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Commons Chamber

Volume 96: debated on Thursday 26 July 1917

House of Commons

Thursday, July 26, 1917

Private Business

Colonial Bank Bill [ Lords ] (by Order),

Third Reading deferred till Monday next, at a Quarter-past Eight of the clock.

Glasgow Boundaries Act (1912) Amendment Order Confirmation Bill (by Order),

Consideration deferred till Tuesday next.

Cape of Good Hope Observatory

Copy presented of Report of His Majesty's Astronomer at the Cape of Good Hope to the Secretary of the Admiralty, for the year 1916 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers to Questions

War

New Writ (Kilkenny City)

"That Mr. Speaker do issue his warrant to the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland to make out a New Writ for the election of a Member to serve in this present Parliament for the City of Kilkenny in the room of Patrick O'Brien, Esquire, deceased."

The hon. Member for North Westmeath has a Motion on the Paper to move for a New Writ for Kilkenny City, but I have received an intimation that a New Writ will be moved on Monday by a member of the party to which the deceased member belonged.

If the hon. Member disputes that, will he raise it at the end of Questions?

Executions for Political Offences (Egyptians)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many Egyptians have been executed for political offences since August, 1914; whether the tribunal that sentenced them was military or civil; whether Egyptian or British; whether open or secret; how many have been transported or otherwise banished from Egypt; and where these now are?

I have asked his Majesty's High Commissioner in Egypt for a report, which has not yet reached me.

Paris Conference (Balkan Affairs)

asked whether the United States, Serbia, Roumania, and Greece will be each separately represented at the forthcoming Paris Conference on Balkan affairs; if not, which of these Powers and what other Powers will be so represented; and if the United States will not be represented what reasons can be given for such absence?

The Conference will be composed of representatives of France, Great Britain, Italy, and Russia. Representatives of the United States, Serbia, Roumania, and Greece have also been invited to attend.

May I ask whether there is any truth in the statement made in some of the papers that this Conference is going to make a fresh statement of the War aims in reply to the German Chancellor?

May I ask this question on the ground that it becomes a matter of great importance whether the United States is represented or not?

May I press for an answer as to whether the United States and other States have accepted the invitation which has been extended to them?

Does that mean that the right hon. Gentleman does not know what the answer is or that he is unwilling to tell us? May I ask for an answer to this categorical question?

The hon. Member's question does not arise out of the question on the Paper.

I respectfuly beg to draw your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the fact that my question is whether the United States will be represented, not whether they have been asked to attend, and that has not been answered.

That is obviously a question entirely for the United States, and the hon. Member ought to see that these questions are not in the public interest.

San Thome (Death Rate)

asked whether, as the corrected death rate amongst contracted labourers in San Thomé is now stated to be 10 per cent., this result is considered satisfactory; whether the Government desire British cocoa manufacturers to purchase cocoa grown under these conditions; and whether it is proposed to take any further action with a view to bringing about a reduction in the death rate?

The attention of Consul General Hall Hall has been called to the corrected death rate and he reports that even allowing for this correction he considers that as the planters have made great efforts to improve the conditions under which labour is done on the plantations including the provision of new and hygienic living accommodation and a new and well equipped hospital, it would not be fair to condemn them on the strength of this figure alone. The answer to the second part of the question is therefore in the affirmative, and to the last part that the conditions on the island will be carefully watched for the future. In the meantime the attention of the Portuguese authorities will be called to the high figure of the death rate.

Irish Revolution (Executions)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, seeing that prisoners who fought equally with those executed in Ireland in May, 1916, have since been released and that no such reparation can be made in the cases of those executed, the Government, recognising how refusal to allow the remains to be transferred to consecrated ground is regarded in Ireland and abroad, will now make this concession to Christian and human feeling?

I am unable to add anything to the answer given to the hon. Member on 22nd June.

Do the Government still adhere to their decision to refuse a Christian burial to those men who were murdered by Maxwell?

I can only refer the hon. Member to the answer which was previously given.

Does the Government expect that this will create a favourable atmosphere for the Irish Convention?

Housing (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary if he can see his way to induce the Treasury to give grants to local authorities to carry out those schemes under the Labourers Acts which have been for some years on the shelf, and thus give a chance to those poor people who live in hovels to live in some kind of decency and comfort?

The hon. Member is no doubt aware that owing to the necessity for the curtailment of capital expenditure by local authorities during the War, the issue of loans for the purpose of financing new schemes under the Labourers Acts has been wholly suspended. The Treasury restrictions in this respect are as necessary now as at the outbreak of war, and owing to the present high prices of building materials it would be imprudent for local bodies to embark on building operations. The cost of the cottages would be prohibitive.

asked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that a handbill issued by order of the executive of the Irish volunteers is being widely distributed in certain parts of Ireland; whether he is aware that the order defines the objects for which the Irish volunteers have been formed as those of Easter, 1916, and for which many have suffered the tyranny of England's penal prisons, and that it is the duty of every Irishman to train, arm, and equip himself for service in the army of Ireland; and will he say whether under a recent Regulation, unauthorised arming and drilling has been forbidden in the United Kingdom?

A handbill such as is referred to in the question has been distributed in some places in Ireland and any person against whom there is evidence of responsibility for the distribution will be prosecuted. As to the latter part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the Order made by my right hon. Friend on the 28th November last under Regulation 9 E of the Defence of the Realm Regulations and to Orders made by the Competent Military Authority in Ireland, under Regulations 30 and 33a of the same Regulations.

Are these orders being enforced? Are these Irish Volunteers being allowed to drill and organise openly?

Food Supplies

Corn Production (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that under the Corn Production Bill it is now suggested that in the event of the average price falling under the guaranteed price the farmers' claim per acre shall be in the case of wheat four times the difference per quarter, of oats five times; is he aware that the average produce per acre of wheat in Ireland for the years 1911, 1912, 1913, 1914, 1915, 1916 was 4.7 quarters, of oats 6.3 quarters; and whether he will take steps to ensure that the Irish farmer shall have his claim based on the Irish production?

My right hon. Friend informs me that the figures are substantially as stated by the hon. Member, but if the suggestion with regard to Irish average production were adopted it would be necessary to take the Irish average price as well, and this would involve a reduction in the minimum price for Ireland.

Fish

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he has now considered the possibility of revising the Order requiring the prepayment of freight by the consignors of fish in England and Wales; and whether he will place such consignors on the same terms as those granted to Scottish and Irish fish merchants?

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply given to the question asked yesterday on this subject by the hon. Baronet the Member for Lowestoft.

Has the hon. Gentleman's attention been drawn to the enormous quantities of fish destroyed at Billingsgate last week, and does he not think, if the same facilities were given in England as are given in Scotland and Ireland, that it might do something to prevent this destruction of fish at a time when food is so much needed?

My attention has not been drawn to any quantity of fish being destroyed.

But any fact brought to my notice will be inquired into. As regards the latter point, the Railway Executive appointed a small Committee to go into the question, and they have reported to me that they have succeeded in removing all cause of complaint.

Cheese

asked the Secretary to the Board of Trade when the announcement as promised will be made to the provision trade in regard to the sale of Government cheese?

Six hundred and twenty-five thousand circulars have been issued to the various sections of the trade setting forth the General Regulations applicable to the sale of Government controlled cheese. Supplementary Regulations dealing with special cases are now being printed, and will be issued without delay.

Can the hon. Gentleman say what the Government cheese is and why it is so disagreeable?

London and Provincial Produce Exchange

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food how the London and Provincial Produce Exchange is constituted; if he will give the names and addresses of those who act upon it as well as the interests they represent; at what date was the fixing of standard prices for butter entrusted to them, and how many meetings of this body have been held since, giving the date of each meeting; will he say what were the standard prices laid down at such meetings for Danish, Irish, and Colonial butter, giving each separately; whether, during some weeks, the Irish and Danish butter was fixed at the same price, and for what reason was this discontinued and a supposed neutral State which supplied butter to Germany allowed 17s. per cwt. more than Ireland, which contributes largely to the Imperial Exchequer; is the Danish and Colonial butter industry being subsidised at the expense of the Irish farmer, and, if so, why is this course adopted, as subsidies should, if essential, be granted out of State funds; and will steps be taken to ensure that the Irish farmer, who gives all his butter to England, is placed on a similar plane with the Danish farmer, who has since the outbreak of War been supplying the Germans, and have his butter prices fixed in an equitable fashion?

The detailed information required in this question exceeds the limits of an ordinary reply, but I have had prepared and am sending to the hon. Member a list of the seventy-nine delegates who constitute the London and Provincial Produce Exchange. I have added a table of butter prices fixed at all meetings from the first on the 9th March down to the last on 20th July. He will see from this table that from 27th April until 24th May the same prices were fixed for Irish and for Danish butter, while since the 25th May the price for Danish butter has been higher. The price in each case must naturally be fixed with some reference to its effect upon supplies. It would clearly be useless and harmful to fix for Danish butter a price that would result to all such butter going to other markets. I do not understand the suggestion that this involves in any way giving a subsidy to Danish farmers at the expense of Irish farmers.

Meat Prices

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware of the control of the meat market that has been established by the American firm of Swift, Morris, Armour, and Archer; is he aware that shops and businesses in the meat trade, though nominally owned by Britishers, are actually owned by one member or other of this ring; is he aware that they will only do business with the public through certain jobbers, and that unless these jobbers offer the price agreed on by the ring available supplies of meat are held off the market; and will he say what steps his Department will take to break a combination which is endeavouring to force up the price of meat against the public?

Under the control scheme now being prepared by Lord Rhondda, which will come into operation on 1st September, maximum prices will be fixed, and the operations in this country of all firms, both British and American, will be controlled.

Wasted Food (Swanley)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food who was responsible for the wasted food which was sent to Swanley siding; and, if not, will the Minister of Food have a thorough inquiry made with a view to the punishment of those persons responsible for the waste of food?

I am making further inquiries into this matter and will inform my hon. Friend of the result as soon as the report of the inquiry has been received.

Maximum Retail Prices

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food, if he will give a complete list of the articles of human food for which maximum retail prices have been fixed, together with such prices?

I will arrange to have the list required published in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Special Flour

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if the special flour to be supplied for the manufacture of bread on doctors' certificates is to be supplied by chemists or by bakers; if the latter, are all bakers to be supplied with stocks of this special flour; and, having regard to the abuses which will arise under such conditions, will the whole matter be reconsidered?

Special flour, when authorised, is supplied not by chemists or by bakers, but by millers, to whom a licence for a specified supply is forwarded in each case. I am not aware that any abuses have arisen or are likely to arise under this system, and I see no reason to vary it.

Arising out of that unsatisfactory reply, may I ask how this special flour is to be obtained from the millers and if it is to be available for girls who chiefly live on bread and butter, or only to dyspeptics who bring doctors' certificates?

As I have explained in previous answers, applicants apply in the usual way, supplying a medical certificate, to the Food Controller, and then an authorisation is sent to a particular miller to forward the quantity required.

Will the hon. Gentleman consider whether he is not courting difficulties in the method of proceeding to be adopted?

Sulphate of Ammonia

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he is aware that during 1916 flat rates were fixed for the sale of large quantities of sulphate of ammonia to farmers at prices considerably lower than those on the open market; that these prices made it a very attractive purchase to farmers, from which they have in general derived considerable benefit; that during two and a-half months in the spring of that year export was suspended so that the supply for agricultural purposes might be ample; that the prohibition of export was finally withdrawn only because congestion at makers' works threatened to interfere with the supply of necessary materials for munitions; and that the rates fixed by the late Government were accepted by their successors as being fair and attractive to farmers; and whether the information in his possession tends to show that a great deal of the increased use of sulphate of ammonia during the present season has been due to the efforts made in 1915 and 1916 to popularise and increase the use of this fertiliser?

The reply to the first four parts of the question is in the affirmative. The rates fixed by the late Government were used as the basis for subsequent negotiations with makers, but the altered system of distribution arranged in February last helped to stimulate the demand, and during the four months February to May, 1917, the quantity sold for agricultural purposes was 99,875 tons, as compared with 35,128 tons in the same period of the preceding year.

Stock Feeding

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture if he will at the earliest possible date state what hay and straw, if any, will be commandeered and what corn will be available for stock-feeding purposes during next winter, in order that the number of head of stock can be arranged accordingly?

All hay or oat or wheat straw now standing in bulk in Great Britain and Ireland and the Isle of Man, or as and when harvested, is taken possession of by the Army Council, excepting such hay or straw of the 1916 or earlier crop as has been released by sale licence, but farmers and stock breeders are authorised to use a reasonable quantity of hay or oat or wheat straw in their possession for consumption by stock in their possession or control. I regret I am not yet in a position to say what proportion of the corn crop can be liberated for stock feeding, a matter which is under discussion with the Food Controller.

Is the farmer to judge as to what is a reasonable amount to retain for his own requirements?

Yes; I think in most cases he would be. The number of stock which he has on the farm affords a very good guide as to the amount of feeding stuffs required.

Has he to obtain anybody's leave before he retains a reasonable amount for his own requirements?

So far as I know he has not. So long as he satisfies the Army Council authorities that he has a certain amount of stock he should be allowed to keep the amount required to feed that stock.

Brewery and Distillery Industries (Ireland)

asked whether it is proposed to grant any return to Ireland for the increased services rendered by food production this year; if he will see that the brewery and distillery industries will reap a little of the benefit of the increased labours of the Irish farmers; if he is aware of the number of men who have lost their employment as a result of the restrictions; if he is aware that the restrictions have inflicted more hardship on Irish workers than on English workers; if he is aware that English workers when dismissed from breweries went directly into munition factories, whilst Irish workers and their families were left to starve; and if he will see that the Irish brewers will be allowed to brew increased supplies without destroying the quality by reducing the gravity?

As regards unemployment caused by the brewing and distilling restrictions, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to a question on the 12th July; and as regards the reduction of gravity of beer and stout, to the answers given by the Ministry of Food to questions on the 16th and 19th July.

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the portion of my question whether the Irish brewers will gain any of the benefits from increased food production in Ireland?

I believe that point is answered in the reply to which I have referred, but if not it should be addressed to the Ministry of Food.

Department of Agriculture, Ireland (Wages)

asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) if he will state the lowest rate of wages his Department is paying to their employés in Ireland; and if he will state the wages paid in the forestry centre of Dundrum and Avondale?

The lowest general rate of wages paid by the Irish Department of Agriculture is 18s. a week. At the Dun-drum forestry centre the wages are paid as follows: Engine driver, 25s. per week; sawyer, 24s. per week; second sawyer, 20s. per week; foreman, 21s. per week. The unskilled labourers are paid 18s. per week. At the Avondale forestry centre the foreman receives 30s. per week and the labourer is paid 15s. per week and was given a bonus of £5 at the end of last year.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think that 15s. and 18s. a week are wages on which these people should feel content?

That is a question of which notice should be given to the Chief Secretary.

Will the Commission appointed to consider industrial unrest be allowed to go over to Ireland to investigate the cases where you pay married men 15s. and 18s.?

Questions

Prisoners of War (Merchant Seamen)

asked the President of the Board of Trade if the decision of the Admiralty and the Board of Trade given on 8th May allocating the transmission of parcels of food and clothes to masters and officers of the merchant service who are prisoners of war was arrived at without consulting the wishes of their representative bodies; if the Mercantile Marine Service Association, the senior representative body of British shipmasters and officers, has been regularly supplying the needs of these prisoners during the past two years; and if he will now instruct the Central Prisoners of War Committee to consult the wishes of the Mercantile Marine Service Association before adopting any arbitrary action?

The Central Prisoners of War Committee recognise various associations and committees for the purpose of packing and dispatching parcels to prisoners of war, with the object of ensuring that no prisoners of war are not provided for. The Committee allocate individual prisoners of war to one of the recognised associations or committees. The Board of Trade and the Admiralty have recognised the Central Prisoners of War Committee as entitled to deal with the associations and committees which provide for officers and seamen of the mercantile marine in the same way as they deal with the associations and committees which provide for military, naval, and civilian prisoners of war. I am, therefore, transmitting copy of this question and answer to the Committee, and I would suggest that the Mercantile Marine Service Association should put themselves into communication with that body.

Restrictions on Imports (Silk Nets)

asked the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether quantities of silk nets are being imported into the United Kingdom without apparently being subject to the limitations imposed upon imports of cotton lace; whether the lace trade, and those accustomed to work for it, are thereby prejudiced; and whether he will consider if silk nets should not be placed upon the same footing as cotton lace in respect of limitation imposed upon the amount of which import is permitted?

Both silk manufactures and cotton lace are admitted under licences granted on the basis of a fixed proportion of the previous imports of these goods. No specially favourable treatment is extended to silk as compared with cotton lace.

Tory Island (Ireland)

The following question stood upon the Paper in the name of Mr. GINNELL:

30. To ask the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will give the House some particulars of the discovery of a German submarine base, comprising tanks of petrol, stores of spare parts, etc., on Tory Island; whether investigation has shown that this base was established towards the end of 1913 and beginning of 1914 for a purpose wholly different from that for which it has since been used; why the persons in Belfast who have been all along since then aware of this base have not been tried for concealing their knowledge; by what sort of tribunal and with what result have any persons been tried in connection with the discovery; and can he state the reasons for not holding a full judicial inquiry?

Before the right hon. Gentleman answers this question, might I ask whether the First Lord of the Admiralty was still a Member of the House when the question was first put upon the Paper, because he is personally concerned, and, if he is still a Member of the House, he ought to be here to answer it?

So far as is known at the Admiralty, every statement made in this question is without foundation.

Has independent inquiry been made of the Belfast business men referred to in this question?

I have made the closest inquiry in the office, but I cannot pretend to take up the time of hard-worked officials by following up all these suggestions of the hon. Member.

They are not suggestions. They are positive facts, and if the question on the Paper were pursued it would lead to their confirmation.

Navy (Alleged Grievances)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention has been called to the statement of alleged grievances of the men of the Fleet recently circulated; and whether he has any statement to make on the points raised?

Yes, Sir; I have seen the statement to which my hon. Friend refers. Certain of the matters set forth in it have been under our consideration for some time, and I hope to be in a position to make a statement, if suitable opportunity offers, within the next few days.

Will it be made in the course of the Debate on the Consolidated Fund Bill?

Admiralty (Case of Mr. Frank Tiarks)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether Mr. Frank Tiarks, a partner in the German firm of John H. Schroder and Company, of which Baron Bruno Schroder is the head, has been appointed to a post at the Admiralty; and, if so, what is the nature of his duties; and whether, although born in this country, he is the son of a German and is married to a Hamburg lady?

Mr. Tiarks, who was formerly an officer in the Royal Navy, has rejoined the Service as a temporary lieutenant, Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, and is at present employed at the Admiralty. Mr. Tiarks is a nautral-born British subject or he would not have been eligible for entry in the Royal Navy. He entered His Majesty's Ship "Britannia" as a cadet in 1887, became a midshipman in 1890, and acting sub-lieutenant 1894. He resigned at his own request the same year. His parents also were natural-born British subjects. His wife was born in Germany.

Military Service

Conscientious Objectors

asked the Home Secretary whether Thomas Henry Williams, of Cwmavon, a conscientious objector confined to Shrewsbury civil prison, is being forcibly fed; whether the operation has resulted in physical injuries to Williams, including development of goitre in the neck; and whether steps will be taken to discontinue this treatment?

This prisoner has not been forcibly fed during his present sentence. During a previous sentence he refused his food at Wormwood Scrubs Prison, and it became necessary to feed him forcibly on one occasion, after which he resumed taking his food in the natural way. He has a small goitre, which in the opinion of the medical officer has been there for some years.

asked the Prime Minister whether Councillor W. R. Hughes, of the town council, West Ham, after obtaining exemption as a conscientious objector, was allowed by a Committee acting on behalf of the Government to consider his work of looking after the dependents of alien enemies as work of national importance; what control the Government retain over work of this kind; whether Councillor Hughes is the editor of the "Mansfield House Magazine" and a leader in that settlement; and will he take such steps as may be necessary to have the case reconsidered?

The Prime Minister has asked me to answer this question. The Committee referred to by the hon. Member did recommend that Mr. Hughes be allowed to continue his employment with the Emergency Committee for the assistance of Germans, Austrians, and Hungarians in distress, but the ultimate decision rested with the tribunal. The Committee are aware that Mr. Hughes had been on the staff of the Mansfield House University Settlement, but they have no knowledge whether he was the editor of the "Mansfield House Magazine."

Will the hon. Gentleman reconsider this question if I ask him another question?

I have no competence to reconsider the matter. This Committee was set up. It is purely advisory in character. The ultimate responsibility rests with the Tribunal.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Mr. Hughes is largely co-operating in a work which means the visiting and assisting of British women who, through no fault of their own, have been married to German men?

I do not think that the women in question would agree that it was through no fault of theirs.

Are they not entitled to some assistance, care and support at this time? That is the point.

asked the Prime Minister whether any persons claiming to be conscientious objectors have been granted exemption on the ground that the supervising of boys and the managing boys' clubs is work of national importance; and whether he will take such steps as are necessary to see that no person granted exemption on the ground of conscientious objection is allowed to continue work in connection with the training of young persons?

The Prime Minister has asked me to reply to this question. The Committee on Work of National Importance, which is advisory only, have, in the case of three men with special qualifications, recommended to the tribunal that work of the nature mentioned by my hon. Friend might be regarded as of national importance. I may mention that the ultimate decision as to the acceptance of the Committee's recommendation rests with the tribunal.

To whom should I address a question with regard to that tribunal?

Does the hon. Gentleman think it a good thing at the present time that British boys should be inoculated with the views of conscientious objectors?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he has yet received the report on Private Grey, alleged to have been put in a sack and ducked in a pond?

I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the full statement which I made on the 23rd instant about this man and Brightmore.

asked where the statutory conscientious objector Paul L. Gillan now is; what punishment is he undergoing; how many terms of punishment has he undergone; and what the reason is for punishing him for refusing, in accordance with his legal right, to engage in war?

My hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. Gillan was not exempted from military service by the competent tribunal under the Military Service Acts, and the hon. Member is therefore mistaken in suggesting that he has a legal right to refuse to engage in war. He was sentenced by court-martial on 5th September, 1916, to two years' hard labour. On 7th October, 1916, he was released from prison for employment under the Committee on Employment of Conscientious Objectors. He remained in employment under the Committee until 22nd June, when, as he declined to obey the Committee's rules or to conform to discipline, he was sent back to prison to complete his sentence. He is at present in Plymouth Prison.

On what evidence does the Home Secretary say that this man is not a conscientious objector?

I have not said so. He was not exempted by the tribunal on the ground of his being a conscientious objector.

They said that he was fit to be employed under the Home Office scheme, and he was so employed.

Cases Under Inquiry

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether it is with the knowledge of the War Council that a man named Stephen Pollard, never physically fit for military service and who does not conceal his hostility to England, is being forcibly trained in the Royal Army Medical Corps at Blackpool for foreign service; whether the Council are aware of the determination of which this man has given proof that he will never fight for England; whether the British Army has need of such a man; whether, having regard to the failure of the military authorities by repeated trials and punishments to break down similiar determination of other Irishmen, they propose to repeat their failure in this case, or will release Pollard as they ultimately released the others; and, if not, will he say what they propose to do with Pollard?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if his attention has been called to the case of Private William McGarry, No. 302427, Army Service Corps (Mechanical Transport), Sydenham Depot, London, S.E.; if he is aware that this boy on 20th March last joined the Army at Brunswick Street recruiting office, Dublin, being then only sixteen years old; if he will see that this boy is immediately discharged; and if he will issue instructions that will prevent boys of this age being taken into the Army?

I will inquire into this case, and, if the facts are as stated, the discharge of this soldier will be carried out forthwith. Instructions have been issued to obviate occurrences of this nature.

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he can secure a re-examination by an independent and competent medical tribunal of Abraham Glass, 209, Great Cheetham West, Salford, on the ground of his absolute unfitness for military service, as he has flat feet, hammer toes, and has suffered from heart disease since he was twelve years old, attested by the family doctor; whether he is aware that this man was rejected at Pendleton Town Hall on 6th September, 1916; that he was re-examined at Hulme Town Hall on 11th May, 1917, when he was classified C1; that his appeal on domestic grounds was dismissed; that a second appeal, before the Appeals Tribunal, was dismissed; and that he is now to report on 31st August; and whether a man who can at best only work very intermittently is any source of strength to the Army?

I will inquire into this matter, and inform my hon. Friend as soon as I can.

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he is aware that Oliver Roberts, No. 24576, Royal Warwickshire Regiment, and Henry Goldey, No. 24533, Royal Warwickshire Regiment, were with other conscientious objectors placed, under open arrest in the Albany Barracks, Parkhurst, in separate huts occupied by about thirty soldiers in each hut; that the men there were assaulted, knocked down, and dragged about; that a soldier who protested against such' treatment was ordered by a sergeant to mind his own business, as these people had got to go through it; and if he will cause inquiries to be made?

I am calling for a report in this matter, and will communicate again with my hon. Friend as soon as I am in a position to do so.

asked the Undersecretary of State for War if he is aware that men who are serving in labour battalions in France, and who are in B or C class for military service, are in some cases being re-examined with a view to their transference into combatant units by one doctor only, and not by a medical board; if he is aware that as many as eleven are alleged to have been re-classified as A1 men out of twenty who have passed before the doctor at the rate of not more than one or two minutes per examination; and if he will say whether soldiers who have been reclassified under such circumstances have the right to claim re-examination by a medical board if they believe they have not been properly examined?

It will be necessary to consult the military authorities in France before this question can be answered. I have asked for details, and will let my hon. Friend know as soon as possible.

Members of Parliament (Active Service)

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he will grant the Return standing in the name of the hon. Member for the College Division of Glasgow, dealing with the number of Members of both Houses of Parliament who are serving with the forces?

Earlier in the War a somewhat simpler Return giving some of the information asked for now by my hon. Friend was prepared. It gave the Departments concerned an amount of trouble out of all proportion to the value of the information it contained, and, moreover, the information speedily became out of date. I am afraid, therefore, that I must ask my hon. Friend not to press me to repeat the experiment if only in the interests of a Department, which is already overwhelmed with work vital to the prosecution of the War.

Not at all. If my hon. Friend presses it—which I hope he will not do—I am quite prepared to give this information. To show that it is not because it will not stand investigation, I may point out that we have already given the same sort of Return, but it has entailed an enormous amount of trouble.

The Return was soon out of date and, so far, valueless. The positions and salaries were soon varied.

Will the hon. Gentleman give a Return of the Members of this House of military age who are not serving?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT a copy of the terms of service and the undertaking signed by women who are accepted for certain services with the Army in France?

Yes, Sir.

The following is a copy of the document above referred to:

FORM OF ENROLMENT IN THE WOMEN'S ARMY AUXILIARY CORPS.

No Name (Mrs. or Miss)

(Christian)

Surname

Questions to be put to the Woman on enrolment.

1. What is your name?

2. What is your age?

3. What is your permanent postal address?

You are hereby warned that if after enrolment it is found that you have wilfully given a false answer to any of the following questions, the Army Council or any person duly authorised by them retain the right to terminate any contract that they may have entered into with you.

4. Are both your parents British-born subjects?

5. Do you agree to be enrolled in the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps, and fulfil the rules, regulations and instructions laid down from time to time for this Corps?

6. Are you single, married, or a widow?

7. Have you any dependants?

8. Are you willing to be vaccinated and inoculated?

9. Are you willing to be enrolled for service * ( a ) at home or abroad; or ( b ) at home only?

10. Do you undertake to work wherever the Army Council may require?

11. Do you undertake to serve in the category or grade for which you are selected, or in any other † category or grade to which you may be trans-

* NOTE.—Strike out ( a ) or ( b ).

† Insert here how selected.

Section Category

12. Do you undertake to perform any work which may be required of you by your superior officers?

13. Do you understand that if at any time in breach of this contract of service you:— ( a ) Without lawful excuse absent yourself from any work which it is your duty to perform, or from any place where it is your duty to be; or ( b ) Refuse or wilfully neglect to perform any of your duties; or ( c ) Wilfully impede or delay the due performance of any work on or in connection with which you may be employed; you will render yourself liable on conviction by a Court of summary jurisdiction to be sentenced to imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding six months, or to a fine not exceeding £100, or to both such imprisonment and fine?

14. Do you agree that in the event of your being guilty of any act or neglect in breach of this contract or of any of the rules, regulations, or instructions laid down from time to time for this Corps, you will be liable to a fine:—

On the first occasion of

2s.

6d.

On the second occasion of

5s.

0d.

And on the third and every subsequent occasion, of not exceeding

7s.

6d.?

15. Do you agree that the decision of the Officer Commanding the military formation to which you may from time to time be attached, that you have rendered yourself liable to any such fine shall be final and conclusive, and shall justify the deduction thereof either in one sum or by any instalments from any wages or other sums due or which may become due to you under this contract: Subject only (in the event of your dissatisfaction with any decision of the aforesaid officer) to any appeal in writing to the Army Council which you may within seven days of the decision of the aforesaid officer hand to such officer for transmission; and that in the event of any such appeal the decision of the Army Council that you have rendered yourself liable to any such fine shall be final and conclusive and shall justify the deduction thereof as aforesaid?

16. Do you agree to serve on the terms and conditions contained in this form and in Army Council Instruction, provided His Majesty shall so long require your services, i.e., for a period of twelve months from or for the duration of the war, whichever is the greater period: Provided that your service may be terminated forthwith on ground of misconduct, or breach of conditions, on receipt of notice given by the Army Council, or, that in the event of your services being no longer required, they may be terminated by one week's notice in writing being given to you?

I, do solemnly declare that the above answers made by me to the above questions are true, and I hereby agree to fulfil the engagements made. I have received, read and understand Army Council Instruction which sets forth the conditions of service and rate of pay applicable to me.

Signature of the Woman.

Signature of Witness.

Medical Classification as to fitness of service on enrolment.

Classification

Date 191

Place

Signature of Medical Officer.

Certificate of Approving Officer.

I approve the enrolment of the above-named woman, and appoint her to be employed with the

Date 191

Place

Signature of Approving Officer.

STATEMENT OF THE SERVICES OF

No Name (Mrs. or Miss)

Christian

Surname

Appointed to

Category and Grade.

Place.

Promotions, etc.

Dates.

Signature of Officers certifying correctness of entries.

Total Service Years Months Days. Name and address of next-of-kin Relationship

PARTICULARS AS TO CHILDREN.

Christian Name.

Date.

Place of Birth.

Questions

Aerodromes (Alien Enemies)

asked the Home Secretary whether in the public interest he will consider the advisability of now proclaiming the vicinity of aerodromes as a prohibited area so far as German-born persons are concerned?

I am in consultation with the Admiralty and Army Council as to the desirablity of taking steps under the Aliens Restriction Order for prohibiting any alien enemy from residing in the vicinity of an aerodrome, but such a prohibition (if issued) would affect aliens only, and not British subjects of enemy origin. These persons, if they are suspect, can be removed from any area by order of the naval or military authority under Article 14 of the Defence of the Realm Regulations.

Workers' and Soldiers' Union

asked the Home Secretary whether a meeting of the so-called Workers' and Soldiers' Union is to be held at the Memorial Hall, Farringdon Street, at 3 p.m. next Saturday; whether he is aware that this union sent the telegram to Moscow denouncing the hon. Member for South-West Ham (Mr. W. Thorne) and the hon. Member for East Leeds (Mr. O'Grady) as spies when they were acting as Labour delegates representing this country; whether this meeting is to be attended by a deputation of Leninites who are pro-German Russians, and one of whom (Baum) is now organising resistance to the Bill for compelling aliens of friendly nationality to enlist; and whether, in view of these facts, he will cancel the meeting?

I have at present no evidence which would justify me in prohibiting this meeting, but the police will take steps to deal with any offence against the law which may be committed in connection with it.

Has the right hon. Gentleman got a leaflet issued by this union and does he consider it safe that it should be spread broadcast all over the country?

I do not know whether I have seen the particular leaflet to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers, but I am watching their proceedings.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that four-fifths of the statements in this question are lies? [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"]

I regret that I used the word, and ask leave to withdraw and substitute for it that "four-fifths of the statements in this question are not based upon facts."

On a point of Order. Is the hon. Gentleman permitted to say that the statements in the question are lies? To the best of my belief they are true, or I should not have put them in.

The hon. Member has withdrawn the word and said that they are not based upon facts.

May I ask, in view of the statements made against Mr. Baum, whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that he is a very respectable person and that there is no truth in the allegations here made against him?

Great Central Hotel, Marylebone

asked the Home Secretary at what date Mr. Frick, a Swiss, the manager of the Great Central Hotel, Marylebone, adopted England as his home, and how long has he been employed in the said hotel and been manager of it; whether, in view of the fact that the hotel some time ago ceased to be a hotel and became a convalescent home for British officers and is now a British military hospital, he will explain why it was necessary to continue to have any hotel manager and why the post was not transferred to a British-born subject; will he say to what authority Mr. Frick is now responsible, what are his duties, and what is his annual salary; and are any other neutrals now employed at the said military hospital and how many, or any naturalised Germans or Austrians or enemy aliens and how many?

I am not in possession of the information asked for in the first paragraph of the question; but I am mating inquiries. The rest of the question appears to relate to matters not within my jurisdiction but rather within that of the military authorities.

The last time I was referred by the Secretary of State for War to the Home Office, and now the Home Office refer me to somebody else.

It was then a different question and was one within my province, but this is not.

Will it cease to be within the right hon. Gentleman's jurisdiction when it ceases to be a hotel?

"New Republic."

asked the Home Secretary whether, in regard to the publication entitled the "New Republic," he can state the grounds on which it was suppressed; and whether it is an offence against the law to use the title the "New Republic," or whether an article suggesting any kind of incapacity on the part of the Government is a sufficient cause for the suppression of a paper?

The answer to the first question is that the paper was not suppressed, but one number which was submitted to the Press Bureau was not passed because it appeared to contain matter which contravened the Defence of the Realm Regulations. The answers to the second and third questions are in the negative.

Might I ask if this will be revised by some superior authority on the ground that the cause of the suppression of the paper was its perfectly fair criticism of the Government?

It went far beyond any fair criticism of the Government, and, in my view, it was a breach of the Regulations. I am afraid that there is no superior authority at present.

Redistribution (Glasgow)

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been called to a meeting announced for Monday, 30th instant, in the County Buildings, Glasgow, for the purposes of hearing objections to the proposed constitution of the Parliamentary divisions of the Parliamentary burgh of Glasgow; if so, is he aware that a general desire exists that longer notice of such a meeting should be given; and will he, in view of the fact that the official map of the proposed divisions arrived only on Monday, see that a further delay for consideration and objection, if need be, is given to the citizens?

I understand that the Boundary Commission has intimated to the Sheriff who is holding the inquiry in Glasgow that, if it is found at the end of the day appointed for the inquiry that further time is necessary for the adequate investigation of any objections or counter proposals which may be put forward, he should adjourn the inquiry for a few days.

Sale of Liquor (Scotland)

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether the Corporation of Glasgow has decided to take a plebiscite of the citizens on the question of prohibition during the War; and whether, in the event of its being found practicable to do this in Glasgow, he will consider the desirability of taking similar steps in other large centres of population in Scotland?

I am aware of the decision of the Corporation. As regards the second part of my hon. Friend's question, I have no authority to take steps in the direction suggested.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that they do many things in Glasgow that many other people cannot do?

London County Hall

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government have taken into consideration the advisability of taking over and completing the London County Council buildings on the river front, instead of utilising tradesmen in erecting new buildings of a temporary character on all the parks of London and of taking over fresh hotels and clubs?

The desirability of taking over and completing portions of the London County Council New County Hall has been under the consideration of my Department ever since the needs of the public service have been so urgent owing to the War, but the essential factor of time and the difficulties connected with the supply of labour and material have so far rendered the scheme impracticable. At a meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Accommodation early this month it was decided to make a further effort to arrange for the completion of portions of the building. One of the serious difficulties is the supply of the necessary timber, as to which they are in communication with the Director of Timber Supplies.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this building is now being used for exhibition purposes and has proved quite weather-proof, and has he inspected it to see whether it could not be used as a good building instead of some of his temporary structures?

A temporary exhibition is a very different thing from providing permanent accommodation. The hon. Member, perhaps, is not aware that there is no provision whatever for heating the building, and that it would be a very large, complicated, and costly undertaking, which must be carried out before the building could be used for offices in the winter.

Ministry of Health

asked the Prime Minister if it is the intention of the Government to introduce into Parliament the proposed Bill for the Ministry of Health before the House rises for the Recess.

It is not intended to introduce a Bill on this subject before the House adjourns.

Industrial Unrest Commission

Insurance Agents

asked the Prime Minister if he has considered the Report of the Commissioners of the north-west area, which was submitted on the 16th instant, with reference to the claims of the insurance agents which were placed before the Industrial Unrest Committee in Manchester; and if he will state the recommendations of the Industrial Unrest Committee so far as it applies to insurance agents?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. The recommendation of the Commissioners as regards insurance agents is as follows:

"We think the Government, either by legislation or moral influence, should compel an inquiry into their conditions of work, or an arbitration upon their complaints by the Industrial Commissioner."

The Minister of Labour is considering what steps can be taken to give effect to the recommendation of the Commissioners.

May I ask the Leader of the House if he has received a copy of a letter which was issued by the manager of the Prudential Company to their agents, in which they offered a reward on the condition that they raised an agitation to have the Courts (Emergency Powers) Act repealed, and will he take any steps to deal with that?

Munition Workers

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the statement officially made and widely circulated that men in very large numbers were refusing to work at munitions on account of being unable to get sufficient beer, he will arrange that the findings of the Commission on Labour Unrest are as widely published and promulgated as possible so as to remove the slur that has been cast on the labouring classes of the country?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. The Reports for each area are being separately printed, and he understands that copies will probably be placed on sale at a low price next week. He has no doubt that wide publicity will be given by the Press to the findings of the Commissioners.

Is it not a fact that this statement has caused great dissatisfaction and that the working people have a real grievance?

That is a matter of opinion. I do not quite know what statement the hon. and gallant Member means.

The statement that owing to the lack of beer these people are not working in munition factories, which was made by the Home Secretary in this House.

Will the hon. Gentleman take steps to prevent this state- ment going forth, because it is causing enormous dissatisfaction among the working people?

Members Refusing to Take Their Seats (Salaries)

asked the Prime Minister whether salaries are paid to elected Members of this House who refuse to take their seats; and, if so, whether, in view of the urgency for national economy, the Government will stop any salary being paid to such Members?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative; the second part does not, therefore, arise.

Questions

Russia (Passports)

asked the Prime Minister whether applications for passports to Russia were made by Miss M. Bondfield, Mrs. Pethick Lawrence, Mrs. Despard, and Mrs. Philip Snowden, and that the object of the projected visit was to congratulate and confer with the Russian Council of Women; those applications having been refused, what reasons can be given for the refusal; and whether Mrs. Pankhurst, who has been allowed to go to Russia, received a request to go from any representative body of Russian women or went at his special desire?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. His Majesty's Government were unable to grant the applications as there did not seem sufficient grounds for making exceptions to the general rules on the subject. I have no information as to the last part of the question.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Mrs. Pankhurst's organ still continues to attack most rabidly Lord Hardinge, our former Ambassador in Petrograd, and was it for this reason that Mrs. Pankhurst was especially sent to Petrograd?

I hardly think that is the reason, although I am sure it will seem a sufficient one to the hon. Gentleman.

Is the right hon. Gentleman in a position to state what Mrs. Pankhurst's visit will cost the State?

Public Service

Men of German Extraction

asked the Prime Minister whether inquiry will be made into the case of a telegraphist named Rupp, who is a son of a German father and a German mother, now being employed at the Threadneedle Street Post Office, with a view to immediate action being taken.

There appears to be some misapprehension in this matter. Mr. Rupp's parents came to this country in 1866, and he himself is a natural-born British subject. My right hon. Friend was under a misapprehension when he stated that Mr. Rupp was naturalised. He is not known to entertain or to have expressed any sympathy with the enemies of this country. His statement to the tribunal which heard his case was merely that, in view of his parentage, he could not conscientiously take up arms against Germany, but he was willing to undertake non-combatant service. In all the circumstances, however, I have arranged for him to be released for military service.

Are we to understand that special exception is granted to this gentleman by the Post Office which is not granted to other conscientious objectors belonging to religious denominations?

Munitions

Receiving Depot for Ireland

asked the Prime Minister if he has received a report on the subject of a receiving depot for Ireland from the Director of the Ministry of Munitions in Dublin; and, if so, will he take the necessary steps to have the report published?

Am I to understand, when the right hon. Gentleman says in the negative, that such a report has not been received?

Juvenile Workers' Educational Classes

asked the Minister of Munitions (1) whether his attention has been called to the educational classes at Woolwich at the national expense for the boys employed at the Arsenal at the close of the Crimean war; whether arrangements will be made for the instituting of similar classes for the juvenile workers in the national munitions workshops at the conclusion of hostilities in the present war; and (2) whether he is taking steps to provide for special classes at the conclusion of the War for boys and girls in munitions workshops whose education has been interrupted in consequence of the stress of work during the War; and whether preparations will be made, in conjunction with the President of the Board of Education, for both technical and other classes for juvenile workers before they are turned adrift into the labour market?

The hon. Member's suggestion will be carefully considered in consultation with the President of the Board of Education.

Workers' Holidays

asked the Minister of Munitions, if it is proposed to give a free railway pass to their homes for those munition workers who have left home and are living near their factory so that they may take full advantage of the short holiday to be granted them; and if any special holidays of any longer time will be granted the girls who are engaged in the work of handling the materials which are poisonous and damaging to their health and appearance?

As regards the first part of the question, I am in communication with my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, as to whether it is practicable to provide tickets at reduced rates to enable munition workers, who are living away, to visit their homes during the holidays. With regard to the second part, the holidays in the national factories have been fixed with due regard to the considerations mentioned by my hon. Friend.

Would it not be possible to give these people free passes, not reduced rates, so as to enable them to get a fair holiday at the end of August?

That is very desirable if it could be done, but it is not practicable.

Lead Exports

asked how many tons of lead have been exported during the present year from Great Britain under licences granted by the War Trade Department excluding all the lead and lead manufactures exported to our Allies for War purposes and to our Colonies and dependencies for urgent national needs?

The reply is 1,100 tons. The greater portion of this amount was employed in the packing of tea, the remainder being distributed in small quantities for the upkeep of factories and industries in different parts of the world that are supplying food and other essential products to Great Britain.

Time-Recording

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions whether his attention has been called to a letter addressed to the Minister of Munitions, signed H. Hetherington, and the copy of correspondence enclosed therewith, in which it is stated that at a certain national shell factory named in the correspondence a notice is affixed near the time-recording machine which states that failure to record the time of starting and leaving work by means of the time-record- ing machine on the part of any person employed at the factory will entail forfeiture of the time worked by such person, and, further, that the terms of this notice are strictly carried into effect in all cases, notwithstanding that the failure to record is frequently purely accidental and it is not disputed that the time forfeited has actually been worked; whether he is aware that, although it is contended that workpeople engaged at the factory are unable to recover wages for unrecorded time worked because it is held by the Courts that exhibition of the notice referred to and the continuance at work of the persons employed at the factory after the notice was posted makes the terms of the notice legally binding as a contract between the workpeople and the employers, notwithstanding that the notice was affixed after most of the persons at present employed in the factory began to work there, and also notwithstanding the fact that their freedom to leave and go to work elsewhere is restricted by the Munitions Acts; and if, having regard to the injustice involved in withholding wages for time known to have been worked and to the fact that other factories in the district to which the aggrieved workpeople could freely transfer their services if they were not restricted from doing so by the Munitions Acts do not refuse to pay wages for time worked under similar circumstances, he will take steps to remove this cause of discontent at the national shell factory mentioned in the correspondence?

My attention has been called to this matter, and I am in communication with the Board of Management of the National Shell Factory concerned. I will inform my hon. Friend what arrangement is arrived at.

Ammunition Boxes

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions whether he is aware that responsible officials in the Ministry of Munitions recently informed a deputation of Irish manufacturers of ammunition boxes that no further boxes are required from Ireland, but only Irish timber; that this statement is causing uneasiness amongst carpenters and joiners in Ireland, in view of the fact that they may be thrown out of employment owing to the restrictions in the building trade; and whether he will take steps to secure a fair share of this class of work for Ireland?

The hon. Member appears to be misinformed. There is at present no intention of reducing the number of ammunition boxes made in Ireland provided the manufacturers agree to satisfactory prices and are prepared to provide drying kilns to permit of home-grown timber being used instead of imported timber. Tenders on the above lines are being invited. In addition to ammunition boxes the Ministry are prepared to negotiate for the purchase of case boards made out of home-grown timber.

Questions

Dardanelles Commission

asked the Prime Minister when the second Dardanelles Commission Report is likely to be received; and whether, in view of the national interest involved, he will consider the advisability of refraining from publishing any more Reports of Commissions of inquiry into the conduct of military operations until the conclusion of the War; and whether he is aware of any Report having been published by the German Government of the result of their inquiries into their failure to attain their military objectives on many occasions?

I am informed that it is not possible to state when the second Report will be received. The second part of the question will be considered by the Government. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.

Photographs to America (Postage)

asked the Postmaster-General whether the sending by post of photographs of individuals from Ireland to their friends in the United States of America is now prohibited; and, if so, whether he will consider if this restriction can be removed?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative and the second part therefore does not arise.

Horse Racing (Telegrams)

asked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to the increase in tele- graphic traffic caused by the resumption of horse-racing; and whether, in order to reduce the pressure on his staff and the growing delay in all classes of traffic, he will put some restriction upon the use of the telegraphic system for such purposes, or appeal to the public not to send telegrams except in cases of real urgency?

No special telegraphic facilities are now being given in connection with horse-racing, and the number of telegrams relating to such matters is very small as compared with the number sent before the War. I have no power to discriminate between different classes of telegrams according to the subjects to which they relate. The increased charge and the delay to which telegrams are now often subject have made the public aware of the difficult conditions under which the service has to be conducted owing to the withdrawal of staff for naval and military service, and I do not think that the senders of betting or similar telegrams would be affected by an appeal from the Post Office.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make some inquiries with a view to reducing the enormous amount of overtime worked by these telegraphists, which has led to considerable sickness?

If my hon. Friend will put down a question I will have inquiries made.

King's Shropshire Light Infantry (Postal Delivery)

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that there are nine large sacks of letters for the l/4th Battalion King's Shropshire Light Infantry, now lying in the Territorial offices at Shrewsbury, having been returned from the General Post Office, London; and whether he can give any reason why the letters have not been forwarded?

I am making inquiry in the matter, and will communicate the result to the hon. Member.

Peace Terms (Sir E. Carson's Belfast Speech)

asked the Prime Minister whether he has noted the speech of the right hon. Member for Dublin University at Belfast last Friday and the then stated placing of a German withdrawal beyond the Rhine as a condition precedent to making terms with the enemy; and whether this speech expresses in this respect the policy of this country and her Allies?

My right hon. Friend's speech was in effect a declaration that, if Germany desired peace, her first step should be to declare her readiness to evacuate the territory which she had invaded—a declaration with which the Government is in entire agreement.

Is the right hon. Gentleman (Sir E. Carson) aware that both banks of the Rhine for a considerable distance belong to Germany, are her territory and are not occupied enemy territory?

Spain (German Propaganda)

asked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Government are aware that one of the favourite devices of German propaganda in Spain is to allege that Great Britain is using pressure to induce Spain to abandon her neutrality; and whether the Government will take steps to contradict this allegation?

Yes, Sir, I am aware of the facts stated in the first part of the question. I will certainly consider what further steps can be taken in the direction suggested. In the meantime, perhaps, I may take this opportunity of saying publicly that there is no truth whatever in the allegation. His Majesty's Government value very highly the friendship of Spain, and the closer it is the more highly they will value it. But the Spanish Government must be the sole judges of the attitude that Spain should take towards the War, and His Majesty's Government have not in the past exerted, and will not in the future exert, pressure on the Spanish Government to deviate from the course which they think best in the interests of their country.

Is it not a fact that the pro-German party in Spain is the camarilla surrounding the King, in accordance with the trade union of Kings which is strangling Europe?

Air Service

Aeroplane Manufacture (Silver Spruce)

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware that large manufacturers of aeroplanes in Great Britain absolutely refuse to use any of the Government's stock of silver spruce, on the ground that it is for the most part rubbish; whether he is aware that only a few days ago a parcel of silver spruce from Government stocks was examined by the foreman of a big Midland aeroplane builder, of which only 20 per cent. was found suitable and the balance was returned; and can he say who is responsible for passing inferior wood?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. It is true that a large proportion of a parcel of silver spruce from Government stock was found unsuitable, and that the balance was returned. This was due to the fact that the timber had been dispatched before the present system of inspection was instituted.

Was the order given by the Ministry of Munitions, the Admiralty, or Mr. Meyer?

Royal Flying Corps (Leave)

asked the Parliamentary Representative of the Air Board whether a Regulation will be issued or some arrangement made dealing with the officers and men of the Flying Corps who have just undergone their training and are ready to be sent abroad for service, whereby a rest of four, seven, or fourteen days would be given to each man before being sent abroad, so that he might have an opportunity by recuperating his health of becoming of more efficient service when sent to the various fronts?

It is not always possible in view of the exigencies of the service to give pilots four days' leave just prior to their proceeding overseas. But to ensure pilots not proceeding to the front without leave it is given to them, as far as possible, during their training—generally four days. The arrangements as regards men is that they are given at least four days' leave when the exigencies of the service permit.

Is it not the opinion of the Department that these men would do better service when they arrive out there if they were allowed leave?

Yes, I think so. But, as I stated, it is not always possible for us to give it, however anxious we may be to give it.

Questions

Chinese Labour (Smethwick)

asked the Minister of Labour whether he can now state the result of his inquiries into the employment of Chinese labour in Smethwick and district which is causing dissatisfaction amongst the workpeople there and is likely to lead to trouble if no steps are taken to stop the practice?

As the Minister of Labour has already informed my hon. Friend, he has ascertained that some fifteen Chinese workmen are employed by two firms at Smethwick. The Ministry of Munitions have suggested, and the Minister has agreed, that these Chinamen should be replaced by British labour as soon as suitable substitutes can be obtained. He is taking steps which will, I hope, result in the supply of substitutes without delay.

Irish Workmen, Manchester

asked the Minister of Labour if his attention has been drawn to the boycott of Irish labour in Manchester; if the Government will consider the advisability of spending in Ireland a little of the thirty million taxes collected in Ireland for the purposes of carrying on the War; if he is aware that the 200 Irishmen who were refused work last week in Man- chester were victims of Government restrictions in Ireland; if he will see that those responsible for the boycott are informed that these Irishmen are entitled without compliment to employment; and if he will see that in future taxes collected in Ireland will be spent in Ireland, instead of in Manchester or any other part of Great Britain?

The Minister of Labour is aware of the incident referred to by the hon. Member whereby a number of Irishmen brought over to work in this country were sent back to Ireland owing to difficulties which had occurred with the English workpeople employed in the same establishment. He understands that the men were paid their fares both ways and received a week's wages. He regrets that it should have been necessary to return these men to Ireland, but he is not aware that their unemployment is due to Government restrictions in Ireland. The Ministry of Labour is not responsible for the matters referred to in the other parts of the hon. Member's question.

Can you not recommend the munition factories in Ireland to give these men employment, without their having to come over to this country to get employment?

War Losses Commission (Mrs. Tewsley's Claim)

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether the case of Mrs. Tewsley, of the Eagle Hotel, Dornock, which was argued before the Losses Commission on 8th December last, has yet been reported on; and, if so, has the sum awarded been paid by the Treasury?

The Defence of the Realm (Losses) Commission have reported to the Treasury that in their view the claim referred to in the question is outside the scope of the Commission.

German Prisoners (Employment)

asked the hon. Member for Sheffield (Central Division) (1) the number of German prisoners who are now employed in this country on agriculture and in other industries; if any German officers are employed in any capacity in this country; (2) whether he can state the number of German prisoners now held by us in this country; and can he state if any prisoners are retained in Belgium and France in charge of the British forces; and, if so, what is the number?

There are, according to the latest returns, 44,018 German combatant prisoners of war held by us in France and Belgium, and 40,234 in this country. Of the latter there are some 23,620 employed in various occupations and 2,590 more awaiting employment as soon as accommodation can be found for them. The balance is almost entirely made up of prisoners who, for different reasons, cannot be employed—of officers, non-commissioned officers, sick, wounded, and unfit.

Can the hon. Gentleman give the number employed in France or is it only in this country?

National Service Ministry (Expenditure)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of National Service what is the total expenditure of the Ministry of National Service up to date?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave on the 16th July. It is therein stated that the expenditure of the National Service Department up to the 11th instant was £163,118 5s. 3d., and of this £87,491 12s. 3d. was spent on advertising under the original scheme of National Service.

Can the hon. Gentleman say when this Department is going to get something to do in return for the money?

Royal Military College, Woolwich (Cadet Nominations)

asked what public schools were asked to nominate cadets for the Royal Military College, Woolwich, who had not been successful in the last competitive examination; and the names of the schools to which fifteen such nominations were given?

I assume that my hon. Friend refers to the candidates admitted by nomination for the March entry, which was the result of the examination in November, 1916. The fifteen candidates were nominated on the recommendation of the head masters of the following schools: Eton 6, Dulwich 2, and Shrewsbury, Oundle, Malvern, Wellington, Winchester, Harrow, Westminster, 1 each. The conditions which must be fulfilled by a candidate are given in paragraph 27 of the Provisional Regulations for admission to the Royal Military Academy.

As I intended to convey in the answer which I gave the other day, the whole question of nomination depends largely on whether a public school before the War had an officers' training corps.

Is it not the case that many Scottish schools have made such nominations which have been accepted by the Board of Inspection?

I believe that that is so. My hon. Friend, who is a member of the Board of Inspection, is familiar with their work.

Palestine Expeditionary Force (Food)

asked whether any complaints have been received from parents of soldiers serving with the British forces in Palestine in regard to the poorness of the food supplied to the men of the Expeditionary Force as compared with what the soldiers in France are receiving; and whether it is possible to introduce more variety into the rations of the men in Palestine?

No, Sir, I have received no such complaints, but inquiries are being made to see whether it is possible to introduce more variety into the scale of rations in Palestine.

Central and East Africa (Medical Arrangements)

asked the Undersecretary of State for War if he can give the House an assurance that the medical arrangements and supplies for our sick and wounded in Central and East Africa are in every way satisfactory; whether there is a shortage not only in personnel but in equipment and in drugs; whether the number of men down with dysentery is out of all proportion to the forces engaged; and whether he will take immediate steps to ensure that nothing is lacking for the care of our sick and wounded?

We have had a demand lately for an increase of the monthly reserves of personnel, and are meeting it. We know of no shortage of equipment or drugs and can fully meet all demands, but a recent cable asks for expedition in supply.

Narongombe (Attack by British Forces)

asked the Undersecretary of State for War if he is in a position to give the House additional particulars to those which have already been issued to the Press of the attack made on 19th July by the British forces on Narongombe, in East Africa; and whether he can say that the attack was entirely successful?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the communiqué which appeared in the Press this morning.

German Officer Prisoners (Escape)

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he is now in a position to offer any explanation of the circumstances surrounding the escape in civilian clothes of three interned German officers from Donington Hall?

I am informed that the proceedings of the Court of Inquiry have just reached the War Office. If the right hon. Member will repeat his question in a few days time I shall be in a position to reply.

Land Purchase (Ireland)

asked what progress the Congested Districts Board has made in the negotiations for the purchase of the Thompson Estate, Armaghbrague, county Armagh; and whether, having regard to the dissatisaction existing among the tenants at the unnecessary delay in the completion of the negotiations, he will see that the Board take all necessary steps, whether by compulsion or otherwise, to expedite the purchase of this estate?

The Estates Commissioners, after an inspection of the lands referred to, furnished the owner with an estimate of price in Guaranteed Three per Cent. Stock which they would be prepared to offer, provided formal proceedings for purchase were instituted under the Irish Land Acts. No proceedings have been instituted so far, and the Commissioners are not prepared to take any further action in the matter at present.

Old Age Pensions

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board whether pension officers have been instructed to take no account of increases in the income of existing old age pensioners in cases where the increases are due to separation allowance of soldier sons; and, if so, whether he will inquire into the case numbered 898, of 1916, on the pension officers' register, of Bradford (No. 2) District, Girlington Station, with the object of correcting a breach of these instructions?

As regards the first part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to him by my predecessor on the 1st August last. As regards the second part, I am making inquiry into the case mentioned and will communicate with him about it.

Female Sorters and Telegraphists (Cork)

asked the Postmaster-General how many young ladies passed the limited examination for female sorters and telegraphists at Cork in June, 1915; how many vacancies were then offered; how many of those who qualified or parsed the examination have since been offered appointments; and will the others who qualified or passed the said examination be offered appointments in consequence of the large number of male sorters and telegraphists who have left the service for Army duties; and, in view of the fact that the young ladies who have qualified have spent many years in the service of the Post Office, he will consider the advisability of giving them appointments before holding any further open competitive examinations for female learners?

Fifteen candidates obtained qualifying marks. At the time of the examination there was one vacancy. Since then seven other candidates have received appointments. No further direct appointments to the class of sorting clerks and telegraphists are being made at the present time, as no vacancies are available, and the examination of 1915 is regarded as closed. A fresh competition will be held, when required.

New Writ (Kilkenny City)

Suspension of Mr. Ginnell

I beg to move "That Mr. Speaker do issue his warrant to the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland to make out a New Writ for the election of a Member to serve in the present Parliament for the City of Kilkenny in the room of Patrick O'Brien, Esquire, deceased."

As I have informed the hon. Member, the usual custom is that a New Writ should be moved by an hon. Member belonging to the party of which the deceased Member also formed one. I have received intimation that the writ will be moved for on Monday, and perhaps the hon. Member will not think it worth while to proceed to-day.

Yes, on the ground of principle I beg to adhere to my Motion, because I respectfully submit that you have no constitutional authority whatever for refusing to issue your warrant for the election of a Member to serve in Parliament. Furthermore, political parties have no constitutional existence, and it would be much better for the dignity of this House, or what remains of it, and for the dignity of the Chair, if party arrangements were wholly disregarded. Your action now, whether so intended or not, is taking sides between parties in Ireland.

I beg the hon. Member's pardon. My action is entirely in compliance with the almost immemorial custom of this House.

I said whether you intended it or not. It is taking sides in a controversy in Ireland. It may suit parties to delay indefinitely the issue of a Writ, and nobody has any right whatever to go into the question of when a Writ is to be demanded for this vacancy. I rise in pursuance of my constitutional right as a Member of this House to move for this Writ, and I put upon whoever chooses to take it the odium of refusing it.

I rise to move "That the Debate be now adjourned." I do so in order that this House may have an opportunity of upholding the invariable rule followed by this House. For many years the House has always in matters of this kind left it to the officials of the party to which the late Member belonged to move the Writ for the vacancy which has been caused. Every attempt which has been made during the years in which I have been in this House to have that Writ moved by a member of another party has always been on the ground of delay. When I remind the House that it is not yet a fortnight since the late Member for Kilkenny died, I do not think that the party can be accused of delay. I do not think that this party can be accused of delay, especially as you have already announced, Sir, that you have been officially informed that it was intended to move the writ on Monday. I do not intend to delay the matter any further, but I do ask the House to recognise the rule that it is for the party Whips to move the writ for the seat which belonged to that party.

Question, "That the Debate be now adjourned," put, and agreed to.

Debate to be resumed upon Monday next.

I have another matter to bring under your notice—an entirely different matter. Yesterday, in my absence, you accepted responsibility for certain action which, in its development at all event involved the greatest possible breach of the privilees of this House. This is the matter I have now to bring under your notice: You accepted responsibility for certain action which, in its development in the London Press this morning, would, if it were possible to take action outside this House, expose you to an action for criminal libel. It involves two things of capital importance to me and to some Members of the House who are now laughing as they laughed on the 3rd May, 1916. [HON. MEMBERS: "It is a lie!"] It involves a plot by the present members of the Government to have a crime committed in one of the Galleries of the House, and then to attribute that crime to me and my friends in Ireland. [Interruption.] I want to deal with the matter as faithfully as possible. Be quiet! Secondly, it involves danger to my life in coming to the House. I will endeavour to explain. The Government by the use of Secret Service money—

If the hon. Member has some point of Order to raise he is entitled to raise it, but he is not entitled to make a speech at large.

I am entitled to speak, I am sure, on a matter of privilege involving human life. It is not a point of Order at all.

I am coming to it. You assured the House yesterday that you had information from a very authoritative source that there was likely to be some illegal and improper demonstration in the Gallery, accompanied possibly by physical violence. This physical violence would involve human life. This is developed in the London Press to-day as "Sinn Fein by Force." My name is brought into it as the object of this demonstration in the Gallery. Of the plot of the Government, in which you, Sir, I hope unconsciously, made yourself an accomplice—of the plot of the Government I was informed last Saturday in Dublin, and I was warned not to come from Dublin alone, because there was a plot against my life. That warning came from the Government, through a friendly source. The plot of the Government was, as they have been long accustomed to do in Ireland, to plant criminals in the Secret Service in one of the Galleries, and to commit the act of which you say that you had authoritative information. I ask you as a matter of common justice to give the House now your authoritative information, and I also ask that these secret servants of the Government be brought to the Bar, and required to account for themselves. Had I been here yesterday I should have insisted upon these secret servants being brought to the House and searched. I am absolutely confident that there would have been found on their persons, if on any human being, bombs or other objectionable articles—the very articles, whatever they may be, of which you had authoritative information. The object was to discredit the new organisation in Ireland which is sweeping the Members of this House from Ireland out of their seats. The whole plot was one primarily of assassination in this House to assassinate somebody, not caring apparently whom, and then, by the help of Secret Service money and the Press of this country, to fix that crime upon this new political organisation. The "Daily News" of this morning represents me as in some way connected with this contemplated crime of which you had authoritative information. What is the authoritative information? I challenge you, Sir, and I challenge the House, to prove that that is not a fabrication; I challenge you, Sir, to show that you were not yesterday made the medium of a callous, criminal libel—a dangerous one, too, which would have led not only to the murder of some Members of the House, but possibly, very probably, to the murder of me. [Laughter.] This unseemly laughter induces me to support what I have said. Here is a letter which I can submit to you, Sir, or to any decent Member of the House, saying:

At an earlier date I received other communications. I do not want the House to be alarmed—I will not read them all. I will read the points in them in support of the statement of danger to my life. I am absolutely certain that my life is in danger in this country. I am not a particle afraid of that in the ordinary sense, because if my life is to be taken in this connection my death will be a death for Ireland, and that is the reason I do not fear. But that it is in danger I am absolutely certain. At an earlier date—this is twelve months ago—I received this:

The hon. Member is reading what seem to be abusive letters which he has received, and which every one of us has received. I think I may say I have received quite as many as the hon. Member, but I do not proceed to read them here. What is the point which the hon. Member wishes to raise?

I have explained that I do not complain either. But that assassination awaits me, I am certain. You say you have authoritative information that it does.

Here is a letter with a name to it, place and date and all, signed by George Trevelyan, Travellers' Club:

"Let me tell you the nation will not stand much more of your scandalous whining. You are a Sinn Feiner yourself and deserve to be shot. You and your low crew can look forward to a very unpleasant reckoning."

This Trevelyan, whoever he is—

That has got nothing whatever to do with the House, and we must now pass to the business of the day.

Very well. I will resume my seat after a personal explanation. I accuse the Government of a plot.

If the hon. Member will not resume his seat, I shall have to ask him to retire from the House.

I will resume my seat if you allow me one sentence of personal explanation.

If the hon. Member will not behave in an orderly way, I shall have to ask him to retire.

I ask the hon. Member to retire from the House, and if he does not do so I shall name him.

I beg to move, "That Mr. Ginnell be suspended from the service of the House."

Question, "That Mr. Ginnell be suspended from the service of the House," put, and agreed to.

The hon. Member must retire from the House, in accordance with the decision of the House.

I will retire, but I think it would be more to the dignity of the House—[Interruption.]

approached the hon. Member to carry out the instruction of Mr. Speaker.

Everybody in the House is excited but myself. Even you, Mr. Speaker, are excited. Of course, I will leave, as I said; I will go anywhere I like. [Interruption] You are afraid. [Interruption.] You are guilty of murder, and you are an accomplice. [Interruption.]

( standing before the Mace on the, Table ): Mr. Speaker, when I gave the hon. Member your order, he said that he would leave the House, but apparently he does not intend to do so.

I shall suspend the Sitting until the hon. Member has been removed.

Sitting suspended under Standing Order No. 21.

The hon. Member was removed accordingly,

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair.

Message from the Lords

That they have agreed to,—

Finance Bill,

Local Government (Allotments and Land Cultivation) (Ireland) Bill,

Land Drainage (Ewerby) Provisional Order Bill,

Land Drainage (Swaffham) Provisional Order Bill,

Electric Lighting Provisional Orders Bill,

Gas and Water Provisional Orders Bill,

Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders Bill,

Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 2) Bill, without amendment.

Land Drainage (Wistow) Provisional Order Bill,

Port of London Authority (Various Powers) Bill,

Chepstow Water Bill,

Sheffield United Gaslight Company Bill,

Sheffield Corporation Bill,

South Eastern and London, Chatham, and Dover Railways Bill, with Amendments.

That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to dissolve the marriage of Lilian Margaret Aurora Parker, of 191, Lauder-dale Mansions, Maida Vale, London, with James Matthew Marmaduke Parker, her husband, and to enable her to marry again; and for other purposes." [Parker's Divorce Bill [ Lords. ]

Land Drainage (Wistow) Provisional Order Bill

Lords Amendments to be considered To-morrow.

Parker's Divorce Bill [Lords]

Read the first time; to be read a second time.

Orders of the Day

Business of the House

Perhaps my right hon. Friend would let me know what will be the business for next week?

On Monday, we propose to take the Third Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill.

On Tuesday and Wednesday, the Committee stage of the Corn Production Bill.

On Thursday, we will take the ordinary Motion in regard to Supply, when I hope to be able to state the business which it is proposed to take before the Adjournment.

Perhaps the House will allow me to state the business for Friday, next week?

I expect that we shall be able to take them before the Adjournment—probably the week after next.

Ordered, "That the Proceedings on the Consolidated Fund (No. 4) Bill have precedence this day of the Business of Supply."—[ Mr. Bonar Law. ]

Resolved, "That this House do sit Tomorrow."—[ Mr. Bonar Law. ]

Consolidated Fund (No. 4) Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

I beg to move, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, and to insert instead thereof the words,

"in view of the resolution passed by the representatives of the German people assembled in the Reichstag to the effect that, putting aside the thought of acquisition of territory by force, the Reichstag is striving for a peace of understanding and lasting reconciliation of nations, that with such a peace political, economic, and financial usurpation are incompatible, and that the Reichstag repudiates all plans which aim at the economic isolation and tying down of nations after the War. this House declares that this statement expresses the principles for which this country has stood throughout and calls upon the Government, in conjunction with the Allies, to re-state their peace terms accordingly; and further it declares that the Allies should accept the Russian proposal that the forthcoming Allied conference on war aims shall comprise representatives of the peoples and not solely spokesmen of the Governments."

I must begin by regretting the circumstances under which this Motion has to be debated. To move an Amendment to the Consolidated Fund Bill is, of course, to adopt a procedure which the Government cannot for a moment countenance. It is quite impossible for the Government to accept the Resolution which I am proposing, because it would involve the defeat of the Consolidated Fund Bill. We attempted to avoid that, because we felt that the passing of the Resolution by the German Reichstag was a very important event, and we approached the Leader of the House asking whether it would be possible to get a day for this discussion. We do not complain for a single moment that the right hon. Gentleman was unwilling to give us a day, but, as he will readily admit, and the House will equally readily see, that meant that the only opportunity of raising this question was to-day, so we had to do, with the full knowledge of the limitation of our opportunity.

The hon. Member knows perfectly well he is not included in the "we." If he looks at the Order Paper it is perfectly plain whom "we" means, and I have no desire to give any honour to those who do not wish to share it. The right hon. Gentleman quite properly said that it was impossible to give a day, and we have to discuss this question under the limitations of the Rule3 and Orders of the House. But I would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to make such a statement regarding this Resolution passed by the Reichstag as will show our Allies and the enemy, at any rate, in so far as that statement is in accordance with the declared purposes of this War, this Government accepts it. I think if the right hon. Gentleman goes so far as that he will find that substantially, on the whole, the Resolution gives very good expression to those purposes. What is the Resolution? I must say that it is very extraordinary that this important declaration on the part of the Reichstag has hardly found a place in the English newspapers. One afternoon, about three o'clock, certain evening newspapers appeared with this Resolution in a prominent position. The same papers, I believe, a little later on, at least so I am informed, had relegated the Resolution to a very obscure corner in their columns. It is a most extraordinary thing, going about discussing with people who are taking a very intelligent interest in the War, to find that a very considerable percentage of them never knew that this Resolution had been passed. I would, therefore, read the Resolution to the House. It runs as follows:

"On the threshold of the fourth year of the War, the Reichstag declares, as on 4th August, 1914, the validity of the motto remains: 'No desire for conquest impels us.' For the defence of its freedom and independence, and integrity of its territory, Germany took up arms."

That is the ordinary thing that a nation would say. I mean to say that we take that for granted, and there is no use in boggling over it. But that is not the reason why I bring this Resolution before the House. I am sure hon. Members who profoundly disagree from me will realise that. I now really come to the point which is the point of interest:

"Declining all thoughts of the forcible acquisition of territory, the Reichstag strives for a peace by agreement, and a permanent reconciliation of nations. With such a peace, political, economic, and financial oppression are incompatible. The Reichstag equally rejects all plans which aims at economic exclusion and enmity between peoples after the War. Only such an economic peace, with freedom of the seas, will after the conclusion of the War prepare the ground for a permanent friendly community of life between nations. Led by these considerations and aims,' the Reichstag will energetically further the creating of international organisations for the promotion of international law. So long, however, as the hostile Governments reject such a peace and threaten Germany and its Allies with conquest and violent oppression, the German people is determined unshakenly to stand together and endure for the defence of its own and its Allies' right to live and develop. The German people know that in unity and defence it is invincible,"

The middle part of the Resolution is the substantial part. That is the Resolution that we have embodied in the Amend- ment to this Motion on the Second Reading of the Bill. I hope the Government is going closely to consider that Resolution. Of course, the first thought that comes into everybody's mind is: "What body passed this Resolution? It is the Reichstag, and the Reichstag is not Parliament. It does not control the appointment of Imperial Ministers. It has no direct responsibility for the policy of the country." That is perfectly true. That is one of the lamentable shortcomings of the German Constitution at the present time which makes it so difficult for any country to enter into direct relations with the German people or to come to agreement with the German people. I hope that one of the results of the War will be that that will be a fact of the past. Nevertheless, I admit it. That is one of the difficulties whenever peace comes, whether after military victory or in any other event, that is one of the most tremendous difficulties that this Government and the Allies will have to face—the difficulty of not being able to deal directly with the representatives of the German people or with the German people themselves. Still, do not let the House stand upon what I would call ceremony. It is perfectly true the Reichstag is only a quasi-Parliament. It is perfectly true the Reichstag has not, as I admit, the authority of this House of Commons. It is perfectly true that the right hon. Gentlemen who sit on that Front Government Bench have got a relationship to this House so intimate that it cannot be talked of in the same breath as we talk of the Ministers of the German Empire. That is all perfectly true. Nevertheless, the Reichstag is representative of the German people, and a Resolution passed, as this was, by an overwhelming majority of the representatives of the German people must be taken by us to indicate the mind, point of view, and opinion of the German people. Moreover, the House must remember that the declaration was made at a very interesting time. The late Chancellor was going. Why, nobody knows. We cannot tell whether he had to go because he was too liberal or because he was too conservative, and could not face the public opinion of Germany. At the time this Resolution was passed, the new Chancellor was coming in; the new Chancellor—that is the new authority—and the Reichstag, under those circumstances, rushed at once into the breach and passed this Resolution. Why? I think because it wished to indicate that whoever was in authority in Germany would require to respect that expression of German public opinion. That curious thing is this: In this country all the newspapers have put the emphasis upon the speech of the German' Chancellor. In Germany, so far as one can find out, the newspapers have put the emphasis upon the Reichstag Resolution. That is a very significant fact. When the Prime Minister spoke at the Queen's Hall the other day he had no reference to make to this Resolution. That, I think, is a very unfortunate omission. He addressed himself to the speech of the Chancellor. Take up any German paper you can lay your hands upon that is coming into this country. Even read with some discrimination and courage the eloquent extracts of our daily Press which purport to give one an idea of what is going on in Germany, and hon. Members will see that I am right in what I say. For every one time reference is made to the speech of Dr. Michaelis, ten or twenty references are made to the circulation of the Reichstag Resolution. I see that in to-day's "Times" there is a very maladroit attempt made to give the impression that this is all a mere theatrical display.

It is not true. Certainly the proof of the statement does not appear in the "Times" columns. There is an assertion, but there is no proof. In a copy of the "Vorwarts" which has come to this country there is this very significant editorial, which says this: stag Resolution, and torn it to bits as being provocative and being in our favour. That is how the game is being played. Therefore my first proposition is this: I admit the Reichstag has no executive power. I am sorry it has no executive power. The fact that it has no executive authority must detract from the weight of its pronouncement. But though it cannot be placed on "all-fours" with a pronouncement of this House, or any properly constituted Parliament, or any Parliament fully endowed with the authority of Parliament, nevertheless, the Reichstag does consist of the elected representatives of the German people, and this Resolution must be taken, at any rate, as an expression of the opinion of those representatives. I venture to say that on that low level of value alone the Resolution I have quoted to the House ought to be very carefully considered by this Government, and by this House.

My second proposition is this: That only such a declaration of the people—unofficial and free from authority—the declaration of men who are at liberty to say exactly what they think with absolute candour—that these expressions are going to be the gateway of peace. What is the position of our Government to-day? There is no single Government involved in this War that is in a position to say exactly what it likes, except the Russian Government, that occupies such an extraordinary and peculiar position. The Governments will manœuvre for place. When they are defeated they will cover up their defeat by declaring that they are victorious. They will get their Press to say the same thing. The very day before negotiations are opened up anyone reading the newspapers, and having no information except that which comes from the newspapers, anyone whose only information is the official declarations of the Government, will have no ground for believing that there is anything like peace approaching. Those are the circumstances in which we are placed. Placed as right hon. Gentlemen are, not only in this country but every country, they have to keep a firm face and a straight back upon the tremendous national problems with which they are faced. It is impossible for them to give warning that they are going to yield or to negotiate. But unofficial bodies like the Reichstag can speak and can speak honestly. That circumstance and consideration alone, instead of detracting from the interest, authority, and significance of this Resolution as a matter of fact add to it, and should reveal to this House, much more than if it was loaded up with official responsibility, what are the real sentiments of the German people.

I assume that this Government wants a real peace which has to come by understanding, and by popular agreement? I assume that it does not want to end this War by diplomatic makeshift or by a military truce—as all wars have hitherto been ended? I assume that this Government knows just as well as anybody else that the arms of this nation have never been bankrupt in victory, but that the peace that this nation has made has always been bankrupt in stability? I assume that this Government is determined to do everything it possibly can to end this War in such a way that peace will be established on a broader and firmer foundation than peace has ever hitherto been established in Europe? The conclusion to that then is this: that I appeal to the Government to allow a 'free circulation of those opinions that are expressed in the Reichstag, a free circulation of popular opinion, popular Criticism, popular knowledge, so that French, Germans, Austrians, and British shall understand precisely and definitely what it is they are fighting each other for. Otherwise when the time comes for peace, whatever may be the event which creates the occasion of peace, there will be no peace at all, but one of those fictitious patchups which have been the curse of Europe in days gone by. It has been supported in a most extraordinary way by the result of the Stockholm Conference, or the Stockholm conversations, it was not a conference. The right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench know what view we have taken of Stockholm. By we I mean those who are associated with me in this Resolution. They know what view we took of those Stockholm conversations all along. I never believed all those nursery stories about little pettifogging plots and plans, and sneaking desires to undo the moral will of Europe. I always felt that these were the concoctions of gentlemen who had to make a living by crooked methods.

What happened at the Stockholm Conference? Schiedemann, representing Germany, went and talked with Branting. For the first time fox years the leader of the German Socialist Majority discovered how much of an alien he was in Europe, and discovered for the first time what the position of European opinion was, and after those conversations, which were supposed to have been promoted by the Kaiser, Schiedemann went back to Berlin, and immediately the ferment of a revolution began to show itself in the midst of Berlin society. Let it go on, let us have these exchanges of opinion, and of view. There are men of influence in this country, and organisations of influence, whose enlistment, I do not say on behalf of peace, because that is misunderstood, but on behalf of popular understanding in Europe are going to do ten thousand times more good than will be done by restrained; and constrained official reproaches. Let them go and exchange their opinions and multiply a thousand fold the good result you have had from your Stockholm Conference last month. I wish to draw the attention of the House to two aspects of this Revolution which are of the very greatest importance if we are going to have a peace by understanding in the end, if, when it is all over, there is really going to be peace (and I for one want none of your patched up peaces). The first is this: If any hon. Member reads this Resolution he will see a strange German psychology to which he demurs, but it is no use his demurring; he has to face it as an objective fact. It does not lie either with him or myself to pass judgment upon it. It is there, and he has to face it as a problem which he has to solve. That psychology is this: the Germans still believe apparently that they are engaged in a war of defence.

It is a very curious thing that both the Majority and the Minority Socialists have got, a sort of feeling that it is a war of defence. The Majority, of course, have a very strong feeling that it is a war of defence, but the Minority have a kind of sinking feeling that after all they are not quite safe. It is widespread, and it finds vent in the Reichstag, in the Press, and in all the public announcements that indicate and influence the public opinion of Germany, and I think this House had better accept it as a problem, as something that it has got to face, to explain and to remove if it possibly can. They believe that largely economic jealousy was the: cause of this war. They have had that devilish kind of history which puts all progress on a materialist plane. All their history is explained by economic processes, and they relate everything to those economic processes. But when we condemn or criticise them for that, do not let us imagine for a single moment we are very much better than them, because the same school of history was just as rampant in this country as it was in Germany. That is not all. When they find that the will of this country is expressed by official declarations of the knock-out-blow type, when they find that this country has entered into Paris Conference agreements which declare quite openly that Germany after the War is to be punished, is to be crushed, is to be kept in a place which we decide and into which we are to place her, then is there not some reason for their suspicions? Quite honestly and fairly, if we were dealing with each other, if we had a personal quarrel arising out of misunderstandings, would we not want to bring forward as an excuse and reason for those misunderstandings things of the same kind as the knockout-blow declaration, which, of course was spread throughout Germany in order to encourage German resistance? The Paris Conference Resolutions were also spread throughout Germany in order to encourage the German resistance. They were sent into the trenches, circulated through the trade union agencies in special leaflets signed by the secretary of the Trade Unions Federation. If a thing similar to that had taken place in our personal relationships, as honest reasonable men, when explanations had been made, we would shake hands and say "there was some reason for the misunderstanding."

The misunderstanding is that Germany thinks it has to defend itself; and I say it is supported by these things. The Germans have an excuse. Not only that, there is precisely the same process going on in Germany with the English newspapers that there is going on in England with the German newspapers. You get those diabolical articles in the "Morning Post" that the right hon. Gentleman had to object to in a recent Debate—those wicked, untrue statements, expressions of a kind of wild madness which nobody except an insignificant minority of this country hold. The "National Review" follows in the same footsteps. These papers go carefully over to Germany; they are religiously looked at in Germany, and the most obnoxious and poisonous weeds are carefully uprooted and appear in all the German newspapers of large circulation as your opinion, as my opinion, as the opinion of this House, and as the decisions of His Majesty's Government. I say we have to face that as an objective problem which must be solved, as a misunderstanding which must be removed, if peace, when it comes, is going to have any reality. So far as the Government is concerned, I think that it ought to face these things in the same scientific spirit in which Sir Douglas Haig has to face his military problems. It is not enough for our Government to say, "We allow our soldiers to fight"; it is not enough for it to say, "We will give them a sufficient supply of munitions, and we will select the best military brains at our command to lead them." The Government must remember this, that public-opinion is one of the most important things during this War—public opinion at home, public opinion abroad, and, if it includes German public opinion, it includes one of the most important elements in the success or failure of this War. When the Army used to be a small, hired affair, and a war was a disturbance in a corner, a sort of parish yard row, then public opinion counted for little. If the victorious army got so victorious that starvation came upon the population of the enemy country, very well, then, the Governors had to yield.

But since the French Revolution a war breaking out means that the whole nation must go into arms, practically and almost literally, men, women and children—women into the factories, which are as essential to battles as is the army in the field. As this takes place then the problem of public opinion, as every military writer has recognised, becomes of enormously increased importance, and the duty of the diplomatist and the statesman then is not merely to sit in his office at home and supply the army, but to see to it that both at home and abroad, in the friendly allied countries and in the enemy countries, there is no chance whatever of any malicious agency spreading for any time and with any success misunderstandings and misrepresentations of the objects for which the War is being waged. This Resolution clearly shows that the Reichstag, that the German people, are under the impression still that they are fighting a war of defence. Let us dispel it. The Government can do it. The second thing is this, that this Resolution makes it perfectly clear that the German people are not out for annexation. We do not know why the ex-Chancellor resigned, but I have a shrewd suspicion that Belgium has something to do with it. We do not know what the ex-Chancellor has in his heart. We do not know what the real rift of Dr. Michaelis' speech was. We know he said certain things that were good, certain things that were bad, and certain things that were indifferent. I think the explanation of the speech as a whole was that he wanted to get on to the saddle first, and that it gives no information as to how he is to ride the horse once he is on it. I may be wrong, but, in any event, we have not much evidence one way or another. But so far as public opinion is concerned we have got it. We have got it in this Resolution of the Reichstag. The newspapers have made it perfectly clear. Practically every German paper that I have seen (or translations from them which have been brought to me), refers to this Resolution, and one of the points they take is this: That the Resolution makes a declaration against annexation. May I trouble the House to read a few extracts? "Vorwaerts" says: it goes, and for what it is worth—the Resolution of the representatives of the German people—has declared definitely that the German people do not want annexation. I think, in view of the fact that this War is going on—we are told in paper after paper to-day that it is to be carried on through the winter into the next year—the Government ought to see to it that there is no doubt as to what this actually does mean. This decision of the Reichstag that Germany should have no annexation, wants no annexation, that the War will not be followed by annexation—how much importance is to be placed upon that from an official point of view? I feel perfectly certain that if the Government would take the opportunity of this declaration of the Reichstag to make it impossible that the matter should be left where it is, which, after all, is the business of diplomatists and the business of statesmen, then it will be discovered that one of the most prolific sources of misunderstanding and impotence, so far as the public mind is concerned, will be immediately removed.

But I think it would serve the purpose of the country at the present moment, and be a very good thing, if we understood exactly where we are at the present time in this War. I think everybody will admit that when the Russian Revolution took place a great change came over the Allied position. The Russian Revolution was indeed a revolution. It was not merely the taking of a man or a family off the throne; it was a complete change of policy. The old passed away, and a new generation of ideas, a new point of view, a new intention, a new goal and a new inspiration came to guide the destinies of Russia and came to influence the lives of the Russian people. What has happened since then? I am sure that everybody, irrespective of opinion on the main question I am raising, will hope and pray that the Gethsemane of suffering through which Russia is now going will soon pass away. We watch from day to day with breathless interest this extraordinary fabric built up in a night, sometimes so tottering and so assailed that we are almost afraid we are witnessing its premature end. If that should happen, then it will be the worse for Europe—and not merely for Europe. I hope that no stone will me left unturned by the Government to give the Russian Revolution such sup- port that it will survive the present trying circumstances in which, unfortunately, it finds itself.

What happened? The Russian Revolution came, and we suddenly discovered that the treasures we were to put at the feet of an Ally were spurned by that Ally—that, as a matter of fact, it did not want Constantinople, that all the Imperialist intentions in the Balkans and the Near East, which were part and parcel of the agreement with the old Russian governing authorities, were spurned or rejected by the new Government of Russia. This Government told us that it wanted, neither for itself nor for any of its Allies, either annexations or indemnities. That was a Revolution indeed! A State that has gone through a revolution like that cannot immediately be a military State. It is rather amusing to read accounts of how the French rose in the time of the French Revolution. The analogy of Russia, which has just gone through a revolution, in the middle of a war which had been organised and brought to such a great state of completion as this War, taking its place in that War in the same way as the people of France rose to defend the Revolution a hundred years ago, is the most absurd proposition. What was the value of the Russian Revolution to the Allies? Purely a moral value. Russia, purged by her Revolution, placed herself at the head of the moral forces of Europe. No nation, either Allied or enemy, was unable to withhold its homage to Russia purged by the Revolution. The influence of the Revolution was almost as great in Germany as it was here, and if I were to criticise the Government at all—I do it with great hesitation—it would be this: it did not have enough insight to take sufficient advantage of the tremendous moral backing that the Russian Revolution gave the whole of the Allies.

There were three things that the Russian Revolution did. It ought to have shown the Government that in this War it ought to have got into the most direct and intimate touch with the people of the country. Our diplomatic documents occupy a place in the nation like our French novels in our private life. They are kept under lock and key, lest youths and innocent minded maidens should lay their hands upon them. It is perfectly absurd and monstrous that that should be so. Russia says that there is no such place for diplomatic documents. Nations at war should not merely consult generals, diplomatists, and Cabinet Ministers, but should see to it that the intentions, the will, the purpose of the people, should influence the governing authorities. The people are not competent to come to conclusions unless they are told the truth to start with. The Russians also taught us that there should be democratic initiative. The Russian Government was not afraid to ask its people to say what they thought, and there has been no more valuable ally of the Russian Provisional Government than the Workmen and Soldiers' Council of Petrograd. [An HON. MEMBER: "No!"] We know it has had its faults, but I would like to know anybody, who understands Russia and the problem that the Provisional Government had to face, who could tell me that that Government could have lived for six weeks had it not been for the Workmen and Soldiers' Council outside supporting it by all the authority it could. It was a safety valve, and you have to have very big safety valves in revolutions. You have to have authorities who can discuss, and authorities who are free from the red-tape and responsibility of office, and only because the Russian Provisional Government armed itself in that way, and supplemented itself by the patriotic Workmen and Soldiers' Council, has the Provisional Government been able to survive storm after storm, every one of which has almost brought it to wreck and ruin.

So far as democratic initiative is concerned, I wonder what would happen if the Governments on both sides selected twelve men from the Armies of both sides, locked them up in a room, and told them they were not to be allowed to leave that room until they produced reasons why they were fighting each other. I venture to say they would stay there till the Judgment Day. This is perhaps what would happen: The British soldier would produce Belgium, would produce invaded France, would produce German barbarism. The German soldier would deny each one, and would produce crimes against this country. [HON. MEMBERS: "What are they?"]

Would the hon. and gallant Member be good enough to follow me? I say the German soldier, being asked by the British soldier what he was fighting for, would produce what he would consider were crimes against his country, and I was going immediately to say, hemming the country in and limiting its economic expansion.

Would the hon. and gallant Member please try to understand the argument, instead of throwing these interjections at me? If the hon. and gallant Member is under the impression that if a German soldier met a British soldier, and was asked to tell the British soldier why he was fighting him, he would not raise these things, then I have nothing more to say to the hon. and gallant Member.

I was under the impression that the hon. Member meant policy rather than criminal acts. The hon. and gallant Member thought he meant criminal acts.

Probably it was the word I used. I wanted to put it in the way the German would put it. He would say it was a national crime. If he did not say that, he would have none of that vim and force behind him to enable him to go on with the fighting. I do not want to be misunderstood, and heat on an occasion like this does not always produce enlightenment. If we try to remember that men are dying for us, then we shall be all the more careful when discussion takes place that the real facts are put on the Table in order that we may get a solution.

Will the hon. Member state what he means by crimes of the British Empire? The British Empire, from start to finish, has always welcomed economic expansion in every part of the territory under the British flag.

5.0 P.M.

I really do not understand the hon. and gallant Member's point. I am not saying that there is any crime. I am saying that the German soldier would say there was, and the hon. and gallant Member just interrupted me when I was going to give the British soldier's reply. When that statement was made the British soldier would deny the whole thing and he would inform the German soldier that we had opened our doors to the German dealer and conducted our trade on the basis of Free Trade, and that our Colonies were open to German commerce, and so on; and having told the German soldier that, the German soldier would not be able to put down any score against us on the piece of paper before us; and so it would go on until both sides had exhausted their reasons for the War—not their story of what has happened since the War. Having exhausted their reasons for the War, so far as the people themselves were concerned, the two sides would sit with blank sheets of paper before them. That is what the Russians have taught us as regards the value of democratic initiative—democracies themselves not merely coming to opinions but doing something which will make their opinions effective. There is a third point which the Russian Revolution has taught us, and it is that we should revise our statement of war aims. As a matter of fact, we have got to do it, because Russia herself is no longer a partner in the original allied war aims. Russia says, "So far as our part is concerned, we want it to be left out—we are prepared to surrender any claim to Constantinople"; and so it is necessary that the Allies should meet together and state exactly what are their war aims. In that respect this country has been very badly served.

There are two agreements which the Government has come to with its Allies of which I think we are entitled to know the contents, because they have been the subject of very considerable discussions abroad. I will refer first of all to the agreement with Roumania last year. It is necessary to be very careful, because with the Regulations under the Defence of the Realm Act suspended over one's head by a hair, one does not know quite what to say. People who want to obey the law do not know what to think, particularly when one finds that in the French and Italian papers these things are very fully discussed. I am only saying what is there alluded to, but the agreement appears to give to Roumania territory to which she is not entitled on any ethnological grounds; and it ought to be explained to us as fully as it is being explained to the French and Italians. Then take the agreement with Italy, of 27th April, 1915. That is being discussed in Italy, and I find in the French papers very frequent references to and extracts from the Italian newspapers relating to this agreement. Sometimes they are couched in one set of phrases and sometimes in another. Sometimes the agreement looks all right and sometimes all wrong; but why is there no paper here, or why are we not allowed to know here precisely what is in this agreement—to the same extent as it is published and discussed in France, Italy, and elsewhere. I am told in neutral countries—although I get no newspapers from neutral countries now—the discussion is still fuller. And in the newspapers of Allied countries one does come across extracts relating to those agreements taken from neutral newspapers. We ought not to be treated as children. The Government ought to show us by the facts that there is no discrepancy between their moral declarations and the program to which they have committed themselves. We treated Russia as a military power when, as a matter of fact, she was only a moral power, or we should not have made the mistake we did.

I want to deal with America in the same way, America has come in and we can use her in one of the two ways—either as a great moral factor—a great remote Western Republic disinterestedly coming in to fight with us as an ally—or we can use her as a military power and wait, using an expression that has been used over and over again in this House, until America comes into the War. That means we are going to settle down deliberately to a war of attrition. Days and days, and months and months, pressing, pressing, pressing, using all the powers of slow starvation, exhaustion, death and destruction, waiting till the other side lies down unable to move. That may be the policy, but I do want to warn the Government of this, that they make a great mistake if they assume that a war of attrition is only a war between armies. Once you engage in a war of attrition you engage in a war of one social order against another; you rub into holes and tear into tatters not only the edge of the web of civilisation where the armies are placed but you endanger the whole of your social fabric, and the longer the thing goes on the more you depend not upon your armies but upon the social fabric which has been woven with so much care by generation after generation and which it presses and contains in itself the finest pattern of our modern civilisation. If the Government place's before itself rationally a war of attrition I hope it will consider all the issues before it finally makes its decision.

I am afraid I have drawn every liberally upon the patience and time of the House. I hope I have said nothing which will make anybody's position more difficult or the position of this country more difficult. I wished to state the case from a point of view which is not popular. I know that. it is not popular, and that it is held only by a small minority, but it is a very growing minority. It is the point of view that I have held and I have tried to express it to-day. I believe you must adopt a new policy because things are changing. The Russian Revolution and the entry of America into the War have marked that change in a dramatic way. I beg you to do three things, and I speak for the particular sections with which I am connected. I beg the Government to promote in every way the consultation of Allied peoples. There are two organisations which stand pre-eminently before the world as international organisations One is Labour and the other is the Church. The God of Christianity is not a village idol or a national idol. He is universal, and the homage which he asks—[An HON. MEMBER: "The Germans say that!"] The source is the same. Surely it is an organisation which both here and in Germany bows its knee before the same Cross and the same Figure crucified. Surely the peoples of all the countries that profess that common name and belong to that universal Empire ought to be allowed and encouraged by the Governments to come together and see if from their common faith they can find a common way to peace So with us in the Labour movement. We have made our beginning. Stockholm has borne its fruit. An Allied Conference will bear-still more, and an International Conference following an Allied Conference will bear even more more fruit. When the people speak and when they know their minds—when the representatives of the people have an opportunity of finding out from each other where they stand and what they want and what they are aiming at, then, Mr. Speaker, my conviction is that the War will be very well over. When democracies, who know very little of those great differences which hurl men in millions to meet and kill each other, and to devastate the States of each other, meet in conference to discuss their differences they will find out that the time has come for an active effort to make peace, and when Governments come in, led by that influence, we will have a peace which will not be disturbed as past peace has been disturbed by preparations for coming war.

I ask to be allowed to second this Amendment in a very few words, which shall be the fewer for the interlude which disturbed our proceedings at the beginning. I wish to put the situation before the House of Commons in this way: For the past year the refrain which has rung through all British speeches has been this, "We cannot think of making peace with the German militarists, or of dealing with a Junker-ridden Government; but give us the German people in a new frame of mind, and then we can talk of peace." I think that the House should take into account the real significance of last week's Resolution in the Reichstag. The Resolution has been read by my hon. Friend, and it is clear that the Resolution does repudiate the principles of annexation, conquest, and aggression which characterised the militarist policy in Germany. You had the Reichstag voting, and on the one side against the Resolution there were 116 votes, exclusively, as far as we know, of the Conservative and Junker party. As we also know, that is a party which is grossly over represented by the arrangement of the agricultural constituencies in Germany. On the other side, the 214 votes represent the Centrum party, consisting of the Catholics and the Moderate Conservative party, the Radicals and all the Social Democrats. This great body of opinion represented by that 214 votes not only includes the whole of the working class in Germany, but would represent, if you took the equivalent in this country, the whole of the Labour party on both sides, the whole of the Liberal party, and probably a good half, at least, of the Conservative party. Here you have this great mass of German opinion which has hitherto supported the War and the German Government moving and passing a Resolution intended to repudiate the policy of annexation and aggression.

And how is the passing of this Resolution taken in this country? Very few newspapers, except the "Manchester Guardian," as far as I saw, even stated what the Resolution was. It was hidden from the British public. At the beginning of this week I found very many of my fellow Members had never read the Resolution or seen it. I heard yesterday of a very high authority in one sphere of our national life who did not even know of its existence. It was never mentioned even by the Prime Minister in his speech in answer to the German Chancellor, and for all that matters, so far as England had considered it, it might as well never have been passed. That is the first reason why we have brought it up in order that the people may know what has been passed by the German Reichstag, and that there is a change in the opinion of the great mass of the German people. May I deal with the reply of the Prime Minister to the German Chancellor? No one will dispute the justice of some of the criticism of the Prime Minister in regard to a great deal of Dr. Michaelis' speech. It was obviously a speech with an uncertain note, facing both ways if you like, and in the opinion of myself and my Friends, as well as possibly in the opinion of the great mass of hon. Members of this House, one of the principal reasons for the continuation of this War lies in the fact that the responsible German Government refuses to state the terms on which it would make peace.

To my mind the primary test of good faith to us in England—without which we shall all regard peace as impossible—is a clear understanding that Germany shall evacuate and restore Belgium and France without attaching economic or strategic considerations to it. To that, at any rate, we all agree. But the Prime Minister went on to say with regard to the speech of the German Chancellor that it pointed to an annexation policy and might lead us to believe that the Germans were going to annex Belgium. In saying that the Prime Minister ignored one of the principal facts in regard to that speech. It was made by the Chancellor in the Reichstag on this Resolution which the Chancellor neither challenged nor dissuaded the Reichstag from passing. To all intents and purposes the Chancellor was accepting that Resolution. I will join with anyone in blaming the Chancellor for not saying outright what the world is waiting for, an announcement that Germany will clear out of Belgium, but our Prime Minister has no right to say that the German Chancellor is on the side of the annexation of Belgium.

On the other hand, the fact that he spoke favourably of that Resolution tends to make us think that he knows Belgium has got to be abandoned. I agree that we cannot have peace until all the Governments and the German Government clearly and expressly repudiate the idea of conquest and annexation, but surely it is our business to respond to the new mind of the great mass of the German people. The Reichstag did give a clearer note than the Chancellor. Perhaps it was the Premier's business to reply to the Chancellor and not to the Reichstag, but it is our business, and who can doubt it, to reply to the Reichstag, and whether my fellow members accept my resolution or not, or whether any large number of hon. Members will vote for it or not—we all know the difficulties under which this Resolution is brought forward—I cannot help thinking that there are many hon. Members here who feel that the German people, through their representatives, be they powerful or powerless, having said to the world, "We are ready to make peace, repudiating our conquests and annexation," it is the duty of the British Parliament to make the response and declare that we are ready to adopt that policy for ourselves and that there shall from this time forward be no more doubt as to what the British policy means. Why should we not think of going over the heads of our Ministers if they will not talk plainly, if they still shuffle about Mesopotamia and try to make people believe that we are going to keep the German Colonies in conquest. If still we are not ready to meet our Allies, the Russians, and to say honestly what we really mean, then I say in a short time, if not to-day, it will become the duty of this Parliament to insist on the Government doing what they will not do now.

I want to make a remark about a question which was referred to by my hon. Friend. He spoke of the feeling in the minds of a great many people that the Reichstag is powerless in Germany, however well-intentioned it may be. I agree that it is not constitutionally as powerful as this House. I am not quite sure how powerful this House is at the present moment, but I agree that constitutionally we are more powerful than the German Reichstag, and if we decided to enforce a policy upon our Government we could do it. But it is not the view of important Germans that the Reichstag is powerless, or that the German Government can be carried on irrespective of German opinion. There are two things recently said by Herr Scheidemann, the leader of the Socialist party, to which I should like to call the attention of the House. A few weeks ago, in the Reichstag, he said: Cossacks plundered Berlin in the Seven Years' War. This despotism was removed directly the terror of the reactionary Government of Russia was removed, and consequently there is bound to be a break between the German military party and the German Radicals and Social Democrats.

The imminent impending horror of the unaccountable, execrable Russian autocracy has gone in Germany, and the startling and rapid change that has taken place is real and deep, and at the bottom of their hearts the Germans must know that the real excuse for militarism is no more, namely, the fear of Russian autocracy led by the immoral power of the Czar. This change of opinion in Germany ought to be met by statesmanship from here. We ought to be asking ourselves, How can we hasten the cleavage between the masses of the German people and the Junkers? That ought to be the principal question filling our minds, and surely the Way to do it is not by ignoring and sneering at their efforts for liberation. They pass sane Resolutions, and it is our business to pass responding Resolutions and to ask them to go further forward in that direction in which we ought to be the first to move. That is why to-day we insist upon a restatement of terms by, the British Government.

May I ask the hon. Member whether there is not one more reason for the alteration in the German position which he has omitted, namely, the valour of the British troops?

I said that I was not going to discuss at length the misery resulting from the War, which obviously includes enormous losses owing to the valour of our troops.

I am not talking of losses, but of the victories of our Armies in the field.

If I may say so, I differ from the hon. Member in regard to that, and something that I shall say in a moment will not please him, though at the same time it will meet him. I cannot help thinking that there is more hope of peace to-day than there was a few Weeks ago. I agree with my hon. Friend that until we get open diplomacy we really do not know what our Government are thinking. We do not know what they may be doing behind the scenes. I hope that they are preparing for peace. That is all that I can say. We must all be glad that the Socialists of the world are likely to get together, and when the Socialists of the world begin to find some methods of possible peace the Governments may be in a hurry to follow. I should like to say about the speeches of the German Chancellor and the British Prime Minister that there is in them a different note from what there has been before. There is, of course, in both of them a good deal of brave speaking, but there is no longer in either of them any expectation of any mighty victory. It is quite true that the German Chancellor talks a good deal, about the U-boat campaign. He says that it is all they expected. He does not say—and he does not uphold the hopes of his people by saying—that they are starving us. He knows that the thing has essentially failed. He says that it is impairing our economic life. Of course, the War is impairing our economic life, and the U-boat campaign may do it rather more. There is no great note of certain. triumph in the speech of Dr., Michaelis, nor is there in our Premier's. There is no more talk of the knock-out-blow. That is consigned to some museum of obsolete political blunderbusses. There is, however, this in both speeches. The German Chancellor, and the British Premier both say, "Our Empire is safe." Probably they are both of them right.

I have, as my hon. Friends know, for two years unrepentantly declared that, this War was then, is now, and as I say will be from the military point of view a deadlock. I do not mean that there will not be swaying fortunes in the War with, glorious victories and unfortunate defeats. I mean that going on as long as we like with this War neither we nor the Germans will ever be able to dictate peace, which is the proof of victory. This War, as men in their private conversations are ready to say, is to-day a deadlock, and is so likely to remain. Would that they would make the admission openly. Either side, I agree, can go on with this War slaughtering more millions, and by obstinacy leading the world down to ruin. There is no great victory. Some people do not like the idea of saying that the War is a deadlock. Why should we mind? May I ask my fellow Members to consider why a military deadlock should be so much feared by us? In whose favour does it tell? If this War cannot be ended by conquest, and if this War has got to be ended by agreement, by negotiation, and by the abandonment of conquest by all parties, in whose favour is it going to end? Assuredly not in favour of German militarism. German militarism perishes by a non-annexation peace, and, what is more, German militarism knows it. When the crisis was developing three or four weeks ago in Berlin, an article was written in the "Kreuz-Zeitung," the great paper of the Conservatives and Junkers in Berlin, deploring the development, and beseeching the Germans not to go in for the Socialist policy of no annexation. What did the "Kreuz-Zeitung" say? battlefields there as in newspapers, in Parliaments, in workshops, in factories, and in carriages where men meet and are discussing how the War ought to end. I have hitherto spoken in this House, almost very time that I have risen, with a sense of isolation. I tell the House that now I feel no sense of isolation at all, because the plea that I make is the plea of great common forces all the world over that are moving up to overwhelm the makers of war and those who are keeping it going to-day. I and my friends are speaking in our own poor way for the same causes for which the great mass of the Russian people are fighting.

We are speaking also in the sense that almost all the Socialists in all the warring lands and the great mass of the people, the silent mass of saddened people in almost all countries who are sick of this War and only want to find the way out, speak. They are sick of all the warmongers. They are sick of the apostles of the knock-out blow and of annexation, sick of those who talk of spreading culture by militarism in Germany, or of Empire by conquest in France or England, sick of the promoters of ruthlessness and of those who believe in retaliation, sick of those who talk here of permanent economic separation between the peoples, and sick of those who preach hatred. Of course, those evil forces still control the world to-day, but they have this inveterate weakness, thank Heaven, that all these various militarisms and hostilities are set one against another and have no common aim. They are all hostile and irreconcilable. The force for which we speak is a common idea beginning to grow in Germany as well as here and rampant and flourishing in Russia, namely, that this War cannot be ended by force, and that if it is to be ended at all it has got to be ended by a return to reason. What we stand for is Internationalism and not a narrow nationalism. It is pity for all the miserable warring people and not vengeance on our enemies.

I do not propose to occupy anything like the length of time that my two hon. Friends who have just sat down have occupied in going into this very important issue. So far as this House is concerned, this is not a new issue. I must demur altogether, if my hon. Friends will allow me to do so without any offence, to the suggestion that they and those whose views they have so eloquently advanced to-day are the persons or the section of opinion in this country who have a monopoly of the desire for peace. Nobody wants peace more than I do, except, it may be, His Majesty's Government. There is no monopoly in the desire for peace. Let me say further, that they are not alone in welcoming any indication on the part of the mass of the German people that they are prepared for peace on terms such as will enable the Allies to attain the great purposes for which they set out on this War. I confess I listened with a good deal of amazement to the peroration of the hon. Member who has just sat down. One would gather from what he said that the issue at stake in this War is Imperialism upon the one side and Democracy upon the other.

I say, on the contrary, that the issue is between freedom on the one side and force on the other. I think that both my hon. Friends have attached more importance—I wish I could attach as much—to the recent resolution of the Reichstag than it actually deserves. They seem to have forgotten—at any rate, they have not brought to the recollection of the House—the circumstances in which that resolution was passed. What had happened? After an obscure struggle in Berlin, in which, for a time, it seemed as though the advocates of a relatively moderate policy would get their way, the military chiefs appeared upon the scene. They very soon acquired the upper hand, and they secured the dismissal of the Chancellor, in whom, only a few days before, the Emperor had professed his own unbounded and undiminished confidence. What was the meaning of that? It meant, if it meant anything at all—we do not know, of course, more of the new Chancellor than the fact that he was the person who was apparently selected as their nominee and spokesman by the victors in this combat behind the scenes—it must have meant, if it meant anything, that, so far as the policy of the German Government was concerned, the counsels of moderation had given way to the counsels of the extremists. Something had been said by my hon. Friends about the position of the Reichstag. The new Chancellor was appointed without any Parliamentary consultation. He possesses no Parliamentary authority. So far as we know, the opinion of the Reichstag, not only upon the composition but upon the policy of the German Government, remains what it has always been—a practically negligible quantity. I regret it, but I must point out that the new Chancellor himself, when he gave to this Resolution, as he did, a very tepid benediction, was careful to qualify that by the proviso— adhesion, with all their vast resources, both moral and material, of the United States of America.

In my view both those facts ought to have a very direct and very practical bearing upon the opinion of the world as to me reality and the sincerity of the aims which we have from the first avowed. Why do I say that? Because those two new facts mean that the Allied forces consist of none but free peoples, and not only so, but that they comprise the vast—indeed, the overwhelming—majority of all the free peoples of the world. They mean, in a word, to put it more shortly still, that the Alies are fighting for nothing but freedom, but—an important addition—for nothing short of freedom. That, in a nutshell, is the policy of this great unprecedented aggregation of free peoples. To suppose that they are going to spend the lives of their best sons, and incur an almost immeasurable mortgage of their resources in the future in promoting the Imperialist and annexationist aims, seems to me to be a night mare hardly worthy the attention of this House. The policy I have stated sounds like a generality, but it has both negative and positive implications, so it seems to me, of much significance. It excludes altogether—I say it with deference to my hon. Friend who has just sat down—the ambitions, falsely attributed to some at any rate of the Allies, that they hope to make victory in the War the pretext for the attainment of selfish schemes of territorial aggrandisement. It excludes, in my view, the equally false supposition that we are aiming at the destruction or even at the permanent mutilation and crippling of the German and the Austrian peoples. Their right to a free life, if they choose to exercise it, is just as good as our own or as that of the smaller nationalities, whose independence and power of self-defence and self-development were our primary concern when we entered upon the War. But it follows, on the other hand, equally clearly that no peace, earnestly, passionately, as we must all desire peace, would be worth having which restored, under some thin disguise, the precarious status quo ante helium, and left countries like Belgium, like Serbia, like Greece, at the mercy of dynastic intrigues or under the constant menace of military coercion.

6.0 P.M.

In my judgment it would be not only premature but futile to attempt at this stage to grapple in anything like detail with the geographical and ethnological problems which, at the proper time, will come up for adjustment and settlement. But I think we are all agreed—I am sure my hon. Friends who have just spoken will agree with me, and I agree with them—that in any rearrangement of the map, the governing principle ought to be the interest and, so far as it can be ascertained, the will of the populations affected by the change. This principle, which I believe is sincerely adhered to by every one of the Allies, is a principle which may sound like a platitude when it is enunciated here in the House of Commons; but when we come to talk of peace approaches, I am bound to ask the question whether it is a principle which is now accepted in substance or in spirit by the Central Powers? I will take the crucial case put by my hon. Friend just now—the case of Belgium. Both my hon. Friends referred to the somewhat vague repudiations of the principle of annexation in the Reichstag Resolution. I want to put a very plain and specific question with regard to that. Is Germany prepared not only to evacuate Belgium, not only to make full reparation for the colossal mischief and damage which has accompanied her devastating occupation of the country and her practical enslavement, so far as she could carry it out, of large portions of the population; is she prepared not only to do that—this is a very plain question, which admits of a very simple answer—but to restore to Belgium, not the pretence of liberty, but a complete, an unfettered, and an absolute independence? I should like to know the German Chancellor's answer to that question—not the answer of the Reichstag. I ask the Chancellor that. I ask him now, as far as I may. It is a very simple question, and it is one of many other concrete questions I could put. It is a question that does not stand alone. I cannot find the answer to that expressed or necessarily implied in the vague and indeterminate formula of the Reichstag Resolution. As I have said, I mention for the moment only a single illustration. If I went over the map I could easily find half a dozen more. But I do not elaborate the case because it is far from my wish to prove that peace is impossible. The very opposite is my desire and my prayer, as it is that of every man, I am certain, in every quarter of this House, because I cannot see—I wish I could—in what has recently taken place in Berlin any real approximation of a practical kind to the declared and irreversible objects of the Allies.

It may well be—there I think I find myself in agreement with my hon. Friend who moved this Amendment—that as the German Government does not speak for the Reichstag, so the Reichstag itself does not speak for, or at any rate does not give full expression to the whole view and opinion of the mass of the German people. I believe that to be at this moment one of the greatest obstacles to the attainment of peace. It is one which it does not lie in the power of the Allies to remove. It lies in the power of the German people. It is for them to say if it is or is not their desire. So far as we are concerned, so far as it lies within our province and our power, my belief is that the best hope of peace is in a frank and open statement tooth by way of avowal and disavowal of the objects for which we are fighting, and as a means to that end I, for my part, welcome the fullest use of all the opportunities which present themselves for the interchange of views between the representatives of the great democracies. It cannot be too clearly, too emphatically, or too often stated that this is a matter not for any Governments but for the peoples, or for the Governments only in so far as they can claim to be the authentic spokesmen and interpreters of the peoples for whom they stand. Once that is generally realised throughout the democracies of the world, I believe that we shall be within measurable distance of a lasting and an honourable peace. Meantime, we should not be helping the advent of peace if we were to give the impression that there is any halting in our determination or any doubt of our ability to carry on, if need be, the burden which we took up with a clear conscience for great ends, and which we can only in honour lay down when we feel sure that those ends are going to be achieved.

I rise to put as far as I may, in as plain and simple a way as possible, the views which I hold and which I believe are shared by the party with which I am associated. The hon. Gentleman who moved this Resolution admitted that if this Resolution were carried it would have the effect of defeating the Consolidated Fund Bill, and therefore of bringing down the Government. I do not say that in certain circumstances that might not be an advantageous thing to do, but I do say that to-day, and in the circumstances in which I find myself, I cannot associate myself with a Motion which would have that effect. I might say this also, that the attempt which is made time and again to make it appear that there is some superior moral standpoint which is occupied by the hon. Gentleman and his Friend, which is not shared by the rest of my party and of the House as a whole is one of those considerations which I feel bound to repudiate. I will associate myself freely with what the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Asquith) has said, that I believe that not only in this. House but throughout the country there is a genuine desire for peace, but a desire for peace not on the Resolution which was adopted by the Reichstag but on the achievement of the purposes for which this country went into the War. If I were to associate myself with any other country's pronouncement in Parliament it would be with that which was unanimously adopted by the French Chamber of Deputies, even so late as last month. The French Chamber of Deputies adopted this Resolution, and I believe that this House would adopt a similar resolution with regard to our aims. Claiming to represent directly the sovereignty of the French people it gives greetings to the Russian democracy and the other Allied democracies, and it endorses the unanimous protest which the representatives of Alsace-Lorraine addressed in 1870 to the National Assembly against their detachment from France. It declares that it expects from the War which has been imposed upon Europe by the aggression of Imperialistic Germany along with the liberation of the invaded territories, the return of Alsace-Lorraine to the mother country, and just reparation for the damage inflicted. Remote from all thought of conquest and servitude of foreign population it expects that the efforts of the armies of the Republic and of the Allied armies will permit, once Prussian militarism is overthrown, lasting guarantees of peace and independence to be obtained for the peoples, great and small, in an organisation at this very moment being established for the community of nations, and it concludes: That resolution, in my opinion, supplies the answer, definite and distinct, to the Reichstag resolution, an answer given before the Reichstag resolution, and if the German people really desire the peace which is suggested, I venture to assert that they can have it when they will impose upon their Government and upon their ruling authority the same desires and the same respect for moral issues, which we desire and which the French Parliament desire. We cannot forget, and we have no right to forget, the origins of this War. The attempt to impose upon us a resolution so late in the day, passed as it was perhaps with sincerity, perhaps not, but at any rate absolutely ineffective—the desire to impose such a resolution in our Parliament is, in my opinion, a mistake. My hon. Friend assumes in his speech a great knowledge of what is happening in Germany. I wonder sometimes whether he knows really so much as he assumes to know. I really cannot understand entirely his point of view, for if Scheidemann went to Stockholm and was disillusioned to some extent by Branting it was not very long after that that he was dining with the Kaiser. What is the position of the German Socialist majority still in Germany? Have we any indication whatever that at this stage they are prepared to hold out the hand to the British democracy, remembering that the British labour forces have never from the very outset of this War shown any jingoistic or imperialistic attitude, or any desire of foreign conquest, but have merely entered into a real war of self-defence, and not into an offensive war.

I hold in my hand the views which have been put on record by a representative of the majority of the German Socialist party. Cunon is the man's name, and this record of his views appeared in the "Partei-Zusammenbuch" for 1915. From beginning to end he denies the rights of small nationalities to exist. He preaches the pure doctrine of brute force, and he bases that upon Marx and Engel. Some of these quotations are exceedingly illuminative. The House will pardon me if I do not read them now. If there is any desire to hear them I can read them. But what I have stated is an accurate summary of what they mean, and we have no sign of repentance on the part of the German Socialist Majority or of any desire to come to an understanding, such as has been suggested in this country. The British Labour party has defined its attitude from the beginning of this War. It has put it on record at two annual Conferences. The hon. Member who moved this Motion was present at the meeting, where I think it was as fairly and as accurately put forward as it could be, and he subscribed to it. We have never departed from it, and we do not depart from the words to which he subscribed then, namely:

Does the hon. Member say that that declaration was a declaration of the Labour party?

I did not say any such thing. But the British Labour party were represented at this particular Conference and the hon. Member for Leicester was represented, and these Resolutions were put upon the Agenda and in the report of the Labour party held at Bristol and accepted by the Labour party at Bristol, and therefore they have as much the authority of the British Labour party behind them as they have of the Socialists. The Declaration goes on to say:

"They demand that Belgium shall be liberated and compensated."

Does the Reichstag Resolution say that Belgium shall be liberated and compensated?

If the hon. Member wants to make a speech or has a new point to make I will gladly sit down.

My point is this. Did not Bethmann Hollweg definitely say at the beginning of the War that Belgium would: be compensated?

He has shown a very curious way of compensating Belgium, and' I would like to point out that if that point has anything in it the present Chancellor, who is supposed to speak for the Government of Germany, should say it also. The Declaration continues:

"They desire that the question of Poland shall be settled in accordance with the wishes of the Polish people, either in the sense of autonomy in the midst of another State or in that of complete independence, and they wish that throughout all Europe, from Alsace-Lorraine to the Balkans, those populations that have been annexed by force shall receive the right freely to dispose of themselves."

There is much more in the Resolution. It is exceedingly important. While in flexibly resolved for victory, the Resolution goes on to say it wants victory to achieve those ends. This is the difference between the British Labour party and the hon. Members opposite who have made themselves responsible for this Resolution, that, while they express this opinion as a pious hope, we say that the country has got to fight for these things and that they can only be achieved by fighting. My hon. Friend (Mr. Snowden) may smile or laugh as he likes, but if it had not been for the defence that has been put up by our gallant sons neither he nor any of us might have been here to-day in the House of Commons. There is a fundamental difference between us in regard to the War. We do believe in freedom, in peace, and in achieving an understanding between democracy, but when democracy is attacked and when freedom is attacked we believe in fighting to retain them.

That is what we are doing at this moment. We are fighting for those things. The hon. Member may sneer if he likes. We are willing to take our share in coming to an understanding with the democracies of Europe in order that we may bring this War to an end, if possible, by understanding. We are willing to combine diplomatic with military needs to bring the War to an end. We never supposed that when the sword was drawn and the guns began to rattle that there never would be a chance of an understanding being brought about and achieved by other means. But with whom are we to negotiate? This is not a private quarrel. It is not a mere personal misunderstanding such as can be arranged by two people, as was suggested by the hon. Member for Leicester. We cannot come into touch with the German Reichstag. We cannot negotiate with the German Reichstag. The Reichstag has no right and no power at the present moment to bind the German people, and is it seriously suggested that there is some subtle means by which an understanding can be come to between the people of Germany and the peoples of the Allies short of and independent of their Governments, which still must, until they are changed, be their rightful and lawful representatives? I know of no such means. Those who profess to speak for peoples must have the power to bind the peoples for whom they speak. Is it suggested that in any International Socialist Conference, or conversation, or wayside-house talk, or whatever you like to call it, there is any possibility of coming to an understanding that would bind either the Allies or our enemies? While such conversations might clear away some misunderstandings, it is not the misunderstandings with regard to such questions as annexations and indemnities which are preventing peace; it is the fundamental difference that still remains between us and the German people and the German Government. It must be remembered that the German people in this are with their Government. They are not fighting for democracy. They are not fighting for freedom. They do not destroy their own shackles. What is more, they, are seeking to impose the shackles of the German Government upon other nations and upon other peoples.

So far as I am concerned, I want to see some sign of an alteration, a real, genuine alteration, an alteration that will show fruit meet for repentance, such, for in stance, as the First Lord of the Admiralty mentioned the other day. Let them get out of Belgium. Let them go back across the Rhine, then we shall know whether they are sincere or not in their desire for no annexations. Is it suggested that they are simply staying there for bargaining purposes? The test of sincerity is how people behave. Although with some parts of this Resolution I could vote with a free conscience and quite easily, the Resolution has no real bearing upon the situation in which we found ourselves in Europe to-day. If it is carried it will not have the effect such as the hon. Member thinks it will have, because the German Reichstag counts not with the German people. It is the German Emperor, who still is the first war lord, and it is upon his will and pleasure that the German people still wait and for which they still fight. My hon. Friends who have moved this Motion are not entitled to put themselves upon the pedestal which they have hitherto sought to occupy: that they are the only people who genuinely desire peace, the only people who want to bring an end to this war, and the only people who care for freedom and democracy. The British Labour party has never been jingo, never been imperialistic, and never been aggressive. It wants to live at peace with all the world, and in these desires we share the views of the large majority of the people of these islands, and it is because we believe the Government desire these views that I, for one, cannot support the Resolution.

The references of the Leader of the Labour party to questions regarding the Labour party have been dealt with by my hon. Friends. I should like to make some observations in regard to the speech which has been made by the Leader of the Liberal party (Mr. Asquith). We who have been listening to that speech from these benches heard parts of it with a good deal of pleasure and satisfaction. I think it is the greatest approach to our views that has yet been contained in anything said by the Leader of the Liberal party, but, at the same time, in my view, there were certain defects in that speech to which I should like to draw attention. The Leader of the Liberal party asked a good many questions of the German Chancellor and the German Reichstag. He complained that many of those questions had never been answered, but at the same time he failed to answer the questions which have been put to us by the German Reichstag. My hon. Friends who have spoken have indicated the concessions which they believe the German Reichstag is willing to make. I think we have also to take into account the fact that the German Reichstag, in return for those concessions, put forward certain requests; but the Leader of the Liberal party failed to take any notice of those requests. They say they want peace, but at the same time they let us know that they will not accept peace unless they can secure access to the raw materials of the world and a fair share of Colonial possessions.

What is the view on that subject of the Leader of the Liberal party? He uttered certain generalisations. He stated that the notion that this country stood for annexationist aims was a nightmare, and that we had no schemes of territorial aggrandisement. Does he apply that to the possession of the German Colonies? My view is that those are reasonable demands on the part of the Reichstag, and that it would be a most discreditable and a most dishonourable thing if this country, which entered this War with the name of Justice on its lips, were to come out of it with 1,000,000 square miles added to the British Empire.

But the Reichstag Resolution asked further questions. It raised this issue, quite apart from the German Colonies What is to be in future the economic policy in our own Colonies and in those of our Allies? I think this War affords an opportunity for us to lay down a new principle about these questions. We should lay it down that when a European nation possesses itself of the territory of a primitive race, it should do so as a trustee for civilisation, and with absolutely no motive of financial gain. We should definitely propose that in British' colonies, German colonies, and French colonies the granting of concessions and of opportunities for the investment of capital and economic exploitation should be taken out of the hands of the Government of the colony, which would always favour its own compatriots, and should be put into the hands of an international board, so as to secure equality of opportunity to every nation. I believe that if we were to do that we should remove all reason for European rivalry and wars, which has been more potent than almost any other single cause. What has been the opinion of the Leader of the Liberal' party on that question? That is not the policy of the Government. It is not a policy which he himself initiated. The policy of the Government up to the present is that Germany and Austria are to be penned in behind a tariff wall. They are to be cut off from colonial markets or European markets by an Allied combination. The Leader of the Liberal party says he wants a permanent peace. The Minister of Blockade told us two days ago that he wanted international barriers against a repetition of this War. How can you get a permanent peace, how can you erect international barriers upon a foundation of commercial boycott and economic wars? I am told the Leader of the House has within the last ten days pledged himself afresh that this shall be the policy of the country after the War. There is nothing which has done so much to consolidate the German people and to help the German militarists as the announcement of that policy. If the Government persists in it it is heading straight for another war, because neither the German nor any other nation ever will, or ought to, submit to being the subject of a commercial boycott by the majority of mankind.

When some of the old cries, such as the knock-out blow, are beginning to lose their force, there has arisen quite lately a new cry, not heard of a few months ago, which was not contained in the Allied Note to the United States. The latest reason for which young Englishmen are to be mutilated and to die is to establish democracy in Germany. I am as great a believer in democracy as the War Cabinet, as Lord Milner, or as Lord Curzon. I am both gratified and amazed to see their sudden enthusiasm for democracy in Germany. But I believe that the establishment of democracy in Germany and the dethronement of Prussian militarism will depend not upon the length of the War but upon the terms of peace. Give the German people a peace which will show them that Prussian militarism is not necessary. Abandon all these ideas of Colonies and conquests and economic war. Show the German people that they have nothing to fear from the ambitions of rival Powers and that German militarism is therefore not needed for their security or their legal rights. That will set their hands free. That will make them independent of the system. And when you have done that I believe that they can deal with the German military system better than we can with the autocratic powers of the Hohenzollern line. It is now a few months since I first expressed in this House the opinion that the Government ought to enter into negotiations. My own opinion has been for some time that the first genuine opportunity of bringing this War to an honourable and a satisfactory close came as long ago as last September, when it was understood that President Wilson was willing to intervene. But the great break through on the Somme was then about to take place, and the present Prime Minister answered that the War must go on and on until Germany was knocked out. That interview, in my opinion, was one of the supremest acts of folly in the history of the world. Another opportunity came in December, when the Note from the Central Empires arrived, but the great, supreme, combined offensive on all fronts at once was going to take place in the spring, and that opportunity was refused. We are in the midst of that great combined offensive now, but the knock-out blow seems further away than when the original boast was made. Now a third opportunity has come, and I believe that if the Government rejects it it will find itself immediately face to face with the greatest disaster in the history of the War.

This Debate concerns not only Germany. It concerns Russia. What is the situation there? How has the Government dealt with the situation? The new Russia abandoned all the Imperialistic aims of old Russia. There is every reason to believe that so far as the moderate aims of the new Russia are concerned they could have been obtained by a separate peace two months ago. But the new Russia wants no separate peace. It is inspired by a moral ideal, and the new Russia wants to take the lead in a general peace both now and in the future for all mankind. The public hero of our Press at the moment is Mr. Kerenski. Mr. Kerenski has most solemnly pledged himself to the Russian people and to the Russian soldiers that he will not call upon them to continue to fight unless the Allies, as the preliminary to a general peace, publicly announce that they abandon all projects for colonies and conquests and economic war. Are you going to announce it? If the Government does not announce it it pronounces Mr. Kerenski's doom. It drives Russia straight into the hands of those who want a separate peace. However much you may try to delude the public, however much you may try to discount that in advance by saying Russia does not count, that will be the greatest disaster in the history of the War. The newspapers are full now, in their accounts of Russia, with stories about German gold. That is getting to be a very cheap and threadbare cry. All the German gold in the world has not done as much harm in Russia to the cause of the Allies as the insulting series of articles in the "Times" directed against the leaders of the Revolution, as the policy of the Government, or as speech after speech delivered from that box—speeches such as that with which the Prime Minister greeted the Russian Revolution when he told us that the purpose of it was to get on with the War; speeches such as that of the Leader of the House when his main interest seemed to be concentrated upon sympathy for the Czar; speeches such as that made in the last Russian Debate by the Minister of Blockade, a speech which was delivered on a Thursday, and which, owing to the outcry in Russia, had to be contradicted and practically apologised for on the Monday.

The speech made by the Minister for Blockade on 16th May, in reply to my hon. Friend's Amendment in regard to welcoming the Russian Revolution. If the Government is going to accede to the Russian demand, it ought to express its complete and full agreement with the Amendment which is now before the House. If it does not express that agreement, it will mean that this will be the latest of that series of blunders which have alienated Russia from the Allies, and we shall imperil the whole future of the War.

I do not think the House will regard it as necessary that I should detain them for a long time in dealing with the subject which we are discussing this afternoon. This is, I think, the fourth Amendment of the same kind which has been moved by the Gentlemen who sit on that bench below the Gangway. On each occasion they have endeavoured to make the House believe that there was something new which gave their views a force to which attention should be given then, and, in this case now, which was not given to them earlier. But on each occasion I believe every Member of the House who looks back on the three years of war, and realises what is going on in the world to-day, will have felt, as I have felt, that these Gentlemen are living in a world of unreality and have no conception of the real issue which is being fought out to-day. Take the speech of the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down. We are to get democracy in Germany; we are to get Germany to do everything in the way we would all like her to do it, and as every good nation ought to do it, by giving her everything she wants, by telling her we will not in any way interfere with her. In other words, after these three years of war we are being told, as if nothing had happened, that there is no danger of war if you treat Germany well. All you have to do is to make no armaments of your own, so as not to threaten Germany, and then you can rely on the peace of the world for all time. If that kind of view is right, then indeed this Government, this House, and this country have been guilty of the greatest crime which has ever been committed in the history of the world. We have found—and this is the essence of it all, which they forget—that Germany entered into this War because she deliberately came to the conclusion that it would add to the greatness of Germany, and that the time had come for war. That is the issue. It is not a struggle between one kind of Imperialism and another—that is, I think, what these hon. Gentlemen always forget. It is not that kind of thing. It is not even a struggle, as the late Prime Minister said, between brute force and freedom. It is a struggle for something higher than even this. It is a struggle between right and wrong. It is a war to decide whether moral force or wickedness is to rule the world in the days to come.

The hon. Gentleman who spoke last dealt with Russia as if he alone and his Friends had sympathy with what had happened in Russia. He is quite mistaken. I have said before in this House, and the Government share the same feeling, that we have known all our lives what despotic power in Russia meant. We have all heard too much of Siberia and the horrors of Siberia not to rejoice when that came to an end. and we could feel that the great people that was in this struggle from the beginning was going to be with us at the end, but at the end as one of the great free peoples of the world, with that freedom that has been won as a consequence of this War. I was rather surprised at something said by the hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment. He said we will drive Russia out of the War, and that Russia could make a separate peace to-morrow. The Member for Leicester said there is no analogy between the Russia of to-day and the struggle of France at the time of the revolution for her liberty. I entirely disagree with both propositions. Does anyone believe that if German militarism should triumph,. to which probably they still look forward, and the military power of German were re-established under the old system, and that we who are fighting them were able to fight no longer, do they believe, and does Russia, believe that the freedom of Russia could last for a single month under conditions such as those? They are fighting just as much as are we, and more, for their freedom, and I do not despair of them. I do not despair of the part Russia is going to play in this War, even under present conditions. The hon. Gentleman referred to the French Revolution. Who can foretell what day by day may be brought forth in a country seething with revolution? This at least we know from past experience, and the experience of France, that once a free Government does get control, and exercises it, it possesses a power over its people to make them fight for liberty greater than was possible under any other rule, and we can still hope for that in the case of Russia.

The hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment regretted that a special day could not be given for this Debate. That would have been impossible, as I explained, owing to want of time, but I should not have given it in any case. I think it would have represented a view on my part as to the importance of their movement which is out of all proportion to its real weight. I do not think they need hesitate about voting because of the conditions under which this Amendment is moved. Clearly the hon. Gentleman who seconded the Amendment said that its object was that the House of Commons should make the Government change its policy. All their speeches indicate that. You cannot take a vote in a more effective way than by an Amendment on this Bill. I would venture to say to the hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway—and I assure them I am not at all endeavouring to make a point—that from the point of view in which I regard the present situation—perhaps I will develop it a little more in a minute—they can render no greater service to the cause of peace than by showing to the world how small are the numbers of those who advocate the views which they represent. The new situation which they bring forward to-day is the Resolution in the Reichstag. There is one curious feature to be noticed in the terms of this Amendment. The hon. Gentleman gave us a full translation of that Resolution, but in the Amendment based on the Resolution there was one curious omission. The Resolution contains these words, "one of the conditions is freedom of the seas." That does not appear in the Amendment. What does that mean? My right hon. Friend the late Prime Minister explained the circumstances in which this Resolution was passed. It came as the result of a crisis. Attempts were made to get something which would settle that crisis, and do not let the House mistake for a moment that these words, to which no importance is attached by those who move this Amendment, were one of the features which enabled a large section of the Reichstag to vote for his Resolution. What do they mean by freedom of the seas? It has only one meaning. It does not arise in time of peace. It arises in time of war, and this is the meaning of it, and it can have no other, that in war a nation with naval power is not to use that power, but a nation with military power is to be subject to no restrictions. I should like some explanation of what that means. But it is complained that we have not made enough of this Resolution. It is not because we do not notice it, it is not because, so far as I am concerned, we do not rejoice in it, because it does indicate a change in the feeling of Germany. But what effect should it have on us who are considering this stage in the War? The hon. Member for Leicester gave us an answer; he said the Reichstag has not one atom of the authority which is possessed by the House of Commons. That is true. What then is the good of our basing anything on the Resolution of a body which does not exercise the smallest power, when we know that those against whom we are fighting are controlled by others who are not guided by these views and are not influenced in the least by any resolution of anyone? The Member for Leicester told us that the Resolution was passed just before the new Chancellor came in and could be taken as marking down the limits of his policy. Let me read to the House the views of the leader of the minortiy Socialists. Every newspaper almost in Germany has given a different account of this Resolution, which is supposed to mean something that will please everybody. This is what the gentleman to whom I have referred says, I wish the House would follow my point, as to the German Chancellor being bound to be guided by these Resolutions. This is what he said:

It was Herr Haase, the Leader of the Minority Socialists in the Reichstag. That is his view as to the effect of the Resolution to which we have referred. This is the position. We have the Reichstag passing this Resolution. It exercises, as is admitted, no power whatever on the action of the German Government, and immediately after this Resolution the new Chancellor came in, and he lays down with authority what the policy of the German Government is. And let this be remembered, his speech contains this, that he would not have taken up his office if supreme control were not to rest in his hands. That is what the Reichstag Resolution means in actual fact. Remember, the crisis is not altogether over. He is trying still to say something to please all parties, and he says that "the peace that they can have is the peace of those who have successfully carried through their purpose." That is to say, that we are not to aim at a peace through victory, but the German Chancellor puts that as the first condition of any peace which he is to secure. Look at it a little further. He says, first of all, that the territory of the Fatherland must be inviolate. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister was found fault with because of a phrase in his speech about the security of German frontiers. I ask the House to follow it. If the German Chancellor meant the security of German frontiers within the limits of Germany before the War there was nothing more to be said, that would have been enough. The security of German territory would have covered that. But he goes on to say—

That is something in addition to the inviolability of German territory. What does that mean? When those hon. Gentlemen say to us, "Please state your aims," there is a great deal in that. I do not profess for a moment that the changes which have taken place since this War began, especially what has happened in Russia and the addition of America, does not make an alteration. But those hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway speak as if they could answer for the German Reichstag and the German Government. I wish they were in that position, as I would put to them some questions. They ask us to restate our aims; they tell us that Germany is quite ready for a reasonable peace. Why have they never put down their peace aims at all in any shape or form? Ours may have gone too far, but, at all events, we had the courage to state them before the world. Germany has never done anything of the kind; and why? Because she does not mean what those hon. Gentlemen say she means, and because that would be found out the moment any peace terms were put in black and white. I have said that the aims—the declared aims—in a war like this must change, but in essence the aims are the same to-day as in the first speech which was made by the late Prime Minister at the Guildhall. They are the same. What are they? We are fighting for the freedom not only of ourselves—though that is the essence of our life—we are fighting for the rights of other nations besides Germany to live their lives in their own way. That is one of them. We are fighting also—that arose at the very beginning—to drive Germany out of Belgium, which they invaded not only against treaties, but with a degree of horror which has certainly never been seen in Europe since the Thirty Years-War and which would have been believed impossible until this War occurred—till they have been driven out of Belgium, and, what is more, till they have made reparation, so far as reparation still can be made, for the cruel and undeserved wrongs which they have inflicted on the Belgian people. [An HON. MEMBER: "And on others!"] It is the same with the North of France. We talk so much of Belgium that I think we forget that horrors of the same kind, the taking of people into slavery, have been committed in the North of France as well as in Belgium.

We are fighting to have that all redressed, so far as it can be redressed, and I would say to those Gentlemen below the Gangway, and if any of them speak: I would like them to answer the question when they speak, whether, when they speak of no indemnities and no annexation they mean that we should accept peace and ask France to accept peace with no reparation for the intolerable wrongs which have for so long been inflicted on her. I would ask them to answer the question more definitely. They say "no annexations." The people of France have spent their blood and their treasure with a generosity and a heroism and a steadfastness which few people would have given them credit for before the War. I will ask this question. Alsace-Lorraine was dragged from France as the result of war. Do these hon. Gentlemen say, when they demand no annexations, that Alsace-Lorraine is still to be held by force in the German Empire, though it was torn away from France by arms and arms alone? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer!"] They will answer in their speeches I am sure, and, to do them justice, they have never been afraid to express their opinion.

I come now to what is the real aim, so far as this country is concerned, in this War. I have thought from the beginning, and I repeat now, that the one thing we are fighting for is peace, and security for peace in the time to come. My right hon. Friend the late Prime Minister expressed only what was passing through my mind when he said that no more absurd claim could be made than that it is those who are called pacifists who have the strongest longing for peace. That is not true. Those of us who had any responsibility have before our minds very clearly what happened in the last days of July and the early days of August, 1914. I remember, for one, speaking to the Foreign Secretary in his room a fortnight or three weeks before war was declared and saying to him that so far as I could judge or speak for myself, or speak for anyone else, this country was not going to be dragged into war over any squabble in the East of Europe. We watched these negotiations with an anxiety as great as that of right hon. Gentlemen who were in the Government. In the end we came to the conclusion that just as it takes two to make a quarrel it takes two to prevent war, and if one nation is determined upon it, then war must come, whatever efforts are made for peace by the other. That was our belief. This country was forced into the War. In looking back on these three years now, I at least am prepared to say, with all the knowledge of all the suffering it entails, that we had no alternative and that we had either to do it or cease not merely to hold a position among the nations of the world, but to cease to defend the very principles on which civilisation depends.

We want peace now, but how are we to get it? I do not wish to say anything to imply that a real lesson, a real, sincere lesson, is not being taught to the German people by the sufferings through which they are passing, but I ask the House to remember this: This is towards the end of the third campaign of this War. In the first campaign Germany was carrying everything before her. Was there any suggestion of a peace from the German Reichstag then? The second campaign still looked as if things were going well. Was there any sign of the kind of declaration to which we have had our attention called to-day? It came only when it. began to look as if Germany was going to be beaten in this War, and I can say to the House and to those hon. Gentlemen that if they wish to get a real peace-feeling in Germany, that if they wish to get the views expressed in this Resolution brought into some practical effect, the way to do it is not by indicating that there is any weakening in the will or the power of the people of this country, but by showing that we mean to go on until the end is attained. That is what was meant when the late Prime Minister spoke about one of the objects of the War being the destruction of German militarism. It is a vague phrase, and it would have been difficult at any time to explain exactly what it means, but this is what, in my opinion, it means, and that is still what we are fighting for, and if we do not secure it we shall have been beaten in this War. It means this: Here we had for at least twenty years a great military Power, controlled ultimately by one man, which hung as a shadow over the world as a vast thunder cloud which might burst at any moment. I say we are fighting for peace in the time to come. If a patched up peace comes now with that German military machine still unbroken, still in the hands of the same people who directed it for the twenty years before the War, have we any security? I think we have the reverse. Have we any security that the same danger which has ruined this generation will not ruin our children when this War is over?

If that happens, as I say, we shall have lost this War; but there is another way in which German militarism can be put an end to, and perhaps it is a better one. There is a great difference, I admit, and I have always felt, between the German people and the German Government. I am going to speak frankly. I have read a great deal of German literature before the War, and undoubtedly, in my view, the old spiritualistic ideals which were so marked in the classic German writers had given place to the most cruel materialism as the result of the Franco-German war. In my belief, not only the German Government, judging by the Franco-German war, but the German people, had come to look upon war, upon successful war, as one of the best and quickest steps in the growth and greatness of the people to which they belong. I think that is true. We shall not have peace in the time to come unless the German people are convinced that war does not pay, that their greatness and development must be found in other directions and not in plunging the world into war. In my view that is the whole case. Do not let anyone imagine that it is the duty of a member of the Government to try to support the courage of the people of this country by expressing views which he does not feel.

I say that the crisis in which we stand to-day is a dangerous one. What has happened in Russia makes a great difference. I still hope, and, indeed, I believe that Russia has not said her last word in this War. But the position is dangerous: All the nations of the world—all the nations engaged in this struggle—are staggering under the burden. Do not let there be any mistake! The resources possessed by this country and our Allies are sufficient to make absolutely certain that, unless our hearts fail us now, we shall secure the results for which we entered into this War, and upon which, possibly, the future of this country and of the world depend. Let me read to the House a statement of what is the feeling in Germany. This account was sent to us by one of those who supply us with information. The statement points out that the condition in Germany is bad. It was known to be bad. But our informant says this:

I rise at once to respond to the request of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. I will not detain the House for long, but I shall deal with the questions he has put to me and perhaps with a few other points which have been raised in the course of the Debate. I would turn first to the question which the Leader of the House addressed to me personally. He wants to know what we mean by using the phrase "No indemnities and no annexations." In the Debate on the last Consolidated Fund Bill two or three months ago a good part of the time was taken up in dealing with the interpretation of those two phrases. The meaning we attached to them was stated by more than one Member from these Benches. I have no hesitation in responding to the appeal of the right hon. Gentleman to repeat what we understand is the meaning of these phrases, "No indemnities and no annexations." The right hon. Gentleman put the question; of "no indemnities" in some such form as this: that we meant to use that phrase as implying that no compensation and no reparation was to be given to devastated Belgium and the Northern parts of France. The right hon. Gentleman assumed—and I think correctly—that he might expect a straightforward answer to that question. I will give him a straightforward answer. We believe that compensation ought to be given to Belgium. We believe that Belgium should be fully restored. In regard to the general question of compensation outside Belgium, I think the proposal which has been made by the Russians, and which has been given as an interpretation of the phrase, is perhaps the best way of dealing with the matter. That is, that a general fund, to which all the belligerents shall contribute, should be created, and that this should be distributed by some International Commission, and that each of the belligerent nations should contribute out of this general fund in proportion to its ascertained responsibility for that damage. [Laughter.] I do not think it is very complimentary for patriotic Members of this House to laugh and sneer at the interpretation of that phrase which has been given by the present Prime Minister of Russia, whose advent to high office was welcomed so heartily by the Prime Minister on Saturday last. The Leader of the House also asked me to reply in regard to the use of the phrase "no annexations." What, he asked, would we do in the case of Alsace-Lorraine? That is, indeed, a very easy question to answer. The late Prime Minister—in the course of his speech this afternoon—I think I am expressing the impression that was made upon my Friends as well as upon myself by that speech, when I say we regarded it as a very great improvement upon some of the speeches which the right hon. Gentleman has contributed to debates of a similar character to this. The late Prime Minister endorsed the suggestion that each nation and each people should be given the right to decide the sovereignty and government under which they would live. If we accept that, that settles the question of Alsace-Lorraine.

The right hon. Gentleman said that Alsace-Lorraine was forcibly taken from France by Germany about forty-five years ago. But the right hon. Gentleman knows quite well that for 800 years that particular part of Europe was the cockpit of contending ambitions, and that during those years it was repeatedly transferred from one sovereignty to another; and previous to the last occasion, when it was held by France. Therefore the other part of the formula, "that the people should have the right to decide their form of government," would solve the question of Alsace-Lorraine. Let the people of Alsace-Lorraine decide this question. And I may add, for the information of the right hon. Gentleman, if he is not already acquainted with the fact, that the French Socialists have recently passed a resolution subscribing to that as the best way of dealing with the difficult problem of Alsace-Lorraine.

I said the French Socialists. I am dealing with the French Socialists. [An HON. MEMBER: "The answer is in the negative!"] I am dealing with the French Socialists who made the declaration to which I have referred. I am aware that the German Socialists—that is, the majority Socialists—have made no explicit declaration, but the German minority Socialists have. They have subscribed to the same declaration 'as the French Socialists—namely, that this matter should be referred to the decision of the people themselves. May I ask whether the British Labour party, or the Tory party, or the Liberal party, have subscribed to that? What did the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs say the other day in regard to this matter? Speaking in this House a day or two ago he dealt with this question, and he said it was for the French people themselves to say what they wanted in regard to Alsace-Lorraine. Whatever the French people decided in the matter it was for the British people to back them up. Are the resources of this country, are the lives of our countrymen, to be placed at the disposal of whatever the people of France say in regard to this matter or the Government of France? Did we enter into this War for the purpose of settling a quarrel between Germany and France in regard to Alsace-Lorraine? An hon. Member asked me just now what was the view of the German Socialistic Democratic party. I ask him what is the view of the British House of Commons upon this question? What is the view of the British political parties upon this question?

Where is that going to lead you to? Standing by your friends has, in two and a half years, meant a sacrifice of hundreds of thousands of lives! Standing by your friends has meant standing by the autocratic Government of Russia for two and a half years, and the renewal of secret treaties that the House of Commons does not yet know. That is what standing by your friends means. It means that the Government of this country is to be committed to any extravagant and unreasonable demand that may be put forward by any of its Allies.

Surely a more absurd, ridiculous, and preposterous commitment than that was never made by the spokesmen of any Government. I say that I ant not prepared to sacrifice the life of a single. English soldier for the sake of giving back these two provinces to France.

The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House has asked me to give a reply to these two questions. I have done so. I think he will give me credit that my reply lacks nothing in straightforwardness. Now, I want to deal with one or two other points that have been raised.

I am going to refer to that matter before I sit down. If we had had any hesitation at all before the right hon. Gentleman rose about taking this matter into the Division Lobby, that hesitation has been removed by what the right hon. Gentleman has said. Certainly we shall take the thing into the Division Lobby. The right hon. Gentleman said that the number of votes we should get in the Division Lobby would expose the smallness of the support that we have here. It will expose the smallness of the support we have in the House of Commons. But it will do something besides that. It will disclose the fact that the majority of the Members of the House of Commons do not want, do not strive for, a peace with understanding and a lasting reconciliation with the nations. It will show that they do not want a peace which repudiates all the plans which aim at the economic isolation of Germany; that they want a peace which will tie down the nations after the War. That is what going into the Lobby against this Resolution will mean. The British House of Commons, by defeating this Resolution to-day, will declare, not only to Germany, but to the Allies, and to the rest of the world, that it does not want a reasonable peace.

The time has come for plain speaking upon this question, and I do not hesitate to say, after the speech of the Leader of the House this afternoon, that it is the British Government more than any other of the belligerents now at war which is standing in the way of an early settlement. An hon. Member asks: Why did America come into the War? The capitalists and financiers of the United States will be able to give an answer to that. I was dealing with the natural impression which would be made upon the minds of neutrals and upon the minds of the people in enemy countries by the vote which the House of Commons will give to-night, but that is not the first time that the action of the House of Commons and the Government has been of the greatest possible assistance to the enemy. My hon. Friend the Member for Northampton dealt with the action of the Government and the policy of the Government since the Russian Revolution. A great deal might be said in addition to what my hon. Friend said. It began with a speech in which the Leader of the House moved a Resolution of congratulation on the Russian Revolution—a speech which was marked far more by sympathy with the overthrow of autocracy than with the new-born democracy of Russia. The right hon. Gentleman shed tears at the overthrow of the Czar, and expressed his lachrymose sympathy with His late Imperial Majesty. And then, by other acts, for which the Government have been responsible, they have created the impression in Russia that the Government of Great Britain have little sympathy with Russia in its new-born freedom and in its war aims.

To mention one further matter. Take the question of the desire of two of my hon. Friends to get to Russia. They were frustrated in that intention by the action of officials of a trade union. The Leader of the House, in a Debate on an Adjournment Motion upon this matter, stated that representations had been made by the British Minister at Petrograd, and by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. Henderson), who was then in Petrograd, that it was most desirable that my two hon. Friends should proceed to Russia at once. What have the Government done in order to facilitate my two hon. Friends getting to Russia? They have done nothing at all, and by their complacency they have endorsed the action of the Seamen's Union.

What does the hon. Gentleman suggest we should have done? It did not occur to us we could do anything except prosecute. Would he have recommended us to do that?

I will answer that, first of all, in this way: I understand the Prime Minister is now away in France, accompanied by the Foreign Secretary and other members of the Government. Supposing the Seamen's Union had held them up and prevented their proceeding to France, what would the Government have done? I will now give a direct answer. The right hop. Gentleman asked me what the Government could have done. The Seamen's Union executive passed a resolution for the removal of the embargo. Next day they had a joint conference with a number of other seafaring bodies, and a very prominent official of the union stated at that conference—the right hon. Gentleman will find the speech reported in the Press—that they were only waiting for the Government to say the word; that they would not remove the embargo at the request of some person who had not the full authority of the Government, but if the Government would say the word then the embargo would be removed at once. The effect of this in Petrograd has been bad. It has come on the top of a great many other acts by the Government which have created a suspicion, amounting now to a firm conviction, in the minds of the Russian democracy that our Government is not in sympathy with them in their new-found freedom, and in their war and peace aims. Now the right hon. Gentleman took the line one would naturally expect him to take of depreciating the value of the Reichstag Resolution by talking about the non-representative character of the Reichstag, and the fact that the Reichstag has not the Parliamentary power which constitutionally this House of Commons possesses. The late Prime Minister really must have forgotten for a moment recent events when, dealing with this same point, he said that the new German Chancellor had not been elected by the Reichstag. Surely the recent political experience of the right hon. Gentleman ought to have prevented him from committing himself to a statement like that. When was the right hon. Gentleman elected to any of the responsible positions he has held in recent years? I remember an occasion, I believe a little more than two years ago, when from that bench the late Prime Minister, in reply to a question, said that there was no idea of forming a Coalition Government, and that he did not think the House of Commons would approve if such a proposal were made. That was on a Wednesday afternoon. On the following Monday the Coalition Government was formed, but the House of Commons had never been consulted as to whether a Coalition Government should be formed or as to the selection of a single Minister for any office of State.

As a matter of fact, the control of the House of Commons over the Executive is only nominal, and it was never less in effect than it is to-day. Why, only two or three days ago, we had an illustration in an Amendment to a Bill now before the House which showed that the House of Commons is not even free to express its views upon what is, compared with great Imperial matters, a small domestic matter. It was the question of the minimum wage for agricultural work. If the House of Commons had been free to vote according to its own sympathies and its own feelings on the question, it would without a doubt—I do not believe any Member of the House will differ from me—by an overwhelming majority have put 30s. into the Bill. The Government, however, got a two-to-one majority against that Amendment. How? By threatening the House of Commons with a General Election if they voted according to their opinions and desires. And so it is in far greater matters. The right hon. Gentleman spoke about the origin of the War, and if he and the Leader of part of the Labour party should speak on that topic again in the same afternoon I would suggest that they have a few minutes conversation in order to come to an agreement to say the same thing. The right hon. Gentleman, in dealing with the origin of the War, gave us a recital of the usual platitudes by which politicians in every country defend every war. There never was a war that was not a war for freedom, a war for democracy, a war for the maintenance of international treaties—all the platitudes which serve to obscure the real issues of this War are repeated again, but with less effect, as they have been repeated from the first day of the outbreak of war. The right hon. Gentleman, when he talks about this War having originated from Germany's desire for world power, might ask the Leader of part of the Labour party to put before him a resolution that was passed by the Labour party after the War broke out, and subscribed to by the right hon. Gentleman's colleague the Member for Barnard Castle. In that resolution they stated the origin of this War, and they said the origin was that our Government, France, and Russia had made secret treaties and alliances behind the backs of the people, and particularly for the purpose of encircling and preventing the economic expansion of Germany. That, the Labour party and the right hon. Gentleman's colleague the Member for Barnard Castle said, was the origin of the War.

The right hon. Gentleman may go on talking the ordinary platitudes about this being a war for peace and freedom, but every day fewer people in the country are being gulled by talk like that. The right hon. Gentleman said that we represent a small and negligible opinion in this country. He began his speech by saying that we do not live in a world of realities. It is the Government who do not live in a world of realities. They do not know what is going on in the country. They do not know of the change that is rapidly coming over the minds of the people of this country. They know nothing of the scores of great demonstrations held in all parts of the country every week, attended by thousands of people, at which resolutions are unanimously passed denouncing the War and demanding that the Government shall at once enter into negotiations for peace. But surely if the Government are ignorant of that, they ought to know something of the discontent in the Army. They ought to know something of the change that has come over the opinions of soldiers on this question. The hon. Member for Mayo (Mr. Dillon), speaking in this House two days ago, spoke of what one might almost call a mutiny amongst the troops in (Salonika. Hundreds and thousands of soldiers are in prison through indiscipline. Every day I get letters from soldiers at the front, and they are all in the same tone. Letters recently have differed in one respect from letters I formerly got. Formerly they said, "For Heaven's sake, don't mention my name," but now they say, "You can publish this letter. You can print my name and address. I do not care who knows." Now that is the state of feeling, that is the disillusionment in the British Army to-day, and it is a great deal worse in France. If the Government know anything at all about the state of the French Army, they know that the solders have practically taken control of the Army, that they are refusing to obey orders, and any penetrating intelligence in France will tell you that if the War goes on very much longer we shall have in France what we have had in Russia. We shall have a revolution, for the French soldiers are already saying what the Russian soldiers declared, "We will not go into the trenches for what we think is a war having imperialistic aims and aggressions." The Leader of the House says we are living in. a world of unrealities. It is the Government who are living in a world of unrealities, and they will be rudely awakened before long.

The right hon. Gentleman this afternoon subscribed to the policy of attrition. What is the prospect before us then? Speaking in this House eighteen months ago upon a peace motion I put this question to the Government, after having dealt with the hopelessness of a military victory. I said, "If at the end of twelve or eighteen months the military situation is no more hopeful than it is to-day, what are you going to say to us; are you still going on?" I repeat that question today. As a matter of fact, from the military point of view, this War came to an end in October, 1914. There has practically been no change since then. We were told by Sir Douglas Haig at the beginning of the spring that he was going to break through the German lines, and three days after the Commander-in-Chief had published that foolish declaration to the world the War Office issued to the leading newspapers of this country a memorandum, a copy of which I have seen telling the newspapers that there was no hope of a military triumph during this summer, and that the policy of the newspapers should be to prepare the people for a war of attrition. What does a war of attrition mean? During the last twelve months we have had nearly a million casualties. Are the Government ready to tell us how many men we have lost in this War? But this we do know, according to the daily figures published by the War Office, that from the 1st of July last year, when that push began, up to the end of June this year the British had suffered 830,000 casualties. By this time it must be approaching a million, and for what military result?

So far as the hope of a military victory in this War is concerned, all those lives have been absolutely thrown away; and if you go on there is no more hope that at the end of another twelve months the military situation will be more hopeful than it is to-day. As a matter of fact it will not, but you will have sacrificed a million more men and added two or three thousand millions to the National Debt. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House told us not long ago that this country, rich as it is, could not indefinitely bear the strain of this enormous expenditure on the War. We are going to have a National Debt of £6,000,000,000 at the close of this financial year, and we are told this afternoon that we must go on and on and on until our enemy is exhausted. Palmerston once used the expression that it would be the man who could hold out ten minutes longest who would be successful, but at the end of that ten minutes that man, too, would be dead. And if this nation is going to accept the policy put forward by the Leader of the House this afternoon, then it means absolute ruin financially, and it means that we are going to continue the drain on one lives of the manhood of the nation for no practical purpose whatever. With all the strength at my disposal, Mr. Speaker, I protest against such a policy as that. In the name of our common humanity I say it is criminal, I say it is scandalous, and I will raise my voice against at. I say in the name of humanity we must stop this War now.

The hon. Member who has just spoken will forgive me if I do not follow the lines of thought with which his most eloquent speech closed, because I rather wish to bring the House back in the direction of the arguments with which the three first speeches to-night dealt. That was, What was the purpose of the Amendment on the Paper, and whether the House ought to accept it or not? The right hon. Gentleman who leads the House objected to the idea that this Amendment should be pressed, on the ground that it would show a weakening of the spirit of the House, and that it might weaken our chances of attaining our ends and the peace we desire. I want to support this Amendment quite frankly, for precisely the opposite reason, that I am sure it makes for the attainment of our ends. I ask for no weakening of our objects, but I ask for an intelligent understanding of the methods we must adopt and the statesmanship by which we must walk along our arduous path. Surely one simple fact stands out. The Reichstag has accepted by a large majority a Peace Resolution. The Governments of the different Powers may go on wrangling, may go on repeating the old arguments, with some of which I agree and some of which I disagree, but I am quite sure it is the business of the popular assemblies of all the Powers to recognise that Resolution of the Reichstag and to encourage the parties that passed that Resolution in the way they are going. Surely in the name of common-sense it is not our business to damp down people who pass such a Resolution. It is not our business to discourage them. It is our business in every way to encourage every atom of sanity we see in that nation. For that reason I support this Amendment quite frankly, and as apparently there is going to be a Division I shall certainly vote for the Amendment. The number of us will be small, and there is no question of embarrassing the life of the Government. I support this Government. I want it to exist; but I support this Amendment also, and since the procedure of this House involves a Division on the Second Reading of a Bill, that is not my fault. I frankly support the Amendment.

The argument has been advanced that the Reichstag Resolution is negligible because the Reichstag has no Executive power. I have seen in several papers the assertion that the Resolution itself was organised by the German Government; that it was a put up job. I think that is very probably true. I am quite prepared to believe it. But that makes it all the more significant. Surely it is a very remarkable fact, if it is true, that the German Government should think it worth while engineering a Peace Resolution in the Reichstag—I do not know for what object, unless it is that they themselves are preparing to move in that direction. I repeat that it is our business to hold out a corresponding Resolution, and to show that we receive what they pass gladly. We are told—it is a curious; cry in connection with this War—that we must now wait until Germany has an effective democracy. Anyone who looks back upon the assertions of our policy will remember the severely orthodox views of previous Governments in the early stages of the War that the internal affairs of Germany were not our concern. We were fighting for other objects, it was said, and their domestic affairs were their business and not ours. We are now having the opposite and very interesting point of view, with which I largely agree, that if only Germany were democratic we could treat with her very much more easily than we can in the present circumstances. While I think there is a great deal of truth in that, I think it would be bad statesmanship for us to wait until that time arrives before we attempt to deal with the German Government, be- cause, after all, what we are asking of the German Government is a somewhat excessive demand.

Personally, I believe profoundly that democratic government is not a government adapted for carrying on war. I always have believed it on general principles, and I do not think the experience of this War is such as to make anyone waver in that view. Germany, what does she see? On her East she sees a new democracy. Is that example one to induce her to change her Government in order to get greater stability and greater firmness in the conduct of the War? On the West she sees ourselves and France. I think we must have too strong a sense of humour to suppose that the example of our Government in the conduct of war—I am not accusing any particular Government, but just reflecting on the system—that our example is one that they are likely to follow. No doubt the German people have read copious extracts from the Dardanelles and Mesopotamia Report, and, what must be more to the point, they have no doubt, observed the increasing powerlessness of the Government in this country to govern. There is every sign of that being a steadily increasing process. We have definite pledges about National Service being made compulsory if the voluntary attempt fails, and nothing is done. We have strikes which we are told limit the output of aeroplanes, and no attempt is made to deal under the laws with the strikers. We now have the latest declaration of the unions that dilution will not be tolerated and we know the Government will give way there too. I refer to these things only to show that a strong autocratic Government is almost certainly the best for the conduct of war.

8.0 P.M.

Do you think that the German people at the moment they are conscious of grave dangers to their State, at the moment that they see themselves surrounded by numerous and powerful foes, are likely readily to change their whole Government? You are asking too much of them. I think you are rather asking them to be fools, and any policy based upon the theory that your enemy are fools is not a prudent policy to adopt. These things must be argued and talked about perfectly sensibly, and I really am surprised at the amount of heat they cause in this House, because if we are not prepared to bring the normal processes of reason to bear upon these problems we are likely to come to worse confusion. I should like the Government to tell the nation quite frankly, without any adornment of catch phrases, what special disadvantage they fear from negotiating with the German Government. I ask for no diminution of our aims at all, but I feel we ought to know to what extent there is at present a barrier between the fulfilment of our aims and peace. We are given all kinds of hypotheses and conjectures and people read extracts from papers—I should have thought we all knew know too much to trust very much to those—but we are unable to discover in any authoritative way how far our aims are now attainable and how far they are not. That is what I want found out. I am quite sure that in some degree our aims are already attained. The Leader of the House talked to-day about security against further aggression and security for an enduring peace. In these matters certainty is unattainable. At no stage of this War will it be attainable, and when you have got peace you will not feel absolutely secure of an enduring peace. But I do venture to say that, as regards that one point—security—we may already feel satisfied that we have attained it. That is the advantage of a war in which nations are in arms. Out in France we used to get a fairly large assortment of evidence, in the shape of letters, taken from prisoners, and from dead Germans; and the overwhelming evidence that the German people were sick of war, as such, was enough to convince anybody. I do not fear that in any country Governments will be able to renew war on this scale when it is once stopped. I should be prepared to insure people at a very low premium against a recrudescence of the European War in twenty years. I remember being rather surprised by the extent to which soldiers did detest war, to which there was a common bond of human detestation against the devilry of modern scientific warfare. I remember, when I was out, that I happened, when in a mess, to ask a certain Infantry major how long he thought it would be, when an armistice came, before the soldiers on both sides fraternised. I expected him to say that in about a fortnight they might be going over to each other and bringing each other cigarettes, or something of that kind His answer surprised me. He said, "Oh! five minutes; there is no animosity amongst the people actually fighting." That was an exceptional answer, and I do not think it would be at all fair to say that that answer was a universal answer. There are sections of the line where very bitter feelings prevail, but I have not the least doubt that that major spoke truly for his own men and his own section. You are not going to get a recrudescence of war after once you get a reasonable peace, and I contend that we have practically attained security.

As to other aims I do not want to speak to-day at all. I have never argued that this War must end before we have achieved our aims. I do not want in any way peace at any price, and nobody here does ask that; everybody has some price, and it is only that our prices differ. But I do want to advance, as an argument for receiving, with at least respect, the Resolution of the Reichstag, the rather special dangers that a war of attrition, one lasting two or three more years, has for this country. I have always been an optimist that, militarily speaking, we should be, able to bring off a military victory on the West before we were exhausted. I have no doubt of that. Still, if the War does go on another two years, does anyone deny that we are likely to be left a third-class Power? France will be well nigh ruined, and though I anticipate that we shall have made Germany and Austria fifth-rate powers, still, the general effect will be that all Europe will have suffered such deep wounds that the only net result will be the aggrandisement of Asia and America, at the expense of Europe. That is a thing which, as sane men, we must look at in considering the length of the War. But there is one special danger to the British Empire that does not apply to Germany. A modern industrial state can afford to lose population—I am speaking now in quite a cold, calculating, national way—in a way that an undeveloped country cannot. The thing is impressed upon you if you happen to have Australians fighting in front of you. You see these splendid fellows, of exceptionally fine physique, and you feel that they represent British stock more truly than almost anybody you come across; and you know, as these people are killed off, that in Australia there are vacancies that cannot be filled. In your developed industrial countries you can go on with a sort of life, with your women and children managing machines, and your economic disaster is less and your power of recuperation quicker than in the undeveloped countries. If we go on for many years with this War we shall find ourselves, with perhaps larger Imperial territories, but with a far smaller population to develop them. You cannot develop them with old men or with children; you must have men of the fighting age; you will have less resources in man power and in capital. That is a danger that faces this Empire from which the German Empire does not suffer; and I submit that a wise statesmanship will not forget that.

I want to come to one criticism of this Amendment. We are invited to state terms, and I, for my part, am grateful to the right hon. Member for East Fife for his statement, which was a distinctly helpful and clear utterance which, no doubt, will reach Germany. But there is this danger in the statement of terms, you cannot state terms with great precision, because the problems are much too complex. If you state them vaguely they are necessarily liable to misconstruction, and we have seen, in fact, that they are misconstrued. The chief result in Germany of the statement of our terms last January was that the German militarist party spread it throughout the country that we intended the break-up of the Austrian Empire. People over here said that that was not the intention—it could be read that way, it was true—but our real object was a far different one; but the militarists in Germany so represented it, and you only got misunderstandings and confusion. That is the perpetual difficulty in the way of a public statement of terms. The only point I desire to make at any length is: Why not a Conference of belligerents? I do not ask for it at the moment. You must have further Allied conferences first, but why should not the belligerent Powers, by their representatives, talk over these matters while the War is going on? Do not try for an armistice, which cannot work; but is there anything especially evil in men getting round a table to try and understand each other better, and to try to get some common understanding if they can reach it? What is the harm; that has been never very clear to me. There may be some reason, which I should like the Government to give. But what is the harm of a conference, which does not interfere with the progress of the War, and from which we can withdraw at any moment when we find it impossible to attain our ends? The Reichstag Resolution has given us reason to think, for the first time, in my judgment, that a conference would not necessarily be doomed to failure. I put it no higher than that; we should have everything to gain and nothing to lose. Let the House visualise the conference. I am not given to flattery, more especially of those who, in pre-war days, I should have called political opponents; but I believe the Noble Lord, who represents Hitchin has, in a quite exceptional degree, the confidence of the majority of all parties in this House. I picture him as one of our principal delegates at the conference. I picture him exploring most difficult positions, and perhaps, after a fortnight, finding that all agreement is impossible, coming back to this House and telling us on what points negotiation broke down. Do you not think that the immediate result of that would be a strengthening of the determination to prosecute the War with fresh vigour and a fresh understanding of the issues? On the other hand, it is conceivable that, after a few weeks, if it were clear that the fundamentals of agreement were possible, an armistice might arise, and after further months, peace might be declared. I do not put it higher; at the moment, perhaps, the chance might be small; by this Autumn, I think, the chance would be considerable. But, whatever the chance is, I see no harm in taking the risk, and the possibility of good. The House will forgive me if in these matters my thoughts dwell mainly in France. In the course of one's career one belongs to many communities; one is proud of one's school and one's college, and of one's constituency, and of membership of this House. But none of these communities occupy, in my mind, the place of the brigade in which I served, and in my views of all of these problems I am conscious of the influence of many talks with fellow subalterns and other officers. Let the House remember that soldiers, generally speaking, have something of a contempt for politicians. They do not understand the timidities, the dexterities, and the compromise and hesitations which they see in those whom they often regard as Press made puppets Can you wonder if, sometimes, they doubt whether statesmanship is really playing its part in this War, and pulling its weight in the attainment of our final end? Last November, when we were on the Somme, two colonels of quite separate units within a few days of each other happened to make to a friend of mine a remarkable statement. They said, "Well, if these disputes were only left to the Armies out here, there would be peace by Christmas"—that was referring to last Christmas. That was a slap-dash remark, and I think it did not realise the real difficulties of statesmanship that lie behind the problems of this War. But it does represent a real feeling, and a common feeling, that statesmen are indulging in these high wrangles in the game of intellectual battledore and shuttlecock and are not really throwing their weight into an attempt for an enduring peace. Are we quite sure amongst ourselves that we are quite frank—that obstinacy, popular applause and clamour or some catch-phrase or other do not sometimes divert us from our path? It is really time that we all of us, quite frankly and openly, said what is in our minds, and tried to bring something to the common stock in solving the problems that face the country. If the Government were to go into conference, and they failed, I can assure them, speaking for my friends in France, that if they failed, and brought back—as of course they would—a reasoned report of the difficulties and of the stiff-necked-ness of the modern Pharoah, they would certainly put new heart and fresh life, and fresh confidence in our Government, into many people in the Army.

One other thing the Army has seen, and that is that there are a number of conferences and gatherings and movements to and fro. Who are doing this? The Labour parties, the Churches and the Socialists. Let me give a quite sincere and grave warning to the Government. They are gradually allowing the control of international affairs to slip through their fingers in exactly the same way as they are allowing the control of internal affairs to slip through. That situation is serious. The Government must take their courage in both hands, for, after all, the courageous and straightforward path is generally the safest. I close with a sincere appeal to the Government to make an early try some time before the autumn, to see whether our real aims are not attainable by negotiation, and whether they cannot save our country from sinking in the general ruin of Europe even at the moment of a glorious military triumph. Even if you fail you have our thanks, and if you succeed you will have the blessings of ourselves and of posterity.

I think the time has arrived when men of moderate opinions should express their views and say what is in their minds. I represent a city which has made as great and heroic sacrifices in this War as any city in the United Kingdom, and I feel sure that I am expressing their opinion when I say that they are determined to continue this War to the last man and until the last shilling has been expended so long as our ideals and aims are based on right principles. I think they are equally unwilling to allow the War to go on for five minutes longer if our aims include territorial aggrandisement and military imperialism. I do not think we need have any quarrel with His Majesty's Government in regard to their policy. I cannot help thinking that the hon. Member who moved this Resolution and those hon. Members who have supported it have taken quite a wrong view of the Government, and I do not think they have done justice to the eminently reasonable and pacific speech which was delivered at Glasgow by the Prime Minister. In that speech the Prime Minister did what the late Prime Minister has never done—he made a speech which distinctly cleared the air. He told us what we are fighting for, and he told us what the Germans would have to do if they wished for peace. He told the Germans that they would have to restore Belgium, Serbia, and France, economically and politically, to the same position they were in before the War. If they would do that they could have peace. The Prime Minister also went further and removed all taint of aggressiveness from our policy, inasmuch as he said that if the Germans were willing to put aside their military ambitions and their greed and violence, if they were ready to agree that all international problems should become matters of free negotiation on equal terms between free peoples, questions like Mesopotamia and the future of the German African colonies should be considered by a great international conference not in the light of aggrandisement and plunder, but in the light of the building up of a better state of society. That speech made by the Prime Minister I do not think had received adequate justice either in the Liberal Press or in the Conservative Press or in the country generally, although, I think, it has had a very remarkable influence. I cannot help thinking that the more moderate attitude in the German Reichstag is a distinct move towards peace, and, however much it may be belittled, it is an undoubted fact, and no doubt it has led to the very reasonable speech made by the Prime Minister at Glasgow. That speech has undoubtedly done good in this country, because it has cleared the air, and it has made our people realise that, after all, the aims and objects of our Government are aims of high principle.

There are two or three points on which, I think, a statement of our war aims would be very desirable, and they are points on which a further declaration of policy would do us no harm, and would, on the other hand, tend to shorten this War. The first is the question of our attitude towards Austria. My Noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the night before last said that Austria was our lesser enemy, and that what has been said is merely platitudinous. But I cannot help thinking that it is not so platitudinous as my Noble Friend appears to imagine, because there is a small section in this House, active and influential, assisted by several very intelligent officials in our Government Department, who, as far as I can gather from their published document, do not by any means regard Austria as the lesser enemy. They say we shall lose the War unless Austria is broken up, and there will be no barrier against German military and economic expansion towards the East unless a greater Serbia is created, and consequently the Austrian Empire is to be divided into several portions. I cannot help thinking that if our object is to create a barrier against German aggressive designs towards the East, it is a very arguable proposition to say that the best way of creating that barrier is to break up the Austrian Empire.

I cannot help thinking, if our object is to make a barrier, that the best way is to secure a federated and democratised Austria. That would be a better barrier than a coterie of small states who would be economically and politically independent but who would also be economically and politically weak and subject to German designs and aggression. A federated and democratised Austria is at all events a better solution of the difficulty, because it has the merit of being a practical proposition, whereas the breaking up of Austria is not. It also has the advantage of being apparently what the Slav element of the Austrian Empire desire rather than to be separated out into small and independent kingdoms. We are told, however, that there cannot be a proper solution of the Balkan difficulty unless there is a greater Serbia and the Austrian Empire is broken up. There is no greater admirer than I am of the Serbian people, of the heroic way in which they have fought, and of the equally heroic way in which they have borne the many trials that they have had imposed upon them. I have an intimate acquaintance with what they have gone through, because for the last two years I have been chairman of the Serbian British Committee, and I think that this country would be covered with indelible shame if we sheathed the sword before Serbia was reconstituted both economically and politically. The same applies to Montenegro. But I cannot see that this country is called upon to fight for a greater Serbia, particularly as we have no certainty that it is what the populations desire. It would be a work of supererogation on our part. It would involve the breaking up of the Austrian Empire, and it would prolong our hostilities with Austria. I cannot help thinking that a declaration on the part of the Government to that effect would do a great deal of good.

There is another matter on which I cannot help thinking that the Government might make a clear declaration, and it is the question of Asia Minor. My Noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the day before yesterday said that the first principle that animates us is to stick to our Allies. That is an excellent principle and one to which I adhere as fully as possible, but we have also our own principles and our own ideals and, what is more, we have given adhesion to those ideals in many public declarations to the world, to the Americans, and to the Russians, and I must say that I do think we have a right to ask the Prime Minister, if he goes to meet our Allies, should frame his agreements and his policy consistently with those ideals. Unfortunately, the partition of Asia Minor, to which he has agreed, is entirely inconsistent with our peace ideals and it is inconsistent with our material needs. It prolongs the War against Turkey, consolidates our enemies and it weakens our alliances. I think we have a right to expect from His Majesty's Government a clear declaration that the partition of Asia Minor does not form part of our War aims.

There is also the question of the Economic Conference and the Paris Resolution's. And here I cannot help thinking that there is a very urgent need for a clear declaration on the part of His Majesty's Government as to how those Resolutions are to be interpreted. It is impossible to read the accounts of what is going on in Germany without coming to the conclusion that what is tending to keep the War feeling going in Germany, what is tending to consolidate the German people and to strengthen the authority of the military authority in Germany is the fear that when the War is over the Allies will engage in a policy of economic aggression against the German Empire. It is a very moot point how far the Paris Resolutions are responsible for that feeling. If they are to be interpreted in the moderate; and sensible manner in which the hon. Member for Hereford (Mr. Hewins) wishes them to be interpreted, merely as a means of defence and merely as the right of resuming our own economic independence, then nobody can find any fault with them. Nobody but a pedant in this country could object, and the German people could not very well object, if we in this country resumed the right which we always had and which we could have pursued at any moment before the War. If, on the other hand, the Resolutions of the Paris Conference are to be interpreted to mean that after this War we are going to engage in a war of economic aggression, that we are going to monopolise all our raw materials and engage in an economic boycott of the German and Austrian Empires, then that policy is open to the very gravest objection. It is most emphatically opposed to the declaration of the Prime Minister at Glasgow that the settlement should be a settlement which would be fair and equal to all, a settlement which nobody would wish to upset, because it is ridiculous to suppose, if we adopted a policy of economic aggression against German and a policy of monopolising our raw materials, that the Germans would accept it as a settlement leading up to a peaceable world. I cannot help thinking that the time has now come when His Majesty's Government should make a clear declaration as to how they interpret these Paris Resolutions. We have our rights with regard to our fiscal policy, but am quite sure that to say that we are going in for a policy of economic aggression will tend to throw power into the hands of the militarists and to prolong the War, and it is a declaration which will place a very serious responsibility on His Majesty's Government. I have ventured to bring forward three points—our policy with regard to Austria, our policy with regard to Asia Minor, and our policy with regard to the economic future after the War. I do not think they are points which are vital or necessary either to our interests or to our honour. Personally, nothing would please me more than for the Government to say that they have no intention of breaking up Austria, or of breaking up Asia Minor, or of engaging in an economic war against Germany after the War.

I have listened with great interest to the speech of my Noble Friend (Colonel Lord H. Cavendish-Bentinck), and on two or three points I am very much in agreement with him. He indicated, what must be admitted on all hands to be true, that our quarrel is not so much a quarrel with the Allies of Germany as it is with Germany herself. He indicated that it should be part of our diplomacy, and I believe the whole country will agree, to do everything in our power to make it clear to Turkey and Bulgaria, and even to Austria, that we would be prepared to consider the question whether they stand in a different position from that of Germany, our major enemy. I am probably speaking the views of the majority of the people of this country when I say that if there were any possible way of showing the Turkish Empire that we were prepared, so long as we saw that the German aggrandisement towards the East was prevented, to discuss the solution of our difficulties in that direction, that way should be taken. Nothing but good could come from that. We ought to take every opportunity of saying that our major quarrel is with the German Empire, and that we are ready at any time to consider any movement in our direction from any one of Germany's Allies.

We have listened to a very interesting discussion this evening, which has ranged over a multitude of topics in connection with the possible view points which might bring about a better 'understanding between the nations of the world. We. have had most eloquent speeches from the hon. Gentlemen who support this Amendment, pressing us to adhere to what is known as the "no annexations, no indemnities" formula. We must always primarily consider the interests of our own country, and the question how we are going to emerge from this War strong and safe from fresh militarism and fresh aggrandisement in the days to come. It is from that point of view that we must examine this formula. Everybody who has been a close student of the War is aware of the fact that Germany has a very great hold over Austro-Hungary, and over Bulgaria and Turkey. I wish we could do something to weaken the fetters which Germany has bound round her Allies. As things stand at present, we have to admit that those Allies of Germany are under German military domination; in other words, that Germany has literally, up to date, although she has conquered the spirit of none of her enemies, has conquered and dominated the military machine of her Allies. That is the danger we have to face in considering this question. Suppose Germany emerges from this War allied to Austro-Hungary, Bulgaria and Turkey in an economic and military union—and, so far as we can see, she will be for a long time to come, because of the financial dependence of those countries upon Germany—then is it not a fact that Germany will have actually won her first great war aim, namely, a Middle Europe and a German domination?

You have only to read the German writers—it would be well if many of our countrymen would start now, as they have never done before, to read the whole of German literature, of the last twenty years—to see that Germany's first ambition was to have a solid, united, military and economic federation, stretching from Hamburg to the Persian Gulf. Nobody will dispute that that was the first German ideal laid down by Bernhard and the 700 writers, all of whom had an enormous circulation in the few years before the War. We have to consider that, if the War were to end on the basis of "no annexations and no indemnities," from the German point of view, it would mean that Germany has won a military, political and moral victory, which is going to leave the German Empire with far greater prestige than she ever had before. Therefore, it would be all to the good if we could do anything in the way of detaching from Germany those lesser criminals who, unfortunately, are allied with her at the present time. Listening to the speeches of the supporters of this Amendment, one would almost imagine that there was only one innocent nation in the whole word, that is the Germans. We must really examine the question. It is proper to ask, why did the German nation go to war? Does the hon. Member for Leicester (Mr. R. Macdonald) or the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden) or anybody else imagine that Germany went to war in order to kill Russians, or Frenchmen, or Englishmen? On the face of it, the thing is absurd. Germany went to war for one reason, and one reason only. That was annexation, enlargement of territory, and aggrandisement. That is the whole of her policy from start to finish, and it is a policy—let us make no mistake about it—which is the accepted policy of the majority of the German nation. They have been educated in their schools and in their political doctrines to believe that the Germans are the greatest nation in the world. I must confess they are running a very good second at the present moment.

Let us then face the fact that Germany did not come into war in order to, kill a few people of other countries. That would have been very stupid, because she would have stood a very good chance of having her own people killed. She went to war for annexation. It is childish for this House to neglect that fact when considering the position to-day, and when this formula of "no annexations, no indemnities" is put before us. Let us keep that formula before our minds to-night, because, by the Amendment, we are being asked to join with the Germans in a formula which is absolutely contrary to the whole German doctrine of the last thirty years.

Turning from that, we have to realise that Germany went to war for the enlargement of her territory, which means new markets, or in other words, there really can be no one who examines the question who will deny that Germany went to war for economic reasons, which makes it the more interesting when we read the speech of the German Chancellor a night or two ago wherein he suggests that one of the easy roads to peace will be if the Allies will say that they are not prepared to go into an economic union against Germany. The Noble Lord (Lord H. Cavendish-Bentinck) just now very properly raised the question from his, point of view, and from what I know of him I know it is an honest point of view. I think I shall not be accused of holding any faint hearted views on this economic question, but I deplore the speeches which have come from some people, notably the right hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Simon) when he at one time suggested that for a period of years we should have no trade whatever with the Germans. I do not think that is business. I have always held the view that we should only, after the War, buy from the Germans what we want, and that our whole arrangements should be scientific, but that we should adopt the policy of not allowing Germany to come back into the comity of nations is ludicrous, and any economic union of the Allies which had for its intention the driving of Germany out of the economic life of the world would be opposed by the most extreme people who in the past have been anxious to prevent German economic penetration in this country.

In this connection we ought to make our position perfectly clear. The German Chancellor makes a speech and tries to raise what is really a bogey amongst the people. He refers to the Paris Economic Conference. As I understood the Paris Economic Conference, it was a defensive union to prevent the kind of thing which was happening before the War; the economic throttling of the life of those nations who were ready to admit Germany into their markets, and I believe the whole opinion of this country is absolutely determined that, at any rate in the future, Germany will not be allowed to have any more freedom in our markets than she has allowed us in the past. When I hear the hon. Member (Mr. Trevelyan) suggest that we were to blame with regard to this economic question I ask him to remember, as an Englishman, that it has been our policy in the British Empire, and in this country in particular, for forty or fifty years to welcome Germany into our economic spheres of influence absolutely on the same terms as we welcome ourselves, and I would ask him to remember what was the treatment we received in return from, the Prussian system of economic penetration, and any fair-minded Englishman will be determined that that kind of position cannot be returned to. But before we are prepared to render ourselves naked against German economic attack at the end of the War it is up to the hon. Members who are in touch with German sentiment to be able to prove definitely that Germany is going to have no tariff weapon used against us in the future.

I should like to pass from that to the question of reparation. The hon. Member (Mr. Snowden) told us that it was our duty to look this question of reparation in the face, and he also told us, what is interesting, that he thinks Germany ought to restore, as I understood it, the economic life of Belgium and to repair the ravages of war. That I think we are grateful to him for. But he went on to say he would not give the same treatment to France. With regard to all the other devastated areas in the world where Germany has carried blood and iron and ruined people and levelled houses and churches with a free hand, he says all the belligerent nations of the world should come into a common fund, that we should all go to our people and say, "We are going to impose a Super-tax on you to restore the devastated areas of France, Belgium, Serbia, and Roumania." A more cynical utterance has never been made in the Mother of Parliaments. What does the suggestion really come to? It means that we are to agree to a common fund for the reparation of destroyed, violated France. It means to say that we admit that we have equal guilt with the German nation, and I think the sooner we let our Friends know that we will have no part or lot in any policy of that description, because it admits guilt to which we were not in any way parties, the sooner the air will be cleared in that direction. Speaking as one holding a position of some freedom and independence, who have been recently in contact with vast crowds of my fellow countrymen, I believe if the hon. Member persists in this view there is even less doubt now than there has been in the past that he will not bear the same name as he does whenever the next General Election may take place.

As I have told the hon. Member not only once, if he or any of his Friends will be prepared—because it would be good for the country to express its opinion on this subject and on the whole pacifist policy—to resign their seats I will undertake to see that there will be a contest and that they will never returns again to this House, and I think it is most, important from the point of view of the public that it should be realised that whatever unrest there may be in this country—after all, with the new machinery which has been set up in this War, there is bound to be unrest, and with the new officials who have been put into this vast machinery who cannot in a very large number of cases understand the problems of labour and capital—is in no case whatever due to any weakening of the determination of the people of this country to beat the Germans. The hon. Member may be perfectly clear on that point. This country is absolutely as sound on these war measures as it was on the day it went to war for the sake of humanity, freedom and civilisation. It is little to the credit of the hon. Members who have raised this Amendment that they have tried to fan every little discontent into a great flame against the Government. It is not a very patriotic thing, when you find all these difficulties, the increased cost of food and the like, to engineer that and to try and bring it into a great flame of discontent. The Government would do well in that connection to deal very strenuously with any man who may be proved to have been a profiteer; it will do well greatly to increase the penalties upon manufacturers who may break their bargains in connection with industrial questions; but I think, it is only right that we should explain to the country that it has very largely nothing to do with the Government and nothing to do with individual profiteering. It is the economic circumstances of the whole world which have caused the rise in prices, and when men and women are tired because they have done their duty in the workshops of the nation it is not a great thing that the hon. Member should go down and play on the feelings of those tired, patriotic people in order to try to get them to turn in the direction of an inconclusive peace, with its disastrous results in the future.

Just one word in regard to the hon. Member (Mr. Ramsay Macdonald). He made a great advocacy of the German aims and the German frame of mind. We really must consider, first of all, what are our aims and what ought to be our frame of mind. The hon. Member tells us that the German nation is ready to do this, that and the other. What right has he to speak for the German nation? What possible expression of German opinion which counts have we ever had in the direction indicated by the hon. Member? He entered into a graphic description as to how ten German and ten British soldiers, if they sat together in the Council Chamber—we thought he was going to say how they would settle the War, but we were disappointed when we heard that they could come to no settlement at all. He began by saying that, first of all, they would have to consider the crimes that have been committed on the one side by the Germans and then they would have to consider the crimes which have been committed on our side. This country can say with truth to-day, as it said at the beginning of the War, that we have no crimes, that we have a clean sheet from "the very day we entered this War, actuated by the very highest motives that ever actuated any nation, and we have a clean sheet right up to the present moment. Our conduct has been clean and utterly against the atrocities of the German nation. The hon. Member for Leicester ought to remember what his countrymen, thank God, know, that our conduct in this War has been fair, and that the conduct of our soldiers and our sailors has been gallant right from the start up to the present time. When the hon. Member makes his great advocacy for German ends, and when he suggests that the two nations can stand on the same footing and that they might agree to the same sort of formula in regard to peace, it is clearly open to ask him who was responsible in the first place for plunging the whole world into this vortex of blood and misery. When these hon. Members are tackled upon that question they say, "Look at the losses which the hon. and gallant Gentleman and other hon. Members are inflicting upon their fellow countrymen." I would remind them that those losses will not be any the less if this nation is not united. Those losses will not be any the less if hon. Members try to encourage the Germans to imagine that there is any sort of weakening in this country. There is no weakening in this country, except the fictitious agitation which has been worked up by the hon. Member for Blackburn and his Friends. I do not think he will be the hon. Member for Blackburn long. Let me recall one or two things which those hon. Gentlemen forget.

I have no quarrel whatever with the genuine pacifist. I can understand the position of the genuine pacifist. I can understand the man who loves peace on the grounds of religion and who says war is wicked. I can understand that point of view, but I cannot understand the point of view of the man who is a pacifist and who at the same time is always leaning in the direction of the people who have made peace in the world impossible. If the War was to end upon the basis which those hon. Gentlemen desire, and we were to sit round a formula, saying, "No annexations and no indemnities," except that the belligerents are to join in a common fund to repair the ravages of Europe, do we not realise that that means that the whole of Middle Europe will still be a united population? Do we realise that it means that 140,000,000 of people will be a concentrated, united people, and that long before the Paris economic Resolutions were ever discussed Germany had an avowed economic policy for the whole of Central Europe, plus Turkey? Do hon. Members realise that in that case we shall leave that great black wedge across Middle Europe, and across the Persian Gulf, a menace to India and a dagger at the heart of the British Empire in the East? If we do not realise that fact we are not acting in the interests of our country. We ought to look at the future position. There is a further point. The hon. Gentleman who raised this question to-night have, I believe, been actuated in many questions in the past by very noble thoughts in regard to the brotherhood of man, which in some cases might even be confused with Christianity. Let us consider from the start of this War how the Christian faith stands. How is the Christian faith going to stand if the War ends as these hon. Gentlemen would have it end? If a man goes berserk and murders women and children and breaks every law of civilisation, is there any single thing which we can find in Christianity or any word in the Bible which tells us that mankind should stand on one side and allow the thing to go on? What would be the inevitable result? Surely it must be that if this crime is not punished it will happen again. Putting it to that test, let us start at the commencement.

9.0 P.M.

Germany in her violation of Belgium absolutely defied all the laws of Christianity. There is no party in Germany, not even the Minority Socialists, who have definitely said that Germany committed a crime when she entered Belgium. I admit that they have said that it was an expediency, a necessity of war. Let us go through all their crimes. The "Lusitania," and the murderous attacks without warning upon innocent shipping of the mercantile marine. When they tell us that we are out for a war of attrition, I ask, Who began the war of attrition? Has not Germany from the very start been intent on a war of attrition? With her submarine war she believes she can starve out the people of this country. Let us remember this, that Germany is persisting in that policy, and she believes in a war of attrition. Let them convert the Germans to give up a war of attrition, and then they can come to us with some propriety, and ask us to give up a war of attrition. We have to consider the conduct of the German nation in these matters. First we had Zeppelin menaces. We had the indiscriminate murder of people in this country. Whenever these Zeppelin raids took place—with singularly little effect of military importance—the German nation applauded the fact when they heard that the civilian population in this country had suffered. It has been exactly the same with regard to all their conduct in the War. When we started this War we thought we were fighting with civilised people. The Red Cross flag was shown always by the British troops when it was a question of getting in the wounded, but the Germans killed civilised war in that direction. They followed that up with poison gas and all those inventions which civilisation regarded with horror as things which ought not to be permitted in civilised warfare. Then there have been their recent aeroplane raids.

The fact of the matter is that you are fighting a nation which has absolutely thrown over any vestige of ideals of the Christian faith. You are fighting a nation which is absolutely determined, regardless of any of the great ideals of the past, to try to crush you and to humiliate you right to the bitter end. Therefore, when I hear hon. Members say, "Let us go back to the status quo? " I say that means that you are letting the murderer out of prison and saying to him, "We have decided to go back to the status quo. " There is no punishment for that murderer. In such a state of affairs, where is your peace for the world in the future? Where is your peace for the world in the future if Middle Europe is absolutely united, and if you have Turkey, embraced by these comrades of European civilisation, all standing together and congratulating themselves over the murder of Armenia? If you have this solid block standing together, where is to be the peace of the world for our children in the days to come? We have listened a good deal this evening to arguments about the reasons which have tended to bring the German people to a different state of mind. There is only one argument which the German fighting men understand, and that is military superiority; and when we hear of all these reasons why the German nation is weakening and wishing to trust democracy, I think it is only due to our great armies, who, by the way, have never been really thanked in this House, and the great and unceasing valour of our soldiers, and the valour of our merchantmen, and the valour of the British Navy, which has contributed above everything else to the only argument which the Germans understand. I do hope that this House, in voting on this Resolution, will not play the German game by letting Germany imagine that there is any considerable section of this country which believes in any question of compromise or talk of the description that we have heard this evening. There is only one hope for the peace of the world or of the British Empire, which I may remind hon. Gentlemen still counts, and that is that we shall emerge from this conflict so victorious that Germany will know that it does not pay to plunge the whole world into the vortex of war.

I confess that when one listens to a speech such as that which we have just heard one despairs of ever coming to any reasonable settlement of the problems which have affected Europe during the last few years. I will not attempt to follow the hon. and gallant Member into all or any of his arguments. It is the style of speech which we have heard on many previous occasions. It might have been made three years ago. A great many people like myself who support both inside and outside this House the spirit of the Amendment which stands on the Paper, profoundly resent the charge frequently made by the hon. and gallant Member, that they cannot lay equal claim and just as sincere a claim as he does to patriotism of which so much is heard. I confess that I heard with much greater regret than the speech to which we have just listened a speech made earlier in the evening by the Leader of the House. The Leader of the House, it seemed to me, had a great opportunity. In spite of all that we have been hearing from the hon. and gallant Gentleman, I believe that there is fundamentally between Members of all parties in this House, and in spite of superficial differences, much greater agreement than is very often allowed. I believe that there is underneath a very general measure of agreement as to the sort of settlement that is wanted however we may differ as to the best means of getting it. The Leader of the House, it seemed to me, had an opportunity of increasing the unity of the country by responding, in something like the tone that distinguished the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Fife, with the sentiment which is widely felt in this country in regard to the desirability of peace. Instead of that he repeated old charges and old recriminations. He did not trouble to respond to the change of feeling which is admitted almost universally to have taken place recently in the German people, whatever may be said of the German Government.

We were told by the Leader of the House that nothing new had occurred to justify this Debate, and he afterwards went on to belittle, as almost every speaker who has taken his side has done, the importance of the Resolution that was passed ten days ago by the German Reichstag. It has already been admitted that the German Reichstag, unfortunately, does not possess anything like the authority of this House. It has little or no power over the Executive Government. This House has not much. The German Parliament has practically none. Yet whatever you may say of that point, however unimportant as regards direct power the German Parliament may be, no one will deny that it is a body which does represent, as no other body does, the opinion of the German people. It is more representative, because it is more recently elected than this House. It is entitled, it is authorised to speak for the German nation. It is as such bound to have in the long run a very profound influence upon German policy. Yet we are told it is of no importance when a body which does represent the German people passes by a large majority a Resolution which, in my opinion, is definitely in favour of peace. I may read again one or two sentences from the Reichstag Resolution. They declare, by 214 votes to 116,

I welcome very much the statement, which I believe is perfectly true, made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Fife, that there is good reason for thinking that the Resolution, strong as it is in its meaning in favour of peace, does not adequately and fully express the feelings of the German people themselves. Then we are told that whatever the Reichstag said, and whatever Dr. Michaelis, the new Prime Minister, has said, his speech is ambiguous, and it can be read in either of two ways. I would like to ask whether any of our statesmen ever made a statement which can be read in more than one sense. Why, ever since the War began, as far as I remember, there has scarcely been a single speech that either has not been misinterpreted or has not had to be explained by the right hon. Gentleman himself to save great misunderstanding. Again and again we have had speeches of the most ambiguous character. If it is simply ambiguity that is objected to, are we to be told that the War is to be continued because the speech of Dr. Michaelis is not perfectly clear? I am not saying that there are not other reasons for continuing the War, but it is absurd to come to us complaining that this speech is ambiguous Dealing with what Dr. Michaelis says, the Leader of the House quoted the words, "Germany must conclude peace as those who have successfully carried through their purpose." The Leader of the House did not go on to say that Dr. Michaelis says perfectly clearly in that same speech that by such purpose he means the purpose of the defence of the German Empire. It does not seem to me that the words are worthy of all the attention which is given to them or that they really take away the importance of the rest of this statement. But I do not want to put the case on either the statement of Dr. Michaelis or the Resolution, or on any mere expressions or speeches. It is the facts of the situation which must ultimately count. On the other hand, you cannot accept the Resolution as the irreducible minimum terms which Germany will accept as a settlement of this War. If you regard this Resolution in the broad sense you have there something very like a peace basis, or, if not that, at least one for negotiation, which might carry you some considerable way towards a lasting and honourable peace.

I hope most sincerely, on that ground, that the announcement made by the Government, and repeated again this afternoon, that very shortly, at the invitation of the Russian Government, the Allies are to hold a Conference in Paris to revise and restate their War aims, will afford an opportunity for consideration of peace. I have very great hopes that it may lead to a declaration not unlike the declaration which is mentioned in the Amendment upon the Paper, a declaration which will embody the policy of no annexations and no indemnities, which has been so often put forward. I believe in that policy, and, if we can act in that spirit, surely we shall be able to get a lasting peace in Europe and shall not have the future wars which the hon. and gallant Gentleman (General Croft) so gravely apprehends. I entirely disagree with him on the point as to a war of attrition, and I venture to think that there is no worse way of preventing future wars than to follow the kind of policy which the hon. and gallant Gentleman has put forward in this House.

I have never argued in favour of a war of attrition. What I meant was that the whole of our policy should be to put the whole of our forces into the field at the earliest possible moment, the whole 3,000,000, in order to get this horrible War out of the way.

I understood that the hon. Gentleman was arguing in favour of a war of attrition, and at any rate it is not by that sort of statement, or the statements to which we have listened in the House this afternoon, that we are going to secure peace. But I hope we are going to have something much more than a mere revision and a fresh declaration of our war aims. I confess I was very much interested in listening to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle, and I think the proposal that he made well merits the attention of the Government at the earliest possible moment. Why should not steps be taken to bring about a conference between the leaders of the opposing nations? We have been told again and again that a conference with Germany cannot be held until various things have happened, until various conditions have been fulfilled, and to have anything like a conference would be to put our head in a noose, that it would be a sign of weakness, and a discouragement to the Allies, and that it would bring about all kinds of evils and all kinds of woes. The very suggestion of a conference when it was made last December by the German Government was scouted by all the newspapers as almost an insult. What is it that we have now? We have now a series of statements and counter-statements, a series of challenges, charges, and countercharges made by the Prime Ministers of the different countries speaking on public platforms or from their House of Parliament in each country, with all the rhetorical appeals to prejudice, with all the misleading statements which inevitably follow statements and restatements of that kind. Instead of that sort of continuous controversy between Prime Ministers of the different countries, another and more conclusive and reasonable way would he to bring together the authorised representatives of the States concerned, to see what are the real points of difference which make the continuance of this War necessary. No one suggests in the first place that we are to abandon our legitimate aims, the objects for which this country has gone into war, nor would it be for a moment necessary to alter the disposition of our troops or the Fleet, or to even have an armistice, so that this Conference might go on. I believe if an armistice were made it could be made as short as possible. Representatives of the warring countries could meet each other, as they did amicably a little while ago to discuss the exchange of prisoners. I believe that it is not a sign of strength but it is a sign of weakness to refuse all approaches for conference or negotiation. If our position is as strong as we have been told it is by the Leader of the House, what possible objection can there be to a meeting where we could state fairly what our war aims are, and if our aims are not accepted, and if an agreement is not reached, the War could continue.

All these things were said at the time of the conference which finally finished the Russo-Japanese War. The Japanese said that nothing would induce them to agree to anything which did not include the payment of indemnities by Russia. Russia on her side said that she would pay no indemnity of any kind whatever, and would sooner continue the war. Everyone thought that the Russian Government would not give way. Nevertheless, a conference took place while there was still a division between both sides, and within a short time peace was made. That may not be, and there is a difference in the conditions, but at any rate it does suggest that in that way there is hope of bringing to an end the disaster by which the civilisation of the world is afflicted. Every Labour Member knows how often in industrial disputes it seems perfectly hopeless that the parties should be able to come to an agreement, but when they get into a room and discuss matters for some time they often find that the main differences of both parties can be successfully settled.

What are the vital objections which exist against a rapprochement? I heartily support the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle that rather than continue this War of attrition now some attempt of this sort should be made to try and arrive at a reasonable settlement of the points in dispute. In saying that I do not abandon for a moment, not for a moment, the main objects for which this country went to war. I believe, as do all my Friends, that we ought to secure reparation to Belgium and immunity to France, and all the main objects for which, as the hon. and gallant Gentleman said, this country took up its arms with the noblest spirit that ever animated any country. I say we do not abandon for a moment the main objects, but we do say the time has come when it might be considered whether those objects could not be attained by negotiation instead of by a, continuance of devastation. Let the House consider how, after three years, Europe stands. What is the alternative if no settlement can be reached? We have millions of men in the field, the damage to civilisation, moral, material, and intellectual, and hardly a house in the warring countries over which the shadow of death and sorrow does not hang. I am perfectly certain all hon. Members receive letters, which show the agonies that this War is causing and the awful injury it is doing to civilisation which has been built up with such, care for generations past. I am sure every Member must think that no effort ought to be spared to shorten the awful horrors of this War. The War has led to acts of great heroism and loyalty, and to a great display of magnificent qualities, and I am perfectly certain there is no one who does not feel the enormous pride we all feel at that. But as people see the continuance of this War, and as they have to face inequalities, and as they see the fortunes that are being built up by profiteering on one side and the sacrifices made by other people there is bound to be, and there is, a terrible spirit of discontent and a revolutionary spirit now arising in this country, and this revolutionary spirit and spirit of rebellion are bound to get stronger as this War goes on. Anything said by way of prejudice and passion and truculent denunciations of the enemy tend to prolong the War.

I listened with great regret to the speech of the Leader of the House to-day. I believe that was a speech—I trust it may not be so—that is bound to have a bad effect and bound to irritate and possibly to mislead the people of Germany into the idea that it is our aim to bring about the destruction of the German nation. I wish the right hon. Gentleman could have followed the tone of the speech made earlier in the evening by my right hon. Friend on this side. It appears to me to be a poor thing for the Leader of the House to challenge us on this side to go to a Division, as if he was going to secure a magnificent triumph by forcing us into the Division Lobby. We are not afraid or ashamed to divide against the Government if they wish us to do so. We stand by our principles and by what is expressed in this Amendment. I believe this Amendment expresses an opinion which is held most widely, and more widely than the Government believe, in the country at present, and I am prepared to go into the Division Lobby in favour of it. But I certainly would have been happier if at this time the Leader of the House endeavoured to express the real agreement which I believe exists between men of all parties on this subject. I believe there is a real, fundamental agreement much stronger and much more vital than the sort of empty charges we got from the bench opposite this afternoon. People in all walks of life are looking with profound distrust upon Governments. People in all countries do so because they say, "Could not the Governments have done more to save misunderstanding?" They do not forget what has happened with regard to Constantinople, and that except for the revolution in Russia we might to-day be giving up lives in order to secure for an autocratic Government a town which is not wanted by the people of Russia. I ask the Government to consider the alternative of peace by negotiation, and whether at the Paris Conference they cannot do something really effective to secure for this country a lasting and honourable settlement.

I really wish I could have kept out of this Debate. But there have been some speeches in the course of the afternoon that I think ought not to be allowed to go unchallenged. I have listened to most of the speeches. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down upon the tone of his speech, and I would also like to congratulate the Mover and the Seconder of the Amendment on the tone of their speeches. The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down asked what difference there was between a labour dispute being settled by negotiation and a war of this kind. I could have wished that an attempt had been made to study the psychology of this War, for its causes are deep-seated and go down to the roots of life and to the roots of race. You cannot, do what you will, discuss a question of this character as you would a labour dispute. For instance, when a Russian friend of mine at Moscow asked me to agree with him that the time had come when we should hold out our hands again to our German comrades, my simple reply was, I think, the best one, and that was: "Such a course will not bring those I have known back to life, some of whom have been in my own family; it will not restore the limbs that have been lost." As he talked to me about renewing the old relationship with the German comrades, I replied: "These things are in my life and in my experience." I say, frankly, that whenever I meet one of our men in the street without a leg or without an arm, or when I have seen them in the streets of Paris, or Moscow, or Petrograd, I simply say: "The Germans did that Nobody asked for it. It was imposed upon us." If we had deliberately helped to bring about this War, I should have said at once that these sights were all in the game—that we might expect them. But, as I tried to prove to my Russian friends, what I have said is a statement of fact. I tried to show them that we did not want this War; that we are a peace-loving people. I pointed out that the Labour movement and the Socialist movement in this country, as in France, and, as I thought, in Germany, stood for peace. I pointed out how this country tried to prevent this War on the eve of the declaration of war. I gave them particulars of what Lord Grey had done, showing conclusively that this War was imposed upon the country by Germany, There is not a shadow of doubt about it.

How can you discuss questions involving life, and injury, and wounds, questions involving race, across a table calmly in view of all that has happened? God knows that I love peace as well as anyone, but I confess that if an inconclusive peace were brought about and this country were in any way under the domination of the Central Powers I could not breath the atmosphere. In Stockholm I was asked by a mutual friend to see one or two of my own colleagues, Herr Legein, who in days gone by was the member for Kiel in the Reichstag, and general president of the International Trade Union Secretariat. There was also an Austrian colleague, H. Hueber, general president of the Austrian Trade Union Federation. I have been associated for the last twenty-five years with these men in our conferences on the Continent. We were close bosom friends, colleagues, and comrades. I fled from Stockholm, for I knew what would happen if I met them in the streets of Stockholm and they held out their hands to me! How can you meet those connected with a State or a nation who have engaged in a struggle such as the one in which we are now engaged unless they smash the idol and the fetish they have worshipped? These things possess the heart of the people of Germany, the heart of their men and their women, and have done so for the last fifty years. Unless the German people can put that idol upon the ground and smash it, how can we expect to enter into any conferences with the idea of making secure the future peace of the world? I should like to support this Amendment if I understood it, but really it is too vague. It is, I believe, a deliberate concoction by somebody in Germany, done roughly and crudely to make people believe that they accept the declaration of the Workmen and Soldiers' Delegates in Petrograd, subsequently endorsed by the then Provisional Government. Let me try to indicate what passed between some of us in Russia. I remember going down to the Workmen and Soldiers' Council in Moscow. The chairman of the Council was, I think, one of Kerenski's supporters. I felt I should like to argue the point. I tried to explain, or to analyse the phrases in the manifesto. "No annexations, no indemnities, and the self-assertion of the people." I said to my Russian colleagues at Moscow, "We British are a phlegmatic race; we are in the habit of putting our opinions in very cold sentences; yet deep down in our souls we love liberty. I said we were people that were obsessed by a desire for facts. I told them they had been looking at things from a different angle to us, but that I felt there was a large area of common ground upon which we could stand if we only tried to understand each other's position. Then I took the phrase "no annexation." I said to my comrades there, "Supposing in the terms of peace Alsace-Lorraine were handed back to France! What would you do about that?" They replied that would be all right. But I said, "That phraseology means what it says, and whatever might be the view of you Russians, or whatever might be our view as Britishers, the fact of the matter is that Alsace-Lorraine is German territory, and the Germans would say that it meant annexation." Take, again, the question of an indemnity. I told them that it was the unalterable determination of the British people, so far as I understood it, and particularly of the organised working classes, that the Powers which imposed this bloodshed and devastation upon the world should be made to pay for it. Immediately, however, we began to get the German people to pay for such devastation they would say that it was an indemnity. Again, as to the assertion of the people, I do not think that the Ger- man people mean that in the Resolution in the form in which it is given in the Amendment. Let there be no mistake about the matter. The German people have not yet declared that they generally believe in the policy of "no annexation." They have not yet declared that they believe in a policy of "non-contribution." If that is the state of things, what in the world is the value of a Resolution of this kind?

I have heard many wicked speeches from the hon. Member for Blackburn, but I think the most wicked of all was that speech this afternoon. For instance, he declared that certain actions and certain speeches by our own Government simply amounted to crocodile tears being shed by the Front Bench for the Russian Revolution, and that they had had that effect in Russia. I know one action that created a worse effect. A colleague in this House and myself, and a colleague of ours outside the House, were sent to Russia—quite true, by the Government, if you like. We had no mandate except this: "We want you to go to Russia in order to express what you consider to be the views of the British nation generally on the Russian Revolution, and, if you like, to convey the congratulations of the British House of Commons." That was a very useful mission, and certainly could not do harm. And, of course, we resolved while there to do the best we could for the cause of the Allies, and we were getting on fairly successfully. One thing we pointed out to our working friends on the Workmen and Soldiers' Council was the difficulty created by a Provisional Government issuing on one day rules, decrees, and suggestions for the better government of Russia, involved, as it was, in the chaos and confusion of the great Revolution, and on the next day the Workmen and Soldiers' Council issuing a repudiation of those orders. I am glad before we left Petrograd we had the satisfaction of knowing—I do not say we were responsible—that the Workmen and Soldiers' Council at Petrograd had resolved to form a Coalition Government.

A resolution was passed at an Independent Labour party meeting at Leeds in the Easter of this year. It was carefully telegraphed out to Russia. I do not know how it got out, and I cannot understand why the Censor allowed it to get out. Let me tell you why I think that. That resolution said that we were ill-informed persons. We were said to be the agents of the British Government, and I heard Lenin myself at a street corner in Petrograd reading the resolution. It was interpreted to me by a Russian friend. This was Lenin's peroration: "Ah, my comrades, we in Russia know what Government agents are. They have always been spies." Of course, we well know what the reasons were, but I thought that was too bad, and I declare, in spite of what has been said by the hon. Member for Blackburn to-night, that resolution did more harm to the people of Great Britain than anything the Government might have been responsible for. We told them those people did not speak for the Independent Labour Party who had volunteered and were fighting in the trenches? They only represented 30,000 on a card vote.

The hon. Member made a reference to the French Army. I think I know France better than he does, and I certainly know the French people better than he does. I know the French Parliamentarians fairly well, and I am in close contact with the French trade unionists and have been for a long number of years. I have also coma into contact with a large number of French troops because when they come back they attend trade union meetings and conferences. I think I know the feeling of the French Army, and I declare that the statement of the hon. Member for Blackburn about the revolt in the French Army is absolutely untrue. A wild statement like that is appalling. Let me give an instance to show how false it is. There were some pacifists at a conference last October. I attended, and they spoke along the same lines as the hon. Gentleman, quite sincerely. They said, "What are we fighting for?" A French trade unionist, who happened to be a sergeant in uniform, just back from the trenches, had his boy with him, and, holding him up, said, "That is what I am fighting for." If anyone talks about Lille in particular in the hearing of Frenchmen you will see the blood rise to their eyes. Of the horrors of Lille the hon. Member for Blackburn knows absolutely nothing. The horrors of Belgium are bad enough, but if you talk to the French workman and the French soldier about what has been done to the women of Lille you will not hear anything about peace until it has been settled by force of arms.

There is another point I want to put. I only came back from France about three weeks ago, and when I was there I conferred with the French Socialist party, and this is the first time I have heard that the French Socialist party have taken up the attitude about Alsace-Lorraine as stated by the hon. Member for Blackburn this afternoon. As far as I know the French Socialist parliamentary party, there is absolutely no dubiety about their frame of mind in regard to Alsace-Lorraine. On that matter they are with the French nation and the French Government. Ask M. Thomas what he thinks about that proposition—a faithful supporter of the Government, and a devoted and loyal member of the French Socialist parliamentary party. Worse than anything, the hon. Member declared that our own soldiers are almost in a state of revolt. I know them infinitely better than the hon. Member. I have been in contact with the troops, and seen them when wounded and on leave. But I get no letters such as he indicated, except here and there a grumble, but nothing to speak of, and I cannot accept the statement he made that there are letters coming from the trenches indicating that the soldiers seem inclined to revolt. After all, we are in a state of war, and if such letters were sent from the troops, they could not get past the censor. I am not saying they ought not to get through, but I am talking about the conditions of war, and I say simply this, that letters of that kind cannot get through to this country. On the whole, I think that speech a bad speech in the interests of peace, because what it will do is to create a ferment, an irritation, an antagonism that I hope had, after all, been softening down in the controversy between our various parties. I said I did not want to detain the House long, but I want to put two more points before I sit down.

10.0 P.M.

Which is the party in Russia analogous to the party with which my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn is associated? After all, it is the party that have declared that they would not fight for their country in any circumstances. I make a mere statement of fact when I say that the Independent Labour Party, over and over again, since this War commenced, have declared that they would not go to war in any circumstances or for any cause. That means to say, that if this country were attacked and its shores invaded, they would not go to war, and they would not protect it. Lenin has been propagating that same gospel in the streets of Petrograd, and the extremists of various parties are saying the same thing. Which is the party analogous to the Labour party? It is the party that follows Kerensky, the man who was the leader of the Labour party in the late Duma, and who is now Prime Minister of Russia, who declares that the whole resources of Russia must be put forward to save the Revolution and to save the freedom of Russia, that having dethroned the House of Romanoff they should do all they can to prevent the House of Hohenzollern shackling the people of the country with worse bonds than those they have just got rid of, who day by day is going among the army, taking great journeys across great sweeps of territory in order to tell the troops what their duty is, and who, whenever there is a meeting of the civilian population, particularly of the workers, goes among them to do the same kind of thing. That is the work we are doing in our own crude, rough way in this country, the members with whom we are associated. What are we met with? You talk of secret diplomacy. There are no greater experts at that game than certain members I know of and certain organisations in the country. They are sending round circulars now to the trade union branches and to the trade councils in regard to the propaganda they are engaged in. The circulars are sent to the committees of unions threatening them as executive committees if they do not safeguard the policy contained in the circular. Secret diplomacy! I have several resolutions sent to my own union, and they are all regular resolutions, not a single difference in the phraseology, whether they corns from Scotland or from other parts of the Kingdom. I think, moreover, there is one thing we ought to know about this business, and that is that the only peace people in this country are the middle-class party. I do not mean that I blame that party at all. I know many of them have lost their sons in the War, but I am speaking of those who are pacifists, and I believe it is they who are finding the money for the propaganda that is going on. There was a convention at Leeds, I believe, a little while back. It was supposed to be representative. I think the statement sent out about it was that it represented five millions of organised workers and Socialists. There was one organisation which sent eighty-eight delegates down, and each to vote for 5,000 members, while the actual strength of the membership of the whole organisation throughout the Kingdom is 2,000. I think that the Independent Labour Party had 188 delegates there. Multiply that with each being supposed to represent 5,000, and yet their card vote at the Labour party conference is 30,000. As a matter of fact, one man in Leeds had a letter put in his box saying that he was appointed a representative of the London University, and he knew nothing at all about it. Moreover, they went out into the streets and scooped up delegates—and he went to represent 5,000. The Trade Union Congress, with 700 delegates assembled, with all the strength of the organisation of the trade union movement, only represents 3½ millions, and this convention represented 5,500,000. Then they complain about us, and say, "In this recruiting campaign the complaint we make against you is that you are on a common platform with the enemies of labour." The enemies of labour were on the platform at the Leeds Convention, and so far as I know them they have been bitter enemies in the past and have used their organisation, machinery, and money to defeat the getting of reasonable hours and wages for the working man. But when the War is over they will be back at the old game again, so that somebody must associate with the bitter enemies of labour besides ourselves. I am sorry that I have strayed, and I come back to the Amendment on the Paper. If I thought for a moment—and I say this with sincerity, and hope my hon. Friends opposite will accept it—that the acceptance of this Amendment by the British House of Commons would shorten this War by a day, would bring about an honourable peace, and would give a guarantee for the future of the world in respect of war, would impress the German people with that psychology of theirs, a people who for almost centuries have been brought up to obey and not to think for themselves, whose hoardings and streets are filled with that terrible word "Verboten," whom I have seen in the streets of Berlin treated in such a way that if Britishers were treated like that there would be some heads cracked, who have been pushed and chivied when they have tried to go to a meeting or wait outside to demonstrate in favour of the speakers; who when they are told to go, go, and do not reason, because they cannot help it—the instinct is there—and who when they are told to come, come, I would vote for it. But I do not believe for a moment that those men with all that training, those German men in the trenches, or the German women, will consent to settle this War unless upon a peace that will give greater power and greater influence—aye, and will impose a greater tyranny on the world than that which existed before the War.

I will not follow the hon. Member who has just sat down in all he said with regard to his colleagues of the Labour party, because that is obviously no concern of mine, nor really of this House. I was interested in a great deal that he said with regard to his experiences in Russia, and I think there is this fundamental difference between the way in which he regards the present situation and the way in which we regard it. It is exemplified in what he said, in his very moving reference to the thoughts that occurred to him when he saw wounded men in the streets. He says that when he sees a wounded man in the streets the first thing that occurs to him is, "That is Germany." That is not the way it impresses me. When I see a wounded man in the streets I say, "That is war," and I only hope that there are a great many people in Germany who take my view, and that there are not so many who, when they see a wounded soldier, say, "That is England." After all, the hatred engendered by war is, thank heaven, not everlasting; and although it is very natural that we should have these passions while war lasts, I do not see why those who try to see beyond the veil of passions into a brighter future should always be scoffed at and laughed at. The hon. Member who has just sat down said that the idol which the Germans had worshipped must be cast down and smashed. I agree with him. The idol of militarism must be smashed; we are all agreed upon that; but Germany is not the only country where the shrine of that idol exists, and the question is how we are to crush this idol of militarism. Militarism and autocracy we Britishers want to see crushed, wherever they exist. The experience of this War is that militarism and autocracy have been crushed not in the countries against whom we are fighting, but in a country with whom we are fighting. That is clear proof that not by force of arms are you going to destroy this pernicious thing and this iniquitous spirit which is doing so much mischief in the world. The hon. Member, and many previous speakers, referred very constantly to Alsace-Lorraine, and they asked us categorically what is our policy, if we accept no annexations, with regard to Alsace-Lorraine. The last time I took part in one of these Debates in the House I emphasised the point that, so long as we kept on regarding Alsace-Lorraine as just a detachable part of the map, which can be handed over from one conqueror to another, and that the last conqueror is to retain it—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"]—so long will there be disputes over Alsace-Lorraine, and so long will it be impossible to get any peaceable relations between Germany and France. What we want this time is to see the question dealt with from a statesmanlike point of view, and in a spirit which will get a settlement which will be in accordance with the wishes of the inhabitants.

I hoped that we should not have to divide on this Motion this evening, because, after all, it is a serious matter to divide on the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill. At the same time, it is a recognised opportunity which the House has for bringing forward matters of this character, and there have been Divisions on this occasion before now. But after the speech of the Leader of the House I do not think there was any doubt left in the minds of those of us on these benches that it was our clear duty to divide against this Bill to-night. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House was asked whether he would let us have a day to discuss this question, apart from the Consolidated Fund Bill. He said that the course of public business would not allow him to give us a day; and he explained to us to-night exactly why he was not going to give us a day for this discussion. He said it was because he did not want to emphasise the importance of the movement we represent, and he did not want it to be taken out of proportion. That seemed to me to be a very petty reason for refusing a day for such an important discussion as this, and the right hon. Gentleman may know that, whether he gave us a day or did not give us a day, it would not lessen or increase the importance of our movement. The importance of our movement does not depend on us, and does not depend on the way we are treated in this House. It is growing outside, in spite of us, and although it may be patriotic to laugh at us, and to scoff at the idea that we find any audiences at all, I think, as time goes on, hon. Members who take that point of view will find that they are mistaken. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House said, in the course of his remarks, that we had now reached a moment when it was a question of staying power—a test of the nerve of the nation. There is one thing very clear, and that is that while the soldiers out at the front have done their share in a way which no eloquence of the greatest orator can ever fully express, there has been a very great shortcoming in the utterances of statesmen. There have been fluctuations in this War during the last three years. There have been the constant hopes of an advance, the constant expectations of victory; there have been the changing regulations at home, and there have been the fresh developments of horror, followed by fresh outbursts of indignation. But there have been two constant factors throughout; one is the heroism and endurance of our soldiers in the field, and the casualties that have gone on, day by day and month by month, adding to the long list of losses of the flower of the manhood of this country. The other constant factor has been the inadequacy, the futility, and the ineptitude of the utterances of statesmen—not the statesmen of one country alone, but of all countries. I dare say hon. Members have attempted to keep various records and cuttings concerning the War. The only one that I have made any attempt to keep is a collection of speeches of the chief Ministers in the various belligerent countries, and they are not very edifying reading. When one thinks of the cost in human life and in treasure of this great calamity, and when one sees, side by side, the utterances of these men, filled with excuses and vituperation, with invective and abuse and perpetual recriminations, it really makes one feel that it is about time that they were brushed aside and the peoples were somehow allowed to talk to one another. And, when a Parliament does speak over the head of its Ministers, I think it is only right and appropriate that we in this Parliament should make some response. It is for that reason that our Motion has been brought forward to-night. It is not only the tone of the speeches, but it is the methods of our diplomacy. The German Chancellor makes a very important speech on assuming office. The first comment on it is made by a member of the War Cabinet, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University, who reads it on the platform during a meeting, as one might read the speech of one's opponent at some election meeting, and then proceeds to comment upon it by declaring that there can be no question of negotiating peace with the Germans until they withdraw behind the Rhine. It was quite obvious, in spite of what was said to-day that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University thought that the Rhine was the German frontier. There is no question about that. There is no reason why he should not think that. He has been so deeply engaged in naval matters that land geography has missed his attention. But what I complain of is that one of the War Cabinet, on the very following day after a speech of that kind is made, should speak in the name of Great Britain to the world, making foolish mistakes and making unconsidered and indiscreet utterances. But that is the way our diplomacy is conducted. Here is a world war, with men losing their lives hourly and every minute, and this vast responsibility is on the shoulders of these statesmen, and they cannot even take the trouble to confer together and to find out, after judicious and careful conference, what sort of considered answer Great Britain ought to make to the world. I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House, in making his reply to-night, was given some soft of instruction by the War Cabinet. I am not quite sure whether he is in the War Cabinet or not, but I know he is in a sort of half-way position, and has access to the War Cabinet. Consequently he must have had some instruction as to how to meet this discussion, and perhaps it was given to him like it was given to Lord Derby, between the motor and the train. No doubt the instruction was that the pacifists were to be sat on. That was the tone of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's speech, and he really put aside the tremendous gravity of the principle underlying this Resolution in order to make cheap points and score off us as a contemptible minority. It must not be forgotten that these utterances go out into the world.

We are told that we cannot make peace with Germany until the German Govern- ment is fully democratised. I am interested in this new cult of democracy of which the high priests are Lord Curzon and Lord Milner. If we cannot make peace, or if it is difficult to make peace with Germany until she is fully democratised, how is it that we found it quite easy to make an alliance with the most complete autocracy the world has ever seen? The value of democracy did not occur to us then. When we are accused of insincerity in these utterances it is unfortunate that we cannot refute the charges more completely, because in the mouths of some of our Ministers there is a strong note of insincerity when they talk about this ideal of democracy. After all, what is this democracy? Have we ever had it, or have we got it now? Democracy is not legislation or speeches by Ministers, or Parliament Acts. We thought we were on the eve of a democratic millennium before the War, but democracy is not any of these things. Unfortunately no country is very near reaching it. Democracy is the gradual development of a free and independent people unhampered by legislative restrictions, unfettered by militarists and bureaucratic regulations, free from economic pressure, self-reliant, educated, and fully participating in all branches of national government. We are not very near that state of democracy, nor were we before the War. After all the restrictions on action, on opinion, on service, and on conscience since the War has been raging our boast of democracy is rather empty and rather vain. But in Russia democracy has spoken. People are inclined to think that what is said in Russia is peculiar to Russia. It is not. It is what the people want to say, and what the people would say in every country in Europe if they had the same liberty of expression as the Russians have at this moment. One of the Russian gentlemen who are over in this country at present told me the other day that they have scores of newspapers in Petrograd expressing all manner of opinions absolutely openly and freely. If you were to withdraw your restrictions on the Press, and if you were to allow a free expression of opinion, the Government and a good many people in this country would be very much surprised at the sort of opinion that they would find in this country at the present time. An instance of the way we are restricted is afforded by this very Resolution of the German Reichstag. It appeared in leaded type on Monday afternoon of last week in one evening paper at three o'clock, but by five o'clock it was in none of the evening papers, and the next morning it was tucked away in two newspapers in abbreviated form. When the Reichstag debate was reported last Friday there was only one newspaper in which the Resolution was quoted. I do not say that the Noble Lord or the Leader of the House sent instructions that this Resolution was not to appear in the Press, but they have set up bureaux, agents, controllers, and directors who are all acting independently of one another. Goodness knows what goes on. I am sure that the Government do not. This huge octopus of a bureaucracy which has grown up under the present regime has got out of hand, as we see by the curious phenomena which appear from time to time in our Press, which is doctored, and which is allowed to say this but not allowed to say that. The result is that the Government live in a fool's paradise, and do not know what the people of the country are thinking at all. If this repression goes on, they will find that it is rather a dangerous operation in which to persist.

This Amendment really contains nothing to which any hon. Member could possibly object. If we were demanding that peace by negotiation should be started to-morrow, or if we were asking something absolutely unreasonable of the Government, then we might be told that opposition was necessary, but there is no part of this Amendment to which any hon. Member who, in common with all the rest of the country, desires peace, and a lasting settlement, could possibly take exception. That is the reason we are justified in attempting to ride over the heads of Ministers while they are recriminating, and to try and see if at last we cannot reach the people in Germany. It is very difficult to know what the German people think. The Leader of the House said that he had read a good deal of German literature before the War, and that what we had regarded as the great spiritual element in the German character had been superseded in later years by a materialist element and the worship of force. It is very difficult to dogmatise upon these matters. We were under the impression at the beginning of the War that Bernhardi's book was the ordinary reading of the German citizen. As a matter of fact, Bernhardi's book went through three editions in Germany, while a book by Baroness Von Zuttner, a pacifist book, called "Lay Down Your Arms," went through 210 editions in Germany. Anybody who has read Bernhardi's book will see that the particular thing of which he complained was the increasing spirit of pacifism in Germany, and that social democracy was breaking down the ideal of militarism in a far more effective and permanent manner than any war could.

I hope that the Government will learn at last that the best prospect for peace is not to make speeches and give utterances, either by note or official document, to the sentiments which must unite all the parties in the German nation, but to do all we can to detach the sane, progressive, and pacific opinion in Germany, so that it may undermine the militarism in that country, which the whole of Europe fears. It is by that means that militarism can be undermined. Here was an opportunity of helping the progressive and pacific sentiment in Germany. It has been missed. If the speech of the late Prime Minister had been the reply of the Government, the Debate would have done nothing but good, but owing to the impatience of the Leader of the House with myself and my Friends, he has missed a great opportunity. He did not seem to realise, as he stood at that box, that he was not speaking to us, but that he was speaking to the world. That is often forgotten by Ministers in this House. I sincerely trust that in our Division tonight we shall give great courage to those people in France, in Germany, in Italy, in Russia, and in all the belligerent countries, who are waiting to see some possible way out of this turmoil, who are beginning to despair of their statesmen, who, in some cases, are ready to overthrow them, and who see that this War, as time goes on, is working itself up to be more and more not a war of one nation against another nation, but a war of the peoples against their own Governments.

I have listened to many of the speeches made in opposition to this Amendment, and in seeking to find what is at the bottom of the opposition of, at any rate, many of the supporters of the Government, and of the Leader of the House in particular, to any movement towards peace, I think it is to be found in the speech of the hon. and gallant Gentleman (General Croft) who represents Tariff Reform opinion in this House and in the country. I noticed the other day, I think on the occasion of the entrance of certain Members into the Ministry, that a rather frenzied deputation waited upon the Leader of the House to ask for an assurance that this did not mean that the Paris Resolutions were going to be dropped. It seemed to me that they got certain assurances. When we seek to find why this great, terrible tragedy should not be brought to an end, while on the surface, to many people who cannot understand what we are fighting for there seems no reason, down below, amongst the section of politicians, is this fact to be found, that to them this War would be lost unless they succeeded in fastening a tariff upon the necks of the people of this country. I believe it is largely the influence of those, not only in this country but also in France, who have these economic views that they wish to get accepted in the peace terms that is at the bottom of the opposition to endeavour to bring about peace and a straightforward statement of the aims of the Allies.

You will get your tax on land when this is over—a tax of £5,000,000,000 or £6,000,000,000. If that is the case, it is a great fraud upon the soldiers in the trenches to-day. The bulk of the men in the trenches, I should say, great numbers of men drawn from the mines and industrial centres, are Free Traders. They are not fighting for the benefit of Tariff Reform brigands who desire through this War to establish a Protectionist system in this country. All through you can see that looming out in the speech of the hon. and gallant Gentleman who represents a very great section in this House and a section outside the House who desire to carry on the War for economic reasons because of their particular Protectionist views. He sees the origin of the War to have been economic. He believes we came into conflict with Germany because Germany desired to expand to the East. There I find myself in agreement with him. I have often urged that that was so. I have not the facts but it has been partly revealed that that policy of German expansion towards the East, the policy associated with the Bagdad railway was supported by the Liberal Government at the time. Concessions were being made in that direction by Sir Edward Grey and, I believe, a treaty was on the very point of being signed in connection with the Grant of the recognition of certain German claims and the right of economic expansion. It is perfectly reasonable to suppose that it should be so. If you say it is not, then you fall into the position of saying that before the War we were endeavouring to circumscribe Germany, to lock her within her present boundaries, and to prevent her economic expansion. You put yourselves in the position of the German militarist party who said that was the aim and object of this country through their alliance with France and Russia. I believe that the probability that this arrangement was being made was the main cause of the War, because German expansion to the East brought her into conflict with Russia. She got down to the grounds of Czardom. The historic ambition of Russia was to secure the reversion of the Turkish Empire and to secure Constantinople, and when the Russian Government, or the Government of this country made economic claims against German expansion in that direction I believe that brought about the conflict between Germany and Russia in the East, which involved us in war. It is essential for us, in dealing with this Resolution, to consider that issue. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to consider any suggestion of peace if you hold to the view expressed by the hon. and gallant Member for Christ-church. He ruled against considering this, because Germany was not conducting the War on Christian principles. So inherently vile and wicked was she met we could not consider the idea of making peace with her. The same very natural and human view was expressed by the hon. Member for Leeds (Mr. O'Grady). On past occasions I have tried to bring my mind to put aside feelings which the evidences of war would arouse. I first saw what was done in war in South Africa. I went there from Australia after the Boer War with a young brother who had been a trooper. I went there simply for the purpose of seeing the new country. We took horses and carts and went through the territory which the Australian contingent had gone over. I travelled for hundreds of miles, seeing an absolutely war - devastated country and every house burned down. You talk of the fruit fields of France. There was not a fruit tree left in the high veldt at that time. I saw the Concentrate camps where 25,000 women and children died, and I say that if in the Boer mind there had been a spirit of vindictiveness you would never have had General Smuts in the War Cabinet of this country. All the time one had the feeling that that was not the work of the British people; that this terrible devastation, this cruelty, this destruction of infant life and the lives of women, was not the work of the British people. It did not mean any individual inhumanity, but was one of the essential results of the infamy or war. Unless we can to some extent put ourselves in the position of the Germans it is very difficult to consider the question of peace.

The hon. Member says it is very easy for me. I endeavour to do it all I can, not for myself, but for the men whom you are keeping in the trenches. That is the reason why I try to do it and try to get the others to do it. You sit here in safety while our men are slaughtered by hundreds of thousands in the trenches.

A young officer of one of the most famous regiments, asked by me a few days ago on the terrace of this House, "Do you know anything about the views of the men in the trenches?" said, "They are all revolutionary in spirit, but they do not want to lay down their rifles afterwards until they have dealt with the politicians who have kept them in the trenches." You may in the end find yourselves in conflict with the men in the trenches. Unless you can see the point of view, I do not say of the German politician but of the German people, it is difficult to make any further approaches towards peace. I think in what I have said that their is good reason to believe, great evidence, that this War arose out of the conflict of economic reasons between Russia and Germany. The German Chancellor the other day in his speech expressed what I think—I may be wrong—is the view of the mass of the German people, that the conditions of conflict arose over the East, that the Russian order of mobilisation was a declaration of war on Germany, and was intended to be so. For reasons which are brought before the German people, which they must regard as being reasonable ones, this is what they believe. They point, for instance, to the fact that there were 100,000 revolutionaries out in Petrograd, that the Revolution was on the point of breaking out, had broken out, in almost every great civic centre in Russia. They hold that the Czar and his camarilla—and what people we were dealing with we now know—thought to save the dynasty by a successful war—a very old expedient of despotism. They were glad to bring about war at that moment, to raise the cry, "This is a holy War for Slavdom. We are to reach Constantinople. We are assured by the 'Times' and the other London papers that we shall have the help of the British in securing this object, which they prevented us from achieving in the past." Thus was given to the German people what is alleged to be the order of the Czar, which was found in the office of the Governor of Warsaw when Warsaw was taken. The order, signed by the Czar in simple terms, was an order of mobilisation, and was a declaration of war on Germany. It is this condition that was forced on them by Russia that is the cause of the solidarity of the German people behind its Government. We have heard suggestions of conference in this Debate. I believe that it was the last speech made by the late Foreign Secretary. He said that he would like to see a conference to determine whether the Russian order of mobilisation was an act of aggression.

The Conference I want to see is one to determine the question whether the Germans were justified in regarding the despotic Czar, when he ordered mobilisation, as having by that action declared war upon Germany. If that was so, then the view that the Germans are alone responsible for having brought this terrible catastrophe upon the world must be mitigated or withdrawn, and that would make it more possible to consider any question of peace. The Leader of the House, in one passage of his speech, said that in the interests of peace this Amendment was a mistake; he rather suggested that it was a mistake, because we were at a time of crisis. When are we to be permitted to discuss peace? When can we discuss that question without its being thought injudicious? [An HON. MEMBER: "When we have won the War!"] Only nine months ago the Prime Minister was telling us that the Germans were squealing for peace, and that was not the time to talk about peace; or if there were victories and then to talk of peace was again inopportune—we must give the "knock-out" blow. As to the German "squealing for peace," what has been happening as regards the War Cabinet, created by strange and subterranean methods, to win the War more quickly? No; when we propose to talk of peace, we are refused, and we are told that it might weaken the nerves of the people. I take a different view. I think that the action of the German Reichstag is a method of strengthening the nerves of the people. I think it will consolidate the German people and, especially, enthuse the German Army, because they will know, from the Resolution, that the representatives of the people are searching all possible means to arrive at peace and put an end to the conditions now being forced upon them. It seems to me that it is a way to strengthen the Government and to strengthen the nerves of the people behind the Government. An Australian soldier told me that the way the Australian soldiers regarded this War was much in the way they would look upon a strike. While engaged in the strike they would expect their leaders to go on negotiating and would not stop while the negotiations were in progress. Thus they felt they were not striking for the mere sake of striking. That, I think, must naturally be the view of the soldiers in the trenches. It would not be at all the view of Members on those benches. The fact that a change has taken place in the views not only of men in the tranches, but in the country cannot be denied by anybody who knows the feeling that exists amongst the men. Perhaps I may refer to a challenge which the hon. Member for Christchurch repeated. He made it on a former occasion. I replied to it then. He said that if any Member of those who desired the opening of peace negotiations would resign from his seat that he would go down and fight him in that constituency. I said at once I would accept the challenge under one condition, that you would remove the Defence of the Realm Act for the time of the fight and give me the information that I required. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] Of course you do not desire the proof I know. HoN. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] Recently I held two great meetings in my Constituency. [An HON. MEMBER: "Ticket meetings!"] No, they were not like the Prime Minister's meetings. I wish he would come to open meetings instead of, as at Glasgow, surrounded by troops with fixed bayonets.

On what authority does the hon. Member say such a thing occurred in Glasgow?

Mr. OUTHWAITE rose—

It is not a particular insult to the right hon. Gentleman if it were not true, but I believe it is true. An hon. Member said mine were ticket meetings, and I said it would be a very good thing if the Prime Minister would attend some open meetings in the country, and he would find that the feeling of the country was somewhat different from this House.

Those meetings I held were attended by colliers in the main. When I first came on the platform I simply recited the reasons—

I am quite prepared to do so—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"]—but I would point out the difficulty in which a Member is placed by being subjected to constant interruptions. I am trying to point out that the feeling in the country has changed—this in reply to the challenge of the hon. Member for Christchurch. So far as I have been able to test the feeling of the workers in my own Constituency a great change, virtually a revolutionary feeling, is taking place. [Interruption.] It is all right; they had not put me out. By the time of the election the revolutionary feeling will be greater. I was arguing that the passing of a Resolution such as this does not unnerve the people, does not weaken the position of the Government. Quite the reverse! What would weaken the Government and their control over this War is a spread of the feeling of unrest and discontent, and almost a spirit of revolution. There is only one thing that has kept the mass of the workers of this country quiet at the present time: that is regard for their fellows in the trenches; the fear that they might injure them. If for one moment they thought that their not taking action was leading to a sacrifice of these men then you would have in this country undoubtedly an explosion of almost revolutionary force. I believe that it is by this House having regard to this—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide:!"] I do not believe that in shirking negotiations you will get a more stable Government in this country. I know the hon. Member for Blackburn has been challenged for his statements in regard to conditions in France. I do not want to add to what he said except to ask hon. Members, who think that there is no ground for alarm in France, to read the speeches made by the Minister for War in the French Chamber, which showed all through much concern as to the feeling of the soldiers in the trenches and a fear of the spread of discontent among them. You undoubtedly have a grave spirit of unrest in Italy. You have seen already what has happened as regards Russia because you refused to consider the desires of the Provisional Government in the matter of making peace. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] In refusing to consider this matter the people will take the matter in hand and you will have—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"]

There is one interesting fact to which I think attention ought to be called. This Debate has turned upon the question of the acquisitions the Allies ought to have in view. The question of whether any man can or cannot vote for the Amendment depends upon the view as to whether he will in supporting the Amendment commit the Allies against acquisitions. Several forms of acquisitions have been criticised. The noticeable point to my mind is that in each case there has been an absence of argument in favour of these acquisitions. If I myself am unable to vote for the Amendment it is because there is at least one acquisition already made by one of our Allies, namely Russia, in the Armenian vilayet which I would not like to see reversed. Two other forms of acquisition have been dismissed to-night, one in regard to Alsace-Lorraine. The Minister of Blockade certainly made a very startling statement on Tuesday, and another matter was raised by the Noble Lord (Lord Henry Cavendish-Bentinck) in the matter of Austria. I will call attention to a fact of very vital importance which was raised, that in several speeches on Tuesday not a single argument was adduced by those who desire to see the policy of delenda Austria carried out. A movement which has been brought to our attention by a circular in the last few days, signed, amongst others, by officials in Government employ, and in this connection we have heard the hon. Member for St. Augustine's, the hon. Member for Inverness Burghs, and, again, the hon. Member for Perth, speak; but not a single argument has been adduced in reply to the criticisms of the policy by any one of them. I just wanted to call attention to the startling proposal which has just been put before us without a single argument being advanced in its favour.

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question, "That the Question be now put," put, and agreed to.

Question put accordingly, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The House divided: Ayes, 148; Noes, 19.

Division No. 79.]

AYES.

[11.1 p.m.

Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

Galbraith, Samuel

Parker, James (Halifax)

Baird, John Lawrence

Gibbs, Col. George Abraham

Parrott, Sir James Edward

Baidwin, Stanley

Gilbert, J. D.

Pearce, Sir Robert (Staff, Leek)

Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

Goldstone, Frank

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike(Darlingt'n)

Barnes, Rt. Hon. George N.

Greenwood, Sir G. G. (Peterborough)

Peto, Basil Edward

Barnett, Capt. R. W.

Greig, Colonel J. W.

Pollock, Ernest Murray

Barran, Sir Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.)

Gretton, John

Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest George

Bathurst, Col. Hon A. B. (Glouc., E.)

Hanson, Charles Augustin

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Beauchamp, Sir Edward

Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

Radford, Sir George Heynes

Beck, Arthur Cecil

Harris, Rt. Hon. F. L. (Worcester, E.)

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Bellairs, Commander C. W.

Harris, Percy A. (Leicester, S.)

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Bean, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

Haslam, Lewis

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish

Hermon-Hodge, Sir R. T.

Roes, G. C. (Carnarvonshire, Arton)

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Hewart, Sir Gordon

Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith

Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

Roberts, Sir J. H (Denbighs)

Boyton, James

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Roch, Walter F.

Bridgeman, William Clive

Houston, Robert Paterson

Rowlands, James

Brunner, John F L.

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

Bryce, J. Annan

Hudson, Walter

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Burn, Colonel C. R.

Hughes, Spencer Leigh

Samuels, Arthur W.

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Hunt, Major Rowland

Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

Cator, John

Illingworth, Rt. Hon. Albert M.

Sanders, Col. Robert Arthur

Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George

Jessel, Col. Sir Herbert M.

Seely, Lt.-Col. Sir C. H. (Mansfield)

Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick

Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

Sherwell, Arthur James

Cecil. Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen. East)

Shortt, Edward

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University)

Jones, W. Kennedy (Hornsey)

Spear, Sir John Ward

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord Robert (Herts, Hitchin)

Joynson-Hicks, William

Stanier, Captain Sir Beville

Coates, Major Sir Henry Feetham

Kellaway, Frederick George

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Sir A. H. (Asht'n-u-Lyne)

Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon)

Larmor, Sir J.

Steel-Maitland, Sir A. D.

Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

Stewart, Gershom

Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert

Stirling, Lieut.-Col. Archibald

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Lindsay, William Arthur

Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

Cory, Sir Clifford John (St. Ives)

Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury)

Tennant, Rt. Hon. Harold John

Cowan, Sir W. H.

Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)

Craig, Colonel James (Down, E.)

Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

Toulmin, Sir George

Craik, Sir Henry

M'Callum, Sir John M.

Tryon, Captain George Clement

Croft, Brigadier-General Henry Page

Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Incs)

Currie, George W.

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

Wardle, George J.

Dalrymple, Hon. H. H.

Maden, Sir John Henry

Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T.

Davies, David (Montgomery CO.)

Mallalieu, Frederick William

Watson, Hon. W. (Lanark, S.)

Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir J. B.

Marks, Sir George Croydon

Watson, John B. (Stockton)

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred

Williams Aneurin (Durham, N. W.)

Edge, Captain William

Money, Sir L. G. Chiozza

Williams, Col. Sir Robert (Dorset, W.)

Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Fell, Arthur

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Wilson-Fox, Henry

Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

Newman, John R. P,

Yate, Colonel C. E.

Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes (Fulham)

Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

Yeo, Alfred William

Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

O'Grady, James

Fleming, Sir John

O'Neill, Capt. Hon. H. (Antrim, Mid)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Lord

Fletcher, John Samuel

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Edmund Talbot and Capt. F. Guest

Foster, Philip Staveley

NOES.

Anderson, W. C.

Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

Arnold, Sidney

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

Chancellor, Henry George

King, Joseph.

Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

Whitehouse, John Howard

Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

Mason, David M. (Coventry

Snowden, Philip

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

Morrell, Philip

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Lees Smith and Mr. Jowett.

Outhwaite, R. L.

Main Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.

Expiring Laws Continuance Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

May I ask the hon. Member if he will allow us to take the Second Reading? There has been no objection by hon. Members on the other side.

I am afraid I cannot give way.

Second Reading deferred till To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

New Ministries (Salaries and Remuneration)

Committee to consider of authorising the payment out of moneys to be provided by Parliament of an annual salary not exceeding £2,000 to the Minister of Reconstruction, appointed under any Act of the present Session, to provide for the establishment of a Ministry of Reconstruction, and of other salaries and remuneration which may become payable under such Act ( King's Recommendation signified ), To-morrow.—[ Lord E. Talbot. ]

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at twelve minutes after Eleven o'clock, till to-morrow (Friday), pursuant to the Resolution of the House this day.