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Commons Chamber

Volume 93: debated on Wednesday 9 May 1917

House of Commons

Wednesday, May 9, 1917

Private Business

Sheffield United Gaslight Company Bill,

Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table.

Bedwas and Machen Urban District Council Bill [Lords],

Caerphilly Urban District Council Bill [Lords],

North Cheshire Water Bill [Lords],

Ashton-under-Lyne Corporation Bill [Lords],

Kenilworth Gas Bill [Lords],

Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

Patents, Designs, and Trade Marks

Copy presented of Thirty-fourth Report of the Comptroller-General of Patents, Designs, and Trade Marks, with Appendices, for the year 1916 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 79.]

East India (Trade)

Copy presented of Review of the Trade of India for 1915–16 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Shops Act, 1912

Copy presented of Order made by the Council of the undermentioned local authority, and confirmed, with amendment, by the Secretary of State for the Home Department:—

Town of Gillingham

[by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Agricultural Statistics (Ireland)

Copy presented of the Agricultural Statistics of Ireland, with detailed Report for 1915 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Royal Indian Marine

asked the Secretary of State for India whether the commissions of officers of the Royal Indian Marine are signed by His Majesty the King, by the Secretary of State for India, or by the Viceroy of India; whether officers of the Royal Indian Marine are relatively senior or junior to the officers of the Royal Naval Reserve or the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve; and whom the commissions for the two latter services are signed by?

The formal document appointing officers to the Royal Indian Marine is signed by the Viceroy and Governor-General of India. The status of Royal Indian Marine officers is senior to officers of the Royal Naval Reserve and Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve of equivalent relative rank. I understand that officers of the last two services receive commissions issued by the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty and bearing the King's Royal Sign Manual.

Indian Super-Tax

asked the Secretary of State for India whether a company registered in England and carrying on its operations in India is exempt from Indian Super-tax if it remits its entire profits to the former country; and whether, when such remittance is made through a bank, such bank is an agency under the Act?

The liability of a company operating in India to Indian Super-tax is not affected by its having an English registration and remitting its profits to England. As my hon. Friend is aware, Indian Super-tax is levied only on the undistributed profits, less a deduc- tion, of a company. A bank through which a remittance of profits is made is not regarded as an agent for the purpose of the Super-Tax Act.

German Submarine Menace

Missing British Vessels

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in addition to those British merchant vessels sunk by mine or submarine, as announced by the Admiralty, he will state how many British merchant vessels are missing at the present time?

Since the 1st January, 1917, fifteen British ships have been reported overdue, about which no information has as yet been received. It is impossible to say how many of these are marine casualties and how many are due to enemy action.

Armed Merchant Vessels

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what proportion of British vessels of all tonnage sunk during the last three months were armed?

In the opinion of my right hon. Friend the First Lord, it would not be in the public interest to give this information.

Might I ask whether there is any authority in this country which can order a ship to sea unarmed despite the protest of the captain or owners?

If it is not in the public interest to give this information, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Admiralty are now in a position to arm practically every merchant ship that leaves port?

Steamship "Ballarat" Loss

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what period of time elapsed between the moment the "Ballarat" was torpedoed and the moment she was totally submerged; whether any assistance was available to attempt to salve her; and, if so, what action was taken?

The vessel remained afloat for about 14½ hours. A tug was immediately dispatched to her, and she had, in fact, been towed for a considerable distance at the time she sank.

Dublin Bay

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if German submarines have recently been in Dublin Bay; whether a German submarine sank a food ship going to Ireland; and if officers of a German submarine boarded the mud barge of the Dublin Corporation almost beside the Kish lighthouse?

The Admiralty have no information that German submarines have recently been in Dublin Bay, and have no reason to believe that they have been. A vessel was sunk last month in the Atlantic while on a voyage to Belfast and Dublin with a half-cargo of wheat. The reply to the last part of the question is in the negative.

Can the right hon. Gentleman state whether he has made any inquiries from the authorities in Dublin as to whether the submarine commander boarded the mud barge which is the property of the Dublin Corporation?

My hon. Friend has heard the earlier part of the answer, which says that we have no information, and that we have no reason to believe that any submarine has been in Dublin Bay.

That being so, it follows that the commander could not have gone on to the mud barge in Dublin Bay. If the hon. Gentleman wants local and further inquiry made in respect of the rumour which he is now putting to me, inquiry shall certainly be made.

Patrol Areas and Bases (Ages of Officers)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can give the ages of the six oldest officers in charge of patrol areas and bases around the United Kingdom; and whether he can state if these officers were retired for age during peace time?

The ages of the six oldest officers range from sixty-two to sixty-five. All these officers were on the Retired List prior to the outbreak of war, but only one was retired for age.

Have there been any changes in the direction of reducing the age, as a very short time ago there was one officer of sixty-seven and another of sixty-eight years of age occupying important posts?

I cannot say. My hon. Friend put to me a question the other day, and I got him what information I could by placing the matter before the First Lord of the Admiralty. I cannot say whether there have been any further retirements.

Is the Admiralty making a serious effort to get younger men in these posts which have to deal with the submarine menace?

Certainly. I have already put my hon. and gallant Friend's views before the First Lord of the Admiralty when he put the other question.

Merchant Vessels (Entry into Port)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will make arrangements with the proper authorities for vessels to be allowed to enter port on arrival with food or other cargoes so that the risk of being sunk by submarine may not be extended and increased through their having to wait off the port; if he is aware that losses of ships and cargoes have occurred in consequence of these precautions not having been taken; and if, when vessels laden with food stuffs are obliged to call for orders at Falmouth, Queenstown, or Plymouth, he will arrange to have them convoyed thence to their port or ports of final discharge?

All possible steps are taken by the Admiralty to accelerate the entry of merchant vessels into port, and I do not know to what cases of losses of ships and cargoes the hon. Baronet refers. My right hon. Friend will be glad to receive and investigate particulars of any case that the hon. Baronet has in mind. I regret that the resources at the disposal of the Admiralty do not permit of an individual escort being provided for every vessel conveying foodstuffs, though, of course, in this and all other respects, I can assure the hon. Baronet that the Admiralty has done, and is doing, all that is possible and practicable. On the whole matter, I should like to say that the dispositions which we make are of a character which cannot possibly be discussed in public without giving information of the utmost value to the enemy. But if the hon. Baronet cares to see me upon this matter, I shall be glad to discuss it further with him.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that ships have been lost which have been going from port to port with food cargoes?

As I have said, I do not know to what cases the hon. Baronet (Sir W. Runciman) refers. If he will give us particulars we will investigate them at once.

Why should not an order be given that when once a ship with a food cargo has reached a port in this country it should not be sent away?

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the tracks laid down to commanders in the merchant service by the Admiralty apparently become known to commanders of German submarines, and that the latter know the names of the British vessels and dates and time of sailing from British and Foreign ports, and that they lie in wait and very frequently succeed in sinking these vessels on the prescribed tracks; if he will alter this method and allow shipmasters to use their own judgment and methods of navigating with a view to avoiding these traps; and whether it has come to his knowledge that some of the victims of enemy submarining are persuaded that, given a free hand, they would have avoided the submarine?

We have no reason for believing that the commanders of German submarines become aware of the track laid down for any British merchant vessel, as this information is known only to the issuing authorities and to the master of the British merchant vessel. The names, dates, and time a sailing, even if known to the enemy, would give no clue to the tracks taken. No doubt it is the case that a certain proportion of vessels lost are sunk when taking the track prescribed for them; but the alternative method suggested by the hon. Baronet has already been fully tested, and the Admiralty have formed the conclusion that the present method—which is the result of careful thought, based upon the actual experience of war—is the better. It may well be the case that the opinion indicated in the last part of the question exists; but in a matter of this kind greater weight must be given to the judgment of those who are in possession of all the relevant data.

Can the right hon. Gentleman explain how it is that so many German submarines are on a certain point to the west of Ireland which he knows?

Cannot sealed instructions be given to captains instead of, as to my knowledge is done, telephone messages?

I imagine that, in such cases where telephoning is possible, the instructions would be given personally. On the point of sealed instructions, I am not aware of the particular form which the instructions take in every case. I will certainly put the point.

Fishing Vessels

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether the list of shipping losses to be issued this evening will include the trawlers and other fishing boats sunk off the south coast of Ireland on the 3rd and 4th instant; and what measures, if any, are being taken by the Admiralty to protect the fishing industry in those waters?

The latest Admiralty list of losses was issued through the morning papers of Thursday, 3rd May, and contained losses up to Sunday, 23rd April. It did not, therefore, include any loss which occurred on the 3rd or 4th May. If, after verification, the facts are found to be as stated, the loss would be included in the return to be issued tonight. The Irish fishing vessels receive all possible protection from the patrols.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the patrol boats which are supposed to be protecting these waters remain most of their time in harbours?

Questions

Hong Kong Dockyard (Wages)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, owing to the increased Income Tax, the men employed in the Hong Kong dockyard are in receipt of less wages than they received before the War; is he aware that the cost of living in Hong Kong has increased, and that to meet this increase private shipbuilding firms in Hong Kong have raised their wages 10 per cent. and increased the war bonus to 15 per cent.; and what the Admiralty proposes to do in regard to an increase of wages and salaries of their employés, or give a reason why the Admiralty decline to give at least the like increases as private employers?

I assume that the employés to whom my hon. and learned Friend refers are certain workmen who have been sent out to Hong Kong as volunteers from the Royal dockyards at home under agreement for a term of service as chargemen of trades. These men are paid wages and allowances in dollars; their income is now subject to a greater reduction in the shape of Income Tax than formerly, and it is in this sense only that they are now in receipt of less wages than before the War. I may remind my hon. and learned Friend that in this respect everybody who is in receipt of an income amounting to more than £130 a year is similarly affected. Further, I think I should be right in stating that residents at Hong Kong are not affected by increases in food prices to the same extent as persons residing in the United Kingdom. An application has been received from the men in question through the senior naval officer, and the whole circumstances bearing on the matter having been reviewed it has been decided that there is no case for the grant of a special increase in emoluments.

Royal Navy (Promotions)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention has been called to the position of lieutenants promoted on retirement from the ranks of commissioned warrant officers who have been called up to serve since the outbreak of the War; whether he is aware that, had they been promoted before retirement, they would have been retired as lieutenant-commanders; and will he at the close of the present War grant to those retired as lieutenants who have been called up the rank of lieutenant-commander?

I am aware that commissioned warrant officers granted the rank of lieutenant on retirement are precluded by the Regulations from reaching the rank of lieutenant-commander, and that commissioned warrant officers who reach the rank of lieutenant before retirement become lieutenant-commanders on attaining eight years' seniority as lieutenant. The cases of lieutenants retired from commissioned warrant rank who perform specially good service during War will be considered with those of other officers on the termination of hostilities, but no hope can be held out that all who have served during the War, whatever their services may have been, will be granted the higher rank.

Does my right hon. Friend realise that in substance the honorary rank of these men when they are called up becomes an absurdity if no promotion is given?

I have said that promotion for good service will be considered. But I can hold out no hope of promotion at large. My hon. and learned Friend's point, however, shall be put to the proper authority.

Royal Dockyards (Clerical Staff)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he has yet received the Report of the Government Arbitration Tribunal with regard to an increased war bonus to the clerical staff of the Royal Dockyards; and when he expects to be in a position to make a further statement on the subject?

No, Sir; but we expect to receive it immediately. When we do, if it does not cover our writers similarly situated in the home dockyards and naval establishments, we shall con- sider the matter with a view to immediate application to the Treasury on their behalf.

Food Supplies

Crystal Palace Canteens

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether an Order was issued at the Crystal Palace on 1st May prohibiting the sale at mid-day of cakes and buns in the dry canteen but not in the wet canteen or refreshment rooms; whether he is aware that this has resulted in many young men frequenting the latter who before took their refreshment in the dry canteen; and whether, in view of the desirability of not offering these youths inducements to drink alcohol, he will have the Order either withdrawn or enforced equally on all?

The Order was intended to apply to every canteen or refreshment room in the depot at which men are allowed to purchase food or drink. Through some misunderstanding the Order was not transmitted to the wet canteen or refreshment room at the same time that it was transmitted to the dry canteen under the management of the Y.M.C.A. Steps have now been taken that the Order will apply equally to the Y.M.C.A. and wet canteen and to the refreshment room. I should like to say, with reference to the wet canteen, that although beer is sold there, tea and coffee are also provided, and the great majority of men prefer the latter beverages. Indeed, looking at the reports on this depot, the sobriety of the men is most praiseworthy.

Horseflesh

asked the Home Secretary if, in view of the fact that the demand for horseflesh encourages persons to steal and butcher horses, he will take such measures as are necessary to prohibit the sale of horseflesh except in specially-licensed shops?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. Having regard to the Sale of horseflesh, etc., Regulation Act, 1889, which provides that horseflesh can only be sold in places where there is a notice conspicuously displayed indicating that horseflesh is sold there, I doubt whether any further measures are necessary.

Pheasants (Consumption of Wheat and Maize)

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been directed to a case heard at Guildford last week when two gamekeepers in the employment of Lord Pirrie were fined for feeding pheasants with wheat and maize; whether the statement that the employer was unaware of what was being done by his gamekeepers was made on oath or supported by evidence; and if he will say why the employer of these men was not made a party to the proceedings?

May I ask, Mr. Speaker, before the hon. Gentleman replies, whether it is not possible to take steps to prevent the abuse of the Question Paper by making it the vehicle of mere petty malevolence, whether personal or otherwise?

The hon. Gentleman's question is even worse than that appearing on the Paper. He might, at all events, wait until he hears the answer.

The Home Office had not heard of this case. I am having inquiry made, and will let the hon. Member know the result.

Discharge of Ships

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether, when vessels are obliged to call at Falmouth, Queenstown, or Plymouth for orders laden with grain, meat, or other foodstuffs ultimately destined for a United Kingdom port, he will make arrangements that either the vessel on arrival will have the whole cargo discharged at the port of call or, if facilities are not available for landing the whole of her cargo, that the vessel be ordered and convoyed to the nearest accessible port with the balance; and if he will carry out the policy of securing the cargo no matter at what port in the United Kingdom the vessel may call for orders, instead of risking the loss of ship and cargo by sending it through a long danger zone?

The action suggested in my right hon. Friend's ques- tion is that which is actually followed so far as the circumstances of each individual case permit. It is not the case that the Admiralty dispositions in question, of which the Ministry of Shipping is fully cognisant, are such as to endanger ships, or that ships have been lost because of those dispositions. On the contrary, the very reverse is the truth, as I have satisfied myself after exhaustive inquiry. The dispositions made, which it is quite impossible for me to discuss in public, have not risked ships, but saved them, and the questions which have been put to me in the House have related to cases of loss which are exceptional. I desire to say that, while it is impossible for me to add materially in public to the answers that I have given, I shall be very pleased to see any hon. Member privately on the subject, either at this House or at the Ministry of Shipping, and to give him full information.

Will my hon. Friend say whether he will take steps to, stop ships which come safely into port. with food proceeding to coast around practically almost the whole of Great Britain through all the danger zones, and is he aware of cases of that kind within the last three days?

No, I am not aware of any case to which the words used by my hon. Friend would accurately apply, but I think I know the case which he has in mind, and if he will be good enough to discuss it with me, I think he will find that the facts are as stated in my reply to my right hon. Friend.

Will the hon. Gentleman not take steps to have those cargoes of food landed on the South-West and West coast of Ireland and reshipped across the Channel to this country?

My hon. Friend is well aware that the case of the Irish ports is under our very serious consideration, but I hardly think that it arises out of the particular matter to which my right hon. Friend refers.

Is it a fact that vessels call to ports like Falmouth simply for instructions?

If my hon. Friend will be good enough to acquaint himself with the facts of the case he will see that he is raising a question which it is unfortunate, from the point of view of vital interest, to raise.

Communal Kitchens

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in view of the ignorance Which prevails among a large class of the community in regard to economical cooking and the preparation of such substituted foodstuffs as have now become necessary, he will consider the advisability of establishing communal kitchens forthwith in all populous areas where instruction could be given and samples of food supplied?

The National War Savings Committee are issuing to their local committees a memorandum suggesting the advisability of establishing central or communal kitchens wherever local conditions appear to favour such establishment. This memorandum defines a wartime central kitchen as a kitchen established to buy raw foodstuffs and to sell cooked foods for consumption at home, with a view to conserving the foodstuffs of the country, especially its cereals. Several of such kitchens have already been established. These institutions will, where possible, endeavour to combine instruction with supply.

Will these circulars be furnished to the different municipal authorities?

The National War Savings Committee and its allied local committees have the matter in hand. It should be clearly understood that any municipality taking similar action will do so with the full approval of the Ministry of Food.

In view of the saving undoubtedly resulting in point of labour, food, and-fuel, how many of these kitchens have been established up to the present?

Meatless Days

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in view of the shortage of cereals and the surplus of livestock, his Department intend to discourage the practice of having meatless days and also to advise the public to consume both veal and lamb?

The Food Controller has already announced his decision to abolish the meatless day in public eating places enforced by the Public Meals Order, and as a domestic practice it is to be deprecated. The restriction upon the slaughter of calves was withdrawn last month by the Board of Agriculture. There is no present reason for discouraging the consumption of either veal or lamb.

Milk

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether his Department have considered the advisability of removing the limitations placed upon the prices permitted to be charged by farmers to the retailers of milk and to substitute a maximum price at which it may be sold by the retailer to the consumer, and leave the management of the business in other respects to those concerned in it?

There is a great deal to be said for this suggestion. It has been considered, together with others, by the Advisory Committee of farmers and of wholesale and retail traders in milk, which was recently appointed by the Food Controller. The Committee have to-day presented a unanimous report to the Food Controller, who now has it under his consideration.

Can the hon. Gentleman state the purport of the unanimous report in favour of the suggestion contained in my question?

I am afraid that I must not do that, because the Food Controller has not yet decided whether he is prepared to act upon it.

Starch

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he has considered the advisability of restricting the use of starch, having regard to the foodstuffs from which it is manufactured; and, if so, whether any instruction will be issued which would help to discourage men and women from wearing starched garments?

The effect of two recent Orders of the Food Controller is to prohibit the manufacture of starch from cereals, except under licence. This does not prevent the use of stocks of starch manufactured before the dates specified in these Orders. Licences for further manufacture are being issued to a limited extent only for laundry purposes. The stoppage of starch production at the source will, in fact, in due course prevent persons wearing starched garments, without the necessity of any special instruction.

Yes, certainly; it is thought that potential food should nowadays be used for interior rather than for exterior clothing.

I cannot give any exact estimate. It is very difficult to be precise in any estimate, but it will be considerable.

Can the hon. Gentleman state definitely, for the benefit of the public, that it is unpatriotic to wear starched linen in war-time?

I venture to say that even Beau Brummel would, in existing conditions, accept the position with patriotic resignation.

Rations System (Scotland)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether the campaign in the country to induce the people voluntarily instead of compulsorily to adopt the rations system has been entrusted to the War Savings Committees; and, if so, will he say whether this is to be so in Scotland, in view of the fact that the War Savings Committee there have not the faculty of deputing any of their work, but want to do it all themselves?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I do not understand the hon. Member's suggestion that the Scottish War Savings Committee have not the faculty of delegating any of their work On the contrary they have acted throughout in co-operation with the Patriotic Food League in Scotland; and, in conjunc- tion with the city authorities in Edinburgh, Glasgow, and other important centres, they have set up special local committees for the furtherance of the Food Economy Campaign.

Is my hon. Friend aware that one of the greatest difficulties in carrying out the voluntary rationing campaign is that many millions of people in this country are not yet persuaded that there is a serious shortage of food; is he further aware that this is due to the manner in which shipping losses are being made public, that the number of ships without the tonnage is not enough, and that if the facts were published in a more graphic manner the system of voluntary rationing might suffice?

Certainly there is a shortage, and every effort is being made to bring home that fact to every class throughout the country. The suggestion of the hon. Member will be borne in mind with a view to bringing it home to a greater extent than at present.

Pickled Herring

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether the 75,000 barrels of pickled herring are still lying under embargo of his Department at Stornoway; and, if not, will he say whether they have been forwarded for consumption in this country and with what result?

The answer to the first part of this question is in the affirmative. An 0executive committee is now being set up by the Food Controller to make arrangements for the distribution of these stocks.

Beer

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food, with reference to his Order which expires on 31st March, 1917, whether any brewers overbrewed; if so, what penalties have been assessed upon them in respect of such overbrewing; and whether such penalties have been paid?

A few brewers overbrewed, and the question of taking proceedings is under consideration.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, having regard to the fact that by the reduction of the amount of beer available for the public an increase in the consumption of bread or other cereal food is certain to occur, and to the fact that no information is available regarding the period during which beer will continue to be available for consumption, supplies of malt will be provided from the end of November for the production of the balance of about 3,334,000 standard barrels to complete the 10,000,000 barrels authorised; whether brewers holding a sufficient supply of malt to complete the brewing of their proportion of the 10,000,000 barrels will be at liberty to brew and sell such proportion at any time up to the 31st March, 1918; and, if so, when a list of brewers licensed to brew for the Army Canteen Committee in excess of the 10,000,000 barrels, with the number of barrels licensed to each brewer in such list, will be published?

The continuance of brewing after November will depend upon the conditions then prevailing. It is impossible to predict now what these conditions will be. The quantities of malt at present held by individual brewers bear no direct relation to the quantities of beer which they are authorised to brew, but machinery has been established with the approval of the Food Controller which, it is hoped, will ensure that those who have more than their requirements should hand over their surplus to those who have less. It is not intended to grant licences for the brewing of beer for the Army Canteen Committee in excess of the 10,000,000 barrels authorised for the whole country.

Maize

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that the new Regulation issued with reference to the use of maize will compel several factories, employing thousands of workers, to close down this week; is he aware that none of the products are used for brewing purposes, but that 68 per cent. is syrup, 2½ per cent. oil, and 24 per cent. is used for feeding milch cows; and will he, under these circumstances, relax the Regulations and give an extension of one month, as in the case of dog-biscuit factories, so that the employés may not be suddenly discharged and the trade generally disorganised?

I am not quite tire what factories the hon. Member has in mind. There is no intention at present to prevent the use of maize for the purpose of making glucose or other products intended for human consumption. Licences will, in special cases, be issued if full particulars are furnished.

Whitsuntide School Treats

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if his prohibition of Whitsuntide school treats extends so far as to prohibit gatherings of school children in fields for purposes of play and amusement and the consumption there of buns and tea co-operatively provided by their parents and teachers; and, if so, by what means does he intend to enforce his prohibition?

The Food Controller has not prohibited Whitsuntide school treats; he has merely advised their discontinuance. The second part of the question does not therefore arise. It must not be assumed, in the absence of actual prohibition, that the Food Controller countenances under present conditions the consumption of breadstuffs by children beyond their usual domestic allowance at organised entertainments of this character.

Horse Feed

(by Private Notice) asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if the licence referred to in the Royal Proclamation giving permission to feed certain horses is to extend to horses used on all work of national importance?

An Order is about to be issued prohibiting the feeding of oats and other cereal foodstuffs to horses, but providing for the exemption therefrom of certain specified classes, which will include agricultural horses and others engaged in heavy work of national importance?

Glasgow and Dunoon (Steamship Service)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the Clyde steamers running between Glasgow and Dunoon have been ordered by his Department to cease running; if so, whether this Order is due to their intention of commandeering these steamers in the future; if so, can he permit the steamers to ply until actually wanted by the Department; and is he aware that there are six or more steamers lying at Bowling unused which would serve his purpose more thoroughly and at a cheaper rate, without further penalising the coast districts so heavily affected already by the War?

Yes, Sir. The river steamer service down the Clyde has been stopped by the Admiralty. If I have not already done so, I can give my hon. Friend the reason. I have already communicated with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller with regard to whether all the vessels to which my hon. Friend refers are likely to be taken over for Government service. I fully appreciate the desirableness of continuing, if possible and practicable, the facilities which this service offers to the Clyde workers for relaxation and recuperation, and I am doing my best to make arrangements whereby some sort of opportunity may continue to be offered.

Is not this prohibition due to the fact that the Shipping Controller gave permission for these vessels to run and the Commander at Ardrossan was annoyed and prohibited them? Is it not mere jealousy?

No; the reason is a perfectly sound Service reason, behind which I cannot go.

Palestine

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any pledges have been given to France or Italy which might impede the establishment of an independent and integral Jewish Palestine under American or British protection?

I am afraid that I cannot answer questions as to any pledges which may or may not have been given to our Allies about the terms of peace.

Jamaica (Emigration to Cuba)

asked the Secretary or State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the amount of emigration of Jamaicans to Cuba; whether he will ascertain whether the economic conditions prevailing in Cuba are such as to attract labour from Jamaica; and, if so, whether he will have inquiry made as to the possibilities of extending to the West Indies economic advantages similar to those which Cuba enjoys with the United States?

I am aware that there is considerable temporary migration of Jamaicans to Cuba and some permanent emigration. It is to be inferred that the economic conditions in Cuba are attractive. As regards the last part of the question, if my hon. Friend intends to suggest that West Indian products should receive preferential treatment in the United Kingdom, that is a matter which is not possible to consider until the end of the War.

Volunteer Force (Gazetting of Officers)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the delay which has occurred in the gazetting of the names of officers of the Volunteer Force; and whether he can take any special steps to clear off arrears and to expedite future appointments?

I am afraid that some delay is inevitable in connection with the inauguration of a new Force of this magnitude in securing that the requisite details of nominations are correctly rendered and verified. Since 1st September, however, over 8,000 nominations have been submitted, and 6,700 have been gazetted, exclusive of promotions, resignations and transfers. It has been possible recently to expedite matters, and I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend all arrears will be cleared up in the near future.

Could not the hon. Gentleman arrange for a special Gazette or some other means to get rid of the arrears?

Military Service

Review of Exceptions

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether men who have passed the age of forty-one are being called up for re-examination under the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act, contrary to the provisions of that Act; and whether the Army Council will issue instructions to recruiting officers that such men cannot be legally called up?

If the hon. Member refers to paragraph 23 of the Army Council Instruction No. 640 of 1917, a copy of which has recently been placed in the Library of the House, he will find that explicit instructions have been issued on the point he raises in his question. Any man who received a statutory Order and who has passed the age of forty-one, or becomes forty-one before the "appointed date," i.e., the 30th day after the date of the statutory Order, can make a claim to this effect on the back of the Order, a copy of which will be found in Appendix II. of the Instruction above referred to.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether men who have been wounded in action and have been discharged from the Army as unfit on account of wounds are being called up for re-examination under the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act; and whether the Army Council will issue instructions that such men cannot be legally called up?

If the hon. Member will refer to the notes on the face of a statutory Order, a copy of which is printed as Appendix II. to the Army Council Instruction No. 640, he will find that the point he raises has been fully met.

Apart from that, can my hon. Friend say why the War Office should not themselves know which men have been discharged as disabled and refrain from sending notices under the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act to these men to go up again for medical examination?

The present method of procedure does not entail any trouble to the man called up. If he signs the form on the back of the notice sent to him, that is all that is required.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether disabled soldiers in receipt of pensions are being called up for re-examination under the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act, and being put to the trouble and inconvenience of producing evidence concerning their degree of disablement; and whether he will cause the recruiting officers in such cases to get the men's, record from Chelsea or whether he will issue instructions to prevent this scandal?

Recruiting officers, are in many cases not in a position to know that a man to whom they issue a statutory Order is a disabled soldier and excepted from the Act. On receipt of a statutory Order all a disabled soldier has to do is to fill in the claim printed on the back of the Order to the effect that he is a disabled soldier and return it to the recruiting officer by whom it was issued. Full instructions are being issued to recruiting officers that in all cases where disabled soldiers return the statutory Order and claim to be excepted from the provisions of the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act, 1917, their documents are to be obtained from the Ministry of Pensions, Chelsea, before any further action is taken.

Does not my hon. Friend really think that the man who is discharged and in receipt of a pension should be free from any further communication from the War Office, and that the onus of proving that he is not liable to be called up should not rest upon the man in receipt of a pension, but on the War Office who call him up?

I have already told my hon. Friend that I think the disabled man is very fairly treated. If this, notice is sent to him, all he has to do is to sign the form on the back of the notice.

In order to make this matter clear, may I ask the hon. Gentleman if it is the proper function of the War Office and their established practice to notify disabled men that they are to attend and be called up or not?

No. Nobody knows better than my right hon. Friend that the War Office have no particular information as to the reason for a man being discharged from the Army. He may have been invalided out because of disablement or ill-health. The only body who have really got the accurate information are the Chelsea Commissioners.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that papers calling up men for medical re-examination have been left at the late residence of disabled soldiers who have died from their wounds, and is it not possible to prevent instances of that kind occurring?

asked if he can state how many conscientious objectors are now under charge at Princetown, and what are the different forms of work on which they are engaged; is road making in Devonshire work necessary for the carying on of the War; and, if it is not necessary on that account, why are some men supposed to be doing national war work so employed?

There are at present 873 conscientious objectors under the control of the Committee on Employment of Conscientious Objectors at Princetown. They are engaged in agriculture and general farm work, the reclamation of land, rope making, mailbag making, and the upkeep of the prison buildings (including gasworks, waterworks, general building repairs, and the repair and manufacture of agricultural implements). As regards the latter part of the question, I am informed that some thirty-five men were employed for two or three days in the repair of a cart track giving access to a part of the moor where ploughing, manuring, and draining was to be done, and it may be necessary to make a few cart tracks giving access to parts of the moor where reclamation is to be carried out. The work is work of national importance, but is not connected in any way with the operations of the War.

asked the cost per week of the maintenance at Princetown of the conscientious objectors, the upkeep of the prison, and the payment of officials at Princetown?

I can only give an approximate estimate based on the expenditure in March. On this basis the weekly expenditure on the wages and maintenance of the 873 conscientious objectors now employed at Princetown is £670, or 15s. 4d. per head. The weekly cost of the upkeep of the prison is £65. The weekly cost of fuel is £80. The weekly cost of the officials retained there is £140.

Is any record kept of the value of the work done by these persons as a set-off against the cost?

asked if any of the families of the conscientious objectors at Princetown are in receipt of separation allowances; and, if so, are they on the same scale as the separation allowances made to the families of the ordinary British man who is fighting for his country?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second, the allowances are given in necessitous cases only, and must not exceed the scale that was in force for the dependants of soldiers last July, the scale not having been raised when the Army scale was raised.

Is it proposed that these men shall pay the money back when they are released?

asked the total amount of money paid by the Government in respect of railway fares for the conscientious objectors at Princetown?

asked what are the rations allowed to the conscientious objectors at Princetown at the present time; has any reduction ever been made in the rations formally allowed; and, if so, how much?

The daily rations issued at the present time to the men employed by the Committee on Employment of Conscientious Objectors at Princetown are as follows:

Will the hon. Gentleman consider the necessity of reducing the bread and flour ration to bring it at least as low as the voluntary rations in this country?

Whatever the Food Controller may recommend we shall be very glad to carry out.

Is it not a fact that 9 ozs. of bread is a trifle below the voluntary ration?

asked how many of the men now at Princetown condemned by courts-martial to imprisonment and released by the Central Committee on their agreeing to work have failed to carry out their undertaking; what punishment has been meted out to them; and, in cases not considered sufficiently serious to necessitate the men being sent back to carry out the balance of the original sentence or being called back to the Colours, what other punishments are imposed?

There may be many degrees of failure in carrying out an undertaking, and I can only give figures of cases which have been reported and punished. Of the men sent to Princetown by the Committee on Employment of Conscientious Objectors, nine have been sent back to prison or recalled to the Army or are now being recalled; fifteen have been awarded by the Committee various punishments from the stoppage of six weeks' pay downwards; and up to the fifth instant sixty-two punishments had been imposed by the manager under the summary powers conferred on him by No. 33 of the Rules recently laid on the Table.

asked how many policemen are in Princetown; and if they are responsible for the maintenance of law and order in Princetown and its vicinity?

I understand that there is one police constable stationed at Princetown. He has the usual duties of a police constable in the matter of maintaining law and order.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will consider the advisability of having the cases of the conscientious objectors now at Princetown thoroughly re-examined in order to separate the frauds from the sincere conscientious objectors, as the Central Committee who passed these men for Civil service in no way guaranteed that they were genuine conscientious objectors?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave yesterday to the hon. Member for Wednesbury. The point which he mentions is one which will no doubt be considered by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is now satisfied that Norman's speech publicly delivered at the meeting of the Independent Labour Party held at Leeds on 9th April, in which he described himself as the representative of the most remarkable branch of the Independent Labour Party—namely, that of Dartmoor Prison—constituted a breach of the discipline rule framed by the Committee of Employment of Conscientious Objectors laying it down that public propaganda, whether by making speeches, taking part in processions or demonstrations, or otherwise, is forbidden; and, if so, whether Norman has yet been sent back to work out the remainder of his sentence of eighteen months' imprisonment with hard labour for refusing to obey military orders, a sentence following one of two years' detention for breach of military discipline; and, if not, will he explain the cause of delay?

I have endeavoured to obtain a verbatim report of what Norman said, but the police inform me that no such report exists. It is stated that there were fifty-nine resolutions on the agenda, that Norman was seated in the body of the hall and constantly got up and spoke without his name being announced. The reporters took notes only of the principal speakers and did not regard him as one of these. In these circumstances it is impossible to take any action against him, though I have no doubt that he violated the spirit, if not the letter, of the rules. As I have already stated, the stoppage of leave will prevent any repetition of the incident.

Will the hon. Gentleman take care to alter the rules, so that a breach of this kind may not occur again without the offender being punished?

Signal Service (Promotions)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the Committee appointed to inquire into the various conditions respecting promotion in the Army will cause evidence to be forthcoming from the Signal Training Centre, Royal Engineers, at Home, as compared with the system of promotion of officers in the Signal Service serving with the Expeditionary Forces; and whether the claims of fully-qualified officers attached to the training centre for duty who, owing to the exigencies of the Service, are debarred from proceeding overseas will come within the terms of reference by the Committee?

No, Sir. The officers attached to the Signal Training Centre at Home continue to be eligible for promotion in their units. If the hon. Member has some particular case in mind, and will let me know the details, I shall be in a better position to give him information.

Royal Field Artillery (Gunner Sim's Death)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the death of Gunner Charles Sim, No. 193261, Royal Field Artillery; whether he is aware that Sim was medically rejected for the Edinburgh University Officers' Training Corps in 1915; that he was again rejected in April, 1916; that he was given a month's respite in May, 1916; that in that month he was specially examined by, amongst others, Professor Lorne Gulland, one of Scotland's leading physicians, and certified unfit for military service; that he was re-examined on the 26th June and given another six months' respite; that he was again examined by Professor Gulland and again declared unfit on account of his overgrown and undeveloped condition, more specifically in his chest; that he was then examined by a medical board, including X-ray examination at Edinburgh Infirmary, and passed C 1; that he joined up on the 1st February, 1917, and was sent first to Maryhill and five days later to Piershill Barracks, Edinburgh; where he was placed A from C 1; that he received severe drill, was inoculated, and vaccinated; that he went home on four hours' leave on the 25th February with a severe influenza cold; that on the 26th February he was inoculated for typhoid; that on Sunday, 4th March, at 7 p.m., his father called at Piershill Barracks but could find neither captain nor doctor; that a soldier took him to the gymnasium, an iron-roofed building next to the North British Railway lines, where he found Gunner Sim lying on a straw bed on the floor, where he had been since Friday, 2nd March, with no one attending him except any comrade who cared to do anything for him; that Gunner Sim was in a pitiable condition due to retching and vomiting and had not been washed since he lay down; that when he had requested the corporal on the 3rd March to be placed in hospital the reply was "That is for us to decide"; that the father refused to leave the barracks until someone in a responsible position arrived, whereupon a soldier fetched the corporal; that on the 5th March Gunner Sum was removed to hospital in Edinburgh Castle suffering from double rupture by being allowed to lie unattended in the gymnasium at Piershill; that severe bronchial pneumonia supervened, followed by meningitis; and that he died on the 15th April; and whether, in view of all these circumstances, he will cause a strict inquiry to be held into all the circumstances, with a view to fixing the responsibility for such neglect upon the proper person, and will state what the nature of such inquiry will be?

I am afraid that the report which has been called for has not yet been received. I will not fail to inform my hon. Friend as soon as I am in a position to do so.

Air Services

Royal Flying Corps (Losses)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the reported losses of men and machines in the Royal Flying Corps include losses sustained by action or accident over our lines; and, if not, what is the number of such losses for the months of April and March?

All casualties in the Royal Flying Corps in the various theatres of operations are published in the casualty lists.

Royal Naval Air Service

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, in the recent singularly successful air battle, out of the forty enemy aeroplanes which the military communiqué stated were shot down, twenty-nine were brought down by a squadron of the Royal Naval Air Service attached to the Royal Flying Corps in France; and whether, under these circumstances, he will arrange that in future communiqués praise shall fall where praise is due?

Complete information is not provided by the military authorities in France as to the particular squadrons, which inflict casualties on the enemy. I can assure the House that the valuable services of the naval contingent serving with the Royal Flying Corps in France are fully recognised.

Questions

Royal Engineers (Inland Water Transport Service)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether any men are serving in the Inland Water Transport Service, Royal Engineers, as officers but who have not yet received their official commissions; and whether, in such cases, their pay and other emoluments follow their active rank?

In this, as in other branches of the Service, a certain time must elapse between their selection and the appearance of their commissions in the "Gazette," to which I assume my hon. Friend refers by "official commission." The officer is entitled to receive pay from the date of his commission, which would not be later than the date of assuming duty. Where hardship to the officer might be involved by waiting for pay until the "Gazette" appears, arrangements are made for his pay to be credited to him in anticipation.

Skerries Mail Service

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty if it has been brought to his notice that owing to scanty mail service between Skerries and the mainland men on leave have been unable to visit their homes; and if he would consider in such cases the possibility of giving them passage in the patrol boats?

I had no information regarding the suggestion made in the earlier part of the question until I received a communication upon the matter from my hon. Friend yesterday. That communication has been forwarded to the proper authorities. I am afraid we cannot undertake to detach patrol vessels from their proper work.

Inoculation

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War (1) whether Privates Dilthey and Noschke, of the 30th Middlesex Regiment, on refusing inoculation were tried by court-martial and sentenced, on 30th April, to one year's hard labour on a charge of wilfully making themselves unfit for service; whether such a charge can be preferred or such a sentence be inflicted for the exercise of a legal right; whether he will investigate these cases and, if he finds the facts as stated, at once quash the sentences; (2) if he is aware that a soldier in C company, 14th South Lancashire Regiment, stationed at Hemsby, Great Yarmouth, on being refused leave and week-end sleeping-out pass unless he consented to be vaccinated and inoculated, was informed by his captain that he had received from brigade headquarters orders to refuse all privileges, including leave, to unvaccinated and uninoculated men; whether the Army Council instruction in regard to this matter issued in November, 1916, has been rescinded; and, if not, whether they exercise any authority over brigade commanders and will have that instruction observed in this and other cases?

I have called for reports as to the matters raised in these two questions, and will inform my hon. Friend as soon as I am in a position to do so.

Wounded Soldiers (Deduction from Pay)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if wounded soldiers are charged 6d. per day for their keep while in hospital; and, seeing that these men have been wounded in fighting the battles of the Empire, his Department will see that this charge shall cease at once?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative, and the second part, therefore, does not arise.

Soldiers Killed (Deduction from Pay)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if 2s. is deducted from the pay of our soldiers who fall in battle for the blanket in which they are buried; and, if so, will he take steps to stop this charge and to see that our gallant dead are buried with decency in the clothes they wore when they fell?

No, Sir; no such charge is made. If my hon. Friend would furnish me with details of any case he may have in mind, I will have a full inquiry instituted. I have, on previous occasions, made it plain that no such charge is made, but I have never received particulars such as would enable me to ascertain if any mistake has occurred.

Seaforth Highlanders (Duke of Albany)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been directed to the fact that the "London Gazette" refers to the 1st Battalion of the Seaforth Highlanders as the Ross-shire Buffs, the Duke of Albany's; and whether, as His Royal Highness the present Duke of Albany, Earl of Clarence, and Baron Arklow, G.C.V.O., is now in arms against the Sovereign and the people of these countries and the military forces of the Crown, including the battalion of gallant men which bears his name, the stigma of his name will be immediately removed from the designations of the 1st Battalion of the Seaforth Highlanders?

The Duke of Albany, who was the original Colonel-in-Chief, was a son of Queen Victoria and a loyal subject of the Crown, and the regiment takes its designation from him. The present Duke is not the Colonel-in-Chief, and has no connection with the regiment. I therefore see no reason for altering the designation of the regiment, which has not expressed through its commanding officers any desire for a change in its title.

Is this regiment which is smirched by this name the regiment of my hon. Friend or of his country?

Teachers (Release for Army)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if his Department has taken steps to release from the Army, where practicable, teachers classed in categories below B 1; and whether any instructions have been issued to prevent the calling up of such men, in accordance with the agreement between the Army Council and the Board of Education referred to in Circular 983, of 19th February, 1917, issued by the Board of Education?

The necessary steps have been taken to release from the Army, where practicable, teachers classified lower than B 1. Instructions have been issued to recruiting officers as to the agreement with the Board of Education referred to.

Rum Ration

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the discrepancy in the method of distributing the rum ration at the front, some commanding officers allowing it to be distributed neat and so that it must be consumed in the presence of an officer and frequently early in the morning before breakfast, while in other cases the commanding officers will not allow such ration to be taken except under strict regulation as with tea or some other diluent, he will consider the desirability of issuing, in the interests of the health of the soldier, some definite instruction on the subject to be carried into effect whenever circumstances permit?

Rum is issued at the front at the discretion of the General Officer Commanding on the recommendation of the medical officer, and it is not proposed to interfere with this discretion. The method of distribution must obviously depend on the circumstances of each particular occasion.

Lieutenants Permanently Injured

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will consider the desirability of raising the rank of lieutenants permanently injured while on active service, and who are thereby eligible for pensions, to that of captain but without additional emolument, so that such officers may be designated as captains, a rank they would probbaly have attained had they not been permanently injured, and the attainment of which would probably be much appreciated as a mark of special recognition of their services; and if he will consider the desirability of conferring some special distinction upon men from the ranks who have suffered like injuries?

I am afraid that my hon. Friend's suggestion is not practicable. It would involve a consequential step in rank to every officer incapacitated under similar circumstances.

Remount Horses

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether his attention has been drawn to a resolution passed by the Gloucestershire Chamber of Agriculture to the effect that the present system of supervision over the treatment of remount horses results in a great waste of public money and horses, and also involves much cruelty and suffering to the horses themselves; and, if so, whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?

Yes, Sir. I have seen the resolution referred to, but as no details are given, the Gloucestershire Chamber of Agriculture has been asked to be good enough to state the grounds on which it was put forward.

Army Ordnance Foremen (War Bonus)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office why the foremen in the Army Ordnance Department at Dover are not being paid the 5s. per week war bonus granted since the 1st of April to all subordinate grades in their Department; whether he is aware that, although the foremen are pensionable servants and are paid overtime on a different scale from the subordinate grades, the total earnings of the latter are equal to or greater than the earnings of the foremen responsible for their work; whether he is aware that this circumstance is regarded as a slight upon the foremen which discredits them in the eyes of their subordinates and impairs the efficiency of the work; and whether he will take steps to provide that the war bonus be paid to foremen as well as to the other grades?

Naval and Military Pensions and Grants

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that separation allowances payable to the dependants of men in the Royal Flying Corps constantly do not commence to be paid until two or three months after men have joined up; whether he is aware that the wife of Second Air Mechanic Freestone, Royal Flying Corps, has now waited eight weeks since her husband joined up and has received nothing and is living on loans from the Yeovil War Pensions Committee; and will he see that such payments to the dependants of men in the Royal Flying Corps are made at least as soon as similar payments are made to the dependants of men in other branches of the Service?

The reply to the first part of the question is in the negative. I will cause inquiries to be made into the case of Mrs. Freestone, and I will inform my hon. Friend of the result.

Field Stores, Aldershot (Women's Wages)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that there are a number of married women employed at the Field Stores, Aldershot, who are only receiving 17s. per week wages; that discontent prevails in consequence; that the minimum rates for adult women in controlled and Government establishments, such as Woolwich Arsenal, Enfield Gun Factory, Gunwharf, Portsmouth, and the Royal dockyards, are 24s. per week; and whether he will take immediate steps to secure this minimum for the women employed at Aldershot?

The rates of pay at Woolwich and the other places mentioned are not applicable to other stations, but I will have the rates of pay at Aldershot inquired into.

Corn Production Bill (Labourers' Wages)

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture if he has received any communications from the branches of the Agricultural Labourers' Union regarding the standard of wages proposed in the Corn Production Bill and any communication from the Scottish Farm Servants' Union regarding the Bill as a whole; and whether he would be willing to receive a deputation from these unions before the Bill goes into Committee?

The Board have received resolutions from numerous branches of the National Agricultural Labourers' and Rural Workers' Union on the subject, but not from the Scottish Farm Servants' Union. The President, together with the Secretary for Scotland, would be willing to receive a deputation from the unions if they really desired it, though if their case can be adequately set out in writing he does not think that any useful purpose would be served by their coming to London.

Balkan Campaign

asked the Prime Minister whether he will appoint a small Commission to investigate in how far the success of the whole Balkan Campaign has been prejudiced and hitherto rendered nugatory by the desire to protect the dynastic principle against a republican movement; and whether he will proceed to the appropriate sanctions in whatever rank of society they may apply, and also advise a more active policy in the Balkans?

Dogs (Taxation)

asked the Prime Minister whether, in the contemplated legislation for the increased taxation of dogs, the War Cabinet will consider the advisability of introducing exemptions, or special limitations, in cases where the owners of the dogs are serving with the naval and military forces of the Crown in defence of the Sovereign and peoples of the Empire, and have suffered by wounds and illness in such service, in the cases of watch-dogs and sheep-dogs, of dogs employed in leading the blind from place to place, of dogs employed in collecting money for charitable and benevolent institutions, of dogs who have saved human lives from perishing by fire or by drowning, and of dogs whose companionship and friendship are essential to persons living alone?

Prize Money

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that at 31st March £9,437,630 had been received as prize money by the Prize Court, he can state what is the kind or character of the circumstances in which the proper officer of the Crown is directed not to apply for the condemnation and confiscation to the Crown of enemy property; and whether His Majesty's Government can see their way to apply in future for the condemnation and confiscation to the Crown of all enemy property in the Prize Court and to distribute the proceeds to the Navy as prize money in accordance with the late Queen Victoria's Proclamation of September, 1900.

The Procurator-General applies to the Prize Court for an Order of Condemnation and Confiscation to the Crown, and for such other Order as may be appropriate, in respect of all enemy property seized as prize unless, for reasons which it is impossible to state in general terms, His Majesty's Government may decide in a particular case that some other course should, in the public interest, be adopted. The Proclamation of September, 1900, was cancelled so far as concerns prize by the Order of His Majesty in Council of the 28th August, 1914.

Can the right hon. Gentleman hold out any prospect of the Navy getting their prize money within any reasonable time?

Budget Committee and Permanent Commissions

asked the Prime Minister whether, with a view to facilitating the discussion of the Motion standing in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Greenock, he will call for a Report on the operation of the Budget Committee and the permanent Commissions of the French Chamber, which deal with finance, public economy, and fiscal questions?

I understand that this subject will be discussed either to-day or on the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill, and perhaps my hon. Friend will wait till after that discussion.

Ireland (Ministerial Statement)

asked the Prime Minister whether he is yet able to announce the date on which the promised statement will be made concerning the negotiations that have been in progress with a view to an Irish settlement?

I am glad to learn that the hon. and learned Member for Waterford hopes to be able to be in his place in the House by the middle of next week, and as I understand that it is the wish of the party which he leads that he should be present, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister proposes to make his statement on Thursday of next week.

Salonika

asked the Prime Minister whether he is able to give the House any further information in regard to the position of affairs in Salonika?

The Prime Minister intends to refer to this subject at the private Session of the House tomorrow.

Tobacco Duty

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if his attention has been caled to the action of the big profiteering tobacco firms in fixing a price on tobacco over and above the tax intended by him; if he will see that the people who quite willingly pay the increased tax are not to be further exploited by profiteers; is he aware that profits over and above the proper tax on matches are still being obtained from the British public; and if he will see that prices of tobacco and matches are adjusted so as to meet the tax, and thereby protect the public from being robbed?

Nothing has been brought to my notice to show that either in the case of tobacco or matches the trade generally is making undue profits. It must be borne in mind that in the case of both articles there are many factors, apart from the duty, that legitimately affect retail prices.

Solicitors (Qualification of Women) Bill

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Government will give an opportunity of discussing the Solicitors (Qualification of Women) Bill, which has already passed the other House without a Division?

As this is a private Bill, I regret that the Government cannot give it facilities.

Will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider that decision if he receives a memorial on the subject?

As the House knows, the decision was taken that we should not have private Members' Bills.

Sparrows (Destruction)

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture (1) whether, if children are to be employed in the destruction of sparrows, he will see that such destruction by school children is confined to bird's-nesting and prevent any reward being offered for the heads or bodies of dead birds, old or young; whether he has received from teachers or from Others protests against being asked officially to engage in destroying their moral influence and undoing their educational work by teaching their pupils the art of killing; (2) whether the communication urging the formation of sparrow clubs throughout the country, but advising that school children shall not be employed in the destruction of sparrows except under the supervision of their school teachers, was issued by the Department without his knowledge or consent; and, if so, whether he will at once withdraw it so far as it relates to the teachers and children?

The President has not received protests from teachers and others in the sense suggested by the hon. Member. The Memorandum was issued with his knowledge and consent, and it is not proposed to withdraw it

Can the right hon. Gentleman account for the fact that no recommendation has been made?

Jena Glass

asked the First Commissioner of Works whether the description "Jena" has always referred in the glass trade to glass coming from the town of that name; and whether he is aware that firms who have been required to quote for such glass have been under the impression that specifications for Jena glass only applied to glass manufactured in that town, and not to any imitation?

The description "Jena" undoubtedly formerly referred to glass coming from the town of that name, but since the outbreak of war the term has been generally recognised by firms who have been asked to quote for such glass as defining a glass possessing special heat-resisting qualities—in fact, three out of the five tendering firms, including one of the successful tenderers, struck the word "Jena" out of the specification. Having regard to the fact that the importation of the products of enemy countries has been prohibited by the Government, it is inconceivable that after nearly three years of war any firm could have been under the impression that enemy-made glass was required.

Does that necessarily apply to cases where glass might have been imported from some neutral country?

asked the name of the firm which received the order for Jena glass for which the Board of Works called for tenders?

The names of the firms in question are Messrs. Falk, Stadelmann and Company, of Farringdon Road, and Messrs. G. Hands and Company, also of Farringdon Road.

Hides and Pelts (Contract Prices)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War why no increase has been made in the contract price paid to butchers for hides taken by the Government for Army purposes while the price of cattle has risen by 30 per cent.; why a reduction has been made of 25 per cent. in the price paid for pelts; why the butcher receives the same price as in last year for sheep skins while the farmer gets an increase of 15 per cent. for his wool clip; and whether it is proposed to remedy these inequalities and place the butcher on the same plane as the farmer?

These matters are being considered, and I am not in a position to announce a decision at present.

Rebellion in Ireland (Prisoners at Lewes)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what privileges, if any, are granted to the Irish prisoners at Lewes; if he will say whether the Countess Marckievicz is allowed the same concessions; if he will allow her medical attendant to visit and report on her health; and if he will say when the Government propose to release her?

I have nothing to add to replies given to the hon. Member's question on 20th February and to other questions on the subject.

Is it the intention of the Government to starve these people? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that three or four of them have been released through ill-health in the last month?

The hon. Member will make a mistake if he is under the impression that they are being starved.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that one or two of the men have been reduced four stones in weight in twelve months? Is not that starvation?

asked the Home Secretary if he is aware that the treatment of the Irish prisoners at Lewes is causing anxiety to their relatives in Ireland; if he is aware that for want of sufficient nourishing food the prisoners have lost in weight, and that in one case a prisoner was reduced four stone during his first year in prison; if he will say whether the demands by America for political treatment of the Irish prisoners will be considered; and if he will order their release?

With regard to the health and diet of these prisoners generally, I would refer the hon. Member to the written answer which I gave yesterday to the hon. Member for North Westmeath. The prisoners have sufficient nourishing food, and it is not the fact that they have lost in weight; on the contrary, most of them have gained in weight. One prisoner has lost three stone in weight, but as he weighed 15 st. 8 lbs. on reception at Dartmoor, and is still 16 lbs. above the average weight for a man of his height, this change would seem to indicate an improvement in his health. With regard to the last two paragraphs of the question, I have nothing to add to previous replies.

In view of the fact that the detention of these prisoners is governed by political considerations, have the Government considered the advisability of a general amnesty, so as to set public opinion here right with America?

Cotton Spinning (Preston Tribunal)

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the proceedings at Preston Borough Tribunal about the review of exemptions of mule piecers; whether he has consulted or will consult the certifying surgeons as to the effect, detrimental or otherwise, of the occupation of mule piecing on women in pregnancy; and whether he proposes to take any action with regard to women following this occupation?

I have not seen any report of the proceedings referred to by the hon. Member. Women have been employed in this occupation for very many years in various parts of Lancashire and Yorkshire without injurious effects of the kind suggested, and I am advised that there is no medical objection to such employment. In the opinion of the Government the process is one in which, in the present emergency, women should be employed wherever necessary for the purpose of releasing men for military service and maintaining the industry, and in some districts this is already being done by arrangement between the operatves' and employers' associations.

Mercantile Marine (Navigating and Engineer Officers)

asked the Parliamentary secretary to the Shipping Controller if his attention has been called to the difficulty that shipowners experience in obtaining navigating and engineer officers in sufficient numbers; and whether he will confer with the Board of Trade with a view to organising, through the shipping offices or otherwise, a better system for bringing together shipowners who have vacancies and officers and engineers who are seeking employment?

My right hon. Friend the Shipping Controller is not aware of any difficulty in obtaining navigating and engineer officers for British ships, or of any need for special arrangements other than those already existing for bringing together owners and officers, but if my hon. Friend has any special case in mind it will be given careful consideration in conjunction with the Board of Trade.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that letters have been received by his Department from various shipping companies, complaining of the difficulty of getting officers, and will he make inquiries on the subject?

Yes. One or two inquiries have arrived. I am dealing with the whole case myself. It is not a general case at all.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Board of Trade, by a circular issued to shipowners last month, requested them to dispense with one or more engineers of their engine-room staffs on board ship, and is he aware of the inconvenience and discontent that has been created thereby?

I am quite aware of the issue of the circular. It has no bearing on this subject. It is an endeavour to obtain engineers for another purpose.

Boat-Lowering Tackle

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is endeavouring to secure the use of boat-lowering tackle ensuring the delivery upon the sea on a comparatively even keel; and how many, if any, of such devices, mechanical or otherwise, has the Board licensed or has it knowledge of?

Special arrangements are made for inspecting and testing any new type of boat-lowering gear intended for use on British ships. Five types of apparatus have been approved.

Has the hon. Gentleman received a communication from the Admiralty on the subject?

Munitions

Labour Unrest

(by Private Notice) asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can make any statement with reference to labour unrest in Lancashire and in certain other industrial centres?

I will answer together this and a question of the hon. Member for Attercliffe to the Minister of Munitions.

There is unfortunately a considerable amount of unrest amongst certain sections of the engineering trade. The ground, so far as it was publicly stated, for this unrest during the early part of last week, was in connection with the action of a firm in Rochdale, who had refused to accept the terms of the Munitions of War Act, and to recognise the trade unions representatives. This matter was adjusted on Saturday last, and the firm's employés have returned to work.

During last week it began to be stated that the unrest was also a form of protest against the new Schedule of protected occupations which is designed to replace the original trade card arrangement. An arrangement had been come to on this subject with all the trade unions, excepting that of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, who agreed to accept the working of the Schedule on Saturday last after considerable negotiations, subject to the conditions which have already been made public, and which are applicable to all the unions concerned. It is quite impossible for the Government to be a party to preferential treatment of any particular union. The men whom it is necessary to protect for munitions and other essential industries are those who are possessed of the requisite skill, and the exemption must rest on this basis only.

On Saturday night the delegates of the engineers sent out a telegram urging their members to continue at work. Notwithstanding this, in various places, the men still remain on strike, and a number of others have come out.

Towards the end of last week a further ground for the unrest was stated to be the Munitions of War Amendment Bill now before the House.

These strikes are quite unauthorised and unsupported by the executives of the different trade unions, and the Government is satisfied that they mainly arise from the activities of a number of men who appear to be as much interested in upsetting the authority of the established trade unions as in causing embarrassment to the nation in time of war.

After most careful inquiries, the Government are fully satisfied that the great majority of the men are unaware of the real nature of the case and of the cause of the strike in which they have been induced to participate, and are anxious to continue the work which they have hitherto so loyally performed. From the evidence before them, the Government are convinced that this agitation is one which is disowned and reprobated by responsible leaders of the trade unions with which the Government has made agreement. Any action which is felt to be necessary must be taken without delay against those who are responsible for this interference with the output of munitions so urgently required by our troops in the field.

A statement is being issued in regard to the effect of the Munitions of War Bill, and the Schedule of exempted occupations which has been substituted for the trade card scheme.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether steps have been taken to draw the attention of the people directly affected to what the Munitions Bill really does do?

Yes, Sir. I stated in the last part of the answer I have just given that such a statement is being issued.

Gas Burners

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in regard to upright and inverted gas burners, provision is made by the Board of Trade to see that British manufacturers are provided with the necessary tube and sheet metal; whether for this purpose the class A Ministry of Munitions certificates are granted to manufacturers; and whether the Ministry of Munitions has ignored many requests to provide the certificates for this production?

I have been asked to reply to this question. Owing to the shortage for war requirements of sheet metal and of copper and its alloy brass it is not possible for the Ministry of Munitions to grant permits for supplying manufacturers for the purpose referred to in the question.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Board of Trade Import Department has granted a general licence for the import of upright and inverted gas burners from the United States of America; and whether he will state what is the name of the firm in the United States which provided the Board of Trade with these burners?

The general licence referred to is being withdrawn as from 15th May. As no general licence is limited to the products of any particular firm, and as the Board of Trade do not purchase gas burners I am afraid I do not understand the latter part of the question.

Conviction for Theft (Greenwich)

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to the case of Arthur Peters, a boy of sixteen, who was sentenced on 2nd May at Greenwich Police Court to two months' imprisonment with hard labour for theft; whether there were any special circumstances in the case to justify such a sentence; and, if not, whether he will advise its remission or reduction?

The Home Office had not heard of this case. I am having inquiry made and will let the hon. Member know the result.

Rabbit Coursing

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that at Caerphilly and other places in South Wales rabbit-coursing meetings are held almost weekly; that such meetings are cruel and cause unnecessary pain upon dumb animals; and if he will at once end these proceedings?

I have no information about these meetings, but in any case the Home Secretary has no authority to intervene. The Protection of Animals Act, 1911, does not apply to coursing unless the animal is liberated in an injured, mutilated or exhausted condition.

Prison Regulations (Religious Ministrations)

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the regulations of the Prison Commissioners which allow members of the Church of England to have the benefit of the services of a chaplain of their own faith, and similar privileges to Roman Catholics and to a number of Nonconformists, but allow no liberty to prisoners who are not attached to any specific denomination to have visits from any chaplain except the chaplains of the Church of England; and whether he will take steps to secure a more equal treatment of religious convictions in this respect?

The prison rules make full provision for a prisoner having the services of a minister of any denomination to which he may claim to belong. If the hon. Member can give me any specific instance where such provision is lacking I will make inquiry.

I expressly directed attention to those who do not belong to any denomination. Is special provision made by which they can get some kind of spiritual and moral help if they do not belong to any denomination?

Message from the Lords

That they have agreed to,—

National Insurance (Part I. Amendment) Bill,

Societies (Suspension of Meetings) Bill,

Land Drainage (Ramsey) Provisional Order Bill, without Amendment.

That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise the Urban District Council of Bedwas and Machen to provide and run omnibuses; to confer further powers on the council with respect to the supply of water; and for other purposes." [Bedwas and Machen Urban District Council Bill [Lords.]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise the Urban District Council of Caerphilly to provide and run omnibuses; and for other purposes." [Caerphilly Urban District Council Bill [Lords.]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer further powers upon the North Cheshire Water Company; and for other purposes." [North Cheshire Water Bill [Lords.]

Aso, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer further powers upon the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the borough of Ashton-under-Lyne with regard to their tramway and electricity undertakings; to make further provision with reference to the purchase of the undertaking authorised by The Oldham, Ashton-under-Lyne, Hyde, and District Electric Tramways Order, 1896; and for other purposes." [Ashton-under-Lyne Corporation Bill [Lords.]

And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act for incorporating and conferring powers on the Kenilworth Gas Company; and for other purposes." [Kenilworth Gas Bill [Lords.]

Orders of the Day

Business of the House

Secret Session (Procedure)

I desire to ask the Leader of the House two questions with regard to the procedure at to-morrow's sitting. Can he give us any indication of the principle on which subjects for discussion tomorrow will be selected; and, secondly, whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that by the procedure of this year one of the two days for the public discussion of the Vote of Credit is withdrawn, and whether in view of that fact he will give another day in place of tomorrow for the public discussion of the Report of the Vote of Credit?

No, Sir. At the time the Government agreed to a private Session I stated exactly in what form it would be taken, and I understood that the House accepted the arrangement as reasonable. There will be two other occasions, the Second and Third Readings of the Consolidated Fund Bill, on which the same subjects discussed to-morrow can be discussed. The order of business must largely depend on those called on to speak, but I hope that the Debate will take such a form that the important subjects will be mainly discussed.

Will the Government make a statement at the beginning of the business to-morrow?

I hope that that will not be the course. I think that by far the best course would be to have some speeches indicating the points on which information is wanted, so that the Prime Minister may reply.

What is the intention with regard to the Eleven o'Clock Rule in the secret Debate?

Will the right hon. Gentleman exercise his influence to secure that the speeches will be as short as possible?

All that I can promise is that if I am compelled to take part, I shall follow that advice.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of permitting a certain number of questions to be asked before the Debate starts in Secret Session, so that any Members who do not want to speak may be able to get replies?

The Government did consider that, but we thought on the whole it would not be advisable. I hope that the House will not press it.

If it should be decided to have a second day, will that day be Friday.

Supply

Supplementary Vote of Credit, 1917–18

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £500,000,000, be granted to his Majesty, beyond the ordinary Grants of Parliament, towards defraying the Expenses which may be incurred during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1918, for General Navy and Army Services in so far as specific provision is not made therefor by Parliament; for the conduct of Naval and Military Operations; for all measures which may be taken for the Security of the Country; for assisting the Food Supply, and promoting the Continuance of Trade, Industry, Business and Communications, whether by means of insurance or indemnity against risk, the financing of the purchase and re-sale of foodstuffs and materials, or otherwise; for Relief of Distress; and generally for all expenses, beyond those provided for in the Ordinary Grants of Parliament, arising out of the existence of a state of war."— [Mr. Bonar Law.]

I rise to propose the Vote of Credit that has been announced to the House. The first Vote of Credit for this financial year was moved on the 12th February, and was for a sum of £350,000,000. The Vote for which I am now asking the assent of the House is for £500,000,000. This is the largest sum which has ever been asked for in a single Vote. The nearest approach to it was a sum of £450,000,000, which was moved in July of last year, but that Vote was intended to carry us through the Recess. The House naturally may ask why I have put down so large an amount at the present time, but I hope when I have given the explanation they will consider that the amount is reasonable and essential. In order to give the explanation I must examine the expenditure so far this year out of the first Vote of Credit. That Vote of Credit was expected to carry us over till the end of the present month. The expenditure, however, has so much exceeded the anticipations that there was on Saturday last an unexpended balance of only £89,000,000, which, at the same rate of expenditure, will carry us only till the Saturday of next week. The amount expended out of that Vote of Credit is £261,000,000, and it is allocated as follows: Army, Navy, and Munitions, £173,000,000; Allies and Dominions, £68,000,000, of which only £4,000,000 went to the Dominions, and miscellaneous £20,000,000, making a total of £261,000,000, as I stated. But the alarming feature of these figures is that this total represents a daily average expenditure of £7,450,000. The House will remember that only a day or two ago I estimated the daily expenditure out of the Vote of Credit for the whole year at about £5,500,000. There is, therefore, an excess in the first period of this year of expenditure of just about £2,000,000.

I need not say that when my attention was drawn to these figures, I immediately had a most complete examination made into the expenditure of the first period of this year. I did that not only for the purpose of finding out what the expenditure had been, but also for this reason, that if in the very beginning of the new financial year the expenditure is exceeded to such an extent at this, it seems, on the face of it, probable that the whole Estimate has been wrong, and that the expenditure will be much higher. I had that examination made, and I shall give the House the results of it. In the first place, of the expenditure for the thirty-five days from the 1st April to the 5th May, £2,000,000 per day is represented by advances to our Allies and Dominions, but the amount estimated for this purpose in the Budget was only £400,000,000, or approximately £1,000,000 per day. The House will see, therefore, that there is at once an explanation of the excess to the extent of £1,000,000. Now, in regard to this, everyone understands that during the period which I am now reviewing we had no financial help from our American Allies. I am glad to say, however, as regards this item, that it is not merely a question of hope, but a question of knowledge. The American Government, with a promptitude for which we cannot be too grateful, has not only promised, but has actually afforded financial assistance to the Allies. I think, therefore, that I am justified in assuming that the Estimate in the Budget is not too low. Indeed, I hope that as much as this may not be required. That, therefore, reduces the excess by £1,000,000.

4.0 P.M.

There is another item which also reduces it. The House, I am sure, understands that the figures which are given when Votes of Credit are moved do not represent and cannot represent the real expenditure which is only found out many months afterwards. All that can be given on such an occasion as this is a statement of the amount actually paid out at home, and also of the amounts telegraphed as paid by the financial sub-agents abroad, but that does not at all represent the real expenditure. The examination which has been made, and which has been applied to all the Departments—for it was necessary to find out the real explanation of this increase—gave this result. There is an amount of £30,000,000 in this period which cannot be regarded as representing normal expenditure. That amount is made up in this way. I found out that the sub-agents, who disburse this money, had a very large excess of balances as compared with the previous time, in their hands. There is also another very large item, that is the advances made for the Dominions, which will come back during the current year. This has nothing to do with the advances which are referred to in the statement of the Vote of Credit. What happens is that expenses of the Dominions Forces are paid by us here at home and are reimbursed by the Dominions Governments. As it happens, in April we paid out and did not receive anything. The receipts will come in due course so that that cannot be regarded as real expenditure. If we put these items together, the £1,000,000 in regard to the advances to our Allies and the £30,000,000 spread over this period, which represents about £850,000 a day, and deduct from the total expenditure this £1,850,000, it makes a daily expenditure of £5,600,000 as against the Budget Estimate of about £5,500,000.

So that the amount is not so much in excess as the figures at first lead one to suppose. I would like to point out in addition—and this is, of course, well known to anyone who has followed closely these financial transactions—that for a period so short as this, dealing with such large sums of money, it is impossible that the Estimate can represent the expenditure over the whole year. For instance, I had presented to me, as has every Chancellor of the Exchequer, the weekly expenditure out of the Votes of Credit. During the five weeks now ending it has varied between £44,000,000 and £62,000,000—that is to say, one week has exceeded another by as much as £18,000,000. The House, therefore, will readily understand that the average for a short period is not in itself quite so sure a guide as would be an average taken over the longer period. After making this examination, I have come to the conclusion—though I am not very sanguine that he same experience which has happened in almost every case since the War will not happen now and that the Estimate will not be exceeded—that there is no reason at this stage to assume that the Budget Estimate may not be approximately accurate as regards the expenditure out of the Vote of Credit. It has been my custom, as it was that of my right hon. Friend the late Prime Minister, in moving these Votes of Credit, to give the total amount of expenditure out of them since the War began. As these figures were given so recently, I think it would waste the time of the House if I repeated them now.

Could the right hon. Gentleman give the total expenditure from the beginning of the War?

I do not for the moment remember the figure, but I can get it. There is one set of figures which I will give the House. It is not a very pleasant set, because it shows how rapidly our expenditure has been increased. For the period covered by the first Vote of Credit last year the total amount of daily expenditure was £4,820,000. This year in the period I have spoken of it has been £7,450,000. Our advances to our Allies and the Dominions in the period covered by the first Vote last year were £1,490,000; and in the corresponding period this year, approximately, £2,000,000. The largest increase, as might be expected, was in the Army, Navy, and munitions. The daily expenditure in the first period of last year for these was £2,980,000, and for the first period of this year £4,940,000. With this preliminary explanation I will tell the House why I am asking for a Vote of £500,000,000. Though the amount is so large, as regards the time over which it is to apply, I am following exactly the precedents, not only of last year, but of the previous years. On both of these occasions, up to the time of the Recess, there were three Vote of Credit. The House will easily see that if we allowed the present Vote of Credit to last only, say, until the middle of July, the result would be that we should require, not only a new Vote of Credit, but also a separate Consolidated Fund Bill a week or two before the ordinary Appropriation Bill comes out. There would consequently be from this cause, a waste of Parliamentary time. I think, therefore, the House will see that it is only right that this Vote should be large enough to carry us on until that period.

About the 1st of August. Looked at from this point of view I find that from 19th May to the first Saturday in August there are seventy-eight days. If the rate of expenditure be £6,400,000 per day, this Estimate will carry us to that period. Of course, it is evident that if the Budget Estimate were right, if the figure came down to £5,500,000, the amount is larger than necessary. But in view of the explanations which I have given in respect to the uncertainty of the amount which must be advanced to our Allies—though I hope—and I think with good reason—that we shall not he called upon to make advances for that cause for their expenses in America—we shall be required to make them advances for articles purchased in this country—in view of the uncertainty of this, and for another reason I have indicated, that you never can tell at what period the money that is due will come back to the Treasury, I am sure it would not be safe to put down so low a figure as £450,000,000 if we desire to avoid a second Vote of Credit and a second Consolidated Fund Bill. On the other hand, I do not feel quite certain that we will be saved this inconvenience even by the £500,000,000. We cannot foresee expenditure any more than anything else in connection with the War. In spite of that, however, I do not think I would be justified in asking the House to vote a larger sum than the figure I have named, and we must take the risk of inconvenience arising. I certainly do not expect it. With this explanation I hope that the House will consider, as I have said, that the course which I have recommended is reasonable in itself, and the best under the circumstances, and meets the convenience, not only of the Government, but of the House of Commons.

In speaking on the Budget, my right hon. Friend the Member for Monmouthshire (Mr. McKenna) expressed the hope, the very reasonable hope, that the entry of America into the War would make a change in this constantly rising expenditure. He pointed out, quite correctly, that the increased cost had been largely due to the growing purchases in America —purchases made under ordinary market conditions, when, as our demands increased, prices rose against us. He therefore expressed the hope that now that America was our Ally, it might be possible to take steps similar to those which have been taken in this country. Without these, I need not tell the House, that heavy as our expenditure is, it is nothing to what it would have been if we had relied entirely upon market conditions. The right hon. Gentleman expressed the hope that some action of the same kind might be taken in the United States. I need not tell him, or the House, that that seems to us not only a reasonable hope, but that the Mission which is now in America has it as one of the objects of its journey. They have received every encouragement from the United States. In that connection I cannot refrain from saying a word or two about the entry of the United States. Our German enemies have shown an energy, an organising power, and a resourcefulness of every kind, which, in a better cause, could not have failed to win the admiration of the world. But they have made many mistakes, and the mistakes have mainly been in not understanding human nature. I think they have made one error in deciding, as they did, to start at sea a ruthless campaign, not against their enemies, but against mankind. They must have had in view the probability, or at least the possibility, of America being forced into the War. Well, they have made their calculations presumably, and in spite of the success which has attended this submarine warfare, which I am certainly not going to minimise and which may mean that the people of this country will have to show a staying power and to suffer hardships which have been unknown so far in this War—in spite of this I at least have no doubt that on balance they have lost enormously by adding one of the greatest nations of the world to the number of their enemies. I should like to say, further, that all the information we have received bears out what we could have expected in advance, that the American people are not likely to do anything by halves, and that the United States Government has already shown, not only that they are preparing to organise the full strength of the nation, but that they realise the value of immediate assistance as compared with assistance, however much more important it may be, which will come later. They have already, in addition to financial aid, given in other directions assistance which is of the greatest value, and which will become increasingly important as the weeks advance.

I feel that I personally ought to say something further about this Mission. I do not believe in saying anything in praise of a colleague, and I do not think since I have been in political life that I have ever said a word of that kind. I am going to make an exception. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, as anyone who has worked with him knows, has, from the beginning of the War, regarded himself as a soldier whose duty it was to undertake any task which he was called upon to fulfil. It was in that spirit that at the request of the Prime Minister, without a moments hesitation, he agreed to undertake this Mission. I undertake to say that no service in his public life has been greater to the State than that which he has rendered in connection with this Mission.

I am not going to take advantage of this opportunity to attempt a review of the general military situation. It is very difficult to say anything that would interest the House which it would be safe to say. There is, however, another reason for me not doing that to-day, that is because I hope it will be possible to-morrow for myself—or the Prime Minister—to make the House realise better than in open Session what actually is the position of the country. Still, there are two subjects that I may be allowed to say a word or two upon which may interest the House. I refer to two of the theatres of the War. The first is Mesopotamia. That was an operation which began very badly. It was one of our great reverses. All that has been changed! It is now—it is not too much to say—not only one of the most successful, but one of the most brilliant operations that have been conducted throughout the War.

Not only have we succeeded in taking Bagdad, but after that was done the General commanding our forces has given the enemy no rest. He has seized every opportunity; he has used to the full the advantage which his interior lines give him, and again and again by brilliant attacks between the Tigris and the Diala he has defeated the enemy, with the result that now we not only hold Bagdad itself, but we practically hold the villayet of Bagdad—and, what is more, we hold it securely. Part of the credit for this result—and not a small part—is due, as I think, to the work of our General Staff at home which made the arrangements. Part is also due to the splendid courage and ardour of our troops, but much is due to the British Commander in that theatre of operations, who has shown, as far as I can judge, or if I may be permitted to express an opinion, military ability of the very highest order in all the operations connected with that campaign, and I may add that the Cabinet only the other day sent out to him a message of congratulation and thanks, which I am sure the House of Commons will gladly endorse.

I do think it right to say a word or two also about the operations of our troops on the Western Front, and I hope I can say it, at all events, without giving anything away to the enemy. I am not going to say anything about what is being done by our Allies on the same field. The House knows what their success has been, that they have taken many guns and have taken upwards, I think, of 30,000 prisoners. But I wish to speak only of our own troops, and in my opinion the long-continued battle which has been going on there would in any other war have been regarded as one of the greatest battles, and the result in any other war would have been regarded as a very great victory. The offensive, for which we had prepared throughout the whole of the winter, began on the 9th April. The weather, as it happened, was unusually bad, but in spite of that we had the most complete success. As is inevitable in this class of operation, our progress since has been slower, but we are still pressing the enemy with undiminished force. Now it is well known—publicly known—that the enemy intended to retire not only from the front which we attacked, but from the region between Arras and Soissons. They were forestalled by the rapidity of our attack. They were unable to make the withdrawal, and were driven, after heavy losses, from their very strong position on the Vimy Ridge, and had to fight with heavy losses to some extent on open ground in front of entrenchments which they had not time to complete. As it seems to me, one of the most encouraging features of this battle is to be found in some of the German communiqués. They seem to be almost hysterical in their effort to keep up the courage of their people at home by giving accounts of absolutely imaginary victories. If we wish to realise the extent of their failure we can do it in figures which I am now going to give. From the beginning of April, when this attack began, we took upwards of 20,000 prisoners, and we took 257 guns, of which 98 were of heavy calibre. We took in addition 227 trench mortars and 470 machine guns. That is a great achievement, but if we wish to have a standard by which to measure the success of those operations we get it by a comparison with what happened on the Somme. Taking the first twenty-four days of the fighting on the Somme, and comparing them with the first twenty-four days of the recent battle, we find that on the Somme we advanced some three and a half miles on a six-mile front. Here we have advanced from two to five miles on a twenty-mile front. We have taken, in fact, four times the amount of territory here which was taken on the Somme, and there is this further to be said: there was double the number of German divisions opposed to us at Arras, as compared with the Somme, and of those divisions exactly one-half have had to be withdrawn out of the fighting line and sent to reserve.

There is another aspect of this fighting in which, I am sure, the House takes, as I do, as much interest as in the success, and that is the question of casualties. They have of necessity been heavy, but although our gains in the recent fighting were so much greater than on the Somme, I would like to be able to tell the House, without giving figures, which, of course, I could not, that the casualties on the Somme were between a half and three-quarters as much again as they have been in the recent fighting. I have this only further to say on this point: The desire—indeed, the feeling of necessity—on the part of the enemy to prevent our advance was shown by the extreme violence of their counterattacks. One took place last night, with the result, as the House knows, that we lost one of the positions which we had taken. But regrettable as that is, it is only one of the incidents inevitable in the kind of fighting which is going on. As regards the effectiveness of this fighting, I think it is a gratifying thing to feel that a very large part of the success was due to our superiority in artillery. When the House realises that before the War it would have been supposed—at least I think so—the most difficult branch of the Service to train rapidly, considering how absolutely destitute we were in munitions of war as compared with our enemy, it is indeed something of which as a nation we have a right to be proud, that in this branch of fighting we have a distinct superiority over our enemy—a superiority which shows in another direction. It is shown by our airmen who are the eyes of our long-range guns. I have been told more than once that in France it is not uncommon to find regiments show their admiration for our airmen by cheering one of them as he flies low over their lines. That to me is not surprising. These men are all young—many of them are little more than boys—but from the beginning of this War they have shown a dash, a courage, a nerve and a resourcefulness which entitle us to say that a more glorious fighting force has never existed in the world. I have made what may seem an optimistic speech. I have no desire to do that. I do not say anything about the future. I have simply given an account, absolutely unexaggerated, of what has been done by our Forces.

I am not going to. And if we wish to realise how much has been done, let us picture to ourselves what our feelings would have been if, on the Western front in that period of time, we had lost 20,000 prisoners and the number of guns which the Germans have lost. Nobody can say anything about what is in front of us, but when we consider that men who have been fighting this battle, three years ago were engaged in the arts of peace, that they love peace, that none of them probably ever thought they would be using weapons of destruction, whatever may happen in the future we have indeed reason to be proud of what has been done by our fellow-countrymen in this War.

I think every hon. Member who listened to the statement of my right hon. Friend must have felt, as I did, that he would wish to associate himself personally with his expression of opinion as regards the conduct of our troops both in the East and in the West. Particularly we all felt—I am sure I did and I am sure others must have felt—moved by the touching terms in which he spoke of the gallant conduct of our airmen. I do not propose to follow my right hon. Friend into the larger questions which he has raised. I wish to confine myself for the few moments I am going to trouble the Committee with one or two matters touching the question of expenditure. I am bound to say that the opening statement of my right hon. Friend somewhat disturbed me. I am sure he himself when he examined the figures could not have felt a little of the anxiety which moves us all. We are within only a few days of the Budget Estimate, and we find that the expenditure on the Vote of Credit in the first thirty-five days has already exceeded the average of the Estimate by an amount of £7,000,000. My right hon. Friend in administering the poison gave us the antidote, but I am bound to say that I do not think the full effect of the poison was thereby removed. As regards a £1,000,000 a day, it is quite clear from the statement of my right hon. Friend that the expenditure merely amounts to an accumulation of balances in the hands of the paymasters, and therefore it is not in the true sense an expenditure at all. As regards advances to the Allies and Dominions, the money is gone. Therefore the £1,000,000 a day for thirty-five days means an excess on the Budget Estimate, gone for ever, of £35,000,000. I would remind my right hon. Friend that all our estimates of expenditure—it is not his fault, in fact, it was my fault as much as his, and my predecessor's fault as much as mine—with a single exception have been under the mark. I looked forward to-day to the probability of the expenditure on our present Estimate not being exceeded.

I find since I spoke last, taking one commodity only, the price of wheat has gone up by leaps and bounds, and it now stands in America at well over three dollars a bushel. I always used to hear that one dollar a bushel was the ideal of the American farmer, but it is now well on the way to four dollars a bushel, and that is only one of the many items of expenditure which now fall directly in excess prices upon the Government. We have fixed the price of wheat here. The Wheat Commission have got to buy at this price, and consequently my right hon. Friend could not foresee the additional charges which were going to fall upon us in respect of expenditure of that kind. I think it is, indeed, a subject for great congratulation that the Mission, of which my right hon. Friend has justly spoken in such high terms, are devoting themselves to negotiations with the United States in order, if possible, to limit the prices of articles which we have to buy there. It is quite obvious that if some definite action of the kind is not taken in circumstances like the present, there can be no remedy for rising prices.

It is a notorious fact that the national demand for commodities which each nation thinks indispensable for the conduct of the War is in excess of the total world's supply, and under these circumstances all these rich nations are competing with each other in a limited market for a very limited supply. Under these circumstances, there cannot fail to be anything but an almost unlimited rise in prices. I know that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is as anxious as I or anyone else in the House about this matter. I only speak now with a desire to strengthen his hands. The House of Commons has also to strengthen his hands. It must be remembered that the Treasury, although responsible for the expenditure of the country in a certain sense in time of war, cannot really control expenditure unless it has the House of Commons behind it. As a former Chancellor of the Exchequer, I appeal to the House of Commons to assist the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I am sure he will do his duty by the country. We have to give him our fullest support, and realise that in presenting Estimates of this magnitude he is the last man who desires to present such Estimates, and we know that he would much rather give an account of a smaller expenditure. We owe him the duty of assisting him in every way in our power. The amount he has asked for appears in the circumstances to be a perfectly reasonable sum. It is true that it is far more than has been asked for before, but the daily expenditure is now far more than it has ever been before. This Vote will last at the present rate of expenditure for something like two and a half months, and that has been the normal period for which Votes of Credit have been asked since the beginning of the War, and I shall most gladly give my vote to my right hon. Friend for this sum, large as it is.

With the permission of the House, I desire to say a very few words this afternoon in support of the Vote which has been proposed, if I may say so, in such profoundly moving terms by my right hon. Friend. In rising to address the Committee I must ask in very full measure for that indulgence which the House is accustomed to give to one who addresses it for the first time. I ask it in no conventional terms, and I do not doubt I shall obtain it; and all the more readily if I promise, as I do, that I will not abuse that indulgence by the length of my observations. For, Sir, it is not words that we want at a moment like this; it is works, not words. As was said in a very famous sentence from a very famous tractate, Milton's "Tractate on Education," so familiar that I hesitate to ask for leave to quote the words to the House: in many Departments of our national economy, but that deficiency has in no Department been more glaring, and I would even say more painful and real, than in respect of our vocabulary. The supply of words has long since been exhausted, and more particularly superlatives, have been exhausted, in describing the operations of this War, and the demands which have been made upon this House and the country. We are sick to death of hearing that the effort is prodigious, that the total is colossal, and that the expenditure is gigantic. All this is perfectly true, but it is painfully trite. Nevertheless, I hope it will not be regarded as quite immodest and inappropriate that a Member of the House who has so rerently been in touch with the electorate should not only give his vote, but should lend his voice in support of the Motion which has been made this afternoon. And for this among other reasons; that coming into the House I was very specially charged by my Constituents, whom without distinction of party I represent, to give a whole-hearted support to the Executive Government in the prosecution of this War.

Sir, the community which I have the honour to represent is a relatively poor community—I speak of poverty, of course, in material resources; it is poor in no other respects. That community, never opulent, has been greatly impoverished by this War. I suppose there are other towns, more particularly those unfortunate resorts on the East Coast, which have been even more impoverished by the War; but I venture to say that there is no city in England or in Great Britain which has been more completely transformed by the War than the Oxford of to-day. The colleges are barracks, and the whole city is one vast parade ground. Still impoverished as we are, we have made a very cordial response to every demand made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the subscription which was made in my Constituency to the last War Loan reached an amount which, to me I confess, was simply astounding. Of this, therefore, I am absolutely confident that my Constituents would wish me to consent with alacrity to the demands which have been made upon us this afternoon. At the same time I am equally certain that though they would wish their assent to be cordial, they would also wish it to be conditional. There are two conditions on which I believe they would desire me to insist. The first is that the tremendous burdens which must inevitably be involved by this expenditure should be equally distributed amongst all classes of the people. An ancient and very respected philosopher once uttered a prayer that he might be given neither poverty nor riches. I think if he had lived in our modern community he would have considerably modified his prayer, and he would have prayed, "Give me either poverty or riches; in the one case I shall largely escape taxation, and in the other I shall have the wherewithal to meet it." It is the intermediate stage which is the fiscal purgatory to-day. As I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be ready to acknowledge, there is no class in the community which has borne its burdens more patriotically and with less complaint than the middle class, and I hope he will put no intolerable burden or strain upon their limited powers of financial endurance. That is the first condition of assent to this Motion.

The second condition I wish to suggest is that we should have from the Chancellor of the Exchequer a real assurance, a very definite assurance, that down to the uttermost farthing we shall get value for the money which is spent. There are, I suppose, a great many parts of the country, a great many districts, and, perhaps, a good many classes, who appear to derive advantage from lavish Governmental expenditure. But that is emphatically not the case with the city which I represent. I should like to guard myself against the assumption that if you take long views it can be really true of any portion of the community. According to the ancient saws—and I think ancient saws are not necessarily untrue or obsolete because ancient—luxurious expenditure cannot be good for trade; and for trade in the aggregate it cannot be good, though it may be good for many particular trades and many particular traders. I suppose that if one happened to be one of those traders or belong to one of those trades it would argue almost sea-green incorruptibility to resist such expenditure; but that is not the case with the constituents whom I represent, and on their behalf I can assent to this Vote only on the condition of the most precise and rigid economy in the expenditure of the money we are asked to authorise by the Vote this afternoon. I confess my own confidence in His Majesty's Treasury as the watch-dog over public expenditure has been very rudely shaken in recent years—if I may say so, in the last nine or ten years in particular—and I would like, if I may, very deferentially to commend to the Chancellor of the Exchequer the words of one of the most distinguished of his predecessors: necessarily to reflect—I confess the whole financial outlook causes me very grave apprehension indeed; and it is because I am convinced that economy, so far from being inconsistent with efficiency, is the necessary complement of efficiency that I felt it would not have been consistent with my duty to my Constituents if I gave a silent vote this afternoon.

5.0 P.M.

I am sure I express the opinion of the House generally when I say we welcome the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, as a very distinguished participator in our Debates. He has expressed himself as desirous of economy. Never was there a time in the history of this House when enthusiasm and industry in that direction were more required; and if he can succeed in bringing his ability to bear in the direction of increased economy, he will succeed where many others equally enthusiastic have failed; but I am sure he will receive the recognition and gratitude of the House and the country. We are discussing this Vote to-day in very peculiar circumstances. To-morrow we are to have the same Vote on the Report stage, and I gather from the statement made by the Leader of the House today that we may anticipate a fuller statement to-morrow than it is possible for him to make to-day. This is the largest individual Vote which the Committee has ever been asked to consider, and it stands, I think, for a longer period of time than any other Vote, and I think that, as the opportunities of discussing Votes of Credit are after all rather rare throughout the Session, and altogether apart from the fact that we have a Secret Session to-morrow, there are some matters of public policy which the country is entitled to have some information upon. I confess I listened to the whole of the speech of my right hon. Friend with a great deal of interest, but I could not but feel when he sat down that there were a great many important matters in which the country was vitally interested to which he had made no reference whatever. The House agrees most cordially with the splendid tribute which he paid to our gallant forces in the West. I hope the Government are fully satisfied with the success that has been achieved in our latest offensive; and I am sure the good wishes of the House will go out to the men of responsibility in this very critical time in the history of our country. With regard to the other front to which my right hon. Friend referred, namely, Mesopotamia, I am glad he was able to make a pleasing reference to it, because our information with regard to that particular front, as well as with regard to many others, has indeed been very short for some considerable time. I could have wished that my right hon. Friend had made reference to other matters of very vital interest and, as I think, at the present moment nearer at home. For instance, I think, when the Government asks for credit till August, we are entitled to ask the Government to take the House and country more fully than my right hon. Friend did into its confidence and not keep all the vital and important facts for the Secret Session to-morrow. We are all agreed that the one subject which at this moment is nearest to the minds of the people of this country is the question of the submarine menace. I suppose that question and the position of affairs in Russia are the two all-important matters with which the country is concerning itself at the present moment. There is no disguising the fact, although we have optimistic speeches from representative men, that this is a very grave, and increasingly grave, matter, and I think the House would have heard it with great satisfaction if my right hon. Friend could have given us a statement with regard to the position of the submarine war which would have been of an encouraging character. There are some things we do know. We know, for example, that on an average eight ships were sunk per week in February of this year, and the number has now increased to an average of forty-five or fifty. That is a very serious matter and it does not take into account the number of neutral ships sunk at the same time. There is controversy as to whether the manner in which our sea losses are presented brings home sufficiently to the people of this country the seriousness of the menace. It may be true that the figures might be put in some more startling manner, but from my point of view they are startling enough. I think, to anybody who takes the trouble to consider them, they bring home the seriousness of the situation through which we are passing. Another thing which the public know is that we have failed up to this moment to grapple with this very serious subject; and the public are entitled to ask, therefore, why is it that although all the money has. been granted to any Government ever asked for with regard to the requirements of the Navy, and although we have been three years at war, we have not been able to do more to meet these attacks than we have done during the last few months? It did not come as a surprise. The country was warned of it before the War took place. We knew the submarine was going to be a great and effective weapon of warfare. We had the danger before our eyes every day for the last three years, and therefore the question is by no means a new one. What the public, I think, wants to know is what is the explanation which this Government, or any Government who has been responsible for the policy of the country during the last three years, has to give for its failure in this particular direction. There is no doubt a complete and satisfactory answer, but I say we are entitled at this moment of obvious failure to ask for a report upon what the various Departments of War have been doing. Since the War began every War Department has had an Inventions Committee of its own. The War Office has an Inventions Department; the Ministry of Munitions has an Inventions Department, and so also has the Admiralty; and I think what we are entitled to ask, in view of the money spent on these Departments, is whether the Government has received any assistance from them, since they were established, which has been of any benefit to the Government in conducting this campaign. We have never since they were appointed had any statement or any Report presented to the House of the work of these various Inventions Departments, and when we see practically the command of the sea slipping from our grasp we are entitled to know what has been done in order to prevent such a catastrophe taking place. Surely it is not the case that it is only since the submarine difficulty has become so acute that the minds of the Admiralty and the minds of our statesmen have been diverted to it I refuse to believe that. We are entitled to have from the Government, before the Debate closes, a full statement as to the work that has been done during the last three years by our responsible officials, and by our statesmen, to deal with this very grave position of affairs. I would ask, also, are we avoid- ing all unnecessary risks in order to save our tonnage, in view of the menace which undoubtedly exists? Personally I do not think we are. I listened with some interest this afternoon to the reply made by the Secretary to the Food Controller's Department, who appeared to take the view that everything was being done that can be done in order to avoid the loss of ships. My information certainly does not agree with that of the hon. Gentleman. I refer to the risk that ships have to take, which, in my opinion, might be avoided. I asked a question about this matter about three weeks ago, and I must say that the reply I got was not quite satisfactory. I am dealing now with the point that ships with valuable cargoes, after they have got through the danger zone, have again to run all the risks associated with the submarine menace.

I have three sample cases within my knowledge which I would like to bring to the notice of the Leader of the House. I will take, first, the case of a valuable cargo of meat coming from Australia. I am giving away no information, because the Germans know all about it. After landing the passengers at a southern port the ship, with a cargo valued at £1,000,000 sterling, was compelled to leave that port and go through the danger zone, and the ship was ultimately sunk, with a loss of many lives. Then I have another case, that of a ship which landed at a southern port, stayed there several days, and then was compelled under orders to take a very long journey in the danger zone. That ship was compelled to lie outside a harbour for a whole night. She was torpedoed, and, of course, lost. Surely arrangements could be made that ships do not spend needless time in the danger zone. The third ship, full of grain, called at a southern port and again was compelled to go through the danger zone to its ultimate objective, but was lost in the course of the voyage.

These are three sample cases which I can confirm to my right hon. Friend. I think they are sufficient in themselves to induce the House to ask whether everything is being done that can be done to prevent this great loss of tonnage. I have no doubt that my right hon. Friend on the Front Bench will tell us that there were no facilities at that particular port for unloading the ship. That is a very simple reply to make, and I do not think the House ought to accept it as adequate. We have had a year or more of this active submarine campaign, and it is not an answer to say that there are not sufficient facilities at the present time. I maintain that the cargo, in view of the danger existing, ought to have been unloaded there, and facilities ought to have been provided and everything done in order that unnecessary risks might be avoided. Are the Government quite clear that the orders which are given on their behalf to these ships are as accurate as they might be? I think that is a very important point, and it is one to which I desire specially to draw the attention of my right hon. Friend. It is the case that there are many captains in the mercantile marine who take the view that if they were left to take whatever course they thought proper they would be more likely to be safe than they are by following the Admiralty instructions. Of course that is out of the question, because the insurance is lost unless the captains obey the orders of the Admiralty. But it is desirable that the attention of the Intelligence Department of the Admiralty should be called to this matter and that they should see that the instructions they give to the captains of the mercantile marine are as accurate and reliable as possible. Another point on which I desire information associated with this matter is the position of affairs at the present moment at the Admiralty. It has been announced that some important changes have taken place quite recently at the Admiralty. I must say that I was not greatly impressed by the announcement. I do not know that it is true, but I ask the Government to give us information on the point. Have important changes been made recently in the administration of the Departments of the Admiralty? It has been announced that a great deal of work has been taken from the responsible men in the office, as in the past they have been so much taken up with Departmental work that they have been unable to give their whole time to the question of the wider administration outside their office. I think it is desirable that the House should be informed if changes have been made and what the changes are. If changes have been made it is a grave reflection upon someone. If these changes are necessary at the present time. when the submarine menace has got to such an acute stage, surely they ought to have been necessary a very long time ago! I should like to have what the case is for the changes, and, if there is a case, why it was not presented some months ago.

There is another subject on which we are entitled to have information, in view of the largeness of the Vote. I refer to the position of the Government in regard to the general question of man-power. We had a statement on 4th April by Sir William Robertson, I presume representing the Government, to the effect that they must have 500,000 men by July. That is a good many weeks ago. July is coming along very quickly, and have the Government done anything with a view to obtaining this half-million men? Are they gradually getting the number they require to make up the number that the Imperial Staff advised they should obtain? I think that is certainly a point upon which information ought to be given. I cannot understand that these demands should be made one day and that we should hear nothing more about them for very many weeks, until it is almost too late to get the men necessary by the time they are required. Personally, I think we have sent men to the front in many cases without proper training. I know some young men in my place in Scotland who have gone out after a very few weeks, men of eighteen years of age. I do not think that training is sufficient to fit men to go out and face an enemy like the Germans. What training are you going to give the men who are required by July? There is not the opportunity for sufficient training, and if the Government require, as appears from the demand they made through Sir William Robertson, half a million men by July, the sooner they make the appeal the better, and they should let the House know how these men are going to be obtained. The fact is that the whole question of man-power has been allowed to slide right from the beginning of the War. Eighteen months ago the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Churchill) pleaded with the House to take steps to deal with the question of coloured soldiers, and to get them from South Africa. The reply at that time was that it would take eighteen months' training and an equal time for officers to learn the language. Now, eighteen months after, when we are approaching the most critical stage of the War, of scores of thousands of men who might have been available to-day not one, speaking generally, has been called to do service alongside the white troops. The Member for West Toxteth (Mr. Houston), I think, was the first to raise the question, and he offered at his own expense to bring thousands to this country, but he never received the slightest encouragement. Scores of thousands of men would have been useful at this stage. They were available, and are available to-day. Then there are other sources which I have already mentioned. Two months ago in the House there was a question of thousands of Englishmen being in Ireland at the present time, men who have gone there deliberately to evade service. Time after time I brought that question up. One of the hon. Members for Dublin informs me that I am understating the case, and that there are thousands in Dublin alone. It ought not to be possible for these young men to go to Ireland to evade military service. Why do not the Government take some steps in that direction I have represented the matter half a dozen times to the Secretary of State for War, and I am told it is "under consideration." "Under consideration" will not do. "Under consideration" was the disease of which the last Government died, and I advise this Government not to give us too much "under consideration." A simple matter of that kind could have been done by a stroke of the pen.

There is a further source in the number of Englishmen on the Continent, in our Allied countries. There must be thousands of them. It will not be denied, because inquiries have been made and the Government know that it is true. Why should we not call upon the French Government to return to this country every Englishman of military age in that country at the present time? The Government might make investigations in other Allied countries. There are tens of thousands in America. Are we going to take steps to ensure that they shall take part in the War? You have all the men required if you tap the many resources which are available to you at the present time. Then again there is the further question which I raised under the late Government and during the existence of this Government, the question of 30,000 friendly aliens who are in this country Why, in the name of all that is reasonable, do you have 30,000 men of military age walking about the streets, taking the businesses of men who are forced to join the Colours and causing the greatest irritation among the relatives and friends of those men? There is a street within a cab fare from here where there are seven shops occupied by men who have been called up which have now been taken over by aliens from the East End of London. Is not that making too much of a claim on our patience and indulgence? There are 20,000 friendly aliens in London alone who ought to be called to the Colours who are absolutely free at the present time, and another 10,000 in different parts of the country. I say, do it at once. Take steps and have it done. I know there have been difficulties with our Allies in regard to that matter, but we have had two and a half years of this sort of thing. Surely the new Government in Free Russia would make no objection to these men, most of them coming, as they do, from Poland, joining up? If there are not shipping facilities, let us have an agent here to begin to train them here, then it can be decided which Army at the front they shall be sent to. Why not have a Foreign Legion in this country to train them? As long as that scandal exists we shall have just cause to criticise any Government which does not take immediate steps to deal with it. I have two points more. My right hon. Friend told us that the Prime Minister was going to allude to-morrow to the position of affairs in Salonika. He must realise that there are many families in this country who have taken a great interest in Salonika, and if we have only a statement in Secret Session they will be just as ignorant as they were before.

We must wait and see. I hope my hon. Friend will not be quite accurate in his estimate of what is to happen to-morrow. But the country generally is entitled to more information than we have had in regard to Salonika. We really have had no information at all up to the present. I do not say there is not a case to be made for that expedition, but so far it has never been made on behalf of any Government. We have never been told why we have such a vast Army at Salonika, and we get no information on the subject. All that we see are photographs of huge churchyards full of tombstones that are known as British. These photographs are published at the request of the Government. I called attention some time ago to the fact that we get really no information, and I say that with the large Army we have in Salonika the country is entitled to some information from the Government, in the first place, as to why they are there at the present moment, what are our war aims in that part of the world, and whether we intend to change our policy from what it has been during the past few months. As far as I can see, King Tino to-day is as active for the German Government as he has been at any period of the War. You find him defying the Allies to-day with as much success as he defied them six months ago, and at the present moment he appears almost to be getting the best of it. I should like the Government to tell the country in one word, "Are we for or against King Tino?" Let us know. The average man thinks King Tino is playing with us, and that it is a farce. But it is very much of a tragedy, as hon. Members will see if they take the trouble to look at the list of casualties which they are allowed to see privately. At the present time we are losing thousands of men there, and we are getting no information, and, so far as I can see, no adequate result. I certainly will not go into the question of shipping associated with that enterprise, nor into all the attached questions which are so important; but I do say the House ought not to pass this Vote now before it has some fuller information in regard to the Government's policy.

The other question I desire to ask is whether the Government can give us a reassuring statement in regard to the condition of affairs in Russia. At present I think the situation is very delicate, and I will not press the Government unless they are able to give us a statement, but we are entitled to some information. To a great extent the whole War turns upon the development of matters in Russia, and it has an important bearing upon our future action. I am glad to see indications that the situation is more satisfactory from our point of view than it was two days ago. I ask my right hon. Friend (Mr. Bonar Law) to give us as reassuring a statement as he can in regard to the determination of Russia to honour her obligations and also to continue to be faithful to the Allies. I would ask the Government not to take the view which is too often taken in regard to the War generally by our leading statesmen, that we must make up our minds that this is to be a long war, and we must prepare for it, and, I suppose, take it easily. I am not quite so sure that the country is encouraged by being told so often that this is going to be a long war. What the country feels is this, it is behind this Government, and it would be behind any Government that will do everything in its power to make it a short war. We really are getting to the position in regard to this War when the people are beginning to have some idea of what war carries in its train. I would say to the Government that the more prompt are their decisions and the more commanding their requests I believe the more the country will be satisfied with the Government. I am a democrat who believes in autocracy in times of war, and so far as the Government is concerned they can take no action of which I will disapprove, provided that action is in order to assist us to win the War, subject at all times to the control of the House of Commons. I think it perfectly possible to be autocratic and still to be controlled. I therefore appeal to the Government to be more prompt in their decisions. It is wrong that we should not have had a statement of policy in regard to manpower; it is absolutely wrong. After the statements made by Sir William Robertson, it is wrong that we do not know more about Salonika. At present, too, we know little or nothing about Egypt. It is hardly ever mentioned. We were told the other day that we had taken the important town of Gaza.

I said that we were told that we had taken it, and I was going to explain that it has not yet been confirmed. We ought to have information regarding the exact position of affairs. We have so many fronts, we are really liable to forget some at a time like this. We ought to have a full statement from the Government as to the information in their possession which they can give us, in order that the country may be able to judge of the general situation. I have made these points in no spirit of criticism of the Government. I support the Government, and I shall continue to support them as long as I believe that they are doing what they can for the general progress of the War. When I consider that they are not doing that I claim my right to tell them so, and I believe that is the spirit which the House ought to entertain in regard to the Government. Generally we are anxious and willing to support them in every possible way, but we have a right to demand of the Govern- ment, and the country also has a right to demand, that they should take us into their confidence to the fullest possible extent.

The Leader of the House made a very serious reference to our overseas supplies, and he foreshadowed that our population would probably have to undergo much greater hardships and sufferings than had hitherto been the case. He promised a further reference to that subject in the Secret Session, which is to take place to-morrow. Of course, it is within the discretion of the Government; but I would suggest to them that it is not the House of Commons which wants to be convinced of the seriousness of the situation as regards overseas supplies, but it is the country itself. All the information that is given in the Secret Session to-morrow with regard to our food supplies, and the possibility of their continuance, should, I think, be given in open Debate, so that the country could realise the position. There is one thing I am perfectly certain of, and that is any privation will be cheerfully borne if our population know that everything has been done that can be done. I am sorry to have been a critic of both this Government and the late Government for the past fifteen to eighteen months with regard to the depletion of our food supplies, and there not being produced in this country. I hope that we are not having the same—I do not like to use the word gamble, but the same procedure with regard to meat and bread as we have had with regard to potatoes. We heard that there was a shortage of potatoes, and within a few weeks there was none to be had. We know now that there is a shortage of margarine. We know, too, that horse racing, after having been allowed to continue for many months quite unnecessarily, in my judgment, has been put a stop to because there is a shortage of oats. These things, it seems to me, do rather show that there has been enough of provision on the part of the Government. There is another thing which I have drawn particular attention to over and over again, and that is the future milk supply of the country. Milk, I believe, will be very scarce in the next few months. I cannot be put off with all these wonderful figures of what is going to happen in the future. I do know what has happened in regard to our wheat cultivation. In this country last year there were 282,000 acres. less cultivated than in the previous year, and there are 160,000 acres less this year than last year. That is due entirely to the withdrawal of labour from the land. We have a Food Controller, who is clothed with the most despotic power, but he is something like a Czar in chains. If the food is not available the Food Controller cannot control it. That is the position, I fear, that we may arrive at unless great prudence is shown. There is plenty of wheat available in the world. There is wheat in Canada, in India, and in Australia, only waiting for ships to fetch it. Mr. Massey said the other day there was from 2,000,000 to 3,000,000 carcasses of mutton in New Zealand only waiting to be shipped.

That is the very point to which I am coming. Ships, as the Prime Minister said the other day, are our greatest and most vital necessities. Therefore, the Food Controller is controlled by the Shipping Controller, and the Shipping Controller in turn is controlled by the U-boats, and the U-boats ought to be controlled by the Admiralty. But up till now, I am sorry to say, that has not been done. A very distinguished official said the other day, "Can the Army achieve victory before the Admiralty lose it?" I draw a very sharp distinction between the Admiralty and the Navy. The Admiralty have control of one of the finest fighting machines in the world, as has been proved over and over again. In the Dover raid the other day the very first instinct of the commanders of the destroyers was to go for the enemy. But what has been the strategy pursued at the Admiralty for the past two years? It has been borrowed from Dr. Clifford—passive resistance—

The Grand Fleet is one of the most magnificent weapons in the world, and it is humiliating that it is only engaged in a kind of half-hearted blockade at the German coast. The Admiralty have failed to perceive the German plans, or at any rate failed to meet the German plans for the submarine warfare. They have failed to use their own brains and they have prevented other people from using theirs. I will give an instance of that. There is a Board called the Board of Inventions and Research. It is composed of some of the most dis- tinguished men in the world. Sir Joseph Thomson, a most distinguished physicist; Sir Charles Parsons, the inventor of the turbine, one of the most distinguished engineers; Sir George Bealby, a most distinguished chemist. These are presided over by an admiral whose name I almost fear to mention as I have mentioned it so many times here, Admiral Lord Fisher. I promise I will not bring in his name again. These gentlemen foresaw the future menace of the German submarine clearly and distinctly. They penetrated the German plans, and early last year made a request to the Admiralty—they did not want anything great, they did not want Buckingham Palace or a battleship, they simply wanted a submarine to experiment with. The Admiralty took a month to reply, and then they sent a reply that they might have a submarine for experiment provided that it did not interfere with the exigencies of the Service.

I must rescue this gem of officialdom: have been made upon him because of his opinion upon the Irish question. The Irish question is important; the command of the sea is vital. For my part, persons and politics are meaningless. I have no concern with them. The only things that matter are the future government of our country and our success in this War. If I may be allowed to refer to a personal matter—I referred to it in my own Constituency a month or two ago—the Prime Minister—I very greatly appreciated it—offered me a post in his Government. I declined it for the sole and simple reason that I was not satisfied with the Admiralty's dealing with submarines and the naval situation generally. In my letter to him of December last I said:

My hon. Friend is quite right. The ships sunk are only British ships. They total forty-seven. Naturally, when the public see that only forty-seven out of 5,406 are sunk, they say, "There is nothing we need be alarmed about." Concealment of the facts will not avert their consequences. I do not want in the least degree to taunt the First Lord of the Admiralty with want of frankness. He told us he would be full and frank with the House. He has not been able to be so through the advice of his naval advisers. I think it rather proves the courage of the right hon. Gentleman. What is the effect, not only upon the people of this country, but upon the people in other countries? The Germans are not slow to take advantage of this withholding of information. I have here a speech made in the German Reichstag by the Minister of the Interior, Herr Helfferich, on 28th April, 1917. He said: been an increase in British shipping losses. The month of February was bad, the month of March was worse, and the month of April was grave. I do not know whether, in the Secret Session to-morrow, the Admiralty will be prepared to give an estimate of our shipping position, if these losses continue as they are going on, on 1st January, 1918. I do not want to recriminate; it is no good jobbing backward, but I do want to make some suggestions. There is a certain school in the country who believe that if you change some administrative details at the Admiralty, everything will be right. They say of the strategist that at the present moment he is overburdened with administrative work. If that be so, that strategist is not fit for his position, for he ought to have unburdened himself long ago. The kind of mind that believes that administrative changes in the Admiralty will save the situation is the same kind of mind that believes in controllers and officials—that is, the man and the men who are there. Another school tells us to trust America and the inventive capacity of that great nation. It is a poor consolation to a Briton, who believes in the brains of his own people, if we are to trust to American brains to retain the British command of the sea. There is one policy for the Admiralty. I speak deferentially but with some knowledge, because I was there for nearly ten years myself. I believe they must smash the German submarine, and that it can be done—it has been done—but there will have to be a good deal of disturbance of the present calm at the Admiralty. The Prime Minister paid a visit there the other day. I have very great faith in the Prime Minister's driving power. If I had accompanied him to the Admiralty I should have asked one or two questions—first, had the Admiralty information as to the German plans as regards the commencement of their submarine warfare; if so, was that information handed on to the Constructive Department, and did the Constructive Department take pains to meet that submarine menace, and has their strategy been of a character which would enable the submarine menace to be met?

For a good many years the Admiralty has been sheltered by public confidence. It has been rather prone to rest on the laurels of Nelson. Germany has banked all on her submarine war. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House said that that had brought in America. It is a gamble, and they were willing to incur the hostility of America. I believe, if wise and proper measures are taken, that that gamble will follow the general results of every gambler's throw. We are told that we are to arm the merchantmen. That is all to the good. But arming a merchant ship does not protect one single neutral. We are told we must build standard ships. That is simply more fodder for the submarines. I say here that the real policy is for the Admiralty to establish something like what was established by the War Office in April, 1915—a special Munitions Department, and I wish they could get a Lloyd George at the head of it. They want a special Department for the destruction of the submarine. I would commandeer the brains of any Department. I would strip any Department and any industry for the subduing and destruction of the German submarine. That is far and away the most important subject we have to tackle at the present moment. The necessity is great, and the longer the matter goes on the more formidable will be the danger. The German shipbuilding resources are great. I had a calculation from a very distinguished shipbuilder the other day showing me that if the Germans put on the whole of their shipbuilding resources—I do not believe they could do it—and utilised all their facilities for turning out submarines they could turn out something like 500 per annum, working nine hours a day. I do not think they could get the oil and fuel. The men would not present so much difficulty. But that all these facts have to be taken into consideration goes without saying. The destruction of the submarine must be the chief object of the Admiralty.

There is only one other topic that I wish to allude to. We are a great naval power, and I am sure the Germans must have been amazed at the little use we have made of it. There has been no co-ordination between naval and military strategy. Where the Army has been used the Fleet should have helped them. So far as the offensive of the Army is concerned, the Navy might as well be the Navy of a neutral Power. We have these mystery Armies in Salonika, and there is another attacking Jerusalem. I am not so much concerned about the future of Jerusalem, but these Armies, have to be fed and supplied. This takes ships for carrying the food and the supplies. The hon. Member (Mr. Houston) asked some questions the other day about the number of ships which were required for conveying hay and all the other stores to the Army in Salonika.

We are getting great losses in the transports that go to Salonika and the East. The Admiralty announced on 4th May that the British transport "Arcadia" with troops on board was torpedoed by an enemy submarine in the Eastern Mediterranean on 15th April and sunk in five minutes, and there were 260 men and 19 officers missing. I marvel that the losses are not more in the 3,500 miles from this country to Salonika. It is a naval wonder, and reflects the greatest credit upon the Navy that they have been able to protect the transports so well. The Mediterranean is a very important sea, but the English Channel is more important to this country. The English Channel is vital. When I think that at this present moment the Germans have been able to establish a great base at Zeebrugge, I cannot help saying that if I were the dictator of the Allied strategy I should take the Armies from Gaza and Salonika and put them in charge of General Smuts and land them at Calais or Boulogne and advance on the Northern coast of Belgium and with the guns of the Fleet on its left flank clear out that hornets' nest at Zeebrugge. But I am not in charge. I have made these suggestions this afternoon in no spirit of criticism. I want to help the Government. I have supported them all the way through, and I am perfectly certain that this country, if it is assured that the Government is utilising our resources to the best advantage, will support it until it has won a victory such as I hope may be consummated within the next few months.

In the first place, as an old Member, I should like to congratulate the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Marriott) on his speech, and more especially on that part of it with regard to economy, a matter too long neglected in this House. I should also like to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman (Sir H. Dalziel) on the close time for criticism of the Government, which he is largely credited with creating, having been raised. I hope we shall hear some more of it from him. With regard to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the first place, I congratulate him on the very sympathetic references he made to our Army and to one particular branch of it, the Flying Corps, but he rather reminded me of Jack Horner, who picked out all the plums. He told us of our successes. He had nothing to say about our difficulties. He adroitly evaded all these other burning subjects which are exercising our minds at present. When I entered the House to-day I had not the faintest intention of taking part in the Debate, but I hope to have an opportunity to-morrow of speaking with some freedom and an absence of that restraint which I feel I must impose upon myself when speaking in public. But I protest most strongly against the extravagance which has characterised every Government Department since the very beginning of this War. There has been no restraint placed upon the Government. Millions have ceased to have any meaning. Chancellor after Chancellor asks for millions in the most airy manner, and the House of Commons has become an emasculated assembly. This House, which asserted its right against Kings and against the House of Lords for absolute control of the public purse, has surrendered its powers to an autocratic Government, a Government which does not give us the least information as to how money is being spent. When Votes are presented in this House they are merely Token Votes and convey no meaning whatever. I should think there is hardly a Member in the House who has not personal knowledge of instances of the most wilful and wasteful extravagance in every direction. Extravagance by Government Departments seems to be looked upon as synonymous with efficiency, when as a matter of fact the very reverse is the case, and the strictest economy ought to be practised in every Department. We are spending not only revenue but capital, and we are hanging round our own neck and the necks of future generations millions of debt which will weigh us down, and yet this House of Commons is absolutely subservient. It does not even criticise the acts of the Government. We have had an oligarchical Government, and, what with secretaries, under-secretaries, private secretaries, controllers, directors, and others, the Government has roped in a very large number of Members of the House and muzzled them. Fortunately there are a few independent Members who refuse to bow the knee to the House of Rimmon, and I only hope they will assert themselvés in criticising the Government and its reckless and gross expenditure.

We have abandoned in this War all the policy of the past. We have become a great military Power. We have created a magnificent Army. In heroism and courage and the efficiency of the men it is second to none in the whole world. We are proud of the Army, but many sacrifices have been made to create it. We have sacrificed our commerce, our trade, and our industries. We have sacrificed even our Navy and our merchant tonnage for the sake of the Army, by drawing away into it skilled men who ought to be engaged in our shipyards and workshops. It would be the irony of fate if we, the greatest naval and maritime Power in the world, should be winning the War on land and be checkmated on the sea, and by reason of one branch of naval architecture of which the country had warning. Admiral Sir Percy Scott long before the War pointed out the potentialities of the submarine, but of course he was laughed at. We have criticised the Army and the War Office in the past, and the War Office has benefited by that criticism. But we have abstained from criticism of the Admiralty and the Navy. The Admiralty has been treated as sacrosanct. In fact, it is within the recollection of the House that last year the then First Lord interposed at a very early stage in the Debate and hoped that no one would criticise his Department. It is owing to that attitude that we are in the position that we are in to-day. I think my right hon. Friend (Mr. Balfour) had the surprise of his life on that day, and I hope the criticism has done good. I charge this Government and the last Government not only with the most wanton extravagance, but with an absolute want of foresight. They made no preparations. Obvious actions have been neglected. I remember in February, 1915, I advised the Government to establish national granaries, to give the farmers a fixed price or a minimum price for their wheat and to bring in all the wheat they could from abroad, and by following the example of Joseph of old we should be able to defy famine and war. The then Government started in a limited measure to carry out that policy. A Wheat Commission was established, which bought wheat in various parts of the world. Fortunately there was a bumper harvest in the Argentine, but it was only continued for a period. The Deputy-Chairman of this House was the Chairman of a Committee in connection with it. I am told the reason why the purchases of wheat were discontinued was the absence of ships to carry grain to this country. Why was there an absence of ships? Because of the wasteful and extravagant use of merchant shipping by the Admiralty and by the War Office. We gave instances, and I think I had it from you yourself, Sir, that I became a nuisance in constantly pointing out the wasteful use of merchant shipping. We have risen to great heights in our generosity to our Allies. We have given them British ships in extravagant numbers. We have had ships tied up in the White Sea. We have far-flung expeditions which require shipping. I have pointed out time and again the wasteful use which is still going on and which has produced a position of grave danger at present.

6.0 P.M.

I do not wish to follow the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lambert) into the operations of the submarine and other things. I could tell a very long tale in connection with this, and I could give the House probably some startling information in connection with them, but we are told that to do so would be giving information to the enemy. It seems to me we do not require to give much information to the enemy. He can give it to us if he chooses to. I have raised the question of Zeebrugge. The late First Lord of the Admiralty jeered at me, but if Zeebrugge had been dealt with as it ought to have been in the earlier stages we should not have had these excursions across the North Sea and our coasts bombarded and our civilians, women and children, slain. I asked a supplemental question of the First Lord the other day regarding our defensive minefields. I asked how it was that enemy destroyers could apparently pass through our defensive minefields with impunity to bombard our coasts. He told the House he could not explain it. I could explain it, but I do not choose to do so in public. It would be ridiculous to say, if I did explain it, that it would be giving information to the enemy, because the enemy knows those minefields well. I do not want to criticise individuals or Departments, but we have got one Controller after another and one Director after another until we do not know where we are. We have a Controller of Shipping. Not one word would I say about Sir Joseph Maclay except words of praise, but he has been given one of the labours of Hercules. He has to clean out the Augean stables before things will be as they ought to be. It reminds me of a good man struggling with adversity; and not the least of his handicaps are some of the gentlemen who are connected with him. I hope he will have the firmness to deal with them. My right hon. Friend opposite has spoken of this country being a beleaguered city, and we are in that position. Optimistic speakers will not win this War. The great proportion of the people of this country are living in a fool's paradise, and they will not listen to suggestions about voluntary rationing. I know that when the Prime Minister spoke at the Guildhall or at the American luncheon—of course, one is rather optimistic at these functions—he was speaking to two audiences. He was speaking to our enemies, the Germans, and to the people of this country, and therefore he made these optimistic statements, which will really do no good in this War. I think the Prime Minister might well have said this, if he wished to speak to those two audiences—We have a certain amount of food in this country. We are in the position of a beleaguered city. The siege will be raised within a certain time. We have ample food to last out the siege; but to make assurance doubly sure, and to cover any unforseen circumstances, although we have ample food in our beleaguered city, I propose to put the garrison upon one-half rations, whereby we can extend the period of our siege by double.

No good will be done in this country by voluntary rationing. In some parts of the country the people hardly know that they are at war, except that they are deriving benefit from it. Some of them are enjoying the War. The country at the present moment is suffering from the evils of unusually high wages. Many wage-earners at the present moment never earned wages at all before this War, and many who were earning comparatively small wages before the War are now earning four, five, six, and eight times those wages. The result is when they have never had the handling of such money before they are not thrifty, they are not careful, and having the money they think they might as well spend it. How do they spend it? As we have been told, great numbers have been living on the verge of starvation, and the first thing they do with their money is to spend it on food. We all know in many of the manufacturing districts and the populous districts of the North the working classes live at a very high standard in regard to food, and they spare no expense in that respect. [An HON. MEMBER: "They want it."] I believe at the present moment that the intelligent people throughout the country, whether of the better classes or the poorer classes, realising the situation, are saving food by rationing themselves voluntarily, but the great bulk of the people are not doing so, and it is useless for the Food Controller to expect that the whole country will voluntarily ration itself. With regard to shipping, the Shipping Controller is doing all he can to build ships, and they are buying ships, but it is a long way to replacing the losses. So far as the standard ships go, perhaps I might be permitted to say that there is a good deal of window-dressing about them. Then we are told that America is going to help us. Yes, America is giving us great moral and financial help in this War, but when it comes down to material help, how long will it be before America is able to supply our deficiency in ships? How long will it be before the German ships which were, I will not say interned, but securely ensconced in American ports are able to bring cargoes?

My hon. Friend is not far wrong. Say three months. I understand that the only ship in American ports the machinery of which was not damaged very severely was the "Vaterland," and action of the captain of that vessel was so appreciated by the American Government that he is at liberty on parole, whilst all the other masters and crews of the other German ships which have been put out of commission by serious damage are interned. We cannot expect any immediate help or relief from the 1,000 wooden ships which are being built. They will take a considerable time to complete. The first of them will not be in the water at the very earliest before September. It is a question of time for us, and the time is not altogether on our side. If we had had six months' supply of wheat in this country we could have laughed at the submarine peril. I am not going to say how many week's supply of wheat we have in the country. I am not going to say how many weeks' or months' supplies we have with the addition of the other cereals, with which we can, I will not say adulterate our loaves, but increase our loaves, but I have a very shrewd idea. The submarine peril ought to have been seen, and was seen. Why, then, was it not dealt with? Because the Admiralty was in a state of somnolence or sleeping sickness for a considerable period. I know a good deal which I dare not say, but I would like to know many things in connection with the Admiralty that were in existence there when the present First Lord went there. I have the greatest admiration for my right hon. Friend the present Foreign Secretary, who has found a mission at the present time for which he is eminently suited—but a philosopher is not a good fighting man. We want, and always have wanted, a good fighting man at the Admiralty. I do not want to follow my right Friends who have spoken into the question of the submarine, but it is an extraordinary coincidence that on the Admiralty trade routes which are laid down and which our captains have rigorously followed, that enemy submarines appear in great numbers. It will come out, I suppose. At Question Time to-day I put a supplemental question to the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty on this subject. Only last week one British ship was sunk by shell fire from three German submarines on the surface, and the captain, chief officer, a gunner, and some of the crew were killed. How is it that when these ships of ours are sunk on the Admiralty routes, sometimes by torpedo, sometimes by shell fire, these submarines are there? They will go further afield. Fourteen months ago, in an article which I was requested to write to the Press, and which has proved to be absolutely prophetic, I pointed out that the Germans had then standardised their submarines, and were building their parts all over the country, assembling them at their ports, and turning them out in great numbers. I prophesied what would take place. What I prophesied has taken place, and is taking place to-day. If a layman without any information from the Admiralty can know that, how much more ought the Admiralty to have known? If I had sufficient imagination or foresight to see that, why could not the Admiralty see it and why could not the Government see it?

My right hon. Friend referred to the question of coloured men and coloured troops. So far back as November, 1914, I made an offer to the War Office to raise, equip, and bring over at my own expense battalions of fighting South Africans, Zulus, and others, but that offer was turned down. The House may remember that when I asked a question referring to machine guns at the beginning of the War I was insulted across the floor of the House by the then Under-Secretary for War. If a layman—and I only claim ordinary intelligence—has been able to see these things, why did not the Government see them, and why did not this Government or the last Government provide for these things? There is a lack of foresight and a lack of policy and a lack of intelligence. The present Prime Minister said of the late Government that they were too late in everything. It would be well if he takes heed that the words "too late" are not written above the grave of the present Government. This is the time for action. Speeches will not win this War. The one serious question that we have to deal with is summed up in the one word "food." What follows from the word "food"? Ships. You cannot hasten the harvest. The President of the Board of Agriculture would not venture to prophesy what sort of a harvest we are going to have. I hope it will be a good one, not only for his sake, but for the country's sake. The pressing question is the question of food, and that raises the question of submarines. I hope that tomorrow we shall be told the truth, and not have a fiasco of a secret session such as we had before. To deal with this question we ought to have a Secret Session, with the Ministers in the witness-box, where they could be under cross-examination and questions put to, them, not simply for one Member after another to get up to air their own views, giving Ministers the opportunity of replying when they choose or, if they think fit, not to reply at all. The only way to elicit the truth is in the witness-box, and with the witness on oath, and then I think we should get the truth. I hope that tomorrow we shall not only have the truth, but a solution given to us of dealing with this submarine danger.

No member of the Labour party so far has taken upon himself the responsibility of saying anything on the subject now before the House. I want, without having specific authority, to take the opportunity of identifying myself with the congratulations which have been offered to the Leader of the House for the very frank and, I think, very brief way in which he put the case involving such tremendous issues. I should not have risen at this moment but for the suggestion made by the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kirkcaldy Burghs (Sir H. Dalziel) that coloured labour should be introduced to meet the emergencies of the War.

I understood the right. hon. Gentleman the Member for Kirkcaldy to suggest the introduction of coloured labour into our workshops?

I have always made it perfectly clear that I was utterly opposed to the introduction of coloured labour of any kind into this country for any purpose whatever.

I was going to suggest that if it was intended to advocate that coloured labour should be introduced into the workshops of the country, then the Gentleman making that suggestion should be sent on a mission to the workshops and the leaders of the trade union movement in this country, and if they went on such a mission they would get the warmest and stormiest reception which they have ever had in their lives. The Leader of the House, in reply to a question this afternoon, made some remark on the subject of the industrial unrest which is now existing in Lancashire. Nobody regrets more deeply than I do that any section of the working people of this country feel that they should protest strongly by downing tools when we are facing such a supremely grave situation as that which now confronts us. But if the Munitions Department, in introducing these new Regulations, and these new amendments of the Munitions Act, had made it specifically clear that it is not intended in any way as anything but a war measure, which is to last merely for the duration of the War, then this dispute in Lancashire would not have taken place. Had that been made sufficiently clear we should not have had this trouble to-day. I met with large numbers of men, before I came up from my own Constituency, who de- clared that the Government intended to hang them up for seven years after the War, and take away their liberty for that period. We all know that that is due to an entire misconception. But it arises out of the complications which are sometimes involved in setting forth the facts relating to what is intended to apply to workers in the workshops of the country.

I hope that in future, at any rate, steps will be taken to make it more perfectly clear to the workers that this does not extend beyond the end of the War. If the men have acted—as I believe they have—under a misconception and the feeling that they had a definite grievance that the Government were not giving them that consideration which their patriotic services demanded, then by governmental action by some intelligible process this misconception should be explained, and the situation which has arisen, I am sure, cannot last long. As a Labour representative, I do strongly deprecate any suggestion of downing tools in the grave national situation through which we are passing. At the same time, I would not put all the responsibility on the men for action of that kind. In future, at any rate, may I suggest, with all the seriousness and responsibility of the position which I hold, that the Government should make perfectly clear that in any future alteration connected with the regulation of workshops and the conditions under which the men are to work, it is not intended to take advantage of war conditions to exploit the men whose services are being rendered so patriotically at the present time. I take this view, and have done so always when speaking to the workpeople in the workshops. At the personal request of the late Lord Kitchener, who was War Minister, I have gone into nearly all the workshops and factories in Lancashire and Yorkshire, and I have enforced this view of the situation on all those who I have addressed—that their whole exertions should be given to save the country if they are even to save their own trade unions and their own regulations and conditions, and that, therefore, their first consideration should be the winning of the War and the bringing about of a complete victory of our arms on sea and land.

Service in the trenches is very important—indispensably important—but service at the benches is equally as important as service in the trenches. Without the one the other would be more or less paralysed. Therefore I feel that the rights, privileges, conditions, rules and regulations which these men have built up by half a century's struggle should not be disturbed without the gravest and most serious consideration, and when the Munitions Department are preparing their alterations in the Munitions Act, and other matters concerning the industrial situation in the country, the greatest possible care should be exercised to satisfy the men that there is no intention on the part of the Government or of this House to interfere with their ordinary privileges after the end of the War. It is that disturbing suspicion which is doing so much mischief at this time, the innate suspicion which they have that some advantage is going to be taken of them under the pretext of national exigencies, and they say that it is for nothing of the kind and that it is simply that after the War we shall have a tremendous struggle to bring back the normal conditions which obtained before the War. It is to be regretted that there should be any possibility of that suspicion existing. I hope that no Member—not even those Members who do not whole heartedly identify themselves with the support of the War—of the Labour party will even contemplate any opposition to this Vote of Credit. We have, I think, as a whole up to now supported every Vote of Credit that has been brought forward and we have done it conscientiously, and on principle, believing that it means everything to the working class and every other class in this country to first of all concentrate our, thoughts on everything that will bring about speedy victory in this great and terrible War.

I do not know whether I should be justified in referring to another matter. I find that there are workmen who are now in the Army coming back and getting into contact with their colleagues, side by side with whom they have already worked, and giving them the information—I do not know whether there is any justification for it—that if they are found to have committed, or are alleged to have committed, some misdemeanour or some breach of discipline they are not given a fair and proper chance of defence. They have not the opportunity. I do not know whether the machinery exists or not, but I do think that as we give the ordinary prisoner at the bar the fullest opportunity for his own defence, a similar opportunity should be given to our own men. For instance, I may refer to a case, the facts of which I have learnt. A commissioned officer was alleged to have done an act which contravened the disciplinary arrangements of the Army. He has, I believe, an unquestionable case to prove that he did no such thing, and to this day he has never been given the opportunity of satisfying his commanding officer or a court-martial on the point. He has not been allowed even to appear to justify his own position. If men bring back those stories it does no good whatever. It cannot help the country in any possible way. There should be no autocracy of that kind in their treatment in the Army. I believe in discipline, both industrially and nationally, as well as in the Army, but I have a feeling that if an officer has a preconceived prejudice, and he plays upon his subordinate by that preconceived prejudice, then that is distinctly wrong, and ought not to exist in any of the services of our country. I would like to submit the case to which I refer to any impartial tribunal that can be produced in order to prove that distinguished men in the Army, who have probably done heroic service in one way or another, have not given a subordinate a fair chance of explaining his own position.

I do not know that I desire to prolong this Debate in any way, although I do urge upon the Munitions Department and the War Office, when they are bringing in any measure affecting great bodies of working people in this country, that the greatest care should be taken in order to avoid any chance of impressing them with what to them appears to be the fact, that an attempt is being made to exploit their labour in the interests of the profiteer engaged in war work, munitions, and that kind of thing. How is it that these men are deceived? Let me explain. It is not they who are profiteering; it is not the working classes that have been adopting a policy of profiteering. It may be said that they are earning big wages, but if they are, are they not justified in putting those wages in their pockets? They are worked for. Is it suggested that they are not worked for? The workers have not intrigued, they have not gone beneath the surface in order to take advantage of the present situation. [Interruption.] If my hon. Friend believes that the employers have a clean sheet on this matter there is nothing more for me to say on behalf of the workmen; but I must be satisfied that they have clean hands in this matter, for I cannot help recalling the fact that, after all, these men have made money through this War. That cannot be denied for a moment. How is it that since firms became controlled money has been spent upon improvements of works, upon buildings, and upon offices, and in other ways, that it would never have been spent before the War, thus showing at once that it is not on the backs of the workmen that we must place the responsibility of profiteering in this War? I would not accept that for a moment. I do not say that they are all angels, by a long way, but I do say that the working men of this country have shown a patriotism, a loyalty, and a whole-hearted enthusiasm in their desire to do their best for the country, in the most trying and exceptional conditions that have ever obtained in connection with their work.

I unfortunately did not hear the remarks of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but I am informed that the Vote now asked for is to last until some day in August, and that, at the present moment, our expenditure is something over £7,000,000 a day, though that is a temporary matter. During the Debate on the Budget my right hon. Friend said that he had not alluded to economy. I think some hon. Member observed that there was nothing about economy in his speech, and I understood him to say that at a later period he would make some remarks upon that subject. I unfortunately did not hear them if he did make them, but hope, in view of the very large sum required, for we have already reached, perhaps unavoidably, over £7,000,000 of expenditure a day, that quick economy will not be forgotten by my right hon. Friend, and, that he will do a little more than put it on his notes, and then not make the speech which he had originally intended to make. I desire to say a few words upon the question which I raised in the House on Monday with regard to the sinking of ships carrying food to this country. That this is a very important question no one will deny, and that it is one which demands instant action, I think, will also be admitted by everyone in whatever quarter of the House he may happen to sit. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Shipping (Sir Leo Chiozza Money) asked me to meet him and the Parliamen- tary Secretary to the Board of Admiralty, and a naval officer, in their room downstairs yesterday, and I had the opportunity of meeting them and hearing all they had to say. What was said is supposed to he confidential, because they took the opportunity of giving me certain information which could not very well be repeated in the House. I also had the opportunity, for what it was worth, of laying my views before them. I do not know, but I rather fancy—perhaps I am too sanguine—that I a little impressed both the representatives of the Departments.

Hear, hear.

However that may be, I hope the Committee will allow me to place before them the views which, after considerable trouble in investigating this matter, I have arrived at it. I do not want to go into the next question as to how many ships may or may not have been sunk, but it is admitted by the Government that two ships carrying food have been sunk, one a fortnight ago, and one a short time ago. Though I do not wish to be highly critical and personal, I think that on a subject like this one ought to be highly critical. It may be said that mistakes will occur, but when a ship was sunk with a cargo of food on board, after she had already entered a port and then was sent to another port, and was then sunk on her way, they might have said that they could not help it, that they did, not know themselves what might happen, but that they would take precautions that nothing of that sort would occur again. But, unfortunately, they did not say that, and a second case occurred. We have now to consider what ought to be done. I think that everyone will admit that this sort of thing cannot go on. My idea is that when a ship comes into port carrying foodstuffs, that foodstuff ought to be discharged in that port. You ought to be thankful enough that you have got the vessel into port in safety, and when it has got on board what you particularly want, namely, food, you should get that food out of it. It is said that this is rather difficult to do, and that there may not be warehouse accommodation, that there may not be a sufficient staff, or that there may not be sufficient means to unload the vessel, or that if there were, and if they could get the cargo off the vessel, there were not sufficient means for its distribution in the different areas of the country, I do not attach any weight to any of those arguments, and I think they can all be proved to be arguments which ought not to have been advanced, and which can be dealt with.

The Government have been creating a very large number of different Departments and officers. What are they for? They are there to meet special difficulties and special requirements which arise in the emergency of war. They are not there to occupy palaces and hotels, to have staffs, and to sit round a table. They are there to do something. Take, first of all, the question of facilities. It has been pointed out to me—I am very careful not to mention the name of the port—that a certain vessel arrived with a cargo of meat. I am told that there was no use in landing that meat unless there was a refrigerating chamber. I am not a butcher, and I do not know how long frozen meat will keep, but at any rate, it would have been better to have the meat on the land than under the sea. But such an argument does not apply to wheat or cereals. It may be said, "We have not got the labour." The hon. Member opposite has been talking about labour, and in what I am going to say I am not going to suggest that it is the labourers who cause difficulties; I do not know, but I think it is probable that it is not. If there was no labour, then a large number of soldiers could have been telegraphed for, and four battalions of soldiers would have unloaded the ship in double quick time. Why not do that? Then comes the question: What is to be done with the grain when landed? I think it is not advisable to put it in wagons and leave it waiting about, but a temporary shed could be very easily erected. All that is wanted for the storage of wheat is a dry floor with metal or wooden walls, and roofing. I am supposing the worst case, where facilities do not exist. I say such a temporary shelter for grain could be put up in a very short time. If you go to St. James's Park you may see a number of buildings which have been put up, and not so long ago one was erected for the Shipping Controller. No member of the Committee will say that it is impossible, within a few days, to run up a temporary structure which would prevent the grain from going bad.

Then as to facilities for getting it away. I do not myself believe there is any difficulty about that either. I quite admit that you could not land the whole of the grain in London, or at one or two of the Western ports, and then expect the railways to take it all away. But the railways would remove a very considerable quantity of these goods, and, even if there was a little delay, it would be better that the goods should be kept in temporary warehouses on the land than that they should be lost. I myself, therefore, can see no difficulty whatever, and what really is wanted is quick decision and quick action. The hon. Gentleman told the House when I asked a question that this matter was under the serious consideration of the Government. We want a little more than that. It is not really a very difficult thing to do. I was going to say that as a business man, but I will not say that because it is rather a hackneyed phrase, but an energetic person, who really put his back into it, would be able to deal with the work in a very short time. I am told that there is a good deal of difficulty—and I do not know whether there is any truth in it—because the Admiralty, the War Office, the Shipping Controller, and the Board of Trade have to be consulted, and then there are the railway companies, and between them there is a good deal of delay. There ought to be someone to control the lot. I saw in the papers the question asked, "Who controls the Controllers?" We want someone to control the Controllers, and in this case a director would be a very good thing, especially if he had power to see that food once got into port was kept there. Then comes the question of the handling of cargo with other means than by men. I saw from a letter in the "Times" to-day that there are portable machines which can be used for the unloading of cargo, and the writer of the letter states that the London and North-Western Railway, at certain docks, could unload a certain quantity of cargo within ten hours, and he adds that it would take the Government, with the methods they employ, four times as long to do with the same amount of work. I do not know whether that is true, but it was stated in a letter to the "Times." Here is another matter in which my information apparently is correct. If I am wrong, I am only too glad, but I think it is possible such a thing might occur, and that is this, that vessels arrive at a given port after the time of the closing of the port—we will say seven o'clock—and are compelled to stay out, subject to the risk of being torpedoed, because the time for closing had arrived. Surely that is nonsense. There should be no time of closing a port, except where there is not sufficient water to get in or through darkness or some such cause. Short of navigating causes, there should be no time for closing a port when we are fighting for our national existence. We ought to have officials ready at any time to see that the necessary work is carried out. I sincerely trust that the Government will really give some consideration to this problem. If they do the House of Commons will have done some good by the questions which have been asked, and if they can show that in this matter some action has at last been taken. Can the hon. Gentleman give me any information as to whether the statement that the "Clydesdale" is lost is correct or not?

I am very much obliged to the right hon. Baronet for the opportunity which he has just given to me to contradict a statement he was misled into suggesting in a question recently addressed to me by way of supplementary questions. He asked whether a ship named the "Clydesdale" had perished in the same way as another ship to which he had referred. I am glad to inform him that two ships, one a small coasting vessel and the other an ocean steamer, which rejoice in the name of "Clydesdale," are both safe and sound at the present time. I am glad he referred to that, for this reason—that the public attention, and the very proper public attention, which has been directed to this exceptionally important subject has somewhat unduly alarmed the public with regard to matters in this connection, and has given rise to exaggerated stories and to the suggestion that a very, very large number of cases have recently occurred of the kind which has been specifically referred to by the right hon. Baronet and others who have addressed interrogatories to me at Question Time. As a matter of fact, the thing is serious enough without encouraging exaggeration. I do want the Committee to believe that my right hon. Friend the Shipping Controller, for whom I have the honour to speak here, does not treat this subject lightly, and does not wait even on suggested questions to make inquiries and to take action. As a matter of fact—and I am speaking for myself for the moment—I was closely inquiring into this subject before a single question ever appeared on the Order Paper of this House. I can only say that my questions have certainly not been less critical than those others. It is quite impossible to give the whole of this case to the House. I could not do it without telling the House precisely what are the Admiralty dispositions in these matters. I could not now make plain to the House what the case is.

I could not now make plain the precise nature of the case or the degree of the case without, of course, giving information which ought certainly not to be given here. I would like to say in that connection that I deplore these constant suggestions that the enemy is a superhuman creature who knows everything. That is not true. His public utterances show that he is very much in the dark on a great many of these matters, and so far as I am concerned I shall endeavour to keep him so. I can either give a fuller explanation tomorrow, if desired, or any hon. Member can have a Secret Session all to himself so far as I am concerned. I am quite ready to tell any hon. Member in confidence what are the real facts of the case, so that he can thoroughly understand it for himself. I had the opportunity of telling the right hon. Baronet and several other hon. Members, and I am sure they felt that the larger part of the case falls to the ground by virtue of the very serious facts which I cannot frankly give on this occasion.

I quite saw that there were certain things which we could not discuss here, which were very difficult and made my position very difficult, but I do not think that there was anything to prevent what I have suggested to-day being done.

I say with all confidence to the right hon. Baronet, as an experienced business man, that, doing everything we might and everything we could within any reasonable time we could not make provision for the landing of all cargoes from those ships.

Could you not have sent the ships to ports at which they could have been discharged?

That is exactly what is done. I will come to that question in proper order. I turn to the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel). He asked why is it that when a ship has passed through the danger zone we do not then make sure of it? As a matter of fact that ship had not passed the danger zone. As he will see on consideration that raises the very point of strategic consideration with which I cannot frankly deal now.

It has not passed right through the danger zone when it reaches the ports in discussion. It is just because it has not done that, that certain considerations arise and certain action becomes necessary which caused many of the difficulties in these cases, and difficulties which I can only tell hon. Members privately or to-morrow at the Secret Session. Putting that on one side let me come to what I can deal with fully and frankly. What the House has the right to demand has been well expressed by the right hon. Baronet, and it is this: That if and when a ship safely arrives at these shores bringing a valuable cargo—and any cargo brought to this country at present ought to be a valuable cargo; in fact we are doing our best to see that it is so—when, I say, the ship touches any ports for any reason whatever we ought to do our best to secure that cargo before it goes to any other port. Hon. Members have referred to the food cargoes only, but I go further, and say that any cargo should be so treated whenever it is possible to do so. That proposition is a common-sense proposition, and it is so self-evident that it would seem almost absurd even to endorse it. But here we have got a country which has been developed fortunately or unfortunately without regard to the exigencies of War. Germany had her military railways and her strategic plan. We thought it was enough—and I do not think there was anybody in this House who did not think it was enough—to rely upon an all powerful Navy, and for the rest our railways could run where they pleased and our ports could be developed just as ordinary commercial considerations suggested, without regard to the possibilities of war or in any other way from that which we conceived, namely, that an all-powerful Navy rendered all such strategical considerations unneces- sary. That is the position in which the Ministry of Shipping finds matters. The Ministry of Shipping finds itself, after the greater part of nearly three years of war, with railways undeveloped in the strategic sense and with ports largely undeveloped in the strategic sense. The House knows whether that is the fault of the Ministry of Shipping. The right hon. Baronet said that it is our business to develop every sort of accommodation that would make it possible to land even a few of these cargoes rather than risk any of them. That is actually what we are doing. When I used the word "inquiry" recently, I used it in the sense of inquiry leading to prompt action, and I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that it was only in that sense I used it. I have told the Committee that this statement may seem incomplete, and I am quite sure it is; but if any hon. Member will be good enough to speak to me in private on the matter, I will show him the major difficulty which has not necessarily been revealed in the remarks I have made.

7.0 P.M.

Somebody asked whether we are gambling in wheat. So far as the Ministry of Shipping is concerned, our duty in regard to wheat is to provide tonnage to carry as much wheat as can be carried to this country. On that I can say we are giving priority to bread. We have arranged a system of tonnage priority, and we are doing it in this way: On the one hand, we make a wide and liberal estimate of losses, and on the other we take account of what we may expect legitimately to add in new ships, etc. We thus forecast how much cargo we shall be able to bring to this country month by month in the forthcoming months, and having made that estimate—and so far our estimate has been singularly accurate—we address ourselves to the needs of the country, and then engage in consultation with the different Departments of the State which are responsible in this matter. The Food Controller is responsible for the food of the country, the Ministry of Munitions for munitions of war, the War Office for the wool and the other things which they control, the Admiralty for their requirements, and finally the Board of Trade in respect of those things—they are becoming a more and more limited number—which are required for the conduct and sustenance of the civilian population apart from the bare necessaries of life. I say that by making an estimate and compari- son of these things we arrive, to the best of our judgment, in consultation with the different Departments, at a computation of the things which can in the interests of the country best be carried. Thus, on the one hand we have a balance sheet of what can be carried, and on the other hand of what it is best to carry. Having arrived at that decision we adjust priority, and, as I have said, we give priority to bread. So far as the Ministry of Shipping is concerned certainly there is nothing in the nature of a gamble as to wheat. One word more A week or two has elapsed since I addressed the House. On the few occasions I have had the privilege of addressing the House from this bench I have never disguised, nor shall I disguise from the House, my opinion, which right or wrong is at any rate based upon a most careful and anxious examination from day to day—that the tonnage position is exceedingly serious. But if I am asked, in reply to one or two observations which have fallen from hon. and right hon. Gentlemen to-day, to say whether I am more or less hopeful to-night than I was when I last spoke on this subject I would only say I am more hopeful than ever, that given proper prudence, foresight, and the necessary arrangements, we can see our way through with success in regard to the tonnage problem.

The subject which I desire the House for a few minutes to give some attention to seems, at first sight, to be very far removed from that which has been under consideration by the House. It seems a long way from London to Athens. But, in truth, in this great War—we are constantly being told it—we have but one front, one world source of food supply, one aim, one object, and that a victorious peace with honour. This subject of the relations between the Governments of the United Kingdom and her Allies upon the one hand and the Government of Athens and of Salonika on the other touches very closely both the successful conduct of the War itself and the honour of the countries engaged. The question is not only one of the gravest possible character; it is also one of great delicacy, and as such I hope to handle it. It may be I shall have occasion to ask the Government certain very definite questions. If they prefer, and consider it more in the public interest, that an answer to those questions should be deferred until the private sitting to-morrow I shall have no objection. I desire, however, to say what I have to say in public, and for this reason: that the matter touches, as I have said, the honour of this country, and it is the fact that our friends—imagine there is no ambiguity about the term "our friends"—are becoming unhappily—and it is by no means strange—more restless owing to the long continued silence maintained by His Majesty's Government on the subject, and the very equivocal position in which the Entente Powers find themselves.

In its broad outline the situation in Greece is a pretty simple one. We have two parties—our friends, open, declared, and loyal; and we have our enemies, open and secret. One would suppose that our Government and the other Allied Governments would, under these circumstances, have found their policy fairly simple—to help their friends and to defeat their enemies. Unfortunately, that is not exactly how the situation has developed. Therefore, it becomes necessary to ask what exactly is the position at the present time? I am not going to make any attack whatever upon King Constantine, and that for three very good reasons. In the first place, I shall make no attack, because of the old and excellent tradition of this House which enjoins courtesy and deference towards the personage whom Mr. Speaker himself described as "at present neutral and one who must be treated as technically the Sovereign of a friendly State." The second reason is because I, at any rate, take the view that if we have fewer friends in Greece than we should desire it is in a very large measure our own fault, and I am not going to talk upon the past or to develop it. The third reason is one even of greater substance. I am convinced that neither in Greece nor any other country can you do a worse service to your friends than by giving any sort of colour whatever to the libel that is sure to be brought against them, to which every politician in every country under these circumstances is liable, that he is the mere tool and instrument of foreign interference. Therefore, I shall leave that part of the question altogether aside.

It looks as if some big events were impending. It is not for us, then, to tell Greece what form of Government they should prefer; for my own part I think that any interference on our part would certainly be impertinent and would possibly be merely mischievous. I am, there- fore, going to leave that part aside. But there is one thing we can do; we can at least refrain from preventing the Greek people, if they wish to do so, from declaring themselves in a sense favourable to the Entente. We can help the friends that we have already instead of hindering them. That is a very simple, and a not very ambitious programme. It is the least one would have thought that would have commended itself to the Entente! What is the position? It is one which would be absolutely incredible if it were not true. I have two specific instances of the policy pursued. In the first place, let me deal with the least important of the two. I take the position of the Greek fleet being taken over by the Entente powers after the events of 1st and 2nd December. I say the less important of the two subjects. I shall be corrected if I am wrong—I am not at all a naval authority—but I understand the vessels in question are not of first class naval importance.

An hon. Friend near me says they would certainly be very useful. At any rate, they would be extremely useful both for policing those very dangerous waters, and in assisting the reinforcement of the Salonika Army. There would be the other advantage: it is undoubtedly true that their possession would immediately enhance the prestige of M. Venizelos and his Government. I am informed that again and again most pressing requests have been made by M. Venizelos to His Majesty's Government and their Allies for the possession of these vessels. Until a very short time ago no notice whatever appears to have been taken of these requests. I understand that in the last few days three of the smaller vessels have actually been handed over. I do not press for an answer to this query, because I have a question on the Paper to-morrow. I shall then be glad to hear, for I presume some answer to the question will be given, the Leader of the Government give in full the reasons which have prevented them from doing what seems a very natural and obvious thing.

It is more the obvious and natural, because I understand the Government of Salonika has long been in a position to supply both crews and equipment for the vessels, and I should imagine the transfer of these vessels to the authority of M. Venizelos would be immensely appreciated by the friends of the Entente in a free Greece. The second point is to my mind of even greater importance. It has a double importance, the practical importance and its importance as a sign of friendship for the Venizelos Government. From both points of view the second matter is really of absolutely vital importance. I mean here the question of the guarantees which we gave some months ago to the Government of Athens to the effect that the Allies would neither land men nor allow the extension of the Venizelist movement in the territories hitherto occupied by the State of the kingdom of Greece, and that the Venizelist authorities and officials would not be accepted in any, place occupied in Old Greece. These guarantees by no means remain a dead-letter. I wonder very much whether the British public realises that at the present moment a body of French and English troops are employed, as I understand it, for no other purpose than to form a guard for the purpose of preventing the Venizelist movement spreading into Thessaly and other parts of Old Greece. It really seems hardly credible when you consider what the Venizelist movement is, but it is true. We have reason to know, or good reason to believe, that the people of Thessaly and Old Greece are, or were quite recently, friendly to M. Venizelos. It is we, therefore, who prevent them from declaring on the side which is our side. We force them back on the Government of Athens, expose them to every sort of terror and intimidation, death and torture sometimes at the hands of the Irregulars of the Athens Government.

So much for them, but what about ourselves. We hear a great deal—I dare-say it is perfectly true—and no doubt we shall hear a great deal to-morrow, about the difficulty of shipping and railways, and all the rest of it, for our own Army at Salonika. Why is it, therefore, we deliberately augment all these difficulties by cutting the Army of our Greek Allies from their communication by land with Old Greece? We hear also a great deal about the single front. We are told, and told quite truly, that in this War there is only one front—that is to say, the front anywhere where anybody is fighting Germany or her allies. I believe it is perfectly true; but, if so, it does not matter whether a man is a Frenchman, or Englishman, or Russian, or Serbian, or Greek, if he is fighting the Bosche he is equally serviceable to our cause. Then why do we deliberately prevent reinforcements flowing out of Old Greece to the Venizelist Army—an army which has, during the last few days, entered with signal success into the fighting line? As I have said, I do not press for answers to-day, but I think they are very pertinent.

There is another point. Thessaly, which is very largely the district in dispute between the Athens and Salonika Governments, is one of the richest corn-growing districts in the world. The whole world is crying out for wheat. Thessaly is not only one of the richest cornfields in the world, but it is one of the earliest. I am told that crops will be ready in Thessaly in something like three weeks from now. If that is so, it is a subject of the most urgent importance. What are we going to do? At present we keep up an elaborate blockade of Athens, which inflicts a great deal of suffering—no doubt necessarily, and it cannot be helped—on a number of perfectly innocent people, and in doing that we necessarily incur a great deal of odium, and yet we are apparently prepared, by the deliberate exercise of our own military power, to hand over the harvest of Thessaly to the party opposed to us in Greece and to prevent it reaching our friends. Of all the pieces of lunacy it is possible to conceive, this does seem to me about the very worst.

What I am advocating for the moment is that we should cease to interfere. We are interfering and preventing the Venizelist movement from spreading. Those are very pertinent and very urgent questions, I think, and they are also specific questions, and I invite the Government and the House of Commons to consider them. There is one other thing which the House of Commons, I think, has a right to demand of the Government. Are there any "dark forces," as they have been called, which are preventing a reasonable solution of this question? If so, where are they? I am satisfied they are not in Paris. Since the revolution I do not think they can be in Petrograd. I can hardly believe they are in London. Well, I do not press for an answer, but I should like to hear about that to-morrow. I think it is the duty of our Government to see that no selfish and separate aims of any Power whatsoever are allowed to impede the progress of our arms or to tarnish the honour of our cause. That is all I desire to say upon the subject of Greece.

There is only one other matter, also relating to the Near East of Europe, which I desire just to mention. I understand that the greatest difficulties have arisen in relation to the supplies of bread sent hitherto by an organisation in this country through Switzerland to the Serbian prisoners. They are men who have fought with the most extraordinary bravery. I have not the actual numbers of those Serbian prisoners, but I think they are something like 60,000.

My hon. Friend says the number is nearly double that which I have mentioned. At any rate, up to the present it has been possible to send to those men food—a good deal smaller ration than that sent to our British prisoners because they are very hardy people, but, still, it has been possible to get that food through Switzerland. Now I hear that, owing to restrictions which have been placed by the Allied Governments on the import of flour into Switzerland, it is no longer possible to feed those prisoners. I do not know what the reason can be, although, of course, one may imagine that there is always the danger that food sent into a country for one purpose may be diverted to another, but we have taken that risk in the case of our own prisoners, and I do press upon the Government that we cannot possibly be indifferent to the fate of the Serbian prisoners, and we ought to exhaust every ounce of effort in order to maintain supplies necessary to keep those men alive. I believe the first subject to which I called attention to be vital to the successful conduct of the War. As to the second, I suppose that, when a prisoner. a man ceases to be of military importance; but, after all that has happened, if we are to leave the men of that country, which of all our Allies has suffered most in this War, to die of hunger, if we can prevent it—if any man dies of hunger whose life we can save, then I say, in the famous words used at the beginning of this War, "It will be a disgrace to the good name of this country from which it will never recover."

I hope my hon. Friend the Member for West Donegal (Mr. Hugh Law) will forgive me if I do not follow the argument in his speech, with which I cordially agree. Especially I hope he will follow up that point of bringing the Greek torpedo craft into use I happened to take an interest in the subject when the new Government was formed, and I took the trouble to go to the Admiralty and express the hope that they would bring these torpedo-boats into use as soon as possible, as we were having ships sunk by submarines off the coast at that time. If I may say so, the speech of the representative of the Shipping Controller illustrates one of the difficulties of the position the Committee is in by having a Secret Session to-morrow and the public Debate to-day. He referred us several times to the Secret Session tomorrow, and the result was my right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London really did not get a public answer at all to his speech. I would ask the Leader of the House to take into consideration the fact that we are putting the cart before the horse. We are debating without knowledge to-day. We shall possess the knowledge to-morrow, and then no Debate will follow in public, and therefore there will be no means for this House to instruct the general public. One of the arguments I believe the Shipping Controller desired to put forward was the difficulty at places like Plymouth as to the accommodation of the port in dealing with mercantile shipping. It is, of course, all very well to say that we could clear one ship, but the moment you put one ship into Plymouth, with limited accommodation for clearing ships, you block up the next one that comes along, because it take so much time, and I would venture to say that one of the obstacles to building up the accommodation at these ports suited to the new lines of traffic which are required in consequence of the submarine menace has been the lack of comradeship on the part of the Admiralty towards other Government Departments. I know that one of the things the present First Lord of the Admiralty has set himself to rectify, as he has done in regard to air matters, is to develop that spirit of comradeship at the Admiralty on which the Navy has always prided itself, and I sincerely hope that he will be successful. My right hon. Friend the Member for the South Molton Division (Mr. G. Lambert) spoke about the suppression of Mr. Pollen's article, and I understand other hon. Members are going to speak on that question. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend that it was unnecessary to suppress that article. I have read it. I would venture to say to the representatives of the Admiralty that they must not be too intolerant towards critics. After all, Mr. Pollen is a very responsible critic, and he is, in my judgment, one of the best informed critics, if not the best informed critic, in the public Press today. Now that naval officers themselves are prevented from criticising, and prevented from discussing things in public, we cannot too much encourage critics of the calibre of Mr. Pollen. Although I may not myself agree with exactly the way he put his points, I do not think the Admiralty ought to pay too much attention to the way points are put. It is the principle that matters. Here is a man who, when the country is in a great crisis, desires to put a certain point of view, which necessarily involves criticising the Admiralty chiefs. I know that my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty takes the view that he only should be criticised as the representative of the Admiralty, but the First Lord of the Admiralty has himself said that he intends to be guided by the sailors, and from that, point of view you are immediately driven to the conclusion that it is perfectly fair for Mr. Pollen, just like Admiral Sir Reginald Custance, to air his views as to whether the policy of the leading sailors at the Admiralty is a right and proper policy. The view which Mr. Pollen has endeavoured to put forward is one which many critics have endeavoured to make, and which I myself have put forward, namely, that the Navy not only prides itself on its spirit of comradeship, but also on the offensive spirit which has been handed down from the time of Nelson. Mr. Pollen put forward the point of view known to a great many sailors that for a long time past the Admiralty have been lacking in the offensive spirit. They point to the very start of the War, the abandonment of the North Sea, the attempt to hold both ends, the abandonment of the Baltic, so that we cannot even now send a submarine there nor is any attempt made to bring the British merchant ships out of the Baltic. They also point to the state of things on the Belgian coast where the enemy have organised certain ports for attacks on our ships. Then again there is the fact that German vessels are able to come over to our coast and lay mines, and apparently we are unable to retaliate Then they turn to the actual operations of the War. They see the "Goeben" not brought into action, and the allegation is made that a telegram was sent from the Admiralty that our armoured ships were not to be risked. The result is Turkey and Bulgaria are in the War. In the Falkland Islands it took all day for two vessels of "Dreadnought" strength to destroy two very inferior vessels because close action was not sought, the consequence being that the lives of the guns were almost exhausted and the munition supply as well They turn to the battle of Jutland, and they say that there the action after the big battleships had come up was fought at an inconclusive range, because of the conditions of light and the desire to keep out of torpedo range, and the result, although it was a victory, was not decisive. Then they find that in a recent speech Sir John Jellicoe said, at the Fishmongers' Hall, on 11th January:

I will give an example of the contrary principle—namely, the offensive spirit. There was an action only recently, some time after I had developed this very theory of the need of offensive strategy or tactics in an article in the Press which was not suppressed. Two of our destroyer leaders, the "Broke" and the "Swift," attacked six German destroyers near Dover. The two British vessels immediately closed with the enemy, animated by the true offensive spirit, and consequently the fight became two against two, and not two against six, as four of the enemy could not fire without injury to their friends. The result was a most brilliant victory for us, and the action was decided in five minutes. I think this is proof positive that the offensive spirit is the right one, and had those commanders not been animated by that spirit, and had they fought that action at long bowls the chances are that the enemy would have gained the advantage. It is all nonsense for any of the newspapers in this country or any hon. Member in this House to talk about an intrigue against the First Lord of the Admiralty because of criticism. I welcomed the appointment of the present First Lord, and I stated at the time that I thought he was the very best Member of either House who could have been appointed to that position, and I still hold that view. I do honestly believe, however, that he must take charge at the Admiralty, and the responsibility must rest with him. He must have the responsibility of selecting his advisers, for whenever mistakes have occurred in connection with the Navy they are nearly always the fault of the Admiralty, and not of the people afloat. If those mistakes lead to a wrong choice of men or the adoption of a wrong system the responsibility will be brought home to the First Lord and to the Government of the day. Of course, there are many points which cannot be discussed in public Session, and which I would like to bring forward in Secret Session.

I do not agree with the hon. Member for South Molton in saying that the system does not matter. In a later part of his speech he contradicted that argument, because he advocated a sort of Ministry of Munitions to the Admiralty to develop supplies. That is just our contention. We contend that the people who are conducting the War have had crowded upon them all sorts of details of supply, the appointment of officers, and many other details of administration which ought to have been done by others, and we want to have another system. Fifteen years after the last great naval war Sir James Graham altered the system, and put an end to the separate control over munitions and victualling which had always existed. The Navy Estimates were then only £4,500,000 a year, and for fifteen years of peace the number of men in the Navy had fluctuated from 19,000 to 30,000. It was obvious in those days, when the Treasury was pressing for economy, that from a peace point of view the best system seemed to be to unify all the Boards into one Board. Of course, the inevitable happened. The work of that administration became greater and greater, and the officers responsible for that administration became more and more absorbed in the details, and the tendency of the civilian staff was to crowd these details on to those conducting war. In this way the Navy has extended to 400,000 men, and I should imagine we are now spending on the Navy £500,000,000 or £600,000,000 a year—I am putting the amount at for all the naval services, including transport, and perhaps the Secretary to the Admiralty will tell me what it is. It certainly is a very large sum.

The tendency inevitably has been for those responsible for the conduct of war to have crowded on to them the details of administration demanding their instant attention, and consequently they are not able to give their time to the conduct of the War. That is what has happened, and the remedy which has been suggested is to take away from the men who conduct the War every one of these details connected with the appointment of all but senior officers and questions of supply, and I hope that course is one which will be announced to the House. The present Board has been in office five months, and it must be acknowledged that after that period we have failed to deal with the submarine menace. Unfortunately, owing to secrecy at the Admiralty, it is not possible to criticise this question adequately, but I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty to request the First Lord to give certain details of information. The question has been raised as to the age of officers in our patrol areas and bases. I think everybody can see that dealing with the submarine menace is a young man's game and yet some very elderly officers are employed. My right hon. Friend told us to-day, in answer to my question, that the six oldest retired admirals in charge of patrol areas and bases were between the ages of sixty-two and sixty-five, but unless there have been some changes within the last few days there is Admiral Goodridge, who is sixty-eight, and Admiral Finns, who is sixty-seven. I hope this question will be dealt with. In regard to the torpedoing of ships, I am not at all sure that the craft employed in hunting the submarines are in the areas where the submarines are operating. All these bases seem to me to be just like little kingdoms independent of each other and the only co-ordinating authority is the Admiralty. We want some system under which these vessels can be shifted rapidly from one area to another. If I were to ask questions as to how many vessels had been torpedoed to the south- west of Ireland and how many destroyers and torpedo craft were hunting there, and similar questions in regard to the North Sea and the British Channel, I think the answer would be a revelation to the House, and it would be seen that we have not got the vessels hunting in the right spots because we base our system upon the defensive instead of the offensive.

There is only one other point I wish to raise, and that is the question of inventions. I do not agree with the view that we have failed to cope with the submarine menace because we have not got some miraculous invention. If proper tactics are adopted I believe the Navy can cope with the submarine menace to-day and successfully scotch it if only young men, experienced in the game, are put on to do the work. Invention is very important. I know the Admiralty view is that you should guard with religious secrecy the whole details of our inventions, but I have always been an opponent of that. I have always been against secrecy except in regard to movements. It is wise jealously to guard by secrecy how submarines can hide, because that is what Germany wants to develop. I think we should make as public as the "Daily Mail" itself our inventions for hunting the submarine and this would bring the inventive talent of the world to bear on this problem, so as to carry us many stages forward. I would not keep any details secret, but I would publish them in America and to the world in order to show to inventive genii how far we have got in order that they may be able to carry us still further. I am sure we should get better results from a policy of publicity than we do from a policy of secrecy. I would remind the Secretary to the Admiralty that in the 'eighties of the last century we always resorted to publicity. We invited criticism of our ships. We sent the chief constructor of the Admiralty to the Royal United Service Institution, and we asked our naval officers to go and criticise as much as they liked, and what was the result? I defy anybody to point to any time since then when we have had a policy of secrecy where our ships have been so individually superior to all the ships of foreign nations as they were in the days of the "Royal Sovereign" glass. These ships were submitted to public criticism, and the result was that the Admiralty was reinforced by all the knowledge of the outside critics and experts of the day. There is only one other point I wish to make, and that is in regard to the casualties to ships the Admiralty are announcing. My hon. Friend the Member for West Toxteth (Mr. Houston), as well as the hon. Member for South Molton (Mr. G. Lambert), has pointed out that the statistics are very misleading.

The list of ships lost through submarines. They are misleading, I believe, in another particular. You publish the actual losses of ships, but I do not think you publish any ships that are towed in or ships that you believe you can salve. If we are to have the truth, let us have the whole story. If that is the case the position is worse. Of course, I have all the tonnage statistics, and I believe they are capable of being calculated by anybody who is expert in shipping questions, and they have been calculated for me by members of the Baltic Exchange. While I agree with my hon. Friend the representative of the Shipping Controller (Sir L. Chiozza Money), that with provision we shall tide over the crisis, still the position is very, very serious, and far more serious than it ought to be.

I will not detain the Committee for more than five minutes, but I do want to get a decisive statement from the Chancellor of the Exchequer before I assent to this enormous sum of money being voted. As with all these Votes of Credit, this one is very wide, and may cover something which may take the House by surprise at a future time. It covers the Naval and Army services, naval and military operations, assisting food supplies, promoting trade and industry, and so forth, and ends up with the statement Control Board did buy four breweries and some public-houses in July, and where they got the money I do not know. It was certainly not voted through this House. I think, therefore, I have a right, and the Committee have a right—whether the proposal is a sound or unsound one I am not at liberty to go into now, although I wish to do so—to know that no such sum as is adumbrated in the Press and semi-inspired pamphlets and so forth, and which is put at £200,000,000 or £300,000,000 for the purpose of buying up this trade, is to be taken from any of these Grants. I should like to go further if I could, and say this: We have seen paragraphs in the Press; we are told from day to day that the Cabinet are seriously considering this extraordinary and enormous proposal; and we do not know whether it is or is not being developed behind the back of this House. The House of Commons ought to be first consulted about any such expenditure of money as that which is hinted at. It is not, I submit, with all reverence to the Cabinet—[Laughter.]—yes, with all reverence, their duty to effect a thing like this, and then to come down and say, "We have done it, and you must now approve." This thing must be discussed for good or evil in this House; it must be originated by a Vote by itself, or mix it up with other things if you like, in Committee of Ways and Means; but it must not be brought to us as a fait accompli. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to give us an assurance on this subject?

On the general question, I would point out that we have had two and a half years of granting these Credits, and we have finished up with the biggest, I think, we have ever had. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is sitting opposite (Mr. M'Kenna) will confirm that. I should like to know whether the right hon. Gentleman and the Government could not see their way to give us some sort of statement as to what has become of all this money. Why should we not know how the money has been expended during the first twelve months, at all events? My hon. and gallant Friend opposite (Commander Bellairs) suggested as a random shot the sum of £600,000,000 for the Navy. The Financial Secretary to the Admiralty, (Dr. Macnamara) shook his head, so he, knows, and he could give us the figure. Why, therefore, cannot we get that figure? It is all very well if a war is going to last for six, nine, or twelve months, because, we may commit the House of Commons and be inclined to say, "Take what you absolutely want; we do not want any detail." But when it comes to year after year, for nearly three years, we ought to have some account covering, say, the first twelve or eighteen months of the expenditure of these spending Departments, the Army and Navy, and particularly the Ministry of Munitions, because what they have spent heaven only knows! How they have spent it is a mystery. We have taken it all on trust, and with a good grace, but the time has really seriously come when this House must assert its right to have some account given to it of all this enormous expenditure which has been going on. If it is necessary to have a Secret Session for that, by all means have a Secret Session, but I appeal to the Committee that really we are neglecting our duty if at some stage after two and a half years we do not put down our foot and say that we must have some statement of account up to some date of what the expenditure has been and how the money has been disposed of. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to give that his serious consideration, because as time goes on people are getting very restless and unhappy about it in view of the fact that the House of Commons seems entirely to have lost its controlling power. We never get proper estimates for anything except for one or two Departments which do not very much matter. After that appeal, I have nothing more to say, except that this is a very, very huge sum, and that it would be some sort of relief to the public if they thought that you were not going on and on and on to the end of the War without giving some account of the cost.

I desire to refer to the Air Service, and in particular to raise the question of the utter insufficiency of the publicity which is given by the military authorities to the very gallant and glorious work which is being done from day to day by our airmen on the Western Front. I put a question yesterday on the subject to the Under-Secretary for War (Mr. Macpherson), and in substance his answer was that when such actions are considered by the Commander-in-Chief to be worthy of reward short accounts are published, and it would be difficult to amplify these. The official reports which are published from day to day are very short indeed. They all more or less follow on the same lines. They are to the effect that, "There was considerable activity in the air"; next day it is varied, "Our aeroplanes were carrying out useful work"; and then they seem to have a third formula, "Yesterday there was much air fighting." Then there is a bald statement of the number of enemy machines brought down and the number of ours which are missing. That seems to be the limit of the descriptive capacity of those who are responsible for recording the doings of our wonderful airmen. I was very glad to hear the tribute which the Leader of the House (Mr. Bonar Law) paid to the extraordinary services which these men have rendered to the country. That brings me to this: Why should not we have a full report, so far as this can be obtained, of the aerial engagements which are taking place on the Western Front, and why should not the names of these very gallant men who are taking part in these engagements be published? From the scraps of news which are leaking out we know that the members of the Royal Flying Corps are the most extraordinary body of heroes this country has ever produced. There is no limit to their gallantry. We have no record, so far as I know, in the whole history of the world of greater acts of sacrifice and courage. If you go back to the days of chivalry, which have been so eloquently described by early writers and sung by poets, you cannot find any equal to the devotion to duty of our men of to-day.

8.0 P.M.

I have just a few reports of the unofficial accounts of their doings which have appeared from time to time in the Press. The French Armies have the most unbounded admiration for our men and have sent them a very eloquently worded expression of their opinion. Then the Commander-in-Chief at the Front did not hesitate to express himself in terms of the greatest praise of the squadron of naval airmen who were sent to assist. As regards the members of the Royal Flying Corps, however, I venture to think that very little has been said, till the words which I have already referred to and which were uttered to-day by the Leader of the House, of sufficient praise for the most extraordinary work they are doing. I should like, if it will not weary the House, to read very shortly a few extracts that have appeared in the Press. Here is an extract from the "Times": And then it proceeds to describe what he did. It is really an extraordinary performance. Why should we not have Flight Sub-lieutenant G.'s name published? Why should a mystery be made? When in that recent engagement in the Channel torpedo-boats went into action the names of the commanders were published. I venture to suggest that there is no military object in suppressing the names of the pilots of these airships who, as far as one can see, are accomplishing deeds which have never been done before in the history of the world. Then in the "Morning Post" there is a description—a most interesting description—and in describing it the correspondent says:

I have a strong feeling that our airmen are not being fairly dealt with. I urge that the names of all the officers and men who are doing so well for us should be immediately published, with a proper account of their action. We are told that, with becoming modesty, they object to their names being published. It was never a fair question to put to them. It is due to the country that the action of these men should be publicly acknowledged. It is due to their mothers, to their fathers, and to their relatives, and it is an incentive to others to do their best for the country. And their single-minded devotion to duty is an object-lesson to some of our working classes at home, who, by their senseless strikes, are indirectly aiding and abetting the enemy. The case was quoted yesterday by my hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel) of an airman who had brought down forty enemy machines, and his name had never been mentioned. There are other incidents which should appear. There is one which was reported quite recently in the "Times." I will read this in full if I may:

I feel sure the Committee will agree with every word my hon. Friend has said in praise of the extraordinary devotion, self-sacrifice, and bravery of our gallant airmen, who are fighting not only in France, but are doing duty within the confines of this country. He may take it from me that at the War Office we shall all gladly wish that any honour of any prominence shall be given to these gallant airmen, but I think it right that I should state to the Committee what the views of the members of the Royal Flying Corps themselves are. They feel that they are, and have always been, part and parcel of the great British Army, and they feel that no special mention or prominence should be given to any single individual among them who happens to be fighting and happens to have done well, which would not be given to any member of the Infantry or Artillery. They appreciate—and this is again a sign of their modesty and of their gallantry—more than anybody else the extraordinary gallantry of each individual in all the arms of the British Army, and I have it on the very best authority, indeed, from the General of the Royal Flying Corps himself, that the flying men feel that the men in the trenches have on many occasions to endure unhonoured and unsung the greatest hardships. They feel that it would be creating a distinction which they do not wish to see created if they, on any individual occasion, should be specially mentioned whilst those men are not. I think that I may assert this, that there is no branch of the Army which has attracted the attention and the imagination of the people of this country to the same extent as the Royal Flying Corps. Now, the reason for that is this, I think. It is a new corps. It is practically at the beginning of its existence, and yet it has developed in an enormous way, and it is the branch of the Service which has conquered what many people in our generation thought was quite unconquerable, namely, the air. That is one fact which greatly helps the popularity of the Service in the eyes and in the affections of the people of this country. But there is another view, and that is, these men are very popular with the other arms of the Service, and they feel that it would create an impossible situation if special prominence and special distinction were on all occasions given to any individual in their midst when he was merely performing his duty. These appear to me to be very great considerations, and if they are honestly put forward, as I believe they were put forward quite frankly by the men of the Flying Corps, they are considerations which ought to weigh not only with the Commander-in-Chief, but with the War Office authorities.

It is true, as I said to-day, that the best judge of whether an action is particularly commendable or not is the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief. The action which appeals most to the imagination may not be from a strategic point of view a most effective action, but the man who silently does his work with great fortitude, in the midst of very great danger, may not do anything that strikes the imagination, but from the point of view of the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief that man's work was as bold and brave and effective as the work of a man who happens to get a chance in daylight, in the air, to overcome an enemy aeroplane with which he is fighting. And so we feel that it ought to be left to the Commander-in-Chief to say when special mention should be made. I should like to point out that the moment when such a mention is made of the gallant deed of an individual airman there is no desire to keep it from the public, if an announcement can be made describing the performance for which he has been specially mentioned in dispatches. Now the case which was brought to my notice by the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel) was the case of a very gallant airman, Captain Ball. I have met Captain Ball. He would be the last person in the world to urge that this House should give him special preference over his gallant colleagues in the Air Service who have done very good work. Captain Ball, I think, has been responsible for over thirty machines. I remember when he came to see me, with my hon. Friend one of the Members for Nottingham, he was very modest. He was mentioned four times in dispatches, and I think he got the double bar to the D.S.O., and the Military Cross; and if I remember aright, the War Office raised no objection at all to the very proper civic reception which was given by the city of Nottingham.

The War Office contention is this, that the moment the officer's name is mentioned he could have limitless appreciation, both in public and in private, of the act for which he has been decorated. They take the view, and it is a reasonable one, of the officers themselves, that the names of the men who did the acts ought not to be made public. I agree with my hon. Friend that the information which appears in the Press after one of these brilliant combats in the air is meagre. It is not embellished—there is no effort of the imagination in trying to depict to the people of this country the fight that takes place. There is no attempt at embroidery; it is just a plain statement of fact; and I believe, as I suggested in the answer I gave this afternoon, that the reason is that the account of the fight is given by the men themselves, who have no desire to try and enlarge upon the act of duty that they have performed. When the airman comes in he reports that such-and-such a thing has happened, and I think no one would commend any man who, without seeing the combat, tried to write a description of it which had no real bearings on the facts. But I will promise my hon. Friend that I will see whether I cannot get a more full and accurate description of these fights. I agree with him when he says that there is no arm of the Service in which the people of this country are really so interested, and if it is at all possible I hope that we may in future be enabled to give fuller details after any of these contests or daring battles which we know are taking place with great honour to our men.

I was not altogether convinced by the explanation which the hon. Gentleman has given this afternoon. I had intended, in the course of my speech, to deal with one of the cases in which the censorship had acted in regard to a particular flying officer. This flying officer's name has been mentioned in the course of the Debate, and I only wish to draw attention to the fact that the paragraph which was to have been published in a leading London newspaper, drawing attention to his exploits, was refused publication by the Censor. There could be no military reasons for declining to publish the brave deeds of this man. It is true, as my hon. Friend said, that the officers themselves, through modesty, do not desire any details of what they are doing to be published, and that no preference should be given. I can quite understand that they do not desire any preference, but there is no reason why they should not be equally treated.

The argument of my hon. Friend this evening would go as far as this, to put an end to any decorations.

Oh, yes! His argument is that the Commander-in-Chief might take the view that there are many brave and gallant men who had done things which did not offer themselves to spectacular description, and he asked why should they not receive a decoration as well as the men doing the more spectacular things. If that is so, and if there is any validity in that, there is no argument in it.

We both come from the same part of the country, and we might be supposed to take the same view, but I can only infer that the difference in our logical processes on this occasion is due to our different positions in the House.

I intended this evening to raise the whole question of the censorship. On a previous occasion my hon. Friend the Member for East Mayo made a long speech on this point, and he dealt with many of the stupidities justly attributed to the Censor's office. On that occasion the Home Secretary, who replied for the Department, was quite unable to deal in any way with the suggestions or argument of the hon. Member. He said that he, as it were, was only the channel through which the Censor's Department acted; that he knew nothing of the reasons which accounted for a particular decision, and that he had nothing to do with the policy of the Censorship—that, in short, he was only a sort of conduit, and that, for reasons, he replied for the censorship in this House. Now, I gave the Leader of the House this morning notice that I intended to raise the question of the censorship generally, with specific reference to three of their most recent exploits, and I had hoped that some responsible member of the Government would be present to give a reply. The situation in regard to the censoring of news is now in a particularly objectionable position. We have been told, in relation to several recent acts of the Censor, that no political chief or responsible Minister was consulted. In other words, we have to infer that the whole question of the suppression of news and of opinion in this country now, under the new regime, rests with Departmental officials, and is unchecked by anybody who is responsible to this House. I think that is a situation to which the House of Commons should not submit. I am not going into details in all these cases. One has been already referred to this evening by the hon. Member for Maid-stone. An article was written by Mr. Pollen, a very distinguished naval expert, who, I think, has written on naval affairs every week continuously from the beginning of the War. He has contributed to many publications, and I think he has established with the public, generally, a reputation for sobriety and soundness of criticism to which few military or naval experts can lay claim. Well, one of his usual articles was sent to "Land and Water," last week, and the right to publish it was refused by the Admiralty. We do not know the precise grounds; we know that this was an article criticising the Admiralty administration. We know that that criticism was expressed in very strong terms. I think the article stated—I have not seen the article, but I am so told—that the situation in regard to the Admiralty had become so serious that it was now a question whether the Army would be able to win the War before the Navy lost it. That has been said in other periodicals. There is a good deal of justification for such a statement. Undoubtedly the inaction and negligence of those at present responsible for the Admiralty was subjected to very severe criticism. What is the situation? This article was submitted precisely to the people who were, criticised. They naturally decided that the criticism was unjustifiable, that it might cause alarm and disquiet in the country and possibily that it would give information to our enemies. Apparently these were the grounds on which publication was refused.

We require some more detailed defence than has yet been given. The country is not at all satisfied with regard to the record of the Admiralty in respect to publicity in the past. We all remember that the first great suppression of news on the part of the British Government during this War, a suppression of news which became well known not only in this country, but in America, in every neutral country and among our enemies, was due to the Admiralty Everybody is agreed that nothing could have been more stupid than the suppression of the loss of the "Audacious." That was the first occasion, and many others can be laid to their credit. A more recent example is present to my mind which I know of privately. Many months ago, before the danger of the submarine campaign was recognised by the Government, before it was appreciated by more than an insignificant minority of the people in this (House, my hon. Friend the Member for the West Toxteth Division (Mr. Houston) wrote an article for the "Weekly Dispatch." He then dealt with the existing situation, but he did not confine himself to that. He stated the facts as they then were, but he also indicated what was going to happen, and the forecast which he then made of the development of the campaign has been fulfilled almost to the letter. That was a warning to the country and a warning to the Government. The "Weekly Dispatch" is owned by a very powerful gentleman in this country, who frequently boasts that he will not hide the truth. He sent this article to the Admiralty. The Admiralty decided that it should not be published, and Lord Northcliffe took it lying down. That is not the end of the story. My hon. Friend, who was naturally deeply incensed at this suppression of what he considered to be an important contribution to a question of public interest, submitted the article to the Attorney-General, who, after all, has had some experience as a Censor himself, among his other accomplishments, and who was at that time the chief Law Officer of the Crown. After reading the article, he said that he believed that there was nothing in it which could not be published with complete safety. The ban, however, was maintained. After that experience, and in view of the present situation in regard to the Admiralty, this Committee should insist on a complete justification from him of the most recent case of suppression on their part of the article of Mr. Pollen. That is not the only case. I do not know whether any hon. Gentleman on the Front Bench is able to reply on behalf of the Censor of Cables. I put a question on Monday regarding an action on the part of that Censor, which I think beats the record in the matter of stupidity.

I quite agree. The facts are as follows: Mr. Norman Angell, who is well-known as a writer on international politics, received a cable on the 2nd March from the editor of the "New Republic," a very important journal in the United States, closely associated with President Wilson, which is recognised both there and here as more completely expressing President Wilson's views than probably any other publication. He received a cable from the editor of that periodical, saying: Could any gentleman have been better treated? It is a respectful request to the Censor.

In order to understand the situation, we should realise, first or all, what this article was, and I propose to put the main contention before the Committee. He sets forth very briefly the reasons for American participation, the reasons which he believes would appeal to pacifists in America, and his first point is that This is all very sound doctrine, but the stupid gentleman who is clothed with a little brief authority in the Censor's office said that because this was over the name of Mr. Norman Angell it was contrary to the Allied cause and, I suppose, unlikely to bring about American participation in the War if these arguments were used. As one reads this article one is almost driven to the conclusion that the Government which this gentleman serves does not want America to participate in the War. What other reason could there be for suppressing it? It is well, when considering this article, to realise exactly the position which Mr. Norman Angell has made for himself in America. He has been one of the people who have spoken in America during the War. We have sent a great many emissaries to America, some with success and others whose efforts have not been of particular value to anybody but themselves. To indicate exactly what was the position of Mr. Norman Angell, I wish to quote a passage from the "New Republic" of 16th September, 1916: has decided that nothing which he writes is to go to America? Had the Government really been anxious to do the worst they could, this is precisely the action which they would have taken. To indicate the importance of this article, I wish to quote from a letter from a very distinguished American writer, Mr. Walter Lippman, who has a great reputation in America as a writer upon politics. He wrote on the 1st March to Mr. Norman Angell regarding the proposed article: These quotations from the letters of the editor of the "New Republic" and from the distinguished American publicist I have mentioned prove the value which these gentlemen, in touch with American opinion at that time, when the issue was still hanging in the balance, attached to Mr. Norman Angell's articles, but apparently this cabled message to the "New Republic" was refused transmission by an official acting according to a silly rule that nothing written by this man was to go abroad, without reference to any responsible Minister and without any consideration of the great international issues which might be involved in this matter. I think that the House of Commons should insist on an explanation from the Government of this action, and I think they should apologise for this stupidity, and that this ban upon the writings of this distinguished writer should immediately be withdrawn. I understand that there are others affected in the same way. Could there be anything more stupid than a ban upon anything that any individual writes? That is the second case upon which we are entitled to an explanation.

I am going to refer once more to a case which I have dealt with on three previous occasions, and to which I am going to refer continuously until the ban upon the "Nation" is withdrawn. I think, if anything, it almost equals the stupidity of the action in regard to Mr. Norman Angell's article. We have had four defences from the Government. On the first night we had a defence from the Prime Minister and from the Leader of the House which were not quite consistent with each other. On the two succeeding occasions we had the Under-Secretary for War performing what was obviously to him a very uncongenial task. We know now that the case which was made for the ban upon the "Nation" has absolutely crumbled to pieces. What was it? It was that articles from the "Nation" on the 3rd and 10th March were quoted by the German wireless. I put a question on Monday as to what article in the issue of 10th March had been quoted, and the answer was that no article of the 10th March had been quoted, but that an article of the 3rd March had been attributed in the German wireless to the issue of the 10th March. That was how the Government were able to make up a case against two numbers of the "Nation." They took advantage of a mistake of the German wireless in wrongfully attributing an article in one number to another, and they used both numbers. That is a very fine piece of careful defence on the part of the Government. We know now that there was only a single sentence in the article of 3rd March to which exception could be taken, and exception could only be taken to that sentence by distorting its obvious meaning.

The Prime Minister, using a device with which we are all familiar, misinterpreted the meaning in a most glaring way, which was due to the necessities of his position. He knew that he had no defence, and when the Prime Minister has no defence he immediately misrepresents his opponent. We all know that, whether we are for him or against him. We know that he is a past-master in that art and does it in a most genial way. In fact, his geniality makes his misrepresentation attractive even to his victim. He suggested that this particular article was an attack upon the Army, whereas everybody knew that it was a criticism of the strategy of the generals, and if it is to be said that the generals are to be sacrosanct I think we will take up as mistaken a policy in regard to the Army as has been taken up in regard to the Navy since the beginning of the War. One of our greatest weaknesses since the beginning of the War has been that the Navy has been treated as sacrosanct, and now we are told that Headquarters in France are to be sacrosanct. Then we are told that Sir Douglas Haig had requested the suppression of the "Nation." We now know the facts, that a letter came from Headquarters which was not written by him or signed by him and as to which the War office has never yet been able to tell us whether he had cognisance of it. It called attention to that article. Then we were told that is not all. Why, there are dangerous men who write articles, not necessarily in the "Nation," but which have been found in the German Press, which have encouraged the Germans to carry on the War. We know that after about a week's search they were able to find an article by the hon. Member for Stirling Burghs (Mr. Ponsonby), which had been taken from the "New York Times," which was the sole justification of the statement, though it must have been perfectly well known to the Prime Minister that the hon. Member for Stirling Burghs was not a director of the "Nation" nor had he been connected with the directorate of the "Nation." That was the case which was put forward by the Government. The obvious conclusion to be drawn from all this is that the motive for the suppression of the "Nation" which was alleged in this House was not really the real motive and that they were putting up a totally fictitious case. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary need not shake his head. He told us that the official in the War Office who applied the last touch, as it were, who gave the administrative decision, had never read the "Nation." He only read the "Morning Post."

I said nothing of the kind I said I did not know whether he had read the "Nation."

9.0 P.M.

Apart from the reference to the "Morning Post," I am quoting exactly. He had never heard from the "Nation." My hon. Friend said that he did not think that the distinguished officer who has done this has ever heard of the "Nation," or its editor. The fact that he had not heard of the "Nation" or its editor was an absolute disqualification for him to exercise the functions which he was performing, because if a man had not heard of that paper and did not know of its influence and authority in this country and abroad he was quite incapable of taking a decision of this character. But we know that that was not the real motive force in this matter. We know that it came from a body, a hidden hand kind of body, called the Foreign Propaganda Department of the office presided over by Lieutenant-Colonel Buchan, who has written a very partisan history of the War, and has the distinction of being a Unionist candidate for Parliament. There is this further interesting item, that this new Foreign Propaganda Department of the Foreign Office has come into existence since the present Government came into power. There was an old propaganda department associated with the names of Mr. Charles Masterman and the right hon. Baronet the Member for Gravesend (Sir Gilbert Parker). They were not good enough for the new do-it-now Government that wanted to conceal nothing. That Department is undoubtedly intimately associated with the Prime Minister. We know, also, that two days after the article appeared a letter was written to the "Times," which it has been asserted, and asserted with some authority, emanated from this Foreign Propaganda Department of the Foreign Office, which takes a hand in propaganda in the "Times" as well as in foreign propaganda. This letter was a general denunciation of the "Nation" and of its views. The next point was that the article was next quoted in the "Nieuwe Rotterdamsche Courant," a paper not published in Germany at all, but a paper in close touch with the British Government. Then it got into the German Wireless on 27th March, more than three weeks after its publication. I am quoting the official defence. If there is any new defence to-night, I am quite willing to listen to it.

The only date given by the War Office was the date given by Lord Derby, that of the German wireless of the 27th March. The case made by the Prime Minister to this House was the quotation by the German wireless which contained that particular offending sentence. We are told by Lord Derby in the House of Lords that he very much objected to this article and to the general tendency of the "Nation." But they waited to see if the German wireless quoted it, and then when they quoted it on the 27th March they said, "We have got the 'Nation.'" We know that this was not the real reason, because the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House said only yesterday that the fact that the paper was quoted in Germany was no reason for the suppression of its foreign circulation. My hon. Friend the Member for the Brightside Division of Sheffield (Sir Tudor Walters) put a question regarding the article in the "Times," which Lord Curzon in his speech yesterday stated had been circulated to the extent of a million copies in Germany. He said that that statement was made on the authority of a British Minister in a neutral country. That was sound enough authority for his statement, but the "Times" was not suppressed. When he came to a question of the "Times" the Leader of the House said that the fact that it was used to encourage the enemy was no reason for the suppression of its foreign circulation. That was never the reason alleged by the Prime Minister. The only real reason is that you will encourage the Germans to fight against us. The article in the "Times" was calculated to make the Germans believe that in a few months it might find that this country was face to face with a serious shortage of food, which might almost mean starvation. That does far more to encourage the civil population in Germany than anything which appeared in the "Nation," and the effect of anything quoted in Germany from the "Nation" was no reason for the suppression of the foreign circulation of that paper. The "Morning Post" has been quoted by Admiral von Capelle in the German Reichstag, in an article which contained these words:

"The British sea power as it has been known in the past has gone."

That was as serious a statement as could be made by any paper. We all know that our sea power is the basis of the British Empire, and not only that but it is the basis of the Allies at the present time, and a statement of that kind is tantamount to the admission of the failure of the Allies against Germany. That appeared in the "Morning Post." But that was not a reason for the suppression of the foreign circulation of the "Nation." What is the inference to be drawn? It is not because the paper is quoted abroad. I believe, as a matter of fact, that if you make a survey of the "Nation" for the last six months you will find that it has been far more seldom quoted in Germany than almost any other leading paper in this country, and when the "Nation" is quoted in Germany it is quoted by the Moderate and Radical papers. And why is it quoted there? It is quoted to prove to the German people that the British are not such fire eaters as they would have them believe. After all, there are people in Germany who take a sane view of the situation, and who hope that it will be possible ultimately to make peace with Great Britain. The "Nation" is quoted by people who are against all this ruthless submarine warfare—people who are anti-annexationists in Germany, and whose views are against Germany adopting all these measures of frightfulness. Only one conclusion emerges from this case and from the case of Mr. Norman Angell, and that is that a ban is placed by the present Government on one particular type of opinion, and that is Liberal and only Liberal. I am not surprised that the Prime Minister should endeavour to suppress Liberal opinion, for the obvious reason that he has ceased to be a Liberal.

My hon. Friend is arguing that the "Nation" has been sup- pressed on the ground of its Liberalism. May I ask him whether any Liberal speaker in the Debate, except himself, has said that the "Nation" was suppressed because of its Liberal views?

The particular aspect of this question dealt with by every speaker was the military criticism contained in the article, and Liberal speakers did not disagree with its Liberal principles. My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Commander Wedgwood), with whom I have often disagreed in the course of this War, said it was only because it was a Liberal paper that it was suppressed; and another hon. Member who knew about Russian opinion spoke of the very serious effect of this action so far as Russia is concerned. We know the calamities of Russia, yet here was one great antidote of the poison of the "Times" kept from going to Russia. Nothing is more surprising to me than that my hon. Friend should get up and defend this action, though it is absolutely unnecessary for him to take such a partisan point of view. I have always said that it was an uncongenial thing for him, to defend this action, but from his demeanour, and from these interruptions, I am rather led to believe that he is following the path of the Prime Minister, and turning his back on the Liberal party. I hope it is not so. After all, if there is one thing which Liberalism in the past has stood for, it has been freedom of opinion. There was no greater champion of freedom of opinion during the War than the Prime Minister. He did not worry about encouraging the Boers. We had it from Lord Middleton in the other House, in the course of the "Nation" Debate, how much the present Prime Minister encouraged the Boers in those days, and it is very strange that one of the few defenders of the Government on this occasion should be a gentleman with the record of Lord Middleton—a very proper defender. I am very sorry that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary for War should desire to put himself in such unfortunate company. I return to the point with which I began, that this is a ban on a particular type of opinion. We are now to understand that we are under a reactionary Government in this matter—a Government which only wants reactionary opinion to be published, and will only allow reactionary opinion to be exported. Reaction in the "Morning Post" may go where it may, but Liberal opinion must be suppressed. There is an example of this kind of reaction which appears in an article in the current number of "Black-wood's Magazine," entitled "Musings without Method." The writer enters upon a general denunciation of democracy, and points out the folly and futility of the Russian revolutionary movement, and nobody but a fool would shed his blood for it. Democracy, what was it? It was a sink of corruption. No sane man would ever take such a course. That is the kind of opinion that is allowed to be exported. There is no ban put upon that. The writer goes on to denounce the Russian Government and the Russian revolutionary, and also to denounce President Wilson as an inept and futile dreamer when he talks of such things as the "League of Nations." The Liberal view that tends to help us in America is banned, and does not that clearly prove that we are under a reactionary Government, and that there is a desire that we should stand out before the world as a reactionary Government? That is the kind of Government we have, and it is because it is that kind of Government we have that we have this inept, malignant, and futile course indulged in.

Before I deal with the last part of my hon. Friend's speech, which concerns my Department, I should like to make a few comments on matters which arose earlier in the Debate. I would like to correct the impression which may have been created by statements made here to-day earlier, and which certainly must have been created by writings and statements outside, that the Admiralty only wakened up to the existence of the submarine since 1st February, 1917. I will content myself by replying to that contention by two short quotations. My right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee (Mr. Churchill), in replying to the First Lord of the Admiralty on the introduction of the Estimates on the 21st February of this year, said this:

"Many of the methods which are adopted to combat the enemy submarine, it is. of course, impossible to speak of. Some are of very early date, and some have been developed in the time of the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor, for many very valuable lines of inquiry were patiently pursued in his tenure of office.'

The only other quotation which I will make is a quotation from the speech of the Prime Minister at the Guildhall on the 27th of April.

"Judging by some criticisms which I have read although I have very little time for reading, you might have imagined that submarines were something that appeared in the sea for the first time when Sir Edward Carson became First Lord of the Admiralty. I can assure my critical friends that it has been a problem which has worried us for two and a half years at least."

I thought it only fair to give those two statements in reply to the inferences, if not direct suggestions, that the Admiralty had only just wakened to the existence of the German submarines. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Maidstone (Commander Bellairs) pressed his view as to the age of officers in charge of submarine hunting and patrol work round the East Coast. His view is that it would be quite as well if there were more younger men engaged on that work. I put that view before the First Lord, and I will put it again. I will look into his suggestion as to ages appearing to be incorrect. I need not tell him that they were; they were unintentionally incorrect. My hon. and gallant Friend thinks there is not close enough co-ordination and co-operation between the patrol commands. That, again, is a thing very well worth looking into. I do not know whether his. criticism is justified, but at any rate it is a matter which I will certainly put to the First Lord. Now I come to the speech of my hon. Friend (Mr. Pringle) and to the case of the censoring of the article by Mr. Pollen. My hon. Friend's speech was pretty severe in its strictures on Admiralty methods and motives. Let me state the case quite shortly and with perfect frankness. The Chief Censor at the Admiralty is an officer, a member of the Admiralty Staff, appointed by the Admiralty to collect and express the naval views on matters concerning the publication of which the Press Bureau may be in doubt. In pursuance of this a proof of this article was referred to the Chief Censor at the Admiralty by the Press Bureau. He took the view that in the public interest it ought not to be published, and he so advised. In his judgment, it violated Regulation 27 of the Defence of the Realm Regulations, and he sent it back to the Press Bureau with that judgment.

There are certain points in that Regulation, such as causing disaffection, encouraging the enemy, and another, and which of those three points was it?

I will read it. It is as follows:

"No person shall, by word of mouth, or in writing, or in any newspaper, periodical, book, circular, or other printed publication… .

(c) Spread reports or make statements intended or likely to prejudice the recruiting, training, discipline, or administration of any of His Majesty's Forces, or the discipline of any police force."

He sent it back to the Press Bureau, who acted on his view, and the proprietors of the newspaper were so advised. My right hon. Friend the First Lord subsequently went into the matter with great care and, as I stated in reply to a question from my hon. and gallant Friend on the 7th May:

I think my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Maidstone said that we were "intolerant of criticism." If so, if we are, it is solely from a sense of public duty to the State which the Minister of the Crown shares with every private Member of the House. It is not because we seek to cover any personality or to shield Departmental inefficiency or administrative incapacity. That is the ground. It is solely from a sense of public duty. In order that there may be no mistake about it, because it is quite clear that certainly two of my hon. Friends are of opinion that the Admiralty objects to criticism of its administration, I deny that strongly. In order that there may be no misunderstanding, let me say, on behalf of the First Lord and the other civil members of the Board, that criticism of Admiralty administration, directed against the Minister of the Crown who is responsible for the time being, is the last thing that we should complain of. It very often does us good. In any case we are here to reply to it. Frequently an answer goes by default because we have got our other proper duty to attend to. Neverthe- less, we must draw a sharp distinction in this matter, and I deny any suggestion that we use the censorship because we do not want to be criticised.

Do I understand that the Admiralty would object to an article which does not show that an officer holding a high naval command is professionally incompetent?

My hon. Friend heard what I said, that the only objection we should take to criticism would be based on a sense of public duty. I noticed that that observation was a source of considerable merriment to my hon. Friend.

Well, leave it at that! This particular article was not in any way, as has been set forth by those who referred to the substance of it, one the purpose of which was not to attack the civil authorities. The chief Censor came to the conclusion deliberately that its publication would be calculated to prejudice discipline, and the First Lord fully and completely concurred, and gave his view—which I have already stated to the House—considering that it would certainly be not less calculated to encourage the enemy. That its author, like all of us, was patriotically minded, I have no doubt. That the last thing he desired to do was to encourage the enemy, I have no doubt. Writers and speakers—and perhaps, with great respect, I might say by all of us inside this House or out of it—may be reminded that with the very best intentions in the world, and in a most innocent and inadvertent manner, we may do our cause real injustice and real harm, and substantially enhance the morale of the enemy.

My hon. Friend the Member for North-West Lanark renders very useful service to the House by pertinaciously and persistently bringing before our notice these questions which have recently arisen in connection with the censorship. The Government in a time of war has no more delicate and difficult duty to perform than in deciding in what cases matter, which is intended to be published, should be prevented from publication by the exercise of the power of the Executive. We have to remember that every word that is publicly spoken or printed in time of war is really heard by two audiences, the audience at home of our own people and the audience abroad—that is, the enemy. A censorship, therefore, in time of war is quite indispensable. The whole of this country is really a base for the Army and for the Fleet, and things are generally known here which the enemy would give very much to ascertain. It is one of the prime duties of a belligerent Government to suppress espionage within its own borders, and to permit free publication in time of war, no matter how good the intentions might be of those who speak or who print, might in its effect not be very much different from a tolerated espionage. It is essential that anything which can give the enemy military or naval information of value to him should be drastically suppressed. Where, however, it is a question of such information, my own view is that the military and naval authorities themselves are the best judges, and that civilians cannot really tell what is the kind of military or naval information that is likely to be useful to the enemy. When you come to questions not of military or naval information, but of opinion or comment, then you come into a somewhat different sphere. The matter ought to be handled in each case with the most extreme care, and in my view, the final voice ought always to be with a civilian department. Although some very able men are employed at the War Office in this work, the military mind is rather too prone to see the immediate advantage of repression without sufficiently appreciating the indirect and intangible harm which is done by limiting too strictly the freedom of speech and publication.

I go further, and say not only should the civilian department have the last voice, but in difficult or doubtful cases it ought to be the Minister himself at the head of the civilian department whose decision ought to be invoked. Of course, cases submitted to the censorship are so very numerous, amounting to scores, and even hundreds per day, and a vast majority of them are so obviously on the one side or the other—usually on the side of permitting publication—that it would be impossible, and, indeed, absurd, to suggest that any individual Minister could himself give attention to each case. Where the cases are doubtful or difficult, then the direct opinion of the Minister ought, I think, to be invoked. I had the burden for a year of being responsible to Parliament for the administration of the Press Bureau. While I was at the Home Office cases were referred to me with the utmost frequency. Never a week passed but many cases were sent to me by the Press Bureau for final decision, after consulting with my advisers at the Home Office. Frequently, late at night, boxes were sent to my house to have decisions on these points. So seriously did I regard this duty, and its difficulty, that in several cases I sent the papers forward to the Prime Minister himself in order to get his concurrence before the final decision.

With regard to the three cases mentioned this evening by the hon. Member for North-West Lanark, I do not feel qualified to speak in regard to the article by Mr. Pollen which it was proposed to publish in "Land and Water." That was stopped by the naval authorities. I have not read the article, and even if I had read it, if it were stopped on purely naval grounds, on grounds that it was injurious to Admiralty interests as such, I doubt whether I should venture to assume the qualifications of expressing an opinion. I think that in a matter of this sort—for it is purely a naval point—the Admiralty are perhaps the best authorities. The other two cases, however, stand on a different footing. Mr. Norman Angell, from whose views as a rule I entirely dissent, or at least in many particulars, as most of us know, is a very distinguished publicist. He was invited by the "New Republic," which is one of the leading and most influential papers of the United States, to send an article by cable for the purpose of influencing pacifist opinion in America, and to support the entry of America into the War on the side of the Allies. I think no one can deny that pacifist opinion in America during the War has been a very important element in the decision of American policy. It carries, and no doubt properly carries, great weight with the American Government. It is equally obvious that anything that could be done from any quarter that could usefully be done to assist to bring pacifist opinion into line when the American Government was about to take this momentous step of entering the War on the side of our Allies and ourselves, ought to be done and would be a useful thing to do.

Who is most likely to be able to influence pacifist opinion in America? Not violent and vehement partisans of war at any time and for any purpose and to be carried to any extreme, but obviously a man who himself has advocated pacifist opinions. Set a pacifist to catch a pacifist. If we wanted by our own methods of propaganda to influence pacifist opinion in America, I should have thought that Mr. Norman Angell, if his views allowed him to do so, would be the very man whose assistance we ought to enlist, and that was the view of the "New Republic." Mr. Norman Angell consequently wrote his article, evidently calculated in his view to secure as full a measure as possible of unanimity in America in the interests of the Allies. At the same time, when sending his article to the cable office, from where, of course, it was referred to the Press Bureau, he, as my hon. Friend told the Committee, inserted a note to say that if any alterations were thought necessary by the Censor, he would be glad if he could have the article returned to him, so that he might make them fit in to the general context. The Censor, however, not merely paid no attention to this, but never informed Mr. Norman Angell that his article was suppressed, and he only heard from America some weeks later that it had never been received. Now it does appear to me that a very grave error was made in this case. If there were some passages in this article which were judged to be deleterious, with a man so well-known as Mr. Norman Angell, what would have been easier than to ask him to come to the Press Bureau or to the Propaganda Department of the Foreign Office, point out to him the particulars which it was thought would be disadvantageous, and to ask him to modify those particulars, and I have no doubt it would have been quickly done. But that was not the course adopted, and, for my own part, I feel convinced that far more harm has been done in America by the suppression of this article than would have been done in Germany by its publication.

The third case is that of the "Nation," with respect to which I have already ventured to express my opinion in the House when the matter was fully debated on the Motion for the Adjournment, and when the opinion, I think, of the House was very fully expressed. Every hon. Member who took part in the Debate condemned the action that was taken in that case, except the spokesman of the Government itself, and outside the House almost every organ of the Press, no matter what its political views might be, or its views with regard to the course of the War, expressed the same view. I do not propose to say again what I said then, but I cannot refrain from reminding the Committee that in two particulars the handling of this case by the Government has been most unhappy. In the first place, the House was told in the previous Debate that one of the reasons why the foreign circulation of the "Nation" was wholly stopped was that Sir Douglas Haig had asked that this should be done. Even if Sir Douglas Haig had asked for it, I would venture to suggest that it is most inexpedient to bring the name of the General in supreme command in the field into Parliamentary controversies of this character; but it turns out now that Sir Douglas Haig never asked for anything of the kind, that a letter was written not by him, but by someone at the Headquarters in France, drawing attention to the "Nation" articles, and that the suppression had not been asked for. The second particular in which the matter has been unhappily handled was the argument addressed to the House by the Prime Minister when the Motion for the Adjournment was before it, that the foreign circulation of the "Nation" was rightly suppressed because articles had been picked up in the German trenches which had been written by directors of the "Nation," and which were calculated to encourage the enemy. It turns out now that one article, reprinted from an American paper, had been picked up in the trenches which was written by a gentleman who had no connection with the "Nation" whatever, and why this fact should be advanced to this House as a reason to influence its opinion in favour of the course taken by the Government, all of us are, I think, wholly at a loss to imagine.

It has been mentioned lately by a Minister that an article in the "Times," drawing a very gloomy picture of the condition of our food supplies, has been translated into German and reprinted, and that a million copies were being circulated by the German Government with a view to encourage public opinion in that country. The foreign circulation of the "Times" has not been stopped, and I think quite rightly. I do not suggest for a moment that it ought to be stopped on that ground. I think the Government would have made a profound error if they had taken such a course, but I do say that every argument which would lead us to the conclusion that the foreign circulation of the "Times" ought not to be stopped ought also to have deterred the Government from stopping the foreign circulation of the "Nation" on account of the article which was quoted as a defence of that action. I would venture respectfully to suggest to the Government that in these matters there are three conditions that ought to be fulfilled. The first is that where it is a question of specific naval and military information the censorship should be drastic and the suppression should be complete, but that in all other cases the censorship should be most sparingly and cautiously used; secondly, that in all such cases the last word should invariably rest with the civilian Department and not with the military Department of State; and, thirdly, that in all important and doubtful cases the direct decision should be obtained from the Minister of State responsible to Parliament.

I think I have listened to all the speeches of Ministers on these Votes since the War began, and I must say I never listened to one which, in my opinion, was more unsatisfying than that by the Leader of the House to-night. Without going into it in any detail, I say that his explanation for proposing so large a Vote of Credit appeared to me to be wholly unsatisfactory. The only reason which seemed to be given was that if he did not take £500,000,000 it would be necessary to ask for another Vote of Credit before the House rose, and to have a second Appropriation Bill. I think it is extremely desirable that before the end of this Session he should have to ask for another Vote of Credit, and have a second Appropriation Bill. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman's reason for asking for £500,000,000 has any justification whatever. He went on to give us a survey of the state of the War on the various fronts. In the course of the speeches delivered by the Leaders of the House during the last two and a half years in proposing Votes of Credit two different courses have been taken. Sometimes the Leader of the House or the late Prime Minister simply dealt with financial matters, and said nothing about the progress of the War. I think there is something to be said for that course, and it was frequently adopted. But on other occasions we were given a survey of the state of the War, and an impartial and comprehensive survey on all its fronts. What was the course adopted by the Leader of the House? The reason I draw attention to this matter is that it partakes of the old spirit of the censorship as pointed out by the hon. Member for North-West Lanark (Mr. Pringle). The right hon. Gentleman gave us a discourse on the war in Mesopotamia and on the Western Front, in reference to both of which he was able to give a fairly satisfactory account. The war in Mesopotamia has taken a favourable turn, and the only brilliant action we can boast of in the whole of the War is the capture of Bagdad and Villayet of Bagdad. I rejoice that things took a favourable turn in Mesopotamia when you put an Irishman in charge of the Army. While we all rejoice in that success, I think something ought to be said for General Townshend, who would have done quite as great military deeds if he had had the slightest chance, or had been supported by a proper organisation from the War Department; but he was asked to undertake an impossible task.

The right hon. Gentleman then turned to the Western Front, and he put the best face he could on the operations there. The only fault I have to find is that in reference to two other fronts about which the country is far more anxious to get some information, because as regards the Western Front and Mesopotamia we have had ample details of those events as they occur, and we have had the fullest details throughout the War. Therefore the speech of the right hon. Gentleman added no single item of information to what was in the mind of anyone who has read the daily Press. The two fronts about which we know nothing are Syria and Salonika, and we have not had a single item of information about them, and the country is anxious because we have been left in the dark. With regard to the front in Syria, hon. Members will recollect what took place about a month ago. The Leader of the Opposition put a question to the Leader of the House as to whether he could give any information as regards the Army in Syria, and the Leader of the House read out a telegram giving an account of the operations there which was loudly cheered and announcing a great victory at Gaza. The House was very enthusiastic about it, but suddenly, like a fire curtain in a theatre, a dark cloud came over that victory and we have never heard anything more about Gaza since. The hon. Member for Kirkcaldy said we had taken Gaza but we have not, and all we know is that very ugly rumours are afloat, and I think the right hon. Gentleman ought to tell the whole truth, and when entering upon a survey he ought not to palm off on to the House an abbreviated boiling down of Press telegrams giving us no information whatever as to these places about which the public are really anxious. What has happened at Gaza since the great victory which we all cheered in the House? I do not know what has happened, but there are very ugly rumours about and the general who won that victory is said to be coming home for the benefit of his health.

With regard to Salonika, I say it is impossible for the Government to maintain any longer the attitude they have adopted, because that is impossible in face of the public necessity. The situation in Greece has been going from bad to worse and the Government in pursuance of the fatal policy which has marked their whole conduct of the censorship, have authorised certain telegrams through Reuter's agency, which now appears to have become a sub-department of the Foreign Office, to allow certain things to leak out about Greece which are wholly false as far as my information goes. An attempt was made to quiet the public by saying that things were improving in Greece, and that the King was now supposed to be friendly. My information is the very opposite. I am told that the situation in Greece is worse than ever, and that the Salonika Expedition is now in a condition which is wholly indefensible. I do not know why the Government are unwilling to make any public statement, but I think the public are entitled to this information. It is no answer to say that tomorrow in Secret Session the truth about Salonika will be told. What information will the public get, because we shall be bound to silence and we cannot tell our constituents? What is the situation in Salonika to-day? The Government make no attempt to contradict the statements which have been made. The condition in which our Army in Salonika is new situated is a pest. The fever season has commenced, the mosquitoes are on the wing, and 60,000 of our men were down with a poisonous form of malaria last year with the result that a large fleet of transports had to be employed carrying sick from Salonika. Is that going to be repeated this year without any object? I say that we are entitled to ask whether these things are true or not. I am told that the one cry of our men when they are ordered to the front is, "Anywhere but Salonika." British soldiers and airmen and sailors will go anywhere if they are allowed to light, but to put your men into a swamp to wait until they are struck down by sickness is more than human flesh and blood can bear.

Then your men ask themselves this question, "Why are we kept in Salonika when the whole of this fertile country is inhabited by a population which M. Venizelos assures us are our friends, but who by our own action are kept under the heel of the King of Greece, whom they detest, and are not allowed to come round to M. Venizelos and the Provisional Government? We are kept in a fog of mystery as to why it is done." Why is the port of Volo, which I am told is one of the best natural harbours in that part of the country, not used? Why is the Alexandria Railway kept unused? Why is the King of Greece, with his German Ministers, allowed, as he is now doing, to organise bands of komitadjis to attack our troops in the rear, and in spite of the protests of General Sarrail, who, to my own knowledge, has sent protest after protest to his Government that the whole of this pretence of the Greek Government to send their arms and soldiers in Corinthia is pure dust in our eyes, and that the King of Greece is deliberately at this moment organising and officering the komitadji bands who are attacking the French? Can the Government deny that General Sarrail has been obliged to fight, and kill, and shoot more than one band of these Irregulars who are threatening his communications? The whole of this fertile country inhabited by friends is open to us, and we have proclaimed it and shut it up under the King of Greece and drawn a neutral zone beyond which M. Venizelos is not allowed to extend his influence in any way. I do not know whether hon. Members ever see that very remarkable publication, "New Europe." If they do, they will have read in that publication an interview with M. Venizelos published four weeks ago, in which he made the most bitter complaint that he, being a friend of the Allied Governments, and having risked his whole life and his whole political position to serve you, was refused permission to rally his friends and extend his Government and control—although he is doing it to back up the Allies, and although his followers—these are his own words—in Athens and Thessaly were at the mercy of bitter enemies, some had been murdered, and some had been hunted down and ill-treated in every way—simply at the order of the Allies. Mystery of the darkest kind has hung over this matter for the past year. No one can tell who is maintaining this German Court party. If we ask the question the Government say it is a matter concerned with our Allies; but a friend of mine the other day gave me a bundle of extracts from the "Temps" and other leading newspapers of Paris, in which this paper declared that something must be done to support M. Venizelos—and the "Temps" speaks for the French Foreign Office, as everybody knows—and when they plainly intimated that it was the British Government—and this is a very serious state of things—that is standing behind the King of Greece and preventing the French Government acting.

The "Temps." I will send the right hon. Gentleman, if he likes, the extracts. They plainly intimated that it was the British Government. Some time ago we were told it was the Tzar, but the Tzar has gone, and no one can say that Russia is behind the King of Greece. That is the state of things which I think the Government are bound to clear up. I myself have always held here that after what has occurred and the pledges we have given to the Serbians—who, by the way, are very nearly starving, because, according to my information, of the Serbian nation, who mobilised 320,000 when they proposed to march on Sofia before the Bulgarians were mobilised and who were stopped by a telegram from our Foreign Office, who guaranteed to the Serbian nation that the Bulgarians would never attack them, and ordered them not to pass the Bulgarian frontier, although within a fortnight the Bulgarians mobilised and marched into Serbia and the Austrians attacked them from the other side—of those 320,000 men 80,000 survived in the retreat into Albania. These were taken to Corfu, there fed up and uniformed by our Government, were brought to Salonika, and of them there are 40,000 left, because we put them in the foremost lines. They captured Monastir and attacked the hills around Monastir, and only 40,000 of them are left. If something is not done soon the Serbian race will be wiped completely out, as every one of our Allies among the small nations have been who have supported our cause. I have always held that in view of the obligations we contracted towards the Serbians, M. Venizelos, and the Greeks who are our friends, it is impossible for us to leave Salonika. But if we do not intend to do anything but allow our troops to die of fever in the swamps of Salonika, I want to know what is keeping us. What is the object of staying there? The time has come when the Government have to make up their minds one way or the other, either to go out of it or to have a policy; and that policy can only be one policy, and that is to say to the King of Greece and his Government, "Are you friends or are you foes"; to take Thessaly and make it a proper and healthy base, and take the Greek people who are ready to join with M. Venizelos—and I believe, in spite of the base and contemptible attitude we have practised towards the majority of the Greek people, that if we give them the chance they will rally to M. Venizelos—and allow them to march against the Bulgarians, not against the mass of mountains which we have been assailing from the swamps of Salonika disastrously since last year in little demonstrations, but to go through Thessaly and Monastir by the same routes by which the Austrians and Bulgarians came down to attack us; and to send what reinforcements are necessary, as they can be sent now through Italy, and with only ten hours across the Straits from Southern Italy into Epirus, where roads have been constructed by the Italians, and where supplies of troops are at hand. That would be a policy, and could undoubtedly, so far as one can gather—I do not pretend to be a military man, but I speak of those who know the country—be carried out. In order to do it, however, it should be done in sufficient force, and undoubtedly this situation in Greece should be put an end to one way or the other. If you do not intend to do that, take your troops out of Greece and tell the Greek people they are deserted, and the Serbians they are deserted. You have already made as great a mess of the Balkans as you have of Ireland, and God knows you cannot say anything more than that.

There are two or three other points with regard to the censorship on which I desire to say a word. First of all, there is one aspect which has not been touched on by the hon. Member for North-West Lanarkshire (Mr. Pringle), who, I think, deserves the thanks of every liberal-minded man in the House for his persistence in raising this matter. That is the American aspect. You have poisoned America—and I am speaking of what I know of the last two years—by your treatment of the American Press correspondents in this country. Of all the blunders of pigheadedness committed by any Government, that connected with the attitude of the Propaganda Department of this Government towards the American Press has been one of the worst. Whereas the Germans have exhibited extraordinary astuteness and ability in dealing with the American Press—it is a mercy of Providence how you did not destroy all chance of America joining the Allies by your treatment of the American Press during the last two years—you did everything that stupidity could do to turn away America, and when the whole history of the War comes to be told it will be seen that Lord Grey, the late Foreign Secretary, and the late Government probably laid this country under a deep obligation by preserving the friendship of America under circumstances of very great difficulty. I am one of the Members of the House who remember the attitude of the old Tory party when Lord Grey was criticised. Now, no word of contumely and insult and abuse of Lord Grey is too strong, but I do say one thing, that this country owes a debt of gratitude to him which will not be understood until the secret history of this War comes to be written. But the treatment of America in this War, with regard to the Press campaign, might have thrown America into an enemy if it had not been for President Wilson. The Press censorship as regards America has been stupid beyond words, and I trust that the Government in future will mend their way in that respect. The right hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) in his speech alluded to the Commission and spoke of its splendid success. The Commission to America has been to a certain extent a success, but do not run away with the idea that you have completely captured America. America has come into this War free of all ties and obligations, and you have very much misunderstood America, and above all you misunderstand President Wilson if you imagine that he, like some gentlemen in this country, is going to turn head over heels. He has not the slightest idea of it. I have lived in America for some years, and I think I know something of American feeling. I have watched very closely the whole course of President Wilson's policy throughout this War. He was made the subject of insult and ridicule in this country during the first two years of the War. I came to the conclusion, and it has been confirmed by what has occurred since, that President Wilson is one of the greatest statesmen now living in this world. He has a policy, he has principles that he believes in, and if I am not greatly mistaken he has principles that he means to stand by. He is the one man living in the world who could have brought America into this War. Let me tell you this, there never has been, in my judgment, in the whole history of the world, a more astounding feat and accomplishment than bringing America into this War. America was against this War for reasons which I have explained, and if you had asked any average American a year ago he would have said that no human being could bring America into the War. President Wilson has brought her into the War by his great character and by the fact that he has convinced his people that he loves peace and was willing to make enormous sacrifices for peace, and if he had not done so no power on earth could have brought her into the War. But he brought her into the War because he was convinced that he was right. Things had come to such a pass that either Germany had to be defeated in her design or human liberty all the world over would have been at stake. He has not forgotten the words that he laid down in his Note or in his speech to the Congress and the Senate in which he proclaimed war against Germany, and he will not forget them, and the time is not far distant, I hope, when he will be able to vindicate those principles.

Therefore it is not too late to utter a word of warning to the Government that they have still to be careful in their dealings with America, and that they ought to reflect and not run away with the idea that because the Foreign Minister has gone to that country and is getting a good reception there the whole thing is over. You have to do more than that. You have to secure the moral support of America or the consequences may yet be very unpleasant to this country. Now, one word more on the aspect of the question of censorship, and that is the persistent policy of the Government in forbidding the truth to be published about any of those districts in which they think things are not going pleasantly. I said that nothing was published about Gaza, and about Greece we have had little information, practically none whatever. All the telegrams were stopped. I say it is monstrous that the Government should not allow the people of this country to get information. I would give information to both sides, whereas now the policy of the Government is to suppress both sides. I pointed out the other day the case of a man in London who undertook to write a series of articles stating the case for the King of Greece. That was censored. But I would allow him to state his case and let the public judge. It is a stupid and perverse policy to use the censorship for such a purpose at all. Then I take the case of Russia. Look at the use the censorship has been put to in regard to Russia. We had, of course, the glaring case of the Milner Mission. God knows why. [An HON. MEMBER: "God does not know."] Nobody knows. Lord Milner went to Russia, and the censorship, as usual, was run at full force. He travelled about Russia in company with gentlemen most of whom have now been relegated to obscurity. He was wined and dined by them, and he made a number of speeches. I say we are entitled to hear what the plenipotentiary of our country going to foreign countries had to say. He delivered orations of which we are not allowed to know anything. We are entitled to know what our Ministers say abroad, but we are denied for some obscure purpose all knowledge of Lord Milner's speeches in Russia. The only thing that got out was the speech at Moscow, which was published in the "Morning Post." It was one of the most idiotic utterances ever uttered, in which he said that since he came to Russia he had found nothing but co-operation and good will amongst all sections of the Russian people. If he had believed one-tenth of the stories he heard he would have been in a lunatic asylum. He might have said he ought to have been locked up in a lunatic asylum rather than be sent to Russia. The leading Radical newspaper in Moscow declared that if the British Government could do nothing better than to send out a notorious reactionary to lecture to Russian Liberals it had better have kept him at home. That is the kind of thing which is done in the name of our Government. Then Lord Milner comes home, and on the 6th March issues an interview in this country, through Reuter, which seems to be a semi-official agency of the Government, saying that he went throughout the length and breadth of Russia, and found nothing but good will and harmony, and all the stories about disturbances and threatened revolution were nonsense; and that there was no difference of opinion, except about the methods of carrying on the War, and much the same differences as we have at home. That was on the 6th March, and on the 14th March the Tsar abdicated. What I want to ask the House is this: Are we entitled to place confidence in a man like that, as one of the War Cabinet, to carry on this War? Why is he supposed to be endowed with superhuman wisdom to carry on the War?

If he were not Lord Milner, all the ginger Press would be down on him and would condemn him unheard. But he is Lord Milner, he is one of the elect, and we are supposed to bow down before him and to accept his wisdom. His conduct in regard to the Russian mission condemns him and condemns the Government, who put this system of censorship to a use which the House of Commons never dreamt of when they gave it to the Government. And two and a half years ago, if the Government had given the House the faintest indication that they intended to use it as they have done in suppressing the "Nation" and Mr. Norman Angell's letter, the House would never for a moment have thought of giving them that power.

Take the last instance, the case of Roumania. This is one of the most scandalous instances in this War. Roumania was bullied into this War by us and by Russia and by Mr. Stuermer. Now, what has been the last revelation? According to my information, Mr. Stuermer presented a ultimatum to Roumania, and ordered her into the War; and I am very much afraid that the Gentleman whom we have at the head of the Foreign Office, Lord Hardinge, was a partner to Mr. Stuermer in that transaction, as was proved by his letter, which I read to the House, from a German newspaper. He talks of M. Bratiano being elusive, because he would not jump into the War at once. Now it turns out that Mr. Stuermer forced Roumania into the War in order to betray her to Germany, and we are now told that there was a secret understanding between Mr. Stuermer and Germany, and we were parties to that agreement. That is the latest statement, that he forced Roumania into the War, and betrayed her to Germany. Is anyone going to stand up for that? When, last October, I tried to raise a debate about Roumania it was hushed up, and was not to be talked about. I was told that all the Prime Minister could say was that we were doing everything we could for Roumania. What happened was that we were acting under the blackmail of the pro-German Government in Russia, and were obeying their orders; and not knowing what they were doing we were really acting as the catspaws of the German Government. And the unhappy Roumanians are now paying the price! And so, it is that, largely by this system of obscurantism and by resisting all discussion and information about these doubtful positions, every single Ally we have, every single small nation which has taken our side, ending with the painful case of Roumania—whom we cooperated with the Russians to force into the War on our side—has been desolated and ruined and handed over to the enemy. I press this case on the Government because it is a stupid, a mischievous and a ruinous policy, when these troubles arise, to drop a cloud of smoke over them and to hide them from the public view, thinking that by doing so you would obviate and neutralise the terrible consequences.

There is one part of the speech of the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down with which I am, in the main, in agreement. That is in what he said about America and the attitude of President Wilson. He said that we need not count upon America absolutely, but he himself gave the answer to that statement when he said that the American people had recognised that it was absolutely necessary for them to take part in this War in order to preserve the liberty of the world. We ask no guarantee from America beyond that. They have gone into the War for that purpose, and we are satisfied, alliance or no alliance, that they will put forward their whole efforts to secure that end. We ask nothing more from America than that. The hon. Gentleman began by stating that I had stated that I was going to review the whole theatre of War this afternoon. On the contrary, I made the exactly opposite statement. He laid down the curious doctrine that you must either deal only with finance or you must cover the whole field of the War, and he added that my right hon. Friend the late Prime Minister had adopted one or other of these courses, and that when he did make any survey at all of the military situation he made it in an utterly impartial manner. Well, I was his colleague. That was not the view of the whole House at the time. I do not remember what particular attitude the hon. Gentleman took, but there were very many who made precisely the same kind of criticism of my right hon. Friend which has been made by the hon. Gentleman about me. I have listened to the speech of the hon. Member, as I have listened to many similar speeches from him, with very mixed feelings. There is no Member of this House who is so severe a critic, not only of this Government but of this country in the conduct of this War, in every phase of it. I must say this to the Committee, that I should have listened to his criticism with more sympathy if I had some evidence that while he was acting as a critic of the War he was himself doing anything to help us in the prosecution of the War.

It is very easy for the hon. Gentleman to deal with all the subjects upon which he has touched, but it is very difficult for me. Anyone who is a Member of the Government must feel that in dealing with almost every one of these topics he is in danger of touching upon ground which is unsafe for him to deal with in public. But there are one or two aspects of the speech of the hon. Gentleman to which I can make reference. He told us a few moments ago that Roumania was bullied into the War by this country and by Russia. He also told us that Roumania had entered into the War as part of a plot, in which we took part, with the object of dividing Roumania between Russia and Germany. That is the same hon. Gentleman who condemned Lord Milner with very kind of violence because, ten days before it took place, he did not foresee the Russian revolution. Yet he asks the House of Commons to believe a cock-and-bull story like that, to which I should not have thought that any intelligent man in the world would have given the slightest credit. It is absolutely unfounded. We never bullied Roumania in the smallest degree to go into the War. We put no pressure upon her of any kind, and, what is more, I do not believe it is possible that such bullying could have taken place by Russia without our knowledge, and we had no such knowledge, and I do not believe for a moment that anything of the kind took place.

I do not know. The hon. Member talked about the points in Greece and quoted an extract from some newspaper to the effect that it was the British Government that was keeping King Tino on the throne. I suppose you could find some newspaper in this country to make the assertion that there is some other Government which is doing the same thing. At all events, whether it is in the newspaper or not, it is not true. We have taken no such action. To listen to the speeches which we have heard upon this subject one would think the thing was perfectly plain sailing, and that what the Allies are doing is setting up a zone in Greece to prevent the Venizelists, who are our friends, from taking command of Greece and coming to our assistance. If that had been done it would be a policy as insane as the hon. Member described it. I am not going to say what is going to be done in Greece or what our policy is there. I do not think it right to do so, but suppose this were the position, and it is possible, that in spite of our view the supporters of the King in Greece are more numerous and more powerful than the supporters of M. Venizelos, and suppose the drawing of this line is really a protection to the Venizelists against the assaults of the Greeks under the King.

I am not so sure of that. I have not seen any statement of that kind from him. But suppose that were true, look at it from this other point of view. I will not say what action we are preparing to take in regard to the matter, but suppose it were true that the present Greek Government had the support of a large section of the Greek people and of the majority of the Greeks who bear arms, would this House say off- hand that the first thing we had to do is to add to the number of our enemies by using our troops to effect a revolution in Greece and put our friends in command of them? It is an intelligible policy, perhaps it is the right policy, but it certainly does not infer imbecility, or anything of that kind, to think, not once or twice, but many times, before we add to our enemies and turn our troops on to an entirely new field of battle.

Let us look at the other points in regard to which the hon. Member thinks it is so easy for us to give information to the House. Take the expedition to Palestine. The hon. Member says nothing has been said about it. What is there to say? Are we to tell the House of Commons that on such-and-such a day we are going to renew the attack on Gaza and that we are going to send additional troops in order to make it successful? Is not all that kind of criticism an obvious indication of the absence of the elementary knowledge that we are at war and that we must act as if at war? Take, further, the position at Salonika. The hon. Member himself has given the best indication as to what the difficulties of the situation are there. He has told us we have made it very difficult to take away our troops from that theatre of war, but he says, "Tell us what you are going to do."

I do not know anything about that, and I should need something more than the hon. Gentleman's assertion before I accepted it.

I mean before I agreed that the circumstances and the conditions were the same. This is what the hon. Gentleman asks us. He says, "Are you going to make an attack or are you going to take your troops away?" Again, I ask, "Are we at war or are we not?" If you say you are going to attack you warn the enemy. If you say you are going to take your troops away, the first thing you do is to free the enemy there to take up action on some other front. It is utterly impossible that information of that kind in war can be given, either in the House of Commons or anywhere else. I said to-day that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister would refer to this subject, and it would be for him to judge what he could safely say even in a private Session. I do not think he can say what exactly we intend to do as a military operation in that theatre of war. The only other point to which I shall make reference is in regard to the censorship, and I do not think I shall occupy the time of the Committee long in regard to that. I listened to the speech of my right hon. Friend (Mr. H. Samuel) with a good deal of agreement and with some surprise. He laid down some principles with which I entirely agree. He said that where it was a question of naval or military information, it would be the naval or military authorities which should decide upon the censorship. I entirely agree with him there. He also said that where it was a question of opinion, it ought to be a civilian who should decide. There is a good deal to be said for that; but I would remind the right. hon. Gentleman that he was a member of a Government—and it was not a Coalition Government, but a Liberal Government—which made the competent military authority the decider in all such questions.

If the right hon. Gentleman looks it up, I am sure I am right. It was left to the competent military authority, and that was done by the Government of which he was a member.

That was a formality. It was so arranged that the matter was distributed by the heads of the Press Bureau, and they reported to the present Attorney-General, who was then responsible for these matters, and afterwards to the Home Secretary.

It is really a question of memory, and I am not going to say that my right hon. Friend is inaccurate, but I think he is. My recollection, for example, is that the "Globe" was suppresed by the action of the military authorities.

There I must correct the right hon. Gentleman. His memory has really played him false. That was an action, right or wrong, by the Home Secretary at the time, as I have reason to know, because I was Home Secretary.

I accept the right hon. Gentleman's statement. At all events the law leaves it to the competent military authority, and I would remind my right hon. Friend (Mr. Samuel) that he has taken a very active part in the suppression of things which were supposed to be dangerous in connection with the War. He did it not only at home but he did it to a considerable extent when he was acting more or less as Chief Secretary in Ireland and there he exercised precisely those powers. I do not quarrel with the general opinion which the right hon. Gentleman expressed that it is preferable that in regard to matters of opinion a Minister or somebody responsible to a civilian Minister should do the Press censorship. I do not disagree with him there, but I do not think that that position does not exist even in regard to the War Office. Under our system, with the single exception of Lord Kitchener, the head of the War Office has always been a civilian. He is a civilian now, and the civilian head of the War Office is obviously responsible for everything of this kind that is done. I do not therefore see that there has been any departure whatever in the principle of the matter from the course that was adopted under the late Government. I do not suppose that the House desires me to go again into the question of the "Nation." [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not?"]

Are we to understand that there has been a change of practice, and that the action which used to be in the hands of the Home Secretary is now transferred to the Secretary of State for War?

Not at all, but if any action is taken by the War Department the head of the War Office is obviously responsible. I do not suppose that it will be expected that I should go again into the question of the "Nation." It was debated pretty fully in the House of Commons before. My right hon. Friend has made the statement that everyone who spoke was against the Government except the Government spokesmen. That is not an uncommon experience of any Government, and the explanation of it is, as everyone knows, that those who are hostile to the Government criticise it, but those who agree with it do not take any part in the Debate. I do not wish to bring any unnecessary heat into the Debate at a time like this, but though the speeches were all, as my right hon. Friend says, in that direction yet when the hon. Members were challenged to express their opinion in the Division Lobby, as well as in speeches, that course was not taken. I venture to say that the reason is that the House felt as I felt that in that matter the country would be with the Government. My right hon. Friend cited the case of the "Times," and said the same action ought to have been taken as in the other case.

I do not think that the cases are analogous. I will tell the House why. I said the other day, in answer to a question, that the mere fact that the enemy had made use of an extract from a paper did not in itself condemn that paper. I have not read the article in the "Times" to which reference is made, and, therefore, I know nothing about it, but I assume that it dealt with the question of the failure of our food supply. [An HON. MEMBER: "Submarines."] If so, every Member of the House knows that any newspaper which deals with that subject is in precisely the same dilemma which any Member of the House or any man is placed in in dealing with it. On the one hand it is essential and almost vital that the country should realise the seriousness of the position. On the other hand you could not make a greater mistake than so to exaggerate the seriousness of the position as to give our enemies or neutrals the idea that it was so bad that we should be beaten and have to give in in consequence of it.

It is rather difficult in such circumstances to draw the line as regards the "Nation," and I say at once that nothing can be more difficult than to judge in cases of this kind when you should take action and when you should not. As regards the "Nation," the case which was made by me, and I think by others, when the subject was discussed was this, that the persistent tone of the articles in that paper was to this effect, "You cannot win the War; then why go on?"

I am perfectly ready to leave it to the judgment of any Member of the House who reads the article.

Right or wrong, that was the ground upon which I thought we were justified in stopping the foreign circulation of that newspaper. If the "Times" had pointed out the seriousness of the situation, and had drawn the moral that we must be beaten in consequence, and therefore we should stop the War, I would say that the "Times" should be treated in precisely the same way.

Am I to understand that a paper is not to be allowed to express the opinion that we are not likely to win, and that, therefore, it is expedient to make peace?

I most certainly say so, and I say that any Government responsible for the conduct of the War which deliberately allows views of that kind to be circulated abroad would instantly deserve to be asked to resign and give place to others. That is all I am going to say about the "Nation." As regards the article of Mr. Norman Angell, I have looked into it, and I say again that nothing is more difficult than to, decide whether or not an article of this kind should be suppressed. Some of those who have spoken, notably the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) were wrong in saying that this article was stopped because of its effect on the Germans. That is not so. The right hon. Member for Cleveland (Mr. H. Samuel) suggested that we might have asked Mr. Norman Angell to take out the part to which we took exception, and he would at once have done it. I do not think that my right hon. Friend can have read the article. The point to which we object was one of the main arguments on which the article was based. Let me just read to the House one sentence—it is nothing discreditable to Mr. Norman Angell—to show why the Censor stopped this article. It is a sentence which comes last in the article:

"Firstly, in all except legalist fiction, America has been at war with Germany for the last two years. It has afforded assistance to the Allies more real than that afforded to certain of the formal belligerents like Japan."

That was the kind of statement going to Germany from this country, that American neutrality was a sham, and that she had been at war with Germany all the time. That is the effect of the article. The Censor is responsible, and he may have been right or wrong in dealing with this article. I admit that there is room for difference of opinion, but we are entitled to take into account that the general object of the article was to get the assistance of America. There is reason for difference of opinion, but surely, at the very time when whether or not America was coming in was trembling in the balance, it was at least doubtful whether or not the assertion going from this country that America had been belligerent in all but name from the beginning was not such a statement as might do harm. It is a point which is open to difference of opinion. [An HON. MEMBER. "No!"] I think so, and I believe hon. Members will think so. I learn now from my right hon. Friend that at the time the article was sent in—and he was informed that it would not be allowed to go through—the request should have been made to make an alteration. I really do not know how these matters are worked, but, on the face of it, I should say that was a request which it was possible might be complied with; and I might make inquiry as to whether or not that is the kind of method which might be adopted in future in dealing with articles. We may not agree about it, but I do ask the Committee to believe that there is no desire on the part of the Government to interfere beyond the point which they think is really called for by the exigencies of the War. We do desire to preserve even in the midst of war the forms of liberty, and I have never changed my view about it. I belonged always to what is called the Conservative party, but, after all, we are all members of democratic parties in this country. I have never held any other view than this, that freedom of speech is one of the rocks on which our institutions rest, and I should, therefore, be very sorry to be a party to stopping it. As I have said already, there may be differences of opinion in particular cases, but of this I am certain, and that is, that it is the duty of the Government of the day, whatever Government it is, and I am sure the people of the country will take this view, to put war needs first, and if there is to be a mistake, to run the risk of that mistake rather in matters internal than in any which affect the prosecution of the War.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a general instruction of the War Office forbidding all writings of Mr. Angell leaving the country?

It seems to me that the Chancellor of the Exchequer comes down arid proposes to pass a Vote of Credit for £500,000,000 in a few hours, while we know that there are probably twenty Departments which will be directly interested in the spending, and in some cases I might even say the squandering of this vast sum of money. In each one of those Departments there are probably twenty or thirty, or perhaps, a, good many more distinct subjects which need the spur of criticism to get them to effect economies, retrenchment and reform. Under those circumstances we are asked in two or three hours to pass this matter through the Committee stage. I think that is hardly reasonable. I have watched pretty closely Debates with which the Government is criticised. While I find that there are many Members here who are only too willing and anxious to get up and criticise both in detail and in principle the administration of the Government, they take very particular care to avoid a Division if possible.

I think that is a great sign of weakness. In the last six months we have had a distinct change come over the Debates in this House. Before that there was a certain amount of criticism of what was in reality a Coalition Government for independent and private Members, and it was left to them. Since the reshuffle and the rearrangement and the exit from the governing body of certain Members there has been a complete change. What one notices in this House to-day is that the private Member gets up and criticises the Government, and possibly quite rightly—for on few occasions has there, in my opinion, been but little justification for it—and if the criticism goes fairly well, possibly another hon. Member gets up to assist. Directly the atmosphere has been raised to the desired temperature and there is an interest in the Debate, erstwhile members of the Government get up and proceed to attack the Government with facts and figures which they have in their possession as late occupants of that Front Bench opposite. That may be very sound criticism and very useful to the successful conduct of the War. But what would give me infinitely more confidence in their criticism would be that they were prepared to face the Government in reality and challenge a Division in support of their opinions. Possibly the most regrettable thing is that there is no constructive Opposition in this House. There is a certain amount of dignified dissent from every action which the Government takes, but the criticisms, if I may suggest it, are made by disappointed and disgruntled politicians who have held office. That is not the sort of criticism which is helpful. The right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Benches know quite well what is in the minds of the right hon. Gentlemen opposite. They have sat side by side, they have shared their seats, and they have shared some misrepresentations to this House. Then the right hon. Gentlemen get up, who in their turn possibly have risen from that bench and have deceived this House more than any other Members, and have answered questions in a way that is a disgrace to the Ministerial Bench, and assume an attitude of mock superiority, regretting that the present Government have behaved in the way they have. This sort of thing leaves me cold. I believe the Chancellor of the Exchequer was right when he said that many of the hon. Members who had criticised the Government over the "Nation" question feared a Division and feared to see their names as having opposed the Government, because they knew that they would have to face their constituents. They would not like the other side to send down to say that they actually voted against the Government on such and such a measure. In spite of that, I think that this Government, perhaps more than any other, needs criticism. There was a discussion this afternoon on the question of starch. The stiffness with which the Government conduct some of their relationships with the House might suggest that there was no shortage of it. I should like to see them use a substitute. An hon. Member suggested ginger. Possibly sugar—certainly sweetness would be preferable to the stiffness with which we have been treated. Only this afternoon I was told that it was not to the interest of the country to state how many unarmed ships had been sunk by the Germans. What possible use could it be to the enemy to know how many of the 300 or 500 or 200 of the ships sunk were unarmed The only thing it does if, as I suggest is the case, a majority of the ships, or a large percentage of the ships, sunk were unarmed, is to reflect on the administration both past and present, but how can it possibly help the enemy our knowing the actual conditions under which ships were sunk when they must know quite well how many of our ships which have been sunk were armed and how many were not armed? Does the right hon. Gentleman, who so fiercely resented criticism of the Admiralty administration, think that the Germans do not know the ships that fired a gun before they were sunk and the ships that did not fire a gun before they were sunk?

Might I make an appeal to my hon. Friend to allow us to have this Vote to-night? There has never been any difficulty about getting a Vote of Credit, and it would be specially inconvenient not of get it to-night beacuse it wound be impossible to have the Secret Session with Mr. Speaker in the Chair if the Vote were not carried.

On that point, may I put this also to my right hon. Friend which I have been waiting all day to put—if we have the Report stage of this Vote tomorrow it will only be possible for each Member to talk once, whereas if we allow the Committee stage to run over to tomorrow there will be that kind of feeling which is necessary in Secret Session, so that anybody who raises particular points can speak more than once? I believe that if my right hon. Friend agrees to that there would be no difficulty about a Report stage, and I think that there would be an immense advantage in having the Secret Session in Committee.

I can only make an appeal to both my hon. Friends. I think there would be great disadvantage in not having Mr. Speaker himself in the Chair. I can only appeal to my hon. Friend to allow the Vote of Credit to pass through Committee to-night.

I propose to raise a question which I am sure is of interest to a number of hon. Members. I asked to-day whether it would be possible to ask questions, if necessary, during the Secret Session. I am quite sure there are very few Members who want to come down and listen to speeches. What we want is to be able to put definite questions and get answers to them. That is all we want. There are half a dozen questions I want to put to the Front Bench to which I want definite answers, which questions I have been told again and again cannot be answered in open Session. If we could take this Vote in Committee to-morrow it would mean that Members would rise again and again and put, if anything, very short and very pertinent questions by way of speech. But if we are to be limited to coming down and rising in utter ignorance of everything that has taken place, we shall be making speeches which can be of no possible interest. The only people we want to hear in Secret Session are those on the Front Bench, and not other Members making surmises. I am quite sure it does not do any harm in open Session, but in Secret Session we want to rise continually, if I may suggest, with short, pertinent requests, to which I trust we will get pertinent answers. No one would regret more than I myself that the Speaker should not be in the Chair on that occasion, but I do say that we are dealing with a vast sum of money, £500,000,000, which we are asked to let pass in a few hours. I am perfectly confident we are not doing our duty to our constituents or to the country at least if we do not do our little best as private Members to watch the expenditure. There is no Member in this House who would endeavour to prevent the Government from getting all the money that they wish, and I am sure I am the last man to delay getting it, but, so far as to-morrow's Secret Session is concerned, I consider that it would serve the purposes of this House a great deal better if we could rise when necessary and ask questions, the answers to which would most probably prevent a considerable amount of criticism which we have had by private Members in this House. There are all sorts of questions—

It being Eleven of the clock the CHAIRMAN left the Chair to make his Report to the House.

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

Trade Union (Amalgamation) Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

Will the Minister in charge of this Bill give the House some idea of what is in it? It is preposterous, after having sat all day discussing a Vote of Credit, to ask us to take the Second Reading of a Bill upon which the Government offers no comment at all. The House of Commons is entitled to some respect, and if we cannot get that respect we must take advantage of the Rules of the House. This Bill concerns trade unions and deals with amalgamation. This new Ministry has set up a Ministry of Labour—

Yes, I do object.

Second Reading deferred till to-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Six minutes after Eleven o'clock.