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Commons Chamber

Volume 85: debated on Thursday 17 August 1916

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House Of Commons

Thursday, 17th August, 1916.

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Disturbances In Ireland

King Steeet, Dublin (Deaths)

advancing to the Table,announced the Lord Mayor of the City of Dublin.

The Right Hon. the Lord Mayor of the City of Dublin, attended by an Alderman and the Town Clerk, appeared at the Bar.

What have you there, my Lord Mayor of Dublin?

The Town Clerk read a petition from the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the City of Dublin praying for an immediate inquiry into the causes of the deaths of citizens in King Street, Dublin, on 8th May, 1916.

Private Business

Craven Estates Bill [ Lords,]

Ordered, That Standing Order 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time. — [ The Chairman of Ways and Means.]

Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.

Statistical Abstract (Colonies)

Copy presented of Statistical Abstract for the several British Self-Governing Dominions, Colonies, Possessions, and Protectorates, in each year from 1900 to 1014. Fifty-second number [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Output Of Coal In The United Kingdom

Return presented relative thereto [ordered 16th August; Mr. Harcourt]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 120.]

Army

Copy presented of return showing the approximate Cost of the Hutting provided, or being provided, for the accommodation of Troops (including hospital patients) and Horses in the United Kingdom, in the years 1914 to 1916 [by Command]; to lie-upon the Table.

Oral Answers To Questions

War

British Consul (Rotterdam)

1.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Mr. Albert George Hol-zapfel has been appointed British Consul at Rotterdam; if so, will he say what is this gentleman's nationality; whether Mr. Holzapfel's uncle was German Consul in Newcastle-on-Tyne prior to and up to the outbreak of war; and if it is not possible to find men of British name and birth to-fill Consular positions in neutral countries?

5.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if a Mr. G. Holzapfel, a nephew of the late German Consul, of Newcastle-on-Tyne, has been appointed to any position in connection with cur Consular service; and, if so, will he state where and the nature of the appointment and its duties?

Mr. A. G. Holzapfel is a British-born subject. He has been given an honorary appointment as British Vice-Consul at Rotterdam, in order to enable him better to discharge certain special duties in Holland connected with commercial questions of which he has expert knowledge. He will, of course, in no way displace or interfere with His Majesty's Consul - General at Rotterdam, who approves of his appointment. His Majesty's Government have no precise information as to the relationship between Mr. A. G. Holzapfel and the Mr. Max Holzapfel, who was German Consul in Newcastle-on-Tyne before the outbreak of war, and who was a naturalised British subject. His Majesty's Government are not prepared to lay it down as an inflexible rule that no British-born subject with a foreign name should receive any appointment under the British Crown. The guarantee of the fitness of an individual for a post is not knowledge of his name, but of his personal character, qualities, and record.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the name of the late German Consul at Newcastle-on-Tyne was Mr. Max Holzapfel, who was an uncle of the gentleman in question; and that this German Consul, Max Holzapfel, left this country shortly after the outbreak of war and has not returned?

Is the right hon. Gentleman also aware that this gentleman's father, who was naturalised, is stated to have left England at the outbreak of the War; that this gentleman has near relations living at Charlottenburg; and, if this gentleman is true to his race, is it not possible for him to communicate with his relatives from Charlottenburg?

All I can say is that this gentleman is a British-born subject. If there is anything against him personally, of course, the Government will be prepared to consider it. I must repeat respectfully that the mere fact that a man has a German name or is of ultimate German extraction would not of itself be: sufficient to debar him from becoming a Consul.

Without disputing the general principle laid down by the Noble Lord, may I ask does he not think it would tend to general satisfaction in a time of war if as few appointments as possible were given to people who are closely associated with alien enemies?

I should not disagree with the hon. Gentleman in the general principle he has laid down. At the same time he will also agree with me that the first consideration is the proper discharge of the public service.

Will the Noble Lord consider that there has been a number of appointments within the last few months to which attention has been called in this House, all filled by gentlemen with foreign names and hostile associations?

Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that in a case like this it is extremely dangerous to appoint a gentleman belonging to this particular family, considering that the firm of Holzapfel, Limited, is at present being considered by the Board of Trade under the Trading With the Enemy Act, on the ground that there is suspicion attaching to the members of that family?

Of course, in this matter, as in all matters of a similar kind, the Government are bound to act upon the advice which they receive from those who are best acquainted with the gentleman concerned. We have acted in accordance with that advice. If my hon. Friend has any observations to make about this appointment which tends to show that he is not satisfactory for the appointment which he holds, I need not say that the Government will be very glad indeed to-consider what he has to say. The mere fact that there is some prejudice against the family is not sufficient.

Persia (British Subjects)

2.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has any official information showing the release of the staff of the Shiraz branch of the Imperial Bank of Persia who have been held prisoners for the last nine-months by German emissaries in Persia; and if he can give any information regarding the British Consul and other British Government officials at Shiraz who have been held prisoners with them?

I am happy to say that not only the gentlemen of the Imperial Bank of Persia but all the British subjects detained at Ahram—with the unfortunate exception of Colonel O'Connor —have been released and arrived at Bushire on the 10th instant. It is hoped that as soon as the Persian tribesman who is to be released simultaneously with Colonel O'Connor arrives from Bombay, this officer may be set free.

Greece

4.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the demobilisation of the Greek Army is proceeding satisfactorily; whether he has any information as to when it will be completed; and whether any date has been fixed for the elections in that country to take place?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative; and that to the second in the negative. I am not aware whether the Greek Government have announced the date of the elections, which depends on the date of dissolution of the Chamber.

Prisoners Of War

Kut-El-Amara

3.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many of the prisoners who fell into Turkish hands at Kut-el-Amara have been traced; and whether, in view of the anxiety of relatives, he will publish the names of such officers and men directly they are known?

My right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs has asked me to answer this question. I will preface my answer by stating, in reply to the last part of the question, that the names of prisoners of war, when received; are at once communicated to the next-of-kin, who are not left to discover the names in the columns of the Press. After such communication has been made, the names are published. The numbers traced are as follows:

British Army Officers80
British N.C.O.'s. and Men178
Indian Army Officers139
No native N.C.O.'s and men have been reported by name.

96.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether any and, if so, what steps have been taken to provide occupation and recreation for the British prisoners of war who have been and are being sent from Germany to Switzerland?

I understand the Minister at Berne is doing all he can in this direction, and we shall give him whatever help he may require.

Munitions

Centbal Contbol Boabd (Liquob, Traffic)

29.

asked the Minister of Munitions if the light beer manufactured for the Control Board and sold as shell beer contains very considerable quantities of saccharine; and if he is aware that the use of this article is prohibited in the case of brewers who brew beer?

No light beer is specially manufactured for the Control Board. The use of saccharine is prohibited in the manufacture of beer brewed in a licensed brewery, but this prohibition does not extend to the manufacture of beer brewed elsewhere.

If the use of this saccharine is so unwholesome that it is prohibited in a brewery licensed to brew beer for sale, why is its use authorised for the peculiar liquid for the sale of which the right hon. Gentleman's Department is responsible?

I am not responsible for the sale of any peculiar liquid. As for the other part of the question, it is a matter for the Inland Revenue authority. I cannot reply to it.

Carbonising Coal (New Process)

30.

asked the Minister of Munitions why the Government withdrew from the arrangement made with the Barnsley Company to put up a plant to work the new process of carbonising coal at low temperature for the production of materials for explosives and dyes; if the Government had paid £10,000 and had proposed to pay a further £15,000 against similar sums paid by the Barnsley Company; if the failure of the Government to carry out the arrangement has delayed this important plant which is urgently needed and from which so much was expected; and if the soft coke resulting from the low combustion process is more valuable as a fuel than the hard coke although not so suitable for smelting purposes?

The Government has not withdrawn from any agreement with the Barnisley Smokeless Fuel Company. The Government took £10,000 in debentures in the company, but has not been disposed to assist further in view of the slow progress made in the erection of the plant by the company and because it now appears doubtful whether the process will prove of much service in the production of munitions. There has been no failure of the Government to carry out its obligations; the failure has been on the part of the company. I have no information of the value of the coke resulting from the low combustion process, except that it is of small value for smelting purposes, and therefore of little importance in the production of munitions.

The question does not mention the word agreement. Is it not a fact that an arrangement was come to that the persons putting up this factory should put it up pound by pound with the Government, the Government advanced their,£10,000 and the people advanced their £10,000, and there was £15,000 further to be advanced by each, and the Government then withdrew?

Is it not a typical example of a case where there are very wealthy vested interests opposing it and it is difficult to get the Government to undertake anything?

I do not know where the vested interests are at all. All I know is that we are advised that this does not seem likely to be a success.

How much Government money was expended before you came to the conclusion that it was a failure?

Army Ordnance Department, Woolwich

31.

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware that 200 soldiers have recently been employed in the Army Ordnance Department and by the Chief Inspection Department, Woolwich, working in two batches on day and night shift, for an average of thirteen hours per shift, without extra pay, and were marched to and from the place of work; whether he is aware that numbers of workmen, some of them married, who were employed on the class of work to which these soldiers were put have recently been discharged; and whether, in view of the pledges given against any introduction of industrial compulsion, he will take into consideration the advisability of placing all departments at Woolwich under civilian control?

A party of soldiers have been employed in one of the Departments at Woolwich. The hours worked were, by the day-shift, nine hours, less breaks of about one and three-quarter hours, and, by the night-shift, ten hours, less breaks of about one and a half hours. It is not the case that civilian labourers engaged on similar work were discharged. On the contrary, about thirty new labourers were engaged during the time when the soldiers were working. The work is of a heavy character, and it is impossible to satisfy the urgent demands for this particular class of labour.

Midland Railway Workmen, Derby

32.

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware that the men employed at No. 8 erecting shop, Midland Railway, Derby, are now on short time, being booked off from 5.30 p.m. each Friday until 6 a.m. the following Monday, which actually occurred in the week the men were required to work through August Bank holiday, and the company have refused leaving certificates to a number of men who have offers of employment at much higher wages, and leave has also been refused to men who desired to take a few days' holiday; and, in view of the hardship involved by an employer refusing leaving certificates to men on short time and whose labour could be fully utilized elsewhere, whether he will have inquiries made into the matter?

The case referred to in this question had not previously been brought to my notice, but I am making further inquiries into it. It is always open to a workman to whom a leaving certificate has been refused by his employer to apply to a munitions tribunal for the issue of a certificate if he is of opinion that such refusal is unreasonable. A form of application to a tribunal can be obtained at any Labour Exchange.

33.

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware that there is apprehension prevalent among Midland Railway men about the effect of employment in the munition bond stores, Derby, owing in the first place that many of the men were threatened that if they refused to be transferred to the bond stores under the Ministry of Munitions, and in some cases at lower rates of wages, they would be released for the Army, and, secondly, when retransferred to the Midland Railway shops they are not reinstated at their former rate of pay, which was understood would be the case; and whether he will inquire into the matter and ensure that the position of the railwaymen affected will not be prejudiced as a result of having been working in the Government bond stores?

The labour employed in the bond stores at Derby is not under the control of the Ministry of Munitions, and I am not in a position to intervene in the matter.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not see the danger of a threat of this kind being held over the heads of these men?

Does the right hon. Gentleman not see the; danger if a man is offered a certain job at a certain price and he refuses it, and he is threatened that he will be released to go into the Army? Is not that a matter for his Department to take up?

Cammell, Laieds, Birkenhead

35.

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware that the night-patrol men employed at Messrs. Cammell, Lairds, Birkenhead, work an average of eighty-nine hours a week— thirteen hours for five nights and twelve hours for the other two nights of the week—for a wage of 34s. per week, and that these patrol men never received any extra rates for working during the last calendar Bank holiday; whether he is aware that these men sent a petition to the manager of the firm on 15th June asking consideration of their case and an increase of wages, to which no reply has been given the men; and whether, having regard to the fact that Messrs. Cammell, Lairds are a controlled establishment, steps will be taken to have the men's claim submitted to arbitration within the terms of the Munitions Act?

I have no information as to the points raised in the first two parts of the question. The men them- selves, or their representatives, if they have a difference with their employer,, which cannot be settled otherwise, can report the matter to the Board of Trade under Part I. of the Munitions of War Act, without the intervention of the Ministry of Munitions.

Woolwich Arsenal

78.

asked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware of the congestion which, although it was inevitable at the commencement of the War, still continues to hamper many of the departments in Woolwich Arsenal; whether his attention has been drawn to the difficulties and delays in the production of certain munitions of war both inside the Arsenal and outside owing to the increasing congestion in the drawing and other departments; if, with only a slightly increased staff, the drawing de partment, which before the War was con sidered to be working satisfactorily if it turned out some 10,000 or 12,000 drawings in a year, is now expected to turn out as many as 25,000 to 30,000 drawings in a month; and whether this continuation of congestion still accounts for urgently required drawings being sometimes de layed for from eight to ten weeks, to the detriment of our prompt equipment as-well as to economy in production?

I am aware that a certain amount of congestion and delay existed some months back. The number of people employed on the reproduction of drawings has been greatly increased, and and no very serious delays are now experienced. By the end of this month new buildings and plant will. I hope, be completed, which will further improve the conditions under which this work is done. The output of drawings has risen from 17,000 in January, 1916, to 35,000 in July.

79.

asked the Secretary of State for War if, now that the building and equipment of the new munition factories have already assumed such satisfactory proportions, the Army Council will now take into con sideration the necessity for a thorough and business-like reorganisation of the Arsenal at Woolwich, so that by the removal of congestion its former efficiency may be maintained; and whether, in the interest of the prompt and economical production of munitions, the Army Council will consider the desirability of disentangling some of the departments and workshops and, if practicable, of removing the manufacture of certain classes of munitions to new factories or arsenals further removed from the zone of Zeppelin activity, and at the same time of transferring vacated shops to those other departments which are most in need of expansion at Woolwich?

Taking into consideration the circumstances of pressure and expansion that necessarily prevail, I am not prepared to admit that Woolwich efficiency has not been fully maintained. On the contrary, a special inquiry was held recently by an expert, and the result showed a most gratifying increase, both in output and efficiency. In regard to the second part of the question, some detailed rearrangements may quite likely prove necessary, and, if so, they will be duly considered whenever this is practicable without risk of loss of output or disorganisation.

Dismissal Of Mr Habbel

10.

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if his attention has been called to the correspondence between Sir John Ross and the late Chief Secretary, in which the former declared that his resignation of the post of Chief Commissioner of the Dublin Metropolitan Police in 1914 was a protest against an act of tyranny and of unfair dealing on the part of the Chief Secretary in dismissing the Assistant Commissioner, Mr. Harrel, for conduct which was approved by Sir John Ross, his superior officer, and for which the latter accepted full responsibility; whether, in view of Sir John Ross's statement that Mr. Harrel had always discharged his duties most faithfully and most efficiently, and that the action for which Mr. Harrel was dismissed by the Chief Secretary was taken with the concurrence of the Under-Secretary for Ireland, who later changed his mind and censured Mr. Harrel, and having regard to the vindication of Mr. Harrel's conduct by the recent rebellion in Dublin brought about by the feebleness of the late Chief Secretary in dealing with the disaffection which it was the aim of Mr. Harrel to suppress, he proposes to reinstate Mr. Harrel or to make public acknowledgment of his services and to compensate him for his treatment by the late Chief Secretary and the Under-Secretary for Ireland?

I must refer my hon. Friend to the replies given by the Prime Minister to his questions on this subject on the 27th June and 6tn July.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the replies to which he refers given by the Prime Minister were on account of the temporary character of the Government of Ireland at that time, and am I to understand now that the right hon. Gentleman has been appointed Chief Secretary, whatever other changes may occur in Ireland, this injustice will not remain unredressed?

My hon. Friend must not expect me to acquiesce in the imputation of injustice in a case which I have not myself investigated, but if representations are now made to the Government of Ireland with regard to this matter they will receive the attention which all representations ought to receive.

I am not sure of the facts, but I have reason to believe that Captain Harrel is rendering very good service in the Royal Naval Reserve.

If inquiries are going to be made by the Irish Government into this matter, will they also make-inquiries as to why no Government official was suspended in Belfast for not interfering with the landing of arms at Lame?

Justices Of Cork And Kerry

12.

asked the Chief Secretary whether his atention has been called to statements made in evidence given before the Royal Commission on the rebellion in Ireland, and also made elsewhere, casting aspersions on the fitness and conduct of the magistrates in the counties of Cork and Kerry, and also on the method of the appointment of justices generally in Ireland; whether any justices have been appointed in the counties mentioned in opposition to the express wishes of the Lords Lieutenant of those counties; if so, how many; whether any particulars can be given as to the number of instances, if any, in which complaints have been made as to the misconduct or disloyalty on the part of any of the justices appointed for these counties since April, 1913; and what action, if any, has been taken upon the receipt of adverse reports on such justices?

I am informed that of the magistrates appointed by the present Lord Chancellor of Ireland in the counties mentioned, none were appointed in opposition to the wishes of His Majesty's Lieutenants of those counties, who, in fact, were consulted in every case. No complaints have been received as to misconduct or disloyalty on the part of any of these magistrates. One magistrate, appointed by virtue of his office as chairman of an urban district council, was recently superseded by the Lord Chancellor, as also one magistrate appointed for the city of Cork several years ago. As regards the general question of the appointment of magistrates, the Lord Chancellor states that in no case has any magistrate been appointed by him without careful inquiry and deliberation, and that it is his custom to take into consideration the views of His Majesty's Lieutenants of the various counties.

I have no recollection of the passage in the evidence of Major Price to which the hon. Member calls my attention, but I am familiar with it generally. I no doubt shall get an opportunity of seeing to what he particularly refers.

Will the right hon. Gentleman look into the matter and ask Major Price for an explanation of his evidence?

Cocaine And Novocaine

23.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, if he is satisfied that novo-caine is an effective substitute for cocaine, he will make his restrictions with regard to the supply of cocaine apply equally to all dentists, registered as well as unregistered?

I see no grounds, as at present advised, for applying the restrictions to practitioners duly registered under the Dentists Act. I would point out also that if registered dentists were prevented from using cocaine, the supply of novo-caine for the unregistered would be made more difficult.

Is there any reason why restrictions should apply to unregistered and not to registered dentists?

Yes, because registered dentists are persons who are registered to receive cocaine, and unregistered dentists are not registered.

Is it the case that they have not a list of unregistered dentists, and cannot get a list of those to whom cocaine is supplied?

Mrs Burnyeat (Release From Internment)

26.

asked the-Home Secretary whether he will state the circumstances which led to Mrs. Burnyeat's internment and her subsequent release; also if he can state under what conditions Mrs. Burnyeat is allowed to reside at Harrogate; and if he can give the name of the competent military authority who advised Mrs. Burnyeat's release, and on what grounds and at whose request this advice was tendered?

I do not think it is desirable in the public interest to state the circumstances which led to Mrs. Burnyeat's internment. I mentioned the circumstances which led to her release in a written answer to a question by the hon. Member for Chippenham on the 3rd August, and would repeat that she was released temporarily at the end of April when her husband was gravely ill. After his death, in view of the medical evidence as to the state of her health, I decided, with the concurrence of the competent military authority on whose recommendation she was interned, to allow her to reside at Harrogate. Her release is conditional on her observing all the restrictions which apply to alien enemies, and certain further stringent conditions as to her movements, correspondence, etc. The military authority in question was the competent military authority appointed to deal with such cases at the War Office, but the responsibility for the decision to release her rests with me.

Did she have residing with her for a considerable period a German woman who has since been tried, convicted and sentenced as a German spy, and under the circumstances if her health cannot stand internment does the right hon. Gentleman not think it is a case in which she might reasonably be deported and sent to her friends in Germany?

Nerve-Shaken Soldiers

28.

asked the Home Secretary if he can state how many soldiers have been admitted to county asylums since the War began; how many county asylums, with what total number of beds, have been handed over to wounded soldiers; and what proportion of the beds so handed over are at present allotted to nerve-shaken cases, certifiable and uncertifiable?

I presume this question refers to the number of soldiers admitted to asylums which have been converted into war hospitals. The number of soldiers so admitted cannot be given without inquiry, but I will send it to the hon. Member when it is ascertained. The whole of eight asylums, an isolated portion of a ninth, and four borough asylums have, under the scheme of the Board of Control, been handed over to the War Office for use as war hospitals for the accommodation of sick and wounded soldiers. The number of insane patients displaced has been approximately 15,750, and some 21,000 beds have been provided for sick and wounded soldiers. This figure does not include about 3,000 beds for soldiers in a newly-erected county asylum handed over previous to occupation. Of the total beds handed over 1,570 in three of the above hospitals are at present allotted to nerve-shaken cases, certifiable and uncertifiable.

57.

asked the Secretary to the Local Government Board if he will state what the Statutory Committee on disablement propose by way of providing occupation for soldiers who have been discharged from the Army as suffering from nervous affection due to the War but who are not certifiable as insane; and whether he can guarantee that such men will not be placed under detention on account of their condition either by the civil or military authorities?

As regards the first part of the question, I would refer to the answer given to the hon. Member for the Harbour Division of Dublin on Thursday last. As regards the latter part of the question, I am not sure precisely what authorities the hon. Member has in mind, but I am afraid I am not in a position to give any guarantee in the matter.

Are any steps being taken to provide convalescent homes for the treatment of these men?

That is a matter which is now under very careful consideration by the Statutory Committee.

If any of these men-are put into county asylums which have been set apart for them will they be then in a position of being under detention in a county asylum?

They would undoubtedly be in the position which the hon. Gentleman describes. We are endeavouring in all these cases to make arrangements with the managers of these asylums that they shall have separate treatment and more favourable treatment.

I am sorry to seem to press this: When county asylums are transferred from their ordinary uses of lunatics into being asylums for wounded soldiers, and are used for the reception of soldiers who are suffering from nerve shock, can it be arranged in those cases that the men shall not be subject to detention as ordinary lunatics?

Military Service

Irish Migbatoby Laboubebs

13.

asked the Chief Secretary whether the Irish Government will instruct the police to issue to intending migrants from Ireland to Great Britain, where the facts warrant it, certificates that they are ordinarily resident in Ireland and are only proceeding to Great Britain for a special purpose; and, if so, whether he will arrange with the civil and military authorities in Great Britain that persons holding such certificates are not to be pressed into the Army against their will?

Several suggestions as to the best mode of dealing with this difficulty have been made to me, and I am in communication with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War upon the subject.

Jewish Refugees

24.

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the case of a number of Russian Jews, resident before the War in France, who came over as refugees to this country in August and September, 1914, when Paris was threatened by the German Armies and owing to the action of the French Government in ordering a partial evacuation of the civil population of Paris; whether, seeing that these people had no intention of settling here but have been unable to obtain passports to enable them to return to France or proceed elsewhere, it is proposed to compel such of them as are of military age to serve in the British Army; and whether he will safeguard their interests either by leaving them alone or by granting them such facilities as will enable him to return to France or depart to a neutral country?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for North Somerset on Tuesday last.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that we have refugees also from Belgium?

Has my right hon. Friend nothing to add to that, in view of what is now known to the Foreign Office, that these Jews if they were in France could now freely go to America?

Conscientious Objectoes

54.

asked the President of the Local Government Board if he will make inquiries into the case of W. H. Smith, of 293, Slade Road, Erdington, who obtained a certificate of exemption from combatant service from the Birmingham Local Tribunal on 15th March, 1916, before the Pelham Committee had been set up; whether he is aware that on 28th April this man applied for a revision of his certificate, on the ground that he was willing to accept work of national importance under the civil authority, but could not undertake service in the Non-Combatant Corps; that on 24th May he received a certificate stating that his case would be revised, and that he has since been waiting for such revision and has been unable to get any regular employment, on the ground that he is technically liable to arrest; and whether, in view of the hardship that is caused to this man by this delay of four months in revising his case, he will take steps to see that the case is decided as soon as possible?

Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that it is very undesirable that this man should be kept in compulsory idleness during a period of four months?

92, 93, and 94.

asked the Secretary of State for War (1) whether, pending the consideration of his case by the Central Appeal Tribunal under the new scheme, he will order the release on furlough of Ealing Penilott, a conscientious objector, who was sent to Usk civil prison on 14th June; (2) whether he will cause an inquiry to be made with a view to ascertaining why Ealing Penilott, a conscientious objector, sent to Usk on 14th June, had not been permitted to communicate with his parents up to 10th August; and (3) whether, pending consideration of their cases by the Central Appeal Tribunal under the new scheme, he will order the release on furlough of the following conscientious objectors, who were on 9th August removed from Forest Hall camp to Newcastle civil prison: George Horwill, H. Horwill, Adam Daniels, Samuel Daniels, Thomas M'Ellin, Leo M'Ellin, Edward M'Ellin, John H. M'Ellin, Fawcett, Harold Watt, and W. H. Thompson?

As Ealing Penilott is in a civil prison the question regarding the facilities for correspondence allowed to him should be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. I cannot undertake that he shall be released on furlough, and the same statement applies to the cases of the men mentioned in Question 94. In connection with these two questions, Nos. 92 and 94, I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer I gave on the 15th of August to the hon. Member for the Kennington Division.

Irish Migrants

61.

asked the Secretary for Scotland if he will state how many Irish migrants have been arrested in and around Glasgow, including Mossend and Motherwell, since 1st August by the police with a view to proceedings against them under the Military Service Act; on whose instructions the police acted in these cases; what was the procedure followed; what were the charges made; and whether he has issued instructions to the police authorities that proceedings of the kind are not in future to be taken unless it is clear that the persons concerned are ordinarily resident in Great Britain and are not here for a special purpose such as is provided for under the Act?

I cannot give the numbers asked for by my hon. Friend, inasmuch as the whole matter in dispute is whether the persons in question are or are not migrants from Ireland. The police would naturally act in conjunction with the military authorities, under the general instructions issued by the Departments concerned. I am communicating with the police on the lines which I indicated on Monday.

Cases Under Consideration

76. and 77.

asked the Secretary of State for War (1) whether he has inquired into the case of Private F. C. Lee, No. 28,561, 13th Battalion, Devon Regiment, now in training for about three weeks at Saltash; whether he is aware that this man was summoned to the Colours by the threats of the recruiting officer, Captain Longrigg, at Bath; whether the same recruiting officer has now sent to him Army Form W 3,470, stating that Lee may be called up any time after 26th September next, whereas the same Captain Longrigg actually threatened to arrest him a month ago if he did not join on 12th July; whether he will call for an explanation of this action from Captain Longrigg; whether he is aware that F. C. Lee was the sole support of his invalid mother and sister, who now only receive 3s. 6d. to live upon; whether, in order to remove a state of things prejudicial to recruiting, he will give Lee a free pass till the end of September and make a proper allowance to his mother and sister; and (2) whether he has inquired into the case of Thomas Simpson, who joined the Loyal North Lancashire Regiment in August, 1914, and was subsequently discharged from the Army as medically unfit; whether a certificate of medical unfitness and discharge was given to him at Preston; why, in view of Section 3, Sub-section (1), of the Military Service Act, Session 2, and paragraph 5 of the First Schedule of the principal Military Service Act, 1916, he was summoned at the Manchester County Police Court on 7th August, 1916, as a deserter and fined £2; where this medically unfit man now is; and whether he is to be kept in the Army?

81.

asked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that the Reserve Battalion of the 20th Royal Welsh Fusiliers, stationed at Kinmel Park, is composed of men who have been rejected as unfit for foreign service and of men who have been injured at the front; that, in consequence, the physical standard of the battalion is low, and that there are in the battalion men who have for some time been recommended for discharge; if he is aware that on 10th August the commanding officer sent round the orderly sergeants to the various dining-rooms to read out to the men a list of penalties which would be applied in future to all men who report sick and are marked M.D. by the medical officer, such penalties to include pack drill from 2 to 4.30 every Saturday afternoon for all men given M.D. during the week, also to parade in front of the canteen at 6 p m. every night for regimental fatigue duty; and if steps will be taken at once to stop this punishment of men who justly report illness?

85.

asked the Secretary of State for War if he will inquire into the treatment of soldiers at Penkridge Bank Camp in Staffordshire; if a man who reported himself sick to the doctor was sent back to parade without examination, and was taken ill and died; and if there have been several cases of suicide among the men in this camp?

89.

asked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that George Quine, G. Hodgson, James Baxter, Richard Aircher, Ernest Cartmell, Samuel Benson, and Arthur Malpas, who were recently engaged to serve on the steamship "Duke of Cumberland," belonging to the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Company, are all of military age, were never employed at sea before, and are therefore not bonâd-fideseamen; whether he can state if these men have been exempted from military service under the Military Service Acts; and, if so, upon what grounds and authority?

further asked—

90. If the Secretary of State for War is aware that F. Brooks, R. Leach, W. Croas-dale, F. Mason, T. Baron, R. Brooks, W. Bolton, A. Robinson, T. Gillett, T. Cartmell, W. Kirkham, T. Bonny, R. Mather, C. Austin, and J. Wignall, who were recently engaged to serve on the steamship "Duke of Connaught," belonging to the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Company, running from Fleetwood to Belfast, are all of military age, are not bunâ-fide seamen and were never at sea before joining that vessel, and that, on their accepting service in the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Company's boats on account of the seamen being on strike, they were informed that while they were in the service of the railway company they would be exempt from military service; and whether he will state upon what grounds and authority these men have been exempted from military service under the Military Service Acts?

95.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Edward Murphy and John Cleary, both of Clydebank, Glasgow, left Ireland for the first time last March specially to work at munitions, and have since been so employed in Glasgow, and that under the Military Service Act these men, not ordinarily resident in Britain, are exempt, and more especially as they were engaged in munition work; whether he is aware that they have since been brought before a Court, fined £1 each, and received warrants to join the Colours; and whether, seeing that such action is contrary to the Military Service Act and calculated to work injury if persisted in, he will take immediate steps to allow those men back to their work?

98.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Messrs. Riley and Browne applied on the 23rd June last to the Islington local tribunal for exemption under the Military Service Act, 1916, Session 2, and have received from that tribunal no notice of the hearing of their applications, but have, contrary to the provisions of that Act and while their applications were pending, been arrested and charged before a magistrate and fined and handed over to the military authority; and whether he will give directions for their immediate release?

All I can say in answer to these eight questions is that they cannot be answered without reference to the Commands, as the information asked for is not in the possession of the War Office. Reports will in each case be obtained, and when received will be communicated to the hon. Members interested by letter, so as to save them the necessity for taking further trouble in the matter.

Arising out of the answer to 76 and 77, is the hon. Gentleman aware that I sent him full information about these two cases at the end of last week, and that these questions have been on the Paper a very considerable time, and cannot he facilitate and accelerate the reply to these questions?

I am ready to do anything I can to accelerate the reply, but I am not in a position to give as full a reply as I should like to the hon. Gentleman without communicating with the various Commands, which is being done.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that Questions 89 and 90 refer to cases where the Military Service Act is used for the purpose of encouraging blacklegs to break a dispute, and does that come within the category of the other questions?

It comes within the category, but I cannot give an answer without information.

Would it assist if these questions were put down a long time in advance, with all the information and references fully set out?

I beg to give notice that I shall call attention to this question on the Motion for the Adjournment.

In view the the very great importance of this question, will the hon. Gentleman make inquiry by telegraph, or by any other means quickly?

I think I am right in saying that inquiries have been made, but we have not received an answer.

War Badges

83.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he can say when the issue of the silver badges to men discharged out of the Army on account of wounds will be commenced; and whether he can state the approximate number of men to whom these badges will be issued?

The arrangements for the issue of the war badges will be completed in a few days, and instructions as to the means of making application will be issued through the Press. I fear I am not in a position to state the approximate number of men to whom these badges will be issued.

Taxi-Drivers, Edinburgh

37.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether all the taxi-cab drivers in Edinburgh have a uniform allowance of petrol; and, if not, what is the reason of the distinction?

Taxi-cab drivers in Edinburgh have been allowed 50 per cent, of their requirements, as shown by them at the time the census was taken for the purposes of the Petrol Control Committee, and if their normal consumption for petrol was not uniform before the census, the allowances granted to the drivers will not be uniform. If there is a general wish on the part of the Edinburgh drivers for a uniform allowance the Petrol Control Committee will be prepared to arrange for such an allowance on the lines followed in London.

Petrol Supply

39.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that a German named Kearton, manager of a colliery at Chislet, Kent, is constantly to be seen driving about in a motor car, especially when any movement of troops takes place in the district; whether this man has a licence to use a motor car, and, if so, for what reason the licence was granted; and if he will say what allowance of petrol has been allotted to him under the recent restriction orders?

The Chislet Colliery Company have been licensed to be supplied with 10 gallons of petrol a month for a motor car. I understand that no licence for petrol for a motor car has been issued to Mr. Kearton personally. The remainder of the hon. Gentleman's question relates to matters with which the Home Office appear to be concerned, and I will draw their attention to it.

War Risk Insurance

40.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has completed his consideration of the case for revision of the present scheme of insurance against war risks; and whether, in view of the diminution of risk of hostile attack by sea and the probability that within the next twelve months the risk from all kinds of hostile attack will be still further reduced, he can see his way to make some modification in the scheme for the benefit of policy holders who have to renew their insurance for a period of twelve months?

The question whether any modification can safely be made in the Government aircraft insurance scheme is being carefully studied, but it is not possible to make any statement at present.

Is it not possible to make a statement as to when the right hon. Gentleman can decide what is to be done now that premiums are being paid for the coming twelve months?

Lancashire And Yorkshire Railway

41.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that there is a feeling prevalent among Lancashire and Yorkshire railwaymen that Rule 273, Clause (c), should be, amended so that the responsibility for the appointment of a flagman or other competent person to give the necessary warning when work is proceeding in tunnels or where the approach of a train cannot be observed or heard in time for the men to get out of the way should lie with a higher official of the company, and not, as now, with the ganger; and will he say what action he proposes to take?

The Board of Trade have received representations on the subject. The Rule was, however, recently revised at the request of the Department and the Board do not think that they can usefully ask the railway companies to amend it further at present.

48.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the manager of the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Company at Fleetwood engages landsmen presenting themselves for employment on their boats owing to the dispute with the seamen; and will he explain why these men when taken on are given an exemption certificate exempting them from being called up for service under the Military Service Act?

I have no information on this subject, but will make inquiries and inform my hon. Friend in due course of the result.

Enemy Firms

43.

asked whether any manufacturing concerns belonging to enemies in this country have been prohibited or wound-up since the War started; and what are the names of the thirty-seven enemy businesses referred to in the Advisory Committee's Report which are being permitted without interference to continue to trade and make profits during the War?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I am not at present prepared to publish the names of the businesses referred to in respect of which no Order has been made, but I shall be pleased to show the hon. and gallant Member a list of those businesses.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many manufacturing concerns belonging to enemies in this country have been prohibited or wound-up since the War began?

I do not carry the figures in my head. I will supply the hon. Member with them if he desires.

44.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the super visor or controller of an enemy business has any power to control or restrict the profits made by that business in this country during the War; and, seeing that the Trading With the Enemy (Amendment) Act, 1916, limits the authority of the Board of Trade to three specific steps in regard to enemy businesses, namely, prohibition, winding-up, or sale after a vesting in the Public Trustee, will he say-under what authority the Board of Trade have permitted thirty-seven enemy businesses to continue to trade and manufacture in this country in competition with British concerns during the War?

The duties of a supervisor of an enemy business are to see that no trading with the enemy takes place, but he does not restrict the profits made. The powers of a controller appointed by the Court depend on the terms of the Order and, in some cases, he has full control of the conduct of the business. The businesses referred to in the hon. and gallant Member's question have been permitted to continue trading in accordance with Section 1 of the Trading With the Enemy (Amendment) Act, 1916, the Advisory Committee having come to the conclusion, after investigating the circumstances of each case, that for special reasons it was inexpedient to make any Order with regard to those businesses.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say, in reference to the first part of the question, whether an enemy business can make any amount of profit-in this country during the War?

Cadet Corps

45.

asked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the public interest in the physical education of our youth, he will set up a Committee to consider the question of an improved system of physical training in all elementary schools, and the extension of this training to all secondary schools, in the form of the Cadet Corps that are now being so generally established in the county council and other secondary schools throughout the country?

This is one of the questions which will have to be considered as part of the general inquiry into the national system of education which has been announced.

Is it not possible for children to have a thoroughly efficient physical education without the aid of or belonging to Cadet Corps?

Having already appointed two or three Committees on this subject, will the right hon. Gentleman not appoint another Committee to consider this question?

No, Sir. I think the old maxim of the Schoolmen applies—Entia non sunt multiplicanda prœter necessitatem.

Minister Of Commerce

46.

asked the Prime Minister whether it is his intention to appoint a Minister of Commerce; and whether the Government are taking any steps to reorganise and redistribute the duties and work of the Board of Trade, so as to place the country in a better position to deal at once with the new economic conditions created by the War?

Active steps are being taken with a view to placing the Board of Trade in a position to deal effectively with post-war economic and commercial problems. I am not now in a position to go into details, and, as at present advised, I doubt if the object would be furthered by the multiplication of Ministries.

Committee On Production

47.

asked the Prime Minister if he can see his way to add two representatives of Labour to the Committee on Production?

The Committee on Production, as at present constituted, consists of independent persons, and is not intended to be representative of classes or interests. The suggested alteration in its constitution would alter its character, and is not, in my opinion, advisable.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that great discontent exists in many large works on account of lack of understanding by the Committee on Production of questions submitted to them?

When the appointments were made to the Committee on Production was the question of the experience of these men upon these methods taken into consideration?

Does the right hon. Gentleman not see that there are representatives of capital on the Committee—that is to say, men who formerly were engaged looking after the interests of capital—one a late general manager, to give no other illustration—and would not the fact that a representative of Labour was on the Committee be calculated to give more general confidence?

As I have said, I do not think that a Committee of this kind ought to be representative of interests in any sense. The desire is to get the best and most detached minds you can.

German Steamers

49.

asked whether the fifty German steamers obtained by us from Portugal are paid for; and, if so, to whom does the money go and what is the amount per ship per month?

A number of ex-German steamers are being chartered to us by the Portuguese Government at the rate of 14s. 3d. per gross ton per month. We pay all the expenses of running the steamers.

What will happen in the event of these steamers being torpedoed?

No. No arrangement has been made to allow our money to go to Germany in any way.

Beitish Dyes, Limited

50.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been called to the conditions under which men are working at British Dyes, Limited, Huddersfield, a firm which is subsidised by the Government, to the defective state of the sanitary arrangements there for instance, and also to the prevalence of eczema among the men employed in the picric acid department of the firm's works; and whether he will arrange with the Treasury to reduce the Government subsidy unless drastic alterations are made by the firm with the object of improving the conditions under which work is carried on under their management?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to the hon. Member for North Somerset.

Customs Watchers

51.

asked the Secretary to the Treasury if he can state how many Customs watchers are at present employed in the port of London; how many will receive immediate benefit under the new scale of pay recently announced; how many will receive an increase of not more than 1s. per week; whether he is aware that the Customs watchers in the provinces are receiving an immediate advance of from 3s. to 6s. per week, as compared with the limited advance of 1s. to the London men; and whether this is in accordance with the Treasury Regulations as applied to Post Office employés and soldiers' wives, who receive 3s. 6d. per week extra when residing in the London area?

Under the new scale of watchers' pay 249 out of 390 watchers employed in London will receive an immediate benefit, the amount in each case being 1s. a week. Watchers in the provinces, whose pay has now been levelled up to London rate, receive an immediate benefit ranging from 1s. to 4s. a week. I do not think that the facts referred to in the last part of the question affect the decision in the present case.

52.

asked the Secretary to the Treasury if he is aware that the Port of London Customs watchers are in receipt of a weekly wage ranging from 24s. to a maximum of 27s.; if ho is aware that the Port of London Authority has recently granted a further war bonus of 3s., making 6s. since February, 1915; and whether, under these circumstances, he will give favourable consideration to the Customs watchers' petition to be granted a war bonus?

I am afraid that at present I cannot add anything to the reply which I gave to my right hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich on the 27th July. I am sending my right hon. Friend a copy of this reply?

Vaccination

53.

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether, in cases where exemption from vaccination is granted for a child to the mother in the absence of the father on service in the Army, the father remains liable to penalties on his return home; whether his attention has been called to cases in which vaccination officers have threatened soldiers' wives with such penalties against their husbands; and what steps he will take to deter the authorities from using this kind of pressure on the wives of absentee soldiers who desire to keep their children's blood untainted?

My Department has sent a circular letter to all vaccination officers impressing on them that it is their duty to accept, as valid, declarations made by the mother of a child in the father's absence from home on naval or military service. In the case to which the hon. Member has drawn my attention the notices were issued by a temporary vaccination officer, and I have directed that the form of notice shall be amended.

Naval And Military Pensions And Grants

Supelementary Pensioxs

55.

asked the Secretary to the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the case of the widow of Frederick John Howe, driver in the Army Service Corps, who died on the 16th April, 1916, in consequence of gas poisoning whether he is aware that, owing to Mrs. Howe having received no pension or other allowance since her husband's death, three of her five children have had to be sent to the workhouse and almost everything she possessed has been sold; and whether he will give this matter immediate attention and see that the arrears of pension due to her, which amount, approximately, to £35, are promptly paid?

I am making inquiry into this case and will inform my hon. Friend of the result.

56.

asked whether the Statutory Committee intend to pay the supplementary pensions through the local post offices?

The Statutory Committee hope to make satisfactory arrangements with the War Office and Admiralty, so that supplementary pensions may be paid through the local post offices with the State flat-rate pensions.

Discharged Soldiers

73.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the fact that under Section 3 (1) (j) of the Naval and Military War Pensions Act Parliament has placed on the Statutory Committee the duty and responsibility of making provision for the health and training of discharged disabled soldiers, and in view of the importance that suitable medical and surgical provision should be made available without further delay for the large number of men already needing special treatment over and above what the ordinary general practitioner can give, it is to be understood that the £6,000,000 recently promised to that Committee from the Exchequer is to be available towards these purposes or whether the necessary expenditure of the Committee in carrying out this duty is to be provided from the Exchequer in some other mannr; and, if so, how and when?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. It is not the intention that the £6,000,000 (though calculated on the estimated cost of pensions) shall be earmarked to the payment of pensions, and the Statutory Committee will have power to expend it on any other of their statutory functions.

80.

asked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that a man named Peregoy, a wounded soldier, discharged from the 2nd Royal Dublin Fusi Iiers, on 29th October, 1915, has been deprived of portion of his pension, although he at the time of his discharge, with the rank of corporal, being a married man with one child, was entitled to the additional allowance prescribed by the Army Order, August, 1915, namely, corporal 2s. a week and 2s. 6d. a week for each child; and will he say why such deduction was made in his case, and if steps will be taken to have this man's case dealt with in accordance with Regulations?

Inquiry is being made, and my hon. Friend will be informed of the result as soon as possible.

In view of the fact stated in the question, that this man was discharged on the 29th October, 1915, can the hon. Gentleman promise that the matter will be disposed of at a very early date?

Duke Of Sutherland's Gift

58.

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he will issue as a White Paper the particulars and details of the Duke of Sutherland's gift of land for the use of soldiers and sailors?

I hope to be able to satisfy the very natural desire of my Scottish colleagues for full information upon these proposals at an early date.

60.

asked the Secretary for Scotland, with reference to the estate of 12,000 acres gifted by the Duke of Sutherland of which the annual value of the land and shootings is £475 according to the Valuation Roll for 1914–15, whether he can state how much of that annual value is attributable to the land and how much to the shootings?

I have promised to give full information as to the Borgie estate which has been offered to the Crown by the Duke of Sutherland for the settlement of sailors and soldiers on the land. I do not know whether there is any general interest in having a close investigation into the minutiae of valuations. If there be any general desire to enter into such details, it is possible that this separation of values could be made.

Prisons Service (Scotland)

59.

asked whether the wages of second-class warders in Scottish prisons range from 24s. to 32s. weekly; and whether, now that the sovereign is only equal to 12s. in spending power as compared with July, 1914, it is proposed to grant these men a war bonus?

I can only refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave on the 31st of July to my right hon. Friend the Member for the Blackfriars Division of Glasgow.

Correspondence (Censorship)

62.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he will allow letters which the senders desire to keep private from Government Departments to be sent by private messengers?

If the question refers to letters passing within the United Kingdom there would seem no objection, subject to the provisions of Section 34 of the Post Office Act, 1908. But since, as a rule, such letters are not subjected to censorship little advantage would accrue to the senders. If the question refers to letters to and from the United Kingdom, the answer is in the negative. Such a practice would contravene No. 24 of the Defence of the Realm Regulations. Since, moreover, only such trade letters as disclose transactions contrary to the public interest or contain information likely to con- duce to the successful prosecution of the War are passed to the Government Department concerned, the letters in question would probably be just those which it is desired to intercept.

63.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he will arrange to send an intimation to the senders of private letters when these letters have been submitted to a Government Department?

Riyal Dockyards

64.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if it is the intention of the Government to give a fur ther bonus to men employed in the Royal dockyards; and, if so, will he state the amount and from what date the new payment will be made?

Additional temporary war increases have recently been granted in His Majesty's home dockyards and naval establishments, namely, 3s. a week to adult male employés and 1s. a week to apprentices and boys. These increases take effect as from the 23rd July.

65.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the clerical staff in His; Majesty's dock yards will participate in the; new war bonus; and, if that is not to be the case, will he explain the reason for the omission?

No, Sir. The matter is under consideration, but I can give no undertaking respecting it.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this matter has been under consideration almost since the beginning of the War? When will some result be arrived at?

As my hon. Friend knows, more than one Government Department is concerned.

68.

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that the men employed by the Admiralty as yard-craft men have sent in a request for a victualling allowance of 1s. 6d. per day; whether he is aware that this allowance is paid to the crews of hired tugs and the tugs of the Great Western Railway Company; and whether he will take steps to see that consideration is given to what is considered a hardship borne by these men in the trying circumstances of their employment?

A victualling allowance of 1s. 6d. a day was formerly paid as a separate allowance to yard craft men, but was merged in their pay some years ago, that pay being increased by the full amount of the victualling allowance at the time when the change was made. As I informed my hon. Friend yesterday, the conditions of service of the yard craft men have recently been the subject of a most careful review, and they are considered to be just and equitable. I cannot admit that these men are suffering any hardship in not receiving a victualling allowance in addition to their ordinary rate of pay, which, as I say, was some time ago brought up to include pay plus victualling allowance.

86.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether the employés in His Majesty's Gunwharf, Devonport, will be placed in a similar position to the employés in His Majesty's Dockyard, Devonport, with regard to the extra bonus?

Royal Marines

66.

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will, by bearing them as supernumerary to the establishment, grant to all pensioner quartermaster-sergeants, Royal Marines, now serving, the rank of warrant officer, Class II., authorised by Order in Council of November, 1915?

This has now been sanctioned and the necessary instructions are about to be issued.

German Submarine At Temple Pier

67.

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he can make a statement as to the number of persons who were admited to view the captured German submarine at the Temple Pier, the total receipts from the exhibition, and the amount available for distribuion to naval charities?

The total number of people who passed through the turnstile is 302,960, and the total receipts £3,650 15s. 7d. After the necessary expenses of the exhibition have been deducted, the balance remaining will be available for distribution to Naval charities. The account will be got out shortly. The Admiralty are much indebted to the police, the Port of London Authority, and the London County Council, for the trouble which they have taken to make the exhibition a success. I am quite sure also that the public have greatly appreciated the services of the warrant officer in command, and of the chief petty officer and other ratings of the Royal Navy and Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve who were in charge of the vessel, and of the arrangements for admission.

Will the right hon. Gentleman now consider whether this weapon cannot now be put to a more military use?

United National Patriots' Society

69.

asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, whether his attention has been called to the case of the United National Patriots' Society, who at their last meeting decided to discontinue sick pay to all their members who had reached the age of seventy, thus depriving very old members of benefits for which they have been subscribing in some cases for periods of upwards of forty years; and whether the Insurance Commissioners will withdraw their approval of any society that breaks its contract with old members in order to arrive at solvency and attract new members?

I fear that I can add nothing to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member on the 8th instant.

In view of the answer which has been given, and in view of the urgency of this matter, I beg to give notice that I will raise this question on the Motion for the Adjournment to-night.

Dollar Securities

72.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state what steps the holder of a small sum in cited dollar securities can take in order to lend them to the Government, the holder having been informed by the National Debt Office that, as the holding is under 5,000 dollars worth, he must deposit them with his banker or stockbroker; and, seeing that he has neither a banker or stockbroker, whether he will further inquire why this gentleman, having written to the Treasury for information, has not even had his letter acknowledged?

Deposits of less amounts than $5,000 must be made through a banker or broker. I understand that in the case which my hon. Friend has in mind the holder was advised on the 1st August to approach a local bank. I fear I cannot make special arrangements to meet such a case, and the holder was so informed by the Treasury on the 1st August.

Courts-Martial (Public Admission)

87.

asked the Secretary of State for War if he will make inquiries into the circumstances under which the public were excluded from a court-martial held upon Perry Johnson, of the 10th East Surrey Regiment, at Dover Castle, on Tuesday, 8th August; whether he is aware that George Johnson, brother of the accused, Sydney Taylor, a friend of the accused, and Mr. Matson, who represented the accused before the local tribunal, attended together at Dover Castle half-an-hour before the trial was fixed to take place and made repeated applications to be allowed to attend, but that they were sent from one entrance of the castle to another and always refused admission until at last a message came from the court-martial to the effect that the accused wished to call Mr. Matson as a witness; whether he is aware that Mr. Matson was then admitted but the other two were still denied admission, and that Mr. Matson made a protest to the president of the court-martial against the manner in which he and others had been treated; and whether, in view of these circumstances and of many other similar cases in which admission has been refused, he will call the attention of commanding officers to Chapter 5, Section 71, of the Manual of Military Law relating to courts-martial, by which it is provided that the court must be open to the public, military or otherwise, so far as the room or tent in which the court is held can receive them?

I will make inquiries on this matter, but, in the meantime, I will ask my hon. Friend to be good enough not to take me as accepting the allegations contained in the question as correctly representing the facts.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, to my own knowledge, there has been refusal to admit the public to courts-martial?

Territorial Artillery Units

88.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in response to an expressed desire throughout the country, he will make a recommendation that the Territorial Artillery units of the British Army, which have now taken a share in the actual fighting on all our different fronts, in France, in Flanders, and in the Near East, in addition to serving in far distant stations of the Empire, shall now be permitted, like the men in the old Army formations, to use and wear the same motto, Ubique?

The question of extending to Territorial Force units the mottoes and honours borne by corresponding units of the Regular Army could not be considered without reference to all arms, and not merely in reference to the Artillery. This matter has engaged the attention of the Army Council, who are of opinion; that it cannot be settled until after the War, and only in connection with the general question of the future organisation, of the Army.

German Treachery

91.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether' he has received accounts of Germans, after their trenches have been taken, lying hidden in their dugouts and calling out that they were wounded, and when our men went down to help them have murdered our officers and men with bombs and rifle fire; and, if so, whether he can have orders issued to put our officers and men on their guard against such treachery in the future?

I have seen in the Press statements that Germans behave in the manner stated in the first part of the question, but I am not aware that there is any official information to that effect. In any case I think the Commander-in-Chief of the British Armies in France can be trusted to give the necessary orders on a matter of this sort without any intervention from home.

Field Punishment

97.

asked the Secretary of State for War if he will have inquiries made into the case of Gunner W. H. Coulter, No. 40,999, 1st Battery, 1st Brigade, G.F.A., now stationed at Moore Barracks Hospital, Shorncliffe, Kent, who, in November last, was sentenced to forty-two days' first field punishment; if he is aware that this soldier, who is fifty-two years old, was, as part of this sentence, strapped to the gun's wheel from eleven to twelve a.m., and from 3.30 to 4.30 p.m., while the gun was in action; whether this was frequently done when the gun was being bombarded by the enemy; and whether he will say by what court-martial and for what offence this sentence was awarded?

I would ask the hon. Member to supply me with a written statement by this man, which can be held to bear out what the hon. Member alleges in his question.

Jam (Army Contracts)

99.

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office, in regard to the contracts for the supply of jam to the Army whereby the Government pays the cost of the fruit and sugar, will he say what steps are taken to secure control over the prices paid for fruit; what provision is made for the rejection of jam made from bad fruit or unsuitable sugar and what provision is made with regard to the cost of tins and cases?

I would refer the hon. Member to the contract form for the supply of jam, a copy of which is being placed in the Library.

May I ask whether it is-obvious on the face of the contract what steps are taken to secure that the fruit is good, and what provision is there if it turns out to be bad and who is responsible?

I understand it is the Government which purchases the fruit, and if it is bad, who loses?

My hon. Friend will see, I think, by reference to the terms of the contract, that the fruit is bought by the co-operative buying of the firms engaged, and they are not competing one with another for the same fruit. They are buying it on a system of co-operation. The fruit is inspected at the works of the jam makers, and the jam is made under the inspection of Government inspectors, and the jam is inspected when it is delivered.

further asked—

100. At what prices jam of the present season's make is now being manufactured for the Army by the various firms of the selected number of manufacturers among whom the contract has been divided without any competitive outside tender?

No, I do not think it is a strictly military reason. When you have got different firms competing you do not want to publish the prices between one competitor and another.

Is it not the case when the contracts are being dispatched amongst a selected number of firms that the whole reason for secrecy vanishes?

101.

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he will place in the Library a copy of the contract for the supply of jam to the Army which is now being divided among a selected number of manufacturers without any outside competitive tender?

Land Purchase (Ireland)

9.

asked the Chief Secretary whether the maps of the O'Malley and Joyce estate, Rangha, Connemara, have yet been sent to the Congested Districts Board; if he will state whether the landlord of the St. Ledger Higgins estate, Maam, Connemara, has yet accepted the offer made by the Congested Districts Board for purchase; and, if not, will the Congested Districts Board consider the desirability of compulsorily purchasing the estate without further delay, in view of the fact that the tenants are unable to subsist on their present small holdings, and that discontent prevails in consequence?

The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and to the second part in the negative. The Congested Districts Board have been obliged to suspend negotiations for the purchase of any further estates and cannot at present take any steps with a view to the compulsory purchase of the St. Ledger Higgins estate in regard to which their offer has been withdrawn.

Prison Warder's Pay (Ireland)

11.

asked the Chief Secretary whether the Irish prison warders had yet received the increase of pay promised them with retrospective effect; and, if not, can he state when they will receive the promised increment?

I am not yet in a position to add anything to the reply which I gave on the 9th instant to the question of the hon. Member for the Harbour Division of Dublin.

Wrongful Arrest (Aberavon)

25.

asked the Home Secretary whether he will have inquiries made into the circumstances surrounding the arrest, on 4th December last, of Gas Linesman H. Davies, Port Talbot, on a charge of breaking and entering the Aberavon Station Booking Office, of which he was subsequently found innocent and acquitted, another person confessing to being the guilty one; and, in view of the experience Davies had to undergo and the financial loss suffered, whether he will consider if compensation can be granted in this case and an assurance be given that Davies' character is not stained by the proceedings?

It is not possible to give compensation to persons tried and acquitted on criminal charges; but in this case I am glad to find from the report made to me by the police that Mr. Davies was not even tried on the charge. He was only in custody for a few hours before being released on bail. The man subsequently convicted of the offence was arrested on the same day, and as soon as the circumstances had been inquired into the charge against Davies was entirely withdrawn and no stain rests upon his character.

Sheep-Dipping (Devon)

70.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture if he is aware that inconvenience and loss were caused to flockmasters in Devon recently by the neglect to duly advertise the coming into force of the Sheep-dipping (Devon) Order, dated 10th July, 1916; in consequence of this omission, if he is aware that on 6th and 9th August numbers of sheep and lambs were brought to Lydford annual sale and to Tavistock Fair on these dates, but could not be offered for sale because the owners, not being aware of the Order, had failed to have their animals dipped a second time as required by the Order; will he consider the advisability of amending the Order so as to confine its application to sheep that have been kept on common land within the prescribed area, where alone sheep-scab prevails; will he provide that sheep can be moved into the area from healthy districts without conforming to the Order; and will he cause the Order so amended to be duly advertised?

I have received information to the effect given in the first two parts of my hon. Friend's question, though I have none which shows that the local authority whose duty it is to do so neglected to advertise the Order to the best of their ability. In this connection, it must be remembered that local authorities are working with reduced staffs so that it is not possible for the police to pay farmers many special visits for the purpose of informing them of Orders, and also that the farmers themselves have been kept very busy on their farms and many, probably, have had no opportunity of seeing posters, or notices in the papers. With regard to the third part of the question, the Board do not think it advisable to amend the Order, which requires licences to be issued in the case of all sheep going out of the area to which the Order refers, for the reason that the dipping of sheep is only required in the case of those which have been on any moor, common, or unenclosed land, and are not leaving such land for the purpose of slaughter. With regard to the fourth part of the question, the requirements that sheep, which are being moved to a moor, common, or enclosed land, shall be dipped beforehand and that sheep going to other destinations in the prescribed area shall be dipped on arrival at their destination, are made for the purpose of protecting flockowners from the risk of the introduction of sheep-scab into their flocks. The Board do not think it desirable to withdraw this protection. In these circumstances the request made by my hon. Friend in the last part of the question does not arise.

New Writ

Mr. SPEAKER informed the House, That, in accordance with the provisions of the Lunacy (Vacating of Seats) Act, 1886, he had issued his Warrant to the Clerk of the Crown to make out a New Writ for the

April.May.June.July.Total.
Lbs.Lbs.Lbs.Lbs.Lbs.
Tobacco, Imported191512,506,0006,179,0007,722,0008,711,00035,118,000
19165,851,0008,239,0007,739,0007,562,00029,391,000
Tobacco, Home-grown191519,70010,00012,00013,80055,500
191611,10012,90010,900Not yet available.
Tea191535,253,00016,140,00018,329,00023,224,00092,946,000
191615,447,00019,388,00021,104,00018,814,00074,753,000
Cwts.Cwts.Cwts.Cwts.Cwts.
Coffee191540,30023,90019,10018,000101,300
191617,00017,40015,00016,10065,500
Sugar19153,154,0002,392,0002,371,0002,835,00010,752,000
19162,052,0002,485,0002,448,0002,274,0009,259,000

electing of a Member to serve in this present Parliament for the County of York, West Riding, Colne Valley Division, in the room of Charles Leach, Esquire, the seat having become vacant under that Act.

Message From The Lords

That they have agreed to,—

Education (Fee Grant) Bill,

Finance (Exchequer Bonds) Amendment Bill, without Amendment.

Orders Of The Day

Business Of The House

Parliamentary Recess

May I ask the Prime Minister if he will kindly inform us what will be the business for next week?

On Monday we shall continue the Committee stage of the Defence of the Realm (Acquisition of Land) Bill.

On Tuesday we hope to move the Adjournment, and we shall probably have to ask the House to sit on Wednesday for the outstanding business.

I would ask the right hon. Gentleman not to take the Defence of the Realm (Acquisition of Land) Bill on Monday. It is a highly contentious measure, and, rightly or wrongly, a very large number of Members who thought it was not coming on have gone away. There is no urgency about it. It was taken off the Paper for a considerable time and does not appear there to-day. It is a measure which involves very important principles, and. as I have said, is highly contentious.

We only propose to continue the Committee stage on Monday. It has been taken off the Paper because of the number of Amendments and the cost of printing involved.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House an opportunity on Monday for considering the general feeling about a Special Register Bill? It might save difficulty in the future if we consider it in some way.

No. We have had a very general discussion, and we have the Motion for the Adjournment on Tuesday.

When will the Third Reading of the Small Holding. Colonies Bill be taken?

May I draw the attention of the Prime Minister to the fact that there are eighteen pages of Amendments to the Defence of the Realm (Acquisition of Land) Bill? Several hon. Members who are interested in it were under the impression that the Bill would not be taken and have gone away. May I ask that we shall not be compelled to sit beyond eleven o'clock on the Bill? If I may say so, it is a little hard just at end, of the Session to keep us after eleven o'clock on a big Bill like this on which there has been no obstruction. It is a very big Bill, and it has been much altered by the Government, who have admitted that it requires very important and considerable alterations.

If the House agrees to adjourn on Tuesday, can we take the outstanding business on Wednesday?

Dublin Reconstruction (Emergency Provisions) Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

The necessity for this Bill arises out of the unhappy events which occurred in Dublin during Easter week of this year. Many Members, no doubt, are aware that in the central districts and thoroughfares of Dublin and in other parts of the city there is ocular proof of the grievous calamity that was involved to the city of Dublin in the events of Easter week. As to the loss of life, the dislocation on a great scale of business in the city, the deprivation of large numbers of willing workmen of their ordinary means of livelihood, this Bill has nothing to say. The necessity which this Bill deals with is that of taking what has seemed to the Corporation of Dublin and the Local Government Board in Ireland, and, I hope I may say also, after the consultations which have taken place between those who are individually interested in the matter and persona representing the administration in Ireland, to a large number of those who are immediately concerned, the promptest means to provide for the expenditure which can hardly be provided out of the private resources of the owners for the reconstruction of the main parts of Dublin, the establishment of such control as may be necessary to secure that that reconstruction shall be upon a scale and in a manner consistent with the traditions which attach to the almost historic main thoroughfare in Dublin, and also to provide not only that there shall be public control, but that the means which individuals may not be able to provide out of their own resources may, subject to proper security, be available to them in proper cases with safeguards for the security of the Exchequer, so as to make the resources of the Exchequer to a proper amount available for that purpose.

When the calamity to which I referred was a little more recent, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister visited Dublin, and, as he announced here, he informed the people who have suffered most grievous loss and the municipal authorities of the extent to which he would be able to advise the House to authorise Grants, ex gratia, in relief of those very heavy losses. As the House is aware, a Committee, under the chairmanship of Sir William Goulding, has been set up and has been sitting in Dublin, with a view to assisting His Majesty's Government in coming to correct conclusions as to what is the true magnitude of the losses and what is the proportion in which, according to the scale upon which the Treasury has decided, those losses can be, at any rate, partly met out of public funds. But the assistance which can be given out of the Treasury by these ex gratia Grants will leave a very large deficit to be met by the owners of property in these thoroughfares, of which one or two have been absolutely ruined, and others have been devastated to a very considerable extent.

When the magnitude of the calamity in Dublin and the probable position of very numerous owners of property were regarded, it was felt that from some quarter or other it was necessary as a matter of business in the interest of individuals, and very desirable in the public interest, if the rebuilding of Dublin was to proceed upon a proper plan and with promptitude, that some means should be devised by which, with due regard to the security of the Exchequer, money by way of loan might be rendered available to the people whose properties have been destroyed. I may pause for a moment to remind the House that on the very numerous occasions during the lifetime of the oldest Member of this House the Irish borrower of money from the Exchequer has been an honest borrower, and has practically invariably repaid the loan. There was one leading thoroughfare in the main business quarter and numerous other areas in Dublin where there has been very serious damage, and it was inevitable that the Corporation of Dublin, if they had regard to their obligations to the ratepayers and to the citizens, should take account of their position in relation to the situation in which Dublin was placed, and should propose some means by which anything in the nature of eccentricity in the reconstruction of premises in the damaged areas, and anything in the nature of a tendency to leave ruined premises lying in ruins, should be kept under control. It was necessary also that the corporation should be ready, if the municipal authority were to take control with regard to these matters to any considerable extent, to pledge the resources of the city, the property of the corporation, and the rates of the city as a security for these advances to citizens which they were to undertake, subject to the control of the Local Government Board in Ireland, to distribute. There were two matters, the matter of public aid and the matter of some kind of local control. The corporation took that view of their public duty which I think any man acquainted with municipal life would expect them to take. Taking that view, they put themselves into communication with the Local Government Board in Ireland, and the outcome of that communication was the drafting of the Bill of which I am moving the Second Reading.

4.0 P.M.

There are certain main requisites if aid is to be distributed from public funds by the instrumentality of the Corporation of Dublin or otherwise. The first main requisite is prompt action. I spoke of what had happened materially and otherwise to Dublin as a calamity. That calamity will be aggravated if there is not prompt action to deal with the state of things which exists. It is not merely an eyesore when you pass through Sackville Street to-day; it goes much deeper than that. While I have had the advantage of being in Dublin during the last few days, there have been present delegates from the great Colonies, and every, citizen in these Islands would have given much that some of the sights they saw should not have been present before their eyes. But promptitude is a necessity, and, not merely from the point of view which I have mentioned, but from the point of view of repairing, at the earliest possible date, material damage, loss of business, loss of wages, dislocation of affairs in the city. In the drafting of this Bill a great deal was left to local action which would ordinarily have been submitted to Parliament. Here it is desirable above all things that promptitude should be secured. Besides prompt action, if there is to be the provision of public money to any considerable extent, there must be public control. What that public control ought to be has been a matter of considerable conflict between the Corporation of Dublin and the owners of property and estates. Later in my observations I shall be able to tell the House what has taken place upon that subject. To my great satisfaction I have found, in regard to the degree of public control, there was no insuperable difficulty in arriving at an arrangement between the public interests represented by the corporation and the private interests represented by the several owners. It is obvious that there must be public control extending to some reasonable extent both as to the erection of buildings and to the non-erection of buildings, both as to the replacing of business premises and other structures upon sites where there are to-day ruins, and the possibility of those sites being left in the ruins. It must extend to some other matters. On the question of advances of money out of public funds for which the Corporation of Dublin has been ready to become answerable, there must obviously be public control in this sense—that the Local Government Board and those who are answerable to Parliament for the proper dealing with public funds shall see that moneys are not dispensed in Dublin in regard to these matters, and compensation paid, except upon terms which will secure that the Exchequer is reasonably safeguarded.

For the purpose of securing promptitude the Corporation of Dublin takes the view, and the Local Government Board in Ireland, which, I believe, has not been a very lenient critic of the doings of local authorities in Ireland, has not been so indifferent to the propriety of their conduct that it can be accused of any undue sympathy with local aspirations, agreed with the Corporation of Dublin, subject, of course, always to the consent of Parliament, that it was very desirable, if there were such questions as the planning of new streets, the expropriation of owners from portions of their premises in the public interest, and questions of the expropriation of owners who would not utilise their sites, if practicable in the circumstances of the case, and having regard to the existing emergency, to dispense with the ordinary steps of a Provisional Order and seek Parliamentary powers. That, of course, is a very bold proposal. It led to difficulties which I shall mention in a moment. With regard to public control, the Local Government Board assented to the proposal of the corporation that the appeal from the corporation in regard to the matter of public control should be an appeal to the Local Government Board. The Local Government Board, in the Bill as it was drafted, was put in a position to sanction a proposal or a decision of the corporation or to refuse sanction. In regard to a security for the Treasury there was no step in the transaction, from the application for the loan to the examination of the title and the decision as to the amount which might be advanced, in which the corporation was not ready to submit every one of its acts to the supervision and ultimate control of the Local Government Board.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up!"]—does the national control apply to the compensation paid out of public funds?

I was coming to that matter, but I can deal with it at once. The payment of ex gratia compensation out of public funds rests with His Majesty's Government. What has happened has been that the Committee to which I referred has been appointed to inquire and report. It is the business of the Government, and I take it in the first instance the Irish Office, to examine the facts and reports, and to decide what is the method to be adopted, and upon what conditions the payment should be made. This Bill does not deal with the question of these ex gratia payments. This Bill takes up the case on the footing that there are ex gratia payments, and, assuming ex gratia payments, it proceeds to deal with the question of how the owner, who is left with perhaps 30, 40, 50, or 60 per cent, of his loss to provide, is to be helped in the public interest, and in particular in the interests of Dublin, so to provide. That is the stage at which this Bill takes up this matter. I referred to the question of control proposed in the Bill. It was made a Local Government Board control by the authors' of this Bill, not out of any wilful disregard to the rights of private owners, and not out of any conceited view that the Corporation of Dublin plus the Local Government Board might at all times be trusted to do everything in order. That course was resolved upon, so far as the draftsmen of this Bill were concerned, from the view that the emergency is a pressing emergency and that the necessity for prompt action is urgent.

The House may ask, What will be the nature of the control? For the purpose of that control the corporation were, as I have said, ready to pledge the public resources of the City of Dublin. The Local Government Board, I am glad to say, agreed with them that the securities which were there taken for safeguarding the rights and interests of private owners, as well as safeguarding public rights, were securities for which, in an emergency, it was not impossible to suppose Parliament would confer the necessary powers. In Dublin, as in other places, there are capable business men who take firm and determined views about their rights and interests. Where you have on one hand public interests and corporate interests, and on the other private rights, and a departure from the ordinary course of dealing with private rights, it is perhaps too much to anticipate that there will be an immediate reconciliation of the rights of private owners with the wishes and expectations of those who have charge of public interests. It would be idle to ignore the fact that a good deal of conflict has arisen between the Corporation of Dublin and certain owners in Dublin, persons directly and materially interested in the ruined areas, in regard to the de- parture in this Bill from the safeguards-of private interests which are usually found in a Bill dealing with the subject. That related especially to the taking of land and the imposition of schemes of building. It related also to setting up by-laws and the application of them: sanction in the case of an appeal to the Local Government Board where private rights are dealt with, and by that same sanction dispensing with the sanction which in the ordinary course is obtained by means of a Provisional Order. A conflict arose first in regard to the question of laying out new streets, and the reconstruction of streets which would necessitate the compulsory acquisiton of land. What was complained of was that there was no recourse to Parliament. So far as His Majesty's Government is concerned, it is ready to deal with that complaint by leaving the Order of the Local Government Board in regard to these matters, and especially in regard to questions of street planning and the laying out of new streets—the matters which arise in Section 1 of the Bill—as a Provisional Order, and leaving the parties, or any owner who thinks himself aggrieved, to come to Parliament and to raise the question. I trust that the spirit which has been shown in dealing with other difficulties in regard to this Bill, and which has enabled me to announce what I have announced in regard to Clause 1, will continue to be shown in regard to differences which may arise and that resort to Parliament will not be needed.

Who will promote that Provisional Order—the, private owner at his own expense?

No. The Order of the Local Government Board will go forward in the ordinary course as a Provisional Order. It will be a Provisional Order introduced in the Bill by the Local Government Board. All those steps by which a person objecting would be bound in the ordinary course would be still open, subject to this: that the view which I take, and the view which, I believe, His Majesty's Government is ready to act upon is, that there shall not be the delay which, in the ordinary course, would follow by adopting Provisional Order procedure, and which, in the present case, would probably mean a delay of eighteen months, but that, when the matter has been thrashed out by a local inquiry in Dublin, and the Local Government Board has made such an Order as it is prepared to do, after the matter has been fully and freely discussed, it shall, so far as the Government can afford facilities for the purpose of it being brought complete to this House, be so brought. The ordeal of inquiry in a Private Bill Committee, if there are objectors, and it is necessary to take that step, will still be open. The course proposed is proposed as a course that will save eighteen months. The corporation greatly desired, and the Local Government Board agreed, that, if possible, the expenditure of public money upon litigating questions such as arise when public interests and the rights of individuals conflict in questions that come before a Private Bill Committee, should be avoided. I have some confidence that the business men who are concerned, and the corporation who are interested as custodians of the public interest in Dublin, will take care, if it is humanly possible, that they come to an agreement in regard to the Order, and do not have to come here or anywhere else for the purpose of prolonging inquiries which must involve expense. That is an Amendment which can be made, and which, I take it, will be tendered to the House in regard to the proposals for town-planning.

The other questions which arise are questions as to the making of by-laws, questions as to the application of them, questions of compensation where private rights are infringed, and the remaining questions which spring out of the application of Section 4 of the Bill which enables the Corporation, if there is undue delay in the erection of premises upon one of these ruined sites, to take action with a view to making the premises and site available. For such a purpose as that to which I have referred, the Bill proposes that the appeal should be to the Local Government Board. It is common knowledge among those who have been interested in this matter, at a time when it was thought there might be a free grant of public money for the purpose for which it is here proposed there should be a loan there was the view taken that there should be an absolutely independent authority which should deal with all these contentious matters. In view of the fact that the Corporation of Dublin is to pledge the property of the ratepayers of Dublin as security for loans to be made on its application, it is hardly to be expected that the Dublin Corpora- tion would part entirely with the control in matters such as those included in the class of topics to which I have referred. On the other hand, the Corporation have not been obstinate. They discussed frankly, and with much public spirit, the question of whether, in the interests of the city, it was not possible to find some intermediate course between the establishment of an independent authority and the mere act of the corporation sanctioned by the Local Government Board. The corporation is willing, and the Government propose to amend the Bill in this sense. The corporation is willing that, in lieu of the appeal to the Local Government Board upon questions of the reasonable and fair application of any by-laws which may be sanctioned by the Local Government Board dealing with properties which are here in question, and upon the other topic of the reasonableness of a ready, prompt, and strict enforcement of any rights that may be given to the corporation to acquire sites which might become derelict, the appeal shall not be to the Local Government Board, but that there shall be constituted a body of, perhaps, three representing one body of interests, and three representing the interests of the ratepayers, and perhaps with a neutral chairman, which shall promptly deal with these matters, which shall have the consideration of the whole of these questions which arise, and shall be able to deal with them in a consistent manner, but which shall also be able to give to the citizens of Dublin the advantage of promptitude, which I regard as essential and indispensable in this case, and so will take the questions of individual controversy out of the realm of controversy and bring them to a prompt settlement.

In order that we may quite understand where we are, may I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman whether he means that all those questions affecting by-laws, sites, and the opening of new streets, shall, in the first case, be initiated by this mixed tribunal, that then the appeal shall lie to the Local Government Board, and afterwards, if necessary, to Parliament? Are those the three courses?

My hon. and learned Friend does not quite apprehend my view about this. My hon. and learned Friend put the case of by-laws, the case of planning, and the case of the application of planning. The by-laws will be sanctioned in the ordinary course. It is proposed that they shall be sanctioned in the ordinary course after the whole hearing by the Local Government Board. Let me make it quite clear. By-laws will be drafted, I take it, by advisers of the corporation. They will then be presented for sanction. The Local Government Board will publish the draft and will fix the time for the hearing. The whole matter will be thrashed out, so that there will be no decision of the Board without full consideration of the questions which arise. It is no departure from ordinary constitutional methods. With regard to the second point, town planning and the planning of streets, there will be what there is at the present time, the right to come to Parliament, because there will be no town-planning scheme, no scheme for new streets or widening, or anything of that kind, which involves the expropriation of private rights except by an Order which will be dealt with in the manner indicated—that is, an Order which will be provisional and will not take final effect until confirmed by this House.

That is a proposed new provision. It is obvious there could be no progress on the way to peace in this matter unless those who were interested—and both parties have behaved very reasonably—should be ready to find some way out of conflict and difficulty. The other two questions are the application of the by-laws. For instance, there is a bylaw which gives power to prohibit a building which is manifestly unfit. Supposing a man proposes to erect a shanty or a pig-stye in some conspicuous position, which would be an abuse of private right, in such a case as that the decision of the corporation would not be the final decision. In whatever appeals are necessary to the tribunal of disinterested people, they would say whether, under the circumstances, the proposed application of the by-law was a reasonable application, or whether it was an abuse of the by-law. In the same way, with regard to questions under Section 4, it might be manifest that a man was obstructively keeping a derelict site, and the question of reasonableness, it is proposed, should be referred to the same tribunal. I hope those are the matters which my hon. and learned Friend desires I should clear up.

What will the mixed tribunal, consisting of persons outside the corporation, decide?

I tried to make it clear that it will decide, under the by-law, whether the proposed application of the by-law in the particular case is a reasonable application of it or an abuse of it.

My right hon. Friend talked about owners of property acting unreasonably and matters of that kind. Supposing it was a case in which the corporation was insisting upon a man doing something which he thought unreasonable, is that a matter which might come before this tribunal?

Yes. The whole question of the application of the by-law in the particular instance will be a matter upon which the individual owner may appeal, not to the Local Government Board as the Bill provided, but to the independent authority which will be constituted in a manner to secure public confidence. Upon that appeal to the independent authority, there will be the decision as to whether the individual is unreasonable or whether the corporation is unreasonable.

I understand my right hon. and learned Friend is dealing with a provision which is intended to be inserted in the Bill. I want to ask him whether in relation to those orders, so far as town planning and design are concerned, there is any intention of bringing into the authority, either in an advisory character or as part of the authority, experts in the matter of town planning and design? Will there be any advice heard from any artistic bodies such as the Institute of Architects?

My impression on that subject is that the proper course, and the most advantageous course, would be that the by-laws should be framed with due regard to the public interest and private rights, and then with regard to other matters, such as those to which my hon. Friend refers, any question of conflict which arises shall be thrashed out before independent people. On questions of taste and matters of that kind it will be open to those who think it necessary to contest them to present to the independent tribunal, which I hope will be a competent tribunal, such information as it ought to have in order that it may be seen whether there are extravagant proposals on the one hand, or, on the other hand, whether what is proposed is manifestly reasonable and proper in the common interest. I will try to deal with what I think is in my hon. Friend's mind. If you have a scheme set up which involves the creation of a Regent Street or some thoroughfare on the scale of some great thoroughfares on the Continent, and the by-laws are framed with that object, the public inquiry would deal with those bylaws, and I do not myself entertain any doubt that the citizens of Dublin, the very active gentlemen whom I have had the advantage of meeting on this matter, would take care that not only the question of private interests, but the question of public taste and public interest was fully thrashed out before those by-laws were sanctioned.

What was in my mind was exactly the opposite. What I am much more afraid of than any attempt to build a Regent Street in Dublin is the introduction of mean streets. What I want to know is, if the plan as passed under the Schedule appears to the public at large as being utterly inartistic and unworthy of the city, whether they would have: any means of bringing that opinion to bear?

I would respectfully suggest that on the general question it would be well to secure the support of the Plans Committee of the corporation. Unless the people who object to buildings which the corporation are prepared to sanction are ready to provide the cost of better buildings, I do not really know on what evidence we shall go if we are to make the taste of individual citizens of Dublin a possible criterion. There must be some middle course in this matter if you are to have a practical scheme.

I have dealt with the matter of the bylaws and the application of them, and any possible demand for the expropriation of an owner who might be thought to be obstinately delaying the utilisation of a site. There is a great question outstanding as to which, up to the present time, it has not been possible to find a solution, not because of any unwillingness, but because time has been very short, and it has not been practicable to come to a conclusion; it is the question of the right to compensation and the amount of com- pensation. There is also bound up with that the question of what is to be the authority to decide whether there is an infringement of private rights which has caused loss and what is the amount to be paid. The owners and the corporation are at variance about that question, and some time has elapsed without their coming to a conclusion. The view of the Government is that another six weeks-spent now on the road of agreement may avoid many months of conflict subsequently. If in that time the parties are not agreed as to what the right tribunal should be, I am inclined to think that the Government may have to deal with the matter upon the footing that an independent person, nominated by the Local Government Board, is a very usual authority to decide compensation, and that the amount of compensation, having regard to the facts, might properly be said to be the actual amount of the loss caused by destruction. It may be that the parties will between themselves relieve the Government and the Irish Office of any necessity for further considering that question. I hope that they will come to a reasonable settlement about it, just as they have shown themselves ready to do so upon the other questions to which I have referred.

I ought not to say that there have been negotiations on the part of the corporation or the property owners. They have frankly confided their views to a disinterested intermediary, and it is the result of these conferences I am now proposing to the House. That is the state of things with regard to this Bill. The immediate question for us now is what ought to be done with the Second Reading, This is a Bill which has secured on its main principles a large measure of assent in regard to those immediately interested, owners as well as public authorities. The necessity of aid from public sources for the reconstruction of these streets being admitted, and it also being admitted that this is a necessity which can only be dealt with if there is public control, what I propose to do now is to move the Second Reading, and afterwards I shall propose that the question of the Committee to which the Bill shall be committed shall not be decided to-day, but shall stand over until as early a period after the Adjournment as is practicable, and then if any serious differences remain outstanding between private owners and the corporation we might consent to refer the Bill to a Select Committee, which I believe, in the ordinary course, would deal with a Bill of this kind, and we should then be in a position in which the parties need only present to that Select Committee those matters of difference which are outstanding. It is a waste of the money of individuals that is at stake, and I think it is far better that £5,000 should be spent in making a good house; a good block of premises, or a better block of buildings in Sackville Street than that £5,000 should go into the hands of the members of any profession, however deserving, for the purposes of a great fight between the corporation and the property owners. That is the position The necessity for aid undoubtedly exists. The Corporation of Dublin is ready to pledge the public resources of the city and to meet the case of the owners on the main questions, as to the degree of control there ought to be in these matters. There is a disagreement about one comparatively small matter, but I cannot call it unimportant because it is a matter of money, but I hope that difficulty will be removed, and I trust that this Bill may eventually go through all its stages unopposed. I ask for the Second Reading now in order that progress by consent may be made during the Adjournment, and in order that any disagreements may be solved in the least expensive way.

The right hon. Gentleman has introduced to the House a Bill which we have not yet seen, and it is quite plain that the artillery directed against the Bill in its original form has effectively disposed of that measure as it was first introduced. I congratulate the Chief Secretary on the progress he has made in this matter since he took office. I can assure him that in this matter both sides, whatever their feelings may be in politics, have absolute confidence in him. I would like to ask why is a Bill necessary to deal with loans, when no Bill has been introduced to deal with grants? I think that is a House of Commons question.

It was necessary to have a Bill because the rates of the Corporation of Dublin could not be made available for the purpose of guaranteeing the loans which will probable become necessary, except with the consent of the Corporation of Dublin, and that consent might have been withheld if they had not been allowed anything to say as to the manner in which the money was going to be expended.

The main objection we feel is the property owners being put under the control of the Dublin Corporation. Let the House remember this: Yesterday this House was engaged in considering an electoral question dealing with Parliament. Some hon. Members said this House was effete, and that hon. Members did not represent their constituencies. The same matter arises in regard to the Dublin Corporation. All the offices that have become vacant have been filled by co-option. In this connection let me point out that some of the best and the most public-spirited members of that corporation have either been shot, sent to penal servitude, or they are in internment camps. I believe two members of the corporation have been shot, and I know that three or four more are in internment camps. These men would have been the critics of the so-called present majority in the corporation, and although they may be men of extreme views, I am sure they would have been the very men whom the Conservatives of the City of Dublin would rely upon by reason of their tendency to prevent anything in the nature of jobbery or waste.

Probably that seems to many hon. Members an extraordinary situation, but this House never will understand our country. You have a corporation which is practically in the same position as this House of Commons. There is no fresh material in it, and whenever a vacancy occurs the existing majority proceed to co-opt a man of its own. What would be said here of this House if we had been co-opting our own Members in the course of the last eighteen months? What a menagerie this place would have, become. I am not in opposition to the Dublin Corporation in normal times, and I must not be taken as throwing discredit of any kind upon the management of that corporation's business. I do say, however, that in the present state of things if there was an election in Dublin to-morrow, three-quarters of the present members of the Dublin Corporation would disappear. I may say that I have looked for a resolution of that body warranting the introduction of this Bill, and I believe I am right when I say that the Corporation of Dublin, as a corporation, never approved of this Bill before it was introduced, and has not approved of it after it has been introduced. Therefore the property owners are entitled to say that a few busybodies in the corporation—I do not care to further express myself on the subject—have put this Bill forward as representing the corporation. I am entirely with the Chief Secretary in endeavouring to find a solution in this case, but this must be remembered. The destroyed buildings in every case are shops. Delay is fatal to the business of a shop, and how yon can blend the necessity for æsthetic consideration with the necessity of commerce is more than I can understand. These shopkeepers want to get on with their business: they wish to resume their trade, and although I am speaking for them to-day I may say that half of them at least are men who are Unionists in politics. As a rule, I have rather been on the side of the corporation, but I may say that the devastation which has fallen upon the city of Dublin has made all men brethren there, and if we could eliminate the element of what I will call personal selfishness on the part of one or two members of the corporation, I have no doubt a tribunal could be arrived at which would give satisfaction to the general body of the citizens.

The right hon. Gentleman admitted that he could not make up his mind as to what Committee this Bill should be sent. In other words, it will not get to this Committee for the next six weeks or two months. Meanwhile, these wretched shopkeepers are walking about the city with their hands in their pockets and their trades and businesses destroyed. What has brought about the delay? It is the desire on the part of certain individuals on the corporation to have control and to lend money on the security of the rates. I protest against that, and I say that there is no necessity whatever for it. There is not a shopkeeper in Dublin who cannot go to a bank just as easily as he could go to the corporation and borrow any money that he requires. There is no necessity to pledge the rates of the city in this case. Furthermore, you are compelling him to borrow at the very highest point of the market, whereas if the War terminated in two or three years' time you might expect to get cheaper money and the bank rate of these shopkeepers to diminish. Therefore, so far from regarding this Bill as a boon and a blessing, I regard it as a blister, and I say that it is not required. I beg Tory Members and others who may be opposed to the idea of loans not to think that we have come to the Government craving for this Bill. Men like myself do not want this Bill at all. We regard it as a hindrance. The Government have faithfully kept the pledge given by the Prime-Minister. It has been fully discharged by setting up Sir William Goulding's Committee. That absolutely redeemed the pledge which the Prime Minister gave, and it is super-sensitiveness on his part to say that in addition we require a Bill of this kind. We really want some body that will blend on the one hand the necessity for æsthetic considerations, and on the other hand will give out the money which Sir William Goulding's Committee is giving to the shopkeepers, so that building may be started at once. In six weeks' time we shall practically be in the winter months, which are most unsuitable for building, and, having lost the whole of the summer, you will be practically putting the matter off until next spring. Meanwhile, the workpeople and shopkeepers will be walking about absolutely idle.

I have not touched upon an aspect of the Bill to which I am bound to refer. The making of new streets is practically an impossibility. So far as the main part of the ravaged city is concerned, it is absolutely impossible. Sackville Street is the widest thoroughfare in Europe, and, therefore, you do not want a new street made there. The Quays—those parts which have been destroyed — you cannot widen, because you have the river to contend with. Therefore, you reduce the ambit within which a new street is possible to two streets, namely, Earl Street, which has been destroyed, and Henry Street. It is true that the streets are narrow, but the shopkeepers want them narrow, because every successful street in Europe is a narrow street. Take Bond Street, in London. It is a narrow street. Would the shopkeepers of Bond Street, in London, consent to the widening of that street? Why, you would cut their throats. A shopping street is one in which ladies want to go quickly from one side to the other and to be attracted and tempted. That is the value of the narrow street. In the same way the best shopping street in Dublin is a narrow street. Grafton Street is the Bond Street of Dublin. These shopkeepers say, "It is all very fine to try and create a Piccadilly Circus, or some such street as you have in your mind, but we have succeeded in these narrow streets, and we do not see why the misfortune of a rebellion, which has destroyed our business and ruined our shops and houses, should imperil our prospects in the future because of a fad on the part of some members of the corporation, which to some extent is an effete body, and the æsthetic views which they have. Give up this idea of widening Earl Street and Henry Street, and, if you give that up, the necessity for all the powers which the corporation are seeking in this Bill disappears. Sir William Goulding's Committee is going to provide the money, and the necessity for a loan disappears.

The only remaining thing which is wanted is a body which will prevent what the right lion. Gentleman has just called a shanty being erected where there was formerly a noble structure. The existing by-laws of the corporation are already adequate for that purpose. I remember very well that forty years ago it used to be complained that the corporation had no such powers, but they have got them now. They are carefully used, and the officials who have control of this matter are excellent officials. What else remains? Nothing remains. This Bill is wholly unnecessary. We have not even been told what was the amount of money which it was expected that the corporation would have to borrow. I object to a single staling being put upon the ratepayers of Dublin for any such purpose as this Bill suggests. I object to it altogether. The rebellion in Dublin was a Government connived at rebellion. It was the rebellion of Sir Matthew Nathan and his political friends who deliberately allowed the rebellion to come to a head after they had got notice, notice, and notice days in advance of the intention to create disturbance in the city. They deliberately held their hands because they thought that it was going to be a small business involving only the death of four or five people. It is your rebellion; it is not our rebellion. It is the Nathan rebellion. I say so deliberately. I have said it before and I say it again. It was a monstrous thing to constitute a Committee, as you did, of three men, ignorant, so far as our country is concerned—Lord Hardinge, Mr. Justice Shearman, and the other gentleman whose name I have forgotten—to go over and probe into matters that would require thirty years' experience of Ireland to understand.

The pledge of the Prime Minister has been faithfully kept by the appointment of Sir William Goulding's Committee. What will be the effect of passing this Bill? It is intended to give £250,000 or £750,000— I do not know which is the right sum; I had expected that the right hon. Gentleman would have stated it—and you are going to put that £750,000 loan on to the overburdened ratepayers of Dublin, including these very shopkeepers, so that their houses may be beautified in some special manner, involving increased valuation, with increased rates and increased Income Tax, all out of their own pockets. It is feeding the dog with a bit of its own tail. The effect will be this: Sir William. Goulding's Committee, as in everything else, has got one Irishman and two Englishmen on it. It has got two London fire assessors. I think that is the right word. These fire assessors have been appointed by the Treasury, and, of course, as is their duty, they wish to confine and cut down the loss which will fall upon the Treasury to the very smallest amount at which they can compute it. Pass this Bill and tell these British fire assessors who are a majority on the Committee that £750,000 is going to be shouldered by the ratepayers of Dublin, and I venture to say that they will cut down their Grants three-quarters. That is our experience of the Treasury. This is a Bill to throw three-quarters of a million on the citizens of Dublin, and to that extent it is in ease of the British Treasury. This Bill therefore, so far from being a fulfilment of the pledge of the Prime Minister, is rather an incision upon it; it is nibbling at the pledge.

There is one thing wanting. You want legislation which will provide that the money which the Treasury is going to grant shall be expended on the site. That is absolutely necessary, because, as at present advised, a man might get £50,000 from the Goulding Committee and he might go off to America with it, if the Government gave him a passage. There is no provision whatever that this money, once granted, shall be laid out upon the site. That provision is missing from the Bill, and I am rather surprised that the right hon. Gentleman, the delicacy of whose position I fully recognise, did not advert to that state of affairs. The first amendment necessary is that money given by the Government shall be laid out in bricks and mortar. That is absolutely essential. The next essential is that there should be something in the nature of an approach to what I may call the corporation position. The corporation, whatever its defect for the moment may be, is justly entitled to have some say as to the character of the buildings that are to be erected. If anybody can show me that in these by-laws which I have here an amendment is necessary, I will gladly assent to it, but I would respectfully demur from the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion and say that is not the best solution. I will give him a suggestion.

The proposal is not that private owners shall come for a Provisional Order, but that the Order of the Local Government Board on the decision of the corporation shall be a Provisional Order and that the private owner, if he is discontented, may oppose its confirmation.

5.0 P.M.

Let me make this suggestion: We have had three stages, as shown by Statute, in the taking of land. I take, for instance, the Labourers Act. You first had your local inquiry; next there was an apeal to the Privy Council; and then you came to Parliament. We were forced, the Local Government Board were forced, and the Conservative party were forced, to drop the appeal to Parliament because of its expense. I remember once, in the county of Waterford, an owner objecting to a Mass path being taken from him, and the whole question of a Mass path is a short right-of-way to go to church on Sunday. Because a Noble Lord objected to it, it had to be discussed here thirty years ago, with the result that the expenditure was so great that we abolished Parliament in connection with the taking of land. The next stage was that we substituted the Irish Privy Council for Parliament, and gave that Parliamentary power. That was even then too expensive. The labourers objected, and said that the Privy Council consisted of persons none of whom were of their own class, and did not give them sufficient consideration; and the Privy Council was dropped. Accordingly, now the appeal lies, and lies only, to the County Court judge. In this case of Dublin, what I would suggest is this: The present Recorder of the city regards himself as the city judge, and I think quite properly. The corporation own, repair, and beautify his Court in Green Street, and I have always heard him say that he was most fairly treated by the corporation, and he regards himself as the corporation judge. The citizens, as a body, also have confidence in him, and between the corporation and the citizens I believe the present Recorder of Dublin would be regarded as the person whose view might fairly be accepted. He is an old citizen of Dublin, and I, for my part, would be quite willing that the appeal from the Local Government Board should lie to the Recorder of Dublin in case that conflict arose. To put upon us the additional delay of coming here to Parliament involving us in counsel, and all the questions of Standing Orders, I think, would be to place an intolerable burden and knapsack on the shoulders of these burnt-out shopkeepers.

I must remind the hon. and learned Gentleman that the proposal to reserve the right to come to Parliament was the proposal of owners of property themselves.

With respect, I must say that the owners of property do not know as much about coming to Parliament as I do. No doubt it will operate in one sense. I quite see their point—it is like the warnings on the fields, "Keep off the Grass,"—"Trespassers will be prosecuted."

Royal Assent

Whereupon the Yeoman Usher of the Black Rod, having come with a Message to attend the Lords Commissioners, Mr. Speaker left the Chair.

The House went, and having returned,

reported the Royal Assent to:

  • 1. Finance (Exchequer Bonds) Amendment Act, 1916.
  • 2. Special Commissions (Dardanelles and Mesopotamia) Act, 1916.
  • 3. Elementary Education (Fee Grant) Act, 1916.
  • 4. Clayton Aniline Company, Limited (Railways) Act, 1916.
  • 5. Conway and Colwyn Bay Joint Water Supply Board Act, 1916.
  • 6. Newcastle-upon-Tyne and Gateshead Gas Act, 1916.
  • Dublin Reconstruction (Emergency Provisions) Bill

    (resuming): In reference to what the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Duke) said, that the provision to come to Parliament was suggested as coming from property owners, I beg him to remember that that was on the understanding that this Bill was likely to pass as a whole, and if the Bill was to pass as a whole that would be a very proper safeguard. What I am limiting myself to is the suggestion of a scheme dealing with the beautification of the city, and that alone, minus this provision of borrowing from the rates. If this provision disappears, then there will be very little fear that anyone will have to resort either to Parliament or anywhere else by way of appeal from the corporation. I have practically dealt with most of the points that arise. I regard this Bill as a snare held out by the Treasury to induce the citizens of Dublin to shoulder a burden which should fall upon the Treasury itself. I regard the fact that there is not some mention in the Bill of the manner in which the ratepayers of Dublin are to be burdened as a very grave matter. I regard this Bill being introduced in defiance of the Standing Orders without the usual notices as deplorable. Four months have elapsed since the rebellion. In that four months, if the Corporation of Dublin had any general scheme for the beautification of the city or the widening of the streets, there was ample time for them to have prepared the plans. Ordinarily, when you are taking the property of the subject, you must lodge the plans of the land you propose to take. No suggestion has been thrown out by the corporation as to whose property or whose houses it is proposed should be taken. There has been nothing in the shape of a plan drawn up, yet this Bill has been introduced by the Government. Furthermore, whereas if, in the ordinary course, a corporation is about to spend money on a particular scheme or even to come to Parliament for a Bill it has to comply with the Borough Funds Act, and the citizens have to be assembled and have to approve of the Bill under that Act. Here all those protections which the ratepayer has against his property being burdened have disappeared, because the Government have introduced this as a public Bill when upon its face and in every lineament it is, in fact, a Bill of a private character. Ought the Government, therefore, at a time when no register exists, when the body itself is stale and there is even no chance of holding a ward election to test the feeling of the public, to have stepped in with this proposal and to have thrown a burden of £750,000 upon the citizens of Dublin which, in fact, ought to be borne by the Treasury itself?

    I can only say that of recent years we have had good ground of suspicion in regard to those who have been appointed as Under-Secretaries from the financial point of view. The late Under-Secretary clearly was sent over in order to swindle Ireland over the details of the Home Rule Bill. That was the mission he had, and it was in that light that he was regarded. He has disappeared. If the Sinn Fein revolt did nothing else but get rid of him, I would not say it was a revolt in vain. It is an ill wind that blows nobody any good, and the wind that blew him back across the Channel was certainly not an ill wind so far as Ireland is concerned. This Bill is the Bill of his successor, Sir Robert Chalmers, one of the keenest Treasury officials as far as concerns trying to exact money from the Irish people and to relieve the Treasury of its obligations. In this year Ireland's taxes have been increased from £10,000,000 to £22,000,000 for the purposes of the War, but whereas in England the thousands of millions being spent are very largely going to the pockets of Englishmen, of the £22,000,000 of Irish taxes 1 doubt if £1,000,000, or at the most £2,000,000, will be spent in that country. Whatever is necessary under this Bill, as this revolt arose out of the state of war and was an additional infliction upon us of the War condition and as our taxes have been more than doubled, I suggest it would be only reasonable that the pledge given by the Prime Minister should be implemented solely by a Grant. If that is done, then the King's High Planner, of whom we have heard, will be able to come over to Dublin and give us Royal views upon architecture and adornment, and he or his substitute will be cheerfully welcomed, because if the Government is going to provide the money it is only right that they should, to some extent, be allowed to call the tune. I protest in the strongest way I can against the £750,000 being flung upon the ratepayers of Dublin by a body which has not had the opportunity of going to its constituents, in regard to which there is no register to enable an election to take place, and against imposing upon the property owners a delay in dealing with their affairs and businesses which is wholly unnecessary and which can be avoided if they are allowed to do as they ought to do, namely, get about their business in the quickest way open to them.

    The hon. and learned Member for North-East Cork (Mr. T. M. Healy) has made an attaek, not only upon this Bill, but also upon the Dublin Corporation. I do not intend to allude to every point in that attack, but perhaps I may be allowed to correct one statement which I venture to say is untrue and another statement which was intended to prejudice the cause of this Bill by damaging the name of the corporation. The hon. and learned Gentleman stated—I do not know why he stated it except for the purpose of throwing dirt upon the corporation—that five members of that body were connected with the recent insurrection. There are eighty members of the corporation, and, so far as I can discover, only five concerned were taken notice of by the Government as taking part in any way in the insurrection. As regards those who formed the committee to deal with this matter, one member is one of the most prominent Unionists in Dublin, namely, Alderman Macarthy. The hon. and learned Member stated that there was no single resolution passed by the Dublin Corporation approving of the proceedings in connection with this Bill. On the 3rd July this year a meeting of the corporation was held, which was largely attended. On that occasion a report of the deputation that had been sent across to interview the Prime Minister, with reference to obtaining money for these proceedings, was read. It was adopted, and in the course of the proceedings on the report it was stated:

    "The objects sought by the deputation were two. It was explained that the purposes of the proposed loan were, first, to enable the corporation to lend money to those citizens whose premises were destroyed so as to assist them, in addition to the ex gratia Grant, in rebuilding according to the requirements of the corporation; and, secondly, to enable the corporation themselves to borrow money for the necessary street widenings and improvements and to purchase themselves any sites which the occupying tenants did not propose to rebuild upon."
    After that report had been read the following resolution was passed:
    "That we adopt the report of the deputation as read by the town clerk; that the right hon. the lord Mayor—"
    and other members of the corporation, including two Unionists—
    "be and are hereby appointed a committee to complete the negotiations with the Government and to prepare and transact an improvement scheme for the reconstruction of the destroyed areas and to do all things necessary in connection therewith."
    If that is not an authority to the committee which has undertaken this work I do not know what the expression "authority" means. But I do not rise to defend the corporation, yet I think an explanation of what has taken place will be not only a complete defence of the corporation, but also a complete defence of the Bill as it was introduced. What has the corporation done? After the Prime Minister, speaking on behalf of the Government, had promised this ex gratia Grant and had agreed to appoint the Commission which has been referred to—Sir William Goulding's Commission—the Lord Mayor and the committee of the corporation set themselves to do two things—first, to see that the reconstruction was carried out in a proper manner and in a fashion worthy of probably the finest thoroughfare in these islands; and, secondly, to help those who might be injured in the execution of that reconstruction scheme. It is rather interesting to recall the fact that, in the first place, they did not ask for a loan. They did not propose to pay any money or put any burden whatever on the ratepayers. They asked for a Grant on each of the same grounds as those put forward by the hon. and learned Member as grounds upon which a Grant ought to be made even at the present time, and on the principle that those who, to use the phrase of the hon. and learned Member, pay the money should call the tune, agreed that the disbursement of the money should not rest in the hands of the corporation at all, but that it should be put into the hands of a Commission, totally independent of the persons to whom the money would be paid. They pressed that upon the Government. They went to the Prime Minister and he refused a Grant. They asked the Home Secretary when he was in temporary charge of Irish affairs and he would not have it.

    The Government absolutely refused to make a Grant, and then we did the next best thing. We asked for a loan which the corporation might re-lend to those people who would be injured or unable to proceed with the execution of the plans of the corporation, and we had a memorable interview with the Prime Minister. I am sorry he is not here, but I am perfectly certain he will not contradict anything I say. We asked for a loan in order that the exercise of these powers might not work injustice to individuals. He said he would make arrangements with the Treasury for a loan of the amount required, and he told us to go back to the Local Government Board—It was not our own suggestion, it was his—and in conjunction with them to frame a scheme for carrying out this business of reconstruction. The corporation did go back, as he suggested, to the Local Government Board, and the result is the Bill before the House. For most of the provisions of that Bill there is actual legislative precedent. You will find similar proposals in the Town Planning Act. You will find the abolition of a resort to Parliament enacted in two recent Acts of Parliament relating to Ireland—first, the Labourers Act, 1906; and, second, the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1908—and the working of the schemes under both those Acts has been most satisfactory; the justice of them has never been questioned; they have had an appeal to the Courts in Ireland, and in the case of the Housing of the Working Classes Acts no appeal has ever been taken to the final authority. There is scarcely a provision in the Bill that is not based on actual legislation, and if this Bill-were proposed for any English corporation under similar circumstances no one would think of opposing it. If, for instance, it were proposed for Exeter, I am certain that not a single man in the House would refuse it, and I am perfectly certain the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Duke) would be found supporting it. What are the provisions of the Bill? I wish to go into the matter, because, after all, whether he intended it or not, the hon. and learned Gentleman has really presented a caricature of the Bill. The first Clause is based on a provision of the Labourers Act, 1906, and the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1908, by which, as I have said, the resort to Parliament is abolished, and the merit of it is that it avoids a Government inquiry, it avoids double expense, and it avoids delay. First, there is an inquiry before an official of the Local Government Board. There is an appeal to the Local Government Board itself, and they consider the matter further. Before these changes in the law were made you had to come to Parliament and present a Bill, and if it were opposed the parties were left to fight it out. They were to examine -witnesses, employ counsel, and go through all the formalities, and each Bill cost hundreds or thousands of pounds. The change made by those two Acts was to abolish that second inquiry and all this expense and delay and have it confirmed by the Local Government Board in Ireland acting as a final tribunal. So much for Clause 1.

    The second Clause gives the local authority powers regarding buildings which ought to be possessed by every local authority in the United Kingdom, and the existing laws do to some extent recognise the justice of that because they provide, as regards new buildings, powers approaching in the direction of the powers given- here. I do not think I am revealing any secret when I say the Prime Minister actually stated that he thought they had those powers already. At any rate he said they ought to have them. However, to take away all cause for alarm, to make everybody sure that nothing wrong is contemplated and that no sinister object was involved, it was agreed between the corporation and the Local Government Board that the Local Government Board should be the head and tail of every proceeding under the Bill. I think the Chief Secretary will admit that I am giving a fair description of the Bill, and anyone can find it out for himself. From the very first Clause in it down to the very last the trail of the Local Government Board is over it. In addition, some of these powers to make by-laws regulating buildings are in principle established by a number of private Acts passed by this House. If hon. Members will look into the local and private Acts of 1915 they will find there private Acts, that is local Acts, passed for Dewsbury, Rotherham, Doncaster and Lincoln, in all of which the principle is asserted that the public interest must prevail wherever private rights are in danger of conflicting with them, and that is expressed and brought into the Acts of Parliament by a provision of this kind, namely, that when an owner is developing his estate near a city, he shall not be allowed to develop it just as he likes. He is not allowed to treat his property as if it was his own. On the contrary, in every one of these Acts, the hon. Member will find that so lately as 1915 provisions were enacted by which every such owner, before he proceeds to develop his estate, to make a street, or put a stone on a stone for a house, must lay all his plans before the local authority—not the Local Government Board at all but the local authority—and get their sanction. I do not think there is a single corporation in England which would be denied these powers if it asked for them, and a good many have similar powers. I should like to know, if these powers are not given, what reconstruction is possible under the circumstances which have taken place in Dublin. Just now there are steps being taken to reconstruct the cities in northern France and Belgium at the end of the War. An exhibition was held a few weeks ago of plans drawn up for that very purpose. They do not hold these things in France and mean to do nothing with them. On the contrary, it is perfectly plain that when the War is over these plans will be carried out, and very little concern indeed will be paid to the private owners whose rights may be interfered with, but who would be deemed to be standing in the way of the public interest and the beautification and restoration of the country.

    Then there is a Clause providing for the lending and repayment of the money, and here agan every step in the affair is controlled by the final decision of the Local Government Board. The amount of the advance is to be sanctioned by the Local Government Board, so that it will not be too small on the one hand, or too large on the other. The mode in which it is to be repaid, the amount of the instalments, and the time at which they are to be paid are within the control of the Local Government Board, and the rate of interest is within the control of the Local Government Board, except that they cannot go beyond 10s. per cent. of the difference over the rate at which the money is borrowed from the Government. Finally, the actual form of the mortgage is to be sanctioned by the Local Government Board.

    That is a most irrelevant observation. I do not understand it at all. Then there is Clause 4, authorising the acquisition of derelict property. The greatest care is taken to safeguard the rights of owners there, because the very first provision in it is that two years must elapse before any steps are taken under the Clause, so as to allow the owner full opportunity of making all the use he likes of his land, and showing that he does not intend to leave it derelict. Finally, the corporation, so little have they of sinister motive in mind, so little did they want to burden the community or to force loans upon people at usurious rates of interest, have actually invited the association that represents the owners whose property has been destroyed to join the committee for the purpose of consultation. I do not know how much further they could go to prove their bona fides and their sincerity. How have they been met, and how have they been met to-night? The very men whom they sought to help, and whom the corporation sought to help, have petitioned against this Bill. They went to the Chief Secretary the other day, we are informed by the public Press, with suggestions the adoption of any one of which would justify the corporation in rejecting the Bill altogether; but, as the corporation was anxious to save the Bill if possible and render possible a reconstruction of the city without injustice to anyone, the committee of the corporation again manifested its bona fides and sincerity by agreeing to several of these suggestions. For instance, they agreed that the Bill should be sent to a Select Committee as a condition of passing the Second Reading before the Recess. That is a large concession. If it was not absolutely necessary, it is a most disastrous concession from the point of view of avoiding delay, because Parliament will not reassemble till 10th October, and when 10th October comes the Committee will have to be selected, and it will take some time before it sets to work, it will take evidence and hear the speeches of counsel, I suppose, on both sides, and, therefore, we may look forward to two or three months before any step whatever can be taken under this Bill, whereas, as we told the Prime Minister, we cannot wait a year, six months, three months, or two months if this reconstruction scheme is to be carried through at all in any reasonable time. They agreed to this course, which would involve indefinite delay. They agreed to emasculate Clause 1, which abolishes the reference to Parliament. I think that is a serious blow to the Bill. I think it is a disastrous change made in the Bill. It involves indefinite delay, double investigation, and double expense. Next, they agreed to the elimination of the Local Government Board as the final authority. That seems to me a very extraordinary concession to make. The Local Government Board has not been a very popular institution in Ireland. We have had on many occasions to arraign the Local Government Board in the House of Commons for acts of administration which, in my opinion, ought to have been prevented. But, as the Chief Secretary said truly to-day, the property owners came along and asked for the elimination of the Local Government Board and the substitution for that tribunal of some so-called independent outside authority. To some extent, but not to the whole extent, the corporation have agreed to the change They agreed on two conditions. The right hon. Gentleman will bear me out in this—because it was conveyed to him in a letter from the corporation—that they agreed on two conditions (1) that the constitution of the outside body should be subject to discussion and, I presume, satisfactory to the corporation; (2) that the passage of the Bill should be guaranteed without further concession, and (3) that no further compensation is to be given at the expense of the ratepayers. Of course, if the Government gives a Grant I have nothing more to say. We should not then have a locus standi. It would be their business to see how it was expended. We do not grudge these gentlemen any money they are able to get from the Government, but I do think it is an extraordinary thing that they should ask for compensation from ratepayers of Dublin who are not responsible for their misfortune. All I can say to the right hon. Gentleman is this—and I am speaking with the assent of the representatives of the corporation—that we will never assent to any proposal of that kind. It is said that these gentlemen will be injured. I cannot understand how they will be injured. This independent authority, if it is set up, will first of all have to say what by-laws ought to be enacted and where in any case injury would be inflicted without the modification of these by-laws or the plans consequent upon them. That, it seems to me, is sufficient protection. Suppose they say, "We do not want the Bill. We do not need these buildings." If they do not need them, at any rate they will have the improved property, but it is monstrous to say that they should be presented with new property at the expense of their fellow ratepayers. Supposing a man says, "I do not want these additional rooms to my house, or these additional storeys to the building." Nothing is to prevent them from actually letting the rooms at a profitable rent, as is done in London, Manchester, Birmingham, and other big places, thereby recouping themselves for the instalments and interest out of the rents so paid. I do not understand how they are going to be injured.

    It is best to be perfectly frank, especially with the right hon. Gentleman. We sought—and I am speaking what I know to be the truth—while securing the reconstruction of the city in a worthy manner, to benefit these gentlemen who are now petitioning against the Bill, and whose voice has been heard to-night in the speech of the hon. and learned Member for Cork (Mr. T. M. Healy). If these further concessions are asked for, and especially if any proposal is made to take compensation out of the ratepayers' pockets for the benefit of those men, we do not want this Bill at all, and the right hon. Gentleman would spare himself a lot of trouble if before the Debate concludes he got up and said, "I withdraw the Bill." We do not want to burden the ratepayers unnecessarily. We never intended to burden them, and I do not believe that any burden would have fallen upon them. The persons who borrowed the money would have repaid it. They could have been made to repay it. They would have prospered upon it, and the city would have been reconstructed in a proper fashion. But if the right hon. Gentleman or anybody else thinks—certainly if a large body of opinion representing these owners think they would be better without the Bill—

    Then I promise the right hon. Gentleman that there would be no great opposition on the part of the corporation of Dublin to the withdrawal of the Bill, and we will see then who will be sorry in the end.

    When this Bill was before the House on the previous occasion I asked the Attorney-General whether he could give us any information as to whether or not there would be a Bill, which would require the sanction of this House, authorising either the loan or the Grant. The right hon. and learned Gentleman, in his reply, was not acquainted with what actually would take place. I understood my right hon. and learned Friend to say that he thought that in all probability the money would be found out of the Vote of Credit.

    The right hon. Gentleman is mistaken. What I was referring to on that occasion was the compensation provided by Sir William Goulding's Committee. That is not the sum of money dealt with in this Bill at all.

    There is to be money dealt with under this Bill, and if the money which is to be dealt with under Sir William Goulding's Bill is to be handed over, or apparently has been handed over, out of the Vote of Credit, and without any sanction of this House I think that is wrong. Everyone will agree that it was never intended, when this House sanctioned the Vote of Credit, that the money was to be used for this purpose. I do not say whether it is a good purpose or a bad purpose. We sanctioned the Vote of Credit on the understanding that the money was to be used for war purposes and not for purposes of this kind. Therefore, I think it is doubly necessary, unless the Bill is withdrawn, that we should have some assurance from the Government that Votes of Credit should not be used for this purpose, but that we in this House should have some control over the finances of the country, and that a Bill should be brought in authorising the expenditure of that money.

    It seems to me that there is a grant of public money which is to be provided for in this Bill. There is no Clause in italics, and there is no way that I know of in which this money can be obtained unless a Bill is introduced. I understand that it is not the intention of the Government to introduce a Bill. Therefore it might be that English Members who will have to find the money would refuse to give a Second Reading to this Bill unless they knew they were to have some control over the finding of the money. Sub-section (2) of Clause 3, of this Bill says:

    The advance shall not exceed the difference between the amount which the Local Government Board certify to be the total cost of rebuilding or restoring the house or building in such manner as aforesaid and the amount of the compensation granted out of public moneys….

    Therefore, I think I have some right to ask the Government where this public money is coming from, and whether or not we should have a Bill which will give the House an opportunity of expressing their opinion, first, upon the amount—because that is the important point—and secondly, upon the advisability. I think that is necessary, because the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Healy) says that in all probability the present corporation will not be long with us. He has said that two of the members are in penal servitude, two are interned, and of the remainder three-fourths would not be re- elected if there were a general election in connection with the corporation. Under these circumstances I think it is doubly necessary that we should have some information as to how this money is to be found, and that we should have an opportunity of discussing the amount and the method of its being given. I would like also to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the fact that there is a Clause in this Bill which authorises betterment. That is a very contentious subject, and I do not quite see what it has got to do with the rebuilding of Dublin, if rebuilding can be proceeded with at the present time. I think by an Order in Council the Minister of Munitions has stated that there is to be no building, operations which have not already been commenced for a sum of more than £500 in each case. Therefore, it seems to me to-be rather difficult how they are to get over that and to commence building operations. In any Emergency Bill on an emergency subject I question the right of the Government to introduce a controversial principle like betterment. That ought to have been reserved for ordinary times, especially as we have the pledge of the Government that no controversial legislation will be introduced.

    I beg to move to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this date three months."

    6.0 P.M.

    I rise for the purpose of drawing attention to some very oppressive principles in this Bill. The hon. and learned Member for North Dublin said that if property owners in Dublin were opposed to this Bill he certainly would not press it.

    I said that if any further concessions were made, and especially if any concession was made in the direction of providing further compensation out of the ratepayers' money which they borrowed themselves, we would not have the Bill.

    I oppose this Bill because nobody has asked for it. The Corporation of Dublin has not asked for it. Since the Bill was put into print on last Friday week no meeting of the corporation has been held, and no resolution was passed asking anybody to press for this Bill. No doubt a committee was appointed in July to deal with certain matters connected with the reconstruction of the city, but that committee was appointed at a time when it was believed that we would get a free Grant. A statement was made in the Press of Dublin that the Lord Mayor was likely to get £750,000 of a free Grant, and it was contradicted the next day. It was said that the Prime Minister did not say that and that he only heard somebody say that the Prime Minister said it. The hon. and learned Member has referred to the Acts dealing with the labourers' cottages in Ireland. The largest item they ever dealt with was the sum of £40 or £50 for the purchase of a labourer's plot.

    Is there any analogy between purchasing a labourer's plot in a rural district and dealing with the most valuable property in the City of Dublin, involving, between goodwill and reconstruction, from £4,000,000 to £5,000,000? There is no analogy whatever. He has justified this Bill apart from any changes proposed in it by the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary. In my opinion a more oppressive Bill and one interfering more directly with the rights of property was never introduced into this House. It is the legislative progeny of the Dublin Corporation and the Local Government Board, and Clause 1 provides that if there is any appeal against the Corporation of Dublin it must be decided absolutely and finally by the Local Government Board, who, with the corporation, is the joint parent of this Bill. That is a most objectionable system and opposed to the most elementary principles of British justice. There is no such power given to anybody in England, either to the Local Government Board or any local authority.

    The hon. and learned Gentleman has referred to the Town Planning Act. That was discussed for twenty-three days in Committee upstairs, and was thrashed out fully there. When it came down to this House at the end of the Session, so determined was the House to discuss the novel principles introduced into the Bill that it asked the Government to hold it up for another year, and it was held up a full year and further discussed. The Town Planning Act in England has nothing to do with æsthetic principles. It brings no ideas imported from Paris or Italy into the heart of London. It is purely a matter of public health, and it is only where land is likely to be used for building purposes, or is in course of development, that there is any power whatever to apply it. That is the opening Clause of the Act. All through the Act it is provided that compensation must be given to any person whose property is injured. There is no such Clause in the Bill before the House at present. The hon. and learned Gentleman says that if any further compensation is given at the expense of the ratepayers the Bill will be opposed. We object to the Local Government Board in Ireland having conferred upon them the powers proposed by this Bill. When the Town Planning Bill was before this House the Government made provision in the First Schedule that where the land proposed to be acquired under the Order consists of or comprises land situate in London or any borough or urban district, the Court shall appoint an impartial person, not in the employment of any Government Department, to hold the inquiry. It is not casting any reflection upon the Dublin Corporation to point out that no local authority is treated under that Act in the manner now proposed; and that, after the full discussion to which I have referred, it was provided that the Local Government Board is not to be the arbitrator, but that an impartial person not connected with any public department. Further, if these recommendations are not complied with, the Order is not to be confirmed. So much for the statement of the hon. and learned Member.

    The hon. and learned Member for North-East Cork and myself speak in a special manner for those who have lost property in Dublin, for whom the hon. and learned Member for North Dublin, whomever else he may represent, is not entitled to speak. Clause 2 of this Bill gives a power to the Corporation of Dublin which is not given to any body in this country. It gives that body a most oppressive power without any right of appeal from it. As originally drafted it gave the corporation power to say of what material the house should be made, of what design and alignment, and what should be its general symmetry. From the by-laws so laid down there was originally no appeal whatever to the Local Government Board or anybody else. Was that fair? You can confiscate property by imposing undue charges or oppressive burdens upon it as easily and as simply as you can confiscate it by an Act of Parliament. This Bill, if passed in its original form would, I believe, ruin half the individual owners of the property destroyed in Dublin.

    The Clause authorises the corporation to say what style of buildings should go up. Assuming, for a moment, that the owners had not sufficient money to put up that building, they are compelled to borrow money at a high rate of interest while the War is still in progress, or within two years. Here, in England, you forbid anyone to erect buildings at a cost of more than £500 during the progress of the War. In Ireland you seek to compel people to build to the extent of between £3,000,000 and £4,000,000 within the space of two years, while the War is in progress, and while the wages of workmen and the cost of materials are at the highest point, and you compel them, if need be, to borrow money to execute that work. If they fail to execute it, you have another Clause in the Bill enabling the corporation to go to its partner, the Local Government Board, to get an Order to acquire the property. Is that reasonable or fair? The hon. and learned Gentleman stated that the Dublin Corporation is borrowing money to benefit those people. Those people never asked the Dublin Corporation to borrow any money. Those people have lodged a petition in this House, signed by nine-tenths of the property owners, petitioning against this Bill, and they have asked us to come here to support that petition.

    The Corporation of Dublin has undertaken no responsibility whatever under this Bill. Let those who can point to its philanthropy. It is the individual occupier and the individual owner who are going to be crushed under this Bill. The individual owner is the man who alone has to bear the burden of repaying this interest on capital borrowed, not for useful or productive purposes, but for purely ornamental purposes. We protest in the strongest manner that these sites in the City of Dublin shall not by indirect legislation be confiscated. We think we have a right to build on them in the way best adapted to our own business, under the reasonable regulations which are embodied in the Public Health Act or the Town Planning Act of this country. The Town Planning Act gives to no Corporation the power to say what material must be put into houses. It gives no power to say of what design houses must be, and no power to say that they must be built in general symmetry. Those provisions are embodied, and embodied for the first time, in this Bill, which I say will have the effect of confiscating one-half the property of those who are now the owners of sites and ruined houses in the City of Dublin. The Corporation is the reputed author of the Bill, but it specifically states that it will not lend the money unless the security is as good as an ordinary mortgagee would accept. Where does the benefit come in? Then it will only lend the money at a profit of 10s. per cent., while under the Land Act of 1903 10s. per cent. was sufficient for repayment of interest and sinking fund. In addition, repayment is to be made within thirty years, while under the Housing Acts in England repayment is not to be made for eighty years, and then the loan must be given at the minimum of interest.

    We represent 1,400 of those who have suffered in the City of Dublin in consequence of the disturbances. We represent 90 per cent. of the capital involved in these disturbances. The persons whose property is involved have no direct representation in the Corporation of Dublin. Is it fair that this House should leave, or should offer to leave, to any single body the right to dictate to the owners of property such conditions of reconstruction as will practically deprive them of all interest in their business1! They represent vast interests in the City of Dublin. They have been established in business for more than 100 years. Is this House, without even the ordinary inquiry which would take place, if this was to be treated as a private Bill, to adopt such a course? We protest against our interest being, filched away by a Bill of this nature, by a public Bill under which we are to be deprived of the protection of inquiry upstairs. That privilege will only be taken from us when it is forcibly wrested. In reply to the hon. and learned Member for Dublin, I am willing to move the rejection of this Bill. None of the sufferers have asked for it. It is forced upon them by the Corporation of Dublin, not to rescue them from this sore dilemma in which they have been placed, and from which they have been suffering for four months. We say reject this Bill, if you will. We do not want it. If other Members of this House want it, it is not for the sake of the sufferers; it is for the sake of the Corporation of Dublin, to increase their power to beautify the city.

    We do not object to beautifying the city, but what we do object to is that this measure should compel individuals to make these improvements and embellishments in the City of Dublin at their own expense. I presume, if this work goes on, that an architect will be called in to draw up plans for the Dublin Corporation, but it is the owners of the property on the sites who will be called upon to pay. I submit to the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary that we should wait for the Report of Sir William Goulding's Committee, for we hold that there ought to be reasonable compensation in respect of the work of restoration and building, and, furthermore, that the Bill should be held up for a few months until we have had an opportunity of discussing the Report of the Committee in this House, on a day appointed for that purpose. The Goulding Committee are deciding claims or considering them without hearing anyone except their own assessors. Those whom I represent submit that this Bill should not go a step further before provisions are made in respect of those whose property has been destroyed in this ruined area; that they will not be called upon to bear expenditure necessitated by expensive plans which may be adopted by the Corporation of Dublin. Such plans might be met by the borrowing of the money necessary, but it would be very unfair to compel the owner of property within the area concerned to comply with unreasonable demands made on behalf of the corporation. The right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary has referred to some modifications which he intends to introduce into the Bill, and in regard to which the hon. Member for North Dublin (Mr. Clancy) appears to know more than we do, having had the benefit of confidential interviews, the result of which he has communicated to the House.

    I have given no information with regard to confidential interviews. I would be very sorry to dishonour myself in such a way. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"]

    We wish that this Bill shall be allowed to stand over for a month or so, in order that the House may have an opportunity of considering the Report of the Goulding Committee. If the Corporation of Dublin insist on having buildings which will cost a large sum of money surely the individual owners ought not to be compelled to do that work. The individual owner of a site in this area ought not to be compelled to put up a building which he does not require for his own business purposes, but which is merely erected for the ornament and embellishment of the city. By acting in the way proposed you would simply be confiscating the owner's property. I regret that my hon. Friends do not take the same view that I do of this matter, but they have not been in touch with those who have suffered through the recent events. This is called emergency legislation, but Dublin does not want emergency legislation of this nature, and they say, "Withdraw your Bill; we are satisfied." If, later on, anybody wants help, perhaps the Bill can be reintroduced, but as it is at present it would only inflict hardship, and therefore we say "Withdraw it." I might give an instance of the action of Sir William Goulding's Committee in order to show that it should come under review. During the rebellion two horses were shot, and afterwards they died of their wounds. The Goulding Committee held that the loss of these horses was a consequential damage, and not a direct damage arising out of the rebellion; and I submit that incidents such as that show the necessity of our reviewing the action of the Committee in this House. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will assist us to get a Debate on this subject in the House, for it is one which it is vital we should discuss, in order that we may have action of a proper kind on the part of a public body.

    I beg to second the Amendment.

    I myself intended to move the rejection of the Bill, and my Amendment appears-on the Order Paper, but I am bound to admit that, in my opposition to this measure, I approach it from a point of view which not only is not in agreement with that of the hon. Member, but is as nearly as possible from the directly opposite standpoint; nevertheless, I am just as anxious as he is to see the Bill rejected. I understood from the hon. Member who has just spoken that one ground of objection to this Bill was that in his view it is the right of every property owner in the damaged district of Dublin to rebuild his property in practically any way he likes.

    The hon. Member does not accept that statement, but it appears to me that that is the real gist of his argument.

    The Public Health Act compels compliance with the requirements of the corporation.

    I understood the hon. Member to state, as a matter of principle, that the property owners ought to be allowed to rebuild their places with a view to their own requirements and their own business, and practically from that standpoint alone. It appears to me that in the discussion of this Bill hitherto there have "been two interests represented by the hon. Members who addressed the House. We have had speeches from the standpoint of the ratepayers of Dublin, and also from the standpoint of the property owners in the damaged district. But there is another interest, and I think the most important interest of all, when we are considering such a matter as the rebuilding of a large part of a great city, and that is the interest of the general public, who are neither property owners nor necessarily ratepayers of Dublin, and there is a still larger and greater interest behind that, the interest of posterity. It is my view, when we are considering a matter of this sort, that the House of Commons ought not to neglect the interest of posterity. I think that is a standpoint to which we ought to have regard, even if the whole of the cost which we have in contemplation came from the pockets of the Dublin ratepayers. The case is infinitely stronger when, as is the case here, a large part of the cost comes from the pockets of the British taxpayer. The loans which the corporation are authorised to make under this Bill are to depend upon the amount of compensation which has been already given out of the funds, and which comes out of the pockets of the British taxpayers. Therefore, the House of Commons has in this case an established right to have regard to the immediate interests of the British taxpayer, and also to the interests of posterity, for which the British taxpayer is trustee. No one will deny that of late years there has been a very great advance in this country in public opinion with regard to the question of town planning. That is largely due, I think we ought to own, to the action and enthusiasm of the right hon. Member for Battersea (Mr. John Burns), and I wish he were here to give us his views upon this Bill.

    In the provisions of this Bill it appears to me that the interests of town planning are almost completely disregarded. I ventured to interrupt my right hon. Friend when he was expounding the measure with a view to ascertaining whether, in the new provisions which he has promised, safeguards are framed from that point of view, and I gather from him that nothing of the sort has been done. The hon. Gentleman who has just spoken complained of the power given to the corporation of Dublin upon the ground that they might require a style of building much more expensive and much more magnificent than will at all suit the views of the owners of property on the sites. I am very much afraid that the corporation of Dublin will err in the opposite direction, and I do not suppose that anybody suggests that the corporation of Dublin, or any corporation or any body of that kind, is likely to have a very high or enlightened view with regard to aesthetic considerations. I do not refer to the description of the corporation given by the Member for North-East Cork (Mr. Healy), that members have been shot or sent to penal servitude. The members of that body, no doubt, are respectable and worthy citizens, but they are not a body to which aesthetic considerations in connection with the rebuilding of a great city ought to be consigned at the present time.

    This is not a question of merely rebuilding. This is a great opportunity, which has come through very unfortunate circumstances, to effect improvements in the City. Hon. Members may recall that the great fire of London, for example, in the perspective of history, has turned out to be a great blessing in disguise. No doubt at the time when that great disaster occurred, contemporary owners of property in London viewed matters from very much the same standpoint as that of the hon. Members below the Gangway; but, in point of fact, it was made the occasion for a great rebuilding scheme on a very magnificent scale, and we have, as the result, many fine buildings of Sir Christopher Wren which, but for the Great Fire, we would never have had in London. The rebellion in Dublin has incidentally caused the destruction of a considerable part of that city. I hope that, when the present generation has passed away, and when this work has been performed, not as being a question of the day, or merely temporary, but for a long future, our successors will not have to look back and find that, horrible though the rebellion may have been, it was unfortunately less horrible than the reconstruction that followed; and it would be a very great pity if the rebuilding of this area in Dublin should, in the eyes of coming generations, be a horrible and disgusting monument of these days. The hon. Member for North-East Cork, who takes very much the same view as the hon. Member behind him, expressed most daring individualistic views on this subject. He went so far as to say that, after all, narrow streets were better than broad streets for shopping, and I understood him to mean that it really did not matter what sort of buildings were put up. I am not concerned now to contest that as a general principle, but I think that anyone who has ever visited the most splendid streets m Paris would find very great difficulty in assenting to the view that narrow, slummy streets are necessarily the best from a business point of view.

    It is not as narrow as Bond Street. I think if the hon. and learned Gentleman will recall some of the boulevards of Paris he will find strong reason to change his view. Prom a town-planning and architectural standpoint you require to have expert authority and expert opinion. There is no provision for anything of the sort in this Bill. There is an Institute of Architects in Ireland and a similar Institute in England, out I do not know enough about either of those bodies to say whether they or either of them would really be a competent authority either to deal with this matter themselves or to give advice. I am perfectly certain that the artistic resources of the country are not at so low a level that if the Government really had regard to this point of view they could not procure such expert assistance in the matter of design, alignment, material, and architecture as would meet the situation. There is a special reason why I think that this point of view should not be lost sight of in Dublin. Hon. Members below the Gangway very often have been interested in recent years in Irish artistic questions of various sorts, Irish literature, Irish drama, and so forth. They have been fond, with many of their friends—and I am one of them—of recalling some of the glories of the ancient Irish harp; but it is, unfortunately, the fact that architecture is perhaps one of the arts which has never flourished in Ireland. I will go so far as to say that domestic architecture in Ireland stands today in probably a worse position than in any other country in Europe. There are some very respectable Georgian houses in Dublin of some dignity, though perhaps not very attractive outside, but if we leave the ordinary undirected taste of the Dublin Corporation or of individuals in Ireland at the present time to restore Dublin you may be perfectly certain that a great opportunity will have been lost and that Dublin of the future, instead of being greater and better than it is to-day, will be inferior to that city to which we have been accustomed. I regret very much that the right hon. Gentleman in preparing this Bill has so entirely given the go-by to this aspect of the question, which to my mind is an extremely important one.

    Not very long after the outbreak in Dublin I put a question to the Prime Minister asking him whether this aspect of the question would be borne in mind when any scheme of reconstruction was considered. The Prime Minister in reply gave me to understand that he entirely sympathised with that point of view and realised its importance, and he told me it would certainly be taken into consideration. I am afraid we have of late learned to attach very little value to answers of that character coming from the Ministerial Bench, but I did found some hope on the right hon. Gentleman's sympathy and also on the fact that this point with regard to town planning has made such immense strides in recent years in this country. I am not myself concerned, not being in my province, to say anything with regard to the various local interests in Dublin and which are in the much safer hands of the hon. Members who have already spoken. I feel so strongly as an Irishman, and I would feel equally strongly if I were not, with regard to a great city of this sort in our own country that even if all the other aspects of the Bill were satisfactory to the ratepayers and to the property owners I would still use such powers as I possess to claim the rejection of the Bill from the point of view of the omission of which I make complaint.

    I rise to support the Second Reading of the Bill, but I am bound to say with no great enthusiasm, because of the speech delivered by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Exeter (Mr. Duke), who introduced the Bill. I wish to say in reply to criticism made by hon. Members, and particularly by the hon. Member for North-East Cork (Mr. Healy), that I am proud to be a member of that "effete body," the Dublin Corporation, that has had such abuse to-day at his hands. I am surprised that he was so supported in his criticism of the Dublin Corporation by the hon. Member for North Meath (Mr. White), who is a past member of the Corporation of Dublin. It is regrettable, indeed, that these Gentlemen must come to this House to pour abuse upon the chief representative body of their own country. Their action contrasts very unfavourably with the speech of the hon. Member for St. Augustine's (Mr. McNeill), who although he opposed the Bill, giving grounds which may not be satisfactory, at least did not pour abuse and ridicule on his own country. I only regret, if I may say so, that the hon. Member for St. Augustine's could not do like the hon. Member for North-East Cork and borrow a constituency from somebody in Ireland and come here to support us.

    The first argument used against the Bill, or one of the arguments, is that this loan comes out of the pockets of the British taxpayer. That is so. You pledge your credit for it, but I think that the hon. Gentleman who introduced this Bill knows that the experience of everybody is that Ireland pays all its loans back, and there is no evidence to the contray in the case of the Dublin Corporation and its loans. Another argument put forward by the hon. Member for North-East Cork was that the city has to pay for this Bill out of the rates, while the Member for North Meath objects to the city paying anything or accepting any responsibility. One might easily leave the one Gentleman to argue the question out with the other. It is said that we who are supporting the Bill are taking no responsibility, and that the corporation which fathers it will be at no loss. The City of Dublin, by the destruction of property, losses £18,000 in rates. Is that of no interest to them? The City of Dublin will have to undertake the making of paths and roadways. Is that of no interest to them, and have they no right to be considered in this question? We hear that we who are supporting the Bill do not represent those who have lost property. It is news to me that we do not represent the people who have lost property. We have been in consultation with them all along, and if they have changed their minds now that is not our fault.

    What really is the proposal of the corporation? They ask that at this period when whole sides of streets are knocked down that the corporation may avail of the opportunity to carry out a necessary city improvement. Let me point out to the House what it means. One of the streets is an angle forming a corner at what is known as North Earl Street and O'Connell Street, or as it is called Sackville Street. The street at that point is so narrow that two trams could not pass without running into each other. It forms at that point a perfect neck, and taking Nelson's pillar at the top the-bottom of the street is 14 ft. wide. Would the Corporation of Dublin be doing its duty if it did not avail of this opportunity to widen the street? There is one site there on which I understand the owner does not intend to build which is 21 ft. wide, and would we be doing our duty representing the citizens of Dublin if we did not try to secure that 21 ft. of frontage now that it is vacant, rather than attempt to do so with buildings erected upon it? This improvement is absolutely necessary for the traffic in the city. It is all very well for Gentlemen to say that narrow streets are better for business than wide streets. Have the citizens no right to have their convenience taken into account? It is a question of what is the width. Anyone who knows the city is aware of the fact that at this point there is continual congestion of the traffic. We hold that the Corporation of Dublin would not be doing its duty if it did not avail of this opportunity to carry out this improvement. We heard a good deal of abuse poured on the corporation, this "effete body," "this terrible body." The argument used was that some of them have been shot and that some more of them are imprisoned. One member of the corporation has been shot, and I hope an inquiry will take place regarding the shooting of that man He was taken a prisoner on the instructions of the very same gentleman, according to my information, who shot the three prisoners at Portobello. Is the corporation to be condemned because the military authorities put a lunatic in charge of the Army during that period? There are three other men in connection with the corporation who are in prison. Of the eighty members of the corporation four have been involved, and I would far prefer to be one of those gentlemen in prison than to be in this House pouring ridicule on my own countrymen who have been elected to represent the people on the corporation.

    We have heard that one of the reasons why the corporation are looking for this Bill is that they are to receive 10s. per £100 or a ½ per cent., because the maximum of interest which can be charged by the Corporation of Dublin is ½ per cent. more than that at which they borrowed the money. It cannot exceed that, because it is in the Bill that ½ per cent. is the maximum which they can charge. Yet it is imputed to the corporation that they want to make money out of it. Another argument used was that the people whose property was destroyed had no representation whatever in the corporation. But the gentleman who is the strongest in opposition to this improvement is himself an alderman of the corporation, and most of this row has been created about the narrow street because of the property that he has in the street which we purpose widening. There are many things in this Bill which will be an advantage to the city. This discussion will at least clear the air somewhat, because during the last three or four weeks it has been whispered in the City of Dublin that this Bill has been introduced to delay building, and that, if the Bill was not introduced, the people could go on with building now. The Member for North Meath (Mr. P. White) does not want the owners of property to be forced to build during the next two years. He says if this Bill is passed they will be compelled to build within two years. That, at all events, clears up what is in his mind. He does not want the owners of property to be forced to start the reconstruction, but to allow things to remain as they are for two years, an eyesore, and a monument to the beneficent rule which has permitted this to take place in the City of Dublin.

    I will support the Second Reading of the Bill, but I must say that I am rather surprised at some of the suggestions that have been made. The Corporation of Dublin is the body first to be considered, and then the Local Government Board. A remarkable thing about it is this, that for the first time we have heard a representative of the Government of Ireland actually condemning, as a not reliable board, the board of which he himself is president. The right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary is the President of the Board, yet he does not think it a sufficiently independent tribunal to act in this matter. We have had many comedies in Irish life, but I think that beats anything we have had yet. One would have thought that it would be quite sufficient to allow an appeal to the Local Government Board. We, the Nationalists, at all events, have not an extraordinary confidence in the Local Government Board, but we certainly thought that the Chief Secretary himself, as the President, would be the very first to stand up for his Board, which, however, he now repudiates as not being sufficiently trustworthy to be a Court of Appeal in connection with this matter. I think the House will agree that he has made a bad start in the government of the country when he begins by repudiating his own Board. It is one of those things that generally happens with Government representatives coming to Ireland. They do not seek to obtain information from the representatives of the people. The right hon. Gentleman's first interview was with the representatives of his association, which, I understand, is really the Chamber of Commerce. We were brought in at the tail end, and the result of our being brought in is that we now have this extraordinary discovery that an independent tribunal must be set up, to which there will be an appeal. The corporation, which is elected by the citizens, is not independent; the Local Government Board, which is nominated by the Government, and of which the Chief Secretary is President, is not an independent tribunal. We will want to know now who is to be the independent tribunal. We may as well get it perfectly clear in advance that the independent tribunal must be some representative body. It is not going to be fastened upon our backs if it is to be an entirely unnominated board or tribunal.

    But, in passing from that, I will merely say that, whatever be the intention of the Chief Secretary or the Government in connection with this, I appeal to them, in the interests of the city and of the people who have been thrown out of employment, and also in the interests of the appearance of the city, not to have too much red tape in connection with this whole business. Let us get on with the work. We are generally criticised for being too slow in Ireland; now we are too quick. It is because there are a number of people whispering around and conveying messages from this to that body that there is this impeachment of the representative institutions in Ireland. Well, we have just had about enough of it. You have had one rebellion in the City of Dublin, and I think it is quite enough for our lifetime; but I am afraid you are going to have more trouble, and the Chief Secretary is starting by making more trouble for himself if he is going to repose too much in an appeal to tribunals and is going to send these matters upstairs to be discussed at great length and cost to the ratepayers of Dublin. I hear a whisper that the Appeal Tribunal should be Recorder of the City of Dublin. I am not going to say one word about the Recorder of the city of Dublin. I will say this, however, that I do not believe in having a tribunal that would put too many fees into the pockets of the lawyers, and which would cause delay because it would be to the interests of somebody to delay matters. I trust, therefore, we will have a statement now from the Chief Secretary as to what is to be the tribunal and what is to be the future of the appeals.

    I think it is unnecessary for me to go over the points which have already been traversed by previous speakers, but as an old Member for the City of Dublin I think it is my duty to express my opinion that this Bill, with certain modifications, ought to pass. I entirely agree with the statement of the last speaker that the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary is beginning badly in the City of Dublin if he intends to continue the Dublin Castle system of nomination instead of elective representatives. The whole mistake of English rule in Ireland has been, and is, I am afraid, going to be for some time, that those who are in power do not consult the representatives of the people, but consult certain cliques and dominant minorities who seek to gain ascendancy. Those who are elected by the people are put on one side. If I were a member of the Dublin Corporation I never would have agreed to another tribunal being established unless the corporation had a dominating power on it. My reason for saying that is this: The corporation make themselves responsible for the repayment of the loan, and therefore they have a right, in my view at least, having that responsibility, to exercise chief control, subject, of course, to certain conditions. I have had a good deal to do with this matter before the Chief Secretary was appointed. I am one of the Members for the City of Dublin. We interviewed the new Under-Secretary in connection with this and another Bill. We have also had frequent interviews with the property owners, and I am bound to say that I have been very much amazed by the statements made here to-day, that the members of the City of Dublin and the corporation were more or less in conflict with or had some friction with this body called the Property Owners' Association. Why, we have been in constant communication with them, and this Bill practically has been brought forward in order to help these people. The Bill is brought forward to help the property owners, although in my view property and money is generally well able to look after itself.

    However, for some peculiar reason, the property owners took the view that we, the Members for Dublin, did not wish to represent them. Arguments of that sort have been used by many speakers, but there is absolutely nothing in them. You may take it from me, as one acquainted with the City of Dublin, that we do represent the vast majority of the citizens in this respect, at all events, that we want the city reconstructed. With that object we have done our best to meet everybody, and if this Bill is passed as it is, without any further changes, we are prepared to accept it. What does the Bill mean? Certain portions of the City of Dublin are in ruins. It has been pointed out by various newspapers and by business men that the longer the delay in rebuilding the business premises the more the people suffer. There is at present very little employment in the whole of that portion of the city; it is in a lamentable condition. It is therefore the business of the corporation to endeavour to remedy that as soon as possible. The main point I desire to press upon the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary is, first, that we must, avoid as far as possible all delay, secondly, all unnecessary expense, and thirdly, we-must cut off red tape and get to common sense. I think if we had all these three propositions carried out we should do well. My Friend the Attorney-General (Mr. Campbell)—I hope I may call him my Friend, although we do not often agree—my Friend the Attorney-General has a good deal of common sense, only he does not always show it. I think he will agree with what I have said, for I believe, being an Irishman, he likes the City of Dublin, and does not wish to see it remain in the condition that it is in now. But I hope the Chief Secretary will remember the three points that I have mentioned. This Bill is honestly put forward with the object of trying to get some sort of co-operation between all parties concerned, and if it achieves that, things will be well. I hope I am not detaining the House too long, but I very seldom speak, and I do so only upon subjects that I know something about. Some Members, I am afraid, talk in order that they may be reported in the papers at home.

    7.0 P.M.

    No useful purpose, perhaps, is to be served in continuing this Debate, but may I add there is a great principle contained in this Bill. Perhaps I should not say contained in the Bill, but only partially contained, and that principle, which I advocate, is that recognised representatives, elected by the people to manage public affairs in the public interests—even if private interests have to suffer and go by the board—is at the bottom of constitutional government. The right hon. Gentleman comes over nominally as Chief Secretary of a Coalition Government, though I do not call it a Coalition Government, but really a Coalition Coercion Government. If the right hon. Gentleman comes over and thinks that the Irish people are going to stand the old regime of Dublin Castle I can tell him, as a citizen and representative of Dublin for the last twenty-four years, that that is not so. The surest way of preventing risings and rebellions is to trust the people. I am glad to see another old Friend on the Treasury Bench now. I refer to the President of the Local Government Board (Mr. Long). I was really rather amazed at some of the things he said yesterday in connection with another matter. He is beginning to put his trust in the people. He is right. He wants co-operation. He wishes to do away with all those tawdry arguments of which we have heard so much. I trust these sentiments on the Front Bench will be extended to Ireland. If so, we can promise the Chief Secretary a much more peaceful term of office than some of his predecessors have had. I have made the few remarks I have in the best possible spirit. The trouble with some would-be legislators is that if they have an idea in their minds they think they should have a monopoly of it; they think nobody should disagree from them. No law that was ever passed fails to hit somebody, and that somebody often thinks he is more important than anyone else and ought to be considered. This measure will not please everybody. But it is an honest endeavour to try and meet a situation which has been caused by abnormal circumstances, and I trust the Chief Secretary will take such advice as will enable him to satisfy all reasonable aspirations.

    I hope the representative of the Government on the Treasury Bench will take to heart the advice given to him by the hon. Member for the St. Patrick's Division of Dublin. I should like, however, if I may, to refer for a few minutes to the speech to which we listened from the hon. Member for the St. Augustine's Division of Kent. I listened to that speech with very great interest, and I am bound to say, too, that with a very large part of it I was in entire agreement. The hon. Member pointed out that here was a golden opportunity to take advantage of the unfortunate circumstances of Easter Week in Dublin, and to do something in a public and æsthetic sense worthy of a great city like Dublin. That is exactly the purpose of this Bill. It was only when the hon. Member left æsthetic considerations and came to political considerations that he got into deeper water, because, having made a speech in favour of the principle of this Bill, he allowed his prejudices against the Dublin Corporation to carry him away. I would like to say to the hon. Member in ail friendliness that I really do not think he comes into a discussion of this kind with entirely clean hands. He is not an Irish representative, but he lives in the county Antrim. He takes a great interest in the affairs of the county Antrim. I do not know that county quite so well as the hon. Member, but I have been through a large part of it. There are large numbers of labourers' cottages in it, and I say it without fear of contradiction, even from the hon. Member, that they are the ugliest labourers' cottages in the whole of Ireland. I would suggest to the hon. Member that he ought to devote part of his attention to setting his own house in order before he comes down to interfere in the affairs of the capital of Ireland.

    May I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that if he will honour me by visiting the part of county Antrim where I live, and will look at the cottages I have myself built, he will contrast them favourably with those built by the public authority?

    I have seen the cottages to which the hon. Member refers, and I entirely agree with him. I think it would be unjust to him not to admit that. But I think it is a great pity that he did not exercise his undoubted influence with the Government, or the Government Departments, to see that the example which he so well sets in his own district was followed by the Local Government Board in the case of those labourers' cottages which they have built.

    I would not, however, have arisen if it had not been for the speech made by the hon. and learned Member for North-East Cork (Mr. T. M. Healy). I am sure those hon. Members of the House who listened to his speech will be surprised to learn that he himself is a citizen of Dublin. I venture to say that never was there made by anyone a speech showing a more utter and deplorable lack of civic pride or spirit than the speech to which I have referred. We are used to attacks from the hon. and learned Gentleman upon the party to which I belong in this House. They pass over us very lightly indeed, and the House is quite well able to measure, as we are, the fairness of these attacks. It is, however, a different thing from these political attacks upon his fellow-countrymen in this House to come here and slander and misrepresent the Corporation of the City of Dublin. He said, "Here is a moribund corporation, a corporation which, like the House of Commons, has outlived its usefulness." He assured the House that if there was an election to-morrow not three-quarters of the members of the corporation would be sent back to their places by the citizens of Dublin. He went on then to refer to the fact—and laid great stress upon it—that some members of the Corporation of Dublin were concerned in the recent rebellion. Some, he said, had been shot. Some were in penal servitude. Some were in detention at Frongoch. Why did the hon. and learned Gentleman lay so much stress upon that fact? All through his intention was clear and plain. Having thrown mud at the corporation in the earlier part of his speech he wanted furthere to arouse the prejudices of English members against the Dublin Corporation. Then, after all these charges and insinuations against the corporation, he turned round and accuses this very corporation of not having held a meeting to support the Bill. One would have thought he would not have paid much attention to its affairs. One of his main arguments was that the corporation was not behind this Bill at all. What is the meaning of that? What lies behind all this with the hon. and learned Gentleman and the hon. and learned Member for Meath, who followed him, in the attacks upon this Bill? I say it was to-prevent the Dublin Corporation from getting the powers conferred by this Bill, and which they ought to have had years and years ago; which are possessed by the vast majority of similar corporations, both in England and in Scotland.

    In whose interests was the hon. and learned Gentleman speaking? In the interests of certain property owners, who are not anxious to come under rules and regulations, or fair and reasonable bylaws, in the City of Dublin? I think the hon. and learned Gentleman is counsel for a large number of these people. I would like to ask the House to bear in mind this fact, in respect to the safeguards you give, or insist upon, under this Bill for the corporation, or for the Local Government Board in Ireland, that if you do not give some such powers you enable shopkeepers who are anxious to take advantage of the absence of these powers to put up, if they wish, anything in the nature of a huckster's shop in the leading street of the capital of Ireland. The House will be unanimous that these powers ought to be extended to the Dublin Corporation. I think the Irish party, and the corporation themselves, will not be unreasonable in regard to all fair safeguards that may be insisted upon. I hope that the Chief Secretary, who is, I think, entering upon his career in Ireland, will not follow the course which he seems to have begun at the outset, by going, not to public representatives, either in this- House or elsewhere, not to the public representatives of the corporation, but to little cliques, or to the Chamber of Commerce in Dublin, of which anybody who likes can become a member on paying £1 yearly subscription. I trust he will not go to those who have never been associated in the past, and are not to-day, with the popular ideas for the national or the local government of Ireland. The Chief Secretary, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, announced certain modifications. Most of them have been dealt with by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for North Dublin, and I am not going over that ground again. I will only say that of all the modifications he has announced, I do not believe a single one of them is for the betterment of this Bill. He told us, quite truly, that the corporation themselves had agreed to many of these modifications.

    That is quite true. What other course had they when the Chief Secretary went to Dublin and presented a pistol to their head?

    The hon. Member evidently does not know what has happened. I saw the opponents of this Bill, who, if the Bill had been sent to a Select Committee, would probably have postponed the operation of the Bill for a very long time. I learned from them that there were certain matters which they regarded as vital. I put to the representatives of the Corporation of Dublin certain inquiries as to the extent to which they could go without, in their view, rendering the Bill an impossible Bill for them. I learned from the Corporation of Dublin what was the extent to which, as representing Dublin, they considered they could go, and the extent to which the Corporation of Dublin considered they could go is the extent to which I have announced the Government would be ready to go.

    The right hon. Gentleman has made a statement which can be readily substantiated by the production of the letter of the corporation, and in my recollection that letter does not justify the statement that all that was asked for was conceded.

    I did not say so. I said that the concessions which I had said the Government were ready to make in order, if possible, to bring this Bill into early operation, were concessions which the representatives of the corporation had told me, in some cases unwillingly, but at any rate had told me, they were ready to consent to.

    I think the Chief Secretary is really giving away the case when he says that the corporation had unwill- ingly agreed to this, because the Chief Secretary, when he first went to Dublin, had gone to the opponents of this measure, and, knowing he had been influenced by them, the corporation reluctantly felt compelled to give way to his proposals as the only alternative of saving the Bill at all. But I join with the hon. and learned Member for North Dublin (Mr. Clancy) in saying that if the Chief Secretary thinks he is going by any further concessions to smoothen the passage of this measure he is greatly mistaken, because he may keep this Bill under circumstances such as that. I only want, in conclusion, to deal with one point of the proposed alterations which the Chief Secretary has put forward He told us there is to be a new and an independent tribunal set up which is to override in its judgment, not merely the Dublin Corporation—and I suppose as a Unionist we cannot take too much exception to his making a provision of that sort—but to override the Local Government Board, of which he himself is President, which, I am told by an hon. Member behind me, he only learned for the first time to-day. The Chief Secretary, if he goes on in this way, will have a great many more things to learn in the course of carrying out his duties in Ireland. He has not told us what is to be the composition, nor has he told us what are to be the powers, of this independent tribunal that is to lord it over the corporation and the Local Government Board. Are they to have executive powers or are they to have merely a veto over the corporation? Plans are to be put before them that are objected to by persons concerned. They are to have a veto on those plans, but are their powers to go further? Are they not merely to have a veto, but are they to be empowered to say to the corporation, "We will not pass this plan, but we will draw up a plan of our own and 5'ou must carry that out"? That is a power to which the House of Commons, and certainly the Members from Ireland, could not agree for one moment to give to this tribunal; and yet if you do not give some such power as that there is a great danger of a deadlock, because if they veto any proposals put forward by the corporation the matter may be left there for weeks and months to come. I think it has been made perfectly plain what are the conditions under which we agreed to the Second Reading of this Bill, but I am only sorry that at the outset of his career as Chief Secretary the right hon. and learned Member for Exeter has not thought fit to bring himself more into line with public opinion in Ireland and civic opinion in Dublin.

    I am very sorry that the House has to listen to one more Dublin Member on this Bill. I had hoped that everything that could be said on the Bill had been said, and that therefore it would be unnecessary for me to take part in this discussion; but, in view of the question which has been raised, and raised quite recently by the Chief Secretary, as to the concessions which the Dublin Corporation has made for the purpose, if possible, of securing the passage of this measure—although I am in a position, I think, to say now that they are rather indifferent whether it gets a Second Heading or not—I think it is desirable, and it is due to the House, to read an extract from the letter which the town clerk wrote to the right hon. Gentleman embodying the concessions to which the corporation had agreed. The letter is dated 14th August. This is the extract:

    "The Committee considers that the taking away from the Local Government Board, of which you, Sir, are the President, of the control proposed by the Bill to be vested in it is an unmerited slur on that body, which has always hitherto exercised control on similar matters without question as to its impartiality, but if it is necessary to save the Bill——"
    and it was for that purpose that this concession was made—
    "the corporation is prepared to agree to the appointment of some other tribunal, the constitution of which must necessarily be the subject of further discussion."
    I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will agree that that is a condition, and what I meant to say was that when the corporation made these concessions, as he has termed them, they did so on certain conditions, and I propose to read the second condition:
    "With regard to the question of compensation, the Committee cannot agree to the suggestion that anything new should be incorporated in the Bill on this point, as they consider the same would impose an unfair burden on the ratepayers and open the doors to endless claims and litigation."
    I suggest to the House that that makes it perfectly clear that, if the corporation were prepared to make certain concessions, which they did with the greatest reluctance, they did so on the distinct understanding that those two conditions were observed.

    I should just like to refer to the speech made by the hon. Member for St. Augustine's (Mr. K. McNeill). Like the hon. Member for College Green (Mr. Nugent), I wish to say I heard that speech, or a great portion of it, with considerable pleasure, because I recognised in its tone that the hon. Gentleman, while not in political sympathy with the views expressed on these benches, at any rate recognised he was an Irishman, a fact which some Members in this House forget when speaking on a Bill of this character, and he recognised the desirability of realising an opportunity such as this to beautify the capital of Ireland. But there was one statement made by the hon. Gentleman to which I would respectfully take exception. He reminded the House that there had been in the last few years a great revival in Irish drama and Irish literature, but that Ireland had never been, either now or in days gone by, remarkable for its architecture. I was astonished to hear that statement coming from the hon. Member, because since I have been in this House, if he will allow me to say so, he has always shown himself to be a gentleman of very great culture and very extensive reading, not only in regard to architecture, but other subjects, and I was astonished, therefore, to hear him say that Ireland could not lay claim to architectural beauty. It was my privilege to accompany some of the representatives from Overseas through Dublin on their recent visit, and one of the things which several of those gentlemen expressed to me was a great admiration for the beauty of the public buildings of Dublin. They pointed out to me that, within the space of a few hundred yards, some of the most beautiful buildings in Europe are to be found. I refer to the old Parliament House, at present—temporarily, I hope—used as a bank, the University of Dublin, and the Custom House and two cathedrals. The hon. Member, so well informed as he is, telling this House, as an Irishman, that Ireland could not lay claim to very considerable distinction in the matter of architecture, therefore came on me with great surprise.

    I would like to turn to one or two other matters which were raised by previous speakers, though certainly not as palatable to me to discuss as the speech of the hon. Member for St. Augustine's. The hon. Member for North Meath laid great emphasis on the fact that when the corporation by resolution supported this application for money to carry out the reconstruction of Dublin City they did so in the belief that it was a question of a grant and not a loan. I hold in my hand a copy of the resolution and a copy of the return on which that resolution was founded, and again I would like to read a brief extract. This was, I think, on 3rd July:
    "It was explained by the Lord Mayor that the purposes of the proposed loan were to enable the corporation to lend money to those citizens whose premises were destroyed, so as to assist them, in addition to the ex gratia Grant, in rebuilding in accordance with the requirements of the corporation."
    That was passed by twenty-two votes for and one against, and, as already pointed out by one of my colleagues, the one man was a member of the corporation who objected to the widening of the street in which his business was being carried on. Forgive me for saying so, but I do not think there was any point of substance in the speech of the hon. Member for North Meath save that point, and I am sure if he were here he would agree that he was unintentionally led into a misstatement of fact.

    I do not pretend to be able to deal in detail with the various arguments addressed to the House by the hon. and learned Member for North-East Cork (Mr. T. M. Healy). He is a very old and distinguished Member in this House, and I am; a comparatively new and undistinguished Member, but I would be bold enough to suggest that the hon. and learned Member was not always accurate about his facts. He suggested to the House that a bank loan could be obtained for the purposes of carrying out this reconstruction. I think it very unlikely that any bank in the City of Dublin or elsewhere would lend money for the purpose of rebuilding a house and insert a clause in the mortgage that the money should not be called in for thirty years. That Clause is in the Bill to which the House is now asked to give a Second Beading. I do not think that most banks with which I am acquainted would agree to insert in their mortgage deed such a rate of interest as that at which the corporation would be enabled to borrow money under this Bill. [An HON. MEMBER: "What is that?"] That remains to be seen. What I am arguing is that the Government is much more likely to advance money at a lower rate of interest than a bank, and the corporation are prevented by the terms of this Bill from lending the money at a maximum higher rate than 10s. above the rate at which they borrow from the Government. There is an easy remedy open to the hon. and learned Gentleman and his friends, and it is that if they do not want the money they need not ask the corporation for it. I am in a position to tell the House, and I speak with the authority of the Lord Mayor and the town clerk, that the poor struggling people of Dublin have come to both of them and assured them that if money is not forthcoming at a reasonable rate of interest they will never be able to build up the businesses that have been destroyed.

    It is idle for anybody to get up here and say, "Nobody wants this money." Of course, wealthy property owners do not care whether the corporation grants the loan or the Government, because they are able to get on without it. The grants which will be made will be necessary to replace these buildings, especially in view of the admitted increase in the price of materials and the cost of labour, and that is a question which is outside the purview of the Goulding Commission. It follows if that sum is insufficient that these unfortunate people will be unable to rebuild their premises without a loan. Recognising that, the Dublin Members, introduced by the hon. and learned Member for Waterford at the very beginning of this controversy, had an interview with the Prime Minister, and the right hon. Gentleman recognised that a strong case could be made out for making a loan to get over this difficulty. As the House has already been told, the Prime Minister assured us in the clearest and most emphatic manner that the money would be forthcoming providing a scheme was agreed upon between the Dublin Corporation and the Local Government Board. There is another point upon which I think the hon. and learned Member for Cork was mistaken. He said that the corporation already possessed the powers they were seeking under this Bill.

    I understood that the hon. and learned Gentleman said that it was not necessary to seek further powers. So far as I know the only powers the corporation have as regards the erection of buildings is to see that they comply with the sanitary laws, and that they are structurally sound. So that these powers are absolutely necessary to deal with questions of general design, alignment, structure, and the borrowing of money to carry out all these various requirements. I should have thought that the whole of this matter lay within a very narrow ambit, and that there was no necessity for so much controversy and argument, and in some cases eloquence and heat. I hope in all the circumstances of the case the House will agree to give a Second Beading to this Bill, and thus enable the corporation, as far as possible, to blot out the unhappy memory of Easter week.

    The right hon. Gentleman has laid down that it is essential if property is taken away or sites impigned upon that property owners should be compensated. The hon. Member for North Dublin (Mr. Clancy) thereupon said that no such power of compensation had been inserted in the Bill, and that if the Chief Secretary put any such provision in he might as well drop and abandon the measure. My point is that you ought not to take anybody's property for corporate purposes, whether for beautification or enlargement, without the owner being compensated. The hon. Member for North Dublin practically says, "I will confiscate that property without compensation, and if the Government insist that compensation shall be provided by, the corporation, then you may as well drop the Bill." Was there ever such a position? You are to take the property of owners for the purpose of widening the street and then the bon. Member for North Dublin says,"I will insist on taking your property to widen the street and I will give you nothing for it, so far as this Bill is concerned; you may as well withdraw the Bill if that compensation is going to be given." I was amazed that the right hon. Gentleman expects that we should sit silent and assent to such a proposition as that.

    Then the right hon. Gentleman should now accept the offer of the hon. Member for North Dublin and say that compensation is essential if property is taken. It has been said that this Bill is for the advantage of the property owners. Nine-tenths of the property owners have petitioned the House not to pass this Bill, and they do not want it. The suggestion has been made that there are some needy shopkeepers who require this money, but I would like to ask if any of them have put in an appearance. I am convinced that the reason of all the great fuss and excitement shown by hon. Members, some of whom, will not be here very long, is because apparently some of them think it is an offence to refer to the Dublin Corporation as a moribund' body. It is no offence, however, to refer to this House as a moribund body, but I think they are both moribund.

    The Schedule of this Bill provides in the first Section as follows:

    "The Corporation when they propose to purchase land compulsorily under this Act may submit to the Board an Order authorising the corporation to put in force as respects the land specified in the Order the provisions of the Lands Clauses Acts with respect to the purchase and taking of land otherwise than by agreement."
    What the hon. Member for North Dublin said was that the Dublin Corporation stood by that, and would not regard the Bill as worth having if it went further.

    The hon. Member for North Dublin stated that this compensation should not come out of the Dublin rates, or out of the money which was to be borrowed under this Bill.

    That was not my statement. I said that every scrap of land we are going to acquire we must pay for. It is another question altogether whether or not the ratepayers of Dublin after these property owners have got an ex gratia Grant, and after Parliament has set up a tribunal to protect them in the exercise of those powers by the corporation against injustice, it is a ridiculous thing to propose that the ratepayers of Dublin should be obliged to go and hand over all this as a present.

    I am afraid the hon. and learned Member has not illuminated the matter by his remarks. Either we are to get compensation or we are not. It has been conceded by the hon. Member for St. Stephen's Green (Mr. Brady) that the Goulding Commission say they will not in any case provide sufficient money for these buildings. I think that was an appalling statement, and it is an invitation to cut down the ex gratia Grant, and that the money which the corporation is to lend is to be used instead of State funds. That is an appalling statement, and entirely justifies the view we have taken, namely, that the citizens of Dublin have been told by the Prime Minister that they would have the destruction of their property provided against by a State Grant. We now find that this Bill will only provide a part, and that there is not to be adequate State provision at all. I think that justifies the attitude we have taken. My hon. Friend and I will go to a Division against this Bill. The only other thing I wish to say is that I do not think the people of Ireland, and certainly not the people of Dublin, will regard it as any slur upon the members of the Dublin Corporation that I have said that some of them have been shot or interned, and especially interned, seeing that the internment is largely due to the action of an hon. Member of the so-called Irish Nationalist party, the hon. Member for Newry (Mr. Mooney).

    My right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) referred to the question of the power to lend money. If he will look at Clause 5 of the Bill he will find the following provision in Sub-section (2):

    Division No. 55.]

    AYES.

    [7.45 p.m.

    Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis DykeCurrie, George W.Maclean, Rt. Hon. Donald
    Adamson, WilliamDalziet, Davison (Brixton)M'Micking, Major Gilbert
    Agg-Gardner, Sir James TynteDenniss, E. R. B.MacVeagh, Jeremiah
    Ainsworth, John StirlingDuke, Rt. Hon. Henry EdwardMason, James F. (Windsor)
    Alden, PercyEssex, Sir Richard WalterMorgan, George Hay
    Astor, Hon. WaldorfField, WilliamMorton, Alpheus Cleophas
    Baird, John LawrenceFinlay, Rt. Hon, Sir RobertMuldoon, John
    Baldwin, StanleyFisher. Rt. Hon. W. HayesMunro, Rt. Hon. Robert
    Banner, Sir John S. Harmood-Flannery, Sir J. FortescueNewdegate, F. A.
    Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)Fletcher, John SamuelNicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
    Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)Galbraith, SamuelNolan, Joseph
    Barnes, Rt. Hon. George N.Goddard, Rt. Hon. Sir Daniel FordNugent, J. D. (College Green)
    Barrie, H. T.Greenwood, Sir G. G. (Peterborough)Nuttall, Harry
    Beach, William F. H.Greenwood, Sir Hamar (Sunderland)O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
    Beck, Arthur CecilGwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
    Bellairs, Commander C. W.Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
    Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham)O'Malley. William
    Boyton, JamesHanson. Charles AugustinO'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)
    Brace, WilliamHarmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.)Pearce. Sir Robert (Staffs, Leek)
    Brady, Patrick JosephHarris, Percy A. (Leicester, S.)Pearce, Sir William (Limehouse)
    Bridgeman, William CliveHazieton, RichardPease, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Rotherham)
    Broughton, Urban HanlonHelme, Sir Norval WatsonPerkins, Walter F.
    Bryce, J. AnnanHendry, Denis S.Pollock, Ernest Murray
    Bull, Sir William JamesHerbert, Major-Gen. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.)Pratt, J. W.
    Byles, Sir William PollardHewins, William SamuelPryce-Jones, Colonel E.
    Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)Hohler, Gerald FitzroyRadford, Sir George Haynes
    Carew, C. R. S.Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)Raffan, Peter Wilson
    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
    Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir GeorgeHoward, Hon. GeoffreyRea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)
    Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)Hudson, WalterRoberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord Robert(Herts, Hitchin)Johnson, W.Roberts, George H. (Norwich)
    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A.Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)
    Chambers, J.Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)Roe, Sir Thomas
    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.Jones, Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe)Rowlands, James
    Clancy, John JosephJones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney)Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)
    Clynes, John R.Keating, MatthewSamuel, Samuel (Wandsworth)
    Coates, Major Sir Edward FeethamKing, JosephScanlan, Thomas
    Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon)Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)
    Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth)Larmor, Sir J.Shortt, Edward
    Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)Spear, Sir John Ward
    Condon, Thomas JosephLayland-Barrett, Sir F.Strauss, Edward A. (Simthwark, West)
    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury)Sykes, Sir Mark (Hull Central!
    Cory, Sir Clifford John (St. Ives)Long, Rt. Hon. WalterThomas, J. H
    Cowan, W. H.Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)Thorne, G. R, (Wolverhampton)
    Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe)Lundon, ThomasTickler, T. G.
    Craik, Sir HenryMacdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)Toulmin, Sir George
    Crooks, Rt. Hon. WilliamMackinder, Halford J.Valentia, Viscount

    "The Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland may lend money to the corporation for any of the purposes of this Act in like manner as they may lend money for the purposes of the Public Health (Ireland) Acts, 1878 to 1907."

    I think that is the answer to the right hon. Gentleman's question

    I wanted to know whether we should have an opportunity of discussing the amount of these Grants in this House.

    There can be no question about that. The Grants must be sanctioned by this House. I regard that as one of the elementary principles of our financial administration.

    Question put, "That the word ' now ' stand part of the question."

    The House divided: Ayes, 156; Noes, 5.

    Walker, Colonel William HallWilliams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.)Young, William (Perthshire, East)
    Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)Williams, John (Glamorgan)
    Wardle, George J.Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
    Watson, Hon. W.Wing, Thomas EdwardMr. Gulland and Lord Edmund)
    Wilkie, AlexanderWortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-Talbot.

    NOES.

    Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir F. G.White, Patrick (Meath, North)TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
    Fell, ArthurYate, Colonel Charles EdwardMr. Ronald McNeill and Mr. T. M.
    Peto, Basil EdwardHealy.

    Main Question put, and agreed to.

    I beg to move, "That the Bill be committed to a Select Committee of Five Members, Three to be nominated by the House, and Two by the Committee of Selection:

    That all Petitions against the Bill presented Five clear days before the meeting of the Committee be referred to the Committee; that the Petitioners praying to be heard by themselves, their Counsel, or Agents, be heard against the Bill, and Counsel or Agents heard in support of the Bill:

    That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records:

    That Three be the quorum."

    It will be admitted by everybody that this is a Hybrid Bill at the very best. It is a Bill dealing with property which it is proposed to take compulsorily, and there is no case in which a Bill of this kind has not been referred to a Select Committee. Every Rule of the House has been departed from, and the right hon. Gentleman was reminded by the hon. Member for North Dublin (Mr. Clancy) that if this were a Bill brought in for Exeter it would be a private Bill and would not be brought in without the Corporation of Exeter being consulted and without the corporation under the Borough Funds Act taking a vote of its citizens as to whether the Bill was approved or not. Therefore, in regard to this Irish Bill you have departed from every canon and practice dealing with a measure of this kind. It is a Bill dealing with a purely local subject in reference to an emergency that has arisen in that particular city, and I cannot see why it is intended or how it is intended that these property owners shall bring their grievances before the House without some such Committee suggested. One of the more ignorant Members of the House referred to the possibility of this Motion, if it were carried, resulting in fees to myself. Probably that hon. Gentleman does not understand that Members of this House are unable to practise before Select Committees. That kind of ignorance, I think, is very likely to be corrected at the next General Election.

    As I said when I moved the Second Reading, if those who are immediately interested in this Bill cannot take the course which I hope that they will take of coming to an accommodation of their differences during the Parliamentary Recess, the Government will have no alternative but to accept the reference of these matters in dispute to a Select Committee, but I hope that the Motion will not now be insisted upon. I promise my hon. and learned Friend that if, after the Recess, this Bill is not in an agreed form, the Government will not resist the Motion to refer it to a Select Committee. It is very undesirable now to fix the further stages of the Bill in a manner that may hinder an accommodation.

    That statement having been made by the right hon. Gentleman on his responsibility, I accept it and withdraw the Motion.

    Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

    I beg to move, "That the Bill be committed to a Committee of the Whole House."

    I move this formally on the understanding that if there is not an accommodation between the parties during the Recess, I, or some Member of the Government, will move to discharge that Order and to refer the Bill to a Select Committee.

    Question put, and agreed to.

    Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Monday, 21st August.

    Parliament And Local Elections Bill

    Considered in Committee.

    [Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

    Clause 1—(Further Prolongation Of Present Parliament, 5 And 6 Geo V, C 100)

    Cub-section (1) of Section one of the Parliament and Registration Act, 1916, shall have effect as if six years and four months were substituted therein for five years and -eight months.

    I have handed in a manuscript Amendment, but I am not quite certain whether it is in order to move it at this stage, and I would like your opinion upon it. My Amendment really is to substitute a new draft for Clause 1, but I do not know whether this is the proper time to move it.

    The hon. Member's Motion is to leave out Clause 1 and to insert it in another form. It may or may not be better drafting, but he can raise that point when I put the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill." If the Committee accept his view, it will have to negative the Clause as it stands, and, if that should happen, he will be able to bring up his new Clause.

    There may be other Amendments moved to the Clause as it stands, and, if you put those Amendments in the form that they stand part of the Clause, will it be open to me afterwards to move the rejection of the whole Clause? It would seem to me, as a matter of convenience, that there would be a good deal of waste of time in discussing various verbal alterations of the Clause as it stands, and then afterwards in discussing a redrafting of the Clause. Assuming my Amendment were in order and that it were accepted, it would become the Clause upon which the more minute verbal Amendments would be moved, and that would save a double process of amending the Clause.

    8.0 P.M.

    The hon. Member may have a case for an alteration of our Rules, but until they are altered I am bound by them.

    I beg to move, in Clause 1, to leave out the words "six years and four months" ["as if six years and four months"], and to insert instead thereof the words "a period lasting for the duration of the War and six months afterwards."

    I think the meaning of the Amendment is perfectly clear. It is that I desire to see it enacted in this Bill that the possible life of this Parliament should be extended until six months after the end of the present war. It is possible that the wording I have put down is not exactly the right wording, but I need not deal with that now so long as my meaning is clear. Any slight alteration in wording could, I imagine, be dealt with at a later stage. The Prime Minister came down to the House yesterday and told us that it was almost impossible that we could contemplate a General Election during the course of the War. At any rate, if it was not impossible it would certainly be a very great calamity, and hon. and right hon. Gentlemen in all parts of the House agreed with that. Yet we are asked to draw the conclusion that we ought to make a law that there must be this calamity within twelve months, war or no war. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Certainly, so far as the law can secure that—of course, it is always possible that the law may be altered—we are asked by this Bill to make it certain that if the War is going on at the end of eight months we must, nevertheless, have this calamity, and the only possibility of avoiding that is to have the law altered again. I think there is a very great misunderstanding in the House as to what the effect of extending the life of this Parliament is. It seems to be thought by many people that the effect is that there cannot be a General Election until the added period has expired. That is very far from being the case. A General Election might, nevertheless, take place by Dissolution the very next day after this Bill had become law. What this Bill, if passed in its present form, makes certain is that, in the absence of a further change in the law, there must be a General Election at the end of eight months, however great a calamity it might be to the nation, and however serious might be the state of affairs. Of course, as I have said, anything enacted can be altered, but that would be the effect of this law, and that would always remain so unless it should be hereafter altered. In fact, we are asked to make this great calamity as sure as any law can make it if the War lasts another eight months

    I venture to say to the House that if, as we all agree, it would be a disaster to have a General Election during the time of the War, let us at least make it possible to avoid that disaster by making it possible for this Parliament to last till the end of the War and for six months afterwards, unless it is dissolved in the constitutional way by His Majesty on the advice of his Ministers. I say further, let us do it now. Do not let us pass a law now which would make that desirable result possible only by relying on the possibility of our altering the law at some future time. If we do that, it will have the great advantage that it will not leave this House at the mercy of the other House, with the constant threat of death hanging over the House if this House disagrees with the other House. There is no doubt a certain section of hon. Members in this House who think it would be to their advantage to keep this threat hanging over the House, because they think they can exercise such influence in another place as would bring about a General Election if they desire ft. I venture to say that is a wholly unconstitutional and wholly undesirable position. A Dissolution can always come by the action of His Majesty on the advice of his Ministers, and that action can always be induced by a vote of this House, and can always be induced by the other House. So far as the other House has a constitutional right, it can always exercise its right to reject any measure passed by this House, and thereby bring a certain pressure on the Government to dissolve the House. I venture to think that is enough for all purposes in time of war. In peace time a Dissolution at a fixed date has no doubt always been a part of our Constitution, but I do not think that that principle has any applicability, from the point of view of what is generally desirable in the national interests, to a time of war. I do suggest that in a time of war a fixed date at which Parliament should necessarily come to an end ought to be fixed with reference to the end of the War itself. For my part, I should like to see that a permanent part of our Constitution. At any rate, we are all agreed that during this war, I will not say all war, it would be a great calamity if a General Election were to come about. I wish, therefore, to make it at least possible that we should avoid it, knowing that if it becomes in- evitable, His Majesty, and his Ministers, and this House have it in their power to bring it about.

    I think is might be convenient if I were to say now at once on behalf of the Government what is the view we take of the various Amendments, which all deal with the same point of the duration of Parliament. I confess I do not myself attach very much importance to any particular date, because, for reasons I have explained more than once, I am satisfied that the country would not tolerate the idea—whatever date is fixed in this Bill—of a General Election while the War is still going on. Therefore, whatever date is fixed, it is only a question, supposing the War still continues, and, of course, we hope it will not, of the date when you will bring in another Bill to still further prolong your own life. It is, therefore, rather an academic question. I listened with interest to what my hon. Friend (Mr. A. Williams) said just now. He proposes to prolong the duration of this Parliament for so long as the War lasts and six months afterwards.

    Yes. There is a very great deal to be said for his proposal in point of convenience, but let us remember that this Parliament, this House of Commons in which we now sit, was a party a very few years ago to an Act which voluntarily put an end to its own existence at the expiration of five years. It is quite true that the War was not then foreseen, but since then we have prolonged our own existence for the best part of a year, and now we are going to prolong it again with, I think, universal consent. It is, however, a somewhat invidous task for the House to undertake, and I think an indefinite prolongation, such as my hon. Friend proposes, for so long as the War continues and six months afterwards, is open to a good deal of not unfounded criticism. I think, on the whole, the advantage lies in choosing some fixed date, although hereafter, as I feel quite sure will be the case, we may have to postpone or move that date. There are various suggestions on the Paper for either curtailing or lengthening the time we propose in the Bill, namely, eight months. I explained, I think yesterday, and also when I spoke before, what were the two reasons which have led us to fix, or at least to suggest, the date of eight months. The first was that we were following the precedent of the previous Bill, which was assented to by Parliament, and to which our original proposal of twelve months was cut down; and the next, which is more important, was that according to the best information accessible to us, the new register could not be compiled at an earlier date than the time which we have so fixed, and that it would be an obviously anomalous and inconvenient thing if you provided for the expiration of the life of Parliament at a time when the new register, which you had also sanctioned, could not be brought into operation. In other words, it would have brought about a state of things which everyone agrees is undesirable, namely, having an election upon a register which is already obsolete, and which, of course, eight months hence would be still more out of date. That is the reason that led to the proposal of eight months, but we are not wedded to it or to any other figure. The right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Sir E. Carson), I see, proposes six months, which would bring the life of this Parliament to an end on the 31st of March.

    I must point out that that is a very inconvenient date to select, for two reasons. I am speaking now from the purely practical point of view. There is no principle involved in it. It is inconvenient for two reasons. In the first place, we are always overcrowded in the month of March with necessary financial business which has to be carried before the 31st March—that is to say, before the end of the financial year is reached—and if in that overcrowded month we had also thrown upon us the duty, as we should have in all probability, of considering and discussing a measure for the further prolongation of the life of Parliament, we might be very much pressed—indeed, I think public business would undoubtedly suffer. That is one reason. Another reason, which perhaps the right hon. and learned Gentleman may not have noticed, is this, that next year, I find on consulting the calendar, Easter falls at the end of the first week in April—I think it is the 8th— and obviously, on the assumption that Parliament is going to come to an end, and that there is not going to be a prolongation of its life, you could hardly have a more inconvenient time for an election, or for preparation for an election, than during the week just before Easter.

    We are not proposing to remain the full term. We are only talking now about the difference between six months and eight months. I am only pointing out the practical inconvenience which I think would result from fixing that particular date. Then some of my hon. Friends would like to see a much more remote date, for which, again, there is a great deal to be said. But, having modestly limited our original prolongation of our life to eight months, and being now so much older than we were when we made that original proposal, I do not think it would be decorous on our part, at this very advanced stage of our Parliamentary old age, to go beyond our original term of eight months. On the whole, I am disposed to suggest to the House, if we can avoid an unprofitable discussion and come to a satisfactory and generally agreed conclusion, that we should choose as the date the 30th of April. That is a much more convenient date than the 31st of March. It gives a month to the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite, and it subtracts one month from the eight months which we originally fixed for prolonging our life. It is a modest proposal, and, I think, a convenient proposal, and I hope the House may agree that, on the whole, that represents the balance of convenience and public advantage.

    I put down six months ms a compromise between the eight months in the Bill and what is preferred by a Marge number of those who consult with me, namely, four months. May I point out to the hon. Member who moved this Amendment that the extension by ourselves of? our own life is a very serious proposition? Bit is only the absolute exigencies of the I War that can justify it, if it can be justified at all.

    In point of fact, at the present moment we hardly represent anybody. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] I suppose we represent about 25 per cent, of the electors. We boast that we are representatives of the people. We are not, or only a very little more than the House of Lords are. You were not elected upon these issues that have arisen.

    And on many other things of that kind. You were elected to pass the Parliament Act, giving Parliament a life of five years. Having been elected to do that, now you are going to make it six years and four months, instead of the five years which have now expired. The Prime Minister will agree that that is a very extreme action.

    You are compelled to do it owing to the War, but let us not think that it is a light matter. It is a very serious matter. Therefore, at all events, I think that, compatible with convenience, we ought to extend the life of this Parliament from time to time for the very shortest period that is convenient and not for the longest period. The hon. Member who moved this Amendment said that having this kind of Bill hanging over the Government will enable us to put pressure upon them or something of that kind. Why should it not? It is a perfectly fair thing to do to put on pressure if you have views, unless you are challenging the sincerity of our views, which I do not think the hon. Member intended to do. It is a perfectly fair thing, in a difficult crisis of this kind, that we should take advantage of any way we can to press our views upon a Government which is carrying out the greatest operations of the Empire. So long as our views are honourable and patriotic, we have not only the right, but we are bound to take every way we can to press our views upon the Government, if we think they are in the interests of the country. The manner in which the matter was put forward would lead one to suppose that the Government wants the prolongation, as if the House were factious and did not want to extend the life of Parliament when it was to the benefit of the country, and particularly having regard to the diffi- culties of an election during the War. The House has never taken that attitude at all. It did not take it the last time; it has not taken it now. If it had not been for the Registration Bill, this Bill would not have taken an hour. The whole of the speech made by the Prime Minister in introducing the Bill was a speech on the Registration Bill, not on this Bill. When we talk about putting off an election for eight months, or for twelve months, or until six months after the War, as is proposed in the Amendment, I think the hon. Member might remember that the House is quite willing and anxious, when the time comes and if the same inconveniences of an election arise, to give to the present Parliament the extension that is desirable. Therefore, what I would lay down as the first proposition is: what is the shortest time, not what is the longest time, compatible with convenience to this House? The Prime Minister says that the 31st March is an inconvenient date. I do not think that an hour or two would matter so much. I am perfectly sure that we shall spend several hours on other matters that are not nearly so important as this during, that month. I do not see why there is any inconvenience in bringing up the matter again in the month of March. I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that we might come to a compromise, and if that date is inconvenient, let us make it five months and extend the life of this Parliament until the 31st February. [Laughter.]

    I am glad that the House is in a frivolous mood. The House is always amused by something of that kind, and it is probably just as well that we can have a laugh occasionally. I suggest there would be no inconvenience about that. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that he would have no difficulty, if the same state of affairs exists, in getting the Bill again then. It seems something like bargaining at a fair for the Prime Minister to offer seven months when I have put down six months. Having heard a great deal of discussion about four months, I thought I was making a suggestion that might be accepted readily. Therefore, I suggest the 28th February.

    The House would always be willing to repeat the dose. It is a great thing to point out to the public, to let them see, when we are setting aside these laws and when we are claiming, without any mandate from them, to extend the life of Parliament, that we are doing it for the shortest possible time, and only because of the exigencies of the case. I certainly would have moved my Amendment for six months, but, of course, if the Prime Minister insists upon us having seven months, I must leave it.

    The right hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir E. Carson) has assumed that this House only represents 25 per cent, of the electors. I venture to suggest that never before did a Government represent a larger proportion of the electorate, seeing that we have statesmen drawn from both sides of the House forming a Coalition Ministry and carrying on the business of this country in a manner, I hold, deserving the confidence, not only of this House, but also of the country. It is our pleasure, as Members of this House, to endeavour, while recognising the claim of the Act under which we work, to carry out the wish of the country that the Government shall be left strong and free from continued consideration of outside matters to prosecute the War with the greatest possible vigour to a successful conclusion. As the Prime Minister has made the suggestion of a compromise, and as my name is associated with that of the hon. Member for North-West Durham (Mr. A. Williams) in regard to the Amendment he has moved, I suggest to him that we should withdraw it in order that the Prime Minister's proposal might be accepted. I hope the House will resit very strongly the proposal to reduce the life of this Parliament for a shorter number of months, as is suggested by the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Sir E. Carson). If it has to go to a Division, I would rather see the Government stand by the text of the Bill and test the confidence of the Committee as to whether their proposal should not be accepted, because I take it that it was not arrived at without due consideration. The proposal made by the Prime Minister was made with a desire to get an agreed method of working. We welcome the idea of working in that atmosphere of conciliation and mutual confidence which has been developed under the Coalition Government, and I hope that under it, by means of the Registration Bill, we maybe able to put the franchise on a thoroughly good footing, so that when an appeal is made to the country we may have the carefully expressed opinion of an, election which can deal with the important matters which must follow the successful termination of this War. We are quite willing to withdraw this Amendment if we can meet the wish of the Government and secure an agreement with this House.

    This House was elected for seven years originally, and it is rather an amusing thing to see my right hon. Friend (Sir E. Carson) using the Parliament Act, which he so hotly opposed, as a stand-by for the position he has taken up this evening. He as much as anyone-on this side opposed the Parliament Act for shortening the period of Parliament, and he is now using it as a weapon against the Government. There have been eighteen Parliaments since the Reform Act, six or seven of which lasted for just under or just over six years. This Parliament will come to an end, if this Bill is not passed, in five years and eight months, and my right hon. Friend says it is a serious proposition to extend the life of Parliament for more than six months. I fail to see it. It is no use using eye-wash to deceive the British public and saying we will only extend it for five months, and next time four months. The British public really understands the reason why it is being extended. To extend it for too short a period is extremely inconvenient, because if it was extended for four months, as was proposed at one time, it would mean that hon. Members would have to go to their constituencies and get ready in the short space of four months, and if it is only to be extended for another four months they would have to go down again, and they would be perpetually visiting their constituencies in short periods of four months. This is the only House which is really representative of the whole of the constituencies of this country until the soldiers come back from the front. You never can have another House of Commons which is really representative elected by the whole of the electors of this country until the soldiers come back from the front. What is the use of pretending that you are going to have another register, a stop-gap kind of register, as it was described by the Prime Minister the other day? We are never going to have an election on that to settle the reconstruction after the War, so that practically we all feel that there never can be, until alter the soldiers come back, a real General Election which would really represent the people. Now we are making not two bites at a cherry, but half a dozen. Supposing we went to the country on the present register, which of course does not represent the whole of the people of this country by any means, or on the new register that is suggested in the Bill which passed Second Reading yesterday, what should we do? On what issue should we go to the country? If we had no contest in any of the constituencies it would be a futile proceeding. If we did have contests, what about the men in khaki, Members of the House, who are fighting and who would have to be opposed if it were a proper election? In all probability it would be an ungrateful thing to them. Therefore, as there is to be no real General Election to get a proper representative House of Commons till the soldiers come back from the front after the end of the War, it seems to me to be trifling with the subject to be niggling about seven months or eight months. I should like to support the Prime Minister and say eight months by all means. But for peace, and to meet those who have these peculiar views on the subject, I am willing to consent to seven.

    I think it is a fatal mistake on the part of the Government to make a proposal and then compromise on the question of a month. I do not subscribe to the view that the people of this country are anxious for a General Election. On the contrary, it is the last thing the people want, and, what is more than that, if. it is correct, as the right hon. Gentleman (Sir E. Carson) said, that this House only speaks for and represents 25 per cent, of the people, that is a very dangerous doctrine, because that would be a direct encouragement for the people to say that we do not speak in the name of the country, and, consequently, they would disobey the law, because, after all, whether the register is a new one or a stale one, whether this House of Commons has been elected for twelve months or five years, I think there is no Member in any ' part of the House who does not recognise frankly that the laws passed by this House must of necessity be observed. Therefore, for the moment we have to keep that point clearly in mind. It is quite true to say that there is no Member of the House, and certainly no party in the House, which-was elected on the issue that is before the-country at this moment.

    The War. I frankly admit there is no party which could claim that it has any mandate in connection with the War. But, on the other hand, I think it will be generally admitted that, when the War did break out, all parties subordinated their party views and concentrated on the War, and, after all, that was the nearest reflex to the opinion of the country that we could possibly get. On the other hand, I am bound to say that to come down in four, or five, or six months and ask for a new lease of life is not a very dignified procedure. But, whilst I admit that no one wants a General Election, I equally agree that it would be highly dangerous in the best interests of the country, and in the settlement of the War, if it was known that there could not be a General Election, and, therefore, it appears to me, taking both those points together, whilst the prospect of an election ought always to be before the Government, it is equally necessary to say that the election itself would be useless unless we immediately take in hand the register so that it can be ready when an election takes place. I do not think the House ought to quibble over a month, because that is, after all, what we are debating at this moment. I think if the Government determined on eight months originally they ought to have done so for good and sufficient reasons, and it would be much better to stick to it.

    I really think there is not so very much difference between the two sides. Everyone agrees that an election would be most undesirable, very confusing and upsetting, but everyone seemed to be agreed yesterday that events might occur which would make a General Election necessary and imperative. Therefore what we have to try to arrive at is a date which if he had to have an election will be at least disturbing to the country.

    But there is a point surely which is confusing to hon. Members opposite. They seem to think that if we extend the life of this Parliament six or eight months we must of necessity have an election then. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO!"] It seems to me that is the way they have been arguing. We all agree that a General Election would be inconvenient. We all agree, surely, that such events may occur as may necessitate a General Election. Therefore let us try to arrange a date which will be least inconvenient. I cannot imagine any date more inconvenient than that selected by the Government.

    I do not know. The end of May means the middle or the height of the spring offensive, if we have one. Surely if we are to have an election we ought to have it during the time hostilities are less active, which is rather in the winter than in the spring. I grant hon. Members that we do not want an election, but they surely granted yesterday that an election might be necessary, and therefore, with that contingency in view, let us try to select a date which will interfere least with operations in France. Therefore, if we wait until the spring we are selecting a date which will be most inconvenient for a country which is interested so closely in what takes place in France and elsewhere. When we talk of four months or six months or eight months we are speaking of a period which is not very long normally, but surely we are forgetting the fact that a month now with the great events that are occurring is really as important as a year in ordinary times. As much happens in a month now as happened formerly in a whole year. I think in view of general convenience and in the interests of the country and of the War, it is far better to have a shorter period than the period which is suggested by the Government.

    The Amendment before the Committee is that the House should take power now to sit until six months after the War.

    That is not so. The House can always be dissolved by the King on the advice of his Ministers.

    I am sure we are indebted to the hon. Gentleman for giving us such a very important piece of information. What I said was that the Amendment proposed by the hon. Member proposes to give power to this Parliament to sit for six months after the termination of the War.

    I think the House understands the position. If the hon. Member reads his Amendment he will see exactly what it means. I think the view of the House is that that is not an Amendment that could be accepted. The Prime Minister did not give it very much support or encouragement. It means that no matter how long this War goes on—and who is to say how long the War is going on: two years, three years, four years, as some very important people think it will do—we shall go on in this House as if we still represent the whole country, although our mandate has terminated. That Amendment will not do. It shuts the door with a bang against our soldiers having a vote at the election when it does take place, because they would obviously not be back in time. No one supposes that the moment the War is over the soldiers are going to be brought back. Peace negotiations will take place, and, according to precedent, they will last four, six, or eight months. So that when the election took place it would not be possible for the soldiers to take part in it. I regard that Amendment as dead, and I come to the real issue before the Committee. The right hon. Gentleman (Sir E. Carson) suggested the 31st March. I have been amused to hear the statement, cheered by almost every Minister on the Front Bench, that the 31st March is a most impossible date—perhaps the most impossible date in the Calendar. They know that that is nonsense. They know that if the House and the country knew that a General Election was coming on the 31st March they would get the whole of their Supply in an hour.

    The difficulty is that time would have to be taken up in March to pass another Bill, assuming that Parliament is to go on.

    If the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman (Sir E. Carson) was accepted that this Parliament was to end on 31st March, we should know throughout the whole of March that the election was coming.

    I understand that the difficulty about the 31st March is not that an election should take place at that period, but that if we decided earlier in March that it was undesirable to have an election at the end of March, we should have to pass another Bill to prolong the life of Parliament when we were wholly occupied with financial business.

    The hon. Member is mistaken. If the Amendment was accepted and the 31st March was the date, it would mean that if there was to be an extension there would be a repetition of this discussion and we should probably extend the period, if we thought it advisable, in the course of a couple of hours or less. If the House was not minded to extend it—the circumstances outside this House would determine the decision of the House—we should know at the beginning of March whether there would be a General Election and Supply could be got through quickly. There are precedents for it. Right hon. and hon. Members have seen the whole of the Supply of the country go through almost in an hour. I have seen it go through —Committee one day, Report next day, without much more than five minutes being taken. I forget the time when it went through like that, but a General Election was in prospect. That is what would happen again. Any Government, with the knowledge in the mind of the House that there was a General Election pending, could get all the Supply they asked for without criticism. Hon. Members may question whether that is desirable or not, but they will agree with me that there are many things done under the Coalition Government which are not very desirable. Whether it is desirable or not, it is the fact that Supply has been got through in the way I have stated. Therefore, the objection to 31st March as an impossible date will not stand. With respect to the other argument about Easter, I cannot conceive a better time for an election, if there is to be one, than during the Easter holidays. The electors would have time to consider the points put before them. Therefore, I do not think that objection is fatal. The hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Denniss) was very severe as to whether this House represented the people of this country or not at the present time. I am not prepared to express an opinion one way or the other, but I would point out that the hon. Member does not represent the majority of his constituency.

    The majority voted for other candidates at the election at which the hon. Member was elected.

    If the right hon. Gentleman had followed the election at the time he would have found that on the calculation of the opposite party I got a clear majority.

    I am not going to pursue that. It is enough for me to take the figures as returned at that Table, and according to those figures the hon. Member was returned to represent a minority of the electors. There was a split and three candidates for one seat. However, that does not matter. I do not think there is any desire at the present time for an election. I think there was a much greater desire a short time ago, but I do not think it exists at the present time. There does exist a desire—I cannot go into it now—that the Government should make fewer blunders and show more vigour in carrying on the War. This is not so much a Government matter as a House matter. We have a Coalition Government with all the paraphernalia of organisation and influence, social and political, which they can bring to bear. They have enormous power in this House. They are deciding off that bench how long they ought to be able to remain in office, without the renewed authority in regard to the powers which they exercise. This Motion ought really to be left to the House itself, and the Government ought really not to take any part in the Division. I think that six months is a very reasonable time. What is the difference between six and seven? [HON. MEMBERS: "One!"] There is no real difference from the point of view of a Government who are anxious to please every section in this House, because they know perfectly well that they will get another six months if they behave themselves in the meantime. Why wrangle about it here at the present time? I deny that we have ever wrangled, but speaking for myself I say that we are entitled to express our views, when this proposal comes before us, as to what line I think should be adopted. We are told that in no possible conceivable circumstances can there ever be an election during the War. That is the position.

    The Prime Minister said so. He said that it would be most undesirable. If the Prime Minister's speech meant anything—and I am sorry that he is not here now because I do not want to misrepresent him—it meant "all the power I possess and all the power that my colleagues possess will be exercised towards preventing an election during the War." I want to ask the Colonial Secretary—because this is important—if he will he give us a definite pledge here and now that he will never be a party in any possible circumstances to advising a General Election during the continuance of the War? Of course, the Colonial Secretary can give no such promise. Neither will the Prime Minister nor any other member of the Cabinet, because they know perfectly well, in spite of all the protests about the terrible thing a General Election would be during the War, that if they thought it would suit their purpose at any moment next month or the month after, or three or four months after, they would advise His Majesty that there should be a Dissolution of Parliament, and you would have an election upon your old register. Why is it an old register? It is by the act of the Government. They themselves, by a measure which they introduced and which they pressed with all their authority upon this House, declared that all efforts to keep the register up to date must cease at that time. So they have the responsibility of having an old register at the present time. Therefore, they should take that into account in coming to the decision at which they arrive.

    I should like to have that promise from the Government, so as to understand the position, that they will use their influence in that direction if they get their way now, and that they will tell us they are not going to be parties to a General Election in the meantime. If they have a majority in this House, and they believe that it is an outrage to have an election upon a stale register, they can prevent it. Of course, if this Cabinet loses the confidence of this House, it is possible to have another Cabinet which might have the confidence of this House. I do not think that that is a very far-drawn, imaginative picture. They are not going to give us a promise with regard to that to-day. We must content ourselves with the fact that though they may have an election at any time, yet so far as they are concerned their desire is to extend Parliament. Between the eight and the six I do not think there is sufficient difference to have any great controversy about, but I think that the argument is on the side of six, because if they have our confidence they will get an extension later on. Of course, this whole business between seven and eight has been arranged on a split-the-difference principle. I think that it was oh my own Amendment, passed last year, that eight months was accepted, and having gone away from that precedent they say seven now on the principle of split the difference. I would ask whether, cm a matter of this kind, they would not say six? I do not think it worth prolonging the controversy upon it, but it would settle this matter.

    In one sense the discussion as between eight, seven, five, and four months seems very paltry indeed, but there is a principle of some value behind it. That is, that the prolongation by Parliament of its own existence ought to be very jealously watched. The rule ought to be to make the extension the minimum that is required by the circumstances of the case. I think that there is very great force in the point made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Plymouth (Major Astor) that that day fixed by the Bill would very probably coincide with the great supreme offensive. If, as is only too probable, the War is still going on next year, it would certainly be very undesirable that, at such a time as that, you should have the possibility of a General Election being forced. I hope that the Government will take that point into consideration. As regards the point that was made by the Prime Minister of the register not being ready at an earlier date than the end of May, I do hope that the result of the consideration of that Registration Bill will be the adoption of some speedier method of having a register prepared, even at the sacrifice of perfect accuracy—a register which is a mere stop-gap, as we have been told repeatedly. I think that some speedier method might perhaps be devised of having a register prepared, so that that objection disappears. As regards any date that may be fixed, I would remind hon. Members that there is no necessity to wait until the very last moment of the period, if it was desirable that there should be a further prolongation, and that you could bring in a measure without waiting until the eleventh hour had struck; so that there is really nothing in that. In the circumstances I hope that the House will realise the desirability of making the, period as short as possible.

    The right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down referred to the prognostications of the hon. and gallant Member for Plymouth about the spring offensive and the date of 31st May. Everybody would know, at least those in authority would know, weeks before that there were military operations intended which would make it intolerable to have an election here at the same time. That, of course, could be provided for. What has not been touched on by those speakers who are anxious to shorten the period as much as possible is this, that when the question of armaments is coming to an end it will either entail a General Election or, entailing the sort of controversy we have had in this House this week, has a very bad effect upon the country in time of war. The nearer we are getting to the time of an election the more the time and attention of the people will be taken away from what is going on in connection with the War to consider other matters. The reason why a large number of us would have a prolongation for a longer period of time is that we should not have these constant intervals of unrest in the country as to what is going to happen in this House and what is going to happen with regard to elections. It seems to me that a good deal of indifferent sense has been talked about the question of prolonging Parliament to a period inside seven years. This Parliament in which we are now sitting was made a quinquennial Parliament under the Parliament Act, in order to make the House, which had then reduced the Lords' Veto to a suspensory one, go back earlier to the electors. The issues between us and the House of Lords have ceased during the War, and the very circumstances which led to the quinquennial Parliament are not now with us, and we are therefore in circumstances far more analogous-to those which, many years ago, existed between the two Houses, and when the period of seven years was a most reasonable one to have.

    9.0 P.M.

    In common with several other Members of this House, I have put down an Amendment to extend the period to twelve months, and I have done that because I want to avoid that unrest in the country, which is so injurious to the proper prosecution of the War. I imagine that the right hon. Member for Dundee and the j right hon. and learned Gentleman the; Member for Trinity College may want the period to come down to three months or two months, and I can perfectly under stand the attractions that has to' the right hon. Gentlemen, who would devote themselves to criticism of the Government, and I am bound to say that they do it with great flexibility on almost every conceivable subject. But there are others among us who have no taste for this miscellaneous criticism, and who are devoting themselves to war work in the country, and do not wish to be disturbed in that work. We have had enough of these rumours, and alarms, and excursions which are so dear to some right hon. Gentlemen opposite. Those of us who propose twelve months are perfectly prepared to divide the House in that sense. I regret that the Prime Minister has altered the terms of the Bill at all. I support the Coalition Ministry, which undoubtedly comprises a very great variety of temperament and experience, but, when they have put a date like this in the Bill, I think they might well be asked to stick to that date which had been considered by them. I regret that the Prime Minister has offered terms, and I regret still more the manner in which the offer was received. The right hon. and learned Member for Trinity College seems to have experienced a momentary pleasure at some jest on this side.

    I cannot imagine the right hon. Gentleman, who was the ingenious creator of the joke, did not see it himself. The point is this: The Prime Minister has offered a compromise which apparently has been rejected, and therefore I hope that the Prime Minister will at least stick to the original date in the Bill. He is asking a good deal from many Members of this House, and I submit that we have had enough disturbance of matters in the country. The right hon. Gentleman should keep to the eight months, though I should have preferred to have extended the period, and would have voted, for it against any opposition.

    I should be glad if the Committee will come to a decision now. We are fighting about a very small matter; the difference between six months or eight months is a very small thing, and I thought I had offered a reasonable via media. The destinies of the country during the War are not likely to be seriously affected whether Parliament prolongs its existence to 30th April or to a later date. I venture to appeal to the Committee to come to a decision on this very' reasonable proposal which has been submitted.

    I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman, before we go to a Division, whether it is proposed to put on the Government Whips?

    In that case I shall take the liberty of making one or two observations.

    I think that was so, and if the hon. Gentleman desires to proceed with his remarks, of course he is entitled to do so.

    I do desire to do so, and I shall be only three minutes. I understood that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee intervened to ask a question; then, not receiving a satisfactory answer, he claimed to make a speech. What is the practical point we are considering? Nobody contemplates that a General Election will take place in the course of any period which is contemplated by any of these Amendments, and really the practical question to discuss is when are the Government to come back to ask for a further extension of the life of Parliament? That is really the only practical question, When shall the Government come back again for a further lease of life? Shall they come back some time in March or April, or shall they come back in May? The object of their coming back, and of our giving them a short time in which they have got to come back, is that there may be an opportunity for criticism. We must not give too long a time, because we should lose the opportunity we should otherwise have of criticising them, and taking such steps as might be in the country's interest. May I project our minds to the practical course of business next year?

    I suppose we shall be sitting in January or early in February, and we begin with the Supplementary Estimates, and the like, and these offer the greatest opportunity of criticism of almost any business that we do throughout the year, and therefore throughout February and throughout March we would secure almost day after day the opportunity of constant criticism of the Government. If you really think of the ordinary working of the system of business, am I not right in saying that during February and during March there is abundant opportunity for criticism of all Departments, and all measures taken by the Government. I believe I shall secure general assent to that. Does it make very much difference whether they also have to come back to ask for a new extension of the life of Parliament in February or in March or in April? Mark you, if we go on sitting until April, we have then to begin the Budget, and I should think that that is a very inconvenient date to bring the question of the life of Parliament up again. My hon. and gallant Friend below the Gangway has given us a very good reason why you should not have that in May. It really is a very tiny matter. I should think that the Government would be glad to agree to some date in March, and if not, I think it would probably be better to have a still longer period, and say June rather than April or May. Can we not really agree that the practical point we have got to consider is whether the opportunity we desire to criticise the Government shall be in March or in April? I venture to suggest that at the present moment we might all go to dinner and agree on the 31st March, and if the Government do not agree to that, the 30th April. I am not sure that it is really worth staying from dinner to discuss that point. I do not believe that individual Members could give any valid reason why they refused the 30th April and voted for the 31st March.

    I must express my regret to the hon. and learned Member who has just spoken. I did not realise that he had commenced his argument and otherwise I certainly should not have intervened. I wish to draw the attention of the House to the very unsatisfactory manner in which this question is approached in certain quarters. The Government have decided to put on Government Whips, and to represent this matter as one in which they are specially interested. Surely that is a very great mistake from their point of view, and surely it is a very great mistake from the point of view of their supporters who have spoken with so much enthusiasm and fervour this afternoon. Why should they represent the Government as being a class of persons specially desirous of prolonging the life of Parliament at all costs, and having a special interest in the matter, and why should my hon. Friend the Member for Middleton (Sir It. Adkins) come down and think that he is going to win the smiles of the Government by pressing the longest possible date for the avoidance of an election? I think it is putting the Government in a very undignified position, and I dare say Ministers have been saying to themselves, "Save us from our friends." The Government has no more interest in this matter than the House. That is the only decent way of looking at the question. We are all salaried Members here, Members of a salaried Parliament, and our prolongation of its life is a matter which we should undertake, I think, with modesty and sparingly, and not as if we wished to be as greedy of our tenure as possible. I think the Government are extremely ill-advised to handle this matter in this way. They would not be put to the least inconvenience if they took four months, and then asked for another short Bill to go through, and, as my right hon. Friend said, it would only be a matter of an hour, or an hour and a half's discussion. Surely, if there is a difference of opinion in the matter, good feeling and good taste should lead the members of the Government not to be over eager to take the most favourable position for themselves, but to allow Parliament in the New Year to come to a fresh decision. I think it is very likely that Parliament will have to be prolonged to a date much longer than those mentioned. I think it is a matter which should be sparingly dealt with and decently dealt with in a dignified spirit. I do trust that the Government are not going to put themselves in the invidious position of putting on the Whips of all the caucuses in the country in order to make sure that they get a month or two more, and that their power of remaining in office is to be prolonged when they could rely on getting an extension of time whenever the circumstances of the case demanded it.

    I really do not think that any of us who have listened to this Debate have much reason to be proud of the display which the House of Commons is making. The right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has given us two very valuable lessons, which come with great effect from him. One is, that we should all conduct ourselves with becoming modesty, which is good advice wherever it comes from. The other is that we are committing an unpardonable offence in proposing to put on the Government Whips for a Government Bill. It may be worth while to note in passing that this is the same right hon. Gentleman who told us yesterday that all that the House of Commons wanted the Government to do was to give a lead and say what they wanted.

    I was coming to that. The right hon. Gentleman said that we should give a lead, and tell the House of Commons what we wanted. I am not the least afraid of the insinuations which the right hon. Gentleman has just made that we have given away something by agreeing to seven months. We do not look upon this as a matter of any consequence whatever to the Government. In that respect the right hon. Gentleman was perfectly right, and the Committee, I think, will see why if they think of the matter for a moment. The point of view of those who are criticising is that this is in some way going to extend the life of the Government. It is quite obvious to anyone who knows the House of Commons that there is not a fraction of truth in it, for the moment the House of Commons is dissatisfied they can find many other ways of expressing their dissatisfaction, and getting rid of the Government. It is, therefore, not a question between the House of Commons and the Government. It is simply a question of what the House of Commons itself ought to do. I am quite ready to accept the view of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Trinity College (Sir E. Carson) that it is an invidious thing even in time of war for us to prolong our own existence to a greater extent than the public convenience requires. I am quite willing to agree with that. The Prime Minister pointed out the day before yesterday that we fixed on eight months partly because it was the precedent of last year and partly because we thought the Register Bill could not be got through earlier. Now we find there was a distinct inconvenience in having this discussion in March. The right bon. Gentleman the Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel) said that it would only take two hours. That all depends on the opposition, even though the number is small. What we have seen this evening is an example of the length of time which may be taken by a discussion of that kind. Surely the balance of convenience is in favour of having it at the end of March. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Churchill) says that we have only been an hour, or an hour and a half, on this, but it has been over a very small point. There is, I think, very little disposition in the House as a whole to interfere with the general proposals we are making. That is my view, but it might quite well be that just when we wanted the time, as everybody acquainted with the conduct of the Government knows, that that was the very period when we had to introduce a Bill of this kind. Is there anything in this that is worth while, unless the object of those who are making the opposition is to arrest or get rid of the Government? If that is the object they have in view, let it be on a bigger issue than this. For that reason, since the Prime Minister did think that seven months was a sufficient length of time, I am not going to propose to adopt the suggestion of my hon. Friend behind me and say, "Since those who think six months is better are not willing to accept the seven months, we will go back to eight months." That does not seem to be reasonable, and we wish to deal with this matter in a reasonable way from every point of view. All I wish to say further is that there is certainly no hidden argument in connection with this matter which the House of Commons has not already had before it. If hon. Gentlemen wish to have a Division, let us have it; but at all events let us have done with this subject and get on with something else.

    In order that the Government's proposal may be tested, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.

    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

    I beg to move to leave out the words "and four months."

    I think that four months is certainly quite long enough to renew the life of this Parliament. In my opinion, it is quite long enough to get a fair register if the Government would try. But they have regularly neglected the register, and it is entirely their fault that there is not a register ready now. When the register is prepared I think there ought to be a General Election at once. The longer an election is delayed, the more unrepresentative will the House of Commons become. This Parliament was elected in January, 1911, and it deliberately smashed the Constitution for the express purpose of destroying the other House and making its Ministerial Leaders absolutely supreme. This was done, however, on the definite condition that it would not continue its existence beyond five years, and that at the end of that time the people should undoubtedly have an opportunity of electing another Government if they so wished. That was the compact, but it has already been broken once, and the House is apparently going to break it again for another eight months, and without even preparing a decent register. The Government certainly cannot pretend that they are popular in the country. But they are going to try and hang on by this plan of theirs on the plea that they are indispensable and that a General Election is un thinkable. That is just what the Government said about war with Germany; they said it was unthinkable. Surely if Parliament can afford the time to take a six weeks' holiday it can afford three or four weeks for a General Election to give the people an opportunity of saying whether they approve of this eight months' prolongation of power for what has, after all, become nothing but an outworn, effete oligarchy, acting for I self, drawing its salaries, and no longer reflecting the will of the people. At all events, that is how I look at it. Surely there have been plenty of by-elections. Ministers could quite well stay at their posts while the General Election was going on. If they have done their duty hey may be quite sure the people would re-elect them. If this Clause passes the great probability is that the present Government, in spite of all their blunders—and some of them criminal blunders from the amount of life that has been lost—

    This seems to be a speech against the Second Reading of the Bill. We have decided chat there is to be an extension, and we have now to deal only with the question of how many months.

    If this Parliament is prolonged for eight months it seems to me that the terms of peace are almost sure to be regulated by this Government. For that reason I do not want it to be prolonged for as long as eight months. I hope that is in order. My right hon. Friend the Member for Dublin University is quite of my opinion that it would be a far worse misfortune to have the life of the Government prolonged over the peace terms than it would be to have a General Election. If the life of this Parliament is to be prolonged it should be for as short a time as possible, so long as you can prepare a register. If this Amendment is not carried there will be little or no chance of getting this Government out until, if the War is still going on, another great offensive movement will have been begun, and we shall have the old excuse over again that this great offensive movement must not be deterred by a General Election. After the frightful blunders this Government have committed and their various fins of omission and commission, I think it is surely necessary to make the term of prolongation, if its life must be prolonged, as short as possible.

    On a point of Order, Mr. Chairman. Is the hon. Member in order in reading his speech?

    I really was not altogether reading it. The hon. Member need not be so critical. I have seen Ministers with typewritten copies in front of them doing a goodish bid of reading.

    Unless we have this Clause amended we have got to extend the life of this Government for another eight months, because it has been put about in the Censorship and muzzled Press, and amongst the "mugwumps" of both parties that an election during the War is absolutely unthinkable. I quoted the precedent of the case of Lincoln, which tends to show exactly the reverse. We heard yesterday about Solomon, and we are told that the Prime Minister is the only person who can preserve—

    It is as I expected. The hon. Member's remarks have slipped over from the Second Reading.

    I will finish in about a dozen words—if I get the chance of getting them out. I think that the Government is most unsatisfactory. It certainly ought not to be prolonged any longer than necessary. People, I think, are very anxious to bring it to an end, and I beg to move.

    Amendment negatived.

    I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the word "four" ["six years and four months"], and to insert instead thereof the word "three."

    Perhaps it would be the simpler way if we were to take one Division instead of two—

    I assume so. I hope this—and I say it quite frankly—after all the time that has been occupied we will take the course of having a Division.

    I am sorry that my right hon. Friend has begun to be a little hasty in his temper. I do not think it is of the slightest use. The Government, for the first time this Session, have absolutely made up their minds that they would show a bold front on a question of one month's duration. I congratulate my right hon. Friend that on this question we have had a lead from the Government. It is not a very big one. My right hon. Friend is quite wrong in supposing that he has any right to dictate to us whether he will or will not have a Division. We can do our own business in our own way, and perhaps we can do it just as well as the Government do theirs, or most of it. The Prime Minister said that he would agree to seven months instead of eight, and all I said was that I should move six months instead of seven.

    May. I remind my right hon. and learned Friend of the words of the right hon. Gentleman who sits beside him?

    Do not let us get into a dispute over the matter. I think it is a great pity that we have had this dispute. This is a kind of matter in which, when you are prolonging the life of Parliament, the Government might have met us fairly. It would not have made the slightest difference to them. It was only because we were on the eve of the Adjournment that they wanted to appear strong over this matter. So far as I am concerned, we must leave out the word "four," and then, of course, the other can be moved.

    The confusion has arisen entirely through the Government taking up the attitude that they must put on the organisation of the two great parties in this country to get a prolongation of one month more than we ask. It is one of the most absurd things that could have happened in the House of Commons.

    Amendment agreed to.

    Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

    I would explain that my Amendment is really one to redraft this first Clause. I move this Amendment as a protest against the manner of the drafting of this Clause, which is a very conspicuous example of the manner of drafting which is becoming more and more common in our Acts of Parliament. It is known as legislation by reference. Just let me show the Commitee how this matter has grown. Section 7 of the Parliament Act upon, which all these subsequent Amendment are built, says:

    "Five years shall be substituted for seven years as the time fixed for the maximum duration of Parliament under the Septennial Act, 1715."
    Everybody knows the Septennial Act, and it does not require any great research amongst law books to discover the meaning of the Section I have quoted. The next Act was the amending Act passed at the end of last Session, the Parliament and Registration Act, 1916. The first Section of that Act said:
    "Section seven of the Parliament Act, 1911, shall in its application to the present Parliament have the effect as if five years and eight months were substituted for five years."
    It seems to me perfectly clear that that Clause of that Act might have been drafted in a very much simpler form. The draftsmen of these Bills are, and have been for a long time, gradually building up a sort of Rabbinical code known to themselves and utterly unknown to the general public, and it is a matter of vital importance that the man-in-the-street, our old friend, should be able to look at an Act of Parliament and, in nine cases out of ten, get some sort of meaning out of what he reads there. Now we come to the Bill before the House, the first Clause of which says:
    "Sub-section (1) of Section one of the Parliament and Registration Act, 1916, shall have effect as if six years and four months were substituted therein for five years and eight months."
    Could any ordinary person not conversant with the ways of draftsmen, and without having a library of law books at hand, get any meaning whatever out of that Clause? The substituted words which, I submit, enact exactly the same thing in language which, I think, is a great deal simpler, are as follows:
    "Notwithstanding anything in the Parliament Act, 1911, or any subsequent Act, six years and two months shall as applied to the present Parliament be the time fixed for the maximum duration of Parliament."
    It goes back to the terms used in the Parliament Act, 1911, and uses the same form in this Bill. I cannot imagine there can be any possible objection to that form of words. No one can argue that simplicity is a matter of no importance, and if the purport is exactly the same—and I do not think the learned Solicitor-General is likely to deny it—can anyone deny that the simpler form of words, going back to the original Statute, the foundation of all the Acts, is not a much better form? Therefore, I beg to move, "That the Clause do not stand part, of the Bill. "I believe that is the only way in which I can move in order that I may substitute the form of words I have read to the Committee.

    The question before the Committee is, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

    May I request, at all events, the courtesy, if nothing else, of some reply from the Government? I have submitted to the Committee an argument. It may be a perfectly worthless argument and perfectly foolish, but I think one of my learned Friends on the Front Bench might have the courtesy, at all events, to point out where the folly lies before the Motion is actually put.

    No one could accuse my hon. Friend of any folly in any shape or form. There has been some delay in answering him because I have only just got hold of the form of the Clause to which he has referred. The matter is a very simple one. Whereas the original term fixed by the Parliament Act, 1911, was five years, we, at the beginning of this year, put in its place the term of five years and eight months. Now we propose to put in the place of five- years and eight months the term of six years and three months. I notice my hon. Friend's form proposes six years and two months, whereas we take? six years and three months. I do not think anyone who follows these Acts would have the least trouble in ascertaining the effect.

    Of course, it can be made out, but I think, as far as possible, Acts of Parliament should be in ordinary English.

    Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 2—(Further Postponement Of Local Elections)

    (1)The next statutory elections of county and borough councillors, district councillors, guardians, and parish councillors, and of members of school boards in Scotland, shall be postponed, or, in the case of elections already postponed under the Elections and Registration Act, 1915, further postponed, for a year; and the term of office of the existing councillors, guardians, and members shall accordingly be extended, or further extended, by one year.

    This provision shall apply only where the next statutory election (whether a postponed election or not) would take place before the first day of June, nineteen hundred and seventeen, or in Ireland before the twentieth day of May, nineteen hundred and seventeen.

    (2) Sub-sections (3), (4), (5) and (6) of Section one of the Elections and Registration Act, 1915, shall apply to the foregoing Sub-section as they apply to the provisions of that Section with the substitution of the year nineteen hundred and seventeen for the year nineteen hundred and sixteen.

    (3) Section seventeen of the Local Government (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1916 which amends the Elections and Registration Act, 1915, with respect to casual vacancies), shall have effect as if this Act were mentioned as well as the Elections and Registration Act, 1915, in Sub-section (1) thereof, as if two years were substituted for one year in Sub-section (2) thereof.

    (4) Section thirty-six of the Municipal Corporations Act, 1882, and any other enactment making the payment of a fine a condition of resigning any office, shall not have effect so as to require the payment of a fine in the case of a councillor, guardian, or member of a local or other body who resigns any office after the date on which his term of office would, but for the provisions of the Elections and Registration Act, 1915, pr this Act, have expired.

    (5) Nothing in this Section shall operate to continue in Scotland any councillor in the office of bailie beyond the date at which he would in ordinary course have retired as a councillor.

    I beg to move, in Subsection (4), after the word "member"["or member of a local"], to insert the words "or elective auditor."

    This is to make it clear that the Clause applies not only to members of those bodies, but to the elective auditor as well.

    Amendment agreed to.

    Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 3—(Removal Of Restriction As To Steps To Be Taken For Preparation Of Registers)

    Notwithstanding anything in Section two of the Parliament and Registration Act, 1916, or any other Act, any steps may be taken in September and October for the purpose of the preparation of a new Parliamentary and local government register of electors as are required to be taken under the Acts relating to the registration of electors to be taken in April and May.

    Amendment made: Leave out the words "to be taken" ["registration of electors to be taken"].— [ Sir G. Cave.]

    Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    CLAUSES 4 ( Revision of Jurors' Lists in Ireland) and 5 ( Short Title) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    New Clause—(Repeal Of Sub-Section (2) Of Section 1 Of Act Of 1916)

    Sub-section (2) of Section one of the Parliament and Local Elections Act, 1916, is hereby repealed.—[ Sir F. Banbury.]

    Clause brought up, and read the first time.

    I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."

    I do not intend to press this Clause if the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Colonies, who, I believe, is now leading the House, will give me an assurance that the Plural Voting Bill will not be introduced by the Government during the period for which this Bill prolongs the life of this Parliament.

    This is our old friend the Plural Voting Bill, about which the Committee will remember I had the misfortune at the time to make a long speech this year. I am glad to say that nothing of the kind is necessary now. It must be obvious to every Member of the House that it is utterly inconceivable that, during the period of seven months we are contemplating to prolong the life of this Parliament, the Government should leave the work of the War in order to introduce a party measure of this kind. I mentioned to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister that my right hon. Friend opposite, with that careful regard to possibilities which always distinguishes him, intended to move this Clause, and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister authorised me at once to say that there was no question whatever of this Government introducing this measure during the period of the extension of the life of this Parliament.

    In those circumstances, I ask leave to withdraw the proposed new Clause.

    Proposed Clause and Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

    With regard to the new Clause standing in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University (Duration of new Parliament)—

    I will explain that point. There are two other Clauses of the same kind which propose to put in this Bill conditions as to the term of this Parliament, and of the next Parliament. One of them proposes that if a Parliament is elected and if there is a General Election during the present War, that Parliament shall continue only for a period of twelve months after the declaration of peace. There is another new Clause which has been handed in which proposes that if a Parliament is elected before women's-suffrage has been provided for, that Parliament shall also only exist for a limited time. It seems to me that all these proposals are opposed to the scope of the Bill, and are not in order, and if a proposal of that sort is to be considered it must appear in a separate measure.

    I understood that the Government were going to make some kind of declaration on this point, and I am anxious that that declaration should be got from the Government if possible.

    That can be done on the Third Beading. I may say that I communicated my decision in regard to these new Clauses to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University some four or five hours ago.

    Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended, considered.

    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."

    Perhaps I may now be allowed to refer to this disorderly Clause, upon which I wish to elicit some declaration from the Government. I think this new Clause would have been a great advantage, and it explains itself as well as any amount of argument what is its scope and purpose. It contains within its own language the defence and justification of the proposal, and I should like to know-before the Bill is read a third time whether the idea of such a limitation has any sympathy from the Government?

    I gather that the object of my right hon. and learned Friend (Sir E. Carson) was to avoid the possibility of a Parliament elected under the present registration conditions continuing for an unlimited time. If we find any immediate reason or prospect of that, the Government would be prepared to deal with it by a separate proposal which they themselves would bring forward. I hope that will meet the view of the right hon. Gentleman opposite, and I may say that it is not our intention to take advantage of any measure of this kind to secure the election of a Parliament for the ordinary period upon a register which we have ourselves admitted to be unsuitable.

    I wish to point out, in regard to this measure, how entirely different is the position of Ireland. This Bill may suit two of the three Kingdoms, but there is no need for it so far as Ireland is concerned. In Ireland the number of voters is not large as compared with England and Scotland, and, therefore, so far as Ireland is concerned, there is no necessity and no reason whatever why the preparation of the register should not have gone on in the old way. I know I am liable to be taunted as to the reason of that state of things, but I cannot help that. I can only give my opinion that, so far as the present representation of Ireland is concerned, it is entirely out of date, and I express the opinion that the sooner a Dissolution occurs in Ireland the better for that country and the better for this country, because I believe that the entirely Irish representation is absolutely effete, and most of the hon. Members now sitting and posing here as speaking for Ireland will be simply swept from their constituencies. I do view with great alarm the fact that this Bill secures the prolongation of those Irish representatives here and their £400 a year for another eight months, and I think it is greatly to be deplored that this money should be paid under false pretences.

    I do not know whether the House will take the speech of the hon. and learned Member for Cork to which we have just listened as requiring any reply from these benches. I would like to assure the hon. and learned Member for Cork that when he is in a position to tell us that he is not drawing his £400 a year his influence will have very much more weight with the members of the Irish party to which I belong. The hon. and learned Member for Cork does not hesitate to give very freely his opinion to the House as to what will happen if there is a General Election. He told us a few hours ago, on the Dublin Reconstruction Bill, that if there were an election in Dublin for the Dublin Corporation three-quarters of the members of that body would not be reelected again. Now he tells us, on this Parliament Bill, that if there were a General Election in Ireland the whole of the party to which I belong would be practically swept away.

    We have heard allegations of this sort before from the hon. and learned Member and his leader, the senior Member for the City of Cork (Mr. W. O'Brien), not in recent months, but many times during the past few years. They got their opportunity at the two elections in 1910, and the only result was that the hon. and learned Member for Cork (Mr. Healy) was unseated for North Louth, and he had to go> and look for a seat in the South of Ireland in the county of Cork. There is one other matter to which I would like to-draw the attention of the Government. We were asked from the Front Opposition Bench whether on the new Clause that stood in the name of the senior Member for Trinity College the Government would make an announcement of their policy in, that connection. I also gave notice of a new Clause which came under the same ruling as that of the senior Member for Trinity College, and if anything is to be done in that respect I hope the Government will consider whether the proposal which I put forward could not be accepted. I do not think, as the Clause put down by the right hon. and learned Member for Dublin University was not in order, that I should be in order in referring to it, but if that matter is reconsidered, I hope the Government will review the whole position, and see whether any Parliament which is to be elected during the continuance of this War shall not be used, or allowed to be used, when the War is over for party politics when it has been elected on war issues.

    Question put, and agreed to.

    Bill read the third time, and passed.

    Law And Pkocedure (Emergency Provisions) (Ireland) Bill

    Considered in Committee.

    [Mr. J. H. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

    Clause 1—(Amendment Of Law And Procedure)

    (1) The period commencing on the beginning of the twenty-fourth day of April, nineteen hundred and sixteen, and ending at the end of the 8th day of May, nineteen hundred and sixteen, shall not be reckoned, and shall be deemed never to have been reckoned, in computing the times limited for the doing of any act or the taking of any proceeding in any Court in Ireland, and where any such act or proceeding is directed or allowed to be done on a certain day, if that day was a day within the period aforesaid, the act or proceeding shall be considered as done or taken in due time if it was done or taken before the end of the ninth day of May, nineteen hundred and sixteen.

    (2) Where the Court is satisfied on an application made within the prescribed time and in the prescribed manner that by reason of the recent disturbances in Ireland any person has been or is unable to do an act or take a proceeding within the time limited in that behalf by any statute, order, regulation, deed, or agreement, the Court may grant such extension? of time and such further or other relief, upon such terms and in such manner as Appears to the Court to be equitable.

    (3) Where any original document required to be filed, enrolled or lodged in any public office has been lost or destroyed in the course of the recent disturbances in Ireland, the High Court or a judge of that Court may on the application of any person interested by order authorise the filing, enrolment or lodgment of a properly authenticated copy of the document in lieu of the original within such time as may be fixed by the order, and that copy shall thereupon be deemed to be the original for all purposes and to be duly filed, enrolled or lodged if filed, enrolled or lodged within the time so fixed.

    (4) Subject to rules made under this Act the powers and jurisdiction of the High Court with respect to the perpetuation of testimony shall extend to and may be exercised for the perpetuation of the testimony afforded by any muniment of title or other document which has been lost, destroyed or damaged in the course of the recent disturbances in Ireland whether the right or claim of the person instituting proceedings is a present right or claim or depends upon the happening of some future event.

    (5) Sub-sections (2) and (3) of Section one of the Courts (Emergency Powers) Act, 1914, shall be amended by the insertion of the words "or to the recent disturbances in Ireland" after the words "present war" wherever the latter words occur in those Sub-sections.

    (6) No claim for compensation under any of the enactments relative to compensation for criminal or malicious injuries shall lie against a local authority in respect of any injury to person or property sustained in the course of the recent disturbances in Ireland.

    (7) In any action or proceeding for the recovery of a deed or other document, or for damages for its loss or non-production, it shall be a sufficient defence if it is proved that the deed or other document, being at the time of the commencement of the recent disturbances in Ireland in the possession or under the control of a person entitled to have the possession or control thereof, was lost or destroyed in the course and as a result of those disturbances.

    (8) The Lord Chancellor may make such rules and give such directions as he thinks fit for the purpose of giving full effect to the provisions of this Act.

    (9) This Act shall not apply to criminal matters or proceedings.

    (10)In this Act, unless the context other wise requires,—

    the expression "the Court, "as respects matters and proceedings pending in the County Court and as respects matters and proceedings within the jurisdiction of the County Court and not pending in any other Court, means the County Court; as. respects matters and proceedings pending in a Court of Quarter Sessions; means the Court of Quarter Sessions; and as respects all other matters and proceedings, means the High Court or a judge of that Court; and

    the expression "prescribed" means prescribed by rules under this Section.

    I rise to move, in Subsection (6), at the end, to insert the words "But all such claims shall stand referred to the Property Losses (Ireland) Committee, 1916, who shall be entitled to make grants therefor from the ex gratiâ fund."

    I do not bring forward this Amendment in any spirit of hostility to the Dublin Corporation; indeed, I hope that I shall not be out of order in saying, as one who owns considerable property in the City of Dublin, that it has been a grief to me to hear the suggestions that have been made with regard to the corporation. I am asking the Chief Secretary by my Amendment to accept the suggestion that Sir William Goulding's Committee, should take upon itself the investigation and consideration of all those legal claims which, had it not been for Sub-section (6) would have come before the corporation and for which the corporation would have been liable.

    I did not quite comprehend from the hon. Member's Amendment on the Paper what this Committee was—I am afraid it was my ignorance—but if the funds of this Committee come out of the public Exchequer—

    Then in that case the hon Member cannot move his Amendment without a Money Resolution.

    My Amendment is that they should consider these claims and be entitled to make Grants from the ex gratiâfund.

    On that point of Order. There is nothing before you to show in any way by any Statute or otherwise that the Goulding Committee is going to make a reward out of the public fund, and you are therefore assuming that of which we have no knowledge and cannot have any knowledge. All that we know is that the Committee is sitting, but the source from which the money is to come has not in any sense been ear-marked.

    It is my business to inquire. I am quite sure about that. I have to be very careful that no charge is imposed upon the public funds without the proper procedure in Committee. I am afraid that the Amendment cannot be moved.

    On the point of Order. May I submit to you that we have no knowledge that there is such a fund? It is not created by Statute. The Goulding Committee is not sitting under Statute. For all you or I know the money may come from some benevolent source. Surely, that being so, this Amendment does not thereby involve a charge upon the public funds.

    10.0 P.M.

    I can get what I want in another manner. I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (6). This will enable me to get a statement from the Chief Secretary as to what is going to be done with regard to these claims that have to be made. I have not the slightest desire that any liability should be assumed by the corporation. It is only fair and just, having regard to all the circumstances, that the State should assume the whole of the liability for this very unfortunate rebellion in Ireland. You must, however, be fair, and it is only fair when you are going to make Grants that those who have legal claims should be entitled to put those claims before the Goulding Committee. I would ask the Attorney-General, who is a lawyer, how it is, when the citizens of Dublin have insured against the breakage of plate glass, that the Goulding Committee is not to consider those claims in the same way as all other claims? Surely the right hon. Gentleman is aware, if any plate-glass insurance company has a contract for insurance with an insured person that it is entitled to stand in the shoes of that insured person. Why is it, therefore, that this Committee, as Sir William Goulding himself told me last Friday in Dublin, is to be excluded by the minute—

    On a point of Order. Is the hon. Member entitled to discuss what the Goulding Committee can or cannot do on this Bill?

    I do not think that he is entitled to discuss the merits, but I do think that he is entitled on moving to leave out Sub-section (6), which refers to certain compensation, to ask a question.

    I am in an unfortunate position. I have been stopped, and I have got to do it by a roundabout way. I have not the slightest intention of asking the Committee not to accept Sub-section (6), but this is the only way I can bring before the Chief Secretary the injustice of not allowing this Committee to consider this question of plate glass. I had the opportunity last Friday in Dublin, and again this morning, of placing my views before the Chief Secretary, and I can only thank him for the very courteous reception that he gave me. He is fully acquainted with the facts, and I need not say any more. In 1886, when the riots took place in Trafalgar Square and legislation was passed, the principal of subrogation was included in the Bill and was accepted by this House. The same principle, should equally apply to the case of the rebellion in Dublin. It is only a question of including it in the minute that was submitted by the Under-Secretary at Dublin Gastle to-the Goulding Committee.

    The hon. Member is quite right in saying that he brought this matter carefully to my attention, and I have heard the details of the grievance of the insurance companies. I do not think the object in view would be obtained by the omission of this Clause. I cannot see how that is going to do any good to the insurance companies. On the other hand, it is true, on the point of law, that if the insured person were left with a remedy against the corporation, and there was rateable value enough in Dublin to pay for the damages, the insurance companies might be subrogated for the insurance person. It is quite true that it may be said that there is in that way an apparent limitation of the rights of the insurance companies. What I would suggest to my hon. Friend is that the Clause should pass as it is, and that as his real object is to see if it is not possible that the claims of the insurers of property should be considered together with those of the insured persons he should—he and those on whose behalf he is speaking—should make a definite representation of that kind to the Government, and I can promise that unless there is some substantial reason to the contrary that representation will be considered in a sympathetic spirit. I cannot say more than that to my hon. Friend. The situation is a very complex situation, but if it is practicable as a matter of business to include the insurer with the insuree, and to give them a right of coming together so that the same treatment may be meted out to them, provided that they do not put forward independent claims and double the amount of compensation, I will undertake to see that that is carefully considered.

    Leave withheld.

    The right hon. Gentleman has accepted the statement of the hon. Gentleman below me (Mr. Turton) of the directions given by Sir Robert Chalmers' instructions to Sir W. Goulding's Committee.

    It is a novelty to me. I 'have heard this rumour before, but I have never heard it publicly asserted, and it is a novelty to me to hear that Sir W, Goulding and two assessors from English insurance companies are sitting under the direction of the Under-Secretary for Ireland. If that is so, he loses all the advantages of an independent Committee, and I respectfully think that if the hon. Gentleman has evidence that Sir Robert Chalmers has intervened in the way in which he suggests, he should bring the matter before the Prime Minister, as it deprives us private citizens entirely of the protection we should have from this Committee. It would really mean this: that this Committee is Sir Robert Chalmers. Therefore, I would respectfully think that the hon. Gentleman has made a most serious statement, though not intended as a charge—and perhaps he does not see it as it strikes the medium of my mind— which goes to the root of the independence of Sir William Goulding's Committee. May I also say that the hon. Gentleman has touched a very tender chord when he speaks of subrogation, because there is a very strong feeling in many quarters in Ireland that the insurance companies should not have the double remedy. I want to ask a question relating to this Sub section. The right hon. Gentleman the senior Member for Trinity College (Sir E. Carson) the other night asked a question on this Sub-section. He asked the Government what steps were being taken to provide compensation to those who had lost their lives, or their limbs, or were wounded, in the rebellion. This Clause takes away all power on their part— whether they have claims or not I do not say—to make an application to the Courts. It would, therefore, seem to me to follow that we should have the promised state ment—I understand it was promised—as to what position the Government are taking up with regard to people who have lost their lives, or have been maimed in the rebellion. It would appear to me as if the Government say: We will pay compensation for a cartload of bricks which has been destroyed, but we will not pay compensation for a coffin—

    That does not appear to arise on this Amendment. That is a matter, I understand, of administration.

    Certainly it would in one sense, because we are taking away by this Clause the right of application to the Court. Take the case of policemen who can apply, but for this Clause, for compensation. This is the Clause that takes away their right to apply, and therefore I think I am strictly in order in making my remarks. I will take a particular case, that of Constable Frith, a Protestant constable, who was shot in Store Street Barracks by Sergeant Bannon of the Royal Irish Rifles, and confessedly and admittedly through a blunder, because they had mistaken the barracks for a Sinn Fein arsenal. According to the statement of Constable Frith's brother in the papers, his mother has been deprived of any real effective remedy. This Clause undoubtedly prevents this man's relatives from going to the Court. I am not saying that the Court would necessarily grant compensation—that is not the question. Bit, at any rate, they would have the right to go to the Court otherwise.

    Let me take also the case of the police-men killed or wounded at Ashbourne, county Meath. But for this Sub-section, these policemen have a right to apply to the Court. J am not saying that the Government are unwise in drawing up the Clause, and passing it through the House, I approve of their action, but I think there is a concomitant to the action, namely, that they should tell us that these wounded men, or the persons connected with the dead men, shall be duly and adequately compensated. Of course, I am not surprised that you, Mr. Whitley, should suppose that that is a right of application which did not exist. But it does exist, and although the Courts have, recently negatived cases arising out of the rebellion, and have negatived the theory that malice or ill-will should be the immediate malice or ill-will that provoked the rebellion, but that it had reference to past matters; these are references, as I understand, to Courts of first instance, and that right has now been absolutely cleared away. I approve of the action of the Government in taking away that right, but in so doing it surely involves the concomitant necessity that the Government in the case of the relatives of those policemen and others who have been wounded, who are dead, and those injured men generally, the Government should say, "We are not really limiting our means and our remedies to the case of bricks and mortar, and we are applying it in the case of human beings "I would, therefore, respectfully think that before the Debate is over to-night the Government should make a statement on this sub- ject. This rebellion was like an earthquake. It came down, so far as the general body of the persons was concerned, suddenly on the country. The Government acknowledge a right to compensation for disaster in the case of property, but is not the case of human life and that of wounded men of equal seriousness? I beg that this opportunity should be taken by the Government to make some statement for the relief of large bodies of persons who are sufferers, not, it is true, in property and substance, but from loss of life and limb connected with persons who were often the mainstay of their existence.

    This Sub-Clause 6 takes away a right which exists to apply for compensation for injury to property, among other things, which occurred during the recent disturbances. Before we take away that right, is it not right for the House to know to what extent the Government are going to make up that right? It was discussed here the other evening, and the Government stated that the question was being considered, and we were told, although not very definitely, of some arrangement that the Government were proposing to make. Is it not essential that we should know exactly the extent to which the Government means to go in making up the rights they are taking away? It is a matter of great import to those concerned, and it is an equally important matter to the House of Commons to know before they take away a right of this kind to what extent their credit is being pledged to make up for these injuries. My hon. Friends will understand it is in no grudging spirit that I urge, before we part with any money, that we ought to keep our hands upon the purse. The suggestion was thrown oat the other night that the Vote of Credit might be made available to meet any such payments as this. That may or may not be correct, but we are entitled to know definitely the extent to which the Government mean to pledge the national credit for this purpose, and the proportion which the Corporation of Dublin or the rates is going to contribute. I am sure the Government see the extreme importance of this in regard to the responsibility of the House of Commons over finance. Unless we get a statement of that kind there is nothing to prevent the Government spending any amount they like. I do not suggest that they will do what is not right in the matter.

    The Amendment has been moved in order to secure that the interests of insurance companies should not be prejudicially affected. We are much obliged to the Chief Secretary for saying that he will consider their obtaining the remedy desired. I would call his attention to the fact that he said

    If both parties apply."
    The effect of both parties applying would be very unfortunate for the insurance companies. They would have paid a man, and would then have to go to him and say, "Now come along with us and ask this Committee to recoup us the amount which we have paid for damages under this claim "I think I know Irishmen quite well enough to know that if you say to one of them, "Come and ask with us jointly for the compensation we have already paid, "he will certainly come along with you, but he will say, "I require a portion of that compensation before I join with you in asking for it. "He will not only have received his money from the insurance company, but he will expect a little blood money before he joins with the company in asking for compensation. The insurance companies will have paid twice over. According to what we are told, the companies will not have the power to ask for the compensation except by getting the party to ask for the money, in which case they will have to pay someone else. I do not know why both parties should come together and why the insurance company should not be the only party to apply for the money they have paid.

    I do not think the position of the insurance companies and of the insured persons in relation to what is called Sir William Goulding's Committee is quite appreciated. One hon. Member says that the insurance companies, having paid these moneys, have a right to claim them. All they are entitled to at law is the right to be substituted for the insured person who has parted with his legal rights. The insured person has no legal right to come before the Committee—he is there to ask for an ex gratia grant. He has no right to the privilege of going to a Committee set up in favour of the Crown for the purpose of obtaining an ex gratiagrant. What I suggested to my hon Friend (Mr. Turton) was that if the matter could be presented to the Government in such a way as to ensure that the proportion of the demand for compensa- tion which is to be distributed under the guidance of Sir William Goulding's Committee finds its proper destination—that is, into the hands of those upon whom the loss ultimately falls—a proposal of that kind seems to be consistent with justice, and to be one which ought to receive careful consideration. It is rather a complicated matter when you are dealing, on the one hand, with a legal right, and on the other with the mere privilege of going to a Committee which is set up to make recommendations. If that were a question of legal rights they would be respected. If they make their representation to the Prime Minister or the Treasury I am confident they will receive fair play. In regard to the suggestion of the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Healy) that Sir Robert Chalmers had interfered in some way with Sir William Goulding's Committee I can only say that, having a pretty accurate knowledge of Sir Robert Chalmers views in regard to public administration, I regard it as impossible—

    I am dealing with the fact. It is not material to me where the statement came from. I believe it is impossible that Sir Robert Chalmers went in any way behind the Minute under which the Committee were appointed. It was appointed by a definite Minute, as such Committees are usually appointed. Their instructions are there and I cannot conceive either that the Committee would have permitted themselves to be deflected from their duty or that any servant of the Crown, much less one of the great experience of Sir Robert Chalmers, would divert the Committee from the duties they had accepted under the Minute by which they were appointed.

    I am asked whether if the Government is entertaining applications for Grants out of the Exchequer in respect of loss of property they ought not to the same extent and upon the same principle, to entertain applications in respect of loss of life? Perhaps I may make a practical answer to that question. The cases which have arisen, so far as I am aware, have been collected by the hon. Member (Mr. Nugent). He has laid them before the Government. They are in course of investigation at present, and in those cases where it appears there was a just claim on public grounds properly and fairly to be met out of the Exchequer that claim will be favourably considered. I cannot say more. These cases are of infinite variety. No one on behalf of the Crown has had any opportunity of investigating them. So far as they require investigation each of them will be investigated.

    My hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Raw-linson) asked me to say what is going to be the amount of the Grant. How can I? There is a certain number of cases about which at present those who advise the Crown do not know anything which would lead them to a decision. At this time it is impossible to say whit amount is involved in the question of extending to dependants of killed or wounded persons the same principle which has been applied with regard to property. My own hope is that those cases are not of such a number as to involve what one would call in ordinary times a very serious charge. I can assure my hon. and learned Friend that not only will investigations be carefully made as to the reasonable claims to be compensated from the Exchequer, but the principles upon which the Exchequer usually act will be followed in deciding what is the extent to which the Government will feel warranted in coming to the House of Commons and saying, "Here are the unhappy losses, and as to such a proportion of them the Government advise the House of Commons that in their view it ought to be met by the Exchequer."

    This applies to property as well as to personal injuries. My first question, which the right hon. Gentleman has answered, was whether before the payment is made it will come before the House of Commons. The second was that so far as property is concerned, is the National Exchequer to bear the whole cost, or is any proportion, and, if so, what, to come from the ratepayers of Dublin who, by the Sub-section we are omitting, are being released from what would have been a very substantial liability?

    With respect to the point as to what special Vote will provide this money, I would say that these cases will be lawfully provided for, but I have not been long enough in my present office to be familiar with all the details of the financial transactions so as to know precisely upon what Vote they will come. But it must be a Vote which will be sanctioned by this House. The Government has no power of its own to give money—

    I cannot tell the hon. and learned Gentleman. I would tell him if I could, I assume that the usual financial control of the House will extend to the Vote concerned with this matter. As to the other question, I am able to tell him how the matter stands. The basis upon which the Goulding Commission is dealing with claims and making recommendations is the basis of the assumption of insurance. It proceeds upon the fact of insurance, if it be a fact, and the amount which the insurer must have paid in respect of such insurance. In the case where, unhappily, there was no insurance, it proceeds upon the basis of what would have been the insurance value on a fair view of the premises, and what is the proportion which an insurance company dealing honestly with the matter would have had to meet, assuming the claim to have arisen. The effect of that—there is no mystery about it; it underlay the difficulties about the Bill we were discussing earlier—is that the insurance value and the insurance payments, being decided not by the cost of reinstatement but by other considerations and producing a result which may be considerably below that cost, and the Goulding Commission having made its recommendations on that basis, the inevitable result must be a balance which the unfortunate owners of the property have to provide for. That is why the corporation of Dublin have seen it to be essential in many cases that there should be assistance by way of loan.

    I am afraid that the right hon. Gentleman has given his interpretation of the reference to the Goulding Commission in a way more unfavourable to Ireland than anything yet given. The basis of insurance mentioned in the reference to the Goulding Commission was to be taken as the basis only and not as the limit. I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that uninsured persons would be paid on the basis of insurance. As we understood it in Dublin it was this: a man may be insured for a certain amount. That may be taken into account as the basis in estimating, but the sum which the Goulding Committee would give him we have interpreted as the actual value of the structure and its contents at the time it was destroyed. That is the way in which it has been regarded in Ireland up to the present, and I think that that is in consonance with the Home Secretary's view of it, because, if not, let us know where we are. In the statement sent out by Sir William Goulding's Committee they asked for a statement of the value of the stock at the time of the outbreak, and claimants hope to get paid on that basis. I hope that there is not any change in the policy of the Government.

    There is another point with which the right hon. Gentleman has not dealt which was raised by the hon. Member for Cambridge University. It is this: If under this Clause we deprive a man of the right which otherwise he would have had of applying to the local authority for compensation for the losses sustained for malicious injury, as is done in a wholesale way by this Clause, and he is refused any compensation by the Goulding Committee, to what source is he to look? I think that this Clause is too sweeping. You should leave it over, and incorporate it in the Reconstruction Bill. I put it to the House as a matter of fair play: Is it right to deprive a man of the privilege which now he can exercise of substantiating claims against the Dublin Corporation and providing no other means by which he can get redress? I think that that is the point raised by the hon. Member for Cambridge University, and it is essential that that point should be cleared up. We will know a little later on how the Goulding Committee will act in these cases. Meantime, this Clause could be incorporated in the Reconstruction Bill which will come up when Parliament reassembles. Is it fair to pass this Clause at the present moment and absolve the local authority from the responsibility which otherwise they would have to bear? If the House think it right, let them take the responsibility, but I think it my duty to say, on behalf of the sufferers in Dublin, that this Clause would work very unfairly?

    After the speech which the hon. Member for Cambridge University has just delivered I would like to recall one or two remarks made by the Attorney-General for Ireland in the Debate on the Wednesday of last week. What Sir William Gouldings' Committee will do or will not do has no reference whatever and no relevance to this Clause. If this Clause is rejected the claimants for compensation against the ratepayers will be thrown back on the law as it now stands. One of the things which are perfectly plain is this, that not one of them could get a penny compensation.

    It would be well if the hon. Gentleman could learn to keep his temper even for a moment. There was a complaint that no compensation was to be given for consequential loss for damage to property. It was explained by the Attorney-General for Ireland and also by myself that, under the law as it stands, no claim for consequential damages could possibly be sustained. That has been decided so often in the Irish Courts that it may be taken to be the settled law of that country. Then it was said that there was no compensation offered for the loss of life, and again it was answered by the Attorney-General for Ireland that no claim for compensation could lie for loss of life unless the person claiming the compensation could prove that the loss of life was due to previous efforts on the part of the person killed or injured in preserving the peace, and he added, what everybody knows, that no appreciable number of claims could be sustained by reason of that fact. The special question was tried at Cork Assizes a week before the right hon. and learned Gentleman spoke, and the law was so decided, namely, that however a man was killed or injured he could not get compensation, because no evidence was given of his previous efforts to maintain or preserve the peace in his district or anywhere else. Therefore, if you reestablish or if you take away the Sub-section and say the law has to stand you do not give a single bit of advantage to any persons for whom the hon. Members for Cork and Meath speak now. What is the fact? These payments may be made, and it would necessitate the corporation going into Court, and the result would be that although no money can be recovered on these claims hundreds and thousands of pounds of expense would be incurred by the corporation in resisting them. There is in Dublin now an instance in which is concerned the owner of a considerable property there, which has been destroyed. He has been insured, not only in the ordinary way, but against loss by war or insurrection. He could not get compensation from Sir William Goulding's Commission, because he had already got it from the insurance company, and without this Clause the result will be that the insurance company will force that man to go against the ratepayers in the County Court. Would that not be a monstrous state of things? Such intolerable nonsense as has been talked on this subject for the last half-hour ought not to be listened to by the Government for one moment. If this Sub-section is not stuck to by the Government, a distinct and serious breach of faith will be committed. In a letter to myself Sir Robert Chalmers, speaking on behalf of the Government, promised this Clause, and not only promised it but he thanked me for supporting it. The letter was published, and no answer has ever been given to it; and I now say that if the Government should give way in the slightest degree to the demand for the exclusion of this Clause, they will add one more to the list, I think already too long a list, of broken pledges to the Irish public.

    It is quite true that the Government have given a distinct and unqualified pledge to the corporation that a Clause of this kind would appear in the Kill, and therefore they cannot even consider the suggestion of the hon. Member for Meath (Mr. P. White). There is this much to be said, that this Clause would be more in harmony with the other Bill, but not with the fulfilment of the Government pledge, and so far as the Government's pledge is concerned, there it must remain, and we cannot be any party to any alteration of it, or to any transfer of it from this Bill to any other Bill, There is ^. e other matter I want to make quite clear, especially so that there may be no confusion in tie mind of the hon. Member for North-East Cork (Mr. Healy), who raised the question with regard to the insurance companies. The reason why the Government intervened and consented to make this ex gratiâ Grant was this: It was found in the majority of cases that the insurance policies which were taken out upon the buildings which have unfortunately been destroyed, did not render the insurance companies liable where the loss occurred by reason of civil commotion or military operations. Therefore, if the Government had not come to the rescue, the owners of property would have had no remedy against the insurance companies, since the policies did not cover a case where the property was destroyed or injured as the result of civil commotion or military operation. But it is not to be understood, and my right hon. and learned Friend the Chief Secretary never intended to convey to the hon. Gentleman who put the question that in cases where, on the face of the policy, this risk was covered—and in some cases the policy covered the risk of civil commotion, rebellion, or military operations—that there should be any grant of any sort or kind. The Government never contemplated, and do not now contemplate, that there should be any grant of any sort or kind to the insurance companies in such cases, and for the obvious reason that the insurance companies have got their premiums on the faith of that policy, and now that they have become liable there is no reason why they should be indemnified by anybody when they are fulfilling contracts and carrying out obligations. I was anxious that there should be no confusion in the mind of anybody in the Committee on that point, and that the position might be clearly understood. With regard to the point of the hon. Member for North Meath (Mr. White) that it might be that the amount awarded by the Goulding Committee might in some cases not amount to the sum the applicant would have recovered had he been left his ordinary Statute remedy under the Malicious Injuries Acts. That is true if I could conceive any case that could possibly arise which is not covered by the reference to the Goulding Committee, and if that were so I would be personally inclined to say there was something in the point. But so far as injury to the person is concerned, there is certainly no such case. There is no machinery and no law in Ireland to-day existing that I know of that enables any person merely because he has been injured in civil commotion or any action of the military to recover damages for that from any local authority and so far as injury to a person is concerned this Clause, in my opinion, deprives nobody of any benefit. As to injury to property, I cannot conceive how a claim could possibly lie under the Malicious Injuries Act, whether it was caused by the rebels themselves or whether it was caused by the military operations. It would be very difficult. The phraseology of the Act is precise, the decisions have defined the subject matter and scope of the various sections, and under these decisions I cannot conceive of any case resulting from the recent outbreak that could be made the subject matter of a claim under the Malicious Injuries Acts, as regards either person or property. Therefore I do not think the Committee need be anxious under the idea that any existing right has been taken from anyone. I think it was a wise precaution to insert the provision, for this reason—that many people would bring claims on the off-chance. If a man thinks he may win £3,000 by investing in a solicitor and counsel to the extent of £50, he will have a gamble and take his chance. But that exposes the local authority to the necessity of expensive litigation, it causes delay and involves much expense for witnesses and professional men. Therefore, I think it was wise to put the provision in the Bill.

    Before I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment, I should like to explain. I was referring only to plate glass insurance. Where it is entirely for the convenience of the insured person to get his money, or to get his plate glass restored at the earliest possible moment there is a Clause by which he can transfer his rights to the insurance company. I will not debate the matter further, as I understand we are entitled to place our views before the Chief Secretary. Some words which I used with regard to Sir Robert Chalmers have been twisted by the hon. and learned Member for Cork (Mr. Healy) in a way in which they certainly have no right to be twisted. The hon. and learned Member is on the war-path tonight, but I regret that he should have made this attack upon a public official in Ireland. Every Irish paper on the 16th June had an official communication with regard to Sir William Goulding's Committee. It is obvious on the face of it that there is not the slightest atom of a suggestion that can be twisted in the way attempted by the hon. and learned Member. So far as I am concerned, I say distinctly that I wish not the smallest impression to be left on the Committee that Sir R. Chalmers has acted in any other way than we should expect a right-spirited public servant to do.

    The hon. Member below me (Mr. Turton) made a statement upon which I placed my interpretation. If that interpretation is incorrect, I gladly accept the hon. Member's correction. I have no desire whatever to attack Sir R. Chalmers. But the statement has been made to-night by one of the Members for Dublin that the effect of the decision of the Goulding Committee is that they may give far less, or, at any rate, something less than was expected, and that statement is borne out by the Chief Secretary. When I heard the right hon. Gentleman make the statement I thought it was in consequence of some direct intervention of Sir R. Chalmers. I am glad to hear that the Goulding Committee are to be allowed an unfettered discretion. If that is so, I hope there is no foundation for the suggestion that they will not give the very fullest amount of compensation to which the loss entitles the sufferers. I humbly concur in the law as laid down by the learned Attorney-General. At the same time, in past cases when the Government have taken away the right, they accompanied that subtraction of right with the correlative duty of supplying it in other ways. Take the case of the Trafalgar Square Riots in February, 1886., Immediately Mr. Gladstone announced, as those sufferers had no means of getting an adequate sum, if at all, that a Bill would be brought in to enable those persons to make their claims, and they were duly met. This relieved all those persons from responsibility of what had occurred in a civil commotion. I have said that in the main I concur in the action of the Government, but that action carries with it the correlative duty on the part of the Government, seeing they admit their duty to provide the loss that that loss should be provided for in the Vote. My hon. Friend the Member for Meath has made the suggestion that where the loss has not been met by insurance the Government ought to provide for such cases.

    The prevailing impression is that the Goulding Committee will not provide adequate or full compensation, or compensation at all in certain cases. The hon. Member gave an instance of a man whose horses were injured in the rebellion, and after the rebellion had to be shot. The Goulding Committee negatived the theory that it was under an obligation to compensate for such loss. My hon. Friend suggested that if there was a laeuva in their proceedings, either these parties ought to be allowed to make good their claim in a Court of law or the Government should itself do as he suggested. The less Sir Robert Chalmers is seen by Irish Members the better. The arrangement did not turn out so happily in regard to Sir M. Nathan, when the telephone was going the whole time from Dublin Castle to the house of a certain Nationalist Member during the Dublin rebellion. I find it difficult to understand the extraordinary amount of zeal shown by the hon. Member to whom reference has been made. It may leave an injurious effect upon his fellow citizens. Though this Clause may only confer a very nebulous right, yet at the same time there are cases unprovided for, and I think that this Clause should be postponed. What harm would postponement do? The cases are hung up. There is no idea of persevering with them. I cannot for my part see what the bargain is between the Government and the Member for Dublin. I construe it this way: Last week there appeared on the Paper a series of objections to the Time (Ireland) Bill. All those very patriotic speeches were made in reference to that Bill, and Members swore they would die on the floor of the House before they allowed English time to be applied to Ireland. To-night I find all those notices have disappeared. Therefore, when I hear all these threats I do not attach any importance to them. Their threats are now useless. They are a discredited party. Everyone knows it. Their power is gone. They are mere automatons. Their very leader has deserted them. [An Hon. MEMBER: "Where is your leader?"] I am my own leader.

    I have not been elected by bribery and corruption, and I have not become a bankrupt in consequence. I do not speak here as a bankrupt at all, but as a man who has honestly paid his debts, and I am speaking in favour of those who are striving to assert their rights. The Government are taking away the right of correlative remedy, and I strongly suggest to the Government it is most expedient in a case of this kind to let the law stand until we know what the Report of Sir William Goulding's Committee will be.

    The Attorney-General has not answered my question. I would like him to take this question seriously. I have a letter from the owner of the two horses which were shot, about which a question has been put in this House asking what he shall do, having been refused compensation by Sir William Goulding's Committee. If he has no right of claim against the corporation or the local authority, what redress has that individual if you pass the Clause in this Bill Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman advise me?

    I think the obvious answer would be that if his right is taken away under this Bill, and Sir William Goulding's Committee does not consider his claim good, then he has no redress. That would seem necessarily to follow. But the hon. Member must really be under a mistake as to the facts about these two horses which he has quoted more than once. [An HON. MEMBER: "One of them was a donkey!"] Wherever the hon. Member has got his facts, I think a little further investigation will convince him he has not got the full facts.

    If you had, I do not think you would be able to put the case, because I think the Committee would have given compensation. If the facts are as the hon. Member puts them I can hardly conceive that a sensible business man like Sir William Goulding would not have entertained the claim. Therefore, my own impression is that probably the hon. Member has been misinformed, but, assuming he has not, then it is one of those cases in which some inconvenience and some loss have been sustained by the inhabitants of Dublin. I know as a result of the rebellion serious inconvenience and loss, and, in many cases, pecuniary damage have been sustained, and it could not in any shape or form come under malicious injury or ex gratia claims.

    11.0 P.M

    It appears to me that the hon. Member has been well advised in asking leave to withdraw his Amendment. This Clause takes away no right, and it is a very useful one because it prevents a number of persons from perpetuating what would be a most manifest wrong. Unless this Clause is inserted you will leave the door open to a number of people to prefer bogus claims against the Corporation of Dublin and other public bodies in Ireland, and there is no one in this Committee who wishes to encourage bogus claims of that kind. After what has been said by the hon. Member for Thirsk (Mr. Turton), who dissociated himself from the attack of the hon. and learned Member for East Cork, it is not necessary to say anything. The hon. and learned Member has thought fit now, without any relevancy to the subject under discussion, to make an attack on one of my colleagues. He spoke of people in a position of bankruptcy, and he has the indecency to throw about his own money bags and wealth. At any rate he cannot boast of his political wealth or standing in any constituency in Ireland. The hon. and learned Member talks of a readiness to go to the constituencies, but the last time he went he got an opportunity of cooling his heels, until his leader, the hon. Member for Cork City (Mr. W. O'Brien), got a Tory friend to vacate a seat, and it is by the resignation of that Tory that my hon. Friend sits here and seeks to misrepresent the Nationalist cause.

    Question, "That Sub-section (6) stand part of the Clause, "put, and agreed to.

    Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."

    I oppose the Third Beading of this Bill because it is bad in principle and it is a measure that might very well be left until next week or until after the Adjournment. It is a very serious matter for some poor people in Dublin who may have lost their means of livelihood. For these reasons I object to the Third Reading.

    I wish to ask the Attorney-General whether the Government are prepared to make any provision for the costs incurred in applications in connection with the law of documents and perpetuating testimony. It was my intention to move an Amendment in Committee but I had the privilege of a discussion with the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. J. H. Campbell), and as the result I did not move. It would, however, be very satisfactory if the right hon. and learned Gentleman would tell us exactly how the matter stands.

    I have been in communication with the Incorporated Law Society as well as with the hon. Member for St. Stephen's Green, Dublin (Mr. Brady), on this very point. I must remind the House that this Bill has done a great deal for these unfortunate members of the solicitors' profession whose premises have been destroyed. In the first place, they have been allowed and encouraged to apply to this Goulding Committee with regard to any of their property, including deeds.

    Yes. In addition to that, we have inserted a Clause protecting them from any liability in any suit or proceedings in connection with any loss of any deed. We have also given power to them to perpetuate testimony in regard to these documents. We have gone very great lengths, but, notwithstanding the good standing and eminence of these gentlemen, all of whom are personally known to myself, human nature being what it is, I should not like to be responsible for a Bill which contained a Clause in it that solicitors could be paid out of public funds the costs of applications which they might choose—

    It is hardly fair to look at it from the point of view of the solicitor. It is really the litigant who will have to pay the costs.

    The litigant's interests are being well looked after, because he has the privilege, which he did not have before, of having a copy of these deeds treated as the original. He has also the privilege of perpetuating testimony with regard to the law of documents. It is not too much, if he is going to enjoy these privileges, that he should pay for them.

    I hope that my hon. Friend (Mr. P. White) will not persist in his opposition to the Third Reading of this Bill. It contains only one objectionable Clause, and we know now from the hon. Member for North Dublin (Mr. Clancy) that Clause was the subject of a special bargain between himself and Sir Robert Chalmers, and, of course, that being so, it will be enthusiastically received by all Irish Members. I myself think that it is an unfortunate one and that at this stage it is premature, but the Bill, as a. whole, being a necessary Bill and one which the Government were well advised and entitled to introduce, the fact that there is one bad Clause in it I do not think should induce any of us to vote against the Third Reading.

    There is only one other remark I would like to make, and it is this. I am sorry this Clause should have formed the subject of a bargain on the Time Bill. The Time Bill may be a good or a bad Bill, but I regret that the long list of patriotic names in opposition to the Time Bill should have disappeared from the Notice Paper, as the result of the Government having agreed to this Clause.

    I myself have looked into this Bill with some care, and upon the whole I think the Bill was a necessary outcome of the unfortunate things that happened in Dublin. But I am bound to say that I regret exceedingly that this particular Clause as to the abolition of the right to seek compensation has been put in the form in which it is in this Bill. I cannot see myself, if there is any right to obtain compensation in the circumstances, that occurred to individuals in Dublin or elsewhere, by what right the Government have to take the right of action away without providing compensation in lieu thereof Were it not that I approve the Bill generally, as the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Healy) just said he did, I certainly would have offered opposition to the Bill. For my own part, I cannot understand also why the Government have drawn such a broad distinction between injury to property and injury to individuals as they have done. It is a very cruel distinction. I have had case after case submitted to me arising out of this unfortunate rebellion in Dublin in which individuals have received injuries of the most horrible character, have been debarred from earning their livelihood, have had to pay their medical expenses, and have had to incur expenses which may probably lead them into great difficulties. The Government have cared nothing about these things at all. All they have thought of is the rebuilding of the City, and giving the provisions of relief to property owners, or owners of title-deeds, and other matters of that kind, contained in this Bill. I would say to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, the Chief Secretary, that I hope we have not heard the last of compensation in relation to the personal loss of individuals. The hon. and learned Member for North-East Cork (Mr. Healy) has said that there was some bargain over the Time Bill. All I can say is that I am anxious that the Time Bill should pass, but that is not a matter on which I shall spend a sleepless night if it does not pass. I made no bargain, and I heard of no bargain in relation to the Time Bill. I do hope, and I do press upon the Govern- ment in all fairness, that they should consider the claims of these men who from want of proper protection on the part of the Government, at all events the Coalition Government, have not received that protection, that ordinary police protection, which is the elementary right of every citizen. They have suffered loss in consequence of the criminal negligence of the Government, and the Government should reconsider the question and consider whether these people should not be just as much entitled to compensation as owners of property.

    I ought to say a word in answer to what the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir E. Carson) has said. He was not in the House earlier in the proceedings on this Bill.

    I can inform the hon. Member for Meath (Mr. White) that all these cases of loss by death, of loss by wounds, and of loss to relatives which has been collected and forwarded to the Government are at the present moment receiving consideration as to whether it would be proper and consistent with the ordinary rules as to the expenditure of public money that the principle which has been applied with regard to losses of material property should be extended to loss of life and loss by injury.

    Question, "That the Bill be now read the third time," put, and agreed to.

    Bill read the third time, and passed.

    Time (Ibeland) Bill

    Order for Second Reading read.

    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

    When this Bill was read a first time the other night, there was an amazing outburst against its enactment. There appeared upon the Paper a whole series of notices for its rejection—numbering some ten altogether. The hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) went so far as to say that he would take immediate steps to go over to Ireland to consult his Constituents—who, he said, were largely migratory labourers who were in the habit of coming over to England to enjoy English time—and to find out their opinion with regard to this measure. By some fairy wand which I am wholly unable to understand, all that welter of objections has disappeared. It is certainly a great lesson in the art of government and the art of managing men to find out that the patriotism of Wednesday in last week becomes the ordinary British Imperialism on the following Thursday week. I am annoyed at this extraordinary change of heart. Since the famous conversion of St. Paul there has been nothing more wonderful. I desire to say a few words in reference to this Bill which will be of a practical character. Before the passing of the Summer Time. Act I thought there was a great deal to be said, and I still think there is a good deal to be said, in favour of the assimilation of English and Irish time. It is called "English" time, but it is no more English time than it is any other time. It is God's time. [An HON. MEMBEE: "Sun time"] Yes, sun time. That it should be called English time or Irish time is a gross absurdity. It is just like people who, if their name is Doyle, and they insert seventeen letters after it, call it Gaelic spelling. I do not. I will never be associated with bad spelling or bad time keeping as a mark of patriotism.

    There is a serious and particular objection to this measure, namely, that while the Daylight Saving Bill added to the length of your daylight, this Bill adds to the length of your darkness. Agriculture, in the main, is the chief business of Ireland. I concede that for Dublin and Belfast this Bill has several advantages. I see them myself and can state them. But if you take the farmers of the country, this Bill is most disadvantageous. Supposing there was a proposal that England should get up to its work twenty-five minutes earlier than it does now and work in winter time in the dark. What would Englishmen say to that? By this Bill you add twenty-five minutes to the Summer Time Bill, and although in fact it does not add in summer time to the darkness yet it puts us practically an hour and a half before the clock or before the sun. What is the effect upon the farming population? Take haymaking. Irish hay for some reason takes longer to dry than English. The farmer in Ireland finds that in the earlier hours by the clock as it now is, say from 6 to 10, the dew lies so heavy on the hay that haymaking cannot be effectively conducted, and the best hours for haymaking are from 4 to 6 o'clock. You may say, let the labourers and farmers adjust their time, and I dare say after a few years this adjustment will be made. People who have been in the habit of going to work at a given hour by the clock will not like to be told that they should work on till half past seven instead of half past six, and there will always be a feeling such as was manifested by the mob in London when the Gregorian calendar was adopted. "Give us back our eleven days. "They kept the City in a commotion for days, showing that amongst the enlightened people of this City the prejudice was not easily eradicated. But in the case of the farmer you have not only the question of the hay but you have very largely also the question of the milking of cows. The cow does not give its milk by the clock but by the sun. It is daylight and darkness that influence the animal world, and once you make the trains, as you will by this Bill, run earlier, you will inflict upon the dairying and agricultural populations a hardship for which no commensurate advantage will arise. What is the advantage that is to arise? The advantage for Dublin and for Belfast will be considerable. We do not know yet what view the railway companies will take of it. I spoke to a railway manager on the subject and he told me that on his line it would involve 2,000 changes in the time-table, and that is a line of not more than 300 or 400 miles. I take it you must leave the existing trains that bring business people to business and school children to school trains arriving at nine or ten o'clock. But take the case of the mail trains. In time of peace you could not alter the Irish mail train without altering the trains as far east as Russia. The Irish trains go by the English, the English go by the French and so back to Moscow. So that the result will be that the Irish mail trains must necessarily be altered. That will enable us to leave Dublin thirty-five minutes later than we now do, a very considerable advantage to business men and that I fully put upon our side of the account. But the result of the changes on the crossing trains will have to be considered. Many of these railways are single lines, and both for postal and railway communications you are making a change for which no adequate reason has been shown. I feel an advantage in the change, perhaps, because I am travelling so frequently between the two countries.

    I know that in counties like Donegal they have absolutely refused to act on the daylight saving. They have not been able to do it. I fully believe that this is a change which should only be introduced after a great deal more inquiry than this has been given to it. The Bill met with strong opposition, when it was introduced, by the hon. Member for East Mayo and his friends who, apparently, have deserted from their leader who took up the cry. The hon. Member for Mayo has not by any view that I have heard expressed a change of sentiments. The hon. and learned Member for Waterford has not expressed, so far as public utterance goes, any opinion, but we had it from the Home Secretary, and I fully accept his statement, that he did not introduce the Bill until the hon. and learned Member for Waterford had given his assent to it. I think the hon. and learned Member for Waterford in this matter has assented without giving the matter sufficient consideration. There is no war reason for the Bill that I can see. If English Members in their own case proposed that a trade union should work in the dark twenty-five minutes longer on winter mornings than they now do, I think there is not a single trade unionist who would consent to its adoption. I have asked what were arguments in favour of the change so that I might balance one thing with the other. The arguments in favour of the Bill as given to me—of course there may be, others—was that some English business men who have several duties to discharge, go to their offices only for a part of the day between nine and ten o'clock.—I have not seen that section, I do not know of its existence—and that if they do not get their telegrams and letters at that time great dislocation occurs. That seems to me to be a flimsy reason. I may tell the right hon. Gentleman that, as the Irish Members have withdrawn their opposition to the Bill, I am not going to stand out against an experiment. Instead of being called English time I think it will be called Redmond time, and those who get up fifteen minutes earlier in the dark will have a pleasant recollection as to who is the author of this Bill. Therefore I do not intend, so far as I am concerned, to carry my opposition to the length of voting against the measure. Still I say that it has not been recom- mended in argument for the agricultural part of the country. Anybody who reads the Conservative papers in Ireland will see that there have been lots of gentlemen farmers of the Conservative cause opposing this Bill, and speaking of the unfortunate effect it will have upon the country. I would cheerfully pass this Bill if it were to apply to the summer half only, but in that case there would be this difficulty, that there would be one time for one part of the year and a different time for the other half. That is a strong objection. I therefore leave the matter in the hands of the Government. The responsibility is upon them. The Home Secretary said he had received a letter in favour of the Bill from the Cork Chamber of Commerce. But the Labour affiliation passed a strong resolution the other way. The Bill has not been properly considered. There is no hurry for it. We are in the midst of a war, when the Government is getting its Bills very easily, and yet they thrust this down our throats like a ramrod. Having made my protest against the Bill I leave the responsibility upon those who, having put down their blocks, have withdrawn them.

    The hon. and learned Gentleman who has just sat down, having found that the maligning of the Dublin Corporation was not a very wise line to follow, has now turned to his old tactics of slinging mud upon this Party. All I can say is that we shall treat his mud slinging now with the same contempt as we have shown towards his mud slinging for the last six or seven years. The more mud he slings the stronger will be our party in Ireland. A few moments ago he told us that if there were an election very few of us would come back, but he will find a warm reception awaiting him when he goes to North-East Cork.

    As testimony of what I say I think that he will not challenge me when I say that when prisoners were being taken from his Constituency in connection with the recent rebellion they did not communicate with him in any way.

    I just treat that remark with contempt, because the people of Mitchelstown sent me the list of prisoners who were taken from that neighbourhood. The Home Secretary will bear me out. It was only after a question dealing with this subject, in connection with the case of a man named Thomas Hannigan, who was interned at Frongoch, was published that the hon. and learned Gentleman came to the rescue.

    All right; have it. The right hon. and learned Member for Dublin University said a week ago that the opposition to this Bill came from some angry politicians. I do not know what he means by the term "angry politicians.'' If "angry politician" means a man who stands up in this House to criticise the Government and oppose the measures which they introduce, all I can say is that the right hon. Gentleman is the champion angry politician of this House. The hon. and learned Member for Cork is quite right in saying that ten or twelve of us put down a blocking Motion against this Bill, but it was not because we were angry politicians, but because we believe that there is no demand for this Bill in Ireland by any section of the community, industrial, commercial or agricultural; and we intended to carry our opposition into the Lobby, but the right hon. and learned Member for Dublin University said that if we continued our opposition to the Time Bill he and some of his friends would do their best to kill the Dublin Bill. We look upon the Dublin Bill as being a Bill of great importance to Ireland, and while there was no bargain, no compromise and no suggestion whatever of any arrangement being come to between the Home Secretary, the right hon. and learned Member, and those of us who were opposed to this measure, the moment that we found that the right hon. and learned Member and his friends were to oppose the Dublin Bill, if we continued our opposition to the Time Bill, we went to the Home Secretary and told him that we would withdraw our opposition to the Time Bill, on the understanding that the right hon. and learned Member and his friends would support the Dublin Bill. The right hon. and learned Member stood by his word. He did not oppose the Dublin Bill.

    The right hon. and learned Member cannot deny that he stated in this House that he would oppose the Dublin Bill if we continued our opposition to the Time Bill. My friends and I took it for granted that he would not oppose the Dublin Bill if we withdrew our opposition to the Time Bill, and having accepted that, whether we were right or wrong, we are going to stand by it. Even if we did not want the Time Bill in Ireland we are not going—as the hon. and learned Member for North-East Cork would not hesitate to do for one single moment—to go from our word. We stand by it, and we will not oppose this measure going through, although it is not applicable to country districts, where the farmer cannot attack his hay and corn, because of the condition of the ground, until eight or half-past eight in the morning, and to put the clock back an hour and a-half will mean that in the summer months he will have to find work for his men until the usual time comes for attacking the hay and corn. We have taken up our position, and we are going to stand to it. No matter what happens at the next General Election, whatever may be the decision in the Time table, we are quite prepared to meet the hon. and learned Member for North-East Cork, and those who are with him, at the ballot box.

    I desire to say a few words in answer to the question raised by the hon. and learned Member for North-East Cork. The introduction of this Bill is not due to any idiosyncracy of my own, nor is there any passionate desire on the part of the Government to assimilate Irish time to the time of Great Britain. Some few years ago there was a strong movement in Ireland for the unification of time throughout the United Kingdom. It was felt that there was undue inconvenience to travellers, inconvenience to telegraphic, and, in some instances, postal communication, and also business persons found inconvenient the difference in time on our Stock Exchange and in our markets. In consequence, the Chamber of Commerce throughout Ireland passed resolutions in favour of unification of time in the United Kingdom. A Bill was introduced in the House of Lords and passed through that Chamber, but it did not make progress in this House. When I introduced a few months ago the Summer Time Bill, hon. Members urged that the opportunity should be taken to unify British and Irish time. The hon. Member for South Kerry and other Nationalist Members pressed that very strongly, and the same view was expressed by the hon. Member for East Down. I said at that time that I should be unwilling to make a proposal of that kind in connection with the Bill, first, for the reason that the measure was only a temporary one, while this ought to be a permanent change, if made at all; and, secondly, because I should not wish to act in defiance of public opinion in Ireland. At that moment the rebellion broke out and was suppressed. It was impossible, in those circumstances, to draw the attention of the Irish Government, or other Irish bodies, to a question such as this. Since that time I have received a number of resolutions from different portions of Ireland urging that this change might be effected. Dublin and Waterford Chambers of Commerce, Dublin Port and Docks Board, Dublin Corporation, the Limerick Harbour Commissioners, the Belfast Chamber of Commerce, and other bodies urged strongly that the opportunity should be taken to unify British and Irish time. As the hon. Member for North-East Cork said, I approached the Chairman of the Nationalist Party here, and he expressed approval of the proposal before the Bill was introduced. In these circumstances, I thought it was my duty to the House and to those bodies in Ireland, to lay this proposal before the House for its consideration. It was for these reasons the Bill was introduced.

    Has the right hon. Gentleman had any resolutions from any Trade Unions or Trade Councils in favour of the Bill?

    Although it has been a good deal noticed in the Irish newspapers. With respect to agriculturists, to whose case both hon. Members who have spoken have drawn prominent attention, all agriculturists ignore all questions of the clock and always have done so. They work by the sun. When the daylight comes and the warmth of the sun has lifted the dew then and then only they are able to begin certain agricultural operations. In one month it may be one hour and in another a different hour, and in summer time— under the new regulations it is one hour by the clock and in normal times—it is another. They ignore all those things. When the land is ripe to be worked upon then they start their agricultural operations. When the Summer Time Bill was under discussion we heard much the same kind of speeches. I do not know if the hon. and learned Member for North-East Cork was present during that Debate.

    The agriculturists then were expressing exactly similar views, although with more emphasis, because the change was an hour instead of twenty-five minutes. We had then many prophecies that the greatest inconvenience would be felt and that the agriculturists would find it difficult to carry on operations when the Summer Time Bill was passed. I have made inquiries in many quarters, including from hon. Members of this House who expressed the views of the agriculturists very strongly, and I find that no serious inconvenience has followed and that the agriculturists carry on operations just the same. Most of them, as the hon. Member for Donegal said, pay no attention to the alteration of the clock and proceed simply by the sun, and others find it practical and convenient to work by the altered hours, and so it will be, I am quite convinced, if this Bill is passed also. With regard to the railways, I have had no opposition and no protest from any of the Irish railways. They have only asked that they should have two months notice before it comes into force in order to alter the time-tables. The Railway Executive Committee which is managing now on behalf of the railways in Great Britain, and which also has relations with those in Ireland, have passed a resolution strongly favouring the proposal embodied in this Bill. Let me say, finally, it may meet the susceptibilities of some people to point out that what we are proposing to apply in Ireland is not really English time but Western European time. Ireland alone of all the Western European countries has her own clock time. France, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, have all, for the sake of international convenience, adopted the time based on the Meridian at Greenwich. Germany, Italy, Holland, and Sweden and Denmark have adopted Central European time, which is based on the time different by one hour from that of the Meridian at Greenwich. The whole civilised world is divided into zones of standard time; each zone differing by one hour from the next, and all of them based primarily on the Meridian at Greenwich. We are asking that in Ireland Western European time should be adopted. Ireland is the only country which stands in an exceptional position. An hon. Member says there is no urgency about this Bill. The Bill, if it is to be adopted, ought to be adopted at this moment, because the most convenient time for carrying the change into effect is when the clocks are altered on the 30th September or 1st October to restore the normal time at the termination of the summer. Instead of making two changes of the clock you can make one change of the clock. Whilst the clocks of this island will be put back one hour in the early morning of 1st October, it is proposed that the clocks of Ireland shall be put back only thirty-five minutes, thereby eliminating the difference which there has been between Irish and British time. If that is to have public effect on the 30th September I would ask the House to sanction the passage of this Bill to-day in order that it may proceed to the other House before the Recess.

    I desire to support this Bill. I entirely agree with what the right hon. Gentleman has said. Really clocks do not make much difference to agriculturists; they keep their own time. I have had some difference of opinion with several of my colleagues on this question, but anybody who knows anything about the farmers' work knows perfectly well that at different seasons of the year men go to work at different times. The hon. and learned Member for North-East Cork (Mr. T. M. Healy) charged one of my colleagues with making a false statement. I have been furnished with a letter from a gentleman in Cork showing that my hon. Friend stated what was really the fact. I strongly support the Bill. I am of opinion that the unification of time will be beneficial not only to Great Britain but also to Ireland. If France and other countries have settled the time according to Greenwich I cannot understand why it cannot be done with regard to Ireland.

    Question put, and agreed to.

    Bill read a second time.

    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House will immediately resolve itself into Committee on the Bill."—[ Mr. Gulland.]

    I object. This is not emergency legislation in any sense. It is being rushed through because the Irish public have been left under the impression that it would not pass, owing to the block set down to the measure. For my part I strongly object. I believe that when the Irish people realise that this measure is being thrust upon them without consideration, there will be, especially among Trade Unionists, the strongest objection. It will involve an additional half-hour's waste of gas. I consider it a great hardship to working people that this Bill should be passed. You have adopted it because it suits you, but if it meant your working people having to work another twenty-five minutes in the dark I would like to see any English Minster proposing it.

    I think the hon. Member is mistaken in supposing that there must be absolute unanimity to enable this stage to be taken now.

    On a point of Order. Is it, Mr. Speaker, within the power of a Minister to take this stage of a Bill without unanimity?

    On the point of Order. I venture to say that the only reason we ask the House to proceed with the Bill to-day is that it is useless, it comes into operation on 30th September.

    I do not think the Bill is of such importance as to merit a special sitting of the House. The Bill has to pass through the other House before the Recess, and that is the reason I would ask the House to pass it now. The Bill only contains one brief Clause. The principle of it has been agreed to.

    I would appeal to the hon. and learned Gentleman to allow the Bill to pass. The difference in English and Irish time in the Irish Post Office has led to a great deal of confusion.

    Question put, and agreed to.

    Bill accordingly considered in Committee.

    Clause 1—(Time In Ireland)

    As from two o'clock in the morning, Dublin mean time, on Sunday the first day of October, nineteen hundred and sixteen, the time for general purposes in Ireland shall be the same as the time for general purposes in Great Britain both during the periods when the Summer Time Act, 1916, is in force and at all other times, and accordingly the enactments mentioned in the Schedule to this Act shall, as from the same date, be repealed to the extent specified in the third column to that Schedule.

    I beg to move to postpone the consideration of the Clause.

    We are met under very peculiar circumstances. It is five minutes to twelve o'clock. This Bill has not been accepted on its merits by the Irish Party, it has only been accepted as part of a bargain to pass the Bill connected with the Dublin Corporation. There is no reason whatever why the House should not meet tomorrow, Friday, and there is Saturday as well. I can see no reason in pushing this forward now. If the Bill had been to confer an advantage upon Ireland I am quite sure there would not have been this keen anxiety. I have never seen any anxiety on the part of the present Government to deal with any Irish matter which the Irish people really desired. This is a Bill which the Nationalists admit they have accepted as a bargain for other legislation. Therefore I strongly objected to the Second Reading, and now to the Committee stage being taken, and I suppose we shall be told that it is desirable that the Government should also have the Third Reading. The Irish public should have an opportunity of considering a Bill like this. It is especially one that the working people should be allowed to consider. The position is unreasonable, and I therefore beg to move that you, Mr. Deputy-Chairman, do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again.

    I hope the hon. and learned Gentleman will not press his Motion. We, the Members of this House who represent English constituencies, recognise that so far as we are concerned, it is only not five minutes to twelve, but five minutes to eleven. Therefore, whilst we may grumble in the morning, I do not think we should grumble in the evening. I would like to say that, though I eannot agree with the Motion of the hon. and learned Gentleman, I have had letters from Ireland complaining with regard to this Bill.

    I quite agree, Mr. Maclean, but one of the reasons given for the Motion is that the people of Ireland have not had the opportunity of discussing this question they ought to have had, and therefore, with the object of getting more time, the hon. and learned Member wishes the House to meet again to-morrow and on Saturday, if necessary. I hope he will withdraw his Motion, however, because I think when the question is understood the people of Ireland will not object at all to the Bill. I would, therefore, appeal to the hon. and learned Gentleman not to hinder the passage of the Bill.

    I only rise to ask the Government whether they are going to take any more measures to-night.

    I am always in sympathy with a Motion to report Progress at this hour of the evening. Almost every day for the last fortnight we have had a Resolution suspending the Eleven o'clock Rule. It would have been much braver of the Government to have suspended the Eleven o'clock Rule right through. I do not think legislation is ever good at this hour, 'and I do not think the Government ought to ask the House to sit as late as they have done recently. It is not a question as to the fate of this Bill, but simply, I understand, that we ought not to rush these things when the people of Ireland, everyone of whom is affected by this Bill, are entirely ignorant of what is going on. The prospect of the Bill passing before the Adjournment would be in no way jeopardised if this Motion were accepted. All that the Government would have to do would be to put it down on Monday, and I do not think, from what I can gather as to the feeling of the House, an hour would be required for Committee and Third Reading. The other House could sit on Tuesday, pass the Bill through all stages, and get the Royal Assent on Wednesday. The Government have had a very good day. The Home Secretary will get his Bill, and everybody will be satisfied. I suggest that the Government should not look round for difficulties, and occasionally they might defer to an opinion expressed even by a private Member of the House.

    I should not urge the House to take this stage in addition to the other stages if the Bill were of a complicated nature, or one requiring minute examination in Committee, but we have to remember there is the other House, and while this Bill has been before us and printed for some considerable time the other House has not yet had cognisance of it, and as Parliament is going to adjourn on Wednesday next the other House might complain that this House has not treated them fairly in sending them a Bill which is in their hands only a day before the Adjournment.

    Not when it can be avoided, and we know the other House complains at the end of the Session that Bills come before them in very large numbers at the last moment. Where that can be avoided I would suggest that this House should not take the course proposed with the consequences I have mentioned. So far as I can gather, the general sense of the House is to proceed with the Committee stage of this very simple measure, and therefore I ask the House not to accept the Motion.

    Question put, and negatived.

    Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Bill reported, without Amendment.

    Motion made, and Question proposed,

    "That the Bill be now read the third time."

    12.0 M.

    As this Bill is passing as the result of an arrangement, I shall object to the Third Reading being now taken.

    I hope the Government will not give way to the mere bullying of one hon. Member. It is the unanimous desire of the House—with the single exception of the hon. and learned Member for Cork (Mr. Healy) that this Bill should receive a Third Reading, and under the circumstances I hope the Government will not give way.

    This matter has been under consideration for some time and I am grateful to the Government for pressing the Bill on.

    I have had a number of letters from Ireland asking me to oppose this Bill. Personally I do not see why it should be opposed, and that is a matter for the representatives of Ireland. There is, however, no doubt that in the minds of some working men there is a suspicion in regard to the working of the Bill. I think the time in Ireland ought to be the same as in this country for business purposes and everything else, and I believe it would be beneficial. I am not going to oppose the Bill in any shape or form and I think the House ought to agree to the Third "Reading without any further discussion.

    Question put, and agreed to.

    Bill read the third time, and passed.

    The remaining Orders were read and postponed.

    It being after half-past Eleven of the clock on Thursday evening, 17th August, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

    Adjourned at Five Minutes after Twelve o'clock till Monday next, 21st August.

    Petition Presented

    The following Petition was presented and ordered to lie upon the Table:—

    Thursday

    Rebellion in Ireland (Deaths of Civilians)—Petition of the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of Dublin, presented by the Lord Mayor of Dublin at the Bar, for immediate inquiry.