House of Commons
Wednesday, November 1, 1916
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Coatbridge Gas Order Confirmation Bill,
"To confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to Coatbridge Gas," presented by Mr. Tennant; and ordered (under Section 7 of the Act) to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed.
INTERNED CIVILIANS (RELEASE) (MISCELANEOUS, No. 35, 1916).
Copy presented of further Correspondence respecting the proposed Release of Civilians interned in the British and German Empires (in continuation of Miscellaneous, No. 25, 1916 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
DISEASES OF ANIMALS ACTS.
Copy presented of Report of Proceedings by the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland, under the Acts, with Returns of the Exports and Imports of Animals, for the year 1915 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
DUBLIN HOSPITALS.
Copy presented of Fifty-eighth Report of the Board of Superintendence of Dublin Hospitals, for the year 1915–16 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
DESTRUCTIVE INSECTS AND PESTS ACTS.
Copy presented of Order, numbered D.I.P. 382, declaring an area described in the Schedule thereto to be infected with Wart Disease and to be an infected area for the purposes of the Wart Disease of Potatoes (Infected Areas) Order of 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
CIVIL CONTINGENCIES FUND, 1915–16.
Copy ordered "of Accounts of the Civil Contingencies Fund, 1915–16, showing (1) the Receipts and Payments in connection with the Fund in the year ended the 31st day of March, 1916; (2) the Distribution of the Capital of the Fund at the commencement and close of the year; together with Copy of the Correspondence with the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon."—[ Mr. McKinnon Wood. ]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
WAR.
TRANSPORT "HUNTSGREEN" (WAGES).
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the men in the victualling department of the transport "Huntsgreen," chartered by the Orient Line, were offered on re-signing a reduction of wages of £l 8s. per month; whether on refusing they were informed that all those of military age would be taken by the military authorities; whether they were informed, contrary to the facts, that special constables were posted to prevent them leaving the docks; and what steps it is proposed to take to prevent men suffering reductions in wages under threats of being handed to the military authorities?
The transport "Huntsgreen" is not chartered by the Orient Line, who act only as Government agents, the ship being a prize ship. The current rate for men in the victualling department on transports signed on in London is £5 10s. per month, and this rate was offered to the victualling department of the "Huntsgreen." The ship was originally signed on at Belfast, where the port rate is higher than in London, and it was on this ground that the men based their claim for the extra £l 8s. The alteration in rate was notified several days prior to engagement, but no objection was raised until the day of signing on. In order that the ship should not be delayed, £6.5s. per month was paid. The company's marine superintendent informed the men that if they refused employment at the current rate of wages, their exemption from military service in respect of this ship would not apply, but did not inform them that special constables were posted to prevent their leaving the docks.
NAVAL RECRUITS (IRELAND).
asked how many persons who offered themselves for service in the Navy from Ireland since the outbreak of war were rejected on medical or other grounds?
The information is not available.
Will the right hon. Gentleman not be able to get it?
I am afraid not. The recruiting officer is not required to keep returns for more than twelve months. I can only get the information up to that period.
Is the practice in the Admiralty different from that in the War Office. If returns are available for the War Office, why not for the Admiralty?
If they are available at the War Office they can be got. I have not seen them for a later period.
asked how many persons have been recruited for the Navy from Ireland since the outbreak of war; and whether the number so recruited is in addition to the official figure of 105,000 given by the Secretary of State for War as the total net number who have been enlisted for service in the Army?
Exact figures are not available, but it is estimated that the number recruited for the Naval Service from Ireland from the outbreak of war to 30th September, 1916, is, approximately, 4,500. This is in addition to the figure of 105,000 given by my right hon. Friend.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say why the exact figures are not available? Does not the Admiralty know how many men they have recruited from Ireland?
Yes; I gave them up to 30th September, 1916. The figure is, approximately, 4,500.
Why approximately?
ROSYTH DOCKYARD (WAGES OF BRICKLAYERS).
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that while outside Rosyth Dockyard the wages paid to bricklayers are 11½d. per hour inside the dockyard they are only lid. per hour, being one halfpenny below the standard rate of wages in the Dunfermline district; and, seeing that this is a violation of the Fair-Wages Clause, whether he will give instructions for the wages of the bricklayers employed in the dockyard to be brought up to the standard rate?
The bricklayers employed in the dockyard are paid in accordance with authorised dockyard scale, with an addition of 7s. a week war increase. This, together with several privileges enjoyed by dockyard employés, justifies me in saying that our employés are by no means inequitably treated. It may interest my right hon. Friend to know that when I was in Rosyth last, the men not in the dockyard employment made representations to me to the effect that their conditions of labour should be brought up to the dockyard level.
MILITARY SERVICE.
ROSYTH DOCKYARD DISCHARGES.
asked whether some 150 men employed at Rosyth Dockyard belonging to Kirkcaldy have been discharged in order to join the Army; and, if so, whether their places have been filled by Englishmen of military age?
Since men began to be called up for military service under the Derby Scheme, 140 men have been released from Rosyth Dockyard. Of these 100 were called up by the recruiting officers at Dunfermline, Edinburgh, and various parts of England and Scotland, twenty by the recruiting officer at Kirkcaldy, and twenty by recruiting officers whose addresses are not recorded. As many as possible of the resulting vacancies have been filled by men ineligible for military service. The remainder have been filled partly by local entries and partly by transferees from England, local entries being made wherever possible.
Is it true that you are employing Irishmen from Ireland?
I cannot say that. There are Irishmen engaged by the contractors.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say that before Englishmen were brought there they exhausted the possibilities of Scotsmen?
It is not a question of Englishmen versus Scotsmen. It is extremely likely that some of the men brought from England to Scotland were already Scotsmen. I know there are a great many Scotsmen employed in the South. Of course, in order to get a nucleus at the beginning, we had to get men accustomed to our own dockyard work.
How many of the men imported are of military age?
If the hon. Gentleman will put down that question I will inquire.
Is there any object to be gained by taking men of military age for the Army and then importing men of military age from another area, to whom you have to pay higher wages?
I think the hon. Gentleman did not hear what I said. I said that as many as possible of the resultant vacancies have been filled by men ineligible for military service.
CONCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS.
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty if Ernest Walter Dickes, who is employed by the Admiralty at a salary of £485 per annum, and who recently appeared before the Lambeth Tribunal as a conscientious objector, is the same Ernest Walter Dickes who when deputy cashier at Portsmouth Dockyard "was ordered to leave that district by the military authority, acting under the Defence of the Realm Act; if so, why was he so removed; and why is he retained in the Government service?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part of the question, Mr. Dickes was tried at Portsmouth last year at the instance of the competent military authority on a charge of having a false certificate in his possession, and, after the case had been dismissed by the magistrates, the competent military authority issued a notice prohibiting Mr. Dickes from remaining in the neighbourhood of Portsmouth. As regards the last part of the question, Mr. Dickes has been retained because, after careful review of all the circumstances of his case and consultation with the military, it was not considered that sufficient grounds existed for his discharge from the Government service. He is, I should say, an established Civil servant with over twenty years' service under the Admiralty, married, and nearly forty-one years of age. After leaving Portsmouth, where he served as deputy cashier, Mr. Dickes was transferred to the National Debt Office. He is now employed in the Accountant-General's Department at the Admiralty in connection with the claims from dependants of deceased sailors. He was exempted as a conscientious objector by the Lambeth Tribunal, subject to the proviso that he should undertake work which, not being under military control, was nevertheless useful for the prosecution of the War, and the Committee on Work of National Importance have informed the tribunal that they could not recommend any work of national importance more useful for the prosecution of the War than that in which he is at present engaged. The present position is that the Lambeth Tribunal refuse to recognise this arrangement as fulfilling the condition on which they were prepared to exempt Mr. Dickes from military service, and the question of his further retention is now under consideration.
I beg to give notice that I shall call attention to this matter.
AUSTRALIAN CITIZENS.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can give the statutory authority under which Australian citizens have been made subject to the Miliary Service Act in this country; whether communications on the subject have passed between His Majesty's Government and the Commonwealth Government; and whether, in view of the importance of the question as tending to define for the first time the political status of the Commonwealth and the limitations of its autonomy, he will make a statement on the subject?
Men ordinarily resident in the Dominions or resident in Great Britain for the purpose only of their education or for some special purpose are excepted from the provisions of the Military Service Acts. I have not received any communication from the Commonwealth Government on the subject.
Has the right hon. Gentleman communicated with the Commonwealth Government, as this involves a question as to the rights of Australian citizens?
I should hardly be likely to communicate until I got some complaint, of which up to now I have had none.
DETENTION OF SOLDIER.
asked the Secretary for War in what unit William G. H. Miller, who was declared liable to military service at the Brentford Police Court last month, is now serving?
This man is on the strength of the Depot Royal Fusiliers, but is at present undergoing a sentence of detention.
Can the hon. Gentleman say what for?
I asked before coming away, but I could not be told.
I will put the question down.
RECRUITING IN IRELAND.
asked the Secretary for War if he is yet in a position to give the figures showing the number of men who have offered themselves for enlistment in Ireland since the outbreak of war and who have been rejected for service on medical or other grounds?
It is not possible to give exact figures, as many men are rejected more than once, after applying at different places. Since the outbreak of war, however, there have been 29,000 instances of rejection in Ireland.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Secretary of State for War gave the figure 50,000 the other day?
No, Sir. I should think that very likely it was a lapse of memory.
MEDICAL REPORTS TO RELATIVES.
asked the Secretary for War whether he can arrange that when reports are sent by medical officers to the relations of men on active service telling them from what they are suffering they shall use medical terms which can be easily understood, as the use of technical medical terms without explanation, or the use of initials only to describe the illness, are frequently not understood and are apt to convey a wrong impression?
The matter has recently been brought to notice, and the necessary instructions will shortly be issued for communicating casualties in language more readily intelligible by relatives.
HOME-SERVICE MEN.
asked the Secretary for War if arrangements may be made to transfer home-service men employed in guarding munition works, railway bridges, etc., at a great distance from their homes to localities within their reach?
I am making inquiry to see if anything further can be done in this direction.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the fact that in the last fortnight numbers of men in Class C have been called up to Winchester and sent back again; that great distress and uncertainty is thus caused; and whether such disorganisation will be prevented in the future?
I am making inquiries and will inform the hon. and gallant Member of the result.
asked the Secretary of State for War what steps he proposes to take with regard to men in Categories C 2 and C 3, whom as a class the War Office does not expect to call up, in order to give to those who are engaged in business and who are at present debarred from entering into ordinary business contracts, by reason of the uncertainty as to whether they may be the individuals called up, the utmost possible security as to their position?
I fear I can add nothing to the answer which I gave the hon. Member yesterday on this subject.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the hardship inflicted upon these men, and will he do something to secure that the problem can be dealt with by businesslike methods?
I have already told my hon. Friend that in days like these everybody is suffering hardship, and it is inevitable that some hardship must be suffered. I told the hon. Member yesterday that I had already looked into the question to see if anything could be done, and I expressed the regret that it cannot.
Is it necessary to keep twenty or thirty thousand men in suspense when the Government have already stated that they only require a few of them?
I did not say that we would only require a few of them, but that in the majority of cases we did not think they would be wanted. I cannot give any pledge.
Cannot the hon. Gentleman undertake to earmark those required first, and call them up first?
I dealt with that yesterday, and I was very sorry that it could not be done.
Why not?
MEDICAL APPEAL BOARDS.
asked the Secretary for War how many medical appeal boards have been set up and in what parts of the country; and whether he can state by what means a man who is convinced that he has not received fair treatment by the first medical board can get in touch with the Appeal Board and so obtain re-examination?
One special medical board has been set up in London. Men who after being passed fit for service by a recruiting medical board and convinced that they have not received fair treatment can produce evidence to that effect before the tribunal. If the tribunal consider that the men have not been correctly classified by the recruiting medical board, and the case goes to the special medical beard in London, arrangements are made for the man's travelling and subsistence during the period he is away from home.
May I ask whether the chairmen of the various tribunals in Scotland have decided that provision could not be made on account of the expenses involved; and, under those circumstances, could not an Appeal Board be established in the capital of each country?
I hope that the answer I have given will remove that feeling.
ROMFORD TRIBUNAL (UNFIT MEN).
asked the Secretary for War whether his attention has been called to the protests made at the Romford Urban Tribunal against the practice of sending unfit men into the Army; that two applicants who appeared before this tribunal stated that, after the most cursory examination at Warley, they had been passed for general service though holding medical certificates showing that they were quite unfit; that one member of the tribunal remarked that it was absurd to send such men for general service unless they wanted wrecks; that another member of the tribunal told of a Romford man, obviously weak and unfit, who was passed for general service and was dead ten days after joining, whereupon the military representative remarked that he would probably have died in any case; and whether he can state what further action the War Office propose to take in regard to such cases?
My attention has not been called to any particular representations made by the Romford Urban Tribunal, although I am, of course, aware that remarks have on several occasions been made at various tribunals about the efficiency of medical boards. Mistakes may have been made, but I can say without hesitation that the attacks made on medical boards have in the overwhelming majority of cases been found to be quite unjustified. The recruiting medical boards are not perfect, but they are composed of civilian medical men, and they are undoubtedly performing an exceedingly difficult and unpleasant task loyally and well.
BANKS AND INSURANCE OFFICES (EXEMPTIONS).
asked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the numerous exemptions allowed to employés of banks and insurance offices by the City of London Appeal Tribunal; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
Exemptions of employés of banks and insurance offices in the City of London have been the subject of careful examination by an expert Advisory Committee, and exemptions have only been granted by the City of London Tribunal without opposition from the military representative where the bank or insurance company concerned has agreed to release for military service a number of men accepted for the time being as sufficient by the Advisory Committee. The military representative has recently issued a circular warning employers at banks and insurance offices that, in view of the increasing demand for men for the Army, existing agreements must shortly be subject to revision. I would point out to my hon. and gallant Friend that a large number of banks and insurance offices make claim in the City of London for the whole of their employés, and in such cases the exemptions cover employés engaged in branch offices in different parts of the country.
BRITISH FORCES IN MESOPOTAMIA.
asked the Secretary of State for War who is in command of the British Forces in Mesopotamia; and whether the campaign is under the full control of the War Office?
The forces in Mesopotamia are under the command of Major-General (temporary Lieutenant-General) F. S. Maude, C.B., C.M.G., D.S.O. The campaign in that theatre is now under the full control of the War Office.
Is it not the fact that the forces in Persia and in India, from which the necessary drafts come, are not under the direct control of the War Office?
That is rather another matter.
ARMY MEDICAL CORPS (SILVER BADGE).
asked the Secretary of State for War whether the silver war badge for service is refused to medical men who have served for a year or over in the Royal Army Medical Corps if they have not relinquished their commissions on account of old age, or physical infirmity arising from wounds, or sickness caused by military service; whether he is aware that this Regulation works out unfairly to many medical men who have left the service only on the urgent call of duty to the civilian population, who are bound to have some medical attention; and whether he will alter the Regulation accordingly?
The silver badge was introduced specifically for distinguishing those who, having served with His Majesty's Forces since 4th August, 1914, have relinquished their commissions or appointments or have been discharged on account of age, wounds, or sickness. It is not a commemorative medal for service during the War. If a medal is granted for the present War, the claims of those persons whom the hon. Member mentions will be considered with all others who have served in the War.
Are men in this service, who have done their best at the front, to be refused this badge?
I have already explained the circumstances under which this badge is given.
TERRITORIAL FORCE RESERVE.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether, when the Territorial Reserve Force is being disbanded or reduced in strength, the position of superfluous officers will be considered with a view to their being transferred, with their consent, to the Volunteer Force, carrying the seniority of their present rank?
Officers of the Territorial Force Reserve on the unemployed list are eligible for commissions in the Volunteer Force. Recommendations for appointment to these commissions are made by the county Volunteer authorities, who will doubtless be glad to consider the applications of Territorial Force Reserve officers for employment when suitable vacancies exist.
Is my hon. Friend aware that some of these officers are already serving in the ranks; and will they be allowed to apply for commissions in the Volunteer Force?
I think there is nothing to prevent them from applying.
asked the Secretary for War whether the Army Council have cancelled a number of officers' commissions in the Territorial Force Reserve who are willing and ready to discharge military duties and have not been reported upon as unfit for service; whether the Army Council are at the same time encouraging the enlisting of a new Volunteer Force and issuing commissions in that force; and whether the Home-defence duties of the Volunteer Force are similar to those assigned to the Territorial Force?
Schemes for the better utilisation of the services of the Volunteers are at present under consideration, and it is not possible, therefore, to institute a comparison. During the formation of supernumerary companies of the Territorial Force for the guarding of vulnerable points the names of a few officers were put forward who were not called on for military duty owing to the lack of opportunity for utilising their services.
MINERS IN ARMY.
asked the Secretary of State for War if he will consider the advisability of recalling those miners now in the Army who have families and who will better serve their country by returning to the mines, thus releasing younger men more fitted for Army service, which, whilst making for greater efficiency, would also be a saving in the cost of the War?
While sympathising with the hon. Member's suggestion, I must point out that there are other considerations involved. Miners serving at the front are trained soldiers, and could only be released in proportion as miners who are at present untrained became sufficiently trained for the front.
MILITARY SERVICE ACTS (IRELAND).
asked the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to make a statement with regard to the Government's intention to extend the Military Service Acts to Ireland?
No, Sir, I am afraid I cannot yet make any statement.
I will repeat the question next week.
REFERENDUM (UNITED KINGDOM).
asked the Prime Minister whether he will take steps to submit the question of the repeal of the Military Service Acts to a Referendum of the people of the United Kingdom?
The answer is in the negative.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that the people of this country should have the same opportunity as was given to the people of Australia? Will he, at any rate, take a Referendum in Ireland on the question of Conscription?
I have nothing to add to the answer I have given.
AGRICULTURAL LABOURERS.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether his attention has been called to the statement of Mr. Thomas Atkins, J.P., chairman of the Ongar Tribunal, concerning the declared intention of the War Office to take more men from agricultural work; whether he is aware that this chairman has declared that the work of his colleagues and himself in trying to act fairly between the farmers and the military authorities was to be undone, and that he intended to throw the job up and make room for others; and whether he can state the latest arrangements that have been reached between his Department and the War Office regarding men of military age employed as agricultural labourers?
My attention had not previously been called to the statements alleged to have been made by the gentleman named.. The latest arrangement made as to agricultural labour was briefly described in an answer to a question by the hon. Member for Tavistock on the 12th of last month, and I am sending my hon. Friend a circular which sets it out in greater detail.. This arrangement does not supersede the work of tribunals, and I feel sure that when he realises this Mr. Thomas Atkins will continue the work he has undertaken for the country with the same gallantry and devotion as distinguishes his namesakes.
INLAND REVENUE CLERKS (IRELAND).
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether Mr. H. Stanley Smith, a junior clerk in the office of the surveyor of taxes in Dundalk, on attaining military age has been refused permission to join His Majesty's Forces; what were the reasons for this refusal; whether, having been accepted subsequently as a recruit for the Royal Field Artillery, Mr. Smith has been obliged to resign his office in order to take up his military duties; and whether he will now be granted the terms offered to Civil servants in the Treasury circular of 20th August 1914, or at least have a promise of reinstatement in his office at the close of -the War?
As I have already explained to my right hon. Friend, the gentleman referred to belonged to a branch of the Inland Revenue Department which is responsible for the collection of some hundreds of millions of war revenue, and is already severely handicapped in the performance of this essentially national work by shortage of appropriate staff. This case does not come within the terms of the circular referred to by my right hon. Friend, and I cannot make any definite promise in such cases, in fairness to those who have observed the rules of the service.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he could not find anybody in Ireland to undertake the duties of this junior clerk?
These duties are very technical, and a very considerable number of men from the service have been allowed to go.
But has the right hon. Gentleman sought in Ireland for anybody who can perform the duties of a junior clerk, and let this man of military age go?
How long has this junior clerk been in the service, and what is his age?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this indispensable clerk has attained the age of eighteen years, and has been about six months in the service of the Inland Revenue, and that his work could be done as efficiently by a girl clerk?
What about the men of forty-one?
Take some more men off the farms.
Shirking by authority.
CONDITIONS OF EXEMPTION.
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been directed to the case in which a London tribunal imposed as a condition of exemption and as an alternative to joining the Volunteer Training Corps that the applicant, a skilled clerk, should do unpaid clerical work for the tribunal; whether any such condition was contemplated at the time of the passing of the Acts; and whether there is any limit to the conditions that may be imposed upon applicants by the tribunals?
A tribunal may impose any condition which is reasonable. Without expressing any opinion on its reasonableness, I doubt whether such a condition as is described is expedient, and I am communicating with the tribunal in question on the subject.
TRANSPORT "THEMISTOCLES" (WAGES).
asked the result of his inquiries into the allegation that the crew of the transport " Themistocles" were threatened with military service in order to get the men to accept a reduction in wages?
A report has been received from the official at the Victoria Docks before whom the crew of the vessel was engaged. When asked to sign on at the "port rate" the victualling department refused. They were subsequntly informed that if they did not feel inclined to sign on they could leave the ship and other men would be engaged in their places. They eventually accepted the "port rate." No threat of military service was used by the Victoria Docks official or by any officer of the ship.
CIVILIAN PRISONERS, RUHLEBEN.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in the proposed exchange of civilian prisoners at Ruhleben, officers of the mercantile marine over forty-five years of age can be included?
The reply to the hon. Member's question is in the affirmative.
NEUTRALS AND PEACE TERMS.
CIRCULATION OF VISCOUNT GREY'S SPEECH.
asked the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs if he will consider the advisability of publishing Viscount Grey's recent speech and of causing a translation of the same to be forwarded wholesale to Spain and Sweden?
The speech is being published to-day by Mr. Fisher Unwin. Translations of it into various languages, including Spanish and Swedish, are being prepared, and all appropriate steps will be taken to ensure its circulation abroad.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the English version will be available at the various bookstalls and other places here?
I will ask about that. I cannot answer now, though I imagine so.
MISS HOBHOUSE (PASSPORT).
asked whether Miss Hobhouse had a passport from the Foreign Office; and, if so, whether she stated for what purpose she was going abroad?
A passport was issued to Miss Hobhouse in March, 1915, to travel to Italy. She stated that she desired to visit that country for reasons of health.
In view of the fact that her statement was not correct, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether she is going to be prosecuted like any ordinary woman, or is she going to be protected by high personages—
The hon. and gallant Member must give notice of that question.
BRITISH PRISONERS OF WAR.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the fact that the Empress of Germany has received in Berlin six Russian nurses and six Danish gentlemen who are to pay a visit of inspection to camps in which Russians are imprisoned; and can he state whether he will endeavour to secure a similar inspection of camps in which British are imprisoned in Germany?
The reply to the first part of the question is in the nega- tive; with regard to the second part of the question, we are satisfied to leave the care of our prisoners of war in Germany in the hands of the United States Ambassador at Berlin.
Has the hon. Gentleman any reason to doubt the accuracy of the "Times" report; and, if that is so, is not all this fuss about Miss Hobhouse absurd?
RUSSIA AND GREAT BRITAIN.
asked whether the views expressed by the Secretary of State for War to an American journalist have been supported by any official statement made on behalf of the Russian Government?
I am not aware that any Allied Government has given an official expression of opinion on this interview or other similar statements made by other Ministers here or in other Allied countries, but I have no reason whatever to suppose that the statement of the Secretary of State for War is not regarded with consent and approval by the Allies. The hon. Member's question appears to be designed to suggest some difference of view or policy between the Allies, but on this as on other occasions he will be disappointed.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Russian Ambassador in London has expressed the view, on behalf of the Russian Government, that he is fully in accord with the statement of the right hon. Gentleman?
I should like notice of that question.
Is there not reason to believe that the Russian Government are not in favour of the prize ring settlement of the combat?
There is no reason to believe that the Russian Government disapprove of anything which my right hon. Friend has said.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any Report from the British Ambassador at Petrograd relating to the apology tendered to him by a political leader for having attacked the Prime Minister of Great Britain, alleging that his statement regarding the exaction of retribution for German misdeeds showed that Great Britain would oppose the conclusion of an advantageous peace between Russia and Germany; and if he has received such a Report will he lay it upon the Table of the House?
No, Sir, I do not consider that this incident, which has been concluded in a most satisfactory manner and the facts regarding which have been correctly reported in the Press, is of sufficient importance or interest to justify the laying of Papers on the subject.
BELGIUM.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received from Mr. Hoover, of the American Committee of Relief for Belgium, an estimate of the material damage done in Belgium by the German invasion and of the number of houses destroyed; if so, will he state what the estimate is; and if he has not received such a report will he take steps to obtain it?
The answer to all parts of this question is in the negative.
Has the Noble Lord received no information at all from this Committee? Is he not aware that the chairman of this Committee estimated that the restoration of Belgium would only cost the expenditure of a few days by this country on the War?
I have no doubt that the Committee rightly consider it outside the scope of their work and incompatible with carrying it on satisfactorily to report on such a subject.
CAMEROONS (EXECUTION OF KING MANGO BELL).
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any information showing that King Mango Bell, paramount chief of Duala region of the Cameroons, was executed by the German authorities upon the approach of the British troops; and, if so, can he state under what circumstances and for what reason this execution took place?
In his dispatch of 24th August, 1915, which will be found on pages 40 to 44 of Cd. 7974, the General Officer Commanding the Cameroons Expeditionary Force reported that " Rudolph Bell" (otherwise Mango Bell), the Chief of the Dualas, was "executed" by the Germans a few days before the fall of Duala, and a large number of Dualas were put to death by them, for no other reason that can be discovered than the usual " frightfulness." I might also refer the hon. Member to paragraphs 14 and 15 of that dispatch, and to paragraphs 3 and 4 of Major-General Sir C. Dobell's dispatch of 28th January, 1916, which has been published as No. 6 of Cd. 8306.
Arising out of the answer of the right hon. Gentleman, of which I did not hear much, were King Mango Bell and other natives executed because they were supposed to be pro-British?
I have no reason to doubt that that would have some bearing.
GERMAN EAST AFRICA.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether be can make a statement to the House as to the present phase of the military operations in German East Africa; and can he state what arrangements, if any, are being made with regard to the government and administration of affairs in this territory?
I would refer the hon. Member to the statements which appeared in the Press on the 20th and 28th October. The military situation, as described therein, has not altered materially. An experienced officer selected from the Colonial service will shortly leave this country to estabish a provisional civil administration in those parts of the conquered territory which are no longer the scene of military operations.
Will he report direct to the Colonial Office or to the Cape?
To the Colonial Office.
CEYLON RIOTS.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has received a Report upon the circumstances in which W. P. Singho met his death after the Ceylon riots had ceased; whether the death was certified as homicide; whether he is satisfied that before being shot Singho was properly tried and condemned by a regularly constituted Court; and, if not, whether he will request the Governor of Ceylon to cause a full inquiry to. be made into this case and lay the Report upon the Table of the House?
This case is under investigation by the Governor of Ceylon, and when I receive his Report I shall communicate with the hon. Member.
AUSTRALIAN IMPERIAL FORCES.
REFERENDUM ON CONSCRIPTION.
asked whether the final result of the referendum on Conscription in Australia is yet to hand and, if so, what are the figures; and, if not, when the result is likely to be declared?
I do not know when the final result of the referendum on Conscription in Australia is likely to be declared.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can state the latest return of voting in the referendum on Conscription in Australia?
I have no information beyond what has appeared in the Press.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether a vote in reference to the question of Conscription in Australia was begun but not terminated among Australian troops now stationed in England; and, if so, whether he can give an explanation of these events?
I understand that the voting was begun three weeks ago and was wholly completed by Saturday, 28th October. The hon. Member will realise that it had to be conducted with reference to the naval and military situation.
May I ask if it is the fact that after certain Australian soldiers had recorded their votes those votes were torn up and a fresh vote instituted?
I am not aware of that at all. I do not know that the War Office is concerned with it.
Will any inquiry be made?
Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the arrangements were conducted on behalf of the War Office or on behalf of the Australian Government by officials?
I should like notice of that question.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that General Birdwood, the Imperial officer commanding the Australian Forces in France, issued a personal appeal by letter to Australian soldiers in France and Great Britain urging them to vote for Conscription for Australia in connection with the referendum; and can he state whether this action was taken by direction of the War Office or of the Commonwealth authorities?
I know nothing of such an appeal, and the War Office was not consulted on the subject.
POSTAL ARRANGEMENTS.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether letters written by Australian soldiers in England to their homes in Australia frequently Tail to reach their destinations, and letters written from Australia to Australian soldiers here are frequently intercepted and withheld without any explanation; and, if so, what explanation can be given of such proceedings?
I am not aware that letters posted by Australian soldiers in this country frequently fail to reach the addresses in Australia, or that letters for Australian soldiers here are intercepted and detained. If the hon. Member can give me particulars of any concrete cases, I will have inquiry made.
HEALTH OF TROOPS.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he can state the figures showing the number of deaths from pneumonia during last year among Australian soldiers at Perham Downs; and whether, in view of the difference between the climate of this country and that of Australia, extra precautions will be taken this year to ensure that the health of the Australian troops here shall be maintained at as high a level as possible?
I have not the figures available, but I can assure the hon. Member that the medical officers, who are themselves Australians, are fully alive to the point, and all precautions are being taken.
PAY (ARREARS).
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether complaints have reached him that Australian soldiers to whom considerable arrears are due have been unable to obtain payment at the pay offices in London, and that this has caused them inconvenience; and whether some suitable arrangements will be made?
No, Sir; this is a matter for the Australian authorities, and I will forward to them a copy of my hon. Friend's question.
NIGERIA.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies on which day he will lay upon the Table the conditions of sale of enemy properties in Nigeria; and whether this House will be given an opportunity of discussing the whole matter before the sale takes place?
The conditions of sale were laid on the Table yesterday. I do not think that any useful purpose would be served by the discussion suggested by my hon. Friend, but if there is any general desire for it I am sure that my right hon. Friend would give facilities for it.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are many details in the Bill and the conditions of sale, such as the discretion of the Governor, which are causing a great deal of disquiet in this country, and does he not think that it would be better to have them considered in this House?
I am not aware of any disquiet that has been caused. As I have already said, if there is any general desire for a discussion, I am aure that the Prime Minister will be willing to arrange it.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that under the conditions of sale neutrals are allowed to purchase these enemy properties m Nigeria, thereby establishing further alien control?
Does the right hon. Gentleman not think it important that the House should once for all settle whether these properties, which are derived from winding-up German businesses, ought not to be handed over to British rather than neutral countries, with a view to developing these Colonies for ourselves?
As there seems to be some general desire to discuss the matter, if my right hon. Friend will put a question to the Prime Minister to-morrow I shall discuss it with him in the meantime.
Will the conditions of sale be at the disposal of the House so that we can see what are the proposals of the Government in Nigeria?
Hon. Members have the opportunity of examining them. They would be a voluminous thing to circulate.
Can the Bill be circulated?
I will consider that.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will be prepared to reconsider his decision that; the enemy properties in Nigeria are not to> be sold to an all-British company, with official representation on its board of directors, if such company were willing to submit to a fair-price clause or other effective arrangements to ensure the payment of fair prices to the natives for their produce?
I do not know to what decision my hon. Friend is referring. Any British company which is not acting: on behalf of enemy interests will be able to bid for the properties at the auction.
How can you tell whether he is bidding for an enemy or not?
The provisions in the conditions of sale make every effort to secure—I believe successfully; we are-quite ready to discuss it—that the property shall not be transferred to enemies, at any time.
Will the right hon.. Gentleman consider the offer of a British-company to take over these properties at a fair valuation made by the Government?
I have seen no such definite offer on behalf of any British company. All the information which I have about it is a letter from a very influential gentleman, the chairman of the West African Committee, sending me-copies of the questions which were going; to be put by my hon. Friend, and saying that if the suggestion were agreed to they should be prepared to form a company.
My right hon. Friend has not answered what I asked. Will he consider, if the offer is made to the Government, whether they would sell at a fair valuation?
If the matter is to be discussed, it can be dealt with very much better in Debate than by question and answer.
As there is already a very close combination, should we do anything to make that combination still more complete?
Of course, that kind of consideration has had weight with the Colonial Office in the decision which they have taken.
Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that one great advantage of an all-British company would be greater Government control for the purpose of insuring to natives a fair price for their products?
FAIR-WAGES CLAUSE.
asked the Secretary for War whether his attention has been called to a small shop strike among marble masons in Manchester for the purpose of bringing one particular employer up to the level of the other employers in respect of standard wages; whether he is aware that two men involved in the dispute have received from their employer a letter, typewritten on his business paper, informing them that he has obtained a communication from the military representative, dated 18th October, that the men must report for service with the Colours at once; whether it is the intention of the War Office that the Military Service Acts should thus be used to help employers who refuse to pay fair wages; and, if not, what action he proposes to take to stop such glaring instances of industrial conscription?
I am not aware of the circumstances in this case, but am making inquiries.
MILITARY OCCUPATION OF HOTELS AND CLUBS.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether it is always stated by his Department in requisitioning hotels or clubs for military purposes that no rent whatever will be paid in the way of remuneration for the use of these buildings; and, if not, whether, in point of fact, rent has never yet been paid in any case for the use of an hotel or club for his Department?
The answer is in the negative.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that no arrangement is made, and that I have instances?
AIRCRAFT RAIDS.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the frequency of aircraft attacks and the primary necessity for rapidity in transmitting information as to their movements and anticipated direction, every effort is being made by the War Office to ensure at home simplicity in telephonic transmission of this information; if codes are necessary, are they of such a nature as to be easily and quickly understood by telephonists who may not as yet have had long experience or whose education may in some cases not be of the best; and are steps taken to prevent such codes leading to errors?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The hon. Member will, I am sure, agree with me that no information can be given as to whether codes are or are not in use.
asked whether insurance against injuries or loss of life due to Zeppelin raids can be effected under the Government scheme?
I am much obliged to my hon. Friend for putting this question, which enables me to correct a misstatement which, owing to a misunderstanding, I made in an answer I gave him on 18th October. I then implied that it was possible to insure against injuries or loss of life under the Government scheme. This, of course, is not the case. In the opinion of the Government ample facilities already exist in the open market.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the question of appointing a small committee to inquire and report as to the desirability of making this a national liability and not a personal loss?
Yes.
ROYAL NAVAL DIVISION (RESERVE UNITS).
asked the Secretary of State for War whether it is intended to remove the Reserve units of he Royal Naval Division from the camp built for that division at Blandford by the Admiralty and to convert it into a German prisoners' camp; whether he is aware of the inconvenience and loss both to administration and to the pensioner instructors who have made their homes at Blandford that such a change would cause; and whether he will consider the possibility of sending the German prisoners to work in France?
It is not intended to remove the Reserve units of the Royal Naval Division from Blandford, nor is it intended to convert the camp into a prisoners of war camp.
COUNTY OF LONDON VOLUNTEERS (MEDICAL ARRANGEMENTS).
asked the Secretary of State for War whether there are any medical arrangements for the County of London Volunteers; whether he is aware that accidents occur during training on Sundays and that the provision of medical assistance is haphazard; whether he is aware that many doctors would be willing to give their services regularly if they were recognised on the old regimental system whereby they could be allocated to the Volunteers in their own district; and whether he will devise a system which would utilise such men for a very desirable purpose?
A scheme for the formation of a medical service as part of the Volunteer organisation has been prepared, but certain details remain to be settled. It is hoped, however, that the necessary instructions will be issued shortly. The considerations referred to in the question have been borne in mind in framing the scheme mentioned above.
When is it likely to be published?
I hope very soon.
IRISH REGIMENTS (TRANSFERS).
asked the Secretary of State for War if a Circular has been issued authorising officers of regiments to invite Irishmen serving under them to transfer to Irish regiments?
asked the Secretary of State for War whether an Army Order was issued some months ago directing that any man called up from Class B Army Reserve who is of Irish nationality and, wishes to join an Irish regiment will be sent to the depot of the regiment he wishes to join, and will be there appointed to that regiment; whether he is aware of the fact that there are numerous complaints of Irishmen who, notwithstanding the Order, are, against their will, sent to English, Scottish, and Welsh regiments; and whether there is any objection to the Army Order in question being published in the public Press?
As the instructions to which the hon. and learned Member refers are of general interest, I will quote them textually:— In consequence of the low state of recruiting in Ireland, any man called up from Class B, Army Reserve, who is of Irish nationality and classified in Category A, should be asked whether he wishes to join an Irish regiment, and will, if he so desires, be sent to the depot of the Irish regiment he wishes to join, and will there be appointed to that regiment. The War Office is not aware of the prevalence of complaints that Irishmen are sent to English, Scottish, or Welsh regiments.
Will the same privilege be extended to English soldiers?
Has the Circular referred to been or will it be sent to the men themselves; and I should like to know if there is any case where the men are not informed of the existence of this Circular?
The instructions I have just read direct that the question is to be put to the man; that the man is to be given the choice
Is the hon. Gentleman prepared to extend that privilege to. English, Scottish, and Welsh soldiers?
I will consult with my right hon. Friend.
Do I understand that the Circulars are not to be addressed to the men, but that they are to be questioned by the officers?
I think a moment's consideration will show that it would be impossible to circulate it to the men.
Why?
ARMY PROMOTIONS.
asked the Secretary of State for War if his Department will make further inquiries into the discontent among young fighting lieutenants at the front who declare that they are not having the chances of promotion they are entitled to; and if he will see that promotion in future shall depend upon fitness and service and not upon friendly, family, or other influence?
Professional fitness is the sole consideration in deciding questions of promotion. The insinuation contained in the last part of the question is wholly unwarranted.
May I give you proof to substantiate my charges?
Move the Adjournment.
Why not have an inquiry?
Yes; I challenge inquiry into the truth.
Apart from what is said in the question, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a considerable amount of discontent among men serving at the front on account of men sent from this country who obtained promotion in this country and who naturally rank over the men who have been fighting at the front. That is really a point of importance?
Yes; I am aware of that, and I dealt with that point in a question quite recently. That is a very different point from that made by the hon. Member in his question.
I notice that my question has been cut down and does not explain the matter clearly to the House.
ARMY FIELD PUNISHMENT.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been drawn to the death of a British soldier in France when undergoing field punishment No. 1, generally known as " crucifixion," inflicted for the loss of a gas helmet; and will he take steps for the abolition of this method of punishment?
It will facilitate inquiry if the hon. Member will inform me of the name, number and regiment of the soldier who is stated to have died in France under the circumstances suggested.
May I ask if apart from this specific case mentioned he will secure the abolition of this form of punishment?
NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether his attention has been called to the case of Frank Siddall, 10th North Staffordshire, No. 18161, who died at Rugeley Camp 30th January, 1916, and was returned as a consumptive although he had never suffered from this disease before; whether he is aware that this man left a widow and three young children, the family receiving 23s. for six months after his death, when it was discontinued and the widow was informed that nothing further could be done for her, and that she is now receiving Poor Law relief; whether he is aware that Thomas Lewin Nixon, 2/5th North Staffordshire, No. 3589, length of service one year and 159 days, was discharged as no longer fit for war service on the 13th March, 1916; that he met with an accident whilst in training and was sent to Cambridge Hospital for an operation; that there are four young children; that the man received 5s. for six months, which has been discontinued; and that he has been reduced to Poor Law relief; and whether, as these men have died or become incapacitated in the country's service, he will say what steps he intends to take to ensure that they or their dependants shall receive adequate allowances from the National Exchequer instead of being thrown on Poor Law assistance?
Inquiries are being made, and I will inform my hon. Friend of the result in due course.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether Mrs. Annie F. Douglas, the widowed mother of Second-Lieutenant Andrew Douglas, 3rd (attached 2nd) Black Watch, who died of wounds in Mesopotamia on 19th February, has been refused a pension; if so, on what ground the refusal is based; and whether this decision will be reviewed?
The ground of the refusal is that this officer's mother was not dependent upon him, and I regret that in the circumstances it is not possible to reconsider the decision.
Are we to understand that in a case where parents either apprentice their children to professions or send them to universities that thereby there is no pre-war dependence, and those parents are to be penalised for the sacrifices made in the interests of their children?
I do not think it is fair to say that the parents are to be penalised.
They are so penalised.
The qualification for the issue of pensions out of Army funds is in accordance with the views of the Select Committee, with which the hon. Member is quite familiar.
Is it not the case that the Statutory Committee have expressly considered these cases and are prepared to listen to any case where a ood claim can be made out?
The Statutory Committee, as everybody knows, was appointed for that purpose.
Is it not the case that, whether this woman was eligible or not, she cannot get it because the officer died in Mesopotamia?
It does not matter where the officer dies.
If he dies in Mesopotamia it does.
This is really becoming a debate.
I will raise it on the Adjournment.
asked the Prime Minister whether the attention of the Government has bean called to a resolution of the Walstanton and Burslem Union respecting the question of soldiers and sailors who have died after joining the forces, or who have been discharged as medically unfit, and to the fact that there are cases who are not in receipt of any amount from the Government in which hardship ensues; that many cases of such soldiers and sailors or their dependants are becoming chargeable to the Poor Law, their application for pensions having been refused; that the support of such cases should not be a local charge; that, as the men were examined and passed as fit by a medical board and died or become incapacitated in the country's service, the responsibility for the support of such soldiers and sailors or their dependants should be a national one and borne by the National Exchequer; and can he state the Government's intentions respecting the same?
This matter is receiving most careful consideration.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are thousands of men in these circumstances, who were accepted as medically fit and have been discharged as physically unfit, who have no pension and whose wives have no separation allowance?
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to a resolution unanimously adopted by the Wolstanton and Burslem Union respecting the question of soldiers and sailors who have died after joining His Majesty's Forces, or who have been discharged as medically unfit for further service, and to the fact that in many cases such soldiers or sailors, or their dependants, are becoming chargeable to the Poor Law, their application for pensions having been refused; that the support of such cases should not be a local charge; that, as these men have died or become incapacitated in the country's service, the responsibility for the support of such soldiers or sailors, or their dependants, should be a national one and the charge be borne by the National Exchequer; and can he say what steps he proposes to take in the matter?
The resolution referred to does not appear to have been sent to me, and the question seems to be primarily one for the War Office and the Admiralty rather than for my Department. It will no doubt come under consideration by the new pensions authority.
CUSTOMS AND EXCISE (TAX COLLECTORS).
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to the remuneration paid to tax collectors in country districts and the conditions of their work; whether he is aware that for a collector to cover an area eighteen miles in length, comprising a dozen parishes, working four and a-half days per week all the year round, at a total remuneration as collector and assessor of £29 10s., less expenses £8 10s., is a typical case; that, although these men received a 10 per cent, increase last year, their work has been trebled; that they have been urged to expedite the collection of the taxes in the interests of the country; and whether he will consider the desirability of substantially increasing the remuneration of these men, who individually collect thousands of pounds in the course of the year, of having a new delimitation of districts, and of reforming the present methods under which the men have to work?
I think my right hon. Friend must be under a misapprehension. So far from the case in the question being typical of country collections, I am not aware that any instance of it exists, nor has the delimitation of districts given rise to any difficulty. Unquestionably recent legislation has added largely to the work of collectors. This matter has engaged the attention of the Board of Inland Revenue with the result that the remuneration of collectors throughout the country has been substantially increased.
WAR SAVINGS COMMITTEE (SCOTLAND).
The following question stood on the Paper in the name of Mr. WATT:
69. To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with reference to the War Savings Committee set up in Scotland, whether the first chairman appointed to that Committee has since resigned; and, if so, will he state the reason for such resigning?
In asking No. 69, may I say that this question also has been subedited.
Sir Charles Bine Renshaw, the first chairman of the Scottish War Savings Committee, resigned on accepting the appointment of chairman of the Board of Referees in connection with the Excess Profits Duty, as he felt that it would be impracticable to discharge the duties of both offices at the same time.
DISTURBANCES IN IRELAND.
UNTRIED PBISONEBS.
asked the Prime Minister whether he will give an opportunity for the discussion of the Motion in reference to the Irish political prisoners which stands in the name of the Member for East Mayo?—[" That the time has come when all untried prisoners detained in connection with the Irish insurrection should be released, and that all the Irish prisoners convicted of complicity in that insurrection should, in accordance with the modern practice of civilised States, be treated as political prisoners."]
This matter was dealt with in the recent Debate, but if my hon. Friend wishes it I will endeavour to find time for a discussion of his Motion.
Will the Prime Minister's questions start at No. 70 in future instead of at No. 45?
I believe that is so.
asked the Home Secretary if Daniel Donoghue, of Bandon, county Cork, now an interned prisoner at Frongoch, is suffering from sciatica; and, if so, will he be released immediately?
I am informed that Donoghue complains of slight rheumatism in the hip. He has received medical treatment at Frongoch from time to time for various minor ailments, but it has not been necessary to send him to hospital. The reply to the last part of the question is in the negative.
WOUNDED SOLDIERS (ACCIDENT ASSURANCE).
asked the Prime Minister if he is aware that insurance companies are refusing to accept responsibility for " accident insurance for returned wounded soldiers; and whether the Government will consider the advisability of setting up a Government Insurance Department so as to secure that soldiers do not suffer from unemployment because employers dare not accept the responsibility?
I have made some inquiries into this matter, but their results do not bear out the suggestion put forward in the first part of the question. But if my hon. Friend has any particular instances in mind, I should be much obliged if he would bring them to the notice of the Statutory Committee of the Royal Patriotic Fund Corporation. For the present, the second part of the question does not arise.
Is the Prime Minister aware that any assistance from the Statutory Committee as suggested would be purely voluntary, whereas men want their compensation as a matter of right? Is it not the case that the Statutory Committee can give or refuse grants in urgent cases?
I should like notice of that.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that employers to-day are refusing to take back into their employ men who are partially incapacitated? Will he do something to alter that state of things after men have been fighting for their country?
If the hon. Gentleman will bring the facts to my notice I will consider them.
I will give the right hon. Gentleman several cases.
ENEMY PROPERTY.
asked whether it is intended that the millions held for Germans by the Public Trustee till the end of the War are to be considered an asset for Germany in the terms of peace; and, if so, are British businesses in Germany treated in the same way?
The question of the treatment of enemy property at present in the hands of the custodian and of British property in the hands of enemy Governments will necessarily come up for consideration in connection with the terms of peace, but it would not be in the public interest to make any statement at the present time as to the precise manner in which His Majesty's Government would propose that the matter should be dealt with.
Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether or not the money which has been collected for Germans is-to be an asset in the terms of peace?
I cannot add anything to my answer.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on the outbreak of war very drastic steps were taken in Germany, on behalf of the German Government, that businesses were broken up or charged with great deductions for salaries for several years ahead in order to deplete their bank balances? Will special inquiry be made? \
I will consider that.
What is the answer to the last part of the question—whether British businesses in Germany are treated in the same way?
I will inquire into that.
Would it not be possible for the Government to issue a statement as to the treatment of Allied property in enemy countries?
I will consider that.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will issue a Parliamentary Paper giving particulars of the enemy alien firms already wound up and now being wound up, with particulars as to how the assets are being realised in each case?
Lists of cases in respect of which Orders have been made under Section 1 of the Trading With the Enemy (Amendment) Act, 1916, are published from time to time in the London Gazette and in the Board of Trade Journal. A return of such cases is also made to Parliament every two months. It would be impracticable without the expenditure of a very great deal of time and labour to furnish particulars as to how the assets are being realised in each of the 344 cases in which Orders have been made.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether leave has been granted to any firm, corporation or company to trade with the enemy since the outbreak of war; and, if so, under what conditions?
Permission has been given under general licences for the payment of patent and trade mark fees in enemy countries on behalf of British subjects and of similar fees in this country on behalf of enemies, and also for the payment of freight and other necessary charges in order to enable British owners of cargo on an enemy ship lying in a neutral port to obtain possession of such cargo. Licences to import specified goods of enemy origin have been issued when it was clearly to the advantage of this country to obtain them, and the sale of British-owned goods in enemy countries has been authorised in certain special cases. Payments to enemies have been allowed in certain other cases, in order to preserve a British interest. The main consideration in all those cases is that the transaction should be proved to be so greatly to the advantage of this country as to justify a relaxation of the prohibition against trading with the enemy which in other circumstances is rigidly enforced?
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether any licence has been given to sell the property of a British company here, which property is in Germany, to the Germans, large sums being paid by them to the company here?
I am afraid I cannot answer that without notice.
Who arranges whether or not these facilities shall be given—in whose hands is the power?
The decision in most cases rests ultimately with the Board of Trade acting with the advice of the Advisory Committee.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the fact that it apparently takes over two years to wind up a German business, he can say what steps the Government are taking to prevent the unwound-up German businesses from continuing after the War is over in this country?
The Trading With the Enemy (Amendment) Act, under which winding-up Orders are made, came into operation on 27th January last, and the first Order thereunder was made on 24th February. Many of the businesses have already been practically wound up. If there should be any case in which the winding-up may not be complete at the termination of the War, I may point out to the hon. Member that Sub-section (10) of Section 1 of the Act of 1916 provides that "An Order made under this Section shall continue in force notwithstanding the termination of the present War until determined by order of the Board of Trade."
Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many German firms, have been actually and finally wound up?
I do not think I could say how many have been actually and finally wound up; but we have dealt with a very large number of cases. If my right hon. and learned Friend would give me notice of the question I will give him full particulars of the various classes; that probably will be the most satisfactory way of replying.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the fact that the head of the firm of Kasner and Company, 191, Regent Street, and other addresses, is interned, and that it is a German firm, he can say why this firm which manufactures and deals in pianos has not been wound up?
An Order for the winding-up of the business of Kastner and Company, Limited, was made on the 26th June last, but the assets are at present under the control of a Receiver for debenture-holders, who was appointed by the Court in a debenture action before the Order was made under the Trading With the Enemy (Amendment) Act, 1916.
Of what nationality was the debenture-holder who took proceedings?
Was the receiving order made the day before the Order bringing in the controller under the Trading With the Enemy Act?
I could not say from memory.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the; former London manager of A. W. Faber and Company, an enemy firm which is being wound up, is now carrying on a similar business on his own account;. whether he is, with the consent of the I Board of Trade, importing goods from the firm of A. W. Faber and Company, New Jersey, United States of America, which is or was connected with the London firm of A. W. Faber and Company and is entirely German; and what steps, if any, he proposes to take in the matter?
The answer to the first part of the right hon. Gentleman's question is in the affirmative. The Board of Trade did not raise any objections to this importation, nor had they any power to do so.
May I ask whether it is not the case that you can prohibit goods coming from an enemy firm in America if you wish?
Of course, my right hon. Friend will realise that this question turns on what is an enemy firm and what is not. That does not rest with the Board of Trade to determine. A separate Department has been set up to deal with it.
Is not the result of the winding-up of this enemy firm that everything goes on exactly as before?
Upon what principle does the right hon. Gentleman act in the selection of firms who shall or shall not send their goods to this country if they are associated with enemy concerns in neutral countries?
I think the hon. Gentleman will have to give notice of that; but I must point out that, under the last Trading With the Enemy Act, there is provision made for the drawing up of a statutory list, and if a firm is on that statutory list it is illegal to trade with that firm.
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS, COMMITTEES, ETC (MONTHLY LIST).
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the multiplication of Government Departments, Committees, and Offices and the official staff changes necessitated by. the War, he will, for the convenience of the public, arrange for the issue of a monthly official list of all such Departments, Committees, and Offices, giving their addresses and the names of the Ministers, secretaries, or chief officials connected with them?
A list of I Public Departments, showing the names of Ministers, heads of Departments, and their private secretaries, is compiled by the Stationery Office three times a year. It would not be practicable to revise the list more frequently. With regard to Committees, I must refer my hon. Friend to my reply of the 19th October to the hon. Member for West Down. I will see if I can bring the list therein referred to more up to date.
Will the right hon. Gentleman arrange to have it published with the others that are published?
I will consider that.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Government have never published the names of the members at all?
Is that so?
PENSION CLERKS (REMUNERATION).
asked if it is the intention of the Treasury to grant the same rates of remuneration to pension clerks for investigating claims for increased allowances to old age pensioners as the rates granted under the Old Age Pension scheme?
The question of the scale of payment to be made to clerks to Pension Committees for this work is under consideration. I hope that an announcement will be made to the Committees shortly.
FEEDING STUFFS (PRICES).
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether his attention has been drawn to the expected increase in the profits of oil and cake manufacturers in this country from the enactment of a duty of £2 per ton on palm kernels exported from West Africa; and whether, in view of the increase already in the profits of these companies, he can do anything to secure for the British farmer some share from the increased profit likely to accrue by obtaining a reduction in the price of feeding stuffs from these manufacturers who are likely to benefit from the new duties?
I understand that the duty in question is not one of £2 but of 22s. 6d., which was imposed as from the 7th October last on palm-kernels exported from Nigeria, not from the other parts of British West Africa, from which we obtain about thirty-five per cent, of our supplies of this article. Firms in this country which had already at that date any considerable stocks of palm kernels from Nigeria are probably deriving some temporary benefit because of the duty, but I do not see that oil and cake manufacturers generally will benefit by the duty as they will presumably have to pay more in future for the palm kernels without a corresponding increase in the selling price of the cake. On the question of the profits of oil and cake manufacturers owing to other causes, I beg leave to refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I shall make to his next question.
Can the right hon. Gentleman state what earthly good or what object is to be hoped for from the imposition of these duties?
That is a question for this House, not for the Board of Agriculture.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether his attention has been drawn to the increase in the cost of feeding stuffs; and whether, in view of the effect of this increased cost upon the price of milk, he can take steps to secure a reduced price for feeding stuffs, in view of the increase in profits by the various oil and cake mills in this country, which in some cases have increased their dividends from 5 per cent, in 1913 to 15 per cent, in 1915?
I understand my hon. Friend to suggest that some steps should be taken to keep down the retail prices of feeding cakes, so that milk production may be cheapened. As the supply of these cakes is dependent on the importation of seeds, nuts, and other materials from abroad, it is not easy to see how the cost of them in this country could readily be controlled; and, as at present advised, it is not the intention of the Board to recommend that retail prices of any feeding stuffs should be fixed. If my hon. Friend knows of particular cases in which mills appear to be making unreasonable or excessive profits, and will communicate them to me, I will gladly see that they are brought to the notice of the proper authority.
MUNITIONS.
T.N.T. POISONING.
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the inquest on Mrs. Lydia Elizabeth Gibson, aged twenty-four, of Ponder's End, Enfield, who died in St. Bartholomew's Hospital from the effects of T.N.T. poisoning; whether he is aware that it was stated on evidence that the recommendations and precautions against this industrial disease are not being observed at Woolwich; that it was stated by Dr. Collis, the Home Office medical inspector, that as regards the health of women examiners the whole machinery of protection against poisoning had broken down; that the coroner declared that such cases occurred time and again and that it was impossible to find out who was responsible; and if he will say what further action is to be taken to protect all concerned against the poisonous effect of T.N.T. !
The deceased in this case was an examiner in the service of the Inspection Department of the Ministry of Munitions, and was employed by that Department at a factory in the north of London; and, as I explained in answer to a recent question by the Noble Lord the Member for South Nottingham, the usual precautions had not been carried out in her case owing to a misunderstanding as to her position. It was to this point that Dr. Collis drew attention at the inquest. No reference was made to the conditions at Woolwich, "where, I am informed, the greatest care is exercised, nor was the deceased in any way connected with the Arsenal, but the Inspection Department used to have its headquarters at Woolwich and its examiners were, and still frequently are, referred to as Woolwich examiners. This, no doubt, gave rise to the erroneous impression that the Arsenal authorities were concerned in the case. As regards the steps being taken to protect workers against this disease, I would refer the hon. Member to answers to recent questions on this subject.
CONTROLLED ESTABLISHMENTS.
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he has received a communication, signed on behalf of the etc., engaged in the controlled establishments of Kirkcaldy and district, complaining that after having been granted a penny an hour on time rates to start on 22nd September, this concession has now been annulled and replaced with a three-farthing increase, a sum which is much below the amount paid in other districts on the East Coast of Scotland; and if he can give any reason why they should not be placed on the same rates?
I have received the communication referred to by my right hon. Friend. It is understood that the offer of one penny per hour increase made by the employers was made on the assumption that this corresponded to the increase recently granted by the Committee on Production to members of the Amalagamated Society of Engineers on the Tyne and Clyde. It was, however, discovered that three-farthings per hour, in fact, represented this advance, and the employers amended their original offer. It appears that this three-farthings taken with the penny advance previously granted to the men gives them the same increase as has been given in other districts, both as regards the amount of the present advance and as regards the total advance given since the outbreak of war.
'I should add that rates varied from district to district before the War, so that the equal advances given during the War have not changed the relative levels.
SEIZURE OF BOOKS.
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that on 3rd July the local police at Rhondda prohibited the purchase of the following books from America by Mr. Mainwaring: "Barbarous Mexico," "Evolution (Social and Organic)," "Capital" (Marx), "Evolution of Property," " High Cost of Living," "Universal Kinship," "Germs of Mind in Plants," " Savage Survivals," "Law of Biogenesis," "World's Revolutions'," and "Socialism for Students"; and will he state under what principle books of this kind are prevented from entering the country?
The importation of these books was not prohibited by the police. I am informed by the War Office that the letter which contained the order for these books and notes in payment was written in May last, and was detained for reasons unconnected with the order for the books. The notes were returned to the writer through the local police. I understand that if Mr. Main-waring will repeat the order his letter will be forwarded.
OFFENDING PUBLICATIONS.
asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the number of cases in which magistrates have recently convicted men and women for agitation or distribution of leaflets against Conscription, he will take any measures to secure the fulfilment of the Government pledge given him on 17th January?
I should be obliged if the hon. Member would send me particulars of the cases he has in mind.
SHOPS (EARLIER CLOSING). AUTOMATIC MACHINES.
asked the Home Secretary whether the sale of articles by automatic machines will be allowed after the hours at which shopkeepers are compelled to close shops for the sale of similar articles?
asked the Home Secretary whether it is proposed to bring penny-in-the-slot machines that distribute cigarettes, confectionery, and scent within the scope of the recent Order for the early closing of shops; and, if so, what method will be used to bring about the desired result?
Sales by means of automatic machines in public places have been held to be outside the provisions of the Shops Act, and it is not proposed to bring them within the scope of the new Order.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman see that this will inflict great hardship on the small shopkeeper, whose business may be taken by people holding automatic machines?
The position is the same as it has been for many years past under the Shops Act; also Early Closing Orders apply to large numbers, and to a good many places—to confectioners and tobacconists. It is not, of course, practicable to apply them to automatic machines. The matter is regarded as so trivial that the trade has hitherto considered it unimportant. The Home Office have received practically no complaints.
CHRISTMAS AND NEW YEAR TRADE.
asked the Home Secretary whether, in connection with the Order for early closing of shops, any proposal has been considered for keeping open shops to a later hour for, say, two weeks in December and one week in January in view of the Christmas and New Year trade; and whether any decision has been arrived at?
As I have already stated, this matter will be considered after I have received the views of the local authorities whom I have consulted on the point. The case of Scotland will be considered by the Secretary for Scotland.
BRITISH GOODS (CIRCULATING EXHIBITION).
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he has considered the advisability of arranging for a circulating exhibition of British goods in the various parts of the British Empire and in the chief neutral countries; and, if so, can he give the House any information with regard to the matter?
I have had under consideration the possibility of arranging for an exhibition of British manufactures which would visit the principal commercial centres in the Dominions, and am now in communication with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies on the subject. My hon. Friend will appreciate that extensive preparations will have to be made, should an exhibition of the kind prove practicable. As at present advised, I do not contemplate attempting to include in the present scheme exhibitions in neutral countries.
MILK SUPPLY.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has considered the advisability of prohibiting the sale of milk until it has been cooled or refrigerated; whether such a measure would enable towns to get their supplies once daily instead of two or three times, thus obviating the necessity for ex- cessively early hours and leading to economy in working expenses; and whether he proposes to take any action?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. As the hon. Member is aware, the Milk and Dairies (Consolidation) Act, 1915, enables the Local Government Board to make Orders regulating the cooling, conveyance, and distribution of milk intended for sale for human consumption. The operation of that Act has been suspended in consequence of the War. In a large number of cases cooling is now practised. I will consider whether any further action should be taken.
Does that also apply to Scotland?
I am afraid I do not know.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has now received particulars of the price of Is. 6d. per gallon charged by dairy farmers for milk delivered in Glasgow; and whether he proposes to take any local action?
I have been informed that the price of Is. 6d. per gallon relates to milk delivered by the farmers on the premises of the distributing dairymen. Further particulars regarding these contracts appear to me to be required before a final opinion can be arrived at with respect to the reasonableness or unreasonableness of the price, and I am causing further information to be obtained.
NEW ZEALAND CHEESE.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the agents representing the New Zealand cheese sellers in Tooley Street, London, made an offer to the Government some time ago to sell all their cheese at a reasonable price, which offer was refused; if he is aware that the Government afterwards made large purchases of cheese at a very much higher rate than that offered by the New Zealand agents, with the result that the price of cheese increased to consumers; and if he can give any reasons why the Government refused to accept the offer made by the New Zealand agents?
I know of no such offer having been made either to the Board of Trade or to the War Office.
FOOD SUPPLIES.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware of the discrepancy between prices charged for necessities of life not only as between town and town, but as between shop and shop, and that margarine, as an example, varies in London from Is. to 6d.; and if he will consider the advisability of putting up notices at certain post offices of fair prices for the more important necessities of life?
I am aware that different qualities of the same commodity are commonly sold at different prices, as in the instance cited by my hon. Friend, and that it is common for the same article to be sold at various prices in shops catering for different classes of customers. The action suggested by my hon. Friend might, I think, do more harm than good.
MERCHANT TONNAGE UNDER CONSTRUCTION.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the fact that neutral owners are offering ships made in this country by our own starred labour to British owners at a great profit to the neutral owners, he will say why, as allowed by the contract, he does not take over these ships at contract price and sell them to British purchasers for the best price he can get, instead of allowing these profits to go to foreigners on ships constructed by British starred labour?
In the case of two ships there is a Clause in the contract providing for the ships being taken over by the Government If advantage be not taken of this Clause, it will be because some other arrangement is made which is on the whole more to the public interest under present circumstances.
Does the question Of the Government taking over these ships apply to two ships or to all?
Some of the contracts relate to the period before there was anything in the nature of war; the Clause was not likely to be in existence then.
INSURANCE POLICIES LAPSED.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that about 2,312,000 assurance policies have been lapsed by the Prudential Assurance Company alone during the last two years; and whether, in view of the fact that other insurance companies have-also lapsed more millions of policies, many of them being those of soldiers and sailors, he will have an independent inquiry instituted on the lapsing of these policies and on the way in which the assurance companies have evaded the Courts-(Emergency Powers) Act, 1914?
The figure given in the hon. and gallant Gentleman's question is in accordance with the particulars appearing in the published reports of the Prudential Assurance Company, Limited, except that the number appears to include surrenders of policies in the ordinary branch, and I am informed by the company that it also includes policies which have been discontinued when a fully paid-up policy has been issued and policies on which no premiums have been paid. I understand that two-thirds of the lapsed policies had been in existence less than a year, and three-quarters less than two years. As the hon. and gallant Member is aware, the Courts (Emergency Powers) Act prevents the lapsing of industrial policies for amounts not exceeding £25, on which premiums have been paid for two years, without the consent of the Court. I am considering whether any additional safeguards are required besides those contained in the Act.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that instructions have been issued to agents by superintendents that where payments get into arrears new policies are to be issued, and if the effect of this is that the old policies lapse and the insurance company get out of paying any, or almost any, money on the old policies and the people lose it?
No, Sir, I was not aware of the instruction having been issued; but if the hon. and gallant Member will give me particulars of the cases, I will certainly have them inquired into.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this company is honouring its policies with regard to soldiers and sailors who meet with death, although not bound to do so, and are making gratuitous payment in full to the extent of hundreds of thousands of pounds for which they are not legally liable?
I do not know the amount of allowances they have made, but the company inform me they are making allowances.
TIMBER (IRELAND).
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether, in view of the amount of timber which is being cut down all over Ireland, the Department is taking any steps to secure at least an equivalent amount of planting?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Mid-Armagh on the 12th October in regard to this matter.
SUGAR SUPPLIES.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the fact that the Regulations of the Sugar Commission prevent the Maypole Dairy Company, who are the largest British manufacturers and retailers of margarine, from selling sugar, whilst the manufacturers and retailers of Dutch margarine who sold sugar in 1915 are still allowed to sell sugar, and in this way, as people must have sugar, compel the public to deal with the retailers of the Dutch firm and to pay a higher price for the margarine they buy; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
In order to retain the trade in its usual channels the Sugar Commission has provided that the restricted supplies of sugar now available shall be divided only amongst those traders who dealt in the article in 1915. I am not aware that any Dutch margarine manufacturer sells sugar retail in this country. For the rest, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave yesterday to the hon. Member for Dartford.
Cannot the right hon. Gentleman understand that, as a result of these Regulations, the Dutch firm can, through its retailers here, sell sugar with margarine, and the British firm cannot do so? Surely the right hon. Gentleman does not want to give an extra favour to a foreign firm as against a British firm!
I quite agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman that it would be most undesirable to give an extra favour to a foreign firm as against a British firm.
Then why does the right hon. Gentleman do it?
I am not doing it.
You are.
SYNTHETIC INDIGO.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the firm of Castner Kellners asked to be allowed to tender, as well as Messrs. Levenstein and British Dyes, Limited, for the Ellesmere Port works; whether they subsequently withdrew their application, and can he give the reason; whether they are now making the intermediate phenyl-glycin for Messrs. Levenstein to make the indigo from; and whether they have any present interest in the Ellesmere Port works beyond contracting for the supply of the phenyl-glycin required for the manufacture?
In reply to an invitation to submit evidence of their ability to manufacture synthetic indigo if they desired to tender for the Port Ellesmere works, the Castner Kellner Alkali Company, Limited, informed the Board of Trade that, after full consideration, they had decided not to tender. I have no knowledge as to their reasons for this decision nor as to any arrangements between that company and Messrs. Levinstein for the supply of phenyl-glycin. So far as I am aware, the Castner Kellner Alkali Company, Limited, have no interest in the Port Ellesmere works.
RECRUITING OFFICE, READING (LADY CLERKS).
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether 3d. a week for insurance was deducted from the wages paid to lady clerks, not usually employed persons, who volunteered for service for a few weeks at the Recruiting Office, Town Hall, Reading; and, if so, what benefits they were entitled to for those payments?
Paid clerks who are employed under a contract of service are liable to have the ordinary deductions made from their wages, but persons who are not ordinarily engaged in insurable employment may apply for a certificate of exemption, in which case no deduction would be made from their wages, though the employer's share of the contribution would continue to be payable. I am sending the hon. Member a leaflet with regard to the exemption of women undertaking temporary employment during the War.
Will the hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the question—what benefits they will get?
If persons are ordinarily insured they will get the ordinary benefits under the Act; if they are exempted persons they will get medical and sanatorium benefits.
LIFE OF PARLIAMENT.
asked the President of the Local Government Board, whether he has considered the effect of Section 3 of the Parliament and Local Elections Act, ]916, which enacts that if a register of electors is prepared in September and October, 1916, and a Dissolution of Parliament should take place before any Act for the preparation of a new Parliamentary register has been passed the Parliament so elected shall exist for a period not exceeding two years; and whether this limitation will or will not continue to be operative when new registers are prepared under the Special Register Bill now before Parliament?
As I am advised, Section 3 of the Parliament and Local Elections Act, the limitation on the duration of the life of Parliament there provided for would not affect a Parliament elected on a register prepared under the Special Register Bill.
4TH RESERVE BATTALION DEVON REGIMENT.
(by Private Notice): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the time-expired men of the 4th Reserve Battalion Devon Regiment, recently home from India, now at Hursley Park, Winchester, are to be returned to India without opportunity of visiting their families?
I am informed that there are no time-expired men from India now with the 4th Reserve Battalion Devon Regiment to whom leave has not been granted.
Before they go will they have an opportunity of going home to see their families?
I understand they have all had leave.
ANZAC MOTOR COMPANY.
(by Private Notice): May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade if he still adheres to the statement he made yesterday that the Anzac Motor Company is in no way a British Company?
I have inquired into this matter, and as far as I can ascertain the shareholders and directors are British subjects, but it appears from what information I can obtain at present that the sole business of the company in acting as agents for the sale of American motor cars.
Is it not the case that the company is registered as a British company. Answer "yes," or "no."
Yes, I believe it is.
Then why do you not say so?
As far as I can ascertain the shareholders are British, and the company is registered as a British company. The mistake I was led into—not a very serious one—was due to the fact that I knew the business of the company was the sale of American motor cars.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his statement is absolutely untrue?
That is all the information I have been able to obtain.
Then make further inquiries.
Mail Service (Ireland).
asked the Postmaster-General if he will circulate a statement showing for each day of October the extent to which the night mail to Ireland was late in arriving at Holyhead and Kingstown, and also showing the delay each day between the arrival at and departure from Kingstown and the arrival at and departure from Kingsbridge?
I will have a statement prepared, and will send it to the hon. Member.
asked what time is required between the arrival and departure of the morning mail at Kingstown, and what time, apart from that allowed because of anticipated delays in arrival, is required between the arrival and departure of the same train at Kingsbridge; what the precise work is which is alleged to require this delay at Kingsbridge; and why it cannot be done either at Kingstown or at Kingsbridge before the train arrives?
The transfer of the mails from the packet to the train at Kingstown Pier occupies about seventeen minutes, but additional time is required for the transfer of the passengers' luggage and the railway company's parcels. At Kingsbridge there is a fixed interval of forty-eight minutes. So far as the mail service is concerned, a shorter period would suffice; but the longer period is said to be necessary for railway purposes, and I am not in a position to offer any opinion on this point.
Might I ask whether, on an important matter of this kind, affecting all the South of Ireland, he accepts the statement of the railway company without investigation?
We are very glad to give every facility for inquiry into the matter, but I should like to point out that, so far as the railway companies are concerned, it is a matter which affects the Board of Trade. "We employ the companies, but we do not control them.
NEW MEMBER, SWORN.
Lieutenant Edward Mervyn Archdale, R.N. (retired), for the County of Fermanagh (North Fermanagh Division).
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
May I ask the Prime Minister what will be the business for tomorrow, and whether he can make any statement as to the business of next week; and also when we may hope to have a day definitely appointed for the promised discussion on Man-Power?
With regard to to-morrow, we shall take the Committee stage of the Prevention of Corruption Bill and the Committee stage of the Trading With the Enemy and Export of Prohibited Goods Bill. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to answer to-morrow the remainder of his question.
SPECIAL REGISTER BILL.
Order for Committee read.
The following Notices of Motion appeared on the Order Paper:
Sir EDWIN CORNWALL,—On Order for Committee on Special Register Bill being read, to move,
"That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to provide that all elections shall be held on one day."
Mr. GILBERT,—
"That it be an Instruction to the Committee to provide that the Special Register Bill shall be based on a three months' qualification in place of all existing franchises."
Mr. WILES,—
"That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to provide for the special register being revised at intervals of six months and continued in operation until replaced by a larger measure of electoral reform."
Mr. PERCY ALFRED HARRIS, Mr. GLYN-JONES, and Mr. GEORGE THORNE,—
"That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to base the Special Register Bill on one simple franchise of a short residential qualification in place of all existing franchises."
Mr. CHANCELLOR,—
"That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have the power to base the Special Register Bill on one simple franchise of a three months' qualification and that the special register established shall be used for all elections, Parliamentary and municipal."
Sir WILLIAM PEARCE and Mr. GLANVILLE,—
" That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to amend the Law regarding the hours of polling by making the present Parliamentary polling hours apply to all municipal elections."
Sir GEORGE RADFORD,—
" That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to enfranchise as Parliamentary and local government electors all male British subjects of the age of twenty-one years and upwards and not subject to any legal incapacity; and to abolish all qualifications at present existing for which residence or inhabitancy is required."
Mr. BOWERMAN,—
"That it be an Instruction to the Committee to provide that the special register shall be based on a three months' qualification in place of all existing franchises."
Mr. RONALD MCNEILL and Colonel YATE,—
"That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have the power to insert provisions prohibiting any person who has obtained exemption from combatant service under the Military Service Act on the ground of conscientious objection to military service being included in the new registers."
Colonel CROFT, General HICKMAN, Colonel HOPE, Mr. BENNETT-GOLDNEY, Mr. RAWLINSON, and Commander BELLAIRS,—
"That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have the power to insert provisions for the insertion on the register of soldiers and sailors who are serving or have served since the commencement of the War in His Majesty's Forces, apart from any other qualifications."
There are several Instructions appearing on the Order Paper. The first, standing in the name of the hon. Member for North-East Bethnal Green-(Sir Edwin Cornwall), amends the Ballot Act and cannot be introduced into this Bill. The next Instruction, standing in the name of the hon. Member for West Newington (Mr. Gilbert), to the effect that the special register shall be based on a three months' qualification in place of all existing franchises, is an Amendment of the Representation of the People Act, an Amendment to the general franchise law, and goes beyond the scope of this measure. The Instruction in the name of the hon. Member for South Islington (Mr. Wiles), to provide for the special register being revised at intervals of six months, and continued in operation until replaced by a larger measure of electoral reform, can be carried out by means of an Amendment, and therefore does not required an Instruction. The next Motion, standing in the name of three hon. Members, the first being the hon. Member for the Harborough Division of Leicestershire (Mr. Percy A. Harris), stands on the same footing as that of the hon. Member for West Newington, because it is a general Amendment of the franchise law.
With regard to the Motion in the name of the hon. Member for the Haggerston Division (Mr. Chancellor), it should be divided into two parts. The first is that they have power to base the special register on one simple franchise of a three months' qualification. That is an amendment of the general franchise law, if it applies to others than those persons referred to in the Bill—if only to those in the Bill it is unnecessary. The last part, that the special register established shall be used for all elections, Parliamentary and municipal is, I think, already provided for in the Bill, but if it is not it can be provided for by Amendments. The next Instruction standing in the names of the hon. Member for Limehouse (Sir William Pearce) and the hon. Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Olanville), altering the hours of the polling and making the present Parliamentary polling hours apply to all municipal elections, is an amendment of the Ballot Act. The Motion in the name of the hon. Member for East Islington (Sir George Radford) is also an amendment of the franchise law, and deals with the Representation of the People Act. The same remark applies to the Instruction in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Deptford (Mr. Bower-man). With regard to the Motion standing in the name of the hon. Member for the St. Augustine's Division (Mr. Ronald McNeill) and the hon. and gallant Member for the Melton Division (Colonel Yate), it would have a disfranchising effect, and, so far as it relates to conscientious objectors who are already qualified, it could not be entertained, but in so far as it does not give the relief given by this Bill to naval and military men, it is competent to the hon. Member in Committee to move an Amendment excluding conscientious objectors from the same advantages as are given to those who have served their country. With regard to the last Instruction standing in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Christchurch (Colonel Croft) and other hon. and gallant Members, I have to say that while it is true that on the Second Reading of the Bill I indicated that it was possible that the matter might be raised by way of Instruction, my mind has been further enlightened by the Debate which took place on that occasion, and by a closer study of the Bill than I was able to give on that occasion, and I am of opinion that this Instruction, if accepted by the House, would so widen the scope of the Bill as to make it an amendment of the general franchise law; these matters must be dealt with by a second Bill, and cannot be dealt with in this way. I accordingly now leave the Chair.
Bill considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 1.—(Preparation of New Register of Electors.)
(1) As soon as may be after the passing of this Act steps shall be taken in accordance with the Acts relating to the registration of electors and this Act for the preparation of a new Parliamentary and local government register of electors (in this Act referred to as the new registers).
(2) The new registers shall come into force on the thirty-first day of May, nineteen hundred and seventeen, and for that purpose the Acts relating to the registration of electors shall have effect as if— ( a ) every period of qualification for electors and period or date connected with qualification which, under the Acts relating to the registration of electors, is calculated, computed, or reckoned by reference to the fifteenth day of July or any other day of July, whether inclusive of that day or not, were calculated, computed, or reckoned by reference to the first day of November, nineteen hundred and sixteen; and ( b ) the dates mentioned in the third column of the Schedule to this Act 1753 were (subject to any alteration by Order in Council under this Act) substituted for the dates mentioned in the second column of that Schedule as the dates for the matters mentioned opposite thereto in the first column of that Schedule, and all dates or periods were reckoned with reference to those substituted dates.
(3) His Majesty may by Order in Council make provision for any matters (including the appointment of additional revising barristers) for which it is necessary or expedient to make provision in order to give full effect to the provisions of this Act, and may also— ( a ) if it is found practicable, by curtailing the time for the revision of the lists and the printing of the register, provide for the new registers coming into force at an earlier date than the thirty-first day of May; and ( b ) enable persons who are entitled to be registered in pursuance of the special provisions of this Act to give notice or cause notice to be given to the overseers to insert their names in the overseers' lists; and ( c ) make such adaptations of the provisions of this Act as are necessary in order to make it conform with the registration procedure in Scotland and Ireland respectively.
I thought the best course for me to take would be to indicate at the outset the views I hold on a number of Amendments on the Order Paper, but I think that is hardly necessary now after what Mr. Speaker has said. I might just say that Amendments proposing to deal, for instance, with such questions as manhood suffrage, adult suffrage, women's suffrage, corrupt practices, plural voting, and all elections being held on one day, and similar Amendments are, in my view, outside the scope of the Bill. On the other hand, the proposals to substitute three months for the six and twelve months' periods that would apply as the Bill now stands in the case of the new register, in my view are permissible, and I propose on that subject to call later on the hon. Member for Bethnal Green (Sir E. Cornwall) to move his Amendment. I consider also that those Amendments dealing with the question of imposing the duty on the overseers and other persons to prepare the register without the usual practice of claims being made is also within the scope of the Bill.
Which of my Amendments is the one to which you refer?
The one dealing with the three months' qualification, which proposes to add a new paragraph (a) at the end of line 13.
As you seem to have founded your ruling with regard to several of the Amendments on the proposition which has just been stated from the Chair that the Amendments would interfere with the general law of franchise, and could not be raised, may I ask you whether you do not think that Clause 2 of the Bill interferes with the general law of franchise,. and whether it would not therefore be in order to raise those other questions to which you refer, and with which Mr. Speaker dealt? I intended to put the question to the Chair, only Mr. Speaker left quickly.
The right hon. Gentleman must not ask me to revise a decision given by my superior authority.
On the point of Order. You ruled out a number of Amendments on the same ground, and you stated that you founded yourself on the decision which had just been given. May I ask you, as a point of Order, whether Clause 2, as a matter of fact, does not interfere with the general law of franchise, and whether the other Amendments therefore would not be in order?
I do not think that follows at all. Clause 2 of this Bill gives certain special facilities to persons who, owing to the War, are deprived of their usual opportunities of getting on the register. It is impossible on that to argue the whole scope of the general franchise law.
Would not these same persons be deprived in any case? The point of my right hon. Friend is that Clause 2 alters the law of franchise. As you say, it gives power to these people. Would they not be prevented in any case during the War unless this Bill were passed?
That is an argument on the merits and is not a point of Order.
I have two Amendments at the end of Sub-section (1) of Clause 1 dealing with the period of qualification. Would not they take precedence of the Amendments dealing with the same subject in Sub-section (2)?
I think Sub-section (2) is the proper place to deal with the question. The hon. Member's Amendment, moreover, is of wider scope, and is not quite clear in its terms. In effect it raises the whole question of adult suffrage. With regard to the first Amendment on the Paper—In Clause 1, Sub-section (1), at the beginning, to insert the words "For the purposes of elections to be held during the present War"—standing in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Dickinson), I have some doubt whether it ought not to come on Clause 3, where I observe a rather similar Amendment set down by the Government; but, on the whole, I have come to the conclusion that it might be possible to allow it to be moved here, and that it might be more convenient to the Committee.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), at the beginning, to insert the words "For the purposes of elections to be held during the present War."
The reason which you have given for allowing this Amendment is the reason why I thought it was well to put it down at an early stage. I submit that the Committee has a right to be informed as to what is to be the real character of this Bill. The Committee will remember that on the Second Reading there was a great many valid criticisms made against the Bill, and, if I may say so without offence, it was not a very strong defence that was put up for the Bill. Many Members went away under the impression that the Bill would not be further proceeded with, especially in view of the fact that a conference was about to be called for the purpose of considering the whole question of the franchise. That was undoubtedly felt outside in the country, because the party agents and the municipal authorities, who at that time were very much concerned about the prospect of a great amount of work and a great amount of expense falling upon them in the preparation of the register, were relieved, because they believed this particular proposal would not go forward. If the proposal is going forward, it ought to be in such a shape as will show that it is merely a transitory Act. In support of that, may I just read what was said by the Prime Minister on this particular point on 16th August on the Second Reading. He said: Now I come to the other point raised by my right hon. and learned Friend (Sir J. Simon). I think what he said was very just, namely, that the Parliament elected on a register of this kind ought to be of a purely temporary character, and ought to exist only as long as the term of the War, with perhaps some few additional months, I will not say how many, and which should be regarded as a transitory, passing expedient to meet an emergency, and which, when the War is over, will cease to exist. The Government are quite prepared to accept an Amendment to meet that point. This is not confined to the case of women, but includes also the case of the soldiers. They will be coming home at the conclusion of the War, and they certainly ought to be in the same position as the women, and ought to have the same opportunity, and the register ought to be shortened and treated as purely temporary in regard to both classes as, indeed, to all classes of voters"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th August, 1916, cols. 1908–9, Vol. LXXXV.] If that be the intention of the Government, we ought to know exactly, because it very materially affects the question whether or not this Bill is worth going on with at all. The Bill as it stands is undoubtedly a permanent Bill when once it is passed. As Clause 3 is at present drafted, it will go on automatically from year to year until Parliament otherwise determines. Therefore the register which is to come in force next May will go on till the following November, or whatever time is fixed, when it will be again revised, and will then go on, and so on in a permanent way. Unless something is done in this Bill, it will be the register which will operate in the most momentous election which will take place in this country after the War. I think we ought to protect ourselves against that. I asked the right hon. Gentleman to-day a question which I thought was rather pertinent to this particular point. I asked him what the view of the Government was with regard to the application of Section 3 of the Extension of Parliament Act which we passed just before we adjourned for the Recess? That Section laid it down that no Parliament elected on the existing register should exist for more than two years. The right hon. Gentleman gave me an answer which I believe is quite correct. That enactment has absolutely gone. It is of no effect whatever. If this Bill becomes an Act it will take the place of the older register, and the protection which this House, on the suggestion of the other House, imposed upon ourselves, namely, that a Parliament elected on the existing register should not last more than two years, will disappear altogether.
We are therefore really faced with the fact that the Government are proposing to form a new kind of register, a special register with, as we all know, very many defects, upon which the new Parliament after the War will be elected. We ought to take every precaution before that election takes place that we have a new register based upon a totally new system. I see no reason why we should not have it, in view of the conference presided over by Mr. Speaker now going on. It is all the more important, when we are dealing with this Bill, at the very outset to make it clear that it only applies to elections taking place before the end of the War. Let us have it for by-elections during the War, and, if we are bound to have a General Election before the War terminates, let us submit to an incomplete register, but I do trust that we shall safeguard ourselves against any possibility of having the new Parliament after the War elected upon such an inadequate register as we have at the present moment. I put my Amendment down before the Recess, and at that time, of course, I had not seen the Government Amendment, but I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will not mind my moving it at this point, because I think it is essential that we should understand exactly where we are.
It would perhaps be convenient if I stated as briefly as I can what is the position of the Government in regard to this Bill, the whole issue being raised, as it is, by the Amendment of my right hon. Friend. So far from complaining of that Amendment, I think it is most important that the issue should be raised at the earliest stage of the Bill in order that it may be quite clear as to what is intended by the Government in proposing the Bill. My right hon. Friend, I think, really answered his own argument when he told us at the end of his speech that we ought to have a satisfactory register of a comprehensive character founded upon new lines. He referred to the conference of which he is a distinguished member, and he expressed the hope, which I welcome, that it may be possible for Parliament to deal with the question in this way and in a manner which may be generally satisfactory. Our object in proposing this Bill is only to meet the possible emergency which has been more than once referred to in different Debates in this House, and from different quarters of the House. I believe nobody at this moment contemplates an election taking place, and I believe everybody shares the view of my right hon. Friend that the consequent tremendous disturbance to the whole of our population would be a wholly unsatisfactory thing, but the unforeseen may happen and an election may be rendered necessary by circumstances which are not at the moment apparent. If so, you ought to have a register.
The Committee will remember that in the early days we suspended the registration proceedings, partly on the score of expense and partly on the ground—I think the more important ground of the two— that the demands upon the local officials who have to do the work were so heavy that it was really unfair to ask them to undertake work which, so far as one could then judge, would be performed without any accruing advantage. That cannot go on for ever. It is quite obvious that you must lay the foundations of a register. Some hard things have been said about this particular Bill, and I am bound to say that they have not been confined to other benches. Some of the most severe criticisms have proceeded from these benches. As my right hon. Friend admitted quite frankly at an early stage of these Debates, this is an extraordinarily technical subject of which very few people in the House have complete knowledge. He even confessed that he had not a complete knowledge of the subject himself, and, as everybody is aware, he knows more than most of us. Everybody will admit that it is a subject so technical that it is very difficult to get at the true facts. I submit that it is not the Bill which is so bad: it is the extraordinarily complicated system which we have already in existence, and which we want to utilise in some simple form for a special purpose. You cannot do it.
It is very easy to blame the Government. I should be the last member of the Government to seek to deprive my hon. Friends in this House of that legitimate exercise of their powers of speech, because I am one of those who believe that that is one of the main objects for which Governments exist. But still, it is not the fault of the Government that you have an extraordinarily complicated system of franchise, and a still more complicated system of registration. You have, too, a great war going on, with the consequence that you have a large number of your electors abroad; you have also a large number of electors here at home scattered all over the country in munition and other works; and you have further, as my right hon. and learned Friend has pointed out, the very flower of our people, the best of our manhood, who are fighting for us in different parts of the world, and who have lost their opportunities to come on the franchise because they have been rendering this service to their country. I admit this is a rough and ready attempt; but it is an attempt to bring into existence & register which will be incomplete, not because the Bill is bad, but because conditions make it impossible to have a complete register. It will bring a register into existence that will be incomplete, but I believe it will be the best we can produce. It will enfranchise a large number of those who are fighting for us, and in this respect I believe it meets the general requirements of the country. [An HON. MEMBER: " No, no!"] I am only expressing my own personal opinion. That is my view, and I shall be ready to justify it at the proper time.
With regard to the contention of my right hon. Friend (Mr. Dickinson) that whatever you do you have no right to let this Bill operate longer than is absolutely necessary, that certainly is the intention of the Government, and I have an Amendment in my name to Clause 3 which, as I am advised, is the proper place to introduce it, in the following terms: Provided that no register made in pursuance of this Act shall, unless Parliament otherwise directs, continue in force after the expiration of a period of six months after the termination of the present War. It is quite obvious you must have some elasticity in this matter. You must have a register in case an election is forced at a time when there is no new register. You must, therefore, have this register for a period of time. But this Amendment, I think, is quite clear and explicit as to our intentions. Of course, I shall be prepared, on behalf of the Government, to consider any criticisms that may be made upon it when the time comes, but in the meantime I can give to my right hon. Friend the most explicit assurance that there is no intention on the part of the Government to, as it were, "jump the claim," and we have no desire to make this register the permanent law of the land or to secure it for an election. What we want to provide is a register which, as a temporary measure, will meet the requirements of the country, and, at the same time, we trust that out of the labours of the conference, to which reference has been made, will come suggestions which will enable us to place the whole question on a much more satisfactory and, as we hope, a permanent footing.
I think that although the Debate has not been germane to this particular Amendment, it is convenient that at an early stage we should review the position as we now find it in regard to this Bill. A great deal of change has taken place since the Bill was last before the House. In the first place I agreed, as far as I was concerned, to the Second Reading of the Bill on the ruling of Mr. Speaker that we could raise by Instruction the question of whether soldiers and sailors as such with a qualification of service can be brought into this Bill. Mr. Speaker, no doubt on further consideration, has ruled now that his former ruling does not hold good. That alters the whole situation, and the Bill has little if any interest for anyone under these conditions. But something more has happened since the matter was before the House. Hon. Members will recollect— and really it is worth recalling—that the Government made a proposal to refer the questions of registration and franchise to a Committee of the House. But the House would not have it, and then the Government did it off their own bat, overruling the view of the House. The matter is now before a Select Committee appointed by the Government under the presidency of Mr. Speaker.
Selected by Mr. Speaker.
I am not so sure. I should have thought that the Government had a very considerable voice in the matter, looking at the names of the members. But there the matter stands. You have really referred the whole constitution of this country to a Committee, not appointed by this House at all, whoever else appointed it, and I think a more extraordinary proceeding has seldom taken place. If anybody likes to read the history of the great Reform Bills and the interest that they evoked in the country and the long discussions that took place upon them, I am inclined to think, with all respect for this Committee, that very little attention will be paid to its Report when we get it. The idea of referring to a Committee of this kind the question of adult suffrage and telling us how we are to vote upon it, the idea of referring to them the question of women's suffrage and telling us how we are to vote upon that, and the idea of referring to them the question of suffrage for soldiers and sailors, is, to my mind, one of the most absurd things ever attempted. But there it is. The Committee is there, and the ruling now is that all these questions do not arise under the Bill. For my own part, in these circumstances, if you cannot do anything for the soldiers and sailors fighting at the front, I really hardly understand why we should go on with the Bill. Why have the Government framed the title of their Bill in such a way that we are not allowed to raise these questions? It is because the Government are not agreed on the point whether soldiers and sailors ought to have a vote, and for this reason alone this makeshift measure is put forward.
I should like to ask this question. Why were we told when the matter was before the House that there would be a supplementary Bill to alter the Ballot Act so as to enable soldiers and sailors serving this country abroad to record their votes? There was a suggestion of sympathetic consideration, though not a promise, in regard to soldiers and sailors serving abroad being enabled to record their votes. When are we going to have that Bill? Are we ever going to have it? That is the situation at the present moment so far as I am concerned. The right hon. Gentleman said, quite truly, that with regard to the technicalities of this Bill I know very little about them. I care very little about them. It is the great principle that this House cares about—the great principle we want to establish, a principle which is practically excluded from the Bill. So far as I am concerned, I would be perfectly content that the securing a method of working the registration should be entrusted to a Committee of able and experienced election agents on both sides to work the plan out between them. Such a proposal, I think, would be worth support in this House.
The question of how long this blessed Bill is to remain, if it becomes an Act of Parliament, is the immediate subject of the Amendment. I suppose if we are to go on with the Bill we must look upon it as being some improvement on the present register. But the present register is so old now that we really have no authority at all to represent the country. We nominally represent, we legally represent it, but whether we really represent it I think is open to a great deal of doubt. No doubt we all fancy ourselves very much as representatives of the people for a considerable number of years, and we go on as a matter of convenience prolonging our own representations in our own way as long as the War lasts. Assuming the Bill is of any value at all, if and when it is passed, let me point out to my right hon. Friend that until you get another Bill you must leave this Bill as it is. What, then, is the good of saying that the Bill is only to last during the War, or six months after the War. Let us suppose that it is carried with the Government Amendment. Suppose it happens after the War is over there is an election. On what register will it take place? Are you going to have it on the register of 1913?
Made up in the summer of 1914.
Are you going to have it on that register? Is that the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment? Are you going to trust to the chance of there being a new register within six months after the War? If there is, of course you get rid of this Bill. But if there is not, you have nothing but this Bill. Therefore, what is the use of an Amendment limiting the time to the duration of the War? It simply leaves you where you were, and if there is an election when the War is over —in five years, or in whatever time it may be—you will have an election on the old register of 1913. I suggest the proper way is to pass the Bill without any limitation, and when Parliament has got the Report of the Committee, presided over by Mr. Speaker—if the Government are able to agree for once—then they can bring in this great change in the constitution and settle all questions regarding the franchise for the future. Then, and then alone, will be the time at which they can deal with this Bill, and substitute a fuller one for the one now before the House.
I agree with nearly all the arguments in the speech made by the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir E. Carson), with the exception of the sentence with which he concluded. As I understand his argument, it is that this is a totally inadequate Bill. He feels as much contempt for it as he felt when the Debate on the Second Reading was proceeding—indeed, his feeling is aggravated and accentuated as the result of the ruling of Mr. Speaker to-day. During the Second Reading Debate the right hon. Gentleman imagined that it would be possible, by Instruction to the Committee, to make this a Bill enfranchising soldiers and sailors quâ soldiers and sailors. This afternoon we gathered that that is impossible—in other words, that under this Bill it will only be possible to enfranchise a certain number of soldiers and sailors, and that on a highly artificial basis. In spite of this new information, the right hon. and learned Gentleman advises the Government and the Committee to go on with the Bill. I should have thought that his reasoning was so conclusive as to drive him to an entirely different result and that he would have insisted here and now that the Government should withdraw this Bill and introduce another Bill with its Title so drawn that it would be impossible for the Committee itself, if the Government did not do so, to enfranchise all soldiers and sailors who are now fighting for us. That is the only conclusion to which we can come. The right hon. Gentleman has made some reference to the Conference which is at present sitting. As I understood what he said, he did not give a completely accurate account of the history of these proceedings. My recollection of what occurred is that in the summer the Government suggested to this House the appointment of a Select Committee to consider the narrow question of setting up a register for soldiers and sailors. The House, very mistakenly I believe, decided to have nothing to do with that proposal, very largely on account of the contemptuous speech made by the Home Secretary on that occasion. I regret that decision, because I believe that a Committee of this House would have been the best body to decide the question how to enfranchise soldiers and sailors. I believe that if that proposal had been adopted we should now have been in a fair way to settle the question and should actually have a register being prepared for the purpose of giving the vote to soldiers and sailors. That decision, however, was taken. The Government then produced this wholly inadequate Bill For reasons which it is very difficult to understand, an announcement was made on a totally irrelevant subject during the course of that Debate by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board, who said that the Government suggested that a Conference should be held of men representing all points of view on the suffrage question to see whether a solution could not be found of the problem, not of enfranchising soldiers and sailors, but the whole problem of constitutional reform in regard to the suffrage. That is an entirely different subject. It does not seem to me that the labours of that Conference now sitting have any relevance to the question we are considering this afternoon. The question we have to consider this afternoon is simply and solely the narrow question whether this Bill aotually does what it purports to do—that is, give the franchise to the fighting men. Obviously, in its present terms, it does not. In the light of the ruling of Mr. Speaker, it is not capable of doing it. The Committee is incapable of so amending the Bill as to enable the suffrage to be granted to the fighting men. In these circumstances, is it worth our while going on? Surely the obvious course to take is to call upon the Government to withdraw the Bill and to introduce another Bill so drawn and with its Title sufficiently wide as to enable us to give the fighting men the vote, irrespective of whether they had any qualifications before or were in the course of obtaining a qualification. That is the logical course which I hope the Committee will adopt.
I think I must intervene here. I allowed this Amendment, a little out of place, for the convenience of the Committee, in the first instance in order to draw a statement from the Government as to the Amendment they had put down to Clause 3 dealing with the period of the duration of the Bill. We really must not depart from that into a general review of the Bill. May we not dispose of this Amendment now or confine the discussion directly to the period for which the Bill shall operate?
On a point of Order. May I remind you, Sir, that you allowed the general discussion, as I think, quite properly, to be introduced by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board, and my right hon. and learned Friend (Sir E. Carson), and the ' hon. Member who has just sat down (Mr. Pringle) have also made some general remarks. May I, in these circumstances, ask you whether the Committee generally has not a right to continue, at any rate, for a moderate time, that general discussion, and whether it will not tend, on the whole, to the solution of this difficult question if we are allowed some facility for a general Debate such as was indicated by the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill?
On a point of Order. I submit to you, Sir, that I did not initiate a general discussion in the statement I made to the Committee. I sought to justify the attitude of the Government in regard to this Bill with respect to the Amendment which had been moved as to the duration of the Bill. I did not raise the general question then, as I thought it would be raised upon subsequent Amendment.
Before you rule upon the point, Sir, may I say that we all thought the object of the Bill was to enfranchise the soldiers and sailors. We find to-day that that subject is ruled out. We hardly know what the Bill is for. I would appeal to you as to whether it is not possible to let us have some general discussion in order to get the matter fairly before us.
I beg to move "That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again."
I make this Motion in order to regularise the discussion, and to obtain a decision from the Committee as to whether it desires to go on with the Bill.
I think the Committee might proceed with this Amendment. It certainly is not my intention to rule out other hon. Members from following anything that Has been said from the Government Bench. As often happens, this comes of opening the door too wide. I blame myself for the opening, but I am not going to visit that upon the Committee.
May I say, in support -of the Motion submitted by the hon. Member (Mr. Pringle), that this sort of impasse has been reached on many previous occasions and has been got out of by allowing the Committee to report Progress. The truth of the matter is that we came down here to-day prepared to discuss this Bill under an entirely erroneous impression. It was Only at the eleventh hour, by a ruling of Mr. Speaker, that the whole aspect of the Bill was changed in our opinion. Would it not be to the advantage of the Government, as well as that of the Committee, if the hon. Member were allowed to move to report Progress, so that difficulties could be cleared up, and then, when a decision is arrived at, we could revert to the Amendment?
May I make a suggestion to the Government? Would the Government tell us now, having regard to the ruling of Mr. Speaker to-day—which is, of course, directly contrary to the ruling he gave before and is made upon further consideration—whether they intend to bring in a Bill to give the vote to soldiers and sailors?
You mean to enable them to vote?
No, no! To enfranchise soldiers and sailors—the same matter that we were told by Mr. Speaker could be discussed and brought into this Bill if the Committee thought it desirable. If we could have an assurance that the Government would bring in such a Bill, we might then proceed with this Bill as being merely the registration part of a measure to be enacted for the franchise. If that is not done by the Government, we stand in an absolutely different position, as regards the whole merits of this question, from that in which we stood when the House rose for the Recess, and I certainly would agree, if it were moved, with the Motion to report Progress.
Will you, Sir, accept my Motion to report Progress?
In the circumstances, I think I ought to do so. It is for the Committee to say whether it is prepared to go on with the consideration of the Bill.
In the speech I have already made on the Amendment before the Committee, I did, in a general way, state the reasons why I wished to report Progress. When we gave a Second Beading to this Bill, we understood that it was a Bill under which the fighting men could be enfranchised. We have had a ruling this afternoon which proves that this is a Bill under which that cannot be done. In these circumstances, it is obviously wasting the time of the Committee to discuss the attempted Amendment here, and I therefore make my Motion:
Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
There is just one point I should like to mention with regard to the proposal which has been made by my right hon. and learned Friend (Sir E. Carson). It is generally admitted that we are in quite a different position from that in which we expected to be when we came down to the House this afternoon. So far as my recollection serves me, I think I am right in saying—I have not had an opportunity of looking it up—that upon one occasion the Prime Minister stated that the Bill would be drawn in such a way as to enable an Amendment or Instruction to be introduced so as to enfranchise soldiers and sailors, as it was very well known that there was a large body in the House and in the country more anxious about that point than any other change in the law. I feel certain that the Prime Minister and the Government have done their best to carry out that intention of the Prime Minister, because not only the Government, but Mr. Speaker himself, held the view, until recently, that the Bill was so drawn that we could have made such a proposal either by Instruction or Amendment. But owing, I suppose, to some mistake on the part of the draftsman, not only the Committee, but the Government themselves, are put in a false position. In these circumstances, seeing that we have had the promise made, and the Government, presumably, are therefore just as anxious as anybody else that such an Amendment should be debated, I think that adds very strongly to the grounds upon which my right hon. and learned Friend appealed to the Government to pledge themselves now —seeing that Mr. Speaker says that it cannot be done on this Bill—to bring in as soon as possible another Bill to enable that to be carried out.
I have come to the conclusion that the Government, in their own interest, can take no other course than to accept the Motion to report Progress. The position appears to be this, that if we proceed in the present circumstances we are going to fashion a measure—no doubt a very perfect one—with the knowledge of the time, which, in all probability will never be brought into effect at all. Then we have the other alternative that the Government are going to bring in a Bill which, I understand
5.0 P.M.
from the discussion, will allow soldiers and sailors to be brought within its provisions, and that if they do not undertake to do that they will bring in a Bill of the same character which will enable the House of Commons to exercise its will in regard to-that matter. In addition, we have a Conference sitting at the present time, nominated by Mr. Speaker, and in the course of time they will come to their conclusions-as to the lines upon which the House of Commons ought to proceed. In view of these possibilities, there ought to be time for the Committee to consider exactly where it stands, and more particularly time for the Government to make up their mind as to the general course of procedure they intend to adopt. The President of the Local Government Board is always a very fair-minded man, and I am sure he will agree that the House is placed rather at a disadvantage this afternoon, assembling, as it did, in the expectation that it would be possible to introduce the enfranchisement of soldiers and sailors, as we were led to believe. Therefore the whole situation from the House of Commons point of view is changed, and I think he himself will agree that the Government, in view of the altered condition of things, ought really to have an opportunity of considering what course they intend to ask the House to adopt. If they do not accept the Motion it seems to me that it will be to a large extent wasting the time of the House, whereas if they take time to review the new situation the possibilities are that something may emerge not only for the advantage of the Government but also for the further progress of the general idea we have in view. I, therefore, hope the Government will not go in the face of the House of Commons, but will accept the proposal of my hon. Friend.
I desire to add one other consideration in support of the Motion. If it be right—and I believe it to be the general opinion of the House of Commons that it is right—to make special provision to secure that the votes of those who are serving us in the field should be available, plainly that must be based on the ground that they are fighting, and not that they have in their past history happened to-satisfy some highly technical tests and conditions. That really, it seems to me, is the substance of the matter, and the moment, therefore, a Bill is brought forward which says it is only if they can satisfy these technical tests that they are going to be given the franchise, and that other people who are doing exactly the same kind of work cannot get those privileges because they do not satisfy those technical tests, the real substance which we were endeavouring to secure passes out of sight. I take the view that while there ought to be such facilities offered they ought not, by any means, to be limited to those who are serving the country in the field. I am quite unable to see why war workers should be limited to those who are risking their lives or working behind the line, whether it be in the Army or in the corresponding service of the Fleet. But be that as it may, whatever the right test may be, it cannot be that the right test is a purely technical test which distinguishes between two sets of people who on all grounds of substance stand in the same position.
I should like to add my voice to those who have been urging this course upon the Government. As one who helped to move the Instruction to-day, it seems to me that the whole position has been changed. When this question was considered before I was in another place, and I only read the reports in the newspapers, but I believe the principal reason then why the Prime Minister was unable to proceed with this question was because, on the advice of his military advisers, he had been informed that there were difficulties. But this Bill gets rid of that. Sere we have the Government's own Bill proving that that ic no longer the contention, as they propose to enfranchise certain soldiers at present, so that the whole question from that point of view is altered, and I think the feeling of every party in the House, if we are making any alteration in the register at present and we do not include the fighting men, is unanimous that that is a thing which the whole country disapproves. Therefore, I hope the Government will not force us to divide upon this question, but will reconsider the whole matter in the light of these changed conditions, and will give some facility at an early date for those of all parties who desire to see the enfranchisement of the fighting men placed in the Bill, and desire to get rid of this difficulty which exists in the present measure.
I, too, should like to urge the Government to accept this "Motion, and I should like to put another 'reason to the President of the Local Gov- ernment Board which I think will appeal to him. This Bill is going to put additonal work on local authorties, who are already doing special work for the Local Government Board in connection with the tribunals. That may be justified in order to carry out the provisions of the Bill that the House of Commons wants. But to create all this machinery now for a Bill which the right hon. Gentleman has been told from all quarters of the House no one wants in its present shape is, I think, a great mistake. May I indicate how the matter appears to me. What is the origin of the Bill? First of all, the fear, not the desire, less there should be a General Election during the War, and soldiers and sailors and others not be able to vote. This Bill, as it stands, does not touch this difficulty. Ostensibly it is only a Bill to deal with an election arising during the War. If that be so, we are now clearly showing that we cannot by means of this Bill carry out the only object for which such a Bill was justified. I believe the borough councils and the local authorities throughout the country, who are already not only carrying on their own work with a shortened staff, but are carrying on the additional work of the local tribunals, would even be prepared to face all this tremendous addition to their work which would be cast upon them by preparing this register if it was to secure that soldiers and sailors might vote, but if it is not going to do that I hope the President of the Local Government Board will not be a party to enforcing this upon them for the purposes of this Bill. Is it not clear that since the Second Beading the whole position has been changed by the fact that we have now got a Committee which has the extraordinary advantage of having as its chairman the Speaker of this House, and whose object is to provide a way for dealing with this very evil, and with the other evils which cannot be touched in this Bill, and I should hope the right hon. Gentleman would be willing to say that that Committee might be given a few weeks in order to see whether they cannot come with some proposal which can be embodied in a Government Bill, and to scrap this Bill, which nobody wants and which everybody admits will not be effective for its purpose, and will be extremely costly. For these reasons I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not make the House take up its time now by going through all these Amendments, As he goes through them he will find that these points have to be emphasised on every one of them. They all show the same weakness.
I desire to repeat the question I put to my right hon. Friend as to whether, having regard to the ruling of Mr. Speaker to-day, the Government are prepared to put us in the same position we were in before by bringing in a Bill on which we can raise the question whether soldiers and sailors should have votes by reason of their service—to put us in the same position as we were in until the ruling of Mr. Speaker, and in exactly the same position as we thought we were in when we assembled here to-day. If my right hon. Friend is not prepared at the moment to answer that question—and it is not unreasonable that he should not be prepared, as it is a matter which requires consideration—the only way out of the difficulty is to report Progress, and, unless my right hon. Friend can give us an assurance that we shall be in the same position as we were in before by the introduction of such a measure, I shall certainly vote in favour of the Motion.
I sincerely trust that the President of the Local Government Board will listen to what is the evident desire of the House, and accept the Motion. I can assure him that those who have looked very fully into the composition of this Bill are not quite so enamoured of it as he is himself, even from the point of view of facilitating an easy and speedy way of registration. I believe the real value of the Bill was better expressed on the Second Reading by the Prime Minister than it was by the President of the Local Government Board. We are asking how far we are to have the power of enfranchising soldiers and sailors who are not at present on the register. This cannot be done by the ruling of Mr. Speaker on this Bill; but do not forget that in Clause 2 you are already widening the scope with regard to a section of the soldiers and also the munition workers. Having broken down the barriers so far as the existing law is concerned, you are going without any qualification to place on the register that you are proposing to bring into existence any soldiers or sailors or munition workers who may be on the existing register of 1914. I want to emphasise the point put by my hon. Friend (Mr. Glyn-Jones) as to the work you are throwing on the local authorities with their depleted staffs, in addition to ail the extra work which they are doing in a noble and heroic manner. I have discussed this point with some clerks of large urban councils and other authorities, and they simply shudder at the idea of the work you are going to throw on them under this Bill, with an already depleted staff and with the incompetent people with whom they will have to fill their staff up, not because they have not ability, but because they have not the experience of years which is necessary to do this work. I, therefore, sincerely trust that the Government will accept this Motion, and then consider whether they cannot bring in a Bill of a wide and comprehensive character. The authorities of the Local Government Board, if they give their minds to it, can also simplify to a material extent the carrying out of registration other than on the lines of this Bill.
I hope the Government will not hesitate to accept the Motion. I came here this afternoon fully intending to support the proposal that our soldiers and sailors should be given votes by virtue of their service abroad, and that would have been possible had the Speaker given a different ruling. The fact that Mr. Speaker has given the ruling that he has changes the whole situation, and almost every Member who has spoken has recognised the position we are now faced with as fundamentally different from what it was at the time of the Second Reading. I am most anxious to see the franchise extended in such a way as my right hon. Friend (Sir E. Carson) has indicated, and I trust, therefore, that the Government will give us an opportunity of registering our conviction in that respect by accepting the Motion and undertaking to bring in a Bill which will give effect to our wishes.
I am sorry that, through the pressure of other duties, I have not been able to be present during this discussion. I understand that a difficulty has arisen upon the ruling that the question of what is called the soldiers' vote cannot be raised under this Clause or under any Clause of the Bill in Committee. I wish to make it clear if I can—. and I am only repeating what was said by my Noble Friend (Lord Lansdowne) in another place a few weeks ago—that so far as the Government are concerned, they are most anxious to devise a means, if means can. be found, to enable not only soldiers and sailors, but munition workers, who are equally important, to take a part, and an active part—active in the sense of recording their votes—in any election which has to take place during the abnormal conditions which the War has produced. I quite agree with those who think that an election on a register from which these men who are serving their country in the different theatres of war, and from which munition workers, who have left their homes and are serving us equally effectively, are excluded—any election in which they were excluded from voting would not be, and could not be, regarded as a fair reflection of the opinion of the country. It is said, and said with a good deal of truth, that the only people who would be allowed to record their votes under those circumstances are the people who are not taking an active part in the prosecution of the War. I am quite satisfied that the country would not regard, and the world would not regard, an election held upon a register like that as an accurate or adequate reflection of the opinions of the British people as a whole.
It is a practical problem, and a problem which the Government are most anxious to solve, that all soldiers and sailors and munition workers who would be qualified, if they were not doing what they are doing, should have the opportunity in one way or another of recording their votes. That is our intention, but it has been ruled outside the scope of this Bill. Therefore no Amendment of this Bill could bring about that result. On the last occasion, in reply to my right hon. Friend (Sir E. Carson) when we were discussing this matter, and when he called attention to certain conditions under which munition workers and others, returned soldiers and so on, would be able to record their votes, I promised that by an amendment of the Ballot Act we would make provision for those cases. We are not only in that mind, but we are anxious that in that Bill, which we propose to introduce, also to make provision which will enable all our soldiers, sailors, and munition workers, who are qualified, to record their votes. Now I understand—I do not know whether I am accurate—that my right hon. Friend (Sir E. Carson) wishes, to raise a rather larger point, namely, the point that all soldiers—[HON. MEMBERS: " Hear, hear!"] —serving at the front, or serving any- where in the various theatres of the War, should be enfranchised. Am I right in that?
It is not easy to say in a word. If the right hon. Gentleman likes, I will speak now. The way the matter stands is that when it was before the House on the Second Reading of this Bill, on my application as to whether this question not merely for the exercising of the franchise, but of the enfranchisement of all soldiers and sailors—which, of course, is quite a different subject—could be raised, Mr. Speaker ruled that that could be raised as an Instruction on this Bill. Mr. Speaker ruled that last August. I myself previous to that had put a question to the Prime Minister, asking whether the title of the Bill would be such as would enable that to be done. I understood him to say that it would. That was subject to the ruling of Mr. Speaker.
It was not for me to decide.
I understand that was the intention of the Government.
Certainly.
By the ruling to-day, that opportunity is taken away. My suggestion before the Prime Minister came in was that, to put us in the same position, he ought to bring in a Bill, or propose a Clause or Clauses in the Bill that he intends to introduce, upon which we could raise and discuss that question. Then this would be merely the Registration Bill for people who were so enfranchised. The Prime Minister puts a direct question to me as to whether I wish to raise that question. I would point out that a Motion is down in the name of a number of my Friends, among whom is the hon. and gallant Member for Christ-church (Colonel Croft). I know that there is on this side of the House a very large number of Members, and I imagine on the other side also—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear"]—who wish to have this question decided. All we are making is really a very moderate demand, namely, that we shall be put in the same position as we would have been if Mr. Speaker's ruling to-day had been the same as it was in August last.
I am much obliged to my right hon. Friend, and I assure him that we are most anxious to get a decision of the House on that point. The question is, what is the best way of doing it? There are two ways of doing it, quite apart from this particular Bill. I should be quite ready to do it on a Motion raising the direct issue. That is one way. Another way of doing it would be that the Bill we are pledged to introduce, which is to amend the Ballot Act, should be so framed that the question as to the qualification of persons serving the Crown in the Army, the Navy, or otherwise, should be within the scope and title of that Bill. In one way or the other the issue might be brought directly to a decision. I do not know which of these suggestions commends itself more to my right hon. and learned Friend, but I hope one or other of them will commend itself to him, and I am quite prepared to adopt it. I will leave that to my right hon. Friend and those who advise him.
Would not a Bill for the express purpose be more convenient? So many technicalities may arise with regard to soldiers and sailors as such. Those were the words used in the August discussion. Would it not be simpler to have a Bill for the express purpose?
I do not care which way it is done. I would leave that rather to be suggested by my right hon. Friend and those who advise him. In one way or the other the issue ought to be raised and decided by the House of Commons. There we are quite agreed. Of course, there may be differences in regard to the universal qualification of soldiers and sailors, but with regard to the question whether or not soldiers, sailors, and munition workers who would be qualified to vote if they were not doing what they are doing should be allowed to vote there is no difference of opinion whatever.
Does that apply to those serving in France as well?
Yes, anywhere. If my right hon. Friend, after consultation, or at once, would suggest to us which of these courses he thinks the more desirable, the Government are quite prepared to fall in with his suggestion. In the meantime, there does not seem any reason why we should not go on with this Bill. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] This is a question of machinery.
For my own part I would prefer a Bill. That really is proper business. May I say as regards going on with this Bill meanwhile that I think that is almost impossible. There is an attempt in this Bill to set up particular qualifications for soldiers and sailors, and what are called war workers. That is in Clause 2. I think one of the great advantages of enfranchising soldiers and sailors would be that you would not want this qualification in Clause 2 at all. I do not see how we can discuss this Clause of the Bill— and I do not know how far the other Clauses may relate to that also—until we know whether, without this qualification at all, they are to be enfranchised. Therefore, I think, until we see the other Bill, there is very little use going on with this Bill.
My right hon. Friend does not deal with the case of munition workers.
They are all mixed up together. The Prime Minister misunderstood me. I know that they stand on quite a different footing. I have always said so myself, but you cannot go on with Clause 2 without eliminating all about soldiers and sailors, and you want to know how they stand before you can go further.
I did not catch quite clearly what the Prime Minister said, but I did not understand him to concede that war workers stand in a different position from soldiers and sailors in this matter, because that would be quite contrary to what I understood the Prime Minister to say on the Second Beading of this Bill.
I agree.
Then they stand, in his view, in the same position. As they stand in the same position it is surely quite plain that we cannot go on with a Bill which proposes to make a specal register of people until we have some idea who the people are and how you define them. It seems to me quite impossible that we should say at what date the register is to be made up and at what date it is to begin to be operative when we do not know what are the conditions which are to be satisfied and who are the people to be put on the register. Therefore it seems to me that the Motion must be accepted.
I would like to appeal to the Prime Minister, who has not been here all the time, to realise the great difficulties in which we are placed if we attempt to proceed with this Bill. Take as an illustration the Amendment proposed by my right lion. Friend the Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Dickinson). Naturally I would like to support that Amendment, and especially seeing that an Amendment was put down this morning by the Government, practically accepting this principle. We are put in an extraordinary difficulty. It is generally understood that there is not to be an election during the War. The Amendment provides that at the close of the War this register ceases to be of any use or within six months after the War. The register which we are going to prepare, if we proceed with this Bill, goes out of existence at the very moment when it is possible it may be wanted. That is one of the difficulties with which we are faced. The whole position has changed since this Bill was drawn. This is a Special Register Bill, which was prepared before any Committee was set up to consider this subject. Since then a Committee has been set up, and I would suggest that the course might be taken of asking that Committee to make some recommendation with regard to this matter. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] Why not? They might be able to grapple with the subject. At any rate, if the Government are not able to grapple with it without being advised by somebody, there is the Committee whose advice they can get. On every question, if we go on this afternoon, the same difficulty exists. The hon. Member who moved this Motion said that this was a Bill to enfranchise soldiers. I do not find that in the Bill at all. There is a sort of side attempt in Clause 2 to enable soldiers who have qualified before to exercise the vote, but it does not do anything for the soldier as such nor for the war worker. Then the Prime Minister asked, a moment ago, about the position of the war worker. This is the position with regard to Clause 2: Though he is given the qualification he is not given the power to vote. Nothing is done to enable the soldier in France or the war worker at Gretna who may happen to live in my Constituency to Tote. It is a perfect farce to try to put that into a Franchise Bill without dealing -with the greater subject. Therefore I appeal to my right hon. Friend, in view of the unanimous opinion of everybody who has spoken, to let us have a little further time for consideration.
I cannot accept the statement that this does not effect a very large enfranchisement of soldiers and sailors and war workers generally.
The Speaker's ruling.
No new franchise.
I express my opinion for whatever it is worth—I am sorry that it does not agree with that ot my right hon. Friend—that this Bill does in fact effect a very large enfranchisement of those in whom we are particularly interested, because they are doing our war work in the field or in the factory. Therefore I cannot for a moment agree that the Bill as it stands would not have that effect. But in view of all that has been said and the importance of the perhaps rather unexpected ruling which we have had from the Chair, I agree that it is desirable that we should bring this question of qualification to a distinct issue, and I shall be quite prepared to accept the Motion which has been made to report Progress with a view of devising, as I hope, in consultation with those opposite, the best and most effective means of bringing the exact point to an issue before we proceed with the mechanical part of the work which is now before the House.
Before the House ceases to consider this question, may I ask that the question may be kept free from all confusing and conflicting issues? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow just now introduced one of those confusing and conflicting issues when he asked, in his usual manner, whether this question would not include wide sections of the public. I believe that the idea of this House is that it desires to see every man who has been on active service and who has risked his life for his country empowered to vote owing to the fact that he has been fighting for the country and saved it from disaster. When the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow put in his aside he knew perfectly well that he was immediately raising all those contentious questions which it is hoped to settle elsewhere —questions of universal suffrage, women's suffrage, and other questions. I believe that the spirit of this House is to give as a gift to the fighting men of the British Empire this full right of citizenship, because these men have saved this British Empire at this time. I believe that I am speaking on behalf of ninety-nine Members out of every hundred. [Hon. MEM- BERS: "No!"] I could not hope to convert the hon. Member opposite (Mr. D. Mason) to the view that—
This is leading up to a Debate on a Bill which is not before the House. The Motion before the Chair is to report Progress.
I would not like to infringe your ruling in any direction, but it occurred to me, as the Prime Minister had come in late and had not heard all the arguments, that after the appeal of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow, which is an impossible appeal, because if you are going to enfranchise— [Hoy. MEMBERS: "Order, order! "] The House will pardon me for giving my reasons, but it is perfectly obvious that that would raise tremendous issues and there would be no chance of settlement. I am expressing my opinion when I say that ninety-nine Members out of a hundred would desire that the fighting* men should be included in the franchise.
I should like to express the hope that the result of this Motion to report Progress will not be to put back for a long time the provision of a new register. As I have had to deal quite recently with the register, I am aware that there is a very strong feeling in the country as to the present position of the register and the number of men who ought to be on and are now off. The register of 1914 has been mentioned, but the existing register is the one for 1913, because though the one for 1914 was prepared, it was never passed by the revising barrister. Therefore I would impress on the President of the Local Government Board and on the Government that they do not let the result of this Motion, if it is carried, have the effect of there being no new register prepared because all these other questions are brought forward.
I would ask the Prime Minister one question. When the Motion to report Progress was about to be accepted, he intimated to the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite that he would consult him and confer with him, and as far as might be arranged with him what should be the terms of the Motion to be brought forward. I would ask him if he would not also take the trouble to ascertain the views of some others?
rose, and was understood to indicate assent.
As we understand the matter, it was not simply as to the terms of the Motion that the Prime Minister was to consult the right hon. and learned Gentleman; it was as to the terms of the general policy; and I think it is only fair to say that in the view of a large number of us who have taken this course this afternoon, who are anxious that the question of the soldiers' and sailors' vote should be settled in a single Bill, if you are going to proceed by way of Clause 2, and then by a second Bill, you will have double machinery for achieving a single object, and you will be casting a heavy burden on the local authorities. Obviously, if you have a single Bill for the purpose of enfranchising soldiers and sailors, qua soldiers and sailors, you will get rid of the difficulties of registration machinery.
Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.
Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Tuesday next.
CONSTABULARY AND POLICE, IRELAND [MONEY].
Resolution reported,
" That it is expedient to authorise the further provision out of moneys provided by Parliament for the pay of members of the Royal Irish Constabulary and Dublin Metropolitan Police and for pensions, allowances, and gratuities to members of those forces, their widows, and children."
Motion made, and Question proposed, " That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
I would like to ask the Chief Secretary whether this Bill is not framed to cover the case of the officer of the Dublin Metropolitan Police and the Royal Irish Constabulary? There has been a great deal of correspondence with my colleagues on the subject, and I have in my hand a rough and ready calculation dealing with the pay of the officers of the Royal Irish Constabulary. I leave aside for the moment the Dublin Metropolitan Police force with the conditions of service with which I am not very familiar. I would, like the Chief Secretary to give some indication of what is being done for the officers of the Royal Irish Constabulary. The right hon. Gentleman will bear in mind that the reasons which have actuated the Government in raising the pay of the men of the Royal Irish Constabulary at present apply with almost double force to some of the officers. In 1882 the present rate of pay of the officers was fixed. Since then the rank and file have had their salaries and allowances revised on several occasions, but on none of those occasions were the merits of the officers considered. I hope that the Chief Secretary now will look sympathetically into their case and see that a somewhat adequate increase is given to the officers of this force.
One of the reasons which actuated the Government in attending to the pay of the Royal Irish Constabulary, at present particularly, is the extra cost of living in various localities. That equally applies to the officers. Another reason is that the force have had a very strenuous time to go through, and everybody sympathises with the loyal way in which the whole force has backed up the Government during the past disturbed time. I heard the other day someone say, with justice, that the police force throughout the length and breadth of Ireland have behaved in the most magnificent manner during most of the trying times through which the country has recently passed. That has been always their reputation. But that esprit de corps, that fine feeling, has been undoubtedly engendered by the extraordinary ability of those who have been officers in the force, and I think it would ill-become the Government, when dealing once more with the pay of the rank and file who have received an increase within the memory of everyone in the House, and quite recently, in the past few years—to neglect to pay some attention to those officers who have been maintained at exactly the same rate of pay since 1882. The Treasury Remembrancer drew up a minority report, which was adopted, and the officers were left in the same hopeless financial condition as before. An increase of £10 was granted to third-class inspectors and maximum pay was given to the first-class officers, after nine years' service, instead of twelve years. I do not intend to make a prolonged speech at this time. Some of my Friends who had intended to support me are not here, this Motion having come on unexpectedly. We will have an opportunity of discussing these matters when the Bill is before the House, but I thought it was only fair and courteous to the Chief Secretary and the Government to point out that we shall be obliged to raise the question of the officers when the Bill is introduced, and therefore we will afford the Government some opportunity of meeting the case as far as possible when the Bill is drafted. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary will give us some assurance that these matters will not be left out of this proposed Bill.
No one who is acquainted with the members of the Irish Police Force of all ranks can fail to admire the courageous, gallant and loyal way in which they have behaved. I do not think there is any party who has not appreciated the conduct, during the crisis, of both police forces, and also of all ranks. With the majority of people with whom I have come in contact no question has ever been raised as to the strenuous service rendered in the past by all ranks of the Irish Constabulary. My hon. and gallant Friend has drawn a distinction between the rank and file and the more highly paid members of the force. In these trying times the pressure falls more acutely and immediately on those who have small incomes than on those who have large incomes.
I would point out that, in the case of the officers, a higher style of living is insisted upon by the Inspector-General, and, although that is quite right, still there are underpaid junior officers who find the pressure just as much as their constables.
Representations were made to the Government with regard to the position of the officers, and I had the opportunity of discussing the matter with the chiefs of both forces. The Bill has been framed in a manner which, in my judgment, deals as practically as we are able to do with the position of the officers, up to a certain rank. The hon. and gallant Gentleman will see from the Schedules whether there is any reason to complain, and he will see the course which has been taken with regard to the officers. As the hon. Gentleman has said, the matter will be open to discussion, and, when the Bill is presented, I ask him to examine the Schedule with care. Although I cannot hold out any expectation that I can persuade the Treasury to go any appreciable distance beyond what they have done in respect of the burden put on the Treasury in regard to police pay. Still if "there is any glaring inconsistency or discrepancy, attention will be given to it.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolution by Mr. Duke, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the Attorney-General for Ireland.
CONSTABULARY AND POLICE (IRELAND)
REGISTRATION OF BUSINESS NAMES [REMUNERATION].
Considered in Committee.
[Sir FREDERICK BANBURY in the Chair.]
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it is expedient to authorise the payment of remuneration in respect of duties performed under any Act of the present Session to provide for the registration of firms and persons carrying on "business under business names."
May I ask what are the particular expenses for which it is intended to provide?
The cost of registration is to be paid nominally out of the public funds, but will be covered actually by the registration fees paid into the public purse, and the cost of the registration will, therefore be paid out of the public purse, and we must have this Resolution.
There is no difficulty about the expenses, but a certain right lion. Member has always made it a rule to suggest a limited sum, but he is in a somewhat different position on this occasion, and it is not because I wish to take any advantage of that circumstance, but only because I want the hon. Gentleman to reply that I put a question as to the amount.
Perhaps the representative of the Government will give us some assurance, if there is a charge under this Bill, that it will be on such a scale as to cover all the expenses.
I am quite certain that is the intention, and I can undertake that it will be carried out. I would be the last person to take advantage of the present peculiar circumstances to transgress the principle which has been so often advocated by the right hon. Gentleman now in the Chair.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolution to be reported to-morrow.
PRE-WAR DEPENDANTS.
Motion made, and Question proposed, " That this House do now adjourn."
6.0 P.M.
At Question Time today I gave notice that I would raise a subject arising out of the answer given to me by the Financial Secretary to the War Office on Question No. 66. The question to which I refer related to a case which is only an example of many which are now frequently occurring. It is the case of a soldier who died, and who, in the terms of the Army Regulation, was not in position which left dependants upon him when he enlisted in the Army, and in consequence of this regulation the War Office refused, in the terms of their Order, to grant any pension. The consequence of this rule is that in all the cases where parents, instead of being provident and showing a desire for the welfare of their children, have sent them, in their early days, to occupations in which they can earn a considerable income, dependants had arisen before the lad had joined the Army, and in such cases a pension is granted to pre-war dependants. But in the case of parents who have seen to the education of their lads and sent them to the university, or have put them in apprenticeship, when their sons have enlisted they are, consequently, not pre-war dependants, and for that reason no pension is granted. I describe this system as a system which penalises parents who have made sacrifices in the interests of their children and in the interests of the State. I believe the rule was made by the Select Committee in the early months of the War, when they agreed on the principle of pre-war dependants as the result of previous experience. Had they foreseen the extent to which young men would enlist who were in the position of the young men to whom I have referred, they never would have accepted such a rigid rule. In the case which I have brought under notice it is true that no pre-war dependants had arisen, because the young man had not completed his university course, but in the course of another year his university curriculum would have been at an end, and by that time he would have been contributing to his widowed mother; but, because he patriotically enlisted in the Army before completing his university career, and before he had started to be a regular contributor to his parent, the widowed mother has no relief from the State. I think that is a situation which cannot be defended. It is true that the hon. Gentleman, in replying to a supplementary question, suggested that the Statutory Committee could deal with cases of that kind. It is true that the Committee is able to deal with certain cases of that kind; but, in view of the answer which was given by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board about a fortnight ago to my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge), it will be found that in this particular case the Statutory Committee is not entitled to make any grant. That answer was that in the case of soldiers who died in Mesopotamia the Statutory Committee were unable to make any grants out of their fund. So that in the case with which I am now dealing neither could there be a pension granted under the terms of the Army Regulations nor is the Statutory Committee legally empowered to make any grant. Obviously that is a condition of things which must be remedied. Personally, I do not desire that cases like this should simply be left to the Statutory Committee. I think not only in cases where there was pre-war dependence, but in cases where there was immediate or prospective dependence that there should be a claim on the part of the surviving dependant for a pension. I am quite sure that when this question comes to be thrashed out, and it must be, because many hon. Members are now receiving cases of a kind similar to that with which I deal, that the War Office will be driven to modify their Regulations. I suggest that the hon. Member should recommend that questions of this kind, not only this question, but questions of this kind which have arisen as the result of the experience of the present War, should be referred once more to the Select Com- mittee, and that the Select Committee should reopen with a view to revising the rules which they laid down on inadequate experience in the early stages of the War.
My hon. Friend has put the position very clearly and quite correctly before the House. He-says that the basis of pension in these cases has been settled on pre-war dependence and that that inflicts hardship in a number of individual cases, and he expresses the view that that is mistaken policy. The House will remember it is not the policy of the War Office. It is-the policy of the Select Committee which was appointed by the House to go into these questions, and I think I am right in saying that the House welcomed the appointment of that Committee because the House wanted to feel that the House itself was settling these different pension questions, and that they were not being left to, what shall I say, to the officials of the public Department. That, of course,, makes it impossible for the War Office to depart from the basis on which those pensions are assessed. My hon. Friend draws attention to a matter which astonished me at the time, and I am quite sure surprised the House at the time, and that is that in certain cases, such as Mesopotamia, where the troops are paid, or may be taken to be paid, out of Indian funds, the Statutory Committee is powerless to-give a pension from its fund. I do not think that that was the intention of the House when it set up the Statutory Committee. I am quite sure that those who are responsible will take steps to see if the legal opinion which has been given is sound. And I do not for a moment doubt it, and, if it is, steps must be taken to find some remedy for that shortcoming. My hon. Friend has made the suggestion that it would be a good thing if the Select Committee were reappointed to go into-the various questions, this amongst others, to which attention has been drawn. Of course, it is not for me to-say whether the Committee would be reappointed or not, but I will make sure that the views expressed by my hon. Friend reach 'the Prime Minister, and I do not doubt that the Government will give very full consideration to the suggestion.
May I ask what the hon. Gentleman meant by the Indian Fund, as I did not quite follow him? In the case of men killed in Mesopotamia, are the pensions to be paid from the Indian Fund? What is the Indian Fund?
Perhaps I did not succeed in making myself clear. The Indian Government is paying a certain proportion of the cost of the troops employed in Mesopotamia. That is what I meant by the Indian Fund. It is charged against the Indian revenue.
Then all casualties incurred in Mesopotamia will be charged to the Indian Government?
No. The arrangement is that the Government of India are contributing towards the cost of the "War the normal amount charged against Indian revenue for the maintenance of the Indian Army in times of peace.
Does that cover casualties?
I am sure we are all very glad to have the reply we have just heard from my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary. I gather from him that he is prepared to take up with the India Office the question of its position with regard to the Statutory Committee and our troops in Mesopotamia. I should like to remind him that there has been a long interval of time in which there have been very considerable casualties with regard to the Mesopotamian forces, and that both officers and men are therefore in the position, until such a decision has been come to, of being in many cases in dire want. I want to suggest to him that he should represent either to the Secretary of State for War or to the Secretary of State for India that this is continuing at the moment, and that it affects those men and that the matter is really urgent in the cases of these men. It is not a question of referring it to a Department. I do ask my hon. Friend if he will personally give this matter his own attention, because one knows of a great many cases of men who really ought to have their cases dealt with. If he does give that assurance, I am sure it will give satisfaction to us all.
Yes; I will give it my immediate and my personal attention.
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Nine minutes after Six o'clock.