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Commons Chamber

Volume 96: debated on Thursday 19 July 1917

House of Commons

Thursday, July 19, 1917

Private Business

Ashton-under-Lyne Corporation Bill [ Lords ],

North Cheshire Water Bill [ Lords ],

Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.

Colonial Bank Bill [ Lords ],

As amended, considered; to be read the third time.

MILITARY SERVICE (AGREEMENT WITH RUSSIA) (MISCELLANEOUS, No. 11, 1917)

Copy presented of an Agreement concluded between His Majesty's Government and the Provisional Government of Russia relative to the reciprocal liability to Military Service of British subjects resident in Russia and Russian subjects resident in Great Britain [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Corn Production Bill

Copy ordered, "of Parts III. and IV. of the Corn Production Bill, showing the effect of the Amendments proposed to be moved in Committee on behalf of the Government."—[ Mr. Prothero. ]

Copy presented accordingly; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 112.]

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Petrol Supply (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the same facilities will be granted for the supply of petrol to visitors to Ireland during the summer holidays as are allowed to those owning or using cars attending race-meetings or engaged in political work at by-elections?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. No special facilities for the supply of petrol can be granted in the cases mentioned by the hon. and gallant Gentleman.

Is the supply of petrol allotted from London to Ireland as a whole and not to individuals in Ireland?

Does Ireland get the same proportion of petrol as any other portion of the United Kingdom or is the consumer there in any way favoured?

The individual consumer in Ireland gets the same proportion as the individual consumer elsewhere.

German Barber (Dublin)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that a registered alien of German nationality is allowed to be employed as a barber at the Great Brunswick Street (Dublin) Police Station; and, if so, will he have this man's services dispensed with?

The Government does not interfere with the choice of a barber by the men of the Dublin Metropolitan Police, and I am informed that some of the constables occasionally employ the man in question to cut their hair. As he is registered under the Aliens Restriction Act, and permitted to continue his residence in Dublin, I do not propose to interfere.

Is it a wise thing to have a man of German nationality in contact with policemen in Dublin?

Old Age Pensions

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he can state the names of the members of the Local Government Board for Ireland who decide appeals under the Old Age Pensions Acts; and whether he can state the general, special, and private instructions given to the old age pension officers respecting the manner in which they are to inquire into and decide on applications for old age pensions?

The practice is that which has been in use since the Act establishing old age pensions was passed. The members of the Local Government Board who from time to time decide appeals are the President, the Vice-President, and Mr. Edmund Bourke, and such other persons as may be deputed to act on behalf of the Vice-President under Section 102 of the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 189S. The instructions to pensions officers and committees contained in the Old Age Pensions Regulations, 1911, are issued as a Stationery Office publication.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is the practice of the Local Government Board to overrule the decisions of the local pensions committee and also of their own pensions officer? Can nothing be done to prevent this, especially overruling their own pensions officer, who has local information which they have not?

If there is an appeal allowed by Statute it is very likely to result sometimes in overruling the decision in the first instance.

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he can state the grounds on which Mrs. Sheehan, of Ballaghbee, Garnish, Castletown Bere, is allowed only 3s. old age pension instead of 7s. 6d. a week, to which she is entitled; whether he is aware that this woman is very poor and occupies a cabin the roof of which affords no protection against wet and inclement weather; and whether he will take all necessary steps to grant her the pension to which she is entitled, namely, 7s. 6d. a week?

This case does not appear to have been before the Local Government Board since 1st October, 1913, when they decided after local investigation by one of their inspectors that the claimant was entitled upon her means to a pension of 3s. a week.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Government will now grant the extra 2s. 6d. being allowed to old age pensioners shall not be affected by any increase in superannuation benefit given temporarily by a society to meet the increased cost of living?

A statement is now being prepared, and when completed will be circulated, showing clearly and in detail the conditions under which the additional 2s. 6d. will be granted. Perhaps the hon. Member will be good enough to await this statement.

Would the right hon. Gentleman consider the extension of this privilege to other pensioners in receipt of small sums from the Government. Take, for instance, dockyard pensioners receiving 10s. to 20s.?

asked the Secretary to the Treasury if he will explain why, in the case of a number of old age pensioners in Ireland who for some years have been in receipt of 5s. per week, the additional sum of 2s. 6d. is not being paid to them?

The reason why an old age pensioner who is in receipt of a 5s. old age pension has not been granted the additional allowance is either that no application has been made for it, or that, having been made, it has been refused either by the Pension Committee or by the Local Government Board on appeal. Under the revised scheme a very large number of pensioners who were not eligible for an allowance will now receive the 2s. 6d.

:Do I understand that all old age pensioners will now auto- matically receive the 2s. 6d? Is it necessary for them to go anywhere or to make any special application for this addition?

I would ask the hon. Gentleman to be good enough to wait until the White Paper that we are now preparing on the subject is issued.

In view of the dissatisfaction which exists on account of the denial by the pensions officers of the additional 2s. 6d. which had been promised, can the hon. Gentleman say when this White Paper will be issued?

Will Army men who, under the old regime received 1s. 1d. per day, be now eligible for this grant of 2s. 6d.?

May I ask the hon. Gentleman—I do not want to press him unduly—if the Government have decided—it has been declared by the Chancellor of the Exchequer—to give 2s. 6d. per week additional to old age pensioners, why is the payment of the 2s. 6d. postponed until the White Paper is issued. What has the White Paper to do with it?

Wages Boards (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware of the necessity of forthwith appointing Wages Boards for each county or district in Ireland, and making the terms retrospective; if he is aware that many farmers have refused to increase their workmen's wages to the amount agreed upon by their own association; and that if action is not taken before the harvest the men will have no alternative but to strike?

The Corn Production Bill provides the statutory authorities for a Wages Board for agricultural labour, and I anticipate that immediately the Bill becomes law it will be put into operation in Ireland. Meantime, employers and employed are in most parts of the country making reasonable voluntary arrangements: I have no knowledge on the points raised in the second part of the question.

Irish Allotments Bill

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he will introduce into the Irish Allotments Bill powers similar to those in the English and Scottish Smallholdings Acts giving power to rural councils to acquire compulsorily or otherwise common pasturage for labourers' cows?

Having regard to the existing legislative facilities and the absence of any general demand from Irish rural authorities for increased powers, I do not see my way to introduce such powers in the Bill now before the House.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some sort of security of tenure is required by the plot-holders in Ireland similar to what is given in England and Scotland?

Dublin Rebellion (Property Losses)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he has promised to receive a deputation of the Dublin Property and Losses Association in connection with the losses and other things affecting the owners of the ruined area; and, if so, will it be at an early date?

I have promised to receive a deputation as soon as I am able. Recently my time has been too fully occupied to admit of my doing so

Liquor Restrictions (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he is aware that a number of licensed houses in Ireland have to close their premises two days a week owing to shortage of supplies; if he is aware that this is caused by the restriction on the brewing and distilling industries; and if he will say whether the traders will be compensated or if it is the Government's intention to continue this form of confiscating property and ruining Irish industries?

I have no information as to the closing of licensed premises owing to shortage of supplies except in Dublin, where I am told fifteen public-houses were obliged to close on two or more days a week and several others for a day or a portion of a day. No compensation for the general effect of the War in interference with business interests has been paid in any part of the country, and I cannot hold out a hope of its being introduced.

As a result of these restrictions is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are several cases in Ireland, especially in my own constituency, in which the traders and their wives and children are actually starving, and can nothing be done in this matter?

This is not a matter peculiar to one area of the United Kingdom. The restrictions on liquor are universal in the United Kingdom. They are not restrictions which originated in the Irish Office, and are not under my control.

Are not the conditions in this country totally different from what they are in Ireland?

I am aware that there are particular conditions which differ, but the general difficulty is the same.

Is the right hon. Gentleman quite correct? Are the regulations which have been applied by the Liquor Control Board applied in Ireland also?

I think, generally speaking, that that is so. If the hon. Member wants to have an answer of which I can be certain he must put down a question. There is certainly a degree of restriction in Ireland, due to general regulations. Not having particular occasion to refer to the Irish and English conditions, I thought that they were the same.

Dismissal of Public Servants (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he will state the number of public servants dismissed in connection with the Irish insurrection of 1916; the specific grounds of dismissal in each case; and whether, with a view of allaying the discontent caused by such action and thereby giving a manifestation of the sin- cerity of the Government in their desire to remove any obstacles likely to hinder the work of the proposed Irish Convention, as well as with a view to accord with the spirit of the amnesty which it was understood would apply to all who were penalised in connection with the insurrection, he will state what steps are being taken to reinstate these men and to compensate them for their loss of employment?

The Committee which dealt with this matter recommended dismissal in twenty-three cases. In each case the ground of dismissal was unfitness for the service of the Crown. As I have before explained, remission of punishment for rebellion is not analogous to re-employment of officials who do not observe the conditions of their service. No question of compensation arises.

Attack on Police Barrack (County Kerry)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he has received any Report of an attempted attack on the police barrack at Ballybunion, county Kerry, on the 11th instant, in which a man was fatally injured; is he aware that a coroner's jury returned a verdict of wilful murder against constables on duty in the barracks; and will he say what action the Government propose to take?

The answer to the first two questions is in the affirmative. I am not yet in possession of a sufficiently clear statement of the circumstances to warrant me in saying what action, if any, it may be necessary that the Government should take.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of the witnesses at the coroner's inquest swore that she saw a policeman deliberately aim at a man and shoot him dead; and will the Crown take any proceedings against the policeman for murder?

Primary Education (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he expects to be in a position to give full particulars of the new Grant for Irish primary education; and whether he will especially consider the following points, i.e., that no settlement can be regarded as satisfactory unless the salaries of Irish primary teachers are levelled up to those of the English and Scottish teachers; that under the new scheme, qualification, merit, and service should be the only factors in determining promotion as from school to school and increase of salary; and that no portion of the Grant should be allocated for special salaries for teachers in large schools?

I expect to make a statement on this subject to-morrow after considering all the matters affecting it, including that mentioned in the question.

Teachers' Salaries and Pensions (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the National Board of Education will take into consideration the fact that many teachers with salaries little more than £100 a year have large families, and that with the continual rise in prices living is becoming difficult in such cases; and whether he will devise a scheme to assist such teachers, either by way of bonus or by allowance for each child under sixteen?

Damage to Memorial Tablet (Diss)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will call for a Report of a trial of Henry Garnham at the Diss Police Court on 11th July, when Garnham was sentenced to a month's imprisonment without the option of a fine for damage to a memorial tablet erected to the memory of his son; and will he, in view of the fact that the prosecutors were willing to settle the case but for the difficulty raised by the chancellor of the diocese in regard to the faculty, recommend Garnham's immediate release from prison?

Garnham has appealed to Quarter Sessions, and was released on the 14th July pending his appeal. I cannot interfere while an appeal is pending.

Enemy Aliens

Escaped Prisoner Kehrhan

asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the fact that Louis Ferdinand Kehrhan was interned in Brixton prison on account of his escape from an internment camp, he will now state by what tribunal Kehrhan was sentenced; what was the length of the sentence; and what the authorities intend to do with the prisoner on the expiration of the sentence?

I explained the facts of this case to the hon. Member in reply to his question of the 13th June. Kehrhan is not serving any sentence.

Military Service

Non-Combatant Corps

asked the Home Secretary whether an appeal has been received from A. G. Melhuish, now at the Settlement, Princetown, late of the Non-Combatant Corps, Eastern Company, asking for permission to have his case reviewed by the military service tribunal; and whether, seeing that this request was made on the suggestion of Major-General Dow, the president of the district court-martial on Melhuish at Newhaven Garrison, this request will be granted?

No such application has been received by the Home Office or the Committee on Employment of Conscientious Objectors.

Does the right hon. Gentleman say that no application has been received?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if the Army Council have received a request from Mr. A. G. Melhuish, the Settlement, Prince-town, late No. 2125, 6th Company, Eastern Non-Combatant Corps, requesting permission to have his case reviewed by the military service tribunal; and whether, in view of the fact that Major-General Dow, president of the district court- martial before whom Melhuish appeared at Newhaven garrison, suggested that this request should be made, it will be granted, especially seeing that this man is willing to undertake work in the Army Optical Corps of the Royal Army Medical Corps, for which he has special qualifications?

I am afraid that I am not at present in a position to answer my hon. Friend, but I hope to do so shortly.

Conscientious Objectors

asked the President of the Local Government Board how many conscientious objectors of military age are at present engaged as teachers in the national schools coming within the area of the London County Council; whether it was on the advice of the Pelham Committee that these men have been retained in the service of the London County Council; and, if not, will he state the tribunals in each case who have allowed teaching in the national schools to be carried on as work of national importance by men of military age who pleaded conscientious objection?

The first part of my hon. Friend's question should be addressed to the President of the Board of Education. I will, however, make some inquiry from the Committee on Work of National Importance. I regret that I have not the information asked for in the last part of the question.

Artisans in Rural Districts

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether, in view of the need of wheelwrights, smiths, and millers in agricultural districts, he will take steps for an Order being made by which such men shall not be called to the Army without the consent of the war agricultural committee?

The Board recognises the importance to agriculture of the handicrafts in question, and is giving careful consideration to the point.

Re-Examination (Notice)

asked the Undersecretary of State for War if he will call the attention of the recruiting officer at Swansea to the illegality of calling men up for re-examination under the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act with one day's notice only, seeing that this officer is in the habit of sending out notices giving the necessary fourteen days' notice, then following this a week or ten days later with a letter stating that the man need not report until further notice, and then immediately after calling the man up for re-examination the following day?

I am making inquiries, and will inform my hon. Friend as soon as I am in a position to do so. I may perhaps add that it would be an assistance if hon. Members would give me specific instances, which could be more readily investigated.

Time-Expired Men

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether the military authorities are justified in calling up a man who has been in the Army thirteen years, is a time-expired man, on being discharged was declared to be medically unfit for further service, and has worked at a coal mine for the last fifteen months and during the whole of his working life before enlisting?

If my hon. Friend will furnish particulars of the specific case he has in mind, I shall be pleased to make inquiries, but at present there is not sufficient information to enable me to investigate the matter.

Ordained Ministers

asked the Undersecretary for War whether his attention has been called to the case of the Rev. Benjamin Meyrick, who, although ordained minister on 22nd May, his certificate of ordination being received by the recruiting authorities on 23rd May, was summoned to appear as an absentee before the civil Court at Bangor on 3rd July; and whether, seeing that he was fined and handed to a military escort, he proposes to take any action in the matter?

As Meyrick was not within any of the exceptions contained in the First Schedule to the Military Service Act, 1916, upon the appointed date upon which under the Military Service Acts, 1916, he was deemed to have been enlisted and transferred to the Reserve for the duration of the War, it was not considered that he was excepted from the liability to military service, and having been ordained after he had been refused exemption by a tribunal, he was called up for service in the ordinary way. Upon failing to comply with the notice calling him up for service, he was summoned to appear before a Court of summary jurisdiction as being an absentee from military service. The Court having heard the evidence, decided that Meyrick was an absentee, inflicted a fine, and ordered him to be handed over to a military escort. I understand that an appeal is, however, pending in this case to the High Court, and the matter is therefore sub judice.

Seeing that this man came under the Military Service Acts last year and was exempted for more than fifteen months because he was preparing for the ministry, why did the military authorities call him up?

All that is a question of fact which had to be decided by a Court of summary jurisdiction. I believe the Court did try this case, and, having heard the evidence, decided that he was an absentee, and handed him over to the military.

asked whether ministers who have been ordained since January, 1916, are not now considered exempt from military service; if so, what purpose was served by the issue of Army Council Instructions authorising their pursuing their preparations for the ministry; and on what grounds was an ordination taking place in May, 1917, chosen as a test case rather than the first ordination after the passing of the Military Service Acts, stated to be the Anglican ordination of Easter, 1916?

While the War Office has no authority to determine questions of law arising out of the construction of the Military Service Acts, 1916, it is not considered that a man who was ordained subsequently to the date on which he was deemed under the Military Service Acts, 1916, to have been enlisted and transferred to the Reserve for the duration of the War is excepted from the liability to service by paragraph 4 of the First Schedule to the Military Service Act, 1916.

Instructions were issued in May, 1916, to the effect that theological students who had entered on their professional studies for immediate preparation for Holy Orders or for the Ministry were not to be called up for service. These instructions were, however, after consultation with the representatives of the chief denominations, modified in March last, and while it is not proposed to call up for service all men who have been ordained or entered the ministry since they became subject to the Military Service Acts, 1916, particularly men who were ordained before March last, it is considered that men who have been admitted to Holy Orders or the ministry immediately after having been refused exemption by a tribunal are in a different position, and the decision of the tribunal should be given effect to. As I have just stated in the reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthenshire West, a case in which the question is raised is at present pending before the High Court.

Does not this matter of procedure make a distinction between members of the Church of England and members of Nonconformist bodies?

Is the hon. Member aware that this man has been preparing for the ministry for the last seven years?

That may be so, and it refers to candidates in immediate preparation for the ministry. As a matter of fact, this case is at the present moment under appeal in the High Courts.

Enemy Air Raids

Public Warnings

asked the Home Secretary whether air-raid warnings are carried out by police officers actually on duty or by those resting or awaiting duty; and, in the later case, what extra pay or allowances it is proposed they shall receive for the execution of these additional duties?

On the occasion of an air raid in the London area all available police officers are called to duty. Those not actually on duty at the time but called up are compensated for the additional hours of work they perform by being credited with an equivalent amount of "time off."

Police Pensions

asked the Prime Minister whether the Ministry of Pensions accepts liability for compensation to, or pensions allotted to the dependants of, police officers who may be injured or killed while exposing themselves to military risks in carrying out the instructions of the Home Office with regard to warning the public of approaching hostile aircraft?

In such cases constables who are injured and the widows and children of constables who are killed will receive the pensions granted under the Police Acts, when police officers are injured or killed in the execution of their duty. The statutory liability for the pension, etc., rests upon the police authority, and, without legislation, could not be transferred to the Pensions Ministry.

Question

Textile Factories

asked the Home Secretary whether, having regard to the fact that textile factories in the West Riding of Yorkshire are not now allowed to run full time, he will withdraw the permission he gave some time ago, under different conditions, to employ women on the night turn in wool-combing factories?

It was agreed at a deputation I received last Friday from the workmen's union that this question should remain for the present in abeyance. The existing War Office restrictions on hours of work apply only to the merino section of the wool-combing trade, and provide only for the stoppage of the Monday day and night shifts, and the night employment of women is still necessary for securing the production required for Army purposes.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that in relation to the merino trade it leaves more labour free, and that women on night turns are less necessary?

That is so; but all I can say is that negotiations are proceeding between the Home Office and the workmen's union and employers, and a little later I may be in a position to report something definite.

Munitions

Sir W. Robertson

asked the Home Secretary why the Press Censor forbade the publication of the fact that General Sir William Robertson spoke at the meeting of the engineering workers addressed by the Minister of Munitions at Woolwich on Friday last; why the Censor withheld publication of the reports until Saturday; why the reports then released differed in material respects from those issued by responsible news agencies; whether the Press was forbidden to mention that certain speakers were interrupted; and, if so, on what ground of national policy this action was taken and at whose request?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave yesterday on this subject.

Are we to understand that any public man who at a meeting encounters a reception different from what he anticipated can make use of the Press Censorship to suppress the fact that he was there at all, and was the Press Censorship set up for that purpose?

I cannot assent to the general suggestion which my hon. Friend has made. I explained yesterday that the circumstances of this meeting differed from those of an ordinary meeting, and it was in the national interest that the action of Sir William Robertson was taken.

Was it not certain that the fact of Sir William Robertson's presence at the meeting would come out, and has not a far worse impression been created by this course than if the truth had been told?

Will my hon. Friend ask a member of the Woolwich Arsenal to address the General Staff?

Aeroplanes (Government Contracts)

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware that certain large construction works engaged on Government contracts for aeroplanes and spares have announced their intention of closing down for holidays from 31st July to 13th August; and whether, in view of the necessity for expediting the delivery of aeroplanes, this proposal has received the sanction of the Ministry of Munitions?

I do not know to what particular works the hon. Member refers, nor am I aware of any works where it is proposed to close down for so long a period as is suggested by the hon. Member. The Ministry of Munitions have sanctioned the closing down for holidays according to normal custom, as experience has shown that attempts to readjust holidays leads to disorganisation and consequent loss of production. In certain cases where the demands are of an exceptionally acute nature, arrangements have been made for continuous working.

Is it not the fact that several of these firms referred to are now working on short time?

If the hon. Gentleman will give me the name of the firm to which he refers or of the firms I will make inquiries.

Royal Ordnance Factories (Wages)

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware that in the Royal Arsenal the scale of payments is such that a manager may be receiving less than an assistant-foreman of a factory, and that an assistant-foreman may be receiving more than a foreman; and whether he will institute a new scale whereby the rate of pay for each grade shall correspond with the duties and responsibilities?

It is not considered practicable under present conditions, and in view of the varying number of hours worked, to guarantee that the earnings of shop managers and foremen in the Royal Ordnance Factories shall in no instance fall below those of assistant-foremen who have reached an advanced position in their scale. As the hon. Member may be aware, the question of the remuneration of shop managers and foremen in these factories has been referred to the Conciliation and Arbitration Board for Government employés.

Grenades (Examination)

asked the Minister of Munitions whether in the various munitions factories steps are taken to ensure that the examination of grenades is carried out in a thorough manner in the interests of safety, or whether, in the absence of any instructions from the Ministry, examiners are compelled by the management to examine more grenades in a day than can be done properly?

The examination is carried out in as thorough a manner as possible, every single grenade being examined as to all points which could affect the question of safety. As an additional safeguard, about 12 per cent. of the grenades dealt with by each examiner are re-examined by a specially selected staff, so that any carelessness may be at once detected. Examiners are not compelled to examine any fixed number of grenades in a day. It is impressed on them that great care is essential. The number actually dealt with by each examiner varies with the quality of the grenades.

Questions

Merchant Ships (Crew Spaces)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the improvements in the men's quarters on the merchant ships now being constructed by the Government, or still better provisions, will in future be compulsorily extended to all merchant ships of the same or greater tonnage the construction of which come under the regulations and supervision of his Department?

The representatives of the seamen have approached the Board of Trade on the question of amending the law as to crew space on board ship, and have been invited to formulate definite proposals with regard to new ships and existing ships.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping. Controller whether he will state the main improvements in the position and equipment of the seamen's quarters being carried into effect on the merchant ships now being constructed by the Government to ensure healthful conditions?

I am glad to be able to say that arrangements have been made for greatly improved accommodation for the crew in the standard ships. The principal features are that the crew are berthed in the poop instead of the forecastle; separate cubicles, or rooms, are provided, each fitted with two berths; the messing arrangements are entirely separate from the sleeping accommodation; a smoking room is provided for general use; and special arrangements are made for steam heating in the men's quarters. The floor and cubic space provided for the crew's accommodation are considerably in excess of the present statutory requirements.

Plumage (Importation)

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state the quantities and values of plumage imported into this country in each of the last three months; whether plumage is still being shipped at foreign ports for delivery in England, notwithstanding the prohibition against it; and, if so, why such importation is permitted?

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the importation of the plumage of wild birds still continues, notwithstanding the fact that such importation was prohibited by Proclamation in February last; will he say what quantity of such plumage was imported into this country during the month of June last; whether he is aware that the greater part of the plumage so imported consists of skins and feathers of protected insectivorous birds which have been illegally destroyed in, and smuggled from, British India and our Dominions and Colonies; whether he is aware that this trade is almost entirely in the hands of Germans; and whether he will take steps to ensure that the Proclamation prohibiting such imports shall be strictly enforced?

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the plumage section of the London Chamber of Commerce is dominated by Germans, or by men of German origin, many of whom are engaged in the feather trade; whether, in spite of the Proclamation made in February prohibiting the import of plumage, feathers are still being brought into the United Kingdom in large quantities; and whether he can give the ultimate destination of the stores of wild birds' feathers which are being piled up in London at the present moment?

A certain quantity of feathers has been brought in since the importation was prohibited, under the standing concession for the admission of goods en route to the importers or paid for by them before the date of the prohibition. The statistics of imports asked for are being printed in the Official Record. I am not aware of the ultimate destination of the imported feathers. If there is evidence that any of the plumage was derived from birds illegally destroyed in British Possessions, or was smuggled I shall be glad to receive that evidence for transmision to the authorities concerned. Apart from those already mentioned, the only feathers now permitted to be imported are ostrich feathers from South Africa, which come in vessels not available for ordinary cargoes, and a limited quantity of feathers admitted from France at the urgent request of the French Government to mitigate the hardship caused by the prohibition to French industry. I have no knowledge of the existence of a plumage section of the London Chamber of Commerce. The Board of Trade have the advantage of the assistance of a Committee selected in part by the textile section of the chamber in connection with the licensing of French imports, but I have been assured that it contains no member of German nationality, origin or association.

Will the hon. Gentleman answer that part of my question as to what was the quantity of feathers, not ostrich feathers, imported in the month of June last?

I will publish the figures in the Official Record. I can give them to my hon. Friend, but I thought be would prefer to have them accurately in the Official Record.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in India the export of feathers is entirely prohibited, and that all feathers coming from India are smuggled out of that country into this, and will he proceed against the people who import them into this country, the same as he would receivers of stolen goods?

Any information that the hon. and gallant Gentleman can give us on that point will be acted upon.

Courts (Emergency Powers) Act

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the case of Mrs. Padkin, of 37, Brook Street, Hull, who paid an assurance policy regularly from 1908 to December, 1914; and whether, as this policy has been lapsed by the London and Manchester Assurance Company and was for less than £25, he will say whether, in view of the provisions of the Courts (Emergency Powers) Act, he proposes to take any and, if so, what action in the matter?

My attention has been called to the case referred to, and I am sending the hon. and gallant Member copies of two letters which have been received from the insurance company in which they say that the facts have not been fully stated by the policy holder. The Courts (Emergency Powers) Act does not give the Board of Trade power to take any action in the matter and the policy holder should take such steps as she may be advised to recover any amount which she may consider to be due to her.

How can poor people possibly make use of the Courts (Emergency Powers) Act if the Government do nothing to help them? Is it not impossible for the mass of the working people to go to law with rich insurance companies?

That is a question for Parliament. The Board of Trade exercise the powers that Parliament confers upon them.

Brewing Regulations

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that public meetings have been held in many places over Ireland protesting against the new Regulations governing brewing, distilling, and distribution; and whether, in view of this fact, will the Government consider the advisability of modifying the Order?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. As regards the last part, I have nothing to add to the answer given to the hon. Member last Monday.

Are we to understand that the question is to remain as it is, notwithstanding the protests from a practically united Ireland, and that these Regulations will not be reconsidered?

No; the brewers in question may elect to come under the Order, but until it is known how far they elect to do so, any reconsideration of the question cannot be dealt with.

Food Supplies

Sugar

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether the present supplies of sugar are sufficient to permit an allowance of ½lb. per week per head to each family in the United Kingdom; and, if not, what amount per head per week does the sugar supply permit?

It is impossible, owing to difficulties of distribution and transport, to guarantee that every member of the public shall be able to draw at all times any particular ration of sugar from any particular shop to which application may be made. The total supply of sugar should be sufficient to give on an average the allowance referred to in the question.

May I ask, in view of the fact that the total allowance is sufficient, whether the hon. Gentleman will see that the co-operative stores, who have so many families on their books, receive the allowance of ½ lb. per head?

Is there any record of the number of persons comprised in a family?

Certainly. With regard to the question of my hon. Friend, I can only say that everything is being done to see that the regulation is complied with.

May I ask the hon. Member whether the Ministry is not now considering the possibility of an entirely new system for the distribution of sugar, on the basis of the registration of customers, working through existing agencies?

Will the hon. Gentleman say from his personal knowledge why it is so difficult to get any sugar in the House of Commons?

Bread

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food, whether there is a penalty for selling bread made of wheaten flour adulterated with any material save flour derived from rice, barley, maize, oats, rye, or beans; and, if so, will he say what body or official is responsible for discovering such adulteration and for taking proceedings to enforce the penalty when necessary?

The Sale of Food and Drugs Act, 1875, prohibits the sale of articles of food not of the proper nature, substance, and quality, and imposes on the local authorities the duty of detecting adulteration and of taking such proceedings as may be necessary to enforce the penalty imposed by that Act.

Is it the intention of the Department to call the attention of the local authorities to the powers which they possess, and to suggest that they should make use of them?

The Department is in consultation with the local authorities on all those powers of administration.

Questions

Westhide (Hereford) Parish Trust

asked the Paymaster-General, as representing the Charity Commissioners, whether he is aware that in the parish of Westhide, Hereford, there are four small cottages belonging to the parish; that a person who acted as treasurer invested in the War Loan in his own name in September, 1915, all the money belonging to the parish from these four cottages, without consulting the person who was acting for the parishioners, and for some time refused to produce the accounts at the parish meeting; whether the Commissioners now contemplate a scheme in connection with this property, making this treasurer one of the trustees; whether the parish meeting has lodged any objection to this appointment; whether the Commissioners have received a petition from the majority of the parishioners against the appointment of any person against their wish; and whether further consideration will be given to this matter, and no person appointed as trustee who has not the confidence of the parish?

The attention of the Charity Commissioners was called to the charity referred to by the person who held the accumulated surplus rents and had, in the view of the Commissioners, properly in vested the amount in war stock. The Commissioners, on the application of this person and of two other inhabitants of the parish, have established a scheme for the administration of the charity by which scheme a body of trustees is constituted, consisting of the councillor for the time being representing the parish on the rural district council of Hereford, two representative trustees to be appointed by the parish meeting or parish council of West-hide and one co-oprative trustee, the first being the person before referred to. No steps were taken by the parish meeting in the matter until the scheme was published. The parish meeting objected to the appointment of the person referred to, and a petition in the same sense signed by thirty-five persons was received by the Commissioners, who, after careful consideration of all the objections, came to the conclusion that no sufficient ground had been shown for excluding from the trusteeship the person who has been mainly instrumental in securing the funds of the charity and obtaining the establishment of the scheme. The Commissioners have no evidence of any refusal to render accounts to the parish meeting, though an allegation to that effect has been made. The Commissioners have asked that a full account may be rendered to them.

Irish Convention

asked the Prime Minister whether during his absence as chairman of the forthcoming Irish Convention a deputy will be appointed to answer questions addressed to the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland?

Arrangements will be made for answers to be returned to questions addressed to the Chief Secretary.

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that dissatisfaction with the composition of what is called an Irish Convention continues to grow rapidly in Ireland; whether the vast majority of those who may attend it will not be in a position to say that they represent anyone but themselves, he will abandon the proposed assembly and leave to the Irish people in their own way to work out the form of government they most desire; and whether he is aware that the latter course is the one advocated by President Wilson for small nationalities?

Eastern Expeditionary Forces

asked the Prime Minister whether the French and British Forces have been withdrawn from Thessaly and the port of Volo; and, if so, why this step has been taken?

I am afraid I could not make any public statement as to the movements of Allied troops at present.

"Nation" Newspaper (Prohibition)

asked the Prime Minister whether the prohibition against the circulation of the "Nation" newspaper in foreign countries is still in force; and, if so, on what grounds the maintenance of the prohibition is based?

Yes, Sir. The policy of the prohibition of printed matter, however, is now under consideration.

Air Services

London (Defences)

asked the Prime Minister whether he will give the complete list of the Committee it has been stated is inquiring into the air defences of London, particularly in relation to the recent raid; and will the House be informed of the results of the inquiry?

The Committee, as has already been announced, consists of the Prime Minister and General Smuts. They have been in close consultation with the representatives of the various Departments concerned. The report, which must necessarily be confidential, has been considered by the Cabinet, and the recommendations made are being carried into effect.

asked the Under Secretary of State for War whether certain air squadrons were recently with- drawn from the London defences; whether any protest was made by Lord French; whether such protest was in writing; and, if so, whether he will lay the same upon the Table of the House?

I have nothing to add to what was said by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in the Secret Session.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a newspaper with a big circulation makes this definite statement and challenges the Government to suppress it, and is any action going to be taken?

Can we definitely know, in view of the position held by Lord French, whether this is true or not?

American Wood

asked the Minister of Munitions whether any complaints have been received from aeroplane manufacturers concerning the quality of recent Government purchases in Seattle, United States of America, of silver spruce used in the construction of aeroplanes; and whether he is aware that there were no complaints of this kind when purchases were made through private traders?

No, Sir. The timber which is now being supplied to contractors is the best available.

Aircraft Engines

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is satisfied that no increase of output of aircraft engines would be possible if the fundamental principle of rivalry in quality and quantity of the finished product were applied wherever companies could be equipped to turn out the completed engine; and, if so, whether he will take steps to apply this principle at once?

The principle of rivalry is adopted in respect to design only. Once a design has been adopted, quality is adequately ensured by the present method of inspection. The manufacture of the same engine by various firms would not necessarily increase output, and in the case of most engines the total possible output would be diminished, as com- pared with concentration on one firm, especially where it involved providing special facilities, organisation and tools.

Are not the reasons for delaying the output of engines because approved designs are altered by the official experts?

asked the Minister of Munitions whether, in the placing of orders for the construction of aircraft engines, orders have been divided into component parts on account of patent rights held by companies for the construction of some essential parts; and whether his Department will inquire whether the output could be accelerated if in any case where orders for parts only are at pre sent placed with any company orders were placed for complete engines?

The placing of orders for parts of aircraft engines is arranged with a view to expedition in delivery, and the existence of patent rights is not taken into consideration in the placing of such orders. Whether orders are placed for complete engines or for parts depends entirely on the existing or potential capabilities of the pliant of the manufacturing firm.

Would the hon. Gentle man consider the advisability of cancelling all those orders for parts which have been given for engines which themselves are already cancelled?

I do not think my hon. Friend can point to any such instance; if he can, I shall be obliged if he will let me know.

asked the Minister of Munitions whether all patent rights over the manufacture of aircraft engines or any other essentials of war have been without restriction placed at the service of the Government; and, if not, whether he will see that immediate steps are taken to place the Government in complete and unfettered control of all these rights for the prosecution of the War?

The Government has full powers over all patent rights under Section 29 of the Patents and Designs Act, 1907, and full power under Regulation 8/cc of the Defence of the Realm Regulations to enforce the disclosure of secret processes and designs.

Is not the action of the Government, in fact, limited in placing orders for parts which are covered by any patent to the firm which holds those patents?

No; that is not so. The Government have full power to place any orders for any parts, whether or not they are covered by patents, wherever they think they can get the best production.

Losses (Official Reports)

asked, in view of the fact that our official reports of air losses at the front refer only to machines that are missing, whether any official record is kept of the number of our machines lost by crushing or being shot down behind our own lines; and whether the figures are published?

Will my hon. Friend They whether papers will till be allowed to suggest by headlines that there has been a considerable success owing to only a portion of our losses being published?

I am not responsible for what appears in the papers. They are, like human beings, liable to be wrong.

Can my hon. Friend edit, the Commander-in-Chief' s report, which suggests this to the papers?

Aeroplane Output

asked the Under secretary of State for War whether he is satisfied with the number of aeroplanes now being turned out by our aircraft factories; and whether he is prepared to consider the question of placing increased orders with firms who are in a position to execute them?

More aircraft could, no doubt, be used if they could be produced; the fullest use is being made of manufacturing facilities, and in creased orders have been placed with those firms which are in a position to execute them.

Is it not the case that some aeroplane factories are being closed down for want of orders?

It is not possible for me to judge of questions on those lines because two things have to be balanced—aeroplanes and engines—and very often some shops have to go short because other parts are not coming forward in time.

Questions

Cable Censorship

asked the Prime Minister whether; when cables to our Dominions are stopped and disallowed by the Censor, the sender is informed of the fact?

No, Sir; this was expressly announced in the notification that was issued through the International Bureau at Berne on the 3rd August, 1914, in compliance with the provisions of the International Telegraph Convention.

I cannot well say what is the reason, but I am assured it is for a very good reason.

"New Republic."

asked the Prime Minister whether he can give the reasons why the second number of a periodical entitled the "New Republic" has been prevented from appearing?

I had this marked down as being answered by the Home Office, but my right hon. Friend says that he has not got it. Perhaps my hon. Friend would put it down again.

On a point of Order. I have several times endeavoured to bring this matter before the House in order to have the opportunity of moving the Adjournment of the House, but through no fault of mine I have been continually defeated in that purpose. Can I have the opportunity to-day of moving the Adjournment of the House?

I do not think I could call this a matter of urgent public importance. The hon. Member will have the opportunity of discussing it next week, I understand, on the Vote of Credit.

I will raise the point of Order after questions so as not to delay questions.

I understand that the hon. Member put his question down yesterday as an unstarred question.

My answer was given to an un starred question yesterday by the hon. Member, and I will repeat the answer now. The paper in question was submitted to the Press Bureau by the printers, who stated that they were anxious to safeguard themselves against printing anything contrary to the Defence of the Realm Regulations. As it contained matter which would have amounted to a breach of those Regulations it could not be passed.

May I now, Mr. Speaker, raise a point of Order? In the first place, the right hon. Gentleman is not correct in saying that I put this question down as an unstarred question. The brief history of the matter is this: On Monday I received notice that this paper had been suppressed. I obtained a copy of the paper, and I saw in it absolutely nothing of an offensive or personal nature, and the question of republicanism was discussed in a purely academic manner. In view of the fact that the paper had been suppressed I immediately put down a Private Notice Question, but you, Mr. Speaker, ruled that it was not urgent, and, therefore, it was you, and not I, who put the question down to be answered in the ordinary course, not as a starred, but as an un starred question. Nothing had been done—a pure inadvertence, no doubt. I had the question put down to-day as a starred question. I maintain—and I think there is a precedent for it—that I am en titled to move the Adjournment of the House as was done by an hon. Member before on a similar occasion for the suppression of another newspaper. The fact that two or three days have elapsed since its suppression is not my fault, but it is due to the fact that the procedure of the House has been used against me, and I claim my right to move the Adjournment.

I say that the matter is not one of urgent importance, and it also appears rather difficult to say it is not one of public importance. I am con tent to say that the suppression of a news paper is not necessarily a matter of urgent public importance. The hon. Member's position is not damnified because I said earlier in the course of questions that he would have an opportunity of raising the matter on Monday next or when the Vote of Credit is taken next week. With regard to the circumstances under which the question appeared on the Paper as an un-starred question, I received a note from an hon. Member just before the House rose, and I wrote to him and told him at the time that the matter was not one of urgency and I could not allow it to be put as an urgent question, but as I presumed he was anxious to get an answer as soon as possible I handed the question in to the Clerks at the Table, and it was through my mistake that no star appeared upon it. It did not occur to me at the moment to put a star upon it, as I am not in the habit of handing questions in.

I would like to say a few words in reply. In the first place, I did not for a moment intend to cast any reflection at all upon you. I am sure that it was pure inadvertence, and I regarded it in that way. With regard to my privilege of raising this question on the Vote of Credit, I may say that I have reserved a subject of even more importance for that, because I have the deepest distrust of the whole administration of this country.

This is not the time for the hon. Member to tell us what his speech will be.

May I ask for your guidance in this matter of the suspension of newspapers? Are we to understand from your ruling that the suppression of any newspaper or only of this particular newspaper is not a matter of public importance? It was considered of sufficient public importance to suppress the news paper. Why is it not of sufficient public importance to discuss why it was sup pressed?

I must be guided by the circumstances in each particular case. I do not really think that I could hold that it was a matter of public importance that a particular newspaper, unfortunately unknown to me, should be suppressed.

A Member of this House may be isolated and unknown, but he has a right to be heard, and, just the same, a newspaper which may be un known has an equal right to express the opinion of those people supporting it. In all cases majorities start by being minorities.

Irish Lights Service

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if officials engaged in the Irish Lights service, including lighthouse keepers, are entitled to partake of the last war bonus awarded by the Conciliation and Arbitration Board; and, if so, when they may expect payment of it?

Officials engaged in the service of the General Lighthouse Authorities will receive the same war bonus as is paid to Civil servants in similar circumstances under the award referred to. This bonus will not apply to light keepers and certain other classes of employés who are already in receipt of a war bonus in excess of that under the award.

Mineral Waters (Taxation)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that owing to dual taxation manufacturers of sweetened mineral waters are paying a tax of over £50 on every ton of sugar they use; and whether, having regard to the Government attitude towards alcoholic beverages, he will see that manufacturers of non-alcoholic beverages are not unduly and unjustly burdened by taxation?

I am not aware that makers of sweetened mineral waters pay such a tax as that suggested. As regards the general question, I would remind the hon. Member that it was open to him to have raised it on the Finance Bill.

If I can satisfy the right hon. Gentleman it is so, will he take some action?

I am certain the hon. Member cannot satisfy me, but at any rate this is a matter to be dealt with in the ordinary way in relation to the Finance Bill.

Liquor Trade Inquiry

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether there are any members of the Committee appointed to consider the financial aspects of control and purchase of the liquor trade who are well known to be strong supporters of State purchase and also strong opponents of the liquor trade; and whether he will consider the desirability of such a Committee being composed of men neither interested in the liquor trade nor strong supporters of teetotalism?

The Committee includes members who are in favour of State purchase and also members who are believed to be opposed to it. I see no ground for any change in the constitution of the Committee.

asked whether the term liquor trade, mentioned in the White Paper issued in connection with the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the control of the trade, includes the wine trade; and to what extent would the wine merchant be affected?

The wine trade is included in the inquiry, but the question how far that trade would be affected by the Report of the Committee cannot be determined until the Report is received.

Will it be quite plain in the Report when published how far wine merchants are affected?

Shot-Gun Ammunition

asked the Minister of Munitions whether any licences were granted for the export of shot-gun ammunition, shot, or cartridges in 1916 or the present year; and, if so, how much and to what countries; and, in view of the restrictions placed on the manufacture and sale of shot-gun cartridges in this country, if he will see that no licences for export are granted in future?

No cartridges have been exported since the first Lead Order of 2nd February, 1917, was issued, and it is certain that no licences will be granted while the present shortage of lead continues. No licence was necessary to the Colonies previous to the Lead Order.

Are we to understand from that reply that it was not till February last that there was any restriction on the export of cartridges from this country?

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions, how many tons of lead were exported from Great Britain during the present year under licence; and who is responsible for the issue of these licences and for the consequent shortage of lead for shot cartridges?

During the six months ending 30th June, 4,975 tons of lead and lead manufactures were exported from Great Britain. This figure includes all the lead and lead manufactures exported to our Allies for war purposes and to our Colonies and Dependencies for urgent national needs. The licences were granted by the War Trade Department after consultation in every case with the Ministry of Munitions.

Who was the official responsible for the lead going out of the country when it now would have been made available for the shortage?

I am responsible as representing the Ministry of Munitions, having sanctioned the licences issued by the War Trade Department.

Have any inquiries been made as to the possibility of obtaining lead from Ireland?

My hon. Friend knows that we do our best to get lead out of Ireland or anywhere else in the United Kingdom.

National Service

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of National Service whether it is in accordance with the practice of the Department in calling up National Service Volunteers to direct a volunteer to leave an employment in which he is in dispensable and to take up work in another firm that may be in competition with his own; whether he will explain why, in view of the principle of National Service, a proceeding which may have the effect of penalising one firm and favouring another in the same line of business is sanctioned; and whether his attention has been called to the case of a printing office in Central London in which this action has been taken in respect of one of its employés?

The answer to the first part of this question is in the negative. It is not possible without further particu- lars to trace the case to which the hon. Member refers. If he will furnish me with the necessary details, I shall be happy to have inquiries made.

Ageicultueal Rates Act

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether it is the practice, in granting relief from rates under the Agricultural Rates Act, 1896, in respect of agricultural land of which a portion is occupied by farm buildings or other buildings, to differentiate between the portion which is not built upon from the portion which is built upon and to grant relief only in respect of that which is not built upon?

Rating authorities are required in assessing a hereditament, any part of which comprises agricultural land, to differentiate between the agricultural land and any buildings or other hereditaments which are not agricultural land, and relief under the Agricultural Rates Act can only be given in respect of that portion of the hereditament which is agricultural land.

The point of my question is: if a part of agricultural land is covered by buildings is relief given in respect of that part which is so covered?

That is an arguable matter which, I think, can only be authoritatively settled in a Court of law.

British Prisoners of War

asked the hon. Member for Sheffield (Central Division) if his attention has been directed to the imprisonment, now for over three months, of six British officers by the Turkish Government in a Constantinople prison, as a reprisal for the alleged imprisonment of some Turkish officers in Egypt; if our Foreign Office has requested the aid of a neutral Government to seek the release of these young officers from the Turkish dungeons; if he is aware that two or these young officers have already died from typhus fever, contracted during their incarceration; and if renewed efforts are now being made to secure the release of the survivors before a similar fate befalls them?

The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, except that the number of British officers is five and not six; the United States Ambassador was requested on 25th April to explain to the Porte by telegraph that only one of the five Turkish officers in Egypt had been under arrest, and that for attempted escape. The Netherlands Minister, who subsequently took charge of our interests at Constantinople, was long unable to secure the release of the. British officers, although he was urgently requested at frequent intervals to make every effort in this direction. I regret to state that one of the five British officers has died. We asked the Netherlands Minister at Constantinople by telegraph on the 27th ultimo for full particulars as to the cause of his death, and also of the death of another British officer, who was not one of the five in question. We have just received a telegram as follows from the Dutch Minister at Constantinople: "Four surviving officers returned to Afion Kara Hissar, 4th July."

Hay Cutting (Railway Embankments)

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether any thing is being done to preserve the hay cut at so great cost and labour on railway embankments throughout the country, or whether it is to be allowed to remain there until burnt, as it was last year?

The attention of the Railway Executive Committee was called to this matter in 1915 by the Board, and by the Army Forage Committee, but the collection of hay from railway embankments has not proved practicable to any considerable extent. Experiments were made by some companies, but the hay proved unfit for use for fodder, and its collection involved a disproportionate amount of labour.

Bull Wall, Dublin

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will allow the general public in Dublin to use the Bull Wall, Dollymount, without the trouble of applying for permits?

As I informed the hon. Member by letter on the 13th instant, the public are allowed the use of the Bull Wall at all times on production of a pass, which can be obtained on application to the commandant of the Musketry School. It is not possible to dispense with permits altogether, as the hon. Member now suggests.

Parliamentary Candidates (Soldiers)

asked the Under secretary of State for War whether any non-commissioned officer or private is at liberty to offer himself as a candidate for Parliament if invited to do so; whether he is free to join any association for the furtherance of his political views, and whether he can state what restrictions are imposed on the soldiers as to the advocacy of opinion on social, industrial, and political questions?

The answer to the first portion of the question is, as far as I am able to ascertain, in the affirmative. The extent to which a soldier is free to join associations and advocate his opinion as mentioned by my hon. Friend is governed by paragraph 451 of the King's Regulations.

Is it not the view of the War Office that some of the old restrictions are now obsolete, in view of the character of the New Army, and will not the War Office be willing to take that into account in considering the question of the present status of the soldiers?

May I ask, since we are prepared to give votes to soldiers as soldiers, whether that does not carry with it a right of association?

I have never denied the right of association. I said the subject is governed by paragraph 451 of the King's Regulations.

Re-Enlistment (Bonus)

asked if a time-expired soldier who re-enlists for the duration of the War is thereupon entitled to a bonus, and, if so, what is the amount of the bonus; and whether this bonus is paid to Territorials of long standing who, having been on active service abroad during this War, remain either voluntarily or otherwise with the Colours?

The bonus is limited under certain conditions to men who were serving on the 4th August, 1914, and whose time expired subsequently to that date. It varies from £15 to £25, according to the nature of the employment. Men of the Territorial Force who satisfy the conditions are eligible for the £15 bonus.

Can the hon. Gentleman say where the soldier so interested can obtain these particulars?

King's Liverpool Regiment (Sergeant's Pay—Refund)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if his attention has been drawn to the case of a soldier in the King's Liverpool Regiment who in June, 1916, was promoted to be sergeant, was later wounded in action, and on recovery acted as musketry instructor, who has been required to refund nearly £25, being the difference between the pay of a sergeant during the time he was acting in that capacity and the pay of a private; if so, will he state the grounds upon which this refund of pay is demanded; and whether the demand will be persisted in?

Inquiry is being made, and I will inform my hon. Friend of the result.

Officers' Promotion

Departmental Committee's Report

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the Report of the Departmental Committee on the promotion of officers has been presented; and, if so, when he proposes to issue the document to Members of Parliament?

I hope that copies will be available for hon. Members in the Vote Office to-morrow evening.

Questions

East African Native Carriers

asked the Under secretary of State for War whether he can give any information as to the causes of and the numbers of the sickness casual ties among native carriers in East Africa, which are stated to have reached a monthly average of between 10,000 and 15,000?

The principal causes of sickness among the carriers in East Africa are malaria, pneumonia, cerebro-spinal fever and dysentery. I understand that fifty-two medical officers have been posted to carriers' hospitals, and that more are arriving shortly and will be posted as soon as they arrive. Missionary help from South Africa is also being obtained.

asked the Under secretary of State for War whether the rations announced by him for native carriers provide 2,980.75 calories per day and 2,557 calories per day for the alter native ration for rice eaters, which com pares with rations for British troops of 4,334 calories per day and of 4,644 calories per day in the trenches; whether he has any official information showing that this deficiency of between one-third and one-quarter does not go far to account for the casualties in sickness among the carriers who have to carry heavy loads all day under most trying conditions; and whether he will take steps at once to increase the ration?

In addition to the scale of rations which I gave in my answer on the 10th, certain extras are allowed which materially increase the calorific value of the ration. These extras plus the ration yield for the ordinary ration 3,639 calories, and for the alter-native ration 3,201 calories. Certain increases, which have been recommended by the medical authorities in the different scales, have been adopted and will in crease still further the calorific value of the ration.

Temporary Rank (Army)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War how long after an officer has retired from the Army is he entitled to keep his temporary rank?

Temporary rank ceases when an officer leaves the Army, but provided he has held it for six months and his service has been satisfactory the officer would be given corresponding honorary rank.

Do I under stand from that answer that an officer who has left the Army is entitled to temporary rank as long as he likes?

No; his temporary rank ceases, but provided he has held temporary rank for six months and his service has been satisfactory he is entitled on retirement to hold the honorary rank.

Officers' Batmen

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if a unit with fifty officers is allowed one batman to every three officers and if three of these officers are mounted a further batman for each mounted officer, making in that event a total allowance of twenty batmen; whether, if there are fifty-one officers in the unit, three of whom are mounted, the number of batmen allowed is one for every six officers and one extra batman for each mounted officer, making in that case an allowance of twelve bat men; and will he give the reason for this difference of treatment?

In order to effect the greatest possible saving in man-power it is essential to work on some form of sliding scale. In this way at one point or another, certain differences of treatment are bound to occur. The question is again under discussion to see whether less abrupt steps in the scale can be utilised without an increase in the total drain in men.

Palestine Operations

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he can see his way clear to publish an Official Report as to what took place during the military operations at Gaza so as to allay the anxiety of the relatives of the men in the regiments which took part?

The ordinary procedure in reporting operations is to issue communiqués briefly describing the events, and to follow these in due course with the publication of a dispatch from the General in Command. There is nothing in the Gaza operations to call for any alterations in this procedure. No anxiety need be felt as to the military situation on the frontier of Palestine, and the health of the troops is good. My hon. Friend will understand that the publication of a dispatch from a distant theatre of war necessarily is a matter of time.

May I ask if any, and, if so, how many officers have been re-called?

I have quite recently in the House made a statement with regard to this campaign.

Royal Army Medical Corps

asked whether, in view of the good work which has been done and is being done at the front by the Territorial Force Royal Army Medical Corps, steps will be taken to prevent the merging of this force in the Regular Royal Army Medical Corps?

The administration of the Army has necessitated in some cases the absorption of Regular personnel into certain Territorial Force units, and vice versa. Territorial personnel as such actually consists of men who have been or are enlisted on a Territorial Force attestation. No distinction can be drawn between the good work done from what ever source they have been drawn.

Is it intended to maintain the separate existence of the Territorial Force Royal Army Medical Corps?

Examining and Receiving Depot (Dublin)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if the site of the permanent building to be used as an examining and receiving depot in Dublin has been fixed; whether he is aware that building operations are being carried on in the city; and whether, in view of that fact, he can explain why the Government refuse to build when materials are being obtained by private individuals?

I am afraid that I can add nothing at present to the answer given by my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary on the 16th instant to my hon. Friend and to the hon Member for Kilkenny South.

Hay Crop (Ireland)

asked if a price has yet been fixed for this year's hay crop; and whether he has yet received a Report from the Irish Advisory Committee of the Forage Department with reference to any modification or alteration as to the storing, baling, and delivery of such hay?

The new Army Council Orders fixing the maximum prices for the 1917 crop of hay and straw were published in a special "Gazette" last night. In arriving at those prices, and the attendant conditions, the views of the Irish Advisory Committee were received and given due consideration. No Report was received from the Committee with regard to baling and storage, as they are not concerned.

Frozen Meat Rations

asked what is the cost per lb. to the taxpayer of the frozen meat now being issued as rations to the forces serving at home?

The present cost is calculated to amount approximately to 8¼d. per lb.

Army Service Corps (Pay)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office what is the pay of a corporal and of a sergeant in the Army Service Corps, Motor Transport Department; is he aware that in many instances non-commissioned officers do not receive the increased rate of pay to which they are entitled until long after their appointments; and will he make inquiry as to how far it is possible to retain pay between his Department and the men?

The rates of pay are 2s. 6d. and 3s. 3d. a day respectively, with corps pay in addition, according to qualifications. I am not aware of any delay in payment, but will make inquiry if particulars are furnished. It is impossible for the Army Pay Department to retain the pay, as it is issued to the men by their company officers.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that soldiers have a mistrust of the paymasters, and cannot he make further inquiries into the matter?

If my hon. Friend will give me one specific case I will have inquiries made.

Swiss Subject (Conviction)

asked the Home Secretary whether Willmore Wittmer, now undergoing a sentence of twelve months' hard labour at Wormwood Scrubs, not having renounced his Swiss nationality and being prevented therefore by the Swiss law from enlisting in any foreign army, should not be released?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. On the 12th July I asked my hon. Friend to supply me with certain particulars regarding Wittmer to enable me to make inquiries. Until I have received this information I regret that it is not possible to answer this question.

County Court Officials (Salaries and Bonuses)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer who is responsible for the payment of salaries and bonuses to County Court officials, seeing that registrars and high bailiffs are not allowed to pay more than the Treasury allowance to them; and If by reason of vacancies or enlistments the staff is decreased the remaining members of the staff may have their wages increased?

The registrars and high bailiffs are responsible for the payment of their employés, namely, clerks and bailiffs, who derive their remuneration either from their employers' statutory salary and fees or partly from an allowance under Treasury control and partly from fees and additional remuneration. As far as the Treasury has control over such payments, the general rule is to allow an increase of wages where the work justifies such increase, whether on vacancy or otherwise.

Enemy Aliens (Trading)

asked whether an Austrian, named Charles Ungebauer, is allowed to trade freely in Lagos; whether he was naturalised after the War; whether, on the outbreak of war, he was expelled by the French authorities from Porto Novo, where his principal place of business was, his business shut down, and he himself sent to Lagos as a prisoner of war; and, if so, will he say why this man is allowed to carry on business at Lagos?

Mr. Ungebauer was a German subject, and is now sixty years of age. He was deported from French territory to the neighbouring British port of Lagos, but was not made a prisoner of war, as he was over military age. He had been well-known at Lagos for nearly forty years, and the Nigerian Government in the circumstances decided in September, 1914, to grant him a certificate of naturalisation, and allowed him to continue to trade. I am giving further consideration to the matter.

Does the certificate granted by the Nigerian Government give him naturalisation outside the Colony?

Wheat (Cost of Production)

( by Private Notice ) asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether, in view of the approaching discussion on the question of the minimum wage, he can state what policy the Government intend to pursue regarding rural housing, especially in view of the great rise in the price of all building materials, and also whether the Board have any estimate of the cost of producing a quarter of wheat at the present time compared, say, with the average cost over a term of five years before the War?

I will deal with the agricultural part of the question only, and before the Report stage of the Corn Production Bill more complete figures will be placed before the House. The hon. Member will be aware of the difficulties attaching to any estimates of the cost of production of a single crop in a rotation, and, further, of the variability of the cost of production from farm to farm and from season to season. The most trustworthy figures, based on actual costs, that the Board have been able to obtain, estimate that the cost of growing, harvesting, and marketing an acre of wheat in two Eastern counties for the present season will amount to £11 17s., which, at the yield per acre of three and a half quarters, is equivalent to 67s. 6d. per quarter. For the five years before the war the comparable figures were £7 7s. per acre, which, at the yields then obtained, gave a cost per quarter of 33s. 6d.

Royal Irish Constabulary (Pensions)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he will cause immediate inquiry to be made into the condition and resources of ex-members of the Royal Irish Constabulary who retired on pension under the provisions of the Act of 1883 and who are now in many cases with their families undergoing hardship owing to the increase of the cost of living during the past twenty years, apart from economic conditions due to the War; is he aware that numbers of these men were obliged to contribute to the Constabulary Force Fund while serving, and that some years ago they petitioned the then Chief Secretary to have returned to them what they had paid into the fund; and will he give the reason why the fund should not be wound up and the necessities of ex-members of the force relieved with the surplus available?

The cases of pensions awarded under the earlier Constabulary Acts cannot now be re-opened. All members of the Force who joined before the 18th June, 1883, were obliged to contri- bute to the Constabulary Force Fund, which is at present being wound up by the discharge of its obligations to widows and children as they arise. There is no power to return subscriptions and the rates of benefit are regulated on that assumption.

Is it a fact that it is twenty years since these accounts were submitted?

New Member Sworn

Michael Louis Hearn, Esquire, for the County of Dublin (South Dublin Division).

Orders of the Day

Business of the House

I wanted to put a question to the Chief Secretary for Ireland, but in his absence I will put it to the Leader of the House. To-morrow we are to have the Irish Education Estimates, and to my astonishment I find that in the Supplementary Estimates there is no equivalent grant for secondary education in Ireland. I cannot conceive that it is otherwise than an oversight, and I want to ask the Leader of the House whether he will see that all the Irish Education Estimates are put down, including the Vote for secondary education, so that we may be sure of being able to raise this extraordinary omission from the Supplementary Estimates.

The hon. Member will not expect me to be familiar with the details, but I certainly understood that all aspects of Irish education could be raised to-morrow, and I shall do my best to secure that result.

Could the right hon. Gentleman say what the business will be for next week?

On Monday, we propose to proceed with the Corn Production Bill;

On Tuesday and Wednesday, we propose to take the Vote of Credit and the Report of it;

On Thursday we shall take the Consolidated Fund Bill.

Perhaps the House will allow me to give on Monday the business proposed for Friday.

I desire to ask a question relating to the Orders of the Day. In view of the suspension of the Eleven o'clock on the Corn Production Bill, I would like to ask whether it is intended to proceed beyond Clause 5, because there is an Amendment down on the

Paper to postpone Clause 6, and on the following Clause, Clause 7, there are plenty of new Government Amendments put down on the Paper this morning. It would therefore appear that we have made such good progress that the Government are not ready to go beyond Clause 5.

It is rather difficult to say exactly how far we shall go, but I understand my right hon. Friend will be satisfied if the discussion on the Motion to postpone Clause 6 is concluded.

I understand that the Munitions of War Bill will not be taken next week. Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Report of the Commissions on Industrial Unrest will be available before the remaining stages are taken?

I cannot say without notice, but there is no hurry, because, as the hon. Member says, it is not to be taken next week, and if he will ask a question on Monday I will give him an answer. I ought perhaps to correct that. It may be possible to take it on the Friday, but it will not be taken before then.

Will there be an opportunity for the discussion of the new Warrant for officers before we rise for the holidays?

It will be very difficult, I am afraid, to find an opportunity, and I cannot promise.

Ordered, That the Proceedings on the Corn Production Bill and on the Motion relating to Intermediate Education (Ireland) have precedence this day of the Business of Supply.—[ Mr. Bonar Law. ]

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Proceedings on the Corn Production Bill, if under discussion at Eleven of the clock this night, be not interrupted under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ Mr. Bonar Law. ]

The House divided: Ayes, 180; Noes, 30.

Division No. 75.]

AYES.

[4.0 p.m.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke

Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

Butcher, John George

Anstruther-Gray, Lieut.-Col. William

Black, Sir Arthur W.

Carneqie, Lieut.-Colonel D. G.

Archdale, Lieut. Edward M.

Blair, Reginald

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Baird, John Lawrence

Blake, Sir Francis Douglas

Cautley, H. S.

Baldwin, Stanley

Bliss, Joseph

Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George

Barnett, Captain R. W.

Boland, John Plus

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Ashton Manor)

Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick Burghs)

Boles, Lieut.-Colonel Dennis Fortescue

Clive, Captain Percy Archer

Beach, William F. H.

Boyton, James

Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon)

Beale, Sir William Phipson

Brace, Rt. Hon. William

Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth)

Beck, Arthur Cecil

Brady, Patrick Joseph

Collins, Sir W. (Derby)

Bellairs, Commander C. W.

Brunner, John F. L.

Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

Coote, William

Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

Philipps, Captain Sir Owen (Chester)

Cory, James H. (Cardiff)

Jones, W. Kennedy (Hornsey)

Pratt, J. W.

Craig, Colonel James (Down, E.)

Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney)

Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

Craik, Sir Henry

Joyce, Michael

Prothere, Rt. Hen. Rowland Edmund

Crooks, Rt. Hon. William

Keating, Matthew

Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

Crumley, Patrick

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

Currie, George W.

Kilbride, Denis

Rendall, Athelstan

Dairymple, Hon. H. H.

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford

Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon S. Melton)

Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

Robertson, Rt. Hon. John M.

Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

Robinson, Sidney

Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert

Rowlands, James

Denniss, E. R. S.

Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury)

Rowntree, Arnold

Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby N.

Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dewsbury)

Dillon, John

Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry (Norwood)

Doris, William

Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Scanlan, Thomas

Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid.)

Lundon, Thomas

Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

Macdonald, Rt. Hon. J. M. (Falk. B'ghs)

Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir F. E. (Walton)

Falconer, James

McGhee, Richard

Spear, Sir John Ward

Fell, Arthur

Macleod, John Mackintosh

Starkey, John R.

Field, William

Macmaster, Donald

Stewart, Gershom

Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

McMicking, Major Gilbert

Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

Sykes, Col. Sir A. J. (Ches., Knutsfd.)

Fleming, Sir John

MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

Sykes, Sir Mark (Hull, Central)

France, Gerald Ashburner

Macpherson, James Ian

Talbot, Lord Edmund

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Malcolm, Ian

Terrell, George (Wilts., N. W.)

Goddard, Rt. Hon. Sir Daniel Ford

Marriott, J. A. R.

Thomas, Sir A. G. (Mon., S.)

Goulding, Sir Edward Alfred

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Toulmin, Sir George

Greig, Colonel J. W.

Meux, Hon. Sir Hedworth

Walker, Colonel William Hall

Gulland, Rt. Han. John William

Middlemore, John Throgmorton

Wardle, George J.

Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

Molloy, Michael

Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

Hackett, John

Money, Sir L. G. Chiozza

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord C. J.

Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness)

Weston, J. W.

Hancock, John George

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N. W.)

Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

Newman, John R. P.

Williams, Col. Sir Robert (Dorset, W.)

Haslam, Lewis

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Williams, Thomas J. (Swansea)

Hearn, Michael Louis

Nolan, Joseph

Wilson-Fox, Henry

Henry, Sir Charles

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Winfrey, Sir Richard

Hewins, William Albert Samuel

O'Leary, Daniel

Wing, Thomas Edward

Hinds, John

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

Palmer, Godfrey Mark

Wood, John (Stalybridge)

Holmes, Daniel Turner

Partington, Hon. Oswald

Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow)

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Pearce, Sir Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Yate, Colonel Charles Edward

Hughes, Spencer Leigh

Pearce, Sir William (Limehouse)

Younger, Sir George

Illingworth, Rt. Hon. Albert H.

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n)

Ingleby, Holcombe

Perkins, Walter F.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain

Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Hon. F. S. (York)

Peto, Basil Edward

F. Guest and Mr. J. Hope.

NOES.

Adamson, William

Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

Anderson, W. C.

Hunt, Major Rowland

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Arnold, Sydney

Jowett, Frederick William

Pringle, William M. R.

Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

Lamb, Sir Ernest Henry

Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir F. G.

Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

Snowden, Philip

Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Thorne, William (West Ham)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. C. W.

Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

Byles, Sir William Pollard

Mason, David M. (Coventry)

Whitehouse, John Howard

Chancellor, Henry George

Molteno, Percy Alpert

Clough, William

Morrell, Philip

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

Goldstone, Frank

Outhwaite, R. L.

Hogge and Mr. Watt.

Resolved, "That this House do sit tomorrow."—[ Mr. Bonar Law. ]

Corn Production Bill

Considered in Committee.—[ Progress, 18 th July. ]

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 5.—(Establishment of Wages Board.)

(1) The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries shall, as soon as may be and after consultation with the Minister of Labour, establish an Agricultural Wages Board; and such of the provisions of the Trade Boards Act, 1909, as are set out (with the required modifications) in the Schedule to this Act shall be deemed to be incorporated in this Part of this Act.

(2) The Agricultural Wages Board shall fix minimum rates of wages for workmen employed in agriculture for time-work, and may also, if and so far as they think it necessary or expedient, fix minimum rates of wages for workmen employed in agriculture for piece-work.

(3) Any such minimum rates may be fixed so as to apply universally to workmen employed in agriculture, or to any special class of workmen in agriculture, or to any special area, subject in each case to any exceptions which may be made by the Agricultural Wages Board for employment of any special character.

(4) Before fixing any minimum rate of wages, the Agricultural Wages Board shall give notice of the rate which they propose to fix, and consider any objections to the rate which may be lodged with them within one month; and the Board shall give notice of any minimum rates fixed by them in such manner as they think fit with a view to bringing the minimum rates, so far as practicable, to the knowledge of the persons affected.

(5) The Agricultural Wages Board may, if they think it expedient, cancel or vary any minimum rate fixed by them, and shall reconsider any such minimum rate if the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries direct them to do so, whether an application is made for the purpose or not; and the provisions of this section as to notices shall apply where it is proposed to cancel or vary the minimum rate in the same manner as they apply where it is proposed to fix the minimum rate.

(6) In fixing minimum rates for time-work under this Section, the Agricultural Wages Board shall secure for able-bodied men wages which, in their opinion, are equivalent to wages for an ordinary day's work at the rate of at least twenty-five shillings a week.

The first Amendment, standing in the name of the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) [to leave out Sub-sections (1), (2), (3), (4), and (5)], would not quite make sense as it stands. Then I have a manuscript Amendment, which was handed in ten minutes ago by the hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Peto).

In the circumstances, if I may, I should like to raise the question which is contained in that manuscript Amendment on the question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," and I give notice that I shall ask the President of the Board of Agriculture to consider an alternative method of nominating the Wages Board. I will not move the Amendment now.

The next Amendment is that in the name of the right hon. Baronet the Member of the City of London, to leave out Sub-section (2). I understand that that is connected with all his. subsequent Amendments to the Clause.

Yes. I beg to move, to leave out Sub-section (2).

May I say that after I put the first Amendment down I changed my mind and put this one down instead. This is the first of a series of Amendments which would have the effect of setting up a Wages Board, with power to fix a minimum rate of wages of 25s. a week, and to ascertain what, in their opinion, would be an equivalent to the minimum rate of 25s. a week, that is to say, they would say what, in their opinion, should be the allowance made for cottages, and any of the various matters which are included at the present moment in the wages paid to an agricultural labourer. The result then would be that the Wages Board would not have the power to fix either a higher or a lower rate of wages than 25s. There would be a flat rate of 25s. a week for able-bodied men. There are several reasons why my Amendment should be accepted. First, it is necessary, if you are going to endeavour to increase the production of arable cultivation, that the farmer should know exactly where he stands. If my Amendment were carried, he would know that he would have to pay the equivalent of a cash payment of 25s. a week, and would know where he was. Of course, it would be open to him and to the labourer to make whatever private arrangement they liked over and above that sum, but the farmer could not pay less than that for all able-bodied' men. He can then make all his arrangements and consider whether or not it would be prudent for him to enter into a larger cultivation of arable land founded upon the assumption that he would have to pay the equivalent of 25s. in cash to his able bodied labourers.

Unless an Amendment of this sort is put in the farmer will be in the position —I am not at all sure that the farmer at the moment realises what his position might be without an Amendment of this sort—that it will be in the power of the Wages Board to fix any rate of wages that seems to them to be correct, always provided that it is not less than an equivalent of 25s. a week. The Wages Board is to consist of an equal number of em- ployers and of employed, with an independent chairman selected by the Board of Agriculture after consultation with the Ministry of Labour. The result will be that the two sides will cancel themselves and that the person who is really in power, and who will really fix the rates of wages will be the chairman of the board. There will have to be a large number of boards set up all over the country. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that all the chairmen will be capable men, desirous of giving the best decisions in their power, it will be absolutely impossible to arrange that all the decisions shall be equal. What will be the result? Assuming that in certain districts a certain number of the chairmen of the boards—because, in fact, the decision will be given by the chairmen of the boards—fix the wages at 27s., while other boards in the same locality fix the wages at 25s., what will be the result? Those labourers whose wages are fixed at 25s. a week will immediately begin to agitate to have them increased to 27s. on the ground that labourers more or less in identical localities and doing more or less similar work are receiving the extra 2s. It is only human nature that that should be done. There is nothing in the Bill to prevent labourers going to their representatives on the board and saying, "We wish to have your decision reconsidered, and we understand that in the neighbouring localities wages have been fixed at 27s., while ours have only been fixed at 25s. We do not think that when your board arrived at this decision it was fully acquainted with all the facts of the case and therefore we ask that there shall be a fresh meeting of the board to reconsider that determination."

As far as I can understand the Bill, that will be the effect of it. What is most necessary is that you should have your labourers content with their position and have their minds intent upon their work. The work of an agricultural labourer is skilled work. It is not like work in a factory, where there is always a foreman or someone representing the employer supervising. Especially on the larger farms the men are often working separately and in different fields, hoeing or weeding. As far as possible that work is done by piece and any question of supervision does not so very much arise. But it cannot always be done by piece, and where it is done by day work the men must to a considerable extent be left alone without supervision. But it is very necessary that when they are left alone in that sort of way they should be contented with their work and desirous of getting on with it. In many cases the agricultural labourer at present is willing to do his work and to take an interest in it, but if you are going now to open a door by which he can be constantly agitating for an increase in wages, it would only be human nature that he should take up that line. He will always be talking to his friends and thinking when he is doing his work about what is going to happen at the next Wages Board and how the case is going to be put by his representatives, but he will be going round to see his representatives and talk to them about what is going to take place, and the result will be that he will be unsettled and the farmer will be in the same position. He will be going about seeing his fellow farmers and saying, "Do you not think it better to get hold of Sam Smith? I think he is rather favourable to us on the board. Next market day I will have a talk with him and see if I cannot put the real true facts of the case before him. We really cannot afford to pay any more than we are paying at present." Under these circumstances all these people will be unsettled and the very object of this extremely drastic Bill, to which I am strongly opposed, will be lost. I think I have advanced excellent reasons for the acceptance of the Amendment.

Will the right hon. Baronet be good enough to make it quite clear to me and the Committee how the Clause will read supposing his Amendment altogether is accepted?

It will read like this: "The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries shall, as soon as may be, and after consultation with the Minister of Labour, establish an Agricultural Wages Board; and such of the provisions of the Trade Boards Act, 1909, as are set out (with the required modifications) in the Schedule to this Act shall be deemed to be incorporated in this Part of this Act. In fixing minimum wages for work under this Act the Agricultural Wages Board shall secure for able-bodied men wages which, in their opinion, are equivalent to wages for an ordinary day's work at the rate of 25s. a week."

Another point I wish to raise is this: The functions which are given to the Wages Board under the Clause as it stands are practically two. It is given an unlimited power to fix any rate of wages that it likes, but it is also told that it must not fix that rate of wages under the equivalent of 25s. a week. Those two things are both bad, but they certainly ought not to be combined together. It may be, if it is necessary to have a Wages Board, that it should have power to fix wages, but if it does its discretion should be unhampered. It should not be directed by this House to fix a certain figure. On the other hand, if it is thought right that this House should fix a figure, there should be no discretion given to the Wages Board to vary it. I remember perfectly well the late Prime Minister pointing out that the insertion of a fixed sum by Parliament was an extremely bad thing to do, because it laid the way open to corruption—that is to say, that one candidate in a constituency would say, "Vote for me, and I will endeavour to increase your wages to 30s. a week." His rival would say, "No; vote for me, and I will endeavour to make them 35s." I was very much impressed by that speech. I should like to leave the 25s. out altogether, but if we are obliged to have a Wages Board and leave it to the Wages Board, I propose this Amendment, because of the speech of the Prime Minister of February 23rd—a most excellent speech which comes in most opportunely to anyone who is opposing this Bill. In that speech he made it a sine qua non that 25s. should be inserted somewhere; therefore I have put down the Amendment with a view to meeting his opinion as expressed in that speech.

I should like to put the Amendment in a collected form, with the exception of the consequential Amendments on Sub-section (6). The question is that Sub-sections (2), (3), (4), and (5) stand part of the Clause.

I take it that the real purpose of the Amendment is to insist that if this thing is done at all, it should be done on the lines of a flat rate of 25s. a week for able-bodied men, and that the matter should begin and end there. If that were done, there would, of course, be no need for setting up any machinery of Wages Boards in the least.

Oh, yes. At present wages for agricultural labourers are paid sometimes in kind, and it is for the purpose of ascertaining how much should be deducted from the wages paid in kind that it would be necessary to set up a Wages Board.

I am not sure that that is altogether convincing, because a proportion might be introduced, or various methods, or we might decide that it should be purely in cash wages, and that might all be done by the House, so that to a large extent it would possibly abrogate the need for setting up Wages Boards altogether if that were done. There may be some point of substance in the objection of the right hon. Baronet to the putting in of a monetary figure by this House, because it is quite clear that it might become a matter of political conflict later on and a matter of competition between candidates as to how far they are going to go in the direction of wages. But surely the same is true in regard to the price of corn that the farmer is going to get. We shall have the same kind of competition there, and you may have candidates who will say, "If you return me I will promise to amend the Corn Production Bill, and in place of giving you 45s. I will give you 55s. or 60s." The objection is double-edged.

So did I. Possibly for very opposite reasons we are opposed to this measure, but in my opinion this Clause is the one redeeming feature of the Bill, and however it is done I think there is need for machinery for redressing the question of the wages of the agricultural labourer. If that is going to be done you cannot do it by means of a flat rate, as the right hon. Baronet suggests, because the flat rate would mean that in one county, perhaps in Norfolk, the rate that you set up would confer some benefit upon the labourer and would be a protection for him, but in other counties there would be nothing done at all. The conditions are wholly different. The standards are wholly different. Therefore I am convinced that so far from promoting the contentment amongst the labourers which the right hon. Baronet desires, the fact that the boards were acting advantageously in one section, but were doing nothing at all in other sections, whose conditions were entirely different, would really promote a great deal of unrest and dissatisfaction. We have the experience of existing boards. There are at present quite a number of boards dealing with different industries, such as shirtmaking, tailoring, tin-box making, and so on, and the universal experience has been that the boards have to be set up locally and have to take different local conditions into account. Without doing that they cannot work at all. Merely to set up a flat rate by this House would be the very worst way in which it could be done. There is far more to be said for striking out the monetary figure and leaving it to the Wages Board to decide the amount than for merely leaving it a flat rate by means of the House.

The right hon. Baronet said one of the results of this thing would be that there would be a good deal of agitation among the labourers in regard to the question of wages. I think that is absolutely true, but I am not in the least upset by the fact that the labourers are going to think more about their wages than many of them have done in the past. That does not trouble me in the least. It is quite likely that there may be agitation among the labourers to make the very best of this measure. I am quite sure the same thing will happen among the labourers as has happened among the chain workers at Cradley Heath, and that there will be trade unionism to a far greater extent than there has Been in order that they may get the full advantage of this measure, and when it gets on to responsible lines I believe that will be entirely for the well-being of agriculture. It will be a good thing for the farmers and a good thing for the labourers when the men are organised. The right hon. Baronet draws a picture of rural life, of the labourers getting their big wages and perfectly happy with them and perfectly satisfied whatever those wages may be. It is the old picture of the rich man in his palace and the poor man at the gate.

But they have not been content with their wages. I can assure the right hon. Baronet of that. They are not content with their wages at the present time, especially in view of the great cost of living. I hope the Government will not accept this Amend- ment, because it will be destructive of this part of the Bill. This part of the Bill is worth nothing at all with this Sub-section, and if the Government leave it out they might as well drop the Bill altogether.

The Wages Boards will, I believe, when a certain amount of prejudice against the innovation has been overcome, prove to be valuable institutions in our rural life. I am not an advocate for their being called into being on any other ground than that I believe they will help to bring employers and employés together, as they have never been hitherto. I believe as time goes on that will be the effect of having these Wages Boards. See what they mean. They mean that two equal bodies of employers and employed meet and talk over wages. One of these two sections no doubt represents the interests of the trades concerned, and the other will represent the interest of what is the cost of living. They will discuss matters and gradually come to the point of agreement. In that process there is no doubt they will get to know one another very much better than before. Wages Boards will be a boon in this country if they are properly worked without political or social bias. They will impart into the hard economic laws of this country something of morality and something of conscience, and that is what we expect them to do. I cannot agree to this Amendment of the right hon. Baronet, because it strikes at the roots of the whole structure of our Bill and of all my hopes of the social reorganisation of the country.

I should have agreed with the hon. Member for Attercliffe (Mr. Anderson) with regard to his idea about the effect of the flat rate of 25s. in the Bill being subject to political pressure, if it had not been for the fact that this Bill proposes also to set up Wages Boards which are to regulate Whatever may be given over the 25s., through the machinery of the Wages Boards. I think the most striking argument for the setting setting up of these Wages Boards is that in addition to the flat rate, there will be the possibility of a very great; improvement of the wages of agricultural labourers through the machinery of the Wages Boards regulating what is to be paid above the flat rate. Therefore, I think we get over any difficulty there may be with regard to any political pressure arising, because the flat rate of 25s. is in the Bill. If we were discussing the question of flat rate I should have more to say about it, and I may have later on. In regard to the question of the Wages Boards, I think the right hon. Gentleman is quite right, that wherever they have been set up they have done something to soften the asperities between parties, and to bring them nearer together, and I think the idea of a conference between them is excellent. I was glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman say that under no consideration would he drop this part of the Bill, because if he were to do so the Bill would not only be dead, but in my opinion it would be damned.

I do not withdraw the Amendment. I would like to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture that while all these arrangements are taking place and the employers and the employés are being brought into better relations, what is going to happen to the land? That is not only my statement; it is a statement of the Prime Minister. That is one of the arguments the Prime Minister brought forward. Anything the Prime Minister said will, I am sure, appeal to the hon. Member (Mr. Wardle). Perhaps he will not pay any attention to what I say, but he will pay attention to what the Prime Minister says. There is a great deal to be said from that point of view. May I ask my right hon. Friend if he will kindly remember what takes place this afternoon, and if in a year or a year and a half from now he will give me an opportunity of discussing with him, when the machinery has been set up, what the actual result has been, and then we shall have an opportunity of seeing whether he is right or I am right.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), after the word "of" ["rates of wages"], to insert the word "cash."

You were good enough, Mr. Whitley, to suggest that the Amendments I put down should be taken when we began to discuss Clause 5. Reflection has confirmed my impression that your decision is right, and I am glad that the opportunity has so soon come for me to raise what I think is a point of substantial importance. I desire to prefix the word "wages" with the word "cash." I have a number of Amendments providing that wherever the word "wages" occurs the word "cash" shall be inserted. My reason is this: It has already been pointed out on a number of occasions in this House that the wages of agricultural labourers are very seldom paid wholly in cash to-day. They are paid in cash and they are paid in kind. That part which is paid in kind is sometimes material and sometimes unsubstantial, but it has a kind of value with the labourer as standing for something. But the very uncertainty of that, in view of the proposal to make a new law by this Bill, leads me to feel that it is essential, for one reason at least, that the labourer should have fixed, sooner or later, a definite minimum cash sum which, whatever other things are given him, will be irreducible, and something that he can rely upon in return for his labour. It is difficult to fix the value of these payments in kind, and from that any amount of trouble arises. I am glad to see the hon. Member for Norfolk (Sir R. Winfrey) on the Front Bench. He and I have discussed these things in many a past political campaign, and we have seen many examples of the irregularity with which at the present time they are working.

That this question immediately presses for settlement is clear from a statement which was made last night, that the North Devon farmers had called a meeting to discuss this question, and to take steps whereby they might properly safeguard themselves by the readjustment of the value of the contributions they made in kind as a return for the labour given them by their workmen. I have endeavoured to reach this point by another Amendment, in which I suggest that the payment in kind shall not exceed one-tenth of the wages paid. I do that because there are so many variations set up, not merely by difference of locality, but by difference in the quality of housing, etc. There are two villages near the place where I live. In one of the villages a model landlord once dwelt, and he gave very handsome houses to all his labourers. In the next village the ordinary squalid conditions arise, and I can easily imagine that should the better village pass into the hands of a parsimonious person, he might endeavour not only to refuse the advantage which the President of the Board of Agriculture proposes to give to the labourer, but to whittle it very largely away, and so bring about very serious local discontent. The suggestion was made that this might be left to supply and demand. That cannot fee. The question has been opened on the one side by the farmers, and the laws of supply and demand have been set aside, and we must set them aside in the matter of labour as well. Machinery is proposed to be set up by Wages Boards under the Board of Agriculture, and they are to take further powers to establish local Committees. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of the number of Wages Boards. He knows a great deal better than I do, obviously, but I understand there was to be one board and that there might be a number of auxiliary committees whose duty it would be to bring under review local conditions. I would point out here, as strengthening my appeal for the acceptance of my Amendment, that these local committees may be appointed, and I suppose that the power of their appointment is entirely vested in the Central Board to be set up by the Board of Agriculture. Surely that will not give the protection which I desire, and it brings me back to the need for fixing at any rate a minimum cash payment, whatever wages are paid.

I would like to ask my right hon. Friend to give this proposal, if possible, even more than his usually patient and courteous consideration. Let me bring to his knowledge again the enormous difficulty of dealing ultimately, for that is what it means, with, perhaps, three-quarters of a million of wages claims within a very short time. Every labourer will clamour to have a right of appeal to these local committees, and the constitution of these local committees can never be framed to meet the situation in such a way as to give the labourer other than numerically a weight in the decision at which they arrive equivalent to that of his employer. At present the labourers have not independence and cohesion, nor are they so numerous in their localities, and, therefore, they lack the strength of large numbers in dealing with these matters. In order to relieve the board of an enormous mass of detailed work I would ask my right hon. Friend to seriously consider whether he could not accept such a proposal as I desire to make, and adopt the prefix of the word "cash" wherever wages occur, and so establish at least an irreducible something to be paid to the labourer in hard cash, the adjustment of payment in kind to be afterwards settled, if trouble should arise on the point.

I desire to reinforce the argument which the hon. Member who has just sat down has pressed upon the House. Agriculture is now, I believe, practically the only industry left in this country in which what we used to call "truck" operates. The system by which payment in kind is given has proved throughout the whole of the operations in which wages have been concerned a thoroughly evil system. It has had to be abolished in every industry where it operated before, often after a great struggle, and this House has passed time after time Truck Acts which have attempted to deal with the evil. As we are now face to face with the possibility of a new regime in agriculture we ought to make that new regime start on a sound and a sensible basis, such as the cash basis of wages does bring into operation. A man knows then definitely what he has to have. He knows its limitations as well as its opportunities, and there can be not the slightest doubt that any question of payment in kind, whether it applies to cottages, or allowances, or anything of that kind, is most unequal all over the country, and depends on custom and good will to a degree which is not fair to the men who have to receive them. It often happens, no doubt, that where there is an extra generous landlord he does have a great deal more good will; but what has been one of the greatest evils which this payment in kind has brought about? It has lulled the agricultural labourer to sleep. It has helped to keep him in a state of servility. He has had to depend on other people for their favour instead of having what should come to him by wages as a right. The whole history of the question of payment in kind has proved that it is a thoroughly vicious and thoroughly bad system, and, though it may have had certain redeeming features, those redeeming features on the whole operate to the disadvantage of those who have, I was going to say, to suffer from them, and in a sense that is true. I venture to think that if the President of the Board of Agriculture can see his way now to create what I believe will be a thoroughly sound and good revolution in the agricultural indus- try of the country, and bring about a definite relation between work and wages, he will have done a very great thing for agriculture, and a very great thing for the agriculture labour of the country.

I can assure the House that, as an ultimate change, I am in sympathy with the Mover and the Supporter of this Amendment. The question is one of payments in kind, or of allowances, or, as somebody has sometimes called it, perquisites, which also, I think, is sometimes reduced to "perks." These allowances are of very varied kinds, and, of course, a cottage and various allowances, such as milk, and bacon, and pork, and firewood, and potato grounds, and potatoes are among them; and they never enter into an agreement for wages. They are, I believe, by custom payable, but they are in the nature of allowances. It must be remembered that at the present moment the value of these allowances is greater than usual, because those allowances increase in value as the purchasing power of money declines; and I very much doubt whether, if that reason stood alone, it would be altogether wise to choose this particular moment by one sudden sweep to attempt what the hon. Member (Mr. Wardle) described as an agricultural revolution. I am—and I think the Government is—entirely in sympathy with this movement. We hope that in time these allowances will be done away with, and commuted for cash payment; but the point I should like to put is this: We are not, if I may venture to say so, competent to decide the value of these allowances to the agricultural labourer. There is nobody here who can say what their value is, and I believe I can go further than that and say that there is not a Member here who can say whether the labourer who is in receipt of these allowances would be gratified or seriously offended if they were done away with. We really are ignorant of the conditions.

I say, of course, that the allowances in kind, though, as I have admitted, they are not sound in principle and are not to be defended in principle, have at the same time considerable advantages. Let us take one instance. Supposing a labourer has so many stones of bacon. I am sure that is an argument that will appeal to the right hon. Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Leif Jones). That amount of bacon cannot be converted into any liquid form, and the bacon gets home in the right way to the labourer and his family. I believe it will be found that the wives of labourers—again I say I speak perhaps with no more adequate knowledge than any Member here, but that is my impression—as a whole are rather keen on these allowances. The milk, for instance. What a value that is in maternity cases, or in rearing young children; and if the labourer gets the money, at the present prices he will have to pay a great deal more for those things than is represented in the present allowances. I have put as briefly as I could some of the reasons why I think it is inadvisable to deal suddenly and by a revolution with these agricultural allowances. I very much hope that they will be gradually swept away, but I would appeal to the House to act in this case on a principle which I am afraid I shall have again and again to appeal to it to adopt, and that is this. We are not really the most competent people to deal with this question of agricultural employ. With all due deference to the supporter of the Amendment (Mr. Wardle), he must not apply industrial conditions too strictly to agricultural conditions. There are enormous differences, and we are in danger if we argue too much on the analogy of industrial wages to agricultural wages. What I am going to appeal to the Committee to do here is, therefore, what I shall appeal to them to do on other points, to leave it to the Wages Boards, which we are going to start. Take care that the Wages Boards have adequate powers, and leave it to them. I believe that we have provided in the Bill adequate powers for the Wages Boards to take care that these allowances are not put at such a high value as to make them illusory.

That is for the Wages Boards to decide. That is just the point. I do not think the hon. Gentleman himself would venture to say off-hand here what is the value of a stone of bacon. If he does, he has more encyclopædic knowledge than I have already credited him with. The Committee will find in Clause 8, Sub-section (1), paragraph ( b ) the powers to which I alluded, and the Government propose to accept the words proposed, after the word "reckoned" ["are to be so reckoned"], to insert the words "or for limiting or prohibiting the reckoning of benefits or advantages as payment of wages in lieu of cash." There it will be seen we give the Wages Boards the powers to limit or altogether to prohibit, showing that we have in our mind that this system may be brought to an end, the reckoning of benefits or advantages as payment of wages in lieu of cash; and that is the way in which I venture to ask the House to leave the matter.

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell me when he put down that Amendment? Was it yesterday?

We may possibly have put it down to meet the hon. Gentleman. As the House knows, a great deal of this Bill is being altered from time to time, but may I say that I have endeavoured to follow the course of the Amendments and to meet them, and I hope that the hon. Member will think that I have tried to meet him. If he can suggest any stronger words we will consider them.

The suggestion that has been made by the President of the Board of Agriculture appears to me to be the most reasonable and flexible way of attaining the object my hon. Friend (Sir W. Essex) has in view.

I agree it is permissive, but, as the right hon. Gentleman has pointed out, the difficulty with regard to bounties is not the same in every part of the country. I am quite sure my hon. Friend is quite conscious of the fact that to lay down any fixed hard and fast rule in the Bill might be dangerous, and although he has done good service in persistently raising the point, I think he ought to be obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for accepting the Amendment proposed from behind him, which really is a direction to the boards to consider the whole of these allowances and, if necessary, to deal with them. I would point out in passing that the full benefit of that suggestion which is to be adopted by the right hon. Gentleman depends entirely on the constitution of the Wages Boards. If they were to be composed entirely of farmers in any district, and perhaps the most pushing class of farmer rather than the most just-minded—that is quite conceivable—then the benefits which the right hon. Gentleman anticipates would accrue would be quite illusory. If, however, the boards are to be composed of the best men of the district and, I must add, men who are entirely impartial, because I think you must have those men, then I believe the right hon. Gentleman's object will be obtained.

5.0 P.M.

I am extremely obliged for the very sympathetic reply the right. hon. Gentleman has made to this Amendment. But I wish he had taken his courage in both hands, and gone the whole hog. He has now the opportunity of making a peaceful revolution that would he welcomed in every village in this Kingdom. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] At any rate, I think it would. He would very greatly simplify the working of this Act, and also greatly facilitate the operations of the Wages Board which he proposes to set up if he accepted this proposal. I hope he will reconsider his decision. He has gone some way to meet the point. Let him, on further consideration, agree to allow the insertion of these words, thereby getting rid of all sorts of dangers and make the success of this part of the Bill assured.

I should like to join in the expression of regret that the President of the Board of Agriculture has not seen his way to accept this Amendment. He told us that what the Government have in view is the fixing of a definite money wage as the ultimate change that this will effect, and he added that it would be difficult to make such a revolution immediately. But he must surely know that the passing of this Bill is going to work a revolution in agriculture, and in the relations of landlord and farmer and employer and employed. The whole object of the Bill, in fact, is to work a revolution, and I cannot see why this Government, which prides itself on being the "Do it now'' Government, should postpone the ultimate change which they think desirable. Personally, I think it is exceedingly desirable that the Board should be able to fix what it thinks is a fair money wage,. and if, after that, it is thought necessary to make allowances in kind they can still be made. Milk which is produced on the spot, for instance, could still be provided at a low price and yet be treated as a matter separate from the wage.

I am inclined to agree with the right hon. Gentleman that we are not in a position to fix the money value of these allowances. Neither, I submit, would the local committees be able to do so, for the reason that the values vary so much; they vary practically in the case of every labourer, who alone can say what he can afford to pay out of his money wage for the allowances made in kind by his employer. I do not agree that the fixing of a money wage means absolutely doing away with the allowances. The value of the allowances will be settled by agreement between employer and employed. Take the case of rent. The present arrangement is most undesirable. A man will never be able to get a good house in a rural district unless he pays a fair rent. He cannot insist on having a good house unless he does so; but, if he is paying money value for the house, then he has a right to demand suitable accommodation. He can claim worth for his money. But so long as the allowance partakes of the nature of a charitable rent, a rent of 1s. 6d. or 2s. a week for a cottage of the market value of 4s. or 5s. weekly, the result is that wages are kept down and the labourer is badly housed in addition. Therefore I think our object should be to secure for the labourer fair payment for services rendered. Let us first fix what is a fair money wage, and, when that is done, the question of allowances will adjust itself. I ask the President to reconsider this matter. It is a vital part of the Bill. The first portion of the Bill I regard as a work of supererogation with prices at their present level, but in this part of the Bill we are really going to work a revolution in agriculture, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will agree to the fixing of a money wage.

I would rather pay my men in cash only, but they are very opposed to my doing that. Suggestions have in the past been made to the men that it should be done, but they have always replied that they prefer to go on under the old system. I think the right hon. Gentleman has taken the right attitude on this point. He has made it possible to have a cash wage where it is -shown that the men prefer cash. One of my hon. Friends said just now that if it were decided to pay cash entirely there would be rejoicing in the villages. I venture to think there would be disap- pointment, and in many cases an absolute refusal to work on these conditions. I may mention some of the difficulties we have had in years gone by when we have proposed to pay wholly in cash instead of partly in kind, men insisted very strongly—

Surely it depended very much on the amount of money you proposed to give in lieu of allowances in kind!

It is inconvenient for the labourer very often to supply himself with the things now supplied to him by the farmer. Let me illustrate what I mean by that. We generally give agricultural labourers twenty yards of ground for potatoes. We do the cultivation and the manuring, and the man generally gets fifteen bags of potatoes free. If the farmer did not supply it the labourer would not be able to get the accommodation anywhere else. Then with reference to milk. It is most important that the families of agricultural labourers should have plenty of milk, and we accept it as a responsibility to supply them with milk under the present system. But if we are to be confined to cash payments only it will interfere with the community of cooperation between the farmer and the labourer, and, as a result, I am afraid the labourer will not get as much milk as he does at the present time, and as, indeed, he ought to get. There is another point. The farmer carts the labourer's wood and coal, and unless he did it the labourer would not be able to get it done at all. I say I would prefer to pay cash wages, because the perquisites, as they are called, are so miscalculated as to their value that it very often creates a wrong impression in the public mind as to the actual remuneration of the labourer, and it certainly would be better for the farmer in this matter to stand square with the public, who should know what he is paying his men. In the present high state of prices I am sure the men would be very disappointed if these perquisites were withdrawn from them. Farmers generally are very anxious to see the agricultural labourer better paid, and I stand second to none in that regard. An hon. Member near me interjects a remark, "It is high time." May I mention that one of the first results of the passing of the Agricultural Rating Act, according to statistics which have been issued, was to increase the wages paid to agricultural labourers to the extent of £680,000 a year, and if now this Bill is going to do the farmer any good there will assuredly be a better time for the labourer. We are not forgetful of, neither do we intend to forget, the magnificent loyalty the labourer showed to us in the 'Eighties and 'Nineties, that period of terrible agricultural depression. I say from experience the men would prefer to have adequate wages in cash and kind combined at the present moment, at any rate, rather than cash only.

As I have listened to the discussions in Committee on this Bill I have begun to fear that the net result of the whole business will be to seriously worsen the position of the agricultural labourer. We have, first of all, the suggestion that if we give him 25s. per week minimum wage, and abolish all perquisites, it will make a man of him and deliver him from the servitude of the landlord and the farmer. We are also told that, generally speaking, it will make his financial position very much better. Then we are told that this is not the proper way to do it. The President of the Board of Agriculture has reminded us that the wage question is a very delicate subject, and he has suggested that the question of the value to be put upon the allowances should be left to the Wages Board. We have very little information as to how that board is to be constituted, and, as far as I have been able to discover, Wage Boards have generally proved very unsatisfactory arrangements for working men. I should very much prefer to all this machinery of minimum wages, Wage Boards, and such things, to have done something to stimulate the formation of good agricultural trade unions, as I believe that would have been a very much better way of dealing with the question.

In discussing this question of whether it is better to pay wages in cash or in cash and kind combined we are forgetting an important point, and that is what the agricultural labourer is able to pay for the allowances in kind. If you offer him simply 25s. a week in cash as a minimum wage and abolish all his perquisites, you will be putting him in a very much worse position than he now occupies. You will be encouraging the farmer to abolish the perquisites and pay the labourer only 25s. weekly, whereas under present conditions he provides him with a good cottage and garden, he gives him a harvest allowance. and various other perquisites, and at the same time he has to pay the wages which are fixed really by the state of the labour market. You will be giving the farmer a nice reply to the labourer who prefers the perquisites. He will be able to tell him that "all these things are abolished, and the Labour Members in the House of Commons have said that they should be abolished because they are degrading to manhood, and instead of them a minimum wage of 25s. a week has been fixed by Parliament." You will, in fact, be actually depriving the labourer of what otherwise-he might have if you had not interfered with him in this way. If we were fixing a minimum wage of 35s., I could understand the argument that has been advanced. If we were dealing with the matter broadly and said, "We do want to deliver that man from servitude. We do not want him to be a pensioner for the farmer or the landlord. We want to pay him a wage that will make him independent of all these things enjoyed by him and enable him to buy his own bacon, and pay his own rent," that would be different. But to talk about 25s. a week with which to do that is an absurdity.

If all this Bill is going to do is to fix a minimum wage of 25s. a week, leave the poor fellow his perquisites untouched. Else he and his family will be in a state of starvation. Therefore, so far as I am concerned, if I have to choose between the evils now before us and leaving him, as the President of the Board of Agriculture suggested, in the possession of his present perquisites and his right to refer the matter to the Wages Boards, in the hope that the Wages Boards will give a great deal more than. 25s. a week, I think at this stage, when; we have no experience of what the Wages-Boards will do in the matter of the amount which they will fix, and where the perquisites are of such undoubted extra value by reason of the high prices now prevailing, that to deprive him of those at this stage, or to attempt to fix in Committee of this House what is the cash equivalent of those perquisites would be to do a very grave injustice. I live in the country; I farm in the country; I spend all my life in the country, except the time I spend in this vitiated atmosphere. I know very well that the standpoint of the agricultural labourer is entirely different from the standpoint of the worker in the town. He has got to emerge by somewhat slow stages from his primitive condition, and there is no use coming here attempting to enforce theories which will do more harm than good. If you organised strong trade unions and instructed the agricultural labourer and got him up in trade unions, then you could do something, but let us deal with the problem as we find it, and with the man as he is. Do not let us take away from him the benefits which he has got unless we give him something which is at least as good. Let us deal with the standpoint of the agricultural labourer himself. If you seek to impose these mere theories upon him if you will incur his wrath, and those of you who represent agricultural conditions will find out at the next election that he considers that this will do him great harm.

I regard the Amendment with the greatest possible equanimity. As representing the largest agricultural constituency in the country, I ought to be in a position to give the hon. Member who spoke last a little information as to what the only trade union which represents the rural labourers in this country really thinks upon the question, because I think in their interest, when one is calling for an organisation of labour, and one is talking of labourers resenting a certain policy, it is just as well to find out what they say themselves. I am intensely interested, of course, to hear the tributes to farmers in this House by hon. Members who drew a most glowing picture which may be true, but it has certainly not penetrated the dull wits of the labourers in agricultural districts. The farmers, it is said, are a sort of guardian angels of the labourers. Whenever a Bill is passed for their benefit they call the labourers together and say, "There is something to go round; we must share this." I do not think that that is a correct view. It may be. I should very much like to know the opinion of the Prime Minister on the subject. I remember spending a great deal of time upon a committee with him on this subject, and that certainly was not the view that we formed together. There is a union called the Rural and Agricultural Labourers' Union in which there are some thousands of members. I think that there are 12,000 members. They have some hundreds of branches, and, as Members of this House know, although 12,000 members may not appear a very large number, when you think of the whole industry throughout the country, yet it is a very considerable body and represents a very considerable body of enlightened agricultural opinion. At their last three annual meetings they have passed resolutions condemning root and branch this system of allowances and asking for a cash wage. I think that they should be allowed to speak for themselves as to what they want on this question.

I agree with the hon. Member who spoke last in this, that I do not think the agricultural labourer, if this Bill were passed in its present form, would be much better off. A wage of 25s. a week given now would be no better than the wages that were given before the War, but I face this Amendment with the full consciousness that nothing on earth will induce me to vote for a limit of 25s. I am perfectly certain that unless the Government alter their Bill they will get no thanks from the agricultural labourers. But we will come to that stage later on. I am certainly quite prepared to accept this Amendment. The headquarters of this union are in my Constituency. They have approached me again and again. I have fought elections in the constituency upon this question of agricultural labourers' wages, and neither I nor they agree with this Bill at all. Its proposals are not the proposals which they want. They are not the proposals of the union or proposals with which I have sympathy, but if we are going to do it we have got to do it a great deal more handsomely than we have done it now, if we have got to work the scheme. Therefore, I strongly support this Amendment. It is absolutely necessary, from the labourers' point of view, particularly in order to get rid of this old patriarchal system out of labour altogether. There is always a certain number of labourers who will say that they do not like things which the whole body of the labouring classes do want. That is found not only among agricultural labourers, but also in every sort of industry in the country. There is always a certain number of men who will not join the union, though they are always delighted to share in the benefits which the union obtains for them, and anybody representing an agricultural constituency in this House can get up and say, "I have consulted the agricultural labourers, and they would much rather have the present system." I do not believe that they would, and at any rate we have the fact that the only organised body of agricultural labourers which there is demands the abolition of the present system, and I shall certainly support this Amendment.

I oppose this Amendment for the same reasons as my hon. Friend who spoke a short time ago. I know, from the point of view of Lincolnshire, that if you had an agricultural labourers' union there to-day they would prefer to have what they call perquisites, instead of a cash basis. I endeavoured two years ago in a small way on one fairly large agricultural property to introduce cash payments. [An HON. MEMBER: "How much?"] The average was between 23s. and 24s. a week for labourers and up to 28s. and 30s. a week for horsemen. To-day the labourer is receiving 5s. a day and horsemen are receiving 35s. a week. The labourer gets 30 stone of bacon and 60 stone of potatoes, and the keep of a pig in the ordinary course. If you gave him the market value of that he would say, "We cannot get the same value; we cannot feed a pig as well and as cheaply as you." Then the wife of the labourer, who, after all, has a great deal to say to the matter, will say, "I would far sooner have 30 stone of bacon at the end of the year, because it does not give my man the chance of dissipating which he would have if he had the cash. I have got a solid asset which for me and the family and for him is of far greater value really than cassh." I agree that in all these matters you cannot follow the ordinary rules of the great trade unions in other industries. I have said over and over again in this House that you must have far greater elasticity in the agricultural industry than in any other. You cannot apply the hard-and-fast rules which you apply in every other industry. I should not be in order in elaborating that, but I may give one example. The output of labour in the agricultural industry cannot be assessed in the same way as in any other industry. In other industries you know what the cost of production is, what the output is, and what you are going to realise. The same does not apply in agriculture. Two men of equal capacity may go into two different fields and engage in the same agricultural work, but, owing to climate, soil, and various conditions over which human beings have no control the productivity of the labour is absolutely different. With regard to the Amendment, I can give my own experience. I do not want to apply the experience of one small corner of England to a proposal of this sort, but we have heard of the Rural and Agricultural Labourers' Union, which operates, I believe, in Norfolk and Suffolk—

The secretary has been in the House just now, and I am quite sure it does operate in a much wider field.

Did you really get them to accept these proposed conditions, or did you merely suggest them to your labourers?

I merely suggested them, and was met with opposition by the labourers and the labourers' wives. I am perfectly convinced in my own mind that if you were to start that in Lincolnshire to-day there would be a sort of opposition from the labourers. I agree that the farmer is perfectly prepared to do it. He knows where he is, and it puts him on an absolutely solid basis with these people. As far as cash payment for houses is concerned, it is no good giving the labourer a non-economic wage in order that he may pay an economic rent. The agricultural house cannot be treated as a self-contained entity. It is to the advantage of the landlord and to the advantage of the occupier that there should be good cottages on the land. Good cottages attract good labour, which is the cheapest in the long run. As regards the farm, both the landlord and the occupier in giving a house at a non-economic rent will look on the whole thing as a self-contained holding. They will say, "I am perfectly prepared to look on this as on my barn or stable, etc., and without it I cannot maintain the productivity of the whole." But you cannot argue from the point of view of the house alone. Indirectly it certainly pays the landlord and the occupier to give the labourer his cottage at a non-economic rent.

Is not it perfectly obvious that the landlord cannot do it any more if the local committee does fix the value of the house at a fair rent, and that the landlord will certainly not give the house, but will charge a fair rent, and that the labourer cannot possibly go on getting houses at uneconomic rents when the local committee is going to fix what is to be the rent to charge for the house.

I agree, but that opens up an argument which will be out of order as to the real cause for the shortage of houses both in rural and urban districts. I agree with the jumping off ground of my right hon. Friend, but it would open up a discussion which is not in order. This Amendment, I am convinced from my own experience of agricultural labourers in my own part of the country, is one which, rightly or wrongly, they would not accept, and if it was incorporated under the Bill in the present conditions of the agricultural labourers of England, it would do more harm than good.

Each one of us has his experience in his own constituency of what the agricultural labourers think and feel upon this question. It is quite evident from the speeches we have heard, that there is a wide difference of opinion among the labourers in regard to it. Personally, I have had a great many conversations in my own Constituency, and with agricultural labourers elsewhere in the country, and I have found that their one great desire is to get something substantial in the way of a cash payment per week. They really want to feel that they have the handling of the sum of money that they have earned, and which will enable them to do what they desire, for themselves and by themselves, in a way quite different from what hitherto they had the opportunity of enjoying. When I listened to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, and when he told us what we ought to have done about organising the agricultural labourers who were not organised like the industrial classes, I thought I was listening to a speech that might almost have been delivered at the time of the first Truck Act, when the industrial classes were no better organised or not much better organised than the agricultural labourers at the present time. They could not organise in that day because the law was against them. I sincerely trust that the President of the Board of Agriculture will give some further consideration to this point. We want to see that there is in this Bill, when it passes, provision for a substantial cash wage in the case of the agricultural labourers, so that they may do what they desire with their own money. With regard to the question of perquisites. I do not suppose for a moment that the farmers, especially the better class and more philanthropic farmers, who are paying the outside wages at the present time, will withdraw the advantages that are now given. In my own Constituency at the present time there are farmers who allow the labourer a plot of ground entirely free, in which to grow potatoes and to cultivate in his spare time, and at the same time they are paying far and away bigger wages than anything contemplated in this Bill. I know such a farmer, and there are many others of the same description, who would not take away all those advantages which are at present enjoyed, for they know the value of keeping the services of good men by treating them well and making them useful workers.

We are legislating for the first time with regard to wages, and unless we frame that legislation in a way which will protect the labourers we shall put him at a great disadvantage, because we might have in many places those perquisites and allowances overcharged in connection with the gross amount of wage fixed, so that the labourers would be in a worse position than they are at the present time. The only way the matter can be met is by giving the labourer a proper cash payment, and allowing negotiation in regard to all the rest of the arrangements between the farmer and him. In regard to any additional liberality on the part of the farmer with regard to perquisites, the drawing of coal and matters of that description, I do not think that those advantages would be taken away, even though the cash payment of wages were made. But, given the payment of cash wages, perhaps these questions of perquisites might then become the subject of arrangement and negotiation. In many cases at present the labourer's cottage is far from any railway station, and the drawing of coal is a matter of importance to him, because, without that drawing of coal over a long distance, his family would be without coal for the whole winter, and that is a matter which he will have to take into consideration. Still, I do not think that is one of the things which would prevent the payment of cash wages, for the farmer knows the importance of keeping a good man in his service, and he would realise that the drawing of coal was essential to the comfort of the labourer and to his capacity to do good work on the farm. I sincerely hope that the President of the Board of Agriculture will take these matters into consideration.

It seems to me that the Agricultural Labourers' Union must be taken as having declared in favour of cash wages in place of wages in kind. It was stated by the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite that the union has only branches in two counties. As a matter of fact the union has branches established in twenty counties in England, and so far as you can get agricultural labourers' opinion you have got it through the medium of this association. To my mind a good many Members have entirely missed the point of this Amendment. Apparently it is thought that what the Mover intends is to destroy all kinds of human relationship between the farmer and the labourer, so that the farmer can no longer be kind to the labourer's wife or child; that in the summer time especially, when there is a flush of milk, the farmer's kindly wife will no longer say, "Here is an extra pail of milk; take it home to the children," and that all these acts of kindness are going to be abolished. That is nonsense. This Amendment is not going to interfere in any degree with any kindness on the part of the farmer as to firewood, perquisites, or anything else. The hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite argued in this way—that at the end of the year, sometimes, a special arrangement might be made in regard to the selling of 30 stone of bacon to the labourer's wife at a specially low rate, and that, as I understand, is really going to be included as part of the labourers' wages during the twelve months.

I would point out that in most cases there are different conditions and terms in different counties. All we ask is that, just as many Members of this House say that the farmer should know where he is—which I think a perfectly reasonable thing to ask—so the labourer should also know where he is, and the best way to deal with his case is to lay down the amount of the minimum wage to be payable in cash, and after that is done you can add as much as you like in the way of perquisites—cheap bacon, potatoes, a bit of land, and everything else that you care to put in. Unless this Amendment is adopted, what is going to happen? That is the point at which the Committee have to look. Unless this Amendment is adopted, the last state of the labourer is going to be worse than the first. Why do I say that? Take first of all, what is put down as a basis for the guidance of what I believe will really form the minimum wage in a number of districts—that is, 25s. a week. Does anybody believe that 25s. a week is a fair wage for the labourer at the present time, in view of the enormous rise in food prices and the cost of living? I have no hesitation in saying now, as bearing on this Amendment, that 25s. a week is not worth more than was 15s. a week in pre-war times and pre-war conditions. In the meantime, sticking to this point that the 25s. a week is not worth more than was 15s. in pre-war conditions, what is going to happen in addition? There is going to be a readjustment in regard to potatoes for labourers, and probably a readjustment in regard to his House, and may be his land, and our Amendments are directed to protecting the labourers against all these things being included in the 25s. The hon. Member does not realise that these perquisites will have a specially high value put upon them, so that the labourer is going to get in point of fact a wage of the pre-war value of 15s., and he is going to pay more for these perquisites than before.

I would point out to the hon. Member that the Wages Board would deal with these questions and will consider what is a fair price.

One very important point is that this House is going to be guided by the Wages Board, and is going to lay down what is going to be the limit of the cash wage under the present condition, and the Wages Board is to resolve these other difficult and complicated matters. That is the position as the matter now stands. I believe that the fixing of a minimum cash wage would not in any way mitigate the kindness of those farmers who desire to be kind. I know one hon. Member who would not alter his attitude towards the labourer in this respect, and there are other Members who would follow the same course. They would make no difference as to these advantages. But we are told that the labourers would be offended and would resist this Amendment, and that they would be up in arms against it themselves. It may be said, "Suppose you tell the labourer that cheap milk and cheap bacon and other perquisites are going to be abolished, what is he going to get in place of it? Would not that affect the labourer?" Surely it depends upon what the labourer has got as an alternative. I take the view that the more favours you give to the labourer, in this way and in that, the more you reduce his sense of independence and self-respect. If the labourer is to attain to real manhood he must feel that what he gets for his work is his definite right. All your cheap bacon, your perquisites, your cheap milk, are not his right; they can either be given or withheld. We want a rate laid down for a definite cash wage, and I believe that is the best thing that can be done by which to build up the independence and self-respect of the labourer.

We have had a well-informed and interesting discussion, and certainly not the least surprising fact about it is the conflict of views which has emerged between those who are acquainted with the facts pertaining to agriculture. The hon. Member who has just sat down spoke of giving the labourer a cash wage for his labour, though at the same time he appeared to suggest that the labourer would continue to receive these allowances, even if the Amendment were adopted. The object of the Government was to deal with this question according to the requirements, conditions, and needs of each locality. The conflict of opinion amongst hon. Members shows the unreasonableness of asking the Government at this stage to take the course suggested. My right hon. Friend's Amendment gives an indication to the Wages Boards. I do hope the Committee will not think that the Government is adopting an attitude of unwillingness to consider the question, but at this stage they could not take upon themselves to treat it in this way. Without giving any promise I may say the President, between now and the Report stage, will inform himself in greater detail on the matter.

I should like to point out the difficulty in which we should be placed if the decision of the House were to treat this matter as one on a uniform basis. The union which has been referred to I have known directly as an active union not only in the two counties mentioned, but in many other counties, stretching as far as Lancashire and passing through many of the Midland counties. It represents one class of organisation of labour and one form of remuneration of labour which is not the same as that which applies, for instance, to either the North of England or the South of Scotland or the North-East of Scotland, where there is an equally powerful, well-informed and intelligent union called the Scottish Labourers' Union. If the system for which my hon Friend pleaded, and I think with very good cause, in the counties to which he referred were applied to the area covered by the Scottish Labourers' Union, I feel sure it would lead to great anomalies and difficulties. Let we give two instances from the South of Scotland as typical of the difficulties which would arise in other districts. In the South of Scotland and in the counties of Northumberland and Cumberland where potato growing is carried on on a scientific and wholesale basis, the labourers are engaged for twelve months under contract, and here is a security which my hon. Friend will realise is far greater than in any Act of Parliament. Under the contract the employer undertakes not only to pay a certain wage throughout the twelve months, but he undertakes to give housing free and to give 1,000 yards of potatoes, and in some of the contracts they insert a certain quantity of milk. If we were to have a uniform arrangement covering the whole of the four kingdoms, and I know my hon. Friend (Sir W. Essex) is not asking that, we would find our labourers in the South of Scotland and the extreme North of England in this difficulty, that they, under the terms of the engagement, would find that they would have to grow their own potatoes, and it is not certain but that they might find themselves on a farm where there was only possibly one cow. kept for the farmhouse, whereas wherever the contract exists the farmer has to supply the milk to his own labourers, and they can both grow potatoes and supply milk cheaper than the labourer could do.

There is the building question, and you could not apply the same rule to Norfolk and other districts. The effect of the yearly engagement and the contract note system in the South of Scotland and the extreme North of England is that the labourer is the most independent, and I say with local pride, the most efficient in the United Kingdom. It is those great variations which prompt me to suggest that, in accepting the Amendment for which the President had made himself responsible, we were merely giving the requisite amount of elasticity and of direction to the Wages Boards. My hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Sir W. Essex) had in mind not only the Amendment under discussion, but one which follows in in Clause 8, which provides such benefits and advantages shall not be fixed at more than one-tenth of the total wages paid to any workman. There he does apply a certain amount of the freedom and elasticity necessary. On Clause 5 my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. L. Scott) has a somewhat similar Amendment, providing that the Wages Boards shall not authorise more than one-fifth of the weekly minimum to be paid otherwise than in cash. The suggestion I would make to the President would be to see whether it would not be possible to combine the ideas of the hon. Member for Stafford in his Amendment and that of the other hon. Member (Mr. L. Scott), in order that there might be a certain amount of freedom given. The abuse of the system is the real danger in the agricultural areas, where it could be abused with far greater immunity than in the town, and that possibility should be strictly limited by a fraction being fixed. We have only one object in view, and that is to safeguard the labourer from imposition, and at the same time to make sure that he gets ample remuneration.

Has the right hon. Gentleman looked at the Amendment standing in my name to Clause 8, and also in the name of the President, as follows: To insert the words "or from limiting or prohibiting the reckoning of benefits or advantages as payment of wages in lieu of cash"? I am inclined to think that that is a wiser Amendment than the one-fifth.

I think the President undertook to accept that. What I suggested was that what I may call the fractional Amendment of the hon. Member for Stafford should come under review by the Government, to see whether they could not take some means of definitely fixing a fraction, so that the labourer might be protected from an extension of this system or from an abuse of it.

I do recognise that the point put to me so ably by the hon. Member for Stafford is one deserving of very careful consideration. I can promise the House that I will give this idea of what the right hon. Gentleman calls a fractional proportion very careful consideration before the Report stage.

I take it that these local boards are going to fix somehow or other the value of the allowances which it is customary to give to the labourer. If the fanner thinks that the value of the allowances is insufficient, there will probably be a tendency to discontinue them, and, if that is so, is there any means of compelling the farmer to continue the allowance?

I think there is indirectly. Suppose the wage was a fixed minimum rate of, we will say, 28s., of which 5s. were in kind and 23s. in cash, and out of the kind suppose that milk represented 1s. If the farmer stops the milk and gives him 23s., then, in not giving the 24s. and only giving 23s., he commits an offence against Sub-section (4), compelling him to pay a minimum wage, and by committing that offence is amenable, so to speak, to discipline.

After what the right hon. Gentleman has been good enough to say just immediately, and soon after the presentation of my suggestion, I may point out that I am not anxious to turn out the Government by forcing a Division. There has been a lot of confusion as to what I ask in my Amendment. Some hon. Members judge the Amendment as though I wanted the whole thing put down in cash. Give us the thin end of the wedge, and we will give you better labour under my proposal.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

6.0 P.M.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), after the word "wages" ["shall fix minimum rates of wages"], to insert the words "and such other conditions of employment as affect wages, such as regularity and continuance of employment, the hours of work, rates of pay for overtime."

The Amendment provides that the Wages Board shall have power to fix wages and such other conditions of employment as affect wages, such as regularity and continuance of employment, hours of work, rates of pay for overtime, and so on. I would submit to my right hon. Friend that if he gives the Wages Boards these powers they will make this matter really effective. He must do something more than allow them merely to fix the nominal wages, because you cannot fix wages merely by fixing the rates of pay. You must give the Wages Boards some authority to say that the wage that is fixed is a wage for a certain kind of labour, continued for a certain time, and regulated in a certain way. As this Bill is drawn the Wages Boards have no power to do that, although they are instructed to fix wages for an ordinary day's work. What is an ordinary day's work? If the day's work is an extraordinary day's work, what wages are to be paid for the extraordinary part of that day? I think that the Government really mean, as a matter of fact, to give the Wages Boards power to deal with the whole problem of wages; the whole problem of wages is certainly not the fixing of a 25s. minimum per week for an ordinary day's work. Be-sides, I am certain of this, that the good fanner, the man who is supporting this Bill quite as much for its wages section as for its corn prices section, would like that the Wages Boards shall have as much power as will enable them to be turned into great conciliation organisations. If the Wages Boards are going to fulfil the ideal that the right hon. Gentleman has put before them, and which we all hope they will do, then the Wages Boards must have sufficient power to become real conciliatory organisations, so that farmers and labourers will sit down together, and will, in reality, discuss the problems that have kept them apart—the problems which concern them. Only in so far as my Amendment, or its substance, is embodied in the Bill, will the Wages Boards really be able to fix the wages question, apart from what is now provided for in the Bill.

The Government is entirely in sympathy with the object proposed by my hon. Friend in this Amendment, though I think there are objections, as he will understand, to the precise form he has given to his proposal. He desires to add the words he has read out. It might perhaps be possible to give the Wages Boards power to fix minimum wages, which carries with it at least some power to effect such conditions as regularity and continuance of employment by means of the rates fixed; but I agree that does not necessarily cover the whole ground. I think, however, my hon. Friend will see that it would really be impracticable in such an industry as agriculture at the present time to impose upon the Wages Boards—and that is what my hon. Friend's Amendment would do—the duty of controlling an the conditions of employment, because there are very few such conditions which do not either indirectly or directly affect wages. Wages-Boards, as my hon. Friend will realise, cannot fix conditions of employment in any real meaning of that Clause. What they can do is to fix wages according to conditions. I think they have some considerable power to do this even now. I would ask my hon. Friend to look at the Amendment which stands on the Order Paper in the name of the President of the Board of Agriculture to follow Subsection (3). I think he will see that in it there is a great deal of the substance that he desires. The Amendment of my right hon. Friend follows Sub-section (3), which reads:

"(3) Any such minimum rates may be fixed so as to apply universally to" workmen employed in agriculture, or to any special class of workmen in agriculture, or to any special area, subject in each case to any exceptions which may be made by the Agricultural Wages Board for employment of any special character."

My right hon. Friend desires to add to that,

"and so as to vary according as the employment is for a day, week, month, or other period, or according to the number of working hours or the conditions of the employment, or so as to provide for a differential rate in the case of overtime."

I cannot help thinking that my right hon. Friend in his Amendment has gone a very great way to meet what is desired by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Leicester.

I hope, from what the Attorney-General has just said, that he does not assume that the various Amendments down have all the same effect, or quite the same effect? Some of us are anxious to move Amendments which will endeavour to secure the discouragement of casual employment. That is quite a different topic—a more difficult question.

I should like to ask one or two questions about this Amendment. from the point of view of order. May I ask the Deputy-Chairman, if this Amendment of the President's is carried, will that preclude a Member moving an Amendment to secure a definite number of hours per week, or to give the Wages Board directions to settle the particular number of hours? This is very important. Some of us would like to know whether we shall have the opportunity of moving an Amendment to say that there shall be a forty-eight hours or a fifty-four hours week. Shall we be precluded from doing so if the President's Amendment is accepted?

Would the hon. Member kindly restate his point? I did not quite follow him for the moment.

What I was asking was this: If either the Amendment which is now before the Committee, or the Amendment which is proposed by the President of the Board of Agriculture later, is accepted, and put in the Bill, will that preclude several other Amendments which are on the Paper from being put forward? For instance, there is one about piece work, about the fixing of a minimum wage, and also one as to whether a definite number of hours per week should be inserted in the Bill, or whether a direction on the subject should be given to the Wages Boards.

The hon. Member is referring to an Amendment of his own on the next page?

I think that Amendment ought not to be there. It is in the wrong place. It should be moved as a new Clause. The points in it might be discussed when we get to the President's Amendment. I do not think that the hon. Member or other hon. Members will find that these points are shut out. They can all be discussed on the Amendment of the President.

In view of what has been said, I think the most convenient thing for me to do is to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment. We can raise the point when we come to the Amendment of the President of the Board of Agriculture.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I am not quite satisfied that the point to which I referred is raised in the Amendment of the President of the Board of Agriculture. I do not know that it is technically laid down that, by direction of the Wages Board, the working hours per week for which such minimum are to be paid are to go into the Bill.

If the hon. Gentleman wishes to move the Amendment he has down, I will not stop him. I cannot stop him. But I understood that the hon. Member for Leicester withdrew his Amendment on the understanding that the point was covered by the Amendment of the President. Certainly, the point which the hon. Member now wishes to put forward was by inference indicated in the Amendment of the hon. Member for Leicester. I understood that it was the desire of the Committee, and, indeed, the intention bf the hon. Member himself, to raise that point when we come to the Amendment of the President. Still, if he wishes to move his Amendment, he can do so.

I beg to move, in Subsection (2), after the word "time-work" ["employed in agriculture for time-work"], to insert the words "and in fixing such minimum rates shall secure that the rates fixed for workmen casually employed shall be proportionately higher than the corresponding rates fixed for other workmen." Although I handed these words in, they do not appear upon the Paper. These words are addressed to a single point, but I think that point is an important one. They are designed to secure in fixing the minimum time rates for agricultural labourers there shall be a discouragement to the employment of casual labour.

There are, no doubt, cases in which casual labour is quite correctly employed. For instance, there is the employment at certain times of the year, and in certain circumstances, of the small holder. It is most desirable that the small holder should be able to add to his livelihood in running his small holding by taking, it may be, casual employment from the neighbouring farmer, and for one small holder to help another small holder. I shall propose in the Definition Clause to make it plain that by "workmen casually employed" is meant workmen employed for a period of less than a week, but not including small holders. I suggest that is not open to the objection—the force of which I fully recognise—which was taken by the Attorney-General to a more general Amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester. Here we are dealing with a specific point, namely, that if you are going to fix a statutory minimum wage, it is desirable that you should at the same time, as far as possible, discourage the further casualisation of labour, and if you do not do that by some proposal of this sort, it appears to me that there is a very definite danger of the main object of this part of the Bill being defeated. The Committee will observe that I do not suggest how much higher the rate should be, because that must be, I think, a matter of discretion for the Agricultural Wages Board. It may be very little, but I submit it is desirable that we should, on the face of the Statute, indicate to the Agricultural Wages Board the view of Parliament, and I think the view of very large bodies of persons, that if you are fixing rates of wages you should fix them so as not to encourage, but to discourage, the employment of the casual workmen. The Committee will see that if that is not done, it would even be possible to a large extent to defeat or to hamper the working of this part of the Bill.

On a point of Order. Sub-section (3) of Clause 5 appears to deal with this point. It says:

"Any such minimum rates may be fixed so as to apply universally to workmen employed in agriculture, or to any special class of workmen in agriculture, or to any special area, subject in each case to any exceptions which may be made by the Agricultural Wages Board for employment of any special character."

I quite recognise that my hon. and gallant Friend might well interpose, because he has not seen the actual form of the Amendment I have put. I have not, however, succeeded in conveying to him by word of mouth what it is or he would be the first to see the difference between saying that the Agricultural Wages Board shall do things and that it may have certain discretion. The proposal I am making is that the Agricultural Wages Board, so far as time-work is concerned not only shall fix minimum rates of wages for workmen employed in agriculture, but shall, in fixing those rates, fix rates for casual workmen which shall be proportionately higher. That, of course, is not the same thing at all as Sub-section (3). I am very sorry I have not put this Amendment on the Paper, because I rather thought the proposal might be made from the Government Bench. It is a matter in which many of us take great interest, and I hope very much my right hon. Friend will be able to concede this, and will not tell us that the whole of this must be left at large for the Agricultural Wages Board. Simply to say to a committee of farmers and a committee of laymen that the whole thing is left to them to decide is not the same-thing as putting upon the face of the Bill the definite provision that casual labour-ought to be discouraged rather than encouraged.

If I understand the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment correctly, I do earnestly hope the President of the Board of Agriculture will not accept it, because, in the first place, it would prevent many a man from seeking casual employment. For instance, the old age pensioner who wants to add 10s. or 15s. a week to his pension would be prevented from getting occasional work from the farmer, because, if I understand the Amendment rightly, it will mean that the farmer cannot employ that man unless he pays him proportionately higher wages than he does his able-bodied regular employés.

The hon. Gentleman has misunderstood. I have assumed that he would have in mind the proposal of the Government which is on the Paper, providing that, so far as regular workmen who suffer from mental or other infirmity or physical injury are concerned, those standards are not to apply. He must assume the case of an able-bodied man who is exactly in the same position as any other able-bodied man, and I say that if he is casually employed there ought to be some small penalty.

I am sorry I rather misinterpreted the Amendment, but even now I should oppose it, because it would simply mean that you would give a casual man called in to help better wages than you would give to a regular man upon whom you are constantly depending. That is unfair and unjust to the regular man. I do hope we shall give the Wages Board some degree of elasticity to deal with these questions in a just, an equitable and a common-sense way, otherwise we shall shut out from useful employment many a man not quite able-bodied who values greatly the opportunity to add to his income by casual labour given to a farmer. He benefits himself, he benefits the farmer, and he contributes to the great object we have in view by this Bill, namely, the increase of the food supply of the country. The scarcity of labour on the land at the present moment is a very serious thing indeed, and is hampering farmers tremendously in the object we have in view. If you have the restrictions suggested by the right hon. Gentleman, I venture to say you will add to the farmers' difficulties, and to that extent reduce the food supply of the country. I do appeal to the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Agriculture not to accept the Amendment. We as farmers intend to act loyally and carry out the Bill in a liberal spirit, but do not let us have the haggling terms suggested by the Amendment. We shall have trouble enough to get on with the Wages Board. I hope we shall work in a spirit of cordial co-operation, but let this be left to the Board, and not have restrictions such as those suggested by the right hon. Gentleman.

This Amendment, of course, suffers, like all Amendments that are handed in without being before the Committee, from the possibility of being misunderstood. But as I have the advantage of having the Amendment before me, I cannot claim any such chance of misunderstanding the Amendment. I think I do understand it, and it is admittedly a matter which is already provided for in the Bill, but, as I understand the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment, he wishes to make it a direction to the Wages Board, and not to leave it, as we leave it, within their power. We considered this case of casual employment, and we thought it would be best dealt with by the Wages Board themselves. There is obvious advantage and there is obvious disadvantage. In the first place, it tends to discourage a farmer from relying on casual labour. That is all very good, and, so far as it goes, I should cordially support it; but, on the other hand, if you give a casual labourer higher wages than you give to the man who is permanently employed you encourage casual labour, which is the very thing the right hon. Gentleman and I want not to do. We want to prevent casual labour spreading, and I think, considering that you may encourage casual labour by paying it higher than you do permanent labour, it is one of those questions that had better be left to the experience and intimate knowledge of the Wages Board.

Before this matter is disposed of I should like to reinforce the appeal that has been made to the President of the Board of Agriculture. May I remind him of a fact which I dare say he remembers, but which I am not certain the whole Committee does, that the Report of Lord Selborne's Agricultural Policy Sub-committee did lay stress on this point, and suggested that in any legislation in this matter the possibility of increasing casual labour should be regarded. This is what the Committee said:

"It has been asserted that the result of the enactment of a minimum weekly wage for agriculture may be that farmers will object to pay the minimum wage during the winter months and during spells of bad weather, and on this account will reduce their permanent staffs and rely more than they do at present on securing occasional employees during the busy seasons. We consider that any such result would be exceedingly harmful to agriculture and to the nation generally, and that the Agricultural Departments should be instructed to watch carefully the working of the statutory rates, and do everything in their power to check any tendency to such a practice."

But what does the Bill do? It does not do anything. It leaves the matter entirely to the Wages Board. I am rather inclined to think that the Wages Board may not be very active in this matter. I do not know what other proposals the President of the Board of Agriculture may have. Would he consider the possibility of taking agriculture on by a special order under Part II. of the National Insurance Act, and making some arrangements for the return of premiums? I should think some provision ought to be made, and I should have thought that some differential rate for the man casually employed would be much the best and most effective safeguard against this evil, which is, I think, a very real one. I hope, therefore, the President has not said his last word, but may propose something, if not now, at all events, at a later date.

I am not quite sure what is an able-bodied man, and the definition given on that point is very doubtful. I quite agree with my hon. Friend that the adoption of this Amendment would be an extremely bad thing. First of all, the reason given by the right ion. Gentleman is, to my mind, conclusive that you do not want to encourage casual labour, and if you pay casual labour higher than ordinary labour you will be encouraging it. At the present moment I know for a fact that during the last year, taking the wages which are being paid now in the particular county I have in mind, there were men doing casual work who earned from their point of view quite enough in four days to enable them to do nothing on the remaining two days, and at a time when work was really required and necessary you could not get the men because they had earned as much as they wanted in four days and they would not work on the remaining two days. Are you going to perpetuate that by paying the casual labourer a higher sum than you pay ordinary workmen? The Amendment was introduced by a right hon. Gentleman who at one time was Attorney-General, and perhaps he will explain what he means by "wages which are to exceed proportionately the ordinary wage." Perhaps if I had had an education in the law I should have understood what "proportionately" means. May I point out, however, that this Bill has to be understood by farmers and labourers, and we want it extremely clear? Perhaps the hon. and learned Member would inform me what he considers is the meaning of the word "proportionately." If a labourer is getting 25s. a week, and a casual labourer is employed for two days, what is the proportion in excess of 4s. 2d., which is one-sixth of 25s., which he would pay to that labourer?

While the Committee will be in full agreement with the intention of my right hon. Friend, I very much fear that this is one of those numerous illustrations of the extraordinary difficulty of giving statutory expression to a most desirable end without very seriously counterbalancing the dangers and risks. There is one aspect of this matter which has not been alluded to. There are many farmers who engage at certain periods of the year, particularly during the hay and corn harvest, special temporary and casual help. Suppose by this Bill we require that the farmer who employs two extra hands, say for haymaking, shall pay them some sum as a day's wage over and above the customary rate of wage paid to his permanent hands. Does the Committee realise the danger there would be immediately of creating industrial dis- turbances? I think that is the way to precipitate a strike at a critical time in the farming industry. While I am anxious to achieve the object which my right hon. Friend aims at, I am afraid the dangers which will arise are much greater than the benefits he wishes to achieve. I have myself reached the conclusion that while it may be possible by statutory provision to discourage the employment of casual labour in ordinary industries, I am baffled and perplexed as to how this can be achieved in regard to such an exceptional industry as agriculture.

I hope the Government will seriously consider this question. Much as we all desire to discourage casual labour, we know that it comes largely within the range of a farmer's employment. In Kent especially we have large fruit and hop-picking industries, and it would be fatal, in my opinion, if you gave a mandatory notice to the Wages Board that they were in all cases to pay those who come in for these special occasions higher wages than is paid to the regular hands. Large farmers employ great numbers of women regularly during the year, and they have also to employ a great deal of casual labour for the special seasons, and it would create that very industrial unrest which you wish to avoid if you were to establish a principle that you should always pay casual labourers higher wages than the regular hands on a farm. The design of this Amendment is to include every class of labourer—boys, girls, women, or men—and that there should be in each case a higher rate for casual labour. If you want to discourage casual labour you should give the permanent hands an advantage over casual labour.

Suppose a labourer had a dispute with a farmer, the result of which is that he leaves that farmer's employment or gets the sack, suppose that labourer is taken on by another farmer in the neighbourhood, casually, while he is looking for permanent employment somewhere else. The farmer says, "I will take you on, but I am not going to pay you any more than anybody else." If this Amendment were passed, the farmer would have to say, "I cannot take you on, because I should have to pay you more than I am paying my own labourers, and I will not do that." That is distinctly against the labourer's interest, because it prevents him getting work when he has had a dispute with his previous employer.

I do not think the argument which has been just used by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Prestwich strengthens the Government case in resisting this particular Amendment. It is quite a common practice just now with people who employ anyone for an hour or a day, and do not employ them constantly, to pay a higher rate, and they ought to be paid a higher rate because they are only casual workers.' The same is true of day labourers, and it is true in Ireland. If men are only working for a day they are paid upon a higher rate than if they were constantly employed, and that is the only principle that is put forward by this Amendment. There will be a temptation on the part of less scrupulous farmers—and there are one or two of them—seeing that the Bill is based upon the principle of being paid at the rate of so much a week, to casualise part of their labour and increase the number of casual labourers, and instead of employing men for a week they will employ them for two or three days at the rate of so much per week. I think the Government ought to do everything in its power to prevent casual labour increasing so far as agricultural labour is concerned. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) said that this Amendment would have the effect of inducing men to get as much as they could in four days in order that they might go idle for the remaining two days of the week. Does anybody believe that that is the intention or the result of this Amendment? I know that if men can earn as much in one day as in two days they would prefer to work one day, but I think there should be sufficient difference to discourage the farmer from employing casual labour and to encourage him to employ workers constantly from week to week and month to month or for six months. The right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London said he did not know what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon) meant by the word "proportionate." I agree that it is rather a vague term, and, as the right hon. Baronet said, this Bill will have to be interpreted by farmers and labourers, and I can assure him that there are a great many other points in the Bill which will be just as difficult to interpret as this particular word.

Yes, I would be very glad to get a better word. I think if the farmer has to pay something extra for casual labour it will be a discouragement to him to employ it, and that would be a good thing.

This Amendment has been put forward in the interests of casual labour. I have spoken to the representatives of the Agricultural Labourers' Union, and that union would be strongly opposed to this Amendment. I think the Committee ought to know that fact. The reason undoubtedly is that much as one is tempted to desire some means of ensuring continuity of employment as against casual employment, I do not believe this Amendment will achieve that result. Take seasonal labour employed at higher rates than the regular wage. A farmer would find that all his regular men would resent it extremely to such an extent that it would make the working of the system impossible.

May I say that the point that is really involved is that whatever may be the merits of enacting a statutory minimum wage, one of the effects of it may Be to encourage further casual labour. It is no argument to say that in the past people would object to casual labour being paid at a different rate, because then there was no statutory fixed rate. Once you fix a statutory rate you put a temptation in the way of an employer to say to a bad worker, I am not going to employ you by the week, but at the rate fixed by the hour, and unless you do something to prevent that, it appears to me that the consequence may be something very different to what the Agricultural Labourers' Union seem to contemplate. I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Amendment of the hon. Member for Stafford (Sir W. Essex)—[at the end of Sub-section (2) to insert the words "Any workman declared by them to be other than able-bodied shall have a fixed minimum wage which shall not be less than twenty-five per cent. greater than that he has received on a weekly average of the preceding twelve months"]—is in the wrong place. The Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snow-den)—[in Sub-section (2) at the end to insert the words "And shall fix rates of overtime equal to not less than one and a-quarter times the minimum rate for week days and to not less than one and a-half times the minimum rate for work on Sunday, and may also fix a scale of deductions from such rates to be made in respect of workmen who are not able-bodied, or may empower such deductions to be assessed in each case by the district wages committee of the Agricultural Wages Board"]—I think is also in the wrong place. He is proposing an elaboration of Sub-section (6) of this Clause Sub-section (6) gives mandatory instructions to the Wages Board with regard to rates for overtime, and the hon. Member's Amendment seems to me to apply better to that Sub-section than to Subsection (2).

Would it not come in as an Amendment to the Amendment the Government propose to move at the end of Sub-section (3)? They propose there to deal with the question of varying the rates of wages, with the condition of employment, and so on, and I would suggest that my Amendment would appropriately come there.

Would it not be out of place in the Sub-section, because that only gives the Board discretion, whereas the Amendment is mandatory.

The hon. Member for Blackburn perhaps will choose between the two places, namely, Sub-section (6), which is mandatory, and the Government Amendment, to which we are just coming, which is optional. The Amendment of the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Wardle)—[at the end of Sub-section (2) to insert the words, "And where a workman is employed on piecework for which no minimum rate of wages has been fixed, the employer shall be deemed to pay wages at less than the minimum rate unless he shows that the piece rate of wages paid would yield in the circumstances of the case to an ordinary worker at least the same amount of money as the minimum time rates."]—is also in the wrong place. I think it ought to have been moved on the preceding Clause.

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (3) to insert the words, "and so as to vary according as the employment is for a day, week, month, or other period, or according to the number of working hours or the conditions of the-employment, or so as to provide for a differential rate in the case of overtime."

This is an attempt to meet a number of Amendments, all of them dealing with points of substance. The rates of wages can be varied according to whether the employment is for a day, for a week, for a month, or for any other period. We meant, if we could, to deal with the question of casual employment. Of course, everybody knows that in some-parts of the country there is the pernicious custom of a man standing off in wet and frosty weather. He presents himself at the farm, but he is told that he may-go back, and he gets no pay for that day. He is employed by the week, but custom-introduces into the term this unfortunate-and pernicious practice of standing down. We can, I think, best deal with that by fixing the rate of wages for a week, so that the man shall not stand down, or, if he does stand down, that he shall be paid at such a rate for the days on which he works as will make up his weekly wage to what it would have been if he had not stood down. Then there is the number of working hours. That is an Amendment which is meant to cover the working hours for a weekly wage. We put it in here, and we ask the House to say that the best way of dealing with such a question as working hours, which vary very much in different parts of the country, is to let the employer and the employed settle it. If the House were here to decide that the working hours for a week were to be, say, fifty-four for the summer and forty-eight for the winter, or whatever you like, it would be taking upon ourselves a responsibility which we are not competent to perform.

I would therefore ask that we should leave that very important question of the hours to the Wages Board to provide for a differential rate in the case of overtime. None of the Amendments put forward quite deal with the case, because, obviously, until science invents a cow that does not want to be milked on a Sunday, some employment for certain purposes must be for seven days in the week. The same applies to the case of the shepherd. A shepherd has very often to be up all hours of the night. Of course, he is differently paid from other men, but there overtime is a condition of his employment, and I submit it is best dealt with by those who are practically acquainted with the case. Stockmen and milkers and all who require special treatment cannot be brought under any general rule or Amendment. For instance, the Amendment which has been moved, and which in some ways is quite a good one, providing that the man who stood off shall be paid his wages if he is absent owing to weather conditions, or from any other cause beyond his control, obviously would not do, because a man might be ill for months. That would be beyond his control, but it would not be a case of standing off on a par with standing off for frosty or wet weather. On every ground, the best way of dealing with all these questions is to see that the Wages Board have directed power, and to take care, as far as we can by regulation and pressure, to see that the directions are acted upon.

On a point of Order. I would like to ask whether this is the right place to introduce words to give the Wages Board power to settle the number of hours per week? I do not think this Amendment covers the matter, and I want to know whether this is the point at which it can be dealt with, because I should like to move an Amendment to the Government Amendment?

The other two places where it might come in are at the end of Sub-section (6) in Clause 8. Clause 8 gives the Board of Agriculture power to make Regulations fixing what constitutes the regular week and overtime. I suggest that is the most convenient place for dealing with the matter.

I am in some difficulty with a number of these Amendments as to whether Members are desiring to impose, as from Parliament, a statutory minimum with regard to overtime, and so on, or whether they are wishing to direct the Wages Board to have consideration for these points. The present Amendment is of the latter character. If the hon. Member's Amendment is a statutory con- dition, then I think Sub-section (6) of the present Clause or Clause 11 are the two places where the point can be brought up.

I shall not be precluded from moving it later on as a statutory provision or as a direction to the Wages Board if it does not come in here? I want to be quite clear as to the proper place to move it.

No; there will be those two subsequent occasion for doing it. Perhaps the hon. Member will look at Sub-section (6).

This is the Amendment which is to cover the ground of an Amendment I moved earlier and to do one or two other things. On a little more careful consideration of it I think it does cover the ground, but it does so in respect of one provision in a somewhat suspicious manner. It reads:

"Employment is for a day, week, month, or other period."

7.0 P.M.

It seems to classify day wages, weekly wages, and monthly wages on precisely the same footing. I come from a part of the country where casual labour hardly exists. I can well understand, if this House were to fix a minimum wage which was regarded in certain districts as being a very substantial increase on the existing wages, there would be a great temptation to casualise labour. We have had it instanced quite recently in our experience of the employment of soldiers as substitutes. The right hon. Gentleman, in moving his Amendment, referred to parts of the country where there is the very obnoxious practice of deducting a man's pay at the end of the week if a day has been too wet or too frosty for him to do his ordinary work. He is, as a matter of fact, a casual labourer, but it has been customary if he is off one day of the week for him to get his week's pay minus one day. In some of these districts, within recent months, soldiers have been employed, and I am told by friends who know that there has been a wonderful change come over those districts. The farmer has discovered that whether he sends the soldier home or not, he has to pay his weekly wage, and the result is that he has discovered the very simple plan of giving the soldier something to do in the way of ordinary occupation on farm duties. If the day is wet or dry, the farmer, being compelled to pay his weekly wages, will discover labour for his workmen, whereas when he was able to take advantage of this particular obnoxious custom of deducting the day's wages, the labourer turned up at the farm and was told to go home. I know that on the farms of which I have had experience we never had any trouble whatever about wet or frosty weather. When we could not get out into the fields we were turned to some other useful work that could be done. It does not amount to more than a suspicion, but I wish the Government would reconsider this. I think it will be necessary for them to put day labour on a somewhat different footing from weekly and certainly monthly labour. Otherwise, judging by the ordinary experience we have had, there will be a temptation, more particularly in those districts to which I have referred, to casualise labour which is now partly casualised, but which will become completely casualised if the temptation is put before the farmers of having to pay a weekly wage which is substantially higher than the present wage.

Before these words are passed, I should like to say one word about the principle of this Amendment. There have been several points of Order raised which were not really points of Order so much as a real difference in the Committee between the view of the Government and the view of some of those who have been suggesting Amendments. The Government has obviously made up its mind that it wishes to leave all these points to the Wages Board.

I do not know whether my hon. Friends who are making these suggestions and who have further suggestions to make will receive any satisfaction whatever. Judging from the indications we have had up to date, I do not be lieve there will be any satisfaction whatever. The Government undoubtedly means to leave it entirely to the Wages Board I understand the differences of custom, and I also understand the difficulty in which the House of Commons is placed in making suggestions or laying down cast-iron regulations here which might have results not entirely understood or expected. There is a great deal to be said for the point of view of those who wish to see some few statutory safeguards introduced. The Government wishes to leave everything to the discretion of the Wages Board. What we should like to have seen, on a few limited points, would have been some statutory safeguards against abuse. We are not going to get that, and I must frankly confess my scepticism that I have not that faith in the Wages Board which the Government apparently has. One knows how the countryside is dominated by farmers. When on these Wages Boards you get the farmers face to face with the labourers and a few independent members, I do not for one moment believe that these questions are going to be settled except in the interest of the farmers. Therefore, I believe the only thing of real value will be the statutory wage, because there the Government, deserting their general principle of leaving everything to the Wages Board, have introduced one statutory safeguard. That, I believe, will be of value, but the rest will be determined either according to that normal custom and that tradition which dies so hard in the country or according to the interests of the party which is far the strongest when it comes to a tug-of-war on the board.

I think the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken is too pessimistic in the view he takes of the future. It is quite true—there has been no attempt to conceal the fact from the Committee—that the Government have taken the view that, on the whole, they are acting wisely and prudently in placing the greater part of the responsibility for this detailed action upon the Wages Board. We are following a precedent which is well within the knowledge of the Committee in doing so. We may be right or we may be wrong, but we believe that by creating these Wages Boards and by trusting them with great responsibilities, we shall do more to bring out and develop the independence and character of the rural population than by any other step we could possibly take. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. E. Macdonald) who moved an Amendment some time ago, and who was good enough to postpone it in order that it might be discussed side by side with that of my right hon. Friend, told us that in substance the Amendment does meet his point. I cannot help thinking that it meets it very fully indeed, but my hon. Friend says that he has a little doubt upon one point, namely, as to whether there ought not to be some difference of expression in the drafting in dealing with the daily, weekly, or monthly employment. As we are substantially at one, and are willing to help to remove any apprehensions he has upon that point, I suggest that the phraseology should stand over at this point of the Bill, and that he should discuss the matter with my right hon. Friend and the draftsman.

May I ask the President one question? I may have misunderstood him, but I understood him, when he was talking about men standing down owing to weather, to say something about illness. Do I understand that under the Bill as it is now that, in the event of a man not being able to come to work on account of illness, wages will have to be paid?

I wish to ask the President a question. As I understand it, he is anxious here to discourage the practice which prevails in certain parts of the country of farmers turning away men who come to work on wet or frosty days and sending them back and thereby saving money. I understand that he proposes to meet that by suggesting to the Wages Board that they should fix a higher rate for a day wage than for a weekly wage, so that it a farmer should so act he will have to pay a proportionately higher wage, say, for the four days than he would for six?

It is not quite that. What we thought was that if a weekly wage had this standing-down custom attached to it, that that weekly wage should be higher than the weekly wage which has not got that custom attached to it.

What is to happen in cases, which sometimes occur, when it is the man who stays away for a day or two, for good or ill reasons?

I find myself in some considerable difficulty with regard to this particular Amendment. I quite understand that if the Committee desires to give statutory conditions it must put them in the Bill, and that if it desires to give directions to the Wages Board as to their powers it must put them in the Bill.

If we put in this particular Amendment at this point, we do actually say what the Wages Board may do. Therefore if we attempt to put stipulations upon the Wages Board in Clause 8 afterwards, that would conflict with what we should have already done by inserting these words in this particular place. May I say a word or two on the substance of the Amendment? The point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester (Mr. R. Macdonald) in regard to standing-off is a point which we desired to make it a condition that the Wages Board should consider. We do not want to make it a Statutory condition, but a mandate from the House to the Wages Board that they should consider it as a part of their policy. Whether that is covered by this Amendment it is very difficult to say. I should like to know from the President whether he does consider that under this Clause it is within the competence of the Wages Board to determine that in regard to what is called "standing off" the week's wage shall be a guaranteed weekly wage or not? May I, on that question, put this point to you, Sir? Yesterday you suggested to me that I should postpone two Amendments of mine which were on the Paper. One of them appears on the Paper to-day, but the other has disappeared. It raises this very point, which I call a guaranteed week's wage. I realise that there are large numbers of men who have to stand off at various times owing to weather conditions, who are paid their week's wages.. It is part of the undertaking that they shall be paid a standing wage for the week. I wanted to raise that point somewhere in this Bill, in order that we should give directions to the Wages Board that they should also consider the question of the guaranteed week's wage, instead of the men having to stand off and having deductions made from their wages for wet days. I really do not know what I am to do if these words are allowed to go in here. If the instructions to the Wages Board are already inserted, and if they do not cover all these points, shall we be allowed to raise them later?

So far as the Chair is concerned, that seems to be the very point that is raised and is intended to be raised by the Amendment now before the Committee. Whether or not the words are adequate, it is not for me to say, but I think this is the identical point, that, in fixing the rate of wages they may have-regard to the possibility of what the hon. Member calls "standing off" days in the week owing to the weather, and that that should be one of the elements on which they should fix the minimum rate.

That does not meet the point I want to put somewhere in the Bill that not only shall they consider it in fixing wages, but that the Wages Board shall have the power to determine whether a wage covered the week, whether the week should be one of forty-eight hours or of fifty-four hours, or the other conditions of employment attached to the wage, as well as the wage itself. Unless the right hon. Gentleman can give me an assurance that these words do cover the point or that he will consider it on Report and introduce some words which do cover it, I am afraid we shall have to raise the question again.

These words were specifically introduced to meet the point which the hon. Member raised in his Amendment. The Amendment was that the minimum rate of wages should be paid without deduction in respect of time lost upon work due to weather or other conditions not within his control. Those words could not be accepted, because a man might be ill, and that would be outside his control, and yet would be an exception to what the hon. Member proposed. We are advised that those words cover that—they were put in for that purpose—but if we find on re-examination that there is any doubt whatever about it we will strengthen them.

I should like to ask the Attorney-General whether, in his opinion, he considers that the words which are now on the Paper not only give the Wages Board the power to fix wages according to the conditions under which a man works, but whether they allow the Wages Boards also to fix the conditions under which the wages are being earned?

I really think my right hon. Friend answered the question. If the hon. Member reads the words of my right hon. Friend's Amendment, "So as to vary according as the employment is for a day, week, month, or other period, or according to the number of working hours or the conditions of the employment." I am sure the object of my right hon. Friend in accepting that form of words from the draughtsman must have been to make them as wide as he possibly could. You cannot have wider words than that they shall vary according to the conditions of the employment. That covers everything.

The hon. Member was not asking whether we were giving peremptory instructions to the Wages Boards, but whether the permissive power given was sufficient to cover the cases. In. my judgment it is.

I am very much surprised to hear that expression of opinion from the Attorney-General. As I understood the case of the hon. Member (Mr. Wardle), it was—Can the Wages Boards say that in any area the farm labourer's employment shall be for eight hours a day? I imagine certainly they cannot. They can only say that the statutory wage, which is 25s., shall be in respect of an eight hours' day. If you employ a person more than that he shall be paid more. If you employ him less he might conceivably be paid less. That is what the Bill provides, and it seems to me what the Bill ought to provide. I do not quite see how the hon. Member could expect the Wages Board to control this employment except through the amount of wages paid.

That is precisely my point, that certain conciliation boards on railways and in other places do control. They say whether the week shall be forty-eight hours or fifty-four hours. I want to give the Wages Boards the power to decide whether the week shall be forty-eight or fifty-four hours, or whether, if the men stand off for wet days, they shall be paid for it or not, or whether they shall be paid for overtime. If it is not in the Bill and these words do not cover it I want an opportunity of raising it.

If a man is employed for 25s. a week and presents himself on Monday and works the day, on Tuesday he works, Wednesday it is a wet day and there is no work for him, on Thursday he works, and perhaps on Friday half a day, will he receive 25s. at the end of that week? When the President introduced this Amendment I thought it was covered. Then he made a second statement which I thought was doubtful. Then he made a third speech. I thought we were pretty safe then, but I want to know for certain if a man presents himself and is willing to work and is there to work, will he be paid the amount per week which he is promised?

I know the Attorney-General would not desire that there should be any misunderstanding. No one can explain more clearly or with more authority than he what is the effect of an Amendment. Surely the Amendment, while it gives a very wide range to the board, as a matter of fact it would not secure, nor, indeed, authorise, the Wages Board to say that so many hours are to be a week—that and no more.

If my hon. Friend reads his OFFICIAL REPORT, I am sure he will see that I said nothing of the sort.

I do not know in the circumstances that anything more can be done. It is very desirable that there should not be misunderstanding, and the Attorney-General agreed, I understand, that what is now proposed by the Government would not give the Agricultural Wages Board the right to say "the week in this country is to be so many hours and everything over that is to be overtime."

I want to be quite clear as to the point raised by my hon. Friend who spoke last but one. I do not suppose this does anything to prevent a man standing down. It only says that if a man stands down on certain days the Wages Board may fix a higher rate of pay. There is nothing in this Amendment to prevent the farmer saying, "I can only employ you on five days," only if he does say it the Wages Board in return says, "You must pay so much more," though how much more is not stated. My own position is that I think we are trusting these Wages Boards too much, and we ought to do something to strengthen the position of the labourer in the Bill itself and not leave everything in the hands of the Wages Board, although I do not myself see how it is to be done.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (3), to add the words,

"Provided that if the Agricultural Wages Board are satisfied that any workman employed or desiring to be employed on time work to which a minimum rate fixed by the Board is applicable is affected by any mental or other infirmity or physical injury which renders him incapable of earning that minimum rate the Board may grant to the workman, subject to such conditions, if any, as they prescribe a permit exempting the employment of the workman from the provisions of this Act requiring wages to be paid at not less than the minimum rate, and while the permit is in force an employer shall not be liable to any penalty for paying wages to the workman at a rate less than the minimum rate so long as any conditions prescribed by the board on the grant of the permit are complied with."

The object of the Amendment will be apparent. Some method must be devised for dealing with the case of men who, either by reason of mental or physical infirmity, are obviously not worth the minimum wage, and who therefore run the great risk, neither for their benefit nor for that of agriculture, of passing, perhaps permanently, into the class of the unemployed unless this provision is made for them. I hope it will not be a subject for controversy, but when the Trades Board Act of 1909 was passed, an Act to which both the then Government and the Labour party gave a good deal of attention, a Clause of this kind—Sub-section (3) of Section 6—was inserted. It is almost verbally the same. I have no knowledge of its working, but I am informed by those who have given attention to these matters that it has worked smoothly and satisfactorily.

Does this mean the Central Board only or does it give power to the local committees which are to be set up?

I do not rise to oppose the Amendment, but I am very much afraid it is an unworkable one and that it will be found to give rise to all kinds of difficulties. A question has been put by the hon. Member opposite which is fundamental and which must be answered, whether it will give power only to the Central Board or to all the local boards. It is manifest that if it gives power only to the Central Board it will be an absurdity. How could the Central Board, sitting in London, investigate thousands of cases in all parts of rural England who are supposed to be suffering physically or mentally? The thing is absurd. The words are rather vague: "If the Board is satisfied that a man employed or desiring to be employed on time work to which a minimum rate fixed by the Board is applicable is affected by any mental or other infirmity or physical injury which renders him incapable of earning that minimum wage." Who is to decide? The Board or the local committee must have some machinery to decide it. Will it be the local doctor? He is not, after all, a very competent man to decide whether a man is afflicted by some physical infirmity that prevents him from earning the wages. Is it to be the employer or is it to be the Board itself, and is it contemplated that each one of these men shall be called up and examined by the Board? I really cannot understand how you are going to arrive at a decision. Are they going to strip the man and examine him as they are examined in those strange sessions we read reports of in the Press before the Medical Board of the Army Council? Suppose the Attorney-General was sitting on a board, as he might be, and a farmer came in and said, "I have three labourers who are physically unfit to earn this wage," how would he apply himself to ascertain whether they were physically fit to earn the wage or not? Supposing the farmer said, "I have tested this man, and I see that he is not sufficiently muscular and not sufficiently skilled. He is slow, and he has some rheumatism or some of the various vague diseases which doctors are familiar with, and evidently is not qualified to earn the wage." How would the Attorney-General or any man in this House apply himself to ascertain whether that was true or not? How could he do it? I put aside the case of men who are manifestly cripples, or idiots. I take the case of a man who is not manifestly a cripple or an idiot, but who cannot earn the full wages because he is physically or mentally unfit. By what test will you ascertain the extent of his unfitness? The number of physically unfits in the country will be enormous, and they will vary according to the circumstances of the different districts. If I were put on a board, and called upon to arrive at a decision as to whether or not a labourer was physically fit to earn his wages, I should be wholly unable to say how I should set about to tackle the problem. Therefore, although I am not going to oppose the Amendment, it appears to me to be a most unwarrantable one.

The object of this provision is perhaps easily explained by the Attorney-General, but the administration of it has been proved to be utterly impossible by the hon. Member (Mr. Dillon). It is a most extraordinary thing. I do not know whether a doctor is to be called in to settle the point of a man's fitness. It seems to me impossible for the Wages Board and the local committees to decide if a man is mentally or otherwise defective. I suppose they are to sit there as a kind of petty commissioners in lunacy or as an amateur medical board or a combination of the two. Who on earth is going before them? I suppose the man can only get his permit by applying for it or having it applied for on his behalf by somebody else. Is the farmer to do that kind of thing? When he makes his application, what would be his ground of application? He would have to say, "Here is a man whom I should like to employ, but he is mentally defective, or defective in some of his limbs." Do you think that any farmer is going to do that? You will not find one who will do it. If the farmer will not do it, is the poor man himself to go there and make the confession before his fellows, "I am mentally deficient or physically infirm, and I cannot get work unless you give me a permit." Is it to be supposed that the man is going to do that sort of thing? I do not believe for a moment that he will. I believe that a working man would rather take refuge in the Poor Law. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] Yes, I do believe that he would take refuge in the Poor Law rather than go before a committee of his fellows and confess that he is physically or mentally unfit. How can that man obtain work? Supposing he does not get his permit, and he applies to the farmer for work. He is able to do certain classes of work which are badly wanted on the farm, such as weeding corn or sorting potatoes. The farmer would say, "I should be glad to employ you, but you are not worth the rate of wages that has been fixed. Where is your permit?" The man would have to reply, "I have not got one." Then the farmer would say, "If I employ you I should be a criminal. I cannot employ you." I admit at once that I am totally opposed to Part II. as a whole. If the scheme requires bolstering up by a provision of this kind, it is really condemned on the face of it, and I should like to hear what is the opinion of hon. Members whose special work here is to represent the interests of labour, as to a provision of this kind, which makes such demands upon men before they can get work.

The hon. Member who has just sat down ends his speech by saying that he was opposed to the whole of this part of the Bill. If one takes up that position of course one can understand his opposition, but we are discussing this on the assumption that not only this part of the Bill stands, but that this Clause stands, and I think it is plain that if the Clause stands, and if you provide that Agricultural Wages Boards shall fix rates of wages you must have some provision for the cases of persons who want to be employed, but who suffer from physical and it may be other disabilities. These cases in the country are common enough, and it would be a most lamentable result of our legislation if it were impossible to them to be employed, because no provision was made for their proper remuneration. Though I think I agree with the hon. Member for Mayo in this respect, that one looks at this proviso with some anxiety, because it seems to be rather a difficult proviso to work, still we must have a proviso, and so far as I have gone into the matter I think the Government proposal is fair, to be defended on the ground that it goes on the lines which experience has shown to be feasible under the Trade Boards Act. The Trades "Board Act contains, I think, words almost exactly similar to these. The Schedule which arranges for there being district Wages Committees all over the country, includes a provision of this sort. The Agricultural Wages Board, the central body, can delegate to these local committees such duties as are thought proper, and this, of course, will be one of them. That is machinery. Whether the machinery is at the moment quite right for it I am not so sure. I think you want to consider whether you will not make a specific provision for the Local Wages Committee to deal with this case, which is not a case where you want to refer things to them and for them to report back to you. I dare say that will be all right. I would point out that there are precedents for this particular provision in this country under the Trade Boards Act affecting a great number of industries, and there is also, I think, the precedent of the Australasian law which gives an exactly similar provision for exempting from the strict application of a scale of wages those who are thought to be for physical or other reasons disqualified. Though this matter is rather difficult, something must be done, and I think it is only fair to say that the way in which the Government propose to do it, so far as I can see, is the best way under the circumstances.

So far as I can see, the suggestion which the Government have made is right, and I think some of the difficulties that were advanced by the hon. Member for Mayo are got over by the way in which this Clause is worked in connection with the Trade Boards Act. I would ask the Attorney-General to consider whether it may not be the right thing to make a suggestion as to the percentage of the number of disabled men who are allowed on any farm, In ordinary industry, I believe that when the wage is fixed there is always a certain percentage allowed of those who get a wage lower than the wage fixed, and to provide for those who are physically unfit. I suppose that the same plan will operate in connection with the agricultural boards, and I think it is clear that it will be very unwise to have a large percentage of unfit men on any farm. If anything like that is done it might be said that it was an attempt to get cheap labour. Possibly this is all the more important when you remember the large number of disabled soldiers there will be in the country, and care must be taken to see that these men are not hardly used by the farmers. I think the real difficulty in regard to this question will be got over by the agricultural boards adopting the same method as the trade boards do at the present time of allowing a margin. I hope the Government will be careful to see that the margin is not too high, and that they will consider whether it may not be well to regulate the percentage of disabled men who are allowed on any farm.

I want to add a word as to what was said by my right hon. Friend (Sir J. Simon) in regard to the system of district committees. Under the Schedule of the Bill the board can delegate any of its powers to district committees, and this power would be one which can be so delegated. As an Amendment to Clause 8 the President of the Board of Agriculture has a proposal on the Paper that a district committee shall be enabled to delegate its powers to a sub-committee. That is exactly what is wanted. In regard to the suggestion of the last speaker, I agree that it is a matter that deserves consideration, but I doubt whether it is necessary in agriculture, as it is in the indoor industries like the cardboard box trade, or the chain trade, 'or so on, because agriculture itself imposes a limit to the number of men incapacitated who can be employed. So many occupations in agriculture require full bodily strength, therefore, I doubt whether the suggestion of the hon. Member is really necessary.

I do not think there is going to be much difficulty about this matter, because you have machinery set up already to deal with similar questions. At the present time there are probably twenty different committees in various parts of the country dealing with disabled soldiers who are now being employed in factories and workshops. If an employer of labour comes along and wants to employ a discharged soldier and offers him 25s. a week, and the wage for the job on which he is engaged is 30s., the soldier is in a position to appeal to the local committee, upon which there are employers and workmen, and after hearing the evidence of the man and the evidence of the employer, the committee decide whether the man is only worth 25s. or is entitled to 30s. It appears to me that in this matter, if you have a man who is a little defective or is not physically as strong as other men, an employer may say, "I will engage you at 20s. a week." The man says, "Very well, I will agree, although I think I am entitled to more." After the man has been working for a little time and he thinks that he is really entitled to 25s., surely, if he appeals to the Agricultural Board, the farmer will give evidence and the man will give evidence and it will be for the Board to decide whether the man should receive 20s. or 25s. There may be little difficulties from time to time, but I do not see any real difficulty in the way, because I think things will rectify themselves when the matters go before the Board for consideration.

I do not think there will be so much practical difficulty in the working of this Clause as appears, but I should like to ask the Attorney-General a question about it. We may take it from him that it is desirable to insert some provision to this effect for changing the classification of a man who has once been classified. That is what it comes to. In this Amendment, as I read it, provision is only made for the changing the classification downwards. I quite agree that under the Amendment if a man, having been able-bodied, is classified downwards for some physical infirmity and afterwards gets rid of that infirmity, the classification downwards will cease to operate, and he will come back into his former class. It does not seem to me that there is any special provision like that which has just been mentioned in which the man has originally been classified in a lower class because of some physical infirmity, and then, having got rid of that physical infirmity, desires to be put up into a higher class. As I read the Amendment as it stands, there is not a provision for that, and I venture to ask the Attorney-General whether, if that is not provided for, he will consider the advisability of providing for it?

It is a very reasonable point, but I think it really is provided for. The hon. and learned Member will see in the Amendment the words, "The Board may grant to the workmen, subject to such conditions, if any, as they prescribe."

I am afraid I have not made my point quite clear. I am taking this as a whole. I agree that if the man has been in a higher class and an application is then made for him to be put into a lower class, that may be done only for a specified time until he is fit to be put back into the higher class. In that case I agree this proviso applies. I am taking the case where a man has been in a lower class originally, and has never been in a higher class, and wants, and perhaps deserves, to be placed in a higher class. That is a distinct case.

Might I ask the Attorney-General whether he proposes to adhere to the definition of "able-bodied" that comes later on? If so, surely this definition ought to follow on exactly the same lines as the definition he has put down later. In this case age is left out, and that point is left doubtful. It does, therefore, vary the words, and we should have two definitions not quite on the same lines. In every case where this has been dealt with age has always been mentioned, and I think that it would be better if in this Amendment we should follow exactly the same definition as that put down later by the Government.

It may be necessary to have a proviso like this in the Bill. I am sorry it is thought necessary, but I notice that nearly every one of the speakers, instead of recognising that the Bill makes provision for a minimum wage, has seemed to assume that the wage is going to be made the maximum wage. In connection with this, I should like to point out that I think the whole onus is thrown on the workman to apply to the committee for the payment of a lower wage. I do not know of any big industry which would agree to accept a condition like this as one agreed to between themselves and the employer. I am sure they would not. A bricklayer's labourer would not accept the condition of this kind in what are called our working rules. That being so, I do hope the Attorney-General will, if he presses this Amendment, between now and Report, consider whether he cannot find words which express what is in his mind better than these words do. It seems to me that in times of depression there is a great temptation on the workmen to go and apply for work for a less wage simply with the object of getting employment and maintaining himself. If a man has a wife and family dependent on him and no work, at all we can quite understand it, provided he has some physical infirmity. I would not like to say that he would apply before he had met with that infirmity. At any rate, there will be a temptation when there is depression in trade to apply to the Wages Board. It must be made quite clear that the local committees dealing with these matters must have the right to decide whether a permit shall be granted or not. I do say that there is a great danger in leaving it open for a man to go and apply either to the local committee or to the central committee for permission to work for less than the minimum wage prescribed by the Bill, and therefore I am very doubtful whether this Amendment should be agreed to or not.

A good many of the difficulties which have been brought forward with regard to this proviso are difficulties incidental to a minimum wage and a Wages Board. If you have a minimum wage, as has been pointed out, it seems to me perfectly certain that you must have, if you are to avoid gross injustice, some sort of proviso of this kind. Let me give a very simple instance. We shall have a lot of soldiers and sailors more or less mutilated at the end of the War, many of whom will want to get employment on farms. I had one the other day who came to me, suffering from shock and only able to do very light work, asking to have employment on a farm. It is obvious that men like that, if a minimum wage is sufficient for a really able-bodied man, can only hope to get employment if it is possible to employ them at less than the minimum wage after they get a permit. With regard to the point of the hon. Member who has just spoken, I do not think it will be the man who will go to the Wages Board to get this permit; it will be the employer, because if he employs this man at less than the minimum wage without having first obtained a permit from the board, he will himself be liable to very heavy penalties. It will be to his interest to go before the board and to get a permit, and in these circumstances it seems to me very necessary to have this proviso.

I think there is considerable substance in the objection that has been raised to this proviso. It is very clear in this Amendment that the workman's right to the minimum wage will depend entirely upon his mental and physical ability to earn the wage, and that the board itself will have to be satisfied that he is mentally and physically fit to earn the wage. How is the board to be satisfied upon that point? The phraseology in this Amendment is very similar to that in the Trade Boards Act, and very similar, I may say, to that in the Workmen's Compensation Act of 1906. I want to say here that there is no Clause in the Workmen's Compensation Act of 1906 that has caused us more trouble, more difficulty, and more expense than this Clause. The very wording is similar in this case to what it is in that Act. The workman says that he is physically and mentally competent, and because of that he is entitled to the proper wage, to what is recognised as the ordinary wage. The employer says he is not competent. The workman is then given a doctor's certificate to say that he is competent, and the employer gets another doctor's certificate to say that he is not. Not content with the certificate of those two doctors, others are called in, and you have hundreds of thousands of cases where this point has arisen, and where very large sums of money have been spent by our association in obtaining what we consider is the right, so far as wages are concerned, of the man about whom the dispute arises. I do not know how the board is going to act in cases of dispute. I do not know what course it is going to take in order to obtain what, in its opinion, will be conclusive evidence as to the man's physical and mental fitness, and his right to the minimum wage, but if it is to be a question of medical evidence—and if it is not to be that, I do not know what it will be, in some cases, at any rate—then upon the man himself, or if he happens to belong to an association, upon that association, will be cast the obligation of paying large sums of money in order to obtain the necessary medical evidence to satisfy the board that this man is entitled to the wage.

There is no intention whatever in this proviso of enforcing a permit upon a workman against his will. The proviso does not contain any words having that effect. It can only be on the application of the workman, or someone applying on his behalf.

I am well aware of that, but, notwithstanding all that has just been said, it is very easy, and I am quite certain in my own mind that many cases will arise where the workman and the employer will differ in opinion, and where the board will have some difficulty in deciding as to whether the workman is entitled or not entitled to the minimum wage. I am going, let me say, on my own experience very largely, and my experience is very similar to that of all trade union officials. There is a great difficulty, and at the present moment I do not see how it is possible to leave this to the board, because it will be said that if it can be met in this case it can be met so far as the Workmen's Compensation Act is concerned, and be of great benefit.

I think I can only say what I have said already three times. I would venture to point out that we have spent almost an hour on this proposal, that every speaker familiar with the doctrine of the minimum wage has admitted, what is obviously the fact, that no system of a minimum wage can be applied without something of this kind, that no speaker has suggested an alternative form of words, that these words, have had the benefit of being tried for the period of nine years, that the House of Commons was responsible for them, and that it has never since that date decided against them. I hope we may now be able to come to a decision upon this point.

Amendment agreed to.

With regard to the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Leicester (Mr. R. Macdonald), in Sub-section (5), after the word "may" ["the Agricultural Wages Board may"], to insert—

On a point of Order. Should I not be in order in moving the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Baronet the Member for the City (Sir F. Banbury), to leave out Sub-section (5)?

May not it stand on its own merits? I am aware that it is one of a number of consequential Amendments, but may it not be a point independent of any Sub-section of the Clause? It is one on which I should certainly like to ask the Attorney-General to explain why this is inserted. Should I not be in order in moving it for that purpose?

I beg to move, to leave out Sub-section (5), in order to ask the Attorney-General whether, in fact, the powers given under this Sub-section to the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries to direct the Wages Board to alter, or vary, or cancel any minimum rate fixed by them, provide any object in setting up the Wages Board at all. There is an overriding authority; the Board of Agriculture can step in at any time and upset and negative what the Wages Board have decided. There is in this Bill a system of district wages committees for discussing and provisionally settling minimum wages, The Central Wages Board has a very wide authority, so as to make the wages that are fixed in the various districts fit in one with another and form a uniform whole. But, under this Sub-section, apparently, the Board of Agriculture has power to upset the whole of this. It seems to me that we might really almost as well leave it to the Board of Agriculture to settle the minimum wage, if they are to reconsider it at any moment and really, in fact, to decide the whole matter. I do not want to detain the Committee a moment longer than is necessary, but I do want to raise a protest against this Sub-section, which seems to me to vitiate the whole system and to render it more bureaucratic. I think a word of explanation why this extraordinary power is required to be retained by the Board of Agriculture should be given us.

I think my hon. Friend is not moving his own Amendment, but that of the hon. Baronet, the Member for the City of London. He says the powers of the Board of Agriculture are bureaucratic and that it is useless to set up Agricultural Wages Boards at all if these powers are left to the Board of Agriculture. I really cannot agree with him. Just see what these dangerous powers are which are given to the Board of Agriculture—

"The Agricultural Wages Board may, if they think it expedient, cancel or vary any minimum rate fixed by them, and shall reconsider any such minimum rate if the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries direct them to do so."

That is the sole power that is given to the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—to direct them to reconsider. They can direct, and that is a most proper power to be reserved to the responsible controlling authority. All they can say is, "We have certain information, local or otherwise, which leads us to think that it is a fair thing that this should be reconsidered." That is the extent of their power and authority. Does any sensible man think that that is bureaucracy? The hon. Gentleman must have been misled.

Surely if the Board of Agriculture go on telling the Agricultural Wages Board often enough that they insist on altering some of the wages which they have fixed, it would amount to an alteration of what the Wages Board has done.

It is reasonable to assume that the Board of Agriculture consists of sane men.

Amendment negatived.

With regard to the next Amendment, standing in the name of the hon. Member for Leicester, does he think his words quite read here? They run, "may, on the application of any two members of the Board." I can quite see what the hon. Member intends, but the words do not seem to me quite to read.

Whether the words come in there or later on, they read a little bit queerly; but I think, at the same time, their meaning is quite clear. The intention is that the Agricultural Wages Board shall, on the application of any two members of the Board, consider these matters and, if they think it expedient, cancel or vary any minimum rate. The idea is that, on the application of two members of the Board, the Board shall meet, and in consequence of this meeting shall cancel or vary any of its decisions. That is the intention, and I think, as a matter of fact, it does read quite correctly.

I beg to move, after the word "may" ["Wages Board may"], to insert the words "on the application of any two members of the Board."

I do not require to take up any of the time of the Committee upon this. It is a point which has been experienced in the working of the Trade Boards. There have been difficulties in getting the boards to meet. I have various cases, but I will just give one. There was a rather important matter that certain members of the Sugar Confectionery and Food Preserving Trades Board wanted to bring before the board; the notice of resolution was entered on 4th October, 1916, but, owing to the defective machinery for securing a meeting of the board, the board did not meet until the 9th of January, 1917, and during the interval various members of the board were doing their best to get it to meet. The point is that as the Bill is drafted nobody has any authority to call a meeting at all, except the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, and I think it would be advisable and desirable that, at any rate, a certain proportion of the members of the board should be endowed with power to call a meeting of the board.

My hon. Friend has stated what can be said for this Amendment on its merits, but I think there is a little that could be said on the other side. Under the Sub-section the Board can act on their own initiative, or on any application, as they think right. But if it is thought desirable to introduce any such limitation —I confess I am a little sceptical at the moment—my hon. Friend will see that it can be done under Regulation, but it is not a thing very necessary and not very desirable.

I quite admit that I put it down simply to raise the question. If the right hon. and learned Gentleman will consider putting it into a Regulation, it will meet my point.

Then, Sir, I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, after the word "opinion" ["in their opinion"], to insert the words "shall be at least sufficient to enable a man to provide for himself and his family sufficient food, clothing, and housing accommodation to maintain physical efficiency, and in any case."

The Amendment is, I think, one of very great importance. We have now come to the consideration of what, on the whole, is the most difficult part of this Clause. I think it is very important to keep in mind what is the object of this measure. It is, first of all, to increase the yield of wheat, and in order to do that we have had it argued that this bonus or insurance must be given to the farmers. I think it must be clear to hon. Members that the Bill will fail unless it really does meet the other point, which the President of the Board of Agriculture put before this House, namely, that it has the power of attracting labour to the land. If you are going to plough up anything like 3,000,000 extra acres of land it is perfectly clear that a large amount of labour will be needed for that. I think it is estimated that something like 200,000 more labourers will be wanted on the land if the amount of corn that is desired is to be obtained. Therefore it does become a question of very real importance and urgency that the statutory amount which is fixed for the minimum wage shall be the right figure. I think that one is bound, before one argues for this Amendment, just to state what were the facts before the War in regard to the wages of agricultural labourers. Take the official report with regard to wages that is generally quoted, which is the report of 1907. There, out of the 457,000 labourers, you had over 410,000 earning under 20s. a week. This fact was alluded to in 1913, in very vivid language, by the present Prime Minister. I want to quote what he said at Bedford, on that occasion, with regard to this point, because I think it puts the case as clearly as one can. He was speaking of what the agricultural labourer needed then. He said:

It is perfectly clear, if the Premier was right in what he said in 1913, that the suggestion made by the Government at the present time with regard to the wage will not have very strong attractive powers. The 25s. that is suggested now is only equal to 14s. 6d. before the War, and it would be unwise for this House, in passing a Bill of this kind—which, remember, is going to be the first great reconstruction Bill passed by this Government and is not going to operate just for this year and not for the period of the War, but is going to operate for some time after the War—to put in a figure which did not provide a man and his wife and a family of three with a living wage. The suggestion which I make in this Amendment is a suggestion which Members will see at once would not be accepted if we were speaking of the urban population. The demand which the workers are making at the present time, and quite rightly, is for something much more than a mere subsistence wage. It is a demand in which I am perfectly certain this House will acquiesce. You must have the people getting wages above the subsistence level and enabling them to take part in the natural enjoyments of life, which we know something about. My Amendment I consider errs, if anything, on the side of moderation. What is suggested here is, after all, only what a farmer does with his animals. He is careful to see that his animals are well fed and well housed. No doubt most of them do not need clothes, but I submit that in this first great reconstruction Bill it is essential that we should put down what we desire as the minimum of existence. The 25s. will not do by itself. The President of the Board of Agriculture would not argue that the equivalent of 14s. 6d. before the War is adequate to attract to the country these large numbers of men that he desires. If you are to meet the other point which he mentions of trying to do something to attract returned soldiers to our land instead of encouraging them to emigrate, it is impossible to think that 25s. is the wage that will achieve that object.

I believe that it is extremely difficult to put a figure into the Bill. I think, now that a definite figure has been suggested, that the Government will have to do it. Now that it has once been mentioned I think that a definite figure will have to be put in. But I believe that if you are going to get the right expansion of that figure you must put into your Bill what it is you desire the Wages Board to attend to with regard to the general question of wage. It seems to me that the suggestion which I have made is what the many leaders of thought in the country at the present time accept. I have read what the Premier said three years ago. He evidently accepted this as the minimum that was needed, and the late Premier, speaking about the same time, accepted this view as well. The Member for East Fife (Mr. Asquith), speaking in December, 1913, said, with regard to minimum wage, that what was needed was a wage such as

The result of these terribly low wages that have prevailed in agriculture has been the chief reason why agriculture is not in a more healthy state at the present time. There has been this constant drifting to the towns, so that whereas fifty years ago the rural population was 49 per cent. of the community, to-day it is only 21 per cent. In 1913 the agricultural emigration to the Colonies was over 30,000 men, and that, of course, was chiefly because of the bad wages and the bad housing conditions. I wish to say one word about the housing question, which has a very great bearing upon the subject we are considering to-day. The present position of the housing question enormously increases the difficulty of the problem that we are faced with. In the figures that the Prime Minister spoke about at Bedford he only reckoned the rental at 2s. a week for a house. At that time, if you had tried to build a house of two or three rooms, you would have had to pay 4s. a week for the rent of that house. The increases in the price of building materials during the War have been such that the class of houses which were rented at 2s. in 1913 would have to be rented at 6s. a week at the present time. That is why I asked the President of the Board of Agriculture a question to-day as to what was going to be the policy of this Government with regard to rural housing. I am certain that before you fix your minimum wage you must give some indication of what the Government are going to do with regard to the provision of rural housing. Unless there is going to be a great deal of building, with probably money loaned or given in some way by the Government, in fixing the minimum wage for the 200,000 labourers that the President desires to get on to the land, you will have to reckon that they will have to pay rent, if they are going to pay an economic rent, of something like 6s. a week. You are never going to get houses built in the country if you are only going to pay 2s. a week in rent. I am perfectly certain that this Committee feels that if it is to get the independence for the agricultural labourer that it is desired he should get, then he must have a wage that will enable him to pay an economic rent for his house. The labourer does not want to be given a house as part of his wages; he wants to get higher wages, and he wants to be able to pay an economic rent.

Therefore, before we settle what is going to be the wage that can be granted, I am sure the President of the Board of Agriculture will see the reasonableness of the request, that we should know what the Government have in their minds with regard to rural housing. I think I have said enough to show that it is impossible for the President of the Board of Agriculture to get what he desires merely by putting into the Bill a minimum wage of 25s. a week. You are not going to get the people flocking back to the land for a wage equivalent to 14s. 6d. before the War. I believe that what public opinion demands at the present time is that there should be at any rate a minimum wage, which shall be sufficient to enable a man to provide for himself and his family. I am not wedded to the words of my Amendment. If the President says that he cannot fix the wages, then he might put in an average at least sufficient to enable a man to provide his family "with sufficient food, clothing, and housing accommodation to maintain physical efficiency." I would ask the right hon Gentleman to give the words of this Amendment of mine, or some words like them, his most serious consideration, because I believe that if some such words were put into the Bill, they would do much in connection with this Clause to satisfy the conscience of the community, and also to meet the difficult demands of the labourer at the present time. In conclusion, I would say that if we are to satisfy labour, it can only be done if we are willing to deal with the wages in a generous spirit. We want to raise in this country the whole standard of life if we possibly can, and I believe that there is a real danger, if you put the wrong figure into this Bill, in some districts, at any rate, of your depressing the standard rather than raising it; and, therefore, I would appeal with all the force I can command to the President to at any rate put into this Bill words which shall clearly indicate to the Wages Board what is desired, that there shall be a decent standard of living amongst the agricultural labourers, and that while this is not the last demand of this kind that will be made in this respect, at any rate, I think that if this is put into the Bill it will effect a very great improvement amongst the agricultural labourers, and will do something to bring back to the land the large number of men and women that the President desires.

I think the House has listened with interest to the speech, delivered with extraordinary clearness, of the hon. Member, and I hope very much that my right hon. Friend opposite may be inclined to accept the Amendment either in the form in which it is on the Paper or with some modification which will express the intention of the Mover. I cannot imagine that it will do any harm, and I think it may do real good. Some of us are feeling very uncomfortable indeed about the figure 25s., and I think we shall have to point out reasons why, at this time, when the cost of living has so extraordinarily increased, the introduction of such a figure would give rise to a perfectly wrong idea of what Parliament really wants to do. I think that later we shall find, by common agreement, that it will be necessary to drop out that figure, and possibly all figures, but if no figure is mentioned you must have some standard to indicate the sort of thing that Parliament wants in connection with this question of wages. The only thing I feel about it is that it does not go quite far enough in indicating that there ought to be some sort of margin for a man to get, at any rate, some simple enjoyments and comforts over and above the mere standard of physical efficiency. But I do believe it will really assist in giving an indication of what Parliament wants, and it would, I think, be a help in the Bill and a help to the conscience of this House, which really wants to do the best it can for the labourer. I shall have to say a great deal more later on when we come to the part of the Bill about 25s. I do hope my right hon. Friend may be inclined to accept some such words.

I think many will agree that my hon. Friend who moved this Amendment put his case in an extremely moderate form and that the proposal must be regarded as a moderate one. In one respect I thought he was unduly moderate in fixing a figure for a man with a family of three. We must, after all, look not only to the average family, but to the family we desire to see prevalent, though, of course, we cannot provide for the maximum figure we might wish for. Is it not worth while examining for a moment the expenses of a man with a family of five? I have some figures which have been drawn out with great care of the expenses at present prices, which are still rising, that a man with a family of five is obliged to spend without allowing for anything beyond the necessaries of life. The details are; an essential factor in the whole question before us in order to arrive at a decision on this wages question. Here are the figures: Groceries you cannot put at less than 6s. 9d., meat cannot possibly be put at less than 5s. 3d., bread and flour 7s., milk 1s. 9d., vegetables 6d. On the assumption that the man has an allotment, on which he grows some vegetables and green stuff, his insurance and club must take 9d., coal he cannot do less than 2s., boots and clothing are put very low at 2s. 6d., and rent again is extremely low at 2s. 6d., the total being £l 9s. It is a plain fact that 25s. does not cover that most moderate estimate for the sustenance of a family of five. Most of the articles are more than double what they were before the War. Supposing 30s. were adopted as the minimum, it would leave this unfortunate man the sum of 1s. for his pocket money and allowances. Hon. Members who have occasion to drink beer will know that out of a shilling not much is to be got in the way of beer. If those figures are anything like correct—and, as I have said, they are got out with great care—it must be admitted that my hon. Friend has put his argument with great moderation. Apart from the minimum to which this argument is strictly relevant, it must be evident that about the fixed scale there is no finality. That question was gone into very thoroughly on the Coal Mines Act, and hon. Members must all realise that even if pub at 30s. there is nothing final or sacred about any figure of that kind. To lay down a standard in this manner with reference to some recognised authority for adequate means for physical efficiency is a really necessary factor in any Act of Parliament setting up a standard of wages.

I think the Committee will regret the unfortunate fate by which we discuss an Amendment of this great importance during the dinner hour when the Members of the Committee present are so very few. I agree with my hon. Friend (Mr. Buxton) in his suggestion that some such discussion as this, founded upon such a general principle as is embodied in my hon. Friend's Amendment, is really essential to a proper determination of the actual wage figure and wages dealt with in the closing part of this Sub-section. I have wondered whether we are to regard the proposal for a minimum wage in this Bill as a recognition of the fundamental necessity that every worker in this country shall as of right receive an economic wage, or whether we are to regard this minimum wage proposal as something in the nature of a concession for a specific quid pro quo. I had hopes and I still venture to hope that we have in the minimum wage section of this Bill the first expression of the Government's determination to make one of the first discussions of reconstruction a complete review and overhauling of the great wage question which, after all, is the fundamental social question of to-day and to-morrow. If we are to regard the provisions in this Bill as a recognition of the fundamental importance of the great wage question then it is of considerable importance that we should preface the discussion of a specific figure by some such general survey of the ground as we are having in this discussion. I agree that the precise form of words which my hon. Friend has proposed suffer from a certain vagueness in form, which is rather inevitable to the declaration of any principle of this kind. I also agree with my hon. Friend (Mr. Buxton) that the argument used by the hon. Member for York (Mr. Rowntree) suffered really from its excessive moderation and the somewhat out-of-date figures upon which he was compelled to rely. He quoted the estimate of one of the greatest living experts on this whole question of a subsistence and efficiency wage, which we possess to-day, and an estimate made some years ago under wholly different economic conditions. I am extremely sorry that we have not discussed this question of a minimum wage, after the completion of a scientific survey and research on the part of the Government as to what is an absolute minimum wage upon which this country can hope to found greater commercial, industrial, and social prosperity. I welcome any proposal which recognises the principle of the minimum wage. I am bound to express my own fear that the treatment, or the partial treatment, of the principle of the minimum wage suffers, or must suffer, because we are not in possession, and the Government itself is not in possession, of the data which are essential to a proper appreciation of the wage necessities of the population. My hon. Friend the Member for York in framing his Amendment has recognised certain primary necessities. No one, however, would suggest for a single moment that the very moderate necessities, the three necessities that he has indicated, at all compass, or even broadly include, the things which are essential to efficiency. He suggests that we should give a man and his family a sufficient supply of food, and further that we should provide them with proper and adequate housing accommodation. Everyone knows that in dealing with these things we are dealing with primary necessities which really stand on the fringe. The man or the woman, given these necessities, still require other things which although not hitherto regarded by economists as necessities, are, in the world in which we live to-day, as essential as are those three commodities referred to by the hon. Member. I should be very glad, Mr. Wilson, if, during the course of these discussions, we may gather definite information as to whether the Government in connection with its reconstruction schemes—of which we take this to be the forerunner—is really contemplating a thoroughly scientific survey of the ground in order to acquaint themselves, and to acquaint this House and the country, with what is essential to efficient subsistence, and a decent wholesome life, and the wage that is requisite for that particular purpose.

Researches, so far as they have been made, are exceedingly limited. I think some of the conclusions which have been founded upon them by econo- mists here and elsewhere will be liable to a certain revision, because most of those researches have been based on chemical and mathematical considerations, and have not yet taken into survey physiological considerations. You may be able to prove to demonstration that chemically a certain quantity of food—proteids and other things—are requisite for efficiency; but the physiological condition of the individual and other things may entirely upset your calculations. This is a branch of inquiry which has not been undertaken, even by the American Government, with its admirable apparatus for investigation and inquiry. I do sincerely hope that the present Government, having anticipated what I hope is a much greater reconstruction work by these particular provisions, will be able to assure us that they are taking a much wider view, a much wider survey of the question, by instituting machinery for a proper investigation of the whole question. I submit that if the Committee, in the consideration of this Amendment, will really keep before itself the absolute minimum which may be expected to do in view of war prices and in view of prices which are inevitable in the years succeeding the war, that they will take this opportunity of appreciating the actual primary and essential necessities of decent life in this country. Having done that, first of all, they will approach the consideration of a wage figure in possibly a more helpful and, I think, a more profitable spirit—more profitable so far as the workers themselves are concerned, and more profitable than would be possible if we had to rush straight to a figure without any preliminary discussion of this kind.

We all recognise, I think, that in the speech of the hon. Member for York there was a ring of earnest sincerity which made every word possibly claim our assent. The subject is one with which the name of the hon. Member is honourably associated in the minds of everybody who has studied the welfare of the workers. As to the Amendment before us, if the insertion of it would of a certainty secure to the agricultural labourer a better wage, the Government would naturally wish to accept the principle, if not the exact terms, of the Amendment. But are we quite sure that the insertion of these words or of similar words would produce such effect? My own idea is that the Wages Boards will naturally take into account the cost of living. There are two sides, and, as I have said before at an earlier stage of the discussion, the side which represents labour will take into account the cost of living. These two sides are equal in number, and the agricultural labourers will be represented by somebody who will be able to state their case. Sometimes I have been strongly impressed by the idea of not putting a figure at all in the Bill, but of asking the Wages Board to fix one. When, however, I came to look into the history of these Wages Boards I found that the two sides crawled over a long road, and at last, with some form of agreement, passed the milestones on the road: these milestones worked out each at about one-sixteenth of a penny. How long then would they be in arriving at a statement such as we have in the Bill, or have got anywhere near the minimum wage? This is an emergency Bill. It is not a reconstruction Bill, and I would venture to recall that to the mind of my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield. It is not a reconstruction Bill. It is an emergency Bill which deals with six years. I felt that if we waited a tedious time, that probably by next year these Wages Boards might have arrived, by slow progress, by crawling along, past the milestone of the one-sixteenth of a penny, and in so doing they might ultimately have arrived at something near where we are starting from. We have a basis from which we start, whatever else is arranged to be added afterwards. That is the position. Supposing they got the directions of this Amendment, and were informed that what they were to take into consideration was a sufficiency of food, clothing, and housing accommodation? I must say that there is the risk that they would take nothing else into account. There is my fear. I do not at all object; and I should like to have the principle recognised.

It is not a question only of the necessaries of life. I think it is a question of the decencies of life. I go still further, and I say it is a question of the luxuries of life. I would give to people the adequate means of subsistence in the widest possible sense of the word. That is the ideal to which I should like to instruct these Wages Boards gradually to work up. That is the principle upon which I should dike to work. If you insert these words of the hon. Member for York in the Bill you will limit the functions of the Wages Boards to providing actual physical necessities: instead of bettering the condition of the agricultural labourer I believe that this declaration, limited as it is, will do the reverse. I say so quite honestly and entirely in sympathy with this Motion. After all, I venture to think that a man's calling is not merely to be an agricultural labourer, nor yet a lawyer, nor possibly a land agent. That is his calling in the ordinary sense of the word. In the wider sense of the word, his calling is to be a man—a living man—a citizen of no mean city, a man who is concerned in its governments And I would say that these words are wholly inadequate—that what you want is something quite different, and that what you really mean is that it is just as important—I almost think more important—to provide for such means as will train a man for his hours of leisure, to train him for patriotic and public-spirited employment for the time when he is his own master, as it is to train him for his hours when he is obtaining his living wage. To aim at any other ideal in these democratic days is, I think, to aim straight at destruction, and, therefore, I would say to the Committee, for your purpose these words are wholly inadequate. I will gladly consider whether we can put in some words which will show to the Wages Board the ideal that we have in view. Whether we get there this year, or ten years hence, what matters? Let us hitch our waggon to a star, and then we shall at least attain the highest.

After that declaration of policy and ideals which we have just heard from the Front Bench I almost hesitate to address the Committee. We are not accustomed to getting statements of agricultural policies and ideals like that from Ministers in this House. I am bound to say that when we get them we welcome them with no uncertain voice, and I only hope that the right hon. Gentleman, in. carrying out those ideals, will be able to rely upon the support of all his colleagues. In my opinion, this is the most important Amendment in this Bill. I think the Amendment, halting and lame as it is—and I am not quite sure it can be made anything else—is the most important Amendment in the whole of the Bill because if you are going to say that you are not going to give directions in this way to the Wages Board you have got to tell us why you are not going to give them.

I speak here very seldom, and represent one of the largest agricultural constituencies in the House.

It seems to me a most amazing thing that one cannot discuss what is the most vital Amendment without interruptions of this sort from hon. Members. I have not the slightest intention to stop. I want to say why I think this is of the greatest importance. We are told to leave everything to the Wages Boards. I do not happen to be one of those people who believe that Wages Boards are going to be the be all and end all of everything. I do not believe we can safely leave everything to Wages Boards. We have to consider who are going to be on them. It is not for the moment relevant to discuss the use of Wages Boards, but if we are going to be asked to leave everything to the Wages Boards and not to pass Amendments which will in a way lead the mentality of these Wages Boards, we have to consider what they are. I noticed the right hon. Gentleman said that the workmen would always be represented by persons able to state their case. That shows a sublime optimism, which I wish I could share. I do not think it is true. I am quite sure the right hon. Gentleman thinks it is true, but I have myself seen electioneering in agricultural counties where things have happened that make me quite sure it is not true. I have seen one constituency in which it was practically impossible for one political party to hire a committee room in something like ten or twenty villages. I have seen another constituency where I myself have had to address a meeting only after dark, because it was the only time that anyone could come, and then the whole meeting was hidden behind a wall. We are not going to have people on equal terms under the present condition of things. Say you have two agricultural labourers or their representatives and two farmers, and possibly certain neutral people, we are not going to have in many districts that impartiality and that nice balance of opinion that we might all of us desire, and I think if you are going to leave to the Wages Boards all these questions, and leave them with confidence, I think your confidence is going to be rudely shaken.

Although this may not be a reconstruction measure—and I notice we are sometimes told it is not a War measure, and sometimes we are told it is not a reconstruction measure—we are, at any rate, face to face with this state of things, that agriculture, for years and years, has been an industry in which the wages have been a public scandal. There has been, during a great many years, no real attempt to alter them, and, although people to-day talk in this eloquent way about what will be done to the labourers, and how all our hearts go out to them, we have to face the fact that for the last twenty-five years at least, although a great many people have talked, no one has acted, and I know perfectly well that when this War is over, unless we take time by the forelock, we are going to be in precisely the same position as we were before. At the end of this War we are going to be faced with the position that our Colonies are going to offer our people many attractions, and we are going to offer them very few, and, unless we take this question in hand now and see that the conditions are going to be better after the War, we are not going to keep our people in this country. Whether it is a reconstruction measure or a War measure, let us take the opportunity of laying down now that, unless there is provided for the agricultural labourers in this country a wage that will at any rate secure to them what is provided by this Amendment, agriculture is not an industry that is a legitimate industry at all. We have to start, not from the position that this farmer or that farmer may be alarmed if we allow this or that as a minimum wage, but we have to start from the broadest human sense. With all the new emotions aroused by this War, and the magnificent sacrifices made by all classes of the community—many classes who seem to get so little from the War, but are willing to give so much—when we face this position we talk as though the old position still existed, and that we can say, "Can the trade afford this?" All I can say is, if the trade cannot afford it, the State has got to do something with the trade to alter the old conditions. Unless you can build from the foundations after this War you are simply steering straight for disaster. Not only is it absolutely wrong that we should carry this Bill through to a conclusion without some provision of this sort being put into it, but if we do carry it to a conclusion without some such provision, we shall not only be doing something which is grossly unfair, but doing something worse, and that is leading this country into a very dangerous and disturbed state.

What is this Amendment? We have got to discuss now the question of the amount of the minimum wage, and much of what we are saying will be relevant to another proposal in the Bill, and many of us will not speak again upon this subject. Here you have an Amendment that you must have a wage which at least is sufficient to provide a man and his family with certain things, and in any case not less than 25s. a week. You cannot argue the one case without the other. If the State is going to say we are going to leave this direction to the Board—we must not forget that there is to be a minimum of 25s.—what does the State do? I will assume we are right when we say that 25s. is to-day the equivalent of 14s. 6d. before the War, although from information that I have had from reliable sources I should say that 12s. 6d. was a great deal nearer the mark. We start with this position, that before the War there was a state of things that was a scandal. The War has come upon us, and we are now proposing that the minimum wage should be an equivalent of a state of things that before the War was a scandal. If we are going boldly to leave this Bill in the position that it will be if you do not insert this Amendment and leave the Clause at 25s., you are really going to say to the agricultural labourer, "We all admit the scandal of your wages before the War. We are prepared to admit that what we propose now is exactly the same as before the War. Therefore it is a scandal now, but it is the best thing we can do."

The hon. Member comes forward and proposes, instead of saying that, we should say, "Let us at least provide, or let the boards at least provide, for a fair wage that will cover all the necessaries of a man and his family, or at least 25s." I admit that that is an improvement, but I agree with what somebody said that it would be a great deal better not to put a figure in at all than to put in a figure that is too low. If you put in a figure and it is carried every Wages Board" will say, "It is absurd to say that this particular figure is not enough to provide for the bare necessities of life, because it has been considered and agreed to by Parliament and we will take their figure." Any fixed figure under the mark is a public danger, and I would much rather have a Clause based upon what my hon. Friend has proposed in his Amendment than have any fixed figure if it is to be inadequate. I cannot dissever this question from the question of the actual amount you are going to put into the Bill. I cannot under any circumstances support this Bill at all unless a new figure is put in. After what has been shown in this War, and the magnificent sacrifices which have been made by these men, I cannot take part in the ignominious proceeding of putting in a figure that everybody knows is insufficient to provide the necessaries of life for a working-class family. It seems outrageous, and I cannot understand why we are asked to do anything of the sort. Let us have words like these if we cannot have a larger figure. I am not one of those who believe much in Wages Boards or legislation of this sort. In the agricultural division of which I am a member I have never disguised my view that this is merely a question of pills to cure earthquakes. I believe the causes go much deeper, and unless you are going to make-it easier for the agricultural classes to get land I do not believe you are going to do any permanent good. All we can do is to try to make proposals which may be bad in principle tolerable in practice.

I protest against these people being given sympathy and nothing else. It is not sympathy we want but action, and if this Bill goes through with a figure of 25s. and no such qualification as that which is now proposed, you will only be stereotyping a figure that will be oppressive to the whole agricultural community. I think we ought to persist in such a proposal as this, and upon having some recognition of the right to live of all these people put into the Bill. No one recognises more gratefully than I do the tone in which the right hon. Gentleman has made these proposals, but the position is far too serious for us to be content with anything less than actual words put into the Bill. I am profoundly distrustful of shelving our own responsibility and leaving these questions to committees, the composition of which we do not know. You have to build up this industry on a sound basis, and to see that everything is provided in this Bill and nothing is left to chance. We do not know the constitution of these committees, and we must see that we do not shelve one great question after another to the tender mercies of these committees, which will be quite different in different counties, and which may do grave injustice if this matter is not put right in the Bill.

During the years I have been a Member of this House I have never been moved so much by any speech as I have been by the speech just delivered by the President of the Board of Agriculture. I do not recollect any speech delivered in my hearing so genuinely eloquent, so full of human feeling and sympathy and idealism as the speech delivered by the right hon. Gentleman. But I did not rise to express my appreciation of the right hon. Gentleman's speech. I want to say one or two words which I think will be of a practical character. I am in the completest sympathy with the purpose and object with which my hon. Friend the Member for York (Mr. Rowntree) moved this Amendment. I, too, would like to see in the Bill some enunciation of the principle of an adequate wage, but I agree with the President of the Board of Agriculture that if the enunciation of the principle of a living wage were expressed in the words of the Amendment now before the Committee, that it would be much more likely to defeat the purpose in view than to realise it. I quite agree with what the President of the Board of Trade said that food, clothing, and housing accommodation do not constitute all that should be included in the phrase "a living wage." We have to remember that the standard of life of all classes is constantly rising, or, to put it more correctly, that the desire for a higher standard of life is constantly increasing, and it should be the aim of all who have the interests of the country at heart, and it should be the aim of legislation, as far as possible, to satisfy that increasing desire. It is manifesting itself to a greater extent in directions outside the mere necessaries of a physical existence. There are intellectual aspirations which are constantly expanding and growing, and in making provision for a living wage in the fullest meaning of that term consideration ought to be given to the satisfaction of these higher intellectual and moral aspirations.

My criticism of the Amendment before the Committee is that it ignores everything outside the satisfaction of the bare necessaries of life. How will it operate in practice? Suppose that an application were made, say, by the Agricultural Workers' Union to a wages tribunal for an increase of wages on the ground that there had been an increase in the cost of living, and suppose that they included in the statement of their case items of increased expenditure which were not included in the terms food, housing accommodation, and clothes. If these words were incorporated in the Act, the tribunal would by Statute be prohibited from taking into consideration any increase in the cost of living which was not comprised within these three terms. Although I should be very glad indeed to see some enunciation of the principle of a living wage, I should be sorry to see it expressed within such narrow terms as these. I may say, in reply to an expression which was used by my hon. and learned Friend who has just sat down (Mr. Hemmerde), that the President of the Board of Agriculture promised something more than sympathy. He promised to give his attention to this matter between now and the Report stage, and he gave us what practically amounted to a promise to see if it were not possible to find some words wider in their character and application than the words of this Amendment. For the time being I am satisfied with that promise, and I think that my hon. Friend the Member for York (Mr. Rowntree) would be well advised if he were to be satisfied with it now and withdraw his very limited Amendment.

I agree with most of what was said by the hon. and learned Member for Norfolk (Mr. Hemmerde), in a very powerful and eloquent speech, but at the same time I am wholly against the wording of this Amendment, because, as the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden) has just said, to lay down the principle, as the guiding consideration for the Committee who are charged with the duty of assessing wages, that these wages should be at least sufficient to enable a man to purchase for himself and those dependent upon him sufficient food, housing accommodation, and clothing to maintain himself and his family in a state of physical efficiency would be most dangerous. When I read those words I recall what was the condition of the Irish labourer seventy or eighty years ago. He lived in a mud hovel under conditions inconceivable in any civilised country, and his wages averaged from 6s. to 7s. per week. Generally he had a large family, and he maintained himself in splendid physical efficiency. How on earth he did it I do not know, but the world has never seen a healthier or more physically efficient body of men. He was clad in rags, but nobody can say that he was not physically efficient. The Irish labourer in those days lived principally on potatoes, with a certain amount of Indian meal and oatmeal. Therefore, to lay down as a guiding principle for these boards that the wages shall only be enough to provide a man and his family with sufficient food, clothing, and housing accommodation to maintain himself and his family in a state of physical efficiency might mean a very low standard of living indeed. In the first place, those words are vague, and, in the second place, they wholly ignored, as the hon. Member for Blackburn has so truly said, the demand that is growing up among all classes of the community for something more than the minimum necessary to maintain physical efficiency. I have always thought that one of the most ghastly characteristics of the accepted doctrine of British political economy when I first came into this House—it was accepted just as the propositions of Euclid used to be accepted—was that it should be absolutely unquestionable that the proper wage for a working man was just that wage that would enable him to clothe himself and maintain himself in physical efficiency.

This Bill is very much more far-reaching than most Members have the least notion. It is all very well to apply these principles to agriculture, but do you imagine for a single moment that you are going to stop at agriculture? It is bound to have the most tremendous consequences, and I do not understand how any man can doubt it. It would, therefore, be most dangerous, although the hon. and learned Member for Norfolk has advocated one of the most important propositions that has been laid before the House in the whole course of these discussions, if we were to put that as the aim and the ideal at which we were driving in this Amendment. Although I am a strong supporter of this Bill, I frankly admit that it is in the nature of a pill to cure an earthquake. What you want in this country is something quite different. You want a scheme which will lay the foundations broad and deep for a revival of independence among the agricultural population. After all, as I said on the Second Reading, there is nothing in this Bill to encourage the formation of a peasantry in this country. You have lost your peasantry, and you will never get agriculture on a satisfactory foundation no matter what you do for the agricultural labourer, because whatever you legislate for him, he is more or less in a slavish and subject condition so long as he has no land of his own, until you give the agricultural labourer independence. We in Ireland have succeeded in doing a great deal for our people in that way. We have made the agricultural labourer an independent man to a large extent. Four-fifths of the agricultural labourers are independent men. They have their houses and their land independent of the farmer and any landlord. That alone gives them an immense advantage. The great thing, to my mind, is not a question of rent, but of independence. So long as the farmer has the labourer's house at his command and can put him out of house and home, no matter what you do with regard to minimum wages, that man is still more or less a slave or serf. The scenes described by the hon. and learned Member for North-West Norfolk (Mr. Hemmerde) could not occur in Ireland, because the agricultural labourer there is no more afraid of the farmer than you are afraid of the farmer.

I am very glad to hear it, but the hon. and learned Gentleman described scenes as occurring in England which could not be imagined in Ireland. Although some labourers in Ireland are very poor still and their wages are grossly insufficient, yet they are men who have a future before them, because they are not afraid of the landlord. That brings me to one other thing I wish to say in reference to what was said by the hon. and learned Member for North-West Norfolk, that this is more or less bound up with the question of the minimum wage. Speaking only for myself, I am extremely doubtful as to the usefulness of putting in a figure at all. I have always been doubtful about it. I am not at all sure that it would not be better to approach this question by the avenue of making the labourer as independent as possible, and to approach the wage question from the same point of view and by the same roads as all the other workers in this country. We are told that agriculture has been the Cinderella from the point of view of wages among the industries of this country. Why is that? Simply because the agricultural labourer in this country has been more or less a slave. He has tried three or four times and made great efforts, but has always broken down in his endeavour to enter into trade unions. The reason why his wages are so low is because he is so terrified that he has not been able to maintain his unions. If he had been able to do what the town worker has done, his wages would have been at a very different figure from what they are. That is the real cause of the miserable wages paid to the agricultural labourer. If he could only be made independent and put on a level footing with the farmer, with these Wages Boards it is quite possible that he would be in a position to obtain a reasonable and proper wage adapted to the various districts of the country. If you put in a minimum you will find that you are up against one of the most difficult problems that ever faced the House of Commons, because the minimum which for some districts might be satisfactory would be found unsatisfactory for other districts. I will not pursue that subject, because it will come up on the next Amendment. I would only say that I am very doubtful whether the putting in of any figure is really of advantage to the agricultural labourer, or is the right way to arrive at the object we all have in view. The proper and more effective course would be to make the agricultural labourer independent, give him a chance of obtaining land by a well-organised system of small holdings, and set up a system of housing similar to that which exists in Ireland, and which would make him quite independent of the farmer and enable him to meet the farmer on equal terms. In that way you would secure a much better system of wages than by putting in a minimum.

I do not want to amplify what has been said already, but we have heard words to-night that the right hon. Gentlemen will never be allowed to forget, which he will never remember without knowing that they were received with grateful feelings by many old workers in the cause of the agricultural labourer in this country. While cherishing very warmly and gratefully his utterances, there are one or two points to which I should like to make passing reference. I sincerely hope he will not think that my gratitude for those splen- did utterances of his is discounted by these one or two remarks. He said truly that this was not a Reconstruction Bill, but will he fail to see that this will be a precedent quoted again and again? It will be a precedent, I fear, that will be quoted with less kindly souls than himself in the shaping of future legislation. If he thinks that to-night we are pressing him unduly, may I say it is only because we shall not have him always with us. Another point is this: He said he thought it was necessary to give adequate means of existence. Here I would plead for some such protection as is proposed by this Amendment, though it should only be for net means of subsistence. It is an awful thing that at this time of day there should be thousands of mothers and wives who have to go out to do their shopping and weigh one necessary of life against another as to whether their slenderly filled purses will enable them to buy this or that. These are not days in which one can talk about luxuries or the purchase of things that make for an ideal state of life. But we want to make our labourers able to afford the necessaries of life.

Only a few years ago I had to go over an enormous area of agricultural land in the constituency which I represented for four years in this House, and which has been very well known for many years to the President of the Board of Agriculture. The labourers there were expected to bring up a family on from 13s. a week. God and the women only know how they did it! Those wages have not been appreciably increased since then. I plead that the right hon. Gentleman should consider this when he takes this Bill on Report, not merely because of his own lofty and beautiful ideals, which I hope we shall live to see partly if not wholly realised, and that he should see that they are not whittled down in the product of results below the lines of net needs. Taking the one point in this Amendment, "for himself and his family," there comes a difficulty at once. You have to provide in this country for larger families. If this country is going to stand there is no greater peril in front of this country than the steady decline in the birth rate. Here you can lay your finger on the very point where the whole of this thing pivots. You provide for a man and his family, but no suggestion is made that there should be any difference between the wages of a man who has one or two children and those of a man who has ten or a dozen. We shall have not only by this Bill, but in all our legislation to help to carry the burden of a large family, remembering that it is true that the cradle is mightier than the battleship.

One word further. I want him to remember that it is not merely true, as the hon. Member (Mr. Dillon) said, that the position of the labourer fifty years ago was a shame to the world, either in this country or in Ireland, but that the degeneracy of the quality of the labourer of to-day is our shame. In the county that the right hon. Gentleman graces with his presence from time to time and part of which he represents, the neighbouring county and the surrounding counties are a shame to our country to-day. When I first went into that Division, in 1904, I met a whole lot of the old type of labourers. They were men of great reflective powers and intellect. They were shut up in rural life because of their ignorance, as the world calls it, although they had large powers of observation and introspection. The schoolmaster has come along since. Those old men were kept in rural life because from pride and shame they could not enter into competition with their neighbours, the better educated townsmen. When I came and saw the younger men at that time—the schoolmaster had unlocked the school doors since 1870—a great change had come over the people, and to-day the young agricultural labourer is often not half as fine a man as his grandfather.

The schoolmaster has done it, because the prizes of agricultural life were so infinitely poor. The unlocking of the school has been the liberation of the best of the agricultural population, and they have flooded into the towns. They have left the countryside derelict. The recruiting officers everywhere are complaining of this degeneracy, and I am hoping that although this may be but a temporary measure it may carry within it some need of a more hopeful condition of life for rural England, and that the gentle hands and kindly spirit and cheerful Christian optimism of the President of the Board of Agriculture will have some influence upon it.

I want to thank the right hon. Gentleman for the generous spirit in which he has met this Amendment. I understand that he is willing between now and the Report stage to consider whether he cannot widen the words that I suggested. I gather that he desires that, if possible, some words like these, but wide enough to meet the view that he expressed, shall be put in. On that understanding I gladly withdraw the Amendment.

I will certainly consider the words with very sympathetic attention-before the Report stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The next Amendment, in the name of the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Wardle) [to leave out the words "for an ordinary day's work"], is hardly in order without an alternative suggestion such as that contained in the Amendment of the hon. Member for Devizes ["a week's work of forty-eight hours"].

I should be quite willing to consider the advisability of supporting my hon. Friend's Amendment if those words were taken out. I should like to submit that we have already inserted words before which make these words as they appear now entirely unnecessary, because in a previous Amendment which the President moved the hours and the conditions of employment can be taken into consideration by the Wages Board. I should like to move to leave out "for an ordinary day's work," in order that we may have it clear that, however long a man works during that particular week, he shall have the minimum wage which may be fixed.

It seems to me clear that as this is a mandatory Clause it must give an indication what the specified wages are for. Therefore, whilst the hon. Member for Devizes is right in moving out ordinary day's wages and putting it in another form, if it is taken out altogether it loses the clearness of the Clause.

I beg to move to leave out the words "an ordinary day's work," and to insert instead thereof the words "a week's work of forty-eight hours."

I move this not because I am particularly wedded to the precise alternative for the vague words "an ordinary day's work," but because I certainly think it desirable to define really what you mean should be given for the 25s., and what should constitute, on the labourer's side, a fair return for the 25s. minimum wage. Of course there is a vast difference between the hours worked in agriculture in winter and in summer, and the hours that can be worked, and it does not seem to me to impinge on the question of overtime at all. But if you put in something which represents a fair average week's work as between summer and winter, and one class of employment in agriculture and another, whether it is forty-eight or some other number of hours, and provided you clearly indicate a limit beyond which an additional payment is justified and below which the full minimum wage is not earned, I think, whether forty-eight is the correct number of hours or not, it is worth consideration in this Sub-section, which is the mandatory part of the Bill with regard to wages, that we should fix something more definite as what is considered an ordinary day's work. I see that the hon. and learned Gentleman above the Gangway has an Amendment to substitute "customary" for "ordinary." I presume that would mean customary in the district, but I think really a definite statement of the number of hours which are to be reckoned as properly given in return for the minimum wage is the best way of defining it. At any rate, whether that be so or not, I should like the President of the Board of Agriculture to let us know what he had in his mind in adopting this somewhat vague phrase "an ordinary day's work," and whether there is any particular advantage in specifying here an ordinary day's work whereas the rate fixed is a rate for a week's work. It is not really a contentious point that I wish to put forward. I only want to give the President an opportunity of convincing the Committee, if he can, that it is best to leave this in the vague and nebulous form in which it is drafted in the Bill, and not define it in any way such as I have indicated.

The motive of the Amendment is a good one. In my view the question of the ordinary day's work or week's work and the question of overtime are inherent in any fixing of a minimum rate of wages. You cannot fix a minimum rate of wages really without having regard to the normal rate of hours for which the normal rate is payable and without ascertaining at what point overtime becomes payable. That is absolutely" essential. I think probably my right hon. Friend will be able to tell the Committee that a very large number of bodies in this country interested in agricultural questions have taken the view that at some stage the question of the ordinary day's work or the ordinary week's work has got to be dealt with by somebody. The Committee will agree in that. It is a great convenience to the farmer and the labourer to know exactly where he stands. The question which I put to the Committee is this: Is it best that this House should attempt to fix it, or is it best the Board of Agriculture should attempt to fix it, or is it best that it should be one of those matters that are left to be dealt with by the Wages Board in considering the question of the rate of wages? I suggest that the last of the three alternatives is the right one, because the length of hours worked and the time of hours worked vary so much in different districts in the United Kingdom that it would be extremely inadvisable for this House to attempt to fix any number of daily hours as the ordinary day's work or, any number of weekly hours as the ordinary week's work. Another reason is that in the different classes of agricultural labour the number of hours worked per day and per week differ. The ordinary labourer has not to work on Sunday, but unfortunately the cows have to be milked on Sunday. Consequently I suggest that in Clause 8 a provision should be inserted enabling the Board of Agriculture to make regulations as to the fixing of the ordinary hours of work, daily or weekly, and the overtime, by the Wages Board in respect of the various districts on the recommendation of the district committees. I submit that that is a wise and practicable course to adopt in these cases. Those Members who are familiar with agricultural conditions know how very greatly the daily hours and the weekly hours vary both in districts and in occupation. I do not' believe we can deal with this matter in any other way.

This comes back to my view that there should be some statutory provision made in the text of the Bill, but I understand that it is quite useless to press the right hon. Gentleman on that point. His suggestion is that he is going to deal with it by means of Regulations. Will these Regulations enjoin upon the Wages Board that they should fix a definite period of hours corresponding to the normal wage, or is it merely that in his Regulation he is going to enable these Wages Boards to do it if they like? If that is the alternative, I do not think they will do it.

If you require them to do it that would be better, but not so good as I should like. At all events, it would not be quite so bad as if there were no such mandatory duty imposed upon the Wages Board. If you do not have a fixed limit of hours of some kind I think all the experience of the Factory Acts go to show that the actual administration of the Act becomes simply inoperative. Therefore, I think there ought to be some instruction as to hours.

This is a point upon which I have been trying to get a definition from the right hon. Gentleman as to what is the actual policy of the Board. If we are to understand that the Board of Agriculture intend to issue Regulations to the Wages Boards that they shall have power to fix the hours for which the minimum wage is going to be paid, then, of course, we know where we are. If there is going to be no regulation of that kind, and there is nothing in the Bill to direct the attention of the Wages Board to the fact that they may or must fix the hours, and we have no statutory provision whatever, I think the thing is too loose altogether. We do not know what we are passing when we say that there shall be a minimum wage of so much per week and we do not know how many hours are represented by an ordinary day's work or a customary day's work. Neither of these definitions are, in my opinion, sufficient. The elasticity which there has been in the past regarding the number of hours is an elasticity which is not good, because so long as they can be allowed to work on an ordinary day as long as they like, and so long as they can fix it at such periods as may be customary in the district, there is always a tendency to drag on the day and not to get the work done in the smallest possible number of hours, so that a reasonable leisure may be preserved for the worker. We must have somewhere an undertaking that the Wages Board by Statute will take some step to indicate the number of hours either per day or per week for which the minimum wage is to be paid.

I can give the hon. Member a most explicit undertaking that words shall be inserted in Clause 8, Subsection (1), paragraph ( b ), where we have the power of making Regulations. We will put in the words enabling or requiring; I do not mind which. [HON MEMBERS: "Requiring!"] Well, requiring the agricultural Wages Board to define the ordinary hours of the day or the week to be worked, and the overtime. We have always thought that we had that power in the Bill already, but anything that makes it absolutely certain we will put in.

Before we dispose of this Amendment I would point out to the right hon. Member for the Ashford Division (Mr. Laurence Hardy) that his Amendment to insert the word "customary" would not read. It would not be grammar.

I do not wish to move the Amendment standing in my name in view of the attitude which the right hon. Gentleman has taken. I thought the word "customary" was better than" ordinary," but after what the right hon. Gentleman has said in reference to his future action, I do not wish to propose my Amendment.

In asking leave to withdraw my Amendment, in view of what the right hon. Gentleman has said, I only want to make one comment on the speeches that have been made. There seems to be a little tendency to confuse two questions: the question of requiring the Wages Board to fix the hours of labour that are to be worked, and the question of requiring them to fix the number of hours that are to be worked in return for the minimum wage. Those are two quite separate things, and I think the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Wardle) was a little too much inclined to regard agriculture as being like any other industry where it is desirable to get through the work as quickly as possible for all parties concerned, labour as well as employer, and where the maximum amount of hours that should be worked should be fixed. I am not sure that is quite applicable to agriculture, because the amount varies all the year round, and I think we should accept what the President of the Board of Agriculture says he is going to do on Clause 8, namely, to require the Board to fix the number of hours that constitute a week's work and entitle a man to receive the minimum wage, or the other rate fixed. I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Yes, I must object because I want to ask this. Supposing the eight hours is over at 5 o'clock, and a horse-keeper comes in at a quarter-to-five and finds that the horse has a nail in its foot which requires taking out and the foot poulticing, which will take half-an-hour, is he to leave the horse in that state and go away? Supposing a cow-man finds a cow is going to calve, what is to happen then? The fact is that hon. Members below the Gangway do not know in the least what they are talking about, and they seem to think that they can fix wages and hours in agriculture in the same way as they can fix the wages and hours of a man who is running a machine or doing some work in a factory.

On a point of Order. Cannot a cow calve in overtime as well as in ordinary time?

10.0 P.M.

That all depends on the nature of the case. The hon. and learned Gentleman is extremely able, and he may possibly be in a position to ensure that a cow may calve at a fixed time, but I think he will find that it is not always possible, even for him. My point is, is there to be a dispute every time as to whether a man stayed ten minutes afterwards or went away ten minutes early? At the present time that sort of thing does not enter into it, but now, apparently, there is to be a dispute every time as to whether a man stayed a few minutes late and is entitled to—what? Is it to go to the Wages Board that he stayed a quarter of an hour after time, and is entitled to a certain sum, and has that to be proved before the board? The hon. and learned Gentleman's interruption shows that in his desire to get the Bill through he has forgotten some of the most important parts of it, and has not understood what the effect of the Bill will be. The only effect will be to encourage disputes between farmers and their men.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (6), after the word "least" ["at the rate of at least"], to insert the words "thirty shillings a week for the year 1917; twenty-seven shillings and sixpence a week for the years 1918 and 1919; and thereafter."

I think now we are getting to a point in this Clause which will enable us to discuss not only those high sentiments, which we all share, as to the future of the agricultural labourer and as to the future of all industrial classes, but as to what can be done of a practical kind for the purpose of benefiting the agricultural labourer. There has been some allusion on more than one occasion to-day to the fact that it might have been well—and it is a very open question—to have left out a figure altogether in connection with the minimum wage; but the Government have put in a figure which they think at present adequate, namely, 25s. We have already heard from the President of the Board of Agriculture, in speaking on a previous Amendment, why he found it necessary to put in a figure in this Clause. He told us—though many Members were not present at that time—in debating a previous Amendment, that he found it necessary to put in a figure because of the difficulty there was in dealing with the question in a practical way without a figure being in. Now the Government have put in one which they thought at the time would meet the requirements necessary for a minimum wage for the agricultural labourer. I do not know, but I sincerely trust they have, whether they have changed their mind as to the sum that they have put in—25s.—and whether they are prepared now to extend the amount of the minimum wage which they have inserted in the Bill. I, with my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Sir M. Levy), have put down an Amendment, not that we consider the sum that we have included, or rather the sums that we have included, in our Amendment entirely adequate, but we thought it necessary with the increased rise in prices during even the period that this Bill has been before the House that the original figure in the Bill should be extended. Therefore, we have put down an increase of 5s. a week for the current year. It will be seen that in this Amendment that I am moving we have adopted the principle of a sliding-scale, and in putting the sliding-scale in this Amendment, in starting with a sum of 30s. per week for the first year and reducing it in the second and third, we then follow the principle of the price that was fixed for the farmer's produce. It is not that we desire at all to see the minimum wage fluctuate. We thought that perhaps it might be necessary, on purpose to get a concession from the Government, to meet their own figures in connection with the reduction that they are going to guarantee to the farmer for his produce, but on further consideration, while I move it now, should the feeling of the House be expressed very strongly in favour of wanting a clear issue on the first figure, then I would, if I may, consider the advisability of withdrawing my own in favour of a clear issue.

The point is, with regard to the 25s. per week, that I do not think that under the increased prices—I am not going over the facts that we have had given to us tonight to such an extent, I do not say to too great an extent because those who have sat here all the evening have been very much interested in the figures given, specially those quoted by my hon. Friend the Member for York (Mr. Rowntree)— it is possible for us to omit to press on the Government again the inadequacy of the sum they have put in this Bill, and I most sincerely trust that the Government will see its way to make some concession to us in regard to a small increase—and I admit it is only a small increase—in the minimum wage. It may be said that you are asking too much of the farmers to pay a minimum wage of 30s. a week. I do not think we are. So far as I have been able to get information, especially in my own country—and I have taken the trouble to get information from many parts of the country—the wage of 30s. a week is below anything like what they are paying, that, in fact, when the Wages Board fix a wage of 30s. they are not putting any penalty whatever at the present time on the farmers, but that they are really fixing a wage which is below the standard wage that they are having to pay for their labourers at the present moment.

If that is disputed, I know plenty of farmers who, if that were the standard rate, would like to see their wages bill come down—I mean simply from a commercial point of view, not from their own sentiments—to a position of 25s. a week. A bare 25s. a week, at the present time, with the cost of produce and of the necessities of the family, is totally inadequate to meet anything like the requirements of the household. Take the figures quoted by the hon. Member for York. He estimated that at the present moment the pre-war sum of 25s. a week is worth only 14s. 6d. I will not reduce it as low as that—though I do not for a moment say that he is wrong—but take it even at a higher sum, can you expect, with the strain and stress of what you are expecting people to do to meet the requirements of a household, of a wife and family, on 25s. a week? We say, start at least during the present time, while prices are where they are, at 30s. a week. It may be said that that is not a very large increase. I admit that it is not all that some desire, but what I want is to get some increase—all I possibly can—but still some increase. I know that many people who, perhaps, are not so conversant with what is the expenditure in a working class household, do not sufficiently estimate how much further an increase of 5s. a week will go in a household towards buying the necessaries of life in comparison with their own personal expenditure. It is only when they watch carefully and closely what a great difference even an increase of 5s. a week means in the amount of the necessaries of life that can be brought into a household that they realise the vast importance of this increase. I am not going to labour this question, because so much has been conceded. Everyone has admitted the necessity of the minimum wage; everyone has admitted that an adequate wage—and I am afraid 30s. is not an adequate cash wage, but something approaching the cash wage of the agricultural labourer—should be given, and therefore I beg to move.

I should like to beg the hon. Member to withdraw this Amendment, so that we can have a very clear issue on the next Amendment.

If it is the wish of the Committee I will do so.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move to leave-out the words "twenty-five" ["twenty-five shillings"], and to insert instead thereof the word "thirty."

I feel that this Amendment is one of the greatest possible importance. I think it is the Amendment which the House will consider to be probably the most important with which we have been faced during the whole question of the passage of this Bill. The Government have decided that, in their opinion, a minimum wage ought to be established for agriculture in this country. Not only have they decided that, but they have put down in this Bill a figure at which they think that minimum wage ought to start. I would like just for a moment to address myself to the question whether or not any figure ought to be inserted in this Bill. It has been a matter of great controversy, both this evening and on previous discussions on the Bill, whether or not any figures ought to be specified in it. My view clearly is, now that the Government are going to establish a minimum wage, and to establish that minimum wage in a Bill in which they have inserted prices of corn for the farmer, they ought, as a corollary, to give the figure at which the minimum wage should start for the worker. I do not share the view that the mere putting in of a figure tends to make that figure not the minimum only, but the maximum which can be obtained. It depends a great deal on the scarcity of labour, and also on the strength and power of the trades union which the men may command. In this connection, I should like to add that I hope the day is not far distant when the agricultural labourers will show that they are going to follow the example of all the other industrial classes in the country, and combine in trade unions to protect their interests, and, in a large measure, to settle their wages and conditions. I look on this Bill, if I may be pardoned for saying so, as being extremely important, because I believe it will be the beginning of an opportunity for agricultural labourers to be independent enough to organise themselves into trade unions, and so protect themselves, which they have been unable hitherto to do. My contention, therefore, is that some figure ought to be in the Bill; and I say that for another reason, which I would like to make clear. I believe that if a figure is in the Bill that figure will be an irreducible minimum. I quite understand my hon. Friend behind me moving an Amendment to make a minimum wage on a sliding scale down-wards—

It mayor may not be. But I cannot understand the minimum wage which is to go back. I want whatever figure may be expressed in this Bill to be the irreducible minimum, from which we shall begin to build up, and never to go down. Therefore, I am in favour of a figure, for I believe that if you simply leave it to the Wages Boards up and down the country, you would not, in some quarters, get even as high a minimum wage as 25s. a week, unless the competition for labour was so great that they were bound to pay that amount from the point of view of supply and demand. In this connection yet the law of supply and demand does not operate to that extent in agriculture as it does in other industries, even under war conditions. What is the proper figure? I venture to say that 25s. a week in these times is much too low. It is an absurdity that 25s. a week should be seriously proposed by the Government, in view of the circumstances of the times. Although I did not intervene in the discussion which took place on a previous Amendment, in which some very eloquent speeches were delivered in favour of a minimum wage for fair physical efficiency—and, of course, I did not share all the ideas then expressed—it was because I wanted to see these ideas expressed in some figure of hard cash, which could be put into the Bill as a start. And, if I showed a little impatience with my hon. Friend opposite, it was for the reason that I desired to get on with the Amendment now before us. It cannot be denied that during this War prices have gone up, and gone up to such an extent that a wage of 25s. now is only the equivalent of 14s. or 15s. before the War. If that be so, the wage of 25s. in the Bill gives no advantage whatever as compared with the wages paid, even in the worst paid agricultural districts in the country, before the War. I quite admit that there are variations and that there will probably always remain variations, but what I want to see fixed in this Bill is a figure which will be a great improvement in every district where agricultural wages are paid, and which will give the starting-point from which we may hope that the revolution of the countryside, the repeopling of the countryside which it is hoped will follow this Bill, will be made possible. The idea that a wage of 25s. is going to attract people back to the land is impossible of realisation.

I do not often trouble the House with personal matters, but it has been said once or twice this evening that I knew nothing of agriculture, that all my experience was in trade and connected with industry or industrial unions. To some extent that is true, but it is not entirely true. I am the son of an agricultural labourer. I had many relations in the country, and I have paid a considerable number of visits to the country, and I think that I know a little about agricultural conditions and of the actual agricultural workers themselves. I have been In their cottages many times. My father never had more than 23s. a week, even in the towns, so that I know something of what low wages are and what low wages in a large family are. Therefore I am not arguing merely from hearsay. I am arguing from the experience of having lived under conditions where low wages have operated in the earlier part of my life, the formative part of my life, and if this Committee think that they are going to force a revolution in agriculture, that they are going to put agriculture, so far as agricultural labourers are concerned, upon its feet by a wage of 25s. a week subject to deductions for allowances and things of that kind, they are very much mistaken. It may be asked, 1s 30s. adequate? I will not say that 30s. is adequate, but it is better than 25s., and I have always been willing to take that which I can get in existing circumstances as a start, and if I can get the Committee and the Government to agree to a minimum wage of 30s. at the present time I shall not put that as the ideal at which I am aiming, but it will do a great deal more to lift to that ideal than any number of speeches which can be made in this House. I am strongly in favour of a minimum wage. I am strongly in favour of putting in the Bill a figure, and I move that that figure be 30s.

I agree with the hon. Member who moved the Amendment that it is about the most important that has been raised in the discussion of this Bill. It is also one of the most difficult. I should like to say at once that I quite appreciate the difficulties. In a matter of this kind, the setting up of new machinery for an industry in which there has been so little control and regulation as in agriculture, it will be very difficult to get, straight away, anywhere near what we should regard, perhaps, as the ideal, and I certainly would be willing to put up with a system beginning rather far from an ideal one, in order to get he Wages Board thoroughly established, because I certainly believe that under the bright light of public opinion which I think will shine into these questions under the operation of the Wages Board, we shall gradually tend to a good and right system, even if we do not start off with things exactly as we should like them. I think there will be a gradual development of morality and conscience on these wages question and that a measure like this will do good, not only to labourers, but enormous good to the farmers, who would have to pay steadily higher wages. But in this matter. I cannot quite agree that the wage part of this Bill is a quid pro quo for the guarantee as to minimum rates. I cannot forget that before the War parties, including the Labour party, reached the stage almost of agreement on the question of a Wages Board to settle agricultural wages, that the question had got to be tackled and taken in hand early, quite apart from any question of fixing a minimum or anything of that kind. Parties were pledged, and if there had been no war it is as certain as the sun will rise to-morrow that a Wages Board would have been set up in the country long before now. In coming to discuss this question at present we cannot help feeling a little that one has the right to see that it is now being started at least as well as undoubtedly it would have been started long ago if the War had not delayed it. Whatever may be said now about the minimum wage, I do not think it should be regarded as the minimum, and my view is that the Wages Board should be free to fix any system or any figure according to what they think right. As a matter of fact once a figure is put into an Act it will be regarded as a standard rate and not as a minimum rate.

Farmers will feel that they have been monstrously treated if we begin the ordinary labourer at the higher figure to be inserted in the Act. Of course, they have to pay a higher figure for stock men and people of that kind, but they will regard 25s. as the standard rate, and there will be, unfortunately, an attempt to keep the rates down to 25s. as soon as it is named in the Bill. To some extent they will be justified in arguing in this way, that this figure was fixed by Parliament after full and thorough consideration of the question, and that it is the figure which they intend to pay. If that is the figure they intend to pay, then they will also claim to be entitled, as the cost of living goes down, to say that the minimum rate should decrease. Unfortunately, as I think, the hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment said one cannot say that it is as unimportant to fix a minimum in this as it might be in other industries where the laws of supply and demand and the forces of trade unionism and so on have fairer play. There is uncommonly little, or has been hitherto at any rate, of the working of the ordinary laws of supply and demand in agricultural industry. Once a standard is set it tends to remain the standard. Even when a good many of the farmers in a district have wanted themselves to get away from a low standard of wages they have not dared to oppose general public opinion in their district in favour of maintaining that standard, and I have known in the north of Somersetshire cases where farmers have gone to their labourers at Christmas time, and given them two or three sovereigns on condition that they said nothing about it, so that the other farmers would not get to know that they were secretly breaking the standard of 14s. or whatever it was for the district. I think every Member of this House would have been able before the War to go to almost any town in our southern or eastern, or certainly our western, counties, and find the rate for unskilled wages in the towns perhaps from 25s to 27s. per week, and within a morning's walk of eight or ten miles find agricultural districts where the rate of wage for the skilled agricultural labourer was still 15s. or 16s. The play of economic forces is nothing like free, and anything that we lay down as a standard farmers will try to make the operative amount to be fixed by the Wages Boards, and when they have got it it will be extremely difficult to get away from it, whatever the play of economic forces may be.

One understands, from having heard it so often, the position of the individual farmers. They frankly say, if we are required to pay more than a minimum of 25s. the agricultural industry cannot be carried on. That is really what their argument comes to. No proof of that can be made or has been made for the simple reason that they have not tried in most districts that level of wages. Where they have tried it they have found that the agricultural industry can be carried on perfectly well under that system and very often even better than in the lower-wage districts. The last thing a farmer can produce is a system of accounts which will show whether his industry can or cannot stand any particular rate of wages. I have found certainly that farmers constitutionally somehow are awfully stiff about small increases of wages. I have often heard it said they would much rather lose a sheep, which would be a loss to them of about £2 10s., than pay an extra shilling per week to the labourer, which would similarly cost them £2 10s. and from which they might get a good return in the value of the work done. No man who knows farmers can deny that they have been most awfully hard in this matter of wages, and one cannot attach too much importance to their statement that the agricultural industry will not stand any higher wages. To some extent it has a basis of truth—in this way: in many of our worst paid counties the standard of physical efficiency of the agricultural labourers who are left is low. Undoubtedly a good many of them may not be worth more than the comparatively low rate, but where that is so—and it is so to some extent—the responsibility is in the farmer himself and the farm system which he himself has made and fostered. The agricultural labourers in our Southern and Western counties are surely the result of generations of underfeeding and bad housing; and farmers can hardly complain because the residue of that class—it now very often is a residue, for the better men have left and have gone, some overseas and the others to employment in the towns—they can hardly grumble if the residue left in those low-wage districts are not up to the high standard of continuous effort that is the result of better feeding and better housing in other parts of the country.

I have always thought that when Wages Boards came farmers for some years would have to go through a difficult period. They would have to realise what other farmers who pay better have realised long ago—that better wages paid every day and all day long when they had succeeded in attracting, by better wages, a better type of labour, possessed of more stamina because they had been better fed and better looked after. One has not always got to look at the farmer's point of view. It is perfectly true to say that if we do not make things possible from the farmer's point of view he would not employ more labour. Surely, however, it is more important to keep in our minds that if we do not make things possible and attractive for the labourer there will be no labour for the farmer to employ? From the very moment that men begin, after the War, to make up their minds whether they are going back to the country or going to try to get work elsewhere—many of them who will want to turn from town to country life—but whether or not they actually are going to try their fortunes in the country, and try to get employment there, I think it is extraordinarily important that they should see that the standard we have offered them is something which they will regard as really adequate. I do not think we can dream of getting a sufficient amount of labour to go to the country unless we can show, on the face of this Bill, that we have laid down a standard which will really seem adequate to people who are reconsidering whether they will go in for country work again or not.

Surely, also, we have got to realise this—it is a thing which has come out quite clearly during the War—that the agricultural labourer is a skilled labourer, and that under no circumstances nowadays can we regard 25s. per week as being an adequate wage for a skilled man. One thing has come out in my mind rather remarkably, and I put it this way: Suppose a man has two sons, both of whom have good physical development and a certain amount of brains. One of them wants to go into the engineering profession, and the other into the profession of an agricultural labourer. The engineer will be trained and be a skilled and capable engineer years before the one who had taken to agriculture becomes a skilled and capable agricultural labourer. It is a skilled profession. Farmers have not been slow to urge that before the tribunals when they wanted to keep their men. We should regard the question of wages from the point of view of giving an adequate wage to a skilled profession. Surely, again, we cannot argue simply on pre-war rates? We do not know that the cost of living is going back to pre-war rates. I do not for a moment believe it will. I believe there is going to be a permanent increase in the cost of living. I believe there is going to be such an inflation of the currency that it will take us years to recover from, if we ever do recover from it. I believe that if we lay down rates which might have been all right before the War, and which might be all right again if we revert to pre-war prices, we may do something which may be very unfair and unjust to those whom our action affects.

In the light of those points, let us look at this figure of 25s. which is in the Bill. The only reason for that figure—and, I believe, the only real basis of it—was that that was the figure which Mr. Neville Chamberlain had hit upon as the wage which he would guarantee to those who joined his National Service scheme, and, therefore, that was used by the Prime Minister as his figure in the speech he made in February. I do not think that is a very strong recommendation considering the result of the National Service scheme, but, in any case, it was a pure shot. They found a figure supplied by another official for another purpose, and they named it as the figure which was going to be granted for the agricultural labourer. Let us look at it. The hon. Member for York (Mr. Rowntree) has used a figure which I think I gave him that the 25s. now only represents 14s. 6d. in pre-war days. I base that upon a return I received from the Board of Trade, which was made up to March of this year, comparing the cost of living in March of this year with the cost of living in August, 1914, and it is a careful average made up by the Statistical Department of the Board of Trade. They reckoned that in working-class households, allowing nothing at all for increase of rent—and there has not been an increase of rent—the cost of living had gone up by 70 per cent. between those dates. Of course, it has gone up more since then, but I am willing for the sake of argument to take this 70 per cent. If you reduce 25s. in that proportion you reach the figure of 14s. 9d. Let us look, therefore, at the 14s. 9d. in pre-war value. A deduction under the Bill is going to be made from the wages, whatever they are, on account of privileges, and I do not think I shall be overstating it when I say the full estimated value of privileges, excluding the house, may amount to 1s. 9d. a week. That would reduce the pre-war-value of what we are now doing to 13s. Then you come to the question of rent. If while we are about it we do not set up a system which will enable the agricultural labourer to pay a fair rent for his house, we shall be losing a very great chance of tackling the central problem of all the problems of rural life. It makes no difference. The wages increase by a certain amount in order to enable the rent to be paid. The farmer ought not to be worse off and the landlord ought not to be worse off, but, instead of a system of peppercorn wages balanced by peppercorn rent, we have a system of economic wages balanced by economic rent. On these lines I think it would be fair to say the rent used to be 1s., or 1s. 6d. a week, and that on pre-war value it is 4s. or 4s. 6d.— an increase of about 3s. to make the rent really anything of an economic rent—a rent for which a man could get a house somewhere else, and for which somebody else could build a house and the labourer live in it and pay a fair rent. If. therefore, we take that figure of 14s. 9d., and deduct the is. 9d. as the estimated value of privileges, and an extra 3s. in order to enable the labourer to pay an adequate rent, is the House really to be expected nowadays to give legislative sanction to a wage for skilled men which, excluding the value of privilege and rent, represents 10s. a week at pre-war value? That is the way I am bound to look at it, and I think it is pressing the House very hard, and asking us to do something which is bound to be really against our consciences, if that is the practical upshot of the present proposal of the Government. You may say if that is so, if the wage as paid now of 25s. or over is really worth as little as that, how on earth does the labourer now live? The answer is that although really wages have not gone up, but have gone down, yet the labourer manages to live because the other members of his family can easily find remunerative work, and make up the wage he earns to a living standard in that way. That will not always be so. We cannot trust to that state of things continuing after the War, and we cannot regard a wage of that kind as being anything like sufficient if prices keep up and the members of the labourer's family do not find such a good market in the future for their labour. Even during the War, in spite of the increases made in wages, thousands of men have been leaving the country districts and going into the towns because they find that the wages paid in the country were insufficient, and they could get better remuneration in the towns.

Supposing we had not had a war and we had been tackling this question of Wages Boards and the minimum wage as the result of the victory of one side or the other? We should have said that the labourer ought to have something like 18s. or 19s. as a minimum wage in cash—I do not think anybody would have ventured to put it lower than that. Then he ought to have 1s. 6d. as the value of allowances, bringing it up to 20s. 6d., and 4s. 6d. to enable him to pay an economic rent. The total of these three sums is 25s. If we should have argued in that way when there was no war—and we could not have worked out a figure much lower than 25s, if prices had remained as they were—it is extraordinarily difficult now to ask the House to lay down a standard at the present time when the cost of living is so very much higher. I feel the. difficulty of the matter, and I hope the strong and conscientious feelings we have expressed will be met by the Government. I realise that farmers will be intensely disturbed and put out if they are required to pay 30s. instead of 25s., which they think is going to be the standard. Rather than have 25s. in the Bill I would lay down some general words about the necessary standard of living, in accordance with the speech which the President made about an hour ago, and withdraw any figure altogether. As an alternative to that it is possible that the right hon. Gentleman might be willing to accept words of this kind, that the standard should be one which would have the same purchasing power as a wage of 25s. a week had under the pre-war standard of living. No one would object to that, and it would be what the House would have done if this matter had not come up during the War at all. If the Government is not in favour of either of these ways to meet this very strong feeling that a wage of 25s. is inadequate, I shall feel bound to vote for the 30s. to be included in the Bill.

I approach this matter as one who for many years has had very deeply at heart the cause of the agricultural labourer. It is six years now since I was instrumental, as one of a group of Unionist members, in publishing an anonymous pamphlet advocating minimum wages for agricultural labourers. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why anonymous?"] I will tell the hon. Member. The Member for Cornwall (Mr. Acland) said just now that before the War all parties were agreed that minimum wage legislation for agricultural labourers was desirable. All parties were not agreed, and that was the reason apparently for the pamphlet being anonymous. I venture to think that pamphlet and the action of the group of which I had the honour of being a member had the effect of really persuading the Unionist party that minimum wages for agricultural labourers were right. Before the War I was a party to two Bills introduced into this House in successive years which proposed a minimum wage for agricultural labourers, and on each occasion a number of us, in consultation both with agricultural labourers and farmers, and other persons interested in agriculture, very carefully; considered the question as to whether a rate named by Parliament or the Wages Board system was the better in the interests of the agricultural labourer, and on each occasion we came to the conclusion that in the interests of the labourer himself the Wages Board system was better than any fixed rate. I heard a whisper from an hon. Friend behind, "A Tory view." I do not think, from the point of view of the agricultural labourer, and generally on questions of social reform, that I shall be accused of undue Tory views. I am sure 'the Committee will forgive that rather personal aspect of the matter, because I am going to oppose the Amendment, and I want to try and persuade the Committee that I am very much in earnest in thinking that it is not in the interests of the agricultural labourer that it should be passed.

During the War I have had an extremely interesting job on a Departmental Committee to report as to the best means of promoting the settlement of soldiers and sailors in employment on the land in this country after the War and to devise what steps should be taken to ensure the greatest number of them settling on the land. I had the honour of signing a Minority Report with my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich (Mr. G. Roberts) and Mr. Strutt, whose opinion on agricultural matters I regard as almost pre-eminent in this country, and we took the view that there was a wonderful opportunity after this War for the nation to rejuvenate our agriculture and repeople our countryside with great numbers of ex-soldiers and sailors, provided that we were able to make the offer to the men sufficiently attractive in competition with the offer of the Dominions. Again, we had to consider the question of what was the best way of attracting them, and again we came to the same conclusion, that it was not advisable to have any fixed rate in shillings introduced into any Act of Parliament, but to provide minimum wage machinery which, would ensure that the rate of wages would be adequate to the existing circumstances of the time, and always continuing adequate, capable of progressive reform, as the occasion might demand. I venture very earnestly to put before the Committee that is the right view and as shortly as I can to put a few reasons in favour of that view. With nearly the whole of what was said by the Leader of the Labour party (Mr. Wardle) and by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Camborne (Mr. Acland) I agree in principle. We are all out for the same thing Practically every member of this Committee is out for the same thing—namely, to ensure the best conditions of life to the agricultural labourer. That object is one which may be achieved, in the view of one hon. Member, best in one way, and in the view of another hon. Member best in another way; but we all, I am sure, want the same thing, and we all recognise that it is subject to the same condition. The condition is that the farmer, who cannot be compelled to employ the labourer, shall be put in such a position that it is to his interest to employ him, employ him continuously, and to employ the greatest number of agricultural labourers continuously. It is that condition which we all have to remember. We all also have to remember it with peculiar urgency upon this occasion, when we are dealing with a Bill the primary object of which is to increase the food production of this country during the War.

It is obvious that if we take steps which will deter farmers from employing agricultural labourers, we are defeating the main object of this Bill. Roughly speaking, we are all agreed that, whereas for each 100 acres of grass the farmer employs one labourer, for each 100 acres of arable he employs four labourers, consequently, when asking the farmers of the country to devote their energies to increasing their arable area it is really in effect saying to them: "Please employ for every 100 acres of grass you had before, four times as many men as you had before." That being so, there being the plain obvious comment that you cannot compel a farmer to employ his men either all the year or at all, we must bear in mind that if we take a step which, whether truly or only as an effort of the imagination, will make the farmer think that his cost of production is going to rise to such an extent that it will not pay him to increase his arable cultivation, he will not do it. That condition of the employment of the agricultural labourer is one that we ought to remember, not as the absolute dominant fact, but as a very important fact in connection with this Debate. It is perfectly clear that in certain types of farming and for certain farming skill a very much higher rate than 30s. should be paid. At the present time in the Lothians 40s. and over is the regular rate of wages. Here, again, I come back to the fact that we are legislating not for imaginary conditions, or for imaginary people, or for imaginary farmers. We are legislating for actual conditions, for actual farmers, and for actual labourers. The conditions in the South of England, both as to the farmer and as to the labourer, are radically different from what they are in the North of England and in Scotland. That is one dominant fact in the situation. From the point of view of Scotland, Northumberland, Cumberland, and Durham, the 30s. minimum will mean nothing. It will be inoperative. I do not think it would have much operation anywhere north of the Trent—in the West Riding of Yorkshire, not much in Lancashire—but, roughly speaking, it is the northern part of England where it would have little operation, and it is only in southern England where it will operate. In considering the southern half of England, which is really the only subject of legislation so far as this Committee is concerned to-night, one of the main facts is that the farmers in the southern part of England have for a very long time past in some counties been used to paying a rate of wages which I have said for years past is too low from the point of the labourers and their efficiency, and therefore of the value the farmer gets out of them.

But one has to think what that means. One has to realise that the greater part of the farming in the southern part of England has been based upon this system of low wages, and it has had another result. When the labourers of a great many counties in the southern part of England have earned the small pittance which they regard as their ordinary allowance, and, consequently, as sufficient, they knock off work early in the afternoon. Put them on piecework, and they do not go on working when they have earned enough to make up what they think their ordinary daily or weekly rate, and the result is that a sudden rise of wages in their case does not produce efficiency comparable with the efficiency of the labourer of the north of England or Scotland. Experiments have been tried. Labourers for the north of England or Scotland have been introduced into the southern counties. An experiment was made in Hampshire, and it was hoped that by the example of the northern men the southern labourer would show an efficiency comparable to their own if they had equal wages. The result has not happened. The southern county farmer knows quite well the amount of work he is going to get out of his southern county labourer, and if you were suddenly to raise the wages in the southern counties by a big jump, the farmer would know, judging by his past, experience, that his cost of production would be raised to such an extent that he would refuse not only to increase arable but to go on with the amount of arable he had in the past. He would know that it would not pay him; he would not get anything like a comparable return in increased work from his men. That is a fundamental part of the case. I agree it is not a permanent factor. It is one that we can and must change, but it will take us a certain number of years. You will not do it all at a jump. If you were suddenly to put on a large increase, such as this 25s. or 30s., you would defeat the main object of the Bill, which is to increase the production of wheat and oats for 1918 throughout the southern half of England. I challenge those with agricultural experience. I feel sure that is the truth of the situation. Judging from the point of view of the labourer, the effect would be that you would kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. You would stop the farmer employing the labourer throughout the southern part of England.

The hon. Member quite appreciates my metaphor, though it is an inappropriate one. The labourer will only get his wages if the farmer employs him. If you adopt the Wages Board system you will get, I hope, in the course of a very few years, perhaps three or four years, a very large rise in agricultural wages throughout the South of England. With the motive of the Amendment of my hon. Friend (Mr. Rowntree) I have complete sympathy. In my own Bill I had something of the sort, but I do not believe it is really necessary. I believe that the word minimum rate is all that you want, and that every Wages Board will have sufficient sense to say, "We have got to see that the minimum rate is adequate to the cost of living." That will in itself mean that wages have got to be raised in some of the Southern Counties. In most of the Southern counties they have been raised, and in some to an extent which I believe means a wage which in its purchasing power is higher than the level before the War. I should like to illustrate that by a curious fact which came before me the other day as chairman of the Agricultural Organisation Society. We have been starting a number of women's institutes in villages in different parts of the country and encouraging war savings committees, and fifty-two of these institutes in the last twelve months had saved something a little under £5,000. There are small institutes in small villages showing that the agricultural labourers have been in a position to save a substantial amount of money. I do not say that they are all in the Southern counties, but a good many of them are. I urge very strongly that it is to the interest of the agricultural labourer that the wages should rise gradually. I appreciate what my right hon. Friend opposite said that wages ought to be higher to pay an economic rent for each cottage. I have been dealing in the last few weeks with the housing question. I had an addendum to the Majority Report about housing. I believe that the cost of housing is so great that rents will have to be graduated in the first few years after the War, and this is essentially one of the things that the Wages Board will have to take into account when considering what the rate of wages shall be. It is that elasticity which is the great merit of the Wages Board system. On the other hand, if you adopt the plan of putting a fixed minimum rate in the Bill, I believe there is grave danger of the minimum wage committees thinking that that is a guide as to what the rate should be. If the 25s. is left, I believe the minimum wage committees will say that the 25s. rate was fixed in January, 1917, that it has become obsolete—a mere bedrock minimum, and we do not think it is a minimum wage which we ought to fix having regard to the existing circumstances. Now, if this Committee in July, 1917, puts in 30s., it is a very strong indi- cation to the Wages Board that this Committee thinks 30s. is enough, and consequently there will be danger of that becoming the standard. I appeal most strongly to the Committee to maintain the elasticity of the system which I think is essential in the interests of the labourers.

The hon. and learned Member has put up a very forcible case from his own point of view, and has argued this matter with great ability, as he always does, but he has not impressed me very far as to the line he has taken. Earlier in the afternoon he announced, on some other point, that he was able to come here and speak with the authority of the officers of the National Union of Agricultural Labourers, and was able to say that he was putting their point of view in regard to that matter. I ask him now if he has consulted the officers of the Agricultural Labourers' Union in regard to this point he is now putting forward?

I will answer that. I did. I had a long talk with them last week. They said they wanted 30s., and I said I disagreed with them.

That answers that point. I rather imagined that the hon. and learned Gentleman might have consulted them on this, and that he would have told us whether the Union of the labourers, for whose interests he believed himself to be fighting, was backing him up by taking the same point of view. This is supposed to be a Bill, at any rate, for the encouragement of farmers, and one of the great points in regard to this measure is that it is going to encourage the farmer to give of their very best work. Surely the very least we can add to that is that the Bill ought also to be an encouragement to the labourers to give of their very best work, and I suggest that the figure that is put into the Bill, the figure of 25s. a week—which, judged by pre-war standards and conditions, is not worth more than 14s. or 15s. a week—is not a figure that is going to give any encouragement so far as the labourer is concerned to give of his best work.

The question has arisen again and again as to whether a figure ought to have been put in at all. I think there is some room for argument about that. I think it might be argued that it would have been better for this House not to have put in a figure at all, but to have referred the matter to the operation of the boards. But if you are going to do that, in order to get rid of any taint of political bribery, you would have to apply the same principle in regard to the figures relating to the prices to be paid to the farmers, to delete them from the Bill, and provide special machinery to decide what the farmer ought to receive. The same law that applies to labour ought to apply to the farmer as well, so that if you remove any figure in regard to the labourer's work you ought to remove at the same time all figures in regard to the sums to be paid to the farmer. On that basis some kind of compromise would work.

The Amendment we are now considering is, in my opinion, an exceedingly moderate Amendment, and, if anything, errs on the side of moderation, because 30s. a week to-day, judged by pre-war standards—which we must do—is certainly not £l a week, and is not worth more than 18s. or 19s. a week, taking a fairly liberal estimate of the matter. I say we are not asking for anything unreasonable when we ask for that. I ask, first of all, whether the farmers are able to pay these increased wages. When the War came, in July, 1914, the price of wheat was round about 30s. and 32s. a quarter. This Bill proposes that the price of wheat for the first year is going to be 60s. a quarter, and in point of fact British wheat has been changing hands at 80s. to 84s. a quarter during recent times. Therefore we say that the farmer under these conditions is well able to pay substantially increased wages, and I look forward to this fact: that there is a very big housing problem in front of the agricultural labourers and agricultural population, and without decent wages it will be impossible to get houses. The housing problem in the agricultural places was bad enough before the War. It was estimated that 200,000 new cottages were needed, but building has been held up for three years, and the housing problem, that we had before the War, has been very much aggravated by war conditions. What is more than that, the price of building material and so on has not only gone up, but the price will remain high when the War is over, and if the labourers are not ' going to get, not only increased but substantially increased wages, it will not only prevent them getting houses, but they will be unable to pay an economic rent for the houses they have got. We take an altogether too moderate view of what is going to happen. My view-is that the labourers in the countryside, when the War comes to an end, are going to ask, not for a few more shillings a week, but for an altogether different life than they lived before the War. They are not going to have a life of toil, bounded by the workhouse, with a pauper's grave, but they will ask to-live as men, with the freedom and independence of men. This Amendment, that we move is a poor, paltry step in that direction, and I hope the Committee will take its courage in both hands and will make this a mere starting point towards; a larger life on the part of the labourer. I believe this Amendment is just; I believe that the farmers can now pay the wage that is suggested; I believe that any wage less than this would be a scandalously sweated wage; and, on grounds of justice and expediency, I urge that this fact should recommend it to the Committee.

We are now on one of the most important and momentous Debates in the whole course of this Bill, and I think it is an exceedingly unfortunate thing that this discussion should goon to the small hours of the morning. I have risen for the purpose of making an appeal to the Government. I do not conceal the fact that I am somewhat influenced by the notice on the Paper with regard to the Irish subject—I would not, of course, make an appeal on that ground—but it is quite plain that it would be impossible to conclude this Debate within reasonable hours. In justice to a subject: of the most far-reaching importance, it ought not to be taken on at an hour" when it cannot be reported, and when we should probably sit till two or three m the morning. I would, therefore, make an appeal to the Government, and I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

The hon. Gentleman has made an appeal to the House and to the Government which, I frankly say, is a little embarrassing, and for this reason, that he is able to say, with justice, that there is an Irish subject to which he and his friends are entitled to attach importance, and do attach importance, and the chance of discussion is very inconsiderable if the further consideration of this important Amendment is persisted in to- night. At the same time, it would be futile to deny that this is a very great disappointment to those who are responsible for the conduct of this Bill through the House. We had hoped we could reach what I thought was an agreed limit to-night. We had all hoped—and I think it was almost formally agreed—that we might reach, not merely the end of Clause 5 to-night, but that we might also reach a decision on my right hon. Friend's proposal that Clause 6 should be postponed. Of course, the acceptance of this Motion completely destroys all those prospects. I do not mean to say that it is not a very great disappointment to those who relied on what was an informal agreement as to what was to be taken to-day, and I hope the Committee will not think it unreasonable, if we assent to the Motion to report Progress, in order that the important Irish subject may be discussed, that we should say that we ought to reach a decision on the whole Clause by dinner time—eight o'clock—on Monday night. I do not think the Committee will consider that that is unreasonable. We are very much disappointed not to get it to-night, and if the House will assent to what I venture to think is a very reasonable proposal, I will agree to the Motion to report Progress.

It is necessary that I should supplement what has been said by my right hon. and learned Friend by adding that there was no agreement, so far as I am aware—nor do any of my colleagues know of any agreement—as to the progress that should have been made to-day. Yesterday, certainly, we hoped that we might have made further progress than was made, and whatever help could be given was given from this side, but no undertaking was given by us, and I hope that the Committee will not run away with the idea that any understanding that had been arrived at was broken.

I hope that my right hon. Friend will not suppose that I was even suggesting that any agreement was broken. My recollection is that somebody asked us whether we would go beyond Clause 5, and we, said, "No; we are going to ask for a decision on the Motion to: postpone Clause 6." I hope that my right hon. Friend does not think that I was making any charge

I quite understands that there is no suggestion of that kind. As far as my memory carries me, inquiry was made as to how far the Government hoped to go to-night, and I think that what was said was exactly what was said by the Attorney-General. It would be absurd to have what is now the biggest, remaining topic in the Bill discussed in the middle of the night. This is of great, interest not only to those in the House, but to large numbers outside, and I understand also that it would be inconvenient to have a Division to-night. A Division should be taken in a full House, when members of all parties would have-an opportunity of expressing their views on a question which undoubtedly will cause them a great deal of trouble no-matter which way they vote, and which has many aspects that must be put by men who are well informed on the matter, and who regard it as the most vital part of the Bill. I think that we should assent to the Motion, and, so far as I can speak for any of my colleagues, we shall do our best to facilitate a decision being reached by dinner hour on Monday.

I would not attempt to interrupt this extremely important Debate, even with the Irish matter which I consider very important coming on, only for the fact that it appeared to me that it would be for the general convenience, of the House, and that it would not be a suitable thing to go on with this Debate in the small hours of the morning when it could not be reported, seeing that it is a matter which unquestionably interests the country.

In reference to the proposal that on Monday we shall terminate the Debate on this Clause by dinner time, I would point out that there is an important question to be discussed in reference to the rates of wages for boys, on which Amendments have been put down by the hon. Member for Liverpool (Mr. Leslie Scott) and myself. It is inevitable that there should be a good deal of discussion, and I do not see how we can pledge ourselves to closing the Clause by the guillotine by dinner time.

Not only was there no suggestion of the guillotine, but so great has been the self-restraint of the Committee on this very controversial topic that there was no question of the Government contemplating such a course. We admit that the subject is very controversial, and we shall on Monday trust to the indulgence of the Committee upon the view which we put before them. The importance of this question is generally admitted, as well as the topics referred to by my hon. Friend (Mr. Peto); still, having regard to this Bill as a whole, and the case put forward on its behalf, I think it will be conceded that I am not making an unreasonable demand on the House if I ask it to come to a decision about the time I have stated.

I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that nothing I shall say will interfere with his proposal.

Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

Intermediate Education (Ireland)

I beg to move, "That this House disapproves of that portion of the Rules of the Intermediate Education Board for Ireland which imposes the system of written examinations in experimental science by the inclusion of the words, obtain not less than 30 per cent. on the pass paper, or 25 per cent. on the honours paper, in the course or courses in which he presents himself, and must, in Rule 10 ( b )."

As time is of importance in Ireland as well as in Great Britain, I make no apology for bringing forward my Motion to-night. At the outset I wish to thank the House and the Government for the facilities which have been given and for the acceptance of the Motion to report Progress on the Corn Production Bill to enable me to bring it before the House at a reasonable hour. I also must take the opportunity of thanking the Government for putting the Motion at such a place on the Order Paper that it can be taken tonight. In the course of the last few months I have had several opportunities of bringing to the notice of the House the action of the Intermediate Board with regard to the teaching of science in Ireland. And, according to the Rules of the House, seeing that the rules of the Intermediate Board were made a few weeks ago, unless I take this course that I am now taking, of objecting to a part of the new rules within forty days of their being laid on the Table of the House, ipso facto, the rules would be passed into law, and until next year there would be no opportunity given to us of raising another protest against these rules. During the last sixteen years, that is to say up to last July, so far as the teaching of science in the secondary schools of Ireland is concerned, the method by which the Government Grants given to the schools that teach science satisfactorily has been by what is called the system of inspection. It is a system which is universally adopted, not merely here in England, in Scotland, and in Wales, but up to the present moment has been the practice in Ireland. So far as I am aware, in every part of the world where the teaching of experimental science is carried on, the only method under which Government Grants are given to schools for the teaching of science is by this method of inspection. But now, suddenly, without any consultation with the head masters of schools in Ireland, or with the teachers of science subjects, and without any consultation with public bodies, the Intermediate Board, a thoroughly irresponsible body, has suddenly decided that in addition to the system of inspection, it is going to introduce a system of written examination, thereby completely upsetting the established principle that has existed for sixteen years in Ireland with great satisfaction to all concerned, and introduce a method which would be absolutely scouted if introduced in England, Scotland, Wales, or any part of the civilised world. In order to enable the House to clearly understand the issue which I have put forward in my Motion, I propose to read the actual conditions which are set forth for pupils in science subjects in secondary schools. They are to be found in the rules of the Intermediate Board, which are obtainable at the Vote Office. Rule 10 ( b ) is as follows: pupil must obtain not less than 30 per cent. on the pass paper, or 25 per cent. on the honours paper, in the course or courses in which he presents himself. If my Motion is carried, the only result will be to delete those words which introduce the system of written examination which is superadded to the inspection and to return to the status quo which obtained for sixteen years in Ireland up to last year, and which has now been rudely and without consultation upset by the action of the Intermediate Board. To a written examination as such I have no objection. I frankly recognise that in the case of literature, history, and classics the written examination is absolutely necessary, but what I do object to is that in this case the written examination is brought in as a means of settling whether a school is entitled to receive the Government Grant. To have every pupil in all the secondary schools in Ireland subjected to identical simultaneous written examination on the very same day and at the very same hour, to test whether the school is entitled to this Grant is, in reality, examination fever run mad. I suggest that the action of the Board is opposed to the real system under which science can be properly taught in a school. That method of testing one pupil as against another, whether it be for prizes or for honours or in classical examinations or in universities by written examination is, I agree, absolutely necessary. But I do submit it is preposterous to suggest at this time of day, when it has been abandoned in every civilised country in the world, that in Ireland the Government Grant to be given to a school should be based upon not the position of the school as a whole in the teaching of science, but on the ability of individual pupils to pass a written examination.

Why is this being done in Ireland, and in Ireland alone? The reason, to those of us who know how educational affairs are carried on there, is perfectly obvious, and that is, that there is no co-ordination in the system of education in Ireland. Every body is a law unto itself, and the Intermediate Board is one of those bodies. It is an irresponsible body which has no advisory consultative committee such as you have in England and in Scotland for all your educational bodies, and which forms a link, and a very necessary link, between the Government Department concerned, the teachers, and the taught. Such a thing does not exist in connection with the Intermediate Board. In this instance it has gone against the opinion expressed publicly about the action of the Board by the head masters of schools, the science teachers, and by the Department of Agriculture, the Government Department which for sixteen years had been in charge of this system of inspection. It is a regrettable thing to see in these times, when the teaching of science is so important, that action should be taken by the Board which has control of secondary education in Ireland so inimical to the future of the teaching of science in our country. The Department of Agriculture was started, so far as its active operations were conecerned, in 1901. Up to that time, so far as the teaching of science was concerned in Ireland, South Kensington had a good deal to say. Then there were only six science laboratories in our secondary schools in Ireland. In sixteen years by the system by which the Department inspected the schools, and on whose inspection the Government Grant was paid, these six schools have increased to 265, with completely equipped laboratories. The last figures I have seen show between 14,000 and 15,000 pupils. Undoubtedly the system has worked well. You now propose a step which threatens the very foundation of the proper system of the teaching of science. I wish to make it perfectly clear that in superimposing a written examination the Board does not intend to interfere with the system of inspection by the Department. The idea is to work a double system—inspection by one Government Department and written examination by another. The natural result is that the written examination becomes the most important part from the point of view of both the teachers and of the pupil. It inevitably leads to cramming. A written examination will not be so good a test of the boy's ability as his work in the laboratory, which better exhibits his powers of application and initiative. But the Government Grant is based on the former, and I submit that it is flying in the face of scientific and educational opinion that such a change should be made.

To give an example of the indignation that has been raised in the north, south, east, and west of Ireland I may mention a resolution of the Christian Brothers, who have done admirable work in their ' schools. Indeed, it is out of one of these Christian Brothers' schools in Belfast that a Catholic boy passed under the old system of inspection to take up a position of chemist's assistant, and it was by his work, after the outbreak of the War, that the Zeppelin danger was practically brought to bought. That is the result of a system that the Intermediate Board is now seeking to cripple and confine. A boy, in his science training, was allowed to give play to his initiative in the laboratory or the workshop, and was not threatened with pains and penalties if he was not able to pass a written examination at the end of his course. He was allowed to have practical experience, and to develop those gifts which enabled the youth I have referred to make this wonderful discovery. I cannot help quoting in this connection a remarkable document which has been sent to the Chief Secretary by the science teachers of the Northern School in Ireland. I will not read the actual document, but I must refer to the names of some of the schools from which objections have come. They include the Royal Academical Institution, Belfast, the Victoria College, Belfast, the Methodist College, Belfast, the Royal School, Armagh, the Banbridge Academy, the Lurgan College, the Academy Ballymena, Foyle College, Londonderry—and, indeed, from all the intermediate schools in the North of Ireland where science is taught. The science teachers signed the memorandum, which was forwarded to the Chief Secretary, protesting against the introduction of a written examination. The same thing was done by the Headmasters' Association of Ireland, Catholic as well as Protestant. In fact, so far as I know, there has not been a single educational body in Ireland, and certainly no scientific opinion, which has been formed to take up the action of the Intermediate Board, and it is not unfair to suggest that, seeing that on that Intermediate Board there is no scientific expert, the action which has been carried out is the action really of classical pedants, who know that, so far as classics are concerned, the written examination is important. But when you come to deal with science, I submit it is wrong that the Intermediate Board, against all scientific opinion, should be allowed to cripple the future development of our science teaching. It is hardly necessary to labour the point that, in the teaching of science, practical experience in the laboratory is the most important thing of all, but if there is to be a written examination at the end of the school year it becomes so much the interest of the teacher and of the pupil to do well in the written examination that it is 100 chances to 1 that the practical experimental part which the boy or girl learns in the laboratory will take a secondary place, which, to my mind, is a disastrous thing. It is because this Motion of mine seeks to remedy this state of affairs that I venture to trouble the House with it.

It is important that in the development of our technical instruction, which has been extraordinarily well developed during the last fifteen years or so in Ireland, there should be a continual flow of young men who have been trained as boys in science in schools, so that our technical instruction may be imparted to boys who have already some practical knowledge of scientific experiment. We want to see not merely in the North of Ireland, where magnificent progress has been made in the development of technical instruction in the shipbuilding works, but we want to see also in the other parts of Ireland the development of engineering works—the development of science applied practically to industry. I do feel that if the Intermediate Board is allowed to carry out its programme, a fatal blow will have been struck at the proper teaching of the boys and girls of our country. The evil of it all springs from the fact that there is no co-ordination of the educational work of our country. An opportunity will be given to-morrow, perhaps, to the Chief Secretary to give a little light and leading on that subject and indicate a better provision for the children, but at present the Intermediate Board of the National Board stand by themselves as looking after primary education and the universities stand by themselves, and there is no co-ordination of those bodies. It is because of the absence of that co-ordination that the Intermediate Board is enabled to carry out what is, to my mind, a fell design against the best interests of science teaching. If the Chief Secretary in his defence of the action of the Board were able to cite similar action on the part of scientific bodies or education departments in this country, Scotland, or Wales, he might have something to go upon. The case of Germany, where scientific training has been developed to a great extent, affords no support what- ever for the action of the Intermediate Board. Seeing that this subject has been brought before the right hon. Gentleman several times in the course of the last month, and that he has had resolutions from teachers and heads of schools, I ask him to disregard this action of the Intermediate Board and to assent to this Motion, and thereby re-establish the code, as a result of which, instead of six schools carrying on proper scientific training, there are now no fewer than 265. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to reverse a stupid action on the part of the Intermediate Board and assent to the Motion which I have on the paper.

As the representative of a constituency in the north of Ireland, I wish to second the Motion which has been so thoroughly explained to the House by the hon. Member for South Kerry. The headmasters of practically all the intermediate schools in the north of Ireland are unanimous in protesting as strongly as they can against the change which is threatened in the scientific examination. I made representations to the right hon. Gentleman on this subject some months ago. The right hon. Gentleman could not then see eye to eye with me on this question but I hope he will now be able to allay the feeling in educational circles all over the country in reference to this matter. It is a question very largely of theory versus practice, and we want to have as much of the practical as possible in the education of our young if they are to face successfully the vast problems of life that are ahead of them in competition with others who are probably of a more practical turn of mind. The facts as they stand in regard to the history of scientific teaching in Ireland show that the system has been a great success, and it will be a great pity if we now go in an opposite direction owing to the action of a few reactionary members of the Intermediate Education Board.

I hope hon. Members will believe me when I say that if this was a case in which I thought I could properly and with due regard to Irish administration take the course which has been suggested I should take advantage of the opportunity offered now of doing so.

Because I do not think it would be a sound and reasonable course, and I hope I shall be able to satisfy the House that I should not be warranted in assenting to this Motion. The mover of the Motion spoke of what has happened as being the sudden decision of a body out of sympathy with modern ideals, and as being the introduction of a method which would be absolutely scouted in any other part of the civilised world. When he made those assertions I could not help feeling that he was indulging in a little exaggeration. The body to which the hon. Member refers, the Intermediate Education Board, is one under whose auspices there has been a remarkable and admirable increase in the appliances for scientific instruction in Ireland, and the setting up of a large number of laboratories is due to the direct encouragement given by the Board by the extension of grants and the provision of money by way of loans for the establishment and equipment of laboratories.

With regard to the sudden decision to impose the system of written examinations, it was taken before I was responsible, and it is now the greater part of eighteen months old. It has been in operation one year, and I confess that I have been a good deal relieved by finding the storm of criticism which was blowing when I first became Chief Secretary has abated a good deal. To hear that the coming into operation of this system is a method which would be absolutely scouted in any other part of the civilised world I confess is something which fills me with amazement. This is a question in which accuracy is required, and it is an examination of which one part is the answering of written questions. A very great man and the pioneer of every kind of scientific research— Francis Bacon—declared that writing maketh the exact man, and I do not know that that is any less true now than when those words were written. The hon. Member denounces the written examination in subjects which require accuracy, and certainly in criticising scientific subjects of this kind, exaggeration, if conspicuous at all, should be conspicuous by its absence. My hon. Friend was right in saying that in Ireland there is that lack of co-ordination in educational matters which leads to the waste of a good deal of educational effort and educational opportunities, but is that going to be corrected by the interposition of this House to reverse a decision upon such a matter as the method by which scientific examinations shall be conducted when that decision happens to be that of the very authority to which this House has entrusted the subject? When this House in 1878 set up the Intermediate Education Board, that Board was invested with a discretion in matters of this kind. Those who constitute that Board under the Commission set up by this House and by statute consider that this is the proper method of obtaining certificates in matters of scientific study. The challenge to me is that, not being an expert in education, and not being entrusted with this duty, but being a Minister of the Crown entrusted with the administration of Ireland, I should say to the people whom Parliament has entrusted with this matter, what shall be the method of examination in experimental science? I cannot assent to such a proposal, and that is a position which I cannot lightly take up. I want to call attention to one or two points in the indictment which the hon. Member has made against the Board. He complains that they do not accept a system of inspection in these matters.

That is not the case. I admitted that the system of inspection is to go on, but I complained that the written examination is to be superimposed.

That is what I said, that they are not content with a system of inspection, that they require something more, and that they require examination of the students. They require that, because Section 5 of the Statute, which brought them into, existence, directs them to require it, directs them to make a Grant upon an examination of the students, and having for some years, as the hon. Member truly says, entrusted the examination of students to another body—a very excellent and competent body, one whose primary duty is not the supervision of scientific studies—having for some years left the matter to that body, and then, coming to disagreement with that body upon the question whether what was being done was a performance of the Statutory duty of the body primarily concerned, the Board of Intermediate Education decided that it had no alternative but to require what it was advised was a sufficient examination of the students. There is no question about it that this is the matter of difference: Whether the Board of Intermediate Education shall feel itself war- ranted in giving the go-by to its Statutory duty, and accepting, at the suggestion of another Statutory authority in Ireland, a less scrupulous method of compliance with what is believed by its members to be their Statutory duty. The cause of the controversy over examination was stated in a letter which was written in the course of this controversy as being the question whether the Grant should be paid in respect of the class as a whole upon a system of inspection, or whether it should be paid upon a system such as the Act of Parliament directs, a condition depending upon the results of the public examination of the students. That was the difficulty, and that is where the controversy arose. In that state of the case, is it fair to the Board of Intermediate Education to treat the decision at which they have arrived as if it were some absurd and indefensible invention of theirs for the purpose of confounding the students? It is quite true that there was an objection offered, as the hon. Member said, from head masters and science teachers, and, at any rate, one representative of the Department of Agriculture concurred in the objection. The objection of the head masters and science teachers is, of course, a very natural and easily intelligible objection. This introduction of a written examination might have been the means of great interference with their mode of conducting their schools. I should think it is much more interesting and much more satisfactory to a head master and to a science teacher to deal with the test tubes and to encourage the boys in practical experiments in chemistry than it is to make them practise the mental application which is certainly brought about by written questions and written answers. It would be much more agreeable and interesting to them.

The head masters feel that in the written examination the tendency is to use the time of the scholars for the study of text-books instead of the practical handling of the tubes and using their judgment.

It is necessary for them to do both. The class must be competently instructed, and they have to be boys who can pass an examination if the Statute is to be complied with.

I am going to show what the practical benefits are as they are ascertained. I sincerely trust that nothing in the nature of protracted antagonism or disputation is going to be allowed to exist with regard to this matter. I am going to say something on the practical aspect of the matter presently. The Board of Intermediate Education is not a Department of the Government.

Yes. At any rate, they are the statutory authority in this matter, and they certainly do comprise some educational experts.

The hon. Member must not submit me to an oral or a written examination in that matter, because I have not prepared myself to pass it. Both those conditions ought to be satisfied. There ought to be a class which is properly instructed, properly used to all the apparatus for chemical experiments, and there ought to be boys who are able to give satisfactory evidence of having been sufficiently taught, and having a grasp of and being certain about the things which they learn. Every hon. Member who at school had to pass examinations will know that he could very easily slip through a good many oral examinations, but it was uncommonly difficult to slip through a written examination unless he had taken the necessary care to acquire certain knowledge.

I am not concerned with England, Scotland, and Wales, and I doubt very much whether my hon. Friend the Member for Kildare knows what the precise system is in England, Scotland, or Wales at the present time. I could have told him, forty or fifty years ago, but I do not know now. I have discussed this matter with men of practice and experience who are experts in this country, and they differ in their opinions. Men of equal eminence have supported one view and the others another view. In that state of things is it reasonable to call upon me here and now to join in a condemnation of the Board of Intermediate Education? Eighteen months ago a rule was drafted which was brought into operation and put before head masters, and everybody else concerned, and it has been in operation for rather more than a year. The first examinations under the new rule have taken place quite recently, but the results are not yet fully ascertained. Let me remind the House of what the rule consists about which complaint is made. It is a rule which requires a boy to get 30 per cent. of marks. That does not on the face of it appear a very formidable task or a very severe test. I have been at pains to inquire what is the result down to the present time, and the result of the undertaking of this burden, which was grudgingly undertaken, is that up to date the schools have passed 85 per cent. of their boys in science, which is something like 33 per cent. more than the proportion of boys passed in elementary Latin and a very considerably larger proportion than the boys passed in French, so that the examination has not proved either ruinous or embarrassing. That is the state of the case, and it is because of that knowledge, no doubt, on the part of the head masters and teachers, that the storm of disapproval has somewhat abated. The present position is that it was necessary to introduce a programmer of rules for next year, and that the Intermediate Education Board. having decided that this action was necessary, would not have been warranted and would not have behaved consistently if they had made a sudden change before the results had been ascertained. We are nearing the end of the first year of the operation of this rule. The results of the rule have not been either oppressive or embarrassing to the head masters or the teachers for the present. I suggest that this Motion should not be pressed on this occasion. I take the view that it is our duty to support the statutory authority unless it is shown to be wrong. If the results of this examination and the experience which has been had and the experience which will be had during the coming educational season should show that it is proper that urgent representations should be made to the Intermediate Education Board, in order that the Chief Secretary, or whoever may be in charge of a matter of this kind, may have some better warrant than yet exists for impugning the decision of the statutory authority in this matter, and a successor of mine is confronted with the same conditions, such representations would be made to the Board as would in all probability lead to a change of their system. That is a reasonable proposal. I do not think it is a reasonable proposal to make a sudden change in the midst of the operation of a step of this kind, and there is no reason for pursuing this matter or for irritating or exaggerating anything like a spirit of antagonism between the Intermediate Education Board, which on the whole is doing very useful work in Ireland, and the general body of the proprietors of schools and the science teachers whom they employ.

The Chief Secretary's reply is very unsatisfactory. It is characterised by the attitude of mind of the Chief Secretary, and of every English Minister who has anything to do with the government of Ireland. He notes at the beginning of his remarks the absolute unanimity of Ireland in objecting to this change. He says here are the Unionists in the North and the Nationalists in the rest of Ireland united in condemning an innovation in a most important branch of education, especially in modern times. "When the Chief Secretary, who, after all, although an excedingly well-meaning man, is an Englishman with a comparatively slight knowledge of Ireland, finds, in a matters that is vital to the greatest interests of Ireland, the education of the youth of Ireland, that the representatives of the people are unanimous in condemning a change made by a somewhat irresponsible body, I should have thought his duty would be to give effect to the expressed wishes of the representatives of Ireland. If the right hon. Gentleman felt it his duty to resist the expressed wish of the Irish representatives, he should at least be able to give some justification for the course which the Intermediate Education Board has taken and which he has stood up to support. But what justification has he given? If the right hon. Gentleman had been able to say that this system which has led to such a great increase in. the number of technical schools and in the number of pupils had been a system faultily carried out; if he had been able to persuade the House that the system is defective and the results obtained unsatisfactory, and that the pupils are not being properly trained, then all of us would conceive that he had some justification. He has not been able to say that. My hon. Friend the Member for South Kerry (Mr. Boland) was able to point out that in England, Scotland, and Wales it is the system of examination by inspec- tion that prevails. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that he has consulted experts, but, as I ventured to point out to him in the course of his speech, the only expert from whom he has quoted to us any opinion is his hon. and learned Friend the late Francis Bacon. If all we hear of Bacon is true, he had a great many preoccupations in writing Shakespeare's plays and in actively pursuing his profession as a lawyer. Certainly no one in these times would treat Francis Bacon as an authority on the method of conducting scientific experimental schools in Ireland. I do not know what Bacon's knowledge was of Ireland.

He is alleged to have been a great scientist, but I do not know that he was a great expert in the modern system of science which the science schools in Ireland are meant to carry on. I think the apology the Chief Secretary has made for asking the House to resist a Motion which condemns the innovation in regard to the conduct of the schools of experimental science in Ireland is too trivial for a Minister of the Crown occupying the position of the Chief Secretary. His answer is in every respect unsatisfactory. I feel that it is against the opinion and judgment of the schools and teachers of Ireland, and of those responsible for carrying on the system of education in that country and it has been shown here to-day that it is in complete opposition to the expressed wish of all the representatives of Ireland. I hope my hon. Friend will challenge the decision of the Chief Secretary by a Division in which I hope the House will unanimously support my hon. Friend.

I think there is a larger principle involved in this matter than simply the question itself. I was somewhat surprised at the attitude taken up by the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary. There is a demand made on a matter vitally affecting the practical education of Ireland, put forward by two Members representing both classes of political thought in the country, the hon. Member for Kerry (Mr. Boland) and the hon. Member for Tyrone (Mr. Coote). They rise, not as educational experts, but as the representatives of the public opinion of all sections of the people to demand that the views of those who are competent to determine this question should be acceded to, and not the views of an antiquated educational authority for Ireland which gathers its strength from no representative character it possesses but which is simply there as a body nominated by the Government of this country.

I listened to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, and I confess that he made one declaration that surprised me very much. He stated that it was his; duty in this House to defend everything indefensible in Ireland. That was the conclusion that I drew from his speech. He said "The Intermediate Education Board is the educational authority set up, and I am bound to defend it." I think that is a very extraordinary position for the right hon. Gentleman to take up. He gave us no reasons, except that he had consulted educational experts in this country, and in Scotland and Wales, I think, and he had been informed that there were differences of opinion in England and Wales amongst the educational experts. My opinion is that the right hon. Gentleman, not being an Irishman, has, according to the extraordinary doctrine that he has laid down, himself simply to come here to defend unrepresentative bodies, whether they are right or wrong. I would have imagined that the right hon. Gentleman would have acted according to the convictions, opinions, and experience of representatives who do know Ireland. The fact is that he does not know much about Ireland himself—not through any fault of his, but because he happens to be carrying out the traditional policy of governing Ireland as an Englishman, as no Irishman is competent to govern that country. It seems to me a very curious thing that a system has been introduced into Ireland—a novel and new system—in regard to intermediate education that does not exist in this country. If this is a good system, why is it not introduced here? And if it is a new system, we ought to understand what is the character of the men who have introduced it. Is there any scientific authority on the Intermediate Board; is there on it a single progressive Irish citizen? I do not know all the members of the board, but I know that on the board there are ancient and venerable gentlemen, most of whom are over three score years and ten years, and these are the gentlemen who are to make these remarkable changes and bring about these innovations in the practical education of the children of the Irish people. They are doing that in face of the repeated and oft-expressed protests of those competent authorities who are dealing with education. It is only another remarkable instance of the way in which Ireland is governed. It is all very good to say, "You Irish people, you unite amongst yourselves on anything, and you get what you want." Here is unity, in its most public sense, on a matter on which there is no principle involved at all, but which is simply a matter which primarily belongs to the Irish people to decide themselves. I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman's heart was in the defence he made of the Intermediate Board. I know no one who is more skilful than the right hon. Gentleman in defending causes that cannot be defended by persons less skilful than himself. It is one of the marvellous turns in the wheel of political fortune that the reactionary bodies in Ireland, whether educational or otherwise, are able to command the services of so skilful an advocate as the right hon. Gentleman. I would advise my hon. Friend to go to a Division on this question, and not to be prevented from doing so by the promise which the right hon. Gentleman has given, that he will reconsider it. It cannot be reconsidered for twelve months, and, at all events, we ought to register our conviction in this House that we entirely disapprove of the attitude he has adopted.

Question put, "That this House disapproves of that portion of the Rules of the Intermediate Education Board for Ireland which imposes the system of written examinations in experimental science by the inclusion of the words, 'obtain not less than 30 per cent. on the pass paper, or 25 per cent. on the honours paper, in the course or courses in which he presents himself, and must, in Rule 10 ( b ).'"

The House divided: Ayes, 20; Noes, 39.

Division No. 76.]

AYES.

[12.15 a.m.

Archdale, Lieut. E. M.

Joyce, Michael

O'Leary, Daniel

Crumley, Patrick

Keating, Matthew

O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

Devlin, Joseph

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Scanlan, Thomas

Dillon, John

Kilbride, Denis

Sherwell, Arthur James

Doris, William

King, Joseph

Flavin, Michael Joseph

MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

Hackett, John

McGhee. Richard

Boland and Mr. Coote.

Jewett, F. W.

Nolan, Joseph

NOES

Baird, John Lawrence

Dairymple, Hon. H. H.

Parrott, Sir James Edward

Baldwin, Stanley

Denison-Pender, J. C.

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Barnett, Captain R. W.

Dixon, C. H.

Roberts, George H, (Norwich)

Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick Burghs)

Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward

Rutherford, Sir John (Lanes., Darwen)

Bathurst, Col. Hon. A. B. (Glouc., E.)

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Sanders, Col. Robert Arthur

Bellairs, Commander C. W.

Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches. Altrincham)

Shortt, Edward

Brace, Rt. Hon. William

Hemmerde, Edward George

Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir F. E. (Walton)

Broughton, Urban Hanlon

Hermon-Hodge, Sir R. T.

Spear, Sir John Ward

Cator, John

Ingleby, Holcombe

Starkey, Captain John R.

Clive, Captain Percy Archer

Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

Talbot, Lord Edmund

Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

Jones, W. Kennedy (Hornsey)

Williams, Col. Sir Robert (Dorset, W.)

Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon)

Macmaster, Donald

Craig, Colonel James (Down, E.

Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Captain

Croft, Brigadier-General Henry Page

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

F. Guest and Mr. J. Hope.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

It being after Half-past Eleven of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order, until To-morrow, pursuant to the Resolution of the House this day.

Adjourned at Twenty-three minutes after Twelve o'clock.