House of Commons
Tuesday, May 15, 1917
Private Business
Private Bills (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:
London County Council (Money) Bill.
Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.
Private Bills [Lords] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:
Kenilworth Gas Bill [Lords],
Bedwas and Machen Urban District Council Bill [Lords],
Ashton-under-Lyne Corporation Bill [Lords],
North Cheshire Water Bill [Lords],
Caerphilly Urban District Council Bill [Lords].
Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time.
South Eastern and London, Chatham, and Dover Railways Bill (by Order),
Read the third time, and passed.
Perth School Board Order Confirmation Bill,
Read the third time, and passed.
Ministry of Food
Copy presented of Order made by the Food Controller under the Defence of the Realm Regulations, authorising local authorities in England and Wales to prosecute offences before Courts of Summary Jurisdiction [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Oral Answers to Questions
War
Gerhallam Fort, Dunoon (Chaplain)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether there is still a paid chaplain to the force stationed at Gerhallam Fort, Dunoon; what is the salary paid yearly to such chaplain; and whether he will consider the possibility of using his services elsewhere to more advantage where a larger body of troops is camped, in view of the fact that there are so many churches within easy walking distance of the fort?
I will inquire into the matter which my hon. Friend brings to my notice, and inform him as soon as I am in a position to do so.
German Prisoners (Canada)
asked if the Canadian Government has been consulted as to the advantage of transporting German prisoners in outward-bound vessels which are often crossing the Atlantic to Canada without full freights, and there employing them in useful work of national importance, and where food can be supplied to them more cheaply than in this country at the present time?
This question has been before the Government, but on a balance of considerations it is not considered advisable to adopt the suggestion.
Have there been any communications with the Canadian Government?
Yes. Communications have been received from the Canadian Government.
Military Service
Medical Practitioners and Dentists
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that doctors of medicine can be found among the rank and file and officers of the fighting forces; and whether he is taking any steps to free these men for the pursuit of their profession in connection with the wounded?
Steps have been taken to withdraw medical practitioners who are officers of the fighting force. All medical practitioners who are known to be non-commissioned officers and men are invariably offered appointments as officers in the Royal Army Medical Corps if fitted to hold His Majesty's Commission.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that even those who are wounded experience great difficulty in getting out of the ranks?
if my hon. Friend knows of any particular case, I will look into it.
Are the same steps being taken in connection with dentists?
I cannot say offhand, but I presume they are.
Conscientious Objectors
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether Mr. T. F. Breeze, in the guard-room, 15th Battalion, Scottish Rifles, Cornwall Road, Walmer, Kent, a conscientious objector, was refused the assistance of a court-martial friend in connection with his recent court-martial; and, if so, can steps be taken to invalidate the proceedings and to give Breeze a fair trial?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave him in a similar case on 2nd April.
Farmers (Exemptions)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War why the recruiting officer at Keighley has called up Martin Wilkinson, of Ickornshaw Farm, Cowling, for military service immediately his certificate of exemption expires, seeing that Wilkinson is a farmer and was engaged in this occupation in August, 1915, and is therefore entitled to two months after the expiration of his certificate before he can be taken into the Army?
I am afraid that inquiry is necessary before I can answer my hon. Friend. I have called for a report, and will let him know as soon as possible.
Medical Board (Stoke-On-Trent)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the action of the military medical board at Stoke-on-Trent in keeping hundreds of men waiting all day for re-examination to the great loss of men and manufacturers alike, and whether he will find out who is responsible and have an inquiry held into his conduct?
I have called for a report, and hope to be in a position in a day or two to inform my hon. and gallant Friend of the result.
Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that this is going on all over the country, and should he not issue a general Instruction to prevent this?
Is it not possible to give those military medical men instructions that groups should not be all called up at 8.30 o'clock in the morning, but at different hours, so that the whole industry of a district is not interfered with?
I will see what I can do.
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
Soldiers' Wives (London District)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office what extra separation allowance is granted to the wives of soldiers residing in the London district; and what corresponding allowance is granted to officers and men serving in the London district?
The extra separation allowance which is granted, subject to certain restrictions, is 3s. 6d. a week. Officers serving in the London area receive no special allowance. Married warrant officers, non-commissioned officers and men stationed in the London area, and living with their families, receive 6d. a day "London allowance" in addition to family allowance.
Has the hon. Gentleman taken into consideration the question of the necessity of giving officers some allowance?
Yes, I have considered it very carefully, but I am afraid that I cannot see my way to do it.
Why not?
In cases of hardship arising out of family expenditure the officers can apply to the Civil Liabilities Commission.
Field Allowance (Officers)
8.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office Whether, considering the expenses that junior staff officers on consolidated pay are put to at home owing to constant change of station and other moves and the fact that they are not billeted as they are abroad and yet are doing as important work as those abroad without the chance of distinction, he will consider the question of the grant to them of field allowance while they are under canvas?
I can only refer the hon. and gallant Member to my reply of 1st May.
Small Holdings
13.
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture if he has received a complaint from a number of men residing at Bignalt End, Staffordshire, that their repeated applications to the North Staffordshire County Council for small holdings are ignored; and what action he is taking in the matter?
No such complaint appears to have been received at the Board of Agriculture. The matter shall be inquired into.
Ceylon
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will state what functions and powers were conferred upon the aratchy of a town in Ceylon under martial law in June, 1915, and what are the qualifications and character of the men who fill that position; whether he has read the depositions of L. Sophia Hamy, of Algoda, with reference to the visit of the town aratchy to her house on 10th June, 1915, accompanied by Englishmen and Punjabi soldiers, who looted the house, tied her husband's hands behind his back, dragged him forth to a group of other prisoners, and, on the vague assertion of the aratchy that three of them were bad characters, shot those three dead without trial; whether he has read the depositions of other witnesses corroborating this; and whether any inquiry has been held into the possible motives by which the aratchy might have been actuated?
The town aratchy is a minor local official; no special functions were conferred on him under martial law. I cannot admit the accuracy of the depositions. I have received the report of an inquiry by a Commission into this case, which gives the aratchy a good character and exonerates him from blame.
The right hon. Gentleman has not told the House whether this woman's husband was murdered, whether the woman herself was a witness at the inquiry of which he speaks, and whether her evidence broke down in any particular?
I have answered the question, and the answer includes the statement that I do not admit the accuracy of the deposition.
asked whether the clemency which the Governor of Ceylon is entitled to exercise covers all sorts of crimes; whether it was properly exercised by Sir Robert Chalmers, when about to leave Ceylon, in stopping the proceedings for perjury already begun against certain Moors who by perjury had abused the credulity of the courts-martial in 1915 and succeeded in getting three innocent men, D. J. R. Goonewardene, D. J. Gooneskere, and Romanis Perera, sentenced to death; and, seeing that there were many such cases in Ceylon at that time and substantial benefits to be derived from swearing against the lives of Sinhalese, whether it is still possible to bring to justice perjurers who were the sole witnesses in capital cases?
I must refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Burnley on the 6th March.
What is the result of the inquiry then promised with reference to the witnesses in this case?
I cannot go beyond the answer which I have given, and I already told the hon. Gentleman many times over. I have answered these questions repeatedly, and I cannot add anything to the information which I have given.
asked whether Mr. Mitchell, superintendent of Panawatte estate, Yatiyantota, Ceylon, has ever been called upon to vindicate his character against the deposition made by W. G. Siddhappu before Mr. J. C. Marshall, J.P., that on the 13th June, 1915, nine days after the disturbance had ceased, Mr. Mitchell had deponent's brother, Serahami, shot dead by Punjabi soldiers, without charge or trial; and under what law English planters and their English employés are exempt from liability for such conduct in Ceylon?
The report of an inquiry into this case shows that the allegations against Mr. Mitchell are entirely unwarranted.
How is it that the people who have made these depositions have not been tried for perjury if their statements are untrue?
It arises from the cause which leads to differences between the hon. Gentleman and myself. His information and mine differ wholly.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the difference in treatment in the cases of Arthur and Harry Dias and that of other persons sentenced with them in Ceylon in 1915 to penal servitude for life, that, though all were convicted on the same evidence and all popularly believed to be not guilty, the two Diases were released on payment of £5,000 and the other persons are still in penal servitude; whether there is any reason for the difference in treatment but the wealth of the former and the poverty of the latter; and whether the law in Ceylon provides for this difference for this reason?
My predecessor received a full report in the cases of Arthur and Harry Dias. I see no reason to question the discretion of the late Governor in the exercise of clemency in these cases.
Are the poor men convicted on the same evidence still in prison because they are poor?
No.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what the official answer is to the deposition of Mr. L. P. Perera, of Ampe, Ceylon, that on the 4th June, 1915, the only day there was disturbance at Ampe, his only son, Romanis, was away at the Avissawella Police Court, and therefore could not have had any part in the disturbance; that on the 8th June twenty-seven men, including the deponent and his son, Romanis, were arrested on the unsupported complaint of a Moor trader, named Peer Tamby, and that without charge or trial Romanis Perera was tied to a tree and shot dead by the military in the sight of the other twenty-six captives; why was Mr. Perera compelled to witness the murder of his only son; whether there is any record of the charge made by Peer Tamby; and, if any of the facts are denied, why the deponent has not been tried for perjury?
This case has been the subject of inquiry, in the course of which the writer of this deposition was examined. His statement was discredited in many particulars by other witnesses. I have no information as to the last part of the question.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Moor who initiated the riots at Kandy, Ceylon, in 1915, by shooting dead a Sinhalese youth on the night of the 29th May, and though known to the public and to the police to have done this was not then arrested, has since been arrested and tried for that act; and, if not, will he say why this course has not been adopted?
I have nothing to add to the reply given to the hon. Member on the 14th December last.
Then this Moor who secured the execution of several Ceylonese has never been arrested?
On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. Is there nothing in the Rules of the House to prevent one hon. Member of the House from repeating day after day a series of six or eight Questions regarding a difficulty in Ceylon which happened some years ago—questions which are calculated to cause great difficulty and disturbance in Ceylon?
I have no authority to interfere.
Cannot a repetition of questions be prevented?
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what notice has been taken of the conduct of Mr. C. S. Vaughan, Special Commissioner at Kandy, Ceylon, in issuing a Proclamation there on 10th June, 1915, that persons not obeying orders or carrying firearms will be liable to be shot at sight; how many persons were shot without trial under this Proclamation; and what official position Mr. Vaughan now occupies?
I must refer the hon. Member to the reply given to his similar question on the 1st May. Mr. Vaughan is an officer of the Ceylon Civil Service.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the result of the inquiry which his predecessor said six months ago was being held into the slaying of W. P. Singho, of Algoda, Ceylon, on the 10th June, 1915; and whether the six English gentlemen who, according to the deposition of Singho's widow, had him shot, have been tried for that act?
I have received the report of a local commission of inquiry into this case, but await the Governor's observations in the matter.
In view of the fact that in the case of every accusation against an official the official receives exoneration, and that there has been grave doubt all through in this matter, would it be possible to have an independent and impartial inquiry, with some Member of Parliament taking part in the investigation, and thus try to settle the disturbance?
I am not aware that the opinion expressed by the hon. Gentleman exists except in a very limited quarter of the House, but I desire to make an answer generally to these questions, replies to which, in detail, would involve an amount of labour on the part of the Governor and his officials which would make it impossible for them to discharge their duties. As Secretary of State I have made myself fully conversant with the history of this question, and I am perfectly sure that the Governor is doing everything in his power in order to produce a state of peace and order.
Arising out of that general answer, has not the right hon. Gentleman received a petition from the natives of Ceylon praying for an English Commissiion of inquiry; has he received any opposition to that petition except the opposition of the officials?
Metropolitan Police (Boot Allowance)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has now come to a decision as to granting an increased boot allowance to the Metropolitan police, having regard to the fact that the present boot allowance of 6d. per week only covers the cost of repairs, which has nearly doubled since the beginning of the War owing to the rise in the price of leather as well as the increase in labour?
My right hon. Friend has decided, on the recommendation of the Commissioner of Police, to increase the boot allowance to one shilling a week. It is proposed that the increase should have effect as long as the abnormal prices due to the War continue.
May I ask whether boots could not be considered part of the uniform?
Prison Regulations
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the special permission of the prison governor has to be obtained before a prisoner can be allowed the use of a toothbrush; and whether, in the interests of hygiene and the welfare of prisoners, he will consider the desirability of reconsidering the Regulation?
Toothbrushes are issued to all prisoners who apply for them. I see no reason for reconsidering this practice, but an endeavour will be made to encourage the use of brushes.
National Insurance Act
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received from the leather workers' trade, on their own behalf and on behalf of their workpeople, a protest against the exten- sion to that trade of the National Insurance Act, Part II. (Munition Workers' Unemployment Insurance); whether the boot and shoe manufacturers have, in consequence of a similar protest, been virtually excluded from the operation of that Act; and whether he is prepared to extend like treatment to the leather workers' trade?
I have been asked to reply to this question, as the Ministry of Labour has been entrusted with the powers formerly enjoyed by the Board of Trade in this matter. Representations of the kind indicated by my hon. Friend were received in September of last year from certain associations of employers in the leather workers' trade. The position is that a trade included in the Schedule to the National Insurance, Part II. (Munition Workers) Act, 1916, which covers the manufacture of leather goods, cannot be excluded from unemployment insurance without further legislation.
Light Railways (Ireland)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will give a list of the light railways in Ireland wholly or partially controlled by county councils and the amount of the guarantee in each case that had to be paid from the rates in the year 1915; and whether, now that railways are under Government control, this differentiation and burden on poor districts will be removed?
Most of the information asked for in the first part of this question is to be found in the Reports of the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland. The terms on which the railways are being taken over should have the effect of preventing any increase beyond the 1913 level in the guarantees payable in respect of the lines of which possession has been taken.
Food Supplies
Fish
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has yet been able to arrange to take fish from Irish fishermen to pay on delivery as is done in the case of Scotland; and whether he is aware that the new arrangement has caused loss and inconvenience to the public as well as to fishermen without any corresponding advantage to anybody?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given yesterday to the hon. Member for North Dublin.
Beer (Food Value)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what is the food value of beer as compared with the quantity of grain and sugar destroyed in its production?
It is estimated that beer, together with the milk obtained by feeding to cattle the by-products of the brewery, contains between 28 per cent. and 59 per cent. of the energy and less than 27 per cent. of the flesh-forming matter of the constituents from which the beer was made; whereas if these constituents were not used for brewing, but were directly used as human food, about 71 per cent. of the former and 68 per cent. of the latter would be recovered.
Sugar
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food why no sugar has been supplied to the staff and patients of the Tyrone and Fermanagh Lunatic Asylum, Omagh, since the 1st January last; if he is aware that this institution contains over 800 patients; that their pre-war requirement was about 1 ton of sugar per week; and that, although they have given full particulars to his Department at their request on the 30th March last, no action has since been taken?
The Ministry of Food have been in communication with the firms which, according to the letter from the asylum authorities on the 30th March last, previously supplied sugar to the asylum. It is recognised that the asylum have not received their proper supplies of sugar in the past and it is hoped that the matter may now be rapidly adjusted, and I have to say that I regret that it appears that there has been undue delay in investigating this matter.
Paste for Paper-Hanging
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether any Order has been made prohibiting the use of flour or rye flour for making paste for paper-hanging or bill-posting; and, if not, will he consider the advisability of issuing such an Order?
Yes, Sir. Through the combined operation of the Wheat, Rye, and Rice Restriction Order, and the Maize, Barley, and Oats Restriction Order the making of paste from sound cereal grain for wall-papering or bill-posting is now prohibited. It should be understood that the repapering of walls is not a domestic enterprise of a patriotic character.
Rabbits
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether the provisions of the Ground Game Act can be relaxed so as to allow tenants with land adjoining coverts to kill by any means rabbits that are destroying crops for human food?
An Order has been made under the Defence of the Realm Regulations empowering executive committees to authorise persons to enter on any land for the purpose of killing rabbits if they are doing damage to crops.
Persons generally or tenants?
Tenants.
Pheasants
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether it is proposed to remit the fine imposed on a farmer at the Bourne Petty Sessions for shooting one pheasant out of seventy-four that were damaging a field sown with peas; and whether prosecutions for killing game destroying human food will be prohibited during the War?
Any application for the remission of the fine should be addressed to the Home Office. It is not proposed to proceed on the lines suggested in the latter part of the question, but the Board are prepared to take immediate action to effect the reduction of the stock of pheasants in any case where they are satisfied that this is necessary for protection of crops.
Did not the Board of Agriculture state that licences were to be issued to enable tenants to kill pheasants out of season?
That was only to the end of March.
Will the hon. Gentleman approach the Home Office in respect of the remission of this fine?
We have given instructions for an inquiry to be made locally into the whole of the circumstances. We had better wait and see what the answer is.
Will instructions be given that such prosecutions should not be instituted without reference to the Board of Agriculture?
This was a police prosecution.
Yes, but does the hon. Gentleman not know that these prosecutions may be stopped by official action?
I have every sympathy with the hon. Member. We hope that the statement I have given will be sufficient.
Could not the licences granted to the end of March be continued, as it is much more important now?
Perhaps my hon. Friend would give notice of that question.
Scientific and Industrial Research
asked the President of the Board of Education when the Report of the Board of Scientific and Industrial Research for 1916–17 will be available for Members of this House, in view of the special Estimates for that Board now before Parliament?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. The Report of the Committee of the Privy Council for Scientific and Industrial Research is made for the year ending 31st July, and will appear as soon as possible after that date.
asked the President of the Board of Education whether the Grant to the British Dyes Corporation, Limited, for scientific and industrial research comes within the cognisance of his Board; if so, can he state the amount of the Grant and how much of it has been paid, and when; and whether, in view of the special Estimates of the Board of Scientific and Industrial Research now before Parliament, he can supply any information to the House on the results or the methods of expenditure of that Grant?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. My right hon. Friend is informed by the President of the Board of Trade that no payment out of the Grant in question has yet been made to British Dyes, Limited, or applied for.
British and German Civilian Prisoners of War
asked the hon. Member for Sheffield (Central Division), whether any use is yet being made of the Dutch passenger ships whose safety has been guaranteed by the German Government for the mutual exchange of British and German civilian prisoners over the age of forty-five?
I would refer my Noble Friend to the reply on 3rd May by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Admiralty to the question of the hon. Member for Newington. The Admiralty state that there is no accommodation available on these Dutch boats for prisoners of war.
School Teachers (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland what is the cause of the delay in setting up a register of secondary teachers in Ireland; will such register be ready for the coming school year; and whether any new rules have been or are being framed for the distribution of the Teachers' Salaries Grant, or whether the present rules will be enforced during the coming year?
Draft regulations for a register have been framed and are under consideration. New rules for the distribution of the Teachers' Salaries Grants are being drafted.
When does the right hon. Gentleman expect these rules to come into operation?
I cannot answer that without notice.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he will state what is the number of teachers in workhouses in Ireland paid by the State, the total amount paid in salaries, and the average salary per teacher?
The salaries of teachers in workhouse schools in Ireland are paid from Poor Law funds and not by the State. Grants in aid of the salaries are made out of the Local Taxation (Ireland) Account. There are 181 such teachers, whose salaries amount to £7,512, an average of £41 10s. each, and who are allowed apartments, rations, fuel, and light, or money value in lieu thereof in addition to their pay.
Central Control Board, (Liquor Traffic), Ireland
asked the Chief Secretary if he is aware that an important meeting of business people and manufacturers of Belfast and the province of Ulster was held in the Ulster Hall, Belfast, on 13th December, 1916; that this meeting was presided over by the Lord Primate of Ireland, and that the moderator of the Presbyterian Church in Ireland and the vice-chairman of the Methodist Conference also took part; that at this meeting a resolution was passed calling upon the Government to apply the Regulations of the Board of Liquor Control to those parts of Ireland where munitions of war are manufactured, where large bodies of troops are encamped for training, and at all ports where troops embark; and will he say if he has received a copy of such resolution and if he proposes to give effect to it?
I have received numerous resolutions on this subject, including that from Belfast referred to in the question. The matter is, however, not within the discretion of the Chief Secretary. I must refer the hon. Member to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Munitions.
Representation of the People Bill
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that thirty Unionist Members of this House are as present serving overseas, of whom twenty-three are serving in France, six in Egypt, and one in Russia; and whether he will arrange that facilities should be offered to those Members to attend in their places in this House during the progress of the Electoral Reform Bill, without prejudice to their positions in their military units?
The statement in the first part of my hon. Friend's question is, as far as I can gather, substantially correct. As regards the latter part, I can give no other answer than that given by me on the 8th of this month to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Wednesbury.
Will the Government bear in mind that this group of Members includes an overwhelming majority of opponents of woman suffrage, and consider their position in the interests of fair play to the opposition to woman suffrage?
Will the hon. Member remember, also, that there are twenty-two members of the Liberal party also serving at the front?
Is the military genius of the officers from this House now at the seat of war to be withdrawn because women are to be enfranchised?
Disabled Soldiers (Civil Service)
asked the Prime Minister whether any agreement has been arrived at between any representative Labour body and any of the Government Departments as to the allocation of some of the lesser positions in the Civil Service to disabled men; and, if so, will he say with what bodies the arrangement has been made and what is its nature?
So far as I am aware, no official negotiations have taken place with any representative Labour body on this question.
Metropolitan Postal District (Numbers)
asked the Prime Minister whether he will instruct the officials of each Government Department having an address in London to put the number of their postal district on their letter paper?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. Instructions were issued to all the Departments when the new mode of address was introduced, and all fresh supplies of official paper will bear the full address of the Department.
Might it not be put on in ink?
I believe that is being done.
Coal-Mining Industry
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether recent Returns indicate that the coal-mining industry has been earning excess profits; and, if so, to what extent?
I can add nothing to the replies I have already given to my hon. Friend in answer to similar questions.
Mining Royalties
48.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the aggregate amount for the last financial year of the mining royalties, etc., assessable to Mineral Rights Duty; and how much of that amount was also assessable to excess Mineral Rights Duty?
The information desired by the hon. Member is not available. I regret that in view of the labour involved in obtaining detailed analyses of Revenue Returns, I cannot undertake at the present time to furnish these particulars.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say the probable amount of mining royalties last year assessable to Mineral Rights Duty?
I have already said that I have not got the information.
Entertainments Duty
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will consider the advisability of allowing the com- plimentary tickets, issued to nurses who convey squads of wounded soldiers and sailors from hospitals to theatres and entertainments to be exempt from the tax upon complimentary tickets, as the augmentation to revenue from this source would be very small and the situation would be embarrassing if the nurses are compelled to pay the tax while the soldiers and sailors go free?
I will make provision to meet this point in the draft of the Finance Bill.
Timber Supply
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, having regard to the Cabinet instruction that timber is to be economised, he will explain why timber is still being employed for the extensive external wall surfaces of the various aircraft supply stores now being erected for the Royal Flying Corps in the North-West of London and in various provincial centres; and, having regard to the purpose to which these buildings ate to be put, he will consider the advantage of utilising a material of some fire resistance, such as a non-proprietary concrete slabbing, rather than timber weather boarding?
Fire-resisting material is, as far as possible, being substituted for timber in all buildings in course of construction for the Royal Flying Corps except in cases where the work was nearing completion or the contract too far advanced before the issue of the instruction to which my hon. Friend refers.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller, whether he is aware of the Cabinet instruction as to limiting the use of timber wherever possible; whether he is aware that reinforced concrete sea-going barges have been used to a considerable extent in Italy and that reinforced concrete ships are being built in Norway; and whether any endeavour is being made that any new barges or minor hulls which may be required, both for sea, river, and harbour, should in future be constructed of reinforced concrete rather than of timber?
The Shipping Con- troller is aware of the necessity for limiting the use of timber, and due regard has been had to this fact in connection with his shipbuilding programme. The possibilities of reinforced concrete are being carefully examined, and tenders and plans for the construction of barges of various types are already in preparation.
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether, having regard to the Cabinet instruction that timber is to be economised wherever possible, he can see his way to issue, in popular form on the same lines as the general leaflets issued by the Board of Agriculture, useful information to estate owners and farmers as to simple methods of making fence posts and gate posts of concrete rather than of timber, and to utilise concrete generally for farm purposes on a greater scale than has been the case heretofore; and whether he is aware of the use of concrete on the farms and estates of the United States, and the fact that it is now more economical, not only in maintenance, but also in first cost, to use concrete for the minor purposes in farm work for which timber is generally employed?
I am obliged to my hon. Friend for his suggestion, though I fear there is no chance of our being able to adopt it during the War. I understand that the construction of concrete fence and gate posts involves the use of a good deal of steel or iron and wire as well as skilled labour. The Department are advised that, generally speaking, it is preferable to continue during the War to use the rough timber, which is usually at hand on a farm, rather than to embark upon concrete.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Committee on Canals is aware of the Cabinet instruction that has been issued as to the necessity of avoiding the use of timber wherever possible and has taken steps to arrange for such new barges as may be required to be constructed of reinforced concrete in order to save timber; and whether he has particulars of reinforced concrete barges used in Italy and could have information circulated among those concerned?
The Canal Control Committee are, I think, fully aware of the desirability for economy in the use of timber and of the possibility of substituting reinforced concrete for timber for certain purposes, including the building of barges.
asked the Minister of Munitions whether, having regard to the Cabinet instruction that economy is to be practised in the use of timber, any endeavour is being made to circulate information or popularise the use of concrete and reinforced concrete for the simple minor uses in controlled factories, as well as for the construction of the actual buildings, as for example for railway sleepers used on sidings, electric transmission poles, fenceposts, shelters, latrines, and troughs?
The Ministry of Munitions have pressed for the use of concrete and reinforced concrete wherever possible, in order to economise the use of steel for constructional purposes, and the present scarcity of timber, as well as of steel, renders the necessity of employing concrete still more urgent. I may add that, in making application for a Building Licence, applicants have to state their readiness or otherwise to use reinforced concrete, and this is one of the points taken into consideration in dealing with these applications.
Education Grants (Payments to Teachers)
asked the President of the Board of Education whether, in view of a considerable amount of misunderstanding existing in the minds of teachers and local authorities, he will state that the amount recently voted for additonal pay to teachers will be added to what they already received from the local education authorities; and whether he will make such financial arrangements by means of payments of Grants in advance as will enable the local education authorities to pay this amount to their teachers at once?
I would remind my hon. Friend that the money in question has not yet been voted, and I am, therefore, unable to make the financial arrangements which he suggests. So soon as the money has been voted, arrangements will be made for paying the Grants to the local education authorities in instalments.
May I ask whether those payments will enable those educational authorities to pay the increased Grant to teachers as from the 1st April?
I think that is so, but I should like to have notice of the question.
Nurses (Committee's Report)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he can explain the delay in the issue of the Report of the Committee on Nurses for the War, and whether he can state when the Report will be issued?
Copies of this Report are now available for the use of Members, and I am arranging for a supply to be placed in the Library.
Questions by Members(Editing)
On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. May I ask whether it is not the practice, or one of the Orders of this House, that when a question is handed in at the Table and edited to any extent that the Member giving notice of the question should be advised of the fact? A week ago I put down a question to which I asked a written answer regarding certain statements concerning the Liquor Control Board which appeared in a periodical, and requesting information thereon. I subsequently found that the question, as printed, attributed to me the sentiments in the article. Is it not one of the rules of the House that a Member should be advised before, or when, his question is so altered?
The Clerks at the Table endeavour to get hold of Members. The Clerks are always present, but hon. Members are not. It is sometimes very difficult to discover where hon. Members are.
London Omnibus Traffic
I desire to ask the representative of the Ministry of Labour whether he can give any information to the House as to the cause of the suspension of the omnibus traffic in London, and will he state what the Government have done or are doing to bring about a settlement of the dispute?
The Ministry of Labour were approached by the manager of the company, who informed us that he had received a communication, dated the 3rd May, from the General Secretary of the London and Provincial Union of Licensed Vehicle Workers, informing the company that the delegates representing the various branches of this union had decided to withdraw the adhesion of this union to Clause 3 of the Agreement signed on the 25th September, 1913, by Sir Albert Stanley on behalf of the General Omnibus Company, Mr. Richard Tilling on behalf of Messrs. Tillings, Ltd., and Messrs. A. Smith and H. A. Bywater on behalf of the above union, and countersigned by Sir George Askwith, Chief Industrial Commissioner.
He also informed us that he had received on the 4th May another letter in which the company were informed that the annual delegate meeting had resolved that the signature of Mr. Ben Smith, organising secretary of this union, as appended to the minute signed on 5th January, 1917, at the Ministry of Labour and countersigned by the Permanent Secretary of the Ministry of Labour, be declared null and void. The effect of this minute was that the union would not use their machinery in defence of men who broke the printed agreement with the company.
The Ministry got into communication with the officials of the men, and conveyed to them the information they had received from the manager of the General Omnibus Company. They forwarded to us a copy of the letter, informing us of the decision of the delegate meeting regarding the minute which had been signed by Mr. Ben Smith, organising secretary, on the 5th January, 1917.
The question of the claim for 10s. advance to drivers and conductors and 5s. for the skilled and semi-skilled garage staff was raised by the representatives of the union. The Ministry advised that, notwithstanding the decisions of the delegate meeting, this claim should be proceeded with and dealt with if the men remained at work.
The company raised an objection to proceeding with the arbitration if that meant they had to recognise the union which had declared null and void two agreements which they had arrived at with the company. The company, acting on the advice of the Department, agreed to proceed with the inquiry regarding the claim for an advance of wages, leaving it to the men in their employ to select or make their own arrangements for representation at the inquiry.
The inquiry regarding this advance would in the normal course have taken place this week, and immediately the men return to work will be proceeded with.
Liquor Traffic and State Control
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention had been drawn to the announcement in the "Daily Express" this morning to the effect that the Government control of breweries has been decided upon; and whether there is any foundation for the statement?
This is an unauthorised and inaccurate account of one of several private interviews which have been held by the Prime Minister. As soon as the policy of the Government is decided it will be announced in the House of Commons.
Can the right hon. Gentleman account for the unauthorised reports of these interviews appearing in the Press? Is he not aware that there are powers under the Defence of the Realm Act for dealing with this sort of thing?
I cannot account for it. I do not see how the powers under the Defence of the Realm Act could be put into operation when we do not suspect anything of the kind.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say then that the statement that the breweries were informed yesterday that control was to be taken is without any foundation?
I was not present at the meeting, but my colleagues who were there say that the account was inaccurate.
Is it purely a coincidence that the "Daily Express" has had advance information for every proposal, either by this or the late Government, for dealing with the liquor trade?
I do not see how I can be expected to answer that question.
You might ask Lord Beaverbrook.
When the right hon. Gentleman makes his statement, will the House have an opportunity of discussing it?
Most certainly!
Will discussion arise before anything effective is done?
Oh, no!
I can add nothing to the answer I have already given.
Is it not extraordinary that, unless this House is to abrogate its power, it should not be allowed to look into the stable before the door is locked and the horse gone?
The question was whether the House should have the opportunity of discussion. It all depends upon what is being done. Obviously anything like State purchase would not be dreamt of without the consent of the House of Commons.
But State control during the War?
That is going on now. It is entirely a question of degree.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give the House an opportunity of either giving or withdrawing its sanction?
Is Lord Milner to be appointed Controller of English beer, so as to reduce it to the German standard?
Private Business
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders Bill,
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the third time To-morrow.
Chepstow Water Bill,
Armstrong, Whitworth, and Company (Railways) Bill,
Reported, with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Aluminium Corporation Bill [Lords],
Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the third time.
Bill Presented
COMPANIES (PARTICULARS AS TO DIRECTORS) BILL,—"to provide for the disclosure of certain particulars respecting the Directors of Companies," presented by Sir ALBERT STANLEY; supported by the Solicitor-General and Mr. George Roberts; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 48.]
Orders of the Day
Business of the House
Government of Ireland: Prime Minister's Statement
Can the right hon. Gentleman inform the House as to the business for to-morrow and Friday, and also the Orders with which he intends to proceed to-day?
I would rather, if my right hon. Friend and the House do not find it inconvenient, answer that question to-morrow. We hope to-day to take as many Orders as we can, though not, of course, the Finance Bill.
Has the right hon. Gentleman decided when the statement is to be made on the Irish question? This matter has been postponed from time to time, and really the Irish Members are losing patience with the Government.
It was in connection with that subject that I asked for the question relating to business to be postponed till to-morrow. As a matter of fact, I had expected a Private Notice Question on the subject from the hon. Member for Mayo, and was prepared to give an answer to-day. I shall now give the substance of it. The Prime Minister, on behalf of the Government, will make a communication to the leaders of the Irish parties which, it is hoped, will be in their hands in the course of to-morrow. The Government are prepared, if necessary, to allot Monday for a discussion on the subject. In these circumstances I may say what the business will be.
On Thursday, it will be the Board of Trade Vote.
On Friday, we shall take some small Bills.
What I would ask is the meaning of this tricky method by which this all-important question is being dealt with? Why has there been a departure from the arrangement that was made here—that a full, clear, definite, and unmistakable question of policy should be declared to the House of Commons in the only method by which it can be adequately discussed?
I really think the charge of trickiness is not justified. I hope the hon. Gentleman will see that. What we have done has been to arrange that the Prime Minister will send in advance to the leaders of the Irish parties the proposals which the Government have in view. It is surely not a disadvantage, either to the subject itself or to the House of Commons, that before discussion takes place some idea of the matter should be known to the leaders.
Who are the leaders?
To whom will the communications be sent?
I am sorry I cannot say, but that point was not raised.
What about Ginnell?
Has the right hon. Gentleman present in his mind the fact that the Prime Minister and the Government have repeatedly promised to make this statement of their Irish policy to the House of Commons, and can he state now the ground and reason on which, after repeated postponements, the Government have decided to abandon and break that promise?
There is no question of abandoning or breaking any promise. The House of Commons, I am sure, will quite realise the difficulty of this whole question, and it seemed to us, after the most careful consideration we could give, that it would not be the best method simply to announce the policy in the House of Commons before the leaders of the parties had an opportunity of judging it. I do not think it is unreasonable.
Who are the leaders?
Are we to understand that, having given this preliminary announcement to the leaders of the Irish parties, whoever they may be, as to the policy of the Government, the Prime Minister will himself announce on Monday to the House of Commons and to the public of this country, and, I might add, to the world, what is the policy of the Government?
The communication of which I have spoken will contain an announcement of the policy of the Government in this matter, and the House of Commons will have an opportunity of dealing with it.
Will the Prime Minister announce to the House of Commons what is the policy of the Government? Does the right hon. Gentleman remember that the Prime Minister and the Government took it out of our hands, and announced to the House of Commons and to the whole world—because this matter has become an international matter now—that they had of their own responsibility decided to undertake a settlement of this question, and is it by a hugger-mugger communication to certain selected Members of the House of Commons that this announcement is to be made; and, even if it is made in that preliminary fashion, does the right hon. Gentleman consider that that discharges the Government and the Prime Minister from the promise which they made, of their own responsibility, to announce a policy for the settlement of the Irish question to the House of Commons?
Surely that difficulty does not arise. We did not take it out of the hands of hon. Members. We said we would do our best to effect a settlement. We still intend to carry out that promise, but surely it is not wrong that we should, as a preliminary step, state the effect of our proposals in this way. If they do not wish to make any communication to us they do not need to, but it is surely reasonable that we should give them an opportunity.
Will he state what the proposal is?
Are these communications to be regarded as confidential, and, in the event of no reply, or a negative reply being received from any of the parties, will a statement still be made on Monday?
Would it not be a great convenience to the Irish party to release Mr. MacGuinness from Lewes Gaol before Monday next?
May I ask the Leader of the House whether, in view of the question addressed to him from the benches behind, in view of the fact that I am a duly elected Member of this House, and that I have recently proved that, although I am not a leader of a party, I am a leader of an effective majority in Ireland, will he say whether I am to get a copy of this communication?
In reply to my right hon. Friend (Sir H. Dalziel), the communication will be addressed without marking it as private. Whether or not it is made public afterwards will depend upon circumstances. As regards the question of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ginnell) I was not aware that he is the leader of a majority in Ireland. At all events, we are dealing with parties in this House, and from that point of view I do not think it would be desirable to send him a copy.
Will the Leader of the House—
I understand that the communication will not be confidential?
No.
It will be open to any of those who receive it to impart it to any of the newspapers at once if they choose?
Certainly.
Is that not making the announcement to the public through the Press, rather than through the House of Commons?
As I have said, it will not be marked "Private," and of course anyone who receives it will have the right to make it public if he pleases. [An HON. MEMBER: "Nice treatment of the House of Commons!"] That does not take away from what I have previously said—that it is an advantage that the leaders of the parties should have an idea what our proposals are before we announce them to the House of Commons.
Could not that result have been obtained by making the statement to the House, and postponing the discussion for a few days?
I daresay. There are many methods of dealing with the subject, and the one we have chosen we think the best.
May I ask whether, without consideration as to the methods by which the proposals of the Government are conveyed to respective parties, the Prime Minister will come down here on Monday next and make a Statement to the House of Commons?
Most certainly. In any case, he will come to the House of Commons and make a statement on this subject.
If facilities are given to certain people to communicate to the Press communications which have not been previously communicated to the House of Commons, is not that a breach of the privileges of the House of Commons?
That seems to me a question which should be addressed to Mr. Speaker, but, as a matter of fact, if my right hon. Friend is right, it means that there never can be communications with individuals by His Majesty's Government as regards the policy of the Government, unless they are marked "Private" to prevent their subsequent publication.
If the right hon. Gentleman (Sir F. Banbury) asks me, I may say it is not a question of privilege of any sort or kind. Surely the Government are entitled to inform anyone they choose of any information they have got.
If it is communicated to the Press, the Press will know what has taken place before the Members of the House of Commons.
It is always open to the Government to give communications direct to the Press.
They are quite at liberty to ignore the House of Commons, are they not?
I wish to put a question as to public business, namely, when will the Finance Bill be printed?
I hope it will be printed and circulated this week, and taken next week.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Munitions of War (Amendment) Bill will be taken on Friday?
No, it will not be taken on Friday.
May I have an opportunity of asking the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House whether we shall have an opportunity on Monday of debating the subject of the statement issued to the Leaders of the Irish parties?
I thought I had already said that such an opportunity will be given. I cannot say now in what form, but certainly it will be given.
Representation of the People Bill
I beg to move, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Law with respect to Parliamentary and local government franchises and the registration of Parliamentary and local government electors, and the conduct of elections, and to provide for the redistribution of seats at Parliamentary elections; and for other purposes connected therewith."
I am sure the House will regret the absence of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, but they will rejoice that he is restored to health, that he is back at duty, and hopes to be in his place when this Bill, which I ask leave to introduce to-day, comes for Second Reading, and to be ready then to take charge of it. The Government would not have asked the House for leave to introduce this Bill under what is known as the Ten Minutes' Rule if it were not for the fact that the Bill deals with a question which has already formed the subject of most elaborate examination by a Conference presided over by you, Sir. The recommendations of that Conference have been in possession of Members of the House of Commons and the country for many months, and as a matter of fact the general question was discussed when a Resolution was moved in this House some weeks ago, when, as the House will remember, by a really overwhelming majority this House gave the Government instructions to put into a Bill the recommendations of Mr. Speaker's Conference. And may I remind the House further that this is not an ordinary Government Bill? It is the result, as I have said, of a Conference. At that Conference all parties—indeed, I might say all sections—of this House were represented, and therefore it comes before the House, not with the ordinary recommendation of a Government, but as a product of all parties, and I may add that in its preparation the same rule has been followed, inasmuch as the Government Committee responsible for turning Mr. Speaker's recommendations into the form of a Bill was composed of men representing many shades of political opinion. The Bill deals, as the House will be prepared to hear, with all the recommendations of the Conference—franchise, regis- tration, the conduct and cost of elections, redistribution, and other questions—and I think the House will find that we have rigidly adhered to the recommendations of the Conference in our preparation of the Bill. The measure is necessarily complicated and technical in its character. When you have disposed of what I may call the question of principle, whether you shall extend your franchise, and, if so, in what direction, the rest is really very technical. I hope I may be forgiven for asking the House, if they find themselves puzzled by any of its provisions, to reserve their opinion until they have seen the Bill, and until it comes to the Second Reading, when any questions can, of course, be answered, and I believe will be answered satisfactorily. The provisions of the Bill include the franchise for men. We sweep away all the existing complicated and mysterious qualifications, and we put in their place two simple qualifications. There is a period of six months for residence and occupation of business premises of the annual value of £10. We include the enfranchisement of women on the lines indicated in Mr. Speaker's Conference by a majority of that Conference, and we fix the age at which women shall be qualified to vote at thirty. We make provision for sailors and soldiers who are fighting for their country. We make provision for absent voters as suggested in the recommendations; we include proportional representation in a limited form; we include university representation and extend it to the new universities; we sweep away even the more complicated local government franchise and substitute for it the simple occupation franchise.
Does that include women?
Women are already included in the local government franchise.
Not women's suffrage?
Women's suffrage deals with the Parliamentary suffrage. The local government franchise already includes women.
Not in England on the Parliamentary basis.
The attitude of the Government I can describe very briefly. With regard to the greater number of the proposals, we put them into the Bill and we shall do our best to secure their adoption by this House. There are, however, three proposals which stand in a somewhat different position. They are the sailors and soldiers, the enfranchisement of women, and proportional representation. With regard to the first, it has been generally discussed here and in the country, and the universal opinion has been in favour of a very wide measure of enfranchisement for those fighting for us on sea and land, and that proposal goes into the Bill as an integral part. With regard to the enfranchisement of women and proportional representation, the Government feel, as has already been announced by the Prime Minister, that these two questions are in a somewhat different category, and the Government propose to leave them to be decided by the House on the clear understanding that they are to be considered by the House and rejected or adopted as; recommended by the Speaker's Conference. The Bill deals with the subject of registration.
Is that not subject to amendment?
We take the proposals as they are made in the Speaker's Conference. We deal with registration. We simplify the present very complicated machinery, and we throw half the cost upon the State. We deal with redistribution on the lines recommended by the Conference. A Boundary Commission has been set up—in fact, it has had its first sitting—and the Government have been fortunate enough to secure the services of Mr. Speaker as Chairman. The members for England are:
Sir Samuel B. Provis, K.C.B., well known as the head of the Local Government Board;
Sir Thomas H. Elliott, K.C.B., who has served at the Local Government Board and the Board of Agriculture;
Colonel C. F. Close, R.E., C.B., C.M.G., Director-General of Ordnance Survey; and Mr. W. T. Jerred, C.B.
There will also be two members for Scotland, and the House will realise that in the constitution of this Commission the same principle has been followed in the spirit, namely, that it is constituted on strictly non-political lines, and it is composed of men who by their training and knowledge ought to be able to deal with this question.
Who are the members for Scotland?
I do not know, but the Secretary for Scotland hopes to be able to announce the names to-morrow. The Government propose to lay as a White Paper the appointment of the Commission and the instructions which will be given. That, I think, exhausts the provisions of the Bill. The House may be interested to know before I sit down that the Bill has this much, at any rate, to be said for it in advance—that we repeal wholly no less than thirty-one existing Statutes dealing with this question, and we repeal partly no less than thirty-two, and this is all accomplished in a Bill containing a little over thirty Clauses with the Schedule. There has been a report in certain quarters—not, I imagine, very friendly either to the Bill or to the Government—that we were shortening the Bill by handing over everything to be done by Orders in Council. I need hardly say that there is no foundation for that statement, and if hon. Members will examine the Bill they will find that everything is contained within its four corners either in the Clauses or in the Schedule, and indeed to a large extent we have followed the precedent of the Reform Act of 1885, and we are dealing with this question in very much the same way.
Is there a proposal to have all the elections on one day?
I am very much obliged to the hon. Member for raising that point. We deal also with elections and the conduct of elections and their cost, and the Bill proposes to enact that they should all be held on one day. These are all really to be found in the recommendations of Mr. Speaker's Conference. The Bill includes all these recommendations, and really all we have done has been to translate the language of those recommendations into the language of the Bill. It has been urged in some quarters that we ought not to introduce a Bill of this kind which is controversial during the War. All I can say is that those of my hon. Friends in any quarter of the House who hold that view deliberately ignore the fact that the whole of the country have decided that no election can take place unless soldiers and sailors, our fighting men, are enfranchised. It has been proved by demonstration on the floor of this House times without number that you cannot do that without opening up the whole question of the franchise. [An HON. MEMBER: "No!"] My hon. Friend says "No!" The remarkable thing is that we have had more than one Debate and nobody yet has produced a working scheme, which they ought to have produced a long time ago. It has not been produced, and I am convinced that such a scheme cannot be produced.
Therefore, for that reason alone, the introduction of this Bill is justified. We are told that this is a dying Parliament. I maintain that that is no criticism at all unless you are prepared to say that if there were a dissolution this Parliament would be replaced by one of a totally different character, and that the new Parliament would have a mandate to reject proposals of this kind. I do not believe the most determined opponent of this Bill will suggest either that the Parliament would be materially altered, or that the country would reject this most necessary reform. May I remind the House that every Reform Bill that has ever been passed, with the exception of one, and that only because the election was taken upon it, has been introduced at the end of a Parliament. It is inevitable that it should be, because when the Reform Bill is brought in Parliament dies, and no new Parliament deals with a question which leads to its own destruction. I do not think, therefore, that there is very much force in those objections.
There is only one other word, and I say it in all seriousness in my position as Secretary of State for the Colonies. During the recent Conference over which I had the great honour of presiding, there was opened out to us, perhaps more fully and completely than to those outside those walls, the magnitude and the urgency of the problems that await us when the War is over. Our enemies will no sooner have sheathed the sword than they will draw the pen and try to retrieve in the field of commerce, industry, and business the defeat that they will have suffered in the field of battle. Is our progress to be stopped, and are we to be compelled the moment the War is over to devote months, and it may be two or three years, to the settlement of this domestic question, or are we to be ready in time, so that we can face and deal with those vast Imperial problems that await us? I have no hesitation, old Conservative though I am, in recommending this Bill to the House of Commons and to the country, believing, as I firmly do, that our first duty is to set our own house in order, so that we may be able to deal satisfactorily with all those great questions which are so closely bound up with the future, with the prosperity, and with the very existence of our Empire.
On a point of Order. May I ask whether your former decision, when you ruled out the last Reform Bill because women were introduced into it, will apply to this Bill in the event of the House being unable to come to a conclusion with regard to the women and determining to proceed with a Bill not in accordance with its original introduction?
The ruling would not be applicable, because in this case, as I understand, a Clause providing for the vote for women is included in the Bill. The door is open to the House to strike it out; that would not be an addition to but it would be a diminution from the Bill as passed on Second Reading.
Would it not, in accordance with your ruling, alter the character of the Bill as originally introduced?
It would alter the character of the Bill in one sense, but it would not so alter it as to make it a new Bill. Assuming the House passes the Second Reading, it will have assented to the principle of including women, and supposing at a later stage the House strikes out the Clause which contains the Franchise for women, it will not have adopted any new general principle, although it will have altered one of the Clauses.
It will have altered the character of the Bill.
It will not have affected the general character of the Bill.
I confess that I rise with some reluctance, but from a sense of what I believe to be a public duty as one of the oldest Members of this Assembly, to oppose this measure. I do so on three main grounds, in spite of what has fallen from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies. The first one is, in my opinion, the unconstitutional and unrepresentative character of the Conference over which you, Sir, presided. In no sense could the Conference be called representative. The Members who formed it represented nobody but themselves. I also feel, again in spite of what has been said by my right hon. Friend, that the introduction of this Bill is a gross breach of the undertaking which was given that no really contentious business should be introduced during the progress of the War. My third point is that if this measure is persevered with it will in its passage through the House, and especially at the Committee stage, rouse all those party feelings between us which have been quenched for the time being. That, to my mind, is inevitable in a measure of this kind, and in that event it will seriously affect the successful prosecution of the War. Neither I nor those who think with me object in the slightest degree to a large and a generous extension of the franchise. We are strongly in favour of it. The difference between us and the Mover of the Motion is the time and the extent to which that extension should take place. We urge that for the present the extension should be only to those who have served us in the Army, in. the Navy, and in the mercantile marine, for whose inclusion in the register of the voters at the next General Election the country have expressed their desire, and that the larger question of comprehensive reform should be delayed until after the conclusion of the War, and should then be dealt with by a new Parliament really representative of the country.
That brings me to another question of reform, namely, that of the House of Lords, which is closely bound up with any reform of this Assembly. After the General Election in January, 1910, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Fife (Mr. Asquith) told us that he had received a distinct mandate from the country for the reform of that Assembly, and not very long afterwards, in March, 1910, he used these words in a speech in the House of Commons:
the reform of the House of Lords, nothing has been done to this day, and now at this moment he, I believe, as one of the prime movers in the Speaker's Conference, is prepared to undertake the reform of the House of Commons, for which no mandate whatever has yet been received from the country. There is no doubt that the extension of reform in many respects is a matter of degree; but in the proposals of the Government two matters of the highest principle are involved, namely, proportional representation and female suffrage. On a question of principle you cannot have any compromise whatever; you must either maintain your principles or you must abandon them. Some of us who have been fighting for years in regard to these two principles find that the ground is to be cut from under our feet, and that the opinions of our colleagues—a body of most estimable Gentlemen—are to take the place of our own convictions, and what we have been fighting for for many years is to be taken away from, us, in spite of the fact that we feel intensely on the subject. That appears to be a very dangerous policy for any Government to pursue in the midst of the great War in which we are engaged at the present time. Look at the question of proportional representation: it is one of the most difficult for any educated person to understand, and to the ordinary uninitiated, partially educated elector it presents a perfect morass of perplexity. We are to rush blindfold into this system in regard to which the Prime Minister told us only a few weeks ago that he had not studied it at all. I think we should pause before committing ourselves in that headlong manner to a change in the foundations of our great Parliamentary institutions. Now I come to female suffrage. Many of us have lost friendships and incurred enmities in regard to this subject. Are we still not to be allowed in the ordinary manner, by means of a Bill specially dealing with that question, to discuss it in this House? Are we suddenly to have all our positions swept away, and the franchise conferred on women in spite of the convictions we hold? During the progress of the War a Bill containing all these contentious elements is sure to produce strife among us, and if it does produce that strife, as I feel confident it will, it will materially interfere with the triumphant and successful conclusion of the War.
May I, Sir, say one word, personal to yourself? It is not contentious.
Under the Standing Order I am only allowed to call upon two speakers.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir George Cave, Mr. Long, Mr. Munro, Mr. Duke, Mr. Arthur Henderson, Mr. Hayes Fisher, Sir Gordon Hewart, and Mr. Brace.
REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL,—"to amend the Law with respect to Parliamentary and local government franchises and the registration of Parliamentary and local government electors, and the conduct of elections, and to provide for the redistribution of seats at Parliamentary elections; and for other purposes connected therewith," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 49.]
Consolidated Fund (No. 3) Bill
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.
CLAUSE 1 (Issue of £500,033,230 Out of the Consolidated Fund for the Service of the Year ending 31st March, 1918) ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 2 (Power for the Treasury to Borrow.)
(1) The Treasury may borrow from any person, by the issue of Treasury Bills or otherwise, and the Bank of England and the Bank of Ireland may advance to the Treasury on the credit of the said sums, any sum or sums not exceeding in the whole five hundred million thirty-three thousand two hundred and thirty pounds.
(2) The date of payment of any Treasury Bills issued under this Section shall be a date not later than the thirty-first day of March, one thousand nine hundred and eighteen, and Section six of the Treasury Bills Act, 1877 (which relates to the renewal of bills), shall not apply with respect to those bills.
(3) Any money borrowed otherwise than on Treasury Bills shall be repaid, with interest not exceeding five pounds per cent per annum, out of the growing produce of the Consolidated Fund, at any period not later than the next succeeding quarter to that in which the money was borrowed.
(4) Any money borrowed under this Section shall be placed to the credit of the account of the Exchequer, and shall form part of the said Consolidated Fund, and be available in any manner in which such Fund in available.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
This Clause deals with the question of Treasury Bills, and I desire to raise the question of the payment of Income Tax on such Bills. A great diversity of opinion exists upon the matter. It seems to me perfectly clear that Income Tax is payable on Treasury Bills, but the greatest possible doubt exists upon this point, and I would urge the Chancellor of the Exchequer to consider, seeing that we are authorising the issue of this large amount of Treasury Bills, whether it would be worth while for the Treasury to make known their position more widely than it is at present.
I am afraid the matter cannot be raised here. It is a question that can be discussed on the Third Reading, but not in Committee.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause 3 (Short Title) ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Bill reported, without Amendment; to be read the third time to-morrow.
Venereal Disease Bill [Lords]
As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Consent of Attorney-General.)
No prosecution shall be instituted under this Act without the consent of the Attorney-General.— [Mr. Rawlinson.]
Clause brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."
As the House is aware under this Bill certain very stringent penalties are liable to be inflicted upon chemists and others who break its provisions. For instance, under this Bill a chemist shall not sell certain remedies for venereal diseases, and if he acts in contravention of these provisions he is liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding two years or on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £100, or to imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding six months. Very serious charges might easily be preferred against a chemist, and I suggest that the safeguard should be inserted which is contained in other Acts of Parliament, namely, that a private individual shall not have the right, simply because he has been sold six pennyworth of stuff by a chemist, to take proceedings against him and thereby cause him a great amount of annoyance. It is a very small protection that I propose. It is that no proceedings shall be taken under this Bill without the consent of the Attorney-General. If there is a genuine case of a breach of the provisions of the Bill by a chemist, quack, or doctor, there will not be the slightest difficulty in obtaining the consent of the Attorney-General. Some such protection ought to be given to people affected by the Bill.
I beg to second the Motion.
When we were considering a similar Clause in the Criminal Law Amendment Bill upstairs, something of this sort was proposed, and the Government then stated that they considered it might be possible to protect the vendor from the common informer. I think this new Clause would be extremely useful. The offences created by this Bill are not in some cases easily defined. It will be open to a rival trader or the rival proprietors of medicines to institute proceedings and cause a great deal of trouble. It is not unreasonable to ask, when you are creating new offences of this sort, that you should protect the public and those who may be liable to a prosecution from frivolous proceedings. I anticipate that the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill might not be able to accept the new Clause in its present form, for the reason that the Bill provides for certain things being done by local and public authorities. I do not know whether I am speaking for the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Rawlinson), but, speaking for myself, I should be quite satisfied if the Government accepted the proposal in a form providing that no proceedings should be instituted by anybody except a local or public authority without the consent of the Attorney-General. I can quite understand the Government saying that it would be too cumbersome for a local authority to have to apply for the permission of the Attorney-General every time they wanted to take proceedings, and I should be satisfied if they were allowed to take such proceedings as they thought necessary. The only point with which I am concerned is to prevent the mere common informer taking proceedings. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman, if he cannot see his way to accept the new Clause in this form, will put in an Amendment limiting the right to take proceedings to local public authorities, and that if anyone else wants to take proceedings he must obtain the fiat of the Attorney-General.
This new Clause has been very carefully considered by the Government, and I regret that I cannot accept it either in its present form or in the form suggested by the hon. Member for Stepney (Mr. Glyn-Jones). I do not anticipate that the common informer will play at all a large part in the prosecutions under this Bill. As my hon. Friend the Member for Stepney said, they are much more likely to be instituted by the local authorities. What will be the result if we accept this new Clause? For a trifling offence it would not be possible to set on foot any prosecution without first going through the elaborate process of getting the opinion of the Attorney-General and his leave to prosecute. Most of these proceedings will be in the nature of summary proceedings before magistrates, and most of them will probably be met by a very small fine. It is true that a fine of £100 is mentioned, but, as my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Rawlinson) knows perfectly well, it is quite common to put it in in that form.
I have never heard of it in regard to a court of summary jurisdiction. There may be such cases, but I am doubtful on the point.
These will be summary cases dealing with small offences, and to say that a prosecution of this kind should only be brought with the leave of the Attorney-General is to put a very large impediment in the way of enforcing the Bill. We have now two Under-Secretaries for one or two Departments, but I am afraid we should have to have four Attorneys-General if we are always to associate the Attorney-General with a prosecution for offences of this sort.
I am glad the right hon. Gentleman has refused to accept the Clause if for no other reason than that it could not apply in the United Kingdom. It would have no effect at any rate in Scotland, and I am surprised that the hon. and learned Gentleman should take such a narrow view as to propose it. The Attorney-General has no jurisdiction in Scotland, and we have not an Attorney-General of our own. It is an unwise Clause.
I am sorry I offended the hon. Member by not putting in suitable words for Scotland, but I am sure it was quite unnecessary, because Scots have long since taken care to protect themselves. I am exceedingly sorry the Government have not seen their way to give some protection such as I suggest, because it is very badly needed. If what the right hon. Gentleman said about the excessive work of the Attorney-General was meant seriously, I should be perfectly content to substitute the consent of the Public Prosecutor for that of the Attorney-General to a prosecution.
Question put, and negatived.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Obligation to Consult a Doctor.)
Every person who knows that he, or she, is suffering from venereal disease in a communicable form who fails to consult a medical practitioner within a reasonable time shall be guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction with a penalty not exceeding five pounds.— [Mr. Rawlinson.]
Clause brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."
A very large number of people are interested in the tremendous importance of stamping out this disease. On one or two occasions since I have been on these Committees I have been taken round different hospitals where it is being treated, and the magnitude of the evil is hardly realised even by members of the Committee, and I do not think even the Government realises the importance of it. Practically all the Government is doing to meet it is to set up places where people can go to be cured. That is an excellent scheme, and one desires to support it in every way one can, but they are doing nothing to make persons who are suffering from the disease take advantage of the institutions they are setting up and there is great difficulty in getting people to go to an institution or to a medical practitioner. Beyond the Clauses in the Criminal Law Amendment Act which make it an offence to communicate venereal disease in certain circumstances from one person to another, practically no step is being taken to enforce reasonable precautions against passing on the disease or to compel those suffering from it to consult medical practitioners. I shall feel a very great sense of disappointment if the Bill goes out to the country in its present form. It has been referred to upstairs as a somewhat close corporation for the medical profession, preventing chemists or herbalists, or quack practitioners evading it in any way. That is the negative part of the Bill. You have people going about suffering from the disease in a communicable form and no steps are being taken to compel them to undergo treatment or to abstain from passing it on. This is a very small measure of reform which the Government might concede. They have not conceded very much on this Bill. It would be of use directly and indirectly. If his associates know that a particular man is suffering from the disease, it would be a great advantage to be able to say, "If you do not take medical opinion at once you will be liable to be summoned before a police court." For these reasons, I ask the House to take a favourable view of the Clause.
I beg to second the Motion.
I can see that certain objections may be raised. In the first place, we may be asked: What is a reasonable time, and it may not be easy to lay down a definition of what is a reasonable time. But take any concrete case you can possibly think of and it will be perfectly easy to say whether a reasonable time has or has not elapsed. I do not think that objection is a very serious one. Then it will occur to everyone that medical men will be very reluctant to inform upon a patient. Of course, it will touch very closely upon professional conduct in a certain sense. Therefore, I do not expect that the information will come from medical men except in extreme cases in which it ought to come, and for that reason I should have been inclined to think the Clause would have too little operation to make it worth while to pass it. But on the other hand people in whom young men have confidence will know when there is a probability or possibility of the disease being contracted and can caution them that if it happens they must immediately consult a medical man and they will be strongly reinforced if a Clause like this can be pointed to in an Act of Parliament. I do not say the Bill will have much operation except in that direction, but in that direction it will be exceedingly valuable, and as it does not seem to injure the Bill in any other respect I should be quite glad to see the Government accept it.
I hope the Government will not agree to insert this Clause. The object, of course, is a desirable one, but it belongs to a class of legislation which is constantly being proposed and which utterly neglects practicality. How in the name of common sense could anyone undertake to prove that a person was aware that he was subject to venereal disease in a communicable form? A medical man could prove it as the result of examination, but for a person to be aware that he is suffering from it in a communicable form is a condition of mind, and what evidence could you produce in a court that he was aware of it? The only chance of obtaining any proof would be that someone to whom he had spoken in confidence should betray his confidence. That is not a good foundation on which to introduce a Clause of this character. I do not think the Bill will be a success at all, but if you pass it it had better not contain Clauses of this kind, which can only come into operation either as a result of eavesdropping or a betrayal of confidence.
The difficulty of proving whether anyone who had this disease really knew that he had it at the actual time in a communicable form is a real though not, perhaps, a very great one. The Seconder of the Clause also referred to the difficulty of the interpretation of a reasonable time in which to consult a doctor and seek his advice. But it is not on these narrow grounds that I am going to oppose the Clause. I oppose it because it is part of the policy of imposing penalties upon the unhappy victims of this disease. It is contrary to the policy that the Government is endeavouring to establish—the policy not of penalties but of persuasion, the policy of putting all facilities in the way of doctors for diagnosing the disease and in the way of the victims of the disease for free and confidential treatment, and thus endeavouring to get everyone who is afflicted with it to come in at the earliest possible moment and to seek the best possible form of cure. My hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Rawlinson) and I agree in one thing at all events, that it is most important that as soon as possible we should do our best to stamp out the disease, and that its infectious nature and its unhappy consequences make it all the more necessary that we should adopt all the most modern methods to reduce the period of infection and to restrict the spread of the disease. I think that my hon. and learned Friend is a little wanting in generosity towards the efforts of the Government in this direction. Let me remind the House of what we have actually done up to the present. After all, the Royal Commission only reported last year, but even so, we have already established schemes for the diagnosis and treatment of the disease in 98 out of 145 councils. The total population of the areas of those councils is about 25,500,000, and no fewer than sixty-five schemes, serving a population of over 20,000,000, have been approved, and work has already started at forty-seven hospitals. It is estimated that the facilities provided at these hospitals will serve a population of at least 14,000,000. The evidence coming in to the Local Government Board shows that the new treatment is being very largely availed of, and young men and women who have hitherto neglected this disease when they found they had it are now finding that the new treatment is free and is of the most confidential character, and in consequence these young people are coming in large numbers to the new centres, and we have very great hope that the policy of peaceful persuasion which we have adopted will achieve the object which both my hon. and learned Friend and I have in view. If this policy of persuasion is found to be ineffective after it has been tried for a couple of years, I am not at all averse to considering, follow- ing the recommendations of the Royal Commission, whether it should not be classified with other diseases which are made publicly notifiable. That is all I can say to encourage the hopes of my hon. and learned Friend. I hope he will agree with me that at present, at all events, our policy is a wise one in endeavouring rather to persuade people to go in and be treated in this way, than to impose penalties on them if they fail to consult doctors, or to go to any of these centres.
I think the Minister in charge of the Bill is wise in declining to accept the new Clause proposed by the hon. and learned Member. Hon. Members hardly realise the enormous change that has taken place in regard to the provision for the treatment of this particular disease. It is not very long since that treatment of this disease was refused in many large public hospitals. It was considered an indelicate matter, and one which ought not to be dealt with by charitable funds. Now under the administrative provisions made by the Local Government Board, not only is wide provision made, confidential in its nature, gratuitous and publicly provided, but under this Bill an exceptional step is being taken, so that in this particular class of practice unqualified advice is to be suppressed. At the very time when the Government, by large expenditure of money, is making provision to induce the sufferers from this disease to take advantage of the gratuitous treatment provided, and when at the same time steps are being taken for the suppression of the unqualified practitioner, it seems to me to be inopportune to bring in this punitive and exceptional proposal, and that while suppressing the heterodox, you compel consultation with the orthodox. I do not think the orthodox practitioner would ask for that assistance, or the support of the magistrate and policeman in securing consultation. The hon. and learned Member's proposal does not carry out what he desires to achieve. It only requires compulsory consultation with a medical man. As I understand his Clause, there is no compulsory treatment involved in it. Therefore, the hon. and learned Member cannot claim that, even if his proposal is adopted, there would be necessarily any reduced period of infectivity on the part of the person suffering from this disease. He cannot, therefore, bring in the analogy of infec- tious disease in support of the proposal that he makes. I do not think that this punitive and exceptional Clause is required. It is least of all desired when the voluntary provision is so large, and when you are doing all that is possible to suppress unqualified practice.
I agree with the hon. Member that I have not made any suggestion to enforce the taking of treatment after consultation with a medical man. I have sufficient confidence in the medical man to believe that he will persuade the patient to do something when he gets him. The object of my Clause is to ensure that people should consult a medical practitioner when they know they are suffering from this disease in a communicable form. I agree with the statement of the right hon. Gentleman as regards the large amount of work that has been done already, but that is a very different thing from saying that he has succeeded in getting people to go for treatment in large numbers up to the present time. The right hon. Gentleman looks forward to the future, which he admits to be somewhat remote, when he will give me the one thing which I do not want, and which I am strongly opposed to, and that is compulsory notification of the disease. That is not this Amendment. I want to make that quite plain. My proposal is not the compulsory notification of the disease. I have not suggested that here or elsewhere, because I have many reasons against it. I think the smallest thing the Government can do to assist in stamping out this terrible disease, is not that persons should be compelled to notify the disease, but that they should be compelled to go to a medical practitioner, either to one of the practitioners at the centres set up or, failing that, to their own private practitioner. That is very different from notification of the disease. I spoke at length against that in the Committee Room upstairs. I did hope the Government would have yielded on this point. The hon. Gentleman (Sir W. Collins), who supports the Government, does not represent a large section of the medical profession. There is a distinct feeling of disappointment amongst that profession in regard to this matter. Many doctors have spoken to me on the subject, and many associations have also made representations to me and have asked me to move an Amendment upon these lines, I do not say exactly in the words of my Amendment, with a view to making it compulsory to consult a medical man.
Question put, and negatived.
CLAUSE 2.— (Penalty on Advertisements, etc.)
(1) A person shall not by any advertisement or any public notice or announcement offer to treat any person for venereal disease, or to prescribe any remedy therefor, or to give any advice in connection with the treatment thereof.
(2) A person shall not hold out or recommend to the public by any public notice or advertisement, or by any written or printed papers or handbills, or by any label or words written or printed, affixed to or delivered with, any packet, box, bottle, phial, or other inclosure containing the same, any pills, capsules, powders, lozenges, tinctures, potions, cordials, electuaries, plaisters, unguents, salves, ointments, drops, lotions, oils, spirits, medicated herbs and waters, chemical and officinal preparations whatsoever, to be used or applied externally or internally as medicines or medicaments for the prevention, cure, or relief of any venereal disease:
Provided that nothing in this Section shall apply to any advertisement, notification, announcement, recommendation, or holding out made or published with the sanction of the Local Government Board, or to any publication sent only to duly qualified medical practitioners or to wholesale or retail chemists for the purposes of their business.
I beg to move in Sub-section (1) after the word "announcement" ["public notice or announcement"] to insert the words "treat or."
In view of the next Amendment which stands on the Paper in the name of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board, I think this Amendment and the subsequent Amendment which I propose to move will be an improvement. This Sub-section makes it an offence to offer to treat, or to prescribe, or to give any advice. The right hon. Gentleman seeks, in the Amendment on the Paper, to add the words, "offer to give" advice. I think he will agree that the words I now propose, or similar words, must be inserted in front of the words which deal with treating and prescribing.
I will accept the Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, after the word "prescribe" ["or to prescribe"] to insert the words "or offer to prescribe."
I accept the Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move to leave out the word "to" ["or to give"], and to insert instead thereof the words "offer to give or."
This will make it an offence both to give or offer to give advice.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move at the beginning of Sub-section (2) to insert the words, "On and after the 1st day of November, nineteen hundred and seventeen."
I move this Amendment, because it has been represented to me that chemists may have large supplies of these packets, boxes, bottles, phials, and so on, with labels attached, and by inserting this Amendment that the Clause shall not operate so far as Sub-section (2) is concerned until after the 1st day of November, 1917, it will give them an opportunity to dispose of their stocks.
Does Clause 2 come into operation upon that date for all purposes?
It will come into operation then.
All over England or only in certain areas?
The bringing of the Bill into operation in certain areas only applies to Clause 1 and not to Clause 2.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, to leave out the word "public" ["any public notice"'].
It has been represented that some of these recommendations or advertisements are sent to undergraduates and young people in institutions, and that might not be prescribed as a public notice. Therefore, I move to leave out the word "public."
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, after the word "published" ["made or pub- lished"], to insert the words, "by any local or public authority or made or published."
This Amendment is moved to obviate the necessity for local or public authorities, that is to say, any local authority or any hospital authority, having to seek the sanction of the Local Government Board before they can issue any advertisement, notification, announcement, or recommendation of the kind prescribed in Subsection (2). There is no necessity for local authorities or public hospitals to seek the sanction of the Local Government Board.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, after the word "Board" ["Local Government Board"], to insert the words, "or in Scotland and Ireland the Local Government Board for Scotland and Ireland respectively."
This is a drafting Amendment in order to apply the Bill in the proper way to Scotland and Ireland.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move to leave out the words, "to any publication sent only to duly qualified medical practitioners or to wholesale or retail chemists for the purposes of their business," and to insert instead thereof the words "any bonâ fide medical and pharmaceutical publication or pharmaceutical trade list."
The words I propose are taken from the other Act of Parliament which is running alongside this one, namely, the Criminal Law Amendment Bill. The words were inserted in that Bill, if I remember rightly, after discussion, and they seem to me to have an advantage over the words in the present Bill, because this Bill has a certain amount of vagueness in the words "any publication sent only to duly qualified medical practitioners or to wholesale or retail chemists for the purposes of their business." The words I propose have an additional advantage in that we shall have the same words in both Acts of Parliament. When the words have to be construed in a Court of law, the judge, who may never have been in the House of Commons, will not have to spend time trying to discover why one Government Department chooses one set of words and another Government Department another set of words.
I beg to second the Amendment.
The object I think my hon. and learned Friend has in view is the same as I have in view myself. It is to stop the advertisement of certain remedies for venereal diseases. My hon. and learned Friend says that it is advisable that two Acts of Parliament which deal with the same subject, although they deal with it from different points of view, should do so in the same language. I am not going to contest that, because I think it would be advisable. My hon. and learned Friend, however, goes on to say that he prefers words he has seen in another Bill, the Criminal Law Amendment Bill, to the words used in my Bill. He has evidently not studied his Parliamentary Papers with the accuracy with which he generally does, because if he had done so he would have discovered that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary (Sir G. Cave) has put down an Amendment to adapt the words in the Bill he is endeavouring to pass through this House in order to make them harmonise with the words we have used in our Bill. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has paid us the tribute of choosing our words rather than his own by putting down that Amendment. I think the words of my hon. and learned Friend opposite are too wide, and that they would really to a certain extent defeat the operation of this Sub-section. I think if his words were adopted, advantage might very easily be taken of them by certain people who wanted to advertise these remedies for the purpose of gain, and that we should not secure as well as by my words the stopping of this particular kind of advertisement, which is of a most deleterious character.
If that is so, and if at last a Government Amendment that seems to be of some use is going to be carried, I must ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
I want to direct the attention of the House to the fact that when this Bill was in Grand Committee it was pointed out to the Government that its operation would for the first time be to give to the medical profession an exclusive right which they did not previously pos- sess, and that the Bill also dealt with the various forms of treatment and the sale of remedies for these diseases and would take away not only from the quack who has been carrying on his business in times past, although perhaps legally still almost one might say to the detriment of the State, the power of carrying on his business as a quack, but that in addition it would very seriously limit certain rights which respectable pharmacists have had and have hitherto exercised. Upstairs the case was put to the Government that if they are to hand over this exclusive right to the doctors—in other words, if they are to compel everybody suffering from these diseases to go to a doctor, and not, as many of them, rightly or wrongly, in times past have done, to purchase remedies from pharmacists and others—it is only reasonable to say in regard to these diseases that the same principle shall apply as applies under the National Health Insurance Act, namely, that the doctor shall do his business, that of prescribing, and that the pharmacist shall do his, namely, that of dispensing the remedy. That was argued upstairs in Committee, and that Amendment was defeated.
If we were living in normal times the pharmacists would have attempted to put their case before the House on the Report stage, but they recognise that we are not living in normal times, that this is put forward as a war measure, and that if the Government, having listened to arguments in Committee upstairs, are not prepared to accept Amendments, it is little more than waste of time, and perhaps worse, to raise these points again on the Report stage. On Third Reading, however, I do think I ought to say to the Government that the pharmacists hope that when the Government deal, as apparently sooner or later they will have to deal, with the whole question of the treatment of diseases, not merely these particular diseases mentioned in this Bill, but by the setting up possibly of a Ministry of Public Health, that then the whole question of the relationship between the two branches of the profession will be considered, and that any grievance which the pharmacists can reasonably put forward will then be considered in relation to the question as a whole. It is because the pharmacists have taken that view that they have not, on the Report stage, troubled the House with that series of Amendments which they found it necessary to put before the Grand Committee. I think that, in fairness to them, it is necessary that I should say this.
I raised in Committee the objection that this Bill was only to have partial operation instead of being applied all over the country, and I instanced a difficulty to which the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hayes Fisher) gave no reply. I therefore briefly refer to it again in order to give him an opportunity to make a reply. The first Clause provides that in any area in which that section is in operation, no person, unless he is a duly qualified medical practitioner, shall for reward, either direct or indirect, treat any person for venereal disease. What becomes, then, of the book issued by the Board of Trade itself prescribing what captains of merchant ships are to do to treat venereal disease? That little chapter relating to venereal disease begins by saying that venereal diseases are the curse of the mercantile service. If, however, this section is only to be partially in operation, so far as I understand—at any rate I asked the right hon. Gentleman and my doubts have not been resolved—if a merchant ship started from a port in an area in which this section was in force it would when at sea, under extra-territorial jurisdiction, be subject to this Act, and the captain or other member of the crew who treated any member of the ships' company or any person suffering from venereal disease for reward direct or indirect—certainly some payment would be made by the sick person—would be subject to the penalties of this section, and if the section did not apply in the area from which the steamer started I believe he would not be subject to the penalties of this section.
I think it would be extremely undesirable in any case that he should be subject to these penalties, because obviously if he had a man on board with one of these fell diseases it would be extremely desirable that he should carry out the prescriptions in that little book which are most beneficial and useful, and that he should not be subjected to a penalty for so doing. Had the right hon. Gentleman given any answer I should not have troubled the House now. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Battersea (Mr. Burns) made a reply, but the only thing that was evident was that he had not listened to or had not understood the point. Perhaps that was my fault and not his. That, however, is the case, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will even now give himself the pains to explain how the partial operation is to work out in this respect, and how he stands with the Board of Trade, who have laid down certain prescriptions to be carried out by the captain of a ship, but the carrying out of which would make him subject to penalties under Clause 1. For my part, I also think that Clause 1 may cause harm in preventing the sale of remedies of universal application. There are such which are accepted in the medical world as being remedies of very simple application which are believed to be beneficial for the treatment of these insidious diseases. If that is the case, people should be able to avail themselves of this treatment, but in future they will not be able to obtain these household remedies and those who could supply them will not be able to supply them. I recognise to the full the intention of my right hon. Friend and of the Noble Lord who was responsible for the introduction of this Bill in another place. Whether good intentions always result in workable measures is, however, another question, and I feel extremely sceptical as to whether this will do any good. I rose because I think the right hon. Gentleman should have answered, or should have said there was no answer. I invite him now to do so. He could have conferred with his legal advisers as regards extra-territorial jurisdiction, which we all know does exist for British mercantile ships, and he could save captains of merchant ships who often have to deal with these diseases from being placed in the dilemma in which they will be placed by this Bill.
My hon. Friend is very anxious that I should give him an answer to a conundrum. He tells me that he does not believe there is an answer. There is one, but whether it will satisfy him I cannot say. The Bill says that in any area in which this section is brought into force by the Local Government Board it shall not be lawful for reward to treat any person for these diseases. My hon. Friend says: "What are you going to do when captains of merchant vessels which do not carry doctors actually under their very instructions treat men on board for this class of disease? Are you going to prosecute them?" They do not do it for reward in the first place, and in the next place they do it, I believe, under statute. I believe that they have a statutory right and duty so to treat. I am going to ask my hon. Friend who would think of prosecuting them, who is going to start a prosecution of this kind? We are all out for the same thing, namely, to prevent the quacks from offering to treat people suffering from these diseases and offering a treatment which is more than fallacious and probably most prejudicial to the persons who go to them merely because they want secrecy and confidence which they think they cannot get elsewhere. Having set this up we say: "It is not necessary to go to quacks; you can come to us; we shall treat you with the same secrecy; no question will be asked; we shall treat you." I do not think my hon Friend will imagine that there is any danger to this splendid captain of one of our magnificent merchant vessels—
I did not say anything about magnificent. Indeed I referred to small and undistinguished ships.
I withdraw the word magnificent, although I think they are all magnificent. There is no danger to such a captain who is treating on board, because of a statutory requirement and not for any reward, one of his sailors who, through going into a port, has contracted one of these diseases.
It is not only the captain. This might be done for a reward of half-a-crown or some other reward by any member of the crew who had charge of a box containing these things.
5.0 P.M.
Really, I think that is more a phantasy than anything to suggest that some member of a crew should go up to one of his friends on board and say "I will treat you for 2s. 6d." Who is going to give evidence in that case? Is the man who has been treated by his mate, and who has given him 2s. 6d. for it, is he going to say I will bring him before the magistrates under this Bill and get him fined for what he has done? Now I do not think my hon. Friend need have any apprehension at all that a man will do any such thing. Then my hon. Friend behind me (Mr. Glyn-Jones) who has given me considerable assistance, for which I wish to express my gratitude to him, in the conduct of the Bill upstairs, says surely you ought to have taken up the whole question of the doctor and the chemist, and you ought to have entered on to the very debatable ground of settling and limiting the areas on which the doctor and the chemist should operate; for the happy time will come, and perhaps ought to come now, in which the doctor shall be the only person who can prescribe, and the chemist the only person who can dispense. I have no doubt that that is a matter well worthy our consideration some day or another. I do not say in what exact form, as to what part of the territory shall be occupied by the doctor and what part shall be occupied by the chemist. But quite apart from this being a War measure, as he calls it, he would not think this is a suitable occasion on which we should map out the respective areas of the doctor and the chemist. That may be done some day. When my hon. Friend says this is a War measure, I repeat what I said on the Second Reading, that because this Bill has been brought in and is about to be passed, because we talk of this subject so much and it occupies so much space in the newspapers, do not let the House or the country run away with the idea that this disease is largely on the increase. There are no statistics which would lead to any such gloomy and dismal conclusion. For my own part I think the report of the Royal Commission threw a very powerful searchlight, that is all it does, on a problem which has perplexed statesmen and philanthropists for many a generation. I hope this Bill, which is now about to pass with the approval of the House, will do something towards providing the remedy for this disease, will gradually diminish the number of those who suffer from it and indeed gradually stamp it out altogether, and if it does it will be one of the greatest blessings that can be given to humanity.
I wish to say just a word or two on this Bill and I hope and feel certain that it may achieve some of the objects the right hon. Gentleman has alluded to, although I gathered from some of his speeches on the Second and Third Reading he is not greatly enamoured of this type of legislation. I think Clauses 1 and 2 still retain weak and vulnerable points. As regards Clause 1 the operation of that Clause is to be partial, both in the sense of affecting only one particular class of disease in the way of suppressing the unqualified practitioner, and partial also in being applicable to certain areas. There would have been a far better argument for suppressing unqualified practitioners in those areas in which such provision for treatment was not in operation than in areas where it is in operation. In those areas where skilful treatment is provided I should not have thought it necessary to suppress unqualified practitioners, but where no such provision but only the ordinary opportunities are available to the sufferer as hitherto, I should have thought it more arguable to suppress the unqualified practitioner. It seems inconsistent to suppress him while leaving the consumption quack, the cancer quack, and may I add, though I do so with some hesitation, the bone-setter, flourishing without any restriction by statutory enactment.
As to the second Clause, the Local Government Board is brought in as an authority to decide what remedies may or may not be recommended to the public. We are told that a Ministry of Health is being considered and may be set up possibly in connection with the Local Government Board. I hope the institution of such a Ministry, if found practicable, will not operate in the direction of stereotyping medical practice. I am not sure that the power given in this Clause, which was not in the Bill as read a second time, may not be intended to institute the Local Government Board as a deciding authority as to what or what not ought to be recommended to the public as suitable treatment for certain classes of disease. Great as our confidence may be in the authority, I confess that I should hardly like to look to that quarter for deciding the remedy that is desirable for the treatment of disease. I consider the legislation somewhat faulty, certainly exceptional, though I wish it good success. I confess that I am not much more enamoured of it than I think the Parliamentary Secretary of the Local Government Board is.
I was glad to hear the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill when he acknowledged the great seriousness of this matter, but when he spoke of the disease not being on the increase I was afraid if those words stood by themselves they might lead people to overlook the fact, reported by the Royal Commission, that 10 per cent. of the population are suffering or have suffered from syphilis in some form, and a much larger number from the other form of venereal disease. I have no reason to pursue that point, but I wish to call attention to the first words of the second Sub-section of Section 2. I raised the point upstairs, that Sub-section (2) is, I think, intended to prevent the quack recommending his drugs or specifics to people whom he may deceive and get money from. I venture to think the words "to the public" may cause considerable difficulty.
I moved to leave out the word "public."
The word "public" in line 2 is left out, but what I think are the dangerous words are the words "to the public" in line 1. I put down an Amendment to leave out this line, but unfortunately I was unable to be present to move it. It seems to me that as it stands no person can be punished under this Clause unless he has held out, or recommended, something to the public. I do not know what that means. I suppose it must be done in a way that is open to everybody. What I foresee is that there may spring up a large industry in sending round letters recommending these drugs and specifics which I do not think will be covered by this Clause, because, as far as I can understand, it will not be "holding out or recommending to the public," but to so many hundreds of undergraduates, or students, or young men or young women. I would like the right hon. Gentleman to consider—I do not know whether there is any other stage, unless it goes to another place—whether it is possible at any time to amend that Clause so as to cover the evils which I have indicated. I know the right hon. Gentleman left out the word "public" to try and meet that point, acting on the suggestion I made upstairs, but I express a doubt whether it does meet the point so long as the words "to the public" are left in.
Before this Bill is finally passed I wish to enter a protest against it. I think it is a product of the erroneous psychology of the War. This is one of the crazes which from time to time have taken up the attention of the country. We have had war babies, and now there is a craze abroad that there is a tremendous amount of venereal disease and that consequently we must have a Criminal Law Amendment Bill to deal with it. Is this likely to do any good at all, beyond giving a certain preeminent position to the medical profession? We are told in the first Clause that in certain areas prescribed by the Local Government Board none but qualified medical practitioners are to be allowed to treat this disease in those areas and there will be a system of gratuitous treatment prevailing in those areas. Granted that this is a War measure, is there any likelihood that in any areas in the country you can in the present state of medical service set up institutions for gratuitous treatment in the present depleted state of the medical profession? It is wellnigh impossible to make these institutional arrangements, and if you cannot make institutional arrangements the first Clause is a dead letter; in other words, it will be impossible to do this until after the War. Surely if that is so it will be better to do it when Parliament is legislating on normal lines, and you have not the House of Commons working, as it is now, with only a small faction of its Members paying any attention to the business being done. I can well understand my hon. Friend the Member for Derby (Sir W. Collins) welcoming this measure. On the whole it is for the benefit of the profession of which he is such a distinguished ornament, and he will be very glad not only if the Clauses on these particular diseases, but also as regards quacks on consumption and cancer, and the bone-setter, as he said, were operative. That admission ought to make the lay Members of this House look upon the Bill with the utmost suspicion. There is a little agitation about the bone-setter in this House, but we know something about it. We know the advantage it has been conferring on many of our wounded soldiers by an unqualified man. It seems to me that if in the same way you are going to rule out the unqualified man in these diseases, you may ultimately achieve equally unfortunate results.
For example, this Bill practically confers the power to prescribe a remedy, which means that the existing remedy for these diseases will be stereotyped. It will depend, first of all, on the medical profession, and, secondly, on the Local Government Board or the Ministry of Health. Presumably the Board will be dominated by the Ministry of Health to say what remedies have to be prescribed in future. That is bound to prevent all progress in the treatment of these diseases. I think it is inevitable that that result will follow. Considerable advance has been made in regard to the treatment of diseases in recent years, whereas if we had had this Bill it might be that the predominant medical opinion in the country would have looked with an unfriendly eye on Professor Ehrlich's discovery. It may be if those discoveries had been made after the War, under the influence of anti-German sentiment, the medical profession might have said that anything emerging from Germany was to be looked upon with the utmost suspicion in this country. Here we have the Local Government Board, or the Ministry of Health, and the medical profession preventing a man who has a qualification from administering a remedy which possibly might be the very best remedy available. It is not an improbable situation. There have been many excellent remedies discovered for various diseases which were not approved by the medical profession, and that may happen indeed in regard to these diseases. Yet under this Bill, apart from the approval of a close corporation, the sufferer from these diseases will not be entitled to have these remedies. These seem to me to be the great objections to the Bill. As I do not see any likelihood of this Bill, which is recommended as a war measure, being brought into operation during the War, and as probably on the return of peace the people of this country will be able to look at things in their proper perspective and their right proportion, and sanity will have returned, we shall probably have an amending Bill before this Bill comes into operation, and I am inclined, therefore, to let it go.
I sincerely hope that this Bill will have the effects which have been hoped for and foreshadowed. I appreciate what my hon. Friend has just said on the subject. I hardly know that I agree with what he said in the first part of his speech, but with what he said in the second part I agree entirely. I have seen all long the danger that while the Bill was passed for one specific purpose it might be used to maintain a statutory monopoly, which does not exist at present, for a certain class. That idea had been almost banished, but it was recalled by the remarkable speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Derby, in which he said that now, when you are suppressing medical quacks in this particular branch, you ought to suppress them in other branches as well, and he gave several instances, including that of bone-setters. The vast majority of Members of this House are very much disappointed with the attitude that the War Office has taken up in regard to bone-setters, even in existing conditions, and if it were made a penal offence for bone-setters to do their work, even for grown-up people who want their services, the effect certainly would be very serious. I see my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary smile at that, but it would be the logical result of the principle now adopted. Not so long ago we had the case of the unregistered dentists. As is well known, they do most useful work in many parts of the country. There are vast areas of the country where unfortunately there are no registered dentists, and people could not have their teeth attended to at all if it were not for these unregistered practitioners. And yet advantage was taken of the conditions of the War to exclude these unregistered dentists from the supply of cocaine to which registered dentists had free access, and it was only by the combined and systematised action of a number of members of this House that proposals to do that were held up and some justice was secured for these unregistered practitioners. I only mention that to show that the danger which I fear is a real one.
There is far too much of an assumption —we have heard it from the Government Bench—that the unregistered practitioner is no good, and probably would do harm to his patient while the registered practitioner is assumed to be all right. I do not know about the particular case with which we are dealing in this Bill, but in many cases the unregistered man, though he may not be so good as the registered practitioner, is better than nobody, and in a great many cases nobody else can be got, and in such cases these men do very useful work. I do not say that as regards these particular diseases, I am in favour of this Bill. I think that on the whole it will do good, but I do not want that it should be used as a leverage for the be- ginning of a system of extending medical monopoly. There are Many unregistered practitioners in various spheres of work who are doing excellent service to the community. While the registered practitioner is practically in every case a much better and more trustworthy man, yet he is by no means infallible. I remember reading some time ago a statement by Herbert Spencer that he had been for a great part of his life in the hands of doctors. During some few years his health had been very bad and he had had the advice of no fewer than twenty-one doctors, and he said that he could safely say that of these twenty-one doctors twenty had done him harm. Perhaps that is a little high, but I do want to protest against the assumption which we had from the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill that the unregistered practitioner is for practical purposes no good while the registered practitioner—
I never made any such assumption. I particularly said on the Second Reading of this Bill that it was not intended to pursue this policy in reference to any other Bill, but that it was confined entirely to this Bill.
I am very glad that the right hon. Gentleman has taken up that attitude, and I only wish that he could have seen his way, when my hon. Friend the Member for Derby suggested that this system should be extended to other cases, to have interrupted from the Treasury Bench and said that the Government had given an assurance that that would not be done.
It is only fair to my hon. Friend the Member for Derby to say that his speech was exactly the opposite to that which the hon. Member is attributing to him. As is well known, my hon. Friend is an opponent of the general tendency to exclude all save duly qualified medical practitioners, and he said so. I am sure that my hon. and learned Friend did not understand what fell from the lips of my hon. Friend. There was no need to contradict it.
The right hon. Gentleman has correctly represented me and I am sure that the hon. and learned Gentleman does not desire to misrepresent me. I am sorry that I was not present when the remark was made. My object was to show the inconsistency in suppressing the un- qualified practitioner in one direction and not in another direction. I did not urge suppression in any.
I would certainly not intentionally do my hon. Friend the least injustice. I take it that the main point he made was the inconsistency. May I point out that inconsistencies are bound to give rise to the idea that there should be some more consistent legislation, and when we take steps in this House in certain directions, it may not be our intention that that plan should be consistently pursued in another direction; but if we do set a precedent in one direction, then however we may disclaim further intentions, the precedent which we have taken may be a stepping-stone to something further being done in future along the same lines. I do not want for a moment to attribute to my hon. Friend anything which he has not said. He knows that I would be the last in this House to do an injustice to him, but he has pointed out a danger, and though he has not any desire to extend a monopoly of this kind, he knows that, there are various members of the profession of which he is so distinguished an ornament who do desire to extend this system of monopoly, and it is only right on the occasion of the Third Reading of this Bill, whose general principles I support and which I hope may be useful, particularly in view of possible danger in the time that will follow the cessation of hostilities, to make it perfectly clear that this ought not to be taken as a precedent for any further tendency in the direction of medical monopoly, and that in fact it will be recognised that we have departed from principle and that the effects of this departure from principle will be very closely scrutinised.
I think that there is a great deal of force in the argument of my hon. Friend the Member for North-West Lanark. At the same time I think that he is probably exaggerating the position when he says that there is no hope that this scheme would be brought into operation in any area during the War. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to tell us whether some schemes have not already been submitted to the Local Government Board, and are ready for consideration immediately the Bill passes into law. If that is so, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would also tell us—because that is the real test of how this measure is likely to be applied—whether these schemes are schemes which the Local Government Board approve of and are the kinds of schemes which are likely to be brought into operation under this measure. I have seen a scheme which has been adopted by a local authority which entered into an arrangement for treatment with a county hospital. The scheme in some respects appears to be entirely admirable, but the particular point to me in which it appears to be faulty is that no adequate arrangement seems to be made for treating these cases confidentially. I regard that as a bad principle because, as the right hon. Gentleman himself has indicated in several of his speeches, the sufferer from these diseases if a man, if secrecy is not maintained, probably will not ask for assistance and then your last condition may be worse than your first.
The particular scheme which I have seen proposes that on two days in the week there shall be in attendance at the hospitals a medical man who will be in a position to deal with this particular malady and that his knowledge will be of such a special character that he will be specially fitted to deal with it and prescribe remedies. That is all to the good. But the suggestion is that the hospital need not provide a special waiting room for these men. If that is not done it would be utterly impossible for these men to have confidence that when they go to hospitals there will not be among their friends and acquaintances a knowledge of what they go there for. That, in my view, might deter them from going there at all and therefore they would not reap the advantage of this treatment. I would like to have an assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that while the Local Government Board is considering the orders which are submitted it will give very careful attention not only to the fact that the Order makes sufficient provision for treatment but also that it will make sufficient provision for the treatment being of a confidential character so that sufferers from the malady may feel that they can go there quite freely without danger of exposure among their friends and neighbours. The hon. Member for North-West Lanark said it was quite useless to contest the Third Reading of the Bill, and I think, as he thinks, that there might be very much it may do a considerable amount of good; or otherwise appears to be very largely a question of administration. If it is wisely handled by the Local Government Board it may do a considerable amount of good; if it is unwisely handled it may make the condition of things worse even than it is now. I imagine that the Local Government Board have already before them some scheme which the local authorities will put into operation, but I should like some assurance as to that before this Bill passes from the control of the House.
I have already made a speech on the Third Reading, and I am not entitled to address the House again. A number of schemes have been before the Local Government Board, and I have already impressed upon the House that it is our desire that the treatment should not only be confidential, but that identification shall be prevented, and names and addresses and occupations shall not be given. I will bear in mind what the hon. Gentleman has said, but he will see that I cannot address the House again.
Thank you very much.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read the third time, and passed.
Trade Union (Amalgamation) Bill
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. MACLEAN in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 1.—(Amalgamation of Unions.)
(1) Any two or more trade unions may by the consent of a majority of the members of each or every such trade union voting at a ballot on the question become amalgamated together as one trade union; and, accordingly, Section 12 of the Trade Union Act Amendment Act, 1876, shall have effect as if for the words "by the consent of not less than two-thirds of the members of each or every such trade union," there were substituted the words "by the consent of a majority of the members of each or every such trade union voting at a ballot on the question."
(2) For removing doubts it is hereby declared that the said Section 12 applies to the amalgamation of one or more registered trade unions with one or more unregistered trade unions.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "majority" ["consent of a majority"], to insert the words "not less than 20 per cent."
I have also an Amendment which is consequential to that which I have just moved, and which I have also handed to the Chair. The words are, "provided that not less than 50 per cent. of each and every such trade union voted in the ballot in question." The object of this Amendment is quite shortly this: At the present moment, as the Bill stands, it is in the power of any chance meeting of a trade union, by a majority, to decide that the union shall amalgamate with some other trade union. The importance of these amalgamations cannot be overestimated. There are first the members of the trade union which is to be amalgamated, and the members of the trade union with which the amalgamation is made, and it is sometimes a bitter question with one trade union as to whether it should be absorbed by another and a bigger trade union. I do not suggest that trade unions are ever guilty of ill-feeling, but I might suggest that they may be sometimes angry with one another on such a subject as amalgamation. Apart from that point of view, amalgamation is a subject very important to a trade union, and when it takes place there should be a real desire on the part of the people proposed to be amalgamated to become amalgamated. The Amendment proposes that the resolution to amalgamate should be carried by a majority of not less than 20 per cent. or the people who voted. The second Amendment, which I will move later, provides that not less than 50 per cent. of the members of the trade unions shall take part in the ballot. I feel sure that the Committee will see that this is not at all an extravagant demand, for it is surely necessary that something more than a bare majority should be recorded where it is the exceedingly important question of amalgamation that has to be decided.
The Amendment moved by the hon. and learned Gentleman certainly does not err in the direction of an excessive majority when it proposes that it shall be 20 per cent. of the people who have actually voted. I wish to see how that will work out in conjunction with the second and consequential Amendment. I will assume there are two trade unions, each with a membership of 100,000. In the second Amendment each trade union must have not less than 50 per cent. of its members voting, and therefore there will be a total of 100,000 votes, and you must have 55,000 voting one way and 45,000 the other. That, I take it, is the correct interpretation of what is provided by these two Amendments combined. There was a very important Debate we had in 1911 and 1912 on the Trade Union (No. 2) Bill, which ultimately became the Trade Union Act of 1912. It dealt with a matter of less importance than this Bill, which is not confined to the period of the War, but which the Minister of Labour told us last night he expected to find more useful after the War than during the War period. We had a great deal of very learned and influential opinion in the House at that time on the matters dealt with in the Bill—they were of less importance than this general amalgamation—and it was then held that it was essential that the majority of members of the union should in some way express their decided view by vote. That, I believe, is the right principle. I would like to remind the Committee that last night the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour said that if trade unions had the right to vote by proxy, as railway companies or limited companies have, the difficulty would be easily overcome, and the difficulty referred to was the difficulty of getting a sufficiently large proportion of members of the union to vote on any question whatever.
I do not want to do more than to remind the Committee that the present Attorney-General, in 1911, in a very powerful speech on the Second Reading of the Trade Union (No. 2) Bill, gave the House instances of extraordinarily small minorities of members of most important trade unions, such as the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, who voted on questions that were regarded as of vital importance to them. The learned Attorney-General on that occasion said that if the provision then proposed—and it was exactly similar to this provision now submitted—was maintained in its present form it meant that an extremely small minority of members of the union might legalise and practically exact political contributions from all the members of the union, and, in this case, an extremely small minority of the members of the union would be able to carry a project of amalgamation which might stretch throughout all the trade unions of the country. There is only one thing more I want to say. The most important argument the right hon. Gentleman used in support of this Bill on the Second Reading was that in certain trades there may be as many as nine unions concerned in the interests of a single trade, and, therefore, when the Government, in the course of the War, desires to make any arrangements, and seeks to come to an agreement, all the details will have to be gone over again nine times. That is not what the Bill proposes. There is no question of limiting the power of amalgamation of the unions concerned to a particular trade; on the contrary, the Sub-Clause inserted to avoid any misunderstanding, states that it is to be understood that the Section of the Act of 1876 that is amended in this first Subsection which we are now discussing, applies to the amalgamation of trade unions whether registered or unregistered. It may mean the amalgamation of any and every union in the country, and when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London puts forward this Amendment, which has been moved by my hon. and learned Friend, I must say I am amazed at the moderation of the terms of that Amendment. It only desires that half the people directly concerned in the unions involved should take the trouble to vote on the question of amalgamation. Quite apart from public policy and public interest, I think one obstacle to the Government's dealing with all these knotty and thorny questions connected with trade unions is that it is by no means clear that members of unions at the present time always recognise the position of their leaders. It would have been very much better if we had adopted a simple principle that would ensure members of a trade union recognising the leaders of an amalgamated union, and that the majority of members of each and every union going to amalgamate should signify their desire for amalgamation by voting either by proxy or in person. I do not want to put any obstacle in the way of the members of trade unions, and I am glad to accept the suggestion thrown out by the hon. Gentleman of extending the vote by proxy. This Amendment has been moved before the one I have put upon the Paper, and my Amendment, I think, would have exactly met the case. Of course, this will be left to the Committee, and if the Committee accept the words now proposed by my hon. and learned Friend, it will rule out any possibility of moving my Amend- ment, which I think much more in the public interest. Be that as it may, I hope something will be done to ensure that some reasonable proportion of the members of the union will take the trouble to signify their desire for amalgamation before it is carried into effect.
I am very desirous of meeting the views of hon. Gentlemen in this particular measure. May I say that from time to time, when trade union Bills have been before this House, there has always been, if I may put it so, hostility to anything in the shape of reform. Personally, I would have no desire to have a vote for amalgamation carried by a simple majority, or by a very small proportion of the members voting. That is the reason why, in order to meet objections, I have agreed to accept the Amendment that the quorum voting must be 50 per cent. of the membership, and that out of that 50 per cent. there should be a majority of 20 per cent. of that number in favour of amalgamation. I had an opportunity of consulting a number of my colleagues, and they all agree that it would be most undesirable to have amalgamation carried on a small vote by a simple majority. I hope that the acceptance of this Amendment will go far towards meeting the hostility of Members generally, and that my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Peto) will not persevere with his Amendment, as I have anticipated to some extent his objections in the Amendments I am accepting. May I say that at the present moment, taking the great iron and steel trades as an example, there is a very great desire for amalgamation amongst the unions. As the law stands at present, it is practically impossible to have the votes of the present trade unions obtained. In many instances the men are working for a seven-day week, because of the national necessity, and you cannot get those men, when they have a spare hour, to go to a branch meeting to vote. The employers are just as anxious as the men that the various unions in that industry should amalgamate, because they believe that once peace comes there must be a great reorganisation of trades, and they believe that capital and labour, working in, as it were, two complete units, will be much more likely to come to agreements that will be in the interest of the trade generally, than if they have to deal with a matter of fifteen distinct trade unions. So that from that point of view I think it will be quite apparent that if it is not a war measure, it is an after the War measure arising from the War. I know that in other industries a similar feeling prevails. I hope, therefore, not only for the reasons I have advanced now, but for the reasons I gave on Second Reading as to the numerous arbitration cases which have to be heard because of these separate unions, with their distinct and separate jealousies and rivalries, as well as demarcation disputes which are a prolific source of trouble in the industrial world, that this particular measure will minimise, if it does not cause entirely to disappear many of those troubles.
I am very glad my right hon. Friend has accepted the Amendment. It seemed to me on hearing him introduce the Bill, that he was making a large departure in making a question of amalgamation of unions a matter of a simple majority, especially in these days during the War, when in the case of so many unions a large number of members are absent on military service. My right hon. Friend has indicated some of the difficulties which arise in connection with these amalgamations. Many of the unions exist to a large extent for the purpose of preserving the special privileges of the individual trade. It is not simply to protect their interests as against the employer, but also the interests of their craft as against the members of other crafts who may encroach on their special sphere. Obviously, if you were to have an amalgamation in which two unions who had been in that kind of competition in the past, carried by a simple majority, it might be regarded as a very serious thing for the members of one or other of those unions. Members might contend that by a simple majority they had been deprived of rights for the protection of which they had banded themselves together. The Amendment accepted, as I understand, is midway between the law as it at present stands and the Bill as originally introduced. The law now provides for a two-thirds majority of the members of the union, and the Bill provided for a bare majority. A majority of 20 per cent. of those voting, and providing that at least 50 per cent. must vote, is a perfectly reasonable compromise. I feel some doubt as to the necessity for the legislation personally. I believe that the trade union era in labour is passing away, and that you are going to meet with a new industrial organisation, so far as the workers are concerned. But that is no reason which an obsolete organisation should not have the benefit of a fair piece of legislation.
I do not think this Amendment is quite clear. The hon. and learned Gentleman proposes that 50 per cent. of the members must vote, and that a majority of 20 per cent. must approve. What does that mean? Does it mean 30 per cent. of the 50 per cent.?
A majority of 20 per cent. of the members voting.
That is still not clear. I suppose the right hon. Baronet means there must be a fifth more in favour of amalgamation than against it. As the Amendment at present stands it may possibly lead to litigation and trouble. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would indicate by figure in what way it works.
I am very glad the right hon. Gentleman has accepted the Amendment, providing that there must be a fairly large percentage in favour of amalgamation before it is accepted. I think 20 per cent. is a fair majority. I would suggest also the insertion of a Clause to make it compulsory upon the union wishing amalgamation to notify all members, and to supply them with a ballot paper returnable by post, or in some other way. Unless he does that he will find that he will not get 50 per cent. of the members to vote.
6.0 P.M.
As one who has taken a very great interest in this matter, I should like to suggest to the Minister in charge of the Bill that the simpler the operation of the Bill the better. I can quite understand men who are connected with skilled trades where there are certain unions to protect arguing from the point of view that has been argued from. There are, however, other unions where there is nothing of the kind existing, where the membership is of a more floating type, and where it is exceedingly difficult to get any very large proportion of members to attend the branch meetings to vote. Great trouble arises from legislation which imposes difficulties on trade unions. It has been pointed out by previous speakers into what chaos negotia- tions have been brought during the present War, when it is essential, or should be essential, that whatever difficulties arise should be settled as speedily as possible. Note the contrast between this country and the principal country which we are fighting. In Germany there are twenty-four unions. In this country there are between 1,100 and 1,200 unions. Only this last week I was speaking to an employer who runs a very large ironworks in this country. He told me that there were no less than seventeen trade unions involved in his work. He further informed me that an enormous proportion of his time, which ought to be spent in turning out the material essential for the successful carrying on of the War, was wasted in negotiations with the representatives of these different unions. The matter really is one not so much of interest to the trade unions, or even to the Members of this House who are opposed to trade unions. At the present juncture it is essential to the successful carrying on of the War that simplicity should rule in all these matters.
I would just like to say that those who are opposing the simplification of this process of amalgamation, and those who are making it difficult for the trade unions to come together, are imposing difficulties not so much upon the trade unions—for, after all, the present chaos does not punish trade unions—as certainly to punish the country tremendously and hinders it from carrying on the War to a successful issue. It is rather from a broad point of view that I am speaking at the moment; but I do wish very seriously to point out that the various proportions which are sought to be embodied in the Bill and the suggested conditions do not appear to lead to the presumption that the people who are concerned with the trade unions have sufficient common sense to enable them to mind their own business, or that they will carry out a ballot in such a way as will bring about the desired result.
I am not aware that I suggested that.
I was alluding to later speakers than the hon. and learned Gentleman. I do want to suggest to hon. Members that the restrictions imposed here, when they come to fruition, are simply ridiculous. There is a restriction, I think, in the Act of 1876, that a trade union shall not own more than an acre of land for its offices. Any trade union that has big offices and desires to give the people employed in those offices amenities such as will enable them to do their work in peaceful and healthful surroundings is prevented from doing so by an Act of Parliament. I suggest that these things all come home to roost. Difficulties imposed upon trade unions do not hit the trade unions. As a matter of fact the particular union with which I am connected can easily make 2,000 new members in a week and just as easily lose them. That, therefore, indicates that there are at any rate some unions that have a very large floating membership, and when you lay it down in an Act of Parliament that certain proportions of these people have to vote it simply makes it impossible for it to be done. I have been twelve years in this country endeavouring to bring about an amalgamation between some of the different labour unions. To-day it is admitted by all those unions that it is absolutely impossible to get a two-thirds majority; the result is that you have this chaos and all these different strikes. Look at the difficulty entailed upon the different officers of the different unions to keep their people at work at the present time. If any of these people desired they could easily have thousands, tens of thousands, and hundreds of thousands on strike just because you have all these different organisations in existence.
It does seem to me that if the reign of intelligence is to come about in this country, if we are to have reasonable and sensible conditions existing after this War, that the first thing to be done is to simplify the trade union problem and ease the difficulty of the employer who does desire to do the right, to facilitate settlements, and to cut out all this friction and difficulty which exists among all these thousands. There are between 1,100 and 1,200 trade unions. We ought to endeavour to get back to such a condition of affairs in this matter as exists in Germany, where they have only twenty-four unions. Surely sanity, reason, and common sense ought to reign along that line. If trade unions do wrong and do not have the majorities desired by the Amendments they will suffer. Besides, we ought to bear in mind that even when unions do amalgamate it is still left open for other unions to start. Supposing to-day two unions amalgamate, and there is a section in either one or the other, or in both, that have grievances, there is nothing in the laws of the country to prevent that section or sections starting another union if they wish to do so. It does not interfere with the liberty of the individual, who can start another union if he likes.
But such members lose the benefit of their contribution to the parent union?
The hon. Member talks with a certain amount of knowledge, but the amount, in my judgment, is microscopic, if I may say so without offence. I speak as one who has had at least thirty years' experience, and I would like to impress upon him that a very large percentage of trade unionists in this country have no such vested interest as he suggests. There are and have been unions of tens of thousands of members whose individual value in the union do not exceed even 1s. What vested interest can there be for one who has 1s. interest in a union? There are unions to-day consisting of hundreds of thousands of members—I should say considerably over 500,000, perhaps 750,000 —and the whole vested interest those members have in their union would not possibly exceed 10s. per member. I put forward these suggestions, not so much from the point of view of the union. I do not mind. If the difficulties are there, well, let them go on. But if we are going to have peace in the country after the War, an increase of productivity of our commercial concerns; if we are going to have employers on the one hand and Unions on the other endeavouring successfully to come together, you ought to simplify the whole problem. If you do not you are in for perpetuating all the friction, strife, difficulties, strikes, and lock-outs as before, and I would suggest that that is ridiculous. The House of Commons should at least give the trade unions a fair and square deal, simplify these matters, and so get on with the present business.
I agree with the hon. Member who has just sat down as to the desirability of simplifying the machinery of the trade unions. I should like at the same time to press upon the consideration of the hon. Member, and also to suggest to the hon. Member who spoke from the opposite bench, as to the desirability of full information, being given, it may be on a ballot paper, to the members as to what is being or about to be done, the desirability of that course. The bulk of the working men of this country at the present moment are working extremely hard. Their minds and their thoughts are given almost entirely to their work. I should be inclined to say that most of them are paying very little attention to any questions in regard to the management or government of their unions, or things of that sort. They are giving their attention to working hard for the benefit of their country, and the benefit of their brothers who are fighting for them across the sea. Under these circumstances we in this House of Commons ought in any question of importance to the unions, or any question of amalgamation of the unions—which may be of very great importance to them—to see that the fullest information is given. Where members wish it, before any definite and ultimate decision as to amalgamation is come to—where any alteration is made in the conditions under which the union has hitherto been managed and under which members have hitherto lived—before the actual act is taken it is quite clear that information should be available. The workmen, probably, will be perfectly satisfied with the management of their union by the officials. If they are given information as to what is being done, and given the opportunity of coming to a decision, that ought to meet the case. For this reason I support the suggestion from the opposite benches as to the ballot papers, which clearly and definitely should state what is proposed to be done.
Why is it proposed, may I ask, to apply to trade unions conditions in respect to settling their internal affairs that the Committee would not propose to apply to any other institution, not even excluding this House of Commons? This Bill is the outcome of the experience of great difficulties ranging over many years. I hope the Minister in charge of it will show no disposition to recede from the position which experience has clearly indicated should be taken up by any Labour Minister in charge of such a measure. I do not for a moment imply that the intention of hon. Gentlemen who has moved these Amendments is to do other than seek to safeguard the rights and interests of individual members of trade unions; but, speaking from the experience which we have in the administration of the internal affairs of the trade unions, I can assure him and hon. Members generally that the effect of the Amendments which have been proposed will not be to safeguard those interests, but only to increase the internal difficulties of administration. Any Member can be returned to this House without being sent by any percentage of the electorate. He comes here on the strength of a bare majority, it may be of only one. He comes here if only 10 per cent. of the electorate vote. Why is it proposed to apply to trade unions conditions and principles totally different from those which determine the much more important matter of re-election of a Member of this House of Commons? The experience of the last few years of those who have been charged with the administration of very large sums of State money in connection with Parts I. and II. of the Insurance Act convey their own lesson. Great sums have been disbursed in the relief of unemployment, sickness, and disability. Trade unions in regard to their work on its purely trade union side might have similar provisions enacted to those which exist in regard to their work in the approved society section. A bare majority is sufficient to determine very high and important points of administration with regard to its approved society. Why should not that same principle be admitted with regard to its purely trade union side?
I agree heartily with the conclusion of my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow with regard to the disservice which is being rendered to the nation by compelling trade unions to keep more apart than they are at present disposed to do. Much of the confusion and the misunderstanding which has led to very serious and regrettable conflict, and even stoppages in different parts of the country in the last week or two, arises from the cumbersome nature of trade union organisation, and the multiplicity of interests due to the separate existence of these societies. It is natural that in an industrial country like this there should be a deep-rooted sense of trade pride, and that that pride in its turn should produce separate trade unions; but changes have taken place in the last few years all tending to produce in the minds of workmen a greater sense of common interest, and, whilst they retain a sense of trade pride, they wish to come together more in the sense of merging their trade organisations, and the House would be doing a great national service tending towards industrial harmony if it simplified this, and raised no obstacles in the way of making it quite easy for these different unions to amalgamate. I speak from personal experience. For many years I have been engaged in the very difficult and practical side of trying to amalgamate trade unions, and I can assure the House that it is owing to the law, this very complicated internal network of trade union machinery, that we have failed in quite a number of instances to merge several trade organisations into one. That is a state of things which, so long as it remains, will mean greater difficulty in consultation, in placing responsibility and authority in the hands of men who will retain confidence, and who will acquire confidence when they speak and act for the different men whom they are endeavouring to represent. On many and many an occasion our endeavours have broken down because we have been required by very old-fashioned laws to do things which modern industrial conditions have made it almost impossible for us to do, and I would beg hon. Members not to put upon trade unions, in regard to their purely industrial affairs, conditions which they would not think of imposing upon the same organisations in regard to other matters.
I wish to make a few observations with reference to what fell from the hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness. He took exception to my knowledge of trade unions. Of course, I cannot profess to have the inside knowledge he has. There are many trade unions in this country in which the pecuniary interest of members is considerable, and it is precisely in respect of those unions that the difficulty of amalgamation is greatest.
It is not so.
I rather think a case has been made here by the Minister of Labour. He talked of the number of trades in connection with iron and steel, and there are other trades in connection with other idustries. I have some personal knowledge of the difficulties of amalgamation in the engineering trades, and so forth, and in each of the cases the difficulty has arisen, first of all, from the pecuniary interest of the members, and, secondly, the desire of the members to preserve the special sphere allotted to them in the industrial organisation. I think that more than a bare majority, especially under the conditions of war, is desirable in view of those facts. In the case of most unions many members are away at the War. You might have a proposal carried by a small majority of the members, yet the rights of men who have gone to the War would be dealt with by only a small proportion of the members, and, under the Bill as it is introduced, it might be decided by a bare majority. I think under these conditions, at any rate, there is a case for more than a bare majority. I agree with the hon. Member, of course, that a two-thirds majority of all the members is asking far too much. At the same time, I think the compromise which the Minister of Labour has accepted is a fair one, and one which will not only tend to increase the efficiency of the unions, but safeguard the rights of the minority. I myself am not so much a believer in the amalgamation of unions. I think the tendency to amalgamate has not altogether strengthened the trade union movement. You have had a greater concentration of power in the hands of the executive, which is one of the causes of the unrest at the present time. With such amalgamation you have less popular control on the part of members of the union all over the country. You have agreements made with the employers and with the Government as to which the ordinary members of the union are not consulted, and when they come to know the terms they find themselves prejudiced, and the tendency arises to oppose the union. That is precisely what has happened on the Tyne and has now extended to Lancashire, and will extend all over the country. It is in view of that movement that the trade union organisation as we now see it has got to be superseded by something better to promote industrial efficiency and industrial harmony.
With reference to the suggestion made by my hon. Friend the Member for Westhoughton (Mr. T. Wilson) that every member of the union should receive a ballot paper, no one knows better than he does that that is absolutely impossible.
I said if reasonably possible.
Take his own union, for example. Hundreds of men are ships' carpenters. In other directions it is impossible. Take the monthly journal of the various trade unions. There will be plenty of intimation of the fact that there is going to be a vote taken upon amalgamation. In addition to that, the workmen in the shops discuss the matter amongst themselves. As the hon. Member for North-West Lanarkshire (Mr. Pringle) said, the concession which I have made is a reasonable and fair concession. If you take as an example some of the war levies which have been put up, there is one society with 60,000 members which took a vote as to a small weekly levy. Only 9,000 out of the 60,000 voted. There was a substantial majority. The minority was very small, but 51,000 other men in the union never raised a single objection to paying the levy. In such a case why do not the other men vote? They will not take the trouble to go and vote because they do not care whether the levy goes on or not. There are a good many other instances of exactly the same thing, but, as I indicated at the very beginning, I should like to see 50 per cent. of the members vote, and I should like to see a decent majority. But, as my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow said, after all is said and done, trade unions are not going to amalgamate against the evident desire of their members. With reference to the question of having a fixed majority, I caused inquiry to be made, and was told that in connection with the Companies Act Parliament has insisted that memoranda of association cannot be altered except on a fixed vote and by a fixed majority, so that no special treatment is required to conserve the interests of those who may have a vested interest. With reference to the point that my hon. Friend the Member for the College Division of Glasgow (Mr. Watt) put, I take it in this way: If you take 15,000 as a unit, 9,000 would vote for and 6,000 would vote against, leaving a majority of 3,000, which is one-fifth of 15,000, and there you have the majority. I hope this little lesson in mathematics will satisfy my hon. Friend. I do not think there was any point raised to which I have omitted to reply, and I hope we shall now get on with the business.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (1), to add the words, "Provided that not less than 50 per cent. of the members of each and every such trade union vote at the ballot in question."
My hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General suggests some alteration in the wording of my hon. and learned Friend's Amendment as follows: "Provided that not less than 50 per cent. of the members of such trade union take part in such voting."
If the Solicitor-General says so, of course I accept it, and ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (1), to add the words, "Provided that not less than 50 per cent. of the members of such trade union take part in such voting."
I am not disposed to allow this Amendment to go through unchallenged, because it raises a principle that applies to other matters, and my objection mainly arises from the difficulties which I can foresee will occur in some particular cases. There are instances where twelve months' or six months' membership are required to qualify a man for the right of place and benefit in a trade union. There are occasions when a considerable accession of members will take place in one organisation, and does the hon. and learned Gentleman mean that if a very large number of members become suddenly attached to a trade union that they should have the right to determine such a very important question as amalgamation? Does he mean that the man who is admitted suddenly to one of these organisations shall have the same right of determining the future of the organisation as the man who has been in it for twenty years? The principle of the Amendment is not a good one.
I think it is quite obvious that the Mover of this Amendment in no way grasps the varieties of the membership of trade unions. I want to elaborate the point made by the hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Clynes). He has indicated that in some cases a very large number of members may be made in a given week. It may be that before they are in full benefit they would have to wait twelve months. Supposing a new union was to make 2,000 members a week. In fifty-two weeks that would amount to 104,000 members, but none of them would be entitled to take part in the serious business of the union until they had been members for a certain period. There is no period laid down by this Amendment, and the very moment they have paid their entrance fee and a week's contribution they can vote. Now I do not like to use strong language, but really all this is very exasperating to those of us who were trying to keep the trade union movement on an even keel, and who represent, as I do, a membership of at least 200,000 men, as there is in my union, who are not in the main very well educated, and who take a good bit of keeping in order. When Amendments of this kind are moved, and people outside get to know, I should like the Mover of this Amendment to hear their opinion.
Whatever the views of hon. Members may be on these matters, they must banish the idea that people do not read the Debates. Often they get a brief account in the newspapers, and probably in thousands of workshops this Debate will be talked over by tens of thousands of men, and they will say, "Here is another attempt to keep down the freedom of the men to conduct their own business in their own way." It is their own money, and why cannot the House of Commons give them some freedom to mind their own business. I object to 50 per cent. being put into this Bill, for it only adds and increases the difficulties put in the way of trade unions. There is not a man in this country who does not realise that when this War is over we are going to be faced with a tremendous problem, and it gives me a very considerable amount of worry to see how we are going to meet the situation, because you have 1,200 different unions in this country, whereas in Germany there are only twenty-four, and consequently Germany will be able to put her house in order in no time, while here we shall probably have the same old conflicts with 1,200 unions, the same old strikes, friction, and all the rest of it. The thing is impossible, and I appeal to the hon. and learned Member to withdraw his Amendment.
I wish the hon. Member who has just spoken, before criticising this proposal, had applied his mind to the Amendment. He did not hear my original speech, or he would never have made the speech which he has just made. When a man of his position talks that sort of thing upon an Amendment here no doubt the men in a workshop when they read that sort of speech get a very wrong idea of what the House of Commons is doing by this Amendment. The hon. Member raised a technical difficulty about members who have not been members for a year. Is he aware that at the present time those identical words I am proposing are in the Act of Parliament which governs this matter. The very words we are seeking to amend are, "by the consent of not less than two-thirds of the members of each and every such trade union." Whatever those words mean in the Act of 1876 they will mean in my Amendment. When the hon. Member conjures up the difficulty about a man being a member for a year or any such period, I would remind him that it is a difficulty which exists at the present time, and it has existed since 1876, and we have had no attempt made by trade unions to get over that difficulty or to put it right.
If that is the real point I have not the slightest objection to it being remedied, but I do not know even now if the hon. Gentleman opposite wishes those people to be included or excluded. If he wishes them excluded, such words as "any member qualified to vote" would be sufficient for my purpose. This Amendment is simply an alteration of the law which now requires two-thirds of the whole of the members of any such trade union, and it is far more favourable to amalgamation than the original words of 1876. The hon. Member thinks this Amendment contains a sort of hardship upon trade unions, but the Minister for Labour pointed out that this is dealing with the matter in exactly the same way as other corporations and companies are dealt with. A bare majority of the members of a company at one meeting cannot change the whole Articles of Association and allow the company to be amalgamated with another company. [An HON. MEMBER: "There is no analogy between those cases."] Yes, there is the closest possible analogy between a limited company and a trade union which has this power. There are vested interests in each case. I know that in some cases the vested interest is very small, but in others it is very large. There are no corporations, and very few clubs in which the rules can be altered by a bare majority at a chance meeting. Even clubs which have been established for games would never allow their constitution to be altered by a bare majority.
There is no need for the hon. Member to be angry with me because we do not see exactly eye to eye with him, and the difference between us is not very great. The amalgamation of trade unions is not a question for outside people, and there are many trade unions who do not want to be amalgamated. Might I give a hypothetical case? In some particular trade where there is one big union and some other small unions, has the hon. Member never experienced how the small union is ready to fight for its separate existence. I feel sure he has. Very often the members of a small trade union fight very bitterly for their existence. They fight very strongly for their existence. Very often men join a particular trade union for a particular trade object, and would it be right that the separate existence of the smaller trade union should be put an end to by some chance majority taken at a chance meeting? I think the hon. Member in his calmer moments will be in favour of this proposal. I will not now go into the bitter or thorny points which he raised in his speech, because nobody realises more than I do the vast importance of trade union work, but surely it is out of place on an administrative Amendment of this kind to bring in such questions when it is a question whether you should not have some sort of protection for a small trade union amalgamating with a large trade union where a chance majority gives power to put an end to that trade union and amalgamate it to another.
Surely this is a very simple legal point. I hope the Government will consider this question between now and the Report stage. I think we are in the position of discussing administrative details in a somewhat heated manner. It may be a case where you are amalgamating two different trade unions in one industry. As the Bill stands at present you are dealing not only with trade unions in one industry because it goes further than that and deals with trade unions which may be connected with different industries altogether. I shall press my Amendment in its present form, and I hope the hon. Member opposite who seemed annoyed with me for putting this forward will look at it from a purely business point of view, and, if he does, I think he will support my proposal. I agree that it deals with a matter of some importance, but it certainly has not the importance which the hon. Member opposite has attached to it.
I gather from what the hon. and learned Member says that he is putting in the qualifying words to make it plain that it is 50 per cent. of the real membership voting. Probably he would accept the words, "entitled by the regulations to vote." That would prevent anyone who was not entitled to vote being counted in the 50 per cent.
I have no objection, if it will bring peace on the troubled waters, but I should like, if possible, for it to be done on Report. I am not very familiar with the exact drafting of the words, but I should have thought the words "full members" would have probably met the point.
If the additional words meet with the approval of the hon. Member for Barrow (Mr. Duncan), I have no objection to them. The union to which I belong is a great deal more democratic than he is. In my union as soon as a man is a member he is entitled to vote on every question put before the society. Some provision should be put in the Bill to secure a vote of a certain percentage of the members. I can imagine two societies desiring to amalgamate, one of which provides superannuation benefits for its members and the other of which does not. The society which does provide superannuation benefits should certainly have a fairly large majority vote in favour of amalgamation. That is only fair. Whilst I desire to see the number of trade unions considerably reduced, we must not neglect to protect the interests of the older members who have built up the societies. I therefore welcome the acceptance of this Amendment by the Minister of Labour.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment made: In Sub-section (1), at the end, add the words, "Provided that not less than 50 per cent. of the members of such trade union, entitled by their rules to vote, take part in such voting."
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 2.—(Short Title.)
This Act may be cited as the Trade Union (Amalgamation) Act, 1917, and the Trade Union Acts, 1871 to 1913, and this Act may be cited together as the Trade Union Acts, 1871 to 1917.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
There are certain questions which ought to be dealt with, and there is some difficulty in getting Amendments in. I suppose the Government will not be taking the Report stage to-night?
I hope my hon. and learned Friend will let me get the Report stage. If there is any point to which he objects, I will be prepared to meet him in a friendly way, and, if necessary, get the alteration made in another place.
We had an assurance that the business on the Paper down to the Finance Bill was going to be taken to-day, and, as there is no mention except of the Committee stage of this Bill, we surely ought to take the business in proper rotation. I have followed the whole Debate, listening to the speeches of the Minister of Labour and of the hon. Members opposite, and the point of great importance brought out by those speakers is that they desire to simplify the representation of the trade unions of all the different trades and industries of the country. It ought to be looked into very carefully to see that the Bill does not do a great deal more than the Minister in charge of it desires to do, and on this ground I oppose the Report stage following immediately upon the Committee stage, as though this were a trifling matter which could be put through the House anyhow, whether Members attend or not.
I am not in favour of taking two or three stages of the same Bill on one day, but I think in this case we ought to give way. The Government has met us to a considerable extent, and, if they attach importance to the taking of the Report stage now, I think it would be wise on the part of the Committee to meet them. I may express the hope that if no objection is taken it will not be done very often.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill, as amended, considered.
CLAUSE 1 (Amalgamation of Unions) as amended
I beg to move, after the word "unions" ["any two or more trade unions"], to insert the words "in any industry."
On Second Reading the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill said that when an arbitration case in connection with the war bonus relating, for example, to nine different unions, all catering for the same class of workmen, came up, the Committee had to listen, one after the other, to nine cases of exactly the same character with the same governing circumstances applying to them all. That is the most patent argument that could possibly be used. The same kind of argument has been used in every speech, that it is essential for the prosecution of the War, in dealing with these industrial questions, and the hon. Member for Barrow (Mr. Duncan) said it would be a great advantage after the War, that we should have simplification and diminution in the total number of trade unions in the country, of which I think there are over 1,000. That is not what the Bill does. The hon. Member for Barrow said that in Germany they only had twenty-four trade unions. Under this Bill we might only have one. There is nothing to prevent the omnibus drivers uniting with the transport workers and the firemen and seamen as well, if they desire to do so. We have heard the same arguments from various quarters that what is really desired is to simplify the representation of the members engaged in an industry so that they shall be able to amalgamate in one union, or in a less number of unions, than at the present time. If that is the main argument, I cannot see the slightest reason for passing a Bill enabling all the trade unions to amalgamate in one general trade union for every trade in the country. If that is the desire, I think the House and the country should understand exactly what they are doing under the guise of a war emergency measure. It seems to me, by the inclusion of the words which are now moved, that we get a Bill which will do what the Minister in charge of it says he wants to do. It would be a great mistake to pass a measure of a vastly wider scope and with much greater potential consequences than anything that has been laid before the House.
I beg to second the Amendment.
7.0 P.M.
It is difficult, I quite agree, for those of us who have had any- thing like a lengthy experience in the trade union movement to pass it on to other people. The Amendment proposes that the action of the Bill shall be confined to unions in a given industry. Let me just give the illustration of the union with which I am connected. There are, roughly, between 500 and 1,000 different avocations covered by that union. One has only to state that fact to show how preposterous it is to suggest in any Act of Parliament that there should be any limitation in these matters at all. This country has reached a pitch in its industry and development when we have an enormous number of industries, many of them of a very small character. It is obvious you cannot have a union for every one of these tiny industries, and the result is that in the trade union movement there are a large number of these very small industries covered by one union. Let me indicate what is taking place on the Continent. There you have a union which practically covers the whole of the metal trade—that is to say, engineers, blacksmiths, plumbers, shipbuilders, and practically all the men working in any industry in which iron or steel is employed are gathered together in one union. The result is that when they come to negotiate, instead of having sixteen or seventeen deputations to represent turners, fitters, brass-workers, iron-smiths, boiler-makers, and all the rest, one man represents the lot. If you want simplification of difficulties in this country I suggest that the Amendment is out of place, because it would only complicate matters and make them worse while in no way helping the object which the House desires to achieve. It would create a futile position inside the trade union movement, because of the very large number of small industries existing in this country.
I do not see that the hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Peto) is going to achieve any particular purpose by the words he proposes to insert, because it would not prevent the unions in various industries from federating. There would be a real difficulty, if the words were accepted, with respect to unions such as that represented by the hon. Member for Barrow (Mr. Duncan). In some unions it would make no difference, but in unions such as that represented by the hon. Member for Barrow it would cause real difficulty. I therefore hope the Amendment will not be passed.
The object of the Amendment is clear. It is to prevent too easy an amalgamation of trade unions which are not in the same industry at all; for example, unions, say, of sugar boilers and omnibus drivers. Whether the words carry out the object of my hon. Friend I am not in a position to say, but one would rather that some sort of Amendment might be devised by the Government to meet the particular difficulty with which my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Peto) seeks to deal. The hon. Member for Barrow (Mr. C. Duncan) said that his particular union would be affected by it. I understood him to say that all the people who worked in metal might form a particular trade union. They would all be in one industry. Of course, it might affect a large number of different classes of workers, such as railway men and blacksmiths, in whose trades metal is useful. The object is not to deal with trade unions which might be included in one industry, such as the metal industry, but to deal with industries which are in no way cognate. The hon. Member, no doubt, attaches importance to restrictions of any kind being put upon the power to amalgamate. The speech made in the Committee stage by the hon. Member for North-West Lanark (Mr. Pringle) must have satisfied the Government that the matter is not one of mere Departmental administration. There are very important issues which were not touched upon by the hon. Member for Barrow. He speaks merely from the point of view of the trade union he represents, but very much larger questions arise when you come to the question of federating trade unions which can be done by a process of amalgamation. I hope that the Government will consider the matter before the Bill comes before another place, so that if they cannot accept the words proposed, the Bill should be restricted to trade unions, such as those indicated by the hon. Member for Barrow of men working in the same industry or in the same line of work.
Amendment negatived.
Motion made, and Question, "That the Bill be now read the third time," put, and agreed to.
Bill read the third time, and passed.
Military Service (Conventions With Allied States) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "Thatthe Bill be now read a second time."
This Bill has been introduced with a view to enabling His Majesty in Council to carry into effect Conventions which may be made with a foreign country, Allied, or otherwise acting in co-operation with His Majesty in the present War, imposing a mutual liability to military service on British subjects resident in the contracting country and those resident in Great Britain. For some time past the large number of alien male subjects of military age who are resident in this country and who are not at present undertaking any form of military service, although belonging to countries which are allied to this country in the present War, has been a source of considerable dissatisfaction to their British neighbours. This dissatisfaction has become particularly acute in the East End of London, where the friendly aliens are largely congregated and where, in many cases, it has been alleged, with some truth, that when a British subject of military age has been called up for military service and has had to close or dispose of his business, the alien has immediately stepped in and is now taking advantage of the absence on military service of his British neighbour and competitor in order to consolidate and strengthen his own position.
That is one reason for this Bill, but there is another aspect of the case. All these aliens of military age who claim nationality with our Allies and who are residing in this country are escaping the obligations of military service which would have been theirs had they been resident in their own countries, and they are, therefore, weakening the man-power of their own country. The Russians, for example—I think I am right in saying this —constitute the largest number of subjects of an Allied State resident in this country and escaping military service, and it is now estimated that there are in this country some 30,000 Russians of military age, the majority of them being resident in the East End of London, with other large colonies in Manchester, Leeds and Glasgow. In August, 1916, the Rus- sians resident in Great Britain were given the opportunity of attesting for service in the British Army, either by direct enlistment or by attestation, and they were promised, I think in September, 1916, the same rights as to pay, separation allowances and pensions as the British soldier. Not only that, they were to have the same rights as to appeals to tribunals as British subjects. Notwithstanding all this, I am informed that the number who actually did attest or enlist was very inconsiderable. It is now suggested that Russian subjects who are resident in Great Britain should be given the option of either serving in the British Army or returning to Russia.
Not under this Bill, I believe?
No; this is a Bill dealing with Conventions. I am coming to that point. It was suggested that the option should be given to Russians of serving in the British Army or of returning to Russia in order to fulfil their military obligations in Russia, and that similar considerations should apply to British subjects who are resident in Russia and whose presence in Russia is not essential to the commercial interests of the Allies and of this country. I understand that the Russian Provisional Government has agreed to this general principle, though the details are still a matter of negotiation. The effect of this Bill is to enable His Majesty, by Order in Council signifying that he has made a Convention with a foreign country, Allied or otherwise, acting in co-operation with His Majesty in the present War, which imposes a mutual liability to military service on British subjects in that country and on subjects of the contracting country in the United Kingdom, to apply the provisions of the Military Service Acts, 1916 and 1917, to the subjects of the contracting country in the same manner as British subjects. If hon. Members have got the Bill, they will see that the effect of Clause 1 is to make liable to military service British subjects who are resident in the contracting country and subjects of the contracting country who are resident in the United Kingdom. But although the Bill extends to the United Kingdom, it does not result in making liable to military service subjects of the contracting country who are resident in any part of the United Kingdom in which the provisions of the Military Service Acts, 1916 and 1917, do not apply.
Not in any part of the British Empire?
Not in Ireland, because the Military Service Acts do not apply in Ireland. Sub-section (1) of Clause 2 provides that the Military Service Acts, 1916 and 1917, shall apply with certain modifications to the subjects of the contracting country resident in Great Britain in the same manner as British subjects, and they will have the same rights of application to a tribunal as British subjects have. Sub-section (1) (a) fixes the appointed date for subjects of the contracting country who are brought within the operation of the Military Service Acts, 1916 and 1917, as thirty days after the Order in Council applying the Act. Sub-section (1) (b) deals with the exceptions to the Act. It provides for the exceptions to the Military Service Acts, 1916–1917, these exceptions being confined to persons who hold a certificate of exemption granted under the Military Service Acts or by the Ambassador or a duly authorised public minister of the contracting country in the United Kingdom. Unless a subject of the contracting country is in possession of a certificate of exemption he is liable to military service, and, primâ facie, it would appear that a man in Holy Orders or a minister of religion is placed in a less favourable position than he would have been had he been a natural born British subject, but it must be remembered that the Bill places no restriction upon the issue of certificates of exemption by the Ambassador or a duly authorised public minister of the contracting country, and therefore it follows that the issue of these certificates would be made by the Ambassador or the minister in this country, having regard to the exceptions which are made so far as military service is concerned in his own country.
Sub-section (1) (c) refers to British subjects arriving in Great Britain from a contracting country. They are assumed, the moment they arrive in this country, to be ordinarily resident in this country, unless the person so arriving shows that the part of His Majesty's Dominions in which he last resided was some part other than Great Britain. This provision protects Colonials and other British subjects who would not have been liable to military ser- vice under the Military Service Acts if they had not been resident in the contracting country. With regard to British subjects returning from the contracting country who are deemed to be ordinarily resident in Great Britain as from the date of their arrival, it may be said that they are in a worse position than British subjects returning from neutral or other countries, but it must be remembered that the object of entering into conventions with Allied States is to obtain the man power which is urgently required by the Allied Powers. Moreover, these persons have the rights of any subject residing normally in this country. They can appeal to the tribunals during the thirty days that they have before they are transferred to the Reserve. The only other point I should like to deal with is contained in Sub-section (2). We are repealing Section 95 of the Army Act, which provides that
"The number of aliens serving together in any one corps of the Regular Forces shall not exceed the proportion of one alien to every fifty British subjects."
We are altering that position and we are making it quite clear that we can have as many aliens in the British Army as we like. I think I have covered all the points in the Bill, and I hope the House will give it a Second Reading.
I beg to move, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."
I think it very important that the House should examine not only the actual proposals contained in the Bill but the previous history of this question in this House and in this country. The late Home Secretary had very special responsibility in this connection. He proposed to deal with the question in a departmental way, without coming to the House for legislation, and the proposal that he roughly made was that aliens, particularly Russians, in this country should be given the option either of enlisting in the British Army or of returning to their own country, and there was very strong and widespread agitation amongst the aliens in this country against that proposal. We were ultimately promised that before proceeding further the matter would be reconsidered and, if necessary, legislation would be introduced. I presume this Bill is the result of that reconsideration. This is chiefly a problem of Russians in this country I have lived among the Russian Jews in Whitechapel, and I know many of them personally. Before the War broke out we used to say with pride, I think with just pride, that we had always given a most hospitable welcome to these aliens who came to us from Russia and from other countries. They came in many cases because they were dissatisfied with their own system of government. They came to escape the militarist system, in which they did not believe. They frequently came because they were oppressed or because they were treated with great injustice in their own country, and it was pointed out that to send them back to their own country, when they were in many cases political refugees, was to send them back to a very hard fate. On the other hand, it was unjust to ask them to fight for a country of which they were not citizens, and it was pointed out that the solution of the difficulty, if you proposed to withdraw the right of asylum, was to allow these aliens to go to some other neutral country instead of sending them to the fate that would await them in the country from which many of them were refugees; and I think there would be a very considerable agreement that that is their elementary right—to choose the country to which they elected to return. This Bill does not meet any of the difficulties that arose in connection with the controversy when it was raised in the House and the country. In one respect it makes the position even worse, because the Bill says that these aliens shall not even have the option of going either to a neutral or to any other country, but that they shall automatically become subject to liability to service in this country.
No, to service with the British Army or to return to their own country.
That alternative is not in the Bill, and I should very much like to know what my hon. Friend means by the interruption. I do not ask in a controversial sense, because in moving the Second Reading we said the suggestion had now been made that the option should be given to these aliens either to join the British Army or to fight for their country; but that option is not in the Bill, and I want to know by whom the suggestion is made, and what steps are being taken to put it in the Bill.
My hon. Friend went on to say that the Provisional Government in Russia had agreed, not, I understand, to the proposal in this Bill, but to a proposal that is not in the Bill, that they might go back to Russia if they preferred to do so. If that is the proposal that the Provisional Government in Russia has agreed to, surely it should be embodied in the Bill! This Bill is obviously the arrangement made with the late Government in Russia. It is the result of negotiations which took place before the revolution. The Government which has succeeded the revolution has agreed to something which I suggest is wholly different. Therefore a Bill should be submitted which contains the new arrangement. Instead of that we are asked to give a Second Reading to a Bill which is not the Bill assented to by the Provisional Government in Russia. I speak tentatively, but this is how I understand the position, and I have been guided by my hon. Friend's statement.
There are other serious objections to the Bill, because as it is worded it provides that if certain conventions are entered into with other countries His Majesty in Council may make an Order in Council making the Bill operative. It would be much better that if and when the military conventions are made with other countries we should then have a Bill brought in telling us what those military conventions are, but we are asked to give a Second Reading to a Bill which is not based upon any definite convention with other Governments, but which says that, if certain conventions which are not specified are entered into, His Majesty in Council may issue Orders in Council making this Bill operative, and while that is the basis of the machinery of the Bill we are told by my hon. Friend that the Provisional Government in Russia has agreed to something which I suggest is essentially different and they have not agreed to the automatic conscription of their subjects into the British Army, and there is nothing in the Bill which gives the aliens in the country the right to claim, if they wish it, to serve in their own Army.
Yes, there is.
I will give way gladly if my hon. Friend will show me where. As my hon. Friend is not able to show me where I am wrong, I must assume that my reading of the Bill is correct and it is a reading which is shared by many others. I shall listen with very much interest to see whether I have done in- justice to my hon. Friend's argument. There is this further extraordinary feature with regard to the machinery of the Bill, that the aliens who are to become conscripts in the British Army under this Bill are not given the same measure of protection that British subjects are given. They are not given the full protection of the Military Service Acts of 1916. Clergymen and ministers of religion are exempt from service in this country, but that exemption does not hold good according to this Bill in the case of these aliens. The Jewish Rabbis in the East-End of London and other parts of Great Britain will, under the provisions of this Bill, become automatically conscripts in the British Army.
There are the tribunals.
A clergyman or minister of religion is not subject to the provisions of the Military Service Acts in this country, and he does not have to go before a tribunal. He is one of the excepted classes. The equivalent profession amongst aliens will not be excepted from the provisions of this Bill. The Jewish Rabbis in this country will find themselves automatically conscripts or liable to service under the Bill as it stands.
Not if they get an exemption from the Ambassador or Minister of the State to which they belong.
The Under-Secretary for War states perfectly truly that if they get an exemption from their own Government they will not be so subject. That is obvious, but are they going to get that exemption? Should we allow it to be a matter of doubt? Why not make the machinery of the Bill provide that they shall have the same protection as British citizens? If you are going to treat them as citizens, by making them liable to service in the British Army, surely you should give them the benefit of these exceptions which were made in the case of our own citizens in connection with the Military Service Acts. This is a very grave blemish upon the Bill, and we ought to take note of it now, because it will cause considerable friction, and I think very considerable trouble in the future. It is far better for us to remove this potential source of trouble now than to deliberately ignore it. I hope that the matter will receive the most careful consideration. I should have thought, in view of what the Under-Secretary for War stated in moving the Second Reading of the Bill, the proper course would be, if a Bill has to come at all, to submit a Bill to carry out the arrangement arrived at with the Provisional Government of Russia, and not to present the House with a Bill which was agreed to by the old Government of Russia, the Czar's Government.
The hon. Member is mistaken. The Bill was not agreed to by the Czar's Government.
Has it been agreed to by any Government?
It has. It has been agreed to by the Provisional Government of Russia.
That is a different statement from that the hon. Gentleman made in moving the Second Reading.
It is not.
Let us understand this matter.
Let me make it quite clear, because I want to put my hon. Friend right. What I said was that the terms of this Bill were agreed to, so far as Russian subjects in this country were concerned, by the Provisional Government of Russia, but that the details are not yet complete.
The hon. Member went on further to say that the proposal they had agreed to was that Russian subjects in this country should have the option of returning to Russia and fighting in the Russian army. That arrangement is not in this Bill. I have invited the Under-Secretary for War to show me where I am wrong in that respect, but he has not been able to do so. Obviously, it is not in this Bill. If that is the arrangement that the Provisional Government of Russia has agreed to, it should be embodied in this Bill before it gets a Second Reading. I think we are in danger of doing very great injustice to these aliens. I realise the prejudice that exists on this question throughout the country, but I do not think we get rid of prejudice and passion by yielding to it. I think we rather get rid of it by resisting it. I think this Bill will add to that prejudice and add to our difficulties generally, and for these and the other reasons I have stated I beg to move the rejection of the Bill.
I beg to second the Amendment.
We cannot shut our eyes to the fact that there is very strong feeling, particularly among English working people, against the aliens in the East End of London. At the same time I do think we ought to be very careful that we do not commit an injustice. I object to this Bill because it is not what it purports to be. The Under-Secretary for War told us that the Russian Provisional Government had approved of this Bill. But this Bill does not contain—and he will be the first to admit it—the terms of the Convention as they will eventually be decided upon, and I submit that this House, before it passes a Bill of this nature, ought to know the exact terms under which these men are going to be brought into service. It seems to me to be altogether wrong to pass a Bill in general terms without knowing exactly what is the burden that you are going to put upon these unfortunate people. I agree with my hon. Friend (Mr. Whitehouse) that if a Bill were brought in specifically stating that it had been brought in by agreement with the Russian Government under which an option was to be given either to serve in the British Army or to return to their own country, or leave the country, then I do not think anybody would have anything to say against it. But that is not in this Bill, and until we do know a little more definitely the terms of the Convention which has been agreed upon with the Russian Provisional Government I think we ought to hesitate very much before we proceed to pass this Bill. It is a Bill which is simply legislation by reference. You are going to give the Government power to issue an Order-in-Council, varying in terms, I suppose, according to the different nationality of the persons concerned. You have not got the Convention before you, or any Convention before you, or any Convention upon which you are proposing to act, and until you have these Conventions before you you have no right to go forward and to ask for general legislation in this way.
I think the Government are fully justified and very well advised in bringing before the House a Bill of this character, and I cannot ex- press myself as in any way in agreement with the main criticism of this Bill laid down by my hon. Friends who moved its rejection. The feeling in the East End of London and elsewhere against aliens who refuse in any way to assist the country in its hour of extreme need is not, as my hon. Friend (Mr. Whitehouse) called it, prejudice. It is a strong and a most legitimate feeling. Here are a large number, some tens of thousands, of able-bodied men, the vast majority of whom have lived for years, and many of whom have lived nearly all their lives in this country, most of whom have in greater or lesser degree prospered here, and at the present time are enjoying the great advantage of seeing their competitors in trade taken into the British Army, or in other ways required to do national service. They are able, therefore, to reap profits which they have never before ventured to anticipate. These people show no willingness to share in the burden of defending the country which has most generously and hospitably given them a home, and with which they have bound up their fortunes. It is true that they are guests in the house of Britain, but after all, when a house is on fire even the guests may be required to do their share to put out the conflagration.
The question was dealt with, as my hon. Friend said, by the late Government. The right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel) frequently says, whenever this matter is raised, that it ought to have been settled long ago; it ought to have been settled two years ago. The question did not arise at all until after compulsory service for the native British population was established. You obviously could not require the foreigner to serve in your Army before you required your own people to do so, consequently it was not until last March that the question became an actual one. Soon after that date I expressed my views, speaking on behalf of the Government as Home Secretary, that the men so situated ought either to serve with the Army here or else go back to Russia, or to any other country to which they belonged. That rule had been enforced by the late Government from the beginning of the War in regard to the French, the Belgians, and the Serbians. That is to say, that when they were called up by either France, Belgium, or Serbia the Government of this country sent them home at the request of their own Government. They were not given the option of serving in our Army, but they were sent back by powers of expulsion vested in the hands of the Executive here. When this proposal was made by me in the early summer of last year it met with violent opposition on the part of these aliens, and as a great majority of them resolutely announced that they would not serve in the British Army, and as there were great political and moral difficulties in sending considerable numbers of them back to Russia, it was necessary for the Government to reconsider the matter. We proposed, in the first instance, that they should be given the opportunity of voluntary enlistment, as was done in the case of British subjects. I was assured by a committee which I believe was representative of these East End aliens, and by persons interested in them, that if they were given that opportunity they would embrace it and come forward. The opportunity was given, and every means of propaganda was adopted in order to make it known to them. Not only were the conditions such as the Under-Secretary for War has stated, but, in addition to that, the Government offered them a very generous measure of naturalisation as British subjects, without fee, if they conformed to the statutory conditions of naturalisation, and if any of them served in the British Army and wished to become British subjects. However, I very much regret to say that that propaganda was a failure, and that very few of them showed any readiness to share in the burdens and dangers of military service. As soon as that appeared to be the case, last September, the late Government considered the matter again, and the Cabinet decided that the matter could not be left as it then stood, and that the only practical course was to apply to these men the Military Service Act. But to that there was one obstacle, namely, that there was a treaty of long standing with Russia to the effect that neither country would conscript the nationals of the other country living within its dominions, and therefore it was necessary to get the agreement of the Russian Government to the abrogation in this particular case of that treaty. We entered into immediate negotiations with the Russian Government, but the delay was very prolonged. We could get no specific reply, and the late Government left office, the matter being in the position that, although we here had decided in favour of that principle, we could get no reply, in spite of repeated reminders, from the Russian Government, and therefore we were not able to proceed in this House. Consequently, we had to bear the obloquy of "Wait and see," and all the other accusations which were raised against the late Government on account of a delay not in the smallest degree the fault of our administration. Now the present Government has secured from Russia, after a period of more than six months, their assent to the principle of this policy, and the Bill has been introduced.
With respect to the Bill, I should like to put three points to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for War. The first is that, as was stated by the hon. Members below the Gangway, the Bill, of course, does not in terms offer the option of return to Russia. Legislation is not needed for that. That is a matter which can be dealt with, of course, by administration. I think we ought to hear from the Government before the Bill passes its Second Reading whether, in fact, they do intend and undertake to the House that these men shall be offered the free alternative of return to their own homes, because, of course, no one can leave this country without a permit from the Government, and, as we know, the means of transit are very difficult. If a man expresses his willingness to return to Russia, is he to be allowed to go back there? Do the Government give that undertaking? When the present Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr Bonar Law) announced to the House some weeks ago the course the Government proposed to take, he then stated that that alternative would be open for these men. The second point with regard to which I wish to ask my hon. Friend a question is this: As I have said, when we invited these men voluntarily to attest we offered immediate naturalisation without fee to all those who wished to become British subjects and who conformed to the statutory conditions. If a man is to be required to shed his blood for this country, at all events he is good enough to become a citizen of this country, and I should like to ask whether that offer still holds, and whether if this Bill is passed that facility for naturalisation will be granted, as was then proposed? The third point relates to the Matter to which again my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Lanark (Mr. Whitehouse) has referred—the position of ministers of religion. I do not quite understand why in drafting this Bill a distinction should be made with respect to ministers of religion as against all those who are subject to our existing Military Service Acts. They are statutorily exempt. They have not to appeal to any tribunal; they can appeal to the Courts of law, if necessary, to secure exemption. I can quite see that it leads to simplification in drafting to sweep away altogether the exceptions, as distinct from the exemptions, under the Military Service Acts, but I do not think there is sufficient reason for depriving these men of the exception to which they would be entitled if they were British subjects. It is rather a strong step to take to treat the foreigner as regard military service as you treat the Englishman, but it is not legitimate to treat the foreigner worse than you treat the Englishman, and I suggest that my hon. Friend should consider whether on the Committee stage a few words could not be inserted, as could easily be done, in order to restore to these men in this particular the same rights of exception as they would enjoy if they were British citizens.
I really think that the Mover and Seconder of the rejection of this Bill need not be under an apprehension on one point, namely, as to whether the Government are trying to get a Bill through Parliament which is hiding something which the House should know, because it is quite clear that this Bill would not become an operative Act unless an Order in Council is made, and the Order in Council will not and cannot be made until the Russian Provisional Government, or other foreign Government, has assented not merely in principle but in detail to the proposal. It is therefore quite clear that it cannot he operative until the Government of the Fatherland of these particular aliens has so assented. The point I rose to deal with was not that, but was one which arises out of Sub-section (2) of Clause 2. The Under-Secretary of State for War, in his opening statement, said that no doubt the majority of persons affected by this Bill will be Russians, Poles and Jews in the East End of London and our big cities, and that is almost certainly the case. He said there were some 30,000 of them. I picture to myself the alternatives which the War Office have before them in relation to this Act. They have before them two alternatives, either to draft these 30,000 aliens into different British regiments and try to assimilate these people, large numbers of whom do not speak English but only Yiddish or Polish, or they have the alternative of forming special battalions or regiments of these aliens.
I do wish the hon. Gentleman to consider most favourably and to submit to the War Office authorities the idea that if these aliens are to be brought into the service of this country they should, as far as possible, be formed into national battalions of their own. I know the question is raised that there are difficulties in officering such battalions. I do not think so. I think you will find already in the British Army officers of Polish nationality who have been naturalised British subjects, and certainly you will find Jewish officers who have already had military training and who will enable these men to show a far better morale and to be of far greater use to this country in this War if led by officers of their own race and nationality, than if scattered about among the. ordinary Anglo-Saxon, or the ordinary Celt, like myself. I feel perfectly certain that it would be very desirable to endeavour to imitate as far as possible the organisation the principle of which you have already acknowledged in accepting the Zion Mule Corps. Anyone who has read Mr. Patterson's book, for instance, or has come across people who have served in the Zion Mule Corps, and have seen the work done by the Palestinian Jews and others in this War will feel quite confident that you will be able to make this material in the East End of greater assistance if you can appeal to the national spirit of these people. There is no doubt that both as regards Poles and Jews, as well as Russians, we should consider this national feeling, and as far as possible do our utmost to meet it.
I agree with what the last hon. and gallant Gentleman has said with regard to the officering of these men if this Bill is to become operative. I rise for the purpose not so much of discussing the principle of this Bill, but of joining with the hon. Member who moved this rejection with regard to the exception he took to the procedure of the Government in this respect. The House perfectly well understands that, so far as this Bill is to have any effect, it is mainly, if not altogether, with regard to the Russians in this country. That being so, I agree with the hon. Member who moved the rejection of this Bill (Mr. Whitehouse), that it would have been far better for the Government to wait until they had concluded their convention with Russia, and brought that down for ratification by the House of Commons. I will show in a minute what I believe to be the very wide door the Government leaves open by the introduction of a Bill on these lines. There is no word about Russia in this Bill, or about any of the other countries allied to this country in this War. This Bill, as I will proceed to show in a few minutes, so far as my reading of it goes, leaves it open for the Government to conclude conventions with all the countries that are or may be allied with this country in the present War on the lines of this Bill. I do not think the Government have realised what the effect of that may be.
8.0 P.M.
Before I come to the consideration of that, I want to ask the hon. Member who represents the War Office for an assurance in connection with the use of the words "United Kingdom" in Clause 1. That use of the words "United Kingdom" makes it clear that Russian subjects who may be resident in any part of Ireland are to be brought under the operation of this Bill. They are to be liable to military service if a convention is concluded with Russia. I say nothing whatever about the wisdom or the principle of that, but I would ask the hon. Gentleman in charge of this Bill how that is going to be put into operation. The Military Service Acts do not apply to Ireland at all. There is no machinery in connection with the Military Service Acts in Ireland, and if you leave in the words "United Kingdom" how do you propose to get at those Russian subjects either in Belfast, Cork, Dublin, or elsewhere? Are the police to be put on their track? Are you going to set up tribunals in Dublin, or in Cork, or elsewhere to deal with these cases? How do you propose to proceed? Are these Russian subjects who may have been resident for a number of years past in Ireland to come over to this country and look to the tribunals or to the machinery of the Military Service Acts here? There is nothing in the Bill to explain their position or to provide the machinery for dealing with their cases, and if the hon. Member were in a position to explain what the Government propose to do in that case I think it might facilitate the progress of this Bill through the House of Commons. Certainly it will be necessary for us to put down an Amendment to be considered in the Com- mittee stage in regard to that point, because at this stage of the day and in view of all the circumstances it would not be possible for the Government, through a side door such as this, to set up tribunals or the whole machinery of the Military Service Acts in Ireland to deal with these cases. I come now to the other point which I want to bring to the notice of the Government. I contend that they ought to have dealt specifically with the case of Russia in connection with the convention they propose to make with that country. The hon. Member said it will be open to the Government to conclude conventions with any country allied to this country in the present War. What might be the consequences of that? Let us take the United States of America. Supposing they concluded a convention with the United States of America, the citizens of that country are to be liable to military service here and British subjects liable to service in the United States. You get this extraordinary principle that the Government is to-day coming down to the House of Commons and asking them to give their assent to a Bill which practically tears up the independence of all the great Dominions in the various parts of the world. Canada, as we know, has refused to pass Conscription, but if you pass this Bill you give to the British Government here at home the right to make a convention with the United States giving the United States power to conscript Canadian citizens because they are British subjects. You would have this extraordinary spectacle of Canada refusing to conscript her own subjects across the border and a country allied to this country conscripting many thousands of Canadian citizens who might be in the United States. Is not that true?
I will deal with that. It is not true.
I do not see what is in the Bill to prevent it.
We cannot conscript Irishmen.
I know you cannot, and we will take good care of that. We will not allow you to do it. But surely the hon. Member is not making an answer to the point I have made?
Yes, I am. This Bill does not affect Ireland at all.
I am not speaking of Ireland at all.
The United Kingdom means England, Scotland, and Wales; not Ireland at all.
That is no reply to the point I am making. I am talking of Canada. If this Government makes a convention with the United States of America you can conscript United States subjects here. Does the Under-Secretary deny that?
According to the convention.
Yes, according to the convention with the United States. Then the United States can conscript British subjects within their own borders?
No, only British subjects from the United Kingdom where the Military Service Act of 1916-17 applies.
I do not think that is in the Bill. That throws a new light on the Bill. I am glad to have the assurance of the hon. Member in charge of the Bill, but it is not in the Bill. Why is it not in the Bill? Where is the reference?
In Clause 1.
Let me read Clause 1:
"His Majesty may by Order in Council signifying that he has made a convention with a foreign country, Allied or otherwise, acting in co-operation with His Majesty in the present War (in this Act referred to as the contracting country), which imposes a mutual liability to military service on British subjects in that country"—
Go on!
"and on subjects of that country in the United Kingdom, direct that this Act shall have effect with respect to the contracting country and the subjects of that country, and on any such Order in Council being made this Act shall have effect accordingly."
What is the use of the Under-Secretary saying it is in Clause 1? I have read the whole of Clause 1, and there is not a word in it with reference to what the Under-Secretary says.
Will my hon. Friend read the next paragraph? Be- cause those two go together—paragraph (1) and paragraph (2) and Subsection (1).
I have read this Bill as carefully as I can, and if the hon. Gentleman takes up the position that the position of affairs which I have indicated is not the intention of the Government, then I say so much the better; so much the easier will the passage of the Bill be through the House of Commons. But where he and I part company on this question is the intention of the Government, which he has now expressed to the House, so far as I can see is not carried out in the Bill, and we shall have to see in Committee that that intention is made perfectly clear on the face of the Bill. I regret exceedingly that in this case, as in so many other cases which have recently come to the observation and attention of the House of Commons, the Government have been so careless and so loose in the technical drafting of the Bills which they present to the House. The matter which I have raised is one of a very wide and far-reaching character. It is not one which can be left to chance or hazard at all, and I will certainly raise the matter when the Bill comes forward in Committee. I am glad to have the assurance of the Under-Secretary on the Second Reading to-night, that it is not the intention of the Government to exend this under a convention with a foreign power and to give these extraordinary powers to those foreign Powers to conscript the citizens of the Empire where those parts have not submitted to conscription.
My excuse for taking part in the Debate to-night is that I represent a constituency in which perhaps there are more people affected by the Bill than in any other constituency in the country, and it is also a constituency where there is a very serious problem to be dealt with. It is all very well for hon. Members to talk about prejudices which ought to be recognised. There exists in my constituency, as well as in others, a condition of things which to-day amounts to nothing less than a scandal which the people will see is dealt with. A great deal of trouble has had to be taken by those in responsible positions there to prevent something like serious rioting in that district. It is all very well for hon. Gentlemen to get up and say that these are mere idle criticisms. But the position is really this, that you have got there a poor district, a people who have been subject to the Military Service Act and to the conscription which has been imposed upon British citizens. Of course, if hon. Members are against conscripting anybody, they are quite consistent in being against conscripting aliens. But let that be the ground, and we shall know where we are. These British subjects are conscripted, and they see there a most cruel and unfair advantage taken by those who are left, and who are receiving all the benefits by living in this country, but who openly boast that they are in that favourable position and that they will not in any way come to the assistance of the country of their adoption. It is suggested that these people have the right of asylum, that they are our guests. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cleveland (Mr. Samuel) says that they are in our own household. We are prepared to call in emergencies for services from our guests which in normal times we should not dream of. But if all those things which attract the people to this country are in danger in this War, it is not too much to say to those people that they must take their part and lot in maintaining the privileges which have attracted them here. I do want to say this, that it is a great mistake to suggest that there is any anti-Semetic or any religious question in this matter. I find amongst my constituents the people who are keenest about some measure being passed to deal with the alien Jews are the naturalised Jews in Stepney and the East End of London, who are liable to military service as naturalised subjects. They say, "we have come here and taken up the burden and accepted the privileges of citizenship, and these people have not; they are the worst competitors of ours and do the same kind of business, and you have no right to impose upon us conditions and allow these people to remain here to reap the advantage." So I am perfectly certain the Government is right in taking some measure which will enable them to call, as I think they have the right to call, at times upon these people for their services. I do want to support the suggestion made by the hon. Member who sits beside me (Colonel Ormsby Gore), I am bound to say the War Office have made mistakes in this matter, as they have elsewhere, in matters of recruiting. The present Member for Whitechapel (Mr. Kiley), who was Mayor of Stepney, over and over again called attention to it, and I went to the War Office and implored the War Office to allow these people to enrol in battalions as Jews and not to be isolated amongst various regiments. If they had done that, they would have stood a very great chance of getting a large number of people amongst these Jewish aliens to enlist—if they could have given them the privilege of joining in a battalion where their habits, and more or less their religious customs, could have been observed without difficulty. But the War Office did not see their way clear to do it.
Notice taken that Forty Members were not present; House counted, and Forty Members not being present—