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Commons Chamber

Volume 93: debated on Tuesday 1 May 1917

House of Commons

Tuesday, May 1, 1917

Private Business

Provisional Order Bills (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:

Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders Bill.

Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time To-morrow.

Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Tramways Bill [Lords],

Haslemere and District Gas Bill [Lords],

Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

British Museum

Return presented relative thereto [ordered 15th March; Mr. Herbert Fisher] ; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 74.]

National Health Insurance Commission (Scotland)

Copy presented of Order, dated 12th April 1917, made by the National Health Insurance Joint Committee acting jointly with the Scottish Insurance Commissioners, entitled the National Health Insurance (Temporary Employment in Agriculture) Order (Scotland), 1917 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Government of Ireland

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the re- fusal of the American Government to enter into an alliance with this country arises from the refusal of this country to put in practice in Ireland its professions with reference to small nationalities?

asked the Prime Minister whether he is yet in a position to inform the House when it is proposed to make a statement on the result of the Government's efforts to effect an Irish settlement?

I am sorry I must again make a claim on the indulgence of the House in this matter. Owing to circumstances which could not be foreseen, the Prime Minister is obliged to go to the Continent again this week, and therefore it is impossible for him to make a statement, but I hope before the end of the week to name the date next week on which the statement will be made.

Shipping Losses (Reprisals)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Government of the United States of America has yet expressed its concurrence with the present British policy of reprisals?

The answer is in the negative. There has been no consultation with the United States Government in the matter.

Military Service

Conscientious Objectors

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he has received a letter, dated 27th March, from the hon. Member for the Bridgeton Division of Glasgow, inquiring whether the proper procedure had been adopted with regard to certain conscientious objectors arrested in Glasgow of whom the civil authorities at Barlinnie Prison had refused to accept custody, and who had thereafter been sent to Perth Prison; whether any opportunity had been given to these prisoners of engaging in work of public importance under the Committee on the Employment of Conscientious Objectors; and whether he is now in a position to answer these questions?

My inquiries into these cases are not yet completed, but I have hastened them, and I hope shortly to be in a position to give my hon. Friend a full answer.

It is more than a month ago since I raised this case. Is it the fact that the War Office officials have delayed giving information to the hon. Gentleman until these men have finished their sentence in Perth Prison? Are they back now with their regiment, and will they be tried by court-martial?

I cannot answer offhand. I will give my hon. Friend a full answer as soon as possible.

Medical Boards

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the importance to the men concerned from the point of view of health and to the State from the point of view of the ultimate cost in pensions, he will lay upon the Table of the House a copy of the fresh instructions issued to medical boards applicable to the men who may be recalled under the Review of Exceptions Act?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether men certified by medical boards to be suffering from valvular disease of the heart are passed for service in medical categories B1 and C1; whether this is in accordance with War Office instructions; and whether there are any instructions dealing with the matter?

As I informed my hon. Friend last Wednesday, no instructions have been issued with regard to the classification of such cases. The matter depends upon the judgment of the medical examiners.

Is it the case that men who are suffering from valvular disease of the heart may be passed for military service in category B1?

I have written to my hon. Friend a letter about a similar case where a man with valvular disease of the heart was placed in C1.

Is it not the case that a man suffering from valvular disease of the heart may be passed by the medical board for military service in category B1?

My hon. Friend will see the instructions, which I have promised the hon. Member for East Edinburgh to place in the Library to-morrow.

Can the hon. Gentleman answer the question whether a man suffering from valvular disease of the heart may be passed by the medical board into B1?

7th Highland Light Infantry

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War, with regard to a number of men of the 7th Highland Light Infantry (the Bridgeton battalion), in medical category C2, who have now been transferred to Class W(T), Territorial Force Reserve, and have had their pay and their wives' separation allowances stopped, whether these men on being transferred to the Reserve were supplied with railway passes to return to Glasgow, where work of national importance awaited them?

I am sorry that I am not yet in a position to answer my hon. Friend's question. The facts of the case are still being investigated by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Munitions, as he informed my hon. Friend yesterday.

Is it the Ministry of Munitions who make the investigations, and is it the War Office who are responsible for the refusal of railway passes to men on being discharged into the Reserve?

Is it the Ministry of Munitions or is it the War Office who are investigating the failure of the War Office to give railway passes to men on their discharge?

Discharge Certificates

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War, in regard to an attested man who was rejected after 13th July, 1916, as unfit for any form of military service but who was refused a certificate of discharge at that time and did not receive a certificate of discharge for several months, which will be regarded as the date of his discharge for the purpose of the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act, the date of his rejection or the date when a certificate of discharge was issued to him?

If my hon. Friend would kindly furnish particulars of the attested man to whom his question refers, with the material dates, inquiries will be made into the case at once and I will let him have an answer as soon as possible.

Public Departments (Special Tribunals)

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the belief that an undue number of men of military age are retained in public Departments, the Government are prepared to limit the discretion of the heads of the different departments by entrusting the decision in these cases to a special tribunal, so as to ensure that personal convenience shall not be allowed to outweigh the necessities of the nation?

I have been asked to answer this question. As my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House informed the hon. Member on 19th February, the Director of National Service has taken steps to secure that all men fit for military service who can be spared from Government Departments should be made available; and I can see no advantage in setting up a special tribunal. At the present time great difficulty is being experienced in carrying on the greatly expanded Government business with the deplenished permanent staff.

Is my hon. Friend not aware there are many hundreds of men at present employed in Government offices whose work could be quite well done by women clerks?

Tailoring Establishments (Llandudno)

asked the Home Secretary whether he has received a petition from the tailors of Llandudno and district pointing out that in Llandudno there are four tailoring establishments under the control of alien enemies, of whom two were interned after the out- break of the War, but were subsequently released; whether he is aware that several English tailors have had to close their businesses because they have joined the Colours, and that others will shortly do so; and whether the Government will take definite steps in regard to this case and others to prevent the business of honest Britons being stolen by alien enemies?

Yes, Sir. The petition referred to has been received, and inquiries have been made which show that it is not the case that there are at the present time four tailoring establishments in Llandudno under the control of alien enemies. The only tailors of enemy nationality now in Llandudno are two Bohemian Czechs, who have been in this country for twenty-one and fifteen years, respectively, are married to British subjects, have a number of British-born children, and, though technically of enemy nationality, are pro-Ally in their sympathies. They were interned for a short period at the commencement of the War, but were exempted from internment on the recommendation of the Advisory Committee. They are both anxious to enlist in the British Army, and with this object in view have been before medical boards. If they are not accepted for the Army they will be required to undertake work of national importance.

Medical Assistance

asked, with reference to the conscription of doctors, on what date the War Office discovered that they stand in need of further medical assistance?

The need of assistance from the medical profession has, of course, been continuous. If my hon. Friend refers to the recent call, I think he is aware that this is consequent on the decision to establish more hospitals overseas.

Does my hon. Friend remember that less than two months ago he said, in reply to a question in this House, that the War Office had all the medical assistance they required?

If the hon. Gentleman will read my answer to his question to-day he will see what change has taken place.

Motion for Adjournment (Thursday)

I beg to give notice to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary for War that on Thursday, on the Adjournment I will raise various matters arising out of answers which he gave me to-day, namely, firstly, the passing for military service in categories B1 and C1 of men who have been certified by military doctors to be suffering from valvular disease of the heart; secondly, the failure of the War Office to supply railway passes to return to Glasgow to men of the 7th Highland Light Infantry on their discharge in Morecambe to Class W (T) T.F. Reserve; and thirdly, the question of what is the date of a man's discharge for the purpose of the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act, the date of his rejection or the date when a certificate of discharge was issued to him, and the refusal of the War Office to indicate which date it is?

Staff Officers (Field Allowance)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he is aware that field allowance is granted to staff officers on consolidated pay on active service in France and is denied to staff officers serving under canvas at home; and whether he will take steps to adjust this difference of treatment by granting the allowance to staff officers on consolidated pay at home?

No, Sir. The allowance granted to officers on active service is a special allowance instituted at the beginning of the War for officers engaged in active operations overseas. It does not apply to officers in this country.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman knows perfectly well that the consolidated pay is intended to include all allowances, and this is a special allowance instituted for officers serving overseas.

Naval and Military Pensions and Grants

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether, when a claim for separation allowance is rejected by the Appeals Committee, any information as to the reason for the rejection is refused; and, if not, to whom should a request for information be addressed?

I am informed that it is not the practice of the Appeals Committee—of which my right hon. Friend the Member for North St. Pancras is chairman—to refuse information as to the reason for the rejection of a claim for dependant's separation allowance. Any inquiry for information should be ad-addressed to the Secretary, Appeals Committee, 119, Victoria Street, S.W. 1.

asked the Pensions Minister whether the cases of men discharged from the Army as medically unfit and refused pensions under the Regulations hitherto in force are being reconsidered; and, if so, whether he can furnish particulars of the number, or percentage, of such cases in which pensions have been granted undr the new Royal Warrant which became operative on the 4th instant?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Nineteen hundred applications have been received mainly in the last two weeks from men who have been discharged from the Army, and refused pensions under the Regulations hitherto in force. Up to the end of last week 200 pensions and 300 gratuities had been awarded in these cases and the remainder are in hand at various stages of consideration.

asked the Pensions Minister whether the cases of widows of sailors and soldiers who had previously been refused pensions or gratuities, and of those who had previously received gratuities only, are being re-considered; and, if so, whether he can state the number of such cases dealt with up to date, and in how many of them pensions have now been granted?

The number of widows' claims rejected for pension or gratuity under the old Regula- tions was 1,229, and the number rejected for pension, but admitted for gratuity, was 475, making a total of 1,704. Of this number, 1,013 have been re-considered, 983 have been admitted to pension, and thirty have been finally rejected. The re-consideration of the remaining cases will be completed in the course of a fortnight.

asked the Pensions Minister how many different central committees representing the various local statutory sub-committees have now been set up in England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales, respectively, in-connection with the treatment of disabled soldiers; and how many schemes have now been approved by the Ministry of Pensions and by the central committees in each portion of the United Kingdom?

The committees referred to in the hon. Member's question are Joint Advisory Committees to assist local committees in dealing with the treatment and training of disabled soldiers and sailors. Fourteen of these committees are contemplated for England, one or two for Wales, four for Scotland, and three for Ireland. Eight covering seventeen geographical counties in England have been agreed to at meetings of local committees representatives, and the four covering Scotland have been similarly agreed to in that country. A scheme for one or two committees for Wales is under discussion, and some preliminary inquiries have been made with regard to the three proposed for Ireland. I am communicating with the various local committees concerned with a view to expediting the formal constitution of the Joint Committees, so that these may proceed at once with their work of making available within their large areas the schemes for treatment and training which local committees have framed and are framing.

asked the Prime Minister whether he has now considered the establishment of an appeal Court to which discharged men could appeal before their disabilities are met by the payment of a gratuity; and whether he can say what the Government propose to do in the matter?

I have given full consideration to the matter referred to in the hon. Member's question, and propose that a tribunal should be set up to which disabled men who have been awarded a gratuity on account of disablement neither attributable to nor aggravated by military service can appeal if they consider that a pension should be granted to them under the recently enacted Royal Warrant and Order in Council.

Can my hon. Friend say when this Court will be set up, and how soon men can appeal to it?

Steps are already being taken to secure the requisite personnel, and I hope the Court will be set up very shortly.

Timber (Substitutes)

asked whether any steps have now been taken to notify to the railway companies conducted under War Office control that a Cabinet Instruction has been issued as to the necessity of avoiding the use of timber wherever possible; and whether any steps have been taken to point out the advantages of using concrete in lieu of timber for railway sleepers (on sidings), signal and telegraph posts, gate posts, and fence posts, as successfully applied on several of the railway companies in the United Kingdom, in the United States, and in certain Continental countries?

The necessity of exercising economy in the use of imported soft wood for railway purposes has been impressed upon the Railway Executive Committee, and the committee has lately pointed out to the various railway companies the desirability of substituting concrete for timber wherever possible.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that a Cabinet instruction has been issued as to the necessity of avoiding the use of timber wherever possible; whether any steps have been taken to advise the railway companies of this instruction and the advantages of substituting concrete for timber for railway sleepers on sidings, signal and telegraph posts, gate posts, and fence posts; and whether other corporations coming within the purview of his Board during the War have received recommendations on this point??

I understand that the Rail- way Executive Committee and other bodies have been approached on behalf of the War Office with a view to secure that substitutes shall be used for timber when-ever possible.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that a Cabinet Instruction has been issued as to the necessity of avoiding the use of timber wherever possible; whether he is aware that concrete poles are now cheaper than timber poles; whether any steps have been taken to utilise concrete in lieu of timber for the large numbers of telegraph poles annually erected or re-erected in the United Kingdom by his Department; and whether he is aware that such telegraph poles are largely used in France, Switzer-land, Italy, and in the United States?

I am aware of the Cabinet Instruction to which the hon. Member refers. The use of concrete or ferro-concrete poles in place of wood poles has been considered several times, but hitherto it has been found that the cost is prohibitive. It has not been necessary to reopen the question since the outbreak of war, because the construction of pole lines has been so limited that the existing stocks of poles have been generally sufficient to meet Post Office requirements. I do not expect to make further purchases for some time to come, but I will not fail to keep in mind my hon. Friend's suggestion.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that a Cabinet Instruction has been issued as to the necessity of avoiding the use of timber wherever possible; and whether any steps have been taken to encourage mine owners to use concrete pit-props, etc., in lieu of timber, as largely used in the United States?

Yes, Sir; the question of economy in the use of timber in mines has been receiving attention for some time. Owners have been urged to use substitutes, such as concrete, as far as possible, and I understand this is being done to a considerable extent.

Officers' Families (Grants)

asked if arrangements for working the new grants to officers' families in the hands of the Civil Liabilities Committee are not yet com- pleted and still further instructions have to be received from the War Office as to procedure; if, in view of the fact that about two months ago a promise was made that there should be no delay in carrying out the scheme, the War Office will take steps to accelerate the necessary arrangements; and if the grants, when issued, will date from the time of application?

My hon. and gallant Friend has been misinformed. The conditions under which the grants would be made were published in Special Army Order of the 14th March; the forms of application have been available since the 15th March, and a number of grants have already been made. The grants will, in the absence of special circumstances, run from the date of application.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make inquiries as to how a case in which the person who called and applied for the grant was told by the officials that arrangements have not yet been made by the War Office; and can anything be done?

I shall be pleased to make inquiries if my hon. and gallant Friend will give me particulars of the case.

Scottish Fisheries Committee

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he will add to the new Scottish Fisheries Committee representatives of the trawling and fishing industries?

The Committee includes two members directly connected with the fishing industry, and I am not prepared to enlarge its size. All sections of the industry will, however, have an opportunity of placing their views before the Committee if they wish to do so.

Corn Production Bill

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether, in the exercise of the powers given to the Agricultural Wages Board in the Corn Production Bill to set up district wages boards, regard will be paid to the special conditions of agriculture in Wales; and whether Welsh opinion will be consulted before the Regulations governing the constitution of district wages boards in Wales are framed, and as to the areas for which they should be established?

I should prefer to await the further progress of the Bill before answering questions as to its administration, but I may say that I am in general sympathy with the views indicated in the hon. Baronet's question.

Food Supplies

Wheat, Barley, and Oats (Statistics)

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture if he will grant the Return, standing in the name of the hon. Member for the Tradeston Division of Glasgow (Mr. White) of the area under and the estimated production of wheat, barley, and oats in the United Kingdom during the year 1913, by counties?—[Return showing for the year 1913 the acreage under, and the estimated production of, wheat, barley, and oats, respectively, in each county of England and Wales, Scotland and Ireland, with the totals for each of these countries, and the aggregate total.]

The information named is contained in Part II. of the Agricultural Statistics for 1913, in Part II. of the Agricultural Statistics of Scotland for 1913, and in the Agricultural Statistics for Ireland for 1913. It is hoped that in view of the scarcity of labour and the expense of paper and printing, the hon. Member will not press his request for a specially printed Return.

Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that it would only take a single sheet and would be very useful in this House?

Allotments

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he has received resolutions from local authorities and societies of allotment holders that legislation should be initiated to prevent present tenancies being disturbed after the War, except when the local authority, or upon appeal to the Board of Agriculture, are satisfied that there is a bonâ fide intention on the part of the owner immediately to use the land for building, and further to prevent the rents of such allotments from being increased, subject to the right of owners in urban areas to receive a minimum rent; and will the Government consider the possibility of Clauses to effect these purposes being embodied in the Corn Production Bill?

An amendment has already been made in the Regulation and Order dealing with this matter, which provides for payment of compensation to holders of allotments under the Order if disturbed before 1st January, 1919. In view of the provisions of the Defence of the Realm (Acquisition of Land) Act, 1916, it is not proposed to deal with the matter under the Corn Production Bill.

What is to happen to the allotment holders at the end of 1919? That is what we want to know.

Peas

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture if he can state how much land in England was used for growing peas for human food during the years 1913 and 1914 and 1915 and 1916, respectively; and how much land is sown with peas at the present time?

The area of land on holdings of 1 acre and upwards devoted to peas was as follows in the years 1913-16: 1913, 163,437 acres; 1914, 168,233 acres; 1915, 128,886 acres; 1916, 112,068 acres. Of these areas, 36,070 acres, 39,117 acres, 30,957 acres and 27,221 acres, respectively, were estimated to have been picked green. While it may be assumed that the areas "picked green" were grown for human food it is not known what proportion of the peas harvested dry is used for human food. No estimate can be formed of the area sown with peas under garden or allotment cultivation. No information is as yet available as to the areas that will be sown in 1917.

Potatoes

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he has any information as to the stock of potatoes in Ireland; whether the stock per head in Ireland is greatly in excess of the stock per head in the United Kingdom; and whether he has made any representations to the Irish authorities with a view to the removal of the restrictions against the export of potatoes from Ireland to the United Kingdom?

I have no exact particulars as to the stock of potatoes per head in Ireland, but I understand that a census is now being taken by the Irish Department of Agriculture to ascertain what the available supplies are. There is no reason to doubt that the stock per head in Ireland is in excess of that in Great Britain. This, however, is a normal state of affairs, as the ordinary consumption per head in Ireland is more than five times that in Great Britain. The question of the removal of the export restrictions has been fully discussed with the Irish Office.

Bread

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food, if he is aware that the bread supply of the country is dangerously low and that compulsory rationing is imminent; and if, in view of the fact that tons of bread could be saved weekly by restricting the hours when bread can be sold, he will take steps to adopt the suggestion laid before him?

The points raised in the first part of the question have been fully dealt with by the Food Controller within the past week, and I have nothing to add to the statement. I do not understand on what grounds the hon. Member believes that restriction of the hours of sale for bread would materially reduce the consumption.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if he can state the cost involved in a system of compulsory rationing or the adoption of bread tickets; if he is aware that persons could easily provide themselves with what they might require at afternoon hours, and that the compulsory restriction of the sale between 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. would entail very little hardship; and if he will make further inquiries?

The information asked for in the first part of the question cannot at present be given, but it is certain that the cost involved would be very large. As regards the second part of this question, as I have already stated, there is no reason to believe that compulsory restriction of sale between certain hours would materially affect consumption. On the other hand, it might involve distinct hardship in a large number of cases and interfere considerably with the war work of some sections of the population.

Malt

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, under a recent Order of his Department it is illegal to use malt for human food or other purpose other than the brewing of beer for sale?

The effect of the Malt (Restriction) No. 2 Order, combined with the Brewers (Malt Purchases) Order is substantially as stated in the question, subject, however, to the power of the Food Controller to issue licences of exemption from the terms of the Orders. Practically no brewers' malt is available, but diastatic malt is still being made for the purpose of using in human foods, bread, medicines, malt extracts, biscuits, Horlick's milk, etc. Licences are constantly granted for the use of malt for human food, especially for infants and invalids.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether the flour now being produced for bread making would be rendered more nutritious and digestible by the addition of 10 per cent. of malt flour, and by how much such addition would increase the cost of the 4-lb. loaf?

When this question was first raised the only information available was obtained from a few bakers who manufactured a special kind of bread with a substantial amount of malt flour mixed in with the ordinary flour. These bakers stated that they were selling the 2 lb. loaf at 9d. and ls., which was three to four times the price of ordinary bread. The question has now been more thoroughly investigated, and calculations show that if all malt flour was used, there would be an increase of 5d. in the price over the price of the 2 lb. loaf, or 10d. on the 4 lb. loaf, or nearly three times the price of ordinary bread. I would point out here that I suggested it would be more than three times the other day. A slight admixture of malt would probably render bread more nutritious; but so large an admixture as 10 per cent. would be inadvisable, because it would make the. bread sticky and unpalatable. The increased cost would probably be about 1d. per 4 lb. loaf.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether the malt still being manufactured for beverages, together with the stocks of malt, would, if converted into flour and used as a 10 per cent addition to the present standard flour, last for nearly six months; and whether such use would in effect give the country about eighteen days' additional safety in the matter of bread supplies?

The available stocks of malt, if converted into flour and used as a 10 per cent. addition to the present standard flour, would last for nearly eleven weeks; such use would be the equivalent of, approximately, one additional week's supply of flour for all purposes.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the working classes in the North are able to reduce the rations and take their food all the easier if they are able to wash it down with the usual glass of beer?

Will the hon. Gentleman answer that part of my question referring not only to the stocks but to the manufacture of beverages, and is it not a fact that the malt and grains so used would keep the country going on short rations for an additional month?

No, Sir; the estimate carefully made by experts in order to provide an answer to the question shows that the period would probably be no more than eleven or twelve weeks if 10 per cent. were used, and no more than a week if the product were made entirely of this constituent.

Does not the hon. Gentleman's answer only refer to the stocks and not to the other grain that is being used at the present time?

I am not quite sure what the hon. Member desires, but if he will put down another question I will endeavour to answer it.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Director of Food Economy suggests that if this saving could be made there would be no, question of a shortage, and may I ask whether, by saving one piece of bread per day, this system would not be better?

I think the matter well worthy of further investigation, but I think hon. Members are rather inclined to exaggerate the possible result of taking this course.

Milk

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he will specify the quarter from which he apprehends opposition to legislation for the purpose of providing the people of Irish towns and villages with land for the upkeep of cows, for the supply of milk, especially for children, a provision of which he admits the necessity; whether he is aware that sympathy with this purpose is so general as to ensure that such legislation would be non-contentious; and whether he will, by introducing a Bill dealing justly with individual opponents, leave them to submit or accept the odium of opposing?

There are existing statutory provisions for assistance in securing milk for young children. I should be glad, however, if the land available for cow pasture were increased. I doubt whether the ratepayers would be ready to accept the responsibility of the cost. If there were such readiness generally evidenced, I would have a Bill drafted for the purpose.

If the hon. Member will read the answer I have given he will see that that is what is suggested.

Crops Protection (Shot-Guns)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland under what statute, and in accordance with what principle, the English Government in Ireland now discriminates among individuals by preventing in some cases and allowing in others the possession and use of shot-guns for farm purposes, and confiscating the guns of which they prevent the use; and whether, in view of the present importance of protecting crops, uniformity of practice will be immediately introduced?

I am not aware of any such discrimination, and am informed that all reasonable facilities are given to farmers to have guns and ammunition for the destruction of vermin and the preservation of crops.

Questions

Ceylon

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will say what notice has been taken of the conduct of Mr. Hellings, Special Commissioner at Galle, Ceylon, in issuing a Proclamation there on 18th June, 1915, that persons not obeying orders or carrying firearms will be liable to be shot at sight; how many persons were shot without trial under this Proclamation; and what official position this Mr. Hellings now occupies?

I would invite reference to the answer given to a similar question on the 23rd April. Mr. Hellings is a member of the Ceylon Civil Service.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will explain why the nine Moors who were exposed as perjurers aiming at the life of Mr. D. J. Amaratunga, in Ceylon, in June, 1915, have never been tried for their crime; how many Sinhalese had previously been executed on the evidence of these witnesses; how many were imprisoned and how many are still in prison on the evidence of these witnesses; whether he is aware of the refusal of the special commissioner to supply Mr. Amaratunga with a copy of the proceedings in his own case, on the ground that several men had been convicted and punished on the evidence of the same witnesses; what law authorises that as a ground for refusal; and what action he proposes to take with reference to those perjurers and with reference to their victims?

I have no information on these matters, and I am not prepared to ask the Governor for particulars in face of the fact that as I have frequently stated to the House I have absolute confidence in Sir J. Anderson, and am satisfied that he is doing everything that justice demands in dealing with all these cases.

Does the right hon. Gentleman deny the sworn statement of the gentleman mentioned in the question, and if he does why has not this gentleman been tried for perjury?

Empire Harbours (Co-Ordination)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what action it is proposed to take respecting the co-ordination of the harbours of the Empire in accordance with the recommendations of the Dominions Royal Commission?

The recommendations referred to are under consideration, but it seems most unlikely that any action will be possible during the continuance of the War.

Munitions

Land for Sheds (Compensation)

asked the Minister of Munitions whether any arrangements have been come to with the tenants and landlords at Salterforth, Yorks, with regard to compensation for the land taken over in order to erect munition sheds; and, if so, when will compensation be paid?

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of MUNITIONS
(Sir L. Worthington Evans)

The claims have been investigated locally and are now under consideration by the Ministry. In the ordinary course the claims would then have to be passed to the Defence of the Realm (Losses) Commission for settlement, but it is hoped, by certain arrangements now under discussion, to shorten the procedure, so that the matter may be settled more quickly.

Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)

asked the Minister of Munitions if the Board of Control (Liquor Traffic) have received any memorials or resolutions in favour of State purchase from labour and other organisations in Scotland?

Including resolutions from local branches, the Board have received over sixty resolutions and memorials in favour of State purchase from labour organisations in Scotland, and it has been frequently advocated to the Board at deputations and conferences, particularly by the representatives of such organisations.

Can the hon. Gentleman give any information as to the resolutions representing the other view?

Has the hon. Gentleman seen the resolution passed by the Scottish Trades Council, representing the bulk of the working men in Scotland, by an overwhelming majority in favour of State purchase?

asked the Minister of Munitions if he will state the number of convictions for drunkenness in the London area of the Central Control Board for the first quarter of the present year compared with the corresponding period of the years 1913, 1914, 1915, and 1916?

The figures asked for were given on 17th April, in reply to a question by the hon. Member for Bury, to which I would refer my hon. Friend.

Spirits for Explosives

asked the Minister of Munitions whether any arrangement has yet been arrived at for making use of the existing stocks of bonded spirits for the manufacture of explosives, so as to release for the food of the people the grain and other food materials at present employed for such purposes; and whether any estimate has been made of the quantity of foodstuffs which could thus be saved for the nation?

The whole question is being carefully considered. I may say, however, that none of the patent still distilleries, except the yeast distilleries and those using molasses, are now being employed, and that the use of the yeast distilleries cannot be discontinued until a satisfactory solution of the problem of yeast production has been arrived at. This question is now being closely investigated.

May I ask the hon. Gentleman when it is expected that the Government will come to a decision on this important matter, which has been under consideration now for a considerable period?

I can only say that the importance is such that it will still have to remain under consideration for some little time longer.

Is it not a fact that yeast was a German product, and that this process is capturing a German trade?

I believe the English manufacturers, or the Scottish manufacturers, would not agree with my hon. Friend.

Questions

British Trade Corporation

asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether he will grant to British merchant firms established abroad the privilege of nominating their employés for the Government grant of capital to start them in business as proposed in Lord Faringdon's Report, clauses 14 and 15, in recognition of the services they have rendered to the nation in coming home and joining the Forces and fighting for the country, instead of waiting for the nominees of the Board of Trade to the British Trade Corporation to grow up and be trained in business; is he aware that many of these men have wide business experience; and (2) whether the chairman and the three managing directors for the new British Trade Corporation are to be Government employés and by whom are they to be appointed; will he state by whom the employés of the new British Trade Corporation are to be nominated, for which the Government is to find the capital to start them in business in different parts of the world; and what qualifications, if any, are they to have to receive the appointments as recommended by Lord Faringdon's Committee in clause 15?

The hon. Member seems to be under a misapprehension as to paragraph 15 of the Financial Facilities Committee's Report. The Committee suggested in that paragraph that the new institution might act as an agent for His Majesty's Government should the Government desire to assist, by means of advances, educated young men who, after the War, may wish to go into business abroad. His Majesty's Government have come to no decision on this suggestion. The chairman and managing directors of the British Trade Corporation will not be appointed by Government but in the manner provided for in the Deed of Settlement.

Is the hon. Member aware that some of the directors have already been appointed by the Board of Trade presumably; if not, by whom? And will the hon. Gentleman say, in the event of His Majesty's Government deciding to give funds to set up these young men, the employés of this Corporation, whether they will give pro rata to all the existing British merchants and not any preference to this Corporation?

I said in my reply that the Government have not come to a decision on that point.

Will they undertake that every British subject shall have equal rights and privileges?

I think I can give my hon. Friend the assurance that the Government will not discriminate between one person and another.

Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that these traders abroad are generally agents of insurance companies at home, and will he take care that there is no idea of monopoly or of Government preference given to these new young men as against established firms representing British insurance companies?

I will take note of that, and I am sure my hon. Friend will further direct my attention to it.

Will the Chancellor of the Exchequer give the House an undertaking that before this Corporation is proceeded with the House will have an opportunity of discussing it?

I am afraid I cannot now give an undertaking of that kind, but I will look into it and see how it stands.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade say who has nominated the directors of this British Trade Corporation?

I can only say, as I have said, that they are nominated under the Deed of Settlement.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the importance of the issues involved in the establishment and working of the British Trade Corporation and the interest taken therein by the whole commercial community, he will give a day for the discussion of the subject before sanctioning the details of the operations of the corporation?

I regret that it will not be possible to give a day for the discussion of this subject, but I understand that it can be raised when the Treasury Vote is taken.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will cause to be issued immediately a Parliamentary Paper containing the text of the Royal charter granted to the British Trade Corporation, together with an explanatory memorandum; and whether he can say what direct supervision the Government will be enabled to exercise over the actual working of the corporation?

I propose to issue the text of the charter at an early date as a Parliamentary Paper. Speaking generally, it is not proposed that the Government should exercise direct supervision over the actual working of the corporation, but in carrying on its business in any part of the world the corporation must exercise its powers with due regard to the interests of His Majesty's Government, and where the corporation acts as agent for the Government it will, of course, be strictly accountable to the Government as such.

Is my hon. Friend not aware that one of the first things the emissaries of this corporation will say to the natives and other people is that they are in a special position in relation to the British Government, and it is better to trade with them?

The hon. Gentleman cannot possibly tell what will be said by someone else.

"Nation" Newspaper

asked the Prime Minister who are the directors of the "Nation" newspaper whose articles have been picked up in the German trenches and circulated for the encouragement of their soldiers; and where were the articles originally published?

The Gentleman referred to by my right hon. Friend was the hon. Member for Stirling Burghs, who is, as my right hon. Friend is informed, associated with the direction of the Trust fund created for subsidising the "Nation" and other papers.

On whose information does the hon. Gentleman say that I am a director or am associated with the "Nation"? Is he further aware that no article over my signature has appeared in the "Nation" since the beginning of the War?

I understand that the article referred to was not published in the "Nation," but in the "New York Times," and that it was quoted in the paper found in the possession of a German prisoner. In regard to the last part of the question, I can only refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer I have given.

Are we to understand that the Prime Minister's statement was made with his usual inaccuracy?

May we get a definite statement on that point? Is the statement that we have had in reply to this question the only foundation for the statement made by the Prime Minister at that box the other day?

I, of course, do not know what was my hon. Friend's information. I have seen the paper referred to on the German prisoner, and I have seen the extract from the "New York Times."

National Service

University Graduates

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that a university graduate with three degrees, who has been pronounced unfit by one medical board and subsequently C2 by another, and who has been given exemption for one month to secure work of national importance, has sent in a form to the Director of National Service, a letter to the Director of the same, and had two interviews with the Sub-Commissioner without result, has paid five visits to the substitution office where he was declared unfit for heavy labour, has paid four visits to Labour Exchanges with no success for employment as a munition worker, has been sent to the Great Western Railway locomotive sheds but refused by the manager as unfit and unskilled, has been informed by the Board of Agriculture that there are no vacancies, by the. Board of Education that it is not a scholastic agency, by Professor Schlick that forestry is not of national importance, by the Board of Trade that they cannot help, and by himself that attention is being given to his request; and whether he can state if he has given attention to it, or if there is any agency controlled by the Government where this man may find something to do to satisfy a tribunal which ought not to take him?

I have been asked to answer this question. If the time within which the employment imposed by the tribunal, as I understand, has elapsed and this gentleman has not secured work, it is open to him to lay his case again before the tribunal showing what efforts he has made and to ask them to reconsider their decision or to grant further time. He might also ask the tribunal to refer his case to the Committee on Work of National Importance, who would be willing, I understand, to try and place him in work of national importance.

Is my hon. Friend aware that I have already sent the name of this lecturer at Oxford University to the Prime Minister? He was given a month to find work of national importance. He applied to all the organisations mentioned in my question, and he has been unable to find that work. What is the use of my hon. Friend referring him again to the Committee for Providing Work of National Importance if, after exerting himself for a month, he cannot get work?

Are we to understand that this is a sample of the methods of scientific organisation?

Postal Work

asked the Postmaster-General whether the machinery of the Volunteer Munitions' Brigade, situated at 54, New Broad Street, E.C., is being utilised to recruit men for postal work; whether men of military age who have been given certificates of exemption are being engaged on post office work as work of national importance; and, if so, whether, in the interests of efficiency and economy, he will consider the desirability of continuing in employment competent and established officers already in the service, and in cases where work of national importance is given by tribunals to Post Office servants to allow such men to continue on their own work?

I understand that a few men have been engaged through the Volunteer Munitions' Brigade for collecting heavy postings in the City on three or more evenings a week. I understand that some of them hold certificates or exemption, but these certificates were not issued by or under the authority of the Post Office, and I should not regard their employment in the Post Office as a ground for exempting them from military service. Post Office servants who are granted exemption by tribunals are usually allowed to remain in the Post Office service where this course is agreed to by the tribunal.

Substitution (Revised Scheme)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of National Service whether the revised scheme of Substitution Volunteers in the place of National Service Volunteers is now complete; and, if so, Would he give its main outlines to the House?

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY OF NATIONAL SERVICE
(Mr. Stephen Walsh)

The hon. and gallant Member will no doubt realise the difficulty of giving even the main outlines of this scheme within the limits of question and answer. The principles on which the new scheme is based may, however, be summarised as follows:

May I take it then that if a man is already enrolled as a National Service Volunteer he need not worry to be exchanged into a Substitution Volunteer?

Yes, of course. That is to say, a person who is on the roll at the present time may be taken and placed as a substitute when a proper vacancy occurs.

War Office (Supplies)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the new Surveyor-General of Supplies to the War Office has already been enabled to save over £1,000,000 a week to the nation; if so, will he say how this sum is made up; and whether he can state who was responsible for the misfeasance in previous months?

It is not possible at present to fix definitely the share of the economies being effected which is assignable to the work of the new Surveyor-General.

Is it or is it not the fact that he has saved over a million pounds a week?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) whether the occupant of the newly-created office of Surveyor-General of Supplies to the War Office is a member of the Government; whether he will go out of office with the Government; if not, whether he is a Civil servant or what is his exact status; whether the powers he will exercise are delegated by or whether they are transferred from the Financial Secretary; if the latter, whether he can state any constitutional authority for the Government doing so without Parliamentary sanction; (2) whether he can now state if the Surveyor-General of Supplies will be subject to the authority of the Financial Secretary to the War Office; if not, whether the powers to be exercised by him will involve the withdrawal from the Financial Secretary of powers hitherto exercised by the latter; and, if so, whether it is proposed to take this step without Parliamentary sanction?

No, Sir; the Surveyor-General of Supply is not a member of the Government nor is he an established Civil servant. He has been appointed by the Secretary of State for War and performs gratuitously the functions assigned to his office by the Order in Council of the 20th ultimo. This Order in Council has been laid before Parliament in accordance with the provisions of Section 4 of the War Office Act of 1870.

Questions

German Prisoners (Exchange)

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the doubt in the minds of many people as to the desire of the civilian German prisoners interned here to return to their native land, he will direct an inquiry to be made at the internment camps as to the number of inmates who would now wish to be repatriated if arrangements were made with the German Government for an exchange?

The course suggested by my hon. Friend would, in the opinion of the Home Office, involve great labour on the part of the staffs of the respective camps; and it would seem premature to adopt it until it has been found possible to carry out existing agreements to their full extent.

Having regard to the fact that the Department over which the hon. Gentleman presides is using this statement of the wishes of German pri- soners to prevent an exchange, will he not, in common fairness and honesty, ask the German prisoners and the interned men whether or not they wish to go back?

In the first place, I preside over no Department; and, in the second place, I am not prepared to ask German prisoners this question at present. It would only create false expectations, and by the time it was found possible to effect the exchange—even if we could arrange to effect anything like a large further exchange—very possibly those concerned would have changed their minds. I cannot say that the matter is entirely ruled out, but it would be quite premature to debate it at present.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is the very course which has been adopted by the German Government in regard to our men who were returned from Ruhleben?

That is possibly so; but they had only 3,000 or 4,000 to deal with. Throughout the British Empire we have nearly ten times as many.

Colonel Sir George M'crae

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer on what date he received from the hon. and gallant Member for South Edinburgh his application for the Chiltern Hundreds; on what date Colonel Sir George M'Crae, resigned from the Scottish Local Government Board and from the Army; and on what date he was appointed Chief Whip?

I have not received an application from the hon. and gallant Member for South Edinburgh for the Chiltern Hundreds. Sir George M'Crae has not resigned from the Vice-Presidency of the Local Government Board of Scotland nor, as I have already stated, has he been appointed Chief Whip.

Does the position now amount to this that neither of these gentlemen has resigned anything; if that is so, could the right hon. Gentleman give me any hint as to the nationality of these two cautious gentlemen?

The hon. Gentleman has repeated my answer. In so far as the men are concerned, it is true they have resigned nothing. In regard to their nationality I do not know, but I do not think it is Irish.

Super-Tax (Insurance Premiums)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he proposes in the forthcoming Budget to restore the right of the Super-taxpayer to recover the amount of the tax on his insurance policy premiums on policies taken out previous to last year's Finance Act; and whether regard will be had to the fact that these policies were taken out on the assurance of the Government that this allowance would be made, but that the Act was, notwithstanding, made retrospective?

I may remind the hon. Member that the allowance of life assurance premiums as a deduction for the purposes of Super-tax was deliberately withdrawn as recently as last year by Section 36 of the Finance Act, 1916, after full consideration and discussion in this House.

Reversible Cable Addresses

asked the Postmaster-General whether he can now arrange for the use of reversible cable addresses with the United States of America, as was customary in pre-war days?

Since the outbreak of War the same privileges in respect of the use of registered abbreviated addresses have been accorded to the United States of America as to the United Kingdom and her Allies. No change is contemplated, therefore, in the existing Regulations, which the censorship authorities consider it necessary to maintain in the interests of the public safety.

Enemy Attacks on Kent Coast

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can give any further information to the House in respect to the recent naval attack on Ramsgate; and can he explain why so many enemy attacks are possible on the Kent coast, whilst British naval attacks are apparently impossible on Zeebrugge?

All the information in my possession has already been made public. Although the loss of life occasioned by these raids is most regrettable, it must be remembered that they possess no military value. I can assure my hon. Friend that the First Sea Lord and myself, and the Vice-Admiral at Dover, have been giving continuous attention to the dispositions in this area, in order as far as possible to meet these attacks.

Is it the view of my right hon. Friend that these German officers, who have been continually killing women and children for the last year, are entitled to be described, as they have been by the Vice-Admiral at Dover, as "a brave and gallant enemy"?

With reference to the description of men who are dead, I would rather leave it to the feeling of the House.

Can my right hon. Friend explain how it is that enemy destroyers pass through our defensive mine-field with immunity?

Is all my right hon. Friend's information the information that has been made public? Will he get some more which is of some use?

Is it not a fact that a third German destroyer was attacked and bombed by one of the Royal Naval Air Service aeroplanes?

Deportations (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland who it is that determines the form and duration of punishment inflicted upon political opponents of the Government deported from Ireland without charge or trial; and, having regard to the facilities afforded to the Irish deportees now in various parts of England for making a direct and first-hand study of the moral and mental character of the English people, and returning to Ireland with increased contempt for them, whether those deportees will now be either released and compensated or sent for trial before packed juries in the counties proposed to be partitioned from Ireland, so that if they be criminals they may be imprisoned?

The competent military authority by whose order the deportations were made is able to rescind the order for deportation if and when that course is warranted by the facts. I am informed that this is not so at the present time.

The right hon. Gentleman, has not answered who it is that determines the nature and duration of the punishment in these cases?

I have answered that. The hon. Member will find, if he reads the answer, that I have said it is the competent military authority.

British Vice-Consul (Riga)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Mr. George Wiskemann, a British subject born of German parents, was appointed as British Vice-Consul at Riga since the War began; and whether, without making any suggestions that this gentleman is not thoroughly patriotic, he will consider the desirability under the present circumstances of being represented in Russia by a Vice-Consul of British extraction?

Mr. G. Wiskemann is a natural-born British subject of German parentage. He was appointed unpaid Vice-Consul at Riga previous to the outbreak of the War, and is now assisting in His Majesty's Consulate at Archangel. He was educated at Wellington College and Cambridge. His Majesty's Ambassador at Petrograd has made full and careful inquiry into Mr. Wiskemann's character and reputation, and is fully satisfied as to his reliability. In these circumstances it is not proposed to take any action in the matter.

Having regard to the very particular position in regard to Germany and Russia, is it possible to transfer this gentleman to some other post, where his German parentage could not be open to misconstruction?

Any suggestion my hon. Friend makes will be considered, but in this matter I think we must be guided by our representative at Petrograd.

German Officer Prisoners (Servants)

asked whether the servant of every German officer prisoner in English hands is provided with the following articles: One ordinary suit, one suit of overalls, one suit of white ducks for waiting at table, one suit of oilies (trousers, coat, and sou'wester complete), one pair of boots, one pair of rubber boots, one pair of shoes, and one pair of slippers for waiting quietly at table; and, if so, can he state how this compares with the outfit supplied to the British soldier and with the outfit, if any, supplied by the Germans to British prisoners in their hands?

In addition to the clothing supplied to other German prisoners the servants of German prisoner officers receive a canvas suit or overalls; waiters receive a white apron and a white jacket; the men employed in the kitchen receive a pair of wooden-soled shoes. The scale of clothing supplied to German prisoners is not equal to that supplied to the British soldier. I have no information as to the outfit supplied by the Germans to British prisoners.

Admiralty Vote

(by Private Notice) asked the Leader of the House whether his refusal to put down the Vote for the First Lord of the Admiralty on one of the Supply days is final; and, in referring us to precedents, saying there are no precedents during the War, will he bear in mind the fact that the Vote for Lord Kitchener's salary as Secretary of State for War was put down during the War?

That is not an exact precedent. As at present advised, I do not think it would be desirable to have a discussion on the Vote to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers, and I think it would be better to deal with it at a private sitting.

Does my right hon. Friend contemplate that the private Session of the House will be confined to one particular topic or can all topics be raised?

It will be possible to raise any topic which hon. Members desire to raise.

Can that be considered any substitution for a definite discussion on a definite question? A general discussion roaming over the whole field of the War can be no substitution for a discussion on some definite war topic.

It does not follow, although all subjects may be discussed, that there will not be a definite discussion on one particular subject. That very often happens in the House when there is a similar latitude. I still adhere to the view that it would not be desirable to have a discussion on the Admiralty Vote.

Imperial War Conference

Question of Privilege

May I take this opportunity of raising a question concerning the privileges of hon. Members of this House? Some time ago I addressed to the Leader of the House a question as to whether it was the privilege of an hon. Member to make a proposal to the Imperial Conference, and he answered, "Yes, a Member of the House can send in any proposal either by letter or by special messenger." Accordingly, I sent in a proposal, addressed to the members of the Imperial Conference, and I have received this letter from the secretary to the Imperial Conference:

" Sir,—I have laid before Mr. Long your letter of the 25th April, addressed to the members of the Imperial War Conference. In any case it is contrary to practice to lay before the Conference communications from private individuals, and Mr. Long, as Chairman of the Conference, has directed that your letter should be returned to you as, in view of its terms, he declines to receive it"

May I read the communication itself—it is not a long one—which I sent to the members of the Imperial Conference?

I do not think the hon. Member need read the letter. Can he make out any case of a breach of privilege? He has not done so up to the present. That is the only reason which enables him to bring the matter forward now.

I will leave the reading of the communication. I say that it is a breach of privilege that I, as a Member of this House, having received not exactly an invitation, but permission from the Leader of the House to submit a proposal to the Imperial Conference, and having submitted a proposal which lies entirely within their functions, have received from another member of the Government a communication that it is not permitted to me to make that proposal on the ground that I am a private individual. Is that not a breach of the privileges of the Members of this House?

I do not see any breach. There is no right belonging to any Member of this House to send communications to the Imperial Conference if they do not wish to receive them.

Questions

Technical Instruction (Ireland)

asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether it can be ascertained from the minutes of the Board of Technical Instruction how much of the Agricultural Board's subsidy for manual instruction and instruction in domestic economy in rural places was set aside in respect of each county for the year 1914–15?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to a similar question put by him on 23rd November last, to which the Department of Agriculture are not in a position to add anything.

Irish Exporting Manufacturers

asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether steps can now be taken to bring out a new edition of the list of Irish exporting manufacturers, first published by the Department in 1911; and, if so, whether the essential features of the publication will be retained, especially that of the translation into the five commercial languages of the world and the list of Irish exporters who are users of the Irish national trade mark?

The Department of Agriculture still have over 1,000 copies of the list referred to, and copies are frequently issued in response to applications. Although now in some respects incomplete it is still substantially accurate. The question of revision has been under consideration with a view to a reissue when the time is more opportune, and care will be taken that any revised issue will be in no sense inferior to the present one.

Old Age Pensions

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland on what grounds an old age pension has been refused to James Sullivan (Comba), of Ballinakilla, Bere Island, in the union of Castletownbere; whether he is aware that the only means the applicant has is a small unprofitable holding; and whether, seeing that his circumstances fully entitle him to a pension, he will have his application reviewed with a view to granting him the pension he is entitled to receive?

The claim of James Sullivan, of Ballinakilla, Bere Island, was disallowed on the ground that his means exceeded the statutory limit. His farm of 20 acres had the usual extent of tillage, 2 acres, and carried four cows, seven other cattle, and four sheep. The Local Government Board have no authority to reconsider the claim.

Prison Warders (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he is aware that the Irish Prison Estimates for 1917–18 show eighteen first-class and fifty second-class warders distributed amongst the different prisons; whether, seeing that only eight first-class and thirty-four second-class warders are employed, he will say why the number of first-class and second-class warders estimated for have not been promoted; and if he will take steps to see that such will be done immediately?

The complete establishment is that named. There are only 491 male prisoners in custody in local prisons, and the number of first-class and second-class warders at present employed is sufficient to meet the actual requirements of the prisons service.

Personal Explanation

I desire to ask the indulgence of the House in order that I may make a brief personal statement at this the first possible opportunity. I have just returned from America. In November last questions were put in this House with reference to the object of my visit and certain newspaper reports of a speech I was supposed to have made in New York. The full record of my speech is in existence, and there is not a word which I desire to alter or apologise for. The newspaper accounts were inaccurate, and in some cases fabrications. The statement attributed to me by a paper in California, published at a greater distance from New York than I am at this moment, which I understand formed the basis of the attacks upon me, was without any foundation in fact.

When I went to America I told the Board of Education of my intention to study the educational system of that country from the standpoint of reconstruction in this country after the War, and, at my request, the Board gave me formal letters of introduction to five gentlemen connected with education in America. The suggestion that these letters were asked for or used for any other purpose is false. In the cases in which they were used, the gentlemen to whom they were presented have vindicated me from a particularly malicious invention. The suggestion that I have been engaged in any sort of anti-British campaign is also false.

I should have asked the indulgence of the House to a greater extent, but I understand that this is not necessary, and that the Foreign Office has received from the British Ambassador in Washington the relevant papers establishing the accuracy of the facts I have set forth. I have just received a message from the Noble Lord (Lord R. Cecil) stating that only the Rules of the House prevent him rising immediately to confirm what I have said, but that he will take another opportunity of doing so. I desire to thank the House for its kind indulgence.

Message from the Lords

That they have agreed to,—

War Pensions Bill, with Amendments.

That they have passed a Bill, intituled "An Act to transfer to the Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Tramways Company the tramway undertaking of the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the borough of Ilkeston; and for other purposes." [Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Tramways Bill [Lords.]

And also a Bill, intituled "An Act for incorporating and conferring powers on the Haslemere and District Gas Company." [Haslemere and District Gas Bill [Lords.]

War Pensions Bill

Lords Amendments to be considered Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 36.]

Orders of the Day

Supply.—[7th Allotted Day.]

Civil Services and Revenue Departments Estimates, 1917–18

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

OFFICE OF WORKS AND PUBLIC BUILDINGS.— Class II

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £91,150, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Commissioners of His Majesty's Works and Public Buildings."—[NOTE.—£68,000 has been voted on account.]

I am sure that the Committee will extend to me that indulgence which it always does to any Member of its body who for the first time undertakes a new duty. I have held the office I now occupy for a relatively short space of time, and I am sure that any shortcomings which may occur in my dealing with the Estimates will be forgiven me. Perhaps it would be more interesting and profitable for the Committee if I dealt in a little more comprehensive form with the Estimates than would have been possible had I proceeded on a course of merely offering replies to questions that might be put to me. So much of the work of my Department at present is work which does not strictly fall within the Estmates at all, and which yet is of very great public importance and national value that I have felt that it was only right to those who have been labouring so unceasingly in the service of the State that their efforts should be brought to the attention of this Committee and of the country in a somewhat fuller manner than I should have been able to do in any other form. Dealing first with the Vote itself, a small increase is shown on the Estimates, and it is entirely due to natural increments of salaries and is therefore automatic. We have at present in the office 2,925 employés, of whom 2,228 are men, and of these no less than 956 have joined His Majesty's Forces, a result I think which must be considered very satisfactory. The total number of unmarried men of military age of all classifications eligible for the Service is 123, and the total number of married men of all classes eligible for military service is 225. When I was appointed to the office I now hold, I made it my duty personally to investigate the whole question whether there was any recruitable residuum left in the employment of the office, and with the assistance and loyal co-operation of the heads of the various Departments I succeeded in getting released another 69 men, some of whom have joined the Colours and others of whom are in process of being substituted. I think, therefore, so far as the Office of Works is concerned, that many of the attacks, and a good many of the unfair attacks, that have been made on Civil Servants for not joining His Majesty's Forces are entirely unjustified. No less than 48 of the staff of the Office of Works have paid the ultimate sacrifice and have fallen, in action. The Department, through its members in the field, has received six Military Crosses, two Military Medals, and' three Distinguished Conduct Medals.

I have said that a great deal of the work of the Department has been of a character which does not fall directly to my Department. It is work that has been very largely done by the War Office, the Ministry of Munitions and other Departments, and of course it is recoverable from those Departments from a financial point of view. The quantity of work which has fallen on various branches of the Office of Works is very considerable. Since 1916, in the London area alone, some thirty-three temporary buildings to meet the expansion of the Departments at a total cost of about £312,000 have been erected. The demands of the Inland Revenue, in view of the changes made in the Income Tax by the legislation of last year, compelled the provision of new offices and extensions in no less than 200 cases in all parts of the country at an estimated annual cost of £17,000 and an intitial cost of £35,000. The entire work was done and completed within three months. It is an interesting instance how often the legislation and the Votes of this House increase the necessity for accommodation at the public expense, at the same time that we have complaints of the want of economy. No less than eight or nine military hospitals were erected and furnished and fitted out by the Department A very large amount of very important ammunition factories, filling factories, shell stores, and other buildings has been and is to-day being carried out.

A sum of no less than £7,000,000 is being spent. A considerable amount has been spent since the beginning of the War under the supervision and control of the architect and officers of the Department. Quite a considerable proportion of the work, some of it of a most important nature, has been prepared and executed by these officers. Depots to the extent of nearly £1,000,000, gun and searchlight stations in London and the provinces to the extent of £250,000, and housing schemes, such as that at Woolwich, to the extent of over £800,000, have been carried out by the architects and staff of the Department. I mention these figures and facts because I think they are very little known, and the work which is involved in the preparation, supervision, and carrying out of these various operations is really of a most admirable character. I have been, of course, accustomed all my life to industrial work and to the creation and erection of factories and engineering works, but I have been gratified to the highest extent in the case of such work as I have personally visited, some of it of enormous magnitude, to notice the organisation, the engineering skill, and the enthusiasm with which the work is being carried through. I cannot, and must not, go into details, but one of the largest of these factories, còsting when completed nearly £1,500,000, is to be completed in what in pre-war days we should have considered an impossible time. I can give the Committee some idea of the magnitude of the operations here when I inform them that no less than 350,000 tons of gravel and sand for the purposes of ballast and concrete have been used in that case alone. A very curious and interesting fact has been brought to my notice in connection with some of these buildings. In spite of the high cost of labour, overtime, and the high cost of materials, the running cost of the building of a number of these factories is to-day actually turning out at a lower rate than would have been thought possible in pre-war times.

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In the case of one important factory which I visited a short time ago, which is a very solid and heavy brick and timber construction, the running cost works out at 3·65d. per foot cube, whereas I am told it would have been estimated before the War at no less than 7d. Other examples of similar prices have been submitted to me. They are certainly very interesting and very staggering results. They are entirely unexpected. Examination will tend to show that rapidity of construction, good organisation, putting the job through without any hitch or delay, a careful calculation of the minimum factors of safety employable, and careful thought about the best material to use, open up a prospect in the future of cheaper construction than we have had in the past. I hope that some of the lessons that have been learned, and which I imagine have been learned on a good many subjects, during the War, will be maintained when peace comes. One of the undertakings which may possibly interest the Committee, which was carried out by the Department, was in reference to the unfortunate explosion which took place in the East of London in January last. The reinstatement of something like over 800 houses, all in various states of dilapidation and ruin, has been, of course, a task both of difficulty and of complication, because the operations have necessarily been on a detailed scale; yet they were begun within a few days after the explosion took place. The explosion took place on the 19th January, and the work was begun on the 25th January. By the 12th March, 804 houses had been re-roofed, slated, glazed, and rendered weather-proof, and 106 houses completed and handed over. Up to a few days ago 44 shops, 393 houses, 8 stables and 1 church had been handed over entirely complete. When I inform the Committee that something like 94 acres of plastering have been put in up to date and 192 miles of slating battens used, it will give them some idea of the amount of work carried out in these operations.

Another subject which has led to a certain amount of criticism in the Press and questions to me in this House is the question of the accommodation which it is the duty of my Department to supply for Government offices. I should like to make it clear, because in various questions it does not appear to be clear in the minds of all hon. Members, that it is no part of the function of the Office of Works to exercise any voice or criticism either of the number of Depart- ments the Government wish to create or the staff which Ministers in charge of those Departments consider necessary for their duties. The only function of the Office of Works, when those responsible for these Departments apply for accommodation, is to see that they obtain the most suitable and economical occupation of premises which are necessary for that purpose, that they are furnished, and that those premises are used, as far as possible, in an economical manner. When I took office I found that the demands for accommodation of some of the War Departments had accumulated and was becoming a very serious matter. Conflicting claims of various Departments kept coming in, and sometimes conflicting claims from various branches of the same Department. It seemed to me that this was a method which would lead to probably the greatest delay and the maximum amount of accommodation being used and great expenditure. I therefore requested the Cabinet to agree to the appointment of a small Committee, which is known as the Committee of Accommodation, of which I am the chairman and the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty, the Financial Secretary to the War Office, and the Under-Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions are members. The terms of reference to this Committee were:— dealing with the subject in the House of Commons. I wish, however, to take this. opportunity of thanking these gentlemen who are doing a large amount of work—and very useful work—entirely without any remuneration, for the labours which they have so kindly undertaken. I feel quite sure that the criticisms they offer and transmit to the responsible people in the different Departments will bear, and are bearing, good fruit. The question of accommodation will, I feel certain, remain a difficulty with us until the end of the War. All I can say is, that, so far as I am concerned, and I am quite sure as far as that Committee is concerned, we shall use our utmost endeavours both to reduce it to the smallest possible extent and endeavour to induce Departments to accept accommodation of the most economical character. Naturally, with the circumscribed areas of work, the necessity for economy and the necessity of being within distance of each other, the problem is not an easy one. I should like also to take this opportunity of stating that the Committee of Accommodation recently have taken over Bridgwater House, which Lord Ellesmere very generously placed at the disposal of the Government, and which will be occupied in a very short time by part of the branch of the Shipping Controller. The Supplies Department of the Office of Works naturally has been involved together with the Architects' Department in a very large and increasing amount of work. The fitting up of new offices, the fitting up of munition and filling factories, the supply of furniture and all other accessories have enormously increased its activities. A few figures will give a better indication of these than any lengthy statement. Comparing the years 1913 and 1916, I find that in 1913 the Department supplied 1,600 office tables, against 13,000 in 1916, 4,600 chairs against 59,000 in 1916, and 21,000 cups and saucers against 140,000. The strain imposed upon the Department is naturally great, and it is gratifying that the work has proceeded so smoothly and with so much ability.

Another point on which I should like—to say a few words is a question which aroused at the time a considerable amount of discussion—that is, the policy I have adopted regarding the question of utilising some of the parks for the production of food. When I first went to the Office of Works, I found that the question of using some of the Royal parks for food production had been considered so far back as April, 1916, by my predecessor. The question then assumed the form of planting Regent's Park with potatoes on a large scale. This proposition was, not unnaturally, not proceeded with. Between that date and December last the food question undoubtedly became infinitely more urgent, and I thought it my duty to ascertain whether there were any areas of land under our control which were in any way suitable for the growing of any form of food, and, if so, what? With this in view, I had a report drawn up by those officials of the Board of Trade who are most expert on the subject. Not being satisfied to act entirely or only on their responsibility, I then took the further step of obtaining the valuable advice of Dr. E. J. Russell, the director of the Rothamsted Experimental Station, who will be recognised by everybody as perhaps the greatest, or one of the greatest, agricultural experts in this country. Dr. Russell very kindly spent the best part of a week in investigating all the different parks, taking samples of all the different soils, and taking samples of all the different kinds of grasses to be botanically examined, so that it would be possible to replace them when the ground had to be returfed. This analysis was very interesting and satisfactory. It showed that the soils in question, if we decided to operate, were perfectly suitable for the work, were marked by no particular poverty in any direction, and, with ordinary standard fertilisers, ought to produce good results. Having proceeded thus far, I naturally discussed the matter with my colleague the President of the Board of Agriculture, and obtained his very hearty concurrence in the scheme. I mention that fact because I saw a number of statements at different times in the Press which indicated the action I took was one which had not received the concurrence or assent of the Board of Agriculture. Of course, I consulted the President personally before proceeding with the scheme. The scheme proceeded entirely in a normal way. We are planting about 150 acres of oats, a commodity of which my Department is a considerable consumer.

Half in Bushey Park and half in Richmond Park. The work has been undertaken on contract by an experienced farmer with motor machinery, and so far as one is able to judge there is no reason why the results should not be as satisfactory as one would expect from the ploughing up of land of that character. In view of the fact that since that day the Director of Food Production has been moving energetically to get 300,000 acres of land, much of it similar and some of it of an inferior character, ploughed up, I cannot say that I have failed or that I have been doing anything but my duty in giving, at any rate, some example in regard to the land under the control of my Department. The natural result ought to be, so far as can be estimated, satisfactory, and in view of the fact that undoubtedly, according to the best opinion at the present time, we shall probably be short of cereal crops in this country, not merely for the year 1917, but for the year 1918 and the year 1919 as well, by that time the operations will have justified themselves.

It may interest the Committee to know that in this matter we are following a precedent laid down in a previous war. At the time of the Crimean War the very same operations were undertaken. In addition to this, many demands were made on the Department regarding the provision of allotments in various parks and other public spaces. As far as possible, under suitable safeguards, that demand has been complied with. It has not always been possible to comply with it as a great deal more of the land in the public parks was utilised for the training of troops, as playgrounds for children, and other purposes of that character which one does not wish to interfere with than is generally recognised. Obviously all soils are not suited to cultivation, and one naturally does not wish to create disappointment by allowing small allotments to be taken up and planted with no result, but we have succeeded in applying 5 acres in Bushey Park for the Teddington District Council, 6 acres for the city of Edinburgh in Holy-rood Park, 5½ acres at Primrose Hill to the Hampstead Joint Productions Committee; 5½ acres to the St. Pancras Borough Council, and about 2½ acres in Kensington Palace Gardens. All these allotments are let at a rent of £2 per acre on terms that they are to continue practically for the period of the War and such period afterwards as is guaranteed in the Order relative to the acquisition of vacant land by local authorities. As far as we have been able to meet the demands we have been very ready and anxious to do so. Many of the schemes which have been put forward, such as that for the planting of potatoes in Regent's Park and in other places, broke down on closer examination. Regent's Park, for instance, is very heavy, undrained clay, and is extremely unsuitable for planting anything. Hyde Park again is not at all suitable for cultivation, as far as the land is concerned. The only thing we have committed ourselves to in these two parks is the creation of two demonstration plots for the growing of vegetables suitable for London gardens. Having on the staff one of the most expert gardeners, I suppose, in the country, we thought it wise to utilise his services in this manner, and we had prepared a very useful little pamphlet giving the different kinds of vegetables and the best seeds for the purpose of growing in the suburban gardens of London. The Department will be very pleased to give copies of such pamphlets to anyone who cares to inquire for them or who inquires at the plots.

The last subject I will trouble the Committee with is one which was placed in the charge of my Department a short time ago at my suggestion, and that is the question of a national war museum. I think we are the first Government which has officially taken this step. It will present to posterity the great effort made by this Empire and by our Allies, and also the efforts made by our opponents in this great War. Although in other countries private individuals have already proceeded to make important collections of war matters, no Government has officially taken the matter up, and it was high time that steps were taken to commence. Already many valuable, important and heroic records have become scattered and lost. Articles relating to the first period of the War are already becoming scarce, and trophies of an important national character are being either dispersed or lost. The object of the Committee, of which I am chairman, is to endeavour to gather together these very important records, large and small, so that future generations may see what their forefathers did. The scheme is naturally a large one. To make it as comprehensive as it ought to be will require, in the time to come, financial assistance from the Government. The Committee at present consists of the First Commissioner of Works, the Director-General, Sir Martin Conway, Commander C. C. Walcott, R.N. (representing the Admiralty), Mr. B. B. Cubitt, C.B. (representing the War Office), Colonel J. R. Stansfeld, C.B. (representing the Ministry of Munitions), Professor C. W. C. Oman, who represents literature; and Mr. Ian Malcolm, M.P., who represents art and literature. Mr. Ffloukes is the secretary. The Committee has appointed a number of Departmental sub-committees, which are now engaged in organising this important work, and I am glad to say we have appointed a special ladies' committee, whose function will be to see that the important work of women during the War is adequately represented. I want to enlist the co-operation of the House and of the country generally in this matter. The responsibility of carrying it out is undoubtedly considerable. It ought to form a great national war memorial quite as much as merely a museum of dead things It ought to be, in fact, as far as possible, a living record, interesting, and at the same time valuable to the historian of the future, to students of armaments, and to every man who has taken part is this great contest either on land or sea.

I do not wish to criticise the very interesting statement which my right hon. Friend has given of his Department, but I want to make some suggestions with reference to the great number of buildings which we see arising all over the West-End of London, and also the large hotels and palatial residences which have been put at the disposal of the various new Departments which are being set up, so that these businesses—because they are businesses — which are being carried on by the new Government Departments may be carried on more efficiently and more economically. I would ask my right hon. Friend, who, I believe, is the head of one of the greatest commercial undertakings in the world, to give his attention to the suggestions I have to make. If he will look at the Paper issued by his Department at the end of 1916 he will find a list of different Committees, the War Committees, and Trade Committees, which have been set up in matters connected with the War during, I think, the whole length of the War. Since then a great many more have been set up, and if it is in his Department it would be very interesting to the House to have another White Paper issued giving the fresh Committees which have been set up to deal with these very important matters since the new Government came into being. Then I would ask him to look at the Return, which, I think, has been issued by him or his Department, of the temporary buildings erected or contracted for by His Majesty's Office of Works, and the premises which have been taken for these various Committees and Royal Commissions. Most of them are dealing with business. They are not carrying on the work which is usually carried on by a Government Department. The work they are doing is usually carried on by private enterprise, not only in London, but in the great ports of the country and the great business centres. It occurs to me that it would be in the interest of these various Committees and Commissions if they were brought nearer to the City of London. The City is the centre of shipping and of commerce where our business is done. When the Chancellor of the Exchequer brings out a War Loan he does not ask the City man to come to the West-End to make his investment, but he goes down to the City. But these War Committees are set up all over the West-End.

The first one, I see, is the War Trade Committee, which is set up at Storeys Gate, S.W. That is a business which is constantly in touch with the City, and people are running up and down to the War Trade Department constantly during the day. Then there is the Royal Commission on Sugar, which sits at Scotland House, S.W. Mincing Lane is the centre for sugar. It would be much better if it were brought nearer to where the article is traded in. Then I notice the Commission on Rubber and Tin is at Queen Anne's Gate—hardly a commercial district. Then the Committees and the experts who give licences and so on in connection with timber and coal are at the Sanctuary, Westminster. Then I find that another place has been taken to deal with the detention of neutral ships, at 1, Abbey Gardens, S.W., right away from the offices in the City of the people who manage and own these ships, and if you want to take out a licence for a shipowner you have to go to the Adelphi, in the theatre district, which seems rather an absurd arrangement, while if you want to import hard woods, furniture, stones, or sigars, you have got to go to 20, Carlisle Place, S. W.

I have no interest in what Government did it. This is not an attack in any way. Business men have to go from the City where their business is carried on to these offices which are scattered all over the West-End. The business man does not know at times where to find them. He goes from Carlisle Place to Abbey Gardens, and very often gives up in despair. When we think of the Food Controller we think of Smithfield or the Leadenhall Market or Mincing Lane, or one of those places where dealings in food take place; but the office of the Food Controller is set up at Grosvenor House, which is far away from the City of London, where the trade in all the articles of food controlled by the Government takes place. The Royal Commission on Wheat Supplies has its offices in Waterloo Place, far away from the Food Controller, though it deals with wheat, maize, flour, and other articles. What a great advantage it would be if anyone could organise those businesses which are so much connected and get them into one office, so that the Food Controller, the Wheat Commission, and the Sugar Commission would be all together, if not in the same building, at least quite close to one another. In the City of London people in the same business are all close together, and they must be together in the same district. The Shipping Controller has an enormous staff in another part of the West-End. Having regard to the fact that the great shipowners of the City of London now have their businesses managed in a Government office, it would be much better if the Department would come down to the City, so as to be in touch with the owners and brokers and people who understand the practical side of shipping, somewhere near the Baltic Shipping Exchange, or Lloyd's, or some district of that kind. Then there is another business which was managed at Westminster. I understood a short time ago that it had been moved to Holland House, Kensington. Perhaps my right hon. Friend will tell me if he has taken a lease of Holland House, Kensington, because that would be a very awkward place for a business man.

If the War goes on, as it seems to be going on, it may be necessary before long to control more businesses, and I would suggest to my right hon. Friend, with his great business experience and his great success in organising great industrial enterprises, that he should come and look at the City and see if it would not be more efficient and more economical to place the offices there. I do not think that he will find that the rents would be higher in the City. Perhaps the accommodation would not be so luxurious or so palatial, but most of the people who go now to these West-End controlling offices are City people, and I believe that they would carry on their work much better if they were in touch with the business men whom they are guiding and advising from day to day. I believe that there is a great deal of unnecessary work in continually rushing to and fro between the City to the West-End, which might be avoided if the right hon. Gentleman adopted some plan of this kind. It may be said that City offices are difficult to obtain. I can assure him that so much business is now being done by the Government, and also owing to military service, City offices are getting depleted very rapidly, and if he would come down to many parts of the City he would find no difficulty at all in getting offices there. I have no doubt that Government officials who, in a new City office, surrounded by a large staff of women and City clerks, would say, "We are out of touch with Government Departments. We want to be near the other Government offices." I do not think it would be beyond the power of the Postmaster-General to connect those offices up by direct telephonic communication, which is now so perfect, so that those offices will be in touch with one another. If the right hon. Gentleman is going to look out for further offices, why does he not look out for some of the black-listed houses in the City of London? There are many beautiful offices which have been shut up because the business carried on in them was carried on by enemy aliens, and I would suggest to him that he should look at the Deutscher Bank offices and see if they could not be used very conveniently for some of these Committees. Then there is the Dresdener Bank, whose premises are not being used now, and there are the Anglo-Austrian Bank, the Disconto-Gesellschaft, and many private houses, and I am sure that some of these large shipowners who have lost so many ships, and whose business is now being managed by a Government Committee, would be glad to make an arrangement for some of their offices to be used until the end of the War.

Then I notice every day when I am in the City some very palatial offices which have been put up during the War. For instance, beautiful offices are being finished in the most ornate way for the Port of London Authority. I would suggest that it is not necessary for the Port of London Authority to go into those offices during the War, and that they would be a very suitable place for the Food Controller's offices. They are beautiful large offices, and I am sure that there are many parts which he will never want, even if he has to ration us compulsorily, and the old offices of the Port of London would certainly be sufficient during the War. I feel quite sure that in the case of these great businesses which are now being carried on, and are handicapped so much by the War and by Government control, that those guiding them must be in constant touch with the men who understand them and have been carrying them on all their lives. I trust that the right hon. Gentleman will consider these proposals and use his influence with the other members of the Government, and the Chairman of these Committees and Royal Commissions appointed by His Majesty's Government, to try to bring them nearer to together, and if he cannot bring them to the City, let him bring them half-way to the City. The Board of Trade has offices in Kingsway, and the War Office has some of its Committees meeting there. It has, I think, Empire House and India House. They are splendid offices and half-way to the City, which is a more convenient arrangement than having offices in the West-End. The first thing which the Government did after the War broke out was to take over the insurance of vessels against war risks. Within two days offices were opened at Cannon Street Hotel, and they were moved to suitable offices at Holborn Street, and another Government Department has offices in Winchester House, so that this will not be a new precedent, but it will be a great service to the State at the present time during this great crisis if my right hon. Friend can induce his Friends to carry out the suggestions which I have made.

I desire in a single word to associate myself with my right hon. Friend who has just sat down. He complains that some of the offices are some distance away, when really they ought to be in what is called the business area. I imagine, however, that the explanation is that these offices were taken rather in a hurry at the commencement of the War, and probably the Government have taken leases or made arrangements until the end of the War and find some difficulty probably in making a change, which in itself is eminently desirable. My right hon. Friend is not responsible for most of the complaints which have been made. Grosvenor House is, I think, fairly central for the business that has to be dealt with, and which he is so active in carrying out. I confess that I was a little puzzled to know why we had this Vote to-day. I expected to see an excited House and Members anxious to pay compliments to my right hon. Friend and ask for information, but, on the contrary, we have so much confidence in my right hon. Friend that no one has any serious criticism to make. The reason put forward, I understand, for taking this Vote to-day is that my Noble Friend the Patronage Secretary is so proud of the agricultural experiments of my right hon. Friend that he was anxious to have a discussion on agriculture. My right hon. Friend, in the course of his interesting statement, referred to the number of men of military age now in his Department. I confess that it was difficult to hear exactly what the figures were. If my right hon. Friend, in the course of his reply, would tell us the exact number of men of military age now in the offices of the Board of Works I should be obliged. The Office of Works has never been one of those offices of which complaint with regard to this matter was made seriously. I remember a statement made by my right hon. Friend's predecessor in office about twelve months ago, when I think that he showed that his office was rather ahead of some of the other Departments, so far as the release of employés was concerned in regard to the demands made by the War Office. I ask, therefore, that my right hon. Friend will be good enough to give us the exact figures of the men of military age at present employed, the number he anticipates he will be able to release, and the number he proposes to retain. My right hon. Friend said something about the buildings that were taken over by his Department, and I think it would be desirable if he could give us a little more information under that head. I would like to ask him whether he is of opinion that he has got to the end of his raids on public buildings for offices under the Government. Has he now got all the accommodation which he requires, or is it likely he may have to make further demands upon hotels and other institutions? I think it would be very satisfactory to the business community generally if my right hon. Friend would give us some information on that point. I would also like to ask him what is the arrangement in regard to taking over hotels. There seems to be a misunderstanding as to the method of compensation. We have had cases in the law Courts, but up to this day there is misunderstanding as to how the compensation is to be paid in cases where hotels are commandeered. There was the famous case of De Keyser's Hotel, which, I understand, was left in a very unsatisfactory position. I think the Committee would be obliged if the right hon. Gentleman could give us any information as to the principle on which his Department proceeds in the case of taking over hotels. Is it left entirely to the Commission that was appointed some time ago, presided over by the present Chief Secretary for Ireland? Have they a final decision in the matter, and are they empowered to provide for all possible losses that may be occasioned to the proprietors in the taking over of any public institution?

I rose principally to ask my right hon. Friend if he could give us any information as to the history of the Automobile Club so far as his Department is concerned. He will remember that one fine morning it was announced that after searching London it was decided that this was the only building suitable for the purpose required by some Government Department. A second official statement was issued, in which it was stated that the matter was so pressing that there was no reason to negotiate or discuss the matter, and that the Automobile Club had to be taken over by his Department. As the club was not taken over., I should like to know which other building was taken over to provide for the necessary accommodation which was so pressing at that time. I should like him to give us the truth about the Automobile Club, and why it was to be taken one day and why so soon afterwards the right hon. Gentleman withdrew the demand which he had made upon it. I think it would have been a most suitable building for Government offices. I have always thought so, and that when we were taking over hotels and similar institutions there were strong reasons for taking over the Automobile Club. I do not attach any importance to the current rumour that a deputation of lady members of the club, the most beautiful of them, waited upon the right hon. Gentleman and induced him to alter his decision. I have never attached any importance to that rumour, although, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, it has been a common rumour. The facts are that after deciding to take over the building one week he altered his decision, and to-day the Automobile Club is practically the same as it was before the War. I understand there was some arrangement made that only people who were doing something for the War were in future to attend as members. Who is not trying to do something for the War at the present time? An hon. Member who sat near me a moment ago gives me to understand that the proceedings of the Automobile Club are practically the same as they were before the War. I think we are entitled to know why my right hon. Friend changed his opinion in regard to the matter, because it has occasioned a good deal of comment and complaint on the part of those whose buildings were taken over that my right hon. Friend made up his mind, after due deliberation, to take over this club and that through influence of some kind—it must have been influence of some kind—he changed his opinion. If it was not influence, can he tell me why he changed his mind, and that the club was allowed to go on just the same as before the War? I should like a little information, and especially a denial of the rumour, which I thought it right to mention, as to why he changed his opinion.

In regard to the National War Museum, which is one of the best things my right hon. Friend has done since he took office—I think that is the general opinion—I should like to know what steps have been taken to make this a really valuable institution. Is he securing the co-operation of museums in other parts of the country and in Scotland and Ireland? Is the War Office working with him and giving him those trophies of national interest which he desires to place in this museum? Are there any permanent salaries attached to the museum, and, if so, to what extent is remuneration being paid? I think it is a great pity that this step on the part of the First Commissioner was not taken two years ago, but it is better late than never. I think the suggestion is a good one, but it can only be made a success if he has the hearty co-operation of the public bodies concerned in carrying out his views. I hope I may have a reply on the different points I have raised.

As I happen to be a member of the Automobile Club, I may perhaps explain to the right hon. Baronet why the right hon. Gentleman changed his mind, and changed his mind very wisely. As a matter of fact the club is chiefly used, and was chiefly used before the idea occurred to my right hon. Friend to take it over, as a club for young officers staying in London for short periods of leave. They were made hon. Members at no expense to themselves. The first thing a young officer wants when he comes from the front and gets to London is a bath and a soft bed. The Automobile Club possesses perhaps the finest Turkish baths in London. When a young officer arrived at Victoria from the trenches he was able to go to the club to have a Turkish bath, a good bed and breakfast next day, at a cost of 5s. That was a very great boon to young officers.

Surely the right hon. Gentleman knew all that before he decided to take it over?

As a matter of fact myself and a few others wrote very strong and almost rude letters to the right hon. Gentleman, pointing out the good work which this club was doing, and with his strength of character and common sense he fell in with our views. The matter has been arranged in this way: The club is turned into a club for overseas officers. There is accommodation for 500 officers. They can go at once and have their bath, stay the night, and have their breakfast next morning, for 5s. I can assure the right hon. Baronet that the club is used very largely by these young officers, who might otherwise have to go to some hotel and be charged a very much higher price. So far as I am concerned, I do not use the club once in three weeks, and I do not think the majority of members and those who are not doing war work use the club at the present moment. I wish to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman in having given young officers the use of the Royal Automobile Club. There are a few questions which I should like to put to the right hon. Gentleman. I take it that we are to a certain extent discussing a Token Vote this afternoon, because when he tells us that the Office of Works are employing 2,228 men, of which only 348 are of military age, I find that there is nothing about that in the Vote itself. He told us what was a revelation to me, that the Office of Works had spent £9,000,000, under the superintendence of its own architects, in putting up factories and various other buildings up and down the country. He also told us that owing to the good work of his architects and their skill they had been able to get the cost down to a very great degree and that they had been able to reduce the minimum factor of safety in these munition works and factories. Did the Office of Works put up the factory in East London where the disastrous explosion took place? I think the right hon. Gentleman knows that his name has been mentioned in connection with that factory, and I would like an explanation on that point. The Committee does not want to have the factor of safety reduced below a safe minimum, and I want the assurance that in this case the Office of Works and the right hon. Gentleman himself had nothing to do with the erection of that particular factory.

5.0 P.M.

The right hon. Gentleman told us about the tillage operations in Richmond Park. I motored there last Sunday and saw the land being turned up. I spent my last gallon of petrol in going down to Richmond Park and I saw the operations that were going on. They looked to me very satisfactory. I do not quite understand from what the right hon. Gentleman said whether the Office of Works are going to reap the crop and sell it or whether he is going to leave it for some farmer to do. He told us that a good deal of the ploughing had been done under contract by a farmer. There is another suggestion I would like to make in furtherance of what was said by the hon. Member (Mr. Wiles), and that is, that we should make more use of some of our public buildings, especially museums, at the present time. For instance, there is the Imperial Institute. Of what use is that Institute at the present time? I have not been there during the last couple of years, but I should imagine there are specimens of pickled fish and so on, and other things, but the majority of the rooms are empty, and I think the building might be turned to some much more useful purpose if they were taken in hand. More use might be made of the Victoria Museum. This museum is not half full, and it has an enormous amount of space; moreover, the museum occupies a very good position near a Tube Railway. These are only two of the buildings which occur to my mind which might be used instead of more extensive buildings being taken over. There is another point, and that is that a great many individuals, firms, and companies have had their premises and houses taken over at great inconvenience to themselves and at very short notice, and they have not yet received any payment for the use of those buildings. I want to give one small concrete instance. There were twenty-three houses taken over in Belgrave Road, which is just off Eccleston Square, with the idea that they were to be turned into hostels for soldiers arriving at Victoria Station from the front. These houses are of a rental of about £100 a year. A friend of mine was sitting one day in her house when a gentleman came into the room and told her that he had been commissioned to say—I presume by the Office of Works—that her house had to be taken over at once for military purposes, and that she must turn out at once. She did turn out at once and got accommodation elsewhere. That was about five months ago. What happened to her happened to the occupants of all the other houses in the road. The idea was that these houses were to be turned into a series of dormitories, but it was pointed out that these houses were not at all suitable for that purpose. In not one of them was there more than one bathroom, and in some of them there was no bathroom at all. If you are going to put, say, forty men in these comparatively small houses with only one bathroom, that means great discomfort for them and the officer, for the one thing they want is a bath when they arrive from the front. Then it was pointed out that there was a difficulty in having so many different doors, there being twenty-three. One of those clever architects, I presume of the Office of Works, said that the difficulty could be easily got over by simply making a hole in the wall between the houses on the various floors, so that they could go from one end to the other of the road through the twenty-three houses. The net result has been that up to the present moment these houses have not been used at all. There they are still, twenty-three of them. The owners have been turned out and have received no rent or compensation, and there the houses stand still empty. I understand now that half of them have been turned over to the Salvation Army and the other half to the Church Army, to be turned by these two great bodies into hostels for soldiers arriving from overseas. There is a definite point of a certain amount of waste of public money and delay in necessary work. The houses must have been wanted at once if they were taken over, and if that is the case they ought to be adapted to make them useful for the purpose for which they are intended. I do not want to labour a small point of that sort, but simply to point it out as something done by the Office of Works which did not run quite so smoothly as the various things about which the right hon. Gentleman has told us. I should like to congratulate him on his statement, and I trust that he will be grateful to me for my small defence of his action in the matter of the Royal Automobile Club.

I was going to ask the right hon. Gentleman who was about to reply to refer to two matters on which I think information would be generally interesting. I hope, if he is able to hear me—as I see there are two hon. Members both desiring to distract his attention at the present moment—that he will tell me, in the first place, how Westminster Hall is going on?

That must arise on its own Vote. We can only discuss on this Vote of the Office of Works either matters which are common to all the Votes in Class I. under the right hon. Gentleman's control or matters such as he referred to in his opening statement, which do not arise on any of them, but are executive matters falling within the duties of his Department. All matters arising on individual Votes we must reserve until we arrive at those Votes.

I was afraid I should be out of order, and I would like to call the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Lord E. Talbot) to the fact that this is an interesting matter which possibly he may put down upon the Votes on some other occasion. The other point is one which I am sure I shall be justified in bringing up. The right hon. Gentleman appointed a Committee of two Welshmen recently to inquire into the use made of Government offices.

One is named Powell, a Welsh name, and the other is an architect who comes from Swansea.

At any rate he comes from Swansea. I am very proud to acknowledge that I have Welsh blood in my veins, and most gentlemen are not ashamed to be designated a Welshman any more than is the right hon. Gentleman of being called a Welsh Member. These two gentlemen have been appointed to inquire into the use made of Government offices. I understand that they have submitted several Reports to the right hon. Gentleman. Those Reports deal with all those new buildings that are to be put up, with the hotels and clubs that have been commandeered, and they tell, so I am given to understand, the nature of the use made of those buildings, whether they are well used or badly used, which officials in which Departments are using them well and which are using them badly. It is perfectly obvious to anybody who has gone into these places with their eyes open that some of these buildings are very much better utilised than others. In some there is any amount of waste space and confusion, and in others you go into you think that this might have been a Government office built for the purpose, for it is being utilised in the best possible way. I am told—I may be wrong—that the Ministry of Munitions is making shameful, wasteful, use of their offices. One or two of the other offices that have taken over large buildings are doing their work admirably in those buildings, economising space and having their work got through in much better order. I am told in this respect that the War Office has shown great organising powers. I may be wrong, or I may be right; I am more inclined to think that I am right, but why will not the right hon. Gentleman give any information on these Reports? I have asked one or two questions as to whether he will give any information he has obtained from these expert gentlemen as to the use that is being made of these Government offices. We are spending hundreds of thousands upon them, and the right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well which are being well used and which are being badly used. I say that the House of Commons has a perfect right, if it controls this vast expenditure, to be told where good use is being made of it and where there is wasteful use. The right hon. Gentleman, though he belongs to a Government that tells us that they are going to give us all the facts and hold back nothing, holds back everything connected with these two Gentlemen's Reports. I am very sorry that he has fallen into bad ways or bad company, and I hope that this afternoon he will give us some information to reassure the public and the House of Commons that all the money they give so freely is not being wastefully employed. Do let him, in his reply to this Debate, refer to this matter, and tell us something worth hearing.

I think a great many Members here are rather surprised that more are not interested in this very important Vote. The general public outside has been very concerned by the visible signs of extravagance, not only under this Government, but under its two predecessors as well, in the large expenditure on public buildings, if in nothing else. Nothing has shocked business men more than to see the very extravagant way in which the Government carry out work entrusted to their care it reference to office accommodation. There is a very large public opinion about it, and it is surprising to me that more Members are not present, and that there is not more criticism of this particular Department. I think, perhaps, the reason is that the House is conscious that really the Office of Works has not very much power in these matters. After all, it is the handmaid of the other Government Departments. It has to supply the demand of the other spending Departments, and of those various Ministers responsible for carrying out the government of the country. That being so, I suppose it cannot very well decide the amount of office accommodation that is to be supplied. All it can do at the most is to some extent to control. Nothing has impressed me more as a business man than to see, not so much what is going on in the hotels and private houses taken over, and which cannot be adapted suitably for business purposes, but the kind of building being constructed by the Office of Works. It is building now, and has been for the last twelve months, a large number of wooden and temporary buildings. These buildings can be designed and constructed to meet the requirements of Government Departments. Anybody who is accustomed to modern business methods knows that the most efficient way to get clerical and typewriting work done is by large floor space, with large staffs under one roof and under individual supervision. That is the policy adopted in constructing buildings for insurance companies, banks, and all large organising concerns; but the buildings that the Office of Works has put up seem to be constructed on one particular pattern—on the pattern followed in the ordinary Government Departments. The buildings are divided up into hundreds of small rooms, each self-contained, each watertight, each working on its own, taking up a large amount of space, and, in my opinion, entirely going against all modern experience and modern business methods.

I venture to suggest that the First Commissioner of Works, with his large business experience, should try to bring a few new ideas into these Government Departments, and to see that any new Government buildings put up are constructed on modern lines. I was very glad to hear the suggestions of the right hon. Member for South Islington (Mr. Wiles). He rightly pointed out that certain great businesses which the Government is now controlling are in the City, but there are other great businesses not centred in London at all, but in the provinces. If you are really going to have efficient, speedy work, and to bring the Government Department into direct contact with the businesses concerned, that Government Department should be centralised, not necessarily in London, but in the area directly concerned. For instance, the woollen control should go to Yorkshire, and so on. Another advantage in that policy from the point of view of the Board of Works, is that there would be an economy in rent and in the cost of building. There are large buildings available in the provinces where staffs could be more easily engaged, and more economically housed. Another thing I would impress upon the right hon. Gentleman is the very strong public opinion about this new construction of new buildings put up, temporary buildings of wood and other material, which have occupied a large amount of labour, and which has caused labour to be withdrawn from productive purposes and from industries already seriously short of labour, and which, from the point of view of the nation, has been an absolute waste of money. At the end of the War there will be nothing to show. At the end of two or three years they will not be fit for very much. They will have to be pulled down and removed, because they have been largely built on open spaces, which the Government have guaranteed to restore to the nation. In consequence, the buildings will have to be removed and the materials sold, either as old iron or firewood. I hope, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman will avoid as far as possible the construction of these new buildings, and that he will make use as much as he can of existing office accommodation.

I made a suggestion some time ago that the new County Hall, which is very nearly completed, might properly be utilised for Government offices, and that either a temporary roof should be put on or that the premises should be completed enough, at any rate, to be used for office accommodation. The County Hall will have to be finished, and the money spent on that building would not be dead capital, but would be usefully spent; it would not have to be paid back to the Government, and would be compensation to the ratepayers of London. To follow the suggestion of the hon. Member for Somerset, I think it would be well if we heard something about the Commission or Committee of Inquiry which the right hon. Gentleman directed to be appointed, because there would appear to be a very grave suspicion that Government officials are provided with far more luxurious quarters than private business firms. A man in a private concern may share an office with a dozen or twenty other men, but when a man becomes a Government official he seems to consider that he is entitled to a separate apartment with every luxury and comfort. A clear statement on this subject from the Minister would relieve the public mind, and remove the impression that there is a large amount of waste in Government Departments. It may be that the right hon. Gentleman has a clear answer; still, if the Board of Works finds it difficult to stop waste in connection with these buildings, then I suggest that the Government should set up some Department, or put it straight into the hands of the Treasury, to put a stop to anything which may be considered wasteful, and to give protection from undue commandeering of buildings. I think it would be a great pity if this discussion closed without some reference to the work of the Department over which the right hon. Gentleman presides. He referred to some of its activities, and I could not help noticing in the Estimates that there have been considerable reductions in various parts of the work of the Department. Considerable economies have been effected. But there is one subject engaging public attention considerably, in regard to which I am sure the country would like to receive some assurance—I refer to the serious illness at Osborne. Public opinion is rather inclined to attribute that illness—in all probability wrongly—to the unsuitability of Osborne for the purpose for which it is used.

If that is the subject of a separate Vote, I can deal with it later; but there is another question, that about the grille?

I should like to reply to the observations of hon. Members on the various points raised. We have had some very interesting remarks from the hon. Member for Islington, and I shall certainly take note of his suggestions, some of which I may say had already occurred to me. Of course, the difficulty is that Ministers at the head of Departments, the head of the War Office, the head of the Munitions Department, and others are constantly being called upon to attend the War Cabinet; they have to be ready at any moment, and if their offices were situated somewhere in the City instead of in the West End, it would not be convenient for them. A great many of the Departments, however, have much closer connection with the City than is realised. Still, so far as I am concerned, if I can assist in adopting some of the suggestions which have been made I shall be glad to do so. We cannot always obtain the City accommodation on the scale we require.

I think it will be found that the Department of Shipping Control and the War Trade Department, and other Commissions, have a staff of only commercial size, from 50 to 150?

The hon. Member knows as well as I do the difficulties which surround this question when setting up new Departments. A question was also addressed to me by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel) as to the number of eligible men in the Office of Works. I made a state- ment on that subject in my opening remarks. At present there are 2,925 employés in the Office of Works, of whom 2,228 are men, and no less than 956 have joined His Majesty's Forces. The total number of unmarried men of military age of all classifications eligible for the Service is 123, and the total number of married men of all classes eligible for military service is 225. The War Office recently made an examination of 179 men of military age, and decided to release 76. From my personal knowledge I can state that the men who have been exempted are engineers, architects, skilled workmen, and men of that kind, and everybody will recognise that we ought not to lose their services in the work that they are doing now or substitute for them men who are unable to do their work. Reference has been made to the basis on which buildings and hotels have been commandeered. The basis we have adopted in ascertaining the cost has, on the whole, been generally accepted. It has involved a great deal of work and investigation, and we have endeavoured as far as possible to arrive at some form of reasonable settlement with the owners of these buildings and with the hotel companies. They present such claims as they consider to be reasonable, and we have, for our purposes, a most competent accountant who assists us in these matters, and I may say he has been very successful in obtaining reductions of the claims originally presented and brought them down to a reasonable figure. On the whole, that work has succeeded. My hon. Friend referred to the Automobile Club. The Committee of Accommodation required a building that would be suitable for the purposes they had in view, and they decided upon the Automobile Club, and it was commandeered at that time. After that was done very strong representations were made to us—first, by the committee of the club, and secondly, by the General Officer Commanding the troops in London, who pointed out that he was extremely anxious to acquire premises in which the overseas officers coming from the front could be housed, looked after, and billeted, on their return, in comfort and decency. He brought to our knowledge certain circumstances, and it was deplorable to learn that some of these officers, coming back from the front, had to spend their nights on the floor of the Young Men's Christian Association hut at the railway station, because there was no proper accommodation for them, nor had anyone taken the trouble to organise proper accommodation. We were asked to release our requisition on certain terms, and, in view of the gravity of the public necessity, we did so, however reluctantly, and we had to take another building, Bridgwater House, where we have our present accommodation.

My hon. Friend will be interested to know that, besides the National Museum, there is a Local Museums Association, in which a large portion of the population are exceedingly interested. I have been in touch with those organisations, and I have undertaken to address a meeting at the Mansion House this month on the subject of the work of the Local Museums' Association, of which I fully realise the importance, and they work in hearty co-operation with the National Museum. The hon. and gallant Member for Enfield referred to certain buildings which have been commandeered by the War Office. The Office of Works were not consulted about them in any way, nor had they anything to do with that matter. I would like to point out that buildings commandeered by the War Office do not in any way come under the jurisdiction of the Office of Works, and therefore the Office of Works cannot be blamed for the commandeering of buildings by a Department over which it has no control. In regard to the question of Richmond Park, I think I made it clear that the whole of the agricultural operations, including the stacking of the oats, have been let out on a contract rate paid to a practical farmer, who is undertaking the whole work for what I consider a very reasonable amount. The Office of Works supplies the seeds and necessary manure and such labour as can be spared, and we get the profits. The hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King) referred to the Committee of Accommodation, and asked why the inspectors' reports had not been published. I pointed out, in my opening statement, that those reports had not been drawn up in a form for publication, and were to guide the Committee, and were very valuable for that purpose and were transmitted to the heads of various Departments.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any action has been taken on any of their recommendations?

Certainly, action was taken on the recommendations. If the Committee of Accommodation got to know that certain offices were not being utilised as much as they might be, and if there was a request from the Department concerned for more accommodation, they naturally informed that Department that they must use their existing accommodation better. The hon. Member for Market Harboro' (Mr. P. A. Harris) referred to the question of the new County Hall. I had that matter very carefully investigated by one of the architects and chief engineers. Even temporarily to complete it would be of very great assistance, but the amount of time and material required to finish it even in a temporary way would be far beyond any expenditure we could possibly sanction. The hon. Member also referred to the erection of temporary buildings. It may be some satisfaction to him to know that since I had the opportunity I discountenanced very strongly the erection of temporary buildings. We have neither the time nor labour in order to go on putting up those establishments.

Question put, and agreed to.

OSBORNE.—Class I

Resolved, "That a sum not exceeding £3,600, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for Expenditure in respect of Osborne."—[NOTE.—£7,000 has been voted on account.]

May I on this Vote ask for some explanation about Osborne and its suitability. There have been recently serious epidemics at Osborne, and the opinion of many people is—I think probably a wrong opinion—that those are largely due to—

On a point of Order. The Office of Works has nothing to do with the Naval College at Osborne. All we have to do with is the residence of the late Queen Victoria, now being used as a convalescent home for officers.

Question put, and agreed to.

ROYAL PARKS AND PLEASURE GARDENS.—Class I

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £55,700, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for Expenditure in respect of the Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens."—[NOTE.—£42,000 has been. voted on account.]

HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS.—Class I

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £29,800, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for Expenditure in respect of Houses of Parliament Buildings."—[NOTE.—£18,000 has been voted on account.]

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he can see his way to carry out a reform in this building which has been advocated by many people for many, many years, and that is the removal of the grille in front of the Ladies' Gallery? This a very old question, and has been dealt with by a series of First Commissioners of Works, and they have, as a rule, been adamantine in their refusal to carry out this alteration. I have often heard questions asked on this subject, and I came to the conclusion that the grille would be removed by nothing short of an earthquake or a war. We have the latter, and I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he could not take advantage of this opportunity to carry out what many people consider would be a real and beneficial reform. One often asks, What is the grille there for? and I do not think any Member knows. I have made some investigations into its origin, and I confess it is almost impossible to find out what purpose the grille was supposed to serve. For many hundreds of years the House of Commons was visited by ladies. During the sixteenth and seventeenth and eighteenth centuries they used to come down to the Debates of the House of Commons, and places were assigned to them. On great occasions, we read in the records of the House, that they came down in such numbers that they poured outside their own seats allotted to them into the seats allotted to Members of Parliament. On the 2nd of February, 1778, there was a great political debate which so attracted the ladies that they came down and actually took the seats of the Members of Parliament. That offended the equani- mity of a certain naval captain, who drew attention to the fact that there were strangers in the House. An Order was made for the exclusion of all strangers. The officials had great difficulty in executing that Order. The ladies in question refused to move, and for two hours, I believe, the House had to suspend its deliberations whilst the ladies protested that they were entitled to be there. The result of that was that they were excluded absolutely, and for about fifty years no woman was allowed to come and listen to the Debates in the House. I believe that Mrs. Sheridan had to appear dressed in man's clothes in order to come down and hear the great speech by her husband.

That exclusion went on for about fifty years, until about the beginning of the nineteenth century an arrangement was made whereby certain ladies were allowed to come in and take places on the roof of the House and peer down through two ventilating shafts. That particular arrangement, which has been described by Miss Edgworth, was very uncomfortable for the ladies. They could only see the tops of the hats of Members who sat below, and hear very little of what was going on. Fortunately for them, the fire took place, and in 1835 the Houses of Parliament were burnt down, and by that fire they were relieved from their purgatory. The Committee that considered the rebuilding of the Houses of Parliament took into consideration, and a Special Committee was appointed for the purpose, the accommodation which was to be given to ladies who wished to attend the Debates, and a plan is shown. It was proposed to allocate to them a quarter of the Strangers' Gallery, which was at the opposite end to that in which it is now placed. That quarter was to be brought down so low that it would be next to the seats allotted to Members in the side galleries. The Committee recommended that that course should be taken, and that the ladies' portion should be divided from the other portion of the Strangers' Gallery by a partition reaching five feet up from the floor, and also by a grille to be put in front of it. It is difficult to know what the object of the grille was to be. I notice in the evidence which was given before the Select Committee a question was put to the architect as to the amount of space between the front of the Ladies' Gallery and the seats occupied by the Members of Parliament. He answered that there would be about five or six feet, and the Chairman asked, "Would that prevent talking?" The reply was, "I think it will prevent conversation." I can only surmise that the reason why the grille was to be put there was in order to prevent conversation between the ladies in the Gallery and Members of Parliament seated in the side galleries. After that the whole thing was changed, and the Ladies' Gallery was not brought down to where Members sit, but was put where it is now, behind the Reporters' Gallery. Although that change was made, the recommendation of the Committee held good that there should be a grille in front of it. That is on the Report of the Committee of 1835.

What useful purpose does the grille serve? It is very uncomfortable for the ladies who use the Gallery. Every lady that I have ever met who has been in the Gallery says that the existence of that grille makes it very difficult to see and very uncomfortable. If you go up there and sit in the back seats or in the second row you will find that the grille is a very great impediment to sight. In the front seat it is not so great, because, of course, the interstices of the grille are fairly large. I cannot see what reason there can be for maintaining this particular division between the Ladies' Gallery and the rest of the House. It is not done in the House of Lords, where the ladies sit, as we know, in the open. Neither are the Lords afraid of seeing the ladies, nor are the ladies afraid of seeing the Lords; but here in the House of Commons we are under the idea that either the ladies are afraid of our looking at them, or we are afraid of their looking at us. I cannot help thinking that when, if we do, we have to solicit the votes of the ladies themselves, we shall have a very great difficulty in justifying a system which seems to treat them either as wild beasts or as ladies of the harem. There is no justification for it. It would be of great advantage to these ladies who use the Gallery not to have it, and I submit to the right hon. Gentleman that he might really carry out this small reform at the present moment with great advantage to everybody concerned.

I would like to add a word of support to the suggestion which has been addressed to the right hon. Gentleman by the last speaker. This question of the grille has been raised before in this House, and I have never quite understood why it has not been satisfactorily settled once and for all. The past Commissioners have not been very sympathetic, and they have generally had the eagle eye of the right hon. Baronet representing the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) facing them, and no doubt they have been afraid of that; but I trust that now we have changed in a good many things, we might really hope for a little progress regarding this matter. The grille is one of those things which can really be called "early Victorian," and we are getting rid of many of those things; and the grille might be one of those which the right hon. Gentleman himself might get rid of. The seclusion of women and the division of men from women in churches and public gatherings has entirely ceased in this country for many years, and it seems to me that in taking away the grille the right hon. Gentleman will only be taking one step, and that before very long he will be asked to take the further and very proper step of not putting the sexes in different parts of the House when they come as auditors of our proceedings. Why they should be separated Heaven only knows! I do not think that any satisfactory reason can be given for it, and there are almost innumerable reasons against it. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Dickinson) has drawn attention to the fact that in the House of Lords they manage things better, and let ladies sit in side galleries during Debates, while, of course, at the opening of Parliament they have the advantage of actually sitting in the seats of Members; and if the danger of interruption of Debates from the presence of women is a real one, I should have thought the House of Lords would have discovered that long ago, and would not have allowed their customs in this respect to have continued. As a matter of fact, women sit in the House of Lords both in the galleries and on the floor of the House, and there has never been the smallest objection raised to it by anybody. It seems to me that it would be a graceful moment to do this now rather than later. The House of Commons has already shown, by its Vote the other day, and certainly by the speeches made in all parts of the House, that it intends when the franchise proposals of the Government come forward to deal with the question of woman suffrage. It seems to me that it would be a far more satisfactory thing, and much more to the credit of this House of Commons elected by men, if they would make the change in the matter of the grille while they are elected by men voters rather than later on, when all Parliamentary candidates are seeking the franchise of both men and women. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will find, if he makes inquiries, that it is the general wish of the great majority of Members that the grille should be removed, and then I hope that he will carry out that wish.

The reason why I stand up is to confirm from my experience what the hon. Gentleman who last spoke said with regard to the view of Members of this House. There is a very general wish, and there has been for many years, that the grille should be removed, and but for the unfortunate incident in 1906, when a suffragette chained herself to the grille, I believe it would long ago have been removed. Personally, I always thought that that was an additional reason why the grille should have been removed, because if it had not been there that little incident could never have happened. We are all very thankful for the eloquent speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Dickinson). I have never been able to understand why women are so anxious to come down to hear speeches in the House of Commons. I consider it to be a compliment that they, who are the natural orators, should come down to hear the tongue-tied speakers in the House of Commons. In 1867 Mr. Robert Lowe, afterwards Lord Sherbrooke, after the extension of the franchise had been passed, in spite of his exertions to the contrary, said, "Let us now educate our masters." We are told that soon we shall be ruled by women, and my suggestion to the right hon. Gentleman is, therefore, "Let us see our rulers."

I rise to deal with another point, but I should like first to associate myself with the remarks made by the preceding speakers with regard to the removal of the grille. It seems to me that this matter ought to have been dealt with long ago. We have really asked the women of this country to submit to what can only be characterised as semi-barbarous treatment, and, indeed, as an insult to their sex, and it is time that we should realise that these women, whom many of us are looking forward to welcoming as voters at the poll, should have full and comfortable opportunity of attending the Debates here without being subjected to the discomfort under which they at present labour. I should like to point out that so far as any objections could be stated to the removal of the grille on account of some militant activities of women in the earlier stages, these have disappeared; but in any case I am not at all sure that we have not always been more subject to demonstrations from the other portions of the gallery, and I think that the right hon. Gentleman might keep this in view, that if he is going to remove the grille he might also consider whether the ladies could be allowed to take their seats in the other gallery as well. Many Members who have had the privilege of introducing ladies to the Ladies' Gallery will agree that it is very inconvenient that they should have to sit in a different part of the House, and there is no reason why they should not sit alongside of their relatives who come to this House, and I hope that that suggestion may be kept in view, and that the right hon. Gentleman will take into account the very strong feeling which I believe exists in this House in favour of removing this disability.

The point to which I really desire to draw special attention is one affecting Scottish interests in this House. It arises in connection with the accommodation provided for the Scottish Law Officers of the Crown. The right hon. Gentleman is no doubt aware that the Solicitor-General for Scotland has always been in the habit of enjoying the privilege of a separate room here, and the hon. Member for Inverness-shire (Mr. Morison), who now holds that important office, and who is a member of the Government, I understand is not at present in possession of a room within the precincts of the House. Previously the Solicitor-General was in possession of a very good room indeed, which was used for some time, I think, by the Secretary for Scotland under the late Government, and at the present time I think that that room is occupied by the Lord Advocate for Scotland, who is, of course, entitled to one of the best rooms available. Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to keep in view the fact that the Law Officers of the Crown representing England, Scotland, and Ire- land ought to be in the same position in regard to rooms in this House, but while these other gentlemen have already been provided for, it appears that no proper provision has yet been made for the Solicitor-General for Scotland.

6.0 P.M.

I desire to support the views which have been expressed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Pancras with regard to the Ladies' Gallery and the removal of the grille. No one can understand why that grille should exist at the present day, why it was originally put there, or why it now continues. I have been told that the fear is that if the grille were removed ladies would appear in the House dressed in the height of fashion, and that ladies' fashion papers would describe the hats and gear generally of these ladies, and that that is an objection to the removal of the grille. I do not know whether there is any basis of fact in that explanation of the situation, but whether it be so or not, certainly I take the view that the grille is a relic of the past, and that it ought at once to be removed. I would support my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Lanark (Mr. D. Millar) in his desire to have the Scottish Law Officers of the Crown satisfactorily housed in this building. Is there any reason on the part of the right hon. Gentleman why he should give less substantial accommodation to a Scottish Solicitor-General than to the English and Irish Solicitors-General? I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman has a desire to minimise the importance of Scotland, but, if he has, the sooner we let him know that we exist in this House the better. The points to which I wish to call attention are with reference to the expenditure of the Department of the right hon. Gentleman on two items connected with these buildings. The first is the extraordinary expenditure in connection with the roof of Westminster Hall. It must be costing hundreds of thousands of pounds to repair that roof. It has been going on since pre-war times, and everyone who passes there clearly sees that the expense of these repairs must be enormous, having regard to the scaffolding, etc., which is practically permanent, and the length of time over which these expenses have been spread. There can, of course, be no contract price for such repairs as are being done there, and the question which arises to the mind of any ordinary observer is, Is the roof worth it? Is the old roof, which has been there for 500 years, worth the expense which is being incurred? In my humble judgment it is not. If the right hon. Gentleman or his predecessors or the permanent officials of the department had taken the correct view of the situation I think, having found out the condition of that roof, they would not have thought it necessary to have spent such an enormous sum on its repair. I should like the right hon. Gentleman to tell the Committee what, up till now, has been spent on the repair of the roof, and whether it is a quarter, or a third, or a half of the required expenditure? The other expenditure to which I desire to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman is that connected with the new dining room., erected downstairs on the Terrace level, I think, in the time of his predecessor. The cost of that dining room, which was absolutely uncalled for, was, I believe, £7,000 or £8,000. The Kitchen Committee, which was supposed to take over the catering for that dining room when it was so utilised, was never consulted in any shape or form, and when it was finished and offered to the Kitchen Committee, I understand that that Committee absolutely refused to have anything to do with it. Since then, up to a quite recent date, the room has been entirely closed and unutilised. It was a first-class room when it was built at tremendous expense. It lay empty for years. Recently it has actually been built up, partitions having been put up the length and breadth of it, and it has been divided into private rooms for various members of the Government.

The right hon. Gentleman, as has been pointed out to-day, is the manager or the directing mind of a very large mercantile concern in this country. I wonder what he would do with servants in his employment who acted in this fashion and in connection with works with which he had to deal? I think there would be some dismissals. I would like to ask who was to blame? The right hon. Gentleman and his predecessors are transient and pass away. If a permanent official was responsible we ought to know who is the the individual. Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us, and tell us what has been done to the gentleman responsible for this expenditure? Has that individual's salary been advanced? Has he been made a peer? Has he been advanced to a higher level? But to put it seriously, I should like to know whether any blame has been put upon his shoulders with a view to preventing him in future from adopting a similar course. This is a matter that requires the attention of the open and well-trained mercantile mind of the right hon. Gentleman. Certainly I for one do not think that the country has got value for its money in either of these transactions, and I hope to see that the position of affairs is rectified in such a way that due economy in connection with the roof may be exercised, and in future such actions may not be permitted by his Department.

In relation to the question of the grille, I do not know if this is a very appropriate time to raise it. But as it has been raised now, I should like to add a few sentences to encourage the right hon. gentleman to take his courage in both hands. If he does act, I do not think that anbody will consider that he has done wrong, or that there will be the faintest protest. I think the right hon. Gentleman ought to be encouraged by what has happened to-day. The question has been raised in a House, certainly not very full; still, there does not seem to be any voice of protest raised, and I cannot but think that those who have spoken represent the general opinion. The grille is there. We do not know why it persists, except by force of its own inertia. If the right hon. Gentleman who occupies the present post of First Commissioner chooses to bring it to an end, under all the circumstances I do not think it will require a very great effort to carry through the change. There are some points of practical inconvenience. It is not merely that you cannot hear and see with tolerable comfort, but the air is very bad up there, and it is exceedingly difficult to secure anything like decent ventilation. I think, in any case, possibly because the Gallery is high, that you are bound to have bad air, but certainly the absence of any proper means of ventilation at the present time is noticeable, when the House has been sitting for some time, by anybody who has been up there.

Lately I have taken a good many Indian officers over the House of Commons. have never failed to point out to them that here in the House of Commons we follow customs which are quite familiar to them, and we keep our women behind a purdah or curtain, similar to that behind which a good many Indian women have to spend a good part of their existence. They are rather pleased to see illustration of this in our advanced community. It brings home on the one hand the persistence of this ancient custom, and it rather betokens an Oriental atmosphere. I confess that the matter is not one of which I hold a very strong opinion, but as the right hon. Gentleman may be expected to view this matter with a sympathetic eye I should like to encourage him, and to assure him that I think a great number of people would be rather glad to see this out of the way. I suggest that this is rather a good opportunity of doing the work.

I would add my voice to those already raised on behalf of the removal of what I think every Member must feel to be a very discreditable anachronism. I very much hope that the First Commissioner may see his way to remove the grille. Its origin is due to a somewhat ridiculous scandal in the eighteenth century when a well-known beauty of the time insisted on keeping her place on the floor of the House, to which she had been admitted. I do not think there is any danger of an incident like that being repeated. Everyone who has had friends in the Ladies' Gallery must know the inconvenience of the grille to those who wish to hear the Debates properly. They must also be aware that many women feel that its presence, and all that it raises, are constantly offering an indignity to the whole sex. It is an indignity unworthy of the democracy of the present day. It is certainly unworthy of the House of Commons which we hope may be elected under the proposals that the Government have in contemplation. I hope the First Commissioner of Works may see his way to make his tenure of office memorable by removing this obstruction.

The right hon. Gentleman may be inclined to give way, but I think what we have to consider is not so much the grille which obstructs, but the stone mullions. I do not know that the grille is really responsible for all the inconveniences stated, and I do not know that its removal would really meet the case of the hon. Gentleman who has spoken in favour of it. I doubt very much whether it would be practicable to remove the stone mullions in the Gallery which is the main obstruction.

I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not decide a question of this importance on the spur of the moment. It is a question which has been agitated almost as far as the memory of man goes back; certainly it goes as far back as my memory in relation to the House of Commons. It was one of the first questions discussed when I came here, as to whether we should or should not have a grille behind which ladies could sit. As to whether it should or should not be abolished, I do not for the moment express a decided opinion. One's opinions are unsettled at present upon many subjects. I am not at all sure that one's opinion of the grille may not be somewhat unsettled. If we are to come to a decision I should suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that there should be a Motion about it, and, if possible, on an occasion when the House is a great deal fuller than now. No one anticipated such a question being raised, and we ought to know when this matter is coming on. Proper notice that the question is to be threshed out and decided by the House should be given.

I would warn the right hon. Gentleman lest impulsiveness for reform on his part should lead him into any any rash course.

To deal first with the remarks made by the hon. Member for the College Division of Glasgow, it was, I must confess, an amazement to me to note the way that the subject of the extremely clever work of restoration carried on in the finest roof in the world, was looked at by him. I should have thought that of all the subjects on the Estimates that was one against which never a dissentient voice would have been raised. The amount of money which has been spent is considerably less than £100,000. As a matter of fact, I think something like £20,000 has been spent on it. Double the amount, between £40,000 and £50,000, would be a very small price to pay for restoring the roof in a manner which will be worthy of the place, for it is almost impossible to find such a wonderful example of Early English architecture in the world.

The unrestored part has all been treated in such a way that the beetles which caused the ravages of the past will, we have reasonable hope to believe, cease to exist. In regard to the additional dining-room, I think the hon. Member made a very unjustifiable attack on the officials of the Department. He wanted to know what official was responsible. No official was responsible for the building. The person responsible was the Minister of the Crown. The remarks of the hon. Gentleman in this connection were unjustified. Whether or not it is a wise expenditure of money it is not for me to say. The House of Commons sanctioned it and passed it.

It is not on the Estimates now. It was on the Estimate about two years ago.

I come to the question of the grille. This matter is rather a difficult one to decide. Apparently I can find no measure of procedure by which the House of Commons can express its opinion on this matter except on these Estimates. Technically, I understand that I have the authority to remove the grille on my own action. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Yes, certainly that seems to be the case. The statement has been made that the matter has been often discussed, but I find, on looking over the records, that is not the case. The only occasion I can find in which a Motion has ever been made was by a Mr. Herbert in 1869. It has been raised since then by question and answer, and once in a most inconclusive way on the Estimates. Although this Debate has not been attended by a very large number of Members, an overwhelming opinion has been expressed in favour of removing the grille, and I will endeavour to get authority to act. I do not think the hon. and learned Member for York (Mr. Butcher) will expect the Leader of the House to give a day for the subject, and it is not the fault of those in favour of removing the grille if those against it do not attend on the only occasion of the whole year in which it can be discussed.

I suppose the only form of Motion would be a reduction of my salary, and if notice had been given of that hon. Members would not be more aware that this question was going to be raised than they are now. I am sure we cannot adopt the doctrine that Ministers are not to act because Members do not attend, and, after the Debate to-day, I certainly intend to take action. Much would depend on a clear expression of opinion.

May I ask one question? I know there is no money to spare this year, but I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to take into consideration the question of providing a lift on the western side of the House. There is a very good system of lifts on the other side of the House, but nothing on that. The last representative of the Office of Works, if I remember aright, said there was no money, and that he could not help in any way, but he was a young and sprightly man, who went up three steps at a time, and had little commiseration for elderly Members of the House who suffer from lumbago and that sort of thing, and cannot run up the steps three at a time. Might I suggest whether the right hon. Gentleman could give us a lift in the old Members' staircase or somewhere there. I think a lift could be very easily put there, and without any great expenditure of money. I would, therefore, ask the right hon. Gentleman to take that into consideration, and see whether, when money is available, he could not give us such a lift.

Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to give me a reply on the point raised by myself, as well as by the hon. Member for Glasgow? May I also ask, in connection with the accommodation which could be provided for the Solicitor-General for Scotland, whether it is the case that the only room so far suggested as suitable for him is the retiring room at the Members' private entrance, which is used as a smoking room for policemen?

I should like to take the liberty of asking where the matter stands with regard to the grille. As I understand, the right hon. Gentleman is going to consider the Debate that has taken place to-day, and possibly at a later date we shall have an opportunity of a clearer issue on the matter. Whatever the views may be with regard to it, I am sure he would only wish to carry out the views of the House generally, and I would ask him, therefore, to consider the advisability of having the matter discussed at a later date. Possibly he will consult the Leader of the House?

Of course, I pointed out I was in a very difficult position in this matter if, when it is discussed on the only opportunity it can be discussed, the House is not so full that one can feel with certainty one is acting according to the desire of the House as a whole. As I do not see any opportunity of any discussion arising at an early date, the only idea that has occurred to me is to take in some way a ballot of the opinion of the House.

Naturally, I do not want to do anything that runs counter to the feeling of a large number of Members with such little notice. With regard to the question of accommodation of the Solicitor-General for Scotland, I do not quite know why my hon. Friend raised that point. The Solicitor-General for Scotland has got a room, No. 48, which was occupied formerly by the Leader of the Welsh party. It is a very nice room, and I have often been in it myself. If it is not as good a room as I would have liked to offer him, it was the best room I could give him under the extremely difficult circumstances in which I was placed. Enormous pressure has been put on the accommodation of this House by the creation of a large number of new Ministers and new Sub-Ministers. The Solicitor-General for Scotland was not in the House of Commons when the general allocation of rooms for Ministers was made, and I had no intimation that he was going to be in the House of Commons. All I could do was to give him the best accommodation at my disposal. With regard to the lift, I will have that question looked into, and see whether anything can be done.

I am very glad to hear from the right hon. Gentleman that he is going to take steps to ascertain in some way the opinion of the House before making this structural alteration in regard to the grille, because it is not merely a structural alteration. It implies something more, and I do not think it would be right—and I am glad the right hon. Gentleman realises it—upon his own mere motion, without having ascertained the opinion of Members in any shape or form, to take action. I am very glad, therefore, to hear that he will ascertain the opinion of Members in some form or other, and possibly by ballot would be as good as any other way. I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman a question I put earlier in the day. A friend of mine the other day had his business office in the neighbourhood of this House taken over by the authorities, whether military or some other authority it does not matter—

We have passed the Vote on which that question could be raised.

Question put, and agreed to.

MISCELLANEOUS LEGAL BUILDINGS, GREAT BRITAIN.—Class I

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £25,400, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for Expenditure in respect of Miscellaneous Legal Buildings."—[NOTE.—£24,000 has been voted on account.]

I am sorry to say that this item, so far as it relates to Scotland, has slightly increased in the year 1917–18, and I desire my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland to explain how that comes about. These times are not times for increase of expediture, and I hope he will be able to give a satisfactory explanation.

May I answer that? As a matter of fact, there is a decrease of £200 on the Vote.

Question put, and agreed to.

ART AND SCIENCE BUILDINGS, GREAT BRITAIN.—Class I

Resolved, "That a sum, not exceeding £42,200, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for Expenditure in respect of Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain."—[NOTE.—£22,000 has been voted on account.]

DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR BUILDINGS.—Class I

Resolved, "That a sum, not exceeding £20,650, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of pay- ment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for Expenditure in respect of Diplomatic and Consular Buildings, and for the maintenance of certain Cemeteries Abroad."—[NOTE.—£10,000 has been voted on account.]

REVENUE BUILDINGS.—Class I

Resolved, "That a sum, not exceeding £315,800, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for Expenditure in respect of Customs and Excise, Inland Revenue, Post Office and Telegraph Buildings in Great Britain, and certain Post Offices Abroad."—[NOTE.—£190,000 has been voted on account.]

MINISTRY OF LABOUR, EMPLOYMENT EXCHANGE AND INSURANCE BUILDINGS, GREAT BRITAIN.—Class I

Resolved, "That a sum, not exceeding £78,350, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for Expenditure in respect of Ministry of Labour, Employment Exchange and Insurance Buildings, Great Britain."—[NOTE.—£80,000 has been voted on account.]

PUBLIC BUILDINGS, GREAT BRITAIN.—Class I

Resolved, "That a sum, not exceeding £120,700, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for Expenditure, in respect of sundry Public Buildings in Great Britain, not provided for on other Votes."—[NOTE.—£516,000 has been voted on account.]

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again To-morrow.

Supply [23rd March]

Resolution reported,

CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1917–18.—Class I

"That a sum, not exceeding £33,230, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for Expenditure in respect of Royal Palaces, including a Grant-in-Aid."

Resolution agreed to.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Sugar Supplies

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

It will be within the recollection of the House that I asked a question yesterday of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Food Controller with regard to the refusal of the Sugar Commission to purchase some 19,000 tons of sugar, and my hon. Friend in reply stated that the refusal was on account of the question of tonnage, because it was necessary to regulate the tonnage which would bring the sugar over here. My information is thatthat was not the reason. Since I first put the question down I have had letters from three gentlemen informing me that they had made similar offers of sugar to the Sugar Commission, and the answer in all these cases is identically the same. The question of tonnage was not included; in fact, in one case the tonnage had already been provided. They were asked, "Have you got a licence?" and in every case they replied, "No, we have not got a licence but we should like to have one." They were then asked, "How long they had been in the habit of dealing in sugar," which is the important point, and in every case they replied, "Quite recently." In every case the answer was a refusal to grant a licence.

Is that reply quite recent, and were they already in the sugar business?

I do not quite see what that has to do with it, for it does not make the slightest difference when at the present moment and for the last two years the public have been put to great inconvenience in obtaining sugar, and it does not seem to me to make any difference whether a man has been in the habit of dealing in sugar or not. What does that matter so long as the price is right? When these sort of questions are put and people are refused licences to sell sugar because they are not in the habit of dealing in sugar, the only inference is that there is a ring which it is desired to maintain, because these people do not desire that their profits should be interfered with. The first letter I will read is from Messrs. Robinson and Company, who write to the Secretary of the Sugar Commission as follows:

"Aldersgate Street, E.C.,

29th March, 1917.

Dear Sir,—As we are now likely to have regular offers of sugar from Java and Guadeloupe, through the Continental and Oversea Trading Company, Ltd., of Paris, for whom we act in this country, we beg to make formal application for a licence enabling us to deal in sugar.

Yours faithfully,

T. T. ROBINSON & Co."

The following reply was received from the Secretary to the Sugar Commission:

"Dear Sirs,—With reference to your letter of the 29th March, I shall be obliged if you will indicate to the Commission the nature and extent of the sugar business in which you were engaged in normal times.

Yours faithfully,

C. S. REWCASTLE, Secretary."

There is not a word about the difficulty of shipping, and they only ask the nature and extent of the sugar business in normal times. On the 3rd of April Messrs. Robinson and Company sent the following reply:

"Dear Sir,—We beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter of yesterday's date, referring to ours of the 29th ult., and in reply to your inquiry, we have to say that we have not done business in sugar previous to the first offer which we made to your Department about six weeks ago, and the offer which we made to you last week."

On the 12th April the Secretary to the Sugar Commission replied as follows:

"I have to acknowledge receipt of your letter of the 3rd instant, but in the circumstances the Commission regret that it cannot see its way to granting licence requested."

There are further letters on the subject, but I do not think I need trouble the House with them. Telegrams were sent to the Sugar Commission offering large supplies of sugar, which were refused, and I do not know whether the price was wrong or not. In one case it was stated that four steamers were at the disposal of the firm to transmit the sugar to this country on receipt of a telegram from the firm. In another telegram 7,000 tons were offered at 21s. per cwt. from Java. I think I have shown that offers of sugar were made in large quantities by genuine people. I am informed that some of these firms have been established for twenty-eight years in the City of London, and no attempt has been made to show that they were not able to obtain the sugar which they offered. I have received the following letter:

"London Institution,

Finsbury Circus, E.C.

27th April, 1917.

Dear Sir,—I notice in the 'Daily Telegraph' that you are to put a question in the House on Monday respecting the refusal of the Commission on the Sugar Supply to buy sugar offered to them and their refusal to allow it to be offered to others.

On 27th January I offered the Commission 75,000 tons from an American refinery, deliverable over three months—25,000 monthly.

I received the following reply:

'I have to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 27th January, for which kindly accept the Commission's thanks. The offer, however, is not of any interest to the Commission at present.—(Signed) C. I. REWCASTLE, Secretary.'

I know they must certainly have paid for whatever they have bought in February, March, or April, a very great deal more than the 75,000 tons in January were offered at.

I received a letter from the Commission dated 10th instant, as follows:

'I am directed to inform you that the attention of this Commission has been called to the fact that you are negotiating in connection with sugar abroad, and to refer you to the Order of the Food Controller dated the 8th of February, whereby any such transactions are prohibited unless a licence to trade has been obtained. Application for licences must be made to this Commission, and I shall be obliged if you will apply for a licence, and if you will indicate to the Commission the nature and the extent of the sugar business in which you were engaged in normal times.'"

There, again, the same question was put. You must have a licence, and unless you can show that you had been in the sugar trade for some time, you cannot get a licence. This gentleman replied that he had not dealt in sugar before the present year, and that he would not now have done so only that he was acting as the agent for a refiner. This is the refusal which he received from the Secretary to the Sugar Commission:

"I have to acknowledge your letter of the 12th instant, but the Commission cannot in the circumstances see its way to granting the licence requested."

I have a letter here from Messrs. W. J. Keymer and Company, of Fenchurch Street, who experienced similar treatment from the Sugar Commission, and they state that they offered 10,000 tons of sugar. They offered to negotiate the business on the 10th of March, and the Secretary to the Sugar Commission replied, asking them to indicate the nature and extent of the sugar business in which they were engaged in normal times. When their representative called at the offices of the Sugar Commission he was

"Dear Sir,—Referring to the article in this morning's 'Daily Telegraph' giving notice of your question on Monday next regarding the supply of sugar, I beg to inform you that, through friends of mine, I could supply both Java and Cuban sugar in large quantities, but owing to Government restrictions and a Regulation under the Defence of the Realm Act of the 15th February last, whereby no one in this country is allowed to offer, negotiate, or sell sugar, either within the United Kingdom or without, without a licence of the Sugar Commission, which on demand is refused, I am debarred from doing any business in this commodity."

I have brought these letters down to the House, and I am prepared to give the names if my hon. Friend requires them—in fact, I have given them in several instances. I cannot myself see that there is any answer to my indictment, but if there is one I hope it will be given, and I trust that my hon. Friend will give instructions to the Sugar Commission that they are in future to buy sugar from whoever offers it, provided the article is good and the price reasonable.

I hope the hon. Gentleman in dealing with this matter will seriously consider the whole position of the Sugar Commission. There is no doubt whatever that in the sugar industry the Sugar Commission is regarded with lack of popularity. It is a well-known fact that prior to the War some of them who have been most prominently connected with the sugar industry were very largely concerned with German businesses. It is a well-known fact that for a very long time the expert adviser to the Sugar Commission was Mr. Julius Runge. I remember that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was asked whether this gentleman was a British subject, and it has frequently been said that he is British and it was stated on one occasion that he was educated at Marlborough. I have been told that no one there at the time had any idea that he was anything but a German. I am told that his father, Mr. Herman Runge, was a naturalised German, and that his uncle, Mr. Runge, at this moment is still in Hamburg. They were engaged in the sugar business with an Austrian as a partner, and the uncle has nine sons fighting in the German Army against them. This gentleman was in the position for a long time of expert adviser to the Sugar Commission, and perhaps the hon. Gentleman will tell us whether he is still in that position. I am not saying that the other experts on the Sugar Commission are not in every respect patriotic men, but the fact remains that they were deeply dyed with this vast trade in Germany prior to the War, and one who has since been added, a most capable business man, is, nevertheless, indirectly concerned with some six or seven Dutch or German firms. This wants looking into, and the principle which the right hon. Gentleman has put before us this evening is a most important one, demanding the attention not only of the hon. and gallant Gentleman but of every Member of this House. If vast quantities of sugar have been offered to this country in the manner which is clearly proved from that correspondence, it seems almost incredible that the Sugar Commission should be in a position to say that because so many years ago they did not sell sugar in this country therefore they must not be allowed to offer it at the present moment. I hope that the hon. and gallant Gentleman will look into the whole matter, endeavour to gain the opinion of Mincing Lane on all transactions in sugar, and really inform himself on this question. I think then he will find that it will be desirable to alter the whole method by which sugar is purchased.

I should like to say, in support of what has been said, that similar complaints have been brought to my notice of refusal to purchase sugar, and nobody seems to know who it is that refuses. Perhaps the hon. and gallant Gentleman will kindly give us exactly the names of the personnel of the Sugar Commission? We none of us in this House know them, although they may be known outside. I hope that he will give us the names of the whole of the Commission.

If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will be good enough to put down a question on this subject, I will give him the information he requires, but I have not got it with me at the present moment. As I replied to the right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) yesterday, this is not a question of the supply of sugar, but a question of the availability of shipping. The proceedings of the Sugar Commission are conducted solely in the interests of the sugar consumers in this country. I can assure him that there is no ring whatever in the sugar trade. If there were such a ring, or if there were any tendency for a limited number of persons to operate to the public disadvantage, the Sugar Commission would take care to put a stop to such a state of affairs. The truth of the matter is that we do in fact obtain all the sugar for which shipping tonnage is available. If we do not obtain it through one channel, we obtain it through another. The sugar that is available for our requirements does eventually come to this country through one medium or another. There is no difficulty whatever about purchasing sugar. It does not help the Sugar Commission in the slightest degree if some individual or firm who has never traded in sugar before comes forward and makes an offer to secure sugar for British requirements. The only difficulty is getting it to this country. Offers of sugar f.o.b., which all these offers are, whether in Java, Peru, or Brazil, which are the countries from which these gentlemen referred to proposed to obtain the sugar, are of no value to the Sugar Commission, especially if the price asked happens to be higher than the current price at which sugar is obtainable through other channels, and that was the fact in every one of these cases to which reference has been made.

May I say that Messrs. Robinson inform me that their sugar went to France?

Perhaps the right hon. Baronet is not aware that the Sugar Commission conducts purchases of sugar for France and Italy in addition to those required for this country.

No, it was not lost. We have in this matter, as in others, to pool the Allied requirements, and France gets her share. The Dealings in Sugar Restriction Order, 1917, to which reference has been made, was to the effect that after 8th February of this year nobody could deal in sugar abroad without a licence from the Sugar Commission. The object of this Order was to keep out of the market possibly irresponsible persons not normally engaged in the trade whose transactions might tend to unsettle, and in fact have in the past seriously unsettled, the sugar business. It is clearly in the interests of consumers in this country that the sugar market should not be unsettled by promiscuous persons coming into the sugar market and competing with one another, with the result that abnormal competition takes place and it becomes more difficult to obtain our national requirements at a reasonable price.

I should like to state what is the general position as to these offers. No offer made to the Commission is ever rejected without the most careful consideration, and the points that present themselves to the Sugar Commission in every case are four in number. First, is the sugar so situated that the Commission can obtain shipping tonnage for its transport? That is far the most important consideration. Secondly, is the proposed delivery date one for which further supplies are in fact required That also is a very important matter, now that transport is so precarious, in order that there shall be a regular supply continuously coming for the requirements of the country. Thirdly, is the price proposed one that compares favourably with other offers and quotations that are open to the Commission? And, fourthly, what is the standing of the offeror and are the general terms and proposals such as to promise the possibilities of advantageous business in the future, or, as is very frequently the case, are they such as to show that the offer is either disingenuous or made by somebody entirely ignorant of the trade into which he desires to enter.

In trading in sugar a certain amount of knowledge and experience is required. If the contracts are made f.o.b., it involves some knowledge of collecting supplies and of grading, and of course also a knowledge of ordinary business processes in connection with bills of lading. A certain number of gentlemen who made offers prior to this Order to which I have referred clearly showed that they had no business knowledge at all. Such offers involve the Sugar Commission in an immense amount of work which ought not to fall upon that already somewhat overworked body. In all but the most exceptional instances it may be taken for granted that those persons who are most likely to make advantageous offers are firms or persons, all quite well known, whose business it is to deal regularly in the sugar market, and with these the Commission is constantly in the closest communication. Moreover, when sugar is bought f.o.b. abroad, there is much to be done beyond concluding the contract. Further, in a considerable number of cases, payments have to be provided for by highly complicated financial arrangements in order to protect exchange, and until these arrangements have reached a certain stage of completion no purchases can be made, and then only upon lines and through channels which are consistent with these arrangements. The proposal that the Commission, or any firm or individual, should be called upon to give reasons for rejecting offers put before them is so extraordinary that were it not raised by so reputable a gentleman as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London it would really appear to be—

I did not ask that the Commission should give reasons for declining to purchase. I said that the reason they gave for declining to give a licence was that the firms had not previously dealt in sugar, and I could not see that there was any reason for declining to purchase merely because the person offering had not previously dealt in sugar.

I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon. I would, however, point out that as a matter of principle it is not desirable to ask for detailed reasons for not entering into contracts on the part either of the Sugar Commission or of the Wheat Commission, which are conducted sometimes under very difficult and intricate conditions, in the public interest. Reference was made to shipping tonnage being available in one case. I have taken a lot of trouble to try and trace this reference to shipping tonnage, and there is no correspondence in the office of the Sugar Commission that we can find where any definite assurance is given that shipping tonnage was available—and for a very good reason. Shipping tonnage is entirely, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, under the control of the Shipping Controller. No one can charter any British ship without the permission of the Shipping Controller, and no one can charter any neutral ship without the permission of the Inter-Allied Chartering Commission, which acts in close contact with the Ministry of Shipping. The result is that if any shipping is available for the transport of sugar it is offered as a matter of course through the Shipping Controller to the Sugar Commission. I am sorry that I have not been able to trace this offer of shipping tonnage, but I think that there must have been some error.

I shall be very glad to have any information from the right hon. Gentleman upon that matter. I will deal, just shortly, with the four cases which the right hon. Gentleman has brought to my notice. I do not know if he objects to my mentioning the names. The first case was that of a gentleman named Mr. Constans, belonging to a firm calling themselves Messrs. James Constans and Company. The Commission cannot trace the receipt of any such offer from this gentleman or firm, or that he is known at all in the sugar trade. I have made some effort myself to look up this gentleman in the telephone and other directories, and I have been unable to trace him. The next case was that of Mr. William Harvie. This gentleman wrote from what is called the London Institution, and made an offer of 75,000 tons of American sugar for delivery in February, March, and April at a price which was roughly 27s. 6d. per ton over the market rates, or about £103,125 on the quantity involved. That was an offer which could not be accepted in the public interest. It is perfectly true that he made a subsequent suggestion, which did not amount to an offer, relating to 25,000 tons which sounded attractive and which resulted in some negotiation, but as a matter of fact it was not confirmed by his American principals, as the market quotation had risen considerably while the offer was on its way to England from the United States. So much for him. There remains the firm of Messrs. William J. Keymer and Company, of Fenchurch Street, a firm of East India and Colonial export and import agents. It is an old firm, which was founded many years ago. They have never made, as far as can be traced, any offer of sugar whatever to the Commis- sion. On the 5th March they applied for a licence to deal in sugar abroad under the Order I have mentioned, and they stated that their dealings in sugar had been practically confined to exporting from this country small quantities of sugar, but that they had been offered sugar f.o.b. Jamaica and desired to handle these on commission. This licence the Commission, in the circumstances, declined to issue, as the Order in question was drawn for the express purpose of protecting the markets from disturbance by inquiries of such a character. The hon. and gallant Member for Christchurch (Brigadier-General Croft) raised a question with regard to a certain Mr. Runge, who continues to act on behalf of the Sugar Commission as business manager. I am informed that he was born, as the hon. and gallant Member himself admitted, in England. His father resides in England. He is by origin himself a Cuban. There is no doubt a German parentage, his name suggests it, but he is in every other sense an Englishman. He has done very good work as an expert on behalf of the Sugar Commission, and the Food Controller hesitates to take any steps to supersede him by the appointment of someone else in his place unless that somebody is as capable a manager and is as good an expert as can be found for that purpose. I have endeavoured, to the best of my ability, to reply to the questions raised with regard to the sugar problem. It is a complicated and difficult problem, but I think I can say on behalf of the Sugar Commission that they do endeavour to carry on their difficult work in the best interests of the sugar consumers in this country, which interests must necessarily, as regards this commodity, and indeed as regards all essential commodities, take priority over any trade interests whatever.

I have listened with a great deal of interest to the reply given by the hon. Gentleman, but I must point out that his answer is quite different of the one we received previously when the sugar monopoly was set up. The hon. Gentleman has stated that it is entirely a question of the availability of shipping. That was not on the last Government's programme. When the sugar monopoly was set up in 1914, this House was told that no one must be allowed to bring sugar here except the Sugar Commission. A rigid and strict system was set up by which the whole thing was taken over by the Government. I have always protested against it. I have always said in the House during the last two and a half years. with regard to sugar or any commodity of such importance, that if anybody could bring it in he ought to be allowed to do so. I understand that the right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) to-day raises the same question, and has given certain cases in which he said that considerable quantities of sugar have been offered, but the Government would not accept one of those offers. Therefore, the question is whether the House will exercise its powerful influence to induce the Government to raise the monopoly it maintains with regard to the supply of sugar. When we come to discuss that question, we find that the price of sugar has risen more than the price of any other article. There has been practically a famine in sugar. It is one of the first things in regard to which we are to be rationed, if there is to be rationing. The Government are in the extraordinary position of taking these steps, and at the same time of keeping up a strict monopoly and refusing to allow the import by any person other than the Sugar Commission. There is a question raised here that ought to interest the House. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Food Controller, to whom we have just listened, thinks that the Commission can do better than anybody else. This House used to be a believer in individual effort. Surely in a case like this there may be occasion & when a individual importer might nave opportunities such as those mentioned by the right hon. Baronet, and I cannot see the slightest reason why, when such an opportunity arises, the Government should shut the door against it. That is the complaint that is made. I would point out to the Parliamentary Secretary that he was not quite consistent in all that he said. First, he said that it was exclusively a question of shipping.

I did not say "exclusively." I was very careful to say it was the main difficulty, but I did not say it was exclusively the difficulty.

I am very glad to hear that it is not shipping. The next thing was the price paid. I do not suggest that if the price was too dear the Government should not refuse to buy it, but I do not understand from the right hon. Baronet that the Government was asked to buy it. All that they were asked to do was to allow 7,000 or 10,000 tons of sugar to be brought into this country. How can it be a crime to bring in 10,000 tons of sugar? The great case that was brought up in this House about three months ago—that of the Maypole Dairy Company—has not been mentioned. That is one of the most enterprising distributing firms in the country. It has been very harshly treated in regard to sugar. This firm is the greatest manufacturer of margarine in this country. It sells margarine, butter, and tea. It has been put to the greatest loss and inconvenience through the want of sugar. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why did they not sell sugar before?"] Supposing the hon. Member who interrupts had been leading a loose life—I will not, of course, suggest such a thing—supposing he had been doing anything wrong, and suddenly reformed himself, will he allege that he should never be allowed to reform? That is what the Government have said. It is better late than never. If a man did not sell sugar when it was plentiful at 1½. or 2d. a pound, surely now when it is 6d. or 7d. a pound nobody will come forward and suggest that you should say I will not let you sell sugar! The Government says, "No, you shall not. Because you did not do it before, you cannot be allowed to do it now." I have never heard of any such principle before. The House ought to treat this question very seriously. When the War broke out, no one anticipated that it would last so long as this. Here we are almost at the end of the third year. Suppose it goes on for another two or three years, will private enterprise never be allowed to relieve the situation during that time? We were told it was all a question of shipping not being available. The right hon. Baronet mentioned that one of these importers had four ships available at Java, and could have sent sugar in them to this country.

The hon. Gentleman shakes his head, but if he had had the mercantile experience that some of us have had, he would be prepared to admit that now and then an individual obtains information which the Government has not got. These Departments are not all-seeing. As a matter of fact, there is nobody ever at the Sugar Commission except an office boy, who turns callers away and tells them to write. It puts the most inquisitorial questions. That is not the way to do business. Let me take a case in, the tea trade, a case which came within my knowledge in the week. A man came along and made an offer to a firm of a considerable quantity of China tea. The Government will not allow China tea to be brought in. The firm did not refuse it for a moment. They said to the man, "Have you got it?" and he said he had. It came in by mistake, but it was here. They bought it immediately. The Commission will not do anything for the play of enterprise and human ingenuity. It says, "If we cannot do it, nobody else shall be allowed to do it." That is a dog-in-the-manger policy. It leads to inflated prices of sugar, and puts a heavy burden on the people of this country. I have endeavoured to call attention to the matter for the last two years, but I have not the art of dealing with the House as my right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London has. Whenever he takes up a question he gets people interested in it, and I am very glad to see so many are interested in it to-day. The answer of the hon. Gentleman has been inadequate, and I make an earnest appeal to the Government, through the hon. Gentleman, to relax the monopoly—that is all—and to allow anybody to bring sugar into this country who can do it. What is the good of inquiring whether a man can do it? Let him try! If he does not bring it in, he does not get the money. If he loses money, let him lose it. What harm is there if he should become a martyr in such a good cause? I therefore appeal to my hon. Friend, as. I so often asked the late Government, to relax this severe monopoly of sugar, and to allow anybody to do anything they can to relieve the shortage of food.

I do not intend to pursue the subject raised by the right hon. Baronet—

If a new question is going to be raised, perhaps I may be allowed to announce the names of the members of the Sugar Commission. The names of the present members of the Royal Commission on Sugar Supply are as follows:

Has the hon. Gentleman yet decided anything as to the appointment of a representative of the Sugar Commission in Ireland

That is at the present time receiving the careful consideration of the Food Controller in consultation with the Chief Secretary for Ireland, and I think an announcement will very likely be made on the matter in the course of a day or two.

Are we to take it that a Commissioner will be appointed for Ireland, because our people are labouring under even more serious disabilities than the people here?

I only intend to make two observations on the point raised by the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury). The first is that some notification should be made of the case he brought before the House in which a firm offered to bring sugar here in tonnage which they themselves had engaged. If it is the fact that the firm had the tonnage in which to bring the sugar, it is a most extraordinary proceeding on the part of the Sugar Commission not to allow that sugar to come into the country. The second observation I would make is that if any firm were willing to buy sugar and to charter tonnage at the exorbitant rates now prevailing, and were willing to bring the ships here and, sell the sugar at the price prevailing here, they were really doing a public service. That is all I wish to say on that matter.

"Nation" Newspaper

The question I intended to raise is a different one, and I gave notice to the Under-Secretary for War to-day that I was going to draw further attention to the extraordinary character of an answer which he then gave. It arose out of a debate which I initiated a fortnight ago on the question of the suppression of the foreign circulation of the "Nation" newspaper. Seldom has a case been put up for a Government—even this Government—which on examination has crumbled more completely than the official case then put up. Nearly every defence upon which the Government then founded itself has fallen to the ground. The defence based upon the request of Sir Douglas Haig is gone. The defence based on the actual words of the article in the "Nation" newspaper is gone, and now we have the very point upon which the Prime Minister laid great reliance also proved to be equally false. I wish to remind the House of what the Prime Minister said on 17th April: man, when making his speech, said he had one of the articles beside him; consequently what reason could there be for postponing it? However, it was postponed till to-day. Practically an extra week was given for research, investigation and inquiry to discover some association between the directors of the "Nation" newspaper with some articles found in the German trenches.

The answer which is given to-day by the Under-Secretary for War, who has this unfortunate and disagreeable task thrust upon him day after day, is that

I do not expect my hon. Friend to justify the Prime Minister. I think it would be an impossible task even for him. But the point which I wish to make clear now is that at least the Prime Minister might have taken the opportunity of this question to withdraw the charge and to make some apology to the directors of the "Nation" newspaper. After all, he has received many important services from the directors of the "Nation" newspaper. My hon. Friend (Mr. Macpherson) used to be associated with the Prime Minister in regard to the land campaign, and he probably knows something of the money which went to the Prime Minister from the pacifist directors of the "Nation" newspaper for the purposes of that campaign. He also knows that since the War one of the pacifist directors of the "Nation" newspaper, a very able gentleman now deceased, Mr. Cross, was used by the Prime Minister for the purposes of the Liquor Board of Control, and that gentleman gave his services unstintedly for the purpose of the work of that Board of Control, and consequently to a large extent as a matter of personal service to the Prime Minister. In view of all these things the attack upon the directorate of the "Nation" newspaper must be revolting to any man with an ordinary sense of honour in this House. We have the fact that it is absolutely untrue, and that it was only introduced for the purpose of prejudice in the lowest possible form. There are many other questions in regard to the suppression of this newspaper which are not yet cīeared up. There is the mystery as to how the passage in the article of 3rd March got into the German wireless. It did not get these till 27th March, and it got there through the medium of a neutral country. It remains to be seen who supplied the article in the neutral country with a view to its getting into the German wireless. It will be revealed. We have to find out who are in this foreign propaganda Department of the Foreign Office and whether the gentlemen in it are personally attached to the Prime Minister and are his own peculiar publicity agents. There is no doubt that the initiation, the motive power in the first instance, came from that Department. I should not be surprised at all if it were not the case that a certain letter which appeared in the "Times" of 5th March attacking the "Nation" newspaper, and which was the origin of the whole of this, did not emanate from the same Department. I hope my hon. Friend has the authority of the Prime Minister to make an apology to the "Nation" newspaper.

I hope the House will forgive me for not being here when the Debate was started. I thought the Adjournment would be earlier than usual, but I do not think it would be as early as six o'clock. It is a great disadvantage to me that I was not here, because I am in a position of replying to a Debate to which I have not listened.

I hope my hon. Friend did not repeat the last part of his speech. I am hopeful that it is not the opinion of this House that the Propaganda Department of the Foreign Office is not loyal to the Prime Minister or to this country. The suggestion of my hon. Friend was, and I believe is, that there is a Department in the Foreign Office which is not loyal to the Prime Minister or to the House of Commons.

Is my hon. Friend suggesting that there is a Department of the Government which, in order to be loyal to the Prime Minister, is disloyal to the country?

I think that is a very natural inference and my hon. Friend will not deny it. I am sorry to think that any hon Member should come forward in the midst of a great war of this sort—

Wherein did I make a charge of disloyalty either by implication or explicitly in my speech?

I think I am within the recollection of the House when I say that my hon. Friend said there was a certain Department in the Foreign Office which, in order to be loyal to the Prime Minister, was prepared to be disloyal to the country.

My hon. Friend may not have said that explicitly, but I am entitled to draw that inference from the concluding portion of his speech. My hon. Friend said he wondered how this information in the "Nation" got into the German press. I will tell him a fact which I stated to the House when this Debate was raised by himself a few days ago. The whole of this article in the "Nation" was contained in the "Lokal Anzeiger," a paper well known to my hon. Friend, word for word.

My hon. Friend will forgive me if I have not charged my memory with the date, but of this I am convinced, that what I stated is true. There is no doubt at all that this was actually used by the German prisoners—this particular article in the "Nation." With regard to the article supposed to have been written by my hon. Friend (Mr. Ponsonby) it is equally true that it was contained in a paper which was found on a German prisoner captured by us. It is not for me to say what my right hon. Friend's information was so far as the directorate of the "Nation" is concerned. I heard him make that speech, and I did not know what information he had, and the House, I am sure, will believe me when I say that I gave the answer which was supplied to me.

The hon. Member must know that the German propaganda is of an extremely clever kind. They publish a paper printed in English containing, in this case, for example, an extract from this leaflet which was published by my hon. Friend (Mr. Ponsonby). That leaflet took a very grave view of the condition of the country.

That may be so. The leaflet might be very true of the condition of the country at the time. If my recollection is right—I am quite willing to show this leaflet to any Member of the House—the extract was prefaced by a remark obviously in the interests of the German Army and to the detriment of the British Army and the British soldier. It began by saying:

"Let us see now what the well-known British democrat, Mr. Ponsonby, has to say about the situation."

I cannot help that. What I am dealing with now is that this paper was found on German prisoners. Whether my hon. Friend is a director of the "Nation" I am not prepared to say. I do not know.

All I know is that I gave the hon. Member for Stirling Burghs notice that he was to be referred to in the reply I was about to give. I have not had the opportunity of hearing the hon. Member.

He has said so.

It being one hour after the conclusion of Government Business, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th February.

Adjourned at Half after Seven o'clock.