House Of Commons
Thursday, 20th March, 1917.
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
Barton and Stretford Railway Bill,
Reported [Preamble not proved]; Report to lie upon, the Table, and to be printed.
Railway Bills (Group 1),
Sir GODFREY BARING reported from the Committee on Group 1 of Railway Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, the Committee had adjourned till Wednesday, 25th April, at half-past Eleven of the clock.
Report to lie upon the Table.
Army (Military Savings Banks)
Copy presented of Statement of the Amounts due by the Public to Depositors on 31st March, 1915, and of the Receipts, Interest, and Disbursements during the year ended 31st March, 1916, etc. [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 57.]
Civil Services (Supplementary Estimate, 1917–18)
Estimate presented of further Sum to be voted for the service of the year ending 31st March, 1918 [by Command]; referred to the Committee of Supply, and to be printed. [No. 56.]
Colonial Reports (Annual)
Copy presented of Report No. 919 (Nyasaland, Report for 1915–16 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Oral Answers To Questions
War
Deportations (Ireland)
2, 3, and 4.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland (1) whether the arrest and deportation of Mr. J. J. O' Kelly, without charge or trial, was-because he is secretary of the Society for the Preservation of the Irish Language, a purely literary body, which has been publishing an annual volume of Irish literature and has undertaken a scheme for writing the whole history of Ireland in modern Irish based on the baronial division; whether the material for the annual report of this society, taken from Mr. O' Kelly's house by the military last May, will now be returned to him; (2). whether the arrest and deportation of Mr. J. J. O' Kelly, without charge or trial, was because he is vice-president of the Gaelic League, and a member of and constant attendant on its four most active subcommittees, namely, the Oireachtas committee, which holds an annual festival extending over a week, and is devoted to the revival of the language, literature, social customs, songs, stories, music, art, pastimes, and industries of Ireland; the finance committee; the publications committee; the committee charged with education and organisation; and whether all these activities are now held to be illegal; and (3) whether the arrest and deportation of Mr. J. J. O' Kelly, without charge or trial, was due to his criticism in the "Catholic Bulletin" of the proposal to partition Ireland, or to his criticism of the Hardinge Commission on-the insurrection, or to his criticism of the financial provisions in the Government of Ireland Act, or to his criticism of the three Irish Members of Parliament on whose advice Ireland has been ruled in recent years; and whether all or any of such criticisms are now held to be illegal?
I can add nothing to the answers I have made to the numerous questions asked by the hon. Member on this subject.
The right hon. Gentleman has not informed the House whether any of these activities are illegal, and why this gentleman has been deported without charge or trial. May I ask for an answer to the question on the Paper, whether those are the offences? Mr. Speaker, am I not entitled to an answer?
The hon. Member has had his answer.
No; I have had no answer.
It may not suit the hon. Member, but he has had an answer.
Has this gentleman committed any offence whatever?
26.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, seeing that the War Office and the Home Office say that the control and maintenance of those deported from Ireland without charge or trial rest with the Irish Office, will he say what the intentions of the Government are regarding the places in which, the conditions under which, and the time for which the deportees are to be compelled to reside; why Irish newspapers sent to them by friends are not allowed to reach them: and what are the arrangements for their maintenance and the maintenance of their dependent families in Ireland deprived of their breadwinners?
The matters mentioned in the first part of the question are controlled by the military authorities under the Defence of the Realm Regulations, and] cannot find that any suggestion to the contrary has been made. No stoppage of newspapers has been made by any Irish Department; or, so far as I know, by any Department. In any case in which the question of dependants arises inquiry will be made, and any necessary action directed.
Rebellion In Ireland
5.
asked the Chief Secretary if he is now in a position to state the name of the valuer on whose valuation the Government have paid £63,000 of public money to the "Freeman's Journal," Limited, for destruction of property which that company itself in its annual financial statement preceding the insurrection valued at £31,000; whether in any case other than that of this newspaper the estimate of the claimant's valuer was so closely adopted without reference to other evidence of value; and, if he still refuses to allow an independent examination of the particulars of this case, will he say why?
I have nothing to add to the answer which I gave the hon. Member on the 22nd instant.
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the question: If he refuses an independent examination of these particulars, why?
These particulars were examined by as capable a Committee as I have ever known.
Will the right hon. Gentleman allow an independent examination of these particulars, and, if not, why?
No, Sir, I do not propose to do anything of the kind.
Because you dare not?
Is it the case that loss of profit has been allowed in this case, whereas in the case of all the other Dublin shopkeepers who have suffered loss of profit has not been taken into account? There is considerable feeling amongst Irish shopkeepers that they have been discriminated against if the figures given by the hon. Member are correct.
I looked into the matter very closely, and I am satisfied that the proprietors of this journal have been dealt with in precisely the same way and on precisely the same lines as every other applicant. If necessary, I have not the least objection to get the papers and show them to my hon. and learned Friend if he thinks there has been discrimination.
The shopkeepers of Dublin undoubtedly feel strongly on the subject, and I should be much obliged if the right hon. Gentleman would investigate the matter a little further.
If I am asked to look further into the matter and see if there has been discrimination, although I am satisfied there has not been, I cannot refuse the request.
Appointment Of Medical Officer (Newport, Mayo)
6.
asked the Chief Secretary under what statute or by what authority the Local Government Board for Ireland claim the right to object to the appointment of Dr. George Maguire as medical officer of Newport (Mayo) dispensary district, on the grounds that he is of military age; and, if the Board have no such legal right, will he advise the immediate sanction of the appointment, so that the sick poor of this district may have the medical attendance to which they are entitled?
Under the Poor Relief (Ireland) Act, 1851, the approval of the Local Government Board is required to any appointment of the medical officer of a dispensary district.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give me the grounds why this gentleman was not sanctioned?
My impression is that he was not sanctioned because he was of an age when he was eligible to render much more important services to the State.
What will the poor people do for medical attendance?
Wool Clip, Ireland
15.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland what arrangements have been made for the purchase of the Irish wool clip this year; whether the system set up last year is to continue; if there is to be any revision of the scale of prices paid to the Irish farmers for their wool; and if they will be paid the same prices as farmers in Great Britain?
It is proposed to continue the present system of purchase this year. The scale of prices is being reconsidered, and the Irish prices will be on the same basis as those for Great Britain.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is a fact that there is considerable dissatisfaction existing in regard to the constitution of this Committee and the carrying out of this scheme for this wool purchase; whether it is a fact that there is general dissatisfaction existing in regard to the working of the scheme; whether it is a fact that representative suggestions and views put forward by a large body of Irish Members were flouted and ignored; what steps he proposes to take this year to put this Committee on a popular and representative basis, and what steps he proposes—
The hon. Member has already asked five questions.
My answer to all five is in the negative.
Food Supplies
Land Cultivation (Ireland)
16.
asked what steps do the Government propose to take with reference to the supply of artificial fertilisers for Irish agriculture next season?
I dealt with this matter in reply to the hon. Member for South Sligo last Thursday.
19.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether, in view of the recommendations of the agricultural policy sub-committee, he will consider the advisability of vesting the Estates Commissioners and the Congested Districts Board with increased powers and facilities for the acquisition and division of the untenanted grass lands in Ireland so that the same may be allotted and divided amongst uneconomic holders, evicted tenants, and landless men, and made available for tillage next year?
Land legislation for Ireland such as the hon. Member mentions would raise such controversial issues that I am not able at present to entertain the idea of presenting a Bill on the subject.
Could it not be done under the Defence of the Realm Act?
I do not think it could.
20.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that Mrs. Dickson, of Tullaghan, county Leitrim, has offered for sale a grazing ranch near Tullaghan, all of which is most suitable for food production; and whether the Department of Agriculture will take over this land for the term of the War for distribution for tillage purposes?
In January last the farm referred to was put up for auction, but there was no bid. The case is under investigation by the Department of Agriculture.
21.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that the Estates Commissioners were some time ago negotiating for the purchase of a large farm situated at Tullaghan, county Leitrim, then in the possession of a man named Reynolds, on the Massey estate, for the purpose of redistribution and enlarging uneconomic holdings in that district, including John and Pat M'Gowan, evicted tenants; and whether the Estates Commissioners will now acquire this land for the said purpose and to increase the area of tillage in that district?
I am informed that John and Pat M'Gowan held as yearly subtenants about 12 acres and 17 acres, respectively, of the holding of Robert J. Reynolds of about 59 acres. The Estates Commissioners, with the consent of Reynolds, declared the sub-tenants to be direct tenants for the purposes of sale under Section 15 of the Irish Land Act, 1903, and purchase undertakings were signed accordingly. Reynolds signed an undertaking to purchase the remainder of the holding in his occupation, and it was suggested that he might enlarge the lands in the occupation of John and Pat M'Gowan. He, however, sold his lands and the present occupant is unwilling to part with any portion of them. The Estates Commissioners have no power to compel him to sell the lands or any part thereof.
Having regard to the fact that there is no suitable land for tillage available in this district will not these tenants be provided with allotments for tillage during the term of the War?
I cannot say that off hand.
27.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the Lord Lieutenant can see his way to exercise his prerogative to have the remaining part of the imprisonment remitted in the case of those men from the parish of Milltown, county Galway, at present in Galway Gaol for having undertaken tillage operations on the farm of Mr. J. D. Blake?
No application has been made for the exercise of the prerogative in these cases. The men are in gaol in default of giving bail for good behaviour, and they can obtain their release at any time by complying with the order for bail.
30.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he can give a rough estimate of the amount of untenanted land in Ireland that is not being adequately used and is desired by would-be cultivators for purposes of food production; and whether it, or any proportion of it, can be acquired for that purpose under the Regulations made under the Defence of the Realm Act, without the need of having recourse to the Land Purchase Acts?
The materials for such an estimate do not exist. The Tillage Regulations in force in Ireland appear likely to secure a considerable present increase of tillage for food production, and I hope they may permanently encourage tillage, but the general conversion of grazing lands into tillage appears not to be within the scope of the Defence of the Realm Regulations.
Are there to be any proposals under this head in the new Bill which has been promised dealing with agriculture?
I am afraid that I cannot answer that question at the moment, as to whether that is a question to which attention is being directed.
Will it be possible to deal with the grazing ranches in Ireland under this new Bill?
Hon. Members know even better than I do what a controversial topic this is, and that it would very likely be impossible to pass such a measure without serious controversy.
Is it not the fact that a considerable amount of this land is not being as adequately used as is desirable?
It is quite true that a great deal of this land is being used as it has been used probably for two generations for the purpose of grazing. What the hon. Member invites me to do as an emergency measure is to alter that economic condition throughout the country. I do not think that emergency measures were designed with that object.
Have not the Congested Districts Board at this moment power to do what is here asked, and will not the Government put pressure on the Congested Districts Board to use some expedition in doing this work instead of shillyshallying as they have been doing for months?
I cannot accept the suggestion that the Congested Districts Board have been shilly-shallying as the hon. Member says. I have made representations, however, to the Congested Districts Board to accelerate their procedure in the existing state of emergency.
What is controversial about the question of land purchase?
24.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he is aware that 400 acres of land in the townlands of Cappanaclough and Derrykearn, etc., Queen's County, are flooded annually and rendered useless for tillage purposes by the River Nore; if he is aware that this flooding is caused by a weir on the river a few miles further down; if he is aware that the woollen mill in connection with which the weir was erected is dismantled, in ruins, and has not been working for over thirty years; and whether, under the circumstances, and in view of the necessity for increased tillage, he will take any action to have this weir removed?
I have called for a Report as to the floodings the hon. Member mentions, and as to whether the Board of Works are able to deal with the matter without proceedings under the Arterial Drainage Acts. Such proceedings necessarily occupy many months.
Oats And Wheat
34.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he is yet in a position to say who is to select or differentiate as to the qualities of oats, or how such selection is to be carried out; what prices will be given for damaged oats and wheat; and will he consider carefully any representations made to him by an authority outside the Government as to the best mode of dealing and standardising the different classes of wheat and oats?
I am communicating with the Food Controller on the matters mentioned in the question. They are not within the province of any of the Irish Departments.
Irish Produce (Prices)
35.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he will cause steps to be immediately taken by the Irish Department of Agriculture to prevent English bacon curers exporting live swine from Ireland until such time as the Food Controller will fix an equivalent price as regards Irish and English bacon; is he aware that the difference of 8s. or 10s. per cwt. in price is a direct incentive to Messrs. Harris and Harris, and other big bacon curers in this country to go over to Ireland and purchase live swine for export; and if he will take steps to prevent the Irish bacon curers being put at such a disadvantage in the matter of trade? competition with the bacon curers of this country by having such a large margin per cwt. in the prices fixed?
I have been asked to reply. The prices of bacon were fixed after full consideration of the previous prices for English and Irish bacon, and of the normal difference between them. There seems to be no good reason why these prices should unduly stimulate the export of live pigs from Ireland, which has always existed on an extensive scale. It would certainly not be in the interest of Irish producers to prohibit this export. The prices, as already stated, are subject to revision at periodic intervals.
If the prices come to be revised, will the right hon. Gentleman take good care that Irish bacon curers should be consulted as to the fixing of these prices, and also that the opinion of Irishmen should be taken and not that of a Government broker or contractor?
I cannot say that that question arises, but in any case I can say that Irish producers as well as representatives of the bacon curers will be consulted.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take care not to prohibit the exportation of live pigs from Ireland, as there are many men deriving a living from that?
I am sorry to say that I could not hear what the hon. Gentleman has asked. Perhaps he will meet me after questions, and I will endeavour to give him an answer.
37.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he was consulted by the Food Controller before the prices for Irish butter and bacon were fixed; and, in view of the necessity for having Irish interests safeguarded in such matters, will he insist that Mr. Hegarty, chairman of the Irish Creamery Managers' Association, who has the confidence of the Irish butter producers, should be consulted when Irish butter prices are being fixed, and also have a representative of the Irish bacon trade consulted as to the price to be fixed for Irish bacon?
I have been asked to reply. The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. In reply to the second part of the question, Mr. Hegarty was present, with other delegates, representing butter and bacon interests in Ireland, at the conference on the 22nd inst. of representatives of Provincial Produce Exchanges and Producers' Associations, to discuss the prices of provisions.
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the latter part of my question, that Mr. Hegarty will in future be brought over not on his own initiative, but at the request of the Food Controller, when the butter question comes to be decided? He came over a week ago on his own initiative, without being asked by the Food Controller.
The Food Controller has not directly anything to do with these conferences. As I have pointed out before, they are held under the auspices of the London and Provincial Produce Exchanges, and they send representatives of the producers, British and Irish. I will make the suggestion to the secretary of the London Produce Exchange.
Margarine (Sale As Butter)
36.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that it is now becoming a common practice to expose margarine for sale without any label on it and have it thus sold as butter; is he aware that such proceedings are most detrimental to the butter industry; and will steps be taken immediately to prevent them and have heavy penalties imposed upon people who may be charged with doing such work?
The Department of Agriculture are not aware that the practice referred to is common. Careful attention is paid to the matter by the inspectors of the Department. There is no power to interfere with the discretion of magistrates as to the amount of the penalties inflicted for the offence.
Potatoes
38.
asked the Vice-President of Agriculture (Ireland) what the Department propose to do in those cases in which they undertook to supply seed potatoes which they are now unable to supply; and why, in these circumstances an offer of 500 tons of seed potatoes to the Department has not been even acknowledged?
The Department of Agriculture have arranged for the supply of all the potatoes ordered by rural district councils in connection with approved loan schemes. The greater portion of the potatoes have been supplied, and a very large quantity distributed to the applicants. It is expected that the remainder will be dispatched this week. The Department received from a gentleman in Mullingar an offer to sell them 500 tons of potatoes which, on inquiry, it was found he did not hold.
Why is not the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture here to answer these questions? We have not seen him in the House this Session.
The Vice-President is occupied very closely indeed in matters devised to fulfil the obligations arising out of the state of agriculture in Ireland at present, but in answering his questions I take care to be in personal communication with my right hon. Friend with regard to these matters.
Fish Supply
39.
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether any stops, such as those announced by the Board of Agriculture in England, are being taken by his Department with respect to the preservation and increase of the supply of fish from sea and inland waters?
The matter is being considered by the Department.
69.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will endeavour to improve the facilities for the transport of fish from the coasts of Scotland in order to help the fishermen and to supplement the food of the people?
I can only assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that the Board of Trade realise fully the importance of this question, which is, I understand, being considered by the Fishery Board for Scotland in consultation with the railway companies concerned.
72.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has now heard from the Railway Executive Committee as to whether they intend to insist on the prepayment of fish by passenger train; and what action he proposes to take in this matter?
This matter is being considered by the Railway Executive Committee, and I am unable to give a definite answer at the present moment.
I will put down the question again for Monday, and unless I receive a satisfactory reply I shall call attention to this question on the Motion for the Adjournment.
The worm will turn!
76.
asked the Secretary for Scotland if he will say what steps are being taken by his Department to assist Scottish fishermen to increase the supplies of fish; and whether he proposes to render available for the home market cured fish normally exported?
The steps taken are mainly in the direction, first, of securing the greatest possible opportunities for fishing consistently with naval interests; and, secondly, of organising the available resources in vessels and men so that a maximum of catching power may be brought to bear within the limits authorised from time to time by the naval authorities. For reasons which my hon. Friend will appreciate, I cannot enter into details. It is the fact that the total landings in Scotland in 1917 down to the present date greatly exceed those in the corresponding period of 1916. The question whether existing stocks of cured fish should be retained in this country is primarily one for the Food Controller; and as regards future catches, particularly in connection with the great summer herring fishing, everything possible will be done so far as I am concerned to meet the requirements of the home market.
May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he will lend his assistance in seeing that the Board of Trade do not insist upon prepayment for the carriage of fish, which will injure very seriously the carriage of fish from Scotland to this country?
I shall be very happy to confer with my hon. Friend.
Sugar
64.
asked the President of the. Board of Trade whether the inquiry into the supply and distribution of sugar in Ireland has been completed; and whether he is able to make any announcement on the subject?
I have been asked to reply. The reports of the inspectors who visited Ireland have been received. They do not indicate that there is any general shortage of sugar in Ireland as compared with other parts of the United Kingdom, but they make it clear that the same problems in regard to distribution are found there as elsewhere. As the hon. Member is no doubt aware, these problems are under the immediate consideration of a Departmental Committee, and the Food Controller is not prepared to anticipate the findings of that Committee.
Mercantile Marine
59.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is satisfied that the scale of food supply in use in the mercantile marine is in reasonable conformity with the requirements of the Food Controller?
The Board of Trade and the Ministry of Food have this matter under consideration.
Pickled Herrings
60.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether 90,000 barrels of pickled herrings are about to be exported out of the United Kingdom from Stornoway; and, if so, whether such export should be permitted during the present crisis?
(representing the War Trade Department): I understand that there are approximately 90,000 barrels of pickled herrings in Stornoway representing the winter catch. Licences for their export from the United Kingdom have not yet been granted, and will not be as long as there is any prospect of their being consumed at home. The President of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries has appointed a Committee under the chairmanship of the hon. Member for South Bedfordshire, part of whose task will be to encourage the home consumption of such fish. There has never yet been any demand from the British public for pickled herrings, and if this continues to be the case, it is clear that steps will have to be taken to prevent the local industry from being ruined. It is, therefore, very desirable that every effort should be made to popularise this form of food at home.
May I ask whether his attention has been called to the statement made in the papers recently that barrels of pickled herrings on being opened were found to contain bars of aluminium consigned to Holland?
They would not be allowed to go.
Will the hon. Gentleman represent as an attraction of pickled herrings that they give rise to a considerable thirst?
Petrol Supply
66.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the Petrol Committee is reducing the supply of petrol to the farmers, in some instances to one-third of their previous supply; is he aware that the action of the Committee will prevent the proper management of the farms and interfere with food production; and will he arrange for the farmers to have a larger supply of petrol?
The Petrol Control Committee are not reducing the supply of petrol to farmers for use in motor ploughs, motor tractors, and agricultural machinery generally. Private motor cars owned by farmers would not, however, be allotted more than the ordinary restricted allowance unless they were actually being used for agricultural purposes for which an increased quantity of petrol was necessary.
Will the hon. Gentleman cause inquiry to be made by the Petrol Committee where motor bicycles and motor cars are being used in the management of large farms for agricultural purposes, and not for pleasure?
In cases where we experience any doubt in the matter we refer to the Board of Agriculture and the County War Agricultural Committees.
Canadian-Canned Salmon
41.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can see his way to have the prohibition against the import of Canadian-canned salmon so relaxed as to give the relatively small amount of salmon canned in British Columbia the benefit of a free entry into Great Britain, in view of the fact that the pre-war import of such salmon amounted only to one-fifth of the total import from the North American Continent and that the remaining four-fifths, chiefly the product of Alaska, have a free entry into the United States, whereas there is a high Import Duty charged on all British Columbian salmon entering that market?
I am glad to be able to inform my hon. Friend that it has been found possible to make an arrangement of the nature indicated in the reply returned to his previous question on the subject by the Secretary to the Board of Trade on the 21st instant.
Petrol Supplies
17.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland the result of his communications with the Petrol Committee on the subject of the supply of petrol to clergymen of all denominations in Ireland?
I have already written to the hon. Member informing him that the Petrol Committee will be glad to continue to allot a small quantity of petrol to the clergy using motor cars in connection with their professional duties.
Burtonport And Letterkenny Railway
23.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is now in a position to make a statement of the intentions of the Government with regard to the Burtonport and Letterkenny Railway?
I have not yet received the Report on the Burtonport Railway, but the matter is being dealt with as speedily as possible. The legal and financial questions require careful consideration.
Seeing that it is now over a month since this matter was brought to the attention of the Irish Government, and the working of the railway is steadily going from bad to worse, and that the matter is very urgent, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to take steps for dealing with the matter very speedily?
I shall certainly do that. I am well aware of the very unfortunate condition which the past management of the railway has produced; and every effort that can be made is being made to remedy that. If legislation becomes necessary the matter may have to be considered, but I hope it will not be necessary.
Will the right hon. Gentleman be in a position to make a statement on this subject next Monday?
I am not sure that I shall. The Railway Executive and other authorities are dealing with this matter with great closeness, and I can assure the hon. Member that they are taking the keenest interest in the business, with a desire to remedy what has been a great wrong to the inhabitants in that part of the country.
Health Resorts, Ireland (Travel Facilities For Visitors)
28.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that since the outbreak of the War the health resorts and watering places in Ireland have had to depend almost altogether upon visitors from the industrial and agricultural parts of the country, owing to the curtailment of the cross-Channel and other passenger steamboat services, and that any increase in railway fares or reduction in railway facilities will not only tend to deprive city workers of a much-needed vacation, but will seriously affect the health resorts and watering places of Ireland: and whether, with a view to protect the interests at stake, he will press this matter upon the attention of the proper authority?
The Irish Railway Executive Committee have the matter referred to in their hands. They will, I am sure, give such facilities as they can for necessary traffic, but economy of fuel is a governing consideration in railway control under present conditions.
May I take it for granted that the right hon. Gentleman is aware that the facts mentioned in the question are accurate?
I know that for several small Irish watering places it is a very serious matter. I have taken care to have attention called to it in every quarter where effect can be given to such measures as are possible for mitigating the trouble
Fishing Permits (Ireland)
40.
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland), in view of the statement of the Admiralty that permits for fishing are issued in Ireland on the recommendation of the Department of Agriculture, if he will state the grounds upon which that Department withholds its recommendation in the case of Mr. Maurice O'Connell, Renard Road, Cahirciveen, thus depriving him of his means of living by the lawful industry of fishing with his boat the "St. Fiacra," in which his money and industry are invested; and whether the necessary document will be issued for the season now opening?
The Department of Agriculture have not seen the statement referred to. The case of Mr. O'Connell was dealt with in reply to the hon. Member on the 19th instant.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Secretary to the Admiralty informed me in this House that the Admiralty endorse permits only when they are given by the Department of Agriculture, and the question I ask is why the Department of Agriculture refused the permit in this particular case?
The hon. Member must have misunderstood what I said. What I told him was that the decision in the matter rests with the Admiralty commander on the Irish coast.
Has the Department given this man a recommendation? I am entitled to an answer. The Secretary to the Admiralty said that the Admiralty only endorse permits when they are issued by the Department. Has the Department refused a permit in this case?
If a question is put on the Paper I will make inquiries. That is not the question on the Paper.
Munitions
Cotton Textile Trade
42.
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware of the uncertainty which prevails in the cotton textile trade arising out of the order of the 8th March affecting the priority of production of textiles; whether applications have to be made by exporters to, and priority certificates obtained from, the Ministry of Munitions in respect- of each export order before priority certificate B can be issued by such exporters to the manufacturers; if so, whether he is aware of the number of applications which will have to be made and of the consequent delays which will occur; and whether he will make a statement as to the procedure which has to be followed by manufacturers and exporters of textiles.
The Order of 8th March only requires firms to give priority to any work for which they may have received A or B certificates. Unless and until and such certificates are received by a manufacturer he can go on with the ordinary commercial work as he pleases. Class B certificates may be issued in respect of "export orders certified in writing" by various Departments as being "of sufficient national importance to be specially approved for export to approved destinations," and as regards ordinary commercial orders, the responsibility for the issue of any certificates that may be found necessary will rest mainly with the Board of Trade. I have been in communication with my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, and I understand that it is not his intention, as a rule, to exercise this power by issuing certificates for particular export orders, but by issuing a general Order specifying any industry in which he may consider that production for export should have priority over production for home consumption, and also specifying the classes of orders to which for this purpose priority must, so far as practicable, be given. My hon. Friend will, therefore, see that it will be unnecessary for applications to be made to the Board of Trade or to the Ministry of Munitions each time an exporter desires to secure priority.
Will the hon. Gentleman take care to make representations to the President of the Board of Trade to consult the cotton trade before anything is done or any Order is issued?
I will make that communication to him.
Has the hon. Member, the head of this Department of the Ministry of Munitions, dealing with the priority claim, himself the commercial experience and qualifications to enable him to deal with this commercial matter?
The head of this branch of the Ministry of Munitions does not deal with individual applications, but he acts on the advice of men who are experts on the subject.
Has the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil, who is at the head of this Department of the Ministry of Munitions, the commercial experience qualifying him to discharge the duties of this important office?
I stated before that the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil, who is at the head of this branch of the Ministry of Munitions, is assisted by the advice of experts.
Woolwich Arsrnal
43.
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware that men of many years' service in Woolwich Arsenal are being released for the Army while younger men, some of them single, with much less service are being retained; whether he is satisfied that the method of selecting the men to be released leaves no opportunity for the practice of favouritism; and whether he is aware of the case of a man who has been ordered to join the Army early next month, who has been in the Arsenal for sixteen years and only lost one hour since the outbreak of war, and who when he goes will leave behind single men with only two years' service?
In selecting men to-be released for military service in the Ordnance Factories at Woolwich the rule is that men of equal skill are released only in order of age, single men being taken before married men. The Minister is satisfied that this rule is observed by the management. It is essential that the management should retain the power of keeping single men in preference to married men in those cases where the single men are better qualified for the work which has to be done. I have not been able to trace any such case as that referred to in the last part of my right hon. Friend's question, but if he will send me precise details I will have inquiries made.
44 and 58.
asked the Minister of Munitions (1) if he is aware that instructions have been given that viewers in future will not be allowed to work in the town in which they reside, and that Woolwich viewers who have moved their homes and families to Birmingham will not be allowed to work in Birmingham; that they will not be allowed the option of travelling to and from their homes and foregoing the subsistence allowance, but must take lodgings in the town where they are working; and whether he will take steps to remove these restrictions; and (2) if he is aware that, under Departmental Order No. 300, issued from Woolwich, the viewers employed in the Birmingham inspection department have had their wages reduced by 4s. 3d. per week and their conditions of employment made worse; and whether he will inquire into this matter with the object of at least increasing their pay to what it was previous to the order being issued?
These questions refer to the War Office Inspection Department. The object of the new order is to secure uniformity of treatment for all the viewers employed under the inspection department, the headquarters of which are at Woolwich Dockyard. The decision has been arrived at after full consideration.
Is not this an example of the extravagance of the Department which sends men from the town where they were living to a place where they have to be paid subsistence allowance?
It was rather late in the, day when this question reached the War Office and I had no opportunity of looking at the Order which has been made. However, if my hon. Friend will put the question I will look into the matter more fully.
National Service
Official Advertisements
45.
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the fact that official National Service advertisements are being published in the Scottish newspapers addressed to the men of England inviting them to enrol for National Service; and whether the National Service appeal is directed only to Englishmen and not to Scotsmen?
My right hon. Friend has requested me to reply to this question. This matter has already been brought to the notice of the Director-General of National Service, and the wording of the advertisements to which my hon. Friend refers has been amended. The appeal is not only directed to Englishmen but to all men between the ages of eighteen and sixty-one throughout Great Britain.
Is it the fact that the gentleman who is in charge- of the distribution of these advertisements is an American, and is there no Britishers who could be asked to do this work, and who would have a more intimate knowledge of the divisions of the United Kingdom?
I cannot add anything to the answer.
Is not the use of the words describing the country as the United Kingdom a breach of the Treaty of Union?
Intoxicating Liquors (Sale)
46 and 49.
asked the Prime Minister (1) in case of further restrictions being made with regard to the sale of intoxicants, will he provide for such compensation to the industries affected as will enable proprietors of public-houses where desirable to keep their premises open to the public for purposes of recreation and refreshment; and will he state whether the Government has come to a decision as to the desirability or otherwise of State purchase; and (2) whether he is aware of the vote recently taken at Govan, when the large majority of workmen voted in favour of the total prohibition of the sale of spirits and beer during war-time, and, in view of the unanimous declaration of the employers and managers of shipbuilding yards and munition works in that neighbourhood in its favour, will he take such steps as may be necessary to reduce the quantity of spirits available for consumption in the same proportion as the reduction in the production of beer, etc.; and will he consider the desirability of affording compensation to persons employed in the licensed trade until such persons are able to obtain employment in national or other service, and to others dependent upon such industries, seeing that the sooner termination of the War by a few weeks would pay for such compensation and also for loss of revenue incurred by such restrictions?
All I can say is that the whole question is receiving the consideration of the Government.
Will any further restriction of the output of beer be made by Bill or by Order?
It will be done today or to-morrow under the Order of the Food Controller.
Are we to understand that the position of the tenants or publicans who are giving service will be considered at the same time as the position of the wealthy brewers?
Most certainly; whatever consideration is given to the one will be given to the other.
Will there be an opportunity of discussing this further restriction as on the first occasion, when it was done by Bill?
In the Prime Minister's statement it was made quite plain that the matter would be carried out at once.
Have the Government in mind any special considerations which differentiate this trade from any other trade?
I can add nothing to the general answer I have given.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give any figures in regard to question No. 49?
I have not got the figures.
53.
asked the Prime Minister whether, with a View to ascertaining the desire of the Scottish people for prohibition of the sale of liquor during the War, and for the period of demobilisation after the War, he will consent to a Return being obtained of the number of petitions and resolutions, etc., received from Scotland since the formation of the present Government by the Prime Minister and other members of the Government, and by the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic), and also of the number of petitions presented to the House of Commons praying for the prohibition of the sale of liquors during the War?
The Government, after full consideration, are not prepared to adopt the suggestion of my hon. Friend.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in view of the expressed desire to ascertain the opinion of Scotland, the conference was not a very simple method of ascertaining the view of the people of Scotland?
It was a simple method of ascertaining the view of those who signed, but it was not a simple method of definitely ascertaining the opinion of the country.
Are not resolutions from public bodies received in this House?
Yes; but I said that I did not think that they could be taken as a definite indication of the opinion of Scotland.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the feeling of non-smokers is that tobacco is not good?
What would the right hon. Gentleman regard as an effective expression of opinion in Scotland?
63.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether all classes of beer are included in the restrictions as to output; and, if not, will he say what classes of beer are exempt; whether Bass's pale ale is at present exempt from any restrictions; and, if so, will he state for what reason?
The existing restrictions as to output apply to all classes of beer brewed by a brewer for sale, and therefore include the beer referred to in the last part of the question.
Government Decisions (Publication)
47.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the conflicting official and semi-official statements regarding the Government's decisions and intentions, he will institute a plan whereby from one to two columns in each of the leading daily papers shall be reserved for the publication of a daily official communique issued by the Government, so that people of all parties may be put in possession of the actual intentions and decisions of the Government?
The Government are not prepared to adopt the hon. Member's suggestion.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that opinion in regard to the War and the importance of any action or decision of the Government is largely governed by the particular paper a man may happen to buy?
I am not aware of that, but I am aware of what is the general view taken.
Is it not essential that every person in these islands should know the intentions and decisions of the Government regarding this War?
Is not the opinion of the Government itself formed by the newspapers?
Motor Spirit (Race Meetings)
48.
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that hundreds of motor ears are being used by persons attending race meetings, and, in view of the consumption of petrol, will he take means to bring racecourses and their precincts within the meaning of the Acts relating to betting in public places; and will he take means to prevent the publication of betting information?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. The general question of allowing or suppressing race meetings is one which has been dealt with by the Board of Trade. I do not think anything would be gained by adopting the indirect method of discouraging them which is suggested by the hon. Member.
Reconstruction Committee
54.
asked the Prime Minister why the Reconstruction Committee has been reconstructed; and why no representative of Ireland finds a seat upon it?
It was decided when the present Government was formed that some modification in the composition of the Reconstruction Committee was necessary, and this was carried out. As regards the second part of the question, it is proposed to add an Irish representative.
Lifeboat Sheds (Income Tax)
55.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the buildings of the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, including those round the coast in which the life boats are housed, which are part of the necessary paraphernalia of the lifeboat station, are assessed to property tax; whether he is aware that the work of the institution, if it were not supported by voluntary contributions, would become the duty of the Board of Trade under the terms of the Merchant Shipping Acts and consequently a charge on the national funds; and whether, having regard to the position of the Lifeboat Institution in the United Kingdom, he will now forego the demand for the tax in respect of premises occupied by the institution for the purposes of its national and humanitarian work or whether he will take power in the next Finance Act to give the institution the same exemption as is given to hospitals?
I am informed by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue that the number of cases in which Income Tax assessments have been made on lifeboat sheds is small, and that the amount of duty paid is insignificant. My hon. Friend will remember that a Committee of Inquiry into the Income Tax in all its bearings has been promised as one of the first steps to be taken immediately after the termination of the War. Among the matters which will engage the attention of the Committee will undoubtedly be the scope of the exemption in favour of charities, and obviously it is undesirable to anticipate without a general investigation the conclusions at which the Committee will arrive.
Railway Facilities (Jurymen)
56.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the hardship entailed on jurymen who are compelled in the discharge of their public duties to travel considerable distances by train at their own expense to attend the Assizes; and whether, pending the removal of this hardship, he will give directions that jurymen travelling by train to attend the Assizes shall be exempted from payment of the 50 per cent. increase recently placed on railway fares?
The claims of jurymen for exemption from the recent increase in railway fares have been considered by the Board of Trade, but, in present circumstances, it has not been found practicable to make a concession in their favour.
May I ask the hon. Gentleman, in conjunction with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to reconsider this question, and to bear in mind that these men are compelled to travel for public duty?
I am aware of the fact, but I hope my hon. and learned Friend will not press me further on the subject to-day.
Central Prisoners Of War Committee
57.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Government is aware that there is a general desire in this House and in the country for an inquiry into the organisation and methods of the Central Prisoners of War Committee; and what steps he proposes to take to set up a Select Committee of this House, or a Joint Select Committee of both Houses of Parliament, to inquire into the matter?
As the House is aware, an informal but representative Joint Committee of both Houses is about to undertake an inquiry into this subject. Under the circumstances, I do not think it advisable to move for the appointment of a Select Committee, but I shall be prepared to reconsider the matter if the informal Committee find that they are unable to conduct their inquiry efficiently for lack of the necessary powers.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at a meeting of members interested in this subject a resolution was passed in favour of a Select Committee with only one dissentient?
Yes; but I am not sure that the other proposal was not before it. In any case, this has been adopted, and I think we must see how it works.
Will the right hon. Gentleman secure the co-operation of the War Office, the Foreign Office, and the Post Office, and for the payment of expenses?
I will consider that.
Will this Committee have any power to summon witnesses before it and take any steps necessary?
Obviously that is the point of my hon. and gallant Friend's question. I have already said that I hoped there would be no difficulty on that score. If difficulty is found we will reconsider the constitution of the Committee.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give us the names of the Committee appointed?
The Committee will be constituted as follows:
- Lord MacDonnell.
- The hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Bentham).
- The hon. Member for North Mayo (Mr. Daniel Boyle).
- Lord Muir-Mackenzie.
- The hon. Member for Great Yarmouth (Mr. Fell).
- The hon. Member for East Leeds (Mr. O'Grady).
- Lord Gainford.
Tobacco
61.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the tobacco now in stock in the United Kingdom is chiefly the product of America, and that to prohibit import at present would shut out the crop now due to come home from Nyasaland and other British Colonies?
The import of tobacco, the produce or manufacture of his Majesty's Dominions, is at present permitted under general licences.
Paper Restriction Order, 1917
62.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if the Royal Commission on Paper have received a letter, dated 14th March, 1917, from the London Association for Protection of Trade, Limited, with regard to the Paper Restriction Order, 1917, and offering to send a deputation to the Commission to express the views of its members; and, if so, why the Royal Commission has not even acknowledged a communication from so representative a body of business men?
I understand from the Commission that the letter was duly acknowledged on its receipt. The questions to which it refers are at present under the consideration of my Department.
Electric Supply
67.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will take steps to ensure that the interests of the electric lighting companies concerned are represented on the new Electric Supply Committee by the appointment of two members intimately connected with the working of electric lighting supply?
The interests of electric supply companies are fully represented on the Committee.
By whom?
By my right hon. Friend the President, by the hon. Member for Forfarshire (Mr. Falconer), Mr. Devonshire and Mr. Merz.
Is he aware that Mr. Devonshire represents the tramways, and will he take it from me that there is not a single one representing the electric lighting companies, and will he put on two members who do?
I must follow the advice given to me.
Will the hon. Gentleman look into the question again?
68.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the draft of the Report of the Committee on Electrical Trade after the War, which was appointed in April, 1916 (Sir C. A. Parsons, chairman), has been before the Department,; and whether the Report will be published and when?
I have not yet received this Report.
J H Wagner And Company
71.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether J. H. Wagner, the proprietor of J. H. Wagner and Company, of Watling Street, is an unnaturalised German; whether two months ago he received a petition asking that this business should be wound up, signed by fifty-two of the leading firms in the textile trade of the City of London; and what steps he proposes to take in the matter?
The answer to the first and second inquiries contained in the hon. Member's question is in the affirmative. The case was considered both in July last and again last month by the Board's Advisory Committee, to whom the Board remitted the petition referred to. The Committee, after bearing the gentleman who drew up the petition, reported that they still regarded the case as one in which "special reasons" rendered it inexpedient to make an Order under Section 1 of the Trading With the Enemy Amendment Act, 1916. I may say that in reporting to the Board the Committee stated that the business in Alsace with which Wagner had been connected up to the outbreak of war was predominantly French, that Wagner had been settled in this country for thirty years, that they were satisfied that he is wholly British in his sympathies and interests, and that the business which he is conducting is beneficial to British industry. The Board have accepted the recommendation of the Advisory Committee, reaffirmed as it has been after a second careful investigation, but are maintaining supervision of the business.
Having regard to the very high position of the signatories of the petition, did the Advisory Committee see any of them before coming to this decision?
I stated in my reply that the gentlemen who drew up the petition were heard.
Water Transport Facilities (Canals)
73 and 74.
asked the Secretary to the Board of Trade (l) whether the Canal Control Committee has only control over the independent canals and not those owned by the railway companies; whether the policy of the railway companies to discourage traffic on all canals which they control is to be allowed to persist in view of the need of using all means of transport available in the country to the fullest capacity; seeing that all traffic has ceased on the Kennet and Avon Canal for the past three months, although there is congestion at Avonmouth and goods are waiting there needed by farmers and others throughout the 90 miles traversed by the canal, will he say what action he proposes to take; and (2) whether the railway-owned canals are under the control of the Railway Executive; whether he is aware that the Kennet and Avon Canal has for some months ceased to carry any traffic at all, that, owing to shortage of rolling-stock, farmers in Wiltshire and South Berks have difficulty in obtaining such things as seed corn and oil for tractors, and that the absence of canal transport facilities is having a prejudicial effect upon food production throughout the 90 miles of agricultural country traversed by this canal; and whether he can take any steps to ensure at once the resumption of traffic on the canal and communication direct between Reading and Avonmouth to its full capacity?
The Canal Control Committee and the Railway Executive Committee have control respectively over the leading independent canals and the railway-owned canals. Both Committees are fully alive to the importance, in present circumstances, of utilising canal transport to the greatest extent possible, and are working in co-operation to that end. As regards the Kennet and Avon Canal, I understand that the canal is, and has been, available for any traffic which carriers are in a position to bring upon it. The Great Western Railway Company are not themselves carriers on the canal.
Does the hon. Gentleman not think there would be a better chance of utilising to the full the facilities for water transport in this country if we had one authority now, instead of two committees to deal with it; and secondly, in reference to that part of his answer where he said the Kennet and Avon Canal was available for traffic, is he aware that as a matter of fact, although in time of peace it carried a very considerable traffic indeed, the statement in my question is perfectly true and that for three months it has carried none at all?
I am aware of the importance of water transport, and I think there are indications that the Department are taking steps in order to develop it. In regard to the Kennet and Avon Canal, I understand that the question is one of labour shortage, to remedy which attempts are being made.
Military Service
Ploughmen
75.
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been called to the action of the recruiting officer at Perth and of tribunals in Perthshire in calling up ploughmen to the Colours for 5th April proximo; and, if so, will he, as President of the Scottish Board of Agriculture, take steps to prevent this interference with the growing of the food of the people?
I am informed that no such general action has been taken in the district referred to by my hon. and learned Friend, but if he will send me information as to any specific instances, I will make inquiries.
Air Services
Viscount Cowdray And Members Or Parliament
(by Private Notice) asked the Prime Minister whether the Chairman of the Air Board has expressed his willingness to meet the Members of this House for the purpose of debating the present position of our Air Services; whether these proceedings will be private, and whether the chairman is prepared to receive written questions prior to such a meeting, that he may be enabled to answer them at the meeting; and also when is it proposed that this meeting should take place, and where it will be held?
The Prime Minister has asked me to answer this question. The President of the Air Board has been asked by the hon. Member for Brentford to meet a body of Members of both Houses, known as the Parliamentary Air Committee, who desire to lay their views before him. Lord Cowdray has consented to do so. The date of the meeting is not fixed, but it will take place in the House of Commons after the Easter Adjournment. The procedure will be quite informal.
Do we understand that that meeting is to be open to any Member of this House?
It depends upon whether he is a member of the Air Committee, I imagine.
Will the Chairman of the Air Board follow the example of the Food Controller, and invite Members generally to come?
One reason why they have not all been invited is that he was not asked to do so; if he were asked to do it, I have no doubt my Noble Friend would find no difficulty whatever in meeting any Member who may desire to meet him.
As a member of the Air Committee of this House, may I protest against such a meeting being restricted to members of the Committee?
The hon. Member must ask a question, not make a statement.
My Noble Friend was asked by the Chairman of the Parliamentary Air Committee whether he would meet the members of the Committee, and he said "Yes," and it is difficult to see what reason there can be for objecting to that.
Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman give an undertaking that every Member of this House shall receive an invitation?
Is not Lord Cowdray a public official, and if he comes to the House of Commons as a public official can any meeting be restricted to the members of the Air Committee, or must it not of very necessity be extended to all Members of the House?
I think other Members can come if they want.
Will my hon. and gallant Friend put it much more clearly than that? If no doubt other people can come, will he not say plainly that this meeting is open to all Members of the House?
I thought I had said so. If they want to come they can come.
May I make a personal explanation? As Chairman of the Parliamentary Air Committee, with the sanction of the executive committee, I applied to Lord Cowdray to ask whether he would meet us to discuss certain points. I had no authority whatever to do so on behalf of the House generally, and it was purely a private meeting with a certain number of members who had banded themselves together. I should not have presumed to ask any Minister to meet the Members of the House generally.
Military Operations In Palestine
May I ask the Government to tell us whether there is any news from the seat of war?
I am very glad to be able to read the following communiqué which we have received from the Commander-in-Chief in Egypt:
"We advanced our troops a distance of fifteen miles from Rafa to Wadi Ghuzzeh (five miles south of Gaza) to cover construction of railway. On the 26th and 27th we were heavily engaged in this neighbourhood with a force of about 20,000 of the enemy. We inflicted very heavy losses on him and have taken 900 prisoners, including the General Commanding and whole Divisional Staff of the 53rd Turkish Division. This figure includes four Austrian officers and thirty-two Austrian and German other ranks. We have also captured two Austrian 4 2 howitzers. All troops behaved splendidly, especially troops of Welsh. Kent, Sussex, Hereford, Middlesex and Surrey Regiments, and the Anzac and Yeomanry mounted troops."
Old Age Pensions
7.
asked the Chief Secretary if he will explain on what basis of calculation the Local Government Board refused to grant an additional allowance of 2s. 6d. to an old age pensioner named James Casey, of Loughatorick, Loughrea; is he aware that this man is eighty years of age, has no home of his own, and is sheltered as an act of charity by an old age pensioner; and whether, seeing that the Loughrea pension sub-committee, having all the facts before them, on two different occasions awarded him the additional allowance of 2s. 6d., the Local Government Board will dispatch an officer to investigate the facts on the spot?
As the hon. Member was informed by the Local Government Board on the 12th instant, the case of James Casey, of Loughatorick Moyglass, Loughrea, has again been under consideration, but as the circumstances have not altered since the previous decision that he was not entitled to the additional allowance of 2s. 6d. a week the Board could not entertain the appeal.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give me the basis on which the calculation is made?
The hon. Member will not expect me to have in my mind the domestic circumstances of James Casey. Certain rules are applied in these cases. I made inquiry of the Local Government Board, and I am satisfied that they have taken the same measures in Casey's case as in all others.
22.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he can state upon what grounds the Local Government Board disallowed an increase of 2s, 6d. per week of the old age pension of Thomas Hoban, Ellison Street, Castlebar, county Mayo, which was awarded to him by Castlebar (No. 1) Pension Sub-committee on being satisfied that he and his wife, who is not an old age pensioner, were suffering special hardship owing to the War; and can he give details of the pension officer's estimate of Hoban's income representing it as exceeding 19s. 6d. per week?
The Local Government Board disallowed the application of Thomas Hoban and his wife for the additional allowances on the ground that the pensioner's means exceeded 19s. 6d. a week.
I asked for details of the 1916 income because I am convinced there is nothing of the kind.
I will send them to the hon. Member.
Education (Ireland)
8.
asked the Chief Secretary if he has received a resolution from the Irish National Teachers' Organisation demanding, in view of the proposed large additional Grant to be devoted to English education, an equivalent Grant for Irish primary education; and whether he intends taking any action in the matter?
I have seen a copy of the resolution referred to, and the Board of National Education inform me that resolutions dealing with the matter have been passed by a number of branches of the teachers' organisation. As I stated on Monday in answer to the hon. Member for West Kerry, the other matters mentioned in the question are engaging the attention of the Government.
Dublin Metropolitan Police
10.
asked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that Superintendent Dunne, of the Dublin Metropolitan Police, theatened a police constable on the 29th November last that if he, the police constable, had not a higher record of summons, he would transfer him to another division as a punishment; whether he will state why constables should be induced by threats of this nature to summon people without cause in the city of Dublin so as to keep up a high standard of crime; will he state if it is a portion of a policeman's duty to manufacture charges against the citizens of Dublin; and, if so, with what object?
On or about the date mentioned the Chief Superintendent had occasion to reprimand a constable for negligence, and to warn him that unless his duty was more efficiently performed he might have to be removed to another division. I am satisfied that the suggestion of a desire on the part of superior officers of police in Dublin to manufacture groundless charges is absolutely unfounded.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the same threat was made to stop the salary of another policeman because he would not accept 3s. less than his ordinary pay, and the next day he was sent for and paid the amount?
I do not know how the hon. Member assumes I should be aware of these suggested facts unless I have some source of inspiration. They do not arise out of the question
I do assume that when investigation is made about a case of this nature, all the facts should be submitted to the right hon. Gentleman in order that he may answer questions fully in the House.
11.
asked the Chief Secretary if it is according to the regulations of the Dublin Metropolitan Police for a superintendent to ask a sergeant into a public-house and therein conspire to arrange for the dismissal of constables over whom he has no control; if he is aware that the constables referred to were dismissed, while the superintendent and sergeant who broke regulations are both retained in their position; is he aware that the constables dismissed were Catholics and the officers retained were non-Catholics; and will he state what action he proposes to take?
The Chief Commissioner is not aware of any instance in which a superintendent of the Dublin Metropolitan Police entered a public-house with a sergeant for such a purpose. Such a proceeding would be contrary to the regulations, and the Chief Commissioner will be prepared to make a full investigation if the facts are placed before him.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the facts have been placed before the Chief Commissioner and that a sergeant was sent direct to appeal that this question should not be put down?
12.
asked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that Superintendent Flynn at a parade of constables in his division, held on the 10th February, told the men that they were getting their money by false pretence and threatened that if the did not bring more summonses he would report them and have them transferred as a punishment; is he aware that some men protested that they could not bring summonses against innocent people, and that the superintendent further stated that there were only three summonses for January, 1917, as compared with twenty-one for the previous January; and will he intimate whether it is the duty of the Dublin Metropolitan Police to manufacture crime.?
I have made inquiry, and am satisfied that the allegations in the question are without foundation.
13.
asked the Chief Secretary how many constables are engaged in protecting Major Price, the number of plain-clothes constables that follow him, and the number convenient to his residence; is he aware that Major Price has written to the Chief Commissioner of the Dublin Metropolitan police regarding explosions near his house at 109, North Circular Road, Dublin; and is he aware that the inspector of the district after investigation discovered that the explosions in question were merely squibs thrown by children?
I can give no information as to police arrangements made for the safety of individuals. I had not heard of the explosion of squibs which the hon. Member mentions. Such explosions are not the subject of official reports.
Why has a constable been brought up on complaint of Major Price for this very incident?
I have no knowledge of that
14.
asked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that a person was arrested at the end of April last for having illegally in her possession at Cathedral Street, Dublin, property supposed to be looted from city shops, and that the said person was to come up on remand on the 3rd May last, and that the said person did not appear, and has never been brought to trial; if he is aware that the reason why the person charged was not brought to trial was that the property disappeared from Store Street Police Station; and will he state if any inquiry has taken place as to the person responsible for the custody of the property or any effort made to recover the property, and, if so, with what result?
Certain charges of the nature suggested were made at the end of April last. If the hon. Member will inform me of the name of the woman to whom he refers, and the nature of the looted property, I will have inquiry made.
Will the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to hold a sworn inquiry into the incident and I will produce the constable and sergeant who made the charge, name and address of the person who was charged, the date upon which they were to appear and all the other particulars?
I have inquired. I do not know whether I should have authority to hold a sworn inquiry.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider it most unfair that sergeants and constables, who have been threatened that they will be transferred or means will be taken for their dismissal, to have this inquiry unless they get an: indemnity for giving information?
If improper means are used to stifle inquiry I shall use the powers of the Police Act and see that an effective inquiry is made.
Could not the right hon. Gentleman easily ascertain whether the person was charged or not? Surely there is an entry in the records of the police that the charge was made.
Killeshin Coalfields (Ireland)
18.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the mining expert of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) has visited the Killeshin coalfields, Queen's County and Carlow; if he has furnished any report thereon; and whether, with a view to the development of these coalfields, he will consider the advisability of advising that a thorough survey of these fields should be made by Government experts with a view to ascertaining their productiveness and commercial value?
The Economic Geologist of the Department of Agriculture visited the district referred to in 1912. Pits hitherto sunk in the district have been abandoned as unremunerative, and it is not possible to investigate fully without heavy expenditure. The records of the Geological Survey indicate that the seams are thin. A re-survey of the Leinster coalfield, including the district in question, by the Geological Survey is in progress.
Vaccination Acts (Prosecution, Crumlin, County Antrim)
25.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he is aware that the Rev. S. Evans Bowen, the Manse, Crumlin, county Antrim, was prosecuted under the Vaccination Acts for not having his baby vaccinated, and fined; if he is aware that the reverend gentleman was subsequently prosecuted under the Public Health Act for the same offence and ordered to have his child vaccinated; if he is aware that he was prosecuted and fined for disobeying that order and actually conveyed to Belfast Gaol for refusing to pay the fine, which was paid by friends after his arrival at the gaol; if he is aware that the reverend gentleman has reecived a notice from the Antrim guardians that he is to be again prosecuted for the same offence; and if he can state whether it is his intention to take steps to relieve the Rev. Mr. Bowen from the persistent persecution to which he is being subjected for merely exercising a privilege at present enjoyed by English, Scottish, and Welsh parents?
This matter is being dealt with by the local authorities in the discharge of their statutory duties. So far as I know I have no dispensing power in such a case.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say why this Act of Parliament is enforced against this clergyman living in the North-East of Ulster against Ms will?
Most Acts of Parliament are enforced upon defaulters against the will of the defaulters.
Irish Mines (Control And Inspection)
33.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether, having regard to the great extent of the mineral rights now vested in the Government through the Estates Commissioners by reason of sales of estates under the Irish Land Purchase Acts, he will consider the advisability of having steps taken to have Ireland constituted a separate division apart from Lancashire and North Wales for the purposes of the Coal Mines Act, 1911, and the Metalliferous Mines Regulation Acts, and to have the control and inspection of Irish mines transferred from the Home Office, Whitehall, to the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction in Ireland?
The extent of the mining operations mentioned in the question does not seem at present to warrant a change such as is suggested.
Is not the best means of carrying out the request made by the hon. and learned Gentleman to set up an Irish Parliament, and when that Parliament is set up it will have control of the mines as well as of several other things.
Letterkenny And Burtonport Extension Railway
65.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is now prepared to grant an inquiry into the working of the Lough Swilly Railway Company in relation to the Letterkenny and Burtonport Extension?
I am not yet in a position to add to the replies given to previous questions on this subject.
May I ask if the hon. Gentleman will do so before the House rises, as it is nearly a fortnight since the matter was brought up?
The Report has not yet come in. Some delay has been caused owing to the illness of the expert who prosecuted the inquiry.
If the Report is not received until after the House rises, will he kindly communicate with me or my hon. Friend in the matter as soon as he has come to a decision?
Certainly.
Public Petitions Committee
First Report brought up, and read; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Bills Presented
MUNITIONS or WAR BILL,—"to extend and amend the Munitions of War Acts, 1915 and 1916,"presented by Mr. KELLA-WAY; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 26.]
BILLETING OF CIVILIANS BILL,—"to make provision for the billeting of persons engaged on work of national importance for the purposes of the present War," presented by Mr. KELLAWAY; supported by Dr. Addison, Sir Laming Wortihington Evans, Mr. John Hodge, Mr. Henry Forster, and Mr. Prothere; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 27.]
National Insurance (Part I Amendment)
BILL,—"to amend the enactments relating to National Health Insurance with respect to persons suffering from disablement in consequence of the present War," presented by Sir EDWIN CORNWALL; supported by Mr. Barnes and Mr. Baldwin; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 28.]
Criminal Law Amendment Bill
Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee A.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Tuesday, 17th April, and to be printed. [Bill 25.]
Message From The Lords
That they have agreed to,—
Army (Annual) Bill, without Amendment.
Orders Of The Day
Business Of The House
May I ask whether the Government have any other information to give us as to the course of business between now and the Recess?
I have been informed that there is some opposition to our parting with the Bill for the Prolongation of the Life of Parliament before Easter. As in any case it could not go through the House of Lords before the Recess, I think it would be a waste of time to proceed with it now. That will leave to-morrow free for the further stages of the Military Service Bill which I am introducing to-day. If this Bill is finished to-morrow, then on Monday we shall take the Education Estimates, and the House will adjourn on Tuesday. In any case, I hope the Motion for the Adjournment will be made on Tuesday.
Will any of the other Bills be taken to-morrow?
If there is time we shall take some.
For how long shall we adjourn? [HON. MEMBERS: "That was stated yesterday."]
I said yesterday that we should adjourn for a fortnight.
Ordered, "That the Proceedings on other Government Business have precedence this day of the Business of Supply."—[Mr. Bonar Law.]I beg to move, "That this House do sit To-morrow."
May I ask whether it is intended to move the suspension of the Five o'Clock Rule to-morrow?
Yes, Sir; I think it will be for the convenience of the House to do so. There will, however, be no intention of sitting late.
Is it intended to take any other Bills to-morrow?
My hon. Friend has asked me whether we propose to-morrow to take other Bills than the one I have stated. There are some small Bills which, if the House is willing, might be taken. The suspension of the Rule, however, will only apply to the Military Service (Review of Exceptions Bill).
May I inquire about the Courts (Emergency Powers) Bill? If it is not taken this week, it cannot be taken next.
That is one of the Bills which we shall get through if we can, but we shall net delay the Adjournment, because we do not think it is of "that importance.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolved, "That this House do sit Tomorrow."—[Mr. Bonar Law.]
Military Service (Review Of Exceptions) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
In the opinion of the Government this Bill is an absolute necessity in view of the present military situation. As the House well knows, one of the greatest difficulties with which each Government has had to cope ever since the outbreak of the War has been the proper apportionment of our man-power between the fighting forces in the field and the essential needs at home. We have had many Debates on this subject. It has always happened that one set of people thought only of the Army, and the other thought of the needs at home. The need, however, of combining the two has always been kept in view by the responsible Government of the day, whatever it was. That difficulty has never been greater than it is at the present moment. The House knows that it is impossible for our military authorities to make the best use of the material placed at their disposal unless they can know in advance, not only the number of men who will be obtained, but the rate at which they will be obtained, so that they can make their arrangements on that basis. Arrangements were definitely made last August which, it was hoped, would give the military authorities all the men necessary for this campaign on the scale on which it had been arranged. That antici- pation has not been fulfilled. It has not been fulfilled for the simple reason that as the War proceeded the Cabinet found that the needs at home were for the moment so pressing that those of the Army in the field had for the moment to give way. The main ground for this change is well known to the House. It is due to the increasing severity of the submarine menace. In consequence of that the Army has not got the men which it expected to get from agriculture, and the Government, and I think everyone in the House and in the country, recognises that food production has, for the moment, become one of our most pressing needs. In the same way the men who were expected to be obtained front various works and shipyards have not been forthcoming, because, for the same reason, we had come to the conclusion that it was absolutely necessary that every ship which could be put into the water should be launched, and that no man could be spared for that purpose. As a result of what has happened in that case, I think it is right to tell the House, so that it may understand the exact position, that the recruits obtained since the beginning of this year have fallen short of the number estimated by no less a figure than 100,000 men. Everyone will realise, in view of the definite arrangements made not only by our own Commander-in-Chief, but in conjunction with our Allies in France, that such a falling off must be serious, and might easily be more than serious. I am glad to say, however, that in some considerable degree that shortage has been made good in the method which has often been urged in this House, and of which everyone will approve—that is to say, there has been a change in the men employed in the Army itself. 4.0 P.M. Those fit for service have been sent to the front, and the work behind the lines is being done to a much greater extent than ever before by men not fit to go into the fighting line. It may be said that that ought to have been done long ago. Perhaps, like many other things, it could have been done sooner; but we have always kept in view the pressure which from the beginning has rested on the War Office in all arrangements of this kind. I myself know, that my attention was called two years ago to the number of clerks of military capacity who were doing clerical work. A most serious effort has been made by the military authorities to remedy that defect to whatever extent it can be remedied. General Lawson has been appointed by Field-Marshal Sir Douglas Haig for the express purpose of getting to the front all the men we can raise, and, in addition to the relief which has come from men, as the House knows, the services of women are also being utilised there, too. They will be able to assist our Army not only in such work as cooking, but in clerical work. From these sources considerable relief has been obtained for the shortage of which I have spoken. In spite of this, however, shortage exists. The Army authorities feel that unless in some way the shortage can be made good our prospects in the coming campaign will be seriously jeopardised. I do not pretend that the Bill I am introducing to-day will meet all the needs of the situation. The Government still believe that it is possible to obtain for the front the men who are required to carry out the fighting on a scale which was anticipated, and that it is a question of organisation at home. We cannot make definite plans until we know to what extent the voluntary National Service scheme will enable more men to be obtained for the Army, but in the meantime this step is absolutely necessary. The Bill which I am now introducing will enable the military authorities to deal with 1,000,000 men, and their estimate is that at least 100,000 recruits will be forthcoming from this class within the next three months. I need not say to the House that the Government would not willingly bring forward a Bill of this kind. We thoroughly recognise the hardship which is involved, but, though there is hardship, I do not believe it is unfair, and we must recognise that the stage which the War has now reached, when every one of the belligerents-is putting forth greater efforts than have ever been put forth before, when the result of the War may depend on the extent of the efforts made at this time, under those circumstances it must be felt it is not unfair to make this demand. After all, it comes to this: It is a principle which, I am sure, would be adopted by everyone in this House—at least, everyone who thinks we are engaged in a just War, and is determined to see it brought to a successful conclusion—that every man who is fit to go into the fighting line should be there unless his services are required for national needs of equal importance at home. That must be the principle. It is, as I have said, very hard in many cases. No one would not try to avoid it if he could. It is very hard that in many cases the call should be made on these men, but in a long War like this standards have changed, and must continually change. Men who in the earlier stages of the War were rejected would now be taken, and there are many other reasons which show that there is a very considerable number of men who can be made available without unfairness. The House knows that, in addition to the varying standards of which I have spoken there were special reasons in this country which made a considerable number of men escape, or not come under the Military Service Acts, who ought to have come under them. For one thing, during part of the recruiting campaign, under the name of the Lord Derby Scheme, an immense number of men came forward at one time. There were, I believe, on one day as many as 300,000. In these circumstances medical examination was not as thorough as it ought to have been if there had been more time. That is shown on the other side of the picture, when many men were taken where it was a distinct disadvantage that they should have been taken. They were taken on account of being passed improperly by medical boards. There is a large number of men of this class, and it is not unfair that they should be subjected again to examination. In addition to that, there is a considerable number of men, I am sorry to say, who have succeeded in evading service by something like fraud. Well, in their case there will be no special sympathy on the part of anyone in this House. But the real justification for this measure, in the opinion of the Government, is that we must judge of a man's fitness now and not by any condition in which he was six months or a year ago. If his conditions have changed, if his state of health has changed, and made it right and possible that he could fitly serve the country in the field, his services should be made available for that purpose. I have said there is great hardship in this. I can imagine no case much harder than that of a man, for instance, who had served his country, had been wounded, had gone back to work, and was under the impression that he had done his share and would not be called upon again. That is true, but you have to consider, not only the needs, but the question of fairness to our troops who are fighting, and while there is that hard- ship, it is only right to say that in this Bill the Government have done everything they can, subject to the needs of the nation, to make it as light as possible. In such a case as I have mentioned no man will be called up in less than a year from the time when he was discharged with wounds. Of course, the real hardship is the absence of finality. A man who is medically rejected cannot feel that he can set himself to work at home with any certainty. It is impossible to give finality. No one can tell what the necessities of this War may be, but the Government have done what they could. Anyone rejected will not be called up again for six months, and I think I may add this, that the Army Council have had their lesson with regard to medical examination. It is not in their interests either to take men who are not fit for service, or to employ our very limited medical staff in constantly examining men who will never be fit for service. This will be taken into account, and the House may be assured that, so far as it is possible, no unnecessary inconvenience will be imposed on the men liable under this Bill.How about those recently rejected in the last months or weeks?
As I say, when they are called up they will not be called up again for six months. "They will not be called up again if rejected within the last few weeks, unless there is some ground to suppose there was some mistake in the medical rejection.
Invalided out?
I am just going to deal with that case. Among the hardships, it seems to me that a very great one is that of an officer or a non-commissioned officer who has been discharged from the Army, and becomes liable again to be called back to the Service, except in the rank which he left. In the Bill it is stated that it is the intention to restore them to those ranks, but it has been found necessary to give a dispensing power to the Army Council. I dare say the House will think that does not give a man protection, but they have got to consider the other side of the question. It may be that there were men who, perhaps by accident, or by want of proper forethought, obtained commissions. Now, to give a commission to a man who is not fit for it not only endangers the whole strength of the Army, but really risks the lives of the men placed under them. It is, therefore, necessary to make these restrictions. But when I read the Bill I spoke to the Army authorities specially on this point, and I can say it is their intention to exercise this dispensing power with the utmost care, and with the distinct purpose of restoring every man where they possibly can to the rank previously occupied. Another class who are affected by this Bill, and who are not. specially under medical test, are those who have been rejected on other grounds. In this case I do not think there is special hardship. What is meant here is to have power to deal with men, for instance, who made application to a particular corps—that is to say, a corps like the Artists—early in the War, and were not accepted for that corps, and they have been treated as if they had been rejected. It is an open question whether that is a legal rejection, but, in any case, to try to carry it out would be difficult if the point were raised, and it is put in this Bill clearly that all such cases are to be subject now to military service.
I would like to call the attention of the House to this fact: A Bill on precisely the same lines was carried by the French Government last week. It would not be right for me to go into the numbers of the male population of France who have been called to the Colours, but the House knows that it is a much larger proportion than is the case in this country, and the fact that the French have found it necessary to adopt this same measure is an indication of what I have already said, that everyone of the belligerents is putting forth his full fighting force to-day, and that it is necessary for us to do the same. I have spoken of the hardships to individuals, but we have got to consider the other side of the question. We have got to consider, not only the needs of the nation in this hour, but the question of fairness to our troops who are fighting at the front now. If you look at it from the point of view of our necessities, the position is clear to everyone. I am thankful to say that one reason this falling off in recruits has not had the disastrous results it might have had hitherto is that the casualties so far this year have been less than were anticipated; but we all know—there is hardly a Member in this House who does not know it with apprehension—that the time of great fighting, with terrible casualties, is in front of us. It may well happen that the whole value of this year's campaign may depend on our being able to drive home any success which we may be fortunate enough to achieve, and it might well be that the falling off of the anticipated recruits for the Army might have the difference between really almost decisive results and a victory which would have nothing like the same effect. But, in addition to this, we have, as I say, to consider the men who are fighting in France. If it is a question of hardship, they have had their share. From their point of view, every chance of shortening the War is a duty which we owe to them, and, in addition, everyone acquainted with the Army knows that the moment the numbers of battalions begin to run down, and cannot be replaced, the feeling of confidence in the whole Army, from the Commander-in-Chief to the private, is weakened. At this moment the moral of our troops in France is splendid. They have the confidence which they have had from the beginning of the War, but they have it now more than ever that they are far more than a match for the enemy. Well, it is our duty to let them see that they can count on support from home, that they are not going to be left in the lurch, that their numbers, if it can be done, are to be kept up to the full extent. I have only dealt with general considerations in regard to this Bill, but I assure the House that, in the opinion of the Government, it is necessary to take this step. I notice that there is an Amendment down—I do not think it deals directly with this Bill—in regard to the question of pensions. I should like to say this about that: I would hardly think that it ought to affect, in any case, our decision now, but the subject has been very freely discussed in this House. Many opportunities have been given for dealing with it, and, though it is quite true that, in putting in an Amendment of that kind, anyone can count on the sympathy, and sometimes the support, not only of the House of Commons but of the country, it is only fair to say that that sympathy is not more strongly felt by the House than it is by this Government, and the Government which preceded it. So far as I am personally concerned, the first speech I made after the War broke out was to the effect that these men had the first claim upon us. I have never changed that view, and since I have occupied my present position, as the House knows, measures dealing with these men, involving immense sums of money, have gone through. As Chancellor of the Exchequer I have never admitted the view— and I do not think anyone in my place would have admitted it—that it was necessary to try and cut down expenses. I have looked upon this matter in precisely the same way as I should have done if I had been a Minister in any other office. The House should consider this question as a whole, and if they do so they will come to the conclusion, I think, that not only is this country treating these men much more generously than they have ever been treated in the world before, which is not enough, but that they are treating them as generously as our duty to the country in other directions enables us to treat them. I sincerely trust the House will enable us to get this Bill, which we must have before Easter, without undue delay.I beg to move, to leave out from the word "That," to the end of the Question, in order to add instead thereof the words, "this House declines to proceed with the Second Reading of the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Bill until the Government is prepared to accept full responsibility in regard to providing pensions for such men as, having been accepted for service by the Army medical authorities, are subsequently discharged from service owing to disability not caused by their own willful misconduct."
The right hon. Gentleman has made a statement which I agree is serious in its import because it means that the military situation is such that in order-to deal with the demands made apparently by the military we are to be forced to pass a Bill through this House in the hope that out of a million men who have already been rejected, most of them for medical reasons, we may get 100,000 medically unfit men for any offensive which may take place in the near future. I think the House of Commons ought to consider that statement very seriously. If it is true, as my right hon. Friend has said, that that is the situation, it seems to me that, instead of discussing facts and figures, this Government in this House ought to be reviewing policy, and instead of seeking to come to this country, which has now reached the stage in which out of a million men who have been medically rejected, we expect to get 100,000 for the Army, we should consider, for example, whether we should not give up the Salonika Expedition altogether and release those men on the Western front, and thus relieve the shipping which is being absorbed there, and we should do this in order that this country may be enabled to sustain itself during the critical months of the War that are to come. I suggest that when we are parting for the Easter Recess that this Government, which after all was formed in order that things should be done speedily and vigorously, should not have come down to the House after four months and ask for this at the last moment of the Session when they must have known how their demands were increasing. I hope that before we agree to this Bill we shall consider it very carefully. This question of the medically rejected men has a very long history. There has been a series of pledges made both by the previous and the present Administration which forms a very formidable catalogue. Pledges have been made from time to time with regard to these men. The present and the past Government kept none of those pledges. They broke them all. Every pledge that was given to every man who volunteered or was taken compulsorily into the Army has been broken by either one or the other of the Coalition Governments. The catalogue of these pledges includes many with which this House is familiar. It goes back to the famous Lord Derby's group scheme by which men were induced to join the Army, and since they accepted the pledge given by Lord Derby they have gone through considerable vicissitudes of experience until now presumably this Bill will fulfil Lord Derby's pledge by putting the attested men in the same position as the conscripts under the Military Service Acts. Lord Derby said in those early days that if a man's certificate was signed by a doctor that man would be exempt from any further medical examination. I have here in my hand a series of some twenty separate pledges that have been made to the men who have been recruited into the Army from time to time, every one of which has been broken. It may be that owing to the War we have lost all our moral sense, but some of us, at any rate, would be better pleased if some attempt were made to keep the pledges which have been given to these men. I want to say that when the Leader of the House of Commons comes down to this House and asks us to provide him with another 100,000 men out of the 1,000,000 men who have already been rejected, he ought to come with clean hands. The present Government actually has within its four corners men of military age. These men who have been in uniform since the outbreak of this War, who have been trained to drill men and discipline and lead men, they have been combed out of the Army for presumably work of greater national importance on the Treasury Bench, work which could be done by many other hon. Members of this House who are above military age, but who are not deficient in ability. Therefore the Leader of the House of Commons has no moral right to come down to this House and ask his fellow-citizens, men who have already been rejected as medically unfit, and are therefore in a worse physical category than some of the Ministers who sit in this Government, and ask them to make up the hundred thousand of which he is short. I think that ought to be said, and it applies not only to the Government, but to many of the people employed by the Government. [An Hoy. MEMBER: "And the late Government."] I think as a matter of fact, that both Governments broke every pledge they ever made on these points. While you have got efficient men of military age in many of your offices doing work which could be equally well done by women, I think these men should be given a chance to go into the Army. I have been present at some military tribunals when your military representative has told men who have not a physical leg to stand upon so far as their health is concerned, that they were doing work which any woman or girl could do. Any woman or any girl could do the work of some of these military representatives on the tribunals, who not only get promotion, but higher pay. They are men of military age with military experience behind them, and they should be doing work in the fighting line on the West or the East fronts. Therefore, I say to the Leader of the House, if he is going to ask hon. Members and the country to respond to this appeal, let him clean out his own Government first, and then let him come here and say, having done that, he is forced on account of the military situation to make a further demand on the medically unfit who are left in this country. I have put down an Amendment, which reads as follows: "That this House declines to proceed with the Second Reading of the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Bill until the Government is prepared to accept full responsibility in regard to providing pensions for such men as, having been accepted for service by the Army medical authorities, are subsequently discharged from service owing to disability not caused by their own willful misconduct." I am ready to admit that what the Leader of the House has said with regard to what we have done in the matter of pensions is, to a large extent, true. We have endeavoured to provide a scale of pensions which is adequate to the needs of the men who have served in the Army, but my right hon. Friend is wrong when he assumes that we have met the case of these men, because he must know perfectly well that already over 100,000 men have been discharged from the Army who were accepted by Army medical doctors as fit. That number is increasing. It is being concealed at the present moment because those men are not being discharged from the Army, but they are being discharged into Class W Reserve. Does the House of Commons realise that there are soldiers in Class W Reserve who have lost an eye or a leg in actual fighting in this War, and who have been discharged into Class W, and because they are there they have no pay, their wives and children have no separate allowances, and they are unable to draw the pension for the eye or leg so long as they are retained in Class W? Employers to whom they go to ask for work refrain from employing them because of the provisions of the Workmen's Compensation Act. I say that 100,000 is not a true figure, because it includes all the men in Class W Reserve. I assert that that figure is getting nearer to 250,000 than 100,000. Those men have this provision made to them now. They can only get a gratuity. I want to put this to my right hon. Friend, because he is not without sympathy for the men who are fighting. I do not think anybody will allege against the Leader of the House that he is not prepared and ready to meet the situation. Let me put this direct question to him. He has stood at that box this afternoon and appealed to us who represent those men in this House to pass an Act of Parliament that may compel them to come into the Army. The road into the Army is through the examination of an Army doctor. Will my right hon. Friend assure me that, if he gets this power from the House of Commons, if these men pass the Army doctor as a result of this Bill passing, that there will be no humbug about gratuities, and that he will see to it, as Leader of this House, that they will be made eligible for pensions? That is a fair offer to my right hon. Friend. I believe that this is a just War, and I am prepared to do anything to see it through, but I want to look in the face the men whom we ask to take up this responsibility. If we in this House are going to put this immense power into the hands of the military authorities, then do not let us give that power without knowing what we are giving. Do not let us be put off, as we were put off before, by the Minister of Pensions suggesting that these men can be disposed of. The phrase is bad enough. Think of the nation trying to dispose of the men who have been broken in the ranks of the Army ! Will my right hon. Friend get up and pledge himself and his Government that these men, if they are taken by the Army doctors as fit to fight, will be considered fit for pensions, and that he will see that they are pensioned? It may be that those of us who are not inside the Government do not know all the facts. It may be that these men are required for very essential reasons. I do not think anybody would grudge giving what is necessary if we are assured that there is some prospect of success. But whether there is a prospect of success or not, do not let us give our own constituents away to the Army without conserving their rights. That is surely a small thing to ask. If my right hon. Friend gets his Bill, will he stand by the men for whom he is asking? I see that the late Prime Minister is also in the House. He had a great many similar questions through his fingers. He had to come to the House and ask for men. I make the same appeal to him, because, after all, he represents a very considerable body of opinion in the country and in the House, and he enjoys the respect of both. Will the leaders of opinion on the Government Bench, backed by the leaders of opinion on the Opposition Bench, play the fair game with the men that they are asking to come into the Army? Will you, if the men pass the military doctor this time, as the result of this Bill, make it your purpose and your resolve and your determination to see that they are eligible for pensions and are not disposed of by any small sums in the form of gratuities? If victory is worth having, it is worth paying for. The little extra that is required is nothing to this country, but the result that may accrue is a great thing to this country. You are making an appeal to a body of men who prima facia are not physically fit, men who must go into the Army even in spite of their not being physically fit, and all this Amendment asks is that the House will see to it, if they make this bargain, that the bargain is kept with the men, that they are provided with pensions, and that this abominable system of disposing of them by a scale of gratuities which may be a great deal less than £150 is got rid of.I desire to second the Amendment which has just been proposed by my hon. Friend for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge). Candidly, I must confess that I have not been greatly impressed either by the reasons or by the promises which have come from the Front Bench to-day. We have had the same arguments and the same promises on every occasion upon which an extension of the Military Service Acts has been before this House. We have always been told that these men who have been rejected would not be called upon to present themselves again for medical examination. It is only fair to quote the exact words. On 16th May, 1916, when this same question was under discussion on the Military Service (No. 2) Act, and when criticisms very similar to those made by my hon. Friend were put before the representative of the Government, the right hon. Gentleman the present Colonial Secretary (Mr. Long), who was then in charge of the Bill, said:
We must remember that was not the first pledge, because in the first Act there was a definite pledge that men who had been medically rejected since 1st August, 1915, would not be asked to undergo medical re-examination. But the late President of the Local Government Board had to face the breaking of a pledge, and he said," Well, it is true I have to come before you in a white sheet—I have to ask you to amend the Act which we only passed three months ago—but you may take it that we have reached finality." My right hon. Friend, however, is fair enough to say now that there is no finality. Apparently, we have to go on month after month re-examining and resifting out these men, going lower and lower in the scale of health and physical capacity, and he expects the Members of this House and the people of the country to believe that this is a way of winning the War. There are many other alternatives. One way of getting 250,000 men would be by coming away from Salonika. That is one alternative. Another thing, it would relieve the most awkward and critical situation which this country has to face in regard to shipping. The right hon. Gentleman brought in the submarine question. He told us that this Bill was due to the submarine question. We could not take men from the land or men from the shipbuilding yards, and therefore we must take the medically unfit. There is a better way than that. You have an Army of 250,000 men hung up at Salonika, suffering from a bad climate, with a sickness rate unexampled in any other theatre of war, and achieving no military result, and with these men there you come to this House and you ask us to fake 100,000 medically unfit men in order to win the War. There are other alternatives. Why not be honest and raise the age and take physically fit men over forty-one? You do not need to eat your words to do that. There has been no pledge given up to the present not to raise the age. Why cannot you do that? Why you should go on harrying men whose lives for more than twelve months have been made a burden to them? We all know that this is not the only pledge that is involved. My right hon. Friend referred to what had occurred under the Derby scheme. Lord Derby promised that the attested men were in every respect to have equal rights with the conscripts. The conscripts were safeguarded from re-examination under the Act if they were not called up before 1st September, but the Army Council has for months now been calling attested men under the Derby scheme, although they have been medically rejected. Now, in order to carry out the pledge, the Government withdraw the privilege which was given to the conscripts. They say, "We will put you all in an equally unfavourable position." In order to redeem the promise made to the attested men under the Derby scheme, they are going to eat their pledge to the conscript under the Military Service Act. The argument which has been put to the House by my hon. and learned Friend in respect of this question of treatment in regard to pensions is unanswerable. Is your medical examination to be a real medical examination or is to be a sham? This House ought not to part with this Bill until it knows. We know for a fact that for months now the medical examination has been an absolute sham. The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Ealing (Mr. Nield) put down a Motion on going into Committee of Supply on the Army Estimates on this question of medical re-examination. Unfortunately, he had to state his case in a very thin House, but for a whole hour he cited case after case which had come before him as chairman of a tribunal. He is not a person who would naturally criticise the administration of the Army authorities. He is a man who is interested in getting men into the Army in a fair way, but every one of his cases he had personally investigated, and it was the most serious indictment that has ever been brought against any branch of Army administration, or war administration, since the beginning of the War. It proved conclusively that in any number of cases the medical men who are examining recruits for the Army are not giving anything which can be described fairly as a medical examination at all. They are taking consumptives; they are taking men suffering from heart disease; they are taking epileptics. All these have been taken and poured into the Army. We know that 100,000 of them have been actually discharged already. Almost another 100,000 have been taken and have not yet been discharged. Some of them are in Class W Reserve. There is little care exercised in the matter of classification, and when a man is once in the. Army you find him being exchanged from one category to another without any apparent reason. It is true that they go before the doctor, but only in the very rarest of cases does the doctor take the slightest trouble to examine the man. He may be put in Class A on the most cursory examination. There has never been any answer. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary has told us that the per- centage of mistakes is very small. He took an arbitrary period of seven weeks, and found that the percentage was something like.7. It is easy to get a figure for an arbitrary period, but you cannot dispose of your 100,000 actually discharged, you cannot dispose of the men in your hospitals to-day by making up a percentage figure. All these things prove conclusively that your existing medical re-examination is a sham and a farce, that as a result of it you are getting men into the Army who are being discharged without any pension and men who will never be able to resume their civilian occupations—men who, in the long run, must be thrown upon the Poor Law, and who, as an hon. Friend who is very familiar with these things reminds me, will be thrown upon the approved societies under the Insurance Act, and we all know how difficult is the position of those approved societies in the matter of finance—many of them being practically bankrupt. I hope the House will agree that there are two questions which must receive a categorical answer. I hope that some of the right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Opposition Bench will take an interest in this, because, after all, these pledges were given by them. My right hon. Friend the ex-Prime Minister was responsible for the pledge given by the present Colonial Secretary that these men were never to be harried again. If that pledge is to be broken, surely my right hon. Friend is going to take some interest in seeing that the people to whom the pledge was given are protected. I therefore make an appeal to him to support us in obtaining a fair reply to the two questions we now ask—first, Is the medical examination of the men affected by this Bill to be a real examination, and is it such an examination as will secure that men who are passed for Class A are really fit for Class A, and if they are passed for other categories that they are really fit for the work in those categories? The second question is, If the Government's medical men pass these men into these categories, and it turns out that their health is such that they cannot discharge the work laid upon them in those categories, and they have to be discharged unfit from the Army, not owing to any misconduct of their own, will the Government undertake responsibility in the matter of pensions for those men? Those are the two questions to which I make bold to say the House ought to demand an answer from the Government. I maintain that if the House docs not; obtain an answer to those questions—a straight answer, an answer without any equivocation—this House will not be discharging its duty to the country."Those who are rejected again will never again be harried and called upon to undergo a fresh medical examination."— OFFICIAL REPORT. 16th May, 1916, col. 1455, Vol. LXXXII.]
I should like to say one or two words about military representatives. I have met a good number of them, and the first remark I would make is that many of them are over military age, and receive no pay at all for the services they are rendering. With regard to doctors, there are hard cases, and, speaking generally, in these cases care is taken by doctors in their medical examination. I am not going to say anything about broken pledges or promises which have not been fulfilled. The point before the House to-day is what is the best thing to be done now. Is this Bill a good Bill, having regard to the circumstances of the day? I understood an hon. Member to say that this Bill is intended to get men fit to fight. That is a mistaken idea. It does not follow, because men are taken into the Army, that they must be fit to go into the fighting line. There are labour units at home and labour units abroad. There is sedentary work at home and sedentary work abroad. It does not follow, therefore, that men who are found to be medically fit on re-examination are going to be put into the fighting line at all. If they can be put into other branches and release other men for the fighting line, it is important that they should go in. With regard to the medically rejected men, some of them were examined as far back as August, 1915. Suppose that a man was medically examined eighteen months ago and, perhaps, rejected at that time because he had met with an accident at football. During the whole of that time he has not been re-examined and has not been liable for service in the Army. The standard of rejection which obtained then is altogether different from the standard obtaining now. This has been going on for many months. The War Office has been saying that the medical rejects who had been attested were in the Army Reserve and that the medical rejects who were not attested were not in the Army Reserve. You have had these inequalities. A considerable amount of grumbling has been going on with regard to the pink form which ought to have been sent before the 1st September, 1916, if the medical rejects were to be reexamined. In some districts the pink forms were sent out, but in others they were not. Consequently there has been a lot of inequalities throughout the country.
There is one further point with regard to the Bill upon which I desire some information. I want to know if the Bill deals with rejected men, not merely medically rejected men, but all rejected men? The House knows that a number of men at one time went forward, but if they had any strain of, say, German blood or foreign blood in them, they were rejected straight away. The mayors of East London at a deputation last week, were pressing home the fact that these alien rejects—that is, unnaturalised Britishers who had alien blood in them—were taking the places of Britishers who were sent abroad. There is the strongest feeling throughout the United Kingdom on that point. I want to know whether those men who were rejected in the early stages of the War-not medically rejected, but rejected simply because of some foregn blood in them—are bound to come up for further examination and can be put into the Army? If they can, it is important for these people that they should know it. An hon. Member of this House, speaking in the smoking room the other evening— there are many sensible speeches made in the smoking room, and they are all short —said to me: "If I had a friend in my house, and I gave him the right of asylum, and if the house catches fire and he remains sitting in the drawing-room reading a book and will not assist to put out the fire, there are only two things to be done: either he must come out of the house or must assist in putting out the "fire." There are a number of people in this country of that kind. One wants to know whether they are going to help to put the fire out, and, through this Bill, be brought into the Army. One has great sympathy with the Amendment of the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge). With regard to pensions, if the men are put into the fighting line, I should certainly support him, but if the men are put to sedentary or labour work merely, then the Pension Act already passed by this House meets the case. In conclusion, I am greatly impressed by the remark of the right hon. Gentleman in introducing the Bill that there cannot be finality until the War is over. Of course, there cannot be finality.Rising for the first time to address this House, I can claim some slight acquaintance with this subject, because I had considerable experience, not only in connection with the Derby scheme, but, first of all, as a military representative before one of the most important tribunals in Scotland—that of the city of Edinburgh, and subsequently as chairman of the Appeal Tribunal for the county of Perth. I support this Bill on two grounds, first of all, because there is a need for it. We ordinary Members of the House cannot judge of what the military requirements are. We have not, quite properly, the information. The Government have the information. The Secretary of State for War has the information, and he says that further men are necessary, and that the small influx of young men who are coming to be of military age and otherwise is not sufficient, and that we must get more men. Therefore the need is plain. In the second place, I say that there are men to be got. We have not such information as the Government possesses as to the sources from which men can be obtained or the number of men to be got under this scheme, but with full knowledge they say that there is a large number of men who, under this scheme, can very well be brought into the Army. For that reason we ought to pass this Bill. I have, in my experience, seen a good deal of rejections and the grounds for rejections. Although, of course, my knowledge is small compared with that of the members of the Government and of the Secretary of State for War, I have seen enough to convince mo that there is a large number of men who hold certificates of rejection who could very well be in the Army. When the medical officers began this work there was no experience on this scale, or anything like this scale. At that time, and before that time, the idea was one of selection of the very best men you could get. We have got past all that. If we can get a serviceable man in we must have him, although ho may not come up to pre-war standards. At that time there were certain rules which were somewhat slavishly adhered to. I will venture to give the House two illustrations of such cases which were brought before me by way of complaint, addressed to me in Perthshire as sheriff of the county by men who were rejected and who regarded their rejection not as a favour, but who protested against not being taken into the Army. One of them wrote me as follows:
5.0 P.M. The other case was that of a man who wrote to me saying that he was a professional cricketer, that he had done the hat trick, middle stump each time, but was rejected for defective eyesight. I brought these and other cases before a very distinguished doctor who was examining the recruits locally. He told me that the difficulty was that there were certain rules. He quite agreed that these men, and many others who he had rejected, ought to be in the Army, but he said that if he sent those men up he would be told that he did not know his business, because he had broken some technical old rule about qualifications. There is a large number of men of that kind in the country who might very well be in the Army. I have no sympathy with those, I confess, who regard the certificate of their own disability, or of some defect of their own, as a privilege which exempts hem from military service. I have not been long a Member of this House—a month or two—but I have heard many Debates and listened to thousands of questions, and many of these Debates and questions have been directed to urging the Government to reconsider classes and cases, and to let men off from a particular class or from the Army because new circumstances have emerged, or some mistake has been committed. Now that should not operate all on one side. It is our duty to look at both sides of the question. The Army is just as much entitled to consideration and to have its case re-examined as are those who want to get out of the Army, or who desire special privileges in respect of their services. No doubt there are hard cases, but in my profession there is an old saying that hard cases make bad law. If we are to have regard to hard cases in this matter, I think we shall find that hard cases make skeleton divisions. We must have regard to urgent military necessities. There are many hard cases of men who started in business and undertook obligations before the War began, relying upon the assurance that peace was not likely to be disturbed, and they would never be called upon to perform military service. These men have had to break their engagements and to give up their employment, and when there are hundreds and thousands of such cases, I suggest we need not be so very tender of those who, at present, hold certificates of exemption. I am sorry I appeared to intervene between the House and the late Prime Minister. I noticed that the two hon. Members "who have spoken against this Bill are both Scotsmen. We have had another Scottish voice here today; we have a message from General Murray, a Scot who is with the men in the field, and we all hope that before long we shall hear that General Murray has done what one of the greatest English soldiers—Richard Coeur de Lion—failed to do—has taken Jerusalem. I venture to think the people of Scotland are determined to support their men in the trenches and to support the great leaders of whom they are so proud—Field-Marshal Haig and General Murray—and, on behalf of the men in the trenches, I hope this House without hesitation will pass this Bill."I have been engaged for the last ten years in such light work as tree-felling, saw-milling, road-making, quarrying and ploughing, and I have never been off work a day, but I am rejected because one of my legs is one-eighth of an inch longer than the other, while white-fingered, narrow-chested youths, who have been engaged in the arduous work of tying-up parcels all their lives, are passed lit,"
I am very glad that the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Johnston) has had an opportunity of making a speech which induces us to congratulate ourselves on his accession to our ranks. He pointed out that the Debate so far has been entirely taken part in by Scotsmen, and, I am reminded, one Welshman. I am not a Scotsman, but I am a Scottish Member. I quite agree with the hon. and learned Gentleman, and I think it will be the experience of everybody to whatever nationality he may belong, there is hardly any limit to the eccentricities in the way both of of exemptions and inclusions which doctors and tribunals and the other authorities concerned have committed themselves to in the course of the very difficult task of combing out, as it is called, the population. So long as human judgment is fallible and variable I am afraid that cases of that kind will be and must be an inevitable occurrence. My object in rising—I will not enter into any arguments on the general principle—is to make an appeal to the right hon. Gentleman and the Government to give some little explanation which might very much shorten and simplify our Debate. My right hon. Friend has spoken of 100,000 men as the number to whom this Bill may probably apply. I assume they are all men who have been medically rejected as unfit for Army service.
Substantially.
Rejected on medical grounds as unfit for military service. I think the House will be glad to be assured—and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be in a position to give that assurance—that these 100,000 men are not in any substantial proportion occupied in equally useful work in other forms of service.
Of course, they are under precisely the same conditions as the men who came under the first Military Service Acts. They have a right to go before the tribunals and to be treated in every respect, from that point of view, as the others.
That may very much qualify the number of 100,000 men.
We have taken that into consideration.
Does not that imply that men employed on other equally important service—agricultural or munitions or any other service, should not be brought back into the Army under this Bill or any other Bill. On that, I think, we are absolutely agreed. The point on which I want to make an appeal to the right hon. Gentleman is the one raised by the two hon. Members who respectively moved and seconded the Amendment. It is assumed, of course, that these men who are going to be re-examined are men who hitherto have been exempted on medical grounds. But some of them may be men who, having been originally passed and gone into the Army, have been discharged as unfit for service. I do not want to dogmatise, or even to express any conjectional opinion, but, so far as I have been able to familiarise myself with the fact, I am not at all sure that an equal number of men have not been passed into the Army who ought to have been rejected to those who have been rejected, but ought to have been passed. I think it is a very disputable point as to where the balance lies. We have all of us had brought to our notice, in our own constituencies or in other ways, numbers of cases of men who have passed the medical examination, and after a very short time of service—sometimes only a few days—have proved themselves manifestly unfit to serve their country in a military capacity.; That aspect of the case ought not to be left out of account in dealing with a measure of this kind. Take the case which has been put by the two hon. Gentlemen of men who, having been previously rejected ore medical grounds, now upon re-examination stand the test and are sent into the Army, and then prove, as is not unlikely to be the case, to be really unfit for military service. Is not the appeal which has been made that they should be dealt with generously in the matter of pensions, are appeal which ought to commend itself to the House of Commons. I think if my right hon. Friend, or those who represent the War Office, were in a position to give some assurance on that point, it would very much facilitate the passing of this measure. No one wishes to protect men who have been rejected on imperfect evidence and escaped. Every man in the House will agree it is perfectly right that they should be re-examined and subjected again to the doctor's test, and perhaps a fuller examination. If they pass that test and qualify for military service, they should go. If my right hon. Friend can give an assurance on the point raised in this Amendement, it may be the passage of this Bill through the House will be enormously facilitated.
With the permission of the House, may I point out to my right hon. Friend how this case stands, if he is not familiar with it? The position, as I understand it, is this: Anyone who has been taken into the Army is entitled to a pension if, on his discharge, it is found either that his ill-health is due to service in the Army or that his previous ill-health had been aggravated by it. The only case where a pension is not given is the kind of case which has been explained over and over again by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Pensions: it is that of men who have by mistake been taken into the Army and who are perfectly unfit. In many cases they have never attended drills and have done no work. What my hon. Friends ask is that these men should get the same kind of pensions as if they had gone through actual service.
No, I do not ask that.
The men we are dealing with now are men already rejected, and we think the military authorities should look on that as some kind of warning. In spite of their rejection they are now to be re-examined and to be sent into military service.
I need not say that any case which is put by my right hon. Friend, who has had experience of precisely the same character, is one which deserves attention from the Government, and will get it. Is not this the position —I put it to my right hon. Friend? Assume a mistake is made of the same kind again, then are we going to give them the same kind of pension? I admit, in dealing with these matters, it ought to be possible to be more careful in the examination, and what I will promise to do—I cannot answer at once without communication to the War Office—I will ask whether it is possible to make the medical examination so perfect as to run no risks of this danger.
The point which my right hon. Friend has just mentioned is the point on which I desire to address one or two words to the House. It is a very serious request to make to the House—to pass a Bill of this kind. There are few, if any, Members of the House who would be unwilling to grant it on the statement made by my right hon. Friend, but if we do pass this Bill it is imperative that every possible attempt should be made to avoid mistakes by the medical authorities who do the re-examination, and to avoid the difficulties which have been pointed out by the late Prime Minister and by my two hon. Friends in submitting this Amendment. What I venture to put to the House is this, that, without any reflection being cast on the medical authorities of the Army in the past, there can be no doubt they have been greatly overworked and have in many cases made great mistakes. These ought to be prevented in the arrangements to be made by the War Office for re-examination, if this Bill is to be carried with public acquiescence and if the dangers which lurk in it are to be avoided. I would like to make one suggestion which I made last autumn to Lord Derby and to the War Office. The tribunal of which I am a member found the greatest difficulty in dealing with the very large num- ber of men who had not been medically examined or re-examined under the existing law. It was very desirable, in the interests of the Army, that this examination should take place as quickly and as thoroughly as possible. When we came to inquire how it was that case after case that came before us had to be adjourned, sometimes indefinitely, for want of medical examination, we found that it was because there really was not a large enough staff of military medical authorities to deal with the cases promptly.
The suggestion was then made that it might be possible to get the services of civil medical practitioners to a much greater extent than had been done in the past—not, of course, to allow medical men to decide on behalf of the Army cases arising immediately near their own homes or within range of their practice, but to join with military doctors in forming a board, say, ten, fifteen, or twenty miles away from where they are carrying on their daily practice. In that way you would get what you have not got up to now. You would get in many cases the larger and more varied experience of the civilian doctor as to many kinds of disease, and you would have the representative of the Army Medical Service, who knows the Army conditions, and who knows what the points are that ought to be specially looked for when you are deciding about taking men into the Army. What many of us regret is that the War Office, which braced itself so well to so gigantic a task, still does not snow enough recognition of the fact that you may have competence in professional men although they are not wearing khaki, and that you ought to bring to aid those who are wearing khaki those who have had medical experience as civilian practitioners. If only the War Office could divest itself of the notion that everything must be done by someone who is holding a permanent commission under the King, and that nothing can be done by people outside, however wide their experience or however acute their intelligence, if they would put aside that departmental predisposition-all Government Departments are bound of necessity to have this predisposition— this problem would be much more easily solved. I can say, from my own experience in the early months of this year, that it was very difficult indeed to attach proper weight to medical certificates issued in November and December because of the rush, crush, hurry, and congestion of the work under which these gentlemen had to do their duty. When this Bill has become law, when thousands of men come again before tribunals asking them to decide their fate in the light of a new medical examination it is of the greatest consequence that there should foe no ground whatever for thinking that this re-examination has been done perfunctorily or without adequate variety of knowledge and skill. I am appealing to my hon. Friend in no spirit of hostility, on the contrary I am doing all I can do as a mere layman to help the Army in the War, but from the point of view of one who sits on tribunals principally and has a good deal to do with recruiting all through the War, I ask him to arrange that the War Office should seek the help—it may be for one or two days in the week—of experienced local practitioners, both in order to get rid of the congestion and in order to have a greater variety of experience and, therefore, a greater weight of judgment. I have worked it out for one English county on the financial side, and it was a mere flea-bite compared with the money which is now being quite properly, but lavishly, spent in a thousand directions. There will be a great feeling, on the part of thousands of persons, of regret and anxiety at the harassment which is involved in the carrying out of this Act of Parliament. We want to minimise that as much as possible, and it is to minimise that that I make these suggestions. I need hardly say I desire to associate myself with what has fallen from my hon. Friend in regard to the need of considering the pensions question in relation to these exceptional cases. I am quite sure the appeal made by my right hon. Friend (Mr. Asquith) will be carefully attended to by the Government. We have on the one hand to be sure that this Bill is necessary— after the statement of the Leader of the House I cannot take the responsibility of saying it is not necessary—but if it be necessary, it is equally necessary to make it work as smoothly, as fairly, and with as much weight and sense of justice as we can possibly get into its administration. That can only be done if there is a great improvement in the discharge of the duties of medical re-examination, not because those who have tried it before have not done their best, but because many were inexperienced and many were overworked. Help that is available has not yet been sought to anything like the extent which might have been done. If that is done it will be the duty of us all not only to carry out this Act of Parliament, but to try and make our fellow citizens understand that the need of the country calls for it and it does not mean that there is an intention, on the part either of the Government of this House or of the country, to have greater harshness in administration, but where men are really qualified to serve in the Army who, at this crisis, can desire that any of them should refrain from doing so?I do not know if the hon. Gentleman knows that almost a mobilisation of the medical men of this country has taken place, and really the doctors who actually belong to the old Army Medical Department are absolutely in a minority. Most of the medical men now who examine recruits and who are doing duty at the front are men who have joined temporarily for service during the War.
I am aware of that fact, and I hope I said nothing derogatory to them or implying ignorance of the fact that many of them have joined the Army since. My point is that I worked out, in one English county, the possibility of doctors who are at home giving one or two mornings a week to this particular work.
I did not mean that the hon. Gentleman said a word which was derogatory, only he was proposing to call in the advice of civil practitoners and I was attempting to explain that so many civil practitioners were employed already that they were doing the greater part of the work of examination. It is perfectly true that in the great stress and rush that there was for recruits in the early stages of the War many men were passed into the Army who certainly had no place there, and ought, for medical reasons, not to serve in the ranks. But at the same time, when the great rush of recruits was on, many men were very cursorily examined, and I am perfectly convinced, from my own knowledge of cases which have come before me, that men have been refused as not being fit for the Army who were perfectly capable of serving in the ranks. Many of these men would not be required to serve in the ranks or in the trenches at all. There are many positions which have to be filled at what we call the back of the front, where life is certainly very different from what it is in the trenches. Perhaps I, from the nature of the duties I have to perform in my constant visits to the front, can tell the House as well as any individual of the vital necessity there is for men in order to fill the vacancies and gaps which must occur in a war of this description. Our position in France is an extremely good one, but it is vital that the Commander-in-Chief, if his plans are to be carried out, should have this constant and continual supply of men, and that the ranks of the divisions which are facing the enemy should be kept full. Hon. Members do not perhaps know that the flower of the Germany Army and the bulk of the divisions of the German Army are facing the front held by the British Army. We all know that the French have fought magnificently. They have proved themselves to be true Allies and true Frenchmen. No one could wish for anything more gallant than the defence the French have made at various positions of the line, and especially at Verdun, and it was simply by French tenacity and bravery that the Germans were defeated at that point. There are many other things connected with this campaign which must prove to every individual in the country that men are first and foremost vitally necessary for the conduct of this campaign. The hon. Member (Mr. Hogge) and my hon. Friend who seconded the Amendment suggested means by which men could be got. They spoke of Salonika, and asked why we do not draw 250,000 men from there. It is a very dangerous thing for any hon. Member to lay down what men are to be drawn from any part of the front. Even with the knowledge at my disposal, which is possibly greater than that of those two hon. Members, I should be very sorry to take the responsibility of ordering a withdrawal of the troops from Salonika or from any other portion of the front. There are a great many things to be considered. Perhaps those hon. Members do not know that, at any rate, the good that our force is doing there, if not positive, is negative good. It is containing a very portion of the enemy forces which might be very well and very usefully employed elsewhere. So I think, as has always been my opinion, that we had better leave the strategy of this campaign to the Chief of the Imperial General Staff and his advisers.
If it had been so left we should not have been at Salonika.
There are a good many reasons other than military which keep a force at Salonika or elsewhere, and, after all, when this War is over, doubtless the hon. Member will be perfectly satisfied with the reasons which have placed the force there. I, and many others who are in a far better position than I am to express an opinion about that, would rejoice if they felt they could get those 250,000 men from that part of the world. When we discuss the question of men I see there is very great and deep interest being shown by those who occupy places below the Gangway, and I think I might equally suggest that we ought to make an appeal to Ireland to provide some of the many young men who are to be found in Irish towns at this moment. Ireland has been left immune from the operations of the Military Service Act. It is not my intention to discuss that, but in view of the splendid way in which the Irish regiments have fought in this campaign, and the brilliancy with which they have fought, I think at this time of the country's peril Ireland might very usefully add a considerable portion of the 100,000 or 200,000 men we have been talking about. However, that seems to be a question that is left in the hands of Ireland to do as they please.
No; if it had been left in our hands we would have sent you another 100,000.
I am very pleased to hear the hon. Member say so, and I would remind him that it is not too late to send them now, and if they will send them they will be very welcome.
You want to provoke me into telling you why they are not sent.
I do not want to provoke the hon. Member. I am not anxious to go into the question of why you should have Home Rule or why you do not get Home Rule. I only say that the men are wanted, and in my opinion every man who can be spared and is fit to fight for his country should be got; and now is the time that he has got to do it. I have no hesitation in saying that. After the War is over and when peace is declared, then the representatives of Ireland will have to stand up and will have to tell us why they have not got as equal a right as any other portion of the British Dominions to speak as regards peace negotiations. I feel that there are many young men in Ireland who think that it is an insult to them that they have not been called to the Colours in order to fight for their native land. That is a question that undoubtedly will be settled after this War is over. I heard the remarks made by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) when he addressed himself to the Leader of the House as regards men in Government offices. I am not definitely certain, but I am led to believe that the civilians employed in Government offices have been combed out as far as it is humanly possible they can be. I believe that only those who are absolutely essential are still holding their places in the Government offices, and I feel convinced that the Leader of the House would not allow men of the proper military age who are fit and able to fight to be retained in sedentary posts where they are doing nothing except pen work for their country. The few months that are now coming on will be the vital time of the War. We have got a Commander-in-Chief in France in whom the Army reposes its trust and confidence, and I am certain that this great War will be brought to a successful issue. At the same time I would impress upon this House the necessity, before everything else, of providing the men to fill up our ranks. Then, and by these means alone, shall we be able to bring the Germans to their knees and to enforce a peace on terms which would suit our country and our Allies, and once and for all stamp out the military despotism of the German nation.
After the opening remarks of the Leader of the House I think anyone who would oppose this Bill must be a man of great courage, and after what we have learned from the hon. and gallant Member (Colonel Burn) one feels further impressed with the desirability of doing all that one possibly can at the earliest moment to find the necessary men. But in saying that I think we are entitled to seek from the Minister in charge of the Bill some information as to the attitude of the War Office. It has been said and is well known that a great many men have received exemptions who certainly were not medically unfit. On the other hand, it is well known that a great many men have been taken into the Army who were totally unfit from the medical point of view. I want to ask the hon. Member (Mr. Mac- pherson) to give us some explanation or some assurance that the medical examination which these men are to undergo under this Bill shall be an examination of a really reliable character. I expect every hon. Member has his attention drawn day by day to cases, in consequence of the overworked condition of the doctors, of men utterly unsuited being taken into the Army. Let me give a case which was recently brought under my notice. I know the man and I know the full facts. The man had been rejected as totally unfit for any military service. He was anxious to serve his country and tried to get employment in the Remount Department, but was turned out on each occasion as being a weakling and unfit for service. That man was called up a few weeks ago for re-examination. He told me that seventy men were re-examined by what was called a travelling board, and practically every one of them was passed into the Army. This man presented himself afterwards at 48 hours' notice, and he was taken, and told he would be very useful for the tanks. What is the result? Within one week that man was in hospital. He remained in hospital something like eight weeks, and has now been rejected from the Army. Similar cases are occurring frequently, and I think we are justified in asking that the re-examination of those who have been rejected shall be an examination reliable in every shape and form. I hope that the Minister in charge of the Bill will be prepared to consider favourably an Amendment I propose to put down, to the effect that in extreme cases a man shall have the right to be examined by a board, and, if he desires, one member of that board shall be his own medical adviser.
I am as anxious as the Minister in charge of the Bill to get every physically fit man. into the Army, but, on the other hand, I say it is a mistake to increase your numbers unless you are increasing them with men who are efficient and who will be some good to this country in the War. I want also to impress upon the Government that they must make up their minds that every man they take into the Army after his re-examination, no matter what may be the cause of his illness, shall be entitled to pension. I heard the Leader of the House say that these men when they were invalided out were entitled to pensions, but words were quoted in which it is claimed that they must prove that their illness has been aggravated by military service. So long as the men are the servants of the State the responsibility should rest on the Government, just as the responsibility rests on any other employer. If the Government in any way impairs or injures the health of a man, no question of aggravation should arise in the minds of the people who have to decide whether or not that man is entitled to a pension. There is another point which, perhaps, cannot be met by this Bill, but in regard to which I would like to have some assurance. A large number of young men or boys have left the secondary schools and public schools probably at an earlier age than usual with the object of going to Woolwich and Sandhurst and then to obtain a commission in the Army. Many of these young men and boys have been rejected as medically unfit. I want the Government to take into consideration the position of these boys and to say that under the new system of lowering the medical scale for admission into the Army, these boys shall not have their interests prejudiced by the fact that they were rejected on an earlier occasion. I think that is a fair request to make, and I sincerely hope that it will be taken into consideration. I admit that perhaps it is impossible for my hon. Friend to do anything in the Bill to make the position of these boys equivalent to what it was prior to their being rejected, but if he will give the House an assurance it will be a source of great gratification to a large number of people.I think my hon. Friend (Mr. Hogge) should be congratulated on having raised an issue of very wide and far-reaching importance, and also on the reply which has been given to him. As I understand it, the Government have given a pledge.
Hear, hear. A pledge!
They have given a pledge to the late Prime Minister that in future there is to be better medical examination than has taken place before, and that if, after recruits are obtained, they become medically unfit, their claim is to be more favourably considered in the future than in the past.
Is that really so?
I am trying to ascertain. I would like to know exactly where we stand, and if there is any change in the position of affairs as the result of to-day's. Debate? My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House must have meant something: when he said that he was going to see that there was better medical examination. I do not think he need worry himself there about making any promise which ought not to be made, because the whole House knows that the medical examination has been very unsatisfactory in the past. Let us not blame it entirely on the doctors. The Under-Secretary for War will know that some time ago a circular was issued to the doctors, informing them that they were not to take too much heed of the condition of the recruit at the time, whether they were accepting him or rejecting him, but they were to come to their decision in regard to how they thought that recruit would be in six months' or a year's time. I thought that was a very dangerous circular. It was one that obviously said to the doctors, "Pass the recruit; let him take his luck, and see what happens." I have a copy of the circular, so that I am speaking of what I know.
I should like-to see it
I have not the circular here at the moment, but I can get it. I think it was sent in February. My hon. Friend need not shake his head.
I have not seen it.
There are many-things at the War Office that my hon. Friend does not see. I only plead for the doctors that we must not place the whole responsibility upon them. They have been rushed to a large extent by those who had to get the men necessary to carry on the War, the result has been extreme pressure upon the doctors, and it is quite true, we all know, that men have been passed really without any examination at all. As far as the future is concerned, we must have something more than we have had to-day from the Leader of the House. I do not think it is good enough to say we are going to have better examination, and I do not think it is good enough to say that if the men turn out medically unfit their ease is going to be favourably considered. I see my right hon. Friend the Pensions Minister in his place. I know if he were sitting with us below the Gangway what a splendid case he would make out on behalf of the claims put forward by my hon. Friend, what a splendid case he would put up if he agreed with it, which I naturally assume he would do, and no man is more anxious to do the right thing by these men than he is! Therefore I direct his attention to this: Is it not fair, if these men have been medically rejected in the past, if, in face of definite pledges given to some of them that they would never be examined again, they are now to be examined again—they are to be more carefully examined than ever before—they are passed through, and they have got to sell their businesses, into which, on the faith of a decision of the Government, they put their money, is it not fair if, after being passed as fit, they are, through no fault of their own, declared medically unfit, that they should be entitled to something more than a gratuity, that they should be entitled to a pension?
The question was raised as to whether you would treat these men in that position as well as the men who had been in the trenches. I do not think that that is quite fair. If a man is accepted by the Army, he is bound to go where the Army sends him. If by a mere accident he is not in the trenches, that is no fault of his. After being accepted by the doctors, he ought to be in the same position, to all intents and purposes, as the man who is ordered into the trenches. Therefore I say that there is a case which is far more important than has existed up to the present time for saying that the position should be more clearly defined than it has been. He ought not to trust to a gratuity in the future. He ought to have a pension. Make it as small as you consider necessary, and as large as you think the circumstances warrant. Let him know where he stands. I believe that if the Government take that line at this moment, it would practically end this controversy, a controversy which is otherwise likely to increase, and as to which I am perfectly certain that public opinion holds the view strongly that these men should be more favourably considered. I do not consider the position satisfactory. I do not consider that it ought to be left where it is. I consider that we ought to have a definite agreement on the floor of this House. My hon. Friend does not like pledges. The days have gone by for pledges in this House, because, I say it advisedly, we have had half a dozen pledges which have not been kept.A hundred pledges.
Both Front Benches are to blame for all the pledges that have been made and have been violated, so that private independent Members of the House are in this position, that they must not put too much confidence in the statements of Ministers, no matter what particular Government they may belong to, when a few months later it may be said that the pledge which was given no longer applies, that it has no relation to the present position. We know these cases well. There is one directly before us at the present time. Take the case of the pink form. I have received at least a dozen letters this morning from people who will be affected by this proposal. The circumstances were these. They had been rejected as medically unfit, and they had been assured on behalf of the Government that they would never again be called up for re-examination. On the faith of that they placed what little savings they had in businesses and made arrangements for the future according to that declaration on the part of the Government. Had it been different, had they thought that they might be called up for re-examination, they would not have undertaken the responsibilities which they have undertaken. The case of these men is a very strong one. Only a few months ago that pledge was made. Now they are to be called up after they have invested their savings in these businesses. These are cases which ought to be very favourably considered by the Government. So far as I am concerned I shall want something more than has yet been stated before I support even the Bill which is before us. Why should we have this Bill to-day? We have it because the Government require another 100,000 men. I will show my hon. Friends how they can get them without this Bill. If the declaration before the country is that we have got such a state of things in carrying on this War on twelve or fifteen different fronts that 100,000 men is the only demand we are making at the present time, I think that it is a very small demand in view of the liabilities which we have undertaken. A hundred thousand men does not go very far.
It is only 100,000 unfit men.
My hon. Friend is right; this Bill only applies to unfit men, but of course it involves the assumption that we cannot get the 100,000 men who are required at the present time, otherwise we would not pass this Bill. Therefore we have got to take the broad question. The Government consider that this Bill is the best method of obtaining the 100,000 men which they require. I will only observe in passing that 100,000 men really does not go very far in some of the offensives which we sometimes undertake. I certainly agree with the hon. Member who said it suggests considerations of larger policy rather than the mere method of obtaining men at the present time. Before we agree to this demand I think that we are entitled to ask the Government if they have exhausted practically every other source at their disposal? They have done nothing of the kind. For two and a half years, at any rate two years, I have raised in this House time after time the question, which was alluded to to-day, of friendly aliens in this country. I was told a year ago by the late Home Secretary that we had in England here—the larger number of them in London—over 30,000 friendly aliens belonging to countries fighting with us, who at the time were of military age. I venture to say that the figure should be a great deal more than 30,000; I would say myself 40,000. However, take the official answer and assume that it is over 30,000. Why, when our men have been making sacrifices, risking their lives, shutting up their shops and leaving their businesses have these 30,000 men been walking about our streets? It is a scandal, and neglect on the part of the Government is responsible for it.
I know that delicate negotiations may have to take place with the Allies, but over six months ago we had a declaration on behalf of the Government that their policy was to call up those men, and when you are asking for 100,000 men who have been rejected as medically unfit, we are entitled to say, "What are you doing to get these 30,000 men, who are fit, to fight either in our ranks or in the ranks of the country to which they belong?" Before the Bill passes I hope we will have a definite statement on that subject. I understand that a Bill is necessary. When is the Bill coming in? When is it to be introduced? We are adjourning over Easter. That means that it will not be done for another month. Yet for two and a half years these men ought to have been taking their burden of responsibility. There are 30,000 whom I have given to begin with. There are other sources of supply. I do not agree with my hon. and gallant Friend who addressed the House a few minutes ago, and who said, "Why is not Ireland got in at the present time?" I am not going into that question. It suggests a demand on Ireland for men while we deny Ireland's demand. Had we shown a little more foresight in times past, it is possible that recruits from Ireland would have been very much larger than they even have been. I say, however, in dealing with Ireland, that there are men in Ireland who ought to be in our Army at the present time. I allude to the Englishmen, Scotsmen, and, may be, Welshmen, who went over to Ireland eighteen months and two years ago, and are there at the present time. I had a letter yesterday from an eminent professor in Ireland who gave figures, very substantial figures, as to the number of young Englishmen over in Ireland at the present time who ought to be available for military service. I only ask the War Office: Have they inquired into that? Obviously, if there are any Englishmen who have gone over there during the last eighteen months, they ought to be subject to the operation of the Military Service Act. That is quite a distinct question from the question of no Conscription in Ireland. There are other sources as to which again there has been great delay. There is the source of Britishers living in Allied countries. French papers have often very strong articles, asking what the French Government and the British Government are doing, so as to secure these Englishmen who ought not to be exempt from military service. How many Britishers do the Government consider are in France at the present moment who have never been liable to military service at all? I understand that there is a considerable number. There are other Allied countries where, to my knowledge, there are large numbers of Britishers who ought to be taking their share in the War at the present time. Measures ought to be adopted to have a Proclamation to the Britishers in Allied countries, pointing out that unless they accept their responsibility and come and take their share, they will not be in quite the same position after the War as other men will be. I know cases where men have gone to British Consuls in different countries and asked for their passage to come home, and been refused. That is another way in which something might be done. Let the British Consuls in all neutral and Allied countries have a free hand in dealing with these men. Let them have a medical examination there if they like, and these men could be dealt with. But all these sources of supply have not been tapped up to the present. There has been a lot of conversation and a lot of talk. We have never yet had any real action on the part of the late Government or of this. I ask my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary to make it his business as far as possible to have no more time lost about it. It is about two years too late now. The result may not be as good as we were entitled to expect, but it ought to be done. Up to this moment there has been no direct appeal from this country to the thousands of our countrymen abroad, from which they might consider it absolutely necessary for them to return. I ask that that shall be made, and I have no doubt whatever that if done, it will find a ready response. 6.0 P.M. Then there is another point. I would ask my hon. Friend, are we to do nothing with coloured labour at all throughout the War? Is the War to end with half a million coloured men available not only for the fighting line, but also to do work which would enable men to go into the lighting line. I know that we are using a considerable number in France at the present time. Why have we been so slow in using them? We never seem to have wakened up to the enormous character of the War. We ought to have had every available man from every corner of the Empire helping eighteen months ago. My right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee (Mr. Churchill) over a year ago, and my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke (Colonel Ward) raised this question in the House. They pointed out the delay that would take place, and that then it would be necessary to train officers in the language, and so on, in order to command these battalions. But up to the present time no real action has been taken to bring coloured men into the fighting line. We have not touched the fringe of the question yet. So far as India is concerned, there is certainly a great reservoir of men which ought to be tapped. I would invite my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary to tell us how many coloured men we have got. He may say that he cannot tell us because of not giving information to the enemy. I do not think that matters very much. This bogey about giving information to the enemy has been exploited far too much by both Governments. The Germans know to-day far more about our military strength and arrangements and intentions than most Members of this House. Therefore, let us know how many coloured troops we have got, how many are actually employed at present, how many are expected to be employed, and how many more my hon. Friend thinks will be necessary. When you are making the demands that you are making it is a very serious matter, for it often means certain death, whether the men who have been re-examined go on the field or not. To my knowledge men have been brought from the front who were of no further use for service of any kind. I had a case of my own only the other day, that of a young man of about twenty-three years of age, who returned from the field unfit for doing any further work, and it afterwards took me about three months to get him released. Before he was released he was examined by four or five doctors, and he was so exhausted at the end of the examination that I immediately sent him away for a month's rest, and it took him a month or more before he was capable of doing anything of any sort. The examination was of so severe a character that it was almost worse than anything the young man had gone through in France. This lad, in my opinion, should have been rejected. I put to my hon. Friend two things: The first is that he should go further than he has yet gone in reply to the demands of my hon. Friend behind me, and also give us an assurance that all the sources of supply have been properly tapped before proceeding with this demand under the Bill.I should like to say two or three words about the Bill. Examing it, as I think we all ought to do, on the basis that compulsory military service has been adopted by Parliament and the country, and, having been so adopted, it has got to be worked in the best possible way to secure the best possible results. Since the original Military Service Act was passed I have myself always taken up that attitude, and I look back and say, I think with truth and accuracy, that any suggestion I have since made has simply been in the direction of making the working of the machine more efficient. I want to look at this Bill only from that point of view. I would ask the Under- Secretary for War if he thinks it sufficiently distinguishes between two entirely different kinds of cases? One kind of case I think is deserving of very little sympathy, and as to which probably the whole House would be willing, even at the risk of some disregard of previous assurances, to pass further legislation. The other class of case, I think, would be thought by everybody in the House as one which they would desire most anxiously to consider, and the interests of which we should all wish most jealously to watch over and guard. The two classes are these: On the one hand, we are told— we have been told it before, and I have some difficulty in believing that the numbers are really very great—that there are people walking about this country to-day who, though within the limits of military age, have none the less escaped the duty which the law of the land puts upon them, and of which they are physically capable, being in good dealth and strength, by means which are nothing short of fraudulent. Nobody can have any sympathy whatever with such persons. I do not know how many of them there are, or by what means they have escaped, but I think they ought to be dealt with, if possible, where they have escaped, owing to their own fraud or owing to some failure in the working of the machine. They ought, by some means, to be called upon to do their duty; at any rate, some means should be adopted to catch them, whether they have escaped by good fortune or mistake, or whether they have escaped by fraud.
Take the other case, which I cannot help thinking a hard one, that of the man who came forward in the early days of the War and volunteered, whether under the Lord Derby scheme or otherwise, and who, though he was anxious to do his best for his country, was rejected on the ground of unfitness. I quite see, and I realise that the standard of physical fitness must deteriorate as the War goes on. That is well understood. Consequently, it was thought right, in the autumn of last year, to carry a second Military Service Act, which provided that men who had been medically rejected before the first Military Service Act none the less might be called on at any time before the 1st of September last year to be re-examined. There were many persons who received the pink form for that purpose, but in the course of the late autumn last year they were not called up for re-examination because the military authorities at that - time thoroughly realised that the persons who had been rejected were so wholly unfit that they could not possibly be sent to the Army. These are the cases of men who wanted to serve, who were disappointed because they could not serve, and who were, under the first Military Service Act, put right outside the scope of it. Yet they are now to be put under the provisions of the Military Service Act. They were given the pink form of the 1st September last year, but the military authorities asked themselves what was the good of having these men who were no more fit at the end of last year than before and who could not be accepted. Is it right to treat these two kinds of persons, the fraudulent person who slipped his way out of the Act of Parliament and the man who did everything he could to serve his country, but who was, in the judgment of the military authorities at the end of last year a person who could not be considered fit for the Army—is it fair, I ask, that these two persons should be dealt with in the same way? Under this Bill you do so. Under this Bill a man rejected only last week will be none the less liable. A man who has been wounded twice or thrice and discharged from the Army because it was found by experience that nothing could be done with him comes under this Bill. The Under-Secretary for War says not for twelve months, but there is no such indication in the Bill. You have these two classes of persons—one the fraudulent trickster that everybody would like to see brought to book, and the other a man who, of all classes of the community, seems to me to deserve most consideration from the House of Commons. The Director-General of Recruiting has had this very point brought before him. He was asked in correspondence whether he did not realise the gross injustice that would arise unless a clear distinction was made in future legislation between those who received the pink forms and had them withdrawn when the authorities came to the conclusion that it was of no use to call the men up, and those rejected men who either had not received the pink form or else had received it too late. The reply of the Director-General of Recruiting, written in December of last year, was as follows:I would ask the Under-Secretary, has it really been borne in mind? There is no sign of it whatever in this Bill, and it does seem to me a very serious thing that you should expose to disabilities the very class who have really done their best and are most to be pitied, while those who have escaped service by fraud or by mistake will be subjected to the same tratment. In the times in which we live, pledges seem to be so much piecrust, and assurances given in the most solemn way in most instances are treated as of not much account. I would like the House to hear what was said by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies at the time when he was President of the Local Government Board and on the occasion of the last Military Service Bill. I would like Members to hear the assurances which were given on behalf of the Government by my right hon. Friend. There was a discussion as to what was the date before which the pink form ought to be served. The right hon. Gentleman was arguing that it ought to be a fairly distant date as he wanted to be quite sure that the War Office machinery would not be too hard pressed. I am reading from the 16th May, 1916, column 1455, of the OFFICIAL REPORT. The right hon. Gentleman said:"I am directed to acknowledge the receipt of your letter addressed to the Director-General of Recruiting and in reply to inform you that the point you raise is appreciated, and will be borne in mind in any future legislation that may be proposed."
Apparently there seems to have been suspicion in the minds of some people, for the right hon. Gentleman went on to say:"We all want that there shall be a time, and as early a time as possible, when all those men who have been medically rejected shall know that their cases have been revised and settled for all time—that is to say, those who are to be re examined, and called up for service in consequence, shall know what their duty is; and, on the other hand, those who are rejected again, will never again be harried and called upon to undergo a fresh examination."
I can recognise, as must any sensible man, that as the War goes on the standard of fitness must be depressed. I make no complaint of that; it is quite reasonable, and it is not unnatural, that the Ministerial authorities, if they find that the machine is not working effectively, should come to the House of Commons for further power to make it work effectively. Still, I do think that some better protection ought to be given, and that people ought not to be harried when no good can come of it. There are people who, in many cases, have been wounded in the country's service, who had offered themselves in the early days of the War, and who got the pink form last September, but were afterwards told by the military authorities that it was no good their coming up because their condition was such that they could not do anything. The object we should have in view is to have machinery which will not produce the degree of depression, anxiety, and injustice which is involved in the wide terms of this Bill. The Government told us that they expected to get 100,000 men by this moans. Will they tell us how many will come from the different classes? For example, how many is it seriously thought are going to be got from those who have already received pink forms? I find it very difficult to believe that the standard of medical examination was so high up to September, 1016, that a new medical examination to-day will produce anything of the kind. There is the point made by the right hon. Gentleman who has just now addressed the House, that this House will hardly be doing justice to deserving members of the community who may be touched by this Bill, if we leave the thing merely in the realm of assurance from the Treasury Bench, and that there will have to be in this Bill assurances translated into the terms of the Bill in order that those who really do deserve protection in this matter shall feel that the House is doing what they can to protect them. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in moving the Second Reading, said that the Government and the authorities had always realised that the important thing was to distribute properly the forces of the country between military service on the one hand and other necessary services on the other. I hope it may be so, but I am not quite certain, from the action of the military authorities and their agents, that they understood the necessity so. Nobody would imagine that the military authorities have been other than doing their honest best in the interests of the Army. That was what they were employed for, and what they do. I make no complaint of their having done it as thoroughly as they could. It is quite a different thing from trying to preserve a real balance between the different needs of the country. It surprised me to be told—as we were told — that it is only in view of the recent submarine menace that the authorities fully realised how damaging to the total strength of the country in time of war it is to take from agriculture or from shipbuilding the men who are specially skilled in carrying on those occupations. That surely was a consideration that ought to have been borne in mind. It was never more true than to-day to say that the carrying on of this War by this country is not a simple question of getting any kind of men in any numbers into the Army. It is a question of securing the proper distribution of the man-power of the country as between the different kinds of National Service in time of war. I trust that we may hear that the method hitherto adopted has produced such a result, but I do not think that the past experience which we have had of the working of military service will justify us in allowing this Bill to pass as it stands without greater security being taken for those who would fall within its provisions, and who, if brought within it, would not thereby add one jot to the strength of the nation at this time."There is an impression, I know, that it is the intention of the War Office to keep on re-examining medically rejected men, and that a man who was medically rejected a year ago may not necessarily be medically rejected to day, and that a man medically rejected to-day may not necessarily he medically rejected in six months' time. That is an entire misapprehension. There is no intention whatever to renew these reviews of medical examination."
I rise in order to put a specific point before the Under-Secretary as to the working of this Bill. I accept the necessity for this measure after the statement of the Leader of the House. There are undoubtedly a great number of men in the Army who ought not to be there, and there are likewise a great number of men out of the Army who ought to be in the Army. The purpose of this Bill is, as far as it is practical to do so, to get into the Army at the present grave time those who are able to serve the nation. The point to which I refer is this: Many speakers in the Debate have emphasised the difficulties of the medical aspect of the re-examination under this Bill. What are the facts? The medical staff of the War Office is not adequate for the present position, and I hope that the War Office will carefully consider the suggestion made to-day, and on many previous occasions, that greater use should be made in future of civilian doctors. In connection with the re-examination there is bound to be a great deal of new work imposed on the medical staff of the War Office. The Leader of the House stated that the calculation was that about a million exemptions would have to be re-examined if this Bill were passed into law. What I should like to suggest is this, that in order to save time and labour and to ease the medical staff in its gigantic task, would it not be possible and wise, in the first place, to arrange for a general review of those million cases by a specially appointed medical board for the purpose of excluding from the necessity of re-examination all those cases in which it is perfectly plain and clear that the men concerned could not in any way be taken to serve in the Army at the present time? I think it has been calculated that about 40 per cent, at least of this total of a million exemptions would be men who are quite unfit, and permanently unfit, to be of any real service in the Army. It seems to me if you were in that way to lessen the sphere or area of re-examination it would be a helpful arrangement, in view of the short-handed condition of the medical authorities under the War Office. I dimply put forward that suggestion for consideration, and if it is practical it would meet some of the difficulties which would be inevitably created by calling up a great number of men under this Bill who would undoubtedly be rejected, and would avoid unnecessary dislocation, hardship, and injustice. I hope the Under-Secretary will consider the matter.
I think the Government is to be congratulated in one respect in introducing this Bill. This is a Bill for repealing certain pledges that the Government gave only a few months ago. It usually happens that the Government breaks its pledges without even introducing a Bill, so that it is an advance, certainly, that if pledges are to be broken they are to be broken on the strength of legislation brought forward in this House. A very large number of pledges have been given, some of which were read to-day in the House. It seems to me that the Government theory about pledges is that when they wish to get something passed they give a pledge which makes the passing of that legislation more easy, and when that has been accomplished, and when they have attained what they wish, they no longer regard as sacred the pledges which they gave. I can assure the Government that they are creating a great deal of feeling in the country and in this House as to the constant breaking of understandings that have been given and pledged words that have been spoken. My own view is that a very large number of wholly unfit men have been passed into the Army. I do not believe it is the least exaggeration to say that some 200,000 men unfit for military service have been passed by doctors and entered into the Army. Many of those men have since been discharged, without pension in many eases, and have been placed on the funds of voluntary associations which are expected to pay insurance benefits which they ought never to be asked to undertake to pay. The case has been raised of men who have escaped by means of fraud. Does anybody believe that the Army has not wide powers at present to deal with cases where there is a suspicion that men have used some form of fraud in order to get round the question of medical examination? What is involved in this matter is this: Some people do not seem to attach much importance to the question of the individual. I regard it as of great importance that in the cases you are going to deal with under this Bill you are imposing tremendous cruelty on the individual. In many cases the diseases of the men who have been examined are chronic diseases of the lungs, heart, and so on, and they have been given the most definite assurances by the Government, and by the recruiting authorities and by the doctors, that a man who is suffering from chronic disease, as of the heart, is a man so ill that there is no question of him being better in a few months later on. Now he has got to undergo uncertainty. The man may be in business and not know where he is, or in employment, or placed in a position in which no employer will take him on, because he does not know the moment he will be called up. I quite admit there are diseases that may be a good deal better six months later on, and there are Army doctors who are able and do discriminate between a temporary disease and something which is chronic. Look at the uncertainty of those men with chronic diseases, perhaps as to setting up in business, and as to what is going to happen to them. They are left in the dark, and is that really going to be defended from the Front Bench? Do they suppose the extra strength they are going to gain from military service is worth it? Hon. and gallant Members have told us about the number of unfit men in the Army. I heard the hon. and gallant Member for Altrincham (Major Hamilton) say that those men were a drag on the Army. Having got them, they cannot get them out, or, with the red tape, it is most difficult to do so. Sometimes, when they know a man is no use, it takes six months before all the various forms are complied with. Many of those men are assuredly going to break down in training. I know that the Army doctors have made many mistakes, but it is really difficult for the Army doctor with a tremendous number of men to examine and devoting five minutes to each of them. Is the Army doctor to be blamed for making mistakes? A man's family doctor would know far more about the man and whether there was any question of trying, by fraudulent means, to pretend that he had an ailment that he had not. The doctor dealing with the case in five minutes is not able to tell what a man's real physical condition is, and the result is that time and again the examination. is of a perfunctory character. Any number of men are passed in who ought not be passed in. Thousands are passing through whom the doctor has never seen and never will see again, and the position that arises in regard to many of these people is that you will not accept full financial responsibility for them in respect of pensions. They have been examined, presumably, once already and been rejected, and they are going to be examined again. If they are passed in the second time—and surely the doctors ought to be a little chary about accepting men who were rejected only a few months ago—are these men going to be allowed to receive a pension if they break down and are discharged? Having used up material which you ought not to have used, are you going to scrap them mercilessly without any recognition or pension? I think that is a vital question, and I am convinced that whatever may be said in this House, and whatever assurances may be given about greater care in this direction or in that, once we put the full power over these men in the hands of the military authorities the matter passes out of our hands altogether, and we have no longer any control over it.
A great many of these unfit men are now serving in industries—and does anybody believe that industries can be drained to a much greater extent than they are already?—men who are working on land, engaged in food production, and so on. I can quite easily understand the constant and ever-widening demand that comes from the Army, but I would remind the House that you can swell the demand up to that point where you have very little economic power behind the Army left, and I do not hesitate to say, without any reflection on the doctors, that in many cases these medical examinations have been very largely a farce. I am convinced that this constant breaking of pledges on the part of the Government is going far to discredit the military authorities and to discredit faith in Governments, and I hope we shall receive before the conclusion of this Debate a far more satisfactory statement than we have yet had from the Front Bench, and that any statement which is made will not be merely a pledge—we do not want any more pledges—but that we shall have any pledge which is given definitely embodied in this Bill with a view to seeing that you are not going to use unfit men recklessly and that the men you do accept and who are passed as fit by the doctors shall be fully recognised in regard to pensions, and payments, and so on.The hon. Member who has just spoken always makes a very strong case from his own point of view, and he has done so to-day, but I confess that his oratory would have more effect upon me personally—and I may say the same as regards the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon)—if I did not remember that they are, and always have been, opposed to the whole principle of compulsory service for the Army. If you start from the standpoint that it is an iniquitous invasion of our liberties and a wrong policy to pursue to take men compulsorily for the Army at all, then, of course, it becomes comparatively easy to pick holes in any such proposition as is now before the House, and I cannot help thinking that, if the policy recommended by the hon. Members, and by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow, had prevailed at an earlier period, to-day the Germans would be in Paris, if not in London. Consequently all the persuasive eloquence that is expended from that standpoint appears to me to be altogether out of place when we are considering a method of making good gaps or shortcomings in the system deliberately adopted by this House and by the country. The last speaker, following the example of some others, has said a good deal about broken pledges. That is rather a threadbare subject, and if I wanted which I certainly do not, to indulge in old-world recriminations, I could recall broken pledges for which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow was as responsible as anybody in this House, and the breach of which was much more enthusiastically supported by the Mover and Seconder of this Amendment than the giving of the pledge, and therefore I pass by all these questions of broken pledges with this remark alone, that, after all, if the doctrine of the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken were to prevail, it would only result in this, that no Minister of the Crown, in laying the policy of the Government before the House, would ever dare to indulge in any prediction or prophecy, or even to make a statement as to what the intentions of the Government were in regard to the working out of their policy.
It would be much more honest.
That is the hon. Member's view. I do not think myself that it would be for the advantage of the House or the country. I listened very closely to the quotation from my right hon. Friend the Colonial Secretary, which was read a short time ago, and personally I could detect no pledge in it at all. It appeared to be a mere statement of the views that were held at that time by the Government as to the working out of the policy which they were then laying before the House.
Never again!
Their expectations in that respect have been disappointed, and their intentions have been changed, but I did not understand it as a definite pledge given by a Minister to certain classes in the country by which they ever considered themselves bound. I must say that I have a good deal of sympathy with the views of the two hon. Members who introduced this Amendment on the subject matter of the Amendment itself. My two hon. Friends, those Scotch twin stars who are always revolving round each other, each one the satellite of the other, laid before the House an objection to passing this Bill until they had extracted from the Government a pledge—another pledge, although they do not seem to think that there is much advantage to be attached to these pledges— that the Government will deal in a different fashion from what it has hitherto done with men who, when called to service with the Colours, reveal defects which have not been before detected, and who are practically broken in life, and are dismissed without pension or sufficient gratuity. I entirely share that view, and it is one which I hope they will continue to press upon the House; but I think this is not the occasion on which to press it. I do not see myself that it is an occasion when we should put into practice a sort of perverted version of the old doctrine of "grievances before supply," because that is really what they want. There is no direct relevance between the two cases. I want to see a sound and effective and generous system pursued towards all classes of soldiers who fall or who are injured in the War; but because I desire to see that policy put upon a sound footing by the Government, I do not want until that is done to delay the Government in adding to the efficiency of the Army. My hon. Friend who introduced the Amendment appeared to think it was an occasion for a sort of bargain between the House and the Government in regard to getting men for the Service, and I was so struck by one phrase which he used that I took it down verbatim. He said:
It is not a case of supplying the Leader of the House with 100,000 men; it is not a case of supplying the Government with 100,000 men; it is a case of supplying the nation with 100,000 men, of supplying ourselves. It is not the Leader of the House who wants any more than any of the rest of us to beat the Germans. We want it ourselves, and the only function of the Government is, with the information which is at their disposal, to come down here and tell us what is the best way or the only way of getting the men, not for themselves but for us, and it is in that light altogether that I regard the proposal which is now before the House. The Seconder of the Amendment was, I think, a little audacious in the way of proposing an alternative. What was the alternative of the hon. Member? It was that we should give up the Salonika Expedition and bring 250,000 men from there. All I can say in regard to that, with the greatest possible respect to the hon. Member, is that I cannot accept him as a great strategical guide, and I cannot accept merely on his ipse dint the proposition that we should be better able to carry on the War if that particular branch of hostilities were abandoned to-morrow. I think that as long as the highest military authorities—"When the Leader of the House comes to the House am] asks us to supply him with 100,000 men he ought to come with clean hands."
Who are they?
Well, I do not include my hon. Friend among them.
Nor the Chief of the General Staff.
As long as the highest military authority continues to regard that as an essential part of our military operations I think it is hardly an effective suggestion to come here and say to the Government that we cannot accept their plan for getting more men, because we should adopt the strategical proposal of my hon. Friend. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon) made a speech just now, and I am sorry he is not now in his place, and, as he always does, he made a very able speech; but there was one thing which I was unable to determine, and that was whether or not he was a supporter of the Bill or whether he was a supporter of the Amendment. At one time he appeared to support the Government proposals, and at another time he appeared to supper my hon. Friends opposite, but there was this noticeable proposition which he laid down: He said that, of course, we must accept it as an axiom in the progress of the War that the medical standard should necessarily be lowered. Well, I think that is probably true, but I do not think the Bill which is before the House rests upon the acceptance of any such proposition as that. I do not think it at all follows that the men who are to be got under this Bill are in any sense of the word medically unfit. A great many speeches which have been made appear to proceed upon the assumption that in a greater or less degree the men to be got under this Bill will be medically unfit. I do not understand that that will be so at all. All that the Bill says is that men may be taken now who possibly two years ago were medically unfit. Medical unfitness is not an incurable disease. It is quite true, as the hon. Member who spoke last said, that there are men who are or who may be incurable. You may have many of these men who are called up who will be medically unfit, but the only grievance they will suffer is having to undergo medical re-examination. Is it really to be held, as the hon. Member for Sheffield just now said in such very indignant language, that it is so very great a hardship and so great an iniquity that, at a time like this, men should be requested to submit themselves to medical examination in order to establish the fact that they are not more fit for service than they were two years ago? I do not think that at all. On the other hand, it seems to me perfectly plain that there must be very large numbers of men who were perfectly rightly rejected—I do not say six months ago, but twelve or eighteen months ago— who may be perfectly fit to serve now without in any degree giving support to the proposition that the medical standard has been lowered. I understood from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman who introduced the Bill that the 100,000 men expected to be got are only estimated as the sound residuum after the examination has eliminated some 800,000 or 900,000 men who still will be unfit for service.
Under these circumstances, surely the House has a much more clear-cut proposition to deal with than many of those introduced into the speeches to which we have listened this afternoon. I think it is quite likely that in reference to individuals and classes that there may be hardships. I think it is inevitable that there may be such in the working of this and other Military Service Acts. We are, however, up against this plain proposition with which the House is called upon to deal— that to-day the Government tell us that the recruiting for the Army is to a serious degree short of what it ought to be. By this Bill, as I understand it, any minimum deficiency will be or may be wiped out by bringing to the Colours 100,000 men fit for general service and also for service at the front. Why, then, under these circumstances, should this House hesitate? Is there any Member of this House who, if he clearly understands that 100,000 men are urgently needed for the Army for service in the coming months, and that by this Bill these men can be got, would hesitate to vote for this Bill, even if all the objections which have been urged on both sides of the House were substantiated and agreed upon? I for one am not prepared to allow myself to be moved by any of these considerations. One clear duty before me is to vote for the Bill which the Government have put before us. I go further. I regard this as only a very partial dealing with the subject. I cannot help thinking that the Government must have brought in this Bill as a more or less temporary measure in order to bring in these 100,000 men, knowing very well that we shall require further and more drastic legislation later to get a still larger supply. I earnestly hope that the Government will get the Bill through before the Recess in order to supply the gaps that now exist, and that we shall not be back here very long after the Recess before we shall have some far-reaching proposals to supply the men whom everybody knows must be brought in in very much larger numbers if that decisive victory over the enemy is to be achieved within the next year or year and a 'half—that victory which this country is determined to achieve whatever disadvantage or hardship may be involved in getting the men.I rather think that there is really a more common-sense feature in this matter than that presented, at any rate, in the Debate up till now. This principle of renewed examination is a very common one in business life. I was rather astonished to hear a distinguished Member of the Labour party deal with this matter as being a hardship, because the Labour party have accepted it without a murmur in relation to cases under the Workmen's Compensation Act. A man, it may be, has been incapacitated by accident and is getting a pension from his employers. There is no doubt about the facts here. It has been admitted by the payments that have been made to the man. That he should be called upon periodically to be examined by a doctor has not been accounted a hardship or a thing to be complained about. It is practically unknown for a man to object to medical re-examination who is receiving some allowance from his employer. There is no difficulty in the case. You get two doctors, the employer and the man, and if they do not agree the case goes before a County Court judge or an official, and there is no difficulty, or problem, or anything requiring legislation. The principle has been accepted by both sides for years. To require such an examination is not taken as a reflection upon the man. The Labour party have never come here and represented that this was a grievance and a thing for which they would fight. The cases of injustice are exceedingly few. If that be so, if that was an accepted part of our business life in times gone by, why is the principle considered obnoxious when we are engaged in a life and death struggle with an enemy? I do not take it that this Bill will draft unfit men into the Army. If I thought that I should be bound to vote against it. I quite agree with the statement made that unfit men have been taken into the Army, because they have come back into civil life and come upon the approved societies under the Insurance Act. A Bill is being introduced by the Government in order to meet this case, for it is admitted that this is a burden the societies should not suffer. That, however, is not the point. I cannot conceive that this Bill will be used now in cold blood to repeat former errors.
We must remember that in every one of these cases the doctor will be on his guard. When previous cases came before him he could not pick them out; he could not pick out whether A, B, C or D required the one more examination than the other. He had to be guided by his own observation. He now has the previous records. The doctor might in previous days have made mistakes, and originally have brought in some men who ought not to be there. He will take great care not to make a mistake now, because he is reversing the previous decision, and has all the facts before him of previous examinations. I do not fear it at all, but I would ask my hon. Friends, who are against this Bill, to answer this: Do they not know that there is a considerable number of men in this country carrying exemption certificates who are fit to go into the Army! The number may be 5,000 or 500,000; it may be 50,000 or 150,000. What is their proposal to get these men into the Army? That is what I have been listening for in their speeches. Has there been any proposal? No one has denied that there is a body of men in this country that we may get. Has anyone proposed how to get these men into the Army? If, as has been suggested, the object of some hon. Members is to keep the Army as small as possible, I could understand their speeches and conscientious objections. They may take the view that we ought to have a small Army, a small victory, or a big loss. I can understand them in that case scrutinising every measure of this kind which attempts to get new soldiers. I know the hon. Member who moved and the hon. Member who seconded this Amendment is as sincere as I am in wanting to win this War. They accepted the national position at the outbreak of the War quite as calmly and as frankly as anyone in this House. I put this to them: You would not for a moment scrutinise a measure of this kind because you wanted to keep the Army small; therefore be careful of any Amendment which would delay the passing of this Bill, even of such an excellent kind as that put forward. Before I can vote for such a proposition we must have an alternative plan, not only to get the men from Salonika, or even to get men from abroad, but to discover how you are going to get hold of this brigade or division, or whatever you like to term it, walking about with exemption certificates ! It is no answer to our queries and to the Bill for the hon. Member for North-West Lanark to say, "You can get 100,000 men from Salonika, or Egypt, or Mesopotamia."What about raising the age?
Even if I were in favour of withdrawing from the Balkans—which I am not—I am satisfied with the opinion that we ought to maintain our forces there. I should still want these men who are capable of military service who are walking about with exemption certificates that should be withdrawn. It would be our duty, even with the 250,000 men at Salonika, to raise by this Bill these other men for the West, because the warfare would be over sooner, and with less bloodshed. I venture to express a hope of a different character. I will be better pleased with this Bill if I am told that it is the first of a series which will apply conscientiously the principle of getting the right available men, wherever they are. It is painful to meet so many men of military age in our streets, and I am sorry to say that a number of these are in Government positions. There has been a great cry about combing out. I suppose this is one of the combing-out Bills. We want, however, someone to comb out the combers. There are combers going about who are entitled to all the prominence that can be given to them by those splendid cartoons in the London "Evening News." I hope to see a Bill dealing with these. I hope to see a Bill that will comb out the combers, and also one which will deal with that class of British citizens mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman. I make this proposal to the Government with regard to those young Englishmen abroad: They are entitled to have notice that unless they class themselves with the young Englishmen at home, and report themselves to join the Army, their rights of British citizenship shall be withdrawn. It may be that we cannot go abroad with compulsory powers to bring them home, but I think we ought to give them notice such as I have suggested. I do not care if there are only 500. I say that any English- man abroad shirking his duties merely by living in another place has no right to claim the protection of the Army or of the Fleet in a time of trouble.
There are 5,000 of them in Dublin!
No doubt my hon. Friend is doing his best to get them out?
:I have tried for the last twelve months to get the War Office to look after them, and they have absolutely refused to do anything.
7.0 P.M.
That is a melancholy fact. Doubtless the Irish Nationalist Members are doing their best to remedy this, and to make these young men feel uncomfortable. I am afraid some of them get anything but the cold shoulder when they walk about the streets of Dublin I do know that some of the Irish Nationalist Members have felt very strongly upon this point. They do not want their country made into a refuge for shirkers; that would be unfair and an injustice to Ireland. No doubt they haves enough of their own troubles. I sympathise with hon. Members opposite, and trust they will take every opportunity to get these men out. But in regard to those abroad, to whom I was referring, I say I should give them notice to come back, and make it clear that those who did not could not rely upon the protection of the Foreign Office, or the Army, or the Fleet to protect them as British citizens. I was saying, when I was interrupted, that it surely would be a melancholy thing if in years to come it had to be reported to this House that any of those shirkers were claiming their full rights as British citizens and perhaps involving our Foreign Office in a great deal of difficulty to protect them. But they are just the class that would do it. I, therefore, venture to ask the War Office whether this is the first of a series of measures. Are they taking up this matter in earnest? I shall not vote against this Bill because it is not bigger. I can quite understand they want to take one subject at a time, but I speak, at any rate, for those Members on this side who are determined that throughout this War they will not, under any circumstances, however good the grounds may be, vote against any request from the military authorities for help. There is a considerable body of opinion on this side, and has been all through the War, whom nothing would induce to deny the War Office a request for men to support our Army at the front. In this case I think they are entitled to support, and to still more support, and I would rather criticise the War Office for not being bold enough. I do not think the Government has ever been bold enough in making its requests to the country, and the only criticism I foresee and the only dissatisfaction I can foresee, with regard to this measure, is that the people who come within its scope will say, "Why are you not dealing with the man in the other street who cannot be reached by this Bill?" That is the criticism I think you must fear, because so long as you are only clearing out one particular class, they have a ground of complaint for saying, "Why are you not doing this thing all round?" and if some of these men feel that they are carrying the burden twice, they are the men with whom I have most sympathy—men who have risked their lives and suffered severely, and who, having recovered in health, will be called upon to bear the burden and risk their lives again, when they see about them some men who have never been called at all. We heard the doctrine preached a year or two ago, "Every man once, and some men twice." In passing this Bill, which will call upon some of our gallant sons and brothers to go out again, when they thought they had done their part, I do ask for an assurance that we do not give them the grievance that we are leaving men out who have not been at all. If the War Office will give me that assurance, I will vote for this Bill with all the greater glee.
I do not want to say very much, but, as a Member who for a long time has taken a considerable interest in the question of the medically unfit, I would like to make a lew observations on this Bill. The hon. Member for St. Augustine's complained that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow, left him in doubt as to what his attitude to the Bill really was. If it is any interest to the hon. Member, I can assure him that my observations will leave him in no doubt whatever as to how my vote will be given on this Bill. I do not suppose my reasons, however, will carry any weight with him. He criticised my hon. Friend the Member for Attercliffe because he had always opposed Conscription. Well, I am in precisely the same position. In part I oppose this measure for the same reasons that I have opposed all previous Bills dealing with compulsory military service. If we were arguing the general question of Conscription now, I could advance arguments conclusive to myself, though I do not imagine conclusive to the hon. Member and his Friends, that probably the military position would have been much better to-day if we had remained with our voluntary system. The hon. Member for St. Augustine's, replying to a remark made by the hon. Member for Lanark to the effect that the Leader of the House was asking for these 100,000 men, said that it was not the Government who were wanting 100,000 men, but it was the nation who were wanting—I suppose, who were asking for—100,000 men. If the nation wanted 100,000 men, we should not require a measure of this sort. If the nation had believed these men were necessary, they would have responded voluntarily, and long ago. I do not believe there is one man of military age in the country to-day outside the Army who is very anxious to be under military control. It is simply because the country does not accept the position put forward by the hon. Member for St. Augustine's that measures of this kind are necessary.
I support the Amendment that has been moved from the benches opposite, but it is not my only reason for opposing this Bill, and I do not think, even from the limited point of view of the Amendment, that the case that has been made out is quite complete. My hon. Friends have asked that men who break down under military training or in military service shall be entitled to receive a pension, but there is another class whose position has never yet been mentioned, I think, in the course of this Debate, and that is the not inconsiderable number of men who are not discharged from the Army disabled, but who die before they are discharged from the Army, or who die very soon after their discharge, as a result of the hardship they have undergone while with the Colours. I have in former Debates on this question submitted many cases. I could keep the House here a whole evening giving cases of men who ought never to have been accepted for military service, men who never could have been examined, because it needed no doctor to know that they were totally unfit for military service, and who within a week, within a fortnight, within a month, have died in the Army. I have one case in my mind of a man who had been discharged from the Yeomanry. He was called up under the Military Service Act. He was passed on a Saturday, went with the Colours, and was brought home dead the following Saturday. I have several cases of a similar character in my own Constituenecy. I had one case of a man who had been consumptive all his life. He had never done any work. He was taken under the Military Service Act, sent to the Colours, and in three weeks that man was dead. I have another case in my Constituency now. I have in my possession a pile of correspondence with the War Office, This young fellow was a stonemason. Last May he was called up under the Military Service Act and passed. In forty days he was discharged. He came home, went to bed, and has never since left it. His mother never received one penny of separation allowance, and he has never received one penny of gratuity or pension. Now, it is because we believe that the tens of thousands, nay, the hundreds of thousands of cases more or less similar to that are going to be enormously increased by the powers proposed in this Bill that we do so strenuously oppose it. In response to the speech of the late Prime Minister some sort of concession was announced by the Leader of the House. I confess I do not understand its full implication, but it did scorn to convey a sort of impression that the Government are willing to consider such cases as those to which I have just referred, and which have been mentioned in the course of this Debate. What is it worth? After all, this matter is in the province of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions, and we know what his views are on this question, or, at any rate, we know what his views on the question were a week or two ago, and I would like to remind those hon. Members who may be influenced by what has been said from the Government Benches on this point during the course of this Debate that if anything be done to assure pensions for these men, or pensions for the dependants of men who are killed as a consequence of being called into the Army when unfit, if my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions still remains of the same opinion, then the acceptance of that involves his resignation. I hope before this Debate closes we shall hear something from my right hon. Friend. Now many who have spoken in support of this Bill have made the point that this Bill is only going to deal with men who were medically rejected eighteen months or two years ago. It does a great deal more than that. Under that much discussed Clause of the Military Service Act the War Office could call up before 1st September every man who had been previously rejected within a period of something like twelve or fourteen months. It may be that there are cases where the pink form was not sent before 1st September. I believe there are such cases. I had a letter this morning from a man who lives in a town of Lancashire with a population of 70,000, and he says in that borough there are only three men who did not receive the pink form before 1st September last. What is this Bill going to do? This Bill is going to give the power to the War Office to call up every-man who was medically re-examined under that provision in the second Military Service Act, and who have to remember that those men who were medically reexamined under that Act had been examined at least once before, and in a vast number of cases not once, twice, or thrice, but many times. There is a man within this building who has a son who has been rejected six times, and if this Bill be passed the War Office will have the power to call upon that man to undergo a further medical examination. Many cruel and wicked things have been done in connection with the recruitment of the Army under the Military Service Acts, but it is cruel to call up men in that state of health, because that knowledge of their physical condition is a sufficient burden for those men to have to bear. It will be worse when this Bill becomes law, because these men are suffering actual torture as to what their future condition is going to be, and they know something of the perfunctory way in which the medical examination is carried out. Therefore I do not attach the least importance to the statement made from the Treasury Bench that greater care will be exercised by the military medical examiners in the future than in the past. Last August I raised this question on the Adjournment, and then the Prime Minister denied that unfit men had been taken into the Army, and he said that I had rendered a disservice to the country, because if my speech was reported in Germany it would convey the impression that the new British Army was composed of "crocks," and the Germans would arrange their campaign accordingly. The Prime Minister on that occasion denied my statements, and challenged me to produce cases. Afterwards I produced the cases and sent to the War Office a big batch of them. I was promised that they would be investigated, but not in one single case did the War Office make any investigation. Every day I get letters from men who have previously been examined—and there must be in the Army records a statement of their physical condition—who have been rejected suffering from heart disease, and they are not likely to improve in six or twelve months, and yet our medical men every day are passing recruits for the Army who are suffering from heart disease and other organic disease. The House was much fuller when the hon. Member for Ealing (Mr. Nield) raised this question of the taking of unfit men, and in seconding his Amendment I called attention to what I have since been told was an incredible thing. A man in my Constituency whom I have seen, who was taken into the Army, has not a single finger on his right hand and has only a stump of a thumb. I have had that case before the War Office for two or three weeks, and it is still there. When we know from our own experience not one such case, not a hundred such cases, but thousands of them, how can we have any faith after eighteen months of this kind of thing that the War Office is going to reform its evil practices? As a matter of fact, we know that they will not. We are told that there are one million of these men, and that the Government expect to get 100,000 men from them. Well, we must be in a serious military position if, to save the Allied cause— [An HON. MEMBER: "Where?"]—we have to take 100,000 men who are admittedly unfit—[An HON. MEMBER: "No!"]—Yes, admittedly unfit; because they have all been examined, and nearly every one of them more than once.There are thousands who "bilk" their medical examination.
I do not know what the hon. Member means.
They used influence to get through their medical examination.
How can the hon. Member make a statement like that; how does he know that that is so. Surely the Government must be acquainted with the facts, and under the Defence of the Realm Act that is a very serious offence indeed. But why is it necessary for the Government to bring in a Bill to re-examine one million men to deal with the few cases of what my hon. Friend opposite calls bilking. But there is another aspect to the question. The Under-Secretary for War told us the other day that in seven weeks' time the Army Medical authorities had examined 1,500,000 men.
:I did not say in seven weeks. I said up to the end of 1916 and the beginning of 1917. I was referring to discharges from the Army in seven weeks.
I am glad the hon. Member has given that explanation, because the same impression was given to other hon. Members. Then there is the question of cost. I do not suppose that the Army doctors will examine all the one million men, although they will examine a large number, and, of course, there must the cost of re-examination, with the loss of time involved, and the loss of wealth in calling up all these men, I say uselessly calling up these men, for medical examination. One hon. Member told us that in his district, which is a large agricultural district, ploughmen and others are being called up for reexamination, and this means the loss of at least one day's work. I think it is admitted that at least 100,000 unfit men have been discharged from the Army, and it will not be denied that there are hundreds of thousands of unfit men. in the Army to-day who are simply an expense to the country. We are told that each soldier costs £300 a year, but I will take a moderate figure, and I will say that the cost of these men who, sooner or later, will have to be discharged from the Army as unfit is £200 a year. That is a tremendous waste of public money, and it is a matter which ought to receive consideration.
I do not ask for pledges. I went very closely through the Debates on the first and second Military Service Acts, and I have learned something by the experience of the last twelve months. I was so innocent in the days of the first Military Service Act that I accepted certain pledges given by the Government, but not one of them has been kept. Not a single pledge which was made in order to induce Parliament to pass the Military Service Acts has been kept; therefore I ask for no pledges; and I do not want any pledges, because I have no faith that any pledges which are given now will be kept more strictly than the pledges which have been given in the past. We shall seek to amend this Bill in Committee, and we want Amendments in black and white in the Bill itself. If the Government want men other resources are not exhausted, and, according to what the hon. Member for the St. Augustine's Division (Mr. R. McNeill) said, he is looking forward to more Bills of this kind. I suppose he is feverishly anxious for the time when the age will be extended to include himself, and then he will be given an opportunity of showing his patriotism on the field of battle. I am quite sure my hon. Friend, even at his age, is physically far more capable of undergoing those hardships than a large proportion of the younger men who have been taken into the Army to-day. I say your resources are not exhausted. Who have tens of thousands of ministers of religion, most of them of military age, and they are the most patriotic people in the country. They are the people who believe in the righteousness of this War and in the righteousness of all war. Why should they be exempt? Are they doing work of such national importance that it is necessary they should be specially exempt? Why should they not undergo the hardships of trench warfare? Let all the resources be exhausted before the War Office comes here and asks us to conscript the kind of men it is proposed to take under this Bill. I will conclude by making a suggestion, and it is that the Government should repeal both the Military Service Acts and introduce and pass into law a short one-Clause Bill endowing the War Office with autocratic-powers to do just what they like. That will then give legislative sanction to the practices which the War Office have been carrying out for the last eighteen months. I promised to give my reasons for opposing this Bill, and I have done so. I shall vote against this Bill, and we shall endeavour to amend it in Committee. The Bill will pass, that we know, but I want to assure the Government that I am perfectly certain they will not help in the prosecution of the War by passing a measure like this. There are 1,000,000 men affected, and whatever their enthusiasm for the War was before, it will not be increased by the adoption of this Bill.I think I am correct in saying that the criticisms that have been passed upon this Bill as it stands have been very few indeed. The main criticisms have been directed towards the attitude of the Government in regard to the Amendment which has been moved by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) and seconded by the hon. Member for North-West Lanarkshire (Mr. Pringle). This is a small Bill. It is admittedly a small Bill and merely a temporary measure. I note with very great satisfaction that when it was being impressed upon me as representing the Government that we should go on and get an even more comprehensive measure there was a good deal of general support in the House, and I am not surprised.
You will not find it in the country.
I should like to know what part of the country my hon. Friend refers to. My hon. Friend knows that he cannot go into any part of his own Constituency and say, after the assurance which has been given from this box and on the responsibility of the Government, that 100,000 more men are wanted now, that it would not be in the national interest to have them.
I can honestly say that it is not in the national interest that these medically unfit men should be passed into the Army.
My hon. Friend cannot really ride away upon that small point. I notice with satisfaction that so long as the Government pursues a vigorous policy they will practically get the undivided support of this House. If I may say so, most of this Debate is irrelevant. The Amendment itself is largely irrelevant. It is an Amendment which has been debated and discussed in this House appropriately upon the Pensions Act. My hon. Friend (Mr. Hogge), who is usually very courteous and knows this subject as well as any Member of the House, began to-day with a very virulent attack not upon this Government so much as upon the last Government. I defy my hon. Friend to say that the present Government has broken a single pledge. He began by attacking the practice of breaking pledges and then he went on ex misericordia to get the sympathy of the House by attacking the War Office on account of Class W Reserve. I should like again to state the real facts so far as Class W and Class P are concerned. He knows perfectly well, and he admitted in the course of the Debate the other day, while the Department did make a mistake by putting disabled men into Class W, that we are now recovering ourselves. He admitted that we had so far recovered ourselves by putting these men from Class W into Class P as even to win his own gratitude.
It is perfectly true that Class W is composed almost entirely, or it ought to be, of men who are sent back to civil employment with a lien upon their services if the time comes when their services are required. Class P is different. It is composed of those who have been disabled in the Service and who go back into civil life with a pension. I went so far as to promise, so far as Class W were concerned, that while we could not give them pensions we would guarantee the moment they left the Service that they would in any case get a week's wages and separation allowance for their wives and children until they got some civil occupation. Let me examine the contention of those who have been pressing the Government to accept this Amendment. It is a fact that this Government is the most generous of all Governments so far as pensions and allowances are concerned. It is admitted that we give a pension to a man who has been disabled in the Service. It is admitted that we give a pension to a man whose disease has been aggravated in the Service, and we give not meagre pensions, but substantial pensions. What is my hon. Friend's proposal which has received astonishing support from the most astonishing quarters? His proposal is that we should also give a pension to a man who is discharged from the Service even after twenty-four hours, and though any disease that he may have has not been aggravated by his service or has been acquired by him in the Service.I never said that.
That is the point.
If under this Act you re-accept a man who has already been reexamined and rejected, you must accept the responsibility of a pension in his case.
That is exactly what I say. That was my reading of my hon. Friend's Amendment. I accept that statement of his case. If we are going to give a pension to the particular class of men my hon. Friend describes, every single man in the British Army will get a pension for life, except the gallant fellow who has never been ill, and who has fought for two solid years in the trenches and has come back. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Yes, you include everybody for a pension except the strong physical man, who has very likely done all the fighting at the front. Could my hon. Friend go to his constituency and justify that?
I would be prepared to go to my Constituency and justify my Amendment. Will you come down and take the chair?
There is not a single individual in the Army who would be excluded from a pension except the man who is physically fit and has done gallant service at the front. Are those men to come back after their gallant service and find that a pension has been given to a man who has been in the Service very likely only for a few hours, and who may have been dismissed from the Service for illnesses of this sort: "Unable to march on parade. Attended no parade; had no military training."
What about the doctors who passed these men?
We have not been unmindful of these men, even although we feel that they have no claim.
You are talking of the past.
No; under the new Royal Warrant we have provided that these men shall be allowed to get a gratuity up to £150, and I do not think we can accept any further responsibility so far as these men are concerned. When a pension is given for an aggravated disease or for wounds, it is a flat-rate pension. I assume, therefore, that my hon. Friend would have a flat rate all round. If that is so, it would cost the country at least an additional £10,000,000 a year. My right hon. Friend the Member for East Fife (Mr. Asquith) asked whether, in regard to the men in this category, men who are discharged with an aggravated disease, or with a disease acquired in the Service, we would accept the suggestion made by my hon. Friend. I am not in a position now or at any time to promise that we could accept the Amendment, but I can give the House the assurance, which I think will satisfy my right hon. Friend the late Prime Minister, that we are going to take every possible precaution, if men who have already been examined come up again for re-examination, that they shall be most thoroughly and carefully examined. I cannot go any further than that at the present time.
Some attacks have been made upon the doctors who have been examining the recruits for the last few months. Since the passing of the Military (Service Acts the doctors in this country have been divided into two classes. You have got the Royal Army Medical Corps men engaged in the various theatres of war, and you have to rely upon the meagre supply of civilian doctors available for this purpose. It is true, as my right hon. Friend the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that in one day during the heavy recruiting season you had no fewer than 300,000 men examined. I am not at all surprised that some doctors did make mistakes, but I would repeat the argument by which I attempted to reply the other day to the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden) and the hon. Member for Ealing (Mr. Nield). You would not find a Harley Street specialist, looking back upon his medical prognoses and diagnoses, who had made less than 1 per cent. of mistakes. I can confidently say that out of all these 1,500,000 cases the doctors have not made mistakes amounting to more than 1 or 2 per cent. I think it is greatly to the credit of the doctors that they have performed the work to such great satisfaction.If the mistakes of the doctors only amount to 1 per cent., would it not be possible for the Government to pay for those mistakes?
I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon) for his speech. It went very much further than I expected him to go. He told us quite willingly that this Bill provided for the calling up again within a short time of men who were excepted from service because of fraud or fortune. These cases of fraud are very numerous, and so are the cases of fortune. The typical case of fortune might be described as the case of the men with enemy associations who at the very beginning of the War offered himself for enlistment, but who was told that he could not be accepted because of his enemy associations. The other cases are the cases of those who applied for admission to select corps, but who were not admitted because they did not come up to a certain physical standard. My right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy Burghs (Sir H. Dalziel) raised the question of the provision of labour from other sources. I did assure the House some time ago, and I repeat the assurance now, that we have attempted in every possible way to utilise coloured labour. We are watching that source of supply with the greatest care and everything possible is being done not only to utilise that labour in all the theatres of war, but to see that the men are comfortably housed and fed. My right hon. Friend also suggested that we might get 30,000 men from the Allies in this country. I confess that does seem to me a very fruitful source. My right hon. Friend knows that we have done our best to negotiate with the various Governments concerned, and we are endeavouring to do so now. Had it not been for certain events taking place in one of our Allied countries, we should at the present moment have negotiated matters and have provided ourselves, so far as that country and other Allied countries are concerned, with the assistance of members of those Allies in this country for our fighting forces. I cannot go further than that just now, but I can assure my right hon. Friend that I will do everything I can in the matter.
I have been asked by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Waltham-stow whether this medical examination is to be a real one? I have consulted the authorities, and can give him the assurance that the medical examination will be a real one. The House will quite realise the enormous difficulties which we have had, and we frankly contess that men have been not only rejected from the Army, but included in the Army—it works both ways—because of the amount of work that the medical officers have had to do. We are hoping that we shall get for examination purposes in the near future, not individual civil practitioners, but boards composed of civil practitioners. I can give this assurance that very special attention will be directed to the case of any man who has been medically rejected and who comes up for medical re-examination again. A great deal has been said about the harassing attitude of the War Office so far as calling up these men is concerned. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Walthamstow said he knew of cases where, although the pink form had been sent, notice was given to the men that they would not be called up. That does not show that the War Office is anxious to harass anybody. It shows that we realised at that time that, though we were entitled to send the pink form to them, we could not profitably call them up. It did not show that there would be any danger in future that those who had been disabled would be called up again. The criticisms which have been passed except upon the points I have mentioned have not dealt with the main purpose of this Bill, and any suggestion that has been made can very well be debated. I hope that, in view of the enormous need which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has pointed out—it is an urgent need—of getting these men at the present time when this nation is in the throes of the most terrible war, that this House will grant this Bill a Second Beading now.I have listened with great attention to the very able speech of the Under-Secretary in the hope that he would make some answer to the very important questions which were directly put to him and the Government by my hon. Friend the Member for North-West Lanark (Mr. Pringle). My hon. Friend did not confine himself to any small question of detail, but he asked point blank why, for instance, do you choose this method of adding to your resources in man-power, when, at the same time, there is an alternative method open to you of calling up all men over forty-one years of age, which, from many points of view, is preferable. I am not attempting to prejudge such an issue as that, but it does seem to me that this is a most important point, and that the House is bound to require from the Government a statement upon a matter of that character. After all, is it really better to compel the recovered invalids and recovered wounded who have gone back to their homes, who have taken up civil work, and who are reunited with their families, to go out to the front again, while, at the same time, you leave unmarried men of forty-two, forty-three, or forty-four, all men in full physical efficiency, utterly untouched by the scope of your military arrangements? It is quite impossible for the Government to burke an issue of that kind, and it ought to be quite impossible for the House to allow them to do so. This proposal which has been made by the Government is one in regard to which we should take a very great responsibility upon ourselves if we did not assent to it. But an equal responsibility lies upon the Government. They are bound to show not only that their proposal in itself is a method of meeting the need, but that it is the best method of meeting the need compared with all other measures and efforts which may be open to them. Does not the House consider that the Bill now brought before them is, at its very best, an extremely partial means of meeting the needs? Does it not look like mere tinkering with the great question of man-power? I do not know all the possibilities which are open to the Government, but we ought to have received from the Leader of the House a broad survey of the resources available and clear arguments to show why this one has been selected in preference to the others.
I am not a partisan of those who think that the difficulties of this country are going to be surmounted merely by allowing the War Office to sweep every available man in the country into their net. I have repeatedly said so. The task before us is to take only what is necessary and to take it in the best way. Is it not a fair conclusion that if, for instance, you include in the scope of your new proposals 300,000, 400,000, or 500,000 men over the age of forty-one, you would have to make a less severe scrutiny of those invalids and wounded men to get the necessary 100,000, and, in consequence, that you would not be led either into hardship to the individual or to undoubted inefficiency in the Service which would result when you take a man not really fit for service? I remember perfectly well in the days of the late Government, when there was one of those great crises on the question of compulsion, the Ministers came down to the House and asked us for power to send the old soldier or the wounded soldier comnulsorily to the front, while they refused to take compulsory powers to conscript the young married man. The House treated that proposal with great decision, and it was withdrawn almost immediately. This proposal is very similar in its character, because I say it is a cowardly thing to take a wounded man or a recovered invalid, a doubtful man, physically defective, and press him into the fighting line at this time, while, at the same time, you do not attempt to take a perfectly fit, strong, healthy man who happens to be just over the age and who otherwise might be absolutely eligible and available. We have to ask the Government to consider this proposal as a whole. I am not going to oppose the Government on this measure, but I rise for this purpose: I want the House of Commons to insist upon discussing this question of man-power as a whole. What is the use of our dealing piece-meal with this question now, after all that has happened? I got up in the House a year ago and implored Parliament to pay attention to this question of man-power. I was thoroughly versed in the subject; I have studied it from the inside, and I have had practical experience of the Army. I pointed out the immense numbers of servants and men employed behind the line—employed in non-military duties—and that all those great fields could be drawn upon to maintain our manpower. The House took very little interest. There was no desire to take up these points. What do we get now? The Leader of the House says that a good deal has been done in this direction. He admitted we ought to have begun it earlier, but he said that a great deal has been done and is being done in this direction. But if the House of Commons had thrown itself into these questions at an earlier stage and had pursued them with resolute and untiring mental vigour, the Government would have moved earlier and you would have had large resources at your disposal which are not now at your disposal. The House abdicated its functions then. I say it is abdicating its responsibilities now. By all means let the Government have the power they are asking for, but I say we ought to insist on having a proper Debate and discussion on the Whole question of man-power. There are two vital questions—manpower and tonnage—on which our lives depend and our existence depends. Here are Members of the House, each with their constituents in thousands of little cottages and little homes, with families to whom they are responsible. The House is paying no more attention to these subjects in their great scope, paying practically no adequate attention to these questions. It is quite easy to let these matters go. In times of peace you can often let matters go and no harm comes of it, but in time of War you cannot shirk your difficulty. It always falls upon your head with absolute certainty. The clouds never blow over in war time. Everything that is looking bad, has to be met and encountered or else disaster occurs. I appeal to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House. I am not attacking the Government on the question of a Debate in Secret Session. They have never said they would not give one. They have never taken a strong line against it— never! It is the House that has failed to ask for it with sufficient unanimity and energy. Why should the House of Commons neglect its duty in regard to these vital matters? The French Chamber do not do it. They insist upon Secret Sessions. They move in and out of Secret Sessions according to the convenience of debate and the needs of the situation, and when a Minister said he could not trust the Chamber in Secret Session, although he was a most important Minister, the storm of indignation was so great that the Minister was forced to resign. Why should the House of Commons, the Mother of Parliaments, as it is called, avow itself incompetent to discuss the matters upon which the lives and welfare of every one of its constituents and every fellow-countryman absolutely depend? I appeal most strongly to my right hon. Friend to promise us that, if the House so desires it, he will facilitate, after Easter or whenever the course of public business renders it convenient, a full Debate in Secret Session on the great questions of man-power and tonnage. Then we shall be able to see what our resources are, what our needs are, what our prospects are, with at any rate much more clearness than we can at present. Although there may be many facts and figures which the Government would not care to give to the House of Commons even in Secret Session, I am certain that we shall be able to express our own views and to hear from the Government the answers which they would make to those views in such a way as to enable the House to pass this great problem through its mind and take some fair share, some real share, of the responsibility for the grave matters entrusted to their charge, and for which their countrymen will certainly and rightly hold them strictly and straitly responsible.8.0 P.M.
My right hon. Friend is certainly right in saying that the issue which is raised to-day by the presentation of this Bill does involve the whole question of man-power. In the few introductory remarks which I made I clearly indicated that that was the case. I said also that the reason why this Bill was introduced was because, in our opinion, the necessary steps which the Government would have to take in order to secure the men which we believe must be found depend upon internal organisation, and we thought it was necessary, before dealing with the subject on the wide scale indicated by my right hon. Friend, that we should see what relief we can expect from the National Service scheme which has been put into operation. My right hon. Friend is perfectly right in saying that the Government have never refused to allow the House of Commons to debate these matters in Secret Session. We never have. We realise that the House of Commons has a perfect right to take that course if it so desires. There is much to be said in its favour, but from the Government point of view there is something to be said against it. For one thing, my right hon. Friend is right in saying that even in a Secret Session it would not be possible to give all the facts and figures which have led the Government to take the course they feel compelled to take in this matter. My right hon. Friend asks me to give a promise. I have given it already. I have said, on behalf of the Government, that if the House shows real desire for discussion—[An HON. MEMBERS: "How it is to be shown?"] I do not think it would be very difficult to find out whether there is a real desire.
Who is to ask for it?
If there is a strong desire in the House I think the House would find some means of making it known. At any rate, the Government have shown no hostility, and they will be quite ready, after Easter, to consider whether or not it may be desirable to have a Secret Session. In regard to this particular Bill, my right hon. Friend, I think, exaggerates its defects. He speaks as if we were going, by this measure, to bring in an inferior— physically inferior— class of men. But precisely the same medical test will be applied to the million men over whom the Army authorities propose to take this power as are applied to all the men being recruited for the Army now. Therefore, there is no reason to suppose that men drawn from this source will be inferior to those obtained under former Acts. That ought to be evident from the fact that the total number we expect to get from the million men to be re-examined is something like 100,000. There will be no falling-off in respect of the medical test. We are dealing at this moment with the Amendment, which has relation to the pensions to be given to men who are taken into the Army. It was suggested by my right hon. Friend the late Prime Minister that the Government might make some concession with regard to those men dealt with by this Bill who have already been discharged from the Army, but are again called up after undergoing the re-examination, and subsequently again discharged as unfit. Since my right hon. Friend spoke I have had an opportunity of discussing this point with the Departments concerned, and I think I can show to the House that that is a course which ought not to be adopted. We ought not to apply a different principle to the men we are raising under this Bill to that which is applied to those raised under previous Acts. Therefore, the course to be adopted in regard to the men under this Bill is the course which you must adopt in regard to all men who are brought in under the Military Service Acts. I should like to point out to the House this further fact, that it is not altogether a question of mistakes alone. However careful the medical examiner may be, I am told there are many cases where at the time the medical examination takes place, it is impossible to diagnose the disease from which a man may be suffering, and therefore it may be, without any fault on the part of the examiner, that men are passed who are incapable of doing military service.
I wish the House to realise how the question stands. I should be very sorry to be the spokesman for a Government which took up an attitude which, in the opinion of hon. Members, was unfair to the men who are serving the country in this War. What has happened is this: At first, the principle adopted in regard to pensions, was that no man was to get any pension unless his disease was attributable to his military service. Of course, that left out a large number of people. This is not a new question, as my right hon. Friend the late Prime Minister stated, it was raised during the time of his Government, and it was debated in this House. I heard that discussion, and it was then agreed by the Government that it was not fair to the men. Even though their disease was not attributable to military service, if it had been aggra- vated by military service, and if the fact that they had served their country had made their case worse, then they also should be entitled to full pension privileges. These are the two stages of the question. [An HON. MEMBER: "Full pensions?"] Yes, originally it was proposed to give four-fifths, but it is now full, and the 80 per cent. proposal has been abandoned. These two stages left the men who did not come under either of these categories in the position that they received nothing. But that has been changed under the Royal Warrant. Men were entitled to receive a gratuity up to the extent, within the Warrant, of £100, but I myself, after listening to the Debate, agreed that the sum should be raised to £150. I wish the House to understand the principle on which the Government are acting, and have acted—both this Government and the previous Government, and it is not a principle on which we can go back. It is this. It is utterly unfair to the State to say that a man whose illness or disease is not due to, or accountable for, by military service should be left to be a permanent burden on the State, while the men who have actually fought and have given their services to the country get nothing. That is the principle we have laid down. If the House accepts that principle, there is one other consideration. I listened to the Debate on the Pensions Bill in regard to this matter, and I felt that there was a case, a real case from this point of view. It might be justly said by men who are either given the full pension or get only a gratuity—a very different thing—that under the Royal Warrant the people who pay the money— the Government—are to be judges in their own matter. There is something in the belief that there is a danger that administratively the Act will be so worked that men who ought to be given pensions may only get a gratuity. Obviously, I can make no definite promise. I have to consult not only the Department concerned, but the Cabinet. But I say, speaking for myself, I think it is a proper case, and I shall see that that case is carefully and sympathetically considered by the Government with a view, if they think there is a real case, of setting upon an independent tribunal, which would do nothing more than this—that in the case of men who may only get a gratuity and nothing more, it will review the decision and come to a final decision whether or not they are to get a gratuity or a pension.All cases?
All cases where a gratuity alone is given. I have already stated that it is obviously unfair that ft different principle should be applied to the men coining under this Bill, and to those who came in under previous Acts. I think I have shown that the Government, as I believe they ought to be, and as I think they have been from the beginning, are willing to consider the cases of the men. serving with every fairness, and to deal with any legitimate complaints that any of them who have had the misfortune to be rendered unfit through the services they have given to their country may have. I must add this. We cannot really make any condition of this kind a bargain whether or not this Bill is to be passed. There is no question, the House can imagine, on which the Government have a more direct responsibility than that of the way in which they are going to get the men who are deemed to be necessary in order to carry on the War. We say that this Bill is necessary for that purpose, and the House of Commons must take the responsibility if it refuses to assent to what the Government propose in a matter of this kind. At the same time, I am extremely anxious that the House and the country should realise that the sympathy which is felt in the House for these men is felt just as strongly by the Government, and that we are determined to give them everything which our duty to the State as a whole enables us to give them. I hope the House will be satisfied with the discussion which has taken place, and allow us now to come to a decision.
I am sure the House will have heard with great satisfaction the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that the case of the soldier discharged with a gratuity, on medical grounds, is to be made the subject of independent re- view. But the other questions raised by my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) does not seem to I have been fully appreciated and met. Still, as the matter can be raised again on the Committee stage of the Bill, I do not propose to deal with it now. I must, however, remind my right hon. Friend that what was asked for is this: That the case of the soldier who has already been discharged from the Army on medical grounds is quite different from that of the soldier who has not already passed through the Army, and it therefore is deserving of special treatment. If a soldier who has served his country is discharged for sickness or wounds—and the medical authorities do not discharge them lightly—and if you now submit him to reexamination, and again take him for the Army, then the absolute responsibility for taking that man ought to rest on the Army. If we were mistaken in those circumstances, I do not think any case ought to be brought up against him hereafter that he was intrinsically unfit to serve the Army. He has proved that he was incapable of serving because he has been discharged from the Army. If that is the case which my hon. Friend raises on the Committee stage of the Bill. I for one shall be very happy to support him.
After the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer it would be ungrateful of me if I did not withdraw my Amendment, and although this is only an assurance from the right hon. Gentleman he himself and those of us who are interested in the welfare of the soldiers are particularly gratified to know that now there is a possibility of an Appeal Court being set up to deal with all cases of men whose disability is not attributable to service. We hope these men will have a right to take to an independent tribunal their case for a pension before they are dispossessed of all gratuity. If that is done—and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will achieve that—a great step forward has been made in the matter of pensions, and I very warmly thank him.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Main Question again proposed.
I understand that a very considerable number of the men who will be affected by this Bill are engaged in agriculture, and, in view of the very critical condition of agriculture, very great anxiety is felt in regard to the time lost by these men having to attend for examination? Could any special provision be made to avoid any unnecessary delay of that kind?
Arrangements have already been made that no men will be taken before 1st May. But it goes much further than that. I explained that one of the reasons for the need of this Bill is the fact that we are not allowing any men essential to food production to be taken away, and that policy still holds.
Will you make arrangements to examine men in accordance with the period in which they were rejected before?
As far as possible.
Will a provision be put into the Bill to prevent men engaged in food production being taken, or is it only one
Division No. 19.]
| AYES.
| [8.15 p.m.
|
| Anstruther-Gray, Major William | Fletcher, John Samuel | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Archdale, Lieut. E. M. | Forster, Henry William | Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Foster, Philip Staveley | Neville, Reginald J. N. |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Gardner, Ernest | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Gibbs, Col. George Abraham | Nicholson, William G. (petersfield) |
| Barnes, Rt. Hon. George N. | Grant, J. A. | Norton-Griffiths, Sir J. |
| Barnett, Captain R. W. | Greenwood, Sir G. G. (Peterborough) | Paget, Almeric Hugh |
| Barrle, H. T. | Greig, Colonel James William | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Barton, William | Gretton, John | Pennefather, De Fonblanque |
| Bathurst, Col. Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.) | Griffith, Rt. Hon. Ellis Jones | Perkins, Walter Frank |
| Bathurst, Capt. Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Gulland, Rt. Hon. John William | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Beale, Sir William Phipson | Haddock, George Bahr | Phillips, Sir Owen (Chester) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Pratt, J. W. |
| Bellairs, Commander C. W. | Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) | Primrose, Hon. Neil James |
| Bonn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Harris, Henry Percy (Paddington, S.) | Pryce_Jones, Colonel E. |
| Bentham, G. J. | Haslam, Lewis | Radford, Sir George Haynes |
| Billing, Pemberton | Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Rawilnson, John Frederick Peel |
| Bird, Alfred | Henderson. Rt. Hon. Arthur (Durham) | Rawson, Colonel Richard H. |
| Blake, Sir Francis Douglas | Henry, Sir Charles | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Bliss, Joseph | Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | Rees, G. C. (Carnarvonshire, Arfon) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Richardson, Arthur (Rotherham) |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Hodge, Rt. Hon. John | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) |
| Boyton, James | Hope, James Fitealan (Sheffield) | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Brace, Rt. Hon. William | Hope, Lieut.-Col. J. A. (Midlothian) | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Home, Edgar | Rowlands, James |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Salter, Arthur Ciavell |
| Bull, Sir William James | Ingleby, Holcombe | Samuels, Arthur W. |
| Burgoyne, Alan Hughes | Jackson, Lt.-Col. Hon. F. S. (York) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Johnston, Christopher N. | Shaw, Hon. A. |
| Cawley Rt. Hon. Sir Fredk, (Prestwich) | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Shortt, Edward |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R.(Herts, Hitchin) | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney) | Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir F. E. (Walton) |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Kellaway, Frederick George | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Coats, Sir Stuart (Wimbledon) | Larmor, Sir J. | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (Aston) |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Stanlcy, Major Hon.G. F. (Preston) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Layland-Barrett. Sir F. | Steel,Maitland, A. D. |
| Cory, Sir Clifford John (St. Ives) | Levy, Sir Maurice | Stewart, Gershom |
| Cory, James Herbert (Cardiff) | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Stirling, Lieut.-Col. Archibald |
| Cowan, W. H. | Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwork, West) |
| Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Swift, Rigby |
| Craig, Col. James (Down, E.) | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Cralk, Sir Henry | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Croft, Lieut.-Col. Henry Page | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Tickler, T. G. |
| Currle, George W. | McCaw, William J. MacGeagh | Touche, Sir George Alexander |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Macmaster, Donald | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannon) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Watson, John B. (Stockton) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.) |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Macpherson, James Ian | Williams, Col. Sir Robert (Dorset, W.) |
| Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H. | Maden, Sir John Henry | Wilson-Fox, Henry |
| Dixon, C. H. | Malcolm, Ian | Winfrey, Sir Richard |
| Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir J. B. | Marshall, Arthur Harold | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-In-Furness) | Meux, Hon. Sir Hedworth | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Faber, George Denison (Clapham) | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Worthington Evans, Major Sir L. |
| Fell, Arthur | Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred | Yate, Colonel C. E. |
| Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Money, Sir L. G. Chiozza | |
| Finney, Samuel | Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness) | Lord Edmund Talbot and Mr. Beck. |
| Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue |
of those pledges which, although made in good faith, cannot really be supported afterwards by Statutory power?
I have already said all it is possible to say on that subject.
rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question, "That the Question be now put," put, and agreed to.
Question put accordingly, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
The House divided: Ayes, 175; Noes, 18.
NOES.
| ||
| Anderson, W. C. | King, J. | Snowden, Philip |
| Arnold, Sydney | Lamb, Sir Ernest Henry | Thomas, J. H. |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | |
| Hudson, Walter | Outhwaite, R. L. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| John, Edward Thomas | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Thomas Richardson and Mr. Richard |
| Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Sherwell, Arthur James | Lambert. |
| Jowett, F. W. | ||
Bill accordingly read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—[ Mr. J. Hope.]
War Pensions Bill
Order for consideration as amended, read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House in respect of the Amendments to Clause 1, standing on the Notice Paper in the name of the right hon. Member for Glasgow (Blackfriars Division), to be moved on re-committal."
I move this in order to insert Amendments which have been practically agreed to. It will be remembered that there was a long Debate in Committee as to the amount of the expenses of the committees to be paid by the Government and by the local authorities. The original proposal was not favourably accepted, and we were very strongly pressed upon the matter. Picas were put forward on behalf of the poorer counties which it was said would be struck hard by having to pay half of the expenses which were required from them under the Bill as it stood. We discussed, first of all, the possibility of meeting the wishes of the House by a scale which would relieve the poorer counties, but we found that impracticable. We have seen the Chancellor of the Exchequer two or three times' about it, and he in turn has seen the Treasury officials, and we now propose that instead of one-half the Government should find two-thirds of the cost, leaving only one third to be found by the local authorities. We hope that the House will now accept that proposal, because we think it is very generous having regard to the whole circumstances of the position. I will give a few figures which will show how the new proposals will work out. It will be remembered that I was asked the other night for figures as to how much it would cost and what would be the cost to the rates, but I could only give a few cases that had come to my knowledge. I have had some figures got out to show exactly how the payment of one-third by the local authorities instead of one-half will apply to the rates. I will only give a few. I find that Kent county will pay £800 instead of £1,200, and the £800 will involve a charge of one thirty-third of a penny in the £. Worcestershire will pay £300 instead of £500, and that will represent one-eighteenth of a penny. Newcastle will pay £200 instead of £300, which will involve a charge of one thirty-sixth of a penny. With respect to the poorer counties I would point out that often their expenses are very small. Some of the hon. Members on the Irish benches were much concerned about the poorer counties in Ireland. I will give a few instances. Tyrone, which is one of the poorest, if not the poorest, has expenses only amounting to £25 a year, and this wall involve a charge upon their rates of one sixty-sixth of a penny. Nairn, the poorest county in Scotland, will pay to the extent of one-twelfth of a penny. The worst case of all is that of Hoxton in the north-east of London, and the cost there, largely I suppose because of the very poor property, will be one-sixth of a penny. One-sixth of a penny is the largest amount that will be paid by any local authority or any poor county throughout the length and breadth of the Kingdom.Have you got figures for the county of Durham?
I am sorry to say I have not, but I think I remember something about Durham. The expenses there are rather high if my memory serves me right, and therefore they will have to pay something more than one thirty-sixth of a penny, but I feel sure it will be nothing like one-sixth. These figures have been got out to show the cases in which the counties would be hardest hit.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill accordingly considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
Clause 1—(Administrative Expenses Of Local And District Committees)
(2) The council concerned shall, at such times as the Local Government Board may direct, submit to the Board an estimate of the administrative expenses proposed to be incurred by the local committee for such period as the Board may direct, and the Board shall consider the estimate, and shall, if and so far as they consider the estimate reasonable, approve the estimate, and thereupon there shall be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament at such times and in such manner as the Treasury may direct, sums equal in the aggregate to one-half of the expenses incurred not exceeding one? half of such estimate as so approved, and the sums so paid shall be paid to the council.
(6) Where in the exercise of the powers conferred by Section two of the Naval and Military War Pensions, etc., Expenses Act, 1916, the council of a county or borough or urban district have, before the passing of this Act, made, or hereafter make, payments towards the administrative expenses of any local committee or district committee appointed under the principal Act incurred in respect of the period before the passing of this Act, and the aggregate amount of such payments exceeds the one-half of the administrative expenses of the committee for such period, a sum equal to the excess shall, if and so far as the Local Government Board have sanctioned or may hereafter approve such expenses, be repaid to the council out of moneys provided by Parliament.
I beg to move, in Subsection (2), to leave, out the word "one-half"["one-half of the expenses"], and to insert instead thereof the words "two-thirds."
I should like to thank the right hon. Gentleman for the way in which he has taken this matter up. Although I desired to sec the Treasury paying three-fourths, I am quite sure that the Committee generally will agree that the right hon. Gentleman has done all he can to meet us, and we should very gratefully accept the proposition he makes, that the Treasury should pay two-thirds, and leave one-third to be paid by the local authority. I should like to call attention to one matter which perhaps he may bring before the Statutory Committee, which body will now, I think, be more under his control, and that is that the local committees in the counties feel that if the demands that are being made upon them at the present time in connection with some of the circulars which are being sent down are con- tinued, there will undoubtedly be a very large increase in the administrative expenses. Circular 30, in connection with records and cases, has been sent down requiring monthly returns and three-monthly returns and an enormous number of returns which, when sent from the local committees to the sub-committees, although there are a large number of voluntary helpers, will inevitably lead to paid assistants in all the sub-committee districts. If you are to have this paid assistance forced upon you in connection with demands made from the central office, undoubtedly the administrative expenses will largely increase, with a consequent higher demand upon the rates and taxes. As the Minister of Pensions has taken this matter up, I hope that he will take steps to see that no more returns than are absolutely necessary are required. I think the monthly returns represent an excessive demand, and I hope that some means will be taken to limit what must become a considerable source of expense.
I desire to express regret that the right hon. Gentleman has accepted the Amendment pressed upon him in Committee. He has fallen into the error of imagining that the speakers in this House always express the views of the House. He has forgotten that there are many silent Members, and on the occasion in question the silent Members were backing him up in the position which he orignally took up, namely, that this expense should be divided half-and-half between the Treasury and the local authority. He ought to have discounted, with his knowledge of affairs, a good deal of what was said on that occasion, because each of the hon. Members who spoke visibly and audibly spoke from a brief. They had all got some brief from their local authority. Naturally the local authorities were very anxious that the expenses of this measure should be taken off their shoulders and put upon the Treasury. I do not believe that the hon. Members who stated those views believed in their heart of hearts that it was wise that the local authority should have very little expense and that the Treasury should have most of it. As my right hon. Friend said, when he brought in this half-and-half principle, there must be a check upon the expenditure of local authorities. Every one of us who has had any experience of local authorities knows that if there is not a sufficient check on them their expenditure is lavish and not as economical as it ought to be. I think that the idea was to stick to the half-and-half arrangement in most cases, but in the case of poor counties such as some in Ireland and in Scotland—I suppose there is no such thing as a poor county in England— there ought to be some prevision whereby the half payable by the county might be reduced and the balance borne by the Treasury. I hope that my right hon. Friend will remember in future that a majority of those who are silent in the House differ in view very often from those who speak.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendments made: Leave out the words "one-half" ["not exceeding one-half"], and insert instead thereof the words "two-thirds."
In Sub-section (6) leave out the words "one-half" ["exceeds the one-half"], and insert instead thereof the words "one-third."
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Bill reported; as amended in Committee and on re-committal, considered.
New Clause—(Application Of Principal Act In London)
Notwithstanding anything in the principal Act. there shall, within twelve months after the passing of this Act, or within three months after the termination of the War, whichever shall be the earlier, be set up in the City of London and in each Metropolitan borough a district committee; and the London County Council shall, for this purpose, submit to the Statutory Committee any necessary amendment of, or addition to, the scheme made under the principal Act for the County of London: Provided that for this purpose the Minister of Pensions shall be satisfied that arrangements are made so that the existing organisation of the local committee for London is not unduly disturbed.—[ Sir G. Touche.]
Clause brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move "That the Clause be read a second time."
This Clause is a variation of the Clause which I moved in Committee for the purpose of setting up district committees for the Metropolitan boroughs and the City of London. The position of the boroughs in this matter has been generally recognised. It has also been recognised that the alteration which involves the setting up of these committees presents a great many difficulties. In the Committee stage the War Pensions Minister suggested that the spirit of the Clause should be accepted, and he authorised my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Dudley to suggest that the advocates of district committees should meet the representatives of the London War Pensions Committee, and endeavour to agree on a Clause to be put down on the Report stage. On that understanding I withdrew the Clause which I moved in Committee. Since then we have met in conference. We found that agreement was not so easy. We came to an understanding on certain general lines. There was general recognition that there should be ample time to allow of negotiations for making any changes in the organisation and to allow borough councils, taking a large part in the work, to become better acquainted with it, and in particular that on the termination of the War changes would have to be made, and it was desirable to provide for these changes being made at no distant date. The question of the changes to take place on the termination of the War is one of the most important questions connected with what is now proposed. A great many of the voluntary workers are giving their services for the war period. They are working under high pressure. They will not be able to continue indefinitely, and many of them will probably fall off at the termination of the War. The nature of the work will also very largely change at the termination of the War. Therefore, it is desirable to proceed to establish the committee on a more permanent basis. The representatives of the borough councils at this conference expressed every desire to avail themselves of the services and experience of the voluntary workers whose services have boon of such great value. As a result we came to a provisional agreement last night. The terms of that agreement are set forth in this Clause. Substantially they are that the district committees should come into operation twelve months after the passing of the Act, or three months after the termination of the War, whichever should be the shorter period. That was accepted by the representatives of the borough councils and of the City of London, and it was to be submitted to-day to the London War Pensions Committee. I now understand that that committee desire some modification of what we thought was practically agreed on. Instead of the period which is set forth in the Clause they want the district committees to be established within six months after the termination of the War. That, of course, is a very substantial alteration. I cannot say that I think that effect is quite given to the spirit of the Clause as originally moved. It is a great disappointment that this further change has been suggested, and I should like to hear what my hon. Friend the Member for South Paddington has to say on the subject. But, subject to that, and to the views of the Pensions Minister, I and those who are associated with me, have no alternative but to accept this Amendment, if an agreed clause must be reached. With the time limit even as modified, I venture to think it would have the effect of enabling the intention of the original Act to be carried out eventually, though not so soon as the borough councils would have wished. It was clearly intended that the borough councils should have these district committees, and I earnestly hope that even in the amended form this Clause, if accepted by the Pensions Committee, will serve to remove what is a real grievance, and that it will close a controversy with good will on all sides, and will stimulate the interests of the borough councils which hitherto were rather chilled and snubbed in this matter, and will evoke from them a newer and keener and more active cooperation in this important work.In seconding this new Clause, I wish merely to say that at this time it is unnecessary to argue the relative merits of district committees as distinct from local committees, but the City of London Corporation feel very strongly on this point, and while we are anxious to hear what the London County Council say in the matter, we do feel that we cannot let it go unchallenged. I hope, therefore, that the Pensions Minister will see his way to make, if not this concession, at least the concession in this sense. We are not standing out for actually the number of months mentioned in the Amendment. I am sure my hon. Friend will agree that it is the principle for which we are contending, and that we are quite willing to concede the details. We want it to be distinctly understood that the City of London Corporation feel that they have a very real grievance in this matter, and that they want it put right. We hope, therefore, that the London County Council will see our aspect of it as well as their own, and support us in our contention.
I am not able to speak on behalf of the London County Council, tout only on behalf of the London War Pensions Committee. I was informed, however, by the Parliamentary agent of the London County Council that the Parliamentary Committee of that body met this afternoon and considered whether the Clause proposed by my hon. Friend opposite ought to be placed before the council before it is finally debated. Up to the present there has been no opportunity for the London County Council to be consulted, and the Parliamentary Committee do not feel that they can come to a decision themselves, without examination of the matter by the London County Council, and before the Minister of Pensions has finally decided to accept that Clause. The London War Pensions Committee met this afternoon and decided that they were willing to fall in with the suggestion of my right hon. Friend and that the spirit of this Amendment moved by my hon. Friend should be accepted:
They considered carefully the Clause which my hon. Friend the Member for Islington has on the Paper, but they are unwilling to agree to that. Their reason is:"The London War Pensions Committee are willing to agree to a Clause being inserted fixing six months after the War as the time within which this committee should be set up."
They appreciate the desire for a definite period rather than depend on the uncertain duration of the War. No one can say which period will be the shorter, but it is certain that if it is prolonged the difficulty of finding volunteer workers will be an ever-increasing factor. Therefore I should be prepared to accept the Clause submitted by my hon. Friend, provided if he accepts certain words which would make it read as follows: "Notwithstanding anything in the principal Act, there shall, within six months after the termination of the War, be set up in the City of London and each Metropolitan borough a district committee," and then the rest of the hon. Member's Clause would stand as it is. I feel bound to point out that the London County Council, which is the body that made the existing scheme, has a right to be consulted. It has not been consulted, and I do not know what the Amendment may be, but it might be dealt with in another place. I entirely reciprocate what was said by the hon. Member for Islington, namely, that we should make sure of the good will of the borough councils in carrying out this work."No one can tell what the position will be twelve months hence. The War may still be raging, and the difficulties connected with the change may be greater instead of less. On the other hand, when the War terminates, a good deal of the work which calls for the services of a large number of voluntary workers will grow less or cease, and the appropriate time will have come to set up district committees to deal with the more permanent work connected with pensions and the case of disabled men. and remembering the rather uncertain duration of the War."
The suggestion that the term of twelve months should be dropped is one on which we may arrive at a friendly settlement. I submit that if twelve months were allowed to remain, and we inserted six months instead of three months after the termination of the War, we might have ground for a satisfactory settlement—twelve months from the date of the passing of the Bill, and not sooner than six months after the termination of the War, would give a reasonable time. I would, therefore, submit to the Minister of Pensions that he might accept the suggestion which I make, and which I venture to press upon him, and the matter might be further considered and dealt with in another place. The great object is to obtain a really friendly settlement, so that the whole difficulty may be removed.
I think we are approaching a friendly settlement, and that we may be congratulated on that fact. I am willing to fall in with the suggestion of the hon. Member opposite, but I would ask him to defer the matter for the present and withdraw his Amendment and allow the county council, who, I believe, are to meet on Monday to consider the subject. I hope my hon. Friend will fall in with that suggestion.
I have had no opportunity of consulting those associated with me in this Amendment, but I realise from what has fallen from the right hon. Gentleman that it would be well to withdraw it, and I certainly fall in with the suggestion he has made.
Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1—(Administrative Expenses Of Local And District Committees)
(1) The administrative expenses of any local committee, or of any sub-committee thereof, established under the Naval and Military War Pensions, etc., Act, 1915 (hereinafter referred to as the principal Act), to an amount not exceeding such estimate as is hereinafter mentioned, shall be defrayed by the council of the county, or borough, or urban district for whose area the local committee is established, and the administrative expenses of any district committee appointed under the principal Act shall be defrayed as part of the expenses of the local committee for the county in whose area the district is situate.
(2) The council concerned shall, at such times as the Local Government Board may direct, submit to the Board an estimate of the administrative expenses proposed to be incurred by the local committee for such period as the Board may direct and the Board shall consider the estimate, and shall, if and so far as they consider the estimate reasonable, approve the estimate, and thereupon there shall be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament at such times and in such manner as the Treasury may direct, sums equal in the aggregate to two-thirds of the expenses incurred not exceeding two-thirds of such estimate as so approved, and the sums so paid shall be paid to the council.
(3) Every local committee shall at such times as the Local Government Board may direct submit to the council of the county, borough, or urban district by whom the administrative expenses of the committee are to be defrayed, an estimate of the administrative expenses proposed to be incurred by the committee for such period as the Board may direct, and from time to time submit supplementary estimates.
(4) The expenses of a council under this Act, so far as not defrayed out of moneys provided by Parliament, shall be defrayed out of the proceeds of such fund or rate as may be directed by the Local Government Board:
Provided that if a separate local committee has been established for any borough or urban district in a county the expenses of the local committee for the county shall be treated as expenses for special county purposes from contribution to which the borough or urban district shall be exempt.
(5) For the purposes of the foregoing provisions of this Section the administrative expenses of a local or sub-committee or district committee shall include travelling expenses and compensation for loss of remunerative time in the case of members of the committee or any sub-committee thereof calculated in accordance with Regulations made by the Minister of Pensions subject to the approval of the Treasury.
(6) Where in the exercise of the powers conferred by Section two of the Naval and Military War Pensions, etc., Expenses Act, 1916, the council of a county or borough or urban district have, before the passing of this Act, made, or hereafter make, payments towards the administrative expenses of any local committee or district committee appointed under the principal Act incurred in respect of the period before the passing of this Act, and the aggregate amount of such payments exceeds the one-third of the administrative expenses of the committee for such period, a sum equal to the excess shall, if and so far as the Local Government Board have sanctioned or may hereafter approve such expenses, be repaid to the council out of moneys provided by Parliament.
I beg to Move, in Subsection (1), after the word "such" ["exceeding such"], to insert the word "approved."
The Amendment may be regarded as a mere drafting proposal, but I think it would remove any uncertainty that may arise in the future as to the estimate upon which the arrangement is to be based. There would be no uncertainty whatever in the future if the estimate was approved, and the fact of correspondence would be no difficulty whatever.I accept the Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to Move, in Sub-section (2) to leave out the words, "The council concerned"[(2)"The council concerned shall"], and insert instead thereof the words "Every local committee."
This Amendment and two others which stand on the Paper in the name of my right hon. Friend are all concerned with the same point, namely, to make clear the method whereby the estimate will be submitted by the local committee to the local authority, and by them to the Local Government Board; and I think I had better make a statement in moving this Amendment. The Amendments are neces- sary, because in the Committee stage the Bill was amended and left in a rather obscure position. The effect of the first Amendment is perfectly simple. It comes to this: The local committee will submit their estimate, and their estimate will go to the local authority, and the local authority can approve or modify it, and will forward the estimate so approved and modified, to the Local Government Board, who will finally approve of it. I quite agree that the Amendments, as they appear on the Paper, do not carry that out, and I have been in consultation with my right hon. Friend, and I propose to move them in rather a different form. The first Amendment now stands exactly as it is on the Paper. The next Amendment will read, in Subsection (2), after the word "direct"["may direct"], to insert the words "and may from time to time submit for approval supplementary estimates, and the council shall within such time as the Board may direct, forward to the Board all such estimates, together with an intimation of their approval, or modify as they may think fit. "The effect of that will be to secure altogether the control of the local authority. The local authority will have the right to disapprove or modify. Subsection (2), with the Amendments inserted, will read," Every local committee shall at such time as the Local Government Board may direct, submit for approval to the council by which the administrative expenses are to be defrayed the estimate of the administrative expenses proposed to be incurred by the local committee in such a period as the Board may direct, and may from time to time submit for approval supplementary estimates, and the council shall within such time as the Local Government Board may direct forward to the Board all such estimates, together with an intimation of their approval, or modify as they may think fit, The Board shall consider all estimates so submitted and shall if and so far as they consider any such estimate reasonable, and the rest as it appears.I did not quite follow the words read out, and I am not quite sure whether they meet the objections of some local authorities. In Committee the Parliamentary Secretary accepted in principle the contention that the local elected authority should have the right not only to criticise, but, if necessary, refer back the estimates of the Pensions Committee. That was the object of my various Amendments. As far as I can gather from the rather complex wording of the latest Amendments that difficulty is met. I do want an assurance that the elected authority which is responsible for raising a portion of the money out of the rates, shall have direct control, and, if necessary, can refer back for consideration those estimates which they consider excessive. If we have an assurance that the words have that intention and will bring about that result I, for one, shall be satisfied. The wording does not make that quite clear even now.
9.0 P.M.
I think, when my hon. Friend reads this and the consequential Amendments, he will find that it is really perfectly clear. We are all agreed on the position. It is of great importance that Parliament should make the position perfectly manifest. The obligation of finding this money is placed on the local authorities, and, therefore, any estimate submitted to them must be submitted for approval and sent on by them only if approved or as modified by them. The Government Department, which is giving two-thirds of the money, has also properly the right of approval. The two sources of revenue, that as to two-thirds and that as to one-third, imply conscious approval of the authority pertaining to that portion. As long as that is made clear, I think we are all agreed. In my reading, the Amendments to be proposed make the matter perfectly clear. I want to put on record what we intend to have in this matter. We are grateful to the Government for agreeing, and I think we have now got it into line with the ordinary methods of local government in this country.
I desire to thank the right hon. Gentleman for having considered, the suggestion I made in Committee. I am quite sure this is the right way now. I did not like the Clause as it was printed in Committee. It seems to me to be quite correct now, and I am perfectly satisfied.
Before these Amendments are passed I should like to give the assurance asked for by the hon. Member (Mr. P. A. Harris) as to the local authority having a controlling voice in regard to expenditure out of the local pates. I can assure my hon. Friend, whether or not that appeared in the Clause before, it is in now.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendments made: In Subsection (2), after the word "submit"["submit to the Board"], insert the words "for approval."
After the word "Board"["submit to the Board"], insert the words "the council by which the administrative expenses of the committee are to be defrayed."— [ Sir A. Griffith-Boscawen.]
I beg to move, after the word "direct"["as the Board may direct"], to insert the words "and may from time to time so submit supplementary estimates, and the council shall within such time as the Board may direct forward to the Board all such estimates, together with an intimation of their approval or modified as they may think fit."
I did not catch whether the words "for approval," which appeared in an earlier line, are applied to the estimates submitted by the committee to the council.
Yes.
Is it quite clear that the words "such estimates" include both the original and supplementary estimates?
I think there is no doubt that they do include both the original and any supplementary estimates.
Will the hon. Gentleman accept the suggestion that the words "for approval" might be inserted either after the word "submit" or after the word "estimates"?
It is rather difficult to follow the words just now, but if they are necessary they shall be put in in another place.
When the hon. Member spoke a few minutes ago he used the words "for approval," but in the form of the Amendment just read out those words do not appear.
I put them in before, in the previous Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendments made: Leave out the words "the estimate"["shall consider the estimate"], and insert instead thereof the words "all estimates so submitted."— [Sir A. Griffith-Boscawen.]
Leave out Sub-section (3).—[ Mr. Barnes.]
Clause 4—(Alteration Of Purposes For Which Voluntary Funds May Be Applied In Certain Cases)
Where any fund has been raised by voluntary contributions for the purpose of providing assistance in some specific form to disabled officers or men or to the wives, widows, or dependants of officers or men, and provision has been made for such assistance out of public moneys, the Minister of Pensions may, on the application of the trustees or managing body of the fund, after taking such steps as he thinks desirable for ascertaining the wishes of subscribers, make with the concurrence of such trustees or managing body an order authorising the fund to be applied to such other purposes for the benefit of disabled officers or men or the wives, widows, children, or dependants of officers or men as may be specified in the order, and on the making of any such order the fund may be applied accordingly.
I beg to move, after the word "widows"["or to the wives, widows"] to insert the word "children."
This is merely a consequential Amendment upon the word "children" being inserted later on in the Clause. I think it ought also to govern the earlier part of the Clause.We accept this.
Amendment agreed to.
Clause 5—(Power To Chairman And V Ice-Chairman Of Statutory Committee To Sit In Parliament)
A person who holds the office of Chairman or Vice-Chairman of the Statutory Committee shall not by reason of his office be incapable of being elected to or voting in the Commons House of Parliament.
:I beg to move to leave out Clause 5. I may say that through a misunderstanding this Motion was not made in Committee when my right hon. Friend made the proposition, and many of my Friends who are interested in the matter did not know that it was coming on at the particular time it did. My right hon. Friend stated on the Committee stage that his only purpose in having this Clause was to provide for the project he had in hand that the hon. Member for Dudley (Sir A. Griffith-Boscawen) should be associated with him on the Statutory Committee. So far as that purpose is concerned, I offer no opposition. Personally, I am very pleased to see the hon. Member for Dudley associated with this important Department, and I have little doubt he will do his duty there very successfully. He is one of the oldest Members of the House, and I am sure his appointment is very popular. But I want to know exactly what my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions has in his mind. Is the hon Member for Dudley going to be Chairman of the Statutory Committee, or is he not? It would save a tremendous amount of speaking on my part if I knew exactly what the intentions are, but obviously my right hon. Friend has not yet made up his mind.
I have made it up, and I stated my mind the other night, and I have nothing to add to that.
Well, the words on the Paper do not give me the information for which I am asking, nor does the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the other night. He said he had a project that the hon. Member for Dudley was going to be associated with him, but he did not say whether he would be chairman or vice-chairman, and surely we are entitled to know that. I think the House ought to know where it stands in this matter, and I do not see the need for any mystery about it. Why should we not know what the position of the hon. Member for Dudley will be? My principal complaint is, first that we do not know exactly, and, secondly, that as it is drawn, this Clause permits both the persons who may be chairman and vice-chairman to occupy seats in this House. Does my right hon. Friend deny that? I think, if I read the Clause, any hon. Member who doubts will agree with me. The Clause says:
That is the chairman and the vice-chairman. The Clause says, "Neither shall be prevented from sitting in this House." That is why I offer opposition. In the first place, I say one is sufficient, and I say that if the hon. Gentleman occupies that post—and I can conceive him occupying no other—it is quite unnecessary to bring in the vice-chairman. His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales was chairman, and retired. There is a vacancy which has not yet been filled. The vice-chairman is Mr. Cyril Jackson. I maintain that this Clause as it stands at present gives authority to Mr. Cyril Jackson, as vice-chairman of the Statutory Committee, to sit in this House. To that I am opposed. I will oppose it in every possible way. In the first place, I object that a Civil servant should have the right to sit on that Bench with Ministers. Heaven knows that the Bench is crowded enough already—perhaps over-crowded! We have not yet gone so far as to bring in Civil servants and give them the right to sit on the Front Bench with their chief! There is another point. When Mr. Cyril Jackson's appointment was proposed in this House I was one of the few who criticised it, not because I had any feeling against him myself because I never saw him, nor do I know anything about him, but it was well known that he was a party organiser, and chairman of the Moderate party in the County Council. He afterwards retired, and got this post. That is past history. We were told that he was to be appointed at a salary of £l,500. The House accepted that. Then the House was told that as he was not taking any pension he ought to be paid £1,750. The House passed that with a protest. Here, however, you have a proposal to give him £400 a year more—for that is what it means. I think we ought to have some defence of this proposal before it is passed."5. A person who holds the office of chairman or vice-chairman of the Statutory Committee shall not by reason of his office be incapable of being elected to or voting in the Commons House of Parliament."
The cost of living has risen!
That may be so, but I maintain that we ought to have more information than we have yet got in regard to this Clause. If my hon. Friend can show me that the Clause does not do what I maintain it does do, I will listen with the greatest interest. I hope that he will be able to give me information on the varous points I have put. If I am not satisfied more than I am at present on the matter, I shall take the opinion of the House upon it.
I beg to second the Amendment. I also would have raised this in Committee had I been present in the House.
On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. Is it necessary to have a seconder to an Amendment proposed by a right hon. Gentleman?
I will take the Amendment without a seconder, and then call upon the hon. Member.
As I cannot second my right hon. Friend, I may be allowed to support him. I should have supported this proposal in Committee, for a very obvious reason. I hope the House will remember what are the facts in regard to the Statutory Committee. There are two posts in that Committee—that of chairman and vice-chairman. One or other of these posts can have a salary attached to it, but not both. The Prince of Wales was made chairman, and Mr. Cyril Jackson was made vice-chairman with a salary of £1,750. I always thought it was a stupid arrangement that a Civil servant with a salary of £1,750 should be able to preside over a Statutory Committee appointed by this House for certain purposes; that is to say, that a man whose conduct the whole committee could always call in question should have the right, and has the right now, to preside over the meetings of the Statutory Committee. What we ought to have had was a sensible arrangement whereby neither the chairman nor the vice-chairman were paid, and whereby Mr. Cyril Jackson should have been the permanent secretary of the Statutory Committee, just as we have a permanent secretary for each of our particular Departments.
The proposal in this Bill amounts to this: that my right hon. Friend the Minister for Pensions desires, and naturally desires—as a matter of fact, is instructed by the Ministry of Pensions Bill—to keep in touch with the Statutory Committee and to co-ordinate its work. Obviously either the Minister of Pensions or the Parliamentary Secretary ought to be chairman of the Statutory Committee. Presumably the Minister of Pensions has sufficient to do at the Ministry of Pensions without taking upon himself the chairmanship of the Committee. The Parliamentary Secretary can quite easily do that. I agree with my hon. Friend that the Member for Dudley, who is Parliamentary Secretary, is showing a very great devotion to this subject of pensions, and a very considerable amount of energy and ability in the matter. I presume that I am as keen a critic of the pensions administration as anybody. So far as I am concerned, there is no man I should more readily see in the chair of the Statutory Committee than my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary. But at the present moment he enjoys a Ministerial salary. If he becomes chairman of the Statutory Committee he does not lose that salary, but retains the post of Parliamentary Secretary, and goes down and presides, as the representative of the Ministry of Pensions should preside, over the meetings of the Statutory Committee. If this Clause in the Bill is carried by the House you open the door to this possibility. I do not say it will ever happen, but it is possible. We could have in the House of Commons a Minister of Pensions and a Parliamentary Secretary, and a separate chairman and vice-chairman of the Statutory Committee. You could actually have four Ministers on that Front Bench dealing with the subject of pensions. The Pensions Minister would never dream of that taking place, but that is a possibility of this Bill. There is another possibility which ought to be guarded against. This is a purely impersonal remark, and I hope it will be regarded as such; but, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, suppose you have this Clause carried and put in the Bill and you have four men appointed. If these men ceased to be Members of Parliament they could still hold the other two posts as paid officials, and you would get two patronage posts for two men who might be in Parliament and lose their seats at any moment. That is an entirely wrong position. If my right hon. Friend will agree to the deletion of this Clause, I will put forward a suggestion with which, I think, we might all agree. That is that my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley should at once succeed the Prince of Wales as chairman of the Statutory Committee and that Mr. Cyril Jackson should remain as the paid official; if you like, at some other time rearrange the secretaryship. That will content the House of Commons. We shall then know that the Minister of Pensions and his Parliamentary Secretary have got control of the two specific and principal parts of the pensions matter, and I think the whole thing will be ended. I agree with my fight hon. Friend that this question raises a serious point with regard to a Ministry which is growing so large that, as has often been suggested in this House, they scarcely know each other and, in order to distinguish them from other Members of the House, it will soon be necessary for members of the Government to wear a brassard, or something of that sort, in order that we may know which is which. Here is a proposal to add another two. I hope what has been advanced by my right hon. Friend and myself will be sufficient to convince the Government as to the desirability of deleting this Clause.I can assure my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy that there is no mystery attaching to this proposal in the slightest, and I am sorry if I gave the impression the other night that that was so. The sole and only object underlying the Clause is that my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary should be put upon the Statutory Committee either as chairman or vice-chairman. It was put in in that form because we followed the 1915 Act, which says that either the chairman or vice-chairman may be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament, such salary as the Treasury may determine. Therefore, without this Clause, if my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary were appointed to either one of these offices, he might have to submit himself for re-lection. It is because of that doubt that the Clause is proposed. I can assure my hon. Friend we do not want to create any further paid offices. The Parliamentary Secretary would be unpaid if chairman, and he would be unpaid if vice-chairman. Therefore, there is ho additional £400 involved or anything of that kind. There is no further payment either to him or anybody else. I have not the slightest knowledge of Mr. Cyril Jackson's political ambitions, if he has got any. So far as I can judge, I should say he has not got any. The only reason for mentioning the chairman or vice-chairman is that that is the wording of the 1915 Act, and therefore we must make provision to safeguard the Parliamentary Secretary, either in respect of the one office or the other. I think there is some disability attaching to a Civil servant sitting in the House.
This is overriding it.
We are quite willing to reconsider the matter, and ascertain whether or not it is open to that possibility. If it is, we will have the wording rearranged.
Take out the words "or vice-chairman." That would meet it.
I am very glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman say he is willing to reconsider this matter, because when it was discussed in Committee it came rather suddenly upon some of us, and I was not at all satisfied when the Clause was passed. We should be extremely glad to see the Parliamentary Secretary as chairman or vice-chairman of the Statutory Committee provided the work was carried on in co-ordination with the Pensions Minister. We consider the matter quite apart from the personal side. This is really a serious precedent. In order that you may have one particular person in a particular office, you are going to put in a Clause giving for all time the right to two people to come to this House without re-election. It is really a serious precedent, and I think it is a Clause which has not been at all clearly worded, and the position of chairman or vice-chairman is left very uncertain. It certainly ought to be limited to one of the two offices, and for myself I hope the Government may find some other means of getting what they desire, rather than putting a permanent Clause into an Act of Parliament.
This is not a personal question at all. On the contrary, it is a very great question of principle. I happen to know Mr. Cyril Jackson and his suitability for this position. I was on the county council with him, and, as a matter of fact, I was deputy-chairman when he was chairman of the council, and a more efficient and capable servant could not be found. But once having become a Civil servant, his position should be that of a Civil servant, and the representative of this House should be the chairman, and not junior to, and subordinate to, the paid Civil servant who represents this Department. I would suggest to the Pensions Minister that the proper and simplest course is to leave out the words "vice-chairman." That would meet the objection and criticisms of hon. Gentlemen, and make it clear that the paid permanent Civil servant is subordinate to a Member of this House.
I think the best way would be if my right hon. Friend would allow this Clause to go out for the moment, and bring up a considered Clause in another place. I cannot personally approve the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken. My own view is that any one representative of the (Statutory Committee who desires to be in this House should be eligible to be in this House. But I do agree there is no occasion to have two representatives of the Statutory Committee as such, apart from obscure Members like myself, who happen to be members of the Statutory Committee, and hear what is good for ourselves in this House. But there is no occasion to have more than one representative in the sense under consideration.
I venture to press upon the right hon. Gentleman that that which has been expressed so generally could be met if he could allow Clause 5 to be deleted, and alter his Amendment on the Paper so that it would then read:
I think that would fully meet the case, and provide a means of dealing with the matter in a way that is so generally approved in the House."During the continuance of the present Parliament any person who is a Member of this House who is appointed to either of those offices shall not by reason of such appointment vacate his seat as such Member."
If we adopted the hon. Member's suggestion, it would mean that we should delete the Clause, and then add something to it. What we ought to do is to take the very good advice of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kirkcaldy and delete the Clause altogether. That is the only sensible and clear way of doing it, and I am surprised the House has not at once jumped to the position. The hon. Member began by saying there was nothing personal, and then he launched into an elaborate testimonial to a friend, one which I am sure was deserved. I know that Mr. Cyril Jackson is an admirable person in every respect. This is a personal matter, and the only way to deal with it is to leave out the Clause altogether. May I be allowed to rebut a charge that was made against me that I am a vegetarian. I assure the House that I am nothing of the sort, and do not intend to be as long as Lord Devon port allows me a little meat.
If we delete this Clause, there will be considerable difficulty, and we shall run the risk of defeating the object which we all have in view. We have to make up our minds whether the Clause is to remain, and, if so, in what form. I should be disposed to strike out the words "or vice-chairman," and then it will read, "a person who holds the office of chairman of the Statutory Committee shall not by reason of his office be incapable of being elected to or voting in the Commons House of Parliament."
Would not the effect of that be that if any person who is already a Member of this House was elected vice-chairman of the Statutory Committee, he would thereby lose his seat in this House?
I have an Amendment to cover that point.
Suppose Mr. Cyril Jackson was made chairman of the Statutory Committee, that would enable him to sit in this House, and undoubtedly he would still be a Civil servant.
May I suggest that the Clause should read "a person who holds the office of chairman or vice-chairman of the Statutory Committee, and who is not paid in connection therewith, shall be entitled to sit in this House." Suppose the hon. Member for Dudley (Colonel Sir A Griffith-Boscawen) was elected chairman or vice-chairman, or any other Gentleman sitting on the Front Bench, and they were paid in respect of their Ministerial functions, they should not be deprived of their right of sitting in this House.
We really want the Law Officers here in order to be sure what we are doing. I do not see why this Clause should not go out altogether. The vice-chairman is paid, and he does all the work of the Committee, and therefore you cannot stop his salary. I see the Solicitor-General for Scotland on the Front Bench, and I hope the Minister of Pensions will appeal to him on this question of law. So long as the vice-chairman is paid, and he must be paid, there is no necessity for this Clause.
What my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Middleton (Sir R. Adkins) said is quite true, and all we want to make sure of is that a paid Civil servant shall not sit in this House. If my right hon. Friend will assure us that if any other alteration is found to be necessary he will put it in, I shall be content if he takes out the words "or chairman."
I think the best way would be to do what has been suggested.
I have allowed this conversation to go on in order to enable the House to arrive at a decision. Would it not be more satisfactory to allow the Clause to read, "a person who holds the office of chairman or vice-chairman of the Statutory Committee shall not if he does not receive a salary in respect of that office by reason of his office be incapable of being elected to or voting in the Commons House of Parliament."
I do not know whether the question is personal or not, but there seems to be a certain personal element in it. Perhaps the difficulties would be lessened by the following words, "A person who holds the office of chairman, and who is a Member of the Commons House of Parliament, shall not during the continuance of the present Parliament, by reason of his office, vacate his seat." That covers completely the question of any Civil servant, and reserves the appointment of a Member of this House to that office.
We have already suggested a similar proposal.
I think the best course would be, first, to withdraw the Amendment in meeting the Clause.
I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Could my right hon. Friend not agree to take out the words "or Vice-Chairman?" The right hon. Gentleman knows that the post of vice-chairman is really the post of secretary of that committee, because he does the work and is responsible for it. It was stupid when the War Pensions Bill was passed to have made this arrangement, and we should have had a chairman and vice-chairman unpaid and a paid secretary, but the House decided to go in for a paid vice-chairman. Cannot my right hon. Friend take out the words "or vice-chairman"? That would settle the whole thing.
I have to put some question to the House. If the hon. Gentleman will move to leave out the words "or vice-chairman," the discussion can continue.
I beg to move to leave out the words "or vice-chairman."
I beg to second the Amendment.
I thought that we had really agreed to put in the proviso that a person, if receiving a salary in connection with either of these posts, should not be eligible, and under a previous Act of Parliament a person in either of these posts might conceivably be receiving a salary. After all, the Statutory Committee ought to be allowed to exercise a free choice within the limits of the Act of Parliament which created them, and as we have already secured by the words which my right hon. Friend is prepared to move that any person receiving a salary as chairman or vice-chairman shall not be eligible to sit in this House, I would appeal to the House not further to curtail the rights of this committee in the choice of its chairman or vice-chairman. I would appeal to the House to allow the committee within those limits to do what it thinks best with regard to its own members, and to be content with the Amendment of my right hon. Friend, which makes it quite clear that no paid official of the committee shall be eligible to come into this House while he is still paid.
I really do not see why the House of Commons should be spending its time in considering the position of the vice-chairman of the Statutory Committee. It seems to me that we are endeavouring to legislate for somebody for whom the House of Commons is not called upon to legislate. The intention is that the chairman of the Statutory Committee shall not lose his seat because of the fact that he occupies that office without salary. That is the purpose. Why, therefore, begin to deal with the whole position of the vice-chairman? It is entirely unnecessary. Some time ago my right hon. Friend said, "Take out the words or vice-chairman," and I agreed. That has now been departed from. I suggest that the simplest thing would be to take out those words. We have not even yet been told who is going to be the chairman. If we had known from the beginning that the hon. Member for Dudley (Colonel Sir A. Griffith-Boscawen) was going to be chair- man, the thing would have been more simple. I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman takes out the words "or vice-chairman" and accepts the Amendment. That will be the end of the Debate.
Evidently that is the sense of the House so far as I have been able to gather it, and I will move to make the Clause read:
"A person who holds the office of chairman of the Statutory Committee and does not receive a salary in respect of his office as such shall not by reason of his office be incapable of being elected to or voting in the Commons House of Parliament."
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendments made: After the word "committee," insert the words "and does not receive a salary in respect of his office as such."
At end of the Clause, add the words "and if during the continuance of the present Parliament any person who is a Member of that House is appointed to that office he shall not by reason of such appointment vacate his seat as such Member."—[ Mr. Barnes.]
Bill read the third time, and passed.
Army (Annual) Act (1916) Amendment Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
This very short Bill is a measure to give formal authority to the billeting rates which have been in force since 1st December last. Early in December I announced that the billeting rates had been increased. The Army Orders carrying those rates into effect were laid upon the Table of the House at the earliest moment. The rates which are now current have been approved by this House in the Army (Annual) Act, which was passed a night or two ago, and the only object of this Bill is to give the formal authority of Parliament to billeting rates of which Parliament has tacitly approved already. I only introduce it in order that the formal authority of this House may be obtained. It is a very simple and formal measure, and I hope that the House will allow me to take it through its various stages tonight.It seems rather a curious thing to bring new billeting charges into force in December and then only obtain the permission of the House for them in the following March. Of course, in these days, we are very thankful that the permission of the House should be asked for anything. We are thankful for the observance, at any rate, of that amount of Parliamentary control, and, even if it is after the event, it is worth something. I hope, however, that this will not be done frequently, and I hope that this will not be a hardy annual, like the Army (Annual) Bill itself. With that remark I shall content myself. Having given a warning, I hope I shall never have to repeat it again.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time.
Resolved, "That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Committee on the Bill."— [ Mr. Forster.]
Bill accordingly considered in Committee, and reported without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.
Naval Discipline (Delegation Of Powers) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I bog to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
10.0 P.M. I have to submit an extremely small and very definite administrative change in existing naval law. Prior to June of last year, under Section 58, Sub-section (10), of the Naval Discipline Act, 1866, the only person authorised, he being the senior naval officer present, to convene a court-martial on any person serving in the Grand Fleet was the Commander-in-Chief of the Grand Fleet. Of course, he had with him officers under his command who held the Royal Warrant authorising them to order and convene courts-martial, and in their time no doubt they had ordered and convened courts-martial, and in all human probability in due course they would do so again when once more in independent command. Nevertheless, there was only one senior naval officer present with the Grand Fleet and there- fore all their functions in this respect were vested in him. Of course, that law never contemplated such an aggregation of ships as is to be found in the Grand Fleet. Therefore, Section 58, Sub-section (10), of the Naval Discipline Act, 1S66, sound as it was, imposed an unnecessarily heavy and unforeseen amount of administrative work on the Commander-in-Chief of the Grand Fleet. In May of last year Parliament amended this by passing a small Act, the Naval Discipline (Delegation of Powers) Act, 1916. That Act made it lawful for the Commander-in-Chief of the Grand Fleet to delegate his powers in this respect during the present War to the several Vice-Admirals in command of squadrons forming part of his Fleet. That was simply an act of administrative devolution, designed to relieve the Commander-in-Chief. I made it quite clear in asking for that devolution that it was the aggregation of the ships in one Fleet that made it necessary, an aggregation by no means foreseen or forecasted when the original Section 58 was passed. I made it quite clear that it was not an increase of crime that rendered it necessary. It would be most ungracious and ungrateful to suggest that. I say the same as regards the further devolution I am now proposing in this little Bill. When the devolution which the House gave us to the Vice-Admirals last year was before the House my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Maidstone (Commander Bellairs) put this to me, "Why not devolve upon all Flag officers? This will give power to convene courts-martial not only to Vice-Admirals but to Rear-Admirals." That was the proposition he put. Of course, such officers have held Admiralty warrants, have ordered and convened courts-martial, and would do so again, no doubt, when in independent commands I put the suggestion he made to the proper authorities, but it was thought desirable to restrict the devolution to the extent then proposed, namely, to the Vice-Admirals, and it was so approved by Parliament. I now come to ask leave to make this simple addition— to alter the words in last year's Act "Vice-Admirals" and "Vice-Admirals" "as the case may be to" Flag Officers "and" Flag Officer"' as the case may be. That is, we adopt the original suggestion of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Maidstone. The effect will be that we shall extend the process of devolution not only to the Vice-Admirals, as we did last year, but to the Rear-Admirals, as he then suggested I am sorry he is not here, because he put it to me then and we did not see our way at the time to adopt it. We might have done it, then we should not have had to make two bites at a cherry. That is the sole purpose of the Bill, to extend the process of devolution from Vice-Admirals to Rear-Admirals. I would ask the House, as it is desired to get this Bill passed, to follow the practice we have just adopted and agree to its remaining stages being taken to-night.In proposing a Bill of this kind, I know that the right hon. Gentleman does not mean to propose any increase of punishment.
Oh, no!
When Bills of this kind are brought forward, it is well that the sailor should know that. There is a sort of mysterious sound in the Naval Discipline Bill. It covers so many things that it would be well for the right hon. Gentleman to let it be known through the House in what sense there is an advantage for the men in this Bill. I take it that it is meant to allow the multiplication of courts in order to get quicker administration, by extending the powers to others than those who already exercise them. I am not opposing the Bill in any sense, but I desire to give the right hon. Gentleman an opportunity of assuring the men of the mercantile marine and other portions and units which are added to the Navy as we once knew it, that it means no increased punishment of any kind.
Perhaps, as I have read this Bill, and the hon. Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. Wing) does not appear to have done so, he will allow me to give him the assurance for which he asks. The Bill only amends a Bill we passed last year by changing two words. In that Bill the words "Vice-Admiral" and "Vice-Admirals" occur. Where those words occur you may now read, if you like, "Flag Officer" or "Flag Officers."
Not if you like.
Well, we have got to read those words in. I tried to put it in the gentlest form. This is a very small matter, and very easily done, but I think it shows that the Admiralty, though they are capable and wise cannot foresee twelve months ahead, not even when it is a very little Bill like this.
It only shows that if it consulted capable men like the hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone and took his advice or the advice of other sensible men they would save themselves and the House a good deal of trouble and the country a lot of paper. Why, at least, 670 copies of this had to be printed for circulation to hon. Members alone, in addition to those distributed for the Vote Office. Let the Admiralty show a little more forethought and take the advice of people who have more time to look into these matters than the right hon. Gentleman has.Question put, and agreed to.
Resolved, "That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Committee on the Bill."— [ Mr. J. Hope.]
Bill accordingly considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third Time."
I think it right to reassure my hon. Friend the Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. Wing) that the Bill has nothing whatever to do with increasing punishments. Its object is simply to give rear-admirals the power of holding courts-martial now possessed by vice-admirals and the Commander-in-Chief.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read the third time, and passed.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Eight minutes after Ten o'clock till to-morrow (Friday), pursuant to the Resolution of the House this day.