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Commons Chamber

Volume 93: debated on Friday 25 May 1917

House of Commons

Friday, May 25, 1917

Private Business

Ebbw Vale Urban District Council Bill,

Read the third time, and passed.

Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 to 1909

Copy presented of Special Report by the Board of Trade stating the grounds on which they have dispensed with the consent of the urban district council of Maldens and Coombe to the breaking up of certain roads in the urban district for the purposes of the Epsom Rural District Electric Lighting (Extension) Provisional Order, 1917 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Ministry of Food

Copies presented of Beans, Peas, and Pulse (Requisition) Order, 1917, and Sugar (Restriction) Order (No. 3), 1917, made by the Food Controller under the Defence of the Realm Regulations [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Arklow Harbour

Copy presented of Report of the Arklow Harbour Commissioners and Abstract of Accounts for 1916 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

BOARD OF EDUCATION.

Copy presented of Report of the Board of Education for the year 1915–16 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Army

Copy presented of Interim and Final Reports of the Army Counsil (Halakite) Inquiry [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Munitions

Gretna Tavern, Carlisle

asked the Minister of Munitions whether the Gretna Tavern at Carlisle is furnished with chairs bearing the royal monogram; and whether His Gracious Majesty's consent was obtained for this use of the Royal monogram?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. It has been the practice from time immemorial to affix the Royal monogram on all articles of furniture supplied for official use to denote that it is the property of His Majesty's Government.

asked the Minister of Munitions whether, on the occasion of His Gracious Majesty's recent visit to Carlisle, the Royal Standard was flown from the flagstaff of the Gretna Tavern; and whether this was done with his sanction?

In accordance with the Office of Works Regulations, the Royal Standard was flown during the time their Majesties were in the building. No sanction on the part of my right hon. Friend was asked or was necessary.

Is not the Royal Standard the personal emblem of the Sovereign, and does the Minister think it consistent with His Majesty's well-known desire to limit the consumption of alcoholic drink during the War to encourage and advertise that sale under the Royal Standard itself?

Is it not a fact that at the Gretna Tavern not more than 10 per cent. of the receipts are from alcoholic liquors and that the purpose of the tavern is to discourage the consumption of alcoholic liquor and to encourage the sale of non-intoxicating drinks and food?

In answer to the second supplementary question, that is so, and it is within the knowledge of all who have taken the trouble to get acquainted with the facts. In reply to the supplementary question put by the hon. Member (Mr. Molteno), I think it is quite a natural thing that the Royal Standard should be flown on this occasion, and it was flown in accordance with the Regulations.

Was His Majesty's permission obtained? I asked if the Royal Standard is not under the personal control of the Sovereign. It is not so with the Union Jack, which is the official flag. I understand that the Royal Standard is the personal flag of the Sovereign.

On a point of Order. Is it not your ruling, Sir, that the name of His Majesty shall not be introduced into Debate, especially with a view to influencing opinion? That introduction certainly influenced mine.

Liquor Traffic (Central Control Board)

asked the Minister of Munitions whether the district under the Liquor Control Board of the Gretna area is situated mostly in the county of Dumfriesshire, which has long been the county affording the least facilities for drinking in the United Kingdom, inasmuch as there are no public-houses in more than one-half of its parishes; and whether the Central Liquor Control Board will have some regard to the views and wishes of its inhabitants, who view with concern the association of the sale of drink with places of public entertainment and amusement and its provisions under the auspices of the State?

The Control Board have reduced the number of licences which they have acquired in Dumfriesshire by nearly 50 per cent. The constitution of their local advisory committee keeps them very closely in touch with the views and wishes of the inhabitants of those parts of the county which are within the sphere of the Board's undertaking, and the representatives of the local authorities of most of the remaining parts of the county recently expressed a strong desire for the extension of the Board's undertaking over their own districts.

Can the hon. Gentleman explain how it is that the hon. Member for Dumfriesshire (Mr. Molteno) in one question is so anxious to discourage the sale of liquor and in the next to increase the number of public houses?

May I ask how it is that the local advisory committee is kept in ignorance of the concerns upon which it is supposed to advise, and that its opinion is not regarded when it is given?

The answer is that it is not so. In reply to the first supplementary question, I have not made an effort to understand it, and I do not intend to.

Warship Losses (Courts-Martial)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether every order for a court martial to inquire into the loss of a ship still contains the words, used for several centuries, pursuant to the custom of the Navy to inquire into the loss of the said ship.

The words used are, "to inquire into the cause of the loss of His Majesty's ship—, and to try—," that is to say, the survivors. The words "Pursuant to the custom of the Navy" are not used and have not been used for a number of years.

Long before that. The words prior to 1908 were "to inquire into the loss of His Majesty's ship—and to try—for their conduct on the occasion." The words "for their conduct on the occasion" dropped out in 1908, no doubt as being unnecessary. There was no other change in the form.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many warships have been lost in the present War; in how many of these cases have there been courts-martial, in accordance with the established rules and practice or the Service up to the year 1907; whether any of these courts-martial have been held in public or their proceedings subsequently published as in former times; and whether even the full terms of reference, word for word, on which the courts were to conduct their proceedings have ever been made public?

It would manifestly not be in the public interest to reply to the first two parts of the question. As regards the third, generally speaking, all courts-martial are public, but in exceptional cases where matters of a confidential nature have to be referred to, permission is given by the Admiraty under King's Regulation 674 to close the court while the confidential matters are under examination. There is no such thing as terms of reference in connection with courts-martial. The order convening a court-martial is made on the form which my hon. and gallant Friend can see in the "Manual of Naval Law."

Has the public had access to any court-martial for the loss of His Majesty's warships during the course of this War?

I should like to have notice of that question. My hon. and gallant Friend knows that a Regulation was issued in the early part of the War, Regulation 674, which provided that during the War the Admiralty may give sanction for proceedings to be held in private.

Have we had any single case of the publication of any evidence or even of the verdicts, except incomplete verdicts, in answer to questions in this House?

I am afraid I cannot answer a detailed question of that sort without notice.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty, having regard to the fact that the first break with the established rules and practice of the Navy of holding courts-martial on the survivors to inquire into the loss of a warship was in the case of the destroyer H.M.S. "Ariel," lost on 19th April, 1907, when the regulations were introduced under Article 663 making the convening of courts-martial in such cases subject to any orders from time to time made by the Admiralty?

Food Supplies

Sugar

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of food if his attention has been called to the fact that sugar is being sold in the Floodgate Street area of Birmingham at two ounces a penny; and what steps he proposes to take to stop such a price being charged to poor persons?

The attention of the Food Controller has been called to the practice referred to in the question. The sale of sugar in very small quantities clearly involves additional expense to the retailer. I am, however, making inquiries with a view to taking action if desirable. Local co-operative effort on behalf of poor persons might in such cases effect more good than official action.

Does not the hon. Gentleman think it strange that in these various questions put down with regard to the rise in prices, the Food Controller seems to find a reasonable reason why it should be done? Is that by way of excuse, or an actual fact?

No, Sir; I wish to make it perfectly clear that I think this is an undoubtedy excessive charge to make upon poor persons, but under existing arrangements the only way this can be dealt with is to stop the supply of the retailer—the present allowance granted to the retailer through the medium of the wholesaler. It might be very difficult. However, investigation is being made into this particular case.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in many poor parts of London queues of people have to wait outside grocers' shops in order to get the necessary supplies of sugar?

Yes, Sir; but it may be interesting to mention that even under the ticket system prevailing in Germany there are queues equally long.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if his attention has been called to advertisements in Birmingham asking for offers of half a ton of sugar at 6d. per lb., spot cash, for ice-cream purposes; and what steps he proposes to take to stop such large diversions of sugar for more useful purposes.

A copy of an advertisement to this effect has been received by the Ministry of Food. No one would be entitled, in answer to such an advertisement, to supply with sugar anyone whom he did not supply in 1915, and in the event of his doing so his sugar allowances would be liable to be suspended. The quantity of sugar used in the manufacture of ice-cream is inconsiderable, and the Food Controller does not at present propose to prohibit its use for this purpose.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he can explain why American white refined sugar is being imported at a premium of £10 per ton when Cuban raw sugar is available in this country; and why some of the largest wholesale distributors in the, country have been refused supplies of the same for the grocery trade after that trade had expressed its readiness to accept and use this unrefined quality?

A certain quantity of American granulated sugar has been purchased to meet the requirements of fruit preserving, for which Cuban raw sugar is quite unsuitable. Supplies of Cuban raw sugar to wholesale distributors have been refused because, as has already been explained, the impurities in sugar of that description render it unsuitable for general consumption as a grocery sugar. It contains iron, and if strawberry jam were made with it it would turn it black.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether the Sugar Commission in their dealings with sugar planters always ask them to supply low grades, that is, refinery sugar polarising 96 per cent.; whether he is aware that such action is largely influenced by the refiners, who are anxious to keep their refineries open; and whether sugar planters, if they had been asked to supply a higher-grade sugar which could be sold direct to the public, could equally well supply it?

The Sugar Commission do not usually deal direct with planters, nor does the Commission influence in any way the character of the sugar which planters produce. That has been determined long ago by the methods practised and the plant employed in treating the juice of the sugar cane, and it does not lie with the Sugar Commission to alter it. The influence of the refiners does not affect the policy of the Commission.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food, in reference to a recent statement on behalf of the Department regarding impurities in raw Cuban and Java centrifugal sugars, will he say whether the refiners have from time to time melted raws the polariscope test of which was 97 to 98 degrees and if the alleged high percentage of impurities is overstated, and will he produce copies of the analysis of sugars melted during the last three months; and will he say whether the polariscope test of Cuban raws now being refined is higher than that of the Jamaica and Demarara raws which the Royal Commission allocate for grocery use?

The question appears to be based on the supposition that the polariscope test of sugar is indicative of the impurities that may be mixed with the sugar. This, however, is not the case, as sugars showing a high polariscope reading may contain a large percentage of impurities, rendering them unfit for direct human consumption. Conversely sugars with a low polariscope reading may be relatively free from such impurities. There appears therefore to be no reason for furnishing the analyses asked for, as it would involve a large amount of unnecessary labour.

Having regard to the fact that the hon. and gallant Gentleman the other day made some serious suggestions about the impurities of this sugar, why should he not be able to give us the analysis which was made previously when I asked my question?

Because there would be nothing gained if the analysis desired is one which will result from the polariscope test. The polariscope is effective in determining the amount of sucrose in the sugar itself—that is, the amount of saccharine matter—but it would not be effective in making any determination with regard to such adulterants as beetles, lice or lizards.

Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman allow any tests of impurity previous to my asking my question, and then we will go into the lizard question afterwards?

I am trying to point out that no test would, in fact be effective. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will have a little discussion upon the chemical side of the problem after questions. I should like to invite him to come and see the collection now to be found in the Sugar Commission museum. As a zoologist it would interest him.

Allotments (Damage by Rabbits)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he proposes to take any steps to secure that the allotment holders of Lambourne shall have their crops protected from the ravages of rabbits proceeding from the London County Council property of Hainault Forest; and whether he is aware that up to the present time the London County Council have refused in their letters to the Board of Agriculture to assist in any way?

My hon. Friend has asked me to take this question, as matters relating to the growing of crops in this country fall to the Board of Agriculture and not the Ministry of Food. As I understand it, the London County Council have decided that they would not be justified in fencing the allotments in question, and I can only refer my right hon. and gallant Friend to the answer given to his previous question on the subject on the 23rd of last month. Under the Rabbits Order, 1917, the Agricultural Executive Committee for the county of Essex may authorise in writing any person to enter upon any land in the county for the purpose of killing and taking rabbits.

Uncultivated Land (Bodmin)

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether his attention has been called to the fact that a considerable piece of uncultivated land at present used for grazing a few sheep is attached to the military barracks at Bodmin, in Cornwall, and that efforts have been made locally to obtain the permission of the military authorities for the cultivation of this land by the planting of potatoes or cereals, but that permission has been persistently refused; and whether, in view of the fact that such refusal in its effect upon the public, especially in a small town, is discouraging to the national effort now being made to increase the production of food, he will endeavour to obtain from the military authorities permission for this land to be let to a suitable person or persons for the purpose of cultivation in the national interests?

The Board have not received any representations on this matter, but they will communicate with the War Office at once as desired by the hon. Member.

Poultry Keeping

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether the Government have consulted the executive of the National Utility Poultry Society, or other practical poultry farmers, as to the steps to be taken to save the poultry industry of the country; and, if so, what has been the result of such consultation?

I have already received a deputation representing the leading poultry clubs, including the National Utility Poultry Society, and have made arrangements for the appointment of an advisory committee to consider the means to be adopted to safeguard the interests of the industry at the present time.

asked whether any special foods, in addition to tail corn, are to be set aside to provide the country with home-produced eggs?

The question of the allocation of special foods such as tail or damaged corn and biscuit dust will be considered by the Advisory Committee referred to in the hon. Member's previous question.

I hope not. The advice of the Board has been that as long as the poultry are laying it would be a damage to the public interest to destroy them, and they must be kept going as cheaply as possible till that period is over.

May we hope for a decision from the Board and the Advisory Committee before the laying season is over.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether the Government propose to take any steps to exterminate foxes in order to permit farmers to let their poultry wander about the fields so that they may be kept at a minimum expenditure of grain foods?

The Board have on several occasions impressed on the Master of Foxhounds Association the importance of reducing the number of foxes, and the great majority of the hunts have taken effective action in this direction. They have also agreed that no objection will be raised to the shooting of foxes by farmers whenever they are doing serious damage.

Will my right hon. Friend consider offering a reward for every fox shot?

Canadian Cattle

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether representations were made to him by the Canadian Ministers during their recent visit to this country on the subject of the prohibition of the landing of Canadian cattle except for slaughter at the port of debarkation; and whether he can make any statement on the subject?

Up to October, 1892, Canadian cattle could be landed in this country without being subject to slaughter at the port of landing. During 1892 foot and mouth disease and pleuro-pneumonia scourged the continent of Europe, and the landing of foreign cattle from those European countries, which had been previously treated on the same footing as Canada, was successively prohibited. In October, 1892, cases of pleuro-pneumonia were suspected in two cargoes of cattle imported from Canada. Acting on expert advice the landing of Canadian cattle, except for slaughter at the port, was therefore prohibited by the Board. Under the Diseases of Animals Act, 1896, the prohibition received statutory permanence. Strong representations on the subject of the prohibition, but more particularly as to the stigma which its form casts on Canadian livestock, were made to me by the Canadian Ministers during their recent visit to England. Canada disputes the genuineness of the cases on which prohibition was originally founded, and, without doubt, has always been exceptionally, if not entirely, free from foot and mouth disease and pleuro-pneumonia. Canadian feeling, therefore, resents the imputation of infection as unjust. The prohibition cannot, as I am advised by the Chief Veterinary Officer of the Board, be justified on the ground of health, and cattle bred and reared in Canada and leaving that country for the first time by direct shipment to a British port ought not to be excluded under the Diseases of Animals Act, 1896. I cannot say whether, or under what conditions, Canadian cattle, as defined above, might hereafter be permitted to enter this country except for slaughter at the ports. At present, when farmers at home are being asked to reduce their livestock, permission is plainly impossible. But the prohibition rests rather on the agricultural policy of the United Kingdom than on the risk of diseases from which, for many years, Canada herself has been most remarkably, if not entirely, free.

Military Service

Substitution

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he can state the result of the representations made to the Government as t6 the necessity of finding men of a lower category to replace the 16,000 A men taken from agriculture for military service on 10th May?

I regret that I am not yet in a position to give any definite answer to this question.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any idea when he will be able to make a statement?

Before the House reassembles I have no doubt I shall have a definite answer.

Miners

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he has received a memorial from the Kirkcaldy Chamber of Commerce protesting against the further recruitment of members of the commercial community while thousands of young men engaged in mines who are available for military service are only employed a few days a week; and what action he has taken in respect of the same?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. A further measure of recruitment of mines was announced in the Press on the 21st inst. under which it is proposed to recruit all medically classified A men who have entered the coal mining industry since 4th August, 1914, and were of military age at that date, with the exception of certain barred classes. Fifeshire miners are also being asked to volunteer for timber felling and for work in the English ironstone mines.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the military authorities are still pursuing the policy of taking out men Who have been in the mines practically all their lives previous to the War, which is the means in many instances of reducing the output of coal?

Can the hon. Gentleman say what steps are being taken to replace the labour of the young men taken out by others not of military age or unfit for military service, in order to keep up the output of coal?

It would be impossible to maintain the output of coal at the prewar level, but every endeavour is made for the National Service Department to ensure that there is, so far as practicable, am adequate supply of labour for the mines.

In view of the shortage of coal, is it not better to leave the miners in the pit and to allow the commercial men to go?

Is the hon. Member aware that some of these young men have gone into the pit since the War, and are only working two days a week?

Will the hon. Gentleman call out these young miners by age—say nineteen first, then twenty, and twenty-one, at stated periods?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether representations have been received from the Kirkcaldy Tribunal protesting against the calling up of additional men for military service belonging to the commercial community while a number of young men available for military service are only employed in the mines two or three days a week; and what action he has taken, or proposes to take, in the matter?

Representations have been received from the Kirkcaldy Tribunal protesting against the number of young men engaged in coal mines who are only employed in the mines two or three days a week. Arrangements are being made for the release of a large number of men who are at present engaged in the coal mines, and who have entered the coal mines since August. 1914.

Review of Exceptions Act,

asked how men stand under the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act who receive their note for re-examination but whose actual examination is then postponed to a later date; whether they have thirty days in which to appeal to a tribunal from the second or subsequent date or only from the first; and how, if they are not examined within thirty days of the first calling-up notice, can they appeal?

A man to whom a notice under the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act, 1917, is properly sent is deemed to have been enlisted in His Majesty's Forces and forthwith transferred to the Reserve as from the appointed date. The appointed date is the thirtieth day after the date of the notice. At any time before the appointed date applicable to him, a man to whom the notice is sent has the right of application to a tribunal for exemption, and that right is quite independent of the date of the medical re-examination of the man. Application to the tribunal is made by lodging a form with the tribunal, and this may be done whether or not the medical examination has already taken place.

East End Raid

asked the Under-Secretary for War whether his attention has been called to a raid on Friday night last in the East-End of London, when gangs of police and Australian soldiers armed with knuckle-dusters entered a number of billiard clubs and public restaurants, stopped tramcars, and seized every man there and arrested numbers of men in the street; whether several hundreds were arrested and kept in crowded cells for a large part of the night; and how many persons evading their military obligations were discovered by this process?

The proceedings referred to were taken by the military authorities with the assistance of some twenty police. There is no foundation for the allegation that police and Australian soldiers were armed with knuckle-dusters. The Provost-Marshal's Department was concerned with military absentees, and the police had the right to question those who might have been found to have evaded their military obligations. A recruiting officer was present with the provost staff to help with his knowledge of the locality and of the forms of exemption from military service. As the papers could not be examined in the streets, the individuals concerned were taken to Aldgate Section House, where there was ample accommodation and lavatory facilities. There is a very strong feeling in the neighbourhood against aliens, who are alleged to be getting the profitable employment vacated by those who had joined the Army; precautions had to be, and were, taken to prevent those who might be detained from molestation. I may add that over 500 absentees and deserters have been arrested by the police in this area in the last six months.

When does the hon. Gentleman intend to get on with the Bill to deal with these aliens?

Will the hon. Member say on whose evidence he states that there is strong feeling in the locality against these aliens, and whether he will consult the Mayor of Whitechapel upon this subject, and especially ask the Home Office what information has been given by the hon. Member for Whitechapel, who is also the Mayor of Whitechapel?

It is a well-known fact that there is strong feeling, and an expression of that feeling has been publicly stated in this House. I am sure that hon. Members have received from public authorities—I have received it only last week—a statement to that effect.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is no such person as the Mayor of Whitechapel?

Medical Examinations

asked what procedure is open to a man called up for examination under the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act, 1917, who is dissatisfied with his medical classification, to have his case submitted to a medical appeal board?

An application to be examined by a special medical board is submitted for the consideration of the War Office by the military representative in a case where such examination is recommended by a military service tribunal before which the man concerned has laid his case.

Are we to understand that he cannot get an appeal to a special medical board except through a tribunal?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether examinations of recruits by the medical boards have frequently been made at the rate of thirty per hour, which may account for the number of men in the Army who have been found physically unfit; whether instructions have been or will be given that all examinations under the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act, 1917, shall be careful and thorough; and whether, in order to fix responsibility for blunders, he will order that the medical classification card shall bear the name of the examining doctor or doctors?

I am not aware of any instance in which recruits have been examined at the rate mentioned. If my hon. Friend will provide me with the facts of one of the frequent instances I shall cause inquiries to be made. If my hon. Friend will refer to the copy of the Army Council Instruction dealing with the matter, he will see that express instructions have been issued that examinations under the Review of Exceptions Act should be most careful. The classification certificate is signed by the president of the board.

Medical Board (Leeds)

asked whether the special medical board at Leeds deals with cases arising in Manchester under the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act, 1917; and whether the expenses of the man attending such appeal board are paid by the War Office?

The special recruiting medical board at Leeds deals with cases of disputed medical classification of men resident in the North of England which tribunals recommend should be sent to an Appeal Board. The recommendations of the tribunals are submitted to the War Office, along with the necessary documents in each case. Men sent to the special medical board for examination are provided with travelling warrants and with subsistence if detained overnight.

Recruiting Officer (Lincolnshire)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he has received any complaints in regard to Major Bell, the recruiting officer for the Holland Division of Lincolnshire; whether he is aware that Major Bell, who is also a solicitor, allows his solicitor managing clerk to appear for persons applying for exemption at the urban and rural and also at the Grantham tribunals, Major Bell having himself acted as clerk to the rural tribunal on more than one occasion when his clerk was applying for exemptions for clients; and what steps he proposes to take in the matter?

No complaints have been received with regard to the matters referred to in my right hon. Friend's question, but I am having inquiries made into this case, and will communicate the result of the inquiries to my right hon. Friend in due course.

Allied Subjects

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he will introduce into the Military Service (Conventions with Allied States) Bill a provision that all aliens coming within its operation shall be offered a free passage to their own country?

It is not proposed to introduce into the Military Service (Conventions with Allied States) Bill any provision of the nature suggested by my hon. Friend in this question, as this. matter is one which can more conveniently be dealt with in the conventions which it, is proposed to make with the Allied States. I must also remind my hon. Friend that the majority of the aliens who will be. affected by the Military Service (Conventions with Allied States) Bill are absentees from military service in their own country, and it is not considered that the expense of returning these men to their own country to fulfil their military obligations in that country should necessarily fall upon the country in which they are for the time being resident.

Police Officers

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the number of men of military age now serving in the Metropolitan Police Force and other police forces, and that most of these men are desirious of doing their duty, but are not allowed to serve in the Army; whether he is aware that, owing to Home Office action, to the policy of chief constables, and to standing joint and watch committees, these men, whose work at home might be taken by older men or special constables, are not released; and what steps he proposes to take to enable these thousands of men to take their places beside our soldiers in the Army?

As the hon. Member is doubtless aware, a considerable number of constables have been released for service with the Forces, and, in pursuance of the War Cabinet decision in the beginning of February, those fit for general service under the age of twenty-three were made available for service. A further release of constables has just been arranged. It is hoped that, as men in lower categories who have become unfit for service overseas Can be released, it will be possible to obtain still more constables for service in the Army without endangering public safety. I must remind the hon. Member in this connection that the responsibilities placed upon the police force are greatly increased during wartime.

Will the hon. Member say about how many men are expected to be available for the Army owing to the recent Orders of the War Cabinet?

"New Europe" (Editor)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the Editor of the "New Europe" was served with a calling-up notice on 18th November, 1916, and that on 1st December, 1916, this calling-up notice was cancelled; whether subsequently this man joined the Royal Army Medical Corps; whether he is still serving in the Army; if not, why not, seeing that this man has been before a tribunal which decided that he ought to serve; why was this man's calling-up notice cancelled on 1st December last, and by whom; and whether it is a common practice for the War Office to cancel calling-up notices in cases decided by tribunals?

The reply to the first three questions of the hon. Member is in the affirmative. The gentleman who was the Editor of "New Europe" is still serving in the Army. The calling-up notice was cancelled on 1st December, 1916, on the instructions of the then Secretary of State for War, as inquiries were not completed respecting this man's position. It is not the common practice for the War Office to cancel calling-up notices in cases decided by tribunals, though a calling-up notice for a particular date may be cancelled pending inquiries as to the best utilisation of the man's services in the Army and another calling-up notice subsequently issued.

My hon. Friend should have asked me that on the question. I cannot tell him now.

Is not special provision being made to enable jingo editors to escape military service?

Mr. KING rose—

Unfit Men (Release)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether there is a large number of men in the Army unfit for military duty but capable of following employment in essential industries depleted by labour; whether he is aware that firms doing Government work, and crippled for want of workers, are denied the services of such men, except substitutes be provided, on the ground that such help would be a reinforcement of their present staffs; and, seeing that it is not in the national interest that men should be maintained in idleness in the Army at the public expense when employers, including Government contractors, are needing their labour, whether the Government will immediately release for work of national importance, and without demanding substitutes, such men as the Army cannot use?

It is inevitable that there should be a certain number of men on the books of the Army awaiting discharge. In order to avoid scandals of men being discharged without either pension or money to which they may be entitled, three weeks elapse between the date of approval of discharge and the actual discharge. There are, further, always a certain number of men awaiting medical boards. Whether these men are capable of being employed in essential industries is not known.

Will the hon. Gentleman see that in these cases when situations are available the discharge will be accelerated?

Coal Supplies

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Hammersmith Borough Council have been informed by his Department that local authorities should buy and store coke for distribution in the winter; and, if so, will he now extend the same instruction to local authorities in regard to coal?

It is the fact that the Hammersmith Borough Council are, with the approval of the Controller of Coal Mines, undertaking arrangements for the distribution of coke during the winter. As regards the supply and distribution of coal, I indicated in my reply to a question asked by the hon. Member for the West Newington Division on the 19th April the steps that have been taken to ensure supplies from the colliery districts normally supplying London, and as the position still gives cause for apprehension the Controller of Coal Mines is making arrangements for additional supplies from other districts. As I stated on the 16th May, proposals for dealing with the problem of distribution during the coming winter are receiving the Controller's careful consideration, but it is not possible at present to say definitely how far or in what directions it may be necessary to invoke the assistance of the local authorities.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether it is not a fact that the Coal Retail Prices Committee, in their Report in 1915, unanimously recommended the consideration of the Government to asking the London County Council and the other public authorities to sell coal, and can he say why, if the Hammersmith Borough Council is to be allowed to store coke, they should not be allowed to store coal?

The hon. Member is quite right with respect to the recommendation to which he refers, and I have stated nothing which in any way is out of harmony with that recommendation. The whole matter is receiving the very careful consideration of the Coal Controller, and if he subsequently finds that public authorities are the best means of securing better distribution he will have no hesitation in availing himself of their services.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the statement that coal may have to be rationed for London next winter, he has yet received from the Coal Controller any proposals regarding coal stocks and distribution for the coming winter in London; whether he proposes to call any conference of local authorities on the matter; and, if so, when?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave to-day to a question asked by the hon. Member for the Dartford Division.

Is the hon. Member aware that this question will be a very urgent one in the coming winter, and as I believe the Board of Trade have urged upon public authorities in London the necessity of having stocks for public purposes, does he not think it is necessary that there should be some kind of stock for small consumers during the coming winter?

I am aware of the urgency of the matter, and I have given the House repeated assurances that the Coal Controller is fully seised of the necessity for making arrangements for equitable distribution during the coming winter. I need hardly assure my hon. Friend that I am painfully aware of the disabilities which the poorer classes have suffered during the past winter, and I will co-operate with the Coal Controller to see, as far as practicable, what can be done in regard to this matter in the coming winter.

Is he not aware that if you have to work through the local authorities in London it will take some time in order to get a supply, and does he not think it is urgent that something should be done at once?

Enemy Businesses

asked the President of the Board of Trade if it is intended to amend the Trading with the Enemy Acts, so as to preclude firms or companies of British constitution from trading under names which closely identify them with firms of enemy origin; if he is aware that firms so trading in this country are maintaining the goodwill of enemy firms; and if he is aware that the goodwill of the German firm of Bluthner and Company, piano manufacturers, Leipzig, is being so maintained in this country by a British - constituted limited company, Bluthner and Company, Limited, Wigmore Street, W.?

I doubt the expediency of legislation of the nature suggested by the right hon. Gentleman. I am disposed to think that there may be some advantage in the trade being carried on under a name which indicates the origin of the goods sold.

British Trade Corporation

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the meeting of bankers held at the Board of Trade in reference to the British Trade Corporation, which was unanimous in favour of the scheme, had before them the terms of the charter and the deed of settlement; and can he undertake that before the Debate on the subject is again resumed the evidence taken before Lord Faring-don's Committee will be available to Members?

The charter and the deed of settlement had not been published as a Parliamentary Paper at the time of the meeting referred to, and I am not aware how many of those present may have seen the documents privately. As regards the second part of the question, the witnesses who appeared before the Financial Facilities Committee received assurances that their evidence would be treated as confidential, and in those circumstances I regret that I cannot give the undertaking asked for.

Are we to understand that the opinion of the bankers was taken at this meeting with the Board of Trade, and that the deed of settlement and the charter were not disclosed?

I am not in possession of the necessary information, and I am not able to say how many of these gentlemen may have seen these documents privately.

Shops (Early Closing)

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether any exception was made by his Department in dealing with the Shops Act administration whereby holiday resorts with only seasonal trade were allowed exemptions on certain conditions and in certain circumstances; and, if so, can he now adopt the same line of action on the subject of early closing of shops?

My hon. and learned Friend probably has in view the special provisions as to holiday resorts contained in the Shops Act, which, however, do not depend for their operation on any administrative action by my Department. The answer to the first part of the question is, therefore, in the negative. As regards the last part of the question, I am not satisfied that there is a case for exceptional treatment in the areas referred to.

Packing Cases (Manufacture)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if, in reference to the recent Order prohibiting the manufacture and use of packing cases, he is aware that certain cotton goods of the value of 6d. per yard and upwards are allowed to be packed in cases; and if, having regard to this fact, the request which has been made by the Belfast Chamber of Commerce that bleached linens, lawns, and damasks, which are of much greater value, should be treated on an equal footing with the less valuable cotton fabrics will be acceded to?

I am in communication with the Belfast Chamber of Commerce on this question.

Army Promotions

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he can give any information regarding the Report of the Committee appointed to inquire into the question of promotion under the chairmanship of the right hon. Member for Dundee?

I am afraid I can add nothing at present to the answer given on the 22nd instant to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Melton.

Royal Proclamations

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that the word "Empire" is inapplicable to the conditions under which the Dominions remain in relation with this country and that General Smuts has proposed the term "Commonwealth" instead, he will state definitely what warrant there is for the use of the word Empire in Royal Proclamations and in official Papers; and whether, in view of the fact that the word must either be used in a sense not usually understood or be regarded as conveying unwarranted implications, he will advise the discontinuance of this word?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. The answer to both parts of this question is in the negative.

As this involves a very grave constitutional matter, I wish to call attention to the fact that the King in a recent communication to the President of the French Republic used the words "My Empire," and after the holidays I will, within the limits allowed by this House, protest against a usurpation which is not in any way justified.

Disabled Army Officers (Employment)

asked whether, in the event of vacancies occurring in the Civil Service owing to the combing-out process which is now in contemplation, priority will be given to officers of His Majesty's Forces who have been discharged as disabled on the ground of wounds or sickness?

Claims for civil employment in Government service made by officers invalided out of His Majesty's Forces will, of course, receive favourable consideration when vacancies are being filled.

Naval and Military Pensions and Grants

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware of the delay in Manchester in the payment of new cases of dependants' allowances due to the shortage of women investigators; and whether he will now cause additional appointments of women investigators to be made, so that the present delays and consequent hardships on dependants may be avoided?

Difficulty has been experienced in obtaining suitable women candidates for the position of investigator, but in view of the continued pressure in Manchester arrangements have been made to give relief by the employment of Customs and Excise officers on the work.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many poor people have to wait as long as twelve and fifteen months before they can get any allowance granted to them even after the papers have been filled up? In Manchester I know of cases personally myself which I have dealt with locally in which there has been a delay of fifteen months. Imagine poor people having to wait that time. It is ridiculous!

Cromarty Camp

asked whether twenty-five of the huts in the Cromarty Military Camp are being used for cases of venereal disease; whether all the huts, 101 in number, are quite close to each other, so that complete isolation is difficult or impossible; and whether the taking over of the huts for this purpose has led to an overcrowding of the remaining huts?

No, Sir. The scheme has been abandoned and other arrangements will be made.

Will the hon. Gentleman give an assurance on the part of the War Office that nothing of the sort will be done in future with regard to the treament of venereal disease?

Army Enlistments

asked the number of men enlisted during the present War, separately from England, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales, and give the proportion from each according to population?

I think my hon. Friend will realise that this information cannot be made public without detriment; to the interests of the country.

Palestine Force (Leave)

asked whether it would be possible to grant home leave to those men of the regiments recently engaged in the battles in Palestine who were also present with their regiments during the operations on the Gallipoli Peninsula?

I am afraid I can only repeat what I have explained before, that the privilege of leave rests with the discretion of the Commander-in-Chief of the Force concerned. All that is possible is done to grant it, but the privilege is dependent on the military exigencies of the moment and the availability of transport. I think that I recognise the gallant regiments that my hon. and gallant Friend has in view, and I will draw the attention of the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief to their special claims.

Russia

asked. the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any statement will be submitted to this House indicating the purpose of Lord Milner's mission to Russia, the steps taken, and the nature of the Report he brought back whether Lord Milner was furnished with sums of money, or provided with credit, for the purposes of his propaganda and, if so, whether there is any record of the expenses of the mission?

In answer to the question, I have to state that there is no intention of taking the course proposed.

May I ask this straight question: Did Lord Milner go to Russia with the definite mission of propping up by every means in his power the old regime of Tsardom?

As the hon. Member is always straight, I will give him a straight answer: Lord Milner went for no such purpose.

Business of the House

Will the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House state what business will be taken on our reassembling after the holidays, and is he in a position to say whether any statement will be made with regard to the Irish Convention?

In regard to the first part of the right hon. Gentleman's question, the course of business will be:

Tuesday, Supply; and I would rather wait till later in the day to state what will be the subject.

Wednesday and Thursday, we propose to proceed with the Representation of the People Bill.

In regard to the latter part of the right hon. Gentleman's question, the Prime Minister is at present engaged in the Cabinet, and it will not be possible to make any statement about Ireland. But I hope he may be able to come here later in the clay and tell the House why it is impossible to do so

Can the right hon. Gentleman state when the further stage of the Corn Production Bill will be taken?

When will the Military Service (Conventions with Allied States) Bill be taken, and do the Government mean to press it?

Can the right hon. Gentleman make any statement about the Munitions of War Bill, and when it will be taken?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say anything about the Criminal Law Amendment Bill?

I think the hon. Member must wait until after the reassembling of the House. It will not be taken in the first week.

Has the right hon. Gentleman any intelligence about the Enemy Princes or Traitors Bill?

I hope to have intelligence, as the hon. Member says, very shortly after we reassemble. The hon. Member knows the position. A Committee was appointed in the House of Lords to undertake to report on the subject quickly, and my Noble Friend the Leader of the other House gave an undertaking on behalf of the Government that the Bill would be proceeded with without delay.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the Report of the House of Lords Committee was issued yesterday, and that it recommends some very vital alterations which will not be pleasing to the hon. Member who introduced this question; and may I ask what action the Government proposes to take in this great emergency?

I will leave the House, in the first instance, to itself deal with the great emergency.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that nothing more than Supply will be put down on the first day of our reassembly, and that no small Bills will be taken?

Motion for Adjournment

British Prisoners of War

I beg to move, "That this House do now adjourn till Tuesday, the 5th June."

I want to raise the question of military and civilian prisoners of war, especially with regard to British prisoners on the Eastern front. The House is aware that for some weeks past a considerable number of our men, including men of the naval divisions, who were taken prisoners in the early part of the War, after Mons, have been sent by the Germans to the Russian border, where they are undergoing very severe hardships indeed. We are told that a certain number of German prisoners on our front in France, who are sent to work on the roads, have suffered from the shell-fire of their own countrymen. I am quite sure that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary for War will be able to give us an assurance to the effect that these German prisoners have been in no case put in the same position on our front as British prisoners have been placed in by the Germans on the Eastern front. Though these German prisoners on our front may have been caught by shell-fire from their own countrymen, still they are not subjected to any of the cruelties under which British prisoners on the East front have been suffering. I want the House to realise that our fellow-countrymen in the hands of the Germans have been prisoners for over two years, and are still suffering very grave hardships. From communications I have received I am told that they have got to be up very early in the morning. A letter dated March last makes the statement that the British prisoners, early in the morning, have to set out in snow knee deep on a march of four miles, and they are at work for nine or ten hours under shell-fire and gas-shells. They have to march back the four miles, and all the food they get in that long day of hardship, exposure, and heavy work is two meals a day. A letter from an officer states that when they return a bowl of thin soup and black bread is all they get after a hard day's work. I received a letter from a man a few days ago, stating that the temperature was so low that the ground in his tent was frozen hard, and that the snow was knee deep. At 4.30 in the morning they are given watery coffee, and, when they get back in the evening, watery soup. I have several letters of that kind.

It is perfectly clear that the most ferocious cruelty is being inflicted on these men, and the only excuse put forward by the Germans is, of course, that some of their own men who are our prisoners have been caught by some of the German shell fire. I want an assurance that it will be made perfectly clear that steps have been taken to get these British prisoners back and away from this cruelty on the part of the Germans. It is not quite clear as between my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary and Lord Newton how the position stands. On the 17th May I asked a question, and the reply was that a note had been received from the German Government from which it would appear that an agreement, had been reached for the withdrawal in occupied Russian territory, of British prisoners of war and that they were to be sent back into Prussian territory. I asked a supplementary question, and the hon. Gentleman who replied (Mr. Hope) stated that letters had been received and that "There was good reason to believe that probably by now they have been withdrawn; if not, further steps will be taken." That was a satisfactory statement; but four days later, in the House of Lords, Lord Newton, my hon. Friend's chief, made a statement far from satisfactory. He said that the British authorities were asking for an assurance that the men would be sent back to Germany, and he added that up to now no reply had been received. Therefore we are told by the hon. Gentleman here that they were probably to be withdrawn and sent back, while four days later, in the other House, the statement was made by Lord Newton that no reply had been made by the Germans. Lord Newton went on to say that every effort was to be made, and, if it appeared that the reply, when it came, was of a negative kind, and that British prisoners were still in the same position, he hoped the War Cabinet would not hesitate to take action of a drastic character.

12.0 M.

We are very glad to hear from Lord Newton that the War Cabinet is going to take drastic action. Perhaps the Noble Lord will forgive me for saying that there is a very uncomfortable feeling in the country that the interests of our prisoners have not been properly looked after by Lord Newton and his Department. This feeling, which is a growing one, may lead to very strong dissatisfaction with the Government, and, what is still worse, dissatisfaction with the progress of the War. Everybody knows I am a keen suppoter of the War, and will support the Government up to the hilt if they will carry the War to a successful issue. But these poor men must be looked after, and we must have something more than pious opinions from Lord Newton, who has no authority to speak on behalf of the War Cabinet. I hope my hon. Friend (Mr. Hope) will forgive me, but I do not speak adversely in regard to him personally. I think we should have this question in charge of some officer on the Government of higher position than Lord Newton, who, I understand, is merely Deputy-Sub-Under-Secretary of the Foreign Office, while my hon. Friend here is his Deputy-Sub. I would be quite satisfied if they gave my hon. Friend here the position and authority. There should be somebody responsible to this House in this matter. The same difficulty arises with regard to the civilian prisoners at Ruhleben which was raised seven weeks ago by the Noble Lord the Member for Nottingham, Lord H. Cavendish-Bentinck. The hon. Member for Wellington (Colonel Bowles) voiced the opinion of the House when he said that the speech in reply of that subject was quite unsatisfactory. The civilian prisoners at Ruhleben are people who have done no harm. It will surprise many to learn that of the 3,500 there over 2,000 are men of the Naval Marines, the very flower of the English working classes. All that those men's relatives have is an allowance of 20s. per week to the wives from a War Risks Association at Lloyd's. I think that is correct. Those men deserve the protection of this House. Englishmen are constantly being caught and sent to Ruhleben. A well-known Anglo-Dutch artist coming back from Holland a few months ago and a man who had joined our country many years ago was taken to Zeebrugge and sent to Ruhleben. Many more men are being sent from day to day to what I cannot but describe as the pestilent camp in Ruhleben. I am glad that the Noble Lord is at last beginning to realise that as the War is coming to its inevitable conclusion, as we hope, the Germans are getting more ferocious in regard to the treatment of their prisoners. These men must be protected.What is the objection to exchanging these prisoners? Arrangements had been made for men over forty-five to be exchanged, but it is now the Admiralty which is objecting. A neutral ship of the Zealand Line would not be allowed to take these men across the North Sea once a week, bring them from this country to Holland and our prisoners back. Why is not that taken advantage of? It is simply because the Admiralty has got on its high horse and objects, as I understand, to dictation from the House of Commons and of what the House of Commons wishes and desires that advantage should be taken of this ship. The Admiralty will not permit it, but I must say I am not too proud to take advantage of it. There are all sorts of difficulties and all sorts of excuses both at the Admiralty and the War Office. They are the servants of the House of Commons. It is very difficult to have our wishes and desires carried out at present, but as soon as the War is over we shall know who is master and we will see that those men who have disobeyed the views of the House of Commons shall be called to account. When I spoke last on this subject my hon. Friend refused, I am quite sure not on his own account, to have a census taken of German prisoners in England as to whether they wish to go back to Germany or not. The excuse is that there are so many more Germans here than in Ruhleben and that we should be giving them something like a division of able-bodied men. I do not believe a word of it,

The hon. Member says that to take a census would be unkind to the German prisoners because we might not be able to send them back. The Germans have asked the same unkind question, not that I think it is unkind, and I am convinced, and those acquainted with the subject agree with me, that very many of the prisoners would not want to go back, yet the War Office or somebody behind my hon. Friend will not allow the census to be taken because they know the case they make would break down and the whole objections to the exchange would be swept away. There might be a majority wanting to go back, but a great many would not. If hon. Members would take the trouble to read through the dispatches between England and Germany during the last two years they would see that there has been block after block and those blocks have been put on, not by the German Government, but by the English Government. This is the only place to which the men can appeal to have something done in order that their misery shall be put an end to. They have done no harm to the country, but good. They have been the outposts, of commerce and civilisation. I go further than appeal to my hon. Friends, and I say that the intention of the people of this country is that some steps shall be taken, and promptly and definitely, in this matter. I am glad to see the Prime Minister come in: he is in the position in which he can sit on the head of the Admiralty and can tell my hon. Friend that his wishes must be carried out. He has entered the House at the psychical moment. We all know how humane and kind he is, and I would ask him to give half an hour of his time to see the War Office, and if something cannot be done to enable our civilian prisoners in Ruhleben to be released, and to enable our military prisoners on the Russian front, who are being ferociously treated, as we know they are—and as our enemies see the end approaching they are getting more ferocious—to be sent back.

My hon. Friend who has just spoken makes, I think, rather a large assumption when he claims to have received the support of the House when he last raised this question. Doubtless there are hon. Members who agree with him, but I think perhaps the hon Member's assumption is rather beyond the mark.

My hon. Friend had the opportunity of raising the matter on the Vote of Credit.

If an hon. Member has a large body of opinion behind him, he can always get in. However, I do not want to lay too much stress upon that point or to treat the matter in a flippant spirit, for it is a very serious matter. On the question of Ruhleben, which my hon. Friend has raised, I am afraid that the main issue remains unchanged. I must repeat what I said on the last occasion, that if it were possible to have a man-for-man exchange there would be no difficulty on this side. The difficulty comes entirely from the enemy, who have refused this ever since the autumn of 1914, when, I quite admit, it might have been arranged. Now the only proposition is that we should send back the whole of our German civilian prisoners here for the whole of the prisoners in Germany. As I have said before, in such an exchange we stand to gain one man for ten sent out. My hon. Friend says that that estimate is far too high. Let me make a very large reduction. Let me take it that instead of ten to one the proportion would be five to one, and that we should send 15,000 prisoners and get back 3,000, which would mean a balance of 12,000 against us—that is to say, the man-power of an Infantry division. Even if it were proved, as it can be proved, that the proportion would be as low as that, I am afraid I can give my hon. Friend no hope that the Government will agree to a proposal of that kind. I wish to say that that is not the decision of Lord Newton. It is not the decision of the War Office alone, or of any officer of the War Office alone. It is a very grave decision, taken after full discussion with and the full concurrence of the military authorities, and of General Niville when he was over here. It is the decision of the War Cabinet. I am afraid that I can hold out no hope that the Government will go back on it. I quite admit that it is a very cruel decision, like so many decisions that have to be taken in war. To enforce Conscription is a cruel decision. To give the order for a great offensive is a cruel decision. This is no hole-and-corner decision, but is the deliberate and considered decision of the Government under all the circumstances of the time and in view of the fact of the War. This is very largely a war of attrition, and the Government have definitely made up their minds that they cannot, under this proposal, give the enemy a large balance of man-power.

Having, I am afraid, been able to give my hon. Friend no satisfaction on the main issue which he has raised, I can, I am glad to say, give him some comfort on the minor points. He raised, as I think my hon. Friend opposite, or he, raised on the last occasion, the question of recovering the expenses from prisoners or their relatives for special medical treatment. It has been decided—and the Treasury have agreed—that these expenses will not be pressed for. As to the separation allowances for the mercantile marine prisoners of war in Germany, this is the first time the matter has been brought to my notice. I take it it is really a question for the Board of Trade. If my hon. Friend can give me some particulars of the cases, I will see that they are brought to the notice of the Board of Trade, or any other Department concerned. Primâ facie, there is, at any rate, a case for sympathetic consideration. As to the existing agreements in relation to men over forty-five, the repatriation of invalids and those who are incapable of further service, the last time this matter was raised I had to say that these agreements were in abeyance, largely, if not entirely, because of the difficulties of transport and the dangerous condition of the North Sea. Those difficulties have, of course, not ceased, and the Admiralty have been in a very difficult position. After all, it is not unusual that the Admiralty should decline to risk British ships under present circumstances. It is also not unnatural that they should feel strong repugnance to accepting German dictation as to the exact means by which the prisoners might be sent. Also it is natural that the military authorities should feel repugnance to imposing further congestion on the French railways by sending large numbers of prisoners through France into Switzerland. My Noble Friend (Lord Newton)—to whom my hon. Friend opposite is, I think, less than kind in his speeches—has persistently pressed this matter on the attention of the Admiralty. I am grad to say that a real advance has been made, and, though the greatest reticence is necessary, where questions of transport and shipping are concerned, I can say that arrangements are now being made which will enable us to proceed steadily in the matter.

Well, some credit must be given to my Noble Friend. House of Commons, or no House of Commons, he has worried at this question. There is the question of extending the internment system to civilians. That depends on the answer as to the further extension of the internment system to officers and men and combatant prisoners in Germany. It is something like seven weeks since we made a very definite and sweeping offer to the German Government on that point. So far we have not even had an acknowledgment. We pressed for an answer on the 11th, and also this week. As soon as we get an answer at all favourable we will see what can be done. I can assure my hon. Friend that the other proposal in relation to civilians will at once be pressed. I am afraid, however, I can say no more on that subject than on the last occasion.

As to the question of the employment of prisoners behind the enemy lines, I do not think there is any difference between what my Noble Friend said and what I said. The facts are these: We had, as my Noble Friend stated in another place, a large number of German prisoners working in France well behind the lines. They were not in the firing zone in any ordinary acceptance of the word, but, unfortunately, with the enormous range of modern artillery, they were exposed to the chance of an odd long range shell, and I believe some very small number—I am not sure whether three or four—were hit. The Germans took this matter up, as I think I can show, not really honestly, but as an excuse for actions which they had already committed themselves, and they said, "We will send British prisoners to occupied territory in Russia to work up close against the firing zone if you do not withdraw your prisoners thirty kilometres behind the lines." We consulted with the French authorities on this matter, and in the end we did agree, with the concurrence of the French authorities, to withdraw the prisoners thirty kilometres behind the line. The Germans in their first Note had said if we did this they would not keep prisoners in the firing zone in Russia, or I think anywhere else by implication. Now we have complied with their terms. We have notified them accordingly, and that is what I meant when I said we had good reason to believe they had by now been withdrawn, because there was no doubt this was a leverage to press upon the Allies the withdrawing of German prisoners. Now we have asked twice whether this has been done, and so far we have not got a definite assurance of that fact.

If it has not been done, of course a very serious situation will arise, as my Noble Friend said in sketching the possibility of some steps being taken. As to that, I can only say one of two things. I think it is right to say that reprisals which involve suffering can only be justified if there is a reasonable assurance that they will be effective, because you are not justified on any ground in inflicting suffering for its own sake. The only excuse is if you can get better terms from the enemy. That is one of the difficulties the Government has been under in this matter of reprisals, and, in the second place, you have to think of your Allies as well. The fact of our having more than double the number of combatant prisoners that the Germans have of ours does not end the matter from this point of view. We have also to consider the French and Russian prisoners in the enemy's hands and also the hold they have of Poland, Courland, Lille, and other places. Therefore the matter has not been easy; but still I can assure my hon. Friend that the Government have constantly considered this matter and sometimes action has been taken. Of course, it is not for me to say what will be done if the Germans insist on this treatment of our prisoners in Russia, but obviously the matter must come up again, and I feel I can say that the Government will not shrink from drastic action if they have a reasonable assurance that it really will have the effect of helping our unfortunate prisoners.

The House is now enjoying the advantage of the smallest supply of the rarest of all commodities, the Prime Minister's time, and in these days of economy, I suggest we ought not to consume it wastefully. Therefore, I would venture to take this opportunity of asking him three or four questions in order that he may have an opportunity, if he will be good enough, of giving us some information on the subjects before we adjourn. The Leader of the House, on his behalf at Question Time, told us that the Prime Minister hoped to attend the House later to make some statement about the progress of arrangements for the Convention in Ireland, or, at any rate, to explain why, in the alternative, he could make no statement. In the second place, since the Debate which took place on the Adjournment of the House a week ago on the labour situation, events of great importance have happened. The next morning the Government arrested the ringleaders. They have been prosecuted and released after signing an undertaking, and this seems to afford a great opportunity to the Government for making a fresh start, and for seeing if there is any process by which complete information as to the root of the trouble may be made available, and to see if something cannot be done, not merely to cure individual strikes and to send men back to their work, but to prevent strikes in future by removing the root cause of the unrest. Lastly, I need not remind the Prime Minister that the House would always be glad of information, whenever he is in a position to give it, on the two subjects which seem to affect us most vitally at the present moment-the progress made in dealing with the enemy submarines, and the matter of the organisation, distribution, and conservation of the Government food supplies. If the Prime Minister could give us any information on these subjects, I am sure we should all be grateful.

I am obliged to my right hon. Friend for affording me the opportunity thus early of giving such information as I am in a position to afford on the three or four very important questions he has raised in the course of his brief and comprehensive survey of the situation at home and abroad—on sea and land.

First of all, with regard to the question of the Irish Convention, I am afraid I am not in a position to-day to give a definite reply to the House of Commons as to the composition of the Convention; but I can assure hon. and right hon. Members the Government have lost no time in getting into touch with the various parties, with a view to securing a basis of representation which will carry out the outline of the Government's scheme as explained to the House last Monday in the course of the discussion. It is very important that the representation should be of a character to command the confidence of the people of Ireland. It is not an easy matter. There are a good many considerations that have got to be taken into account. A good many interests have to be considered, and it is very desirable that the Convention, when it is summoned, should be of a character that will make the people of Ireland feel that we have made a sincere and genuine effort to secure a real representation of all the views and aspects of the question.

I had some hope that I might have been able to do it to-day, but it would be a great mistake if, in order to be able to make an announcement to-day, we were to take unnecessary risks, and by that means alienate important bodies of opinion in Ireland. For that reason we have come to the conclusion that it is better that no statement should be made to-day, as the negotiations are not completed. I sincerely trust that there will be no prolonged delay in making the necessary announcement—in fact, delay would be fatal. It would only create unnecessary suspicion and distrust and tend to give the impression that the British Government do not mean business. Therefore, I would appeal to all sections of opinion in Ireland rather to assist the Government in coming to a speedy decision. For that reason I very much regret that important leaders of Irish opinion have been compelled, for very important reasons, to leave England and return to Ireland. With regard to the hon. and learned Member for Waterford (Mr. Redmond), we know the reason why he has been compelled to go to Ireland. His health happily has been restored, but he requires rest and recuperation. I would again make an appeal to Irish leaders to do their best to assist the Government to come to a speedy decision on the various questions which have to be decided, otherwise, whatever happens, I have not the least doubt it would throw great blame upon whoever will be responsible for the delay. That is all I wish to say upon that particular subject.

With regard to the labour situation, I quite agree with my right hon. Friend that the termination of the strike affords a very good opportunity for reviewing the whole of the labour position. My right hon. Friend asked me one or two questions about the labour situation. I trust that as far as the particular dispute which occasioned that strike is concerned it has been happily terminated, but I agree that there is a good deal of matter for further investigation. There has been great unrest in some quarters. The Government have their views as to how that has been fostered, but at the same time there are some genuine grievances which have assisted the designs of those who have got ulterior motives which have no special reference to the labour situation, and therefore the Government have decided to appoint a Commission of Inquiry into the industrial unrest, to inquire and report upon the operation of all the war emergency legislation of the Government and its administration in regard to labour, and to make recommendations which will tend to minimise industrial unrest, especially in the shipbuilding and engineering trades, during the continuation of the War. It is proposed to divide the country into something like seven areas, and to appoint separate Commissions to investigate the causes of unrest in each of those various areas. An effort will be made to secure the services of a labour representative and of an employer, with an impartial chairman in each case. We thought it was better to divide the country into seven areas, inasmuch as it would be impossible for any Commission to cover the whole ground in anything like reasonable time; and to save time it has been decided to divide the country into seven areas to investigate the industrial unrest in each of those areas, with a view to advising the Government whether it is desirable to make any alterations either from the administrative point of view or to recommend legislative changes in this House. That is the answer to the second question put to me by my right hon. Friend.

Would the right hon. Gentleman mind saying whether the Government intend to postpone the further consideration of the Munitions Bill until this Commission has reported?

I could not at the present stage, at any rate, promise that, because it has reference to the very urgent demand for the reorganisation of labour, which has a bearing upon the very next problem with which I am going to deal, namely, the submarine problem and shipbuilding. It would be very dangerous to postpone a scheme to assist shipbuilding—the building of the mercantile marine, and also ships for the Navy for the protection of the mercantile marine. This has a practical bearing on the food supply, and I do not think it would be possible to postpone all that until we have had a Commission of Inquiry to investigate labour unrest. That would be a very dangerous promise for me to make.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether a general agreement has been come to with the trade unions with regard to Amendments to the Munitions Bill?

I am sorry I am not in a position to say that at the present moment. Negotiations are proceeding, and I think, on the whole, proceeding quite favourably and in a very good spirit—in a spirit of conciliation, and with a real attempt on both sides to arrive at a working practical compromise.

It will take some time. I have actually the names here, but I cannot give them, because I have not got their assent. We have to write to them. Some of them might refuse, and time always elapses in finding substitutes. I assure the hon. Gentleman that no time will be lost, because I think it is important that this investigation should proceed immediately.

I now come to another important question, put to me with regard to the progress which we are making in dealing with the submarine menace. Here it is muchmore difficult for me to give a public answer—and I am sure my right hon. Friend would be the last person to ask me to give any information which would be of the slightest use to the enemies of this country—and it is very difficult to give information, without to a certain extent perhaps revealing things which we had better keep to ourselves.

All I can say generally is this: We are making substantial progress. During the last three weeks or a month we have dealt more effective blows at the submarines than during any corresponding period of the War, and that is true of this week as well as of the preceding week. There is no doubt at all that that fact has been made manifest in the considerable reduction in our shipping losses. It is true that we are not through the month of May, but if the ratio of losses during the last twenty-five days should not be exceeded, then the reduction upon the April figures will be very considerable indeed. There does not seem to me to be any reason to anticipate any worse figures in the coming few days, but one does not like to predict. The arrangements that are made for dealing with submarines are increasingly efficient.

We owe a very considerable debt of gratitude to the great American people for the effective assistance they are rendering us. It is not merely in the craft which they have placed at our disposal, but now that the American nation is in the War it is easier to make arrangements for the protection of our mercantile fleet than before that event took place. Therefore, I think that the nation has very good reason to congratulate itself upon the substantial improvement, and I may say at once the unexpectedly early improvement, which has taken place in dealing with the great submarine menace. The month of May has been a considerable improvement not merely upon the figures of April, but it has been a considerable improvement upon the anticipations of the Admiralty as to what would occur in the month of May.

My right hon. Friend has asked me question with regard to food supplies. This is intimately associated with the last problem with which I have been dealing—that of the submarines. There is a distinct improvement in our food prospects as the result of the improvement in the sub marine position. It is very difficult to give a favourable answer which would not be mischievous. That is the trouble about food supplies. If I say that there is no danger of starvation, well, then people will be apt to say, "What is the good of our cutting up all our grass lands and making special efforts to plough and to sow?" And others will say, "Now, what is the good of our rationing ourselves?" That is not the case. People really must not rush from one extreme to the other, and one must appeal to the common sense of the nation.

I say, after taking counsel of all those who advise me and after going into the figures very carefully, that if the nation economises, if the nation is not guilty of waste, if those who have got land available for the production of food make the best use of it, if workmen turn out tractors in order to help us to plough, if the Army help us with all the available men for the purpose of cultivating the land —in fact, if we all behave like reasonable human beings who want to save their country from disaster and from privation and distress, the submarine menace is not one that need cause us any fear that the War is going to be lost for that reason. I use those words, carefully choosing them, and all I can do is to appeal to those who comment upon them, not one lot to seize upon one part of that statement and dwell upon it and exaggerate it, and another lot to seize upon another part of that statement and to exaggerate it. I mean that statement as a whole.

We have heard this morning that the Germans are depending mainly on the U-boat warfare for success in the War. All I can say is that if that is their main hope of success it is doomed to disappointment, and I say that with a full sense of responsibility on my own behalf and on behalf of the Government, after the most careful consideration of the whole of the facts. But that does not mean that people need not economise. That does not mean that farmers need not plough their lands. That does not mean that people who have got fat rich grass lands which could turn out cereals need not do it. It means that if everybody does that then the German hope of triumph in this War, if based on their submarines, is going to be the greatest miscalculation in the whole series of miscalculations of that fated Empire.

That is what I should like to say with regard to that. I would not say so were it not that there is a real danger in quite well-intentioned appeals which are made to the public of creating a false impression as to the situation. I am sure that all you want to do is to tell the people the real facts. I do not think it is necessary to create panic in order to make them do reasonable things, but I do appeal to the Members of this House each in his own constituency, and each in his own way, to make it clear to the public that their co-operation is an essential part of this statement and this policy and of this confidence in the future, and, unless all these elements are introduced well the public can, of course, produce disaster by extravagance. The agrarian population can engineer disaster by refusing to do their share. The workmen can also do the same thing by refusing to produce tractors. But if everybody in the community does his duty patriotically, contributing each in his own way to the common stock, then, I say, that the submarine is not going to defeat us.

I am sure that the House and those outside the House will have heard or will read with gratification the concluding part of my right hon. Friend's speech, and I trust that there will be a wide response to his appeal. I wish I were equally sanguine of his finding his remarks commented upon as a whole and not by the selection of particular passages or suggestions which happen to commend themselves to the text or gospel which particular writers or speakers are concerned to propagate. If he is so fortunate as to find them commented upon as a whole, it will be almost the first time that it has happened to any responsible statesman. I have risen only to say one word upon the early part of my right hon. Friend's speech. I have watched—as, I suppose, most of us have watched—with a good deal of disquietude the perturbations of which we have had so many symptoms in the last few weeks in certain sections of the labour world. It gives cause for anxiety not merely upon the ground that they interfere with the due and steady production of commodities which are absolutely essential for the effective conduct of the War, but because they seem to indicate, on the surface, at any rate, that difficulties may arise which may become increasingly serious in the future relations of labour, not merely to capital, but to its own organisations and to the State.

There is, when we are looking forward—as we must from time to time, turn away our eyes for a moment from the preoccupations of the War to the future which is immediately to follow, and for which we ought now to be making provision—no aspect on the horizon which I can discern or imagine more serious than this particular trouble. I do not want at the moment to say anything in regard to the past, nor indeed in regard to the future, except this: I am extremely glad to hear from my right hon. Friend that the Government are proposing to institute an inquiry, area by area, into all these matters; in particular, so far as they affect the trades of shipbuilding and engineering and the allied and ancillary industries connected with them.

I trust that that inquiry may produce beneficial results. I venture to say that if it is to do so everything depends on three conditions: In the first place, on the personnel engaged in the conduct of the inquiry. I will not press the Government to tell us to-day—my right hon. Friend has given good reasons why they are not in a position to do so—the names of the gentlemen by whom these investigations are to be undertaken, but if they are to produce fruitful results it is absolutely essential that they should be people who understand and who are capable of bringing themselves into personal contact both with the men and with the problems concerned. The second condition, which I think is equally important, is promptitude. It is not a matter which admits of delay, either in the public interest or in the interests of the men themselves. The third condition is that we should try, if we can, first of all by means of this Government inquiry, and all of us in our various degrees and several opportunities, to get below the surface. We are witnessing, I think, one of those stages in the evolution of labour, in its relation not only to the production of wealth but to the whole economy of the State, in regard to which it is all-important that we should take a sympathetic and penetrating view of the forces which are at work. We are so apt—I am making no allegation against anybody; it is a universal tendency—to think in the terms of the nineteenth century, or of the early years of the present century, to regard the economic organisation of the State, as it then developed, as something permanent, as a fixed condition of things which, at any rate during our time, we must regard as part almost, as it were, of the order of Nature. It is very difficult for us, most of us at any rate, to have either the imagination or the sympathy needed in order to envisage these new problems, emerging under new conditions, and calling for new methods of treatment. I venture to make a very strong appeal, not specially to the Government or to the hon. Friends whom I see around me here, but to people outside, to seize this opportunity to bring, if we can, the whole atmosphere of public opinion into an en- lightened and healthy relationship to the future development of these all-important social and industrial problems.

I shall confine the few observations I am about to make to the portion of the Prime Minister's speech which dealt with the coming Irish Convention. I am entirely in agreement with the Prime Minister in thinking that any undue delay might be very perilous, if not disastrous, to the good work which we hope this Convention is about to do. At the same time I must express my strong agreement with another observation of the Prime Minister, which is that next to delay the Convention might be prejudiced by undue haste. Everybody must realise that this Convention has a most momentous and far-reaching work to do. It has to reconcile—I hope it will succeed in reconciling—very ancient divisions of race and creed in Ireland, and of warring political parties. It has also a very important work, the very difficult work, of framing a new Constitution for Ireland; and, above all, it has to be in character so well chosen and so representative of everybody that it will command the confidence of everybody in Ireland who does not mean mischief and wrecking, but does mean peace and reconciliation. I, therefore, cannot personally find the least fault with the action of the Government in not coming to a final conclusion, either as to the size or as to the composition of this Convention, without having thoroughly become acquainted with the feelings of all parties. I, of course, have had to think a good deal over the composition of this Convention, and I am sure it is not so simple a matter as might appear. There are all kinds of questions about such a body. There is the question, first, as to its size. My own opinion is that if you had a very large body it would cease to be a really deliberative body, and, on the other hand, if you had too small a body it would not be able to deal with the subject, which is far more difficult than the mere framing of clauses on agreed principles, which task is to act as a solvent, and I hope a reconciler and pacificator, of warring passions and political views. The Prime Minister has made an appeal to the leaders of all the Irish parties to help the Government and co-operate with the Government in accelerating the nomination and the composition of this Convention. I can assure my right hon. Friend that this message of his will be conveyed not only by the Press, but by myself and other members of the Irish party here to our friends who have been called to Ireland, and I am sure that they will give their fullest and promptest assistance to the Prime Minister in bringing this Convention into being.

Before I sit down I would like to say just one word on a subject which is one which I must bring to the attention of the Prime Minister, though I do not know that I would be justified in asking him for an immediate answer to-day. That is the question of the men who are in gaol in consequence of their share, or alleged share, in the recent rebellion. I am perfectly sure the Prime Minister will approach this question in a broad, generous, and statesmanlike spirit. He will know that after one of these tragic outbursts which occur in all countries under certain conditions, if you want to bring an era of reconciliation and peace, the first thing you have to do is to make a clean slate of the past, and the best way of doing that is to release those who have been involved in the transaction. I do appeal strongly to the Prime Minister. If he will search the precedents of other Governments in other countries, he will find they are all in one way; and if General Smuts is able to come to London to-day and to speak the language of strong patriotism, which he has addressed to the admiration, I am sure, of everyone who has heard him or read his speeches, he is a member of the Ministry who, when the rebellion was over in his own country, opened the door wide to prisoners, and treated those former enemies of the Government with generosity and in a spirit of reconciliation. I may add this observation, I am perfectly sure there is no act the Government could do which would do so much to help to appease the very troubled feelings in Ireland to-day as to release the prisoners. If this act were done by the Government the Convention would open its proceedings in an atmosphere far more favourable and far more helpful than if these prisoners still remained in gaol. It must be remembered that these prisoners, or nearly all of them, have been convicted by exceptional tribunals—military tribunals. I hope that he will take that central fact into his consideration. In face of the action of such tribunals, you cannot help an impression in the popular mind that things might have been different if they had been tried in the ordinary Courts. For these reasons I hope, however strong may have been the decision of these military tribunals as to the guilt of the persons brought before them, that it will be clear to the Prime Minister's mind that these verdicts of the tribunals at a time of great passion might well be revised. I beg him to take it, in face of the verdict of a court-martial, that the guilt of no man is absolutely proved. I think the wisest, the most appeasing, and the most judicious course for the Prime Minister to take would be to make no exceptions but allow all these men out of prison, and in that way to start a new, a brighter era in our history.

Warship Losses (Courts-Martial)

1.0 P.M.

I propose to confine myself entirely to the one subject of which I have given notice, namely, the failure of the Admiralty to hold courts-martial in the loss of a number of His Majesty's warships. This has been the rule, the custom, and the practice of the Navy invariably on every occasion up to the year 1907, and when I say the rule, the practice, and the custom, I am quoting from words which appear in official documents. The subject has not been debated in this House for two years and three months. It was raised by the present Leader of the House on 16th February, 1915. He then said: skill, because they felt so strongly that it was necessary to have that vindication, before they again commanded a ship. The first occasion, and I do not think the Secretary of the Admiralty will deny it, of a break in that practice was in the case of the destroyer His Majesty's ship "Ariel," which was lost on the Malta breakwater on 19th April, 1907. I then made a strong protest in the House of Commons. The same year the Admiralty introduced a Regulation saying that courts-martial were to be governed by rules issued from time to time by the Board of Admiralty. That could not get over the fact that the Navy Discipline Act still exists, and as that is the means by which Parliament governs the Navy, I submit that if the opinion of any three of His Majesty's judges were taken, they would say that the Admiralty would have to come to this House for an Act of Indemnity for having violated the Navy Discipline Act. They cannot by Instructions issued under the King's Regulations upset the Navy Discipline Act. Now the effect of these Regulations, introduced in 1908, was to concentrate and to centralise all power in the hands of the Admiralty; and since the Admiralty se frequently dispensed with the guidance of courts-martial, they were forced to review for themselves all the evidence which bore on the question whether the Admiralty, or the captain, the officers, or the men were guilty in connection with the loss of the ship. That meant that while the Admiralty were supposed to be conducting a war they were immersed in an immense amount of extra administrative work, in which they formerly had the guidance of courts-martial. It did not mean that you relieved your officers, but you put work on very much more important people, the Lords of the Admiralty, who, under the well tried and ancient system, would have had the guidance of the verdict of the court-martial, and the public also would have had the benefit of this authoritative judgment. When the First Lord of the Admiralty complains of the criticisms of the Navy or the Admiralty, he must remember that he and his predecessors have withdrawn from the public, the critics and the Press, the guidance of the verdicts of courts-martial. The right hon. Gentleman will probably contend that we have Courts of Inquiry, but a Court of Inquiry with nobody on oath is a very different thing from a court-martial, as I think he will allow. In the first place, the admiral can choose the officers who constitute a Court of Inquiry, but he cannot choose the officers who constitute the court-martial. He can vary them, if he likes, in the middle of a Court of Inquiry, and any implicated witness can refuse to give evidence or make any statement at a Court of Inquiry. The whole procedure of a Court of Inquiry lends itself to "whitewashing." It is laid down that a Court of Inquiry may be required to examine witnesses without giving any opinion, and the Commander-in-Chief is not even bound to forward the evidence to the Board of Admiralty. These inquiries are held in so little esteem that whenever a bit of iron is lost, like an anchor or a torpedo, a court of inquiry is held. This is the sort of thing that is said by the Admiralty to be sufficient with regard to the loss of His Majesty's Ship Hampshire," with Lord Kitchener on board. That is what I complain of. Obviously, the old practice should be followed and a, court-martial held. The Navy has no confidence in the recommendations of a secret Court of Inquiry, in which nobody is on oath. When this subject was before the House of Commons in February, 1915, the then Attorney-General completely misled the House. His statements were put with even greater strength in the House of Lords by Lord Crewe and Lord Emmott. He led the House of Commons to believe that there was a number of precedents, whereas I say there are no precedents. I will quote from him. He said that the Judge Advocate of the Fleet had made "a most careful historical inquiry" into this question. The First Lord said it was "an exhaustive research." The Attorney-General proceeded to say that "the occasions on which exceptions had been made from the general custom increased in the nineteenth century." He said there were fifteen cases between 1815 and 184]. I say there is not a single precedent in the history of the Navy. When I entered the House of Commons for Maidstone I called for those fifteen precedents between 1815 and 1841 and the names of the ships. I carried out a personal investigation at the Record Office, in the newspapers of the day, and in reference books like the "Naval Chronicle" and Hickman's "Courts Martial," and in every single case, as my right hon. Friend will acknowledge, I proved that a court-martial had taken place except when it was on record that there was not a single survivor. I put the whole fifteen cases into fifteen unstarred questions, imparting the information which the Board of Admiralty accepted in their answer.

Another argument which I noted in our Debate in 1915 was that there was no time to hold courts-martial. That is not the case, and it is not borne out by the evidence of sailors. I contend that they have even more time than they had in the old days, because the ships are much more in harbour. You are holding courts-martial constantly for disciplinary offences. The loss of a warship is a much more important thing than a disciplinary offence. Then there is also the argument I addressed to the House just now, that the Admiralty find time to review all these cases, as necessarily they must do if they do not have the guidance of a court martial. I should say that the Lords of the Admiralty have no time whatever to review these cases if they are really conducting the War. If they are reviewing all cases of lost warships, I should say that is one more explanation as to why the naval side of the War has not been so well conducted as it might have been.

I come to the question whether the procedure is cumbrous. If the procedure is cumbrous, my right hon. Friend knows that every demand he has made in this House for a Bill to rectify anything connected with the Navy has been met and that the Bill has been passed within the limits of an hour or half an hour. He has only to come to Parliament and to ask us to alter the procedure; but I say, for heaven's sake do not alter the principle of holding a court-martial whenever a ship is lost. Then we are told that there is a change of circumstances—that there is the mine and the torpedo. If the mine and the torpedo are new dangers, that is all the more reason for holding a court-martial whenever a ship is lost through a mine or torpedo. We want to know whether, if a ship is lost, she could have been kept afloat longer, or whether other arrangements could be made to avoid the danger. Take, for instance, the case of the ships lost in the Dardanelles. They were only kept afloat for from four to twenty-eight minutes. In the case of the "Cornwallis," at a later date, she was kept afloat by the skilled seamanship of the officers and men for 105 minutes, which ought to have been brought out by my right hon. Friend in his reply about the verdict. In his answer to a question I put three or four days ago he ought to have added that the court- martial said that the officers and men carried out their duties in accordance with the highest traditions of the Service. My object in asking the question was to defend the officers and men. They kept their ship afloat for an hour and three-quarters by better methods. With the new dangers like the mine and the torpedo you cannot have too close an inquiry into the loss of a warship, because we are certain to learn, and the Navy wants to learn how to meet these new dangers. Apart from that, as regards the historical side of the subject, the dangers are no greater than they were in the old days from fire or the lee shore. The fact of a ship catching fire or going on the lee shore often involved acts of God and not the acts of the men. The point is that if you hold a court-martial you do not reflect on the officers and men in the slightest degree. It is now inevitable that the moment the Admiralty state they are going to hold a court-martial, there is a very different state of affairs. Whenever a court-martial is held now it is regarded as a slur and practically an intimation to the members of the court that, in the opinion of the Admiralty, the court should bring in some sort of verdict of guilty, which I think is very undesirable indeed.

The third argument which I noted in the Debates in the House of Lords and in this House, was that the holding of a court-martial makes officers "play for safety." I submit that a court-martial has precisely the opposite effect. Take the courts-martial on Byng and Calder. In both cases a court-martial was held on them, because they did play for safety and both suffered in consequence. Both had their careers broken, and one was shot. The chief charge which has been made, as I gather from all the arguments in the Press, is that as in the case of the "Goeben" and in a number of subsequent failures to bring about decisive results, under the inspiration of not holding courts-martial and under the inspiration of the Board of Admiralty, men have played for safety, whereas if we had held courts-martial I believe those in charge would have played less for safety than they have done under the inspiration of the Board of Admiralty. I suggest to my right hon. Friend that the Admiralty have done this since 1907 and introduced the Regulation in 1907 under a lust for power. Before, with the courts-martial, they could not increase the sentence, they could not reverse the acquittal, and they could only reduce a sentence. If a court-martial is held into the loss of a ship and not merely to try the officers and men, very often it brings in a verdict which is tantamount to guilty against the Admiral or the Admiralty. In the case of the loss of the "Captain," and again in the case of the loss of the destroyer "Cobra," the court-martial brought in a verdict which was practically a verdict of guilty against the Admiralty. I submit that the Admiralty felt that if they were to have a court-martial in the case of the loss of the three ships of the "Cressy" class—which were known to every midshipman throughout the Navy as the live-bait squadron, because everybody was perfectly certain that the squadron would become the victim of submarines, inasmuch as it was cruising about at slow speed and without any destroyers—it was inevitable that the court-martial would have brought in a verdict that the disposition of the ships was unwise and was by order of the Admiralty.

That, from the point of view of the Admiralty, is a very undesirable state of affairs, but from the point of view of the nation and of this House it would have been a very desirable state of affairs. I cannot help drawing attention to the strange trick which has been played on us, that the custom which protected the reputations of officers for skill and courage in the old days under the Government of a personal King should have been departed from so that they have no protection against the Admiralty in days of democracy. I remember reading, either in Macaulay's speeches or essays, that this House has always been generous to profusion where the interests of the Navy are concerned. It could not show that generosity in a way which would be more appreciated by the Navy afloat than by restoring the courts-martial on which its high standard depends and which are the sheet anchor of naval supremacy.

Let me summarise the contentions of those who say that in recent practice the Admiralty has departed far too frequently from the custom and tradition of the Navy in the matter of convening and holding of courts-martial. They do not say that a court-martial has been invariably held in days gone by, because the facts are against them. I observe that my hon. and gallant Friend used the word "invariably." I thought that was a misapprehension on his part, but I gather now that he does contend that it has been the invariable rule in days gone by to hold a court-martial. As far as I have studied the matter the facts are against it. Again, they do not lay it down that there is a definite statutory obligation to hold a court-martial whenever there are survivors, or, if they do, they do not show me where it is but they insist that it has been the established custom and tradition of the Navy so to hold courts-martial, and in support of this contention they quote the Navy Discipline Act, 1866, particularly Section 91, which I will read:

"When any one of Her Majesty's ships shall be wrecked or lost, or destroyed, or taken by the enemy, such ship shall, for the purposes of this Act, be deemed to remain in commission until her crew shall be regularly removed into some other of Her Majesty's ships of war, or until a court-martial shall have been held, pursuant to the custom of the Navy in such cases, to inquire into the cause of the wreck, loss, destruction or capture of the said ship."

They point out that the use of the words, "pursuant to the custom of the Navy in such cases" clearly indicates that Parliament, when it passed that Act, must have assumed that the holding of courts-martial was an established and universal custom. That is the case which is based upon the words which I have quoted in the body of Section 91.

Yes, but I take that for the purpose of the argument as sufficient for the moment. I do not think that the critics generally deny the discretion of the Admiralty in the matter, but they say that in recent years, in the exercise of its lawful discretion, it has dispensed with a court-martial too frequently, and in doing so has departed in practice from the custom and tradition of the Navy, and they think that a change prejudicial to the best interests of the State and of the Service. That is the case generally. It has been suggested to-day, not for the first time, that if there has been a change it has been inspired by a lust for power on the part of the Board of Admiralty; and further, so far as the early part of the War is concerned, by a desire rather to shield itself from blame than to serve the interests of the State. As regards the last criticism, which was made quite explicitly, I give that a most emphatic repudiation. As regards the policy criticised, I do not think it could be better stated than in the reply given on 10th November, 1915, by the then First Lord —the present Foreign Secretary—to a question put by the hon. and gallant Gentleman himself. Let me read it: prima facie case for trying one or more particular individuals on specific charges, and that no one else could possibly be to blame. In that case the senior naval officer would either order a court-martial himself, or, if he could not do so, represent the facts to the Admiralty who would, if they agreed with the conclusions arrived at, arrange for a court-martial to be held, if possible under war conditions. But if the case were not so clear, the senior officer could arrange for a court-martial to be held to inquire into the cause of the loss of the ship or he could order a court of inquiry which could be followed by a court-martial if necessary. There have been cases of loss of ships with no survivors. In these cases, as it is essential that under any section of the Naval Discipline Act there must be someone to try, of course no court-martial would be possible in these circumstances. If a senior naval officer does not order a court of inquiry or court-martial it is, of course, open to the Board of Admiralty still to do so if it considers such a course desirable. So what it comes to is this. In all cases we should get whatever detailed report of the circumstances of the loss were possible. In a number of cases the preliminary inquiry by court of inquiry would finally dispose of the matter. In some cases either a court-martial would be convened forthwith, if possible under war conditions, or convened as a result of the investigations made by the court of inquiry.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman is apparently quite under a misapprehension as to the extent to which courts-martial have been held during the War. He has only to debate the subject long enough and he will have convinced himself before he is finished that there have been hardly any at all. Every time the subject is debated they seem to me to get smaller by degrees and beautifully less. As a matter of fact, courts-martial have been held in a good many cases. In most of the remaining cases courts of inquiry have been held, and in the remaining cases the reports from the Fleet disposed of the necessity to carry the matter further. This has to be borne in mind—and I was rather sorry to hear my hon. and gallant Friend dismiss it as practically negligible—that naval warfare under present conditions renders it quite impossible to hold a court-martial forthwith in every case.

There is no demand whatever that a court-martial should be held forthwith. It is a mere matter of procedure as in the old days. If men were taken prisoners, it might be nine years before the court-martial was held, but it was held when the men came back from prison.

I would not like to pledge myself to that as to the holding of courts-martial nine years afterwards. I have read enough to know that that is a fact, but I cannot be understood to commit the Admiralty to a repetition of that practice to-day. My point is—and my hon. and gallant Friend rather pooh-poohed the idea—that a court-martial is a rather elaborate proceeding, and it is not correct to suggest that this procedure in regard to the holding of a court-martial in war-time can be swept away. I would point out that success in maintaining the command of the sea entails the utmost vigilance on the part of the whole Fleet in Home waters, coupled with instant readiness for movement in any direction. Time is, therefore, the essence of the situation more than in any previous naval war. That is the heart of the matter. The holding of a court-martial in every case of loss of ships involves the convening of a court for a fixed date at a given spot. I might ask those who criticise our policy whether they realise what the holding of a naval court-martial means. The court must consist of at least five officers, of whom one (the president) must in all cases be a captain or a flag officer; and if the person tried is a captain, the president must be a captain or of higher rank, and the remainder of the court commanders or officers of higher rank. Moreover, in a very important case, the court sometimes consists of nine captains or officers of higher rank. As the court is liable to last for several days there would result in effect for that period the assembly and detention of several vessels and the detachment of several officers from the duties of their ships. Turning to the accused, and the witnesses who must attend the trial, it is equally clear that their services cannot be effectively used pending the preparation for, and the holding of, the court-martial. It is, of course, impossible to say who will or who will not be required as witnesses for the prosecution on the one hand or the defence on the other, until it is clear what questions will have to be investigated. I have said, I think, sufficient to indicate that in the unprecedented circumstances of the present naval war there are considerations of the utmost importance which in themselves militate against the holding of courts-martial in every case of loss of one of His Majesty's ships. I will undertake to say this, that very many of those who say a court-martial should be held in every case of loss with survivors have not the faintest conception what an elaborate piece of administrative machinery a naval court-martial really is. So far what I have said does not in fact run counter to those who think a court-martial should be held in every case. My hon. and gallant Friend noted that. It merely contends that custom and tradition cannot in every case be satisfied during the War period. That is why the hon. and gallant Member referred to the case of a court-martial held nine years afterwards. I cannot leave the matter there.

It would not be fair to leave it at that. I must carry it a little further than that, because there is another consideration which cuts more fundamentally into that custom and tradition. That is to say, the changes which time has brought about make it desirable that custom and tradition should themselves be brought abreast with, and made applicable to modern conditions. That is a much more fundamental proposition than the mere question of time and expediency. I here state definitely that it is the view that changes which have been brought about make it necessary that custom and tradition should be brought abreast of modern conditions. The proposition is that, under modern conditions, losses may occur in which insistence on going through the elaborate court-martial procedure which I have already described would seem to be an altogether unnecessary proceeding. Therefore, there must be power of discrimination, though it is of vital importance, I agree, that the suspicion should not be allowed to grow up that discrimination is being directed by improper motives. But do look the facts in the face and with common-sense. Let me take an illustration born of modern conditions. I will not take the case of the mine or torpedo, but I will take the illustration of the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of small craft and many auxiliaries of all sorts now in our service. Does my hon. and gallant Friend insist that custom and tradition demand that we shall go through the elaborate procedure of court-martial in the case of every loss occurring amongst these craft?

The Admiralty themselves have set up their own court-martial procedure for dealing with these small craft. They are not war vessels. The Admiralty have set up their own procedure, and those mercantile captains or fishing captains can sit on the court.

I know; but if we begin to cast about for procedure, what assurance have I that my hon. and gallant Friend will not say, "You are knocking custom and tradition about once more." Let there be a court of inquiry wherever it is necessary along the lines indicated, by all means, and a court-martial if the circumstances seem to warrant it, by all means, but surely it is reducing custom and tradition to an absurdity to insist upon a court-martial in every case of this description. If my hon. and gallant Friend insists that there must be no discrimination of any kind, and that is what he does say, if he denies that losses may occur under the changed conditions of modern warfare in which there is no public interest to be served by the holding of a court-martial, and no public interest to be prejudiced by the failure to do so, then I am afraid we must part company. Let me endeavour to sum the whole matter up. I am sorry to have been so long, but it is a most important topic and a very ancient topic. (1) The policy of the present Board is that of their predecessors, and it is to hold courts-martial except in cases where there are no survivors, or in those instances—not infrequent during the present War—in which it would obviously be a waste of time to do so. That simply touches custom and tradition with the hand of common sense. (2) To that I should add that action taken as a result of war conditions would not affect or prejudice the decision which the Admiralty might come to after the War in future cases. That is to say, the fact that war conditions might, as I have endeavoured to show, preclude the possibility of holding a court-martial, is a circumstance which obviously would not operate in cases which might arise hereafter under peace conditions. My hon. and gallant Friend may not agree with what I have said. He will not misunderstand me when I say that to secure his agreement has not been my chief desire, though I should gratefully welcome it. My chief desire has been—and I think the importance of the subject demands it—to state the case with complete candour, and in such simple and unmistakable terms as are possible to me, and I hope I have succeeded in that endeavour.

Can my right hon. Friend give me the number of courts-martial held for disciplinary offences, which are obviously of much less importance than those held for the loss of warships?

I could not make any public statement on the last point, as to the number of courts-martial for losses of warships; but I am quite prepared to give my hon and gallant Friend for his own personal guidance the whole of the details. Further it appears to me, from some of the comments which he has made, that if he would do us the favour to go into the matter fully with the Judge Advocate of the Fleet—both the Judge Advocate and myself would be very glad to go into it—I think that we would succeed in removing some misapprehension on his part.

Enemy Princes' Titles

I wish to call public attention to a matter which, if I were not supported by anyone, I would still consider it my duty to do so, but I am, however, supported I know in this by the people of the country. I wish my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House to consider how he can justify this. We are now in the third year of the War, a war in which, as the Prime Minister said this afternoon, every one of us should act as reasonable human beings to protect his country. How in such circumstances can he justify the fact, first of all that two enemy princes divide six peerages in the House of Lords between them and that after three years of war no fewer than ten enemy princes are holders of the Victorian Order with the Victorian Chain? There are only thirty-eight members of this Order, and can it be believed that of these thirty-eight more than one-fourth are enemy princes? Then we come to the honorary knighthoods of the Bath. There are no fewer than eight of these persons honorary Knights of the Bath. I speak of this without bitterness as far as I can, but my case is not an uncommon one. I have had no fewer than eleven near relatives who have fallen in this War besides many dear friends. My right hon. Friend himself (Mr. Bonar Law) has not passed unscathed; very few of us have. How can we then be told when our children are killed in defence of liberty, when we ourselves are put on rations, when we are attacked by submarines every day, that these men who are doing this should have the highest honours which the Crown can give them, when a stroke of the pen by the King, on the advice of the Prime Minister, would remove these men from these honours?

The fact is a scandal and it has got some results. The Foreign Secretary has been speaking about democracy, and General Smuts in his great speech has spoken about a resolute republic—America. When we are speaking of these things, does not the President of the United States know that among the persons who have these honours which some people desire with such burning ambition are no less personages than the Emperor of Germany himself, his son, his interesting son-in-law, and the King of Bulgaria? How can it be justified? I cannot in this matter speak of legislation, but legislation has its uses. That legislation applies only to peerages. It does not and cannot apply to knighthoods, which are titles of honour and completely within the prerogative of the King. I maintain the belief that the King could revoke the letters patent of any peer, but I have not the slightest doubt that the King, on the advice of his Prime Minister, simply by a stroke of the pen can remove all these gentlemen from their knight- hoods. Consider for a moment this amazing fact that on 13th May, 1915, when the War was nearly a year in progress, the Knights of the Garter were removed, including the Duke of Albany, the grandson of Queen Victoria, an ungrateful grandson too, who was brought up, educated, and supported by this country and has turned into our enemy, and including likewise the Duke of Cumberland, the gentleman who congratulated the German Fleet and the German Emperor on the great victory of Jutland, and whose son and heir, the Duke of Lüneburg and Brandenburg, is married to the daughter of the German Emperor.

All these men are in possession of their knighthoods, though many of them have been deprived of their knighthoods of the Garter. Why is the knighthood of the Garter a greater honour than a knighthood of the Victorian Order or than ordinary knighthoods of the Grand Cross of the Bath and above all peerages of the Realm? What justification or excuse is there for continuing honours to the gentleman who congratulated the German Emperor on the Battle of Jutland? It reminds me of the account of the battle which tells how the German Fleet vanished through the thick weather and went into Heligoland Bay, and Heligoland was given by this country in 1890 simply as a present to the German Emperor. That shows the effect of these royal alliances abroad, on which General Smuts, in the world-wide speech of his, made such comment. Has this thing not gone too far? The King, on the advice of his Prime Minister, has issued a Proclamation which I have heard read in the churches, about our food. Why would not the right hon. Gentleman advise him to remove from the list of these honours these villains who are unworthy of any honour, and who are simply kept there because they are royalties and connections of royalties. What will our allied peoples and our English democracy think of it—the fathers and mothers who have lost their children—when they find our bitterest enemies, who are blowing us up, and trying to starve us, kept in the highest honours of this realm? Is this likely to bring royalty into good repute or to redound to the credit of this country?

I put these things without bitterness. For fear that I may be considered as making these remarks on the spur of the moment, may I point out that three Governments for some reason or another, through some hidden influence, have been kept from taking this proper step. Lord Milner the other day made a remarkable statement. He said that he and Lord Roberts, when the War was about to take place, both wished to surrender the foreign honours which they held from the German Emperor, and they were precluded by the Cabinet of that day from doing so. What was the reason of that? I need not say anything, I am sure, about the Duke of Cumberland, except that it is interesting to see how very popular it is that a change should be made in this matter. I have here a literary curiosity the last edition of Burke's Peerage in which the Duke of Cumberland and Duke of Albany will ever appear. All these dukes and potentates are eliminated from the new edition of Burke's Peerages, with the Knights of the Bath and the Knights of the Victorian Chain. I have here the last edition but one, in which the Arms of the Royal Family are quartered with the arms of the Duke of Albany and the Duke of Cumberland. The omission in the last edition of Burke's Peerage shows the inclination of the popular will that these men should be removed from their honours, and I want to know who is keeping them there?

How can you ask us to give our lives to this very great and noble cause in which I should be only too delighted to fight myself, if that were possible, when we have such an example as this of these fellows who get all the highest honours and privileges, because they are a peculiar caste and a section of the nobility? On the roll of the Victorian Order there appear the names of the Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, and then we have the Duke of Albany, that very interesting personage. Again, the Duke of Brunswick and Luneberg, who received the honour co recently as the 24th May, 1913, and two years afterwards the then Prime Minister stated that we were within twenty-four hours of war with Germany. Then there follow the Emperor himself, the Crown Prince, the Duke of Hesse, Prince Henry of Prussia, and that very grateful Albert of Schleswig-Holstein, whose parents are enjoying an enormous income while he is fighting against us. Then among the names of Knights Grand Cross, we have the King of Bulgaria, whom we are fighting; we have Prince Ernest Louis, Grand Duke of Hesse; again, we have Prince Frederick Louis of Hesse, Prince Albert of Schleswig-Holstein, the Prince of Hohenlohe, the Duke of Saxe-Coburg, and the Duke of Meningen. How long is this to go on? Do not let us call ourselves a democratic country while these fellows hold British honours. I submit that it is the imperative duty of the Prime Minister at one stroke of the pen to deprive these persons of them. I say nothing in regard to the Peerages, except to remark upon the retardation of the steps taken to abolish them. I ask my right hon. Friend to see that this is put an end to, and that these fellows shall not be retained on a roll of honour to which they are a foul disgrace.

Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act

I desire to speak on tht question of re-examination, which is causing a good deal of dissatisfaction all over the country, and a very prominent paper in the North of England is publishing cases where men have been rejected as many as six or seven times during the course of the War, and who in this appeal are again asked to undergo re-examination and to qualify either for the fighting forces or for some of the lower military classes. We have had very strong appeals made to all classes of the community by the Prime Minister and by the right hon. Gentleman on the Front Opposition Bench, asking that everyone should do their best in support of this War; but I feel sure that the action of the War Office authorities at the present time, with reference to these re-examinations, is not going to evoke anything like unanimity in the way of response from the people of this country, in view of the way in which the re-examinations are being carried on. I am not raising this matter in any carping spirit at all. When we became engaged in the War I made up my mind as a Britisher to give all the support I possibly could to the winning of it. Therefore, it cannot be said that I am urging this matter as an opponent of the War or of the War Office. I have always contended, since this War commenced, that if we are to win it we must keep the people of this country as unanimous as possible. I represent a working-class division of the city of Manchester, and I find all over that city great dissatisfaction because of the way in which the War Office are conducting these re- examinations. I should like to read one case of many cases that have been published in this North of England newspaper, which has been publishing lists of from thirty to forty cases of a very important kind. The one which I am about to quote is dated 18th May, 1917. It is contained in a letter sent to the newspaper, and it states that an accountant was recently called before the medical board at Hulme Town Hall for service, and the following record is given:

"At the outbreak of war tried to enlist in 6th Manchester; was refused on account of flat foot, bad eyesight and two operations, one for appendicitis and the other for hernia Later on tried to join the Public Schools, and also Manchester University O.T.C.; was rejected for reasons stated above. When Lord Derby's scheme came out, again went up, but was marked medically unfit by a certain doctor of the R.A.M.C. Last June went into Manchester Infirmary for an operation caused through stoppage of the bowels—had a large part of the intestines taken out; had been out of the infirmary a few days when a pink form was received calling him up for re-examination; was refused; form this time was signed by one of the examiners. After another week or so had again to go into the infirmary to undergo a certain operation. Spending the best part from June to December, 1916, in the infirmary in bed, was again summoned to go and be re-examined in April, 19.7, and has been passed for service. A married man, aged twenty-nine, working for one of the largest firms of chartered accountants in Manchester. When this man presented himself for medical examination at Hulme Town Hall he was asked whether he had ever had a serious illness, and he replied, 'I should have thought that you could see that; I have fifty-two stitches in my side'; but this answer appeared to be the main reason for his immediate acceptance by the Army."

It does not say what class. This is only one of many thousands of cases that have occurred all over this country. There are a large number of these cases which are causing great dissatisfaction all over the country not only to the men who are unfit, but also to our discharged soldiers. The people who are and have been all along favourable to supporting the War are really getting disgusted with the way in which the military authorities are treating these people. Many months ago I asked the present Secretary for War, at a meeting we had with him at the Board of Education, what he thought of these cases. At that time his opinion was that the man who was unfit for the Army for fighting purposes was far better in civil employment in the interests of the country as a whole. It seems to me that the policy of the War Office has changed very considerably from that time. Imagine the worry and trouble caused by constantly calling up these men. When the Act was passed it was said that the reason for it was to bring men in who had been rejected early on in the War. I think we were given to understand that men who had been rejected by properly constituted medical boards were not to be again re-examined. But, in spite of that, men have been examined and rejected at least four or five times in a year and then been recalled. The medical officers at present seem to be classifying these unfit men for some category of service in the Army. I am of opinion that such men would do greater service in civil employment. I have had, and I am sure other Members have had, correspondence about cases which show that many of these men who have been taken into the Army have broken down and in that way been the means of wasting thousands of pounds of the taxpayers' money. Therefore, I want to appeal to the Under-Secretary to see that this thing will be stopped. I am informed, on very good authority—I do not know with what truth—that every man brought forward for re-examination must be classified in some category. From what I have seen and know of men who have been taken into the Army and classified, there seems to be some truth in that statement.

I desire to give a case in which I am personally interested, to show how the medical boards are treating people. This is the case of a young man who some years ago had a very severe illness. He had an attack of diptheria, and at the end of nearly six months paralysis set in and he had to go into the Manchester Royal Infirmary to take electric and massage treatment to get him on his feet again. He suffered for months, and with the result was left with defective hearing and very deaf indeed. Two and a half years ago he was taken to an eminent specialist on deafness in Manchester, and from that day to this is being treated by him. The specialist has said times out of number that under no circumstances is this young man to enlist, and that if he did he would go stone deaf, and that there were scores and hundreds who had been taken after casual examination and who had gone stone deaf. This man was before a Medical Board last year, and they sent him to a specialist on deafness, and on his report he was rejected. He has been called up again this year, and classed, I admit, in a very low category. The President of that Board in Manchester said that one ear is gone altogether and the other is very bad indeed, and that he is unable to do any violent training of any kind, but, he added, I cannot say that he could not do something; he might do for clerking. It was then put to him that the man had to go under treatment by the specialist twice a day, morning and evening, and to be in a dry climate, and that in the Army he would be unable to continue the treatment and the result would be that he would grow worse.

2.0 P.M.

I think this class of man ought not to be taken into the Army at all. I saw in the paper the other day that you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Maclean), said that no man ought to be in the Army if he should have medical treatment. This man has been under medical treatment under this eminent specialist for two and a half years, and that specialist said three weeks ago that he was no better than he was when he began, and ought under no circumstances to go into the Army. It is most necessary that a soldier should hear instructions, and the fact that he would not be able to do so might endanger the lives of hundreds of comrades. I do hope that the War Office will consider this question very seriously. In my opinion it is a shame and a disgrace. I am most anxious to win this War, but I see that there are thousands of fit young men walking our streets, and I think that men of that kind ought to be taken rather than the others. I have wached men training at Blackpool and other places, and many of them who are suffering from infirmities are unable to keep up with the training of the medically fit men, and comments are made by men and women in the streets on the disgraceful way in which those men are compelled to train when they are not fit to do so. Therefore I say if we are to have soldiers, let us have soldiers who are competent for active service, and not those who are not and who ought to stay in civil employment. It will cause greater satisfaction even to those who are favourable to winning the War, and who are giving the country and the Government all the support possible if the authorities put a check to what I may call this damnable system of the reexamination of these men who are unfit for the Army. While that is going on you will not get anything like complete unanimity of the people, which is so desirable towards the winning of the War. I therefore hope that the Under-Secretary will do all that is possible to try and stem this tide of re-examination.

I should like to bring to the notice of my hon. Friend and the War Office a matter in connection with one of the most important parts of the recruiting that is now going on. I speak specially of the recruiting of officers, or rather of the men who may be supposed to be called as officers, the young men who are anxious to join Officers' Training Corps, of which there are so many about in the country. Seeing the demand for officers is always pressing, and as we cannot, I think, get too many suitable young men who may train and subsequently become officers, I trust that my hon. Friend will do his best to get the difficulties relaxed that stand in the way of Officers' Training Corps being supplied. In view of the fact, as we know, of the absolute necessity of getting suitable young men into training so that they may become acquainted with their duties, and considering how these kind of men are wanted at the front at the present moment, I trust the present arrangements will be suspended sufficiently to enable these young men to join the Army, and look forward to commissions. We welcome the entrance of the Prime Minister in the Debate. There is the case of the Ruhleben prisoners, and their food. I should like to suggest, and I shall certainly take it upon myself to bring it under the notice of the Prisoners' Committee, which I think is practically the only way to solve the difficulty, that the condition of our prisoners at the Ruhleben encampment is absolutely—well,I think, beyond the power of words to describe. Think for a moment whether we should like German soldiers and German sentries standing over us, and to be exposed to every evil that I think human nature is open to, and I think we shall all agree to demand that the authorities here shall deal with the question at once.

Surely it is possible for these prisoners to be removed to a neutral country where the whole expenses might be borne by ourselves. Surely the German Government could have no objection to allowing prisoners to be transferred to Switzerland, or some other country, on the clear understanding that they were kept under guard and restraint, and that the whole of the expenses of their keep fell on the country to which they belonged. The condition of the prisoners at the present time is one which should fill us with sorrow and grief. Anybody who knows anything about the matter will have the most absolute sym- pathy with them. I feel certain that the House should impress upon the Committee, which is in charge of the prisoners' interests, to do all that can be done. The feeling and conviction of the House is that this is a matter that should be dealt with at once. We know that much more advantageous terms might have been arranged earlier but there is no use in crying over that. I do however, urge that the House should insist that so far as the condition of our prisoners is concerned, either through the Committee to which I have referred or otherwise, that no further time should be lost in trying to relieve the difficulties and serious condition of our fellow subjects who fought on behalf of, and in defence of the home countries. I hope that it will go forth as the universal opinion of this House that this is an urgent question. If there are any members of the Prisoners' Committee present I trust they will lose no time in calling attention to the absolute necessity of remedial measures being taken at once.

There is no doubt of the existence of a feeling of grievance amongst a number of the men who have been called up for further medical re-examination. There have been a number of bogus cases of men who ought to be in the Army; consequently to a great extent the genuine cases have suffered. The House will probably recollect that there have been scandals in places like London and Liverpool, and it is quite evident that a number of men have by wrong means escaped the Army. It was all-important that they should be re-examined in order to get them into the Army. There are points which we ought to keep distinct. It is for the medical board to say whether a man is, in their opinion, of Army fitness. I do not mean to say that it is for them to say whether a man can fight in the front trenches or not, but to say whether he is of Army fitness—that is for clerical or other work at home or abroad. A man suffering from great defects may be fit for clerical work at home or clerical work abroad. It is for the medical board to decide that point; it is not for the medical board to say whether or not a man shall go into the Army. It is for the tribunal, having regard to the medical qualifications of the man, and to the work that the man may be doing, whether of national importance or not, to say whether a man's fitness for the Army outweighs the importance of any work he may be doing for the nation. It is for the medical board to say whether the man has or has not any Army fitness; it is for the tribunal on appeal—if the man appeals—to say that, having regard to the qualifications of the applicant, and having regard to what work he is doing on behalf of the nation, whether or not he ought to go into the Army. These two points ought to be kept apart. The War Office can only act through the medical gentlemen.

The difficulty in regard to medical examination and re-examination is that medical examination is not an exact science. One medical expert will say that a man is fit for general service. Another medical man will say that he is not fit for the Army at all. It may be that there are cases—like the cases of pictures in the Law Courts—where a medical man may be quite honest in his opinion, but another medical man may be quite as honest on the other side. I understand from medical men that in a number of cases that come before them they have grave doubts. When they have certificates from the local practitioners the only way they can find out whether a man is malingering or not is to put him into the Army, and so keep him under control and supervision for from three to seven days. It is possible for the man who, so to speak, "fakes" himself up for examination to be some time before the effect of the "faking-up" ceases. Consequently a man of that kind must be kept in the Army and watched, so that it may be discovered whether he is a bogus or a genuine case. May I say this to the private practitioners? I have seen many hundreds of letters from private practitioners with regard to their patients, and I would say that, in order to help the medical boards, it is important that the private practitioner should send somewhat different letters from the letters they send. For example, to say, "I have attended So-and-so for three years," without giving any details of the occasions on which he has attended So-and-so, or merely to say, "I have attended him for a period of six months," is not much to guide the medical board. Then another man puts down that So-and-so is suffering from so-and-so. It may be there are twenty different signs. If the medical practitioner would say in his letter, "I have found So-and-so, which would indicate that he is suffering from so-and-so," no doubt the medical board would look for those particular signs and be guided by them. I feel personally, and I am sure everyone must feel, the greatest sympathy for the men who were honestly rejected because they were suffering from real illnesses. It must be hard on them to be called up again, but unless they are all recalled and all re-examined it will be impossible to get at the bogus cases of men who ought to have been in the Army but got through the meshes of the net. Another point I would say about the medical boards is this: I think the experience and knowledge I have had of them would lead me to go so far as to say that I am afraid medical boards are apt to look upon any review of their previous findings as being a reflection on them. Medical boards get back from a tribunal, or somewhere else, the statement that a man ought not to be in as high a category as they have placed him. I think there is a tendency in the medical boards to look upon any re-examination of that kind as a reflection on themselves, and they do not in a number of cases, I think, treat the man who is offering himself for this re-examination with quite the courtesy to which the man is entitled. A man is kept waiting a long time, and then, when the medical board examine him, they do not say very much to him, and he does not know what is happening until he finds himself outside and the sergeant hands him a paper marked B1 or C1.

I am certain the War Office has sympathy with men who ought never to be in any army or do work in connection with any army, but unless everybody is called up, and they suffer these little indignities at the present time, it is difficult no doubt to get at the men who have escaped the Army, when they ought never to have done so.

I desire to bring before the attention of the House the question of a raid or raids which have been made in the Constituency I represent. About a fortnight ago a raid was made, and some hundreds of men were rounded up and detained some considerable time, the outcome of which, I understand, was that three aliens were charged at the Police Court with offences under the civil law. One would have thought that that would have sufficed, but last Friday night a further raid took place. One recognises that the military and recruiting authorities have a very difficult and at times a painful business in getting men into the Army, but what I think the general public are entitled to ask is, that before drastic steps are taken there should be justification for extreme action. Now I should very much like to know, and I think hon. Members are entitled to know, and we would be grateful to the Under-Secretary of State for War, if he would tell this House what is the procedure adopted before these raids are decided upon. After this particular raid took place, in consequence of very painful stories to which I had to listen, I endeavoured to find out who was the responsible authority. I think that before raids are authorised the House should be assured that every precaution is taken by the responsible authorities to satisfy themselves that justification for the raid exists, and that some really responsible authority should undertake the responsibility of deciding upon it.

After the raid took place I naturally assumed that the War Office would know something about it. I found they were not posted there. I therefore went to the recruiting authorities, naturally expecting they would know about the raid, and had authorised it. I could not get much satisfaction. I went to the Provost-Marshal's. I had a conversation there, but there again I failed to get anything satisfactory. I then approached the Commander-in-Chief for the London area, who received me with a good deal of sympathy, but I failed to find any person who was prepared to undertake the responsibility of ordering a raid. That the military and police combined took action there is no doubt; but, judging from the impression I gathered in trying to fix some responsible authority, that a good deal was left to the junior officials, and that no really responsible member of the Government or of the authorities would admit that he was liable, and that he personally authorised the raid. That is the question of the raid itself. Let me deal now with certain circumstances in which this raid was carried out. I propose to quote an extract from the letter of a West End gentleman who spends certain of his evenings running a working lads' club in the constituency. This is what he says: action was taken. There was a good deal of excitement, and a certain amount of violence was used. There was one man with the blood streaming down his face as the result of a blow either from a soldier or a constable, and he was heard to say, "I am a wounded soldier. I have been at the front, and have been wounded four times, and why am I treated like this by men who have done no fighting for their country?" That is what occurred on a particular night in a district where there are a lot of munition workers, and where the excitement is very great.

Can you imagine a more untimely night than that particular night to take possession of any man, whether he be a boy of sixteen or a man of forty-five? Picture the parents waiting for their boys to return, picture those who were waiting for their husbands—for all these people would naturally be alarmed! During these disturbances I was telephoned for, and I was told thousands of people were outside these detention places, and it is the greatest wonder that there was not a considerable amount of bloodshed. I think we are entitled to have an assurance that every care will be taken in the future, and that some responsible member of the Government will give the necessary authority before these raids are made, and if they are made there should be someone present who will use tact and discretion as to the extent to which all this kind of thing is to be done. The seizure in one small area of a quarter of a mile of all these people shows that there is plenty of scope for a little more discretion to be used. Another matter is the question of the tribunal and the military representatives connected therewith. It is my duty to spend several days a week as chairman of a tribunal, and of late our difficulties have been added to very considerably by the action of the military representatives. The local tribunal gives exemption to a man, and the military representative appeals, and the Appeal Tribunal confirms the exemption. Later the same man comes to the local tribunal again, and once more he is given exemption, and the military representative appeals again, with the same result. The consequence is that in four months there are two local applications, and now there is a fourth appeal. I think the House is entitled to have some assurance from the Under-Secretary that when a local tribunal gives a decision, and the Appeal Court confirm that decision, that man ought to have at least a little breathing time to know what he is doing. To have two local Courts and two Appeal Courts dealing with the same man within four months is absurd. I would like the Under-Secretary to consider that question, and assure us that some supervision will be exercised over the appeals made by the local military representatives. We get a number of appeals from tradesmen to whom the local tribunal gives exemption, and to bring these cases so frequently to the Appeal Tribunals causes much anxiety to those concerned. I should be glad if the Under-Secretary would give that matter his careful consideration.

Mr. MACPHERSON rose—

I desire to know from you Mr. Maclean whether it is not in accordance with the practice of this House that when an hon. Member gives notice both to the Minister concerned and to the Chair that he is going to raise a certain subject that he should be given an opportunity before the Minister replies.

The occupant of the Chair is responsible for conducting the proceedings, and hon. Members are called upon subject to the general convenience of the House and the discretion of the Chair which is exercised from time to time.

Am I to understand then that your discretion is being used in this House to suppress the discussion of a question which an hon. Member has been asked by several other hon. Members to raise affecting thousands of men outside and one which is causing the gravest unrest in the country? Is that the ruling of the Chair?

The hon. Member is not entitled to make any such deduction from what I have said.

On that point, Mr. Maclean, may I point out to you that if the arrangements which are usually made by courtesy are disregarded—I do not refer to the action of the Chair—by Ministers, does not that tend to cause unnecessary friction and irritation and a sense of injustice which really is more likely to prolong than shorten debate?

I will deal with the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Whitechapel (Mr. Kiley), although I do not think I can usefully add anything to what I have already stated in the very full answer to a question which was on the Paper to-day. I think if my hon. Friend will read the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow he will see that I have dealt very fully with the points he has raised.

You cannot deal with them at all because the case has not been presented. It is a scandal, and you should not have risen. You are shielding your own office. It is a scandal; it is suppression.

We have already had three or four speeches on the subject. The Debate was opened by the hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Sutton). I do not at all object—

You know why this matter was raised, to-day, and you have risen before the case has been opened.

The point on re-examination which was brought forward by my hon. Friend—

On a point of Order. If this question is subsequently raised, will the hon. Gentleman have a right of reply?

I am afraid the hon. Member exhausts his right of speech in the Debate if he speaks now.

Meanwhile, I am quite willing to be interrupted by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for North-West Lanark (Mr. Pringle) and I will be most happy to deal with any individual point which he cares to raise. My hon. Friend the Member for Manchester first of all brought to my notice the case of a man who was examined for the Manchester Officers' Training Corps. It is well known in the House that the standard of medical classification for any applicant for an Officers' Training Corps was very much higher at that time than the standard for any man desirous of going into the ranks. He did not go on to state in what class or category this applicant was placed, but I can well imagine that the reason he has been called up for re-examination is really due to the fact that the examination was by the medical board appointed by the Officers' Training Corps, which has not the same classification as that necessary for the ranks. My hon. Friend said that these men were being constantly called up. That is perfectly true. When the Review of Exceptions Act was passed I had to explain, and so had my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that it was necessary, because there were a great many men who might be available for the service of the country though not of a very high physical character. It is a regrettable fact that men who are hopelessly unfit for service should have all the trouble of being called up, but, as I stated when we were discussing the Bill, though there were a million men who would come under it, we did not hope, as the Bill originally stood, to get more than 100,000, and, after the Amendments which I accepted on behalf of the Government, we now only hope to get 60,000 men.

:I do not know what justification my hon. Friend has for that statement. The facts supplied to me show conclusively that if we do get 60,000 men out of the million liable to be called up under this Bill we shall fulfil our highest expectations.

As a matter of fact, we do not know exactly in what particular category any individual of that million men may be, but as the hon. Member knows, and as the hon. Member for Carnarvon (Mr. Caradoc Rees) pointed out, there have been a great many cases of men getting exemption by means of fraud, and it is only by the process of calling up all these men that we are able to get them to the Colours. My hon. Friend the Member for Manchester went on to deal with the case of a deaf recruit in a very low category. I have reason to think that my hon. Friend knows that case very intimately, and I do not, of course, dispute the facts, but he rather missed the point when he said that it was wrong to call into the Service a deaf man and that he should be left in his ordinary civil occupation. The reason which he gave in support of that statement was that if a man were deaf and were called to the Colours he would be endangering the lives of those under his command. Probably this particular recruit may have been placed in a very low category, and supposing he were placed in class C3, there would be no danger at all to any man under his command, because you only have men under your command in hours of danger if you are in category A and are doing active service at the front. The point to be remembered is that we are in need of men at the present time. We were in need at the time of that Bill, and we are more in need now. Fighting is going on day after day, and it is only by a process of organisation that a man can be released from a lower category to do work in the Army, and his place taken by a man doing the same class of work in a civilian occupation. We must be able to do that and to have the man-power that is necessary if we are to carry on this War effectively. The hon. Member for Argyleshire (Sir J. Ainsworth) brought forward a different point. He asked me whether it would not be possible to expedite the time at which prospective officers are allowed to join Officers' Training Corps. The real reason why every man who is likely to become an officer cannot at once get into an Officers' Training Corps is that we lack accommodation and instructors, and, as I have told my hon. Friend several times in the course of conversation and by correspondence, if a likely applicant for a commission joins the ranks he has almost as good a chance, if he is a good man, as any man who goes into an Officers' Training Corps. The one essential for a man who is likely to become an officer is that he should have some training, whether in an Officers' Training Corps or in the ranks. I will certainly speak to the authorities concerned to see whether it is not possible either to extend the accommodation or to get additional instructors, so that if there is the desire, particularly among young men of eighteen or nineteen years of age, fresh from school, they shall be allowed to go into an Officers' Training Corps without delay. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Carnarvon, in a very helpful speech, which, I think, brought the discussion down to bed- rock fact, pointed out very clearly what is the duty of the medical board, so far as these million men are concerned. I think the House, though they may not agree with the result, will agree with his statement of the duties of those boards. They have to find whether any individual of the number who are mentioned is fit for military service in any class. That is their duty. I must recall to the House the fact that the members of these medical boards are just as sympathetic as any Members of this House.

Does the hon. Gentleman really think that by the medical boards examining a man once they can understand the position as well as the doctor who has been attending the man for years?

It may be that in certain cases mistakes are made, but my contention is that at least 75 per cent. of the members of the medical board of this country at the present time are civilians pure and simple.

Can the hon. Gentleman tell us the speed at which these men are passed by the doctors? That would give us some idea of whether there is the opportunity of their exercising their ability.

I am not dealing with that specific point. I am dealing with the point which I think is of very great importance, namely, an implication that the medical boards are composed of purely military doctors, and that they are dominated by military caste and traditions, and are ordered to do things by the superior military authorities. That is the implication. My answer to bat is this—that 75 per cent. at least of these doctors who at the present time are acting upon the medical boards are as civilian as my hon. Friend the Member for Hanley (Mr. Outhwaite).

Where a man is examined by doctors—and we will grant the hon. Gentleman's contention they are civilian doctors—but where the man has been examined by the civilian doctors, the placing of him in this category is determined by the Army medical doctor.

That is not so. It is invariably the practice that two of three doctors are civilians, and if that is true—and I think it is true—that there is a proportion of two-thirds of three mem- bers of the board civilian, then to say that two-thirds is dominated by the remaining third passes my comprehension, and I do not understand it.

I have a case in my pocket now that I can state to the right hon. Gentleman.

I think I am right in my statement of the facts. I still assert what I said during the progress of the Bill that the large majority of the doctors employed upon the medical boards at the present time are purely civilian doctors, who have no taint of what my hon. Friend called the military caste.

Not the travelling military boards? You put all R.A.M.C. men on the travelling boards.

I am not quite sure whether my hon. Friend is accurate, and I cannot contradict him.

I got it from one of the leading authorities of the medical profession two or three days ago.

All I know is that, from the statistics supplied to me, which I believe to be true, in many cases seventy-five per cent. of the doctors are purely civilian with civilian traditions. I do not think there is any other point which am called upon to deal with.

Will the hon. Gentleman make some reference to the point about which I asked him. I asked him privately yesterday if he would take up the point, and he said he would. I attempted to do so this afternoon at Question Time, but Mr. Deputy-Speaker refused to allow me to give the notice that I wished to raise a question which most Members are allowed to give. But as it is evidently the desire of certain authorities that this should not be raised here, I will take the opportunity of raising it when I can.

I thought that all the points were covered in the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester (Mr. Sutton)—at all events, the main points, and that I could properly reply when I did and deal with any other point which is in the minds of hon. Friends if they questioned me upon it. I think I have covered all the points which have been raised. As my hon. Friends know well, if they will produce to me any specific cases I think I can claim this fairly that I will do my level best to reply to them and to inquire into any grievances and see that they are remedied, but in regard to the general case it is almost impossible for me to deal with it in a Debate of this sort, but I can assure the House that the recruiting authorities are doing their level best now, by co-operation between the medical boards and the recruiting officers, to see that such cases as were brought to my notice by my hon. Friend the Member for West Lanark—

And my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Wedgwood), that there should be no overcrowding and no unnecessary waiting at recruiting offices. I hope the scheme will conduce to the smoother working of things.

May I ask one question? The hon. Gentleman said he expected to get out of 1,000,000 men 60,000. Can he say how many of these will be fit for general service, and in what categories they will be put?

No, I cannot. As the House knows very well, when you are dealing with this 1,000,000 men you are dealing partly with those most gallant fellows who have been invalided out of the Service, and you are dealing with a certain percentage of shirkers and another percentage of fraudulent persons. I can assume that the gallant fellows who are no longer called up are not A men, but I can legitimately assume that a very considerable percentage of the fraudulent persons and shirkers who got rejection very easily at the beginning of the War are very likely A men. I should not be at all surprised that the great majority of the 60,000 men which I think we are certain of getting are men who will be fit for general military service.

Welsh Church Act

Are we to understand that the Debate on the question now under discussion is to cease?

It is my duty to have in view all Members of the House and to give them a fair opportunity of debate.

You will not get the Adjournment until you have given us an opportunity.

I hope the House will welcome a switch off from the discussion which has been going on for some time.

I am very reluctant to get up and interpose, because at a time like this, when all the energies of the nation ought to be concentrated upon the prosecution of the War, it is not a very pleasant task to have to revive such an old controversy as that which clusters round the Welsh Church, and my only excuse is this, that this question has been revived not by the Welsh members but by the Welsh bishops—I want to exempt altogether from that statement the Bishop of Liandaff—but by two of the Welsh bishops, aided and abetted by English laymen, who cannot be said to have any right to speak in the name of the Welsh people. Now the position is this. In 1914 the Welsh Church Act was placed on the Statute Book, after having run the gauntlet of three Sessions in this House. But for the accident of the War, without any doubt that Act, without any Amendment, would have become law under the operation of the Parliament Act. In the beginning of July, 1914, when the Welsh Church Act passed finally through its stages, no one thought but that at the end of Parliamentary Session it would operate, and that in 1915 it would become law.

Notice taken of the fact that forty Members were not present; House counted, and, forty Members being found present—

I was saying that by March, 1915, this Bill was to become operative but for the accident of the War. In March, 1915, the then Liberal Government introduced a Bill to postpone the operations of the Act for six months after the conclusion of the War. I was the only unofficial private Member, and I take some credis to myself for it, who supported that Bill. I was the only Welsh Member outside the ranks of the Government who gave any sort of support. The reason why I did so was this: At the time I felt that the Church was losing something owing to the War, and I thought it unfair that the Church in Wales should by the accident of the War lose anything at all. I am still of the same opinion. I think the Church ought to be placed in as good a position as it held at the time the Bill was put on the Statute Book. Two years have elapsed since then, and what is the result? The result to-day is this, that, owing to the fact of the War, the Church, instead of losing, as the Bishop of St. Asaph tried to make out, has gained by £1,000,000 sterling directly through the operations of the War. That is a very astounding result. The Church after disendowment will be better off than she was before the War, in spite of the fact that her ancient endowments will be taken away. Owing to the operations of the War the Church will be better off after the War than she was before the War.

The House may inquire why is it? It is due to two reasons. First of all, the value of tithe is going up day by day. In May, 1913, when the Welsh Church Act was passed, the value of tithe was £68 for every £100 tithe. In 1915, when the Act would have come into operation but for the accident of the War, the value of the tithe was £74. To-day the position is even better owing to the increase in the price of cereals and the demand for foodstuff. By next year it is possible that the value may run up to £105. And this proposal which has been made by Lord Selborne and the other Church laymen in the House of Lords, and of course it was made here, to postpone the operation of the Welsh Church Act until after the War is over, is designed to stave off the operation of the Act, and the value of the tithe will go to about £120. The ingenius gentleman who made the Welsh County Council buy the tithe when it is as high as 120 per cent. must know very well that we shall see a decline in the value of the tithe. I say, therefore, that owing to the operation of the War the tithe has already gone up 18 per cent. By next year, which is the earliest time that the Act can come into operation, the value of the tithe will have gone up still more. It will have gone up another 10 per cent. or 12 per cent. at the very least. Therefore, owing to the fact that the War has sent up the price of cereals. the value of the tithe will have gone up from something like £137,000 to £150,000, or £160,000 a year, and it will be at that increased value that the Welsh County Council will buy the tithe.

3.0 P.M.

I do not think I am overstating it when I say to that fact alone the Church has benefited by at least three-quarters of a million. That is not all. Unfortunately in the Bill that was passed in 1913, proposals were introduced for commutation, in order to ascertain what the value of the life interests were. It was stated in the Bill that the interest should be taken at 3½ per cent. Some of us Welshmen protested at the time that 3½ per cent. was very unfair, though we were willing to accept it in accordance with the Government proposal. Some hon. Gentlemen sitting on this side of the House tried to reduce it to 3 per cent. But what is the position to-day? The position to-day is that the last War Loan brings in 5½ per cent., and it would be perfectly easy for an astute investor at the conclusion of the War to get a clear 5½ per cent. or 6½ per cent. for any investment. But take the 5½per cent. That will mean a clear profit of at least 2 per cent. on the £2,500,000 or £3,000,000. That is at least £50,000 a year profit more than was contemplated by Parliament which will accrue to the Church through that fact. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House when he was Leader of the Opposition two or three years ago might have said that commutation was a business proposition and that the Church ought not to lose or gain by it. It should be a fair, equitable transaction, based on an actuarial calculation. That is what this House thought it was doing when it passed the Act three years ago. It is now not a business proposition at all, because the Church is making £50,000 a year profit, an accidental profit. Because the War has sent up the value of money, the Church has been making another £50,000 a year from it. Add these two figures together and you will see that the Church makes at least £1,500,000 through these two facts. Assume that I am exaggerating and say that at least the Church is making a profit of over £1,000,000 through the accident of the War, yet with that fact known to every man who has taken the slightest interest in the matter and who has made any investigation into it, the Bishop of St. Asaph had the temerity in the House of Lords the other day to talk about the absolute poverty of the Church.

I submit there is no case that can be made out for reconsideration from the Church's point of view of the Welsh Church Act. If the Welsh Members and the Welsh people had demanded the re-consideration of the matter because the facts had turned out very different from what they anticipated three years ago, I could have understood it, but we have seen our national property, as we call it—it is the basis of our case, and if these ancient endowments are not the property of the people but are the property of the Church, we are, of course, robbing the Church; I am entitled to assume that the House has taken for granted that the national endowments belong to the Welsh people and to the national Church—we have seen £1,000,000 at least of the national property of the Welsh people transferred to the pockets of the Church by the accident of the War, yet we have never raised our voice in protest, because we felt that the whole energy of the people of this country ought to be directed to the prosecution of the War. We are now confronted with an agitation in this House and elsewhere, promoted by men in close contact with the Government, men whose near relatives are on the Government Bench, to reopen this ancient controversy on false pretences at a time of political truce. In the House of Lords the other day Lord Selborne moved a Resolution, which was accepted by a member of the Government, Lord Crawford. In the question I put to the right hon. Gentleman the other day to this House I was unfortunate enough to describe Lord Crawford as a subordinate member of the Ministry. I confess that I thought he was one of the numerous Directors or Controllers, or whatever they may be called, who form this conglomerate Government. No one knows who half the members of the Government are—

Or what posts they hold or what relations they bear to one another. I thought that the Noble Lord was an Under-Secretary or a Controller or a Director of one of the numerous Departments. I find, however, that he is the Lord Privy Seal. [An HON. MEMBER: "What is that?"] I do not know whether he has anything to do with submarines. The office used to be a very important one. I heard what this Noble Lord said myself, because I happened to be standing at the Bar of the House of Lords when he spoke. He said that he was authorised by the Government to say that in the opinion of the Government a case had been made out for the reconsideration of the Welsh Church Act. My right hon. Friend the chairman of the Welsh party (Sir Herbert Roberts) asked the right hon. Gentleman the other day whether it was true that such authority had been given to Lord Crawford, and the right hon. Gentleman threw his colleague overboard and said that no such authority had been given. Who authorised Lord Crawford to make that statement? It was accepted in the House of Lords as being an authorised statement on behalf of the Government. Lord Crawford started his speech by saying: who authorised Lord Crawford? This House is certainly entitled to know, so is the little Principality of Wales, who has shown her devotion to the Empire's cause, not only in this War but in every century of her connection with England. She is entitled to fair play and to know who was responsible for this statement, which was described by Lord Salisbury as being most satisfactory. This was the only Act passed under the Parliament Act, and apparently it has gone the way of all the others. The Parliament Act is smashed; therefore all the Tories in the House of Lords will be satisfied.

If no one authorised Lord Crawford to make this statement, what is the right hon. Gentleman going to do? There used to be a time in this country when the British Constitution was respected. The rules were regarded and observed with great care, and one of them was that if a Minister said that he had authority for making a statement on behalf of the Government of which he was a member, when, as a matter of fact, he had no such authority, he was politely told to go. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman, in spite of what has been said in the House of Lords and elsewhere, that the Welsh people are more determined than ever on this question, and that it will be an ill-day for him or any of his colleagues if they try to interfere with the wishes and aspirations of Wales in this matter. At the end of the War a very different spirit will have arisen. The breath of freedom has come from Russia and from America, and at a time when even in Germany they are asking for the disestablishment of the Lutheran Chuch, it is not very likely that people in this country, even English Churchmen, would allow the right hon. Gentleman to reopen this question which has been settled, or ought to have been settled, once and for all. If we are going to have national unity and national solidarity this is not the time to raise this question. Wales has done nobly in this War. Before Conscription came, and when the Army depended upon voluntary enlistment, Wales did better than any part of the country. She sent more volunteers to the Army than any other part of the country.

I will back Portsmouth at any time to beat any town in Wales.

If the hon. and gallant Gentleman is willing to talk treason and suggest that the Prime Minister is not to be relied upon, I have no more to say; but I say, on the authority of the Prime Minister, that the number of volunteers who enlisted in proportion to population was greater in Wales than even in Scotland. Wales has proved, not now only, but always, a loyal and contented people who always try to do all that in them lies to help England and help the Empire in every emergency which has been before them for four or five centuries. She is the oldest partner England has in this country. She is the one country that for 700 years has always fought side by side with Englishmen, and never in the whole of that time have the Welsh people advanced a separatist or particularist demand except this one for religious equality. It would be only fair for the right hon. Gentleman to say something to-day to reassure this loyal nation, which has always done its duty well, by a few well-chosen words and a little well-chosen action to show that not even the Lord Privy Seal should be allowed to steal a march on the Liberal Prime Minister.

I must say a word or two on the point raised by the hon. Member (Mr. MacNeill), who was almost as vehement as the hon. Member (Mr. Williams), in regard to his old friends the enemy Princes who have honours which he thinks they ought not to have. I am not at all sure that the difference between his views and mine, for example, is not mainly a question of degree. As regards what ought to be done, the Bill is being slowly, as is supposed—and too slowly, as the hon. Member thinks—passing through another Chamber. Though it is perfectly true that action could be taken without regard to that other Chamber, I am inclined to think those Members of the House who give any attention to the matter at all will agree with me that it is one subject, and the whole of it ought to be dealt with together. This is all a question of relative importance. I quite believe that it is absurd that there should be members of a legislative assembly entitled to come here—I do not know whether they are, but nominally entitled—who are in arms against us. But I say quite frankly that there is a different amount of value attached to these honours by different people. I know that there are some people who attach apparently more im- portance to the recognition of their value than to the value itself. I am not one of them, and for myself I say I would rather know that we have taken ten German soldiers who were capable of fighting against us and injuring our own people than discover that we have taken away these honours from enemy Princes. Then the hon. Member said the real reason for all this was that we are not democratic—that it was all owing to the aristocratic element in our Constitution. That is really absurd. As a matter of fact, none of our Allies, including the French Government and the French people, have proposed to take any steps similar to that which is proposed here. It is not because they did not recognise the logic of it. It is because, like me, they do not attach the same importance to it, and are more intent on beating the enemy than on making changes of that kind.

The right hon. Gentleman has, as I expected, confined his attention completely to the Peers and to the legislation proposed in reference to them which is now before the House of Lords. My contention—and it will not be denied—is that the Prime Minister is bound to recommend the Sovereign to remove these men, which he can do by a stroke of the pen.

I am very sorry that I have lost, if I ever had, the capacity of making people understand what I am trying to say because I began by saying that, though this part of the subject has no connection with the Bill, in reality it is one subject, and therefore it ought to be dealt with together, and whatever advice the Prime Minister gives should be given after the legislation has been passed.

As regards the subject raised by the hon. Member (Mr. Williams), he made one remark with which I entirely agree. He said he could not imagine anything more inappropriate than raising this subject now. I wish he had thought of that before he made his speech. He said also that this was a business proposition. and he appealed to me as a business man to regard it in that way. Then, although he is as much a business man as I am, he made what I thought the curious proposition that the value of money had nothing to do with it—that it had ceased to be a business proposition because money had risen in value. I am not sufficiently a business man to understand that point of view.

I am afraid I have lost the art of making myself understood in the same way as the right hon. Gentleman.

It was not an important part of his argument. I am not going to deal with his remarks about the constitution of his Government. It is pretty well known, and I think the House can gauge the real value of remarks of that kind. But there is one thing in connection with it that I should like to say. He speaks of the members of the Government saying different things. According to him such an event was absolutely unheard of in the old days of the British Constitution. It is not so long since I was sitting on the bench opposite, and I remember that I used to enjoy myself in pointing out to the then Prime Minister the difference in the views expressed by him and some of the more enterprising of his colleagues, including the present Prime Minister, so that that is not an entirely new situation so far as our Constitution is concerned. I really have nothing to say on the subject beyond what I said before. I am not going to go into the questions whether or not the Church has gained from the money point of view. I have not examined it. My hon. Friend tells me that. Some people take a different view. I am not going to judge between them. All I do say is that that does not settle the question. The money point is not the whole point. Many changes have to be made if the Church has to be disestablished. To do that we require the best services of the members of the Church. We know that many of them are abroad serving their country, and many of those who are at home are so much taken up with war work that they cannot give attention to this subject now. I have not the slightest doubt that if the War came to an end to-morrow, and if the Church were to be disestablished to-morrow, the Church would be in a most serious disadvantage from that point of view on account of the War. My hon. Friend says that the Church would be disestablished now but for the accident of war. But it is a very great accident, and we must all recognise that we have to take into account the results of that very unfortuate accident. I am not going to say anything beyond what I have already said, that the Government, as a Government, have not considered this question and have not given any pledge about it. What I did say when I spoke in the House before was perfectly plain. It was that, so far as I am concerned—and, I believe, so far as many of my colleagues are concerned—I do think, in spite of what my hon. Friend has said, that there is a, case for reconsideration. But I do not believe for a moment that this is the time, in the present crisis of the War, when the Government, as a Government, should be asked to come to any decision in regard to this matter. It may quite well happen when we feel that the time has come that we must come to a decision—I do not know what will happen then—that very likely there will be differences of opinion, though I hope not. I sincerely hope, in spite of the views expressed by my hon. Friend, and an attitude which on the whole took us more back to the old party feeling than I like; and I really do not believe that this country will stand our quarrelling on the old lines on these old subjects. I do not think so, and I am convinced that some way will be found which will not mean the renewal of this bitter dispute. All I say now is that the position of the Government is quite plain. As a Government we have come to no decision at all about this matter, but as members of the Government we are perfectly free when the time comes to take any action which we think right and necessary.

Republican Proposals

I noticed with some concern lately that I was getting out of touch with the Front Bench; on examining the matter I recognise this fact, which explains much. I am a thinker. To-day, however, I have been encouraged by no less a person than the Leader of the House himself. I might almost call him a recruit on account of the argument which he has recently put up in answer to my hon. Friend (Mr. Swift MacNeill), because if he in his exalted position begins to attack the worship of decorations, titles, and high-sounding names, and he has begun to let light and reason in upon these shams, then, I think, the whole system is beginning to totter to its base. The principle of titles never was anything but a sham. It never was anything but a means of Machiavellian government to lure men on by these petty gee-gaws of vanity which are more important to many than material gain. There- fore, I am glad to hear this broad democratic Republican principle announced from the Front Bench.

When I endeavoured to bring this question to the notice of the House before, I was met by one of those elusive tricks of a Government, solicitous to meet a question by avoiding it, and I was tempted to contrast that aspect with what I have noted in the realms of science in which I spend my free time. There the problem is brought forward in the clearest way. All men are invited to examine it even to its very foundations, and the more a true solution is examined the more it gains in strength and validity. When the question is hidden from the light, and when the advocates of a system seek to avoid discussion and shut out reason, then it is evident that there is something radically false with their whole position.

One of the great political facts of recent times has been the summoning of the Imperial Conference. We are in an unsettled state of public opinion, all sorts of ideas unheard of a few months ago are beginning to rise to the surface, and in that effervescence we are beginning to see something definite and material precipitated; and it concerns us not only in this House but in the Dominions as to what form that precipitation shall take. For my own part, I believe that the whole scheme of Imperialism which is so vaunted here finds little favour in the Dominions themselves. I can speak with a good deal of force, particularly with regard to Australia. In a recent issue of the "Age," which is the great popular paper there, I read in a leading article the other day a statement that opinion in Australia was almost unanimously against Imperial Federation. Would it not be extraordinary—when we regard the main characteristics of this great world War, and see that it is a fight against German Imperialism ranging on the opposite side to the great ideals of liberty, freedom, and the progress of civilisation—if the outcome of that War should be that, having disposed of German Imperialism, we were to set up in its place another kind of Imperialism only recommended in comparison with German Imperialism by the fact that all its fibres were weakened and the whole system degenerated.

I tried to-day to bring the matter forcibly to the attention of the House with reference to the use of the word "Empire." I dare say many hon. Members may think that a very small matter, and not of great importance; but I would call their attention to this fact, that the pretext on which this country entered into war with South Africa was based on the use of a word of a somewhat similar kind which, by inadvertence, had been allowed to slip into an official document, and that was the word suzerainty. The Boers were persuaded that the word suzerainty had no meaning, and that it was not worth contending about, but years afterwards that word was made the basis of the action of this country, and used as the justification of this country for the seizure of their territory. The usual practice is to introduce a word which is indefensible, and to get it accepted by custom, and then, when the meaning of that word is contested afterwards, to say that it has been sanctioned by usage. That is the reason why I object to the introduction of the word "Empire" to-day, because these great condominions are not an Empire, and I believe that the principle of Empire is especially obnoxious to the Dominions themselves.

Recently we had an opportunity of either hearing or hearing about a great historic speech by my friend General Smuts. I say friend because we were comrades in arms, but I allow no feeling to stand in my way when great principles of this kind are at stake, and I say the arguments advanced by General Smuts in favour of that system which he was advocating were ridiculous and baseless. In fact. I was reminded of an old subterfuge of John Bright—which could hardly be suspected in a Quaker—of getting an opponent, or a supposed opponent, to put up weak and baseless arguments so that he could have the opportunity of knocking them down. After hearing these arguments of General Smuts, I was forced to the conviction that secretly he was of the same opinion as myself, and he was putting forward these silly arguments in order to show the hollowness of the whole position. He said that an hereditary system of presidency or royalty was necessary in this case, that it would be impossible to elect one head of all these great Dominions. General Smuts is too clever a man to have evolved such an idea out of his own head, but he has come into circles where these ideas prevail, where they satisfy the brains of those who use them, and he has become hypnotised in the atmosphere in which he now exists. Just imagine, only a few short years ago—

I do not think that the hon. Member can deal with a subject of that kind; he can only refer to matters of administration under the control of His Majesty's Government.

I will submit this. The Imperial Conference is a fact the results of which have impinged again and again on the proceedings of this very House. We have had the Imperial Conference cited again and again. We have had this speech cited. We have had suggestions which should be promulgated all over the world, those suggestions have been made by hon. Members in Debate in this House, and they have been carried into effect. It has become part of the general politics of this House. Surely I am entitled to say a word or two in that regard, especially in a matter of such material importance, a matter which is discussed day by day in all references to the War, and I submit that I may proceed with the examination of this question in another aspect.

:Does the hon. Member wish to refer to the action of the Government in reference to the Imperial Conference?

Yes. I refer to it simply because of the action of the Secretary of State for the Colonies in refusing to allow my recent proposal to be submitted to that Conference, though I hope eventually to be able to submit the very same proposal to this House. The main argument of General Smuts is ridiculous, for this reason. He said it would be impossible with Dominions so far apart to have one common elected ruler, and I say that a few months ago even the Orkney Islands, which form part of the United Kingdom, were far more separated, at any rate in point of time, from the centre of government here than the remotest Dominion is now from this country. That argument is absurd to the East degree, because in the early days of the Constitution of the United States of America some of the States in the West were in every sense, except perhaps in actual mileage, far more separate and remote from the Eastern States than any one part of the British Dominions now is from any other. To show the absurdity of these arguments, I submit it would be quite possible to have on one day a General Election in all the Dominions all over the world, and for the result of that election to be communicated to this country on the following day.

But, further, even if that argument were perfectly valid, that would not destroy my position in the smallest degree, because there is no necessity whatever to have one general head. The whole basis of my proposal was that each one of these great Dominions should be perfectly free—preferably, in my opinion, as a Republic—but with complete liberty to each one of the Dominions to frame its own kind of government, and that they should meet together from time to time to discuss matters of mutual interest, particularly of muual defence; and there is no more need in those circumstances to have one permanent head than it has been found necessary for France and England, in conducting affairs of such vital moment as they are doing now, to have one common ruler to preside over all their deliberations. That is an argument which is absurd to the last degree.

Then another favourite argument with those who really do not think, but who catch at fashionable passwords of the moment in order to save themselves that trouble, is that we are now really living in a "Crowned Republic." Can you imagine a Republic where one-half of the Legislature is formed in a permanent way without consulting the people at all, and believe in a doctrine so ridiculous that the keystone of all the arch of democratic government should be this crowned head incarnating the hereditary principle which General Smuts thinks so essential to keep all the Allies together? If he says that as a mere play of words, then I retort in this way: If you are in favour of a Crowned Republic. I am in favour of a modern monarchy. What I mean by a modern monarchy is this, that although we have a monarch, that monarch shall be elected by the people, and that monarch shall receive his mandate from legislative assemblies, also entirely elected by the people. And if you retort, "Why, that is pure Republicanism," I say, "Precisely. Why do you use this word 'Republicanism' if you do not feel that Republicanism has merit? You feel yourselves that it has such a great and shining merit that you must shelter your own system by hiding within its folds."

The other day I was reading Aristotie on this subject, and what struck me most in the great Greek was his extraordinary modernity. I was almost tempted to think that he had been reading George Bernard Shaw himself, except that he is even more audacious than that great exponent of modern ideas. There is one passage in which he states, not as if he were saying anything extraordinary, but as if he were mentioning something as plain as an axiom in Euclid, that it would be absurd always to take our King from one family. But this rule of Aristotle, which appeals to our common sense, is the very foundation of my position, and I say that what I am thinking to-day in this matter Australia will think to-morrow and all other Dominions the day after, and this country, I hope, not too late. This is not a destructive doctrine. It is a conservative doctrine, because that which General Smuts has put forth as the keystone of the arch is really the wedge that will drive all the Dominions asunder. In this great War, where the blunders of miscalculation and of want of logic redound in the losses of hundreds of thousands of brave men, the time is surely coming when we may make an effort in ourselves to emerge out of the old atmosphere of hypocrisy, of make-believe, and of pretence in which we are accustomed to live, even in this House. In saying this I am inspired by a great ideal. I have worked out many future developments which I will not now give, but I will say that I see very clearly the main lines of the new system. We are arriving at a new day, at a new epoch. Even out of the bloody glare of this War we are beginning to see arise the rosy fingers of the dawn, and clearly I behold the structure arising founded on sanity, logic, truth—after all, the one great ideal is truth—that will produce a greater humanity, stronger and more cohesive, working not for mutual destruction but for the advance of civilisation in an ever-broadening way towards that great Ideal which is ever hovering above our eyes.

Industrial Unrest

I should like to say at once that I am glad the Government have appointed a Committee to inquire into the grievances of the engineering trade, but I regret they did not recognise the necessity of that step earlier in the year. If they had done so, or if they had had someone in the Munitions Department who could have tabulated the grievances of the men at the outset, with a view to their being inquired into, you would have had a settlement long ago—certainly if you had done then what you have decided to do to-day. In connection with the grievances of the men, I do not think that the Government quite grasp the real cause of the unrest. It is said that the officials of the trade unions lost control of the members of the unions, but why was that? It is a very important fact in connection with these disputes that the officials lost control of the men because the executive councils of some of the societies had entered into arrangements with the Government and Government Departments without consulting the men at all. The men were bound by certain conditions without their having had the opportunity of deciding by vote whether or not they accepted those conditions, and, therefore, almost ever since the War commenced there has been a kind of dual control of the workmen in the munition works. The men have been in doubt whether to observe the rules of their society or whether to observe the Regulations issued under the Act of Parliament. Sometimes the officials have not been able to guide them or to tell them whether they ought to observe the rules of the society or whether they ought to observe the Regulations issued under the Munitions Act.

I trust that any Committee which is formed will include members whose experience and knowledge can be made use of. Some arguments are in favour and some against having a large number of areas, but I would point out that when the Sub-Commissioners have finished their labour, representatives from each of the Sub-commissions should meet as one Commission, and compare notes, with the view, if possible, of arriving at a unanimous recommendation as to what ought to be done to prevent these disputes in future. I think if that were done good would result from the point of view of the Commission. I would like to make this appeal to the Board of Trade, or to the representatives of the Ministry of Munitions. I am receiving letters, as I dare say other Members are, complaining about the difficulty the workers have in getting from their work to their homes. One letter from a worker says that he has not been able to get home for over nine months, the railway fares being prohibitive. I would suggest to the Department of the Board of Trade that the fact of these men being unable to get to their homes for months and months is one which should be carefully considered with the object of either giving the workmen passes or seeing that the railway fares are reduced. That is one of the difficulties under which the men work—their inability to get home occasionally to see their wives and families. It is not a single issue, but an accumulation of grievances, some small and some large, which have led to the unrest and to disputes. I think the time has come when the Board of Trade and the Munitions Department should consult with each other in order that they may see their way to giving the workers better and greater facilities to return to their homes for a few days. I bring that to the attention of the two Departments, more especially that the holiday time is now near. I believe that if you meet the men in a fair and equitable spirit on this and other questions, you will do much to remove the cause of unrest and discontent in their minds.

I had intended to speak on the labour situation as it has been left, but I welcome the proposed inquiry which is going to be made. I had an interview three or four nights ago, the report of which was published in the "Evening News." I very strongly urged in that interview that some investigation should be made into the matters of grievance, and that things should not be allowed to settle down until once again they flare up, without trying to ascertain the various causes which have been at work. I also said in that interview that a great deal of the usefulness of the investigation depends upon the people who are to make the inquiry. They must be men who understand something of what is really going on, and I would strongly suggest that so far as possible those appointed should not be members of this House at all. The closer the members of that Commission are to the workpeople in the shops and factories the better it will be. There are trade union leaders, such as Mr. Bellamy, of the railwaymen, and Mr. Robert Smillie, of the miners, who would be able to make a thorough investigation of this kind and to really probe the discontent and dissatisfaction. I suggest that the Government in the meantime should also allow, in the newspapers and elsewhere, free discussion of these important matters. The bad policy of suppression has had a great deal to do with the trouble which has been experienced. It did not help to minimise that trouble, but made it worse. I honestly hope that policy will be departed from and that some attempt will be made to make clear what is really going on. I am not going into the question of the recent trouble and the long delay which occurred in the Rochdale dispute of about seven weeks—a dispute that the Government, if they had taken earlier steps, could have ended straight away. Not much purpose, however, is served by recalling those troubles. Put now we have got a chance of thrashing matters out, after the thunderstorm which has just passed, and my belief is that the future largely depends on the lines of the policy which the Government will take as to whether these troubles will recur or whether we will be able to secure a larger amount of confidence and support. I hope that the Commission which is going to be appointed will be in a position to investigate food profiteering, which is an element in labour unrest.

Very large conferences are being held all over the country on that question, and I find that journals like the "Pall Mall Gazette" are using language quite as strong as any Labour man would use in regard to what is going on. You find also in the Miners' Federation, representing something like a million members, that they are making strong representations to the Government on the matter. Further, you find that there is a co-operative society in Wales which is prevented from getting flour by the wholesale millers, because they propose to sell the quartern loaf at 9d., instead of 1s., like other bakers. It is because they are going to sell a 4 lb. loaf at 9d. that this co-operative society are debarred from getting flour. That is a matter which requires attention at the present time. That is only one of many matters. I have spoken over and over again in this House on the question of the increasing measure of industrial compulsion. I want the Government to investigate how the status of labour has been affected by the Munitions Act and the Defence of the Realm Act and the Military Service Acts, one piled on top of the other, and going on recently to threats of complete industrial compulsion. In the scheme of National Service the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. A. Henderson) did infinite harm by going about the country and at meetings he addressed on the question of National Service putting forward the threat that if that scheme was not successful the Government was going to introduce industrial compulsion. So far from winning the hearts of the workpeople to a scheme by that means, you may do a great deal of harm. I do not know whether you saved the country from industrial compulsion by fixing up about 9,000 people with jobs at a cost of £100,000, but certain it is, at any rate, that we do not hear so much of that now.

4.0 P.M.

I am convinced if any good is to be done that certain of the more penal features of the Munitions Act must be modified. Large numbers of men and women are being disaffected and are spreading disaffection owing to the treatment they receive under that Act. I have got in my hand a card issued each week to the workers in a factory at Coventry where a number of girls are employed and get a wage of 16s. 6d. per week. They are liable to a number of deductions which are set forth on the card, but I confess when I came to one item I was puzzled. It was munitions tribunal fines. People are being fined with so much regularity by the tribunals that they actually provide for the occasion on the cards. I urge very strongly that there must be some machinery for the speedy settlement of troubles, and you must get machinery by which those troubles will be settled before they reach a head, as, if you could deal with that at the start, you would very often prevent them reaching the heat and passion which they do if allowed to go on. I am convinced, personally, there is over-centralisation and too much attempt to regulate everything from Whitehall. Employers just as much as workpeople complain of this. If you had joint committees of employers and employed to go into these matters you would get far more good done and grievances removed. As a result of the introduction of certain machines, something in the nature of an industrial revolution has been carried out in many of the controlled works. In view of that there is bound to be some ferment, and I do hope attempts may be made to deal with it.

There is one last point to which I wish to allude. There is no doubt at all that recently, in certain of the centres, secret Government agents, paid by Government money, have been going about amongst the munition workers. These secret agents —and I have evidence in my possession as to this—have been playing the part of the provocative agent and have been putting it into the heads of some of these munition workers about strikes and revolutions, and so on. These men are paid by the Government, as far as one can gather, to do this kind of thing. One very sinister figure which appears again and again is that of a man called Alec Gordon. He has been to Leicester—and in this I hope the Solicitor-General will be interested—and has been to Sheffield and has been to Liverpool and has been to Coventry. He appears to be the same man who appeared in the case which many of us will remember, the case with many elements of melodrama, poison darts, and so on. You had in that case a witness whose evidence was taken for the first time in an English Court of justice without producing the witness. It was admitted that this man had gone down to put certain ideas into the heads of very foolish and perhaps wicked people in Derby. This man has been carrying on the same kind of work among munition workers, telling them to do this, that, or the other, that they ought to make a revolution, and all the rest of it, and apparently doing it for the purpose of ascertaining what they will say in reply, and apparently secret reports are being supplied to one or other of the Government Departments. I say to the Government, with this idea of taking us back to the old Russia which has been swept away, that if the desire is to make movements that are insurrectionary, subterranean, and underground, they cannot go a better way to work than that. Let all these matters be brought to the light. Let all the facts in Government possession be brought to the light—intercepted letters and the rest. Let us get to grips with the whole problem. I believe if that is done, and if you begin to restore some measure of confidence and some measure of freedom, you will go forward along the lines of safety, in place of going on a very dark and sinister path so far as the Government is concerned.

Member for South Longford

The matter I want to bring under the notice of the House is one of privilege. I brought up this matter on the 17th May, and made out then what I consider to be a strong case to show that the hon. Member for South Longford is the victim of a gross breach both of law and of his privilege as a Member of this House. I moved for certain documents to prove whether he was or not. Until this House has before it official documents showing that he has been convicted of felony by a competent Court, we are not entitled to assume that he has been so convicted. Consequently I moved for a record of his trial, and this is the reply which I received to-day from the Attorney-General: between election before imprisonment and imprisonment before election, so far as then appeared to be necessary. I did not think laboured arguments on that point necessary. First, because I assumed that this House would be guided not exclusively by precedents, but to some extent by reason and justice, and secondly, because I believed that in all the cases spoken of as precedents on this subject, although arrest is mentioned, it is explanatory, and for the purpose of fixing the commencement of the detention, and that the detention itself, the restraint, being the substantive offence, is the real breach of privilege.

It seems to me that this must be so. Arrest is the mere action of the moment. If undone the next moment, and not followed by detention, it is only a technical offence and no serious breach of privilege. Detention is the substantive offence, and this can be show n in many ways. It will be admitted that if a Member of this House walked into this House, and we all knew that he was free to come in and go out as he liked, and attempted to complain to the House that he had some time before been arrested, he would probably hear jokes at his expense, and Mr. Speaker would invite the House to proceed to the next business. Although there would have been arrest, there would be no detention, and therefore no substantive breach of privilege. On the other hand there are many possible ways in which detention and breach of privilege by detention might occur without any arrest. I need only suppose the case of a Member of Parliament dropped from an aeroplane into a fishing boat at sea, and the fisherman, knowing whom he had on board, persistently refused to bring him to land. Persistence in that conduct would certainly be a breach of privilege, although there had been no arrest. It follows that detention, unless for a felony, so found by a competent court, is a breach of the privilege of Parliament, and the only substantive breach without any reference to or dependence on arrest. If that is so, the Member for South Longford is entitled to protection against this breach of privilege. If, as I think probable, Mr. Speaker has not found any instance of a Member of Parliament denied the advantage of Parliamentary privilege who was convicted by a secret court-martial, at a time when the writ of habeas corpus was suspended, Mr. McGuinness is clearly taken out of all the classes of cases hitherto dealt with, and it becomes absolutely necessary in consequence to make a new precedent in which he is entitled to the advantage arising from his case being wholly exceptional in these important respects. It remains for me to ask whether, acting to-day as the official guardian of the rights of Members of Parliament in this House—

rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

(seated and covered): On a point of privilege and Order, I ask you whether you rule to-day, for the first time in the whole history of this British Parliament, that a matter of privilege before the House is to be closured and gagged. Do you rule that out? If you do not, I will proceed.

On a point of Order. Did you rule that the Division was to proceed, or that the hon. Member could go on?

Do you rule, for the first time in the history of this Parliament, that a question of privilege—the privilege of an absent Member—is to be closured and gagged? [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"] The question is one of privilege. I will bring the matter before Mr. Speaker on the first day the House sits again.

The House divided: Ayes, 104; Noes, 13.

Division No. 41.]

AYES.

[4.15 p.m.

Ainsworth, Sir John Stirling

Beauchamp, Sir Edward

Broughton, Urban Hanlon

Amery, L. C. M. S.

Bellairs, Commander C. W.

Bryce, J. Annan

Baird, John Lawrence

Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

Bull, Sir William James

Baldwin, Stanley

Blair, Reginald

Burdett-Coutts, William

Bathurst, Col. Hon. A. B. (Glouc., E.)

Blake, Sir Francis Douglas

Butcher, John George

Bathurst, Capt. C. (Wilts, Wilton)

Bridgemen, William Clive

Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir Fredk. (Prestwich)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A.

Hinds, John

Pratt, J. W.

Clyde, James Avon

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Pretyman, Ernest George

Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon)

Horne, Edgar

Prothere, Rt. Hon. Rowland Edmund

Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Rees, G. C. (Carnarvonshire, Arton)

Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole

Hunt, Major Rowland

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

Craig, Col. James (Down, E.)

Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney)

Rowlands, James

Craik, Sir Henry

Kellaway, Frederick George

Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth)

Croft, Brigadier-General Henry Page

Kerry, Earl of

Shortt, Edward

Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Colonel R.

Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward

Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)

Duncan, C. (Barrow-In-Furness)

Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

Thorne, William (West Ham)

Fell, Arthur

Maclean, Rt. Hon. Donald

Turton, Edmund Russborough

Fisher, Rt. Hon. H. A. L. (Hallam)

Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

Fisher Rt. Hon. W. Hayes (Fulham)

Macpherson, James Ian

Ward, Arnold S. (Herts, Watford)

Forster, Henry William

Meux, Hon. Sir Hedworth

Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T.

Gibbs, Col. George Abraham

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred

Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

Gilbert, J. D.

Morgan, George Hay

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Goulding, Sir Edward Alfred

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

Grant, James Augustus

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Williams, Col. Sir Robert (Dorset, W.)

Greenwood, Sir G. G. (Peterborough)

Nield, Herbert

Wilson, Lt.-Cl. Sir M.(Beth'I Green,S.W.)

Greenwood, Sir Hamar (Sunderland)

Norman, Sir Henry

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Greig, Colonel James William

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Worthington Evans, Major Sir L.

Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Yate, Colonel C. E.

Harris, Rt. Hon. F. L. (Worcester, E.)

O'Neill, Capt. Hon. H. (Antrim, Mid)

Yeo, Alfred William

Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

Paget, Almeric Hugh

Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

Partington, Hon. Oswald

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Hewart, Sir Gordon

Pearce, Sir Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Lord Edmund Talbot and Captain

Hewins, William Albert Samuel

Pollock, Ernest Murray

Guest.

NOES.

Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

Martin, Joseph

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.)

Ginnell, Laurence

Outhwaite, R. L.

Williams, Liewelyn (Carmarthen)

King, Joseph

Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

Lamb, Sir Ernest Henry

Snowden, Philip

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Pringle and Mr. Anderson.

Lynch, Arthur Alfred

Question put accordingly, "That this House do now adjourn till Tuesday, the 5th June."

The House divided: Ayes, 109; Noes, 10.

Division No. 42.]

AYES.

[4.20 p.m.

Ainsworth, Sir John Stirling

Gilbert, J. D.

O'Neill, Capt. Hon. H. (Antrim, Mid)

Amery, L. C. M. S.

Goldman, Charles Sydney

Paget, Almeric Hugh

Baird, John Lawrence

Goulding, Sir Edward Alfred

Partington, Hon. Oswald

Baldwin, Stanley

Grant, J. A.

Pearce, Sir Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Bathurst, Col. Hon. A. B. (Glouc., E.)

Greenwood, Sir G. G. (Peterborough)

Pollock, Ernest Murray

Bathurst, Capt. C. (Wilts, Wilton)

Greenwood, Sir Hamar (Sunderland)

Pratt, J. W.

Beauchamp, Sir Edward

Greig, Colonel J. W.

Pretyman, Ernest George

Bellairs, Commander C. W.

Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

Prothero, Rt. Hon. Rowland Edmund

Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

Harris, Rt. Hon. F. L. (Worcester, E.)

Rees, G. C. (Carnarvonshire, Arfon)

Blair, Reginald

Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Blake, Sir Francis Douglas

Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

Bridgeman, William Clive

Hewart, Sir Gordon

Rowlands, James

Broughton, Urban Hanlon

Hewins, William Albert Samuel

Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth)

Bryce, John Annan

Hinds, John

Shortt, Edward

Bull, Sir William James

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

Burdett-Coutts, William

Horne, Edgar

Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

Butcher, John George

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)

Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir Fdk. (Prestwich)

Hunt, Major Rowland

Thorne, William (West Ham)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A.

Jacobsen, Thomas Owen

Turton, Edmund R.

Clyde, James Avon

Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon)

Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney)

Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

Kellaway, Frederick George

Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T.

Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole

Law, Rt. Hon. A. Boner (Bootle)

Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Colonel A. R.

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Craig, Colonel James (Down, E.)

Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

Cralk, Sir Henry

Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

Williams, Col. Sir Robert (Dorset, W.)

Croft, Brigadier-General Henry Page

Maclean, Rt. Hon. Donald

Wilson, Lt.-Cl. Sir M.(Beth'l Green, S.W.)

Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

Macpherson, James Ian

Wing, Thomas Edward

Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

Meux, Hon. Sir Hedworth

Wolmer, Viscount

Denniss, E. R. B.

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred

Worthington Evans, Major Sir L.

Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward

Morgan, George Hay

Yate, Colonel C. E.

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Yeo, Alfred William

Fell, Arthur

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Fisher, Rt. Hon. H. A. L. (Hallam)

Nield, Herbert

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Fisher Rt. Hon. W. Hayes (Fulham)

Norman, Sir Henry

Lord Edmund Talbot and Captain

Forster, Henry William

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Guest.

Gibbs, Col. George Abraham

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

NOES.

Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

Lynch, Arthur Alfred

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Ginnell, Laurence

Martin, Joseph

King, Joseph

Outhwaite, R. L.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

Lamb, Sir Ernest Henry

Snowden, Philip

Pringle and Mr. Anderson.

Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-eight minutes after Four o'clock, until Tuesday, 5th June.

Petitions Presented During the Week

The following Petitions were Presented during the week and ordered to lie upon the Table:—

Monday

Intoxicating Liquors (Prohibition during the Period of the War and Demobilisation),—Petitions for legislation, from Glasgow, Kilbarchan, and Peterhead.

Tuesday

Intoxicating Liquors (Prohibition during the Period of the War and Demobilisation),—Petitions for legislation, from Balfron and Logie.

Wednesday

Isle of Man,—Petition from inhabitants of the Isle of Man for redress of grievances.

Thursday

Intoxicating Liquors (Prohibition during the Period of the War and Demobilisation),—Petition from Bruan Wick, for legislation.