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Commons Chamber

Volume 93: debated on Monday 14 May 1917

House of Commons

Monday, May 14, 1917

Private Business

South Eastern and London, Chatham, and Dover Railways Bill,

To be read the third time To-morrow.

West Kent Electric Power Bill [ Lords ],

Read the third time, and passed, without amendment.

Bristol Water Bill, Levinstein (Railways) Bill, Mansfield Railway Bill [ Lords ], Port of London Authority (Various Powers) Bill, South Staffordshire Mond Gas (Power and Heating) Bill [ Lords ], Yorkshire Registries (North Riding) Bill [ Lords ].

As amended, considered; to be read the third time.

Haslemere and District Gas Bill [ Lords ], Hemel Hempsted Gas Bill [ Lords ], Lancashire Power Construction Company Bill [ Lords ], Lea Bridge District Gas Bill [ Lords ], Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Tramways Bill [ Lords ],

Read a second time, and committed.

Perth School Board Order Confirmation Bill,

Considered; to be read the third time to-morrow.

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill,

"To confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board relating to Bognor, Carlisle, Lytham, Swansea, Watford, the Ormside Joint Hospital District, and the district of Aspatria, Silloth, and District Joint Water Board," presented by Mr. HAYES FISHER; read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private tills, and to be printed. [Bill 47.]

Factories and Workshops

Copy presented of Annual Report of the Chief Inspector of Factories and Workshops for the year 1916 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Police Act, 1890

Copy presented of Correspondence relative to the refusal of the Secretary of State's certificate under Section 17 (2) of the Police Act, 1890, to the Tyne River Police Force, for the year ended 29th September 1916 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Irish Universities Act, 1908

Copy presented of Statute IX. of University College, Cork [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Royal Observatory (Edinburgh)

Copy presented of the Twenty-seventh Annual Report of the Astronomer Royal for Scotland [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Ministry of Food

Copy presented of the Maize, Barley, and Oats Restriction Order, 1917, and the Burmah Beans and Peas Requisition Order, 1917, made by the Food Controller under the Defence of the Realm Regulations [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

British Trade Corporation

Copy presented of Petition of Promoters, Deed of Settlement, and Royal Chart Incorporation [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Board of Education

Copies presented of Regulations for Secondary Schools in Wales [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Copy presented of Report of the Board of Education under the Welsh Inter- mediate Education Act, 1889, for the year 1916 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 81.]

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Food Supplies

Fish Transport, Ireland

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether any decision has been come to by the Railway Executive as to the question of prepayment in the case of parcels of fish carried on the Irish railways?

The Railway Executive Committee have now agreed to exempt fish sent from Irish ports from the Regulation requiring prepayment of parcels sent by passenger train.

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he can state what steps he has taken in view of the defective transport arrangements for fish and other foodstuffs from Ireland in order to ensure satisfactory arrangements for the future?

asked whether he has now made investigation into the complaints with regard to the wasted supplies of fish in Ireland consequent on the delay and difficulty in conveyance to the English markets; whether he can say if arrangements have been made to prevent a recurrence of such difficulty and delay; and whether the arrangement will include provision for the conveyance of returned fish empties to Ireland?

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what arrangements have been made for the curing of mackerel; whether such arrangements will take effect in the West of Ireland; and, if so, whether communications have been sent to the fish merchants and curers in Cahirciveen and Valentia, which are the headquarters of the industry, which has been established for a number of years on the coast of South Kerry?

The Ministry of Food have asked me to reply to the latter question, and I will answer it and the others together. Directions have been given by the Railway Executive Committee which will increase the means of transport of fish by rail. Action has also been taken for better utilisation of other means of transport. The possible increase of curing facilities is under consideration. As has been stated by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, the President of the Board of Trade has directed the withdrawal, as regards Ireland, of the Regulations as to prepayment of charges which was said to cause delay in consignments from remote districts.

Sugar

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that Mr. M. J. Stephenson, Adamstown, got thirty bags of sugar from Messrs. Hill and Son, Waterford, in 1915, and only four bags from 1st January last up to 27th April, and that he has been refused more than one bag a month; and if he will see that Mr. Stephenson gets the quantity of sugar to which he is entitled?

The Royal Commission on the Sugar Supply have communicated with Messrs. Hill and Son about this case. They are informed that Mr. Stephenson received from Messrs. Hill and Son 66 cwt. of sugar during the year 1915, and that up to 3rd May he had for this year received 12 cwt. These figures suggest no cause of complaint. The Commission have invited Mr. Stephenson's observations upon them, but they have not yet received any reply.

Is the hon. Gentleman in a position to say whether he has carried into effect the promise made here a short time ago that he would have a representative of the Sugar Commission appointed for Ireland?

I did not make a promise to that effect. It was suggested that it might be advisable to appoint a Distribution Committee for sugar in Ireland, and the matter is now under the attention of the Chief Secretary, on a recommendation from the Food Controller.

asked whether West Indian raw sugars which are imported into this country are largely consumed here in the raw state; and whether there is any reason to suppose that such sugars contain impurities which would make them unsuitable for human consumption?

Broadly speaking, two descriptions of West Indian raw sugar are imported into this country. One known as "grocery" sugar polarises at about 98 deg., and is intended for, and goes direct into, human consumption on arrival here. The other known as West India refining, polarises at about 96 deg., and goes through a refinery here before it is used for human consumption. These sugars prepared abroad are free from the impurities which prevent the issue of the bulk of raw sugar received in this country.

Maize and Flour

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if he will state the quantities of flour and maize consumed in Ireland for the past three months, and of this flour how much has been milled in Ireland; and if he will give the quantities of cattle-feeding offal imported into Ireland from Great Britain during the same period?

The information asked for by my hon. Friend is not at present available. I am making inquiries to ascertain what information on this subject can be furnished to him.

No, I am unable to give an answer to any part of the question until the matter is further investigated.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that very large quantities of potatoes are being fed to cattle in Ireland, which people in the North of Ireland would be very glad to change into offal?

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food, in view of the lesser risk in landing wheat and maize at Irish ports, and the ability of Irish millers to manufacture sufficient flour to satisfy the demands of Ireland at the present rate of rationing, whether he will arrange with the Wheat Commission to have Ireland's equivalent supply of wheat shipped direct to Ireland instead of continuing the present systems of incurring greater risk and transport in bringing it first to an English port and then transhipping to Ireland at further risk and cost, and an added strain on the land and water transport of the country.

Before the hon. Gentleman answers this question may I ask whether an answer is not calculated to give valuable information to the enemy?

My answer will certainly give no information of value to the enemy. The hon. Member is under a misapprehension. The Wheat Commission have always endeavoured to supply wheat to Ireland by direct cargoes, and not by transhipment from an English part. Subject to the exigencies of shipping, this system of direct supply will be maintained.

Potatoes (Army Canteen Committee)

asked the Under Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the Army Canteen Committee or the Forage Committee stated to be acting on behalf of the Army Council, have requisitioned from farmers and merchants in England potatoes at £9 and £10 per ton and have transferred them to the Board of Agriculture for Scotland; whether he is aware that these potatoes are being sold either through trade associations or to individual merchants at £13 per ton, and profiteering by one Department or the other is going on to the extent of £3 per ton; whether the Army Canteen Committee have power to requisition potatoes; if so, by whom, upon what date, and under what authority; and whether potatoes purchased by Scottish merchants from either the Board of Agriculture, or the Army Canteen Committee, or the Forage Department are also being sold to retailers at prices above those fixed by the Food Controller?

The Army Canteen Committee, acting on behalf of the Army Council, have power under the Defence of the Realm Regulations to requisition potatoes for the use of the troops. The Committee were instructed by the War Cabinet to transfer 10,000 tons to the Scottish Office. I have no knowledge of their subsequent fate.

Will the hon. Gentleman say at what price the War Cabinet transferred the potatoes to Scotland, and what became of the large profit realised?

I think my hon. Friend must put that question to my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland.

Perishable Foodstuffs (Transit)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that many truck loads of green vegetables have recently been rendered unfit for human consumption by reason of the delays in transit on the railways; and whether quicker transit and better facilities will be given to all perishable foodstuffs, particularly during the summer months, so that such wastage can be avoided?

I have no information in regard to the cases of delay referred to by the right hon. Gentleman, but if he will furnish me with particulars I will cause inquiry to be made. Meanwhile, I assure him that special efforts are made by the railway companies to deal expeditiously with traffic in perishable foodstuffs.

Petrol Supplies

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether any new Regulations have been issued under the Defence of the Realm Acts relative to the consumption of petrol by motor vehicles plying for hire other than taxi-cabs and motor omnibuses; and, if so, will he make the terms of the Orders known to the House?

In view of the very serious diminution which has recently taken place in the available supply of petrol it has been found necessary to issue a Defence of the Realm Regulation prohibiting, subject to certain exceptions, the use of motor spirit in hired motor cars. The terms of this Regulation, of which I am sending the hon. and gallant Gentleman a copy, have been published in the "London Gazette" and elsewhere.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it is stated in the Press that the allowance to the civilian motorist of France is over 2 gallons per head per day? If that is true, can he account for the much greater supply of petrol in France than we have in Great Britain?

asked the Chief Secretary whether his attention has been called to the fact that an unusually large number of motor cars, especially for the use of Sinn Feiners, were used in the South Longford election for electioneering purposes; whether he can state from what sources of supply petrol was obtained for these purposes; and whether, in view of the inconvenience caused to persons in England owing to the shortage of petrol, he will take steps to restrict the supply of petrol in Ireland for Parliamentary elections?

My attention was called to the extensive use of motor cars in this election on both sides. The cars and the petrol which was consumed appear to have been obtained from local dealers and garage proprietors. The regulations of the Petrol Control Committee appear not to have contemplated excessive use of hired cars. I have called for reports which I shall communicate to the Committee.

Railway Hotel Facilities, Ireland

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the Irish railway companies issue combined rail and hotel tickets available only at hotels owned by railway companies; what is the reason for this discrimination against private hotels of equal standing to the railway hotels referred to; and whether, if this system is to be continued, compensation will be paid to private hotel owners for the loss occasioned them by this State monopoly?

The practice to which the hon. Gentleman refers is one of long standing, and is not in any way the result of the present control of the railways by the Government. As at present advised, I do not think it is necessary to interfere with it.

India Stamp Branch (Female Tellers)

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that certain female tellers in the India Stamp Branch are receiving wages and war bonus which only exceed 22s. in one case; whether he is aware that an application for an increase of pay has been refused; and whether, in view of the high cost of living, an increase will now be granted?

The facts are as stated in the first two parts of the question. The case has been brought before the Conciliation and Arbitration Board for Government Employés, whose awards I have undertaken to accept.

Dowager Duchess of Saxecoburg and Gotha

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Dowager Duchess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha is in receipt of an annual sum from the British Treasury; whether, since the beginning of the War, this lady has resided in Germany; whether the consideration for which this payment was agreed to depended on the continuance of the Imperial régime in Russia; and whether this case will be revised with a view to distributing the money in question amongst widows of soldiers who have fallen at the front in circumstances of exceptional devotion and self-sacrifice?

The annuity to which the hon. Member refers is secured to Her Imperial Highness by the terms of a solemn Treaty with Russia of 22nd January, 1874, Article XII. of which stipulates that the grant shall be personal and inalienable, while Article XIII. reserves to Her Imperial Highness entire freedom in regard to her choice of a place of residence.

That is rather a difficult question. It is a Treaty which inures to the benefit of an individual, and whether the consent of the two Governments, would be able to abrogate that is a matter about which I should like notice.

British Labour Delegate

asked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the fact that it is the policy of the Government to send to Petrograd those who represent labour in the widest sense he can offer any explanation why Mr. Robert Smillie, president of the Miners Federation of Great Britain, the greatest trade union in the United Kingdom, was not appointed as a delegate?

The hon. Member will doubtless see that it would be both invidious and unprofitable to discuss by question and answer why a particular gentleman was or was not selected by the Government to discharge a particular public duty.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not admit that labour is not represented in its widest sense when the representative of a million miners is not sent to Petrograd, but a representative of the Gasworkers is?

It is difficult to say; but I should have thought that the Gentleman selected, Mr. William Thorne, was as representative a labour man as it was possible to find.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say why in this case the labour bodies are not allowed to nominate their own representatives, and why the Government select them?

You would have to select the labour bodies. You cannot send a deputation to Russia from every trade union in this country. That would be impracticable. The Government are anxious that it should be done effectively and fairly, and in the public interest, and in such a way as to avoid these kind of questions, which are of no advantage to the public interest.

No, none whatever. The objection was raised by those who are definitely opposed to the War, and no one else.

May I ask if the right hon. Gentleman does not think that his method is the reason for the statement in Petrograd that these men are the agents of the Government and not the representatives of labour?

If anyone in Petrograd has been misled in this matter it is by those who are opposed to the War here, and who think it consistent with their patriotic duty to work against their own country.

Will the Noble Lord consider the desirability of having the sanction of the House of Commons in the selection of these representatives in future? In view of the terrific blundering of Lord Milner in Russia, is it not very desirable that the House of Commons, which is the supreme body of the nation, should select these representatives?

Of course, any suggestion coming from the hon. Member would be in a very different category from those coming from others, and would receive the very careful attention of the Government. I think he will see that this particular suggestion would not be practicable.

Naval and Military Pensions and Grants

Court of Appeal

asked the Pensions Minister whether he can now give the personnel of the Court of Appeal for men whose cases are dealt with by gratuities and the steps to be taken by such men in appealing for pensions.

I cannot yet furnish the information desired by my hon. Friend, but I hope to be able to do so within a few days.

If a man has received in the meantime a gratuity, will he be able to appeal to the Appeal Tribunal when it is set up with respect to a pension?

Disabled and Wounded Men (Re-Enlistment)

asked if a discharged soldier in receipt of a pension for wounds, or disability attributable to military service, who is re-enlisted will in the event of his being again wounded, or further disabled by causes attributable to military service, be granted a fresh pension earned during the second period of service in addition to the original pension earned during the first period?

In the circumstances stated by my hon. Friend, if the second disability is distinct from that which caused the first invaliding and both disabilities continue, a fresh pension will be granted in addition to the original pension, provided always that the total of the two pensions shall not exceed the pension payable for the highest degree of disablement. If, however, the second invaliding is for the original cause or aggravation thereof, one pension will be granted based on the condition of the disability at the time of the second invaliding.

Does the right hon. Gentleman contemplate a man being called up who is already in receipt of a pension and who, therefore, may be eligible for a second pension?

Artificial Limbs

asked how many soldiers have been supplied with artificial limbs, and at what total cost to the State?

The total number of artificial limbs supplied from the beginning of the War up to the end of last month was 8,805. The total public expenditure during this period on the supply and renewal of artificial limbs and other surgical appliances was £127,293. The accounts for limbs have not been kept separate from those for surgical appliances, and their cost cannot, without an undue amount of labour, be stated separately.

asked the Pensions Minister what steps he has taken to ascertain the cost of production of artificial limbs and what has been the result?

As I informed the hon. Member on the 19th April, I am advised by a committee of technical experts, and I can assure him that both expenditure and production are carefully watched. Considerable reductions in the prices paid have been effected from time to time.

Widows

asked the Pensions Minister, whether, seeing that all widows of men in the ranks received a grant of £5 from the Royal Patriotic Fund up to 30th June, 1916, when the work was taken over by the Statutory Committee, and that from 30th June, 1916, to 4th April, 1917, grants of £3 were only made by the Statutory Committee in a few special cases, and that since 4th April, 1917, it is again provided that all widows shall receive a grant, he will take steps to place the widows of men who died between 30th June, 1916, and 4th April, 1917, on an equally favourable footing as the other widows?

I am informed that the full amount of the £5 grant from the Royal Patriotic Fund was not paid unless the circumstances of the case required it. As regards the £3 grant from the Statutory Committee, it is true that this was only to be given where required to meet urgent and necessary expenditure consequent upon the death of the sailor or soldier, but the Statutory Committee have every reason to believe that Local Committees carried out this regulation sympathetically, and that due consideration was given to the cases of all widows in connection with it. The grants under the terms of the new Warrant have effect from the 4th April, and I see no sufficient reason for obtaining special powers to make such grants in earlier cases. I may add that the whole matter is, however, under reconsideration with a view to an increase in the grant.

Medical Treatment (Widows and Orphans)

asked what provision is to be made for the medical treatment of widows and orphans of soldiers and sailors during and after the War?

The National Health Insurance Commissioners are now considering at my request how the medical treatment of widows and orphans of sailors and soldiers killed in the present War can best be provided. My hon. Friend is doubtless aware that the whole question of medical service will be further dealt with in connection with the proposal to establish a Ministry of Health.

Soldiers Discharged (Medically Unfit)

asked how many sailors and soldiers discharged as medically unfit have been dealt with by the Pensions Ministry to date; what percentage of the total have been pensioned; what percentage have been given gratuities; and what is the average amount of the gratuities?

Of the 31,590 sailors and soldiers discharged as medically unfit since the Ministry took over its duties on the 15th February, 81.9 per cent. have received pensions and 7.8 per cent. gratuities. Of the 13,540 so discharged since the new Order in Council and Royal Warrant came into force on 4th April, 84.7 per cent. have received pensions and 15 per cent. gratuities. Out of 3,000 men who since the latter date have applied for reconsideration of refusals to pension them under previous warrants 367 have been given pensions and 404 gratuities, and the remaining applications which have come in rapidly in the last few days are in hand at various stages of consideration. The average amount of gratuities could not be ascertained without analysing the 2,500 cases in which gratuities have been awarded, and I trust my hon. Friend will not attempt to impose this task upon us at the present time.

Will the Pensions Ministry be able to overtake the reconsideration of refusals to the extent that the right hon. Gentleman hopes?

It all depends upon whether or not the applications are sent in. Only 3,000 cases have been sent in, and we have to wait until they are sent in. Of the total number I thought that we might have had a very large percentage before now, but we have only had a small fraction.

Case Under Investigation

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office why Martin Kenneally, of Railway Road, Abbeyfeale, county Limerick, labourer, has received no allowance from the War Office in respect of his son, Private Martin Kenneally, No. 18034, of the 2nd Battalion Royal Irish Regiment, who enlisted in January, 1916, beyond the allowance of 3s. 6d. a week which the latter has made to him; can he say why even this amount was stopped from the 1st August to 8th November; and, as Private Kenneally contributed to his father's support before enlistment, will he take steps to see that this man gets the allowance he is entitled to?

Inquiries are being made, and I will inform the hon. Member of the result in due course.

Prison Regulations (Writing Materials)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the prison regulations forbid to all prisoners the use of writing paper except for the monthly letter, although allowing the use of a slate and slate pencil; and, if so, seeing that this restriction inflicts a useless penalty in many cases where leisure time might profitably be employed in writing, will he take steps to have it removed?

The supply of writing materials to prisoners must be governed by general rules, and experience shows that, if the rules are not strict, serious abuses arise. Prisoners under short sentences are, therefore, allowed the use of writing materials only to the extent mentioned in the question; but the greater part of their time is employed on prison industries, and their leisure can be filled by reading the books from the prison library. Well-behaved prisoners under long sentence of penal servitude, and inmates of Borstal institutions, are allowed note-books to enable them to carry on their studies.

Would the existing prison regulations have made it possible for Bunyan to write "The Pilgrim's Progress," or Penn to write "No Cross, no Crown"?

I cannot answer that question. If the hon. Member wishes, he can put down another question.

National Service

Clergymen Enrolled

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of National Service the number of clergymen and Ministers of other denominations who have enrolled for national service in England and the corresponding figures for Wales?

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of NATIONAL SERVICE
(Mr. Stephen Walsh)

The number of clergymen of the Church of England who are so far recorded as having enrolled for general national service is in England 1730, and in Wales 329. The numbers for other denominations are, respectively, 511 and 525. These numbers do not include those who have enrolled with the Bishops or other denominational authorities for special (spiritual) service—for example, by relieving others for secular duty.

Military Service

Croydon Appeal Tribunal (Exemption)

asked the Secretary to the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the case of Mr. Andrew M'Laren, who was granted exemption from military service by the Surrey and Croydon appeal tribunal conditional on his doing work of national importance with Messrs. Wallis and Stevens, of Basingstoke, and who has had his exemption withdrawn at the instance of his employers for bad timekeeping in connection with work which he did not consider to come within the scope of his undertaking; can he say whether the repairing of brewers' tractors is to be regarded as work of national importance; and is the employer of the conscientious objector the arbiter in this matter?

I am not aware of the case to which reference is made. It is for the tribunals to decide whether or not, when application is made to them, the facts justify the withdrawal of a certificate.

Review of Exceptions Act

asked the Prime Minister whether he has received a resolution from the Disabled Soldiers' and Sailors' Club, Poplar, stating that no member of that club will submit to medical re-examination under the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act for the purpose of being recalled to the colours until every other fit man has been called up; whether he proposes to take any action under the Defence of the Realm Regula- tions; and, if so, whether he will afford the House the opportunity of discussing his proposals before they are acted upon?

May I ask if the hon. Gentleman has seen the report of a speech delivered by the hon. Member (Mr. Hogge), in which he stated that in a like position he would also refuse?

I did notice, with very great regret, the statement by the hon. Member.

I think it is a very regrettable statement to be made by a Member of the House of Commons who has complete knowledge of all the circumstances

I understand that my right hon. Friend has received the resolution referred to, but I am not acquainted with its exact terms. I may point out to my hon. Friend that a man who has been discharged from Naval or Military Service on account of wounds certified under the authority of the Admiralty or the Army Council to have been received from the enemy is not liable to submit himself to medical re-examination under the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act. No action is required under the Defence of the Realm Regulations for enforcement of the provisions of the Act under which men are required to present themselves for medical examination. The Act itself by Section 1 (3) provides a penalty for non-compliance which will be enforced in suitable cases.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware, in spite of all he says, that men who are in receipt of pensions, and whose pensions have been increased because of greater disability, have been put into the Army under this Act?

Are we to understand from the answer that it is the intention of the War Office to prosecute my hon. Friend?

Conventions and Allied States Bill

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that the Military Service (Conventions with Allied States) Bill now before the House does not apply to Ireland, he will state what immediate measures the Government intend to take to prevent a British subject or the subject of a Foreign Allied country, who, under this Bill, should it become an Act, will be liable for military service either in the British Army or in the Army of the Allied country, from escaping liability by taking up residence in Ireland?

Sight has not been lost of the point raised by my hon. and gallant Friend. It is not considered that there is much danger of a loophole for escape from due liability to military service in the direction which he indicates, but the matter is receiving consideration.

Farm Servants (Exemptions)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if his attention has been called to the allegations made by the Scottish farm servants' officials that farmers are using military representatives to coerce employés; if he has observed that George W. Bertram, Birkenside, Earlston, Berwickshire, having had a quarrel with one of his farm servants, requested the military representative to move for a cancellation of the exemption granted to the servant on the ground that his services were indispensable; whether this servant was to move from Birkenside to another farm within two months of the request being made to the military representative by the farmer; whether his immediate employer stated that the man was necessary and the other employer who had hired him was not consulted; and whether he will see that military representatives are not used to compel workmen to accept unfair treatment at the hands of employers?

Inquiries have been made. It appears that the man referred to by my hon. Friend is John Hastie, ploughman, formerly employed at Birkenside. When his case came before the local tribunal his then prospective employer was not present or represented, and exemption was refused. The case was taken to the Appeal Tribunal, and I am informed that Hastie was granted conditional exemption in view of his having entered into a new contract of agricultural employment.

Has the hon. Gentleman ascertained if it is the case that Mr. Bertram did make the application alleged to have been made in the question?

My understanding of the case is as follows: I understand that Mr. Bertram did say that John Hastie was no longer indispensable to him.

Will the hon. Gentleman make inquiry as to whether Mr. Bertram did request that this man should be applied for by the military representative?

Classification

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the fact that the Army authorities only recognise two classes of men attached to the Colours (fit or sick), and that the result of this classification is that there are thousands of men capable of doing a moderate day's work, especially on the land, allowed to kill time in the case of men suffering from wounds of head, neck, or jaw, which take a long time to heal or to correct the deformities: and, seeing that it would be an advantage to the men as well as to the State for them to have regular occupation on the land or at their own trades during such period of convalescence, when they are in other respects physically fit, whether he will consider the advisability of forming a third class, composed of working convalescents, who could replace men eligible for the front but at present occupied in semi-military work at home?

My hon. Friend is under a misapprehension in supposing that the Army authorities recognise only the two classes to which he refers. Their first concern, however, is to get men fit again as quickly as possible to resume their military duty. I am afraid that my hon. Friend's suggestion would not further this object, but might interfere with their treatment and impede their recovery.

Army Reserve, Class W

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War the number of men who have been transferred from the Colours to Army Reserve, Class W; how many of them have been re-transferred to the Colours; and how many have been discharged?

I am afraid that the information asked for in the first part of the question cannot be given without detriment to the public interest. The answer to the second and third parts of the question would involve considerable labour in the record offices, which are already overworked, and I regret that I cannot undertake to supply it.

Disabled Men (Rejoining)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War why men disabled and in receipt of pensions are being ordered to rejoin their regimnts; and whether this practice is authorised?

If my hon. Friend will furnish me with the particulars of the specific case, or cases, to which he refers, inquiries will be made. Any such practice would be contrary to the instructions that have been issued.

I have promised a case already. Meantime, is it not the duty of the War Office to know the condition of those men and not to send them these notices?

I have already explained to my hon. Friend that all that any man who receives this notice is required to do is to fill up the space at the back of the form and explain the circumstances.

Does not my hon. Friend note that the question relates to men being asked not to come up for re-examination, but to rejoin the Colours—which is a different notice?

Medical Re-Examination

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the statement of the military representative at Wandsworth tribunal on Monday, the 30th April, in which he said that 5,400 men in the borough of Wandsworth were being called up for medical re-examination and were being examined at the rate of 200 a day; and whether he can state the average time given to each of the 200 men so examined?

Two hundred men are called up each day for medical re-examination. In all cases where the recruiting officer considers it manifest that a man is permanently disabled and unfit for any form of military service, a statement of his disabilities is submitted to the President of the Recruiting Medical Board and if that officer is satisfied that no good purpose would be served by having the man medically examined, a discharge certificate is sent to the man. A very large percentage of the men called up for re-examination proves to be in this category. The average time devoted to each man who is actually examined by the medical board is from fifteen to twenty minutes. The hon. Member will see that in these circumstances there is no necessary ratio between the numbers called up and the time devoted to men examined.

Does the hon. Gentleman mean fifteen or twenty minutes or fifteen or twenty seconds?

Does the hon. Gentleman seriously say that he has been informed that each man gets fifteen or twenty minutes, and that 200 men are examined in one day?

Exemptions

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether a miner who holds an exemption card signed by His Majesty's divisional inspector of mines exempting him (so long as he continues to be employed in a mine) from the provision of the Military Service Acts, 1916, is liable to be called up for medical examination, and afterwards, if found fit, to be called up for military or other service; and, if so, will he state the enactments, etc., authorising this to be done?

A man subject to the Military Service Acts who holds a valid certificate of exemption issued by a Colliery Recruiting Court under the authority of the Home Office and current for the time being cannot be called up for military service. If, however, he has not been already medically examined by a Recruiting Medical Board he can be required to present himself for medical examination under Defence of the Realm Regulation 45 C.

Travelling Allowances

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether it was with his sanction that instructions have been sent to Army paymasters that soldiers travelling on Army business are to be put on a continuous allowance of 2s. 6d. per day, which is to cover travelling expenses, rations, and lodging; and whether, with the present prices of food and seeing that it is impossible for soldiers to get more than one meal a day out of such sum and to perform his duties under such conditions, he will instruct paymasters that the allowance of 2s. 6d. is to be paid in addition to the ration and lodging allowances?

Soldiers travelling on Army business are now generally provided with food and lodging by means of billets and not of a money allowance. But there exists a standing authority for a rate of allowance of 2s. 6d. a night, dating from peace time. I will consider what increase in this rate is necessary under present conditions.

Is the food arrangements over and above the 2s. 6d. money allowance referred to in the question?

Prisoners of War (Exchange)

asked the hon. Member for Sheffield (Central Division) if he is aware that an agreement is being negotiated through the medium of the Swiss Government for an exchange of French and German prisoners of war, including civilian prisoners; and if there is any prospect of similar terms being arranged with regard to British prisoners of war in Germany?

I will answer the question by reference to previous answers, as the answer would be of inordinate length if it went into detail. The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. In regard to the second part, agreements are already in force between His Majesty's Government and the German Government for the repatriation of British and German combatant prisoners of war who are totally incapacitated from further service. With regard to the transfer to Switzerland of British and German wounded and sick prisoners of war, I would refer my hon. Friend to White Paper Miscellaneous No. 17 (1916). An agreement has been come to for the repatriation from Switzerland of those British and German prisoners of war who are totally unfit for further service. In regard to this, I would refer my hon. Friend to my reply on the 9th instant to the question of my hon. Friend the member for Bassetlaw. In regard to the transfer to a neutral country of prisoners of war who have been in captivity for over two years, I would refer my hon. Friend to my reply on the 30th April to the question by the hon. Member for Mid-Armagh.

Does the hon. Gentleman expect me to derive satisfaction from an answer which is given entirely by reference on a matter of very great interest?

I know, but to give a full reply would take up an undue amount of the time of the House. I shall be very glad to talk the matter over with my hon. Friend.

Civil Servants (War Bonus)

asked the hon. Member for Worcestershire (Bewdley Division) if the recent award of the Conciliation and Arbitration Board for Government employés granting an increased war bonus to Civil servants from the 1st January last will apply to Ireland; and if it will be on the same basis as in England?

asked the hon. Member for Worcestershire (Bewdley Division), as representing the Secretary to the Treasury, whether he is aware that the recent concession of 5s. a week to a small number of the tellers at Somerset House still leaves 180 women and girls whose wages, including war bonus, range from 10s. to 22s. a week; whether he is aware that it is impossible to live properly on these wages and that recently some of the women refused to work until told that further representations would be made on their behalf; and whether he will take steps to grant an immediate increase of wages to the whole of the women and girls in these classes.

The remuneration of the female staff of the Stamping Department at Somerset House has recently been revised, and I have no reason to think that the staff is dissatisfied with the present conditions.

Questions

Board of Invention and Research

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty who are the persons composing the Board for considering inventions; whether any recent additions have been made to its membership; and whether the Admiralty is in communication with the Board of Inventions in the United States of America in regard to providing an antidote to submarine warfare?

The Board of Invention and Research comprises—

(1) A Central Committee, consisting of: ex-officio associated members.

(2) A Consulting Panel of fourteen members, namely:

Mr. Threlfall and Dr. Dugald Clerk are the most recent additions to the Consulting Panel, and the constitution of the Sub-Committees is altered from time to time as found desirable. Steps have already been taken in regard to the matter referred to in the last part of the question, but it is not advisable to state them in detail.

Government Contracts (Fairwages Clause)

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the Admiralty Order of 31st March, 1917, claiming priority for Government work in the manufacture of flax, hemp, and jute goods, he will take steps to ensure that in the case of the male and female workers in the Roan Spinning Company, Coal-island, county Tyrone, the Fair-Wages Clause is enforced, and the employers compelled to pay the workers the rate of wages fixed by the Committee on Production on 22nd March, 1917, and which is paid by all other firms in the district with the exception of the firm referred to?

The firm in question are not executing any Admiralty contracts, or, so far as is known, any work for Admiralty contractors. The Order of 31st March, issued on the initiative of the War Office, was made with a view to ensuring priority for Government work in factories making flax, hemp, or jute goods. It does not enable the Admiralty to intervene for the purpose of enforcing the Fair-Wages Clause in the absence of any contract between the firm and the Admiralty. But I need not assure my hon. Friend that if any such contract is entered into it will contain the Fair-Wages Clause, and it will be the duty of the Admiralty to see that it is respected.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the male and female workers in the Roan Spinning Company, Limited, Coalisland, county Tyrone have gone on strike, about 150 being affected, in consequence of the refusal of this firm to pay the wages fixed by the Committee on Production on 22nd March last; whether these workers are engaged upon work for the Government and for which the Government has claimed priority; whether this is the only firm in Ulster which has refused to be bound by the Fair-Wages Clause or to grant its employés the official standard wage; and whether he will take immediate steps to compel the company to do justice to its employés in this matter and so put an end to the strike?

I understand that there is a strike of workpeople employed by this firm in connection with an application for an advance of wages. The Chief Industrial Commissioner is in communication with the firm. The question of whether the firm holds, directly or indirectly, any Government contracts, and, if so, whether there is failure on their part to observe the Fair-Wages Clause, is a matter for the Contracting Departments.

National School Teachers Residence (Ireland) Act

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he is aware that the latest Report of the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland states that in a large percentage of cases the teachers are as yet unprovided with suitable residences, and, having regard to the fact that the National School Teachers' Residence (Ireland) Act came into operation in the year 1875, can he state the cause of the delay in providing such residences; and whether any and, if so, what steps are being taken to expedite the operation of the Act in this respect?

The Report of the Commissioners of National Education contains a paragraph to the effect stated. Applications for loans and grants for teachers' residences are made by the managers of the schools concerned and, in the absence of such an application, no step could be taken by the Commissioners towards providing a residence in connection with a national school. Applications are in normal times considered by the Commissioners and, where the necessary conditions are fulfilled, referred to the Board of Works for action. The Board of Works announced in October, 1915, that owing to the financial conditions arising from the War no further loans could be made under the provisions of the Act for the present.

Corn Production Bill

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if, under the Corn Production Bill, Part IV., Clause 7, the Board of Agriculture can go in on the land of a farmer who may have spent years of thought and labour in working out a system of farming suitable to his own farm and compel him to abandon that system, however suitable to the land and remunerative to himself and the community though it be, and adopt their system; and is there no appeal for the farmer against the order of the Board of Agriculture?

The statement in the question as to the operation of Part IV. of the Corn Production Bill is substantially correct as regards Great Britain, but under Clause 12 (2) of the Bill the application of Part IV. to Ireland is subject to such modifications as the Lord Lieutenant may direct for the purpose of adapting its provisions to any scheme of tillage in force, and to any special conditions of land tenure in Ireland. Additional safeguards are under consideration.

Reconstruction Committee

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that dissatisfaction exists regarding the women representatives on the Reconstruction Committee, as one is a well-known Socialist and the other a leading pacifist; and whether, as these women do not represent the great majority of women in the country, he is prepared to meet this complaint by adding other more representative women to the Committee?

The Prime Minister is considering the advisability of adding to the number of women upon the Committee.

May I ask, as to the well-known Socialist, on what grounds she was selected, and by whom she was appointed?

I do not know on what grounds she was appointed, but I presume it was thought that she would serve a useful purpose.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a Socialist may have as deep an interest in this country as anybody else?

Coal Shortage

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government intend to promote the necessary legislation which will enable local authorities to obtain a stock of coal in order to supply the poor people in their areas next winter; and is he aware that, owing to the shortage of coal obtainable by the local merchants recently, the Bexley Urban District Council had to sell 40 tons of coal, required for their electricity generating works, to the merchants in order to meet the grave difficulty which has arisen?

The Prime Minister has asked me to answer this question. While the action of local authorities, who have come to the assistance of coal merchants in an emergency is to be commended, the question as to how far it is desirable that they should undertake a definite responsibility for the supply of coal is at present the subject of inquiry by the Controller of Coal Mines, who proposes to discuss it with the Local Government Board at a later stage.

Is there a chance of a Report from this Committee shortly? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that coal was sold in the neighbourhood at from 2s. 6d. to 2s. 9d. per cwt., that the defence of the London Coal Committee was that the merchants had paid 39s. to 42s. per ton? The people cannot go through another winter in the same way.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that coal in the Isle of Wight is fetching nearly 60s. per ton, that prices of about that amount have been charged for some time, and that no effective measures have been taken by the Coal Controller?

I was not aware of either of those two cases, but I will call the attention of the Controller of Mines to the matter. There is under consideration the whole question of the distribution of coal in the coming winter, and I hope there will be no reason to complain.

The hon. Gentleman will recember that this has been going on for several months.

Education, Ireland (State Grants)

asked the Prime Minister if he will state when he proposes to give an opportunity for discussing the needs of Irish education, more especially the additional State Grants which Ireland is entitled to receive for primary and secondary education on the basis of Grants given to England and Scotland?

I cannot add anything to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Dublin University on 2nd April.

Are the parents of Irish children to have any opportunity of expressing their views as to the scheme and framework which would be suitable for Ireland?

There will be an opportunity of raising that question in the Irish Estimates.

Will there be any special educational statement made by the Chief Secretary?

Secret Session (Procedure)

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the procedure adopted for going into Secret Session precludes debate upon the Motion; and will he take steps to assure that such opportunity will be provided in the event of a Secret Session again being proposed?

The procedure of last Thursday was the same as that adopted on the previous occasion, and I do not think that the general sense of the House would support the hon. Member's proposal.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take the opinion of Members who are not hypnotised by the Front Bench either retrospectively or prospectively?

Could not an hon. Member who does not intend to be present at a Secret Session or to take part in it be given an opportunity of stating his reasons why?

Censorship Regulations

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the action of the United States Senate as to censorship, he will take steps to make the censorship Regulations here less stringent?

I can only refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to the question put to me on the 26th April last by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy Burghs, to which I have nothing to add.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the matter has been before the Congress of the United States, and has that no influence whatever on what the Government do here?

Excess Profits Tax

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state how many parties, controlled or uncontrolled, companies, or individuals made payment of Excess Profits Tax or Munitions Levy last year; what proportion of them held Government contracts for war supplies; and whether a deduction of 6d. per £ on such Government payments or the proposed increase in the new merged tax from 60 per cent. to 80 per cent. represents the greater benefit to the Exchequer?

This information is not available, and I am precluded from obtaining it by the immense expenditure of time and labour which the preparation of the necessary data would involve.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether recent tax returns indicate that brewers have been earning excess profits; if so, to what extent; and what Excess Tax has been paid by them?

As I have already explained to my hon. Friend, no information of this kind is available.

Do not the ordinary Income Tax Returns afford some information on points such as this?

No. I made inquiry, and there is no information of that kind available at present. It would have to be searched for.

Education Expenditure (United Kingdom)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will grant a Return showing the amount provided from the Imperial Exchequer for Education in England and Wales, Scotland, and Ireland, respectively, for each of the financial years beginning from 1902 to the present, the Return to include the amounts provided for all branches of education: university, intermediate, secondary, primary, and technical education?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will grant a Return showing the unexpended balances of the Board of Education in England and Wales, the Scottish University Department, and the Commissioners of National Education, Ireland, respectively, for each of the financial years from 1897 to the present, the Return to show also the balance surrendered in each case each year to the Treasury.

The amounts of the Grants provided annually for educational services out of the balances unexpended at the end of each financial year (which are surrendered to the Exchequer) can be obtained by reference to the Estimates and Appropriation Accounts, respectively, presented to Parliament, and I do not think the value of a special Return would be sufficient to justify the labour and expense involved.

Super-Tax Assessment

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether by receiving fees free of Income Tax the persons receiving such fees escape Super-tax on the additional remuneration they thus receive; and, if so, what action the Government propose to take to amend this inequity in Income Tax practice?

In computing total income for the purposes of assessment to Super-tax for any year, income from directors' fees is required to be taken at the amount of the Income Tax assessment for the preceding year. The liability to Income Tax falls to be computed by reference to the gross amount of the remuneration to which the director concerned is entitled.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the fact that, for the purposes of Super-tax and in computing total income for the purposes of exemption, abatement, reduced rate of Income Tax on earned or unearned income, etc., the income derived from dividends on the 4 per cent. free of Income Tax War Loan, 1929–42, is to be treated as if the amount received represented the net income after deduction of Income Tax at the full normal rate and that there is no title to repayment of Income Tax in respect of such untaxed dividends, he will make the same Regulations in the present Finance Act in respect to directors' fees and other emoluments paid free of Income Tax as applies to the 4 per cent. War Loan for computation of total income?

From the answer I have just given to the other question asked by my hon. Friend on this subject, he will see that no such Regulations as he suggests are required.

Dog Licences

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, when introducing legislation for the taxation of dogs, he will consider the advisability of imposing a double tax on bitches, with a view to decreasing the number of dogs in the country as well as of improving the breed of those that remain?

The suggestion shall be considered, but I am afraid the proposal would complicate the machinery of administration, which I am anxious to avoid as far as possible.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that an extra tax of this sort would limit the bitches kept to those of a good breed.

National School Teachers, Ireland (War Bonus)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether Post Office officials are now receiving war bonuses on salaries that reach £250 per annum; whether he is aware that Irish teachers receiving £3 per week are debarred from receiving any war bonus; and whether he will again consider the whole matter?

My right hon. Friend is in communication with the Chief Secretary on this matter.

Aliens (Payments)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state the names of all royal or titled persons of German birth who are at present receiving pensions or any kind of payment derived ultimately from the British taxpayer, the amount of payment in each case, and the statement of the services rendered in consideration of such payment; and whether any redistribution of this money is contemplated in view of the hardships endured by the families of soldiers killed at the front?

Evicted Tenants (Re-Instatement)

asked the Chief Secretary if he will state why the Estates Commissioners gave as an excuse for doing nothing for Mrs. Malone, Dingle, that she had been evicted on title; and will they explain what forces have operated to induce them to do nothing for her although recognised as an evicted tenant entitled to a holding ten years ago?

As the hon. Member has already been informed, the Estates Commissioners endeavoured to acquire lands on which they could provide Mrs. Malone with a holding, but they were unable to do so as they have no available land in the county.

Registration

asked the Chief Secretary if it is the intention of the Government to transfer the duty of preparing the register of Parliamentary and local government electors from the secretaries of county councils and clerks of borough and urban councils; and, seeing that this will add a further burden to the rates and inflict injury and injustice on officials to whom the duty is at present ordained by law, and by which their salaries are to a great extent made up, will he take steps to secure that no transfer of this duty takes place?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave on Wednesday last to a similar question by the hon. Member for the Harbour Division of Dublin.

Deportees from Ireland

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland the circumstances under which Senmas Doherty, Padraic O'Maille, Sean O'Murthuile, Dr. M'Cartan, and Darrel Figgis, deportees from Ireland and interned at Fairford, were enabled to travel to Ireland in order to take part in political work in South Longford; were they given the ordinary leave and railway pass that until recently has been accorded to the conscientious objector in Great Britain; and have they now returned to their place of internment?

The persons named were not enabled to travel to Ireland by His Majesty's Government. They are, I am informed, still absent from their places of internment.

Their present offence is leaving without permission the place in which they were directed to reside.

Countess Marckiewicz

asked the Chief Secretary whether, in view of the fact that prison conditions press more heavily on the Countess Marckiewicz than on most prisoners on account of the deprivation of all companionship, he will now advise her release?

The duty of advising as to the exercise of the prerogative in cases such as this rests with the Home Secretary.

Wounded British Soldiers (Channel Crossing)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if wounded British soldiers crossing between France and England on the 28th of last month in a British ship had to pass the night on the floor of the boat, while wounded German soldiers in the same ward and the same ship were given beds?

I understand that on the occasion to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers, the ship was carrying patients in excess of the berth accommodation. Among several hundred British patients there were twenty Germans. All of these latter were seriously wounded, and were cot cases. All British cot cases were given cots, but under the circumstances some slightly wounded British cases were given beds on the floor.

I regret that the necessity should have arisen, but I cannot see what else could have been done.

Timber Supplies

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the rise in the price of timber due to War conditions; and whether he will consider the advisability of fixing maximum prices for various grades of timber, as has been done in the case of certain other commodities?

It is not proposed to fix maximum prices for home-grown timber at present.

War Bonus

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if, at the present time the Royal Engineers are employing in the Isle of Wight carpenters at only 9d. per hour and labourers at 7d. per hour and no war bonus; if at shipbuilding and aeroplane works in the Isle of Wight doing Government work carpenters are paid 11d. per hour and labourers 8d. per hour and also a weekly bonus of 5s., which is to be increased this month to 7s. per week; and, if so, why the War Office underpay these men and give them no war bonus?

The proper comparison of the wages of men employed under the Royal Engineers is with those of workmen of the building trades, not with those of shipbuilding and engineering trades. So far as my inquiries have yet gone, the men are not being underpaid, judged by this standard, but I am having the point examined.

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether the inquiry promised to be made into the question of a war bonus for pensioned widows of soldiers killed in the South African War has been made; and whether he can say what decision has been arrived at?

I am not yet in a position to deal with the general question of the pensions to men disabled, and to the widows of men deceased in consequence of previous wars, which is involved by the special cases referred to by the hon. Member, but I hope to be able to do so before long.

Chamber of Commerce (Belfast)

The following Question stood on the Paper in the name of Mr. DEVLIN:

83. To ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that a communication has been addressed by the Belfast Chamber of Commerce to the Secretary of the Army Council with reference to the Order of the Council, dated 24th April, 1917, prohibiting the manufacture of cases and crates and the use of new cases and crates for the packing of goods listed in Schedule A attached to the Order; whether he is aware that the in- clusion in this schedule of linen piece-goods and handkerchiefs in paper parcels is calculated to inflict injury upon that section of the Irish linen industry engaged in the manufacture and export of the finer classes of cambric, linen, and damask; whether he is aware that while unbleached linens can be packed in bales without much risk to the fabric, the packing of fine bleached linen otherwise than in cases can only result in damage to the goods, and consequent loss to the trader; whether he is aware that the object of the Order is understood and the necessity for a restricted use of wood is appreciated, but that, as it has been thought proper to include in Schedule B such goods as muslins, lawns, and voiles (valued at over 6d. per square yard), fine embroidered white dhooties, and mercerised goods (silk-finished), it is most desirable that bleached and dyed linen, bleached and dyed cambric, and bleached linen damask (piece-goods, cloths, and napkins) should be included in the same schedule; whether he is aware, as regards linen handkerchiefs in paper parcels, of the extent of the export trade in these goods to remote destinations and to countries where heavy duty is charged on cartons; and whether, seeing that unless these handkerchiefs are allowed to be cased in wood the trade therein will be gravely injured, he will take steps to see that linen handkerchiefs in paper parcels will also be included in Schedule B?

I have received a partial answer to my question. Can the hon. Gentleman say when he will be in a position to give me further information?

Can the hon. Gentleman say as a matter of fact that bleached and dyed cambric are amongst the articles that may be packed in cases?

Yes, Sir. That is the tenor of the answer which I have given so far to my hon. Friend and the hon. Gentleman the Member for West Belfast.

Palestinian Jews

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Government have any information with regard to a proclamation supposed to be issued by the Turkish authorities indicating their intention to expropriate or massacre the Jews now living in Palestine; and, if so, whether it is possible for the Allied Governments to take any steps in the matter?

I have no information beyond what has already appeared in the Press. The Allied Governments would do all in their power to avert such a calamity, but it is difficult to see what effective measures are open to them in the sense desired.

Lead (Prices)

asked the Minister of Munitions whether orders have been issued whereby the price of scrap or re-melted lead sold by plumbers to manufacturers has been fixed at £26 per ton, while the price of manufactured sheet lead sold by manufacturers to plumbers has been fixed at £39 10s. per ton; whether this difference is greatly in excess of the difference which existed before the issue of the orders; on what evidence were the prices fixed; do they correspond with the ascertained cost of manufacture; and were the plumbers given an opportunity of making representations before the price was fixed?

The prices of scrap or re-melted lead and of manufactured lead have been fixed at £26 per ton and £39 10s. per ton as stated. The difference between these figures is not greatly in excess of the difference which !existed before the issue of the Order. In fact, the increase in the difference does not exceed £1 per ton. The prices for the various forms of lead were fixed by reference to the market price of virgin lead, and in fixing them regard was had to the known costs of manufacture to the normal exchange value of lead scrap, and to the increased costs of delivery and manufacture due to war conditions. On these points expert advice was obtained, but the plumbers, as such, were not consulted.

In reference to the statement that the difference is not more than £1 per ton, if the hon. Gentleman is satisfied that the difference is greater than £1 per ton will he open the question again?

I would ask my hon. Friend to look at the answer. I did not say that the difference was not more than £1. What I said was that the increase in the difference does not exceed £1 per ton.

If the hon. Gentleman is satisfied that the increase in the difference is more than £1 per ton, will he reopen the subject?

I shall certainly look into and consider any information my hon. Friend gives me.

Plymouth Tolls (Soldiers and Sailors)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that within Plymouth garrison there are seven bridges, toll-gates, or ferries over, through, or on which sailors or soldiers proceeding from their various ships, barracks, or camps must pass in order to get into Plymouth or Devonport, and that at each of these a toll is exacted varying from ½d. to 1d.; and, in view of the fact that the sailors are often Allies and many of the soldiers are from our overseas forces, whilst the rest of both sailors and soldiers have no interest in Plymouth beyond being quartered there during the War for a period of their service, whether he will take immediate steps to prevent these charges being levied on sailors and soldiers during the period of the War?

I am having inquiries made into this matter, and will let my hon. Friend know the result as soon as possible.

Will the hon. Gentleman make inquiries as soon as possible, as this grievance is felt very much by our men there?

Russia and Japan

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to an interview which has appeared in a Moscow newspaper, and in which the Italian Consul-General there is represented as having said that if Russia relaxed her military effort in the present War she would be threatened by serious danger from Japan, and that, according to a Treaty concluded by the Allied Powers, Japan would have the right to occupy all Siberia as far as the Ural Mountains; and whether His Majesty's Government are prepared to make any statement on the subject?

The answer to the first part is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, I understand that both the Italian Consul-General at Moscow and the Japanese Consul-General have denied the reported interview. It is scarcely necessary to add that no such Treaty has ever been contemplated.

Admiralty Appointments

Statement by Sir E. Carson

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is in a position to state whether any changes have been made at the Admiralty, and, if so, what is the nature of such changes?

The King has been pleased to approve of the following appointments: Admiral Sir John R. Jellicoe, G.C.B., O.M., G.C.V.O., the present First Sea Lord, to have the additional title of Chief of the Naval Staff.

Vice-Admiral Sir Henry F. Oliver, K.C.B., M.V.O., the present Chief of the Staff, to become an additional member of the Board of Admiralty, with the title of Deputy-Chief of the Naval Staff.

Rear-Admiral Alexander L. Duff, C.B., at present in charge of the Anti-Submarine Division of the War Staff, to become an additional member of the Board of Admiralty, with the title of Assistant Chief of the Naval Staff.

Rear-Admiral Lionel Halsey, C.B., C.M.,G., the present Fourth Sea Lord, to become Third Sea Lord, in succession to Rear-Admiral Frederick C. T. Tudor, C.B., who will be appointed Commander-in-Chief of the China Station in due course.

Sir Eric Geddes to become an additional member of the Board of Admiralty, with the title of Controller, and with the honorary and temporary rank of Vice-Admiral.

Rear-Admiral Hugh H. D. Tothill, C.B., to become Fourth Sea Lord, in succession to Rear-Admiral Halsey.

The changes that have been made in the Admiralty organisation have a twofold object. The first is to free the First Sea Lord and the heads of the Naval Staff so far as possible from administrative work, in order that they may concentrate their attention on the important issues relating to the naval conduct of the War. At the same time the process of strengthening the Naval Staff by the addition of officers transferred from the active sea service is being continued.

The second object is to strengthen the Shipbuilding and Production Departments of the Admiralty, by providing an organisation comparable to that which has supplied the Army with munitions. Further, it is intended to develop and utilise to the best advantage the whole of the shipbuilding resources of the country, and so far as possible to concentrate the organisation under one authority. Sir Eric Geddes has been chosen for this position, and he will be responsible for fulfilling the shipbuilding requirements of the Admiralty, War Office, and Ministry of Shipping, so far as possible by manufacture or purchase, whether at home or abroad. For this purpose the Staffs of the three Departments that relate to these requirements will be placed under his control.

As the duties for which Sir Eric Geddes will be responsible at the Admiralty will include not only shipbuilding, but also the production of armaments and munitions, it is necessary that his touch with the Admiralty should be close and intimate, and for this reason he has been appointed a member of the Board of Admiralty. He will also be associated with the Ministry of Shipping as a member of the Shipping Control Committee.

Will the House have an opportunity of discussing these changes when we have fully digested them?

May I ask whether the duty of superintending or supervising merchant shipbuilding will now be transferred from the Ministry of Shipping to the Board of Admiralty, and that the Ministry of Shipping will have no further responsibility in the matter?

May I put it in another form? In Matters appertaining to, merchant shipbuilding, will it be the Controller of Shipping or his representative here who will be answerable for the merchant shipbuilding problem, or will it be the First Lord himself?

Is there so great a dearth of able men that Sir Eric Geddes has had to be chosen for every new post that is created?

Sir Eric Geddes has just fulfilled some most important work in France in the most successful way, and, as his services were available, we were thankful to have them.

Question

British Trade Bank

asked the Leader of the House whether it is the case that the Board of Trade statement with regard to the British Trade Bank is postponed from to-morrow till later in the week; and, if that is so, whether he will give an undertaking to the House that not only the charter but "all the necessary documents, including the deed of settlement, will be issued to Members in full time for the Debate that takes place?

Before my right hon. Friend answers, will he be kind enough also to say in what form the question will be brought before the House, and whether it will be open to discussion?

The question can be discussed on the Board of Trade Vote, and, of course, it will be open to discussion to any Member. I shall see that everything that can possibly be put before the House will be put before the House.

Orders of the Day

Consolidated Fund (No. 3) Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

I rise for the purpose of asking a few questions respecting the administration of the War Office in relation to our soldiers and their dependants. I am not raising the question in any faultfinding manner, because I have received too much courtesy from the hon. Gentleman on the Front Bench representing the War Office to do anything of the kind; but I do ask that there should be some consideration given to two or three questions which I venture to raise. The first to which I want to call attention is the question of the inequality of leave. This raises a great deal of dissatisfaction, and leads to a spirit of unrest. I am speaking now specially in view of the knowledge that I possess from the many letters that I receive. It is a question I have raised on several occasions. It appears that men for twelve months, eighteen months, and some for more than two years, have never had any leave whatever. This is very much felt, especially in the home, because I should like the hon. Gentleman to realise that the sustained absence of married men is really a great moral question, and it is having two effects. It is having the effect of producing on the minds of women a feeling that the War Office keeps certain men until really they may never return; and, in the next place, the soldiers are feeling that they are losing all control over their homes, and to that extent the soldier and the home are being largely divorced.

I ask that the hon. Gentleman should see if possible, without compromising the strictness of military control, that there should be some order whereby those who have been out at the front for a very long time should have some form of priority of leave. Another point I wish to raise is connected with the Army Medical Board in reference to the passing of certain men, thus destroying their legal rights. That is to say, if a man has compensation, the local doctors having passed him as unable to go to his ordinary work, the medical board examine him and pass him as being physically fit. This is putting into the Army the man whom the doctors representing the insurance companies declare is not fit, and you thus destroy the whole of his legal rights, because immediately you pass him into the Army he ceases to be the recipient of his insurance. I will give a case to illustrate my point. Take a man who is receiving the full compensation of 17s. a week, and who has paid right up to the time until he was called up. As soon as he is called up his compensation immediately ceases. I think this is rather a serious thing. You take this man whom the doctors have declared physically unfit, and by severe training you smash him up and send him back, and then how does he stand in relation to the insurance? Is there no means after you have determined to take that man by which you may call upon the insurance companies to make a fair deal with the man in the form of a lump sum, in order that he may feel that he has not been unjustly deprived of what the law has given him? So far as my experience is concerned, I am certain that the Regulations are liberally interpreted by the War Office, but I am raising this question in order that the hon. Gentleman may look thoroughly into the matter. I have raised this point before by questions, but there has been no adequate reply. These are the things that lead to unrest in our trade unions, and advantage is taken of it when the difficulty might, by a little reason, be rectified.

Another question I wish to raise is that of the power of the military representatives on the local tribunals. To be a member of a local tribunal is a very unpleasant position. I agree with the hon. Gentleman as to the manner in which they have carried out their duties, but there are several tribunals which have refused to act, because after giving full consideration to certain cases, and acting with full local knowledge, their decisions have been interfered with, and the reply which the local tribunals have received is that these things have been done under instructions. I should like to knew what those instructions are. Another case I wish to raise is this: If a man enlists for a soldier, and he has two or more sons in the Army, he does not receive the same consideration as the family whose sons go to the front and whose father remains at home. I will take an instance. A father enlists with his two sons. The effect is that there is a dependant's allowance of 12s. 6d. for the father, and two allotments of 3s. 6d. each for the sons, making 19s. 6d. in all. If that father remained at home and sent his two sons, he could have had a possible allowance varying from 15s. to 25s. If the father remained at home, and his two boys were unfortunately killed, there would be a dependency allowance and a pension following.

In the case of the father who comes home, and his two sons are knocked out, there is a clean cut off of the allotments, and no dependent allowance follows. Mothers and fathers compare these things, and consequently there is a feeling of injustice. I have had several of these cases, and I think it is only right that the hon. Gentleman should see if something cannot be done in this matter to relieve these people of the hardship which they are undergoing, and it should also be remembered that the larger the number in the Army the larger the hardship. I think some means should be taken to see if the Regulations cannot be altered. Under the new Royal Warrant in relation to pensions one of these wrongs has been rectified. Whilst you paid nothing to the apprentice when called upon to serve, you are considering the advisability of doing so after awarding something to parents of such an apprentice if he falls in battle. I ask that the same principle should be applied to those sons whose fathers are fighting, so that their parents may feel there is a full acknowledgment all round. I want to express my indebtedness to the hon. Gentleman for the courtesy with which he has met the various questions I have raised, and the letters I have received, showing a general disposition on the part of the War Office to generously interpret the rules. I would like to urge that leave should be given to those who have been away for a long time, and that legal rights should not be destroyed in cases of compensation.

4.0 P.M.

I would like to ask one or two questions upon the financial point which arose when we were discussing the Vote of Credit. One point is the increase in the Estimate of the expenditure. My right hon. Friend informed us only about ten days or a fortnight ago that the daily expenditure would be about £5,500,000, but when the Vote of Credit was introduced he informed us that the expenditure was about £7,500,000, or, in his own words, an increase of about £2,000,000. The House will remember that when we met here at the beginning of the Session we had a Vote of Credit, and within a very short time we had a Supplementary Vote of Credit, so that this is the second occasion on which the Estimates of the Treasury have proved to be inaccurate. I admit that it is extremely difficult to form an accurate estimate of the daily expenditure during the War, but I cannot conceal the fact that all through the War the Estimate has always been less than the actual expenditure, and during the last few months we have had two very striking instances, where within a few days the Estimate has been proved to be wrong by very large sums. My right hon. Friend gave this explanation. He said that there were two causes which had tended to the large increase of £2,000,000. One was that sums which it has been anticipated would be received on the credit side had not been received, while the expenditure had been obliged to be incurred.

That really is only a question of book-keeping, and I do not think it is very important. That, according to my right hon. Friend, amounted to £850,000. We now come to the increase of £1,000,000 every day for thirty-five days, representing £35,000,000. That, my right hon. Friend said, was owing to the fact that the amounts advanced to the Allies had been larger than was anticipated. He then went on to say:

Perhaps I can explain it. When the Budget was framed we knew that America was our Ally, and we anticipated that we should get great help from them, perhaps rather in the way of financial assistance for our Allies than for ourselves. In framing our Estimate as to our advances to the Allies we put in what we thought we might reasonably hope would come from America. It was difficult to say what that would be, but we assumed that the total advance to the Allies, on account of America having come in, would not be more than £400,000,000. But for American intervention we should have put in a much larger sum. We have allowed for this help during the whole period, but up to the time that I was then reviewing that help had not come, and so far as the past was concerned we had had an expenditure of £1,000,000 per day more than we had reason to hope we should have for the rest of the year. My right hon. Friend pointed out that so far as this £35,000,000 was concerned it had gone. I hope even that will not prove to be the case, because I think some of the advances which the American Government are making to the Allies will be utilised by them in repaying sums which we have paid on their account.

I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for the explanation. It appears that America has not yet given that money which it is hoped they will do.

When America does give it matters will be right. That is quite satisfactory, and I am very glad that I have been able to obtain the explanation. I would like to raise another point. It is very necessary that we should have these Estimates framed as accurately as possible, and it does seem to me that it is almost impossible for my right hon. Friend to exercise that care and supervision over the framing of Estimates and over the general financial business of the country as long as he is also in the position of having to lead the House. I remember when Mr. Gladstone was Leader of the House he became also Chancellor of the Exchequer, and considerable discussion arose as to whether it was possible to do the two offices. In those days the work of leading the House and the work of the Chancellor of the Exchequer were far less than they are now, and therefore I maintain it is quite impossible for any Member of the Government, however talented and however devoted he is to his duties, to manage at the same time two such important and onerous offices. In this particular case we are also deprived of the assistance of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury I think that assistance is very important.

There is a Motion that there should be a Committee to inquire into these things. Something will have to be done, and the first thing that ought to be done is to restore to this House the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. I believe a secretary has been appointed. I have not the pleasure of his acquaintance, but I do not doubt that he is a very capable man. The two appointments of Financial Secretary and accountant ought to be reversed. The accountant should be the adviser outside the House, under and subject to the Financial Secretary who should be inside the House. Now we have as a Financial Secretary an accountant who is without any Parliamentary experience, and the hon. Member who represents the Treasury in the House is under him. That, surely, is quite wrong. The hon. Gentleman who represents the Treasury has done extremely well, but he is handicapped by not being in supreme command. You cannot carry on an undertaking unless you have got authority. You may not know everything. The director of a big undertaking may not know every item and detail of that undertaking, but he has experts under him, and he is the head authority. My hon. Friend should be the head authority, and this gentleman, who may be a great expert in his particular department, should be under him. How can we criticise my hon. Friend in all fairness when we know that he is not responsible and has not got the authority? Ever since I have had the honour of being a Member of this House the Financial Secretary to the Treasury has been considered the most important man outside the Cabinet. It was always considered that he had almost a first claim to a place in the Cabinet. Therefore, to appoint a person to fill that post who knows nothing whatever about Parliamentary procedure. and to complicate it by not making him even a Member of the House, and then to put someone in the House in a subordinate position under him, is not the best way to carry on the business of the country or to maintain Parliamentary control over the expenditure of the Treasury. Our expenditure is rising. We have now got, even although it is temporary, to £7,500,000 per day, and it is the duty of the House of Commons to recognise the function for which it was originally instituted, namely, the control of expenditure. There must be some change made in order to do that, either by the appointment of a Financial Secretary in this House with experience of the House and responsible to the House, or by the appointment of a Committee with some power to investigate and control this ever rising and enormous expenditure.

I want to obtain from my right hon. Friend a statement, which may go forth to the world, that this continued action of the Germans, in spite of our previous declaration, in sinking our hospital ships will not be allowed to go unpunished. So long as the 31st January last they announced to the whole world that they intended to torpedo hospital ships. I need not say that prior to that time they had indulged in every conceivable form of barbarity, except that they had not touched our hospital ships. They then made a full and open announcement to this effect: ships containing wounded soldiers. Accordingly this statement was sent out, and for a time no ship was torpedoed, but on the 25th March the "Asturias," a ship of 12,000 tons, carrying wounded, and afterwards the "Glasgow," also carrying wounded, were torpedoed, and the Government were then faced with the German declaration and their own declaration of punishment. We know from a statement by Lord Curzon in another place that the Government did not do this hurriedly. They considered it, and they put it before the War Council. They put the whole question before the Imperial War Council, calling into consultation with them the representatives of our great Colonies who were sent here for that very purpose. The result of the consultation, which took place on 12th April, was that a definite reprisal took place on 14th April by the bombardment of the town of Freiburg. Not only was the town bombarded, but the aeroplanes which carried the bombs also carried some leaflets, which they distributed over that town in Germany, informing the German people that this was not merely a wanton act, but was a definite and distinct reprisal in consequence of the action of the German Government in torpedoing our English hospital ships.

I put a question to my right hon. Friend a few days ago as to whether it was not the case that, since the reprisal on Freiburg, two hospital ships had been torpedoed, and I also added that an attack had been made on the civilians of London by a German aeroplane, by which one at least, if not more, had been murdered. My own opinion was that the sending over of an aeroplane for no possible military purpose whatever, but with the definite and distinct intention of slaughtering harmless civilians in this great area of London—because it is almost impossible to avoid hitting some civilian if you drop a bomb over such an enormous area as London—would have been sufficient to have justified another reprisal raid. Apart from that, there have been two definite cases of two hospital ships being torpedoed since the declaration of His Majesty's Government. The question I want to ask my right hon. Friend, the Leader of the House, is whether the Government intend to abide by their decision to exact reparation and to carry out reprisals on the Germans for this grave breach, not merely of The Hague Convention, but of the decencies of civilised warfare? If they do not do this, if they are content with the one reprisal and allow two more hospital ships to be torpedoed without any action on their part, I cannot help feeling that from this time onward their word will have no effect whatever upon the German Government.

Only yesterday I received further information on a matter which proves clearly that it requires a reprisal on our part. I do not know whether the House is yet aware of it. I am putting a question to the Under-Secretary of State for War one day this week as to whether it is not a fact that on the Germanic-Russian borders considerable numbers of our men are placed in the German trenches under fire, working there for twelve hours at a time either by day or by night. The bulk of them, I believe, were men who were taken after the unfortunate Antwerp expedition. They were men of the Royal Naval Division. I believe there are 100 men and non-commissioned officers at one place, and 450 soldiers and 50 sailors at another place on the Germanic-Russian border. If these things are done and these men are definitely informed by the German Government that they are going to be put there in order that they shall be held, so to speak, as hostages against the English Government, are we going to allow our men, against all rules of warfare as it has been conducted hitherto, to be deliberately put to work in the German trenches, not merely within the sound, but within reach of the Russian shells? A mere protest to the German Government is no good whatever. We have been fighting for two and a half years. Protest after protest has been made, and the British Government has said to the world "We are not going to exact reprisals on innocent women and children, we are not seeking reparation, but we are seeking to prevent the German Government from repeating these acts." It is not merely punishment in the way that it is ordinarily understood to prevent crime, it is designed to prevent the German Government from committing crime by giving them definite knowledge that punishment will be swift, certain and severe.

Nobody would be more delighted than I that they should be dropped on their headquarters, if we can manage it. The Government, after thinking the whole question over, and after consulting the French and our Colonial representatives, have decided that they are going to take steps, which many of us have urged upon them for a long time, in order to exact punishment for this action. I ask if the Government has considered these two recent cases, and if they will carry out to the hilt their determination to punish the Germans for the great acts of cruelty they have perpetrated?

I do not desire to follow the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Joynson-Hicks) in the subject he has just raised, except to enter the strongest protest against the view he has put before the House. If it were a question of punishing the Germans who committed the crimes, nobody would be more prepared to punish them severely than I should, but to punish the wrong people will not do us any good. We shall not stop a crime by committing crime ourselves. Let us keep our hands clean and give no excuse for crime so far as we are concerned. I hope the House will maintain the attitude—I believe the country does very strongly—that our hands should remain clean at every stage up to the end of this War. I desire to pursue the point raised by the right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) and to enter my protest against the state of things which exist. In anything that I may say I do not make any personal remark in regard to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who we know is very much occupied. We know how impossible it is for him to go into the details of all these matters. It is rather a question of the system than of finding fault with anything for which the right hon. Gentleman himself is responsible. Everybody felt gravely concerned when it became necessary, for the second time, to confess that the estimate of the Vote of Credit was entirely wrong and when it had to be supplemented not by a fraction, but by a very large amount. That alarm is very much increased by the fact that this is the second occasion within a very short period when it has been found necessary to do this. On the previous occasion, when we had to pass a Supplementary Vote of Credit for £60,000,000 to meet the finance of the preceding year, the explanation given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was that it was due to two reasons, one being that that certain large payments fell to be made in the last financial year instead of in the succeeding year, which is the present financial year. We recognise the fairness of that statement, which was to some extent but not altogether an explanation. At any rate, we had the hope that in the succeeding period for which we were taking a Vote of Credit we should have a lessened expenditure. Now we find that on the first Vote of Credit for the present year exactly the same thing has occurred. Notwithstanding large payments having been anticipated by payments in the past financial year, we have again a very large excess occurring on the first Vote of Credit this year.

It is a curious thing that between these two Votes we have had a third Estimate, namely, that on the Budget. The first Estimate was for an expenditure of £5,500,000 a day. In the last two months of the last financial year that rate was very much exceeded. Again, a few days after the Budget statement, the rate of expenditure has increased by £2,500,000 a day. We naturally feel great concern over this matter of supreme importance. The forecast of the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought certainly to be received as accurate, careful and to be relied upon—at any rate until some great change has taken place. We have been quite unable to rely upon these successive estimates. We all recollect that when the new system was started grave concern was expressed that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury was not to be in this House. It was then predicted that the House was likely to lose its control, because the House of Commons maintains its control through the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. I am very much afraid that that prediction has come true. The right hon. Gentleman has said more than once during the course of the War that merely because arrangements are novel it should not lead us to reject them, that we must test them by experience, and that the test was whether they had proved successful or unsuccessful. Of course, the House of Commons does not know the details of expenditure. Those are withdrawn from us. The time has come when we ought to know more about the expenditure. We know that in the first rush of the War everything was very much confused, but we have had time to recover from that confusion. In the middle of 1915 I urged that our financial control of expenditure should be properly organised. I urged that we should extend our financial system of control just as an ordinary business would, namely, that as it increased its financial control should increase. I do not see why we should not have a system under which we should have an accountancy department, which should go through the accounts of all these Departments in order to secure that you should not pay twice over for the same object. We were told that the suggestions I had made had already been carried out, and that financial control was absolutely secured. The Financial Secretary to the War Office and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty made a simlar statement. Since then we have had constant and repeated statements from the Comptroller and Auditor-General, and we have seen others in the public Press, relating to grave scandals, great waste of public money, articles being paid for two and three times over, and various items of that kind.

We need not continue this somewhat slipshod, haphazard system. It apparently originated when the control of the Treasury was withdrawn from the various Departments. I rather pity the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because he has no longer the control exercised by Chancellors of the Exchequer in past times. There are several Departments which are entirely free from Treasury control. The result has been what it was always thought it would be in times of peace, namely, that if you remove Treasury control you would have no one guardian of the public purse, you would have reckless and ill-considered expenditure, expenditure not made with a due sense of responsibility, and often expenditure which is not necessary. Only last week I received from my Constituency a complaint that a large area there is being taken over, which is quite unnecessary for the purposes of the Government there. They have taken already twelve square miles of the country, a gigantic area which they are unable to use. The cause may be a social fad, or something of that kind. There is no need for that at all. It will cost hundreds of thousands of pounds before it is completed, yet this is done without any immediate or pressing necessity whatever, and in an area which may not remain in Government possession after the War. I instance that as one case coming before me.

The purpose was that the development of the area should be kept under control. It has nothing to do with the use of the land in the neighbourhood, or the use to which the land was being put. It seemed that money was to be got and to be paid for somebody's fad. It could not be anything else in a time like this. I do not want to go into the details. I simply give this as an illustration of money being spent to a large amount for purposes upon which we might never be called upon to spend money at all. I, therefore, venture to urge that, late in the day as it is, we ought to reorganise our financial control. There is no reason why we should not. Only to-day we had an interesting statement from the First Lord of the Admiralty, who is radically reorgonising the control of the Admiralty. The Admiralty is a very ancient body, a very conservative body, a body with long traditions, many of them splendid and magnificent. The right hon. Gentleman has had the courage, when the necessity arose, to reorganise it, and add to its members those who can efficiently assist administration and meet the new circumstances of to-day. Why should we not reorganise our financial control? The right hon. Gentleman has admitted that when these figures were placed before him he regarded them with grave alarm and dissatisfaction.

I will give the right hon. Gentleman's exact language.

"I need not say this came to me as a very disagreeable surprise."

He was concerned, we will say, when he realised the state of affairs. That was in March. Notwithstanding his concern, he has again had to come to us so recently as last week and tell us it was with great concern that he had to give us a fresh estimate of that expenditure. I want to call attention to this very serious feature of his statement only last Wednesday, because he told us then that he did not make any promise whatever that that would be a final Estimate for the period for which the Vote of Credit was taken, and that he had misgivings in regard to the Estimate which he was then placing before the House. In the matter of finance, in which we have been accustomed to regard precision as essential—and it has been most closely attained in the past—we should revise our methods and make them a little more complete and perfect. Accountancy has reached a very high pitch of perfection, and if the proper steps are taken there is no reason why you should not have a mathematical result. We are not asking the right hon. Gentleman to say, "I will not permit expenditure here or there." The question is to know what expenditure has taken place and to tell us what we have to provide for in the very near future and the immediate, actual present, which is what we cannot get. Therefore I am strongly a supporter of the right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) when he urges that we should restore to the House of Commons its control over finance by bringing back the-Secretary to the Treasury to this House. I have heard a rumour that not only is he not in this House, but he is not even in this country. That also is very serious, because we can quite understand that the right hon. Gentleman has not even his assistance when he is out of the House, much less in it. I do not think such a state of things ought to continue a day longer than is necessary. I think the whole of the trouble has arisen because the House of Commons has abdicated its true functions for a considerable period. It is in the position of a committee, let us say, of a railway company, which one morning received a notice to say that its manager had been changed and a fresh manager appointed. No reasons were given whatever. The new manager was put in, and, of course, the hope was felt that the new management would be more able and more efficient; but again, eighteen months afterwards, another message comes to the committee to say that the manager has again changed without any reason assigned whatever. What would be the position of the directorate of a railway, or a bank, or any concern in this country when its managers were changed without its knowledge or consent, and when the new manager informs the directorate that he will see them when he chooses, and in the meantime he will not tell them what he is going to do. The shareholders in a commercial concern so managed would not give very much support to the directorate when it was called to account at the annual meeting. We have abdicated our functions and lost our control. I could say a great deal more on the subject, but I only want to-day to draw the financial moral.

I agree with my hon. Friend with regard to the evil, but I do not think the remedies which he has suggested will be of much value. We had a Secretary to the Treasury until lately, but he did not do any good.

The evil with regard to Estimates arose when we began token Votes. That was a misfortune. The particular evil which we are now discussing arose before the War. Over and over again during the last ten years we have had the right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury), and other Gentlemen who take an interest in financial control, urging that there should be some method by which these Estimates should be properly criticised. It has been suggested that we should have an Accounts Committee to sit on the accounts when the Estimates are made up and before they are submitted to us. I do not see any remedy, except the creation of some Commission of the House of Commons, similar to the Commission of the French Budget. The Public Accounts Committee is a very fine institution, but unhappily it does not come into play until the mischief has been done and the money is spent, so that the remarks which it makes, months after the evil has arisen, are practically of no value and are paid no attention to whatever. I was told the other day of one spending Department which is ordering an article which it never uses, and it continues to order it at immense cost from abroad. Who is interested in ordering it I do not know. I asked my informant, "Why do you not bring it before the authorities?" He said, "I have brought it before them over and over again." This gentleman is a Member of this House. I said, "Why do you not raise the question in the House?" He said, "I am in the Service, and under the rules I cannot very well do it, but I have told the persons concerned pri- vately, and they pay no attention whatever." He told me that hundreds of thousands of pounds are being spent every year in the purchase of that particular article which is known to be of no use at all. A mere statement of that fact, privately, by one Member to another is justification for some alteration being made in the way these transactions are carried on.

I rose, however, to refer in the first place to the talk which is going on in foreign newspapers, and, to some extent, in our own, and in political circles here, with regard to making separate peaces with Austria, Bulgaria and Turkey. It is said we have no quarrel with Austria. It appears to me that we have a very definite quarrel. We declared war on Austria because she was primarily guilty in this affair. At the dictation of Germany she sent an ultimatum, and eventually made war on Serbia. Our second ground of quarrel with Austria is that she has committed extreme atrocities. We betrayed Serbia once by not assisting her when assistance might have been of value, not only to her but to us. We should have stopped the War long ago if we had gone to the help of Serbia when the Prime Minister wished to do it, as we learned from the Minority Report of the Dardanelles Commission in January, 1915. If he had insisted on his own advice as against the unfortunate advice to go to the Dardanelles, the War would have been over long ago. What kind of chance is there of making a separate peace with Austria? And if there were any chance, ought we to do it? I believe that the mere fact of talk about a separate peace with Austria is already having a most deplorable effect upon Continental politics, and I am certain it is hurting our position in Russia. It would be of the utmost value to those who are handling the very difficult position in Russia on the spot to know that we were resolved under all circumstances not to make a separate peace with Austria. How can we carry out the promise of the Allies' Note if we consent to it? A separate peace with Austria would mean the enslavement of the present subject population of that Empire—the Jugo-Slays, the Slovaks, the Roumares and the Italians. Can we make a separate peace with Austria? Not unless the Germans consent, and it is quite conceivable that the Germans are allowing this kind of discussion to go on with the idea of producing the impression amongst our Allies that we are in the mood to make separate peace. I do not believe that the démarche which is already taking place on the subject could possibly have taken place without the consent of the people in Berlin.

But even suppose we could, the Germans have an absolute grip and control of the Austrians at this moment through their military organisation. The military organisation of Austria has been totally changed, and every regiment now is diluted with a very strong proportion of Germans—some say as much as one battalion in a regiment of three battalions. German officers are in control of the Austrian General Staff and of all the military arrangements, and unless the Germans consent to a separate peace being made it would be absolutely impossible to carry it out. It is absolutely against our own interests. We do not want to talk about our own interests, but still we cannot possibly help a consideration of our own interests as an individual nation coming into account in a matter of this kind. It would be absolutely ruinous to our future in the East if the Austrian Empire were allowed to continue to exist. The only possibility of loosening the Berlin-Bagdad chain is by setting up strong bodies of independent peoples between Germany and the East. If you break up the Austrian Empire you will have Poland as a bulwark in the North, you will have as a bulwark the Czecho-Slovaks in the middle, and in the South you will have a bulwark in the Roumanians, Transylvanians, and Jugo-Slays, and in the South-West you will have the bulwark of the Italians occupying the Isonzo Valley. Unless you have the break up of the Austrian Empire which will provide bulwarks against the expansion of the Pan-Germans in the East, you cannot protect our own Indian Empire and our Egyptian Protectorate against repeated attack from the Pan-Germans.

Who is it who is starting this attempt at a separatee peace with Austria? Abroad it is clear enough to see, but here there are several influences working in favour of it. It is, I think, principally supported by cosmopolitan finance. It would be ruinous to the cosmopolitan financiers who control the finances of Austria, the Credit-Anstalt, the Länder Bank, the Wiener Bank, the Boden Anstalt, and other financial institutions of Austria which have connections all over the world, here as well as elsewhere, and who form the means by which the financial control of Germany over the whole of these regions is maintained. It would be absolutely ruinous to them if the Austrian Empire were to break up, because these new nations would make financial arrangements independently. The Czechs, who are an extremely industrious and enterprising people, and who have already accumulated very considerable capital, would certainly have banks of their own. The Southern Slays are by no means poor, and would make arrangements of their own. None of them would want to be subject to Vienna, and through Vienna to Berlin, and therefore a strong body of financial opposition would be set up when once the Austrian Empire was broken up. Another reason why these financiers dislike the break-up of the Austrian Empire is that they are the main holders, probably of three-quarters of the total value, of the securities issued by the Austrian Empire, and if the Austrian Empire were to break up it is needless to say that these securities would be very little likely to hold even their present very diminished value. There is, therefore, every reason why these international financiers should leave no stone unturned to prevent the break up of the Austrian Empire. Then there is the clerical factor. The Roman Curia has so far held to the belief that the maintenance of the Hapsburg dynasty was one of the main securities for itself. That, I think, is a totally mistaken idea, and I believe that many of the leading men in the Church of Rome have come to the conclusion that they would do far better to devote their attention to the saving of the nationalities of the Austrian Empire rather than to saving the Hapsburg dynasty. There have been signs for some time that that view is beginning to effect a lodgment in the counsels of the Pope. Then there is another influence which is at work. It is rather a negative influence, in this fashion. There are large numbers of people here, and there may be some in the countries of our Continental Allies, although they have not much power, who regret the disappearance of dynasties because they are dynasties. A great many of our old Conservatives of the aristocratic element in this country think about the Austrians —they do not know much about them, but they think they are a polite people, as they are when contrasted with the brutal Prussian—and that it is a great pity that in a nation of historic institutions with which we have never had very much quarrel so far, with which we have never come into direct conflict up to now, that ancient dynasty should disappear. They have the kind of sympathy that a body of Conservatives in one country has with a body of Conservatives in another.

Then we have our friends the pacifists. I have heard a great many of their speeches in this House. I have heard the hon. Member for the Elland Division (Mr. Trevelyan), and the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden) and the hon. Member for Stirling Burghs (Mr. Ponsonby), and why they sympathise with the Austrian Empire I cannot see. The hon. Member for Stirling Burghs said that no one knew who the Czecho-Slovaks were. I think he is wrong. I think some people do know something about them. If they do not know about them they ought to know that the Czecho-Slovaks were the protagonists of reform both in politics and religion towards the end of the Middle Ages. At the end of the fourteenth century, Bohemia, under the leadership of John Huss, was for a long time the centre of Liberal thought and action in Europe. Now the Bohemians, the Czecho-Slovaks, are the most vigorous people in the Austrian Empire. They are more go-ahead in artistic and literary work and industries than any other element in the Austrian population. It is a pity that the hon. Member for Stirling Burghs does not realise that these Slav nationalities are partly now, and ought to be altogether, the revivifying influence in these regions. There is no hope of the Germans. They are tied hand ánd foot to the Magyars, people who since 1867 have been working hand-in-hand with Berlin—

The hon. Gentleman is giving a very interesting historical survey, but it really has no practical bearing on the Bill before the House.

I wanted to try to show that it would be very desirable for our Government—and that, I suppose, is a subject germane to this Bill—to make a pronouncement which will show that they have no intention of making a separate peace with any of the people of whom I have spoken. How it could be proposed by anyone that we should make a separate peace with Bulgaria I cannot understand. It is even said that we have no quarrel with the claims of the Bulgarians, but that we could grant all of them. We cannot possibly do that and at the same time do justice to Serbia and satisfy the aspirations of the Serbs. In the same way it is impossible to make a separate peace with the Turks. I can only suppose that the people who proposed this, the pacifist section of this country who abandon all their principles of democratic control, are only holding on to the desire to make a peace with somebody and at any cost. That is the only justification, so far as I can see, for their desire that a separate peace should be made with any of these people.

The other subject to which I wish to allude is connected with labour. I do think the Government ought to make some modification in their policy with regard to labour in this country. Everybody now knows, after the long suppression of all information, that there has been a very serious strike, which has not altogether ended, in the industrial districts of England, and I cannot help thinking that the Government have themselves to blame for the existence of that strike. They have never properly taken into their confidence, I will not say some of the labour unions, but all the forces of labour that are in existence. It has been owing, I think, sometimes to a push by what one may call the forward party of the Government with regard to using strong measures of control, and at other times to a weakness in the Government in not using sufficiently strong measures. They did not make up their minds which horse they were going to ride. Sometimes they gave in and sometimes they did not give in, and there has been an uncertainty among labour which I think has a great deal of justification. I believe that the policy of the card system was, so far as I can make out, a definite violation of a promise of the Government. When that system was introduced the Government promised that no man should be debadged, now they have come to the point where they do debadge men. I do not blame the Government, but T do not think they have taken everybody into consultation. I do not think they have taken employers sufficiently into consultation. I believe that if the employers had been consulted a great many of these troubles, if not all, would have been avoided, There was not long ago brought into existence a very powerful federation called, I think, the Federation of British Industries. There are about 400 firms in it, representing a capital of £4,000,000,000 to £5,000,000,000. These trades are represented in the Federation, and one of the special objects with which it was formed was the maintenance of good relations between capital and labour. The principle object for which it was formed was to prevent trouble arising after the War and during the War between the two great elements in the production of wealth. The Government, so far as I know, has never asked the advice of the Federation, and, so far as I know, has never asked the advice of the older federations of employers or of any individual employers, but has acted off its own bat, with the results we have seen. I think myself that it has come to this, from what I have seen of the working of great industries in the North of England, that if proper attention had been given to the advice of the workers and employers these troubles would never have arisen.

5.0 P.M.

It is rather difficult to know when to speak on a day like this, when so many subjects come up and it is impossible to speak in detail on them. I fancy, however, that what was said on the financial side has nearly come to an end, and it is for the purpose of saying a few words on that subject that I have risen. With regard to the speech of the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken (Mr. Bryce), I do not think I should say anything about the labour aspect of the present situation, because that is sure to be raised later. As regards what the hon. Gentleman said about the War, I do not think there is much I can say.

My hon. Friend's view is that our enemies are all a bad lot and we have to beat the whole of them, and that there can be no question of making a separate peace with any of them. Well, I think that depends upon circumstances. All I can say on this subject is to suggest to my hon. Friend that our German enemies are all the time trying to get any of the Allies detached from the others, but in my belief—I do not in the least suggest it is possible—no blow would seem so fatal to the Germans as the detachment of one of their Allies. As regards the financial position, my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfriesshire (Mr. Molteno) made a speech to which I listened with very great interest. He dealt with a great many essential considerations, but I am going to say now what I have already said that I am not satisfied that there is not a great deal of waste of money. I agree that, to a certain extent, that is unavoidable in a war, because the House must remember that there is one thing which cannot happen during a war without great disadvantage to the country, and that is that a decision by which expenditure is made cannot be indefinitely postponed. I remember the late Sir Michael Hicks-Beach himself once said regarding the Boer War, that there cannot be ordinary financial Treasury control or the war would suffer. If that was true with regard to the Boer War it is obviously much more true now in regard to this War. I have been led to expect that there would be two or three days of a full dress discussion in connection with what has taken place. I should welcome such a discussion. I have to the best of my ability considered the possibility of this House of Commons control and I do not see how it would work during the War. If those who hold a different view think they can make any concrete proposal in regard to economy I can promise them that I will consider it with an open mind, and shall be very glad if I can possibly adopt it. My hon. Friend gave one illustration of a waste of money and an illustration is, I think, always useful. He told us of a case in his own Constituency where a bit of land was being bought and he could see no defence for it, but I may tell my hon. Friend there is a considerable amount of sense in this transaction. I will tell the House what I am told the facts are. A large amount of ground has been bought for new factories which have been erected on it. It was found there was a little strip which had not been bought by the Government. It meant that the existence of this little strip would interfere with the spread of the Government factories as development became necessary. If I were looking at that, as I am sure my hon. Friend who is a business man would, I should say, "Here is a little bit of land which obviously is of increasing value because of the factories which we have created, and the demand for building in connection with them. If you allow that to remain private property you are making a present to some individual of the excess value that you have created yourself." I think if that is known it will be found that there is considerable justification for it.

If you have to give it up after the War, where does the excess value come in?

That is very problematical. I should say that the last of the factories which will cease to operate are the new ones which have all the best machinery. I should be surprised if these factories ceased to be used for something after the War.

My hon. Friend alluded to the difference in the Estimate, and he quoted me correctly with regard to the arrangement of having a Financial Secretary who is not a Member. That, I think, is a system which ought to be decided by results. I think that is quite fair. He says that always in the past the Treasury has been able to make a mathematical estimate. Now I ask the House to consider what that means, estimating for the future for all war requirements. From the beginning of the War it has been true that the Estimate has been based, to a large extent, on the specific demands of the War Office or the Ministry of Munitions. They have been based on what is believed to be the possible production of the things which we require. When you are dealing with Estimates framed on such a basis as that, it is only guess work; you cannot form an idea what they are. My hon. Friend spoke as though the Estimates were all the result of the action of the Financial Secretary. I suppose he has not looked at the Estimates for last year, when we had the full presence of a most able Financial Secretary. The Vote of Credit was exceeded by £373,000,000, or not much more than £1,000,000 a day. He is quite right in saying that I did say I did not feel at all confident the Estimate was correct, and I am not now. We cannot form the kind of Estimate the Treasury formed because they are dealing with data. We have no such data. All I can say is that, so far, the fact that we have spent over the Budget Estimate in the thirty-five days which have elapsed this year is not in itself proof that the Estimate for the whole year is wrong.

As regards the general question of economy, I would have dealt with it more fully if there had been the full-dress discussion which had been anticipated. I can only say from memory what I know about the position. The House must not form the idea that though the Treasury control is not as complete as it was before the War, that there has not been an immense improvement of financial control. I will tell the House what has been done. I am not going to deal with the Civil Service Departments, important as economy is there. It is not in that direction that the big sums are spent; they are spent in connection with three great War Departments—the Army, the Navy, and the Munitions. Let us take, first, the Navy. The plan adopted by the late Government of trying to get control was to appoint a Committee to go into the methods by which finance was administered. In regard to the Admiralty the Committee was presided over by my right hon. Friend opposite. All these Committees did their very best to see that a good system was in operation. I think that that Committee was useful, and one of the results, and not the least important, was that two experienced accountants, professional men, who had been assisting my right hon. Friend have been retained to help the Admiralty in this matter. The Committee of the Admiralty goes into every item of expense, and with regard to the Admiralty, there is more of Treasury control than is possible in other Departments. There is also a Treasury Committee which sits two or three times a week at the Treasury, on which the Admiralty are represented, and before that Committee every important item is examined, and the result is that, I think, there is a pretty considerable amount of control. The Admiralty sometimes say, "You are delaying this thing too long by your examination." I do not think that has happened to any serious extent, but when it does the First Lord of the Admiralty approaches the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and says, "This cannot be delayed any longer." It is then gone into, and the question is settled for good or for evil to the best of the ability of those who take it in hand. Then the next Department of the War is associated with the War Office. But I should like to interject this observation, that I always believe that financial control in reality cannot be exercised to any great extent by committees. The use of committees, and it is a very great use, is to see that the system is right. For that purpose they are extremely useful. But beyond that you will only get proper control if you have men on the work who understand it and appreciate its importance. That is not a new rule of mine. The House will remember that at the time of the Boer War the Government of the day was being pretty severely criticised for waste of money at that time. I think the criticism was, to a certain extent, deserved. I remember I had newly joined the House, and I remember writing a letter to a newspaper which expressed the view I felt then, and which I feel as strongly now. That is this: To people who have not had experience buying and selling seems the easiest thing in the world, and they think any fool can do it. In my opinion it is a trade needing apprenticeship as much as that of a barrister or any other profession. That is my view. In that letter I pointed out that the way an ordinary business man gets a proper training is this: If he buys at the wrong time, or gives too much, he will find he is out of pocket when he makes up his balance at the end of the year. That is the way he gets his training, and it seems to me that the way to get the same result in the Government Departments is, as far as possible, to use the same class of men for that class of work and take advantage of their experience.

Let me show to what extent that has been going on. Let me take the War Office. A similar Committee to that which I have already referred with regard to the Admiralty was set up there. It was under the chairmanship of my right hon. Friend the Colonial Secretary. I think it did useful work. There was a Finance Committee, and an Advisory Committee on contracts. That was the system. But here, again, it is a question of getting the right men to do the work, and in one Department alone, the Clothing Department of the War Office, they have something like one hundred men who were in business before who are helping them in dealing with these matters. I have had reports presented to me by all these Departments, and I have looked through them as well as I can, and I can tell the House with absolute certainty that the result of the improvement which is now going on at the War Office, as compared with the beginning of the War, is simply incalculable. It is an immense improvement on the system which prevailed at the beginning. It is not merely an improvement in the method of purchasing. As the House knows, there have been severe restrictions upon output. The ordinary market conditions have not been permitted. There have been requisitions, and even where that did not happen, in fixing contracts the War Office is not satisfied with getting the lowest tender, because obviously when the demand is so much in excess of any possible supply you cannot rely on low prices. They have set up a Costing Department, which goes into the cost of these contracts, and before it lets a contract it is satisfied that the amount is not unreasonable, having regard to the costs of material and labour. Here, again, it is a question of men.

The War Office have had helping them, and have helping them to-day, men who could not be bought by any salary the House of Commons could possibly give them. Take, for instance, Lord Rothermere, in the Clothing Department, or Mr. Weir, who has undertaken the position of General Supervisor of Contracts. In regard to this last appointment I should like to say that it has seemed to me from the beginning of the War that the only way in which you can get the best results is to have a capable business man at the head of the buying Department and who has a position in the War Office which makes it certain that his views will be carried out and his method of buying will be adopted. That has happened in regard to Mr. Weir, whom I know. He is an extremely capable man, and he is now a member of the Army Council. I am convinced that by that method, much more than by any efforts of a committee, you will do more to secure reasonable economy in purchases than by any amount of talking about them in a vague way in the House of Commons. The Ministry of Munitions is in precisely the same position. It has been easier in regard to the Ministry of Munitions, because it is a new Department. Therefore, it is easier to regulate it on proper lines. At the Ministry of Munitions they have Committees which run the business more or less on business lines. I do not profess to say that there has not been waste. If you are doing things from the point of view of getting them in the shortest possible time, you must spend more money than if you were doing them from the point of view of getting them at the cheapest possible price. That is inevitable. In the Ministry of Munitions there is a body of business men more competent, I believe, than is to be found in any industrial undertaking in the country. That is my opinion. No Department is more important than the Department which deals with cost and with the efforts to keep down expense. I should have gone much more into detail if I had been specially prepared to deal with this subject, but I have given the essential facts of the methods now used in regard to these contracts.

I come back to the old complaint about the Financial Secretary. I know there are many hon. Members who feel that the present arrangement is wrong. I have defended it many times, and I am still satisfied that there is too much regard paid to tradition and not sufficient to what is likely to be the most effective method. When the appointment of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury was suggested my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister suggested to me the present occupant of the office, because he had known what his work was in connection with the Ministry of Munitions. I was rather unwilling to adopt the suggestion, and the House can easily imagine why. I did not want to add to my labours in the House of Commons, because I thought they would be plenty without any addition. I should, therefore, much have preferred to have had an experienced politician representing that Department in the House of Commons. But I did realise that now that Treasury control was so different, the real use of the Financial Secretary was to do what the Treasury could to keep down expenditure, and I was satisfied that for that purpose someone of the type of Sir Hardman Lever, different from myself and other politicians, who probably would not be much use in this House, but who could devote himself solely to the purpose of regulating, and, if possible, economising in expenditure, would be best suited for the work. I was satisfied that that would be the better arrangement from the point of view of economy, and I think it is to-day. I really do not think there is much justification for the complaint merely on the ground of nominal office. Everyone who condemns the present arrangement bears testimony to the capacity of my hon. friend the Member for the Bewdley Division (Mr. Baldwin). They admit he is doing the work well. The work is done in the best possible way, and I am satisfied on the whole—and I hope the House of Commons will agree with me—that this arrangement is a good arrangement from the point of view of the very object which the House of Commons has at heart, namely, as far as possible to control the expenditure of these Departments.

Perhaps the House will allow me to say a few words as one who has had some experience as a past Financial Secretary to the Treasury, both in time of war and in time of peace. Naturally, having held the office of Financial Secretary, and having found it at the same time one of the most interesting and absorbing of offices, as well as one of the most onerous that the State can offer, I am likely to scrutinise in a critical spirit the experiment which my right hon. friend has tried in appointing a Financial Secretary outside the House of Commons. I cannot see to-day any reason for suggesting that the House of Commons or the Treasury has suffered in the least by the arrangement. What has the House lost? It has lost the privilege of asking questions of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. It asks questions instead of the hon. Member for the Bewdley Division, and it gets the same answer, with great courtesy and great ability. It has never suffered from want of information, and I cannot believe, although I know nothing of what goes on in the Treasury now, that the fact that the hon. Member for Bewdley has not got the title of Financial Secretary to the Treasury makes any difference to the method of estimating the expenditure of Government Departments, or is likely to affect the arithmetic on which the Estimates are based.

As regards the subject of waste, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said, if the House attaches so much importance to this topic, it has got to remember that the economic expenditure of money, important though it is, is not of the first importance in time of war. The first and the most important consideration and the pressing need is the need of services and of goods. Get them, of course, as economically and as efficiently as you can. If the House was confronted by a Chancellor of the Exchequer who had spent money to get goods which the Army or the Navy, or the people wanted, and got the goods, or on the other hand by a Chancellor of the Exchequer who had refused to expend money because he thought it was not economical and might be extravagant, and he did not get the goods, I do not know what the House of Commons would say, but I know which Chancellor of the Exchequer I would prefer to be. You cannot wait to obtain goods or to obtain services till you are quite certain that you have not spent a penny too much. That is why the late Government, as far as I can remember, in agreement with the House of Commons, in debating the topic, suspended or modified the doctrine of Treasury control during the War. As regards the Admiralty, as my right hon. Friend has said, a Treasury Emergency Committee was set up, and all the time I think it has worked extremely well, and has been able to investigate to a certain extent expenditure without any great delay. The Admiralty was organised for that purpose, and it was quite easy owing to the organisation of the Admiralty and the relatively smallness of their expansion to arrange for a Committee which could transact business and transact it quickly. An attempt was made to make a similar organisation relating to the War Office, but it was found to be impossible. The War Office was expending at a great rate. New Departments were being formed and expenditure did not come at that time through one single channel. It was very difficult to find a small or analogous Committee to represent the views of the War Office who could spare the time to attend the meetings of the Committee, which had to be held frequently, and the attempt broke down in favour of what was known at the Treasury at that time as Home Rule for the War Office. The only alternative would have been to keep Treasury control as a fiction, but I submit with great respect that there is nothing so dangerous as pretended control, which is not real control.

There is nothing so dangerous as a principle as the principle of covering sanction. An expenditure is incurred and the Treasury is then consulted. It is said, "We had to do this and we had not time to consult you. Give us your sanction, now that it is incurred in order that we may appear with solemn permission and the ritual attaching to it before the Public Accounts Committee and the Controller." Covering sanction is a thing which in my opinion ought to be rarely if ever used. The best thing is to dispense with the necessity of covering Treasury sanction in matters of emergency, and to leave the responsibility for expenditure on the Department concerned. I offer this suggestion in great humility to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that when we get back to the times of peace I do not believe that the old system of Treasury control is likely to be found the best system of controlling expenditure in Government Departments. The control depends so much upon the vigour, personality, and importance of the head of the Department whom you are attempting to control. If it is a big Department with a great statesman at the top, naturally anxious to justify his appointment by great activity in his Department, which usually means great expenditure of money, the matter is taken out of the hands of the extra-ordinarily efficient and well-trained servants of the Treasury, and taken out of the hands of the Financial Secretary, and even out of the hands of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is made a Cabinet matter, and for reasons of high politics expenditure which does not seem to be justified by itself as an item is sanctioned by the Cabinet, and the Treasury has to grin and bear it. That makes for cynicism on the part of those who try to administer the control. It makes them pitch their criticism of proposals rather too high, because they fear they will be watered down. I think, too, it makes for callousness on the part of the spending Department. They say, "It does not much matter what the preliminary Treasury correspondence says. This is so important, and affects so important an office, and our Secretary of State is so big a man, that sooner or later we must get our way." But when it comes to a smaller Department, with a younger or less experienced Minister, or a less ambitious Minister, whose Department does not bulk so large in our Debates, the Treasury can get its own back. It can effect its little economies. It can starve the Office of Works. It can interfere with the Post Office, and it has even on occasion been successful in preventing expenditure in Ireland. That makes for the bullying and disheartening of the more humble Departments. Therefore I think that in times of peace already the old system of Treasury control had broken down, and I would suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that by a system under which a lump sum, an outside sum, is ascribed to the Department and the Department has its own Financial Secretary, chosen in consultation with the Secretary, who would be responsible to the Treasury and Parliament for seeing that the money is properly expended, and agreeing with the Treasury as to the general principles which should govern all the Departments, and proceeding upon them, you would probably get far more efficient and uniform control than you have got through the Treasury and the Financial Secretary in the past.

I agree with every word which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said about the advisability of employing business men. It seems to me that that is the place where business men can be most usefully employed by the State. I cannot see why the opportunity of using business men should occur in war-time and war time only. There ought to be a career open for business men, a business career in the Government, a business career for Government servants. You will never do it while you have a uniform system of recruiting and of promotion, and a uniform scale of salaries such as we have had, but after the War, when Government activities become even greater than they have been in the past and even more diverse, you will have to go outside the ordinary traditions of the Civil Service and you will have, I think, to be prepared to pay and to give greater opportunities to those whom you enlist in your service. You will also, it seems to me, find your path much simpler because of the new tribunal which has been set up to govern wages—the new tribunal which relieves the Financial Secretary to the Treasury and the Treasury itself from direct responsibility in dealing with the questions as to the increase of pay in the lower branches of the Civil Service. That used to be one of the most troublesome questions with which the Financial Secretary had to do—Customs watchers, Inland Revenue clerks, Post Office servants. My hon. Friend will know more and will recognise how complicated are the details of the claims and how incompetent he must feel to deal with these questions as from a seat of authority without submitting them, as the modern practice is, to tribunals consisting of employers and employed sitting together. The result has always been again that the more influential politically the classes were the better the chance they had through their Members or through discussion in the House of Commons of get- ting a better rate of pay. We are always accustomed to suggest that differences of opinion between employers and employed in private life should be submitted to arbitration, and I cannot yet understand why we have been so long recognising the principle that the employés of the State also should have the right to appeal to a tribunal between the dictum of the State as given out by the Treasury, and the requests as embodied in their own memorial. That principle has been started now, and I hope earnestly that the tribunal which decides these things will be left as free by the House of Commons from its interference as it is possible for it to be.

With regard to the position of the House of Commons in this matter, it does seem to me very difficult to do in time of war more than the Chancellor of the Exchequer described, but I would again, with great respect, point out that we never in this House in times of peace examine Estimates as they ought to be examined. There are twenty allotted days for Supply. Vast sums are guillotined at the end of those twenty allotted days, and the Estimates that are discussed are not chosen because of the financial opportunities which they possess and because of the possibility of saving money here or there. Estimate days in my experience are not usually devoted to considering the financial value of money which the heods of the Department have got to spend. They provide an opportunity for ragging the head of the Department on most occasions or, at times, possibly of indulging in obstruction. Go to any business house in the world and suggest to the management of it that the proper way of seeing whether the management is efficient is to submit the estimates of expenditure to the scrutiny of 670 members who are to look into the estimates and the items of expenditure and see whether the money is about to be spent properly, and the proposal will strike him as coming from nothing more reputable than a lunatic. It is contrary to real control of expenditure by the House of Commons. It does not seem to me—I have no right to speak, I have so short an experience of the House of Commons, except from the fact that I have listened to these Debates on economy, and I have never seen any constructive proposal adopted as a result of them—that we can ever get any real satisfaction merely out of an examination of expenditure of Estimates by the House of Commons in Supply; and I believe that our only hope is to have a system of Select Committees, small in number and chosen with care, to go into sample Estimates and present a Report to the House—Estimate Committees which will have the right to summon before them the Minister responsible for the Estimates, and those officials whom they desire to examine at his suggestion on particular items.

These Committees should report to the House, and when Supply day came on for discussing general policy every Member who wished to take part in the Debate should be armed with the Report of the Select Committee which from year to year had been investigating the Estimates of the particular Department in which they were interested. I know quite well that an Estimates Committee was tried some years ago, but that was a large Committee, which was appointed to deal with all the Estimate. My suggestion is to have a Select Committee for each office or group of offices, and that this Select Committee, which makes itself in its working familiar with the operations of the Department, should submit its Report to the House for use on the more general discussion which takes place on the Report stage of Supply. I have gone a long way from the Consolidated Fund; but it does seem to me that, by the rough idea which I have ventured to give the House of the two parts of the organisation, on the one hand Treasury control exercised by means of devolution through officers in each Department rather than, as it is now, by the Treasury itself, and House of Commons control by means of Committees. We shall then have a far greater scrutiny of expenditure than we have had in the past. But during the War every objection which seemed to the late Government to apply to Treasury control, as it has hitherto been exercised, applies still more to control by the House of Commons. As the War goes on time is more and more an important factor in its conduct. The only way in which the House of Commons in war time can exercise its control over expenditure seems to me to be to direct the attention of the Government, as it has done to those extravagances which it wishes to condemn, and to receive the satisfactory news which the Chancellor of the Exchequer was able to give it of the improvements which have been going on in the general administration of the spending Departments, an improvement which the House of Commons has the right to look upon as its own improvements, because I believe that they had all resulted from Debates in this House, and I can see nothing more hopeful in time of war than devotion to general principles rather than to attempt to examine in detail, before the money is spent, the estimates of expenditure.

I do not rise to enter into the most important proposals which my right hon. Friend has made with respect to this larger issue, but I take the earliest opportunity of expressing my entire disagreement with the view which he has expressed as to the presence or absence of the right hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary from this House in the sense that I should not like it to be thought that an endorsement should be given from this Bench of the arrangement that has been made by the present Government in that respect without an immediate protest being forthcoming from the same quarter. My right hon. Friend has said that the House of Commons should be well content to have a representative of the Treasury here who gives very courteous answers to any questions that may be addressed to him and who will give precisely the same answers as would be given by the Secretary to the Treasury himself had he a seat in this House. I am quite sure that when my right hon. Friend was the Secretary to the Treasury he did not regard himself, and the House did not regard him, as the mere mouthpiece of a Department. He regarded himself as a Minister, and I should say that the House regarded him as an efficient Minister exercising a real control, and to say that the House should be content to have a mere representative or spokesman of the Department here rather than an authoritative and responsible Minister is a position which the House itself on consideration would not be prepared to accept. Indeed, I do not see why my right hon. Friend should not extend his principle to the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself and why he should not urge upon him that it would matter little in the control of this House over finance if the Chancellor of the Exchequer were some extra Parliamentary person so long as he was represented here by a junior Minister who would give the same kind of replies which he would give were he here himself.

Is not my right hon. Friend labouring under a misapprehension in this respect, that, important as the Financial Secretary to the Treasury is, he is after all under the control of the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the latter chooses to exercise his control?

That, of course, is so in theory, but I think that the Secretary to the Treasury has always in the past had a somewhat more independent status than the Under-Secretary in any other Department. He has exercised over the details of expenditure a much wider control than the Under-Secretary in any other Department has exercised over the details of administration in his Department, and I think that he has not been required in the past to refer nearly so frequently to his chief as is the case in other Departments. Particularly is that so in time of war; and, at this moment, as we all know, the present Chancellor of the Exchequer is a man of untiring industry; he is Leader of the House, and there are heavy burdens which lie upon his shoulders. As Leader of this House he has to be in daily attendance here; he has to take part in debate frequently in the course of each week; in addition, he bear the heavy responsibility of membership of a Cabinet which contains only four other members—except when representatives of the Dominions chance to attend—and consequently the number of burdens upon him are proportionately increased. He has to provide vast sums of money to be handed over for the service of the War, and he has to control the immense financial operations which are now necessary. It is impossible, therefore, for him to exercise any real supervision over details of expenditure, and what the House should have, and what the House, I think, ought to demand, and ought to take every opportunity of demanding, is that we should have here a Minister who is in executive control of details of expenditure. We all of us have great confidence in the hon. Member for Bewdley (Mr. Baldwin), and nothing said on this occasion by any Member denotes the slightest lack of confidence in him. What we desire to see is that he should have really authoritative control, and that he should represent the Treasury in the House. The Secretary to the Treasury, if he is a Member of Parliament, has daily to answer questions relating to finance. He knows the feeling of the House, he knows what the House knows, but one who is not a member cannot stand in the same relationship to Parliament as a Member of the House, and consequently the House delegates the financial control to a gentleman who represents the important position of Secretary to the Treasury who ought to a Member of this House.

I wish to continue the question which was raised by the hon. Member for Aberdeen, in regard to the present industrial unrest. I am anxious that not a word of mine should inflame the passions that have surged up in certain districts. I think a policy of secrecy and suppression of discussion on the part of the Government is a mistaken policy, and to a very large extent trouble has been caused by the Censor having allowed official statements to be passed, while the case for the workpeople has not been heard at all, and has not been allowed in any way to come before the public. I will give an instance of how far that policy has been carried out. One of the matters in dispute is the abolition of the trade card system, and the substitution of a system of certain protected industries. There have been many statements issued, and I believe I am not wrong in saying, officially issued more or less, from the Ministry of Munitions, indicating the advantages and greater fairness of the new system as compared with the old. I am not for a moment concerned to enter into the merits or demerits of that question at all, but I would point out that the assistant secretary to the Amalgamated Society of Engineers wrote an exceedingly moderate and restrained article, a copy of which I have seen. He sent it to the "Woolwich Pioneer," putting his side of the case with great reasonableness and without anything in it of an inflammatory character. That article was suppressed officially by the Censor, and I know for a fact that the suppression of the article has caused far more unrest among the Woolwich engineers than would have been occasioned if it had been allowed to appear in full, for it would have given the other side of the case. But it was held back, while officially other communications were constantly being inserted in the newspapers. That caused a keen sense of unfairness, and it is action of that kind which tends to add to the passion which is always involved in troubles of this nature. I submit that it is a mistaken policy on the part of the Government, and one which they should certainly give up.

I quite understand that the Government must be anxious that information regarding the extent of labour troubles and so on should not go abroad, but it seems to me that the way in which news is now allowed to appear in our newspapers is far worse than if the actual facts were told concerning these disputes. You do not suppress the fact that there are industrial troubles, and you leave it to people abroad to form the most exaggerated estimates, because of the fact that only a small part of the truth has been told, without any decided information in regard to the matter. As to the policy of the Government, it would appear to be based on the idea which is behind Christian science—that there are no troubles, and you do not admit that there are troubles. That is not a policy which will get a Government out of its difficulties. I believe that if there is fair and honest discussion, and if there is a fair and honest attempt to meet grievances and remove them, the whole condition of things would be far better than exists under a policy of suppression and a desire to hide things and cover them up. I do not believe that anybody in this House, or in this country, really desires to see strikes and industrial troubles at the present time. I do not know whether the representative of the Ministry of Munitions knows of any one, but I think, personally, and I have said it over and over again in this House, that I cannot imagine anyone desiring to see industrial troubles added to all the other troubles already on the back of the country at this moment. I urge that if industrial peace is to be kept, there is responsibility resting on the Government as well as on the workers. I would suggest that this is a subject that should be looked into, and that if the Government are not going to do it, then it becomes the duty of Members of the House of Commons to make investigations, and see what is behind this unrest, and see also whether we can get rid of these troubles so that matters connected with the War may be pressed forward.

Everybody knows that under the Munitions of War Act it became an illegal act on the part of a trade union to take part in any strike; so that to-day, no matter what the grievance is, a strike officially sanctioned by a trade union would place that trade union in the position of an outlaw society, and would render its funds liable to be appropriated, and so on. Therefore, there is not much point in saying, no matter what the trouble is, that union officials have not sanctioned this strike. It would be impossible for a union to officially sanction a strike at the present time, for were it to do so, its action would make it an illegal organisation. Workmen cannot legally strike, and if they do strike they are committing a breach of the provisions of the Munitions of War Act. Although they have entered upon a strike, it has only been after they have asked you to refer the questions in dispute to arbitration, and you have allowed the matter to stand over month after month before any settlement was reached. So much has that been the case, and so many have been these delays, that the present representative of the Ministry of Munitions is now actually inserting into a Bill provisions for speeding up the machinery of arbitration. Grievances have been allowed to continue month after month, ever since the pasage of the Munitions Act in 1915. I know of cases where workmen and workwomen have put forward a grievance for adjustment by arbitration, and they have had to wait five or six months before any settlement was reached. It seems to me that we are bound to speed up arbitration, and not allow matters to drag on month after month. A little time ago I brought up in this House a dispute which occurred in Rochdale. At the time I brought it up that dispute had been allowed to drag on for seven weeks. Within three days of its being mentioned in this House it was settled, and it was settled against the employers. It was the employers who were in the wrong, and who had acted in defiance of the Munitions of War Act. If the workmen had acted in defiance of the Munitions of War Act they would have been threatened with pains and penalties, penal servitude for life and all that sort of thing; but when it was the employers who were in the wrong, the Ministry of Munitions adopted the very gentlest persuasion, and allowed this matter to drag on week after week. That was the spark which lit the fire that you now have. Grievances have developed in the meantime, but if earlier action had been taken with regard to that and other disputes, possibly you would not have had the same troubles with which you are now faced.

6.0 P.M.

I want to put it to the Government that the present trouble is due, on the part of the Government, to the breach of two distinct undertakings in connection with two distinct matters. It may be that you will say that the breaking of a promise is due to military necessity, and that military necessity knows no law and knows no promise. If you do say that, at any rate the answer is that you cannot go on breaking promises and avoiding undertakings, on the strength of which things have been done, without causing trouble. Take the first case, the case of the trade card system, into the merits and demerits of which I do not enter. I do not say whether it is a good scheme or a bad scheme, but I do say that there was a definite under-taking given between, I understand, the War Office and the Ministry of Munitions and certain trade unions concerned in the matter of recruitment and enlistment, which was to be settled by means of the trade card scheme, and names were definitely affixed to an undertaking of that kind. The question does not arise as to whether the scheme was the best one, or as to whether the pledge had been broken by the Government, or whether the new scheme to be put into place of the old one was the better. The Government thought the new one the better scheme, and obviously the workmen did not think it was the better scheme, and numbers of them, especially the engineers, have made a very definite protest against it.

Was an undertaking broken in regard to that matter or not? If it was broken, what is the justification for breaking it? The other matter arises in regard to the question of the dilution of labour on ordinary private, commercial work. That is, in my opinion, a far bigger grievance on the part of the men than the other question with regard to the trade card scheme. There were conferences between the unions, especially between the Amalgamated Society of Engineers and the Ministry of Munitions, in regard to this question of the giving up of their rules and restrictions in regard to urgent war work. There was one conference in 1915 and another in 1916. I am assured by engineers that they have in their possession definite assurances given by responsible Ministers, apparently on behalf of the Government, that if they would give up their restrictions and allow dilution of labour in regard to urgent War work that that would not be extended to commercial work, and that it was on a distinct understanding that it would not be extended to ordinary commercial work that they allowed the other to go by the board and agreed to what was for them, although Members may not quite understand it, a very big sacrifice, because those trade restrictions have been built up by a century of labour effort and labour struggle, and many of them believe that it is far easier to give them up during the War than to get them back after the War is over. Many of the workmen know that. I want to ask the representative of the Ministry of Munitions, who always tries to act fairly and reasonably in this House, whether such undertakings were given—one in 1915 and again repeated in 1916—that if they would give up their restrictions in regard to urgent war work that they would not be asked to give up those restrictions in regard to commercial work. If that is true, is it not also the case that the purpose of the New Munitions of War Bill now before the House is to force them, having given up their restrictions on urgent war work, to give up those restrictions on commercial work as well? Does that involve a breach of faith on the part of the Government or does it not?

We have got to face these matters frankly if we are going to get to the root of this matter and to understand what the grievance is and how the trouble has arisen. I have often tried in this House to bring home to the Ministry of Munitions the psychology of part of the industrial trouble. You are now dealing with munition workers who have been systematically overworked for two and a half years. You are dealing with munition workers who are tired, who are run down, whose nerves are on edge, and who are not so reasonable as, perhaps, Gentlemen sitting on the Front Bench. But that is all the more reason why you should try to avoid quarrels of this kind if you can possibly avoid quarrels with them. There is no doubt at all that the breaking of what they regard as these two undertakings practically inside one week—that is, the scrapping of the trade card system, and this further question of the dilution of labour on ordinary commercial work—has caused deep resentment practically in every munition centre of this country. I am going to ask the representative of the Ministry of Munitions to tell us what the present position really is. Is the trouble increasing or decreasing, and what method does the Government propose to use for dealing with the troubles? I have seen posters put up by the Ministry of Munitions on the hoardings in more than one industrial centre this week-end threatening the men, telling them what the penalties are, and mentioning penal servi- tude as one of them. Penal servitude is distinctly mentioned on the poster. I do not know if I have the slightest influence with the representative of the Ministry of Munitions, but I do know something of the present temper of many of these men, and I can assure you that you are not going to get this matter settled by threats of that kind. I do not believe you have very much intention of applying those threats, and, if you have, you are not going to make the trouble less or to achieve a practical result. I do hope you will find some other methods of meeting these men than by the threats such as you have posted over many of these districts.

I would also remind you that the administration of the Munitions Act—and I have told hon. Gentlemen this many times—has caused a great deal of disaffection. There are supposed to be laws in this country against the spread of disaffection. The Ministry of Munitions really ought to be tried under that law for some of the things they have done and which have caused more disaffection than all the young agitators of twenty-five to whom the Minister of Labour referred. Some really wicked things have been done in the administration of the Munitions of War Act. I mentioned a case in this House a fortnight ago, where a woman had been off work for a day. She was brought like a criminal into the munitions Courts, and was about to be fined, when, by a judicious question on the part of the woman assessor, she actually ascertained that the woman's baby had died, and she stayed off one day from her work in order to bury it. The employers had not taken the trouble to ascertain why the woman was away from her work. A woman brought into Court under those conditions is a matter which is bound to cause trouble and resentment when she goes back to the factory, because every worker gets to know of it, and they feel that it is a very unfair and wrong thing to do.

Yes. An hon. Member asks me why she did not write and explain. The extraordinary thing about the matter is that, so far as many of the workpeople are concerned, they really do not know how the provisions of the Munitions Act apply to them, and they go into Court with a certain feeling that they are not going to get much chance, just like many go into the Police Courts.

When the Chairman asked her whether she pleaded guilty to being away from her work and thereby losing time, she admitted it at once, while the fact was that her baby had been lying dead, and it was for that reason alone she had been away from her work. Then, again, there are the increasing difficulties in regard to food, and the feeling which is aroused when Lord Devonport brings up a case where potato substitutes have passed through the hands of ten different people before they reach the consumer, so that the price has been forced up mountains high. When that is read in many of the working-class districts it causes disaffection. The profiteers cause disaffection, and they ought certainly to be tried under the Defence of the Realm Act for the spread of sedition and discontent. Then there is the feeling on the part of a good many of the workmen that there is a growing divorce between them and some of the men who used to lead them, and who are now sitting upon the Front Bench. Large numbers of workmen do feel that it is very difficult for men to be in the Ministry to be responsible to the Government and at the same time to have the old allegiance that they used to have to the men outside and to try to take up their grievances from the men's point of view. The result undoubtedly is that there is a certain measure of chaos and disorganisation spreading throughout the trade union movement, and it is because I believe there is a growing divorce between the leaders and the mass of the men, and I say that as one entirely detached, because I am not a trade union leader and have no desire to be a trade union leader, and have no desire to take the place of anybody who is—the kind of action such as has been ascribed by the Minister of Labour to some of the men in districts which are supposed to be behind this trouble is not the case. I do assure the Minister of Labour, whom I am glad to see in his place, that he would be very much surprised if he went down to some of the munition centres and ascertained who are at present taking this matter in hand. I do assure him I know of several centres where it is not any kind of wild, irresponsible people who have the thing in hand, but it is practically without exception the men who were duly elected to local offices of the various trade unions. They say that in many of the districts they are taking it in hand simply because they do not wish to see a matter of that kind get into the hands of merely irresponsible people.

The trouble is there. You have got to get through the trouble. You will either have to get through with wise guidance on the part of the local trade union leaders, or if they have nothing to do with it and wash their hands of it, then it will undoubtedly get into the hands of people in whose hands settlement will be much more difficult, if not altogether impossible. If there are some extremists in the trade union movement, as I have no doubt there are, I do say this, that the best friends that the extremists have got either in our trade union movement or in Ireland, are the Government. The Government is creating extremists all the time. The extremists would have no power but for the grievances the Government are creating, they are giving the extremists their opportunity. Therefore the best way if you wish to deal with the extremists is to remove discontent and try to get better relationships established between the Government and organised labour throughout the country. I ask the hon. Member whether he has yet reached any proposals with regard to the matter. Does he propose to close the door, or is he going to try to meet the views of the men? The men say that they wish you to honour what they regard as two undertakings on the part of the Government. Did you give those undertakings? And, if you gave those undertakings, do you mean to honour them? Those are quite clear straight definite issues. Let me say, in conclusion, that I have been very much astonished, indeed, in visiting various places recently at seeing a feeling springing up in this country which I did not believe possible, that is a deeper revolutionary feeling springing up among many of the workmen of this country. The old policy on the part of rulers here used to be that when grievances reached a certain point concessions were made, and very largely the steam was taken out of the movement, so far as the extreme elements were concerned. What you are now doing by coercive laws, by repressive laws, by the penal side of your Munitions Acts, and so on, is to try to dam up all this current of discontent, but the current will not be dammed up. I do assure you you will be astonished, and unless you are careful you will bring the country to the very verge of revolution. Only a week ago I saw 70,000 people—the estimate was made not by any labour people, but by one of the local newspapers—march through the streets of Glasgow with bands and banners, every one of the members of that procession wearing the revolutionary colours. That is an amazing thing to happen in a city like Glasgow. I say that to a very large extent it is the policy of the Government that is responsible for that. Now you have to choose whether you are going forward along this road of coercion, whether you are going to apply increasing repression to these men, or whether you are going to try to establish confidence and a sense of fair bargaining, the sense of justice and the sense of freedom. That is really the issue. I hope that in what I have said this afternoon I have avoided anything that would increase passion, anything likely to make matters worse. I do not want to make matters worse. I do hope the reply we may receive from the Front Government Bench will be an answer that will help to tone down or to remove that unrest that undoubtedly now exists.

The reason I have risen to answer is because at the moment my right hon. Friend is engaged in dealing with the difficulty which now exists in the country, and I think the House will agree with me that so long as there is any prospect of his being able to secure a settlement of this unhappy trouble out of the House he is better employed out of the House than here. I, however, will do my best, with my knowledge of the facts, to reply to the points which have been put in the course of this Debate. There was one part of the speech of my hon. Friend who has just sat down with which I was in entire agreement. That is the emphasis he laid on the psychological factor which lies at the bottom of this difficulty. Nobody who has my work to do, who sees the reports which come in day by day, or who from Monday morning till Saturday night is engaged in trying to settle these matters—my hon. Friend will believe that we try to settle these disputes on a basis of sympathy, common sense, and understanding—the disputes that are bound to arise in an organisation employing some two millions of workpeople—is likely to underestimate the extent to which the psychological factor bulks in all these troubles. It is true that many men now, after nearly three years of excessive labour, are nerve- tired. The strain has begun to tell on them. Things that in ordinary times they would have settled by ordinary means are now made the occasion for rash and extreme action. I sympathise as much as my hon. Friend with the strain which the great bulk of the munition workers of this country have had to bear, and which in the vast majority of cases has been loyally and patiently borne. Nobody, even with my knowledge, my limited knowledge, or at least the limited period of my work in connection with these difficulties, is at all likely to say anything to underestimate that part of the question.

But there was one thing I missed from the speech of my hon. Friend. I should have liked to hear it. I did not hear one word from him in the course of his address as to the effect which the prolongation of this strike is going to have on the fate and fortune of the men in France. Every day this strike continues means that you lengthen the War. I should have liked my hon. Friend, in view of his undoubted influence with the workmen of this country, not only to have pointed out the faults and failings of the Government and of the Departments dealing with the men—I am as well aware of these things as he is—perhaps I could make out even a stronger case against the very fallible men who are trying to guide the destinies of the Departments through these troublous times—but to have gone a little further. He has made out his side of the case with subtlety and with skill, but I should have liked him to have said something to the men in the country whom his voice will reach of the effect of a stoppage of work on aeroplane engines, tank parts, on "spares" for our motor transports, and on the repairs to the big guns. On that side of the case he might have used his voice for the benefit of those in the country who are willing to listen to him. I am sorry to have to say that now, because my hon. Friend knows he and I have often met together, and have tried to accommodate the differences between us. I shall continue to do. That, then, is the side of the case which is in my mind throughout the whole of this business. Our idea in dealing with this business is to get this dispute settled at the earliest possible moment by almost any means consistent with self-respect, in order that the supplies for the men at the front may not be held up or shortened. Can my hon. Friend, from his knowledge of the Ministry of Munitions, say that we have ever been unwilling to make fair and honest attempts to meet grievances where they exist?

My hon. Friend has brought a good many to me, and we have never been unwilling to discuss them, or, where possible, to meet them. Just as my hon. Friend now fairly acknowledges that that has been the case, so it is now the case in this more serious difficulty. I agree as to the part which delay in getting arbitration cases settled has had on the minds and temper of the men, but that is being dealt with. The Amendment which I put down on the Munitions of War (Amendment) Bill is intended to enable my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour to make more effective the machinery which he is now setting up for expediting the hearing and decision of disputes. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Labour did not wait until this question was impressed upon him here. One of the first things he did when he took his present office was to set going all the means in his power for increasing the facilities which existed for getting these disputes settled. I think that is a side of the case which should be put.

Will my hon Friend pardon me for interrupting? I did say that now the matter had become serious steps were being taken to deal with it. The point that I did make was that you had allowed these grievances to continue from the passing of the Munitions Act of 1915 up to the present time, and during that time the trouble had been growing.

I think that during that time the number of cases of complaint had been steadily growing. As soon as my right hon. Friend took his present office he took the only means in his power to get rid of them. When a Government Department can say that I think it is able to say a good deal. I shall be glad of the assistance of my hon. Friend in getting the Bill through the House which makes it possible to speed up the machinery for expediting the hearing of these cases. Let me take the particular dispute to which reference was made by my hon. Friend.

What the hon. Gentleman should do is to bring in a Bill for expediting these—

Perhaps my hon. Friend will allow me to continue in my own way. Let me take the Rochdale dispute which, he has said, was the spark which set a light to the fire that is now burning in some parts of the country. That case, I know, is pleaded in some quarters as an explanation of the difficulty. I do not think the plea is a very sound one. In this case we dealt with the employers with a severity which we have not exercised where bodies of workmen had been guilty of breaches of the Munitions Act I could give my hon. Friend a number of cases of breaches of the Munitions Act—by bodies of workmen where leniency much greater has been shown than was shown to this particular firm. I am not, however, prepared to put the case to the House on this ground; that the Department has never made mistakes in dealing with these cases. Looking back upon this particular case I will admit that the judgment of the officials dealing with the case did not work along the same lines as my own would have done. But these are men also working at great pressure; some of them working at quite as great pressure as the munition workers of the country. If they thought it was better to try to get this dispute settled and a principle acknowledged by conciliation rather than by prosecution, who shall say that they were wrong? It is very easy to do that when you look at the whole of the facts in a detached way, but from the moment this case was brought to Ministerial notice the firm was seen, and it was not a question of weeks, but only of hours, before we managed to get a recognition of the principle that that firm had disputed for years. Although the cause of the trouble there was removed we still went on with the prosecution, and we managed to get the firm substantially fined. That was much severer action than we had taken in dealing with bodies of workmen in somewhat analogous cases.

Will the hon. Gentleman be good enough to tell the House what was the amount of the fine; What penalty was inflicted on these employers?

I do not know what more the Courts could have done under the circumstances. I dwell upon that case because it is very undesirable that the idea should get about that there is some prejudice on the part of the Ministry in favour of the employers as against the workmen. I do not know anything from my knowledge of the work that justifies any such criticism. It is the most serious criticism that could be made against a Department of State employing such large numbers of men as the Ministry employs.

I come to the two particular questions to which my hon. Friend has attributed the present labour trouble—first, the dilution of private work which is made possible by the Bill which I introduced into the House and of which the Committee stage has been taken, and, secondly, the abrogation of the trade card scheme. Let me take first the abrogation of the trade card scheme. My hon. Friend is not satisfied that there is sufficient grounds for an alteration of that scheme. Just let me inform the House of the history of it. That scheme was one which gave exemption from military service to all members of certain trade unions. It was an agreement which was entered into between the Government and a certain group of trade unions by which the members of those unions who could produce their card of membership should be exempted from military service. What happened? Day after day I was questioned in this House—I am not quite certain by my hon. Friend, but certainly by my hon. Friends who take his point of view—as to the injustice of this trade card scheme. Over and over again I was criticised on behalf of the Department because we did not succeed in getting some other arrangement which would be more just to those trade unions which had not been parties to the trade card agreement. The representative of the non-craft unions protested against the injustice and anomaly of the scheme under which their members, so they said, were being proselytised by the members of the skilled trade unions. My hon. Friend knows the case better even than I do. A case was, in fact, established here in the House for a reconsideration of that scheme. It was not done in a corner. The Cabinet had the matter under consideration. I was authorised to announce here, in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for North-West Lanark, how the thing stood. The only criticism that was then made was not that we did not substitute another scheme for the trade card scheme, but that the Government were so long about the alternative scheme. The trade card scheme was an experiment which, in experience, proved to be a costly experiment. Not only was it that, but it ostracised that great body of members belonging to non-craft unions. It did not protect certain classes of men whose skill was essential to the country in connection with the proper conduct of the War, whilst it did protect many men whose skill was not so essential. In my view, the only ground on which a man is entitled to exemption from military service is that he is so skilled or has some aptitude that is more useful in the workshop than he could be in the Army. That is the principle underlying the schedule of exempted occupations. I believe that schedule to be a more common-sense and a more scientific way of meeting the difficulty, and, although my hon. Friend said that he spoke on behalf of some of the trade unions, I can tell him that the schedule, with the explanations given to the Amalgamated Society of Engineers and the other trade unions, has been accepted by their accredited representatives, and we have the signatures—

I expressed no view about the trade card system at all, and did not enter into its merits or demerits. I asked whether this system had been made the matter of a pledge between the Government and certain workmen, whether this pledge had been broken, and whether the breaking of this pledge had contributed to the unrest?

I am within the recollection of the House, and I do not think I have done the hon. Member an injustice. I have dealt with this on the merits of the new scheme. With the explanations which have been given to the unions we have now the agreement of their accredited representatives that they are prepared to give the new scheme a trial. I would like to appeal to my hon. Friend to assist the accredited representatives in seeing that that scheme does get a fair trial, and that he will be willing in this case, as in the other to which I appealed to him, to use his great influence to see that that is done. I had no intention of burking the particular question which my hon. Friend has repeated, and that is, is this new schedule a breach of the undertaking which was given to the engineers? Well, I referred to this question when I was speaking on the Second Reading of the Munitions of War (Amendment) Bill, and I told my hon. Friend on that occasion that the Government was forced to the conclusion that it was necessary to ask for a new arrangement. I do not believe it is possible for any conditions to be laid down in regard to the practical conduct of labour in this War to say that it shall never be varied, and not to ask those who were parties to it to agree to varying it. I believe it is impossible. I say it is a superficial point of view to ask the Government engaged in the conduct of a war, where the country is fighting for its life, to say that never at any time, or under any conditions, will you have to vary certain arrangements which have been come to. What was done was this: The trade unions were consulted; a great many agreed; some of them did not. What were you to do in those circumstances? Were the Government to wait until every one of the trade unions was prepared to agree? If so, it would have meant that it would have been held up by possibly one trade union. The same consideration applies to the dilution of private work. There we have got an agreement with the great body of the trade unions in the shipbuilding and engineering federations. They were willing to treat this proposal for diluting private work in the same way as war work has been diluted. The question was put to the engineers. The engineers were not so willing to agree. They said, "The responsibility must be yours as a Government." In those circumstances, what could the Government do? Believing that here was a proposal which was essential if you were to keep up the supply of munitions for the Army, what could the Government do but put those proposals in the form of a Bill and ask the House to agree to them? I for my part am not afraid to go and justify the part I played in this Bill to any body of workmen in any part of this country. The case for it is so clear that I should hesitate to assume the responsibility of any man who tried to destroy a measure of that kind, required as it is in the true interests of labour both now and after the War.

I am sorry to have detained the House so long. I will conclude by saying a word with regard to the question which my hon. Friend has put as to the present situation. I hesitate to say anything on a position which is exceedingly difficult. The difficulty is widespread, but certainly the position to-day is no more serious than it was at the end of last week, and there are factors in the problem which give us ground for hope that the worst is past. In Lancashire, where it was alleged that dilution of private work would bring out all the men, I am glad to say most of the towns are working to-day. In other parts of the country there is a sign that the men are beginning to feel that they have been misled—and they have been in some cases shamefully misled—with regard to what the Munitions of War (Amendment) Bill meant. When the position is understood by them I am satisfied that they will show the same patriotism, the same readiness to put up with hardships, with strain and inconvenience, as they have shown through the long years of the War. I should like it to go out from the House to-day from this box that the statements which have been made—I would like to know the source of those statements, and the driving power behind them, that this Bill was intended to enable the employer to continue the dilution of labour after the War, was intended to continue to prevent the workman using his right to strike after the War—I should like it, I say, to go out from here that that never was true, that whoever is responsible for those statements was playing the part of Germany; and it is not the merits of the trade card scheme, or the dilution of private work, which have brought the men out, but scandalous statements of that type, sedulously spread and never discouraged by those who ought to know better.

It will be within the recollection of the House of Commons that Irish Members on many occasions since the outbreak of the War have had to complain of War Office methods in Ireland, particularly in regard to recruiting. Our main case on that subject was made some months ago by the Leader of the Irish party—a case which, I venture to say, convinced the House that we had grave reason to complain, not merely of the attitude of the officers and agents of the War Office in Ireland, but of the action and attitude of the War Office itself. So strong was that case that there was no answer and no justification attempted for it. The Prime Minister, it may be remembered, himself admitted from that box that not only had grave blunders been made, but that a great deal of folly and incompetence had been shown as well. He went so far as to say that the revelation of War Office methods which had been made by the Leader of the Irish party made it hard for one to believe that behind it all there was not a considerable amount of malice. After that exposure I am sure the Members of the House of Commons no doubt will have begun to believe that there would be an end of the complaints, that there would be an end of the system, that there would be an end of the prejudice and the malice which have been shown with reference to recruiting and the conduct of War Office officials in Ireland. But, I am sorry to say, from time to time we have since then many glaring cases to bring forward where the old spirit was continuing to be shown. We have found that the mischievous spirit of bigotry and prejudice, even from week to week, is constantly cropping up in Ireland, and that the War Office, when their attention has been drawn to the matter, is not taking the proper steps required to suppress it. There was, for instance, since the chief exposure was made, cases of men transferred in large numbers from Irish regiments to English and Scottish regiments. Then we had the case of the Mechanical Transport men, and my intention this afternoon is to call attention to the latest case of the spirit of bigotry and prejudice which has been shown in this connection in Ireland. This occurred in connection with recruiting for the Royal Flying Corps in the City of Belfast, and I am sorry to say that, although the attention of the Under-Secretary of State for War was drawn to this case, and the facts were given to him in a question by my hon. Friend the Member for West Belfast on the 10th May, the officer responsible for what has happened in this case has so far appeared to receive the approval and support of the War Office through the hon. Gentleman.

What happened in this case? A lieutenant, S. T. Ravenscroft, of the Lancashire Hussars, attached to the Royal Flying Corps, was sent to Belfast to do recruiting work in connection with recruits for the Royal Flying Corps. In the course of discharging his duties there he had to give out recruiting advertisements to the Belfast papers, and these were given out by him to the Belfast daily papers through the Belfast office of the Dublin "Irish Times." I want to know from the Under-Secretary, in the first instance, why were those advertisements issued through the Belfast office of a Unionist newspaper, and why were they not sent out directly on the part of the War Office? Here is the advertisement—not a very long advertisement or a very important one:

"ROYAL FLYING CORPS.

Young Men of Good Education,

From 18 to 25 years of age,

Can now be accepted for training as

Flying Officers. Applications can also be received from Cadets

serving."

Then particulars are given as to where they are to apply. There are, I understand, in Belfast, three Unionist daily papers and only one Nationalist daily paper, and I would like to point out to the House that this Nationalist daily paper in Belfast is the organ of the Nationalists all over the province, and the only Nationalist daily newspaper, not alone in Belfast but in the province of Ulster, and is read widely by Nationalist readers all through the province. This advertisement for recruits for the Flying Corps was inserted once in the "Irish News," this Nationalist newspaper, and twelve times in each of the three Unionist papers circulating in Belfast. If that is the only complaint I had on this occasion I would not bring it before the House, because, even although favouritism might be shown in a matter of that kind, I am not raising this for the sake of any financial interest involved to the "Irish News," but for the injustice, for the prejudice, for the bigotry that has been shown, and because of an amazing letter that was written by this Lieutenant Ravenscroft to the manager of the "Irish News," when his attention was drawn to the discrimination that had been shown in the issue of this advertisement. I will read Lieutenant Ravenscroft's letter, which was written in reply to a letter from the Manager of the "Irish News," complaining of what he had done:

"Room 47,

City Hall, Belfast.

28th April, 1917.

Sir—In reply to your numerous inquiries and letter to-day, asking that an advertisement may be inserted in your paper, you suggest that, owing to your paper being a Nationalist one, it is being boycotted, and that requests for insertions have been refused by my representative here. I therefore wish to inform you that, in the first place, I have no representative, and that politics or religion have no place in any military matters."

I think it would have been better if the letter had said "should have no place" and not "have no place" in military matters. The writer goes on:

"You suggest that it is desirable to obtain the services of men from all classes for this corps."

That is a misquotation, because the manager in applying for the advertisement did not say "from all classes," and what he did say was:

"We should be glad if you will look into the matter, as we feel sure your desire is to promote recruiting for the corps from all sections of the community."

Lieutenant Ravenscroft proceeds in his letter:

"You suggest that it is desirable to obtain the services of men from all classes for this corps, and I wish to point out that this is not the case. My duty here is to interview applicants who will be suitable to hold commissions, and be able to handle men, and also be healthy enough to withstand the strain of flying. Consequently the type of man desirable is the one that has been well educated and been used to sports, where an element of danger is always incurred. Therefore any advertisement must be inserted in a paper, or papers, which reach this class of man."

He refuses to insert this advertisement in the Nationalist paper, which circulates all over the Province of Ulster, practically saying that these Nationalists are not healthy, educated, used to sports in which an element of danger is always incurred. He goes on to say:

"On March 29th I inserted an advertisement in your paper, and when interviewing recruits asked them in which paper they had seen the notice. Out of forty-two applicants as the result of advertising in two papers, five applications were from soldiers serving, seventeen did not pass the medical examination, and fifteen never completed the required forms, and five were accepted as cadets. Many other applications were received, but from men who were obviously unsuited to commissioned rank. Since the advertisement was withdrawn the percentage of the latter has noticeably decreased, and also as regards the class of man whose work and long hours have naturally made it impossible for him to pass the medical requirements."

Then he concludes:

"I think you will now understand my reasons for not continuing my advertisement, so I hope that you will cease to worry me by calls from your representative and letters, as I have quite enough to do with my duties without being interfered with in this way.

I am, Sir, your truly,

S. T. RAVENSCROFT, Lieutenant,

Interviewing Officer, Royal Flying Corps."

My observation upon this letter is that if they wanted only gentlemen of education for the Flying Corps they had better send this person himself to go and learn to write a grammatical letter. That is the complaint I have to make against the War Office. The Under-Secretary's attention has been called to this case, and he has refused, so far, to take any action. That has been the spirit adopted all along in connection with War Office transactions in Ireland, and you will not fairness or what is right unless you send this gentleman to the right-about, take off this duty, transfer him out of our country and put in his place somebody who will be a fit and proper person to do what is right in a matter of this kind.

Before I deal with the speech which has just been delivered, perhaps the House will allow me to reply to the speech of the hon. Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. Wing). I think the main point which he brought before the House was the question of leave, which the House realises has been brought before us on a great many occasions, and I do not think any War Office subject has been more discussed than the granting of leave to our gallant soldiers serving at the front. As I have stated on many occasions, the whole question lies within the discretion of the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief in any given theatre of war. It depends upon two considerations. First of all, the military exigencies of the time, and, secondly, and more particularly now, the availability of transport. Every General Officer Commanding-in-Chief in every theatre of war has been, and is now giving, his most earnest consideration to this question, and I can assure my hon. Friend and the House that there is no desire on his part, or upon the part of the commanding officers, to keep a soldier at the front longer than is absolutely necessary, and whenever transports are available leave is given in accordance with the procedure generally followed in the various regiments. My hon. Friend went on to lay before the House a certain grievance with respect to the tribunals, and he asked that the War Office should issue instructions to better control their proceedings. I do not need to remind the House that the tribunals were created in order to stamp out the Prussianising influence of the part of the War Office, and they were created to safe- guard the interests of civilians when the War Office attempted to make any inroads on those safeguards. My hon. Friend knows that we cannot issue instructions to the tribunals, and they receive their instructions from the Local Government Board.

I did not say I wished instructions issued to the tribunals. What I said was that the military representative continually reminded the tribunals that he was acting under instructions, and I want the tribunals to have knowledge of those instructions.

I assume that every military representative knows his duty, and the tribunals are there to control the actions of the military representative. If the military representative puts forward a case with which they do not agree, there is no necessity to accept his view, and they can resist any attempt which he may make to bring forward an unfair case. In fact, the whole of the jurisdiction rests with the tribunal.

Yes, that is his duty, and he goes before another tribunal. When he goes before the Central Tribunal there is no military evidence there, and it is purely civilian. If my hon. Friend will argue out the case in his quieter moments, I think he will find that the War Office have very little control over the tribunals, the Appeal Tribunal or the Central Tribunal. With regard to separation allowances in certain cases, my hon. Friend referred to the case of the apprentice and the student. I have always had a great deal of sympathy with the case of the apprentice and the mother or father. Very often you find the poorest people in the land struggling to give the very best education they can to their sons upon the unwritten understanding that when they succeed in life they will not forget the people who supported them in their younger days. The pre-enlistment basis does not affect those cases, but I will promise the House and my hon. Friend that I will do my best to bring this case to the notice of the proper authority and try to get it remedied in this particular instance, and if possible to adopt the general principle that the case of the apprentice and the student should be treated in a more liberal way.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that promise. The case I raised was that of the dependants of the father at the Front with two sons having less than the father who remained at home.

7.0 P.M.

I have taken a special note of that particular case. With regard to the speech of the hon. Member for North Galway (Mr. Hazleton). I am not going to argue upon the general treatment of Ireland by the War Office so far as recruiting is concerned, for that is a question of general policy which has been debated in this House upon more than one occasion. With regard to this particular point, I must join issue with the hon. Member when he asserts that we are now pursuing, as far as recruiting is concerned in Ireland, a policy of bigotry and prejudice. In endeavouring to substantiate that charge, the hon. Member brought forward the case of some pledge that was given that Irishmen should not be utilised in any regiments except Irish regiments.

I have always accepted that pledge as having been given, and I do not think there is a single case brought to my notice of an Irishman serving in a Scottish regiment—I do not know why they should not be proud to serve in a Highland regiment—where re-transference has not taken place.

The hon. Gentleman some time ago wrote to me with regard to an Irish soldier in a Scottish regiment who wanted to transfer to an Irish regiment. I wrote him and told him what the hon. Gentleman had stated, and he made his application to the Commanding Officer in accordance with the advice which the hon. Gentleman gave in is communication, but the Commanding Officer said that he could not transfer him, and he did not care a button what was said in Parliament.

That was one peculiar case. I know that Commanding Officers generally have been quite anxious—and, indeed, willing—to execute any instructions that have been issued to them by the War Office so far as the transference of Irishmen to Irish regiments is concerned. I do not think my memory plays me false when I say that we have retransferred no fewer than 8,000 men of various regiments—Scottish, English, Irish, and Welsh—to regiments of their own country, and when you take into con- sideration the fact that those transferences in almost all cases are done individually I think you will agree that the War Office have shown themselves desirous of fulfilling any pledge that may have been given. A particular case was brought to my notice at Question time by my hon. Friend the Member for West Belfast (Mr. Devlin), and so far as it was possible I gave an answer to all the relevant questions that were asked. My hon. Friend asked me if I had inquired into the politics and so forth of this lieutenant who is over serving in Belfast. I have never thought it my duty to inquire into the private views of any officer, and I should not like, unless a serious complaint were brought to my notice, to pledge myself in any case to make inquiries into what I regard as the sacrosanct conscience of any officer in the British Army. The Royal Flying Corps is very anxious to get the very best men available, not only in England and Scotland, but in Ireland as well, and it has always made it a practice to examine those men at personal interviews from wherever they come. A great many men were anxious to join the Royal Flying Corps in Ireland; and, in order to save them trouble, we sent, I think to Dublin and certainly to Belfast, two Royal Flying Corps officers to examine them at a personal interview. The officer who went to Belfast was a Lieutenant Ravenscroft. He had to prepare a very common, ordinary advertisement, which required no great brains, to go into various newspapers, announcing that at a certain time he would be prepared to interview any officers for the Royal Flying Corps, and he had to use his own discretion. The gravamen of the charge made against him is that he issued this advertisement to the Unionist Press of Ulster on more than one occasion and only once to the Nationalist Press.

I have a great deal of sympathy with my hon. Friend. I find in my own constituency in the North of Scotland that a Unionist paper for which I have the greatest possible respect gets an advertisement while the Liberal paper which supports me does not get one at all. I have never thought it my duty, however, to criticise the recruiting authority in the North because of things of that sort. It is a matter for the judg- ment of the individual, and it really passes my comprehension that hon. Gentlemen should come forward in the House of Commons and because a young officer goes across to Belfast, and, using his discretion, puts an advertisement more than once in a paper that supports one side of politics, and only once in a paper that supports another side of politics, talk of it as bigotry and prejudice.

Until I have heard both sides I can only say it seems a very fair letter. From the passages which were read by my hon. Friend, I gather that the point which he wished to emphasise was the officer's mention of the selection of men from certain classes. I cannot see anything offensive in that. Everybody knows Nationalist Ireland has men eminently fitted for the Royal Flying Corps; in fact, I am perfectly certain that a very large proportion of the men in Nationalist Ireland who are in the Royal Flying Corps have become officers. They are men who are not afraid of danger, as their fellow countrymen have shown. It is not accurate to say that this was an insult to Nationalist Ireland. I do not think for a single moment that this young lieutenant ever thought—he had not sufficient knowledge of politics—that he would be insulting my colleagues of the Nationalist party by writing a sentence of that sort in a letter to a Nationalist paper. I will, however, promise my hon. Friends to make further inquiries into the case. If the officer meant to be insulting, he had no grounds for attempting to insult any editor in any part of the country. I do not think that he had any intention of insulting the editor, but he has not got the same skill in epistolatory narrative as, say, the hon. Member for West Donegal (Mr. Hazleton); he is simply and solely a young officer who has probably no great educational training, but who goes there and tries to do his duty in the best way possible. To come here and make a Parliamentary case of bigotry and prejudice upon grounds so simple and innocent as that is not worthy of the great traditions of the two Parliamentarians, one of whom has spoken, and the other of whom I understand is about to speak. I promise that I will have further inquiries made, and I would advise my hon. Friends really not to regard it as a matter of bigotry and prejudice. If there has been a mistake made, it is an administrative mistake by an officer who is not skilled in epistolatory narrative.

I do not know much about the capacity of this officer in epistolatory narrative, but I confess the hon. Gentleman has not displayed his usual ability in his role of defender of blazing indiscretions. The hon. Gentleman must understand that we have not come here to attack any young officer, but to call attention to a matter that is bigger than the question of the mere personality of a young officer, however lacking he may be in literary dialectics. The hon. Gentleman has to-night occupied a somewhat extraordinary rôle. He has defended this transaction. What is it? An officer, whether young or old, went over to perform a recruiting duty in Ireland. He issued advertisements to the newspapers. I take it that his function was not to take part in politics or to discuss religion. This young, innocent officer in Ireland issued one advertisement to a Nationalist paper, the oldest Nationalist paper in Ulster, which circulates all over the province and which is largely bought by that educated and sporting class in Ireland which he said he wanted. This is a paper that is read entirely by the sporting element. It is given one advertisement, and the other papers, the papers that represent prohibition, teetotalism, trade unionism and all the other great triumphant powers that to-day operate, got twelve insertions each. They got thirty-six insertions against one insertion in the Belfast Nationalist paper. It may be a very innocent transaction on the part of a young and inexperienced soldier who has not a firm grip of the powers of epistolatory narrative, but it seems to an ordinary common-sense person, like those who sit on these benches, a gross misuse of the powers given to him by the War Office. The hon. Gentleman, instead of getting up and dissociating himself with this transaction, declared it to be a most innocent performance. I am sure every impartial-minded man in the House of Commons will agree that it is absolutely indefensible. In referring to the letter which the officer wrote, the hon. Gentleman stated that he had not heard the communication which called for it. I will read the letter The manager of this paper stated: is that he wants to get young, educated, and sportingly inspired recruits for the Royal Flying Corps. Where does he expect to get them? Does he expect to get them by giving only one advertisement to the sporting daily paper, the only paper that gives real sport, and giving thirty-six advertisements to the teetotal and General Assembly papers? Long live the War Office! It is another magnificent example of the prescience and genius with which they have managed recruiting, not only in regard to this branch, but with regard to all other branches in the War Office. You see the sorry spectacle to-day of no recruits coming from Ireland. We know what is responsible for that. It is these very methods that are responsible for it. You suppose that our men are good enough to go into the trenches and to die in the trenches. They are educated enough for that. They have courage and heroism, but when you have your fine, nice, comfortable jobs to give away this is how you act. There is no respectability among soldiers. Smug respectability is not known to the men who can fight for the Empire, but by the declaration you have made you want to surround these things with respectability, and it is from the readers of these ancient, antiquated, reactionary, teetotal and Presbyterian papers that you are to find the material out of which British soldiers are to be made.

The hon. Gentleman not only stood as the defender of those who are incapable of epistolatory narrative; he also stood in his place to tell us how unselfish he was in Scotland. He stood there not as the defender of the Service, but as the self-sacrificing Scotsman—a rôle I do not quite appreciate or understand. He stated, as a proof of his splendid self-abnegation and his unselfish Scottish spirit, that he never complained when in his Constituency advertisements were being distributed in larger number to the Unionist papers than to the Liberal papers. That shows that it did not affect him personally, because no Scotsman would ever have suffered under such an insult. The hon. Gentleman is in the War Office and we are in the political trenches. That makes all the difference. He is not going to attack the War Office for the partisan spirit which is shown by this distribution of War Office advertisements, because he is the defender of the War Office. But we are free agents in this House. We are Members of Parliament, defending whatever interests require to be defended. When we come here to call attention to these things, there is no analogy whatever between the position of the hon. Gentlemen and ours. Probably the House thinks that the whole thing is a very small matter. Nobody cares very much for the value of this transaction. What we object to is the spirit which it displays. Why should Nationalist papers not be treated in a spirit of equality with Unionist papers. That is bad enough, but when we are told, as a justification for it, that the reason why Nationalist papers have not had these advertisements inserted in them is that you want well-educated young men for the service who are of sporting proclivities, that is an insult which is resented. I therefore warn the hon. Gentleman that these gentlemen should take their instructions from some civil direction. The responsibility of determining a question of this sort ought not to be left to a young officer going over to Ireland, who is ignorant of the conditions existing there. There should be one clear, unmistakable and impartial principle laid down in these matters, that every paper, whether Unionist or Nationalist, whether Catholic or Protestant, should be equally served in the distribution of these advertisements. Above all, when a blunder is made, let it not be said as a justification that it was made because educated young Irishmen of sporting proclivities only read the organs of the Temperance League, or the "Irish Times" or other Unionist organs. I trust that the effect of this Debate will be that the hon. Gentleman will give such instructions and that it will not be possible for a similar thing to occur in the future.

The hon. Gentleman has stated that he does not know of any case where an Irish soldier in an English or Scottish regiment has applied for a transfer to an Irish regiment where that concession or right has not been granted. I have written to the hon. Gentleman in many instances. I have called his attetion to young Irishmen who joined, who did not think of what regiment they joined at the time and who asked to be transferred to Irish regiments for reasons best known to themselves and reasons which are perfectly defensible. It is not because they did not want to be in a Scottish regiment. We are all just as proud of the valour of the Scottish soldiers as the hon. Gentleman, but, fortunately, this War is not confined to any race or creed, it has the universal assent of all concerned in the cause of liberty and humanity. No later than a fortnight ago I received a letter from the hon. Gentleman in regard to a young soldier who wanted to be transferred from a Scottish regiment to an Irish regiment. He told me it would be done, and that this young fellow should apply to the commanding officer. I wrote and stated to the young fellow's father that he would be transferred if he applied to the commanding officer, and that I had received such an assurance in Parliament. I have since received a letter which I will show to the hon. Gentleman. It came from the young fellow's father enclosing a reply to the boy's request, and the reply was that the commanding officer would not transfer him, that he did not care what they said in Parliament, and that what they said in Parliament did not concern him in the least degree. No doubt it does not. There are bigger people than this irresponsible officer who do not care what this Parliament says. Those who have the custody of the affairs of this nation in their hands are doing a great deal to lower the power of this Parliament. However, that was the answer given. I will give all the facts to the hon. Gentleman. I hope this is the last time we shall have to make any complaints as to the treatment of these soldiers who desire to be transferred to Irish regiments.

The point I wish to touch on is with regard to explosions in Government factories and controlled establishments. We all know of the terrific explosion that occurred in the East End of London nearly four months ago, and we have seen reports in the papers of other smaller explosions, fortunately with less loss of life than occurred in the first instance. In the explosion in the East End of London it was reported in the House of Lords that no less than 69 persons were killed, 98 seriously injured, of whom four died, 320 were slightly injured, all being hospital cases, and between 500 and 600 people received wounds. I do not know how many houses were destroyed, but in fact a small town was blown up as if it might have been in the fighting line in France or Belgium. I asked a question about that explosion, and was informed that a Committee had been appointed to inquire into it, and that nothing could be said until the Committee had reported. I see that the Committee reported on 23rd February. I waited, but received no further information, and eventually, on 17th April, I asked when the Report of the Committee would be published. I was then informed that it had been decided not to publish it. On receipt of this information, I put down a further question asking who was the official responsible for laying down the necessary precautions to be observed in the factory and who was the official responsible for the accumulation of explosives in the factory at the time the explosion occurred. I was informed that it would be unfair to mention the names, but that the Minister of Munitions accepted full responsibility in the matter. I have never been able to gather what the statement that the Minister of Munitions accepts full responsibility really means. We have had no explanation upon that. Perhaps the hon. Member who is going to reply will tell us what it does mean. Does it mean that the Minister of Munitions will stand his trial for manslaughter? If an explosion occurred in a private factory or on a railway, or in any other establishment of that sort, a public inquiry would be held, and if there had been anything amounting to culpable negligence brought to light the person concerned would be prosecuted. Nothing has been done in this case so far. The matter rested where it was, so I put a further question on the subject asking whether the Government factories and controlled establishments would be put on the same footing as private establishments. The reply I received was:

"It is not considered desirable to bring Governmen factories under the provisions of the Explosives Act. All practical precautions will be taken by the responsible authorities."

It is not right or proper that the inquiries into accidents in Government factories should be held by those responsible authorities. There ought to be a public and independent inquiry into all accidents or explosions of that nature. We have seen recurring explosions reported in the papers and the time has come when some steps ought to be taken to reassure the country in this respect. We do not know what happened in the East London explosion. We do not know what the accumulation of explosives was. There must have been thousands of pounds of explosives there to cause such an enormous catastrophe. Whether anybody was responsible for such an accumulation, whether it ought to have been allowed and whether anybody had tried to prevent it, none of us know, and it has been kept secret up till to-day. Whether or not there was culpable negligence in that case, the point is that we have to provide for the future. I trust that the Government will now take this into consideration. I do not ask for further legislation, as that would be out of order on the present Motion, but I ask that something should be done to institute in the case of any further accident a thoroughly independent and impartial inquiry, not under the orders of the Departments concerned, but an inquiry perfectly independent and free, so that the country might feel reassured, if by any chance there should be culpable negligence on the part of any person, that person will be brought to book. We have never heard a word whether in connection with this explosion anyone has even been censured or any comment at all has been passed on what took place there, and the country would be glad to know that that awful catastrophe will be thoroughly inquired into and that such a thing shall never occur again.

I wish to draw the attention of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hodge) to an omission from all the financial speeches from the Front Bench, which cannot have been unintentional and which has a very direct bearing upon the work of his Department. I refer to the connection, close and immediate as it appears to me, between the labour unrest which is troubling him so much just now and the seemingly extravagant expenditure of vast sums of money by the Government. We have heard to-day a good deal about the psychological aspect of the munition worker, and there seemed to be agreement that the pressure at which these people had been working for the last two and a half years had no little connection with the tendency to friction of which we hear so much just now. It appears to me that that view, which was more or less agreed in, is really an unduly short one, because if one is to consider the psychological aspect of these people one has to go back for at least seventy years. The trouble has been brewing for three-quarters of a century, and it now faces the Minister of Munitions in the shape of a damnosa hereditas, which is all the inheritance that many of the third generation of slum dwellers in places like Glasgow have ever been blessed with. One is apt to forget that the class from which the munition workers are drawn in a place like Glasgow represent a population which has been deprived, through no doing of its own, certainly, of all but the barest minimum of the decencies of life. It is a town where six people out of ten live in houses consisting either of one room or, at the outside, two, and when I hear of 70,000 out of a population of 1,000,000 of that kind have been wearing red button-holes and waving green flags it does not surprise me in the least. In spite of what the hon. Member (Mr. Anderson) said, I think it is right to remember that what working men in Glasgow have done and accomplished to help the War vastly outweighs a Saturday afternoon procession of this kind, consisting very largely, I am told, of very young workmen. I am also told they amounted to nothing like 70,000 but probably 20,000 at the very outside. I do not know who found the money for a procession of that kind. These processions cost money. I shall be glad to hear if the Minister of Labour could tell us. I dare say he knows as well as anyone else. At all events I am not unduly alarmed by Glasgow Green processions of that kind.

I wish to make a suggestion to the Minister of Labour. I think the general attitude of suspicion among working men, suffering from the knowledge that they and their people for the last two or three generations have received an unduly small share of the money which has been made in this country, could be best counteracted by his taking counsel with the Treasury and spreading amongst these people substantial and reliable information as to how the expenditure of vast sums by the Government really affect their food, their wages and their working conditions and prospects. It is suspicion founded to a certain extent, but not altogether, on ignorance, which is the great trouble with which the right hon. Gentleman has to wrestle, and by some process of leaflets or propaganda of some kind he might find it possible to do a great deal to allay suspicion of that kind. I can quite imagine masses of working men—and some of them take a very close interest in this sort of thing—being a good deal annoyed when they hear even the Chancellor of the Exchequer say he does not know where excess profits are being paid and who are paying them, and, of course, the large sums upon which that is merely the tax exercise the minds of working men enormously. I do not suggest that information should be put about of the individual earnings of firms, although it need be I do not know that in some cases that would do very much harm, but trade by trade, expenditure of that kind might be made much more easy to follow by the working men and it would do a great deal to ease the work of the right hon. Gentleman. Predatory Socialism is the trouble with which he is wrestling now, and I do not believe that predatory Socialism is very much rooted in this country, but I am convinced that it has a certain amount of root and it is rooted and founded upon a corresponding amount of predatory capitalism. As no one is doing more than the right hon. Gentleman to bring about a better understanding between capital and labour, the House cannot exert itself too much to back him up in that direction, and I am quite sure that until predatory capitalism is dealt with by the House in the same way and as severely as predatory Socialism little progress will be made.

The hon. Member (Mr. Anderson) drew attention to one or two cases which I think he submitted not at all unfairly. As to the well-known Rochdale case, in my view to fine a large firm for a very serious breach of the Regulations under the Munitions of War Act at a time like the present, when so much is at stake, a sum of £10 is really trifling with a very serious situation. It is no answer to me to be told, as I was by the Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions, that no power exists to inflict a heavier fine. If that be the case the sooner more extended powers are got the better, because to all intents and purposes you might just as well fine a large firm two-pence or half a farthing or some absolutely nominal sum like that. It has no effect upon them whatever, and unless the process of fining firms is to be reduced to a level of absolute farce, I say give the Ministry or give the Courts power to inflict a penalty with some real substance in it, whether it be £500 or £1,000, but there should be something correspondingly severe to the penalties which were not meted out but were certainly threatened upon the poor woman, to whose case an hon. Member drew attention, who was within an ace of being fined, her sole offence being that she had been absent for a day or two days because her baby was dead. There was a woman assessor in Court and the fine was not inflicted, but at the same time it is quite true it very nearly was, and any member of that Birmingham tribunal would have been horrified if he had afterwards found out that a fine of that kind had actually been meted out to this poor creature in his name. I think we should get some very definite assurance from the Ministry of Munitions and the Ministry of Labour that all possible precautions are taken against a miscarriage of that kind.

With reference to the suggestion that committees should be established to supervise expenditure, I think we might make a good deal more use of the Public Accounts Committee, and the Reports it issues, than you really do. We have heard something about some of its activities this year. I read through the whole of their Report, and the remark in it that made most impression upon my mind has not been referred to at all. It was to the effect that practically by a stroke of the pen a very large sum—I think £3,000,000—was saved to the public purse by intervention at the last moment in respect of certain jute contracts. If it is possible by a stroke of the pen to save £3,000,000 of public money in respect of a contract for jute bags, I really think munition workers and the masses of organised labour are justified in thinking that their interests are sometimes a little overlooked. I said the other day that I would take the first opportunity of challenging the action of the Treasury in respect of the expenditure of certain public moneys in certain public salaries in Scotland. I believe technically I could raise it now, but as I understand inquiries are being prosecuted in Scotland, and in any case the Secretary for Scotland is not here, I shall say nothing just now, hut I do not want my silence to be misconstrued and to give the impression that I am satisfied with present conditions.

I wish to reply to my hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Yate) in what he said with regard to explosions, and more particularly the East-End explosion. In that case there was an absolutely independent inquiry by a Committee, appointed by the Home Office, consisting of one permanent official of the Home Office£I think the Home Office Inspector of Explosives, and a member of the Explosives Department of the Ministry of Munitions, and these three gentlemen considered the whole of the causes of the explosion, called a large number of witnesses before them, and made a Report. I wish I could publish that Report, but I cannot. It contains a description of the manufacture of a high explosive, and comments on the way in which it was manufactured. It makes suggestions of greater safety in manufacture of all these things, and it is impossible to-day to publish it, because very obviously it would be giving information which would be useful to other people in the manufacture of high explosives. The whole subject of that Report has naturally been considered by the Department concerned, the Ministry of Munitions, and the suggestions which have been put forward by that Committee are in course of being carried out, if they have not been carried out by now. My hon. and gallant Friend wanted to know what my right hon. Friend meant when he said he accepted the responsibility. My hon. and gallant Friend is far too old a public servant not to know what is meant when a Minister accepts responsibility. He does accept responsibility, and one of his responsibilities is to see that every possible precaution is taken in preventing explosions. But my hon. and gallant Friend must remember that this high explosive is comparatively new, and its action is not known in all circumstances; and while it is being manufactured, or while it is being purified, it may at any time behave in a strange and unexpected manner, and it is only by a certain degree of experience that we can find out what precautions are necessary and what are possible; and as we find out so we add to the safety of manufacture. The surprise to me is not that there have been explosions, however much we lament it, but that there have been so few in dealing with a highly explisive article which was manufactured in such large quantities.

They have, and there are rules in regard to that, and it is quite well recognised by all concerned that it would be a serious matter to break the rules against the accumulation in any one spot of too large a quantity of high explosives.

The rules are there for safety, and I think we must wait until a case arises of anyone actually breaking rules.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—[ Lord E. Talbot. ]

Supply.—[1st May.]

Civil Services and Revenue Departments Estimates, 1917–18

Class II

Resolutions reported, 1. "That a sum, not exceeding £91,150, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Commissioners of His Majesty's Works and Public Buildings."

Class I

2. "That a sum, not exceeding £3,600, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for Expenditure in respect of Osborne."

3. "That a sum, not exceeding £55,700, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for Expenditure in respect of the Royal Parks and Pleasure Grounds."

4. "That a sum, not exceeding £29,800, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for Expenditure in respect of Houses of Parliament Buildings."

5. "That a sum, not exceeding £25,400, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for Expenditure in respect of Miscellaneous Legal Buildings."

6. "That a sum, not exceeding £42,200, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for Expenditure in respect of Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain."

7. "That a sum, not exceeding £20,650, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge Which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for Expenditure in respect of Diplomatic and Consular Buildings, and for the maintenance of certain Cemeteries Abroad."

8. "That a sum, not exceeding £315,800, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for Expenditure in respect of Customs and Excise, Inland Revenue, Post Office and Telegraph Buildings in Great Britain, and certain Post Offices Abroad."

9. "That a sum, not exceeding £78,350, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for Expenditure in respect of Ministry of Labour, Employment Exchange and Insurance Buildings, Great Britain."

10. "That a sum, not exceeding £120,700, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for Expenditure in respect of sundry Public Buildings in Great Britain, not provided for on other Votes."

Resolutions agreed to.

Supply.—[28th April.]

Civil Services and Revenue Departments Estimates, 1917–18

Air Board

Resolution reported, "That a sum, not exceeding £1,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Air Board."

Resolution agreed to.

Trade Union (Amalgamation) Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

The Bill to which I ask the House to give a Second Reading is one that is very much overdue. If it had been on the Statute Book I believe that a great deal of trouble would have been saved to various Government Departments during the period of the War. It has been almost an impossible thing for unions engaged in the same craft to join together because of the difficulties of the old Trade Unions Acts, a two-thirds majority of the whole of the members being absolutely essential before amalgamation with another union took place. If we take a particular industry as an example where there are no less than nine different unions all catering for the same class of workmen, when an arbitration case in connection with a war bonus has come on the Committee of Production have had to listen to nine cases, one after the other, although the award in almost every instance, or in every instance, has been exactly the same because the same governing circumstances applied to the one as applied to the other. As a result of that there were delays. In order to obviate these delays I encouraged those responsible in my Department to make an endeavour to have national settlements, so that when a settlement was arrived at it would apply nationally. It does apply that way so far as munitions making is concerned, but outside the controlled establishments it does not apply. That, of course, will be remedied in the Munitions of War (Amendment) Act that is presently before the House; but if it were made possible that amalgamation between various craft unions could be made simple, and easier it would avoid not only the difficulties, such as I have enumerated, but it would get rid very largely of demarcation disputes, which are a prolific source of trouble in the trade Union world. Again, may I say, as has been evidenced in this House on many occasions, that it is practically impossible to get such a large vote of trade union members on a question of this kind, or, in fact, on any other question as is contained in the Trade Unions Act. If trade unionists had the right to vote by proxy as railway companies or limited companies have the difficulties would be easily overcome. Then again, under the last Amendment of the Trade Union Acts which was before this House a simple majority of the members voting has enabled them to carry the matter before them, so that in that respect the principle has already been established.

Further, my concern is more with the future than with the present. When we come to deal with the great problems of demobilisation and reconstruction it will undoubtedly be in the interests of workmen as well as of employers that they can meet with large units as against meeting in smaller bodies. Where you have a number of small units meeting together the jealousies and rivalries of each makes it almost impossible to come to a common understanding. When the War is over if we can have these larger units to deal with I think it will make the problem not only of demobilisation but of reconstruction easier to discuss and easier to settle. I do not know that it is necessary to say anything further so far as the merits of the Bill are concerned, but I might say this: Before asking the sanction of the Cabinet for the introduction of this Bill I took the trouble to consult various federations of employers. I had also the privilege of receiving trade union deputations upon the point, and the president of the largest federation of employers in this country said that they had no desire to interfere in the internal affairs of any trade union, and, having said that, he stated that if he were to speak as a private individual he would say that it was in the general interest that there should be fewer trade unions. When I speak with other large employers I find the same thing, and in one of the Departmental Committees which is presently sitting, dealing with after the War problems, they have expressed the opinion that such a Bill, if it accomplishes the purpose of getting various unions all catering for the same class of workmen to coalesce, it will be very much in the interests of the trade, and will make the settlement of labour difficulties and labour conditions much easier, as well as getting rid, as I have already indicated, of the troubles of demarcation.

I have listened with great interest to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman in introducing this Bill, and the first thing that became evident to me in his speech was that this Bill is certainly not a war measure. He said he looked forward to finding it of greater use for dealing with problems after the War than in dealing with problems of the present. He also gave us a number of instances of outside opinions expressed as to the desirability of the amalgamation of trade unions into a smaller number of unions. That may be, but what I think is most important, and what I think the Bill does not provide, is that we should be quite sure that a majority of the whole of the members of the unions themselves desire any particular amalgamation. That takes me one step further, namely, that when the amalgamation has been effected the members of all the unions amalgamating should recognise in the new unit created an organisation to which they owe respect, and to whose leaders they are prepared to give—I will not say absolute obedience —but at any rate to whose opinions they are prepared to defer in all matters of tradeinterest. The Clause in the Act of 1876 which this Bill proposes to amend proceeded on a very different basis. It is the Amendment of the Act of 1871, and Clause 12 says this:

"Any two or more trade unions may, by the consent of not less than two-thirds of the members of each or every such trade union, become amalgamated together as one trade union, with or without any dissolution or division of the funds of such trade unions, or either or any of them; but no amalgamation shall prejudice any right of a creditor of either or any union party thereto."

8.0 P.M.

That Clause provides two things, that the majority required shall be two-thirds not of the Members who vote on the matter, who take sufficient interest in it to vote, and who because they voted will necessarily feel bound by the opinion of the majority in the decision arrived at, but two-thirds of all the members of the Union. At one step in this Bill we are proceeding by two stages apparently. Those words are to be altered, and there is to be substituted for them, for what I have read, "by the consent of a majority of the members of each or every such trade union, voting by ballot on the question." I take it that that means by the majority of the members who actually vote by ballot. The right hon. Gentleman says that it has been found difficult to get two-thirds of the members of the unions to vote on such a question as this, or on any question. He is quite right. When we had a Debate in 1911–12 on the Trade Union No. 2 Bill, the present Attorney-General, in 1911, quoted a number of very pertinent incidents to the House. The question at issue was trade unions deciding to go into political objects. But the actual purpose of the vote does not very much affect the argument I want to put before the House. The present Attorney-General quoted certain cases in the Debate on the Second Reading of the Bill, which was first introduced in 1911. He said:

The right hon. Gentleman made a suggestion which, I think, might be incorporated in the Bill in the Committee stage. Of course, there are difficulties which we want to overcome. He said that members of trade unions, like shareholders in limited companies, might vote by proxy. I am not sufficiently familiar with the subject to accept that without surprise. I thought that they could, in fact, vote by proxy through accredited representatives at the meetings, but if they cannot, as far as I am concerned, I have not the slightest wish to put any difficul- ties in the way. I only want to be sure before we pass a Bill, which is admittedly not a War measure at all, which is going to have very far-reaching effects indeed, because it is to enable all the trade unions of the country to amalgamate into one trade union, if necessary for any purpose, that we should be quite certain as to whether it is in the public interest or not, that at least the majority of the whole of the members of the trade unions concerned should in some simple method express their wish to be amalgamated. Surely I am not putting it very high when I point out that at one step we are jumping from the protection in the Act of 1876, that two-thirds of both unions concerned in an amalgamation, or of all the unions concerned in an amalgamation, should signify their assent. But I have shown that a resolution may be carried by a bare majority of those actually voting. It may be a seventh or a tenth of the total number. If it is done on these lines, the issue not having been put perhaps conclusively before the members, I fail to see that any authority would be vested in the amalgamated trade unions recognised by all the members which will be likely to make it easy for the present or future Governments to deal with trade questions. At the present time, and it is the last thing I wish to say on the Bill, what we are suffering from is admitted from the Front Bench, in the speeches this afternoon, that members of certain unions now on strike have been very badly advised—not advised by their accredited leaders, but advised in the contrary sense. They have been given information which was absolutely incorrect and in no way represented the intentions of the Government, or what the Government were actually doing by legislation in this House, and at a critical time; consequently, they are, to use the familiar phrase, out of hand, all running like a pack of hounds on half a dozen different scents. I think it would be a great mistake in an empty House like this, in the dinner hour, to pass a Bill without a word of protest, which may make the representation of trade unionism less authoritative, less binding on the members of the union even than it is at present. I hope myself, from the small experience I have had of it during this War, that the accredited representatives of trade unionism will regain all the command they had formerly over their members, and I only want to be quite sure in these pro- posals for amalgamated and extended trade unions that the accredited leaders of trade unionism will get the adherence, and the admission of the adherence, of, at any rate, the bare majority of the members whom they command.

I want to say only one or two words with reference to what has fallen from the hon. Member who has just sat down. I should like to deal first with the point he has raised as to the authority of the trade union executive. I think he will see, if he reflects for a moment, that the question does not really arise in this Bill, and if it did it is all in favour of the Bill. The greater the area over which the union is spread, the more difficult it is in the long run to have spasmodic strikes. There may be a few occasional outbursts, but, as a rule, the larger the organisation the legs likelihood there would be of these outbreaks. With regard to this question of a vote by proxy—say, to the conversion of a limited liability company. The question of a vote by proxy does not depend on a certain number of proxies to be obtained, but it depends upon the majority received; and similarly in this case, if each man has handed to him a paper which he can sign, it becomes under those circumstances practically a proxy vote when it reaches headquarters. The question of compulsion is very different. There is no compulsion on a shareholder providing he has the right so far as the law is concerned.

I am sorry to interrupt, but I want to be quite clear. In the case of shareholders, the meeting cannot be held unless the necessary proxies are granted.

But the necessary proxies do not amount to such a number as would prevent an amalgamation taking place under conditions which apply to this Bill. I think I am quite right in what I am saying, and now I only want to say that I believe this Bill is not only in the interests of the trade, but in the interests of the country. It is in the interests of the War, and I look upon it as very largely a war measure. It is very difficult to separate what is for the War and what is after the War. After-the-war problems do arise, even during the War itself. Under these circumstances, I hope the House will pass the Bill, for I feel quite sure in so doing they will be passing a Bill which is truly and really in the interests of the country as well as of the workers of the country.

There are only one or two words I would like to say in answer to the Member for Devizes. I cannot accept his statement that this is not a war measure. In the first place, my right hon. Friend pointed out the advantage of dealing with one large union instead of several small ones, and this afternoon, in the earlier part of the Debate, we heard great complaints—and to some extent justifiable complaints—of the delay that takes place in settling disputes. Anything that tends to reduce that delay is certainly to the advantage of this country in war time, because it will tend towards obviating any labour troubles or difficulties which may arise. Therefore I cannot admit that this is not a war measure. He also seized upon words my right hon. Friend used as to what would be done after the War. But what he was referring to was a question of demobilisation and reconstruction, which in one sense are post-war measures. If they are not provided for before the end of the War they cannot come into effect at all. Demobilisation and reconstruction will be most difficult businesses to carry through. This measure will be of very great advantage in avoiding trouble and friction. Then a reference has been made to a considerable diminution of safeguards considered necessary in 1871 and in 1876. But I ask him to remember that 1871 was the year when trade unions were first legalised, and we have advanced a good deal since then. I think it will be admitted that safeguards which might have been necessary then are not at all necessary now. With regard to the question about the simplicity which is arrived at and the greater responsibility my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport has answered it and I need not dwell upon that. But there is one other point which the Member for Devizes raised, and that is the question of the number of people who are required to vote. He sets out the very great alterations from 1876, and I rather gathered from what fell from him that he imagined this majority would mean a majority picked up from all the trade union votes added together, to decide the question one way or another. But the words of the Act are:

"Each and every such trade union."

So that the majority has to be in each and every trade union, and not a majority which may be formed by a very large number in one union and a minority in another.

Would it not be the majority of members of each trade union who happened to be there or chose to vote at the particular time?

That is so, but I rather gathered from the hon. Member that he thought it would be a majority got otherwise. Perhaps I misunderstood him. With regard to the question of the number voting, I do not think there is any very great danger. The hon. Member has admitted that in very important questions which have been put to the vote before it has been found very difficult to get a large number of people to vote. We do not want to put any unnecessary difficulties in the way, but if the question of amalgamation is one which is very strongly opposed in any union, I doubt very much if those who oppose it would not take the trouble to come forward and vote with all their force against it. I do not think that the dangers which the hon. Member apprehends are serious, but my right hon. Friend would be prepared to consider in Committee any reasonable proposal that may be made for any additional safeguard, which would not make it difficult for these amalgamations to take place. I hope, with this explanation, the hon. Member will allow us to get the Second Reading of the Bill.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.— [Mr. Bridgman.]

Gaming Machines (Scotland) Bill

Order for Second Reading Read.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

This very modest measure is designed to stop a very insidious and prevalent form of gambling which has recently sprung up in Scotland. The justification for bringing the Bill in now is twofold. At a time when it is essential that thrift should be practised and when the youth of the country should grow up as fit and honest citizens, it has been found that money is being squandered, that children are being debauched, and that juvenile crime is being fostered by these automatic gaming machines, which in return for a coin yield occasionally a money prize, or if not a money prize, a prize in kind. It began, I believe, in ice-cream shops. Now the machines are to be found in confectioners, grocers, fruiterers, newsagaents, and fish and potato shops, outside which, I am told, queues of young people may be found waiting for admission in order that they may pursue this particular form of gambling. The curious fact is that while these machines have been held to be illegal in England by the High Court the same machines have under the existing law of Scotland been held to be perfectly legal, and accordingly we have suffered on the other side of the border by having all the illegal machines from England, as they have been held to be, dumped down in great numbers north of the Tweed I do not often maintain the superiority of the English law courts over the Scottish law courts, nor do I now, but I do say it is highly anomalous that this state of things should continue. I find that one of our Scottish judges, while giving judgment to the effect I have indicated—he was dissenting—said, "Whether your Lordships or I am right, I have no doubt that if that is the law it ought, in the interests of the juvenile community, to be amended.' Another of the judges, Lord Guthrie, who took part in that judgment, took precisely the same view, though he felt bound to agree with the judgment because of the existing law in Scotland. I have been asked to bring in this measure by various public bodies, including the Town Council of Glasgow—for whom I know my hon. Friend (Mr. Watt) has a profound respect—by the school boards of Edinburgh, Glasgow, and Greenock, and other large towns, by various associations, and by various individuals who are interested in the welfare of youth. I ask the House to be good enough to give us a Second Reading.

I regret that my hon. and learned Friend has brought in this measure. In the first place, he cannot say that it is a war measure. It is by no means a war measure. Since the outbreak of the War it has been understood that the arrangements of the House preclude any measure being brought in or carried that cannot be actually described as a War measure. There was some doubt whether the last measure which has just received a Second Reading was a war measure or not. The hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Peto) contended that it was not a war measure, and occupants of the Front Bench declared that it was. I do not think that the bravery even of my right hon. Friend will be such that he wilt declare that this Bill for the suppression of mechanical machines for the purpose of encouraging sport and games can be in any way described as a war measure.

I have suggested two reasons why it may be so regarded. I am afraid my hon. Friend did not do me the honour of listening to my speech.

I think it is a common view that the Scottish people are a serious people, never given to laughing except at the wrong time, and for them, therefore, a mechanical contrivance for the purpose of encouragng sport might be very suitable to the national temper. But my right hon. Friend is about to deprive us of the little contrivance we have to encourage an occasional smile in that rather sad country. The second objection I have to the Bill is one which my right hon. Friend gave as a reason for passing it, namely, that it was initiated by the Glasgow Town Council. It is really a Glasgow Town Council Bill.

I referred to various public bodies, of which the Glasgow Town Council was one, who had represented very strongly that the Bill should be introduced. It is not really correct to say that this is a Glasgow Town Council Bill.

I must take my right hon. Friend's statement without inquiry, but he will realise that in any movement among the town councils of Scotland, someone must take the initiative. Some town council started it, and I venture to think that it was the Town Council of Glasgow, which is the leading Town Council of Scotland, which initiated this Bill. Therefore it has the appearance of a private measure, and ought not to pass. Another point arises against the Town Council of Glasgow, and it is this, that they are well known to be engaged at the present time in an enormous lottery scheme, which has caused a great deal of contention among writers to the newspapers and at public meetings. It is a scheme where, by the sale of their tramway tickets, they are selling tickets for a lottery. Every week a very substantial prize is given, and a number of substantial prizes have been awarded to the drawers of the successful numbers. The object of the tramway company's scheme is charitable. The money so brought in goes for the benefit of soldiers and sailors. Therefore the Town Council of Glasgow are in this position—that though they are conducting an enormous lottery scheme by means of their tramway system they are at the same time seeking to deprive individuals who have these mechanical contrivances in their shops of this means of livelihood. My right hon. Friend said that this is entirely a Scotch measure, that the law of England has already made illegal these mechanical contrivances for the purposes of encouraging sport, and that it is simply desired to make the Scotch law similar to the English law in this respect. If my right hon. Friend looks more closely into this particular point he will find that it will not put Scotland precisely on the same footing as England, but that Scotland will be in a worse position. Still, on the question of law, I bow to the opinion of my right hon. Friend, and take it as his view that the Bill will put Scotland on the same footing. My main contention against the Bill is that it is not a war measure, and should not be brought in at the present time, as it is not acting up to the bargain which was made, and has been carried out up to now that no measure which is not a war measure should be passed through the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read and postponed.

Inland Waterways

Whereupon Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

I shall detain the House for only a few minutes while I raise a question which is beyond all doubt a war question. It is one which I should have thought was an extremely simple one, and one with which the Board of Trade could have dealt with in a few days. It concerns their failure to utilise the existing means of canal communication which we have, terribly impaired from their original efficiency as they are, and utterly wanting in any of the development that took place in the canal system of every competing country during the end of the nineteenth century and the early years of this century. Towards the end of the month of March I asked the hon. Gentleman for information with regard to this matter. The particular canal which was brought to my notice is the Kennet and Avon Canal, which is ninety miles in length and crosses the great watershed between the Avon in the West, with Avonmouth and all that it means to this country in the present War, and the Thames at London, through Reading. The question is one of great importance and one would have thought at a time like this, when there is such an immense addition to the traffic on our southern lines and on the Great Western system, and such great demands are made on our rolling stock to provide for the needs of the front and the requirements of our Allies, that we should have taken every canal which we possess, even if its capacity were impaired, and utilised it to the full, and seen that there was not a boat on the canal that was not travelling, slowly it may be, but travelling day and night between one point and another. What has the hon. Gentleman's Department done? I asked two questions on the matter on the 29th March and received the following answer: Because the railway company in the past have done everything they possibly could to discourage the use of this canal and of every canal over which they have got control, that is given as a reason why in war-time, when we want, above all things, every facility we can have for moving agricultural and other kind of goods, nothing is to be done now. I could understand that from the railway company, but the Government, as represented by the Railway Executive Committee, should have some regard for the public interest in the matter, and the appeal should not have been made to them in vain. I will now take the question right down to the answer which the hon. Gentleman gave me the other day and which I felt was so unsatisfactory that I decided to raise this question on the Adjournment. On the 8th May I asked the Secretary to the Board of Trade: enlightened policy of the Great Western Railway Company. I do not know whether it was enlightened or not, but I have no doubt it was managed from the point of view of extracting the maximum of freights out of the impoverished trade of the country. In 1905 the maintenance and expenses were £10,500, and the loss was £6,600. I do not understand the last figures, unless there was some very much bigger game on foot—the ultimate extinction of the canal. The cost of the upkeep and the steady diminution in all these years by one-half is a state of matters which cannot possibly be justified. I am not asking, in the middle of a great war, that work should be undertaken in order to put right all the terrible deficiences arising from the management's policy in the past. What I am asking is that this poor crippled canal, which has got a length of 90 miles, and which mainly traverses an important agricultural area, the people on its banks depending upon it for the transport of their heavy goods, shall have its wretched summer capacity, and its winter capacity of 30 tons, utilised. What is the position? I have ascertained that thirteen canal boats were working between Devizes and Bristol, with a loading capacity of 600 tons a week. More and quicker boats might be put on the canal, but even if the present boats, with a carrying capacity of 600 tons a week, were travelling through Wiltshire and Berkshire, it would relieve the overtaxed railways, and make of some use a disused canal.

But for two months the hon. Gentleman's Department refused to do anything. These thirteen canal boats, at the outside, would require only some fifteen or twenty men, or even women could be trained to work these boats. One owner would put all his boats at the disposal of the Government, for, at present, he cannot get men to do anything, there being no one at all. What departments have we got to deal with this question. It is not only these two canal committees who are engaged, but a great variety of departments are concerned, and it appears to me that it is in the multiplicity of counsellors that the present Government fail utterly in these small matters of practical details, which mean so much to the provision of food that is a necessary and integral part of the carrying on of the War. I brought this matter to the attention of the President of the Board of Agriculture on the 10th and 12th of March. On the 19th of March he wrote to Mr. Harling Turner, the Director of Agricultural Labour in the National Service Department— I think that is the proper title—and called his attention to the fact that the use of these canals was of the utmost importance to agriculture, and the National Service Department has been, for over two months, unable to get a single canal boat to work in this war emergency. The question concerns not only the Kennet and Avon canal, for only to-day the hon. Member for Birkenhead stated that in his own district that he knew for a fact that canal boats were sunk in order to keep them watertight, as men and horses could not be obtained to do the work. These boats were submerged in order that the woodwork might be prevented from shrinking in the summer sun, and because there was no prospect of utilising the canal. These statements show that the neglect has been something perfectly intolerable on the part of the railway management.

We have got the Board of Agriculture, and clearly the President's Department is eminently concerned, because here are agriculturists who are dependent for the transport of foodstuffs, or timber for the mills on the canal, which takes goods that would otherwise have to go three or four miles by road to a railway station. All these things evidently concern the Board of Agriculture. The National Service Department have done nothing for over two months, and the Director-General has not produced one single person to work one single canal boat. In addition we have the hon. Gentleman's Department responsible for all railway matters, and though I may have appeared almost persistent in bringing these questions forward, yet not one practical step has been taken with regard to them. Then we have the two canal Committees and one other Department concerned, and the only practical suggestions made in two months to provide labour to work these thirteen canal boats is one contained in a letter by the President of the Board of Agriculture, who wrote to the Home Office and suggested that a few conscientious objectors might work these canal boats. I do not know how that suggestion broke down, but I know that it was not received in a very friendly spirit by the people mainly concerned. One of them said those who do not care to fight were not persons whom he would trust with a canal boat. That may be the opinion of the locality, but it is not a point on which I desire to express an opinion. I am here to-night to ask the hon. Gentleman not to depend upon these two Committees, and not to divide the canal system of this country, at this particular time, under two Committees, merely because some of these canals belong to railway companies. I ask him not to go on giving me answers to questions which continually put me off, while nothing is done day after day to week after week, as if I were some agent of the German Government or some Hun instead of an ordinary Member of Parliament, anxious to call the attention of the Government Department concerned to what is nothing less than a scandal. I ask him not to do any of these things, but that he will appoint some man of ordinary common sense, and with some business experience, to go down to Avonmouth to ascertain what it is that is preventing the transport of goods over this canal, and to see that these boats are got to work, as they could be, within four clays. I undertake to say that there are 100,000 in this country at the present time from among whom could be obtained men to take these canal boats backwards and forwards transporting goods. I ask the hon. Gentleman representing the Board of Trade to look into all these matters, which are of importance, so far as the trading public are concerned. We have had answers such as those to which I have referred in time of peace to stop our mouths, but now we are in war-time, and I submit that there should be some more practical and better action taken in regard to this important subject.

The remarks which have just been made about the case which has been put so forcibly by the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peto) apply in almost every particular to a case we could bring forward from Ireland. Only one single canal has been taken over by the Government in Ireland. It belonged to a railway company, and, so far as our information goes, nothing whatever is being done by the Railway Executive Committee towards the further development of that canal in any way. The Canal Committee as such has taken over none of these organisations in Ireland, and this to which I have referred is, I presume, being run by the Railway Executive Committee. The complaints which the hon. Member made against railway companies in this country with regard to their neglect and deliberate discouragement of canals here applies certainly with equal if not greater force in Ireland. I would like to remind the Parliamentary Secretary that the complaint made with regard to shortage of labour here, which I can well understand under the circumstances, does not at the present instant apply to Ireland; there is no shortage of labour there. In an agricultural country which applies also I suppose to the case of the hon. Member, one of the most urgent and one of the most vital necessities is the practical development of these canals because there is a great deal of the harvest which is not dependent on being delivered at great speed, and in those cases these canals could serve very practical purposes very efficiently indeed. My hon. Friend who has raised this matter has made a suggestion to the Parliamentary Secretary. I desire to make another suggestion in the case of Ireland. I do not know whether by sending a man here or by sending a man there anything could be done in connection with the canals. but where we have evidence that they are being neglected and that nothing is being done I say it is the duty of the Government—and especially of the Board of Trade, which has special responsibility in matters of this kind—and charge them to send forward either to the Canal Committee or to the Railway Executive Committee instructions in the form of a Minute as to what should be done in the case of those canals. Do not be too dependent on these committees, on their goodwill, or on their inefficiency, and perhaps something will be done. As long as they are not told to do anything they will continue to do nothing, as in the past. At a time like thins a great deal of good could be done if action were taken in this matter. In the case of the one canal in Ireland to which I have referred the Government ought to represent to the Railway Executive Committee that the deliberate policy of neglect pursued in the past ought not to be continued under Government control, and something ought to be done to facilitate the working of the canal.

The Parliamentary Secretary probably has not any very great experience in dealing with the canal question in this country. The case which has been brought before the House is really another added to the very long series of complaints of neglect of use of canals which existed and to develop others which have fallen into disuse. We cannot now urge the Government to endeavour to resuscitate the canals that have been abandoned and disused, but we can urge upon them, as my hon. Friend has done, that they should not allow canals which still remain to fall into disrepair and disuse, and that the facilities they have hitherto afforded should be continued to the people who were dependent on that service. The Parliamentary Secretary may realize that the Board of Trade has an interest in this question. The Board has taken a great interest in railways, but it has never given any attention to or seriously endeavoured to consider this question of the canals in this country. That has been a great scandal, and the hon. Gentleman would do a very great service if he would endevour to stir up that portion of the Department with which he is connected to pay some real attention to this matter and not to allow it to lie dormant. There was no greater mistake made than when the canals were allowed largely to fall into the hands of the railway companies, and this is another instance mentioned this evening of what that policy has led to. The matter goes very much further, and into larger issues than perhaps this particular instance. In the case of the Kennet and Avon Canal, when it was brought to the notice of the Railway Executive Committee they replied that they had taken no steps to bring that canal into working order, because the railway company had not provided the boats. But the boats are there, even though the railway company does not provide them, and the canal should be worked as should the other canals in the interests of the districts through which they pass. The Board of Agriculture and the Food Production Departments urge the country to wake up and cultivate the land and produce food. But what is the good of that if facilities for transport are taken away from the people owing to the neglect of the railway companies, as it appears in this case. This is not the occasion to go into the whole question of canals, as I should be very glad to do if opportunity offers, but I do want to lend my voice to the appeal which has been made to the Board of Trade to bestir itself about this question of canals, particularly in the case of the Kennet and Avon Canal and of all other canals still in working order, and that they should not be allowed to fall into disrepair and out of use, because they are a very valuable and cheap means of communication to those parts of the country which have hitherto been dependent on them, and which will suffer greatly if they are so allowed to fall into disuse.

I desire very briefly to associate myself with the three hon. Gentlemen who have preceded me in appealing to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade to take action in this matter. He could render no more useful public service in the high office in which he is placed than by making this subject his own, and seeing that the outcome of it is something of a practical character. The difficulties in his way are not so great as he may imagine. In the first place, the facts have already been ascertained. Some few years ago a Royal Commission was appointed. That Commission sat for about three years, and collected enough evidence to fill about twenty volumes. It issued several Reports, not one of which had ever been acted upon. Here we have a case where my hon. Friend has nothing to do but to sit down —I would not wish to inflict upon him the punishment of reading through all the volumes—and consider the matter carefully; and if he read the Report of that Royal Commission and took it upon himself to make it specially his own he could render no more excellent service to the country than to produce some really practical result upon this canal question. In normal times we should be told that the question of money stands in the way. We should be told that the Treasury could not be induced to give enough money to help on the matter. Times have changed. We do not now think in hundreds of thousands. We think in thousands of millions. If my hon. Friend makes a demand upon the Treasury, or perhaps I should say his chief—and there is no more capable chief to undertake such a subject than the one under whom he serves—if, I say, he could persuade his chief to take up this subject, and make a demand upon the Treasury, there is not the slightest doubt that even the Treasury officials would lend a responsive ear to the appeal. They are not so bad as people think.

9.0 P.M.

There are several points included in the points raised by my hon. predecessor the Member for Wiltshire, and also by the hon. Member for Galway, which are of very great importance. There is the food question. It is one of the most serious which we have at present to consider. I want neither to be a pessimist nor an optimist. By common agreement, however, the food question is one to which we shall have to apply our minds and our attention with a greater seriousness than heretofore. What is the present position? We have had complaints in this House within the past few weeks of thousands of tons of fish being thrown again into the sea at Irish ports because it was impossible to obtain transport for them to the inland towns of Ireland, or over here to the English market. I can understand the difficulty in regard to the English market. There is the shortage of tonnage. The Government cannot do the impossible. But if the canals were in use all this fish could be conveyed to the inland towns of Ireland. It would have been most valuable for the poor people in those districts. Similarly my hon. Friend the Member for Wiltshire called attention to the fact that on this very canal of which he spoke there have been delays in the conveyance of foodstuffs of no less than six weeks. That is a very serious position indeed. There is the railway delay. We cannot find fault with the railways. The demands made upon them are enormous, and the working of the railways is carried on under great difficulty, and, in view of all the circumstances, with remarkable efficiency. If the canals had been available for transport much of this delay might have been avoided. A great deal of the merchandise which is carried by trains is merchandise that is not required within a few hours. It is not required even within a few days. If it is delivered within a week or two it meets all the purposes of the consignors and consignees. Much of this goods traffic could be sent by canal, and would reach its destination, not as quickly, it is true, as by railway, but in quite ample time to meet all reasonable and necessary requirements. We are face to face to-day with very great difficulties in railway matters. Railway fares have been practically doubled. Excursion facilities have been abolished altogether. If anyone now wants to send goods by railway he is faced by the attitude of the railway companies that they will take the goods but will give no guarantee as to when they may be able to deliver them. Of course, we are at War. We have to take the consequences of War. But there is no shadow of doubt that if the inland waterways were used as they might be used a great many of these difficulties would be avoided, and a great many of the facilities that have been withdrawn, and necessarily withdrawn, from the public could be restored. I hope, therefore, that my hon. Friend will consider the suggestion I have made, that he should apply his mind to this matter earnestly. I can assure him if he does that he will be able to leave no more enduring monument, when he retires from office, than the settlement of this important question.

I find myself in thorough agreement with the general observations of the various speakers on this subject. But for the neglect of our canals and waterways in the past the problem of transport would be much better, in view of the restrictions under which we now are operating. After all, however, we have to acknowledge what has been the policy of the Government in the past. I recognise what my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes has said that the railway companies, in the matter of dealing with canals, have presumably had regard to their own interests, and have discouraged the use of canals. Nobody, I think, can gainsay that. Nevertheless, we are suffering to-day because of the policy pursued up till now The effect of that policy is well exemplified in the illustration given by the hon. Member in respect of the Kennet and Avon Canal, which was constructed in 1810, at a cost of over £1,000,000, and some forty years subsequently was acquired by the Great Western Railway Company at about one-fourth of that sum. It must be perfectly plain, in view of the various circumstances, that the policy accepted then was the discouragement of the use of the canals and waterways. Certainly it is only in recent years that the advisability of using the canals has received anything like due attention. My hon. Friend the Member for South Down has directed the attention of the House to the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Canals and Waterways. He has emphasised the fact that although that Commission issued very important recommendations, so far as we know, not one of them has been carried into effect.

If my memory serves me rightly, this question came under the consideration of the Cabinet in 1911. The view entertained then, I think, was that any large expenditure in respect of the development of canals and waterways would not be a very profitable enterprise from the point of view of the State. That might have been the view, having regard to the financial conditions that then presented themselves, but I certainly agree that things are now changed. I wish I had the power and influence which the hon. Gentleman has given me credit for, because in all seriousness I cannot conceive any greater benefit being conferred on the State than to be able to view this transport problem as a whole, and to be able to develop the canals and the waterways alongside the general development of the railway system. I believe that after the War questions of transport are going to be of very serious import to this country. Rapid and cheap conveyance of goods is certain to be a very considerable item in our reconstruction, and in the expansion of trade which we hope will ensue when peace is re-established. Therefore, from the standpoint of the general case which has been submitted, I am not offering any objection whatever to what has been observed here, because I find myself in such cordial agreement therewith. My hon. Friend, of course, directs attention to a specific case. It is quite true that he has urged this matter on my attention time and again, and he is good enough to assure me that if I fail to give satisfaction to-night he will persist. If I am unable, therefore, to give him full satisfaction, I know I am in for further trouble in respect of this particular question. Nevertheless, I ask my hon. Friend, and the House generally, to follow me in the brief remarks I have to make.

The Government only decided to exercise control over the canals in March. I went to the Board of Trade, as did my right hon. Friend the President, in the last few days of last year, and one of the questions that was urged upon my attention in the very early months of this year was that of canals. I immediately saw that, whilst the question was one of great interest and urgency before the War, war conditions had intensified the problem. Congestion on the railways and the fact that the Government now exercise a limited control over the railways have placed us in this fortunate position, at any rate, that we no longer have the active objection of the railway companies to the use of canals. In fact, I believe that the Railway Executive would be glad now if the canals and waterways of the country were in a properly navigable condition and that they were well equipped for the conveyance of traffic, because the congestion on the railways is such that they have a problem with which they find it difficult to cope. Therefore we have approached the subject during the last few months apart from some of the objections and difficulties which we had encountered heretofore, and the question was urged upon me by a number of Members of this House, particularly in respect of the network of railways in the Midlands. I am not an autocrat, and even if I were it was obviously not competent for me to take any action until such time as I had investigated the matter, and until I saw that there was some possibility under war conditions of making larger use of the canals. Therefore I made it my business, so far as limited opportunities would allow, to visit some of these canals, to conduct an investigation, to ascertain wherein lay the difficulties, and what were the prospects of overcoming them. I found in respect of one or two cases that the difficulty was almost exclusively a labour difficulty. My hon. Friend mentioned the illustration conveyed to him by the hon. Member for Birkenhead. I presume he was referring to the Bridgewater Canal. I soon saw that the Bridgewater Canal ought to be used a great deal more. There were barges lying there idle, labour having been taken in the haphazard way we had recruited our Armies, and the fact was there was no labour to work them. At the same time the railways were congested, and there was every reason why that canal should be brought into more effective use. After making my investigation I had to confer, of course, with my right hon. Friend the President, and we decided to recommend to the Government that the control of the canals should be similarly exercised as in the case of railways for the period of the War.

Oh, yes; let my hon. Friend bear with me. Rightly or wrongly, the method of finding the necessary labour was through the National Service Department, and, after all, the fundamental idea of the National Service Department is to set up some measure of properly organis- ing the labour of the country, and the organisation, as my hon. Friend will recognise, is much more difficult when labour has been depleted than if we had undertaken it at the commencement of the War. We are all prepared to acknowledge that, but, nevertheless, with those methods we have been able to furnish labour for some of those canals which have been taken over by the Government, and which are placed under the control of the Canal Control Committee. The canals which have come over as part of railway undertakings are in a different category. After all, my hon. Friend must realise we have not so far nationalised railway undertakings that we have not decided in this House to expropriate the railway companies. We have simply taken over the undertakings as they existed prior to the War with a certain control which was necessary for State purposes for the prosecution of the War. Therefore the two conditions must be recognised to be distinct. The Kennet and Avon Canal is the property of the Great Western Railway Company. The railway company have no powers to use the canal in respect of barging and carrying of produce. I cannot find that there is any statutory power resting in anybody or persons for utilising these powers. The Kennet and Avon Canal came over as part of the Great Western Railway undertaking, and this canal is the private property of the railway company, but the railway company have not what I may call running powers over the canal as such.

I want to know why they were allowed to acquire this canal, although they have no power to run over it.

I thought I had indicated that was one of the mistakes in the past. I am explaining the position in which I find myself. I cannot locate any Statutory power binding on any body or persons responsible for carrying on barging and carrying produce over this canal.

That does not meet the question at all. If my hon. Friend will allow me to make my case, I Have no doubt I shall be able to explain. I say that I went into the matter, and I found that the sole duty resting upon the railway company was to keep the canal in navigable condition, and I am advised that it has been so kept.

If it has fallen into a state of disrepair, that whereas it was constructed for the purpose of taking barges that would carry 60 tons load, and now they are only able to carry 30 tons in winter and 20 in summer, it certainly proves, if that is correct, that the canal has got into worse disrepair than we might have contemplated. If the canal has fallen into that deteriorated state, in order to make it of any real use we have got to have a considerable amount of labour. If it is as bad as my hon. Friend represents, we are in a position that we have got to be able to undertake repairs and furnish material we cannot spare at the moment, and provide a larger amount of labour than I had previously contemplated. If it is simply a question of getting into communication with the National Service Department, and asking them to furnish us with labour, it is a comparatively simple problem. Even that might not be quite so simple as some hon. Members contemplate. In one case I was told that after all these bargemen are very expert people and require some little training to carry on their work. I can assure my hon. Friend that we have had some delay in that respect. There has been difficulty in finding efficient substitute labour because we have to put that labour under a certain form of training until we are able to utilise it. I think the people who are clamouring for the full use of that canal must accept some share of the responsibilities involved. I am amazed that people who are so convinced of the extreme value of this canal have ever allowed it to get into its present state, and it is a question that should not have to be agitated in the middle of a great war. The local councils and the individuals concerned could get into touch with the carriers and see if arrangements cannot be made for the provision of such traffic facilities as are desirable. In this matter I think my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Peto) has very great scope for the exercise of his qualities. It seems to me that is the most practical suggestion I could make.

Will the hon. Member consult the Law Officers of the Crown in order to see if this matter can be dealt with under the Defence of the Realm Act?

I dare say we can do almost anything under the Defence of the Realm Act, but if we do anything that meets with considerable opposition in the House of Commons, I do not know that that is the best way of dealing with it. Having regard to the state of our food supplies, we require every facility we can obtain for transporting foodstuffs and for the production of foodstuffs. I recognise that agricultural machinery and manures might very well be conveyed along these canals and waterways. I am still in communication with the President of the Board of Agriculture on the matter, and I will again urge it on the attention of the President of the Board of Trade.

My hon. Friend is trying to draw me into another matter altogether, but it is not competent for me to open up the whole canal system of the country, and I am replying on behalf of the canal system now controlled under the Government scheme. My hon. and learned Friend has already pointed out that there is but one canal in Ireland which was taken over as part of the railway enterprise, and that is the only canal in Ireland for which we have any responsibility, direct or indirect, and he will not expect me to be able to make any pronouncement in respect of the particular questions of general policy as to whether canals should be taken over by the Government to provide facilities for the transport system. I have every sympathy with the desire of my hon. Friend to see these canals brought into full use, although I understand that sympathy by itself is not of much avail. Nevertheless, I approach this subject with a sympathetic desire to develop the canal system so far as practicable under existing conditions. If it only rested with me more might be done, but there are many practical questions to be solved, and I can only say that, in conjunction with other parties interested, including the President of the Board of Agriculture and the President of the Board of Trade, we are urging the Canals Control Committee to consider this question from the point of view of the utilisation to the fullest possible extent of these canals, and if the question resolves itself into the provision of labour alone, we shall ask the National Service Department to find the requisite labour. But I am afraid it is not only a question of labour, but a matter of placing the canal in a condition whereby it can be fully used.

I only ask that this particular canal should be used in war time the same as it was used before.

There is some difficulty in that being done, and some labour must be provided. I am able to inform my hon. Friends that a number of motor launches went down this canal, and if they are of the size which was reported to me, I cannot see why barges should not go down the same canal. I can promise my hon. Friend that I will give further consideration to this matter in the light of representations which have been made.

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-three minutes after Nine o'clock.