House of Commons
Monday, May 21, 1917
Private Business
Aluminium Corporation Bill [Lords],
Read the third time, and passed, without amendment.
Armstrong, Whitworth, and Company (Railways) Bill,
Chepstow Water Bill,
Sheffield United Gaslight Company Bill,
As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
Ashton - under - Lyne Corporation Bill [Lords], Bedwas and Machen Urban District Council Bill [Lords], Caerphilly Urban District Council Bill [Lords], Kenilworth Gas Bill [Lords], London County Council (Money) Bill, North Cheshire Water Bill [Lords],
Read a second time, and committed.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 2) Bill,
"To confirm a certain Provisional Order of the Local Government Board for Ireland relating to the urban district of Lisburn," presented by Mr. DUKE; read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed.
Member for Longford, South
"Address for a Copy of the Charge, with the preliminary evidence, if any; a Copy of the Record of the proceedings, conviction, and sentence; and a Copy of the Warrant relating to the detention of Mr. Joseph MacGuinness, a Member of this House."
On a point of Order, Mr Speaker. May I inquire why you have not called for the second return on the Paper?
I have had no notice that the Government accept it.
This is a matter of great urgency and a question of privilege. May I put that to you?
I cannot put the question unless I have received a letter from the Government Department saying that they agree to it.
The form of the notice has been altered since I handed it in. Does that alter my right? I think I am entitled to revert to the form in which I handed the notice in at the Table. In that form I followed the precedent of 1875 in the case of John Mitchell.
That was not taken as a matter of privilege. It was one of the Orders of the Day.
Mr. Speaker. Am I not entitled, having put this notice on the Paper, to challenge a Division on the subject?
Yes, if the hon. Member can bring it forward; but I cannot call him at this point unless I receive notice from the Government Department that they agree to it.
Can I challenge a Division on the subject now?
No, for I have not called on the hon. Member.
POLICE DOGS IN PRISONERS' CAMPS (MISCELLANEOUS, No. 9, 1917)
Copy presented of Correspondence respecting the use of Police Dogs in Prisoners' Camps in Germany [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
East India (Civil Service)
Copy presented of Amendment of Rule 2 (1) of Regulations for Examinations for the Indian Civil Service [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Munitions
Copy presented of the Munitions (Tribunals) Amendment Rules, 1917 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Copy presented of the Munitions (Tribunals) (Scotland) Amendment Rules, 1917 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Copy presented of the Munitions (Tribunals) (Ireland) Amendment Rules, 1917 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Ministry of Food
Copies presented of Oat and Maize Products (Retail Prices) Order, 1917, Horses (Rationing) Order, 1917, Public Meals Order (No. 2), 1917, and Dealings in Oats (Restriction) Order, 1917, made by the Food Controller under the Defence of the Realm Regulations [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Mental Deficiency and Lunacy (Scotland) Act, 1913
Copy presented of Third Annual Report of the General Board of Control for Scotland [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Representation of the People Bill
Copy presented of the Appointment of Commissioners for the Representation of the People Bill, Redistribution of Seats, Boundary Commission (Scotland) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Civil Service Commission
Copy presented of Sixty-first Report of His Majesty's Civil Service Commissioners, with Appendices [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Civil Services, 1917–18 (Revised Estimate)
Estimate presented of the Amount required in the year ending 31st March 1918, for the Salary of the Vice-Chairman of the Statutory Committee of the Royal Patriotic Fund Corporation [by Command]; Referred to the Committee of Supply, and to be printed. [No. 82.]
Post Office (Foreign and Colonial Parcel Post)
Copy presented of the Foreign and Colonial Parcel Post Amendment (No. 81) Warrant, 1917, dated 24th February 1917 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Railway and Canal Traffic Acts, 1854 to 1894
Copy presented of Twenty-eighth Annual Report of the Railway and Canal Commission, with Appendix [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Oral Answers to Questions
War
Food Supplies
Maize
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the scarcity of maize, which is even now required for human consumption in Ireland, and the scarcity of offals for pig-feeding, and, in view of the fact that all Irish bacon comes on the British market, steps will be taken to divert to Ireland the maize and at least a portion of the offals now being permitted to go to Denmark?
No maize or offals are being exported from this country to Denmark, and such cargoes of these commodities as are now going forward are presumably neutral property bought in other countries and shipped on neutral vessels to a bonâ fide neutral destination. I do not, therefore, understand precisely what action on the part of His Majesty's Government the hon. Member is advocating.
Pheasant Shooting
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture (1) what action has been taken by him with regard to the fining of a farmer for killing a pheasant destroying the seed of a growing crop; (2) the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if his attention has been drawn to the fact that the food economy advocates in Lincolnshire are hampered by the magistrates at Bourne fining a farmer for killing a pheasant for destroying seed sown for the purpose of producing human food; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
The Board have caused a full report to be made in the matter by their District Commissioner, and have decided that, in this particular case, intervention is not justified. The War Executive Committee in this area has already secured on this estate a reduction of the pheasants, which are far fewer than Press reports of the case suggest. On the general question of game damage the board have decided to revive the Destruction of Pheasants Order which expired on 31st March last. This will permit landlords and shooting tenants to continue to shoot pheasants, and will enable executive committees, if they think it necessary in special cases, to authorise the farming tenant to do so on his own farm. The Board are making an Order prohibiting the rearing of pheasants except under licence by the War Executive Committee.
Do I understand that the Board of Trade does not propose to remit this fine?
As I have told my hon. Friend, that is really a question for the Home Office.
Is a man entitled to shoot bird, fox, or game that he surprises in the act of destroying or devouring food that is fit, or likely to become fit, for human consumption?
was understood to reply in the affirmative.
Will the same protection be afforded to farmers in connection with the birds scheduled under the Wild Birds Protection Order?
I am afraid I shall have to have notice of that question.
In view of the importance of pheasants as an article of cheap food—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—Yes!—is it desirable to allow the shooting of pheasants during the breeding season?
The Board have come to the conclusion that, where it is necessary, it is not a disadvantage to shoot pheasants.
Only in those cases?
asked the Home Secretary if it is proposed to remit the fine imposed on a farmer at Bourne, Lincolnshire, for killing a pheasant that was destroying seed peas, thereby exemplifying that food production must be preferred to game preservation in these days, when food production is vital to the national welfare?
I would refer my right hon. Friend to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for the Gainsborough Division on Thursday last.
Is it proposed to remit the fine?
No, Sir!
Small Holdings Act (Staffordshire)
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he received a communication, dated the 9th instant, from the hon. Member for North-West Staffordshire, and enclosed therewith a copy of a letter signed by one of the nine men concerned at Bignall End, Staffordshire, stating that they had made repeated applications for small holdings to the North Staffordshire County Council's Small Holdings Committee, and that having failed they had decided to write to their hon. Member and the President of the Board of Agriculture to use their influence on their behalf; whether he has replied to the letters; whether the operation of the Small Holdings Act has been entirely suspended during the War; whether the suspension is due to the difficulties that the Treasury experience in finding the necessary money or to some other cause, and, if so, will he state the difficulty; whether he will state the date on which the operation of the Act was suspended and by what authority; whether he will take steps to secure that county councils shall go on making provision for holdings wherever the opportunity occurs, and especially in the case of the nine men at Bignall End who have made repeated applications for small holdings and have equipment for the same?
The reply to the first and second parts of the question is in the affirmative. The suspension of the facilities for borrowing money for purchase or equipment of small holdings is due to the Government decision that State money would not be availiable for that purpose during the War. That decision was arrived at soon after the outbreak of War and was made owing to the need for national economy and the effect of the high rate of interest on such purchases. The Act has not been entirely suspended, for county councils may now provide small holdings under it in cases where land, needing no expenditure on equipment, can be obtained on lease. The Board are in communication with the Treasury with a view to secure some relaxation of the borrowing restrictions for use in those special cases where it can be justified. I am not in a position to say that the application from Bignall End constitutes such a case, but it will be carefully considered by the county council and the Board should additional facilities be forthcoming.
Allotments
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether his attention has been drawn to the position in respect of allotments in the parish of Warton, Carnforth, Lancashire; whether he is aware that applications have been made to the council to secure one or two acres for allotment purposes and that the council will make no move in the matter; and, in view of the importance of the question from the standpoint of food production, whether he will cause investigation to be made?
The Board do not appear to have received any information on this subject. Inquiries will, however, be made, and I shall be glad if my hon. Friend will supply me with any particulars which he may have.
Sporting Cartridges
asked what formality has to be complied with by a country cartridge dealer who desires to obtain cartridges for farmers to kill game and ground game destroying crops intended for human food?
At present a country dealer can obtain supplies of cartridges for the purposes described, if he forwards to the manufacturer the licences issued to the dealer's customers for this purpose by the executive of the War Agricultural County Committee. A simplification of this procedure is under consideration.
Cake and Pastry Order
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food on what principle dropped scones are included among the list of cakes forbidden while scones in which there is no sugar and not more than 50 per cent. of G.R. flour are included in the list of cakes allowed?
The dropped scone was forbidden because it appears to fall under the same category as the crumpet, the manufacture of which is specifically prohibited by the Cake and Pastry Order. Its composition is different to that of the ordinary scone. This ruling was approved by persons having expert knowledge of the Scottish bakery trade.
Can the hon. Gentleman say what is the basis of the distinction between the different kinds of confectionery or pastry embraced in this Order?
The governing factor is the percentage of flour or the degree of sweetness. If the hon. Member will study the prohibited list, I feel sure he will recognise the present impropriety of touching such delicacies as "Maids of Honour" or "Sally Lunns."
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that these methods have been raised in the West London Police Court, and that the magistrate says it is impossible to ascertain on what basis the distinction has been arrived at, and therefore he has dismissed the case.
It is quite clear after my recent explanation that there will be no such misapprehension in the future.
asked whether the recent Notes on the Cake and Pastry Order for the guidance of the trade were framed by persons having expert knowledge of that trade; and whether the trade was consulted before the Notes were issued?
Yes. Sir. These notes were drafted by the Glasgow Bakers' Association and eventually approved after consultation with representatives of the trade in England as well as of the principal trade journal.
Spraying Material
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) if there is plenty of spraying materials to be had for potatoes and other crops; and if he will consider the possibility of arranging that they may be sold at reasonable prices?
As I informed the hon. Member for North Monaghan last Thursday, sufficient supplies of spraying material to meet the requirements of Irish farmers for the coming season can at present be secured if orders are placed at once and immediate delivery taken. The Department of Agriculture desire to emphasise the importance of orders being placed at once, and immediate delivery taken. On this will depend whether the quantity of materials available will be adequate for the requirements of the Irish potato crop in the coming season.
Milk Prices
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that winter prices for milk still prevail in Glasgow; and whether he proposes to take any action?
Information to this effect had not reached the Ministry of Food prior to the receipt of the hon. Member's letter of the 16th. This matter is being closely investigated.
Meat Prices (Control)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, having regard to the alleged adequate supply of meat in this country, he can explain the fact that abnor- mally high prices continue to be charged by retail dealers; and whether he can suggest some means of reducing the price so as to enable the poorer classes to obtain butcher's meat at a price within the limits of their means?
The retail prices of meat have varied in direct relation to the wholesale prices, which have risen considerably. The increase of the latter is mainly due to seasonal causes, to a temporary diminution in the amount of imported meat available for civilian consumption, and to the high price of feeding stuffs. As I informed the House last Wednesday, the Food Controller is now in consultation with the Departments of Agriculture in reference to the control of meat prices, and is conferring with representatives of the meat trade with a view to taking early action in this matter.
May I ask whether the supply of meat is held up by a few monopolists who are making exorbitant profits?
I should not like to give any comprehensive answer to the question, but I am satisfied that there is a certain amount of undesirable speculation.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that neck of mutton on Saturday was 2s. a lb.?
Oats (Racehorses)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what is the total monthly consumption of oats by racehorses and horses used or intended to be used exclusively for racing or for breeding for racing as estimated by his Department?
The consumption of oats by horses of the classes specified in the question before the prohibition of racing and the imposition of restrictions by the Horses (Rations) Order may be estimated at between 900 and 1,000 tons per month.
In view of the great shortage of oatmeal in certain parts of the country, would it not be desirable to divert a considerable quantity of this supply at once for human food?
That is what is actually being done at the present time, and it is hoped that a noticeable difference will be seen in the course of the next few days.
May I ask whether the quantity of oats just referred to is based upon the calculation that there are 4,000 racehorses in training in this country, and is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Secretary of State for War, the largest breeder or owner in Great Britain or Ireland, stated a few days ago that there were only 1,000 racehorses in this country altogether?
I have no reason to believe that the estimate has been made on at all an extragavant basis. It has been formed as the result of a committee of experts from every part of the United Kingdom.
Is it possible to restrict the consumption without stopping it altogether?
As I have already explained, that matter is now under the consideration of the Cabinet, and I am not authorised to say anything further to-day.
May I ask why oatmeal has been fixed at 6s. 5d. a stone, when the retail price in Scotland—
That does not arise out of the question.
Fire at Gillingham
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he has any information as to the quantity of foodstuffs destroyed in the recent fire at the premises of the International Stores at Gillingham?
No foodstuffs were destroyed in the fire referred to.
Was any action taken against the rioters who attacked these stores?
No, Sir! It is not known what the origin of the fire was, and therefore it is impossible to take any action such as the hon. Member suggests.
Essential Foodstuffs (Prices)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that the prices of the essential foods of the working classes have increased on an average of 100 per cent. since the establishment of the Ministry of Food; to what does he attribute this increase; and to what extent this increase is to be permitted to extend before Regulations controlling the price of such essentials are issued?
The hon. Member is under a misapprehension. The prices of essential foodstuffs have risen on an average between 7 and 8 per cent. since the Food Controller took office. No important foodstuffs have risen in price to the extent suggested by the hon. Member, with the exception of beans, the increase in this case being due to an unusual demand for this commodity as a substitute for meat, bread, and potatoes. The wholesale prices of beans are already controlled, and the retail prices of various cereal meals, which showed an undue although smaller increase in price, have also been fixed.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Indian meal made out of Indian corn, which is now used partly for human food, has increased by over 300 per cent. over pre-war prices?
That is not the question I was asked. I was asked to what extent prices had increased since the establishment of the Ministry of Food. I am afraid it is a fact that many of these cereals have increased very considerably, and the same thing obtains even to a greater extent in many ether parts of the world.
What difference does it make to the consumer whether prices have increased since the Food Controller took office or since the commencement of the War, because the consumer has to pay in either case.
That does not arise out of the question, but I would like to remind the hon. Member and the House that there is one thing even more important than the price of food, and that is its availability.
Can the hon. Gentleman say whether it is possible to obtain beans at the price fixed by the Food Controller?
In certain parts of the country certainly, but beans are not a very plentiful article of food at the present time, and they are likely to become more scarce in the next few weeks
Will the hon. Gentleman answer the latter part of my question as to how long it is proposed to allow this to go on, and whether it is proposed to control the price?
I have already stated that the price of these commodities where an excessive increase of price has taken place is, in fact, being controlled.
Brewing Materials
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the Government have come to any decision as to the date after which all cereal grain shall be used solely for human food and brewing stopped until the War is finished?
I fear I cannot at present add anything to the replies already given on the subject.
Petrol Supplies
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether a supply of petrol can be awarded auctioneers and others to whom the motor car is an indispensable adjunct of their business?
The Petrol Control Committee are still prepared to consider applications for the renewal of motor spirit licences issued for private cars used for business purposes, but the maximum amount that can be allotted in such cases is necessarily small.
Feathers (Importation)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that on 23rd February, 1917, the importation of the feathers of wild birds was prohibited by Proclamation; that during the two following months, March and April, 48,346 pounds weight of these feathers were imported into this country; that these feathers are still being shipped from the countries of their origin; and whether he can state why at the present time, in view of the shortage of tonnage, these articles are allowed to occupy freight-space in defiance of the aforesaid Proclamation?
The quantity of feathers specified in the question was imported by virtue of the standing concession in favour of goods which were en route to this country or which were paid for by the importers before the date on which the importation was prohibited.
Assurance Policies Lapsed
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the fact that about 7,000,000 policies have been lapsed by the nineteen industrial assurance companies since the beginning of the War, and that for the years 1913 and 1914 they received £35,000,000 in premiums and only paid in claims and surrenders in those years £15,500,000, he can now say what steps he proposes to take to prevent these companies from lapsing so many of the policies of the working people and so taking sums of money out of their pockets without any benefit?
I would refer the hon. and gallant Gentleman to the answer given to his question on the 27th November last.
Am I to understand that the Board of Trade are not going to do anything to stop these insurance companies taking such enormous sums of money out of the pockets of the working people?
I understand that the question is not within the competence of the Board of Trade.
Munitions
Army Reserve Workers, Morecambe
asked the Minister of Munitions whether one of the men of the 7th Highland Light Infantry employed by the Ministry of Munitions at Morecambe is ill; whether his pay and subsistence allowance have been stopped and all he now has to support his wife and family in Glasgow and himself at Morecambe is his insurance benefit; and what arrangements he proposes to make in such cases?
I know of no case of illness amongst the Army Reserve munitions workers employed at Morecambe. One, however, who left his depot with instructions to report for munitions work at Morecambe is understood not to have carried out those instructions, but to have gone home to Glasgow. This man wrote on the 9th April—a fortnight later—to say that he was ill, but it seems that he has now found employment on his own account with a Glasgow firm.
If one of these workmen falls ill at Morecambe, is he left without pay or without allowance?
No; but perhaps my hon. Friend will put a question on the Paper.
asked the Minister of Munitions how many men of the 7th Highland Light Infantry are now employed under the Ministry of Munitions at Morecambe on unskilled labour; how long have they been so employed; how many of them, in addition to ordinary civil pay, are being paid subsistence allowance to enable them to maintain two homes; and whether these men could be more usefully employed at less cost to the nation in Glasgow, where their homes are?
Twenty-eight Army Reserve munitions workers transferred to Reserve W from the Highland Light Infantry are employed at Morecambe. They started work there originally on 13th September last as a military working party, but were passed to Reserve W on 28th February; eighteen of these men are receiving subsistence allowance. As far as possible Army Reserve munitions workers are placed near their homes, but in cases like this of Morecambe, where local labour is not available for important munitions work, it is necessary to transfer labour from elsewhere. These men will be returned to the Glasgow district if at any time it is found possible to place them there on munitions work and at the same time to provide substitutes for them at Morecambe.
Woolwich Arsenal (Deputy-Assistant Inspector)
asked at whose suggestion Mr. Brand was recently appointed Deputy-Assistant Inspector at Woolwich Arsenal just at the moment when his last appeal against military service had failed; and what are his special qualifications, what is the nature of the work, what is the salary, what is his age, and what is his military category?
Mr. Brand's application for employment by the Ministry was considered by the officers responsible for the selection of a suitable staff. His qualifications are that he is a qualified engineer. He is employed in the inspection of gun ammunition. His salary is £300 per annum. He is thirty-two years of age, and his medical category is C 1.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he communicated with the War Office before accepting this man; whether he is aware that the War Office has been trying for months to get this man into the Army, and why he is sheltered like this?
I am not aware of this, but I will inquire.
Inventions Department
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government will grant to the Munitions Inventions Department the power to exempt from active service men who, in their opinion, would render better service to their country by perfecting inventions of naval and military utility than by bearing arms?
The Ministry of Munitions may, in consultation with the Army Council, grant exemption from active service to men employed by the Munitions Inventions Department of the Ministry on the work of perfecting inventions of naval and military utility, where it appears to be to the advantage of the public service to do so.
Is it not a fact that very often, when men have been recommended for exemption from military service, those recommendations have never been listened to?
If my hon. Friend will give me particulars of any such case, I will have inquiry made.
Building Restrictions
asked the Minister of Munitions whether the Regulation preventing employers in the building and other trades engaging men to do other than Government work has been withdrawn?
I have been asked to answer this question. In view of special arrangements which have been made by the National Service Department with the representatives of employers and workpeople in the building trade for the release of men to act as substitutes and reinformcements in essential industries, it has been agreed that the provisions of the Restricted Occupations Order shall not in future be enforced as regards that trade. Similar arrangements have been come to as regards certain other trades covered by the Schedule to the Restricted Occupations Order.
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that the Treasury ruling which deprives a pensioner of his pension or so much thereof as, together with the wages he is able to earn on re-entering the employment of the Crown, is in excess of the wages he was earning at the time of his discharge to pension, deters men from reentering; and whether he will at once consider the desirability of making the conditions of re-entry more attractive by increasing the amount of the pension for each year's or part of a year's service, or by offering a gratuity to those who re-enter?
We are aware that some workmen who have been pensioned from the Dockyard service are not willing to re-enter service under the conditions prescribed in the Superannuation Act, 1834, namely, that only such portion of their superannuation allowances shall be payable as may be required to make their emoluments equal to those they were in receipt of prior to being superannuated. The matter has been repeatedly under consideration, and it has been decided that the advantages to be gained by altering the conditions with a view to attracting to the Dockyard service a few workmen who have previously been superannuated from that service are not sufficient to warrant any special steps being taken in the matter.
asked whether any decision in the matter of pension has been taken with regard to the mother of Michael Cosgrove, stoker, Royal Naval Auxiliary, who appears to have lost his life in the Mediterranean early in the year 1916?
The case of Michael Cosgrove has been gone into anew in consequence of my hon. Friend's question of 21st February. I then replied that he disappeared on the night of 1st February, 1916, and the presumption was that he had deserted. Further investigation has led us to arrive at the decision to withdraw that presumption, and I am very glad to have an opportunity of stating this. In consequence of this revision, it has been found possible by the Ministry of Pensions to award his mother a pension of 5s. a week, the amount of prior dependence, with effect from 3rd August, 1916.
asked the Pensions Minister whether the new Royal Warrant for officers has yet received the sanction of the Treasury, and when the House will have an opportunity of discussing it?
I have found it necessary since the draft Warrant was submitted to the Treasury to consider further certain of its provisions. With regard to the question of a discussion in the House, the question should be addressed to the Leader of the House.
Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman say when the Warrant will be issued?
No, I cannot say definitely, but I hope very shortly. The hon. Member will appreciate that it is a very difficult thing to formulate, and it is much better to wait a little time to get it right than to bring it in prematurely.
Can my hon. and gallant Friend say whether, when it is brought in, it will also include the nurses?
Yes, it does include the nurses.
Board of Admiralty
asked whether the enlargement of the Board of Admiralty, so that some members deal exclusively with the conduct of the War and others with administration and material, means in practice that the Board as a whole will not meet but that certain members will be summoned according as the subject under discussion belongs to one of the two categories?
It is not intended to depart from the traditional practice of holding meetings of the Board of Admiralty.
Torpedoed Vessels
asked whether vessels which are torpedoed, and which are brought into port or beached and can be repaired, are included in the weekly Admiralty statistics as unsuccessfully attacked or are excluded from the statistics altogether?
These vessels are excluded from the Returns.
Sailmakers
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is yet in a position to make a statement with regard to the granting the rate of chief petty officer to sailmakers in the Royal Navy?
The rating of chief petty officer has already been established for sailmakers.
Steam Trawler "Gretta Ii."
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the steam trawler "Gretta II." was brought into Aberdeen for repair of her boiler by order of his Department; whether an offer of a new boiler was there made for £800 by the firm of Abernethy which would have enabled the boat to go to sea within four weeks; whether the offer was refused, and repairs to her boiler at the cost of £1,100 proceeded with which took six months' time, during which time a substitute boat on hire at £120 per week had to be found, which hire amounted in the end to £3,000; if so, will he say who was responsible for this transaction?
The answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's question is in the affirmative; but no such offer as that referred to in the second part of the question was received from the firm mentioned, nor from any other firm. The cost and period of repairs are approximately as stated, but a suitable new boiler could not have been obtained at the price mentioned, nor was it considered that a new boiler could be made as cheaply and quickly as the old one could be repaired. No substitute vessel was engaged; and no such rate as that quoted in the latter part of the question is paid for any trawler under Admiralty charter.
Was that sum not paid for the boat itself?
I do not understand. We did not engage any substitute.
Was that the price paid by the Admiralty for the boat which was undergoing repairs?
Perhaps my hon. Friend will put down a question.
Board of Invention and Research
Duties and Salaries
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he could briefly define the functions of the Board of Invention and Research; whether that Board has power to accept or reject inventions dealing with the submarine menace only or all inventions relating to the Navy; what salary the President of the Board receives; how often the Board meets; and how many sittings the President has attended during the last twelve months?
The functions of the Board of Invention and Research are: The Board considers all inventions relating to naval warfare and acts in an advisory capacity to the Admiralty. It has funds at its disposal for carrying out trials and experiments, and possesses full facilities for arriving at a decision whether an invention is worthy of adoption or not; but the adoption of an invention is subject to the approval of the Board of Admiralty. The general superintendence of the Board of Invention and Research is reserved to the First Lord, to whom it has direct access.
The Central Committee meets once a week; the Panel once every six weeks; and the Sub-Committees hold meetings at frequent intervals as the circumstances require. The President has attended fifty-four sittings during the last twelve months
asked which of the members of the Admiralty Board of Invention and Research, including the Central Committee and the consulting panel, receive remuneration for their services, and how much they respectively receive; and whether the paid members of the Board are expected to and do attend the meetings of the Board with regularity?
The answer to the first part of the question is as follows: The President—£1,350 a year, in addition to retired pay.
Vice-Admiral Sir Richard H. Peirse, K.C.B., M.V.O. (naval member of Central Committee)—£1,530 a year.
Professor W. H. Bragg, F.R.S. (member of Panel)—Whilst occupying the post of Resident Director of Research at an Admiralty Experimental Station, professorial salary of £1,000 a year at the University of London is refunded by the Admiralty to the university authorities.
Dr. Dugald Clerk, F.R.S. (member of Panel)—As Director of Engineering Research at the Admiralty Engineering Laboratory, City and Guilds (Engineering) College, South Kensington, is entitled to repayment of out-of-pocket expenses to an amount not exceeding £600 a year.
The answer to the latter part of the question is in the affirmative.
Does this Board of Invention and Research act also for the War Office or is there a separate Board for the War Office?
I think they act for the Admiralty only.
I am very loth to ask my right hon. Friend this question, but I would like to know, in view of the great disfavour which this Board, rightly or wrongly, has brought upon itself, whether I should be allowed to show some of the hundreds of letters of complaint which I have received with a view to the reconstruction of the Board?
I could not say at all whether the complaints are well-founded or not, but I feel quite sure the Central Committee would investigate any complaints made to them.
Can we be informed whether any statement of the practicable needs of the Admiralty and the Fleet in general terms has been formulated and given to the Board of Inventions, and whether he would allow the House to see it?
Order, order!
Post Office Appointments (Ireland)
asked the Postmaster-General if the Post Office superintending engineer, Ireland, who left England apparently to evade the Military Service Acts, and who is still of military age, did not during the Irish rebellion approach the danger zone, whilst the work of establishing and maintaining communications in the firing zone was successfully performed by an Irishman; if it was only when the work could be performed in absolute safety that the engineer referred to was accorded any assistance; if he was ignored in subsequent public congratulations and announcements; and if any official recognition has been accorded this officer for his work?
The officer referred to left England, at the order of his superior officer, having been selected, against his own wish, as the best qualified of the various officers available for the control of engineering services in Ireland, and has discharged his duties, both during and since the rebellion, to my entire satisfaction. As he left nine months before the passing of the first Military Service Act, it is obvious that he did not leave Eng- land to escape military service; and throughout the disturbances he moved freely about the zone of danger without regard for personal safety. If any member of his staff considers that services rendered by him have not been recognised adequately, it is open to him to lay a statement of the circumstances before his superior officers.
asked the Postmaster-General if he aware that for the period from August, 1914, to April, 1915 the Post Office engineering branch in Ireland was controlled by an Irishman, acting as superintending engineer, assisted by other Irishmen, and that when the acting superintending engineer joined His Majesty's forces, although over military age, he was replaced by an Englishman of military age, who brought over with him six personal friends, some of whom were of military age, to be placed in charge of elections over the heads of Irishmen who had been carrying on the work satisfactorily; and if he will say whether the volume of work in this Department was greater during the period August, 1914 to April, 1915 than during any similar period since?
I do not know whether the officer alluded to is an Irishman. He joined the Army at his own desire. The officer sent to Ireland to take charge of Post Office engineering work there as superintending engineer in April, 1915, was not consulted in the selection of the staff which accompanied him. On this point I would refer the hon. Member to my answer to his question of the 2nd April. The last part of the hon. Member's question could not be answered without an examination of statistics, which I am not prepared to undertake.
asked the Postmaster-General what amount was expended by the Post Office engineering branch in the removal to Ireland in April, 1915, of the households of seven engineering officers; and if the amount was debited to the Irish account?
£442 9s. 7d.; there is no separate Irish account for such expenditure.
Military Service
Conscientious Objectors
asked the Postmaster-General whether Mr. Allinson, a conscientious objector, is employed in doing censorship work; and will he take the necessary steps to remove this man from this appointment and hand him over to do such work in France as will ensure his remuneration being more on a par with that received by men who are fighting in the trenches?
I must ask my hon. Friend to furnish more precise information, as I can trace no individual of the name mentioned employed in the postal censorship who answers to this description. If my hon. Friend refers to anyone employed at the Press Bureau, it will be for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to reply.
I will certainly supply the information.
asked the Home Secretary who are the members of the Committee appointed to find work for conscientious objectors; when and by whom was this Committee appointed; how many conscientious objectors have been found employment in work connected with the Government; and is it intended that loyal Government employés with relations at the front should be turned out of Government emlpoyment because they refuse to work with or supervise the work of conscientious objectors?
This Committee was appointed by the Home Secretary, and the names have been published. The number of men claiming to be conscientious objectors who have been employed in work connected with Government Departments under the Home Office scheme is thirty-eight. The last part of the question does not appear to concern my Department.
Certified Occupations
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that men in employment necessary for carrying on the War are taken for the Army if they keep bad time, he can say for what reason men of military age who strike against the orders of their trades union leaders are not treated in the same way?
My hon. and gallant Friend is not quite correct in his statement of the position with regard to men who keep bad time. The protection given to skilled men in certain trades engaged on Government work and to men in certified occupation is subject to withdrawal if the men are shown to have a bad record for absence from work. Each case, however, must be the subject of investigation, as it is obvious that there might be a reasonable explanation for a man's absence from work, such as domestic affliction, ill-health, etc. My hon. and gallant Friend will, therefore, see that the putting into force of the suggestion he makes is not so simple as would appear from his question. I would also refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer given to him by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions last Thursday.
In the case of men who are only not called up for military service because they are considered more necessary for other work, should not those men if they refuse to work, be taken by the Army?
I think they should, if they come under the Military Service Acts.
Representation of the People Bill
asked the Home Secretary if, under the Representation of the People Bill, no Parliamentary borough with a population exceeding 50,000 inhabitants is to be in any way interfered with by any scheme of redistribution of seats?
The representation of the Parliamentary boroughs will be determined in accordance with the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference. In no case will a borough of 50,000 inhabitants lose its separate representation in Parliament.
asked the Prime Minister as the redistribution proposals of the Representation of the People Bill are based on the assumption that the Home Rule Act reducing the Irish representation in this House is put into operation, and should such Act become inoperative, will he say what basis for representation in Great Britain the Government proposes to adopt?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. The proposals of the Speaker's Conference on Electoral Reform, which will be embodied in the Representation of the People Bill are made upon the basis that the number of Members of the House of Commons for Great Britain shall remain substantially as at present. It is, therefore, not the fact that the Bill is based on any assumption as to the operation of the Home Rule Act, and the question put by my right hon. Friend does not arise.
(by Private Notice) asked the Prime Minister when an opportunity will be given for the discussion of the Instructions to the Boundary Commissioners?
An opportunity for a discussion on the recommendations of Mr. Speaker's Conference on the subject of Redistribution, upon which the Instructions are based, will arise in the Debate on the Motion for the Second Reading of the Bill.
Will there be any opportunity of moving Amendments?
In Committee.
Will they be part of the Bill?
Sunday Trading (Hetton, Durham)
asked the Home Secretary if he has received a resolution from the urban district council of Hetton, county Durham, calling attention to the increase of Sunday trading in that district during recent years; what steps the Home Office proposes to reduce what is regarded as a growing evil; and what powers do the police or other authorities possess to check the same?
I have received the resolution referred to in the question. I would refer the hon. Member to the replies given to the question of the hon. Member for Swansea District on the 27th April, and to previous questions on the same subject. Sunday trading is prohibited, subject to certain exceptions, by the Sunday Observance Act of 1677, and it is open to the local authorities if they see fit to take proceedings under that Act.
Will my right hon. Friend send me copies of the answer to which he alludes?
Certainly.
Government of Ireland
asked the Prime Minister whether he has noticed that, since July, 1914, in divisions in this House on matters affecting Ireland all English parties have combined to outvote and defeat the party claiming to represent Irish Nationalists; that the leaders of that party frequently complain of having been betrayed, contemptuously ignored, and a policy pursued opposed to that which they advised; that every memorial and resolution sent to the Government, or to any Member of the Government, by an Irish corporation, county, borough, or district council, or other representative body on a matter of Irish importance has been similarly treated, and the opposite policy pursued; that all forms of justice and civil law have been abrogated; that men not subject to military law have been, in contravention of English statutes, tried by secret courts-martial, some executed, and many sent to penal servitude, where they still are; that many, without charge or trial, have been deported to England, where they still are; that no public meeting of protest is allowed; that elected public bodies are warned not to call attention to these things; that so much of the public Press as is not silenced by bribes is silenced by Government authority; that Ireland is held and ruled as a conquered country by a large army of occupation; that its appeals to neutral countries, in the absence of constitutional government, are intercepted and prevented; that the Irish people, forced by these facts to withdraw their representation from Westminster and look elsewhere for justice, now trust and rely upon themselves alone, Sinn Fein amain; and whether he has any statement to make on the international, the English, or the Irish aspect of this situation?
:I can add nothing to previous statements on this subject.
Can the right hon. Gentleman state when the statements were made on this subject and by whom?
It would be rather difficult to say from memory. A great many have been made both by the Prime Minister and other members of the Government.
asked the Prime Minister, having regard to the declaration of the new Russian Government that the integrity and independence of Poland must be restored and the declaration of the American Government that the lasting peace to be aimed at in the War must be founded upon equality of rights without distinction between big nations and small, and must apply equally to those subject to the Entente Powers as to those subject to the Central Powers, whether the corresponding British declaration of concurrence in this will be made without further delay or withheld until compelled by American pressure; and whether it will be put into practice in Ireland where there is no other foreign Power to oppose?
I can add nothing to the statements already made in this House on the subject.
asked the Prime Minister whether it is with the concurrence of the War Cabinet that the Home Office and the Irish Office use the emergency powers of the State to damage the professional prospects and destroy the means of living of political opponents not tried for or charged with any illegality; whether his attention has been called to the letters from the Home Office to administrative bodies in this country preventing them on political grounds from appointing Dr. M'Cartan as medical officer, when the need for such an officer was intensified by the demands of the War; whether his attention has been called to the Order of the Irish Office preventing on political grounds the Galway County Council from paying Mr. George Nicolls his salary as coroner in accordance with his contract, although he povides a competent substitute for discharging the duties during his banishment; whether he is aware that, in addition to the personal and professional injury to these two gentlemen in arresting them, tearing them from their families and affairs, and banishing them from their country without charge or trial, their families and dependants suffer sufficiently without this additional suffering imposed by the Departments mentioned; whether both these gentlemen demand a trial, even by a jury in one of the counties proposed to be excluded from Home Rule, and that it is under emergency legislation a trial is denied them; and, in view of his recent admission that since the War began English rule has transformed Ireland from the one bright spot into the one menacing prospect, whether the War Cabinet will, on the example of Russia, reverse its policy and leave Ireland to exercise the right common to all nations of ruling herself?
The Prime Minister has asked me to reply to this question. Dr. M'Cartan and Mr. George Nicholls were among the persons who by order of a competent military authority, the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief in Ireland, were in February last prohibited from residing in Ireland. The Order remains in force, and His Majesty's Government do not at present see any reason for overruling the discretion which is reposed in the Commander-in-Chief under the Defence of the Realm Act.
Will the right hon. Gentleman or the Leader of the House inform the House whether the state of Ireland revealed in these questions is satisfactory?
I am not sure that the state of Ireland is revealed in the questions.
Irish Prisoners
asked the Prime Minister (1) whether he has read the opinion expressed by his predecessor in this House on 11th May last that with regard to the rank and file in the Dublin insurrection, many of them very young men, even lads, the conduct in their case was a merely venial and pardonable error; whether the prolonged detention of youths in penal servitude for pardonable political errors will come up for consideration at the approaching International Peace Conference; whether the ten Irish youths under nineteen years of age now in penal servitude at Lewes for those pardonable errors will be released now or detained until the peace conference has given a decision on the subject; (2) whether he is aware that Cornelius Colbert, executed in Dublin on 8th May last, on the unsupported hearsay evidence of Major Armstrong, on the charge of having fought at Jacob's biscuit factory, at his trial offered to produce evidence that he had not been at Jacob's at all; that the president of the secret Court replied that it would make no difference whether Colbert's statement was proved or not, and that Colbert was convicted and executed on a charge which he was thus prevented from disproving, and which numerous competent witnesses are still available to disprove; this case being typical of all the cases then tried by secret courts-martial, whether there is any reason but these defects for concealing the reports of those trials, whether a public unrestricted inquiry, to be presided over by a judge from one of the Allied countries, will be instituted into the Irish insurrection of 1916, the constitution and conduct of the secret Courts, and the charges and evidence against the accused; pending its Report, whether those now in penal servitude by order of those secret courts-martial will be released; (3) whether the attention of the Government has been called, in the evidence of Major Armstrong, the uncorroborated witness against Mr. William T. Cosgrave, a member of the Dublin Corporation, now in penal servitude under sentence of a secret court-martial for an unspecified political offence in Ireland, to the fact that no specific charge was made, nor any time, place, date, or other essential particular of an offence proved or even alleged; that the only evidence of Mr. Cosgrave having been armed was the absence of his name from a list of persons believed not to have been armed; that Major Armstrong was unable to say what arms Mr. Cosgrave bore; that, this case being typical, the entire lack of legal evidence is the reason for concealing the reports of the secret courts-martial; whether these circumstances have been discussed with the American Government in connection with the desired alliance; whether they are among the matters to be submitted to the International Peace Conference after the War; meanwhile whether those now in penal servitude by order of those secret courts-martial will be released; (4 having regard to the fact that of the three charges which Eamonn Kent was convicted and executed on the 8th May last in Dublin on the unsupported hearsay evidence of Major Armstrong, of the first charge, that Kent had been fighting in Jacob's biscuit factory, no evidence was given, and it could have been, and can still be, disproved by many competent witnesses; of the second charge, that Kent had been armed, no evidence was given beyond the statement that a list was taken of all who had surrendered, from this a subsequent list extracted of all who were believed to have been unarmed, and that, since the accused was not on the latter list, he must be presumed to have been armed; and of the third charge, that Kent had signed the republican proclamation, no evidence was offered but the fact of his name appearing in print on that proclamation, the conviction being therefore legally bad from lack of evidence, the execution being consequently illegal, this case being typical of all then tried by secret courts-martial, the restricted reference to the Hardinge Commission having prevented a full inquiry, even some of the restricted evidence obtained by it having been suppressed; whether the Government will now, in the interest of justice and the credit of the Empire, institute a public unrestricted inquiry into the Irish insurrection of 1916, the constitution and conduct of the secret courts, and the charges, witnesses, and evidence against the accused, and, pending its report, release from penal servitude all those convicted by those secret courts-martial; (5) whether, as a preliminary to any fresh proposal regarding the government of Ireland, he is in a position to announce the immediate release of the 130 Irish political prisoners now suffering penal servitude by order of secret courts-martial; whether the Countess Markievicz, who has spent twelve months in solitary confinement while the men imprisoned for the same offence are allowed intercourse, will be released with the others; and whether he can also announce the immediate release of the Irishmen deported from Ireland without charge or trial?
The Prime Minister has asked me to deal with these questions. The time has not arrived for reopening the cases referred to in these questions.
That is nearly a contemptuous answer. Will the right hon. Gentleman inform the House whether the Court mentioned in some of these questions was the same Court which tried and sentenced the hon. Member for Longford (Mr. J. MacGuinness)?
I have nothing to add to the answer I have given.
Can the right hon. Gentleman deny that it was the same Court?
I have still nothing to add.
Arterial Drainage and Agriculture (Ireland)
asked the Prime Minister when a day will be given for a discussion of the Motion on Arterial Drainage (Ireland) standing in the name of the hon. Member for Leix?—"That, in view of the absolute necessity for protecting, maintaining, and developing the sources of food supply during the War and after, this House is of opinion that a scheme of arterial drainage for Ireland should be at once formulated and put into effect, in order to render available for food production the immense tracts of land at present rendered useless by the flooding of Irish river."]— [Mr. Patrick Meehan.]
asked the Prime Minister when a day will be given for a discussion of the Motion on Agriculture (Ireland) standing in the name of the hon. Member for Leix?—["That, as food is the first want and its procuration the first work of a country, and in view of the vital necessity of developing the sources of food supply during the War and after, this House is of opinion that prompt and effective steps should be taken to make the untenanted grass land of Ireland available for tillage by vesting the Estates Commissioners and the Congested Districts Board with increased powers and facilities, or otherwise."]— [Mr. Patrick Meehan.]
I cannot give special facilities for the discussion of the Motions referred to. Both subjects can, I understand, be raised in Debate on the Irish Estimates.
Summer Time Act
asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the advisability of further extending the advantages of the daylight-saving system by utilising a second hour during the period of longest daylight, so as to produce a maximum of economy in national resources?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply. The question of advancing the time by a second hour during the period of longest daylight was considered by the Departmental Committee, but they reported adversely to the proposal. Very few suggestions in favour of this course were received by them, and they were of opinion that it would lead to inconvenience and confusion. The Government do not propose, therefore, to take any steps in the direction suggested.
Ministry of Food
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction that exists throughout this country with the administration of the Department of the Food Controller; and, under these circumstances, if he can see his way clear to appoint a special Committee to inquire into and report upon the administration of the Food Controller, with powers to discover the books and documents of any firm that may be involved in such inquiry, and also with power to examine witnesses on oath?
The answer is in the negative.
Might I ask whether he is aware that grave charges are being made on public platforms throughout the country and otherwise as to the administration of the Food Controller generally, and whether, if this continues, he will either take action against the people making the charges or appoint a Committee?
It depends upon the people who make the charges. We shall take no action unless we think that there is some foundation for doing so.
Has the right hon. Gentleman noticed that the statement made by the Director of Food Economy in Edinburgh differs from the statement of the Prime Minister in the Secret Session?
No, I have not noticed it.
asked the Prime Minister whether Mr. Gilbert Augustin Tonge, of Kearley and Tonge, governing director of the International Tea Stores, holds any paid or unpaid post under the Government or is or has been called in any capacity, consulting or otherwise, by the Ministry of Food?
I have been asked to reply. The answer is in the negative.
asked the Prime Minister whether he will call on persons who are directly or indirectly concerned, paid or unpaid, with the Ministry of Food to make a statutory declaration of any interests they may hold either directly or through the medium of nominees in any company, trading concern, or undertaking, British or Foreign, which may be directly or indirectly affected by market fluctuation occasioned by food regulations or any other cause attributable to the actions of the Ministry of Food?
The answer is in the negative.
Partially Disabled Men (Employment)
asked the Minister of Labour whether the work of the employment exchanges and local war pensions committees, and the various bodies which are co-operating with them in finding employment for partially disabled men, would be facilitated if they had ready to hand a national roll of employers willing to engage such men now, and to continue to do so as long as the need exists; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
I am not convinced that the best interests of disabled men would be served by the preparation of a national roll of employers willing to employ such men.
asked the Minister of Labour whether, in the further arrangements for finding employment for partially disabled men under post-war conditions, which is under the consideration of His Majesty's Government, due weight will be given to the enhanced difficulty of the problem after the demobilisation of the forces, when the labour market will be flooded by able-bodied men seeking for employment, whom employers will naturally be inclined to engage in preference to those suffering under any physical disability?
The considerations mentioned in the question are being borne in mind in the preparations of plans for dealing with the problems which will arise after the War.
Does the remark of the right hon. Gentleman allude to his public statements respecting the demobilisation of the Forces, or, as this question implies, does it deal with men who are already out of the War on account of their discharge or disablement?
I understand that such men have been replaced very rapidly.
National Service
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of National Service whether he is aware that dissatisfaction prevails among the men who have enrolled as professional and commercial men on the special register owing to the employment he is offering to them of an unsuitable character; and will he make inquiries into the matter?
I have been asked by my hon. Friend to answer this question as the work of placing professional and commercial men has been entrusted by the Director-General of National Service to the professional and business register of the Ministry of Labour. I am not aware of the dissatisfaction referred to by the hon. Member, but if he will inform me of any specific cases I will cause inquiries to be made.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of National Service whether he can give the amount of money expended on the National Service Department since its formation to the 30th April last; can he specify the amount spent on advertising, including the cost of paper and printing; how many national volunteers were enrolled up to the 30th April last; and how many have been placed in employment?
The answer to the first part of the hon. Member's question is, approximately, £104,000, of which sum £1,150 has been paid in subsistence allowances, and £150 in railway fares for volunteers. The amount spent on advertising is, approximately, £78,000. The number of National Service volunteers enrolled up to the 30th April was 307,005, of whom, approximately, 130,000 were munition workers or otherwise not available for putting into other employment than that on which they were engaged. The number actually placed up to 4th May (the date taken for statistical purposes) is returned by the Employment Exchanges as 9,092.
Are we to understand from that statement that it takes £100,000 to fix up 9,000 men?
You have to understand exactly what the answer states.
Is it not a fact from what the hon. Gentleman has stated, that each man placed in work has cost in advertising alone over £10?
No, Sir. That is not quite correct.
It is, very nearly.
I want to put my hon. Friend mathematically correct. There have been 9,092 people placed. The advertising and incidental expenses have cost £78,000, therefore about £8 10s. is the exact figure.
Old Age Pensions
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in the event of a trade union or other provident society granting a temporary increase in superannuation benefit to an old age pensioner to meet the increased cost of living, such increase would be taken into account in estimating the amount of old age pension to which the pensioner would in future be entitled?
My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House has asked me to answer this question. No action would be taken for the revocation or reduction of the old age pension on account of such an increase, provided that the increase did not exceed 5s. a week. If, however, the pensioner were in receipt of an additional allowance under the recent scheme, its amount might be affected.
Alien Enemies
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department on what dates O. Krolle, of Camden Town, and Josef Lauer were respectively interned; whether, prior to his internment, Krolle was allowed out on finding sureties; and, if so, who were such sureties?
Krolle was interned on 14th April and Lauer on 30th December last. Krolle, who had previously been exempted on public grounds, was not required to find sureties.
asked the Home Secretary what arrangements have been made to see that uninterned alien enemies are employed on work of national importance?
The occupations of the male enemy subjects who have so far been exempted from internment or repatriation have been reviewed, and where they are not already employed on work of national importance, they have been required to furnish particulars similar to those given by persons offering to undertake National Service. These particulars have been forwarded to the National Service Department, who are taking steps, through their substitution officers, to place them in useful work.
Have any conscientious objectors been allowed?
We are only dealing with aliens.
asked the Home Secretary whether there has been any perceptible alteration in the number of interned alien enemies since February last?
On 14th May, the last date for which figures are available, there were 61 more men in the civilian internment camps than there were at the end of February.
Naturalisation (Bernard Shereck)
asked the Home Secretary on what date Bernard Shereck was naturalised; whether any inquiries were then made or have since been made as to his previous character and as to his reasons for leaving Germany; and whether from his present knowledge the naturalisation was a desirable one in the interests of this country?
Bernard Shereck was naturalised in 1904. Inquiries have been made about this man since the War began, but nothing has been ascertained which leads to the belief that his naturalisation was against the interests of this country. I am informed that he has two sons serving in the British Army at the front. I do not know the reasons why he left Germany
Tobacco Duty
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that the retailers of tobacco are charging for it an increase in price of 2d. per ounce; and, seeing that the poor man's pipe is in many-cases the only pleasure he has, will he consider the advisability of reducing the tax on the cheaper quality of tobacco usually consumed by the poor man so that the increase in price shall be only ld. per ounce?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As I have already explained, the suggestion contained in the second part is not practicable.
Inhabited House Duty (Arrears)
asked the hon. Member for Worcestershire (Bewdley Division) whether he is aware that officers of his Department in the years 1915–16 charged costs in arrears of Inhabited House Duty in cases where the men of the family were at the front serving their country, and where the Courts of justice would not have granted costs under the Courts (Emergency Powers) Acts had the taxpayers known to take the cases into Court, and in particular that the collector at Paisley so acted in instances in Renfrewshire where widows whose only sons were at the front were charged costs in such cases; and, if so, will he see that such action is not permitted by his Department this year?
I am causing inquiry to be made, and will communicate the result to the hon. Member.
Imperial Conference
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the members of the Imperial Conference received a second letter containing definite and reasoned proposals by the Member for West Clare for establishing a Republican form of Government in the Dominions; whether these proposals have been considered; and, if so, whether he can state the decision arrived at?
I have no knowledge of such a letter.
I will raise this question on the Adjournment to-night.
General Smuts
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the novel theories contained in the speech of General Smuts, of Tuesday last, in regard to the factors that produce cohesion in the Crown dominions, he will advise having the speech printed as a Parliamentary Paper, and will also ask for a day to debate it?
No, Sir.
Soldiers Missing (Turkey)
asked the hon. Member for Sheffield (Central Division), what means exist for obtaining information, whether through the Red Cross Society or neutral Powers or otherwise, as to the fate of soldiers reported missing in the course of fighting in Turkey?
As it would be difficult to give my hon. Friend the desired information within the limits of a reply to a question, I would refer him to the leaflet on the subject issued by the War Office, of which I have sent him a copy.
Dublin Metropolitan Police
asked the Chief Secretary if he is aware that the Press Censor for Ireland has sent a warning to all Irish newspapers directing attention to Article 27 (c) of the Defence of the Realm Regulations, which prescribes that no person shall, by word of mouth or in writing or in any newspaper, periodical, book, circular, or other printed publication, spread reports or make statements intended or likely to prejudice the recruiting, training, discipline, or administration of any of His Majesty's Forces or the discipline of any police force, and pointing out that speeches or articles which suggest that any particular political action by the Government will result in affecting the loyalty or discipline of His Majesty's Forces are in contravention of this Regulation; and if he will say whether this was issued in consequence of a report appearing in the Press intimating that the members of the Dublin Metropolitan Police had decided to make a presentation to the five constables recently dismissed for assisting in a movement to better the conditions of pay in the force?
The Press Censor called the attention of editors of newspapers to the Regulation in question, but not for the reason suggested. The men were not dismissed for the reason mentioned in the last part of the question, but for gross breaches of discipline.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the notification was sent out to the papers on 13th April, three days after the report that a presentation was made by 670 constables of the Metropolitan Police out of comradeship to men whom they regarded as unjustly treated?
I do not see what this has to do with the question on the Paper.
Naval Action in Adriatic
(by Private Notice) asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will give the House further details of the losses sustained in the Adriatic last week, and what action the Admiralty proposes to take?
All the facts then in the possession of the Admiralty were made public in the official communication which appeared in the Press on Saturday morning last. On Saturday we issued a notice giving the list of casualties. We have now received these further messages, which I am sure the House will be glad to hear read: Copy of telegram addressed to the First Sea Lord by Admiral Corsi, the Italian Minister of Marine:
"I convey to you my warmest admiration for the way in which H.M.S. 'Dartmouth,' fighting against superior forces, nobly upheld the finest tradition of the British Navy."
Copy of telegram received by the First Sea Lord from Admiral Thaon di Revel, the Commander-in-Chief of the Italian Naval Forces:
"Please express Chief Naval Staff, Admiral Jellicoe, my hearty congratulations for brilliant action fought by H.M.S. 'Dartmouth' which, although torpedoed, was able to proceed safely to port."
Does the Admiralty propose to institute any inquiry into this incident?
I cannot answer that question. A full detailed report, of course, will be forwarded to us from the Rear-Admiral Commanding the British Adriatic Squadron, and that we await.
Had the people on the spot information that the raid was coming, and why was there not proper defence for the drifters?
The hon. and gallant Gentleman should give notice of that question.
Member for Longford, South
(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in view of the inherent urgency of matters of Parliamentary privilege, and the importance of obtaining all the relevant facts before the House comes to a decision in a particular case, whether he will have the hon. Member for South Longford brought from Lewes to London for the purpose of communicating to colleagues acting for him facts known only to himself, and for consultation with them, before his case comes up for further consideration by the House?
I see no sufficient reason for transferring the hon. Member to a London prison. Facilities would be provided, if desired, for enabling his colleagues to communicate with him in Lewes Prison.
Will the Leader of the House inform us whether and when the documents set out on the Order Paper to-day by me will be produced? [No answer was given.] In view of the extraordinary treatment of an urgent matter of this kind, I think you and the House will allow that I am entitled to go into the facts somewhat.
We went into the facts last week in the House.
You promised another occasion.
I did not, indeed! I said I would take time to consider the case which the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Healy) alluded to—the case of Mitchell. I have looked into that, and have come clearly to the decision that the case was not raised as a matter of privi- lege, as I told the hon. Member just now, but found a place amongst the ordinary Orders of the Day.
But in the matter of privilege we had not the other day the important fact which has arisen to-day that, although we followed the precedent of the case of 1875, the corresponding documents have not been produced and the Government have given no explanation of that fact.
They are not required in this case. If the hon. Member will look up the case he will find it was this—that Mr. Mitchell was returned unopposed. A doubt arose as to whether or not he was qualified to sit, and, in order to solve that doubt the Government put down a Motion, and carried it, for an address for a return of the order under which he was taken into custody. Subsequently, when the order was produced, it was discovered that he was not entitled to sit, and thereupon the House issued a new writ for the seat. On this occasion there was a contested election. In a case of that sort the House would not move but would leave it to the defeated candidate to present his petition in the ordinary course, and if the election judge found that the hon. Member was not entitled to sit, he would of course, declare the election void. If, on the other hand, he found that he was entitled to sit, he would so find, and there would be an end of it.
The House was under the distinct impression the other day that this matter would come up for further consideration. More relevant facts have arisen since then. You suggested the other day, Mr. Speaker, that the House had no jurisdiction unless the election took place before the imprisonment. I respectfully submit that the detention of a Member of this House constitutes an offence and a breach of privilege.
I have already pointed out that the hon. Member has no grounds for that assumption. There is no question of any sort or kind to support him in that view.
I want to bring to your notice a few important relevant facts, one of which is—
I have already held that the hon. Member has no primâ facie case with regard to a breach of privilege.
If you bear with me for a moment—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] I asked you the other day whether there was any precedent for refusing to treat as a matter of privilege the detention of a Member of this House imprisoned before his election. You did not answer that question directly, but I understood you to say that you would take time to look into precedents. I now respectfully ask whether you have found in the precedents any case in which a Member of this House has been detained in prison under an order of a Court, held in secret, at a time when the right to a writ of habeas corpus was suspended? If you have not found a case, then I submit that the case of the hon. Member for South Longford forms a new category, and therefore requires a new decision and a new precedent, and privilege being urgent, I desire the permission of the House to raise this question here and now.
I cannot give the hon. Member that permission. He has made out no primâ facie case whatever in regard to privilege. Of course, it is for the House to decide whether a breach of privilege has been committed or not, but it is for me to decide whether any hon. Member has made out a primâ facie case which he can bring before the House. The hon. Member has not made out such a case.
Department of Agriculture, Ireland (Employes' Wages)
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) if he will state the wages paid to labourers, gardeners, and other employés in his Department in Ireland; if he will state the wages of those similarly employed in England; if he is aware that labourers and gardeners in the Botanic Gardens, Dublin, are paid 10s. per week less than men similarly employed in Kew Gardens, London; and if he will see that employés in his Department in Ireland will receive equal pay for equal work with England?
The wages paid by the Department of Agriculture to labourers, gardeners, etc., vary according to the rates prevailing in the districts where they are employed. I am informed it is not a fact that the employés at the Botanic Gardens, Glasnevin, receive 10s. a week less than corresponding employés at Kew Gardens.
Appointment and Dismissal of Teachers
asked the President of the Board of Education whether, in cases where the Board of Education is satisfied that a teacher is, on moral grounds, unsuited for that position, the Board has any power of refusing or revoking the certificate or otherwise controlling the appointment or employment of such teacher; and, if not, whether the Board will consider the advisability of acquiring such power?
The Board have power to withdraw or suspend the recognition, for the purposes of their various Regulations, of a school teacher whose misconduct has rendered him or her unfit for employment in that capacity, or, in the last resort, to withdraw their recognition of a school which continues to employ such a teacher.
Workhouse Teachers (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary whether he has been memorialised by workhouse teachers from Donegal to Cork and from Wexford to Mayo, praying that the Government may see its way to include workhouse teachers in any Grant which may be voted for the betterment of the national teachers of Ireland; and can he say what the Government is prepared to do in the matter?
The only general resolution the Local Government Board have received in connection with this matter is one passed by the Baltinglass Board of Guardians claiming a Grant for education equivalent to a corresponding Grant in Great Britain. Workhouse teachers are in a different category from national school teachers The salaries of the workhouse teachers are paid from the Poor Law funds and not by the State, and Grants in aid of these salaries are made out of the Local Taxation (Ireland) Account. In addition to salaries, workhouse teachers are allowed apartments, rations, fuel, and light, or money value in lieu thereof. On the other hand, the national school teachers of Ireland are paid out of money voted by Parliament, and they do not enjoy any additional allowances similar to those obtained by the workhouse teachers.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the claims of these workhouse teachers when dealing with the whole question?
Certainly, they will not be forgotten.
Dublin Metropolitan Police
asked the Chief Secretary what duty is at present being performed by Sergeant English, 11F, Dublin Metropolitan Police; whether this sergeant is fitted to perform any police duty, in view of the state of his health; and whether this sergeant was employed as aliens' officer, after an order had been issued by the Chief Commissioner that this duty was to be discharged by constables?
Sergeant English is engaged in the supervision of aliens in his division and in duties connected with motor traffic. He is recovering from an illness, but competent to perform these duties, and there is no order of the Commissioner of Police which prevents his doing so. I think it is not in the interest of the Dublin Metropolitan Police that elaborate inquiries as to the work of members of the force, which involve no question of principle, should be raised in the House of Commons.
Are we to understand that it is not in the interests of the officers of the Metropolitan Police that the right hon. Gentleman should answer this question, and will he have an inquiry into the treatment of the constables of the Metropolitan Police, and he will then learn the degree of dissatisfaction that exists therein?
asked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that Constable D. Brady, No. 124C, Dublin Metropolitan Police, was assaulted by a soldier named Lamb in Talbot Street, but succeeded in arresting and bringing him to Store Street Station, where he made a charge of wanton assault; is he aware that Station-Sergeant Winters, Inspector Purcell, and Superintendent Bannon declined to enter the charge; whether he is aware that on the 17th April, 1917, Inspector Purcell collected a crowd round him in Sheriff Street by shouting and abusing Constable Brady while on duty about 11 a.m. and stated that the constable was spending his time looking at his (the inspector's) head and feet in a contemptuous manner instead of discharging his duty; if he is aware that Inspector Purcell is continually mimicking Constable Brady's provincial accent, that he reported him for looking at his head and feet, and that the Chief Commissioner fined him 10s.; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
The constable referred to brought to the police station a wounded soldier who had been acting in an excited manner, but as he declined to charge him with assault no charge was entered. I am told the statement as to Inspector Purcell is unfounded. I do not propose to make any statements with regard to the other suggestions in this question. If any officer has a grievance he must raise it himself in the manner provided by the regulations which govern the force.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the information upon which his reply is based is entirely incorrect, and that if an inquiry is held the records of the books will disclose this information?
When the officer makes his complaint it will be dealt with.
Ballinasloe Rural District Council
asked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that the Local Government Board for Ireland have refused to reply to the resolution of the Ballinasloe (No.1) Rural District Council, passed on the 28th April last, calling for a sworn inquiry as to what has become of the £167 unexpended balance of a loan due on the Clonfert new road; and if he will state on what grounds the Board refused to either reply or grant the inquiry asked for?
The Local Government Board have been in correspondence with the Ballinasloe (No. 1) Rural District Council and the Galway County Council on the subject of the road referred to, and a statement from the acting secretary of the county council dealing at length with the expenditure on the road was sent to the rural district council for their information on the 17th instant. In the opinion of the county surveyor, the unexpended balance of a loan for the Clonfert road, amounting to £167, was insufficient to complete the work, as he estimated it would take £1,000, and fresh proposals would have to be made in regard to the full sum required.
Government of Ireland
Proposed Convention
Prime Minister's Statement
I beg to move, "That this House do now adjourn."
Successive British Ministers have striven to effect a settlement of the Irish Question. Hitherto all have failed.
Let them clear out, and it will be settled.
Various proposals made from time to time by successive Ministries have failed to secure acceptance. There are many reasons for this, but I do not intend to examine those reasons, as I am very anxious to avoid anything in the nature of unnecessary controversy. I certainly do not propose to examine the reasons why hon. Members did not accept the latest proposals made by the Government. But there is one reason which is common to them all, and I cannot help thinking, after witnessing repeated failures by successive Governments to solve this question, that this is probably the dominant reason—they were all proposals emanating, not from the country chiefly concerned, but from British Governments. There is, therefore, always a taint of suspicion—I might say, perhaps, a flavour of distrust—which has prejudiced fair judgment on their inherent qualities. The Government have, therefore, decided to invite Irishmen to put forward their own proposals for the government of their country. If I may once more apply the quotation which was so effectively used by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Waterford (Mr. Redmond): well-meaning statesmen who have attempted to solve the Irish problem. And besides, responsibility awakes reason.
Therefore, we propose that Ireland should try her own hand at hammering out an instrument of government for her own people. This experiment has succeeded in other parts of the British Empire. It succeeded in Canada; it succeeded in Australia, and it succeeded in South Africa. Of course, no analogy of this kind is complete, but still it is sufficiently complete to demonstrate that equally refractory problems yield to goodwill and common sense. In Canada and in South Africa you had a conflict of races, and at least in one of them a bitter conflict of creeds. In South Africa the banners of the struggling races had only quite recently been steeped in the blood of their sons, and yet goodwill and common sense triumphed there. What was accomplished in South Africa, in Australia, and in Canada I cannot help believing is achievable in Ireland.
I want to know—
4.0 P.M
The hon. Gentleman is not entitled to interrupt the Prime Minister.
On a point of Order. Allow me to ask what is the matter before the House?
The Motion for the Adjournment.
The Government, therefore, propose to summon immediately, on behalf of the Crown, a Convention of representative Irishmen in Ireland, to submit to the British Government, the British Parliament, a constitution for the future government of Ireland within the Empire. I should like to say one or two words first of all about the constitution of the Convention which we propose to summon. It must be representative of all leading interests, classes, creeds, and phases of thought in Ireland. Not a Convention merely of political parties, although they necessarily must be represented, and they must all be represented—the followers of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Waterford (Mr. John Redmond), the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. W. O'Brien), the Ulster Unionists, the Southern Unionists, and I hope also the Sinn Feiners as well. But in the main the view of the Government is that it ought to consist of representatives of the local governing bodies, of the churches, of the trade unions, of the commercial interests, of educational interests; in fact, a real representation of Irish life and activity in all their leading aspects. In so far as it is possible, we shall invite delegates to be chosen by the bodies which they represent. Where that is impossible—and I can quite understand that there may be cases where it will be desirable to have Irish interests represented which might not be chosen by the other categories to which I have been referring—other means will be taken to secure that every element of Irish opinion is present. It is suggested that the Chairman should be nominated by the Crown, and that the reference should be the terms of the Government letter proposing the Convention. I will read them so that there shall be no mistake.
I want to make this quite clear—by the mere fact of going to the Convention can be assumed to be pledged to the acceptance or the rejection of any particular proposal or method for the government of Ireland.
The next question is, What will happen should Irishmen prove, as I confidently believe they will, that they possess the statesmanlike qualities which enabled Canadians, Australians, and South Africans under similar conditions to reach a practicable agreement? It is obviously too much to expect of human nature that every individual in so varied an assembly can be brought to complete agreement. There are unreasonable people even in Ireland, but the Government are prepared to say this, that if substantial agreement should be reached as to the character and scope of the Constitution framed by the Convention for the future government of Ireland within the Empire they will accept the responsibility for taking all the necessary steps to enable the Imperial Parliament to give legislative effect to the conclusions of the Convention. But perhaps I ought to safeguard the Treasury. Irishmen have a knack of becoming wonderfully unanimous, as I know from experience as Chancellor of the Exchequer, whenever there is any question of making a demand upon the Imperial Exchequer. Now, I cannot imagine Great Britain rejecting an agreement through niggardliness, but there the British Treasury must itself have a word to say as to the settlement—
Is it when we are spending our own money? We do not want your money!
I can only promise on behalf of the Government that, should the Convention happily come to an agreement, we will not forget that restitution and reparation should begin at home. Now may I make another proposal in reference to this Convention? I sincerely hope and I believe that if it is to be given a reasonable chance of success it must be held with closed doors. The American States framed their Constitution with closed doors. So did Canada; so did South Africa. I hope that there will be no publication, authorised or unauthorised, of its proceedings until its conclusions are arrived at, because there could be nothing more fatal than any unauthorised paragraphs suggesting that one person or another was taking certain lines which were a betrayal of some interest or other. It would create a poisonous atmosphere which, I think, would be fatal to the success of the Convention. We propose to take steps as soon as practicable. There will be a great deal of consideration and discussion as to the basis of representation, and as to the bodies who shall nominate, but there will be no undue delay. In fact, we have been considering the matter already, and we hope to be able to come to a definite decision in a very short time. The moment we do so the invitations will be issued, and I am sure that the feeling of this House will be one of a general desire that this Convention should solve the problem which has baffled the ingenuity and the good will of so many Ministers for generations in this country.
I entreat the House of Commons to believe that nothing but pressing war considerations would have induced us to take up the settlement of so formidable a topic in the middle of the prosecution of this great War. A settlement, in our judgment, will materially help the successful conclusion of this War. When we are engaged in a desperate struggle, a life and death struggle, we do not want a rankling, festering quarrel on our hands. It irritates, distracts, weakens. Evidence accumulates from many quarters as to the importance, from the war point of view, of getting this controversy settled in order to win the good will and co-operation of the Irish race throughout the world. The Prime Minister of Australia, who has won such a conspicuous personal triumph in the recent elections, has never ceased during the past few months to urge this consideration upon this Government and upon its predecessor, from the point of view of the successful conduct of the War. Irishmen have a passionate love of liberty, and we want it ranged on the side of the Allies in this world struggle for freedom, instead of having it torn by conflicting appeals. As the fight proceeds we realise more and more that we shall need all our strength to win a triumph worthy of the sacrifices which we are making. The Empire cannot afford uncured sores that sap its vigour. The entire strength of Britain and the wholehearted support of Ireland as well are essential to victory. For that reason I appeal to Irishmen of all faiths, political and religious, and I appeal especially to the patriotic spirit of Ulster to help by healing.
I am glad to think that my task this afternoon is a comparatively simple one, and one that I can discharge by speaking for a very few moments. I rejoice in the fact that the Prime Minister recognised that the last attempt which he made, in the first portion of his letter to me, at an immediate settlement of this question by the Government, has failed. The fact that he has so recognised that, relieves me from the necessity of entering upon a discussion of acutely controversial subjects—a discussion which could do no possible good, and might, possibly, exasperate and increase the difficulties which, God knows, are too large as they stand at this moment. I therefore do not propose to say anything about the first proposal in the letter of the right hon. Gentleman, or of the reasons why I regarded it as impossible of acceptance by us. Putting that, therefore, upon one side, we stand in an extraordinary and unprecedented position on the Irish question, this afternoon. Four unsuccessful attempts at immediate settlement have been made by three successive Governments within the last two years. The first was made in 1914, when the Government proposed their scheme in what is known as the Amending Bill. That failed. The next attempt was made at the Buckingham Palace conference. That failed. The next Government, what was called the Coalition Government, at this time last year, made another attempt. That failed. Now this Government has made a fourth attempt, and that also has failed. The proposal that we are now considering is entirely different. It is not a proposal of a settlement of these difficulties at all; it is a proposal of an entirely different character. For the first time, I believe, in her history, Ireland herself has been asked, practically, to settle these problems for herself, and this Government—and this consideration naturally has weighed greatly with myself and my colleagues—this Government, consisting of representatives of every English Party in this country, with what I believe will prove to be a practically unanimous House of Commons behind it, with what I believe is a practically unanimous Press in this country behind it, with what I believe is a practically unanimous public opinion in this country behind it, has proposed not to put forward a scheme of settlement themselves—having failed four times in two years—but to ask Irishmen themselves to come together and draft a constitution for their country.
That proposal clearly carries with it the implied obligation—as it did in the case of Canada, Australia, and South Africa practically only the other day—that the decision Ireland arrives at this country will be only too glad to carry into effect. That is a proposal which, in my view, no Irishmen and no section of Irishmen can with any show of reason refuse, and I feel sure that on consideration, every section of my fellow countrymen will agree to come into this proposal. It would I think speak badly for the spirit of statesmanship and patriotism on the part of any Irishman, or any set of Irishmen, if they refused to meet in conference and convention their own fellow countrymen, to see whether an end cannot be put to the miseries and the dangers of the present situation. Therefore, I take the liberty of saying, although I know the difficulties that will present themselves to this section or that section, this party or that party, that I not only hope, but I take it for granted, that all sections of Irishmen, without exception, will, on consideration, feel it their duty to come in and meet their fellow countrymen for this purpose.
But there are some, as the Prime Minister has recognised, preliminary points which have got to be considered and settled. This assembly must be a free assembly in the real sense of the word, and it must be a representative assembly. What do I mean when I say a free assembly? I echo the words of the Prime Minister, and would, if it were possible, desire to emphasise them, that it must be an assembly where every man will come in perfectly free to put forward his own views, his own schemes, and his own plans. Nothing must be shut out. No plan of any section can be shut out: Men will come into that assembly with preconceived ideas: they will be quite entitled to do so, and they must be entitled to put those ideas forward. It must be a free assembly in the sense that no proposal put forward by any man, or section of men, is to be ruled out, but that every proposal, every plan, that can be put forward, must be open to discussion. That, apparently, is the plain decision of the Government, and I heartily approve of it. It must not only be a free assembly, but it must be a representative assembly. I listened with great anxiety, and I may say with great pleasure, to the statement of the Prime Minister upon this subject. Every class, creed, and interest in Ireland must be fully and adequately represented in that assembly. To assemble a body that would simply be a body of politicians, would be foolish and it would be fatal. In my opinion, the assembly ought to consist, in the main, of the classes mentioned by the Prime Minister. The county councils of Ireland should be represented, the corporations, and mayors of cities and towns in Ireland should be represented, chambers of commerce, trade councils, the various Churches, the Irish peers—I hope the Irish peers will be given representation—the universities, the teaching bodies, the learned professions, and, of course, in due proportion, the various political parties. But let me say, on the question of the representation of the purely political parties and bodies, that the representation, in my judgment, should be strictly limited. For example, I would make no claim whatever that the United Irish League, which is the miltant official organisation of the Irish party, should have any representation at all, and I would say the same would probably be wise of other purely political organisations and societies. With reference to the Irish party itself, what I would like to see would be a limited representation, a very limited representation, of that party, and I would like to see an equally large representation of the Ulster Unionist party. Of course, the hon. Member for Cork and his Friends must also have what they consider full and adequate representation.
I heard the statement of the right hon. Gentleman with pleasure, that he thought the Sinn Fein organisation ought to have, as I will say, a generous representation upon this body. So anxious am I that no wreckers, mere wreckers, should go on that body—I do not believe any men would go on as wreckers, but any men who would be regarded by their opponents as going on it as wreckers—that, on the question of personalities, I would be very glad, if there are protago- nists on one side or the other, who, during the last twenty or thirty years or more, have been engaged in this struggle, and who—there have been faults on both sides—have done things and said things which have left bitter memories, I should be very glad that such men should be left off. If there were any feeling that I am such a man myself, I would be only too happy and willing to stand down—[HON. MEMBERS:"No, No!")—if by doing so I could promote harmony. I have not attempted an exhaustive list, but let me add that I think I understood, from one phrase which is not a definite phrase, of the Prime Minister, that he had it in his mind that in addition to elected representatives from such bodies as we have been considering, there should be also something in the nature of a nominated element. If that is his idea, I entirely approve of it. I am in favour of a small nominated element for two reasons. First of all, to make sure that individuals, as he said, who might not happen to be elected, but who ought to be on such a body, would find a place there. Secondly, let me say, I would welcome a nominated element from this point of view also: That nominated element might be used by the Government still further to increase the representation of what used to be called the Unionist party in Ireland. From what I have said I think the House will gather pretty clearly what my view is. I desire a full and fair representation of every class, creed, party and interest, with this exception, that I desire most heartily to see the Unionists in that assembly with a larger representation than they would be entitled to by the test of the mere proportionate numbers that they make up in the community.
The right hon. Gentleman told us that the Chairman would be nominated by the Crown. I see no other conceivable course. It is the proper course, and I do sincerely hope that there may be found for this purpose some great outstanding statesman, some man of outstanding ability and of proved experience, and of undoubted impartiality—because everybody knows how much the success of a gathering of this kind will depend upon the executive capacity, the firmness, the impartiality and the experience of its President. Let me impress on the Government one other consideration. No time must be lost in this matter. I dare say the Prime Minister would be inclined to agree with me, that dilatoriness had a great deal to do, perhaps most to do, with many of the failures of the Government towards Ireland in the past. If the impression goes abroad that the right hon. Gentleman does not mean business in this affair, and if there is going to be any delay for this purpose or for that purpose, believe me this scheme will die just like the other schemes that have been put forward. I beg of him, therefore, not to lose a single hour, and I would be intensely disappointed, and so I believe would be the public, if he is not able to decide on his classes and constitution and issue his invitations before the House rises for the Whitsuntide Recess. If these lines are followed, let me say for myself, although I know I lay myself open perhaps to some ridicule as too sanguine a man, I have some assured hope that the result may be blessed for Ireland and for the Empire. The recent developments have been for me and for my Friends naturally in the nature of bitter disappointment. The life of a politician, especially the life of an Irish politician, is one long series of postponements and compromises and disappointments and disillusions. As we grow old, and this, of course, bears in upon me, we feel our ideals growing dimmer and more blurred, and perhaps many of them disappearing one by one. One of the greatest of our Irish poets said: sing that Heaven can send to our country, and there is no personal sacrifice I would not be willing to give in the effort to secure it. Therefore, it is with all my heart I pray that when the Convention assembles, as I hope it speedily may, that it will be animated by a true spirit of conciliation and of toleration amongst brother Irishmen, and that its deliberations may be guided by such a spirit of wisdom, moderation and patriotism as will prove to the world once and for all Ireland does possess those qualities which entitle her and which qualify her for the arts of self-government.
I should like in the first place to express the pleasure which I feel in common with every other Member of this House at seeing the hon. and learned Member for Waterford (Mr. Redmond) once more in his accustomed place. I confess my satisfaction would have been even greater if the hon. and learned Member had been able to announce a policy on behalf of his party which would offer a reasonable prospect of agreement on the matter which we are now discussing. The hon. and learned Member has not stated the reasons which led him and his party to reject, with something like contempt, the carefully considered proposals of the Government, and which led them to declare that they are "irreconcilably opposed" to the scheme and that any measure based upon it would meet with their "vigorous opposition." I do not propose to suggest the reasons which influenced the hon. and learned Member in making that reply, because to my mind the real motive of the Nationalist party, and I am bound to say it, is to be found in the hope that they will be able to force Ulster into a Home Rule scheme against her will. They believe, at all events, as it appears to me, that by accepting the alternative of a Convention, they will be able to bring such pressure to bear upon Ulster that she will not be able to resist being drawn into the Home Rule net. In other words, they have deliberately refused to follow the only path by which they could ever hope to win Ulster. It is not compromise they ask from us: it is surrender. I can assure the House that it is my desire to avoid saying anything that could excite party animosity, or increase the difficulties of the situation, but it is my duty to state on behalf of the Ulster Unionists that we cannot and we will not be driven into a Home Rule Parliament. We rely absolutely upon the pledges which have been given by the Prime Minister and by his predecessor, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Fife (Mr. Asquith), that we shall not be coerced. That promise was inherent to the scheme of settlement which was suggested in the letter of the Prime Minister.
That arrangement, as the House is aware, would provide for the exclusion of the six counties until such time as they might be willing to come in, at the same time setting up machinery for dealing with interests common to all parts of Ireland. With regard to this scheme the point I would like to emphasise is that it is not one that Ulster would have spontaneously have sought, nor is it one any Ulster Unionist could regard with enthusiasm. That, of course, would be equally true of any policy which tampered with the Union of Ireland with Great Britain. On that question we have not modified in the slightest degree the conviction we have always held, that Home Rule would endanger the security of the Empire and subvert the best interests both of Ireland and the United Kingdom. I may add that everything that has occurred in the last three years has only strengthened our conviction. If, then, we were to accept the scheme proposed by the Prime Minister, it would only be because in the present emergency and for the sake of national unity we recognised the duty of making every sacrifice which could reasonably be demanded of us. We proved last year, we proved in July last, that we were prepared to make great concessions in order to facilitate a settlement. We then agreed that if the six counties were excluded, were definitely excluded, we would not oppose Home Rule being set up by the rest of Ireland. Let me remind the House that that agreement involved the exclusion, the surrender of three Ulster counties, and the sacrifice which was voluntarily made by the Unionists in those counties deserves the fullest recognition. The new proposals of the Government would involve still further concessions from us, and the House will understand that I am not in a position to pledge the people of Ulster to agree to them without their consent. The people of Ulster are a democratic community, and they possess in the Ulster Unionist Council a thoroughly representative organisation. All that we, their representatives in this House, can do is to lay the Government proposals before them and take their judgment upon them. There were features in the original proposal contained in the Prime Minister's letter which, I am sure, the Council in Belfast would only have accepted with reluctance. But, as I stated in my letter to the Prime Minister, we are prepared to submit the proposal to our people and recommend it for careful consideration. I may add with confidence that, in giving that careful consideration, the Ulster people will be guided by the same patriotic motives that have always inspired their political action. It must be apparent to the House, in view of the decision of the Nationalist party contained in their letter to the Prime Minister, that there is apparently very little prospect of any settlement on the lines of the first proposal of the Government's. The question arises, does the alternative suggestion offer any better prospect of success? The proposal is, in the words of the Prime Minister, which he has just read to the House, to assemble sion; but upon this matter of the definite exclusion of the six counties from the Home Rule Act I should mislead the House if I were to intimate that there is the slightest prospect of any change in the attitude of the Ulster people; and it is for this reason that I cannot, and I am sorry to say it, feel sanguine that a Convention which will bring together all the conflicting elements in Ireland will accomplish the purpose so eloquently defined in the last paragraph of the Prime Minister's letter. My fear is that the result of such a Convention will accentuate rather than to compose existing differences, but if the Government think otherwise my colleagues and I will certainly not take the responsibility of closing the door upon the experiment. We will lay the matter before the people whom we represent, and we will abide by their judgment. I will only add that whatever views the Ulster people may take of this proposal, they are confident that, in their determination to maintain their full rights of citizenship in the United Kingdom, they will receive the sympathy and support of the vast majority of the people of this country.
The proposals of the Prime Minister were contained in two watertight compartments. The first, which had for its basis the severance of six Irish counties from the body of Ireland, is one which, of course, we admit of no answer except an immediate and unqualified negative on the part of the Irish people. You may abuse Longford as much as you like, but Longford has shot the fox. Longford has killed partition so far as Nationalist Ireland is concerned. The alternative plan which is now put forward—the plan of referring to Irishmen the drafting of a constitution for Ireland—is one which, if it had only been adopted six or seven years ago by the Government, would almost of a certainty have led to a happy settlement long ago. This offer, even now at the half-past eleventh hour, is one which no Irishman in this House ought to dismiss without very grave and anxious consideration. The hon. Baronet, the Leader of the Ulster party, has unfortunately made it only too plain that the first proposal of the Prime Minister, to which no previous speaker made the smallest allusion, remains the crux of the situation in Ulster. That being so, unless we are to yield again to the easy optimism and the childlike trustfulness which has been the ruin of the Home Rule cause, we are bound to accept that fact; but if you are ever to understand what forces you are really dealing with in Ireland, as to which certainly I must say you are deplorably ignorant, you cannot expect us to forget the attempt which the Government's predecessors made last year to force an elaborate system of partition upon the people of Ireland. That project was persisted in, notwithstanding the most earnest remonstrances by some of us. When the late Prime Minister went over to Ireland after the Dublin rising—it is a pity he waited until after the Dublin rising—it was made perfectly clear to him what our position was, and it was this: Any amount of concession which would unite Ireland—partition, either temporary or permanent, never. But the right hon. Gentleman persisted in the attempt and failed, and the representatives of Ireland who acted with him were driven from the field by a storm of public fury more universal than anything I have ever witnessed in Ireland. You had scarcely a single man in Ireland with you, North or South, except the place hunters, and they very quickly took to their heels. That experience occurred only eight or nine months ago, and yet here we have the Prime Minister and the Government coming up once more to present to us, no doubt in a slightly more gilded form, the same nostrum of partition which was rejected as a burning insult a few months ago by, practically speaking, every honest man of the Irish race. The new proposal, like the old proposal, is in its essence partition. Its essence is a renewal of the old intolerable insult that Ireland is not one nation, but two. Whether our country is to be cut up and mutilated by what is called, in the language of the butchers, the clean cut, or by county option, the only result would be—we have to consider it as well as the friends of the hon. Baronet above the Gangway—the only result would be to split Ireland asunder as surely as if the Prime Minister's proposal was that we should fight a new battle of the Boyne. We had no difficulty four years ago, just as we have no difficulty now, in telling you that the Irish nation will never assent to any proposal of the kind, temporary or permanent, so long as grass grows and water runs. I know your difficulties. Unhappily, the speech of the hon. Baronet may seem to make them at this stage almost insurmountable, but those difficulties are chiefly due to your own feebleness and the double dealing of the late Home Rule Government. They were never able to make up their own minds either to conciliate Ulster while it was still possible, or, on the other hand, to enforce their own law under the Parliament Act. We will hear plenty of complaints now of the speech of the hon. Baronet, but where is the use of complaining? If he now takes his stand upon his six counties, with the knowledge that he and his Friends can never be compelled to obey the law like other people, whose fault is that? The Home Rule Government, and unhappily their Irish supporters, first offered these gentlemen four counties, and then advanced their bid to six, and you passed a so-called Home Rule Bill in this House with the public stipulation that it was never to be put into force without an amending Act, which would have repealed it in its most vital part. You passed it, further, subject to a solemn assurance by the Home Rule Prime Minister that the notion that Ulster would ever be compelled to obey this statute was unthinkable—to my mind a monstrously unconstitutional doctrine.
What is the first principle of all democratic government, and having considered that what was the common doctrine that was applied? In every party except our own, which was a 5.0 P.M. small camp, they were not attacked. How can you be surprised that now the Ulster men take you at your own word? You never offered them a concession when they were still unarmed, and when most of them, many of them even in this House, were still sufficiently amenable to reason. Neither did you attempt to dispute their right to arm in order to continually bid defiance to your Parliament Act, with arms in their hands. There was nothing that occurred in Dublin in Easter week that would not have occurred in Belfast upon a very much larger scale if you had only attempted to enforce the law. I sincerely regret to have to urge it, but it is your own fault. It is your own fault, and unhappily it is the fault of five-sixths of Ireland's own representatives, is that miserable collapse of Parliamentarism which is responsible for the Dublin rising, which is responsible for the South Longford Election and the North Roscommon Election, which is responsible for the contempt and hatred of Parliamentary methods which has undoubtedly taken possession of a large portion of Ireland. I wish to make some observations about the one hope that now remains, the fact of the Government's alternative plan. I suppose that there is no man in this House who can hint with anything approaching pleasure that the last word has been spoken in this matter by the reconciliation proposal which has been brought so marvellously forward already. For my part, perhaps I may be allowed to say that the Home Rule settlement by the consent of all parties and of all persuasions of my countrymen has been the object, I can truly say the one and only object of my political life, during a long course of years, the only hope that can endure me to allowing myself to remain for twenty-four hours longer in it. It would be affectation to deny that this alternative plan might well make the ears of some of us tingle with satisfaction, because the Government have at last begun to find out the one and only way out of the Irish difficulty is bringing us nearer to those principles of conference, conciliation, and consent which we have been preaching for the last six years to deaf ears in this Parliament. Our unforgivable sin is that we were in division, but let that pass. Undoubtedly the declaration of the Prime Minister on behalf of his Government means that there ought to be left to Irishmen the settlement of their own legislative and fiscal future. It is one of the most enormously important announcements that was ever made in this House. It is a renewal and a completion of the historic statement of Mr. Wyndham in the same sense in 1902 which put an end to the agrarian war in Ireland.
I only desire to qualify by one or two alterations my while-hearted-approval of the general principle outlined by the Prime Minister. My first remark is one which deals with what, after all, is the gravamen of the whole thing, namely, the practical procedure for the carrying out of this scheme, and that you will find to be a matter of the most vital importance which is not to be disposed of by rosy speeches in this House. It is of the most vital importance if the Government mean business—if they, as I trust, do make and are making an honest attempt of settlement and not merely playing to the American gallery. The Prime Minister's speech has made it clear that what he calls an Irish Convention is to consist of a large body of men. I venture to warn him and the House that any such arrangement even where the mass of the Ulster people, as I believe they will, might take a friendly view of it. This arrangement would instantly involve you in almost insuperable difficulties, as to the selection or as to the election of the members, in such a way that whatever happens the cry would be raised on one side or the other that it was a packed Convention, and that is a name of very fragrant memory in Ireland. We have an instance in the county councils and corporations and local bodies in Ireland which were elected six years ago, and which have no longer any mandate from their constituencies, and I venture to say they feel that they are not any longer able to represent the people of Ireland. So you would find it all along the line. You would have practically the same difficulty of selection or election on the Convention as at a General Election, even after you had it. I am sorry to have to point out these things, but there is no use attempting to conceal them. Even supposing that you had selection of that character you would have no end of hot-headed partisans rushing in with particular plans or fads of their own, and you would find it impossible, even in a reasonable space of time, to reach what you really want, namely, a prompt, consistent, and practical agreement. The "Times" this morning deals with the analogy of which the Prime Minister—the analogy of the case of the more phlegmatic people of South Afica. That analogy is a hopelessly illusory one—almost as illusory as the suggestion that General Smuts was to preside over an Irish Convention. You cannot hope for any agreement of this kind except from a small body of men, and that success will have to depend not upon the personality of the men, but upon the agreement being of such a character as would recommend itself to the over whelming sense of the community.
I hope that the Prime Minister has made it clear that the mandate of the Convention will be quite separate from the first portion of his letter, that the alternative plan was not to be carried in connection with the partition views in the first part; otherwise, of course, all chances of settlement would vanish. Up to the last moment my Friends and myself have urged in prominent quarters, as we have done for the past four or five years, that it was not in this House but in Ireland that the foundations of Irish settlement should be laid. But we warned you that all our suggestions were based upon our absolute conviction that, however a conference might, of course in courtesy, discuss any proposals as to partition, as far as most of the Irish people are concerned partition is, let the consequences be what they may, inadmissible and impossible. What we suggested the Government should do was to begin by inviting a conference of a small number of Irishmen in Ireland. I entirely agree with the hon. and learned Member for Waterford (Mr. Redmond) that it should not at all necessarily be composed of the leaders of any of the existing parties or sections. Quite contrary to that; and I might go further, but I am afraid it is not the Irish people but the leaders of all the existing parties and sections in Ireland who are chiefly responsible for all this. I make no exception. I admit that the present situation in Ireland is one of chaos, and no man, literally no politician, is at the present moment in a position to answer for the conduct of the Irish people; but there would be no difficulty in hitting upon the names of a dozen Irishmen of the right stamp, men of broad-mindedness, of generosity of character, of toleration wide enough to embrace every section of their countrymen, every politician section from the most moderate to the most extreme, and if you would only assemble a dozen such men round a friendly council table they could be depended upon not to separate in this great crisis without some concrete and national agreement on some such non-partitionist and federalist lines as I have again and again indicated in this House and out of it.
Let me add that there would be a better chance of an agreement between all classes of Irishmen, both North and south, to further a conference were the existing Act on the Statute Book, which has really become a bitter laughing-stock, put to one side. The second suggestion that we put forward was a supposition that you did get agreement by this small Irish representative conference and submitted it to the Imperial War Cabinet—as it was then—comprising the Premiers of the Dominions Overseas. That suggestion might now be substituted and sent to the Hybrid Committee of an Imperial character, which the Prime Minister contemplated after his Bill reached Second Reading, under the presidency of a man of the type of Mr. Speaker—if now even such a second man was to be found. All the better, too, if he invited the attendance of a representative of the United States, which must now, sooner or later, have a voice in this matter—and better now in that conference than at the Peace Conference. Once you have secured an Irish agreement, then the democratic thing would be to lay it frankly before the whole Irish people, through a Referendum, and then by all means place upon the Irish people the responsibility for rejecting or accepting it. If, as I am very sure, the responsibility was accepted, and there followed universal acceptance, the relief would be felt by every substantial Irishman in the country, and not least by the great bulk of even the Protestant and Dissenting community in the South of Ireland. Let the Government then do what the Home Rule Government ought to have done five or six years ago; let them publicly adopt that agreement as their own; let them publicly announce that, if necessary, they will go to the country and will invoke the sovereign authority of the electorate. Then should any mere minority of irrational irresponsibles on either side still attempt to pluck away—[Hon. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] When I say mere irrational minority, of course, I do not by that mean the bulk of the great mass of the Unionist population in Ireland, nor, of course, do I mean any other bulk. For instance, to force partition in any shape or form on Ireland would be dealing, not with an irrational minority, but practically the whole of the Irish race of 15,000,000 or 20,000,000 of people. You would very soon find yourselves up against the rock of Irish nationality against which the whole force of England has spent itself and forced itself in vain during many years. What I want the House to mark is this: that you have not tried a single one of the things that I have mentioned. You have not taken the Irish people into consultation. You have never taken the British electorate into consultation. You have offered no concession to the Unionists of the North, except one, and that was taken by their own hands. If this matter be not settled it will be an abrogation of democratical government in favour of the right of rebellion, whether those concerned be Covenanters or Sinn Feiners. If the Government's first proposal were now to pass through this House you would simply be extending the area of insurrection to Derry, Tyrone, and Inniskillen. I do not deny—nobody except a Mark Tapley would deny—that even such a small conference as I have proposed might fail to produce any general Irish agreement; but to let one golden opportunity after another slip through your hands is tragic. If only six or seven years ago the Government had produced their alternative plan, and if the Irish parties, Catholics and Protestants, had only assembled there harmoniously, all these troubles might long ago have been most blessedly composed, and the whole course of the War might have been different.
It may be now too late for the conference idea. It may be too late, but the fact is that you have never tried it. It as astounding fact, but fact it is, and the Prime Minister's own letter has confessed it—and no matter how you may fail you can never at the worst reach a more humiliating position than you occupy today. Before the nations of the world you stand confessing you have incurred obligations to Ireland which you are in honour bound to discharge, and cannot discharge! I do not yet altogether give up the hope that the Government, which had the grit to tackle all the might of Germany unflinchingly, may no longer stand shivering before two opposite sets of extremists beyond the Irish Sea. I had hoped to find in the speech of the Prime Minister—which I am afraid rather lacked the usual magnetic attraction—some little evidence of that undoubted fearlessness and high purpose that alone can pluck any Irish settlement out of the dangers in which miserable, blundering politicians have thrown it. If you break down this time—and I pray you not to deceive yourselves—if you break down this time you will not kill the Irish cause, but you will kill any reasonable hope in our time of reconstructing the constitutional movement upon honest lines. You will kill all Irish belief in this House and of any party in it. You will practically set up rebellion as the only arbiter left, whether for Covenanter or Sinn Feiner in Irish affairs. You will make Parliamentary methods even more justly detested and despised than they are at the present time by the young men of Ireland. You will force the Irish people, sorely against their will, to turn away their eyes altogether from this House to the International Peace Congress. I regret to think that their hopes may be directed perhaps to that quite hopeless mirage. At all events, you will have left them no alternative except to haunt your path at the Peace Congress and to join all the other small nations of Europe in a final appeal for freedom to European and American humanity and democracy.
My right hon. Friend addressed his appeal primarily—and, I think, properly—to the representatives of Ireland. I am sure, however, he will agree with me that this is not a matter in which the representatives of Great Britain are free from responsibility, nor can they be expected to be silent. Yet I think it was right and proper, before we expressed any opinion of our own, that we should first hear what the accredited leaders and spokesmen of the various forms and schools of Irish opinion had to say. Some expressions have been used in the two speeches to which we have last listened—the speech of the hon. Baronet who leads the Ulster party, and still more perhaps in the speech of the hon. Member for Cork—whom, I gather from one of his concluding sentences, regards himself as standing midway between the two sets of Irish extremists—some expressions, I say, have been used which might for a moment inspire discouragement as to the prospects of the Irish Convention. Yet I hope and believe that we may take it as a general result of what they have said that there is no party in Ireland which is prepared to take the responsibility of repudiating the suggestion. That suggestion was accepted whole-heartedly by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Waterford (Mr. John Redmond). The hon. Baronet behind me (Sir John Lonsdale) did not feel himself in a position or to have the authority for the moment to give his assent until he had submitted the matter for consideration to the Unionist Council in Ulster. I hope, however, that I may take it from what he said that when he and his colleagues here go before that council, they will not go there to discourage the suggestion; indeed, that they may go finding themselves able to commend it to the acceptance of those to whom they are responsible, and to whom, as my hon. Friend very truly said, they must refer a matter of this importance before they find themselves able to give a final answer. My hon. Friend the Member for Cork (Mr. W. O'Brien), after an exordium in which he denounced the alternative suggestion that the Government had not put forward, gave a most lurid picture of the misdoings of not only British, but Irish statesmanship in this matter during the course of the last generation. In his conclusion, however, he was, I gather, prepared to accept in spirit and principle the suggestion of the conference, and even now to claim that he was its original author!
I, of course, accept the general principle of the Prime Minister's proposal. My only objection to it is that, so far as it deals with a large assembly called a Convention, he is doing the right thing in the utterly wrong way.
I do not say my hon. Friend accepted the proposal without criticism, or without suggestion of an alternative or a better way. He accepted it in principle and spirit. There we agree. Then I think we have proceeded a considerable distance along the road. There is, at any rate, from no section of Irish opinion as represented in this House any dissent from the proposal which the Government have put forward. There are difficulties—practical difficulties—of the most formidable kind which no one—I am sure not even the Prime Minister himself —would for a moment deny. The question of size, to which the hon. Member for Cork referred; the question as to the basis of representation of the various interests concerned; the question as to the mode in which, when that basis of representation has been settled, you are to select persons who are to be representatives; the question of the chairmanship, as to which my right hon. Friend, though he alluded to it, made no definite announcement—these are all most important matters, and upon their wise settlement the prospects of the success of the Convention must very largely depend. But, of course, it would be premature for us to-day, until we have the proposal in a more concrete form, to discuss these, which are, after all, matters of method, machinery and detail. The important thing—and for that purpose alone I have risen as a British Member—is that we should realise that, so far as we are able to discover, Irish opinion is not hostile to the suggestion. A large body of Irish opinion heartily embraces it. For my part, and, as far as I can see, for my political Friends, I say we heartily endorse it. It is quite true, as my right hon. Friend has said, that a number of what, I think, he called well-meaning statesmen —amongst whom, I suppose, he includes Mr. Gladstone and myself—and himself—endeavoured from time to time, as he said, with honesty, and he went so far as to say with ingenuity—at any rate, with honesty—during the lifetime of a generation to bring about a settlement of this secular problem. We must agree that we have failed, because it is essential, as we all see—as we all now see, at any rate—that the solution should be one that commends itself to Irish opinion and Irish sentiment.
Under those conditions I am heartily glad that His Majesty's Government have not—I will not say persisted—but have not pressed in any way the specific proposals in regard to the exclusion of the Ulster counties which form the subject of the first part of my right hon. Friend's letter. It was quite obvious to him, as to everyone else that, unless that proposal met with general acceptance in Ireland, it was not the least use pressing it forward in this House or outside. The alternative —and the only alternative with all our previous and disappointing past experience —is to see if we cannot secure among Irishmen themselves, sitting in their own country, representing all shades, if it be possible, of opinion in that country, something in the nature, at any rate, of the basis of a general agreement. If that fails, well then, Heaven help us! We shall have to admit that we, who all over the world have solved problems similar in character, and not less difficult than this, are so wanting in the resources of statesmanship that we cannot settle it here at our own doors, where it is most vital both to our own interests and to our honour. I cannot, and I will not, take such a desponding, indeed, such a desperate view, and I do earnestly commend, not only to my own fellow-countrymen—who, I know, are prepared whole-heartedly to accept it—but I do, as one who for thirty years has devoted a large part of his political activities to the cause of Ireland, venture strongly to urge—and I say this even to my own opponents who represent Ulster, not less than I say it to the Nationalists—as a friend of Ireland, I do earnestly commend to them the acceptance of this proposal, which offers the best, and, it may be, the only chance. History, as I have said before, seldom gives you these opportunities, and it never repeats them. It may be the only chance of our relieving ourselves from a burden which—I will not speak in regard to the conduct of the War, about which we are happily at one—is both a discredit to our honour, and a real impairment of our moral and political authority in the councils of the world.
I did not intend to take any part in this discussion, but I think it is necessary at the outset that, before organisations are summoned to consider a vital question as to the acceptance of the offer of His Majesty's Government, we should, at all events, to-day have no misconceptions whatsoever. If we start off with misconceptions or wrong ideas, everything will come to naught in the settlement of the Irish question. I have been associated with this question for, I suppose, thirty-five years. I have no hesitation in saying that I have not in the silghtest degree modified any opinion I have ever had, although I would modify it if I saw any reason for doing so, and I should not be ashamed, that the best solution of Irish government is the maintenance of the union between Britain and Ireland. I have fought that hard—I hope honourably—for thirty-five years, and when last year, owing to the exigencies of the War, I was asked in the interests of the then Government to reconsider that position, and assent to certain modifications, I did so, and those who acted with me in Ireland did so, not because they modified their views, but they thought the exigencies of the State asked them as patriots, and as real, true British citizens, to yield some of their opinions, and to try if it were possible that Ireland might come from North to South more wholeheartedly into the prosecution of the War. I consider, at all events, that those with whom I act in Ireland did make on that occasion great sacrifices. However, for reasons which, I think, with the hon. and learned Member for Waterford, it is not necessary now to explore—it really does no good going back into the controversies of the past—that all came to nothing. I very much regretted it. I thought very likely, if the hon. and learned Member for Waterford had been able at that time to persuade his friends to accept that solution, we might be very much forwarder now in the general union of the whole of Ireland. That is my belief. I believe the moment you shake hands over anything as a step towards more general union, you go much further than you ever thought you would by shaking hands. However, it was not to be.
Then came the attempt at settlement which has been put forward in the Prime Minister's letter. To that, of course, as a member of the Government I was a party. May I say to those who imagine it is a very easy thing to be a member of the Government, that there are embarrassing questions which arise from time to time, which sometimes, I think, are very unfortunate, and apt to divert you from the particular work you are trying to carry out for the country? But I feel there again bound, although these proposals, I think, went a long way further towards unity, to agree to them. I thought, after all, instead of drawing in, or being compelled to go into an Irish Parliament, where one section of the Parliament would go in in a surly, discontented, hostile way, feeling that, having done their best for the Empire, they were then betrayed—I thought to tell them that they should stand out until they had seen that it was to their advantage to come in, and at the same time create a general council which would bring all Irishmen together for Ireland's good, as I hope—I thought you were making there again a long advance, and an important advance, not merely towards the settlement of the question for the moment, but the very best advance towards an ultimate reunion for the whole of Ireland. That is rejected, but do let us be fair. Do not let the House imagine that they gain anything by always saying, "Oh, it is those Ulstermen; they are impossible!" So far from that being true, I venture to think that the only advances that have been made up to the present have been made by the Ulstermen. Whether the Unionist Council will accept the invitation or whether it will not, I am sure I do not know. Of one thing I am certain, that no threats will have the slightest effect upon them. Of that I feel perfectly sure, and all I can say as to my own position is, that whatever decision they take—and I hope they will take a wise one—I shall be with them to the end. I have not the least intention of deserting them in any way, for I value my honour far more than I value anything I could hold in the Government. They ought to approach the matter under no misapprehension. They ought to approach it with a full and clear knowledge of what is involved. I think my hon. Friend who is now leading the Ulster party, in his speech, if I may speak perfectly frankly, rather gave rise to the idea that he was under the impression that the question of the exclusion of part of Ireland, and under what conditions, was a matter, having regard to the letter of the hon. and learned Member for Waterford, which was to be ruled out at this Convention. I understand that no such thing is intended, for it was stated most specifically and most absolutely and clearly—and there must be no misunderstanding on the matter now—by the Prime Minister that every proposal of every description, every solution that anybody pleases to put forward, are to be received and are to be considered by this Convention. I was sorry the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. W. O'Brien) laid it down as an absolute impossibility that this solution could ever be accepted. Of course a great deal will depend upon the conditions attached to that solution, and I hope that even he does not really, in his own mind, rule it out as an absolute impossibility.
Let us, if we are to have a Convention, go there without having laid down anything whatsoever. Do you not see that if you lay down that it is impossible to settle with the exclusion of Ulster, Ulster people, when they come together, will have just as good a right as you to lay down that it is impossible to settle without the exclusion of Ulster? No, Sir, as I understand the proposition—and otherwise I would not have been a party to it—every man goes there free, with an honest desire, I hope, to do his best for his country and for the Empire. If you go on those terms I do not say that you will succeed, but if you go on any other terms you certainly will fail. For my part, I think the less that is said on the details of the question at the present moment, or upon the way in which this question will arise before the Convention which is to be summoned, the better. If the Convention is to be of any use it must be on the clear understanding I have indicated, and what is more, it ought to be entered upon without raising old passions. That is all I have to say, and heaven knows there is no man in the House more than myself who would be glad to see the question of Ireland settled.
I am sure everyone on these benches will recognise the spirit in which the right hon. Gentleman has approached this question, and I am glad to find myself in this matter in perfect agreement with him. The Irish party in accepting the proposal which has been adumbrated in the speech of the Prime Minister to-day has done so because they are now, as they have always been, anxious to have the Irish question settled. It would be very easy for me here in the House of Commons to-day to deliver a violent speech denouncing any and every proposal for the pacification of the motherland to which we are all of us intensely and passionately devoted, but I confess that I somewhat rubbed my eyes when I witnessed the spectacle of men who never raised a hand during the fight in which we were engaged in Ulster with the right hon. Gentleman opposite coming forward now and putting obstacles in the way. I believe if it is not a successful effort to pacify Ireland and bring her freedom, at all events it will be an honest attempt to bring about that solution. For the last five years I have been, perhaps unfortunately for myself, one of the most active figures in this Ulster contest, and I have endeavoured by moral suasion, and even by the organisation of an antidotal physical force, to meet the right hon. Gentleman. I confess that some of those who are now so violent in their fighting proclivities lent those of us in Ulster little support in the contest in which we were engaged. It would be easy for me to come down here and pander to the popular taste by turning down every honest attempt made to solve this problem. It would be a popular course to pursue, but I am not here to-day to court popularity of that kind. Last year I might have been cheered from every platform in Ireland if I had rejected the proposals of the Government. I believed then, and I believe still, that if those proposals had been accepted they would have brought us closer and closer together, and I believe they would ultimately have established the unity of all creeds and classes. If it is courageous to fight, there is something greater than physical courage, and it is moral courage, and the largest moral courage men can display is to realise, however much they may be misunderstood and calumniated, however heroes in times of peace may come forward to abuse them, that the only right thing for an honest man, as well as for a politician to do is that which in his conscience he believes to be right and true. [Laughter.] I do not know whether that form of political morality appeals to an assembly like the House of Commons, but one would think that it did not.
I agree with what has been said by the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty, but I want to dissent from one observation he has made, namely, that all the concessions have been made by the Ulster Unionists. What is our position? We have for forty years fought this battle on constitutional lines. During the last seven years two appeals have been made to the British electorate, and upon the question of Home Rule for Ireland alone the judgment of the British electorate was given. This matter passed through the vicissitudes of the Parliament Act, and was placed upon the Statute Book, and therefore we have got through the only constitutional and democratic tribunal that could determine the matter Home Rule for all Ireland. That is on the Statute Book, and I cannot understand how the right hon. Gentleman can take up the position that all the concessions have been made by the Ulster Unionists and that no concssions have been made by us. We have been most ready to recognise the difficulties of Ulster. We are anxious to bring the people of Ulster in. I believe myself that once it is made clear that Home Rule is an accomplished fact, and that the operation of self-government must take place in Ireland, the necessities of the situation will bring Ulster in, and therefore to avoid bloodshed, to prevent those wrangles and passions which have inspired all our controversies in Ireland in the past, and to secure some of those blessings of mutual understanding which will ultimately bring about harmony in Ireland, we consent to the proposal which has been made.
I am as much opposed to partition as anyone in this House. I have fought against it in every way, and I am as bitterly and violently opposed to it to-day as ever I was. I think it is absolutely unnatural, especially in a country like Ireland. To have one system of government in one part of Ireland and in another part a long distance away to have an entirely different system is unnatural and impossible. I think, however, to take up the position that we ought to treat with scorn and contumely a proposal by which Irishmen of all creeds and classes, representative of every interest, should not come together is to admit that there is no solution of this problem at all. Those of us who are Irish Nationalists, intense Irish Nationalists, who have pointed out in this House time and time again that the whole trouble of the Irish people has been that Englishmen have tried to handle this question which they do not understand, take up the only genuine Irish position when we say that England's failure may be Ireland's success. At all events, Ireland ought to try her own hand in the hopeful prospect that she may be able to fashion a constitution which, while respecting the fears and prejudices of a section of our countrymen, and be able to mould a constitution in such a form as may ultimately have the approval of a united Ireland, and become a real and genuine partner for all the things which Ireland stands for. There is another reason why we should not reject this proposal. Will Ireland be in a worse position after the Conference than she was before? I say it is worth a trial. It is worth trying to arrive at some understanding and some arrangement. For my part, I welcome the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman, and I trust that all sections in the country will contribute their share to bring about that substantial agreement which will give to the nation self-government and a national Legislature that will satisfy the national aspirations of the Irish people.
Throughout the whole of this controversy in recent times the party with which I am associated has naturally connected itself with the idea of a democratic form of self-government in Ireland, in which the people who have that self-government should have the voice they desire. I welcome the right hon. Gentleman's pronouncement to-day not only from the point of view of Ireland itself, but also from the point of view of Great Britain. I especially wel- 6.0 P.M. come the announcement that it is proposed to call the Labour movement of Ireland into association with the Convention. There can be no doubt that in Ireland, as well as in this country, labour during the past few years has been making enormous strides forward, and there is now in Ireland a genuine and a growing labour movement, which I believe, if it is brought into association with the Government of the country and in this particular with the Convention, will prove, as it has proved in this country, a power of strength to the Government and a solidifying influence to the people whom it represents. I want to say how heartily I hope and how sincerely I desire that this Convention may meet with success. It seems to me, in spite of what has been said, that it holds out, for the first time in the history of this controversy, a reasonable chance of a settlement which will be truly national. I do not believe if it had been proposed earlier that it would have had the same chance of success. I believe it has a better chance now, because of the previous failure. We are really driven up against the position that we must have a solution of this problem, and it is now thrown back upon Irishmen to find that solution. I hope, as the result of the Prime Minister's appeal and of the appeal which I believe will be made from all parties and shades of opinion in this House, Ireland will herself set her own star and provide her own settlement, and I hope Britain will accept that solution, and that we shall see, as the result, a contented Ireland and a progressive British Empire.
I hope the House will now permit us to pass on to the next Order. I think there will be a general feeling that nothing could be gained by a further discussion, and there are so many possibilities of mischief in further debate that I sincerely trust that now, after the very full statements that have been made from various parts of the House, we may be permitted to pass on to the next Order of the Day. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
Engineers' Strike
Return of Men to Work
Before the Motion is withdrawn, I would like to ask the Prime Minister if he can make any statement as to the negotiations resulting in a settlement with the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, and as to the present position of affairs.
I am glad to have an early opportunity of giving to the House and to the country a full statement of the negotiations and the circumstances of the settlement arrived at with the engineers. With regard to the negotiations which led up to the immediate settlement, the facts are that on the initiative of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Munitions (Dr. Addison), who had been in close touch with the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, a conference was held with the Executive Council of the Society on Friday morning. Negotiations subsequently took place between the Executive and the unofficial strike conference, which resulted in a request that the Executive should represent their interests and arrange for an interview with the Minister the following morning, in order to give them an opportunity of stating their case. This interview was arranged late on Friday night with my right hon. Friend, and he met the Executive Council with the deputation on Saturday morning. My right hon. Friend, the Minister of Munitions, conducted the negotiations with the Executive Council, which resulted in an agreement, and I am sure the House will join with me in congratulating my right hon. Friend on the result, and upon the skill with which he conducted these negotiations. The agreement was signed by my right hon. Friend and the chairman of the Executive Council, and was made subject to the concurrence of the Government. The agreement was subsequently brought to me in the afternoon by my right hon. Friend, and I confirmed it on behalf of the Government, my right hon. Friends the Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. A. Henderson), the Minister of Labour (Mr. Hodge), and the Executive Council of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers being present. I may explain, with regard to the position of the country this morning, that it appears on the whole that there has been a resumption of work. In certain places, notably Leeds and Sheffield, further meetings have been held to decide whether the men will return, in view of the agreement arrived at in London. At Barrow a portion of the men are still on strike. That is the position at the present moment.
May I ask whether it is the intention of the Government not to prosecute the men who were arrested, because that would go a long way to allay the discontent.
I should not like to give an answer. My right hon. Friend the Attorney-General is considering that question, and I am not in a position to give an answer now.
Have any further arrests taken place since Saturday?
No further arrests have taken place.
Is not the trouble at Barrow caused by the fact that no announcement has been made that the prosecutions are going to be withdrawn?
Is it not a fact, as stated in the papers this morning, that the withdrawal of the prosecutions is an essential part of the agreement come to?
If my hon. Friend had read the terms of the agreement, he would see that is not the case.
Government of Ireland
The Prime Minister came to the House to-day for the purpose of submitting a proposal, which evidently had already been adopted by the leaders of parties in this House, as though he wanted to convince the public that it was entirely new and that he did not know what was going to be said. The proposal of the Prime Minister to call a Convention, when examined, is seen to be a trap for the Nationalists of Ireland. Of course, the Leader of the Ulster Unionists who created all this trouble, was well aware of what was going to be proposed, and he would not have consented to it at all as a member of the Government but for the fact that he and those incited by him in Ulster were to have their way if the Convention were ever held. The Prime Minister, in his short speech, meant to throw very little light on the constitution of the Convention, but he succeeded in throwing more than he wished or intended. This Convention is to be convened by time-expired Members of Parliament who have clung to office far beyond the time-limit imposed by Parliament at their own instance. It is to be composed also, it appears, of time-expired county and district councillors in Ireland, who are well known to be entirely out of sympathy with the present mind of Nationalist Ireland. They do not represent, except to a limited extent, the Ireland of the present day. The other members of this Convention are to be personally selected by the Government. The Prime Minister spoke of issuing invitations. What does the Prime Minister, or those advising him in this matter, know about who is trusted in Ireland and to Whom invitations should be sent, if the Convention is really to be what it is pretended to be. The invitations are to be sent with a view of keeping out men who ought to be there and of putting in men who ought not to be there.
If a real Convention were required the manhood of Ireland would be given power to elect representatives especially for the purpose. Such a convention selected by the manhood of Ireland would command respect, and its decisions might very well be adopted, but a Convention, summoned from London and selected by the leaders of parties who to-day have so disgusted the people of Ireland and have so lost touch and confidence with them that they dare not face a public meeting from end to end of Ireland, is essentially a packed convention, and neither the Prime Minister or his advisers need have any anxiety as to whether the people they chose to call Sinn Feiners will go into it or not. So far as those people are concerned the harmony of the Convention is in my opinion not in any danger of being disturbed. The Convention for all intents and purposes is to be a partition convention, and the vehemence with which some speakers have said that partition should not be considered there at all only proves that is the only proposition that will be considered with favour. This whole idea of a Convention to adopt a new constitution for Ireland without power to give it any legal effect is in reality the funeral dirge, or the funeral oration, of what is called the Home Rule Act now on the Statute-book. The Home Rule Act is so discredited in Ireland that, not to speak of partition at all, the attempt to enforce that Act to-day would arouse the scorn not only of Unionists but of Nationalists. The fact is that the real objection Ulster Unionists have to the Home Rule Act is its worthlessness and its danger to Ireland, especially as regards its financial provisions. Ireland wants Home Rule or it does not. If Ireland wants Home Rule, it wants to have full control of its own land and of its own money, full and exclusive power to administer its own resources, to levy, raise and disburse its own taxes and to legislate for every purpose within its own shores. If the Act on the Statute Book were of that character, the objection of Ulster Unionists would disappear to-morrow.
This Debate furnishes a fresh illustration of the unreality of the tinkering proposals of the Government in this House, through the Press, and otherwise. We are passing through a period of the most brazen dupery that has ever been practised, even in Ireland. Whoever dares to expose that dupery and remind the people of indisputable facts, is not challenged as to the correctness of his statements, because it is their correctness that his offence consists. He is first denounced as an enemy of Ireland by a Government Press pretending to be free and is then imprisoned or deported, without charge or trial, as the highest stroke of British statesmanship in Ireland in the 20th century. In all the elements of which this Convention is to be composed, no one on any side of the House has so far suggested the men of real power and real representative character, without whom the Convention would be a fraud and a deception—the Irishmen who are now in Lewes prison for their fidelity to Ireland. Are they to have a place in the Convention, and, if not, of what use is your Convention or why convene it at all? They are there in that prison for doing precisely the same thing which they, when in Ireland, had been urged to go to the continent and to countries with which they have no connection whatever. If to fight for the restoration of Belgium be a meritorious act, how comes it that to fight for the restoration of Ireland's independence is a crime and brings them to Lewes Prison? How has it arisen that Ireland owes any obligation to Belgium or to Serbia and not to herself? Whence does this obligation arise to Irishmen to leave their own country in bondage and go and free some distant, land? These men and the men deported from Ireland without any charge or trial at all have been torn away from their families, their business and their country, without being told for what, and this is by Englishmen whose boast has always been that no restraint must be put upon personal liberty unless the persons have been found guilty of some offence by due process of law.
Such victims as these, however, have some consolations. They have the most complete and absolute approval of their own consciences; they have the knowledge that they are suffering for a cause so noble and immortal that it has survived the wiles and power of far abler men than the present Government comprises; they have the comfort of knowing that we have reached a time and a temper of the Irish people when this method of stifling public opinion is the surest means of bringing the alien rule of Ireland to an end; they have the certainty, which un- broken experience gives, that the promises of full self-government, by which the Liberal party held office for many years and even the disgraceful travesty of self-government which, under that name, they have placed on the Statute Book, will be broken like the Treaty of Limerick, like the Renunciation Act of 1783, and like all the other promises and scraps of paper given by England in her moments of difficulty, to be betrayed as soon as the difficulty has passed away. The one thing that England may always be trusted to do is not to keep faith with Ireland longer than it suits her own purpose. The English Government, being in a chronic state of war with the Irish people, and that being a dangerous state at a time when England is at war with other people also, you are anxious now for a settlement of the Irish problem, not for Ireland's sake or for Ireland's benefit, but for your own. Of all the people in the world from whom you might select persons to undertake that task, you select your own statesmen, trained in the very practices and imbued with the very principles to which the existence of the problem is due. It is like selecting cut-throats to administer mercy and thieves to administer justice. On the same principle you select as persons to decide whether your proposals should be accepted by the Irish people or not, or what should be done with Ireland for your advantage, not the Irish people themselves nor anybody freely chosen by them, but renegade Irishmen, accomplices in your guilt, men who helped you to transform Ireland from the one bright spot into the one menacing prospect, men sent here to fight any and every English Government but who, instead of fighting, have become your hired tools against their own country—men who, having betrayed cause and people, are no longer trusted, and lead no one but a pro-English faction in Ireland.
If you doggedly persist in pursuing the ostrich policy of refusing to recognise facts, you must do so at your own peril. The fact of supreme importance which you refuse to recognise is that the insurrection in Easter week of 1916 has changed the relationship between Ireland and the English Government, and between Ireland and the Irish party, which has gone over to the English Government so radically and so permanently that you can never get back to the pre-insurrection relationship, and that it is vain to hope or strive to get back. Ireland can never forgive the man calling himself a leader of the Irish race at home and abroad who, in October, 1915, in an interview with a journalist, gave a hint to the English Government that the leaders of the Irish Volunteers should be shot. Ireland can never forgive the Government which, six months later, acting on that advice, shot those men, after they had laid down their arms and were prisoners of war in its hands. Ireland can never forgive this House for having, like demons, cheered the announcement of those executions on the 3rd May, 1916. Still less can Ireland ever forgive or forget the degraded and unnatural followers of their philandering leaders who disgraced themselves and Ireland in this House by joining in those demoniacal cheers. Ireland can never forgive the slanders, in which the Government and the Irish party joined, about German gold. The Irish problem existed before, and was sufficiently difficult. By your conduct at that time it was made for ever unsolvable by you. If the problem were an English problem, who, under Heaven, should settle it but the English people? If the problem were a French problem, who should settle it but the French people? The problem being an Irish problem, it can be settled only by Englishmen and their hired tools keeping clear of it, and leaving the Irish people to find a settlement for themselves. Let yourselves and your accomplices reject the leaders who have brought my country to the condition of a corpse, not dare to tamper with its integrity, not dare to tamper with its reviving vitality. With fifteen of the real public leaders illegally shot twelve months ago, with 130 Nationalists in penal servitude to-day by order of secret, and therefore illegal, courts-martial, and many banished from Ireland without any trial at all, with the right of public meeting abrogated, with a country ruled by the sword and the Censor under the authority of a time-expired Parliament, with a Press reduced to abject servility in the presence of these unconstitutional things, what right has anyone responsible for this situation to meddle with the settlement of a problem so created? Whom in Ireland can be criminal enough to pretend to represent? The people who justly despise and hate them or the police who protect them? Do they not know that Ireland's most urgent problem is to get rid of English Government and its Irish agents, their organisation, their Press, and all their ways and methods?
A settlement of the Irish problem can be reached quite easily and speedily by precisely the same course which would be pursued in any other country so circumstanced, namely, by withdrawing yourselves and the discredited leaders of both parties and leaving the people, North and South, to arrange terms among themselves. The settlement which they would come to would certainly not be partition. No Unionist wants partition any more than a Nationalist does. No Minister has been able to say that any representative body in Ireland has from first to last asked for partition. Nothing could be conceived more discreditable and injurious to Ireland and to every individual in Ireland than to have the country divided, nothing so false as to have an appearance of Irish approval given to the division of Ireland by means of party machinery. The real approval of the Irish people has not and never can be given to it. The spectacle of a so-called popular party concurring in the execution of the true leaders of the Irish people and in the penal servitude and deportation of others and then taking advantage of that absence and of their removal to force partition on an unwilling people with the aid of martial law is surely an object lesson which the most stupid can understand. In such sore straits were the discredited leaders for help from any quarter last summer when partition was adopted by them, that they sent emissaries to every camp and prison in England in which, by their connivance, Irish Nationalists were detained to seduce them by vague promises of personal freedom in return for consenting to the mutilation of their country. The suggestion, I am proud to say, was treated with the scorn it deserved. If Ireland is to be partitioned, the guilt of that crime must be left on the heads of the self-styled leaders and will not be shared by the people either North or South.
In these circumstances Ireland, like this country and like every other country at the present time, is entitled and bound to ask who are her enemies. Her enemies are those who have prevented her from exercising the functions of self-rule for years and still maintain their own rule over her, and all who assist and strengthen the hands of the foreign rulers; those who suppressed her indus- tries and trade for the benefit of England, and still by unfair means maintain that ill-gotten supremacy, and all who assist and strengthen the hands of the monopolists; those who, according to the report of their own financial experts, have cruelly overtaxed Ireland and refused to make restitution, and all who have doubled the excessive taxes for their own selfish war, and all who assist and strengthen the hands of the extortionists; those who have stripped Ireland of everything capable of being appropriated and ruined all but her spirit, and all who assist and strengthen the hands of the ruiners; those who have destroyed her population by sword and flame and gibbet and famine and coffin ships, and who still thin out the remainder by recruiting tactics; all who assist and strengthen their hands and the hands of the destroyers; those who desecrated her altars and wrecked her homes and who sill maintain the desecraters, and all who assist and strengthen the hands of these desecraters and wreckers; those who by force and guile deprived her of her vigorous young people and now by false pretences drain her still more, and all who assist and strengthen their hands in the draining; those who now plan the supreme treachery of partition and all who help or connive in that treachery; those who by bribes and patronage get one set of Irishmen to prey upon the rest by acting as recruiting agents, and all the bribers and recruiting agents; those who suggested the shooting of Ireland's best and bravest sons and cheered in this House when they were illegally shot and who still impudently pretend to lead the Nationalists whom they have betrayed. All these are Ireland's enemies. With all these Ireland, I think, is rightly at war, and her hands are sufficiently full and her resources too exhausted to permit her interfering in other people's wars.
All tyrants, whether individuals or bodies, or coalitions, or in nemine conglomerations, like the present Government—all such bodies acting tyrannically are cowards. We have all witnessed how one determined man was able to organise, drill, and arm the Ulster Volunteer Force, bully a strong Government and frustrate the work upon which this Imperial Parliament had spent three Sessions. We have witnessed later how the South Wales miners twice within a few weeks brought the Coalition Government of that day to its knees and made it swallow its emergency Proclamation. We need not discuss the merits of either of these events. What concerns us in Ireland far more is the lessons they convey that the age of resolutions is gone, and that action alone is respected and effective. Since the strongest British Government can be beaten by force, serving causes of doubtful merit, it can still more easily be beaten by defenders of an ancient nation demanding unquestionable rights and resisting intolerable wrongs, provided the nation is properly organised and determined. If the Welsh miners and other groups of British workers are ready any day, as is said, to imperil the British Empire on account of a few shillings more or less in their pockets, we have only to remember what the British Empire has done for Ireland and our duty to our country and to ourselves. We are not disposed to indulge in revenge, however justified; but we should be less than men if we did not remember that, as in the case of all other nations, the first duty of Irishmen is to Ireland. Till that duty has been successfully discharged we can owe no duty to any other country. It is for this doctrine and practice that our friends are now undergoing penal servitude and other forms of imprisonment as alien enemies. Every man with courage to speak the truth admits it, and the subsidised Press cannot prevent the world from seeing that the results of Imperialism in Ireland are dead sea fruits and desolation, that some change is absolutely necessary, and that hardly any change except partition could produce results worse than the present policy.
Imperialism, now called the wider patriotism, is not patriotism at all, but a commercial commodity, the negation of patriotism. An Irishman who adopts it is a mercenary and a traitor to Ireland. Imperialists do not realise the wide effect it has on young Irishmen to ask themselves whose country Ireland is. No young men in any country worthy of their country would have any hesitation in answering such a question. If that be so, if Ireland is the young Irishman's country, as to-day they believe it is, we are absolutely entitled to a home and a living in it in return for honest industry and good conduct. That is a universal law. Hitherto they have not clearly realised their absolute right, nor have they until now realised that they have also a power to enforce that right by making organised use of the means at their disposal, and that, too, without inflicting wrong or injury upon any human being. If the Imperial policy of scourging Ireland alone results, as it is doing, in uniting us in defence of Ireland alone, the game of Imperialism is up. Fidelity to Ireland alone, at any risk, is the only worthy course for Irishmen. At the present time we have this peculiar advantage, that it is more plainly than ever before the best course for every class of individual in Ireland, Unionist as well as Nationalist, and, therefore, the winning course. We are steadily recovering a grip of our own country, and we mean to hold it this time. The future is ours. That is to say, the future is Ireland's. The British Empire has no future. England itself may have a period of peace and happiness before it in the distant future, when its War debts are paid, if they ever are paid. At all events, its prospect is not enviable. As for the British Empire, for all intents and purposes its greatness came to an end in August, 1914. It could then have secured its indefinite continuance by an Act not of generosity but of tardy justice to Ireland, which would have been at the same time an act of the highest wisdom. It could have and should have let Ireland go wholly free, with the sovereign exclusive control of her own laws, resources, and affairs. There is nothing in that but what every nation of spirit claims as its inalienable right. There is nothing in it but what England claims for herself. On what ground—no one has ever told us—is Ireland not allowed to claim it, and to make the claim good? When the testing time came the Empire was guided by the advice of Imperialism in the opposite direction, with the consequence that Ireland, which might have been an added strength, is to-day in the fair way to becoming an instrument in the destruction of the Empire. Even now the best your statesmen are capable of offering in response to our national right to freedom, and in redemption of your pledges of full self-government, is a laughing-stock—Parliament for a fragment of Ireland! Possibly, as a result of the Convention now about to be summoned, your statesmen may be stupid enough and criminal enough to attempt to force this upon a country that will not have it, and to force it through while the best living Irishmen are in prison for being the best living Irishmen.
The Allies in the present War have evoked—and England especially has evoked for the purpose of this War—the principle of nationality. It is the duty of all honest people, and the vital duty of the small nations concerned, to see that that principle is duly recognised in the settlement after the war, and that there shall be no settlement without its due recognition. One thing the House may take as certain, and that is that Irishmen of to-day will not allow any set of Englishmen or any set of Imperialists, whether brought from Canada, Australia, South Africa, or anywhere else, to treat Ireland as a British domestic question. In treating Ireland in that way your Statesmen have had a free hand for too long, with fatal results. The men you call Sinn Feiners have raised the case of Ireland above that plane, and we are not going to let it slip back. So far behind are your Statesmen that they imagined we would beg for admission to your Imperial Conference. You found that we did nothing of the kind, and that we have no desire whatever to interfere in your own domestic affairs. The only Conference that Ireland is interested in is the International Peace Conference to follow the War. It is significant that both the Government and the Irish official supporters wish us to forget that Conference. That fact, in itself, corroborates our view that it is our duty, our interest, and our right to remember that Conference, and to see that our country is represented in it. In addition to our historical right of sovereignty, in addition to our present right of sovereignty and our determination to have it recognised, the hoisting of an independent flag and the maintaining of that flag afloat for a single day entitles a country to representation in an International Conference. Ireland's flag having been maintained afloat during Easter week of 1916, Ireland is thereby trebly entitled to representation. The elected representative bodies in Ireland are endorsing our claim and insisting upon our demands. It is in no sense a party project. Minor political distinctions are not involved in maintaining that there is such an entity as an Irish nation, and that it is entitled to distinct recognition in the international councils to settle the affairs of Europe on a civilised basis after the War.
The people who want to maintain the freedom of a nation must become worthy of it by cultivating manly discontent with the rags, the scabs, and the crumbs of pauperism and dependence. It must con- ceive and aim at worthy ends from its own standpoint, if it means when free to command respect by its achievements. It must not cut itself away from its own past, especially if rich as ours has been in civilisation, learning, and the arts of peace, progress, and happiness. It must, on the contrary, link up closely with the past and aim at its natural development, and to that end revive its language, literature, music, and national customs as a glorious heritage, the most powerful stimulus to its own people and the surest barrier against foreign gutter literature and demoralising importations. It must face the huge and urgent task of undoing England's work of destruction and iniquity in our country. It must repair the wreckage with which this rule has strewn our country from end to end. It must drain and foster the areas now submerged under water for want of arterial drainage, and many other works too extensive for individual or local effort. It must aim boldly at the commercial status to which Ireland's geographical position entitles it. It must develop our country's resources, revive, tend, and foster industrial life, and train morals, mind, and hand for the duties of life, and secure every member of the community in the enjoyment of the fruits of peaceful industry. The fact of unfettered freedom and the invigorating joy and pride of it would link us all together, north and south, Unionist and Nationalist, as never before, and inspire all with a buoyant hope and with the ability, courage, and perseverance to realise that hope within our own shores. Everything else worth having would be comprised in or would follow that. Mind and thought and action would be moved and guided by a grand impulse in a new direction, and the vices and consequences of prolonged slavery would vanish for ever. I submit that these are modest aims which ought to be attainable by peaceful means. If they are not so attainable there can be no pretence that we are constitutionally ruled. They will not be attained by a Convention summoned by English Ministers, even with the advice of Irish party renegades. To attain them is the manifest duty of all Irishmen by whatever means the obstinacy of our present rulers renders necessary.
I rise not for the purpose of prolonging this Debate but to give a flat contradiction to two statements made by the last speaker. Twice in the course of this Debate he alleged that during the announcement in this House of the shooting of certain Irishmen in Dublin last year, Irish Nationalist Members joined with British Members in the cheering of that incident. I give that statement, in the presence of the hon. Member, as calm but as unqualified a denial as it is possible to give it. I was in the House on the day on which he alleges the incident occurred, and I say that no such incident took place. I say further to the hon. Member that he must know it never took place, and the repeating of such a statement is a slander, a falsehood, and a thing which any Member who sat on these benches on that day must know to be untrue. I do not think there is any good purpose to be served by using any other phrases. I have expressed what I feel very keenly about these statements that have been made by the hon. Member. Most of his statements are taken at their proper value in this House, but in the country in Ireland people have been found who have been prepared to repeat statements which he has made in hole-and-corner places where there is no opportunity of denying them. The hon. Member has assumed the courage to-day of repeating the statement here. As one who was present on that lamentable occasion when the announcement was made, I give to the hon. Member's statement an unqualified contradiction, and I say that it is simply a falsehood.
I am entitled to answer this personal attack.
The hon. Member has occupied nearly an hour
Will you not allow me to give a personal explanation? I was here on the 3rd May, 1916. The Prime Minister announced the execution of the three first leaders of the volunteers. The vast mass of the House, except one small section on the other side below the Gangway, sprang to their feet and waved their handkerchiefs and cheered.
Oh, oh. Withdraw!
Among the loudest of those cheers—
rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
The Question is, "That the Question be now put."
A personal explanation.
Order, order!
On a personal explanation am I not entitled—
The hon. Member has been guilty of a statement which I can most decidedly deny.
Will you deny this, Mr. Speaker, this is a personal matter between you and me. I went round to your chair the following day. [Interrup- 7.0 P.M. tion.] Why are the cheers omitted from the OFFICIAL REPORT? They are omitted by your order, Mr. Speaker, because when I went round to your chair the following day and handed in a notice—[Interruption]—to ask you why were the loud cheers omitted, you sent an official messenger after me to tell me that I should not be allowed to put such a question.
I give the statement of the hon. Gentleman the most unqualified denial.
You suppressed the loud cheers from the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Question, "That the Question be now put," put, and agreed to.
Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put accordingly, and negatived.
Orders of the Day
Companies (Foreign Interests) Bill
Lords Amendments Considered.
TITLE.
An Act to prohibit the alteration, except with the consent of the Board of Trade, of Articles of Association or Regulations which restricts Foreign Interests in Companies.
Lords Amendment: At end of title insert the words," and for other purposes connected therewith."—Agreed to.
CLAUSE 1.— (Prohibition of Alteration of Articles Restricting Foreign Interests in Companies Except with Consent of Board of Trade.)
(1) Where any provision in the articles of association of a registered company is designed to restrict or limit, or has the effect of restricting or limiting, the proportions or amounts of the share capital of the company or of the voting power of the company which may be held or exercised by or on behalf of foreigners, or is otherwise designed to restrict, or has the effect of restricting, the interests of foreigners in the company or the control of the company by foreigners, an alteration of that provision shall not be of any effect, notwithstanding anything in any other Act, until it has received the written consent of the Board of Trade.
(2) The decision of the Board of Trade as to whether an alteration of a provision requires the consent of the Board under this Act or not shall be final and conclusive.
(3) This Act shall apply to any regulations or provisions in the nature of regulations affecting a company, not being a registered company, which can be altered by the company, in the same manner as it applies to the articles of association of a registered company.
(4) In this Act the expression "registered company" means a company as defined by the Companies (Consolidation) Act, 1908, and the expression "foreigners" includes any class of foreigners.
Lords Amendment: In Sub-section (1) leave out the words "proportions or amounts," and insert instead thereof the words "proportion or amount."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
Perhaps the Under-Secretary will give us some explanation as to these Amendments.
My hon. Friend will observe that most of these Amendments are of a drafting character and I do not think that a great deal of explanation is required. Lower down there is an Amendment to substitute the word "aliens" for "foreigners." I am advised that the word "foreigner" has not a precise meaning in law and it has been stated in another House that a person may be a foreigner but may be naturalised by domicile, residence, or allegiance. There is another Amendment, the effect of which is to exclude unincorporated companies from the operation of this Bill. I am advised that there is always some question as to what the word "company" exactly includes, and it has been suggested that this Bill is restricted to incorporated companies, and it might be held to apply to unincor- porated companies. Another Amendment makes it clear that "alien" includes any body corporate not incorporated in some part of His Majesty's Dominions and any class of aliens.
It will be observed that a new Clause has been added and it may be thought desirable at this stage to offer some explanation of that new Clause. The effect is to prevent a company evading the provisions of this Bill by going into liquidation either voluntarily or under an Order of the Court and then selling the business to a new company which would not contain the restrictive provision inserted in the articles of association of the original company, the purpose there being to evade the provisions of this legislation. Hon. Members are aware that under the Companies Acts it is always competent for a company to wind-up and reconstruct, and that is one of the points that are dealt with by this Bill. If hon. Members will follow the respective Sub-sections which I am submitting it will make the purpose quite clear to them. The first Sub-section provides that a resolution for the voluntary winding-up of a company shall not have effect unless the board authorises or ratifies it by written consent. If the Board of Trade was convinced that the company was going into liquidation in order to put an end to this undertaking altogether, then the Board of Trade would give its consent. If, on the other hand, it was thought that the company was going into liquidation in order to evade the restriction in the articles of association, then the Board would refuse its consent. The second Sub-section provides that the court which has jurisdiction to wind up the company may in its discretion refuse to make up a winding-up order. The third Sub-section shows how the discretion of the Board of Trade or the Court, as the case may be, is to be exercised. In the exercise of its discretion the Board of Trade or the Court is to be guided by the consideration whether the winding-up is with a view to the discontinuance of the undertaking or with a view to continuing the undertaking free from the restrictions or limitations contained in the articles of association. The fourth Sub-section provides that the Board of Trade in giving consent, or the Court in making a winding-up order, as the case may be, may impose such terms and conditions in giving effect to this Bill as it thinks fit. The Government are of opinion that this new Clause strengthens the Bill and confirms the purposes which were generally assented to by the House, and, therefore, we hope that the House generally will agree with the new Clause.
This particular Clause in the Bill does not apply to the general law.
It simply applies to the restricted number of companies dealt with in the original Act. It does not alter the general law.
May I ask whether the numerous Amendments adopted in the other House were proposed by the Government or proposed by other persons? If they were proposed by the Government they would indicate that this measure was not a well thought out complete measure when it left this House, and that the scheme was not by any means what it ought to be. The Amendment which the hon. Gentleman is about to accept dealing with the word "foreigners"—
We had better deal. with one Amendment at a time.
Question put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendments: In same Sub-section leave out the word "share" and leave out the word "of" ["of the"], and insert instead thereof the word "in."—Agreed to.
After the word "company" insert the words "or the control upon the board of the company."—Agreed to.
Leave out the word "foreigners" and insert instead thereof the word "aliens," and after the word "restrict" insert the words "or limit."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
My hon. Friend will remember that this particular Amendment was proposed from these benches when the Bill was in Committee of this House, and that he in his most scornful manner rejected it, and now that the other House has found wisdom in the substitution of the word "aliens" for "foreigners," my hon. Friend is about to accept it. How is it that he accepts an Amendment coming from the other House which he refused to accept in this House? What change in circumstances came about in the passage of the Bill from the one House to the other to alter his view?
I think that the reason why my hon. Friend has accepted this Amendment, and one of the things of which I hope the members of the Government will take note in view of their first reception of the Amendment of my hon. and learned Friend, is that the Amendment received much more respect from the Government in another place than in the House of Commons, and I hope, therefore, that they will avail themselves of his valuable services at an early date.
My hon. Friend has nothing to complain of in the acceptance of the Amendment. So far as I can see, there is very little difference between "foreigner" and "alien," and I thought that my hon. Friend might have given some stronger reason for the change in the Bill. I take it that this Bill generally deals with the firms who are able to contract themselves out of the Act passed some time ago. That was a weak Act, as my hon. Friend knows, and hundreds—would I be wrong in saying thousands—of people for whom we thought we were legislating at that time escaped by registering themselves as public companies; and I desire to know whether this is intended to apply to these companies who evaded the law by registering themselves as public companies?
My right hon. Friend is correct in his view. In reference to the substitution of the word "aliens" for "foreigners," I took note of what was said at the time, and on further consideration we felt not that there was any marked distinction between the words, because, like my right hon. Friend, I do not see that there is any marked difference between them, but the Government accepted the Amendment in the House of Lords, as the word "aliens" was considered more appropriate. Now that the Government have come into line with my hon. Friend I am sure that he and those generally associated with him must be gratified. Certainly, I never contemplated that I was guilty of a scornful rejection of any suggestion emanating from my hon. Friend. I can assure him that the matter was carefully considered, and that we thought that the suggested word was more appropriate.
What about the application of this Bill to the companies to which I have referred?
As I have said, the right hon. Gentleman is in substance quite correct.
Question put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendments agreed to: In same Sub-section after the word "restricting" ["restricting the interests"], insert the words "of limiting." After the word "interests," leave out the words "of foreigners," and insert instead thereof the words "of authority of aliens."
In the same Sub-section, after the word "by" ["control of the company by foreigners"], leave out the word foreigners, and insert instead thereof the word "aliens."
In Sub-section (3), leave out the word "a" ["affecting a company"], and insert instead thereof the words "an incorporated."
In Sub-section (4), after the words "defined by" ["a company as defined"], insert the words "Section two hundred and eighty-five of."
In the same Sub-section, leave out the words "'foreigners' includes any class of foreigners," and insert instead thereof the words "'alien' includes any body corporate not incorporated in some part of His Majesty's Dominions and any class of aliens."
After Clause 1, insert,
NEW CLAUSE.— (Provisions Applicable to Certain Companies.)
The following provisions shall apply to every company in whose articles of association is contained any provision such as mentioned in Section one (1) of this Act:
(1) A resolution for the voluntary winding-up of the company shall be of no effect unless the Board of Trade in its discretion authorises or ratifies it by a written consent.
(2) The Court which has jurisdiction to wind up the company may in its discretion refuse to make a winding-up order.
(3) In the exercise of its discretion the Board of Trade or the Court, as the case may be, shall be guided by the consideration whether the winding-up is bonâ fide with a view to the discontinuance of the undertaking or is with a view to continuing the undertaking free from any restrictions or limitations such as are mentioned in Section one (1) of this Act which are contained in the company's articles of association or any of such restrictions or limitations.
(4) The Board of Trade, in giving consent or the Court in making a winding-up order, as the case may be, may impose such terms or conditions for giving effect to this Act as it thinks fit.
New Clause agreed to.
Gaming Machines (Scotland) Bill
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. MACLEAN in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 1.— (Prohibition of Use in Shops, etc., of Machines or Mechanical Contrivances for the Purpose of Games, etc., Played for Prize or Stake.)
(1) It shall not be lawful to permit in any shop, office, room, or place, whether enclosed or not, the use of any machine or mechanical contrivance for the purpose of any game, sport, hazard, or competition played or participated in by persons resorting to such shop, office, room, or place in which game, sport, hazard, or competition any prize or stake in money or kind is awarded or forfeited contingently on the result of the operation of such machine or mechanical contrivance, whether such operation is automatic or not.
(2) Any person who being the owner, lessee, occupier, keeper, or person in charge of any shop, office, room, or place, or being the owner, lessee, or person in charge, or having control, of any such machine or mechanical contrivance, contravenes the provisions of this Section shall be guilty of an offence, and shall be liable on conviction by a Court of summary jurisdiction to a fine not exceeding twenty-five pounds or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months.
I beg to move, in Subsection (1), after the word "room" ["room, or place"], to insert the word "tramcar."
The Clause says it shall not be lawful to permit any sub-office, room, or place, whether enclosed or not, the use of any machine or mechanical contrivance for the purpose of any game, sport, hazard, or competition for any prize or stake in money. My Amendment is to add the word "tramcar." This is not a war measure; it is a measure which ought not to be before the House, and which has been set on foot by the corporations of Scotland, and particularly by the Corporation of Glasgow. The position of the Corporation of Glasgow is such that they of all others in Scotland should not institute a measure such as this, to put down a small form of gaming, while they themselves are engaging in an enormous lottery, with the aid of the machines on the tramcars, to bring in money. They have a machine in each tramcar for the punching of tickets, and at the end of the week a lottery takes place, and the ticket bearing the successful number receives a very substantial prize—infinitely greater in value than the prizes which are given in isolated shops, with which this Bill deals. The Government are seeking to put down these gaming machines as proposed by the Bill, while this particular lottery in Glasgow is allowed to go on. There ought not to be prosecution of the poor, while avoiding prosecution of the rich. The tact of the matter is that the poorer districts are to be deprived of this simple amusement, while the Corporation of Glasgow are to be permitted to do the same thing in a large and wholesale way. My Amendment has for its object the inclusion of tramcars in order to prevent this lottery on a large scale, at the same time that you seek to prevent lotteries in shops on a small scale.
I am afraid I cannot accept this Amendment. My hon. Friend has said that this is not a war measure. He said so on the Second Reading, and I endeavoured to answer his argument, and whether it was a good argument or not, inasmuch as the Bill received a Second Reading, I do not think I ought to pursue that subject further. My hon. Friend would appear to suggest that this is a Glasgow Corporation Bill, while that corporation themselves carry on a lottery in their own tramcars. I cannot say to my hon. and learned Friend too clearly that this is not a Glasgow Corporation Bill; it is a Bill supported by a very large number of local authorities up and down Scotland—school boards, town councils, and so forth—which have nothing whatever to do with the famous and historic city of Glasgow. It is a mere incident that one of the parties supporting the Bill happens to be the Corporation of Glasgow. Even if that were not so, I would point out that the Amendment, if adopted, would not achieve the purpose which my hon. and learned Friend desires. This measure applies to mechanical contrivances or machines used for gaming, but the machine to which he refers as being used in the tramcars of Glasgow is not in the least an example of the kind of machine to which this Bill refers. So that the Amendment, if introduced, would not achieve the purpose in view, and I do not see any justification for it. If accepted, it would very probably limit the meaning of the word "place," while on the other hand, the word "place" might very probably, if necessary, be taken to include tramcars. In these circumstances, as I know my hon. and learned Friend merely desires to pass a workmanlike Bill, and not to destroy its usefulness, I trust he will withdraw the Amendment.
I think part of the reply of the Secretary for Scotland is not quite adequate. After all, the Glasgow Corporation is one of the most important parties to the Bill, and surely it is a matter of some consequence that one of the promoters should be guilty of a practice which in principle is similar to those practices which are struck at by the Bill. I am not quite sure that my right hon. Friend is right in saying that this Amendment would not apply to the practice which is at present being followed on the tramcars in Glasgow. After all, there is a machine which is used in connection with the traffic, and, as my hon. and learned Friend points out, this gaming practice has now been introduced in Glasgow. My hon. and learned Friend perhaps might withdraw his Amendment if he received an assurance from the Secretary for Scotland that the Corporation of Glasgow would be prosecuted in the event of the continuance of this nefarious practice.
I join with my hon. Friends opposite in pressing the Secretary for Scotland to give us some more satisfactory assurance regarding Glasgow. I think the Committee is entitled to ask whether the right hon. Gentleman proposes to deal with this gambling transaction in the City of Glasgow or not. I am glad Scotland has been selected for the operation of this Bill in order to stop the gambling which is going on there just now with these gaming machines, and if the right hon. Gentleman does that, he will be doing a very fine piece of business. But that is not the only way in which gambling is carried on in Scotland, for my hon. and learned Friend has called attention to this extraordinary practice which is going on in the City of Glasgow, and which is thrust under the noses of everybody who goes to Glasgow. I confess it seems to me very extraordinary that Glasgow should be helping to promote this Bill while they they themselves have a lottery on their tramcar system. The Bill is framed to deal with one of the manifestations of the gambling spirit, while temptations to weak gambling human nature in Glasgow are left out of account. The Secretary for Scotland must take his courage a little bit more plainly in his hands than he has done in this Bill. He tells us that he is out against gambling, yet he declines to meet the Glasgow case where the gambling is quite as bad, quite as poisoning, quite as subversive of civic virtue as a mere penny in the slot game—putting in a penny to see whether it goes into a certain hole. I hope the Secretary for Scotland will accept the Amendment, and the consequential Amendment which will follow, if this one is carried.
I am very grateful to the Secretary for Scotland for having delayed the Committee Stage of this Bill so long. I remember that we asked him to delay the Committee stage in order that certain Amendments should be put down, and that we made that request to him in order to introduce, among other Amendments, an Amendment regarding machines which are not gambling machines—this Amendment definitely bringing forward the Glasgow Corporation Tramcars' latter system. I read my right hon. Friend's speech on the Second Reading of this Bill, in which he pointed out that the reason why the Bill was introduced was that it was found that money was being squandered, that children were being debauched, and that juvenile crime was being fostered. He further pointed out that he had been told that queues of young people could be found waiting for admission in order to pursue some form of gambling. My right hon. Friend knows Glasgow probably as well as any Member of the House. He knows that if he cares to look around Glasgow he will find the same kind of queues waiting to get on to the Glasgow tramcars. In fact, those queues have increased since the facilities for gambling have been provided by the Corporation in Glasgow, and people are refusing to travel by other means in Glasgow, and there is consequent unemployment among a large number of other people who were honestly making their living before the Corporation of Glasgow began this nefarious practice of gambling on their tramcars. Another argument which ought to impress the right hon. Gentleman is this. Like all of us who are very much interested in the provision of comforts for our troops at the front, I think he will have observed that the practice in the Glasgow tramcars arose out of a difficulty which they found in raising large sums of money. They found when they asked anybody on a Glasgow tramcar to take a ticket, as they did originally for that purpose, that they raised very little money. They were disappointed and in order to secure money to buy more comforts for a greater number of troops, the Glasgow Corporation deliberately began a system of gambling in their cars. My right hon. Friend introduces this Bill to put a stop to gambling. That is one of the reasons, and he made a speech in consonance with the views which we know he holds, and the high position that he occupies as Secretary for Scotland, and previously legal adviser. Are we to take it that this Government, among its other faults and failings, has descended so low that it approves of the introduction of gambling methods into the means of transit in our great cities, in order to provide that which is provided in every other great town except Glasgow without any facilities or methods of gambling at all. Can my right hon. Friend tell of any other city in the United Kingdom which is unable to raise the money to provide comforts for the troops without gambling? He will understand, therefore, what is the reason for pushing this Amendment. I hope my hon. and learned Friend will take it to a Division, as it is really the most important Amendment we could get in connection with this Bill, and I think the House ought to pronounce its view upon it.
This Bill proposes to attack gaming machines, which I personally am against. I am frankly against the large number of gaming machines which exist in so many shops in different parts of our great cities, and I think they are doing harm. If this Bill is to put an end to those, my right hon. Friend cannot ask us to deny ourselves the opportunity of preventing the great Scottish corporation from becoming immoral. That is the real issue, as to whether upon the passage of this Bill my right hon. Friend is going to permit this immorality on the part of the Glasgow Corporation, or to allow those of us who have respect for Scottish customs, to compel Glasgow to be moral, by insisting that in their tramcars they shall not have any facilities for what my hon. Friend means to put an end to in other directions. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman must see the weight of that argument, and from his close connection with the United Free Church in Scotland and with the wee Free Church in his own constituency, he must recognise the strong feeling there is in Scotland against any such practice. I should like to understand from him what has induced him to rank himself on the side of this immoral practice pursued by the gambling Corporation of Glasgow. This is really a serious situation, because it involves the probity of the entire Government. In the absence of the other Members of the Government there is imposed on the right hon. Gentleman the clear duty of offering to the House a far better defence for this downward step which he is taking. If the rest of the Government wake up and find that led by the Secretary for Scotland they have descended from the high position in which they were left before this Bill came to the Committee stage, then I tremble for the fate of my right hon. Friend. I implore him as an old friend and an old colleague and a fellow Scotsman to accept the Amendment of my hon. and learned Friend, and to encourage the people of Glasgow out of their own generosity to provide those things which at the present moment they are providing by methods of gambling.
I do not often listen to Scottish Debates, but I am glad I have come in on this occasion. I do not often intervene in Scottish discussions, but I am very proud to take my stand in the attack which has been so admirably led upon immoral Scotsmen. I must say that this Debate has come as a great revelation to me. I hope it will be a revolution, too, by an acceptance of the Amendment, because I really am alarmed for the Empire when I hear that the Corporation of Glasgow is promoting gambling. Listening to the speech of the Secretary for Scotland, it seemed to me that he was afraid of something, whether of the Corporation of Glasgow, and to tell them straight out that they must stop their nefarious ways, I do not know, or is it that he is afraid of the rising moral indignation of his own countrymen. I think that is quite possible. I think he has got very good reason to think that the country of which he is such a distinguished citizen, even in time of war, would realise that a question like this is of real importance to the moral fibre and character of the nation. If he realises that I think he will be afraid of the course he has taken. I hope before long to visit Scotland, and I do not know whether I ought to go to Glasgow, thrusting myself into the way of temptation, as I should do if I went. I really hope when I do go that I shall be able to tell my friends there that I helped to rid them of this nefarious open gambling instituted by the Corporation of the great city of Glasgow. If I am able to say that I had some little part in converting one of the best Scotchmen in public life, the Secretary for Scotland, on this matter, I shall be very proud of the fact.
I do not know whether as a mere Englishman I may intervene in this Debate. I think my hon. Friend who has just spoken gave a conclusive argument to induce the right hon. Gentleman to change his decision. My hon. Friend told us he proposes to visit Glasgow. I am quite sure that the right hon. Gentleman would not wish that my hon. Friend should be exposed to the temptation which the city of Glasgow now puts in the way of every Englishman who visits their city. Therefore, for the sake of the moralness of my hon. Friend, I am quite sure the Secretary for Scotland will reconsider his decision and accept the Amendment. I think the reasons the Secretary for Scotland gave for refusing to accept the Amendment were singularly weak. He said that the addition of these words would not affect the Bill, and pointed out that the machine by which this gamble or lottery is carried on is not a machine within the meaning of the Bill. I am no lawyer, but it seems to me that the punch bell and ticket register to which my hon. Friend referred might be regarded under these circumstances as a gambling machine within the meaning of this Bill. It is not necessary that a machine should be a fixed machine, and therefore I see no reason from the point of view of the right hon. Gentleman's argument why this Amendment should not be accepted. Seven or eight speeches have been made, and with the exception of that of the right hon. Gentleman, all in support of the Amendment. I am quite sure the right hon. Gentleman would not wish to go counter to the unanimous feeling of the Committee, and I hope he will rise and announce that he intends to bow to that unanimous feeling.
I am exceedingly sorry to disappoint my hon. Friend and other hon. Members. I listened with great care to all the speeches, and endeavoured to weigh the arguments used in favour of the proposition they supported. I am bound to say I am not convinced that I am wrong and that they are right, and I will tell the Committee exactly why. The purpose of this Bill is to put down not gambling in general, but to put down a certain kind of machine which has been held in England to be an illegal and gambling machine, but which in Scotland has been held under the law of Scotland to be legal. I thought it right, looking to the arguments in support of this Bill, to end that state of affairs. With regard to the Glasgow Corporation lottery, as it has been called, I am not intimately informed of the particular procedure, but it has yet to be ascertained whether the law of Scotland, without any Amendment at all, can or cannot deal with that lottery. If it is a lottery, according to the law of Scotland, then I have no doubt it will be dealt with.
Can that be done by anybody initiating a prosecution?
Hon. Members seem rather to have confused the position. I have no power to initiate a prosecution now, or to direct a prosecution. That is the function of the Lord Advocate, whose post I at one time occupied.
My question was can a private individual initiate an action?
No. As my hon. Friend probably knows, prosecutions are public, at the instance, in the Sheriff Court, of the Procurator-fiscal or of the Lord Advocate in more important cases. It has yet to be demonstrated that this, if it be a lottery carried on by the Glasgow Corporation, cannot be dealt with under the law as it exists. I am not offering any opinion as to whether it is or as to whether it is not a lottery. I am not concerned with that. All I say is that the difference between that case and the case with which I am dealing is that the Courts are powerless to deal with the latter. They have held, under the existing law, that these machines are legal, and, therefore, the legislature has to interfere if the decision of the English Courts is to be followed and they are to be held to be illegal. On the other hand, the lottery carried on by the Glasgow Corporation may be dealt with under the law as it stands, and until that question has been considered—and I have no doubt it will be considered by my right hon. Friend and colleague the Lord Advocate—it would be entirely premature to introduce language into this Bill to strike at a lottery which the existing law may be quite competent to deal with and to put down if it is illegal. I want it to be remembered that I am offering no opinion as to whether that lottery is a gaming or an illegal business. I do not know and I do not very much care at the present moment, because the duty of dealing with it will rest, in the first instance, with the Lord Advocate. If he comes to me and says that the law is powerless, and I think it ought to be dealt with, a case may be made out for legislation. A case has not yet been made out, and until I am certain that the law of the land is powerless to deal with it I do not propose to introduce language into this Bill to deal with it.
I am not quite satisfied with the explanation of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, and I am not quite sure that I understand the exact position. I was astonished when the hon. Gentleman opposite described What was going on in the tramcars in Glasgow. I understand that the Corporation have set up certain automatic machines in their tramcars—
A machine that punches the tickets.
A machine which punches the tickets—and that the passengers are invited to keep their tickets until the end of the week in the hope of obtaining more than the privilege for which they pay. Obviously it is not a plain, straight-forward action of purchasing the right to travel a certain distance. If the description of my hon. Friend (Mr. MacCallum Scott) is cor- rect, it is a lottery, and nothing but a lottery. Tickets over and above the fare are purchased with the object of obtaining a chance of getting a prize at the end of the week. Is that the position?
Yes.
You pay a penny or more for a ticket in order that at the end of the week you may get £5 or some other amount above the value of the ticket. Surely that cannot be anything other than a lottery? If the Secretary for Scotland is uncertain whether the present state of the law enables that condition of things to be legally carried on, surely it would be better to put this word into the Bill in order that it may be made perfectly clear that that is illegal?
That is entirely outside my province, and entirely within the province of the Lord Advocate.
Then why is not the Lord Advocate here?
Is this Bill intended or is it not intended to curb the spirit of gambling, the introduction of chance into this kind of thing? If it is, then obviously this ought to be brought under the operation of the Bill. I do not know how many millions of passengers travel in the Glasgow tramcars, but they probably number several million every week. When you come to think of it, the number of persons who go into the small shops who use these machines which are to be made illegal under this Bill is comparatively small, while the number who travel in the tramcars is very large. Every child on the tramcars is encouraged to put a penny into this speculation in the hope of getting some reward over and above its value. Nothing could more effectively cultivate the very thing you wish to put down, and I was perfectly astonished when the hon. Gentleman told us that the Glasgow Corporation was doing this thing. As an English Member I feel justified in intervening, because, although I have nothing whatever to do with Scottish affairs, and ordinarily our intervention would be resented, if this practice is legal in Glasgow, and these machines are legal, there is no certainty that they are illegal in England.
Yes.
This kind of machine? I understand the kind of machine you are making illegal in this Bill is the kind which has been held to be illegal in England, but that you are not sure that these machines are illegal and are not willing to make these machines illegal. Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman assure me that if these machines used on the tramcars in Glasgow are introduced into England they will be declared illegal here? Unless he can do that, there is no certainty that this practice will not spread to every town on this side of the Border, and I think, as an English Member, I am entitled to point that out.
I do not quite understand the Secretary for Scotland when he says that this is not a question for him, as to whether these machines are legal or not. I look at the back of the Bill, and I see the Lord Advocate's name is there as supporting the measure. After all, it is a Government measure, and we are quite entitled to take the point that if the Government come to the House, in Government time, and expect us to pass a Bill of this sort they ought to be prepared to defend it. I should have thought the Lord Advocate, as one of the backers of the Bill, would have been in his place to explain any legal points that might arise. The point really is this: We are told—
May I interrupt? I am sure my hon. Friend is a very good authority, but I want to say that the Lord Advocate is detained on official business in Edinburgh to-night; otherwise he would have been here. All I intended to convey was that it was for him to consider whether there should be a prosecution or not. So far as the rest is concerned, that is a matter for me.
That makes the case more serious still, and I am not sure that we should not report Progress until the Lord Advocate can come here again. The point really is this: Here are these machines which are, as I understand the word, nothing more or less than a lottery. We are told that it has yet to be considered whether they are illegal or not. We want to make sure, and we want to be quite certain that in passing this Bill we are not allowing the children and the ordinary individuals in the city of Glasgow to have their morals entirely destroyed by these lotteries. I cannot help thinking that when the Secretary for Scotland reconsiders the matter in the light of what he has heard in the Debate to-night he will see that this is a little bit more than the mere trivial point he seemed to think it was at the start. This is a matter which is really a very serious one from the point of view of the people, not only of Glasgow but of this country, because what can be done in Glasgow can no doubt be done in other parts of Scotland, and the people of England will expect to have the same treatment meted out to them. Why should they not? The time may come when the people of Swindon will claim what is tolerated in the trams of the city of Glasgow. I do not want to see these depraved methods allowed in England and Scotland. If the hon. Gentleman goes to a Division I shall support him. I think we ought to divide. I think this is a great moral issue, and I am astonished to see that the Secretary for Scotland treats it in a light spirit, and smiles when I point out to him that it is not a mere trivial detail, but a matter which deeply concerns the whole community.
I am sorry that this Bill seems likely to take a considerable time at the present moment, because I understand that the House is anxious to get to No. 5 on the Order Paper—Military Service (Conventions with Allied States) Bill—which is a very important measure, and I think everything ought to be done to facilitate its discussion at the present time. I think my right hon. and learned Friend is really viewing this question with undue alarm, if I may say so. Personally, I heard with regret the attacks made on the Glasgow Corporation a few minutes ago by the hon. Member for North-West Lanarkshire (Mr. Pringle) and the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge). I am sure that anything that is supported by the Glasgow Corporation I should be willing to view with favour in the ordinary course of things, but it does surprise me to hear that while this Bill is supported by the Glasgow Corporation the allegation is made that they are parties to some sort of gambling contrivance being carried on their tramcars. That is a very strong statement, and we ought to have the fullest information from the right hon. and learned Gentleman in regard to it. I cannot believe that the Glasgow Corporation are desirous of putting down gambling by the use of machines in shops or elsewhere and are at the same time parties to gambling on their own tramcars. Surely it is impossible. My right hon. and learned Friend is in another difficulty, because he has not the Scottish Law Officers on the bench beside him. This is surely a measure on which we ought to have the legal opinion either of the Solicitor-General or of the Lord Advocate. I should like to know whether the Clause as drafted would not cover the case of Glasgow, and I put this definite question to my right hon. and learned Friend: If one of the machines he is trying to prohibit the use of were placed upon a tramcar in any part of Scotland, would that be legal?
I am afraid that I am scarcely justified in answering a pure question of law, but I do happen to know something about the law, and I should certainly think it would not be legal if one of these machines the Bill is designed to stop were put on a tramcar. But my information is that there is not the smallest probability of that happening.
We are dealing here with putting down an evil. The right hon. and learned Gentleman says it is going to be illegal in future to place a machine of this kind in any shop, office, room or place of public resort in any part of Scotland. Let me draw his attention to the fact that there is no particular name given to the machine. The Clause says any machine for the purpose of any game, sport, hazard, or competition played or participated in by persons resorting to such shop or place, etc. Surely that covers the case of the Glasgow machine! As that is so, it seems to me surely it must apply to any contrivance which is a hazard, in regard to which it, in fact, makes it a lottery. I think we ought to press that point to an assurance, because I think it clearly covers the Glasgow case. I am only personally sorry that a purely Scottish measure of this kind has not been referred to the Scottish Committee upstairs, when the Members for Scotland could have discussed it in all its bearings and fuller details than is possible in a Committee of the House. But I ask an explanation of the apparently two attitudes of Glasgow in regard to this matter. I would like to know also to what purpose the money is going in regard to this lottery on tramcars. I am certain it must be a good purpose to allow the good people of Glasgow to be parties to a lottery—if it is a lottery—of this kind. It seems to me that at a time like 8.0 P.M. this my right hon. Friend should be prepared to cover the whole question, and not take an isolated case which he has put before us at the present time.
I am anxious to assist the Secretary for Scotland in getting legislation for Scotland. We do not get too much of it, and we do not get all we want; but it is clear to my mind that we ought to make a finish of a case like this while we are at it, and, if necessary, a case ought to be taken to the Court to find out what is legal and what is illegal in regard to it. I think my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland would be exceedingly wise if he would postpone the consideration of this matter, and allow both himself and others to consider the legal position and make the Bill as complete as possible. Now I do not quite see what this has to do with the War. I do not see how the Defence of the Realm will be taken care of whether you pass this Bill or not; but I can say this, that practically all the Scottish Members who are present think, at any rate, that the question wants further consideration, and it will be exceedingly unfortunate if the Secretary for Scotland allowed it to go broadly over Scotland that he was about to call in the smoke-room brigade to vote down the Scottish Members. I hope, therefore, that he will postpone the matter until we are fully convinced what it all means, and know whether it will meet the case, and whether it is required. I am sure that is the wisest course, and that the Secretary for Scotland would be wise if he considered the opinions which have been put forward by the Scottish Members present.
I feel inclined to join in the suggestion. I do not quite understand the attitude of the Secretary for Scotland. At the same time I feel it a still greater difficulty for anyone to want to divide against him on this particular point. I do not understand the section at all. I do not understand, in the first place, with regard to the Amendment or whether a tramcar is not a "place." I should have thought that it would have made no difference whatever introducing the word "tramcar." What strikes me as strange about the Clause is it does not define what would be a game of skill. I do not know whether it is the same in Scotland as in England, but in England a sharp distinction is drawn. A game with no skill attached to it is illegal. If there is skill in it there is no objection to it. I do not attach import- ance to this, but I think it is not worth while to press the Amendment, or take time about it, because, as I understand it from what has been said on the moral question, I would rather leave the morals of Glasgow to the Glasgow people. But whatever there may be in it, we have it from the Secretary for Scotland that the question whether these particular machines on the Glasgow tramcars are legal or not remains to be determined. I understand the question will be raised very shortly, and will then be determined. Therefore, I do not think it worth while to press the point.
I feel rather doubtful about my hon. Friend's Amendment, because I am by no means certain what the effect of it would be. If I may be allowed to do so, I would like to put two questions to my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland. In the drafting of this Bill it says "any shop, office, room or place, whether enclosed or not."
I remember that not long ago there was a betting case in England, I suppose the same general provision would apply in Scotland, and the question was whether a bookmaker who moved about over a certain area of the course was within the Act, and whether, I think he stood under the cover of an umbrella, that was betting in a place. The Court finally decided, if my memory serves me aright, that it was betting in that place, because no human being could exist without being in some place or another. If that is the case, I do not quite see the object of putting in this provision words which may have the effect of narrowing the scope of the Bill by limiting the word "place" to places of similar character like those described. I would like to ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland about that. What is the object of putting in these specific Clauses, and I ask whether putting them in does not weaken the general effect of the word "place"? Now I come to the point of my hon. Friend the Member for Lanarkshire (Mr. Pringle). He makes the point that tramcars should be put in. I suppose in suggesting that, his idea is that a tramcar is a moving concern, and therefore is not in one place continuously, and he may think to strengthen the provision by that. But I would point out that if "tramcar" were put in, and the Courts were inter- preting the Act and applying this Section, they might think the fact that the legislature had put in "tramcar," which moves from place to place, would operate as an exclusion, say, to railway trains, which equally move from place to place, but are not in the Bill. Therefore I have a doubt as to whether the insertion of the word "tramcar" might not narrow its effect.
The Secretary for Scotland suggested, very rightly, that there is not the least chance of a gaming machine in the ordinary sense of the word being put in a tramcar. But suppose the tickets are sold and delivered from some little place in a tramcar, and those tickets work out as a lottery, and if prizes were given, would not that constitute a gaming machine within the meaning of the Act? It seems to me a very doubtful point. If tickets are methodically distributed from some little case in which they are kept, and are in fact used after the fares have been collected for winning prizes, I am by no means certain whether that might not be a gaming machine within the meaning of the Act. If it were a gaming machine within the meaning of the Act, then it seems to me that my hon. Friend's proposal to insert "tramcar" would be unnecessary, and, for the reason I have stated, might possibly weaken the effect of the Section.
I find myself in some difference with my hon. Friend. In the first place, I am not sure that a human being must always be in a "place." I think it is possible for a human being to be sometimes very much out of place. In the second place, I am not able to agree with him that tramcars are always moving. There is a great difference amongst them. I believe Glasgow is different from many other places. I think the Secretary for Scotland may be in a difficulty whether to entrust the supervision of Glasgow morals to members of the Glasgow Town Council or some members in this House, but I prefer that he should have the settlement of the question. I take exception also to the Member for Sutherlandshire (Mr. Morton) when he says that the opinions of all and sundry Members for Scotland were opposed to the Bill. I do not think that he is quite warranted in saying that.
I did not say that; I said apparently—
The hon. Member must address the Chair.
I do not see the point of this, that in such an unsatisfactory state as the matter stands at the present moment the Secretary for Scotland has come down to the House to deal with this Amendment without having really cleared up the essential point as to whether a tramcar is really a "place." In dealing with my hon. Friend's Amendment, which I think is an important one, it seems to me that the Secretary for Scotland should have corresponded with his right hon. colleague and cleared up this point, because if Glasgow practices are not going to be dealt with under this Bill, it would be a very serious matter. It seems to me that it would be better to avoid this if you are to deal with Glasgow practices rather than innocent and useful practices, as the Bill must do. I would draw my right hon. Friend's attention to this point: Let us see the position that a person is in in the two cases. In the case which the Bill aims at he goes into some place or shop and of his own accord, without any persuasion, he foolishly no doubt plays with one of these machines, and puts a penny in the slot. It may be foolish of him, but he does it quite out of his own initiative. But what happens when he gets into a Glasgow tram? He gets into a Glasgow tram, and having paid his fare he is actually induced by the collector or the collectoress, which is worse still, to buy a ticket for a charity. Being patriotic he does this at once, and no sooner has he done this than some punching has to be done, which I do not quite understand, and when that is over he finds he is let in for a gambling transaction, and that if he keeps his ticket for a few days he will receive a very large sum of money. Of all unfair, insidious, underhand forms of gambling I do not think I ever heard of one to equal that! And here this House is considering a Bill aimed at these wretched little machines which we see in shops and other like places which are quite inoffensive, and which people use with their eyes open, and leaving out of account something which is carried on under the auspices of a great municipality! Because I should like particularly to point out that these persons, having succumbed to the wiles of the conductress, and having taken a ticket, and finding themselves in a gambling transaction, think they are doing something very respectable because it is under the auspices of the Glasgow Corporation.
And for charity!
Yes, and for charity. Therefore, I think my right hon. Friend is straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.
A tramcar!
I am very glad my hon. Friend, who understands the full extent of these evil practices in Glasgow, has brought the matter before us so clearly. It does not rest only with this particular Amendment, because there will be other consequential Amendments brought up which will put the thing with more force. We shall then be able to aim at the practice, which ought to be put down. My right hon. Friend tells us that it is not quite certain how this matter stands, and he is awaiting the decision of the Lord Advocate. I think the present is a most unsatisfactory state to leave us in, and I hope my hon. and learned Friend will press the matter further.
I appeal to the Committee that, having had a very long discussion, we should come to a decision. I do not in the least degree want to stop any arguments that hon. Members want to put forward, but I am very anxious to get on with the business. My hon. Friend behind me indicated the same thing. May I ask the Committee to let me have this Clause, and may I ask my hon. Friend to withdraw his Amendment on the understanding that the whole situation will be reconsidered before the Report stage? I do not propose to take that stage to-night. If my hon. Friend will be good enough to withdraw his Amendment, I promise a full consideration to the arguments that have been adduced.
Before the hon. Gentleman opposite responds to the appeal, there is one point I should like to put to the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill. This Bill refers only to Scotland. I hope my Scottish Friends will not object to the intrusion of an Irish Member, but there is one point I should like those in charge of the Bill to consider before the Report stage. On the Second Reading the right hon. Gentleman told us that one of the great reasons for this Bill was that these machines, which are referred to, have been made illegal in England, and are not illegal in Scotland, and the result has been that they have all been dumped into Scotland from England. I want the right hon. Gentleman to satisfy the House of Commons and the Irish Members before the Report stage of the Bill that what happened in the case of Scotland will not happen in the case of Ireland, and that if this Bill becomes an Act, and makes these machines illegal that, having been dumped from England into Scotland, they will not be dumped from Scotland into Ireland. I know that machines in which the gambling element is supposed to predominate are supposed to be illegal in Ireland, but I think the Committee is entitled to have some assurance from those who are promoting this Bill that the effect of the Bill, if passed here, will not be that these machines will be dumped across the Channel into Ireland, where we certainly do not want to them. I do not know, for instance, in relation to this particular Amendment whether, if I support it, and if you compel Glasgow trams to give up these practices complained of, that the machines in question will not be attached to the Dublin trams. Has the right hon. Gentleman consulted the Irish Members about this? What is their view of the Bill. I think it is a very one-sided arrangement that Bills of this nature, particularly Bills which do not deal with war emergency situations, and about which there can be no possible hurry, should be hurried through this House without having proper consideration. I do not wish to be in the slightest degree unreasonable, and if the right hon. Gentleman is in a position to assure us that Ireland is not likely to suffer in the way I have suggested I have no objection to the course suggested by him. I hope on the Report stage he will give the assurances for which I ask.
My right hon. Friend has made a very generous offer in saying that he will review the whole situation, and give us the view of the Lord Advocate on the Report stage if I withdraw the Amendment. So far as I am concerned I accept his offer. I desire to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment, but I shall put it down on the Report stage.
We have no assurance that there will be a Report stage. The Government have not got down a single Amendment, and if they treat the other Amendments with the same careless lack of argument and the pushing away of serious moral issues, as has been done in connection with these Amendments, we shall not get a Report stage. Without any desire to be discourteous to my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow who wishes to withdraw, for the reasons I have stated, I cannot allow him to do it. We must have an assurance that there will be a Report stage.
Certainly.
How can there be? Which Amendment are you going to accept? If the right hon. Gentleman will tell us that we will know where we are. We are told there will be a Report stage, but we do not know on what basis it will be.
Amendment negatived.
I beg, in Sub-section (1), to move to leave out the words "whether enclosed or not" ["shop, office, room, or place whether enclosed or not"], and to insert instead thereof the words "if enclosed."
This Amendment is not quite the same as my other Amendment. The effect of my Amendment will be that where these machines are in the front of the shop and open to the public and to the police that they shall not be illegal. If they are secret and closed in, or in a back part of the shop, they will be illegal under this measure. That is a very wise course. The evil does not exist in my mind at all, but it apparently exists in the mind of my right hon. Friend. For my part I have never been able to see the difference between putting a penny in a slot machine and buying stock on the Stock Exchange for a rise. It is done in the shop and before the public eye.
I am prepared to accept the first part of the Amendment, namely, to leave out the words, "whether enclosed or not," which were inserted in order to prevent the transference of these machines to open, unenclosed places, but in respect of that concession I would ask my hon. Friend not to press the insertion of the words "if enclosed." They seem to me quite unnecessary, because the words "office, room, or place" in the Burgh Police Act have been held to include enclosed areas, and I do not think there is any necessity for inserting these words here. Therefore I will accept the first part of the Amendment if my hon. Friend does not press for the insertion of the words "if enclosed."
I am not sure what the effect of that will be. Supposing the words, "whether enclosed or not" are left out, the definition of the prohibited area is introduced by three words, which mean an enclosed space, and then the more general expression, "place," follows. We have had very queer experiences of the interpretation that the legal mind puts upon Acts of Parliament, and I am not at all sure if the words are left out that we are not laying ourselves open to this sort of decision that it will be held the intention of Parliament was that this Bill should apply to a shop, an office, a room, or similar place. Therefore, I think, if it is the intention of my right hon. Friend to prevent those machines being moved out of a shop and put near the front door, or back door, or in the open yard, that would not be met. Those of us who know how this thing is conducted know that the outside is more convenient and far more frequently resorted to because if anyone goes to a public house with a back yard, where drinking and joy-making of a general character is done you find that those machines are fixed upon and near the tables. My right hon. Friend has only to take a walk on Hampstead Heath to see how the thing is done, and what he can see quite openly any day there is what is done in certain parts of Scotland. I feel sure that if he takes out these words, proprietors of those machines will simply take them outside, and then put in a plea that the Act only applies to places like a shop, an office, or a room. I therefore hope he will not accept the Amendment of my hon. Friend opposite, because I think it leaves his intention much more inadequately expressed than in the Bill as it stands.
I shall be very sorry if my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland accepts this Amendment. I am one of those who fully appreciate the objects of the Bill, and the desire to stop the influx into Scotland of this class of machine, that simply tempts children to gamble in great numbers. But it seems to me that the phraseology which the Government propose to accept would have the effect of limiting the prohibition to these machines in enclosed places, and that it is really trifling with the subject if these machines, which are doing so much damage—
Which machines are they?
I do not know what machines they are; they are machines spoken of in the Section; and if it is desirable to put down this class of machine, it is surely equally desirable to put it down whether the machine is inside or outside a shop. In fact, the machines planted outside will probably be a greater temptation. For these reasons I should be very sorry if the Government accepted the Amendment of my hon. Friend, or even if they accepted it as suggested from the Front Bench, unless we have a clear assurance that "place" is intended to cover any place, whether enclosed or not.
I fear we may get ourselves into very considerable trouble later by legal decisions if my hon. Friend consents to withdraw the words "if enclosed." I would remind the Committee of a famous decision in English law after certain Acts were passed with regard to betting which seemed to strike at the root of betting, and it was afterwards discovered that certain places were not places within the meaning of the Act. Immediately you have this Bill an Act of Parliament, if you leave out altogether any word which specifies a place, whatever kind it may be—I am not worrying at all about whether it is outside or inside, or enclosed or otherwise—you will create a difficulty. I want it defined, because if you fail to define it you are going to involve people in irritating legal actions, and, after all, there is a great amount of money involved in this industry. My hon. Friend who spoke last knew nothing at all about the machines except that they were described in a Clause of this Bill. He does not know whether they are automatic machines or punching machines, or what they are.
I may perhaps be allowed to point out that they are not necessarily automatic machines. The terms of the Bill are very wide.
That makes it worse. It shows that the hon. Member's ignorance is more profound. The hon. Member knows little about these machines—in fact, none of us do. I should think my right hon. Friend could have specified these machines. I do not know if he has ever tried any of them. One is for testing strength. I do not know whether my right hon. Friend tested one before coming to the Committee as a useful, physical exercise. Probably my right hon. Friend remembers the famous case in which certain race-courses in this country were not considered places within the meaning of the Act. If any of these machines is put into one of these places it would be perfectly easy to evade the law. My right hon. Friend is an Edinburgh man like myself, and he knows we have race meet at Musselburgh. It is within reasonable distance of Edinburgh, Leith and the surrounding neighbourhood, and if the Lord Advocate said it was not a place within the meaning, these automatic machines could be taken to Musselburgh. Can the Secretary for Scotland assure the Committee that if my hon. Friend accepts his suggestion, as I am sure he will, so as to get on with the business before the House for the winning of the War, which this Bill is supposed to help, shall we have questions of that kind arising? Shall we not have a lot of legal actions as to whether the place where the machine is placed is or is not a place within the meaning of the Act? I hope before my hon. and learned Friend withdraws his Amendment he will insist upon some further explanation.
I confess to a certain measure of disappointment with the speech of my hon. and learned Friend who has just sat down, because I expected from him a much longer expression of opposition to the Amendment than to which he has just given expression, because he has always been very actively and prominently associated with the anti-gambling movement; indeed, it was my hon. and learned Friend who years ago first directed my attention to and enlisted my sympathy with the anti-gambling movement. I have no desire to unduly protract the discussion, because I understand the Government are anxious to get item No. 15 on the Order Paper, which is a Bill for the Relief of the Clergy in Essex and Hertfordshire, and I should be very sorry if those reverend gentlemen were not able to get what evidently they so much need. I want to say a word or two about the Amendment and the attitude of the Secretary for Scotland. It is quite true that this Amendment does not involve the great moral issues raised by the previous Amendments, but nevertheless it is a proposal of very substantial importance.
If this Amendment be accepted in the form in which the Secretary for Scotland proposes to accept it, it will practically destroy the usefulness and effectiveness of this measure. Hon. Members who have taken part in the Debate have pointed out that if the Amendment be accepted in the form in which it is proposed, it will, in the absence of a more precise definition of the meaning of the word "place," relieve those who are using these machines from the operation of this measure if they are outside an enclosed place. I am sure we cannot allow this Amendment to pass or the Debate to come to an end until we have received from the Secretary for Scotland an assurance on that important point. I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is quite sure, speaking not only as Secretary for Scotland, but as a lawyer with profound knowledge, if his suggestion be adopted it will not be possible to bring these machines into the open air and conduct the whole traffic free from any kind of penalties to which those using the machines would be liable if operated in an enclosed place? We must have an assurance on that point, because I am quite sure the Secretary for Scotland will agree that if these machines can be used in open places, such as market places at country fairs, the whole purpose of the Bill would be defeated.
I threw out a suggestion which I thought might be acceptable and which might have the effect of shortening the discussion, and that was the sole reason I rose immediately after my hon. and learned Friend moved his Amendment. Apparently the suggestion which I made is not acceptable to the Committee, and I doubt if it is acceptable to my hon. and learned Friend. In those circumstances I do not press my suggestion upon the Committee. I do not think myself any harm would be done if the words "if enclosed" were omitted. But I have been impressed with the views which have been expressed, and I feel that my suggestion is not acceptable. Under these circumstances I withdraw the suggestion which I made.
I am not surprised at the right hon. Gentleman withdrawing his suggestion, and I cannot see on what ground he hoped my hon. and learned Friend would accept it. The Bill as it stands includes the words "whether enclosed or not," and my hon. and learned Friend proposes to substitute the words "if enclosed." Consequently his intention was to limit, whereas, on the whole, the intention of the suggestion made by the Secretary for Scotland was rather to extend the meaning of the word "place." On this question a great deal depends on what these machines are and as to how we are to interpret the words which are before the Committee. We have heard a great deal of talk about these machines. My hon. and learned Friend opposite (Mr. Dundas White) spoke of these machines as if they were common property, and when pressed to define what machines he had in mind he had to avow his ignorance on the point. The whole question of the interpretation of the word "place" depends on the nature of the machines, and that is a matter which has never been dealt with in any speech made by the Secretary for Scotland. I think it might help us to come to a decision if we knew exactly the nature of the machine intended to be dealt with. Personally, I have never heard of these machines at all. The hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden), who has a very fertile mind, suggests that we might have a few in the Tea Room, so that hon. Members between now and the Report stage might see what they are and be able to know the effect of them on their own morals and therefore able to judge whether they are likely to affect the morals of other people or not. If these machines can easily be carried about, it is obvious that it is very important to have the words as wide as possible, and I hope my right hon. Friend will enlighten us as to what they really are.
I am very glad that the right hon. Gentleman has adopted the course which he has now taken. The proposal in the Bill is one thing and the Amendment which is now before the Committee is another thing. The right hon. Gentleman was going to take a course which was neither one thing nor the other, and which would have meant a great deal of uncertainty and possibly litigation. It is very desirable, when passing legislation through the House of Commons, that the Government and the House should make their intentions as clear, as plain, and as simple as possible on the face of the Bill, and that certainly would not have been done if the right hon. Gentleman had persisted in his suggestion. I do not know what attitude the hon. Member who proposed the Amendment is going to take and whether he is going to press it upon the attention of the Committee or not, but, if he is, I for my part shall feel compelled to oppose the Amendment, because if the machines are wrong and do a considerable amount of harm the harm is done whether they are operated in an enclosed space or not.
I really feel bound to oppose the Amendment. It seems to me to be a very dangerous thing to suggest that this should be done in a place only when it is enclosed. One must be a little careful in the sort of Amendment one supports in a matter of this kind, and while I should like to feel myself in agreement with my hon. Friend, I am very sorry that under the circumstances I cannot support him.
I am sorry I have not had an opportunity of accepting the compromise which was suggested by my right hon. Friend. I was, in point of fact, desirous of accepting it, but I had not the opportunity of catching your eye. I am sorry if my right hon. Friend should have been annoyed at my want of courtesy in not accepting his offer, but in order to show that I am not annoyed with him I will ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in Subsection (1), after the word "persons" ["participated in by persons"] to insert the words "under fifteen years of age."
The object of this Amendment is to limit the application of the Bill to people under fifteen years of age. My right hon. Friend, on the Second Reading, made the following observations as reasons for bringing in the measure:
Once again I am afraid that I find myself at variance with my hon. Friend. It seems to me quite incomprehensible, if these machines or mechanical contrivances for the purpose of any game, sport, hazard or competition are to be prohibited at all, that you should have an age limit and make it apply only to those under fifteen years of age. It seems to me most desirable that the prohibition should apply to everybody, irrespective of age.
What are they?
They are all here. "Machines or mechanical contrivances for the purpose of any game, sport, hazard, of competition played or participated in by persons."
Did you ever see one?
No, I have seen penny-in-the-slot machines and machines on Hampstead Heath, which, I suppose, would come under this description, but, whatever they are, if they are bad for persons under fifteen years of age they are bad for all people.
You could not see one on Hampstead Heath because it would be illegal there.
Possibly there may be worse things than I have seen on Hampstead Heath. I am glad that they should be stopped, and I desire them to be stopped for people of all ages. I cannot understand the reasons which prompted my hon. Friend to move the Amendment restricting it to people under fifteen years of age. These machines, if they are to be made illegal, should be made illegal for all people, no matter what their ages may be.
My hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. R. Lambert), who has given us his personal reminiscences of Hampstead Heath, really does not quite appreciate the object of the Amendment. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow (Mr. Watt) is usually very clear, very direct, and commendably brief in his utterances, and I am surprised that my hon. Friend for North Wiltshire has not observed that what my hon. Friend is attempting to do by this Amendment is to limit the effect of this Bill, against which he openly declares himself to be opposed. A great many of us take up a different attitude with regard to a number of these things. Many of us think that any mechanical contrivance which promotes a gambling spirit is a wrong thing, and for that reason one might wish to see these machines suppressed. Although we have had some chaff and jokes about this Bill, I should like to point out to the Committee that no Minister has yet got up and told us what these machines are. I have seen a lot of these machines.
Tell us what they are.
I have used these machines, and I want to understand what my right hon. Friend thinks they are, because, while it may be quite true that there is a certain type of machine which it is desirable to suppress, we must remember that a great number of people have honestly put their capital into the purchase of these machines, which are as much for the public amusement as the House of Commons is. Therefore you have no right to destroy their capital unless you have a clear case for doing so. Take a machine such as this. I have gone to a weighing machine before now. You turn round the hands to the weight that you suppose yourself to be, you put your penny in the slot, and, if you have indicated your weight correctly, your penny comes back to you. Is that a gambling machine?
Yes.
There are no prizes.
I do not think that the nature of these machines arises on each of these Amendments.
We had no answer on the last Amendment.
This Amendment deals with the question of the age of the person.
I know, but if you, Sir, appreciated these weighing machines, you would know that there is a cheaper price for children. The Amendment raises the point as to the limitation of age, therefore my reference to the weighing machine was in order. I had another illustration in my mind, but I will not give it to the Committee, as you do not desire it. I did not mean to review all machines, but it is a perfectly pertinent question to put one specific case like that. Although I am an anti-gambler and the honorary secretary of the Anti-Gambling League, I do not consider that this is a gambling machine. You might gamble on the results of the machine, as you might gamble on the results of an election and on the result of the War. The Amendment is directed to making it impossible for anyone under the age of fifteen to be contaminated by association with any of these machines, and to allowing the contamination to be exercised upon everybody who is fifteen years of age and upwards. Fifteen years is to be the age of consent so far as these mechanical contrivances are concerned. The hon. Member for North Wilts has misunderstood my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment, and ought to put himself right with the Committee now that he appreciates what is at stake. If he says that what is wrong for one age ought to be wrong for all, it is up to him to support my hon. Friend the Member for the College Division. The Bill as drawn applies to everybody, but this Amendment limits the application of the Bill. I would suggest to the hon. Member for North Wilts that before the discussion ends he should make another speech.
I am sorry that my hon. Friend and colleague the Member for the College Division of Glasgow (Mr. Watt) should be as much opposed to the principle of the Bill as he is, and should propose this Amendment, because it is in fact not only a wrecking Amendment but rather a frivolous Amendment. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] Let me put this point to the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge). If the proposal in the Bill was to penalise the people who used the machines I would support the Amendment. It does not pro- 9.0 P.M. pose to penalise them; it proposes to penalise the person who allows the machine to be set up in his shop. It is very necessary that action should be taken against these machines and against children using them, but if a person is to be allowed to set up these machines in his shop to be used by the public generally and there was to be no offence unless the machine were used by someone under the age of fifteen, it would reduce legislation to chaos and make the prohibition practically unworkable. If we want these machines to be suppressed and to give effect to the main object of the Bill, the limitation of age in this particuar case is irrelevant and these machines ought not to be allowed to be set up in any place. If my hon. Friend limits the Bill to places to which persons under that age have access, there is something to be said for the Amendment, but as it stands now there is nothing to be said for it.
Scotland has a reputation for logic, and I really cannot understand the meaning of the last two Amendments following the first one. The speech of the hon. Member (Mr. Watt) on the first Amendment was a denunciation of the Glasgow Corporation for putting gambling facilities before the public. I understood that on the first Amendment his object was to reduce facilities for the encouragement of gambling, but this Amendment would legalise the placing of those machines anywhere, provided that they were not used by anybody under fifteen years of age. Is that the object?
Yes.
Then I am against him. These macines—
Which machines?
I do not know what the nature of the machines is; they are facilities for gambling.
How do you know?
They are temptations to gambling. They give people an opportunity for speculation and games of chance.
How do you know?
I am against that for all persons, both above and below fifteen years of age. I cannot understand how the hon. Member for the College Division can reconcile this Amendment with his speech on the first Amendment.
I regret I cannot accept this Amendment for the reasons which have been stated by several of my hon. Friends who have spoken and, in particular, by the hon. Member for the Tradeston Division (Mr. Dundas White). I am surprised that my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) should support this Amendment. The purpose of this Bill, as he himself truly said, is to put down gambling machines—machines which have been held by the Law Courts in England to be gambling machines—yet he, as secretary of the Anti-Gambling League, is prepared to support a reactionary Amendment of this kind. I must say I am disappointed with my hon. Friend. I say perfectly plainly that if I accepted this Amendment I should be presenting to the House of Commons a quite unworkable Bill. The people who frequent these places do not go about with their birth certificates in their pockets. I think it would be quite unfair also on the shopkeepers who run these establishments that any youth under fifteeen who might look more than fifteen should by working one of the machines render the shopkeeper liable to prosecution. On the broad ground that to accept the Amendment would be to wreck the Bill, I do not propose to accept it.
I am very glad to find myself in agreement for once with the Secretary for Scotland, and I share his surprise at the attitude which has been taken up by the hon. Member (Mr. Hogge). Every successive speech that he delivers upon this Bill shows more and more how unworthy he is in these days to occupy the position of secretary to the National Anti-Gambling League. He appears to be qualifying very rapidly to take up a similar position in connection with the Gambling Association. I am generally in association with any proposal made by the hon. Member who moved the Amendment, and therefore I think I may, as a friend, urge the appeal that he will not persist with it. If it be an immoral thing for young people to be prevented from using these machines because of the demoralising effect such practices are likely to have, it is equally important that grown-ups should be protected also. If I had spoken before the Secretary for Scotland, I should have urged as a very practical objection to the Amendment the point that he put forward of the utter impracticability of enforcing such a provision as this. It is quite unworkable. It would be putting upon those who own these machines a responsibility that legislation ought not to impose upon them, and therefore I hope the hon. Member will not persist with the Amendment.
I am surprised that my right hon. Friend has not been willing to accept some limitation in regard to age. I quite agree that fifteen may not be the correct age, but the whole case upon this Bill was based upon the effect on children of these machines, which we have never had any description of but which English Members show a great familiarity with, although they are quite illegal in England. That was the sole case upon the Second Reading of the Bill. I have received a certain number of letters regarding the Bill, and in every case the question has arisen as to the effect upon the children, consequently there is no suggestion at all that any person of full years can be affected prejudicially by them. If that is so, it surely cannot be an offence to have these machines for persons who ought to know what they are doing. It is easy to say you cannot enforce the provisions of the Act if this limitation were introduced, but why not take a higher age than that? I should be quite willing to accept the age at which a man qualifies for registration under the National Register Act. Then you have a simple test. If a man cannot show his National Register certificate he is not entitled to use a machine. If he can show it, the person in charge of the machine is entitled to allow him to use it. Surely that is a fair proposition. It is easy to ascertain the nature of the offence under these conditions, and I hope my right hon. Friend will yet consider as to whether he will not consent to a limitation in regard to age.
I cannot understand why my hon. Friends opposite do not deal with the practical question involved in their Amendment. They are proposing to prevent anyone except people who are fifteen or seventeen years of age to putting their penny in the slot. It does not really matter very much whether it is fifteen, seventeen, or twenty, but they are trying to limit the age. How is it going to be done? Why do they not deal with the practical question which is raised by the hon. Member for Tradeston (Mr. D. White)? You have these machines in or outside the shops. How are they going to be watched? How are you going to know whether it is a child or a grown-up who has put his penny in? Are you going to have a policeman to each machine, or what is your system? Surely it is a hopelessly unpractical suggestion. The thing cannot be done. You might, I agree, watch these machines fairly strictly by day, but what is going to happen with the machines outside the houses when it is dark? Then you are going to have the infants coming and dropping in their pennies. I suggest that my hon. Friend should drop the Amendment at once.
On behalf of my hon. Friend, I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
That must be done by the hon. Member himself.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move, after the word "kind" ["stake in money or kind is awarded"], to insert the words "of more than twenty times the value of the money staked."
The Clause as drawn would strike against machines which only return the amount of the money which is inserted. There are machines in which a man guesses his weight and puts in a penny, and if he guesses correctly he gets the penny returned. No one can suggest that that is a very demoralising machine, or that there is a tremendous gamble involved therein. There are other machines for testing strength. If a man can pull or press with a certain force he gets his money returned. These are not of the nature of gambling machines, and I hope even if my right hon. Friend is not able to accept the Amendment in the exact form in which I have put it he may be able to meet the point, so that all these machines may not be equally struck at and rendered illegal.
There are machines in which you have certain figures which kick a ball between goalposts or drive a golf ball round a course. You put your penny in the slot and you pull certain handles at certain rates, and if you manage to get the ball between the goalposts or into one of the golf holes your penny is returned. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell me this time, because this is the proper Amendment on which he can tell me, are these machines included? I am quite willing to support him in putting down any machine which permits gambling. For instance, there you get returned from the machine for the insertion of a penny, and as the result of certain mechanical contrivance, more than the value of the money you put in. I can understand the reason why those should be suppressed. If he makes it quite clear that machines of that kind which do not in themselves give facilities for gambling and for mere profit do not come within this Clause, we should know what machines are meant.
I am sure that anyone who has studied the effect of the Amendment must see that it is one which the Secretary for Scotland cannot possibly accept, because it would destroy the whole working of the Bill. The effect of the Amendment is to legalise these machines so long as the odds are not more than twenty to one. I take it that the machine would be all right under this Amendment so long as the amount that may be won is less than twenty times the amount that is staked. A proposal of that sort seems to me to be hardly worth serious discussion. This Amendment, however, does raise a question, and I am glad that the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) put it, namely, the case of those machines that in certain events return the penny, sometimes by force of chance and sometimes by skill. I should like to have from the Government a clear statement whether the returning of the coin that is put in in certain events would make the machine a gaming machine within the meaning of this Clause. The Clause says:
"in which game….. any prize or stake in money or kind is awarded or forfeited contingently on the result of the operation."
That is a most ingenious and comprehensive piece of drafting, and it seems to me that as it stands it would be wide enough to cover the class of machine to which I have referred, and the machine which in certain events returns the coin would be a gaming machine within the meaning of the Clause. I express no opinion on the merits of this Amendment, but I think it is proper at this point to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether it is intended that a machine should be a gaming machine within the meaning of the Clause, notwithstanding the fact that it returns the coin that has been put into it?
Of course we are all aware that the hon. Member (Mr. Dundas White) is an ex-official of the Scottish Office. He has shown us that clearly, and he is in that official frame of mind that backs up everything that is initiated by the Government as perfect. His speech, however, did not secure the end he sought. He said that he did not wish the machine of the type which returns the penny to be brought under this measure. That was precisely the object which my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Pringle) had in view when he put down this Amendment. I happened to know his mind on the subject. He was desirous of saving from this measure the machine which returns the stake. He was under the impression that it was not a very serious offence on the part of a child or grown-up to put in a penny and to run the risk of getting back the stake. But there was difficulty in framing an Amendment that would carry out that object, and this Amendment was my hon. and learned Friend's best effort. I think the Secretary for Scotland should consider the advisability of leaving out of this Bill the simple type of machine which has been described by my hon. Friend where, on a certain skill being exercised or a certain strength shown, or something of that kind, the stake is returned to the individual. The odds are not very great there. The Amendment is to limit the odds to twenty to one. That does not, however, achieve the idea which I have in my mind in supporting this Amendment.
I think it will be manifest to the Committee that I cannot possibly accept this Amendment. It is not intended to wreck the Bill, but it would in point of fact, if I accepted it, make the Bill quite unworkable. If this Amendment were accepted and it became part of the Bill not one of the machines which have been held to be gambling machines by the Courts in this country, and at which it is intended that this Bill should strike, would be struck by the Bill. There would be a very easy way of avoiding the provisions of the Act by reducing the amount of the stake to something less than twenty to one. These machines would then become legal. Very much less than that stake would tempt a child or a young person, and I am not prepared to accept an Amendment which would render the Bill useless, and which would induce the persons who are using these machines at the present time to evade its operation. Accordingly, I an sorry that I must take up the same attitude again. But all these are limiting Amendments, and in so far as they are limiting Amendments they are narrowing the scope of the Bill, and not only narrowing it, but their effect, though not their intention, would be to make it useless.
The right hon. Gentleman has not endeavoured to meet the point of substance. It is quite true that under certain circumstances this Amend- ment would have the effect he mentions, but there is the point which my hon. Friend opposite also accepts, that a machine which simply returns the stake has a case for being excepted from the operations of this Bill. The right hon. Gentleman made no effort to deal with that case. No one will say that where the stake only is returned that any bad effects are going to result. I had hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would have been able to give a better reply. He has contented himself with dealing with the Amendment as it stands, and has not touched the general question. If he will not touch the general question I am inclined to go to a Division on the question of principle. Nobody, would suggest that there was any question of morals arising in reference to a weighing machine which returns the person his penny if he indicates his own weight, or in reference to a machine for testing one's strength. Yet the Bill in its present form makes persons in possession of such machines liable to a fine of £25.
I am quite sure that my right hon. Friend knows me well enough not to suspect me of a desire to refrain from dealing with any point which he puts to me for an answer. I inadvertently omitted to deal with a point to which he has referred. As my hon. and learned Friend desires me to deal not only with this Amendment, but with the point put by the hon. and learned Member for Tradeston, I shall do so. I understood it to be suggested that machines such as for testing the strength and so forth, which return the coin put in, might well be excepted from the operation of the Bill. I think that is a fair point to consider, and I shall consider it before the Report stage.
The right hon. Gentleman has referred us on two points to the Report stage, but, up to the present, no Amendment has been accepted.
I said quite distinctly some time ago that there would be a Report stage. I am willing to accept the proposal of the hon. and learned Member for the Tradeston Division, after "keeper," to insert the word "manager." That will ensure a Report stage.
Will the right hon. Gentleman deal with the question of machines at railway stations which are intended to provide matches, cigarettes, fruit, and other things in return for the money charged and which fail to do so, and which are, therefore, a greater gamble than any of the machines against which this Bill is directed?
Amendment negatived.
Amendment made: In Sub-section (2), after the word "keeper," insert the word "manager."— [Mr. Watt.]
I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the word "twenty-five," and to insert instead thereof the word "five."
It is a most excessive penalty to render a man who has any of these mechanical machines on his premises, even for the use of his family and friends, liable to a fine of —25 and three months' imprisonment, and I propose in addition to this Amendment also to omit the imprisonment. It is a most absurd provision. I am surprised at my right hon. Friend bringing into the House of Commons a measure which punishes in this drastic way a man in possession of these machines, which many of us consider quite innocent, but which my right hon. Friend, the Scottish Office, and the corporation of Glasgow consider objectionable.
My hon. and learned Friend is always so reasonable that I find it difficult to resist his arguments. On this particular occasion, what I propose to do, if it commends itself to him and to the Committee, is to reduce the amount of the penalty to £10 and the period of imprisonment say to 60 days. My hon. and learned Friend must remember that the penalty provided is the maximum penalty, and not the penalty which must be imposed.
But the Glasgow magistrates—
Even Glasgow magistrates often modify the penalty which they have power to inflict. In reference to the alternative of imprisonment, seeing that these machines are a considerable source of revenue, to reduce the money penalty might simply mean imposing a sentence of imprisonment instead of imposing a fine which the Glasgow magistrates might think insufficient. If my suggestion secures anything like general assent I am prepared to move the Amendments which I have indicated.
I desire to withdraw my Amendment, in order that the right hon. Gentleman may move the Amendment which he has suggested.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment made: Leave out the word "twenty-five," and insert instead thereof the word "ten."— [Mr. Munro.]
I beg to move, to leave out the words "three months," and to in insert instead thereof the words "sixty days."
I am obliged to my right hon. Friend for his concession, but I still think that sixty days' imprisonment is an excessive term.
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
I would like my right hon. Friend to tell us what machines this Clause deals with. We have no information whatever on this point. We have simply been told that certain machines have been found illegal in England which are legal in Scotland, and that this Bill is intended to make the law in Scotland correspond with the law in England. It is true that there has been a judgment regarding some of these machines. There is one machine called the "Clown" machine, but I have never seen it. Even after the judgment in England we still have these machines in many parts of the country, and my hon. and learned Friend tells me that he has appeared for people who were prosecuted for having these machines, and that he has got them off every time. If that is so I think that we should not be asked to alter the law on a false statement of fact. If these machines are in use all over England, and in many places there are no prosecutions, while in other places the prosecutions have failed, surely we should not adopt a provision which covers a great many machines more than are intended by the right hon. Gentleman. Therefore, before the Clause is passed I put it to my right hon. Friend that he should tell us exactly what the machines are, so that we may know, for the first time, what the Bill is doing.
I will respond at once to my hon. and learned Friend. I suppose that a large number of the members of the Committee know a good deal more about these machines than I do, or than my hon. and learned Friend gives them credit for. I can, however, give the Committee a description of one of the latest machines, which was dealt with in the recent case before the Court of Session. It is thus described in the official report:
"An ice-cream dealer kept in his premises an automatic machine which was used by his customers. It was actuated by inserting a penny in a slot and pressing a lever which released a ball from the top of the machine. In its descent, the ball passed through irregularly placed rows of pins and emerged at one of six openings in the bottom row, where it could be intercepted by a sliding cup operated by the player, whose object was to catch the ball in the cup. If successful, the player, in addition to another turn at the machine free of charge, received from the machine a metal disc entitling him to twopence or fourpence worth of goods in the shop. These discs could be seen through the glass face of the machine, and a player was thus aware of the value of the disc he was playing for. If unsuccessful, he forfeited his penny."
This question raises a far larger issue than the mere question of these gaming machines in Scotland. It is time for the Government to take into consideration what is an illegal game and what is not, and I do hope that my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland will, as a result of this Debate, urge the War Cabinet to take this matter into consideration. In respect of the decisions of the Divisional Court, old Statutes have been brought up—one of 1845 and another of 1848—and, indeed, there is no game that cannot be held to be illegal if the decision of the Divisional Court is correct. Pigeon shooting matches, and all sorts of games in which skill and luck are combined, cannot be held to be legal if the decision of the Divisional Court is found to be correct. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said the other day that in these days of War any innocent recreation ought to be allowed to the people of this country. It is not for me to say whether these ingenious contrivances can be described as a game of skill or a game of chance, but on one occasion, I believe, an hon. and learned Friend of mine on that side of the House or on this side of the House—I forget on which he sits, probably both sides—inspected one of these machines, and even took part in the innocent diversion of trying to catch the ball in the clown's cap. When that case came before the Court of Appeal, I think it was held that the game was a legal game. Since then the Divisional Court on one occasion, and the Court of Criminal Appeal on another occasion, held that this game is illegal. It is not for me as a Member of this House to question the rightness of that decision, but it does seem to me that the time has come when the Government ought to take into account the state of the law with regard to gaming, and should seek to make use of this opportunity, or any other opportunity, in order to find out what ought to be done so that the law may be put in accordance with public opinion and common sense.
On the other hand I think we ought to remind the Government that we are at war, and that it is an absurdity to take up the time of the House by a measure of this description. We on these benches have had the experience on various occasions of being rebuked for initiating important and serious matters, members of the Treasury Bench at once rising, and with funereal solemnity saying, "We are at war." The Secretary for Scotland appears to have forgotten that when he invited the House to embark upon this crusade in times like these. Really it reduces the House of Commons to a farce and an absurdity. This question of games is an old one, and has been before the House over and over again. I remember its being raised. There are games of chance at charitable bazaars, lotteries are allowed and things that are far more gambling transactions and which are incomparably more serious than what are now engaging the attention of the House on the present occasion. The Government, even in times of peace, have tried to deal with these matters, and have found them so complicated that they could not proceed further, and had to drop them. Yet now, in the midst of this great War, we have brought before the House a most innocent form of gambling, a most footy and trashy form, a penny or twopence being the stake which is invested. Really, I think this is part and parcel of the same attempt which has been made by other reformers to take advantage of the present state of public absorption in the War to put down these comparatively innocent forms of amusement. To my mind, in seeking to interfere with the people's entertainments and amusements in this way, you really run very serious risk of creating an enormous amount of discontent among many classes of the population. My view is that you cannot kill all these sources of amusement without adding to the discontent, the certainly growing discontent, in the country, when, amidst all the troubles which they have to bear from the prolongation of the War, you add the further trouble of interfering with their amusements. I respectfully suggest to the Secretary for Scotland that he should postpone this measure until some suitable occasion after the War.
I do not think my hon. Friend who has just spoken has quite realised the situation with which this Bill deals, and to which I referred when I moved the Second Reading. This is a new development which has arisen quite recently, and in this way: These particular machines became a nuisance in England, and were held by the Courts of Law here to be quite illegal, and the result has been that in recent times all these illegal machines from England have been dumped down on the other side of the Border. The result has been that there has been a great increase in juvenile crime to such an extent that I have been pressed, even in war-time, by a great many of the responsible public authorities in Scotland, town councils of our largest cities, school boards and others who are charged with the care and welfare of youth, to introduce this Bill at once to meet what they regard as a crying evil. They do so even at a time like this, and the Committee will judge whether there is not a good deal of force in the argument they use, namely, that when thrift is being inculcated upon everybody, both in Scotland as well as in England, and at a time when it is of the first importance that our young people should grow up to be good citizens to replace those who have gone before, it is highly desirable that these machines which are debauching their minds, and which have produced more juvenile crime in recent times than any other cause should be put a stop to. That is the justification which I offer to the Committee for introducing a Bill of this sort in war-time. I do suggest that when my hon. Friend has considered the situation in the light of the circumstances as they exist in Scotland he will see that his condemnation has been undeserved.
Question put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 2.— (Short Title and Extent.)
(2) This Act may be cited as the Gaming Machines (Scotland) Act, 1917, and shall apply to Scotland only.
The proposed Amendments on this Clause are not in Order, as they are outside the scope of the Bill.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Bill reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.
Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
This is a very simple measure designed to secure one definite object. The men of the Royal Fleet Reserve and the officers and men of the Royal Naval Reserve and the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve were mobilised for actual service under Section 4 of the Royal Naval Reserve Volunteer Act, 1859, by Royal Proclamations of the 3rd of August, 1914. These officers and men after being called into actual service are liable, under Section 5 of the Royal Naval Reserve Volunteer Act of 1859, to such service for the term of three years from the time of coming into actual service, and at the expiration of such period are entitled to be discharged from actual service. That period expires on the 3rd of August next in the case of men already in the Reserve on the 3rd of August, 1914. But a proviso of Section 5 of the Act of 1859 enacts that in an emergency it may be declared by Royal Proclamation that those who at the time of the Proclamation are in actual service shall continue in it for a period of five years from the date of their respectively coming into actual service. That proviso to Section 5 of the Act of 1859 is as follows: "Provided always that it shall be lawful for Her Majesty, in case she sees fit, on any emergency by proclamation to declare that such Volunteers as may at the date of such Proclamation be in actual service as aforesaid shall continue in such actual service for the period of five years from the date of their respectively coming into actual service if their services be so long required, and such volunteers shall not be entitled to claim their discharge during such period, and every such volunteer who may be in actual service at the date of such Proclamation shall be liable to such service accordingly .…" That proviso applies to the Royal Naval Reserve and the Royal Fleet Reserve, but by Sub-section (1) of Clause 1 of the Naval Forces Act, 1903, the Royal Naval Volunteeer Reserve are expressly excluded from it. The Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve therefore under that Act are only called upon to serve for three years after mobilisation, or from the date of actual entry into the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve in the case of the majority, who in point of fact have entered since the outbreak of war. We are therefore in this position: we can before the 3rd of August seek authority to issue a Royal Proclamation calling upon the Royal Naval Reserve and the Royal Fleet Reserve to give two years' further service if so long required, but Section 1 of the Naval Forces Act, 1903, as it stands precludes us from issuing such a Proclamation in respect of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve.
This Bill provides that, notwithstanding anything in the Naval Forces Act (1903) we shall be empowered to include the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve as well as the Royal Naval Reserve and the Royal Fleet Reserve in the Proclamation extending service for two years further if so long required. We should propose to seek authority to issue this Proclamation in its all-embracing form before the 3rd of August, 1917. I should add that in the case of Reservists a payment of 2d. a day becomes payable from the date from which their services are extended. This date is, speaking generally, the 3rd of August, 1917, in the case of those in the Reserve on the outbreak of war, and three years from the date of entry in the case of those joining the Reserve subsequently. This payment will be made to those whose services are extended by the present Bill. I hope the House will give us the Second Reading, and as the matter is so extremely simple I hope I am not making too great a draft upon the good will of the House if I ask the House to take the further stages now.
Question put, and agreed to
Bill read a second time.
Resolved, "That this House will immediately resolve itself into Committee on the Bill."— [Dr. Macnamara.]
Bill accordingly considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.
Charity Bills
Church Lands (Bristol, St. Thomas) Charity,
Essex and Herts Clergy Charity,
Birmingham Churches Fund Charity,
Congregational Chapels Charities,
Baptist Chapel Charities,
Presbyterian Church (Crook) Charity.
Bills read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Tomorrow.— [Lord E. Talbot.]
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Imperial Conference
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
10.0 P.M.
I rise to bring forward certain questions relating to the Imperial Conference. On a former occasion, when I desired to bring this matter to the attention of the House I was counted out, and that may have been considered to be a triumph for those to whom my views on this question are so distasteful. But remember this, Mr. Speaker, that the reports of the Debates of this House do not simply rest with this House. They go to the Dominions, and it will be read in a very different fashion in the Dominions that, when questions are being weighed of such vital interest to such young communities, instead of meeting the issue fairly and squarely with a sincere desire to examine them on their merits, the only action of the reactionaries in this House is to count the Member out who dares to raise the questions at all. There is an old legal aphorism: "In ambiguity lies fraud and in concealment lies weakness," and the true reason for the reluctance to hear these views, and meet them face to face, is that those who oppose them know that when once attacked by the light of reason their sham tradition, and make believe, and superstition vanish. We have now reached a turning point in the civilisation of the world. This mighty war which is now raging, so wonderful in many of its aspects—
Notice taken that forty Members were not present. House counted—
I shall bring this matter up again in a more determined form than ever— and forty Members not being present,
The House was adjourned at Four minutes after Ten o'clock till To-morrow.