House of Commons
Wednesday, May 23, 1917
Private Business
Gas and Water Provisional Orders Bill,
Land Drainage (Wistow) Provisional Order Bill,
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill,
Read a second time, and committed.
Isle of Man (Taxation)
I beg to present a Petition from certain residents in the Isle of Man, calling attention to certain taxes imposed upon the Isle of Man and praying that the Constitution of the Isle of Man may be suspended, and that meanwhile a representative from the Isle of Man should sit in this House.
Oral Answers to Questions
War
Imperial Conference
Statement by Mr. Chamberlain
asked the Secretary of State for India what modification in the position of India in relation to the Empire have been effected as a result of the recent Imperial Conference?
In answering my hon. Friend's question it will be convenient to consider together the results, so far as published, of the Imperial War Cabinet and the Imperial War Conference. As my hon. Friend is aware, the Imperial War Conference recommended to the Governments concerned that steps should be taken to amend the constitution of the Imperial Conference so that India should be represented at future sittings with the same right of speech and vote as is accorded to the representatives of the other Governments. Further, India will be represented at the Annual Session of the Imperial Cabinet by a nominee of the Government of India as well as by the Secretary of State for India, who will sit as one of the British Ministers specially concerned with Imperial affairs. These decisions mark an immense advance in the position of India in the Empire. They admit the Government of India to full partnership in the councils of the Empire with the other Governments represented at them.
The Imperial War Conference also had under consideration the position of Indians in the Empire as distinct from the position of India herself. In dealing with the difficult problems to which this question has given rise they accepted the principle of reciprocity, and commended to the favourable consideration of the Governments represented a memorandum which had been laid before the Conference by the representatives of India. This memorandum will be printed in the Blue Book which I hope will be published in a few days.
I should add that, though the question of indentured emigration was not considered in the Conference, we took advantage of the presence of the representatives of India in London to discuss this question informally with the Secretary of State for the Colonies and his advisers. My hon. Friend is aware that it was agreed some time ago that the system of indentured emigration should be brought to an end within a limited time. Owing to the exigencies of the War, the recruitment of indentured labour has already been stopped and it will not be revived. I am glad to say that the informal Conference already held makes it probable that a satisfactory solution of this difficult question will be reached by the Interdepartmental Conference, over which Lord Islington is going to preside.
The question of the supply of labour to, and the settlement of Indians in, the tropical Colonies which specially require such labour is, of course, wholly distinct from the problems of Indian emigration as affecting the self-governing Dominions of which I have already spoken. In relation to these Dominions the representatives of India recognised the right of each Dominion to settle its own immigration laws, whether as regards emigrants from Asia or from Europe, and we do not claim an unrestricted right of settlement for Indians. What we asked was that, in the first place, such questions should be treated on a footing of reciprocity; in the second place, that British Asiatics should be at least as favourably treated as alien Asiatics; thirdly, that facilities for travel and study, as apart from settlement, should be freely given; and, lastly, that sympathetic attention should be given to the condition of those Indians who had already been permitted to settle in the Dominions.
I presume that the representative of India, whom the right hon. Gentleman mentioned, will not necessarily be a native of India, but a native of Europe, as the case may be, according to the discretion of the Governor-General in Council?
I assume the hon. Gentleman is referring to the representative of the Government of India in future Sessions of the Imperial War Cabinet. That Cabinet laid down no rule as to race or qualifications, but we clearly contemplated that, except under peculiar circumstances, that representative would be an Indian.
Will it be necessary to submit any of these changes to the consideration of this Parliament, or can they be effected otherwise without being submitted?
No, Sir; but if the assent of Parliament were necessary, I am quite certain it would be heartily given, but it is not required to carry any of them into effect.
Indian Civil Service
Officers With His Majesty's Forces
asked the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to the aspersions thrown upon the officers of the various Civil Services in India as shirking military training and evading service in the Army; what proportion of these officials have been spared for military duty; whether it is possible to spare a larger number; and whether leave has been practically suspended in India?
I have no knowledge of any such aspersions, but, if made, they can only have come from quarters unfamiliar with the facts. Exact figures are not available, but more than 300 officers on leave in this country since the beginning of the War have sought and have been granted permission to take up war work, about half going on active service. Twenty-one have been killed or have died of wounds.
In India more than 100 members of the Indian Civil Service alone have joined the Indian Army Reserve and upwards of thirty have gone on active service.
Owing to the urgent requirements of the civil administration, the Government of India have been obliged to limit the number of officers permitted to undertake military duties and to curtail leave.
Did the right hon. Gentleman notice in the papers the other day that a retired Indian Civil Service officer had been killed in action at the front as a sub-lieutenant at the age of forty-nine?
Yes, Sir; I think that was so. I think he is probably included in the number I gave.
Is it not a fact that a great number of these gentlemen who are members of the Indian Civil Service have gone over and are fighting at the front, not with the Indian Army alone but even with our own Army, and are sacrificing their position and prospects?
Yes, Sir; I said so. I welcome the indignation shown in all quarters of the House at such aspersions on a great Service. I do not believe there is a man in the British service in India who would not have gone to the front if his duty had not necessitated him remaining elsewhere.
German Corpse Utilisation Establishments
asked whether the text of the paragraph in the Army daily orders issued by headquarters of the Sixth German Army on 21st December, 1916, which affords evidence that human bodies are sent to the corpse utilisation establishments, has been, or will be, translated and widely disseminated throughout the British-Indian Empire?
The text of the paragraph referred to has been published in the Press, and will be available to the public in India through the usual channels.
Java Tea
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has considered or will consider the propriety of prohibiting or obtaining, in concert with the Secretary of State for the Colonies, the prohibition of the import into Australia of Java tea in favour of tea from India and Ceylon, of which about 100,000,000 lbs. must now be stored in the country of production, or seek new markets other than those of the United Kingdom?
The matter is one entirely within the discretion of the Commonwealth Government. If that Government should see fit to give an advantage to Indian tea over the teas of foreign countries, I need not say that I should welcome such action.
Will the right hon. Gentleman go a step further, and in consultation with the Colonial Office make any such suggestion possible?
:No, Sir; I do not think that I could usefully act in regard to this particular industry. The Imperial Conference came to certain resolutions on this subject which have already been published, but it was general and was not in reference to a particular industry.
Military Service
Indian Army Reserve Corps
asked whether the majority of the 3,000 officers in the Indian Army Reserve Corps are lieutenants of middle age, with families, who have given up lucrative appointments in India, and that for them the modified time scale of promotion is of little avail because their services are only required for the period of the War, so that even an officer who got his Commission as early as August, 1914, can only get promotion in August, 1918; that under these circumstances promotion for such officers should preferably be given for merit in the field and should be permanent and with the pay of the rank and not of a temporary character; and that officers who have hitherto been promoted temporarily and have lost their rank owing to wounds or sickness should be confirmed in their higher rank with retrospective pay; and whether he will consider the propriety of granting such concessions as are herein indicated?
The Indian Army Reserve of Officers, like the British Army Reserve and the New Army, contains no doubt a considerable proportion of officers whose age is higher, relatively, to their rank than that of Regular officers, but I am unable to regard this as a reason for the general grant of more rapid promotion. The rules provide for accelerated permanent promotion in cases specially recommended; but acting and temporary promotion during tenure of particular appointments must be subject to the same conditions as in the case of Regular officers.
Review of Exceptions
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether men who have already been rejected on primary military examination are being called up for re-examination under the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act; and why men whose state of health was so bad that they were placed in this category are being recalled?
Men who were previously rejected on any grounds whatever are being issued with a Statutory Order under the Review of Exceptions Act. There is no intention, however, of utilising the services for the Army of men whose state of health or physical disabilities will not permit of their undertaking military service. I should like to remind my hon. Friend that many men were rejected at the primary military examination in the earlier days of the War on quite inadequate grounds and that the country requires their services now should they be found medically fit.
Is my hon. Friend aware that since the men have, got primary rejections because it is obvious without examining them at all that they are utterly unfit, and are they to be called up?
Yes.
What is the good of taking these men away from their work for many hours for a medical examination when it is quite obvious without consulting a doctor that they are absolutely useless for the Army? I intend to raise this question on the Adjournment for Whitsuntide.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether a discharged man recalled for examination under the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act can insist upon the Medical Board producing his medical history?
The answer is in the negative.
Have not the medical boards in their possession the medical history of a man who has already appeared several times before them, and why should they not take that when a man is recalled for examination without examining the man?
That is not the question I was asked. My hon. Friend asked me whether a discharged man could insist upon the medical board producing his medical history, and I replied that he cannot.
Why cannot he do it?
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether men who have been discharged as medically unfit from an officers' training corps will, if called up and passed fit for military service under the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act, be eligible for cadet corps?
I assume that my hon. Friend refers to the Artists and Inns of Court Officers' Training Corps. A man discharged from one of these as medically unfit, if called up for military service and found to be in one of the higher medical categories, could be re-enlisted in his former unit on application to the War Office.
Medical Examinations
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the authorities intend to persist in calling up Mr. John Lawrence Bouts, who is suffering from defective vision, right and left eyes, from defective hearing, from angina pectoris, and left varicocele, in spite of the medical certificates produced from three different medical men and in spite of the fact that the man will almost certainly die as a result of any severe-training?
If my hon. Friend will furnish me with the information to enable me to identify the gentleman to whom the question refers, I will cause inquiries to be made, and inform him of the result.
Is my hon. Friend aware that I have already given him that information, and that he has had it for several days?
My hon. Friend has given me so much information.
Is it not a fact that my hon. Friend has that specific information, and can he not get somebody to prepare his answers to questions properly?
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War (1) if he will have immediate inquiry made into the case of Corporal Miller, No. 31830, 6/7th Royal Scots Fusiliers, who was taken under escort from Whalley Hospital on 12th May to Southampton and put into the guardroom and then sent to France on 15th May; and will he ascertain what charge there was against this soldier, and why a soldier who was in an unfit physical condition, suffering from trench feet, was taken practically straight from hospital to France; (2) if he is aware that men in the Army Service Corps, Blackheath Camp, who have been classified B 1, are being ordered to parade for medical inspection; that the inspection consists of what is called doubling for 20 yards, and that every man who does not drop dead under this test is re-classified A 1; and what steps he proposes to take to put a stop to this method of medical re-examination?
A report has been called for as to the matters raised in this and the next question, and I will write to my hon. Friend as soon as I am in a position to do so.
Will the hon. Gentleman accelerate matters in the case of Miller?
I will do my best.
Silver Badges
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether service badge men recalled to the Colours will be permitted to wear their silver badges when they are called up
If my hon. Friend refers to wearing silver badges with uniform, the answer is in the negative.
Is my hon. Friend prepared to say that the War Office position is that men who have already been awarded the silver badge by the King are not to be allowed to wear it when recalled to the Colours; and, if they are not, why?
The silver badge was given to a man who has served in the Army and who is no longer in uniform.
Epileptics (Discharge)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether there is an Army Order in existence which forbids the discharge of epileptics from the Army; and, if so, what is its number and date of issue?
The instructions issued on 9th December on this point lay down that a soldier suffering from epilepsy will not be discharged on that account alone, unless his incapacity is such as to unfit him for any military employment suitable to C 3 men. He will be reclassified in a category from which men are eligible for transfer to Class P or P (T) of the Reserve.
In view of that, can my hon. Friend tell me, seeing that in that case he retains epileptics, why, if these men are pensionable, he says that the disease is not attributable to service?
Cases Under Inquiry
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War (1) whether Victor Hawkins, in receipt of 13s. 9d. a week disability pension, has been called up and classified C 3 under the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act; whether this is the case already submitted to the War Office concerning which the Member for East Edinburgh was informed that the man need have no apprehension as to the result of re-examination; what he proposes to do in the circumstances; (2) whether, on the 9th and 10th May, a warder in charge of six patients from an asylum attended Warley medical board for re-examination; and what was the result of the examination?
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether Mr. G. Frost, of 46, Aden Grove, Stoke Newington, was rejected on re-examination by the Shoreditch medical board, on 1st September, 1916, as unfit for any form of military service; whether he was not given the discharge to which he was entitled under the Army Council Instruction of 13th July, 1916, that in a letter, dated 17th April, 1917, the Under-Secretary for War informed the hon. Member for the Bridgeton Division of Glasgow that the recruiting officer would issue Army Form B 2,079 to Mr. Frost as soon as certain documents were received, and that no certificate of discharge has yet been issued to Mr. Frost, but that he has been summoned for re-examination on 26th May; and whether, in view of the fact that Mr. Frost is entitled not to be re-examined until six months after the date of his discharge, he will cancel the notice for re-examination and cause a discharge to be issued to him?
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War (1) why the application of the parents of Private Hill, No. 2534, D Company, 14th Platoon, 92nd Training Reserve Battalion, Chisledon Camp, for his release from the Army has not been granted, seeing that this boy is only fifteen years and seven months old and that he was obviously not more than that age, yet the recruiting officer accepted him; (2) if he will make careful inquiries into the conduct of the military medical board in passing into the Army Private — No. 31476, C Company, 3rd Battalion, Gloucester Regiment, Milstead Camp, whose medical history is that he has been discharged as incurable from Bristol General Hospital suffering from chronic Bright's disease, and that within the last three years he has been continuously out of work owing to illness for a period of eighteen months, that when he attested he was classed C 3 kidney complaint, V. D. H., and was sent as a clerk to the office of the medical staff, and was for weeks a patient in the southern base hospital, and he has now been passed for general service by a medical board without the slightest examination?
I am afraid that in each of these questions it is necessary to secure reports on the points raised. I will communicate with my hon. Friends as to the points raised as soon as I am in a position to do so.
Cannot my hon. Friend give instructions from the War Office that men who are at the present moment in lunatic asylums, discharged from the Army, should not be recalled for re-examination, and that a simple letter from the superintendent of these asylums to the recruiting officer should serve, so that these men should not suffer this further indignity?
I am not quite sure that I can accept my hon. Friend's statement of fact.
It is so.
All these men have to do when they get the form is to fill in the statement on the back.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that when these forms are returned so filled in, the recruiting officer refuses to take any notice of them? Will he give instructions that the terms of the law are to be carried out?
How can lunatics fill up forms?
Seeing that my hon. Friend has had several months' notice of question 27, can he now state whether this man will receive the discharge which in his letter to me a month ago he promised me he should receive?
If I ever said that in a letter to my hon. Friend it would be done.
Will the hon. Gentleman answer the question on the Paper: as this man has been recalled, will he cancel the call up for re-examination until be gets his discharge and then postpone the examination until six months after the discharge?
I think my hon. Friend's statement must be contradictory. I cannot understand now a man who is not discharged can be called up for re-examination.
Mr. SCOTT rose—
We must have regard to the number of questions on the Paper.
Irish Labourers
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the Irish labourers of military age who come over to Scotland for potato digging during this summer and remain there for five or six months are to be exempt from military service?
Irish labourers who come over to Scotland for the purpose of potato digging during the summer are covered by the arrangements entered into between the War Office and the Board of Trade, and, as such, on application to an Employment Exchange will be given cards as evidence that they are ordinarily resident in Ireland and only temporarily resident in Great Britain for the purpose of being employed upon agriculture.
Military Raid (East London)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to a raid on Friday night last in the East End of London, when gangs of police and Australian soldiers armed with knuckledusters entered a number of billiard clubs and public restaurants, stopped tramcars, and seized every man there and arrested numbers of men in the street; whether several hundreds were arrested and kept in crowded cells for a large part of the night; and how many persons evading their military obligations were discovered by this process?
I cannot at present answer this question. I have called for a report.
Will my hon. Friend also inquire how many of these policemen were men of military age?
When shall I put the question again?
On Friday.
May I have an answer to my question?
I have already called on the next question.
Soldiers Under Twenty-One Years
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will supply the number of soldiers now serving at each of the following ages: eighteen, nineteen, and twenty?
I am afraid that I cannot supply this information.
Disabled Men (Employment)
asked whether there exists any national organisation, either supported or subsidised by the State, for the purpose of finding employment for men who have been discharged from the Services through wounds or illness?
Yes, Sir. The work of finding suitable employment for men who have been discharged from the Services through wounds or illness is carried out by the Employment Exchanges of the Ministry of Labour and the Local War Pensions Committee of the War Pensions Statutory Committee. Arrangements have been made by which the Admiralty and War Office supply the Employment Exchanges and the War Pensions Committee with particulars of men about to be discharged, and I think I may say that the joint efforts of these bodies to find the men suitable employment have been very successful.
Does this organisation give temporary relief before they find employment?
That does not come within my scope.
French Subject
asked the Home Secretary why a deportation order has been issued or is about to be issued for the return to France of René Keller, a French subject of military age, in view of the fact that Keller has offered to enlist in the British Army and has been given an identity book marked to the effect that he may be accepted for the Army Service Corps; and whether, in view of the fact that Keller has permanently established his home in this country and intends to become naturalised, he will be allowed to join the British Army in accordance with the declaration made by the Government to Parliament.
I must refer the hon. Member to the answer given with reference to this case on the 27th April by the Under-Secretary of State for War.
Mid-Scotland Canal Association
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the Mid- Scotland Canal Association has collected many data over a long series of years that might be of advantage to the Admiralty authorities entrusted with the examination of the strategic and commercial value and of the cost and route of a canal across Scotland; and whether he will make use of the Association in his inquiries?
The Admiralty have, I think, already had before them such data as are necessary to form an opinion on the naval aspects of the proposed canal. Its economic aspects are, I need hardly point out, not a matter for the Admiralty.
Can my right hon. Friend say whether any decision has been come to with regard to the canal?
No, I think not.
May we take it that the Admiralty now admit that this canal would have been of great strategical importance during this War, and will they, therefore, take it into consideration in the future?
Perhaps my hon. Friend will put down the question.
May I ask whether due regard will be given to the commercial value of the canal in order that the two rival routes may have consideration given them both from the naval as well as the commercial aspect?
We are concerned only with the naval aspect of the matter. I have no doubt that those responsible will give proper consideration to the commercial interests involved.
Has any decision been arrived at as to the cutting of this canal?
No, I think not.
Naval War Staff
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty, in view of their great experience of war staff work, whether the advice of the imperial general staff was sought when the naval war staff was formed in 1912 or on the occasion of its recent reconstruction?
The general staff were consulted informally on both occasions.
Sailors' Messing Allowance
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether, having regard to the fact that a married ordinary seaman who has allotted 5s. a week to his wife has only 3s. 9d. a week and his messing allowance of 5d. a day remaining, and that owing to increased prices the messing allowance has become insufficient, with the result that ordinary seamen can scarcely avoid additional messing bills amounting to 5s. a month or more, he will make representations in the proper quarter in favour of the messing allowance being increased at an early date to meet the increase in prices that has taken place since the allowance of 5d. a day for messing allowance was fixed?
The staple articles of a seaman's diet are provided by the standard daily ration, which consists mainly of bread, meat, vegetables, sugar, tea, chocolate, condensed milk, and jam. Over and above that comes the messing allowance, the two together being a survival, in modified form, of the old complete fixed daily ration and "savings" system. Before the War, this messing allowance was at the rate of 4d. a day. It was increased by ½d. early in the War, and another ld. has since been added to compensate for reduction in the amount of bread and sugar provided in the standard daily ration. It, therefore, now stands at 5½. a day. Although the prices of goods sold in the canteens on board ship have increased, the prices charged for Government provisions, which the men can purchase out of their messing allowance, are the same now as before the War. These consist, for example, of fresh and tinned meats, tinned salmon, bread and flour, sugar, tea, coffee, jam, condensed milk, dried beans and peas, etc. No representation has been received from the Fleet that the present rate of messing allowance is inadequate, and, having regard to the concession mentioned above, I doubt whether there is justification at present for undertaking the expense involved in my hon. Friend's suggestion. But, without giving any undertaking, the matter shall be further investigated
Royal Navy (Boy Ratings)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if boys in the Navy who are under eighteen, when they are allowed home on leave, have frequently to pay the same fares on the railways as if they were men; and if he will arrange to allow them to travel on the railways at reduced fares as compared with the fares for men belonging to the Navy?
Boys under training are entitled when proceeding on leave to travel at the special cheap rate of half single fare for the double journey. After completion of training, they are entitled to the same privilege fare as other ratings, namely, single fare for the double journey. In each case the fare is calculated at the rate in operation prior to 1st January last, i.e., it is not subject to the 50 per cent. increase charged to the general public. The boys participate in all the free travelling facilities which are granted to other ratings. The question of extending to all boy ratings the special cheap fare which is now in operation for boys under training is receiving consideration. But I can give no undertaking in the matter.
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what arrangements the Admiralty have made for pensioning naval ratings whose first time for pensions, twenty-two years, terminated prior to hostilities breaking out, and who subsequently re-engaged for a further period of five years, this five years having expired, such expiry synchronising with the age of 50 being reached?
There is a misprint in the question; but it presumably relates to men who completed time for pension before 2nd August, 1914, and re-engaged for a further five years, which period has since expired. In normal cases such men would be only about forty-five years of age on the completion of the further engagement referred to, and not fifty years of age, as suggested. As already stated in previous replies to various hon. Members, the services of such men are retained under the Royal Proclamation of 3rd August, 1914, made in pursuance of the Naval Enlistment Act of 1853. I may add that the position of these men, and of men who have completed time for pension since the outbreak of war, is now under consideration at the Admiralty.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office (1) if he is aware that, in the case of a Post Office employé who joined the Army and whose wife and three children were allowed 8s. 3d. per week in order to bring the man's Army pay and allowances up to his pre-war pay, on the 15th January when the Army separation allowance was increased by 5s. per week the Post Office allowance was reduced by 5s. per week, thus depriving his wife and children of any benefit of the increased separation allowance; if this was done with the sanction of the War Office; (2) if he is aware that, in the case of a Post Office employé who joined the Army and whose wife and three children were allowed 8s. 3d. weekly in order to bring the man's Army pay and allowances up to his pre-war pay, on the 15th January, when the Army separation allowance was increased by 5s. per week, the Post Office allowance was reduced by 5s. per week; can he give any explanation; and (3), if he is aware that in the case of a wife of a Post Office employé to whom 8s. 8d. had been allowed, the Post Office suddenly sent a notice to say that this payment ought to have been reduced to 3s. 8d. per week as from the 15th January, and demanding that the extra Army allowance of 5s. per week for four weeks should be forwarded to the Post Office and, further, that when this woman stated that she could not afford to repay the whole sum at once but offered to pay it back by weekly instalments, that her request was refused and she was informed that she would receive no pay until the Post Office instructions had been complied with; and will he say what action he will take in this case?
Under the standing Regulations, married Post Office servants, like other Civil servants, are allowed the balance of their civil pay after deduction of 7s. a week in respect of Army pay and of the actual amount of the separation allowances. Any increase in the separation allowances necessarily, therefore, results in a corresponding de- crease of the balance of civil pay. The first instalments of the increased allowances were paid by the War Office four weeks in arrears; and to prevent hardship in the case of married Post Office servants I arranged for the corresponding deductions from the balance of civil pay also to be deferred for four weeks on the understanding that the over-payments would be refunded when the War Office paid the arrears of the separation allowances. The recipients should have had no difficulty in complying with the instructions given to them in the matter.
Royal Naval Reserve
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty why Chief Engine-room Artificer Hogge was promoted, seeing that he only joined the Royal Naval Reserve on the outbreak of war, he having only served twelve months in the "Laforey," torpedo-boat destroyer, and after that serving in His Majesty's ship "Blenheim," a repair ship, working solely at his trade of coppersmith during this time, and that he was then, in November, 1916, promoted to chief engine-room artificer, Royal Naval Reserve, and placed in authority over two engine-room artificers both of whom were coppersmiths, one of whom had sixteen years' service and the other twelve years' service, this chief engine-room artificer being promoted direct from a home depot and not having passed the examination for chief engine-room artificer?
The question apparently refers to Thomas A. Hogge. His conduct and ability having been considered in every way most satisfactory, he was, as stated, promoted to the rank of chief engine-room artificer, the examination in the circumstances being waived.
Prisoners (Exchange)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware that French and Belgian prisoners of war with only one arm, one leg, or one eye have been exchanged by Germany with their men similarly afflicted; and if he will endeavour to secure the same privileges for English prisoners under similar conditions?
On 13th January last a proposal was made to the German Government to the effect that British and German combatant prisoners of war should be entitled to repatriation on the same grounds as were already mutually accepted in the case of French and German prisoners. The new proposal is embodied in a schedule rather less severe than that at present in force, and should therefore bring about the release of a somewhat larger number of prisoners if agreed to. It is, however, limited to those who are judged to be totally incapable of further service. I should add that under the existing schedule the loss of a limb is held to be sufficient ground for release, as is also the loss of an eye if the other eye is affected. No reply has been received from the German Government to the new proposal, and they have been urged to send one. It may be added that the present schedule is the result of an agreement made with the German Government in December, 1914.
Russia
Provisional Government
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the declaration issued by the new Provisional Government of Russia, that it adopts openly as its aim the re-establishment of a general peace which shall not tend towards either domination over other nations or the seizure of their national possessions or the violent usurpation of their territories, a peace without annexations or indemnities; and, in view of this more definite statement of Russia's aims, can he state whether the other Allies will continue to refuse to consider terms of peace based on these principles?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, I have nothing to add to the general statement which I made to the House on the 16th instant.
May I ask the Noble Lord if it follows that the Allies are determined to continue the War on a policy of annexation in defiance of the wishes of the Russian Government?
No, Sir. The hon. Member knows perfectly well that is not the intention of this country and its Allies, and he only puts the question in order to add to the difficulties.
Has the Noble Lord's attention been called to the reception in Petrograd of his speech, and does he know that his speech has created these difficulties? His statement with regard to myself is a lie.
Council of Delegates
(by Private Notice) asked the Prime Minister whether he has yet received official information of the discouraging effect in Russia of the failure of the British Government, in the Debate of 16th May, to accept the policy of the Russian democracy as expressed by the Russian Government and the Council of Workmen's and Soldiers' Delegates, and whether any steps are being taken by the Government to remove this unfortunate impression?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. No intimation, official or otherwise, to the effect stated in the first part of the question has reached His Majesty's Government. I have, however, seen a telegram from Petrograd in the Press which makes certain criticisms on the declarations made by the British Government in the Debate of the 16th. The criticisms proceed on an entire misconception of what was then stated, and it is difficult to believe that they can be founded on any decently accurate report of them.
The whole foundation of the telegram is that I criticised the programme of the Council of Delegates. The House will recollect that I expressly disclaimed any such intention; that, on the contrary, accepting, as I did, the interpretation placed on Russian statements by the hon. Member for Leicester, I made it clear that British aims in the War were in complete harmony with those of our Russian Allies; and I laid special stress on the fact that our aims and aspirations were dictated solely by our determination to secure a peace founded on national liberty and international amity, and that all Imperialistic aims based on force or conquest were completely absent from our programme. I would emphasise the fact that the most recent declaration of the reconstituted Government of Russia is in complete harmony with this policy.
Will my Noble Friend take steps to see that his very conciliatory speech on that occasion is circulated in neutral countries, and also in Russia?
It is scarcely for me to do that. I have no doubt that Colonel Buchan will deal with that matter.
In order to dissipate all this misunderstanding, would it not be well to send a special Embassy to Russia composed of men inspired with the great idea of republicanism?
There is only one such Member in this House.
Will my Noble Friend see that an adequate report of his speech is sent not only to neutral countries, but to our Allies, since there is more than a suspicion that the methods previously taken by our own Government and the French Government have been hopelessly inadequate?
The difficulty of conveying to other countries properly the true atmosphere and spirit of what is said in this House is very familiar to me. Every step that can be taken will be taken to dissipate misunderstanding on this matter, which, I quite agree, is of vital importance.
Can the Noble Lord say what are the means taken for disseminating false information?
We all have our suspicions.
Questions
Ceylon
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has seen a copy of the letter issued by Mr. C. L. Tranchell, superintendent of police, from his office at Kandy, Ceylon, on 10th June, 1915, to an employer of labour who applied for permission to send labourers to an outlying farm, refusing the permission, and adding that if this order was disregarded the coolies were liable to be shot on sight and the writer charged by court-martial; will he say on what law this superintendent based his threat to shoot the labourer on sight; does that law expose an applicant for permission to trial by court-martial; and what official position he now occupies?
I have seen what purports to be a copy of this letter. Regulations had been issued under martial-law ordering all persons to remain in their vilages, and it was open to any police officer to issue a warning against disregarding the Regulations. Mr. Tranchell holds the appointment of superintendent of police.
Would the Regulations enable a police officer to shoot people at sight?
Representation of the People Bill
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether voters in constituencies which under the instructions issued to the Boundary Commissioners will cease to have separate representation will be granted an opportunity to lay before the Commission their views as to the future boundaries of their constituencies; and what opportunities the House will be given to discuss the recommendations of the Commission?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The recommendations of the Commission can be discussed on the consideration of Clause 27 of the Bill and of the Fourth Schedule.
Will instructions be given that in each case where new boundaries are to be made there may be a public inquiry at which representative bodies may put forward their views?
That was the course followed in 1884 and 1885, and I think it most probable that the Commission will follow that course on this occasion.
Will it be open to the Commission themselves to decide this question, or will instructions be given by the Home Office or the Government that wherever representations are made a public inquiry shall be allowed?
I do not think that any instructions will be necessary. I happen to know that the matter is under the consideration of the Commission.
Universities Representation
asked the Home Secretary whether each of the universities and combinations of universities to which reference is made in Clause 27, Sub-section (3), of the Representation of the People Bill will be inserted in the Third Part of the Fourth Schedule of the Bill before the Bill comes to be considered in Committee; and, if not, whether he will indicate how an opportunity will be afforded to Members of the House to amend or discuss the provisions for the future representation in Parliament of the University of London and of other universities as proposed in the Report of the Speaker's Conference?
These particulars will be put upon the Amendment Paper before Clause 27 of the Bill is considered in Committee, and there will be an opportunity of discussing the matter upon that Clause and on consideration of the Fourth Schedule.
Boundary Commission
asked the Home Secretary under what statutory or other power his warrant of appointment dated the 14th May, 1917, is signed appointing certain gentlemen to act as Commissioners to determine the number of members to be assigned to the several counties and boroughs in England and Wales and the boundaries of such counties and boroughs and divisions thereof; and whether the House will have an opportunity of discussing the instructions contained in such warrant?
The Boundary Commissioners are not appointed under any statutory power, but for the purpose of advising as to the boundaries of constituencies and the number of members to be assigned to each constituency. These particulars, when determined by the Boundary Commissioners, will be placed upon the Amendment Paper with a view to their insertion in the Bill, and will then be open to discussion in Committee. In the appointment of the Commissioners the procedure adopted in 1884-5 has been followed.
Surplus Votes (Allocation)
asked the Home Secretary whether, before the proportional representation provisions of the Representation of the People Bill are reached, he will circulate a White Paper showing what method is proposed for the reallocation of the surplus voting papers or surplus votes of an elected candidate who has more votes than the necessary quota; and what is the proposed arrangement for by-elections in multi-member constituencies?
The method of allocating surplus votes will be prescribed by Order in Council under Section 15, Sub-section (4), of the Bill, and I hope before that Clause is reached in Committee to circulate a White Paper containing draft regulations for the purpose. In answer to the last part of the question, the provisions for proportional representation apply only to General Elections. At by-elections the usual procedure would be followed.
Dublin Remount Depots (Employes)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been drawn to the treatment of employés in remount depots in Dublin; if he will cause inquiries to be made into the treatment of James Marsh, up to lately employed as groom at Island Bridge; if this man met with an accident at Arbour Hill in June last and received half-pay for only six months, and is now a cripple for life; what compensation the Government propose to give this man to enable him to provide for his wife and seven children; and if there are a number of similar cases where men after accident were thrown out without compensation?
As a medical board which examined this man on 4th December, 1916, reported that he was fit to work, no further compensation was payable to him. But if his condition has become bad again as the result of the injury, his case will be reconsidered.
Army Rations (Scale)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if the Army rations have been reduced in scale, either for men on active service or for those on duty in this country; and, if so, what was the former scale and what is the present scale?
Some modifications in the scale of rations have been made, the principal of which are as follows:
For troops at home, as from 1st March, the bread ration has been reduced from 16 ozs. to 14 ozs.
For troops in France no change has been made in the previous scale of 1 1b. of meat and 1 lb. of bread for troops in the firing line.
For line of communication units, however, the scale has been reduced, as from 17th April, from 16 ozs. to 12 ozs. of meat, from 16 ozs. to 14 ozs. of bread, from 3 ozs. to 2 ozs. of sugar, from 4 ozs. to 3 ozs. of bacon.
Are we to understand that there is no other reduction than in bread for the home troops?
Southern Palestine Operations
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he can make any statement as to the results of the recent fighting, and as to the present position of the British Forces, in Palestine?
asked the Prime Minister if he can make any statement as to the operations in Palestine?
As already announced, the operations in Southern Palestine which took place between the 17th and 19th April resulted, after heavy fighting, in the capture of the Turkish advanced positions in the vicinity of Gaza, and we are now in close touch with the enemy's main positions defending the town between the sea and Sheikh Abbas, a front of 14,000 yards. This position has been extended by a series of redoubts and trenches to Abu Hareira, 11 miles southeast of Gaza. The Turkish forces, which have been reinforced, have made good use of natural obstacles, and their main position in front of Gaza is one of great strength, while the left flank is protected by broken and waterless country. In view of these conditions, our progress has necessarily been slow and there has been no serious fighting since 19th April, but we have continued to gain ground and have organised and consolidated the positions captured in April.
Can my hon. Friend say whether the War Office is satisfied with the medical arrangements that are made there, and is it true or not that thousands have died there through want of attention?
I do not think the House will expect me to answer that offhand.
Packing Cases
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if the Director of Timber Supplies has appointed an Advisory Committee for England and Scotland to administer rules in connection with restriction in the use of packing cases; and, if so, why has Ireland not been given a representative, where the industry is practically at a standstill?
It has already been suggested to the linen exporters of Belfast that they should establish an Advisory Committee on the lines that have been followed at Manchester, Glasgow, and elsewhere.
Why are not the same facilities in regard to packing cases given to Belfast merchants that are so freely given to merchants in Manchester and Glasgow?
I do not think there is any difference at all.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in one case in my Constituency, owing to the fact that they cannot get packing cases, one firm is about to close down, unless they are able to get the facilities which are given in England and Scotland?
The hon. Member asked me if the Director of Timber Supplies will appoint an Advisory Committee, such as it is suggested he has appointed in the case of Great Britain. The Director of Timber Supplies has not appointed an Advisory Committee in respect of Great Britain. He has been in correspondence with chambers of commerce and other authoritative bodies of that kind, and he has made the same suggestion in the case of Ireland as he has made in the case of Great Britain.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there are quantities of food useful for human beings and for the Army, such as pressed sausages and pork, which are being held up in Ireland owing to the lack of packing cases?
Has the hon. Gentleman communicated with any authorities in Ireland in connection with this matter?
Yes. The Director of Timber Supplies has communicated, I understand, with representatives of the linen industry and others in Belfast.
Would the hon. Gentleman nominate somebody in the city of Dublin to deal with these purely Irish matters, because of the time it takes to get communications from the industrial centres in Ireland?
It is not a question of appointing anyone. We are trying to get the traders to organise themselves.
If the Chamber of Commerce of Belfast accept this committee and nominate a member of the committee in the same position as Bradford and Glasgow, will the Department accept the decision, because it is a very important matter?
It is not a question of nominating a member to a committee; it is a question of nominating the committee itself. That is all we have asked the trade in the various parts of the United Kingdom to do.
Why not a Director of Timber Supplies for Ireland? [HON. MEMBERS: "Home Rule!"]
Territorial Force (Medical Officers)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War (1) whether, notwithstanding that a field ambulance of the Territorial Forces is a definite unit even in peace time and its establishment is laid down as consisting of a lieutenant-colonel, two majors, and others, promotions to these posts are being withheld for long periods although suitable men are recommended for them; if so, whether this state of affairs will be remedied; (2) whether vacancies on the medical staffs of field ambulances of the Territorial Forces are frequently filled by promoting officers of the Royal Army Medical Corps (Regular Forces), to the exclusion of Territorial officers of longer service, notwithstanding that such officers have been recommended for promotion by their commanding officers; and whether, in fairness to medical men who gave their services to the Territorial Force before the War, promotions will be regulated by considerations of merit and of work performed; (3) whether all applications for promotion made on behalf of medical officers of the Territorial Forces who joined prior to the outbreak of War are now refused on the plea that promotions in the Royal Army Medical Corps are in abeyance; and whether steps will be taken to facilitate promotions which have been earned by long and faithful service?
It is not the fact that all promotions in the Royal Army Medical Corps (Territorial Force) are refused on the grounds stated. When suitable officers with the requisite qualifications, service, and experience are available, promotions are made. Only when such officers are not available for command are regular or temporary officers of the Royal Army Medical Corps brought in. Promotion in the Royal Army Medical Corps (Territorial Force) is now under consideration by the Committee of which my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee is chairman.
Will the hon. Gentleman have this question examined properly, as there is a widespread feeling amongst medical men of the Territorial Force that they have been at a disadvantage in having entered that force before the beginning of the War?
I will draw my right hon. Friend's attention to it.
Army Service Corps (Wheelers'pay)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he will state the reason why wheelers who have joined the Army Service Corps and were paid at the rate of 5s. per day have had their pay, since they went to France, reduced to 1s. 8d. per day; and whether, in view of the fact that these men were promised 5s. per day when they enlisted, he will restore the old rate of pay?
If the hon. Member will give me further particulars I will have inquiry made.
Soldiers (Loss of Salary)
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that Civil servants called to the Colours have their pay made up to them less the amount of their Army pay, he will consider making up the loss in the case of all other men serving who do not have this privilege and who are contributing out of their smaller pay taxes to pay for these advantages to men fighting alongside of them?
The hon. Member omits to take account of the fact that the State is the employer of the Civil servant.
Why, when we put a question to the Prime Minister on a matter of principle, do we get a reply from some other Minister on an administrative point? My question is one of policy to the Leader of the House. I will raise this on the Adjournment to-night.
Breweries (Control)
asked the Prime Minister whether any further extension of the control of breweries during the War by the Liquor Control Board or any other Board appointed by the Government, either with or without the view of their ultimate purchase by the State, will be deferred until this House has had full opportunity of discussing the matter?
No big scheme such as is suggested by my hon. Friend will be adopted without the knowledge of the House of Commons.
Is this prior to the adoption, or will it be discussed after it has been adopted?
I said it would not be adopted until it came before the House.
Enemy Outrages (Reprisals)
asked the Prime Minister whether he will state the reasons for the reluctance shown by the authorities to initiate air raids as a reprisal for the sinking of hospital ships and other enemy outrages?
I have no statement to make on the subject
Have we not put ourselves in a humiliating position by adopting a great principle and then on a question of expediency—
That seems to be a matter for argument.
Casualty Lists (Publication)
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that it has been stated on behalf of the Government that the publication of casualty lists in newspapers was rendered impossible by shortage of paper, and in view of the obligation to reduce as far as possible the period of suspense between the cessation of private correspondence and the receipt of information, and, seeing that the daily newspapers are prepared to negotiate the sale of at least half their columns for giving the required publicity, will he consider the advisability of taking advantage of this medium to ensure the publication of the casualty lists, and thereby relieve the condition of anxiety existing?
As the House is aware, the next-of-kin are always informed of casualties at the earliest possible moment. As to the wider notification of casualties I am in communication with the leading newspaper authorities and hope with their co-operation to find means of continuing some form of publication notwithstanding the shortage of paper supplies.
Is it a fact that these papers are not prepared to do it unless they are paid for it, and will the Government pay for it?
I am in communication with the authorities now.
Civil Aerial Transport Committee
asked the Prime Minister when it is proposed that the new Committee for considering the development of our air policy after the War shall have its first sitting; and whether its proceedings will be in secret or if it is proposed to lay any of its recommendations upon the Table?
The proceedings of the Civil Aerial Transport Committee which will meet immediately after Whitsuntide, will be, in any case for the present, entirely confidential. Until the nature of the Committee's recommendation is known it is not possible to answer the last part of the hon. Member's question.
Food Supplies
Increased Prices (Excess Profits)
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been directed to the figures recently issued by the Board of Trade showing that many food essentials have increased in price in some cases by 172 per cent.; whether his attention has been directed to the current market prices in London showing that the increase in retail prices in some cases reaches 400 per cent.; whether he has any information as to the persons or firms who are profiting by this increase: whether any proportion of the sums involved have been returned to the State as excess profits; and what means are being taken to ensure such return?
I have been asked to reply. The Board of Trade returns show increases in retail prices ranging from 56 per cent. for margarine to 172 per cent. for granulated sugar, and averaging 98 per cent. for all the principal articles of food, since the beginning of the War. The prices of some subsidiary articles of food have risen even more, but in London no article shows an increase approaching 400 per cent., with the exception of haricot beans. The liability for excess profits duty of the persons or firms who have profited by this increase will be ascertained in the usual manner. It is not a matter for the Ministry of Food.
Will they be selected for special treatment under the Excess Profits Duty?
Are any steps going to be taken to protect the poor people who have to pay these prices, whether they go in excess profits or not?
Yes; steps are perpetually being taken with that object, but they are by no means so easy as some hon. Members seem to imagine. There is a danger, of course, of taking such steps as would involve the disappearance of a number of these commodities from the market altogether.
If the hon. Gentleman finds it necessary in the public interest, will he still go on taking steps?
Is my hon. Friend aware that as a result of the Food Controller's instructions in relation to beans many City merchants have cancelled orders for beans, oatmeal, and other cereals, amounting to hundreds of thousands of bags, which food we shall not get in this country on account of the Food Controller taking over these things coming from abroad?
I cannot answer that precisely. It is clearly directed to Burmah beans. The Food Controller having since taken control of all beans at the source of supply, such an eventuality is not likely to occur in future.
I shall raise this on the Adjournment on Friday.
Pasture Lands (Ploughing)
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture if he has had his attention called to a resolution passed by the Lincolnshire Farmers' Union last Friday, to the effect that in the best interest of the nation it was inadvisable to plough up such a large proportion of permanent pasture until all possible means have been taken to increase the production of foodstuff on the existing arable land, and pointing out that thousands of acres of could be made to produce twice the amount per acre that is now obtained if sufficient artificial manure and labour were available, and that a very grave injury will be done to the great national industry of agriculture, with very doubtful results, by ploughing up such a large proportion of the grass land on which the flocks and herds of this country are reared; whether, in view of such an expression coming from the representative of the farmers in the premier agricultural county of England, he will cause immediate and searching inquiry to be made into the allegations; and, if he finds that they are borne out by fact, whether he will take such steps as will obviate the disaster feared by the Lincolnshire Farmers' Union?
The resolution in question has not yet reached the Board. The Board is convinced that increased production of food is urgently necessary as a measure of national security, and cannot be accomplished under present conditions without a considerable addition to the area of arable land.
Will it be left to the local agricultural committees in the various counties to decide what lands are to be broken up or what shall be left under grass?
Each war agricultural committee has been told the quota of land in their area which ought to be ploughed up for the 1918 crop.
Oatmeal
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether any representative members of the oatmeal trade in Scotland were consulted before the prices were fixed; and whether he intends to take any action in response to complaints which are reaching him that the prices fixed by him interfere with the food economy campaign?
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether his attention has been called to the dissatisfaction caused in Scotland owing to the price of oatmeal having been fixed by the Food Controller at 5½d. a pound, which represents a considerable advance on the previous high prices charged, and bears no fair relation to the price fixed for oats; and whether he will take steps to have the price reconsidered and fixed at a lower figure?
In view of the increase of the wholesale price of oatmeal in some cases to 52s. per cwt. ex mill, the Food Controller fixed a maximum price after consultation with persons familiar with the Scottish oatmeal trade. Now that the fixing of the price of oats has had time to affect the wholesale price of oatmeal, and holders of stocks bought at a higher rate have disposed of such stocks, it is proposed to reduce the maximum retail price of oatmeal to 4½d. in Scotland and 5d. in England and Ireland.
Can the hon. Gentleman say whether it is the case that several mills in Scotland are shut down owing to the impossibility of obtaining oats?
I am not in a position to reply definitely to that, but it is common knowledge that there is a scarcity of oats throughout the United Kingdom.
Will the hon. Gentleman point out to the Petrol Committee how very largely their action is responsible for increasing the consumption of oats by horses?
It hardly comes within my sphere, but I take it that petrol and oats are equally scarce.
Liquor Controller
asked the Prime Minister if he can now inform the House whom he has appointed as Liquor Controller?
No such appointment has been made.
Foreign Policy
asked the Prime Minister, if, having promised to lay all matters of foreign policy before the Dominion parliaments before acting, he will also treat the British House of Commons in the same way?
As I do not understand it, I cannot answer the hon. Member's question.
Fiscal System
asked the Prime Minister whether it was the Imperial Government that laid before the late Imperial Conference the proposals for an Imperial Parliament and that the Conference should request the United Kingdom to change its fiscal system to enable it to give a preference to the Dominions; and why he has not informed this House that the late Imperial Conference was asked to agree to an Imperial Parliament and to ask the United Kingdom to make changes in its fiscal system for the purpose of giving preference to the Dominions, and that both of the proposals were refused on behalf of Canada?
The Prime Minister has asked me to reply to these questions. The answer to both is that the Blue Book, which I hope will be published to-morrow, will show that there is no foundation for the hon. Member's suggestions.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on Friday last Sir Robert Borden, in the Canadian House of Commons, made a statement to the effect of the facts mentioned in the two questions?
I have not seen any such statement attributed to Sir Robert Borden, and I cannot help thinking that the hon. Gentleman has been grossly misled or that there has been a misreport, because both allegations contained in these questions are absolutely without foundation.
War Cabinet (Secretariat)
asked the Prime Minister who is the naval assistant to Colonel Hankey, the secretary to the War Cabinet; what naval officers are employed among his Secretariat or as liaison officers to the Admiralty; and how many Army officers besides Colonel Hankey are employed in the Secretariat or as liaison officers?
Fleet Paymaster Row is the naval assistant to Sir M. Hankey, and there is no other naval officer employed among the War Cabinet Secretariat or as a liaison officer. Six of the assistant secretaries hold military rank. There are no officers employed as liaison officers.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Fleet paymaster Row is not a combatant officer, and that there are seven military officers, according to his answer, associated with the Secretariat, and no naval combatant officer is? Is it the policy of the Admiralty or of the Minister that there shall be no naval officers on the Secretariat?
I do not know how it happens that there are so many who hold military rank, but, as a matter of fact, a number of them are temporary commissions. They have all been selected because of their usefulness for the work they are doing.
Will the Primè Minister consider the advisability of having at least one naval officer who understands the conduct of war associated with the Secretariat?
I shall speak to the Prime Minister about it, and consider whether such a change can be made.
Industrial Disputes
asked the Prime Minister if, having regard to the recent strikes, he contemplates reviewing the whole of the present machinery of the Ministry of munitions in relation to labour; and whether, in order to avoid future disturbances, he will consider the setting up of new machinery and the part that might be played in such machinery by local joint committees equally representative of employers and trade unionists?
The answer is in the negative.
Government of Ireland
South African Convention
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that in the South African Convention, which he has quoted as a precedent for the forthcoming Irish Convention, the individual Colonies between whom agreement was sought to be arrived at voted as separate units of equal weight irrespective of relative populations; whether, in this respect, the precedent will be followed by taking the votes of the various interests concerned as separate units, and especially the votes of the parties demanding and resisting respectively the exclusion of a part of Ireland from the Government of Ireland Act; and whether the constitution of the Convention will be so arranged as to enable the votes to be thus taken in accordance with the South African precedent?
It is intended that the delegates to the Convention should vote as individuals, as was the case in the South African Convention.
Lancashire Cotton Industry (Weavers' Wages)
asked the Prime Minister if he is aware that there is the prospect of a stoppage of work after Saturday next in the Lancashire weaving industry owing to the refusal of the employers to accede to a demand for an advance of wages by the operatives; will he say what steps the Government have taken to deal with the impending trouble; and, in view of the fact that the operatives in this industry have received only a 10 per cent. advance of wages to meet the 100 per cent. advance in the cost of living, and in view also of the contention of the employers that there is an injury inflicted upon the trade by the increase of the Indian Import Duties and the shortage of shipping, the Government have any proposal for coming to the assistance of the operatives?
The Prime Minister has asked me to answer this question. The Chief Industrial Commissioner at a preliminary conference on May 16th arranged with the Cotton Spinners' and Manufacturers' Association, the Federation of Master Cotton Spinners' Association, the Cotton Waste Spinners' and Manufacturers' Association, and the Northern Counties Textile Federation that notices should be held over and that further conference should take place in Lancashire to discuss the application for an advance in wages. As a result of this conference on May 21st, at which, by request of the parties, Sir George Askwith presided, the employers made "certain proposals which are to be recommended for acceptance at a meeting of the district representatives of the Northern Counties Textile Federation to be held at Blackburn next Saturday. Pending the result of that meeting it was agreed that all notices shall be postdated and suspended until June 16th."
Corn Production Bill
asked the Prime Minister the probable date of the Committee stage of the Corn Production Bill; and whether, having regard to the fact that farmers have not accepted the principle of the minimum wage or acted up to it, he will expedite that portion coming under discussion at an early date and being made retrospective?
As regards the first part of the question, I shall not be in a position to make any statement until after the Recess. As regards the second part, I would refer the hon. Member to Clause 4, Sub-section (4), of the Bill.
Estate Duty (Payment by Instalments)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the Government still allow Estate Duty to be paid by eight yearly instalments with interest at 3 per cent.; and, as the Government are borrowing at a much higher rate of interest than 3 per cent., whether something will be done to remove the incentive to delaying the payment of Estate Duty, and in the meantime investing the money in Government Loans and making considerable profits thereby?
The matter referred to by the hon. Member is governed by Statute, which allows Estate Duty to be paid by instalments in the case of unsold real property, and as at present advised I do not propose to suggest any change in the law.
Indian Army (Officers' Pay)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether, considering the increasing difficulties from which the sick and wounded officers of the Indian Army are suffering, he can expedite the reply to the proposals made by the India Office regarding better rates of pay to be granted to those officers wounded or on sick leave from field service?
I am in communication with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for India on this subject, which is not free from difficulty.
Hay Purchases
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether his Department has received a complaint, from the Navan Rural District Council complaining of the delay in baling and taking hay from the farmers of the district and the consequent loss to the producer by increased dryage as the season advances without for the future any increase in price to compensate for the inevitable loss in weight; whether he will consider, in consequence of the delay owing to earlier severer weather conditions, if the scale of prices for future balings might be increased; whether he will state the quantity of hay purchased in Great Britain and Ireland, respectively, of the 1916 crop and the quantity already baled in each country; and whether he is aware that in the Dublin market sound hay of any quality is fetching a price equal to that now paid by the Government, and that the fixing of a price for the first-class article last autumn, before it was possible to foresee the present shortage arising from an excessively severe winter, is unfair to those farmers whose hay is commandeered by the authorities?
The receipt of the communication referred to is not traced in the War Office. I do not think it desirable to give the figures for hay purchased and baled, but I may say that of the quantities bought 37 per cent. has been baled to date in Great Britain and 56 per cent. in Ireland. I am aware of the conditions to which my hon. Friend calls attention, but I am unable to agree that the action of the Department causes any unfairness.
Dublin and Blessington Steam Tramway Company
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the military authorities requested the Dublin and Blessington Steam Tramway Company to tender for the conveyance of stores between Terenure and Brittas, the latter being the nearest station to Kilbride Camp; whether such tender was accepted and the line now used for military purposes; whether the line is used for conveyance of foodstuffs and other stores for the Kilbride Camp: whether troops are using the line for conveyance of themselves and stores to and from the military camp at Glen of Imael, county Wicklow; whether he is aware that there is considerable traffic on the line in timber used for military purposes, and that, in addition to the use of the line for military purposes. there is a large volume of traffic in stone, sand, cattle, minerals, and goods generally; and whether, in view of these special circumstances, the Government will take over this railway or tramway line to relieve the shareholders from war losses owing to inceased wages, coal, and materials as compared with the year 1913, such lesses having to be met at present by the burden of 3s. 6d. in the £ local taxation and out of the rates of the affected area in county Wicklow?
I was not aware of all the circumstances mentioned in the first part of the question as to the nature and extent of the business now being conducted by the Dublin and Blessington Steam Tramway Company, but I hope that these circumstances may tend to mitigate the financial difficulties referred to. As regards the suggested acquisition of this tramway by the Government, I fear I cannot do more than refer the hon. Member to the answer given on the 25th April to the question on this subject asked by the hon. Member for North Dublin.
Matches (Import)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the importation of matches, except under licence, has been prohibited since June, 1916; whether any licences to import have been issued since June; and whether, in view of the hardship involved by the scarcity, he is now prepared to consider the question of granting licences for the importation of certain quantities of matches?
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the imminent shortage of matches; and whether, in view of the fact that British makers can only supply one-third of the needs of the country in matches, he will grant licences to import a sufficient quantity to prevent a shortage?
The import of matches has been prohibited, except under licence, since June, 1916. A few licences to import have been granted under exceptional circumstances. Having regard to present shipping conditions, I do not think that the issue of further licences could be justified in existing circumstances but the whole situation is being carefully watched. I may add that according to my information the capacity of British match makers to supply the needs of the country is greater than that suggested in the question.
British Trade Corporation
asked whether the charter and the deed of settlement of the British Trade Corporation were drawn or settled by the Law Officers of the Crown?
After the Petition and draft prints of the Charter and Deed of Settlement had been lodged with the Privy Council by the petitioners they were referred to the Solicitor-General for his consideration upon questions of law.
Did the Department which the hon. Gentleman represents inform the law officers that the matter was coming on for discussion last week in the House of Commons, and, if so, why were they not present?
I do not think that I can answer that question, but I believe that there was some communication.
If the Solicitor-General gave his approval of all the Clauses in the articles can we not have his opinion with regard to them?
It is not competent for me to say anything as to questions of law which were submitted for decision.
Was there any reply?
As I understand all that the hon. and learned Gentleman had to do was to determine questions of law, but he had not to deal with matters of policy.
Is there any reason to suppose that there was anything illegal in the document?
No.
Prison Officers
asked the Homè Secretary if he will make it quite clear that the recent increase in war bonus to civil servants awarded by the Conciliation and Arbitration Board for Government Employés announced on 10th May, 1917, also includes prison officers?
The new bonus will be applicable to prison officers as to other Civil servants.
asked whether any steps are taken and, if so, what steps to secure in other prisons than Borstal institutions the services as prison warders and wardresses of men and women qualified by their experience to make prison life remedial in its effect on prisoners?
The prison rules require officers to keep constantly in view the re- claiming of the prisoner. All officers are appointed on probation, and are sent to training schools for instruction and practical training in their duties, and unless the authorities are satisfied that an officer is likely to have a good influence over prisoners, he is not admitted to the service.
Are any steps taken to make sure that the necessary qualifications are possessed before the officers are appointed to the probationary stage?
Their qualifications are carefully considered, and if they appear to have the necessary qualifications they are put on probation, under the process which I have described.
Metropolitan Police
asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the fact that the Metropolitan Police are not, in the interests of discipline, allowed to make collective representations of their grievances, an application from a sergeant and a constable from every police station, through their superintendents, for a personal interview with the Commissioner would be entertained; and, should this make too much demand on his time, whether some other method could be devised whereby the men might demonstrate to the Commissioner that the necessities of the police in London are at least as great as in Sheffield, for example, where the war bonus and overtime paid to constables now amount to 18s. a week, notwithstanding that the scale of pay in the lower ranks is only from 1s. to 2s. lower than in the Metropolitan Police?
The Commissioner of Police informs me that he has always been ready to give consideration to any representations which members of the Metropolitan Police Force may wish to make as to the conditions of their service, and, if sufficient grounds are shown, to entertain an application for a personal interview. At the present moment, in view of the decision recently arrived at by the Government concerning the increased war bonus for the Civil service, the question of an increase in the police war bonus is engaging his consideration. I hope to be able to make a statement on this subject immediately after the Recess.
Parliamentary Procedure
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the feeling throughout the country for popular knowledge and understanding of Parliamentary procedure; whether the Government desires to encourage this indication of intelligent interest in Parliamentary proceedings; and, in that case, if he will desire the President of the Board of Education to include in the new curriculum of Board schools and night schools, lectures, classes, and examinations on the principles of our constitution and administration?
The answer is in the negative.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give a list of all the constitutional principles if I promise to give another list to show that he has violated every one of them?
I shall be interested to see the hon. Gentleman's list.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it would encourage knowledge and interest on the part of the public in political matters?
The hon. Member's information may be different from mine, but the last thing I see any evidence of is that the public take an interest in the details of our procedure.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at the schools and institutes organised by the county council such lectures are available and the hon. Member can attend them and learn the procedure of the House.
Scientific and Industrial Research (Ireland)
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland), if he will state what amount of financial provision the department has asked from the State as Ireland's equivalent for scientific and industrial research, corresponding to the sum exceeding a million pounds provided for that purpose in this country; what amount of provision has been or is to be obtained; whether he has received representations from Irish technical instruction committees on this subject; and, in the event of adequate financial provision being refused, what action he and the heads of the department propose to take?
The hon. Member is under a misapprehension. The Committee of the Privy Council for Scientific and Industrial Research has been appointed for the United Kingdom. Ireland is represented on the Committee and on its Advisory Council, and has the same right as Great Britain to a share in the funds placed by Parliament at the disposal of the Committee. No representations in the matter have been received by the Department of Agriculture from Technical Instruction Committees in Ireland.
If a demand for inquiry is granted into this matter of technical education, will the right hon. Gentleman see that money in any grant is ear-marked for technical education in Ireland?
I do not think this raises the question of technical education, but merely the question of the promotion of research.
Private Business
Haslemere and District Gas Bill [Lords],
Hemel Hempsted Gas Bill [Lords],
Reported, with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table.
Lancashire Power Construction Company Bill [Lords],
Reported, with an Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table.
Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Tramways Bill [Lords],
Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Lea Bridge District Gas Bill [Lords],
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table.
Public Accounts Committee
Ordered, "That Sir Edward Goulding be discharged from the Committee of Public Accounts."
Ordered, "That Colonel Jessel be added to the Committee."— [Lord E. Talbot.]
Orders of the Day
Business of the House
Ordered, "That the Proceedings under the Consideration of the Lords Amendments to the Billeting of Civilians Bill be not interrupted this night under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), and may be entered upon at any hour, although opposed."— [Mr. Boner Law.]
Representation of the People Bill
Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment to Question [22nd May], "That the Bill be now read a second time."
Which Amendment was, to leave out from the word "That," to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof the words "in view of the preoccupation of the Ministry, of Parliament, and of the people by the efforts and anxieties of the War, it is undesirable at the present time to proceed further with the consideration of legislation which enacts far-reaching changes in the franchise without providing that a reasonable proportion of the soldiers and sailors will be able to vote at the next election."— [Colonel Sanders.]
Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question." Debate resumed.
Those who support the principle of proportional representation have, of course, to put up with a good deal of chaff and a number of small jokes, which are based, not so much upon novelty, as upon what George Eliot called "a mild persistence." We take that very good-humouredly in putting forward a reform which John Stuart Mill said was a discovery as important in the great realm of politics, as the discovery of steam in relation to mechanics. Last night, just before the adjournment of the House, I spent a few minutes in answering some of the objections raised in the Debate on the proportional representation Clauses of this Bill. Particularly I dealt with some of the objections brought forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester. That hon. Gentleman well said that the principle of proportional representation is that the majority should rule, but that the minority should be represented. In that respect it is different from many other systems of what is called minority representation, and which give to the minorities an excessive share of representation, and sometimes give representation that is at the mercy of chance, to a very large extent. Though my hon. Friend laid down that principle, and although he did not directly or specifically attack it, yet he did indirectly attack it; for he proceeded to say that he desired, in a town which is entitled to three members, that where there was a minority of less than a quarter, they should nevertheless receive one-third of the representation. It is manifestly unjust that a minority of less than a quarter of a given community should have one-third of the representation, and I am glad to say that it would be impossible under the scheme of voting included in this Bill. My hon. Friend, in fact, laid down the general principle that a minority should not be represented in proportion really to its numerical strength, but that what he called the virile minority should be entitled to a larger share of representation. If he can get people to vote for it he is entitled to that, but, to my mind, under no other conditions.
As to the question of virile minorities, I should very often call them pushful and wrecking minorities, and I consider that the efforts of such minorities to get representation in order to exert their power is one of the very worst things in our politics. I would instance that in Canada, at the present time—so I am told by a gentleman well acquainted with matters there—there are forty constituencies in which there are German minorities, well organised and using their power as electors, and they have gained very extensive powers over the representation of those forty constituencies. Under any proper system of election such an abuse of the power of minorities would be simply impossible. Yet, as a matter of fact, similar cases do occur everywhere under the single-member constituency system. It is a great evil, I think, that such minorities under the present system, if they are prepared to do any amount of wrecking, are able to get, and very often do get, their own way in a most illegitimate manner. Under proportional representation there would be a very much greater opportunity for the candidate to appeal to a wider constituency, and therefore to a consistent body of opinion agreeing with him, supporting him, and making him independent of small, virile, pushful and wrecking minorities.
The Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord Hugh Cecil), if I turn for a moment to his brilliant speech. and brilliant advocacy of the proportional representation Clauses, used one argument which I fear may lead to a misunderstanding, and may create a false impression, although it is perfectly true in itself. He instanced the strength that would be given by a better system of representation to the moderate sections, such as the Moderate Liberals and Moderate Conservatives in this House, and how they would be made more or less independent on the caucus and Party machine. That is perfectly true, but they would get that independence, not because they are Moderates, but because they are a definite body of opinion with a definite backing behind them in the country. In Belgium it has been the Liberal Party which has chiefly benefited by proportional representation. In Germany, on the other hand, it is the Social Democrats who have chiefly pressed for the introduction of proportional representaton. In France, the reform was on the point of being introduced just before the beginning of this War by a combination of Socialists and Conservatives, because they were the two Parties that were suffering under the single-Member constituency system.
4.0 P.M.
It would, I think, be a misfortune if it were thought that proportional representation was merely a Conservative measure, or merely a Liberal measure, or merely a Socialist measure, or that it was intended to favour any one body of opinion. As a matter of fact, it will give complete representation to all bodies of opinion, and therefore it will give us stability in our Government, in no narrow sense, but because it will limit the swing of the pendulum. The changes registered in the representation of the country will correspond really to the changes in opinion that actually take place in the country, and, therefore, it is a measure which would be equally useful to us in opposing reaction, or in opposing any body of people who strive to snatch victory for any extreme proposal, simply because they have got a momentary unreal majority by the swing of the pendulum—not that it would exclude extreme bodies from representation, for it is extremely desirable that they should get their representation. It is much better that those who hold unpopular opinions, or what are called extreme opinions, which sometimes turn out to be perfectly true and well founded and sometimes otherwise, should be able to get representation if they are a considerable body in any constituency in the country. They should have the opportunity of representing their views here on the floor of the House, rather than that they should nourish a well-founded feeling that they are suffering gross injustice because everywhere throughout the country they are permanently excluded from representation. The hon. Member for Leicester denied that there were such bodies excluded from representation. He said that there was no shade of opinion which did not find representation in this House. I think that is very much of an exaggeration, and it would certainly be incorrect to say that every shade of opinion is represented here in anything like its true proportion in the country. Where small parties under our present system do get representation, it is very often not as a matter of right but by very undesirable processes of threatening and bargaining with the larger parties.
My hon. Friend the Member for Shields (Mr. Cochrane) said that he was much alarmed at the delay which would take place in the counting and in ascertaining the result of the election under proportional representation. I think he said that there would be the greatest possible delay. As a matter of fact, it is perfectly certain that the whole counting could be done the next day. Many elections have taken place under the system, and it is perfectly well known how long it takes. He also spoke of the awful position that would be created if a recount were necessary. There would really be no trouble. It is very unlikely there would be a recount because every process in the counting, which is not very elaborate, is checked as you go along. But if you had a count it would be a very simple process. All these things have been tested.
I come to the question of by-elections, which I cannot very well omit. I know many hon. Members think a great deal about it, and an hon. Friend of mine who proposes to speak later will, I believe, deal with it, and I would very much rather leave it to him, especially remembering what an hon. and learned Gentleman said yesterday about other fellows doing it better. I will only touch upon one or two points on this matter. To hear some people talk you would think that the whole electoral problem before us was one of by-elections and that there was nothing else in it but the great question of by-elections. I submit that the problem of by-elections is really a very small part of the whole matter. To hear the same people criticise you would think that under the present system the by-election was a perfect philosophy of politics. I cannot say that I have found it so. I think there is a good deal of huggermugger, turmoil, and chance, and a good deal that is unfortunate about by-elections under the present system. But for my part I have no reason to speak ill of by-elections, seeing that I sit in the House as a result of one of them.
The proposals in the Bill are very simple. They are that at a by-election you should poll the whole of the constituency. If a man sits for a three- or four- or five-member constituency and falls out from any reason, you would poll the whole constituenecy, just as you do now in a two-member constituency when one of the members falls out. It was what was done in the old three-corner constituencies. There are, I believe, better ways of holding a by-election, but I think it would be very unwise to go into that now. The great question before the country is whether this principle of proportional representation is to be accepted, and to add any complications as to new ways of holding by-elections would, I think, be highly undesirable at the present time, in view of the fact that the existing way of holding a by-election is a perfectly work able way for a three-or four-or five-member constituency. As against that it is said that it would be a herculean task in the matter of work and fight. It would be no more difficult to fight than at a General Election or than it would be to fight a large industrial county constituency at the present time. Remember that in the Bill these multi-member constituencies are all urban in character, and as far as work goes I would rather fight half Manchester than the North-West Division of Durham, which I at present represent, and where in winter time one has to cover very large areas under must difficult circumstances. Then it is said that the expense would be very great. The question of expense is entirely a question of law. In Australia, for instance, a candidate for the Senate has to fight the whole of one of the States, such as New South Wales or Victoria. He is by law forbidden to spend more than £250. They are all thereby put on an equality. The voters, of course, inform themselves of what is going on, and if a man is too stupid or too indolent to inform himself, perhaps he does not vote, and I do not think that the country is very much the worse for his abstaining. Expense is entirely the limit you choose to make it under the law. At present, under proportional representation, it is proposed to put a limit of 4d. per voter, and even in the biggest of these multimember constituencies that would work out at less than the present cost of fighting a large county constituenecy, and very much less than the present cost of fighting some of the biggest of our county constituencies. I, for my part, would have no objection if it were proposed to further limit the expenses in those constituencies. I am quite sure that the political issues could be adequately brought before all the intelligent electors for a very much less amount.
It is also said that at these by-elections it might happen that the minority would lose the seat which it had got at the General Election. Possibly it might, but in that case it would only lose what in all probability it would not have had under the present system at all. The evil is, therefore, measured by the time which may elapse between the by-election and the next General Election. I have tried to calculate how often it would happen, and I think it would be very seldom. In the first place, the proportional representation seats are, under this Bill, only about a fourth of the seats in the country. In the next place, the vacancy would be more likely to occur in the ranks of the majority party because of the larger numbers in that party. Then with regard to the small parties, they would be in a kind of alliance to prevent their seats being grabbed by the biggest party. Therefore, I do not believe that it would be at all so easy for the biggest party to grab the seat, nor do I think that the biggest party would by any means always want to do so. I think that the possibility of losing the seat is, after all, a very small item in the matter. Indeed, on the whole question I do beg the House to observe proportion in what is said about this question of by-elections. It is a very small part of the whole electoral problem, and if this system which is now proposed is a real improvement in other respects, then I say, so far as by-elections are concerned, we shall at least be no worse off than under the present system. There are two great objects of a by-election—one is to fill the vacancy, and that we should do under the proposals of the Bill. It might happen that three or four times in a Parliament the seat would be lost. But worse than that happens under the present system in our by-elections. The seat is lost by some pure accident or by some three-corner fight, quite as often under the present system. The other object of a by-election is to test public opinion. In a multi-member constituency of three, four or five members you get a far better test of public opinion than you do at present in a single-member constituency. As a test of public opinion a by-election under the new system would be an improvement upon the old, and in every other way I submit that it would be at least as good.
May I for a few moments consider the present election system. Essentially it is a struggle to prevent other people getting representation. There is no other way by which any one party in a single member constituency can get representation except by preventing all other parties and all other shades of opinion from getting representation in that constituency. The result is a great injustice and a great feeling of bitterness, especially where you have seats which remain true to one party year after year and generation after generation so that people are born and die without their votes ever having the least effect upon the Government of this country. What we surely want to do is to represent all our citizens and so carry out the principle of one vote one value. The present system gives the elector no freedom of choice. The caucus chooses the candidate and he is given the option of either supporting that candidate or else giving over the seat to the other party. Proportional repre- sentation will give the elector free choice. There would be several candidates of his own party at each general election before him. If he does not like any one of those he can put up a candidate of his own party and vote for that candidate and simply mark the other candidates of his party, two, three, and four. He can do that without the slightest chance of throwing over the seat to the other party simply because he dislikes one candidate. This freedom of the elector is not purchased at the expense of the freedom of the member. On the contrary, under the present system, a member of Parliament's seat is constantly at the mercy of some small group or other in constituencies where the parties are something like equally divided. Our great leaders constantly lose their seats. Surely nobody can wish to see a Gladstone put to the annoyance of losing a seat and having to hunt the country for another or to see the same fate befall a great leader like the present Foreign Secretary. But it does happen to our leaders and always has happened. In Belgium and in Tasmania the same thing used to happen in single member constituencies. Some prominent leaders whom I could name were out of the House half the time. Under proportional representation they are always in the House where the country wishes them to be and where even their opponents must admit that it is in the interests of the country they should be.
This change would relieve the Member of some of the worst temptations of political life because it would make him strong and straightforward in the knowledge that he had the support of a consistent body of opinion behind him and that he need not be in fear of any small group of people, or of any wrecking minority. When I went into the Conference over which you, Sir, presided, I realised that there were before the country several matters of the greatest importance which had very nearly brought us to the verge of civil war before this war broke out, and at any rate relieved us from that terrible danger of civil war. I realised also that these great questions must either be settled on a national basis now or very soon, or that after the War is over they will again plunge us into violent and most disastrous controversy. The first of these was the Franchise question, and all the questions attendant on it which were referred to the Conference. I believe we all felt, and I certainly felt, that if that question could be settled on a national basis it would be a good omen that there might be a chance that other great burning questions might be settled in a similar way afterwards. I believe we all feel that the only possible basis of settlement was the basis of justice to all parties, not to attempt to get an advantage for any one party or any one opinion, but to aim at absolute justice for men and women, civilians, soldiers and sailors—all classes and all opinions. I, for my own part, was convinced that under the present system of election you never can attain such a system of justice to all parties. I saw proportional representation, on the other hand, a system well established in many of the leading countries of the world, growing everywhere, adding new spheres to its operations, almost month by month, and certainly every few months. I found it giving justice and satisfaction to all parties in those countries where it had been tried. I found it making the Government strong, because it was known to be really representing the people. I believed and I believe still that it is an essential part of any real settlement of the question before us. I believe it is a reform which will gradually change our politics from a barbarous struggle to get power at the expense of other people into healthy co-operation and healthy rivalry between men and women of various opinions in the great work of government which, I venture to say, needs the help of all opinions, of all interests, and of all classes.
I rise with some reluctance to address the House upon this Bill. I should need to have summoned courage to do so if I had not already on several occasions witnessed the most generous indulgence which the House always extends to new Members. I should have preferred to address the House for the first time on some subject upon which I had special experience or knowledge. Then I should possibly have had the opportunity of affording it some information or laying before it some view which it would desire to have. But, having considered my duty upon this occasion, I felt that possibly it might be some advantage to the House to have laid before it the impressions of one who has, at any rate, approached these great questions with a fresh mind. Before I entered this House I had taken no part whatsoever in politics. I had not ever made calculations upon the effect of changes in the franchise, registration, and all the minute details of party machinery. I am still ignorant of what will be the effect of many of these changes, and I attach very small importance to these technical matters. If I venture to address the House it is because I wish to point out—I feel it my duty so to do—how these larger questions of national policy appear to one who has endeavoured to approach them with a quite impartial and unprejudiced mind. To show my extreme ignorance—I am ashamed to say it—when I met for the first time the responsible body of gentlemen who invited me to become the candidate for North Warwickshire, one of the first questions that was put to me was, "What do you think of the Resolutions of the Speaker's Conference?" I am ashamed to say that I had to reply that not having read them I was not in a position to pronounce any opinion upon them. I need hardly say, Sir, that I have since then endeavoured to supplement my knowledge in regard to the valuable work of the Conference over which you presided.
I had not been long in this House when—the House will remember—a very important discussion took place—it was on 28th March—in connection with the work of the Conference. A Resolution was passed in regard to it acknowledging in the most proper fashion, I venture to think, the great services which you, Sir, have rendered to this House and the country in connection with that Conference, and encouraging the Government to proceed with the preparation of a Bill to give effect to the Resolutions of the Conference. On that occasion I had one of my first experiences in this House which showed me that things are not always what they seem. I, in common with a number of Members of the Unionist party, was certainly led to believe that our voting upon this Resolution would be an entirely free one, and that every Member of this House, as far as the Government was concerned, was free either to speak or to vote upon it as his convictions and desires dictated. That impression was deepened by the fact that the Whips sent out on that day. were very innocent-looking documents, and contained no intimation that business of urgent and pressing national importance was to be before the House. Certainly there was no crack of the Government whip. But the resources of the Government, it was soon proved, were not exhausted. As far as I can gather, what occurred was that the Government horn was sounded. The blast of that horn was, indeed, a terrifying one. It caused certain prominent members of the Government, who were believed to be in sympathy with the views of my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mr. C. Salter), to fly from the House with their hands before their ears, deaf to the voice of conviction; and they did not return to the precincts of this House for twenty-four hours. Of those who remained behind, all, as far as I could discover, were dumb as well as deaf. Only one member of the Government managed to stagger into the Division Lobby in support of my hon. Friend's Amendment.
I refer to these circumstances because in the course of the Debate yesterday the hon. Member for Norwood founded his argument to some extent upon the over-whelming majority which was in favour of the Government on that occasion. In the circumstances to which I referred 1 think that if the Government horn had not been sounded in the manner I have described, the appearance of that majority would have been very different. Much, therefore, cannot be made of that particular argument. The next step that occurred in the sequence of events was the announcement, certainly to my personal surprise, of the fact that even before this Bill had been introduced into the House, commissioners had been appointed, folk of whom we knew not, or what their duties were to be, or what their instructions were, or anything whatever about them. The next step was the introduction of this Bill. I should like to draw attention to the fact—and it is, I am sorry to say, representative of the attitude of the Government on many occasions lately—that it was thought proper to submit this Bill to the House without at the same time affording it such information as in my judgment at least, it was absolutely necessary to have before any Member could pronounce a definite opinion upon it. I was in my own constituency lately, and was asked a number of questions in regard to the Bill, and on the eve of the introduction of this Bill I was unable to say what were the estimated effects of the Bill. The fact is that so late as last Monday—because I attach so much importance to this fact—I put down a question to the President of the Local Government Board which would have been answered to-day had it not been postponed by request. That question concerned the number of voters now on the register, the number of male or female voters which it is contemplated would be made to it, and in the case of the female voters what would be the effect upon the Bill alternatively of the ages of thirty or thirty-five. I think the House will agree that these were under the circumstances straight and relevant questions. The answer to a portion of these questions was supplied yesterday in the opening speech of the Home Secretary. Further information as to the effect of the age in respect of the female voters was given in the speech, I think, of the hon. Member for Hammersmith; so that these figures, which I have every reason to suppose are authentic, are the figures for which I asked, and which are now before the House.
I think it would have been more in accordance with the wishes of hon. Members, certainly it would have facilitated the study and discussion of the Bill, if the House had, in advance, been supplied spontaneously by the Government with those figures. The other document, the Instructions to the Commissioners, was issued at a very late hour last week. That also is a matter in which the House should certainly have received earlier information as to the intentions of the Government, seeing that that document, innocent though it appears, deals with what, in my judgment, is one of the most important questions of policy which have to be considered by the House in connection with this Bill. The absence of information such as I have referred to does make it very difficult for Members like myself, who desire to be supporters of the Government, to give it their unqualified and unvarying support. When we received the Bill I think the first thing which must have struck every Member was the omission of these instructions to the Boundary Commissioners. Without them the Bill is quite incomplète. For that reason alone, I feel strongly impelled to support the Amendment moved by the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Bridgwater. I should like to point out further that the Government, in dealing with the resolution passed by the House on March 28th, has not followed the course the House expected it would follow in incorporating the whole of the Speaker's resolutions in the Bill, laying upon the Table of the House a Bill which embodied them all, and saying: "We want you to pass the Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill." That course has not been followed. I for one regret it very much indeed.
I should like to lay before the House the main reasons which have led me to take the position of supporting this Amendment. The first I have already indicated. It is the omission from this Bill of the instructions to the Commissioners. The reason I lay emphasis upon this point is that it may be right or it may be wrong to give the vote a different value in different constituencies, but it has been the policy of this country in the past, and it has been the policy of many other countries, to asign some special place in the constitutional position to the agricultural interests of the country. In a country like this the argument in favour of so doing is certainly strengthened by the fact that in the natural penetration of the agricultural districts by the great industrial and mining centres, the agricultural interest has to a large extent had its position weakened. This Bill would carry the process much further. As I have said before, I am not committing myself to a final opinion on this at the moment; I am not called upon to do so. The position I want to make clear to the House is that so important a change in our national policy ought not to be effected by means of Departmental or Government instructions to a Commission. If it were desired to give effect to it in an ordinary costitutional way, it should have been brought up plainly in a Bill, and the House should have had the oportunity of considering it Clause by Clause in Committee, and of amending it if so desired. On that ground alone I feel it right to oppose the Second Reading of this Bill, as the House has been deprived of that opportunity.
Anticipating, perhaps, what I may have to say later on other points, I should like to emphasise this view. I heard it argued yesterday that the giving of votes and so on has got to be looked upon as an act of justice. I dissent from that view entirely. I take the view that the object of this House in passing a Reform Bill—and this is the greatest Reform Bill, judged by the numbers who are affected by it, in our history—should be to constitute a stable, and I was going to use the word "desirable," but I will substitute "thoughtful" electorate, who are competent to consider and take an interest as citizens in the great public questions of the day, and who will give you a Legislature which will be worthy of the country and the people. It is not a question of doing justice to individuals. It is a question of deciding the lines upon which the electorate shall be constituted, from which again your Legislature shall be constituted, and it is from that point of view that this question as to whether the representation of rural districts should be on a more generous scale than urban districts, will have to be considered. It is because of the special position of agriculture that that policy in the past has been decided upon, and if it is to be now reconsidered I maintain it should be done in a formal and constitutional manner.
The next point which has caused me to take this decision is the position of the soldiers and sailors as constituted by this Bill. I freely admit that the objection taken by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Colonel Sanders) was very fully dealt with yesterday by the Solicitor-General, and certainly with my very limited legal attainments I should hesitate very much about casting any doubt upon opinion of such an authoritative character coming from such a source. We are assured by the Solicitor-General that so far as registration and qualification are concerned, this Bill, as drafted, carries out the intention of Mr. Speaker's Conference, and I will say of this House, for the feeling in favour of that particular class could not have been manifested more strongly than it was. Having that assurance, I think it is quite unnecessary to pursue that aspect of the question further. But there is a second point upon which, I think, the Seconder of the Amendment laid some stress, and to which an answer should certainly be given, which still does, I think, merit further attention at the hands of the House. It is not a question of how the soldier shall qualify or shall be registered as a voter, but how he, being registered, is to exercise his vote. Again, I frankly admit that the method which is set out in the Bill is in accordance with the Resolution of the Conference. I satisfied myself on that point, and therefore I admit that if the Government had decided, in deference to the views which were expressed previously in this House, to make some modification of it, they would have been going outside the strict text of the Resolution. Had they done so, I am confident the House would have welcomed it, had it been in the direction of giving greater facilities than are contemplated by this Bill to the Forces of the Crown, and I trust that, if the Bill goes into Committee, the Government will be prepared to bring forward themselves an Amendment, giving to absent soldiers and sailors a right to vote by proxy in a manner which will ensure them their Parliamentary privileges.
I now come to the question of woman suffrage, and on this point—probably the most contentious in the whole Bill—the Government again leaves it to the House. I do not know whether it will be left to the House in the fashion that the Resolution to which I have previously referred was left to the House, but, in any event, I hold most strongly that at the present time this House is not justified in proceeding with this highly contentious question. It involves the consideration of the matter to which I have already referred, namely, the future stability and character of our Legislature. It is an experiment, and at this time I object to the introduction of this question. I also think that if it is to be proceeded with, it should be upon a more limited scale than is proposed in this Bill. I understand from the figures supplied to the House yesterday by the Home Secretary, that under the Bill the male electorate would be increased from 8,000,000 to 10,000,000 and that if the women's age be fixed at 30 there would be an addition of 6,000,000 female voters to the electorate. That, I should say, goes a great deal further than a limited experiment. It is a very great plunge, and I for one think that the plunge is far too great. If we are to take it, and I would be prepared to support a limited extension of the franchise to women, I should not be disposed myself to vote for an extension which would add a larger number than would come under the alternative age of 35, which has been estimated at 4,500,000. In saying this, I do not wish to commit myself in the least to advocacy of the method for giving the franchise to women, which is embodied in these Resolutions. There may be better ones than the age limit, but, at any rate, I wish to make clear my view that an extension, on the first occasion that Woman Franchise is introduced to the House, which would involve the addition of 6,000,000 female voters, is far too sweeping a change to be carried at one fell swoop.
The last question which I have tried to consider to the best of my ability is the vexed question of proportional representation. I think the best proof of what an inopportune moment it is to discuss any question of this character was the speech of the hon. Member who preceded me. I feel that, in order to do justice to the facts, arguments and figures contained in that speech, it would be necessary to go home and burn the midnight oil and I greatly doubt if one could do it within a week, because it would involve consultation with other authorities, and a reference to the literature with which I, and I have no doubt other Members of this House, have been so bountifully supplied by individuals and associations for or against this change. I for one entirely sympathise with the view expressed by the Prime Minister on the 27th March. The Prime Minister frankly confessed that he did not understand proportional representation, and, what was more, he did not mean to study it during the War. I for one feel precisely the same. I do not understand proportional representation, and I do not mean to study it during the War. My time is far too much occupied in other, I believe, more practical and useful directions.
What is the position that we occupy as representatives in this House? That was very ably and fully dealt with by the hon. Member for Westminster (Mr. Burdett-Coutts) yesterday, and I fully agree with the statement of the position that he set out so clearly. This House cannot possibly be bound by the Resolutions of the Conference, over which you, Sir, presided, on the ground that that Conference was representative of all parties in this House. In the short time I have had the honour to be a Member of this House I have had no experiences of other Conferences, but echoes of the results of such conferences at times penetrate to the outside world, and, so far as I can discover, and so far as the Unionist Party is concerned, it seemed to me that the history of this Conference pursued the normal course which has been pursued in the history of other conferences in the past with which the Unionist Party have been associated. In this case certain members of the Conference appear to have escaped—I do not know how they managed it—from the doom which befel the other Members who stayed behind. It is a platitude among Members of the Party to which I belong that when the lion of the Radical Party lies down with the lamb of the Unionist Party, somehow or other the state of the lamb, when it emerges from a conference, is completely changed. Behind the closed doors of these conferences no one can tell what goes on. We can only judge by the results. But when we see—I will not say our representatives—but fellow-members of the Unionist Party, emerge either half assimilated, or in a dazed condition, we sympathise with them, and regret that they were ever placed in such a dangerous position, and temporarily we find that we have to write them off from amongst our active associates. Although this is not the time when any Party considerations should be put forward, I would present to the House the view that, at any rate, the Party with which I am associated has always stood for caution in constitutional matters. We do not think that this House should be rushed, and still more that the Nation should be rushed into dangerous experiments, and certainly not at a time when neither this House nor the Nation have had the opportunity, or even possessed the desire, to give full study and consideration to the most difficult problems which are involved in a Bill of this magnitude. Nothing, I think, is more condemnatory of this Bill than the attitude which the House has exhibited towards it. No one in the warmth of yesterday afternoon and to-day, viewing the lethargic attitude adopted towards many of the speeches to which I have listened with attention, could possibly have believed that the greatest reform Bill in our history was being debated in this House. Some may regard that as an unfortunate attitude, but I regard it as the inevitable consequence of this great War. People's minds are not attuned, and ought not to be attuned, to a full consideration and study of these domestic questions.
I referred just now to the fact that the nation has not been consulted. It is quite evident from what I have already pointed out to the House that even if it had desired to be consulted there have been no opportunities. The facts in regard to this Bill, as in regard to some other matters recently, have only been disclosed at what somebody, I think, described yesterday as half-past the eleventh hour. But even if the whole facts had been before us during the last two or three months, in face of the restrictions, and the very proper restrictions, placed at the present time on travelling, and in view of the discouragement which I think every Member of this House opposes to every effort, if any are made, by his constituents to summon political meetings, there has been no opportunity whatsoever for the Members of this House to discuss in full detail the many provisions of this Bill with their constituents. That, I think, is a wholly wrong position, and on that reason alone I have decided I should be justified in opposing the Second Reading of this Bill. While I say that, I should like at the same time to acknowledge that the study which I have given to this subject certainly leads me to the belief that there are admirable provisions in the Bill before us, and I believe there are many of those provisions which would be adopted unanimously by all sections of this House. We have been told that it is impossible to bring forward a Bill which will give the Forces of the Crown the votes which we all desire they should have without raising these very contentious questions. I can hardly believe that is the case, and I believe it still less now that the Government have informed us of the attitude which they take up. If it is impossible to proceed with a Bill that deals with the male franchise alone. how then is it that the Government are prepared to do it should the House, to whom the question of women's suffrage and proportional representation are to he left decide against the Government on those questions? If the House so decides, I understand the Government is still prepared to proceed with the rest of the Bill. If that course is possible, why is it impossible to proceed at once with a limited Bill which deals merely with the questions that the House would readily adopt? Surely no political party in this House would dare to vote against a Bill which will provide, if it is necessary to provide it, for the bringing up to date of the present register and also for the full enfranchisement of the Forces of the Crown and will do nothing else. I doubt if any party here would dare to go into the Division Lobby against such a Bill; but these questions of redistribution, women's franchise, and proportional representation are questions of an entirely different character, and I suggest that they should be dropped and the Bill proceeded with without them.
The House has been fortunate in the fact that this Debate has elicited no fewer than three maiden speeches from hon. Members who have lately joined our ranks, and I am convinced that every Member will have listened with the greatest pleasure to the speech just made by the hon. Member for North Warwick (Mr. Wilson-Fox). Although many of us necessarily must disagree with his conclusions, I think we shall all be unanimous in the appreciation of the clearness and the force with which he has presented his argument to the House. The hon. Member has pointed out, and I think with much truth, that the aspect of the House on the occasion of the Second Reading of a Bill of such magnitude, both to-day and yesterday, has been very remarkable. Here you have a Reform Bill which doubles the electorate, which adds twice as many voters to the franchise as all three of the previous great Reform Bills put together, because between them, in 1832, in 1867, and in 1884, they only added 4,000,000 to the electorate. Here you have a Bill which deals with the great problem of women suffrage, which redistributes our seats, which takes in its stride almost all the outstanding questions relating to the method of election, and which, so far as the House of Commons is concerned, is received almost without a ripple of excitement, and attracts outside these doors hardly a passing reference in the Press. When I compare the aspect of the House at this moment with what it probably was, and, indeed, what we know from records it was, on the occasions of the previous Reform Bills, seething with interest, and indeed with passion, a whirlpool of party contention, it brings home to me, more than anything has yet done, the extraordinary difference the War has made in the whole of our political values. I do not think that is anything to regret. I think it is only now that we are able to view things in their true perspective. Previously we who are Members of Parliament have been so immersed in the questions of election and registration that we have given to these matters probably a highly exaggerated importance, and it is only now when great world issues are filling our minds that we see that these comparatively small matters of the mechanics of politics ought not to bulk so large in the attention of the nation as they have done hitherto.
Indeed, the main portions of this Bill appear to many of us to be so obviously desirable that we can hardly realise why it should be that they should raise any opposition at all. Our General Elections covering a period of three weeks have long been a by-word of absurdity. Our distribution of seats, not revised for a third of a century, and leaving one constituency ten, fifteen, or even twenty times as large as another constituency, is nothing short of a scandal. Our registration law, confused, irrational, excluding from the franchise no fewer than one-third of the adult males of the country, is a disgrace to any Statute Book. There are, of course, things in this Bill that each of us in this House dislike. There are things in this Bill, as a compromise measure, which are to me and to many who hold the same political views as myself intensely distasteful. I cannot see, for example, any reason, either of expediency or of policy, why a man who occupies business premises in one constituency and a residence in another should have two votes, while a man who occupies business premises and a residence in two different parts of the same constituency has only one vote; and why a working man who, as is very frequently the case, lives in one place and works in another, and therefore on the theory of this Bill has interests in both, should only have one vote and not two like the business man who may be travelling in and out with him in the same train every day. The retention of university representation is to my mind most regrettable. When I first entered this House one of its must distinguished members was Mr. Lecky, then himself representing Trinity College, Dublin, and I remember that in his History of England he states, in the course of a general review of democratic institutions in this country, quite frankly and without qualification, that the political influences of the universities has been almost uniformly hostile to political progress; and I am sure that the very brilliant speech delivered yesterday by the Noble Lord who now represents Oxford University (Lord H. Cecil) does not give proof to contradict that assertion.
But this is a compromise Bill, and however much some of us may dislike some of these provisions, and perhaps some other provisions, we accept them frankly without dispute or controversy, because we know that others who hold opposite views have also given up points to which they attach importance, and that it is only by a general surrender here and there of things which each of us regards as not necessarily essential that it is possible to secure that general agreement by which alone a measure of this character can be carried. The Noble Lord said yesterday, and the hon. Member who has just spoken repeated the contention to-day, "Why, after all, proceed with this measure at this time?" The Noble Lord drew a picture of the War Cabinet sitting as he would have it sit for the purpose of domestic legislation, in a chamber decorated, among other texts, with the famous remark of Lord Melbourne: "Why cannot you leave it alone"; and under the inspiration of that motto they were to conduct the domestic concerns of this country. After all, does the Noble Lord really think that if he were dictator of this country at this moment even he could leave it alone? Does he contemplate that the next General Election, which is to elect the Parliament of reconstruction, is to take place on the register which now exists, two and a half years old, if you take it including persons who have been in their present residences for a period of four years, and full of the most absurd anomalies? Obviously you must have a new register. Does the Noble Lord imagine that you can have a new register and deny the soldier and sailor fighting in this War the right to take his share in the election of the Parliament which is to decide what is to come after the War? I feel convinced that he would accept both those propositions, as the hon. Member who has just spoken has done, as being inevitable, namely, that you must have a new register, and that you must enfranchise the soldier and the sailor. But if he came to an attempt to carry that out and no more the Noble Lord would find that you wou11 not be allowed to carry such a measure without also dealing with the question of women's suffrage. Whatever your wishes might be, and however much you might desire to go so far and no further, in view of the strong feelings in this House and in the country when questions of the franchise were considered, women suffrage could not be left aside.
Is a vote of the House of Commons not a sufficient test of the feeling on this subject?
5.0 P.M.
The vote of the House of Commons has endorsed the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference. The hon. Member for Bridgwater (Colonel Sanders), who moved the rejection of the Bill yesterday, said that if only the Government would drop it they would be saved very much embarrassment. They might be saved from one embarrassment, but they would find themselves immediately faced with an alternative embarrassment, which would be not the less uncomfortable and not the less disconcerting to their policy; and as I have had to live with this problem as a member of the late Government for a period of at least a year, when we tried a solution in every direction that the ingenuity of man could conceive, I can assure the hon. Member that if he were to induce this Government to drop this Bill he would certainly not lead them into easy and rosy paths. And, again, if you did succeed in leaving this matter alone until after the War, how unenviable would be your position then, with the country at that time eager to make a new start in the new spirit which this War has evoked, the mind of the people intent on questions of industrial conditions, of land, of housing, of education, the development of agriculture, and the development of national trade, to say nothing of the vast problems of finance and Imperial unity which must necessarily face us as soon as the War is over? While it looks to this Parliament to tackle tenaciously and in an earnest spirit these great and formidable problems, we should be sitting here month after month discussing in a controversial spirit details of registration and methods of election. The Noble Lord would be in the position of a plumber who is called to a house to do some important and urgent work, but always finds it necessary first to go home in order to get the right tools to do it with; and the nation would be impatient with Parliament, and those who now block the road to electoral reform would find their position at that time a very unenviable one.
The Noble Lord and the hon. Member who has just spoken have said that we have now no authority from the people at this moment to deal with these problems; but can he discover any expression of public opinion of any moment in any portion of the nation which is adverse to these matters being taken up and settled by Parliament now? Do you find from any quarter in the nation a feeling that this is a usurpation on the part of Parliament which ought to be resented by the electorate? On the contrary, do you not find on all hands an expression of opinion that at last Parliament is setting to work on these difficult problems in order to get them out of the way before the period of reconstruction comes, and that this attitude is accepted with gratitude? He shakes his head. Let me put him this question: Suppose he were to have his way, suppose he were to-night to carry his Motion, and the Government were to drop this Bill, would you find throughout the country an expression of a feeling of relief that this action had been taken? Would you? I doubt whether the opinion of the nation at large would regard with relief the failure of this serious and earnest attempt to clear out of the road all these outstanding controversial questions. They would rather feel that Parliament had proved its own incompetence to deal with comparatively simple and obvious matters such as these, and Parliamentary institutions themselves would be brought into contempt. The Noble Lord yesterday, in the course of his very vivid and entertaining speech, said that our business would be to postpone the matter until in a quiet hour we could give attention to the best means of securing a really worthy electorate—that we had to devise some mechanism to distinguish between the worthy and the unworthy electors. Where is the mechanic to be found who can create any method such as that?
What method are you to adopt in order to fulfil the desire of the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Wilson-Fox) to distinguish between the thoughtful voter and the non-thoughtful voter? I have seen at the Mint an automatic balance which deals with the stream of sovereigns as they come through, and casts out on one side those which are even a grain over weight and those which fall short of their respective weights, passing those which are of the right weight. But you cannot weigh men by any automatic balance. If only you could, the problems of democracy and government would be very much simpler than they are. You may adopt in these broad distinctions age and race, and hitherto it has been thought possible also sex. Universally age, of course, is regarded as a qualification for citizenship You must in many parts of the world have regard to fitness which is tested by the simple test of race, and you can test the question whether you are or are not adopting the broad distinction of sex as a boundary line, but I think everyone will admit that you cannot adopt any method of educational test as a means of discriminating between those who should be voters and those who should not. No test has been more discredited than the test of property. You must necessarily take the mass—the good with the bad—and trust to them, and, in the long run, they will prove trustworthy. And that is the fundamental argument which justifies such a wide extension of the franchise as this which the Government now propose.
With respect to the particular points of the Bill, I do not propose to say anything on this occasion with regard to the vexed question of women's suffrage and proportional representation. With respect to the latter there are, of course, valid arguments on both sides, and it is a question of weighing one against the other and coming to a conclusion. For myself, I can only say that I regard the proposal for proportional representation with very much doubt, but I should prefer to reserve to an occasion when we are discussing that alone, if opportunity offers, any observation I may have to make with regard to it. The alternative vote for single-member constituencies, I think, is generally supported. The House may remember that in 1910 my right hon. Friend the late Prime Minister (Mr. Asquith) appointed a Royal Commission to examine all these questions, and that Royal Commission reported in favour of tree alternative vote for single-member constituencies and against, though with some hesitation, the proposals for proportional representation and the transferable vote for other constituences. It is, perhaps, unfortunate that the Bill has not been able to unify the Parliamentary and the local government registers and to have only one register for all purposes. It would introduce much greater simplcity into our electoral methods, but that has not been possible, apparently because it would have enfranchised the whole body of women. Therefore they created an electorate which included the majority of women and would not have included the limitation which the Speaker's Conference proposed, based upon limiting the women's franchise to local government electors. With regard to the period of election, I notice that the Bill provides they should cover a period of nineteen days. That is somewhat a disheartening prospect, that the period should be so long as that. At the present time the maximum period in the boroughs is nine days and in the counties seventeen days. To hold out the probability of a General Election which is to last for practically three weeks is perhaps a matter which will require further consideration in Committee.
With respect to the costs of election, Clause 25 proposes that outside organisations shall not be allowed to carry on propaganda in a constituency for the purpose of promoting or securing the election of any candidate. But many of these organisations would claim that their propaganda was not directed to promoting or procuring the election of any particular candidate. The Bill needs to be made somewhat clear in order to effect the admirable purpose at which this Clause is aimed. With respect to re-distribution, I am very glad indeed to find that the Government have not shelved this matter, in spite of the obvious difficulties that arise of ascertaining what is now the population of any particular district. During the War there has been, of course, considerable transfers of population from place to place, and it will probably be some years before the country has quite settled down in the various localities and the permanent population of each district can be more or less accurately ascertained, though, of course, there must always be changes—and considerable changes. The Government have adopted the method of taking the population at the middle of the year 1914 as the basis for their redistribution, and, although that must lead to a certain num- ber of anomalies and inequalities, I think it is better, on the whole, to accept this plan than postpone redistribution altogether and allow gross inequalities and absurdities in the distribution of seats to continue even for a few years. I am not quite clear, after hearing the speech of the hon. Member for Bridgwater (Colonel Sanders) yesterday, what would be the effect of the Bill on the numbers of this House, if the Home Rule Act is put into operation. Perhaps my right hon. Friend the Secretary of the Local Government Board or some other Member of the Government may be able to give an answer to that point. The instructions to the Commissioners who are to consider the boundaries are to the effect that they are to redistribute the seats in Great Britain —that is to say, 567 seats in this island; but the hon. Member for Bridgwater told us that his investigation of the instructions to the Commissioners led him to the conclusion that if they carried out those instructions they would not be able to confine the number of seats to such as would return 567 Members, but would have to so arrange them as to return them and the larger number of Members to this House. That would mean, if the present number of Irish representatives continued, that the total of this House would be increased, and I believe most Members will agree with me that would be a disadvantage. If there is to be any change it should rather be in the direction of some restriction of the number of this House than of an extension. Of course, if the 567 Members are still elected in Great Britain, and the Home Rule Act comes into operation in the form in which it has passed Parliament, the Irish Members will be reduced in number from 103 to 42 and the House will be reduced by sixty-one Members and will no longer contain 670 Members but 609. Perhaps my right hon. Friend the Secretary of the Local Government Board or some other Member of the Government will tell us exactly how that matter stands, and whether the instructions to the Boundary Commissioners for the number of Irish Members guaranteed by the Act of Union is to be maintained, and whether the House will be enlarged beyond its present dimension.
The exclusion of Ulster may operate.
I am afraid we cannot expect the Government to tell us exactly how these things will operate and how a problematical condition may ultimately turn out.
Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that the larger the electorate the fewer should be the members?
No; I would not suggest that at all, but you are doubling your electorate and I should be sorry if you doubled your Parliament. I do not know that you should necessarily have a direct relation or variation in the number of Members according to the number of electors, and I do not know that these matters are in any way connected together. Parliament has remained at its present numbers for the last hundred years, although the electorate has been vastly increased. My last point is in regard to the instructions to the Commissioners in the Report of the Speaker's Conference, which says that a borough which has two Members, if the defect in the population is 20,000 or less, shall not be disfranchised, although it falls below the proper quota to return a Member to this House. They also say that a county shall be in the same position, but they do not say that a county division should be in that position. The consequence appears to be that if three boroughs have a population of 150,000 they will retain their three Members, but if three county divisions have a population of 150,000 persons they will lose a Member. I do not know whether I have correctly interpreted the Instructions to the Commissioners. If so, it seems to me that there is some inequality between agricultural and urban contituencies in that respect. Those are the only points I ask the attention of the Government to at this stage. There will be a considerable number of minor points which will be raised in Committee as they arise. In regard to the Bill as a whole, those who sit on these benches will, of course, give the measure their most active support—by speech when speech is necessary, and by silence on the more frequent occasions when silence will be most helpful.
Hear, hear, because it is a party Bill.
I hope the Noble Lord will do the same. Why he should say it is a party Bill, when a majority of everybody in this House supported its introduction, I am at a loss to understand. At all events, we do not regard it as a party measure
Hear, hear!
As the Noble Lord is well aware, there are things in this Bill which the party to which I belong are resolutely opposed. Nevertheless, we shall do everything we can to secure its passage, because we believe it is in the permanent interests of the nation.
I confess that I have some sympathy with the main Amendments to the Motion now before the House which appear on the Order Paper, the effect of which is that this Bill should not be pressed forward while the country is engaged in a gigantic war. When I was on leave from France a month or two ago I was approached in this House with a request that I should put my name to a paper supporting this proposition, and I did so. I have, however, since reconsidered my views, and I am now clearly of the opinion that, considering that this Bill is the result of a non-party conference, and that it carries out the recommendations of a body which represented all parties in this House, I now think that this is not the time at which the members of the party to which I belong should oppose this measure. I had the privilege of being in the House yesterday when the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord Hugh Cecil) gave us his most witty and sparkling speech in which he enlikened you, Mr. Speaker, to Mr. Benger and the members of the Committee over which you presided, or rather the resolutions to which they came as Benger's Food with which an invalid assembly was to be forcibly fed by having this stuff thrust down its relaxed throat. I entirely dissent from that view and it seems to me that the contrary is the case. That is simply a travesty of the facts and an inaccurate statement of the present state of affairs.
I was not in the House at the time, but I think I am right in saying that the resolutions of this Conference have already been discussed in the House of Commons and have been approved by a very large majority in this House. I welcome the main principles upon which this Bill is based, and as a Conservative I do not feel that if I support this Bill I am going contrary to old-established Conservative principles. I was reading the other day Sir William Anson's well-known book on "The Laws and Customs of the Constitution," and we find there that the earliest franchise was based upon a residential qualification. The qualifications of property and occupation have really grown up since, and I do think that in supporting a residential franchise which is the basis on which this Bill is framed, I as a Conservative am supporting what is really a good old Tory principle coming down from the reign of Henry VI. The main point to which I wish to draw the attention of the House is the provisions of this Bill in so far as they do not refer to Ireland. As a representative of a North of Ireland constituency I am principally concerned with that aspect of the Act. Before I come to that point, however, I should like to say a word or two on the question of women's suffrage, which is the most contentious and far and away the largest question dealt with in this measure. Most hon. Members who speak upon this question of women's suffrage have to start with a recantation of principles which they formerly held, or else with an avowal that they stick to their principles. I confess that I have to make a recantation. I do not profess to have studied this question really thoroughly, but I was opposed to women's suffrage previous to the War, and I was opposed to it primarily and mainly upon three grounds: Firstly, because I was not convinced that women's suffrage was clearly demanded by the great body of women themselves; secondly, I opposed it because I have always thought that the extension of the franchise to women must mean sooner or later the entry of women into Parliament; and thirdly, I, in common, I suppose, with numbers of people throughout the country and in this House, opposed women's suffrage because of the most unfortunate and disgraceful campaign with which it was urged previous to the War. For the moment I should like to examine the main consideration which have caused me to alter my opinion.
With regard to the first point, I am not yet convinced that the women of the country, as a whole, desire the suffrage even to-day. Really we have had nothing to indicate that that is so. With regard to that point I am still unconvinced. The reason upon which I have always based my view with regard to women sitting in Parliament was largely on physical questions. This question of women's suffrage is one upon which we have got to speak plainly, and it is no earthly use talking about it and considering it when there are aspects of the question which must be dealt with if we are to deal with the question at all in an adequate manner. I always thought that there are times at which women, for physical reasons, would not be able to take a proper part in the difficult and harassing occasions of a legislative assembly. That objection still remains, but at the same time it seems to me that we have got to consider whether this question of women sitting in Parliament, for which for various reasons they are not altogether suited, should cause us to vote against the principle of their getting the vote. I think it should not. I think that the women should get the vote even though, for the reasons I have mentioned, it might be quite another question as to whether they should sit in the House of Commons or not. I have always understood that one of the main arguments against votes for women is that as women cannot take part in war and cannot fulfil the full duties of citizenship they therefore should not be entitled to vote. It is true that women cannot take part in war, but they do bear their part in other aspects of our life which are perhaps more important than war. I never cease to marvel at the courage and fortitude with which women face childbirth, and in my view, although they cannot fight for their country, they do, in respect of that matter alone, bear in the general life of any community or any nation a part fully as great as that which men bear when they go to war and fight their country's battles. I must confess that the general conduct of women during this War, and the fact that they have undertaken physical duties which I personally should have thought it impossible for them to carry out, have caused me, possibly illogically, in view of the reasons with which I supported my former opinion, to change my view, and I shall certainly not oppose this Bill on any question of extending the franchise to women.
I come now to the question of Ireland. Yesterday the Home Secretary was asked whether this Bill was based upon the supposition that the Home Rule Act would be in operation when it was brought into force, and the answer he gave was that the Bill was based on no such assumption, and that the question of Home Rule being in operation or not being in operation was never considered at all. That very important portion of the Bill dealing with redistribution does not apply to Ireland at all. The logical thing for the Government to have done would to have been to have left Ireland out altogether if they base the Bill on the assumption that the Home Rule Act will be in force when it comes into operation, or else, on the contrary assumption, to have extended the whole of its provisions to Ireland. They have adopted a middle and an illogical course. I gather further, from what the Home Secretary said yesterday, that the reason which the Government put forward for not extending the Redistribution Clauses to Ireland is that the Speaker's Conference left Ireland out. The Bill is brought forward as a Government measure, and the Government should be prepared to support the various clauses and sections contained in it and should not hide behind the report of the Speaker's Conference as a reason why they do not make the Bill apply to this or that question. The Government have brought in their Bill, and they must stand or they must fall by it. If they do stand by it, I ask them to make some statement to-day which will give a clear and logical reason for the exclusion of Ireland from the Redistribution Clauses.
I was returned as a Member of this House in order to safeguard to the best of my ability the interests of the Unionists of Ulster, and the Bill is highly deleterious, and I may say dangerous to the interests of that part of the country which I represent. I support the main principles of the Bill, but I support them as a whole, and while I am quite prepared to agree to the taking away of the property qualification of various franchises which have existed up to to-day, and where, in the North of Ireland, where the different parties in the electorate are very evenly balanced, probably caused majorities—in my favour, while I am perfectly prepared to give up those constituencies, if they should go under this Bill—I am not prepared to do it unless at the same time we are to get redistribution which will give the people of Ulster fair representation in this Parliament. It is common knowledge that there are constituencies in Belfast with 12,000, 15,000, 16,000, and up to 20,000 electors, and possibly even more returning Unionist members to this House. The same number of voters returning one member for each of these constituen- cies in Belfast return as many as six Members in various other parts of the South and West of Ireland. There is no part of the United Kingdom which so clearly demands a redistribution scheme as Ireland, and it has been left out of the Bill, not apparently out of any consideration for the position on the Home Rule question, but simply because the Speaker's Conference left it out. I think the Government should be able to defend it if they can, otherwise they should either leave Ireland out of the Bill altogether or extend the redistribution to Ireland. I have no doubt the Ulster Unionist Party will move Amendments in Committee to carry out these views and press them very strongly.
In addition to that, with regard to our action to-day, we shall individually exercise our own judgment as to whether we vote for it or not. I intend to vote for it in spite of the many points in it which I have been compelled to criticise, but I shall vote for it, not really for this or for that provision which it contains, but because I consider that this question of the franchise has to be dealt with sooner or later, and it is a matter which we can reasonably deal with in time of war. I cannot help feeling that, as a result of the Bill, when peace is declared our soldiers may come back to a happier land than that which they left. It is because I think this Bill will help towards improving conditions in this country, or, at any rate, that it will eventually lead to an improvement in the conditions of the country, that I feel that, because of the War, and not in spite of the War, it is on the general principles embodied in the Bill my duty to support it. Six weeks or so ago, I was on the Vimy Ridge, and, walking about there one saw numbers of dead lying about. There was one man who has remained fixed in my memory ever since. It was one of our own men, a young corporal. He was sitting in a shallow shell hole with his steel helmet just over his eyes, as though he were shading them from the sun, while he gazed in contemplative mood upon all the destruction, devastation, death and horrors of war which were all round. He was quite dead. There were no marks upon him. There was no blood, and there were no signs of a violent death. He sat there in this quasi contemplative way, amidst all the scenes and ruins of the field of battle. That man died for his country, and for the principles for which we are fighting, and it is because I sincerely and honestly think it is our duty to do what we can to insure that the country for which he died shall be made, if possible, a better and happier and a brighter place for those people who live in it, and I hope the Bill in its eventual result will lead to that, that I shall support the Bill, though there are many points which I, and I am authorised to say the other members of the Ulster Unionist party, will certainly very strongly oppose in Committee.
It is with great reluctance and much hesitation that I have come to the conclusion that it is my duty to vote against the Second Reading. I do not think that the House should be asked to spend a great portion of its time during this War on problems which will for a long period divert the attention of the House, and probably all sections of the country, from the great object of prosecuting the War and the measures necessary for that purpose. There are other grounds on which I think we ought not to proceed with the Bill. One has just been mentioned. The Bill does not deal with Ireland. If we are going to have a reformed House of Commons and a new Representation of the People Bill, surely Ireland while she is part of the United Kingdom should be dealt with in it. The same principle should apply to Ireland, and the over-representation of Ireland on the present basis should receive the consideration of the House, just as the over-representation of portions of the United Kingdom are proposed to be dealt with. On that ground alone I think the House would be justified in declining to proceed with the Bill. It is a remarkable fact that this House was elected in one of the most tumultuous elections of modern times to deal with the problem of the Second Chamber. It has never dealt with that problem, but we are now told it is the duty of the House to deal with its own Constitution and remodel it. It is to that that we are now devoting our attention, and neglecting the mandate, if there is such a thing, to deal with the other Chamber and consider that problem for which the House was elected. On that ground alone we ought not to make great constitutional changes in this country until we, at any rate, have decided what form our Second Chamber is to take or what powers it is to exercise in the Constitution. The present Second Cham- ber is without adequate powers to deal with various questions as they arise, such as are possessed by all other Second Chambers in the principal democratic countries of the world. That is an anomaly which ought to be dealt with. On that ground alone the Government has no right to present to the House a Bill of this magnitude, at any rate, without presenting also a solution of the problem of the Second Chamber and making proposals for dealing with that question. The truth of the matter is that the Government has been led stage by stage into a morass of great, far-reaching questions, all of which require consideration and time. It is no use for them to plead that because they have dealt with so much they cannot deal with any more. It is quite useless to discuss these questions of franchise as logical questions. They are all questions of expediency. Representative government is not a logical institution. It cannot be argued or justified on logic. It is merely a convenient and useful method of carrying on government, claiming the assent of the people to the proceedings of the Government of the day and exercising control upon the proceedings of the Government which the people disapprove of. The whole thing is convenient and has been generally accepted, but it is not logical.
I come to another reason why this Bill should not be proceeded with as it is presented to the House. One of the most important parts of the Bill, perhaps the most important next to the extension of the franchise on a wide scale—if that were alone represented I should support it without hesitation—is the redistribution of seats. Mr. Speaker's Conference and the Government appear to have proceeded, except in the case of universities, the City of London and Ireland, on the assumption that counting noses is the way in which political influence should be exercised. That has never been so in this country before. I make the great admission that I think, on the whole, it is desirable that there should be some approximation to equality as to the value of one man's vote compared with another. But there is such a thing as taking care that interests vital to this country are adequately represented in this House, even though the number of the persons interested in those industries does not entitle them to so large a number as others. One of the great changes in the Bill is to sweep away to a very great extent the representation of agricultural areas. It has always been a principle in any franchise or redistribution Bill in the past that the great national industry of agriculture should, as the result of the changes made, obtain adequate representation in this House, but on the principle of counting noses that is being very greatly swept away. A great number of agricultural representatives have disappeared, and the towns and urban districts will obtain a proportionately larger representation. I put forward for the consideration of this House that a policy of that kind is not wise or reasonable at present. Everyone is agreed now that agriculture and those interested and employed in it have been grossly neglected for a great number of years past, to the great damage and loss of the nation, and now when we are making changes of this kind you are sweeping away still further the voice of agriculture in the future in the House of Commons. But it does not appear to be noticed that on a uniform basis of population of 70,000 in each constituency, agricultural areas would be very unfairly treated. It is the policy of every party in the House, and of every Member, that a great effort should be made to revive agriculture, to bring back more people to the land, to repopulate the rural districts and to revive cultivation as the greatest national asset which we or any nation can have. So that if you start to establish agricultural constituencies on a basis of 70,000 and also proceed on this policy of revival, in a very few years agricultural areas will be grossly under-represented and you will have to proceed further with redistribution.
We have, I think, a great complaint to make in the way in which the Bill deals with the whole question of redistribution. It is smuggled away out of sight and out of the control of the House. How many of us think that the basis of a rural area should not be 70,000 but some less number—45,000 or 50,000. Meanwhile, by the action of the Government, a Committee is being set up to arrange details of redistribution on a basis of 70,000. Before we can discuss and get the opinion of the House on this most important matter this Committee is asked to prepare schedules, at a later period to be inserted in the Bill, and the House will then be at liberty to discuss these schedules. If the House decides that an Amendment on the lines I have indicated is a right Amendment, the labours of the Committee will be thrown away. This procedure has never happened on previous Redistribution Bills. On all occasions, as far as I know, the House has approved and conceded the general principle on which redistribution is to take place and a Boundary Commission has then been set up to carry out those principles, and it has taken evidence of localities and looked into the conditions of the various areas with which it has to deal to make the best adjustment it can in order that the constituencies which have been carved out shall represent a fair homogeneity of interests and shall not be a patchwork of incongruous elements put together fortuitously. We do not know on what principle the present Commission is proceeding. Is it going to take evidence, is it going to hold local inquiries, to give some consideration to local opinion and the ebb and flow of local interests in the different areas? We know nothing of that kind. Everything is secret and hidden from us. On that ground we have the greatest possible complaint. I am not blaming the Commission or Mr. Speaker, but the Government for the course which they have taken. I think the House has great right to complain and we shall have to take steps to remedy it if we find that the occurrences arising out of this procedure are unacceptable to the House.
I have reluctantly come to the opinion that it is my duty to vote against the Second Reading. If this were a Bill to extend the franchise to soldiers alone, I should have no hesitation in voting for it. The statements on behalf of the Government late last night, have removed some of the apprehensions I have felt as to the machinery to be set up for giving soldiers the vote. I still think the explanation unsatisfactory, but what gave me, and I think many others, satisfaction was the readiness expressed by the Government to remedy the machinery, to extend their proposals and to carry out to the full the desire of the House that those who have fought for the country shall have a right to representation in this assembly. If it were a measure to extend the franchise at once, I should support it, but because it raises so many and such vast and sweeping questions, and only settles a portion of them, leaves out Ireland, leaves out the Second Chamber, deals grossly unfairly with agricultural areas, I feel it my duty to vote against the Government and in Committee I shall use my best endeavours to secure such Amendments as will make it more acceptable from those points of view.
6.0 P.M.
The House is probably agreed upon one fact—that is, that if by any sudden exigency it became necessary to hold a General Election at the present moment, the register and the systems upon which that General Election would be decided would satisfy nobody. I do not think any hon. Member who has yet spoken has suggested that with the present arrangements anybody would be satisfied. If that is true, something has got to be done. It is quite impossible for us in this Parliament, with all the immense uncertainties of the present War, to feel any safety at all if we attempt to say to ourselves that we will do without a General Election till the end of the War. We cannot say that. No one knows what the morrow may bring forth in the way of that necessity. If that is true, the first thing the House has to do in considering this Bill is to say to itself, if something has got to be done, something strong, something definite, something that will materially alter the present state of affairs, is there any alternative to this proposal which is likely to command a larger measure of assent? Who would tolerate for a moment that all the soldiers and sailors, and I will not say all, but a very large number, of War workers who have lost their registration, should be disfranchised if an election were needed? We could not and would not tolerate it. I start with that as the first premise. I venture next to approach it from a point of view which is of the greatest moment to the nation, although in a sense it is to me personal—from the point of view of the necessities of reconstruction after the War. I have the honour to be a member of the Prime Minister's Reconstruction Committee, and, sitting on that Committee, I have been impressed more profoundly than I can possibly say to this House with the immense variety and the vast magnitude of all the problems presented to that Committee, problems which, in my humble judgment, have got to be solved if the new nation—for it will be a new nation—moulded by the War is to have its path set on broad lines of national prosperity, happiness, and well-being in the future. If that is to be done, much legislation on the more urgent problems will have to be passed before the end of the War—much of it, in my opinion, this year—and the moment the War is ended this House will be overwhelmed with problems of vital importance to the national welfare.
That being so, do we want to deal with those problems or do we want, the moment the War is over, to be faced with the necessity of a long series of bitter controversies as to registration, distribution, and modes of election, with all the old party caucuses trying—I hope in vain—to get back their grip? To-day, during the War, we are all prepared to deal with those problems, or most of us are, with a certain amount of give-and-take, and, above all things, with a recognition that the man who differs from us, differs from us because he has deep convictions and, like ourselves, is aiming at national advantage. That atmosphere we want to see preserved in this House. I believe that a settlement of these very controversial questions by practical agreement on the lines of this Bill will achieve that result. Another argument based on the necessity of reconstruction is this: In all these great issues of reconstruction, every section of the community will be interested, and for that reason I submit that every section of the community ought to be represented in this House when it has to deal with those questions. No one can say that under the present system they are fully represented. There is one class in particular whom we have come to regard as a class, although it is an odd expression, the women. This Bill proposes to enfranchise some 6,000,000 women. Before the War I was always consistently opposed to any measure at all of Parliamentary franchise for women, but for two reasons I now think they ought to be given the vote. One is that I think that they have shown, by their work during the War, that they are fit to exercise it; the other, that the industrial problems of the employment of women that will have to be solved after the War will be so vital that I think women ought to have the vote in order to be represented in this House. Even had I remained opposed to woman suffrage I would have said strongly that this Conference affords the only reasonable basis of an acceptable all-round compromise, and that even on so important a matter as woman suffrage the individual Member should subordinate his opinion for the sake of achieving the generally agreed result. If we are agreed on the broad outlines of the propositions that I have indicated it necessarily follows that we must accept the broad outlines of the plans embodied in this Bill as resulting from Mr. Speaker's Conference. All those who are agreed that something must be done, that for the sake of reconstruction it must be done now, that all the different bodies of opinion in the country must be adequately represented in the process of moulding the new life of the nation that we call reconstruction—if you accept all these premises, then I challenge any Member to put before this House any alternative to the main outlines of the drawing delineated in this Bill. One of the proposals of the Bill and of Mr. Speaker's Conference which to me is a vital proposal—a proposal that was unanimously adopted by the Conference—is that of proportional representation. I personally have been a believer in proportional representation ever since I took any interest in public life; but I want, if the House will permit me, very shortly to put a few reasons in favour of it. I should like to begin by answering a body of objections put against it. Every Member of the House will probably have received an encyclical from his party organisation. I received one containing a very long list of Unionist reasons why proportional representation was bad. Liberal Members probably received from their organisation an equally long list of reasons why proportional representation was bad. I venture to look behind those two sets of reasons and to put a question. I put it in this way: I ask my Liberal Friends in this House, of whom to-day I am glad to say there are more than there were before the War, to consider why Sir John Boraston, the Chief Conservative agent, is so opposed to proportional representation? I suggest to them that the answer is because he thinks that the power of the Conservative organisation over Members of this House or over the election of Members to this House would be considerably lessened. I therefore suggest, in all simplicity, to my Liberal Friends that they should welcome proportional representation because it would tend to destroy the power of the Conservative organisation over the return of Members to this House. And to my Unionist Friends I say, paritur paribus, accept the proposals because the Liberal organisation so dislikes them. I believe that there is a truth—a fundamental truth—in these observations which I venture to address to the House upon the action taken by the two party organisations. It is this: That under proportional representation the power of the party machine will be less than under the present system.
It is said by some who have not seen the working of proportional representation in other countries, and who, I venture to think, have not taken the trouble to read the very simple literature there is on the subject, that proportional representation tends to the creation of groups. I believe that to be an absolute misstatement of facts; and, if you come to think of it, a little consideration will show that it is so. Under proportional representation every substantial minority of opinion in the large area which elects five or six Members, or whatever the number may be, has the right to nominate its own Member of Parliament. Although that is so there is nothing to prevent the main party organisation—and I regard the party system as essential to the good working of all democratic institutions—putting on its list the candidates that it thinks desirable. That is what happens in every country where proportional representation obtains. It happens in Belgium, as I know, having been there at the time of an election and discussed it with a friend of mine who was the Chief Liberal Member for the City of Antwerp. What he told me there is only common sense, and it is that the party organisation names its men by choosing those who are in broad agreement with the party policy, but just because it recognises that minorities can be represented, and can choose their own men of their own preference, the choice it exercises is considerably wider than is the case with our single constituency system.
The Belgian list system is not that of the Bill.
The result is the same in principle. Under the system of successive preference, the voter names his preference 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5. Each particular section of voters will have a main political party to which it belongs, and it will have different views on minor questions. The party machine knowing that, chooses men to represent those different shades of party opinion within the main framework of the party, and in that way the party organisation as an organisation, is preserved, while at the same time the individual Member of Parliament has a much greater liberty of individual opinion on matters which he regards as matters of importance, and which those who send him to Parliament regard as matters of importance. Under proportional representation the strong man, the honest man, the man who has breadth of vision, and political foresight, and who sees ahead is sure of being elected. The good man will get in. Take as an illustration the opposite system. What happened to Mr. Hughes in Australia? Because they had not got the proportional representation system there, Mr. Hughes was, I think, six months in the wilderness without a seat, because he was not willing to remain bound by the Labour Party pledge, which is exacted so rigorously in Australia by labour of its representatives.
He was never without a seat.
He changed his seat.
At a fresh election he came out for another seat, but he was always in a seat.
A seat was found for him but he lost his old seat in his old constituency, simply because they had not got the proportional representation system. In saying that he was in the wilderness I was wrong, and I am obliged for the correction. My point is that there was a large number of electors in his old constituency where he was turned out who would have voted for him had there been proportional representation. If there had been proportional representation there would have been a large constituency with a number of members, and he would have got in the larger constituency a sufficient number of preferences to secure his re-election. I believe that to be an absolutely verifiable point. These are a few points about proportional representation. I want to say something about its simplicity. The commonest argument against proportional representation is that nobody will understand it. I believe it has never been given up by any country that has adopted it. On the contrary, history shows in every case, I believe, that it has been extended further and further by every country that has tried it.
Not in Tasmania.
I have the history of Tasmania, but it is too detailed to justify me in troubling the House with it. I know there is dispute about Tasmania, and I will leave it at that. I observe, however, that the hon. Member for N.-W. Durham (Mr. A. Williams), who is an authority on this subject, shook his head at the statement made by my hon. Friend opposite. I will be content with that shake of the head. The system is absolutely simple. Each elector is told, "Choose your men amongst the candidates in the order in which you prefer them." Surely any elector can do that. That being done, the rest is mere automatic machinery, and I believe that with an efficient staff of clerks every election could be announced the next morning as soon as any county election is announced to-day. I do make a most earnest appeal to the House to carry the Bill as it is in its broad outlines. Every section of the House, I believe, has given up some pet nostrum. The Bill, taken as a whole, emanates from a Conference which represented all the different parties in this House. In the course of the War we have all of us sat on many committees and some of us on conferences, and I think the experience of every one of us has been that the habit of give-and-take, the habit of trying to understand the other man's point of view, has on these committees resulted in an astonishing measure of good work. The reports of committees—and I have been privileged to see a very large number in connection with the Reconstructional Committee—made during the War have often been astounding productions of political wisdom. The Speaker's Conference, presided over with that judgment and common sense which we have all learned to respect for so long, was, in my opinion, a typical Conference, where the different points of view were considered and discussed in a way that set debate in this House does not make possible; and I submit to the House that we ought to attach very considerable weight to the fact that that Conference, composed of a number of sensible men with profoundly different views, has come to a practically unanimous decision. That fact in itself ought to weigh. I close with an appeal to the House. There is no other alternative. Let us take it. Accept it in its main lines, and do not in Committee try to destroy it. Improve it in details, consistent with its main policy, but, subject to that, pass it.
I rise to emphasise the appeal made by the last speaker. I was one of those who sat through many long and detailed sittings of this special Con- ference, and I am bound to say that I never sat in any conference or on any committee where things were thrashed out with such detail and where every point of view received an opportunity of the fullest expression. I would go further and say that I have never sat in any conference where there was a more evident desire shown to reach a practical agreement, not by everyone getting their own way, but by an attempt to meet the real needs of the situation, which are very urgent at this hour. Speaking for the party to which I belong, I may say we have always stood for the fullest and the widest measure of franchise for the people of this country. We have stood emphatically for adult suffrage. We have said that every male and every female of the required age should be given the vote. Being what may be called the very advanced section of this House in regard to the franchise question, we came to the conclusion that we could not get all our own way—that was an impossibility—and that it was necessary under the circumstances that we should arrive, if possible, at a practical agreement which would take us a long way on the road to real franchise reform. We have since put our views before a conference, and we have secured the adhesion of that conference to the conclusion of the Report, and practically to the Bill as it now appears before the House. We have done that not without a great deal of difficulty, and not without having to face what members of other parties are having to face. We had strong representations of the same kind which have been addressed to Members of the House from other parties. It was said that we had not stood out, and that we had not secured all that we wanted, and that there was no possible way but the whole-hog way. Our point of view has been put before the Conference, and we have secured a practically unanimous expression of opinion in favour of this Report and in favour of this Bill. I do not put that forward as an absolute reason why the House of Commons should pass the Bill, but as an indication of the spirit in which the Labour forces of the country are prepared to deal with this great and practical problem. If that is our attitude, surely we can appeal to hon. Members here with confidence that they will set aside old prejudices against franchise reform and join with us in try- ing to secure practical unanimity upon this great problem. Let there be no mistake about it, the problem cannot be left alone. The country will not submit, and it has no right to submit, to the situation under which we exist at present.
I am one of those who have voted, along with other hon. Members, not very willingly for an extension of the life of the present Parliament. I think it is a scandal in many ways that we are in a position in which we cannot hold a real General Election at the present moment. We must have some machinery, some means of doing it, and I say frankly that an appeal for a General Election for a Parliament which is to consider problems of after the War on the old electorate, on the old register, on the old conditions, would not meet with that acceptance from the country which would give a Parliament so elected the moral authority to pass legislation affecting the lives of the people to the degree in which such legislation must affect them. We live, it is true, in strenuous and difficult times. It is true that the War Cabinet may have plenty to do with getting on with the War, but it is not true that this House of Commons has not sufficient leisure and sufficient opportunity to deal with this great problem and settle it provided that there is goodwill and a desire for accommodation, and that we are willing to sweep away for the next generation at any rate all controversy over franchise and redistribution and suchlike problems. Though this is not a final measure, for no measure of the kind can possibly be final, I believe that it will settle the franchise question for the next generation Let there be no mistake. Many of us gave up some of the views which we have held tenaciously for the whole of our political life and have agreed to things that we never dreamt we should ever be called upon to agree to or ever be willing to agree to. Some of my Friends may say, perhaps with a certain amount of truth, that some of the things which we wanted were not yet accomplished facts and some of the things which have been given up by other parties were accomplished facts, and that it was more difficult for them to give up something which they have than for us to give up something which we want. That may be perfectly true, but remember that it is very much more difficult to give up an opinion than to give up what I may call a certain amount of possession; and if we have given up those things and compromised on them it is only that we may in the end reach an agreement.
I do not propose to go into the details of the Bill. I do not myself like proportional representation in spite of the eloquent appeals which we have heard from the last speaker, but I am willing to give it a trial. I do not believe that there is that danger attached to it which some people seem to think, but I am not sure that it will do all that its promoters think that it will do. In those circumstances I am willing to give it a trial. But what I do ask the House of Commons to realise is this: we have great problems of social reform before us. The War has thrown institutions, ideas, and opinions all into the melting-pot, and we want to get the people of the country absolutely associated with this House in all its proceedings, and unless we can get the people with us there will be changes of another and worse character effected. I believe in constitutional reform. I believe that you can associate the people and the House of Commons and the Government together, and that the more closely you associate the people with this House the more certain will it be that the Government and the people will tend more and more to become one.
Proportional representation will do it.
In any case an enlargement of the franchise will do it, and a closer association of the people will do it, and therefore I desire to see this reasonable compromise brought to a successful consummation. There is a body of opposition to this Bill. I speak with respect of it. We had a body of opposition to the proposals at the Conference. But I want to appeal to the opposition to-day, while this matter is before the country, not to obstruct a real constitutional reform taking place now. We have plenty of time to consider it; the House of Commons is free to consider it, and if this franchise reform is not to meet with, as has so often happened in the past, a dead wall of opposition, which has provoked strong feeling to such an extent in the country that on all these occasions hitherto we have had the burning spirit of revolution spread among the people and there has actually had to be bloodshed before franchise reform was carried; if we do not want to provoke that result we must face these things in a calm atmosphere with a desire to have these things settled. The people will demand it. The thing to do is to pass this Bill with all reasonable despatch. I do not say every line or every detail of it. The members of the Speaker's Conference do not come here asking you to swallow a pill or to take Benger's Food. We ask you to take a pretty strong dose of real reform, and if you will take it, accept it on the basis on which it was laid down, the House will undoubtedly, during this War, do something which will associate the people of the country with the Government of the country in a manner in which they have never been associated in the past and the House of Commons will take on a new glory and a new position in the minds of the people.
I have listened with very great interest to the speeches which have been delivered in connection with this Bill, and I may say at once, as a man who has spent rather a long life in Australia, that none of the provisions which it contains in the slightest degree excite my alarm. But in order to do justice to the vote which I propose to give against the Second Reading of this Bill I should like to explain the basis of my action. I have no sort of animosity against the main principles of the Bill except to the new experiment of proportional representation which finds a place in it. We have not got that far yet in Australia, though it is such an advanced democratic community. If it is a sound principle, why not apply it all over this country? Why should minorities in one part of England remain under the evils of the present system while the proposal is applied to other parts of the country? It is an experiment. It has never been thrashed out in political circles in this country, so far as I know, in any national way, and it would be a good thing for the reform Parliament to deal with when it is constituted.
I am a devoted supporter of the Government and a great admirer of their conduct of public affairs, but what I want to say with great respect is that I have come into this House in the midst of war. I had not the honour of a seat in this House in prewar times, and my policy was, and is, that this War must be our supreme concern, especially when they are weighing out the food of the people by the ounce and calling upon some of our last reserves. It is said that we have plenty of time to deal with this Bill. In one sense we have. But what about this political truce? What about the arrangement under which all men of all parties and all sorts of principles—on franchise and other matters—consented to sink their differences in order to stand behind the Government in speeding on the vigorous prosecution of this War? I have noticed with great concern and apprehension a tendency to indulge in matters of grave consequence and with many burning elements, and I must say that I have no sort of sympathy, in this supreme crisis of the War, with the proposal to embark on the question now before us. There are multitudes of pressing questions. This House has surrendered its rights and privileges every day while We have been sitting here, for months and years. Why? For the reason which an hon. Member behind so touchingly described when, from a different point of view, he referred to the death struggles at the front. Yes, but those struggles are going on on many battlefields, day and night. Reference has been made to the present register, but if you pass an improved register to-morrow in the hope of solving all these problems of reconstruction to which the hon. and learned Member referred, how can the millions of our countrymen who are risking their lives on the battle fronts of various continents vote intelligently upon solving these great problems of construction when they are fighting for their lives in the trenches? They are cut off from their fellow citizens, the people of this country. The millions whom you enfranchise in this country are here in a state of peace and tranquillity. They enjoy the benefit of an intelligent discussion of these great problems in the Press of all sorts, while these others would not have the opportunity which the franchise should give of exercising a citizen's rights in that intelligent, deliberate way in which a citizen should exercise his rights in deciding these vital questions. I say that it is absolutely unthinkable to hold a General Election to decide such matters while our men are away abroad fighting for the interests of this country.
It is so easy for us to talk of solving questions of reconstructions. They will be hard enough to solve. The men who have most right to do that are the men who are saving our liberties at the front. My own view is that the Speaker's Conference, of which I speak with the greatest admiration because of the way in which it did its work, rendered a great service to the people of this country in arriving at a compromise of this kind, yet I want to see the end of the War in sight before we enter upon all these questions which still excite controversy and differences of opinion. There are some parties in this House who can accept these proposals with enthusiasm, but there are other men whose lifelong convictions are opposed to some of these proposals, and I regret that the time has come when the House is resolving itself again upon those old lines of party difference. I think that one of the grandest things about this Coalition is that party lines have disappeared. I say we do not want to have an election, and the people of the country want to see this War carried to an end. If this second Coalition Government cannot carry the House, then we must have a third one. We are not going to throw the destinies of this country and of the Empire into the melting pot, on any register, while this War is raging. I am not taking up any attitude of hostility over the provisions of this measure, and if a substantial majority of this House decides that it is to go on I shall give my support to everything in it of which I approve. That is a logical attitude to take up, and when the end of the War is in sight do not dream of having an election while our soldiers are fighting to preserve the liberties of our country.
With respect to the female franchise, some hon. Members, it would appear, have only discovered the good qualities of the other sex. I knew them before I could walk. I have never had any doubts about the merits of the question, and, as my hon. Friend behind me said, there is a tax which the women pay to the country in order to prolong its existence which is a heavier tax than any profit tax that is being paid at the present time. On the subject of the franchise we have got to remember that the Dominions are in a different position in this matter from the Mother Country. The Mother Country has hundreds of thousands of men all over the high seas, and in various parts of the Empire who are cut off from the opportunity of exercising the vote. That is not so in the Dominions. As to the compromise on these questions and the remedy of anomalies, the question of the vote to soldiers and sailors, and the alternative vote, and all these reforms, except the one experimental provision, which is too new a principle for us to take on trust on behalf of the electors, I give them my support. After all, the only basis on which this Bill is justifiable is that the majority of the people in this country are in favour of its provisions. I think they are as to the female franchise, and also as to the alternative vote, but I do not think anybody knows what the opinion of the people of this country is as to proportional representation. Under these circumstances and on the grounds I have stated, I think I must part company with my friends on this first Division in the hope that I may rejoin them on the first convenient opportunity.
The hon. Member who represents the constituency in which I am a voter has said that he is going to part company with the Government on the Second Reading, but with the earnest hope of rejoining them on a later occasion. If that argument were followed by every Member, or many Members, there would be no Government at all for him to rejoin in its support. If my right hon. Friend were to use all his influence and all his experience with a view to taking his friends into the Lobby against this measure and succeeded, obviously it would not matter that he desires to give a vote to the soldiers and sailors, or that he desires to give a vote to those good ladies whom he has worshipped from his youth upwards, for what opportunities would he have? I am surprised that my right hon. Friend, with his large Parliamentary experience, not only here but elsewhere, seems to think that though he gives a vote against the measure and obtains a majority against it, yet all the things that are in the measure will ultimately be carried. As Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board I have had some small share in the composition of this Bill, which I do not think I exaggerate when I describe it as the most comprehensive, the most compendious, and the most compact measure of Parliamentary reform ever submitted to the consideration of the House of Commons. Whatever may be our varied opinions as to the merits of this measure, I think all of us who have read it will agree that it is a model of a compact and clearly drafted Bill. It is, if I may say so, the magnum opus of a great master in the craft of Parliamentary drafting, one who has left that sphere of action, but who has left his mark upon our statute book—one who has most faithfully and skilfully carried out the plans prepared by the Conference in the many resolutions which it passed, and has sometimes placed upon the canvas full-length portraits when he had little but a photograph to work upon. I think we all owe him a debt of gratitude for the measure which he has given us, and, whatever may be its fate it will leave a great crop of very valuable fruit behind it.
I have listened to every speech made in this House on this matter, and I noted with great satisfaction that no speaker, even among those who have announced in the frankest manner that they are going to vote against the Second Reading, has attacked the cardinal principles of this Bill. All agree that we have for years past been longing for a simple form of franchise, and that we have been shocked at the idea that there should be altogether an interval of two and a half years from the time men commence their qualification to the time when they could exercise their vote. We have been longing for the time when we should have one simple franchise and one Act of Parliament, and when all the existing great mass of Acts of Parliament should be swept aside. Pass this Bill, and we carry out that object which we all have. Again, we have all longed for the time when the system of registration would be such that we should have a local authority whose duty it would be to put people upon the register. I think we have all been a little shocked, although we have all played the game, at the constant objections that have been taken to men who had perhaps a legitimate right to be upon the register. Most of us have read the novels of Lord Beaconsfield. I recollect very well reading one of them—"Coningsby"—and I recall the conversation between Taper and Tadpole and the Duke and the famous words which they used. The Duke said to Tadpole, "There are three immortal words—'register, register, register.'" Tadpole replied, "I can tell your Glace three far better ones—'object, object, object.'" That is the principle which has been going on in this country, and was going on long before Mr. Disraeli wrote that admirable novel. It has gone on for a great number of years. We all want to sweep away that Taper and Tadpole system. On the other hand, we are not going to sweep away the agents. After all, there is no reason—I speak as no party man—why the agents should think that they are going to be swept away. I do not think their living is going to be destroyed, and I believe that the agents, to whom the constituents owe so much, will have a vocation and work to do of which they will be far more proud than that of merely objecting to people being put upon the register. For my part, I think that the agents will be as much wanted by the constituencies, if not more wanted, than they have been before, especially if the House carries proportional representation and the alternative vote.
7.0 P.M.
I think we have all longed for years past for some system by which the cost of elections may be reduced and by which others than very rich men, or somebody dependent upon party funds, may obtain a seat in this House. Pass this Bill, and that kind of thing will be abandoned. We have all longed for the time when the vote shall have a value more equal, relatively, and that electoral power shall be more equally distributed throughout the country. We have all longed for that, to whatever party we belong. Pass this Bill, and these gigantic inequalities will disappear for ever. These things, after all, are things worth trying for. What are the objections? The Bill must be a compromise. It is a compromise. As my right hon. Friend opposite said to the House to-day, there are portions of the Bill which he extremely dislikes. I may say that there are portions of the Bill which certainly do not find favour in my mind; and as regards the Leader of the Labour party, it ought never to be forgotten that he was the first in this House to raise his voice in favour of some such Conference, and the first person to make this proposal. Now is the time to settle all these questions. It is a compromise, and for my part I think that whenever this House tries to settle this great question of the franchise, the question of redistribution, the question of the cost of elections, and the provision as to the time to be occupied by the election, these must be all matters of compromise; or, if they are not to be matters of compromise, the result will be that one Government after another will be turned out, and the whole time of the country will be occupied in devising adequate machinery for electioneering. As was eloquently said to-day, there are great questions which will engage the attention of the country— technical intruction, education, social reform, housing reform, Imperial reform—and when those subjects come before us that should not be the time when the whole of our energies should be engaged in quarrelling over some system of political electioneering machinery. In regard to this Bill, I believe there never was a more opportune time for it. There never was a time when any party—I do not care what party it is—need less fear the result of any great admission to the franchise, because I am certain of this, that no man can possibly prophecy or predict how the new electors, or the old electors, are going to vote. I do not believe that anybody can say within measurable distance of that which is correct, as to what will be the issues of the next election, who will be the leaders, how parties will be broken up, or what will be the cry. That is a time which certainly in my memory has not occurred before, and may possibly never occur again, and when we may all say so far as party is concerned, "let them all come." What are the objections to the Bill? Objections have been urged on principle and upon Clauses and Sub-sections of Clauses. There is the plea that this is a time of war, and that this is not a time when either the House or the country ought to give its attention and its thoughts to this great controversial question.
Hear, hear.
That argument is loudly cheered by my hon. and gallant Friend. I have heard it said that the soldiers will be very much discouraged in fighting in the trenches when they hear that we have launched this great measure, on which it is possible that a great deal of difference might arise. I have seen no signs of that up to the present, and I do not quite understand why soldiers should be angry, or contemptuous of the House of Commons, because the House of Commons is for the first time seeking some way in which to put them in possession of facilities for getting on the register. I know that my hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Sanders), who made a speech so vivacious and so full of delightful punch, that even those who felt his blows enjoyed them, and the hon. and gallant Member for Central Finsbury (Colonel Archer-Shee) seemed to doubt whether this measure would put soldiers and sailors in any large numbers on the register. I think my hon. and gallant Friend was satisfied by the speech of the Solicitor-General, and did come to the conclusion that the Bill, and especially Clause 5, will put the great majority of soldiers and sailors on the register. I trust that those hon. Members and the House generally will accept this assurance, that the promoters of the Bill had every desire in framing it to give as many opportunities, and easy opportunities, to soldiers and sailors to obtain a vote as it was possible to give them in any Act of Parliament. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about the use of the vote?"] Nobody has fought more ferociously, if I may use that word, than the Secretary of State for the Colonies that the wording of the Bill should be such that soldiers and sailors, as far as possible, shall be admitted not only to the privilege of the vote, but that they shall have the opportunity of giving the vote when they are entitled to it. If the Bill does not carry out the full purpose of the Resolutions of the Speaker's Conference in that respect, then I have authority for saying, and I am sure my right hon. Friend here will say so later on, that in Committee, the Government will very carefully consider Amendments put down for that purpose, and if flaws are detected we shall put down Amendments ourselves to see that the will of the House is carried out, by admitting to the utmost extent soldiers and sailors, and to see that they are not only entitled to the vote, but given the opportunity of using it.
We all have our personal predilections in these matters. I have had the opportunity, owing to my position as Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board, to consider this question, certainly for the last year. I know how extraordinarily difficult it is to give a practical effect in an Act of Parliament to one's wishes. I am as full of desire in the matter as my hon. and gallant Friend, and I think I have always been a good friend of soldiers and sailors. I should like to see their vote multiplied by many thousands, so far as I am concerned. But there is a real difficulty, which the House must acknowledge, as regards voting after you have got him on the Register. For my own part, I am a little sorry that the Conference, as I understand, turned down or rejected the system of voting by proxy. After all, the Bill can only be framed on the Resolutions of the Conference, and if the Government were to go outside of those recommendations and to pick and choose as to what they would or would not put in, then the Bill would not be a Bill founded on the Resolutions of that Conference. I have examined this question of voting by proxy at very considerable length and very often, and have taken part in framing a Bill for voting by proxy. For my own part, I believe that voting by proxy is the best way for soldiers and sailors, and it would give the opportunity to the soldier in Mesopotamia, in Egypt and other places to exercise the vote. I have proxies for relatives of mine who have gone to undertake the risks of battle and of mine sweeping in the sea, and by those proxies I can manage all their properties and do anything I like with them. Why should they not leave their proxies with me, or somebody like me whom they trust? Proxy voting was, however, rejected by the Conference, and I do not know whether it would be possible to bring that into the Bill, but I am allowed to say that so far as the powers given to soldiers and sailors to vote in their absence have been dealt with by the Speaker's Conference, and so far as the other provisions relating to soldiers and sailors getting the vote are concerned, we are prepared to consider Amendments, if those powers are not found to be already in the Bill.
Another argument is that people would be distracted from following the War, but from my experience at present if the people are distracted or discouraged at all, it is not by thinking about proportional representation but about the proportion of their rations, and they are thinking more about the high prices of food than about the Bill we are discussing at the present time. Then it is said that the attention of the House would be taken off war measures, and particularly that the attention of the Government would be so taken off. The War Cabinet very naturally have very little time to give to a measure of this kind, but after all my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, whom we are all so pleased to see in his place recovered from his illness, is just as well employed to my mind in carrying through this measure as in carrying through the Criminal Law Amendment Bill, and I cannot help thinking that I am just as well employed in trying to aid him in carrying this Bill through as in endeavouring to carry Bills through upstairs and downstairs dealing with venereal diseases. After all, if we can find time for Bills dealing with those other subjects, I think we can find time for dealing with great measures of reform of a constructive character. There are two arguments used against the Bill, which I think are very strong. I am bound to say I certainly think this is a very strong argument against the Bill, namely, that at the present time it is especially difficult for us to get into contact with the constituencies to consult them, and particularly to consult those constituencies which are likely to be remodelled by this Bill. I quite agree that that is a very powerful argument. But after all we have means of access to them and of acquainting them with what is going on. This Bill must, at all events, take some weeks in going through this House, and it will probably be some weeks before the Committee reaches that part of the Bill which deals with redistribution.
I have considerable sympathy with what my hon. and gallant Friend said with reference to agriculture. He said, very truly I am afraid, that when we do have redistribution it will diminish probably the actual representation of the agriculturist community. I think it will. But I think any Redistribution Bill would do that. I would advance these two arguments to my hon. and gallant Friend. Whatever Redistribution Bill you have, if you keep the same unit for the urban constituencies as for the rural constituencies, then, owing to the growth of population in the urban districts, your measure to a certain extent transfers power from the agricultural communities to the urban communities. I do not see how you are to avoid that unless you have a different unit for the urban and agricultural areas. I do not know that you could have that. I think it would be extraordinarily difficult to arrive at a different unit for the two areas, and to divide off the rural and urban areas. I do not wish to prosecute that argument, but I am going to use another which my hon. Friend perhaps may find a little more comforting. He has been away, but since he has been away he must have observed that, after all, the real needs and demands of agricultural people are obtaining an ever-increasing voice in this House, and that the urban communities have discovered of what enormous value agriculture is and agricultural interests. I believe that that new awakening of urban communities and of those who dwell in towns to the needs of the agricultural interests and as to their power to supply the wants of urban communities is likely to produce very great beneficial effects upon the point of view of the farmer and the agriculturist. That is the best grain of comfort I can give my hon. and gallant Friend. Wherever we go, those of us who represent urban constituencies, and the price of wheat and bread will do it and the price of all commodities, we must be active in bringing before our constituencies the necessity of keeping alive the great agricultural interests of the nation. Both those arguments I admit are very strong.
The Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord H. Cecil) made, I think, on the whole, the most violent objections to this Bill. He says it is a party measure. He shouted that out to-day so loudly that I could not help thinking that he hardly existed on the Benger's Food, which is only meant for infants, since he advertised that food last night, and I think a little Vim and Oxo must have been added to the Benger's at his supper. This is a measure which is the outcome of a Conference presided over by Mr. Speaker, on which all interests were adequately represented, and he christens it a party measure! To christen as a party measure that which has now been taken in charge by a Government on which all parties are represented—was there ever a worse use of the word "party"? I quite frankly admit that if we were not living in war-time, and under such peculiar and extraordinary circumstances, that it would be best perhaps to have the opportunity of consulting our constituents a good deal more than we are able to consult them now before we made this great alteration in the franchise. But, after all, we do not get very much help from such speeches as those made by my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster, and the hon. Member who made a very lively maiden speech to-day, and whose advent to this House we all welcome, the Member for North Warwickshire. They do not face the difficulties in which the House of Commons finds itself on this occasion. After all, we had to look at what were the alternatives. The hon. Member who made his maiden speech claims freedom for himself. Yes, Sir, we all value our freedom, but the more freedom we claim for ourselves the more we ought to fix upon ourselves full responsibility for the courses of action we are going to take. I would address myself to all those who think it an easy matter to solve this question by some alternative proposition. What are the alternatives?
The alternatives have been very well put twice to-day by my right hon. Friend opposite and the hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Labour party. There is the first alternative of just using the old register for your next election. That old register is now three years old. I have made inquiries in many constituencies as to what vote you are likely to get out of the old register, and I am told in several constituencies that you would not get more than a 30 per cent. vote. As a very old electioneerer, and one who has studied this question very intimately, I do not believe you are going to get a 40 per cent. vote over the country. Who will the voters be? Not the soldiers. Not the sailors. And, of course, no women. They will be the septuagenarians, the octagenarians, and the nonagenarians, with a few young people who on account of their unusual skill have kept their trade cards and are in munition factories, a handful of conscientious objectors, and those too physically infirm even to get into Class 3. They will be your electorate. They will elect the next House of Commons, and the next House of Commons will be the one that has to undertake all this enormous process of the problems of reconstruction. The thing is unthinkable! It was so unthinkable that we ourselves passed an Act of Parliament by which it was enacted that if an election was taken on an old register such as that, that Parliament should only last for two years. How would such a Parliament spend those two years? One of the things it would have to do would be to do precisely what we are doing to-day—frame a Bill to deal with franchise, registration and redistribution, and just after the election had taken place, with all its bitterness and old controversies and party feeling brought up again! That is the first alternative. Does not the whole House dismiss it?
What is the second alternative? The second alternative is to bring that register up to date. Does that very much improve the matter. It does to a certain extent, but, still, it leaves off practically the soldiers and sailors, and a great and enormous crowd of munitions workers would be left off. I will not say that would be quite as bad as what I described in connection with the old register, but it will be very little better. Would anybody accept that as an alternative, and say that a Parliament elected on the old register brought up to date would be a Parliament which would command the confidence of the country and would be a Parliament of the people? I myself believe that there might be real and serious dangers if a Parliament elected under such circumstances sought to solve all these enormous problems. What is the third alternative? The third alternative is one recommended by several speakers who, in effect, ask, "Why do you not bring in a new and special ad hoc register, and put upon it all the soldiers and sailors, and all members of His Majesty's Forces who have fought for us? For," they say, "the man who is good enough to fight for me is good enough to vote for me!" Yes, Sir, I have heard that very often. Hon. Members say, "If you only do that, you would bring in an agreed Bill which will pass through this House almost in a sitting." Is that the real view of the House? Does not that at once open up the whole question of the franchise? Do not we get away immediately from registration to the question of the franchise? Some hon. Members say, "All soldiers and sailors: the man who is good enough to fight for me is good enough to vote for me!'" Do hon. Members propose in this connection any age limit? Would they limit the age to twenty-one? Do they mean to include all who fight, of whatever age? Would they have included the splendid and magnificent Cornwall and the gallant midshipman Gyles? Have these all to be put on the register—these young fellows of fourteen or fifteen, these magnicent fighters? Does it follow that because they are magnificent fighters that, at that early age, without instruction, without knowledge of the locality, without knowledge of the questions on which they voted, they would be the proper people to exercise the franchise? But, whether these things be so or not, the suggestion is that of a new franchise. Then, would you go to the women and say, "Oh, what we have done is not to alter the franchise; we have only altered the qualification for the franchise"? The women, I think, would turn round and say, "We do not care about your quibbling over franchise or registration, what you have done is to place three or four million men on the register, and you have not placed there a single woman." Does the House really seriously think that the women are quietly going to submit to that?
Why not?
My hon. Friend asks, "Why not?" Does it count for nothing, after all, that the ex-Prime Minister, once an opponent of woman suffrage, has now harnessed himself to the chariot of the present Prime Minister to take the ladies to the poll? Is it nothing, after all, that the first Leader of the Labour party who has ever obtained Cabinet rank, and War Cabinet rank, is such a champion of the ladies' cause? What about the Chancellor of the Exchequer? What about the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, whose charm we know, and which is now being discovered in a new country? Is it nothing to the ladies that all of these are champions of the ladies' cause? Do not the ladies read our Debates? Will they not read to-day of recantation after recantation; of one Member after another getting up and intimating that he has changed his mind, that whereas he was opposed to woman suffrage he has now thrown in his lot with the women and thinks they ought to be given the franchise. Has there been one recantation on the other side? Does the House really seriously think that if the Government brings in a Bill to put soldiers and sailors on the register, whether twenty-one or not, even if it is possible to frame a Bill to which no Amendment to graft upon it the question of woman suffrage is possible, do hon. Members think that such a Bill would have a quiet and easy passage through this House? Do they think that the women would be as quiet, and as well-ordered, or would do quite such good work as they have done? I do not know. We all have the same opportunity for estimating what will happen in the House of Commons should such a measure be introduced. But for my part, as an old Whip, I should be very sorry to whip on that day. I feel that that is an impossible alternative. I know that my right hon. Friend thinks that it is not a possible alternative. If it is an impossible alternative what is the only other possible way? Let me say, before I pass from that that I was one of those who did everything that he could in conjunction with his advisers to bring in a Bill of that kind. That Bill was brought in. I refer to the Special Register Bill. We invented the most remarkable clauses by which the soldiers and sailors should be put upon the register. What was the fate of that Bill? It was withdrawn. Listen to what the late Prime Minister (Mr. Asquith) said, speaking on 16th August, 1916:
"I know the Bill is illogical. You can riddle every clause with criticism and objections. I do not defend it in the least as anything more than a stop-gap to meet an emergency, . … It is put forward not as a logical or a complete scheme or as anything but a very halting, lopsided, and temporary makeshift which may or may not be seaworthy, and which I hope we shall never have occasion to use, but which is better than any substitute which exists or has been suggested."
That does not sound very encouraging to my right hon. Friend. I hope that the present Bill will escape the adverse criticism with which that measure was met. There are one or two questions to which I wish to give an answer. As to the objections to certain Clauses, all I want to say is that I think we had better wait till we come to the Clauses. Let me answer a question put by my right hon. Friend the late Home Secretary. He said, if a borough has a population of 50,000 and has a member, you do not take away the member merely because it has not 70,000? That is so. He also said if a county has a population of 50,000 and the unit is 70,000, yet if it has a member you do not take away the member for that county division. That also is quite right. Then the right hon. Gentleman inquired whether, if a county was divided into, say, three divisions, and one of those divisions had 50,000, but less than 70,000, will it under the Bill retain representation for that division? No, it will not. The county will be considered as a whole. It does not follow that the county would necessarily lose the three members. There might be some over-proportion of members in the other two divisions, and that county might still have three members. But in such a case a division which had a member and which had a population of more than 50,000 and less than 70,000 would have to have its boundaries altered. One other question was put by my hon. and gallant Friend. He was somewhat apprehensive as to what use an election agent might make of the Clause which says that a man who has got the qualification of six months' residence shall register in the borough or in the constituency in which he shall reside on the last night.
The point I put was as to removal from a contiguous constituency.
I think that is the case in the mind of my hon. and gallant Friend and also in the minds of one or two other hon. Members. I believe that what he was thinking of was this: An election agent might scent a by-election in a neighbouring constituency, apprehending that somebody was about to die, and that probably there would be an election in the month of February. Supposing it was in Lambeth, the election agent might move into that borough a hundred very active supporters from the neighbourhood of Westminster. I think that was what was in the mind of my hon. and gallant Friend. Now let us see whether my hon. and gallant Friend really brings off his great scheme by which, in a very closely contested constituency, he could move a hundred voters from Westminster to Lambeth. Anticipating an election in February, the qualification would have to be from the 15th July to the 15th January. Very well, on the 15th January he would move a hundred men into Lambeth.
The 14th of January.
Yes; the 14th of January. I will be a little more artistic, and say that he moved one hundred at the Christmas quarter into Lambeth, and there they finished their qualification, and were entitled to be registered in Lambeth as voters. My hon. and gallant Friend is anticipating an election in February, we will say. The man lingers on, and then dies, and the election takes place on the 1st April. "Now." says my hon. and gallant Friend, "I can use those voters. They have their qualification in Lambeth." My hon. and gallant Friend would be disillusioned, I can assure him, because those men could not possibly vote until they got on the register on the 15th April, because the register for those who qualified by the 15th January would not be made up until the 15th April. I do not say it would never be possible under any circumstances. If you could possibly scent a by-election, say, three or four months ahead, you might possibly be able to do it, but it is not a real danger under a six months' qualification. It would be a real possibility under a three months' qualification and a continuous register. I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that if he lives to the age of Methuselah he will not bring it off once.
With regard to women and proportional representation, do not let the House be alarmed. I am really going to say very little indeed, and for this reason solely. No Government pressure is to be put upon anybody to vote as regards the inclusion or exclusion of women, or as regards proportional representation, and no pressure being put on, I think I should be exceeding my duty as one of those in charge of this measure if I were to do more than, at all events in a most general way, express my own opinion. So far as women voters are concerned, I have always followed Mr. Disraeli, and so far as proportional representation is concerned, I have always followed Mr. Gladstone.
Are women to have the vote in Ireland?
I do not know why they should be excluded. The time will come when we all may be able to express our opinions freely both on women's suffrage and proportional representation. But, so far as the Government are concerned, those are not matters of which the Government take charge, and I do not think I would be doing right before the Second Reading of this Bill to put pressure, even of the most remote kind on anybody by expressing preference for either one or the other of these particular measures. Therefore, I will sum up by saying that we have now long and anxiously sought some remedy for our present electoral system, for the whole House will agree that we could not, on the old register, ask the country to elect a new Parliament for the purposes of reconstruction after the War. The present is a rare opportunity, an opportunity that will never probably occur again, when party passions only feebly and faintly flicker throughout our proceedings, and when one and all of us are agreed on the main projects and the cardinal principles of the Bill before the House. I invite the House to seize this opportunity, and to join one and all in trying to settle these great questions, to clear these questions of machinery out of the way, so that the future House of Commons can give its energies to settling the great social problems. Let us be resolved that, "o'er ever the silver thread of concord be snapped, or the golden bowl of harmony be broken," we shall join together in bringing about what, I believe, will be to the enormous credit of this House, so that when its history comes to be written, whatever may be thought of our conduct of the War, history will say that this House of Commons was a great House of Commons, that it put aside its party passions and prejudices, and joined together in bringing about the greatest Reform Bill, under which the whole fabric of the franchise was put upon a simple and intelligible and a popular and equitabe basis.
My right hon. Friend who has just sat down dealt with the question raised by my hon. and gallant Friend with regard to the possibility of a clever election agent transferring votes from Lambeth to Westminster. He dealt with that question in a very clever way, and he dealt with it as if it only affected a by-election, but I may point out that there are very many greater possibilities. There can be no doubt—and I think my right hon. Friend admitted it—that any person who is resident in any part of London, and who has been resident in any part of London, can move from that particular part—I will take for the sake of argument the illustration I used in an interruption yesterday—move from Dulwich to Tower Hamlets, and get upon the register in Tower Hamlets on the last day. He would not be on the register until 15th April—that is, three months afterwards, if you make the periods July and January. A Parliament has been in existence, say, for four and a half or four years. It is perfectly well known that that Parliament must come to an end before the conclusion of the quinquennial period. It would be quite open for an astute agent in many parts of London to move electors from one place to another—I will deal for the moment only with lodgers—at a time when, if a General Election came after the three months, those people would be able to decide the election in that constituency, and I challenge any hon. Member or any lawyer to deny that that which I have said is absolutely correct. I had a little conversation with the learned Solicitor-General last night. I had no wish in any kind of way to be discourteous to him, because he is one of the Members of the House for whom I have the greatest admiration. His method of speech is so clear and lucid, and he is always so extremely courteous, that I should be the last person to interrupt him. I had a little conversation, as I say, and he admitted that what I said was correct, and he said that residence must really be an effective residence, and that the Courts would hold that merely going there for a short time would not be effective residence. I asked how could the Court hold that a man who for three or four years has been a lodger in one part of London and goes to lodge in another part is not making a genuine and effective change of residence, and he admitted it would be extremely difficult to prove. There can be no doubt that is one of the reasons why—although I do not want to introduce party matters—the agents of one particular party, ever since I have been a London Member, now five and twenty years, have been so anxious to make London one Parliamentary borough, because they hope to be able to do something as foreshadowed by my hon. and gallant Friend. And really the Clause in the Bill goes further, because it introduces contiguous constituencies outside London. I do not know how that would be interpreted, but that is the effect of the Bill.
I agree with my right hon. Friend who has just sat down in one or two of the statements that he made. He said this was the most comprehensive measure of reform that had ever been introduced into Parliament, and my right hon. Friend (Mr. H. Samuel) alluded to the singular state of the House when he was speaking—[Hon. MEMBERS "Oh!"]—or rather during the whole of the Debate—and he also stated that there were no articles and no excitement in the Press on this question. I think that is quite true, but I do not agree with the conclusions which he drew from that statement. His conclusions were that everyone was so much in favour of this Bill that he took no further interest in it. The conclusions I draw are that all are so interested in the War and more important measures that they do not take any interest in this particular measure, that they—do not know what it contains, that they do not know what the result would be, and that the Press, with the possible exception of the "Morning Post," do not find it advisable to take a hostile attitude to the Government of the day. That this is the most comprehensive measure of reform that has ever been introduced cannot be denied. It is going to increase the male voters from 8,000,000 to something like 10,500,000, and it is going to add 6,000,000 women to the register—that is to say, it is going to double the present electorate. That surely is a change which should be carefully considered by the country and by the Government. Now it is quite impossible at the present moment that either the Government or the country or this House can give a sufficient and proper attention to this measure when the country's interests are, as they are now, concentrated in the War. Only on the 3rd of February, 1915, the late Prime Minister (Mr. Asquith said: country—in deciding questions of that vast magnitude when we ought to be deciding the questions of the War, and only the questions of the War?
Let me deal for a moment with what may very likely be one of the results if this Bill goes through. I am told that my right hon. Friend said that a large number of people have changed their opinions on women's suffrage, but that he did not think anyone had changed their opinion in the other way. Very well. It is also stated that women have done so well in the War that many people have changed their opinion. Who expected women not to do well in the War? Who expected that they would not do well in the War? What is the character of woman? Sir Walter Scott knew the character of woman. He said this:
The Speaker's Conference, I think, wavered between the ages of thirty and thirty-five. I see my right hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith (Sir W. Bull) sitting opposite, over there, and he was a prominent member of the Speaker's Con- ference. I do not want him to disclose any confidence, but I think they wavered between the ages of thirty and thirty-five. I do not know what there was or is in those particular ages. I do not know whether he favoured thirty-five or thirty. My right hon. Friend the Member for Oxford University (Lord H. Cecil) asked yesterday what happens to a woman at thirty which will qualify her for having a vote which will not entitle her to one when she is twenty-nine years and 364 days old. I do not know. It is a riddle which I give up. I venture to say everybody in this House will have to give that up, and that when you come to whether or not you shall grant the franchise to men of twenty-one and women of twenty-one, you will have to decide that you must grant it to women of twenty-one. If you admit that there is no sex disqualification between men and women, you cannot say that a woman is not entitled to a vote on the same terms as a man. That is absolutely impossible. A woman's suffrage paper was sent me the other day—I forget the name—in which it was said that of course the women would not be content with being put upon the register and having the vote given them at the age of thirty, and the result would be that there would be an agitation. My right hon. Friend has advocated the passing of this measure on the ground that it would destroy and stop agitation, but I say that unless you admit all the women it will not. There will be at once a demand from the remainder of the women to be admitted to the franchise, and, as this paper said, it will be a demand backed up by the 6,000,000 of women whom you have already admitted to the franchise. What will be the result if this be carried? The result will be this: The present electorate is at present, in round figures, about 8,000,000. Men will be increased to about 10,500,000, in round figures. If you give the franchise to women of twenty-one on the same conditions and terms as are in the Bill you will add 12,000,000 electors to the register. The electorate will consist of just over 22,000,000 people, 10,000,000 of whom will be men and 12,000,000 women, so that the women will have the majority in the Government of the country. That may be right or it may be wrong, but really, does anyone mean to say that this House is going to consider in this present time, in the greatest crisis we have ever gone through in our history, a far-reaching question of domestic policy of that sort, instead of devoting its whole attention to the carrying on of the War.
I should like to deal for a very short time with one or two questions referring to matters in the Bill. The population basis is to be the population basis of 1914, but there has been a tremendous change since then. The population basis of 1914 is by no means identical with the basis of the present time. Therefore, at once, you start with an initial difficulty. Then, when you come to redistribution I want to, know why, in Heaven's name, Ireland is to have all the advantages, if they are advantages, of this increased vote while she is not to be touched with regard to redistribution? I cannot conceive how such a proposition can be put forward. What was always stated—I am not at all sure that I held the view—by a very large number of Members on both sides? That the representation of Ireland was too great and that it ought to be reduced. There were a large number of people in the country and in this House who blamed the last Conservative administration for not having done that. I am not sure that I always held that view. I have no objection, if I may say so, to the presence of Irishmen in the House, but if now you are going to alter the distribution in England, then certainly you must alter the distribution in Ireland.
What about the Act of Union?
8.0 P.M.
That is another reason why the hon. Gentleman should vote against the Second Reading of the Bill, if he thinks that owing to the Act of Union a logical method of distribution cannot be conceived. I cannot, therefore, have the hon. Member in the Division Lobby with me, but he and I have voted together lately more than once and I hope we shall do so again. That, to my mind, is a matter of very great importance and is one which I am quite certain the country will be very anxious about, and regarding which they will be very disappointed if they think that the over-representation in Ireland is to be continued while the representation in England is to be altered. Then I want to ask another question. I think I am right in saying that always when there has been a Reform Bill it has been followed by a dissolution. I think that has been so always. Are we going to have a Dissolution? Is the result of this measure to be that the time of the House—the time of the Cabinet it ought to be—and the time of the country, is to be taken up in considering what they are going to do, and that after that we are going to have a dissolution at once? If that is so, what becomes of the War? If we are not going to have a dissolution we depart from all constitutional practice, and this House having altered the basis on which it was returned cannot be said in any kind of way, because that was the reason of the dissolution to represent the country. This House has already prolonged its own life, and solely because it was desired to continue the War and not to have a Dissolution. Now having prolonged its own life, it brings in a measure which, if passed, necessitates a Dissolution. With regard to proportional representation, I am in the same position as the Prime Minister. I do not understand it. If it is going to give representation to minorities, I am in favour of it; if it is not, I am not in favour of it. I really do not know whether it is or whether it is not, but I would remind the House of this: Not proportional representation, but something very near it, has been tried before. In the Reform Act of, I think, 1867, Mr. Disraeli introduced a rather complicated measure, whereby if a constituency had four representatives, as the City of London had then, you could only vote for three, and that was supposed to give a minority representation. In the City of London it did for a considerable time give a minority representation to the Conservatives. In those days the City was hot so enlightened as it is now, and it returned Liberals, but the party agents were so cute that they very soon found a way of getting over this. I believe they started in Birmingham, but at any rate they did not in the City of London, and in 1874, with that provision in existence, four Conservatives were returned for the City of London, done by the simple way of sending round to the people and asking for whom they voted. It will be more difficult under proportional representation, but I do not think it will be impossible.
Yes, impossible!
I will not argue with the hon. Gentleman, who has given a great deal of time and thought to the matter while I have not, but I understand it did, and I think there may be a difficulty, when you have a number of candidates, in having to put 1, 2, 3 or 4 against their names. I do not know that I should do it right myself, and I think the electors will put 1 and 2 and not think of anything else. In the Reform Bill of 1884 there was considerable dispute with the Lords upon the question of, redistribution, and the Bill was withdrawn or withheld until the Redistribution Bill was before the House. What I want to know now is, are we going to have a Redistribution Bill before the House or is it to be left to the Boundary Commission? Because it is absolutely necessary that Parliament should see exactly how the country is divided and should have the opportunity of expressing its opinion upon that in the Bill. I am certain that my recollection of this is right. I have looked it up, and I find that I am right and that what was done in 1884 was as I have stated. This is a greater revolution, and I feel that some course of the same sort ought to be followed. I thank the House for having listened to me, and I am sorry that I have detained them so long. I should like to say, in conclusion, that I am only actuated by a sincere desire to do what I think is right in this matter. I do not think it is advisable to plunge into an enormous revolution of this sort at the present moment. What that revolution, if it is carried, will result in, I do not know, and I do not believe anyone else knows. I think it is a matter which requires careful consideration, and I feel that at the present moment that careful consideration cannot be given.
The right hon. Baronet who has just sat down usually brings such forcible arguments against any Bill he is opposing that those who are in favour of it listen to him with something akin to dread, but, on the present occasion, it seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman has not come up to his standard, and I do not appreciate very well what his strong reasons are for voting against this Bill. I can quite understand the opposition which is raised on the ground that it is a measure which ought not to be brought forward during the course of the War. That is a very reasonable proposition to put forward, but I think the reply is in the question: What are you going to do after the War? The right hon. Baronet has asked if we are going to have a Dissolution. It is quite right to urge that after such a reform you ought to have a Dissolution, and it is precisely because we are faced with the fact that there must be a Dissolution of Parliament within a measurable distance from now that we are obliged to make preparation for it. What is the position of those who would not make preparations for it now? Immediately after the War we shall have to set to work to bring in a Bill of this kind, and in order to make it effective we shall have to wait six months, because it would take six months to carry through the Bill and the process of registration. You would be asking this Parliament to go on six months after the War because during the War you had not thought it right to make preparations to enable a decision to be come to. I think it is the wisest thing to make all the preparations in order that you may have an election, not during the War, for I believe such a thing would be unthinkable, but immediately after the War. You will then have an Act and a register ready for the country to record its votes. I have never been perfectly certain in my own mind why the right hon. Gentleman retired from the Conference. We sat together for a long time and we got on in a very amicable way. I believe the right hon. Gentleman himself was a party to a great many unanimous resolutions. I do not know that I shall be misjudging him if I tell him that my suspicion has been this—that he thought if he stayed with us he would find that we were willing to give up so much on our side, that if he had continued to the end he would have found himself logically compelled to agree on a majority of questions, and to join in a unanimous decision. The whole process of the Conference, even during the time my right hon. Friend was there, was one in which we tried to arrive at a conclusion. That is the reason why we got this remarkable degree of unanimity. We had, above all, Mr. Speaker's constant anxiety to clear away obstacles and make it possible to came to an agreement, and we also had a very distinct idea among ourselves that we are bound, in loyalty to the House and to the country, to come to some agreement.
It has been suggested in the Debate that we ought not to have brought in such a big measure, that it would have been quite sufficient if we had proposed something which would have remedied the injustice which undoubtedly soldiers and sailors and munition workers and others would suffer if an election took place on the present register. But the moment you come to grips with that problem you find that you have to go a great deal further, because it would not do to put soldiers and sailors only on to the register. You have to make a register to meet the extraordinary conditions that have arisen during the War. If we form a new register on the old law I venture to say that thousands of people still in the country, not soldiers or sailors, but thousands of people who have moved about for one reason or another under the conditions caused by the War, could not possibly have qualified under the existing law. That being so, you would have to, change the law, and the first change was to find a qualification so short as to enable those people who have moved during the War to be placed on the register. Therefore it came to this, that you could not prepare the nation for an election unless you reformed the law and the franchise. Therefore we had to set to work to alter the law. We have done so and we have brought up proposals which I believe command the general assent of the country. I believe they command the assent of the House of Commons; in fact, the Noble Lord who spoke so strongly against them yesterday said, as I understood him, that if it were February and not May he would not say that he would not vote for the Second Reading. And that is the attitude, I believe, of a very great many people in this House, and also in the country, that the Bill has something which has a great deal of good in it and it is one which ought to go through. I had a very good instance of that in my Constituency. Shortly after the report of the Conference was issued the Unionist Association in my Constituency met, and, I think, spent a couple of days giving the most careful consideration to the proposals. They took the trouble, and I may add the courtesy, to write to me upon it, and in their comments there is no, objection to the principle. They went into details and suggested certain amendments, some of which I hope may be made in this Bill, but on the general principle the association was not against it. I believe that is the position of most of the political associations throughout the country.
I think the word "compromise" which we have heard so much of is not quite the right word to use. What we tried to do was to find the greatest common measure of agreement, and it was only after we had exchanged views day after day under the speaker's guidance that we came to our resolutions. We were then in a position to ascertain what each other's opinions were and to find out what was the greatest common measure of agreement. But of course in doing that we had to abandon a great deal of our own pet schemes. I had a pet scheme, and I presented it in some detail to the Chairman of the Conference. I see very little of that scheme in these proposals, because almost everything I suggested had to be cut down in one way or another, and if there is any idea abroad that the proposals of this Conference embodied in the Bill are such that the party to which I belong have welcomed them with acclamation, no greater mistake could be made. On the contrary, I have had to stand a good deal of very serious criticism directed against them. In fact, there are persons who say, and to a certain extent they are justified in saying, that we who have been flying the flag of democracy and saying "One man one vote" all over the country and "Every man a vote," have been really traitors to our cause. We have had some difficulty in justifying our position, because what is the creed that we held? I hold myself that the vote is the right of every individual. I know quite well that that opinion is not held by a great many other people, but I am convinced that real democracy cannot be established on a proper basis unless you recognise the principle that a vote is not a privilege that we choose to give to this man or to that man, but is a right which he is entitled to claim, as much as the right to individual liberty. If you accept that condition, I say you cannot pick and choose. Not only is it difficult to pick and choose, as has been pointed out during the Debate by two or three speakers, but I go further, and say that you have no right to try to pick and choose. I hold that you are bound in justice to give to every man—and I say, too, to every woman—the right to take an equal share in the life of the country. I know that that is not the view of everybody, but still for those who, like myself, hold that view, it is pretty clear we have not got anything we can call a victory, or anything like a victory. What have we got? We have here in this country 26,000,000 people who, in our opinion, are entitled to a vote. Every one has an equal right to vote. What are we giving them? Out of 12,000,000 men, every one of whom, in our opinion, ought to have a vote, there will be only about 10,000,000 who will have that right; and out of another 14,000,000 there will be about 6,000,000. So that out of 26,000,000 who, theoretically, we think ought to have the vote, there will be only 16,000,000. Well, I say that cannot be called a victory on our part. It is a great gain, and it is a great step forward towards the goal we hope to reach, but no one can say we have scored a victory.
With regard to the qualification, our case has always been that men who are entitled to the vote have not been able to get on to the lists until after a very long period of waiting, and, indeed, are very often left off the register because they have moved their residence, and probably cannot get on again for another two years. That could only be remedied in one way, by shortening the qualification very considerably, and our proposal has always been to enact that the qualification should be three months. If we could get a qualification like that it would have the advantage of simplicity, and would practically work itself. We could not obtain that, and, instead, it was agreed that it should be a six months' qualification. When that is once admitted, we had also to try and provide a system whereby the men who lose their votes should not lose them for such a long period as under the present system. Consequently, we suggested what has been accepted, namely, the extension of the system known at present as successive occupation, which means that where in a particular borough a person has been residing, and moves to another division, the two residences in the same borough shall count for the qualification. That holds good at present in cities like Liverpool, and the East End of London, and, in fact, in all boroughs divided up into different divisions. That is a provision in the law which exists now, but we propose to extend it, and indeed one of the Unionist Members recommended that the system of successive occupation should hold good all over the country; that is to say, that when once a man has got a vote he should not lose it simply because he moves his residence, and that he should be able to carry his vote with him, and the two qualifications should count together. In that way we arrive at the present proposal, that if a man moves anywhere in the same neighbourhood he should retain his vote. By that means we are able to safeguard a great number of persons who are entitled to the vote, but who, nevertheless, would have lost their vote under the new system if we had not made this particular provision.
Then there is the question of the duplicate vote. Our view throughout was that no man should have any greater electoral power than another. If you take the other view, you are again met with the question, what criterion are you going to set up to justify more than one vote for one man as against another. On this particular subject we have already established our principle, because the Plural Voting Bill has been passed through this House. On this question, as upon all others, there are, of course, different views and opinions to which one has to give respectful attention. It was pointed out that under the scheme we are proposing we should be adding at least 2,000,000 new male voters to the electorate, and a good many women voters. Most of those persons who will receive the new franchise will be persons who are in the humbler classes of society. In doing this we may submerge two very important interests, namely, the interests of trade and of education. I can quite appreciate, as I think we all do, the strong claim that the trade of this country has to obtain a little more power than they otherwise would have as compared with the great mass of voters, and so these two methods of giving additional power to those interests were agreed to. There again this had to be done upon a reformed basis. At the present time there are men who have sixteen, seventeen and eighteen votes in different constituencies at a General Election. On this point we agreed to a proposition that no man should have more than two votes, and that the second vote should only be exercised in respect of business premises, so that it should be a vote given to those persons who are really carrying on the trade of the country.
When you come to the consideration of giving some more representation to education, we were enabled to do that by altering the system of the university vote. The present system restricts representation vary much. As hon. Members know, the university franchise is only held by the men who have kept their names on the books, and have taken their M.A. degree. We propose to democratise the university vote by giving to all men who have at any time taken any degree the right to vote. In addition to that we propose to bring in some of the newer universities upon the same basis, and institute a system whereby the minority will be sure to get representation as well as the majority. There is one question on this point which I hope the right hon. Gentleman will answer. I do not see any provision in the Bill for the franchise being given to the new universities, although I feel certain, in view of the very able way in which the Bill has been drafted, that this cannot have been an oversight. I do not see how representation can be given to the new universities unless it is provided for in the Bill. It may be that this representation is to be given under the Redistribution Clauses, but I should like the right hon. Gentleman to say something upon that point. The only universities that have any representation at the present time are Oxford and Cambridge, the London University, two Scottish Universities, and the Irish University.
There are also two other points upon which I should like the right hon. Gentleman to give some answer before we pass the Second Reading. One of them arises with regard to the local government elector. The Clause dealing with this class of elector contains rather more than the words agreed upon by the Conference, and the Home Secretary, in referring to this point, said they represented what he thought was the meaning of the Conference. The local government franchise is to be given to anyone who has occupied as owner or tenant (but not as a lodger) any land or premises in the areas. If those words are left in, "Not as a lodger," they will exclude all those who are at present on the lodgers' list. There were 444,000 of these on the register for 1914, and it deserves very serious consideration whether it is right to deprive so large a number of persons of the vote which they have at the present moment. These persons on the lodgers' lists of the Parliamentary register have the local government vote in every part of the United Kingdom. They have not got the full vote, but they have some vote. They vote for the parish councils, for the boards of guardians, and for the district councils all over the country. In London they vote for the county councils, and all over Scotland and Ireland they also vote for both county and borough councils. This Clause proposes to disfranchise nearly half a million persons who at present have the local government vote. I am not perfectly certain how the Bill affects Ireland. I have not been able quite to ascertain what the Bill does in regard to Ireland, but I am pretty certain, if these words are left in, that both in London and all over Scotland these persons will be deprived of the right which they have at present to vote in local government elections. In London it is a considerable problem, because the number is 108,000. The Home Secretary said that he read the Report of the Conference as meaning that the lodgers were to be excluded. I venture to say that is a misunderstanding, and I feel certain, after the way in which the Debate was opened and the way in which the right hon. Gentleman spoke just now that the Government will be quite prepared to consider any Amendments that are put forward on this Clause, as, indeed, on any others.
When we had to consider the question of the reform of the local government franchise we were, of course, met with the difficulty that in those places where the local government franchise had been given to the Parliamentary voter, qua Parliamentary voter, the alteration of the Parliamentary franchise would materially alter the local government register. The thing has arisen in this way: In 1894, when the Local Government Act was passed, it was decided that all persons who had a right to vote for Parliament should be placed on the parochial register, and since then the parochial register has been applied to all elections in London, Scotland, and Ireland. When we altered the basis of the Parliamentary franchise and settled it on a basis of residence and not of occupation, the question arose whether everybody who had got a vote simply because he was a resident should have a vote for local government purposes, and the Conference decided that was not to be the case, but it did not decide that the word "lodger" was to be retained. My right hon. Friend will know that the existence of that word in the Acts of Parliament has given rise to an enormous amount of litigation, because the Courts have had to define what is a lodger. I need not trouble the House with the details, but it will probably remember that in regard to persons who live in flats or on separate floors of artisan dwellings or private houses where the landlord happens to live on one floor and lets the other floors, it was decided, first of all, that each tenant of each floor was an occupier and had a right to be placed on the occupiers' list. That decision had the effect of placing no fewer than 100,000 more voters on the register of occupiers for London. Since then there have been other decisions which have turned many of these off, with the result that the occupiers' list has been again reduced, whereas the lodgers' register has been very largely increased.
It is very important indeed that we should put an end to that complication, and that we should decide exactly what persons shall have the right to the iocal government franchise. I hope that the Government will consider this question again and will consent to so define the words that there will be no risk of a man who occupies a floor in a house—an unfurnished dwelling—being treated as a lodger. That would go a considerable distance to rectify what I feed certain would be a great injustice if all these 440,000 persons found themselves struck off from the local government franchise. I should like also to refer to the soldiers' vote, about which we have heard a great deal in this Debate. The words passed by the Conference were drafted by myself, and I am quite ready to admit that the ideas which we had might be btter expressed in other words, but I feel sure that the Government, in drafting this Clause, have not really appreciated what we proposed, and the result has been to. complicate the question and to render it necessary to have considerable alterations in the Clause if we are to do what the Conference desired. The Conference put forward a very simple proposition, namely:
"During the continuance of a war in. which His Majesty is engaged and for a, period of twelve months after the termination thereof any person to whom this Section applies shall be entitled to be registered as a Parliamentary elector for any constituency for which he would have had the necessary qualification but for the War."
The proposal of the Conference had no reference to the War, and it is very important to realise that fact. We proposed that under any circumstances the soldier and the sailor should have the right to vote because he is a soldier or a sailor. It was my desire that this should be so, because my feeling is that every man should have a right to vote because he is an individual, but we agreed that the soldier or sailor should have the right because he is a soldier or a sailor. It has nothing to do with this War. It is because the Government have thought it necessary to restrict this provision to times of war that I think they have got into these difficulties. They have had to abandon the simple proposition that the man is to be registered in the constituency in which he ordinarily resides, and have had to say he is to be registered in the constituency for which he would have had the necessary qualification but for the War. I know that the right hon. Gentleman has said that he is going to consider carefully Amendments to this Clause, and I hope he will realise the importance of carrying out what was our proposal, namely, that every soldier or sailor should have the vote in war-time or in peace time, simply because he is a soldier or sailor. The reason for this is that soldiers move about a great deal. They seldom get the vote, and what we wanted to give them is the right to have their vote whether they are abroad or in England or anywhere. If they choose to be registered as voters in the places where they have their homes they are to be so registered. It is especially necessary with regard to sailors. Sailors are always away. They seldom can get any vote at all. We want to give the sailors in peace time the right, because they are sailors, to have a vote and each one to have the vote in the constituency in which his ordinary home is. Some people will find it difficult to define that, but the great mass of people will have no difficulty in saying where they have to be registered. If that can be done, it simplifies the whole thing greatly and puts the proposal on the right basis. You should adopt something very much more closely akin to the words which are put in the Report and which were carefully thought out in concert with an expert on registration. Then all that will have to be done is that, at the registration, the registration officer will make a canvass and find out who ordinarily lives in his particular area and who is a soldier or sailor. This is perfectly simple in the great majority of places. At the present time there is hardly a village in the country where you could not find out any day the name of every person who is a soldier or a sailor. It is possible even in London, because we have tried the experiment in crowded places. We find it is not at all difficult to go through the streets and find that So-and-so lives there and is at the front. The names of these men are better known now than those of anybody else. Therefore if you can alter the Clause to that extent, you will have arrived at a satisfactory arrangement. It would be a great thing to let it be said in future that, as a memory of this War, every soldier and sailor, when he becomes a soldier or sailor, gets the vote. Why should we not say so at once? I hope that will be done. I feel certain that is what the Conference wished to do, and I hope the Government will accept an Amendment making the point positively clear.
There is one other point on this Clause. I do not know why the Government have put in the restriction that the soldier or sailor is only to be enfranchised if he is abroad. I confess I cannot understand why that restriction is put in. It will be impossible to construe it. When is a soldier to say that he is abroad? Is it to be on the particular day of the registration or during the whole period? I think these words are a great mistake, and were put in simply because the draftsman had it in mind that he was to provide for this War only. The necessity of making a claim was not satisfactorily dealt with by the Solicitor-General last night. If you study the Bill carefully, you will see that the soldiers and sailors may put in that claim. But I feel certain that unless we make it a very definite duty of the registration officers to do this work we shall not find it done properly. They will leave it, because they know that the man has a right to claim. We want to make it absolutely impossible for any registration officer to neglect his duty to find out who these men are and put them on the register. Although I do not want to discuss this question at the moment, there is the one remaining point—how are they going to vote? The proposals that we made, I believe, are practicable and better than any suggestion that they should vote by proxy. The House could very well enlarge these proposals. There ought to be some temporary arrangement for the War. There ought to be an arrangement whereby the soldier or sailor, who is found to be absent, is automatically put on the absent list. That would be a very simple thing to arrange. There must be some special arrangement about dates. In all probability, if the soldiers have to vote as absent voters during this War, there ought to be a longer period than would be provided for in the ordinary course in times of peace. Subject to these observations, I think, these two proposals will be found not only to make it possible for soldiers and sailors to be put on the list, but also for them to vote, even when they are away.
I have said nothing about woman suffrage, and I do not want to this evening, because that is one of the questions we had much better leave until we get to the Clause, but I do not like to sit down without expressing my thanks and the thanks of all those who have been interested in this question for years to the Government for their having given us, at any rate, all that we ask for, a fair chance of testing the opinion of the House of Commons. I am not at all hopeless about what the result of that chance will be. We have been for many years, I will not say jockeyed, but disappointed by the various difficulties in this House, but on this occasion we shall have undoubtedly an opportunity of testing the feeling of the House. Therefore, I feel very grateful to the Government for having put the Clause into the Bill and freed us from all difficulties of procedure or of points of Order. When the time comes to raise the matter on the particular Clause, I hope the House will at last put an end to what has been, in my opinion, a crying injustice, namely, the total denial to woman of Parliamentary power in this country.
I am sure the House has listened to the speech of my right hon. Friend (Mr. Dickinson) with much attention, because there are few men who speak with greater weight on this question than he. I rise as a hearty supporter of the measure. I have been in the House for a great number of years and I have always dreaded the introduction into this House, in any circumstances, of any Bill of complexity or involving questions upon which there was any great or acute difference of opinion. The first thing to note in regard to the history of this measure is the way in which it has been introduced. Under existing circumstances, in the middle of a great War like this, it is absolutely impossible to pass through this House a measure of this kind without some preliminary conference and consideration. I will go a step further and say I look upon Mr. Speaker's Conference not only as a precedent for war-time, but as a precedent also for peace-time. How many years have been lost in carrying great reforms in the past simply because of political controversies within the walls of this House of Commons? I feel that the way in which the Bill has been brought to the notice of the House of Commons is full of promise for the immediate future. We cannot agree upon every point of detail in the Bill, but, speaking for myself, I believe it is imperative for this Bill to be passed, and passed now. Anyone who will consider for a moment what the situation will be after peace comes must understand that upon every ground it is most necessary to deal with this question of the franchise before the conclusion of the War.
Upon the governing principles of the Bill, the enlargement and simplification of the franchise, the payment of returning officers' charges, the holding of elections upon one day, and special facilities for soldiers and sailors to vote, I am in full and absolute concurrence. I also agree with my right hon. Friend (Mr. Dickinson) that some alteration is required in Clause 5 with reference to the form of that Clause governing the position of our soldiers and sailors at present and in the future. I think we shall all agree upon one point, that is the standpoint from which we should regard this measure. The Bill affects most of us in a very decisive way in our constituencies, but I think the House of Commons will be prepared to believe that we shall, as Members of this House, regard the Bill from the standpoint of the interests of the nation. I would emphasise the importance of remembering the difference which will undoubtedly be made by the passing of this measure in relation to the weight of power in this House of the agricultural constituencies of the country. I do not express this opinion as a Member for an agricultural seat, although I happen to be one. I was very glad to hear my right hon. Friend say he felt fairly confident that, although by this measure there will be a further shifting of the political power of the country to the urban population they would remember the prime importance of fully considering the interests of the agricultural areas in the country.
There are one or two things I wish to say in regard to Wales in relation to this measure. A day or two ago I asked the Home Secretary whether, having regard to the fact that two Commissioners had been appointed by the Boundary Commission to deal with the question of redistribution in Scotland, we in the Welsh Principality would have representation upon the Boundary Commission. The Home Secretary replied that in the opinion of the Government, at that time at all events, it was not necessary to do so. The essential thing is that in dealing with Wales, in regard to this question in the matter of holding local inquiries and obtaining local information as to the real conditions of the case, someone with a full knowledge of those conditions ought to be associated with this Boundary Commission. I hope the Boundary Commissioners, in dealing with the case of the Principality, will be able to look upon it as a separate entity in regard to their recommendations under this Bill. Scotland and England will be treated as entities, and I think—and in this regard I am speaking not only for myself but for the Welsh Parliamentary representatives—we in Wales claim that the Boundary Commissioners should have regard to the fact that Wales should be considered a separate entity when they come to make their recommendations. I am indeed glad this Bill has been introduced, and I feel fairly confident that with goodwill and common sense it may be found possible to pass it, and if passed it will undoubtedly be of great benefit to our nation.
I stand here in order to say how emphatically I condemn the bringing forward of this Bill at this time. My reason is the one reason which the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Dickinson) declared might properly be urged, therefore with his licence I would seek to urge it now. I should like to say how much I appreciate the able and eloquent speech of my right hon. Friend (Mr. Hayes Fisher), and I am sure he will not think the worse of me for standing up here to say what I believe, though I may be a voice crying in the wilderness, that the Bill ought not to have been introduced. We have already overstayed our welcome. I regretfully say that this House never stood lower in the estimate of public opinion than it does at this moment. I am fresh from my Constituency, having been sent there by the accident of having to seek re-election by reason of quite a minor position, and I have given my electors an opportunity of testing it if they were so pleased. Now let me tell the House one of the reasons why it was not tested. It was because I put in my address, in short sharp sentences, that nothing mattered but the continuance of this War and its victorious prosecution and that nothing should divert me from that one supreme task. At the very moment that that address had been read by my opponents in my division I received offers to nominate me on that footing, and the very opponent that I defeated the last time I fought was generous enough to head a nomination paper and get it filled up, so that one was presented. I acknowledge that courtesy with gratitude at the first moment I am able to do so in this House, but the reason for it was that I had pledged myself to do nothing but advocate measures directly concerning the bringing of this War to a conclusion. I am only three weeks a member after that election, and I think that ought to be considered very strong evidence of the feelings, so far as they are concerned, of the electorate. I want to refer to the condition of things within six days after the declaration of war. The then Prime Minister said, after referring to the anxiety which we all felt, that the House and the country must continue to speak and act strongly against the discussion of that Report as being one of the measures which was likely to provoke acute party controversy. Though he himself had set up the Commission, and though he was Prime Minister when the Bill was drafted that provided that the Commission should report at once to Parliament, he was so convinced that any discussion would be detrimental that in April last he implored the House not to proceed with it. Under these conditions how can it be said that because the Speaker's Conference has made a Report, because a certain number of Members of this House not elected by this House, not selected by this House, but assembled upon the invitation of Mr. Speaker, who undertook it, I understand, as was said yesterday, at the invitation of the present Colonial Secretary, that, after repeated failures in this House, both before and since the War, to deal with this question, we must deal with it now? What was the reason that the House refused to accept the Motion proposed by the late Home Secretary, which had the definite object of setting up a Committee nominated by both sides, consisting of men skilled in the matter, for the purpose of trying to see what kind of a franchise could be adopted after the withdrawal of the Special Register Bill? The House knows the reason. That was to be a Parliamentary Committee. This Conference is a purely voluntary attempt, brought together unofficially, without the sanction of the House having been obtained for it beforehand.
I am not going to enter into any details, although from long experience with the rank and file in these particular matters I could go into details if it were necessary to do so, but I deny myself that temptation. I proceed only to deal with the matter from one point of view, and that is set forth in the Motion which I have put down upon the Order Paper. In face of the pledges of the late Prime Minister, reinforced not once nor twice, but frequently from the Coalition Bench, both of the present Coalition and the preceding one, that nothing should take place and nothing should be done but the conduct of this War, and such measures as were absolutely necessary to that end, I am opposed to our proceeding with this Bill. I know from my own personal experience—and it was a very large one in various parts of the country in connection with the recruiting campaign that was taken up so vigorously—that between the outbreak of war in August, 1914, and the introduction of the Military Service Bill which came into operation on 2nd March, 1916, an enormous number of our men, and the best manhood of this country, left these shores and went on foreign service, or prepared to go on foreign service, and they went in the distinct belief and the distinct assurance, given again and again by responsible Ministers in this House, that nothing would be done while the War was on, except it was business for the proper conduct of the War.
9.0 P.M.
I submit that these are fundamental objections. This Report has been evolved, and the House is asked to accept it willynilly, because it is an attempt of a certain number of men in this House, of all parties, to come to an agreement. We are told by some members of the Conference who left it before it concluded its labours that it was not an agreement. We know that others left it, but we are told that and no more. I deplore from the bottom of my heart that this Bill should have been introduced, and I find it only consistent with my duty, holding the convictions I do, that it ought not to be proceeded with, to vote against it.
I desire to make some observations of a general character, to show why I am strongly in favour of this Bill. Unlike the hon. and learned Member who has just spoken, I consider the time is most opportune. I think this is a statesmanlike attempt to deal with the obvious necessities of the times. I go so far as to say that never in the history of this country was it more important that the Government of the country should be broad-based upon the people's will than in the times that are fast approaching. Problems are flocking in upon us, and they will flock upon us faster in the immediate future. Among the most important problems that we shall have to solve is the problem of the future status and power of this House. There have not been wanting in certain sections of the Press hints and suggestions that the glory of this House has departed, and that this House of Commons has seen its best days. It is suggested that this Empire is going to be governed by a kind of directorate, that the Prime Minister will develop into something like the American President, that he will visit this House only on very rare occasions to deliver important messages, and that the power to control this great Empire is destined to depart from this House and to pass to a number of superior young men, sitting at a round table in the Prime Minister's back garden. Perhaps I am taking too gloomy a view, and that nothing so dreadful as that will ever happen to this Empire; but, at the same time, one cannot shut one's eyes to the obvious fact that there are influences working against the power and the sovereignty of this House.
It is a very significant fact that while in Russia the people are able to enlarge their liberties, the only thing which is happening in this country is the multiplication of the number of what the Russians call chinovniks, or what we call under-secretaries. It is, I think, an undoubted fact that the Prime Minister, of whom no one is a greater admirer than I am, is master of the art of peaceful penetration, and by the number of lucrative employments and offices which he has created he has to a considerable extent undermined the independence of this House. I may be a little old-fashioned, but I thoroughly distrust and dislike these new-fashioned methods of government. I am old-fashioned enough to believe that the only guarantee for the security of this Empire and the happines of its people is that the Government of this country shall be closely watched and controlled by an independent House of Commons. The only way in which this House of Commons can be independent and have sufficient confidence to exercise control over the Government is that it should be thoroughly representative of the people and closely in touch with them. There may be, as is often prophesied, difficult times ahead of us in this country, but I cannot help feeling that if we are wise enough to throw open widely the gates of liberty, as the ex-Prime Minister said the other day, liberty will be justified of its children, and we may look forward to the future with confidence and hope.
That, I think, is specially true of the party to which I have the honour to belong. I cannot help feeling that if the leaders of that party have the wisdom to cultivate friendly relations with the great forces of democracy that party has a great and glorious future before it. One of the great virtues of Mr. Disraeli as a leader was that he diverted the attention of his followers to the first principles of his party. It may be that in the efflux of time the first principles of our party have been rather snowed under by new and contradictory principles, so that it would take a clever workman to find the pit whence those first principles were digged. But, after all, Mr. Disraeli is a fairly safe guide. I may remind hon. Friends and colleagues that he wrote in one of his novels that the object of the Conservative party should not be to multiply the number of peerages, baronetcies, and under-secretaryships, but to promote the welfare and happiness of the people, and that the best way of defending property was for property to realise that labour is its twin brother, and that the essence of all tenure is the performance of duty. Feeling as I do that the future of my party depends on a cordial alliance with the forces of democracy, and as for a great number of years I have been a humble and inconspicuous member of that party, I hope that I may without offence appeal to my hon. Friends who are opposing this Bill once they have registered their protest to refrain from anything like continual opposition. If they do not, they will do their party a great disservice and their action will be likely to be very much misinterpreted, and its only effect will be that they will delay the day when the party will enter into its rightful heritage.
What is true of the party I think also is true of the Government of the country. There are unquestionably new forces knocking at our door. I remember reading in one of Mr. Wells' articles a statement to the effect that Greater Britain is only now beginning to realise itself, that there is growing throughout the land a feeling by which people are beginning to realise newer and wider sympathies and possibilities of a community of aim which is utterly beyond the ideas of the old oligarchy. I do not quite indorse the latter part of Mr. Wells' statement, because it would mean that the only wisdom that was rising in this country resided outside the ranks of the governing classes. But there is no doubt about it that there are new forces at work, and I feel very strongly that, if we only have the wisdom to co-operate with these new forces, the Government, the public life, and the social life of this country will be what Wordsworth called "a pleasant exercise of hope and joy," and that we shall be able to exercise our skill, not in any impossible Utopia, but in this world which is the world of all of us—the place where, after all, we have our happiness or not at all.
Before sitting down I wish to say a word with regard to woman suffrage. As I have for a great number of years advocated the extension of suffrage to women, I do not feel that there is much force in the arguments which have weighed with a considerable number of Members in this House. I do not base the claims for women on the work which they have done during this War. I base the claims for women on higher grounds than that. It seems to me that the claims of women are as old as Christianity itself. If our religion has not taught us the equal value of men and women in the eyes of the Maker, then our religion has taught us very little indeed. If that is granted, then women have a right equally with men to co-operate in the framing of society so that it will express the image of a better time. Some hon. Members have a great objection to women having the vote because they have not fought in this War. That does not seem to me to be the point. The point is that we have made the fullest use of the wonderful self-sacrifice which women have shown in this War. There is nothing which we have not asked of them, and the question seems to me to be this—are we to treat women as drudges or as citizens? I feel very strongly that they have a right to be treated as citizens, and that is why I cordially welcome and give my support to these proposals in this Bill.
The present Government was appointed under quite exceptional conditions for one reason and one reason only—to bring the War to a successful conclusion. The Government has neither the time nor the authority to deal with the gigantic Franchise Bill in which is included the redistribution of seats. The late Prime Minister, on the 14th August last year, said in this House: is impossible even to pretend that it is an agreed Bill. The soldiers and sailors fighting abroad for our existence and liberty will not be consulted at all about this Bill. The only Clause in it by which it is pretended to give votes to sailors and soldiers is a fraud and a sham. [An HON. MEMBER "No!"] I think it is. I am sure it is. For practical purposes, not 10 per cent. of the soldiers and sailors will be able to vote. The great majority of the people want our soldiers and sailors, who have been abroad and have been fighting for us during these months and years, to have votes and to be able to use them as far as possible at the next election. A Bill for that purpose is the only Bill which the Government is entitled to pass during the War on this subject of the franchise. If this Bill is passed the conscientious objectors, the passive resisters, the pro-Germans, the peace cranks, and the diseased and decrepid will all of them have votes, and be able to use them, whilst the great majority of the men in the trenches will not be able to vote at all.
As I read the Bill, these are the facts as they are set forth in that measure. The Government have really more than enough to attend to without being involved in a great internal contest during the final struggle of our men in the most gigantic war that the world has ever known. The people of the country are intent upon getting rid of the submarine danger and winning the War, and they do not want the attention of the Government diverted from the War to a great question which ought to be settled, and settled deliberately, in peace-time. In addition to that, the reform of the House of Lords, which the late Prime Minister told us years ago was a subject which would not brook delay, ought to be proceeded with at the same time as any new Franchise Bill. As I understand it, a redistribution of seats ought not to take place until after the next census is taken. At present it is impossible to know what will be the migration of the population after the War, and if redistribution were left until then, we might also be able to deal with Ireland at the same time. [An HON. MEMBER: "Not at all."] We do not know what is going to happen about Ireland, and that country might then be in a position to have a redistribution of seats dealt with. I think that the Government should also consider whether, when the soldiers and sailors come forward, they are likely to stand being excluded from their fair share of the Government of the country, for whose sake they have of their own free will, at all events, the great majority of them, endured all the untold dangers of the submarines and of the War. Every soldier and sailor who has served on sea or land to save us from the horrors and slavery inflicted upon the inhabitants of Belgium and France, ought to have a vote, whatever his age. If he is good enough to fight for his country, certainly he is good enough to vote for it.
What about those who make munitions?
:I am speaking of soldiers and sailors serving abroad, and they do not make munitions abroad. I say that you must give the soldiers and sailors a vote. They have fought for you and endured all the dangers and privations and hardships of the War, and it is only fair that they should have the vote. [An HON. MEMBER "That is what we are doing."] That is exactly what you are not doing under the Bill. The right hon. Member for Paddington pointed that out. [An HON. MEMBER: "We are doing that."] I disagree with the hon Member entirely. [An HON. MEMBER: "Read the Bill."] I have read the Bill two or three times, and I have as much right to my own interpretation of it as the hon. Gentleman. I think I was, at all events, right about the War coming, a thing which so many scoffed at, and I am surely entitled to have my opinion upon this Bill. I trust that every Member who believes in patriotism and justice will vote for the Amendment, and against the Second Reading of the Bill.
On a Bill of such wide range it is difficult to say anything of much value in the space of a very few minutes. I intend to confine what I have to say to those few minutes, because I always believe that in Debates in this House it is far more desirable that many Members should speak briefly than that few Members should make long speeches. We have had the position of this Bill placed before us most admirably this evening by the right hon. Gentleman the ex-Home Secretary, and also by the right hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board. Both these right hon. Gentlemen have thrown out a challenge, and that challenge has not been answered. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board put it perfectly clearly to the House that this question has got to be faced. Time after time you have not faced it. Government after Government have tried to do it, but they have failed to face it. What has been asked is this: What is the alternative to the Bill now before the House? The question must be faced by some practical measure, and I think that with a Government which does not approach this measure in any way from the party sense, but represents all points of view in the House, it is the right time to try to pass this Bill. What is there proposed to put in its place? From the beginning to the end no alternative proposal has been made, and until we have got one, it seems that this Bill necessarily holds the field. It has been brought about under the most unique circumstances that any of us engaged in Parliamentary life for many years has ever seen. It has come to us through a Committee constituted of members of all parties in the House, and presided over, on a citizen matter, by the chief citizen of the country, the Speaker of the House of Commons, and that Committee, composed of such an aggregation, has produced a unanimous Report.
We are told that under these conditions it is absolutely inappropriate and unjustifiable, because of the War, for this House to approach this question. Why, Sir, it seems to me that the holding of that Committee, and the result of that Committee, provide an absolute answer to that contention. If the Speaker of the House of Commons, involved and preoccupied as he is, as much as any man in this country, in regard to questions of the War, found it possible to concentrate his thoughts for the time being on facing this problem, surely we are in a position to do so also with some practical results! What he did was not in spite of the War, but because of the War, and the results of that Committee have been brought about because of the War, and it is because of the War that I venture to urge most strenuously that we should seize this golden opportunity of getting rid once and for all, at any rate for the present generation, of this vexed question of the franchise. Some hon. Members have said that it is a breach of the party truce. It seems to me that it is the finest party truce we shall ever possibly have on this great question of the franchise. The Noble Lord, to whom it is always a pleasure to listen, but who always speaks in such a way that he leaves us in doubt as to what his real position is, began by stating that he agreed with the main principles of the measure, while he ended by opposing it for certain other reasons. [An HON. MEMBER: "You mean Lord Hugh Cecil?"] Yes. I was not referring to the Noble Lord opposite (Lord H. Cavendish-Bentinck). I would like to take this opportunity of expressing to that Noble Lord my warm appreciation of the large-minded view expressed by him. It is to me most hopeful for the future of this country to find a Noble Lord like the hon. Member opposite, expressing as he did distinctly Conservative views and holding such views as he does, giving utterance to such views in regard to the government of the country. It gives me greater hope than I have ever had before as to the government of the country. The Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord H. Cecil), although he agreed with the proposals in the measure, opposed it at the present time. He did not like the way it comes. It comes too much in the nature of a gift, and he is only prepared to accept the franchise if he gets it as the result of a fight. He will not accept the Bill under conditions of peace during war. He only wants a Franchise Bill under conditions of war in time of peace.
It seems to me that this House could not be better occupied at this stage than in devoting itself to getting this matter out of the way, and to recognise, as I consider this Bill does recognise, that during this time of war men and women of this country have exhibited such citizenship in the highest possible form that we have ever seen it, and in such a way as to gladden all our hearts. I cannot conceive, therefore, how we can better occupy our time than in so broadening and extending the franchise that when the War is over and peace comes, those men and women who have so thoroughly occupied themselves in saving our country are placed in a position by our efforts to carry on their citizenship in time of peace by voting for this House of Commons. I believe, as the Noble Lord opposite said, our future and our destiny depend upon our broadening the base of the people's confidence in this House of Commons. I want to see all, who are interested in our country's welfare having the opportunity to vote for the representatives in this House. I believe that men and women ought to be made as keenly interested as it is possible to make them in the welfare of this country, and to secure that in the first place they must have the vote; in the next place that vote must be made as effective as possible. This Bill does not go so far as I would like; it is a compromise, and the very fact that it is is a justification for bringing it in and passing it at the present moment. Although it does not go so fax as I would like, it goes a long way in both those directions which I have indicated, because I, for one, want to see as many persons voting in this country as it is possible to secure, and to make their votes as effective as possible. I earnestly hope that the Second Reading of this Bill will be carried by an overwhelming majority.
I desire to support the Bill, because I think a large and generous extension of the franchise is in the best interests of the country. The main objection brought forward against the Bill is that this is not an opportune time in which to deal with the question, but when we see the large and important variety of subjects which are coming before us, is it not borne in upon us that it is right and necessary that the public opinion of the country should be brought more into direct contact with this House than it has been in the past? I think it is a serious position that only about one-third of the adult male population of the country has been on the register up till now, and, with great, pressing problems in front of us, I think we should take the people into our confidence and establish the Constitution on a sound basis. The only point upon which I desire to dwell is that of agriculture. I was glad to hear the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board say that agriculture would receive the Government's careful and sympathetic consideration. We are all looking forward at the present time to great developments in our British agriculture. We hear that three million acres are going to be cultivated, in addition to what has been cultivated in the past. I have no doubt that very large cultivation will take place, and if perhaps along with that we had, as I hope we will have, a large housing policy brought before us, that we will then all see a very large addition to our population in our country districts. With such a prospect in front of us, I would like to see preferential treatment given to our county constituencies as to the population necessary in order to maintain representation.
As a Scottish Member I am naturally interested as to what effect the present Bill is going to have on our Scottish counties. I see that something like twelve of our Scottish counties will cease to send a single representative to this House as they do at present. That is going to be a very serious thing indeed for our agricultural industry in Scotland. I do not think that agriculture has been over-represented in the past. We have not had agricultural interests over-riding other interests in the country to any extent at all, but when we see the very large reduction certain to take place under this Bill by the maintenance of the 50,000 limit of population, I do view with considerable alarm the position of our oldest national industry. While I very heartily support this Bill yet I do hope that a concession will be granted so that time may be given to our counties to prove whether by increase of population, and by a larger housing policy being adopted, they are able to come up to the 50,000 limit. The suggestion I would make to the right hon. Gentleman is that, say, a concession reducing the 50,000 limit to a 40,000 limit be operative for something like ten years until we see whether the county population cannot be increased. With that proposal I support the Bill very cordially, as I am confident we are doing something, with the party spirit put aside, of a really beneficial nature to our country in bringing people into closer touch with this House, and by extending the franchise, as we are now doing.
As one who has been intimately connected with registration and political work ever since I took an interest in politics, which is something like twenty-five or thirty years ago, as one who fought a contested election last year on the register which was made up in 1914, I wish to say that I am going to support this Bill to-night. My reason for doing so is the result of the experience which I have had. I am going to vote for this Bill, not that I am altogether in favour of all parts of it, but because I want something done, and because some improvement of the present electoral system is urgently needed in this country. I know from my own registration experience—and I have heard of it—of people who have come up at elections and wanted to vote, and were unable to vote because they were off the list owing to our present ridiculous laws. I also remember, as I daresay do other hon. Members, that the 1910 (December) election was held on the old register and you had people who came into your committee rooms, and who had a claim to go on the register of the next year, 1911, but who could not vote in the December election because that register was not yet in force. That is the kind of thing that we want to do away with, and the kind of thing that must be done away with, if we desire to get the proper kind of representative in this House. There is one thing I feel very strongly about, and that my right hon. Friend the member for St. Pancras has already mentioned. It is in Clause 3. It proposes to disfranchise a great number of local government electors, in London. I do not know why the Government have drafted the Clause in the way they have, because it does seem to me that they have gone far beyond the Resolution of the Speaker's Conference. I do wish to emphasise very strongly on behalf of the strong feeling in London that we do hope that when the Committee stage comes the Government will allow us in London to retain for local government purposes—that is, county, borough, and guardians' elections—the same register as now, which is the Parliamentary register plus the women for local government purposes. It will be very unfortunate in this Bill if you are going to increase the number of Parliamentary voters, as you propose to do in Clause 1, whilst in Clause 3 you are proposing greatly to cut down the number of the local government voters in this great county of London.
I strongly disagree from, and in the Committee stage I shall vote against, proportional representation for London. I strongly object to proportional representation itself. I do not want to enter into a long argument at this late hour, but it does seem to me if proportional representation is a good and right thing for the country, it ought to apply to the county constituencies much more than the borough constituencies. You have strong minorities in some of the counties who will never be represented if they go on under the present system, while in urban districts like London, where you are going to bunch three, four, and five, constituencies together, you are going to make unwieldy und expensive constituencies, and constituencies which I do not think are at all as good as single-member constituencies. As to redistribution, I should like to know one or two things. The Home Secretary to-day answered a question of mine as to whether the Commissioners would hear evidence as regards the boundaries of the new constituencies. In the 1884–5 redistribution scheme the Commissioners had to hear evidence. I think when it is a question of the amalgamation of constituencies—possibly where you have cut up different constituencies by taking wards or portions of wards from them— I am specially dealing with London—it is very desirable that the Commissioners should be authorised to hear evidence from the local people who know the district so well. May I also put in a protest against a proposal which is being made—that is, that the City of London which, under the population scheme, has only something like 17,000 residents, should be allowed to retain two members, while districts like Westminster, Marylebone, Finsbury, and other districts in London, where they have very much larger populations, will lose their members?
We have heard a good deal from the opponents of the Bill as to why they object to this Bill. I should like to join in what has been said by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton. I have not heard a single Member put forward any workable scheme as against the Bill which has been poposed by the Government. We are told by hon. Members that they are anxious to put soldiers and sailors on the register. I am very strongly in favour of putting soldiers and sailors on the register. I do not myself think that Clause (5) goes quite so far as it might do. To-day I asked a question of the Under-Secretary for War—to which I did not get an answer—as to the number of men of eighteen, nineteen, and twenty years of age who were serving in His Majesty's Forces. My object in putting that question was not to get any information that might be useful to the enemy, but was to find out the number of men who were serving in the Army and who under this Bill will now get a vote, because under the Bill you only propose to give it to soldiers of full age—that is, to men of twenty-one. In Clause (5) I should like, if we could, to have some explanation of what "a state of war" means. We are told for the purpose of "a" war, not for "this" War. I do not know what was in the mind of the Government when they proposed that Clause. I should like personally, if we do put soldiers and sailors on the register, that we should have a column in which a man can give his regiment, and where it is stationed, and the sailor his ship, and, in addition, the qualifications that entitle the soldier or sailor to be on the register. I believe if you can amend the Instruction so that you can give the registration official provided by this Bill instructions in order to put them on the register it will simplify the thing very much, and it will prevent fraudulent claims, because you will know exactly in what regiment the man is, and you might then ask his official number. I believe thus you would get a very much more effective working register than at present. One other point. I would wish the House to consider when we come to the Committee stage—it has already been mentioned by many who support the Bill on the opposite side—Clause (25), which deals with outside bodies who come into electoral areas. I have had some experience in London of outside bodies in electioneering areas, and I do hope that the House will see its way to strengthen this Clause very much. It is not necessary that literature should be issued in the interest of a candidate or in the name of a candidate. There have been issued at elections posters issued by certain newspapers, not in the name of the candidate and with no name of the candidate mentioned, but literature used for electoral purposes, and this literature has had a very great effect. With these reservations, I trust this Bill will go through. I hope the Government are not going to refuse any fair Amendments which are proposed to make a workable scheme. If they treat the Committee stage from that point of view and consider any Amendment that is proposed in order to improve the Bill and in order to make it more workable, I believe we have in this Bill the element of a great reform for which we have been waiting for many years.
I confess I was glad to catch your eye in this Debate, because, having heard nearly all the speeches, I desire, with the permission of the House, to make one or two remarks from the point of view of a Member of the Confer- ence which you, Sir, called together. I want to say that the far-reaching character of the Bill, which is founded upon the report of that Conference, has come about, not because any group of members on that Conference have either wished or been able to carry out their political theories to their ultimate results. My hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Wilson-Fox), in that delightful maiden speech, when he told us so pleasantly that he had no political experience, at the same time showed us he was steeped in political feeling. He talked about the Radical lion and the Conservative lamb. I can assure him that if there was any deglutition it was of the most mild kind, and when we came away none of us could make up his mind who had swallowed most of the other. Of this I am sure, there was never any conscious intention on the part of any Member of the Conference by any means, direct or indirect, to get his own political theories carried into effect at the expense, and against the will, of those who hold other theories with equal sincerity, and with equal hold on the traditional politics of England. For good or evil, that report does not represent the success of one side against the other. It represents that upon which men of all parties were prepared to agree in a unique crisis, and, as they considered, for the benefit of the country, and it came about in this way: We began merely with the question of the new register, which all men agree is necessary, and we found in practice that if you have a new register intended only to bring the old register up to date, you cannot ignore the fact that the population has been moving to an extent and in a way unique compared with previous years, and that in the attempt to bring the old register up to date you are violating more than ever those maxims of one vote one value, and of reasonable redistribution between rural and urban England, which all persons really desire to see carried out.
We were led step by step from the necessity of a new register to the necessity of some new Franchise Bill, and the result is, not that in the opinion of persons who in peace times have been Liberal, or in the opinion of persons who in peace times have been Conservative, or in the opinion of persons who in peace times have been Labour, but that in the opinion of the whole Conference there was no place where the line could be drawn between the present hopeless position and a complete Bill like this one. We were driven to it, not by political theory, but by the inevitable logic of detailed examination, and the frank and honest acceptance of the facts of the situation. Here let me say that if the soldiers and sailors are not properly brought in and given proper facilities I will support any Amendment to secure that, and if the Government were opposed to it, which I do not believe they would be, I would vote against them on that point. We want to get everyone who is serving the Crown unselfishly at this time to have every electoral advantage and facility he should have. It cannot be dealt with piecemeal. It has been said, "Why do it now? Why not leave it alone?" We have had that argued from every point of view by Members of great ability and great sincerity, by Members who do not realise that the longer you leave it alone the worse and more complex the problem becomes, and the sooner you deal with it the better will be the temper of the people to deal with it in a proper non-partisan spirit. I am old enough to remember the redistribution scheme of 1884, and how different parties organised and used all those legitimate artifices for bringing about matters in the way they wished them before boundary commissioners and the House of Commons. In the last week I have had, in a part of England about which I know something, proof of the utterly different spirit that prevails now. Political opponents who in 1884 were concerned to see that boundaries were to their advantage, are now, of their own free will, coming together with the object of making agreed suggestions to Boundary Commissions in order to avoid that. That is simply the magic of the temper of the country, which is far more adapted now than it has ever been to work out this problem by consent and mutual good will.
The argument for delay seems to me, if I may say it with all courtesy, to cover a mood of disinclination, and when we see it, as we have in these Debates, expressed with the greatest skill by the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord H. Cecil), that austere personage who would only see the vote given to persons who meet with his august approval, and while the distinguished representative, nominally, of St. George's, Hanover Square (Sir G. Reid), but really of the Australian Commonwealth—when you find those pillars of the State recommending delay, how sad it is to find these political rakes, often in the most unexpected quarter saying, "We are all willing to reform when we are a little older." Everybody knows that mood, and everybody knows it springs from disinclination, and not from reasoned thinking, and I hope and trust that the House of Commons will feel that there never was a time like this when preoccupation with the War, so far from making this difficult, makes it far easier, because we are working together, not only in the War abroad but every kind of war work at home, which makes it far easier and far simpler to combine at home for the purpose of carrying out this Act of Parliament when it is passed.
There is only one other thing on which I would ask leave to say a word. I am not going to discuss proportional representation at any length. I went into your Conference, Mr. Speaker, with no special attraction towards it, but I am bound to say that it is an important part of the scheme before the House, and I do not think it fair to those of one's colleagues in this House, who take a more cautious view as to electoral development than I do, that they should not have the security which many believe to reside in proportional representation. I will not repeat arguments already expressed by many Members with greater force than I could lay claim to. I would merely add this one—I do not think it has been expressed in the Debate—that if you have proportional representation every great party in the House draws some of its members from all parts of the country. I believe it would have been better for England if the Conservative party and the Liberal party and the Labour party had not been in geographical matters so disproportionate, for the Conservatives of Wales have their own special knowledge and their own special point of view in the counsels of the Conservative party, and they have been weaker than they ought to have been. The Liberals of Birmingham have had no representation at all. Birmingham Liberalism has its own particular note and its own particular experience which are valuable not only to its party, but to the country. The Labour party of all parties, as it represents the special needs of the workers for a weekly wage, ought in its counsels to have its members not only drawn from the great industrial centres, but in due proportion from rural England and from that South of England in which they have been practically unrepresented. The effect of proportional representation is not to weaken party allegiance, but to widen and make more sound and more weighty the judgment of men who agree in principle on the great and ever-growing complex problems to which they address their minds. It is, therefore, on no party grounds, but on grounds of necessity for close investigation, and in the interests of that national stability which is the common desire of all parties and all Members of this House, that I respectfully and strongly support this Bill, and I will do everything in my power to help the Government to pass it into law, well knowing that Amendments consistent with its character and tone will be welcomed if they can the better carry out the objects which I have ventured, respectively, to express to the House.
10.0 P.M.
The point which arises for the opponents of the enfranchisement for women to-night is how they are to vote on the Second Reading of this Bill. I understand that the anti-suffragists do not intend to take any collective action as a body to-night—that is to say, you will find opponents of women's suffrage in the majority and you will find opponents of women's suffrage in the minority in the Division. I feel sure that that will make it perfectly plain that no one has a right to claim the Division to-night as a Division on the enfranchisement of women, and, in the dilemma in which we are placed, personally, I intend to abstain from voting. I think, however, it is very desirable on the Debate for the Second Reading to say that as an opponent of women's suffrage I feel strongly that this subject ought not to have been brought forward now, for reasons which at this late hour I will not restate to the House, and that if brought forward at all it ought to have been at least brought forward as a separate Bill and not entangled with other issues in such a manner as to make it quite impossible for the House to give an independent judgment on this grave issue. If one refers to the Statute Book of 1885 it will be found that there were no less than five Statutes passed into law in that year dealing with the subjects with which this Bill deals, namely, franchise, registration, and redistribution; so that the precedents do not in any way compel all these different issues to be placed in one Bill. By placing women's suffrage in this Bill you link up the fate of that proposal indissolubly with the fate of many other proposals which it is quite clear that the majority of the House desire. I should like to ask this question of the Minister in charge of the Bill with reference to the decision of the Government to leave women's suffrage to the House. Do the Government intend to go on with the Bill if the women's suffrage Clause or Clauses are rejected, and do the Parliamentary friends of women's suffrage intend to go on with the Bill if those Clauses are rejected? I have studied the words of the Leader of the House, and it seems to me to be quite plain from his view that they do not intend to go on in that case. The Leader of the House said, speaking on the 28th March:
"I myself would think it wrong and would do my best to prevent any extension of the suffrage to men which did not also extend it to women."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th March, 1917, col. 561, Vol. XCII.]
It seems to me quite clear from that that if the suffrage is not to be extended to women the Leader of the House will turn against this Bill and do his best to prevent it being passed into law. You may say that that situation will not arise, because the women's suffrage Clause is going to be passed. But that has an immense influence on what hon. Members do in going into the Lobby. If they know that the result of a vote against women's suffrage is going to be that they are going to lose a Bill, many of whose provisions they very greatly value, then their vote is greatly influenced, and it seems to me very unfair to say that in those circumstances you are leaving this to the independent judgment of the House. It is not only a case of the reforms in this Bill. There is more in it than that, and I feel that I ought to call the attention of the House to the fact that every hon. Member who intends to offer himself for re-election has a direct personal financial interest in this Bill becoming law. I do not for a moment say or think that any hon. Member would be influenced by that motive in casting his vote, but I do say that it is a very invidious situation in which to place hon. Members, and that it is a temptation with which they ought not to be assailed. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh."] No, I say it is not the atmosphere in which a great constitutional change of this kind should be decided.
It is not the place to make such charges.
I am making no charges at all. I am pointing out that charges will no doubt be made by critics of this House outside the House, and I say that hon. Members ought to have the opportunity of deciding on a great constitutional change of this character in an atmosphere totally free from anything of this kind, that is to say, on its merits and not when they know that they may lose hundreds, and in some cases thousands, of pounds by losing the Bill. I venture to say that in the circumstances the freedom of action which we have to accept or reject women's suffrage is very largely a mockery, an illusion, and a sham. But, notwithstanding this, and bearing in mind the limits of patriotism imposed by the situation, I feel very strongly that the opponents of the enfranchisement of women have to consider not merely what can we do to oppose these Clauses, but they have also to consider now, what can we possibly do to settle this controversy? Is there anything which we can do which will lull rather than raise the voice of controversy, and is there anything which we can do that would help to avoid the scandal which must accompany this legislation being forced through by the gag and the guillotine, or being wrecked by obstruction, because I do not see how one of these alternatives can be avoided Compromise, or give-and-take in the ordinary sense of the word in which it is used over the other reforms in this Bill, is, of course, quite impossible on this question. But I believe there is one direction in which agreement may be possible, and that direction is that we should legislate here and now, and within the four corners of this Bill, to provide an opportunity for the decision of the country on this question. May I read to the House a resolution which was unanimously adopted to-day at a meeting of the executive committee of the National League for Opposing Women's Suffrage? It was attended by many of the leading women who represent those great masses of their fellow countrywomen who do not desire the vote.
Lord Curzon!
This resolution was as follows:
I feel that in making that suggestion it will fall on no unsympathetic ears. It was only a few years ago that this House had the spectacle of the right hon. Gentleman moving in our Debates on the Parliament Bill Amendment after Amendment, offering this House the Referendum as a suitable instrument to settle proposals for grave constitutional change. The right hon. Gentleman who is sitting beside him (the Colonial Secretary) went even further, and he made, in December, 1911, a specific proposal in a document which was published in the "Times" of 1st December, 1911, which was signed by himself, the Secretary of State for India, the Attorney-General, and by other leading Unionists. They made this specific offer: of the controversy. What is the alternative? If Clauses 4 and 7 pass unamended you place the bulk of the opponents of woman suffrage in this position, in which they must regard the whole of the rest of the Bill, every Clause of it and every line of it, as one great vulnerable target, by every legitimate Parliamentary means to be torpedoed and destroyed. We ought not to be held responsible for a situation like that arising. Surely the responsibility must lie with those who make this proposal now and in this way. And the evil will not cease with the passing of the Bill, because for years suspicion and resentment must dog the footsteps of the enfranchised women, and in the years to come, whenever any unpopular measure or thing is passed or done, which may be traced to the influence of the female voters, men's minds will recur with indignation and wrath to the circumstances of their enfranchisement. I appeal to that great number of Parliamentary friends of women's suffrage, if they from the bottom of their hearts believe that this change is good, and that it will elevate and enrich the private and public life of the nation, can we not find some wiser and more patriotic way of settling this question, which shall remove all trace of grievance or resentment and will be worthy of the labours of a British Parliament in the crisis of a great war?
I find it difficult to follow the speech of the hon. Member who has just sat down. We have had a very interesting Debate yesterday and to-day, and a great deal has been said in the best possible spirit and in the best form upon the various aspects of the questions covered by this Bill, but it has been left to my hon. Friend at the end of the Debate to suggest that this Bill is going to be followed by all sorts of horrors, and that it is going to be accompanied by all sorts of crimes. We hear of people who are going to vote and act in a different way because they might lose thousands or hundreds of pounds. I do not know who, they are or where this money is going to, or who is going to get it. We have also heard of the unfortunate women electors, whose footsteps are to be dogged with suspicion. Why are their footsteps to be dogged with suspicion because Parliament sees fit to include them in the electorate? As the hon. Member for Watford (Mr. Arnold Ward) has already stated, I have worked together with him in a cause in which I took the greatest possible interest; and it is perfectly true that at the time to which he has referred, some of my hon. Friends and myself—let me remind my hon. Friend that we were in a majority in this House—made an offer to those who were in a minority for the sake of peace and for a settlement of the character to which he has made reference to-night.
This Debate has been remarkable for many things, but amongst others for this: that many hon. Members, headed by far the most distinguished of all, the Leader of the Opposition, have not been ashamed to say that they have changed their views, and are prepared to-day to accept a measure for the enfranchisement of women. At the same time, may I point out that not one single man in the House who in the old days advocated the enfranchisement of women has stated that he has been obliged to change his views or transfer his vote. Consequently I am not prepared on the question of women's suffrage to promise any favourable consideration for the suggestion which the hon. Member has made. I recognise fully the spirit in which the suggestion has been made, and I say seriously that I think he will find that the disagreeable alternatives which he presented to the House can be avoided. He says that we shall have to choose between coercive measures in the House of Commons or violent obstruction. May I point out that my hon. Friend the Member for Watford can avoid that alternative being presented by taking care that violent obstruction does not occur. My hon. Friend is the most representative here of the opponents of the enfranchisement of women, and if it is in that respect that we are to anticipate violence and obstruction, I can only say that I hope the hon. Member will see that wisdom will lie in another course which will avoid obstruction by giving a friendly consideration to proposals which come not from any particular Government, not with the authority of any particular party, not as the product of a consideration by party leaders in conjunction with the leaders of the Opposition, but as the result of a conference between representatives of all parties in an assembly in which no member of the Government was present and in which no Government influence was exercised.
If ever there was a case where agreement, fair consideration, and even friendly consideration can be justified, I venture to say that this is the occasion. I have already said that this Debate has been extremely interesting, and, if I venture to single out three or four of the speakers, it will not be because I do not realise that in all the speeches that have been made there has been a spirit of fair play, even in those which have criticised most adversely the Government proposals. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Colonel Sanders), who commenced the Debate, made a speech which I am sure everybody who heard it, whether they agreed with it or not, felt was worthy of an occasion such as this, and worthy of the House of Commons in its best days. We appreciated it not only for this reason, but because it came from my hon. and gallant Friend, who has just returned from rendering services of the finest character to his country and to the Empire on more than one field of war, where he has won his spurs in the most knightly fashion, and where he has shown himself to be as good a soldier as he had hitherto proved himself to be a Member of Parliament. We welcome his return, and we thank God that he has been spared the fate which has overtaken so many gallant Members of this House. We had a speech from my Noble Friend the Member for Oxford University (Lord H. Cecil), and we had from him to-day an interruption in which he described this as a party measure. He told the right hon. Gentleman the late Home Secretary (Mr. H. Samuel) that he was supporting it because it was a party measure. I must confess that I thought that interruption of my Noble Friend was altogether unworthy of his great ability and of his fine courtesy. There is no foundation for any charge of the kind. No measure was ever introduced into this House in the whole history of our legislation of which it could with less truth be said that it was in any way connected with party feeling or party organisation.
There is an understanding between the parties.
That is a non-party measure.
My Noble Friend says that there is an understanding between the parties. I suppose he means that this Bill is the result of consultations between all parties in the House, and, if that is my Noble Friend's idea of a party measure, then all I can say is that I hope we shall have plenty more of them.
I mean that my hon. Friends who represented, or professed to represent, the Unionist party made a very bad bargain.
I presume my Noble Friend means that it would have been a better bargain if he had been there. He was not there; he was rendering the country greater services elsewhere. I do not think that he is correct when he indicates that my hon. Friends and his hon. Friends who were there were swallowed by the Conference.
Some of my hon. Friends resigned.
Yes; and others took their places.
But others in whom I have not so much confidence.
We had another speech from my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Wilson-Fox), and I am sure that we all in all quarters welcome my hon. Friend's appearance in this House and realise that it means a great addition to our strength. I can assure him that I listened to his speech with great interest and with almost entire disagreement, but, as a very old Member of the House and may I say as an old Member of the Government, I accept his chastisement, his correction, and his advice as to our Bill as to our methods, as to our procedure, as to the way in which we ought to do our work here, and as to opportunities for the consideration of legislation with I hope due humilitation, but I would venture with great respect to say to him that when he has been half as long a Member of this House as I have he will find that many of the views which he has expressed this afternoon may yet be worthy of reconsideration. My right hon. Friend the Member for St. George's, Hanover Square (Sir G. Reid), made a notable contribution to this Debate. I do not know whether he is here now or if he has returned to us. The early moment apparently has not arrived. He has been referred to as "the Member for Australia." There is one very remarkable fact connected with my right hon. Friend's distinguished career in Australia, which is that for many years—I think six—he conducted the Government of Australia with a majority of only one. When I listened to my right hon. Friend's speech to-night I asked myself what sort of reply would he have made when he was responsible for the Government of Australia if his majority of one had made the speech that he made to-night. What did my right hon. Friend say? He followed someone who was rather afraid of this Bill, one of those cautious Members to whom reference has been made, and he said
"I have no fear of anything in this Bill."
Then he went through it categorically and told us at last that he agreed with everything in it, and that he was a supporter of every proposal in the Bill. Then he told a somewhat astonished House that he was going to vote against it. What was the reason? The reason was the one given so often in the course of the Debate, with the utmost sincerity by the opponents of the Bill, namely, that in war-time we ought not to legislate on matters of this kind. My right hon. Friend the Member for St. George's, Hanover Square, was as enthusiastic as anybody else in his desire that the sailors and soldiers should be enfranchised. I am quite sure that he, as an old politician, Parliamentary hand, and, as he said, as an old democrat of an advanced kind, would be the last to suggest that any Government ought, if they could avoid it, to allow an election to be taken on a register which is not only dead, but something worse. [An HON. MEMBER: "Rotten!"] My right hon. Friend commanded the attention and respect of the House, as he always does. Other speakers who have taken a somewhat similar line, have also attracted us by their speeches, but I have said to myself, through all those speeches of these two days, how unreal all this is. Here are these men of great ability, honestly convinced that certain things ought to be done, profoundly anxious that soldiers and sailors should vote, convinced that it would be a scandal if we were to have an election in which our gallant defenders on sea and land, and those who have worked with us, were unable to take a prominent part.
They will not get it by the Bill as it stands.
Yes, they will.
My hon. and gallant Friend who interrupts me will forgive me for saying that he would be a little fairer and a little more courteous if he would allow me to make my speech and wait for the Committee stage, when, if he can establish his case, as he has been told by the Government already, we are prepared to ask the House to go to the fullest extent to give effect to that. That statement has been made twice already. I am only repeating what other Members of the Government, who are just as well qualified to speak as I am, have already said. To return to what I have said, my hon. Friends who condemn this Bill advocate all these causes. They have not a word to say in defence of our existing electoral system, of our multitude of franchises, complicated and ridiculous as many of them are, they have not a word to say for our present system of registration, they have not a word to say in condemnation of our proposals here for a new method of conducting elections, and for the reduction of the cost of elections. Some of them, it is true, are opposed to woman suffrage. If you eliminate those who are opposed to woman suffrage and to proportional representation, I think the bulk of those even who are opposed to the Bill are in support of our proposals for they come back to this: we must not do it in time of war. I listened to my right hon. Friend (Sir G. Reid) with amazement, because he said, "You are not to have an election whilst the War is going on." Very well. There are many of us who share that view, and every one of us prays that, under the blessing of Heaven, the War may end soon enough to make it possible soon to have an election. But has any one of these speakers attempted to face the facts of the situation? Have they ever asked themselves what is the problem that has to be solved, what are the difficulties which have to be overcome? Not one of them. They stop short of this. Nothing has struck me more in this Debate than the extraordinary shortness of the memories of my hon. Friends on both sides of the House who oppose this Bill. I possibly remember those events better than many of them, because my withers were badly wrung by all that I went through at that time. I made many efforts, as the Minister responsible in the late Government for this part of our policy, to devise a scheme by which sailors, soldiers, and munition workers should be enfranchised without raising the whole question, without opening the door to every possible Amendment.
What I am going to say on behalf of the Government covers all questions which have been raised in this Debate by way either of criticism or suggestion. We could not find any plan by which you could enfranchise sailors, soldiers, and munition workers without making it certain that you would be compelled to debate here every other question connected with franchise and registration. The Government decided to refer this question to Parliament in the shape of a representative body. The result is that we have come to Parliament not with some scheme of our own, not with a scheme which is the product of an arrangement between the two Front Benches, but with a scheme which has behind it the backing of a Conference presided over by the First Commoner in England, a man for whose judgment and fairness we have as much respect as we have for his ability. We have an anchor which can keep us steady and secure, and without this anchor, if we had gone on with the attempt to enfranchise sailors and soldiers, we should have been again, as we were last year, a water-logged ship, drifting aimlessly till we finally came to wreck, as we did then; and if the House regrets this measure now, if it does not pass it into law as rapidly as is consistent with good legislation, it will come to wreck again. My Noble Friend (Lord H. Cecil) yesterday made some brilliant jests at the expense of the Conference. I know that the opposition to this Bill is not limited to this House. I know that outside this House those who are concerned with our organisation and our machinery, and what is called in some quarters our caucuses, look upon this Bill with suspicion and dislike and are actively opposing it. My Noble Friend, who spoke not only with his usual brilliancy but with his accustomed breadth of knowledge, yesterday told us a great deal about Benger's Food. I have not the same knowledge of Benger's Food, which is, apparently, enjoyed by my Noble Friend, but since I read his speech I feel sure this particular form of diet must have something special to commend it, or it never would have attracted his attention. I have made inquiries about it. This is what I am told—and perhaps my Noble Friend will correct me if I am wrong: I am told that it is a food which contains wonderful digestive material; that it is extremely sustaining and extremely good for the constitution, and that a bowl of Benger's Food con- tains more nourishment than you will find in any other bowl of food four times the size. I do not know whether my information is correct and I hope that the proprietors of Benger's Food will not take advantage of our advocacy of this particular article and say that we are living examples of its advantages. If I have to choose between Benger's Food as an article of diet and the very fiery liquor which is recommended to me by those able gentlemen outside who organise and control our machinery, I confess I would far rather live on Benger's Food on the recommendation of the Speaker's Conference than be guided by those outside gentlemen who regard this Bill with suspicion, not so much, I think, because they think it is a bad Bill, but because they think it may strike a blow, both in its inception and in its passage, at that particular form of party warfare which they have thought so attractive, but which some of us have found extremely expensive.
May I state in regard to this Bill what is the general position of the Government? The Bill is really a reproduction—I believe a correct reproduction—of the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference. If it can be shown that in any particular we have failed to reproduce those recommendations, we are prepared at once to make the necessary alterations. When you get outside the Speaker's Conference recommendations, you come to exactly the position you would be in if you had had no recommendations at all. You have all the suggestions which have been made in this Debate. I do not know of any subject which lends itself so easily to discussion, suggestion, and criticism and attack, as do these subjects of electoral reform, registration, and so on. We do not say to the House that we have succeeded, and that our work is perfect. It may be that we have not fully carried out the suggestions of Mr. Speaker's Conference. If so, let it be pointed out. Let the House make clear that they are of opinion that we ought to make these changes, and we will gladly make them. We do not ask the House to carry the Bill as it stands. What we do ask the House to do is to give effect to all those recommendations to which I referred the other day, with the exception of two, as based upon—
Mr. BILLING rose—
I am very sorry, but I cannot be interrupted. I have a very limited time, and I really cannot give way. Generally speaking, we ask that the recommendations of this Conference shall be taken as they are. My hon. Friend the Member for Hertfordshire asked whether we would drop the Bill in certain matters. The subject he selected was woman suffrage. Does he realise the effect of the claim which he has put to us? We have said with regard to woman suffrage and proportional representation that as we regard them as more novel in their character than any of the other proposals, we are content to leave them open to the judgment of the House. My hon. Friend wishes us to do that, and yet he asks us now to say that if the House takes a particular course we will drop the Bill. Would not that be weighting the scales at once on one side or the other? It is quite obvious that the action of the Government in regard to the Bill as a whole can only be decided when the Bill has passed through Committee and Report and comes to the Third Reading. Then we would know exactly what the Bill is. Therefore to ask us a question of that kind now would not be very reasonable. It is certainly impossible, for the reasons I have given, that we could answer either "yes" or "no." My Noble Friend finds something malign in this Conference and its recommendations. The Government on the other hand think the Conference worthy of the greatest possible gratitude and admiration, and we believe that it is an example that may well be followed in future. So much impressed are the Government with the results of that Conference that they have decided to set up as soon as they can a Conference to discuss and report upon the Second Chamber, and I can only say that I hope sincerely that that Conference when it is set up and proceeds to deliberate will act with the same judgment, the same fairness, and the same fine spirit that actuated this Conference throughout.
I am not going to deal or attempt to deal with all the detailed criticisms that have been made, but there are some general remarks which I should like to make. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bridgwater raised the question of the soldier's vote. He holds that, we do not give full effect to the recommendations of Mr. Speaker's Conference in Clause 5. I confess that I was interested to find that there is this doubt, because on the Committee which prepared this Bill I fought with all the energy of which I am capable for the soldiers and sailors. My object was to get on the register every soldier and sailor over the age of twenty-one, and that is the Government's intention; and if we have fallen short of that, decidedly we will make an alteration. With regard to the giving of this vote, I share the view of the right hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. Hayes Fisher), and I think I favoured the scheme for voting by proxy. What happened? This proposal and all the other proposals, so I understand, were most carefully and exhaustively considered by the Conference, and they finally came down on the side of setting up a list for absent voting. I do think, speaking for myself, that voting by proxy is the best, but this Conference, after an exhaustive inquiry and investigating the matter from every point of view, came to this conclusion. If the House decides that there is a better solution, let the House do so. What we want is to enfranchise as many soldiers and sailors as we can, and that they shall, so far as is practicable and possible, be given opportunity to record their votes.
At the next General Election?
Of course, we are talking about the election; that is why we are passing the Bill. One other suggestion has been made by the hon. and gallant Gentleman as to the injustice done to the agricultural interest. I quite agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Fulham that unless you are going to devise some system which has never yet been applied to our electoral divisions, I do not think it is easy to avoid some loss in the agricultural representation. I speak as one deeply interested in agriculture, and I am as anxious as he that they should be given the fullest possible representation; but the Government fully realise that this subject ought to be debated in the House of Commons. We believe it can be debated on Part IV. of the Bill and the Schedule, but if it cannot, there are other ways by which the subject can be discussed. My hon. and gallant Friend may rest assured that the Government have not the smallest intention of depriving the House of the right to discuss this question of representation, in dealing with it in advance through the Commission; or it might be dealt with by an Instruction to the Committee, or an Instruction to the Commission, that it was to be dealt with in this or that way. So far as I know that would be within the powers and rules of the House. If, however, it cannot be discussed in that way, there are other ways in which it could be discussed. We believe that on the whole the Conference have come to the wisest and fairest conclusion, and I doubt whether it would be found possible to vary that in the direction which my hon. and gallant Friend indicates. I do not hold out any hopes that a better or fairer solution will be found, but I do want the House to understand, and especially my hon. and gallant Friend, that we have no intention of using what I should regard as unfair means to prevent the House from discussing any material part of our proposals, if they desire so to do. My Noble Friend the Member for Oxford University suggested that this is a Bill which has special attractions for members of the Liberal Party. I daresay my Noble Friend does not think so, but I believe myself to be as good and as stout a member of the Unionist Party as my Noble Friend. Certainly I think I have fought the greater part of my life for what I believed to be true Conservative principles. I took part in the 1884 and 1885 discussions over the franchise. I never thought that it was in the interests of the Conservative party to oppose a wise and fair extension of the franchise. I believe our party has suffered whenever it embarked on a long career of opposition to the extension of the franchise. But I have always attached to my position as to proposals for the extension of the franchise certain conditions, and those were that there should be fair consideration of the whole question not from the mere party point of view, but from the general point of view. Is this a compromise, or is it not?
No; it is one-sided.
Let us see. My hon. and gallant Friend, who is always courageous, says it is all one-sided. What has been the policy of the Liberal party ever since I can remember it? Why, it has been for a drastic reform in our electoral laws. Only the other day we were asked to vote for the abolition of the plural vote. What does this Bill do, what are these, recommendations? These recommendations preserve the dual vote, they preserve the representation of the universities, they preserve the representation of the City, they provide machinery by which the claim we have always advanced is recognised in connection with the single vote policy by which, if you are going to have one vote, each vote should be given equal value.
Including conscientious objectors.
What about the Liberal party? They advocate a much wider extension, and they are opposed to many provisions in this Bill. Our Unionist Friends object to this Bill on the score that we have been swallowed up by our political opponents. I ask them in all earnestness, as strong and convinced a Conservative to-day as I ever was in my life, what they really mean when they say you are not to deal with this question to-day? Do they believe that in a year or two years' time they would get a solution of this question more friendly and satisfactory to themselves than this is? Do they think when the War is over and when we return to our old party divisions and party passions, which is anticipated in some quarters, that our position will be better than it is now? For my part, I see in this a compromise in which both sides give something and in which both sides get something. That is my idea of a fair compromise, and it is a compromise which I believe our party, the Unionist party, to whom I belong, would do well to accept. That is really looking at the matter only from the party point of view, but we have to look at it from something much wider. Some of my hon. Friends have said, "Why do this in time of war"? My right hon. Friend the Member for St. George's (Sir G. Reid) argued that we ought not to pass this Bill, good though the Bill is, to-day. What can these hon. Gentlemen mean who tell us we must put this off until the War is over? It will take us how long to pass this Bill?—six weeks. [An HON. MEMBER: "No!"] What, then, will it be. It shall be less if you like, but I put it as short as I can imagine it is possible to be. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House supposes that we will do it in less time. What remains?—six or eight more months of hard work before a register can possibly be got out. We are now in the month of May. Do the opponents of this Bill—that is the ques- tion they must answer to-night before they give their votes against this Bill—seriously propose that we are to wait eight, ten, or twelve months—presuming that by God's mercy the War is over by then—before we begin to lay the foundations of an electoral system, without which it would be impossible to conduct an election when the War is over? It is not a question of the inclusion of Ireland. It is not a question of the fair treatment of this or that class of voter. These are not the questions that you have to consider now in giving your vote. Those who oppose this measure take upon themselves, when they go into the Lobby, to say, When peace has come, when you want a Parliament really representing the people of this country and enjoying their confidence, when you want that Parliament to ratify the Peace settlement, when you want it to face, and at once, all these great Imperial problems with which you are confronted and which will be demanding solution; when you want that Parliament to give the Government of the day the strength without which it will be impossible for them to face those enemies in trade and commerce who are now our enemies in the field; when you want that Parliament to do its work, which will not brook delay and which cannot be postponed—it did not rest with us in August, 1914, to say when and how the War should be declared: we had to take up the challenge which others threw down at their chosen time and opportunity—and as it was then, so it will be again in the fields of Imperial and national enterprise. We shall have to meet our enemies, and must be prepared with the power which we can only derive from the people. Let us be fortified by the strength which only a contented and satisfied people can give to the Government of the country. Let us realise that, blessed, as we have been, above all the nations of the world in our relief from internal dissensions, strife, and trouble, yet the world is full of anxiety and difficulty, and those people will be wise and prudent who take time by the forelock, and give to their country those reforms which will make us strong and able to do our duty in the day of peace.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
The House divided: Ayes, 329; Noes, 40.
Division No. 40.] AYES. [10.58 p.m. Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) Du Cros, Sir Arthur Philip Kerry, Earl of Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward Klley, James Daniel Adamson, William Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) King, Joseph Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Edge, Captain William Knight, Captain E. A. Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. Faber, George Denison (Clapham) Lamb, Sir Ernest Henry Agnew, Sir George William Falconer, James Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon,S.Molton) Ainsworth, Sir John Stirling Fell, Arthur Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) Ffrench, Peter Larmer, Sir J. Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) Fiennes, Hon. Sir Eustace Edward Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) Anderson, W. C. Finney, Samuel Layland-Barrett, Sir F. Arnold, Sidney Fisher, Rt. Hon. H. A. L. Lee, Sir Arthur Hamilton Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes Levy, Sir Maurice Astor, Hon. Waldorf Flavin, Michael Joseph Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Baird, John Lawrence Fleming, Sir John Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Baker, Rt. Hon. Harold T. (Accrington) Fletcher, John Samuel Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lieut.-Col. A. R. Baldwin, Stanley Forster, Henry William Long, Rt. Hon. Walter Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Foster, Philip Staveley Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- France, Gerald Ashburner Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) Galbraith, Samuel Loyd, Archie Kirkman Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Gardner, Ernest Macdonald, Rt. Hon. J. M. (Falk. B'ghs) Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick Burghs) Gastrell, Lieut.-Col. W. Houghton Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) Bathurst, Capt. C. (Wilts, Wilton) Gibbs, Col. George Abraham McGhee, Richard Beach, William F. H. Gilbert, J. D. McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Beale, Sir William Phipson Goddard, Rt. Hon. Sir Daniel Ford Mackinder, H. J. Beauchamp, Sir Edward Goldstone, Frank M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs.,Spalding) Beck, Arthur Cecil Goulding, Sir Edward Alfred Maclean, Rt. Hon. Donald Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Greenwood, Sir G. G. (Peterborough) McMicking, Major Gilbert Bentham, G. J. Greenwood, Sir Hamar (Sunderland) Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- Greig, Colonel J. W. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) Bethell, Sir J. H. Griffith, Rt. Hon. Ellis Jones Macpherson, James Ian Bigland, Alfred Gwynn, Stephen Luclus (Galway) MacVeagh, Jeremiah Billing, Pemberton Hackett, John Maden, Sir John Henry Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) Mallalieu, Frederick William Blake, Sir Francis Douglas Hall, Frederick (Yorks, Normanton) Manfield, Harry Boland, John Pius Hamersley, Alfred St. George Marks, Sir George Croydon Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Hancock, John George Martin, Joseph Brace, Rt. Hon. William Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence Mason, David M. (Coventry) Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell Harmsworh, Cecil (Luton, Beds) Mason, James F. (Windsor) Bridgman, William Clive Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) Meagher, Michael Brookes, Warwick Harris, Henry Percy (Paddington, S.) Middlemore, John Throgmorton Broughton, Urban Hanion Harris, Percy A. (Leicester, S.) Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Brunner, John F. L. Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Money, Sir L. G. Chiozza Bryca, J. Annan Healy, Maurice (Cork) Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Bull, Sir William James Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N.E) Morgan, George Hay Burns, Rt. Hon. John Hemmerde, Edward George Morison, Hector Butcher, John George Henderson, John M. (Aberdeen, W.) Morrell, Philip Buxton, Noel Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Carew, C. R. S. Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Cator, John Hewart, Sir Gordon Needham, Christopher T. Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George Hewins, William Albert Samuel Neville, Reginald J. N. Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick Hibbert, Sir Henry F. Newman, John R. P. Cecil,Rt.Hon.Lord Robert(Herts,Hitchin) Higham, John Sharp Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. Hill, Sir James (Bradford, C.) Nolan, Joseph Chancellor, Henry George Hills, John Waller Norman, Sir Henry Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Hinds, John Nuttall, Harry Clough, William Hodge, Rt. Hon. John O'Brien, William (Cork, N.E.) Clyde, J. Avon Hogge, James Myles O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy O'Malley, William Cochrane, Cecil Algernon Holt, Richard Durning O'Neill, Capt. Hon. H. (Antrim, Mid) Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) Hope, Harry (Bute) Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Collins, Sir W. (Derby) Hope, Lieut.-Col. J. A. (Midlothian) Outhwaite, R. L. Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Horne, E. Parker, James (Halifax) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Parkes, Ebenezer Cory, Sir Clifford John (St. Ives) Hughes, Spencer Leigh Parrott, Sir James Edward Cory, James Herbert (Cardiff) Illingworth, Rt. Hon. Albert H. Partington, Hon. Oswald Courthope, George Loyd Ingleby, Holcombe Pearce, Sir Robert (Staffs, Leek) Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Jackson, Lt.-Col. Hon. F. S. (York) Pearce, Sir William (Limehouse) Craig, Col. James (Down, E.) Jacobsen, Thomas Owen Pennefather, De Fonblanque Crean, Eugene Jessel, Col. Herbert M. Perkins, Walter F. Croft, Brigadier-General Henry Page John, Edward Thomas Peto, Basil Edward Currie, George W. Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) Philipps, Maj.-Gen. Ivor (Southampton) Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) Jones. H. Haydn (Merioneth) Pollock, Ernest Murray Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe) Pratt, J. W. Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Jones, W. Kennedy (Hornsey) Pretyman, Ernest George Davies, M. Vaughan. (Cardiganshire) Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Jowett. Frederick William Pringle, William M. R. Denniss, E. R. B. Joyce, Michael Prothero, Rt. Hon. Rowland Edmund Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H. Keating, Matthew Radford, Sir George Haynes Dillon, John Kellaway, Frederick George Raffan, Peter Wilson Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir J. B. Kenyon, Barnet Randles, Sir John S.
Rawson, Colonel R. H. Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Wheler, Major Granville C. H. Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Snowden, Philip White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) Rees, G. C. (Carnarvonshire, Arfon) Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert White, Patrick (Meath, North) Rendall, Atheistan Starkey, John R. Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. Richardson, Albion (Peckham) Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth) Richardson, Arthur (Rotherham) Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, Wesi) Wiles, Rt. Hon. Thomas Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Sutherland, John E. Wilkie, Alexander Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Sutton, John E. Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.) Roberts, George H. (Norwich) Swann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. Williams, John (Glamorgan) Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Wiliams, Penry (Middlesbrough) Robertson, Rt. Hon. John M. Tootill, Robert Williams, Col. Sir Robert (Dorset, W.) Robinson, Sidney Toulmin, Sir George Williams, Thomas J. (Swansea) Roche, Walter F. (Pembroke) Trevelyan, Charles Philips Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Wercs., N.) Rowlands, James Tryon, Captain George Clement Wilson, Captain Leslie O. (Reading) Rowntree, Arnold Turton, Edmund Russborough Wilson, Lt.-Cl. Sir M. (Beth'I Green, S.W.) Royds, Edmund Walker, Colonel William Hall Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Rutherford, Sir John (Lancs., Darwen) Walsh, J. (Cork, South) Winfrey, Sir Richard Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry (Norwood) Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) Wing, Thomas Edward Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) Welmer, Viscount Scott, A. MacCullum (Glas., Bridgeton) Wardle, George J. Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T. Worthington Evans, Major Sir L. Seely, Lt.-Col. Sir C. H. (Mansfield) Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) Yee, Alfred William Sharman-Crawford, Colonel R. G. Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) Young, William (Perthshire, East) Shortt, Edward Watson, John, B. (Stockton) Yoxall, Sir James Henry Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Ailesbrook Watt, Henry A. Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir F. E. (Walton) Wedgwood, Commander Josiah C. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Smith, Harold (Warrington) Weigell, Lieut.-Col. William E. G. A. Lord Edmund Talbot and Major Guest. Smith, H. B. Less (Northampton) Weston, J. W.
NOES. Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir F. G. Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Bathurst, Col. Hon, A. B. (Glouc., E.) Grant, James Augustus Reid, Rt. Hon. Sir George H. Bellairs, Commander C. W. Gretton, John Remnant, James Farquharson Blair, Reginald Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) Beles, Lieut.-Colenel Denis Fortescue Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.) Bowden, Major G. R. Harland Jackson, Sir John (Devenport) Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) Beyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Warde, Colonel C. E. (Kent, Mid) Beyton, James Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) Wilson-Fox, Henry Burdett-Coutts, W. Mallaby-Dealey, Harry Wood, John (Stalybridge) Carnegie, Lieut.-Colonel D. G. Meux, Hon. Sir Hedworth Yate, Colonel C. E. Cautley, H. S. Meysey-Thompson, Colonel E. C. Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon) Nield, Herbert Colonel Sanders and Colonel Archer- Shee. Craik, Sir Henry Paget, Almeric Hugh Dixon, C. H. Quilter, Sir Cuthbert
Main Question put, and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.— [Mr. J. Hope.]
Billeting of Civilians Bill
Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th February, proposed the Question, " That this House do now adjourn."
Question put, and agreed to.
House adjourned accordingly at a Quarter after Eleven o'clock.