House of Commons
Tuesday, July 17, 1917
Naval and Marine Pay and Pensions Act, 1865
Copy presented of Order in Council, dated 2nd July, 1917, approving a Memorial of the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Papers laid upon the Table by the CLERK OF THE HOUSE:—
1. Public Records (Local Government Board),—Copy of First Schedule containing a list and particulars of classes of Documents existing or accruing in the Office of the Local Government Board which are not considered of sufficient public value to justify their preservation in the Public Record Office [by Act];
2. Public Records (County Courts),—Copy of Schedule containing a list and particulars of classes of Documents existing or accruing in the County Courts which are not considered of sufficient public value to justify their preservation in the Public Record Office [by Act]:
3. Lunacy,—Copy of Return to the Lord Chancellor of the number of Visits made and the number of Patients seen by the several Commissioners in Lunacy during the six months ending on 30th June, 1917 [by Act].
Oral Answers to Questions
War
Submarine Warfare (Neutral Territorial Waters)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give any particulars as to the numbers of British, Allied, and neutral shipping arrested or attacked by German vessels in neutral territorial waters since the beginning of the year, especially in regard to Spanish waters; and what action the Allies propose to take?
As far as my information goes, the number of such incidents, believed on evidence furnished by masters and crews to have taken place in Spanish territorial waters, is upwards of twenty, and all these have occurred since 1st April. I do not know that any cases have been actually established as regards the territorial waters of other countries.
The most serious representations have been addressed to the Spanish Government, who assure us that they will do all in their power to prevent the violation of their territorial waters. They have formally proclaimed the exclusion of submarines from territorial waters and from harbours.
With regard to Holland, is the Noble Lord aware that a long time ago I directed attention to the estuary of the Ems River, and to paragraphs in the Dutch Press suggesting that Germany has repeatedly violated Dutch territorial waters in the Ems River?
The matter has not been lost sight of.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware of the enemy trade in enemy and neutral shipping that passes along Danish and Dutch territorial waters, some of it under armed convoy; and whether the Allied Governments propose to use. their naval superiority to bring this trade to an end?
My hon. and gallant Friend will no doubt see that this question is not one which can be discussed by question and answer.
I give notice that I will raise this and other naval questions on the Vote of Credit.
Greece
Form of Government
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, with a view to associate both Russia and the United States in vital decisions affecting the campaign in the Balkans, he will take steps, consistent with treaties involving the co-operation of Greece with the Allies, to secure that the Greek people may choose their own form of government, even to the exclusion of a king bound in ties of close relationship to the Kaiser?
Any proposal for the future government of Greece should, in my opinion, come from the Greek Government and people, and not from His Majesty's Government.
Are not the Allies concerned in this matter, as being guarantors of the Greek nation and of the constitutional action of the King?
Are we to take it that Great Britain is the only monarchy amongst the Allies that is seeking to retain Greece as a monarchy?
No; the hon. Member must not take anything of the kind.
Allied Troops
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give information concerning the present position in Greece; whether Allied troops are to be withdrawn; whether Corfu is to be handed over to the Greek Government completely; whether M. Jonnart is still the Commissioner for the Allies and in Greece; and whether an early Conference of the Allies will be held as suggested by the Russian Government?
Greece is at present in process of settling down to a constitutional regime after the abnormal events of the last two years. I do not think anything would be gained by discussing points of detail during this period of transition.
Questions
Diplomatic Service (Reforms)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the influence of diplomacy in the course of the War, he will reconsider his decision to postpone reforms in the Diplomatic Service till after the War; and whether, in regard to the higher positions of the Service, and with particular reference to the changed state of affairs in Russia, he will open the way to the talents of men alive to new ideas and imbued with the aspirations for liberty that now animate Europe?
The consideration of reforms in the Diplomatic Service is being proceeded with, but it is obvious that, speaking generally, candidates will not be available till the end of the War. As to the last part of the question the highest posts in the Diplomatic Service have always been open to those best qualified for them, whether members of that service or not. As far as Russia is concerned we are fortunate in having a representative of conspicuous open-mindedness, ability and courage.
Has not the Secretary of State himself made a break with happy results in this matter, and should not that example be widened and followed elsewhere?
I do not think there is anything novel in the appointment I have already indicated in the answer of people outside the Diplomatic Service to the highest posts in the Diplomatic Service.
China (Monarchist Rising)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any official information showing that the monarchist rising in China was fomented by German money.
We have various reports that the Manchu restoration was financed by the Germans but they have never been properly substantiated.
Will the Noble Lord probe into the matter, because it is of some importance for future guidance?
Army Punishments
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he is aware that Private Ernest Richard Bowyer, No. 290739, l/7th Battalion Welsh Regiment, belonging to North Salford, but now stationed at Marton Hall, Yorkshire, has lately been punished by being confined to barracks without pay for one month and given field punishment No. 1, which means being handcuffed and tied to a tree for two hours each day; whether he is aware that this young soldier is only sixteen years of age and three months, and has served a year with the Colours, and that his offence was that he overstayed his first leave; and whether he will take steps to prevent punishments of these kinds to lads of sixteen years of age?
I am sorry that I have not yet been able to complete the inquiries which have been instituted into this case. There are several points needing investigation. I will let my hon. Friend know the result as soon as I can.
Knockaloe Internment Camp
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is able to give information concerning the Knock-aloe Internment Camp; who is the commandant; what salary does he receive; whether any and, if so, how many British medical officers are employed to attend on the prisoners or interned persons; and: what total annual emoluments do these doctors receive?
My hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this. The commandant receives the pay of his rank in the Army with extra duty pay. The post is at present vacant. The total pay of the late commandant, Lieutenant-Colonel Panzera, was £511 per annum. There are seven whole-time and four part-time British medical officers. The total of their salaries is approximately £4,350. In addition the whole-time officers receive free quarters and free messing and the part-time officers travelling expenses.
Are there not some German medical officers actually interned who might be used to attend upon their compatriots and so set free our medical men?
Will the hon. Member please give notice?
Prisoners of War (Medical Men)
asked (1) the Undersecretary of State for War whether he is aware that men with full medical qualifications are kept as prisoners of war in their camp; whether he will so reorganise the medical service of prisoners' camps that enemy alien doctors may attend on enemy alien prisoners, thus setting free British, doctors for other needed service; (2) the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that a number of alien enemies with full medical qualifications are interned; and whether he will-use these men to attend on their compatriots among prisoners, thus liberating. British doctors for attendance on British, civilians or soldiers?
I understand that these doctors have been employed to a certain extent, but not with very satisfactory results. It is not considered desirable to reorganise the medical service as suggested.
I suppose that means they have been partially satisfactory. Could" not they be given a further trial, under-possibly improved conditions, thus setting-free quite a number of our own doctors?
Is it not generally the case that medical duties at these camps are performed by local medical men, who come in for the purpose, without any expense to the State?
Yes.
Royal Welsh Fusiliers
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he will release for publication the favourable Report made on the Royal Welsh? Fusiliers in the recent fighting, seeing-that the Report is already known to some?
:I would refer my hon. Friend to my answer to his question-on the same subject on the 10th instant. It has always been left to the local Commander-in-Chief to use his own judgment: as to what units should be specially mentioned.
:Is there any reason why the bravery of the Welsh troops cannot be made public in the House of Commons, as in the ease of the Scottish and London regiments?
I understand in this case permission was given to the local" commanding officer to publish the fact locally, but not to publish it throughout the country-. Unfortunately, it got into the local Press. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I am only asserting the general principle-that it has been left to the Commander-in- Chief to use his own judgment as to what troops should be specially mentioned and what particular battalions of a regiment.
What possible loss would it be to the national interest to publish an account of the conduct of a certain regiment? It has already been made known in the locality, Cannot it be given. to the local Press and the newspapers of the country?
Is this a local or a national war?
The principle must remain the same. It must be left to the local Commander-in-Chief to say which battalion should be mentioned.
House Commandeered
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been drawn to the case of Mr. John Anwyl, of Preston Hall Farm, near Shrewsbury, who bought a horse at an open sale on 15th March for £111 6s., and which was commandeered on 12th May for £80, and when Mr. Anwyl put his case before the War Office he was unable to get any help towards the loss of £31; and, if so, can he now give consideration to the appeal?
Mr. Anwyl's solicitors have served the Treasury solicitor with a notice of application under the Army Act for 18th July, when the County Court judge, at Welsh-pool, will decide the case.
Enemy Air Raids
Improved Defences
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether, on the occasion of the last raid by German aeroplanes over London, an estimate was made by the help of range-finders of the height of any of the aeroplanes; and, if so, what were the maximum and minimum heights?
Yes; but by height-finders, not range-finders. The heights recorded were from 12,500 to 15,000 feet.
Is it not a fact that the majority of the English pilots who viewed this from the ground assert that the height was less than 6,000 feet?
No; it is not.
Has the hon. Gentleman given the minimum height in those figures?
12,500 feet.
Where does the hon. Gentleman get those figures from? Is it from the people who were criminally negligent in the defence of London or from unbiassed observers?
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he can state from the information of officers present the height from which Lieutenant W. G. Salmon, Royal Flying Corps, fell when attacking the German air squadron over Dartford?
There is no information from eye-witnesses, but it is probable that the fight took place at over 12,000 feet.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the officers of this corps who were present assert that he fell from 2,000 feet, and, if so, on what ground did they give that information to the coroner?
As I have said, the information which we have at the Foreign Office is that it is probable that a fight took place at over 12,000 feet.
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he has collected the information necessary to enable him to give the number of casualties, fatal and otherwise, caused by our own shell-fire on the occasion of the recent air raid; and whether, in the event of any disclosure not being in the public interest, he would furnish the same to hon. Members for their private information?
My hon. friend has asked me to reply to this question. I shall have no objection to showing the figures to hon. Members if they desire to see them. I may say that the casualties caused by our own gun-fire are not so numerous as has been suggested in some quarters, but they were sufficiently serious to emphasise the great importance of taking cover when the anti-aircraft guns are in action.
Does that mean that the Government do not intend to publish the full number of casualties, and that they Can only be ascertained if we wish to see them privately?
These casualties will not be published, but if the hon. Member cares to see them I will show them to him.
If the casualties have taken place, what is the objection to our knowing how many of our own people have been killed by our own guns?
Can the hon. Gentleman say if the list of casualties given in the statement issued by the Press Bureau is not therefore correct, and that we cannot ascertain whether it is correct unless we see privately the figures which the hon. Gentleman has got?
The hon. Member must take my answer as I have given it. If he cares to see the numbers of these particular cases I will show them to him or to any other hon. Member.
Is this not one of those occasions in which the complete facts will have the best effect on public opinion?
I will consult my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary again. Perhaps the hon. Member will put down a question.
Is it not a fact that the inquests themselves are greater in number than the officially reported casualties?
No.
asked whether any military inquiry has been held into the reasons which permitted the enemy air squadrons raiding this country to return unchallenged and unchecked on Saturday, 7th July?
The enemy aircraft did not return after the raid on 7th July "unchallenged and unchecked," and details of the number of hostile machines which were brought down have been already announced. No military Court of inquiry has been held into the circumstances of the raid but as is always the case the preparations to meet it and the action taken have been carefully investigated with a view to improving the defence arrangements.
In view of the fact that this is not the Report of a Commission, but that it is an ocular demonstration of inefficiency for every citizen of London to-witness, can the hon. Gentleman see his-way clear to institute some Court of inquiry to ascertain who is responsible for-this utter lack of defence?
Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the machines brought down in the North Sea by the Royal Naval airmen were part of the fleet of German machines that reached London?
I must have-notice of that question.
My hon. Friend refers to-the machines that were brought down; is it true that only one was brought down?
I am answering a question on that point later.
asked the Prime Minister whether he can give the country the assurances that our air defences, both, as regards air-craft guns, efficiency of gunners, and air squadrons have been reorganised and improved since the occasion of the last enemy air-raid over England?
The answer is in the affirmative.
In view of the fact that this answer is a condemnation of past administration, will the right hon. Gentleman make some inquiry into the matter?
That is argumentative.
Military Service
Conscientious Objectors
asked the Undersecretary for War whether all the five conscientious objectors, Garland, Middle-ton, Price, Keighley, and Davies, have been returned to England?
The answer is in the affirmative.
asked the Secretary for Scotland, with regard to the three Glasgow conscientious objectors,. James McLeish, James Greig, and George Campbell, who, after undergoing a sentence of twenty-eight days' detention at Perth for not complying with orders, were tried by court-martial at Craigmillar Camp, Duddington, on 1st May, and sentenced to imprisonment with hard labour, whether he is aware that these men are willing to undertake work under the scheme of the Brace Committee; and whether these men. have yet been given any opportunity of appearing before the Central Tribunal?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. The recommendations of the Central Tribunal in the cases of Greig and Campbell were received by the Committee on Employment of Conscientious Objectors on the 9th instant; both have accepted the employment offered them, and both will be sent to Princetown on the 19th instant. The recommendation of the tribunal in the case of McLeish was received this morning. Inquiry is being made whether he will accept employment under the Committee; and if he accepts he will be sent to work within the next few days.
Can the hon. Gentleman give any explanation of the delay of ten weeks in the sending on of information of this kind?
I cannot.
Is that delay regarded as proper? Has anybody been censured for it?
It all depends upon the circumstances.
Arising out of that—
The hon. Member is abusing his right.
Is there any remedy when a Minister abuses his position by giving evasive answers?
An hon. Member can put the question down again.
asked the President of the Local Government Board if he can say whether Councillor W. R. Hughes pleaded before the Ilford Tribunal that he was a conscientious objector and was ordered to undertake work of national importance; whether he refused; whether he has since been given work to look after the dependants of alien enemies; and, if so, will he say if this is regarded as work of national importance and what control the Government retain over his work?
So far as I have been able to ascertain, no such application has been made to the Ilford Local Tribunal.
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that the son of Councillor Godbold was granted conditional exemption by the West Ham Local Tribunal, that the military representative appealed to the Essex Appeal Tribunal, and that Godbold was again-granted conditional exemption, this time because the chairman of the Essex Appeal Tribunal stated that the man's father was doing work of national importance by being a member of the tribunal; whether he is aware that the military representative brought the case again before the West Ham Local Tribunal, urging that it had excited much public feeling, that on this occasion, owing to the advocacy of Alderman Davis, a member of the Independent Labour Party and a delegate to the Leeds Convention, Godbold was again granted conditional exemption, and that he is now employed as manager of printing works for his father's firm, which prints bills for the local volunteers; whether he is aware that this man pleaded on each occasion conscientious objection to military service; and if he will explain why he has been given preferential treatment over the sons of printers who have undertaken military service?
I will make inquiries, and acquaint the hon. Member with the result.
Medical Examination (Liverpool)
asked the Under-Secretary for War if his attention has been called to the case of a C3 man holding a certificate from a Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons to the effect that he had, as a result of an operation, a gap of over 2 ins. in diameter in the abdominal wall and was quite unfit for marching or heavy work, who, on the 15th June, was at Liverpool passed as fit for general service; will he say if this man was so classified by the medical officers who examined him or by the president of the board who had not examined him; and, in any case, will he take steps to have the man re-examined and reported on by independent civilian doctors?
I am inquiring, and will communicate with my hon. Friend as soon as possible.
Royal Army Medical Corps
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he can now state the method to be adopted by men in the Royal Army Medical Corps, Territorial Force, who enlisted in the earlier stages of the War for this service only on the ground that it was the one form of military service which they could conscientiously undertake, to have their case placed before the military authorities with a view to their retention in this service instead of being transferred to Infantry regiments?
These cases are being dealt with individually and, as I promised, are receiving sympathetic treatment.
asked (1) whether, in view of the climatic conditions involved, which involve strain and wastage even amongst men classed as A by Army medical boards and in view of the essential importance of an efficient medical service, as shown in the Mesopotamia inquiry, instructions will be issued that Class A men in the Royal Army Medical Corps depot at Blackpool and elsewhere who have recently been selected for drafting into Infantry regiments shall be retained for Royal Army Medical Corps service in the Mediterranean and other branches of the Expeditionary Force, where there is need for trained men of tried physique; (2) whether the Army authorities are satisfied that field ambulance work can be undertaken with entirely satisfactory results by men of a lower category than class A. especially in the Eastern theatre of war; whether considerable numbers of men of lower category who have been drafted to the East for Royal Army Medical Corps work have had to be returned as unfit; and, if so, whether steps will be taken to secure that, as far as possible, only men of Class A are sent to the East for this service?
Only men of category A are employed in field ambulances with the exception of batmen, who may be category B. There has been no increase in the numbers of men of the Royal Army Medical Corps invalided from the Eastern theatres of war recently, and it is not considered necessary to adopt the measures suggested by my hon. Friend.
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he is aware that, while of the 1,154 Royal Army Medical Corps (Territorial Force) men at Blackpool about to be transferred to the Infantry 92 have been wounded abroad, about 75 per cent. have been sent home from the front as either sick or wounded; and whether regard will be paid to this before any final decision is taken to transfer such men against their will from the branch of the Service for which they enlisted and for which they have special training and qualifications?
Instructions have been issued to meet the point raised by my hon. Friend so far as is compatible with the interests of the nation in the successful prosecution of the War and in making the best use of its available resources of man-power.
Councillor Dollan (Glasgow)
asked the Secretary for Scotland if he can state the terms of the decision of the Central Tribunal with regard to Councillor Dollan, of Glasgow; by whom was the condition imposed that the work of public importance in which he was engaged must be in a district at least 50 miles from Glasgow; and whether this particular condition is one which can properly be imposed as a condition of exemption from military service, or ought only to be imposed by some properly authorised authority under the Defence of the Realm Act without reference to exemption from military service?
I am informed by the Central Tribunal that the terms of their decision were: "The Central Tribunal grant exemption from combatant service only subject to the proviso that if, within twenty-one days, he undertakes, under the direction of the Committee on Work of National Importance, work which is of national importance and under conditions approved by the tribunal, he shall be exempt from non-combatant service also, so long as he continues to carry out the work under such conditions. The work proposed to be reported to the tribunal for approval. Power is reserved to the tribunal to extend the period of twenty-one days, or to vary the order, if the appellant establishes to their satisfaction that he has done his best but has failed to comply with the conditions." The Central Tribunal intimated that they would not be repared to approve of work in a district less than fifty miles from Glasgow. As regards the last part of the question, I refer my hon. and learned Friend to the reply which I gave to him on Tuesday.
Was the condition that the place in which lie should work must be at least fifty miles from Glasgow one of the conditions of exemption?
Yes. The Central Tribunal made that intimation to him in exercise of the powers which they have.
Did they made that intimation after granting the exemption or as one of the conditions on which the exemption was granted?
It was one of the conditions of exemption.
What was the object of imposing this condition? Was it because it was considered dangerous for this person to be at large in Glasgow?
As I said to my hon. Friend on Tuesday, that is a question for the tribunal to decide and not for me.
Has the tribunal power to impose any condition whatsoever with regard to exemption, no matter how irrelevant that condition may be to the "purpose for which the tribunal was constituted?
Again, as I told my hon. Friend on Tuesday, that question has not arisen up to the present. The condition happens to be of a reasonable nature. When the case to which my hon. Friend alludes arises it can be dealt with.
It has arisen, and I have asked the question.
Exemptions
asked the Secretary to the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the case of William Scott, of Bedlington, a practical watch and clock maker, passed for C1, with a wife and two children, who, if called to the Colours, would lose his business and goodwill whether he is aware that this man applied to the local tribunal and obtained three months' exemption with leave to appeal again, but, on the application of the military representative, the case was taken to the Appeal Court, who decided that the man must serve and refused leave to allow further appeal to the Central Tribunal; and whether, in view of the number of cases similar to this, he will consider the advisability of establishing an arbitration or some other Court, so as to prevent the hardship which now arises owing to the conflicting views of the local and the appeal tribunals?
The only information I have about this case is that with which the hon. Member has furnished me. Appeal tribunals were established with the express object of enabling decisions of local tribunals in doubtful cases to be brought under review and securing more uniformity, and I am unable to accept the hon. Member's suggestion that hardship necessarily arises where the decision of the Appeal Tribunal differs from that of the local tribunal.
Volunteer Commissions
asked the number of Volunteers who have received commissions since March last; also, the number who have applied for but have not yet received their commission?
I assume that my hon. Friend refers to commissions in the Volunteers. Since 1st March 2,673 candidates for commissions in the Volunteers have been gazetted. There are 177 cases outstanding, most of which are for commissions in the Motor Volunteer Corps. These are suspended pending the issue of the new scheme for the reorganisation of this corps.
Invalided Second Lieutenants (Half-Pay)
asked the Undersecretary for War whether 3s. 2d. a day is the half-pay of a second lieutenant of field artillery on being invalided out of the service after serving at Mons, in Serbia, and at Salonika; and whether, seeing that 10s. a day is his full pay when serving, he will explain why 5s. a day is not given as half-pay?
As no doubt my hon. and gallant Friend is aware, half-pay rates for the different ranks in the Army bear no uniform proportion to full pay rates. The amount of retired pay or pension awarded to an officer invalided out of the service depends upon the circumstances of the case.
Is it not a fact that after being invalided out of the Service they only have 3s. 2d. a day?
It does not follow. If the officer concerned has been invalided out of the Service owing to wounds or disability due to service, it comes within the provisions of the new Warrant.
Does the new Warrant mean that he will get 3s. 2d. a day or more?
It depends, of course, on the degree of permanent injury which the officer has suffered. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will make himself familiar with the terms of the new Warrant he will see what it does.
Air Services
Royal Flying Corps (Commissions)
asked the Undersecretary for War how many noncommissioned officers and men of the Royal Flying Corps have been trained as pilots since the outbreak of war; and, if it is not in the interests of the country to give the exact figures, will he say what proportion of the pilots of the Royal Flying Corps so trained are men of noncommissioned rank?
The total number of non-commissioned officers and men from the ranks is 271. The total Royal Flying Corps cadets who have become pilots is 536. About 20 per cent. of the noncommissioned officers and men have received commissions. All the cadets have received commissions.
Are we to understand that these 271 are non-commissioned officers who have received commissions or are they non-commissioned officers flying as non-commissioned officers; and will the hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of promoting non-commissioned officers, even if they are not fit to qualify socially, as pilots, so that their services may be utilised for the defence of the country?
There is no question of social distinctions, and I am sure that the first branch of the Service will resent such a suggestion, as well as the Air Service itself. Every man is given a commission upon his merits.
Fatal Accidents to Pilots
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether, in the event of a pilot being killed in practice flying in France, he is reported in the casualty list as killed on active service; whether a pilot killed engaging the enemy aircraft, either Zeppelins or aeroplanes, by day or by night, over London, if killed or injured, is reported in the usual casualty list as killed or wounded on active service; and, if not, will he say why this distinction is made?
If a Royal Flying Corps pilot is killed in France otherwise than in action his name appears in the published casualty list as "accidentally killed." If one is killed or injured in action with the enemy in England his-name appears in the published list as killed (which means killed in action) or as wounded.
Are we to understand that the results of coroners' inquests are necessary before it can be ascertained whether one of our pilots has been killed in action or died accidentally in engaging; the enemy over this country?
The hon. Member is to understand no such thing. As he knows very well, the law requires that if any man is found killed or has died in unknown circumstances the reason of his death has to be investigated. As I pointed out the other night to my hon. Friend, the War Office always take care that if a Royal Flying Corps man or any other soldier is killed in the service of his country in this country the fact is duly reported to the coroner.
Are we to understand that every soldier who is killed will have a coroner's inquest?
asked how many British pilots were killed or injured, and how many British machines were smashed either by the enemy or by forced landings, or otherwise, during the air raid-throughout this country on 7th July?
Two pilots were killed in action, one pilot was wounded, one observer died of wounds. Two-aeroplanes were destroyed by the enemy; two aeroplanes crashed from other causes.
Tampering With Aircraft and Sheds
asked the Prime Minister what is the penalty in the case of German prisoners of war working in this country, enemy aliens, neutrals, and British subjects, respectively, who are proved to have tampered with air sheds or aeroplanes in this country?
I am afraid that it is not possible for me to answer this question. The punishment inflicted would, of course, depend upon the nature of the offence.
asked the Prime Minister whether the Commander-in-Chief in this country, or who, is primarily responsible for the safeguarding from treacherous tampering by persons living in this country with military air sheds and aeroplanes situated or operating here; and whether, in view of the ever-increasing importance of this branch of the Air Service, he will consider the desirability of some official or officer being forthwith appointed whose chief duty it should be to see that no possible precautions shall be omitted whereby such treachery can be guarded against?
General Officers Commanding-in-Chief Commands are responsible under the direction of Field-Marshal Commander-in-Chief, Home Forces. It is not considered necessary to make any alteration in the system such as my hon. Friend suggests.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is a very grave and serious matter, which has caused considerable dissatisfaction, and will he at least ask the Department to give it very serious consideration?
I can assure my hon. Friend and the House that the War Cabinet and the Committee over which the Prime Minister presides will make the necessary inquiry.
May we feel assured that the Report will come in time, and not too late?
I hope so.
Protected Areas
asked the Prime Minister whether he will forthwith take steps to provide that aerodromes and air sheds in this country, not already situated within prohibited areas, shall themselves be constituted prohibited areas within prescribed limits?
The protection afforded to aeroplanes and air sheds in this country under military arrangements exceeds that which would result from constituting the site a prohibited area under the Aliens Restriction Order. If my hon. Friend will supply particulars of any such site which appears to him to be ineffectually guarded, I shall be pleased to have the matter inquired into at once.
Are we to understand that the Committee just mentioned by the Under-Secretary for War, and which is presided over by the Prime Minister, is a Committee which will inquire into the matters mentioned in this-question, or is it the Committee already announced to the House that is to inquire into the air defences of London generally?
It is an inquiry into the defences of London, and, I understand, into such questions as are germane.
Are we to understand that enemy aliens, or even naturalised Germans, are allowed to live close to places-where there are aerodromes and aircraft sheds?
My hon. Friend knows that this is purely a question for-the Home Office.
Oh, really!
This is a question of allowing enemy aliens in this country to live in one area or another, and that is purely a matter for the Home Office and not the War Office. If my hon. Friend will put down a question to the-Home Secretary, he will give him art answer.
Are we to be bandied or battered about from one Department to another?
Is it not the fact that enemy aliens and uninterned Germans do visit these aerodromes?
Is it the fact that all Orders that individuals are not to reside in prohibited areas do not come from the Home Office, and is it not rather-the fact that the Orders come from the officer commanding the district?
I think that is so..
Then why recommend me to go to the Home Office? Why the Home-Office, when it is the officer commanding; the district who issues the Orders?
These supplementary questions are sprung upon a very hard-worked Under-Secretary, and it is quite possible that he may have overlooked the fact that the original Order comes from the officer commanding the district. If hon. Members would put down their questions they would get considered answers.
I should be the last to desire to press the hon. Gentleman unduly.
Will it be in order for the Under-Secretary to give us an assurance—[HON. MEMBERS: "Sit down!"]—that in future no enemy aliens will be allowed to visit British aerodromes?
Aeroplane Construction
asked the Minister of Munitions if every available factory suitable for the construction of aeroplanes and not devoted to other war work is being employed to the utmost by the Ministry of Munitions?
The answer to this question is in the affirmative.
May we understand that any firm capable of building aeroplanes, if not building them now, will receive orders at once? May we understand that?
Non-Dirigible Balloon (Descent in London)
asked the Parliamentary Representative of the Air Board whether he is aware of the danger to property and obstruction to traffic caused by the descent of a non-dirigible balloon in Holborn on the 11th instant; are the frequent patrols of flights of non-dirigible balloons over the metropolis made at the instance of the military authorities; are the machines manned by members of the Royal Flying Corps or other recognised corps of combatants; and, if not, what will be their position if met by hostile machines in the course of their flights?
The danger to property and obstruction to traffic caused by the descent of a balloon in Holborn on the 11th instant are greatly regretted. The descent was due to the uncertain and erratic air currents which prevailed on that day, and caused dropping of ballast and eventually forcing the balloon to land. 'This landing was successfully made with- out casualties through the valuable assistance rendered by the police in handling the crowd. No damage was done except the breaking of five or six telephone wires, and within twenty minutes of the landing the road was clear for traffic. The answers to the second and third parts of the question are in the affirmative. The last part of the question, therefore, does not arise.
Questions
Cattle Purchases (Ireland)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that the only buyers of cattle for the military district of Belfast are Robert Graham and William Price, who have no experience of beef cattle, their business having been in the past in springing cattle only; and will he inquire into the results of their operations and state them in the House of Commons?
Mr. Robert Graham is the authorised buyer for the Belfast district, and is regarded as thoroughly competent for the purpose. The results of his buying are closely scrutinised, and are regarded as satisfactory.
Is it a fact that in the Belfast district there are seventeen military stations, and is it a fact that these people in Belfast supply all these stations, even those at Enniskillen and Londonderry?
Do they also buy for the Curragh of Kildare, 100 miles away?
No; the Curragh has its own organisation. If the hon. Member will give me notice of the points in his supplementary question I will inquire.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what experience Mr. Robert Graham had in the purchase of beef or cattle before he got his appointment? Is it not a fact that he was engaged in the trade of springing cattle?
The circumstances were examined by the Department of Agriculture, and it was on their recommendation that he was appointed.
Had he any experience in buying cattle? Do you know anything about it?
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that Messrs. Robert Graham and William Price buy cattle for the military district of Belfast at the two auctions, namely, Robsons and Calgans only, and that their method is to bid until the cattle are knocked down to them, price being no object; and will he consider the advisability of changing this system?
Out of 250 cattle recently bought within a few days for the military authorities in Ireland, seventeen were bought by auction at the places mentioned. It is not the case that these auction purchases were made without regard to their value.
Were any of these cattle slaughtered in the county Fermanagh for the use of troops in Enniskillen or even Londonderry, or any of the other camps or military places outside Belfast, or were they all slaughtered in Belfast and then sent down to these places?
I do not know. What I do know is that the allegation in the question that the cattle were bought only at these two auctions is not correct.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that there has been no inspection of cattle killed for the use of the military in the Belfast military district from December, 1916, to May, 1917, that in November, 1916, about a dozen head of cattle were found on being killed to be infected with tuberculosis, and that the inspections were then stopped; and can he state whether official inspections are now made, and was it the custom, before the present experiment was tried, to have each animal inspected for soundness, age, and quality?
The hon. Member appears to have been misinformed. All cattle from 1st January, 1917, have been inspected by the city veterinarian and three inspectors before being accepted as beef. In November, 1916, beef was supplied under contract by the pound and all beef was inspected before being taken over from the contractor. No infected animal was offered. Inspections were not stopped but have been continued without interruption. Official inspections continue to be made by corporation officials.
From what source has the hon. Gentleman the information that there was not this large number of cattle suffering from tuberculosis cast by the inspector?
. Through the ordinary channels—the authorities in Ireland.
asked what sum the military authorities pay per annum to the Belfast corporation for the use of the public abattoir for the slaughter of cattle for the use of the troops; and whether there is an additional charge connected with the present experiment?
£40 per month, and there is an additional payment of £8 per month for inspection services.
Will the hon. Gentleman take into consideration that these cattle should be bought in the military district, and give the farmers the benefit of whatever was going in the price of cattle, and thus save carriage from Belfast to all those other stations; and could he not devise some remedy and ask for tenders, as was formerly done throughout, Ireland?
The hon. Member should put down a question on that subject.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that the address of Robert Graham, as given, is also the address of Cunningham, the stockbroker; and can he say whether the latter has any, and, if so, what, connection with the contracts for the supply of beef to the Belfast military district?
Since I answered the hon. Member's question on 12th July I have received further information from the General Officer Commanding, Ireland, to the effect that a mistake had been made and it now appears that the two persons mentioned have not the same address. Mr. Cunningham acts gratuitously as adviser on matters connected with the purchase of cattle for the troops and has no-connection with any Army contracts for beef.
Was not Mr. Cunningham a very prominent figure in the gun running at Larne?
That obviously has nothing to do with the matter.
Is this the Mr. Cunningham who has the responsibility for supplying the troops at the Curragh of Kildare with their mess beef? What is the reason for going to Belfast for a man to supply beef at the Curragh in the centre of the very district that supplies the best beef in the world? Also what affinity is there between the Masonic lodges of Belfast and the Curragh of Kildare?
This Mr. Cunningham holds no contracts. He acts gratuitously as adviser on matters connected with the purchase of cattle. He advises in connection with purchases at the Curragh, just as he advises in connection with the purchase of cattle for the Belfast district. He has no responsibilities in the matter of placing contracts or anything of that kind
What competency has this doctor in Belfast to advise upon the purchase of beef?
He has a very thorough knowledge of cattle and agriculture generally.
Rhodesia (Native Reserves)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the announcement made by the British South Africa Company that, as a result of the recommendations of a Commission, the native reserves of Rhodesia are to be reduced by over 1,000,000 acres; that an Order in Council is about to be issued extending the approval of His Majesty's Government to this action, and that such lands will be offered for disposal in the interests of the company's commercial accounts; and whether His Majesty's Government will consider the advisability of postponing the issue of such Order in Council until the Members of this House have had an opportunity of considering the Report in question?
Yes, Sir, I have seen the announcement. As I stated in reply to a question yesterday, I propose shortly to publish the Report of the Commission. The hon. Member may rest assured that there is no question of issuing an Order in Council amending the Southern Rhodesia Order in Council before the publication of the Report.
Illegal Examination (Hollo-Way Prison)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that two women were illegally examined on 12th April last at Holloway Prison, having been sent there from the Brentford Police Court on 17th April; whether any action has been taken against the persons who ordered this illegality or the persons who conducted the examination; whether any apology or compensation has been offered to these two women for the indignity and suffering imposed on them by police authorities; and what steps are being taken to prevent recurrences of such acts?
I have nothing to add to the answers given to questions put to my right hon. Friend on 17th May last with regard to this matter.
Mesopotamia Commission
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that the special Court set up to deal with the Mesopotamia Expedition cannot render its decision before many months and yet that it is important that the Eastern field of war should be dealt with efficiently, the War Cabinet will on its own responsibility and by way of administration proceed to take the steps that seem best for the future conduct of the War, even though these steps should involve the retirement of officers of high command, highly-placed Indian officials, or members of the Government?
As I said yesterday, I hope to make a statement on this subject to-morrow.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to make a statement bearing directly on the points mentioned in the question?
I hope the statement will bear on any essential points.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the disasters due to want of forethought in the Mesopotamia campaign, the inactivity of a considerable force at Salonika which has been hampered by delay of decisions in matters vitally affecting its situation and its purposes, in view also of the expenditure of military effort and sacrifice of life on the Western front on actions which have had no effect on the essential character of the military situation, and in view of the failure to produce an adequate air fleet to be used as a separate striking arm, and considering that after three years of warfare the Germans retain their hold on all the territories they have overrun in Europe, he will dissolve the War Cabinet and establish a better system, or at least give entrance to someone capable of taking such a general view of the whole situation as to embrace and estimate relative values of the main factors, and capable also of laying down great guiding plans which from their inception shall contain the assurance of victory, and capable also of seeing that these plans are realised step by step in due order and coherence?
The answer is in the negative.
Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to give a day for a Resolution of want of confidence in the Government based upon the materials supplied in this question?
I do not think that we need a day to know that the hon. Member has a want of confidence in the Government. Of course, the Government would give a day for such a Resolution if it were generally desired.
I should like to ask the Leader of the House if he can tell us whether the statement on the Government decision in regard to Mesopotamia will be made to-morrow in reply to a question, or on a Motion for Adjournment: is it the intention of the Government to give an opportunity for discussion to-morrow if desired?
There is no intention of giving an opportunity for discussion to-morrow. The statement will be made in answer to a question.
Corn Production Bill
asked the Prime Minister whether in view of the efforts being made by the farmers of the United Kingdom, in reliance on the Government promises, to increase the food production of the country, the Government will take steps to secure the passage of the Corn Production Bill through all its stages in this House before the Recess?
As I stated yesterday, I hope to make a statement on the subject to-morrow.
British Dredging Company
asked the Prime Minister why the British Dredging Company, carrying on business at Southampton House, should not be dealt with as an enemy company; whether a number of their shareholders are Germans; if this company is carrying out contracts for the Government; and if any profits arising from this work are being distributed to any of the shareholders of enemy origin?
The Prime Minister has asked me to answer this question. Less than 10 per cent. of the capital of the British Dredging Company, Limited, is held by enemies, and there is no ground on which it should be dealt with as an enemy company. The dividends on the shares held by enemies are paid to the Public Trustee.
Is it not true that a number of the registered shareholders are German?
Industrial Unrest Inquiry
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Commissioners appointed by the Government to inquire into the industrial unrest have yet made their Report; if he is aware of the unrest amongst the assurance agents of Great Britain and Ireland; if he is aware that the Commissioners heard the grievances of these men quite recently in Manchester, and promised to bring pressure on the Government to intercede with the companies to pay their employés a living wage; if he is aware that a deputation of agents waited on a large assurance company in February to claim a war bonus, and were informed that if the agents would use their influence with their Members of Parliament to repeal the Courts Emergency Powers Act, 1914, that a war bonus would be granted; and if he will say what are the Government's intentions?
I have been asked to answer this question. The Reports of the Commissioners have been submitted to the Prime Minister to-day. The Report from the Commissioners for the Northr-West area contains a reference to the complaints of assurance agents, but the Government have not as yet had time to consider the Reports in detail. I have no information as to the deputation referred to by the hon. Member.
Hotels as Hospitals
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can state, approximately, the number of hotels or other houses taken over, for other than hospital purposes, by the Government in London since August, 1914; the prices paid for them; and the number of officials at present employed therein?
It is not possible at short notice to give even an approximate Return of the particulars asked for, and the preparation of such Return would entail undue pressure on a staff already overworked, but the practicability of bringing Command Paper No. 8,499 up to date is under consideration.
Camp Hill Prison, Isle of Wight
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if the majority of the workmen employed in the erection of the new prison, Camp Hill, Isle of Wight, have been employed on this work for about the last six years; if the Prison Commissioners gave notice that the 4s. war bonus applied to the prison staff and those supplementarily engaged; if the above workmen have not received this bonus under the excuse that they are only casual labourers although employed for so many years; and if the Prison Commissioners can see their way, owing to the increased cost of living, to grant them this bonus?
I am informed by the Prison Commissioners that the workmen at Camp Hill benefited by the bonus conceded to their class by Treasury Circular of the 9th September, 1916, and will also benefit by the Treasury Circular of the 1st June, 1917, which grants an additional bonus. It is not the fact that they will be excluded on the ground that they are only casual labourers.
Hand Grenades
asked the Minister of Munitions how many officers were killed at Grantham recently by the premature explosion of hand grenades; and if he will say what steps, if any, the Department is taking to prevent these recurring accidents?
I regret to say that one officer was killed by a bombing, accident at Grantham on 26th May last. Detailed instructions to prevent accidents during training are contained in the Manual on this subject, and these precautions are taken. I am afraid that an occasional fatal accident is inevitable in the handling of high explosives, but their number is very small in relation to the number of live grenades used.
Munitions
Leaving Certificates (Carpenters and Joiners)
asked the Minister of Munitions whether instructions have been given to the managers and foremen of controlled establishments that they must not give employment to carpenters and joiners of military age although they may have leaving certificates from their last employers?
No instructions to this effect have been issued by the Ministry of Munitions.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this has occurred at some establishments?
If the hon. Member will give me particulars of the establishment I will make inquiry.
War Bonuses (Dublin)
asked the Minister of Munitions if the war bonuses granted by Treasury sanction, dated from 1st July, 1916, to all branches of the Government service have been paid to the officials of the Ministry of Munitions and office,. Dublin; and, if not, if he will state the reason for withholding the same?
The War bonuses granted by the Treasury sanction have not yet been paid to the officials of any of the Ministry of Munition area offices. A considerable amount of information has to be collected from the various offices concerned before it can be ascertained how far each individual is entitled to benefit under the terms of the award. The bonuses will be paid to all who are entitled thereto as soon as these preliminary inquiries, the urgency of which is realised, can be completed.
Questions
Coal Transport
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the restrictions on coal traffic announced to begin on the 10th September next will apply to Government factories?
The directions as to the transport of coal to which the hon. Member refers will apply to all coal traffic by rail for inland consumption, save in cases in which exemption is granted by the Controller of Coal Mines, such as, for example, those of important consumers requiring particular qualities of coal which cannot be obtained from the permissible areas of supply.
Imports (Restrictions)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the restriction of imports is intended to apply to samples weighing a few pounds, on the analysis of which the contracts are settled; and whether licences for such samples to be imported can be granted without the present undue delay?
There has for a long time been in existence a general licence permitting the importation of bonâ fide commercial samples.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that considerable delay has taken place in issuing licences for the import of those stocks especially from France?
I am not aware that any unavoidable delay exists. Some time must elapse to make inquiries and we do all we can to expedite matters and to avoid delay.
Timber Imports
asked the President of the Board of Trade seeing that the stock of Canadian timber which is so largely used in Liverpool and the West Coast generally is almost exhausted and sawmills accustomed to saw the same to dimensions brought to a standstill, if he will relax the present Regulations prohibiting the importation of such timber and agree to allocate to the Canadian timber shippers a certain amount of space by the requisitioned vessels, or, alternatively, permit the chartering of neutral or other tonnage not specially required; and, at the same time, will he grant to importers of Canadian timber the same concession given to importers of timber from Sweden and Norway, viz., liberty to increase the end of January prices, without which concession the liberty to charter would be useless owing to the high rates for freight and war risk insurance?
The Board of Trade, through the Controller of Timber Supplies, have, for some time, been endeavouring to make arrangements which would enable the import restrictions for Canadian timber to be relaxed, but the tonnage difficulty has delayed matters. Import licences are now obtainable for timber shipments in neutral sailing vessels from Canada and the United States, but it is not yet possible to make similar concessions for steam tonnage. The question of permitting prices for Canadian and United States timber to be advanced similarly to Swedish and Norwegian has, of course, been considered in this connection, and it is hoped that this matter may be arranged shortly.
Postal Service
asked the Postmaster-General whether he has considered the application of the principle of the Whitley Report to the postal service; and, in view of the effect on public opinion of a Government Department taking the initiative in this matter, whether he will take steps to set up a Standing Joint Council representative of the management and of the postal employés' unions for the regular consideration of matters affecting the progress and well-being of the service from the point of view of all those engaged in it, so far as this is consistent with the general interest of the community?
I am considering whether in dealing with any of the questions awaiting solution in the Post Office I can usefully avail myself of the services of advisory committees, including representations of the staff, but I am at present unable to make any further statement.
Telephone Use (Languages of Enemy States)
asked the Postmaster-General whether he will consider the advisability of following the practice in force in France of prohibiting all conversations on the telephone in any language other than the language of the country?
Conversations on the telephone in languages of enemy States are prohibited. I do not think the use of the languages of allied countries is open to objection, and it could not be forbidden without inconvenience to a large number of subjects of allied States who at present are engaged on official work in this country.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the operators or detectives have knowledge of the French language and does he not consider that the example of France, which prohibits the use of any language but French on the telephone, is good in time of war?
I understand that it is only in certain areas in France where the use of any other language is prohibited.
In Paris?
I do not think that all the telephone operators understand French.
Would it not be quite possible for enemy aliens to speak French and do just as much mischief as if they spoke in their own language?
If they could speak French they could talk in that language.
You could check it.
General Post Office (Cable Room)
asked the Postmaster-General whether employés who are not British-born are engaged in the cable room at the General Post Office?
With the exception of a number of Belgians, who are employed in a temporary capacity, there are eight men who are not natural-born British subjects employed in the cable room of the Central Telegraph Office. They are all naturalised British subjects.
Does my right hon. Friend not think that in time of war it would be possible to try and get British subjects into an important room like this and employ only British subjects where most important secrets are known?
There is such a shortage of skilled operators, it is very difficult.
I will call attention to this matter.
May I ask how long these men have been naturalised?
I could not say without notice.
Food Supplies
Railway Refreshment Rooms
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that at refreshment-rooms on the railways only 2 ozs. of bread is allowed; and whether, in view of the hardship and suffering entailed on those who are too poor to buy other articles of food at the same time, as wealthier people do, he can provide some remedy, particularly in view of the present slow travelling?
The restrictions imposed by the Public Meals Order do not apply to food served over the counter of a railway refreshment room. An endeavour is, no doubt, made to limit the quantity of bread purchased, but this is the first complaint that I have heard that any hardship or suffering is entailed thereby.
May I ask whether he does not think that a poor man starving for eight hours who is only allowed 2 ozs. of bread is handicapped in favour of the man who can afford to buy a luncheon basket?
The action taken by certain persons who dispose of food over the counter is action inspired, no doubt, from patriotic motives. Cases of hardship must be considered.
Bread
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he will state the percentage of cereals other than wheat now permitted in the constitution of flour to be used for making ordinary bread; whether the percentage of one or all such added ingredients as permitted is left to the discretion of the millers or bakers— e.g., may such added percentage consist entirely of bean flour without being contrary to Regulations; whether the scientific experts advising the Board of Trade or his Department have reported that wheaten flour containing a high percentage of the whole grain is much more nutritious, wholesome, and economical than was the flour made with greater amount of extraction (white flour) principally used before the War; will he state the percentage of the whole-wheat grain now required in milling of wheaten flour under present Regulations, and also the approximate percentage of saving in the amount of wheat grain required in the making of bread under the new Regulations in comparison with the pre-war method referred to?
The percentage of cereals other than wheat is required to be not less than 20 and not more than 50. The admixture of ingredients is left to the discretion of the millers, except that the use of Soya bean flour is limited to 5 per cent. of the total. I am advised that what is usually known as wholemeal flour is more nutritious and economical than white flour, but it appears that some people find it indigestible. The percentage of extraction to be obtained from wheat varies from 48 to 83, according to the description of wheat used. The percentage of wheat grain saved by the new Regulations as compared with those existing before the War is about 25 per cent.
Questions
Hickman Estate, West Clare
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the tenants on the F. W. Hickman estate, West Clare, have been served with writs; whether F. W. Hickman is only nominally owner, and this action is really due to the mort- gagees in London; whether the refusal to treat equitably with the tenants of this estate is holding up the sale of another estate; and whether he will intervene to save the tenants from the immediate operation of the writs, and so that the sale of this estate may be effected?
I am informed that Mr. Hickman died on Saturday last, so that proceedings in his name cannot now be continued. There are no doubt mortgagees of the estate, but I have no particulars of their interests. I have not been able to ascertain that the dealings with any other estate are involved with those in relation to the Hickman estate.
Will the demise of Mr. Hickman have the effect of rendering these writs inoperative?
I am told that the whole proceedings fall to the ground.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether his attention has been called to the fact that on the F. W. Hickman estate, Knock, West Clare, there are 200 acres of untenanted land lying practically useless and deteriorating in value, and that, if the estate was vested in the congests and evicted tenants who are ready to cultivate it, the gain in food production would be considerable; and whether he will see that the sale of this estate is facilitated?
So far as I am aware, the estate referred to is not being sold.
Royal Naval College, Osborne
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty if the staff of the Royal Naval College, Osborne, have been waiting since the beginning of April for a decision as to the payment to them of a war bonus of 5s. per week per head; if the same can now be granted to them, as many of the staff have homes to keep up away from the establishment and the delay is causing privation; if the allowance of beer to the staff has been discontinued owing to the inability of the brewers to supply it; and, although this is probably unavoidable, if the Admiralty will make an allowance of ration money in lieu thereof?
I am afraid I cannot add to the informa- tion given on 25th June in reply to a question by ray hon. Friend the Member for West Ham, South. I am sending a copy to my hon. and gallant Friend.
Prisoners of War (Parcels)
asked the hon. Member for Sheffield (Central Division) whether he can state the reasons which have induced the Government to propose to abolish the practice whereby relatives of officer prisoners of war have since the commencement of the War sent parcels direct to these officers?
I understand that the reasons for the change as regard the officer prisoners are the same as those which prevailed in the case of the rank and file—namely, the need for securing a more even distribution of parcels and considerations connected with the postal censorship.
May I ask whether these evils, if they exist, could not have been remedied without exceedingly drastic changes, and is he aware that relatives of officer prisoners have been caused great anxiety and very serious discontent owing to not being allowed to send parcels to their relatives?
I am quite aware of the discontent which prevails and also among the rank and file, but such evils were disclosed, and I do not see how it is possible entirely to avoid them without taking steps of the kind.
May I ask the Leader of the House whether an opportunity will be given to discuss this question before it becomes operative?
National Service
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of National Service whether another large hotel has been acquired to house the extended activities of his Department; and, if so, will he say what are the proposed extensions in the work of the Department?
There is no question as to taking an extra hotel for the National Service Department. The Department has no control over the offices allotted to it, and if it is moved it will be to meet the necessities of other Government Departments.
Is it not a fact that the Windsor Hotel has been mentioned: is the Department going to move there?
I wish my hon. and gallant Friend would inform me—I do not know.
What about the Zoological Gardens?
asked how many rooms were originally taken over in St. Ermin's Hotel by the National Service Department; how many rooms they now occupy; and what is the total number of rooms in the hotel?
The number of rooms originally allotted to the National Service Department was 239, of which 223 are at present occupied. The total number of rooms in the hotel is 447, the balance of 208 being occupied by the priority branch of the Ministry of Munitions.
Gloucestershire County Council (Resolution)
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to a resolution passed by the Gloucestershire County Council to the effect that, to prevent the damage now accruing to many highways and large areas of agricultural land in England, it is desirable that the law as regards the maintenance and cleansing of watercourses should forthwith be simplified and amended, and that to secure this end the administration of such law could be usefully entrusted to such local authorities as Parliament may authorise; and whether he will consider the advisability of introducing such legislation?
I have received a copy of the resolution referred to, but it does not indicate the nature of the Amendments desired. I am asking for this information.
Arseno-Benzol Preparations
asked the President of the Local Government Board how many persons have been placed on the list of approved medical practitioners to whom arseno-benzol (salvarsan and its substitutes), approved by the Local Government Board, may he supplied free of cost; whether proper care is taken that only experienced practitioners of good reputation are placed on the list; and whether female as well as male practitioners are eligible for this privilege?
I have no complete information as to the number of medical practitioners in the country who are entitled to be supplied free of cost with arseno-benzol preparations which have been approved by the Local Government Board as substitutes for salvarsan, but I am informed that the number in London is at present seventy-one. In reply to the second part of the question I may draw attention to the circular letter issued by the Local Government Board on the 29th August, 1916, wherein the conditions on which these preparations should be supplied are set out. The reply to the last part of the question is in the affirmative.
West Ham Education Committee (After-Care Offices)
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that Mr. Tarr, employed by the West Ham Education Committee as an after-care officer, namely, the looking after the placing of children in employment on leaving school, an office which for some time past has been a sinecure owing to the demand by employers for boys and girls, was allowed to remain in his position on the advice of the Pelham Committee; whether such work as this man is required to do can be equally well performed by a woman; whether, after asking the chairman of the education committee if he joined the Royal Army Medical Corps he would receive full pay and being informed in the negative, Tarr appeared before the West Ham Local Tribunal and pleaded conscientious objection; whether on that ground he was exempted and was ordered by the Essex Appeal Tribunal to undertake work of national importance; whether his wife is replacing a soldier teacher; whether Mr. and Mrs. Tarr are both drawing salaries from the State, notwithstanding the fact that Tarr is of military age and other men similarly placed to himself are doing their duty at the front for 1s. a day; and will he say what steps he proposes to take in the matter?
I am not aware of the matters to which my hon. Friend refers. I am inquiring of the Committee on Work of National Importance, and will inform him of the result.
British Museum
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware of the large numbers of persons turned away daily from the British Museum and the disappointment expressed, especially by soldiers from the Overseas Dominions, at admission being refused; whether he will take such steps as may be necessary to cause at least the opening to the public of the Greek and Roman sculpture galleries, the Egyptian and Assyrian sculpture galleries, and the King's Library, in view of their educational and recreative value; and will he bear in mind that the additional attendants required would be small in number and might consist of soldiers or sailors unable further to carry out their duties in the Services or of elderly persons while there is not a regular staff now in attendance?
The considerations which the hon. Member urges were very carefully weighed eighteen months ago, when it was decided to close the Museum, and I fear that the passage of time has in no way lessened the importance of the reasons which prompted that decision.
Captain J. R. White
asked if Captain J. R. White can return to Ireland?
I am informed that Captain White remains in England under an undertaking given by him.
Vaccination (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he will consider the question of assimilating the law regarding vaccination in Ireland with the law in England in the event of any substantial body of public opinion in Ireland being favourable to that course?
I should, of course, attach great weight to unmistakable evidence of public opinion on this matter. I ought to add that my official advisers consider the change proposed to involve serious risks.
In view of the number of prosecutions pending in Ireland on this question, and having regard to the fact that there is great public feeling on the matter, would the right hon. and learned Gentleman consider the situation and see if he could not assimilate the law as suggested?
Would the right hon. Gentleman also consider allowing public meetings to ventilate public opinion on this matter?
In respect to the pending prosecutions it would not be possible to introduce and pass a Bill dealing with them; any evidence of strong public feeling on the assimilation of the law between the two countries is a matter for my right hon. Friend.
Would the right hon. Gentleman prevent the suppression of public opinion?
I am not aware that there is any suppression of public opinion.
"New Republic."
On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday I gave notice to the Prime Minister that I intended to ask a question by private notice concerning the suppression of a paper called the "New Republic" This morning I received a note from your secretary saying that the matter could not be regarded as a question of urgency. I would like to point out that it was considered a question of urgency when a paper called the "Labour Leader" was suppressed; not only was it considered a question of urgency, but it was also considered a question of allowing the adjournment of the House to be moved, with a Debate at a quarter past eight. I had intended to follow the same course to-day, and I would respectfully ask the reason for your ruling?
It seemed to me that the matter was not one of urgency. If it is correct that the publication of the journal has been stopped, there is an end of the matter for the time being. It is, therefore, not a matter of particular urgency as between to-day and to-morrow. I have handed the hon. Member's question in at the Table, and it will appear on the Paper to-morrow.
May I, Mr. Speaker, point out how this is a question of urgency? A newspaper may be regarded as coming under the class of perishable goods. A topic which might be of great interest one day, might entirely lose its savour in a day or two. The matter is one of urgency for the editor of this paper whose livelihood depends upon it. If the paper is delayed in appearance it means the destruction of that number altogether and a very considerable loss to the editor. I should like also to know whether the fact that this is an unconventional paper, as revealed by its title the "New Republic,'' being intended to be the organ of the Republican league had anything to do with your decision?
I know nothing whatever about the paper. I never heard of it before, but as far as one can judge it does not seem to me that the question suffers by being delayed a day.
Do we, Mr. Speaker, understand from you this: Supposing this question is put to-morrow—seeing the question will be on the Paper—and the hon. Member opposite is not satisfied with the answer given, will he be able to move the adjournment of the House on a matter of urgent public importance? The effect of your ruling, I take it, is that the hon. Member will not be informed that he has not taken the first possible opportunity of drawing attention to the matter?
I should rather like to hear what are the circumstances. I do not care to commit myself beforehand, for I really know nothing about the matter.
I only want to establish this point: On the last occasion when we had a somewhat similar Motion for Adjournment, it was not on the "Labour Leader"—my hon. Friend is wrong in that—but on a newspaper called "Forward." Of course, the Rules of the House are that a Member must draw attention to a matter on the first possible opportunity. In connection with the "New Republic," which I know has been suppressed, the first possible opportunity of drawing attention to the matter was yesterday. You have done quite right in what you have done; I do not object to it at all—
Oh, oh!
Why should an hon. Member object to Mr. Speaker's ruling? Hon. Members express some surprise that a Member should accept the ruling of the Chair! The only point I want to establish is this: The question of the hon. Member, having gone down on the Order Paper two days after the matter might have been raised, will he or will he not be ruled out of Order to-morrow on the ground that he has not raised the question on the first possible opportunity?
The question of delay does not ordinarily relate to a definite matter of urgent public importance, but applies to the question of privilege.
May I give notice that tomorrow I will raise the question as a matter of urgent public importance. I mean to fight for the existence of this paper and its principles.
Irish Homespun Tweeds
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether the Department' s representatives in Ireland and in Great Britain have made inquiries as to the extent to which the term Irish homespun is applied to tweeds other than cottage-made tweeds; whether the agreement arrived at at the close of the prosecution in the case at Kingstown in September, 1915, has been loyally observed by the wholesale and retail trade; and whether the genuine products of the cottage weavers in Kerry. Connemara, Donegal, and other centres of the industry may now be regarded as free from the competition which had seriously threatened the existence of the industry? I should point out that the word "unfair" has been omitted before the word "competition."
Subsequent to the hearing of the case at Dublin in regard to homespun tweed, officers of the Department of Agriculture made inquiries as to the use of the description "Irish Homespun," but no case which appeared to call for proceedings came under notice. The Department are prepared to take any action open to them to prevent the application of the description "Irish Homespun'' to factory-made tweeds.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in a large number of drapery establishments English made tweeds are sold as genuine home-spun Donegal tweeds?
If the hon. Member can give me a case, or put the name before the Board of Agriculture in Ireland and the particulars of such a case, I will try to prevent the practice.
Will the right hon. Gentleman send an inspector to those establishments in London, where it will be found that they are selling English-made tweeds as genuine home-spun Donegal tweeds that are not genuine home-spun Donegal tweeds at all?
Salvage (South-West Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he can State who is responsible for the payment of salvage to fishermen and others along the South-West coast of Ireland for salving wrecked goods; whether he is aware that attempts are frequently made by the receivers of wrecked goods to withhold proper salvage payments; and whether he will cause notices to be posted up in public places stating the salvage payable in all cases?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. The responsibility for the payment of salvage on wrecked goods rests with the owners of the goods, if their claim is admitted, and with the Receivers of Wreck if the goods are unclaimed. I am not aware of any general complaints of the kind indicated. The amount of salvage depends on a variety of considerations which cannot easily be explained within the limits of a reply to a question, but I shall be happy to furnish the hon. Member with a detailed memorandum on the subject.
Can the hon. Gentleman say who is the owner of goods picked up on the open sea?
I think that question had better be put down.
New Member Sworn
Sir Abraham Garrod Thomas, M.D., for the County of Monmouth (South Division).
Boaz' Divorce Bill [Lords]
Reported, without Amendment, from the Select Committee on Divorce Bills, with Minutes of Proceedings; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Bill to be read the third time.
Ordered, That the Minutes of Evidence and Proceedings in the House of Lords on the Second Reading of Boaz' Divorce Bill [ Lords ], together with the documents deposited in the case, be returned to the House of Lords.—[ Mr. J. A. Clyde. ]
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to,—
Essex and Herts Clergy Charity Bill,
Birmingham Churches Fund Charity Bill,
Church Lands (Bristol, St. Thomas) Charity Bill,
Presbyterian Church (Crook) Charity Bill,
Baptist Chapels Charities Bill,
Congregational Chapels Charities Bill,
Seaham Harbour Dock Bill, without Amendment.
Ebbw Vale Urban District Council Bill, with Amendments.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confirm an agreement relating to the supply of electricity in the borough of Richmond (Surrey)." [Richmond (Surrey) Electricity Supply Bill [ Lords. ]
Richmond (Surrey) Electricity Supply Bill [Lords]
Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Companies (Particulars as to Directors) Bill
Lords Amendments to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 78.]
Orders of the Day
Finance Bill
Order for Third Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
Before proceeding with the Third Reading of this Bill, I want to ask your advice, Mr. Speaker, on a question of Order. On page 1,472 of the Amendment Paper last night there was an Amendment to Clause 25 in the name of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I understood that Amendment was put by you from the chair shortly after 11 o'clock. There was no statement with regard to it, and I want to call your attention to two points and ask your opinion. The first is that the Bill, as amended in Committee, is printed and handed to hon. Members. The Bill as amended by yesterday's proceedings, has not been printed. In the OFFICIAL REPORT of the proceedings yesterday there is no reference whatever to any Amendment having been moved between Clause 24 and Clause 34, and there is no reference to this Government Amendment at all. Therefore, I ask you, first whether we may take the Third Beading of the Clause as amended last night in a vital particular, the Amendment being a very far-reaching one, of which there is no record in. the records of the House, and which is not before the House in any official form at all. Secondly, when we come to the Third Beading, I would like to know whether you will put Clause 25, as amended on Report, as I understood it was amended last night by the Chancellor of the Exchequer's Amendment, although not in the official records.
I am afraid I do not quite follow. Here is the Bill, and here is the Amendment in it.
I was told at the Vote Office that it was not printed, and I could not be given a copy.
The hon. Member will see it in the House copy of the Bill.
4.0 P.M.
I regret that I have occasion to offer any criticism on the Third Reading of the Finance Bill, and if its provisions applied equally to all classes of industry, and it did not contain special and invidious provisions for one class, I would have no occasion to do so. But this Bill most unfairly selects one class of industry for special and punitive legislation. On behalf of the shipowners of this country, I beg to enter my protest against it. In Committee stage, Clause 19, now Clause 22, was modified to a certain extent to relieve cases of hardship, and therefore shipowners had not much cause for complaint, except for the slur upon them which is contained in the Clause which still remains in the Bill, and which will appear on the Statute Book in the Act. The Clause as amended is of little benefit to the nation, and I do not think it would have been passed in Committee had it not been for the prejudice that has been created against the shipowner by the unfortunate imputation that he is a profiteer and made his profits out of the people's food. Now the Government, I maintain, is largely responsible for not telling the truth of the effect of freights upon the price of the food of the people, and for not informing the people that the rise in the price of food is a world rise, and that, so far as America is concerned, the price of food in the United States, which is a great producing country, is as high, if not higher, than in England at the present time. In Committee I directed my remarks mainly to defending the shipowner against the charges which had been made against him of profiteering in the people's food, and I directed by remarks to prove—and I think I proved conclusively—that in the two main and staple articles of food, namely, meat and wheat, the effect of freights had been infinitesimal, and in fact had not increased the price by more than a fraction of ¼d. in the lb. I do not propose to occupy the time of the House in recapitulating those arguments, for I believe that every intelligent person who has studied the question will accept the truth of them. With regard to the increase in the price of other articles of food, such as fish, milk, potatoes, green vegetables, the shipowner is not concerned, except that he has to pay enhanced prices when provisioning his ships, and therefore I make no reference to it. Later on in the Debate the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Tyneside (Mr. J. M. Robertson) spoke, and I trust the House will pardon me for giving the words he used. Here we have the evidence of a Committee set up by the Government, and hon. Members of this House representing labour, who naturally take the keenest interest in the question of the price of the people's food, giving evidence and testifying that the British shipowner is not responsible for the rise in the price of the people's food. Therefore the shipowner cannot be regarded as a profiteer so far as that is concerned, and during my own speech, when dealing with this question of prices and shipowners' profits, I asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to tell the truth regarding the effect of freights on food prices, and to exonerate the British shipowner from the charge of being a profiteer. The Chancellor of the Exchequer immediately followed me in the Debate, and acting on the old legal adage that if you have a bad case attack the plaintiff's attorney he evaded the real case and the question, and this was pointed out by the light hon. Gentleman the Member for Tyneside in the Debate. The right hon. Gentleman avoided the case and question I put to him, and made some irrelevant remark regarding myself, upon which I make no comment.
The right hon. Gentleman then proceeded to tell the House what he described as the truth about shipowners' profits, giving in support of the same some information regarding his own personal investments in tramp steamers, which he said he had no reason to doubt was a fair representation of the profits of shipowners. He stated that he had investments in fifteen different shipping companies under the management of seven different owners. Now I am reliably informed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has shares in five or six steamers owned by different single-ship companies under one management, the management of a gentleman occupying a high position in the Government. It is somewhat singular that we learned some months ago from a question put in this House by the hon. Member for Bradford (Mr. Jowett) that this gentleman had under his management at the begeinging of the War forty-eight steamers, and in March last he had only twenty-four, the other twenty-four having in the interval been sold or lost, and out of the remaining twenty-four, five steamers, or over 20 per cent., were on the 31st December last free from requisition. I think it is incumbent upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give us some further in- formation regarding these vessels. I am sorry to have to refer to this matter, and certainly I would not have done so had the right hon. Gentleman not introduced the subject. Perhaps the Chancellor of the Exchequer will tell us whether he had shares in those steamers free from requisition, for it is important to know how the profits were earned.
As the Chancellor himself introduced the question of his private investments, I think the House is entitled to have the fullest information regarding them. We ought to be told the names of the steamers and the names of the owners, the tonnage of the ships, the amount of share capital of the companies, and the nature of their employment during the period they were earning these exorbitant profits. I question whether it would have been possible for the profits which the right hon. Gentleman described as disgraceful to have been made if those ships had been under requisition at Blue Book rates. The amount of the share capital is a most important factor in arriving at the profits earned, for if the ship is an old secondhand boat which was bought before the War at a price of, say, a fourth or an eighth of what a new ship of similar size would cost, she can, if a tramp steamer, in such exceptional times as we have had show a very much greater profit and a much greater percentage of profit than a new steamer could possibly do. The one item of insurance alone would make an enormous difference in regard to the question of profit. It is a curious anomaly amounting almost to a paradox that the poorer the class of ship during this War the greater the profit she could earn. The explanation is simple, because the best class of ships were requisitioned by the Government at Blue Book rates, and the old rattletraps were allowed to go free to earn current market rates, in some instances carrying cargoes to neutral countries at enormous rates of freight.
I will give one or two examples of this class of steamer. I will take one ship owned by the gentleman in question. She is twenty years old. [An HON. MEMBER: "Who is the gentleman?"] Perhaps the Chancellor of the Exchequer will answer that question, and I much prefer that he should. The ship is twenty years old, and carries about 5,100 tons dead weight. The share capital of this ship is only £8,000, equal to about 30s. per ton dead weight. Another of these ships is twenty years old and about 4,700 tons dead weight, and the share capital is only £6,000, equal to about 25s. per ton on the dead weight, which is about the scrap price that any shipbreaker would have paid for a ship before the War to break her up to sell as old iron. That is one class of ship. It will readily be seen that the profit earned on such a ship representing a capital of £6,000 would be very different to the profit earned on a new ship involving five or six times the amount of capital.
Let me give the House another instance of what may be called shipowning, but which I call speculating in ships or jobbing in ships. Here there is a firm well known also in Glasgow, which prior to the War had thirty steamers, and that firm now has only three, having sold the balance at enormous profits during the time ships could be sold at a profit. The extraordinary feature about this company is the manner in which they finance their ships and raise their capital. I will take an example of one ship. She carries about 7,300 tons dead weight, and was built two or three years before the War at a time when shipbuilders were hungry for orders, and would build ships not only at low prices but on the smallest possible margin of payment. This ship carries about 7,300 tons dead weight, and if she had been paid for at £5 per ton on the dead weight, which is a very low price, she would have cost £36,500. This shipowner, however, did not pay for the ship. He subscribed for the share capital £1,150 only, and he got the builder to take a mortgage on the ship for £35,350 at 4 per cent. per annum, or £1,414 per annum in interest. If that ship had only earned 10 per cent. of her cost price, if the whole of the purchase price had been paid up she would have shown a profit of £3,650, from which £1,414 interest at 4 per cent. on the mortgage has to be deducted, leaving a clear net profit of £2,236. That on £l,150 share capital is equal to about 200 per cent. Perhaps the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been sufficiently fortunate to have had some shares in those ships. If he has, he has done especially well out of them. Twenty-seven of those ships have been sold at inflated prices. It may interest the House to know that ten of them were purchased by the Australian Commonwealth, of course at fancy prices, and instead of being employed to bring Australian wheat to this country they have been carrying it to France. I have said that is not legitimate shipowning It is very different indeed to the shipowner who has no intention of retiring from his trade. For instance, the Cunard or the Castle Line maintain their services whether the times are good or bad, whether the freights are high or low, and whether they are earning good or bad freights. That is legitimate shipowning, and it is to that class that this country owes her maritime supremacy. Perhaps the Chancellor of the Exchequer will tell us whether he is a shareholder in those ships which were free from requisition on the 31st of December last. I may mention, with regard to the ships to which I have been referring, that they were all Glasgow owned and were run with that rigid regard to economy of which a Scotsman alone is capable. I again say that it is imperative on the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give us further and fuller—in fact, the fullest—information regarding his investments. These tramp steamers are in a very different category from liner steamers, which, as I say, have to keep up their fixed regular itinerary and sail whether they are full or not, and whether they are earning large money or little money.
The right hon. Gentleman, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, must know that there are some regular liner companies which have paid no Excess Profits Duty whatever, for the simple reason that they have not earned it, and there are other cases where there have been actual losses. I think I am entitled to ask this question from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If he had had the misfortune to have been a shareholder in ships which had made losses instead of making what he described as enormous, or rather disgraceful, profits, would he have come down to this House and have told us of his losses, and stated that they were a fair representation of the shipping trade? I venture to assert that would have been as misleading as the statement which he did make. Of course, I suppose everything is permissible in Debate, and the right hon. Gentleman did score one or two debating points, but we have got to look at something more than debating points. The right hon. Gentleman began by making his statement about his profits, and then he explained dramatically, "And this is the trade the Government are ruining." I made no suggestion during my speech of the ruin of the tramp owner, for the simple reason that the tramp owner has no special trade, but I did draw the attention of the Committee to the wholesale withdrawal of our liner steamships from all our foreign trades, in which they had been running between two neutral foreign countries. I pointed out that this wholesale withdrawal had enabled the foreigner to step in and secure those trades which had cost us generations and millions of money to build up, and that the whole of the profits which the British shipowners had made would not recompense them if they lost their foreign trade, nor would the duty which the Chancellor of the Exchequer was collecting from the shipowners pay the nation for the loss of those trades.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted that he had no experience of liners, and said that possibly the tramp had done better. He was quite right there. Unquestionably, the tramps have done better, for, as I have pointed out, they have no regular trade, they have no goodwill to lose, and few, if any, were saddled with long contracts at low pre-war rates which they have had to carry out. Everything in this world, however, is relative and comparative, and the enormous profits which the Chancellor of the Exchequer describes the tramp owner as having been earning are paltry as compared with the profits which the neutral shipowners have been earning. They have been getting higher freights in every direction. I will give a few examples. Whilst British tramp steamship owners which are requisitioned by the Government have been receiving 6s. per ton per month on the deadweight, the owners of neutral ships chartered by the British Government have been receiving from the British Government from 50s. to 55s. per ton on the deadweight; whilst British shipowners have been getting 8s. per quarter on the carriage of wheat from the United States to this country, neutrals have been getting 42s. 6d. and 45s.; and whilst British steamship owners have been getting 60s. per ton for bringing rice from Burmah to this country, neutral steamship owners have been getting 500s. per ton for the conveyance of rice from Burmah to France. Neutral steamship owners, consequently, have been paying very much higher dividends to their shareholders than British shipowners, and they have also been piling up enormous reserves with which to build ships, which will be brought into competition with the British shipowner and with this country after the War. The neutral shipowner, mark you, is not subjected to the heavy taxation which the British shipowner has to pay. I am not objecting to the taxation, except in so far as it deprives us of reserves to build further ships with which to meet foreign competition. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer told the House that the British steamship owner paid into the Treasury in Excess Profits Duty and Income Tax 78 per cent. of his entire earnings; and this was at a time when the Excess Profits Duty was 60 per cent. It will be. seen, therefore, how the British shipowner is handicapped against the neutral shipowner.
The Prime Minister, in one of his speeches, informed us that shipping was the jugular vein and life-blood of this nation—it is true—and he called for ships, and more ships, and more ships. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer, like the doctor of old, considers that bleeding is a cure for weakness. He scoffed at my suggestion, or at the idea that our foreign trades—that is, running between neutral foreign countries—was being lost and ruined, and he furthermore ridiculed the idea of the possibility of our losing our maritime supremacy. Unless something is done to increase the number of British ships, I very much fear, in view of the great activity in building foreign ships in Japan, in China, and in the United States, that British maritime supremacy is in grave danger, for the Chancellor of the Exchequer appears to be more exercised in taxing the shipowner than in preserving British shipping. In the taxation of the British shipowner the right hon. Gentleman's foresight is on a par with the cupidity of the old woman in the fable, who, when too late, found out the folly of her action. I have pointed out that the Government is the profiteer, and not the British shipowner. British ships—90 per cent. of them are requisitioned—are being run at Blue Book rates, and the Government is taking all the profits that the ship earns over those rates. In many instances these profits are very considerable. Not satisfied with these profits, the Government in several instances have instructed the shipowner to charge higher freights, presumably for the purpose of producing further profits. The Government is injuring the British shipowner, while it is pampering the neutral shipowner. It is endowing the farmer, while it is penalising the British shipowner. I think the public will find, as a result, that the poor man's loaf is likely to be a dear loaf for many years to come.
I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer will realise how ill-advised was the speech that he made in Committee. He led the public, who have been misinformed and misdirected, to believe that the shipowner was the profiteer, and that he was making his profits out of the food of the people. The effect of that speech has been deplorable. Following upon it we have had a strike in Liverpool of the iron-workers, and ships have been held up. Some of the prominent Labour Members have told me the effect of that speech upon the labouring classes, and no doubt they will also inform the Chancellor of the Exchequer what they have found out. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer has shown that he has very little knowledge of shipping, for if he had taken the trouble to inquire into matters, as his predecessor did, he would have found that very little of the shipowner's profits were made out of the food of the people, but that the greater part of those profits were made out of foreign nations by ships which did not come to this country, and therefore did not carry any food to the country, which did not take any money out of the country, but which brought large sums of money into the country for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to tax. I am not surprised at the right hon. Gentleman's want of knowledge, for it was only the other day that he told us that for twenty-five years he had never done anything that he could pay or persuade someone else to do for him. I am afraid that he has been paying or persuading someone to give him information about shipping with very disastrous results. He ought to know that shipping is one of the most intricate, the most complex, and the most complicated subjects that any man ever endeavoured to investigate. I would point out to him that the possession of a few shares in tramp steamers, with the management of which he had nothing to do, and about the employment of which he appeared to be somewhat hazy, is not likely to enlighten him on the broad and extensive subject of shipping and ship owning. The Chancellor of the Exchequer told us that he was ashamed of these disgraceful profits.
Hear, hear; but he stuck to them.
All I can say is that he has successfully concealed his shame in silence for nearly three years. I presume he pocketed the dividends for two years, and it was only when all the ships, or nearly all of them were requisitioned at Blue Book rates and these disgraceful profits were no longer obtainable that he decided to turn King's evidence. He has been in a position of power for more than two years, and I want to know why he did not repent earlier and put a stop to these infamous iniquities, and why he has only found salvation and repentance now? I think we have already had the answer during the Committee Debate. But I am sorry to say that the Chancellor of the Exchequer even now does not appear to be alive or awake to the dangers which threaten British shipping, and therefore the British nation at the hands of foreign shipowners who have been piling up enormous profits. He said that he had yielded to popular opinion and had studied the opinion of the man in the street. If popular opinion is misdirected and mislead—and mislead for very obvious reasons, for, as I have pointed out, the Government, to hide their own mistakes and blunders, have used the British shipowner as their whipping boy and scapegoat—it is not surprising that the man in the street should form erroneous opinions. It is very unfortunate that these opinions have been formed. The speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer will do an infinity of harm throughout this country. Already we have disturbances and strikes among the working classes; already we have an uneasiness in commercial and banking circles. Once a feeling of security is disturbed, credit is shaken, enterprise is restricted, prosperity is checked, and the revenue of the country is imperilled. It would have been well if the Chancellor of the Exchequer had thought of all these things before he inflicted the stigma and the shame upon British owners which are altogether unmerited by them. The British shipowner has accepted these conditions, as he will accept any other condition if it is in the interests of the country. We did not divide against this objectionable Clause, but I do enter my protest against the inclusion of a Clause like this in the Statute Book, which will be of no benefit to the nation or to the Government, but will merely inflict shame and stigma on the British shipowner.
I desire to direct the attention of the House to a matter of very considerable importance which received no consideration at all on the Report stage of the Bill. Not only so, but we received no statement whatever from the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to the object of the far-reaching change covered by the Amendment introduced to Clause 25 last night, or any reason why the Government thought it necessary to make it. As I will show in a few moments, the Amendment, in effect, grants exemption from the Excess Profits Duty to all the societies trading under the Industrial and Provident Societies Acts, or, rather, to be strictly accurate, it does not so much grant exemption as to show the way and make easy the complete evasion of all Excess Profits Duty in future. The Amendment, which was moved by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, without comment last night, just after eleven o'clock, occupies twenty-eight lines. It seems rather a complicated business. It certainly does not lack verbiage, but it might have been put briefly in this way: The Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes in future that a society run under the Industrial and Provident Societies Acts, if the society so requires, may make its return for Excess Profits Duty on a basis different from that which has obtained before, and which is incorporated in the principal Act and from the basis upon which any trading society, or company, or firm, have to make the return for their business for the purposes of the Excess Profits Duty. In the first place, the trade with non-members is to be divided from the trade with members. Trade with non-members is to be assessed for Excess Profits Duty, and in accordance with the general principles of the principal Act, while the trade with members is only to pay Excess Profits Duty on what amounts to an increased percentage in the pound sterling of the profit or surplus on that trade. It is impossible to divide the trade with members from the trade with non-members—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]—for the simple reason that anyone can become a member of one of these societies upon the payment of a trifling sum, usually 1s. a year. I will tell the House from the latest work issued by the Co-operative Union, written by Mr. H. J. May, what is the policy in regard to the inclusion of members of these societies. He writes this: show to the House what is the class of trade that is done, and then they can judge whether these societies really are entitled to a totally different measure for the payment of the Excess Profits Duty from anybody else. Take Rule 2 of the Scottish Go-operative Wholesale Society, Limited, which says that that society is established
As my excuse for calling attention as prominently as I can to the matter and asking for some statement with regard to it, the House should know what has been the course of the trade of these societies since 1913, which, presumably, would be the standard year. Between 1913 and 1914 there was an increase in the turnover, according to the "Board of Trade Labour Gazette" for April of this year, in the retail trade, of £10,000,000 in round figures, and In the productive trade of £2,500,000, or a total of £12,500,000. Between 1914 and 1915 there was an increase in the retail trade of £25,000,000, and in the productive trade of £8,500,000—total £33,500,000. Therefore there is an increased business between 1913 and 1915 of £56,000,000. Allowing for the very much more rapid growth that has been taking place recently and the very large increase in the price of all commodities, if we had the figures for 1916 I have not the slightest doubt that we should find that the increase is at least £50,000,000 as between 1915 and 1916. That Being so, you find an excess trade, from the standard year up to the end of 1916, which in round figures would be £100,000,000. Taking the profit or surplus, or whichever they like to call it—the Chancellor of the Exchequer is well advised in using those words in this Bill—at 10 per cent., you have an excess profit of £10,000,000, 80 per cent. of which is £8,000,000. So that the road is opened to the non-payment by these societies of an Excess Profits Duty of £8,000,000. Surely that is worth while mentioning in a word or two, since during the Debates in the Committee stage and Report stage of the Bill we have heard of the impossibility of granting the smallest concession. When the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) asked only last night that the allowance in respect of children's education should be made in respect of children up to the age of eighteen, the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave the conventional answer, "We have done a great deal, and although it does not amount to very much, we cannot spare another penny." Yet he thought it worth while, when he had come into a state of affluence between ten and eleven o'clock last night, to throw away £8,000,000 without a word of explanation. With regard to this profit or surplus, it is interesting to see that a great deal seems to turn in the matter of industrial trading on the words actually used. The original Act says that steps should be taken to set forth clearly the amount of profit that is made. I find in the "Scottish Co-operator" of 22nd September, 1916, the following statement: not make any difference whether you are asked 2s. less or given 2s. more to pay for the article. So far as that is concerned I cannot see any reason for special treatment in this matter. What I particularly want is for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to explain to the House what has occurred that has made him introduce his Amendment to Clause 25 at so, to speak, the very last moment, and to pass it, sub silentio, last night at eleven o'clock. I was given to understand that although some pressure has been brought to bear, mainly by the retailers in the country as a whole, for the reconsideration—in view of the enormous rate to which Income Tax has now been raised—of the special immunity from Income Tax for these societies, that the Government were going to do nothing in the matter until after the War, and that they were going to stand equally firm on the other side and stick to the Excess Profits Duty imposed two years ago. Evidently they have changed their minds, and I would very much like to know if the Chancellor of the Exchequer, before he finally passes this Bill, will tell us why that is so, because I certainly think the matter is of sufficient importance to deserve attention.
There is only one other point I would like to mention, and that is one I think of very great importance. We have sooner or later to pay for this War. We have to pay for as much of it as the country possibly can while the War is going on in order to maintain the credit of the country, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer has pointed out to us on more than one occasion. If this principle which is really now laid down, that in respect of any special war taxation—the Excess Profits Duty was held by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer not really to be a tax at all, but a war levy; that was his expression—£250,000,000 of a growing trade of the country is to be kept outside the pale—"hands off," as it were—and co-operators, who I do not think as a whole desire it at all, are to be raised to the position of a kind of conscientious objector to contributing to war expenditure; if that is to be the case; if no direct Income Tax is collected at the source on the trade, and no Excess Profits Tax or War Levy, what is the result? You will get a steadily narrowing circle of taxation which will narrow in geometrical progression, and you will get this community growing constantly until Mr. May's hope and policy of the industrial societies is realised, and they have enrolled all the community as their members. I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer who, in that case, is going to pay for the War, and where is the taxation coming from if he pursues this policy? He will find if he gives such terms as this to one privileged class of trade in the country that he will give a direct incentive to an increased membership and turnover in these societies, until there will be very little left for the ordinary retail traders of the country. They have already complained that the competition, with a 5s. Income Tax, with these curled darlings of democracy is monstrous. I say we are within a measurable distance of so handicapping the regular trade of the country that it will cease to exist, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer will find out too late that he has literally killed the goose that has hitherto laid the golden eggs; but what I complain most of is that he has not thought it worth while to explain in a single word why he has reversed the policy of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, which was a step in the direction of equalising the burden, and has make this new departure without a word of explanation to the House.
I should like to say a word with regard to the speech upon shipping freights made, by the hon. Member for the West Toxteth Division of Liverpool (Mr. Houston). He has tried to make out—and I dare say he has made out—a very good case as regards the high-class shipowners, of which I have no doubt he is the representative in this House. It is quite probable, indeed, I think it is the case, that some of the large steamship owners did at the earliest part of the War give up their ships to the Government, either willingly, voluntarily, or else without at all events complaining of them being taken compulsorily, and that they have made less profit than the owners of those steamers which were free and not commandeered by the Government at all. It may be true, but incidentally in the course of his speech, and in order to prove that case, he did show that there were a large number of shipowners who had profiteered in a most disgraceful way, because he gave examples of ships the profits upon which were infinitely larger than any the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself has mentioned.
But, after all, the question ought not to be discussed on the basis of a single instance of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's chance investments in a few scattered ships. The only way in which the question can be understood is by taking the average profits of the shipowners and seeing how much money they have left in their hands for the purposes of increasing the British Mercantile Marine when the state of labour in this country will allow them to build fresh ships or to buy them. The object of the Section which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has introduced into the Finance Bill is to say to the shipowners that they shall not be on the same basis as other trades, because their profits have been so out of the way enormous that they must have plenty of money in hand with which to make up any deficiencies in later years of the War. What are the figures? I have not brought them with me, but I think I have them in my head accurately. They appear in the "Statist." The hon. Member for West Toxteth very skilfully, I think—I am sorry he was not here at the commencement of my speech when I said I thought he has made out a case that the high-class shipowners had not been unduly profiteering—made out that case, but I very much regret that he confined himself to the figures the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave and did not take those of the general average of the shipping trade. The figures are as follows. Net profits, 1916—
Is that from the "Statist"?
Yes.
May I interrupt? Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that that statement in the "Statist" was a mere estimate, and that it has been proved to be absolutely incorrect, and has been contradicted?
The answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's question is in the affirmative, and that to the latter part in the negative, because the experts who have criticised the figures of the "Statist" say that those figures are below the mark, and therefore I am not aware that that has been controverted in any way. In any case, let us see what the figures were that were given by the "Statist." The net profit for 1916, after paying all expenses except taxation—except Excess Profits Tax—the absolute net profit was no less a sum than £250,000,000 on a capital of £200,000,000. Those are the net profits. Out of that £250,000,000 they have paid to the State in Excess Profits Duty £115,000,000, which left £135,000,000 in the pockets of the shipowners as a net profit on a capital of £200,000,000. If from that £135,000,000 they deducted ordinary Income Tax, there would be left an enormous sum of money with which they would be able to build or purchase ships after the War if they desired to do so. That is the broad case, and that shows that though some of these shipowners have made fairly moderate profits, some of them have made extortionate profits. I appeal to the instances the hon. Member for West Toxteth has given himself to show that it is proved out of his own mouth that there has been extortionate profits. He said so. What is the average dividend paid after Excess Profits Tax has been paid? The average interest on the £200,000,000 capital in 1916 was 67½ per cent., as against 10½ per cent. in the year before the War, 1913. Compare the net profits of 1913 with the net profits of 1916, and you find that the net profits for 1913 were £20,000,000 and the net profits for 1916 were £250,000,000. That is the case on which, I suppose, the Chancellor of the Exchequer based this amendment of the law, and I venture to think he was justified in the action that he took. I am sorry that the hon. Member for the West Toxteth Division confined himself entirely to an attack upon the Prime Minister's figures. I do not know whether he was in the House when I gave these figures in Committee, but I do not see why he did not answer those figures then or to-day. He has not tried to do it, because, I think, they cannot be answered. It is all very well for the hon. Member to say that the profits made by the neutral ships are so enormously larger than those made by our own ships. That is only recently.
No.
Allow me for a moment. I know something about it too. I never bad anything to do with shipping in my life until I saw these freights going up by leaps and bounds, and I took up the question. I was answered in the "Morning Post" by a gentleman related to the hon. Member who has interrupted me. In the early part of the War, the first two years or so, the neutral freights were only slightly in excess of English shipping freights. For instance, where the English freight was 135s. the neutral freights were 140s. and 145s. When, however, the English Government had commandeered practically the whole of the shipping, and had put them on Blue Book rates, the neutrals were the only free ships, and from that moment, only comparatively recently, the middle or end of last year, there arose a great disparity of rates between neutrals and English.
I am sorry to interrupt, but the hon. Gentleman is not correct. Long before the British ships were taken at Blue Book rates freights were directed by the Government.
Not at anything like the rate at which the hon. Member for West Toxteth has given them to the House, namely, 6s. per ton per month dead-weight, as against 50s. to the neutral. That certainly was not the case in the early days of the War.
I am sorry to keep on interrupting, but the hon. Member is absolutely wrong. The rates for tramps were 6s. per ton for dead-weight.
5.0 P.M.
At the early part of the War an enormous number of ships were not commandeered at Blue Book rates at all. I am quite sure about that. The hon. Member said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was using bleeding as a remedy for weakness. He is not. He is bleeding them for a surfeit of profit for fear they should get appoplexy. The hon. Member asks what is the effect upon labour. Labour knows very well that there is profiteering in this country in many directions, too many directions. It is a cause of the greatest possible unrest, and next to food prices I suppose it is one of the most serious factors in the minds of the working men. What is the best way of tackling it? Not for this House to pretend that it does not exist, and to slur it over, but to face it wherever it does exist, and for the Government to try and put it down, and every man to set his face. Some of the shipowners have not put their enormous profits—and here I am referring more particularly to owners of tramp steamers—into new ships; they have put them into their own pockets and have utilised them for the purchase of estates in England and Scotland; possibly some of them may hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will eventually put them into the peerage. I can only say if the Government makes a shipowner a peer after the revelations regarding excess profits which we have had, I shall bring forward a Motion in this House not only for the abolition of the House of Lords, but also for the abolition of the peerage. It is high time the British public knew the true facts of the case. I have tried to state them. The hon. Member for Liverpool has claimed that some shipowners have been so unfortunate as not to make enough money to render them liable to the Excess Profits Duty. We are sorry for those who are in that position. I daresay they have been patriotic; possibly the hon. Member himself is one of those who have not made these profits. But then these particular shipowners do not come within this Section at all, it is only those who have made enormous excess profits who are touched by the Section.
May I refer to another subject arising out of Section 23 of the Bill, and which deals with arrangements between this country and the Dominions with regard to preventing the unfair incidence of taxation by calling upon persons who live in this country but draw their incomes from the Dominions to pay excess profits twice over. When I moved that the benefits of that Section should be extended to other Allies as well as the Dominions, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in intimating that he could not accept the Amendment, said that, although, as I had stated, France had agreed to do this, it had hardly come into force. I have only risen for the purpose of informing the right hon. Gentleman that, according to the information I have obtained from the London Chamber of Commerce, the exact situation of the matter is this: The law is in existence in France, and profits realised by businesses carried on abroad by companies having their head offices in France are not liable to duty at all. I have here a translation of the Section, which runs to the effect that in order to compare normal profits with those realised during the period of the War, the profits are constituted on the total net return of the various undertakings not carried on in France by the taxpayer, and any loss resulting in a deficit on any enterprise is to be deducted. That means that whatever follows they do not take into account, for taxation purposes, income earned outside France. With regard to what the hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Peto) said about industrial co-operative societies, his statement was that there had been an increase of £56,000,000 in the turnover during the last two years, and he suggested that that ought to be taxed. But the fact is that the prices of food have something like doubled in that period, so that one-half of that increased turnover would be due solely to those higher prices. That being so, the whole of the figures the hon. Member gave the House, and the horrible picture he painted of loss to the Exchequer of hundreds; of millions sterling, is, I am afraid, not very accurate.
I do not intend to follow the last speaker in his criticisms of shipowners' excess profits. The shipowners are well represented in this House, and are quite capable of looking after themselves. No doubt they will give a reply in due course. But I do think the speech of the hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Peto) calls for some reply. I wonder it was not delivered either in Committee or on the Report stage.
It was quite impossible for me to deliver the speech in the Committee stage, because this particular Motion was only put down on Report. Last night I did rise in order to speak on the question, but I was not fortunate enough to catch Mr. Speaker's eye. It was after eleven o'clock, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer made no remarks in moving his Amendment.
There was considerable discussion on one of the new Clauses, and it was in the course of that discussion that the Chancellor of the Exchequer agreed to bring up his proposals on the Report stage, proposals which, I believe, have given general satisfaction and command general assent. The co-operative societies, it is generally admitted, had a real grievance. The bulk of the members belong to the working class and are below the Income Tax limit. It would be an unfair thing to single out for taxation that part of the industrial population which has had the foresight to build up an industrial undertaking so that by joint trading the members may enjoy the advantage of low prices. The hon. Member for Devizes laboured very hard to prove that the incomes of these societies were really in the same category as dividends on shares. I would ask him this: What would he say if the Treasury offi- cials or Income Tax collectors came round to him and endeavoured to collect Income Tax on the discount he received on his tailor's bills? Yet the dividends that members of the co-operative societies earn are substantially in that category; they are discounts on purchases, and the larger the amount of purchases the larger is the discount or dividend received by the member. The members of these co-operative societies are prepared to pay Income Tax on increased profits earned by industrial trading; they are prepared to do that also in regard to their dealings with the outside public who are not members of their society, and the Amendment skilfully drawn up by the Chancellor of the Exchequer meets that case and constitutes, I think, a measure of justice.
But I do not rise in order to reply to the hon. Member for Devizes. What I got up for was to make an appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give us a clear statement on the financial position. He has very skilfully guided this Bill through the House in spite of considerable criticisms from all quarters. I am one of those who have endeavoured to get concessions, and I think every Member of the House will agree that the right hon. Gentleman has been sweetly reasonable in his endeavours to meet every just grievance. But we are faced with a very serious position. This Finance Bill runs very far short of providing the financial necessities for the year, and the right hon. Gentleman will either have to make more stringent provision for taxation or the Government will be forced to make another appeal for a Victory Loan. Undoubtedly the position is serious, the expenditure is increasing; it is mounting up day by day; there is no sign of any possible reduction. It is true it has been foreshadowed that a Committee of this House is to be appointed to endeavour to find some means of economising our public expenditure, but clearly many months must elapse before the Committee will be effective. Meanwhile, the expenditure will go on, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be faced with the necessity either of asking for larger supplies from this House or alternatively of making another appeal to the public for money. I think this is a fitting opportunity for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make clear how long the present provision will supply the necessi- ties of the nation, and to what extent it will help to provide money for the continuance of the War.
I desire to support the statement made by the hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Peto) in regard to what took place last night. I cannot admit it is the general view that hon. Members are satisfied with the Government Amendment moved late last night, and I say this for the very simple reason that the average Member of the House did not understand it, and did not even know that it was to be moved. A few minutes after 11 o'clock last night I happened to look at the Order Paper, and I saw, standing in the name of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, an Amendment occupying something like 28 lines. I read it very carefully; I admit I did not understand it. I naturally thought some explanation would be given, and I made up my mind that if none were offered I would ask for one. Remember it was very late, and we had nearly reached the end of the discussion. The Government had consented to four Amendments of mine, either directly or indirectly, by substituting words of their own, and, being of a somewhat weak disposition, I did not, under the circumstances, get up and insist on having the explanation which ought to have been given. An Amendment of that sort ought not to be moved to the Finance Bill without explanations having been given. It is very easy to get an Amendment or a Clause which the vast majority of the House not only does not know anything about, but does not understand. With regard to the merits of the question, I am not sure that I have made up mind which is right. I do not quite admit that discount cannot be taken as dividend. It may be perfectly easy to avoid the payment of a dividend by giving a discount, and I am not at all sure that that is not what co-operators have done. I hold the view that everyone is liable to pay Income Tax, and I do not believe in these exceptions, even if they happen to belong to what have been called the curled darlings of the working classes. I hope my right hon. Friend will give us certain information about the Amendment which I think ought to have been given last night.
Whatever comments may be made upon the position of co-operative societies in regard to ordinary Income Tax, I think the Chancellor of the Ex- chequer's Clause passed late last night is a simple act of justice towards the co-operative societies. An error slipped into the Act two years ago and he has put it right. I am very glad the step has been taken. What really brought me to my feet was that I wished to thank my right hon. Friend, on behalf of the chambers of commerce and other bodies of the kind in Scotland, for Clause 36, in which he redeems various promises made in the Glasgow speech when floating the War Loan, which he regarded as part of the prospectus of that War Loan. For forty or fifty years a great deal of irritation has existed between the Bank of England and business men in Scotland, and I am sure this new Clause really removes nine-tenths of these difficulties, and I hope for the future they will cease to exist. There are one or two things which the chambers of commerce in Scotland are still anxious that he should do, and I think he has a further short Bill dealing with one or two of them on the stocks. I hope before long that Bill also will be brought into the House. Meantime, in Scotland, we are much obliged to him for what he has done, and we believe that the result of the Clause will be a better state of feeling in the future.
I hope the House, in view of the situation at which we have arrived, will not expect me to make a speech of a length proportionate to the seriousness of the subject with which we are dealing and with the financial position in which this country stands. But I think, as a matter of fact, that almost all the subjects with which I could deal this afternoon have been dealt with at various stages of the Bill, and I hope it will be the general view of the House that we might now get the Third Reading and enable the House to proceed to other business which I hope to see carried through. As regards what has just been stated by my hon. Friend (Mr. Currie), it is a pleasure to me to find that in the view of a representative of Scotland I have done something to please my fellow countrymen there. When I was in Glasgow, engaged in the natural operation of getting as much money as I could for the War Loan, it was indicated to me that Scotland had a great number of grievances in matters of detail. I then gave a pledge that any real grievance would be removed if it were in my power to remove it. As soon as I came back I set the Department to work, and the result is that practically all these grievances have been removed.
To take up the subjects which have been raised to-day, the one on which I think there is some cause for criticism is that in relation to the Excess Profits Tax as applied to industrial societies. I do not think I am much to blame in the matter, as I am sure my right hon. Friend would be the first to admit. I am quite certain he has never known a Chancellor of the Exchequer, or any other Minister, who got up to interrupt a speaker when he was getting to the end of his Bill, and as the Amendment had been on the Paper for two or three days I had the feeling that if anything was needed someone interested in it would give me an opportunity of saying something about it. I admit, however, that the subject was so important that if it had not been so late I should have thought it necessary to say something about it. I am quite ready to confess that I had great difficulty in dealing with this matter. I did not share to the full either the views of my hon. Friend below the Gangway or of those who take so strongly the other view. When I looked into the basis on which the Excess Profits Duty was levied on co-operative societies I found, what I am sure anyone who examines the subject will find, that there was no justification for the method on which this Excess Profits Duty was being levied. There really was no logical basis on which I could defend it. Then we come down to this, that at the time when this duty was put on there was a feeling that people doing this immense amount of trade ought to contribute something to the War. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer came into consultation with the representatives of these societies. He made an arrangement which is not at all on a par with any other system on which Excess Profits Duty is levied. He carried through this arrangement with the goodwill and co-operation of these bodies, and if it had been opposed, in view of there being no justification in logic for taking Excess Profits Duty when you do not take Income Tax, I do not believe we could have carried it through against the opposition of the societies. My right hon. Friend who was responsible for making this bargain told us in Committee that it was made on a wrong understanding. In view of the way in which prices had risen, it was not intended when the bargain was made that it should form a part of the excess profits. It upset the whole arrangement. Under these circumstances I was bound to look at it from that point of view, and what the Amendment does is to put the arrangement back precisely in the position where the co-operative societies on the one hand and the late Chancellor of the Exchequer on the other said it was intended to be at the time the arrangement was made. That is the position, and I hope the House will think that is a sufficient justification for what I have done.
But it does not deal with the present situation at all. I believe these societies have done a great deal of good in the country, but they are doing an exceedingly large share of the retail trade of the country, and although they do not make profits in the ordinary sense, it comes to this, that that immense share of the trade is done without paying the share to the revenue which is borne by other traders. I think that is something that ought to be remedied. I think members of co-operative societies themselves will see that that is not quite a reasonable position, and that some arrangement later on will be possible which will make it fairer from that point of view. I can assure my hon. Friends that I sympathise with retail traders in connection with this matter, and the concessions which were deliberately made in this Bill in regard to excess profits to meet the case of small businesses go an immense way in the case of all retail traders except those on a big scale, who are doing a very large business, so that if it be true that we have taken away a certain amount of the charge that fell on these societies, it is equally true that we have to a considerable extent relieved the small retail trader from the burden which he would pay under the Excess Profits Tax.
Under the Amendment on Clause 25 does my right hon. Friend think, as a matter of fact, he will collect any appreciable Excess Profits Tax from the co-operative societies at all?
It is very difficult to give an estimate, but my advisers tell me it would probably have been, on the basis of the last year, something like £1,000,000. That is all I can say on the subject, and I hope the House, realising that it is really a very difficult position, will on the whole think I have dealt with it in the best way possible. The next subject which was raised is one on which I nave said everything it is possible to say, and I, if I have not succeeded in convincing both the public and the shipowners that the arrangement I made was intended to ensure that we should have to control the industry and prevent excessive profits in the future, I shall not succeed in anything I say now. My hon. Friend said I adopted the plan of a man who has a bad case in abusing plaintiffs counsel. I did not think I abused him, and if he is the advocate of the shipowners, which I was not aware of, I must congratulate them on their advocacy.
The only other point on which I think it is necessary to say a word is as to our general financial position. I do not think the House will expect me to go info that at any length now. I said all I think I could usefully say about it when the Bill was introduced, and I repeated it again on the Second Reading and on various occasions on the different stages it has gone through. I have realised as strongly as anyone, and from my position perhaps more keenly, what our position is. Do not let the House imagine for a moment that the country can go on spending money at the rate we are doing without serious disadvantage to the country. What is more, the disadvantage, I fear, will be realised more completely when the War comes to an end than it is being realised now. As long as we are raising money by loan and the money is being spent and industry is going on, we are living in a false atmosphere. It is only when that comes to an end that we shall realise what the true position is, and I do not hesitate for a moment to say that it will be a position which will require all the skill and wisdom of which this House and the Government, whatever it is which is then in power, can exercise to prevent a very serious situation arising even after we have won victory in the terrible struggle in which we are engaged. But in the meantime what we have to do is to try to finance the War in the way which will do least harm both then and now. That is our business. I should have liked, if it had been possible, to raise a still larger part of the expenditure out of Revenue. My right hon. Friend said to me yesterday in relation to one of the taxes which we are imposing that his view was that perhaps we should do better not to impose such a tax, but to trust to borrowing. On the other hand, many Members take the view that we have not put nearly enough on by way of taxation, and that we ought to have put more. I would point out to the House that you cannot have the two things side by side. You cannot try to get a large part of the expenditure necessary for the War out of loans and at the same time tax industry to such an extent that it can hardly go on, and there is no surplus that can be lent. You cannot get both. In my belief nothing would be worse for the country than to lay your taxation upon such an overwhelming basis that every means of carrying on would be taken away altogether. I think so far, considering the amount of expenditure we have incurred, and considering the length of the War, the credit of this country has been wonderfully maintained. I believe that is largely due to two things, first, that the classes who have been called upon to pay the taxation have assented to it, although with a good deal of grumbling, perhaps, like my hon. Friend (Mr. Houston) and his friends.
I cannot allow the right hon. Gentleman to make that statement. We are not grumbling over the taxation, we are only grumbling over the shame which has been put upon us.
I will leave it at this, that it is discontent with the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
I do not wish the right hon. Gentleman to even think that.
We will leave it at that. On the whole, all classes have submitted to the taxation with willingness, although nobody likes it and every person thinks he has been treated worse than his neighbour. On the whole it has had this result, that we have received money from taxation which would have been utterly impossible but for the War. We are often told that people who have lent money to the State are making a very good investment and are thinking only of themselves. That is not true. I know, as a matter of fact, that in the case of the last loan people did go to great lengths, and not only put themselves to inconvenience but ran great risks in order to help the country. My hon. Friend behind me rather implied that he would like me to tell him what we are going to do in the future in the way of raising the necessary money. I am not going to tell him, but I will say this: that if the occasion comes for another loan—of course no one would ever dream of getting the same amount as we got last time—I am convinced that we shall get so far as is possible the same response from the patriotism of people who have money to lend.
Question, "That the Bill be now read the third time," put, and agreed to.
Bill read the third time.
CLAUSE 25.—(Amendments of Law as Respects Accounting Periods Ending after December 31st, 1916.)
(8) The Excess Profits Duty of a society registered under the Industrial and Provident Societies Acts may, if the society so requires, instead of being computed as provided for by paragraph ten of Part I. of the First (Schedule to the principal Act, be computed as follows:
The amount of excess profits (if any) arising on commercial transactions with non-members shall be separately ascertained in accordance with the general principles of the principal Act, and there shall be added thereto the amount (if any) by which the profit or surplus arising from transactions with members per pound sterling of turnover in the accounting period exceeds the like profit or surplus in the pre-war trade year or average of years taken as the basis of computation for the purpose of the prewar standard of profits in respect of such commercial transactions as aforesaid, multiplied by the number of pounds sterling of turnover in the accounting period; and Excess Profits Duty shall be charged on the sum of those amounts.
Provided that the method of computation hereby laid down shall not be adopted for ascertaining the amount of any deficiency or loss for the purposes of Subsection (3) of Section thirty-eight of the principal Act, nor shall any duty computed under this provision be repaid or remitted by reason of a deficiency or loss in any other accounting period computed as provided for by the said paragraph (10).
Regulations made by the Commissioners for the purpose of carrying the foregoing provision into effect may provide for defining and ascertaining turnover and the profit or surplus per pound sterling thereof, and for the application of that provision to new societies, and for extending, subject to such modifications as may be prescribed, to cases where duty is computed under that provision of the general principles of the principal Act as to relief from duty.
I beg to move, as an Amendment to Sub-section (8), to leave out the word "First" ["First Schedule"], and to insert instead thereof the word "Fourth."
In the Amendment as printed the Fourth Schedule was wrongly described as the First Schedule, and the verbal Amendment which I now propose merely consists of the substitution of the Fourth for the First Schedule.
This is a Committee point. Ought not the proper course to be to move to recommit the Bill? That may or may not be the proper course, but I think we ought to guard the position of the House of Commons if we can. I am only asking for information. The Bill has been passed for the third time. You are now making an Amendment to something which is in the Bill. Is not this a Committee point which requires the recommital of the Bill?
The hon. Member is well entitled to raise the point. It rests with the Speaker to satisfy himself that any Amendment proposed on the Third Reading, according to the Rules of the House, is of a purely verbal nature, or is to correct a misprint. It is done in order to avoid the necessity of making even such an Amendment in another place. It is quite in accordance with practice to make an Amendment of this kind on the Third Reading, and the responsibility lies with the Speaker to satisfy himself that it is only of that nature.
Amendment agreed to
Bill passed.
Naval and Military War Pensions, Etc. (Transfer of Powers), Bill
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 1.—(Dissolution of Statutory Committee.)
As from such date as may be fixed by His Majesty by Order in Council (hereinafter referred to as the appointed day), the Statutory Committee constituted by the Naval and Military War Pensions, etc., Act, 1915 (hereinafter referred to as the principal Act), shall be dissolved, and there shall be transferred to the Minister of Pensions all the powers, duties, and functions of the Statutory Committee except such as are by this Act transferred to the Royal Patriotic Fund Corporation (hereinafter referred to as the Corporation), or as are conferred on the Statutory Committee by the provisions of the principal Act which are repealed by this Act, and the enactments relating to the powers, duties, and functions so transferred shall apply accordingly, subject to the following modifications:—
(i.) References to separation allowances payable out of public funds shall be construed as references to separation allowances payable out of money voted by Parliament for Navy and Army services,
(ii.) References to funds at the disposal of the Statutory Committee shall be construed as references to moneys provided by Parliament for the purposes of the Ministry of Pensions.
The following Amendment stood on the Paper in the name of Mr. HOGGE: To leave out the words "except such as are by this Act transferred to the Royal Patriotic Fund Corporation (herinafter referred to as the Corporation)."
This Amendment was put down for a specific purpose, and perhaps it may be convenient for the Minister of Pensions to make his general statement in regard to the Bill on this Amendment. The Committee will remember that on the Second Reading it was proposed by this Bill to convey to the Royal Patriotic Fund certain powers, which already resided in the Statutory Committee, which is to be abolished by this Bill. Members felt that it would be a mistake to re-establish and endow with public money any outside organisation dealing with any matters concerning pensions for our sailors and soldiers. That point was represented to the Minister of Pensions by a large number of Members who are interested in these matters, and according to the Amendments which are now on the Paper and which have been discussed among those interested, the Royal Patriotic Fund is taken out of this Bill and a new arrangement is made. I will not say what that arrangement is, but I will leave it to the Minister of Pensions to describe it. I wish to say this on behalf of those who have been watching this Bill, that the Amendments which are now made, and which retain within the power of the Minister of Pensions everything that we want to retain, have met our position. The only point on which there may be some small difference of opinion is on the question of whether or not my right hon. Friend is going to the length he might go in taking only £500,000 of this public Grant. I would like hon. Members to watch this point while we are discussing it this afternoon. I would remind them that £1,000,000 were granted by the Treasury for the purposes of the Statutory Committee. The objects of the Statutory Committee were to meet cases which did not fall within the four corners of the Warrant. This Bill transfers to the new body those powers, but it does not transfer the whole of the money. The original proposal was to transfer a quarter of a million and the proposal now is to transfer half a million. The point I was making is this, that having secured £1,000,000 from the Treasury for the express purpose of meeting certain needs through the Statutory Committee, I do not see why those of us who are interested in this problem should hand any of that money back to the Treasury. The right hon. Gentleman finds a difficulty in extracting money from the Treasury. The officers' warrant just published has been delayed, not because he wished it to be delayed, but because of Treasury delays mainly. I want to make that one caveat. I believe there is a manuscript Amendment from an hon. Member who is not here. I wonder if, in addition to the Amendments which he has put down, the right hon. Gentleman could go further than he has gone and try to get the whole amount. Otherwise I am perfectly satisfied, and I do not propose to move the Amendment which stands in my name, in view of the other Amendments which have now been put down officially.
The hon. Member is not entitled to make a speech without moving his Amendment.
I beg to move to leave out the words "except such as are by this Act transferred to the Royal Patriotic Fund Corporation (hereinafter referred to as the Corporation)."
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move to leave out the words "Royal Patriotic Fund Corporation (hereinafter called the corporation)," and to insert instead thereof the words "Committee to be constituted under this Act."
I shall have much pleasure in responding, to the appeal made by the hon. Member. This is the first of a number of Amendments which hang together. It makes a difference in the Bill if the Amendments are adopted, as I hope they will be. I feel that I owe an apology to the Committee for having introduced the Bill and then transforming it, so to speak, by a number of Amendments such as those on the Paper. However, I have made amends as far as possible by putting down the Amendments at the earliest possible moment, and I hope all hon. Members who are interested in this Bill will have read the Amendments and understand the meaning of them when they are read into the Bill. In the second place, I want to say that, notwithstanding these Amendments, the Bill in its essential features remains as it was before. That is to say, it winds up the Statutory Committee, it transfers the powers of the Statutory Committee to the Ministry for Pensions, and it also transfers certain voluntary moneys to an outside body. All those features were in the Bill when it passed some weeks ago, and they are in the Bill now, even when these Amendments are put in. I explained in introducing the Bill a week or two ago why we wanted it. It was because we found that we could not get on as promptly as we should have liked with certain things that we wanted to do, and in regard to which the Statutory Committee had the right of initiative. It is true that we could control the Statutory Committee, but we could not by that get those things done as promptly as we thought they ought to be done. That was the reason for the Bill, and the reason for the Bill remains just as it was before. The reasons for the changes now proposed are twofold—first, because objection has been taken to the outside body to which I have referred; and. second, because the outside body had objected itself to taking over the powers that we tried to impose upon them.
In regard to the first point, I think that there has been some misunderstanding. Objection has been taken to the Royal Patriotic Fund Corporation, and resolutions have been sent in to me describing it as a notorious body, or something of that sort. At any rate the word "notorious" appears in all the resolutions, and they look as if they have been engineered from some particular centre. So far as I know anything about this body I know nothing but good. I always like to speak up for my pals when I think one ought to stick up for them. It may be that this body had something the matter with it many years ago. I do not know. At any rate I have known it for the last few years, and I know it gave pensions to soldiers' widows before the State had made up its mind to do anything of the kind. I know that it has relieved soldiers' families before the State made up its mind to do anything of the kind. Therefore I am not giving way in any sense to what I regard as an unreasonable agitation in throwing over to some extent the Patriotic Fund. But there is another thing. It was said that this body was to have money—apparently this was said outside by people who pass resolutions, people of the type who are fond of passing resolutions and do nothing else, and are probably incapable of doing anything else—without any Parliamentary control. We never intended anything of the kind; on the contrary we intended to popularise this body, to put some new members on the executive, and, being entrusted with State money, that it should also be under some form of Parliamentary control. But there is a second objection to the proposal to bring in this body. This body does not care about the job except on certain conditions which it imposes on us and which we find impossible. Take only one. It found that it could not set its house in order until November. We cannot wait until November. We cannot wait until next month. This job is urgent. We know that there is a great deal of dissatisfaction all over the country because of certain bodies tying themselves up with regulations whereas what is needed here is elastic regulations if you want any regulations at all. What is wanted is that the new authority when set up should deal with the difficulty from the human point of view and not be tied up with non-elastic regulations which prevent it taking money into the home where it is urgently needed. Therefore we are not going to wait for some other authority.
That brings me to our new proposals. Briefly they are as follows: The Bill will still be of the same character as when introduced. That is to say it abolishes the Statutory Committee. It gives certain powers to the Minister of Pensions and hands over other powers to the Patriotic Fund. In so far as it differs from the Bill introduced some weeks ago it differs in this, that more power is now taken by the Ministry of Pensions, together with the new Committee that is set up, controlled by the Ministry of Pensions, and less by outside authorities. In the first place the Ministry itself retains everything to do with giving effect to the new Warrant which was introduced into this House on the 6th of last March, and everything in regard to deciding whether a person is entitled to a pension or not under the terms of that Warrant. Everything appertaining to the pensioning of widows, dependants, parents, and so forth, has also to be done by the awarding officers under the direct control of the Ministry of Pensions. Everything having to do with the care and training of soldiers and disabled men generally has all to be done by the Ministry of Pensions directly without any outside body helping at all except local bodies. Then we come to a new body, called the Special Grants Committee, which is to be set up by the Ministry of Pensions. It will consist of not more than ten persons, and the Ministry of Pensions in setting up that body is pledged to select it from those people having special experience, either as members of the Statutory Committee or of the local committee, of the administration of funds for soldiers, sailors, and their families. That body will have to supplement their pensions where the pensions are found to be insufficient for the purpose of any particular case, and included in that will be the little margin between the 36s. 7d. of the widow and the 40s., to which the widow is at present entitled in certain circumstances. There will be very few cases where the widow will get the £2, but in so far as there are such cases the new body will have to make that up.
In regard to supplementation, the hon. Member for East Edinburgh knows that perhaps the most unsatisfactory feature of the new Warrant is the provision for parents. We have always felt that. For my part I should have liked to do something a great deal more liberal. There is provision now to give pensions to parents up to 30s. a week. This new body will have to administer the regulations, and, of course, it is inconceivable that those new regulations will be less generous than the regulations now in operation, so that we may take it that in addition to the 15s. to which the parent is entitled under our Warrant, the new body will have power to supplement that up to 30s. a week where cause is shown.
It may be more than 15s.
Whatever they are entitled to under the Warrant may be supplemented up to 30s. This special new Grants Committee will also have power to make pensions in cases, of which there are still many, which are not within the four corners of the Regulations, and they have power to take circumstances into consideration more than we can in a State Department. Then those who cannot get anything under the warrant and cannot get anything under the Special Grants Committee will still have a source to go to, if they think proper, in the voluntary fund—that is to say, the Royal Patriotic Fund, to which will be turned over all the voluntary money at present in the coffers of the Statutory Committee. It does not amount to a great deal, but in time it may amount to a great deal more. I think that at present it amounts to between £12,000 and £13,000. That would be handed over to the Royal Patriotic Fund, and of course it is no concern of this House or of the Special Grants Committee or of anybody else what is done with that money, and we may assume, in giving up that, that very hard cases that cannot be met by the Ministry of Pensions or the Special Grants Committee will still be met by the Royal Patriotic Fund out of the moneys transferred to them or further money that may be subscribed. But over and above all that there still remains the question of the proper treatment and training of disabled men, which is most important. That is being retained entirely by the Pensions Department. As I said before, whatever may be done with regard to pensions, the vital thing is not to pay pensions but to rebuild the men broken in the War.
Now about the money. Under the Bill as introduced a week or two ago we modestly asked for £250,000 to be retained of the £1,000,000 granted to the Statutory Committee a while ago. We increased that amount to £500,000 in response to what has been said in the House by hon. Members who said that one-fourth of the money which the Treasury had seen fit to grant to the Statutory Committee was not sufficient and that we ought to retain more. In consequence we propose now to retain £500,000. The hon. Member for Liverpool has an Amendment down that we should retain the lot. Let me say that in proposing to retain the half the Treasury has told us that we are retaining far too much and that the conditions are so different from what they were when the Treasury granted the £1,000,000 that we have no need to retain as much as £500,000. I think that it is a reasonable compromise. The conditions are now such that not so much is needed in the way of supplementation. Our Grant covers a great many more cases than the warrants in operation a year ago when the Treasury granted £1,000,000 to the Statutory Committee. In fact I make bold to say that probably not more than one-half, if as many as one-half, will have occasion now to apply for any further Grants at all, and that we are not likely to want more than the £500,000. After all, if you set up your Special Grants Committee armed with certain powers to make Grants and make decisions, that body as a statutory body will be subject to Parliamentary control year by year. You will say next year that they have spent too much or too little, and whatever money is wanted that money will have to be forthcoming to fulfil the purpose for which Parliament sanctioned the Grant. Therefore I would appeal to the hon. Member for Liverpool to agree that it is not a very urgent matter whether you have £500,000 or £1,000,000. Let us go on spending the £500,000, and if you find when that is spent that more ought to be spent, then you can get more from the same source.
Amendment agreed to.
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 2 ( Transfer of Certain Powers to the Corporation ) and Clause 3 ( Advisory Committees to Minister of Pensions ).
Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.
CLAUSE 4.—(Transfer of Staff and Funds.)
(1) As from the appointed day there shall be transferred and attached to the Ministry of Pensions the persons employed under the Statutory Committee in or about the execution of the functions of the Statutory Committee under the principal Act, and the Minister may from time to time assign to the several persons so transferred, in such manner as he thinks right, any of the business of the Minister, whether or not such business relates to the functions transferred to the Minister under this Act, and those officers shall perform such duties in relation to such business as may be directed by the Minister:
Provided that such persons shall while they continue in office be in no worse position as respects their tenure of office, salary, and superannuation allowances than they would have been had this Act not been passed.
(2) Out of the funds belonging to the Statutory Committee derived from or representing money provided by Parliament, there shall be transferred to the corporation the sum of two hundred and fifty thousand pounds for the purpose of assisting the corporation in carrying out the functions transferred to the corporation under this Act, and the balance of such funds shall be paid into the Exchequer.
(3) All other property belonging to the Statutory Committee shall be transferred to the corporation, and shall be held and applied by them upon the trusts and for the purposes upon and for which it was held and applicable by the Statutory Committee.
Amendment made: In Sub-section (2), leave out the words "the corporation" ["corporation the"], and insert instead thereof the words "a special account to be opened for the purpose at the Bank of England to be called "the Ministry of Pensions (Special Grants) Account" (hereinafter referred to as "the special grants account").
6.0 P.M.
I beg to move, in Subsection (2), to leave out the words "two hundred and fifty" ["two hundred and fifty thousand pounds"] and to insert instead thereof the words "five hundred."
I must acknowledge with gratitude that the Minister of Pensions, and the hon. and gallant Gentleman who assists him, have certainly met the views of some of us by increasing the amount which ought to be retained for the purposes of the Special Committee from the sum of a quarter of a million to half a million. But I respectfully submit that at this time it is impossible for anyone to say how much money will be required for the purpose of this Special Committee. I quite agree with what the right hon. Gen- tleman has said that under the new Warrant many things are now dealt with by the Ministry of Pensions that were formerly dealt with by the Statutory Committee; and I admit that the Patriotic Fund will afford a further contribution to the fund of something like £12,000 or £13,000, which may or may not be added to from other sources. When, however, the right hon. Gentleman suggests—the Treasury having given a million pounds to the Statutory Committee, and some of us having come forward and ask that the whole of that million should be retained for the purposes of this new Committee—when the right hon. Gentleman suggests that it is a reasonable compromise to split the amount, and for the Treasury to say, "we will give you half," I must with all respect differ from him, and say, on the other hand, that the reasonable and businesslike method to pursue is, at all events for the present, to retain the whole of that million pounds, or what is left of it, for the purpose of this Special Committee, which has not yet been called into being, and which has to perform certain functions which have not yet been settled. I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that after further Clauses and Amendments have been moved, it may be that the Special Committee will have to do certain things and not to do other things, and, before the Bill is passed, the powers of the Special Committee may be enlarged, and they may have greater spending powers than is contemplated at this moment.
I submit, therefore, that it would be extremely unwise to say at once that we limit the amount of money transferred from the Statutory Committee to the Special Committee to half a million. I would strongly urge the right hon. Gentleman, in spite of his fear of the trouble he may get into with the Treasury, to believe that he has behind him in this House a large body of Members who have great confidence in him, and who will support him in his demands, if he presses the Treasury to allow the new Special Committee to retain all the money which is at present in the hands of the Statutory Committee. The new Special Committee, as I pointed out, will have many functions to perform, some of them administrative, and some of them the actual granting of money. Looking upon what has happened since the War began, looking on all that may happen before the War is over, and having regard to the number of hard cases that will arise and will have to be dealt with within the four corners of the Royal Warrant—taking all these facts into consideration, I do humbly submit that it is wiser at this moment not to enter into any compromise with the Treasury—a reasonable compromise as the right hon. Gentleman suggested, but to retain the whole amount in order to do justice to our fighting men and their dependants—to retain, for these reasons, all the money which is in the hands of the Statutory Committee, and, if that is found to be more than enough, then it would be easy enough for Parliament to come forward and declare that the balance should be handed back to the Treasury at that point, but not now.
As a member of the Statutory Committee I desire to say a few words with regard to my own experience of these matters and as to the present compromise, which, I think, on the whole is a fair one. It must be remembered that the first duties of the Statutory Committee must be taken over by the newly-appointed Committee, were more or less, some of them, rather of a transitory than a perpetual character, and it seems to me that when the quarter of a million is increased to half a million the new Committee will find itself with adequate funds, at all events for the present. I never had myself, as a member of this Statutory Committee, any fear whatever with regard to our disbursements being curtailed for lack of money. I feel perfectly sure that with careful administration and supervision the funds will prove adequate, but, if not, Parliament will sooner or later meet any further requirements put forward. This new Committee will have a doubly strong position. First of all, it will consider the special cases, will act under the authority of the Ministry of Pensions, which should be a great guarantee of their action. If the Committee disbursed this money under the authority of the Ministry of Pensions, and with the confirmation and approval of the Ministry, and if they find that their requirements call for further money, it seems to me that they need have very little anxiety about getting all that they want, in view of the fact that they give the double guarantee of their own careful administration and the approval of the Ministry of Pensions. As a member of the Statutory Committee I can state that so far, at all events, that body has not been in the least hampered by the lack of money, and all my experience in this direction leads me to think that the proposal made by the right hon. Gentleman is on the whole a very fair one, and that the new Committee will not find itself hampered by being confined for the present to the sum of £500,000. If more were needed I am convinced that the House of Commons would sanction the proposal to grant what was required. I repeat that from my experience I consider that this proposal is a very fair one, and I hope the House will accept it, and that the proceedings of the new Committee will not be hampered in any way.
I should like the right hon. Gentleman to let us know what is the actual sum of money left in the hands of the Statutory Committee. I presume that some of the million has already been spent, and it would be just as well to tell us what is the actual amount now in hand. I should rather like to hear from the right hon. Gentleman on what basis the estimate of £250,000 was formed—whether it was was wanted, and, if that was so, I think founded on some sort of estimate of what we must all see that doubling it puts the new Committee into an extremely safe position. If that is so, I would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman not to ask for more money out of the State. In these days economy is in the minds of all of us, though not always in the voices of all of us, in the House. I think there is no use in seeking to get money out of the Treasury which is not actually wanted. This Bill does secure a fair estimate of what is wanted, and I think that the new Committee to be set up will have all the money it needs.
As another member of the Statutory Committee, I am afraid I cannot quite agree with the hon. Member who spoke on the other side of the House (Sir Henry Craik). I am inclined to think that the new Committee will require nearly all that is left of the million in the hands of the Statutory Committee. After all, it should be remembered that the £1,000,000 voted to the Statutory Committee was by no means all that it expected to expend on the duties it had to fulfil, and the estimate formed of the requirements of the (Statutory Committee was something like £6,000,000. The £1,000,000 only represented a very small proportion indeed of what they would require. In my view, there will be a very large number of hard cases with which this new Committee will have to deal. After all, in the administration of pensions the Government Departments must be bound very closely by the Regulations laid down. Officials in a Government Department do act very narrowly on the lines laid down for them, and, in view of that fact, I think undoubtedly there will be a considerable number of hard cases which will have to be dealt with by this Committee. Let me give one or two examples of what will arise. The Committee is aware that a great number of men have been discharged from the Army after receiving gratuities of anything from £5 up to £25. Being no longer fit, they were discharged from the Service, and when they got back to civil life they received gratuities. A considerable number of these men are quite unfit to go back to employment, and the fact is that their gratuities have been spent in a comparatively short time, very often in paying debts that have been incurred during the time they were in the Army or incurred during the time that they had been kept waiting before they obtained their gratuities. A number of these cases must ultimately come up again in considerable numbers, and they will have to be dealt with, I imagine, by the new Committee. I think the right hon. Gentleman would be well advised, and that hon. Members would be well advised in insisting on a larger sum being retained at the disposal of this new Committee than that contemplated at the present moment. It is all very well to say that it is easy to get money from the Treasury afterwards, but I am not sure about that. We know that there is coming a time in which it will be extremely difficult to obtain money from the Treasury, which will be looking very closely at matters after the War. There is some chance of obtaining the money now, and, in my opinion, the whole sum which is in the hands of the Statutory Committee should go to the new Committee.
I would point out that although the Statutory Committee had to comply with some Regulations, at the same time it has not been prevented from making Grants owing to lack of money.
My right hon. Friend cannot accept this suggested Amendment, and I really do not think when we come to look at it closely that it is reasonable to ask for it. What is the money wanted for? It is wanted for the supplementation of pensions and in order to grant pensions where none are granted now. The Statutory Committee had a million of money for this purpose, and I am informed that they have not spent any part of it. They merely used the interest, and in the course of the year, or rather more than a year, they have been enabled to do all that was necessary out of the interest on the million.
But how much has been done?
My hon. Friend says how much have they done. It may be that they have not done as much as they might, but in consequence of the new Warrant the scope of their doings has been very considerably reduced. The point is that they have not spent this capital sum, and have been able to do everything out of the interest. We are handing over the sum of half a million, with no restrictions as to the spending of the capital, to this special Grants Committee, and really that is quite enough and to spare for a considerable period. My hon. Friend opposite asked if any estimate had been made. We had an estimate handed to us when the Bill was originally introduced. It was suggested that £50,000 per year for five years would be amply sufficient for the work of the new Committee, and as the Bill was originally drafted we provided for a lump sum of £250,000. We have now gone much further and have taken double the amount, and we shall have, I think, quite sufficient, unless the War continues over a very prolonged period.
Can the hon. Gentleman assure us now that the training and treatment of disabled soldiers will be lifted entirely out of the Statutory Committee Fund and put upon the funds of the Ministry of Pensions? If he can assure us that that is so, of course not nearly so much money will be required.
That is so. If the Committee will look at the Bill they will see that the purposes for which this money is required are reduced very materially. There is only supplementation of pensions, which will be much less than it was owing to the terms of the new Warrant, and the giving of pensions where none could be granted under the Regulations, which will also be much less because the Regulations are much more liberal than they used to be. The provision of training, which is very expensive treatment, and the further treatment and training of men is taken over entirely by the Ministry of Pensions. With regard to one other thing, the supplementation of separation allowances, that did not come out of the million, and will not come out of the half-million, but will be provided out of the Vote of Credit. We are, therefore, advised that we are asking for sufficient money, or rather more than sufficient, and there is a very strong objection felt by everybody to taking out of the pockets of the public more money than is really needed at the time. I can assure the Committee once this new body is set up it has got to work under regulations agreed to by the Minister of Pensions. Their expenses will become practically expenses of the Ministry of Pensions, which come before the Treasury every year and are placed on our Vote, and if this half-million runs short we can see to it. I hope, therefore, the hon. Member will not press this proposal.
In view of the very satisfactory explanation which has been made by my hon. and gallant Friend I should like to withdraw.
The hon. Gentleman's proposal is not before the Committee. It was an alternative to the Government proposal.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendments made: In Subsection (2) leave out the words "for the purpose of assisting the corporation in carrying out the functions transferred to the corporation under this Act";
In Sub-section (3) after the word "the" ["the corporation"] insert the words "Royal Patriotic Fund."—[ Mr. Barnes. ]
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 5.—(Provisions as to the Corporation.)
In addition to the persons of whom the executive committee of the corporation is to consist under the First Schedule to the Patriotic Fund Reorganisation Act, 1903, there shall be appointed by his Majesty as members of the Committee four persons of whom one shall be a woman and two shall be representatives of labour.
Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.
CLAUSE 6.—(Short Title, Repeal, and Saving.)
(1) This Act may be cited as the Naval and Military War Pensions, etc. (Transfer of Powers) Act, 1917.
(2) The enactments mentioned in the Schedule to this Act are hereby repealed to the extent specified in the third column of that Schedule.
(3) Nothing in this Act shall affect any Schemes, Regulations, Orders, or Grants made by the Statutory Committee, but all such Schemes, Regulations, and Orders shall, until altered or revoked by the Minister of Pensions or by the corporation as the case may require, continue in force with this modification that references therein to the Statutory Committee shall be construed as references to the Minister of Pensions or the corporation as the case may require, and any grants made by the Statutory Committee shall continue to be payable.
Amendments made: In Sub-section (3) leave out the word "corporation" ["by the corporation"], and insert instead thereof the words "special grants committee, with the approval of the Minister of Pensions."
Leave out the word "corporation" ["or the corporation"], and insert instead the words "special grants committee."—[ Mr. Barnes. ]
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Constitution and Powers of Special Grants Committee.)
(1) The Minister of Pensions shall as soon as may be after the passing of this Act constitute for the purposes of this Act a Committee, which shall be known as the Special Grants Committee, and shall consist of such number of persons, not being more than ten, as the Minister shall determine.
(2) In appointing the members of the Committee the Minister of Pensions shall have regard to the desirability of including among their number persons who have acquired special knowledge as members of the Statutory Committee or of any Subcommittee thereof, or of a local committee.
(3) As from the appointed date there shall be transferred to the Special Grants Committee those functions of the Statutory Committee which are specified in paragraphs ( a ), ( b ), ( f ), ( g ), and ( h ) of Subsection (1) of Section three of the principal Act, and all questions which may arise with respect to the amount of any grant or allowance to be made under paragraphs ( c ), ( d ), ( e ), or ( k ) of the said Sub-section shall stand referred to and be determined by the Special Grants Committee.
(4) The Special Grants Committee may, subject to the approval of the Minister of Pensions, make Regulations with respect to their proceedings and the exercise of the functions transferred to them under this Act, and the power of the Committee to make Regulations under paragraph ( b ) of Sub-section (1) of Section three of the principal Act shall be exercised subject to the approval of the Minister.
(5) The Special Grants Committee shall render to the Minister of Pensions such information, advice, and assistance as he may require in connection with any matters arising under this Act.—[ Mr. Barnes. ]
Brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time." It deals with the constitution and powers of the Special Grants Committee which is set up to supplement our pensions under the Warrant. "We propose that this body shall be entirely free to supplement or otherwise as they think proper. We think it is wrong that we ourselves should be called upon to supplement our own pensions and we think it would be equally wrong that we should have any power of veto over the decisions of the body entrusted with that duty. Therefore, to all intents and purposes, this body will be independent as far as its decisions go. At the same time, it is part of the Pensions Committee in the sense that we set it up, and also part of the pensions machinery in this way, that we become the executive for it—that is to say, in order to avoid the need for a separate staff the Pensions Committee staff will carry out the decisions of this body without questioning them. The body will consist of ten, or a lesser number, and its powers are defined in Sub-section (3) of the new Clause. They will consist of giving supplemental pensions and pensions where we cannot give them and things of that sort under a Warrant and under Regulations which I hope will be made a great deal more elastic than the present Regulations, so as to meet the cases in a generous spirit, and meet them promptly, and in such a way that the local committees will have really a wide discretion.
I wish to mention a point which has occurred to me since I spoke to the Minister on the subject. Subsection (3) refers to paragraphs ( a ), ( b ), ( f ), ( g ), and ( h ). Those are taken from the Statutory Committee's Regulations, Part II., which have already been once revised. If you put them in the Bill in this specific form you may limit the work of the Special Grants Committee. In view of the fact that you want elasticity and that new Regulations may be required, is it right to do so?
Those headings merely refer to specific Subsections in the original Act. The Grants Committee will have power to make new Regulations.
You are right and I am wrong.
I think that the Pensions Minister is to be congratulated on having adopted this scheme for securing elasticity in those cases which are rather doubtful, and also engaging in that portion of the work the local committees. I think the local committees have a tendency to feel themselves rather bound up—and possibly it is quite necessary that it should be so—by the Regulations under which they work. If they find in those cases not covered by Regulations that there is this method of securing what the Minister has desired, namely, promptness and elasticity, that will lend a great deal more interest to the work of those local committees. I hope especially that the Minister will remain in the same state of mind in regard to promptness, because people concerned possibly have had their cases inquired into and have been turned down, and if after all that inquiry they find a swift method of getting consideration, I am sure it will remove a great deal of discontent and disappointment. I have very great pleasure in supporting the Clause.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause read a second time, and added to the Bill.
New Clause.—(Expenses and Accounts of Special Grants Committee.)
(1) The cost of any grants or allowances the amounts of which are under the provisions of this Act determined by the Special Grants Committee shall so far as not defrayed out of moneys provided by Parliament be defrayed out of the money standing to the credit of the special grants account.
(2) Payments out of and into the special grants accounts shall be made, and all other matters relating to the account and to the money standing to the credit of
SCHEDULE. Enactments Repealed. Session and Chapter. Short Title. Extent of Repeal. 5 and 6 Geo. 5, c. 83 The Naval and Military War Pensions, etc., Act, 1915 Section 1. Sub-section (6) of Section 2. Paragraph ( b ) of Sub-section (2) of Section 3, and Sub-sections (3), (4), (5), and (7) of the same Section.) of Sub-section (2) of Section 3, and Sub-sections (3), (4), (5), and (7) of the same Section. Sub-section (3) of Section 6. 6 and 7 Geo. 5, c. 4 The Naval and Military War Pensions, etc. (Expenses) Act, 1916 The whole Act, so far as unrepealed but subject as respects Section 2 to the proviso to Sub-section (3) of Section 10 of the Naval and Military War Pensions etc. (Administration Expenses) Act, 1917. 6 and 7 Geo. 5, c. 65 The Ministry of Pensions Act, 1916 Section 3. 7 and 8 Geo. 5, c. 14 The Naval and Military War Pensions, etc., (Administration Expenses) Act, 1917 Section 2 and Section 7.
Amendment made: Leave out the words "( b ) of Sub-section (2)," and insert instead thereof the words "( i ) of Sub-section (1)."—[ Mr. Barnes. ]
Title
"A Bill to provide for the dissolution of the Statutory Committee established under the Naval and Military War Pensions, etc., Act, 1915, and for the transfer of their powers, duties, and functions to the Minister of Pensions and the Royal Patriotic Fund Corporation, and for purposes connected therewith."
Amendment made: Leave out the words "and the Royal Patriotic Fund Corporation."—[ Mr. Barnes. ]
Bill reported; as amended, considered.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
the account, shall be regulated in such manner as the Treasury direct.
(3) At the end of every financial year, accounts of the payments into and the expenditure defrayed out of the special grants account shall be made up in such form and with such particulars as may be directed by the Treasury, and shall be audited by the Comptroller and Auditor-General as public accounts in accordance with such regulations as the Treasury may make, and shall be laid before Parliament with a report thereon.—[ Mr. Barnes. ]
Brought up, read the first and second time, and added to the Bill.
I think it ought to be said that those of us who have been in communication with the Ministry are very much obliged for the alterations made and the way in which they have met us, and we hope that this new scheme will succeed.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read the third time, and passed.
Local Government (Allotments and Land Cultivation—Ireland) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That the Bill be now read a second time."
This Bill is framed statutorily to establish facilities to enable local authorities in Ireland to provide allotments and otherwise to promote the cultivation of land. The facilities are already in operation. Hon. Members from Ireland know that during last winter, when the work of the committees was under consideration, many of them represented very strongly that something ought to be done to give effect to the wish to get small areas of land on which they could carry on cultivation by such means as could be made possible. The steps that were taken in the first instance were taken under the Defence of the Realm Act, and afterwards in co-operation with the Department of Agriculture and the Local Government Board. The result of bringing into existence a very large number of allotments was a very considerable set of schemes for the provision of allotments in the urban districts. It was thought necessary that, in addition to the compulsory powers, facilities should be given for the acquirement of land and for the avoidance of the expense that occurs under the compulsory arrangements, so that the whole thing might, through the local authorities, be practicable. These powers were put into operation with the assistance and co-operation of the Irish Executive, and in all but four cases land was allotted under the scheme without any further trouble. Satisfactory arrangements were made. There was in some cases, of course, the pressure of the fact that if there was not goodwill and agreement, there was compulsion at the back. Schemes were set up in order to carry on what had been projected; to make effective and to facilitate any necessary expansion of the system. Two things are required. It is desirable that the schemes put forward should be examined by the Local Government Board, in order to see that they are practicable; and, further, it is necessary that the facilities which have always been given in these cases for easy terms by districts in which these people are should continue. This Bill has for its object the carrying out of a useful little reform, and I think it provides effective means for doing this. I strongly hope that, following the result of the special arrangements made under the pressure of last winter for increasing tillage in Ireland, there will in the urban districts of Ireland be found coming into existence schemes for allotments in each district, where it is practicable to get the land, which will be of permanent benefit to those who live there.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time.
Resolved, "That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Committee on the Bill."—[ Mr. Duke. ]
Bill accordingly considered in Committee, and reported, without amendment; read the third time, and passed.
Public Health (Prevention and Treatment of Disease—Ireland) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
I should like to offer a very few words of explanation of this Bill, which, I think, will satisfy the House, and especially the hon. Members from Ireland, that it is in the public interest to pass it. I should not have been sure myself of the matter if the expert advisers had not convinced me that the Bill was necessary and dealt with a matter not already provided for, as I supposed, by the law. Those hon. Members who are familiar with local government in Ireland will know that in the Irish Local Government Act there is a provision whereby the Local Government Board in Ireland "may from time to time for the treatment of persons affected with epidemic or infectious diseases, and to prevent the spread of such disease, declare by what authority or authorities separate provisions shall be enforced," and so on. Believing that, in the natural simplicity of my mind I should have thought that that included the county councils in Ireland, having regard also to the fact that it is eminently desirable that powers dealing with the danger of infection or contagion by diseases which have a spreading character should be in the hands of the authorities dealing with districts—especially to make the measure comprehensive! I supposed there existed in the Public Health (Ireland) Act of 1878 such power. I find it does not exist. The sole object of this Bill is to provide the same facility as in England for dealing with any outbreak of dangerous or infectious disease which might arise in Ireland. When I point out that the consent of the county councils is a condition precedent to taking any action by the Local Government Board in Ireland, except in cases of emergency, I think it will be seen that this Bill is a useful Bill, and certainly a harmless Bill. I am satisfied on the advice of those who advise the Local Government Board, and who advise me in such matters, that it is desirable in the public interest that the Bill should be passed.
We are asked to give the county councils an extension of their powers in the matter of the prevention of contagious disease; that these should be administered in the areas through more important bodies than the bodies that are now entrusted with the administration of the Act. I presume it means that the county councils would see to the notification of infectious diseases?
Yes.
And of the various other Acts? Does this Bill enable the county councils to deal with vaccination?
No.
It does not! I think it ought to. If it is going to deal with any contagious diseases it ought surely to deal with the most contagious of all—that is, small-pox. The only point I wish to make is this: I am not sure the county councils have asked for this Bill. On general principles I would be in favour of extending the power of county councils everywhere they could be extended, but I am not sure that the county councils have made any particular demand for this. I do not know whether this Act will entail any responsibility on the county councils for not putting certain Acts into operation. I can imagine that a county council will not like to have to enforce, say, unpopular sanitary Acts, or to compel the people to do certain things under these Acts. I am not quite clear how the county councils will stand after this Act is passed. Broadly, I think we ought to be given the same powers in Ireland as in England. There is no reason why if this Bill includes cholera it should not apply to small-pox. Clause 1 of the Bill says:
"With a view to the treatment of persons affected with cholera or any other epidemic, endemic or infectious disease."
Surely that covers small-pox?
I think not.
In view of the situation that has arisen I think we ought to take powers in this Bill to extend the provisions of the English Vaccination Acts Ireland ought not to stand in a worse position than England. If this were done I do not see that my colleagues or I need take any serious objection to the Bill.
I do not think the Chief Secretary made any mention of having consulted the representatives of the county councils of Ireland. I do not think a Bill of this character ought to be passed by this House without ascertaining the views of the county councils. I am not entirely clear as to the full scope and effect of this measure. As I understand, under the law at present the Local Government Board has power to call upon boards of guardians, who, I think, are the sanitary authorities, to put into force the provisions of the law as regards infectious diseases. Those powers are sometimes rather stringent and also of an expensive character. I do not think the Chief Secretary ought, at the instance of the Local Government Board alone, to embark on a Bill which proposes to alter the whole machinery for enforcing these particular laws in Ireland. I do not take any part in county council work, and therefore I am not quite sure that the county councils of Ireland have the requisite offices for this work. Boards of guardians have the sanitary officers and have been in the habit of exercising these various powers, but have the county councils got the requisite officers, offices, and machinery for exercising these powers? In the first Clause the Chief Secretary drew our attention to the fact of the proviso—
"Provided that except in the case of emergency the Board shall not require the council of a county to execute and enforce any such Regulations without the consent of the council."
Yes, but these cases are always cases of emergency, naturally, in every single instance! The Local Government Board does not intervene, as contemplated by this Act, unless it is a case of emergency, and in cases of outbreak of fever in the West of Ireland. This would apply also to cases of cerebro-spinal meningitis, a disease which has turned up once or twice recently in Ireland, and where the most stringent and instant action is required. I think, before this Bill is considered at all, we ought to know, first of all, whether the present sanitary authorities are consenting parties to this Bill, and, secondly, whether the county councils have been consulted, and whether, in their opinion, they are in possession of machinery adequate to the exercise of these powers, because it is no good for the Local Government Board to go to the county councils and say that they must deal with an outbreak, say, of spotted fever, ordinary fever, or smallpox, if the county council has not got the officers accustomed to deal with those diseases. It might leave the county council in the air, unable to carry out these instructions. Will not this Bill give power to the Local Government Board to say to the county councils that they must deal with these matters, and if they do not penalties will be incurred? According to Sub-section (2) of Clause 1—
"Any expenses incurred by the council of a county in the execution or enforcement of such Regulations shall be raised as a county at large charge."
That evidently contemplates an addition to the county rate, and I do strongly represent to the right hon. Gentleman that he ought not to go forward with a Bill which contemplates any addition to the rates of the county by compulsion without consulting representatives of the county councils of Ireland, who have a body entitled to speak for them. For that reason, while I do not propose to oppose the Second Beading of the Bill, I should certainly strongly object to all the stages being taken to-day. I have no objection to the Second Reading on the understanding that the right hon. Gentleman will meet the points we have now raised, either privately or by some means of communication let us know what are the views of the county councils, and whether the sanitary authorities have been consulted. Until there has been time to consult these authorities, I really must protest against the Bill going through all its stages.
In addition to what my hon. Friend has said, I would like to point out to the right hon. Gentleman that as the Bill stands it seems to me that if the Local Government Board in case of emergency compel the county council to put these powers into operation, then under Sub-section (2) of Clause (1) the expenses would be incurred by the county council under the direction of the Local Government Board, and ipso facto the expenses would be put upon the county. It seems only reasonable that if the Local Government Board in case of emergency has to intervene, it ought not to put upon the county council the obligations to collect charges as to which it has not been consulted. As I gather from this Bill, the Local Government Board in case of emergency can come along and say, "You shall do this," but the county council is not to be consulted as to the levying of charges. Its permission will not be asked, but immediately the charges will be levied upon the county council. This is certainly a matter which will have to be further considered by us in Committee, and, as my hon. Friend the Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) has pointed out, we at the present moment have no knowledge whether the county councils in Ireland are in favour of this measure as a whole, I hope, therefore, the right hon. Gentleman will agree to the suggestion to take the Second Reading and not to press any further stage to-night.
I have every reason to suppose from the speeches that have been made that the provisions of this Bill are generally regarded as advantageous. I do not intend, after what has been said, to ask that any other stage than the Second Reading should be taken to-night.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—[ Colonel Craig. ]
Titles Deprivation Bill [Lords.]
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
I hope someone on the part of the Government will explain this Bill. It is not usual for a Bill at this stage not to be explained by the Government.
I shall be very glad to explain it.
I do not wish to lose my chance of speaking. I think my right hon. Friend should explain this Bill for a reason perfectly well known, and better known to him than to me, that such a Bill has never been introduced, nor anything like it, in the whole history of Parliament. There is no precedent for a Bill of this kind. I do not in the slightest degree object to it, but the ordinary way in which a peer would be deprived of his peerage would be either by Act of Attainder or by process of outlawry when a peer is an alien enemy, or even when a peer is not perhaps an alien enemy, as some of these gentlemen are not—they are traitors. The old process of outlawry, which is still in existence, could be resorted to, but I am not going into these mere details now. I want, in reference to this measure, to say how very hard and difficult it is to impress the Government with a sense of what should be their primary duty. When this War began on the 4th August, 1914, it is not an exaggeration to say that anyone who looked into Burke's Peerage and saw the list of German royalties and semi-royalties having English titles, would have, by the mere recital of them over and over again, got some inkling of the position. So far back as November, 1914, I asked whether two gentlemen who are really the persons aimed at by this Bill—there is no mistake about it—the Duke of Cumberland and the Duke of Albany, were still to retain their titles. I was pooh-poohed by the late Prime Minister. It was not a matter worth thinking about; it was a mere trifling thing. Could it not be settled at the end of the War? As I happened to have relatives and friends fighting in the War I thought it a most disgraceful and disreputable thing that the dignities of this land should be held by German traitors, but I was always met by a sense of superior criticism, as if it were too small a thing to talk about. Why was it not done? What was the secret influence behind it? Why did it take three Governments before this right and proper thing was done? I drafted a Bill, and asked the Government to let me introduce it—an ordinary Bill of three or four lines. Of course I was not allowed to introduce it—I was gagged.
7.0 P.M.
At length, after a period extending from the 16th November, 1914, to the 27th July, 1916, the Government yielded and promised to do the right and proper thing. Why has it taken them nearly two years to eliminate traitors who belong to the Royal family, when humbler persons are pursued under the Defence of the Realm Act? The late Prime Minister on the 27th July last year promised that legislation would be introduced, but there was not a sign of legislation in this House. At last there was an intimation on 22nd November last year that it was to be introduced in the House of Lords. Not a sign was given in another place until 13th March, and then there was a long period until 20th June, and now on the 17th July a Second Reading is moved of a Bill which should have struck everyone as an act of great justice and right to the men who are fighting and to the men who have died. On this 17th July, at length, as a great concession, two men are to be removed from the peerage. The Duke of Cumberland was, at all events, removed from the Garter in July, 1915, and the Duke of Albany was also removed from the Garter, but they were not relieved of their peerages. Those were carefully conserved. Who is the Duke of Cumberland? He is the gentleman who, after the Jutland battle, congratulated the German Emperor on the glorious victory he had attained. That was on the 31st May last year, and he is still his royal highness, a prince of the United Kingdom, and a peer of Ireland. His father before him was a Knight of the Garter, and a general in the British Army. His grandfather before him was also a Knight of the Garter and a Member of the House of Lords, a man having an immense fortune in Hanover. It is in reference to this peculiarly favoured person who has been insulting this country for three years, that I have been trying to call attention to this scandal. There is the case of the Duke of Albany. The first time I heard of him was on the playing fields of Eton, with our English boys, and now he is in arms against us as our enemy. It was said that these men were not traitors, and that they were only the unfortunate creatures of accident; that they had to fight contrary to their own views. I heard that kind of language, and I recollect how it was argued that they were not traitors, but naturalised subjects of the Crown. The Act of 1870, whereby the cardinal principle of jurisprudence was abrogated, provided that no one can divest himself of his nationality. That law was made not for princes, but in the interests of Irish peasants who had become citizens of America, and it provided that those who had become naturalised citizens of America should not be tried for high treason under British rule. I am delighted that this appalling scandal has now ceased. I am delighted that in this House I have been given the credit of calling public attention to this great scandal, and I think we have now laid it down that henceforth and for ever German influence in this country will be a thing of the past, that our nobility will not be so honeycombed with Germans as to persuade us to give a great fortress like Heligoland as a present to the German Emperor. I think we have succeeded in laying down that there shall be no longer a privileged caste. We must bring home to the lowest, as well as to the greatest that we are in earnest in this War, and that we shall no longer allow traitorous puppets to hold the higher places in this country, and it reflects very great discredit on the Government for not having removed this great scandal a very long time ago.
I did not rise earlier to explain this Bill, because I thought no one in this House, and least of all the hon. Member for Donegal (Mr. Swift MacNeill) would fail to understand the proposals we are making. I have a vivid recollection of a promise given by the hon. and learned Member for Donegal himself that this Bill, if introduced, would pass through the House in not more than three minutes.
If I said that it was in a Pickwickian sense. I said it could be done in a Bill the length of one's little finger, and that if I introduced such a Bill it could be passed in three minutes. I was not referring to the right hon. Gentleman's Bill.
I do not in the least complain that the period which the hon. and learned Member allotted to the whole proceedings in this Bill has been exceeded, for that is no doubt to the satisfaction of all of us. I do not think that the hon. and learned Gentleman has really any quarrel with this Government. It is quite true that to a great extent the introduction of this Bill is due to the persuasion, and, if I may say so, the very laudable pertinacity of my hon. and learned Friend himself, who received full credit in another place for this Bill. I say quite frankly that the House owes him thanks for his insistence and persuasiveness, which have caused this matter to be dealt with. We are redeeming a promise given by the late Government. As soon as the present Government was formed the Chancellor of the Exchequer said he intended to redeem that promise, and it is for this purpose that we are introducing the Bill.
I do not take the view that the persons dealt with under this Bill ought in any legal sense to be called traitors. They are subjects or sovereigns of a foreign country, and I feel certain that it would not be correct to refer to them as traitors because they could not in any Court of the land be accused of that very serious crime. Nor is this Bill necessary to prevent some of them sitting in the other House of Parliament, because there is a provision in the Act of Settlement under which no person born abroad and not naturalised can sit in either House of Parliament, and therefore it would be impossible for the Duke of Cumberland to sit in the other House or to receive a writ of summons to sit there. But we all feel that it is a great anomaly that persons who are fighting against us, or are adhering to our enemies in this War, should hold British titles during and after the War. It is to put an end to that state of things, which has been called a scandal, that this Bill has been introduced. The framing of the Bill has not been quarrelled with. It is very simple. These persons can be dealt with by a Committee of the other House, who will inquire into the facts and report the names of peers or British princes who either have borne arms against His Majesty or his allies or have adhered to His Majesty's enemies, and that Report is to be made to Parliament. The effect will be that unless objection is taken within the period allowed, these persons are struck out of the Peerage Roll if they are peers and deprived of their right to sit in the House of Lords or take part in the election of peers. As the hon. and learned Member for Donegal appears to be satisfied with the terms of the Bill, I hope the House will be good enough to allow it to pass through all its stages to-day.
I am sure we all approve of this Bill. I do, although from different reasons to those given by the hon. Member for Donegal. I approve of it because to me, rightly or wrongly, it represents a great new democratic principle that at last the rights and wishes of the people are recognised in connection with matters which undoubtedly belong to the Royal prerogative. It is the Royal prerogative to give and take away titles, and everything to do with titles is a matter of the Royal prerogative, and we have no more to do with Royal titles than the German Kaiser or the President of the French Republic. At last, and greatly to the credit of the august occupant of our Throne, and greatly to the democratic credit of the House here, we have a Bill introduced by this Government which says that Parliament has some right to interfere in the matter of the Royal prerogative. As a democrat I welcome that principle, and I do not think it ought to be ignored.
At the same time may I indicate one or two directions in which I think this Bill is not at all satisfactory? It does not at all follow from this Bill that the Duke of Cumberland and the Duke of Albany are to lose their titles. This Bill provides that His Majesty may appoint a Committee, and it does not say that His Majesty shall appoint a Committee. In the speech of the Home Secretary I listened in vain for any promise, any august promise, that action would be taken under this Bill. I hope we shall be told that action will be taken. This Bill does not take away any title, and it does not say that any man shall have his title taken away. It only offers to the Throne one means of taking away a title which might have been taken away by other means. I congratulate my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Donegal upon this Bill being introduced, but I hope he will recognise that there are some points which in Committee might be considered in order to make this Bill stronger and better. I hope the remarks which I have made will not be taken as indicating that I in any way disapprove of this Bill. I think this measure marks a very great constitutional advance in the democratic sentiments surrounding our Throne and Constitution, and as such, more than for any other reason, I heartily welcome it.
I propose to say a few words on this Bill. I have come unprepared, partly for the reason that until the Bill was actually introduced in this House I could hardly persuade myself that the Government were serious, so that I have been taken by surprise. Viewing the whole circumstances, the extraordinary character of the whole proceedings seems to me to consist in the fact that such a Bill should have been necessary, and that nearly three years after the outbreak of the War the House of Commons, as representative of the people, should be discussing the question as to whether certain men fighting in the ranks of the enemy of this country should be permitted to hold seats in the House of Lords, to occupy positions higher in privilege, higher in power, higher in the respect of the country than were ever attained by the greatest men of science, by the greatest poets, or by the greatest leaders of thought. John Milton, Herbert Spencer, Charles Darwin, John Keats, Faraday, were never in the House of Lords. These men, who are amongst the glories of England, are less in the eyes of the public and of this House and of the House of Lords than these men who have no merit, no service, no character, and no record of anything great, who have nothing to recommend them but their relationship. I need say little more; it seems time to draw up the ladder. Yet I have hope in this respect, that this atmosphere which has surrounded these men, and which alone has made their greatness, is an atmosphere of superstition, and once that atmosphere has been pierced, once that superstition has vanished, then the whole case has been won, and we march on the path of progress and civilisation.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Committee on the Bill."
I must protest. I have several Amendments that I want to bring forward, and I have not written them in duplicate, because I thought that I should have an opportunity of handing them in. The Bill took a very long time in another place. They were allowed a special Committee, and they had at least two days to discuss it. I really think it is an insult to this House that we should be asked to get through all its stages at one Sitting.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be committed to a Committee of the Whole House."
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—[ Colonel Craig. ]
Naval Discipline Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
In March, 1915, in the course of the Bill amending the Naval Discipline Act of 1866, we introduced a Clause enabling us to suspend the operation of sentences of penal servitude or imprisonment or detention, and we did that, as I stated to the House on the Second Reading of that Bill, in order that in a proper case a man might have the chance of redeeming his character by subsequent good conduct and in order, if such cases arose, though I am happy to say that I am sure it is scarcely likely, to enable the awarding officer to deal effectively with a man who might have committed an offence for the deliberate purpose of securing detention or imprisonment so as to escape a dangerous or distasteful duty, by being put into a place of safety. I should tell the House that we adopted the Clause we now propose to amend, Section 74 A of the Naval Discipline Act in imitation of the War Office authority which was set forth in the Army (Suspension of Sentences) Act, 1915. That was an Act, as the House may remember, to authorise the suspension of sentences of penal servitude and imprisonment passed on soldiers engaged in active service beyond the seas during the present War. This new Section 74A of the Naval Discipline Act, which we now propose to amend, has been in existence for some two years and has been used in a small number of cases, but it has already become apparent to us that it suffers from various defects. We therefore propose in this Bill to remedy them, as the result of experience gained during the two years of working of this Section.
The Amendments, which form the whole body of this Bill, are devised to enable us to make a fuller use of the Section and to experiment, we hope, on a larger scale than is possible under the terms of the existing Section 74A. These are the defects which we seek to remove. The Section, as it stands, admits of the suspension of sentences only before the offender is committed. It is not possible at present to let an offender serve a portion of his sentence and then suspend the residue conditionally on his good behaviour. Under the Army (Suspension of Sentences) Act either course may be followed. That Act received the Royal Assent on the same day as the Amendment of the Naval Discipline Act, 1866, introducing Section 74 A, and it is a pity, no doubt, that we did not at that time adopt the precise form of the Army (Suspension of Sentences) Act, 1915, which would have enabled us to suspend, in a proper case, either before or after committal. We propose to remedy that defect now. That is the first Amendment to be found in the first paragraph of Clause 1, Sub-section (4). The next defect, which experience shows it is necessary to correct, is. this. If members will look at the original Section 74 A, they will find that the powers which that Section gives were to be carried out by the Admiralty or the committing authority. Practical difficulties limiting the utility of the Section have arisen by the restriction of the powers to the Admiralty or the committing authority. The committing authority may be the Commander-in-Chief, or the officer who ordered the court-martial, or, if sentence were awarded by the commanding officer of a ship, such commanding officer. There are only a limited number of Commanders-in-Chief, and there may not be one on the station. The officer who ordered the court-martial will no doubt generally be available, but subsequently he may have left the station and not be in a position to exercise his other powers under the Section. The same difficulty may arise in connection with a sentence awarded summarily. The Commanding Officer who awarded a sentence may be hundreds of miles away when the time comes for him to reconsider the case. We therefore propose to amend this and to confer the powers of Section 74 ( a ) not only upon the Admiralty or the committing authority, but also alternatively on an officer holding such command as the Admiralty may, by Regulation, prescribe. This Amendment will be found in Clause 1, Sub-section (1), again in Sub-section (2), and again in Sub-section (4).
How far down the hierarchy of rank do you intend to go?
Inasmuch as we are extending this power not only to suspension, but also to recommittal, it is a fair question to ask how far we intend to go and what persons are to be invested with this power. The Regulations which we shall make propose to confer the power upon the commanding officer of a ship or naval establishment, and we shall go no lower than that. The next defect has reference to Sub-section ( b ) of the original Section 74 ( a ). That Sub-section directs that the case may at any time, and shall at intervals of not less than three months, be reconsidered by the Admiralty or the committing authority, and so on. The real intention would have been accurately expressed by the use of the word "more" instead of "less. "The real intention would have been expressed if the Subsection had read, "The case may at any time and shall at intervals of not more than three months be reconsidered," and so on. Curiously enough, precisely the same literal confusion found a place in the Army (Suspension of Sentences) Act, 1915. The Army Council has since corrected the matter in the Army (Suspension of Sentences) Amendment Act, 1916, and we propose to follow their example and make the correction in this Bill. We next propose to amend Sub-section ( c ) of the original Section 74 A by the insertion of the words, "Subject to Regulations made by the Admiralty." We desire that those words should be inserted in order that the Admiralty may state the maximum limits to the time a sentence may be kept in a state of suspension. There is only one other Amendment, and that is to be found in the second paragraph of Clause 1, Subsection (4) of this Bill.
I may explain that under Section 53 of the Naval Discipline Act, 1866, certain punishments involve certain consequential penalties. Penal servitude involves dismissal with disgrace, which itself involves forfeiture of all pay, prize money, etc., earned by the offender. Imprisonment and detention both involve disrating in the case of a petty officer and reduction to the ranks in the case of a non-commissioned officer of Marines, and also stoppage of pay during the term of imprisonment or detention. By the King's Regulations, imprisonment and detention have other consequential penalties attached to them, namely, forfeiture of good conduct medals and good conduct badges, loss of time, and an inferior character at the end of the year. All of these may have an adverse effect as regards good conduct medals and pension. The second paragraph of Sub-section (4) of Clause 1 of the Bill makes it quite clear that when a sentence is suspended in whole or in part these consequential penalties may or may not be enforced as may be considered just and expedient in each individual case. I have now covered the whole of the Amendments of the original Section 74 A. It only remains for me to deal with the second Clause, which is known as the Printing Clause. This is introduced, as I have explained previously, for the purposes of expedition and convenience of reference. It enables us to reprint the original Naval Discipline Act, 1866, a copy of which I have in my hand, with all the amending Acts in consolidated form, and thus treat the original and revised documents as a single Act. It is not necessary to enlarge upon the enormous advantage involved in this procedure, which is in accordance with precedent both as regards the Army Act and the Naval Discipline Act. I have taken care to describe the purpose of this little measure in precise detail. In a word, it seeks to widen the potentiality of a reform with which everybody agrees. The matter is so plain, so desirable, and so simple that I commend it to the House with every confidence
The hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. S. MacNeill) who spoke on the last Bill gave a promise that it would go through in three minutes. On one occasion I made a forecast that if ever the Admiralty were to come to this House with a Bill asking for power to amend the Naval Discipline Act, it would go through in half an hour. I believe that is the case. The House is always generous to the Admiralty. There were one or two considerations which made me look at this Bill at first in a rather aggressive and critical spirit. The first was that the Admiralty had nibbled at the Naval Discipline Act for the third or fourth time during the War. I quite admit that they have gained knowledge by experience, but I put the consideration before my right hon. Friend that at some time or other after this War, seeing that the Naval Discipline Act was passed in 1866 without any discussion in either House, we should have some sort of Royal Commission to inquire into the whole working of that Act and what changes are desirable. Then the Admiralty could come to the House for powers in connection with the recommendations of that Royal Commission. I also felt in looking at the Bill that no man could understand it by reading it as it stands. One has to go to the Library to get a copy of the Naval Discipline Act. He cannot get it at the Vote Office. When I put that view before my right hon. Friend he very kindly and considerately sent me a copy of the Naval Discipline Act as it stands to-day, and with that and the Bill one is able to piece the thing together. Having said those few words of criticism and having studied the Bill, I must say I think the changes are very desirable indeed. They are all in the direction of decentralisation, saving of time, saving of paper work, and, what is still more desirable from the point of view of the Navy and the general public, they enable punishment to be lightened and not to be stiffened up. I believe the Bill will lead to a considerable mitigation of punishment and increase the chances of men to retrieve their character in the long service they render in the Navy.
I am very glad to hear that the Naval Discipline Act is to be reprinted. I hope it will be reprinted in the same cheap and handy form as the Army Act. I hope it will be accessible to Members. Members can always obtain free in the Library the Army Act, which is very useful, and enables them to answer questions put by their constituents. I hope similar facilities will be put at our disposal with regard to the Naval Discipline Act.
The Naval Discipline Act, 1866, is one document which I hold in my hand. It is printed with all the Amendments down to date and is in the Library in the Statute Book.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—[ Mr. James Parker. ]
Public Works Loans Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
In asking the House to give a Second Reading to this Bill, which hon. Members know is an annual, it might be of interest to remind them of the fact that it empowers the National Debt Commissioners to issue sums up to a maximum for the purpose of public works in Great Britain and Ireland. In the year preceding the War those maxima were fixed at £6,000,000 for Great Britain and £600,000 for Ireland. Those amounts were reduced last year to £1,500,000 for Great Britain and £200,000 for Ireland. This year we are making a still further reduction, and have fixed the maxima at £1,000,000 for Great Britain and £300,000 for Ireland. The reason why there is a slight increase in the amount allotted to Ireland is in order to make some provision for any loans that may be necessary in connection with rehousing and rebuilding in Dublin. I do not know that there is anything else I need say about the Bill. If any points in the Clauses are of interest to hon. Members they may be debated when the Bill is in Committee. I should not, however, like to let this opportunity of saying one or two Words go by without reminding the House that the Public Works Loans Board has been in existence for one hundred years this March. It has been managed during that time by gentlemen of standing connected with the City of London, who have given their services free for this object. During the century that the Board has been at work, they have been responsible for lending no less than £144,000,000 of public money for the purposes of public works. When we take from that the sums that were advanced in connection with the Irish famine and which were written off by the consent of this House, under the acknowledgment of the then Chancellor of the Exchequer thirty years ago that such loans were made at the time they were made more as gifts than as loans, and when we recollect that a small sum was advanced by this House by command, so that the Board had no choice in that matter, and that amount had subsequently to be written off, we recognise how admirable the management must have been, seeing that the losses that have occurred amount to just under £500,000, or between ¼ and ½ of 1 per cent. of the total sums that have been lent. That is a remarkable tribute to the diligence and sagacity of those gentlemen who have controlled the management of this Board. I am quite sure the House would be only too glad that I should pay them in public this tribute, which they so much deserve.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—[ Mr. Baldwin. ]
Public Works Loans (Remission of Debt)
Resolved, That this House will tomorrow resolve itself into a Committee to consider of authorising the remission of certain debts in pursuance of any Act of the present Session relating to Local Loans—[ King's Recommendation Signified ].—[ Sir G. Cave. ]
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-one minutes before Bight o'clock.