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Commons Chamber

Volume 83: debated on Tuesday 27 June 1916

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House Of Commons

Tuesday, 27th June, 1916.

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

Private Bills [ Lords] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—

Newcastle-upon-Tyne and Gateshead Gas Bill [ Lords].

Yeadon Water Bill [ Lords].

Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time.

Private Bill Petitions [ Lords]. (no Standing Orders applicable),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for the following Bill, originating in the Lords, he has certified that no Standing Orders are applicable, namely:—

Rhodes Estate [ Lords].

Private Bill Petitions [ Lords] (Standing Orders not complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for the following Bill, originating in the Lords, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, namely:—

Shropshire, Worcestershire, and Staffordshire Electric Power [ Lords].

Ordered, That the Report be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.

London County Council (Money) Bill,

Read the third time, and passed.

Canada Company Bill [ Lords],

As amended, considered; Amendments made; Bill to be read the third time.

Colchester Gas Bill [ Lords],

Ferndale Gas Bill [ Lords],

Hornsey Gas Bill [ Lords],

Read a second time, and committed.

Rebellion In Ireland (Royal Commission)

Copy presented of Report of the Royal Commission on the Rebellion in Ireland [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Shops Act, 1912

Copy presented of Order made by the Council of the undermentioned local authority, and confirmed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department:—

County of Surrey (parish of Merton) [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Education (Scotland)

Copy presented of Report of the Committee of Council on Education in Scotland in 1915–16 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Civil List Pensions

Copy presented of List of all Pensions granted during the year ended 31st March, 1916, and payable under the provisions of Section 9 (1) of the Civil List Act, 1910 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 94.]

Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 To 1909 (Proceedings)

Order [26th June, 1916] that the Paper relative thereto be printed, read, and discharged.

Oral Answers To Questions

War

Allied Ships In American Ports

1.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in view of the full protection from acts of war to which Allied merchant vessels are entitled in American ports, whether the attempts made to blow up Allied ships by bombs placed in the cargo by German sympathisers have now been brought to an end; and whether any representations have been made to the American Government in this matter?

As regards the first part of the question I cannot undertake to say that no further attempts will be made, but all possible precautions are being taken. The answer to the second part is in the affirmative.

Belgium (German Occupation)

2.

asked whether it is proposed to issue a translation of the recent French official report, dealing with the German exploitation of Belgian food and other supplies, as well as factories, mines, works, slaughterhouses, and means of communication; and whether, in view of more recent evidence at their disposal, the Government are still satisfied that the supplies sent through Mr. Hoover are not contributing to the German rule and exploitation of the country?

I do not know to what report the hon. and gallant Member refers. I know of no published official report on the subject issued by the French Government; but perhaps the hon. and gallant Member will inform me in private what is the document to which he refers.

Commercial Reprisals

3.

asked whether all British Ministers in neutral countries have been instructed to notify British traders in those countries that the Government's policy of commercial reprisals against alien enemies in neutral countries, as formulated in the Trading with the Enemy (Extension) Act, is to be regarded as continuous and will not terminate on the declaration of peace?

This question will receive careful consideration in connection with the recommendations of the Paris Conference.

Disturbances In Ireland

Irish Volunteers

5.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if the Government still deny the authenticity of the secret circular of instructions for the capture or slaughter of the Irish Volunteers; will he explain for what purpose large quantities of rifles, ammunition, explosives, and other warlike requisites were stored in the College of Surgeons and in Trinity College, Dublin, before the insurrection?

I have no information about any secret circular of instructions such as the hon. Gentleman mentions, but I will make inquiries, though I have little doubt that the hon. Member has discovered a mare's nest.

Has not the right hon. Gentleman been aware of this document of secret instructions since last April? Is he not aware that it was read at a meeting of the Dublin Corporation before the insurrection?

Is he not aware that these facts are within public knowledge, and that it cannot be described as my mare's nest?

Local Shows (Prohibition Of Competitions)

6.

asked by whose orders and under what Act the school children were prevented from holding their usual dancing and singing competition in connection with the local show at Coachford, county Cork; whether it was done with the sanction of His Majesty's Government; and, if not, has any intimation been given of disapproval?

I have no information that the children were prevented from dancing at the local show at Coachford, county Cork, but inquiry will be made.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at the present moment all these musical accompaniments of local shows are being prevented by the military authorities? Will that prohibition be withdrawn?

I have already informed the hon. Gentleman that inquiry will be made. I cannot do more.

Cases Under Investigation

7. and 8.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War who is responsible for having left Messrs. Lemas and Manning lying wounded in a court yard in the Custom House, Dublin, for three days of the insurrection, thereby complicating their neglected wounds with other sickness, and prolonging their time in hospital; whether he is aware that one of them is dying from pneumonia then contracted; and what the intention of the Government is with regard to these cases?

I am making inquiry about this matter, and that mentioned in the next question:—

8. To ask the Under-Secretary of State for War, whether the military authorities administering martial law in Ireland have yet allowed any civil investigation of the looting done in houses under pretext of searching them, the picking of the pockets of prisoners, and of the persons shot and buried surreptitiously; whether property so acquired is deemed to belong to the individual soldier taking it; and whether any inquiry will be made or allowed to be made into the disposal of such of this property as soldiers do not use, as table linen, for example?

With reference to Question No. 8, which has been dismissed in this manner, will the right hon. Gentleman undertake that claims for property taken by soldiers from houses that they have been searching will be heard by a Civil Court?

Reparation For Loss Of Property

46.

asked the Prime Minister what in the nature, of reparation has been, or will be, made to the widow of Thomas J. Clarke, executed, for the watch and large sum of money on his person at the time of surrender; for the private property taken from her house after her husband's execution; for the shop goods, worth £300, appropriated or destroyed by the military who made the house a mili- tary station; whether any articles not destroyed will be restored and the rest paid for; and whether any civil tribunal will be set up to investigate such cases?

I am inquiring whether the facts are as they have been communicated to the hon. Member.

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the question, Whether any civil tribunal will be set up to investigate such cases?

Prisoners In Penal Servititde

47.

asked the Prime Minister how many prisoners are now in penal servitude in connection with the recent insurrection in Ireland; whether any but those are undergoing penal servitude in pursuance of sentences of courts-martial; and whether, having regard to the character of the Courts and to the circumstances, the Government have considered the advisability of treating them all as prisoners of war, subject to effective security of detention?

According to the latest returns received from the Home Office 125 prisoners are now in penal servitude. This is an inclusive total. The reply to the last part of the question is in the negative.

The right hon. Gentleman has given an answer which is totally unintelligible. Will he say how many Irish prisoners are in penal servitude under sentence of court-martial?

East Africa Operations (Dispatches)

10.

asked when it is proposed to publish the dispatches relating to the operations in East Africa from the commencement of hostilities in 1914 up to 12th February, 1916, the date from which Lieutenant-General Smuts assumed command?

It is not proposed to publish the dispatches in question, but due consideration has been given to the names of officers mentioned for distinguished service by the commanders concerned.

It is not considered in the public interest that they should be given to the public just now. A time will arrive, no doubt.

1St Battalion Cheshire Regiment (Suicide Of Private)

11.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the circumstances which caused Private Albert Ellis Brook, of the 1st Battalion Cheshire Regiment, to take his own life, consequent upon his discharge from hospital as unfit for further service and the taunts which he experienced from those who, not knowing the facts, treated him as a shirker; whether he is aware that Private Brook was badly wounded at Mons, where he was captured by the enemy, and for a year was imprisoned in Germany, where he suffered much ill-treatment by the German authorities, being afterwards exchanged; and whether, in view of these circumstances and to prevent other discharged wounded men being similarly treated, the War Office will cause a badge, armlet, or some such distinctive device to be supplied to every man who has been rendered permanently unfit for further service on their discharge from hospital which shall indicate that they have been injured in the defence of the Empire and have not escaped from service under the plea of a conscientious objection?

I am unaware of the circumstances which led to Private Brook taking his own life. He was wounded in the arm and captured in August, 1914, and was exchanged as a prisoner of war and admitted to the 3rd London General Hospital on the 25th August, 1915, and was discharged as no longer physically fit for war service in December, 1915. He was awarded a pension. It has been ascertained that, through an oversight, Private Brook did not have an armlet issued to him. Upon the general question of the issue of armlets, I would ask the hon. Member to await my reply to the next question on the Paper.

Military Service

Medals, Decorations, And Badges

12.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the badges which are to be issued for men discharged from the Army on medical grounds are now ready for issue; and whether he can state fully the steps which are to be taken with regard to the award of the medal for bravery and other medals and decorations for special war service.

21.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he will cause it to be announced at all battalion headquarters, in the United Kingdom that upon discharge of a soldier as no longer physically fit for war service he will be entitled to an armlet indicating the fact of service and of the reason of discharge; and will he cause a specimen of the armlet used for the purpose to be exhibited in the Tea Room.

No, Sir. Manufacture will necessarily take a little time, but I hope that the badges will be available shortly. Every effort is being made to expedite matters. The hon. Member will have seen in the newspapers a statement of the medals, etc., which a man may earn by war service. A sample of the new badge can be placed in the Tea Room.

May we take it that the badge will not take the form of a brassard or armlet, but that it will be a badge of some other form?

As my hon. Friend is aware, this matter does not rest entirely with us; therefore I do not want to give any pledge. My personal idea is that it will not take the form of an armlet. I may be wrong.

I do not quite understand whether the right hon. Gentleman has made it clear that men in such cases as that mentioned in my question do receive any badge which will protect them against the danger of being mistaken for so-called conscientious objectors, who are very properly regarded with loathing and contempt.

If the hon. Gentleman raises controversial matters of that kind in a question, he cannot expect to get an answer.

Medical Examination

13.

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he is aware that a man residing in Isleworth was taken into the Army on the 18th instant, although his own medical doctor certified that he was suffering from very serious kidney disease, and that the case was brought to the notice of the authorities at Hounslow Barracks without avail; and whether any consideration is given to the report of a man's own private doctor?

No, Sir, I am not aware of the facts stated, but if particulars are furnished to me immediate inquiry will be made.

Conscientious Objectors

18.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he will cause inquiry to be made into the treatment received by Ithel Davies, of the 4th Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers, at the military detention barracks, Mold, while serving his sentence for refusing for conscientious reasons to obey military orders; whether, on the first day of his detention, he was knocked and dragged about for ten or fifteen minutes by two or three officials so that he was bruised and sore all over; that he was then handcuffed for hours; whether he was given any dinner; whether the same treatment was meted out to him the second day with the addition that shovelfuls of mud and stones were thrown over him, and that he was placed in irons and a straight-jacket until bed-time; that on the third day one of the officials brutally ill-treated him and hit him in the face and broke his nose; whether, while in that condition, a sergeant tried to drill him by himself and on his refusal dealt him many blows; whether Ithel Davies was released on 7th June and returned to the camp at Whittington, near Oswestry; whether he has been court-martialled again for disobedience to military orders; what sentence has been passed upon him; and what is proposed to be done to him after such sentence has been served?

I have caused full inquiry to be made into this case, and, as a result, I can give my hon. Friend this information: All those who had Private Ithel Davies under their charge deny that he was ill-used. The statements of the N.C.O.'s in question on this matter were taken by the visiting officer. No complaint was made to the visiting officer by this man. Private Davies was examined by the medical officer on 24th May, 25th May, and again on 7th June. On each occasion he was found to be fit; he never complained of sickness, nor called attention to any marks of violence from ill-treatment or injury of any description. He was also asked on the day of his release by the medical officer whether he had any complaint to make, and he answered "No." I think this question shows the desirability of treating these allegations of ill-treatment with great caution; otherwise I fear there is some danger of hon. Gentlemen being imposed upon, or at all events placed in a false position. I have no information as to whether this man has been again court-martialled.

In view of the discrepancy of the statements on both sides, will the right hon. Gentleman allow an independent inquiry into half-a-dozen of these cases?

What I meant was that the answer I gave yesterday might give rise to some misapprehension on the part of hon. Members. We have appointed an investigator who is independent in the sense, with no party to serve, and as he has no previous knowledge of these cases he goes down with a perfectly open mind.

Will the right hon. Gentleman's investigator see Private Davies himself and ask if he has the letter containing these allegations?

The statements were made, first of all, by a non-commissioned officer to the visiting officer. No complaint was made by the man to the visiting officer.

Would the right hon. Gentleman answer this part of the question: Whether the investigator, who, I understand, has been sent down by the War Office, has seen Private Davies, and asked him the specific questions?

19.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the cases in which conscientious objectors, while in detention barracks, have been deprived of their bibles; whether he is aware that this has been especially the case at Horfield Barracks, Bristol; whether this has been done on War Office instructions; and whether a general order will now be given that bibles are not to be taken from prisoners under any circumstances?

26.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the conduct of Lance-Corporal Barker at Pries Heath Camp, Whitchurch, in kicking, hitting, and bullying the conscientious objectors placed under his charge; and whether he will have an inquiry made into their ill-treatment from headquarters and prevent any repetition of such conduct?

A report on these allegations has been called for, but has not yet been received, but in the meantime I must not be taken as in any way accepting the correctness of these allegations.

30 and 32.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War (1) whether, in view of the fact that there is evidence to show that the military authorities in many instances are testing the bona fides of the conscientious objector by subjecting him to physical violence, he will take steps either to prohibit this procedure or to promote legislation to provide a scale of punishments to test conscientious objection and so secure uniformity of treatment; and (2) whether his attention has been called to the fact that some officers appear to consider that they are entitled to test the bona fides of a conscientious objector by subjecting him to treatment of the nature of torture; and can he say whether any steps have been taken to correct this impression?

The bona or the mala fides of an insubordinate soldier does not concern the officer whose duty it may be to punish him under the Army Act or "Rules for Detention Barracks and Military Prisons." The latter part of the question, therefore, does not arise.

Is it not a fact that these men are being subjected to ill-treatment for the purpose of compelling them to forego their conscientious objections?

31.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, when the parents, wife, or near relative of a conscientious objector has reason to believe that he has been subjected to physical violence, he will permit an examination of the man to be made by a doctor instructed by the person so informed, in order that the truth as to grave allegations of ill-treatment may be established?

No, Sir; such an examination cannot be permitted. A soldier possesses a statutory remedy under Section 43 of the Army Act for bringing to light any grievance under which he deems himself to be suffering.

In view of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman yesterday asked hon. Members to make individual inquiries before putting down questions, how can they arrive at the facts unless some opportunity is given them of getting an independent examination of a man who says he has been subjected to ill-treatment?

All I suggested to hon. Members was that they should themselves ascertain the facts if they possibly could. If my hon. Friend tells me they cannot do it, I must bow to that, but I should have thought there were methods which could be employed to ascertain whether there was a prima facie case, supposing any ill-treatment occurred, to justify an inquiry.

Will the right hon. Gentleman suggest any method by which such an investigation can be made?

An one in the district would surely be cognisant more or less of the facts. My hon. Friend has many acquaintances in and around those places, and he can easily ascertain from them.

Is it not a recognised fact that any soldier has the right to appeal to a higher officer if he thinks he is ill-treated?

Soldiers' Grievances

20.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he will take means to draw the attention of Members of Parliament to Army Council Instruction No. 897, which forbids officers and men of the Army from bringing forward grievances through the medium of solicitors or of Members of Parliament; and does this instruction apply to officers on half pay or in the Reserve of Officers, and to men in the Army Reserve not yet called up for service?

The instructions in question were addressed to persons who are subject to the Army Act, and, in these circumstances, I have no doubt where soldiers disobey the King's Regulations and are dealt with accordingly, they will, themselves, bring the matter to the attention of third parties who have interested themselves on their behalf, with a view to interventions by third parties ceasing. The answer to the last part of the question is that if and when the officers and men mentioned are subject to the Army Act, the instructions in question will apply to them.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give us an assurance that no soldier will ever be put in a worse position by bringing forward his grievance through the medium of a Member of this House?

Well, Sir, I cannot give any such undertaking, but, of course, such is not intended. If, however, a soldier were to continue to do what is laid down as a contravention of the Regulations, then I cannot say that he would not deserve some punishment.

Arising out of that, can my right hon. Friend tell us why soldiers who are also Members of this House can do this kind of thing in the House, and our constituents cannot do it through us?

Field Punishment

22 and 23.

asked whether (1) in the form of field punishment known as crucifixion the fixing of the limbs is sometimes so tight as to allow of no mobility at all; whether any instructions have been issued to safeguard against this occurring; and (2) whether all soldiers sentenced to the form of field punishment known as crucifixion are examined by a medical officer before undergoing punishment?

29.

asked whether, under the French Military Code, soldiers can be subjected to any punishment of the nature of field punishment No. 1, commonly known as "crucifixion"?

I am not aware whether, under the French Military Code, there is any punishment similar to the nature of field punishment No. 1. The expression "crucifixion" is one not known to military law, and is one which I have not heard except in questions put by, and speeches made by, hon. Members. The instructions for field punishment have been laid before Parliament, and I am not aware that, prisoners have been subjected to any greater restraint than is allowed by these instructions. Soldiers are not examined before undergoing punishment, but a medical officer is available should his services be required.

Has the right hon. Gentleman taken medical evidence as to the very serious effects that may sometimes be produced by this punishment on men who have not a strong physique?

I will read that part of the Army Rules relating to field punishment which bears on the point:

"Every portion of field punishment shall be inflicted in such a manner as is calculated not to cause injury or to leave any permanent mark on the offender; and a portion of the field punishment must, be discontinued upon a report by a responsible medical officer that the continuance of that portion would be prejudicial to the offender's health."

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is perfectly well known that this punishment is known as crucifixion in the ranks of the Army?

Recruiting (Ireland)

25.

asked whether the increase in recruiting record in Ireland has stimulated the flow of recruits; and whether the War Office are satisfied with the present and future prospects of recruiting on the voluntary basis in Ireland?

The circumstances of the moment in relation to recruiting and affairs generally in Ireland do not seem propitious for making a statement of the kind suggested in the question.

Subalterns (Civil Obligations)

63.

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether, in view of the fact that the pay in cash to second-lieutenants of Infantry of the Line serving at home varies from 7s. 6d. to 10s. a day and the pay of first-lieutenants is 1s. a day more, he can see his way to extend to subalterns of the Line serving at home the same privileges as to grants for meeting rent, rates, taxes, and other liabilities as have been granted to those serving in the ranks?

I regret I am not yet in a position to inform the hon. Member of the decision in this matter, but I expect to be able to do so in a few days.

Retail Grocery Trade

65.

asked whether any understanding has been arrived at that married men over thirty years of age employed in the retail grocery trade are to be exempted from military service; and whether this understanding extends to proprietors or managing sales men over the age of thirty employed in the retail butchers' trade?

My right hon. Friend is not aware of any understanding of the kind mentioned.

Sole Heads Of Businesses

66.

asked whether, in regard to an application for exemption from the sole head of a business which would be ruined if he was called up for military service, and who has dependants, he has advised the tribunals to have regard to any allowances and other assistance which may be available; whether the tribunals are also to consider the fact that these allowances will not be continued after the War, and that, owing to the business being lost and the man having no capital to start afresh, he and his dependants may be permantly reduced in status and deprived of their means of earning their livelihood?

It is for the tribunals to deal with each case on its merits, taking account of all relevant considerations, including such matters as are referred to in the question.

Cases Of Serious Hardship

67.

asked with regard to the recent regulations for tribunals under the Military Service Acts, whether he has observed that in Section 17 of the accompanying circular he has stated that among the cases of serious hardship in respect of which exemptions may be granted is that of a man whose future business or career would be ruined and the fruits of much effort and expenditure probably lost, whereas in the regulations, Section II. (1), the references to such cases are apparently limited to men having families; whether the circular properly indicates his recommendation; and whether the tribunals are to understand that among the cases in which they are authorised to grant exemption is that of a man, without family or dependants, whose business would be ruined and the fruits of much effort and expenditure lost?

The Instruction in the Regulations was inserted in order to redeem the promise given in the course of the discussions on the recent Bill that the case of married men with dependants who were the sole heads of businesses should be specially referred to. Paragraphs 14 to 17 of the circular deal with a variety of cases of serious hardship with which the tribunals may have to deal. The circular expressly indicates that not all cases of serious hardship are covered by the words of the Instruction.

Royal Naval Reserve

68.

asked the President of the Local Government Board if he will see that, where one member of a family joins the Royal Naval Reserve in terms of the Military Service Act, 1916, and has not yet been called up, no injury is thereby done to another member of the same family by any tribunal to which he may be appealing refusing to recognise the first member as effectively transferred to-the Naval Reserve, and will issue instructions to that effect?

My right hon. Friend does not think it necessary to issue special instructions on this matter. It is for the tribunal to take due account of all facts relevant to a case.

Anti-Conscriptionist Movement

86.

asked the Home Secretary by many of the leaders of the Anti-Conscriptionist movement who have been sentenced by courts-martial to terms of imprisonment have since been released; whether these men of military age have restarted their efforts to break down the Military Service Act immediately on release; whether he is aware that Clifford Allen, the chairman of the "No-Conscription Fellowship," urged men of military age at a meeting at 186, Bishopsgate, on 8th April, to defy the Military Service Act, and promised assistance to all who were absentees, and that Clifford Allen was sentenced to a term of imprisonment; will he say whether he is now at liberty; and will he say whether he addressed a meeting at the offices of the National Council against Conscription, at 22, Bride Lane, E.C., on Tuesday evening, the 20th instant, at six o'clock?

The answer to the first past of the question is that there have been no releases, so far as I am aware, and the second part does not therefore arise. I am informed that Mr. Clifford Allen did urge men to defy the Military Service Act, and that he promised assistance as stated. Mr. Clifford Allen has not been sentenced. He is still at liberty, but is due to report for service on the 30th June. The meeting of the executive committee took place from 4.30 to 6.0 on the date mentioned.

Donington Hall

15.

asked whether Donington Hall has been given up as a place of internment for prisoners of war, or whether it is proposed to give it up; whether there is any, and, if so, what limit to the supply of wines and spirits and beer for German officers interned there so long as they pay for them; and whether an American bar has been arranged there for their use?

There is no intention of giving up Donington Hall as a place of internment for prisoners of war. The consumption of light wines and beers, which alone are permitted, is strictly limited by the Commandant. There is no American bar. I had hoped the hon. Gentleman would have given the administration credit for being more sensible than appears from his question.

The amount is a question which involves figures, and the hon. Gentleman did not ask me that I cannot give the figures at the moment

Are the prisoners allowed to buy wines and spirits at a time when we are not allowed to buy them in our own clubs?

That is another question of detail which I cannot answer on the spur of the moment. I should think it doubtful that any such privilege was granted.

Is it not time that this treatment ceased in view of the treatment received by our prisoners in Germany?

I had hoped that my answer conveyed to the hon. Member the impression that no such privileges do exist. If I am not able to convince the hon. Member that is not my fault.

24.

asked what was the total cost of the maintenance of Donington Hall during the year 1915?

I regret that the figures are not available for the period prior to 1st May. Apart from capital outlay and the original cost of furnishing, the cost of maintenance for the last eight months of 1915 amounted to £2,250.

1St/10Th London Battalion (Temporary Promotions)

4.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether about twenty non-commissioned officers and men of the 1st/10th London battalion were promoted temporarily while on active service in Gallipoli, and since their return to this country have been paid according to the new rank given to them while overseas; whether he is aware that recently new orders were issued reverting these men to the rank they held before proceeding overseas, which order in effect makes them liable to refund Service money paid to them by their battalion on the higher rank scale, in one case amounting to as much as £35; and whether he will at once issue instructions which will prevent any financial liability falling upon these men?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I put this question down a week ago, so as to give him time to make inquiries?

Scottish Recruiting Offices (Employes' Wages)

9.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that men are employed in certain Scottish recruiting offices at 24s. a week, or 3s. 5d. a day for seven days; and whether he will inquire into this scale of payments, with a view to increasing them?

Trebitsch Lincoln

16.

asked whether, after the outbreak of War, Trebitsch Lincoln acted as a censor in the War Office; and, if so, when, and for how long, and what duties he performed, and on whose recommendation and on "whose appointment he became a censor?

Trebitsch Lincoln was employed in the Postal Censorship for about a month, from the 20th August, 1914, to read Hungarian letters. His work was unsatisfactory, and shortly after being reprimanded for annotating letters, he expressed a wish to retire, and his resignation was accepted. As regards the last part, the usual references were aked for and given.

Royal Engineers (Officers)

17.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether in the Territorial Force and New Armies field companies of Royal Engineers are invariably commanded by majors, whereas in the Royal Engineers of the Regular Army, although the establishment equally provides for a major to command such companies, no captains are promoted even to temporary rank while holding such appointment; and will he say why, if it is necessary for an officer commanding a field company to have the rank of field officer in the case of the Territorial Force and the New Armies, there is an equal case to give Regular officers the same temporary standing?

The hon. and gallant Member correctly states in the first part of his question the usual practice, although it is not invariable. The answer to the second part of the question is that promotion in the Royal Engineers (Regular) is carreid out regimentally as a whole and not by individual units.

Is it not time to recognise that we have only one Army for the purposes of the War, and to do away with the preference which is now given to the Territorial Forces over the old Armies in the matter of temporary promotion?

It is a very difficult problem which the hon. and gallant Gentleman raises. I am unaware that undue preference has been given to the Territorial Forces.

Army Contractors

28.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he can give the names of the firms to whom contracts have been given for making fur coats for the Army?

The names of firms with whom such contracts are placed are published monthly in the "Labour Gazette" issued by the Board of Trade.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that none of these firms are English firms; that they are either German or Austrian, or firms with German or Austrian names?

No, I was not aware of that. But there is a difference between a German or an Austrian firm's name, and a German or an Austrian firm.

Will the hon. Gentleman say whether there is one English firm in this matter?

Will the hon. Gentleman kindly give notice of these questions? They are not on the Paper.

Naval And Military Services (Pensions And Grants)

27.

asked what, if any, arrangements have been made on and after 30th June for carrying on the work hitherto carried on by the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association and the Soldiers' and Sailors' Help Society in respect to the advancement of money in the matter of soldiers' pensions; and whether if new bodies are to be brought into existence they will be charged with the duty of giving advice where advice is needed, a duty which has been carried out by the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association and the Soldiers' and Sailors' Help Society?

The Regulations (Part II.) made by the Statutory Committee under Section 3 (1) (b) of the Naval and Military War Pensions, etc., Act, 1915, provide for the advancement of funds in respect of the pensions of discharged sailors and soldiers. In reply to the latter part of the question, I may remind the hon. Member that local committees are charged by Section 4 (d) of the Act with the function of giving information and advice to applicants for pensions or grants or separation allowances.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether they do give this advice?

They have instructions to give adequate advice, and no doubt they will give it.

33.

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether a soldier refused an increase of pension by the Chelsea Commissioners can thereafter apply to the Statutory Committee for a supplementary pension?

It is, no doubt, competent for a soldier to make an application to the Statutory Committee for a supplementary pension in the circumstances mentioned j but the Committee would think it undesirable, without full communication with the Chelsea Commissioners, in effect to revise the decision of the Chelsea Hospital Medical Boards. The Committee have, in fact, communicated with the Commissioners in cases of this kind, and when they have been able to supply fresh evidence the Commissioners have shown themselves very ready to reconsider the matter.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether that would prejudice the case of an applicant or not?

Munitions

Woolwich Arsenal Wardkks (Overtime)

34.

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that the chief warders employed at Woolwich Arsenal are now paid for overtime worked up to twelve hours in any one week, but that the ordinary warders receive no pay for overtime whatever; whether he is aware that three warders worked 130 hours, 120 hours, and sixty hours, respectively, during the first twelve months of the War; and whether he will undertake to see that the ordinary warder receives similar treatment, as far as overtime is concerned, to the chief warder?

The chief warders at Woolwich Arsenal have to attend for very long hours and are not paid for the first three hours of overtime on any day. The ordinary warders work in shifts of about eight hours, and are paid at a consolidated rate, which was fixed to cover overtime. Though it has not been possible in the time available to verify the statement of the number of hours overtime actually worked, I understand that they show weekly averages greatly below those which prevailed when the consolidated rate was adopted.

Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)

73.

asked the Minister of Munitions how the licences in Annan stand with regard to the operation of the Local Veto Act in Scotland; and whether the Board of Control is to take out what has been paid for them prior to the operation of that Act, or is the scheme a temporary one?

It does not appear to me that the operation of the Local Veto Act in Scotland will be prejudiced by the action taken by the Central Control Board at Annan.

Does that mean that the licences in Annan will be subject to the veto of the people in 1921?

Is it a fact that the licences in Annan are free from the inspection of the police and are outside the power of the licensing authority?

74.

asked the Minister of Munitions whether the Control Board has achieved any reduction in the consumption of alcohol; whether they have instituted any counter-attractions; and, if so, where and of what nature?

If my hon. Friend will refer to the recently published Second Report of the Control Board (Cd. 8243) he will find a full account of the work of the Board, both upon its restrictive and upon its constructive side.

Has my right hon. Friend read that himself and does he know that it does not deal with the question of the restriction of consumption?

75.

asked the Minister of Munitions what is the nature of the agreement made by the Board of Control at Carlisle; whether the arrangements with the breweries include their tied houses outside the area; what is the nature of the Redemption Scheme, or whether this department is one of a Permanent Board?

The Control Board have decided to acquire the licensed trade interest, including the breweries, in the city of Carlisle and the immediate neighbourhood. The precise extent of the area and other details are now under consideration. As regards the last part of the question, I must refer the hon. Member to the Act and Regulations under which the Control Board was constituted, namely, the Defence of the Realm (Amendment) (No. 3) Act, 1915, and the Defence of the Realm (Liquor Control) Regulations, 1915.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether the tied houses belonging to the brewers which will be even outside the area of consideration will be dealt with in the Carlisle experiment?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he has received any estimate of the cost of this operation?

76.

asked the Minister of Munitions when the Report of the Treasury Advisory Committee on certain proposals for the State purchase of the licensed liquor trade, the issue of which as a Parliamentary Paper was promised on 6th April last, will be published?

I understand that the Treasury are now taking steps to issue the Report as a Parliamentary Paper.

May I ask what that answer means? Will it be issued within a few days or week?

77.

asked the Minister of Munitions the result of the inquiry which has been held into the working of the orders of the Central Control Board for the County of Wilts; whether at some of the principal towns no evidence* has been called for from anyone but the police; and whether he has received any information as to how the Order affects home-trade brewers and the agricultural population generally?

I am informed that as the result of an inquiry by one of their own officers into the operation of the Order for the Southern Military and Transport Area (including the county of Wilts), in the course of which large numbers, of persons in responsible and representative positions were interviewed, in addition to the police, the Control Board have come to the conclusion that the Order is working satisfactorily and that the particular complaints which have been made regarding it cannot be met without interfering with the main object of the Order.

Shells And Guns

78.

asked the Minister of Munitions if he can now make a statement, without risk of conveying any useful information to the enemy, on the reserves of shells and guns at the outbreak of the War, and the explanation of so many lost months in organising the resources of the country for the maximum production of shrapnel, high explosives, and guns?

I do not think that it is in the public interest that such a statement should be made.

Soldier Sons (Support Of Parents)

35.

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether any provision has been made or is proposed to be made for the parent of a soldier who was not actually dependent on him before he joined the Army, but who, through age, or illness, or bereavement, has been deprived of the means of support, and would naturally have been expected to be supported by the son who has been called up for military service?

The Regulations issued by the Statutory Committee provide that a local committee may, subject to certain limits and conditions, grant a special separation allowance equivalent to the amount which in the committee's opinion the soldier or sailor might presumably have been expected to give if he were living at home.

War Office Tent Contracts

36.

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether an order for 150,000 tents has been placed with a firm who are not tent makers; and, if so, were the tent manufacturers given the usual opportunity to tender for the contract, and were the prices of some of the contractors below those of the successful firm of non-tent makers; was a maximum price paid to this firm; and, if so, will he explain why this was done; and is he aware that, against the general recommendation of the Home Office, the firm in question being so favoured with contracts is employing workwomen on night work and advertising for further women to work at night, whilst the workers in the same trades in the east and south-east districts of London are out of employment?

An order for 150,000 tents was placed in June, 1915, with a certain firm after they had satisfactorily executed orders for smaller quantities. The contract has now been completed. Two hundred and nineteen other firms were invited to tender at the same time, and every suitable offer lower in price and some higher in price were accepted to meet the Army requirements. The point regarding the employment of women at night should apparently be addressed to the Home Office.

Do I understand that all the tenders that were sent in were accepted irrespective of price?

I do not say all were accepted, but I say 219 other firms were invited to tender, and, speaking from memory, I do not think it is going too far to say that everybody who could make satisfactory tents at a satisfactory price was given an opportunity of doing it.

Officers' Allowances

37.

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office why there is such continued delay in paying in officers' field, lodging, fuel, and light allowances; whether he is aware that many allowances for February were not paid to the bankers till 25th March and that those for March were only credited on 3rd May; and, in view of the fact that many officers now live on their pay and allowances, he will take steps to expedite payment?

I am not aware that there has been any general delay in these payments, but if my hon. Friend will be good enough to let me have details of the cases which he has in mind I will make inquiries.

Head Kent (City Restaurant Owner's Payment)

39.

asked whether the owner of a restaurant in the City, who pays £800 head rent, and whose total income under restricted hours, excluding any salary to himself, is £500, has any right of recovery against his landlord; or, if the Government has decided that licence holders must suffer losses by the action of a Government Department, should these losses be shared by all those having a revenue from the property instead of being confined to the actual man who carries on the business?

These would seem to be legal questions to be settled between the various persons interested in the property, and I do not think that any Government Department would be in a position to offer advice.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to relieve cases of this kind from excessive taxation to which they are subjected?

War Loan (Income Tax Deduction)

41.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why deductions from the interest paid upon the 4½ per cent. War Loan on 2nd June last was made at the rate of 5s. in the £ for the whole period of six months, whereas during four months of that period the authorised rate of tax was 3s. only; and upon what principle does he justify this excess and unauthorised taxation?

The hon. Member is under a misapprehension, as under the law Income Tax was deductible at the rate in force when the interest in question became payable, namely, 5s. in the £.

Entertainments Duty

(Bands In Parks)

42.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that the Customs and Excise Departments are insisting that persons attending band performances in our public parks, and paying 1d. for the use of the chairs placed together round a bandstand, must also pay the Entertainments Tax; and whether this is in accord with his statement that there would be no duty on charges made for programmes or for seats at such performances?

In the case of band performances in public parks, the Entertainments Tax is not leviable on any payment made merely for the use of a chair provided such payment is not in any sense made, directly or indirectly, for admission to an enclosure. But when the arrangement of the chairs is such as to constitute an area reserved for the occupants of the chairs, the payment must be held to be a payment for admission to an entertainment and is subject to tax accordingly.

Liquor Traffic (Scotland)

43.

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he has received and submitted to His Majesty's Government a resolution passed by the corporation of the city of Glasgow urging that the liquor traffic be prohibited in Scotland during the continuation of the War, and that equitable provision be made for those who are affected thereby; and whether the Government proposes to take any action in this respect?

I have received a copy of the resolution referred to, which I understand has also been sent to other members of the Government. I am not in a position to make any statement in answer to the last part of the question.

National Health Insurance

(Crown Farm Tenant's Conviction)

44.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether his attention has been called to the recent conviction of a tenant of a Crown farm named Sydney Worth for continued offences under the National Health Insurance Act; and whether, seeing that this unmarried man and his father and brother own and occupy several thousands of acres of other agricultural land, he will consider the advisability of the Crown resuming possession of this most suitable farm in order that it may be available for use under the provisions of the Small Holdings Colonies Bill now before Parliament?

As I understand that the farm in question is held under a lease which has still several years to run, the question of the resumption of possession by the Commissioners of Woods, and of the suitability of the farm for a small holding colony do not arise.

Game Preserving

45.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the advisability of suspending the Game Laws until after the War, so as to release for national service, both military and civil, all those men who are still being employed as game-keepers, also to relieve the police who, in game-preserving districts, are still devoting time in putting the Game Laws into operation; and further to prevent the damage to growing crops, and consequent wastage of food?

I fear that the action which I understand my hon. Friend to suggest might be regarded as controversial in view of the fact that game preserving has been very largely decreased, if not wholly abandoned. I shall be glad to hear of any cases in which this may not be the case, so that action may be taken through the War Agricultural Committees, which would, I believe, be likely to be more practicable and effective than legislation. It should, I think, be remembered in this connection that no keepers of military age are in any way entitled to exemption from military service on account of their occupation, and that the older men who now alone remain are doing good work in helping to keep down rats and rabbits. They have also in many cases, which are worthy of general imitation, been lent for the purpose of helping farmers at the times of year when they most need help.

Economic Conference In Paris

49.

asked the Prime Minister whether an early opportunity will be given to the House to discuss the resolutions adopted by the Economic Conference of the Allies at Paris?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how hon. Members who wish to discuss those resolutions can do so?

Bank Holiday (Excursion Trains)

60.

asked whether the Government will approach the railway companies with a view to their running excursion trains at cheaper fares during 6th, 8th, and 9th August, Saturday Monday and Tuesday, for the two Bank Holidays, subject to military exigencies, in order to provide those engaged upon Government work with the necessary change of air and environment to enable them to recover health and strength after their prolonged labours at high pressure during the past few months?

I am informed by the railway companies that they think that with their depleted staffs it will be as much as they can do to handle the traffic which is expected on their lines on the occasion of the August holidays, and that it will not therefore be practicable for them to run excursion trains at reduced fares, as suggested by the hon. Gentleman.

Discharged Soldiers And Sailors (Employment)

61.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture if the Board will publish the evidence upon which were based the Introduction and Part I. of the Final Report of the Departmental Committee appointed to consider the settlement and employment on the land of discharged sailors and soldiers.

The Committee did not consider it necessary that the evidence referred to should be published, and for this reason and for the sake of economy this view is also that of the Board.

Can any hon. Member who particularly wishes to make use of this evidence have a copy for his private use?

Yes; we would do our best to make it available. Copies exist, and by permission of the person giving evidence I should think it might be made use of.

Soldiers' Parcels

72.

asked the Postmaster-General whether parcels up to 11 pounds weight can now be sent to soldiers at the front for the ordinary charge for postage; and, if not, whether he can see his way to restore the ordinary rates and conditions for sending parcels to men who are serving their country abroad?

The reason for the reduction in the maximum weight of parcels for the Expeditionary Forces is the necessity of keeping within reasonable limits the number and bulk of the parcels sent overseas. Nearly 100,000 parcels a day are dispatched to France—a number which heavily taxes the resources both of the cross-Channel steamships and the military transport overseas. The step was taken after full discussion with the military authorities, and I fear that I can hold out no hope under existing conditions of a return to the former maximum weight of 11 pounds.

Was not the reason given for reducing the weight of parcels owing to the very large number at Christmas and the New Year?

Yes, that is so, but the number of troops sent overseas has been increased since that date.

Rubber-Tapping Tools

79.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether rubber-tapping tools made in Germany are permitted to be sent in Dutch or neutral vessels to the Dutch East Indies?

Wool (Army Purchases)

80.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the prohibition of the sale of wool will press hardly on many sheep farmers; and if, while the prohibition exists, suitable arrangements will be made for farmers to obtain an adequate advance without interest on their crops?

The necessary organisation for purchasing wool from the farmer is now being set up, and as soon as arrangements can be made to take delivery it is proposed to pay the farmer 75 per cent, of the estimated value of his clip, the balance being paid as soon as the wool has been inspected. Interest at 5 per cent, will be credited to farmers who are required to retain their wool after a certain period.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether all the wool will be bought on the premises of the farmer or whether it will be delivered at the usual place of sale?

Will the hon. Gentleman say whether the rules here laid down are applied to Ireland?

Yes; we sell all the wool which is not found suitable for military requirements.

Seventy-five per cent, will be paid by way of advance, and the balance of 25 per cent, will be paid as soon as the wool has been inspected.

I hope that it will be done by agreement. As I have already said in answer to a question, our proposal is that we should take the pre-war price and add a suitable percentage to meet the extra cost the farmer now has to bear.

Knitting And Hosiery Industry (Scotland)

81.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if the knitting and hosiery industry is of importance to many districts in Scotland; and if he will relax the conditions under which the sale of wool is prohibited in such districts?

The bulk of the 1916 clip of British and Irish wool will be reserved for military purposes, and in arranging distribution regard will be had to the capacity of Scottish firms to undertake military orders. Such portion of the 1916 clip of British and Irish wool as is unsuitable for military purposes will be sold in the open market.

Will the hon. Gentleman receive a deputation on this matter with reference to the special circumstances of the knitting industry and the deprivation of those people of their means of living?

Nurseries And Market Gardens (Alien Labour)

82.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the number of aliens who are now being engaged to take the place of men working in nursery and market gardens who have been called to the Colours; and whether it is proposed or is possible to ensure reinstatement of these men on the termination of hostilities should they desire it?

I am aware that a certain number of aliens have been engaged for this purpose, but I understand that the total number is not great. The market gardeners who have increased the number of aliens in their employ have, I am informed, given assurances that the additional labour so obtained will only be retained while the Englishmen so replaced are away. The whole question of the reinstatement of sailors and soldiers upon their return to civil life is at present under careful consideration by the Government.

Restriction Of Imports (Paper)

83.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been called to the Returns of the first three months' working under the recent restrictions of imports into this country of paper and paper-making material by 33 per cent, and to the fact that these Returns show that the quantity of imported paper-making materials corresponds to this figure, whilst on the other hand the imports of paper only show a decrease of 11 per cent.; and if he can explain this discrepancy?

The full effect of the restrictions on the importation of paper was not felt until some time after their imposition owing to the fact that large supplies were already en route and had to be admitted. Certain descriptions of paper and board have moreover been imported in increased quantities owing to Government requirements for war purposes. In the case of paper-making materials, the effect of the restriction has been enhanced by the prohibition imposed in Sweden on the exportation of chemical pulp.

Mineral Waters

84.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if the importation of British mineral waters into France is prohibited, whilst the importation of French mineral waters are permitted free import into the United Kingdom; and will he say what steps the Board of Trade intend to take to protect British mineral water manufacturers from the damage that is being done to this British industry?

The importation into France of medicinal mineral waters is prohibited. I understand that the French authorities will be prepared to give favourable consideration +o applications for licences to import such waters from the United Kingdom, and if the hon. Member will furnish me with particulars of any cases in which licences have been refused I will have inquiry made.

Are not the mineral water manufacturers under the belief that under the regulations that have been issued they are prohibited at the present time from exporting entirely?

Naturalised Germans And Austrians

87.

asked the Home Secretary the number of Germans and Austrians who were naturalised in the United Kingdom in each year from 1910 to 1914?

Excluding readmissions of British-born subjects, the figures for the five years are: Germans, 347, 334, 397, 409, and 262; Austrians and Hungarians, 84, 135, 111, 141, and 85. As regards the figures for 1914, I would refer my hon. Friend to my predecessor's answer to the hon. Member for York on the 27th April, 1915.

88.

asked the Home Secretary the number of naturalised Germans and Austrians resident in the Metropolitan Police area?

I can only give the figures for the County of London, and for 1911, the year of the last census. They are: Naturalised Germans, 1,925 males, 850 females; naturalised Austrians and Hungarians, 497 males, 275 females.

Enemy Aliens

89.

asked the Home Secretary the present number of registered German and Austrian enemies residing in the Metropolitan Police area who are not interned; the number of males and females; and if all the males are over military age?

The total number of persons of German and Austrian nationality at present residing in the Metropolitan Police area, excluding British-born wives, is as follows:—

  • Germans: males, 4,931; females, 4,418.
  • Austrians: males, 3,796; females, 2,654.
Of the males, 2,018 Germans and 3,012 Austrians are of military age. As I have frequently pointed out, the alien enemies still at liberty are all persons whose cases have been considered by the Advisory Committees and recommended for exemption from internment or repatriation for special reasons. They are mainly composed of persons of friendly race or sympathies, e.g., Czechs, Poles, Slavs, natives of Alsace-Lorraine, who are only technically of Gorman or Austrian nationality, or else the special ground for their exemption is that they are over seventy years of age, or of thirty or forty years' residence here, or some similar reason.

Is it not the case that in the Metropolitan area there were over 5,000 trained enemy aliens of military age?

90.

asked the Home Secretary if he is aware that Baron von Bissing has recently been enjoying a state of liberty in London; and what special privileges of leave are granted to him seeing that he is interned?

I am not aware that Baron von Bissing has recently been enjoying a state of liberty in London, and it is not the fact. He has not been at liberty at any time since he was interned on 20th September, 1915.

91.

asked why all enemy aliens now at large in this country are not either interned or deported?

I will make a statement on this subject on the Home Office Vote on Thursday.

Loss Of Hms "Hampshire"

92.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the precedent set up at the instance of Queen Victoria, when a medal was struck to commemorate the loss of the "Drummond Castle," he will consider whether it would be appropriate to issue a medal to commemorate the loss of the "Hampshire" and the tragic death of Lord Kitchener?

I have inquired into the case of the "Drummond Castle," and find that this is not a precedent for the proposal made by my hon. Friend. The medal approved by Her late Majesty Queen Victoria was given, not to commemorate the loss of the vessel, but as a token of gratitude to French fishermen for the services they rendered on the occasion of the wreck. It is not proposed to adopt the suggestion made in the question.

93.

asked whether the sea on the West Coast of the Orkneys was swept for mines previous to the passage of the "Hampshire"; and, if so, what time elapsed between the sweeping of the sea for mines at the spot where the "Hampshire" sank and the accident to the vessel?

I think my hon. Friend will see, on reflection, that it is clearly impossible in naval interests to make any statement about the precautions taken by the Commander-in-Chief, Grand Fleet, for the protection of the ships in his command.

94.

asked where the inquiry into the loss of the "Hampshire" took place; and who conducted the inquiry?

The inquiry was held at a naval base under the presidency of a captain of the Royal Navy.

Jutland Naval Battle

95.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will consider the desirability of recognising by means of an honours list without further delay the gallantry and heroism of officers and men of all ranks in the recent victory at Horn Reef?

The desirability of recognising the gallantry and heroism of officers and men of the Royal Navy will be considered on this as on all occasions.

National Treasures (Sales In Ireland)

96.

asked under what law the sale and use of national pictures, albums, and badges are now, without Proclamation, prevented by the police in some parts of Ireland and not in other parts; and whether the House will be informed of any uniform practice in this matter?

Any publication or printed matter likely to cause disaffection is prohibited under the Regulations for the Defence of the Realm; and it is also an offence under these Regulations to attempt by any means to cause disaffection among the civilian population. It will be for the competent military authority to decide upon the facts in each particular case whether the sale or use of the matters referred to by the hon. Member comes within the Regulations and calls for prosecution. Beyond this no uniform practice can be prescribed.

The right hon. Gentleman has not said what is the uniform practice and why it is followed in one place and not in another?

Operations In Southern Peksia

97.

asked the Secretary of State for India whether the expedition under Brigadier-General Sir Percy Sykes, in Southern Persia, is being carried out under Brigadier-General Sir Percy Sykes, Foreign Office, or the Government of India?

Sir Percy Sykes is acting under the orders of the Government of India.

Mesopotamia Operations (Surgeon-General Sir W Babtie)

98.

asked the Secretary of State for India for what length of time Surgeon-General Sir W. Babtie, the Director of Medical Services in India, and the officer stated to have been responsible in regard to medical provision for the expedition to Mesopotamia, was absent from his post during certain months of 1915; and who was appointed to officiate for him during his absence?

Surgeon-General Sir W. Babtie left India for a short time early in 1915 to carry out certain work entrusted to him by the War Office. He was not replaced during his temporary absence. He vacated the appointment of Director of Medical Services in India in June, 1915, when he was succeeded by Surgeon-General MacNeece. I am not aware by what authority General Babtie is stated to have been responsible for the medical arrangements in Mesopotamia, and I would deprecate any such assertion.

Treasury Payments To Clergy Of Established Church Of Scotland

38.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with regard to the Treasury payments to the clergy of the Established Church of Scotland on l5th May and on 29th September, whether the payment on 29th September represents the sum due for the half-year ending on the Scottish term of Martinmas, 11th November; and, if so, whether any steps are taken to prevent misunderstanding on this subject at the time of paying?

I would refer my hon. Friend to Section 11 of the Act 60, Geo. III., cap. 84, which provides that the sums in question "shall be payable by two half-yearly payments at the terms of Whitsunday and Michaelmas in each year." There is no mention of Martinmas. The forms of receipt signed by the ministers to whom payment is made each September are in respect of payment "for the half-year to Michaelmas"

Colonial Office Vote

52.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will arrange for the Vote in Committee of Supply for the Colonial Office being taken at an early date?

53.

asked the Prime Minister whether and when he will give the House of Commons the opportunity of discussing the change in our Colonial policy inaugurated by the Secretary of State for the Colonies in his dispatch of 1st June to the Governors of our West African Colonies directing the imposition of taxation for our benefit and not for theirs; and, in view of the consequences of the action taken, he will undertake that this new policy shall not be put in operation without the express sanction of Parliament?

I think this matter can best be discussed on the Colonial Office Vote.

Dublin Metropolitan Police

54 and 55.

asked the Prime Minister (1) if his attention has been called to the correspondence between Sir John Ross and the late Chief Secretary for Ireland, in which the former declared that his resignation of the post of Chief Commissioner of the Dublin Metropolitan. Police in 1914 was a protest against an act of tyranny and of unfair dealing on the part of the Chief Secretary in dismissing the assistant commissioner, Mr. Harrel, for conduct which was approved by Sir John Ross, his superior officer, and for which the latter accepted full responsibility; whether, in view of Sir John Ross's statement that Mr. Harrel had always discharged his duties most faithfully and most efficiently and that the action for which Mr. Harrel was dismissed was taken with the concurrence of the Under-Secretary for Ireland, who later changed his mind and censured Mr. Harrel, and having regard to the vindication of Mr. Harrel's conduct by recent occurrences in Dublin, he proposes to reinstate Mr. Harrel or to compensate him for his treatment by the late Chief Secretary and the Under-Secretary for Ireland; (2) if his attention has been called to the charges made against Lord Shaw's Commission of Inquiry into the circumstances of the conflict between the military and the people in Dublin on 26th July, 1914, by Sir John Ross, who was then chief commissioner of police in Dublin, in a published letter to the late Chief Secretary, in which Sir John Ross asserts that all the Court of Inquiry did with reference to the conduct of Mr. Harrel was to make insinuations which were wholly unjustifiable, and to express some vague opinions, many of which did not even touch the issues before it, and that a great deal of evidence vital to the case was excluded from the consideration of the Court; and whether, in view of the gravity of such allegations made by a responsible officer, he proposes to have a further inquiry into all the circumstances, or to take any other action in the matter?

Yes, Sir, my attention has been called to the correspondence referred to in the two questions of the hon. Member. The answer to the concluding part of both questions is in the negative.

On the whole I do not think it is advisable at this time and under the circumstances to revive that question.

The statement attributed to Sir John Ross so far as it relates to me and my action on the occasion referred to is pure fiction.

Transvaal (Land Settlement Schemes)

62.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that, subsequent to the 'South African War, land settlement schemes were introduced in the Transvaal the object of which was to afford facilities to those who had rendered military service during the war to settle on the land; and if he will say how many of these land settlements were organised; how much land was taken for these schemes; how much money was expended in purchase, irrigation, fencing, building, on road-making and bridges, and on organisation and administration; the total amount of loans advanced to settlers and the loss thereon; how many soldiers availed themselves of these facilities; how many remained more than two years; and how many ex-soldiers are now to be found on these settlements?

I regret that the information at my disposal is insufficient to enable me to answer my hon. Friend's questions, but I should be glad to show him such information as I possess.

Old Age Pensions

64.

asked for the respective number of old age pensioners in Durham, Northumberland, and Cumberland?

The number of old age pensions payable in the administrative counties of Durham, Northumberland and Cumberland on the last Friday in March, 1916, was as follows: Durham, 11,798; Northumberland, 5,616; Cumberland, 4,065.

Greenwich Guardians (Balances)

69.

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he has received a communication from the Deptford Borough Council on the subject of the balances held by the guardians of the Greenwich Union, which are alleged to be excessive; and whether, having regard to the need for economy and the calls made on the ratepayers at the present time, he is prepared to institute an inquiry into the guardians' accounts, dealing more particularly with the amounts of the balances remaining in the guardians' hands from time to time?

My right hon. Friend has received the communication to which the hon. Member refers, and has brought the matter to the notice of the guardians. Their accounts are scrutinised at the periodical audits held by the district auditor, and I see no advantage in directing a special inquiry into the subject. There is no reason to suppose that the guardians desire to retain balances in excess of their possible requirements, or that the balances generally held by them have been excessive, when account is taken of the liabilities outstanding and of the amount of the balance represented by necessary stores in hand.

National Insukance Act

Committee Of Public Accounts

70.

asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, whether his attention has been drawn to the strictures contained in Clauses 13, 14, and 15 of the Report just issued by the Committee of Public Accounts upon certain expenditure stigmatised by the Committee as improper and irregular in character and considerable in amount; and whether he will state, approximately, what the amount of, money involved is?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The particulars asked for are given, so far as they are available, in the First and Second Reports on the work of the National Insurance Audit Department (Cd. 7885 and 8210). I may perhaps also refer the hon. Member to my statement on 20th June as to the general, character of the expenditure in question.

Approved Societies (Finance)

40.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the report of a speech by Mr. W. A. Platt at a meeting of Rechabite secretaries, held on the 3rd June at Leeds; whether Mr. Platt is a member of the Departmental Committee on Approved Society Finance and Administration; and, if so, whether his statement that the alternative to the recommendations in the Interim Report of that Committee that the nation should take over the whole of the approved societies, pool the whole of their funds, and form a national fund and society, is authorised and represents the view of the Treasury?

My attention had not previously been called to the speech in question, and I had not seen a report of it. The answer to the second question is in the affirmative. As regards the third, I do not gather from the hon. Member's question that Mr. Platt purported to go beyond the expression of his individual opinion.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman see the inconvenience of a member of this Committee making statements of this kind in order to influence the decisions of friendly societies by practically threatening them with suppression?

I understand that this gentleman, having signed the Report of this Committee, advocated its recommendation to people interested, and uttered a prophecy with which I have no concern.

Correspondence Of Members Of Parliament (Censorship)

71.

asked to what extent and on what grounds the undertaking not to tamper with the correspondence of Members of this House is departed from; why the letters are not frankly cut open by the Censor and acknowledged, but opened furtively; why some are never delivered; and whether he will introduce a uniform practice in this matter, and say what it is?

The last general statements made on this matter were those made by the Prime Minister and by myself on the 23rd May. A uniform practice has been introduced and is now in operation. Correspondence of every person in this country, except that of persons who habitually conduct official correspondence, is liable to censorship. All letters which have been opened in the United Kingdom should bear a label with the words "Opened by Censor." No letters are ever opened furtively by censors in this country, but letters from neutral countries occasionally come into the hands of the Censor which appear to have been opened and resealed by the writers or by some other person in the country of origin. All incoming letters are delivered to the addressee, unless they give cause for inquiry or are required for the purpose of the prosecution of the writer, the addressee, or a third person referred to in the letter.

Will the right hon. Gentleman or the Postmaster-General account for the fact that this envelope which I hold in my hand has been treated furtively in the manner described in my question and that other letters in the envelopes of this House have never been delivered; and how is it attempted to deny this when the actual envelopes so treated are produced?

I can only answer the first part of the question by assuming that some person has opened the envelope and resealed it, whether out of curiosity or from other motives I am unable to say; but I think that is clearly obvious.

Can the Postmaster-General guarantee the security of letters against opening except by the Censor?

Industrial Diseases (Callosity)

85.

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the industrial disease known as callosity; and, if so, whether, having regard to the nature of the disease, he can see his way to include it in the list of industrial diseases provided for under the provisions of the Workmen's Compensation Act?

I am aware that callosity, which is a hardening and thickening of the superficial layers of the skin, is common, especially on the hands and fingers, in certain occupations, but I am advised that it cannot be regarded as a definite disease and does not of itself cause incapacity. It could not therefore be scheduled under the Act.

Government Of Ireland

Proposed Settlement

May I ask the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to a statement by the hon. Member for West Belfast that any settlement of the Irish question must involve an amnesty for the Irish rebels who have recently been condemned to penal servitude, and whether the Cabinet has consented, or will be asked to consent, to this condition?

Orders Of The Day

Business Of The House

May I ask when we are to have the statement by the Prime Minister, promised yesterday, with regard to the treatment of the conscientious objectors?

The Prime Minister has asked the hon. Member for York (Mr. Rowntree) to postpone certain questions referring to this subject until tomorrow, and my right hon. Friend, by that request, conveyed that he would make his statement to-morrow. That, I hope, will be satisfactory to the hon. Member.

On the Orders of the Day is Order No. 3, Ways and Means, Committee, to be taken to-day?

Finance Bill

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

New Clause—(Motor Spirit Licence Duty)

(1) In addition to any other duties imposed by law in respect to motor spirit, there shall be charged, levied, and paid on a licence to be taken out by any person who desires to be supplied with motor spirit a duty at the rate of sixpence for every gallon of motor spirit with which he is authorised to be supplied by the licence.

Provided that—

  • (a) any person using motor spirit for purposes other than supplying motive power to a motor car or motor cycle or for supplying motive power to any motor car or motor cycle in respect of which duty is not payable under Section eighty-six of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, shall be entitled, in accordance with Regulations made under this Section, to an allowance or re- payment of the whole duty payable under this Section in respect of a licence authorising the supply of that motor spirit; and
  • (b) any duly qualified medical practitioner or registered veterinary surgeon using motor spirit for the purpose of supplying motive power to a motor car or motor cycle kept by him, while it is being used by him for the purposes of his profession, shall be entitled, in accordance with Regulations made under this Section, to an allowance or repayment of half the amount of duty payable under this Section in respect of a licence authorising the supply of that motor spirit.
  • (2) A licence shall be in such form, and shall be issued in such manner and subject to such conditions as may be prescribed by Regulations made for the purposes of this Section by the Board of Trade, and the Regulations may provide for the use of different forms of licence according to the purpose for which the supply of motor spirit is required, and every licence shall specify the amount of motor spirit authorised by the licence to be supplied to the holder.

    Regulations may provide for the surrender of any licence under this Section authorising the supply of motor spirit, and for any consequent repayment of duty.

    (3) Nothing in this Section or in any provisions supplemental to this Section shall apply to the supply of motor spirit to licensed dealers for the purpose of sale to customers.

    (4) In this Section, "motor spirit," has the same meaning as in Part VI. of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910.—[ Mr. McKenna.]

    Clause brought up, and read the first time.

    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."

    I wish to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he cannot do something to assist the owners of private motor cars who are using them for public work? I know there is a subsequent Clause which exempts cars used solely for Government work, but that does not meet the case, as the bulk of the privately-owned cars are not used entirely for Government work. They are used largely for Red Cross work and by the Headquarters Central Division of the Special Constabulary, who provide all cars for work in connection with Zeppelin raids. Again, they are used for recruiting work all over the country, and are so used voluntarily. I cannot help feeling that in imposing this tax on the users of these motor cars so employed the right hon. Gentleman is not taking sufficient account—he was not here on the last occasion when I raised the question—of the enormous amount of voluntary work which has been so very freely done and given by the motorists of the country during the last eighteen or twenty months. Some account might be taken of that. It is a little hard that, as a reward for all the work which motorists have voluntarily done, the right hon. Gentleman should propose this additional tax upon them. I ask the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether the real purpose of this tax is to stop the use of cars, or to raise revenue? We are entitled to know that. If the purpose is to stop the use of cars, it would be very much better that the right hon. Gentleman should have the courage of his opinions and should take the necessary steps to stop their use. What effect will this have? It enables the rich man to go on using his car as much as he likes, while it prevents the less well-to-do man and the poor man—there are many men owning motor cars to whom this tax will be an appreciable item—from using their cars. If the desire is to raise revenue, the poor man and the rich man are equally liable to taxation, but if the desire is to stop the use of petrol, all the Clause does is to prevent the moderately poor man from using a motor car, while the rich man can use his as much as he likes. I am sure that that is not the intention of the right hon. Gentleman.

    Motorists do not object to taking their share of war taxation. We are anxious to do our part, but we have done so much voluntarily that the right hon. Gentleman ought to give us some recognition. Those men who have placed their cars at the disposal of the public are entitled to some recognition for what they have done. I told the Committee on the last occasion that I could produce evidence from every county throughout the country as to the work done, and I gave certain figures in regard to certain counties. I am not going over all those again this afternoon. On that occasion I mentioned a Northern county and a Southern county. On this occasion I will mention a Midland county, not to show what is being done, but to show what is the view of the local authorities as to the assistance motorists have given. Take the county of Leicestershire. There is a large general hospital in Leicester. Ten thousand cases have been moved to or from that hospital in the eighteen months ending the beginning of April this year. That has been done through the voluntary agency of the owners of private motor cars. In addition to that, 5,500 wounded soldiers have been taken out to various entertainments by the owners of private motor cars. We tried to find out the view of the public officials and those responsible for the local government in the different neighbourhoods as to the action of motorists, and I would ask leave of the Committee to mention these facts because of the absurd and cruel aspersions constantly cast upon motorists in regard to the way in which they use their cars, suggesting that they are using them for pleasure purposes in time of war. The Colonel in Command of the district, from a military point of view, says that he has seen the attacks made upon them, and he knows what everybody has done to help the hospital and help his recruiting work in every way. The secretary to the Recruiting Committee authorises one to say that he has always had fifteen or twenty cars at his disposal for recruiting purposes whenever he wanted them. The county director of the Red Cross testifies to the same extent. The Mayor of Leicester, who would be in a better position than anybody else to say what has been done, states:
    "As Mayor I am in an exceptional position to form an opinion. I have been astonished at the willingness of motorists to assist in public work."
    The Chief Constable of Leicester testifies to the assistance motorists have given to the police of the borough, and the Chief Constable of the county testifies to the way in which motorists have placed themselves at the disposal of the Government. The right hon. Gentleman can have all these letters if he likes.

    As he does not dispute it and is prepared to give a concession to those motorists who place the whole time of their cars at the disposal of the Government, I suggest it is not outside his great ability to provide some scheme by which concessions might be made to those motorists who place nearly the whole time of their cars at the disposal of the Red Cross Hospital or the military authorities.

    I am afraid the hon. Member was not here yesterday. If he had been, he would be aware that we had a long discussion which dealt with that question on the Clause dealing with relief in respect of Motor-car Licence Duties, when the Committee decided that the word "exclusively" should remain.

    On a point of Order. Was not the question raised by the hon. Member for Brentford (Mr. Joynson-Hicks) whether the exemption to which we agreed last night with regard to the Licence Duty should not also apply to this new Petrol Duty? Would he not be in order in doing that?

    So far, certainly. The hon. Member appeared to me to be surveying the whole ground. On this Clause the sole question is whether such or other exemptions should be extended.

    As a matter of fact, I was in the precincts of the House yesterday, but I was unable to be here when the Clause was under discussion. I will not press the matter, but will ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to consider it. It may be impossible to give the necessary abatement with regard to the Licence Duty, but it is possible to create a scheme, when dealing with the question of Petrol Duty, to ease the burden on the shoulders of those who lend their cars for public purposes. I would only ask one other question, namely, when may we expect the Regulations and when the tax will come into operation? At present there is a great deal of uncertainty on this point, and everybody is wondering whether they ought to get their licences now.

    4.0 P.M.

    When we were dealing with the Resolution the right hon. Gentleman gave us some very clear information with regard to two or three matters which I do not think are fully provided for in the Clause. This is a new class of duty which is to be paid on the licence. I wish the right hon. Gentleman would give us some more information about the form of the licence. Will it contain a time limit, or will it be a blank licence to run on for any time? If the licence has a time limit, as was hinted, what arrangement will be made with regard to those cases in which the quantity of petrol specified is not entirely used? I would ask my right hon. Friend also to consider this great difficulty which may arise. Sometimes breakdowns occur and the consumption of petrol is greater than was expected. Suppose a man has only a few gallons on his licence and is caught on a long and important journey when he has run out, can it be explained what provision will be made? Then I should like to ask, will the exemptions provided in the Licence Duty also be granted in the case of the Petrol Duty? It strikes me that the Clause is really rather strict and does not cover all the cases that ought to be covered. Perhaps there is provision elsewhere for trade cars and the numerous points which were mentioned last night on the Licence Duty. Will these all be entitled to similar exemption?

    With regard to trade cars, the words "or for supplying motive power to any motor car or motor cycle in respect of which duty is not payable under Section 86 of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910," mean that trade cars are to be excluded from payment, including omnibuses. It means that cars in respect of which duty is not payable under Section 86 include trade cars, omnibuses, or commercial cars, and they will be excluded from Licence Duty under this Clause'. My right hon. Friend next asks me about what is to happen when a motorist finds that he has exhausted the amount to which he is entitled when he is in the middle of a journey and cannot get home. I am afraid he will have to find a friend who will give him motor spirit upon his, the friend's, licence. He will not be able to buy any more, therefore I should warn all motorists who are running to the end of their licensed amount to remember that they must not go greater distances than the remaining spirit will carry them. With regard to the time limit, I am unable to say anything at present. I do not know whether the licence will be for three or six months or for a year, or what period it may be, but the Regulations are to be prescribed by the Board of Trade. I cannot say anything about them at present because it is necessary that we should have the result of the census which is now being taken before any Regulations can be made as to the use of petrol. It may be, as the result of the census, that the motorists of the country are so moderate in their demands that every demand will be able to be met. I do not anticipate that.

    Suppose that the demand is really moderate in the case of a given person, will he be allowed to have the moderate amount of spirit for which he has asked or will he be averaged with people whose demands are excessive? There are people who really use motor spirit very moderately and only for really essential purposes. If they send in their moderate demand it is rather hard that they should have that cut down because some other person uses a very excessive amount.

    I assume, though I have no authority to speak on the subject, that no applicant will receive a larger amount of petrol merely because he has asked for a larger amount. I assume that everyone's case will be, so far as possible, judged on its merits. The penalty that any person pays who asks for a larger amount than he is likely to use will be that he will have to pay Licence Duty in respect of the whole amount for which he asked, although he gets the money back at the end of the time if he hag not used it; but no person will get more, merely because he asked for it.

    That is not quite my point Supposing a certain person asks for ten gallons a month—a very moderate amount—and supposing the majority of other people ask for fifty gallons, will an average be struck, and the person who asks for ten gallons only get five because other people are cut down?

    No, it will not be in proportion to the demand. It is no general proportion to what people ask. Every case will be judged upon its merits.

    Will a man who is six miles from a station have more consideration than another?

    I assume any Committee would naturally give a person who has got a necessary use for his car more petrol than a person who uses his car merely for pleasure. Then the hon. Member (Mr. Joynson-Hicks) asked whether the purpose of this tax is to put an end to the private use of motor cars or whether it is to raise money. Those two alternatives are not necessarily exclusive. The unnecessary use of a motor car is injurious to the State, but the payment of money is beneficial to the State, and it may be that the degree of unnecessary use is small while the degree of payment of money is high, and the State on the balance may get more advantage from the payment of the money than disadvantage from the use of the motor car. We have, therefore, endeavoured to put on the use of a motor car a financial penalty which will make up to the State for the injury which the State might suffer by what I might call the unnecessary use of the car. It cannot be said that the tax is purely for revenue, and it cannot be said that it is purely to suppress motor cars. It is something of both. With regard to the relief from this tax of cars used for purposes such as the work of the Red Cross Society, I am afraid we shall have to adhere to the rule that no relief of any kind can be considered unless the car is exclusively used for Government purposes or for State purposes of that kind. We cannot allow every person to assess himself. The tax will come into operation, I assume, when the census is taken, but the Petrol Committee cannot act until they know what the facts of the case are.

    May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider one case which may possibly arise? In the case of doctors, suppose the supply which they are authorised to purchase is exceeded, would it not be possible to issue a licence under which, in the case of special exigencies and for the public good, that supply might be in certain cases increased? I know that this difficulty has arisen not from any limitation upon the purchase, but because the petrol was not obtainable, and in the last period before it was obtained medical attendance has absolutely been stopped in some country districts. I have had reports from medical officers repeatedly that they could not obtain it. It would be still harder if, even when the supply is forthcoming, they are told, "No, however urgent the case is, however necessary your attendance at a great distance, you cannot purchase this because you have already had your whole supply for a month." Would it not be possible to give a special permit which might be used only by a professional medical man for purposes of public interest?

    The hon. Gentleman's observations are very much in point, but I think the matter will have to be considered by the Petrol Committee of the Board of Trade. I think it ought to be brought home to their minds.

    Question put, and agreed to.

    I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (1), to add the following paragraph:—

    (c) Ministers of religion, farmers residing at a distance from a station, and other persons who under special circumstances to be defined by Regulations require motor spirit for a motor car or motor cycle used for purposes defined by such Regulations to be such as to bring them within this Sub-section, may be authorised by such Regulations to claim and may be allowed relief from a portion (not exceeding one-half) of the amount of duty payable under this Section in respect of such amount of the motor spirit as shall be specified in the licence to be allocated to that particular purpose."

    I have no intention of going behind what was said yesterday in connection with the Motor Licence Duty. I perfectly recognise the unwisdom of attempting to exempt classes of men, because you do not know how far you might go, but it occurred to me that there are undoubted cases which might be met in another way without any objection of that sort. I notice that already in the next Clause which the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes there is evidence that they do anticipate that a special purpose may be indicated on the licence, and it does not seem to me to be impracticable, and seems to be a thing which would remove a grievance which, in the case of ministers of religion, might very well be met by putting on the face of the licence that a certain amount of the spirit was allocated to a specific purpose and a kind of use which was shown to be of national importance, and that for that amount, and that amount only, he might be relieved. I suggest only partial relief, and I should leave it to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to put in what variation he likes as to the amount. But I ask him to take this opportunity of having a Clause which will give some elasticity so that relief can be given to certain people. Of those people, I think ministers of religion stand first. Their case was fully gone into. It has come within my notice that during the War very many ministers are taking the work of others in parishes at a considerable distance from their residence. They chiefly use motor cycles. They are not people who own motor cars of their own. I have had many representations made to me of the hardship the Motor Duty would be to them, but in regard to the Spirit Duty, I think relief might be given in this way. Another class is that of farmers specially circumstanced in this way, that their horses have been commandeered and they have bought up cheap or second-hand motor cars to tide them over the difficulty. The paragraph as I have framed it would enable that matter to be met. The people who grant the licences will very easily be able to deal with any specific ease. If a minister comes and says, "I have to go once or twice a week to-such a district, and I want to have enough spirit for that purpose at half-price," they could easily verify whether that is reasonable or not, and if only that much is allowed to him no harm would be done. Take, again, the case of the farmer. If they know he is a long way from a station, and has to go into market twice a week, it will be very easy to specify quite, a reasonable amount on which he might have relief from the Motor Duty. There are other cases which may be dealt with if they turn out to be of the same nature. Of course, the whole subject may be defined and limited by Regulations. I do ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can see his way to adopt some Amendment of the kind I have moved. I apprehend that it would be practically easy to do it, and it could be done justly without running any risk of the Treasury losing any substantial amount of money. Subsection (4) of the next Clause which is to-be moved by the Chancellor of the Exchequer provides that a person shall not use motor spirit with which he is authorised to be supplied for any special purpose by his licence for any other purpose. If he abuses or attempts to abuse any such concession he will be liable to a heavy penalty under the Clause. I am not wedded to the particular words of my Amendment. I have tried to make the Amendment general, and, I think, that a reasonable concession made on these lines would be much appreciated. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer cannot accept my Amendment as it stands, I would ask him to consider whether he could not, by the drafting of other words, meet a really deserving object.

    The arguments which my hon. and learned Friend has addressed to the Committee are very similar in purpose to the arguments which were addressed to the Committee on another Clause last night. I have very little to add in regard to the cases of ministers of religion. I hope the Committee will realise that we are discussing this Clause in the middle of a national emergency. There is a great shortage of petrol in this country, and if my hon. and learned Friend had seen the figures which I have seen on this subject he would realise how important it is not to stop the consumption of petrol, but to limit it as far as possible. Immediately one listens to arguments which leads one to sympathise with hard cases, one gets upon the slope of concession, on which there is no stopping. I would draw my hon. and learned Friend's attention to his own Sub-clause, which is drawn in such a way that it contemplates an absolutely indefinite extension to any other person under special circumstances. Where are the Committee or the Board of Trade or the Treasury going to stop in giving exemption under a Clause of that kind? When you come to consider particular cases, the hon. and learned Gentleman has suggested that the portion of petrol issued to a particular person that has been used for a particular purpose may be exempted from a portion of the taxation. Imagine the case of a farmer filling the petrol tank on the back of his car and going into the market of a particular town, and then going off to lunch with a friend, a mile or a mile and a half distant from the market town. How is he to tell which part of the petrol in his tank is used for going to market, and how much is used for going to lunch?

    I am not suggesting that anybody would willingly deceive the State, particularly if they were subject to a penalty, as they are subject to a penalty under this Clause, but I am suggesting that quite innocently they might do that, and that you could not work such a Clause. When you come to the case of farmers who live far from a railway station, I would point out that, in the first place, this particular moment is not the moment to suggest to the House of Commons particular exemptions and concessions to farmers, who are, on the whole, very prosperous at the moment. Secondly, I would point out that when you rent a farm you have to pay rent according to the facilities for marketing your produce. The further from a railway station your farm is, presumably, other things being equal, the lower the rent. That is a fact which has to be borne in mind. I do submit that when you look at the proposed concession in its individual application, it is not of particular advantage, and when you consider the concession at large it does away with the whole reason for imposing the tax at all, and on these grounds we cannot accept the Amendment.

    I think my right hon. Friend has been a little hard upon the farmer. When he says that farmers who live at a very considerable distance from the station have taken their farms at a lower rent, I agree that probably that is the case, but he must recollect that at this time of national emergency the farmers have had their horses taken from them by the military, and they are unable to get from their farms to the station. That is a reason which, I think, should induce the right hon. Gentleman to accept the elasticity contained in my hon. and learned Friend's Amendment. He can adopt his own regulations. As my hon. Friend says, you do not lay down a hard and fast line. I may not speak generally of ministers of religion in Devonshire, because they have not such long distances to travel, but I do know in that county and in other counties where farmers live ten or twelve miles from a station, and it is very hard upon them that after they have had their horses commandeered, they should now have to pay an extra Petrol Tax in order to use the small cars which they have to use, and which they have been obliged to buy for the purposes of their business because their horses have been taken. I would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Financial Secretary whether they cannot accept some form of elasticity in regard to this matter, instead of laying down a hard and fast rule. You give a concession of one-half to the doctors, and one-half to the veterinary surgeons, and surely you can give it to men who have been absolutely damaged by the State taking away their means of carrying their produce to market. My right hon. Friend (Mr. Lough) reminds me that trade cars are exempted. If trade cars are exempted, why should not an agriculturist who is using his car specially for his trade, and for his trade only, not have an exemption?

    I assume that if a business man uses his car for trade he is exempt. I have no sympathy whatever with joy-rides. I have no sympathy with the use of cars and the utilising of petrol at the present time for pleasure rides, but I do ask that agriculturists should not be placed in a worse position than a trader, more particularly when his means of taking his produce from his farm to the market have been taken from him by the Government. What objection can there be to allowing regulations to be made to give some form of elasticity so that relief may be given in deserving cases? I hope that the Treasury will relent in regard to this very important matter.

    I should like to speak a few words on behalf of a very small class who are affected by this tax. I refer to the surveyors of local authorities, who as a condition of their engagement have undertaken to keep a motor car. These men are to a large extent in receipt of small salaries, and they have been hard hit by the increase in the cost of living, like everybody else. They are also hard hit by the increase in the Income Tax, and now they have this extra tax put upon them under conditions that they cannot avoid, especially at this time when they have the roads to survey, and they are expected to visit them, when labour is short, and very often unskilled. I do appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to consider the case of these men for relief in regard to this burden, which is a burden we never expected to have to bear when they undertook to keep a motor car.

    There are some ministers of religion in very large country parishes who have to use their motor ears largely in professional work. In regard to farmers, there are men who use their vehicles chiefly in the conduct of their trade, but not exclusively. For instance, they may take their family to church, and that would debar them from the relief which is given to trade cars. We have been informed that trade and commercial cars are exempt from this increased tax. Here we have a kind of car which is used as to nine-tenths of the oases for trade, but because it is used now and then for a joy ride, as my right hon. Friend (Mr. Lambert) describes it, the owners are excluded from the concession given to cars used exclusively for trade. From the point of view of equity, and that is all we ask for, there should be in the regulations provision whereby these-exceptional cases may be dealt with by the Petrol Committee. It is not a big concession. These people do not want to get out of paying their fair share towards the cost of the War. They are paying heavily in Income Tax, and in the increased cost of living, and while they do not wish to shirk their duty, they do desire that in regard to these trade cars, by means of which they are doing their best to keep up trade which is absolutely essential for the cost of the War, they should receive some consideration, because this tax means a handicap upon their trade. All we ask is that cases should be dealt with on their merits, and I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who has shown a desire to deal fairly with all cases, will consider this one favourably.

    Almost every motor car in the country is used at some time or other for the purpose of the owner's business. How are you going to distinguish between the use of a motor car by a banker, which takes the banker to the station in order to bring him to his office in London, and the use of a motor car by a farmer which takes the farmer to the station in order that he may conduct his business? The sole dividing line must be as to whether the car is exclusively used for trade or not. The moment the owner of the car is allowed to judge for himself how much he may use the car for his own pleasure purposes, so that he may be free from certain taxation, if he uses it in part only for his pleasure and in part for business, we get on a slippery slope which leads to destruction. You must have a fixed line. If a farmer uses his car exclusively for taking his goods to market it is a market car—it is a trade car.

    That is quite clear. Assuming that a farmer conveys his produce by motor wagon, the agricultural produce would come under the definition of trade?

    Certainly. I have no hesitation in giving a straight answer on that point. If the car is exclusively used for business, it is exempt.

    Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the word "agriculturist" is used in the Act itself, "trade or agriculturist purpose "?

    I am much obliged to the hon. Member for reminding me, and that strengthens my point. It is quite clear that the Committee will be well advised not to give any exemption and concessions except to those which are exclusively used for trade.

    I know a case of a country parson with a very large parish who has got a motor cycle which is never used except by himself for the sole purpose of administering his parish. Would he get an exemption?

    No. This man would not enter into a bond or undertaking that if there was a labourer whom he wished to see he would not go a mile on the motor cycle to see that labourer.

    As it is obvious that the 'Government will not accept the Amendment, I am perfectly willing to withdraw it. Reference has been made to the point that you would not know whether the owners of these cars might use them for some purpose of pleasure or for something irregular; but this really does not arise, because the point of the thing was that it would be known in the locality to what extent the vehicle would reasonably be required for he purposes of trade or profession and duty would be allowed only on that. I trust that the Treasury may reconsider the matter from this point of view, in order to meet at least the cases of ministers of religion and other very hard cases.

    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

    I beg to move to add to Sub-Section (1) the following paragraph:

    "(c) Allowance shall be made in any subsequent licence for any spirit not used before the date on which any licence runs out, and if the spirit is not required the amount paid for duty shall be refunded."
    The object of this Amendment is to cover the promise that was made yesterday. I submit the Clause does not do this clearly. It is not clearly stated in the Clause that where duty has been paid on a licence, and the petrol is not used, it shall be allowed for in any subsequent licence or the money shall be refunded. An attempt is made to do it, but it is not properly done in the Clause. As this is a new form of duty altogether I do not think it would have been so readily accepted yesterday but for the promise of my right hon. Friend that the point would be covered. The first Sub-section imposes the duty and then there j is a provision for duty to be allowed in certain conditions. I submit that that is the place where this proviso should be put in. It is not done there. An attempt is made to do it in the second part of Sub-Section (2) and the word "may" is used instead of "shall." I admit that that is a small point, but the Sub-Section refers to the surrender of a licence. A licence may not be surrendered; there may be no intention of surrendering it, and the words which I suggest should be added, or in some other way it should be made perfectly clear that as regards the balance under a licence on any amount not used tile duty should be refunded. The Chancellor ought to remember that this is different from all other duties, which are paid when the thing is actually consumed. He is now charging a heavy duty on something before it is consumed.

    I have no doubt that my right hon. Friend's ingenuity will find Amendments to any Clause, and Amendments for which he could advance very plausible arguments, but we have already provided in the Clause for the very thing for which he asks us to provide. It is true that we have not provided for it as specifically as he wishes. The reason is quite obvious. We do not at present know what the nature of these licences is going to be, and for obvious reasons. While we do know what the supply of petrol is likely to be and what our estimated shortage is going to be, we do not know, until we have got the census return, what the demand is going to be. We cannot tell, therefore, in relation to demand and supply, whether we shall have to issue licences for a short period or for a long period, again according to the prospects of demand and supply. Therefore, we say, Regulations may provide for the surrender of any licence under this Section authorising the supply of motor spirit, and for any consequent repayment of Motor Duty; and on behalf of the Treasury we make a public statement that we will repay duty in respect of any petrol which has not been used for which a licence has been issued. This Clause is taking the place of the Clause which authorised additional Licence Duty which has been paid in toto,whether the petrol was used or not, and for which there would be no refund. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to accept the Clause as it stands.

    My right hon. Friend has said that he will see that provision is made in some form or other to deal with this point.

    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

    Clause added to the Bill.

    New Clause—(Supplemental Provisions As To Motor Spirit Licence Duty)

    (1) A person shall not obtain or attempt to obtain a supply of motor spirit unless he is the holder of a licence for the time being in force under this Section, or in excess of the amount with which he is authorised to be supplied by the licence.

    (2) A person shall not supply motor spirit to a person unless he is the holder of a licence for the time being in force under this Section, or in excess of the amount authorised to be supplied by the licence.

    (3) A person supplying motor spirit shall, in such manner as may be directed by Regulations made under the preceding Section of this Act, enter on the licence of the person supplied the name and address of the supplier, the amount supplied, and the date on which it was supplied.

    (4) A person shall not use motor spirit with which he is authorised to be supplied for any special purpose by his licence for any other purpose.

    (5) If any person acts in contravention of or fails to comply with any provision of this Section or makes any entry on a licence which is false in any material particular or makes any statement winch is false in any material particular for the purpose of obtaining a licence he shall be liable to an Excise penalty of one hundred pounds.—[ Mr. McKenna.]

    Clause brought up, and read the first time.

    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."

    This is a penal Clause, and there are some points as to which I should like to be clear. The first is, how far there will be any liability on the holder of a licence for anything which his servant or chauffeur may do with re- gard to obtaining petrol. Most people will leave such matters as the obtaining and management of petrol to their chauffeur. The next question is as to the use of the word "knowingly." I think that this word should be inserted throughout the whole of this Clause. A new form of penalty is being created. A person shall not obtain a supply of motor spirit, a person shall not supply motor spirit, and so on. The word "knowingly" should be inserted in these cases. The small petrol dealer might be very seriously hit under this Clause by the large penalty of £100 provided later on, if he by his servant supplies petrol to a chauffeur who had either a wrong licence or a licence with a large number of entries on it, making it impossible for a dealer to find out whether the full amount of petrol has been supplied on it. The penalty for these offences, which are not very criminal matters, but merely contraventions of Regulations, is to be an Excise penalty of £100. The right hon. Gentleman knows that we have discussed the question of these Excise penalties before now, and I hope that he will forgive me for saying that that is a monstrous penalty. As I understand, an Excise penalty means that the Board of Customs can themselves, without the order of any Court of Justice, inflict the penalty of £100 on any man where they have some kind of evidence to satisfy them that he is guilty of one of these offences. I am proposing to suggest an Amendment to eliminate the Excise penalty. I think that an ordinary fine not exceeding 40s., or even £10 if the right hon. Gentleman so desired, would be sufficient. Here is a new law with a new series of Regulations and a new series of semi-crimes which are invented, and necessarily invented, by the action of the Government, and to leave every owner of a motor car exposed to the risk of being fined by a Customs decision to the amount of £100 without going to a Court of Justice is monstrous. The proper course would be to alter the fine to something like 40s. or £10, and let a man at least be brought before a magistrate and let the offence be proved before a fine is inflicted.

    Surely the hon. Gentleman is wrong when he says that an Excise penalty is a penalty which the Board of Customs can inflict, and that a person so fined has no remedy. If he does not choose to pay the fine, then the fine cannot be collected except the man is convicted by a Court, and then the Court has to deal with it. I do know this, that very many people who infringe these various financial enactments prefer very much to deal with the Commissioners of Customs 'and Excise than to be taken before a Police Court magistrate, and I am not at all sure that there is any real weight in the point raised by the hon. Gentleman. On the other point with regard to the word "knowingly," if it is necessary in every case for the authorities to prove guilty knowledge on the part of the person who supplies the petrol, then we might as well leave the penalties out altogether, because the thing would become practically impossible. To have provision made that it was open to the person to prove that he had taken every precaution, or that that might be taken into consideration, is one thing, but to throw the onus on the authority of proving that the person did take the precaution which he ought to have taken and in spite of those precautions did knowingly commit the offence, is quite a useless provision to have in an Act of Parliament.

    That it is quite unnecessary for me to pursue it further. It simply shifts the onus of proof. It is quite clear that if the person committed the offence unknowingly he could not be convicted, but he would have to prove this. As my hon. Friend says, to insert the word "knowingly" would render the Clause absolutely ineffective.

    I take it that the penalty provided for in the Clause does not refer to the Army and Navy, and that an officer in either Service, or a soldier or a sailor, if he is driving his car, is exempt from this penalty. Supposing an officer of the Army or of the Navy, or a soldier or sailor, when driving a car, suddenly runs short of petrol, and he seeks a further supply, does he get exemption? He must get the petrol if he is to execute his duty.

    Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman speaking of an officer who is driving in his private car for his own private purposes, or an officer driving a military car?

    The officer may be driving a military car, or his own car, with the sanction of the military authorities, and what is he to do if he gets hung up for want of petrol, as occurred to me a month ago, when I had to attend a court-martial. I used my own car, and the petrol ran short. I had to get a further supply, because I had important business before me. As I understand these two Clauses, I should not have been able to do that; I should not have been able to get any more petrol, unless I met a friend, which it is a thousand to one I should not have done; but, if I am an officer in the Army, or a soldier or a sailor, I take it that if I got hung up for want of petrol I could go to the nearest purveyor of petrol to get a fresh supply.

    If the naval or military officer, or anybody else, is driving his own car for his own purpose, whether that purpose happens to be a military or a naval purpose he will be bound by the Regulation. If my hon and gallant Friend desired to attend a court-martial he should have found out that he had enough petrol, and if he had not enough then to get enough.

    Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that if I had not got to the court-martial the whole of the proceedings would have been hung up?

    Question put, and agreed to.

    Clause read a second time.

    I beg to move, in Subsection (2), after the word "not" ["shall not supply"], to insert the word "knowingly."

    I think, in regard to what was said by the hon. Member behind me, that some Amendment of that sort is needed, and we should not allow ourselves to be carried away by what has been said by the hon. Member for Stepney (Mr. Glyn-Jones), who intervened on another Amendment.

    I think "knowingly" is quite commonly used in Acts of Parliament, and its introduction, in this instance, would not weaken the Clause at all, either in regard to the man who sells the petrol or the man who buys it. The term "knowingly" does exist in many Acts of Parliament, and I do think it might be admitted here.

    I thought there was something in the Amendment which I suggested, but, after hearing the right hon. Gentleman, I think so no longer.

    I would point out that what is wanted is that the person buying or selling petrol should take all proper precautions.

    Amendment negatived.

    I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (5) to leave out the words "an Excise penalty of one hundred pounds," and to insert instead thereof the words "a fine not exceeding ten pounds."

    I think the right hon. Gentleman will see that for these trifling enactments and calculations there should not be a penalty that possibly might amount to £100.

    I agree that it is the maximum, but, after all, the Customs authorities, if the person who commits the offence does not pay, can bring him before the Court. But in nine cases out of ten the Customs would have the right to impose a fine of 40s., £5, or £10. The bulk of the people who would be concerned are not like shopkeepers or chemists, or so forth, who are familiar with Customs matters; in this instance we are dealing with men who are not accustomed to Excise penalties, and have never heard of them before. In these crcumstances I suggest that the amount of the penalty should certainly be reduced, and if possible put in the form of a fine.

    I take it that the petrol cards which are to be used will contain the entries of petrol which has been obtained, and the vendor will see from those entries what balance of petrol is due to the intending purchaser. If he has petrol due to him he will be all right, but, if he has not, he will be hung up on the road. Therefore it is important that adequate precautions should be taken not to supply petrol unless petrol is seen by the card to be due, and there should be a penalty for supplying petrol in such circumstances, just as the Germans impose a penalty on the vendor who supplies meat or bread to a person who has already received his full quantity. But I do think that the fine proposed by my hon. Friend below me is enough to meet the case.

    This maximum penalty will not be enforced except where a very serious offence is committed. It would be very unfair if we could not enforce the maximum penalty in the case of persons taking more than their share of petrol, and thus depriving others of the share to which they are entitled, because there is not an unlimited supply to dole out, but a very limited supply, and I think that any serious offence against this Clause ought to be seriously punished. If it were some trivial offence for which a heavy penalty was imposed, the matter could come before the Court, and a fine of 40s., £5, or £10 would be imposed in the ordinary way. The maximum penalty provides power, which we ought to have, to stop persons getting an undue share of petrol to the deprivation of others.

    Amendment negatived.

    Clause ordered to be added to the Bill.

    New Clause—(Continuance Of Customs Duties Imposed Under The Finance (No 2) Act,1915)

    The following duties of Customs, imposed by Part I. of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915, shall continue to be charged, levied, and, paid until the first day of August, nineteen hundred and seventeen, that is to say:—

    Duty.Section of Act.
    Increased Duty on Tea1
    Additional Duties on Dried Fruit8
    Additional Duties on Tobacco9(1)
    Additional Duty on Motor Spirit10(1)
    New Import Duties12

    —[ Mr. McKenna.]

    Clause brought up, and read the first time.

    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."

    I wish to ask you, Sir, on a point of Order, whether this Clause is in proper form. I called attention to the matter on the Second Beading, and I do not think the question was decided by Mr. Speaker yesterday. I submit that we are not bound in the Clause of the Bill to follow the form adopted in the Resolution, which is only an empowering Resolution, and the Clause in the Bill ought to be in the proper and usual form settled by precedent in this House. The answer of Mr. Speaker, yesterday, was that the objection to the form of the Clause should have been raised in Committee. Now that the Clause is before us, I desire to ask, Sir, whether you think these Clauses are in the usual form sanctioned by long Parliamentary usage. We are accustomed to seeing in the Clause what the actual duty is, whether it is the Tea Duty, the Tobacco Duty, or other duty, the duties being actually set out in the Clause. But this Clause says, "the following duties," and when one looks one sees no duties mentioned; it is legislation by reference carried to an extreme. I ask you, Sir, whether the Clause is in order, and whether it should not be brought up in accordance with precedents?

    The Resolution in Committee of Ways and Means, on which this Clause is founded, was submitted to me by the Government before it was brought before the Committee, and I then satisfied myself that it was in a form according to precedents. I therefore put it to the Committee, and the right hon. Gentleman, who has a critical eye, did not put to me a point of Order. I think the precedents show that this form of Clause is not new. If it had been proposed in the originating Resolution in the Committee of Ways and Means to bring in new taxes of widely different character in a single Resolution, I should have deemed it my duty to refuse; but here it is the case of a renewal of duties already existing, and there are two distinct precedents for the present procedure. Therefore, I see no I reason for departing from the course I have taken.

    Is not this Clause of great advantage to traders? I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that he was very anxious to extend the duties upon tea and sugar and other simple articles of food until next year, and not to bring in another Budget. Now this Clause simply declares these duties, which are enumerated as we all know in a former Act and do exist and will continue to exist until the 1st August, 1917. I should have thought that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Islington (Mr. Lough) would have been in favour of that, because he objected to these Budgets being brought in so often; I should have thought that he would be delighted with this proposal. If he were to insist that we were to have here the whole of these Sections in the former Act of Parliament it would simply be duplicating work.

    I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer will exclaim after the speech of the hon. Gentleman, "Save me from my friends!"

    5.0 P.M.

    In regard to the procedure I desire to make a few observations. My hon. Friend has really misunderstood the point of my objection to this Clause. I do take the most serious objection to it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer knows that I do not object in any way this year to the renewal of any of these duties, and I am indebted to him for the way he has done it, thus saving the country from another Budget this year. I am entirely in favour of that course. That ought not to blind the eyes of the Committee to an innovation which might be followed hereafter to the great prejudice of the proceedings of Parliament. My hon. Friend spoke as if everybody knew what the duties are. I doubt if he knows all the duties.

    I think I could puzzle the hon. Member about tobacco, for instance. [An HON. MEMBER: "The Chancellor knows them!"] The Chancellor knows everything connected with these fiscal matters.

    I am thinking of the unhappy consumer, on whose back these burdens will fall, and I think it should be made clear and plain to those consumers as to the amount of any duty or tax they have to pay. This procedure conceals the amount of the tax and wraps up a number of taxes together. For instance, there are new Import Duties, but we do not know upon what articles they are, or the amount. We have not been able to ask questions or even to propose to amend the proposals in the way in which many Members might be inclined to do. On this occasion we do not suffer much by the innovation, I admit, because, as everybody knows, we are in the stress of a great war, and we are all anxious to help in getting the money.

    I really ought to intervene to tell the right hon. Gentleman that I did satisfy myself carefully that it would be open to any hon. Member who wished to do so to move an Amendment on any specific point. I should not allow a proposal from the Government with regard to taxation to pass my eye in a way which would debar Members, if they chose, from moving Amendments.

    Is it not a great deal more difficult by this procedure? I hope I am not out of order in what I am saying.

    No; but I thought it was desirable in the interests of the Committee that my view should be on record.

    I will go the length of saying that very well instructed lawyers, some of whom I see about me, would not have been able to devise how Amendments might have been proposed. My objection is far wider than that. I say that these taxes ought to be made so simple that the wayfaring man, though a fool, could not err with regard to them. Everybody should be made to realise what it was he was paying as extra taxation, and thus the horrors of war would be very usefully brought home to him. All that information is concealed, and very closely concealed, in this Clause. I spoke to one of my right hon. Friends who asked me what is the additional duty. I said there is no additional duty now. We used the words "additional duty" last September, and because we used those words then we repeat them to-day. I do think a protest ought to be made against this procedure, and that it would be in the interests of the country for other hon. Members to support that protest, and to ask that we should follow our old custom by which we would know in the Clause the nature of every tax which was being imposed. I agree with the course that the Chancellor has adopted in avoiding another Budget, and I think that that is a course of which hon, Members generally approve.

    I desire to put a question. When this Bill was introduced these Clauses of course were not down, as it was understood to be the intention of the Government to deal with these matters in another Finance Bill, which was to come on some time later in the Session. I have no objection at all to these matters being dealt with now, but in the new Finance Bill, which these Clauses obviate, it was contemplated that the Chancellor would consider the question of other taxes. When he was dealing with the tax on table waters, the Financial Secretary met a deputation of the trade and arrived at a decision in which the trade concurred, on the understanding that if the taxation, or the method of collection, which the Financial Secretary admitted was quite experimental, proved not to be satisfactory, that in the new Finance Bill he would put the matter right. Now that a new Finance Bill is obviated, I would ask the Chancellor to tell me what about that offer. If the Government are satisfied that the tax and its methods of collection is not satisfactory, will they, now that there is not to-be a new Finance Bill, alter the conditions by some Bill ad hoc? I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will agree that in the event of such a decision it would be unfair to deprive those concerned of the opportunity of securing alteration.

    It is only a question of dates. It was originally intended to introduce a third Finance Bill, as my right hon. Friend (Mr. Lough) knows. He strongly objected to such a proposal and desired us to introduce these Clauses in this Bill to avoid a third Finance Bill. We thought we would have been able to get this Bill at an earlier stage, which would have left ample time to introduce a third Finance Bill-before the end of July. We now find that the Committee and Report stages of this Bill will take us so far into July that it is not worth while to introduce a third Bill, and we will do in this Bill all that we promised to do in the third Bill. My hon. Friend will have a full opportunity on the Report stage to introduce any Amending Clause which he thinks desirable in the interests of the trade to which he has referred.

    I think if the right hon. Gentleman consults his advisers, they will tell him that between now and the Report stage of this Bill they would not be ready to deal with these matters; and the Financial Secretary expressly stated that it would be impossible for him to deal with them in this Bill. What I am asking is this: If at the time when he would have introduced a third Finance Bill he is then satisfied that some change needs to be made in regard to this tax, he will deal with it at that time by some measure ad hoc. It would be quite unfair to have arranged with the trade that in a proposed Finance Bill he would deal with difficulties if he were satisfied that they existed and that the trade at that time, if he were so satisfied, should be deprived of the benefit of the change. The Chancellor would be the judge as to whether any measure ad hoc was necessary. I think a pledge was given on this subject, and I am sure if the Chancellor looks into it between now and Report he will be prepared to carry it out.

    Any pledge will be fulfilled up to the hilt. I do not know anything of any pledge. The hon. Gentleman says it was given by the Financial Secretary. Any pledge given by him will be kept.

    That pledge cannot be as it was to deal with the matter, if necessary, in the third Finance Bill, but these Clauses have been introduced to avoid the necessity for that Bill.

    I would like to support the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lough) in what he has said about the procedure. I think that this mode of procedure of introducing a Clause with so much reference to something in other Acts has seldom been used in taxation matter. The precedents for this procedure are, I think, few, and it is a procedure which strikes me as very inconvenient for Members of the House who might wish to move Amendments. I think those who pay duty on tea, tobacco, and other articles have the right to know exactly what it is they are paying. It may, of course, be said that this is done in stress of war, and that it is difficult to deal with these questions specifically. I do not think, however, that that is sufficient excuse.

    Question put, and agreed to.

    Clause read a second time, and added to the Bill.

    New Clause—(Continuance Of Excise Duties Imposed Under The Finance (No 2) Act, 1915)

    The following Duties of Excise, imposed by Part I. of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915, shall continue to be charged, levied, and paid until the first day of August, nineteen hundred and seventeen, that is to say:—

    Duty.Section of Act.
    Additional Duties on Tobacco9(2)
    Additional Duty on Motor Spirit10(2)
    Additional Medicine Duties11

    —[ Mr. McKenna.]

    Clause brought up, and read the first time.

    Question, "That the Clause be read a second time," put, and agreed to.

    Clause read a second lime, and added to the Bill.

    New Clause—(Additional Income Tux On Securities Which The Treasury Are Willing To Purchase)

    In addition to any other Income Tax or Super-tax charged under this or any other Act, there shall, subject to the provisions of this Section, be charged, levied, and paid for the year beginning on the sixth day of April, nineteen hundred and sixteen, in respect of any part of the income of any person to which this Section applies an additional duty of Income Tax at the rate of two shillings for every pound of that part of the income.

    The income to which this Section applies is the income derived from securities which are for the time being included in the Treasury special list as defined by this Section, while those securities are so included; and the income shall, for the purposes of this Section, be deemed to be derived at the time when the interest or dividends payable in respect of the securities become payable.

    (2) The additional duty under this Section shall not be charged on any income derived before the first day of July, nineteen hundred and sixteen.

    (3) A person shall be entitled to relief from the additional duty imposed by this Section—

  • (a) in respect of income derived between the date of the publication of the Treasury special list and a date twenty-eight days thereafter if the securities are during that period offered to the Treasury and ultimately become at the absolute disposal of the Treasury; and
  • (b) in respect' of income derived from any securities included in the Treasury special list after the securities have been placed at the absolute disposal of the Treasury; and
  • (c) in respect of income derived from any such securities after a person has placed the securities conditionally at the disposal of the Treasury, if the securities ultimately become at the absolute disposal of the Treasury without unreasonable delay on the part of that person; and
  • (d) in respect of income derived from any such securities which ultimately become at the absolute disposal of the Treasury, if it is shown to the satisfaction of the Treasury that any delay in placing those securities at the disposal of the Treasury has arisen from circumstances beyond the control of the holders of the securities; and
  • (e) in respect of income derived from any such securities held, in any country outside the United Kingdom, by persons who are not domiciled in the United Kingdom, or by trustees who are prevented by the terms of their trust from placing the securities at the disposal of the Treasury, and are not entitled to the benefit of any indemnity conferred by Act of Parliament in respect of the contravention of those terms, if the securities were so held before the twenty-ninth day of May, nineteen hundred and sixteen; and
  • (f) in respect of income derived from any such securities which are deposited with persons outside the United Kingdom as a security for a loan from those persons, or have otherwise been made security for a loan from persons outside the United Kingdom, if they were so deposited or made security before the twenty-ninth day of May, nineteen hundred and sixteen, or after that date with the approval of the Treasury, and if the Treasury are satisfied that the securities cannot be released without impairing the security for the loan; and
  • (g) in respect of income derived from any such securities which are proved to the special Commissioners to be held by any company or persons concerned in trade or business in any country outside the United Kingdom as a condition (imposed in that country) of carrying on that trade or business.
  • The provisions of this Sub-section shall apply to an offer of securities for deposit in the same manner as they apply to an offer of securities for sale, and securities when accepted for deposit shall, while so deposited, for the purposes of this Subsection, be deemed to be at the absolute disposal of the Treasury.

    (4) The power under the Income Tax Acts to require a person to make returns for the purposes of those Acts shall, include power to require him to make such returns as appear to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue to be necessary for the purpose of ascertaining whether any of the income of that person (whether or not Income Tax thereon is chargeable by deduction) is income to which this Section applies, including such particulars as to that income as the Commissioners may require, and those Acts, including the provisions imposing penalties, shall apply accordingly.

    (5) Where any income to which this Section applies is derived from securities which are held on trust by more than one trustee the securities may be placed at the disposal of the Treasury if, where there are two trustees, one trustee and the persons entitled to the income of the securities, and, where there are more than two trustees, one-half or more of the trustees and the persons entitled to the income of the securities, are willing that the securities should be so placed at the disposal of the Treasury; and any action taken by such trustees or beneficiaries for the purpose of placing any such securities at the disposal of the Treasury shall, notwithstanding anything in the terms of the trust or any rule of law to the contrary, be as valid and effectual in all respects as though all the trustees had consented thereto and had joined therein.

    (6) A person shall not be entitled to any exemption, abatement, or relief under the Income Tax Acts (other than relief depending solely on residence or domicile) in respect of the additional Income Tax imposed by this Section, but in all other respects the provisions of the Income Tax Acts relating to persons who are to be chargeable with duty, assessments, and appeals against those assessments, and to the collection and recovery of duty, and to cases to be stated for the opinion of the High Court shall, so far as they are applicable, apply to the charge, assessment, collection, and recovery of duty under this Section:

    Provided that the Treasury may give directions that the additional duty imposed by this Section shall, instead of being charged by deduction, be charged up to the same amount by direct assessment for the period, and in the cases mentioned in those directions, and where any such directions are given, the Income Tax Acts shall have effect accordingly.

    (7) In this Section—

    the expression "securities" includes stocks, shares, and other securities; and

    the expression "The Treasury Special List" means any list published by the Treasury in the "Gazette," and for the time being in force, of securities which the Treasury are willing to purchase in connection with any arrangements for the regulation and maintenance of the foreign exchanges. — [ Mr. McKenna.]

    Clause brought up, and read the first time.

    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."

    I do not want to quarrel at all with the principle of this Clause. I quite realise the importance of it, and also the difficulty that the Chancellor has felt in applying that principle; but I would like to say a few words upon the method which, for the first time, is now before the House. If I understand the matter aright, the income from these securities by whomsover held will be taxed at the source, and that then individuals who have any reason which would justify them in escaping that taxation will have the right to recover from the Treasury under the provisions of this Clause. It many be necessary; in fact I do not know whether it is possible to find any other way by which the Chancellor of the Exchequer can be sure that under this Clause the holders of the various shares, which include American and all shares now, and other securities, can be brought to book. But of course it is a very drastic, and in some cases, I think, it will be a very harsh method of dealing with these people. For that reason I think we ought to be particularly careful that there is nothing put into this Bill which will bring about hard cases, what everybody will admit to be hard cases, which cannot be relieved by the Government Department, because they do not come within the four corners of the wording of this enactment. Of course, it is easy enough, it may be easy, to bring this into operation with people in the City, bankers and business men, who are fully cognisant of everything that is happening now and will happen in regard to these shares. But we ought to bear in mind that there are all over the country a very considerable number of holders of these securities, many persons who hold very small amounts, who will really never know what is the operation of this Act, and who will find for the first time the effect of it when the dividends are paid to them, and they find that one-tenth of the dividend is being deducted because they have not offered the shares in the way in which the Government proposed they should be compelled to offer them. They may be perfectly willing to do so. They may not have done so in ignorance, or they may not have acted in particular circumstances which rendered it difficult for them to offer these shares. What remedy will you give them should they wish to recover the money from the Treasury, provided always that they can show that they have a right to recover and that their right comes within the actual terms of the Clause which we have before us? It is always difficult to get money back from the Treasury, and I think it is extremely easy for the Treasury, if they wish, to prevent the return of this money to the holders to argue that the provisions of this Bill do not cover the particular case and that they are not entitled to repayment. It is difficult to understand precisely what is the meaning of this Clause. As I understand it, under (3) (a) a person who has been taxed and has paid this duty at the source will be able to recover under (a) provided that he can show that the income was derived between the date of the publication of the Treasury special list and a date twenty-eight days thereafter, if he has during that period offered to the Treasury the securities and the Treasury has accepted them, and they ultimately become at the absolute disposal of the Treasury.

    The next case provided for is that of income derived from these securities included in the Treasury special list later on, provided they come into the absolute disposal of the Treasury. And there is a further wider Section (c) providing that he can get it back if the aforesaid securities have been placed conditionally at the disposal of the Treasury and if the securities ultimately become at the absolute disposal of the Treasury without unreasonable delay on the part of that person—that is to say, that there has not been unreasonable delay provided always that they come into the possession of the Treasury. Under (d) there is also a provision that he may get this payment if he can show to the satisfaction of the Treasury that any delay in placing those securities at the disposal of the Treasury has arisen from circumstances beyond the control of the holder of securities. Here, again, that is only in the case where the securities ultimately become at the absolute disposal of the Treasury. These, I take it, are the four provisions which will enable a man to obtain repayment of this additional duty from the Treasury. I submit to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that these are not sufficiently wide; that they do not cover by any means the whole ground; and I cannot help thinking that if no wider words are put in than those that are there now we shall find that a good many people will have paid 2s. in the £ Income Tax and will not be able to recover it, although in all probability it would be reasonable that it should be repaid to them. I will give one or two cases. I understand that the Treasury up to the present have said that they will not accept securities from any holder of less value than £1,000 I would like to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what will happen in the case of any holder of those American securities of less value than £1,000? I want to know what will happen in regard to holders who have got securities of less amount, and who therefore do not offer them? In the wording of this Clause—I have read it very carefully—I think it is clear that they will have the Income Tax deducted at the source, and they will have great difficulty in recovering it, because I cannot see that there is anything in this Clause which would entitle the Treasury to pay back that money.

    They do not want to sell if they are perfectly willing to put them at the disposal of the Treasury. Surely it is not right, because you do not want them to be at your disposal when they are under that amount, to collect the taxes upon them. I should have thought that there ought to have been a provision here that if the Treasury do not take these securities for any reason at all, then that should be a justification for the repayment of the taxes. With regard to some other securities, I understand that there are securities on the present lists which the Treasury do not want to have at their disposal. What will happen to cases of that kind? I suppose the Chancellor of the Exchequer intends that the amount of the taxes paid on these securities will be repaid. But that does not appear in the wording of this Clause at all, and so far as I can understand it, the holder of every single security in that list will be obliged to have the tax deducted, and the fact that the Treasury does not make use of the securities will not entitle him to the return of the money. I put those cases, and if the Chancellor of the Exchequer can answer these questions satisfactorily, my objection to the Clause will fail. But my point is that it would be wise to put the drafting of this Clause into a wider form and allow a wider discretion to the Treasury in regard to the payment of these additional taxes. I take one more case—I dare say the Chancellor of the Exchequer will say it is covered—where securities are pledged, and where it is perhaps impossible or very difficult for the owners to place them at the disposal of the Treasury. We know there is a Clause which says that he may remit those taxes or repay the money where it is beyond the power of the owner to hand over the securities. But it may not be absolutely beyond the power of the owner to arrange with the mortgagees, yet it may be very difficult, and in such a case it would be perfectly reasonable for the Treasury to say, "We will not enforce this particular taxation." There, again, is a case in which I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that the wording of the Clause should be more generous and wider in its application, so that difficulties like that may be met properly. I have put down Amendments, which I propose to move and discuss later on, with the object of achieving this end. At the moment I wish to draw attention to the subject generally.

    The points which have been raised by my right hon. Friend are points which can be discussed on the Amendments themselves. I do not under- stand that he is taking objection to the principle of the Clause, and without going into detail on the Amendments which I understand he is going to move, I do not think I can answer the speech he has made.

    I think it is desirable that we should confine ourselves to the principle of the Clause, and that Members should wait until after it has been read a second time before going into those details. On a preceding Clause we had these discussions, and we had them all over again when we came to the Amendments.

    I want to raise a point in rather more general terms than those in which his points were raised by the right hon. Gentleman opposite. It seems to me that the real difficulty of the tax, as it is proposed in this Clause, is that it is a flat Clause applying equally to number of securities in which you give different options to the holders, and I do not see how you are going to apply it equally. In certain cases for a certain class of security you give an option to lend or sell to the Treasury. In other cases you give an option only to lend and not to sell, and again in other cases you give an option to sell and not to lend. That is the case of actual holders of these securities. I can give you the name of various categories of these securities, and I cannot see any provision in this Bill for differentiation in the form of the taxes, or the amount of the tax that is going to be imposed upon the holders of these securities. It seems to me that if you give a lesser option to the holder in some cases than to others it is your duty to graduate the amount of the tax to some extent. I do not see how it can be done, and therefore I do not propose to move any definite Amendment, but you must do something to meet this difficulty unless you are prepared to take the securities equally both for purchase and loan which I know for various reasons is most undesirable. As regards the whole idea of the tax, I do not desire to attack the principle of the tax at all, because I really fail to see how else the right hon. Gentleman could have done it provided he was determined to get hold of the securities which were toeing held back. This was a choice of evils, and no doubt it is a drastic expedient by the Government to get hold of securities of this nature. I think that in all probability he could not have done it better than by this sweeping course. I hope that the question of the taxes being equal will be considered in regard to the Treasury penalties. In regard to certain classes of bonds, it is very hard to force the owners to sell. Many of these bonds have not matured, and it is hard that these persons should be forced to sell and to give them no option, whereas in the case of other matured bonds they have the option to do either one thing or the other.

    I do not want to reply on the main question, but in order to save time, I think I ought to say that I think the hon. Member who spoke last does not quite appreciate the effect of this tax. The owner of a security is only liable for the tax if he refuses to sell or to deposit. If a man offers to lend to the Treasury securities which he will not sell to them, he is exempted by the provisions of the Clause from taxation.

    I am not sure that this is quite so clear as the Secretary to the Treasury has indicated. It is very important that we should know whether or not an offer to lend or to sell suffices. What we were given to understand was that as regards any security that the Government might pick, the owner should have an option either to lend or to sell. As has the hon. Member who spoke last, I have found, in communication with the authorities, that there are some securities which they will buy but will not borrow; there are others that they will borrow but will not buy. Therefore, they do not give you the option to sell or lend, and we ought to have that made quite clear; because that does mean, in the case of a security which they will buy but will not borrow, and the owner wishes to lend it, that they will make him sell it, or tax him if he does not sell it. That is not giving him an option to sell or lend as he wishes. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that that is the practice of the Department. Further, in regard to that, I think the lists should clearly show which are the securities which the Government will borrow and which are those which they will buy, or with which they will do either. The lists do not show that, and it places people in a difficulty. They should either have different type to indicate the difference in the lists, or lists showing the different securities. There is another point, and that is in regard to the notification to the public. The right hon. Gentleman must bear in mind that a large number of people holding these securities know extremely little as to what is going on here, and unless the notification is ample it "will be hard for them to be penalised if they do not happen to comply with the notice. The provision is that a notice should be published in the "Gazette." It might as well, so far as the public go, never be published at all. They never see the "Gazette," and they know nothing about it. Although I do not imagine for one moment that the Government mean to confine themselves to this, yet that is all that the Regulation requires. To publish it in the "Gazette" alone—well, you might as well publish it in the moon! Therefore the notification ought to be most ample, and one day's notification in the papers, in my judgment, is not sufficient for people who are spread all over the country. I think, too, there ought to be continuously published up-to-date and complete lists. At present a person who sees that his security is not in the lists may be unaware of the fact that after all that security appears in a subsequent list. So I say that all these lists ought to be more completely up to date. We ought to have some very clear information on these points—first, as to the borrowing and the buying. I think that persons should be free of the tax if they are willing to either lend or sell a security, whether the Government takes it then or not. The Government has had the offer.

    There is a great deal in what the right hon. Gentleman opposite has just said, but I propose to deal with it a little later. I should like to give my reason why I think this tax is wrong in principle and will not work well, and also why it may cause not only loss to a considerable number of people, but also a considerable loss to the Government. On the Report stage of the Resolution a question was asked whether those of us who opposed this proposal were aware that this country was at war. It was stated that because the country was at war it was very necessary that something of this sort should be done. May I point out to the Committee that this Clause makes no difference whatever to the War. Whether it is passed or is not passed makes no difference. The War will go on just the same. The object of the Clause is to regulate the American exchanges, and nothing else. Though that may be, and is, a good thing to do, it is absurd to say that the regulation of the American exchanges is going to affect the War. It will not touch it in any way at all. What are the reasons that it is proposed to regulate the American exchanges? There are, so far as I know, two reasons, and only two reasons. The one is in order that, the Government may be able to provide at a lower price certain articles which they feel it necessary to buy—and the saving in that direction has been very seriously exaggerated. On the Committee stage of the Resolution I looked up what the saving was, and I stated it to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I forget for the moment the exact figure. Of course, the regulation of the exchange could be dealt with in another manner, either by buying smaller purchases of articles from America or by a larger exportation of our commerce. It is necessary—as an economist I feel that it is—to buy as cheaply as we can. It is news to me, however, that the Government, as a rule, are very much concerned in saving money, or in pursuing any economy or cheapness, but perhaps they have turned over a new leaf and are really anxious to save, and I do not want to put any impediment in their way. But I say, in saving money for the benefit of the nation, any loss incurred, in order to effect that very desirable object, should be borne by the whole nation and not by a small portion of it.

    The other reason is to prevent gold from leaving this country. That, also, is an excellent reason, and one which I should be most glad to support. There again, however, I do not see why to preserve the gold in this country, which is a national object, the burden should be borne by a small portion of the community. It is perfectly well known that the gold is preserved in Germany and France much better than we shall preserve the gold by the proposed means. Neither in France or Germany has any resolution of this sort been imposed. It would not be in order to go into the steps which the Bank of France and the Bank of Germany have taken to preserve their gold, but they are well known to any man who has any knowledge of the City. There is no reason why we, in a state of war, should not use some similar steps. Then comes the next question whether, supposing it necessary to have these securities, the Government are doing it in the best way. I said at the beginning that I did not think the Government were proposing the best way I still adhere to that opinion. I believe that the result of taking these securities in the way the Government are going to propose today will cause loss to a small section of the nation, and may cause a considerable loss to the Government themselves. What the Government really are going to do— because they are most desirious of buying and not borrowing—is to use the slang of the City, to buy a large bull of American securities at the top price. I do not think that this is a thing to be encouraged. This is a thing from which they will not emerge without loss. We have not been told by the Government how many of these American securities they have bought, or how many they have sold. Are they large holders of American securities which they have not been able to sell, except by making loss? If so, we should be given the information. Some of the securities are at a very high price, and there is no doubt—as I said on the last occasion I spoke on this subject—while a good many people have been able to sell at a good price, and realise a profit, there are others who, from a variety of reasons, have been unable to sell for profit, and who have sold at a loss. I think those people who have got securities that they sold at a profit are different people from those who have sold to the Government. Consequently the Government have had to buy their securities at a higher price.

    What have the Government done? They have made a good bargain, or they have not, by their transactions! If they have realised a profit, have they got out, or are they, to use a City phrase, "still in." If they are "still in," we must not forget that there is danger of war between the United States and Mexico. What is going to happen with the price of those securities which the Government still hold if there is a big war between the United States and Mexico, and a really considerable fall in these securities? I could give the policy which I have always advocated if necessary to do this at all. That policy is to borrow these securities. It seems to me that there is no question that that is the proper policy to pursue. May I point out to the Committee what would have resulted if the Government had confined their operations to borrowing securities. They would have got those securities, and they would have been free at once from any risk of loss through depreciation of these securities in America. They would have got them and have used them as collateral security, and they would then, when the War was finished, and the necessity for the use of these securities as collateral securities was at an end, have returned them to the holders, and that would have involved them in no loss.

    Why was that not done? It was not done for two reasons. I could never understand why. I may have misjudged, but there was, according to my view, a very extraordinary desire on the part of the Government not to borrow securities, but only to purchase them. There was also this difficulty, that the holders of securities did not care to lend them to the Government if there was any doubt about their receiving them back at the end of the time when the Government had finished with the use of them. But I believe that all people who hold securities of this sort would have been only too glad to assist the Government by lending them for any time within reason that the Government required, but they naturally demanded that when the Government had finished with them these securities should be returned. The Government refused to do that, because they said it might be necessary, in the case of certain securities, to have to sell them. My answer to that is this, "Very good, the holders, I am sure, will make not the slightest objection to the Government selling their securities, but they ask that the Government should replace them." It would be very unlikely that anything of that sort would occur. In the conversations I have had with the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Montagu) and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, they have agreed that that event is very improbable, but if that improbable event had happened, and it had occurred that the Government had to make a loss in replacing these securities, I sincerely believe that that loss would have been less than the loss they may incur by being now large holders of American securities, which they have not sold, and which they may be unable to sell in the future except at a considerable loss. At the same time, if my suggestion had been carried out, I believe that no harm and no injury would have been done to the class of people who, as far as I can see, there is no reason to pick out, to make a sacrifice of that which is in the interests of the whole nation. Further, there would have been no occasion to put on this tax, which I still say is a very-novel and very wrong method—that the Income Tax should be taken and used, not for the securing of revenue, but as a penalty, punishment, and threat to force certain people to do something which they do not want to do, and which the Government require them to do. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Pancras, I think, made some comments upon the question of small amounts. He said that there was nothing in this Clause which would enable the holder of small amounts, $5,000 or under, lending them to the Government. I do not see that there is anything in this Clause which says that, but I understood something would be put into the Clause. I had the privilege of meeting the Chairman of the Committee sitting at the National Debt Office, and he came and attended a meeting of the London Clearing Bankers, at which I was present. I understood from him that this was under the consideration of the Government, and that in all probability—of course, he could make no pledge—some method would be adopted to meet what is undoubtedly a serious blot upon the Clause. I cannot see that and thing of the sort has been done. As to the question of the Treasury special list, there is a definition in this Clause that it "means any list published by the Treasury in the "Gazette," and for the time being in force, of securities which the Treasury are willing to purchase in connection. With any arrangement for the regulation and maintenance of the foreign exchanges." Now there have been a very large number of lists published during the last few months. What list is it to be from which the twenty-eight days are to run? Ts it to be twenty-eight days from the time the first Resolution was passed, or the second Resolution, or from the time the Clause is added to the Bill, or when the Bill becomes law?

    Will the right hon. Baronet look at the words "between the date of the publication"?

    But when is the publication supposed to be? My point is that there have been so many publications that, unless a definite date is put into the Clause, nobody will know when the date of the publication is. I do not care what date it is, so long as it is put in and we know where we are. Sub-section (4) says that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue can ask people to make a return as to whether or not they have any of these securities. The dividends of practically all these securities are deducted at the source. There may be a few exceptions, though I do not think so, where the dividend is not deducted at the source.

    With those exceptions. I do not know how you are to send out to America.

    Shares on the American Register are sometimes paid by cheque from New York.

    So far as I know there are very few shares which are on the American Register in the hands of the actual holders. There may be a few isolated cases. I am not sure I am not speaking in the interests of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue themselves. They may have to ask any number of these people, "Have you, or have you not, got securities of this sort in your possession, and, if so, will you say what they are?" and this, that, and the other. Really, we have already enough forms to fill up, especially with regard to Income Tax, and I do not think we want to fill up any more unless it is absolutely necessary that it should be done. I think I may fairly say I was given an undertaking by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the Report stage of the Resolution that he would put some words in the Clause to meet this difficulty. A security is listed as being a security which the Treasury will buy. A person owns some of those securities. He is prepared to lend them to the Treasury, but he is not prepared to sell them. He goes to the National Debt office and offers to lend those securities to the Treasury. The Treasury say "No," and he will be liable for this tax, because those securities are in the list which the Treasury have given notice they are prepared to buy, although he has offered the securities to the Treasury, and the Treasury refuse to take them. The right hon. Gentleman definitely told me he would put soma words in to meet that case. I may be wrong, but I have read the Clause very carefully and I cannot find the words to meet the case.

    directed the right hon. Baronet's attention to certain words in the Clause.

    I do not think that the words "placed at the absolute disposal of the Treasury" are quite clear. That may be meant to cover it, but I do not think it does. It is really an important question which ought to be settled. I do not know whether it is any use appealing to the right hon. Gentleman; I am afraid it is not. The last time I said anything upon this question I asked the right hon. Gentleman if he would not wait a little, because plenty of securities were coming in. I am afraid it is no use asking him to do that again, but I do earnestly say that, in my belief, having had some experience of business in the City, this proposal is wrong, the method of carrying it out is wrong, and it will result not in a gain, but in a loss to the Treasury; whereas, if the suggestion I make is carried out, the reverse will be the case.

    The only objection to the method suggested by the right hon. Baronet is that a security which cannot be sold is no use as a collateral. No one will accept as collateral security a security which one cannot sell. Therefore, for the purpose of this particular operation, I fear his method would not work, but I entirely agree with him in his objection to the scheme as a whole. I do not think it will work. I think it will cause an immense amount of confusion, and I do not think the Government has any right to tax one particular class of people for the benefit of the whole. There are a number of points to which I have called attention during the last month or two in connection with this Clause. One of them is the matter alluded to by the right hon. Member for North St. Pancras (Mr. Dickinson)— that is, the question of the non-possibility of holders of less than $5,000 of security to lend. In the course of the last two or three months the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said several times that he thought it possible to meet it, and at one time it was said it could be met by allowing bankers to accumulate a number of small amounts, and then deal with them as a whole. That is not provided, and to-day we have a definite pronouncement from the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he is going to force the holders of these securities to sell, though they will not have the option of lending them. That appears to me a monstrous injustice, and it certainly ought to be remedied.

    There is another point to which I have alluded several times, and that is, what is to be evidence of a security having been offered to the Government? The right hon. Baronet has referred to that point, and the right hon. Gentleman who sits beside him (Mr. Lough) said it was covered by paragraph (b),but there is nothing to show how that covers it. There must be some evidence. How is a banker to know whether a person holding a security has offered it to the Government? Is there to be any kind of documentary evidence, or any form which can show that a security has been offered to the Government and refused? I wish very much the Secretary to the Treasury would tell us about that. There is an exemption in the case of certain securities deposited with persons outside the United Kingdom as securities for loans, but how about securities which have been deposited in virtue of a marriage settlement, or other arrangement outside the United Kingdom? Take the case of American ladies who have married Englishmen, and whose property is in America and under American trustees. Are they to be charged this penal 2s.? In many cases there is no power to sell. I have in my hand a letter from a gentleman whose wife is in that position. Her trustees live in America and are Americans, and the whole of the securities are American securities. They are a trust under the law of Massachusetts, and this letter states that, under the law of Massachusetts, it is not possible for trustees to sell—they have no power of varying their investments. Is this lady's income-it is a life interest—to be penalised by this 2s. tax? I believe this particular case has been put before the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he wrote to the writer of this letter, who was a distinguished Member of the House not very long ago, that this matter was going to be considered, but he has heard nothing about it. "Going to be considered" is a synonym for being smothered, and it seems that no notice will be taken. It is a very important point, and affects a great many trusts, and I would like to know from the Treasury what the decision is to be.

    The fact is, the whole of this scheme has not been properly thought out. It has been drawn up by numbers of gentlemen who are very able as regards the handling of taxation questions within this Kingdom, but when they come to deal with American and other foreign securities they are completely at sea. There is no blame to them. They have to settle an immense number of problems. I hope, therefore, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer before the Report stage will have this question thoroughly examined. He has had a great deal of criticism in the House in the Debate on the Resolutions and in the Debate to-day with regard to various points. The original injustice and the false basis of the system cannot, of course, be changed, but a great many of the hardships might be remedied.

    6.0.p.m.

    I think there are several points in connection with this Clause which ought to be adjusted and made more equitable. All holders of American dollar securities, whether the amount held is less than $5,000, or more, ought to be treated on precisely the same lines; all ought to have an equal right, either to sell or to lend them to the Government at their option. As the matter stands, we have no assurance whatsoever that holders of less than $5,000 will receive equal and fair treatment. I submit that this ought to be made perfectly clear. Then, again, how on earth are a number of holders of American dollar securities to get to know whether or not their particular security is on the Government list 1 I went to the National Debt Office this morning. I was given two lists, and told that another list would probably be issued on Thursday, and that from the date of the next list, if a particular security I was inquiring about was included in it, they gave twenty-eight days, but, if the amount held was below $5,000, it could not be deposited, and the holder of that particular security would be compelled to sell. I do not think that is fair treatment at all, because it is often of much greater importance to small holders that they should not be subject to loss and hardship of this kind than it is to the larger holders who are quite able to take care of themselves. We have not had any clear and definite statement in regard to several points. I cannot understand this policy of concealment. We have been told that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was considering whether he could reduce the limit below $5,000, and we have failed to draw any definite reply from him. I think the time has come when we should have these matters cleared up in a positive and definite fashion. We are told that certain securities will not at present be bought. I offered to the Treasury New I York Central 6 per Cent. Gold Bonds and they would not buy them because it was an issue made after the beginning of the War. I call that absurd. Could anything be more suitable for our purposes than New York Central 6 per Cent. Gold Bonds as a dollar security? But I was told that they were not prepared to buy these bonds. The amount happened to be only $3,000, and therefore they could not be deposited, and what is to happen in a case of that sort? The only reply I can get is "Wait and see."

    We are told to see if our securities appear in subsequent lists to the published in the "London Gazette," and therefore you have got to be on the qui vice for months to come in order to see if your particular security is published in the "London Gazette." What an absurd arrangement-Why cannot the Government make up their mind which security they will admit and which they will not admit, and let the public know. To allow small holders whose interests we ought to most; jealously guard and protect only to have the option of selling when it involves a considerable loss is a discreditable transaction. We must remember that the French Government are at the present time offering two-and-a-half times the bonus which the English Government are offering for securities deposited with them, and they are offering a dividend of 25 per cent, on the total amount of dividends, not only for American dollar securities but also for Japanese, South African, Russian and all kinds of securities. If the Government are not careful a large number of securities which the otherwise might have at their disposal will not be available because the French Government are paying 2 ½ times as much as we are paying in bonus. I do not want the British Government to increase their bonus, but when we know the French Government is offering 25 per cent. as a premium or bonus on these securities it does seem that the holders of these small bonds in this country are entitled to very generous and fair treatment in all other respects.

    In the first place, let me get rid once for all of the misapprehension which exists in many quarters of the Committee that there is a distinction made between buying and depositing. We have identified the purchase list and the sale list of the Treasury, and we shall not put into the Treasury lists gazetted securities which we are not willing to buy or borrow. At present none of the cases which have been mentioned arise, and there is no necessity for any apprehension, because, unless the Treasury are willing to take these securities on deposit or purchase, they will not be subject to this tax. The list appears, and it contains the securities which the Treasury are willing to purchase or borrow. Since the Resolution was passed by this House we have identified the two lists so as to get over that difficulty.

    Are we to understand that the Treasury are also willing to buy or borrow certain securities when in no case those two categories come into the list?

    Why do you want proof if you have the securities? Let me deal with the point raised about the 5,000 dollars limit. The hon. Member for Inverness (Mr. Bryce), I do not know on what ground, said that when the Treasury states that any suggestion would be considered it simply means that it would be smothered. All I can say is that every suggestion thrown out in the House of Commons has always been carefully considered by the Treasury.

    With regard to the 5,000 dollars limit, in order that our machinery may not break down, and in order that we shall not be face to face with any delay in dealing with them, we do not want to be snowed up with thousands of small applications, and we are perfecting a scheme by which holders of smaller amounts than 5,000 dollars may invest them through the agency of banks, who will collect their securities, and then we can deal with them in bigger parcels. The scheme is not ready yet or we should have announced the details. It is, however, only a matter of days, and then this difficulty will disappear.

    Yes. With regard to Treasury lists, the difficulty about proposals of this kind is that immediately you publish the lists you get an enormous correspondence from people who want to sell and deposit. You get offers of sale, and all these things cannot be dealt with by ordinary laymen, and unless the nation is going to suffer you must have a specially trained staff of people who are judges in dealing with stocks and shares. We have working for the Treasury a staff of patriotic gentlemen whose work, night and day, has been beyond praise. The only way you can regulate the stream of offers, and the amount you get week by week, is to deal with selected lists at selected times, and not have every security of different kinds in one list. The difficulty in arranging for some securities is greater than in the case of others. If we can get rid of the bigger masses we shall get over the difficulty, and our harvest will be derived from the existing list. If we get rid of the bigger amounts by this simple process we shall be able to deal more promptly with other cases that come afterwards. That is why we cannot put in a date and why the date will have to be published from time to time. I thank my right hon. Friend for his suggestion that we cannot publish these lists too widely. It is not our intention merely to publish them in the "London Gazette," but we publish them there to make them official and in order to identify them with this provision of the Act of Parliament.

    Would it not be possible to put in twenty-eight days to commence not earlier than such-and-such a date. I see the difficulty of publishing one list, but I think there should be something to show that the twenty-eight days really means after the 29th of July, and that until then they need not trouble. Something of that sort ought to be put in, because everybody does not know what the intention is.

    I will consider that, and I will see if we cannot find some means of making this more plain. Another reason why we deal with this matter in this way is that we do not want to be the possessor of large amounts of securities before we can dispose of them. We are fully aware of the dangers we run to which the right hon. Gentleman opposite has drawn our attention, and every effort is made not to include in our list things that we shall not find a market for or be able to use, or which may remain on our hands for such a time as to become a danger. The point I wish to bring to the notice of the Committee is that I think the right hon. Gentleman opposite has somewhat belittled' the vital necessity of us getting these securities. I do not wish to enter into the economic part of it, but it is not simply a question of profit or loss to the Exchequer. The point is that, whether we like it or not, for the conduct of this War it is necessary to purchase enormous quantities of goods both for ourselves and our Allies in America. No human being that I have ever met can devise any way of paying for these except by exporting goods that America will buy or by obtaining loans in America.

    The goods which the Americans will buy are these securities, gold, and our exported manufactures. We have not an unlimited supply of gold. There are obvious limits to the amount that we can manufacture for export, limits which grow presumably greater with every man we take into the Army or into munition work. These securities are things which the Americans will not only buy but they will lend you money on them, and therefore, unless we can, as it is so often expressed in the Press, "mobilise" our resources, the supply must stop. It is not a question of the convenience of the holder of American securities. It is the vital necessity of carrying on this War at all, and of arming ourselves with munitions that makes it absolutely essential that we should get these securities. We are discriminating between one kind of property and another, because we want this property, and we have no use for any other kind of property at the moment. If the time came when we could use any other form of property, in order to pay for goods which we must have, and in order to carry this War to a successful conclusion, the Government would come down to the House of Commons and say that we wanted them, and I am perfectly confident that the House, which has supported the Government throughout this War in finding the ways and means to carry it on, would give it those further powers, just as they are going to give us power in respect of these American securities.

    I will make one more dispairing appeal to the right hon. Gentleman with reference to his answer. The right hon. Gentleman put the position in a nutshell by saying that what we had to do was to meet our indebtedness to America. Every one agrees that we have to pay for our munitions and for those other necessaries we require, but what I vainly endeavoured to point out last year, and I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer agreed that my argument was a sound one, was that this policy of exporting American securities stimulates and increases this indebtedness. It surely follows that if you can reduce this in- debtedness, and I think you can, by not pursuing this policy, then you will be able to pay your debts on the other side. Let me give one instance. It was stated by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, in answer to a question put by the hon. Member for West Ham (Mr. W. Thorne), in reference to the amount of bacon that was coming into this country, that the imports of bacon in the first five months of the present year amounted to 3,500,000 cwts., as compared with 2,200,000 cwts. in the previous year. He went on to show that the imports were likely to be increased in the immediate future, and he said that of these quantities 2,200,000 cwts. in 1916 and 700,000 cwts. in 1914 were consigned from the United States. We thus see that this debt is being increased and stimulated by this policy. There is no reason why we cannot get bacon from other sources or why we cannot increase the supply here. Under this system you are playing into the hands of the American exporter. There is also the case of motor cars and their accessories, and boots and shoes. The excess of imports is not at all confined to munitions. It will probably be found that the excess is something like £500,000,000 this year. It is stimulated by this very policy.

    We have to meet this indebtedness, and, as the right hon. Gentleman has pointed out, there are three ways of doing it. A very considerable increase could be made in our exports. The right hon. Gentleman himself said that we could not increase our exports because we had a scarcity of labour. Those who have opposed this continual withdrawal of labour from industry have largely done so for that reason. We thought it unwise to jeopardise our position, and that we should be stronger if we kept more labour in industry. Our supply of American securities is not unlimited, and if we pile up this artificial position by stimulating imports and by encouraging our people to spend freely, as they are doing, what shall we do when our supplies are exhausted? We cannot then suddenly put people back into industry and suddenly expand our exports. It is absurd to tell us that it is necessary to pay for these munitions by taking American securities. By this method you are impoverishing yourself, using up your resources, and accentuating the very evil you are seeking to redress. The Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted that my argument was a sound one, but said that we were at war. As the hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Holt) pointed out when that argument was used to him, war has not altered the multiplication table or the law of exchange. We have to carry on, and we hope to carry on. I listened with great interest to the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury). I agree with the great part of his speech, but I take exception when he says that we should pursue the same policy as France and Germany.

    That is the very point. I am very sorry to part company with the right hon. Gentleman. We are not quite in the same position as France. They have a double standard, and prohibit gold payments. We have tried to maintain gold payments, and I am with the Government there. We have tried to maintain our position and not to sink into the position of France and Germany by prohibiting the exports of gold. Germany have not a double standard, but they prohibit the export of gold. We would like to retain the proud position of being the one free market for gold in the whole world. We are anxious that the bill on London should continue to command, as it always has done, its face value in the markets of the world, and it is because I realise that, because I realise if we pursue this spendthrift and profligate system we shall sooner or later become impoverished, and because I realise we are at war that I advance this argument. Authorities like Lord Goschen, who was a distinguished Member of this House, take this very point of an adverse and unfavourable exchange, and would go beyond the various remedies, such as loans. This is a loan and has the same effect as if we placed a loan in America. It is a mere palliative and accentuates the position by increasing the indebtedness.

    I am following my hon. Friend, but are we not to pay for the commodities we get?

    Certainly, but the part that munitions play in our indebtedness is greatly exaggerated.

    I have given you one item of an enormous increase. Take the imports of motor cars.

    Would the hon. Member say that we are importing more food now than before the War?

    I am absolutely certain of it. I would ask the hon. Member to pay some attention to this fact. The working classes have never had such wages as they are receiving now. They are in receipt of the highest wages in their history, and they are probably eating far more than is good for them, and spending it freely. You are stimulating this extravagance. It may be necessary because you require labour, and labour is able to command its price. They ought to have a fair return for their work, but undoubtedly the consumption of food is aggravated at the present time. If you go to the Midlands and the North of England, you will find that there is a large consumption of butter and ham, and in the amount which they expend upon boots and shoes and everything that the working classes and other classes may desire. If you wish to correct the exchange, surely the way to do so would be first to stop diluting your currency by continually issuing Treasury Notes. We have now got £121,000,000 worth. Does not the Financial Secretary to the Treasury think that has some effect upon the exchange? Docs not that increase the indebtedness and make more difficult the position which he is trying to rectify of paying for this indebtedness in America? It surely has its influence. There are seven or eight causes which affect the exchange. He says that he has to meet a dollar balance in America. I have endeavoured to show how he can do so. If he reduces his imports, will not the debt which he has to meet be reduced? If he would really give some consideration to these proposals by increasing his taxation, or even by having a graduated tax on wages, he would reduce the consumption of the working classes, he would contract his exchange, and he would turn the exchange in his favour. He would do something by letting out £5,000,000 or £10,000,000 of gold.

    With all deference to the hon. Member, is he not merely repeating an argument with which he has favoured us already?

    I frankly admit that I am, but one cannot very well argue against the principle of this Clause without doing so. I am sorry if I weary the hon. Member. I shall certainly try to curtail my remarks, but it is very difficult to argue against this principle without necessarily repeating oneself. If the hon. Member, who is a very learned exponent of eloquence in this House, can show me any other method I shall be glad to learn from him or anybody else. I endorse the appeal made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London to the Treasury to consider the advisability of pausing in this task of collecting securities. They have already admitted that they have a plentiful supply. Apparently they do not give very much consideration to the arguments addressed to them, but I do hope the speech of the right hon. Baronet will receive some attention, and if we cannot get them to reverse their present policy we may possibly make them pause in their riotous progress in impoverishing and destroying British resources.

    While acknowledging the fair and conciliatory tone in which the Financial Secretary answered the appeal I made to him in regard to what seems to me a very serious matter, I should like him, if he would, to deal with the point of the notices which are given with regard to these penal taxes. I have one of the notices in my hand, and I never saw a more unintelligible document to put before simple, uninstructed people. We are told that the lists are published in the "London Gazette," but whoever sees that paper?

    My hon. Friend who has just interrupted me is in the habit of coming into the House for a few moments while a Debate is going on and then he intervenes in a most reprehensible manner. The point I want to put to the right hon. Gentleman is that he should see that notice is given to the holders of these securities that a penalty is to be imposed if they do not offer them to the Treasury. Surely, if a person upon whom the penalty is to be inflicted is known, it is equally possible to give him notice that he is to be made liable to the tax! If you know the holder of the security, in order to tax him you must also know him and be in a position to give him notice that unless he offers the securities he will be liable to this penalty. Will my right hon. Friend agree to consider this point between now and the Report stage?

    I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for the assurances he has given me. But I wish to point out that, in answering my argument, he did not allude to my suggestion that the proper course to pursue is to borrow the stock or bonds and not to purchase them. I consider that a very important point. The right hon. Gentleman, however, did not allude to it, but, instead of doing so, at the end of his speech he repeated the old story that this was war, and people must be willing to sacrifice their property in consequence. Nobody denies that the State has a right when at war to take anybody's property if it is supposed to be in the national interest to do so. Indeed, it can do this whether we are at war or not. But the proceeding is subject to the proviso that the proper price shall be fixed by a proper tribunal and shall be paid for the property. The right hon. Gentleman is taking other people's property not at its proper value, but at whatever may happen to be the quotation of the day in the Stock Exchange list. Anybody who has had any experience of these prices on the Stock Exchange list knows that they are often the nominal prices and not the market value at all. The list does not give the prices which represent the real market value; it is merely a statement of what is considered to be at the moment the price at which somebody else is willing to buy or sell; in many cases there are only sellers, in other cases there are only buyers, and in no case, with the exception of comparatively small amounts, has it ever been possible except in the old days in the Consols Market, and those days no longer exist, to say that these prices represent the real value.

    What is being done by the Government is not to take a man's property at its full value fixed by a responsible tribunal, but to take it at the price which somebody thinks is the value, because some transaction may have taken place on those terms a few days previously. The result is that a man may be compelled to sell his securities at a price quoted in the list in New York when there are no sellers in New York but only buyers. Great loss may therefore be imposed by this arbitrary method of taking these securities. Nobody objects to their property being taken from them in the interests of the State provided they get full value. But I for one do object to property being taken in an unfair way, and I especially object, seeing that I have endeavoured to show there is another method which will inflict no hardship on the owners of these bonds and which at the same time will give every facility to the State. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman has warned the people who compose the Committee dealing with these securities not to be too venturesome and not to buy what they may not be able to resell. Many of us would be very glad indeed to be able to carry out such a policy, but we have never found it possible. Therefore, although I have great faith in this Committee, I do not think they will be able to do exactly what the right hon. Gentleman suggests. For these reasons I still oppose the Clause.

    I want to apologise to the right hon. Baronet for not having answered one of his points. I may say, in justification, I spent some moments trying to read a note on my Order Paper, and now I know what it refers to. It is this very point. We cannot confine ourselves only to the borrowing of securities, and for this very obvious reason: When you borrow securities all you can do is to borrow on them. There is some limit to the amount you can borrow at any particular time. There is some limit to the length of loan you can get, and it would be a bad financial expedient to adopt to raise all your funds in America by loan and to have no free dollars to use. If you want a loan for a particular time for a particular purpose the transaction could not be carried through unless you are able to purchase and borrow at the same time. With regard to the point put by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Islington (Mr. Lough), I may say everybody has been circularised upon this matter to an almost unlimited extent, but I will gladly consider the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion as to whether any-further notice is possible.

    The right hon. Gentleman, in his reply, did not allude to the point raised by the hon. Baronet the Member for Barnsley (Sir J. Walton), who pointed out that one could go to the National Debt Office with securities on the list of those purchaseable or borrow-able and not be able to carry out any transaction in regard to them. The right hon. Gentleman says he does not want to be overburdened with a mass of securities of the same kind, and that time has to be spent in sifting them out. But, in the meantime, what is to happen to the holders of these securities, who are going to be subjected to this penal tax because they may not have offered them, or because their offer has been refused by the Treasury? What evidence will there be that they have made the offer to the Treasury? This is a very important point, and I think it ought to be dealt with at once. We all know that considerable numbers of these securities are entered on the list as being purchaseable or borrowable, when, as a matter of fact, they are neither. For instance, certain Canadian Pacific securities, mentioned on the list as being purchaseable, are not so purchaseable. Why, if you do not intend to purchase them, are they put upon the list?

    But there are a number of securities on the list, and if one goes to the Treasury and says he wants to lend or sell them, the Treasury will not take them. There are only three more days before these deductions will begin, and the people want to know what they are to do if the Government refuse to purchase, and what evidence will be acceptable of their offer with a view to preventing the Income Tax deduction being made.

    Any security which is on the list is chargeable, with the exception of the cases of small holders, in respect of whom we are making arrangements. When I opened the Parliamentary Papers this morning and saw there was no Amendment on the Clause I was extremely surprised. I fully expected Amendments were to be moved, and I am now given to understand that that is so. I am going to suggest one or two reasons for postponing the discussion. One reason, the one of least importance, is that it would be a great convenience to my right hon. Friend and myself that we should be free at the present moment, because there is a Cabinet meeting being held and we are both anxious to attend. But there is a more important reason. It would be a great advantage if we could see on the Paper the Amendments which are to be moved. It will be very difficult for us to deal with them and to appreciate their full scope unless we do see them on the Paper. Therefore I would make an appeal to the Committee to allow us to take the Second Reading of this Clause and then to report Progress and continue J the discussion of the Bill to-morrow.

    Question, "That the Clause be read a second time," put, and agreed to.

    Clause added to the Bill.

    I apologise to the Committee for not having explained that, as a matter of fact, there is no other business which the House can take. I hope hon. Members, under the circumstances, will excuse our reporting Progress.

    Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again"—[ Mr. McKenna]—put, and agreed to.

    Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow (Wednesday).

    The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

    Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 22nd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

    I desire to ask the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury whether he has had any notice from any quarter that any subject would be raised on the Adjournment, and, if so, has he let Mr. Speaker know? So far as I know, hon. Members generally expected the Debate to continue, and I hope no one is being cut out inadvertently of an opportunity he wished to take.

    I certainly have not heard of any subject to be raised on the Adjournment to-night. I do not know whether Mr. Speaker has.

    Question put, and agreed to.

    Adjourned accordingly at Twelve minutes before Seven o'clock.