House of Commons
Thursday, May 25, 1916
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Provisional Order Bills (No Standing Orders applicable),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, namely:—
Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders Bill.
Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time upon Monday next.
North British Railway Bill (Substituted Bill),
Read the third time, and passed.
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS AND CHARGES ACT, 1891.
Copy presented of Treasury Minute, dated 5th February, 1916, directing that Fees, etc., payable to the Registry of Friendly Societies shall be applied as Appropriations in Aid of the Vote for that Department [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
EAST INDIA (MILITARY).
Copy presented of Papers relating to Major-General C. V. F. Townshend's appreciation of the position after the battle of Kut-el-Amara [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES.
Copy presented of Annual Report of the Chief Veterinary Officer for the year 1915 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
WAR.
INVALID PRISONERS (SWISS AGREEMENT).
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when he expects to be able to fulfil his promise to publish and circulate the agreement under which invalid German and British prisoners of war will be sent to Switzerland and also the categories of diseases that will qualify prisoners for this transfer?
We hope to lay before Parliament the correspondence constituting the agreement very shortly.
asked whether the arrangements now arrived at between Great Britain and Germany for the internment in Switzerland of invalid prisoners of war are applicable alike to civilian and military prisoners?
The question of the inclusion of civilians in the arrangement arrived at between Great Britain and Germany for the internment in Switzerland of invalid prisoners of war not entitled to repatriation is under consideration. As my hon. Friend is, no doubt, aware, we already have an agreement with Germany for the repatriation of invalid civilians.
I asked not about repatriation, but as to internment in Switzerland.
Yes, I know, and my reply is that internment in Switzerland of invalid prisoners of war is under consideration.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in France it is already done?
I believe it is under consideration.
BRITISH PRISONERS IN GERMANY.
AMERICAN REPORTS.
asked when the White Paper containing the American Reports of British prisoner camps in Germany will be issued; what reason is assigned for the delay in its publication; and how many Reports have been received since 31st March?
The White Paper in question has, I understand, been issued this afternoon. I am afraid that some delay was inevitable in view of the pressure of work in the printing department. I understand that twenty-one Reports have been received since the 31st March last.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether those Reports will be included in the White Paper?
I would like to inquire about that.
asked what reply has been received in reply to the inquiries made of the German Government as to the rate of exchange governing the issue of pay to officer prisoners in Germany; and, if the reply was unsatisfactory, what further representations have been made to the German Government?
No reply has yet been received from the German Government, and the United States Ambassador has been requested to endeavour to obtain a reply at an early date.
DYE-STUFFS (AMERICAN PURCHASE FROM GERMANY).
asked whether the Government has agreed to allow, or is considering an agreement to allow, the Americans to buy from the Germans 15,000 tons of dye-stuffs, or any less amount; and has the Government made any sort of agreement that dye-stuffs going from Germany to America shall not be stopped by the British Navy?
I would refer the hon. Member to the replies returned on the 23rd instant to the questions asked by the hon. Members for Mid-Armagh and Great Yarmouth.
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the question?
I would refer the hon. Member to the previous replies given as late as two days ago, and if they do not cover the question then I will answer a further question.
BRITISH PRISONERS IN GERMANY.
DISTURBANCES IN IRELAND.
ARRESTS AT CHARLEVILLE.
The following questions stood on the Paper in the name of Mr. W. O'BRIEN: 10 and 77. (1) To ask what is the result of the inquiries as to the arrests of three teachers of the Christian Brothers' schools in Charleville and of two other young men, Joseph and Richard Nagle, who were marched off handcuffed through the town and prevented even from receiving overcoats from their mother; and whether the immediate discharge of these young men will be ordered in deference to the public opinion of a town almost every household in which has contributed a recruit to the Army; and (2) to ask why no information has yet been received from Charleville with respect to the military raid upon that town; have the military authorities refused to offer any explanation; if so, what steps will be taken to enforce the authority of the civil government over Sir John Maxwell; will he say whether, while this question has remained unanswered, the soldiers remain quartered on the inhabitants; whether a constable named Prendergast has represented that he was fired at three times; whether sixteen young man, including one who has two brothers serving in the Army, were in consequence arrested, and discharged on the following morning in the absence of any evidence whatever against them; whether four unimpeachable witnesses have since tendered evidence to the authorities that they saw Prendergast himself fire three shots with a revolver at his cap which he held in his hand; and whether he will comply with the demand of the townspeople for a sworn public investigation into the alleged shooting at Prendergast and the rest of the outrages to which the people of this town have been subjected?
I do not know whether there is any representative of the Chief Secretary who can answer these questions?
This is a military matter, and should be addressed to the War Office.
I am afraid that I have not got the particulars yet.
In my second question I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman has been refused information by the military authorities? Is that so? If it is so, are steps going to be taken by the civil government to enforce their authority?
I am sorry that I have not been able to get the information.
You are only making trouble for yourselves.
TRANSIT OF GOODS TO DUBLIN.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Government, in view of the heavy losses suffered by Dublin traders, will now give better facilities for the transit of goods by rail to Holyhead and thence by sea, as a month has often hitherto been required to get stock through which before the War could be sent in twenty-four hours?
I have communicated with the London and North-Western Railway Company on this matter, and I am sending my hon. and learned Friend a copy of their reply.
ARRESTS.
asked the Prime Minister whether the house of Mr. Mark Wickham, Merchant's Quay, Cork, was entered by the military and police authorities on the 8th instant in search of arms; if the only arms found was a small toy air-gun, the plaything of his little son, which was purchased at a toy shop for 2s. 6d.; whether Mr. Wickham was arrested for having this toy in his possession without a licence; whether he will state the justification for this action; and if he will see that an end will be put to such interference with innocent people, who cannot be charged with any criminal act?
The facts as stated by my honourable Friend seem to warrant the release of Mr. Wickham. I was assured a day or two ago that inquiry was being made, and, if the facts are as stated by my hon. Friend, I think there can be little doubt that Mr. Wickham will be released forthwith.
Thank you.
This is a triumph!
asked the Prime Minister whether an official list of the names and addresses of persons arrested in error in connection with the recent rebellion in Ireland, and since released on ascertaining that they had no connection therewith, will be published; and whether, in addition, a notice expressing regret for their inadvertent arrest will be forwarded to each of them with a view to enabling them to make their position clear to their friends and business connections?
I will arrange for the list asked for in the first part of the question and will consider the suggestion contained in the last part of the question.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether Mr. O'Leary Curtis, of Dublin, is still in prison without charge or trial; if so, where and to what treatment he is subject; and whether this citizen will, without further delay, be either released or given an opportunity of meeting in a Civil Court any charge that can be brought against him?
I understand that Mr. O'Leary Curtis is in prison. I have received some information in connection with this case which I have forwarded to the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief in Ireland. If he had no connection whatever with the rebellion or with the movement which fomented it, he will no doubt shortly be released.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this gentleman's health is in a critical condition?
No, I am not aware of that. My informant, who went to see him yesterday, did not report that.
The following question stood upon the Paper in the name of Mr. HEALY: 73. To ask the Under-Secretary for War whether at 4.40 a.m. on Thursday week twenty armed police broke into the house of Mr. Darrell Figgis, in the Island of Achill, where he was residing with his wife, and, although he assured them when they knocked that no resistance would be offered, they broke the front door with a large stone and smashed the back door with a plank; whether his papers, historical manuscripts, and money were seized, and himself taken to Castlebar Gaol; whether he was imprisoned there from Thursday to Monday, denied letters or visitors, and then removed to Richmond Barracks, where he now is a prisoner, without any charge being made against him; and whether, seeing that since the split in the Volunteers eighteen months ago Mr. Figgis has taken no part in the movement and severed himself at the time by a public declaration from either side, that no Volunteers of any kind were formed in Achill, and that no rising occurred in Mayo, to which county the island belongs, he will state what was the necessity for the manner in which the arrest was carried out, and how long will the military be occupied in obtaining evidence to justify it or, if they have evidence to warrant the same, why is Mr. Figgis not brought to trial?
I have been asked to postpone this question, but I desire to state that simply because I put it down they deported this absolutely innocent man to England, although he had made a formal declaration months ago that he had nothing to do with the Volunteers.
The following questions stood upon the Paper in the name of Mr. FLAVIN: 84. To ask the Under-Secretary for War whether he is aware that Joseph O'Leary, of 11, Tremadoc Road, Clapham, London, who is spending his holidays in Ireland, was arrested on Tuesday, 16th May, in Dublin, and detained since in the Bridewell; whether he will say why Joseph O'Leary was arrested and detained; what charge, if any, has been made against him; whether his release will be ordered immediately; and 85. To ask the Under-Secretary on what grounds James M'Elligott, clerk in the Local Government Board, Dublin, has been arrested and deported to England; whether he is aware that this young man has an unimpeachable character; whether he is aware that James M'Elligott's mother's health is in a precarious condition as a result of her son's arrest and deportation, and that she cannot get any information about her son; and whether his release will be ordered at once?
I have been requested to postpone these questions, but I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman, in connection with the latter, whether he is aware that it has now been postponed for the ninth time at his request, that the man is now five weeks in gaol, that he is absolutely innocent, no charge is preferred against him, he has had no trial and his friends are denied the right to see him, and is it not time for the military authorities and the right hon. Gentleman himself to move in the matter?
I was not aware that the question had been postponed so often. I deeply regret it. I am communicating with the General Officer Commanding in Ireland, and will take care the case is brought to his notice. I may inform the hon. Member that we are getting through 150 cases a day. Yesterday fifty were released.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this young boy's mother is in a very delicate state of health?
How many men are there in gaol, and how long will it take at the rate of 150 a day to get through them?
I should think another ten days.
asked the Under-Secretary, for War whether he is aware of the fact that fifteen natives of Cliffoney, county Sligo, were arrested and taken from their homes by the military without warrant and have now been lodged in a detention prison at Wandsworth; whether any and, if so, what charge has been made against them; whether they are to be put on trial forthwith or else liberated; whether he is aware that these men bear the character of being all of them respectable and law-abiding citizens, and that it is well known to the police and military that they were in no way connected with the recent disturbances in Dublin or anywhere else; and, seeing that such action as the imprisonment and deportation of those men is calculated to exasperate the feelings of the people in the district and bring the law and the Government into contempt, will he say what action he proposes to take?
The procedure announced in the communiqué which has appeared in the Press covers, I think, the points raised by this question. The military authorities are most anxious that persons inadvertently arrested, who have had no connection whatever with the rebellion or with the movement which fomented it should be released forthwith, and printed forms on which release may be claimed and which are framed to facilitate rapid investigation, have been issued to commandants of places of detention. When these forms have been filled in the release of persons concerned will, if the facts justify it, be immediately ordered, and they will be sent back to the place where they were arrested. I think my hon. Friend should advise the fifteen men referred to in the question, to follow the procedure I have indicated.
The following question stood upon the Paper in the name of Mr. T. M. HEALY: 89. To ask the Under-Secretary for War if, out of thirty-five young men arrested in Mitchelstown by the military on 8th May, five are detained, namely, W. Casey, J. Hannigan, D. Roche, and the brothers O'Sullivan; have these men been removed to Cork and then to Dublin in custody, although all arms were surrendered and no incriminating documents or matter were found upon them; are their relatives left without any knowledge of their whereabouts and denied the opportunity of procuring their defence; have any of them been deported to England; if not, are they to be tried, on what charge, and where; and is any opportunity to be afforded them of consulting a solicitor or making a defence?
The right hon. Gentleman has asked me, for the fourth time, to postpone this question. It seems to me it is no use putting questions. It only makes the prisoner a marked man. I will not put the question again.
EXECUTIONS.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in the case of William Pearse, summarily executed in Dublin, not being either a leader or a signatory of the republican proclamation, any evidence was produced differentiating him from those not executed other than his relationship to his executed brother P. H. Pearse?
Yes, Sir, ample evidence of this man's guilt was, of course, produced before the court-martial.
Can the right hon. Gentleman state any evidence but the fact of his relationship to his brother?
SHOOTING PRISONERS.
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the findings of the coroner's jury in Dublin on the death of Patrick Bealan and James Healy, that they had died from hæmorrhage resulting from bullet wounds inflicted by a soldier or soldiers in whose custody they were unarmed and unoffending prisoners, and that the explanation given by the military authorities was very unsatisfactory; what action is to be taken towards those authorities or the men under them; whether the two barrack yards have yet been dug up in search for the bodies of the batch of prisoners which an officer boasted that he and others had potted that morning and that no more would be heard of them; and, if not, whether those yards will be dug up immediately in the presence of some civil witness of repute?
This verdict was given while I was in Ireland, and I had an opportunity of reading the evidence upon which it purported to be founded. No suggestion was made as to the identity of the soldier or soldiers referred to, but the military authorities at once instituted a careful inquiry, which I believe has so far been without result. The answer to the last two parts of the question is in the negative.
Seeing that these men have been killed and that the military inquiry has been without result, will the right hon. Gentleman institute an impartial civil inquiry?
I hope the military inquiry may yet produce results.
COURTS-MARTIAL.
asked the Prime Minister when and in what form the proceedings of the courts-martial in Ireland and the evidence in each case will be made available?
I must refer the hon. Member to the answer given him by my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for War on the 18th May.
The answer referred to was indefinite. Will the Prime Minister inform the House whether or not these matters will be reported and submitted to the House or made available for Members?
My right hon. Friend answered that very question.
No.
GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the dfficulties which have arisen in Ireland, he will consider the advisability of creating forthwith an Irish Parliament and Executive in accordance with the provisions of the Government of Ireland Act, so modified by mutual consent as to be consistent with that wider measure of federal devolution avowedly contemplated by the late Government, similarly entrusting the domestic affairs of England, Scotland, and Wales, respectively, to separate Legislatures, in each case effectively and indisputably reserving the supremacy of the Imperial Parliament, thereby automatically satisfying all reasonable apprehensions entertained by North-East Ulster?
Well, Sir, I am afraid I cannot say more than that we shall not fail to keep in mind all considerations which are relevant to this problem.
TREATMENT OF PRISONERS.
asked the Under-Secretary for War whether the Irish prisoners of war will be allowed to receive tobacco, newspapers, and clean underclothing; if he will take the necessary steps to have instructions issued to that effect; if he is aware that they are in solitary confinement; if he will state whether solitary confinement is given to all German prisoners interned in Great Britain or British prisoners interned in Germany; if he will cause this punishment to be removed by allowing the Irish prisoners of war to converse at frequent intervals; and if he will make arrangements for each to attend their own church services on Sundays and other days recognised by the Church?
My hon. Friend will no doubt be aware that I stated yesterday that I would have the matter of tobacco and cigarettes considered, but I have since been reminded that the published regulations state that parcels may be sent to prisoners either by post or by hand. I know of no reason for supposing that clean underclothing would not be welcomed by those in charge of the prisoners. My right hon. Friend stated yesterday that the prisoners, except in a very few cases, are allowed intercourse with one another, and I understand that they are also allowed the ordinary facilities extended to prisoners of war, which would include access to religious ministrations.
BRITISH TRADE POLICY.
asked if any of the Overseas Dominions have urged upon him the importance to the Dominions of an early declaration of the trade policy of the British Government after the conclusion of the War; and, if so, can he say what reply has been given?
No such representations have been made to me officially, but the whole subject is being carefully considered.
asked if the Commonwealth of Australia has communicated with his Department since the War began on the subject of German influence in British trade; if so, can he say what support he has offered the Commonwealth in their determination to eradicate such influence from the country under their jurisdiction; and can he lay the correspondence upon the Table of the House?
I have been in constant communication with the Government of the Commonwealth of Australia on the subject of Australian metal contracts and other matters, and have been and am prepared to assist them in every way in my power. I do not propose to lay any Papers on the subject.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if his attention has been called to the resolution passed by the Australian Chamber of Commerce advocating a preferential trading policy with the Dominions and our Allies; and whether the Government proposes to take any action in the matter with a view to such a policy being adopted before the termination of the War?
I have seen Press reports of the resolution referred to, and the whole subject is now engaging the attention of the Government.
Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate the great importance to the Empire of an early decision being come to by the Government as to what their trade policy is likely to be?
I can assure my hon. Friend that I quite appreciate, and so do the Government, the importance of this question.
GERMANS (CHANGING NAMES).
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to a statement made by the Recorder at the Central Criminal Court, when charging the grand jury on 2nd May, stating that it was deeply to be regretted that the Government permitted Germans to change their names under deed poll during the War in order to conceal their identity when many of them were ready to betray this country; and whether, having regard to the experience of the Recorder in dealing with crimes committed by Germans, the Government purpose taking any steps to prevent naturalised Germans from changing their names during the War?
I stated, in answer to a question on the 10th instant, that the statements reported to have been made by the Recorder do not represent the facts. No Germans have been permitted by the Government to change their names since the War began, with the exception of twelve persons, almost all of whom were British born women, German by marriage only, and now widows or separated from their husbands. As regards change of name by British subjects, I have nothing to add to the answers already given by my predecessor, the Attorney-General and myself.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the German, Russian and French Governments refuse to allow any naturalised subjects to change their names unless they can show to a Court of Law that it is in the public interest to do so; and is he aware that a large number of naturalised Germans continue daily to change their names?
I was not aware of that fact in regard to the countries mentioned, but I will make inquiries.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that Germans are changing their names and that no action is being taken to stop it?
Not German. They are all British subjects of German origin. There is no restriction upon them, and no restrictions could be imposed under the Aliens Restriction Order, because they are exempt from its provisions.
Can the right hon. Gentleman not bring in legislation?
I am not convinced that any case has been made out for legislation.
RACE MEETINGS (METROPOLITAN POLICE).
asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of his statement that the Metropolitan Police would not be taken from their duties during a time when there is a shortage of men for the purposes of racecourse meetings, he will say if he is aware that the local police at Newmarket, Gatwick, and Windsor recently applied to the Commissioner for police to assist at these meetings, that police were sent, and were paid by the secretaries of these racecourse committees; and will he take steps to prevent any police being taken at the present time from their duties for these purposes?
No police have been sent to assist in maintaining order at these racecourses, but at the request of the local police a few officers of the Criminal Investigation Department, well acquainted with criminals frequenting racecourses, have been sent to Newmarket and Gatwick.
Does the Government consider it is in the public interest that police or detective officers should be taken during a period of great national war for the purpose of protecting people of this character who frequent racecourses?
My province is to see that the police protect people from criminals wherever they congregate, and naturally the police are sent to places where they are likely to be found.
ALIEN ENEMIES.
asked the Home Secretary whether he has received any communication from the Wandsworth tribunal to the effect that they had received a list of nine enemy aliens released from internment camps who were now working at their trade in or near London; and could he say whether any of these men, and, if so, how many were working for men of German, Austrian, or enemy origin?
Yes, Sir, I have received the list and have made inquiry into the nine cases. Six of the men are in the employ of British subjects, one is a master baker, and two are employed by German subjects. Four of the six British employers are British born, two are naturalised men of German origin, while of the two German employers, one is interned and the other is a widow, who has been here since she was fourteen. Eight of the nine men were recommended for exemption by the Advisory Committee. They had all been resident in this country for thirty years or upwards except one, who had resided for twenty-eight years, having come to this country at the age of two. The ninth is not a German, but a Hungarian, who has been twenty years in this country.
Is the master baker of German or enemy origin?
I think my hon. and gallant Friend had better read my answer.
asked the Home Secretary how many bakers of German, Austrian, or enemy origin there were in Wandsworth before the War began; and how many bakers of enemy origin there are in Wandsworth at the present time?
At the beginning of the War forty-three enemy alien bakers registered as being employed in the borough of Wandsworth; the present number is seventeen. There were, in addition on the outbreak of War seven enemy alien bakers residing in the borough but employed elsewhere. Of these three are still resident there. The information available only relates to enemy aliens.
CITY AND METROPOLITAN POLICE.
asked the Home Secretary whether he can state the average amount in money or percentage of increase in pay and lodging allowance granted or given to the members of the City and Metropolitan Police since the outbreak of the War owing to the increased cost of food, clothing, and living for the men and their families?
A war allowance of 3s. a week has been given to the City and Metropolitan Police.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the average pay of the average constable having twenty years' service is about £2 per week, and that the 3s. war bonus represents an increase of 8 per cent. only, whereas the cost of living and food has increased by 50 per cent. since the War began, and does he expect that these men can live under these conditions?
Yes, Sir; the cost of living referred to does not cover the whole of a man's expenditure; it only covers that part which is devoted to food. A great many other costs of living have not increased, for instance, rent; and these men get their clothes from the State.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the allowance made to the average constable does not pay more than half the actual rent he has to pay for himself, his wife and family?
I would point out to my hon. Friend that the sum of 3s. was the sum awarded to Post Office servants by arbitration as the amount which should be given to them.
Is there any possibility of the police getting arbitration on their question?
No request has been made for arbitration, and, if it were made, I do not think that it would be entertained.
BOARD OF AGRICULTURE (SCOTLAND).
asked the Secretary for Scotland when the Board of Agriculture (Scotland) Report for last year will be presented?
I am in communication with the Board of Agriculture for Scotland with a view to expediting the publication of the Report.
Will the right hon. Gentleman arrange with the Prime Minister to give this House an opportunity of discussing Scottish agricultural affairs as soon as we get the Report?
I will do my best.
BRITISH RAILWAYS (RESTAURANT CARS).
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will consult the railway companies with a view to retaining the restaurant cars on the railways and the supplying of cold luncheons and dinners which could be served by women?
The main object of withdrawing restaurant cars is to save engine power and to reduce train mileage. I think the matter must be left to the discretion of the railway companies.
I suppose the hon. Gentleman is aware that the Great Eastern Railway Company do not intend to withdraw their restaurant cars, and passengers on that line can be served by women dressed in very attractive uniform.
SHIPPING COMPANIES (FREIGHTS AND FOOD PRICES.)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been drawn to the constant declaration of huge profits of shipping companies; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter with a view to allay public anxiety in connection with the continued increase in the cost of food, which it is suggested is mainly due to the high freights now ruling?
I am aware of the high profits made by many shipping companies. If the regulation of the freights of British ships would solve the tonnage difficulty, which is world wide, it would have been adopted long ago. Any regulation of freights to have an effective influence on prices must extend to neutral ships, which is impracticable without endangering the supply of neutral tonnage to bring necessaries to this country, and thus producing a shortage which would increase prices instead of diminishing them. We are doing our utmost to alleviate the tonnage situation by securing economy in the use of the ships we have and by bringing more ships into service, and in this we have had a fair measure of success, though much still remains to be done.
NEUTRAL SHIPS.
asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) if he has a guarantee from each of the neutral firms for whom ships are now building in this country that such ships shall not come under German control after the conclusion of the War; (2) if under the exceptional circumstances created by the War he will announce the names of the neutral firms for whom mercantile ships are now building in this country, so that British shipowners may assist him in preventing these ships coming ultimately under German control; and (3) if he was consulted by the President of the Board of Trade before permission was given to British shipbuilders to build steamers for neutrals; if so, was this step taken with his consent and approval; and can he say that the building of steamers for neutrals is consistent with the deficiencies in certain kinds of ships which the Board of Admiralty was recently said to be most anxious to fill up?
My right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty has asked me to reply to the question addressed to him, and I will answer the hon. Baronet's three questions together. No ship can be exported from the United Kingdom during the War without the consent of the Admiralty and Board of Trade. The Departments act together and obtain full guarantees as to the manner in which the ships will be employed during the War. The very few ships that are being allowed to be built for neutrals are tied down to British or Allied trade during the War at about half the market rates. The question of the position of these ships after the War is at present under careful consideration, and all steps necessary to protect British interests will be taken. There would be practical difficulties in enforcing a guarantee that any particular ship will not at any future time come under German control, but the point is not being overlooked, and such precautions as are possible will be adopted.
May I ask if it is in the interests of this country that ships should be built at the present time for neutrals which obviously may come under the control of Germany when the War is over?
The hon. Gentleman is asking the same question again.
Could the hon. Gentleman state whether any of these ships are being built for Sweden in view of the law passed by the Swedish Parliament rendering such agreements illegal?
I do not think so, but I cannot say without notice.
May I ask whether any new contracts for neutral ships are being made?
Not, I believe, without consultation with us.
Is it a fact that no less than eleven ships are being built for one neutral firm?
I cannot answer that question without notice.
Could the hon. Gentleman give the name of the neutral firm asked for in Question No. 26?
Not without notice.
It is in the question.
MILK SUPPLY.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if the recent increase in the price of milk is caused by any increase in the cost of production or by a shortage in supply; and, if not, can he say what is the cause of the recent increase, and does he propose to take steps to fix a reasonable price to the consumer?
I discussed the question yesterday with representatives of the London milk trade. I understand from them that the rise in price is partly due to increased cost of distribution, but mainly to the high price of all agricultural produce, and particularly of meat and cheese. If farmers cannot obtain anything like a proportionate price for milk, there is a tendency to sell cows and heifers to the butcher, and this is accentuated by the withdrawal of milkers for military service. If, owing to the disproportion of price, the production of milk were reduced, a shortage would result, which would have far more serious consequences than the present rise in price. There is no evidence of any shortage of supply at present.
Why is it then that in many districts the prices have not risen?
Is it not a fact that the large proportion of farmers in this country are obtaining little, if any, increase on the prices they were getting months ago?
No. This question and my answer refers to London milk only, and it was with the London milk purveyors that I had my conference. I am not prepared, at present, to give any definite facts with regard to other parts of the country. The statement made is that the prices the London purveyors are paying are from 5d. to 6d. per gallon more than pre-war prices.
May I ask whether there is any intention of putting the Milk Act, 1914, into operation in order to give the municipalities the power to supply milk?
If my hon. Friend will look at the answer, he will see that there would be danger in any action which tended to reduce the price of milk unless other agricultural products, at the same time, were taken into consideration.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the price of milk delivered in London to-day is 1s. per gallon at the stations? And why did the hon. Gentleman only meet the representatives of the purveyors after an agitation started by the Press?
The milk at the station sold at this price is surplus milk which, particularly in the month of May, can be got cheaply at the stations.
CEDAR-WOOD SLATS (IMPORTS).
asked the President of the Board of Trade if the importation is prohibited of cedar-wood slats, required by our British pencil manufacturers, while the import of cedar-wood pencils is permitted; and, if this is the case, will the Government consider the advisability of allowing our pencil manufacturers to import sufficient cedar-wood slats to keep their industry running, and of reducing proportionately, if found necessary, the quantity imported of finished pencils?
Licences will be given for the present for the importation of cedar slats.
BEER OUTPUT.
asked the President of the Board of Trade what quantity of foreign ale and beer was imported into the United Kingdom during the year 1914–15, and also during the first two quarters of 1915–16?
The numbers of barrels (of 36 gallons) of foreign ale and beer imported into the United Kingdom during the two periods specified by the hon. Member were 52,000 and 13,000 respectively.
Would it not be wiser to use our shipping to more profitable purposes, in view of the scarcity of food?
That scarcely arises out of the question on the Paper.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether on-licence holders who have obtained their supplies from beer dealers, and not directly from brewers, will be entitled to proportionate supplies under Clause 5 of the Output of Beer (Restriction) Bill; and, if not, whether he will amend the Bill so as to include beer dealers and their customers within the operation of that Clause?
The Clause referred to is only intended to prevent brewers from differentiating against on-licence holders in the matter of the supply of beer. I do not think it would be possible to guarantee supplies to licence holders who did not obtain their beer direct.
COMMITTEE ON TRADE POLICY.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Committee appointed by him to consider a trade policy after the War has met; whether it has taken evidence; and when it is likely to report?
I must refer the hon. and gallant Gentleman to the reply which my right hon. Friend returned to the hon. Member for Walsall on 19th April, of which I am sending him a copy.
HOUSE PROPERTY (STATUTORY OBLIGATIONS TO PAINT).
asked the Solicitor-General if he is aware that in important and numerous districts in London, Brighton, and Hove a number of houses were erected during the Regency and before the accession of William IV., which are governed by special Statutes whereby it is provided that, whether held under lease or freehold, they shall be painted externally in uniform and special tints, and shall be repaired under stringent regulations at stated periods; whether the Government has taken any action in regard to the request made by the Hove Town Council to the President of the Local Government Board for authority to postpone such work; is he aware that this and other public bodies look to the Government for assistance in the direction desired; and whether he will indicate what action is necessary to give municipalities the power to postpone such work?
I am aware that there is a special statutory provision of the nature referred to in the question affecting certain houses in Hove, and that the Hove Town Council have communicated with the Local Government Board with a view to the extension of the time limited by the Statute, but as to the other places mentioned I have no information. Under the Special Acts (Extension of Time) Act, 1915, where the time within which a duty is to be performed under any special Act is limited, an application may be made to the appropriate Government Department for an order extending that time, but in all cases such an application should be made before the time limited by the special Act expires. I understand that the time limited by the Hove Statute has already expired, and in regard to that case I cannot add anything to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board on the 15th May.
MILITARY SERVICE.
COMMERCIAL TRAVELLERS (AGREEMENTS).
asked the Solicitor-General if his attention has been drawn to the position of commercial travellers of military age who, at present, hold appointments in civil life under time agreements with respect to their liability to be called up under the Military Service Bill, having regard to the fact that when the War is over their agreements will have become null and void by the efflux of time; and whether, in view of the hardship and loss which will be imposed upon them in that event, he will endeavour to meet their case by promoting legislation which will have the effect of suspending their agreements during the period of their service in the Army instead of allowing their agreements to lapse?
The question of promoting legislation for the purpose of suspending the time agreements of travellers who are on active service has received consideration, but it has been found impossible to propose a general suspension of these agreements for the benefit of travellers without incurring the risk of causing serious hardship to the other parties to the agreements, whose position may be entirely changed during the War, and it is therefore not intended to propose the legislation suggested. It cannot be doubted that employers generally will act with consideration towards their travellers who offer themselves or are called up for military service.
LOCAL TRIBUNALS.
asked the President of the Local Government Board if the regulations and instructions have yet been issued to the tribunals; and, if not, will he at once take steps to see that the same are put before them and the general public, as the delay is causing much anxiety?
A revised set of regulations and instructions containing various amendments consequent upon the passing of the new Act is in preparation and will be circulated to the tribunals as early as practicable.
Will copies be sent to Members of this House?
If they desire, yes.
asked the President of the Local Government Board if he has received representations from all the labour organisations in Kettering protesting against the inadequate representation of labour on the local tribunal; and will he point out to the local authority that one Labour member on a tribunal of seven is not adequate representation and is not in accordance with his instructions?
I have within the last few days received some representations on this subject, and I am communicating with the local authority.
asked the President of the Local Government Board if he is aware that Mr. Frank Bibby, who was appointed by him to be chairman of the Appeal Tribunal for Salop, has had all his gamekeepers of military age, of whom he kept some fourteen, transferred to the Remount depot near his place, that he has four motor drivers who are badged, that all his house and farm servants are badged, and that as Mr. Bibby is refusing exemption to men farming their own land considerable local feeling has been aroused at his conduct; and, with the object of giving appellants before the Appeal Tribunal some confidence that their cases will be fairly and judicially considered, will he revoke the appointment of the present chairman?
Mr. Bibby was not appointed by me as chairman of the Shropshire and Herefordshire Appeal Tribunal, but was elected unanimously by the tribunal. As the question contains a series of charges against Mr. Bibby, who has rendered the country invaluable services in more than one direction, I think it right to state that since the commencement of the War he has been superintendent of a Remount depot for Artillery horses under the War Office, at which not less than 500 horses have been under training at any time. The additional stabling necessary for over 300 horses was erected free of expense to the Government. No rent or maintenance charges are paid by them. Owing to the difficulty of procuring suitable men for this work, six (not fourteen) gamekeepers, with previous knowledge of horses, were transferred to and are exclusively employed in remount work; five of the six are married men with families and the other is medically unfit for active service. In addition, three married men, previously stable men, who hold motor-driving licences, are practically entirely employed on remount work. The wages of these three men and of seven others engaged at the depât are paid by Mr. Bibby, and not by the Government. None of Mr. Bibby's house and farm-servants are badged. I may add that besides the men employed in the depot more than 100 men from Mr. Bibby's estates have joined the Army.
Are we to expect an apology from the hon. Member?
What has the right hon. Gentleman's reply to do with the facts stated in the question?
They are not facts.
AGE REGULATIONS (VOLUNTEERS OF FORTY-ONE).
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether a voluntarily attested man who has attained the age of forty-one years since his attestation, but before he has been called up for service, is eligible or not?
No, Sir. Under the present age limits, a voluntarily attested man who attains the age of forty-one years before he is called up for service is not retained with the Colours, but is passed to the Reserve, and would not be called up unless the age limit were extended.
DOMICILED BRITISH SUBJECTS.
asked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Government propose to introduce legislation to deal with men domiciled in this country of military age who have gone abroad or to Ireland to escape military service?
I do not think this is a matter which can be dealt with by legislation, but all possible administrative steps have been taken, and are being taken, to prevent men of military age from leaving this country without the permission of the Government, and to recall those who went abroad before the War or during its earliest stages.
If a man is a British subject domiciled in this country and is at present abroad, is it a fact that he will be under no disabilities if he returns to this country after the War, and is it not a fact that in all Continental countries a man who does not join loses all his civil rights?
I will inquire.
CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS.
asked the Prime Minister if he has received from the International Bible Students' Association a list of their members who are now undergoing imprisonment for resistance to military orders on conscientious grounds, together with a request that these men should be put to some work of a useful nature under civil authority, which the men are willing to undertake; and what reply has been sent to this request.
I have received various communications from this association, though I cannot trace the list to which my hon. Friend refers. These communications have been duly acknowledged, but I saw no reason to enter into correspondence with one particular association on this question.
asked the Under-Secretary for War if his attention has been called to the action of Lieut.-Colonel Reginald Brooke, commandant Wands-worth barracks, who, on the 19th instant, opened a letter addressed to Mr. H. Goitein, a conscientious objector, and returned to the sender with the inscription: Letter returned. Not of a sort I will pass. If your news re Private Rendall Wyatt is true I am very delighted to hear, and sincerely hope the whole lot of c.o.'s will be treated the same; and will he say-what action he proposes to take?
No, Sir. My attention has not been called to any such action on the part of the officer named.
Has not the attention of the right hon. Gentleman been called to the matter by this question on the Paper, and why has he not inquired into it?
I understand that the letter was not returned in this form.
It was.
( by Private Notice ) asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether conscientious objectors who have been drafted into the Army may legally be placed in irons for disobedience to orders; whether it is the intention of the War Office to review the sentences passed on such men; whether the death sentence will be inflicted on such men for disobedience to orders at the front; and whether the treatment of such men is severer than that meted out to other soldiers?
If men have been placed in irons in regimental cells, except for extreme violence or destroying their clothing and equipment, the action taken is illegal, and those responsible would be held accountable for their actions. Men who may have been committed to prison or detention barracks are subject to confinement in cells, and are liable to be placed in irons for certain offences laid down in the rules for military prisons and detention barracks, which have been approved by Parliament. One case has been reported where a man who, it is believed, stated that he was a conscientious objector, was handcuffed for a short time in a regimental cell.
Arrangements were made by the War Office to review all sentences passed on alleged conscientious objectors by courts-martial. In certain cases, courts awarded a sentence of two years' imprisonment, but on review by the War Office such sentences have invariably been commuted to 112 days' detention, which is the punishment laid down by the King's Regulations as suitable for a man's first offence of disobedience of orders brought before a court-martial.
The companies of the Non-Combatant Corps, numbering 341, which are now in France, are rendering useful service behind the front. No trouble has been experienced with any of the men in France. Continued refusal to obey orders there would not involve the penalty of death. The treatment of such men is neither more nor less severe than that of other soldiers who commit similar offences.
Can the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that there will be no distinction between conscientious objectors and other men in the ranks in regard to punishment for disobedience of orders?
Yes, Sir. If my hon. and gallant Friend will refer to the last part of my answer he will see that I state, "the treatment of such men is not more nor less severe than that of other soldiers."
TREATMENT OF RECRUITS (NORWICH).
asked the Under-Secretary for War if he is aware that on Friday, 12th May, some fifty recruits from King's Lynn were ordered to attend at the Britannia Barracks, Norwich; that they were kept waiting in the rain from 2 p.m. to 7.30 p.m., and were then informed that they would not be examined till the next day; that they were given plank beds to sleep on, but some of them having no money were obliged to go without food till after their postponed examination, and that one of them contracted bronchitis as a result of the treatment received; and will he take steps to ensure more satisfactory arrangements in the future?
I have called for a report.
MARRIED MEN.
asked the Under-Secretary for War whether the Army Council will consider the possibility of making arrangements for the older married men when called up being stationed for their preliminary training as near their homes as possible, so that in their spare time they can keep in touch with their business and be enabled to supervise the adjustment of their affairs?
I sympathise with the object the hon. Member has in view, but I am informed that this proposal is not practicable.
RECRUITING MEDICAL BOARD, EAST SUFFOLK.
asked the Under-Secretary for War why the recruiting medical board for East Suffolk is at Bury St. Edmunds, which is in West Suffolk, instead of in Ipswich; whether he is aware that Bury St. Edmunds is very difficult to reach by railway from towns in the East of Suffolk; whether he is aware that the Appeal Tribunal for East Suffolk and the Ipswich local tribunal have asked that a medical board might be set up in Ipswich on account of the inconvenience and expense of sending men to Bury St. Edmunds; whether the Director of Recruiting has recommended that a more central place should be chosen; and whether he proposes to establish a medical board in Ipswich?
asked the Under-Secretary for War why the recruiting medical board sits at Bury St. Edmunds, in the area of West Suffolk, the population of which at the last Census was 116,905, instead of at Ipswich, in the area of East Suffolk, with a population of 277,155; and whether, as the railway communication with Bury St. Edmunds does not compare with that of Ipswich, he will arrange for the transfer of the board to the latter town or the establishment there of a separate board?
Yes, Sir. Arrangements have been made for a recruiting medical board to assemble at Ipswich and to commence work there on the 29th May. It will sit daily on and after that date.
ENLISTMENT OF BOYS
asked the Under-Secretary for War whether he is aware that a recruiting officer at Hove informed a boy on the 18th May, when reporting himself for service, that youths of eighteen years of age all over the country are to be compelled to sign on for not less than seven years; will he say whether this is compulsory and whether any official countenance is given to pressure being applied to boys in order to induce them to enlist for long service; and whether their parents are consulted in the matter in cases where the engagement extends beyond the period contemplated under the Derby recruiting scheme or the Military Service Act, 1916?
Enlistment under the Military Service Act, 1916, is for the period of the War. If any such statement as is reproduced in the first part of my hon. Friend's question was made, it was manifestly incorrect, and no recruiting officer had any right to make it.
TIME-EXPIRED MEN.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether men whose period of service has already expired and who have voluntarily reengaged for service are to be entitled to the scale of bounties announced?
I would refer my right hon. Friend to the Written Answer, which appeared in yesterday's OFFICIAL REPORT, to a similar question by my right hon. Friend the Member for the Hallam Division of Sheffield.
MUNITIONS.
MINISTRY OF MUNITIONS (STAFF).
asked the Minister of Munitions how many men of military age are now employed on the staff of the Ministry; how many of these are single men; and what proportion of them are regarded as indispensable?
On the 19th May the number of men of military age on the staff of the Ministry of Munitions was 1,213, of whom 492 were single men. Out of these 492, 195 have been medically rejected. Of the remainder, 38 will be allowed to go so soon as they are called up. The balance (259) are at this moment regarded as indispensable to the Ministry, but their cases are kept under consideration, and it will no doubt be possible to release some of them as time goes on. Many of them, however, possess engineering, chemical or other technical qualifications which it has not been possible to obtain in men not qualified for military service.
CONTROLLED ESTABLISHMENTS (QUESTIONS TO WORKMEN).
asked the Minister of Munitions if he is aware that employers in controlled establishments are requiring from workmen particulars as to their age and if they are attested; if these questions are asked with his sanction; and, if not, whether he will take any action in the matter?
I think that my hon. Friend must refer to inquiries made with a view to the completion of a special register of male employés which firms are now obliged to keep. Under Regulation 41 A of the Defence of the Realm Regulations there is an obligation upon such employés to supply on request the information necessary to enable the employer to make and revise this register.
Why should it be necessary to ask if the men have been attested?
I do not know if they have been asked.
If I supply the hon. Gentleman with a copy of the form will he inquire?
Certainly.
SUMNER STREET FILLING FACTORY (LABOUR DISPUTE).
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware of the conditions under which girls are employed at Sumner Street Filling Factory, Southwark; whether he is aware that the manager, named Johnson, from time to time lectures the girls on German atrocities and informs the girls that if they do not do their uttermost the deaths of the soldiers who are killed will be put at their door; whether he is aware that many of the girls have become hysterical as the result of such statements; that owing to the dismissal of a forewoman named Miss Cole the girls refused to work until the reason for her dismissal was given; that the manager gave instructions to the police at 11 p.m. to eject the girls from the factory, and that as a result a number of them had to walk the streets all night through not having enough money to get home; that several disputes have already occurred at these works and that the union concerned has used all its influence in the direction of peace; that, despite the fact that the representative of the Ministry of Munitions gave an undertaking that no dismissals should take place as the result of the stoppage of work, already the manager, since the resumption of work, has dismissed one of the girls, and that the manager has made the statement to the girls at a shop meeting that all who are members of the union would be got rid of one by one; and whether he will make a really searching inquiry into this matter?
My attention had not previously been drawn to the statements referred to in the first part of this question as having been made by the manager of the factory. I am informed that, owing to the dismissal of Miss Cole, some of the girls who were employed on urgent munition work refused either to work or to leave the factory, thus committing a serious breach of the Munitions Act. The assistance of the police was obtained to secure their departure, but I do not understand how this could have deprived them of their means of getting home. No under-taking was given by the Ministry of Munitions in regard to dismissals, but the union officials were asked to use their influence to secure a resumption of work, and were informed that on receipt of a written complaint the matter would be inquired into. I am informed that the manager, so far from seeking to get rid of members of the union, has given special instructions that applicants for employment should not in any case be asked whether they belong to a union or not.
NAVAL AND MILITARY WAR PENSIONS ACT.
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL SCHEME.
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been drawn to the action of the Statutory Committee under the Naval and Military War Pensions Act in approving the scheme framed by the London County Council for the administration of the Act in the County of London; whether he is aware that this scheme does not conform to the provisions in Section 2 (4) of the Act; whether he will consult the Law Officers of the Crown as to whether the Statutory Committee were acting ultra vires in approving the scheme; and whether steps will be taken to give effect to the provisions of the Act?
The scheme framed by the London County Council is, I believe, in conformity with the provisions of the Naval and Military War Pensions Act, and I see nothing on which I need consult the Law Officers of the Crown. Section 2 (4) deals with the division of a county into permanent districts, and enables but does not require such a division to be made.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider an appeal by the local authorities in London? They are up in arms against this suggestion of the London County Council.
The Statutory Committee will consider any representations made to them by the borough councils.
JUDICIAL AIR COMMITTEE.
asked the Prime Minister whether two Privy Councillors, Members of this House, have been summoned to attend before the Judicial Air Committee in order that the charges made by them in this House of the criminal neglect on the part of the Government in respect to the Air Service can be investigated; whether, following this precedent, he will now appoint a judicial munitions committee to report to this House whether the charges made by Members of this House that thousands of lives have been lost owing to His Majesty's Government having failed to order munitions early last year is true or untrue?
I understand the Committee have invited the two hon. Members referred to in the first part of the question. I do not propose to adopt the suggestion contained in the last part of the question.
Why not?
The two cases are not analogous.
Is it not a fact that owing to a statement made by a new Member in this House the Prime Minister thought it necessary to set up a Judicial Committee, and why should the views of Privy Councillors and old Members of this House be ignored?
I have said that the two cases are not analogous.
FOOD SUPPLY.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the possibility of a shortage of food supplies arising in this country, he can state whether the Government have prepared any plan for dealing with such an emergency or whether it is proposed to defer any plan until the emergency has occurred?
The principle upon which the Government is acting with regard to a possible emergency as to food supplies is that prevention is better than cure. If my hon. Friend will be so kind as to refer to columns 1837, 1850, and 1851 of the OFFICIAL REPORT of last Monday, he will see that the Board of Agriculture has the necessary machinery and powers for dealing with the matter.
PHOTOGRAPHS OF GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS.
asked the Prime Minister whether under the Defence of the Realm Regulations no Government Department is allowed to have photographs taken of buildings being erected by that Department without permission of the War Office; whether early this spring it took the Admiralty nearly five weeks to secure such permission from the War Office; that this month a fine of £5 was imposed on a photographer for a breach of these Regulations who had been instructed by the Minister of Munitions to photograph a factory under his Department in Flintshire; and why a Government Department is not considered sufficiently responsible to be permitted to issue such permits in matters connected with its own activities?
I have ascertained from the Departments concerned that they have no complaint to make of the existing arrangements, and I can assure my hon. Friend that their representatives in the Government are fully capable of looking after their interests.
Does the right hon. Gentleman deny that there is considerable delay in getting this permission from the War Office?
The Departments do not complain.
PARIS CONFERENCE (MR HUGHES).
asked the Prime Minister if, in view of the suggested postponement of the Paris Conference, he proposes to ask the Australian Commonwealth Government to grant an extension of leave to Mr. Hughes?
We still hope to be able to arrange the Conference at a date which will be convenient to Mr. Hughes.
NAVAL OFFICERS (INCOME TAX).
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will give further consideration to the question of the extent to which naval officers have been forced to curtail by a serious proportion the amount of pay allotted to their wives and families in consequence of the imposition of increased Income Tax upon salaries of £300 per annum and upwards; whether he has since been made aware that there is a number of cases of officers in His Majesty's Fleet whose financial position has been made difficult in consequence of the increased cost of living of their families ashore and as a result of the imposition of the increased taxation; and whether, in view of the services of naval officers and the fact that prize money and prize bounty are still withheld from the Fleet for the first time for 400 years, he will take steps, in the interests of the Service, to secure that the minimum salary upon which war taxation should be charged for the current financial year shall be £500?
As regards the first part of the question, the further ledgers received since the reply to my hon. Friend's question of the 8th May show that in no single case has the rate of allotment been reduced. All the evidence, therefore, at present available is in direct opposition to the suggestion that naval officers have been forced to curtail by a serious proportion the amount of pay allotted to their wives and families, owing to increased taxation. The suggestion in the final part of the question is one entirely for the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I take occasion to say that my hon. Friend's reference to prize money and prize bounty is, to say the least of it, somewhat misleading. I have frequently explained to the House the difficulty under new conditions of making payments of prize money until the close of hostilities, and, as regards prize bounty, one award has already been sanctioned and is now in course of distribution, and others will immediately follow.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that hardship has been inflicted upon a number of naval officers owing to the liability for the payment of increased Income Tax upon salaries of £300 per annum and upwards; and whether, in view of the additional cost of living and the fact that numbers of naval officers are wholly dependent upon their pay, and that prize money and prize bounty are still withheld from the Fleet for the first time for 400 years, he will consider the desirability of raising the salary limit liable to the war levy to a minimum of £500 as a recognition of the services of naval officers to the country, which will give satisfaction throughout His Majesty's Fleet?
I may refer the hon. Member to Clause 20 of the finance Bill.
SHIPS' CREWS (BONUS).
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether at Liverpool the transport officer has informed the Seamen's and Firemen's Union and the National Union of Ship Stewards that the £1 extra bonus to members of crews was to be discontinued; whether this was done with the sanction of the Admiralty, in view of the agreement entered into with the unions so recently as the 1st of May; whether a crew was signed on for the steamship "Netherlee" at the rates hid down in the agreement, and that six lays afterwards, the vessel being still in port, the local transport officer issued orders that the crew should be signed off; that this was done on the 12th of May, the crew receiving fifteen days' pay; that the following day they were invited to sign of again at the reduced rate; that the men declined; that the next day a crew, the salors and firemen of which were all Chines, was signed on at rates of £2 and £2 10s. under the port rate; and whether he will stat the reason for this action on the part of the Admiralty in violating their own agreement?
At the beginning of the War the Admiralty undertook to pay the sum of £1 per month over he then port rates, in consideration mainly of the nature of Admiralty service. That is the only agreement entered into by the Admiralty. It has never been violated in any way Recently the Liverpool Employers' Association, the Seamen's and Firemen's Union, and the National Union of Ships' Stewards, entered into an agreement under which wages in merchant ships engaged on commercial work sailing from that port were to be raised to the level which would cover the £1 extra being paid in Admiralty requisitioned steamers. The unions now ask that we should add a further £1, so far as Liverpool is concerned, to the commercial rates now secured, irrespective of the fact that those rates have reached a level considerably beyond the level at which they were when our agreement was entered into. This we have refused to do. As regards the "Netherlee," mention was made of the matter to me on the 15th May by Liverpool representatives of the unions, who promised me the facts in order that I might investigate them. I have not yet received the information.
INTERNED ALIENS (GRANTS FOR CHILDREN).
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Treasury, before it sanctions the application of the Local Government Board for increased grants by boards of guardians for the nourishment of the children of interned aliens, will give due consideration to the increasingly bad conditions under which British civilians are now forced to live at Ruhleben; and will he give preferential treatment to the children of soldiers and sailors serving in His Majesty's Forces over those of His Majesty's enemies?
The proposals of the Local Government Board have already been approved. In its treatment of prisoners and other enemy aliens in this country His Majesty's Government is guided by the dictates of humanity and the principles of The Hague Convention. The rates paid in respect of the children of soldiers and sailors are higher than those paid on account of the children of interned aliens.
Before he sanctions an increase, will the right hon. Gentleman ascertain what grants are being given to the children of interned English prisoners in Ruhleben?
I do not think the two cases can be weighed one against the other. No matter what other Governments may do, this Government will continue to be actuated by the principles of humanity.
How does the right hon. Gentleman expect to get better treatment for our prisoners at Ruhleben if he gives everything with both hands to the children of interned Germans here?
I do not think my hon. Friend has stated the case quite fairly. We believe ourselves to be bound by the rules of The Hague Convention. We have acted honestly and fearlessly in accordance with those rules, and I hope the House will support the Government in so doing.
Is it not the fact that the French have secured much better treatment for their prisoners by adopting the rule of like for like?
If the hon. Member will give me any information on the subject I shall be very glad to receive it.
Does the action of the Government in this respect justify the statement of the American Ambassador, with regard to the starving of British prisoners, that they have only their own Government to thank?
No.
FINANCE BILL.
EXCESS PROFITS DUTY.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if his attention has been called to the circular issued by the directors of the Northern Co-operative Society, Limited, drawing attention to the arrangement which has been made of giving a discount on purchases effected without checks, which method is recommended in order to avoid the War Profits Duty which is exacted by the Government, and hoping that it will be largely taken advantage of by customers; and will he say if he intends taking any action to stop such evasion of the Excess War Profits Tax?
I have received no information in regard to this matter, but I will cause due inquiry to be made. As the hon. Member is no doubt aware, the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915, specifically provides that no deduction shall be allowed in respect of any transaction or operation which artifically reduces the amount to be taken as the profits of a trade.
NAVAL AND MILITARY SERVICES (PENSIONS AND GRANTS).
asked the Under-Secretary for War if he can state why the pension granted to Private Peter O'Neill, late of the 6th Inniskilling Dragoons, No. 5,395, has now been reduced by half to 12s. 6d. per week for himself and 1s. 3d. per week for each of his two children; whether O'Neill was so seriously wounded at Messines on 31st October, 1914, that one of his ribs had to be cut away, three of his ribs being still fractured near the spine, the bottom part of his shoulder blade splintered and taken away, his right lung torn, and two pieces of shell being still in his side which the surgeons were unable to extract; whether he was discharged on 22nd May, 1915, as totally unfit for further service and is now pronounced totally unfit for work by his medical attendant, Dr. Petty; and, having regard to these facts and to the price of provisions, the pension will be increased so as to enable him to support himself, his wife, and two children?
The Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital found that this man's earning capacity had considerably improved, and his pension was, therefore, reassessed, in accordance with the recommendations of the Select Committee of this House.
asked the Under-Secretary for War if a pension will be granted to Corporal Martin Bennett, No. 3,121, 4th Leinster Regiment, who was discharged on the 5th May, 1916, after having been invalided home from France on 16th September 1915; if he is aware that Bennett served in all seventeen years, with the Colours, took part in the Boer War, and holds the Queen's South African Medal (four clasps); and whether his claim to a pension will be considered without delay as he has no means of supporting his wife and child?
This case is being considered by the Chelsea Commissioners, and I will let my hon. Friend know the result in due course.
PREES HEATH CAMP, SALOP.
asked the Under-Secretary for War if he can state the number of deaths which have taken place at the Prees Heath Camp, Salop, during the last three months; if he is aware that the soldiers encamped there complain of its unhealthy condition and the unsuitability of the site for an encampment; and what action is being taken to remedy the existing state of things?
The number of deaths during the last three months is thirty-eight. The condition of this camp has been specially reported on and it is stated to be good.
REGIMENTAL SERGEANT-MAJORS (TERRITORIAL FORCE).
asked the Under-Secretary for War whether, when a Territorial regiment goes abroad, all acting appointments are automatically confirmed with the exception of that of regimental sergeant-major; and, if this is so, will he have this Regulation altered, so that these warrant officers may receive substantive rank and their widows and dependants the pension payable to such rank in case of the men's death?
The suggestion made by my hon. and gallant Friend in the last three lines of the question is based on wrong information. A regimental sergeant-major of a Territorial Force battalion suffers no financial disability from the fact that he holds acting instead of substantive rank. His widow or dependants would not so suffer either in the event of his death.
Will regimental sergeant-majors be given such rank? Is there any reason why he should not?
Yes, there is every reason why he should not. It is a mere question of name. He gets all the emoluments.
What is the reason?
I will tell the hon. and gallant Gentleman.
INCOME TAX.
With the leave of the House, I desire to state that in Committee of Ways and Means on Monday next I shall move that there shall be charged for the year beginning the 6th day of April, 1916, and for any subsequent year in which Income Tax is charged on the income derived from any stocks, shares, or other securities which the Treasury is willing to purchase in connection with any arrangement for the regulation and maintenance of foreign exchanges, an additional duty of Income Tax at the rate of 2s. in the £, and that no exemption, abatement, or relief under the Income Tax Acts shall be given in respect of such additional duty. I shall propose also that exceptions shall be made in favour of the income from any securities for the time being deposited with the Treasury under any scheme for the regulation or maintenance of foreign exchanges; and, secondly, of the income from any securities belonging to institutions trading in foreign countries which are for the time being required to be held in such countries under any requirements of local law.
Great Southern and Western Railway.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that the Great Southern and Western Railway Company have served the Abbeyleix District Council with notice to claim £3,000 damages for injury done to the company's line of rails between Abbeyleix and Maryborough, Queen's County, on the morning of the 24th April, by which one locomotive engine and one bogie brake carriage were injured; and whether, in view of the fact that the ratepayers of the district, who had no part in this act, would be unable to pay this amount of compensation, he will consider the question of providing compensation out of public funds to meet this claim?
I understand that the Great Southern and Western Railway Company have served the Abbeyleix Rural District Council with a claim for malicious injuries for damage done to the company's line near Abbeyleix during the rebellion. The County Court judge will have power to assess the damage on any area he thinks fit, but assuming that it is levied over Abbeyleix rural district, it would come to about 9d. in the £. The rates in the district are only about 4s. in the £, and I am unable to hold out any hope that compensation can be provided in this case from public funds.
Land Purchase (Ireland).
asked what steps the Estates Commissioners have taken to acquire the Scott estate at Killeany, Mountrath, Queen's County, which was offered for sale to them by the owner some years ago?
It is presumed that the hon. Member refers to the estate of R. M. Marsh, at Killeany, Queen's County, the owner of which wrote to the Estates Commissioners shortly before the outbreak of war expressing his willingness to sell the property under the Land Purchase Acts. The Commissioners furnished him with an estimate of the price, but as the purchase money would, under the Act of 1909, be payable in Guaranteed 3 per Cent. Stock, which, in existing financial conditions, cannot be realised for the purpose of redeeming superior and other interests, the question of the sale has been deferred.
Ceylon (Temperance Movement).
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether anything is being done to restrain minor English officials in Ceylon from active hostility to the temperance movement, temperance societies, and advocates of temperance; whether the houses of temperance workers are still being searched by military and police; whether temperance workers are still being imprisoned without charge, released without trial, and given no rest until they cease temperance work; whether this policy has completely destroyed the temperance movement in Ceylon; and, seeing that the best and most educated Sinhalese resent this demoralisation of their people in the interest of an English trade, whether the connection between that trade and the Government of Ceylon can be diminished or rendered less obvious?
I am satisfied that there is no ground for the suggestion that the Government of Ceylon is in any way hostile to legitimate temperance work, or that action has been taken against any individuals in consequence of their connection with the temperance movement.
Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Cabinet are unanimous in denying these charges instead of granting an impartial inquiry for which the Sinhalese people have petitioned?
As there appears to be a good deal of unrest, will the right hon. Gentleman consider whether an inquiry is desirable?
I have already explained that my view and the view of the Government is that to raise this question now might cause a great deal of trouble.
Does the right hon. Gentleman deny that the Sinhalese people have any right to a view of their own in this matter?
No, I do not.
asked what explanation he can give of the shooting, on 5th June, 1915, at Palankade, Ceylon, by direction of an English officer, of the man Mahagamage Singho Appu, without charge or trial; whether he disputes the affidavit of this man's widow, sworn before a magistrate at Colombo last September, that no inquiry whatever was addressed to either her husband or herself or anybody else before the shooting; that she was never told why her husband was shot, and that the shooting of him left her a destitute widow with seven children, the youngest of them about one year old; and whether Sir Robert Chalmers, then Governor of Ceylon, now Under-Secretary for Ireland, still holds that no inquiry ought to be made and no redress given in this case?
I have no reason to believe that there is any foundation for the allegations contained in this question.
I have not asked if the right hon. Gentleman has any reason to believe. I asked if the right hon. Gentleman can deny the question on the Paper?
I do.
River Shannon.
asked the Secretary to the Treasury why there is a notice on both sides of the swivel bridge over the Shannon at Shannonbridge stating in large letters that the bridge is only to carry three tons if the statement of the Board of Works is correct that it is capable of bearing twelve tons; whether the bridge as repaired fails to close properly; and whether boards and a chain and lock and key have to be employed to cover this defect?
I am informed that there were notices on the bridge over the River Shannon at Shannonbridge limiting the weight of traffic passing over it to three tons, but that they have recently been removed, and that there is now no notice on the bridge. On completion of the strengthening of the bridge, the Board of Works received a report that it closed with perfect satisfaction, in fact, better than it did before it was strengthened. They are not aware of any change having since occurred in its working, but they are having inquiries made on the point.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say why it took twelve months to finish the bridge and why people were prevented from crossing the bridge all last winter?
I cannot say. I have very little knowledge of this bridge myself. If the hon. Member will disclose to me the object he has in view in putting these questions, I will try to get a comprehensive amount of information for him from Ireland.
Thank you.
Colonial Investments (Income Tax).
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether representations have been made to him with regard to double Income Tax payable by persons resident in this country on their Dominion and Colonial investments; and whether this hindrance to the development of the British Empire will be removed?
I may refer the hon. and gallant Member to Clause 28 of the Finance Bill.
BILLS REPORTED.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill,
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the third time upon Monday next.
Local Government Provisional Order (No. 6) Bill,
Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill, as amended, to be considered upon Monday next.
Halifax Corporation Provisional Order Bill,
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the third time upon Monday next.
Marriages Provisional Order Bill,
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the third time upon Monday next.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (Gas) Bill,
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the third time upon Monday next.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill,
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the third time upon Monday next.
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE.
First Report brought up, and read; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 83.]
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confirm a scheme made by a Committee of the Lords of His Majesty's Privy Council under the Municipal Corporation Acts, 1882 and 1885, relating to Buxton." [Municipal Corporations (Buxton Scheme Confirmation) Bill [ Lords. ]
And also a Bill, intituled, "An Act to dissolve the marriage of the Honourable Flora Fitzmaurice Irvine with Edward St. George Tottenham Irvine, her now husband, and to enable her to marry again; and for other purposes." [Irvine's Divorce Bill [ Lords. ]
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (BUXTON SCHEME CONFIRMATION) BILL [Lords].
Read the first time; referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 50].
IRVINE'S DIVORCE BILL [Lords].
Read the first time; to be read a second time.
BILL PRESENTED.
Courts (Emergency Powers) (Amendment—No. 2) Bill,—"to give to Courts in connection with the present War further powers of granting relief," presented by Sir GEORGE CAVE; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Will the Prime Minister state the arrangements for business next week, and is he able to make any announcement as to any recess?
On Monday, we shall take the Committee stage of the Consolidated Fund Bill, Committee of Ways and Means, the Second Readings of the Naval Discipline Bill, the Output of Beer (Restriction) Bill, the Anglo-Portuguese Commercial Treaty Bill, the Courts (Emergency Powers) Bill, and stages of other Bills on the Paper;
On Tuesday, the Third Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill;
On Wednesday, Supply (the Vote for the Salary of the Secretary of State for War);
And on Thursday, we hope to take the Adjournment Motion over the Whitsuntide holidays.
The Courts (Emergency Powers) (Amendment) Bill has not yet been printed. It is rather too soon to take it on Monday, when we have only known to-day that it is going to be introduced. If several other Bills are to be taken on that day, this Bill could be taken on Tuesday.
It will be printed to-night and circulated to-morrow morning. That gives Friday and Saturday for hon. Members to consider it.
And Sunday.
Can the right hon. Gentleman, for the convenience of Members, indicate the length of the Recess?
We have not decided yet, but I hope it will be fairly long.
Ordered, "That the Proceedings on the Consolidated Fund (No. 3) Bill have precedence this day of the Business of Supply."—[ The Prime Minister. ]
CONFERENCE OF PARTIES.
PRIME MINISTER'S STATEMENT.
It has been indicated more than once during this week that to-day, on the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund (No. 3) Bill, which stands first in the Orders of the Day, I hoped to say something on behalf of the Government in regard to recent events and the present situation in Ireland. The appropriations made by the Consolidated Fund Bill, which gives effect to the Vote of Credit passed during this week by the House, are confined entirely to the military, naval and ancillary war services, and I find, after consulting and taking the judgment of Mr. Speaker, that the Rules of Order will prevent anything in the nature of a general Debate and review of what has taken place during the last month in Ireland. The purview of the Bill—the Consolidated Fund Bill—does not concern and, so we are advised, cannot be stretched to include any criticism or defence of the Civil Executive, which comprises the action of the police, and for this reason alone no discussion of the general situation on the Second Reading of that Bill would be possible on the present occasion. I must, therefore, appeal to the indulgence of the House to allow me, before the Orders of the Day are reached, to say a few words.
Move the Adjournment!
Will there be any opportunity of debating what the right hon. Gentleman says?
There will be no opportunity of debate on that part of the statement which relates to the civil Government of Ireland. There will be such opportunity in regard to the military.
Move the Adjournment!
I am not altogether sorry that is the case. It is not the desire of the Government to burke any general discussion. On the contrary, they are most anxious that it should take place.
When?
But I am certain that such a discussion, even under untrammelled conditions, would not be effectual or fruitful until the inquiries which are now going on—and which I can assure hon. Members are as searching and impartial as it is possible to be—have been concluded In the meantime our primary duty as the Government in Ireland is to restore order and to prevent the possibility of a recurrence of disorder. We rejoice, as the whole of the country rejoices, in the overwhelming evidence that the great bulk of Irish opinion, of all creeds and parties, have no sympathy of any sort or kind with the recent ill-advised undertaking.
Quite untrue!
As I have said, order and peace must be restored, and that task is for the moment the main preoccupation of the Irish Executive. Martial law is continued as a precautionary measure. We hope that its disappearance will be speedy and complete.
How soon?
The composition of the Irish Executive itself must, for the time being, be of a provisional character. I have another reason for appealing for the indulgence of the House to allow me to intervene now. I fear that general Debate at this moment might tend to create an atmosphere unfavourable to appeals which my colleagues and I unitedly feel it our duty to make without any delay. I thought it my duty more than a week ago to go myself to Ireland to get what I may call a first-hand view of the whole situation. I saw with my own eyes the heartrending desolation which unhappy and misguided men wrought over a large area of the City of Dublin. I visited, and talked with the utmost freedom to, a large number of those who have been arrested and detained. I put myself in direct communication with all such representative exponents as I could meet of the various shades and schools of Irish opinion. I kept, I hope, not only my eyes and ears but my mind open, without any cloud of prepossession or prejudice, with the single desire to get at the truth. There were two main dominant impressions which were left on my mind. The first was the breakdown of the existing machinery of Irish Government; and the next was the strength and depth, and I might almost say I think without exaggeration the universality, of the feeling in Ireland that we have now a unique opportunity for a new departure for the settlement of outstanding problems, and for a joint and combined effort to obtain agreement as to the way in which the government of Ireland is for the future to be carried on.
As I said, and I repeat, the moment is felt in Ireland to be peculiarly opportune, and one great reason that has led to that opinion both there and here is our experience in the War. Irishmen of all creeds and classes, north, south, east, and west, have responded with alacrity and with self-devotion to the demands of the cause which appeals to them. They have shed, they are shedding to-day, their blood; giving the best of all they had, sacrificing what they prized most, without stint and without reserve, in the trenches and on the battlefields, which will be for ever consecrated to the memory of Ireland, as of Great Britain and of the Empire at large. Sir, can we who represent Great Britain, can they who represent Ireland, tolerate the prospect that when this War is over, when we have by our joint efforts and sacrifices, as we hope and believe we shall, achieved our end, here at home Irishmen should be arrayed against one another in the most tragic and the most debasing of all conflicts—internecine domestic strife? I say to the House of Commons and to the country and to the Empire that the thought is inconceivable. That can never be. It would be a confession of bankruptcy, not only of statesmanship, but of patriotism.
4.0 P.M.
I venture now to make an appeal to the House. The Government of Ireland Act is on the Statute Book. No one, so far as I know—I have said so repeatedly myself in the past—no one has ever desired or contemplated its coercive application by one set of Irishmen to another. What is now in this great domestic and Imperial emergency of paramount importance is that if it be possible—and I hope it is possible—that an agreement such as we sought, and sought in vain, before the War should be arrived at between those representing different interests and parties in Ireland. I believe, as I have already said, that in Ireland itself there is a deep and genuine desire to obtain such an agreement. The Government—I speak for all my colleagues—some of us in the past have taken the most diverse possible views in regard to questions of Irish government — the Government are anxious and more than anxious to do everything in their power to facilitate such a happy result. At the unanimous request of his colleagues my right hon. Friend who sits beside me, the Minister of Munitions (Mr. Lloyd George), has undertaken to devote his time and his energies and his power to the promotion of that result. He has already put himself in communication with the authorised representatives and exponents of the views of the different Irish parties. And if there be, as I believe there is—I do not underrate the difficulties in the least degree—if there be, as I believe there is, among Irishmen, no less than among the people of Great Britain, an honest and resolute desire to take advantage of this opportunity for the obtainment of that which, to us as a nation and an Empire I do not hesitate to say is the greatest boon that could possibly be achieved, I cannot but hope that my right hon. Friend in his mission of peace and reconciliation and of possible unity will not only carry with it the good wishes, the ardent hopes, of all Members in every quarter of this House, but something more—I believe that such a result can and ought to be attained. I venture to make this appeal to all sections of the House to abstain, even under the limited and fettered conditions which the Consolidated Fund Bill will afford us, from any immediate discussion of the Irish situation, and from the use of any language, in any quarter, calculated to increase the difficulties—serious, but, in our hope and in our belief, not insurmountable—in the way of a great and lasting settlement.
May I, with the indulgence of the House, say two or three brief words. The Prime Minister has made a very serious and a very solemn appeal to this House. The net effect of his appeal is that, even on the Consolidated Fund Bill, upon which it would be possible to discuss military affairs in Ireland, Members should remain silent for the moment. That is applying, to my colleagues and myself, a very severe test. There are things going on in Ireland that we think, under ordinary circumstances, ought to be discussed at the earliest possible moment. But I regard the appeal of the Prime Minister as a test of the genuineness of our desire for a settlement now of this great problem, and for my part I could not for a moment take the responsibility of not responding to that appeal. Further than that I say nothing, except that if this new effort on the part of the Government, placed as it now is in such able and energetic hands, fails, as I hope and pray it may not fail, the fault will not lie on unreasonable conduct or action of my colleagues or myself.
Perhaps I may be allowed to say one or two words on the subject. We are prepared to avoid any one word that would discourage any effort to save the situation, no matter from what quarter it came. We are not going now to debate the question within the limits within which I hold it is right to have it discussed. I say at once that I will bow, that I must bow, to the appeal for silence which the Prime Minister has made. But I feel bound to say that what has happened here to-night will be received with profound disappointment in Ireland, as a proof of the continuance of the policy of organised suppression of free speech which is responsible for three-fourths of the guilt of the recent rebellion in Ireland.
I only desire to say one word, and it is that I willingly adopt the suggestion of the Prime Minister that we should not enter into any discussion which might lead to anything of a provocative nature. Indeed, if you enter into these discussions at all, it is very hard to draw the line, the border line, as to where a provocative speech commences and ends. May I say this, if the House will allow me, that I think the Press do a very ill-service to the cause that the Prime Minister has in view in trying to raise provocative questions in relation to Ireland at the present moment. Since this terrible calamity came upon Ireland I have found great difficulty myself in restraining my own feelings as regards attacks that are daily made, and challenges that are daily made, in the Press, and, whenever I have felt inclined to answer them, I have always said to myself, "Remember that there is a War going on, in which your country is involved."
Mr. GINNELL rose— [HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"] May I ask, Mr. Speaker, whether you expect the House and the public to consider your action impartial?
I think they will consider it wise.
NAVAL AND MILITARY SERVICES (PENSIONS AND GRANTS).
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
There are some subjects which can be raised on the Second Reading of this Bill which I hope the House will take an opportunity of debating, now that we cannot discuss the question of Ireland. The House probably, after the statement of the Prime Minister, is not in the kind of humour which will enable all Members to discuss questions which, after all, are vital to a great many people in the country. But there is one question which might be discussed now—I refer to the treatment of our soldiers and sailors by the Charity Commissioners acting under the Statutory Committee of the Naval and Military Army Act. We have tried, a number of us, in this House from time to time to secure the discussion of this important topic at a time when public attention could be called to it. I see on the Front Bench the Financial Secretary to the War Office, who is acquainted with all these problems, and I hope he may be able to reply to the few questions which I propose to address to him. The House will remember that some very considerable time ago the question arose as to what pension ought to be payable to a soldier or sailor who was discharged from the Service on account of disease contracted in the Service, or aggravated by the Service, and it was felt that the full pension could not be paid to that soldier or that sailor. My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary then stated that the Government had agreed, in those cases, that a pension equivalent to four-fifths of the full pension should be paid to these men. Several of us asked questions as to whether, in the event of the death of the soldier or sailor, the pension would be payable to the widow or other dependants of the man. The reply of the Financial Secretary to the War Office at that time was that we would not know the details until the issue of the new Royal Warrant.
For the last month or six weeks questions have been put on the Paper to my hon. Friend asking him when the Royal Warrant would be published, and up to to-day, within four days of the Whitsuntide Recess, the Royal Warrant has not seen the light of day. In a conversation my hon. Friend gave some reasons why up to the present moment it had been impossible to issue the Royal Warrant, and at the same time he informed me that he could not give me any hope that the Royal Warrant would be issued before Thursday to enable us to discuss this matter before the Whitsuntide Recess. I would not labour this so continuously and so persistently if it were not for the fact that there is a large number of people suffering from lack of information with regard to this important question. In last night's Debate the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board complained, and I think complained unjustly, that we did not give the Government credit for the amount of pension payable to our discharged soldiers and sailors. Let me assure my hon. Friend at once that we agree that the pensions are not only substantial and generous, but are higher than the pensions given in any part of the civilised world. What we do complain about is not the amount of the pensions, but the niggardly administration of those pensions by the Chelsea Commissioners. For instance, I want to know how the Chelsea Commissioners settle these points. We in the House have determined that a soldier discharged from the Army totally disabled is entitled, on certain grounds, to 25s. per week, with 2s. 6d. for each child, and in the case of a partially disabled soldier to the difference between 25s. per week, and what he can make, and there is as well a discretionary allowance of 2s. 6d. for each child. On that assumption the feeling that is left in the mind of the House and the country is that those men are going to get the substantial part of £1 or 25s. What do we find in practice? When those men's cases are laid before the Chelsea Commissioners, they get pensions amounting to as low a sum as 8d. per day, or 4s. 8d. per week.
Last night I produced a case in which a man discharged from the Army, after months of service, with chronic bronchitis, and who is now a consumptive patient, and who is a widower with one child, and who is in receipt of a pension of 4s. 8d. per week That man has since been discharged incurable from the sanatorium to which he found access. He is living in lodgings, and is responsible for the upkeep and upbringing of his girl of eight years of age. This House, by its Pension Committee, stated that the scale for a man of that kind was to be 25s. per week if totally disabled, and 2s. 6d. for each child, but instead of 27s. 6d. per week he is in receipt of 4s. 8d. There may be good reasons why he is only getting that amount, but all I am ever told when I address myself to the Chelsea Commissioners is that they have considered all the circumstances, and that they find that this man did not contract this disease in the Army, or that it was not aggravated in the Army, and that, therefore, that it is all the pension they can give him. I imagine that the average Member of this House is able to ascertain whether the man did or did not acquire his disease in the Service. The datum line in all these cases is this. Take the case I have just mentioned. The man was accepted by the military as medically fit. They used his services for months in the Army, and he was then discharged suffering from chronic bronchitis. The medical officer must have been deficient in his ability to discover what this particular man was suffering from. If they said he was suffering from bronchitis, I could understand, but they discharge him as suffering from chronic bronchitis, which means that the disease must have existed for some time. Therefore, the medical officer was no use when he passed that man into the Army fit, but when he did pass him as fit, and after using him for all these months, I say it is a shame that the man should be scrapped, and should be left in a condition where he possibly cannot recover his health, and given a pension of 4s. 8d. per week. The House never meant that and the nation never meant that. If that is the generosity of administration typical of the Chelsea Commissioners, the sooner they are abolished root and branch, and the administration of these pensions put in the hands of some Department at which we can get more easily in this House, the better. It is absurd after this House has come to generous conclusions that the administration of these pensions should be so far removed from the House as the Chelsea Commissioners, and that the only way we can get at the administration of the Chelsea Commissioners is through the Under-Secretary, who has himself to get his information from the very people whose administration we are seeking to criticise.
I am one of them.
I would scarcely have credited that, knowing the generosity of the hon. Gentleman and his sympathetic treatment of all cases that are brought to his notice. Take this point a step further. In the case of the soldier who is discharged on account of disease contracted in the Army, I asked, supposing that man dies as a result of that disease, what will his wife and children get? At the present moment they are not entitled to a single penny. The man himself may get four-fifths of the maximum pension, although we know that in practice he gets very much less. I asked my hon. Friend, and he received the suggestion quite sympathetically, would it not be possible in a case of that kind to secure that the widow and the children should get the four-fifths pension rate that was being given to the man who was discharged because he had contracted the disease? They seemed to me to be fair. The widow and the children of a man who is killed in battle get the scale which we have laid down in this House. My hon. Friend and the Government suggested that they could not be so generous where a man was discharged on account of disease. I gave them that point, but I asked that the dependants should get the benefit of the four-fifths rate. I feel so keenly about this question that I seized the opportunity just now when the House was disturbed over the Irish question, seeing we could not discuss it, because I feel perfectly certain that this is a problem which touches everybody so intimately that it is worth while for the House of Commons to devote an hour or two to its discussion in the early part of the sitting. I am very glad to see in the House some Members who have before contributed to Debates of this kind, and who have knowledge of their own of these problems, and who will welcome, I hope, the opportunity of raising this question at this time.
There are a great many other points which one could address to the Financial Secretary, and about which one is continually talking to him in conversation. I think the most urgent case at the moment is this: How far has he got this Royal Warrant? Has he succeeded in the Royal Warrant in translating into scale payments the promise of the four-fifths pension? Can he tell us how the Chelsea Commissioners do arrive at those conclusions in face of the facts which are supplied to them, and will he, despite the fact that he may think it is done quite properly, extend even yet further the sympathetic treatment which he has previously extended to many cases? There are the dire cases of many of these soldiers, which arises from the fact that they are discharged with a very small pension, with no hope of getting any kind of work, with small families to bring up, and with no outlook at all. I am perfectly certain that the Financial Secretary and the House want those men to have some outlook, and I think, either for the service which they have offered or rendered, or which they would have rendered if their health had held out, that the House will in the end, as a result of these discussions, arrive at a point when we shall get some satisfactory settlement of this big question.
I fully agree with the greater part of the appeal which the hon. Member for East Edinburgh has made, and I am sure the general desire is that these disabled men should be treated with generosity. I desire to raise another point, and that is the position of soldiers who are discharged from the Army either on account of illness or from the strain of active service, and who return to civil life without any evidence that they have served in the Army in this War.
They have got uniforms.
When a man is discharged the uniform is taken away. The matter is of some importance, and I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to give it his consideration. I have come across men who were to all appearance quite fit, and I put the question to them why they were not in uniform. In a case of that kind quite recently the man told me he had been in the Army, although he had not seen service in the War, and that he had been invalided out of the Army on account of rheumatism. There was no sign or indication by which anyone could know that that man had served his country during the present crisis. If something is not done by the giving of some distinctive badge or ribbon to these men you are, I submit, doing them a great injustice. I have no doubt the Financial Secretary will reply on the subject of pensions, and I would urge this matter on the attention of the Under-Secretary. I think that when these men who have given service are discharged on account of illness that they should receive a medal which would be accompanied by a ribbon. If that were done it would be open to all to see that they had served their country. I think this recognition has been too long delayed, and I hope the omission will soon be remedied.
I desire to associate myself with the remarks of the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) and of the hon Member who has just spoken. I think we should do all we can to let the men who have served us see that we recognise not only in a national sense what they have done, but also that we give them some evidence to show that they have served their country. I desire to call attention also to the Chelsea Commissioners. I was rather surprised to find that the Financial Secretary is one of them, and, judging from his personal generosity—
Both of us are members.
Judging from the personal generosity of the Financial Secretary and the Under-Secretary, and the general meanness of the Chelsea Commissioners, I hope that the Financial Secretary and the Under-Secretary are often in a minority, becuse there are very few indications of generosity in the amounts granted by the Commissioners. I find that in my Constituency the sum of 9d. per day is a popular figure, and, being less than an old age pension, it does not seem satisfactory to the people who receive it. Another subject to which I wish to refer is that of men who are sent from the Army and supposed to be discharged, but are forced to walk about the streets for weeks before they get their discharge papers. They are unable to commence work until they have their discharge, but their discharge is delayed. Is it not possible to devise some means whereby that can be remedied? The pay of these men is stopped when they leave the Army, but until they receive their discharge they are unable to go to work, or to receive their usual allowances. If the War Office are unable to discharge these men more readily, can they not pay them until they are discharged? Surely, if you hold these men to their agreement with the Army, they should receive their money until they are discharged. I have been informed by men who came out of the Army only last week that their allowances have been stopped and they have not received their discharge. I have also received a number of complaints with regard to the giving of no definite news of a soldier who may be a prisoner of war, or missing, or dead. A notice is sent to the wife stating that her money is reduced to the amount that it would be if she were a widow. This is rather unpleasant, because the woman does not know whether she is a widow. She is loath to believe that she is, and it seems rather mean on the part of the War Office to reduce the allowance until they are in a position to certify that the soldier has actually been killed. There is a feeling of resentment on the part of the women that you should reduce their pay before you are able to give them definite news. I press these matters with confidence on the representatives of the War Office, because in my personal relations with them I have always received great courtesy, which I have pleasure in acknowledging, and I have every reason to believe that when these cases are brought before them they will give them their usual generous attention.
I agree that something ought to be done with regard to men who have served in the Army and been discharged as unfit for further service. I think that something in the nature of a badge should be given them to show that they have been so discharged. Only today, on the Underground Railway, I heard a conversation between two men. One asked his friend, "What happens to man who has served and been discharged as medically unfit? What has he to show for it?" His friend said, "He can put on an armlet." That is quite wrong, but it shows that the public are thinking about the matter. Something in the nature of a badge or armlet should be given to these men for their protection. I wish also to put the case of a young fellow who joins the Army while his father and mother are alive, and perhaps in good circumstances. When he enlists he states that he has not been in the habit of making them any allowance, so that he makes no allotment and gets his full pay. In process of time the father dies and the mother is left very badly off. The son then wants to make an allotment of 3s. 6d. per week in order that his mother may get the Government grant, but at present he is precluded from doing so. That ought not to be the case. If circumstances change, it ought to be possible for a man to go to his quartermaster and say, "I wish to make an allotment in favour of my dependants." I should like the Under-Secretary of State to consider that point.
I understood that it could be done.
No.
I hope the Financial Secretary will be able to tell us to-day that the matter of the Royal Warrant is going to be settled at once. When we discussed the matter about a month ago, we were distinctly told that nothing could be done without a new Royal Warrant, or some such document. On that occasion, amongst other cases, attention was called to the case of a widow in Brora, Sutherlandshire. We understood then—and, as far as I know, it is the same now—that the auhorities could not grant any pension or allowance to the widow and children if a man was discharged before he died. That seems to me an extraordinary state of affairs. If a man dies while in the Service, his widow gets an allowance, but if the authorities choose to discharge him, then when he dies his widow is entitled to no allowance whatever. I understood that the new Royal Warrant was to cover such cases as that, and I hope we shall get an assurance to-day that that promise is to be carried out. No doubt in some cases pensions have been awarded very favourably, but undoubtedly the policy of the country practically up to the present has not been to award pensions and allowances sufficient to keep these people out of the workhouse. I hope that in future we shall do something to relieve the strain upon these people who are suffering from the War. It has been laid down by some countries that if a man serves his country, if he is not killed, something ought to be done to ensure a decent living for him, while if he is killed, his widow and children, if any, shall receive from the State an allowance to keep them out of the workhouse. This matter has been discussed several times, and at last we thought we had a definite promise from the War Office that the matter would be settled. As far as I know it may be settled, but not yet issued. I hope the Financial Secretary will be able to give us an assurance on that point. I trust, too, that he will be able to tell us that the four-fifths pension will be allowed to the widow and children of a man who dies after his discharge, as is done in other cases. One is as much entitled to it as another. In the case of which I have spoken the matter was made worse because two medical officers had actually certified that there was nothing the matter with the man when he entered the service. In many cases, whereas a man's life and health might be endangered by war service, in his ordinary occupation he might, by taking care of himself, live for many years without any difficulty whatever. War service undoubtedly makes a great difference, and that ought to be taken into consideration. Although disease may not be brought about by war service, it is often accelerated thereby. These are matters in which the House will be bound to take more interest in the future than it has done in the past. We have no right to drive these people to the workhouse. I believe that the nation will be quite willing to provide the necessary funds and to see that they are administered in a proper manner, and not by the granting of 4s. 8d. a week, as in the case referred to by my hon. Friend. It seems ridiculous that there should be so absurd an allowance. I have great faith in the representatives of the War Office on the Treasury Bench, and I hope that they will assure the House and the country that something is going to be done in this matter in the near future.
I desire to support the appeal with reference to men whose health has broken down under training. I believe the Government have done their best to make arrangements for fair treatment in the matter of separation allowances and pensions in the case of men who are injured in actual warfare, or of their dependants if the men are killed. In the case of men whose health breaks down, perhaps owing to the rigour of training, and who are thereby rendered unfit to earn their living, not only should a fair pension be given, but in the case of their death their dependants ought to receive at the hands of the State some compensation for the loss of the breadwinner, because, although he has not been killed on the battlefield, he has nevertheless sacrificed his life in the service of the country. Surely in such cases a responsibility rests on the Government. If their agents, the medical men, pass into the Army a man who may have some incipient disease, or in regard to whom they make a mistake, as doctors, like other people, occasionally do, surely the State is responsible and should pay. I know that the Government have promised consideration with regard to the man himself, but I would ask the Under-Secretary to consider whether something could not be done for the dependants of such a man if he dies, so that a means of livelihood may be assured to them after the loss of the breadwinner. I venture to urge that in view of the Military Service Bill, which is now in process of becoming law, that the claim is all the more important and real. Under that measure, of course, a large number of men will join the Army, not always of their own choice, but, in my opinion, rightly from the call of the country and the necessities of the situation. Surely, therefore, if in the training of the fellows who are compulsorily put into the Army their health breaks down they are entitled not only to consideration from the personal point of view, but also from the claim of those who are dependent upon them? I press this matter on the hon. Gentleman, I have had to go before him with cases of hardship of disabled soldiers, and I am bound to say that he has always shown a desire to meet such cases fairly. But this is a new kind of case, which is becoming more prominent and more general through the new Bill.
There is a very strong feeling, I believe, among all sections of the people that we must deal very differently with the brave fellows, both soldiers and sailors, who are fighting our battle on this occasion to that which has unhappily been the case at the end of previous wars. I believe that the desire of the people is that each and all who are making this self-sacrifice shall be cared for in the proper manner. Just one point more, and that is in reference to separation allowances. There are many cases in which a son has joined the Army who, before he was a soldier, handed over his wages to a common family fund, though it could scarcely be said that he made any direct allowance of a specified amount. Surely the fact that a portion of his earnings was not specifically handed over to his parents towards their assistance should not debar those parents from receiving separation allowance? A common-sense calculation would easily make manifest how much of the total of the wages devoted to the maintenance of the common household was really his contribution, and it ought to represent a sum that should be granted as separation allowance. I mention these matters to the hon. Gentleman, knowing how anxious he is to deal justly with our soldiers and sailors, and I speak with confidence, because a case has been made out for the dependants of the men who lose their lives through disease contracted in the Army. Care should be taken that these men have not to resort to the workhouse for maintenance. I believe the hon. Gentleman will be interpreting the wishes of the people generally if he does something substantial to meet the cases put before him.
I desire to join in this appeal for more generous treatment—no, not for more generous treatment, but for more just and equitable treatment—for these men. The proverb has it that we ought "to be just before we are generous." This is a case in which I am convinced that we are neither just nor generous in the treatment that is being meted out. The appeal is directed, not to the hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary to the War Office, but through him to the Government. The general tone of the discussion, so far, has not involved any criticism at all of the attitude of the hon. Gentleman. I have brought many cases of various kinds before him, and I have always found that they have received prompt and detailed investigation. I have no complaint whatever to make in regard to the manner in which these cases have been handled. The appeal is made on behalf, not of those men who have been wounded, or those men who have been injured as the result of some accident in the course of their military employment. It is made on behalf of men whose health has been broken in the course of their military service. It is often difficult to trace the exact cause of this breakdown in health. It may be vague and general. These are men who were fulfilling their daily occupations before the War, and found no difficulty in doing so. They were earning good wages. In the Army they have been living under completely different conditions. They have been subject to training—which is a severe test for a man if there are any latent weaknesses in his constitution. They have also been subject to an exposure to which they are not subjected in their daily life, and in their daily occupation in civil life. No one can deny that even in the summer, even in good weather, living in a tent pitched in the fields is very different from living in the house to which one has been accustomed.
Not always!
It depends on whether the conditions of the tent were comfortable or otherwise. If the hon. Gentleman had had his tent pitched on ground where it was damp, even if it was not very rainy weather, he might suffer severe consequences from living under these damp conditions.
I have slept very many months in a tent, on not at all dry ground.
Then my hon. Friend has a sound constitution. Supposing that he had been liable to rheumatism he would very probably have developed severe rheumatism, which he would never have developed if he had been living in a house and pursuing his own work. That is just our case. The appeal is on behalf of men whose health has broken down in the course of their military service. For long I have had cases of this kind before me. I have often been very much tempted to raise them in the House, but I have refrained from the thought that a public discussion of these matters was not for some reasons to be desired; and because of the effect it might have upon recruiting at the time when our utmost need was for more men. That reason does not exist now. Men are enlisted compulsorily; therefore one can now speak more freely on this subject.
I want to take one particular case to which my attention has been specially directed, and in connection with which I have had a long correspondence with the hon. Gentleman. The case, I think, is typical, and it illustrates a class of cases. The case is that of Driver John Dickson, R.F.A., of Glasgow, who enlisted at the beginning of August and was discharged in April, after eight months' service. The discharge was on account of rheumatic heart. He alleged that he had slept for some weeks in a damp tent. He was seriously ill prior to his discharge. After his discharge he returned to his civil work as a holder-on at the shipyard, but he was only able to work for two days, when he collapsed. He has since for a considerable time been in hospital, and he is still unable to work. I have thoroughly investigated this case. I have consulted the man's insurance doctor, who says that he had no previous evidence of any disease of this kind, and that the disease in its present phase is thoroughly compatible with the man's statement of having been incurred during his military service and through the cause stated. The doctor further certifies—and is very emphatic about it—that this man is not shamming, that he is in a very serious condition now, and that he is incapable of carrying on the work which he previously carried on—or, indeed, any work. What are the grounds upon which this man has been refused a pension. It was refused, in the first place, on the ground that there was no evidence that his injury was due to military service. When I called attention to the report of the local medical man, I received a reply. Here is a sentence from the reply of the hon. Gentleman. Mark, I am not complaining in the very slightest about the attitude of the hon. Gentleman! He said: I have consulted the commanding officer as to whether Dickson hart been subjected to any exceptional exposure. 5.0 P.M.
Now that seems to be the wrong attitude. It is not whether or not the man was subjected to exceptional exposure. Quite ordinary exposure, living under conditions different from his usual conditions, living in a tent, living subject to continued and severe military training—these were probably the ostensible causes of his collapse so far as anyone can see. That was the objection I raised to that representation. After some months—for it took some time naturally to consult his commanding officer, who is at the front now—it was reported that the brigade were in tents for some time at the end of September and the beginning of October, 1914. The weather, it appears, was fine during this period, and there were no special hardships. On these grounds the man was refused any pension. He is now completely destitute. His family is destitute. He has come from hospital, is not able to work, and he has applied for poor relief. The Poor Law authorities have delayed week after week in the hope that some pension might be given by the Government. I am convinced from the previous history of this case, and also from the man's previous records, from the fact that he conducted his work without any difficulty — and the work of a holder-on in a shipyard is arduous work—that there was no evidence of this disease before, and that he has broken down in the Service, that he is now absolutely incapable of carrying on any work, that he is destitute, and that his family are destitute. I am convinced that this is a case in which the man ought to be compensated. That man has been broken in our wars. He has given his body for us. Although it is possible that under the stress of the War, and while it is going on, we may not be able to secure adequate compensation for this man, yet there are such a number of these cases that, as soon as the immediate preoccupation of the War is disposed of, the Government will be forced, by the pressure of public opinion, to make some concession in this matter. I would point out that there are many cases just now occurring in which men who are notoriously medically unfit are being taken into the Army for service of some kind. I have two cases of men passed by the medical board or medical officer. In both of those cases I have medical officers' certificates that those men were incapable of military service, and, if forced to undergo it, within a few weeks or a few months they would break down. I took what steps seemed to me justified in the circumstances. In both cases immediately I lodged a claim for pension before they had suffered, on the ground that it was certified by the medical officers that those men would break down under the strain even of service in the third class I am happy to say that that claim being made, further attention was directed to it, and both men have been released from the Army as medically unfit. I think in the past there were many cases which ought to have been released if there had been fuller inspection. These men were quite fit for ordinary avocations and employment where they can take care, and they might still be able to carry on the work, if they had not been subjected to the strain of military service.
I notice that the hon. Member who has just spoken put forward a claim on behalf of his friend for a pension before there was any damage done at all, and I must congratulate him on the foresight, which is notoriously characteristic of those who live North of the Tweed. Now, may I join in thanking the Financial Secretary to the War Office for the very courteous treatment he has always given us when we have come to him for consideration of cases, and also for, if I may say so, even straining the Regulations in order to give as much as possible to these men? We all know that, if it were left to him, the scale of pensions would be considerably higher, and that it is only because the Treasury bars the way that a larger amount of money does not flow out to these men. In one sentence, may I support the plea put forward by the hon. Gentleman in reference to the allowances to these men and their families? I do so for one simple reason. I think that now you have general compulsion the State is bound, when you oblige men to come in in large numbers to the Army, and not of their own free will, to be still more generous in its allowances. Of course, if you compel a man to do a thing, you are bound to see that if he does suffer he will be rewarded and his relatives shall be properly looked after.
Very briefly may I ask the attention of the Under-Secretary of State for War to a matter which I have brought to his notice during Question Time lately—namely, the cessation of medical examination of recruits who have joined second-line units? If I understand the position correctly, certainly in the Southern Command, and I believe all over England, the custom was, up to about a fortnight or three weeks ago, that on joining the second-line units all recruits were medically examined by the medical officer in charge of the unit, and that seems to me a very sensible and businesslike procedure. They were no doubt passed by the medical officer when they attested, or the medical board, as the case may be, but medical boards and medical officers are human, like other people, and undoubtedly many men were passed into the Army who were not medically fit, and certainly not fit for general service. That is a matter of common knowledge. We are paying for a great number of men in the Army who will never be any use to the Army, and the only use they could possibly be to the nation would be to send them back to civil life as soon as possible, where they could make some money. We had this second line of defence for the taxpayer, if I may put it in that way, in the second medical inspection of the medical officer of the unit, and undoubtedly this did increase the meshes of the sieve, and prevented many unfit men being taken for the second-line units, or rather, I should say, when taken in they were turned out again as soon as allowed, because it is notorious that many medical men of units are applying to the War Office to get their unfit discharged; but they cannot, because, for some inscrutable reason, some people at the War Office, whoever they are, have a great love for inflated numbers on paper, and they think the defence of England is easier if they have this number of unfit men, and they will not allow these men, who are costing thousands of pounds daily, to be discharged.
With reference to the particular form of medical examination for Second Line units, I am informed by an hon. Friend in this House, who is also a soldier, that about three weeks ago an officer very high in the medical hierarchy at the War Office came down to the Southern Command at Winchester, assembled all the doctors belonging to the Second Line units, asked them why they were examining these recruits when they had been examined by a medical board, considered the medical board was quite sufficient, and that they were interfering with business which was not theirs, and he ordered them as their superior officer in the medical profession to cease those examinations at once. Within a week an order was issued by the War Office which came down to the Southern Command that on no account was any medical examination of recruits to take place by the medical officers in charge of units, because the War Office considered it unnecessary. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman as a business man, as a man of the world, to put it to himself what possible advantage to the nation can there be by this order? The medical officer is attached to a unit; he is paid, he is fed, and he is not in these times greatly overworked in these Second Line units. As he is there and is being paid, and must be paid, whether examining recruits or not, why, in the name of common sense, do you not allow him to go on in the old practice of examining those men when they come up, and to make a report on his own ipse dixit, and, if you like, report at once to the War Office that in his opinion certain men who have been passed by a board, by mistake, no doubt, are unfit, and get rid of them as soon as possible? Is a man to be dragged through three or four months of military training, then sent to hospital, and then medically examined, when the medical officer may make a report with a view, not of having the man discharged, but to wait until one of those travelling medical boards chooses to come round in a leisurely way and release the man?
I am not arguing this from the man's point of view, though I think there is a great deal to be said from that point of view, but I am arguing it from the national point of view, and I do strongly object, and I believe many hon. Members also object, to this waste of public money, which is entirely unnecessary. The man can be no good to the nation, and it is simply because the War Office chooses to procrastinate, and certain high medical officers there consider their dignity is lowered by anyone thinking to question for a moment the verdict of their own medical board. I will not bother the House with examples. I do not know if the right hon. Gentleman has a letter I sent him, giving several examples, but two examples came under my notice only yesterday. One was the case of a man, who is a cripple, in Sussex. He has to join next week. He has one leg shorter than the other, and he cannot walk more than a hundred yards without a stick. He has been passed for general service—that is to say, in France. An hon. Member says there are lots of cases like that. The board may have made a mistake—I dare say they did—but I say if you allow the medical officer of the unit to re-examine, mistakes will be rectified, and the man will not have to spend four or five months in training and be a great cost to the nation for no purpose. Therefore, I do appeal to the right hon. Gentleman. I do not bring this matter forward in criticism. The right hon. Gentleman cannot know everything, but do let him see if the old and much better practice cannot be revived.
I should like to support the observations of the hon. Member. I have had very many cases of the same kind which I have brought before the Under-Secretary, and I am bound to say he has always treated them with the greatest consideration and me with the greatest courtesy. But, from the national point of view, it is of the greatest disservice to the country. These men are kept in the Army medically unfit in many cases, when they could be of great use to the productive power of the country. As it is, we are spending our money upon them when they know themselves that it is wasting the country's money—many a man has written to that effect—and he is not a productive unit at a time when there is such a scarcity of labour. The Army cannot be bettered by having such men within it, and I do hope the observations made by the hon. Gentleman opposite will have the very careful consideration of the Under-Secretary.
Another question I wish to bring before the right hon. Gentleman is of rather a special character, where young men joined the Army who were sons of parents in quite good circumstances, but since the son has joined the Army the father may have died, and indeed in some cases, of which one knows, he has died, and the whole circumstances of the family may have changed. Under the present system—of course, the boy did not make an allotment prior to joining the Army—he is now not able to make an allotment, although the family circumstances may be changed,, and therefore the family is suffering very severely for want of funds. I think this is a case which the War Office might very well meet, but if, owing to their regulations, it is impossible for them to meet it, the Chelsea Commissioners or the Statutory Committee ought to deal with it in a generous and liberal manner. At any rate, provision should be made by the Government, because if there is one thing on which the country is determined more than another it is that our soldiers and their dependants shall have support during this War.
The last matter I wish to make an observation upon is that some medal or ribbon or other kind of reward should be given to soldiers who have passed out of the Army. This War is different from all other wars of which we have had any cognisance personally. In the South African War all medals were distributed after the war was over, but the numbers engaged were not so great as in the present War, and, now that we have compulsion, I think it is more than ever necessary that some consideration should be given to those men who have passed through the War and are now back in civil life. I beg the Under-Secretary of State for War to consider this matter and to consider it favourably.
MEN CALLED TO COLOURS (CIVIL LIABILITIES).
I wish to join in the appeal that has been made by other Members of the House to the Government to give fair, good, and generous consideration to the claims of men who have broken down in the Service, and I am going to ask the Financial Secretary to take to heart what the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board said last night. He said last night, in dealing with the claims of men who may join the Army and ask for assistance for rent, school fees, and other things, it is suggested that the Commissioners are going to consider those cases, and that if there is a doubt they are going to give the claimant the benefit of it. In connection with these people who break down in health in the Army and who are discharged from the Army, we should also give them the benefit of the doubt. Do not compel them to prove that their health broke down owing to being in the Army. I wish to join in what has been said about the careful and very considerate manner in which the Under-Secretary for War and the Financial Secretary have gone into every case which I have brought before their notice. But I would like to point out that there might be some attempt made to prevent anomalies in regard to the amount of the pensions granted. I have had cases where mothers have lost sons under exactly the same circumstances, and yet the pensions have been different. I think there ought to be some uniformity in connection with the amount granted to the mothers whose sons have been killed in the War. I know it is difficult to have absolute equity in these matters, but I suggest that some handbook or circular laying down the conditions under which pensions are granted should be issued. A friend of mine who was making an application said he had found that the circulars dealing with pensions referred him to Order So-and-so, and he found that what was stated in the Order contradicted the information given in the circular. If some common-sense circular could be issued it would be a guide to everybody, and it would be of immense benefit, not only to the applicant, but to the Government as well.
I also wish to support the remarks made with regard to the taking into the Army of men medically unfit. I had two cases sent to me this morning, and the examination of these men took place on Tuesday last. In one of them the man had been suffering for eight or nine years from double hernia. He was examined by the medical board in Battersea, and they said that if he underwent an operation he would be fit for service, and they have actually passed him for foreign garrison duty. Another man who was examined at the same time by the same medical board, and was suffering from a bad single hernia, has also been passed for garrison duty. Doctors who will pass men of this kind are not fit for their position, and they ought not to be paid for such cases. I think the Government should put their foot down on examinations of this kind, and declare that doctors must not pass such men into the Army. It only means that these men will undoubtedly break down abroad, and will become a source of unnecessary expense, and they will require attention when they are discharged from the Army. I have had a large number of complaints regarding the period which elapses between a man being discharged and actually getting his discharge, or his insurance book, and in this way he is prevented from getting employment. Something ought to be done to expedite the handing over to these men of their insurance books.
There is another matter in regard to which I have already had a chat with the Financial Secretary, and it applies to the different rates of pay that obtain at the present time in the rural districts in regard to the manufacture of aeroplanes and the parts of aeroplanes. There are firms manufacturing aeroplanes and parts, and they pay from 11½d. per hour to the men doing the woodwork. We must remember that the woodwork, or some of it, is of a very delicate nature, and it has to be very carefully balanced, or the machine is soon out of order or will not work at all. Other firms manufacturing aeroplanes for the Government and parts are paid from 1d. to 2½d. per hour less than the men who are doing the same kind of work for the Government. I am told that the Government is paying a fixed scheduled price, and if that is so then the firms I refer to are either robbing the workmen or the nation. What I am insisting upon is only in accordance with the Fair Wages Clause. This is a new industry in the course of development and there is no rate fixed, but they should take the Fair Wages Clause and see that the wages paid are those paid by the best firms. If that course were adopted we should have a great deal more contentment and satisfaction amongst the men engaged in the manufacture of aeroplanes and aeroplane parts at the present time. I may point out that it is taking the officials of the trade unions all their time to keep their men at work on account of dissatisfaction, and unless something is done very soon the War Office can rest satisfied that there is going to be trouble of some kind or another with regard to this matter. I hope that this question of equality of wages in doing Government work will receive the careful and best attention of the Financial Secretary to the War Office.
I wish to ask the Under-Secretary for War if he can tell us, when he rises to reply to this Debate, what is the meaning of the retention of so many unfit men in the service. If any reason can be given for it then we can realise what is the necessity for it. We hear on all sides about these unfit men. Only the other day an hon. Member stated that in the drafting battalion to which he belonged they were dealing with many men who had been rejected for service abroad. We want a number of drafts to keep up our battalions abroad, but we do not want unfit men. I heard of a division which was preparing to go abroad, and I heard it stated that only 35 per cent. of the men were fit to be trained, 35 per cent. will require three months' nursing and careful handling before they are fit to be trained, and the remaining 30 per cent. will have to be discharged altogether. Now is it not better to discharge that 30 per cent. and not keep them on? Now that the Military Service Bill has been passed I see no necessity for having an abnormal number of unfit men in the Army. We only need a sufficient number of these men to keep up our garrison strength, and all the rest are better in civil employment. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to tell us is there any special reason why these men should be kept, and, if not, will he try to bring in some measure to keep them out of the Service and replace them by fit men?
My hon. Friend the Member for the Wellington Division (Sir C. Henry) raised a point of great interest to the House in regard to giving some mark of distinction to those soldiers who have been dismissed the Service owing to illness, or wounds, or some other cause of disability. I suggested that it might be possible for the brassard to be granted to these men, but my hon. Friend did not seem to think that that would be a sufficient mark of distinction for them, and he suggested a medal. As the House is aware, a medal is given for special service, and I could not possibly give an answer to that point committing the Government in any way in that direction. My hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Peto) has asked me several questions about granting medals in this war, and I can assure him that the matter is engaging the careful attention of the Government. I understand that the Prime Minister is going to make a statement conveying the decision of the Government in the usual manner on that subject. With regard to the men who have been invalided out of the Service who joined the Service at the beginning of the War and who gave no service and have been in hospital ever since they enlisted in August, 1914, when they joined in considerable numbers, and who really have rendered no service to the State, I think it would be a prostitution of the medal to give such men this decoration. If we did this we should be granting a decoration to men who have not really done the service which the medal would lead people to suppose they had done. I should have thought that a brassard was not an unsuitable decoration for men in the Service if they have not really been the heroes that some of our men have been. The matter is now under discussion, and I do not think that I can say more than that it is engaging the attention of the Government as a whole.
The hon. Member for Blackpool (Mr. Ashley) has brought to the attention of the House a certain change of procedure in the medical examination of recruits after they have been brought into the Service. I think he directed my attention to this matter at Question time. I am not really able to give any further reason for the alteration than I have already given. The medical board which has been set up, I am assured, is a more efficient body than the body which originally passed recruits into the Army. The standard for general service is as high as it was at the beginning of the War and in peace time. It has not been lowered, which I know is universally disbelieved and particularly by hon. Gentlemen in this House. I will give my hon. Friend an illustration. My Noble Friend the Secretary of State for War received a complaint from the lord-lieutenant of a county that considerable numbers of unfit men had been drafted into two certain battalions in that county. Lord Kitchener sent down, first of all, the surgeon-general, and then another general officer, to inquire into this particular case, and the answer came back from both of those officers that the lord-lieutenant had got hold of a mare's nest. I do not know whether that is typical of all the cases which have been brought to my notice. I am bound to say that they come from so many and from such diverse sources and from so many quarters that I am constrained to believe there may be something in them. The reason for not considering it essential in all cases that a recruit should be examined by the battalion medical officer as well as the medical board is to save time, to economise, and also to demonstrate that the Army believes in its medical board. If you do not believe in the medical board, then get one in which you do believe. I would say, further, that if a recruit is discovered not to be up to the standard which is considered proper for general service, then he ought to be examined. If there is anything wrong he ought to be examined. I suppose my hon. Friend would say that he ought never to be put into the Army.
Could not we compromise? Supposing a company officer discovers a man in his draft not able to under go the training, could he not bring it to the notice of the medical officer with a view to his being examined?
I can certainly promise, where the medical officer of a battalion notices that any particular recruit is unable to undergo the strain of training for foreign service that the man will be examined by the medical officer. That, indeed, is the constant and continual practice. The hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Tyson Wilson) announced that a medical officer, forsooth, has been rash enough to pass into the Army for garrison duty two men who had hernia. It has been decided by the military medical authorities, after taking counsel with the greatest civilian doctors in this city, that men with hernia, properly supplied with trusses, are perfectly able to undertake garrison duty abroad, and anybody who is acquainted with friends suffering from that disability knows that they are perfectly able to undertake that duty. I have had servants of mine who have been able to do a very fine day's work although suffering from hernia, and it would be a mistake to reject at sight everybody who has hernia. I know many such men who have been rejected on account of that fact, but who would be very anxious to undertake military service.
I should like to disabuse the minds of hon. Gentlemen who consider that the Army has been taking in the maimed, the halt, and the blind in order to swell the numbers of the Army. There never was a greater mistake made. There is absolutely no desire to take men who are not fit, and, as I have explained before, you now have your men graded for certain classes of work, and garrison duty abroad is the lowest but two. Clerical work at home is the first, garrison duty at home is the second, and garrison duty abroad is the third. Then you come to certain forms of work and labour, and finally to general service, as requiring the most efficient physique. It really would be a mistake if the House were not to encourage the Army Council in that policy. It is the greatest saving of man power; it is the most economical manner in which we can employ the man power of the Army; and because we pass into the Army for garrison duty abroad men with hernia, I do not think we ought to be charged with the folly in which my hon. Friend tried to make the House believe we were indulging. The proper perspective in which to view this particular question is to look at it from the national standpoint, as my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool looks at it. I am glad that he adopts that view, and I shall certainly do all that I can to uphold the view he takes. It is highly undesirable that we should have in the Army men who are unfit for the service to which they are to be allotted, and I can assure the House that the Army Council have no desire to pass into the ranks men unfitted for the duties they will be called upon to perform.
May I ask whether the Army Council is prepared to take one-eyed men for rifle practice and for fighting in the trenches at the front, because there are cases within my own knowledge where such men are being taken. The man suffers very severely because of the conditions of his service, and one does feel inclined to doubt whether this kind of man can be made an efficient fighter.
If my hon. Friend puts that question to me, I should say: Yes, it is perfectly possible, and I have known cases myself. The hon. Member for Lewisham, the late Mr. Penn, was one of the most efficient men behind the gun I ever saw in my life, and he had only one eye. He was a most beautiful shot. I have known another man. The Army are not refusing to take men because they have only got one eye.
I rise to make an appeal to the Financial Secretary to the War Office which I have made to him on more than one occasion before. I do not know that I should have risen on this occasion, but I have been moved to do so by the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for one of the Divisions of Manchester (Mr. Needham), who called attention to a particular case bearing on the general case that I have raised in this House. He pointed out that there was a lad whose father, when he went into the Army, was quite able to take care of the family. The father then died, and the family was no longer provided for. The lad, however, was not able to secure, separation allowance for his mother, because it was said that she had not been dependent upon him. The reason for that was that she did not need his support at that time. There are cases where the family circumstances have changed in a similar way without the death of the father. There are cases, for instance, where the son of a widow did not support his mother before, but where after he had been a certain number of months in the Army the circumstances changed, and she needed support from him, but he was not able to get separation allowance for her. He might, indeed, make her an allotment of 3s. 6d., but that was the extent of the support he could give her. Then there was the case of the apprentice, where the lad was learning his business, and where the mother was supporting him until such time as he would be out of his time. Afterwards, perhaps, she was unable to support herself any longer, but she was not able to get any separation allowance, because she had not been actually dependent upon the lad before he went into the Army. This is really a very great hardship. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to put the matter right. You have at present two lads serving side by side whose family circumstances at home are very much the same. One lad, besides his pay, is getting dependant's allowance for his mother, but the other, whose mother needs it just as much, is quite unable to get dependant's allowance, because of this principle of pre-enlistment dependence. I know the right hon. Gentleman has told us several times that it does not rest with him to change this principle, but private Members, especially in these times, have very limited powers, and I do appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, who I am perfectly certain deals with all these questions fairly and in a most courteous manner, to use his influence and to have this wrong principle altered. I do not suggest that anything indiscriminate should be done, or that every soldier who did not secure a separation allowance when he first joined the Army should be at liberty subsequently to secure a separation allowance without inquiry into his case, but I do suggest that there should be some special committee to inquire into applications of this sort, and that where good cause can be shown for a departure from this principle, special permission should be granted for a separation allowance on the same basis as if there had been actual dependence before the lad enlisted. If the right hon. Gentleman will give his attention to the question, I am sure that he will be conferring a great boon upon many suffering people whose young folk have given themselves to the service of the country.
I make no complaint at all, of course, that the subject has been raised to-day, because I know it is one which engages the attention of hon. Members to a very special degree, but with the exception of one or two matters the ground which has been traversed is very familiar. I have listened to a great number of speeches in the course of the last twelve months on the questions which have been touched upon, and I have endeavoured to make quite clear what we do, why we do it, and the reason why we cannot do more. The hon. Gentleman has raised the question of pre-war dependence. I admit that hardship is occasioned to many families by reason of the fact that the assessment of the separation allowances must depend upon pre-enlistment dependence. My hon. Friend said, in view of that hardship I ought to have appointed a committee to examine into those cases and, in cases where hardship is proved, to make some additional allowance. I would remind my hon. Friend that that is exactly what the Government have done. We must adhere, for the purposes of the general issue of separation allowances, to the customary criterion of pre-war dependence, but in order to meet hard cases the Government have called into consultation the Statutory Committee of the Royal Patriotic Fund to deal with them and to give extra allowances where the hardship is proved.
But not a single shilling has been paid yet.
My hon. Friend is aware of the difficulties which have caused the delay that has taken place—first, in the appointment of the Committee, and, secondly, in its getting to work. The delay, I hope, will vanish shortly. I was only calling these things to the recollection of my hon. Friend in order to show that the course that he recommended had been taken. Among the points which break rather fresh ground are, first of all, the question of the widow of a man who has died of disease aggravated, though not caused, by service. My hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) has commented on the long delay which has taken place in the publication of the Royal Warrant dealing with these pensions, which both he and I had hoped would have been published long ago. I should like to take the House into my confidence about what has happened, and how the matter rests. When we were discussing this question, some time ago, I expressed my opinion, for what it was worth, that the grant of the aggravated pension — the four-fifth's scale pensions in cases where the disease had been aggravated by service—must carry with it some corresponding pension to dependants when the man died. When we came to translating the promise into performance, it seemed to me, at any rate, that, although we might, without any great difficulty, give four-fifths of the appropriate pension, there was another aspect of the question that ought fairly to be considered.
There are two categories of aggravation to be borne in mind when we are dealing with diseases that cause death. First, there is the disease which would have been fatal in any case, but the fatal termination of which has been accelerated by service. There is, on the other hand, disease which might not necessarily have been fatal, but has been made fatal by service. It seemed to me that the second category has a stronger claim on the State than the first. Let me give an illustration. Take the case of a man suffering from disease which in any case would have killed him in a couple of years. Owing to the hardships he endured in the course of service he dies within twelve months, and his death has been accelerated by twelve months. On the other hand, you have another man suffering from disease who might have lived another ten or twenty years, but who, owing to the hardships he endured, died within one year. The loss to the dependants is clearly greater in the second case than in the first.
I wanted to see whether we could not, instead of adopting a rigid four-fifths pension, introduce a system of gratuities which might be of greater value to the dependants. Here is where the delay in the publication of the Warrant has been caused. Of course the House will readily understand it does not rest with the War Office. When settling a thing of this kind it has to be discussed with the Treasury, and we have to act, as far as we can possibly, with the Admiralty, and so forth. Delay, therefore, is almost inevitable. We looked closely into the question of gratuities, and it became obvious that the system would necessarily involve most careful reports from various localities on the circumstances of the widow and dependants, and so forth, and it was specially desirable that we should have some careful local body on whose report we could place very great reliance. The matter was referred at once to the new Statutory Committee, and I do not think I am improperly betraying any secrets when I say that this matter is being discussed with great care by the Department, and that the delay which has occurred has been occasioned solely by a desire to do what is really the best and to give the most generous and appropriate treatment to the dependants of these men. We have not come to any definite agreement upon this question, but I am in hope daily we shall reach it, and as soon as we do we shall be able to proceed forthwith with the publication of the Warrant.
Does that apply to cases where a man dies after his discharge?
Yes, it applies to all cases. I hope what I have said will make it quite clear to my hon. Friend that it is not owing to any wilful neglect on our part that the Warrant has not been published. I hope we shall be able to make some useful Amendment in it. If the House will allow me I will pass over the criticisms levied against the Chelsea Commissioners, of whom I am one, on the ground that their administration of things has been the negative of generous. That complaint has been made before. I have endeavoured to meet it on previous occasions, and if I have not convinced my hon. Friend by the many speeches I have made, I am afraid that I am not warranted in hoping for success now.
Our experience does not square with your statements.
I come next to the point raised by the hon. Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. Wing). He raised a question with which I dealt some little time ago—at the beginning of the month—as to the dire straits in which men are placed after their discharge and before their pension is fixed. It was in the first week of this month that I promised we would issue allowances to men pending the fixing of their pensions. It was on the 4th May I made the promise, and already we are making payments in no fewer than 10,000 cases a week. The House will remember that what I promised was that the single men should get 10s. a week and the married men 20s.; that where the pension is greater than the allowance, the allowance shall count toward the pension, that where it is less, the difference shall be written off at the expense of the State, and in the cases where on inquiry no pension is granted we will not endeavour to make any recovery on account of the allowance which has been made. Ten thousand of these allowances are being paid per week. I think the House will see that I have not wasted time in redeeming my promise.
Then the same hon. Member commented on the difficulties which are experienced by the wives of missing men. He said they suddenly found their separation allowances stopped and widows' pensions issued in their place. But I would like to remind my hon. Friend what happens in these cases. When a man is reported missing he is treated as still alive—we hope for the best—for a period of four weeks. At the end of the four weeks for the purposes of his pay and so forth we presume his death, and then for twenty-six weeks from that date the full separation allowance is continued to the wife, as if her widowhood was already an ascertained fact. It is only therefore after the expiration of thirty weeks from the date on which the man is reported missing that the separation allowance comes down to the pension scale. I do not think that is really ungenerous treatment on the part of the State, and possibly my hon. Friend had rather forgotten the full circumstances when he commented on the matter in the way he did.
6.0 P.M.
The hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Tyson Wilson) asked that in dealing with pensions we should give the soldiers the benefit of the doubt. That is exactly what we do in every case. We do give the soldier the benefit of the doubt, and I can assure my hon. Friend that the Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital are always ready to do that. My hon. Friend the Member for Sutherlandshire (Mr. Morton) asked if the widows of men who died after their discharge will get a pension. Yes, they do get pensions in cases where the man dies from wounds received in action, or from disease commencing during or caused by service. The hon. Member mentioned the Brora case. My hon. Friend will remember the reason why the widow in this case has got no pension hitherto has been owing to the fact that it was certified the disease was not caused by service. Whether or not the case will come under the new Warrant which I hope will be published in a few days—whether or not it will be found that the man's disease was aggravated by service I cannot say, but if it can be, the widow will get her four-fifth's pension if that is the form of award ultimately decided upon, and I hope she will be one of the first to receive the benefit of the new and extended scheme. I should like to say one word of comment upon the speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool (Mr. Ashley) the day before yesterday. I am sorry I was not here when he spoke, and I am sorry he is not here while I am speaking. The fact was that I was busy at the War Office at the time he spoke, and as soon as I heard that the speech was being made I came down to the House, but arrived just too late. My hon. Friend referred to the fact that in the early days of the War the Government had requisitioned Hundreds, and, I think thousands, of omnibuses belonging to the London General Omnibus Company and they had to pay a pretty smart price for them. He went on to say that if the War Office had had a little greater wisdom than they possessed at the time—I may mention that this was before I became Financial Secretary—they would have made an arrangement for taking over the London General Omnibus Company in the same way that they had taken control of the railways. My hon. Friend said that if we had done that we could have made a very much wiser bargain, but that we had not done so. He said: What has been the result? If the proposition made by the company when they were in a hole at the beginning of the War had been accepted, in 1914 no money would have been paid to the company; in 1915, I am informed, some £30,000 would have been paid; and this year, as far as one can judge, very little more on the average would be paid; whereas, if my information is correct, we have already paid the company for vehicles requisitioned £430,000, and more is still due."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd May, May, 1916, cols. 2041–2.] I have only one or two observations to make upon that speech. There is really no analogy whatever between the London General Omnibus Company and the railway companies. When we took over the railway companies we did so in order that we might control the traffic. What we wanted from the London General Omnibus Company was not the control of the traffic. We wanted the vehicles they possessed, and we wanted to take those vehicles for service in France. To say that the London General Omnibus Company came to the War Office and begged that some arrangement might be made similar to that which was made with the railways is to show a complete ignorance of the draft proposals which the company made to the War Office. If my hon. Friend had had any idea of the proposals that were made, he would have seen that his statement was entirely unfounded. With regard to price, he said that we should have had to pay £30,000 last year, nothing in 1914, whereas we have paid £430,000 now. My hon. Friend does not suppose that if we had only paid £30,000 last year that we should have been left in possession of all these vehicles. We should have had to pay for them in the end. Whether we paid this year, next year, or whenever we ceased using the vehicles, we should have had either to hand them back to the company and to have borne the cost of reinstating them in a condition in which they could earn money on the London streets, or else we should have had to pay the purchase price. I went into this matter most carefully myself. The negotiations, which took months, ensued between me and the London General Omnibus Company with regard to the price that was proper to be paid. I do not doubt it is a matter which will come under the scrutiny of the Public Accounts Committee, and, when it does, and if the proposals which were made by the London General Omnibus Company in the early days of the War are laid at the same time, it will be seen that what has actually taken place has been a good bargain for the State.
What was the sum?
I would rather not say at the moment. That is all I wish to say on the matter. I regret I was not able to deal with my hon. Friend's speech the moment it was made, but I thought it was desirable to say these few words with reference to it lest the House and the country should be left under a misapprehension as to the facts.
There are three points to which I should like to refer. In the speech just delivered by the Financial Secretary to the War Office he made no reference to the allowances in regard to pensions that are to be given to disabled soldiers. I was informed this afternoon by Mr. Pearson, who is dealing with the question of the blind people, that where a disabled soldier receives a pension of 25s., or less or more, the Government only allow 2s. 6d. per child, whereas, on the other hand, in regard to separation allowances they allow 5s. per child. I should like to know why it is that when under the separation allowance 5s. per child is allowed, but that when a man is put out of action and receives a pension you only allow 2s. 6d.? It is evident to everybody that no mother living can keep a child upon the sum of 2s. 6d. per week. I understand that Mr. Pearson and other people are trying to get sufficient money by public contributions to make up the difference between the 2s. 6d. allowed by the Government and the 5s. allowed under the separation allowance. This is a great grievance and one that requires rectifying at the earliest opportunity. The second point is with regard to the married men who are to be called up under the Military Service Act and who have no children at all. It appears that there is going to be great hardship inflicted upon that household, for if a married man who is called to the Colours, which he will be, all the money the wife will receive will be 12s. 6d. a week, in consequence of her having no children. Everyone knows that at least six or seven shillings will have to be paid in the shape of rent, and the wife will be left with 5s. 6d., or 6s. at the outside, for the purpose of maintaining herself. There is also a genuine grievance there that requires rectifying.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury may say, perhaps, in reply, that that is a hardship which will be dealt with by means of the special allowance for school fees and so forth. In that case all the married men with no children will have to make special application. I think something ought to be done to meet the differentiation between the married men with no children and the married men with children. My third point is with regard to the extra 3s. 6d. allowed for rent in certain parts of the London area. People who are living in certain parts of London are allowed 3s. 6d. over and above the ordinary separation allowance, in consequence of the high rent they have to pay. If you take the Borough of West Ham, one-half of which comes within the extra allowance, you find that one man will get the 3s. 6d., while another man who lives on the other side of the road will not have the 3s. 6d. I would ask the Financial Secretary whether it is not possible to extend the 3s. 6d. allowance to what is known as the London Metropolitan area. That would meet a genuine grievance, and would to a great extent relieve some of the hardships which are bound to be incurred by men coming within the Military Service Act.
ROYAL ASSENT.
Message received to attend the Lords Commissioners.
The House went, and, having returned,
Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to— 1. Military Service Act, 1916 (Session 2). 2. Colonial Bank Act, 1916. 3. Swansea Harbour Act, 1916. 4. City of Dublin Steam Packet Company's Act, 1916. 5. Cardiff Railway Act, 1916.
Private.
6. An Act for the restitution in blood of the heirs of the late Reginald Gervase Alexander so far as relates to the Honour and Dignity of the Barony of Cobham.
Mr. WALSH rose—
The hon. Member, I think, has already addressed the House.
No, Sir. I only asked a question of the Under-Secretary for War.
A very long question. It contained two or three sentences. I daresay the House will give the hon. Member permission to speak.
The points I wish to bring before the attention of the hon. Gentleman are really points which I brought before his attention about three months ago, and I do not think he himself is in any way directly responsible for the matters about which we now make complaint. In fact, one of the greatest difficulties is the extremely good-tempered and very generous way in which he treats these questions. It makes it extremely difficult when we know that behind him there are Departmental officers who are not at all construing the administration of these allowances in anything like the spirit that he displays in this House. I brought up, three months ago, the fact that when we were endeavouring to rally the fighting strength of the nation to the Army we pointed out, in circulars issued from the War Office, that the dependants of the soldiers would be provided for, and that, not only would this apply to the case of a wife or a father or a mother, but it would apply in those cases where a sister or a brother or other dependant had been the recipient of support at the expense of the soldier who had joined the Colours. That particular circular was sent out on 11th November, 1914, and for a long time the spirit of that circular was nobly carried out, and there are to-day hundreds of thousands of dependants in that category who are receiving payment from War Office funds. But within the last eight or nine months there can be no doubt at all that quite a change has taken place in the spirit of the administration, and exactly the same kind of people are being refused any allowance at all. A young man makes an allotment in favour, say, of his sister, who has been entirely dependent upon the funds coming into the general household. She herself is wholly unable to earn her living. I have cases, which I have sent to the right hon Gentleman, where the woman is unable to work at all. The interpretation placed upon these by the regimental paymasters and supported from Whitehall, is that unless the payment was made for the personal benefit of the particular dependant, no dependancy allowance can be granted. That is a hopelessly unfair interpretation of the circular, and it is a hopelessly strained interpretation of the conditions that were presented to the people at the beginning. I have case after case that I have written to the right hon. Gentleman himself about, and case after case that I have written to the regimental paymasters about, and in every case these poor people, who were supported partly by the funds of the father and partly from the funds of the son and brother, although they are receiving an allotment on their brother, are cut out of all dependancy allowance, and whereas we are told from the very beginning that the object of these allowances was to keep the household in a state of comfort similar to that which existed before the father and the son enlisted, now they are at a very much lower standard of comfort. Indeed, in many homes penury and something very akin to starvation prevail.
I speak of that which I know, and this helps to lower and indeed to kill something of the fighting spirit of the people. When a young soldier comes back to his home that he did so much to protect and to support before he went into the Army, and sees the scale of living distinctly lowered, how can he go back with anything like the fighting spirit that he went at the first? The whole thing circulates, and the temperature of the whole countryside goes down because of this treatment of those to whom we ought to be most generous I gave the hon. Gentleman a particular case three months ago. I could give a hundred, but I gave him one, and he promised me, in correspondence, that if I would give him the definite details of that case he would see that it was attended to, but he wrote me a letter saying that the arrangements or regulations of the War Office prevented any further payment. I will state the case. All the male members of the family of fighting age went to the War. The father was earning 36s. a week, the two sons were earning about 30s. a week each, and altogether there was about £4 16s. coming into that family. The three of them—three of the best-known men in the district, living within a mile of my own home—went to the War at the very beginning. The father made an allotment, and a proper allowance was paid upon it. The second son made an allotment in favour of his sister, a woman of twenty-one years of age. She never at the most earned more than 10s. a week. She is working in a factory when she works at all, but the cotton industry was in a most depressed condition, and at the best she could never keep herself, and, of course, the two sons pooled their money and a dependancy allowance was actually granted. The pension officer and the Pension Committee inquired into the case. They said it was a proper case, and they reported it to the regimental paymaster, who, however, refused to pay on the ground that the money paid by John was not paid for the personal benefit of this woman. To say that money shall be paid for the personal benefit of any particular member of the household is to go dead against the working arrangement of working class families.
We want the right hon. Gentleman to bring into the departmental affairs of the War Office something of the generous spirit that he himself shows, very properly, in the House—we know perfectly well that he feels it, but we would really like him to put something of his own spirit into those folks who are simply performing their duties in an ordinary departmental and routine way. After all, that is really what we desire. Take the case of the apprentice. I have in my locker in this House the cases of twenty apprentices at the very least. In one case, from Rochdale, the father had paid a bounty of £60 so that his lad could be trained in his craft. The young fellow very properly entered the Army almost as soon as the War broke out. It may be and has been said that there is no pre-war dependancy. Is that the spirit in which we should treat him? The young man suffers a great loss, and the family suffers a great loss, and we are told by the hon. Gentleman—he can hardly help himself, one must admit—that we must wait until the Statutory Committee has made its arrangements, and some payments have been made. This took place in the middle of 1914, and not a single halfpenny has been paid from then until now. Surely we are entitled to say that some intermediate steps should be taken, and that the local committees to be formed in connection with the Statutory Committee might be authorised to take special cases of this kind into consideration, and to give assistance accordingly. Such assistance could be debited against the payments later to be made. These families in many cases are in a serious state. I will not say they are in a state of destitution, because they have not reached that stage, but they are in a state very seriously lower than the standard of comfort that existed before the War broke out.
There is another point. We were told at the beginning of the War, by a circular issued in November, 1914, that if a soldier made his allotment, that allotment would automatically carry a dependancy allowance subject to dependancy on the part of the recipient being proved. We are told now that unless the person nominates the recipient within four weeks that no allowance will be made at all. I have case after case which I have sent to the War Office where they are refusing altogether to give dependancy allowances because, forsooth, four weeks have elapsed. Is that generosity? The hon. Gentleman appealed to the House, and said he thought that, taking a broad view of the whole position, the War Office treated these matters generously. That is a rigid, strained, and unfair interpretation. A young soldier joins the Army. He is told he must make an allotment, and he does so. He is drilling in the early morning, all the day, and late at night. He has taken up the full performance of his military duties, yet if by any chance the correspondence is not properly attended to, even where the correspondence has taken place—and there is case after case where there is proof that no letter has been sent from the regimental authorities—how can the burden be placed upon the people at home or upon the soldier himself to prove that he has properly attended to the correspondence? If he has not properly attended to it, there is no dependancy allowance for the people at home. Where the fact is genuinely proved that there was dependancy, surely the fact that the man makes an allotment and the fact that these people were depending upon him before he joined the Army should be taken into consideration, and the payments should be made. It is said that the Chelsea Commissioners deal generously with these matters. In my writing to the Chelsea Commissioners on behalf of men who have come into my home disabled and ill I have not been able, except in one instance, to get them to acknowledge any case. Whether that is generous treatment or not I am not prepared to say.
There is another important point. In the fixing of the four-fifths allowance, why should a discrimination be made between a case of acceleration and a case of causation. I understood the hon. Gentleman to say there were two categories—one where the case was caused by military service, and the other where it was accelerated by military service. What has the State done under the Workmen's Compensation Act? It is important to note that, because, after all, we as a State employ these men. The State laid it down, in 1897, that when an employer of labour employed a person for profit, if that person died and it was found as a fact that, although he was suffering from a bad state of health, a particular accident accelerated his death, full compensation was to be paid. The moment you begin to try to discriminate between cases of that character you will get into endless trouble. You will not only have tremendous trouble at this end, but you will inflict an awful sense of injustice upon the family, the children, the widow, and others, in the case where you are giving a lesser amount because you say he was suffering from a particular complaint at the first, and that the military service only accelerated his death. These people will feel a keen sense of injustice and hardship, because their breadwinner will have departed, and they will not be content with the niceties of acceleration or of first causation that you will inquire into at this end. The proper thing to do—and I am sure the nation is in the mood to do it—is to follow the example the State set in 1897, which was developed in 1906, and where as a fact the death was either accelerated or caused by military service in which the State has employed the man, make no discrimination, but treat everybody alike. I think you will find that that is the proper way in which business of this kind should be carried out.
I desire to raise two points. The first I wish to address to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board, and I think he will agree that it is a matter of some importance. As he knows, at present the system under which separation allowances are augmented, or under which they are paid in advance, when the scheme has not gone through properly, is by payment through the Prince of Wales' Fund. That system of payment is to come to an end at the end of June, and the work is to be taken up under the new Committees formed in connection with the Naval and Military War Pensions Act. I should like an assurance that these Committees are ready in every district in the country to undertake that work. I should be very glad if the right hon. Gentleman could give me that assurance, because I am quite sure everybody will agree that if there is any hiatus during which these people cannot get payment, if the Prince of Wales' Fund has ceased to make these payments, and if the new body is not ready to make these payments, very grave injustice and wrong will be done. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman can tell me in what position the various schemes are. I assume that most of the County Council's first schemes are through. He asked the County Council to defer making schemes relating to setting up district sub-committees, because that is to be done by supplementary schemes. What I would like an assurance about is that all these supplementary schemes are in hand, and that we can rely upon them being ready by the 30th of June. If he is unable to give us that assurance I trust he will see that some arrangement is made through the Prince of Wales' Fund and the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association that these allowances are continued until new machinery is set up.
The other point I wish to address to the Financial Secretary to the War Office, and it is in reference to the action of the Chelsea Commissioners when application is made for pensions in the case of men whose illness is held not to be directly traceable to Army service but accelerated by Army service. The Financial Secretary stated, in answer to the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge), that if all his past speeches have not convinced the House as to the generosity of the action of the Chelsea Commissioners, he was afraid he could not do so in his speech to-day. It was only on the last occasion when this item was debated here that we had an assurance that pensions would be paid in cases where illness was accelerated by Army service and not directly due to it. I do not carry my complaint to the full length that the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. Walsh) carried it. I am not complaining against that discrimination, although there is a great deal in what he says. The grievance is much stronger than the grievance he put. We had a definite assurance in this House that in these cases, while the Chelsea Commissioners were not prepared to pay the full pension, they would pay four-fifths in cases of acceleration. In the case of complete disability, the pension is 25s. for a man whose disease can be directly attributed to his Army service, and in a case of acceleration it should be £1 a week. Case after case could be given where they are getting only 8d. a day or 5s. a week, and where the men are unable to earn a single penny. I believe we are entitled to a much fuller explanation than has been given, how it is that the Chelsea Commissioners are not carrying out the promise that was given in this House. Apparently they are not doing so. Of course we must leave to their medical advisers the decision whether a man is only partially disabled, and in that case they must decide what pension should be given, but where there is complete disability, I think we are entitled to an explanation why £1 a week is not paid, instead of these small sums of 5s. a week or 8d. a day. If we can have an assurance on these two points, I am sure there would be great satisfaction not only in this. House, but in the country.
I notice that in this Bill there is provision for the issue of Treasury Bills. There is great anxiety in the commercial world on this matter. We have the gigantic sum of a floating debt amounting to £700,000,000 at the present time in Treasury bills, which have been issued in twelve months, and which are falling due now almost every day. The Government takes powers by this Bill to issue a further sum of £300,000,000, making, if they succeed, a gross floating debt—a liability which they may be called upon from day to day to meet—of the vast sum of £1,000,000,000. We knew perfectly well, or at any rate business men knew perfectly well, twelve months ago, that an enormous amount of money would be required for the conduct of the War. At the beginning of the War we understood that it was necessary to have a certain amount of Treasury Bills in circulation. The original use of Treasury Bills was to enable the Government to tide over temporarily the collection of taxes, and, where necessary, where the taxes were not sufficient, to issue loans. It was never intended that such vast amounts as £1,000,000,000 of Treasury Bills should be issued to pay for the conduct of the War. I am sure that the Treasury themselves do not realise what the meaning of this is. They do not realise what they have hanging over their heads, which they may be called upon to meet at any moment if any accident were to happen.
They commenced the War by borrowing on Treasury Bills at 3½ per cent. The first Loan was issued at 3½ per cent. Without any apparent reason the rate for Treasury Bills was increased to 4½ per cent. and, as they were selling Treasury Bills over the counter at that rate, they had to issue their second Loan at 4½ per cent. We have become alarmed in the City and in other financial centres in the country because, without any warning to the market, the Treasury allowed the bankers and the brokers in the money market to go to the Bank of England and buy the Treasury Bills at 4½ per cent., and in the afternoon the market found suddenly that, without any excuse, the Treasury had put up the rate for the bills to 4¾ per cent., inflicting a heavy loss on the banks and the money market. Within a week, without any reason and without any excuse, the money was put up by the Treasury from 4¾ per cent. to 5 per cent. There was an enormous floating surplus of money on the market, and we could only come to the conclusion that the Government were gambling in money. We found that they were offering their Exchequer Bills at 5 per cent., and that everything was being done to take into the Bank of England every available centime that could be collected in our money market. We found also that agents of the Government were actually going into the joint stock banks and telling them not to lend their money on the market below 4 per cent. We found agents of the Government going round the market and telling the bill brokers that if they dared to discount bills under 5 per cent., they would have the bank rate put up on them to 6 per cent.
The Government must have known that they required some thousands of millions of borrowing on the market, and we were astonished and alarmed to find that they themselves, knowing their requirements, were actually doing everything they could to make the taxpayer pay more than was absolutely necessary for the financing of this war. I consider that the manner in which the financial situation has been handled will cost the country millions of money, because by this temporary borrowing, by allowing this accumulation of Treasury Bills to come into existence, it would be utterly impossible for the Government at the present time to contract a loan, at any rate under the rate at which they are prepared to sell the Treasury Bills over the counter. We know perfectly well that you can go with your money to-day and you can buy bills just issued. You can buy Exchequer Bonds for 1920 and 1921 to pay you 5 per cent. You can buy Treasury Bills to pay you 5 per cent. Do the Government expect that they will be able to induce the public to subscribe to a loan for ten or twenty years below the rate at which they can invest their money, the rate which has been fixed by the Government themselves on the value of the money in the market? We have seen the way in which the finance has been handled, and the immense—we can only call it—speculation in that Department. We know per- fectly well that we are the wealthiest country in the world, and if the Government had been able to make up their mind, or what they were pleased to call their mind, at the beginning of the War, and as it went on to raise the funds necessary and to utilise the issue of Treasury Bills to tide them over from time to time instead of seeing the rate of money at the present time 5 per cent. and over, you would have seen an enormous plethora of money in the market, and the Government would have had no difficulty at all in borrowing at least at the rate at which they issued their last Loan.
We know perfectly well that so long as you can buy these Treasury Bills it is absolutely hopeless for the Government to attempt to issue a Loan under 5 per cent. If the Government were to utilise these Treasury Bills for the purposes of temporary accommodation you would have had such a plethora on the money market that, instead of the old 4½ per cent. Loan being as it is at a discount of 95, you would have had that money going into those bonds which are coming on the market daily, and you would have had the value maintained, which they are fully worth, at par value. I feel absolutely certain that the condition if taken in time can be altered to the benefit of the taxpayer in this country, but I feel absolutely certain that if this policy of drift is allowed to continue, it means disaster to the finances of this country. The Government do not realise what they are doing. It is absolutely certain that if they were to examine from every possible point of view the manner in which they are utilising the strength of the financial position of this country they would be appalled if they looked to the future consequences of their action. I hope that before it is too late they will at least make up their minds and decide positively how they are going to carry on the finances of this War so that we shall come out successfully, and not be compelled, as we heard that we shall have to do, to issue forced Loans. There is no necessity for forced Loans. Everybody is absolutely convinced of the necessity of carrying on the War to the end, and providing all the money that is necessary, but it is necessary for the Government to do something, so as not to compel the taxpayers to have to pay in the future millions a year more than is necessary.
I would like to bring the House back to the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge). I think that the country is indebted to him for his persistence in raising these points with regard to the pensions to the disabled soldiers and sailors. I did not hear the reply of the Financial Secretary, but I am told that it was not at all satisfactory, and that no promise of reform was made by him for the future. Complaints with regard to separation allowances have been made by several speakers. My experience is that there is a vast improvement in the prompt payment of separation allowances to the parties, because since the man who is enlisting makes his declaration on the day that he does enlist whether or not he is prepared to make an allotment to his parents, or sisters, or his wife, there is a vast improvement, and so far as I can learn we are getting very few complaints now as to the payment of separation allowance. But with regard to pensions, there is a vast number of complaints coming in, and I would like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board (Mr. Hayes Fisher) when we may expect the reform promised by the Chancellor of Exchequer last year that there was to be a Bill brought in this year to establish one Pensions Committee to deal with the whole question, so that the Chelsea Commissioners and the Greenwich Hospital should all be merged in one vast Pensions Committee. We have not heard anything about that this year. It seems to me that there is plenty of time. The Bill, I am certain, would not be opposed in this House, and it is the duty of the Government to carry out the promise which they made last year.
On 30th January, 1915, we had the scale published with regard to pensions: Widows without children 10s. and 12s. 6d. Widows with two children 18s. 6d., with three children 20s. 6d., with four children 22s. 6d. Motherless children 5s. each. Disablement benefit went up to 25s. for total disablement. What we find is that this scale is reviewed by the Chelsea Commissioners, and reviewed disadvantageously to the man who is entitled to the pension. I am quite certain that, so far as the Chelsea Commissioners are concerned, looking at this question from the point of view of the old system which was in vogue before these improvements in the scale of pensions were brought into being, it is most essential that the Government should establish one central body to deal with the question in a more humane spirit, so that the conservatism, if I may use the term, of these Commissioners should be dispensed with. Therefore, I hope that we may hear something from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board, who seems to me to take charge of the whole of this question as to the intentions of the Government in dealing with this point. Up till last year, when he sat on the other side of the House, he was one of the men who pleaded for the reform which I am demanding now. He said that we should have one Board—I believe that he said that in his evidence before the Pensions Committee—to deal with this whole question, but we are not obtaining that reform, and I think that he should impress upon the Government the necessity of carrying it into effect.
7.0 P.M.
There is another question. Personally, I was very much displeased with this new scheme, that was more or less debated last night upon the Report stage, of sending Commissioners round the country to award these supplementary grants for rent, insurance premiums, and other things to the men who go to the front. I am quite certain that what we are doing is absolutely illegal. There is no statutory power for the creation of this body of Commissioners. There is nothing in any Act of Parliament to entitle these Commissioners to make these recommendations. Last year we had passed through this House a very important Act of Parliament called the Naval and Military War Pensions Act. Section 3 of that Act, on the recommendation of the Pensions Committee, placed upon the new Statutory Committee the power of paying supplementary grants where the separation allowances were inadequate. In my opinion the duty of finding out what these men are entitled to in the way of supplementary grants is now devolved upon the Statutory Committee, and also upon the local committees, who can work through the Statutory Committee. But, instead of that, the Government, or the right hon. Gentleman, has created a new Committee without any statutory powers, and he has actually created Commissioners, who are lawyers or barristers, and who are to go round the country to ascertain to what these men are entitled. I disagree entirely with what the right hon. Gentleman said last night, and I think it was a reflection upon the public spirit and action of the men who form our local committees. I have taken part in some of those local committees, and I may tell the right hon. Gentleman in regard, that the money they have distributed from the Prince of Wales' Fund for distress has been very carefully administered. In the county of Durham committees were formed, and these committees have investigated every case most carefully, and have distributed the money in a most careful manner. I say it is a reflection upon these men to say, when they have had the power of investigating "what a man is entitled to under this new scheme up to £2 a week, that they would give money where they were not entitled to give it.
They have local knowledge.
As my hon. Friend reminds me, these local committees are familiar with the districts, and possess a knowledge of its requirements and of the people who live there, which barristers who are not local men, cannot have. Did not the Government ask the Statutory Committee to work this scheme; did it not come before the Statutory Committee, and did not that Committee consider it and decline to work out this new scheme of supplementary grants to the married men? I say it is their duty to work it out, and no other body should work it out. I say, further, that the new scheme is practically unworkable for the reason that you send one Commissioner down to, say, for example, the county of Durham, where I live, and where we have something like twenty populous districts. How is one barrister going to deal with thousands of applications which may be made in that county? Where is he going to sit? Is he going to sit in Durham, the capital of the county, and are men living sixty miles away from that capital city to travel that distance to place their cases before this barrister? The whole thing is impracticable and unworkable. What you want is the appointment of local committees who would investigate every case. In each case they would know the man, would know his earnings and position, and they could report to the Statutory Committee what the man was entitled to. I say, advisedly, that there is not even a Member of Parliament, let alone the poor men who are enlisting, who could answer the questions contained in these Regulations. Why, the Income Tax return is nothing to it. As my hon. Friend says, that is child's play compared with this. Let us examine this schedule. A man has to state in detail his income, his expenditure, and his future prospects if he goes to the War. There is not a single man who can answer these questions. I contend that if I put this form to my right hon. Friend himself he would not be able to fill it up accurately. Yet the man who enlists is expected to fill up this paper, though he may know nothing about the trade of the district and may be unable to say what his prospects were. I repeat that the scheme is unworkable, and I am certain that it will break down, whatever may be the instructions.
If this scheme is to go on, if it is to be made workable, then you propose to pay the money every quarter. It has been shown from practical experience in the past that to pay money in lump sums is a very dangerous practice, and the Government has found it to be essential and imperative that they must pay money weekly, and now all supplementary grants and all allowances are paid weekly; yet it is now proposed to pay this money in the form of a grant every quarter. There may be a very considerable accumulation of money, perhaps from £20 to £30 in some instances, to be paid out at the end of the quarter. I would point out that under paragraph 11 there is nothing definite as to how the money is to be paid. Is it to be paid through some association, or through these local committees, or through the Post Office? There is no indication, but it is left to this Committee, which is self-appointed, and which is without any statutory power, to decide the manner in which this money is to be paid in future. That is in itself totally irregular, because we are now paying this money through the Post Office; we are paying separation allowances through the Post Office, and supplementary grants are paid through the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association out of the Prince of Wales' Fund. Let me point out what would take place. I believe something like £3,000,000 has been spent in the way of supplementary grants out of the Prince of Wales' Fund through the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association. That comes to an end on the 30th June. The local committees then take it over. These committees will not distribute the money out of the Prince of Wales' Fund in future; they will distribute the money out of the £1,000,000 voted by this House and handed over to the Statutory Committee, who will pay it through the local committees. What would be the position? The position will be that the local committees will be paying these supplementary grants from 6d. per week up to 8s. per week in certain cases, and you will have this other committee, working through the barristers, that may pay sums up to £2 a week. They will be paying out Parliamentary money also, that is, the money voted by Parliament for this scheme. I say that it is a waste of energy; it is overlapping, and the whole thing ought to be concentrated, as we understood it was going to be concentrated, in one central committee, working through local committees. Unless we can get that scheme into operation, unless we can get the whole of the power of distributing this money in the hands of one central body, permeating the whole country through local committees, established by our public authorities, there will never be satisfaction in this country. Some of us in this House are determined that we shall fight this question until we bring all these schemes into one harmonious body, so that no person shall have an advantage over another in the distribution of this money.
I quite agree with the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Raffan), who asked for the formation of local committees. Personally, I am not satisfied with the progress made. I know my right hon. Friend will say that they are doing their best, and that they are working very hard. I do not dispute it. But there is a want of practical knowledge on that committee; I am certain there is, and I will give an illustration, with which I think my hon. Friend will agree, as a member of a county council. This does not apply to borough councils in regard to the formation of committees, because borough councils are self-contained—each forms one committee. Instructions have already been sent out to county councils. I have seen in my own county council a circular containing instructions asking the county council to form a scheme under the new Act not to contain sub-committees or district committees. How are you going to get all of these committees into working operation by the end of June if you stop the county councils from doing it? How can a county council go about the county distributing supplementary grants out of the million pounds at the end of June, or the 1st of July, unless these committees are formed? The Statutory Committee, so far as I can understand, cannot be composed of prac- tical men, at least on the Sub-committee who have the drafting of these scheme; otherwise, they would not have stopped the county councils from forming these committees. It is impossible for these committees to be brought into existence by the 1st July, to be ready to distribute this money, as they could have been, if this Committee had worked in the spirit in which they ought to have worked is carrying this Act into operation. And we shall find ourselves in this position on the 1st July, that the Prince of Wales' Fund will stop their grants to the soldiers and sailors, and unless the Government can carry on some organisation, quite apart from these local committees, there will be no committees throughout the country—save the borough councils—that are prepared to make these grants to the intended recipients as they have been made in the past. That would be a great disaster, and would cause great dissatisfaction.
There is another point about which I am bound to say I am alarmed—a matter which is absolutely illegal. I have seen Circular 4, not Form 4, but Circular 4; indeed, all these dangerous circulars or forms are called either Circular 4, or Form 4, and this Circular 4 is not only a very dangerous one, but absolutely illegal. I say that advisedly. You have no right to ask the local committee to distribute this money through another organisation. The duty is devolved upon these local committees; it is one of their functions. Clause 4, paragraph ( e ), enacts that they are appointed to distribute any supplementary grants made by the Statutory Committee, the distribution of which has been delegated to the local committee by the Statutory Committee. I say there is no power under the Act to delegate any of that power to an outside body. When the Bill came down from the Lords there was a Clause carried there giving power-to the local authorities to hand money over to outside bodies, but it was withdrawn in this House. They are now actually asking these local committees to nominate so many of their members to this outside body. I say that the Statutory Committee is going outside of its powers absolutely, and if this thing is going on we are going to cause some trouble and try and prevent it. In the intervening time between completing the work of the committees these organisations must continue to distribute the money where they exist. It is the duty of the Statutory Committee to work night and day, and if they will instruct the local authorities and ask them to set up those committees and accelerate the speed, then I am quite certain that you will get all those local authorities keen to respond to that appeal. Circulars are going out about the appointment of the district committees, but if they are not appointed you cannot have this money distributed by the county council. I am not making this speech in any adverse spirit. I have felt it my duty to sound an alarm, because this House passed the Act unanimously. It came with the recommendation of the Pensions Committee, which was composed of the Colonial Secretary, the Secretary of State for India, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Minister of Munitions and others, that this money should be distributed through the Statutory Committee and then through these local committees. I say it is the duty of the Statutory Committee to carry out the Act in the spirit in which it was passed through the House, and not to tamper with the main principles upon which it was passed.
The hon. Gentleman who has just spoken told us that he sounded an alarm. Every sentence of his speech was an alarm, and almost every sentence of his speech accused either the Government, or some member of the Government, of gross illegality. The scheme which has just been set on foot to alleviate the serious hardships which might ensue in calling up men for military service who are faced with civil liabilities, and to relieve them to the extent of as much as £104 per year, that, according to the hon. Gentleman, is illegal.
I say that the way you are doing it is illegal. You should do it through the Statutory Committee.
That is the way the Government have instructed it to be done, and if the hon. Gentleman thinks it is illegal he had better put that question to the Attorney-General. When the hon. Gentleman calls this Committee a self-constituted Committee, of which I am Chairman, I may tell him that I am appointed as Chairman by the Prime Minister, and that the Committee is not appointed by me, but appointed by the Government. I am charged with the very onerous duties, very onerous, which require a great deal of my time, to carry out this scheme, which is not a scheme of mine or of the Committee, but a Cabinet scheme, and which at all events finds favour with the Prime Minister and with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, inasmuch as he is expecting to have to find millions of money with which to finance the scheme. The hon. Gentleman says it is impracticable and unworkable. We will see about that. I am perfectly certain of this: my horse will canter over the course much quicker than any horse he will ever start. That money is much more likely to reach the recipients of these funds by the process we are setting up than by any process which the hon. Gentleman thinks of setting up. We argued this case last night, and had quite a long debate upon it. I will only refer to one of the arguments. The hon. Gentleman still sticks to it that the local tribunals would be the proper people.
I said the local committees, not the local tribunals—the local committees appointed under the Naval and Military Pensions Act.
Those local committees to which the hon. Gentleman wants to give the administration do not exist, and are not likely to exist until the end of next month. I thought it was of supreme importance that this relief should be given at once, without delay, yet the hon. Gentleman says leave it to the local committees who, some day or another, are to come into existence. It was absolutely necessary to set up machinery which would revolve rapidly, turn out this money rapidly, and transfer it rapidly to the pockets of those who are worthy applicants for such sums of money as are to be given. No Chancellor of the Exchequer could possibly consent that millions of money should be given out to over 2,000 tribunals all over the country unless he had at least some representative on those tribunals. Therefore, we had to devise some other machinery, and we have devised these Commissioner Barristers. If it be found that sixty or eighty of them are not enough, we will appoint sixty or eighty more. We will double or treble, or even quadruple, the machinery sooner than have any serious delay or breakdown in the giving of this money where it is so much needed to meet extra rents, rates, premiums on policies, and matters of that kind.
The hon. Gentleman made a very violent attack upon the Statutory Body, and said that that Committee acted illegally in almost every action. I should advise him to put a question about that to the Attorney-General or the Solicitor-General as to whether or not the Statutory Body is acting illegally. I am one of the culprits. I cannot be expected to take that view of the case, or to put my head into the noose which the hon. Gentleman prepares. I should be anxious to see him put the question down for Tuesday next, or as early a day as possible. I am quite certain he will get the answer that again he is living in a world of scares and alarms. He is really unnecessarily troubling himself about all these matters where not an act of illegality has been committed. Some of the acts may not have been wise, according to him, but they are certainly not illegal. So far as the Statutory Committee is concerned there has been undoubtedly more delay than was anticipated in setting up these local committees. Why? First of all, the Act ordains that the Statutory Committee must lay down model schemes to the county councils. The county councils say very naturally, "If you insist that we must have one-fifth labour and one-fifth women in the scheme, we want to have something to say to it." Some county councils say, "We cannot find labour representatives, and will you modify your scheme in this direction or in that?" It is very seldom they meet. You begin to see what difficulties there are. The delay has not been altogether at our hands. We have worked hard morning, noon, and night, but there will be delay, particularly as regards the schemes of county councils. They do have difficulties in the counties of finding one-fifth of the representatives of organised labour. In the boroughs it is not so, and there most of the schemes have been agreed to. Now they have got to choose the personnel and to find out the proper persons who will be designated as persons under the scheme. All that has got to be done. We had a Statutory Committee meeting to-day, and undoubtedly many of those local committees will not have been formed by the 30th June.
The hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Raffan) asked me, very properly, where those local committees have not been formed on the 30th June, what machinery will carry on the grants which are now given, and the advances which are made in the way of extra rent allowances and all kinds of emergency allowances? Will those, asked the hon. Member, come to an end, or will you set up some machinery by which all those grants shall continue to be made on the present scale? The Statutory Committee have come to the conclusion that they must ask the present organisation to carry on the work where the local committees cannot come upon the ground in time. We issued a special circular to all the borough councils and county councils asking them whether they will be prepared to take over the work from the 30th June. Where they cannot take over the work from the 30th June, we shall then ask the present organisation, whatever that may be, whether the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association or local committee, or a hybrid of the two, which is now finding the advances, extra rent, and emergency allowances, to carry on the work, which they have done most of them so well, until the local committee can be actually formed, come into operation and be ready to take over the work under the Statute as we passed it.
I do not think my hon. Friend need be under the least fear that any of those allowances will be dropped. It is our policy to carry on those allowances on the same scale on which they are paid now, at all events, till the end of October, when we shall all have more time to review all these somewhat delicate and complicated matters. Perhaps by that time, too, we shall receive a good deal of local advice from local committees which have been formed, and we may possibly be able to alter our system in many respects and make several changes in the policy adopted in the first two years of war which may cover many of the hard cases which have been alluded to so often in this House. My hon. Friend asked me whether I can say if the Government will introduce a Bill to set up one pensions body in one pensions building. That is a question he must address to the Prime Minister. I am only an Under-Secretary. I cannot be expected to say what Cabinet policy may be, or when time will be found for Bills and matters of that kind. I have stated my opinion when sitting on the side opposite, and I have done so on this side, and I have stated my opinions before the Committee. I have never altered my opinions in this matter. I am, I suppose, the originator of the proposal that there ought to be one pensions board or body in one pensions building to supervise all these matters of pensions, whether they be State pensions or supplementary pensions, whether they be flat rate or differentiated pensions.
The whole question is becoming so vast and so complex that I am perfectly certain, if you want real justice done, and if you want economy and a body to which can be addressed all the numerous questions that will be addressed to some such body for years to come, you need one body, controlled by one head, and responsible through that one head to the House of Commons. That is the policy I have always advocated. I advocate it just as strenuously now as ever, but being a minor Member of the Government I cannot be expected to say when a Bill will be introduced, and when the Prime Minister will give time for the discussion of matters of this importance.
I want to say just one word with regard to the matter raised by the hon. Member for Wansworth (Mr. S. Samuel). I quite understand there not being any representative here of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to deal with this point, but it does certainly sound astonishing when the right hon. Gentleman tells us that there are £700,000,000 of Treasury Bills—that is, temporary loans—at the present time, and that this Bill, under Clause 2, gives power to add £300,000,000 to these Treasury Bills, making a total of £1,000,000,000 of Treasury Bills. I only rose to say that that is a very startling proposition, and that the right hon. Gentleman's speech is of a very startling nature, and I do hope the Government will see their way to allow it to be discussed in the Committee stage of this Bill. My hon. Friend will probably put down an Amendment to Clause 2, and I hope there may be a reply to his speech, as no reference has been made to it by any member of the Government on that Bench to-day. In the ordinary way it would be discussed on the Second Reading, but as there is no member of the Government present who can discuss it, or give any assurance, I hope they will see their way to discussing it on the Committee stage, if my hon. Friend puts down an Amendment to the Clause, because it is a matter of the greatest importance.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Monday next (29th May).
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of 22nd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-seven minutes before Eight o'clock, till Monday next, 29th May, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 22nd February last.
PETITIONS PRESENTED.
The following Petitions were presented during the week, and ordered to lie upon, the Table:—
TUESDAY.
Sale of Intoxicating Liquors during the War — Petitions for prohibition, from Annandale, and Beith.
THURSDAY.
Sale of Intoxicating Liquors during the War—Petition from Fauldhouse, for prohibition.