficulties.
That is a point of law, and not of order.
I am sorry I put it to you, Sir, because it is not your duty to express an opinion on a point of law. Might I then ask the Solicitor-General whether he can make us quite clear on that. Suppose this becomes an Act of Parliament, will the time inside this override the time in the Munitions Act? I think we are entitled to know that as a House. May I, therefore, have answers to these two questions? Will the President of the Local Government Board, seeing that he does not want these two weeks for the Munition workers, exempt the Munition worker from this part, and will the Solicitor-General tell us how the two things would be if this Bill becomes an Act?
I think the two things are quite consistent, because the six weeks are given for one purpose and the two weeks for quite another, and there is not the least discrepancy between the Munitions Act as it stands to-day and this Bill if it becomes law. As regards the other point, my right hon. Friend cannot see his way to accept the proposal.
Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 126; Noes, 13.
I understood, Mr. Whitley, the Teller to say that the numbers were 113?
I have checked the figures, and I find the number to be thirteen.
CLAUSE 6.—(Proof of Offences in Connection with Deserters and Absentees.)
During the continuance of the present war Section one hundred and fifty-three of the Army Act and Section seventeen of the Reserve Forces Act, 1882 (which relate to offences in connection with deserters and absentees), shall have effect as though the following provision were inserted at the end of each of those Sections:—
"For the purposes of this Section a person shall be deemed to have knowledge unless he proves that he had not knowledge and had taken all reasonable steps to obtain the necessary information."
The hon. Member for Somerset has an Amendment on the Paper, but I do not know whether it is a drafting Amendment or not.
It is a matter of very great importance. I beg to move to leave out from the word "though" ["have effect as though"] to the end of Clause, and to insert instead thereof the words
"in paragraphs (2) and (3) of the first-cited Section and in paragraphs ( b ) and ( c ) of Sub-section (1) of the second-cited Section there had been inserted after the word 'knowing' the words 'or having reason to believe.'"
Before I go into this Clause, which, to my mind, is totally unnecessary and very objectionable, I want very respectfully to appeal to the right hon. Gentleman whether it is really necessary to proceed with the Clause.
Certainly.
I would be very glad to hear that this Clause is to be dropped. It is not necessary in the slightest degree, and if it is dropped that will save another Division and a great deal of time. There are a great number of people who are very suspicious about the proceedings of this Bill, and if I were told that the Clause was to be dropped I would not say another word about my Amendment.
This Clause is really essential in the new conditions in which we find ourselves. It is essential that this change should be made because we have passed a good deal of legislation in the course of the last six months, and it is important and only fair that people should be presumed to know for what they are liable.
I am very sorry to have heard that reply from the right hon. Gentleman, because it compels me to state to the Committee what the real facts of the case are. This Clause proposes to alter Clause 153 of the Army Act, and I will therefore take the liberty to read that Clause in order that the Committee may know the extensive and large powers in that Act against any person who harbours deserters. The Clause reads:
"Any person in the United Kingdom or elsewhere by any means whatsoever (1) procures or persuades any soldier to desert or attempts to procure or persuade any soldier to desert, or (2) knowing that a soldier is about to desert aids or assists him in deserting, or (3) knowing any soldier to be a deserter conceals such soldier or aids or assists him in concealing himself, or aids or assists in his rescue."
The Committee will see how comprehensive it is. And the penalty is that such person shall be liable on summary conviction to be imprisoned, with or without hard labour, for a term not exceeding six months. I cannot see what the object is in wishing to enlarge the law. This Clause which we are considering enlarges it in a very important and novel respect. If we pass this Clause the whole of this Clause in the Army Act which I have read will be extended to this question, and it will not fall to the prosecuting party to prove that the person that committed the offence knew that the soldier was a deserter: the onus would be on the man to prove his innocence. Now, the Solicitor-General and every Member of this House, whether a lawyer or not, knows it is a totally new principle in English law to assume that a man is guilty and put on him the burden of proving his innocence. That is a new principle, and a totally wrong and unjust principle. It is, moreover, absolutely against the whole principle of English law, and what is it all for? It is for the purpose of bringing one or two possible aiders of deserters to justice. I do not think the House of Commons at this time of night by legislation of this kind, legislation by reference, should subvert one of the fundamental principles of English law. To do so will be a crying shame, and unworthy of our traditions. It is a thing which I shall protest against, and I shall not hesitate, even if I am alone in the Lobby, to go to a Division on it. I totally disagree with the President of the Local Government Board when he says it is absolutely necessary. I do not really believe that the right hon. Gentleman understands the seriousness of the proposal or the subversive character of the principle involved. I am surprised that such a good Englishman and such a fair-minded man as the right hon. Gentleman should put forward such a proposal. I do most earnestly ask that, as I want to continue to have the greatest possible respect and consideration for the right hon. Gentleman, he will now reconsider the matter while the Debate is going on, and either withdraw or, at any rate, modify the Clause.
I think my hon. Friend opposite has made a very powerful plea, and I cannot believe that the House of Commons, without free discussion, will allow a Clause of this sort to pass into law. I am certain that no one wishes people who are guilty to get off, but, at the same time, we do not wish to pass a Clause which will allow an innocent man to suffer unjustly. It is, I submit, a bad principle that we should lay on a man who may be poor, and may have no experience at all in such matters, the onus of proving his own innocence. It is for the prosecution to prove him guilty, and I contend that it is altogether wrong that the Committee should allow these extraordinary precautions to be taken against a small body of men, many of whom may be entirely innocent. We are, I say, fairly entitled to complain of the way in which this Bill, affecting the liberties of so many people, is being rushed through the House of Commons. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I have certainly not delayed the discussion. I have been shouted down once, and that was the first time I had addressed the Committee this evening. We are, I repeat, entitled to complain when an attempt is made to rush through a Bill of this sort at half-past two in the morning when it curtails the freedom of action of such great numbers of our fellow-citizens. I am very much disappointed that a Bill, which we were told was necessary to add 200,000 men to the Army, should prove in the result to be a measure to increase the military spirit in the country and to screw up the penalties. I really hope, therefore, that the Government will think a little before they compel us to pass a Clause of this sort at an hour when clear and careful deliberation is out of the question.
I must plead guilty myself to having misconceived the Amendment, which is a direct negative of the Clause. The matter, therefore, can only be dealt on the Clause itself.
With great respect, Sir, I submit that it really does not negative the Clause at all.
The speeches of hon. Members have been directed to nothing but negativing the Clause. I think we had better take what has been said on the Clause.
If the Amendment were accepted and then the Clause were adopted there would be some concession, because it would obviate a principle of British law, which I have maintained should be preserved, being thrown to the wind. I would like to make an appeal in that way if I may do so.
I think there are others who would wish to speak on the Clause, and it is better that they should have a proper opportunity to do so.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move, to leave out from the word "knowledge" ["unless he proves that he had not knowledge "] to the end of the Clause.
The adoption of my Amendment would mean that we omit the question of a man having to prove that he took all reasonable steps to obtain the necessary information. It seems to me, first of all, that the last part of the Clause is unnecessary and it also appears to me that the words are altogether too vague. I am quite sure no lawyer would be able to say how a man could prove that he had taken all reasonable steps to obtain the necessary information. If it is going to be a point of law, the authorities ought to be able to show that the man did not take all reasonable steps. In the earlier part of the Clause it is provided that a man shall prove that he did not have knowledge, that he did not know what was involved; and, surely, If he does that he is doing quite sufficient without having to prove at the same time that he took all reasonable steps to obtain information. I think the Amendment, as I move it, improves the Clause very much indeed, and I hope the Government will agree to it.
I do hope very much that the Government will see their way to make this change. My hon. Friend opposite was quite right when he said just now that the first part of this change in the law was, to say the least, very unusual, but I think he went too far when he implied that there were not sometimes cases where the burden of proof is thrown on the accused. Those who are familiar with these matters will be aware that you may have cases where that is perfectly proper, but here you are going a great deal further when you say in your Clause, "a person shall be deemed to have knowledge unless he proves that he had not knowledge and had taken all reasonable steps to obtain the necessary information." If a woman has taken in a person for a night's lodging, are you going to say that not only shall she be compelled to go into the box and give evidence that she had no knowledge, but that you are going to have her convicted unless she proceeds to prove that she has taken all reasonable steps to obtain information? Do you mean to say that as part of those remarkable steps she must have sent round to the police and to the barracks? I do not think that the military strength of this country can possibly depend for a single moment upon innovations like that. While I will, though unwillingly, accept for my own part the shifting of the burden of proof in the first part of the Clause, I am bound to say that I do hope that we shall not go in for the second part, which opens a door for people who want to say that you are using this Bill for the purpose of starting a new system of ideas. Therefore I hope that the Solicitor-General, who knows from a practical point of view how very unusual these words are, will promise that they shall be omitted now and an opportunity be afforded later of considering whether that will not leave the measure in a more satisfactory form than it is at present with the words in.
I have no complaint to make about the way in which the Amendment has been moved and supported, and I must say that some of the arguments which have been used were calculated to impress those who listened to them. There are many cases in which it is necessary to shift the burden of proof, because it is so difficult for a person asserting knowledge to prove it. Therefore, I think the first part of the Section should be retained. But, with regard to the words which are now in question, I think the Committee will understand what the object was in proposing them. It is quite possible for a man to shut his eyes, having the best means of ascertaining the facts to neglect to use those means, to wilfully shut his eyes to the facts. Of course, the object of the proposal was to avoid anything of that kind. At the same time, I admit there is a great deal to be said against the proposal in the form which it takes in the Bill, and I think it will best meet the wishes of the Committee if we do omit these words. It may be a matter of importance, and if we think fit we shall bring up new words.
I am very glad indeed to hear my hon. and learned Friend say that, but I may point out that it is creating a new offence if you put these words in the Bill. The offence is doing a thing knowingly.
I think the Solicitor-General has met us very reasonably.
May I point out that there is an exact parallel for these words in relation to the Lunacy Act, where almost precisely the same offence may be committed and where the offence of receiving a lunatic in an unlicensed house, even though based on reasonable grounds, is still an offence, and I think you could justify the whole of the Section under that particular Act, where the offence is receiving persons in respect of whom the person who received them had reasonable grounds to believe they were all right. Almost the exact words are used in the Act I refer to, and I think the whole of the Section could be justified on that ground. I think the late Home Secretary over-stated the case when he said there was no parallel. I think there is a parallel and a precedent, and perhaps the Solicitor-General might care to consider it in that light.
Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put and negatived.
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 7.—(Duty to Produce Certificate of Exemption or to Give Particulars.)
Every man who holds a certificate of exemption granted under the principal Act shall, if required by a constable or by any person who has authority for the purpose from the Army Council, produce his, certificate or give particulars as to the authority by which the certificate was granted, and the grounds on which it was-granted.
If any man fails to comply with this provision, or gives particulars which are-false in any material respect, he shall in respect of each offence be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds, or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months.
I beg to move to leave-out the words, "any person who has authority for the purpose from the Army Council," and to insert instead thereof the words, "the Army Council in writing.' Surely we have not reached this stage yet in this country that everybody is to be liable to be stopped by a policeman in the street, and asked if he has got his proper certificate. If the Army Council wants this man, why cannot they write to him and give him written notice in black and white that such-and-such a thing is due? I think you are going to help to make your own Bill unacceptable if you are going to give power to a policeman to stop pedestrians in the street. I think we ought to adopt some arrangement which "would avoid this undignified method of procedure.
I am afraid I cannot accept this Amendment, because it would make the new provision absolutely worthless if this step was only to be taken after the Army Council gave authority in writing. I think the fears of my hon. Friend are quite groundless. There is no likelihood of the police stopping people universally, either in Piccadilly or anywhere else. The fact is that there are some places in the country where a considerable number of men are found who everybody believes are eligible for service. How the Army Council will get at them I do not know, because-they move from place to place, but we are assured that if it were only possible to demand from them the certificate they claim to have we should very soon reduce the number. The effect of this Clause would really, I think, be more moral than material.
I should like to know how this method is going to deal with excepted persons. There are a very large number of persons who are excepted from the Act and who are of military age, and if the police challenge them suddenly they have no means of producing a certificate. They will have no certificate to produce, because they are excepted, and they would be in an extremely awkward position. Many of these people are people who might be liable to be seriously annoyed in this way.
May I point out that this Clause only applies to a man who has a certificate of exemption and not to a man who is excepted?
Yes; but in practice I want to know how the police are to know that a man is excepted. If the police are going to watering places, or wherever these people are supposed to congregate, they may drop upon a large number of excepted persons.
Is it an insult to be asked to produce your gun licence? I have been asked for it.
But these people have no certificates.
I was once asked for my gun licence.
I think the President of the Local Government Board has quite unwittingly put his finger on the weak point of this proposal. In the case of an excise or gun licence he is stopped and asked to produce it because the authority responsible for the administration of the law is aware, by their records, that he should have a licence, but in this case the Government are proposing machinery for placing on the man himself a responsibility which properly attaches to the State. If the State is imposing liabilities upon a man, it is the State's duty to fine that man and take full responsibility for his case. I entirely dissent from this idea of trying to set up a system of compulsion to get in what is, by the admission of the Government, a very small number of men, and that you should adopt an inquisitorial system in every form, and every direction. I think this whole Clause is a perfectly ridiculous Clause, and one quite unworthy of inclusion in a Bill of this kind.
On a point of Order, Sir. I wished to divide on this Amendment.
I collected the voices, and distinctly heard the hon. Gentleman say "Aye."
I wish to move the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Holt)—to leave out the words "has authority" ["any person who has authority"], and to insert instead thereof "produces to him authority in writing."
Let me put a fresh point to show that I am not moving this to waste time. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]. I do not know why the Solicitor-General is cheering. He has only been here three minutes. I do not know whether he was stopped by any authority on the road and asked to produce anything to show that he was Solicitor-General before he could secure admission to this Palace of Truth. Here we are to be stopped by any police man on the street anywhere, and to be asked to show that we have this certificate. We have had in the legislation that has gone through this House a great many proposals, with which the Home Secretary is quite familiar, in which examination has been made by police authorities of certain promotion. On the question of entering clubs, look at the hubbub which takes place if you suggest an ordinary policeman, has the authority to go into a club. Every body insists that he ought to be an in spector and a man in the force with some authority. I put the point seriously, that if the House is going to put this power in the hands of the police it ought to be confined to some person in the police force who has more authority than the ordinary constable. The ordinary constable is used for all kinds of occupations, and however essential a man he may be—
On a point of Order, Sir. I do not think the hon. Member is speaking to his own Amendment. It does not propose to qualify the right of any constable.
I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon. He is perfectly correct, and I will confine myself to the Amendment, which is that he "produces to him authority in writing," that is, from the Army Council, that he is a man who is entitled to do this. "We have a lot of special constables just now put on for special purposes. They may not be given that power, but they are policemen, and as the Clause reads any man with any authority in the force could do this. Surely it ought to be done by responsible people. That is my point, and I will not elaborate it more than to say that the responsibility ought to be thrown on the individual in a much more vivid fashion than that in which it is going to be done under this Clause.
I hope this Amendment will not be pressed. The effect of the Clause is that the constable may make this request without any written or any express authority at all, and to suggest that the authorisation must be a written authority seems to me a little absurd. Why should an officer who has general powers from the military authorities to ask for the production of this certificate be required to produce a written authority in every particular case when asking a man for his certificate? He ought to be able to act on the information he has for the moment, without obtaining written authority.
May I ask what about the ordinary citizen who has no certificate and knows nothing about it? He is told, "You are apparently a man of military age"—perhaps he is a man not ordinarily resident in this country—an Australian walking in the street who is stopped by a policeman who demands his certificate of exemption. He says, "I have not one." What happens?
The policeman goes away, and attends to his other business. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] This Clause only applies to the man who has a certificate of exemption, and if a man is asked to produce the certificate, and he has not one, all he has to say is, "I have not one."
Do I understand that the suspected wrongdoer gets quit of any responsibility by saying, "I have not one "?
Certainly not. The hon. Gentleman put a case of a man with no certificate. He has only to say, "I have no certificate." If it turns out that he is saying what is not true, if he has a certificate and has not for the time produced it, he can, under this Clause, be made liable to penalties.
Will the right hon. Gentleman clear up this point? He says there is no need for a constable or an officer to have authority in writing. I can understand that, because his uniform would show that he had the proper authority. But what is to prevent a man without authority going up to another man and demanding that he should produce his certificate? What is there to show that he has that authority unless he has it in writing. There is nothing to prevent a man demanding a certificate from somebody else and saying he has that authority. Surely there should be some proof that he has it, otherwise you would have a great number of amateur persons doing this.
The right hon. Gentleman, when speaking of written authority, said it would be absurd to require the persons authorised by the Army Council to have a special written authority in each case. It has not been proposed that he should have written authority in each separate case, but that he should produce some general authority showing that he was some person authorised by the Army Council to make the request. The Solicitor General referred to the case of an officer, but under the Clause as it stands every officer and soldier might be a person appointed by the Army Council to do this business, and he produces no authority whatever. Is it contemplated not to give the person appointed by the Army Council some written authority showing that they are authorised?
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move in the second paragraph to leave out the words "in respect of each offence" ["he shall in respect of each offence be liable"].
3.0 A.M.
I do not see why there should be this piling up of penalties in a case like this. A poor man is liable to £20 fine or three months' imprisonment for an offence. I think that is quite enough, and a man might make two slight slips that are called offences in the course of a quarter of an hour. I do not think he should be liable to such a heavy penalty for each of them, and I beg to move this Amendment, which would do away with that piling up of offences of this trivial kind.
I am afraid we cannot accept this Amendment. Two breaches of the Act, even at short intervals, ought to be liable to penalties.
All right, Sir, I withdraw. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move to leave out the words "or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months" ["a fine not exceeding £20, or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months"].
This is a very important matter. Here the proposal is that an offender should on summary conviction be liable to a penalty not exceeding £20 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months. I think the drafting of this Clause is rather unusual. Under the Summary Jurisdiction Act for a fine of £20 the alternative punishment is two months' imprisonment. Why is that well-recognised scale of £20 or two months altered here into £20 or three months' imprisonment? That is piling up penalties, and there is no reason for departing from a well-known principle of the Summary Jurisdiction Act. I venture to think that this departure is due to the draughtsman having been hurried. We see the results of that in almost, every line of the Bill. That is the first point I raise on my Amendment—why three months? The second point is this: Is it intended that the imprisonment should be in default of payment of the fine? If it is in default of payment, then there is no necessity to put this in at all. It is not clear whether the addition of these words "or imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months "mean that the imprisonment is to be imposed at the will of the magistrate or whether they indicate an alternative if a fine is imposed, and not paid, and there are no effects which can be distrained upon. I am told by competent authorities that that is not clear on the drafting. I therefore suggest that the words at the end of this Clause should be left out, and that we should conclude the Clause with the words, "a fine not exceeding £20." That would leave the alternative to imprisonment for two months and do away with the uncertainty as to whether the imprisonment is to be an alternative. I hope my Amendment will be adopted, because it will then put the scale of punishment on the same basis as under the Summary Jurisdiction Act.
I think my hon. Friend is rather confusing two things. There is under the Summary Jurisdiction Act, as he indicated, a scale which provides that in default of payment of the fine a certain term of imprisonment may be imposed. That is one form of alternative. That is not what is intended here. The intention here is to give the magistrates the option. If they think it is a mild offence, they will no doubt impose a fine, perhaps a small fine. But the offence may be a serious one, and in such a Case the intention is to give them an opportunity of imposing imprisonment, not as an alternative, but as an original and substantive penalty. We purposely take three months months as a maximum penalty in serious cases. I think, therefore, the observations of my hon. Friend do not really apply, and I hope we may not expend much time on this matter.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move at the end of the Clause to add a new Subsection—
"(2) If any person alters or tampers with a certificate of exemption granted under the principal Act, or personates or falsely represents himself to be a person to whom such a certificate has been granted, or allows any other person to have possession of any such certificate issued for his use alone, he shall be liable, on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, with or without hard labour."
I do not want to make a speech on this proposed Sub-section, but submit it to the President of the Local Government Board. There is a good deal of handing over of these certificates from man to man, and a considerable amount of personation. I submit that the Military Service legislation should be brought into analogy with the Muitions Act in this respect.
I think there is a good deal to be said for this proposal which corresponds to others of a similar character, and, as we think it would be an improvement to the Bill, we accept it.
I am sorry my right hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Griffith) did not explain this matter. I invite him to make a short speech, telling us on what evidence he suggests this further addition to these most restrictive proposals. Has there been any cases in the Courts of tampering with these certificates? I have noticed very few in the newspapers, and I do not know whether this state of affairs exists. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House whether it is really so and requires to be dealt with? It is a remarkable thing for the Solicitor General to get up at once and say that the Government will accept this Amendment. When suggestions come from somebody in favour of the Bill they are accepted, but if they come from somebody opposed to the Bill, then there are always strong arguments against their acceptance. The right hon. Gentleman really ought to tell the House whether, of his own knowledge, this proposal is absolutely necessary. I believe so much in him and have such a respect for him, that I would agree to let it through, if he tells us that of his own knowledge he knows that this practice obtains.
I have an Amendment on the Paper to the Amendment of my right hon. Friend, and I wish to ask him why he is seeking to make this offence an indictable offence? If you punish it with six months' imprisonment, you make it an offence which might be an indictable offence. I do not see that there is any necessity for that. I hope that point will be considered.
I only rise to ask the right hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment what is the exact force on the words "or allows any other person to have possession of any such certificate issued for his use alone." It seems to preclude a man depositing the certificate with any person even for safe 'custody, and I can hardly think that is intended by the Mover of the Amendment.
I hope that we may have that point considered carefully, because, as the Committee well knows, occasionally certificates are taken away from people without their being willing parties. I should have thought that people might certainly leave certificates in safe custody when they did so without the slightest intention of the certificates being misused, and there ought to be some safeguard provided to protect those who bonâ fide give up a certificate for the purpose of placing it in safe custody.
I think that is a fair point to consider, and we will examine into it between now and the Report stage. The only intention is to proceed against the person who allows a certificate to be improperly used.
I beg to move to leave out the Clause, and I do so in order that we may have a Division. I object very strongly to giving any ordinary police constable the power to stop any citizen in the street or any other public place and demand from him this certificate.
I hope in any case that before this Clause comes up in the House again the Government will consider whether they are devising in the Clause the best and most suitable machinery for the purpose they have in view. I am sure that what is needed is that we should have the maximum of effciency with the minimum of annoyance, and it does seem to me that under this proposal the subject may be rendered liable to a good deal of annoyance. I gather that when a man has not a certificate and says so to the police-he is, according to the Solicitor-General, straightway sent about his business. Surely the man who has not a certificate-and ought to have one is a man about whom the policeman desires to make some-inquiry. Then I think it is also necessary, apart from the policeman, that those who make this demand should have some sign to exhibit of their authority to aft in the matter. The President of the Local Government Board said that all this was on a par with demanding the-production of a gun licence. Sometimes, he told us, his gun licence is demanded from him, and if it is, he always accedes to the request very cheerfully. I should like to recall to the recollection of the right hon. Gentleman an incident which he himself has probably long since forgotten. The first time the hon. Member for Blackburn, who was then an excise officer, met the President of the Local Government Board was when the-right hon. Gentleman was one of a shooting party in which there were a number-of guns. The Member for Blackburn demanded to see the gun licences of the-members of the party, and the only one who had a gun licence was the President of the Local Government Board. So far from being cheerful about the matter the President of the Local Government Board got rather angry with the Member for Blackburn, and threatened to report him to his superior officers. Despite that fact the President's friends were fined and' the Member for Blackburn was complimented for standing up in that way.
Perhaps I may be allowed to explain that what annoyed me was that the hon. Member for Blackburn on that occasion walked through the best bit of covert on the shooting.
CLAUSE 8.—(Provision as to Notices, etc.)
Notices served for the purposes of the principal Act or this Act shall not be deemed to be invalid on the ground only that they were served before the Act came into operation or before the man in respect of whom they are served became a member of the reserve.
There are two Amendments to this Clause in the name of the hon. Member for North Somerset, but I think they are quite unnecessary, as they do not make any difference to the proposal.
Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
This looks an innocent little Clause, and I recognise that it is urgent. The necessity for it arises, of course, because under the first Military Service Act the War Office—no doubt through failing to take the advice of the Law Officers—issued the bellow Form before the proper date. That was noticed by some of us. It is perfectly right that mistakes should be cured, and I am glad to think that nobody has ever taken? objection prominently to what happened. That the mistake should be rectified is, as I say, quite right, but it is a very different thing that the War Office should commit the same irregularity again under the new Bill. 'To say that notices served for the purposes of the principal Act shall not be deemed to be invalid on the ground that they were served before the Act came into operation is simply saying that what has been done should be accepted as right, but it is, I submit, a very strong reason why it should not be done in reference to the new Act, because it is not until the appointed day comes that a man knows whether he is going to be included in the new compulsory levy. A great many people misunderstood the terms of notice on the last occasion, and thought that because they had received such a notice they had lost any right of appeal. I do not see that we can refuse the desire of the Government to put the Clause in now, but I would ask the Solicitor-General to consider whether it is desirable that, so far as the present Bill is concerned, power should be given to serve notices at an illegally early date, when nothing results from it but confusion and misunderstanding.
What we desire is to give the man as long a notice as possible.
May I point out, with regard to that, that notices are now given in a very unsatisfactory way. So badly are they given that I had a case brought to my notice in which the man received a notice requiring him to join the Colours after he had been already arrested, and sent to gaol. I think, therefore, that it is very desirable that we should not give these additional powers.
CLAUSE 9.—(Transfer to Reserve under Special Circumstances.)
The Army Council may make arrange ments, to take effect during the continuance of the present War, for the transfer to the Reserve of any member of the Regular Forces or for the temporary demobilisation of any member of the Territorial Force, notwithstanding anything in any Act or in the terms of his enlistment, in cases where the transfer or demobilisation appears expedient in the general interests of the country and the Army Council are satisfied that it can be effected under conditions which will render the man transferred or demobilised immediately available for service in the case of military necessity.
Before moving my Amendment I really would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman not to go on with this discussion and break further ground now that we have gone so far. I hope the Government will consider whether it cannot stand over until to morrow. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"]
I must at all events get Clause 9—[HON. MEMBERS: "Go on!"]— but I propose on the understanding that we finish to-morrow to report Progress, after we get to Clause 9, and for this reason: Clause 11 is one which deals with the Territorial Force—I am not quite strictly in order, but I think it is convenient that I should say this now—and it is one which has raised a great deal of feeling in the country, a good deal of opposition, and in reference to which there is a good deal to be said. I do not think it desirable, if we can avoid it, to debate that at an hour of the morning when it would be difficult to secure circulation for what is said in reference to the Clause, while the Government might be open to the charge that a case which closely affects a very large number of persons had been taken at a time when opinion could not be fairly heard. I should like to move to report Progress after we have passed Clause 9— on the understanding—
You would only have trouble on Report.
That may be, but we are the Government, not my hon. Friend, and the best way to deal with the Government is not to threaten it. It is the very worst policy that can be adopted.
Then do not threaten us.
I am threatening nobody. From the beginning to the end I have done my best to facilitate proceedings, and I have threatened nobody. The hon. Gentleman threatens me that if I persist in my determination to go to the end of Clause 9 it would come up further on Report. That is for the Members of the House to say, whether they will stay long on Report. I am bound, on behalf of the Government, to take Clause 9 tonight, and Clause 11 to-morrow. This Bill must be passed without delay, because the Army Council need it in order to get the men. If we get Clause 10 and Clause 11 to-morrow in reasonable time there is no reason why discussion should not be finished on the Bill so as to get the last stages in the first days of next week. With regard to Clause 9, I am quite confident that it will be easy to explain to the Committee that the Clause is not open to the objections that some people have anticipated, and I shall ask them to be good enough to consider it now, and if they will conclude that Clause I shall be perfectly willing to move to report Progress.
May I make an appeal and a suggestion? If we could get as far as the Question, "That Clause 9 stand part of the Bill," and there could be a brief discussion next day, it would be a great advantage. There is no doubt that the Clause excites a great deal of grave fear. It is considered that it does involve a danger of what is called industrial conscription, and it is very desirable, therefore, that it should not be discussed in the small hours of the morning. If there was an opportunity for discussion, not on particular Amendments, but on the general question that the Clause stand part of the Bill, there would be no opportunity for obstructive Amendments, but the general question could be briefly debated, in order that the subject could be adequately brought before the House and the country.
There is no question at the moment before the House.
I beg to move, after the word "may" ["The Army Council may make arrangements"], to insert the words "subject to Regulations which shall protect an employed person against any enforced service of a private employer or any other form of industrial conscription."
I am really sorry we should tackle this matter at this hour of the morning, when we are really not able to bring very fresh minds to bear upon it, and when large numbers of Members are absent. There is a great deal of interest in Clause 9, and some apprehension as to what is really intended. It would appear under this Section that the Army Council are to take powers to transfer to the Reserve any member of the Regular Forces or for temporarily demobilisation of any member of the Territorial Force, and that these men, who shall be transferred to the Reserve shall be at any time immediately available for service in case of military necessity. I take it that that includes numbers of skilled workmen, and the like, taken out of the Army and sent back to the workshop because for the time being they can perform better service there than in the Army. All that I am trying to guard against in this Amendment is that if these men are going back to the workshop, and they are placed under military law to this extent, that they can be called up at any time, they should not run the risk in any sense of being subject to any form of industrial compulsion, apart from their military discipline when they are actually with the Colours. I think it is a matter, once more, about which Members will very generally agree, that no part of this legislation should be used for the power of enabling private employers to take advantage of it in any sense or for any purpose other than that for which the law is really intended.
I do not believe you can entirely eliminate the danger of industrial compulsion, under conditions such as these, by any form of words or by any drafting in a Bill, but I do think a very valuable moral effect would be secured if strong, clear, regulations were to be issued by the President of the Local Government Board, making it clear that although these men are going back from the Army to the workshop, and although they may be called up at any moment from the workshop back into the Army again, while they are in the workshop there can be no question of their being being subjected to any forced service for the interest of any employer, and that they are not to be subject to any form of industrial conscription. I think it would be a very valuable thing to have clear regulations and instructions along these lines. The President of the Local Government Board will tell me in a moment that that is not necessary; that there is no such fear and no such danger. I can assure him that that fear is lodged in the minds of many workpeople, and the more that can be done to guard against that the better. I believe no harm can be done by the issue of such regulations, and by making it clear that this Bill is for purely military purposes, and that there is no question of industrial conscription, so far as it can be guarded against.
I really did not appreciate until this evening that there had been such misunderstanding about this Clause as there appears to have been in some parts of the country. I have been told that it has really been interpreted as opening out a new field of industrial compulsion. It is rather curious that this should be so, because as a matter of fact this Clause offers the only real way by which you can use soldiers in industrial employment without any form of industrial compulsion. Let me just tell the Committee just what is meant. At present if a man, such as the man we were referring to in a previous Debate, has been enlisted in the Army and is required for industrial occupation here, such as the man to whom the hon. Gentleman referred, there is no choice between discharging him from the Army altogether and lending him for employment. So long as they are lent for employment they must be, if necessary, liable to military discipline. They are soldiers and nothing can alter the fact that if they are guilty of certain crimes and misdemeanours they become liable to military law and nothing can prevent it. But if you have power to pass them to a Reserve, during the time they are with the Reserve they are absolutely free from military control, just as free as they were before they joined the Army, or as they would be after they left it, and all the military liability they have is to be called to the Colours when the Army Council want them. I am not prepared to accept this Amendment. I am quite prepared to make Regulations, if that is desirable. What I am prepared to do, although it is really not necessary, but in order that there shall be no mistake that the Act of Parliament shall bear upon its face for all who read it to realise, I am prepared to accept the Amendment put down in the names of the hon. Members for Stockport (Mr. Wardle), Halifax (Mr. Parker), and Blackfriars (Mr. Barnes)—
"Provided that during such period of demobilisation the man shall not be subject to military discipline."
That is not necessary, but I am prepared to put those words in to make it clear that the object of this proposal is to establish a Reserve, so that men enlisted in the Army but not required can be returned to industrial employment as free labourers, independent of any military control so long as they are in that employment. The is our intention, and that is why the Clause is here.
I said a moment ago that the Government were anxious that the Committee should pass Clause 9 before we separate this evening. I am inclined to reconsider that statement for this reason. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO, no!"] Perhaps my hon. Friends who have been good enough to stay up to support us during all this time, and who would like, naturally, to see the fullest results from their action, will let me give my reason. I think they will appreciate the force of it, because it is very well known that at this hour of the morning our proceedings are not reported in the newspapers as fully as proceedings that take place earlier in the evening. Unfortunately, the statement that this Clause means industrial compulsion in its most dark form has, I am informed—I did not know it until this evening—been widely circulated in certain newspapers, and in some important industrial centres in the country. If that is the case, I think it is of first importance that the statement I have made on behalf of the Government, and which, with the leave of the Committee, I will repeat to-morrow rather more fully, should be made at a time when it can go forth to the public as the true story. It is for this reason that I would ask the Committee to accept the position. Before we separate I must dispose of the Amendment, and then all that would remain to-morrow would be the question that the Clause should stand part of the Bill, upon which I should be prepared to make a rather fuller detailed statement.
On that point—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"]—I shall not keep the House long. I want the right hon. Gentleman's statement to be made in public, and I would remind him that tomorrow we start with the Irish Debate. Can any member of the Cabinet say whether the Irish Debate will be stopped in time for the right hon. Gentleman to make his statement in time for it to get into the papers? Everybody knows that a speech made from the Front Bench, if not made before eight o'clock, does not get into the papers all over the country.
We can only do our best.
We want to do more than our best. I want to finish the Bill. My first train is at 6.30 a.m., and I want to stop and finish the Bill. If we are not going to finish it, then the right hon. Gentleman ought to have an opportunity tomorrow to make his statement when it will be published, because if it is not, what is the use of rising now in order to take the off-chance of the right hon. Gentleman being able to make his statement? Let us go on.
I understand the President of the Local Government Board is willing, if it is necessary, that regulations should be issued making quite clear what the position is.
If that is the best way. I think there is another and a better way.
In view of that I think that would be a very good way, and I am quite ready to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to add the words "Provided that during such period of demobilisation the man shall not be subject to military discipline."
I only accept this Amendment on the understanding that the words are in order. I am not sure about the word "demobilisation" as to whether it is the right phrase. If they are accepted—
I want to suggest that the words "transferred or demobilised" ought to be put in.
Would this also include the question of the ordinary rates of pay for the men who are subject to be called up at any time?
I take it that while the men are employed, as the right hon. Gentleman says they would be, apart from military control, they would get the various rates of wages fixed by the trade unions. [Mr. LONG: Hear, hear!] I was going to make a suggestion. I do not want different treatment for Army men from that of Territorials.
Amendment agreed to.
Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."—[ Mr. Long. ]
Whereupon, Motion made and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again"—[ Mr. Long ]— put, and agred to.
Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow (Thursday).
SUMMER TIME BILL.
Read a second time, and Committed to a Committee of the Whole House for tomorrow (Thursday).—[ Mr. Russell Rea. ]
The other Orders were read, and postponed.
It being after Half-past Eleven of the clock on Wednesday evening, Mr. Deputy-Speaker adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Nineteen Minutes before Four o'clock a.m. Thursday, 11th May, 1916.