House of Commons
Wednesday, July 25, 1917
Private Business
Barrow-in-Furness Corporation Water Bill,
Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Boaz' Divorce Bill [ Lords ],
Read the third time, and passed, without amendment.
Colonial Bank Bill [ Lords ] (by Order),
Third Reading deferred till To-morrow.
Glasgow Boundaries Act (1912) Amendment Order Confirmation Bill,
Consideration deferred till To-morrow.
County Officers and Courts (Ireland) Act, 1877
Copy presented of Order relative to Fees to be taken in respect of proceedings under the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Representation of the People Bill, Redistribution of Seats (Boundary Commission, England and Wales)
Copy presented of Letter amending Instructions in accordance with Resolution of the House of Commons of the 19th June, 1917 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Oral Answers to Questions
War
India
SEDITION TRIALS.
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he is able to state the nature of the special Courts before which were tried the persons mentioned by Lord Hardinge as returning to India from America to spread sedition; under what Statute or authority such Courts were set up; whether the proceedings were in all cases public; whether the prisoners were allowed the aid of defending counsel; if so, in how many cases were they so defended; what was the total length of all the terms of imprisonment imposed; and whether upon any persons sentences of death was passed?
In each trial the Court consisted of two Sessions—judges and an Indian pleader. The Courts were constituted under Section 4 of the Defence of India Act, 1915. The proceedings were public. The prisoners were in every case defended by counsel. The sentences of imprisonment passed on fourteen convicts aggregated forty-five and a half years, and seventy-seven were sentenced to transportation for life. Thirty-six sentences of death were passed, but in nineteen of these the sentence was commuted into transportation.
Is it intended to reconsider these sentences at the end of the War? Would not an announcement to that effect allay feeling?
My hon. Friend must give notice of that question.
Capital at Delhi
asked whether the Government of India proposes to spend more money on the creation of an Indian capital at Delhi, in view of the need which has been proved to exist for bringing that Government into contact with independent and unofficial opinion?
It is not proposed to abandon the policy of creating an Indian capital at Delhi.
Rupee Notes (Issue)
asked the Secretary of State for India whether the Government of India proposes to issue one and two-rupee notes; if so, will he say when; and if not, whether any, and, if so, what steps are to be taken, and when, to relieve the currency situation in India?
Preparations for issuing two and a half and one-rupee notes are well advanced. As the hon. Member is perhaps aware, Ordinances have recently been promulgated to secure that all gold and silver imported into India will reach the metallic reserves of Government. Other remedial measures are under the consideration of the Secretary of State in consultation with the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Should I be in order in asking when the Secretary of State will be able to answer questions?
After his return to the House.
Reforms
asked the Secretary of State for India when he proposes to outline in greater detail his scheme for Indian reforms?
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he proposes to introduce legislation or departmental reforms which will effect any or all of the reforms which he has already indicated as desirable?
It will be understood that having only recently taken up his duties the Secretary of State is unable at present to make any statement on this subject.
King's Commission (Natives)
asked the Secretary of State for India what steps he proposes to take in the direction of granting the King's commission to natives of India; and will he see that their training at Sandhurst or Woolwich is no part of the plan suggested?
The matter is under the consideration of the Government at home and in India, and the Secretary of State is not at present in a position to make any statement on the subject.
Will the hon. Gentleman bring the attention of the Secretary of State to the fact that if Indians are brought over here to be educated at Sandhurst and Woolwich they will be turned into revolutionists?
I will convey that to my right hon. Friend.
Mrs. Besant (Madras High Court)
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has received numerous petitions from India and this country relative to the internment of Mrs. Besant; whether he is aware that Mrs. Besant before her internment, both in meetings and through her paper, advocated the cause of the Allies, supported and urged others to support the War Loan, and raised 600 recruits for the defence force out of 690 in Madras; whether he is aware that the internment is having an unfavourable effect on British prestige in India; and will he cable out for an immediate inquiry into the object and effects of the internment?
The Secretary of State has already telegraphed to India for a full dispatch on the circumstances of the case.
Mesopotamia Commission
River Transport
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many of the gunboats built by Messrs. Yarrow and Company, Limited, for the Mesopotamia campaign were employed during the recent advance to Bagdad; whether these light-draft gunboats fully supplied all the Admiralty requirements for the navigation of the Tigris and for successful operations against the enemy; whether these gunboats are included in the condemnation of transport contained in the Mesopotamia Report recently issued; if he can state definitely whether these gunboats contributed materially to the successful advance on and capture of Bagdad or otherwise; and whether the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty were satisfied that Messrs. Yarrow and Company have fully complied with all the naval and military requirements for this special class of vessel in regard to construction, delivery, and use?
The Report of the Mesopotamia Commission deals with deficiencies in river transport and has no reference to these vessels, which are not transports, but commissioned men-of-war flying the White Ensign.
Is my right hon. Friend in a position to say whether those boats, which were specially built, have given complete satisfaction to the Admiralty?
I have said we are satisfied with them.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether they are propelled by oil or coal?
No, I cannot.
Indian and Egyptian Armies
asked the Prime Minister whether he proposes to take any steps, in accordance with the recommendation of the Mesopotamia Commission, to place the Indian and Egyptian Army under the direction of the War Office till the end of the War so as to secure unity of control?
The administrative questions involved are so many and so far reaching that it would not be practicable for the War Office to take over the Indian and Egyptian Armies during the War. Arrangements have, however, been made whereby unity of control is assured so far as operations are concerned.
Is that the view of the War Office, or of the Cabinet, or merely of the India Office?
It is the view of the Cabinet and it is the view of the General Staff.
Is it the view of the War Office?
asked the Prime Minister whether he will act on the recommendation of the separate Report of the Mesopotamia Commission respecting the objects of the censorship at the front?
I would point out that information as to the moral or physical condition of troops is of value to the enemy. It would be impossible to amend the Regulations in such a way as to ensure that only those complaints which passed by the Censors which (a) were well founded, (b) were unlikely to fall into the hands of the enemy in transit, and (c) were addressed to persons competent and likely to make good use of the information. I doubt, therefore, if any relaxation of the rule of reticence is desirable.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it was the exercise of the censorship in Mesopotamia that prevented news of the happenings there getting home or even to India? May I ask my hon. Friend if he will read the Report and see whether some arrangements cannot be made to prevent the censorship being used for wrong purposes by general officers commanding?
I have read the Report very carefully and my military advisers at the War Office tell me that they have found no reason of any kind which shows that the censorship was wrongly used by the commanding officers.
Will you look at the evidence of the different officers?
Lord Hardinge
asked the Prime Minister whether Lord Hardinge's request for a trial was refused; whether the military officers involved in the same scandals were granted the privilege of trial without any request on their part; and why there was such a difference in treatment?
I can add nothing to the statements already made on this subject.
Is it not desirable to give a man that for which he asks and not that for which he does not ask?
I am afraid my hon. Friend, in his own experience, will have found that is not always the case.
Questions
Mid-Scotland Canal (Plans)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the plans of a Mid-Scotland Canal at present in the possession of his Department were ordered at any time by that Department to be prepared; has payment for them to be made by the Admiralty; and, if not, how is the preparer of the plan to be remunerated for his work?
The plans were not ordered by the Admiralty and have not to be paid for by them. There is no information regarding the last part of the question, and it is not a matter which concerns the Admiralty.
May we take it that these plans were volunteered to the Admiralty, and can others send plans in?
Yes, certainly.
How can the right hon. Gentleman say that the Admiralty is not concerned in this question if Rosyth Dockyard is at one end of this projected canal?
I did not say that. My hon. Friend's point is that a certain firm seat us plans, and cannot anybody else send plans, and I say, yes.
Merchant Service (Silver War Badges)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his Department raise any objection to the necessary alteration in the Royal Warrant to enable officers and men of the merchant service incapacitated from further employment by enemy acts to wear the silver war badge; and, if not, whether he will see that this is communicated immediately to the Board of Trade, so that it may be given effect to?
The Admiralty raised no objection to the proposal referred to in my hon. Friend's question. Their concurrence was communicated to the Board of Trade in April last.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I was referred two days ago to the fact that it was the Admiralty and the War Office who had differed from the Board of Trade?
I am afraid that is a misunderstanding, but I will look into it.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his Department raise any objection to the necessary alteration in the Royal Warrant to enable officers and men of the merchant service, incapacitated from further employment by enemy acts, to wear the silver war badge; and, if not, whether he will see that this is communicated immediately to the Board of Trade so that it may be given effect to?
I think my hon. Friend should put this question down to my right hon. Friend, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Board of Trade stated that the War Office and the Admiralty form the obstruction and difficulty of granting the right to wear these silver badges. Therefore I will repeat the question when the hon. Gentleman has had time to consider it.
I made such inquiries as I could this morning, and I was informed that this is a question which should properly be put to my right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty.
Naval Rations and Allowances
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what is the present scale of daily rations and allowances for the lower deck; and whether any complaints have been received of the insufficiency of such rations and allowances?
As this is a long answer, perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
In view of recent happenings on certain of His Majesty's ships, is the right hon. Gentleman at least prepared to give this matter serious consideration, and to consider the increase of pay of the lower ratings?
That is all in the answer. It deals with the scale of daily rations and allowances of the lower deck. If the hon. Gentleman waits to see the answer, he will find that I have dealt with them fully.
H.M.S. "Vanguard" (Explosion)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether an arrest has been made in connection with the explosion on His Majesty's ship "Vanguard"; if so what grounds there were for the arrest; and whether there is supposed to be any connection between the explosion on His Majesty's ship "Vanguard" and the explosions which took place on His Majesty's ship "Princess Irene" and His Majesty's ship "Bulwark"?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The second part, therefore does not arise. With regard to the third part of the question, the cause of the explosion is not yet known, but a full inquiry is being held. I desire to take this opportunity of expressing as the Board has already done to the Commander-in-Chief, our deep sense of the loss we have sustained by the death of the greater part of this gallant company, and to express also the sympathy of the Board with the relatives of the officers and men lost.
Are we to understand that no one has been detained on suspicion by the Admiralty in connection with either of those explosions?
My hon. Friend must read the answer. The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The second part, therefore, does not arise.
Military Service
Conscientious Objectors
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether Mr. Dickes, a conscientious objector, though he has left the Admiralty, still draws the £500 a year, or some of it, which he received when at the Admiralty?
No, Sir.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the five sons, ranging in age from thirty-two to eighteen, of Mr. G. A. Dunn, head of the firm of Messrs. Dunn and Company, hatters, have obtained exemption from military service on the ground of conscientious objection, and are now engaged in growing fruit on small holdings controlled by their father in the neighbourhood of St. Albans; whether this firm has some ninety or more shops, and that conspicuous in the windows of these stores are military headgear and other Service accoutrements; that some of these young men are receiving an allowance from their father; will he make such representations to the Government as will make it certain that no Government contracts of any kind are given to this firm; and will he explain why men who shirk their duty to the country in the way these young men have done are allowed to continue in such employment while their fellow men are risking their lives at the front?
The position of Mr. Dunn's youngest son is not known to the War Office, but inquiries are being made. The other four sons hold certificates of exemption granted by the Hertfordshire Appeal Tribunal. Any ques- tion affecting the action of tribunals should, I think, be addressed to the Local Government Board. This firm was provisionally noted on the War Office list for caps in December, 1914. They have not, however, held any orders, and were removed from the list in May last, as they were unable to respond to invitations to make Service dress caps.
Will the hon. Gentleman take care that this firm never has another order from the War Office in view of the fact that these five sons are disgracing themselves? Will the hon. Gentleman consider the question of sending these men to Mesopotamia or East Africa?
As my hon. Friend knows perfectly well, I do not hold any brief for any conscientious objector, but these men have got a statutory right, which they have exercised, under the Acts passed by this very House, and I cannot interfere.
Does the hon. Gentleman mean that he cannot send them to Mesopotamia or East Africa?
Of course, I cannot. These men have exercised their right under the Military Service Act, and have appealed to the tribunals on the ground of conscientious objection. These tribunals are not within the jurisdiction of the War Office. They can exercise their own right and give their own judgment.
asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the advisability of placing all men who are excused military service on the plea of conscientious objection under the control of the Committee of Employment of Conscientious Objectors, seeing that in the present circumstances there is conflict of policy between the views of the Pelham Committee, the tribunals, and the Committee of Employment for Conscientious Objectors as to what constitutes work of national importance?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. I have made careful inquiries into the matter, and do not find that there is any such conflict of policy as is mentioned in the question. The Government do not propose to adopt my hon. Friend's suggestion.
asked the Home Secretary how many days Mr. Clifford Allen has spent in the punishment cell since he entered Winchester Prison on 1st June and before his removal to hospital on 4th July; on how many days during that period he was kept on bread and water diet; what exercise he was allowed during the time under punishment; by whom were the sentences imposed; and what intervals elapsed between the sentences?
I am having inquiry made in this case, and will let the hon. Member know the result as soon as I am in a position to do so.
Would it not be reasonable to release Mr. Clifford Allen, who is a man who notoriously has been subjected to cruel treatment?
I cannot accept the hon. Member's description. I am inquiring into the whole matter.
Is not this gentleman's propaganda notoriously dangerous, and is he not better kept in prison?
Conventions With Allied States
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any conventions with Allied States other than Russia have now been concluded or are expected to be immediately concluded for the mutual conscription for military service of British and Allied subjects?
Negotiations are in progress with the French and Italian Governments on the subject.
Royal Field Artillery (Late Gunner John Dickson)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that two policemen called to arrest the late Gunner John Dickson, Royal Field Artillery, Military Medallist, killed in action 9th August, 1916, after he had been buried for four months; and whether the War Office keep any careful note of casualties and take any steps to prevent the feelings of the relatives of such men being harrowed by such action?
I was not aware of this case, which I can assure my hon. Friend did not result from any disregard for the feelings of the relatives concerned. If I am furnished with the necessary particulars and address, I will see that inquiries are made and that an appropriate communication is addressed to Gunner Dickson's relatives.
These incidents are occasionally un-avoidable, owing to the intervals of time between the outbreak of war, the introduction of the Registration Act and of the Military Service Act, and also owing to the fact that many men had enlisted into the Territorial Force during this interval and proceeded overseas with a Regular unit.
Careful note is taken of casualties in the field, but, as my hon. Friend will understand, it is sometimes necessary to institute inquiries with a view to establishing a man's position with regard to the military register.
I need hardly say that every possible step is taken to avoid occurrences of the nature which my hon. Friend has brought to my notice, but I may remind my hon. Friend that John Dickson is a very common name, that there is for British subjects in this country no system of identity books, and that it is in some cases humanly impossible to establish the identity of a man who becomes a casualty with that of a man who attested in one place and thereafter enlisted somewhere else.
I know of a case in which an individual attested in five different places and enlisted at a sixth. He was afterwards discharged, and then complained about the action of the recruiting authorities in sending him a calling-up notice on each of his attestations.
Is my hon. Friend aware that the Local Government Board keep an up-to-date register of all the people in this country, and have told the House that they do so; and has the War Office not access to this register?
I believe there are cases where men who are serving are not registered, and probably this may be one of them.
Re-Examinations
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War what is the average time taken by Colonel Butt, of the Northern Command, in passing men front one category to another; whether he holds the record; whether he reclassified sixty-three men in twenty-five minutes at Easter Road, Edinburgh, one day last week; and whether, in view of the revelation of the Select Committee, any steps will be taken to provide Colonel Butt with more assistance, so that his work may not be so hurried and he can do justice to himself?
I will inquire into the circumstances, and inform my hon. Friend as soon as I can.
Ministers of Religion
asked, approximately, how many ministers of religion of different denominations have been called up by the War Office; if any special favouritism has been shown to any particular denomination beyond the Christadelphians; and, if not, why the War Office calls up a minister in Shetland, leaving a large district unprovided with the usual facilities for marriages, christenings, burials, and the consolations of religion?
I am aware of only one case of a man being called up for military service in which there was no doubt that the man was a regular minister of a religious denomination. Particulars of this case were given in my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthenshire West on the 19th July last. In certain doubtful cases the question has been decided by a civil Court, as provided by the Military Service Acts, 1916. I have no knowledge of the case of a minister being called up in Shetland, and if my hon. Friend will supply particulars I will have immediate inquiries made.
Recruiting (Ireland)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is aware of the means adopted to get Irish tradesmen to join the Army; if he is aware that advertisements are issued asking for recruits for the Royal Engineers and Mechanical Transport, and that when they have been a few weeks in these regiments these men are transferred to Line regiments, where their abilities as mechanical engineers are not used or required; if he is aware that these transfers mean a loss of pay to themselves and their families; and if he will state why men whose services are required for shipbuilding and other work of immediate national importance are so deceived by recruiting posters?
I am aware that advertisements have been issued both by the Royal Engineers and the Army Service Corps (Mechanical Transport) giving par- ticulars of tradesmen required and rates of pay. I am not aware, however, that skilled mechanical engineers who have enlisted in consequence of these advertisements and passed their trade test have later been transferred to Line regiments. If my hon. Friend can supply me with specific instances where such action has taken place, I will have the matter promptly rectified. Instructions have been issued that seamen, who are urgently required for Inland Water Transport, and skilled mechanics, who are neither attested nor liable for military service under any Military Service Act or Convention made under a Military Service Act, will be allowed to enlist and remain in the unit of their choice. Soldiers compulsorily transferred from one corps to another owing to the exigencies of the Service or on grounds of medical unfitness contracted in and by military service retain the rate of pay and allowances of which they were in receipt of at the time of transfer if more advantageous than those of their new corps.
Medical Officers
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether the contracts entered into for one year with medical men whereby they would serve for that length of time will be carried out by his Department, and the doctors brought home on the completion of the service contracted for?
Every medical officer whose contract is for one year is allowed to return home on expiration, unless he elects to renew in the area of operations where he is serving.
Will pressure be brought to bear upon these medical men to renew their contracts? Will they be actually free men to come home?
Yes, so far as I know.
Attested Men
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in spite of the repeated promises of Ministers during and since the passing of the Military Service Acts that men who attested voluntarily should not be less favourably treated than conscripts, an attested man has been declared to be without legal remedy and cannot procure a writ of mandamus from the King's Bench Division to compel a tribunal to hear his application for exemption in the same manner as a conscript can; and will he take steps to remedy this inequality of treatment?
This is a decision of the High Court of Justice, and it could only be reversed by passing legislation. There is no desire whatever on the part of the War Office to differentiate cases to the disadvantage of attested men. I have made inquiries, and I am informed that all cases which have been brought to the notice of the Local Government Board in which legal proceedings have been brought against tribunals by attested men have been investigated by the Local Government Board, and in the only case in which the Board has been advised that an attested man's case had not been properly considered the Board has approached the War Office and the case was reheard. I have no doubt that this procedure will be followed in any similar cases which may arise in the future.
Do I understand that the Government are not prepared to bring in fresh legislation to put the attested men legally in the same position as the conscripted men?
I think my answer shows that without legislation we are placing them in the same position.
As far as that can be done without legislation?
Review of Exceptions
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether those men called up for re-examination under the recent Act before 5th of July, when the new Order about the payment of 2s. 9d. of expenses was issued, will be paid this sum in the same way as those examined after that date?
Yes, Sir.
Recruiting
Lord Derby's Statement
( by Private Notice ) asked whether, in view of the statement made by Lord Derby yesterday to the Committee of Inquiry under the Military Service Acts, instructions will be given to military representatives and tribunals throughout the country to adjourn pending appeals with regard to men classified B3 or C3 until the new policy is announced?
My hon. Friend only gave notice of this question a few minutes ago, and I have not had time to consult my Noble Friend the Secretary of State for War. In any case it would not be for me to give instructions to the Appeal Tribunals, but I will consult the President of the Local Government Board and see what can be done.
Will the hon. Gentleman go a step further and see that no men are recalled and examined under the Review of Exceptions Act until this new authority is set up?
I will consider that also.
Questions
Persia
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether communications have passed between the Provisional Government of Russia and Britain concerning the financial control of Persia; whether Persia or the Cabinet of Ain-ed-Dowleh has made any representations aimed at an acknowledgment of the independent rights of Persia; and whether it is the joint Russian-British policy as regards Persia to seek a settlement of Persian affairs by recourse to the principle that nationalities have the right to decide their own destiny?
The answer to the first two parts of the question is in the negative; as regards the last part, it has always been the policy of His Majesty's Government, and it will no doubt be the policy of the new Russian régime, to respect and further the independence and integrity of Persia.
Food Supplies
Imports from Holland
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the statement that Holland in 1916 sent us only 22,932 tons of foodstuffs; and whether he can state what were the quantities of foodstuffs exported by Holland to the United Kingdom in the first six months and the last six months respectively?
I am much obliged to the hon. Member for calling my attention to these figures. The following figures are taken from the Dutch official statistics with the exception of the figures for bacon and condensed milk, which are included in the totals, and which are taken from the British Customs Returns, as the commodities are not shown separately in the Dutch statistics. Vegetables, other than potatoes, are not included:
Tea (Dominion Imports)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, seeing that Australia has prohibited the import of China and Java teas in view to help Indian and Ceylon growers who are at present, to a large extent, deprived of the Home market, he will consider the advisability of suggesting to the Government of Canada the propriety of taking similar action in view of the fact that quantities of Java leaf are now being imported into that Dominion?
I do not think that representations could usefully be made to the Canadian Government who, if the facts are as stated in the question, will doubtless give the matter due consideration. I may add that during the year ending 31st March last, which is the latest period for which I have statistics, the imports of Java tea into Canada cannot have exceeded 1 per cent. of the total imports of tea.
Is the amount very much on the increase at the present time?
At any rate, up to March last the amount was on the decrease rather than on the increase.
Corn (Government Purchases)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is estimated to be the probable weekly cost to the Exchequer of making good the deficiency between the price at which corn is bought by the Government and the price at which it will be sold to the consumer?
I have been asked to reply. It is not possible to give a definite estimate on the point raised, because this depends upon the price at which it will be possible to buy wheat in America and Canada. This is not yet settled.
Will the Leader of the House say whether, having regard to the importance of this question of supplying bread under cost price to all the community, he will give the House an opportunity of discussing it before it is brought into operation?
I understand that it can be discussed to-day or to-morrow.
Beef (Army Supplies)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that from January this year until May no inspection of beef for the Army in the Belfast military district was permitted, that the offal only was submitted to the inspectors, and that tuberculous beef was supplied during that time; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
I have caused further inquiries to be made of the military authorities in Ireland, and am informed as follows: Inspectors are on duty the whole time meat is being slaughtered. They examine all meat and offal and have done so regularly. In addition to this inspection, the Command meat expert has also carried out periodical inspections. It is claimed by the military authorities that under these circumstances it is impossible for tuberculous meat to be issued to the troops.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he will cause a sworn inquiry to be made into all the circumstances connected with the supply of mess beef to the Army in the Belfast military district?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for the Harbour Division of Dublin on th 17th instant.
Could not the right hon. Gentleman hold a sworn inquiry into the whole circumstances of the supply of beef in the Belfast district, which extends to seventeen military stations, and is it a fact that this meat is killed in Belfast and no person sees it but those who slaughter it, and it is then sent away by wagons to the different stations?
I cannot go beyond the question on the Paper. I am asked whether I will cause a sworn inquiry to be made into all the circumstances. I do not think that is necessary.
I think some of my correspondents would be willing to give evidence on the subject.
Having regard to the fact that this group of persons in Belfast supplies not only the seventeen districts alluded to by my hon. Friend, but also The Curragh and other military stations, and that dissatisfaction is expressed all round, would it not be worth while to have a sworn inquiry into these allegations?
No. The arrangements for the supply of beef in Ireland are under examination now, and I do not think there is anything to be gained by a sworn inquiry.
Has not the War Office come to the conclusion that they are going to let everyone in Ireland know that the proper way to buy meat for the Army is by measurement by square and compass?
Having regard to the fact that this is the first time the right hon. Gentleman has stated that this matter is under consideration, will he at the earliest possible moment give us, who are interested in the matter for the sake of the people whom we represent, information as to the results of the inquiry that he is making?
Yes, certainly. I have said before that the whole thing is being examined and looked into.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether the name of Mr. Cunningham, of Ocean Buildings, Belfast, appears in meat contracts dated November and December, 1916; and if he will explain on what grounds an adviser to the military authorities is allowed to appear also as contractor?
I am informed that no contract for meat for the troops was made with Mr. Cunningham in November or December, 1916.
Is it possible that this man Cunningham had no contract in his name in November and December, 1916, and that now he is the sole adviser to the Government for this tremendous number of cattle which are now purchased for the Government?
I can only give the information that is given to me, that no contract was made in these two months with Mr. Cunningham for the supply of meat.
Were contracts made at any time with him, and will the inquiry now being entered upon be directed towards ascertaining what is the connection between the actual buyers and Mr. Cunningham, and I hope he will not leave out—
The hon. and learned Gentleman is not asking a question.
Seed Corn
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture what provisions are being taken to secure an adequate supply of seed corn, especially wheat, for the harvest of 1918?
Arrangements have been made to ensure a reserve of 1916 seed wheat for early autumn sowing should weather conditions delay threshing. Arrangements have also been made to reserve for seed the produce of suitable but less common varieties of wheat of the 1917 crop. No scarcity of the more common varieties of seed wheat is anticipated, provided that the machinery and labour necessary for threshing are available. The Department have agreed with the Ministry of Food to reserve for seed the available supplies of winter oats and rye, until the seed requirements of growers of these crops has been adequately met.
Will the distribution be made direct by the Board or through merchants, as before?
I think in regard to the 1916 seed wheat it will be through the Board.
Motor Tractors (East Sussex)
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether his attention has been called to the complaint of the East Sussex War Agricultural Executive Committee that they are unable to obtain tractors or horses, and that reflections are being made upon the action of the committee in urging for the breaking up of land and having no adequate means of machinery and horses to carry their plans out; whether he is aware that at present in East Sussex there are only four tractors available, while in a neighbouring county there are forty-eight; whether the committee have formerly protested to the Board of Agriculture that unless they are enabled to give facilities to farmers without delay the work they are endeavouring to discharge is practically futile; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
The East Sussex Agricultural Executive Committee wrote to the Department on this subject on 17th of the month, and a reply was sent on the 21st explaining the full position to the committee. I propose sending the hon. Member a copy of the Department's reply, which is too long to quote in full, but which I think he will agree explains the situation.
Milk (Slaughter of Cows)
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he is aware that, owing to the high prices obtainable for beef, the shortage of labour, and the high price of feeding stuffs, a great number of milch cows are being dried on and sold for slaughter; and whether the Government will take steps to stop this state of affairs, in view of the danger to the milk supply of the nation and the breeding of stock?
The information in the possession of the Board does not point to a large decrease in the number of milch cows. The whole question of the milk supply is being gone into at the present time by a Departmental Committee, of which the hon. and gallant Member for Plymouth is chairman. The Board is represented on that Committee, and the hon. and gallant Member may be assured that the position will be closely watched and every action that is possible taken, in consultation with the other Departments concerned, to prevent the dangers referred to.
asked if the 1917 Crop Restriction Order, dated 13th July, covers also standing corn sold by auction; and will the buyer of such corn be unable to sell the straw without a permit?
I have been asked to reply. The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The disposal of straw is under the control of the Army Council.
Are we to understand that the auctioneer can follow the usual practice of selling crops, while the buyer is subject to restrictions? The auctioneer does not need a permit, I understand.
Those are points not covered in the question. The answer was in reply to the question on the Paper.
Questions
Rhodesian Natives (War Service)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether large numbers of natives in Rhodesia have volunteered for war service; and whether he can give an assurance that no Order in Council will be issued during their absence which will in any respect invalidate their land rights in the reserves or otherwise?
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether native regiments have been raised in Southern Rhodesia for military purposes, of which the first regiment of 500 men have acquitted themselves to the satisfaction in every way of the military authorities now in German East Africa; whether other regiments are either in training or now on their way to that territory; and whether he is prepared to give the reasonable undertaking that no local action will be taken or approved by His Majesty's Government which will affect the land rights of these men during their absence on active service?
It is correct that a number of natives have been recruited for war service. I understand that the conduct of the first battalion has given satisfaction and others are being raised. As will have been gathered from the reply to a question on the 17th, there is no question of the immediate issue of an Order in Council, nor will any Order be issued at any time without making adequate provision for safeguarding native interests.
Can the hon. Gentleman give us any sort of guarantee that the land of these natives will not be taken away from them while they are on active service?
I think if he will read my answer he will see that it covers the point.
Court-Martial, Hounslow (Royal Flying Corps)
asked whether the court-martial held at Hounslow on the 19th June on three officers of the Royal Flying Corps has yet promulgated its decision; and, if not, what is the reason for the delay, and have the officers returned to duty?
I am afraid that I am not able to add anything at present to the answer which I gave my hon. Friend on Monday last. On that occasion I said: "I understand that these proceedings have now been promulgated, but I cannot make any definite statement until the proceedings have been returned to the War Office after promulgation. One of the trials resulted in an acquittal; the other officers would return to duty in the usual course after the promulgation of the sentences."
In view of the large number of questions I have asked, would the hon. Gentleman try and expedite the returns of these courts-martial?
Certainly, I will do what I can.
Enemy Air Raids
Operations Against Hostile Machines
asked whether officers in command of air and fighting squadrons must obtain permission from the War Office before attacking threatening enemy raiders?
The answer is in the negative. The War Office takes no executive action in the operations against hostile aircraft.
Would the hon. Gentleman say exactly who is responsible for giving these orders, because there seems to exist not only in the mind of the public but among the—
I have made such inquiries as I could, and I understand that it is left to the discretion of the squadron commander to use his own powers. I understand that no executive action is taken by the War Office itself or by the Home Forces headquarters
In the absence of the squadron commander, which is frequently the case, can it be put into the Army Orders that the second in command shall have power to order the machines to attack?
I should think, from my own knowledge, that that automatically follows.
Official Reports
asked the Prime Minister how many air raids, both by Zeppelin and heavier-than-air machines, have taken place in this country since the outbreak of war; and how many have been officially reported?
Since the out-break of war forty-seven airship raids and thirty "heavier-than-air" raids have taken place in this country, making seventy-seven air raids in all. No official communiqué was published in the Press with regard to the first six airship raids, up till the middle of May, 1915. Press reports of the fullest character were, however, published. After the middle of May Press reports were forbidden. With regard to the seven following raids, up till the middle of August, Admiralty communiqués were published. The next seven raids till the end of 1915 were published through Press Bureau reports. The remaining raids from the beginning of 1916 till the present time have all been published by means of official military reports issued by the War Office or the Field-Marshal Commanding-in-Chief, Home Forces, with the exception of one in which an airship is doubtfully reported as having appeared only for a few minutes over the coast and dropped no bombs.
Of the "heavier-than-air" raids the first two in 1914 were published by means of official communiqués. During the first half of 1915 no official communiqué was published in the Press with regard to the two raids that occurred, but full Press reports were allowed to be published. The only other raid that occurred in 1915 was published in an Admiralty communiqué. The remaining raids in 1916 and 1917 have all been published in military communiqués so far as they concern the sphere of action of the Field-Marshal Commanding-in-Chief, Home Forces, and wherever the enemy's activity has actually extended over land.
Has any air raid by heavier-than-air machines taken place over this country during the last six weeks which has not been reported?
:I cannot answer that question. I do not know.
Casualties
asked the Prime Minister what was the total number of casualties, killed and wounded, among naval, military, and civil in the air raid on Sunday, 22nd July; whether any of our own airmen were brought down by the enemy or otherwise crashed in this country, and, if so, what number; whether any of the enemy aircraft were either shot down or brought down in this country, and, if so, what number; and whether the reconstruction of the air defence of this country had been completed prior to this raid?
I am informed that the total casualties among soldiers, sailors and civilians caused by the raid of Sunday, 22nd July, were as follows:
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that he made a statement in this House that the air defences of this country were being reconstructed? The question I ask is whether that reconstruction was completed before this air raid took place, when the result, as far as the enemy were concerned, was the same as it was before?
I answered that part of the question in the last part of my answer.
Public Warnings
asked what form of warning for enemy air raids in London has now been decided on by the Government; and in what manner it is proposed to make the scheme public?
Warning will be given by signal rockets to be fired from certain fire brigade stations and police stations, as already announced. As a result of the experience gained last Sunday, it is proposed to reduce the number of signals to be fired at each station from three to two, and also to give a signal by whistle or otherwise when all is clear. A police notice will be issued forthwith.
Royal Engineers (Promotion)
asked whether promotion to the rank of major of captains of fifteen years' service in the Indian Army are given from 1st September, 1915, and carry pay from 1st September, 1916, and the promotion of captains of fifteen years' service in the Royal Engineers are given from 2nd November, 1916, and to carry pay only from that date; and, if so, whether the Royal Engineers' promotions can be put on the same footing as those of the Indian Army?
I am afraid that my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion cannot be adopted. It was thought right to give the Indian Infantry officers the same seniority as British Infantry officers, but the analogy between the Royal Engineers and the Infantry is not the same as between the British and Indian Infantry, and although the rate of promotion in the Royal Engineers is based upon the rate in Infantry, there is not the same reason for giving them precisely similar seniority.
Is there no reason for giving precisely the same seniority?
It is a very difficult military matter, and I am afraid that I cannot add anything to the answer I have given.
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
asked the Under-Secretary whether he is aware that there are many complaints made by soldiers' dependants as to the delay in allotment of the allowances they are entitled to, which arises largely from shortage of staff at the local inquiry offices; and whether he will take some immediate steps to speed up inquiries so that dependants may receive their payments much sooner?
I am afraid that I can add nothing to the reply of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the hon. Member for Paddington (South) on the 6th instant.
Can nothing be done by the War Office to speed up these local inquiries?
We are putting all the pressure we can upon the Department responsible.
Is it not a fact that the Paymaster-in-Chief has made a new arrangement by which these decisions can foe arrived at in a different way? Has that been put into operation?
I must ask for notice.
Soldiers' Votes
asked what will be the nature of the machinery adopted to enable soldiers serving with the Expeditionary Force to record their votes at the next General Election; and, in cases in which constituencies are altered owing to the operation of the Representation of the People Bill, what steps will be taken to inform soldiers of the constituency for which they are entitled to vote?
I am afraid that it is not possible to make any statement at present on this subject.
Is it to be perfectly understood that at all events soldiers serving at the Front will have an opportunity of recording their votes?
I understand that is the purpose of the Bill at present before Parliament, but in the present state of that measure I am sure my hon. and gallant Friend will not expect me to make any definite announcement.
Soldiers' Leave
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his Department is aware that the members of the 52nd Lowland Division, which is at present in Egypt, have not had leave of any kind for two years, many of these men having been in Gallipoli, after which they were promised a rest with the opportunity in turn of coming home; and, if so, will he take any action to remind the commanding officer of these facts, in view of the circumstances that if leave is not given before the end of September it will be impossible after that to grant it?
I am afraid that I can add nothing to what I have often said in answer to questions about leave. My hon. Friend will understand that everyone concerned is anxious to give as sympathetic consideration as possible to requests for leave, particularly in cases such as those mentioned by him. But leave is with the discretion of the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief and depends upon military necessity, and also on questions of transport, and this is especially the case in distant theatres of war.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a very large number of soldiers at the front have not had leave for over one year and eight months, and could steps be taken to facilitate leave being granted to these men?
Yes, I am aware of the point the hon. and gallant Gentleman puts to me, and I am aware that it applies not only to men who have been serving one year, but also to men who have been serving over two years. It is a very regrettable fact, but I can assure my hon. Friend and the House that very sympathetic consideration is now being given to their case, not only at home but at General Headquarters.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the one grievance of the men at the front is that they cannot get leave, though it is held out to them as a prospect?
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the soldiers serving at the front have no grievance whatever in the matter, appreciating as they do the difficulties that have arisen, but they would like steps taken, if possible, to facilitate leave?
Is not this an exceptional case where a promise was given?
I know of no definite promise having been made. I made representations to the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief in the early stages of the War, but, as I have already told the House, it is an extremely difficult problem, particularly where the theatre of war is distant.
Soldiers (Political Association)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the complete alteration in the composition of the British Army and of the fact that it is proposed to grant votes to soldiers as soldiers, His Majesty's Gov- ernment will cancel No. 451 of the King's Regulations, which deprives soldiers of the right of political association among themselves and also of the right of attending political meetings in uniform, this latter part of the Regulation being already disregarded with the connivance of the military authorities?
My Noble Friend the Secretary of State is referring this matter to the War Cabinet.
Royal Army Medical Corps
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether it is proposed to maintain the separate existence of the Royal Army Medical Corps, Territorial Force?
As indicated in my previous reply to a similar question, there is no separate existence, except in so far as certain units retain their original titles. In these units the personnel may be serving on Territorial Force or other attestations.
Government of Ireland
Convention (Procedure)
asked the Prime Minister whether in order to urge on the Convention the public necessity for prompt action on their part and, to prevent the unnecessary prolongation of their deliberations and inquiries, he will inform them that, unless they have come to definite and adequate conclusions respecting the constitution and the future government of Ireland on or before the 1st September next, the Convention will be dissolved on that date?
The answer is in the negative.
asked the Prime Minister if the Convention in Dublin will be open to the Press; if not, why the Government propose to hold the Convention in secret and only allow what suits the Government to be published; if he will withdraw the censorship and allow the Press a free hand; what the Government hope to gain by this action, seeing that the Irish public demand the full proceedings, and that it is only through the Press that they can know the conduct of those selected to attend the Convention; if he is aware that the Irish people look with suspicion on the censoring of the proceedings, and that they demand the right of knowing the names of those who support or advocate partition proposals; if he is aware of the indignation expressed in America, France, and Russia owing to the false news which reaches them about Irish affairs; and if he will see that the censorship of the Government will be dropped so far as it applies to the Irish Convention?
I cannot accept as accurate any of the assertions made in this question, and, in the opinion of the Government, the success of the Convention would be endangered if its deliberations were not conducted in private.
What do the Government hope to gain by keeping the true facts as to the proceedings of the Convention from the public?
I have already said that in our view the chance of the success of the Convention depends upon their deliberations being upon the merits and upon their not being interrupted by the views of the Press.
Would it not be better to prevent any report being given to the people instead of a faked report?
I do not think so. I think it is quite desirable that the official report of what has happened should be published.
Will my right hon. Friend take into consideration the shutting down of the whole of the Press, so that we can discuss questions here on the merits and not be interrupted?
I have no doubt my hon. Friend would like that arrangement, but I am afraid it is not practicable.
asked the Prime Minister whether it is with a view of creating and maintaining an atmosphere favourable to the deliberations of the Convention that public meetings in Ireland held for political objects are proclaimed and freedom of speech suppressed by the military equipped with machine guns; and, if not, can he explain on what grounds the military are called upon to suppress the rights of public meeting and freedom of speech?
I do not know to what meetings the hon. Member refers, but a condition of lawlessness would not create an atmosphere favourable to the Convention.
Munitions
Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)
asked the Prime Minister (1) whether the collection of a mass of information with reference to State control forms part of the duties for which the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) was originally sanctioned by Parliament; is he aware of the dissatisfaction and unrest caused in the country by the Board's interference in matters outside those with which it was created to deal; (2) if the Ministry of Munitions is still responsible for the activities of the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic); if so, will he take steps to dissociate the Munitions Ministry from a Board whose policy is distrusted by the majority of those to whom the Ministry must look for the output of munitions; (3) whether the constitution of a Board was sanctioned by Parliament to deal with the regulation of the supply of liquor in certain areas where it was alleged that over-indulgence was proving prejudicial to the output of munitions and the training of recruits, and why a Board nominated for this temporary and defined object has been asked or allowed to make recommendations which when adopted will involve the taxpayer in an outlay of several hundreds of millions of money and about which the electorate will not be consulted?
The relations between the Central Control Board and the Ministry of Munitions were fully explained to the House on 26th October, 1916, and no change is contemplated. Information with regard to the effect of the control exercised by the Board is clearly of assistance in forming a judgment upon which to base future action in relation to the liquor traffic.
Is it not obvious that questions like direct control and State purchase are going to be referred to the Central Control Board?
They are questions which must be dealt with by the Government of the day when the necessity arises.
Is it true that there is any dissatisfaction whatever except of a purely sectional character?
Questions
Public Services (Men of German Extraction)
asked the Prime Minister whether, on the completion of three years of war, he will issue an Order that all men of German extraction in any branch of the public services who object to share in the defence of their adopted country should no longer receive State employment?
I am in sympathy with the view expressed in the question, and after making inquiries in the Departments, the Government will consider whether the course suggested is necessary.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give the numbers concerned?
I have said that I am having inquiry made, and I can add nothing to that answer.
Military Censorship
asked the Prime Minister whether the censorship exercised by the military authorities ever comes under revision by the Cabinet, so as to preclude the use of this power in other circumstances than those where the public interest requires it?
The responsibility for the action taken rests ultimately with the Cabinet.
Is there any opportunity of avoiding the possibility of the Censors acting on a purely personal motive? How can the Censor's action be revised?
The only way I can think of securing that is by having suitable officials to carry out the duties, and that certainly is the effort of the Government.
Empire Land Settlement Committee
asked the Prime Minister whether the Report of the Empire Land Settlement Committee will be laid upon the Table of the House before the Adjournment; and whether a day will be given during the Autumn Session for the discussion of that Report?
The Report has not yet been issued, but it is hoped that this will be done shortly. As regards the second part of the question it is not possible to make any statement so far ahead.
National Service Department
asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the advisability of separating the women's section from the men's section of the National Service Department and transferring the men's section of that Department to a special Employment Exchange empowered to register the names of all persons above military age who desire to engage in some kind of employment, whether paid or otherwise. and to receive a similar registration of employers desiring assistance, honorary or otherwise?
The Prime Minister has asked me to reply. The relationship between the National Service Department and other Government Departments particularly concerned with the proposals made in this question is at the moment under consideration, and a statement will be made as soon as the discussions have progressed sufficiently far.
Is the hon. Gentleman certain that the National Service Department is now doing all that it ought to do?
That would be a very bold assertion for anybody to make.
National War Museum
asked the Prime Minister whether the National War Museum is to contain models of every War worker from the Red Cross nurse to an omnibus conductress; and whether and, if so, when the House will have an opportunity of discussing matters in connection with the formation of the National War Museum, seeing that a section of public opinion favours the museum being founded on the lines of being a real his- torical record of the War, and is opposed to any tendency that will have the effect of giving it the appearance of a wax-works exhibition?
The answer to the first question is in the negative. If my hon. Friend wishes to raise the question several opportunities will present themselves before the Recess; but, in the meantime, as Chairman of the National War Museum Committee, I may say that the Committee are in full accord with that section of public opinion which favours the Museum being founded on the lines of its being a real historical record of the War.
Representation of the People Bill
asked the Prime Minister whether he will inform the House when it is proposed to resume the progress of the Representation of the People Bill; and whether the Government are prepared to expedite the passage of this Bill, even at the cost of the suspension of the Eleven o'clock Rule whenever necessary, in order that its fate may be determined before the House goes for the summer Recess?
I cannot add anything to the statement which I made on 18th July with regard to business.
Does the right hon. Gentleman hold out any hope of getting this Bill through before the holidays, and, if not, will he consider the advisability of placing the interests of the public before the holidays of Members of this House?
As I stated before, there is a limit to what can be done in a limited time. I have no hope that this Bill will be carried through before the Adjournment?
Is the Government really in earnest over this measure? Has a Liberal measure ever been carried by a Tory Government?
Very often.
Is there still an opportunity of hearing that this Bill will be advanced further than its present stage before the Adjournment?
I referred to what I have said before. I then expressed the hope that we should get to Clause 26.
Navy and Army (Pay)
asked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the Government's decision to fix a minimum wage of 25s. a week for agricultural labourers, he will consult with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the First Lord of the Admiralty, and the Secretary of State for War with a view to the early introduction of legislation to increase the pay of all sailors and soldiers, other than officers, to at least a clear half-crown a day exclusive of all deductions and allowances; if, at the same time, he will promote legislation to empower the Admiralty and the War Office, respectively, to make Regulations in connection with such increases of pay, so that no sailors or soldiers shall receive any part of it without special sanction until they have obtained their discharge or been promoted to non-commissioned or commissioned rank; and whether he will also consider the necessity of increasing the pay of all subalterns in the Army by at least 50 per cent., so as to enable those who are dependent upon their pay to meet the additional expenses they have to bear owing to the general increase in the cost of nearly everything they have to buy?
I fear that this proposal is not practicable.
Could a modified proposal of some further consideration to soldiers and sailors in the matter of their pay be entertained by the Government?
That will require much more consideration than I could possibly give it in reply to a question.
Ministry of Reconstruction
asked the Prime Minister whether the Ministry of Reconstruction is yet in existence; and, if so, from what date did the salary of the Minister of Reconstruction commence?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. If and when the Bill passes, salary will be paid from the date upon which the appointment was made.
Are we to understand from that answer, that in the circumstances, as the right hon. Gentleman has taken an office of profit under the Crown, he will be obliged to seek re-election?
He will be obliged to seek re-election unless the Bill passes which relieves him from that obligation.
Questions (Ministerial Answers)
asked the Prime Minister what steps, if any, are taken to punish the permanent officials, military, naval, or civil, who wilfully, to protect their own misdoings, supply members of his Government with answers to questions asked by Members of this House which are false, inaccurate, or misleading?
I am not aware of any facts which justify the assertions made in this question.
Surely the right hon. Gentleman is aware that from the Treasury Bench the day before yesterday a member of the Government had to make a personal explanation on account of the misleading statements which had been given to him by members of the Government or by military officials who had told him a distinct and absolute falsehood, and so put the official in a false position?
The House heard the statement which was made by my hon. Friend, which, fortunately, I did also. The statement made by the hon. Member is entirely at variance with that statement. The information given to him was from the War Office, and the officials there were themselves not aware of what had taken place.
Surely the right hon. Gentleman will stand by members of his own Government.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that from the Treasury Bench information has already been given from the War Office that no secret instructions were issued in regard to recruiting, and that it has now been proved that it was untrue?
No, Sir. I am not in the least aware of that.
You make inquiries!
Board of Agriculture
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture what Sir H. Rew is now doing, and if he is working for the Board?
Sir Henry Rew has resumed his position as one of the assistant secretaries of the Board.
Has he taken the position that he held before he went to the Food Controller?
Yes, I think he has.
Corn Production Bill
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture what he estimates the cost of carrying out the Corn Production Bill to be now?
If the hon. and gallant Member intends to ask for an estimate of the Government liability under the Corn Production Bill, the answer must still be that the cost is a matter of conjecture. But the acreage basis of cost will be slightly less than the cost on the basis of corn produced. On the other hand, it may possibly be more than on the basis of corn sold.
May I have an estimate of the cost of carrying out the Corn Production Bill?
Perhaps the hon. and gallant Gentleman will give notice of that question.
That is the question I asked.
Army Cattle (Purchase)
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture what appointment has Mr. Gavin been given; was he transferred from the Admiralty; what is the nature of his work; and what salary does he get?
Mr. Gavin was transferred from the naval service to act as secretary to the Committee which was appointed by the President to submit a scheme for the purchase for the Army of cattle in the United Kingdom, and also as deputy-director of an organisation to carry out that scheme. In addition to his secretarial duties, he has been engaged on preliminary work necessary for the creation of that organisation. Sanction has been obtained for him to be paid at the rate of £1,000 per annum, should the scheme be put into operation. The appointment is in any case purely temporary.
Has he any practical knowledge of the work that he has been asked to undertake?
I think so.
Is it usual to put a tinker into a tailor's place?
Is it not a fact that Mr. Gavin's ignorance of the matter is his recommendation?
Wool Clip
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office (1) whether he will arrange that all lots of wool purchased shall be weighed and valued at local depots so as to avoid disputes as to weight and price, which were prevalent last year; (2) whether he is aware that under this year's wool-purchase scheme local agents are not employed to buy wool, with the result that such agents are deprived of their business connections; and whether he will arrange for their employment on last year's terms?
In response to the demands of the farmers' representatives that the entire Welsh clip should be paid for before leaving Wales, and that each farmer should have his wool weighed and paid for at the time of delivery, all merchants buying in Wales have been required to open warehouses there. In addition, local depots for the collection of lots of under 200 fleeces have been established throughout the country. At these farmers are able to deliver such lots and receive immediate payment. I understand that nearly four-fifths of the Welsh clip is under the 200-fleece limit, and will be dealt with in this manner. I regret that, owing to difficulties of storage and labour, and the extra expense that would be entailed, it is impossible to collect large lots of over 200 fleeces in this manner; but if the holder of a large lot sends a record of its weight to the authorised merchant at the time of dispatch in the event of the merchant not agreeing with this weight, he will be asked to attend and see the wool weighed. With regard to the employment of agents, as was the case last year, their employment and remuneration is entirely a matter between them and the authorised merchants. This year most of their functions are being performed by the depots, with the result that in some cases their services are not required by the authorised merchants. It is understood, however, that in other cases they receive a small commission from the authorised merchant, to whom their over 200 fleece clips are allocated.
Textile Factories (Working Hours)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that the Army Council Order of 24th May, dealing with the reduction of working hours of textile factories whose business consists partly of woollen or worsted goods, is bearing very harshly on mills where only from 10 to 15 per cent. of the output is woollen or worsted, and of that percentage sometimes two-thirds is not new wool, but shoddy, of which there is no scarcity; is he aware that, if an increase of wages is granted to the weavers to make up for this reduction of hours, girls will be attracted to this class of weaving, and wool, instead of being saved, will be more largely used, while wholly-cotton mills will be deprived of labour; and will he take action to alter this position of affairs in districts where the new wool used is infinitesimal?
Before the promulgation of the Army Council Order reducing the working hours in textile factories, the position of the factories referred to in the question was very carefully considered by the Central Wool Advisory Committee, which decided that it was impossible to fix an arbitrary percentage of wool that could be used without bringing a factory within the terms of the Order. The whole position is, however, now again receiving the careful consideration of the Department, and the Central Wool Advisory Committee, and the consideration referred to in the question will not be overlooked.
Agent Provocateur (Czarist Government)
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that an agent provocateur, in the employ of the Czarist Government in Russia, was denounced by the Provisional Government in Petrograd to the British Government; whether he was placed under arrest for half-an-hour and then released; whether he is aware of the allegations made or capable of being made against him by the Russian Government; and whether, pending such full information from Petrograd, this person will be kept in detention or under close observation?
I am not aware that any person has been denounced by the Provisional Government in Petrograd to the British Government as an agent provocateur. The other questions therefore do not arise.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any official or person connected with Scotland. Yard was not arrested and kept in custody for half-an-hour and then released?
I would not say that.
; You cannot say that.
Pera Cigarette Business
asked if an order has been made to wind up the Pera Cigarette business owned by an interned alien enemy; and, if it has not been made, what is the reason for the delay?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. An order to wind up the business of the Pera Cigarette Company has not been made. The business was inspected by order of the Board of Trade, and the case was submitted to their Advisory Committee, who found that there was a special reason why the Board should not enforce the provisions of Section 1 of the Trading With the Enemy Amendment Act, 1916.
Can the hon. Gentleman say what the special reason was?
I am quite prepared to show the papers to any hon. Member who is specially interested, if he will arrange with me.
Can the hon. Gentleman say whether this business is being carried on for this alien enemy, to be handed back to him when the War is over, although British firms are able to do the work?
The hon. Member may be reassured on this point, that we are taking steps to see that it shall not be returned.
Fire Brigades (Metropolis)
asked the Home Secretary whether he has discussed a proposal to withdraw fire engines from certain outer districts of the Metropolis and concentrate them elsewhere; and, if so, has any decision been reached in the matter?
A conference of members and officers of fire brigades in and near London was held at the Home Office last week for the purpose of discussing the question of co-ordinating the work of the fire brigades in the Metropolitan Police area in the event of fires being caused by air raids. I have appointed a Committee, consisting of representatives of the fire brigades, to consider what steps can be taken for this purpose, and I hope that the Committee will be able to propose arrangements beneficial to all the localities concerned.
Will the right hon. Gentleman include districts outside London which are served by volunteer fire brigades?
Yes, Sir.
Will the representatives of fire brigades outside London be consulted?
Yes; they have been consulted. They attended the conference, and some of them have been included in the Committee.
Business of the House
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he will make a definite statement as to the business to be taken before the Adjournment, and whether the statement will be made in the usual form admitting of discussion?
I hope to be able to make the usual statement next week.
Will the right hon. Gentleman be able to announce the position of Ireland under the Representation of the People Bill at that time?
I do not suppose we shall have reached that stage in the Bill, but, as I have said, any statement that is necessary will be made.
Do we understand that the right hon. Gentleman will make the statement in the usual form, which will admit of discussion?
In my answer I thought that was understood. I said I Would make the usual statement. I meant in the usual form.
Intermediate Education (Ireland)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when the Supplementary Estimate for Irish Intermediate Education will be issued; and when he will be able to afford an opportunity of discussing it?
A Supplementary Estimate for this purpose will be presented in due course, but, as the matter will probably require legislation, it will not be possible to take this Vote before the Recess.
House of Commons
Protection of Members
I desire to bring before the House and you, Mr. Speaker, a matter which appears to me to be of grave public interest. Just before the House met this afternoon there were introduced into the precincts of the House, doubtless by the Government, a number of secret police agents. As I entered the House, shortly before quarter to three, the cloak-room lobby was impeded by a number of men in plain clothes, who made my access to the House slower and less pleasant than usual. Without turning to notice them, I inquired of an official who they were, and was informed at once, "Oh, these are the Secret Service men!" When I looked round I recognised one or two notorious characters, and when they saw me they beat a hasty retreat. Seriously, when the Government introduce police officers into this House they can have, I think, only two legitimate grounds: First of all, the safety of Members. I feel safe, and I think every other hon. Member does also. If our safety were menaced it would be necessary to introduce more police, but I contend that they should be police in uniform. The other reason, quite legitimate, which might demand an extra number of police is the convenience of the public, and on such occasions, when the Lobbies are very crowded, it would be quite right to introduce an extra number of police; but such an occasion is not presented to-day. The Lobbies are almost deserted, and there is no great public interest in the proceedings this afternoon. I conclude, therefore, that the only two legitimate grounds on which these men could be introduced to the House are not present. I have approached more than one official of the House, who have confirmed the fact that these gentlemen were, and I suppose still are, upon the premises. What is the reason for it? I can only conceive one, namely, that they are here to limit in some way the freedom of hon. Members. They are here either to spy upon us, to open our correspondence in the Post Office, or for some part in the nefarious and cowardly action of the Government. Do I speak strongly? I speak from conviction, and calm conviction, because I do seriously urge, as seriously as I ever urged anything in this House, that if the Government introduce secret agents into this House they ought to be prepared with an explanation. But when explanations are asked of the Government in these days they are so peculiar in their evasions that we cannot always accept them. I appeal to you and ask you, in defence of the liberties of this House, whether you will order these police agents to leave the precincts of this House immediately, if they are still here, and if you will further give orders that no other members of the secret police force will be admitted to these premises and within these precincts, without the House itself authorising their presence? I beg with great respect and earnestness, to appeal to you as the guardian of the liberties of this House.
In reply to the hon. Member, I can only express regret that his access to the House was delayed, though it was not delayed very long, as I observed that he was here at prayers. I am sorry that he has raised the matter at all.
Why?
I will tell the hon. Member the reason. I take full responsibility myself for what has occurred. The hon. Member is quite mistaken as to the reasons for the introduction of these men. A few days ago I received information from a very authoritative source that there was likely to be some illegal and improper demonstration in the Gallery, accompanied possibly by physical violence. Therefore, the Home Office, at my request, sent a certain limited number of Secret Service men, who were here, not for the purpose of impeding hon. Members, or of restricting their liberty, but for the purpose of defending them. I will make further inquiry as to whether there is any necessity now to continue them here. If not, I will ask the Home Office to withdraw them, but, as I am more or less the guardian of the lives and liberties of hon. Members while they are in this Chamber, I feel that it is my duty to do everything which I can to protect them.
New Member Sworn
Colonel Richard Beale Colvin, C.B., for the County of Essex (Western or Epping Division).
Bills Presented
POLICE CONSTABLES (NAVAL AND MILITARY SERVICE) BILL,—"to amend Section one of the Police Reservists (Allowances) Act, 1914, as amended by subsequent enactments," presented by Sir GEORGE CAVE; supported by Mr. Brace; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 80.]
NEW MINISTRIES BILL,—"to provide for the establishment of a Ministry of Reconstruction and to make provision as to the right of certain Ministers to sit in Parliament," presented by Sir GEORGE CAVE; supported by the Solicitor-General; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 81.]
Orders of the Day
Supply.—[24th July.]
Supplementary Vote of Credit
Resolution reported,
1. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £650,000,000, be granted to His Majesty, beyond the ordinary Grants of Parliament, towards defraying the Expenses which may be incurred during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1918, for General Navy and Arm. Services in so far as specific provision is not made therefor by Parliament; for the conduct of Naval and Military Operations; for all measures which may be taken for the Security of the Country; for assisting the Food Supply, and promoting the Continuance of Trade, Industry, Business and Communications, whether by means of insurance or indemnity against risk, the financing of the purchase and resale of foodstuffs and materials, or otherwise; for Relief of Distress; and generally for all expenses, beyond those provided for in the ordinary Grants of Parliament, arising out of the existence of a state of war."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
I rise not to oppose this Resolution, but to support it, although I am impressed, as no doubt many Members of this House are, by the magnitude of the demand made upon us. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, when refusing a day for the discussion of the Resolution suggesting the appointment of a Committee of this House to inquire into the causes of the increased prices of food and the steps that are being, or should be, taken by the Government to deal with this subject—a Resolution which was put down by over 100 Members—indicated this as a fitting occasion for a Debate on the food question. The Resolution, which has just been read, indicates the assistance of the food supply as one of the purposes for which this vast sum of money is now being put under the control of the Ministry. There is, by this method of discussion, of course, no Vote possible on the proposal for a Committee. Such a Committee, though possibly harassing to the permanent officials, would, a number of us think, keep the Ministry more in touch with public feeling and the effects of their actions on the civil population than the occasional interviews upstairs in a Committee Room with controllers. Ministers, it appears to me, are not entirely in touch with public opinion in this matter. The new Controller and his second-in-command in this House, whom I congratulate upon his position, have a heavy task to restore public confidence. The House will sympathise especially with the position of the hon. Member in having to make his first speech new in his office, and before his chief has made his declaration of policy in the other House. This also puts the House in some difficulty owing to our absence of knowledge as to the measures which the new Food Controller proposes to take.
4.0 P.M.
I am quite sure that we shall all of us feel it necessary that Lord Rhondda should have every opportunity given him to develop his complete programme. I am not quite sure that the announcement that has been made of the proposal as to the 9d. loaf has been made at a very opportune moment. Possibly the announcement was forced by public opinion to a certain extent, but I am not quits sure that, just at this period of the harvest in other parts of the world, it was very wise to let it be known that there is going to be Government responsibility for finding the money in order to meet the price which is to be paid by the public. I do not desire to cover in detail the very large amount of ground that is opened by this question of feeding the people. We must take it for granted that the rise in prices has had a very grave effect upon the public mind, and the Report of the Commission on labour unrest indicates that this rise in prices has had a very considerable effect. The Leader of the House possibly will tell us whether the House can be trusted with these Reports, and whether he could not publish them as a Parliamentary Paper, for the information they contain ought to be at the service of the House. The rise in wages has not made up for the deficiency in the family budget because of the rise in prices. Persons with fixed incomes, or those engaged in particular trades, in some cases are not benefiting by the War. I think that the cotton operatives are by no means receiving an equivalent, and day labourers, with families of small children, are all suffering by the rise in prices. There are two points to which the attention of the House should be directed. There is the question of the direct hardship, which is a definite and measurable one, and we must brace cur-selves to meet it. But there has also arisen, and it is growing I am afraid, a feeling of injustice, a feeling that all are not dealt with equally, which has produced and is producing discontent, and it is our duty to mitigate that hardship and to endeavour to remove the causes of discontent. It is not fair, I think, to saddle one industry with inordinate blame for the general rise in prices, but I must emphasise what I find in my own Constituency and elsewhere that the statements as to shipping profits have profoundly stirred the people. There is a very suspicious feeling about that there are those who are preying upon the poor under present circumstances. It is the duty of all of us, of every Member of this House, to guide our actions at the present moment so as to support our troops in the field, and also to sustain the spirit of their relatives at home—now practically the whole nation. Most of all they should be convinced that the private sacrifices and the general sacrifices, both of those in the field and those at home, are not being used for private gain. There is a deep feeling of resentment which bears in it suggestions which I hope will not materialise in a decline of the national spirit. There is time, and plenty of time, to meet it, if energetic action be taken.
As we look back upon the three years that have passed, it appears inevitable that a great rise in prices must have occurred, and we are surprised that we were taken by surprise at the effect of the War upon the civil population. We are now slowly devising alleviations for an ever-widening circle of hardships. I wish to direct attention to this point. The wants of the civil population are treated, and have been treated, as subsidiary to the imperative needs of the War Council. So far as priority of supply is concerned, we must agree, and do agree willingly, but the continued rise in the prices of necessaries and the suffering produced impose upon the Government the necessity for showing equal concern for the food of civilians as for the food of the Army. The morale of the country depends on the feeling that in this matter, so far as can be, there is equality of sacrifice, and that favoured individuals are not preying on the necessities of the poor. The civilian has always had to pay through the effect of Army buying. At first, improvident buying sent up prices which were supposed to be temporary, but that might be almost forgiven in the confusion which necessarily arose at the beginning of the War. Then a more economical system was improvised, the system of payment after ascertaining the cost, plus a reasonable profit, to eliminate artificial market conditions for the Army, leaving the civilian still subject to them. Then the Defence of the Realm Act gave powers to requisition supplies for the Army, and the civilians had to take their chance of the leavings. Then raw materials were controlled, and splendid savings for the Exchequer were recorded, but it had no effect in regard to civilians except so far as it was a saving to him in his capacity of taxpayer, but still it was not a direct gain to his private pocket. These things are however, all to the good for the public purse. But the Director of Army Contracts has now £350,000,000 a year to pass through his hands. His purchases are represented by hundreds and millions of pounds weight, or yards, or whatever it may be.
This fabulous growth has made prices bear more and more hardly on civilians, and there is a strong public opinion that the time has come for the civil population to get the benefit of collective buying, especially in regard to food. We progress by steps, but I doubt whether it is best for the civil population that what is to spare, or meat which is not needed for the Army, should be thrown back into the market, to have its price fixed by the higgling of the market when supplies are rather scarce. As an example of the effect upon the civil population, I will take the easiest example, wool. A splendid saving of £13,000,000 is claimed through the Departmental Control exercised for the Army. I do not know what my hon. Friends who are engaged in the wool trade will think about the idea of its being a "splendid saving, for it has rather amazed them apparently. But this wool is sold at two prices, the cost price, plus a fair margin, for use in Government contracts; and then there is the market price, which is about 20 per cent. higher, for civil use. Where does that 20 per cent. go? Shall we have a balance sheet, and would hon. Members consider it "pronteering"? The Departmental Committee says, somewhat apologetically, that the Department is unable to avoid making a profit, which is rather a naive remark. It congratulates the manufacturer on obtaining wool at 5 per cent. and 10 per cent. below the world's market rate. Incidentally we are told that in selling this wool at 5 per cent. below the world's market rate, preference is given to the export trade, "where the profits to be obtained are out of all proportion to the cost of production." I do not know whether those engaged in the wool trade agree with that or not. We are also told that the "prices of wool goods for home consumption have soared to abnormal heights." There you have an instance where the civil population is suffering from the condition of things due to purchases for the Army. A House of Commons Committee would, I think, have long ago explored these abnormal heights, and either have exposed the profiteering or refuted the charge. The powers which enabled the course indicated to be pursued in respect of wool apply also to all non-manufactured commodities such as agricultural produce and what sever else held. I am not criticising the exercise of these powers as to buying, but I do suggest that there is a case to answer in respect to the Government's position as middle man, with extraordinary powers to set up a monopoly and work it without inspection.
Take hemp. The margin of net profit earned by the shippers, previous to the intervention of the Department, was £35 per ton. Shippers now receive a commission of 30s. per ton, covering all expenses. The Department has reduced the margin of profit, now its own, to £25 per ton, and sells the hemp at this figure to the contractors and to the private trade. No doubt the Committee marvel at their moderation. They claim a combined profit and saving effected of £1,750,000. Is this profiteering, and, if so, is the Government setting the example? Boots have doubled in price, but the War Contract Department claims that the rejected or inferior kips are released to the public again at 32d. per lb., while the Department purchased them for 16½d. The ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer said yesterday: the great demand, and the lack of production which are in the main responsible for the increase of prices, but still I do not think that it can be claimed that there is no profiteering. I think it has become a matter of the highest importance to convince the people that the Government's own record is clear, and that it does not play into the hands of those making excessive profits from dealing in food. I cannot entirely acquit them in respect of the articles I have mentioned, and, in respect of every article of food, their record will be closely scanned. Have not the Government, while seeking to exercise economy, wisely and necessarily, for the Army and Navy, not left the civilian to the higgling of the market in a time of extreme scarcity, which inevitably means increased—in many cases stupendous—profits for some, and deprivation for others? I cannot admit the argument which is sometimes used of non-interference with economic laws, on the ground that high prices prevent future scarcity. The meaning of that is that the poor endure the present scarcity, whilst the rich do not, and when that comes to the main necessaries of life, that argument can only be designated as cruel. The Committee on prices, whilst revealing some cases of what I think is profiteering, appear to hesitate in recommending remedies. Take the case of tea, where one definite case was investigated. We are told of the speculative over-buying of one broker, and that disastrous on the public mind. Speaking of tea, to which I have just referred, the ex-Chancellor anticipated me yesterday in one comment on the breakfast table duties. If you are going to subsidise the loaf the Chancellor of Exchequer will surely have to reconsider his taxation on sugar and tea. If on your breakfast table you have a loaf which you are subsidising, and tea and sugar which you are taxing, that seems rather an uneconomic proceeding. Of the rise in tea 7d. is accounted for by increased taxation. It is satisfactory in regard to the question of profiteering to know that the rise in tea is not due to increase in pro tits of retailers, blenders, or wholesale distributors. That rather indicates that the control of imports may be the means of safeguarding consumers. As to sugar, discontent is more in regard to the method of distribution than the actual price. In this case the Government control is complete. The tax has been raised twice, and the cost is now about three times what it was, and the Government Tax accounts for 1¼d. Market profits are avoided and any profits made by refiners in excess of pre-War figures are recovered by the Royal Commission, whilst wholesale distributors get a small percentage, 1¾ per cent., for their services. I think in regard to sugar, in view of the general rise in the cost of living, the Government might well revise its sugar finance in order to avoid further profits beyond the tax, even if they have not also to consider the revision of the tax. I am rather inclined to suspect undue caution in accumulating reserve funds. It may not be wise, I suppose, to make these figures public, but the suggested Committee of the House would probably have been able to receive full information from the Government on this point. But it is the distribution which has been most unequal, and the late distribution for fruit preserving has caused profound dissatisfaction. This is one of the Food Controller's greatest problems, and I hope that his representative will be able to give us some assurance to-day on the subject.
The late Chancellor of the Exchequer opened the question of the price of the loaf, and a brief answer from the Leader of the House showed that we must wait and see what the full Government proposals are to be. I will only make this remark as to that. I shall be glad to have any information which the hon. Member is able to give us in reply, but think when a producer is defended against the higgling of the market turning to the benefit of the consumer he should not be allowed his grab if prices soar. He cannot have it both ways. The Government can at least tell us what they are paying for wheat at the present moment, I mean to the home producer, and whether the figure mentioned of 78s. is correct. We have to consider two points, price and distribution. In view of the economy in war-time of central buying, how far do the Government propose to extend it for the benefit of the civil population, or are the civil population, in the case of the many necessaries of life, still to be left to the mercy of the markets? I am aware that this opens up a wide and terrifying vista. That may be so, but we have to face war measures, siege measures, and we have to consider that portion of the people which is suffering, and will suffer still more, if the present conditions become worse. Secondly, is the Food Controller prepared to face this problem of distribution? In reply to a resolution of certain Members of this House, asking that in the case of articles controlled, or mainly controlled by the Government, the Government should secure that those articles reached the consumers at a reasonable price, Lord Rhondda expressed entire concurrence. We desire to know how far he has been able to design machinery which will secure that result. We also desire to know how far he is prepared, for instance, to use local authorities in this matter. In my view, though I have not had many opportunities, and certainly no official opportunities, of consultation with officials of judging how far it is within the limits or powers of the Government Departments, it appears to me to be quite beyond them. I can only think that they will have to call in the local authorities. The Committee on Prices suggest in and utilising their local knowledge and local resources. If the present distributing agencies, the small shopkeepers, as well as the co-operative societies, were locally organised and utilised, one obstacle to municipal interference would be removed. Is it not the quickest way by utilising the local authorities and resources, to satisfy local opinion and develop the system of local control?
Really, I might say that my speech is one large note of interrogation. I am afraid that the Food Controller cannot avoid a great deal of interference and control which we never conceived possible. I hope he will endeavour to take public opinion with him, and let us know and discuss what he proposes. Edicts suddenly announced, without the public being aware of the facts and the reasons, raise an immediate outcry from interested parties, and there is no informed public opinion to sustain them. It is most important, in my opinion, to combat false ideas. If profiteering is negligible let that be made manifest, and if it exists, suppress it. The depredations of U boats must be severe indeed to daunt us. It is not the blows of the enemy but suspicion of friends that undermines courage. A sense of injustice is a bitter condiment for food. If it is only a sense of and not a real injustice then let us remove the sense. Our people will bear, I think, almost any suffering if it is unavoidable in a great cause. That our cause is great we all believe, and in my idea on it hangs the peace of the world. May I conclude with an indication of the spirit in which this question is looked on in perhaps unexpected quarters. There were four boys, well educated at considerable sacrifice. Two are dead, one is maimed for life, and the fourth is with his regiment. My friend's concluding remarks to me when mentioning this were:
My hon. Friend (Sir G. Toulmin) has represented a view of this matter which is beyond all doubt very widely held. I do not propose to follow him in detail, but I do support his plea for investigation as to this matter. I listened to my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford (Mr. Hewins) yesterday. He spoke with all his accustomed largeness of view of this matter; but I could not help feeling that whilst his points were most interesting, some of the suggestions he made dealt with matters which were far away from the ground, or, at all events, farther away from the ground than the thoughts which are present in the minds of the common people of this country. I confess that I thought the analysis of the position which was given yesterday by the hon. Member for Bolton (Mr. Tootill) most useful. He dealt with the matter in a three-fold way, from the point of view of the popular view of profiteering, from the point of view of the importance which most of the working classes, and especially the manition workers, attach to the pledges of the Government, a matter which is tied up with the various controls imposed on them, and, thirdly, from the point of view of the loose talk, irresponsible talk, of a Russian Revolution in a few factories and workshops. To deal first of all with the question of profiteering, I think most of us will admit that a little profiteering goes a long way towards stirring up trouble. It is very difficult to define profiteering. Roughly, I suppose it may be defined as undue participation in the game of grab. I think that is really a good enough rough definition. At a very early stage of the War it was foreseen that something of this kind would arise. I think the famous case of Spillers and Baker's profits, which they made by a process, more or less, of sitting still and doing nothing, impressed itself on the House. Shortly after that we had the Excess Profits Tax legislation. We also had the establishment of the habit of war bonuses, which, up to a certain point, was both just and necessary, and in fact absolutely inevitable, but past that certain point—a point rather hard to define—I submit was foolish, and, I think, has been occasionally abused. I always supported the Excess Profits Tax legislation, and I welcomed it. Notoriously the working classes of the country did support it and do support it.
But I do think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer of that day did make one serious error in submitting that legislation, and in carrying it through the House. I do not, of course, forget that a remark of that kind would appear to be something in the nature of a reproach to the right hon. Gentleman who made the error. That is quite true, but I do not make the remark in any contentious spirit, because I imagine few of us realised what enormous profits would arise directly out of the War. I myself remember when the first Act was passing through the House that I made two suggestions. One was that "any business whose profits for the accounting period were found to be at the rate three times larger than during the corresponding pre-War period should in respect of such profit, in excess of such increase, be charged Excess Profits Duty of 80 per cent." instead of 50 per cent.; and the further suggestion I made was that "any business established after 4th August, 1914, which was shown by its tax returns to have earned profits at the rate of more than 100 per cent. per annum on its capital should be charged, in addition to the ordinary Excess Profits Duty a Super Duty of 90 per cent. in respect of the excess." It was impossible for the House to discuss these suggestions at that time because they involved a charge upon the individual, and they were both cut of order. At the same time, I cannot but think that if we had only realised that profits on an enormous scab out of the War would arise in a comparatively few cases, and had adopted some such form, it would have been well. The worst trouble from these absurdly excessive increased earnings would never have troubled the country or the House.
I have no intention of joining in the outcry which in some quarters is a very popular outcry against the shipowner as an individual. Many of these criticisms of individuals are unjust. It is obvious that had they not been allowed to make these profits that the shipowners who belong to other countries would have made them instead, and that would not have done us any good. But the fact remains that these enormous profits were made. I would appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for such further information as is available as to the exact quarters in which these profits have been made. The excess levy last year produced £140,000,000, which means, of course, that the excess profits which yielded that levy came to at least £280,000,000, or, to put it roughly, say, £300,000,000. I do not suggest that it would be a fair, or certainly a scientific, method of calculation in dealing with these figures to say that a certain amount of those excess profits represent just that amount of increased living charges upon the workmen and their families, but I do think it is material to point out that some of that £300,000,000 does arithmetically correspond, and to a certain extent reasonably does represent, an increased charge to an average working man's family in this country of 10s. per week. That is the arithmetic of the matter with quite enough accuracy for the purpose. But I do not think that one can argue from that—
May I interrupt my hon. Friend for a moment? Supposing these profits are made not out of this country, but out of foreign countries, and brought into this country, what then?
I am not overlooking that aspect of the case. But it is not immediately relevant to the point I am at present engaged upon. I dare say, however, I shall come to it. The fact remains that the £300,000,000 thus drawn by shipowners, or whoever it was, made by the people of this country, does somewhat correspond to the increased living charges. What the exact correspondence may be I cannot say; neither so far as I know can anybody else. I, however, deny altogether that it is possible for any economist of repute to suggest that there is no connection whatever between one and the other. While the Budget is passing through the House the habit of reticence on the part of the Treasury is a quality which, I suppose, cannot be dispensed with. At a certain stage it is a virtue. If not a virtue, it is, at all events, a necessity. I think, however, now that the Finance Bill for the year has left the House, that further information might be given to us. I would remind the right hon. Gentleman opposite, the Leader of the House, that some time ago I asked him if he could,
"without disclosing names, say what excess profits really had been earned by traders, and whether shipowners had been earning larger increases than other people?"
I am not satisfied that they have. I also asked
"for particulars of tobacconists, provision merchants, Army contractors, distillers, brewers, and so on."
The answer of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was this:
"It has been found impracticable for the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, in the great pressure of business involved in the raising of war revenue, to collect statistics of Excess Profits Duty returns which are not required for revenue purposes. The information referred to by my hon. Friend can only be obtained at a disproportionate expenditure of labour, and, if obtained, it would be extremely misleading."
It seems to me that, whether the information were misleading or not, would depend on the way in which it was submitted to the House. If it was submitted in a misleading way, of course it would be useless, and far worse than useless. But I still think that such information as I asked for could be prepared in a way that would not be misleading, but in a way that would be exceedingly useful. I had some difficulty in following the reply of the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he said that such figures as I asked for are not required for revenue purposes. It appears to me that the consideration of some of these questions is directly based upon these figures, or really closely connected with them, and that they not only would be useful for revenue purposes; and it appears to me they are being used for taxing purposes at the present time. After all, the line of partition between the work of the Food Controller and various other Controllers and that of the taxing officers of the Treasury is at present, at the best, rather thin; certainly it is so thin as to be quite illusory. Every one of these Controllers is a sort of Lord High Executioner of Taxes in disguise. The hon. Member for Liverpool interrupted me about shipowners. I am not sure that I intended to say more about them than I did, but as he mentioned the matter, I will.
Hear, hear!
I think the House and the Government of the day are responsible for what has happened. They were remiss and lacking in proper prevision as to what might happen in such a case in the matter of shipping. The present Leader of the House pointed, out at a very early stage of the War, and before he crossed over to the other side, that it might be necessary to seize shipping altogether. I remember the words of the right hon. Gentleman.
The right hon. Gentleman has changed his view.
Well, that is not an uncommon thing, and the hon. Gentleman the Member for Liverpool does not, I suppose, blame the right hon. Gentleman for that. He and his friends will realise that whatever enemies they have in this country, the "Economist" newspaper cannot be regarded as one of them. I would remind him of something which that friendly newspaper says regarding his trade. In its issue of 7th July it says: for Leeds, not in any revolutionary language indeed, but containing a demand that the House should pay a further sum, I think, of something not far from £100,000,000 to the private soldiers in our armies. That circular discusses that demand on its merits, as it ought to do. I say nothing on the merits of the case, I do not want to enter into it; but does anyone imagine for a moment that popular logic in the matter does not run in this way: the man in the street sees that the shipowners have been allowed to make £100,000,000, or whatever the sum may be, out of the War; he complains that other traders have done the same thing through the lack of provision on the part of this House; he sees they have succeeded in that. He sees that the manufacturing side have very nearly succeeded in doing exactly the same thing, and he naturally concludes that if we have money to waste or to spend, or to allow to slip through our fingers by the hundred million, there is no reason why the Army should not have another £100,000,000. If one looks at it from that point of view it is very hard to see that that claim is not perfectly just. That is what I mean when I say that this error made by the House in passing the original Excess Profits Tax legislation really accounts for nine-tenths of the industrial unrest at present, and that at present it takes us only to the beginning and not to the end of the process. I wish with all my heart that there were some way in which when treating trades from whom we want excess profits we could fairly, without undermining confidence, go back and secure a further portion.
If I were a wealthy manufacturer who had made hundreds of thousands of pounds, or millions, as in the case of some individuals whose names are popularly associated in the country with such an acquisition, I should feel that, looking at the matter from the point of view of my own protection alone, I was doing a wise thing in giving back certainly part of such profits; and, further, I should think myself lucky if I were allowed to keep the rest. From the point of view of hard economics, however, it appears to me that such would be good policy on the part of those who have made these profits, though I do not see how the thing can be done. I think if full publicity could be given by the Treasury as to the sources from which these excess profits were received by the Exchequer, that that would be the best cure for the wild talk, much of it unfair and prejudiced, which is passing current in the country at the present time. An investigation of that kind would disengage what is material from what is immaterial, what is relevant from what is irrelevant, and if that were done we should be a good deal further forward.
I want to pass to the second question raised by the hon. Member for Bolton (Mr. Tootill) yesterday, and that is with regard to the pledges that have been given by the Government. I do not think there is any reason to doubt that there is a feeling of great apprehension in the minds of trade unionists, men who have spent twenty, thirty, and forty years of their lives in fighting for these charters of their liberty, that the Government either will not or will not be able to restore those to them at the end of the day. If you are to take the words in their literal sense, in some ways I do not think the Government will be able to restore them at the end of the day. That is the difficulty. I do not think the Government have any lack of will to do it, but I see very practical difficulties in the way, because enormous changes have taken place in the meantime. My own hope is that not only will these liberties be restored, but that, in addition, much more of more permanent value than what has been given up will be given back to the working men. I am one of those who have always argued that the best solvent of labour trouble in this country is more trade unionism and better cooperation, and not less, and I hope that will be the upshot. I do not doubt, however, that the hon. Gentleman was right in saying that there is great apprehension, and that that is part of the reason for the industrial unrest at the moment. He also spoke of the loose, and, as he thought, and certainly as I think, very reprehensible talk about Russian revolution in this country. After all, there are various kinds of revolution. There is a school of predatory Socialism on the Continent which looks forward to an orthodox French Revolution, with machine guns at street corners, with riots, and fires, and things of that kind, as a thing greatly to be desired. I do not think that kind of predatory; Socialism has any real root in this country; but there is another kind of revolution altogether, and the kind of revolution that I would like, and have been anxious to get for years, is a revolution that would result in the working man making 40s. where previously he only made 20s. If you could get that kind of revolution we should solve a great many of our difficulties in this country. Certainly we should solve the housing question, and it would not be necessary to talk about advancing £10,000,000 without interest, or nonsense of that kind. I think a revolution of that sort might be made to pay its way, and I hope it will eventually. If it could come it would give the working men that to which I think they are fairly entitled, a great deal more elbow-room in the world, it would allow them to get their heads above water. That might be the position if improvements in manufacturing methods represented a saving on such an enormous scale as the Ministry of Munitions say they will, and I sometimes think there is a great deal in what they say.
My own view is that after the War workmen will come to see that as a method of industrial warfare strikes, which, after all, as a policy have not paid them very well, although a strike has often been a useful thing from their point of view, no doubt, are really out of date. I think that is so. The great need of every capitalist and shipowner after the War will be capital, and I think the position really boils down to this, that neither the State nor the private capitalist will be really willing to lend money to industrial concerns where labour trouble is known to be unsolved. It seems to me that pressure of that indirect kind on the part of trade unionists will be the best thing, and perfectly fair; and I think it is in that sort of way that the absolute compulsion upon capital—and I do not think it can come too fast—to come to terms with labour in an endeavour to avoid industrial unrest in the country will be brought about. It seems to me that only in that way will one of the essential conditions of security for the capitalist, and those who lend money to the capitalist, without which they cannot exist, be obtained. It is perfectly true that until many workmen learn to save large wages when they earn them it matters little whether their earnings are large or small. It is no good to a man to get £3 a week if he spends it all and saves nothing, and makes no attempt to save up the capital which he is told, quite rightly, is essential if he is to obtain proper control over the interests out of which he makes his living. There is not much that can be done at present except in paving the way, but I do not think that if one attempts that one is quite at the end of one's tether.
It is perfectly obvious that heavy taxation is to be upon us for the rest of our time, and I really think that that being so there is much to be said for increasing taxation at present. I think that, although death duties are a tax Upon capital there is much to be said for here and now—in the next Budget, next year, at all events—bringing into force a very considerable increase of death duties, very severely graded towards the top. I know that some of my Friends will say that that represents a tendency to attack capital. I deny it altogether. It is because I am anxious to conserve capital, without which neither the capitalist, so-called, nor the labouring man can get a fair chance, that I wish to see the fairest possible distribution of taxation in this country, and I see no reason to regard a proposal of that kind as inimical to the interests of capital. On the contrary, I think it might lead in the wisest way to its conservation more than would many other plans that are laid before the country. I want to say one word about inflation. The Chancellor of the Exchequer spoke of it yesterday, but it appeared to me, although the matter could not have been absent from his mind, that one important matter was absent from his speech, and that was that in dealing with a matter like inflation you cannot regard this country as a watertight entity. You cannot really, as things are managed now, and on the scale of expenditure which is prevailing all over the world just now, talk of inflation as affecting one country alone. I mean that whatever our degree of economy in this country has been, I think there is no doubt that the enormous expenditure elsewhere would have brought upon us some of the worst evils of inflation. That is one of the things that makes it difficult for a real economy campaign to make much difference.
The only other proposal with which I wish to deal is that of the Prime Minister to buy a loaf at 1s. and sell it at 9d. If I had to make the choice between buying dear and selling cheap and pocketing the difference, I would prefer that to regulations aiming at something and not securing it. At the same time, I cannot conceal from myself that that is very apt to mislead the publsic, and if one looks for a justification of it one must find it in political expediency alone. On that ground, I certainly would not take the responsibility of opposing it, but it does seem to be a proposal of very much the same kind as that which has been put forward with regard to houses, where £2,000,000 or £10,000,000 is to be provided, and no interest charged. Even if you make a loan of that kind, do not imagine that that money detaches from itself the ordinary burdens of a loan. Somebody has to pay the interest. Whether it be the county council, or in this case the man who gets the loaf for 9d. and does not realise that somebody else is going to pay the 3d., that would not really provide the country with a cheap loaf. That, I am sure, cannot be done at present. As a war measure, I think it may be justifiable, but I confess that I think it requires some explanation, and I hope that either the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Joint Financial Secretary to the Treasury will to-day endeavour to give some information as to how that is to be worked; or if that is not done I hope that Lord Rhondda will to-morrow, when, I think, he makes his statement, give the country some real enlightenment. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Bury that there is no practical limit to the amount of sacrifice which the working classes of this country are prepared to make to win the War. If I were asked to say whether the danger of dallying with unsound ideas of an unsound peace were more likely to come from the rich or from the poor, I would say that they are at least as likely to come from the rich. The Prime Minister is perfectly right, that the one thing that is wanted is steadiness and steadfastness on the part of the working classes, and for my part I think he will not be disappointed.
5.0 P.M.
The two hon. Members, the Member for Bury (Sir G. Toulmin) and the Member for Leith Burghs (Mr. Currie), have undoubtedly raised a very important question. The Commission of Inquiry into Industrial Unrest, whose Report has just been summarised by the right hon. Member for Blackfriars (Mr. Barnes), discusses the various causes of discontent among the industrial population and places first of all in the list this question of high food prices, and of food profiteering. I do not think it can be doubted that the steep rise in prices has affected acutely the working- class mind. The latest official figures show that in the large towns the increase in food prices since the outbreak of war has now reached 109 per cent., and the workmen complain that although they are wearing themselves almost to the bone with long hours and overtime, with extra stress and strain, the reward of this extra toil is more than taken from them by this great rise in the cost of living, and by the interests which inflate prices. The working people ask for effective control over these interests; they ask for a fair level of prices; they ask for improved schemes of distribution; and that is the matter to which we should be very glad if the Joint Financial Secretary to the Treasury will address himself this afternoon when he comes to reply. They have really been pressing the Food Controller to take such steps as will prevent the nation's extremity from being the profiteer's opportunity, and since month after month goes by and little or nothing happens they begin to lose what little faith they ever had in Food Controllers, believing that some of these Departments are really window-dressing and that they exist for the purpose of hiding the fact that powerful vested interests in this country are more powerful than the Government itself, and that the Government is afraid to interfere with them. The working-man at present, especially the munitions workman, is tied to his job, his wages are controlled, he cannot leave his employment without getting express permission, and what he complains of is that despite all this food prices are permitted to mount up and up, that food gambling in various commodities is allowed to continue, and that food monopolists are reaping a rich and abundant harvest. It is very largely because of that that you get industrial unrest, accompanied in many cases by very real bitterness, because these things are allowed to continue. Go into any distributing shop where working-class women are trading, and you will find them complain, and not only complain but complain angrily, that the increased prices have raised many necessaries beyond the reach of their children and themselves. They are convinced that private interests are coining profits out of their shortage and want. I warn the Government that if that feeling is allowed to deepen and to spread it will prove very dangerous from the standpoint of authority, and certainly will be the precurser of violent social upheaval. What are the facts as regards the large towns with respect to prices, as revealed by official figures? Cheese and eggs have gone up by 100 per cent., fish 150 per cent., flour and bread over 100 per cent., milk and butter over 60 per cent., margarine over 70 per cent., bacon over 80 per cent., and flank fresh beef 140 per cent. The rise in the cost of living, taking everything into account, rents and everything else, is now 75 per cent. I read an article yesterday in the "Manchester Guardian," and in it prices were contrasted as between those obtaining at the outbreak of war and those current the day before yesterday in Manchester. These figures are illustrative of the great rise in prices that has taken place. I will only cite one or two. Fresh eggs have gone up from 1d. to 3d., marmalade 4½d. to 10d., syrup from 2½d. to 7½d., maccaroni from 5½d. to 1s. 2d., sago from 2d. to 7d., sultanas from 5d. to 1s. 3d., currant3 from 4d. to 1s. 2d., cheese from 7d. to 1s. 6d., margarine from 6d to 1s. 2d., and tea from 1s. 2d. to 2s. 8d. Anyone who only thinks about the troubles of the working classes must realise how serious that advance is.
It is generally alleged that these prices represent more than the normal rise due to war conditions. It is perfectly true; you cannot have prices at their old level in view of the tremendous expenditure now taking place. But I think the practically unlimited issue of paper money and the inflation of the currency is one of the causes of that rise in prices. Take one instance, the case of meat. It is stated on very good authority that meat can be and is being brought from the Argentine and Australia to London and landed here, all the charges up to that point amounting only to 7d. per lb. or rather less. Yet that same meat is being sold in this country at from 1s. 4d. to 2s. per lb. It ought to be possible for the Government to make an investigation and find out why that state of things is possible. The official Board of Trade figures indicate that flank chilled beef has advanced in price by 170 per cent. and that breasts of frozen mutton have gone up 200 per cent. The workpeople hear that; it is one side of the picture. I will give another side. A company, the British and Argentine Meat Company, published a balance sheet the other day and this document showed that their profits, which amounted to £67,000 in 1914, had increased last year to £411,000, and this after meeting the special war taxation! Is anybody sur- prised, in view of figures like that, that there is unrest and that there is a desire for full investigation into the facts of the case? The workpeople say, and rightly so, that that sort of thing, especially at a time like this, is indefensible, and that the social arrangements which permit it to happen are equally indefensible.
I am not going to enter very far into the general question of profiteering. But I should like to put forward a suggestion which has been made by the Workers' War Emergency Committee that an investigation ought to take place by the Government into these charges in order that we may know whether they are well or ill-founded. For such a purpose you must have an impartial inquiry with the right to insist on the production of books, and you must let the facts be known. I am bound to say I think there is primâ facie evidence for an inquiry of that kind. Let me take the balance sheet of a very large distributing firm—Lipton's Limited. Before the War this firm never seemed flourishing; indeed, very often it appeared to be not far removed, as one sometimes thought from its financial statements, from a mild form of bankruptcy. But at a recent meeting of the company the deputy-chairman was able to announce that they had made a trading profit for the year of £441,184, which he declared to be the highest recorded in the history of the company, despite the fact that they had had to overcome unprecedented difficulties in trading owing to war conditions. He went on to say that a profit of £258,530 remained to be carried to the balance sheet; in other words more than double last year's profit had been earned at the cost of an increase of less than one-twelfth on last year's expenses. When you read facts like these in the newspapers, and when you bear in mind the increasing hardships many people experience in getting the food they need and the great additional hardship of women having to stand out in queues for many hours, you cannot be surprised that they are discontented when these figures of big profits are revealed. Compared then with the pay of the soldiers and the separation allowances made to soldiers' wives—allowances which are miserably inadequate—who can without scorn and indignation contrast these with the sums gained by the profiteer? I ask, what are the wives and what are the soldiers thinking of in regard to this matter? I have received myself letters which leave no doubt in my mind as to their views. Letters have also appeared in the newspapers. I read a number recently in the "Woolwich Pioneer," a paper printed at Woolwich which has taken up this question, and here is a typical letter from Mrs. Limbrick, the mother of a soldier. She lives at Walthamstow, and, in the letter, she says: appears to me up to the present to have pursued a policy of masterly inactivity. Lord Devonport took up his work with excellent credentials from the Prime Minister, who apparently looked upon him as his first swallow in the summer of a business Government. We were told in a speech in the House of Commons by the Prime Minister that Lord Devonport was an able administrator, especially in food matters, and that he was a man of great determination and force of character. The Prime Minister further expressed the opinion that he did not think Lord Devonport could be too thorough to please the country. But, alas, Lord Devonport was not very thorough, and did not please the country. He did not show any spirit of determination against vested interests; he rather gave us to believe that his sympathies were with the man who had something to sell rather than with the woman who had something to buy. At last his failure as a Food Controller became so marked that the "Times" newspaper began to get solicitous about his health. It is always a bad sign for a Minister whenever the "Times" begins to get concerned about his health. We know perfectly well that in regard to the present Government it can truthfully be said the "Times" has given, the "Times" can take away—blessed be the name of the "Times"! Lord Devonport, having failed in his task because of that failure possibly he has been added to the long list of Noble Viscounts. Some people may say that this is an argument against having any kind of Food Controller. But in my opinion it is no argument against having an efficient Food Controller. It is no use having a Food Controller unless he is thoroughly efficient, and I am convinced myself that a bureaucracy organised at Whitehall or Grosvenor House will never be able to solve the food problem. I do think, however, that if you call in the existing distributing agencies and ask them to take their share in this National Service, they will do it. I am convinced that the cooperative societies will do so and if you give them a fair chance they would undertake next week the fair distribution of food—of sugar and other things—to at least 15,000,000 of the people of this country. And they would do it, not from the standpoint of making profit, but from the standpoint of carrying out effective National Service, and I do not believe that many of the other traders would be behind the co-operative societies in that respect if the matter were put before them. I cannot believe that bureaucracy can solve this question. The Food Controller must not expect to keep things in his own hands or he will muddle, and the thing will break down.
We are told sometimes that we ought to leave this matter to the law of supply and demand. I never had very much respect for the law of supply and demand. Sometimes the ordinary law of supply and demand, even in times of peace, has broken down, and it has broken down hopelessly during this War. What does the law of supply and demand mean now? It means that you are to leave everything to the merest chance of the market under conditions where prices are bound to go up enormously, and therefore it is absolutely essential, if you have any regard for the public interest at all, that you must intervene, but you must intervene with common sense and in the right way, and in order to secure the right results. What I am certain of is that the Government must make up its mind as to whether private interests are going to rule or whether public interest is going to prevail. The Government has never been able to make up its mind on that vital issue up to the present time. It has been trying to do its best, but it says, "We must not get the backs up of any of these private interests, which are well organised and well represented in this House, and can cause a great deal of trouble; consequently we must not irritate them in any way." If the Government is going to take up that line, it must give up the idea that it is going to exercise any real effect so far as food prices are concerned. Unless you are prepared to say that public interests must come first, you may as well give up the thing as a bad job, and allow present prices to continue.
Some say that we ought to be satisfied because part of the excess profits is scooped into the Treasury. As a matter of fact many working people look upon excess profits as an additional cause of discontent, and argue that there would not be these excess profits if it were not for the higher prices charged, and the very tax is sometimes a temptation to inflate prices still higher, so that I am quite convinced that the Excess Profits Tax in itself does not carry us very far forward. I am not at all enthusiastic about the Excess Profits Tax either in respect of food or anything else. I do believe in very drastic taxation, but I do not believe the Excess Profits Tax is a fair form of taxation. There are numbers of problems that are going to emerge. One is going to be the problem of milk, and I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to the Food Controller, if he will do so, to tell us what steps are being taken in regard to safeguarding us in the event of a shortage of milk, which I think is exceedingly probable. I think if there is to be a shortage of milk we ought to lay down this very definite principle, that those who are not going to suffer are the children. Let everybody else go short, but see that you have a scheme of milk distribution that is going to allow the children to get all the milk they need. I think it is very unwise economy to starve the children, to rob them of the things they need, and I would like to know what steps the Ministry is taking to grapple with what is going to be in the coming winter a very urgent problem indeed.
Then, in regard to the question of bread. I find many complaints among young people, and by people whose digestion is rather weak, that all sorts of troubles are arising as a result of the present quality of bread and the present methods or mixing maize and flour in various parts of the country. The quality of bread seems to differ a great deal in different localities. In some places there is nothing to complain of at all, whereas in other places the quality is much poorer and is really causing illness. That is a matter the Food Controller ought to look into, and see that whatever is done ought to be done at least on a uniform scale, so as to secure, as far as possible, a uniform quality, and the bread ought not to be needlessly bad or needlessly provocative of illness. I have often urged that some better method is needed with regard to the distribution of sugar. There is a shortage of sugar, and people are supposed to get about ½ lb. per head per week, but the distribution is carried on on principles I confess I do not very clearly understand. I do know this, that there is grave inequality in the present distribution of sugar as between towns like Sheffield, Coventry, and Barrow-in-Furness, where the population has greatly increased owing to the influx of war workers, and other places where, on the whole, the population has decreased. It does not seem to me that that increase in certain towns, and the increase of customers at certain shops, is taken into account very much by the Sugar Commis- sion and by those responsible for the distribution of sugar. The result is that there are places where, if anything, they have got too much sugar on their hands, while there are other towns certainly where the people cannot get even the half-pound to which they are supposed to be officially entitled. I believe you cannot work it in anything like a fair way on the basis of the present arrangement. What I want to see is, not more official machinery, but a registration of customers so far as sugar is concerned, under which each customer would say where he is going to get his sugar week by week, and the number in family, and on that basis the retailer would make his demand to the wholesaler, who in turn would make his demand to the Sugar Commission, and every family by that method would get the share to which it was entitled, and no more.
I would like to see the Ministry of Food in a bold way take full control, but at the same time I want to see the Ministry use all the existing agencies, because I do not believe the work can be done without the existing agencies and the existing machinery. But if that is to be done there must be some measure of control, not merely at one stage, but at the various stages before the commodity reaches the customer. It does not seem any good to limit the farmer's profit if you allow the middle-man to take full advantage of that limitation of the farmer's profit; and if you are going to give the consumer the real benefit of any control it must not be control at one stage, but control at the various stages, and on a percentage basis, until the article reaches the consumer. I would like also to see in the various towns something in the nature of Food Control Committees set up by municipal authorities and urban council authorities. On these committees there ought to be representatives of the various interests, and certainly of working women, trade unions, and labour bodies, and those committees ought to take in hand the whole question of supervising and seeing that fair and equitable arrangements are made. I believe, also, a great amount of good could be done by the extension of municipal kitchens and co-operative cooking, by means of which, I am convinced, you could save in labour and tremendously in fuel and you could economise very much in the actual amount of food. I believe it could be better done, and, by a simple arrangement working round an area, it could be very easily distributed.
How does the hon. Gentleman propose that municipal kitchens could increase the supply of food in any particular district?
One of the points they would easily take in hand would be this: If any town is not getting its share of the available sugar supplies it would be the business of a committee organised on these lines to make representations to the proper quarter, and in exactly the same way, even apart from the question of the actual increase of supplies, it would be the business of the Food Control Committee to see, as far as possible, that distribution was being carried out on fair terms as between rich and poor. I believe a great deal of work could be done on those lines by such a committee.
Is the hon. Gentleman's proposal that it should be a municipal committee or a committee ad hoc?
I would have it elected under the authority of the local body, but I would certainly have an ad hoc committee. At the same time, I would have representatives on it of all the various interests who would be likely to be of service, making it a widely representative committee and one commanding confidence and support.
Do I understand the hon. Gentleman suggests that these committees should be inspectorial committees and not executive committees doing trading themselves?
They would be only committees for guidance, advice, and help in regard to all the problems, but not in the least governing the trading question. These, broadly speaking, are some of the suggestions I make. I am quite sure no one realises more the importance of the question than the hon. Member who will reply. He has for three years taken a very great interest in this question. He has spoken about it repeatedly in this House, and I hope that, now he is sitting on the bench opposite, his voice will speak out as clearly in regard to this question as when he was a humble Member of this House.
I am sure my hon. Friend who has just sat down has brought a very interesting question before the House, especially in the last few suggestions he has made. As regards this tremendous question of the distribution of sugar, anything that would stimulate the Government to an active discharge of their duty in that respect would be of great advantage to the nation. On the whole, I am rather disappointed with the Debate. We are on the Report stage of the greatest Vote of Credit ever submitted to any Parliament. This day twelvemonths exactly we were on the Report stage of another Vote, which was £200,000,000 less than this. A year has passed, and three years of the War are gone, and now we have this gigantic Vote of £650,000,000, which no doubt the House will pass in a few minutes. In the interesting discussion yesterday the late Chancellor of the Exchequer made a speech which gave a great deal of satisfaction to his friends. He laid down two principles to which I want to refer. He qualified his support of the Government. He said he would give his heartiest support to the Government to reduce this gigantic expenditure. I wish he were here now, because, if so, I would ask him if he would still give his support supposing the expenditure went up. If we are to have a Vote for another £1,000,000 or £2,000,000 a day a year hence, is his support still to continue? I do think we ought to get face to face with realities, and to say to the Government that the expenditure has gone as far as the nation can bear, and they ought now to begin to cut their coat according to their cloth, and, at any rate, secure that this gigantic expenditure will not be raised further. In reply to a written question about a month ago, the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave an explanation of great interest. I will only take one point of it. It was one of those curiously constructed explanations of the expenditure. The Chancellor, for some reason no one understands, took a period of nine weeks ending at a date last December, and compared those nine weeks with ten weeks ending on 14th June, or something of that sort. Why take these nine and ten weeks, because they have no interest to hon. Members, and they cannot be of interest to the country. This House follows the expenditure by the year, and we take one sum for the whole year, so much for the debt, so much for the Army, the Navy, and the Civil Service, and given in these few large items it can be understood. When, how- ever, you split it up into days, as if the Government was a sort of day labourer, it is done really to confuse people, and not to help us to get at the real facts. There was one item of miscellaneous expenditure given. This expenditure was not for the Army or the Navy, or for the things for which the Vote of Credit exists, but for other things, and these items total £150,000,000 a year more than they were six months ago. The House is prepared to find the money for the Army and Navy and the debt, but why should this miscellaneous expenditure not be kept within reasonable bounds, and why should this House not demand a closer examination of that expenditure? I protest against such items being included in a Vote of Credit at all. If the Government are going to become sugar merchants and wheat merchants, let them place an Estimate before the House.
I want to inform the House of a remarkable fact that occurred only yesterday. We had a report from a committee of merchants in the City of London which was adumbrated in the "Times." That report goes on very different lines to the speeches we have listened to in this Debate. It expresses regret that the services of the mercantile community have not been uniformly availed of by the Government, and it complains that the State has become the sole importer of goods, that when stocks are exhausted they are not replaced in the regular way in which it was accustomed to be done in this country, and it goes on to suggest that the Government should cease to act as a commercial intermediary and that the control of imports should be more fairly distributed among the distributors. It is a remarkable thing that these merchants, who are the most stalwart supporters the Government has, should be agreed upon recommendations of this kind. They feel that the best intelligence the Government has got is not being utilised, and that a great deal of waste is caused by the gross mismanagement of the Government. A good deal has been said about what is called profiteering. I would like to point out to the hon. Member for Attercliffe (Mr. Anderson) that as far as I can make out in the Report that has been published the word "profiteering" has not been used, and in the summary of the Report given by the Pensions Minister that word is not used.
The word "profiteering" is used in the main Report.
That is another of the things which has been kept secret by the Government. We have had fifteen Reports presented by these Commissioners without, so far as we know, the word "profiteering" being used, and yet there are hon. Members here who are trying to excite the country upon this question, and they are constantly using this meaningless expression. I was very much struck by the speech of the hon. Member for Bolton (Mr. Tootill). He kept talking about profiteering, and the only instance he gave was that some controlled firms who were giving up 80 per cent. of their profits to the Government have improved their office accommodation. I think if an hon. Member makes a charge of profiteering he should give a clear instance of it. If the hon. Member I have referred to goes back to Bolton and goes into any shop there he will get all the information he requires. If he goes into the co-operative stores and says, "I am a Member of Parliament, and I want a pound of tea, and I want to know what profit you are getting out of it," he will be told at once, and then the hon. Member could ascertain the proper facts. None of these charges have been brought home. My hon. Friend behind me (Mr. Currie) alluded to one firm, and it happens that that firm published a balance sheet, which shows that their average profits have fallen to what they were before the War.
I referred to the case of Spillers and Baker, and to the fact that loose language had been used with regard to them. If my right hon. Friend is referring to what I said, he must do so with some approach to accuracy.
I say that in regard to this firm another balance was issued for three years, and it shows immensely decreased profits.
That is why I said the talk about this firm was loose.
That is what I could not understand, because all our talk is loose. I heard my hon. Friend's speech, and if he extends the same imagination to what I say as I did to what he said, I think he will understand me perfectly. There was a bad year the year before these scattered cases were all brought up as profiteering. May I point out that 98 per cent. of all these businesses are carried on by limited liability companies, and if these instances of profiteering are true it would be quite easy to satisfy the House by giving the actual facts? I do not wish to defend profiteering of any kind, but my argument is that the distributors throughout the country, especially many of the distributors of food, are doing their part just as patriotically as any other class of the community. Now I come to the Report of the Commissioners. They complain of the high prices of food, but if they want to find the real cause of the increased prices they will have to look to the Government, and my hon. Friend who sits opposite (Mr. Clynes) will have a somewhat difficult case to answer because it will be found that when he inquires into the matter that wherever the Government have taken most control there prices have gone up the most. The hon. Member for the Attercliffe Division was a member of the Committee before which I gave evidence, and I was cross-examined. That Committee made no Report upon profiteering. It took every commodity one after the other, and did not make a single charge of profiteering. I think that is a remarkable thing. I am sure there is no want of intelligence on the part of the hon. Member for Attercliffe, and if any case of profiteering could have been found it would have been done.
I charge the Committee with a slight failure of duty in this respect, and it is that when they came to the commercial experiments of the Government they were not sufficiently critical, and tried to cloak over the actions of the Government. Take the case of sugar. In my evidence I urged that we should be allowed to import sugar freely into the country. If sugar is wanted, why should we not do this? The other day a friend of mine showed me a letter from Trinidad in which it is stated that distinct orders were given by the Government at Trinidad that Trinidad should not be allowed to export to England more than half the sugar they exported in 1916. The consequence is that ships leave with cargo space empty. The British Government will not allow sugar to be exported except by people to whom an import licence has been given in England, and people are fined, and sugar confiscated, if it is exported to England by them. That is a most extraordinary thing, and I cannot see why in times of emergency free imports should not be allowed running side by side with Government control. I have repeatedly urged that point. It is well known that the confusion with regard to sugar gets worse confounded, and there is much more complaint in regard to sugar than there was before the Government assumed control. Why you should take this matter out of the hands of the importers when the Government are making a most foolish arrangement, I really cannot understand. Sugar is now only imported at two or three ports, but why should it not be imported at any port?
I now come to tea. The Government have now commenced laying their hands on tea. For two and a half years after the War tea was not touched, and what was the result? Except for the increase of the Tea Duty tea was as cheap for the first two and a half years of the War as it was before the War. The old Government did not touch this commodity, but the moment the new Government came into office it seemed to be seized with a sort of fever to interfere with tea, and on the 26th February they forbade tea coming in from Holland and China. We want all the tea that people can manage to send here, and yet it has now been made a crime to allow the Dutch to bring Java tea here. As for China tea, that is not permitted at all. I think the prohibition of the imports of tea have been the greatest mistake, and there ought to be some effort made in this House to compel the Government to modify that policy. The Government then transferred their buying of tea from the dealers in London, who had always supplied them cheaply, to the growers in India and Ceylon, with the result that all the ships they could furnish were required to bring in Government tea, and now tea is a drug on the market in India and Ceylon. You can get it at 6d., 7d., and 8d. per lb., and the Government have fixed the price here at twice the price in India and Ceylon. I am glad to see my hon. Friend who represents the Shipping Controller (Sir L. Chiozza Money) here. I asked him the other day whether he could not provide some arrangement for bringing the tea to this country, and he said, "Oh, no; there are 90,000,000 lbs. of tea in the country, and that is enough." I do not want to be hard on my hon. Friend, but that was a singular example of the mistake the official mind makes compared with the business mind.
Would the right hon. Gentleman rather have tea brought in than bread at the present time, because that is the choice?
I would like both.
You cannot have both because of the lack of shipping. Therefore, you have to choose between bread and tea.
I am only putting this argument. I believe there is a very large stock of bread in the country, larger now than at any other period.
That is the reason.
Exactly; they have overdone it. What is the good of having bread that you cannot eat? I want, however, to keep the attention of the House to tea. The price of tea in London is fixed at double the price at which the Government can buy it in Calcutta and Colombo. Why should not a few ships for a few weeks be used to bring in this tea, so as to ease the situation instead of creating this great famine in tea? There is free tea that is not controlled, and it again is double the price. There is a perfect panic in the tea trade since the Government commenced to purchase. By this interference the Government are first prohibiting the import, secondly they are not providing the ships, and thirdly they are devoting all their attention to wheat instead of scattering their forces and providing the necessaries under each head as business men would have done. The Government themselves are responsible for the high prices that the people have to pay. They have taken the distribution into their own hands, and they cannot ride off by putting the blame on to certain sections of the community. I will mention one or two other articles. My right hon. Friend who is now a Viscount and who was the Food Controller (Viscount Devonport) made a speech in the other House on the subject of beans. He said he had fixed the price at £37 per ton. Everybody was filled with delight, thinking that they would get beans the next morning at 4½d. per lb. What happens? The Government bought all these beans and peas and various things, and then they kept discussing and disputing among themselves. I am glad my hon. Friend (Mr. Clynes) was not there, and I warn him to keep out of such disputes. They were disputing about four or five weeks, and then they began to issue orders. When the orders came out it was found that the beans which they had bought at £37 per ton were to be sold at £50 per ton, but by that time they were not wanted. All the time that the beans were required the Government were issuing orders, making speeches, and changing the Food Controller, and nobody could get beans. Now all these cereals are a drug on the market, and are being eaten up by weevils and being put into bread, and we are being ruined by bad bread.
The rice was taken over in January, and the price for the best Burma rice was fixed at £23 per ton. The Government preserved the usual period of silence, and when dealers said to them, "Will you sell us a little rice?" they replied, "We are thinking about that." At the beginning of April they at last began to sell, and the rice they bought at £23 per ton they sold at £26 10s. per ton. I want to know what becomes of the balance of £3 10s. If there is any profiteering, I charge the Government with being the main profiteer in these commodities. Java rice, which they bought at £26 5s., is now being resold to the same importers at £34 10s. My hon. Friend will have to get himself up in these figures, because when you talk of food you talk of nothing. Food consists of a great variety of commodities, and the happiness of the people depends largely upon the distribution of these commodities. The people who have done it for generations have been attacked because they have done honest work, and now they are going to be abolished, and you are going to let the local authorities do it. These people who understand the details will come to you and ask you what you are doing with the difference, and how the thing is going on. I now come to bread. This is going to be a tremendous matter. I believe my hon. Friend has got a great speech up his sleeve about bread. It will be one of the most startling things. When the Government came into office wheat was 60s. per quarter. They put it up to 90s. Then they reduced it to 78s. They got frightened, and now they are going to introduce a law by which bread is to be sold at certain prices at the cost of the community. My right hon. Friend, who made an interesting speech about this subject yesterday, made a mistake. He said that the poor were going to get their bread at reduced prices. It is not the poor; it is your bread and my bread that is going to be sold at a reduced price, and that out of the taxpayers' pocket at a time when we are being asked for £650,000,000. If that is not feeding the dog on its own tail I do not know what is. I asked my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether he had not bought a great deal of cheap wheat, and where it was lying, and he told me, "Yes, we have bought 3,000,000 tons of it." I said, "Where is it?" and he said, "In Australia." The Government buy this wheat before they can ship it. Why do they interfere before they can do it in a businesslike manner?
We did not buy it.
The hon. Member had the duty of bringing it over, and he ought to have brought it over. He must not allow those desires—if he has them—of proving his predecessors in the wrong to carry him to the point of losing great sums of money to the nation in cases of this kind. These vast quantities of wheat were bought at 32s. and 38s. per quarter, and I understand the freight was 13s., so that it could be landed here at £50 per quarter. If this wheat were brought in, then the loaf could be distributed at 9d. and 8d., and you would bring us back to the happy days of the late Government. It rests upon the shipping Controller to do this. The Government really ought to pause before selling the loaf at a cost to the taxpayer. It is not a new experiment. It has been tried by Governments in distress for about 2,000 years, and it has never come out very well. There is no necessity for it. No case has been made out for it here. I was looking at the Board of Trade Returns the other day, and there never was less unemployment. I do not want to accuse the labouring classes of profiteering, but I question, even with the high prices, if they were ever so well off or if there were ever as little distress. Even the old age pensioners have got 50 per cent. added to their allowance, not that it is too much now. At any rate, a good case ought to be made out for this experiment, but when it is examined I do not think that there is any case that will justify it. When the Government are spending money at this rate, I do not think that they ought to come down to the House and blurt out in answer to a question the announcement of a policy of this kind so far-reaching and so startling. It is a very grave matter indeed. If you begin to supply bread to everybody, the rich and the poor, including all the Members of this House, under cost, why not tea, why not sugar, and why not all the other articles? "Man does not live by bad bread alone." Yet the Government, without a moment's consultation with this House, which is always ready to assist them, plunge into an experiment of this kind. I am very glad to be able to mention an article with regard to which I am in entire agreement with the hon. Member for the Attercliffe Division (Mr. Anderson). I cannot understand why the Government have bought up the whole supply of meat in Australia so that an enterprising importer cannot get any, and, as I understand, the whole supply in Argentina. They got it at 7½d. and 8d. per lb.
No; 6¾d.
6.0 P.M.
I always put the thing a little bit over in order to avoid making mistakes. They give the broker only 2 per cent. and they allow the wholesale dealer only ½d. per lb., but they go no further. Why do they not fix the price to the consumer at 10d. or 1s.? The truth is that when they are enunciating a great policy the Government do not think like ordinary business men. While the Food Controller interferes with the wholesale price he does nothing for the consumer. If the Government interfere in this wholesale way with the market they should certainly take action in the way that I have indicated. There is one other branch of activity to which I must draw attention. I went to see the Food Controller the other day, and I found him installed in a most splendid ducal palace. The next day what did I hear? That the Food Controller had become discontented with his quarters and that after taking this ducal mansion and various other houses in Grosvenor Street and Grosvenor Square he was to come down to Whitehall. If he is coming so near he may very soon turn us out of the House of Commons. I ask, in all seriousness, why this mania for acquiring offices, spending money and building up a gigantic staff? Why should the Food Controller, none of whose experiments have been singularly successful, come to this House and say "I have done such splendid work "—in fact, he has tumbled from one failure to another during the six months—"now I will produce my trump card and take a palatial establishment in Whitehall and overawe the House of Commons." I protest against it. In little matters connected with his own administration he ought to practise that economy upon which one of these days the country will insist. While the Government is giving us bread at the cost of the taxpayer by means of a subsidised loaf, it is pursuing another policy in the opposite direction. It is subsidising the man who produces the bread, the farmer. We are passing through this House a Bill to give him high prices for his wheat. When we passed the Excess Profits Duty, of which my hon. Friend (Mr. Houston) speaks so lovingly, we exempted the farmer. A few years ago, when we were dealing with rates, we abated half the rates for the farmer. Not satisfied with that, we find that the price of bread will be so high that we have to subsidise him at the cost of the taxpayer, and we have to subsidise the consumer at the cost of the taxpayer. The two policies are distinctly opposed to each other. We should adopt one or the other, and examine it and follow it. If you do not give a relief in taxation, then give a subsidy to every farmer and pursue the policy of building him up, leaving the rest of the community to deal with him. Do not burn the candle at both ends, as we are doing under this new proposal. When the House of Commons considers the matter, it must hesitate before it goes further with the suggestion. There is another point I wish to put forward. This country is full of capable business men.
They are all in the Government.
I was going to allude to that point. My Irish Friends are always so quick that they take the words out of one's mouth. I do not believe that the Government has really done anything yet in the way of utilising the services of business men. They have put a few ornamental business men in in order that they may advertise their names. We have seen one of them at the Post Office; he was here not a few minutes ago. A friend of mine who was there once said he would much sooner be manager of the Army and Navy Stores. At any rate, these business men do not influence the policy of the Government, and apparently cannot prevent them making hideous mistakes with re- gard to matters I have mentioned. I read in the newspaper this morning—I believe the facts were elicited by "Truth"—that they had bought 39,000 horses in America at £40 apiece which were never delivered to them. If they had employed a business man, they would have obtained delivery of the horses, and, perhaps, would not have had to pay so much for them. I see that the other day a ship laden with frozen meat arrived in Liverpool, but I understand it was sent back immediately, because there was no room for it in the cold stores. Why should it not have been brought out on to the street and sold at cheap prices? A friend of mine in Manchester mentioned to me the fact that he had large cold storage there, and he said they were half empty. That is what occurs when the Government manages these things. I suggest that instead of the Government dealing with this branch of national work, with which our Civil servants are not qualified to deal, the Government should adopt the principle of the report made by the merchants of London, namely, of getting hold of merchants in connection with every commodity and giving them full control, on the condition that they fixed low prices, gave the people a good system of distribution, and gave them what they wanted. If that were done the country would be far safer in this emergency in trusting to business men, and would not suffer from the mistakes to which I have called attention.
I do not propose to follow the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lough) into a discussion of the prices of individual articles, nor into the question of the policy which he seems to regard as right for the people of this country. I do not agree that the Government has been doing too much, but I believe the country expects the Government to deal with the questions of the supply and the prices of food, and that it is because they have depended too much on the outside interests and the outside machinery that they have failed to achieve what ought to have been achieved by a better arrangement. May I say one word with regard to the observations of the hon. Member for Bury (Sir G. Toulmin) in opening this discussion? He referred to the intense public feeling which exists all over this country with regard to this matter. I can bear him out very strongly from my own experience in the Metropolis. I hardly believe that the Gov- ernment appreciate accurately enough the extraordinary feeling outside with respect to their action regarding prices and the supply of food. The public catch hold of the salient facts. One of those facts is that the average increase in the retail prices of food generally is over 100 per cent. above the prices which held good in 1914, while the regular wages have in no way kept pace with that increase. From the Return which was issued to this House not long ago showing the rates of wages of agricultural labourers in different parts of the country, it appeared that the highest increase as between 1914 and 1917 was about 30 per cent., and, although in the towns and in certain industries in particular the increase has been greater than that, at the same time it is nothing like the increase in the cost of living. That is a fact which is taken hold of very easily by people outside, and they ask, "How is it that this has come about?" They discover, what everybody knows, that there has been a certain amount of money taken from the consumers that has gone into the pockets of what are called profiteers. I quite agree that the question of profiteering has been very much exaggerated and that a great deal more is made of it than it is really worth. At the same time we are bound to realise that there have been not only individual cases, but a considerable number of cases where these enormous profits have been shown to exist, and it is these cases which do harm among the population of the country.
The suggestion made by the hon. Member for Attercliffe (Mr. Anderson) was one which the Government ought to take into consideration. It was that there should be, if not an inquiry, at any rate some kind of a report on this particular question, which would inform the country of the true facts in regard to profiteering, not only as regards shipping, but as regards milling and the other manufacturing industries which are supposed to have yielded very great profits. It would do more to quiet the indignation in the country and to reconcile them to the payment of higher prices, which we must realise are inevitable, than anything else that could be imagined. Another fact is that the people have realised that the Government has made very serious mistakes. Of course, in a War like this, you cannot avoid making mistakes, but the feeling abroad is that on this matter of the prices and the supply of food errors have been made which might have been Avoided. If you take some of the most essential foodstuffs of every people—for instance, bread and potatoes—you would think it was the duty of any Government to see that there was a supply of breadstuff and potatoes provided from the very outset. At the beginning of the War it was often customary for us to criticise adversely the steps taken by our enemies in regard to this matter, yet I venture to say that the interference with private enterprise which was initiated by the Governments of Germany and Austria, although they were not successful at first, has proved now the right course that a Government should take. Our Government has been much too averse from interfering with private interests from the very beginning as regards the very most important items of food for this country.
I should like to make that point good. If you take the official returns and compare the prices of the ordinary bread consumed by the population and potatoes in England, Berlin, and Vienna, you find that the increase in the price of bread in 1915 over 1914 was 41 per cent. in England, in Berlin 53 per cent., and in Vienna 83 per cent. I remember at that time we often heard adverse criticism against the actions of our enemies in that respect. They undoubtedly did increase the cost of these most necessary products above the increase in our country. In July, 1916, the cost of bread in England was 44 per cent. more than in 1914; in Berlin, 42 per cent.; so that they reduced the increase from 53 per cent. to 42 per cent.; and in Vienna, 75 per cent. as against 83 per cent. There, again, they succeeded in reducing the price of bread. In December, 1916, which is the last date at which it is possible to compare the prices, the price of bread in this country was 33 per cent. over the price in 1914; in Berlin it had been brought down to 21 per cent. over the 1914 price; and in Vienna, again, it had been reduced to 68 per cent. over the 1914 price. The same thing holds good in regard to potatoes. The price of potatoes in England has been continually increasing. In 1915 it had hardly increased at all. In 1916 it was 109 per cent. over the 1914 prices; and in December, 1915, it was 130 per cent. over the 1914 prices. But in Berlin in 1915 it was 75 per cent., in 1916 it was still the same, and in December, 1916, it had been reduced to about 37 per cent.
Could they get them?
Yes, I believe they got them. In Vienna it was 60 per cent. in 1915 over the 1914 prices. In July of 1916 it was reduced to 25 per cent., and in December, 1916, it was reduced to a less price than the price in 1914. They were cheaper actually in December, 1916, in Vienna than they were in July, 1914. These figures appear from our own public records. Therefore it is perfectly clear that in both those countries the authorities have succeeded much more than we have succeeded in keeping down the prices of the absolutely essential products. It is quite true that in other articles there has been the opposite movement, especially in meat. In both Vienna and Berlin the price of meat has gone up to a greater extent since 1914 than in this country, and there are other articles also of which the price has increased more largely abroad than it has here. But my point is that the Governments there have succeeded in at any rate maintaining the prices of these two most essential articles, bread and potatoes; and what one fears is that, unless we can attain something like the same position, we may find that from the point of view of this War the high prices of the staple commodities in this country will have a very damaging effect upon our progress and our fortunes in this War. It is essential, it seems to me, that we should do something to cheapen these articles, at any rate to the individual consumer. That is very important from the point of view of the irritation and the troubles which will arise from the excessive cost of food, but still more from the point of view of the nation. I do not know what effect this proposal to reduce the loaf from 1s. to 9d. will have upon the nation. It undoubtedly will enable people to get more bread for less money. That will be a certain advantage. But if the State has got to pay all this extra amount it is no saving or economy to the nation, and we have to find some method whereby the article can be got at a less price for the nation. That, of course, could only be done if we go to the source. The very useful report which was produced by the Departmental Committee on Prices explains one or two things very clearly. It is extremely useful to the country that they should know it. For instance, taking the case of bread, in their opinion the baker has made practically no profit. The increase in the price of bread is just balanced by the increased cost of the flour. Also, although this is a little more dubious, it seems that the profit has not gone to the miller. Thus it appears that the chief item of the increased cost arises from the increased cost of wheat. It has arisen from increased freights to a certain extent, but still more from the increase in the cost of wheat. That increase is indicated by these figures. The price of wheat at Liverpool has increased from 36s. in 1914 to 74s.—102 per cent.—and the price in New York has increased from eight dollars to fifteen, or about 90 per cent. Therefore the great source of the increased price has been the extra amount which has had to be paid to the producers.
As regards freights, as far as one can understand, the Government have at last put itself in the position in which a great proportion of the freightage is restricted, or else is under their control. I suppose the producer is not under their control as yet, but I cannot help thinking that it ought to be possible now for the Government to get the producer under its control. To begin with, here is home-grown wheat. That might have been commandeered and the prices fixed long ago, and I cannot help thinking that was one of the initial mistakes which were made. We did not limit the price, two years ago, to a price which the farmers would then Have been only too pleased to accept. But a great quantity of wheat comes into this country from India, Australia, and Canada, and in all those countries it ought to have been possible long ago, and I hope it will be possible now, to limit the price that is to be received by the producer, and also to give rights over the supply to the joint Governments of the Allies. But the same consideration now applies to America, and if America can be induced to join in with that policy it would be possible for us to regulate the price to the producer of almost all the wheat that comes to this country. Of course, the Argentine would not be affected. That surely is a policy which it would be very wise for our Allies to adopt. It is most important for America now that this country should be able to keep its end up. One of the greatest difficulties in doing so is the enormous cost of the necessities of life, and now that we are one joint concern the Governments might arrange, and I hope will arrange, that at any rate no further increase in the price of corn will be allowed to the producers anywhere. We have just seen the process that is going on in France. I understand that the French have now fixed their maximum price and decided that the Government can under the circumstances commandeer the whole supply. It seems to me to be essential that that should be the system in any war, and if we were unhappily engaged in another war after this one, one of the first things which our experience of this War would teach us would be to follow the example of the German Government in 1914 and take over the responsibility for the supply of all those matters which are absolutely essential to the maintenance of the population. Unless we can do something in this direction we shall find that the circumstances amongst our own people are such that they will absolutely hinder the conduct of the War. It is because we are so desirous that the War should go on in the most successful way that we are anxious to hear from the Government what steps they propose to take to deal with this very difficult problem.
I should like to add a few words to the request which has been made to the Government to consent to the appointment of a Select Committee of the House to inquire into the whole food problem and the steps which the Government have taken to deal with it. Under stress of war circumstances the Government has undertaken duties which hitherto have been entirely unknown to Governments in this country. It has indeed become a huge trading corporation, and not only has it taken over dealing in many articles of prime necessity in our daily life, but it has taken over a monopoly in the dealing with those articles. It has always been a general rule that trading companies should call their shareholders together annually, present properly audited accounts to them, and lay a full and frank statement of their trading before them. The people of this country are shareholders with the Government in this trading venture, and they are in an unlimited partnership, and are liable to the full extent for all losses sustained by the Government in their trading venture. I found in my Constituency that there were many bitter complaints about the scarcity and high price of food and the unequal distribution of many articles, and I set myself to work to find out where the complaints arose. With that object in view I got into touch with the small shopkeepers' organisation in Middlesbrough, and spent some time in visiting many of the small grocers' shops, especially in the poorer part of the town. Of course, the greatest complaint of all was the scarcity of sugar. I found that people felt that there must be a scarcity of sugar, that there was not a full or normal supply, and that they were not getting their proportion which was due. So I got a copy of this Sugar Order, which is the Regulation on which is based the distribution of sugar for the year 1917. It is a Memorandum issued by the Sugar Commission on 1st January this year, and is headed, "The Wholesale Distribution of Sugar." It can be divided under three principal heads.
The first head is that the year 1915 shall be taken as the period which shall decide the quantity of sugar to be allowed in 1917. On that heading I should like to ask why 1915 was taken? It was the first year of abnormal trading in sugar, and in that year the big houses sold sugar at cost price. The smaller people were unable to sell it at cost price, and were bound to put on a small profit, and consequently their sales of sugar went down in 1915. Also, why is the whole of 1915 taken as the basis period? The first man I came across had started business on 15th August, 1915, and from August to December he had sold from two to three stones of sugar per week, and because he only had that period of about five months to prove his dealings in sugar he was only entitled to 7 lbs. of sugar per week. The second heading under which this Order can be divided is the quantity of sugar which can be allowed to each retailer. That, of course, depends upon the available supply. In some cases it is 50 per cent., and in other cases 60 per cent. Under Clause 7 I think the whole difficulty arises in regard to the distribution of sugar. It states that the wholesalers shall forthwith agree with their 1915 customers as to the quantity of sugar delivered to them in 1915, which is the quantity upon which the distribution for 1917 shall be based, and that this basic quantity shall be the total of all descriptions obtained from all sources. For some reason or other this document does not say how the wholesaler and the retailer are to agree. There is no method laid down by which they can arrive at an agreement, but by some Regulation or some new Order it has been decided that the retailer must produce to the wholesaler his invoices for 1915 before he is entitled to draw his sugar. Many very small shopkeepers, owing to insufficient accommodation and lack of clerical staff, have not any invoices for 1915. It is hardly fair to compel them to produce their invoices two years old, because it is well known that these people do not keep their invoices. They destroy their invoices after they have paid them in about three months' time, and the consequence is that the small shopkeeper cannot get the sugar to which he is entitled. On the other hand, the wholesaler, who is often also a retailer, draws his sugar from the Commission, and the retailer cannot prove his claim, consequently the sugar has a tendency to accumulate in the hands of the wealthier trader, and the poorer parts of the town have not the same opportunity of obtaining their fair proportion of sugar. In addition to that, I found that there was serious complaints about the shortage of the best condensed milk, and that children were suffering very considerably because the women could not buy those milks with which to feed them. I also found that there was a total lack of the two great substitutes for sugar, namely, treacle and jam.
There was also very serious complaint about the quality of flour, which varies from month to month. I was told that in February the quality of the flour was good and wholesome, but, in the words of my informant, "the March quality was rotten." The flour would not knead, and the people who bake their bread in any quantity wasted it after a day or two. In the North of England the bulk of the bread is baked at home, and bread is not bought from the shops and bakehouses as is done in the South. There was also very serious complaint about the rise in price of meat, vegetables, and foodstuffs generally. There was a feeling that the Government were not sincere in their desire to prevent the rise in the cost of living. There was a feeling that the Government would not take measures to prevent profiteering because they were directly interested in the amount of plunder extracted from the taxpayer, that they were interested to the extent of 80 per cent. of the excess profits. While junior members of the Government made vigorous speeches denouncing the profiteer, it always seems to me that it is rather like Satan reproving sin. Thes biggest profiteer of all at the moment is the Government, and I would suggest to the Government that if they really are sincere in trying to prevent the rise in the price of living that they should prevent excess profits from being made at all, and that if they are made they should return them to the consumer and not pocket them, and that they should base their taxation on pre-war profits and not on post-war profits, making allowance, of course, for any man who has embarked capital into new enterprises. I would suggest that inquiries should be made into two matters over which there has been much controversy in my own Constituency. One is the Early Closing of Shops Order. There has been a prosecution in my Constituency of a man for selling a chicken after nine o'clock on Saturday night. His statement to me was that if he had not sold it it would have gone bad and been wasted. Is there much food being wasted under that Closing Order, especially on Saturday night? The other point I would like to ask about is whether the Food Hoarding Order is right. We are told not to hoard food, and I think that the people, to do them justice, are not hoarding; but is it true that in 1914–15 there was ample sugar, and that the Commissioners were offering a bonus for taking sugar away from the wharf? If that was so, why were not people encouraged to buy sugar and to store it so that when the scarcity came there would be supplies of sugar in the house? Is there a surplus of food anywhere to-day which can be stored? If so, I would ask the Government to let the people have it so that they may store it, notwithstanding their Food Hoarding Order.
The practical speech to which we have just listened raised a number of questions which will, no doubt, be referred to by my hon. Friend (Mr. Clynes), who now represents the Food Controller in this House. May I be allowed to congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his appointment to his post? In doing so I am expressing, I am sure, the opinion of hon. Members in every quarter of the House who have learned to respect him and his public action here, just as we all respected him in the past, when he was a public man in Oldham, and I had the honour of representing him in this House. In those days I never knew him to do anything but what was greatly to his credit, both in public and private life, and I am sure that his record in his new office will justify all the expectations of his friends. My hon. Friend has not the advantage of being what is usually called a business man, and I congratulate him on the immunity from criticism that that will bring him. When the right hon. Member for Islington (Mr. Lough) was asking that there should be more business men put in control of our public affairs, I could not avoid looking back on my own experience and remembering that the mere fact that I had had some previous business experience was one of the grounds on which I was subjected to the most severe criticism. Now we find that office after office is filled with men who have been deeply engaged in business right up to the very eve of their appointment. I should never think of criticising them for a single moment because of that qualification. I can only say that so long as we appoint these men we ought to trust to their public honour never to use their public position for private advantage, an immunity which I should claim for myself if I were ever placed in the same position in future.
The topic which has been under discussion this afternoon lends itself to practical considerations urged by business men, both in and out of office, and it is remarkable that this subject, which undoubtedly is stirring the public minds more than any other in our big industrial centres and in our country districts, is one which the House as a whole dealt with rather languidly, and which even now appears to excite much more interest, not in the main topic of an abundant supply, but in the purely private question as to whether or not somebody or other is getting profits to which he is not entitled. I would suggest that the true way of approaching this problem is not to be found by hunting the scapegoats. It is to be found in a better regulation of our system of distribution, purchase, and finance, and that these three alone will provide the Food Controller and his able assistant with quite enough tasks without inviting them to embark upon a criminal investigation department. What the public does ask is why the great increases in prices which every week appear to have gone higher to the buyer go on. Who are the men who have apparently increased their profits or their turnover by reason of these increases in prices? Is it the retailer? So far as I was able to ascertain when I was at the Board of Trade, retailers in some districts and on some commodities undoubtedly made more profits in the first few months of the War than they had made in the few months previous to the War. But it was equally certain that as time went on these same retailers found a readjustment of accounts, and many of them were unable to keep up the high level of profit which they had earned or which they had gained in the earlier months of the War. Certainly the Committee on Food Prices entirely endorsed the view which we had formed at the Board of Trade that where there had been cases of undue profit earning by retailers it had been in patches, only in a few districts, and only on some few commodities. The findings of that Committee were endorsed by my hon. Friend the Member for Attercliffe (Mr. Anderson), and I think he will bear me out when I say that so far as the great increases were concerned they cannot be attributed to what is called profiteering on the part of the retailer in the main, although there were some isolated instances.
Was it the wholesaler? Undoubtedly, with the heavy rise in prices where men held heavy stocks they were bound to make larger profits. That itself has been shown in the accounts which were published of some wheat-importing companies, but that adjusted itself after a time, and so far as the wheat importing companies are concerned, I am absolutely certain that at the present moment they are making no more than their pre-war profits, and that the reason why the earnings, or profits, or margins, which they earned in the early months of the War cannot be repeated is entirely due to Government action. The setting up of the Wheat Commission from its creation in 1916 put an end to any possibility of that, so far as the wholesaler was concerned, in wheat, and yet the price has gone up continuously ever since. We may safely say that whatever may have been done up to September, since September, although the price has gone up continuously, it is impossible to say that a single penny of that increase was due to the larger profits made by the wholesale importer, unless it be that the Wheat Commission is getting secret profits of which we and the public know nothing. I cannot believe from what I know of their policy that they are attempting to do any such thing. Indeed, I am not sure that if they attempted it they would not be guilty of an illegality, as no charge can be made on the subject without the express authority of this House.
What of the other wholesalers? The wholesalers in meat? I am not aware of the present system of dealing with imported frozen meat, but I can say that at the time when I was responsible for the importation of frozen meat into this country the profits of wholesalers were also regulated, and were regulated on the prewar basis. So far as home-grown meat is concerned, I can offer no information to the House, but it would be interesting to know from my hon. Friend, when he replies, whether the Food Controller now has information which would go to show that undue profits are being made by the wholesalers in home-grown meat. I particularly will be interested to know whether he thinks that undue profits are being made by the fatteners of store cattle or by the breeders of store cattle. The wholesale merchants in fish throughout the whole of this War have occupied a difficult position because supplies have been so low. But it is said that even now, fish, which is now marketed at the price accepted by the wholesaler, is destroyed in the fish market. I have only heard that as a rumour. If it is true that this is going on in some of our fish markets, I need hardly say that I feel quite sure that my right hon. Friend the Food Controller and his colleagues will see that no more fish is destroyed, so long as there is a shortage of meat in any of our great towns.
If there is profiteering by the wholesaler in all of the smaller commodities, by all means expose it, but I do earnestly suggest to the Committee that general talk about profiteering runs diametrically in an opposite direction to that which the Government wish to attain. By their own policy they are attempting to restore public confidence in those who are responsible for the supply of our food, and I need hardly say that general accusations of profiteering which are not substantiated in fact do more to disturb the public mind than any action of the Government can do in the direction of restoring it. Therefore, I urge strongly that there should be no more talk about profiteering without substantial evidence being given in support of these accusations. I doubt very much whether at the present time there is much profiteering on the part of the wholesaler. If there is I am sure that the attention of the Food Controller and Government experts will be given in all quarters to it, and steps taken to put a stop to it, provided that we keep in view the fact that we must maintain our supplies.
Is the rise in prices due to the inland carrier, who is responsible for the distribution? It cannot be high railway rates that are the cause, for the railway rates have not been put up. If it were the inland carrier the Government is now getting the benefit of the whole of our railway revenue, such as it is, and therefore no individual should be charged with profiteering by the carriage of food unless it is the Government itself. Is it the small distributors in towns? They are mixed up with the retail or wholesale houses, and under the new system the Food Controller could easily ascertain whether or not it is the distributor. Undoubtedly the distributor has great difficulties at present owing to the shortage of labour, horses, motor wagons, and the like, and I think that the main criticism that can be offered as to the distribution of the food is not that it is too expensively distributed, but that it is too unevenly distributed. That is undoubtedly the case with sugar, and with other commodities as well.
Is it ocean carriage? One comes round to this subject again and again in our Debates. I propose to say a word or two about that. We hear rather a lot of talk about profiteering. The main criminal in the minds of those who talk loosely upon this subject appears to be the shipowner. Let us see how much the shipowner is open to the charge of profiteering out of the carriage of food. On the carriage of wheat and flour the amount that the shipowner gets, whether he be a private individual or a public corporation, is very easily ascertained. At the present moment at the outside the total amount of freight paid to the shipowner does not reach ¾d. on the 11d. or 1s. loaf. I will go further and say that from the very beginning of the War the amount paid to the shipowner for the carriage of wheat and flour from the United States or from Canadian ports to this country has never reached a penny on the 11d. or 1s. loaf. The steps that were taken to prevent the shipowner getting undue profits out of wheat, if he were so minded, must be within the recollection of some Members of this House. In the first place, the general working of the market had shown that across the Atlantic freight was rising and likely to rise unduly. The Government then decided, on the advice of myself and of a Cabinet Committee presided over by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that one of the best ways, the best way as we thought at the time—and we were unanimously of that opinion: I am sure that my right hon. Friend will not resent my saying that he was as much in accord with that view as the other members of the Committee and he signed that Committee's Report without any reservation—we were of opinion, therefore, that the Committee presided over by the Deputy-Speaker, known as the Whitley Committee, provided the best way of securing sufficient tonnage for the carriage of wheat and flour to this country on the most economic basis, and was preventing by its own artificial and drastic action an artificial rise, in freight from America and Canada. On the contrary, its operations resulted in artificially reducing freight.
That Committee succeeded in maintaining wheat freights across the Atlantic at a level, I believe, of something like 8s. 6d. a quarter. At one time it succeeded in getting it down as low as 7s. 6d. a quarter. For the time being it worked so well that we were able to get into this country all the wheat we required, owing to the action of this Committee, and get it into this country at a cost which never reached a penny on the 4-lb. loaf. That was one way of checking undue profiteering—on the carriage of wheat in this country. It was not all. When the Government decided to set up the Wheat Commission they decided that the Whitley Committee must go, that now there were to be no private merchants, that there should be only one merchant—the Government—and that wheat was to be brought into this country only at Blue Book rates. From September of last year up to the present time the Government, at all events, has never paid more than Blue Book rates for the carriage of wheat to this country. Whatever may have been the profits made by individual companies like those of which the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave an example recently, or large corporations which are well known to Members of this House, the profit was not made out of the carriage of wheat or flour. I state that without the least reservation, and I do it for this reason: When prejudice is raised against any trading class of the community I suggest to the House that that class is as much entitled to have justice done to it as any one individual, and there has been a general charge made against those who are interested in shipping, that they are battening and fattening on the privations and hardships of the poor. So far as wheat and flour are concerned there is not a word of truth in that.
And meat.
I am coming to meat. My hon. Friend need not be impatient. I know that he has always been impatient on the subject of the carriage of meat. Let us turn to meat. When we had to bring frozen meat to this country it might have been possible for us to be in the position of having to meet not only all the shipowners who are now accused of a desire to profiteer, but also the great American Meat Trust. The first step to be taken by us in dealing with it was to commandeer or requisition all the refrigerating space of all the vessels trading to this country, and that has operated from the beginning of the War to such an extent that meat carried from the Argentine has never cost the Government which imported it into this country more than a 1d. per lb., and meat imported from Australia and New Zealand has never cost the Government importing it into this country more than a 1¼d. per lb. That is the total carriage to the shipowner. He made no other charge. That was the cost of the charges made by him. The 4 lb. loaf has gone up from 5d. to 1s., and the cost of carriage is only a penny a lb. The cost of frozen meat coming to this country has been doubled and sometimes trebled, and the cost of carriage has never exceeded a 1¼d. a lb. from Australia and New Zealand and a 1d. from the Argentine, so that we can say that this class of the business community which has been aspersed can plead that it has made no excess profit out of the carriage of bread or meat.
How do these figures compare with the pre-war prices?
So far as wheat is concerned they are almost identical with the pre-war prices. There is a little extra charge which just meets extra cost but no more, and so far as profit is concerned there is exactly the same profit as was made before the War, and not a cent more. Let us, therefore, be quite clear. So far as ocean carriage is concerned, the rise in the cost of the loaf and of meat cannot be attributed to shipowners, however unpopular they may be, and however attractive attacks on public platforms directed against them may be. Take any other article of food that you like which is mainly consumed by our people, and where the cost of carriage is a considerable element in the total expenditure. There is scarcely one of them where the rise has been so considerable as in any degree to account for the enormous increase in the cost to the consumer. There are some articles, like tea, which occupy a comparatively small space according to the amount that is consumed in each household per week, in the case of which freights did go up. But let the House remember that we were dependent not only on our own shipping for the carriage of tea, but on foreign shipping, and to a certain extent on Japanese shipping, which up to this very moment is allowed to carry these commodities to this country without any check whatever on the freights charged by the owners.
Ocean carriage, I am afraid, does not account for the great rise in the cost of living. Then, was it the original grower? I say nothing about the grower at home, because he has been prominently before us during the last few weeks. What we do know is that the cost of wheat grown in this country ran up from 30s. odd to well over 90s., until Lord Devonport fixed the limit at 78s.; and any comparison between the carrier and the grower I am afraid is not to the credit of the grower of wheat by whom these charges have been made. Then, what about the grower abroad? He was entitled, so far as we were concerned, to charge whatever he could get. It is all very well for us to have strong feelings against the original producers of any of these commodities, but you cannot go with a pistol or a newspaper article in your hand to the farmer or the merchant in Chicago and expect that you are going to get your wheat a single cent a bushel less. You have got to pay the world's price whether you like it or not. It is true that the American farmer has done well out of the enormous rise in prices. So has the Canadian farmer, and, to a lesser degree, so has the Australian farmer, and so has the Argentine farmer. But the American farmer, above all others, is the man who has done best out of the enormous rise in the price of wheat.
7.0 P.M.
There is one very remarkable fact. When we artificially reduced the freights across the Atlantic by the operations of the Whitley Committee, it appeared to us—it is very difficult to be dogmatic on any of these economic questions—that as we reduced the freight the price which the original grower got went up. It is a most remarkable fact that ever since the Government fixed the carriage of wheat across the Atlantic at Blue Book rates the price of wheat has steadily gone up. As freights went down the loaf went up. That was due to the fact that the American grower, and possibly the merchant, succeeded in making far larger profits than ever they anticipated; undoubtedly they have made large profits out of the privations of Europe. We are now in the happy position of having the American Government in full sympathy with us in this and other matters, and I observe from newspaper reports that a fixed price has been made, and that wheat can be purchased in the United States at something over 2 dollars a bushel—$2.25 or $2.30—that is to say, about 10s. a bushel, or 80s. a quarter. If 80s. a quarter is the price at which wheat is purchased in America, with handling charges and cost of freight across the Atlantic, and handling charges on this side, we do not know exactly what the cost of the wheat is to be. I am now speaking of future purchases. What will they come to? I find it most difficult to make a calculation, for this reason, that it has been the subject of questions again and again in the House during the last few weeks. We know that shipowners have the through-route rate—
Will the right hon. Gentleman explain what he means by "through-route" rate?
The six weeks voyage is taken as the normal Atlantic voyage for a cargo steamer. The shipping company get about 8s. to 9s. a ton on the ton basis, and there are one or two little extra charges on top of that for the employment of this vessel for a six weeks voyage. But the difficulty is this. It has now become known that the bills of lading for this wheat are made not only for 8s. to 9s., but 10s. to 12s., and on that basis it works out at anything from 80s. to 95s. a ton. The company or the shipowner make 8s. or 9s., and where does the other money go? In view of this fact, the reducing of the 1s. loaf to 9d., under the control of the Government, seems to be something which is inconceivable. Where does the money go to? If it is said that it is only a bookkeeping entry, I am entitled to ask why this cannot be done in a frank way, so that the public may understand. The shipowner does not charge a single penny more for the carriage of the wheat, and if an assurance were given by the Government on this subject it would do a great deal to ease the public mind and to remove the feeling that there is still a good deal of profiteering, not by the shipowners, but by those who are controlling the ships—namely, the Government—and it is the duty of the representative of the Government to remove the impression of profiteering from the public mind.
Let me turn to what really matters far more than the mere question of who is getting undue profits out of the supply of food to this country. Are the supplies coming abundantly enough, are they coming from the right direction, and are you accumulating here more than is sufficient for immediate needs? The right hon. Member for Islington referred to the fact that large purchases of wheat were made in Australia last year. I know something about that purchase, and I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that we would have been extremely foolish if we had decided not to purchase wheat at that time merely because we had not then sufficient tonnage for its transport. It had been reported that there was very great shortage in the United States wheat crop, and the facts went to show that the exports of wheat from America would be low. We were bound, therefore, to make very large purchases in Australia for our own security in regard to our food supplies, and we did that on generous terms to the Australian Government and the Australian farmer, and both got something out of it. [An HON. MEMBER: "Oh!"] Certainly the Australian Government got something out of it, and no doubt they were entitled to do so. At all events, we paid very good terms, and if there had been nothing available from America we should have been bound to carry that Australian wheat to this country. Tonnage would have had to be found to bring it. I wish the Government had said much more emphatically during the last six months that this question of prices has been in the public mind, that they would always provide the necessary tonnage for the carriage of the Australian wheat to this country, and I think it would have been much better if they had made such an announcement. The estimates of the United States as to the wheat crop fortunately turned out to be too low, and it has been possible to buy an enormous amount of wheat in America, and to allow the Australian wheat to remain; at all events, in my judgment the right action has been taken by the Government during the last six weeks in bringing wheat from the nearest ports and not from the farthest.
Has the right hon. Gentleman any information as to why the ships of the Australian Commonwealth are not carrying the wheat to this country, but to France?
I cannot answer that question. I am not now in office; but do not let us overlook the fact that the food supply of France and Italy depends on our merchant tonnage just as much as does the food supply here. In sending our vessels to Italian and French ports conveying supplies to the people who are on our side in the War we have the right to ask that if there are large bill-of-lading rates, especially to the Italian ports, it should be made widely known that the high rates are not due to any attempt on the part of the shipowner, but are due to the Government who are directing and who give the figures to be put in. I feel sure that I have said nothing more than what expresses the general feeling of the House that the food supplies of our Allies are just as important as the food supplies of our own people. When you add up the whole of the cost, what do you find? The loaf costs 11d. or 1s., according to the district in which it is purchased; and it is perfectly evident, as the result of the arrangement of the Wheat Commission, that there is no profiteering out of the wheat. So far as I understand the Wheat Commission's arrangement with the millers, there is no possibility of profiteering by the millers. I also understand that the Food Controller and the Wheat Commission in conjunction are about to take steps to prevent any undue margin going to the baker. I do not know that there is any evidence of the baker having got anything more than he is entitled to in the past; at all events, there is no profiteering on this main article of food, and it is perfectly clear that if the loaf is reduced in price from 1s. to 9d., or 11d. to 9d., the difference will have to come out of the Exchequer. I offer no criticism if that be the decision, but it is entering upon a dangerous policy which may carry us a very long way, and may, indeed, only lead to the postponement of troubles which are feared. It seems to me that it would be far better if the consumer were released from some of the burden of indirect taxation upon him than to take 3d. off the loaf and still continue the indirect taxation which goes into the Exchequer. I have no doubt that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in making his new Budget arrangements, will bear that in mind, but I think I am only voicing the general feeling when I say that all those who take the trouble to investigate the feelings of the consumers in various parts of the country will find that they are irritated and angry from some unseen cause which they do not know very much about and find themselves totally unable to grasp.
There are other articles with regard to which we are in the position of having to ascertain the price at which the article is sold and the price at which it is raised. The announcement is made by the Food Controller that fat cattle are to be sold at a certain rate per hundredweight—I am told 74s., though, as a matter of fact, a great many farmers engaged in fattening cattle will be compelled to sell their cattle at a less rate than they gave for them. That may be the right thing to do, but it looks rather like going along the same road as taking 3d. out of the Exchequer to pay the difference between 9d. and 1s. for the loaf. Farmers cannot be ruined in this way. Some of the farmers find that not only are they going to make a loss on their cattle, but they will make no profit whatever, and they will undoubtedly make some claim upon the Exchequer for compensation. Undoubtedly the Government will feel that they cannot take a man's property, or that they cannot commandeer it at a price that would leave its owner suffering under a dead loss. That, therefore, would also have to come out of the Exchequer, and the Government are proceeding along the same road with regard to this as with regard to the loaf, and I feel somewhat apprehensive as to the extent to which it may go during the time the Government feels it necessary to fix food prices. The store cattle farmers in Ireland have had the time of their career, and never have they recorded such high prices for store cattle as during the last twelve months. The Food Controller will no doubt, address some of his Orders to the stockbreeders of Ireland.
He will have trouble if he does.
The hon. Gentleman, has stated exactly what I wished to elicit from him. Not only has the Food Controller issued this Order now as to the price of cattle, but in November and December the price will be still further reduced. Suppose he succeeded in getting it through, trouble or no trouble, I should say if the Food Controller did take drastic action with regard to commodities which are produced in England, he is equally entitled to take that action with regard to commodities produced in Ireland. What is likely to be the effect if he is successful? Obviously a good many of the farmers in Ireland who can change from one class of business to another will cease to keep their calves and will kill them off as quickly as possible and turn to dairy produce, which is now well organised under the co-operative system, and we shall find that we shall be short of store cattle at the end of next year. That is one of the results which may occur, and as a consequence we shall have more butter and more cheese. Then the Food Controller will probably have to fix the price of butter and cheese, and so you must proceed along this road of fixing prices with one article, and then with an alternative which is over-produced. It may be necessary to do these things, but I think we are entitled, if it is necessary to do them, to ask the Food Controller and the Parliamentary Secretary when he has come to closer grips with the work of his Department, to tell us what is to be the main line of policy along which they wish to proceed. I do not wish to press him for an answer now, though I think we are entitled to know what we are in for in the future.
Let me come to the case of the importers, because they also are subject to exactly the same apprehensions as the constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon). What about the importers of such commodities as beans? There was one episode as to beans which certainly did not redound to he credit of some business men in the city. I have been told on authority that there was a moment when gentlemen in Mincing Lane, who are mainly concerned in tea, turned their attention to beans. They had not been in the bean trade, but speculated in beans, just in the same way as some of us might speculate in mining shares. One or two instances of that kind are quite enough to inflame the public mind. On the whole the importation of beans into this country was done honestly, squarely and above board, while the fixing of the price of beans let some importers in for a dead loss. I am told that at one time, I think some four or five months ago, a cargo of beans which would have let the importer in for a loss of scores of pounds, had actually to be sent back to America in order that he might liquidate that loss. That kind of thing is really striking at the root of our requirements. We are not only interested in prices, but we are interested in supplies, and any attempt artificially to interfere with prices which restrict our supplies, is going to do far more harm than even the terribly high cost of living suffered by the poor. Bacon is in the same category as beans, and illustrates my point as to other commodities. There is no doubt that a great many of the best firms in the city which have not made un-due profits, and against whom no one can make a charge of dishonesty or greed, are feeling that it is not safe for them to embark in the importation of, for instance, tinned salmon, or tinned fruits They are not at all sure but that exactly the same steps may be taken as were taken with regard to beans and bacon. I know one great firm in the City, which, I believe, has no branches elsewhere, which does a very great business and is very highly respected. That firm have had deliberately to restrict their financial obligations in the future, because they cannot be sure, having got credit at the bank, but that they may find themselves landed owing to the artificial fixing of prices, and so situated that they would not have enough to have a reasonable profit to repay their bankers for the credit advanced and for their efforts.
I do suggest to the Government that they should bear in mind the nervousness, the justifiable nervousness, of importers when they do not know where they stand and cannot foretell what may be the action of the Food Ministry in the future, as to whether still more drastic action may be taken. We cannot afford to have any of these supplies, however varied they may be, or however non-essential they may seem to some, to be kept out of this country. We must have a varied diet here, brought from every quarter of the world. Tinned fruits and tinned salmon are just as necessary to many people as meat and bread, and if we were not able to vary our diet here it would have a deleterious effect on the health of the people. There may be one logical end to all these restrictions and all the nervousness of importers, and that may be for the Food Controller to undertake the importation of everything into this country. I know the extraordinary ability with which the hon. Member for Atterliffe (Mr. Anderson) from the very first has advocated that policy, but I think he will agree with me that the Food Controller has got his hands pretty full at the moment, and we had better see him through some of his present troubles before he embarks on an enormous variety, if you are to eliminate the importers altogether. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary would be very sorry to see his difficulties increased.
When all is said and done, I fear that as to the rise, the enormous rise in prices, the main part of it is not to be found amongst the criminals who are branded profiteers, is not to be found amongst the carriers on whom we have to depend for supplies, and is not altogether to be found amongst the producers. In foreign countries we have no control over them. It is due to the general rise in prices for which the War and the Governments that are concerned in the War are directly responsible. All Governments have been put in the same position. It would have been impossible to finance the War without a degree of inflation altogether unprecedented in the history of the world. It is easy to talk about inflation in terms which are well understood by bankers and those engaged in the foreign exchange, but I fear that the ordinary consumer will get cold comfort from being told that general inflation is the main cause of the increase in price of meat or bread or canned goods, and yet it is the main cause. If you increase, artificially increase, the amount of money and the purchasing power of merchants of all countries by the issue of paper money, by the artificial creation of credit, by the reduction of banking margins, if you do all these things and so increase the purchasing power that the supply of money appears to be far greater than it really is, when you have more purchasers in the market with greater apparent resources at their disposal, they bid against each other, prices are run up in the various world markets, and ultimately this very inflation, which eases the burden on the finance Ministers, falls on the consumer, and they have to pay. In Germany, I believe, they have taken a longer and profounder view of this question than we have in England. I observe, in looking through the figures as far as one can altogether ascertain them, that in the German Empire they have got through the last three years of war with an expenditure on a fairly even level.
dissented.
Yes; I think fairly equal compared with any increase of our own. If you take their loans, they have remained fairly steady.
This is really important, and I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will not object to my saying what I think I know about it. The Financial Secretary in June of last year gave the rate of expenditure as £100,000,000 per month, and it was officially given a few days ago at £150,000,000 per month. That is a rise of 50 per cent. during the same period.
My recollection was that the total war expenditure of Germany last year was in the region of something like £1,210,000,000. That, of course, we know is purely artificial, because they are really conducting no outside transactions. They are only paying for what they purchase within the borders of the Central Empires. But they have made a determined effort to prevent an undue rise of expenditure artificially. All those contrivances may or may not—
Germany has enormously increased the issue of paper money.
What the hon. Gentleman has overlooked is that they have only to make internal payments, and there is the whole distinction between ourselves and the Germans. Germany pays to the German, or to the Roumanian, or to the Austrian. That is internal inflation which you can check, and which does not bring the same Nemesis to those who indulge in it as is brought to those in an Empire which is called upon to make its purchases abroad. To begin with, prices in Germany are not world prices, they are Central European prices; whereas we ourselves in many commodities are bound to be governed by world prices. It may be that the Germans have been no more ingenious than we have been, and I need hardly say 1 cast no reflection on the Chancellor of the Exchequer nor am I suggesting that there is any. Inflation for us is one of the most hideous calamities that can come to an Empire. In Germany it does not bring anything like the same punishment. Their exchange will undoubtedly suffer after the War, and heaven only knows when it will recover! But we are going to suffer at present, and we are suffering at present.
There is one very serious danger which we may have to face, and that is if our purchases abroad continue to be so great that we cannot pay for them along the old line—that is, by our exports and dividends drawn from abroad, by services such as the employment of shipping and by the sale of securities—there must come a break in our exchange. Inflation and a break in the exchange are tied up together. That is the main point to which I wish to direct attention, and that is the point I have been approaching in making the comparison between Germany and this country. All those methods of supporting our foreign exchange have almost entirely disappeared. Exports have had to be cut down, cotton goods are being stored in Lancashire which would have found their way to the Far East, and metal goods could not be exported because there was not enough tonnage to take them away. Advances from abroad have been reduced, and the services of our shipping have had to be restricted until at the present time there are very few ships engaged in voyages between purely foreign countries. Invisible exports have gone as well as visible exports, and the general effect brings graver danger to the Exchequer than almost anything that has been done along the lines of general policy. We have been driven to it by the circumstances of the time, and we have to make the best of it. There is only one way of keeping your exchange in a fairly safe condition now without being dependent almost on the charity of our Allies, and that is by reducing the purchases which are made abroad. We cannot reduce the purchases of food. We must have an abundant food supply. It. would be very hard to reduce the purchases of munitions without crippling our Armies. But economy of some kind or another in some direction or another must be made, and unless it is exercised we shall find the effect of it will be to affect prices and that the troubles of the Food Controller will become insurmountable and the feelings of the public, now exasperated, will be doubly bitter as time goes on.
It is no cure to give higher wages. Higher wages are no compensation for this, higher wages on the whole are only exaggerating the very troubles from which we are suffering. There are some industries and some avocations where higher remuneration is impossible. There has been a good deal of exaggeration about higher remuneration amongst engineers. Those of us who took the trouble to investigate their position, discovered that the piece rate men had made enormously increased wages, whereas the time men had only made a comparatively small increase. Most of the skilled men are engaged in time work. These men have found the cost of living going up so rapidly that nothing but working overtime has enabled them to keep pace with the increased charges. High wages all round will give no relief. There can be no relief except by a cheaper scale of living, and that can only be attained by larger supplies being brought to this country. Abundance, after all, is the only cure for these things. After some months reflection, when I have had more time to think over economic problems than I had when I was in office, I repeat what I said: that a policy of abundance is the only way in which you can deal with these problems. There may be one way of causing an apparent abundance other than by a process of economy—that is the one taken by the War Savings Committee in the prevention of waste. The chairman of that Committee is Mr. Kinnersley, a friend of mine. Day and night practically for the last two years, he has been engaged in the work, and in doing it, in persuading our people that they must keep down their consumption of food as of other articles, he has performed as great a service to this country as any living man. Economy and abundance go hand-in-hand. Unless by some means or other the Government can also prevent a break in our exchange to which I return—although the subject is a technical one—I fear all the means we are now adopting to bring down the artificially high price of food will fail, and that the difficulties of the Food Controller and of the right hon. Gentleman opposite will only increase.
I should like to express to the House the sense of acknowledgment I feel for the very kindly references that have been made to those connected with the Food Department. The right hon. Gentleman and many other Members of the House have encouraged me in this work, and I would ask the House, in regarding any reply which may be given to the various speeches which have been made, to remember that there are some points of higher policy in connection with the duties of the Department into which I cannot very well enter deeply this afternoon, because my Noble Friend the Food Controller, in another place to-morrow, will fully review the position and intentions of the Department so far as they have gone. I think, however, I can claim for the Food Control Department that the Food Controller and his staff of expert Civil servants and administrators will go far to reach the public expectations which have been raised relating to the immense problems which have now to be faced, due to the high cost of living. The right hon. Gentleman asked what was the logical end of all these new departures—all these strange and difficult steps upon which we are entering. The logical end of these measures is peace. It is not merely the peace of which we think when we have in mind the termination of the War, but the peace at home in industrial England during the period of the War. These measures assail established interests. They disturb trade privileges. They upset the usual course of the conduct of commerce and business, and they evoke natural cries from those whose interests are disturbed, and who cannot see that it is reasonable or sensible for the Government to interfere with them. There are people in the country who go so far as to agree that any war measure may properly be taken if the Government will let them alone. Legislation during war-time cannot be conducted with that limitation. Equality of sacrifice involves the assumption that all of us must face some disturbance of our interests, and that we must be ready to incur any sacrifice, whatever that sacrifice may be. I would say to the House that just as the test came when we all united in appealing to the youth of England to face the military consequences involved in creating a great Army, that now the test has come for the civil population to bear its share of whatever burden these stern measures may involve.
The patriotism of the people is to be tested. I would say that that test must be applied with some limitation. There is an immense section of the people of our population who spend nearly the whole of their weekly wages on food and clothing. That section is entitled to protection. Measures, whatever they may involve in the way of departures from established standards of political economy, must be taken to secure the protection of that important section of the community, which, after all, is bearing the greatest share of any industrial burden which is falling upon the shoulders of the people as a consequence of the War. I may, I think, claim that I am not unconnected with the relation of the high cost of living to the recurring conditions of industrial unrest. I have served upon the Food Committee. Its Report has been referred to by a number of hon. Members during the Debate. That Committee sat for the latter half of last year. I have had the further opportunity within the past six weeks of working on the Industrial Unrest Commission, which has just concluded its labours. I heartily agree with the main body of the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Attercliffe, and in the conclusions which he has reached as to the close relationship between the high cost of living and the industrial unrest, which is now very deep-rooted indeed in this country.
There are two main reasons, I should say, for the control of food. The one is that there is a real world shortage in some of the primary articles of food. Undoubtedly there has been, and still is, some evidence of profiteering. The food shortage we may still bear, but the profiteering in the supply of food in wartime is, I submit to the House, a thing of which we all ought to be heartily ashamed; and, in so far as it can be detected, it should be prevented. The Food Department is a Department surrounded by an immense mass of detail. I make no pretence at having mastered that detail. But the problem which taxes everybody several times a day and goes into the homes of millions of people, and is varied week by week according to whether or not supplies are landed, and according to whether the volume of home produce is as great as was expected—that problem is beset with all these immeasurable conditions, and is a problem which any number of Members will find it a very great and difficult task indeed to solve. Those who suffer from the high cost of living are looking to the House and to the Food Department to make food cheaper. This House is subject, and ever will be, I suppose, to the current of public opinion. The plain man says that either he must have still higher wages or cheaper fare. The House, then, has to face one or other of these alternatives. Wages have in the main not increased in anything like the proportion of the increased cost of food. The right hon. Gentleman said that there are sections of the population who have received very little, and even some sections who have received no advance at all in wages. The only remedy which Parliament can apply to relieve that class is the remedy of cheaper food. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Islington, strangely I thought from that condition of robust Radicalism which he generally applies to political things, when he touched upon the question of food, used his old philosophy and seemed to suggest upon this question that we should leave things alone. Anything the Government has touched, he argued, had increased in price. That may well be so. But it is also true that had the Government not touched it the increase might well have been greater still. It is only after an article has reached a level of price which the public has regarded as intolerable that there has been any intervention whatever on the part of the Food Controller.
Sugar?
I rather think as far as possible that a Department of this kind should exercise every foresight, and take action to prevent increased prices. In the main, interference has not taken place until after some rise in price has occurred in some one particular article such as food. The right hon. Gentleman can depend upon it that if the Government leave these things alone, leave them to the private traders, and things then go wrong either in the sense of prices becoming more unbearable, or wrong in the direction of there being a very serious shortage bordering upon the condition of famine, the consequence would not fall upon the private trader; the blame would fall upon the Government. Naturally, the Government looks to interference for the purpose of safety, as well as for the purpose of maintaining a reasonable rate of price in regard to the supply of any article. Indeed, it was because up to a point that things were left with the private trader that intervention became of supreme necessity, and drastic action had to be taken both for the purpose of public control and for the purpose of definitely fixing the price for definite articles. I interrupted the right hon. Gentleman to correct his statement that the word "profiteering" did not appear in the summary given in the Report of the Unrest Commissioners by my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackfriars. I interrupted and said that if the word did not appear in the summary it did appear in the main Report, whereupon it was stated that this was another instance of the Government's concealment of facts. I find as a fact, on reference to the summary to which I alluded, that it was stated that
"Amongst the working classes the feeling exists that sections of the community are profiting by the increased prices."
There is really a very subtle distinction between the word "profiteering" and "profiting."
The Prime Minister has drawn a difference between "profiteering" and "profiting." "Profiteering" is vicious, but profiting is all right. I did not notice the illustration at the end of the Report. I was looking at the first part of the Clause.
The public will not be able to see any such fine distinction. But if the right hon. Gentleman cares to give me a few suggestions I can assure him they will receive every consideration. I would like to say in regard to one or two of them that specific instances of substance should be placed at our disposal if a demand is to be made for formal and official inquiry into charges of profiteering. My hon. Friend already has served so fully in this branch of the question that I am sure he will agree that it is a waste of labour to deal with generalities, and that we must have definite and particular instances. I can assure him that if these instances can be given and there is any formidable appeal for investigation, representations for such investigation will be properly met. I think it may be claimed for the Department that his charge of masterly inactivity is scarcely justifiable. The Department has had to be built up; every day new duties have been added; there has been an immense shortage of labour of the right kind, of the efficient and trained labour required for the carrying on the business of the Department; and on the one hand you have complaints that the Department is inactive, is really not using its opportunities, and on the other hand you have the answer that the Department is unnecessarily interfering with conditions which if left alone would very soon right themselves. I can assure my hon. Friend, however, that in one respect his wishes will be fully met. He has suggested that the Food Controller should avail himself of the capacity and knowledge of the men associated with the co-operative movement, of women who are deeply interested in this food problem, and of men attached to Labour organisations who have a very immediate class and family interest in this social problem.
It is the intention, not an intention to which my Noble Friend (Lord Rhondda) was driven, but an intention which I think he naturally expresses, that in such a matter as this the services of all experienced, able, and serviceable men and women should be fully used in connection with the great work of local food administration which is to be developed. We shall have to place upon the various authorities, upon the county councils down to the small urban and rural bodies, their share of responsibility for carrying through, through the administrative channels, whatever may be the national decisions of the Food Department, and the local body must call before it all those persons of experience who have their own immediate interests to watch and the interests of the large constituencies which they represent.
A question has been asked as to how far the Department has dealt with the problem of overseas supplies, and how far it has taken measures to secure that no shortage in the future shall occur. The paramount duty of a Food Controller is to economise food supplies, and the earliest attention of the Food Controller was directed to increasing overseas supplies. He demanded, and he successfully carried out, the acquirement of stocks of wheat, and the Ministry has steadily pressed the prior claims of food supplies upon the diminishing tonnage, and has secured the acceptance of a minimum monthly quota as a first charge upon British shipping. We have been asked as to what effect the actions of the Army, in the exercise of their power of purchase for Army purposes, has had upon the prices of food for the civilian population. It is recognised that purchases for the Army may affect, and as a fact do affect, supplies and prices for civilians, and that it is necessary, accordingly, that there should be co-operation between these Departments. The actions of the Food Controller's Department, therefore, and of the purchasing Departments for the Army are now the subject of consultation. It is agreed thoroughly that it is highly undesirable that any steps should be taken by one Department of the State detrimental to another Department of the State, and that there ought not to be any competition in these matters of purchases as between the needs of the soldier and the needs, say, of the munition worker of this country.
The Government have this afternoon in various speeches, particularly that of the right hon. Gentleman, been rather strongly assailed for their intention with regard to reducing the price of the loaf from, say, 1s. to 9d., and we are asked as to how it is possible in the carrying out of our intentions to effect the object that we have in view. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that whatever might be said as to the way in which this end is to be attained, that if the end itself is attained that Will go far to ease the situation in the case of many thousands of very poor homes in this country. In other Departments of State activity the country has agreed, if not unanimously at any rate with some sense of submission, to set aside many things which in time of peace the country would not listen to at all. We propose that our end should be attained by these means: that all the flour mills of any importance shall be, as many of them have already been, taken over by the Government, and shall be worked for the Government; and from the flour mills flour will be sold to the bakers at a uniform price calculated to correspond with the price of 9d. for the quartern loaf. Bakers obtaining flour at this price will be expected to sell the loaf across the counter for a maximum of 9d., though they will be allowed to make additional charges for delivery, in cases where there is delivery, and for giving credit. Bakers will be allowed to charge more for cash counter sales only if they can prove to the satisfaction of the Ministry, or to the satisfaction of the local authority, that they have specially high working costs. In this way the 9d. loaf, I think I may say, will be guaranteed. The difference between the price which the Government has to pay for imported wheat, or which the miller will have to pay the farmer for British wheat, and the amount realised by the mills from the bakers for flour at the uniform price will be met by a subsidy from the Exchequer. The amount of the subsidy cannot be definitely estimated since the price which would have to be paid for imported wheat is still uncertain. In this connection the right hon. Gentleman alluded to certain statements, which I conclude he has seen in the Press to-day, with regard to the action of the American Government on what the price of American wheat may be. That illustrates the difficulty of a Government at this end of the world trying to do exactly what it wants. World supplies and world trade do, of course, to a very great extent determine what it is possible for this Government to do in respect to a price which it may desire to fix. The fact is that those who are not under our control in other parts of the world will have the highest price which they can exact from the different competitors who require the food which they provide, and we cannot afford to risk any serious loss of any substantial articles of British food by refusing to pay whatever price may be necessary in order to secure it. The question of how we shall cheapen the article when it is secured is a matter, therefore, of ways and means, and the Government's intention is to take the short cut of establishing a price by law, reducing the price, therefore, to the poor and making up the difference from the Exchequer of the country.
May I ask my hon. Friend whether he will say if the arrangements that are being made to reduce the cost of the loaf, which he has made quite clear, will equally apply to flour which is distributed? He and I know districts where the baker is not used, and where the baking is done at home. I presume flour will be dealt with on the same basis.
Will my hon. Friend say whether there is anything in his scheme limiting this proposal to the poor or is it to apply to all classes?
Certainly all classes will take the benefit of it, with this difference, that it may be—I do not say it will be—that the richer people who will derive some benefit from the cheaper loaf may be called upon to yield that benefit by other steps that may be taken, by taxing the rich of the country. That is one other way of giving the special advantage to the poor of the country. I cannot at the moment meet the direct question which the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Runciman) has put, but it is a point of which I shall take a note and see that a reply on the matter is provided.
I would rather like to press the point, if my hon. Friend could let us have an announcement to-morrow when the Food Controller makes his statement. It would, of course, give information of the greatest value to Yorkshire, and to Northumberland and Durham.
It is, of course, a point on which an answer should be given, because it is a point of real substance. The Department has been criticised during to-day, and on previous occasions, with regard to what has taken place in the supplementary supplies of sugar that were announced by the Department as being available, on application being made, for the purpose of jam making. The answer to many critics on this point, briefly, is this: Every person who lodged with his grocer by the 11th of June an application form, properly filled up, has already got, or will get, his due proportion, which in the case of soft fruit amounts to 75 per cent. Eleven thousand five hundred tons have already been allocated for the domestic preservation of fruit. Of this weight 7,000 tons have been distributed for soft fruit, and 4,500 tons will be distributed for stone fruit. A great number of applications came too late. Many applications came under a misapprehension, because this supplementary supply of sugar was to be placed at the disposal only of the persons who had grown their own fruit, and not for others who might be able to purchase considerable quantities for preserving purposes. Many of these applications came unstamped and with unaddressed envelopes, which were not mere technicalities. It was impossible with such a volunteer staff as the Department has at its disposal to address some 750,000 envelopes. Other applications have been turned down, as it was discovered that the applicants grew no fruit of their own. There have, no doubt, been a certain number of what may be called inevitable mishaps which, in the circumstances, I think the House will agree ought to be excused.
Do not these amount to thousands of applications completed in time, and meeting all your requirements and conditions? Have not thousands been left out?
8.0 P.M.
If it he that these mishaps number thousands, those concerned have been very charitable to me, because I have only received twenty-five or thirty letters, so far as I know, and it is likely that a large number of these would come direct in view of the statements made in the public Press. The question of tea was referred to at length by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Islington (Mr. Lough), and on that matter I will make a brief statement as to what the Department has done. We cannot at this stage be expected to enter into a discussion as to what was done by the Food Control Department some months ago. Two things stand out in regard to the action of the Department on this question of tea. Schemes for securing tea at reasonable prices were drawn up by the late Food Controller in consultation with the trade, and these schemes are being worked experimentally. The scheme at present in force provides for a certain amount of tea at 2s. 4d., and two other grades of tea at higher prices. A scheme for taking full control of the supply of tea in every part of the country is being considered by the Department in consultation with representatives of the trade concerned, and this scheme will provide for securing the benefit of reduced prices to the consumer. At each stage the Department has sought to avail itself of the business ability and capacity to which the right hon. Gentleman referred.
The question directed to us was, Why the 1st September has been fixed as the date when the meat prices are to come into operation? It is asked, "Why this delay; why not immediately fix prices in order to give the public the benefit of your intentions?" The machinery for regulating prices all over the country is necessarily very expensive and could not be established immediately. Large numbers of farmers have bought store cattle at prices which are excessive, having regard to the prices proposed for meat, and it is desirable to give them some opportunity of getting rid of their more expensive purchases before the new prices come into operation. At the same time the Food Controller cannot agree that any person who has paid an excessive price in the past is entitled to evade a loss when more reasonable prices are established later. All these intentions on the part of the Department require vast machinery. You cannot by merely issuing a public notice, an Order, or a statement to the Press, regard these things as accomplished. There are people who some months ago used to declare that if the Government on this, that, or the other question, would only say that every man should do it, every man would do it. We know better by this time. We know you must not only tell people they must do it, you must watch them do it; you must make them do it. Although there has been great patience displayed by sections of the community who have suffered, even greater patience must still be exercised in order that the necessary machinery may be established to give full effect to the intentions of the Food Department.
The question of shipping has been referred to, and I dare say will be alluded to again. We are asked pointedly what is the relation of the present shipping rates to the high cost of food. The shipping rates have no important bearing on the cost of the principal articles of food where supplies are controlled, in particular cereals, wheat and sugar, because in these cases the food is brought at what are termed Blue Book, or requisitioned,, rates. In every case it is not desirable to allow the food to come at requisitioned rates, because if the price at which the importer sells is not controlled that will probably mean that the importer, and not the consumer, gets the advantage of the shipping rates. Even in such cases the freight paid to the shipowner is often only at Blue Book rates—that is to say, the Minister of Shipping requisition the ships, pays the shipowner, at Blue Book rates, but charges the importer of the uncontrolled food the market rate.
Does that mean that the Minister of Shipping is getting a profit out of the carriage of these commodities?
That is a reasonable conclusion, but it does not mean that the Shipping Controller or his Department gets any profit. So far as there is a profit it is a profit which finds its way to the revenue of the country.
I am quite sure my hon. Friend would not suggest that I said it goes to the Shipping Controller, but it is important we should know whether any charge is made on the subject, and it looks rather like a profit being made by the Shipping Controller, for which there is no legal sanction.
That is a definite question on a point of fact to which I would like a later opportunity of replying. Just a brief allusion to the question of profiteering, and how far attempts are being made by the Department to prevent it. When the Food Controller was appointed the imports of sugar and wheat were under Government control. The prices of both were regulated by that control, and the sugar used in chocolates and sweets was drastically reduced. For various reasons in the case of home-grown wheat the price began to rise above that of the imported wheat, and the Food Controller at once fixed the maximum prices in this article and also in the case of oats and barley. All speculation in grain has been stopped, and merchants and dealers work only on a fixed commission. Brokers have been to a large extent put out of their business, as the greater part of the trade does not pass through their hands, and no parcels can in any case bear more than one brokerage. I rather think that it may be to the advantage of the public that the fullest publicity should be given by the Government to what actually has been done on this question and its effect in checking any temptation there might be on the part of those who may, as a cynic once said, be able to resist anything but temptation, and to give the decision of the Government, and their opinion, as to how far steps have been taken to eliminate the profiteer and make it impossible for prices to be unfairly raised.
Profiteering is a word which is applied indiscriminately to various transactions. In its worse form it applies to the speculator who buys and sells a commodity in which he has no trade interest. This the Department is trying its best to eliminate, and in a good many articles it is impossible for the speculator to do business. In all the wholesale markets in which it is possible systematically to deal with this question; in relation to grain, provisions, tea, coffee, dried fruits, live animals, and meat, the most drastic steps have been taken. The control, it is admitted, is not in all cases complete, but where it is still incomplete it will very shortly be tightened up so far as the Department can do so. I would ask the House then, to give to the Food Controller and his staff its patience and also its confidence in dealing with these problems, the difficulties of which, I think, all Members of the House will understand. Their bearing upon the War is of supreme importance. The criticisms in the speeches this afternoon have been extremely helpful and cast in terms to which there cannot be the slightest objection. On its further assistance the Department may expect that the staff shall be as adequate as the requirements demand, that no mercy shall be shown to those who are seeking to evade the decisions of the Department; that punishment, if necessary, must be imposed to make those do right who are not willing to do right in time of war. The soldier is severely punished for a trifling lack of duty. Those who have to provide the food of the soldier, or of the workers, should not be allowed any loophole of escape. I agree, and I know, that it would be difficult to close up all these loopholes, but in time of war any man who is found taking advantage of his country and seeking to fill his pockets, particularly at the expense of the poor, should not be allowed to continue to do so, and the extremest punishment might well be visited upon him for a traitorous, or at least a highly unpatriotic act, which no one can excuse. Our food problem is made increasingly difficult, as we know, by the operations of the German submarine. Any man who makes the problem of the Food Department more difficult is assisting the designs of the German submarines, and the Department have therefore recognised its close relationship to all the steps which the nation can take towards speedily and victoriously winning the War, and welcomes the tone of the speeches delivered by hon. Members this afternoon, which I shall have the greatest pleasure in reporting to my hon. and Noble Friend, whose fuller statement to-morrow, in another place, I would ask hon. Members to look to, because it does contain some of the points of the highest importance on which I have not been able to touch.
I desire to be allowed very heartily to congratulate the hon. Member upon the speech which he has just delivered. It shows, if I may be allowed to say so, discrimination on the part of the Prime Minister in introducing to his Government a Gentleman with such a well-balanced and level mind. We must all have been very much impressed by the speeches which have been delivered today, not only by the Member who represents the Ministry, but also by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dewsbury and others, and we must feel that the very high prices of the necessaries of life are causing very serious unrest and discontent, making it extremely difficult for the poorer classes to obtain the necessaries of life, and, indeed, embarrassing very large numbers of people who have limited incomes. In short, I feel, and I think we must all feel, that any steps that are necessary on the part of the Government which are just to the producer, and not calculated to reduce production demand the consideration of every patriotic man. We feel that it is most important that means should be taken to secure an increased supply of food, and I agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Runciman) when he said that, though it was important to criticise profiteering where it might occur, he endorsed the opinion expressed by the late Chancellor of the Excequer that the charge of profiteering could not be generally maintained. With the indulgence of the House, I would like to read the right hon. Gentleman's words, because I quite agree that if there is profiteering it ought to be put down. But any false charges of profiteering are reprehensible, and ought to be refuted. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Monmouth (Mr. McKenna) used these words:
The best way to deal with the scarcity and the high prices of food is to do all we can to increase the food supply. Different reasons have been given as to the cause of the high prices of food. I am bound to say that this House is in no small degree responsible for the present high prices of food, in having neglected for very many years past the great industry of agriculture. Instead of encouraging that industry to increase the food supply, the reverse has been the case; and to prove that I would point to the action of the House with reference to the industry of agriculture during the depression of the 'eighties and 'nineties. It was thought that if you could get cheap food from abroad, it did not matter what occurred to the industry producing food at home. I venture to say that heresy is bearing fruit to-day, and causing the consumer in this country to pay a higher price than what he would have had to pay if the food capabilities of our own land had been duly developed. On that point I notice hard things have been said the last two or three days with reference to the farmers' attitude on his question. It was the courage shown by farmers in those days, when prices for agricultural produce in many cases were less than half the cost of producing it, and the cooperation of the landlord, his wisdom and generosity in giving back a percentage of the rent, the farmers' perseverance and working fourteen and sixteen hours a day, and the labourers' loyal support of the farmer in the crisis, that enabled the agricultural industry to survive that depression. But for that co-operation of the landlord, the farmer and the labourer, we should have had a much smaller production of food supplies from our own country than is at present the case. I submit that the main question for this House is to see that in the future we shall not be so dependent upon foreign food supplies as we have been in the past, but, recognising the importance of developing to its utmost capacity our own land, we may prove, if ever a crisis such as this should occur again, more self-supporting, and thereby avoid the sending of so much capital beyond the seas to buy necessaries which we can produce ourselves, and so augment the welfare of the Commonwealth.
On that point I would say that there is a great deal that can be done. This House is passing the Corn Production Bill. My belief is that it will tend very much to increase the food supply of the country. But there are other ways in which, I think, the Minister ought to feel responsibility to assist agriculture. One is with reference to the difficulty of getting manure at anything like a reasonable price. Another is the high cost of feeding stuffs. Cakes, which prior to the War were bought at 9 guineas a ton, are now £22 10s., and feeding stuffs of all kinds have increased very often 100 per cent. I do suggest that if you want cheaper meat, and if you want cheaper and more abundant milk, you can help the farmer producing them by seeing that he has feeding stuffs and manures at a fair price to carry on his industry. With reference to the price of milk, I quite agree that it is a serious problem, and I would suggest to the Minister whether it is quite wise to encourage at the present moment, as has been done by the Board of Agriculture, the expansion of cheese-making in this country, and thereby using up milk which is absolutely necessary for the welfare of the children. We can import cheese, but we cannot import milk, and, seeing the danger of a scarcity of milk, it is worth while considering whether we had not better suspend cheese-making during the period of the War. The hon. Member for Bury (Sir G. Toulmin) spoke of the price of potatoes, and said something rather strong about the income from potatoes of a certain farmer in the North of England, and animadverted on high prices. Everybody who has a practical knowledge of this subject knows that the high price of potatoes has been caused by the fact that more than half of them were destroyed by disease, and hence there was a great scarcity and consequently high prices followed. The farmer in these circumstances offered his potatoes for sale, and they made a high price on account of the scarcity. The hon. Member for Bury said, "Here was this man getting this high price for his potatoes and paying no Income Tax." He was entirely wrong, for the farmer everywhere to-day is paying on a basis three times greater than was the case before the War. Therefore, the hon. Member for Bury was not justified in making that accusation.
The point I want to criticise is this: the real way to cure high prices is to increase production. The farmer is prepared to do his best, and the Government ought to support him. Surely the lesson of neglect of agriculture by this House in years gone by ought to convince every hon. Member that it is our duty as patriots to avoid any such calamity in the future. I do not want to go back to old controversies, but it is well known that in the past nothing was practically done for agriculture in this country, whereas in Germany they have been developing agriculture, with the result that although they cannot import much food, they are really holding on in this War in a perfectly marvellous way, because in the past they have developed their agriculture and have become self-supporting. Of course, I do not want to copy much from Germany, but I am convinced that the best way of supplying an abundance of food is to develop our own industry and give fair treatment to all engaged therein, both landlord, tenant, and labourer, and the Government can do that by supplying manures and foodstuffs at a reasonable price. If they do that I am sure we shall be able to do something to remedy the deplorably high price of food. This House is largely responsible for this state of things by neglecting agriculture in the past.
With reference to the proposed maximum price of meat, I think that ought to have been done at Christmas before the stores were bought in. I wrote to the President of the Board of Agriculture at the time, and I said that if you are going to put a maximum price on meat you ought to do it now, so that all will be able to understand their prospects for the future. But it was not done. I recognise the policy of the Food Controller in putting the maximum price on to the 1st of September in order that the high-priced stores may be disposed of. Many of those beasts will have to be sold at a price less than they cost to store, and that is rather serious, and it will be a consideration for the Food Controller, especially with reference to the proposal to pay 60s. per cwt. for meat in January. I submit that is a great mistake. It is £3 14s. in September, and that means a loss, but it is to be £3 in January. To keep an animal until January means the use of high costing, food, and surely it is not too late to say that the price for January ought to be at a higher level than 60s. I think the effect will be that you will find such a scarcity of meat that it will cause great unrest. The £3 for January will cause a scarcity more serious than the high price. I feel the importance of the question we are debating, and what I ask is that any steps which are going to be taken shall be just to the producer, and not likely to reduce production.
With reference to the milk supply, when the late Food Controller came into office he issued an order limiting the excess price of milk to a certain date in November. That was the summer price, with the result that the milk for the winter could not be produced at that price, and there was a giving up of milking cows, because they did not pay the farmer at that limit. We have not yet fully recovered from the mistake then made which destroyed confidence in cow keepers. Knowing the high prices they had to pay for the food, the difficulty of getting the milk and the threat of another limit, the price went up to an unremunerative degree, but it is the giving up of milking cows that is embarrassing the milk supply at the present moment. I hope the Food Controller will avoid any such risks in the future, because that policy did harm both to the consumer and the producer. In dealing with the meat supply we shall be better able to judge of the price later, but all I ask is that such steps as are deemed to be necessary in the interests of providing food for the people shall be taken in such a manner that will not be unjust to the producer and will not diminish production. Then I think the farmer will do his part in supplying the requirements of the country. Let the Government do their part, and remember that, after all, agriculture is the greatest industry in the country upon which the success of all other industries more or less depend. All we ask is fair treatment at the hands of the Government, and then we shall be able to do our part in that great object that we all have in view, namely, the winning of the War. We all recognise that the provision of food is as important as being at the front. It is less dangerous, of course, and does not require quite so much courage, but it is part of the great object we have in view, and all we ask is that, in establishing conditions between the producers and the consumers, justice all round will be done.
Before I address myself to the points I wish to raise in connection with our Air Service, I should like to say one or two words in reference to the debate on food prices which is now concluding. I listened with considerable interest to the remarks made by the repre- sentative of labour speaking from the Front Bench. The hon. Member told us of certain precautions which were going to be taken to protect the food of the people, and he spoke of the principles which are to govern the policy of those responsible for providing the people with food. I think if my hon. Friend had given this House an undertaking, for example, that no foodstuffs should change hands from the time they leave the port until the time they arrive at their destination, that would be giving a definite precaution. I do not think my hon. Friend behind me (Sir John Spear) is very consistent in the arguments he has put forward. In the first instance he said the reason we were suffering from high prices was simply and solely because the farmer had not had a chance, and therefore we were short in production. Perhaps, as a farmer, he may speak feelingly, but in the next breath he tells us that there is a glut of meat on the market. Yet there are astonishingly high prices. Surely if his argument that if there is a glut of anything the prices are low holds good, the price of meat to-day should be low. It is not so, and we have to go a little further than the mere question of production versus demand to arrive at the reason why prices are high. I do not wish to dwell upon this subject, although I feel very keenly about it Prices are high owing to our methods of handling the abnormal demands that have been made for food. We have permitted private gambling to come between the producer and the consumer. Private gambling may be a very sound policy in time of peace, when every man is looking after himself and it is assumed that the devil will take the hindmost, but private gambling in time of war, when every man should cease looking after himself and put the interests of his country even before himself, is another matter. Although my hon. Friend suggested that strong steps were going to be taken with the gambler in the people's food, I would have liked him to have told us what steps had already been taken.
The present unrest in this country, which is a very serious matter, is more to be attributed to the prices that the working classes have to pay for the mere necessities of life than to any other cause whatsoever. Therefore, Members of this House are only fulfilling a public duty if they ask the Government to name those men who are responsible for the more or less critical position of labour to-day. What this House wants to know, or rather what I wish this House would insist upon knowing, is who are the men by name and by address—who are they and where are they—who have exploited the food of the working man for the last two years. There have been fabulous fortunes piled up by people who have no possible interest in either the production or the distribution of food. When we hear that a cargo of beans which leaves the other side of the world changes hands five times in its passage to England, and when we hear that the public have to pay five times as much, or 500 per cent. more, for some particular necessity of life, simply because men have been permitted to gamble in those cargoes between the port of departure and the port of arrival, is it to be marvelled at that men who are only just making two ends meet, to put it no more forcibly, should be outraged that the Government takes no action against the men responsible? The prevailing fallacy in this House about the working classes is that their wages have been doubled, and that therefore all should be well. So far as my memory serves me, the wages of a working man, as to about 90 per cent., are absorbed in the sheer necessities of life. In the old days when a working man picked up his £2 per week, by the time he had paid for the food for his wife and children and had spent, as he was perfectly entitled to spend, a fair proportion of the balance upon tobacco and beer and other things which are equally essential to life, he found himself with 2s. or 3s. Perhaps it was less; perhaps it was 1s. That shows that about 95 per cent. of his earnings each week went in obtaining the pure necessities of life. If we doubled his wages and we doubled the price of food, his position would be the same, but we double his wages and we treble the price of many of the essentials of life, and he is out on the deal. There is no margin for him. In many cases there is no margin between the wages the working classes are earning and the prices of food.
If he were satisfied that the prices he was paying for his food were absolutely necessary, I am perfectly confident that the working man, knowing him as I do, would not grumble. He might grouse, but it is an Englishman's privilege to grouse. The working man feels that there is a class, called profiteers, who are purely and simply gambling and amassing vast fortunes. They are glambling quite outside the grocery and the meat business of this country, and are artificially forcing up the prices of food far above any figures that need have been reached. Then, if I may point it out with all the delicacy that I can, or of which I am capable, there is a feeling in the country that there are men sitting in this House, both as private Members and as members of this Government, who are responsible for making the laws which should either expose and condemn the profiteers or render it impossible for them to continue their work who are themselves profiting by the high price of food. Much as I regret it, I must admit that there is a justification for this feeling among the people. It is a regrettable fact that members of the Government and Members of this House are profiteers and are profiteering. Why, as I had occasion to point out to the Leader of this House quite recently, his shareholdings, on his own admission, are such as pay him, owing to the War, dividends which would never have been deemed possible in the days of peace. We know quite well that sitting in this House are big shareholders in large grocery concerns, multiple stores, and all the various, means for the distribution of food, who are becoming immensely wealthy through the continuation of this War.
And the shipowners.
There are also the shipowners, but there seems to have been a particular attack directed against shipowners. I should like the House to understand that, so far as I am concerned, I have no particular bias against shipowners or anyone else, but I have an intense feeling against those men who make laws or who support laws for their own personal benefit and who sit in this House and vote public money into their own pockets. When this War first broke out that was impossible. I should like to point out to the House that it stands self-accused, because, if that were not the case, why was the Courts Emergency Bill introduced at all? Why did they have to introduce into this House a special measure to give relief to Members of this House who were holding contracts with the Government or voting public money into their own pockets? As I read Clause 4 of the Courts Emergency Bill it is the most damnable accusation against the Members of this House that could possibly be made. I appeal to the Government to give that their serious consideration and to remember that the heart of the people of this country is perfectly sound and was never more sound than it is to-day, but that there is a feeling that they are being exploited, and that if members of the Government are not aiding and abetting this condition of affairs they are at least, shall we say, conscientious objectors to altering it. The feeling of the country is possibly more bitter and acute than the Government, living in an atmosphere created by occupying that Front Bench, may be aware of. I would ask them to give the people of this country a square deal, and to say, "We admit that there has been profiteering, but these men shall be punished, and in proof thereof we publish the names of those men we can trace"—surely there is no difficulty in tracing those men who have been responsible for these gambles—"and we are going to proceed against them under the Defence of the Realm Act for exploiting the people of this country in a moment of great national stress and anxiety." That is all I have to say in regard to the exploiting of the people by politicians and others.
Now I should like to address myself as briefly as possible to the question of our Air Services. The last time this question was discussed in this House we were sitting in Secret Session. I know quite well that it is impossible for me to refer to what occurred at that time, except so far as it has been reported by the Prime Minister's instructions. The Prime Minister on that occasion gave us certain figures. Unfortunately, he gave them to us in Secret Session, and I did not have the opportunity of disputing them; but I have made a note of those figures, and I say here and now that within six months, when the time arrives that those figures and that programme should have reached fruition, we shall find that the Prime Minister's optimistic statement in this House has no foundation in fact. We shall find that the position in this country will never alter or undergo an improvement until the roots which are responsible for the present pernicious plant have been torn up and new seeds planted for a new crop. We are told in this House that every factory capable of building aeroplanes is working at high pressure. I have repeatedly put questions to members of the Government asking whether everything is being done to produce aeroplanes and the right type of aeroplanes in the greatest numbers. I am told that is being done. I do not propose to mention the names of any firms in this House, but, so far as production is concerned, let us look at these facts: We have a good many firms producing in this country. I put a question to the Minister of Munitions the other day, asking him if he would tell me whether it was a fact that certain firms were closing down for a considerable period in the holidays. He told me that was not the fact. I shall be very pleased to supply the names of these firms privately to the Minister on the Front Bench afterwards. I find that one firm has put up a notice in their works—it is a very large firm, quite close to London—saying: type for the purpose of bomb-dropping should be standardised—our enemies have standardised a type—and that these machines should be built to the exclusion of various types which are at present being built in odd numbers. There are only three functions for an aeroplane. I have tried to convince the House on this subject on many previous occasions. There is only an excuse for standardising three types of machines—first, the fighting machine, which should be re-standardised every month, which is quite simple; secondly, the observing machine, which should be standardised every three months; and, thirdly, and above all, there is the bomb-dropper, which could be standardised to-day, and would then hold good for at least six, if not twelve, months, and which could therefore be turned out in large quantities. I have pointed out to the Front Bench that there is no real defence against aeroplane attacks by them. I appreciate quite well, when my right hon. Friend answers me that the enemy has left this country after having bombed it and not lost a machine, that that reflects in no way on the courage or the ability of the airmen who are sent up to meet them, but it reflects to a very great extent on the administration for providing them with machines, after three years of war, which are utterly incapable of fighting successfully the machines they are called upon to encounter. Surely the true defensive is the offensive. If we had a fleet of aeroplanes which was capable, as is quite possible, of continuous raids on Germany and Austria we should be giving our enemy plenty to do in defending his own country and occupying his airmen and his aeroplanes in a manner which would do a great deal more to bring this War to a successful conclusion than the protecting of our towns from the raids of his machines.
9.0 P.M.
This is no new argument that I am suggesting now. Where the Government is really to blame is that these things have been put forward to them again and again, and each time they are put forward they consult with the same men who are responsible for the muddle of the past. There are at the Hotel Cecil now those very same men who are responsible for the loss of hundreds of our best pilots through sending them up in improper machines. The same men are responsible to-day. There have been no material changes. Aeroplanes raid this country. There is no defence. The same men responsible. Public outcry. Aeroplanes come back again. No defence. Public outcry. The same men responsible. I am not curious but I should like to know how many people and how much destruction it is necessary for an enemy airman to do before the War Cabinet arrives at the conclusion that it is necessary to make a clean sweep of the present Air Board. The methods of the Air Board would almost be humorous were they not so pathetic. We have sitting at the Air Board a political, a naval, and a military element advising each other on all these points and being called in by the Cabinet. I remember reading, after the last big raid on London, that directly it concluded, when the enemy had passed over what was the proudest city in the world in battle formation unchallenged, the Prime Minister called in the experts to listen to their deliberations. If I had been responsible for the administration, I should have told those experts just exactly what I thought, and it would not be to these men that England would be looking to-day for protection. The scandal of this War, so far as I see it, is that no blunder is too great for a politician or for the high command. It seems to me that the higher you are in command, the greater is your military, naval, or political state, the greater the blunders which are permitted. I saw the other day that a young fellow about seventeen years of age was sentenced to ten years' hard labour for dozing at his post in Mesopotamia. He was only a private. There are high officials who sleep and we permit that.
The public are getting sick of it. They are getting sick of the administration of the Air Department. These errors were pointed out to the Government eighteen months ago at the time of the Air Inquiry. They know quite well the position to-day is as bad as it was then. They appoint a Committee. That does not suit. They appoint a Board, and the whole thing is one farce after another, and behind the scenes, where they cannot be seen by the public, sit the same men with their tongues in their cheeks, laughing, as one of the members of the Air Board at least has just laughed on the Front Bench at the tragedies which we see in the streets of London. The people of this country are demanding, reasonably, the defence at least of this City. It is utter nonsense to say that London is not a military objective for the enemy. The information of the Germans is better than ours. So much of the affairs in our conduct of this War is not kept from them as it is even from us. They know quite as well as we do, and better than most Members of this House, the exact position of all our munition and high explosive factories. They know what floats down the Thames in barges day by day, and they know what would happen if they got a lucky hit on any of the objectives which they know so well. It is suggested that it is not a legitimate act of war to send aeroplanes over London to endeavour to destroy and to demoralise what is the very heart, the very pulse, the very life-blood of the enemy they are fighting. The Germans know quite well that the Allied cause gets its impulse from this City, and that the destruction or the demoralisation of this City or of any of the munitions works would do more to accomplish the end they have in view than anything else they could attempt. We are told that it is of no military significance, and that the Germans are blackguards and scoundrels to raid this City. That is only the weak defence of the politician. If our system had permitted us to raid German cities we should be doing it to-day.
I do not wish to waste the time of the House in expressing the regret which I feel so deeply as to our maladministration in the past, but I appeal to hon. Members to bring pressure to bear on the Government to see that the men who are responsible for the criminal folly of yesterday have not got the reins and the control to commit even greater blunders tomorrow. We have pointed out again and again that the German programme in the air is ever increasing. I would ask the Government to appreciate that it is the duty of statesmen not just to patch and fuddle to meet the immediate act of the enemy, and when he sends over ten aeroplanes by day to try to take hurried and panic measures to meet ten aeroplanes to-morrow. We want some system of warning and defence which can deal with a hundred or a thousand aeroplanes which may be sent in the next few months. The system of warning which has been given to London is an absolute burlesque. After three years of war, and after two years and eleven months of raiding this country, the most efficient system that the greatest city in the world can devise for affording protection—I will not say protection—is by driving its gallant citizens into cellars, because it has utterly failed to protect them, and by degrading one of the smartest forces in the world, and sending the members of that force round the streets with porous plasters on their chests telling the people to take cover. When they have got them under cover, as I pointed out to the Home Secretary the other day, how are the people going to see or hear their whiz-bang from the bowels of buildings? How do they know when to come out? If there is any truth in what the present Prime Minister said, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the early days of the War, that the country with the last £100,000 will win this War, may I presume to point out to him what raids of this description cost this country? Fortunately, the first occasion that we had a warning of the whiz-bang style was last Sunday morning. What did that accomplish? This great brain wave, which shows the magnificent intelligence of the people who are responsible for directing the destinies of this great Empire, produces an imitation of an air raid, so as to frighten everybody who would be frightened, when an air raid never took place. There were hundreds of thousands of people in London last Sunday who received a greater nervous shock than any act of the enemy over this country has ever produced. From all over London where these warning bombs were exploded, right, left, and central, I have received not less than 300 letters in the last few days from people begging me to impress upon the Government that this form of warning is infinitely more terrifying than a raid itself. To suggest that by firing off guns wildly and exploding shells without any rhyme or reason, suddenly, and without warning, is the way to get people to take shelter, only shows the exceedingly fatuous mind by which our officials arrive at any decision.
When it was all over, when—if I may use an Irishism—the raid that never took place had finished, how do you suppose that on an ordinary workday you would get the people back to their work? Supposing it took place at 3 o'clock in the afternoon and you have 5,000,000 people in London and its surroundings at work, and you start off this terrific bombardment, this imitation air raid which drives people into cellars, and no raid materialises. You get them there and they remain there until the word gradually filters through that the warning bombardment is over, and perhaps two hours later or one hour later you get them back to work. Does the Government understand what the cost will be to this country? Assuming that each man in this country to-day is only worth 1s. an hour, and that is putting it very mildly, there is a loss of 5,000,000 shillings for 5,000,000 hours, representing £250,000. That is the cost to this country of a false alarm, and yet they go on squandering money and plundering the public purse by their inefficiency and their absolute lack of the fundamental knowledge of how a thing ought to be done or how it can be done. All legislation in this War has been a mere panic method of dealing with an immediate popular outcry. If there had been no popular outcry in regard to these air raids there would have been no warning. This Government is not very far removed from the Government whose position it took. I had occasion to refer to it a little time ago, and the only positive change is that we have changed a Government of wait-and-see for a Government which asks us to wait and suffer.
This country is looking to the present Prime Minister for a definite lead, and a definite policy. I want the present Prime Minister to understand that we have to be prepared for raids of great magnitude in six months' time. In six months' time, when the German airmen begin to learn a little more than they do now, it will be no good standing at that Front Bench and lying to the Members of this House. It will be no good telling them that these enemy aeroplanes were 13,000 feet over London, when, if there is anybody on that Front Bench who knows one end of an aeroplane from another, he could satisfy himself that they were not 2,000 feet up. The aeroplane that dropped the bombs on the top of the Post Office was not 2,200 feet up. I have a photograph in my pocket which I will show to any hon. Member, and which was taken from the land underneath the aeroplane at the moment it was dropping the bombs on the Post Office, and it was not 2,200 feet up. You can actually see the fingers of the gunner on the machine gun. The machine gun is absolutely distinct. Every feature of that machine is distinct. If any hon. Member wishes to see the photograph I will show it to him. It is a photograph that was actually taken of that German machine which came over the Post Office at a height of 2,000 feet to drop its bombs, and yet we are told that no aeroplane came lower than 13,000 feet. When will the Government remember this, that it is no use lying to the House of Commons? It is no use getting up and saying that the enemy aeroplanes were not below 13,000 feet. There are hundreds of pilots in this country who were walking the streets of the City who told their friends, who in turn told others, that these German aeroplanes were down to 3,000 and 4,000 feet and in some cases to 2,000 feet. Gradually that spreads through the City, and distrust of the Government comes into evidence. There was an occasion only the day before yesterday when the Undersecretary for War had the courage, and I honour him for it, to get up and make a clean breast of a mistake which he had made. The mistake was his, but whose was the crime? It was the military crime of lying to the Government to cover their own misdeeds and deceiving and exploiting the people. We know quite well that aeroplanes accompanied that train on its visit to Southend, but had it not been for the discretion or the indiscretion of members of the Royal Family in expressing their thanks, that lie would have gone down to history and anyone who dared to say that those machines did accompany that train would have been called a panic-monger, a scaremonger, and a liar. It would have been said, "Did not the British Government, that which has stood the test of years for its integrity—did not a member of the British Government get up and say it was untrue?" By the mere chance of that letter being published in the papers we discovered that somewhere the people who write out the answers for Ministers to read to this House are lying.
I call upon the Prime Minister to stand by members of this Government, and if members of a military or naval Department provide them with falsehoods, then it is for the Prime Minister to send for the Minister who is responsible for that Department and see that those men are duly punished. That little incident of those few aeroplanes flying over that Royal train has done more to discredit the administration of the Government than many much more serious things. The people of this country are asking for a square deal, for the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. If we have not the courage as a nation to face cold facts as they are to-day, then we had better sue for peace. If we have got to be fooled and exploited by men whom we do not trust, then better throw ourselves on the mercy of the enemy. But I who have some knowledge of the people, who have reasons perhaps to know them better than some Members of this House, who have addressed more public meetings during the last eighteen months than any Member or than any dozen Members, who feel it my duty to address public meetings to try to pacify in some way the feeling which is prevalent throughout the country, say, and say with pride, that the heart of our people is absolutely sound. They are prepared to take their medicine whatever it may be. But there is one thing that even a brave man will not stand—that is to be deceived, fooled and exploited.
I ask the Government to set on foot immediately a system of warning the whole of England of approaching air raids by a scientific system which is capable of expansion and capable of meeting requirements as they arise. I call upon the Government, not in any sense as an act of charity, but as an act of justice, to state their policy as regards insurance and compensation of victims of air raids. The people of this country have their minds absolutely boggled by the way we are treated. One minute we are told to insure against air raids. The next minute we are told that we shall be compensated whether we insure or do not. It is not a very difficult thing to ask the Leader of the House to give us a square deal, and to tell us absolutely straight that the Government realise their liabilities and their responsibilities to the nation to compensate them and to insure them against the result of enemy air raids over this country. These are two things which I ask the Government to do. Then a third thing that I ask the Government to do is to pray for the vision, which should be theirs were they statesmen instead of politicians, which will bring home to them the fact that if the War is to be won at all it is to be won through the air. The aeroplane is the most ingenious weapon of war that has ever been placed in the hands of man to decide an issue such as this. We have seen what ten aero planes can do over London in ten minutes, flying on that occasion at 11,500 feet. The next time they came lower, but they were less successful because their luck was against them. Does any Member of this House realise what aeroplanes will be doing in six months' time? Does any Member of this House realise that this War is not going to be won by the pure weight of metal, of one armed force against another? This War is going to be lost by the nation whose moral is first destroyed and nothing is more demoralising than sustained air offences, than death which is hurled through the air without any means of protection or any shelter at all.
I may point out that there are aeroplanes in existence to-day, which I could name, which are capable of carrying six machine guns, which means something like 3,000 shots a minute, and 1,000 lbs. to 1,500 lbs. of high explosive bombs. I ask the House to imagine one of those machines coming down over the Marble Arch at four o'clock in the afternoon, when Oxford Street is busy with its ordinary civil life, and flying straight to the Post Office 500 feet up. There is no protection. There is no gun that could hit it at 500 feet. There is no aeroplane that would engage it. It could come over this City at 20,000 feet, and, within two or three minutes, by a vertical nose dive with its engines full on, it would be 500 feet over the Marble Arch. That is the first that people would hear of it. Perhaps people at the Marble Arch might look up and say, "Look at the pretty aeroplane!" If that machine were to fly direct to the Post Office, as it would do, it would take one minute and forty seconds. If it had two gunners, as the German machines now have—what I am trying to impress upon the House is not what is done to-day, but what may be done to-morrow and what we must be prepared for—those two gunners, working three machine guns each, could keep those guns going for one minute and forty seconds, each on one pavement. They could absolutely sweep the pavement with these machine guns. They could put something like 12,000 to 15,000 shots on each pavement, and if the pilot let go a 30-lb. or 20-lb. bomb every thirty or forty yards the whole of Oxford Street and the whole of Holborn would be devastated and 2,000 or 3,000 people would be lying dead. That is feasible when they begin to learn their business.
I appeal to this Government, before such a thing happens, not only to protect us from that, but to prepare to do it on them, which is more serious than anything else. I am satisfied that the moral of the people of this country is higher than that of our enemy. I am satisfied that we are not suffering anything like that which our enemies are suffering. The sacrifices that we are making to-day are nothing to the sacrifices which the Germans are making to-day, but we should judge our enemy's determination, and not their weakness, by the sacrifices which they are making. It would be well if we could only persuade the Government to take a broad view and a long view and not have their policy lost in the middle distance, to build and prepare, and to persuade, and above all to help the American nation to build and prepare. The American nation has been in this War with us for months, and I challenge the representative of the Air Board or the War Office to tell me that one of our aeroplanes has been sent to America to help them to help us. If it has it is quite recently. The very day America came into this War I asked a Private Notice Question of the Prime Minister, whether immediately and without delay, because delays in these matters cost human life, and may eventually cost us the War, he would send to America two or three of the latest types of our aeroplanes, due to accumulated experience in the course of three years, for the purpose of letting them see the character of the types of machines. I was told that everything was being done. I am not satisfied that it is so, or that we are helping the Americans as we should. We are told that there is no material in this country. Why not? It is owing to the rotten contracts that have been put out, and because half a dozen officials have tied themselves to certain designs for the building of aeroplanes which we know are no good. They are not only building aeroplanes, but they are building spare parts for them. I ask the representative of the Air Board not to take my word for it, but to take the word of one of the most responsible papers in this country, although it has amused itself by attacking me for what I have said during the past two years. They have published this, and they are prepared to stand for it, and if it is not true the Government should bring an action against the paper responsible for publishing it. of the world. We have to see in the streets of this City enemy damage inflicted, and suffer it in silence. When the people ask for protection they are recommended to keep in darkness. The country has become sick of darkness, and sick of the ignorance of those in office. Our people do not lack bravery, but behind them there is a terrible deficiency of brains, and no matter how brave a country may be, if it has not got brains behind it, it is foredoomed to failure. The position now is to drive straight forward. One argument which will be used if you ask the authorities to press on will be that we have no stream line tubes. Hundreds of aeroplanes have been held up because of the lack of this stream line tubing; but if that cannot be obtained, surely we can go back to the wooden struts. It might mean that the machine would crash more quickly, and that the pilot would have to be very delicate in landing, but even if you have not the stream line tubes, that is no excuse for not producing aeroplanes. You have got to find a substitute for stream line tubes, which has only been introduced within the last two years. Struts were used by Breguet before the War, and we can go back to wooden struts, which would only take off an eighth of a mile per hour. We must have a great building programme, and we must understand that it is no good building aeroplanes just to please Jacks-in-office. It must be understood that joy-riding round an aerodrome does not produce an aeroplane fleet, nor does it add to our defence either by day or by night. They raid us by day, so long as they can do so with impunity, and directly we make the risk too great by day they will attack us by night.
Suppose we do build up a great defensive in this country, which is the most expensive way of defence, since it keeps our best pilots here, the Germans will still send over machines. If they send 150 and lose ten they will say, "That is a big loss and we will try a night raid." If they do not lose more than ten in a night raid they will say, "Flying by night pays us better." I would point out that there is absolutely no defence against aeroplane attack at night. Aeroplanes can fly at a hundred miles an hour, and in the dark what could you do? Could you get a searchlight on an aeroplane going at that speed? I have seen the searchlights at work to get at a Zeppelin, which is 660 ft. long and 90 ft. across, and how are you going to get a searchlight on an aeroplane of 70 ft. span and 30 ft. over all going at a hundred miles an hour? How is our aeroplane going to shoot at him in the dark, or are you going to raid the clouds with high explosive shell and reduce London to a state of siege and kill more people than even they do with bombs? Are our men to go up in utter darkness not knowing whether or where they are bound to find something in the dark, or are you going to light them up to prevent them shooting at one another and enable the enemy to shoot at them? How are you going to defend this country by night? Perhaps the representative of the Air Board will enlighten the House with a short dissertation on how to defend against aeroplanes by night? There is no defence. There is only one way of defending by day or night, and that is by an offensive of our own so great over the enemy's country as to occupy him fully, until the moral of his country is so low that the people in their turn will demand of their Government to refuse to raid this country any more. Then, if we are fools, we shall stop raiding them. If we can stop the Germans raiding this country we can win the War by raiding their country, if we start immediately, as we can, to do so. We only lack the organisation. We have the most priceless men. Look at what they have done and the circumstances under which they have done it? They have flown on rotten machines. We have seen them, owing to our cursed officialdom, fly to certain death, and they have gone up cheerfully, and died to save the face of some high military or political chief.
Order, order! The hon. Member has now been speaking for more than an hour, and I must call his attention to Standing Order No. 19, which deals with repetition. Four, five, or six times he has been saying the same thing. I do not want to put that Standing Order into operation, and I shall be obliged to him if he will observe it.
I thank you for having mentioned the fact, and if I have done so it is because, I think, the only way of accomplishing anything in this world is by repetition. I am afraid I have repeated myself in this House before, and I will endeavour not to err in that direction. I would ask the representative of the Air Board to give this House, not anything in the way of a speech such as I have inflicted on him, but something in the way of cold facts and to tell the House something on which we can seize, and which will bring comfort and something which we in our turn, when fulfilling our obligations to our constituents, can tell them is being done, and something that he can stand convicted of if it is not done. I would ask the Under-Secretary for War if he replies, as I hope he will, to satisfy the House that so far as an offensive policy over the enemy's country is concerned, something actually definite is being done. It is not a question of reprisals. It is most unfortunate that the people of this country should have seized on that word and made it the medium of public meetings and demonstrations. It is not a question of striking back, it is more a question of using intelligently an arm which we have got at our disposal. I would ask the Under-Secretary to consider the attitude he has taken up with regard to our pilots. I heard it rumoured, and I have been told it on very good authority, that a new rule has been issued that no man who has not a public school education shall be allowed to be a pilot. [An HON. MEMBER: "Surely not!"] It is very regrettable.
I know a labourer's lad that had no public school education and he is flying well now.
I say I heard that that is a rule which is now being brought into force. I want the Under-Secretary for War to contradict it.
I have already contradicted it twice.
On the question of training, I would ask him to consider the advisability of training the non-commissioned ranks. Surely he appreciates that a sergeant or a soldier in these democratic times can fly just as well as an officer?
May I point out that only last week I answered a question and stated that 271 of the noncommissioned rank had been given commissions?
There is no reason why a private should not fly in our corps or a sergeant. In the French Flying Corps there are sergeants and privates who do so, and why should not we? Because we make them officers it puts an undue value on their loss. Surely it is no greater loss to this country for an airman to die than for one of our fellows who goes over the top? Hundreds and thousands of our men go over the top in the morning and may never come back. If a dozen of our pilots are lost there are so many officers gone, and an extraordinary case is made out. I would ask the Under-Secretary for War whether he will consider the advisability, at least so far as the defence of this country is concerned, of putting non-commissioned officers into the other Services. I would also appeal to other hon. Members, if they are not quite au fait with all these questions, to give themselves a little trouble to find out from people who are studying the questions outside the House, or who are in the service, and so accumulate facts. I would ask that they should look closely into the matter so as to come to the House and use the weight that a seat in the House ought to give in the right direction. I would ask them to use all the pressure they can bring to bear upon the Government to reform this service and so to create one which is more in keeping with the traditions of the past.
I wish to speak on another subject than that discussed this afternoon. Before doing so, however, I should like to say a word or two about some of the remarks which have fallen from the lips of the hon. Member for East Herts. In the course of a very long speech, parts of which were good and parts of which were not good, and to which there will, no doubt, be a very effective reply, the hon. Member made a most gross, offensive, and insulting attack upon officers in the War Office in relation to the officer who supplied the Under-Secretary for War with an answer. The hon. Member stated in the most offensive, insulting, and caddish language that these officers had lied. I venture to say that, whatever fault the British officer has, there is no British officer at the present time in the Service who is a liar.
If the hon. Member wishes to be offensive to me personally, I hope he will repeat it outside in the Lobby, so that I may be able to deal with it.
Certainly; I will repeat it to the hon. Member wherever he likes.
You shall this evening!
I say the remarks of the hon. Member for East Herts were most offensive and insulting to officers of the Army. They are absolutely untrue. As an officer in the Army I resent them most intensely. The subject with which I wish to deal to-night is that of man-power. I apologise for turning the Debate on to the subject in view of the fact that so many interesting subjects are being debated, but being only at home for a few days' leave I have no other opportunity of raising a discussion. Many remarks have been made about the question of man-power during the last few years; indeed, ever since the beginning of the War we have as a nation procrastinated, or rather the Government of the day has procrastinated, and delayed the question of providing the requisite number of men for the Army. We began with a trial of voluntary service. That went on for a very long time. Then we had the Derby scheme. Following that we had Conscription. When Conscription arrived at last it was so watered down by the enormous numbers of exemptions, and so on, that even with that scheme we have not yet been able to force the right number of men into the Army. Up to the present time, I think, the efforts prove that we shall be obliged to get every single man who is fit and able as soon as possible. The Russian situation has altered the whole outlook, which looked extremely rosy last year. It is obvious now that the War is likely to go on for a considerable time. I do think, therefore, we must get every man out. The question is one which has to be very carefully spoken about, because, of course, it is quite impossible to mention the number of men who have actually been called up. All, however, I propose to do is to suggest that there exist many reservoirs of able-bodied men who ought to be called out and debadged as soon as possible. A few weeks ago we had a most interesting speech from the hon. Member for East Glamorgan (Mr. C. Edwards), who stated that there were no less than 500,000 fit and able-bodied young miners who were in the mines, but were not required for the mines.
That is not true.
The hon. Member stated that fact, and I have not seen that it has been controverted. He also stated there were 15,000 men of military age exempted and badged for munition works. Whether or not those figures are correct, there is no one in this House who can get up and say that there are not hundreds of thousands of able-bodied men who are to-day badged. These men have not yet been combed out nearly sufficiently, and if the Government would only act with courage, and in face of the opposition which they would encounter, debadge these men and replace them with other men less fit they will be doing an enormous service to the Army and to the country. Our generals cannot be expected to smash through the German line of defence unless we have the largest possible number that we can possibly get from this country. There can be no doubt that there are—there must be—hundreds of thousands of men in these mines and munition areas who have not yet been called up, and who in this, the third year of the War, ought carefully to be gone through once more and replaced, if possible, by men discharged from the Army on account of physical defects, wounds, and so on, and who would very likely do their work very well. At any rate the Army must not have the unfit men, but the fittest men possible. You cannot send men into the trenches who are unable to carry their packs for two or three miles. You must have the strongest men. Those who are not able to carry their packs, as I have suggested, are yet in most cases quite strong enough to go into the munition areas and to do excellent work. That is one point I wish to refer to. The Government should go forward in spite of the opposition they may expect from all sorts of people and parties, the opposition of pacifists and cranks throughout the country who have never done a hand's-turn during the War to help things forward, but who keep up agitations against every form for increasing our military strength. The Government ought to take this question in hand, comb out these young men, and get them into training as soon as possible so at the end of six months or so they may be able to take their place in the line. Because, remember, it takes six months from the time the Government begins to act before the man got hold of can take his place in the line and face the enemy.
There is another point. The Government during this War have, apparently, absolutely refused to consider the question of Conscription in Ireland. The time has come now when the people of this country, the Empire, and our Allies are entitled to demand that Conscription shall be enforced in Ireland no matter at what cost. It is quite true you will have opposition there, but I do not believe that opposition will be anything like as great as it is painted by hon. Members connected with the Nationalist party. Even if these men do resist the law of the land they must be made to come into line, and to take their places alongside their brothers—
That question does not arise on this Vote. It requires legislation to deal with it.
Then I trust the Government will bring in the legislation as soon as possible. There is one other method which the Government might adopt, and that is to take every man between the ages of nineteen and twenty-three—because we must have young men—the younger men are far and away the most valuable. I say the Government must do away with the badges of exemption and have these men up. After all they have had three years of peace while other men have been in the trenches day in and day out and night in and night out for many weary months. The men in the trenches have been doing double time. Let these other men come forward and do their part. Do let Members of this House, instead of trying to obstruct in every way, as some hon. Members have done, the widening and extension of the Military Service Acts, go about the country and use their utmost efforts to persuade the people, and show them that it is absolutely necessary that these young men should come out and help us. Surely it is not fair when you see a man as I saw the other day, a man who came home on the same boat, with four stripes, and another man in the next battalion to me in the trenches with five stripes, and when many men have been there in the trenches for over two years, leading-lives of great hardship and danger, and frequently being wounded and suffering from illness through exposure. Surely it is time that every man who has not been out who is of fighting age and fit should, if possible, be replaced by some man who has been out for two years. Surely that is not beyond the powers of a Government which has the support of the vast majority of the people of this country. Finally, as regards the other method of getting men, as a last resource, if we do not get enough men from that we must raise the age from forty to forty-five. Every other country in the War, Germany, France, Austria, all have men over forty-five in their armies and employed. The French, I believe, have them up to fifty. The older men are not used in the front line, and would not be used as first-line troops, but lots of them are useful in holding other parts of the line, or in doing back-area work.
10.0 P.M.
Why should not men of forty and forty-five, men who are strong, go out and work when we use girls to drive cars in France? I speak as a man in his forty-fifth year, and I say it is perfectly possible for a man, fit and strong, to go out. These men would be examined before they went, and if they were found not fit and strong perhaps they could be given work at home more suited to them. I say that to go on as we are doing, leaving hundreds of thousands of men in this country, fit and able to fight—badged and protected, with the connivance of Departments of the Government, as in the case or that miserable circular sent round by the Ministry of Munitions, "How can I be protected from recruitment"—fancy one Government Department issuing such a circular as that—I say that to go and leave hundreds of thousands of men who have never seen a shot fired while others are pouring out their blood in streams is a scandal, and is treachery not only to the men in the trenches, but to our Allies as well. I do not wish to keep the House after the very long speech we have just had, but I see that the Secretary of State for War made a statement yesterday in which he said that recruiting was going to be handed over to a civilan tribunal, or rather that he suggested such a course. I sincerely hope that, at any rate, there will be some military representative on those tribunals, otherwise what will happen is that the scandals of the past where a very large number of men have been exempted owing to the lax action of certain tribunals will be repeated on a very much larger scale. At this period of the War, when we are at an intense crisis of our history, we require men, and those tribunals must act, with circumspection, I agree, but with the greatest strictness, so that every man possible can be produced. Although the Under-Secretary for War has to answer for these actions, I do not believe it is the fault of the War Office that these men have not been produced before; but it is a fact that the War Cabinet, this one as well as that of the Government that preceded it, have been afraid to act in a great many cases owing to the opposition which has arisen. I venture to say that if the Government do act with strength and determination, and if the hon. Members of this House who represent every part of the country carry the fiery cross throughout the land and point out to the people how absolutely necessary it is that every man should come out now in order that we may bring this War to a more speedy conclusion, they will be backed up by the vast majority of opinion in this country, and that neither in England, Scotland, Ireland, or Wales will resistance amount to anything worth mentioning.
I feel sure that the House will agree with me that my hon. and gallant Friend who has just spoken need have made no apology for raising this subject upon this occasion. The House is always glad to hear any hon. and gallant Member who is doing gallant service at the front when he returns, and particularly on a subject which he has made peculiarly his own. He said—and I for one will agree with him—that it is not the fault of the War Office that we are not giving to the men at the front the necessary reserves which would enable them to get the requisite periods of leave and the requisite rests from perpetually being in the trenches. My hon. and gallant Friend has suggested two or three reservoirs from which the War Office might get men. I am glad to think that there is one in any case, a very difficult one, where the waters are very stormy, with which I cannot, by the Rules of the House, deal; I refer to the question of conscription in Ireland. With that, of course, I cannot deal to-night, but with regard to the first reservoir, the question which I think was mentioned the other evening by the hon. and learned Member for East Glamorgan (Mr. C. Edwards), there would appear to be a great many young men in the mines in South Wales who, I understand, are physically fit, and not only physically fit, but anxious to join the military ranks—
Is that so?
My right hon. Friend asks if that is so. I have the same information as I think my hon. and gallant Friend has, information given to us on what I regard as good authority by an hon. and learned colleague in the House. My right hon. Friend will no doubt take an opportunity of refuting these statements if they can be refuted, but I wish to point out the source of my information which I am sure is the source from which my hon. and gallant Friend obtained his. I would like further to point out that though it is primarily the duty of the War Office to get men to serve in the ranks, it would appear to be the duty of other Government Departments to see that their particular Departments, and the industries over which they have control, are well equipped with men. We have, as has been pointed out, always the liability to strife and dissention existing between various Departments of the State, and it has flashed across my mind that if we were to take men from the mines of South Wales the Coal Controller and the Home Office would have a great deal to say. I am glad, therefore, that my hon. and gallant Friend has not put the blame upon the War Office. The third proposal he made was that we should collect all men aged between nineteen and twenty-three. I think it is a well-known fact that we have endeavoured in the War Office—actively endeavoured I venture to say—to get those men of that age. Some of us have taken the view that no man of twenty-three is indispensable, and that any man between nineteen and twenty-three, in whatever walk of life he may be, can always be replaced in a very short or very limited time. But again you will have one Government Department and another, coming forward with very good arguments—some may say very plausible arguments—and they themselves would consider them sincere and sound arguments—that we cannot suddenly and ruthlessly deprive any Department which has so far relied on the services of these men and send them into the Army. That is not a question, though I am, of course, very much interested in it, that I have to decide. It is a question of policy purely and simply for the War Cabinet, and I will make it my duty to see that my hon. and gallant Friend's reference to this third reservoir will be carefully studied by the War Cabinet as soon as possible. There was the fourth scheme of raising the age. I gathered during the discussion on a Bill for which I was responsible recently in the House that even the opponents of that Bill were not at all disinclined to the use of this reservoir, the raising of the age from forty-one to fifty. As the House knows very well, we have not extended the age compulsorily, but we have made it known as much as possible that we are most anxious any man who is between the ages of forty-one and fifty should offer his services voluntarily. I am glad to say that we have had a very good response indeed to that request, and that the men who have come forward and who have special characteristics for special work, the authorities tell me, are taking their place in positions where their services will be most valuable to the State.
Can the hon. Gentleman give us any idea as to the number of men between forty-one and forty-five who have volunteered?
I cannot give the number off-hand, and I am rather afraid of giving off-hand information, but if my hon. Friend will put down the question I shall be very happy to give an answer. The last part of my hon. and gallant Friend's speech referred to the statement which was made yesterday by my Noble Friend the Secretary of State for War before the Committee which has been sitting. I gather that the House has received that statement with a good deal of satisfaction. Of course, naturally, in any case, certain Members in the House would receive it that way; they say that so long as it is not under the War Office it is good enough for them. When it is controlled by the civil power it may be necessary to arm the body which might, or might not, be created ad hoc, with powers which no civil body has at the present time. The question of discipline is bound up with the question of recruiting, and it is not an easy departure to take out of the power of the military the powers and the right and give them to a civil authority, that is not, by its nature, accustomed to deal with matters of that sort. However that may be, it will be seen that my Noble Friend's proposal has been received with a great deal of satisfaction in the country, and as far as I am concerned, standing here, as I do, anxious to see that the Army should have large numbers of recruits in it, of good, strong men, fit to fight the nation's battle, I shall be very happy to welcome any proposal which will meet with the general goodwill of the country, and help the Army in its endeavour to get men. I do not think, as far as I remember, I have missed any points put to me. Of course the question of man-power is such a huge one that, as the hon. and gallant Member realised, in a Debate of this sort one can only deal with the fringe of it. It is a question which must necessarily fall within the domain of all Departments of the State, and it is therefore a question which can only, primarily, be settled or guided by the War Cabinet itself. I am very grateful to the hon. and gallant Member for raising the point, and I would also like to say that it does those of us in this House, who are interested in war matters on this side of the Channel, and also deeply interested in matters on the other side, good to find a strong breeze, I was going to say of bravery and endeavour, which seems to be inculcated by contact with our gallant soldiers at the front.
I rise to take part in this Debate because I think that, whilst the hon. and gallant Member, coming, as he has, straight from the front, naturally puts forward the view of the soldier, it would be a profound mistake if he and his fellow officers did not immediately realise that there was another side to this question. He opened his speech by denouncing the hon. Member for East Herts (Mr. Billing) because of the unfairness of his language and his attack upon other people, but he immediately fell into the error of calling other Members of this House who did not happen to agree with him cranks, faddists, and fanatics. Now, I put it to him that just as he claimed to be guided by the highest and best motives he at least must give the same credit to those who happen to disagree with him, and in the same connection I protest entirely against the implication of his statement that we cannot expect generals to break through unless they have the men. Someone says, "Hear, hear." Does that mean that at any period during the past two years there has been a shortage of men at the front? I say, no, and I challenge anyone to produce the actual evidence.
There is always a shortage of men. You can never have too many there.
Yes; but obviously no one ought to know better than the Undersecretary for War that there has been no offensive, from Neuve Chapelle down, that has failed because of a shortage of men. It is open to everyone who has been to the front and who knows the circumstances of what has happened at the front, and, if more evidence is wanted, you have only to read the Reports of the various Commissions which show you that there has not been that shortage of men which has been alleged. I agree entirely it is the duty of a soldier always to say, I want more men, and I presume it is in that connection that the hon. and gallant Gentleman made his speech, but that is an entirely different proposition to the suggestion that our generals have failed to do something because of a shortage of men. If that is so it is for them to make the position clear; it is for those who are conducting the War to come down to this House and say, we cannot go on because there is a shortage of men. That would immediately put the question in a right light and every Member of this House would then be charged with the serious responsibility of ignoring strong military views and opinions.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman one question? Has he amongst his acquaintances and friends any man or officer from the front who has been for eight or ten days in a wet trench because they cannot be relieved?
Yes; and I have made many inquiries and deeply sympathise with them, and I have also met hundreds of men and received many letters from men who have not been relieved at the front for three years, and their complaint is that others have had leave every three months. Everyone must know perfectly well what our lads have gone through, and go through. No leave ought to be denied them if it can be legitimately given but, much as they want leave, they resent nothing more than that, short as the leave it, it is unfair in its application. But I am going to submit that, after three years' experience of the War, it is a vital mistake to talk at this time as if the War is merely to be determined by soldiers. What was the object of the mission to America? I am surprised at countenance being lent to this kind of thing by some-one speaking for the War Office. It is no secret that the real problem facing the Government at the moment is the U boat warfare. And how are they endeavouring to meet it? Not by combing-out, but by actually now bringing skilled men from the Army because they are more useful in dealing with the shipbuilding problem than they are fighting in the trenches. In the next place, it is no secret that the Government at the moment are concentrating on aeroplanes, and is it to be assumed, after the statement of the Under-Secretary, that those engaged on aeroplanes, which are vital at this moment, would be better in the Army if they happen to be between the ages of nineteen and twenty-three? It is a monstrous statement, and it shows clearly that, in spite of all the experience of the War, we are not realising the real lesson. The hon. Member for one of the Glamorgan constituencies made a statement about hundreds of thousands of young miners being in the pits. Do you know how many miners there are in the pits of the whole of the United Kingdom? If you do not, I will tell you. There are less than 900,000 in the whole of the country—surface men and underground men. Then, has my hon. Friend forgotten to read the Report of a Government Commission presided over by Sir Richard Redmayne, as representing the Government, and consisting of colliery proprietors, and miners representatives? Their unanimous opinion was that if there was another man taken from the mines the interests of our Navy would be imperilled. In other words, the very first line of defence, namely, our Navy, would be in jeopardy if this policy of combing-out, as they call it, were carried into effect. Then let us take agriculture. Is it not notorious that the food problem has reached the stage it has to-day because they have taken men from agriculture who would have been better employed providing food?
I say it is a mistake merely to talk of what this nation is doing based upon the soldiers who have enlisted. But, incidentally, I would be prepared to accept that challenge, and I would say that, taking the population of this country, and comparing it with any of the Allies at this moment, we are contributing pro rata to our population more than any of our Allies. I am not grumbling at that, because I want to see the maximum effort put forward. But it is unfair, and it represents us to foreign countries in a bad light when we are continually suggesting that this country is not doing its bit. Everyone knows perfectly well that it is doing its bit. But if there is any substance in the warning we had yesterday from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as well as the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer, then it clearly shows, apart from everything else, that you cannot turn everybody into a consumer and have no producers, and hope to go through this War successfully. Because this question must be considered in a broad light, I hope we shall have less talk about this combing-out. If there are men escaping military service there is an easy means of ascertaining it. Two years ago, when the Registration Bill was passing through this House, the Government set up a Committee to put it into operation. I then suggested that the responsibility should be thrown upon all employers of keeping a register of new employés, because, curiously enough, workpeople change their residence at least four times as often as they change their employment. Therefore you will see that by that means the employers themselves could form a register which would be invaluable so far as the Government is concerned. The Government can themselves ascertain the age record, and credentials of every man in employment. Hon. Members know that the Government are now asking those in skilled industries if they are nineteen years of age not to join the Army because they are more essential working at their trades.
Take the case of the railways. It is no secret that an Order had to be issued, and I took the responsibility—I do not know whether I come under the category of a crank or a faddist—and I took the risk of instructing my men to work during an air raid. If what happened during the early stages of the War had continued, the Germans know that without dropping a solitary bomb in this country they could have achieved their object. On account of what was happening the whole of the railways stopped, and the result was that so much was our traffic blocked that foodstuffs were rotting, transports held up, and munitions were being prevented from getting to the front. In face of all this, people now glibly talk about railway men being combed out, although they have been working eighty and ninety hours every week for the last three years. You have to consider this question in all its aspects. Of course, I appreciate the motive of the hon. and gallant Member who raised this question, because after all we all ought to appreciate a fellow Member of this House coming from the front and voicing sentiments which he believes to be those which prevail there. On the other hand, much as we will appreciate the hon. Member's gallantry and efforts, we at least, as Members of Parliament, ought not to blind ourselves to what is our obvious duty, namely, to consider the War not from the point of view of the soldier alone, but from the trade, commerce, financial, and every conceivable aspect, so that if it is to be a war of endurance there will be no section of the community that will break down before the other.
I am called upon to intervene in this Debate by some remarks which have just been made by the hon. Member opposite. In regard to the question of leave, the hon. Member must know, and everybody must know in this House, that the number of transports available to bring men home is limited. In these days it is not possible for any transport with a full load of soldiers to cross the Channel without an escort, and, after all, the destroyers which do that work are wanted for a variety of purposes, and they are required over a very large area. The question of leave has been gone into most carefully, and the Higher Command of the General Staff are most anxious that all men who can possibly be spared should come home for a spell of rest and change. There are, however, only a certain number of men who can be given leave, on account of the shipping accommodation being limited, and the fact that men cannot be spared from the work which they are doing. A certain number of leave permits are given to each Army or Corps. Lots are drawn from these, and any men who have any special business at home of a very urgent nature are also given permits. Therefore, the House must realise that it is not possible each day for more than a certain percentage of the whole force to be allowed to come over, but up to the maximum leave is given, and the men come across to England. It is very unfortunate, as the right hon. Gentleman has said, that there are certain men who have served for a very long time without having been able to come over, but it is just unfortunate and bad luck. It is nobody's fault in particular, and I am quite certain, if leave can be given to those men, that it will be done.
The right hon. Gentleman also made some remarks as to man-power. He rather challenged anyone to say that the supply of men had not been ample at all times for what we required to be done. Does he realise the magnitude of a War of this kind? We have had great successes, considering the almost insurmountable obstacles we have had to tackle, but if we had had a greater supply of men and had had sufficient troops we might have made a very much greater impression on the Germans. I can assure the House that we have never had what I call sufficient men. We have never had sufficient troops to throw in on the great occasions. I can assure the House that the results might have been far greater if on certain occasions during this War we had had new bodies of men to throw in and to make a far greater success of the splendid work that had been already done by those men in the divisions. It is vitally necessary to-day, more necessary than ever, that the divisions should be kept up to full strength. If they are kept up to full strength, I feel perfectly convinced that in the not far distant future, as a preliminary step, the Germans will be driven back at any rate to the line of the Meuse.
We hope and believe, before many months are over, that the American Army will be able to put a considerable force into the field, which will greatly relieve the situation. No Army has done finer work than the French Army. They have certainly done what one might call wonders. It is up to us as a nation to support them by all the means in our power, and to do even more than our share. We have in France the ablest of Commanders, and a most excellent Staff. Everything is going well; everything is perfectly satisfactory. The one thing that is necessary is that the divisions should be kept filled up to their full strength, and that, wherever possible, we should have new units and fresh reserves in order to throw them in at the required point.
I should like to reinforce one statement made by the hon. Member for East Hertfordshire (Mr. Billing) in a speech which did not seem to meet with great approval in the House. He spoke strongly against the inefficiency and waste that arise out of the practice of the Government Departments in getting expert designers to alter and generally mangle and partially destroy the efficiency of designs submitted to them for approval. That has been a fatal practice throughout the history of recent years in the Army and the Navy too. I know it is going on in the Air Service. The sooner the Air Board arrives at the common-sense conclusion that when they get a good design submitted to them by competent people which will do what they require they should adopt it as it is, and work upon it, and not allow their own experts to pull it to pieces and destroy its efficiency, the sooner we shall get a rapid supply of aeroplanes.
This Vote of Credit is for an enormous sum of money for the purposes of the War. I ask the Government to give an assurance to the House that this money is not being voted for any other purpose, and that they are not contemplating the spending of large sums on various matters which are not going to promote the carrying on of the War. I remember that on the last Vote of Credit I asked for an assurance that at any rate the Government were not going to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds in making social experiments in Carlisle and other places in this country, but it appears that considerable sums nave been paid out of the Exchequer for licensed property and breweries and for the reconstruction of licensed properties and matters of that kind—work which I can assure the House is being carried on in a very extravagant manner. Large numbers of men who ought to be doing War work are diverted to the building and reconstruction of licensed properties by the Control Board. It is a most extravagant expenditure in men and money. I ask that this should not go on, and that the Government should divert money which is being squandered in this way to carrying on the War. Whatever experiments they want to make in the construction and reconstruction of licensed property and the acquiring of breweries should not be carried out at a time when everything we have is required for carrying on the War.
There is one other matter to which I wish to refer. I am not going over the ground, which is well known, of the profound uneasiness which has been created by recent appointments to the Government. There will, no doubt, be other occasions to discuss matters of that kind. But I will ask the Government a question on a matter which has not yet been raised. Many persons inside and out of the House are inquiring the reason why the First Lord of the Admiralty has left the Board of Admiralty and taken another office. I know the statement put forward in the Press and from mouth to mouth in many quarters is that his services are required to reinforce the counsels of the War Cabinet. There are many persons now who know that any statement of that kind is not in accordance with the facts. There are other reasons. The truth has not yet been told. I ask the Government, if they are not prepared to tell the whole story to give an assurance that this change does not portend an era of amateur strategy forced on the Board of Admiralty from outside. There is great uneasiness arising in many quarters that something of that kind is intended, and that pressure has been exercised on the Board of Admiralty to take a certain line of policy, strategy, and tactics which has not met with the approval of the Board. It will allay that anxiety if the Government would state the reasons why there has been a change at the Admiralty. There will be other opportunities of discussing the appointments to the Ministry of Munitions and to the Ministry of Reconstruction, and the appointment of the Secretary of State for India, all of which have caused the most profound uneasiness and have shaken confidence in the management of the affairs of the country. On these matters an assurance should be given to the House, and I ask that it may be given on this occasion.
I should like to ask if it is too late to-night for us to hope for an answer to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford (Mr. Hewins), that we may have an answer to-morrow?
I do not think the House would desire that we should at this time go into either of the questions which have just been raised. I did not think any special answer was required to the speech of my hon. Friend. So far as I know—I think this is all the answer that is necessary—there is no change whatever in the announcements which have been made by the Government as to their policy on the questions raised. That policy remains as it has been already explained. I think that represents all that was asked by the hon. Member for Hereford. As to what my hon. Friend has just said, the question on which he wished an assurance was that the Admiralty was not to be run by amateur stategists. I can give him that assurance.
Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.
Civil Services and Revenue Departments Supplementary Estimates, 1917–18
Class II
Resolution reported,
"That a sum, not exceeding £1,840, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Conciliation and Arbitration Board for Government employés."
Resolution agreed to.
Class IV
Resolution reported,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £17,000, be granted to His Majesty to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for the Salaries and Expenses of the National Gallery and of the National Gallery of British Art, Millbank."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution.
Is this put down in this form because it is a new service? I think something ought to be said about a new service. I welcome it myself though I do not think in every respect this is a time at which money can be advantageously spent to any large extent in developing artistic ventures.
The new Service that was put down to be passed to-day was on what it was necessary should be paid without delay. Otherwise, we should have waited for a subsequent occasion. This Layard bequest was a bequest which left a very large and valuable collection of pictures to this country. It so happened that the operation of the will was subject to a dispute by members of the family, and there was a law suit regarding a small portion of the collection, and the case was tried. The Government was represented by one of the Law Officers of the Crown, but it was thought desirable to effect a settlement of the case, which was done, at a price considerably less than the value of the pictures that were secured by that settlement. Quite apart from their artistic merit, the mere money value of the pictures which have accrued to the nation from this bequest is a very considerable amount, and I am quite sure that the hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King) would be as pleased as anybody in this House at the increased attraction which will come to our national galleries of art by the Layard collection.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolution reported,
"That a, sum, not exceeding £21,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for the Salaries and Expenses of the National War Museum, including a Grant in Aid of Purchases."
Resolution agreed to.
Ways and means [24th July]
Resolution reported,
"That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ended on the 31st day of March, 1918, the sum of £664,265,560 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
Resolution agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolution by the Chairman of Ways and Means, Mr. Bonar Law, and Mr. Baldwin.
CONSOLIDATED FUND (NO. 4) BILL,—"to apply a sum out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the year ending on the thirty-first day of March, one thousand nine hundred and eighteen," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 83.]
Public Works Loans Bill
Read the third time, and passed.
Finance Committee
Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed—
To examine the current Expenditure defrayed out of moneys provided by Par- liament and to report what, if any, economies consistent with the execution of the policy decided by the Government may be effected therein:
To make recommendations in regard to the form of Public Accounts, the system to control within the Departments and by the Treasury, and the procedure of this House in relation to Supply and Appropriation, so as to secure more effective control by Parliament over Public Expenditure; and to have power to appoint from outside its own body such additional persons as it may think fit to serve on any Sub-Committee which it may appoint with the view to the preparation of such recommendations:
Ordered, That the Committee do consist of Twenty-six Members:
Committee accordingly nominated of: Mr. Adamson, Mr. Arnold, Sir Frederick Banbury, Mr. Blair, Mr. Boland, Colonel Godfrey Collins, Mr. George Faber, Mr. Percy Alfred Harris, Mr. J. M. Henderson, Sir Charles Henry, Mr. Holt, Mr. Horne, Mr. Haydn Jones, Mr. Leif Jones, Mr. MacVeagh, Mr. Marriott, Mr. James Mason, Mr. Mooney, Sir Samuel Roberts, Mr. Herbert Samuel, Mr. Scanlan, Colonel Weigall, Colonel Sir Robert Williams, Mr. J. W. Wilson, Mr. Tyson Wilson, and Mr. Wilson-Fox.
Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records.
Ordered, That Five be the quorum.—[ Mr. Bonar Law. ]
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th February, proposed the Question, "That this. House do now adjourn."
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at a Quarter before Eleven o'clock.