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Commons Chamber

Volume 93: debated on Monday 30 April 1917

House of Commons

Monday, April 30, 1917

Private Business

Cheshire Lines Committee Bill,

As amended, considered; to be read the third time.

Aluminium Corporation Bill [ Lords ], Mansfield Railway Bill [ Lords ], South Staffordshire Mond Gas (Power and Heating) Bill [ Lords ], West Kent Electric Power Bill [ Lords ], Yorkshire Registries (North Riding) Bill [ Lords ],

Read a second time, and committed.

Army

Copy presented of Order in Council, dated 20th April 1917, defining the duties of the Members of the Army Council [by Act]; to list upon the Table.

Metropolitan Police

Accounts presented of the Metropolitan Police and the Police Pension Funds for the year ended 31st of March 1917 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 73.]

Shops Act, 1912

Copies presented of Orders made by the Councils of the undermentioned local authorities, and confirmed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department:—

County of Anglesey;

Borough of Salford

[by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

FINANCE (No. 2) ACT, 1915 (EXCESS PROFITS DUTY)

Copy presented of Regulations made by the Treasury under Section 40 (3) of The Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Evicted Tenants (Ireland) Act, 1907

Copy presented of Return giving particulars of cases in which persons have been reinstated with the assistance of the Estates Commissioners during the quarter ended 31st March 1917 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Bradstreet Company (New York)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will cause an immediate inquiry to be opened into the circumstances under which the Bradstreet Company of New York was permitted to seize the assets of the Institute W. Schimmelphfeng, a German commercial inquiry office having branches in London, Manchester, Glasgow, Liverpool, Belfast, Leeds, Bristol, and Birmingham at the outbreak of war and to retain in their employ Alfred Reinhardt, a registered enemy alien, as general manager?

:The books and documents of the Bradstreet Company have been inspected on behalf of the Board of Trade, in pursuance of the provisions of the Trading With the Enemy (Amendment) Act, 1916, and, as a result the Board have made an Order under that Act for the winding-up of the business of the Institute W. Schimmelphfeng. Steps are now being taken by the Controller under the direction of the Court to require the Bradstreet Company to account for the assets belonging to the Institute which were taken over the company. I am informed that Reinhardt's employment by the Bradstreet Company has now ceased. I understand that the assets of the Institute were taken over by the company very early in the War, and the Board of Trade had no power to give or withhold permission. There seems no case for inquiry.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the fact that Alfred Reinhardt, a registered enemy alien of German nationality, has been permitted to control and manage the business of the Bradstreet Company, 137, Cheapside, E.C., since the outbreak of war, in which capacity he has been advised by the War Trade Department Clearing House to forbid his managers to communicate information relating to trade with the enemy and the Defence of Realm direct to local officers of the Board of Trade and the police authorities; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?

:The position of Mr. Reinhardt was dealt with in the answer to a question by the hon. and gallant Member for the Ludlow Division of Shropshire, which appeared in the OFFICIAL REPORT for Thursday last. I understand that in 1915 the War Trade Intelligence Department suggested to the London manager of the Bradstreet Company that reports from provincial offices of the company relating to Trading With the Enemy or to the Defence of the Realm Regulations should be submitted through their London office to that Department before being communicated to official inquirers with a view to ensuring that such information should be authoritative and reliable. No action is necessary as Mr. Reinhardt is no longer connected with the Bradstreet Company.

:Is there no power to examine the records of this Institute so as to see what information it gave periodically to the German government?

:The whole thing has been inquired into and has been under the very close supervision of the War Trade Department.

Food Supplies

Fish (Transit Facilities)

asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether he is aware that mackerel sent from Ireland are often four or five days on the road; that quite recently hundreds of boxes have been condemned, as the fish was unfit for human consumption owing to delay in transit; whether the delay is in any measure due to the fish being held up at Holyhead, only a limited quantity being allowed on the train at one time; and, if so, whether he will take steps to have this restriction removed; (2) whether he is aware of the difficulty in getting empty fish boxes sent from England to Ireland; that the time occupied between their dispatch and arrival at their destination sometimes occupies as much as a fortnight; and whether he will take the necessary steps to expedite the transit of these boxes, so urgently required, if much valuable food is not to be wasted?

:I am aware that difficulties have arisen in connection with the transit of fish from Ireland to England, and I am sending the hon. Baronet a copy of the reply given to a question asked by the hon. Member for East Cork on the 25th April, together with a copy of a letter which I have since received from the London and North-Western Railway Company on the subject. As regards the transit of empty fish boxes to Ireland, that also is a matter of considerable difficulty in present circumstances, but I have brought it before both the British and Irish Railway Executive Committees.

:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that continuous complaints have been made regarding the action, or rather inaction, of the railway companies in Ireland, particularly the Great Northern Railway Company and the Great Southern and Western Railway Company, and has any definite action been taken by the Government?

:I am continuously in receipt of complaints. We are doing all we can to remedy them.

:What is the meaning of "we are doing all we can," because no action is taken?

:The hon. Gentleman is not quite correct, because a considerable improvement has already been effected.

:Have the Board taken steps to advise traders that this fish, which is easily spoiled in transport, should be pickled on the other side?

Poultry

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture, inasmuch as not long since he urged poultry keepers to increase the number of their birds, and in view of the fact that it would be a distinct loss to the nation if a large reduction in the number of poultry was found necessary, whether he will utilise the tonnage now employed in bringing eggs from Egypt and from Canada to convey from the former country dhurra and from the latter country feed or damaged wheat?

:I have been asked to reply. It would be a wasteful use of our limited shipping tonnage to employ it for the importation of food of the description mentioned in the question. It is more economical to import human food than the materials for feeding poultry or farm animals.

Milk

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he has received a number of resolutions from co-operative societies and trade councils protesting against the changes made in the prices of milk for the summer months; and, if so, what action, if any, he is going to take in the matter?

:The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The question of the summer milk supply is now being considered by a specially appointed Advisory Committee. The Food Controller will await their Report before taking any further action.

Oats

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether there are some 4,000 racehorses at present in training, including yearlings, consuming each 14 lbs. of oats per day; and whether, before curtailing the bread rations of the people, the Food Controller will adopt the course proposed by the hon. Member for Hornsey, now attached to his Department, of cutting down the issue of oats to 100 of the best horses for breeding purposes and prohibiting the feeding of the remainder on oats?

:As announced in to-day's Press, all racing in the United Kingdom will cease at the end of this week. An Order providing for the rationing of thoroughbreds, in so far as it is necessary to maintain the breeding stock, will shortly be issued.

:Does the hon. Gentleman accept the figure 4,000 given in the question?

:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Jockey Club in Ireland have already cut down very substantially the number of races, and are only keeping on such as are necessary to maintain the breed on which you depend for country horses?

:Yes, I am aware of that; but there has been a similar cutting down in England, and the nation has got to be fed.

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been directed to the shortage of oats in Scotland arising from the purchases of oats for horses made by forage officers and to the scarcity of last year's crop; and whether, having regard to the hardship which is thus inflicted upon consumers of porridge, who form a large proportion of the population of Scotland, he proposes to take any steps to safeguard the remaining supply of oats, so that its use may be limited to human consumption?

:I have been asked to reply. The Government are aware that there is a considerable shortage of oats in Scotland, and that this shortage has been aggravated by military requirements. It is in contemplation to restrict the feeding of oats to horses in order to safeguard as far as possible the limited supply available for human food.

Sugar

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that 19,000 tons of sugar have been offered to the Sugar Commission by a reputable City firm since 1st January; that the offers were declined; that a licence to deal in sugar was refused to this firm; that the offers were declined on the ground that the firm in question had not previously dealt in sugar, and that the sugar in question has been sold abroad; and whether, in view of the short supply of this necessary article, he will direct that in future sugar shall be purchased from anyone offering it?

:The offers in question were received by the Royal Commission on the Sugar Supply from a firm not ordinarily engaged in the sugar trade, and were declined after full consideration. Seeing that the present shortage of sugar supplies arises from the necessity of limiting the number of vessels engaged in the transport of sugar, and not from any difficulty in purchasing sugar abroad, the acceptance of the offers would not have increased the supplies in this country. The Food Controller is accordingly not prepared to invite the Royal Commission to modify their existing policy in regard to the purchase of sugar.

:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the tonnage had been already arranged for in this case. In view of the great importance of the matter, I beg to give notice that I will call attention to this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether, having regard to the numerous complaints received from grocers, co-operative societies, and other food-distributing agencies in Lanarkshire and other populous districts in Scotland as to the allocation of the sugar supply, and to the fact that in many such districts the supply works out at only four ounces per. head per week for each member of the household, he will take steps to see that a more equitable form of allocation to the grocers and co-operative societies and distributing agencies in these districts in Scotland is adopted?

:Arrangements have been made to allot additional supplies of sugar to any district in which a shortage has been caused by an increase of population since 1915. This policy will be continued as fresh cases of shortage are disclosed, and any such cases as the hon. Member brings to my notice will be investigated.

Bread

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if he will consider the proposal of having one or two breadless days a week and ascertain the result before resorting to the expedient of rations by card which he is now entertaining?

:The proposal to institute breadless days is impracticable. Breadstuffs are an indispensable element in the diet of nearly every person above the age of infancy.

:As the policy of meatless days has, by the statement of the hon. Gentleman, been fairly successful, could the hon. Gentleman not at any rate make an attempt to try one breadless day in the week?

:No, Sir; the policy of meatless days is a matter which may ultimately have to be abandoned, in view of the undue drain on the consumption of our breadstuffs. A breadless day opens up quite different considerations.

:Will the hon. Gentleman consider the substitution of oatcake on special days?

:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the price of oatmeal has gone up to such an extent as to make it more expensive than bread?

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware of the number of uncut loaves of bread that are being bought by the sweepings contractors from the large London bakers and sold by them to pig keepers as food for swine; and will he make an inquiry into this practice in order that he may take action for the bread being better utilised?

:Any such practice as that suggested by the hon. Member's question would be clearly illegal by virtue of the Wheat, Rye, and Rice (Restriction) Order. I will make inquiries, and shall be glad if the hon. Member can bring any specific cases to my notice.

Australian Butter

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he will state the price which has been paid for the Australian butter recently commandeered by the Government?

:The price to be paid for the Australian butter recently commandeered by the Government varies from 180s. to 186s. per cwt., according to grade. The total value of the consignments cannot at present be ascertained, as the unloading of the ships is incomplete.

Wheat

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in view of the fact that the Government has acquired wheat from Australian farmers at 39s. 9d. a quarter with freightage to this country of 15s. a quarter he will take immediate steps to reduce the maximum price at which British farmers may sell wheat from 78s. a quarter to some figure more closely approximating to the cost of Australian wheat landed here?

:I have nothing to add to the answer given to the hon. Member on Thursday last.

:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that he did not answer this question on Thursday at all. He said the figures were incorrect. Is he aware that the first figure is got from the statement made by the President of the Victorian Farmers' Union dealing with prices given in Australia, and the other figure is given from the Front Bench?

:I am informed by the Wheat Commission that the figure is incorrect, but it is immaterial whether it is correct or incorrect. Questions of this character are greatly to be deprecated, and render the negotiations for the purchase of wheat in other countries somewhat delicate and difficult.

:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his attention is drawn to the facts in this question for the purpose of showing that we are paying too high a price for British wheat, and has nothing to do with the price we pay abroad, and that we are allowing the British farmer to extort twice as much as we give the Australians?

:May I take the opportunity of saying that there is nothing whatever to show that there is any disparity, considering the altered conditions, between the price paid for this wheat and British wheat. The contract is one which was made several months ago when the conditions in the world generally were wholly different from what they are to-day.

Restaurant Meals

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if he is aware that during the hours between lunch, say 1 p.m. to 2.30 p.m., and the evening meal, say 6 p.m. to 8 p.m., persons can obtain at the restaurants a large slice of buttered toast and an unlimited quantity of certain other cakes, not necessarily sweet cake; and if he will take the necessary steps to check this waste?

:All restaurants, except those charging a maximum price of 1s. 3d. for any meal, are rationed as to bread and flour on the basis of 2 ozs. of bread for meal and 1 oz. of flour for each lunch and dinner. The restaurant keeper is not limited in terms to the amount which he may give to any individual customer. but is limited on the 2 ozs. basis as to the total amount supplied in any week. Cakes and confectionery, whether sweetened or not, must be brought into account.

:Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the facts stated in the question of the supply of an unlimited quantity of cake, in addition to 2 ozs. of bread?

:Yes, I think it is just possible that these cakes are made of maize, or some similar substance, or even possibly oatmeal. It should be pointed out that it is desirous in the public interest to encourage for the time being the consumption of those substitutes. If there is over-consumption, another Order will have to be issued

Merchant Shipping (Arrivals and Sailings)

asked the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether he can state the arrivals and sailings of British merchant vessels of 1,600 tons gross or over at and from United Kingdom ports for the week ending 3 p.m., 22nd April?

:My hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. I can only repeat what has already been stated, namely, that the form of the Weekly Return was determined by the Government after very full consideration, and has been accepted and adopted by our Allies.

:Cannot the right hon. Gentleman make the Return correspond with the professions of the Prime Minister on Friday—that we should tell the whole truth?

:Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that until these figures are supplied the seriousness of the position cannot be seen and there is no use asking people to make sacrifices?

:Has the right hon. Gentleman seen Dr. Helferrick's speech in Berlin, in which he taunts the British Government with not being brave enough to face the facts?

Military Service

Conscientious Objectors

asked the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether he will give the names of the Committee of Employment for Conscientious Objectors; and whether he will say when it is proposed to print and circulate to Members of this House the rules, as amended, under which this Committee act?

:My hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. As regards the first part, the names were stated in an answer given to the hon. Member for West Bradford on 15th March. The hon. and gallant Member for Gloucester has since been added to the Committee. As regards the second part of the question, the regulations of the Committee have been presented to both Houses, and will be circulated in a day or two. I will see that the amending rule made last week is included.

asked the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether in the local chapel at Princetown, before the arrival of the so-called conscientious objectors at Dartmoor the National Anthem was sung, but since these men have frequented the chapel the National Anthem is no longer sung, and the prayer for our soldiers and sailors is omitted; and, if so, whether he will take the necessary steps to see that no religious service is modified to suit the views of these men?

:My hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. Inquiry has been made by the minister of the local Wesleyan Chapel, who states:

"Prayers for soldiers and sailors and all others in authority are regularly made at the Wesleyan Chapel. … The National Anthem is also sung but not at every service, but its omission has no connection whatever with the presence of the conscientious objectors. When it is sung they give no certain evidence it is disliked."

I have no authority to give any instructions to the minister of the chapel with regard to the services.

:In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the right hon. Gentleman's reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise this question to-night.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can say if C. H. Norman appeared at the meeting held by the Independent Labour Party at Leeds as a representative from Dartmoor; whether Norman's fare was paid; how long he had been working at Princetown, and what was the period of leave given him; whether the taking part in public meetings, more especially pacifists' meetings, is allowed by the rules of the Committee of Employment for Conscientious Objectors; and, if not, will he say what punishment, if any, will be meted out to Norman for breach of discipline?

:The attention of the Committee on Employment of Conscientious Objectors has been drawn to a statement in the Press to the effect that C. H. Norman attended a meeting of the Independent Labour Party at Leeds on the 9th instant. This man was given leave of absence, under the then existing rules of the Committee, from the 5th to the 10th instant. His fare was not paid by the Committee. He had been working at Princetown since the 21st March, but had previously been working under the Committee since the 10th August, 1916. By the rules of the Committee all men under their control are forbidden to take part in public propaganda, and the reports I have been able to obtain do not seem to prove that Norman, though present at the meeting, was guilty of a breach of this rule. The "Leeds Weekly Citizen," which contains a long report of the proceedings, does not mention him, and from the report in the "Morning Post" of the 10th instant he appears to have spoken only of the conditions of employment under the Committee. The Committee have not, therefore, been able to recommend his recall to prison, but if further information establishes a breach of the rule, it is still open to them to do so.

:Is the House to understand, then, that these men, so-called conscientious objectors, are to be allowed to attend pacifist meetings, and to make statements in accordance with their views without any interference from the Government?

:As a matter of fact he has not been guilty of a breach of the Regulations. It was a private meeting. If he had been guilty of a breach of the Regulations he would have been recalled to prison. As my hon. Friend and the House well know we have now made Regulations suspending all leave to conscientious objectors.

:Is my hon. Friend aware that it was not a private meeting as the Press were present?

Agricultural Machine Repairer

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether Leonard Edsall, of Breamore, near Salisbury, has been called up to the Army; whether this man is the only able-bodied farrier and repairer of agricultural machinery and implements in Breamore and the six parishes adjoining; and whether he will arrange with the Army authorities for the return of this man to his employment, which is of vital importance to the cultivation of the land?

:According to the Board's information of the proceedings before the Appeal Tribunal in this case, there were then two blacksmiths at one place three miles from Breamore, and three at another village the same distance off in another direction. The War Office have considered the case and have declined their consent to a rehearing, so that, unless the facts can be shown to be otherwise than as represented to the War Office, no useful purpose could be served by the Board pressing them as suggested.

:Has the Board of Agriculture made any representations to the War Office with respect to this particular case?

:The Board of Agriculture came to the conclusion that if the facts were as stated by the War Office, there was no reason for making any complaint.

Hospital Ships

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, through the usual channels, he will request the German Government to state what proof it requires that British hospital ships are not carrying munitions of war?

:His Majesty's Government consider that no useful purpose would be served by making such a request.

Chamber of Deputies (Permanent Commissions)

asked whether the Foreign Office possesses a Report of recent date upon the working of the French system of Permanent Commissions of the Chamber of Deputies?

:I would refer the hon. Member to the reply returned to the hon. Member for South-West Manchester on 21st December last. No further information on the subject has reached the Foreign Office since that date.

Italians of Military Age

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that there are in this country at the present moment a considerable number of Italians of military age employed as waiters in hotels and restaurants; and can he say whether any attempt has been made to bring home to these men the necessity of returning to Italy in order to take their part in the War?

:The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As I informed the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley on 26th April, the Government contemplate legislation on the question of friendly aliens generally.

:Is it not within the power of the Ambassadors and Consuls-General in this country to summon such men as are liable, to Allied Powers, for military service, without any interference by our Government?

Government of Ireland

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the recent invitation to leading statesmen and public men of an Allied nation to offer their solution on a matter of political controversy which this House had agreed should not be proceeded with during the continuance of hostilities was made after consultation with the Foreign Office or other Government Departments?

:Before the right hon. Gentleman answers that, will he say why the hon. Member wants the Government to adopt the policy of funk that he has adopted since the War.

:There was no reason why the Foreign Office should have been consulted, and, in fact, it was not consulted. I am unable to speak for any other Department.

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that statesmen and public men of an Allied nation have recently been invited to give through the medium of the Press their opinion on a subject of controversy domestic to the United Kingdom; and will the Govern- ment continue to encourage a reciprocal policy of non-interference, either by ourselves or our Allies, where the questions at issue are of domestic and not international importance?

:I do not think that any action on the part of the Government is called for in this matter.

:Would America tolerate interference on our part in the "colour" question in the United States?

:May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will think it desirable to request the American Government not to interfere in the War at all?

Munitions

Substituted Workers

asked the Minister of Munitions if he is aware that many of the men transferred from the Army to do substitution work in industries under his Department have not been paid the subsistence allowance promised; that four men, J. Cameron, R. Watson, A. E. Hodgson, and J. Twentyman, were transferred from the Army to a coal and firebricks works in Cumberland on the 13th February last; and, seeing that up to the present they have not received any subsistence allowance, thus for over two months having had to keep themselves and families on bare Army pay, will he take steps to expedite the payments due?

:I regret that from various causes delay has occasionally occurred in authorising payment of subsistence allowance to men who have enrolled as Army Reserve Munitions Workers, and been placed upon munitions work. A new procedure has, however, recently been adopted which will enable these cases to be dealt with much more expeditiously. Payment of subsistence allowance has now been authorised to Watson, Cameron and Twentyman. The case of Hodgson, who is an unmarried man, is under investigation, and should inquiries show that he is contributing to the support of dependants from whom be is obliged to be separated by reason of his allocation to munitions work, payment of the subsistence will be authorised retrospectively with as little delay as possible. My hon. Friend is under a misapprehension in thinking that these men have only received bare Army pay. They have received civil pay for the work on which they were employed.

:Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is widespread dissatisfaction with the Ministry of Munitions owing to the large numbers of men being left without any pay or any means of subsistence for their wives and families, on their being transferred from the Army to the Ministry of Munitions?

:No; I have no knowledge of anything of the kind, and I shall be much obliged if the hon. Member will give me the cases?

:Is it not the duty of the War Office to see to these men, and not the Ministry of Munitions at all?

Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)

asked the Minister of Munitions, as representing the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic), whether a record is kept by the Board of convictions obtained against licence-holders in Scotland for breach of the Board's Regulations; of the number of licences refused where the licence-holder has been convicted of contravention of the Board's Orders; and of the total decrease in the number of licences granted in Scotland by the licensing Courts held during the present month; and whether he can supply the figures under each of the above heads or any other figures in the possession of the Board applicable to the subject?

:The only figures of the nature desired which I am able to give are those relating to the cases which the Control Board keep specially under observation, namely, those where, after the chief constable has reported the circumstances of a conviction for a contravention of the Board's Order or of the licensing law, the Board have closed the premises for the sale and supply of excisable liquor for the remainder of the licensing year. In the course of the licensing year 1916-17 the Board have thus closed forty-five licensed premises in Scotland. In eighteen of these cases renewal of the certificate for the year 1917-18 was refused at the recent licensing Courts; in eleven the certificates were renewed; in five no application for renewal was made; and in the remaining eleven cases the action taken by the licensing Courts is not yet known to the Board.

Military Working Party (Morecambe)

asked the Minister of Munitions whether a number of men of the 7th Highland Light Infantry, in medical category C 2, have been employed as a working party under the Ministry of Munitions at Morecambe; how long has it been so employed; whether many of these men, who are skilled workmen have been employed on unskilled labour; whether the men themselves and their former employers have made repeated applications to be released for munitions work in their own trade; whether some of these men have now been transferred to Class W (T) Reserve and have had their pay and their wives' separation allowances stopped; how long were these men left without any payment; and why have they not been allowed on their transfer to Reserve to return to Glasgow to work at munitions in the trades at which they are skilled?

:Many detailed inquiries are necessary in order to obtain the information my hon. Friend desires. These inquiries are now being made and as soon as I am in a position to do so I will communicate the result to my hon. Friend.

:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I brought this question about these men to his notice many months ago, that no action whatever has been taken, that these are skilled men in unskilled trades, and that they have been employed on unskilled labour in the places where they are?

:I am afraid that I first saw the cases this morning, but I will make inquiry into the matter.

Billeting of Civilians Bill (V.A.D. Workers)

asked the Minister of Munitions whether Voluntary Aid Detachment women working in military and auxiliary hospitals in this country are included among those persons for whom it is intended to provide under the Billeting of Civilians Bill?

:A written answer to the hon. Member's question was circulated with the OFFICIAL REPORT for 26th April (see column 2606). The answer was to the following effect:

This matter is at present under consideration, and I am in communication with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War. Perhaps the hon. Member will put down his question again at a later date.

Questions

Naval and Military Pensions and Grants

asked the Pensions Minister whether a man discharged from the Army has recently been refused a pension by the Ministry of Pensions on the ground that his disability was caused by his experiences on the "Lusitania" while on his way to this country to enlist; and whether this man was, in fact, passed for general service and served in France for several months and broke down while on active service abroad?

:I regret that I have been unable to identify from the information supplied the case to which the hon. Member refers, but if he will be so good as to send me the man's name, regiment, and regimental number, I will cause further inquiry to be made.

:Does my right hon. Friend not think it an extraordinary reason to be alleged by the Ministry of Pensions for not giving this man a pension for service, that his disability was owing to exposure during the sinking of the "Lusitania," in which he was a passenger at his own expense, on his way to join the Army in this country?

:It would have been extraordinary if the Ministry of Pensions had given any such decision, but they have not.

asked the Secretary of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that local war pensions committees, in administering the Regulation concerning increased allowances to the dependants of apprentices, are informing applicants that the increase is only payable in case of distress; and whether he will issue an instruction informing such committees that it is their duty to administer the Regulations and not to convert themselves into relieving officers?

:The Statutory Committee have no evidence to show that local committees are informing applicants that the increase under Part II., Regulation 9 ( b ), is only payable in case of "distress." The purpose of the Statutory Committee's Regulations is to obviate hardship, and the Regulation in question consequently restricts allowances to cases in which it can be shown that the absence of the expected contribution from the son has resulted in hardship. The Statutory Committee have every reason to believe that the local committees are administering the Regulations sympathetically, and they do not think it advisable to issue such instructions as the hon. Member suggests.

:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this Regulation was passed in order to put the mothers of apprentices who at the beginning of the War joined voluntarily in the same position as the mothers of apprentices who waited to be conscripted, and had bigger wages and, therefore, mothers had bigger allowances, and that, as a matter of fact, the local pensions committees are not administering the Regulations on the correct basis, and consequently there are cases of hardship?

:I was not aware of anything of the kind. I have had something to do with framing the Regulation and I cannot but think that my hon. Friend is in error. The Regulation was framed for the purpose of giving the mother of an apprentice, where there might otherwise be hardship, such an amount as might have been expected the apprentice would give his mother when his time had expired.

Blinded Soldiers (Scotland)

asked the Pensions Minister whether arrangements have yet been completed for the treatment of Scottish blinded soldiers in Scotland; and if he can state to what extent the facilities afforded at Newington House, Edinburgh, will be made use of for that purpose?

:Arrangements have been completed by which the facilities afforded at Newington House, Edinburgh, are to be utilised to the full extent necessary for the treatment of blinded soldiers and sailors domiciled in Scotland. The Committee of Newington House have also made themselves responsible for the settlement of men trained there and have charged themselves with the after-care of these men. I would add, with reference to an answer I gave to a question in the House on the 8th March last, that a conference between the authorities of Newington House in Edinburgh and St. Dunstan's in London, held at my suggestion, has resulted in complete and cordial agreement for co-ordinating the work of these two establishments.

Prisoners of War

asked the hon. Member for Sheffield (Central Division) if any reply has yet been received from the German Government with reference to the proposal for the mutual transfer to a neutral country of combatant prisoners of war who have been in captivity for upwards of two years?

:The answer is in the negative. The dispatch containing the proposal to which my hon. Friend refers was sent by telegraph on the 21st instant, and up to the present no reply has been received from the German Government.

:Will this policy be extended so as to include prisoners who have been in captivity for two years?

:I am not responsible for policy, but I am authorised to state that if this policy received favourable acceptance, we would endeavour to meet the most distressing cases amongst civilian prisoners.

Aran Isles Co-Operative Fishing Society

asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) if he will say why the application of the Aran Isles Co-operative Fishing Society for a motor boat for fishing has had no attention; when it was received, when considered, and with what result; and, in view of the special importance of increasing the food supply this season, in what way and to what extent the Department propose to help this industry in the present season?

:As stated by my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary, in reply to the hon. Member on Wednesday last, the question of assisting the fisheries of the Aran Islands is a matter coming within the province of the Congested Districts Board.

Explosives Act (Factory Inspection)

asked the Home Secretary whether all controlled factories are on the same footing as Government factories as regards inspection by the Home Office and thus excluded from the jurisdiction of the Home Office under the provisions of the Explosives Act of 1875; and, if so, whether, in view of the risk to life and property involved, His Majesty's Government will consider the necessity of placing all munitions factories, whether Government factories or controlled establishments, under the Home Office explosive expert inspectors or a combined control of Home Office and munitions experts?

:The fact that a factory is a controlled establishment within the meaning of the Munitions of War Act does not exempt it from the provisions of the Explosives Act. The only factories which are so exempted are those which are the property of the Government or those in which the explosives dealt with are the property of the Government and held for the service of the Crown. As regards the latter part of the question, I would point out that under existing law the provisions of the Explosives Act cannot be applied to Government factories or explosives, but the Explosives Department of the Home Office is in close touch with the Ministry of Munitions and the advice of His Majesty's inspectors is freely asked and given.

:In view of the great danger of these factories, will the hon. Gentleman take steps to make the Act applicable to these controlled establishments?

Coal Mines Act, 1911 (Horse Inspection)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will state how many mines in England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland, respectively, were left unvisited by a special inspector of horses under the Coal Mines Act, 1911, during the year 1916; and can he say when the Report of those inspectors for that year will be published?

:The number in England and Wales was 91; in Scotland, 202. The reason for so large a number in Scotland having been unvisited is that The reason for so large a number in war work during a considerable portion of the year. This will not recur, and arrangements have also been made to give extra assistance in Scotland. I cannot give any date at present for the publication of the Reports, but I hope it may be possible to issue them in July or August.

:I do not think the hon. Gentleman has answered my question with regard to Wales and Ireland?

:In Ireland there is only one mine. Perhaps my hon. Friend will put down another question.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the case of John Hume, a pony driver, who was convicted at South Shields for having cruelly ill-treated a pit-pony at the St. Hilda mine on 27th January last by pulling out its tongue; whether he is aware that the only penalty imposed by the Court for this cruelty, which was described by the prosecution as being of a particularly revolting nature, Was a fine of £10 and costs; whether this mine was visited by a special inspector of horses, under the Coal Mines Act, 1911, during the year 1916, and, if so, how often?

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the case of Leonard Hextall, a pony driver, who was convicted at the Ilkeston Police Court on 14th December last for having cruelly ill-treated a pony at the West Hallam Colliery by pulling out its tongue; whether he is aware that the only penalty imposed by the Court for this cruelty was a fine of £10 with costs; and whether this mine was visited by a special inspector of horses under the Coal Mines Act, 1911, during the year 1916, and, if so, how often?

:This was a prosecution taken under the Protection of Animals Act by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, whose attention was called by the company's official to the case. The case appears to have been an isolated one at this mine, as the agent for the mine informs the inspector that it was the only case of cruelty that came to their knowledge during last year, and the horse inspector, who paid two visits to the collieries last year, found the horses properly treated and the arrangements satisfactory.

asked the Home Secretary (1) whether his attention has been called to the Report of His Majesty's Chief Inspector of Coal Mines as regards pit ponies for the year 1915; whether he is aware that this Report shows that out of a total of 65,673 horses and ponies employed in the coal mines of the United Kingdom in that year 2,244 died from injury or disease and 2,055 had to be destroyed in consequence of injury or disease, and 9,016 sustained non-fatal injuries; whether he is aware that the percentage of animals killed, injured, and ill-treated in 1915 shows an improvement on the figures for 1914 and a still more marked improvement on the figures for 1913; whether such improvement is due, to some extent at any rate, to more careful inspection; whether the condition of affairs is still very bad in Division 3 (Yorkshire and North Midland), where the percentage of deaths per 1,000 is 90 and of non-fatal injuries is 177, and in Division 5 (South Wales), where the percentage of deaths per 1,000 is 77 and of non-fatal injuries is 166, as compared with Division 2 (Durham and Northumberland), where the percentage of deaths per 1,000 is 49 and of non-fatal injuries is 105; whether, in view of these figures, he will insist on a more thorough and complete inspection; (2) whether his attention has been called to the fact that the special horse inspectors appointed under Section 109 of the Coal Mines Act, 1911, inspected 1,204 mines and 52,590 horses and ponies in England and Wales in 1915, and left 383 mines and 7,297 horses and ponies unvisited; and whether, in view of the numbers of animals which die or have to be destroyed by reason of injury or disease and which suffer non-fatal injuries, he will appoint such further number of special inspectors, in addition to the existing seven, as will ensure that all the mines and animals shall be inspected at least once a year?

:I am advised that, having regard to the difference in the conditions, no comparison of any value can be drawn between the figures for the Yorkshire and South Wales Divisions and those for the Northern Division. In the former coalfields, owing to the depth, inclination and character of the strata, the roads are subject to greater pressure and are consequently much more difficult to maintain, and the gradients are more severe. The arrangements for the inspection of horses by the horse inspectors have been very carefully reviewed by the Department and certain administrative changes have been made which will, it is anticipated, enable these inspectors in the course of the year to visit every mine employing horses and make a thorough inspection.

:Is the improvement that has taken place due, at any rate, to improved inspection?

:May I inquire whether, in view of the small extra expense incurred by appointing some additional inspectors, over military age, and the great advantage that would result, the hon. Gentleman would employ some additional inspectors?

:While the War is on I do not think it would be fair to make any appointments, because it would preclude a number of men who are now serving from being applicants for such posts. But I will bring the matter before my right hon. Friend and see if anything of a temporary character can be done. I am certain, how- ever, that it would not be a proper policy to make any permanent appointments now.

:Is it possible with the number of inspectors, only seven, to inspect anything like all the horses and mines there are?

:I have just answered my hon. and learned Friend. The Government say "Yes."

:Would it be possible to transfer some of the inspectors of the National Service Department to this more useful work?

Corpses of Soldiers (German)

asked the Prime Minister if he will take steps to make it known as widely as possible in Egypt, India, and the East generally, that the Germans use the dead bodies of their own soldiers and of their enemies when they obtain possession of them, as food for swine?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the reports widely circulated in this country that the German Government have set up factories for extracting fat from the bodies of soldiers killed in battle; whether these reports have been endorsed by many prominent men in this country, including Lord Curzon of Kedleston; whether the Government have any solid grounds for believing that these statements are well founded; and, if so, whether he will communicate the information at the disposal of the Government to the House?

:With respect to this question and that standing in the name of the hon. Member for East Mayo, the Government have no information at present beyond that contained in extracts from the German Press which have been published in the Press here. In view of other actions by German military authorities there is nothing incredible in the present charge against them. His Majesty's Government have allowed the circulation of the facts as they have appeared through the usual channels.

:Can the right hon. Gentleman answer whether the Govern- ment will take any steps to give wide publicity in the East to this story emanating from German sources?

:I think at present it is not desirable to take any other steps than those that have been taken.

:May I ask whether we are to conclude from that answer that the Government have no solid evidence whatever in proof of the truth of this charge, and they have taken no steps to investigate it; and has their attention been turned to the fact that it is not only a gross scandal, but a very great evil to this country to allow the circulation of such statements, authorised by Ministers of the Crown, if they are, as I believe them to be, absolutely false?

:The hon. Member has, perhaps, information that we have not. I can only speak from the statements that have been published in the Press. I have already told the House that we have no other information whatever. The information is the statement that has been published, and that I have before me:

"We are passing the great Corpse Utilisation Establishment of this Army Group. The fat that is now here is turned into lubricating oils and everything else is ground down in the bones mill into a powder which is used for mixing with pigs' food and as manure. Nothing can be permitted to go to waste."

This statement has been published in the Press, and that is the whole of the information that I have.

:Has the Noble Lord's attention been drawn to the fact that there has been published in the "Frankfurter Zeitung" and other leading German newspapers descriptions of this whole process, in which the word "kadaver" is used, and from which it is perfectly manifest, and stated, that these factories are for the purpose of boiling down the dead bodies of horses and other animals which are lying on the battlefield—[An HON. MEMBER: "Human animals!"]—and I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the Government propose to take any steps to obtain authentic information whether this story that has been circulated is true or absolutely false? For the credit of human nature he ought to.

:It is not any part of the duties of the Government, nor is it possible for the Government to institute inquiries as to what goes on in Germany. The hon. Member is surely very unreason- able in making the suggestion, and as for his quotations from the "Frankfurter Zeitung," I have not seen them, but I have seen statements made by the German Government after the publication of this, and I confess that I am not able to attach very great importance to any statements made by the German Government.

:I beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, before a Minister of the Crown, a member of the War Cabinet, gives authorisation to these rumours, he ought not to have obtained accurate information as to whether they are true or not?

:I think any Minister of the Crown is entitled to comment on and refer to something which has been published in one of the leading papers in this country. He only purported to do that, and did not make himself responsible for the statement. [An HON. MEMBER: "He did!"] I am informed that he did not. He said: "As has been stated in the papers."

:May I ask if the Noble Lord is aware that the circulation of these reports—[Interruption]—has caused anxiety and misery to British people who have lost their sons on the battlefield, and who think that their bodies may be put to this purpose, and does not that give a reason why he should try to find out the truth of what is happening in Germany?

"Nation" Newspaper

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the feeling expressed in the United States at the prohibition of export to the United States of the "Nation" newspaper; and, seeing that it is suggested that this action of the Government here is an attack on the freedom of the Press and in view of the importance of carrying the American people with us in the moral aspects of our conduct of the War, whether he will have the Order in question annulled?

:I would refer my hon. Friend to the very full statement which I made on this subject on the 26th instant, at Question Time and on the Adjournment.

Racing

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been directed to the facts that according to the Racing Calendar for 1917 there are thirteen race meetings fixed for the season at Newmarket, covering a period of forty-six days' racing and including 190 separate events; whether permission has been granted for the holding of all these meetings in the present condition of national affairs; and whether, having regard to the effect produced upon public opinion both in this country and among our Allies by continuing to hold race meetings during the War, he is now in a position to announce the decision of the Government on this question?

:The War Cabinet having decided on Friday that there should be no more racing after the meeting at Newmarket which takes place this week, the decision was at once conveyed to the Stewards of the Jockey Club, and the hon. Member will see by a notice in the papers this morning that they have taken prompt action to carry out the instructions of the War Cabinet. I should like to say that in this and all previous questions connected with racing the Stewards of the Jockey Club, while always supporting to the utmost of their ability the claims of racing as part of the great industry of horse breeding, have invariably fallen in with, and carried out, any suggestions that were made to them by His Majesty's Government.

:Will my right hon. Friend say whether this restriction will also apply to all flat race meetings and other races which are not carried on under the auspices of the Jockey Club?

Russian Newspapers (Importation)

asked the Prime Minister whether any embargo is placed on any Russian newspapers to prevent them entering into this country; whether he is aware that the present Russian Government has abolished the political censorship and allows free speech and free publication to the fullest possible extent, and that such democratic and socialist papers as "Souremeny Mir," "Pravda," "Narodnoye Djelo," "Zemlya y Wolya," "Social Democrat," and the "Bulletin" of the Workmen and Soldiers' Council, with a joint circulation of about 15,000,000 copies daily, are not to be seen anywhere in England; and whether, in order to make strong the bonds between the Russian and British democracies, he will promise that no action of the Government shall prevent the circulation in this country of Russian newspapers?

:Is there any prohibition of the receipt of telegrams sent from Russia to persons in this country?

:May I ask whether any other authority besides the War Office, as, for instance, the Board of Trade or the War Trade Department, have any powers which will enable them to prevent newspapers in large lots coming into this country?

:As I understand it, there is no demand for those papers, and my hon. Friend seeks to blame the censorship of the War Office.

Women's Suffrage

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to a circular which has been sent to Members of the House from the Anti-Women's Suffrage Association in which Members are requested to oppose the consideration of women's suffrage till after the War; whether he is aware that Lord Curzon of Kedleston's name appears on the circular as president of this association; and whether he has sanctioned a Member of the War Cabinet allowing his name to be used on a circular asking Members to resist the announced policy of the Government?

:As already announced, the Government has left the question of women's suffrage to the judgment of Parliament. In these circumstances it seems to be open to any association for or against women's suffrage, whether a member of the Government be one of its members or not, to advocate its views.

:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the circular referred to in my question protests against any attempt to discuss women's suffrage in this House during the War, and my point is this: Did the Prime Minister approve of a member of the War Cabinet putting his name to a circular protesting against the declared policy of his own Government?

:I have already pointed out that the policy of the Government in this matter is to leave that particular part of the subject to the judgment of the House.

:Does not leaving it to the judgment of the House involve discussion in this House?

Board of Admiralty (Vote)

asked the Prime Minister whether he will put down the Vote for the Board of Admiralty for an early date?

:A more suitable opportunity for discussion of this subject will, I think, be afforded by the Private Session next week.

:Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the Prime Minister said it was advisable to tell the public the whole truth; and why should this be discussed in a Private Session?

:Are we to understand that any subject may be raised in the Secret Session?

:The subjects that may be raised must depend upon the hon. Members called upon by the Speaker.

:Whether we discuss this in Private Session or not, we cannot discuss it as an Estimate on an allotted day, and my right hon. Friend, apart from the Secret Session, must give a day for the Admiralty Vote.

:I think my hon. Friend has forgotten that this particular Vote has never been discussed since the War, and I do not think it would be desirable to depart from that precedent.

German Prisoners (Employment)

asked the Home Secretary if German prisoners at the internment camp in the Isle of Man are being trained in the manufacture of brushes at the public expense; and, if so, whether he will reverse this policy of spending public money on training foreigners to compete with Home industries and substitute for it the policy of employing prisoners of war the development of agriculture, or in employments in which they are already trained and are expert, so that they may add to the resources of the country whilst they are here rather than increase its economic difficulties?

:I beg to refer to the replies which have been given by my right hon. Friend to a number of questions on this matter during the last two months. As many interned prisoners as possible are being released for agricultural work, but the employment of interned prisoners of a class who cannot be so released on brush-making is in the interests of this country as it supplies a want created by the War; and it tends to reduce and not to increase the economic difficulties.

Russia

Subjects of Military Age

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the Russian Embassy has made the request that a Russian subject, named Kreikemann, should be allowed to return to Russia to perform his military duties there; why the British Government has declined this request; and whether it is the policy of the Government to prevent Russians from proceeding to Russia to fight for the liberation of their fatherland?

:No such request has been made by the Russian Embassy. The man referred to is of Russian origin, but is naturalised in France, and it is his duty to fulfil his military obligations to his adopted country. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.

:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this man is both a Russian citizen and a French citizen—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"]—it is well known that such has often occurred, and that this man offered long ago to go to Russia, having a preference to go and fight for the land in which he was born rather than in France?

:I think the fact is as stated by the hon. Gentleman that this man is both a Russian and a French citizen. As Russia, however, does not require his services, and he is a French citizen, he ought to go there.

National Service

Ploughmen (Wiltshire)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of National Service whether he is aware that the names and addresses of six men stated to be capable ploughmen were sent to a farmer in Wiltshire; that the farmer called at their addresses and found that one man was dead, that one had an ulcerated leg and could not walk, that one was a gravedigger, that two were employed by the Swindon Corporation, and that the sixth could not be found; and whether he will take steps to prevent the recurrence of such incidents?

:Inquiries have been made of the local officers of the National Service Department, but the case described by the right hon. Baronet is not recognised. The Department have not, in fact, offered any ploughmen directly to any farmer in Wiltshire, although some names of men offered to the Department as ploughmen were sent to the war agricultural committee for that county for their consideration. Inquiries have also been made from the Employment Exchanges of the Ministry of Labour, and it has been ascertained that none of the Exchanges in Wiltshire have any knowledge of the matter.

:Is my hon. Friend aware that the names were sent by the National Service branch at Cirencester, and will he allow me to give him evidence showing that my statements are correct?

:I shall be very glad to receive such evidence as my hon. Friend cares to put before me.

Substitution (Wages)

asked whether any guarantee will be given to men who leave their work under the new scheme to take up substitution work that their wages will not be less than the wages they have been receiving in their former position?

:An Advisory Committee of Representative Employers and Employés appointed by the Director-General of National Service has considered the wages of substitution volunteers under the new scheme and has prepared for his consideration regulations dealing with the several classes of cases arising under the scheme. The general effect of these regulations is to secure to such volunteers wages not less than those they have been receiving. Where in the case of a volunteer transferred to a new occupation the new rate is higher than that previously received by him, the advance will be made by instalments over a short probationary period not exceeding one month. A full statement on this subject will, it is hoped, be made at an early date.

Part-Time Work

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of National Service whether the Director-General is yet in a position to announce any scheme by which men may enrol as part-timers; and, if not, will he say when he expects to be in a position to make a pronouncement on this subject?

:The question of utilising offers of part-time service has been considered, and as the industrial and other circumstances of different districts vary considerably, and as part-time volunteers usually desire to continue to live at their homes, it has been decided to entrust the organisation of part-time schemes to the local National Service Committees, for whose guidance leaflets containing various suggestions are being prepared.

:Well, we have not quite got a professional register, but there is not the slightest doubt that these cases will be considered in accordance with this scheme.

Shipbuilding (British Columbia)

asked the Parliamentary Representative to the Shipping Con- troller whether he is aware that British Columbia is capable of producing almost unlimited numbers of steel and especially of wooden ships, and that the orders already given there by the Government represent a very small part of its actual capacity, which is sufficient to make up the losses caused by submarines month by month; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of SHIPPING CONTROL
(Sir Leo Chiozza Money)

:Steps have already been taken which, it is hoped, will secure the maximum output of both steel ships and wooden ships of suitable type from the Canadian yards, but if my hon. Friend has any information or suggestion to offer, the Shipping Controller will be glad to receive them.

Shipping Losses

Cargo Discharges

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether, in order to reduce the submarine danger, he can make arrangements so that ships which have arrived at any port in Great Britain or Ireland may there discharge their cargo, even though that port may not be the usual destination of such vessels?

:The practice referred to in the question is followed wherever dock, wharf, and other facilities permit.

:Is it not the case that on a former occasion a ship with meat, for instance, has arrived safely in port, and has been sent forthwith into a danger area and been sunk within a few hours?

:If the hon. Member knows of any specific case of mismanagement, I will thank him for the information. I think he must have in mind cases in which ships are necessarily sent on because of lack of port facilities for discharge.

Enemy Submarines in English Channel

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the English Channel is much more infested by enemy submarines and more full of danger to shipping than at any previous period of the War; and how does he account for this condition of things?

:As the number of German submarines is increasing, the danger to shipping must be expected to increase in proportion. But, as a matter of fact, during the present month the loss of shipping in the English Channel has been less than in any of the three preceding months. This is partly due to the increased activity of enemy submarines in other areas, and partly the result of increasing the patrol forces in the Channel area.

:Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the shipping losses now are decreasing or increasing?

:Will the right hon. Gentleman utilise the Naval Air Service to bombard the enemy coasts?

Enemy Submarines Destroyed

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can see his way to publish the number of enemy submarines destroyed by His Majesty's Navy or the merchant service up to a date, say, six weeks, before publication, since this information is most probably already known to the enemy, while it would be an encouragement to further efforts for victory in many quarters among our Allies and throughout the British Empire?

:I regret that, for the reasons I gave to the House in my statement on the 21st of February last, it is not possible for me to accept my hon. Friend's suggestion.

Naval Fight Off Dover

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can explain how it came to pass that in the recent naval fight off Dover the British destroyers were outnumbered by six to two and that in the official account of the engagement there is no mention of any reinforcements coming to the aid of the British ships; and whether he can assure the House that arrangements have been made which make such a state of things impossible for the future?

:Before the right hon. Gentleman answers this question, may I ask whether he is aware that the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) used to vote for a reduction of the Navy?

:While it would not be in the public interest to give the actual dispositions adopted, the hon. Member may rest assured that reinforcements were at hand. The fight lasted five minutes, during which time a destroyer at 20 knots will steam less than two miles, so that reinforcements do not necessarily arrive in time. As a matter of fact they arrived in time to pick up survivors from the sinking enemy vessels.

Questions

British Museum (Reading Room)

asked the hon. Member for Worcestershire (Bewdley Division) whether, in view of the fact that persons engaged in regular work during the daytime have been unable to use the reading room of the British Museum for study and research since the war-time restrictions were enforced and that the reading room might be opened for two additional hours on two nights in the week at a cost of less than £300 a year, the Treasury will now sanction the reopening of the reading room at least for these limited hours?

:No, Sir. It is not considered that the expense and dislocation involved would be justified by any advantage to be obtained through the adoption of the hon. Member's suggestion.

:Has the hon. Gentleman consulted the Board of Education as to this reproductive expenditure?

:I am afraid the Board of Education could not provide the necessary staff.

Orders of the Day

Criminal Law Amendment Bill

Order for Consideration, as amended (in the Standing Committee), read.

Mr. BOOTH rose—

:I would point out that the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Commander Wedgwood) will lose his opportunity of moving his Motion—["That the Bill, as amended, be recommitted in respect of Clause 3"].

:On that point, may I say that I handed my Motion in before my hon. and gallant Friend, but under the stress the Resolution in his name was put down first. He has offered to give way to me, and, perhaps, under the circumstances, you will allow him to second my Resolution.

:I beg to to move, "That the Bill, as amended, be recommitted."

I do not disguise the fact that I view some of the proposals of this Bill as pernicious and anti-Christian, but naturally I do not want to anticipate the. Third Reading of the Bill. I want to draw the attention of the House to a new Clause which was introduced in Committee. That Clause seems to me to be new matter, and I am not convinced that the Committee upstairs gave the same attention to this Clause which they did to the rest of the Bill. I do not wish to challenge the proceedings. I think every Member of the House will admit that the Bill has returned from the Committee in a much more wholesome and practical shape than it left this House on Second Reading. A great deal of valuable and effective work was done there, and I must say my own view of the Bill is much more favourable on its appearance now than as originally introduced in the House. It is, I think, common knowledge that this new Clause 3 has given rise to a great deal of unrest and concern in the country, even amongst friends of legislation of this kind. But for Government Amendments on the Paper I should have felt it my duty to ask you, Mr. Speaker, to rule that this Clause goes beyond the title of the Bill, but I see that there are two Government Amendments down in the name of the Lord Advocate, and as there is a probability of their being carried I think the Clause would then be within the title. The title deals with the punishment of sexual offences, and yet in Clause 3 it is enacted that girls are liable to detention in a home for behaving in the public streets in a riotous manner. I submit that it cannot be held that, under a Bill dealing with sexual offences, a girl who merely behaves in a riotous manner in the streets should be subject to this Bill. We know that a great many more women and girls are engaged in munition works. There may be strikes, and one knows that women and girls sometimes in such labour disputes, perhaps, for a brief time only, take a rather strong view and demonstrate in a way that all trade unionists do not. But for an Amendment on the Paper, I should have submitted that no Clause which made it possible that girls going out on strike, and perhaps displeasing local magistrates, many of whom might be employers, should be in a Bill which only proposed to deal with sexual offences. However, it may be that if the Government can give me an assurance that they will insist upon that Amendment, it avoids the necessity of asking your ruling, Mr. Speaker. I should have thought if it had said "behave in a riotous and indecent manner" it would have come under the title of the Bill. I should like to have some assurance with regard to two of these Amendments as to whether they will hang together, because if that is so it would modify my attitude. I do not refer to Clause 5, because my hon. and gallant Friend (Commander Wedgwood) will deal with that matter. While I have every sympathy with his object, I prefer that he should state his case to the House. May I ask for the meaning of the first Amendment standing in the name of the Lord Advocate, because it is not grammatical? The right hon. Gentleman wishes to insert the words at the beginning of paragraph ( a ) in Clause 3, "being a common prostitute," but then the following Sub-section ( b ) will read "being a common prostitute guilty of any offence under the Vagrancy Act, 1884." If that is inserted, then it would come under the title, and I should not have the same objection to it, although I should still hold some objection, because I do not believe in that kind of legislation, although it would then conform to the title. In the case of the two Amendments providing that the offender must be a common prostitute, and then taking out the word "riotous" and depending upon "indecent manner," my objection to that on a point of Order as being outside the scope of the title of the Bill would be removed.

I do not want to make an academic point if those words are going to be put in, but generally upon this Clause I think it requires further examination, and the point is whether we should consider it here or in Grand Committee. My view is that these discussions are better in Committee. I absented myself from the Second Reading discussion of this Bill, although I felt inclined to oppose it, because I felt that one must give way to the general view of the House. However, I think the Grand Committee is preferable to the floor of the House to discuss this matter. The rest of this Bill was faithfully dealt with by the Committee A great deal of objectionable matter was removed, and that which was left was rendered more innocuous. Clause 3 seems to strike at the sovereignty of womanhood. Personally I have not much faith in any of this kind of legislation decreasing immorality; indeed, I think the effect will be the other way. A great deal of this measure will be a dead letter, as was the case with the last Criminal Law Amendment Bill, and as was the case with legislation dealing with the Black List, for nobody ever hears of the Black List now. This Clause in particular requires very careful scrutiny, and legislation which will not do much for the general welfare should not be made a vehicle for girls and women to lose their natural rights. Women are being legislated against here in a special manner, and I am sure that Clause 3 would not be introduced if women had sat upon the Grand Committee, or if women had votes, and consequently this will be the last chance the House will have of passing legislation of this character.

This far-reaching Clause which has come as a surprise on the House and on the country ought to be discussed in Grand Committee. Of course, I shall be guided somewhat by the attitude of the Government and by the views of my hon. and gallant Friend (Commander Wedgwood). If it is thought that the discussion upstairs and another down here on a subsequent Report stage is taking up too much time of the House, that will have very great weight with me, but I am not so sure that we can do justice to a far-reaching Clause of this kind merely on the Report stage, and after very slight consideration by the Committee. I understand that a good deal of discussion took place on this point and eventually the Government promised to bring up this Clause. They brought up the Clause and it slipped through without being subject to the same careful scrutiny which the other Clauses received. The point which is raised by my Motion is whether that vigilant scrutiny should take place in the whole House, or whether it is serious enough to go back upstairs, and that is a point upon which I am in the hands of hon. Members. I appeal to the House not to make it possible for these dreadful occurrences to be repeated of which we have recently had a lesson. We have just seen an instance of what occurs by action of this kind, when two girls supposed to be behaving in an objectionable manner in the street—

:That is not a matter which can be dealt with here, and the hon. Gentleman is not entitled to give illustrations with regard to the Clause.

:I was only giving that case as an instance which occurred since the Committee met upstairs and had that incident occurred prior to the Committee meeting, this Clause would have been much more carefully examined in Grand Committee. It was only in that respect that I introduced my illustration. I think it will be generally admitted if that terrible occurrence had occurred before the Committee concluded its proceedings they would have given this Clause more careful attention. However, I leave the matter with the House. I do not introduce this as a dilatory Motion, but as a genuine concern.

:I beg to second the Motion. I doubt whether there ever was a stronger case for recommital than this. The Bill as it went upstairs was turned inside out on the Committee, and what was Clause 2 has now become Clause 5. There has been an almost entire change with regard to the Clauses, and Clause 4 as it stands in the Bill is the only Clause that has any semblance or similarity to the Clause as originally brought before the House on the Second Reading. There has never been in my experience such an entire reconstruction of a Bill in Committee as this Bill has undergone. So far as the main part of that discussion was concerned, there was a full Committee dealing with the Amendments that were on the Paper. On the first four or five days on the Bill upstairs there was a very adequate discussion on every point raised, and it was because of that discussion that the Bill was so very largely altered, but unfortunately on the last day, when there were only new Clauses to be dealt with, there was a very poor attendance. I think when a Division was taken there were only twenty-seven Members present out of a total of seventy on the Committee. That was because the Amendment in the Government's name had only been put down that day. Many people were not expecting a Government new Clause, and consequently there was not a large attendance. This Amendment, now Clause 3, was brought forward at the last moment; it was put on the Paper for the first time that morning. Very few of those interested in the Bill were able to be present in order to give that new Clause the thorough discussion that it required. As a matter of fact, the only opposition to the Clause was raised by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Rawlinson), and although his criticism was one of the most important speeches of the Debate, yet, being unsupported and finding nobody to take him up in his view of the Clause, it slipped through.

Anyone reading the Clause would see that no House of Commons could possibly pass it except by accident. All the women in the country are quite rightly furious that such a Clause should be introduced and brought before the House. The pressure outside has been so great that the Government has been forced to put down Amendments upon the Paper to-day. If the Clause wants Amendment now after having been rushed through, then surely we have a right to demand that in respect of that Clause in particular the Bill should be recommitted, and the Clause submitted to the same amount of careful scrutiny as the rest of the Government proposals. There is another crushing reason why the Bill should be recommitted. Not only was the Bill turned inside out, not merely are there only two Clauses at all comparable with the original Bill, not only was this critical Clause introduced at the last moment without adequate discussion, but there are no less than twenty-five pages of new Clauses put down for the Report stage. I have been through most of these new Clauses, and I can honestly say that there is hardly one that was put down on the Committee stage. They have not been considered, and there is in them a possibility of a Bill ten times as large as the one we have in our hands. If there is any common-sense reason at all for a Committee stage of a Government Bill, surely there is a much stronger claim for a thorough consideration in Committee upstairs of these very numerous new Clauses. I do not think the memory of any hon. Member will carry him back to a time when a Bill had twenty-five pages of new Clauses for the Report stage. The title of the Bill is so wide that nearly all of them, so far as I can see, will be in order.

Every crank in the country who hears or invents some new sexual abomination that he does not like drafts a new Clause, and it is put down providing some special punishment for that particular offence. There are certain people who spend their time inventing new crimes and devising new punishments for them. Anyone who has read their Gibbon will recollect that there were certain periods in the Roman Empire when the Emperor, seized with a fit of morality, brought forward a code of laws dealing with moral offences. No one likes these things, but legislation dealing with sexual crime is apt rather to prove an incentive than a deterrent. I believe that the sense of the House will be entirely in favour of the recommital of the Bill. The enormous number of new Clauses, including this new Clause 3, the interest taken by Members in the Bill upstairs, the fact that Members had time to spare for Committee work before and presumably, in the absence of all other Parliamentary Committees upstairs, will be able to deal with it again—everything, it seems to me, is in favour of the reconsideration of the measure as a new Bill. All these new Clauses then could be thrashed out in Com- mittee, instead of being dealt with very inadequately on the Report stage. I therefore support the recommital of the Bill to a Committee upstairs, and I hope that the Government will not be obdurate in the matter. It cannot delay the passage of the Bill ultimately, and it will ensure a thorough consideration of proposals which, to my mind, are ill-thought out at the present time, and are likely to be dead-letters when passed into law.

:I agree almost entirely with every word that has been used by the Proposer and Seconder of this Motion, but I do not think that they have stated all the facts or given all the grounds sufficiently clearly, at any rate, as they present themselves to my mind. I attended every one of those meetings of the Committee upstairs. There were eight or nine days on which we met, and I think I may say with confidence that no Bill ever left a Committee, either a Committee of this House or a Grand Committee, so entirely altered and changed. The Bill, as introduced, contained eleven Clauses. Ten of them admittedly were not urgent at all. The eleventh was a very urgent Clause, at least two years overdue. What happened to these Clauses when they came before the Grand Committee? Three were actually withdrawn by the Government; one was defeated on a vote of the Committee; another was so altered that nine-tenths of it was dropped; one Clause was left to be entirely remodelled; and this Clause 3, which we have specially in mind when we wish the Bill to be recommitted, was added on the last day. It was only sent round to us that morning with our Votes and Proceedings, and naturally before we met at 11.30 no Member was able to form any Amendments and have them on the Paper. The only Amendments that could be submitted were manuscript Amendments. It was, moreover, a Clause totally different in object and method from anything else in the Bill. A number of us were unacquainted with the subject, and we were quite unable to consult the various people with whom we had been in communication on the Bill. I at once took the line that the Clause was open to grave objection, and would have to be vitally modified, but I did not venture to go to the length of forcing a Division in opposing it

These facts alone will prove to the House that the Government introduced this Bill not knowing what they were in for, and not knowing their own minds. They dropped three Clauses, and I believe gladly submitted to the defeat of a fourth. Then for them to put down on the last day the Bill was before Grand Committee a new Clause, and on the Report stage here to propose to amend it and make it a totally different Clause, shows that the Government really do not know where they are on this question. I very much deplore that they do not. There are some matters in this Bill which are good, and there are some which are objectionable. They are all difficult, and at a time like this to bring forward a Bill with the Government spokesmen not knowing what they want, ready to drop a Clause one day, and to propose a new Clause the next is really too trying. It wastes the time of the House, and does not make for progress. I want to make progress with this Bill, but on different lines. I am convinced that the only opportunity of doing so is to recommit the Bill entirely. If my support is worth having, the Government can have it on condition that they recommit the Bill. I think I understand this question. I have studied it, and I am certainly in communication with a number of people who have done so. Let me give the Government some candid advice. Let them recommit this Bill, and they have a chance; but let them refuse to recommit it and the Bill is dead. We may go on to-day and for another day, but instead of having co-operation they will get antagonism, and instead of having confidence they will have suspicion. As one who really wishes to see the law on this matter changed and improved, I do earnestly appeal to the Government and to the House to recommit the Bill, and to let us try to get over the difficulties in some better way than is possible on the Report stage.

:I could not, on behalf of the Government, in any way consent to the recommittal of this Bill at the present stage, nor do I think that any grounds upon which I could reasonably be asked to assent to such a course have been put before the House. I feel the force of the appeal of the hon. Member for Somerset (Mr. King), who promises me his support on a condition. I would gladly have his support, but I cannot agree to recommit the Bill. The grounds suggested for that course in the first instance were two. It is said, first of all, that the Bill went through considerable modification in Committee upstairs. That is true. The Committee gave nine days' time to it, and I am sure a great deal of trouble. My right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary (Sir G. Cave), whom I am sorry to say is not in his place to defend the Bill here, likewise during those nine days gave a great deal of his time and trouble. The result of those manifold discussions was that the Bill was very considerably altered. I confess the fact that nine days have been already given to the Bill seems to me an odd reason for asking that all that consideration should begin again. I really should have thought, where those in charge of a Bill had done their very best to meet criticism, and certainly did not burke either discussion or criticism, that it was difficult to recommend its recommittal afterwards on good ground. There was another ground suggested by the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Commander Wedgwood). He said, "Why, there are no less than twenty-five pages of new Clauses." That is true, but they are not Government Clauses, and they are not Clauses that were discussed or suggested upstairs. I think there is one very small Government Clause—of that I am not quite sure—but substantially these Clauses are entirely new at this stage.

:As my hon. Friend reminds me, three of them are practically a consolidation of the whole of the criminal law in this country. I would put it to the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme, would it not be a very dangerous precedent to say that whenever on a Report stage twenty-three pages of New Clauses appear, then there is a case of recommital? I am afraid there would be a great many recommittals on those terms.

:I am sure the hon. and learned Gentleman would agree that when New Clauses are put down honestly, and not with a view to obstructing the Bill, it is a very different thing from putting down Clauses in order to obstruct.

:I was not suggesting that the new Clauses were put down except for honest reasons. I was assuming that these Clauses were quite honestly put down. But if anybody on the Report stage takes it into his head to try to consolidate the law on the subject, and then says that twenty-five pages of New Clauses is a sufficient ground for recommittal, I cannot agree with that at all. I should have nothing more to say were I not aware that the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth), who has moved the recommital of the whole Bill, did in the first instance, place a great deal of weight in his own mind on the position with regard to Clause 3. I feel that as there are some alterations which we propose to make in that Clause as it left Committee upstairs, it is probably only fair that I should explain, quite shortly, what the scope of our Amendments is. I am emboldened to adopt that course for the reason that when I was asked to take a responsible task in connection with the Bill—it was quite recently—I immediately became aware that there was a great deal of misconception about it. Let me make three points about it. The first is that Clause 3 was never a proposal to make new offences. Nor was it—this is the second misconception—ever the scheme of Clause 3 to make a new punishment; it was exactly the opposite. The proposal was to put in, in lieu of punishment, an opportunity of redemption for young women who had gone wrong, where it was thought by the Courts who tried them that they were not past redemption by treatment otherwise than imprisonment. The hon. Member for Pontefract referred particularly to the words "being a common prostitute." He asked why did we put those words in paragraphs (a) and (b). The reason is this: It is not a crime or an offence either to loiter or importune, and it never was. It is an offence, being a common prostitute, to loiter with a view either to importunity or to solicit. It is only on those terms that the thing is an offence at all. That is so in all the statutory provisions which make this an offence. It is so in England and in Scotland, and in Ireland too. In that respect the Statutes are all the same, although it is true that the same words exactly are not used in each case, sometimes it is prostitute, or common prostitute, or street walker.

:That is why we proposed to put in the words "being a common prostitute loitering and importuning or soliciting." By doing that we make it perfectly clear that there is no new offence created. Secondly, a point was put by the hon. Member for Pontefract with regard to the Vagrancy Act. That depends under what local Police Act the administration is being conducted. It is the case in some localities, if I may mistake not the Metropolitan area of London is one of them, that you cannot get a conviction against a prostitute for loitering and importuning or soliciting, except that is proved to be to the annoyance of the public, and proof of that sometimes fails. If a conviction under that head fails, a prosecution is taken, not for that offence, but for an offence under the Vagrancy Act—that is to say, wandering about in public places, as the Vagrancy Act puts it, in a riotous or indecent manner. Where the importuning by a prostitute is in question, it is a question of wandering about the streets and behaving in an indecent manner. In order to avoid the very risk which the hon. Member suggests, namely, that of a mill-girl coming out of work and kicking up her heels in the streets being prosecuted for this offence, the words "riotous or" are to be taken out, and we propose to insert the words "behaving in an indecent manner." With regard to the Amendments to Clause 3, which was a proposal in lieu of punishment, it was the result of considerable discussion in Committee, and of repeated requests from many quarters in Committee that the Clause should be moulded to this effect. What the hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King) said is not untrue, namely, that there was no very lengthy discussion on the precise terms of the Clause on the last day. There was a discussion in Committee, but it was not very long. What we propose to do in the Clause to-day is to provide that if a person is convicted of being a common prostitute, loitering and importuning or behaving in an indecent manner in the public streets, then, if the Court which convicts that person, thinks that she is under eighteen years of age, it may, instead of punishing her at all, remit her in England to Quarter Sessions, and in Scotland to the sheriff.

:On a point of Order. Is it in order on a Motion for the Recommittal of a Bill, for the hon. and learned Gentleman to explain to the House the Amendments to a particular Clause; and, if so, will other Members of the House be allowed to follow the hon. and learned Gentleman and discuss their objections to that Clause?

:I gather that the object of the hon. and learned Gentleman is to show that there is no necessity to recommit the Bill by reason of the fact that the Government Amendments will convert the Clause from what it is believed to be to something which it really is?

:I understand that the Motion before the House is one for the recommittal of the whole Bill. The hon. and learned Gentleman is now taking the opportunity of explaining how he is going to amend the Clause in the Bill, and he is speaking to the Amendments on that Clause. If he is entitled to explain to the House, on the Motion to recommit, how he is going to amend the Clause, are we not entitled to deal with the Amendments to Clause 3?

:The object of the hon. and learned Gentleman was to conciliate opposition. If he is not successful in doing that, and apparently he is not, I should advise him not to say anything about the Clause. Obviously, if the hon. and learned Gentleman deals with the Clause, it is open to other hon. Members in the House to deal with it also.

:On that point, may I say that the hon. and learned Gentleman's reference to the Clause is really pertinent to my Motion, because it may affect me as to whether I shall go to a Division or not. I understand him to say that the Amendments I desire can be made here, without the necessity of sending the Bill upstairs again.

:Would it not be open to those, who hold strong views on this Clause to pursue the hon. and learned Gentleman on all these Amendments in order to investigate whether they really achieve the purpose he has in mind, and render the Clause less obnoxious than it is? That would lead to a very long Debate.

:I have no desire to do anything which will prolong the Debate. I can say all I have to say about the matter in a very short time. My difficulty is this: I understand that the changes proposed in Clause 3 were made the ground for recommitting the Bill. How can I justify myself unless I indicate to the House exactly what the Amendments proposed are?

:I do not object to the hon. and learned Gentleman stating his case. I only want to be able to follow him.

:The proposal to send girls under eighteen to a home is not a new one. That was discussed on the Clause in Committee. What is new is that instead of sending her to a Court of summary jurisdiction—that is, Petty Sessions —she is to be sent to Quarter Sessions, who will have the power to send her not to prison, but to a home. Secondly, we say the Court ought to have some access to social information in the neighbourhood. Therefore the next change proposed is that Quarter Sessions shall have the opportunity of getting a report either from the probation officer or from a committee appointed by the same authority as appoints the probation officer, of which at least two women shall be members. The only other new proposal is that the Secretary of State shall have the same powers to make rules in regard to discharge, release, probation and treatment, while the girl is in the home, as he has to make rules for that purpose under the Children Act, 1908. Is it reasonable to ask for the recommittal of the Bill or the Clause because we are making it quite clear there is no new offence, because we give the actual power to send to the home to Quarter Sessions instead of Petty Sessions, because we give the right to obtain a report from the probation officer, or because we give the Secretary of State power to make rules?

:Does the hon. and learned Gentleman propose to deal with the suggestion that the intention of the Government to introduce this Clause was inadequately advertised? It only appeared in the papers the morning the Committee met to deal with it, and some of us did not see it until the evening.

:I do not know anything about that, but I do know that the Clause arose out of a very full discussion of the subject. I am not saying that that is a complete answer to a claim for a discussion of details. I am only saying that it cannot be said that there was not a fair discussion upon it.

:My objection is to Clause 3, and not to the Bill; but I think the present is a very inopportune moment to discuss the Clause. I support the Motion on the ground that if you keep the Bill in the House—there are practically 100 pages of Amendments—you are not likely to ensure its passage. There are very many good points in the Bill, and I want to keep them; but there are also very many bad ones, and I want to get them out. The particular thing in the Bill that I object to is Clause 3. We have it from the right hon. Gentleman that Clause 3 was passed without discussion. I understand it only appeared on the Paper the morning the Committee was held. The right hon. Gentleman says the Clause does not constitute a new offence. I say it does. It constitutes a new offence and a new punishment, and it ought to be fully thrashed out as a full Clause, as the Government mean to adopt it, before the Committee upstairs. They first of all bring along a Clause and drop it, like a hot potato, and then bring in a new Clause and carry it without discussion, and then come here and start to amend it. I think they ought to put down the Clause as a whole and let the Committee upstairs have it. The power which is going to be given under Clause 3 is one which, in my opinion, ought not to be put in the hands of anyone. The Committee was so constituted that there was not that proportion of Irish Members that ought to have been on it, and as it affects every woman in Ireland I want it recommitted to a Committee with a proper representation of the Irish party. For these reasons alone I hope the hon. Member will go to a Division, and I shall certainly support him.

:The Lord Advocate has made a complete answer to his critics on the ground of the commitment of the Bill generally, but there really are particular features attaching to Clause 3 which put some of us in great difficulty, not only as to how we may vote but as to what is really best to be done. Clause 3 has undoubtedly elicited throughout the country a kind of opposition and a kind of public interest very different from that elicited by the rest of the Bill. The Clause as it stands is open to the greatest objection and deals not only with matters of inherent delicacy on the personal side, but with most delicate and difficult methods of criminal and judicial procedure. As a perfectly loyal supporter of the Bill as a whole, and entirely sharing what I now understand to be the aim of the Government in connection with Clause 3, I would put this to the right hon. Gentleman: You have a Clause introduced, rightly or wrongly, at the last moment and passed in Committee by accident, of course not by design, and a Committee with a very small attendance. You find that Clause awaking great opposition in many of those quarters from which the greatest support would otherwise proceed, and then, when it comes to this House on Report, at the last moment we find Amendments put down—great improvements in my judgment—by the Government. It is important that this House should carry with it in social legislation of this kind the great body of opinion in the country, which is earnestly desiring to improve the position of women and to protect them from evils, and at the same time to see that the judicial proceedings are not open to obvious sources of error and perversion which attend on this class of case. I am almost always persuaded when my right hon. Friend speaks. I can no more resist his magnetism than I can resist powers far greater than ordinary human powers. But other persons in the country do not know the way these things are put, and there ought to be enough time to make the Clause quite clear to the people in the country, whom it has so much disturbed, and to convince them that in the amended form, and possibly with further amendment, it carries out the good intentions of the Government and yet guards against the perils on the way. For that reason I wish the Government could see their way to recommit the Bill as regards Clause 3. I am not obstructing it. I think, subject to fair discussion, it is a measure which may very well find its way on to the Statute Book. There are, of course, points in it on which I may have an opportunity of expressing my views, but on this Clause it is not enough to satisfy the House of Commons in two or three hours' discussion on Report. What you have to do is to satisfy the people outside as well, and I do not see how that can be done effectively and permanently unless the Bill is recommitted as regards this Clause and comes back to the House in a considered form.

:The character of the discussion which took place upon this Bill in the Grand Committee is an overwhelming argument in favour of recommital in respect of this Clause. I have not a very large experience of Grand Committees, but I have some, and I never was present at a Grand Committee in which a Bill was more utterly transformed. But that only resulted from prolonged and keen debate, with all the freedom that characterises debate in Committee. The Bill was badly drafted, and, as originally introduced, was a most objectionable measure and was difficult to understand, and it would be impossible to carry on the debate which took place in Committee unless under the rules of Committee debate. Under the rules of Report you could not carry on the debate at all. There was abundant proof that the Government had not at all considered the matter sufficiently before they drafted the Bill, and had not put themselves in communication with those bodies in the country which are entitled to be consulted on any legislation of this kind. I was not present more than three or four days, because I was compelled to go away on other very important business, but the Committee sat for nine days. The Lord Advocate's speech is proof positive of the necessity of the recommital of the Bill. Here was introduced at the last moment, on the last day, without adequate notice—I was not aware of it—this Clause dealing with this extremely delicate matter, one of the most contested of all the subjects dealt with in the Bill. It is alleged in defence of that that it was introduced as the result of a great deal of discussion which took place during the consideration of the Bill. That is quite true. Suggestions came from many quarters in favour of some legislation on these lines, but that is no justification whatever, to my mind, for adopting this complicated Clause, raising all kinds of delicate questions which excite great interest in the country, under these circumstances, which are substantially circumstances of no discussion at all. Amendments could not be put on the Paper, and the Clause went through as if it were agreed to, whereas it is perfectly manifest now that it was not agreed to, and Members had no opportunity of studying its actual effect. Now we are face to face with the fact that the Government, as was the case throughout the whole of the Debate, drafted this new Clause without any proper or adequate discussion, consideration, or consultation with bodies in the country which are acquainted with the subject. The consequence is that they have come down now and put upon the Paper, without waiting to be pressed, on the Report stage, a number of Government Amendments—a very unusual course—which they claim to meet all the objections which are likely to be put forward. None of us have had time to investigate them thoroughly, and I do not think it would be possible, without debate, to satisfy ourselves as to what the effect of those Amendments is, and to what extent they remove the objections which have been taken to the Bill. It is a most unfair thing, under the circumstances in which this Clause was introduced and passed in Committee to deny us the right to debate it under the conditions of a Committee Debate.

I have received a pile of communications through the post in reference to this Clause, nearly all of a hostile character. I suppose I have received a dozen communications from important societies of women, including societies of women doctors, nurses, and all kinds of bodies of women entitled to speak on this matter with great authority, and in every single instance without exception the women are opposed to it bitterly. I have not heard of a single women's association supporting this Clause. Hitherto I have been an opponent of woman suffrage, but that fact has made me all the more jealous with regard to this class of legislation which is calculated to inflict injustice upon women. I think at least a dozen bodies of women have sent me communications entirely, and as I gather almost irreconcilably, opposed to the Clause. At all events, what they ask us to do is not to amend it, but to kill it. I think the Government ought to pause and to give the fullest possible opportunity of discussion. It is not enough to amend the Clause. In view of the practically unanimous opposition of the women of the country, it is of the utmost possible importance, if the Clause is to be retained at all, to debate it so fully and freely as to carry with you the public opinion of all these societies. Otherwise I warn the Government that, instead of doing any good, the Clause will do enormous mischief, because if it goes out that we have passed a Clause which is opposed by all the women's societies in the country, and which in their judgment is calculated to inflict injustice on young girls and to lead to blackmail and other horrible results which follow so frequently from this class of legislation, we shall have done very great injury. You have only got to read the Clause to see how necessary it is that we should be very careful in dealing with such matters. This is a Clause which is calculated to put a slur upon those who are dealt with under it. It is a terrible thing for a young girl and it is ridiculous for the Government to take up the attitude that there is nothing objectionable in this Clause. If it is inflicted upon a girl unjustly convicted it is possible under this Clause to inflict one of the most atrocious acts of cruelty that could possibly be imagined. We have in our minds what happened the other day under the law as it stands. What underlies the whole question is that the Clauses are directed against women and not against men. It is that which makes me very uncomfortable in consenting to any of these Clauses. The very words of the Clause deal with women, but the men who are participators in their offence are not to be touched at all. That is the great fault of this sort of legislation. Are you prepared to take up young men in the streets who happen to be found walking about soliciting and put them into homes? Has the Government the courage to propose that? We know perfectly well that no Government has the least notion of doing that. If this thing is to be done at all you would require a considerable number of new homes for the internment of such men. These are the thoughts which oppress me in dealing with this sort of legislation. As we are an assembly elected purely by the votes of men, we ought to be extremely careful not to give the country the impression that we are inclined to support penal legislation against women without the fullest possible discussion and without giving the fullest possible weight to the opinion of women and women's societies.

I have no doubt that this Clause was brought forward with the best possible intentions, and as a mitigation of the law and a means of reforming young girls. It seems to me that in putting a young girl—or young boy for a matter of that —into one of these homes which I think as a rule does not result in improvement —the result must be of necessity punishment to some degree and I think the Government are approaching the things in the wrong light and in the wrong frame of mind, when they talk about this proposal as opening the gates of hope for young girls and being no punishment at all. I was greatly struck amongst the communications we received from a body of people who are organised to assist the police in superintending these matters. They are an official body and they object to the Clause as it stands, and say that in its present form it ought not to pass into law as it may inflict injustice. The Metropolitan Probation officers say:

:A number of Members of this House voted against the commitment of this Bill to Grand Committee on the ground that a Bill dealing with the liberty of the subject should be discussed in Committee of the Whole House where the opinions of the whole House could be expressed, and not in Grand Committee which consists of eighty members, many of whom are unable to be present in the morning, with the result that a full discussion representing the views of the whole House cannot be obtained. The Committee was fairly well attended, but owing to the difficulty of hon. Members attending in the morning there were numerous occasions when Members desiring to be present were not present, and the discussion has shown, I think, to the satisfaction of the House, that this particular Clause was hardly discussed. I do not in any way cast the blame upon the Government, but it arose owing to the special circumstances of the case. In these circumstances I shall vote for the recommittal either of the Clause or of the Bill. I would rather approve of the recommittal of the whole Bill, and I think that would prove to be the easiest course and one which would take less time. I shall vote for one or the other course if there is a Division. I do not want to go into the merits of the Clause, first of all, because I think it is out of order on a Motion to recommit a Bill to do anything except advance reasons for the recommitment of the Bill. Therefore, I will only say that I do not quite understand my right hon. Friend opposite that the Clause does nothing. If that be so, what is the use of the Clause? If it is only an illustration of the existing law, why have the Clause? I think there are strong reasons why this Clause, indeed the Bill itself, dealing as it does with the liberty of the subject, should be discussed by the whole House. The House must remember that when the Bill was sent upstairs it was supposed to be a war measure. It is certainly not a war measure now. All the parts of it that dealt with the War have been left out. That is another reason, and a very strong reason, why the whole House should have the opportunity of discussing the Bill in Committee when, as everyone knows, it is possible to make alterations in the Bill more readily than on the Report stage, where a Member can only speak once unless he moves an Amendment, and where consequently it is not possible to carry on satisfactory discussions.

:As a member of the Standing Committee who attended its deliberations throughout, I may say that the Committee gave most careful consideration to the various provisions of this Bill, and it does not seem to me to be a very reasonable proposal to recommit the whole Bill and to ask the Committee once again to go through its labours afresh. The particular Clause which has been specially mentioned to-day, Clause 3, was a Clause the substance and principle of which had been frequently referred to during the Debates in Committee on other provisions of the Bill, and from many quarters of the Committee a Clause of this character had been asked for and pressed upon the Government. But it is true to say that the details of this Clause did not receive the full consideration which it is desirable they should obtain. There is in many quarters a very strong desire for a Clause of this character. The Probation Officers of London as mentioned by the hon. Member for Mayo (Mr. Dillon) are strongly in favour of the principle of this Clause, and the National Council for Combating Venereal Disease also. In other quarters there is, I will not say uneasiness, but a very keen desire that in every detail this Clause, which does closely touch the liberty of the subject, should be minutely examined. It is a question whether that examination could be complete if it is undertaken for the first time in the whole House under the conditions which apply on the Report stage. Therefore, when I first saw on the Order Paper a Motion for the recommittal of this Bill in respect of Clause 3 it struck me as not being, on its merits, an unreasonable proposal. I would respectfully suggest to the Government whether the progress of the Bill would not be facilitated if they gave the Standing Committee an opportunity for going more thoroughly into this particular Clause than they did when the Bill was before them on the previous occasion.

If this Motion in its present form were accepted I understand that the effect would be that we should immediately have to stop our proceedings upon the Bill, and the Bill straightaway would be sent back to the Standing Committee. I think there are many hon. Members who, like myself, are anxious to see this Bill passed into law and Who wish to make progress with it, who would be sorry if a whole Parliamentary day were wasted and we could not proceed with our discussion of it on the new Clauses and on Clauses 1 and 2. Therefore, I would suggest to the Government that they should give an undertaking to the House that when Clause 3 is reached on the Report stage they will move its omission, and if that is accepted by the House, at the end of the Report stage they could move that the Bill be recommitted in respect of a new Clause, and the new Clause which would then be submitted to the Standing Committee would be Clause 3 as amended by the Amendments which the Government have put down upon the Order Paper. Perhaps you would be good enough to intervene, Mr. Speaker, if I am in any way misleading the House, but in my opinion that is a course which would be within the Rules of Order. It would enable us to proceed with our discussion to-day, and it would also enable Clause 3 to be reconsidered in greater detail by the Standing Committee. I feel sure, from the expressions of opinion which have fallen from many hon. Members, that if the Government would be good enough to fall in with that proposal it would undoubtedly secure the desired discussion upon the Bill.

:My main object is to try and make the progress and the working of this Bill as simple and as easy as I can. I am not blind to the fact which the hon. Member for North Somerset pointed out, that the actual form of Clause 3, as it was discussed and adopted in Committee, did not have a full opportunity of discussion. I acknowledge that, and if it would meet the situation I should be glad to say that I will fall in with the suggestion which has been made by the right hon. Member (Mr. H. Samuel) that we should go right ahead with the Report stage in the ordinary way, and that when we come to Clause 3 the course to be taken should be to move its omission. Then we could put down the Clause as it would stand amended, as if it were a new Clause, and when the Report stage is finished ask for the recommittal of the Bill with respect to the new Clause. In that way we should not only avoid wasting time to-day, but the energies of the Standing Committe when they get the new Clause before them would be concentrated on that Clause. I should, therefore, be glad to meet what I think is the general feeling of the House, and not to press for the discussion of the Amendment to Clause 3 to-day.

:May I ask the hon. and learned Gentleman whether he would move the recommittal of Clause 3, at the end of the Bill, to a Committee of the Whole House?

5.0 P.M.

:No, that was not what was in my mind, and I did not understand that that was suggested. I should propose to move the recommittal to the Grand Committee upstairs, who could reconsider the Bill as a whole.

:I am not at all surprised at the agitation that has run through the whole of this country in connection with this Clause 3 as it stands in the Bill, because it does make a new crime. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] It does as it stands in this Bill make loitering a crime. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I venture to think it does. The addition of the words "being a common prostitute" brings it back to the law as it stands, but the conviction for loitering is a new crime in itself. There is no such crime on the Statute Book, so far as I know, and there is no legal definition of what "loitering" means. The most innocent girl in this country lingering on the pavement for some lawful reason might be proceeded against and brought before the Court as this Clause stands. The agitation for the amendment of this Clause is a legitimate one, and I am very glad indeed that the Lord Advocate, at the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. H. Samuel), has agreed to take the course which has been pointed out.

:I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Bill, as amended, considered.

NEW CLAUSE.— (Punishment of Person Favouring Unlawful Carnal Knowledge of Girl.)

(1) If any person having the custody, charge, or care of a girl under the age of sixteen years favours the unlawful carnal knowledge of that girl, or any attempt to have that knowledge, whether by any particular person or generally, he shall be guilty of a misdemeanour, and shall be liable upon conviction on indictment to imprisonment, with or without hard labour, for any term not exceeding two years.

(2) For the purposes of this Section a person shall be deemed to have favoured the unlawful carnal knowledge, or an attempt to have unlawful carnal knowledge, of a girl who has been unlawfully and carnally known, or in respect of whom such an attempt has been made, as the case may be, if he has caused or knowingly allowed the girl to consort with, or to enter or continue in the employment of, any prostitute or reputed prostitute, or any person of either sex who is of known immoral character, or to be employed in or upon a brothel or any premises which are used for the purposes of habitual prostitution.

(3) The provisions of Sub-section (2) of Section 38 of the Children Act, 1908, shall extend with the necessary modifications and adaptations to the purposes of this Section.

(4) Section 17 of the Children Act, 1908, is hereby repealed.— [ Mr. Chancellor. ]

Clause brought up, and read the first time.

:I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time." This is not so much an alteration of the existing law as a redrawing of the Clause. The Children Act, 1908, had a Clause in this form:

"Any person having the custody, charge, or care of a girl under the age of sixteen years causes or encourages the seduction or prostitution of that girl, he shall be guilty of a misdemeanour,"

and so forth. In consequence of a case which came before the Court of Criminal Appeal in 1910 that was amended by the addition of the words "Or unlawful carnal knowledge"; and other additions were made in other parts of the Section making it uniform with that. As redrafted now, the omission, which is not even provided for under the existing law, is intended to be made good. There is no provision for the punishment of a person attempting to have carnal knowledge unless it is accomplished. I therefore propose to add the words "or any attempt to have that knowledge" in Sub-section (1), and, lower down, in Sub-section (2), "or an attempt to have unlawful carnal knowledge"; and still further lower down, "to consort with, or enter or continue in the employment of any prostitute or reputed prostitute, or any person of either sex, who is of known immoral character." I do not know that I need say more. The only alteration of the existing law is the punishment of the offence. Otherwise, it remains exactly as it is, but the drafting is intended to make it better understood.

Motion not seconded.

NEW CLAUSE.— (Examination of Persons Sentenced to Penal Servitude or Imprisonment or Detention for Sexual Offences.)

(1) It shall be lawful for the Prison Commissioners to make rules with respect to the examination of persons sentenced to penal servitude or imprisonment, or other detention, for any sexual offence, or committed to prison in default of payment of a fine for such an offence, with a view to ascertaining whether they are suffering from venereal disease, and any person who upon such examination is found to be so suffering may be required to submit to such medical treatment and to such further examination from time to time as the medical officer may consider desirable (such treatment or examination not being in contravention of any rule made by the Prison Commissioners), and where a person so sentenced or committed as aforesaid is upon the expiration of his sentence suffering from venereal disease in a communicable form it shall be lawful for the Prison Commissioners either to cause him to be further imprisoned or detained until he is no longer suffering from venereal disease in a communicable form, or to release him upon licence, and every person so further imprisoned or detained, as the case may be, shall be in lawful custody.

(2)There may be attached to any licence issued under this Section and conditions as to medical examination and treatment that the Prison Commissioners may deem desirable, and any such conditions may be revoked, varied, or added to.

(3)If any person so released upon licence fails to observe any condition of the licence the Prison Commissioners may revoke the licence, and in that case the person to whom the licence related shall return to such place as the Prison Commissioners may direct and, if he fails to do so, he may be apprehended without warrant and taken to that place.

(4)Special rules shall be made with respect to the treatment and discipline of persons further imprisoned or detained after the expiration of their sentences pursuant to the foregoing provisions of this Section.

(5)All rules made and conditions attached to a licence by the Prison Commissioners with respect to the examination and medical treatment of persons under this Section must be approved by the Local Government Board.

(6)No rule made or condition attached to a licence by the Prison Commissioners under this Section shall require any woman or girl to submit to examination or medical treatment by a male person, or authorise the examination or medical treatment of any woman or girl by a male person except with her consent.

(7)This Section shall apply to persons sentenced or committed before the passing of this Act as well as to persons sentenced or committed after the passing of this Act.

(8)For the purposes of this Section—

( a )the expression "sexual offence" means any of the offences mentioned in the Schedule to this Act; and

( b ) the expression "detention" means detention in a place of detention provided under the Prevention of Crime Act, 1908— [ Sir G. Greenwood. ]

Clause brought up, and read the first time.

:I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."

I hope that, at any rate, this Clause may have some fair and impartial consideration. Before coming to its proposed provisions, I should like to say at the outset that it is entirely different from the Sub-Clauses which appear in the original Bill—the Sub-Clauses to Clause 2 as introduced by the Home Secretary, and which were abandoned by him really without any discussion whatever—because those Clauses which have been abandoned were Clauses, of machinery, merely to make evidence enabling the accused to be convicted of the new offence created by that original. Clause 2, which now stands as Clause 5 of the Bill. This Clause I have ventured to introduce is simply what I may call a sanitary and a curative measure, and I think I may, at any rate, call it, if the Bill is not a war Bill, to some extent a war Clause. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] We shall see. What it provides is this: It applies equally to persons of both sexes, and therefore there is equality. There is no sexual inequality. It provides that the Prison Commissioners may make rules which must be approved by the Local Government Board, who have the matter in hand. It might be the, Home Office, but that is a detail. I propose the Local Government Board, which may make rules under which a person, male or female, sent either to penal servitude or imprisonment or detention may, upon conviction—not for any offence; it does not apply to all persons but to certain definite offences named in the Schedule I propose—be examined, and if found suffering from venereal disease in a communicable form, may be sent for treatment, and may be detained if necessary beyond the sentence, not necessarily until they are cured because that would be too long. They may be discharged altogether at the end of their sentence, they may be detained a short time, or allowed out on a licence containing conditions with regard to their treatment. The offences in the Schedule I need not go into because they are there set out, but I do want to call the attention of the House to what the Royal Commissioners stated in a paragraph of their Report on this subject. On page 52 of that Report there is a paragraph headed "Prisoners," and what they say is this: The other night the hon. and gallant Member for East Dorset (Captain Guest) gave us some very startling figures with regard to conditions in the Army, showing that even from the computation of the Home Secretary that there are only forty-three per 1,000, that even if we could take that, there would be more than 100,000 men in the Army unable to serve. As he told us, during two and three-quarter years of war there were admitted into our hospitals, 20,000 cases of syphilis, 7,000 of gonorrhœa, and 6,000 of soft chancre, making 33,000 cases; and that in one Canadian camp alone during sixteen months there were 7,000 cases. I believe that I am right in saying that there is very great feeling in the Dominion with regard to this matter.

Mention has been made of the probation officers. I wish to bring before the House one of the most striking letters that have ever been published by people who are intimately connected with this subject and who are working among these people all their lives. I have here a letter beginning in this way: would apply more to women than to men, because women make a trade of this to make money, and so far as I know men do not. I was speaking the other day to a doctor in London who has, I suppose, as large a practice in diseases of this nature as any one man in the Kingdom and he told me that he knew of his own knowledge women who are going about taking, as he said, ten or even more men in the day and spreading this disease.

This letter of the probation officers was followed a very short time ago by a case in the Westminster Police Court, before Mr. Horace Smith. A girl of eighteen who had been placed under Court supervision was charged with resumed disorderly street behaviour. The Court missioner said that it was a typical case. For reasons the girl was sent to the infirmary and afterwards to hospital to be treated at considerable expense. She was ordered to report afterwards, but she took her discharge and immediately resumed her old mode of life. She was now in the same terrible condition as she was when originally charged. The magistrate took a very strong course, which is not often taken, and sent her to prison for six months in default of entering into recognisances.

:The sentence may have been illegal, but I call attention to it because it is a typical case of a girl who could not be dealt with unless in the manner now proposed. She was in this filthy state and was still going on with her trade. I know, of course, that it is said that anything like an examination of a woman in any circumstances is an outrage upon Christian womanhood, but it is an outrage not only on Christian womanhood but on any womanhood, on reason and on humanity that such a state of things as this should be allowed to go on in the community. That seems to me to be the real outrage. To say that the examination of a woman by a woman is an outrage appears to me to be a preposterous statement. I am glad to say that not every woman by every means says that. I have had a letter from a lady who is devoting herself now to wounded Colonials of King Edward's and Queen Mary's Overseas Forces Club, who protests against that view and urges me to do all I can in this matter. I have had a letter from one of the most experienced Metropolitan police magistrates, who says that if this Clause is passed it will be the best Clause in the Bill. It is for the good of the women themselves. They will get treatment in hospital and they will not be allowéd to go on in that terrible state propagating disease as they are doing under the present system.

I am utterly opposed to the persecution of these unhappy women. My only object is to try to do something to mitigate this disease. We have been told by those who know the circumstances, and Royal Commissions have reported that something should be done. Mountains have been in labour, and the result is that the ridiculous mouse of this Bill, so far as venereal disease is concerned, is all that has been brought forth. It will be said that this proposed examination is a violation of individual liberty. I set as high a value on individual liberty as any Member of this House, but individual liberty is a god to be worshipped by rational service, and not a fetish to be senselessly grovelled before. The whole fabric of our society is only maintained by the sacrifice of a great measure of our individual liberties for the welfare of the community, and individual liberty for free trade in syphilis does not seem to me to be consonant with either reason or common sense. By all means give these unhappy women as great a measure of individual liberty as you can, but do not constitute them as licensed purveyors of disease. In the case of small-pox and other infectious diseases we have to sacrifice a great measure of individual liberty. I plead for innocent women, for innocent mothers and children—for mothers, as we know, who are infected by the child in the womb, and for the children who are infected. When we remember what the disease is, that it is visiting the sins of the father not only on the children of the third or fourth but of the fifth or sixth or seventh generation, and that this disease is spreading, coming into our blood just at a time when we are losing our best lives, surely it is right at such a time to say, when a woman or a man has been convicted of any of these offences, that such person may be subject, in prison or in detention, to proper examination and medical treatment, and to say that that is a shocking violation of individual liberty is a preposterous proposition. I hope that those in charge of this Bill may accept such a Clause as this. Unfortunately, they make "I dare not" wait upon "I would," but I beg them to remember that it is not always the shrillest and the loudest voice which is the voice of reason or of common sense.

:It is with the greatest pleasure that I take the opportunity of seconding the new Clause which has just been moved. I think that the courage of the hon. Gentleman in bringing forward an unpopular case is something which must appeal to the House of Commons in dealing with so serious a matter as this. I admit that it reopens a subject which is supposed to have been put on one side, and I am glad of the opportunity to do what little I can in bringing it forward for discussion again in the hope that before it is too late the Government may see their way to make something of this measure. The hon. Member, in moving this Clause, seems to me to have put the technical case as fully as it is necessary to do, but I think that I can see a ridiculous side to the opposition to this proposal, because, if I am not mistaken in my reading of the present Bill, you have no power to examine medically a person who has committed a sexual offence, and has to undergo punishment for it; and if you become aware—as you may easily become aware—that that person is in an infectious condition, that person cannot be compelled to undergo treatment. Under this portion of the Bill the prison authorities are forced to turn prisoners loose, and in such a condition that after they have been out for a very few days they would come under Clause 5 of the Bill. I support the Clause now proposed very strongly, but I would go much further and assist the Home Office with powers to examine all offenders in prison, whatever the offences of which they have been convicted, and wherever there was evidence of a reasonable and practical character to suggest that they might be in an infected condition. There is a great deal of talk about the sanctity of womanhood, and those who take that view will not even discuss the question of examination; but in regard to this Clause now before the House, I would ask hon. Members to recollect the kind of offences to which it would apply. It would apply to persons who have been apprehended and convicted of offences of a character which would in themselves show that they would not be subject to a great trial of their feelings if they were subjected to such an examination. A man who is convicted of communicating syphilis surely is not the kind of man who would be treated unjustly if he were made to undergo such an examination as is suggested.

In the case of women it would be applied to those who have been convicted of immoral offences, and have come under the criminal law, and in their case examination would appear to be exceedingly necessary in the interests of the community. It is no stretching of the long bow to say that in 99 cases out of 100 to which this Clause would apply would be cases of offences which of themselves would point to an examination as necessary in the interests of health, and the prevention of the spread of infection. This question of the examination of women is one of the most serious difficulties that we have to deal with. I quite agree that nearly all the great organisations in England are opposed to dealing with this question either one way or the other; but I think we would have been in a very much stronger position if women, instead of being unreasonable in regard to the whole matter, as they are at the present time. had endeavoured to assist the passage of legislation framed with the object of getting rid of the disease. The result of their attitude has been to block legislation, and it seems to me that in the character of their action on this subject they are incurring very serious responsibility indeed. I cannot but believe that they would regret very much if this country, or even this House, at any rate, the country were able to accuse them that by their action they were waging an aggressive venereal campaign. We have seen that women have been able to postpone legislation of this character, and I believe that until they are included in a general franchise measure and are brought within the borders of the national franchise, we will not be in a better position to deal with the whole question in such a manner as will satisfy both men and women. I feel that I shall be trespassing upon the patience of the House in dwelling if for a few minutes I touch upon the character of the disease with which we have to grapple, though I submit that we ought not to hurry through a measure of this importance. The hon. Gentleman who moved this new Clause to my mind dealt too rapidly with that part of his subject relating to the magnitude of the evil that this Bill is designed to combat. An opportunity was given to discuss this subject on Monday last from a somewhat different point of view and I do not think it is possible that the House can appreciate that there are more deaths from syphilis, if you include still-born children and children under one year, than from any other infection. When I make such a statement as that I think it is only fair to say that it is not too much to ask the House to deal slowly and carefully with legislation so that it may effectually deal with the evil. The evidence I have just cited was that of the Regius Professor of Medicine at Oxford, who has investigated the question, and it seems to be undisputed that the effect upon children of the various diseases arising from this evil is lamentable to the last degree.

It is very difficult to arrive at exact figures, because of the tendency of the doctors is, owing to the reluctance and opposition of parents, not to insert the name "syphilis" in the certificate of death, and therefore it is very difficult to get anything like exact figures as to the number of deaths of children from the effects of this particular disease. The strongest appeal we can make for legislation of this character finds its foundation in the undisputed fact of the terribly evil results which are caused to the next and succeeding generations. I have been able to get hold of some minimum and maximum figures which show that it is true that in a period of thirteen years previous to the War, 18,000 children under five years of age died of syphilis. I think the Clause which is now proposed would be the best in the whole Bill, and I am quite certain that it would have a most valuable effect. The next subject to which I wish to allude in connection with this measure is that of notification. I do not know whether I shall be out of order in referring to it, but it is almost impossible to discuss a measure of this kind without some allusion to a portion of the subject which is of such great importance. It does not appear in any form in any of the Clauses of the Bill.

:The hon. and gallant Gentleman is now reviewing the whole Bill, but I must point out to him that the discussion must be confined to the Clauses which are on the Order Paper, and I must beg him, therefore, to confine himself to the Clause with which we are now dealing.

:I will content myself with having merely raised the point. Later on the Paper, I have a series of Clauses dealing with the question of notification, and if I have an indication from you, Sir, that those Clauses will be in order, I, of course, will not now take up the time of the House further by making my remarks upon the particular point.

:I do not know whether they are in order, probably they are, but we must deal with the Clauses one by one, and keep strictly to the subject of each Clause in turn.

:It is not my intention to delay the House any longer than to say that I support the Clause which stands in the name of the hon. Gentleman opposite.

:I do not think that my hon. and gallant Friend will expect me to accept this Clause. I cannot accept it. It raises a very large question, and one which, in the main, lies outside the comparatively limited scope of this meausre, and there is no materiality or substance in this new Clause, which is a resurrection of a Sub-section of the Clause in the original Bill.

:It is not a resurrection of the Clause in the original Bill, which applied to an offence which was created by that Bill, and the Clause was abandoned. The Clause which I move has no reference to that particular matter, but applies to prisoners who have been guilty of certain offences. I do not think it is quite correct to say that it is a resurrection of the old Clause.

:The Clause contains the proposition of compulsory examination of persons convicted of certain offences of a sexual character. The history of that proposal in Committee is enough, if there were no other reason, to make us determine without any hesitation not to accept it. The fact is that a volume of adverse opinion has reached my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State in regard to this subject, and to assent to a proposition of this kind would be to put our heads into a hornet's nest.

:I was very glad to hear what fell from the Lord Advocate, and I think we ought all to realise, those of us who believe in liberty, that there are Prussians amongst us, admirable men, but men who are infected by the principles of Prussianism at the present time, amongst them some lawyers and others.

:I beg pardon; I would like to know whether the hon. Member accuses me of being infected with Prussianism. If he does so I must repudiate it, but I cannot do so in languáge that could only be used outside the House.

:I am not a soldier, but I have got a little bit of British courage in me, and I will meet the hon. Member where he likes and with whatever weapons he likes. I am here to argue in favour of what I believe to be the traditional idea of liberty, justice, and fair-play. I find little of it in this Clause. It speaks of men or women who on being convicted of any of these offences to which reference has been made being subjected to examination; but it should be remembered that girls, probably not very modest, but girls far from being prostitutes, may be accused of such an offence as loitering, and they would be subjected to this gross indignity of examination. Moreover, if the medical evidence declares that the offender was suffering from syphilis, then the future of her existence is handed over, not to a Court of law, but to the Prison Commissioners, and the Prison Commissioners are apparently to have the power to keep young or old persons convicted of some slight offence in prison, as well as persons convicted of heinous offences, committed to prison for years, without any possible appeal or any opportunity to go before any other authority, but on the judgment of one doctor. A doctor employed in such inquiries and work of the kind may have extreme views upon what is a communicable form of these venereal diseases. It is a very debateable and difficult point as to when venereal disease is in its communicable form and when it is not. Undoubtedly in some cases it is in a communicable form. Some of the diseases go on for years, and certain remedies can do away with or practically obliterate certain features or symptoms of the disease in twenty-four hours. Some doctors will place the length of the communicable stage as a very long period. The tendency will be that these people will be kept in prison, for it will be nothing else, for years on the mere order of the Prison Commissioners.

:The Local Government Board will have the rules signed or keep them in a pigeon hole and let the thing go on. I notice the point that the rules are to be submitted to and approved by the Local Government Board; but it is obvious that there are not sufficient opportunities for appeal, and no sufficient control either of the medical testimony or judgment or of the real interests of the person concerned. Let me call attention to two remarks made by the hon. and gallant Member (Captain Guest). I extremely admire the courage and the obviously fine feeling and good intention with which the hon. and gallant Member has taken up this question. He used one or two expressions which shocked me. He spoke of young women who had to be examined under this Clause as those who would certainly have lost all their "false pride." That was the expression he used. He imagines that a young woman who would object to be examined in this disgusting way—because it is nothing else—would probably, by going about the streets, have lost what he calls her false pride. I say it is a natural instinct of modesty, and cannot be called false pride.

:I said these were persons already convicted of certain offences—which I read out—and that they had arrived at that stage, and that the same arguments did not apply in their case as in that of others not in that position.

:The hon. and gallant Member spoke about "false pride." I do not want to press the point too far. I say most emphatically that you cannot treat those persons as if they had lost the instincts of humanity; and instead of disregarding those instincts you must preserve it to the uttermost, and recall it if possible; and the way of Prussian regulation, inquiry, medical treatment, and unlimited detention, which are the methods which the hon. and gallant Gentleman proposes to employ, are unworthy. The hon. and gallant Gentleman made a most remarkable statement about the medical profession. I am very closely connected and have many ties with the profession. He said that most doctors faked death certificates. It is said that these diseases cause thousands of deaths, and that doctors are faking death certificates to the extent of those thousands. That is, I think, an unnecessary and unjust charge against the medical profession. I believe the legal obligation to put the true cause of death on the medical certificate is not disregarded from any sense of fear of the patient's family by the medical profession. I very much regret that the phrase was used, and I think those who take up the attitude of grappling with these diseases in this Prussian way, by regulation and by ruthlessness, are recommending a series of provisions which are very unfortunate.

:The hon. Member has told us that the Clause would put the liberty of certain people in the power of the Prison Commissioners and of one doctor. That point as to the doctor could be dealt with in Committee on the Clause, and I think it would probably be necessary or advisable to give the power of appeal from the decision of one doctor. I was surprised that the hon. Member has such a poor opinion of the Local Government Board, which is one of the great offices of State and can be trusted on this point. The hon. Member could move an Amendment to permit appeal to Quarter Sessions or some other Court. I am rather surprised the Lord Advocate refused to accept the Clause on the grounds he mentioned. A very similar Clause was in the Bill originally as introduced by the Government. The right hon. Gentleman said, "There is such an agitation against it we must drop it." I presume it would not have been put in the Bill unless it had been carefully considered.

:It was never discussed in Committee. It was withdrawn without discussion.

:That even makes it worse. It was withdrawn not after argument, but owing to outside pressure. That is not right. I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman, for whom I have very great admiration, should have succumbed to such an argument. What is the object of this Bill? As I understand it it is to stop what is undoubtedly a very great evil. It was supposed to increase very much owing to the war, and therefore certain things were to be done in order to stop it. Unless a Clause of this sort is put in the Bill it will be useless, and will not stop anything. Either the House must accept this Clause or drop the Bill altogether. Personally, I am not acquainted with Prussian methods. I do not know what Prussians do in this matter. I remember perfectly well the hon. Member and a great number of hon. Members before the War took German legislation as a pattern, and a great number of things were introduced into this House and passed on the ground that they were done in Germany. If they have something of this sort they are right. I think such a provision is absolutely necessary. I do not say it may not require amendment in Committee.

:I cannot conceive why this Clause is moved, except to delay the progress of the Bill. The Government know that if they accepted it the Bill would never pass. We all know that, and there is no use in blinking the matter. I presume it was introduced for propagandist purposes. I cannot think of anything else. It was seconded by the hon. and gallant Gentleman, who regards himself as a sort of missionary coming into a benighted House and spreading light and knowledge in it. I respect him in that line. If the object is to wreck the Bill and make every Member get numerous appeals from constituents and friends to muster against the Third Reading in order to kill the Bill, then that will be the effect of this Clause. You know what will happen if you bring the Contagious Diseases Act into this Bill. I never was in favour of the Contagious Diseases Acts, and the countries in which they operate have more disease than those in which they were abolished. If you do wish to withdraw the Contagious Diseases Acts have the courage to do so openly and do not start with the corners of a gaol. I cannot imagine why an old Radical like the hon. Gentleman who moved the Clause should have done so. A comprehensive measure on these lines might be worth a sacrifice, and I would like to hear the matter argued. Instinctively I am dead against it, and I object to bringing it before us in this piecemeal way. For the hon. Member to say that this Clause treated men and women equally was trifling with the House. It is clear that the hon. Gentleman had women in mind, and that he admitted it would be against women and not men.

:He admitted that in its operation it would be directed more against women than men. Why pursue that? He says that the Clause is per- fectly equal between men and women, but it is nothing of the kind. When he talks about the doctor he contemplates women being examined. Why is there the provision that a woman without her consent shall not be examined by a male doctor? There is some poor woman, convicted and a despised outcast in gaol, who has only to look to ruin and desolation from people who should give her a helping hand.

She has to choose between whether she will go to the prison doctor and demand the right for some woman to be there and vexing the officials who are attending her and upon whom she is dependent. I cannot understand why this is introduced here instead of in the Venereal Disease Bill upstairs. I kept away from that Bill because I thought my hon. Friend (Sir G. Greenwood) would be making this particular speech, and I did not want to hear it, yet now he has made it here. If you want to kill the Bill or delay it, this is the kind of obstructive thing which will serve your purpose, but I am quite willing to recognise that my feelings of unfriendliness towards the Bill are not those of the majority of the House, and I will not say all I think about this Clause, except that you will never get introduced the Contagious Diseases Acts by such methods as this. Those who used to defend them in the past were outspoken and manly about it, but to attempt to get this compulsory examination in gaol first, in order that it may spread afterwards, is an underhand way of going about it. What would be the next step? It would be said, "Why should a woman have to commit an offence and go to prison before she gets the benefit of our beneficent Clause?" And then they would have her examined before she committed any offence. I cannot therefore allow this thing to come in in this way. I would leave the great women's organisations, when they have a voice, to deal with this question, and I doubt whether my hon. Friend would have the courage to propose it if women had the vote or sat in this House. But I resent it on behalf of my own sex. I consider it revolting and degrading to a degree that young men, simply because they are in prison, some of them perhaps by mistake, should be subject to such a diabolical examination as this. Why not call it an indecent examination? Could anything be more humiliating to a man or a woman than to undergo such an examination as this? I can scarcely think that my hon. Friend is serious in proposing it, and if he wants to get the rest of the Bill I should advise him to withdraw it.

Question put, and negatived.

NEW CLAUSE.— (Amendment of 8 Edw. 7, c. 67, s. 58 (1) (e))

Paragraph ( e ) of Sub-section (1) of Section fifty-eight of the Children Act, 1908, shall be construed as though the words "or the Punishment of Incest Act, 1908," were therein inserted after the words "the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1885."— [ Sir G. Greenwood. ]

Clause brought up, and read the first time.

:I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."

I think the word "under" should be inserted immediately before the words "the Punishment of Incest," so as to make it read properly. The Clause is needed, because under Section 58 of the Children Act, if a father is convicted under the Criminal Law Amendment Act for an offence against her she may be sent to a certified industrial school, but the Incest Act was passed subsequently to the Children Act, and under the Incest Act that could not be done, and there ought to be the same power.

:I have pleasure m accepting this new Clause. The effect is shortly this, that whereas the referred to portion of Section 58 of the Children Act gives the Court power to take a child of a person who has committed an offence against her under the Criminal Law Amendment Act away from home, it does not do the same thing in connection with the Punishment of Incest Act, 1908, and it seems only right and proper that the law should be brought to the point to which this new Clause brings it.

:There is no alteration, I presume, in the age at which a child can be sent to a school in any way by this Amendment?

:Will the right hon. Gentleman accept the Clause with the word "under" inserted?

:No. I think it is quite properly drawn as it stands. Question put, and agreed to.

Clause read a second time, and added to the Bill.

:The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Rawlinson) has on the Paper five Clauses dealing with the same topic of precautions against the spread of disease, and he must select the one upon which he will raise the question. We cannot discuss them all.

:There is a Clause in the Bill which makes it an offence to communicate venereal disease to another person, and this is a Clause which is drafted on those lines, making it an offence not to take reasonable precautions to prevent the spread of the disease. The other Clauses which I have down deal with consulting a doctor.

:That is a "reasonable precaution." We cannot have a discussion as to a man suffering from this disease taking reasonable precautions and then have another discussion as to whether a man suffering from the disease has consulted a medical practitioner.

:We had a discussion upstairs, Sir, in which the hon. and learned Member for Cambridge University asked that the Government should consider whether they could not make some Regulations under the Public Health Act by which those infected might be rendered less infectious, and I promised then to consider any Clause put down and to make some statement as to what I found that the Local Government Board could do in the direction of regulations or advice.

:At what stage of the Bill does the Parliamentary Secretary intend to make that statement?

:I intended to make it at this stage. I thought my hon. and learned Friend would raise the question on this Clause as to whether or not Regulations could be made by which those infected by this disease could render themselves as little harmful as possible to the community; but if that cannot be discussed now, I must take another opportunity.

:I do not object to its being discussed now, but I object to having three or four discussions of what is in effect the same topic, and to inserting three Clauses all dealing with one topic. If this Clause were accepted it would have to be amended to include the other Clauses.

NEW CLAUSE.— (Reasonable Care Against Spread of Disease.)

Any person who to his or her knowledge is suffering from venereal disease in a communicable form and fails to take reasonable precautions to prevent the spread of the disease shall be guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction with a fine not exceeding five pounds.— [ Mr. Rawlinson. ]

Clause brought up, and read the first time

:I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."

I do not propose to touch now upon the doctor question, which is the subject of a later Clause. I want to point out that such discussion as we have had here, and upstairs as well, has dealt largely with the making of criminal offences, and my position is that what we want to do is to prevent the spread of this disease, which we can never do by sentencing people to long terms of imprisonment for a particular offence. The Bill as it stands makes it a serious criminal offence for anybody knowing that he is suffering from venereal disease to communicate it to anybody else. That power would very largely be inoperative owing to the difficulty of getting evidence, and in any circumstances it happens after the injury has been done. I would deal with it as you would with any other infectious disease. If a person has scarlet fever, for instance, there are Regulations made under Act of Parliament to prevent him or her going about and communicating the disease to other people, and they must take reasonable precautions against doing it, and that is what I want done in this new Clause. If a person has got venereal disease he or she ought to take reasonable care not to contaminate his or her neighbours, and if he or she does not do that there should be a liability to a fine not exceeding £5. I attach great weight to this Clause, for the reason that the sooner we make it clear that a person has no right to spread this disease recklessly the better it will be.

I will give a concrete case. A man or a woman may be suffering from this disease —say, a servant. As it is now some fellow servant may know of it, but all that he can do is to say, "You ought to take some steps to prevent spreading it." If he could say, "If you do not take precautions you will be guilty of an offence and can be treated in the same way as if you had scarlet fever and did not take precautions," the person who was warning the person who was suffering would be in a very much better position. I am anxious that some such Clause as this should be inserted. It was suggested upstairs, and I know the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Local Government Board takes this view—for he expressed it once or twice—that in this case prevention is far better than cure. What we are out here for is not to reform the whole criminal law. Judging by some of the Amendments down on the Paper, it would appear that some hon. Members imagine that they are going to do so. That is not so. What we are out for is to stamp out this disease which has been so strongly put before us to-day from the Front Bench. The point has been very strongly made, indeed, that this disease was assuming very serious proportions and something ought to be done to stop it. At the present moment you have got regulations made by the Local Government Board which deal with infectious diseases. This is not an infectious disease. It is a contagious disease. There is no power in the Local Government Board to make regulations dealing with people who are suffering from this class of disease to prevent them spreading it. Therefore it is that I am asking that this new Clause should be inserted. The right hon. Gentleman will, I am sure, assist in any way he can on behalf of the Local Government Board. I submit that there can be no possible objection to adding such a Clause as I propose.

:I beg to second the Motion. Clause 5 of the Bill goes only so far as to penalise wilful commission. There is no mention of carelessness. In the Committee Room upstairs we had some discussion, and it was shown there—and I should like to say one or two words very briefly to inform the House—that there is a real danger of the spread of this disease on the part of people who ought to take precautions, and do not take precautions. I have had representations made to me by those who are very anxious that in this Bill something of this sort should be done to prevent those suffering from this disease—in some cases seriously—from going about their business in such a way as certainly to cause the communication of this disease. For instance, I was told the other day of the case of a man who milks twenty cows. This man is in a very serious condition. He consulted his doctor who told him that he was in a highly infectious condition. The doctor, however, has no power whatever to do anything beyond cautioning him. There is no power by law, so far as I know, which makes it anybody's duty to deal with a case of this kind. It is possible, and probable, that people may be infected who get milk from this man's milking. Many other instances I have had given to me, but I will not trouble the House, because I do not know what powers are going to be given by the Bill of the Local Government Board. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary will tell us in a few minutes. I am sure, however, there is reason, not only for taking precautions and of warning people, but of punishing people who knowingly cause infection in others—different to the remedy provided by Clause 5, which is coming on by and by. I would very strongly press upon the Government authorities that in their Local Government Board measure, unless they are going to penalise the actions of persons who run great risk known only to themselves and to their doctors, of conveying infection to other people in the various cases enumerated, that the House should be allowed to pass this Clause proposed by my hon. and learned Friend.

:We all are aiming at preventing, as far as possible, the spread of this disease. I think the Local Government Board has shown its very earnest desire in this matter by already setting up very many treatment centres all over the country so to do everything in its power to prevent the spread of this disease. I am, however, very greatly disappointed with my hon. and learned Friend. I heard all the discussion upstairs. I had hoped that between then and now my hon. and learned Friend might have proposed some Clause which I could have accepted, and interpreted by means of regulations made by the Local Government Board. I really could not accept this Clause. After all, what does it say? It says:

"Any person who to his or her knowledge is suffering from venereal disease in a communicable form and fails to take reasonable precautions to prevent the spread of the disease shall be guilty of an offence …"

What are reasonable precautions? I think it must be obvious that there must be some Schedule of reasonable precautions! My hon. and learned Friend just now gave the instance of a servant. Surely his fellow-servant has the right to complain if his fellow does not take reasonable precautions against spreading the disease! How would the hon. and learned Gentleman interpret his Clause in that case? The servant would be charged with—doing what? Neglecting what? These are matters which one has to consider very carefully, very minutely, and very specifically, if one has to draw up Regulations to deal with this question. It is quite possible, let me tell my hon. and learned Friend, so far as the law is concerned, for the Local Government Board to draw up Regulations under the Public Health Act, 1875, Section 130. They can draw them up relating to infectious diseases, and they can certainly draw up Regulations in respect of this disease.

:I know that with regard to infectious disease you have these powers. Is my right hon. Friend advised that this is an infectious disease, and not a contagious one? I should like to know that.

:As a matter of fact, I have scarcely any question in my own mind, but I have consulted my advisers, who have told me that this is an infectious disease, and one for which they would be able to draw up Regulations under the Public Health Act of 1875. My hon. and learned Friend has a great deal better right to give an opinion upon a matter of law like this than I have. When, however, he asks me if I have taken advice, I may say I have, and I am informed as I have just stated. What regulations, after all, should we have to make? I think I know what was in the mind of my hon. and learned Friend, and I think I also know what was in the mind of the Committee upstairs. I do think it is important that we should not exaggerate in any way when we are thinking of this disease or the spread of it. What is in mind is the communication of this disease, but in a non-sexual manner. I am given to understand—and I have made many inquiries—that the non-sexual communication of venereal disease, either syphilis, still more gonorrhœa is a vary rare thing indeed.

:Except by heredity. What we thought of upstairs were cases where the disease was communicated by the use of common conveniences at railway stations, or hotels, and by the use of towels, razors, and things of that kind. We do not want the public to get into a panic on this matter. Let it, therefore, be said that all those who have given the greatest study to this question find this suggested means of Communication a very rare thing indeed. It is not so uncommon a thing for surgeons and nurses to get contaminated. But it is a very uncommon thing, a singularly rare thing, for anyone to get this disease by contagion by using any convenience, towel, or razor which has already been used by someone infected by this disease. Therefore the matter is not of that extreme importance that the members think. It is of some importance! If we make Regulations, what sort are we to make? Are we to say, in relation to a factory or a workshop, that a workman who knows he has this disease, shall not use the conveniences provided, or apparatus, and so on; or that no infected person shall be afforded accommodation at a hotel, and therefore he will have to stay in his own house? The proposed new Clause must be more precise. Those with great knowledge and experience of this disease tell me that it would be very difficult to frame regulations with which you could obtain convictions. You might frame regulations which would encourage people to bring vexatious proceedings in Court against someone against whom they had some spite or desired to put to trouble. I do not think we can meet the evil in that way. That is not to say that we cannot do anything. Already the Local Government Board have issued circulars and leaflets of very great value by way of advice. These they have issued by hundreds and thousands to the county councils, borough councils, hospitals, and other places. If hon. Members desire to obtain any of these leaflets I shall be only too glad to supply them. They give various particulars and exhortations, and urge application for treatment, and so on.

:One of the leaflets issued by the Local Government Board to the county councils, and particularly to the treatment centres. The leaflets urge precautions and care to prevent the transmission of the disease. Any practical suggestions made to still further develop their policy the Local Government Board will be glad to consider. I have, however, come to a conclusion, and I have come to a very strong conclusion, that this Clause of my hon. and learned Friend is not really a workable Clause, and that it will be far better to pursue the policy we are pursuing, urging those inflicted to go to the treatment centre, where they can get the very best treatment and free, and that without disclosing their names or addresses or anything of the kind. There they can get advice and treatment, and be urged to take every means in their power to eradicate this disease.

:The right hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary of the Local Government Board professes his anxiety to do all he can to carry out what is the object of my hon. and learned Friend in his proposed new Clause. He does this, he says, by issuing circulars—which we know are not read—by the establishment of systems of curative methods which may be more or less used, and we know are not very largely used! The right hon. Gentleman has certainly received from his medical advisers a very different account with regard to the general opinion of the medical profession than that which I have received from those learned members of the profession who are Constituents of my own. It is all very well to say that you are anxious to carry out certain ameliorative measures, if on every occasion when some Clause is proposed that will really have the definite effect of checking this evil you say that there are great difficulties in the way or that it would be undue interference with liberty. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that I have from medical authority the most urgent expressions of opinion that some further check upon the communicating of this disease is needed. There is about this disease, with all its loathsomeness, a certain guilt and responsibility attaching to it which makes it more easy to fix upon it for the imposition of a penalty for communicating it by any careless act.

It is very easy to say that it would be difficult to lay down any rules or to make regulations of this sort. My right hon. Friend confused the cases, as it seemed to me, of infectious and contagious disease. Infectious diseases no doubt require most careful regulations, because it is extremely doubtful how far infection is spread. You must have careful medical advice in order to decide that, and you must lay down regulations, because the ordinary citizen cannot understand, possibly, where the infection can be taken. In the case of contagious disease, it is very much more easy to ascertain where guilty negligence has taken place. I had a case brought before me by a doctor quite lately where a young man whom he knew was suffering from this disease and was in a dangerous state. Yet he was taking part in private theatricals. The doctor gave him warning and told him he would report the matter, but he had no power to stop it or threaten that the young man was committing an illegal act by taking part in those private theatricals. It is perfectly easy for anyone who is guilty of such an act to know that it is endangering the health of others. A man might convey the infection of scarlet fever or measles in absolute ignorance, but he cannot fail to know that he is a danger when he can spread by contagion this loathsome disease to fellow-creatures, and I regret greatly my right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board does not see his way to accept the new Clause.

:I also should like to express my regret at the failure of the Government to deal with this matter. After all, we left in Committee the responsibility with the Government to deal with this point, and we feel that they ought not to leave it entirely to private Members, and say, "If you do not produce a Clause which is satisfactory to us, then we regard ourselves as having no further responsibility in the matter." I do not myself like this Clause, and I cannot help thinking that my hon. and learned Friend framed it rather because the Secretary to the Local Government Board suggested that, if some Clause of this kind were put down, the Local Government Board might be able to make Regulations to meet it, and that the case could be met on those lines. Personally, I think there ought to be an offence attached to the communication of this disease when there has been negligence on the part of the infected person. One or two cases have been given already. Another case is that of a midwife who had it, and had been cautioned by doctors that it might be possible that she would communicate the disease, and, in fact, she did communicate the disease to a child which she was subsequently attending. I think any person who behaves in that way is really guilty of an offence which should be punished, I do not say by imprisonment, but I think some penalty should be applied to that case.

I would like to point out to the Secretary to the Local Government Board that really the existence of a penalty in some Clause like this would be of real value to his campaign, the importance of which we all recognise. He is distributing these leaflets, to which people attach a certain amount of importance, but, however broadcast they are spread, they may not reach quarters the most necessary. If, however, a doctor is in a position to say, "If you are negligent and communicate this disease, you are liable to penalties," I think he would then be in a strong position to bring pressure to bear upon the person in question to undergo the treatment to which the Local Government Board naturally attaches the greatest possible importance, and so the effect of a penalty of this kind would be very great. Does anyone suppose, for instance, that the fact that there is a penalty attaching to the communication of some infectious disease like scarlet fever does not make us a great deal more careful than we otherwise should be? Similarly, the attachment of a penalty to negligence in the case of this disease, I believe, would make everyone much more careful, and would assist the curative treatment to which the Local Government Board attaches so much importance. I would, therefore, press the Government, if they cannot accept this Clause, to accept it in some other form.

:I would like to add a few words to the appeal of the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. C. Roberts). It seems to me, though I am entirely in favour of the note on which the right hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board concluded his remarks, namely, an appeal to voluntary effort and to gratuitous and secret treatment which is to be spread all over the country, I say, that I believe that, sooner or later, we shall have to make it, in some way, an offence to be negligent in connection with this disease. Negligence, after all, very easily becomes criminal negligence of a disastrous kind when you are dealing with this disease; but I do not like the form this Clause is drafted, which would only make the offence of negligence apply to a man who is suffering from it in communicable form. Here is a case which happened in my own neighbourhood. The father of a family received a girl back whom he thought had been in a situation; but the fact was that in one of our great cities she had got into bad ways, and came back with a terrible disease upon her. The doctor who attended her gave no adequate warning either to the father or mother, and the disease actually was communicated to another member of the family. That was some years ago, but the doctor, I maintain, was distinctly negligent. I know it is another point, but what I am arguing is that this Clause does not go far enough; and, after all, negligence which results in the spread of this disease when it might be prevented by due care ought to be punishable. Then there are cases of which some of us have heard. I have heard of at least two definite cases where medical men, by the use of unclean instruments, have communicated this disease. That is a very serious thing indeed, and I hope and believe that such cases are rare. But I think it would be distinctly a good thing, even for the medical profession, if they were aware that negligence of that kind might bring them into a Court, of law and might result in a fine. Therefore, although I am not quite certain as to this Clause, I do not think the whole subject has been disposed of, and I think sooner or later we ought to have some legal provision by which negligence of any kind resulting in the spread of this disease should become an offence punishable by a fine.

:I ventured to suggest in the Grand Committee upstairs that I thought the Local Government Board had the power to deal with this aspect of the problem by making this a notifiable disease in the sense only that they have done by issuing regulations and instructions to the local authorities, to the credit of the Local Government Board. Followed up by what the hon. Member has now suggested, that would probably be a better way of meeting the difficulty my hon. and learned Friend wishes to meet than the Clause he moved himself. If I may be allowed, I should like to remove some of the fears that my hon. Friend the Member for Somerset (Mr. King) has as to whether the scheme suggested by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board would deal with this subject better than the suggested Clause, and in an effective way. I have only to read Section 126 of the Public Health Act, 1875 (which enables the Local Government Board to make these regulations), to show that practically all reasonable demands are met in the way suggested by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board. Section 126 says:

"Any person who—

(1)While suffering from any dangerous infectious disorder wilfully exposes himself without proper precautions against spreading the said disorder in any street, public place, shop, inn, or public conveyance, or enters any public conveyance without previously notifying to the owner, conductor, or driver thereof that he is so suffering; or

(2)Being in charge of any person so suffering, so exposes such sufferer; or

(3)Gives, lends, sells, transmits, or exposes, without previous disinfection, any bedding, clothing, rags, or other things which have been exposed to infection from any such disorder,

shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding five pounds."

What that Section does not cover Section 130 does, and that is the Section under which the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board says he can meet a number of things which the hon. and learned Member hopes to secure by his Clause. I will not weary the House by reading Section 130, but I would ask that, so far as the right hon. Gentleman can, in making those Regulations, to have even the better Public Health Section of the Public Health (Scotland) Act of 1897 in his mind when the new Regulations are made. It deals. specifically with the question raised about a man in an infectious or contagious condition milking cows. Dealing with this matter, Section 58 of the Public Health (Scotland) Act says:

"No person suffering from an in-factious disease, or who is living in an infected house, shall milk any animal, or pick fruit, or shall engage in any occupation connected with food, or carry on any trade or business in such a manner as to be likely to spread such disease, and any person who knowing himself to be suffering from any infectious disease contravenes this Section shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding ten pounds."

I could give other instances out of the Public Health Acts for England and Scotland to show that all the points sought to be met by my hon. and learned Friend in this new Clause are met in an infinitely superior method in the way I have suggested. We have to be frank on this subject. The object sought by hon. Members who are moving these new Clauses will not be secured in a wide, general, and effective sense by such Clauses as these, but it will be better met by Regulations such as have been made now for nearly a year respecting the notifying of infectious disease. That difficulty can only be met by instruction, education, and suggestions, so that soldiers, sailors, and workmen in workshops and mines and in quarries can be instructed how to prevent the spread of this disease rather than by trying to impose cures by imprisonment, fines, or any other penal method. My own view is that the Local Government Board, who are doing such admirable work as they have done in the way they are pursuing, might follow up the good they have already done by circulating information at polytechnics, gymnasia, workshops and factories, and by neglecting no opportunity by means of which workpeople can secure education as to how to prevent the disease, and if they have the disease by providing them with gratuitous and confidential treatment, so that when they have the disease they shall have every opportunity and facility, under strict and confidential advice, to get it abated and cured.

The Secretary to the Local Government Board is perfectly right when he says there is no justification for the public being in a panic as to the extent of what is known as the innocent dissemination of this particular disease. The fact is that the only available information we have upon this point was an excellent paper contributed in 1911 to one of the medical journals, when it was stated that out of over 110 epidemics there were 3,000 victims in a long number of years of the innocent infection of innocent people, and they occurred mostly with nursing, the hand-feeding of infants, breast drawing, births, vaccination; tattooing, household utensils, dental and barbers' instruments, blowpipes, and the innocent game of kiss-in-the-ring. You cannot impose penalties upon those who indulge in kiss-in-the-ring, and you cannot make them understand what is a reasonable precaution. The occasional touching of a blowpipe is not something you can stamp out by penal enactments of any kind, and it can only be done by the diffusion of education of a general character north, south, east, and west. To know how well this can be done you have only to go to Aldershot and see the extraordinary improvement effected both in the treatment and the diminution of the spread of this disease by the soldiers there picking up a public school tone, decency, and cleanliness, which is all to the credit of the officers there in the last fifteen or twenty years, who have during that time imposed first upon themselves and then on the soldiers who follow them the instructions contained in the circular which has been sneered at this afternoon—a circular containing instruction and advice. This has all been accomplished by persuasion without penal enactment. You have only to go to Aldershot in order to see the splendid advantage of the more excellent way and the results of persuasion, education, and prevention, as against penal enactment.

I will give one fact. When I was an engineer I put in the engines at the Waterworks, Aldershot. At that time, twenty odd years ago, the admission rates for venereal disease into the hospital at Aldershot ranged from 300 to 400 per 1,000 per annum of the soldiers in the garrison, and then the Contagious Diseases Acts were in full force. Then there was the examination of prostitutes, certification of brothels, examination of the men by the doctors, and, in spite of all that, there were 300 to 400 per 1,000 per annum who went into the hospitals. After that the Contagious Diseases Acts were repealed, and, after educational methods had been adopted, a good example set by officers, cleanliness, counter-attractions to the beershop and the brothels, all these were brought before the men by the officers and they were taken up and acted upon; and what is the rate now? It is not 300 or 400 per 1,000, but it is only 43 per 1,000. That disease has not only diminished ten times in the number of admissions to the hospital, but it has enormously diminished the virulence of the disease. All that has been done by circular persuasion and education and by the officers being a model to the men. Having done that in the Army and the Navy, if the Local Government Board will only set itself to its task it can bring about a diminution of the disease in pit, mine, workshop, and factory. It is because I approve of these methods of bringing this matter before the public in preference to the penal Clause which has been moved by my hon. and learned Friend that I ask the Government not to accept this Clause, but go on in their excellent way of combating this disease.

7.0 P.M.

:With the spirit and the general policy that lies behind the speech we have just heard from my right hon. Friend (Mr. Burns) I think most people will be in thorough agreement. At the same time, the note upon which he concluded is not quite the note which was struck by the Under-Secretary to the Local Government Board, because he told us that for his part he would be glad to have such a Clause if it could be well worked. The real truth is that there is no inconsistency between the Clause we are discussing and the policy which has been so admirably placed before us by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Battersea. Supposing it is true that there has developed during recent years a general standard in regard to this horrible matter which makes it part of the ordinary conduct of the decent man that he should realise that this is a scourge to be stamped out. That appears to me to be all the more reason for legislating. If there be somebody who does not hold that standard and is willing to expose anybody to any risk in the matter, I think we should endeavour to set up this legislation. If I thought this Clause ran counter to the general principle which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Battersea has adopted I should have nothing to do with it. I am wholly convinced that the right course is to have a higher standard of conduct in regard to the responsibility of one citizen towards another as opposed to endeavouring to produce an artificial state of virtue by examination and punishment.

Are the two things contradictory? If it be the case that public knowledge and the standard recognised by the masses of the community are by this time so well established and founded as we believe they are, then I think there would not be such a very great difficulty in saying to an individual, "You are a man who has deliberately refused to take reasonable precaution to protect your fellow creatures." Surely this is one of the cases where a certain latitude in the expression of an Act of Parliament may very well be exercised. When you have given a concrete case, a fair-minded tribunal can very well judge whether or not the charge of not taking reasonable precautions is really made out. I know it is very difficult because the circumstances vary, but we may be quite sure that the considerations which my right hon. Friend has put forward will always be in the minds of the tribunal. After all, what is it exactly that the accused person ought to have done that he has not done? That will always be present to the minds of the tribunal. If there be a case in which a general standard of conduct has been most grossly disregarded, if it be shown that a man has been warned again and again that unless he desists from a particular practice he will infect the member of his own trade or workshop, I cannot help thinking a case must arise where a workman might be prosecuted and a conviction might very properly be secured.

There is one other consideration. If this Clause is not inconsistent with the general principle laid down by my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, may it not be a positive advantage that this principle should be put into the Bill? Is it not all to the good to place on record, at a time when Parliament is refusing to go back to the vicious system which my right hon. Friend denounces, that now public knowledge, public education has so far spread the good work done by the Local Government Board and which is being so widely realised, this is the time to say, "Here is a standard to which people ought to conform? We are prepared to conform to it ourselves, and we must set it up for others." These are the general grounds on which, I think, the most powerful speech of my right hon. Friend does not quite do justice to the proposal itself. What I would like to say in conclusion is, would it or would it not add to the value of such a Clause if an attempt was made to define what is meant by reasonable precaution? You cannot do it by publishing a list, but of course you might prescribe the reasonable precautions referred to in the Clause as reasonable precautions specially recommended by circulars of the Local Government Board in proper cases. The Local Government Board do issue circulars from time to time, and my right hon. Friend bears testimony to the great effect that they have. There might be some specific caution given to a man who is in this sad state. I will give an example. He might be cautioned not to use indiscriminately public hair-brushes. If none the less he persists in doing so, I do not understand why, whether he be a member of a club or whether he belonged to some other walk of life, he should not in proper circumstances be brought to book. For those reasons, I would ask even now whether the Government do not think that this Clause by some modification might be made a useful Clause without offending against the sound principles on which such legislation should be passed? It is not an answer to say that under the sections of the Public Health Act the Local Government Board may make Regulations. Regulations have to be published in the "London Gazette," and such publications "shall be conclusive evidence for all purposes." It is not a matter upon which I can speak with the slightest authority, but it is a matter in which we are all in substance agreed, and I would like to know whether the Government do not see their way to utilise this Clause to attain the general object we all have in view?

:I sympathise very much with the attitude taken up by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board (Mr. Hayes Fisher) in thin matter. The whole country would be unanimous in desiring that patients suffering from these diseases should be particularly careful and take every precaution, but that is quite another thing from saying you can bring about that state of things by Act of Parliament. The new Clause would make it an offence, punishable by fine, if a person suffering from these diseases failed to take reasonable precautions, and during the course of the Debate we have heard some discussion as to what is meant by "reasonable precautions." In my view it is much too loose a term to use in an Act of Parliament when you are going to create a criminal offence. That which would be a most reasonable precaution in some cases would be quite unreasonable in others. I understood the right hon. and learned Gentleman who has just sat down (Sir J. Simon) to say, "Admittedly these words are vague, but you can trust the tribunals to decide for themselves the acts or the omission of those acts which will render a person liable to this penalty." In my view, the House of Commons has no right to pass a Statute saying in effect that a magistrate may fine a person who has not done what he (the magistrate) thinks that he ought to have done. The right hon. Gentleman himself made use of this argument in support of the Clause. He said, "Surely, if the general line of conduct is most grossly disregarded, the person ought to be punished." That is not what the Section says. The Section does not say that it is necessary for you to most grossly disregard the general line of conduct; it says if you refrain from taking reasonable precautions, and the instances which have been given were, in the main, those of the doctor and the midwife. Is it suggested that you have done anything to secure extra precautions if you say to a doctor or a midwife, "If you do not take reasonable precautions you will be liable to a fine of £5." The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lincoln (Mr. C. Roberts) said that a midwife was warned that she had got the disease, and ought to take precautions in going about her work; but, nevertheless, she went, and the disease was communicated. Is it likely if a midwife had been told beforehand, "If you go you may be liable to a fine of £5," that she would have refrained from going? The midwife, who knows all about this terrible disease and the risk she is running, would not refrain from going because she was running a risk of a pecuniary fine of £5. Much more is that applicable to the doctor. I think I am right in saying that as the law to-day stands, a doctor or a nurse who by an act of neglect communicated this disease to a patient would be liable not to a penalty of £5, but to civil proceedings for very heavy damages. If a doctor or a nurse were to neglect to take reasonable precautions, and a patient in consequence were to contract this disease, I feel sure that the present risk of a pecuniary penalty is far heavier than any mere fine that you are going to impose. If you really want to punish the doctor, the midwife, or the nurse, who refuse to take reasonable precautions you ought not to do it by means of a fine; that person ought to be sent to gaol.

This is the kind of Clause which in normal times would not be put into a Bill unless it had gone to a Select Committee and evidence had been heard all round. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board says that the danger of the spread of this disease in the way that this Clause is directed to prevent is rare. I believe the medical profession would support that statement. I do not suppose the House knows to what extent the mischief which this Clause is intended to prevent really exists. If the mischief is a very slight one, are you going to impose upon all the people—unfortunately many thousands of people—who are suffering from this disease in one form or another, the risk of being outcast. I do not think it is necessary that they should be treated as if they were lepers, at any rate, the House ought not to pass enactments of this kind except after taking the advice and evidence of those who can best help us, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not accept the Clause. I do not think that we have a right to put a Clause into a Bill because it creates an atmosphere for propaganda purposes. The House is much too apt to put mischievous Clauses in a Bill on the argument that it is a very useful thing to have, that it will do no harm, and although it cannot be enforced it will help to teach people. That is not the object of an Act of Parliament. I quite agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Battersea (Mr. Burns) that we should do better to wait until we have had experience of the institutions which are now being set up, and until we had heard all that they have done.

:I should like to say a few words in support of the new Clause, because I agree with those speakers who have claimed that it is all for the good when you pass this Bill that you should at the same time raise the sanitary standard of people who are suffering from this terrible disease, and I believe this Clause is calculated to give some assistance in that direction. Many references were made in Committee to cases of this kind. Suppose a person suffering from this disease in a communicable form went to a barber's shop and submitted himself to be shaved, well knowing that other people were coming after him and would probably be shaved with the same soap and razor. That surely is the kind of negligence which ought to be discouraged by the fact that the person knows that if he indulges in that recklessness he is liable to be punished. You have only to go about London and you will see public baths used in common. Surely it cannot be a right thing for a man suffering from this disease in a communicable form to use a public bath with a lot of other people. Surely there ought to be this Clause in the Bill to protect people from that risk. I am speaking of the public baths which are free, but there are also Turkish baths and many places which people use in common, and I do suggest that this Clause ought to be accepted in order to protect the general community from the risks to which people may recklessly expose them through sheer thoughtlessness perhaps rather than anything else.

:The debate on this new Clause indicates how desirable it would have been, as I ventured to suggest in the discussion on the Venereal Diseases Bill, if this and the other Bill had been sent to a Select Committee, where evidence could have been taken and where perhaps some more radical method of dealing with these diseases might have been tried after collecting informed opinion on the subject. In Grand Committee on this Bill we were informed by the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary (Sir G. Cave), of whose recovery we were all pleased to learn and who conducted the proceedings upstairs both with ability and courtesy, that another Bill which would be a sanitary Bill was about to be introduced in another place. Some of us were a little disappointed to find that that Bill dealt only with the suppression of unqualified practice. The net result is, first of all, this Bill, making it an offence for a person suffering from a disease in a communicable form to perform certain acts or solicit to perform certain acts, and, secondly, the other Bill suppressing unqualified practice. The problem before the House is really how far it is practicable to apply to these contagious and infective diseases the principles which underlie legislation in regard to infectious diseases. The right hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board indicated that under Section 130 of the Public Health Act there was power to make regulations against the communication of these diseases. I venture to think that is rather straining the letter of that law which was enacted in regard to epidemic, endemic, and infectious diseases, and notably it specified cholera. I am not sure, even if his law is good, that he is right in including these contagious diseases under the title of "infectious," although I readily admit that they may be described as "infective" diseases. It would have been worth while if we could have heard from some Select Committee how far it was practicable—I do not think it is practicable all the way—to apply to these infective diseases the principles adopted in the case of infectious diseases. My right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Mr. Burns) was in error in thinking that these venereal diseases were already notifiable. That is not the case. The notification in a very limited form which I suggested in Committee upstairs, making it the duty of a medical man, on becoming aware of the fact that any person he is treating is suffering from one of these infectious diseases, to notify to the person concerned that he is so suffering in order that he might take all the necessary precautions, was rejected by the Government. If that limited form of notification was rejected, I should not support notification to a third party of any infectious disease. If the right hon. Gentleman is right, and there is power under the Public Health Act to make these regulations, and if such can be and are made, I do not see much value in the new Clause now proposed. No doubt provision should be made against other forms of communicating these diseases than the sexual manner in regard to which the same course has already been adopted. I agree with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board that the cases in which non-sexual communication takes place compared with sexual communication are insignificant. There are cases, such as in the operation of circumcision, in which no doubt the disease has been communicated, but not, of course, by persons actually suffering from the disease. It may surprise the House to know that it was at one time the practice in France to communicate the disease as a prophylactic. In the case of gonorrhœa there is a practice which has been advocated of actually inoculating with the pus of gonorrhœa to treat some ophthalmic diseases. We should be making more rapid progress if the whole question had been referred to a Select Committee where evidence could have been taken, and the problem studied should be how far it might be possible to apply to these infective diseases the principles underlying infectious diseases.

:I object very strongly to passing Acts of Parliament which are absolutely unworkable. If any human being could devise an effective Clause for the purpose of carrying out the object for which this Clause was brought forward, I should be an enthusiastic supporter of it. My view is, and anybody who has addressed his mind to considering the whole subject will agree with me, that the idea of making this a criminal offence is wholly unworkable. You cannot track the people who are guilty. It would not be possible in one case out of 500 unless you had an organised army of spies to follow people about and a special secret police for the purpose, to find out the guilty person. In ninety-nine cases out of 100 it would be quite impossible to prove the offence. It might be brought home in a few cases. If a case occurred of a midwife attending a case with the knowledge that she had this disease, or of a doctor who was so grossly negligent as to keep his instruments dirty, the penalty proposed, in these cases, would be grotesquely insufficient. As for the case of a man using a bath, or a man using hair brushes or getting shaved, do you imagine for a moment that you could deal with such cases under this Clause? The idea is absolutely absurd. It is most unwise to put a Clause in a Bill which, in the vast majority of cases, will be manifestly unworkable, and probably inflict some great hardship.

:In ordinary circumstances I always agree blindfold to any Amendment or measure brought forward by the hon. and learned Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Rawlinson). On this occasion I missed hearing his speech, and therefore bring an independent judgment to the Clause. My reason for objecting to it is that outlined by the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon). To pass an Act of Parliament which you cannot enforce bring Acts of Parliament into discredit. You know very well that in ninety-nine cases out of 100 a man might commit an offence and yet never have it brought home to him. It is no good putting that sort of thing into an Act of Parliament. It is discreditable to this House to pass Acts which cannot be enforced. Even if it is advocated by ex-Home Secretaries, I cannot believe that they honestly want to make everything which is a moral crime into a penal offence when you cannot catch the man who commits the moral crime. The gravamen of my attack on this Clause is that although in the case of male offenders—the man who uses public baths or gets shaved—it is impossible to secure the conviction, and therefore in their case the law will be a dead letter, yet it can be enforced in the case of one class of the community—the prostitute class. It is because I object to legislation for the extermination of prostitutes in a backhanded manner such as this that I object to this Clause. If we are to deal with the whole question of solicitation and prostitution, let us do it after thorough inquiry, and let us have legislation to deal with the whole of that particular class of case. But do not let us try to get in through a back door a Clause here and there which magistrates can use to suppress this offence. It is most discreditable that immediately we are promised a measure of woman's suffrage before the next Parliament comes along we should have to deal with legislation of this class directly affecting women, and not wait until they have the vote, when they might exercise a moderating influence upon our virtuous indignation against a class of women who have very few defenders. The new Clause says:

"Any person who is to his or her knowledge."

It applies to women as well as men. While you cannot enforce it in the case of a man, you could in the case of a woman. It is most unfair to have this partial legislation, and not deal with the whole subject properly. I am tired of having penal enactments brought in dealing only with women and leaving the men out. Every woman who is a prostitute and who has not taken reasonable precautions, according to this Clause is to be fined. It is the prostitute only who will be caught under such a Clause. I am afraid that the Clause will be used to enforce examination upon women who have been put in prison. If they do not know whether they have the disease or not, they are still liable to the fine. If you insert this Clause in the Bill it will be a general incentive to having these women examined in prison, therefore we ought not to pass it. However, I have not heard the arguments of the hon. and learned Member for Cambridge University in favour of the Clause. I am surprised he has brought it forward, because, generally speaking, he takes the reasonable line that if you cannot enforce an Act of Parliament you ought not to pass it. Therefore I speak subject to correction on that point. If it can only be enforced against women we had better vote against it.

:The Debate has shown that the House as a whole is more in favour of the policy of persuasion than the policy of penalties. If it had been possible, in the words of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon) to have a wise Clause framed, I should have been ready to accept a wise Clause, but when the right hon. and learned Gentleman says that a certain latitude is reasonable in a Clause that creates a new criminal offence. it ought to be a very certain latitude, and not a latitude almost as wide as to be general. In this Clause the latitude is far too wide. Under the Clause as drawn it would be a criminal offence if anybody failed to take reasonable precautions. I do not see how you can frame Regulations on those words. While a policy of persuasion is preferable to a policy of penalty, I feel sure the House would be agreed that in the instance given by the hon. Member for the Radcliffe Division (Mr. T. C. Taylor), a milkman who, being badly infected with syphilis, goes on milking cows, although he knows he is in that condition, it ought to be a punishable offence.

:That is exactly what I was going to point out. It will be so if Clause 5 of the Bill is passed. That Clause says:

"A person who is suffering from venereal disease in a communicable form shall not have sexual intercourse with any other person, or wilfully communicate such disease in any other manner to any person."

:Does the right hon. Gentleman think that even the milkman would be convicted of doing anything wilfully to communicate the disease?

:I do. The man knows that he is suffering from the disease. Probably he has been warned that he was suffering from it. That is the case presented to us—that of a man who was informed that he ought not to go on milking cows, but who goes on, and some innocent person gets the disease through his action. Again, I was asked if I had carefully considered whether the Local Government Board had the power under the Public Health Act, 1875, to make Regulations in connection with venereal disease. I took the opinion of my advisers at the Local Government Board this morning. I was not satisfied with just taking their opinion, but I looked at the evidence on which they founded it, and it satisfied me, and I think would satisfy the House, that we have power to make those Regulations. If that is so, we are able to go a long way towards meeting many of those cases which have been brought to our notice to-day in which men or women wilfully disregard injunctions which have been laid upon them, and advice which has been given them, and have spread the disease and infected innocent people as the result of their action and neglect. But I think it will be very difficult to frame those Regulations, and very difficult indeed to say of men who work in factories or soldiers in camp, or sailors on board ship, or commercial travellers, that they shall refrain from doing this or that, shall not use a public convenience, shall not go to an hotel, or sleep in a bed in an hotel, shall not be shaved by a certain barber. All these things will be very difficult indeed to deal with by Regulation, and it is precisely because of that difficulty that I refuse to accept the Clause, which I think is exceedingly loosely drawn. It is extraordinarily difficult to put the exact acts which you are going to make criminal acts into Regulations. But, short of that, I will take note of the opinion of the House that we want to use all reasonable means in our power to give advice to those who are suffering from any form of this disease, and to endeavour in every possible way to take precautions to prevent persons suffering from the disease spreading it, and by any action or neglect on their part infecting innocent people.

:My right hon. Friend (Mr. Hayes Fisher) suggests that a person can be hit under Clause 5 of the Bill who, although he has been warned by his doctor that he is suffering from a certain disease, in reckless disregard of that order goes and milks a particular cow. The words are "wilfully communicates the disease to any person." The man, of course, has no wilful intention in any shape or form. There is nothing wilful about it at all. If I were merely expressing my own view it would not amount to very much, but if my right hon. Friend had attended as regularly as I did in the Committee Room he would have known that I moved to omit "wilfully" and to put in something else, and the Law Officers corroborated the view I am putting forward now, that in this Clause they do not mean to hit a man who is merely recklessly negligent. I proposed to put in "grossly negligent" or some such words, and very properly it was pointed out that that would make the Clause widely different from the present Clause 5. Therefore my right hon. Friend has not hit this man and my Clause would hit him. Let us come to business for a moment. This is a business matter. My right hon. Friend says, "Let us deal with this by persuasion. Educate the people and trust to their honour that they shall never be recklessly negligent in passing it on."

:Do you trust to that for scarlet fever? No. It is an offence punishable by a larger fine than I am suggesting. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Burns) was apparently under the idea that the Local Government Board had power to deal with this at present, and he read out the Clause which applied at present. They do not trust to their common sense in this Clause. It is made an offence for any person suffering from an infectious disease to go into a taxicab without warning the driver. He said it was a punishable crime. I should have thought that by now he would have understood that an offence punishable by a Court of summary jurisdiction by fine is not commonly referred to as a crime. Local Government Board Orders do not often get praise from me, but they know as well as I do that this is not an infectious disease, and therefore does not come under this Clause at all. Therefore the Local Government Board does not trust to common sense in the case of infectious disease, and where people are negligent in the case of infectious disease you make it, not a crime, but an offence punishable before a Court of summary jurisdiction. What I am asking you to do here is to say that where a person is knowingly suffering from this disease and fails to take reasonable precautions he shall be guilty of an offence punishable by fine before a Court of Summary Jurisdiction. The hon. and gallant Gentleman (Commander Wedgwood) made a very eloquent speech which I am sure he never would have made if he had been present when I moved the Clause. Of course he knows no one is more careful than I am not to put on the Statute Book penalties which cannot be enforced. I join issue with him entirely. This is a simple offence which can be enforced in a very large number of cases. You could not get evidence in every case, but you could in a very large number of cases. It does not involve locking anyone up, or any of those things to which he and I in common, I believe, share an objection. It is merely inflicting a fine on a person who is negligent when he has this disease upon him. My right hon. Friend (Mr. Hayes Fisher) has dealt with the question of the difficulty of drawing regulations and said it would be impossible to say that a particular person was not to do this, that or the other. I quite agree, and that is why I did not draft my Clause in that way. I think some of its critics might have taken the trouble to read it. It only applies to people who are suffering from venereal disease in a communicable form and know they are so suffering, and there fore it does not apply to the case of a doctor.

:I did not know the hon. Member was referring to a doctor who was suffering. I agree that if he did that it would be a great offence. Of course, in a case of that kind a doctor is always liable to an action for civil damages, to recover not £10 but a very large sum indeed, because he had acted grossly negligently. If he was suffering from venereal disease I should have no sympathy with him. There are very many other cases where you cannot bring an action against a man, because it does not follow that evil results have happened. But I do not want to have to wait until the disease is communicated to someone else before I can take any action. That is the reason for my Clause. I ask that you shall make it an offence, punishable by fine before a magistrate, if you can prove that a man has not taken precautions to prevent the spread of the disease. "Reasonable precaution" is a legal term. The Courts have to determine every day what is reasonable and what is not, and you have to take into account the surrounding circumstances of the case. What would be reasonable for a well-educated person, as we may regard ourselves as being after the nine days spent in the Committee, would be a standard which you certainly would not expect from a labourer. Every day juries and other tribunals have to determine what is reasonable care—driving to the common danger, reasonable care in driving an omnibus or a motor car —and we can safely trust magistrates with higher powers than these as to whether they shall inflict a fine, and say whether a man has failed to take reasonable precaution, having regard to his position and the various circumstances of the case. such a case as that which was given by my right hon. Friend, where a doctor warned a man time after time that he was not to do a particular thing, and he did it, would certainly come under my Clause, and there is no means of dealing with him at all at present. I press the House very strongly to support me upon this matter, because unless you do something of this kind the Bill is going to be an absolute farce. You will not stamp out venereal disease by inflicting long terms of penal servitude on persons communicating it. You can only do it by the preventive measures which you take in the case of scarlet fever, but which for some reason have not been taken in this case.

:I feel strongly that in a matter of this kind, where you are making a new offence and rendering persons liable to penalties, you ought to define the nature of that offence either in your Statute or else by Regulation. This case is very different from the case of infectious diseases, such as small-pox or scarlet fever, which last a comparatively short time and are of a highly infectious character, and with regard to which everyone knows the kind of precautions which should be taken. Here you have a disease which may last for many years. Infection may conceivably be carried by almost any action that a person quite legitimately takes in ordinary daily life. How is he to know whether or not he is committing an offence against the law? Imagine the frame of mind of any person who at this moment is suffering from syphilis, who knows that he is suffering from that disease, who has been suffering for some time, and who is anxious to do his duty to society at large, and who reads in to-morrow morning's newspapers that Parliament has passed a Clause that any person who to his or her knowledge is suffering from venereal disease in a communicable form, and fails to take reasonable precautions to prevent the spread of the disease, shall be guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction with a fine not exceeding £5. Imagine such a person reading in the newspapers that that has been passed by this House to-day. How is he to know what to do? Who is to tell him what are reasonable precautions and what are not? One thing I think he probably would make up his mind at once to do, and that is to keep as far away as possible from any of the clinics opened by the Local Government Board in order to treat this disease. He would keep it a secret, as he possibly is, so that he would not make himself liable to this new offence.

The whole course of action of the Government and the community at the present time is founded on the policy—and quite rightly—of giving the utmost possible inducement to every person suffering from this disease not to conceal it, not to go to quacks, but to go openly to the clinics opened by the local authorities at hospitals and elsewhere in order to get a well-considered and effective treatment to secure his cure. In order that the man shall not be deterred from that, we have deliberately refused to make this disease a notifiable disease. If this Clause is passed the man will think, "If I go to the hospitals, as I am advised to do, they will know I am suffering from this disease, and they will notify me that I am, and will probably hand me some Regulations." These persons are usually very ignorant, and if you tell them they will think they render themselves liable to penalties if they do not obey whatever they are told. It seems to me a most dangerous thing to impose a new penalty for this offence. I confess I am a little nervous from this point of view of what will be the effect of Clause 5. Certainly the disadvantage of a Clause such as this now proposed, which would deter people from getting proper treatment, would outweigh the advantages. It may be said it is very difficult to define what precautions a man should take. On that ground my hon. and learned friend defends the vagueness of his Clause. When the Legislature tries to save him trouble in this regard he may be making very hard cases for the subject in the Courts. I think it our duty,if we do think reasonable precautions ought to be taken is either to define them in the Act of Parliament or else to get the Local Government Board to define them by Regulation. I do not agree with my right hon. Friend (Mr. Hayes Fisher) that the case is really adequately covered by Clause 5. The word "wilfully" would be a very serious stumbling block when you take a case into Court and all the more serious because you cannot take a case into Court unless the disease has been actually communicated and the damage done. What my hon. and learned Friend aims at is to prevent the disease being communicated and to secure, for instance, that the milker shall be stopped from milking before he communicates it. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board tells us that in the opinion of his advisers—and I do not think they would advise him without authority—there is power in this connection under Clause 5. I do not think they have advised him that there is adequate power under Clause 5, but that there is power under the provisions of the Public Health Act. If that is so I think Parliament will be very ill advised to cover the ground a second time. If there is power under the Public Health Act, 1875, there is power to do what my hon. Friend desires to do, but only by Regulation and only by laying down specifically what are the precautions that ought to be taken. If anything is to be done in this matter—I confess to some doubt as to whether anything ought to be done—it should be in a definite form and not in a vague form. If it is to be done in a definite form, then the Local Government Board are legally advised that they have power to do it by Regulation under the Public Health Act. In these circumstances, I have reached the conclusion that the House will be ill-advised to place this new provision on the Statute Book; and if my hon. and learned Friend goes to a Division, I shall feel it my duty to vote against him.

:After the convincing speech of my right hon. Friend (Mr. Samuel) I have only one point, and that is that this proposed new Clause will hit at the poor and will not hit at the rich. I gather from lawyers in this House—and it is one of the things for which I am indebted to them—that when you are dealing with offences against the person you must not rely upon a fine. In legislation dealing with offences against the person in the Cruelty to Children Act and the Cruelty to Animals Act that was found to be worthless and people may be sent to gaol without the option of a fine for cruelty, wealthy people as well as poor people. This is a case where a fine would be little or no deterrent to the wealthy, but it would come very heavily upon the poor, and the Clause, therefore, must be aimed at the poor. If we are to have a Clause of this description, I would far sooner it included imprisonment rather than fine, and then all classes would be treated alike.

:This Clause would be a deterrent to a rich man if he were to be brought before the Court for behaving in an unreasonable way. I can imagine no greater deterrent than for such a person to be liable to be brought before the Court for reckless disregard of such Regulations.

:A rich man could send a solicitor to the Court, but a poor man cannot do that and cannot find £5. My hon. and learned Friend, in the light of his previous speeches on this question, would maintain that the fine is an equal punishment to rich and poor. It never can be. Probably the employer would have to pay this fine in the case of an employé. Take the case of the milkman who is employed by a large company, and there is a fine to be paid. I am not sure, but I think the fine would almost invariably fall upon the employers. They would probably pay the fine if they thought the man was not really in fault, or if they had some doubt about it. It seems to me that if my hon and learned Friend has any case at all it is a case that goes beyond the £5 fine. But that is not the main reason why I shall vote against him. The main reason has been advanced by my right hon. Friend (Mr. Samuel), and if there were no other reason that reason would lead me to vote against such a Clause as this.

Question put, "That the Clause be read a second time."

The House divided: Ayes, 21; Noes, 107.

Division No. 35.]

AYES.

[7.54 p.m.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

Snowden, Philip

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Harris, Henry Percy (Paddington, S.)

Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Stewart, Gershom

Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole

Nuttall, Harry

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

Craik, Sir Henry

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Watson, John B. (Stockton)

Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H.

Pollock, Ernest Murray

Gretton, John

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

Rawlinson and Sir Godfrey Baring.

NOES.

Arnold, Sydney

Hanson, Charles Augustin

Partington, Oswald

Baldwin, Stanley

Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

Pearce, Sir Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N.E.)

Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

Barrett, Captain R. W.

Henderson, Rt. Hon. Arthur (Durham)

Perkins, Walter Frank

Bathurst, Capt. Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

Henry, Sir Charles

Pratt, J. W.

Beck, Arthur Cecil

Hewins, William Albert Samuel

Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

Hinds, John

Radford, Sir George Haynes

Blake, Sir Francis Douglas

Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Booth, Frederick Handel

Holmes, Daniel Turner

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

Boyton, James

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

Brace, Rt. Hon. William

Ingleby, Holcombe

Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

Bryce, J. Annan

Jackson, Lt.-Col. Hon. F. S. (York)

Roberts S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Bull, Sir William James

Jacobsen, Thomas Owen

Robinson, Sidney

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Johnston, Sir Christopher

Rowlands, James

Carnegie, Lieut.-Col. D. G.

Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dewsbury)

Cator, John

Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney)

Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

Cautley, Henry Strother

Joyce, Michael

Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

Chancellor, Henry George

King, J.

Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth)

Clyde, J. Avon

Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth)

Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

Shortt, Edward

Collins, Sir W. (Derby)

Levy, Sir Maurice

Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton)

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert

Tickler, T. G.

Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury)

Toulmin, Sir George

Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

Walker, Colonel William Hall

Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

Wardle, George J.

Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir J. B.

Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

Watson, Hon. W.

Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward

Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

Wedgwood, Commander Josiah C.

Essex, Sir Richard Walter

McGhee, Richard

White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

Fell, Arthur

Maden, Sir John Henry

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.)

Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

Mason, David M. (Coventry)

Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

Millar, James Duncan

Wilson, Captain Leslie O. (Reading)

Fletcher, John Samuel

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Gibbs, Col. George Abraham

Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness)

Wood, John (Stalybridge)

Goldstone, Frank

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Greenwood, Sir Hamar (Sunderland)

Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Lord

Griffith, Rt. Hon. Ellis Jones

Outhwaite, R. L.

Edmund Talbot and Mr. Primrose

Haddock, George Bahr

Parker, James (Halifax)

NEW CLAUSE.— (Institution of Proceedings.)

No proceedings shall be instituted under the Indecent Advertisements Act, 1889, or for an offence under Section five of this Act except at the instance of a local or public authority unless the consent in England of the Attorney-General or Solicitor-General, and in Ireland of the Attorney-General or Solicitor-General for Ireland shall have been previously obtained.— [ Mr. Glyn-Jones. ]

Clause brought up, and read the first time.

:I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."

This Clause would have the effect of preventing a common informer, or any irresponsible person, from instituting proceedings for the, I think, only two new offences which this Bill creates. The two offences are, first, the new offence under the Indecent Advertisements Act, and, second, that under Clause 5 which makes it an offence for certain acts to be committed by those suffering from these diseases, and, what is very important for the purposes of my argument, not only makes it an offence for these acts to be committed, but for anyone to solicit or invite those acts. Parliament in recent years, when it has created new offences—I am thinking particularly of the Prevention of Corruption Act where it was clear that opportunities were afforded by the new provision to blackmailers—has protected the public from blackmailing proceedings by instituting that in regard to those offences if proceedings are to be taken they must be taken by some responsible authority and not left to the man or woman in the street. That there is real danger of blackmailing in regard certainly to the offence created under Clause 5, I think, must be obvious, because if Clause 5 goes through as it now stands, and it is known to anyone that a given person is suffering from one of these diseases, all that a person has to do is to threaten that individual that he will charge him with inviting or soliciting. Imagine what that might lead to. Imagine a disreputable person getting to know that someone has gone to one of these institutions, or getting to know in some other way that a particular person is suffering from one of these diseases. He may then say, "You are suffering from one of these diseases. I saw you the other day in the street deliberately, as I shall say, solicit someone, and I am going to the Police Court to lay an information against you." It may be said that there is no possible chance of that person succeeding; but think of the mischief that would be done. The irrevocable mischief that would be done would be that the object of the blackmailer would be achieved, and the fact that the person was suffering from this disease would be made public It would not matter whether he was convicted or not, the damage would be done.

I cannot imagine any better blackmailing weapon that could be put into the hands of the persons who are blackmailers than for them to be able to say, "I know you are suffering from this disease; I saw you doing something, not meaning to commit an act, but to solicit. I am going to lay a charge, and if I do the whole world will know you are suffering from that disease." I say that that is not a power you ought to put into the hands of an irresponsible person. It should be left to the police, or, if necessary, the local or public authorities. If it is considered wise to give any member of the public the right to bring these proceedings, then I think it is not too much to give the person who is to be charged the same protection as you give the person who is to be charged with bribing. Before a person can be charged with giving a bribe of a sovereign the Attorney-General's fiat has to be sought. Surely it is not too much to ask that in the case of these offences either the police or local authorities should institute proceedings, or, if not that, anyone outside these categories should seek the consent of the public prosecutor before those proceedings are taken. I hope I have said enough to justify my Clause, and I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman that, if he is going to say that it is rather a lot of trouble for the public to seek in every case the consent of the public prosecutor, that I do not say that that should be done in regard to the police. I say any public or local authority should be allowed to do it. They are the only people who can take proceedings under the Food and Drugs Act, and surely if it is necessary to protect shopkeepers from malicious prosecution in that case it is right to prevent in the case of a man whom you force, and rightly force, to go to an institution people knowing that he has the disease, for when once that is known he is open to this abuse.

:I rise to second my hon. Friend's Motion, because I think he has suggested a very valuable and desirable safeguard in connection with this Bill. I anticipate that the result of this Bill will be that two things will happen. In the first place, there will be an outburst of petty litigation which will be found on every county bench, and perhaps in every petty sessional division. Those curious persons who desire to operate the provisions of our law will make experiments in all kinds of directions, and the result will be that there will be a great deal of litigation which may not be very desirable in itself and may be undertaken principally for the purpose of ascertaining how the law will work out. If this is checked by making it necessary to obtain the fiat of the Law Officer before proceedings are instituted I think that it will be a very desirable hindrance and limit to the instigators of litigation, that it will in a short time define the law and make it clear to the bench of the meanest capacity whether litigation ought to be instituted, and that in consequence it will be limited to its proper dimensions. There is another thing in favour of this Clause, and that is that I anticipate, as I think anyone who has studied this subject does, that there will be a vast amount of blackmail in connection with this Bill, and it is a matter of the gravest consideration whether we do not do as much harm in affording opportunities for blackmail as we do good in reaching a few criminals whose conduct we all regard with disapprobation. I think that the fact that a man has to get the fiat of the Law Officer before instituting these proceedings will make him think twice and thrice before he takes proceedings which in fact are not well founded. I think, therefore, that the impediment placed on the activity of the would-be prosecutor will be a good thing for the community and will not lead to any freedom on the part of criminals, but will save us in the immediate future from a great deal of unnecessary mischief. There is one word I should like to say with regard to my hon. Friend's suggestion that he would like to except from his Clause action which is sanctioned by the police. I am sorry for it. I think myself that the police are much too active and do not show to the best advantage when they are trying to find out new crime and are enforcing prosecution with their own evidence. I presume that that is a matter which can be dealt with if this Clause is adopted, and which may be dealt with when this Clause comes to be considered.

:I do not think it is possible in acts connected with sexual intercourse to turn those acts into crimes without giving opportunities, more or less, for the blackmailer to exercise his diabolical art, and I quite admit that the Amendent would put some difficulties in the way of the blackmailer and diminish the opportunities for blackmail. I quite admit that, but my hon. and learned Friend who is in charge of the Bill (Mr. Clyde) feels that if this new Clause were carried, and if it were not possible for anybody to take action except he took action after the papers had all gone through the process of being examined by the Attorney-General or Solicitor-General—

:There would be very much delay, and the value of this Clause would be very much diminished.

:The Lord Advocate knows, of course, that I am only asking for England and Wales what Scotland already has. The common informer cannot act in Scotland.

:The Lord Advocate will be able to say whether the hon. Gentleman correctly represents the law of Scotland to the House. I am afraid I am unable to say whether he is right or wrong in that, but my hon. and learned Friend does hold the view very strongly that to accept the Amendment would seriously interfere with the operation of this Bill. I know that my hon. Friend makes an exception in favour of the local authorities. If he examines Clause 5 very care- fully, and then asks himself if a person has had a wrong of this kind committed against him or her—that is to say, has had venereal disease communicated by somebody who was suffering from it in a communicable form—is that unfortunate person likely to seek out the local authorities? I very much doubt whether it would be so in actual practice. There may be some exceptions, but I do not think that they are sufficiently strong exceptions, and I can only repeat what my hon. Friend has said as to the probability of this endangering the operation of the Clause so seriously that, in his opinion, it would be useless, and therefore I am not prepared to accept it.

:I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman in charge of this Bill has not been able to accept this Amendment. I confess myself that I wish that it had been moved in a rather different form. It is provided under the Incest Act that no prosecution under this Act shall be conducted without the sanction of His Majesty's Attorney-General, but that this Section shall not apply to any prosecution commenced by or on behalf of any public prosecutor. That is the Amendment that I would have liked to see incorporated in this Bill. The principle of this Amendment is right, but it would be very doubtful in its operation. You would find very few cases in which a man would come forward and say, "I went with this woman, and she infected me with some horrible, contagious disease." But, on the other hand, this may happen: A man may go with a woman who is suffering from venereal disease, and she may give him the disease, and then may say to him, "If you do not pay me so much I will accuse you of having infected me." Those are the things which the Royal Commission, which reported in 1871, had in mind. Their Report is a very valuable one. I do not know whether any hon. Member has studied it except myself. They say on page 18:

"Another suggestion which we cannot adopt is that it should be made penal to engage in sexual connection when the party, man or woman, is to his or her own knowledge infected by this contagion. The creation of such an offence would be objectionable as leading to a number of scandalising judicial inquiries, and the law would be used, if used at all, as an instrument of malice or extortion."

Therefore there is a great deal of danger in this Clause 5 and it was recognised by this Commission, which refused, after full consideration, to recommend the creation of this new offence. Therefore I think it only reasonable to ask that it should be safeguarded in the same way as proceedings under the Incest Act. I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that it might be possible at a later stage to accept such a Clause as I have suggested.

:Most of the discussion on this Clause seems to ignore one aspect of this matter in reference to offences under the Indecent Advertisements Act—that is, the possibility of blackmail. There is the trade rival who is anxious to crush his rival and may be glad to institute proceedings against him expressly for that object. This Clause would simply compel an individual who wishes to bring a case before the Court to go to the local authorities. The local authority would judge whether the case was bonâ fide or not. The individual who simply wanted to pay out someone whom he disliked or wished to injure might very well bring a bogus case before the Court, and once we have legislation which promotes litigation we should endeavour to secure that the litigation shall be bonâ fide and shall not give the opportunity of facilities to bring other people before the Court. I would suggest that every reasonable facility for bringing bonâ-fide cases before the Court will be afforded if this new Clause is adopted, and I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider his decision.

:We may take it from the right hon. Gentleman representing the Government that this Clause cannot be accepted here. But I rise to express the hope that, before this Bill is finally disposed of in another place, that decision should be reconsidered. It seems to me that, with regard to the first part of this Clause, offences under the Indecent Advertisements Act there really is no reason why the consent of the local authority or public authority or the Attorney-General to such a prosecution should not be obtained, and it does seem to me that to allow any person to bring a charge against any other person of indecent advertisements, without any protection of that sort, is opening the floodgates a little too wide. But when we come to the offence under Clause 5 of this Bill I do not think that the Clause is really adequate, though with a slight alteration I think it would be adequate. If this new Clause were accepted a woman who had been made the victim of an offence under Clause 5 of the Bill would have to go to the police or the local authority or the Attorney-General before she could go to the magistrates and claim redress. I do not think that that would be reasonable. Therefore I think that the Government are justified in declining to accept the Clause in the exact form in which it is before us —at any rate so far as the offences under Clause 5 are concerned—but if you put in words that no proceedings should be instituted except by a person injured or a person acting at the instance of a local or public authority or with the consent of the Attorney-General, then I think that that would cover all reasonable cases. I do not think that those additional words would make any difference so far as the Indecent Advertisement Act is concerned, but so far as offences under Clause 5 are concerned, they would make a great difference, because they would enable the man or woman who was made a victim under Clause 5 to go direct to the magistrate without having to persuade the police to act. I hope the Government will reconsider the Clause, and that some such addition as that will be suggested before the Bill is finally dealt with in another place.

:In reply to what the two hon. Members have said, I undertake that the Government will consider the matter, so that this measure shall not give an opportunity to the common informer, for we wish to stop, as far as we can, either this or any other Act being used by blackmailers. I think it might be possible to meet the wishes of the Mover and Seconder of the Clause if we ensure that the person actually injured under Clause 5 will be able to act at once, without incurring perhaps the loss of valuable evidence while waiting for the fiat of the Attorney-General or the Solicitor-General. I will look into the matter again in order that it may be dealt with in another place.

:The rigt hon. Gentleman has not said anything about the Indecent Advertisements Act.

:I was more interested in the question of offences under Clause 5 than the question under the Indecent Advertisements Act, but I admit there is a distinction between these two parts.

:After the promise of the right hon. Gentleman, for which I am very grateful, I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

:I object. I think the House ought to congratulate itself on the statement of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board. I have not been at all satisfied with the attitude taken up on some points of this particular question and the legislation arising out of it, but on this occasion the right hon. Gentleman has shown eminent reasonableness and I personally thank him very much, for one of my grave fears has been and still is, though now it is happily modified, that there might be a whole shoal of unnecessary prosecutions arising under the Indecent Advertisements Act. Whenever a new Act comes into force and whenever there is a new set of offences there are a certain number of chief constables and inspectors in different parts of the country whose attention is given to the Acts in order to try to get up prosecutions. They go out of their way, they neglect their duties, and they do all they can in order to be the first in getting up prosecutions, and in endeavouring to get something out of the new legislation. I am very much more afraid of prosecutions arising under the Indecent Advertisements Act than I am about cases arising under Clause 5; but I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give consideration to both the points that we have in view.

Question put, and negatived.

NEW CLAUSE.— (Increase of Penalty for Certain Offences where the Offender is Suffering from Venereal Disease in a Communicable Form.)

Where a person is convicted on indictment of any of the offences mentioned in the Schedule to this Act, and it is alleged in the indictment and proved that such person was suffering from venereal disease in a communicable form at the time of the commission of the offence, the Court may, if it think fit, instead of passing a sentence of imprisonment, sentence the offender to be kept in penal servitude for any term not exceeding five years.— ( Mr. D. Millar. )

Clause brought up, and read the first time.

:I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."

In moving the Second Reading of this Clause, I would only point out that it is proposed that the Court may sentence a person convicted upon indictment of certain offences mentioned in the Schedule, if proved to be suffering from venereal disease in a communicable form, to penal servitude for a period not exceeding five years. In the case of the offences mentioned in the Schedule the maximum sentence is one of imprisonment for two years. The new offence created by Section 5 of the Bill of having sexual intercourse, etc., while suffering from venereal disease also provides for a sentence of two years imprisonment. It is well-known to all lawyers, and the House generally, that two years is the longest period of imprisonment ever awarded, and the object of this Clause is to permit of an additional penalty of penal servitude if the Court thinks fit to increase the punishment. The Clause is moved in a slightly different form here, so as to meet the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary who in the Committee stage undertook that if I placed on the Paper the Clause in the present amended form he would give it consideration on the Report stage.

:On page 522:— "An attempt to commit rape.

An indecent assault upon a female person.

A misdemeanour under Sections four, five, or eleven of the principal Act, as amended by this Act.

An offence under Section three hundred and twenty-four of the Lunacy Act, 1890.

An offence under Sub-section (3) of Section one of the Punishment of Incest Act, 1908.

An offence under Section fifty-six of the Mental Deficiency Act, 1913.

An offence under Sections forty-six or fifty-six of the Mental Deficiency and Lunacy (Scotland) Act, 1913."

:If hon. Members look at the Schedule they will see that the punishment is not more than two years' imprisonment, but the hon. Gentleman has moved an Amendment which we think we can readily accept, and which enables the punishment to be extended to a term not exceeding five years, and we think that the Amendment will act as a deterrent in respect to this very shocking class of offence.

:I am rather surprised at the turn events are taking. I do not like adding a new and terribly severe punishment suddenly, when, in the dinner hour, there are only about ten or twelve Members present, and when, on the strength of that, you propose to send a man to penal servitude for five years. That is very terrible. [AN HON. MEMBER: "That is the maximum."] Yes, but some judges always give the maximum. There are such judges, and I hope my hon. Friend will never come before them. In the Schedule there are a number of these offences for which men will get five years' penal servitude. They tell me that penal servitude is always enough to kill a delicate man, even if only three years, and it certainly sends quite a number of them out of their mind. I have heard of conscientious objectors who have been sent out of their mind by hard labour, which is a very great deal less. I believe there are a number of offences of this kind in which it is very hard for a man who has been guilty of an indiscretion to get a fair trial. In offences of this kind where there has been a sudden impulse and giving way to passion or inclination, the accused person finds it difficult to put the matter in a fair light, and that must often have resulted in very hard sentences. According to the Schedule of sexual offences there is an offence under Sections 4 and 5 and 11 of the principal Act, under Section 324 of the Lunacy Act, which I suppose means an offence against a lunatic. There are many lunatic women who are sexually abnormal and whose passions and way of carrying on are disgusting. If a man can be led into an offence with such a woman and then sent to penal servitude for five years it is very severe. There are offences under Section 56 of the Mental Deficiency Act. We have got so many matters to go into that I do not propose to take up more time on this proposal except to say that I most emphatically protest against the sudden passage of severe punishments like these when so few Members are present. I do not think it adds to the dignity of the House or the justice of the laws and their administration to pass stringent and terrible legislation of this kind in this sort of way.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause read a second time, and added to the Bill.

NEW CLAUSE.— (Amendment of Principal Act.)

Paragraph (3) of Section thirteen of the principal Act (which relates to summary proceedings against brothel keepers, etc.) and Sub-section (1) of Section five of the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1912 (which relates to the determination of the tenancy of premises on conviction for permitting their use as a brothel, etc.), shall be construed as if the words "or for the purposes of habitual prostitution" were inserted after the word "brothel" wherever that word occurs.

Wherever it is shown that a house, or part of a house, or flat, or other tenement, is used for the purpose of habitual prostitution, such house, or part of a house, or flat, or other tenement should be deemed to be able to be dealt with as a brothel or place used for the purposes of habitual prostitution.

Whenever a disorderly house is entered by the police under a warrant issued against the person keeping or managing the same all persons, male or female, who are on the premises for the purpose of using the same as a brothel should be liable to be proceeded against as persons aiding or abetting in the offence.— [ Sir A. Spicer. ]

Clause brought up, and read the first time.

:I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."

These proposals are the result of a large Conference of Metropolitan mayors held at the Mansion House last year to consider how they might best exercise their powers. The first part of the Clause is an Amendment of the principal Act of 1912, and gives a strict reading to the term "brothel" as indicating a place used for the purposes of habitual prostitution. The second paragraph is in connection with premises used for the purpose of habitual prostitution. At present the local authorities have control over the houses let for lodgings, including furnished rooms, which are let not only late at night, but paid for by night, and the London County Council has authority over common lodging - houses. At present they find themselves unable to try and stop the use of those houses which are now being used in many cases by single women for the purposes of habitual prostitution. The third proposal is for the prosecution of persons found in disorderly houses, and to treat those houses in the same way as gaming and betting houses are treated if there is a raid on them. In such cases the name of everybody found on the premises is taken, and I think in the case of brothels that should be done. The borough authorities feel that all those on the spot found in the house are almost as guilty as those who are allowing the house to be used for the purpose, and if they were not there the house would not be used for the purpose. For those reasons I move.

:I hope very much that the Government will not accept this Clause. I am absolutely and entirely opposed to this proposal. All this was threshed out on the Bill of 1912, when an attempt was made to put in these words, "used for the purposes of habitual prostitution." Section 13 of the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1885, says:

"Any person who (1) keeps or manages or assists in the management of a brothel, or (2) being the tenant, lessee, or occupier of any premises, knowingly permits such premises or any part thereof to be used as a brothel, or for the purposes of habitual prostitution."

Then comes Sub-section (3), which is now sought to be amended, and which says:

"Being the lessor or landlord of any premises, or the agent of such lessor or landlord, lets the same or any part thereof with the knowledge that such premises or some part thereof are or is to be used as a brothel, shall on summary conviction"

be liable to a penalty and so forth. The right hon. Gentleman who moved this new Clause wants to put in that the lessor or landlord of any premises who lets them knowing them to be used as a brothel "or for purposes of habitual prostitution," is to be guilty under this Section, and subject to the penalties there provided; and I may say, in passing, that the penalties under that Section 13 of the Act of 1885 are by this Bill greatly increased. An attempt was made to do this under the Act of 1912, and it was pointed out that this would be the result, that, if it were carried, it would be impossible for any of these unhappy women to have a home at all without a criminal offence being committed. If you think prostitu- tion ought to be put down by law, and if you think it can so be put down, then have the courage of your convictions and make it a criminal offence; but do not harass and persecute these women; do not say, "You are within the law in carrying on your trade, but you must have nowhere to lay your head." I am sure the House will pardon me if I bring to their attention what was said on this question in 1912 by a then Member of this House, to whose words I am sure the House will pay respect. The Bill as introduced contained words to the effect that no house might be let to any one woman who was using it for the purpose of this trade of prostitution; and Mr. Alfred Lyttelton made a speech on that subject which at that time exercised a great influence on the House; and ultimately these words were struck out by the then Home Secretary (Mr. McKenna). Mr. Lyttelton said:

"A house shall not be deemed to be a disorderly house or used for the purpose of habitual prostitution within the meaning of the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1885, or this Act, solely because the occupant thereof is a woman who is there carrying on, upon her own account and independently of the control, direction or influence of any other person, the calling of a prostitute."

The right hon. Gentleman goes on to say: bring them into the Bill of that year, and that we shall really now have heard the last of this matter.

:I want to say how glad I was to hear the speech of the hon. Member who has just sat down. I do not really understand the Mover and Seconder of this Amendment, or their position. They were in the House when this matter came up before. They have not brought forward this proposition in ignorance. How do they expect these unfortunate women to live? They chivy them off the streets and out of the music halls, and now they are trying to turn them out of their houses. It is proposed, in the ordinary way of legislation, to prevent them having a chance of living on this earth at all. It is not only from their point of view that I oppose this Clause. It is because, if this is so passed and introduced into an Act of Parliament, that it will be a powerful lever for blackmail against every single woman living in London Not only so, but it is a reason for blackmail against any householder or flat holder, and without reasonable security in a flat for any single woman. The landlord, too, would be risking these extraordinary penalties under this Act if a charge were made against his tenant. We must remember that many women have to live alone in London, and we need not make it more difficult for them by involving them, or those who let them flats or houses, in the risk of criminal prosecution.

:The hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just spoken has said that if this Clause is passed it will be illegal for any one of these women to have a place in which to live. I venture to say that that is not quite so. Any one of these women, if she likes to give up the trade, will be perfectly at liberty to have a place to live in, the same as other people. I do say this that this is a trade, whatever else one may think of it, exceedingly dangerous to the community. It is spreading death and disease wholesale throughout the community and among perfectly innocent people. I think that the law has a perfect right to say that that trade shall not be carried on, and this is one way of doing it. I should like to point out that it has been said that if you pass this law it means that any one of these women has no right to live anywhere so long as she carries on her trade. I would, however, point out that if you refuse this Clause it means that you are announcing to the world that these women have a right to take premises and to carry on this trade in those premises so long as they keep only to one woman occupying the same place. I think it is a very serious thing indeed. It is very contrary to the interests of society to announce to the world that this is allowed in England. I therefore very much regret that the Government do not see their way to accept the first and second parts of the Clause. In regard to the third portion, I cannot for the life of me see—though the Government have not said they accept it—I cannot see any reason why the men, and for the matter of that the women too, who are found in a disorderly house, if it is entered under a warrant, should be allowed to go. Why should they not be prosecuted for doing what they actually have done, namely, aiding and abetting the person who was keeping the house. I cannot understand it. It seems to me a clear case for accepting the third part of the new proposed Clause.

:I am not quite sure whether three Clauses or one Clause have been moved. A title was read out from the Table, but the title does not appear on the Order Paper, so that it is quite impossible to know whether one or three Clauses have been moved.

:There was only one paragraph moved by the hon. Member, and that was the second Subsection of the Clause.

9.0 P.M.

:I am very much obliged, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to you for making the thing clear. I should like at the outset to say with what very great pleasure I listened to the remarkably able speech of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Peterborough. I listened with all the greater pleasure because I had reason to differ from him at an earlier stage of these proceedings to-day. May I say, and I do so with great sincerity, that if I said any word then which offended the hon. Gentleman I certainly entirely withdraw it with a great deal of pleasure, and express anew my admiration for the hon. Gentleman.

:I quite understand. I am obliged to the hon. Member. Perhaps I ought not to have been so quick to take offence.

:I very much thank the hon. Gentleman. We so often agree, that when we do go apart it is too painful. The references to this matter vary, in my opinion, in the three different Sections. I thoroughly agree with the condemnation which has been passed on the first paragraph. We had this matter in the Committee upstairs. It has been raised previously in this Parliament. It is an old standing question. The word "brothel" is a well-known and understood legal term. It is where two or more women are in habitual practice of prostitution. You cannot, therefore, make it a place where one woman who is sometimes immoral has a home. Whatever is done I hope that we shall not have to trouble long about this first paragraph. I should feel greatly obliged to, and my admiration for the hon. Member for Hackney would be enhanced, if he would see that the sense of the House is against him on the first Sub-section of this Clause, and withdraw it. When you come to the other two, something different is to be said. The early law of brothels was houses used for immoral purposes, and the law especially had in view small dwellings and small houses. London is more and more a place of flats and big tenements, and possibly something in the direction of the second Clause is required.

Then you come to the third part of the Clause, which suggests that when the police raid a disorderly house all the persons found on these premises should be prosecuted. I had that idea myself some time ago, and I had an Amendment to this very effect which I introduced to the notice of the Grand Committee on this Bill, and the discussion that there ensued convinced me for once that I was wrong. I am not always convinced by arguments levelled against me, but I was convinced that in connection with raiding immoral houses it is impossible to go strictly upon the analogy of raiding a gaming club or gambling den. The analogy does not hold for various reasons, and, even if it did, many men would be brought in to whom a stigma would attach out of all proportion to any possible blame which could be produced against them. On the whole, I do not think this is a well-considered Clause, and if it is really given a Second Reading, I have some Amendments which I hope I shall find to be acceptable.

:I very fully appreciate the motives which lie behind the three-fold proposal which this Clause contains, but, while that is so, it is quite impossible for me to accept any part of the three-fold proposal. With regard to Numbers 1 and 2, the reasons have already appeared very fully from the debate that has taken place. It is impossible to make the home of a woman who lives by prostitution a brothel in law. If you do she has no home. It is no answer to say that she can make it a home by living some other way. That is very cold counsel for the poor woman who has become a prostitute, and, however much you may reprobate the conduct or the trade of such a woman, what conceivable right could we have to punish her by saying she must be hounded out of any shelter, however humble? Therefore, with regard to the first two parts of the Clause, I could not possibly accept them. With regard to the third, perhaps I might put the position as it strikes me, and shortly thus: it purposes that wherever anybody keeps a disorderly house, and whenever that house is raided, everybody who happens to be found there—I assume, of course, that they are there either for the purpose of committing fornication or attempting to commit fornication—is to be treated as an aider and abettor in the main object of keeping the disorderly house. It would be impossible to accept a proposal of that kind unless, indeed, we saw our way to make fornication itself a crime. Nobody has ever seen his way to that, and yet this would make it a crime, and even the attempt a crime.

:Whenever it occurred in a disorderly house. Can anybody imagine anything more hopelessly illogical than that? It can make no difference to the analogy where it takes place.

:That entirely destroys your argument with regard to the first part of the Clause.

:I do not think the two arguments have any conceivable connection between them, but, at any rate, the point is that this would make fornication, or the attempt at it, a crime whenever it occurred in a disorderly house. I do not think anything more inconsistent could be imagined. The same act and the same attempt are to involve an offence or not, according as they take place in No. 1 or No. 2 Blank Street. I cannot possibly accept a proposal of that kind. Although I appreciate, as the hon. Member opposite knows, the objects that are behind all this, I cannot possibly undertake to countenance a proposal of this kind.

:With regard to the Clause, I have no wish to be in any way severe, but I am informed that a very large number of these women do not make the rooms their homes. They hire these rooms for the night, or part of a night, and then the lower class go back to the common lodging-houses, which are really their homes. It is only, so to speak, in the better classes that you can at all say that they are their homes. At the same time, I realise the sense of the House is against me, and I quite appreciate the way the Lord Advocate has put it. I beg, therefore, to withdraw.

Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

NEW CLAUSE.— (Duty of Person Suffering from such Disease to Place Himself Under Treatment, etc.)

(1)Every person suffering from any venereal disease or suspecting that he is so suffering shall forthwith on becoming aware of his condition consult a medical practitioner thereon, furnish his correct name and address to such medical practitioner, and place himself under treatment by such medical practitioner or shall attend at some hospital or other place prescribed for the purpose and place himself under treatment thereat.

(2)Any person guilty of a contravention of this Section shall be liable to a penalty of not more than ten pounds.— [ Captain Guest. ] Clause brought up, and read the first time.

The following Clauses also stood in the name of Captain GUEST:

( Where Patient Fails to Attend During Prescribed Period Medical Adviser to Notify Fact and Name of Patient to Medical Officer of Health. )

(1)If any patient who has been attended or treated by a medical practitioner for any venereal disease fails to consult or attend such medical practitioner at least once during every such period as is prescribed, and the medical practitioner has not before the expiration. of ten days after the said period received from another medical practitioner a notice that the patient has changed his medical adviser such first-mentioned medical practitioner shall send to the medical officer of health in a sealed envelope, marked "confidential" in the prescribed form, a notice of the facts including the name and address of the patient.

(2)Any medical practitioner whose duty it is to do so who does not send the said notice to the medical officer of health shall be liable for a first offence to a penalty of not more than twenty pounds, and for a second offence to a penalty of not less than twenty pounds or more than one hundred pounds.

( Power to Order Person Suspected of Suffering from Disease and not Under Treatment to Submit to Treatment. )

(1)Whenever the medical officer of health is satisfied by the certificate of a medical practitioner or by statutory declaration that there is reasonable ground to believe that any person is suffering from venereal disease and is not under treatment by any medical practitioner, he may issue an order in writing requiring such person to place himself forthwith under the care of a medical practitioner.

(2)If such person does not place himself under the care of a medical practitioner a police magistrate, on the complaint of the medical officer of health or of a medical practitioner authorised in writing either generally or in any particular case for the purpose by the medical officer of health, may, by warrant under his hand in the prescribed form and directed to prescribed persons, order the person to be apprehended and to be detained for any prescribed period not exceeding four weeks in any prescribed place.

:I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."

In very few words I shall attempt to reopen a portion of the discussion which upstairs has been put on one side as impracticable; but the opportunity to-day of once more asking the House to reconsider the question is not one which I propose to lose.

:I think I ought to point out, before the hon. and gallant Member begins, that these Clauses are only permissible at all in so far as they differ from the one recently disposed of. I think there is a slight difference between this Clause and the one that was moved by the hon. and learned Member for Cambridge University a short time ago, and negatived. The hon. and gallant Member certainly cannot go over the same ground again. It will only be open to him to point out any difference in his proposal which might induce the House to accept that, although it has negatived the one proposed by the hon. and learned Member for Cambridge University.

:On a point of Order. Might I just remind you, Sir, I was very careful in my speech not to deal with the consulting doctor, with whom the first part of this new Clause of my hon. and gallant Friend deals? In order to save that, I was very careful not to refer to any question of consulting doctors.

:So I understood from Mr. Speaker, but, of course, there is a very clear connection between the two, although they differ. All I want to warn the House is that we must not repeat previous Debates, and must confine ourselves to points which are different.

:I fully conceive the difficulty and the difference. And it is because this Clause particularly refers to an alternative course of action that I hope the House and you, Sir, will give me permission to elaborate it in very few words. The chief objection to all questions of notification seems to me that the House is afraid that anything in the form of compulsory notification will lead to the hiding of the disease instead of its treatment. I quite admit in many cases it may have that effect, but I do believe if you have a public, anxious as quickly as possible to rid themselves of the plague, which I believe most of the population is, and also opportunities placed at their disposal by the State, as I understand the Local Government Board intend to do, the hiding of the disease would take place to a very much lesser degree than is at the present moment expected or feared. I think it only fair to say that notification in the case of tuberculosis was very nearly resisted as strongly as this suggestion; but we soon made up our minds there was only one way of attacking tuberculosis, and that was by compulsory notification and that treatment should immediately ensue. I think I am not stretching a point too far when I say that we are forced to notify several diseases, some infectious, some contagious, such as small-pox and typhus; and also we have to notify bad drains in our houses. I doubt whether any drain is worse than this disease. I also ask the House to consider this point once more from the point of view of a war measure. The notification and the immediate treatment by doctors will have a practical and rapid effect. The longer we deal with palliatives and trust to people's voluntary efforts to handle this difficulty, the longer will our list of casualties remain.

I place this very strongly forward as a war measure to deal with the disease which is ravaging not only our civil population, but our troops who are fighting abroad. These Clauses are taken from an Act passed in one of the Dominions, and which I have reason to believe is working satisfactorily, and I have attempted to adapt them as nearly as possible to the conditions which obtain at home. The first paragraph in the first Clause involves compulsory notification when a person has reasonable grounds to believe that he or she is infected. There is a penalty attached for failure to comply. Up to that point nothing is given away to which anyone need reasonably object; the only point at which the notification may be pursued with unpleasant results is when a person deliberately refuses to undertake or continue treatment. When a person has once been to a doctor and has been recommended a certain course of treatment, and that person, deliberately knowing himself to be in an infectious condition from a disease of this kind, declines to continue the treatment, I think he, should be treated with the utmost severity of the law. [An HON. MEMBER: "Can he go to another doctor?"] The question of disagreement is provided for, and there is complete freedom to go to another doctor. In my second Clause the responsibility devolves upon the doctor—

:We must be clear about what we are doing. I see that there are three Clauses. They all seem to be part of the same question, and they stand or fall together. Therefore, I think it would be much more convenient to taken them as one and not as three separate matters.

:I have been calling them separate because I had handed them in as such, but they can be put together as one because they are consequential, and the story is incomplete without the three. The burden falls upon the doctor if the patient declines to attend treatment, subject to certain contingencies. If in a certain number of days a patient fails to turn up when he has been in- strutted to attend or fails to obtain a notice from another doctor that the patient has transferred his treatment, then the first doctor has to put forward to the medical officer of health the name and address of that patient. The words of the Clause are copied from the Australian Act. The letter is marked "Confidential." In that Clause the penalty for non-compliance with the law falls upon the doctor. To make the story complete, the medical officer must be given some powers to enable him, in the interests of the public, to bring the offender to book, and that is dealt with in the third Clause. It is suggested that the first duty of the medical inspector or authority is to immediately communicate with that patient to remind him or her of the fact that he or she is breaking the law, and order them to reattend for treatment. If this course is not adhered to, and the instructions are again disobeyed, the medical health authority is empowered in this Clause to apply to the Court or the magistrate for power to apprehend, and the Court shall issue an order for apprehension and continued treatment of the patient. It is provided that the patient should not be detained in the prescribed place more than four weeks. That provision is inserted because I quite appreciate the difficulty of dealing with the major disease of syphilis. To order a prolonged treatment, I know, is a very difficult thing to manage, but a period of four weeks of careful, constant attention from medical instructions will go a long way to cure the disease of gonorrhœa, which is the most rampant and which is, perhaps, responsible for more misery than syphilis. That is the shortest explanation I can give of the intention I have of putting down these three Clauses.

There are one or two things in this connection which I would like to say. Great fear has been evidenced by some hon. Members who have spoken to-day of blackmail if you allow policemen to arrest women. A very simple answer to that argument is to have women police. Women have been employed as police in America very widely, and they have proved most efficacious and most successful in Chicago. It is clear that their first object is to help their fallen sisters, and their last intention would be to extort blackmail from them. In conclusion, I would like to say that I think the House of Commons may not have another opportunity for many years of dealing again with this problem, and it. seems to me that if we do not face it now in the full light of day and do our best to make it a practical measure we shall all regret it.

:My hon. and gallant Friend opposite has made several interesting speeches on this disease, and he seems to be obsessed by the idea that we do not appreciate the magnitude or the great importance of the subject with which we are endeavouring to deal. He has described the whole policy pursued by the Local Government Board in regard to this disease as something exceedingly little. I cannot say that this policy can be described as exceedingly little, for it is indeed a giant structure to place upon this Bill. It means the enforced notification of this disease, and then compulsory detention until the disease is eradicated from the system, or so long as a doctor may say it is necessary that the patient should be treated for this disease. It goes very far and I very much doubt whether my hon. and gallant Friend would take many into the Lobby with him on a policy of this kind, a policy far in advance of public opinion. In my opinion, if the House were to adopt it, it would make impossible any such policy as that put forward by the Local Government Board, a policy of persuasion of those who are afflicted with this disease to come out of their concealment and be treated at centres where they would be thoroughly treated in a scientific way. His policy, I think, would thoroughly militate against any such policy of persuasion and education, and would undoubtedly, to my mind, drive these unfortunate victims of this disease to take every possible step to conceal their condition, and would make them most reluctant to come forward in any way and to expose themselves to the kind of treatment which they would get under this Clause.

I think probably he himself realised that this would be the criticism directed against his Clause, and that we should not accept it because it would militate against our policy, which is to drag into light the unfortunte victims of this disease so far as is necessary in order that they may be cured. If anyone finding himself or suspecting himself to be the victim of syphilis or gonorrhœa were compelled at once to go to a doctor, give his correct name and address, and then submit to treatment by a doctor, who might tell him that he was so badly affected that he must treat him for the next six months, eight months, ten months, or even longer, and if he refused to continue that treatment his name and address were sent to the medical officer of health—all these communications passing round and round through many clerks, registered and indexed, can never be confidential in a small neighbourhood where everybody is known—if a person found himself liable to be so treated, I am perfectly certain that he would conceal his disease. He would go to one of these people who hold out all kinds of specious cures which are fallacious and often most pernicious, because they would say, "Well, we can cure you, and what is more, we will never never let your friends, neighbours, relatives, or your employer know that you are suffering from this disease. This strikes quite fundamentally at the whole policy of the Local Government Board, which is really a successful policy so far as we have gone and which is promising very good results. If we could only set up these centres for scientific treatment, making them free, causing everybody to know that they can go to them and need never give their names and addresses and need never be identified, that they can go from one county to another, from Bristol or Norwich to London, or vice versâ, on the plea of going for a holiday—there is a policy which is well worth trying, which is already fruitful in good results, and I strongly advise the House to try that policy before resorting in any way to compulsory notification.

The Royal Commission had this subject much under their review, and they unanimously reported against compulsory notification. My hon. and gallant Friend says that you have compulsory notification of small-pox and scarlet fever. Yes, but the patient is not suffering from some disease which brings him all the torment of shame and reproach. He does not mind all his relations knowing that he has smallpox or scarlet fever. He will probably get a great deal of pity and sympathy. If his employer is a good employer he will probably keep his place open until he is restored to health. Not so if a man lets his employer know that he is badly infected with one of these diseases. Possibly some of the workman's own mates might go to his employer and say "We do not want to see him back when he is cured." If the House thoroughly examines the two policies they will see that it is wise, first of all, to try the policy of free treatment, concealing names and giving everybody the opportunity of coming and getting the most admirable treatment that can possibly be placed at their disposal. That is a policy which ought to be tried before we go in for a policy of public notification. The Royal Commission itself says that after a few years of treatment in this way public opinion may be such that public notification may be of service; but I am perfectly certain if we were to try it now all we should do would be to get more and more concealment of this disease and militate against the very policy which is promising such success.

:I am very glad that the right hon. Gentleman has announced the Government's opposition to this Clause. This is choosing between the two ways. The proposal of these Clauses would appear to me to be absolutely inconsistent with the policy which is at present and already being pursued by the Local Government Board. These Clauses propose to make it absolutely compulsory upon anyone becoming aware of his condition—that is to say, he is to be subject to a fine or otherwiseȔto put himself under the treatment of a medical practitioner, and give his correct name and address, or go to some other place prescribed for the purpose, though by whom it does not say, and there submit himself to treatment. That is absolutely inconsistent with the voluntary and persuasive educational methods which are being adopted, I am glad to hear the right hon Gentleman say, already with success, by the Local Government Board. One has always heard it said, when anything in the nature of compulsion at all correlating to the old Contagious Diseases Acts was proposed, though you will drive it underground. Although I do not agree personally that is necessary under the present war emergency on every point, I do think on these particular proposals that it has a great deal of force. Personally, I think, not only on this point, but on several of the main Clauses of the Bill, that a good deal may be done to injure these voluntary methods. If any of these Clauses can be subjected to the criticism of being indefinite and unlikely to produce any adequate or competent score of convictions in their operations, then I think these Clauses are certainly open to that criticism. Apparently, the cure which is contained in the last few words at the end of the proposed Clauses, apart from the £10 liability, is to be a detention of four weeks. There is not a word about treatment. If this compulsory treatment is to be carried out to its logical extent, and if you convict a man of failing to report himself to the medical practitioner or some institution which is provided for the purpose, you must follow that up by providing that on being so convicted he is to undergo that treatment either at the hands of the medical practitioner or any institution. I know this is a Committee point, but directly you have provided for compulsory treatment at the hands of a medical practitioner or in a prescribed institution, you are practically superseding all the efforts of the Local Government Board, therefore I, for one, shall certainly vote against these Clauses.

:Although I agree with the last speaker that this is a Committee point I rather regret that the Government have not done quite fair justice to the Clause as it stands. The main point of the Clause is that where a person knows that he or she is suffering from this disease they shall take advantage of the free centres set up by the Local Government Board or consult some medical practitioner. That is the essence of the Clause. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government wound up by saying that this was public notification which had been advised against by some Commission. I certainly will not support public notification. I never have done so. This is not public notification. It is idle to say that there is no difference between publicly notifying scarlet fever and small-pox and notifying such diseases as these. There is a great difference. There is no public notification in this Clause. The only notification is that a man has to consult a doctor and tell him. That is not public notification. Provided the man goes on attending the doctor, there is no need for him to take any particular treatment. If he fails to go on attending a medical practitioner, he is to receive a warning and then the doctor has power, in the last event, to have the case brought before a magistrate. It is not fair to call that public notification, because it is not in any circumstances. Public notification of small-pox is made by everybody. Here not a soul can know, except the man himself, if he goes to a doctor that he has gone to him. In nine cases out of ten the doctor knows the man and what he is suffering from. It is a matter of professional secrecy. Unless the man ceases to attend that doctor or some other doctor, it is only in such case that certain things can happen. I express great regret at the unsympathetic tone adopted by the Government towards any attempt to strengthen the dealing with this question. The right hon. Gentleman has complained that some of us have suggested—I have not, but some others have—that he does not realise the gravity of the situation. That criticism has been to a certain extent justified. Merely to set up a centre and say, "You may come here and be treated if you like," and to take no steps to compel people to go to those centres is a very great pity. I cannot see how this Clause is inconsistent with the policy of setting up free centres. Free centres are most excellent things, and I congratulate the Government upon setting them up. I am glad to hear from the right hon. Gentleman that fruitful results have already been obtained. I should like on some other occasion to get further and better particulars of those fruitful results. Certainly the figures we heard the other night were sufficiently staggering to make one wonder if there had been very good results. I hope there will be fruitful results. That, however, does not affect this Clause, which simply makes it an offence for a person, when he has had these facilities given to him free of charge in his district, not to undergo the treatment. These three Clauses are taken from an Australian Act, and as far as one can understand there has been no difficulty in enforcing them in that Dominion. I can see no reason why, subject to certain Committee qualifications, a similar power should not be given here.

:The new Clauses proposed by the hon. and gallant Member are an example of well-intentioned but ill-contrived benevolent despotism. I am perfectly well acquainted with the Act of Western Australia, but that is rather an example to be avoided than a model to be followed. There is some question whether it will be tolerated there and if it will be carried out with effective administration, and whether it would be tolerated in any form in Great Britain. The Clause puts the medical profession in a very unenviable light. The first of the Clauses requires compulsory attendance. Although the profession lays great store by greater scientific diagnosis and methods of treatment, it does not require the assistance of this House in enacting compulsory legislation to compel a person to take advantage of those methods of diagnosis or treatment. The second Clause provides that if a person is in attendance on a medical man and fails to keep up that attendance, the medical man is to play the unenviable part of informer to the central authority. Finally, the last Clause suggests that the medical man should be a joint instrument, along with the magistrate, in securing a warrant. in order to obtain the compulsory apprehension of the patient and, presumably, his compulsory treatment. I agree with several previous speakers that that is an attempt to make haste too quickly. These are diseases which only recently were refused treatment in many large hospitals because they were regarded as being of a shameful character. The hospitals are now receiving subsidies from the State to the extent of 75 per cent. of the cost. Greater opportunities for the treatment of these diseases are being provided from public money than for any other disease. This is not a time when it should be necessary, in addition to providing greater facilities, to resort to these most drastic proposals. It looks like distrust of the facilities you have set up at large expense that you should need compulsorily to enforce them. These diseases differ from infectious diseases not only in the way indicated by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board; not only is there an element of shame in them, but in most cases the sufferer is the willing victim and not a sufferer in spite of himself, as is the case with ordinary infectious diseases. That is an important factor to be borne in mind when you press the analogy of the treatment of infectious diseases and apply it to these contagious diseases. The policy of the Local Government Board is the right one, and so far as I can learn from members of the medical profession, I do not find any request for this co-operation with the magistrate and the policeman in securing that their diagnosis should be taken advantage of or their prescriptions carried out.

:I was rather surprised to hear the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Rawlinson) state that certainly this was not public notification. The fact is beyond doubt. For instance, a man is placed at once, as a marked subject, in the hands of the medical profession. Suppose it is in a semi-rural district where there are perhaps one or two doctors practising within four or five miles and the man is a poor man. What is he to do? He goes to one doctor and is dissatisfied with his treatment, and has not only to go to another, but has to hand over to him his previous medical man's name and address. That may very easily set up a good deal of friction and unpleasantness between two neighbouring competing medical men—at any rate there are two medical men who have this man's name and case and delinquency before them—and in the event of the man's further recalcitrancy, the handing over to the local authority of his name in an envelope marked "Confidential." I do not know whether the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Captain Guest) has ever had much experience of local government authorities in semi-rural districts—of the medical officers of health and the way in which their business is conducted. He will know probably that these gentlemen are very much under the influence of the bodies they serve, and if those bodies are energetic and enthusiastic in the discharge of their duties, they will at once begin to get greater benefits out of this Act than at present appear, and they will demand, first of all, the number of cases which have been submitted to the consideration of the medical officer of health, and it would be only a step further for them to demand that he should be satisfied that proper inspection had been made to avoid contamination by seeing that the home in which the person lives is properly safeguarded in such a way as to prevent him communicating the disease to his neighbour. The police and the local magistrates are being invoked in the matter and the horror of a police prosecution. This would not only act as a terrible penalty which the man's or woman's folly brought it on him or her, but it would ostracise them in the whole of the neighbourhood in which they live, and in very many cases it would entirely damn their chance of maintaining the respect of their neighbours and friends in subsequent years. Any such terrible punishment would be far too great a burden to lay upon the afflicted one who had already been sufficiently punished for his fault.

Question put, and negatived.

NEW CLAUSE— (Defilement of Girls Under Seventeen.)

Sections five and six of the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1885, which relate to the defilement of girls between thirteen and sixteen years of age, shall be read and construed as if the word "seventeen" were substituted for the word "sixteen."— [ Mr. Dickinson. ]

Clause brought up, and read the first time.

10.0 P.M.

:I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."

The proposal contained in this new Clause is one which I moved in Committee as an Amendment to another Clause and I was defeated by a majority of one. The proposal to raise the age of consent has been advocated very widely for many years. The statutory position at present is that under the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1885 there are two Sections which specially deal with the unlawful and carnal knowledge of girls. Section 4 lays it down that any one who unlawfully and carnally knows any girl under the age of thirteen years is guilty of a felony, and can be punished by penal servitude, and it makes no difference whether the person was aware or not aware what the age of the girl was. Section 5 deals with girls who are between the ages of thirteen and sixteen, and that says.:

"Any person who unlawfully and carnally knows or attempts to have unlawful or carnal knowledge of any girl of or above the age of thirteen and under the age of sixteen years shall be guilty of a misdemeanour and liable to imprisonment for two years."

But to that Section there is a proviso that

"It shall be a sufficient defence to any charge under this Section if it shall be made to appear to the Court or jury before whom the charge is brought that the person so charged had reasonable cause to believe that the girl was of or above the age of sixteen years."

Clause 2 of the Bill proposes to abolish that proviso, and so after it is passed a girl below the age of sixteen will be protected under any circumstances. I ask the House to go one step further, and not only say, as the Bill says, that a girl who does not exceed sixteen years of age shall be absolutely protected, whether she consents or no, but that we should raise the age from sixteen to seventeen. When the Act of 1885 was before Parliament, the proposal that the Government then made was that the ages of twelve and fifteen should obtain, but in the course of the passage through Parliament those ages were changed to thirteen and sixteen, as they are at present. At that time an Amendment was moved to raise the age of consent to eighteen. That Amendment was moved by Mr. Sergeant Simon, and supported by the late Mr. James Stuart, whose interest in the welfare of girls and whose work for them is very well known. It also had the support of the late Mr. Gladstone. But it was never put to the House because, owing to some previous decision, it was ruled out of order. So the age of sixteen was adopted. Since that time, as hon. Members are aware, there has been a very powerful and continuous demand on the part of a great many societies interested in the social welfare of girls, and also from almost the whole of the Women Suffrage societies for the raising of the age to eighteen. At the present moment we have had requests from many societies that advantage should be taken of this Bill being before Parliament to raise the age. The age I propose is seventeen, and not eighteen, in the hope that the House may see its way to make this small addition to the age below which a girl shall not be able to consent to an act which will ruin her for life. Those persons who are interested in this subject, and especially those who have made a study of the question of prostitution in all lands, are unanimously of the opinion that it is of the greatest importance to prevent as far as possible the prostitution of girls of tender age. At a very important conference which was held in the years 1899 and 1902 of persons from all the European countries, and I think America, who were practically interested in the subject of prostitution, the first resolution which was passed was, "That the Governments should use their utmost powers to suppress the prostitution of girls under age." That was proposed by Professor Fournier, who was one of the doctors who had made a practical study of this subject in Paris, and who was a leading expert on the subject at that time. He spoke on the question which was submitted to the conference, "By what legal measures can the number of women earning their living by immorality be diminished?" He said: do, I submit that it is much more useful that we should let it be known that seventeen is the lowest age at which any man can have connection with a girl, even with her own consent. That in itself would have its effect upon public opinion and would go very far to protect girls in the future.

There is one other objection raised, and that is that sixteen is an age which is generally taken as being the moment when a child passes from childhood to adolescence, and which is the age fixed for the purposes of the Children Acts and other similar Statutes. I submit that that does not affect this particular question. Even if at sixteen a child is supposed to be sufficiently advanced in education or experience to be responsible for other things, for this particular danger I do not think she is sufficiently experienced. It is almost impossible to think that the great majority of girls of fifteen—because that is what the age really is—are sufficiently advanced to know what the effect may be of a lapse such as being taken advantage of by a man. I think, therefore, that now we have an opportunity of carrying through what I believe would be a very great reform, and one that is undoubtedly demanded, and has been demanded for many years, by the great mass of the women of this country.

:My right hon. Friend has made a very full statement of this case, and I do not propose to traverse the ground at any considerable length. But I should like to inform those Members of the House who were not members of the Committee that though this proposal was only defeated irk Committee by one vote I think that majority would not have been gained if it had not been that the Home Secretary, whose absence from the discussion to-night we all deplore, put very strong pressure on the Committee. Without that strong pressure I think the Committee, if it had been left free, would have arrived at a different conclusion. The Home Secretary conducted the discussions in that Committee with great open-mindedness, with great consideration for the views which were presented, and with a readiness to see new points of view which we all recognise. On this particular point, however, he put his foot down, and in his discretion, told us that he would drop the Bill if this proposal were insisted upon. It was that threat which undoubtedly secured the majority of one by which this proposal was then defeated. I trust that to-night the Lord Advocate will not maintain that position. I think he must have judged from the discussion in the Committee that there was a strong force of public opinion in favour of this proposal, and I hope that he will at least leave it open to the House, if he cannot see his way to agree when this matter is again proposed, to settle the question. I understand he indicates dissent. I regret it very much. I admit that the Bill does make a real step in advance. The cancelling of the provision under which it shall no longer be a sufficient defence to a charge that the person charged had reasonable cause to believe that the girl was above the age of sixteen, I quite admit, is a very great improvement, but cannot the Government see its way in deference to a strong demand to go further forward? Is it really a tenable position for us to take up that though you refuse to allow that a young girl of this age we are discussing is capable of looking after her money and her investments, yet as soon as she arrives at the age of sixteen she is treated as a person with full responsibility, free from any protection which the State has given to her up to that age? As soon as the girl arrives at the age of sixteen, surely not a very mature age and not an age at which you would trust her for any important matters, you shy the state which has hitherto protected her is to withdraw its protection and that she is to be left to the prompting of her own discretion; if that is the position, I cannot believe that this is a tenable attitude for us to take up. The Lord Advocate, may be, has his reasons for refusing the suggestion to-night. I hoped he would not refuse; I cannot believe that his position can be maintained permanently. He may think that it is desirable to go step by step and to see how the Act will work, and when he withdraws the reasonable cause proviso, whether there will be a readiness on the part of juries to convict, but I think that the fact that you do not get as high a proportion of convictions is explained by the flaw in the Act which is now amended. If that flaw is taken away I think he will get this law carried out as well as other laws are enforced. I can only press on him very strongly to leave this matter open. It is a matter which I think the House can very well decide for themselves, and although, of course, we are very much guided by the experience of the Home Office in these matters, and although any arguments he puts before us will no doubt carry great weight, yet in deference to the strength of the case I can only hope he will see his way to meet us.

:I desire to express concurrence with the remarks made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Pancras, and the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken, and I hope very much that the Government may see their way to make some alteration in the position as shown in the Bill. I am not certain that the hon. Member who has just spoken was quite right as to the attitude of the Home Secretary in the Committee. As I recollect his attitude, it was that he put us into this dilemma—either we raise the age and do not abolish the proviso at all, or we abolish the proviso and do not raise the age at all, and I think that I ventured to interrupt the Home Secretary and ask him whether he could not, while abolishing the proviso up to sixteen, retain it as regards the increased period. Personally, I should be quite glad to increase not only for the attainment of seventeen, but of eighteen, retaining the proviso. I hope very much that every hon. Member clearly understands that when you are talking about these ages, as the law exists at the present time it is only the girl of fifteen who is protected. The moment she becomes sixteen then there is no protection, and when you were talking about sixteen you mean the girl is under sixteen, and in this new Clause we are not protecting the girl of seventeen years of age, but only the girl of sixteen, until she becomes seventeen. It is very important to realise that, because, at any rate in this House, there seems to be a great deal of misunderstanding, the idea being that the girl of sixteen is protected, and that this proposal is really to protect the girl of seventeen. Everybody can judge for himself, as to the capacity of a girl of that age to make up her mind or to understand, let alone make up her mind, the effect on her whole future life, and not only the effect on her future life, but on that of her children and her descendants as well, of any false step which she may take. I regard this as a war question. It is a matter which was always urgent, but it is more urgent now than ever that we should make sure of reasonable measures to secure a purging of this terrible evil. I, for one, heartily support the right hon. Gentleman's Clause.

:I sincerely hope that the right hon. Gentleman will yet see his way to accept this Clause. This Clause really does meet and meet fully the objection taken when this question was discussed in Committee. I venture to suggest that if this Clause in its present form had been put before the Committee and voted upon it would have been carried, and would have been accepted as a fair compromise of the question which was there debated. But I urge it on other grounds. The whole question has been one of controversy now for a very considerable period. By the Bill which was introduced in the House of Lords in 1914 the age of eighteen was inserted, as the age of consent, and that age received very wide support in the House of Lords, although that Bill was withdrawn in order that it might be sent before a Select Committee, but this was not done. I will also remind the House that a previous Committee of the House of Lords in 1882 had recommended strongly the age of eighteen as the age of consent. There was a considerable struggle to obtain even the age of sixteen in the Act of 1885 on the very ground suggested in Committee as against the raising of the age to eighteen, namely, the possibility of blackmail. That argument was urged again and again for a considerable period, and no progress was made. I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree, at least so far as we are aware, that after the age was fixed at sixteen, there has been no real evidence that the argument with regard to blackmail could lave been supported by what has taken place, though it may be that it has occurred in certain cases. I sincerely hope he will adopt the view expressed by the Mover of this Clause, that even on the question of blackmail we ought not to be too sympathetic with those who are being considered from that point of view. It is perfectly true that there might be certain cases in which a certain amount of sympathy might obtain, but they are very few. I submit that the right hon. Gentleman ought to weigh that seriously in considering this Amendment. May I suggest to him, further, that, so far as the age of eighteen is concerned, you are dealing with cases of minors. It is familiar to all Members of the House that we do not give a woman full control of her property until she has reached the age of majority, and we in Scotland have a very stringent provision with regard to minors to nullify all the deeds which may have been entered into during minority. Surely we are not to say that a woman cannot deal with her property until she is fully of age and at the same time suggest that eighteen is the age at which she might fully consent to unlawful sexual relations! In the same way minors are protected from moneylenders. We want to protect girls from the temptations to which so many are exposed, especially girls of the working classes. I think that the right hon. Gentleman might also consider the fact that even in the Act of 1885 the age of eighteen is mentioned, in Section 70, which provides that girls may not be taken or abducted for the purpose of having carnal knowledge, and that protection was sought to be given up to that age. This Clause only asks for the age of seventeen. I am quite sure that the right hon. Gentleman will find that, if he resists this Clause, there is an enormous volume of opinion not only outside the House, but in the House, which will become vocal before the end of the Debate, and I hope he will see way at an early stage to give some encouragement to this proposal.

:This proposal is actually the most important that has come before the House at this stage of the Bill, and I could have wished to see a fuller attendance for its discussion. Unquestionably outside this House there is very great interest in this particular proposal, and I for my part feel convinced that if Parliament fails to enact this Clause proposed by my right hon. Friend, it will be falling behind the general public opinion of the country. This is a matter in which there has been in recent years a gradual but distinct advance in public opinion. It is essentially one of those matters on which public opinion moves as civilisation gradually progresses. I am happy to see sitting on the Front Bench the Minister of Education who, in his most interesting and impressive speech delivered the other day, pointed out how in many directions it was necessary to extend the age during which the State requires its youth to devote themselves to education. The Children Act was another instance of how in many directions society as a whole desires to give protection to a higher age than in previous times to its young members. The age of sixteen is far too low to fix as a maximum age for this purpose. Let the House remember, as was pointed out by the hon. member for South Lanark (Mr. Watson), that when we speak of raising the age to seventeen, and when we visualise a girl of seventeen, that we are not really dealing with girls of seventeen, but with girls under seventeen. All that is proposed by my right hon. Friend's Clause is not to pro-girls who are under seventeen—that is tent girls who are seventeen years old, but to say, sixteen years old. The present law which fixes the age of consent at sixteen only protects girls of fifteen years old. Can it really be defended that in a matter of this sort a girl who is only just sixteen should have no protection at all from the State in a matter which is absolutely vital to her whole future Welfare?

The objections that have been raised to raising the age to include girls of sixteen who are not now included are three. In the first place, it is said you will be going too far, and when you bring cases into Court juries will find some excuse for acquitting the person charged, although he really is clearly guilty. I am not a criminal lawyer, and it is very difficult for anyone who is not engaged in constant practice at the Criminal Bar to know how much substance there is in that, but if that is the case that public opinion at large is educable on this matter, and if it is the case that the general body of sensible persons would be prepared to accept the claim to protect all girls of sixteen years and not seventeen I cannot but believe that in course of time as the matter is more fully justified and public opinion becomes more clearly pronounced even than now juries would be found readily to accept the intentions of the legislature and would not acquit persons who were clearly guilty of carnal knowledge if the girls were only sixteen. At all events it seems to me well worth trying and the worst that could happen is that in a certain, I believe only a very small, minority of cases convictions that ought to be obtained would not be secured, but I cannot but believe that in the vast majority of cases the convictions would be obtained.

The second argument that has been advanced is that if you raise the age of consent to seventeen, to include girls of sixteen, there will be greater opportunities for blackmail. When I was at the Home Office, and considering this matter, I made careful inquiries on this point, and I did not find, so far as I could gather, that expert opinion really attached much importance to that consideration. The cases of blackmail that have been known—of course, we do not know the majority of cases of blackmail of men—are exceedingly few. If there were many secret cases, at all events a certain proportion would come to light—certainly more than have come to light. In any case, I agree with what has been said by other hon. Members, and I do not know why we should give all our sympathy to men who have carnal knowledge of girls of only sixteen, even if they are blackmailed, and that we should for that reason say that girls who ought to be properly protected by the law ought not to have the protection of Parliament because in a certain number of cases men who have got themselves into equivocal positions might be inconvenienced. Further, I would draw the attention of the House to this point, which is somewhat important in this connection. If we pass Clause 3, perhaps in some modified form, but, at all events, dealing with the young prostitute who is avowedly a prostitute, it will to some extent dispose of this contention of blackmail. The case proposed is this: It is said that a young man, perhaps a young university man, gets the acquaintance of some girl who is a prostitute in London, and, having been with her, he is then, by her or by her associates blackmailed and told that she being in fact below the age fixed by Parliament as the age of consent, unless he pays up considerable sums of money, he will be prosecuted and is liable to a considerable term of imprisonment; and it is said that there are women of a degraded character who will lend themselves to this and, young as they are and having engaged in a professional career of vice, would add to that this crime of blackmail. If there is a provision that the young prostitute below the age of eighteen, as is suggested in the Bill, can herself, if she is proved to be a prostitute, be committed to a home for a period possibly of two or three years, I think that very few of them would be disposed to attempt the game which I have just described. They would find that it might recoil upon their own heads and that the attempt would not be worth the making.

The third objection that is raised, and that was raised in Committee, to this proposal is this: It is said that hitherto, if a girl who is in fact below the age of consent, but who is a well-developed, well-grown girl and looks above the age of consent, has had carnal knowledge of some man, and he is charged with the offence, he can plead in his defence that from her appearance or from other circumstances, or for what he had been told, he had reasonable cause to believe she was above sixteen, that being the age now fixed in the Act The Bill proposes to abolish that, and the Home Secretary said in committee, "You cannot do both these things. You cannot both raise the age of the girl and at the same time abolish the proviso with regard to reasonable cause of belief, because it would be too hard on a man, if the girl is in fact well over sixteen, perhaps nearly seventeen, and she may look nearly nineteen, and the man may have been told she is nearly nineteen, to say to him that he shall not have the chance of pleading that he had reasonable cause to believe she was above the age fixed in the Act." And he strongly resisted the provision on that ground, and the strength of his resistance was really the reason why the Committee, by a majority of only one, rejected the Clause. It was suggested in Committee by my hon. Friend the Member for South Lanark, and also by myself, that that objection could be met in this way—and it is the way that is proposed by the mover of the two Clauses which have been put before the House. We said, "Perhaps there is some force in this, and it is going too far at one stage"; and we suggested that the law should be left as the Bill proposes, with regard to reasonable cause for belief. The Bill proposes, and the Home Secretary proposes, that that provision should be abolished up to the age of sixteen, and I think everybody agrees with him; nobody demurs to it—

:Very few Members do at all events, and I do not think it was challenged in Committee. To leave the Bill as it stands as regards reasonable cause for belief up to the age of sixteen, if you say it is too much to raise the age to seventeen and abolish the provision right up to that age. We wish to raise the age to seventeen if it can clearly be proved that the girl was sixteen, and that the man had no reasonable cause to believe that she was above the age of seventeen. If he knew definitely that she was a girl of the age of sixteen, and if it can be proved, either on the evidence of a relative or a lodger in the house that he had definite reason to know or believe that the girl was sixteen, and no more, then he ought to be convicted. If, however, he can prove that he had reasonable cause to believe that she was above seventeen, that a relative or other person informed him that she was seventeen, and she looked a girl very much older, let him plead that, and in the case of a girl above sixteen and of the age of seventeen, that that shall be a valid defence. If a girl is in fact below sixteen he must be convicted whether or not he had reasonable cause to believe, but if she is above sixteen and below seventeen then let him escape conviction if he had reasonable cause to believe that she was above seventeen. That is the compromise suggested by the Home Secretary. He did not discuss, or argue it, or deal with it in Committee; he merely objected to the abolition of the proviso, "had reasonable cause to believe," and to raise the age to seventeen. I would suggest that the House should adopt that course, and should insist that the age should be raised to seventeen. If objection is then taken to abolishing the "had reasonable cause to believe" proviso, let it stand as in the Bill, and apply only to girls of the age of sixteen.

:I am well aware, both from experience of the Committee upstairs and from the rather crowded experience of a few days recently, that there exists a very ardent and a very strong body of opinion in favour of raising the age, I rather think, not merely to seventeen step by step, but, if it be possible, persaltum higher and higher. I know there is a very strong and very convinced body of opinion to that effect, and I know also from some experience, more marked even than in the Committee upstairs, in the course of my experience in the last few days, that there is another body of opinion equally strong and equally convinced that sixteen is quite old enough for the purposes of Sections 5 and 6 of the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1885. More than that, it is a body of opinion which took very good care that I should know that those concerned intended to resist to the last the proposal which the Bill contained as it came up from Committee—namely, that to take away the defence of probable grounds for belief even in regard to the age of sixteen. The fact is that this question-of the exact age is the battle-ground between two very firmly convinced and very ardent bodies of opinion, and the responsibility for the choice ultimately has to be discharged by whoever is in charge of this Bill. I want the House just to consider for a moment exactly what it is that the Bill proposes to do, and what the effect of this change will be.

The Bill proposes to leave the age of sixteen, which is the age at which, or below which, an offence is committed, if carnal knowledge is had of a girl under the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1885, and which is the age below which, again, an offence occurs if a householder or an occupier of premises permits carnal knowledge of a girl on the premises. But, under the Act of 1885, it is a good defence for the person charged to say that he had reasonable grounds for believing that the girl was not under sixteen, but over sixteen. The age and the provisions of the Criminal Law Amendment Act the Bill proposes to leave alone, but the Bill proposes to take away altogether that defence. If the Bill were to become law as it came out of the Committee, any man who meddles with a girl—a girl as distinct from a, woman—will take absolutely upon his shoulders the peril of her being under sixteen in point of fact. If he does so, he falls under the lash of the law, and it will be in vain for him to try to get out by saying, "I had reasonable grounds for thinking that, in point of fact, she was over sixteen." If he chooses to have such carnal knowledge of a girl, he will do so at his peril. That is what the Bill proposes to do, and it proposes to do that, leaving the age of sixteen unaffected. What is proposed to be done now by this new Clause would be to alter the age to seventeen—twelve months difference. It would be to abolish the defence of "probable cause of believe" that the girl was over sixteen if, in fact, she was, but it would leave the defence available for the extra twelve months. It would leave the defence of "probable cause to believe" that she was over seventeen if, in fact, she was above sixteen. Is that really worth doing? If you say to a young man who may be tempted to transgress in this way with very young persons, "If that young woman turns out to be below sixteen you are under the lash of the Criminal Law Amendment Act," I think, and we think, that is the most powerful deterrent to prevent young men meddling with young women who may be below sixteen, and that it covers most, if not all, of your cases of seventeen. And, on the other hand, we say that to open the defence of "probable cause to believe," when it turns out that in fact the girl is above sixteen, though below seventeen, but to have it cut off when, in fact, she is below sixteen, is obviously very illogical, and, we think so unreasonable and affords such temptation to offer evidence of belief in the one case, although it would be of no use in the other, that we do not think it is a good thing to introduce into the law an element so uncertain and so confused as that.

I want to point out something more. Of course, it is necessary in connection with all such legislation as this to find some boundary mark of age which will distinguish roughly the girl from the young woman. I know that you may criticise any age you like to select as being rather too old or too young, and it is a question of making the best choice. It is no use the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cleveland (Mr. Samuel) saying that in 1885, the date of the Criminal Law Amendment Act, is thirty-two years ago, and that the time has now come for a change for this reason, that a large number of Clauses, roughly from twelve to twenty-four, of his own legislative achievement, the Children Act of 1908 is only eight years old, and sixteen i3 the boundary mark of age between the girl and the young woman all through that Act. I am well aware that by no manner of means does it follow that we ought to take a boundary mark of age between a girl and a young woman from one Act and say that it necessarily should apply to the different provisions of another Act, but when I look at the Sections of the Children Act, I find that they deal with abuses and offences, very many of them sexual. I also find in a very important Act, which nobody proposes to amend for a very large sphere of offences in the nature of abuse, and in dealing with abuse and actual sexual misconduct or mishandling of young persons in a very important Statute covering a very large area of ground, the boundary mark of sixteen was put in force only eight years ago, and is now in force to-day, and after the passing of this Bill is to remain in force. It strikes me as a very strong consideration that it would be a very doubtful expedient, and it would be very inexpedient to make a change in the boundary mark of age between the girl and the young woman in relation to Sections 5 and 6 of the Criminal Law Amendment Act relating to carnal knowledge and permitting carnal knowledge on premises within your control to raise that to seventeen and to say that with regard to other things under the Children Act, such as promoting or encouraging prostitution or seduction or the thousand and one other things that are concerned with the Children Act with girls it should be left at the age of sixteen. If we are going to meddle with what I admit must be a very rough boundary-mark between the girl and the young woman, let us o it on rather a broader survey than to select Clauses 5 and 6 of the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1885, and change it by one year, coupled with this most illogical, and, in my opinion, a most unworkable and unjust proposal, that there is to be no defence if the girl is sixteen, but if she is seventeen then this defence becomes available.

I am powerfully influenced by some other reasons, of which blackmail is not the strongest, but of which the difficulty of obtaining convictions is the most formidable. I do not pretend to any special experience of this Clause, but I do know that it is by no means easy to get convictions for the age of sixteen, and it is not easy just because the age is as high as sixteen. There is no difficulty in getting convictions in cases of little girls of twelve or thirteen who have been abused, but when you jump over from that to about the age of sixteen I can assure the House that it is very difficult to get a conviction, and the difficulty arises because juries think they know, and I think they are right in thinking that they know, that there are a great many girls of sixteen who are quite as bad or worse than many girls of seventeen or eighteen. The right hon. Gentleman is quite right in saying that arguments will apply lower than sixteen. It will apply as low as fifteen, but that adds weight to what I have said.

:The hon. Gentleman said that juries say that so many girls of sixteen are as bad as older girls. Girls of sixteen are not now within the law; it is only girls of fifteen who are protected.

:We are going back to the old question of the day in front or the day behind. It is difficult, as things are, to secure convictions in the case of girls up to sixteen, because juries think they know, and they are right in thinking that they know, that there are a great many girls under the age of sixteen who in this matter are thoroughly hardened in experience and as precocious—

:It is so, and the more you raise the age the greater will the difficulty become. I do not think that we ought to put the administration of the law into the position of having to undertake that special difficulty with regard to Clauses 5 and 6 of the Criminal Law Amendment Act and leave it where it is with regard to all these offences under Section 12 and the following Sections in the Children Act, where sixteen is to remain the age. Under Section 16 of the Children Act it is an offence to allow children, girls, to be in brothels, under Section 17 there is a punishment for a person causing, encouraging, or favouring seduction or prostitution of young girls, under Section 18 there is power to bind over persons having custody of young girls to exercise proper care, and so on, and the age is always sixteen. Accordingly, one has to make up one's mind, and it seems to me on the whole that I select the best and wisest course when I make up my mind to adhere to the Bill as it came through Committee, and to stick to sixteen. I am not trying to lay down any general principle that it may not be expedient some day to consider, in relation to the problems of youth and morals, the age of sixteen all round, but I think it is wisest and best for us to stick to the age of the Criminal Law Amendment Act and of the Children Act of 1908, but on the' other hand to remove once and for all the defence of "probable cause to believe" that the girl was under sixteen. It is always an ungrateful and unpleasant thing to have to refuse appeals, and I would not have refused this one if I could have helped it, but I have to make my decision, and we cannot take the responsibility of putting the age of seventeen into this Bill. We must therefore ask the House, on the grounds that I put forward, I am sure it will be admitted without heat or hostility, to allow us to have the Bill in this respect as it came out of Committee.

:Most of those who are present at this Debate will very much regret what the Lord Advocate has felt it his duty to say, although I am sure we all recognise the manner in which he has put forward the considerations he has urged upon us. When we get out of the technical discussion and consider what it is we are discussing, and those of us who are fathers and who have daughters think what is the age of this human being about which we are disputing, I cannot help thinking that we shall not really be representing the solid opinion of the country if we say that when a child, a girl, has reached her sixteenth birthday, from that moment let the blame fall upon her. I do not believe that that really is the general tendency of opinion in this country at this time. Since the hon. and learned Gentleman does not really base his case upon the old argument about blackmail—an argument very difficult to weigh, even if it be an argument of some weight and substance, nevertheless not an argument that ought to tip the scale—since he does not do that, I submit to the House that we still ought to have a further consideration of this matter at the hands of the Government. After all, in this very Bill the Government have not treated the ages hitherto fixed as very sacrosanct. It used to be the law, and it is the law at this moment, that a prosecution for an indecent assault upon a little girl would not fail, supposing that the child was under thirteen, though a prosecution for carnal knowledge was limited in the way we understand by reference to the age of sixteen. That has always been the difference between those two things. This very Bill, with the consent of the Government, raises the age for the purposes of indecent assault from thirteen to sixteen. Whereas we have always had a criminal law in which regard was had to a lower age for indecent assault than for the case of protection against carnal knowledge, if things are left as they are the two ages are going to be left the same.

Take another illustration. In Clause 3 the Government have thought it right to propose a special provision for the detention of girls under eighteen. It is not because we have found by experience or that there exists in nature some line which is drawn by a girl's sixteenth birthday above which you cannot properly go. There is this further consideration. I find it very difficult indeed to believe that you are necessarily going to destroy the practical effect of this law by raising this age by another year. This offence is not triable by Quarter Sessions; therefore the only experience that can guide us is the experience of assizes. My own experience in such things is not very great or very recent, but I do not think it is true to say that this branch of the law is a dead letter because you cannot get convictions. Even if there were cases where a conviction ought to follow and it does not, it is right to set up this, under modern condi- tions, as the standard and as the deterrent that ought to operate on the mind of a man. It is no answer to say that you may now and again come across a case in which a jury will none the less give the accused person something rather more than the benefit of the doubt as to his knowledge of what the age of the child was.

It being Eleven of the Clock, the Debate stood adjourned.

Debate to be resumed upon Friday next.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Military Service

Conscientious Objectors (Princetown)

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

11.0 P.M.

:I rise once more to call attention to the privileged position of the so-called conscientious objectors at Princetown. The other night we were told that 294 of these men were given Easter leave, and that 166 had their fares paid, some as far as Scotland, costing the country in each case not less than £5. No wonder there was an outcry against this privileged position of men who have been sentenced by court-martial to long terms of imprisonment, and have only been released in order that they might be engaged on some work of national importance, and not to be given leave and treated as though they had not done any harm at all. The other night the Under-Secretary for the Home Department informed the House that in view of the suspension of leave of soldiers on home service, the Committee of Employment of Conscientious Objectors had decided to suspend the leave of conscientious objectors employed under them save in exceptional cases. This statement left upon us the impression that some new departure had taken place, some great concession had been made. The facts are that the order was given on 6th December, 1916, to suspend the leave of the soldiers in the Home forces, and therefore these men have leave given them for, at any rate, four months after it was taken away from the men of the Home force. The hon. Gentleman did not inform the House of that, and he gave us an entirely false impression. I must ask him what is the connection between these so-called conscientious objectors and men who are fighting for the country? In the one case you have men doing their duty, and in the other case you have men who have not done their duty, and who are released from prison under what I would call a ticket-of-leave. This decision of the Under-Secretary has not satisfied anyone. It does not satisfy the public. These men are not subject to military control. They are subject to civil control.

I will tell the House the kind of leniency that is shown to these men under the Regulations as they stand to-day—at any rate so far as we know. Rule 23 runs thus: That is a very wide rule. It expressly deals with the making of speeches, and certainly covers no man's offence. When I asked the hon. Gentleman why he allowed Norman to go to this meeting, he said it was a private meeting. The hon. Member knows or should have known that it was not a private meeting. The Press. were allowed to go to the meeting, and any member of the public could go in the gallery on paying 6s. I must press the hon. Gentleman to. say that this man Norman has committed an offence against the rule laid down by the Committee on the Employment of Conscientious Objectors and that he must be punished.

I pass now to what these so-called conscientious objectors call "sowing the seed." They wander about Princetown and the neighbourhood of Dartmoor, talking to young people. They fix upon young people, most of whom have fathers or brothers or uncles who are fighting at the front. They say to these young people, "We have no opinion of your King," and. they also tell them, "You would be much better under a republic." They go on to say, "Look at us; what will be our position when the revolution comes?" I have very good authority for saying that these words have been said by these so-called conscientious objectors to children in the neighbourhood of Princetown. These men congregate at the street corners, and wait for their opportunity when people are coming out of the shops. One evening copies of the "No-Conscription Fellowship Journal" were placed in the Princetown railway carriages. Various scurrilous remarks are written about the neighbourhood. Not long since a leaflet which was described by the "Western Morning News" as "a loathsome leaflet" was circulated. Knowing the authority of the "Western Morning News" in the West of England, I alluded to this matter recently. The leaflet spoke against the King, against the Government, and against military service. The Government did nothing. They allow these men to go on doing exactly as they like. These men were taken to church in the neighbourhood, and when the National Anthem was sung they got up and went out. An old resident of Plymouth tells me that in a local chapel before these men arrived the National Anthem was sung, but since they have been in the neighbourhood and have frequented the chapel the National Anthem is no longer sung and prayers for our soldiers and sailors at the front are omitted. The hon. Member says he has received a letter from the pastor of the chapel which puts a somewhat different complexion on the case, but it does not go far enough. It does not meet my point, namely, that the prayers for soldiers and sailors were omitted and that not on every occasion was the National Anthem sung. Some of these men are actually allowed to teach in the chapel school. I consider it to be an outrage that these men should be allowed to teach their views to children and it is a matter which the Government ought to take up. They must not allow these so-called conscientious objectors to teach in schools, whether in chapel schools, or church schools, or any schools whatsoever. A word or two about the liberty of these people. The warders' boys' cricket ground is commandeered. Nothing is said to them about it. Why should they have a ground at all to play on? Soldiers at the front have no ground, so why should they? They go about in batches and annoy people, and take an especial interest in annoying everyone they come across. What is their work? They work from 8 until 5.30, and have an hour for their dinner-that is to say, they get four hours in which to roam about the country every evening and to spread these pernicious doctrines. Of course, they have Saturday afternoons and Sundays thrown in. Dartmoor is a very favourite resort for a large number of people in that part of the country and in the summer it provides great benefit for a large number of persons from the cities and towns in the West of England. They go there with their families and get rest. This year the mothers will take their children there while their fathers and brothers are fighting at the front. Are these men to be allowed to accost them and to press on their children these pernicious doctrines I have mentioned to-night? I say that if this goes on the Government are acting in a manner entirely foreign to the opinion of this country. If these men are late, what happens? They are only fined a penny, a penny for every half-hour they do not work. So, for sixpence they can have three hours less work. Three hours for sixpence! Does the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Brace) deny it? He cannot deny it, because it is in the rules, and he knows it as well as I do.

There must be greater discipline and a larger curtailment of the liberty of these conscientious objectors. Now, about food. We know there is a shortage of food in this country. These men buy what they like and spend nearly all their money in buying extras. They eat up nearly all the food in Princetown and the neighbouring towns. They clear the shops and take all the sweets that people usually buy for their children. Added to this, they have a collection of food sent to them in parcels, and, would the House believe it, it takes four men to drag a hand-barrow every day with the postal deliveries? Fancy four men to drag a hand-barrow so that they may read what is going on all over the world in their own and other people's families! It is a scandal. Probably in no place in the country are the Food Controller's appeals so openly disregarded as in Princetown by these men. We heard a great deal of the Unseen Hand when the late Government were in office. There seem to be a great number of Unseen Hands, I will not say in the present administration, but very near it, and if the present Government are not willing to champion the cause of these cowards and shirkers, at any rate, they do their best to lighten the burden that they have brought upon themselves. Let us contrast the position between these men and the men in the trenches. I will not draw a comparison myself, but let hon. Members do it for themselves. Does the House suppose that there is any man in the trenches who would not be very glad to sleep in a barn? What happened the other day? In Norfolk some conscientious objectors were asked to sleep in a barn while other arrangements were being made. They said, "No, we will not sleep in a barn." The hon. Gentleman said, "The agent says there is a draught. It is very awkward, and they must not sleep in the barn." At the expense of the country they took lodgings for these men in the neighbourhood. They foisted them upon the people in the neighbourhood, and allowed them to speak to the wives of the men who had gone to the front and to the children in the houses, because the Government were too tender, and were afraid that they would get in a draught if they slept in a barn.

I may suggest a few reforms. There must be more discipline, more control over these Committees, and there must be confinement within the grounds or precincts of the prison. No food must be sold outside to them. Talking to children must be forbidden. There must be no teaching in the Sunday schools. All parcels must be opened. Gifts of food must be forbidden. Letters must be censored. The local post office must not take letters addressed to so-called conscientious objectors. No letters must be written to newspapers. Letters sent out from the prison must be read by a censor, and not a censor elected by themselves. Whatever arrangements are made with regard to leave in the Army and Navy must have nothing whatever to do with the so-called conscientious objectors, who must not be given any leave at all unless it be by way of reward for conscientious work. The country will not stand it. It will not stand this preferential treatment to so-called conscientious objectors—men who will not fight and who will not work. The sooner the Government understands this the better, or they will not be sitting there very long. It was only the other day that the "Daily Mail" had a photograph of the so-called conscientious objectors. Look at the countenances of these men, their grinning faces, looking like apes! See what manner of men they are. Yet these miserable specimens of humanity are to be pampered and encouraged, as they are being encouraged, no doubt to desseminate freely their unpatriotic and disloyal opinions, while—and I hope the House will remember this—men who have been wounded twice or thrice, who have served in the Army, and whose pensions are due, are now being called up to serve in the Army once more, and fight at the front.

:I only rise to support the hon. Member for Devonport, and to say to the Government that if these men who are called conscientious objectors, who are really ex-prisoners, are allowed to roam about the moor they must be in charge of an escort, and prevented from speaking to people who frequent the moor. I am told that one of these men, who is an ex-prize fighter, has already knocked down two or three men, and the women and children of Devon are afraid to go about the moor for fear of meeting these so-called conscientious objectors.

:If the hon. Member for Devon-port had been quite correct in his facts the House would not be at all surprised at the impassioned oration to which we have listened. I do not defend the con- scientious objectors to whose views I am, diametrically opposed, and in accepting the responsibility as chairman of the Committee to carry out this work I accepted a responsibility very distasteful to me, and it has been one of the most critical problems which I have ever been called on to face since I entered public life. The House will remember that this Committee is the result of a promise given by the Prime Minister on 29th June, 1916. There was a large number of men who had gone into the Army, and they became a nuisance not only to themselves but to the soldiers and officers to such a degree that the Government was called upon to evolve some kind of scheme that would give the Army the opportunity of getting on with the work of the War without having these people upon their flanks, everlastingly proving a source of disturbance, difficulty and disorganisation to the whole Army all over the country. These men were court-martialled and were sent to civil prisons. This Committee were called upon to find ways and means for giving these men employment under civil control. While these men are not soldiers they are not prisoners, and under the terms of the reference under which my Committee act we would have no power—

:That is a matter for the Government and not for me. If the House wants stricter measures they must settle with the Government.

:Let the House settle with the Government as to stricter measures. Under the terms of the reference—it is a very limited reference—therefore neither myself nor my Committee can do exactly what we would like.

:Some of their sentences have expired, but I would like the House to be just to these conscientious objectors. There are a substantial number now here, I regret to say, for whom I should be very sorry to offer any defence; but there are a number who are very sincere conscientious objectors. While I believe them to be entirely misled, I am bound to say that from their point of view they are as sincere as any men I have ever met. While the original tribunal may have refused to give them exemption, the Central Tribunal, sitting under the chairmanship of the Marquess of Salisbury, held that they were men who were entitled to be treated as conscientious objectors.

:They did not in any way whatever guarantee the genuineness of these men.

:That places me really in a somewhat difficult position as Chairman of the Committee. There is the broad fact that these men were conscientious objectors.

:The position with regard to the Central Tribunal was that they put to the conscientious objectors a series of questions which were answered, and if they were answered in a particular way we passed them out for civil service, but without in any way guaranteeing that they were genuine conscientious objectors.

:Hon. Members will see the difficulties of the problem which faced both my Committee and the Central Tribunal. The reference to the Committee was a limited one, and the fixed distinction that for the purposes of the Committee, of which I am Chairman, we had to assume was that these men were conscientious objectors, and, if they had not been, they would not have been sent to us at all. A certain number of these men are thoroughly religious persons. First of all, we are asked whether these men ought to have the right to teach in the Sunday schools. It is no use to tell the Committee or myself that there ought to be some regulation to prevent their having such positions. We have no power whatsoever. Of course, in criticising the work of the Committee, it must be remembered that the reference to them is very limited, and it is no use to ask us to do something for which we have no power.

:Some of these men are teachers in Sunday schools, but if they are it is a matter for the officials of the particular churches in which these men enjoy the privilege of teaching the children. [AN Host. MEMBER: Why should they enjoy it?] As to whether they ought to have the power to go outside prison walls, these men, while they are not soldiers, are not prisoners. In the arrangements which we have made as to the neighbourhood, we think that we have gone a long way to meet this difficulty.

:The hon. Member knows, because I made a statement in reply to a question put by him. If he does not know the answers to questions which he himself has put, I must really ask him to re-read them, and he will see that this has been done quite recently. The leave has been suspended, and I would have the House believe, whatever imperfections my Committee may have, that we would not wilfully mislead the House of Commons upon a matter of this kind. When the soldiers were not allowed to go home at Christmas, we were under the impression that was a temporary operation taken by the Army because of some congestion on the railways. It is only within recent days that we learned that that was much more of a permanent than a temporary character. Upon that we founded ourselves as a Committee in coming to the conclusion that leave for the conscientious objectors must be suspended. Censorship of letters would call for the employment of a large staff, and we think sufficient money is being spent by the nation on these conscientious objectors, without spending additional money; but let me say, if the Home Office thought for one moment that either correspondence in or out of Dart-moor was for a moment a danger to this nation in these days of stress and trial, let the cost be what it may we should actually censor the letters. But it is because we do not think it is necessary, I would ask the House not to place the additional expense upon the nation of censoring the letters of those people. [An HON. MEMBER: "Soldiers get their letters censored: "and another HON. MEMBER: "So do sailors."] There may be very good reasons for that, but we do not see any reason. I will, however, again go into this matter and see if it is necessary to do this, and if it is it shall be done. Mr. C. H. Norman, when ho had his leave, had it under the regulations made. He had his leave. We were not aware, when he went on leave, that he was going to the I.L.P. Conference. I looked most carefully into this matter, and I do not think it is a violation of the regulation literally, but it is a violation of the spirit of the regulation. I am bound to say that what stands out particularly in my mind is that any of these men who have taken their stand upon the highest standard that men can take—that is, their conscience—should be guilty of any breach of this character, and I am not here to offer any defence for any such breach. If the suspension of leave will not solve this problem, we shall most assuredly tighten up the regulations.

It being half-past Eleven of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th February.