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Commons Chamber

Volume 96: debated on Monday 30 July 1917

House of Commons

Monday, July 30, 1917

Private Business

Chepstow Water Bill,

Port of London Authority (Various Powers) Bill,

Sheffield Corporation Bill,

Sheffield United Gaslight Company Bill,

Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.

South Eastern and London, Chatham, and Dover Railways Bill,

Lords Amendments to be considered To-morrow.

Caerphilly Urban District Council Bill [ Lords ],

Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.

Richmond (Surrey) Electricity Supply Bill [ Lords ],

Read a second time, and committed.

Metropolitan Water Board

Copy presented of Fourteenth Annual Report of the Metropolitan Water Board [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Road Board

Copy presented of Seventh Annual Report of Proceedings of the Road Board [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 119.]

Light Railways Acts, 1896 and 1912

Copy presented of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, entitled the Milford and Saint Bride's Bay Light Railway Order, 1916 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Copy presented of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, entitled the West Sussex Light Railway Order, 1915 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Companies (Winding-Up)

Copy presented of Twenty-sixth General Annual Report by the Board of Trade under Section 283 of the Companies (Consolidated) Act, 1908 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 120.]

Paper laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House:—

Caledonian Canal—Copy of One hundred and Twelfth Report of the Commissioners of the Caladonian Canal [by Act]; to be printed. [No. 121.]

Corn Production Bill

Copy ordered "of Clause 7 of the Corn Production Bill, as amended in Committee."—[ Mr. Prothero. ]

Copy presented accordingly; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 122.]

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Allies' Conference (Paris)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can now give the House any information about the recent Conference in Paris on the, Balkan questions; whether the future of Constantinople was there discussed; if so, whether any decision was agreed to; and whether the results of the Conference have been, or will be, submitted to the United States Government with a request for their adhesion?

I have nothing to add to the official report of the Conference, which has been published.

In view of the fact that this is our War, cannot we have any information about it?

I have already stated that the information has been given in the public Press?

As no information was given in the official statement in the Press about the United States, will the last part of the question on the Paper be answered and some attempt be made to give us a little information?

We are in full communication with the United States on all matters in which both Governments are interested.

Brazil

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received and acknowledged an intimation from our Brazilian Ally that her Navy has undertaken the work of patrolling the American coast from the Guianas to Rio Grande do Sul; and, if so, whether he is prepared to make any statement on the subject?

An intimation to this effect has been received, and due acknowledgment has been made to our Brazilian Ally.

Food Supplies

Wheat

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether his technical Committee has yet completed their estimate of the present cost of growing a quarter of wheat; and, if so, whether he will give it to the House, so that it may be compared with the figure of 67s. 6d. which he has given for two East Anglican farms?

The President proposes to furnish the estimate in question, with other figures, before the Report stage of the Corn Production Bill.

Restricted Imports (Apples)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Controller of Import Restrictions has received representations in favour of permitting the importation of apples shipped in space not required for other essential commodities; and whether he is in a position to make a statement on this subject?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave to the hon. and gallant Member, for the Enfield Division of Middlesex last Friday, of which I am sending him a copy.

Questions

Coal Supply

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the fact that on 23rd June, 1917, a colliery company offered to supply a local merchant at Alton, Hants, with anthracite coal de-livered at Aldershot for 29s. 8d. per ton, subject to any restrictions which the Government might impose; that on 3rd July the coal merchant accepted the offer for five trucks, but the colliery company wrote regretting that owing to a new Order made by the Coal Controller they could not supply the coal at less than 35s. per ton; if he can state the reason why the Coal Controller ordered the price of the coal to be raised to 35s. from the quoted price of 29s. 8d.; and under what power, statutory or otherwise, does the Controller act in fixing prices?

The case which the hon. Member mentions probably arises out of the operation of Part I. of the Directions as to the Sale of Coal issued by the Controller of Coal Mines on the 28th June last under Regulation 9 G of the Defence of the Realm Regulations. These directions contain no provision affecting the right of consumers in the United Kingdom to purchase anthracite at prices in accordance with the Price of Coal (Limitation) Act, but in order to avoid fluctations in price under abnormal market conditions they provide that the prices to which colliers are entitled under the Act shall in all cases be maintained.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Coal Controller has informed colliery companies who usually supply coal mer- chants at Alton that the bulk of their output must be delivered to London merchants within fifteen miles of Charing Cross, and that consequently they cannot supply coal to Alton; that the London coal merchants are sending coal to Alton to the former customers of the local merchants; and under what Act the Coal Controller is empowered to further the interests of the London coal merchants and to prohibit country merchants from dealing in coal?

The only instructions of the Controller of Coal Mines which seem to have any bearing on this case are those issued at the end of March requiring collieries in the districts normally supplying London to send to London the same quantities day by day as were sent last year If the hon. Member will send the Controller particulars of this complaint it will receive his attention.

Merchant Service (Employment of Officers on Parole)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the fact that there are a number of officers of the merchant service who have been released on parole by the Germans and who, being consequently debarred from employment at sea under existing conditions, are unable to find employment; whether both the Board of Trade and the Home Office have recently made temporary appointments which could have been filled by these officers; whether, as a matter of fact, any of these officers have been placed in a suitable position by his Department; and whether he will at once see that effective steps are taken to deal with the question?

I understand, to my regret, that some officers of the merchant service who have been released on parole have found difficulty in obtaining suitable employment. As stated in answer to previous questions, anything that is possible is being and will be done to help these men to obtain suitable employment; but the Board of Trade cannot itself take the responsibility of guaranteeing employment even in deserving cases like these. The recent temporary Board of Trade appointments to which the hon. Member refers were given to ex-master mariners who, in the opinion of the local principal officer, were best suited for the work in hand.

Has the hon. Gentleman, consulted, or will he consult, with the Admiralty as to shore jobs which these men are well able to perform and in which the Admiralty may be able to assist the Board of Trade in finding the necessary employment?

Steaming Without Lights at Sea

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will now treat collisions at sea due to steaming without lights as due to warlike operations in respect of gratuities and pensions for injury or death; and whether this decision will be retrospective in effect?

The principle that collisions directly due to steaming without lights should be regarded as due to war perils for the purposes of the Government Officers' and Seamen's Compensation Scheme has been acted on for some time. The decision is retrospective.

Life-Saving Appliances

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether Section 13, paragraph 6, of the Board of Trade Regulations with regard to life-saving appliances. (Cd. 7342) provides that where more boats than one are served by the same set of davits arrangements shall be made to prevent the falls fouling when they are recovered, and that an approved appliance for lowering the boats in turn, and rapidly, shall be provided; and whether the Board of Trade have adopted or propose adopting any method or appliance to avoid danger from this cause, and give effect to the Regulation?

Various methods have been, and are being, adopted to prevent fouling, such as the fitting of non-toppling blocks, the use of single wire falls, etc. Appliances have also been approved for lowering boats in turn and rapidly, and others are under consideration.

Railway Fares (School Excursions)

asked the Parliamentary-Secretary to the Board of Trade if he will recommend to the Railway Commissioners the desirability of revising the fares on school children's treats excursions which take place daily in poor districts of the East End of London to Epping Forest?

I am making inquiries into this matter, and will communicate with the hon. Gentleman shortly.

Tate Gallery (Board of Trustees)

asked the First Commissioner of Works whether any exception has been taken recently to the constitution of the board of trustees of the Tate Gallery?

A memorial taking exception to the constitution of the board was addressed to the Treasury on behalf of British art institutions, its terms have been published in the daily Press.

Is it not a fact that an eminent artist declined to serve on the board of trustees, and can the hon. Gentleman give the reason?

Munitions

College of Science (Dublin)

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he applied to the College of Science of Dublin to learn if it had the necessary facilities for giving instruction in nickel and brass casting before he transferred men from Ireland to Sheffield; and whether, in addition to the facilities provided at the College of Science in Dublin for instruction, work of this kind is actually being executed for the Government by a Dublin firm?

In reply to the first part of the question, I am informed that the facilities provided at Sheffield University, which specialises in the particular work for which the men were required to be trained, are unrivalled in the country, and that there are no equivalent facilities in Ireland. I am not aware that this particular metal has been supplied to the Ministry of Munitions by any Dublin firm.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the Minister of Munitions did inquire of the College of Science, Dublin, whether or not it had facilities for giving this instruction?

The answer I have given shows that we were satisfied that no such facilities did exist in Ireland.

Where did he get the information from; did the hon. Gentleman apply to the College of Science, which itself is a Government Department?

I found that the Department had full information of such facilities as were available in Ireland.

Civil Servants

asked the Minister of Munitions whether it is the practice of his Department to have a Civil servant at the head of every branch; and whether, therefore, there are Civil servants from the Post Office and other branches of the Civil Service to look after the ordering of munitions of various kinds?

The answer to the first part of the question is that there is no such practice. A number of Civil servants have been seconded for service in the Ministry. The decisions on the technical questions involved in the placing of contracts are taken by technical men.

Machine Gun Coeps Equipment

asked the Minister of Munitions if he will take the necessary steps to put a stop to the waste of public money as well as metal and labour in the continued production of the metal clips and cotton bandoliers which are still being supplied to the Machine Gun Corps at the front, although these clips and bandoliers are purely an Infantry equipment for soldiers using a rifle and are not required at all for machine-gun work; and if he is aware that at the present time, as in the past, with the exception of a minimum quantity which are picked up and returned, nearly all these clips and bandoliers issued to Machine Gun Corps are thrown away as useless impedimenta, and that, as at the present time more than half of the small-arm cartridges used at the front are issued to machine gunners, he would be enabled to effect a saving of at least a £1,000,000 per war-year if this issue to the Machine Gun Corps was cancelled and the metal of which these clips is composed utilised for other purposes for which it is so urgently required?

My right hon. Friend is in communication with the Army Council upon this subject.

Committees of Employers and Trade Unionists

asked the Minister of Munitions whether, in view of the recommendations of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the industrial unrest, it is proposed to take immediate steps to set up in the munitions centres representative committees of employers and trade unionists; what methods it is proposed to adopt in order to secure committees which will command general confidence; what powers it is proposed to entrust to the committees; and whether in order to give the new machinery adequate scope and to ensure the decentralisation of control recommended by the Commissioners, he will consider the expediency of basing the proposed committees on the existing enlistment complaints committees?

My right hon. Friend is considering this matter, but I am not in a position to make any statement at the moment.

Machinery (Permits for Purchase and Imports)

asked the Minister of Munitions under what conditions permits for the purchase or importing of machinery necessary for the fulfilment of their contracts are granted or withheld from manufacturers of munitions; whether he has had occasion to refuse such permits; and, if so, on what grounds?

In considering applications for leave to purchase machinery, whether of British or foreign origin, it is the practice of the Ministry to take into account— The object of these conditions is to assist output, and permits are refused where they are not satisfied.

Trench Warfare Department

asked the Minister of Munitions what qualifications are required for directors of the Trench Warfare Department of the Ministry of Munitions entrusted with the responsibility for safety conditions in national and other explosives-filling stations and factories; and whether the appointments to such posts are made by the Ministry of Munitions or by any other Department of State?

The responsibility for inspecting and reporting upon safety conditions in factories handling explosives under the Trench Warfare Supply Department of the Ministry rests, not with the Directors of the Department, but, so far as national factories are concerned, with the Safety of Factories Branch of the Explosives Supply Department of the Ministry, and, as far as trade factories are concerned, with the Home Office. The Director of the Safety of Factories Branch is an officer of the Ministry. The inspectors of the Home Office are appointed by the Secretary of State.

Hospital Nurses in France (Income Tax)

asked the Secretary to the Treasury if an English lady who is appointed by the London Committee of the French Red Cross and is engaged at a hospital in France, and was not resident in England in consequence during the year 1916–17, has lost her right to claim a return of Income Tax to which she would otherwise be entitled; whether she can be said to come within the provisions of Section 71 of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, and if she can be said to be resident abroad within the meaning of the Act; and if the Treasury can give directions to meet similar cases of hardship?

I will gladly have inquiry made if my hon. Friend will furnish me with details of the case he has in mind.

It is not a question of any lady who is in France as a hospital assistant nurse. Are they being treated as residents abroad or residents in this country? Somerset House officials claim that they are resident abroad. It is suggested that hospital nurses are not resident abroad under the Act. It is a general question.

If my hon. Friend can give me a specific case, I will investigate it and give a satisfactory answer.

Enemy Air Raids

Metropolitan Police District

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will supply the complete figures of those killed and injured in hostile air raids and in street accidents in the London Metropolitan area from the commencement of the War to date?

The figures are as follows:—

East Coast Towns

asked the Home Secretary whether, on the occasion of last. Sunday's air raid on the East Coast towns, the warning that enemy aeroplanes were about was not given at Ipswich or Felix-stowe until the bombardment was all over; and, if so, whether he will make inquiries as to who is responsible for this neglect?

I understand from the police that at Felixstowe the usual warning to the public could not be given before the bombardment took place owing to the shortness of the interval after the enemy were first sighted. As to Ipswich, I am making inquiries.

Instructions to Officers

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether in view of the importance of our airmen getting up in the air as speedily as possible on the approach of enemy machines, they are constantly kept below waiting for orders from a distant authority; and, if so, whether he will at once give instructions for the officers at the various aerodromes when a raid is in progress to act on their own initiative?

The answer to both parts of my right hon. Friend's question is in the negative.

Hendon Acceptance Park

asked the-Under-Secretary of State for War whether a number of German prisoners were recently employed in work at the Hendon aeroplane acceptance park; whether, in the course of their employment, they were allowed to approach within a short distance of aeroplanes situated there; and whether he will take steps to see that, in view of the danger of any such arrangement, German prisoners shall not be employed at aerodromes, or air-sheds, or aeroplane works, or anywhere near them?

German prisoners were employed on returfing and road building, under a guard, at Hendon on the occasion mentioned. No prisoner was less than 300 yards from the nearest aeroplane. As I explained in answer to the hon. Member for Hertford on the 20th instant, the employment of German prisoners on work of this character and on the construction of aerodromes and sheds or enlargement of existing establishments has been found necessary incases where civil labour is scarce or difficult to procure, in order not to delay the completion of urgent services, but I am assured that proper precautions are taken to prevent their approaching aeroplanes or working sheds.

Did this work on which the German prisoners were employed take place shortly before the air raid on London on 7th July?

As I have stated in my answer, these men were employed on returning and road building on the occasion mentioned.

I did not mention any date. When were these men employed at the place mentioned in my question?

I think I am safe in saying that they were employed some time during this month.

I am perfectly satisfied, if the hon. Gentleman gives me an answer, to take it as decisive. Does he know?

I cannot exactly say. The answer which I have given says "on the occasion mentioned" I presume that my hon. Friend refers to the occasion when the air raid took place.

Is not that really toying with the question and playing with the House? I said "recently employed" in the question.

I may answer my hon. Friend by saying that they were employed recently.

Questions

Plain Clothes Policemen (Houses of Parliament)

asked the Home Secretary how many police in plain clothes were brought into the precincts of this House on 25th July; how many of these were of military age; and whether he will say on how many days last week plain-clothes policemen were on duty in this House?

Police protection was afforded at the request of Mr. Speaker. All police dispositions are necessarily confidential, and unless the House so desires I do not propose to call for this information.

Enemy Aliens

asked the Home Secretary if he can ascertain and give the nationality of a chiropodist, trading as J. Mock, of 1 and 3, Warwick Street, Regent Street; whether this person is of military age; and if he can say why he is not either serving if he is British or interned if he is an enemy alien?

J. Mock is an Austrian subject, aged forty-one, who has been nineteen years in this country and has a British-born wife. He was exempted from internment in 1915 on the recommendation of the Advisory Committee.

I made fresh inquiries about him early in the present year, but found no reason for thinking it desirable to cancel his exemption.

asked the Home Secretary if he is aware of the close commercial connection between Arthur Levi, an enemy alien, now trading under the name of Stacey, at 78, Great Russell Street, and the old enemy firm known as the Berlin Photographic Company, of 149, New Bond Street; if he is aware that the business of the Berlin Photographic Company was sold by order of the Public Trustee, and that the manager of the company, Arthur Levi, was a considerable purchaser of the stock, and that enemy traders such as Levi are now maintaining and building up businesses in this country to the disadvantage and loss of the British trade, the owners, managers, and staff of which have been placed at a disadvantage owing to the majority of their number having joined the fighting forces of their country; and, if so, will he take action to prevent the continuation of such trading?

The questions raised are mainly for the Board of Trade, and I am calling the attention of the board to the matter. But I may add that Mr. Arthur Levi has signed a form offering to undertake work of national importance, and the National Service Department is being asked to find him such work.

asked the Home Secretary if his attention has been called to the successful efforts of enemy aliens to carry on the interests of enemy firms which have been supposed to have been abolished and sold up by orders of the Public Trustee; if he is aware, for instance, that the German trade in the cheaper kinds of reproductions of pictures, prints, and engravings is still being fostered for future expansion after the War; whether he knows that such firms as Haufstaengl, formerly trading in a large way at Pall Mall East, were in the habit of concealing their real profits in this country from the Inland Revenue authorities by the device of invoicing goods which had only cost a few pence to produce in Germany and to deliver in this country at sums far in excess of their cost and value, so that a reproduction, for instance, which had cost, say, 5d. to reproduce would by being invoiced over here at 4s. 11d. show only the meagre profit on the books in London of 1d. if sold at 5s.; if he is aware that, although the firm mentioned, Haufstaengl, has been closed by order of the Public Trustee, the apparent manager is still carrying on the same kind of business at premises known as the Little Art Rooms, Adelphi; if he knows that the apparent owner of this business was the former representative of Haufstaengl; that his name was H. E. A. Furst; and that he now calls himself Furst, without the German distinction over the second letter of his name; and if, in the interests of British trade, he will take steps to intern this man and all other enemy-born traders like him, naturalised or unnaturalised?

I know nothing about the business of Hanfstaengl, except that it has been wound up by order of the Board of Trade and no alien enemy would be allowed to carry it on. Mr. Furst is a naturalised British subject. Careful inquiry was made into his case at the beginning of 1916, and the Advisory Committee were then of opinion that there were no grounds for interning him or imposing restrictions on him under Article 14B of the Defence of the Realm Regulations. He has done nothing since that time which would justify me in asking the Committee to reconsider the case.

asked the Home Secretary whether in view of the fact that Louis Ferdinand Kehrhan was interned in Brixton Prison on account of his escape from an internment camp, he will now state what is to be the length of such detention; and what the authorities intend to do with the prisoner on the expiry of the period?

Kehrhan is interned because after careful consideration by the Advisory Committee and by successive Home Secretaries it is deemed necessary in the interests of public safety and the defence of the realm that he should not be at large. He will not be detained longer than those interests demand, but no further statement with regard to his release can be made at the present time.

Military Service

Exemption Cancelled

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that George Butt, of Knowle, Braunton, North Devon, managing single-handed a 4-acre fruit farm and market garden for a soldier on active service, was granted work of national importance on the land by the Hampstead local tribunal in May, 1916; that at Easter of the same year he was accused of distributing seditious leaflets but was able to satisfy the police of his innocence; that, as a result of this, however, his exemption was reviewed and cancelled by the Barn-staple local and appeal tribunals; and whether, in view of the fact that he is a whole-time agricultural worker, this is a violation of the arrangement between the Director of Recruiting and the Association of War Agricultural Committees in April last?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to his question. I understand that the exemption held on conscientious grounds by George Butt was withdrawn by the Hampstead Local Tribunal, and that he did not appeal to the London Appeal Tribunal, but made a subsequent application to the Barnstaple Local Tribunal, and later appealed to the Devon Appeal Tribunal, who refused exemption. The only question before the tribunals was whether exemption should be given on the ground of conscientious objection, and they had to confine their decision to this matter.

Watchmaker's Business (Invergordon)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the naval authorities at Invergordon intimated on 26th March of this year that they would not oppose Miss Dora Merrens, nineteen years of age, coming to Invergordon to manage the watchmaker and jeweller's business of her brother while he was serving in the British Army, and that it is the Scottish Command headquarters in Edinburgh that are preventing the continuation of this soldier's business while he is at the War; and, if so, will he see that his Department does not treat thus soldiers who are offering their lives for their country?

The naval authorities intimated on 26th March that they would not oppose an application for Miss Merrens to visit Invergordon, and I understand that she was permitted to visit Invergordon for a month for the purpose of straightening out her business. It is not considered desirable that she should be allowed to remain there permanently. I am informed that the Invergordon business is not the sole support of the family and that they have two shops elsewhere.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this lady is resident in the College Division, which is represented by my hon. Friend (Mr. Watt), and that her brother is fighting at the front, and will he state why is it that the girl cannot carry on her brother's business while he is fighting with the British Army?

I am told that her brother is in a labour battalion in the neighbourhood of Calais. The senior naval authority at Invergordon has opposed the granting of any further extension of leave to Miss Merrens.

Do I understand the reason for the refusal to allow this girl to carry on her brother's business to be that he is serving in a labour battalion, which is one form of service on behalf of the Crown?

My hon. Friend must not understand that. It is in accordance with the opinion formed by the competent military authority.

Conscientious Objectors

asked the Under-secretary of State for War whether Emanuel Ribeiro, a conscientious objector at Lord Derby's hospital at Winnick, near Warrington, is still being forcibly fed; if so, will he say if this has been going on since January; has he now been placed on the lunatic side of the hospital, although he is perfectly sane; and, seeing that by suffering in this way for his principles for so many months he has proved the genuine character of his conscientious objection, whether he will be released forthwith?

It is necessary to make local inquiries before this question can be answered. I have called for a report, and will inform my hon. Friend of the result as soon as I can. Meanwhile I do not hold out any prospect of this man's release.

asked the Undersecretary of State for War the number of conscientious objectors who have refused to go before the Central Tribunal and the number deemed by the Central Tribunal as not genuine?

I have been asked to answer this question. I am informed that the number of men who have refused to accept the conditions of the inquiry into their cases by the Central Tribunal is 505; and, in addition, 158 men who have been examined have not been offered work under the Home Office Committee in consequence of the reports by the Central Tribunal.

asked the Undersecretary of State for War if G. F. Dutch, 32nd Training Reserve Battalion, Longhill Camp, Dover, was court-martialled for the fourth time on 8th June at Dover; if a month later, 5th July, his sentence was promulgated; if this sentence of three years' penal servitude was commuted to two years' hard labour; if Dutch is still in the detention cells at Longhill Camp; and, if so, why he has not been removed to a civil prison?

I have called for a report on this matter, and will write to my hon. Friend as soon as I am in a position to do so.

Inoculation and Vaccination

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War (1) if he is aware that, contrary to Army Council Instructions, the Officer Commanding the 71st Division has recently issued an order to the officers commanding companies that furlough should not be granted, except in circumstances that call for very special consideration, to any non-commissioned officer or man who refuses to be inoculated or vaccinated; whether he will have such an order withdrawn and prevent such non-commissioned officers and men from being penalised for acting on the faith of the Army Council's own instructions; (2) whether he is aware that Gunner G. E. Smith, of 396th Battery, Royal Field Artillery, Westbere Camp, was repeatedly paraded for inoculation, and on exercising his legal right of refusal was each time placed under open arrest, charged, and remanded, but not brought to trial; that under this persecution his consent was obtained against his will and convictions; whether any reprimand has been or will be issued to the officer responsible for this violation of the soldier's rights; and whether the same kind of pressure is to be used to compel him to accept vaccination?

I am making inquiries into the matters raised by my hon. Friend in these questions, and will inform him of the result.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Private Stubbs, of the 13th North Staffordshire Regiment, is now in No. 1, C Ward, of the Military Hospital, Canterbury, suffering from pneumonia following inoculation and vaccination; that after these he had to undergo long marches with heavy packs; that this man, who only joined up some six or seven weeks ago, was then in perfect health; that he was inoculated on one arm and vaccinated on the other soon after joining his regiment; that the vaccination caused two large sores to develop on his arm; and that the supervening illness was so serious that his relatives were sent for from Staffordshire; and whether the practice of vaccinating between the two inoculations will be stopped and the men allowed to recover from the effects of these operations before being subjected to work and conditions which in the disturbed state of their health may have serious effects?

I have called for a report, and will communicate with my hon. Friend as soon as possible.

Bank Holiday (Calling-Up Notices)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that a number of married men in Classes C 2 and C 3 have received calling-up papers to report themselves for military service on 3rd August; and will he consider the advisability of postponing this call until after the Bank Holiday, so that these men can spend the Bank Holiday with their families?

I regret that I am unable to adopt the suggestion made by my hon. Friend. The necessities of the Service make it impossible to interfere with the arrangements made for the provision of recruits, and I do not think that it would be fair, even if it were possible, to discriminate between different classes.

As these men will not reach their depots until Saturday afternoon or Saturday night, what possible use will they be before Monday?

I am afraid that I cannot usefully add anything to the answer which I have given. If I made any such promise as my hon. Friend suggests it would be an unfairness to the other classes of recruits.

Institutional Treatment

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that ex-Private W. Cahill, No. 4558, 4th Seaforth Highlanders, who was discharged from hospital and from the Army in November last suffering from shell-shock, and is still in such a condition that his limbs are continually shaking, has been informed that he may have institutional treatment on condition that he sacrifices 1s. a day from his pension whilst he is in residence during treatment; and whether, under the circumstances, he will arrange to remit this charge?

I have been asked by the Minister of Pensions to reply for him. Under Article 6 of the new Royal Warrant special allowances equivalent to pension for the highest degree of disablement are payable during a period of treatment or training, and when such treatment is given in an institution a deduction from the allowance is authorised to be made towards the cost of the man's maintenance. This deduction has been fixed at the uniform rate of 1s. a day whatever the actual cost of the man's maintenance and treatment may amount to. It leaves the man if a private 20s. 6d. a week for himself, and, in addition, allowances are paid to his wife for herself and the children or to dependants This appears to me to be a generous provision, and I am not, on the facts presented by the hon. Member, prepared to increase it.

May I ask whether in many of these cases, the allowance is not paid to the wife, but only for the children?

I am answering the question only for my right hon. Friend, and I am not in a position to reply to supplementary questions.

Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if no sea experience is necessary previous to obtaining a commission in the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, while before being commissioned in the Royal Naval Reserve a candidate must have been at sea for at least one year or, alternatively, he must have served for two years on His Majesty's ship "Worcester" or His Majesty's ship "Conway"; and what is the daily pay of a midshipman in the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve and the Royal Naval Reserve?

I assume from the wording of this question that it is intended to relate to young officers entered as midshipmen in the Royal Naval Reserve and the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve respectively. The service required for midshipmen, Royal Naval Reserve, is as stated in the question, but if a candidate has served nearly a year at sea he is generally accepted if his next voyage would more than complete a year. A small number only of midshipmen, Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, has been entered. No previous sea experience is required in their case, but those who have had any are given preference. As regards the last part of the question, the pay of a midshipman, Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, is 5s. a day; the pay of a midshipman, Royal Naval Reserve, is 3s. a day, under two years' seniority, and 4s. after two years' seniority, with messing allowance of 1s. a day in both cases. I may point out that a midshipman, Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, on entry is older than a midshipman in the Royal Naval Reserve.

Does not the difference in pay between the two seem a little unfair? The more experienced man seems to get less pay than the inexperienced.

I am afraid I cannot argue the matter at this juncture, but I will look into it again without giving any undertaking.

Dockyard Workers' Pay

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention has been called to the recent award of the Committee on Production in the arbitration between the federated shipbuilding and federated engineering employers and the trade unions representing the workmen employed by the federated firms; and whether it is the intention of the Admiralty to apply the further war increases of 3s. a week for men and 1s. 6d. a week for boys, youths, and apprentices under eighteen years of age, as embodied in the award, to the workpeople in the Royal dockyards from the same date as it is to apply in the private shipbuilding and engineering firms, namely, the 1st August?

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty (1) whether he will give the number of petty officers and men who, since the outbreak of war to the 30th June last, have completed twenty-two years' service and are thereby entitled to pensions varying from £18 to £60 per annum; whether he will say on what ground these pensions have been withheld and in lieu thereof the men given 2d. a day; whether men who have completed twenty-two years' service before 2nd August, 1914, are given their pensions as well as their pay; if not, will he say on what principle of equity the Admiralty justify the breaking of a contract in this way; will he give the matter reconsideration so that petty officers and men who have completed twenty-two years' service, whether before or after the outbreak of war, may be placed on the same footing as regards pay and pensions; (2) whether he is aware that irritation exists in the Navy with regard to the continued entry of civilians in ranks and higher ratings for which they have no special qualification, the classes referred to being sub-lieutenants and lieutenants in the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, wireless telegraphists as chief petty officers and warrant officers, physical training instructors as chief petty officers Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, auxiliary sick-berth reserve ratings entered in higher ratings and paid at higher rates in all ratings than active service men, assistant paymasters Royal Naval Reserve and Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, and police constables as ships' corporals, without giving opportunities to active service men to serve in these positions when vacancies Occur; and that it often happens that petty officers, in addition to serving under: civilians, are called upon to instruct and train them in their duties; will he undertake to see that these disabilities are removed, seeing that they mitigate against the efficiency of the Navy and are detrimental to the legitimate aims and aspirations of lower-deck ratings; (3) whether he is aware of the hardships arising in many cases owing to the system of hospital stoppages in the Royal Navy; will he state on what ground the Admiralty justify deductions of 45 per cent. to 60 per cent. from the pay of men and boys in the Royal Navy if kept in a home hospital for treatment of disease, unless possessing what is known as a hurt certificate, for a period of sixty days, and if remaining over ninety days stopping their pay altogether; is it realised by the Admiralty that if a man without a hurt certificate remains in hospital for over ninety days, supposing that man to be married, his wife and family have to subsist on half his pay, and if he remains over the ninety days the entire means of livelihood for himself and his family are taken away; (4) whether he is aware that, in order to obtain men for the Navy, among the advantages set out is that medical attendance and medicine are given free of charge, that treatment in naval hospital is allowed, full pay being allowed for three months with a reduction after the first seventy days, unless previously invalided from the Service; that this promise is a myth, seeing that in cases of ordinary disease and serious illness not directly attributable to service, although possibly contracted in the Service, after thirty days in hospital deductions are made, and after ninety days pay ceases; what action will be taken to ensure the promised advantages being given; (5) whether, in the matter of hospital stoppages, aggravation by service is taken into account; if not, will he press this reform with a view of at any rate placing these stoppages on an equality with eligibility for pensions under the new Warrant; and (6) whether he is aware that the present system of hospital stoppages acts not only injuriously to the men themselves, but places the medical authorities in a difficult position, seeing that cases of incipient tuberculosis, appendicitis, hernia, etc., often brought on or aggravated by expo- sure while on service, are seldom cured in thirty days, consequently to avoid deductions a man often begs to be sent out of hospital, and the medical officer, sympathising with him and knowing what deductions in pay mean to his family, frequently allows him out before he is really fit, thus it happens that these stoppages act prejudicially to the man himself as well as to the efficiency of the Navy; and will he take these matters into consideration when reconsidering the question?

These questions deal with detained pay to men detained for service during the War period, with the direct entry during hostilities of civilians to higher ratings and ranks, and with hospital stoppages. It would, I think, be more satisfactory if they were dealt with in the Debate which I understand will immediately follow on the Motion for the Third Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill.

War Cabinet

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that the War Cabinet is becoming more and more remote from the House of Commons, he will make arrangements, even if involving legislation, whereby it will be possible for all members of the War Cabinet and also Secretaries of State who may have seats in the House of Lords to answer questions from time to time in this House and also to address this House periodically either in open or in Secret Session?

As these members of the Cabinet do not come here we are forced to judge them by results. Is not that prejudicial to their reputation?

Industrial Unrest (Commissioners of Inquiry)

asked the Prime Minister whether the Report of the Commissioners of Inquiry into Industrial Unrest has been received; and whether it will be published at once for the general public?

I have been asked to answer this question. The Reports have, as already stated, been received and are now in the Press. It is hoped that copies will be placed on sale in the course of the next few days.

Questions

Prisoners of War

asked the Home Secretary if he will take steps to investigate the wholesale complaints of the insufficiency of the food allowed to prisoners of war in Alexandra Palace, and also the allegations of the poor quality of the food; and will he say if prisoners are not allowed to receive food from friends outside?

I am informed that nothing is known of any wholesale complaints as to the insufficiency or poor quality of the food issued to the interned civilian prisoners of war at Alexandra Palace. Prisoners are allowed to receive food from friends outside in the United Kingdom, but such food must not contain meat, sugar, or flour in any form. There is no restriction in any way as regards receipt of parcels from overseas.

asked the hon. Member for Sheffield (Central Division) if he can state whether Turkey has yet consented to allow representatives of the Geneva Red Cross to visit and, if so, which prisoners' camps in Turkey; when the representatives will start; what are their names; and how soon does he expect that their Report will be received?

I regret to state that the International Committee of the Red Cross Society at Geneva have not yet secured permission to visit camps in Turkey where British prisoners of war are interned.

asked the hon. Member for Sheffield (Central Division) the names of those who constitute the International Red Cross Committee in Constantinople; who is now the chairman; and what is the method adopted to ensure that the money and clothes distributed by the committee to British, Colonial, and Indian prisoners in Turkey in fact reach the prisoners' hands?

There is no International Red Cross Committee at Constantinople. I presume that what my hon. Friend has in mind is the Ottoman Red Crescent Society. The fullest account possessed by His Majesty's Government of this body and of its present activities is contained in the report of the Swiss Red. Cross delegates on their visit to Turkey, copies of which may be obtained from the British Red Cross Society.

Summer Recess

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the progress made with the Finance and other Bills, and especially with the Corn Production Bill, and also in view of the general spirit of accommodation shown by the House, he will consider the possibility of disposing of all outstanding emergent Parliamentary business by the middle of August next so as to enable the Ministers, as far as possible, and Members of Parliament generally, to obtain a reasonable degree of rest and recreation before encountering the burdens of the Autumn Session?

I need not say that I share the hope expressed in my hon. Friend's question that the date of the adjournment should be hastened as much as possible, and that the Government will do their best to expedite it.

asked on what date it is expected this House will rise for the Autumn Recess, and what work it is intended the Government will insist on this House accomplishing before that day?

Defence of the Realm Act

Newspaper Comments

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to articles in a London financial paper to the effect that a man of very high position in this country has been for three years systematically playing the traitor; and, if so, will he take action under the Defence of the Realm Act to summon the editor of such paper before the military authorities so that he may put his information at their service, in view of the fact that such action was satisfactorily taken in a Scottish case where similar statements had been made by a man holding the responsible positions of county councillor and justice of the peace?

If the hon. Member will give me details of the specific case to which he refers I shall have inquiry made.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that it is an open secret that the "Financial News," rightly or wrongly, three or four days a week, has articles of the most extraordinary character which, if true, ought to have been answered long ago, and, if false, ought to have been proved false?

It may be an open secret, but it is the first time I have heard of it. If the hon. Gentleman will give me dates, I will look into it.

Are we to understand that the right hon. Gentleman requires someone to read the papers for him, and that nobody has told him about this?

I read a great many papers, but the "Financial News" is not one of them.

Questions

Liquor Traffic (State Purchase)

asked the Prime Minister (1) whether the Memorandum on the purchase of the liquor traffic by the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) was originally drawn up and agreed to without any intention of its being published but only for the guidance of the Cabinet; whether subsequently the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) were consulted as to its publication; whether eventually the Memorandum was published without the Board's knowledge and consent; (2) in view of the experience gained and lapse of time passed since the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) agreed on its Memorandum on the purchase of the liquor traffic he will again refer the Memorandum to the Board with a request that it may be either confirmed or corrected in the light of recent developments?

I understand that in drawing up this Memorandum the Board had clearly in mind the possibility that the Government might desire to publish it. The decision to publish was taken by the Government on their own discretion. I do not think it necessary to refer the matter back to the Board at the present time.

Is it not a fact that the Board were asked if they were willing for the Memorandum to be published, and they decline to give that promise, and yet in spite of that refusal of the Board the Prime Minister published it?

I believe that is not a fact, and that they were not expressly asked.

Did the Cabinet ask the Board of Control to draw up a Memorandum on State purchase?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden) is a member of this Board and can speak with first-hand knowledge, of which the right hon. Gentleman cannot?

If he says it was put to the Board and they declined, we ought to be aware of it. I was not aware of it, but I will make inquiries.

Shipping Losses (Weekly Returns)

asked the Prime Minister whether he will have the weekly returns of shipping lost through the action of submarines so amended as to show the number of ships entering and leaving British ports from or to places abroad, excluding cross-channel traffic, and also the total tonnage of the ships sunk?

I can only refer the hon. Member to previous replies on this question.

Excess Profits Duty (Criminal Offences)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to a current Treasury prosecution for fraudulent evasion of Income Tax and Excess Profits Duty involving alleged loss to other taxpayers of tens of thousands of pounds; whether he can give, with or without disclosing names, any particulars of the number of firms and the amount of money involved in such prosecutions of this kind as the Treasury has authorised since the Excess Profits Duty was established; what is the maximum penalty which has been enforced in any one of these cases; and whether the penalties provided by law for fraudulent evasion of Excess Profits Duty include imprisonment without the option of a fine or any alternative money payment?

Proceedings in the type of case which my hon. Friend appears to have in mind were not taken under any provisions of the Revenue Code, but were criminal proceedings instituted at the instance of the Board of Inland Revenue for offences such as perjury, conspiracy, etc., committed with a view to defraud the Crown. The sentences inflicted for criminal offences committed in connection with Excess Profits Duty have ranged up to twelve months' imprisonment; but I may remind my hon. Friend that the liability to assessment of these offenders is not affected by the conviction on the criminal charge.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think that he has got all the criminals involved in this question?

I am not sure, but the Board of Inland Revenue have got as many as they could.

Naval Cases in Hospitals (Stoppage of Pay)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what stoppages in pay, if any, are made in the cases of naval officers sent to hospital for ordinary sickness or disease; and, if none are made, will he explain why a similar course is not pursued in the case of the men of the lower deck, more especially seeing that Army men's pay in similar circumstances is not stopped?

The full pay of naval officers sent to hospital in ordinary cases ceases after the lapse of forty-two days or supersession in appointment, unless specially extended up to a maxi- mum of ninety-one days. The latter half of the question does not, therefore, arise, but in any case the reference to Army practice is not correct.

Loss of Steamship "Mongolia."

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty if he has any information to give the House in regard to the mine which sunk the Peninsular and Oriental liner "Mongolia"; whether the mine was laid by a neutral steamer; if so, whether the steamer has been caught; and how many mines did she have on board?

The "Mongolia" was sunk at noon on the 24th June last, near Bombay, by a mine which is believed to have formed part of a minefield laid by the German raider "Wolf." It is not considered that the mine was laid by a neutral steamer, and the last two parts of the question do not therefore arise.

Secondary Technical Schools (Teachers' Salaries)

asked the President of the Board of Education the composition of the Departmental Committee appointed to inquire into the status and salaries of teachers and the terms of reference to the Committee?

I presume that the hon. Member refers to the Committee which I propose to set up to inquire into the principles which should determine the fixing of salaries for teachers in secondary and technical schools, schools of art, training colleges, and other public institutions for higher education (other than university institutions), due regard being had to such differentiation in respect to locality, duties, qualifications, sex, and other relevant considerations as is consistent with or necessary for the organisation of the teaching service throughout the country on a system conducive to the efficiency of national education. The Committee will be at liberty to illustrate any system which they recommend by such specific sums of money as they think fit; but they are not asked to consider the question of the amounts by which existing salaries should be improved in particular areas or schools, or the scources from which the amounts required for that purpose should be provided. The constitution of this Committee has not yet been settled.

If the right hon. Gentleman cannot tell us the constitution of the Committee, am I right in supposing that the teachers are to have some representation on the Committee?

The case of the uncertificated teachers does not arise. This is a Committee dealing with secondary education and higher forms of education.

Game Bird Shooting (Scotland)

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether it is proposed to issue an Order under the Defence of the Realm Acts authorising the shooting of grouse and blackgame from the beginning of the month of August onwards, having regard to the addition to the national food supply which may be obtained from this source and to the difficulty in securing these game birds later on in the season?

In view of the shortage of sporting ammunition which accentuates the difficulty of preventing injury to crops at a later period of the year, I am prepared to consider an Order accelerating the opening of the grouse and blackgame season. Having regard, however, to the opposition with which a similar proposal was met in this House in 1915, I should welcome any expression of views from those interested within the next day or two.

Award Committee (Post Office)

asked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to the statement of the Chairman of the Award Committee that the amount of the award of the Committee has been misinterpreted by the Postmaster-General; is he aware that the award has been paid up in full to one section, but not to all; and whether, under these circumstances, he is prepared to receive a deputation of the temporary postal employés for the purpose of having their case heard and this matter settled?

The Chairman of the Board informs me that no such statement has been made by him. If any doubt arises as to the interpretation of the award, the matter should, under Clause (8) be referred to the Board for decision.

Irish Rebellion (Compensation Claims)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland why the claim of Mr. Edward O'Neill, of 34, Eden Quay, Dublin, of £318 14s. for damage done to his premises by the military authorities cannot be entertained, having regard to the fact that he has already been paid by the Property Losses Committee a sum of £205 for stock taken away and furniture injured by the military authorities, when the authorities were satisfied by the Dublin Metropolitan Police that the said Edward O'Neill had no connection whatever with the parties concerned in the insurrection of Easter week; and if it is on the ground of the Transport Workers' Union being the ground landlord of O'Neill's premises that the claim is rejected?

I am making inquiries as to this matter.

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland when it is expected that the awards will be made in the Rebellion victims' cases which are now in the hands of the Treasury for consideration; if he is aware that many of the dependants of the persons killed have have been for the past fifteen months in a destitute condition and dependent on friends or charitable funds for their subsistence; and if he will see that the awards are issued at the earliest possible moment?

Prison Warders (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he will state how the 8d. per day working pay now payable to trades warders in the Irish prisons service in substitution of their old pensionable allowance of £10 per annum will in the year amount to over £12, seeing that trades warders do not work, and consequently are not paid working pay for, the fifty-two Sundays, eleven prison holidays, and twelve days' annual leave each year; if the amount will be really less by 6s. 8d. per annum than the old allowance of £10; will he say how he arrives at the sum of £6 per annum in the case of trades warders hitherto in receipt of £5 per annum but now receiving working pay at the rate of 4d. per day, seeing that, in their case also, he must deduct in Sundays, holidays, and annual leave seventy-five days from the year; if the annual rate of working pay in their case will be 3s. 4d. less than their old allowance of £5; why are the old allowances of £20, £15, and £10 pensionable and counting for salary in the case of warders occupying special posts who were promoted to Class II., while in the case of Class III. warders, holding similar posts, such allowances are entirely forfeited both as regards salary and pension; why in some prisons trades warders are, when detailed for Saturday evening duty, precluded from earning working pay on that day also; and if he will give the name of the official directly responsible for supplying him with the information on which the figures given above were based?

I am unable to add anything to the full reply I gave on the 12th July to the hon. Member for the Leix Division of Queen's County.

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that a number of the Irish prison officers male staff are not allowed every alternate Sunday off as they are in England; and whether he will take action to see that the Irish prison officers are allowed the same concessions as those in England?

The principle of granting alternate Sundays off duty or, when that is impracticable, a day in lieu thereof during the following fortnight has been adopted in the Irish prison service, and all possible means are taken to see that the officers get the advantage of it.

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that under the new system of pay in Irish prisons a second-class chief warder's pay is only equivalent to a third-class chief warder's pay in England; and whether he will take steps to remedy this grievance?

There are only two classes of chief warders in the Irish prison service. The junior class in each service receive equivalent rates of pay.

Arming and Drilling (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is satisfied that the measures the Government have taken under the Defence of the Realm Act to prevent the arming, drilling, and organising of bodies of men for an avowed seditious purpose have proved effectual; and, if not, will he say what further steps will be taken to end this menace to the loyal inhabitants of the country?

The Government have taken, and will continue to take, the measures they deem necessary for the public safety in Ireland. I think it would not be in the public interest for me to discuss these measures by way of question and answer.

Disturbance in Sligo

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he has received a report of the assault and beating of a soldier by an organised body of men armed with hurleys on the occasion of the presentation of the freedom of the town of Sligo to Madame Marckiewicz by the Mayor on the 23rd instant in recognition of her efforts for the independence of Ireland during the late rebellion; and what efforts are taken to warn men of the forces of the Crown that the authorities can no longer be responsible for their safety?

I am informed that no soldier was assaulted by an organised body of men, that there was no body of men armed with hurleys, and that hurleys were not carried by the crowd. A soldier who announced his intention to disperse the meeting, and was struck with a stick, was protected by the police.

Training Reserves (Leave)

asked whether the lads who join the Training Reserves on attaining the age of eighteen are entitled to four days' leave when they complete twelve weeks' service, and, if so, why the lads belonging to the 17th Training Reserve battalion, stationed at Ray Farm Camp, Parkeston, near Harwich, have not had their leave?

My right hon. Friend does not state the condition as to the grant of leave quite correctly. It is three months' training and not three months' service which is necessary. Eighty per cent. of the battalion to which he refers began training on 20th April, but the training has been interrupted by moves, and leave is not yet quite due. Twenty per cent. of the battalion joined the unit in the middle of June. These were entitled to leave, but this was withheld as a matter of discipline as a considerable number absented themselves to London, and their conduct was not up to the general standard. Leave in batches has now been arranged for and will be given from this week onwards.

Royal Army Medical Corps

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the dissatisfaction felt by the temporary commissioned officers of the Royal Army Medical Corps with the new form of contract for an indefinite term of service which they are now being asked to sign; whether, owing to such dissatisfaction, temporary commissioned officers have declined to continue their services under the new form of contract; and whether steps have been or will be taken to remove the grievance?

Renewal for the period of the present emergency applies only to those medical men who come under the provisions of the Military Ser- vice Act, and the terms of the contracts only bring them under the same conditions of service as other civilians who are liable under this Act.

Voluntary Aid Detachment Nurses

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he has been able yet to issue instructions that Voluntary Aid Detachment nurses and workers may now obtain concession travelling warrants to enable them to travel on a return journey for a. single fare, i.e., at half the cost of prewar fares; if he is aware that this privilege is already enjoyed by all officers and by the nurses of the Canadian Expeditionary Force; and if he will now extend this practice to the Voluntary Aid Detachment nurses?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given on the 13th instant to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Chertsey, to which I can add nothing at present. Officers and nurses of the Canadian Expeditionary Force are on the same footing as regards travelling concessions as those of the Imperial Forces.

Great Central Hotel (Convalescent Home)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War why, when the Great Central Hotel, Marylebone, ceased to be a hotel and became a convalescent home for British officers, the services of Mr. Frick, a Swiss, formerly manager of the hotel, were retained; whether, now that the hotel has become a British military hospital, his services are still retained and for what purpose, in what capacity, at what salary, and to whom is he responsible; why, when the hotel became a convalescent home, was not a British-born subject selected to perform Mr. Frick's duties; and are any other neutrals, and how many, now employed at the said military hospital, or any naturalised Germans or Austrians or enemy aliens, and how many?

Mr. Frick, a Swiss citizen of Swiss descent for many generations, was retained, because it was felt that no one else could be found possessing the same intimate knowledge of the hotel and its personnel, of which the greater part were retained. It was considered that his services would contribute to the comfort of the patients and the advantage of the public service. He has given the greatest satisfaction, and has saved a large sum of money on the catering. His salary is £700 for the joint services of himself and his wife; he is responsible to the officer in charge of the hospital. There are no naturalised Germans or Austrians nor enemy aliens employed. There are sixteen other neutrals in addition to Mr. Frick employed in the hospital.

Considering that this is a British military hospital, and that it is well known officers talk with each other, and leave their letters and papers about the room, was it not possible and advisable that a British subject and not a neutral should have been employed, and certainly not sixteen other neutrals?

Wounded Soldiers (Gold Stripes)

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether soldiers or others who may be entitled to wear the gold stripe on the left arm indicating that they were wounded while serving their country are entitled to wear this distinguishing stripe if the wound they have sustained is caused by the firing of our own anti-aircraft guns?

The distinction is authorised for officers and soldiers who have been wounded by the enemy. Accidental wounds do not qualify for it.

DALZIEL asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the feeling of dissatisfaction which exists among men who have been invalided home through illness contracted overseas on the ground that they have no Outward symbol, such as the gold stripe worn by soldiers, to show they have been wounded on active service; and whether he will take steps to bring into the same category as honourable wounds those who are suffering or have suffered from disease and sickness?

The gold stripe is only authorised for wounded soldiers, and I regret that it is impracticable to extend it to soldiers invalided home on account of sickness. I may say, however, that a distinctive badge is at present under consideration for all soldiers who have served for a fixed period in any of the several theatres of war.

Air Services

Royal Flying Corps (Casualties)

BILLING asked the Undersecretary of State for War what are the total losses of killed, wounded, and missing among the Royal Flying Corps during the month ended the 21st July; and what were the total losses during the previous month?

These figures cannot be stated in public, but, as I have told hon. Members before, if any individual Member of the House cares to go to the War Office he will be shown the figures.

Range Finders

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, at a certain northern anti-aircraft base, where there are twelve French 75 anti-aircraft guns, they have no range-finder of any description whatsoever; whether, even in cases where range-finders are provided, the instruments measure yards, whereas both the range dial of the gun and the fuse punch register are in metres; whether the officers or men responsible are qualified to transform metres to yards, or vice versâ, with rapidity; or whether this is is any way responsible for the failure of our guns in recent raids?

It was not in the public interest that this question should have been put, and I cannot give any answer to it.

Questions

Metropolitan Police

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department to say what was the average weekly pay of each grade of the police force in June, 1914, and June, 1917; and what were the numbers of men in each grade in those months?

If the hon. Member will put down an unstarred question, I will endeavour to have the figures worked out.

Paris Conference (Mr. Ramsay Macdonald)

( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister whether the statement contained in the newspapers of yesterday is correct, to the effect that the hon. Member for Leicester has accompanied the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle to Paris; and, if so, whether the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle, as a member of the War Cabinet, is visiting Paris on behalf of the Government, and whether the hon. Member for Leicester has gone, as a member of his party, with the sanction of the Government, and, if so, for what purpose?

As I understand the executive of the Labour party selected three of their members, my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnard Castle, my hon. Friend the Leader of the Labour party, and the hon. Member for Leicester to visit Paris and discuss the situation with the representatives of the French and Russian Labour parties. The arrangements for this visit were settled without the knowledge of the Government and my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnard Castle is attending only in his capacity as secretary of the Labour party.

Is it a fact that the hon. Member for Leicester was conveyed to France on one of His Majesty's ships?

I believe not. I believe the hon. Member for Leicester went in the ordinary way, and the only way in which the Government would have interfered, so far as I know, would have been by refusing passports.

Are we to understand that the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle, who is a Member of the War Cabinet, has done this thing, or arranged it without intimating to his colleagues of the War Cabinet what was happening?

The House knows quite well that since the hon. Member for Barnard Castle became a member of the previous Government he continued his association with the Labour party. There is nothing new, so far as I know, in his acting for them.

Is there nothing new in a member of the War Cabinet concealing from his colleagues information which they ought to have?

No; he did not conceal it. We knew of it, but only after everything had been settled.

Are we to understand that the Government took no steps to prevent the hon. Member for Leicester from going?

The arrangements were settled by the executive of the Labour party without our knowledge. So far as I know, the only means by which we could have interfered would have been to refuse passports to the three delegates selected by the executive of the Labour party.

Is it not a fact that the four delegates from the Workmen's and Soldiers' Council in Russia asked that the hon. Member for Leicester should accompany them, and would it not have created a most unfavourable impression in Russia if he had been prevented from going?

I do not know as to that. I have not had much time to ascertain the facts. All that I know is that these three gentlemen were selected by the executive of the Labour party.

May I ask whether the fact that a member of the Government has made arrangements, unknown to his colleagues, is a reason for his colleagues not interfering with his subsequent action?

I did not say that. So far as I know, our only means of interfering would have been by refusing passports. That we did not do.

Can the right hon. Gentleman explain the extraordinary way in which the issue of the passports has been accelerated?

Sunday Observance Act

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the administration of the Sunday Observance Act, 1677; and whether he will take steps to bring about the repeal of this measure?

I would refer the hon. Baronet to the replies given to the question of the hon. Member for the Houghton-le-Spring Division on the 21st May and to previous questions in regard to Sunday trading. The subject is a very controversial one, and it would be impossible to undertake legislation dealing with it at the present time.

Trade Union Returns

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to the case of a trade union whose last twenty-eight quarterly returns were found by the Registrar-General of Friendly Societies to have been misstated; and whether the auditor responsible for the erroneous statements was employed by the trade union in question in reliance upon Regulations laid down by the Treasury or entirely upon its own responsibility without Government guidance?

In this case an auditor appointed to audit the annual return for 1915, in investigating one item which appeared in the accounts, found it necessary to make adjustments in the quarterly balance sheets for the preceding fourteen years. These balance sheets had been audited by various other auditors. All these auditors were appointed by the union under its rules, which, by the Trade Union Act, 1871, must contain a provision for an annual or periodical audit of accounts. There are no Treasury Regulations or other statutory provisions on the matter.

Friendly Societies (Strictures upon Auditors)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to the Report of the Registrar-General for Friendly Societies for 1916 and to the strictures it contains upon certain of the auditors of societies; whether one auditor signed a docket by mark as he was unable to write; whether this incapacity resulted from illiteracy or illness; whether another auditor signed blank forms and left an official to fill in figures, with the result that irregularities and loss ensued; whether these auditors held their appointments under Regulations prescribed by Act of Parliament and by the Treasury in order to secure efficiency; if so, whether he will consider the desirability of revising the existing Regulations or of securing their more careful administration; and whether auditors approved in much the same way as those above-mentioned are eligible for employment in connection with approved societies and other public bodies?

An auditor signe the return of a branch of a friendly society by mark. The Chief Registrar has no definite information, but opines that this method of signature was due to illiteracy. In another case the Chief Registrar received a complaint that it had been the practice of an auditor to sign a blank form of return and to leave the figures to be afterwards filled in by the secretary, but the Chief Registrar is unable to say definitely that the losses incurred by the society were due to this practice. The former of these auditors was appointed by the branch under its rules in accordance with Section 26 of the Friendly Societies Act, 1896, and the latter under the rules of the society, which is a society certified under the Loan Societies Act, 1840. In neither case was the auditor appointed under Treasury or other Regulations. The annual returns are scrutinised by the Registry of Friendly Societies, so far as the staff is available for the purpose. The funds of approved societies under the National Insurance Act, 1911, are audited by auditors appointed by the Treasury under Section 35 (1) ( a ) of the Act.

School Grants

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that forms for application by schools for mothers for Grants earned during the year ending 31st March, 1917, have not yet been issued by the Board; if he will state why there is this delay in issuing the forms; and, seeing that inconvenience is caused to these institutions in consequence of the period during which they have to wait for their Grants, will he take steps to expedite the issue of the requisite forms?

Bill Presented

FISHERY HARBOURS (CONTINUANCE OF POWERS) BILL,—"to revive and continue temporarily the power of making Orders under the Fishery Harbours Act, 1915," presented by Sir RICHARD WINFREY; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 64.]

Orders of the Day

Business of the House

With regard to the business on the Paper, may I ask the Leader of the House whether it is proposed to take the Committee stage of the New Ministries Bill, having regard to the fact that there has been no time to put down Amendments?

I hope the House will be able to take, in addition to the Consolidated Fund (No. 4) Bill, the next two Orders on the Paper (New Ministries Bill and Committee of Resolution as to Salaries and Remuneration). The House understands as well as I do that if we are to get away at a reasonable time, we must get on with the business which has to be carried through.

Is it proposed to go beyond the Committee stage of the New Ministries Bill?

May I ask if there is any method by which this House can express its appreciation of the action taken by certain persons on Saturday last by breaking up the pacifist meetings?

"Free England!"

Motion made, and Question put, "That the proceedings on the New Ministries Bill, if under discussion at Eleven of the Clock this night, be not interrupted under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ Mr. Bonar Law. ]

The House divided: Ayes, 119; Noes, 31.

Division No. 81.]

AYES.

[3.43 p.m.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Greig, Colonel J. W.

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Amery, L. C. M. S.

Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

Partington, Hon. Oswald

Baldwin, Stanley

Gulland, Rt. Hon. John William

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike(Darlingt'n)

Banner, Sir John S. Harmood-

Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

Peto, Basil Edward

Barnes, Rt. Hon. George N.

Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

Philipps, Captain Sir Owen (Chester).

Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick Burghs)

Haslam, Lewis

Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

Beach, William F. H.

Hayward, Evan

Rea, Walter Russell

Beale, Sir William Phipson

Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Beauchamp, Sir Edward

Hewart, Sir Gordon

Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Beck, Arthur Cecil

Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

Robertson, Rt. Hon. John M.

Bennett-Goldney, Francis

Holmes, Daniel Turner

Robinson, Sidney

Bird, Alfred

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Rowlands, James

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Hughes, Spencer Leigh

Samuels, Arthur W.

Blake, Sir Francis Douglas

Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry (Norwood)

Bliss, Joseph

Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

Kellaway, Frederick George

Sanders, Col. Robert Arthur

Brunner, John F. L.

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Shaw, Hon. A.

Bryce, J. Annan

Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

Shortt, Edward

Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George

Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert

Smith, Sir Swire (Keighley, Yorks)

Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon)

Lindsay, William Arthur

Stirling, Lieut.-Col. Archibald

Cochrane, Cecil Algernon

Lloyd, George Ambrose (Stafford, W.)

Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

Colvin, Col. Richard Beale

Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury)

Sykes, Sir Mark (Hull, Central)

Craig, Colonel James (Down, E.)

Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

Talbot, Lord Edmund

Crooks, Rt. Hon. William

M'Callum, Sir John M.

Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)

Dalrymple, Hon. H. H.

Macdonald, Rt. Hon. J. M. (Falk. B'ghs)

Thorne, William (West Ham)

Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. (Kirkcaldy)

Macmaster, Donald

Tickler, T. G.

Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)

McMicking, Major Gilbert

Turton, Edmund Russborough

Davies. Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

Walker, Colonel William Hall

Doris, William

Macpherson, James Ian

Walton, Sir Joseph

Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir J. B.

Maden, Sir John Henry

Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

Duke. Rt. Hon. Henry Edward

Magnus, Sir Philip

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Malcolm, Ian

Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth)

Duncannon, Viscount

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred

Wiles, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

Morgan, George Hay

Williams, Col. Sir Robert (Dorset, W.)

Fell, Arthur

Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness)

Winfrey, Sir Richard

Fisher, Rt. Hon. H. A. L. (Hallam)

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Wing, Thomas Edward

Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes (Fulham)

Murray, Major Hon. Arthur C

Yate, Colonel Charles Edward

Fleming, Sir John

Newman, John R. P.

Yeo, Alfred William

Galbraith, Samuel

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Gibbs, Col. George Abraham

Nolan, Joseph

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

Greenwood, Sir G. G. (Peterborough)

O'Grady, James

J. Hope and Mr. Parker.

NOES.

Arnold, Sydney

Boland, John Pius

Byles, Sir William Pollard

Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

Burn, Colonel C. R.

Crumley, Patrick

Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H.

Dillon, John

Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton)

Gilbert, J. D.

Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Smyth, Thomas (Leitrim, S.)

Hackett, John

Lynch, Arthur Alfred

Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

Henderson, John M. (Aberdeen, W.)

Molloy, Michael

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Holt, Richard Durning

Moltene, Percy Alpert

Whitty, Patrick Joseph

Jowett, Frederick William

Morrell, Philip

Joyce, Michael

O'Malley, William

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

Kilbride, Denis

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

Hogge and Mr. Pringle

King, Joseph

Consolidated Fund (No. 4) Bill

Order for Third Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."

I should like on the occasion of the Third Reading to revert to some of the questions I raised in connection with Navy Administration at the Easter Recess. The question as to the treatment of the men of the lower deck is one which has engaged the attention of a large number of Members of this House from time to time. At this period of the year there usually is the issue to the public of a statement by those who are interested in the lower deck which is commonly known as the lower deck charter. Most hon. Members will be familiar with that. If they are not, they might have been made very familiar with it yesterday by a very able article which appeared in one of the London newspapers written by my hon. Friend opposite, the Member for Devonport (Sir C. Kinloch-Cooke) who shows what he has frequently done before, the large number of these grievances. As I made rather a long speech on this subject at Easter, I do not propose to-day to repeat the arguments I used then in favour of better treatment, but I do want to make an appeal to my right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty, to say whether in the interval between the Easter Recess and now the Admiralty have considered this question and are prepared to make any concessions in the matter. The most urgent concession that is required is that which concerns the differences of the pay and pension of able-bodied seamen who are still serving in the Navy, but whose term of service, which enables them to receive a pension, has expired. My right hon. Friend and most Members of the House know the facts sufficiently well to do away with the necessity of me repeating them at any length.

The position briefly is this: Men who had their pension in the Navy and who were drawing that outside the Navy prior to the outbreak of the War were recalled to service. In the service they continued to draw, not only their pay, but the amount of their pension. But those members of the lower deck, whose number of years qualify them for a pension, which period expired since the War broke out, and who were therefore retained in the Navy, do not draw the amount of their pensions in addition to their pay They get instead 2d. a day extra pay added to what they now draw. If these men happen by any accident of war to be killed, their widow and dependants would reap no advantage from any of that pension to which they are entitled by service. They would, of course, obviously get the disability pension for wounds; but as the ordinary pension for service is really an anticipation of pay, neither their wives nor dependants would be entitled to any of that amount. There are 4,000 at least now serving in the Navy with over 22 years' service who are entitled to draw their pension, and who would be drawing it if there were no War. They are provided for just now in a fashion, but I think that the time has arrived when the Admiralty might very well reconsider the position of these men, on whose service they are saving anything from £150,000 and £200,000 per year, and see whether or not they can meet this particular case. There is one point upon which I hope the right hon. Gentleman can satisfy the House. There are other points, I will leave the remainder of the points to hon. Members. There is only this other point which I am particularly interested in at the moment, and that is the question of the continuation of hospital stoppages. These are familiar to the House. Their reason is also familiar to the House. They came into existence because of a particular disease, and because of that every able-bodied sailor in the Service who is sent to hospital is tarred practically with the same brush, because he suffers these hospital stoppages. My right hon. Friend knows the cessation of pay, after so many days in hospital, not only means that the man draws no pay, but that his wife and dependants cease to draw any separation allowance.

Oh, no. There is no pay, but the allowance continues.

Well, if I say is not so, I shall be very glad to know that what the right hon. Gentleman says is correct. But as my right hon. Friend knows in the question of hospital stoppages, after ninety-one days, the pay of the man is entirely stopped.

Very well. In all these certain cases—I see my right hon. Friend has got the same document in his hand as I have—in all these certain cases after the pay is stopped obviously the wife or the dependants do not get the allowance.

No; if I may interrupt my hon. Friend again, there is no pay, no allotment, but the allowance goes on.

There is an arrangement by which the wives and dependants of these men get an allowance, though the allotment of the sailor had ceased?

But my right hon. Friend has just said that it is given in every case. These answers are contradictory, and they exhibit the weakness of the situation. We shall be glad to know from my right hon. Friend what he means by his explanation. What I want to get at is that these men do suffer these hospital stoppages. They are more severe as the days lengthen in which they are in hospital. After ninety-one days the allotment ceases; there is no pay; you take the allotment from them.

No. But they no doubt can't make it. Nevertheless, the allowance continues.

Do I understand the position to be then that, in spite of that, the wives and dependants of these able-bodied seamen receive from the Government the maximum allowance they would receive if the men were serving and making an allotment?

They do not get the allotment, but they get the separation allowance.

4.0 P.M.

Well, what we want to know is what happens to the sailor after ninety-one days? Very frequently he may go out of the Service, in which case he would not only lose his job, but his wife and children would lose their separation allowances. I think my right hon. Friend, if he examines that point, will find there is a great deal more in the criticism which is being made than can be met by the explanation he has given just now. Of course, I can quite understand it will be easier to reply to that point in Debate, but I think it requires to be made quite clear what deduction is made from wages and allowances of the men who suffer these hospital stoppages, because I think in any case the feeling of the House certainly is that, apart from any disease which has been acquired by the man through his own fault, for which he himself only is responsible, and which is the only occasion on which the Admiralty is entitled to make any deduction in the way of a hospital stoppage, if a man is in hospital for any disability or disease which is due to service, such as many of them are, it seems to me very shabby to make any deduction at all from that man's pay while he is in hospital. These are two of some half-dozen points or more which are raised by the lower deck. They are two of half a dozen points I raised at much greater length on the Easter Adjournment. I am unwilling to repeat arguments, because my right hon. Friend knows them quite as well as most of us do, and presumably all that is wanted is some emphasis and some pressure upon those points in order to compel the Admiralty to do, what I think they are willing to do, or which, I hope, at any rate, they are willing to do, to meet the demands for men who are serving the country in most difficult circumstances. It can never be right that men who are serving the country in those circumstances should be disaffected at all by the conditions of service. It would be very much better if their grievances could be removed, and if my right hon. Friend, after hearing the case to which this afternoon I have merely given a very short introduction, can see his way to give concessions he will not only be satisfying this House and public opinion outside, but he will be conferring upon the Navy what they deserve, and what they have earned by the patriotic service they have given to their country.

I am sure the House will be very much obliged to the hon. Member for the interesting introduction which he has given to the Debate this afternoon. As he quite generously remarked; it has been my privilege since I have been in the House from 1910 to call the attention of Parliament from time to time to the disabilities under which the men of the lower deck have laboured, and still labour. I think that the House will agree with me that we should like to take this opportunity of thanking the Financial Secretary for the very sympathetic attitude he has adopted to all the suggestions which have been made since I have been in the House. But many disabilities still remain, and I propose to call attention to one or two, and to make an appeal to the new First Lord, through the Financial Secretary tins afternoon, to ask their Lordships of the Admiralty if they can see their way to proceed a little further on the lines of concessions. First, as regards pay. The ordinary sailor still gets his 1s. 3d. a day. The able seaman, provided he has not completed six years of service, still gets his 1s. 8d. Now these payments, with the exception of a 1d. a day, have not been changed since, I think, 1852 or 1853—that is to say, the pay of the able seaman, except as regards the man with six years' service, and the pay of the ordinary sailors have not been raised except by a 1d. during the last seventy years. Now it will be within the recollection of the House that in 1912 I moved an Amendment to the Navy Estimates on this very matter, and, although I failed to carry into the Lobby with me a great number of hon. Members who sit as a rule on the opposite side of the House, six months later the then First Lord announced a rise of 3d. a day to seamen, stokers, and Royal Marines, who had completed six years' service. The petty officer received, I think, 4d extra. So far so good. But a large class of able seamen, and the whole class of boys, did not participate in the rise, and remain exactly at the same rate as their forefathers received in 1852.

I am aware—and I have no doubt that the Financial Secretary will not fail to remind us—that many ratings—tradesmen, for instance—have had their wages considerably raised during the last seven or eight years, but the appeal that I understand my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) to make this afternoon and in which I am supporting him, is on behalf of the seamen class, and I think that, in spite of any special pleading on the part of the Admiralty, however able, however considerate the Financial Secretary may be, it will be impossible to show that the pay of these men does not fall far short of what it ought to be. I shall be told, because I have been told before, that I am not including badge pay and other allowances, but, in my opinion, that is beside the point. For the sake of argument, however, suppose we allow the gunner's pay of 3d. a day, and suppose we say that all these men have gunner's pay, that will give 13s. 5d. a week, and out of that sum the man has to clothe and partly feed himself, and it will be remembered by the House that only the other day the Financial Secretary told us, in reply to a question, that reparation in clothes had to be paid for by the men themselves. Were it not for the separation allowance, I fail to see how the married able seaman of less than six years' service would be able to keep up a home at ail, much less educate his children. I have always contended—and I think the right hon. Gentleman will bear me out—that some effort should be made whereby the married men of the Navy should be given sufficient money to enable them to maintain their homes and their children. This was my contention before the War, and it is my contention now. The position, of course, is somewhat altered by the introduction of separation allowances, for which I pleaded very hard in the days before the War, but these were not given until very late, and even now are not on the same scale as the separation allowances in the Army. But, even with these allowances, my contention is that the pay of the able seaman who has not completed six years of service is not enough for a married man. I propose to suggest to the Financial Secretary what I suggested to the First Lord of the Admiralty in 1912. I propose to ask him to make the six years three years. That is not a very large concession. It would help a great number of men, and it would not be a very great demand upon the public purse.

Recently, as the hon. Member for East Edinburgh has reminded the House, a petition was presented to the Admiralty asking for an increase of 1s. a day to men holding the rating of and above that of leading seamen, 9d. a day to men holding a rating below that of leading seamen, and 6d. a day to boys. I would not myself at this juncture go so far as that, but I can well understand why these sums were asked, because we know that when a similar request was made in 1912 for 25 per cent. rise only 15 per cent. was given. Therefore, I take it, the lower deck will be well satisfied if, instead of getting all they ask, they get a considerable portion of it. As strengthening further this argument, I would remind the House that, I think it was in 1913, I put a question to the then First Lord with regard to the rise in pay which he had given to certain men in 1912 and which came into force in 1913, and I asked him if that were only an instalment. To my first question he did not reply in a manner which was at all useful to me, but on the second occasion he gave me to understand that the rise in pay did not represent the limits of the Admiralty's generosity, or must not be taken to represent the limits of the Admiralty's generosity. Now, while I admit that the generosity of the Admiralty has always been very great, I think the generosity of the Admiralty now ought to be even greater than it has been in the past, owing to the great privations which the men of the Navy are now enduring. This is the time and this is the opportunity to show some practical appreciation of the work done for the people of the country by the men who man our ships of the Navy. I have asked for a very small concession. I should like to see a larger concession granted; but I do hope the Financial Secretary will alter the six years to three.

I pass on to the second point which has been raised by my hon. Friend opposite, namely, hospital stoppages. Now, for these there is no excuse. I think—and I am sure the great number of Members present will agree with me on this point—there is no greater injustice done to the men in the Navy than is done by the continuance of the present system of hospital stoppages. Here we have a number of men and boys below the rank of warrant officer, and these men and boys are sent to a home hospital; but unless they possess what is known as a "hurt certificate," they are not allowed to remain under treatment in that hospital for more than thirty days without suffering very heavy deductions in their pay, and, in the event of then-remaining in the hospital for ninety days—say for ninety-one—their entire pay is cut off, and, in addition to that, the last sixty days are forfeited for purposes of pension and badges.

The Parliamentary Secretary, in answering the point raised by my hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Hogge), spoke about the allowances to the widows being continued. I am not going to question the authority of the Parliamentary Secretary upon that or any other point, but with regard to the point raised that the allowances to the widows were dropped as a necessary consequence of the allotments being dropped, that is a question which the Parliamentary Secretary is in a far better position to answer than I am. I would, however, impress upon him that although the allowances to the women may continue, the very fact that the man's pay stops necessarily limits the funds which are to maintain the wife and children and the home. That in these days is a very great hardship to the man's wife and children, especially if that man, through no fault of his own, is detained in hospital for over 90 days. The deductions are 10d. a day, or 50 per cent. of the man's pay if that pay is not less than 1s. 7d. per day. The able seaman's pay, unless he has completed six years' service, is only 1s. 8d. a day; 8d. a day, or 45 per cent. of the man's pay, if his pay be less than 1s. 3d. a day. The ordinary seaman's 4d. per day, or about 60 per cent. in the case of boys and 7d. a day in the case of Royal Marines. Just for a moment I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to compare these deductions with the statement made in the little book used by all recruiting offices for the purpose of explaining to the men who wish to join the Navy, the advantages they will enjoy when they are in the Navy. I have not the book here, but I think I have the exact words. That part of the book which refers to the question of allowances and hospital accommodation says: "slight." Fancy 50, 45 and 60 per cent. of a man's pay being referred to by the Admiralty as a slight deduction, and even now only as a deduction! There is no Member of this House, if he saw in a book a statement that he would have full pay all the time he was in hospital for three months, and that there would be a deduction after thirty days, who would draw the conclusion from that that the deductions were 45, 50 and 60 per cent., and yet that is the case What is a hurt certificate? It is only granted to a man who has received a wound or hurt in any act of duty while serving either afloat or on shore, or in consequence of extraordinary exposure or exertion in the Service. I need not give my own interpretation of this because the Parliamentary Secretary has given me his interpretation, and he says that the sailor would not be liable to hospital stoppages if wounded in action; if injured in an immediate act of duty; if suffering from disability arising from concussion or shock; if suffering from insanity due to the Service; if under the charge for disease attributable to the Service which leads to invaliding and the award of a disability pension; those are the circumstances under which, if a sailor enters the hospital, he is allowed to remain there for over ninety days without stoppages. It will be seen that all ordinary diseases, cases of fistula, incipient paralysis, appendicitis, hernia, and I might continue the category for a very long period, come within the four corners of the Admiralty Regulation. It is an open secret that cases of this kind are seldom cured within thirty days and sometimes not even in ninety days. Moreover, they are often brought about by exposure when on service. If aggravation is to be considered or taken into account as regards eligibility for pensions under the new Warrant, surely it should be taken into account in the matter of hospital stoppages. I find nothing in the Parliamentary Secretary's reply that leads me to hope that aggravation is taken into account in the least degree. I may be mistaken, and perhaps when the right hon. Gentleman comes to reply he will be able to state that aggravation is a matter which is being taken into account. A direct result of hospital stoppages is that the men knowing their pay is going to be stopped, and the consequent suffering which it brings upon their wives and children, in- sist upon leaving the hospital before they are cured. In some cases which have been brought to my notice they have gone even so far as to risk their own lives, and in many cases they have suffered permanent ill-health by leaving the hospital before they ought to do. As far as the doctors themselves are concerned, they are most reluctant to keep the men over the thirty days in hospital because they know the difficulty in which the men will be placed, and the hardships which will fall upon their families.

Naval efficiency suffers by hospital stoppages, the cause of humanity is outraged, and all you get out of them is a small saving to this country, which, in the last year's Estimates, is given as £8,300. The Parliamentary Secretary has made a point of the fact that it is not everybody who has his pay stopped, there are men whose pay is allowed to continue. I have told the House the class of men whose pay is allowed to continue, and that class is correctly described as men who have a hurt certificate. I will give a quotation from an article which appeared in a weekly paper some two months ago. The writer was an engineer officer who was in great trouble about a chief engine-room artificer who was in hospital. This man had seventeen and a half years' service to his credit, and he had been employed in the North Sea since the outbreak of hostilities. The tremendous strain at last told upon him. There was a general breakdown, and the man was sent to the hospital, where he developed another complaint which necessitated an operation. He was passed into hospital, where he was found to be in a state bordering on collapse. After a time it was found that he was worrying about his pay, part of which had been stopped, as he had exceeded his thirty days in the hospital, and which in a few days would cease altogether.

Inquiries were set on foot, and the only reply given was, "These stoppages are in accordance with the Regulations." No doubt hospital stoppages are necessary in some cases but not in all, but under the present system they are made in every case where the man has not got the hurt certificate. They originated partly because of venereal diseases, and partly because of the fact that men in days gone by were prone to stay in hospital and say they were very ill, and upon their wives and children, insist upon leaving the hospital before they happen. That, however, is not possible now, and with medical science advanced as it is, with the improvement in nursing, with the knowledge of people increasing day by day, people visiting the hospitals, and doctors visiting the men sometimes twice and three times a day, it is not possible for malingering to go on as it did in the old days in the Navy, therefore there was no need on that ground to continue hospital stoppages. As regards venereal disease, that might easily and well be met, and it is not fair to meet that case by penalising the whole sinning, as is done at the present moment. I want to quote again from this little book, which gives the advantages to be obtained by boys and men joining the Navy. It is stated there that the King's Regulations say:

I have a great number of letters from wives of men in my own Constituency, and I have no doubt that other hon. Members have received similar correspondence asking for an appeal to be made to the Admiralty to place them on the same footing as the wives of men who completed their time for the pension before the War began, and I beg to appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty this-afternoon to give very careful consideration to this point. It is but a small thing. There are only 4,000 of these men, and the amount involved is only £150,000. Why should the Admiralty put that sum in their pockets at the expense of the wives and children of men who are risking their lives to save this country from invasion? The long service pension is 10d. per day, it requires amending. On the 1st January, 1885, the period of twenty years was increased to twenty-two years, but a man gets no more pension for the extra two-years. His maximum pension is only 1s. 2d. per day, including allowances for service badges, character, and medals. If he has served two more years—of course during this War many men will serve a great deal more than two years; some, indeed, as many as four, five, and six years—he cannot get any more than 1s. 2d.

I agree, except for petty time. I should like to support the suggestion which was brought to the notice of the Admiralty by a petition recently presented that ½d. per day for each year of service should be the basis of the pension. A man with twenty-two years' service would then get 11d. a day and ½d. extra for each year he has served. I should like to see that continued for the number of years during which the man has been employed in the War, so that if he completes twenty-seven years of service he shall have a pension of ½d. per day for each year of service. That would be a fair and honest way of settling the question. Of course, he would also receive allowances for badges, character, medals, etc. There is one more matter which I have frequently brought to the notice of the right hon. Gentleman during the progress of the War, and it is the continual entry of civilians into the ranks of the higher ratings in the Navy. These men have no qualification whatever for the positions in which they find themselves placed, whereas the petty officer ranks are full of men in every way fitted to rise to the higher ratings and even to commissioned ranks, but they are handicapped by this continuol entry of civilians which is made direct by the Admiralty. I have very often mentioned one particular class. It is the case of the assistant paymasters both in the Royal Naval Reserve and the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve. During the War we have had hundreds of assistant paymasters brought in from outside, whereas there are men in the Navy who are able, willing, and ready, and have been brought up and trained to do the work, but who are refused promotion on the ground that the position must be given to a civilian. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to consider that point. I have here a further list of positions which are now being filled by civilians, and which should be filled by naval men. These positions include sub-lieutenants and lieutenants of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, wireless telegraph operators as chief petty officers and warrant officers, physical training instructors, auxiliary sick berth Reserve ratings entered in higher ratings, and paid at higher rates of pay than active service men, assistant paymasters to which I have already alluded, police-constables and ship eorporals.

There is one other matter which I feel I must take this opportunity of bringing to the notice of the Admiralty, and that is the case of the dockyard pensioners, and especially those whose pensions range from 10s. to £1. The hon. Member sitting below the Gangway on the opposite side (Mr. C. Duncan) knows-very well the class of men to whom I allude. We all know that these men in their time have done good work. They are the men who have helped to build the ships which are now defending this country from invasion. When their pensions were given them the War was not thought of, and war never entered into the minds of the Treasury when they decided that the pensions should range from 10s. to 20s. Owing to the rise in prices of the necessaries of life, several of these men are now placed in a very awkward position. In some cases they have wives and in others they have invalids dependent upon them. It will perhaps astonish the House to hear, but I can vouch for it, that several of these men are at the present moment on the verge of starvation. Only the other day I received a letter from a very important man, an old dockyard pensioner, who knows this class of men very well. He tells me that some of the men have recently died, and in his opinion there is no doubt that their death was due to privation owing to the very small pensions on which they are obliged to subsist. I have no doubt that the right hon. Gentleman will say that if the man is in good health they would be only too glad to take him back into the dockyard. The House would suppose that he would get both his pay and his pension, but directly he gets back into the yard his pension is taken away. Of course, at the age of sixty-five he is not able to do quite the same amount of work as a man of fifty. The man who has been in the Navy and has a pension, if he goes into the dockyard, get both his pay and his pension, and so he should do, but the dockyard pensioner coming back to the yard gets his pay but no pension. Surely the anomaly is too absurd. On the face of it it is ridiculous, and it cannot possibly be sustained. It ought to be impossible that two men, one because he was in the Navy and the other because he was in the dockyard, should be treated financially on an entirely different footing.

I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to put this matter right. It is not a very great thing to ask him to do, and I believe he would be only too pleased to see it done, because the Dockyard men's Committee, of which I have the privilege of being the honorary secretary, not so long ago addressed a letter to the Admiralty on this point, and I think he drafted the reply, which was to the effect that they would do it if they could, but it was entirely a case for the Treasury. They had sent the letter on to the Treasury, and I understood that they had expressed a wish that the Treasury would acquiesce. My knowledge of the Treasury is that they never do anything until they are pushed. You have got to push and to shove the Treasury. Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to shove the Treasury along, because unless some great pressure is brought to bear upon them neither he nor anyone else will get them to raise the pensions of these men. Let us look at the matter from the standpoint of principle. The principle to which I refer is that if it is considered a right and proper thing for a man in the Navy to retain his pension and his pay, then it is a right and proper thing for the dockyard pensioner to retain his pension and his pay. It should not be taken away from him. Finally, I would remind the House that it has already given its sanction to raising the old age pension temporarily by 2s. 6d. in every case. That is a very good move.

My hon. Friend says it is limited. I understood the other day that the Government said it was not, but I will take it that it is limited. At any rate they have admitted that the raising of the old age pension is an absolute necessity in present circumstances. Bonuses are given all round. Bonuses are given by the Government; bonuses are given in the dockyards, as we know, quite rightly and properly. I have taken a prominent part in endeavouring to obtain those bonuses, and I hope they will continue to be received. I am also glad to hear the Financial Secretary's announcement this afternoon of a still further bonus. All that is to the good, and is absolutely necessary. Those who know the work that these men do and the high prices of food at the present day know that there is a necessity for these bonuses, and I know very well that neither the Government nor the Treasury would give bonuses unless they really thought there was absolute necessity to give them. You have given these bonuses in many cases, you have given them now in the case of the old age pensioner, but you refuse to give a bonus to the old dockyard pensioner who is only getting his 10s. and has to keep himself, and probably his wife, out of it. Let me appeal to the Financial Secretary on this point. I ask him please to consider the question of placing the old dockyard pensioner on the same1 footing as the old age pensioner, and give a rise of half-a-crown, say, to all those old age pensioners who are only receiving 10s. or £1 a week. Remember that the 10s. or the £1 is only worth half what it was when it was given them. It is only worth 5s. or 10s., and therefore it is not asking a great deal when I ask you to give half-a-crown. The money which that will represent to the man will only really fee 7s. 6d or 10s., not a very large sum to live upon in these days. Before I sit down I would like to appeal again to the Admiralty to try and see if they cannot give way on these two points. One, the question of allowing the old dockyard pensioner who re-enters the yard to get his pension as well as his pay; the other to give a small bonus of, say, half-a-crown a week to all old dockyard pensioners who are now receiving from the Government 10s. or 20s. a week.

I am not sorry this Debate has arisen, and I take no manner of exception whatever to the tone and the temper of the two speeches to which we have just listened, because I am quite sure that the House and the country are keenly concerned in the treatment accorded to the men of the Fleet, and keenly concerned to see that the just claims of these gallant men are met fairly and squarely and sympathetically. If in stating the case in detail, as I propose to do after the two speeches to which we have listened, I make rather a large draft on the patience of the House, I am quite sure the House will not consider that time ill-spent. It cannot be better employed than in surveying the conditions under which these men serve the State. As regards pay. In comparing the actual money payment that is made to the sailor with outside rates of money payment, we must, in fairness, take several other matters into consideration. The sailor not only receives a money payment, but he is fed, housed, and, to some extent, clothed. His wife and children—and a generous admission of that has already been made—receive separation allowance. At the end of his service, if he is a long-service man, he will receive at a comparatively early age a life pension, which is a good stand-by where-with to start out in civil life. Further, if he is disabled he receives a life pension on a not ungenerous scale. If he dies, and his death is attributable to, or aggravated by, service, his widow and orphan get consideration from the State substantially beyond the provision made in civil life by the Workmen's Compensation Act. So much by way of a general observation as regards the whole field.

Now look at his pay. There are very many classes of ratings in the Royal Navy, as both hon. Members know very well, and time fails me to deal with them all. I will take three of the main classes: the seaman class, the stoker class, the artificer class. Take the seaman class. The lowest rating is that of ordinary seaman, and his pay, as has been said, is 1s. 3d. a day. Those are generally young fellows under nineteen and single, though during hostilities older men with families have come in for hostilities, and as to those let me say a word or two in a moment. The next rating is the able seaman. His pay is from 1s. 8d. to 1s. 11d. a day. The next rating is the leading seaman, and his pay is from 2s. 2d. to 2s. 4d. a day. The next rating is the petty officer, and his pay is from 3s. to 3s. 4d. a day; the next rating, chief petty officer, whose pay ranges from 3s. 8d. to 4s. 4d. a day. Now take the stoker class. The lowest rating receives 1s. 8d. a day; the next 2s. 1d. to 2s. 4d.; the next 2s 8d. to 2s. 10d.; the next, stoker petty officer, 3s. 2d. to 3s. 6d.; the stoker chief petty officer, 3s. 10d. to 5s. 10d. a day. I ought to add that the stoker has an opportunity, though the opportunities are not, I admit, great compared with the whole number of persons in this rating, of reaching the rating of mechanician. The rate for that is from 4s. 6d. to 6s. 6d. per day. The third class, the engine-room artificer, receives a minimum pay of 3s. a day and a maximum of 7s. 6d. a day, and these rates, seaman, stoker and artificer, throughout are exclusive of extra pay, which is often considerable—badge pay, and so on. Further, in each case beyond the chief petty officer rank—and I have only got up to that—there are opportunities never so numerous as they are to-day for promotion to warrant, commissioned warrant, and commissioned rank. I think those who are interested in the well-being of the bluejackets, and we all are, will be rather surprised to know how many and how frequent these opportunities are to men, the opportunity of advancement from the lower deck to commissioned rank. I will not take for the moment the promotions to warrant or commissioned warrant rank. I will take promotions from the lower deck to commissioned rank. I speak myself as the son of a non-commissioned officer, and I speak with great pride of the opportunities that have been made in recent years for the sailor to wear the curl, and to hold the King's Commission, though I do not imagine that the last word has been spoken on this aspect of the problem of naval service by any means. Immediately before the War sixty-four mates were made from the lower deck. The mate, I should explain, is a sub-lieutenant who holds acting rank for one year until it is confirmed. Sixty-four mates were made before the War.

Out of the whole field. If my hon. Friend would desire me to tell him how many men there were at that moment eligible for commissioned rank, I will make inquiries and tell him.

From the beginning of the War onwards, since the 4th August, 1914, 328 more mates have been made from the lower deck. As I explained, the mate is a sub-lieutenant who holds commissioned rank for a year until it is confirmed. Further still, since war broke out the following promotions from commissioned warrant rank, warrant rank, and petty officer rank, have been made: To lieutenant, engine-lieutenant, or carpenter-lieutenant, for long service, 134; for specially good service during the War, fifty-seven; for specific gallantry inaction, six. That these fine men have fully justified our confidence in them goes without saying. Besides these classes, we have instituted commissioned rank and commissioned warrant rank for chief writers and stewards, commissioned warrant rank for the armourer branch, for the ship's police, sick berth staff, and have recognised the rank of lieutenant for certain of the senior chief schoolmasters, and promotion to commissioned rank has already been established through the rank of commissioned mechanician. The first commissioned electricians were made last year, though the rank was established before the War. The first commissioned telegraphists were made in 1915, and promotions from thence to lieutenant in 1916, although, again, these ranks were both created before the War. On the whole question of promotion from the lower deck, I should like to make this further comment: On the 18th of October last, Lord Beresford asked in another place, "How many warrant officers, petty officers, non-commissioned officers and men of the Royal Navy and Royal Marine Forces have been promoted to commissions for meritorious service in the Jutland and other naval actions during the present War." The then Civil Lord of the Admiralty gave the reply and figures asked for, and then Lord Beresford said:

I am quite prepared to leave judgment of our policy in this matter to Lord Beresford than whom, as everybody knows, there is no more generous or solicitous advocate of the just claims of the lower deck.

He said, "It is very satisfactory to perceive that the lower deck have been recognised that the getting those commissions which have been so long their due." I do not say that the last word has been said on this topic, but I do speak with some pride of the number of opportunities given in recent years for capable young men to find their way to the quarter deck. I turn to the next point—the direct entry of civilians—a point directly made by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh, and I want to deal with the criticism that we have unduly entered civilians to various higher ratings and to commissioned rank, thus doing prejudice to the legitimate claims—that is the case—of our own active service ratings. It is quite true that both in the engineering and accounting branches particularly we have been very glad indeed to avail ourselves of the services of volunteers from civil life. They came with special qualifications suited to the work which we required them to do. They desired to "do their bit" for their country in the best possible way during the War and then return to their civil avocations. We have availed ourselves gladly of their services, but I do not think it can be truthfully stated that we have deliberately filled these higher posts with civilians to the prejudice of the just claims of our own people.

I say I do not think it can be justly said. Why should we prejudice their claims. We have to do the best in the circumstances in which we find ourselves. The figures I have just given as to promotions from the lower deck, so far as they go, are the best answer to the suggestion that we have unduly prejudiced the claims of our own people by availing ourselves, in the higher ratings and commissioned ranks, of the offers of civilians who were ready to enter for the period of hostilities. The fact is that in certain branches we could not possibly carry on without the services of these highly-trained civilians. The expansion of the Fleet and its many auxiliaries make that inevitable. But supposing it had been possible—it was not, as a matter of fact—and supposing we had tried to meet all our needs by giving commissions only to our own people, what would have happened? When the fleet got back to its normal standard those officers would have had to revert to the lower deck, because we should have had an establishment far beyond our needs. Now I am all against that.

I should like to know of any other, and I should have thought the figures I have given showed the good faith in which we have dealt with this matter. The addition of these civilians was inevitable for the purposes of the War, but while I am on this topic I should just like to add this, and I am quite sure the officers and men of the Royal Navy generally will not for a moment begrudge the reference. I see that during the War there have been awarded to temporary officers entered from civil life—I am not dealing with civilians coming into the higher ratings, I am dealing only with temporary officers entered from civil life direct to commissions—I see there have been awarded to these officers one Distinguished Service Order, twenty Distinguished Service Grosses, twenty-one Mentions in "Gazette," and fifteen other mentions. I thought I should like to mention that, in view of the criticisms which have been levelled against the admission of these civilians, for the period of hostilities, to commissioned rank. I now leave the question of promotions from the lower deck. I leave also the question of direct entry of civilians to the higher ratings and commissioned rank, and I return to the treatment accorded to the sailor. In considering the money payment which is made to the sailor we must add—and it has been admitted this afternoon—the allowances paid to his wife and children since the 1st October, 1914. Prior to that there was no separation allowance at all.

There was not, and the sailor maintained his wife and children entirely out of his pay. Since that date we have undertaken that if he makes a minimum allotment of 5s. a week the State will add a substantial allowance, both in respect of the wife and children. The wife's allowance is 6s. a week for the ordinary able and leading seaman class, 7s. a week for the petty officer class; and 8s. for the chief petty officer class, and since April, 1915, the wives of warrant officers also have been included, and receive 8s. a week. As both my hon. Friends know well, an additional 3s. 6d. a week is also payable to a wife whose normal place of residence is within the London postal area. The children's allowances are the same for all these classes, but I want to call particular attention to the children's allowances, because, in order to meet the increased cost of living, which is one ground for this relief, the children's allowances have been twice improved since the War began. You really cannot set that aside. From October, 1914, when the first allowances were made, to February, 1915, the children's allowances were as follows: For the first child, 2s. per week; for the second, 2s.; and for the third and subsequent children, 1s. each. From March, 1915, to January, 1917, they were improved to this: For the first child, 4s. per week; for the second, 3s.; for the third, 2s.; and for the fourth and subsequent children, 1s. each. Then from January, 1917, onwards, and that is the rule to-day, the allowances for children under fourteen are as follows: First child, 6s.; second, 4s. 6d.; third, 3s. 6d.; fourth and subsequent children, 2s. each. I ought to add that, whereas we began by making the motherless children's allowances 3s. each child a week, we then made it 5s. for each motherless child per week, and finally we have made it for any motherless child in a family by itself 7s. per week, and where two or more of the same family live together 7s. for the first child and 6s. for each other child. Those are the allowances to wives and children, twice increased as they have been in respect of children.

By the House of Commons certainly, or rather the first by the Select Committee and the second by the House of Commons. I say these allowances are really in effect substantial increases in pay, because it is the Blue-jacket's custom, as I say honourably, to meet out of his pay the obligations which he owes to those who are dependent upon him. By taking a large part of that obligation on the shoulders of the State, we are doing what he would have done if the allowances had taken the form of increased pay. It must not be forgotten, and I must insist on this, that in twice increasing the children's allowances we have sought to meet the increased cost of living. So much for the sailor's pay and the State allowances to wives and children. Now I come to the question of his food. Here the State provides him with what is considered sufficient, namely, a daily ration in kind of the actual essentials and a messing allowance to supplement the same at the will of the man himself. The ration has been reduced, it is true—the allowance of bread from 11b. to 10 ozs., and the allowance of sugar from 4 ozs. to 2 ozs. a day. The former was reduced partly to stop waste and partly to assist in effecting the economy of flour, which is considered absolutely necessary by the Ministry of Food, and the latter reduction was made to economise the supply of sugar. The reductions were part and parcel of the reductions which have been extended over the whole community, though, and very properly so, they were based on a scale more moderate than the reductions to which the civilian community was expected to submit. But having reduced the amount of bread and sugar we increased the messing allowance. Having reduced the amount in kind, we increased the messing allowance by the value of the ration reduced—that is to say, by 1d. per day per man. With that messing allowance the sailor can take out food from Government provisions, which are kept at pre-war prices, or he can take out other foodstuffs from the canteen. Of course, the canteen prices have gone up since the beginning of the War. What did we do to meet that? We had increased the messing allowance by 1d. per day per man to meet the reduction in Government rations, and we increased it by another ½d. to meet the increased cost of the canteen charges—that is to say, the messing allowance now stands for each man at 5½d., whereas it originally stood at 4d.

Certainly; and we have put the valued 1d., on the messing allowance against that, and we have added ½d. because the canteen charges have risen.

I think it is fair to add that increased additional rations can be issued without charge at the discretion of the officer in command at any time if in his opinion the service upon which the men are employed is of a sufficiently arduous nature. As to whether the men's allowance of 5½d.—1d. added because of the reduced rations and ½d. because of the increased canteen charges—as to whether that really does cover the increased cost of what the man is bound for the purposes of sustenance to buy in the canteen at present prices, I will go into that matter again carefully once more with the Director of Victualling, but I cannot give any undertaking to-day. So much for that. As regards housing, I have already said—I need not go into that—that the sailor himself is housed rent free and the separation allowance goes to meet the increased cost to which his family is put in the way of housing, clothing, and food. I come to the clothing of the sailor, to which reference has been made, and I want to say one or two words about that. The sailor gets a free kit on entering, and he gets an allowance to meet the wear and tear of garments when he is engaged on such work as coaling. If he is transferred from one rating to another, involving a change of uniform, he receives a gratuity to assist him in providing the new uniform. He gets a free issue of warm clothing for winter wear. He gets a free issue of light clothing for tropical wear, and he gets the loan of everything necessary to protect him on exposed duty. In this connection I should like to read an answer which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh in this House on the 18th of July. My hon. Friend asked me, "What action, if any, has been taken during the War to minimise the cost to the seaman of the upkeep of his kit, having regard to the rise in prices of clothing materials in this country; and what arrangements have been made towards providing him at Government expense with such additional equipment as he requires to meet the exigencies of war service, whether by way of supplementing his kit or otherwise?" And this is the answer on the whole question:

"With regard to the first part of my hon. Friend's question, the practice in peace time is for the prices at which clothing is sold to the seamen to be revised annually upon the basis of actual cost. When the first revision of prices became due after the outbreak of war, the question of relieving the seamen of the full burden of the enhanced cost was considered, and it was decided that in revising the prices each year during the War the rule should be adopted not to advance the price of any article more than 10 per cent. each year, whatever the actual increase of cost might be. A revised list of prices on this basis was issued in 1915 and again last year. This year,—"

and I must call particular attention to this—

"however, it has been decided, as a further concession, not to make any increase at all in the prices, and the revised prices brought into force last year, which are generally very considerably below cost prices, will therefore continue without alteration. With regard to the second part of the question, special arrangements have been made to provide the men, at Government expense, with such extra clothing as is required for their protection and comfort under war conditions. For example, a gratuitous issue of warm clothing, including winter cap, woollen drawers, jerseys or cardigan, comforter, gloves, mittens, thick socks and stockings has been made each winter to men serving afloat in home waters and on other cold stations. Conversely, special light clothing has been approved to be supplied to men on tropical stations. The establishments of protective clothing, such as Duffel suits or coats, oilskin suits, sea boots, and watch coats, carried by His Majesty's ships for issue on loan to ship's companies, have been considerably increased in order to provide for all contingencies. Everyman is supplied with a life-saving belt, and special protective equipment is provided for use as necessary."—[OFFICIAL, REPORT, 18th July, 1917, cols. 322–323]

On the point of making no increase beyond the present price of the clothing which he has to purchase for replacement let me say this. If the sailors had to pay cost price through the coming year they would pay something like £200,000 during the year, more than they will actually pay at the prices we shall charge them. So much for their pay, food, clothing and housing. Now as to the hospital stoppages. I will take the point which has been raised and deal with the matter in such detail as I can. Let me say a word or two upon that. I am sure there is considerable misapprehension about hospital stoppages. The hon. Member for Devonport put a question at Question Time to-day, as a rule he is singularly well-informed on these topics, but his impression was that the officers suffered no reduction in pay. Another thing my hon. Friend quoted a case in his speech, and I recognise the case, because the hospital stoppage which he mentioned was immediately put right.

I think my hon. Friend might have mentioned that. It was put right immediately and directly our attention was brought to it.

It was immediately corrected and all I say on that it that my hon. Friend might have mentioned it. The hon. Member for East Edinburgh is, I think, under a similar misapprehension. He thinks that when a man's pay stops because he is in hospital, then his wife and children get no separation allowance. That is not so. There is no allotment, and ordinarily such allowances for wife and children depend upon allotment, but in the case where a man's pay is stopped in hospital the rule does not apply and we continue the allowance.

I should like this matter to be put quite clear. That is quite true because it is the same principle as obtains in the Army. But what happens to the man whose pay is stopped while in hospital.

If his pay is stopped and he remains in our service, separation allowance to the wife and children continues.

If my hon. Friend will discuss the matter with me, I will go into it more closely. I think I have removed one impression. My hon. Friend was under the impression that without an allotment there was nothing for the woman. That, at any rate, is not so. The allowance continues. But perhaps he will pursue the matter further, and I will consider it again. There is no stoppage of pay for a sailor or marine in hospital—and I want to make this quite clear—for reasons definitely attributable to or occasioned by war service. It is literally true that during war if a sailor or marine suffers any stoppage of pay during time in hospital, he is in hospital for reasons with which the War has nothing whatever to do—that is to say, he is in hospital for sickness which anyone might have contracted, war or no war, or he is in hospital for reasons which he himself could have avoided. Let me categorically state the facts as affecting sailors and marines. If a man is wounded in action there is no stop- page, no hospital stoppage; if the disease is attributable to, or aggravated by service, which leads to invalidity and the award of a disability pension, there is no stoppage; if he is injured in the course of duty there is no stoppage; insanity due to war duty service, no stoppage; disabilities arising from immersion, shock, etc., no stoppage. For ordinary sickness there is no stoppage for thirty days. For the period from thirty days up to ninety-one days, when his pay stops in the ordinary course, then there is a stoppage of 4d. to 10d. per day. The hon. Member for Devonport talked about 10d. That is the highest stoppage.

I beg the hon. Member's pardon. He began at 10d. and went down to 4d. I go from 4d. to 10d. I prefer to go the other way. Non-continuous service ratings—that is to say, officers' servants—receive full pay for thirty days and then there is complete stoppage. Their case is worse. Marines, serving afloat, are the same as sailors, but instead of the stoppage being from 4d. to 10d., it is 7d. The total value of hospital stoppages, the total amount deducted in the year 1915–16, was £8,300.

That is the very question I expected would be asked. Members may say, "Why do you not give up this £8,000 a year, when you are spending millions each day?" I can assure the hon. Member that it is not quite so simple as that. Two statements have been made on the question of hospital stoppages with which I should like to deal. The hon. Member for Devonport made one in a qualified form, and the hon. Member for East Edinburgh also referred to it. These statements were, "If they," the men "remained in hospital ninety-one days, their pay is entirely stopped, and the time so spent after ninety-one days is forfeited for purposes of pensions, badges, etc." That statement is correct. My hon. Friend the Member for Devonport made the statement that the time after thirty days is forfeited for the purpose of pensions and badges. That is not correct. In the case where there is hospital stoppage after ninety-one days it is true that time is forfeited for the purpose of badges and pensions, but I should like to go into the matter a little more closely, and if my hon. Friend who has raised the matter now, and raised it also at Question Time, will put down a further question in a few days, I should be very much obliged. The other statement is this: "If they," the men, "are invalided and return to civil life they must pay up arrears of health insurance to become entitled to benefits." I do not think that statement can be correct.

No; I am quoting from a document, but it cannot be correct, because no contribution is payable while a man is off pay, and if invalided arrears so accruing are not recoverable the man is at once entitled to full benefit. If my hon. Friend will put a question down again, I shall be pleased indeed to give him an answer.

Now take the next point—the case of long service pensions. Supposing a sailor serves his time fully with us, he will retire in the region of forty years, or a little more may be. He will retire on a life pension which for the seamen's class will range between £18 5s. ordinary and able seamen to £43 10s. for chief petty officers, for the stoker class his pension will range between £18 5s. and £46 10s. a year, the pension of a chief petty officer. For the engine-room artificer class, chief petty officer £60 a year; and again I do not go beyond the chief petty officer class in stating these facts, though, as I have said, opportunity was never so frequent as it is to-day for promotion to warrant, commission warrant, and commissioned rank, and, of course, through these higher ranks not only the pay, but the pensions are on a higher scale.

Yes, certainly. Now, with regard to disablement pensions. My hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh is very familiar with these, and he knows what they are. Supposing the sailor is invalided for reasons attributable to or aggravated by service, those of us who are closely familiar with the way in which the State, in the old days, measured and met its obligations to its sailors and soldiers and their dependants must have been filled with pleasure and gratification at the enormously quickened sense of public responsibility which the present War has developed. Take disablement pensions, partial and total. Look at some of the leading features of the existing schemes, which now are founded on a new Warrant, and contrast them with the systems they replaced. I do not deny that the constant solicitude of the House of Commons has helped materially to get these schemes up to the proper level and properly administered. If the disablement is attributable to or aggravated by service, then, in the first place, there is a flat rate which is a very material advance on pre-war provisions. And, further, the early war provisions have recently been improved. The pension is not only more generous, but it is a pension to be awarded without inquiry of any sort as to the man's earnings. It is 27s. 6d. a week for the men of the lowest rank. That is not all. Under the earlier war provision each child got 2s. 6d. a week. Under this new Warrant the first child gets 5s., the second 4s. 2d., the third 3s. 4d., the fourth and other children 2s. 6d. That is 15s. a week for four children as against the earlier war provision of 10s. But that is not all by any means. There is a most important feature of the latest Warrant—the policy of the alternative pension. That policy secures a pension, with earnings, if any, up to 50s. a week if the man had earned that much, and it secures a pension of between 50s. and 75s. a week if his pre-war earnings were between £2 10s. and £5.

Certainly not. But I am taking the whole Warrant. It will apply to those who entered during hostilities. Then in the case of totally disabled men, I come again to what is practically a new provision. Though on a slender scale, something of the sort existed before. I refer to the allowance, not exceeding 20s. a week, to a person for attendance upon a totally disabled man. Then as regards partial disablement, the new flat-rate scheme to-day is better, more certain, and more definite than the earlier war scheme, which provided for such pension as, together with what a man might be deemed to be capable of earning, would bring the total income of 25s. a week. Here, again, also comes the alternative pension. That is a very important advance. Then there is the valuable new provision by which a disabled man under treatment or training can get a full disablement allowance and a pension at the rate for total disablement; and if he is away from home an allowance at rates as for widow and children to his wife and allowances for dependants. The disablement pensions are on a scale out of all relation to the provision made in the past. No one can deny that. There is a substantial advance on the earlier war provision, and it reflects the spirit of determination which pervades everyone in all parties in the House and out of it to secure that our gratitude to our fighting men shall by no means begin and end with that lip-service which it is so easy to give, but that it shall be translated into a real provision for their needs. Hon. Members are familiar with the provision for widows and orphans, which again is a revolution upon pre-war provision. But there is a new provision of a pension for the widow of a war pensioner. Nothing of that character has obtained before in our history. A pensioners widow may under certain circumstances herself receive a pension from the State.

Not at all. The hon. Gentleman has not read the warrant. I am talking about a pension for a pensioner's widow. I have not the faintest doubt that it will be of the greatest assistance to these poor women as age advances and the day comes when they are deprived of the assistance they have received from their husband's disability pension. To sum the whole matter up, I do not honestly think anyone who dispassionately examines the whole field of this provision, whether from the point of view of the treatment accorded to the sailor himself while he is serving, to his wife and children while he is serving, to the sailor himself by way of pension when his service is full and complete, to the sailor laid aside by disability arising out of his service, or to his dependants if he dies in our service, will be prepared to say that this provision can be fairly called ungenerous or unsympathetic. I do not pretend that this is the last word on this problem. We have recently given consideration to the case of the married ordinary seaman. The ordinary seaman as a rule is a young fellow about nineteen and single. A state of war introduced older men with families, and a scale which is otherwise fair, just, equitable, and applicable to their case is not quite applicable to the case of the ordinary seaman, married, with a family. The matter was pressed upon me, and we took care to secure the concurrence of the Statutory Committee in arrangements under which they could remedy the defect in an otherwise adequate, but not altogether applicable scale. What we did was this. The sailor must make an allotment of 5s. If he makes a 6s. allotment the Statutory Committee would bring the total income of the wife and children up to that of the private soldier. We have been looking into the matter very closely, and we do not feel that the last word has been said upon this provision. The arrangement provides that the wife and children do not suffer, but I think the allotment which alone can secure that consummation is rather hard upon the ordinary seaman, and it is probably more than he can furnish without hardship to himself. This is what we propose. We shall arrange with the Statutory Committee that he need not make the 6s. allotment. If he makes the minimum allotment of 5s. the arrangement would be made to bring the income of the wife and children up to the level of the private soldier. That will mean a reduction of 1s. in the allotment that he will make, and it will be without prejudice to them, and will leave him with 1s. a week more in his pocket.

The only other matter is a question affecting pensioners, which has been pressed upon us for some time past by the hon. Member (Mr. Hogge) and others. This is the position: A pensioner who has been retired and is called back for service draws both pay and pension, but the man who becomes time-expired during the War and is detained for further service does not draw his pension, and will not draw it until he is demobilised from the active service list. It is quite true that he gets 2d. a day extra detained pay, and that he will ultimately draw his pension if he comes through, and when de does draw it it will be a larger pension because of the additional service; but here, and it is quite natural, when he is working alongside a pensioner who is drawing both pay and pension while he is only getting 2d. a day, it creates a sense of inequality in his mind. We have been going into this for some time, and we have now decided to add another 2d. a day for the second year, which will make 4d. detained pay, and another 2d. a day for the third year, which will make 6d. detained pay.

It will not be retrospective. That is the concession I am authorised to make. I cannot carry it beyond 6d. There is one other matter which is under our consideration. The hon. Gentleman (Sir C. Kinloch-Cooke) put it to me to-day, but I am afraid I cannot make an announcement. Ten-pence a day life pension is fixed as the basis for the seaman. He can, however, raise that to a maximum of 1s. 2d. a day by earning badges and so on. He can get additions beyond 1s. 2d. for petty time. What the hon. Gentleman puts to me is this: If a sailor, not having any petty time, has got to his 1s 2d. maximum, and then serves beyond his proper period of service, he does not get his 2d. a day detained pay—he gets no addition to his 1s. 2d. I really think we must go into that. It is a thing worth looking into.

I should like to be quite clear on that concession of pay. I understand what the Admiralty propose to do is to deal with the question by progressively increasing the detained pay, but they make no suggestion at all with regard to the accumulated pension of the man who happens to be killed during the War. Has the Admiralty considered what the widow and children of that man will be entitled to?

The arrangement is this. Twopence a day for the first year, 4d. a day for the second year, and 6d. a day for the third year. I do not carry it beyond that, and it is not to be retrospective. Further, I can give no undertaking at all with regard to the return to the widow, if the man dies before entering into his pension, of the value of the pension which he otherwise would have drawn. But I can say this on behalf of the Board of Admiralty, which I have served now for over nine years, that neither now nor at any time have I found its members other than promptly ready to listen sympathetically to the appeal of the lower deck, and promptly active to apply the hand of reform to the removal of grievances wherever the case for removal has seemed in equity to have been established.

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer my point in regard to dockyard pensions? That is a very important point, and I must press for an answer on that.

I did not go into that, because the whole Debate was in reference to the pay and services of the sailor. My hon. Friend did raise the question of the narrowness of the pension of regard to dockyard pensions? That is a question which he has raised on more than one occasion. He must realise that he is raising a very large question. The Civil Service Estimates will show him that the non-effective Vote for Civil Service Estimates is something like £4,000,000 a year at the present time. Therefore, I do not give any undertaking. In regard to the 2d. a day, I want it to be understood that that is pay, and not an addition to pension, which is another matter entirely.

The other day the right hon. Gentleman wrote a letter to me in regard to the question of the dockyard pensions and bonuses, and in regard to those who were able to work in the dockyard being able to retain their pension. The Admiralty said in that letter that they were forwarding a letter with their commendation to the Treasury. May I take it that that was not really a pro forma way of expressing themselves, but that they really intended to press the Treasury to consider the point?

Is this matter the hon. Member comes up against the Superannuation Act, under which a man who is retained in the employ of the Government is not allowed to have, byway of various sources of income, superannuation, etc., and current income, more than he was receiving at the time when he was superannuated. That is a question for the Treasury which administers this Act. It is not a question for me.

I rise to bring forward a question which in its principle will interest, I think, every Member of this House, namely, that of the suppression of a paper. It is to the honour of this country that no battles have been fought with greater spirit or more tenacity than those waged for the liberty of speech in this country. Some of the greatest orations in this House and the House of Lords have been delivered by the champions of free speech. Those speeches live in our day, and some of them have immortalised the men who uttered them. I rise on behalf of a little publication called the "New Republic," of which the second number has been sup-pressed. Mr. Speaker said that he had not previously been aware of the existence of this paper, and until a month ago not a great proportion of the inhabitants of this country had heard of its name. After this that proportion will be largely in-creased. The "New Republic" has come to live, and to work and lay the basis for the new time. It describes itself as:

"An unconventional journal devoted to the spread of knowledge and right service; to the consideration of science, literature, art, politics, philosopy, religion and everything else under the sun; to the promotion of brotherliness and goodwill and to the establishment of the new Republic."

So far, apart from the last phrase, there is nothing to which any hon. Member can take objection. Therefore, the sting must be in the phrase "New Republic." But we have already been assured by no less a person than the Home Secretary that it is not an offence to style a paper the "New Republic" or to publish under that title. Therefore, we must look for something else in the body of the paper to find the cause of the offence. The headings of the articles will show the general type of the periodical as being not even a newspaper, but a philosophical paper debating high principles of government in a philosophical manner, and with perfect propriety. The title of one article is "Standards," by Arthur Lynch, M.P.; "A Republic—Now," is the title of another article.

It has no date, because it was never published. It was intended for this month. "War and its Causes" is the title of another article. Other articles were "The Practical Value of Ideals," and "Ethics of Republicanism." These articles constitute almost the body of the paper, and one can guess from the titles the manner in which these questions are discussed. I propose afterwards to dot the i's a little and to quote briefly from some of these contributions. Hon. Members will see that this paper was not a paper which dissimulated news. It was not a paper which by the greatest strain of probability could have been said to have given information to the enemy. It was simply a paper of opinions. It has been suppressed, and suppressed, I am told, under the Defence of the Realm Act.

When a paper in this country is suppressed, even perhaps for one article or for one phrase, the whole paper is suppressed, and no information is given to the editor as to what was the offending passage or what was the reason for its suppression. Is that reasonable? Compare that with what is done in France. I get the French paper regularly, and occasionally I find my familiar paper with a column blank. Sometimes a column will have the title of an article, but there will be nothing intervening between the title and the signature. That shows that the entire article has been suppressed, but the rest of the paper is not suppressed. Sometimes it may happen that only one line is suppressed, or one phrase. It may happen occasionally that the title itself goes, and nothing is left of the article but the signature, which duly appears. That signature itself is eloquent. It tells the public that an article—for example, by Georges Clemenceau—has been suppressed and has been denied the light of day by the official censor. Here the paper is suppressed, and no information is given and no guidance whatever, and it would look to me that often some little slip is seized upon as a pretext to suppress an issue, not for that slip, but for the general character of the paper, particularly in its criticism of the Government. It would appear that in war-time there is to be nothing published in a paper having a Republican tendency. Let us take a lesson again from France. Not only the nation, but the Republic itself is fighting for its life; but the French allow the fullest freedom of publication to the Royalist papers. There are many Royalist papers in France carrying on an active, even vehement, agitation. None of these papers has ever been suppressed for the publication of Royalist views; yet this paper here, the "New Republic," has been suppressed, mainly, I believe, on account of its tendency.

Now we come to another point. Who is it that suppresses these papers? Who is the Censor? Let us try to discover him and ascertain some notion of his mentality. The other day I saw this exploit of the Censor, that whereas in a report of the recent air raid in the East of London, the phrase occurred, "I washed the blood from little Elsie's face," the Censor, tremulous for the safety of the nation, and fearful lest the Germans should obtain any point of information, struck out the name "Elsie" from the phrase, and in place of "Elsie" put in the word "girl." These feats are amusing. One would think they emanated from a Gilbert and Sullivan opera, but these are the exploits of men employed by the Government and defended from that Front Bench. So much for the mentality of these censors. Let us consider the question of their moral courage. One of these uneducated, and I would say, judging from this experience, mentally deficient persons, who are in charge of this important public function, are the individuals who, when they come across a phrase which they do not understand, or about which they have doubt, avoid responsibility. The Censor has two alternatives. He can either let the copy pass or suppress it. If he lets it pass, he accepts responsibility. Now, if there is one principle which is inculcated from the highest to the lowest office in this Government, it is the first principle to avoid responsibility, to throw off responsibility, to be able to say, "It is not I; it is someone else who is to blame." Therefore the censors naturally incline to suppress anything about which they have any doubt. That is their line of safety, and they know that no matter how wrong or imbecile may be the suppression, it will be defended here, and that foolish act will be invested with all the majesty of the Defence of the Realm.

I propose to put into the forefront of what I have to say the chief cause of the offence in regard to the "New Republic." I will select not the more timid portions of the articles, but those marked by audacity. This article of mine on standards seems to me one of the boldest, although a subject of academic discussion. In fact, I begin the article by apologising for bringing forward such an academic question for discussion in a dynamic paper. The reason why I called the article "Standards" is this: I examined three positions, one that of a Prime Minister, the other that of a foreign Minister, and the other that of the ruler of a country. In an academic way I examined the qualities which a nation has the right to expect from each one of the representatives. With a perfect philosophic calm I deal with these qualities, and I then examine in comparison our actual representatives. I have no doubt that is the sting of the whole matter. I say:

I then go on:

"What would be thought of a people who regarded the application of such standards as the most insidious and wicked form of treason; who desired a man of foreign origin, and blood so pronouncedly foreign that it would be rendered impure by mingling with that of the nation; who desired neither brains, nor character, nor beauty, nor strength, nor gifts of heaven, nor genius, nor high quality of soul; but the chance of a principle, everywhere else scouted in the social life—heredity—and as accessory, purple cloth, gold braids, blaring trumpets, and intense servility in all the citizens?"

Some may think that that is severe. I only ask one question, Is that true? And who will say no?

Let us give him every chance. He needs it. There is another, a rhyme which may have been a cause of offence. Here, again, I am not inclined to shield the paper in any shape or form. I will give the worst; this is by a man of whom I never heard until lately—W. N. Ewer. It is called "Cousins German." The lines run: of their opinions or of free intercourse, or to do anything to create that spirit which was seen afterwards in the French Revolution—a manifestation much more terrible than that which he saw before his eyes. So, as a matter of practical wisdom for this Government, is it not better to allow the people to enjoy free expression of opinion, even though in such a paper as the "New Republic," which is not favourable to the Government itself?

Since the repression of the "New Republic" I have had letters from all parts of the country, not merely from strong Radicals or Socialists or Irishmen, but all grades of society, including what I venture to think is the most conservative class of all—naval officers—and I have been amazed to find how widespread and deep is this current of republicanism which is now manifesting itself in England. I will read only one letter as a sample. It is from the Workers' Union, Manchester branch. The hon. Member for Barrow (Mr. Duncan), for whom I have a great respect, is the general secretary of the union. The letter is: Republicanism is not a destructive doctrine, but that it is the one principle which within the next few years or perhaps within the next few months will be found valid in holding together as one great association of nations those condominions—the Dominions, Ireland and Great Britain—so closely united in many other ways, and that for this country, if she desires to maintain her place, it will be necessary for her to cast aside many of the traditions of the past, to free herself from the cramping influences that tell of the middle ages, and to march boldly in step with the spirit of freedom that comes from overseas. I believe that in speaking so I am not uttering destructive doctrines, but pointing out in the larger scope the means of safety, the path even of prudence; and it is with my eyes continually fixed upon those ideals, strengthened at every turn by the force of my arguments, that I myself have advanced and will advance resolutely before all the world in the advocacy of the great principles of the republic.

I wish to make a few remarks on a subject not the same as that alluded to by the hon. Member who has just addressed the House, though nearly allied to it. I desire to call attention to certain events which transpired in the neighbourhood of my constituency on Saturday. A meeting had been arranged about a month beforehand to be held by a body which came into existence, I think, at the conference held in Leeds some time ago. It was one of a series of meetings which were to be held in different parts of the country for the purpose of passing certain resolutions and for the purpose of electing delegates and a committee who were to be the governing body of this association. This meeting on Saturday, which was one of the series of meetings, was arranged to be held at the Brotherhood Church, Southgate Road, Islington. I understand that the arrangement originally was for it to be held at the Memorial Hall, Farringdon Street, but the authorities probably had memories of what happened once before, when soldiers of the Crown were allowed to break up a meeting without any reprimand or without any attempt to make them put right the wrong which they had committed. This caused a certain amount of caution on the part of the authorities who had the letting of the hall, with the result that the place of meeting was changed, and it was arranged to be held in the church which I have named. For some weeks past an obscure newspaper owned by a German named Blumenfeld whose patriotism is exaggerated probably by that fact, a paper called the "Daily Express"—

It is edited by this gentleman with the old Anglo-Saxon name, and has distinguished itself again and again by endeavouring to make impossible anything like fair public discussion and to suppress all kinds of views which were not accepted by the Government. It published attacks again and again upon this particular meeting. The result was that it had become widely known—though the meeting itself was a private meeting of delegates called for the purpose of announcing a policy and electing certain persons to the organisation, and consisted of persons representing co-operative societies, trade unions, and Socialists' bodies—that this meeting was about to be held. An hour or so before the time of the actual meeting an open-air gathering took place at Whitmore Hill, in my Constituency, and I understand that public incitements were given to the crowd from the platform to accompany their leaders for the purpose of breaking up the meeting. Moreover, in the public houses—a most appropriate place—quite near this church this circular was exhibited publicly: That was published in the local public-houses all round the place where the meeting was to be held. It ought to have been known to the public authorities, as the fact of the meeting taking place was known to the public authorities some considerable time before.

The meeting marched to the church in Southgate Road before the gathering actually took place. It attempted to break in the doors. Failing in that operation, it smashed the windows and eventually forced its way through the doors, smashed the furniture, attacked individuals, men and women alike, and did a great deal of damage without interruption by any public authority and without any attempt at control by the police or others—I am quite aware of the fact that I have no right to discuss the police here—and generally they succeeded in their effort to make a failure of the purpose of the meeting, but the fact which I want to impress on the House is this: that the mob—public-house loafers and others who had been gathered together for this purpose previously—was led by a number of Australian and Canadian troops, accompanied by an officer. I want to call my hon. Friend's attention to that fact because I think it a very significant and very important fact.

I turn to the Army Regulations, and I find that Regulation No. 451 states that interfere, the soldiers did interfere, and saved her from the attack of the crowd. There is another significant fact in connection with this matter. There were no less than four photographers on the spot anticipating what was going to happen. One of them drove up in a motor car, and here is a description of one of the photographs, indicating the kind of thing that happened. A correspondent writes to the "Daily News": rently under the sanction of the police. I do not want to detain the House, but I do ask the Government, either the Under-Secretary for War or the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, to give us some assurance that this kind of thing shall not be repeated. Meetings can be held in perfect peaceableness in different parts of the country—in Leicester, Newcastle, and other parts of the country, where the delegates discussed and passed exactly the same resolutions. When such meetings are held in London why should the elements of disorder be loosened, and make impossible free and fair discussion of public questions, even in war time, questions which, though at the moment unpopular, may sooner or later become popular? Minorities in this country have a habit of growing into majorities, and the feeling in regard to-the War frequently undergoes changes. Men are longing for peace. They, like myself, desire that we shall win a peace that shall be satisfactory, and, if necessary, that the fight shall go on until such a peace has been won. But what can you say if you deprive those who take other views in regard to the War of the opportunity of stating those views by suppressing their meetings? What will be the effect upon the public mind? The effect will be that the fact of these meetings, which would, if left alone, have reached dozens or hundreds, will spread among thousands and millions, simply because of their having been suppressed in this way. I ask that we should have some guarantee that our churches will be safe from outrage and violence of this kind, and that our public meetings, even when gathered to discuss unpopular questions, shall be possible of being held free from interruption, and that the force of the Army of liberty, and the Navy of liberty, shall be used for the purposes which they claim they are fighting to establish, namely, liberty abroad, and not to destroy it at home.

The last two speeches to which we have listened have raised questions which to some extent affect my Department. I take the earliest opportunity of replying, and will deal first with the speech of the hon. Member for Clare (Mr. Lynch), who complained of the suppression of a paper called the "New Republic." I think the hon. Gentleman is mistaken when he said that that paper was seized or suppressed, What happened was this: The publisher of the paper wrote to the Censor sending him a copy of the number proposed to be published, and asking the Censor to scrutinise the passages and pass them for publication. The writer said:

"We trust we are in order in putting this matter before you, as we wish to safeguard ourselves against liability for printing matter which may be considered as against the Defence of the Realm Regulations."

In other words, the publisher invited the opinion of the Censor on the contents of the paper proposed to be published, and the Censor pointed out that to publish them would be in contravention of the Defence of the Realm Regulations. The Censor might have avoided that if he had done what the hon. Gentleman accused him of being willing to do, and he might have said, "You can publish it if you like, but you publish it at your own risk"; but he took the bolder and more helpful course, and said, "No; you cannot publish this, and, if you publish it, it will be breaking the law." That is the only action the Censor took. The matter has come before me, and I have read the paper proposed to be published, and I am bound to say that I agree with the Censor. The paper undoubtedly, if published, would have been a breach of the Defence of the Realm Regulations, and it seems to me that the matter contained in it was intended to prejudice the recruiting and discipline of our Army. I think that if the Censor had passed that matter for publication he would have neglected his duty and encouraged the publisher to commit a breach of the law. That is my opinion. If I am right in that, I think the House will agree that the Censor had no other course to take except that which he did take. The hon. Gentleman has taken occasion, as a Member of this House, to read some parts of the contents of the paper, only giving samples, and not, I think, quite representative samples. I am not going to read other passages, which are perhaps more open to condemnation, but the reading of which would give the matter greater publicity than it ought to have. I have nothing to do, nor has the Censor anything to do, with opinions or with theories, and I am sure that it was not for the suppressing of opinion that he took the course he did. This publication contained not opinions only, but coarse and scurrilous abuse of the Sovereign of this country, a man who is doing perhaps as hard and, indeed, harder work in this War than any living man. If the hon. Gentleman thinks fit to hold theories contrary to our Constitution, he and his friends cannot with impunity publish scurrilous, unfair, and false attacks upon the Sovereign of the country. There was also matter intended to create disaffection in our Army and to prejudice recruiting. That fact alone is good enough reason for the Censor's action. I think the Censor in refusing his sanction was right, and so long as I represent the Department I shall continue to encourage him in a similar course.

Can the right hon. Gentleman quote a passage inciting the Army to disaffection?

I do not propose to quote the passage. [An HON. MEMBER: "You cannot!"] To quote it would be to give publicity to the passage, and I am not going to do that.

At all events, I have my own opinion and my own judgment, and that is my judgment. So much for that matter.

The speech of the hon. Member for Haggerston (Mr. Chancellor) raised the question of the meeting at Southgate Road. The police were aware that this meeting was going to be held in London. It was my duty to consider the question whether it ought to be allowed to be held. I could only prohibit it if I considered the holding of it likely to lead to a breach of the peace. I have nothing to do with opinions. That was the point I had to consider on the question of prohibition. It did not seem to me, as I said last week, that I had any evidence to show that this was likely to lead to a breach of the peace. I knew, of course, how extremely unpopular were the views and the actions of those persons who were holding the meeting. I know perfectly well that there is the greatest possibly indignation in London and elsewhere throughout England amongst the people when they are told of the action of these men. I am not here to say whether they are right or wrong; and they believed the object of the Workers' and Soldiers' Council meeting was to create disaffection at home so that our people might be discouraged, and, if possible, to create disaffection in the Army, though that I believe to be wholly impossible. It was also very much resented that they should, although they have the smallest possible support from workers and practically none from soldiers, call themselves the Workers' and Soldiers' Council. There is the greatest indignation, I believe, amongst persons perfectly law-abiding at that. The meeting was to be a ticket meeting, and the place where it was to be held was kept secret so far as possible. I certainly had no idea that it was widely known.

I think the police were quite right in coming to the conclusion that there was no practical reason to apprehend a breach of the peace, and I certainly, therefore, thought that I had no right to prohibit the meeting. The meeting was held, and a force of police thought to be sufficient was in attendance. Of course, they did not show themselves, because the effect of showing themselves would be to attract a crowd and counteract one of the main objects of the police—to avoid anything in the nature of trouble in the streets or elsewhere. I confess I knew nothing until to-day of the notice which the hon. Gentleman has read in the House. I do not think, from what I am told, that it was a printed notice.

I do not know what evidence the hon. Member has for that. At all events, it did not come to the notice of the authorities. As soon as the trouble began the reserves of police were called out; and when the trouble was proceeding a very large force of police was in attendance.

I do not care whether he does or not. I have the exact figures here, and I see that there were between 150 and 200 ordinary constables, besides about fifty special constables. That force was called out. I say it without hesitation that the police, as they always do, did their very utmost to prevent the rioting going on and to defend the building and those inside. The accounts I have re- ceived not from the police only, but from other persons, show that the police did their very best. When the hon. Member for Haggerston asks for an explanation as to why the police did not protect those people there, I give him a complete contradiction of that statement. I am as certain as I stand here that the police did, as they always do, their best to defend the persons and the property which might have been affected. As regards the soldiers, I do not believe they were instructed by anybody on that day. I can only say that until the hon. Gentlemen will say from whom they received instructions, and until he has much better evidence on the point than he has produced, the House will not believe that anything of the kind occurred.

I did not say they had received instructions. I only said that one of the soldiers said they had.

Then I think the hon. Gentleman is almost alone in the House and I think it is unworthy of him to make that libellous assertion. That is the simple statement. There was, I am told, only one arrest, and one can understand, with a crowd running into thousands, that it is difficult for the police, however numerous, to effect arrests and retain those arrested. They did their very best. They arrested one man and I believe they are applying for warrants against others whom they know. In fact, they are following the usual procedure.

I do not know. At all events, they are following their ordinary course, and they are doing their ordinary duty. That is the simple answer to the hon. Gentleman's attack, and I am quite certain that the public can rely on it that the police did their best.

That is not a matter for me. It might be fairly said that there was no meeting at which they were present, but I am not concerned with that matter. I think the House will agree that the attack made on the soldiers and police is wholly undeserved, and I need not pursue the subject further.

The point I wish to raise is the question of the man-power of the Empire. The man-power of the United Kingdom was referred to two or three days ago. I should just like to urge on the Government the very serious danger that there is now owing to the great discontent in calling out all the old married men of forty and forty-one. I was in my Constituency this week-end, and in the market place of my little town I was accosted by man after man who complained to me of old married men of forty being called up while young men of twenty were left behind. An instance was given to me where a farmer of forty was called up and his son of eighteen was exempted by the Munitions Department. I think the fair method would be to call the men out by age, thus those at the age of nineteen should be called without any partiality, and so on with the other ages. I trust that the Government will do something to provide a remedy for what is causing so much discontent. Every man who is exempted is said to be indispensable. The railways say their men of nineteen are indispensable and the Munitions Department and every other Government Department say that their men of nineteen are indispensable. I say that the really indispensable men to this country are the old married men of forty. They are the men to whom we all look and let the young men take their turn at the front. The present system is a most hopeless muddle. If you go into any of the offices started by the War Office you will find a large number of girls filling up a large number of forms. One of the first things you have got to do in all those offices is to provide that the lists of tribunal substitutes—that is, those exempted on condition that they become substitutes—should be sent direct to the substitution officer and not to the area employment officer. When you have got them before the substitution officer he should be given the power to compel the substitutes to take employment and the employer to take the substitute. At the present moment if the substitute refuses there is no power to compel him to do work. We do want some simplification in the offices and in the mass of odd forms that have now to be filled up.

I come to the question of man-power outside the United Kingdom. I have raised the subject of Malta, Gibraltar and Cyprus several times. Their total populations amount to 542,000. If the Military Service Acts were applied as in England it would enable us to get one in ten, and you would thus have 54,000 men. Malta has a population of 228,000, and I know that there are there a certain amount of Militia and Artillery, but nothing like the 22,000 men, which should be available for military service. Why should not Malta supply more labour battalions to be sent over to France to relieve British labour battalions? In Cyprus the population is 294,000, and why not take the 23,000 Greeks available, if the Military Service Acts were applied, and send them to Salonika at once? And out of the 56,000 Muhammadans take 5,000, who could be sent to fight with the Indian Muhammadans in East Africa. That is man-power in the Mediterranean which you have not touched. Look at Egypt. The population is 11,000,000 at least, and yet there is only an Army kept up in Egypt of 17,000 men. The British Army has been employed for the last two years in the heat of the Egyptian summer. Instead of 17,000 we ought to be able to raise 70,000 and get them to garrison their own Western frontier. Look at the canal? We have driven all the Turks clean away from the canal, right away beyond the Sinai Peninsula into Syria. Surely the Egyptian troops can now take over the guarding of the canal. We know that Egypt is only a protectorate, but surely it should be able to protect its own frontier, and I think it ought to be compelled to do so. Why should British troops be kept in Egypt doing that? Look again at the Soudan. The Soudan has a population of nearly 4,000,000. The Soudanese troops—very excellent troops they are—why should they not be doubled, trebled, or even quadrupled and sent to the Front?

Again, let us go round to East Africa. There is a population there of over 4,000,000, while Uganda has a population of nearly another 3,000,000. We have in the King's African Rifles a body of magnificent troops. Every single one has been declared to be a magnificent fighting man. Good heavens, cannot we raise two or three regiments of King's African Rifles, or ten regiments of the kind, out of this between 4,000,000 and 7,000,000 population? They want to be used, and have volunteered. Why ought they not to be made use of? Talking of East Africa reminds me that the state of the Indian troops in East Africa is deplorable. They have been fighting there now nearly three years. The regiments are only up to one-third of their strength. They have not been reduced by fighting, so much as by malaria and sickness. I consider they ought to be relieved, as there is no doubt about it, from what I have been told, that these Indian troops have had these troubles brought on by the lack of proper rations. They have had neither vegetables, potatoes, onions, ghee, or rice, and they have suffered greatly in consequence. I would ask the Secretary for India to take this matter into consideration. It is high time that these regiments which have been kept continuously in the unhealthy climate of East Africa since the very commencement of the campaign ought to be relieved by fresh battalions from India, especially as no leave is available for either officers or men. We have had two Royal Commissions, one in connection with the Dardanelles and the other in connection with Mesopotamia. We do not want a third in connection with the condidition of the Indian troops in East Africa. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to institute a very earnest and thorough inquiry, and I think it would be well if the Government of India were to send a qualified officer to East Africa to see to the welfare there of the Indian troops.

I come now to South Africa. We read an interesting account in the newspapers the other day when the King was in France of the inspection of the South African Labour Battalions. I daresay all hon. Members will have read that account. Considering, however, that there are some' four and a half millions of natives in the Union territories of South Africa, surely we ought to get some further labour battalions from there, and more than there are in France at present? The newspaper correspondent described the labour battalions as composed of magnificent men. A greater number of these black battalions could be raised than have so far been raised. Out of those, too, already in France probably a large number would volunteer for combatant service. Why should they not be trained and equipped for such? I do not see why we should allow the French alone to have their Singalese and other native troops. We do not make the most use of our manpower that we might by a good deal. I should certainly bring for the purposes I have indicated large numbers, and, indeed, all we could get from South Africa to France, and should allow those who wished to volunteer for combatant service, and would train them to do it in France.

Finally, I would wish to say a word about India. In this connection I am glad to say that at last we have had a director of recruiting appointed. The work, I presume, will now have been seriously taken in hand in connection with recruiting the fighting races of Indians for service in the regular Indian regiments. These, though, are but a small proportion of the whole population. I would wish to point out to the War Office that we ought to enlist irregular regiments in India. Why should there not be irregular troops enrolled for the maintenance of internal law and order, and so relieve the Regular regiments for service abroad? They could be under their own sirdars; there would not be required more than one or two British officers. I want to urge that immediate steps should be taken to enlist for internal service in India during the War irregular battalions of Bhils, Meenas, Gonds, etc., from the aboriginal tribes of Central India, and also Brahms and Baluchis from the tribesmen of Baluchistan. Though not fitted for service in Regular regiments, all these are admirably adapted for service in irregular battalions, and I would back them to keep order in riots in large towns in India just as well, if not better, than a Regular Indian regiment. A large number of Regular troops have also, as we know, had to be kept in India to repel raids in large force by the wild Pathan tribesmen, such as the Mohmunds and Wazis on the North-West Frontier. I can think of no better men to tackle these frontier raiders than the Zulus and others from Southern Africa. I should dearly like to let loose a division of Zulus against the Mahsud Wazis, and I cannot think why a division of these men should not be enlisted in South Africa and sent over to India, where they could be trained and armed and employed against these border savages, and so help to liberate more Indian regiments for service overseas.

The native Indian Defence Force has proved a miserable failure. Remember, we instituted it to serve in India, when there was such a cry created about those concerned being allowed to be volunteers. When, however, the door was opened to them they have almost entirely refused to volunteer. We were told only the other day by the Secretary of State that in the whole of India only 1,100 had given in their names, and of these only a company of 250 men had been actually enrolled—this out of a population of 250,000,000 British subjects in India! As I have said, the Indian regiments which have been serving abroad for so long in East Africa ought to be relieved without delay, and doubtless some of the regiments in Mesopotamia as well. Every day questions are asked in this House about the men who have, perhaps, been a year and a half away being given leave from France, but the Indian troops feel the prolonged absence from their homes much more, and some thought should be given to them as well. Taking all these things into consideration, I do hope that the Government will seriously consider this question of increasing our man-power, and will no longer delay to make the utmost use of all men available throughout the whole of the Empire.

I wish to raise the case of an individual officer which has some connection with the subject which the hon. Member for Haggerston raised. It is the case of Second-Lieutenant Sassoon, of the 3rd Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers. This young officer, I think, appears to have one of the finest and most gallant records of service in the Army. He enlisted as a private—without waiting for the War to break out—on 3rd August, 1914, and I imagine would be one of the first 1,000 men to enlist. He has been wounded, and has been awarded the Military Cross for conspicuous gallantry. He has received formal recognition from the General Commanding for distinguished service in the field. About three weeks ago this young officer came to see me, and told me he had written this letter to his commanding officer. The Undersecretary will see that this letter raises the question of policy which has to be considered in the light of the treatment which is meted out to those soldiers who break up meetings. It raises a question of policy, and why there should be differentiation of treatment between soldiers who hold one set of opinions and those who hold another. The writer says:

This young officer asked me if I would follow up his case and, if necessary, bring it to the notice of the House. What he anticipated has occurred. After some delay he was forced to appear before a medical board, and the board, having heard the opinions he had expressed in the letter, informed him that he must be suffering from the effects of a passing nervous shock due to his terrible experiences at the front. He was sent to a hospital for officers suffering from shell shock and other minor ailments. I read that letter, because I think, however profoundly hon. Members may disagree from it, that it contains no indication whatever of having been written by a man suffering from any kind of nervous shock. This young officer is known to Members of this House. I myself had a long interview with him only a few weeks ago, and he certainly impressed me as a man of most unusual mental power and most extraordinary determination of character. The fact is, that the decision of the medical board is not based upon health, but based upon very easily understood reasons of policy. It was quite clear that it was the easiest way to avoid publicity. I think it was also based upon reasons of personal kindliness. This was a very popular and distinguished young officer, and the medical board was only too ready to believe that this letter could only be written by someone suffering from nervous shock. But the evidence is the letter, and I really do not think any impartial person would say that that letter is any evidence at all. As a matter of fact, this officer had been in this country for three months, and it had never occurred to a soul that he was showing evidence of nervous shock until he wrote the letter.

I raise this question at this moment for the reason that it raises the question of what policy the War Office is going to adopt towards those who break the King's Regulations. During the whole period this War has lasted soldiers in uniform have been permitted month after month to break up meetings held by those whose opinions are opposed to those of the Government. That is a breach of the King's Regulations. The Home Secretary said that these soldiers did not attend the meeting. He has only to read the newspapers and see the photographs to ascertain that soldiers were inside the meeting and damaged the property inside the hall. The War Office, from the beginning of the War up to this time, has never lifted a finger to stop these scandals taking place. [An HON. MEMBER: "It has encouraged them!"] I object to it, because these little groups of soldiers, got together by disreputable newspapers, misrepresent the feeling of the Army. If the Under-Secretary would give the necessary leave for twelve hours, the organisers of this very meeting could bring up to London in two hours, as he knows very well, whole battalions of soldiers in this country in their support. We do not want to raise this question in the House, but the hon. Gentleman knows it is so. A brigade could have been brought up within two hours, with 95 per cent. of the soldiers in that brigade ready to support the initiators of this meeting. What is the use of the Home Secretary saying there are no soldiers on that side? The fact is the War Office ought to be impartial. It ought not to allow soldiers to break up meetings to support its policy, and then, as it has done, when soldiers in other places meet peaceably together, to speak contrary to that policy, point to Article 451 of the King's Regulations. This policy is using the soldiers as a pawn in the political game. That is why I have brought this case up. This letter of a young officer is worth reams of articles in the newspapers, and it is worth hundreds of soldiers got together in order to break up a meeting without knowing what the meeting is about. That is why it is necessary in this House to prevent the action of this young officer being stifled and discredited by the absurd doctrine that it has been due to the effects of nervous shock.

Perhaps I may be allowed to answer one or two points put by the hon. and gallant Member opposite with regard to the forces raised in the Colonies. As the hon. and gallant Member is well aware, the number of men that can be raised there is determined by a number of considerations—I refer to the Colonies he has mentioned, such as East Africa and West Africa—the nature of the climate, the suitability of the natives, and the possibility of getting officers for them—a good deal more than that, seeing how recently these Protectorates have been acquired—the extent to which they are under control. But, subject to that proviso, I think the record of what has actually been done will probably satisfy the hon. and gallant Gentleman than the manpower there is being utilised to a very considerable extent. With regard to South Africa, I think at present there are over 10,000 in the coloured labour battalions in France, and the High Commissioner is authorised to raise up to 40,000 more, which he is endeavouring to do. If I turn to East Africa, the record is really much the same. The hon. and gallant Member spoke, I think, of two or three regiments of the King's African Rifles. At present there are twenty battalions being raised, of which the greater part is already in existence. They amount to over 15,000 men, and the number will be brought up to 30,000. I hope the hon. and gallant Member will not forget what really is very vital in considerations of this kind when you are at war in a place like East Africa. Carriers are just as indispensable a part of the fighting forces as the combatant units themselves. During one year—I am speaking now in broad figures, but T am understating a good deal, I think, when I say that nearer 200,000 than 150,000 carriers have been raised from Rhodesia in the south and East Africa and Uganda in the north. I know in about nine months about 70,000 were raised in the south, over 50,00 in a single province in East Africa, and over 30,000 in Uganda. Turning to West Africa, after the Cameroon operations were finished, there has been a special recruiting campaign there, special instructions being sent out, and, by arrangement with the War Office, a special officer went there to look after recruiting, and, subject always to the difficulty of getting officers and transport, as many men are being raised there as possible. I think probably about 9,000 to 10,000 are already either in East Africa or on their way there from West Africa, and another 10,000 carriers.

That is the type of measure taken throughout. I will not go through all the Test in detail, but I may perhaps add that where it has been possible and feasible to introduce a Military Service Act it has been done. It has been done in British East Africa, and, for example, in Jamaica. I think from those figures the hon. and gallant Member will realise that in the first place, wherever it is possible to have military service with justice it is being enacted, and that, in the second place, subject to the difficulty of getting officers and transport and of having tribes who will furnish fighting material, practically all the resources are being utilised to the best of our power. Of course, it is quite possible that as time goes on, and every turn of the screw is given, a little extra here and there can be got. That is occuring regularly from time to time. Instructions were sent out to release men from the white Civil Service early in the War. Instructions were sent out again at a later period. They have gone out again recently, the "whip" always being made stronger. In just the same way increasingly strong injunctions are being sent with regard to the recruiting of native forces, whether as combatant units or for carrier service. Perhaps, from what I have said, the hon. and gallant Member will be satisfied that perhaps even more has been done than he realised.

I wish to raise the question of leave. I have raised this question many times, and I never seem to have received a really satisfactory answer. The complaints of which I speak are really not from soldiers who have any sense of disaffection, but who feel that there should be some consideration for long service. Soldiers enlisted for the duration of the War, but they had no idea that it meant being at the front the whole of that period. The number of letters I have received from people who, for various reasons, regret that there has not been a chance of the return of their sons or their husbands or their fathers is very large, and there are no unpatriotic motives at any time mentioned in those letters. They have no desire to say that they are tired of the War or that they have lessened in their loyalty to the causes of the War, but they do feel that there is some sense of partiality in connection with the giving of leave. Whereas some men have come back to a village two or three times, in other cases husbands or sons have not returned once. One can easily understand the difficulty of administering a large force like the British Army, and the misunderstanding on the part of people as to the different positions of the soldiers, but even in certain companies, and in certain regiments, the same thing arises. A census has been suggested, and the hon. Member representing the War Office gave us some hope that some such system as that would be introduced. I certainly hope there may be some method to secure that no man shall go from a company twice until every man has been once, and no man thrice until every man has been twice. The sense of inequality hurts more than the non-granting of leave.

There is another point which, I think, is a very strong one. This is really a great social question. You have no right to expect men and women to keep straight without giving them the opportunity of keeping straight, and allowing a man to come home to his wife and children and preserving those ties between home and the soldier which length of time destroys. The man loses touch with his home and the wife loses the influence of a husband's guiding hand and care. I have letters from hundreds of mothers who tell me they have children of one year and eighteen months who have not yet seen their father. This is an aspect really that has something to do with what is termed "war-weariness" on the part of wives of soldiers and on the part of the soldiers, and I do ask the hon. Member representing the War Office to regard this as a very serious question really worthy the consideration of the War Office, in the steadying not only of public opinion, but of rousing the House and of bringing the soldiers some hope that they may yet again come and see their homes and their wives and families.

I do not know of any subject raised in this House which receives greater sympathy than the request we receive from all parts of the House that soldiers serving in the various theatres of war should have such leave as the exigencies of the Service will allow I have on more than one occasion replied to questions of this sort, and recently I held out the hope to the House of meeting the case made by my hon. Friend that the Field-Marshal Commanding-in-Chief in France was to be approached by my Noble Friend the Secretary for War to consider whether preferential leave could not be given to the soldiers fighting in the trenches, and that priority of leave should be given to the men who have served the longest. I am hopeful that within the near future steps will be taken to give that preferential leave. I know all hon. Members have the interests of our fighting men at heart, and no one realises more than I do how urgently necessary it is to grant leave for the purposes which my hon. Friend opposite has adumbrated. At the same time the first and primary consideration must always be that our frontline trenches should be well kept and guarded, and one must therefore leave a delicate question of this sort within the discretion of the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief.

I am led to understand that all the General Officers Commanding-in-Chief are very sympathetic on this point, and are most anxious to give such leave as is possible. I would remind the House that the soldier at the front has never regarded this as a grievance himself. He merely describes it as hard luck, simply and solely because the system under which leave has been given is one under which a certain number of men are allowed to go by ballot. Of course, some men are lucky and others are not, but no doubt the best system would be that to which I have referred, namely, that preference be given to the men who have been longest at the front without leave and that should be the rule and primary consideration. I get a great many complaints and so do hon. Members in all parts of the House from the distant theatres of war. In the South African War the question of leave never arose because the theatre of war was so distant and transport was impossible, and therefore the question of leave could not possibly get the prominence which it does when the theatre of war is near. I feel very much for the men stationed at Salonika, Mesopotamia and India, because largely owing to military exigencies and lack of available transports their leave must be much more difficult than leave from theatres of war near at hand.

My complaint was as to leave being unevenly distributed in a certain companies or batteries, and that it is left entirely to the regimental authority.

I think up to the present it has been largely a question of allowing a percentage to go and that has hitherto been a matter of ballot. One knows of cases where a man has had leave twice and another only once. I believe in different divisions in the various theatres of war different plans for giving leave prevail, but my information is that it is largely a question of luck in the ballot. I am hoping that in future a new system will prevail which will give a certain sense of fairness to the men.

Will there be a guarantee that no soldier shall have leave twice while another has not had leave once? It seems unfair that one man should go twice while another has had no leave whatever.

There are a great many small things which affect leave apart from military exigencies. A man may forfeit his leave by an indiscretion, or he may have been sent down to hospital. I am going now to deal with the main question raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Lees Smith). The first I heard of this question affecting this gallant young officer was on the 21st July when I was asked a question, put down by my hon. Friend opposite, asking whether any disciplinary action had been taken in this case. I consulted my military advisers and they at once telegraphed as follows:

"A breach of military discipline has been committed, but no disciplinary action has been taken since 2nd Lieutenant Sassoon is reported by Medical Board, 20th instant, as being not responsible for his actions, suffering from a nervous breakdown. This officer proceeded to the Craig Lockhart War Hospital, Slateford, Midlothian, N. B., 23rd instant."

What is the position which my hon. Friend adopts? He put down his question first of all thinking that a cruel and callous War Office Department were going to court-martial this young officer.

My question was put in order to have the case put in as official form as possible, and I put down the question whether he did create this breach of discipline, and I ask whether disciplinary action had been taken. I knew he had been told that he would have to come before a medical board and I knew he had refused to go.

If that is the case then my hon. Friend did not put down a very candid question, and I should be very sorry if hon. Members were in the habit of treating myself and my colleagues in this way. I thought he had put down a bonâ-fide question, and that with his well-known humanitarian feelings he thought the War Office or the military authorities in the Western command were going to treat this man as if he had committed a breach of military discipline. I called the attention of the Director-General of Personal Services to this case. Here is a case where, if what they are accustomed to say is true, the War Office would at once court-martial this man for writing this letter as a breach of discipline, but they have not done so, and there must be some other reason.

The proper reason is that which is given in this telegram, that the military authorities saw that there must be something very wrong in the case of such an extremely gallant young officer who had done excellent work, and who had shown, by getting the Distinguished Service Order, that he was no mean soldier. He comes home, and when it is found that a man of this character has written a letter of this sort to his fellow officers, conclude that there must be something radically wrong, and instead of taking disciplinary action they take the natural course of asking him to appear before a medical board. I do not think even my hon. Friends opposite would go so far as to say that a medical board, knowing the man to be guilty of a breach of discipline, in order not to assist the political attitude of my hon. Friend and his colleagues, would say that this man was suffering from shell shock. I have great respect for medical boards, but I do not believe for a single moment that they would solemnly send a man to an institution of this sort under those circumstances, and I hope my hon. Friends opposite will not press me to accept that view.

Here is a gallant young officer who has done his best at the front, and done nobly, and, like so many others, has received a nervous shock; he comes home, and in a state of very great nervous agitation he writes this letter, which I understand is now going to be published by the No-Conscription Society. I think my hon. Friend should hesitate before making use of a letter written by a man in such a state of mind, because I do not think that will help the No-Conscription movement, and I am quite convinced that such action would not be appreciated by the relatives of this gallant officer. Therefore I ask my hon. Friend and those associated with him who have made use of this letter to hesitate long before they make further use of it. I will now deal with the other general questions which have been raised, and I will deal with the assertion that there are large numbers of troops ready to come forward taking the view expressed in this letter.

I was referring to the meeting. I said there could be produced brigades, 95 per cent. of which would favour the objects of the meeting.

I am most anxious to let the War Office know where those brigades exist, or where even such battalions exist. I do not think my hon. Friend could produce a company which would come forward from any one battalion and give open expression to the views which the organisers of this meeting were advocating.

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman's attention has not been called to the fact that in a town within two hours' distance of here five battalions of soldiers elected delegates who met at a meeting and passed a series of resolutions—not revolutionary resolutions, but still resolutions—generally favourable to the policy of the Kingsland meeting, and sent copies of that resolution to the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for War, and asked the Prime Minister to receive a deputation.

I know something about the special circumstances, and I know the town to which my hon. Friend refers. Does he really mean to represent that five battalions solemnly assembled themselves together on a certain day to elect delegates and pass resolutions, and asked the Prime Minister to receive a deputation?

This is the first I have heard of it, and it is the first that any member of the Government has heard of it. I have no doubt that my hon. Friends might pass a resolution as representing the whole of the Labour party in this country and say that it represented the best intellectual opinion in the country.

My hon. Friend suggested that five battalions actually assembled together.

The whole story is well known to those who have followed it. I did not say that five battalions assembled together. I said that five battalions separately held meetings and elected delegates to a common meeting, and that delegates' meeting passed a series of resolutions dealing with separation allowances, and demanding, among other things, that the Government should state the objects for which the soldiers were fighting. Those resolutions were sent to Headquarters, and the delegates have been specially invited to meet the Brigadier-General. The whole thing is well known, and is being dealt with by the War Office.

That is quite a different thing. My hon. Friend suggested that the whole of those five battalions assembled together.

I am within the recollection of the House. In circumstances like these there will be nothing to prevent my hon. Friend or his colleagues from going, let us say, to some foreign country and representing the British Parliament as delegates. I want to get at the bottom of this. It is all very well to call these men delegates. I want to know whether the battalions as a whole selected these delegates. [An HON. MEMBER: "Yes!"] My hon. Friend says "Yes." I beg leave to differ. I do not know that he raised any other point with regard to the Kingsland meeting which has not been dealt with by the Borne Secretary.

Will my hon. Friend deal with the point, which the Home Secretary evaded, as to whether or not disciplinary action will be taken to prevent a repetition of this kind of thing?

I did not know that this question was to be raised, but I would like to contradict at once the idea that officially from the War Office or from any high source any soldiers of any class or kind were given instructions to go and break up this meeting.

Will they be punished for having broken the King's Regulations or will they be allowed to go on breaking the Regulations with impunity, provided that they succeed in breaking up these meetings?

The hon. Member is not entitled to interrupt continually. He has put his case, and he must allow the hon. Gentleman to reply.

I do not admit it, and I do not deny it. I do not know any more than I have seen in the Press; but it seems to me to be stretching a point very far to say that these men are to be convicted because they happen to have joined the procession and marched to the place of meeting. I have no knowledge, nor has my hon. Friend, that any of these soldiers broke down any part of the building, or broke up the meeting. The only evidence which my hon. Friend produced was that a gallant soldier intervened on behalf of some woman, and the only other thing that I saw was, also to their credit, that another soldier was supposed to have asked the crowd to desist from breaking up the House of God. These are the only two instances I have seen where soldiers intervened at all, and until I receive absolute proof that soldiers did intervene in any such way as the hon. Member suggests, or for the purpose of breaking up the meeting, I should be foolhardy if I promised to take any disciplinary action.

I should like to enforce the appeal of my hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Wing) with regard to soldiers' leave. It is a question on which I know soldiers feel very deeply. A great many of them have only had one period of leave after being out about three years. The regiment which I have the honour to command has been away now for over two years, and has been all through the Dardanelles and the Salonika campaigns, and some of the men have not yet had any leave. I hope my hon. Friend will represent to the military authorities that there is a strong feeling on the part of Members of this House on this matter. I want to raise the question of the reconstruction of Silver-town. I do it in no spirit of hostility to the First Commissioner of Works, though I am afraid I must charge him with having expended a very large sum of money, namely, £130,000, in a manner which is perpetuating a condition of things which is greatly prejudicial to the health of the people of Silvertown, and which to my mind perpetuates a disgrace to our civilisation. My attention was first called to this matter by a lady, Miss Partridge, who is engaged in philanthropic work down there, and who saw what was going on. She saw that these houses were being reconstructed on foundations of liquid mud. Instead of concrete, wooden floors were laid down on these pools of liquid, poisonous mud, and she thought that the best she could do was to get an expert to look into the matter. She got a gentleman called Mr. Rossiter, of 95, Little Cadogan Place, and this is what he said:

As a matter of fact, this area of West Ham is in a really disgustingly insanitary condition. This, of course, is not chiefly the fault of the right hon. Gentleman, but the fault of the London County Council. The sewage system for West Ham is below the main drainage system, and owing to the defective pumping arrangements made by the London County Council whenever there is a very heavy fall of rain the whole area is flooded with water infected with poisonous matter. I do think it is a very striking commentary upon the conditions in which a great number of people are living at the present day in the capital of this great Empire; and on top of these disgusting conditions the Government go and establish an explosive factory, blow half the houses down, kill an enormous number of people, and when they are undertaking the work of reconstruction do it in such a manner as can only bring about conditions which shorten life and increase infantile mortality. That is all I have to say on this matter. As I have said, I have no feelings of animosity against the right hon. Gentleman, but at the same time I cannot help feeling, and feeling most strongly, that in this work he has gravely neglected his duty.

The Noble Lord has raised this subject more than once, and I can quite understand, knowing as we all do his very great interest in the welfare of the people, that he considers he has a very good case. I must take very strong exception indeed both to his statement of fact, which is inaccurate, and to his attribution to me of indifference in this matter. I would like to explain to the House for one moment, if I may, the conditions under which this matter arose and the reason why my Department took it up at all. We all remember than on the 19th of January this year there was a sudden disastrous explosion which took place at Silvertown. I happened to be away from London at the time, and as soon as I came back I went down, I saw the, site, I saw that a very large number of houses were damaged, some destroyed, and that we had a most difficult emergency to deal with. This has nothing to do with my Department whatever, and if I had been indifferent, as the Noble Lord suggests, I should have gone away, left the district to look after itself, left the people to starve in the cold, and done nothing at all. I thought it was an opportunity of rendering assistance, and I suggested to the Prime Minister the next day that my Department would be prepared to deal with this emergency rapidly, make the houses winter and waterproof, and so rehouse these people as soon as possible.

It was not a matter of charity. The Prime Minister consented, and within three days of the explosion work was begun. The Noble Lord says-it was a matter of charity. There again he is entirely mistaken.

The right hon. Gentleman suggests that it is a matter of charity.

No, I do not. My Department acted in this matter as the agent of the Ministry of Munitions. It is obvious that these houses to be repaired could have been dealt with in two ways, either by leaving it to the private owner to do as he liked at his own expense and afterwards to make a claim against the Government, or to deal with it more rapidly, properly, and cheaply by means of the Department over which I have the honour to preside. That is the line that was taken. The next question was: What were we to do? Were we to rebuild and alter the character of this private property at the public expense, or were we to endeavour to replace to the best and quickest advantage? The instructions we had, and I think the natural instructions, were that we were to replace, and these instructions, within these limitations, were carried out. The Noble Lord seems to think that this question did not occur. As a matter of fact, it was one of the very first questions that occurred to me. I asked what powers we had to deal with landlords whose houses were in a poor, and even insanitary condition and compel them to contribute to the matter. My Department had no power whatever to deal with this matter. I then proceeded to the Local Government Board, which is the public authority, and consulted them, but they had no power to deal with the matter. The next point I suggested was bringing pressure on the local authority, and the local authority and the borough engineer were fully cognisant of what was being done, but in spite of the by-law which the Noble Lord read out, there is apparently no authority of the local authority to condemn houses as insanitary which are really being repaired. I would point out that it is not merely a question of floors. If he had accompanied me he would have found other things much worse than floors which I think ought to be attended to if you are going to rebuild the houses. That is the position from that point of view.

The Noble Lord has never made clear to me what he expected me to do. We were repairing some 900 houses. Were we to pull up the floors of the whole of the 900 houses and put down concrete floors where there were mud floors; and if so, were we to keep these people for months out of their houses with nowhere to go, people who were sleeping in schools and temporary huts? If we were not to do that, what were we to do? Most of these houses have no damp courses in their walls, and concrete floors, unless you constructed the walls, would be a waste of money leading to very little effect. The next step would have been to pull down the walls. What the Noble Lord invites me to do is not to repair but to pull them down at the public expense and rebuild them for the benefit of the private landlord. He could not be serious in that. All this time these 2,000 families, in the middle of the. winter, with nowhere to go, would have nowhere to go. It was obviously an impossible proposition, and the policy we had to lay down—only one of a hundred similar points that arose —was the policy of reinstating, as far as possible, and making the houses as habitable as they had always been. The Noble Lord seems to be unaware of the fact that sixty per cent. of the workmen's houses in London have exactly the floors that the houses of Silvertown have. Although I have met concrete and damp course floors which are an advantage, it is an enormous exaggeration to say that these houses are so unhealthy that people cannot live in them. As a matter of fact, the report of the medical officer of this district shows that there has been less epidemic diseases in the last few years than in any other part of the borough. I do not attempt to explain it, but I can show the Noble Lord that statement. I think it may be explained by the statement he made at the end of his speech, and the effect of which he may not quite have considered. He said that the London County Council sewage may sometimes overflow. I am doubtful whether if you put down a concrete floor which is impermeable and get the London County Council sewage on it it would not be dangerous.

It would stop on them. It would be more dangerous than if it were allowed to go out.

I do not think that is a very fair interruption. There are only two cases the Noble Lord raised, cases which I know very well because he has raised them before, and those are the cases of two houses where the water he; complains about was due to burst stopcocks in the water pipes under the house. The pipes were repaired, the wet soil was taken up, the space filled in with dry rubble, and the conditions of the houses is actually superior to that of the majority in the borough. I must confess that I do not think it is right on a case like that of two burst stop-cocks to make against a Government Department a charge of carrying out a great piece of work, under difficult conditions, with indifference.

I did not make it on those two cases. I made it on several others, if the right hon. Gentleman wants to know.

I have only mentioned two, but I gave two other witnesses who have mentioned other houses.

The Noble Lord says he-mentioned two witnesses, but he has not given me the numbers of the houses, and I cannot possibly reply to that. I say he has only specifically referred to two houses. I have gone into the question of those two houses, two out of the 885 repaired. I can only deal with facts put before me. The Noble Lord said, Why did not I bring pressure? I did. I could show him minute after minute on this question, which I put down myself very early in the proceedings, asking if pressure could not be brought on the local owners, and we did succeed to some extent in getting local owners to contribute. When the Noble Lord says the property has not been im- proved he is entirely mistaken. I do not know whether he has ever seen the property, but I have.

As a matter of fact, the property has been very considerably improved, and for that I can produce evidence from quite independent sources. The fact that I received quite unsolicited testimony from something like 400 of the dwellers in these houses when they saw that an attack was being made on me and my Department is a great gratification, not so much to me personally, though I take a great interest in the matter, but to those who did such arduous and difficult, and I may say ungrateful, work in dealing with this question. It is obviously not a grateful task to the Department which has produced the Well Hall Garden City, which I think is a model, to undertake a job of this kind—to repair property a great deal of which, I agree with the Noble Lord, is of a very poor character. I hope it will some day be replaced; but that is a very different thing from charging either myself or my Department with having neglected our duty in dealing with this matter. I can only repeat that I have gone into it very fully and followed it very closely. I went down there very frequently myself, and I feel nothing in this matter with which to reproach myself or those who acted on behalf of the Department in carrying it out.

Personally, I think I have a right to complain about this particular matter, because the people who have been in communication with the Noble Lord have never said a single word to me in any shape or form during the whole time this has been in operation.

I am sorry to interrupt, but the circular from the National Housing and Town Planning Council, giving all the facts, was sent to the hon. Gentleman.

8.0 P.M.

I must beg the Noble Lord's pardon. As a matter of fact, so far as I remember, I have never received a single communication from anyone in regard to this particular matter, because if I had I should have been as energetic in trying to get it rectified as the Noble Lord, for I have been a member of the West Ham Corporation now for over twenty odd years, and not only that, but with my colleagues upon the West Ham Town Council we had done our level best to improve that part of the division long before the explosion took place. Everybody who knows that part of the division knows perfectly well that it is the lowest part of the borough. The houses that are complained of were built on very marshy land many years ago, under what was then known as the old Local Government Board, and at that time, to all intents and purposes, they had no by-laws to guide building operations because, if they had had the same by-laws in operation then as now, it is very questionable whether these houses would have been built at all. In some of these houses there is only about 5 ft. air space between the backyards and the fences which were up at the time of the explosion. I was under the impression that after the explosion there would have been a possibility of practically ripping down the whole of these houses and of rebuilding them on proper lines. I should have no hesitation in saying that if the houses were going to be built on what we understand as sanitary lines to-day, you would have to go down very very deep for the purpose of getting a proper foundation and of preventing the damp rising, because that part of the borough is so exceedingly low. When the Noble Lord raised this question some little time ago, I thought it my duty to communicate with the mayor of the borough, and also with the borough engineer, asking what had really happened. I was under the impression that the borough engineer would no doubt have been watching very carefully what was really taking place. I have been told by the mayor, and also by the borough engineer, that there is a vast improvement now on what there was then. If the houses are as bad as the Noble Lord suggests, then they must have been exceedingly bad before the explosion. There is no doubt there is only one solution for that part of the division—not only for those houses about which the Noble Lord has complained, there are many other houses to all intents and purposes in exactly the same condition. That part of the borough wants ripping down from top to bottom, and rebuilding altogether. But that would be an exceedingly costly business for a borough like West Ham, where the rates are exceedingly high—I think, about the highest in the Kingdom. During the last fifteen years we have made vast improvements in many other parts of the borough. Unfortunately, Silvertown, for some reason or other, is one of those parts where we have not been able to carry out many improvements, and I think I must agree with my right hon. Friend when he spoke of infantile mortality. I think that infantile mortality in that part of the division—of course, it may not be the reason that because the conditions are any better than they are in other parts of the division—but in the Silvertown ward the death-rate is certainly very much higher than in Custom House and Silvertown.

It might interest the hon. Member if I read him a letter which I received from Silver-town. It is as follows:

"When it rains hard the water and sewage comes upward from the drain and fills my yard and washhouse with slime and muck, and when the water subsides the soil ex the lavatories lies about the yard, and we just sweep it up and burn it in the dustbin. Of course, some soaks in the crevices of the brickwork, and usually there is a pool of water under our living room floor during the winter months."

I have no doubt that the letter, to some extent, of course, is true. As I have said, the damp part of the division is what is called below watermark, and that is the reason that these houses were in the state the Noble Lord has complained about. I can see no remedy at all, if that really is the state of things; and no doubt the greater part of the ward wants ripping down. In that part of the borough, as far as infantile mortality is concerned, it is not so high as in some other parts of the division. Whether that is due to the fact that there are many chemical works in that part of the division, which kill the microbes, I am not prepared to say, but that part of the division is one of the worst parts in the whole of the borough. But I am not sure that there are not other parts of the country as bad as West Ham, and whether there are not places in Nottingham as bad as West Ham for instance, the Marshes. I should have no hesitation in saying that that part of Nottingham is just as bad as the borough of West Ham. It is a very unfortunate position, and no one can defend these houses being rebuilt in the way in which they are being rebuilt. All I can say is that I was assured, both by the borough engineer and the mayor of the borough, that the houses were certainly in a far better position now than when this unfortunate explosion took place. I should have been only too pleased and delighted, and all the people of the borough of West Ham would have been only too glad, if something could have been done to rip these houses down and to rebuild them on proper sanitary lines. There were two rows of streets, composed of absolutely new houses which had only been built within the last two years, which were cleared away by the force of the explosion exactly in the same way as those very bad houses, to which the Noble Lord has referred.

What I do want to complain of is that those people who have communicated with the Noble Lord about this very unfortunate state of things ought, in all fairness to myself as the representative of that part of the borough, to have communicated with me. I should have looked into the matter perhaps more keenly than I have looked into it, because I had thought that everything was going on all right. I say, quite frankly, that I had not the slightest information that things were so-bad as the Noble Lord suggested. There was a letter in one of the local papers, "The Stratford Express," after the Noble Lord raised the question two or three weeks ago, from either the borough engineer or the mayor, about the matter, in which it was pointed out that although the conditions are exceedingly bad, they were certainly far better now than they were before the explosion took place. I only want to repeat what I said before, that there is absolutely no remedy at all, save to rip that part of the borough right up, from roof to foundation. It is on very low, marshy land, and it would mean that you would have to dig down a very long way, many, many yards, and to build, either upon tiles or concrete, if you are going to make these houses absolutely sanitary. I am exceedingly sorry that my Friends who have been communicating with the Noble Lord did not think it worth while to communicate with me about the matter, because if they had done so, I should have done my level best to prevent anything being done as the Noble Lord suggested in his speech.

The hon. Member for North Norfolk made a speech on Tuesday last on the Vote of Credit. I make no apology for following up his challenge, because, not only is he a person whose word is of considerable weight, but because the matter is so important in itself. It has become particularly important owing to a remarkable article which appeared this morning in the "Times," taken from one of the principal Italian newspapers dealing with the particular point at issue. I read the speech of the right hon. Member for North Norfolk made last Tuesday—unfortunately neither myself nor any of my Friends who take the same view were present, because we did not know that the subject was going to be raised, and it would not have been possible for us to have been present that evening—I read that speech with equal disappointment and surprise, because, in it, he absolutely revokes all the views which he has held previously, so far as I know, during the course of his public life, and during which he has had experience of the particular questions which are now at issue. The hon. Member wrote a book two years ago, which was published in April, 1915, in which he put the case for the break-up of Austria with extreme emphasis. He pointed out that in the interests of the peace of the world it was an impossible thing to regard as possible anything but the break-up of the Austrian Empire. He summarised it at the end of his book by these words: idée Autrichienne? I make bold to say that the idée Autrichienne has no attraction except for about 200 families of the aristocracy in Austria itself, and for the politically-minded part of the Roman Catholic Church, a part which, I am happy to say, is greatly diminishing. I do not believe that there is any part of the organisation of the church in Austria, except the Jesuits, who hold to this idée Autrichienne. The Slav peoples, none of them, hold to it. We know that the Croats, the Serbs, the Slovaks, the Slovines, and the Czechs are all opposed to it. We know that the Poles are opposed to it; the Magyars, even, hate the Austrian dynasty, as a dynasty, and the German-Austrians in Austria are attached to the dynasty only because it gives them power.

It being a Quarter past Eight of the clock, and there being Private Business set down by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means under Standing Order No. 8, further proceeding was postponed without Question put.

Colonial Bank Bill [Lords]. (By Order)

Order for Third Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."

We have this evening an opportunity of learning a little more about a mysterious Bill which has been passing through this House, I have asked some of my hon. Friends for information concerning it, but the information received has been remarkably meagre—I will even say suggestive—therefore I take it upon myself to ask for an explanation from the Chairman of Ways and Means. Apparently this Bill is one which gives vastly increased powers to a bank which was established eighty- one years ago, called the Colonial Bank, which was established to finance commercial operations in Jamaica, the West Indies, and British Guiana. It was content to carry on until quite a recent time the quite proper and moderate financial and commercial work which could be assigned to a bank of this kind—namely, that of a purely local character, trading as it did under the authority of being established by Royal Chàrter. In the year 1856—a time, I believe, before most of us were born; certainly long before I was born—it received an additional charter, the object of which was to enable it to transact business also in New York. The business of the West Indies developing in the direction of New York, it was thought fit to increase its operations, so I understand—if I am wrong, the Chairman of Ways and Means will no doubt correct me—by allowing it to establish itself in New York and also in London. In the year 1898 a private Bill was brought in and passed through this House which further extended its powers. More recently, in a time of war—indeed, only last year—a further Bill was introduced which passed into law on the 25th May, 1916. That Act, which I have before me now, is a very remarkable one. It ought not to have been passed without more comment than it received at the time. It practically made this bank, which was established to work in the West Indies, and only in the West Indies, a Colonial bank for the whole of the British Empire. It largely extended the whole scope of its operations and also its powers and capital.

I am very sorry that although I made some observations in this House last year about that Bill, we did not have some explanation upon it, because it seems to me that at a time like this, when we are raising up new schemes of trade and finance, when we are setting up a Ministry of Reconstruction, when the whole of our commercial, financial, and industrial policy is in the making or the melting, we ought not to give largely increased powers to bodies of financial magnates. There is no doubt that the men concerned in this bank are financially very powerful men. I object, at a time like this, to giving largely increased powers to financiers. If there is money to be made out of the War, if the new opportunities for trade and commerce which are to arise after the War are to be profitable, let us not beforehand give these increased powers to our financiers and bankers. Let us say that these additional profits and big opportunities for making increased wealth may arise after the War, but do not let us give them away beforehand to corporations by enlarging their scope and granting them increases in their Royal Charters. I am very glad to see a good Socialist here, and I hope he will find that there is some good sense in what I am saying. I suggest to him and his party that they should attend to Bills like this, which are going to be very profitable indeed, because it is the early bird, or the early banker, who has the first chance.

On a day like this, when a great deal of attention is being given to vast subjects of national and Allied policy, I shall not enlarge upon this theme, but I want to call attention to the fact that there are one or two prominent politicians connected with this Bill. I am very glad to see one of them here to-day. I hope we shall have some explanation from the hon. Baronet the Member for Worcester (Sir E. Goulding), who is one of the directors of this bank. He knows much more about it than I do, and can enlighten the House much more ably and fully than I can. As he is the only Member of this House who is, so far as I know, a director of the bank, I hope he will give us his view on the matter. My point is that a charter for a bank given eighty years ago for the special purposes of one set of Colonies, namely, the West Indies, ought not to be indefinitely extended, as it is by this Bill, to a charter to trade in privileged circumstances over the whole world. That is what it means. For my own part, I go so far as to say that a Bill of this character ought not to have been introduced as a private Bill at all. Of course, I do not take the point, which ought to have been raised earlier if it was to be raised at all, that the Bill could only have been brought in as a public Bill. I go so far as to say that when big questions of financial and commercial policy of this kind are brought forward they ought not, at this time of day, in these political circumstances and in these years of war, to be introduced as private Bills, but ought to come definitely before the House in the form of public Bills. I have only stated the case briefly, but I hope I have said enough to make those hon. Members who are present agree with me that some explanation of this Bill is demanded by this House before we give it a Third Reading.

I am a little at a loss to understand exactly what explanation it is that the hon. Member desires. What is known as the Unopposed Bill Committee, of which I am by virtue of my office the Chairman, gave the most careful attention to this Bill and examined it very thoroughly, and did not pass the Preamble until it was fully satisfied that a case had been made out for it. It, of course, was not within their province, nor, as I understand the Rules of this House, is it within the province of the House, to consider any large question affecting banking as a whole in connection with a single private Bill. The case put before the Committee upstairs, with which in the end the Committee was satisfied, was simply that it was desirable, in the interests of British trade now and after the War, that the area in which this bank might establish its branches should be enlarged. There was no question of giving a special privilege to this bank amongst any other banks, but we had, of course, to consider this proposal from the point of view that this bank, like a few other banks, works under statutory authority. In the first instance, it was founded by Royal charter. Later on it came under Parliamentary authority, and one of the reasons why it has to act within statutory authority is that it has a special right and duty in connection with the Note issued in the West Indies, and that is one of the reasons why, in my view, it was desirable that a Committee of this House should very carefully investigate the proposals which were made. But all, I think, it necessary to say in reply to the hon. Member is that after a very full hearing before the Committee, in which I was assisted by two very capable colleagues from the House in addition to Mr. Speaker's Counsel, the Committee was unanimous in passing the Preamble. It thought it right to introduce into the Bill a restriction as to the proposed increase of capital which would compel the bank in the course of a few years to come back to Parliament if it required any further extension, so that Parliament might still keep under review the manner in which it exercised the powers which the present Bill proposes to grant. Perhaps that, and the fact that the Committee was unanimous in its decision on the Bill, will satisfy the House that it might properly be given a Third Reading.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his explanation. What he has stated gives, at any rate, some greater confidence than one had before in the Bill.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.

Consolidated Fund (No. 4) Bill

Postponed proceeding resumed on Question, "That the Bill be now read the third time."

Question again proposed. Debate resumed.

The hon. Member (Mr. Buxton) went on to give a third reason why he had changed his opinion so completely and it was that he had come to something more final still, namely, that the new Russia declines to lift a finger to break Austria up. I do not know on what ground he says that. The Russians are unwilling to make peace with Austria separately and they are still fighting, as I understand, for the objects for which the Allies are fighting. The hon. Member probably refers to the question of "no annexation," but we have not got to the bottom of that yet. We do not know yet to what final conclusion the Russian Government and people may come as to the meaning of the expression "no annexation." I believe, so far as concerns the freeing of the peoples of the Dual Monarchy from the tyranny under which they at present live, the Russian people and Government will have a strong feeling that those people must be allowed to determine their fate. I cannot believe that the attitude of the new Government in Russia will be an attitude of the maintenance of tyranny in any region. Then, finally, the hon. Member went on to say— the scale of freeing those peoples. I therefore fail to see in this argument of the hon. Member any reason why the disturbance of the Austrian Empire should not be made. He finally summarises the argument in these words: of any such system of federation as a dream which had been entirely blown to the skies by the coining of the War. In former days, he said, it might have been possible, but, as it was, once the War had started, it would be absolutely impossible to carry out any scheme of that kind. In fact, the hon. Member has answered every one of the arguments which he now uses by anticipation in the book which he wrote two years ago.

It is not purely a question for these peoples themselves, but also a question for the Allies. What arrangements have the Allies made? The hon. Member makes no mention of Italy in his speech, or, at any rate, only a personal allusion to it when he talks of some readjustment in the Trentino. But the Italians in Austria are not going to be satisfied with a mere readjustment in the Trentino. They demand much more than that. We do not know altogether what it is they demand or what it is the Allies have agreed to give them, because we have never had published the Convention of April, 1915, on which the Italians came into the War. I think the time has now come when the Government ought to produce to us that agreement, which has been the subject of comment not only in Russia, but in France. It is absolutely necessary for us to have that Treaty before we can form a complete opinion on the position. Similarly the Roumanians have got something to say. They came into the War on the faith of certain arrangements, and those arrangements make it absolutely impossible not to break up the Austrian Empire, because they demand that 4,000,000 of people living in Transylvania and the southern part of Hungary should be joined by them. They made agreements before they came into the War, to which the Entente Allies were parties. It is necessary to have that treaty also before we can know what has been done. It is quite impossible that either their desires or the desires of the other peoples concerned or our engagements with our Allies can be satisfied if the existence of the Austrian Empire is to be maintained. That view receives a very emphatic confirmation from an article which appears in the "Times" this morning, extracted from the leading Italian newspaper the "Corriere della Sera," which alludes to the Debate in this House on Tuesday last and the declaration by the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. The "Times" say that the "Corriere della Sera" interprets Lord Robert Cecil's declaration in the House of Commons last Tuesday as meaning that the dismemberment of Austria is not one of England's war purposes, and on this assumption it makes a fervid appeal to the Allies for clear definitions and decisions. The "Corriere della Sera" says: to Serbia; secondly, with regard to its attitude on the whole question of the continuation of the Austro-Hungarian, Monarchy. I hope that the doubts which have been created in the minds of the world by coquetting with the idea of a separate peace with Austria, which have received encouragement from the words of the Prime Minister when he talked about our having no quarrel with Austria, and when the Leader of the House said that it would be a great satisfaction to us to detach one of our enemies from the other, will be set at rest. If we succeed in detaching Austria from Germany, it will only be because Germany wishes Austria to be detached. She knows that by maintaining the Austrian Empire her chance of creating the Danubian block and the maintenance of her control over Bulgaria, Turkey, and Asia Minor, also the Bagdad Railway, will be saved by the continued existence of the Austrian Empire. She knows that it will be no longer possible for her to maintain that control if the Austro-Hungarian Empire is broken up. Therefore it is not only in the interests of the peoples of the Austrian Empire who are now suffering under tyranny that it is necessary to break up the Austrian Empire, but it is in the interests of the world at large, and it is in the interests especially of this Commonwealth of Great Britain to prevent the dangers that will arise from continued control by Germany over the route to the East and the route, which is not only the route to India, but the route to Egypt. Therefore I hope that the Foreign Secretary, whom I am happy to see here, will be able to reassure us on those points.

There is now being raised in America for service a large force of Serbo-Croats. Twenty-five thousand of them have already been enrolled. They are supplied with money by the Slav organisations of America. We know that immense sympathy—this is in curious contradiction to what the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Mr. Buxton) has said—has been felt by the peoples of the Austrian Empire with the agitation for its break up. We know this from the mere fact of the enormous numbers of desertions that have taken place from the Austrian Army. Hundreds of thousands of men have deserted and surrendered on the fronts in Russia during the last two years simply because they had no sympathy with the masters for whom they were fighting. During the recent operations in the Carso no fewer than 30,000 Serbo-Croats surrendered from the Austrian Armies, and immediately offered their services to fight in the Serbian Army. They have not been allowed by the Italians to do so. I do not know for what reason. It may be that the view of the Italians may change, but there is no doubt whatever that the existence of sympathy in Austria-Hungary at present with the Slav cause and the break up of the Austrian Empire has received demonstration, and is receiving daily demonstration over and over again. There is the remarkable case in which a very large force of Serbo-Croats were taken prisoners and entered the Russian Army, and took part in the Dobrudja battle. They went in 15,000 srong and came out 3,000 strong, all the rest having sacrificed their lives for the future of their nationality.

With every respect for the views and opinions of my hon. Friend, I find myself quite unable to follow his reasoning. I ask myself is it possible that an hon. Member who advances these views is in touch with the military facts? Does he even profess to relate his views with current events, or is it simply his theory that those who advance idealistic conceptions ought not to be guided by their very imperfect knowledge of the military situation? It seems to me that to treat this in that detached way—that is, detached from the military situation—is to treat it in a way which, without meaning to give offence, I must say is purely doctrinaire, and if one treats this matter as a practical matter, as in my judgment all of us ought to attempt to do, with what knowledge we have, we cannot for a moment regard his suggestion as practicable. I must not trouble the House with the views I expressed at some length last week, but even to-day, in the very document which he adduces as a new fact, there seems to me to be further evidence of the weakness of his case which I endeavoured to point out last week.

Here we have a most interesting manifesto by the respective leaders of the free Serbian nation and of the enslaved portion, I will call it, of the Serbo-Croatian race. They have come together and put their names to a very interesting document setting forth their desires, and, I think for the first time, what they think officially. On the one hand there is the name of one whom I was proud to claim as a very old friend of mine, Mr. Pashitch, the Prime Minister of Serbia, and on the other hand a man from Austria who claims—I am unable to tell with what authority—to represent the united opinion of 9,000,000 Southern-Slavs now living under the Austrian yoke. But take one instance of the difficulty which is revealed. They speak of what they propose in regard to a common flag. Although they are to have a common flag each nation is to have its own flag, and there are to be permanent rights for the separate alphabets and separate religions and also for a different calendar in one part of the State from that in another. Then they cannot find a name for the State itself. It is to be called by the name of three States. It does seem to me, though I have the utmost sympathy with these people, as my hon. Friend will admit, and have had very great sympathy for a long time —quite equal to his—that it is not very hopeful, and it is disappointing even to myself that they are unable to give their dream even a name. The State itself is to be called Serbia-Croatia-Serbinia, and I suppose at some future toast, when the toast will be given say, "Vive la France," we shall also have "Vive la Croatie la Serbie et la Serbinie." It is not a very hopeful effort, but while I think that my hon. Friend's views are out of touch with the military situation—

I do not wish for a moment to deny, and I stated to the House last week, that I did cherish hopes of that kind, but to say that those hopes ought therefore still to be cherished, after the failure to command unitedly on the whole of the Entente the Balkan nations, is merely to disregard the military situation. There are, of course, as my hon. Friend gives his arguments, many things that ought to be said in reply. I wish again to urge that if we can separate our hopes, and the use which we want to make of a great Jugo-Slav race, from the interests of the peoples themselves, then it is perfectly fair and reasonable to base cur hopes on Home Rule. Our aim in this War was to give freedom to the smaller peoples to develop their national life, not necessarily to give them the right to fight each other, which is involved in complete sovereignty. The demand for independence, I have ventured to assert again, is not universal, and if my hon. Friend would read the debates in the Reichsrat he will see that the speeches made are not speeches of men who are really desirous of independence but are concealing it because they are afraid of their skins, but that they are the speeches of men who really hope that in the Danubian Empire organised on lines which they think will be satisfactory, possibly their dreams will be best realised. I will only touch with the utmost brevity the other objections to the hon. Member's scheme. There is the creation of many powerful Ulsters in each State separated from the great Empire.

The existence of the fact has become more evident as time has passed. There is the weakness in the small States as barrier, unless they are supported from outside. Then the restoration of Serbia and Roumania meets the case. Of course the economic disadvantages are only too evident, in these small fiscal unions. We have, of course, the new attitude of the Emperor, and the orientation which is set up in Austria is not to be even military at all, and evidently encourages to some extent the Government, in defiance of the very eager hostility of the German-Magyar element. A short time ago a very conspicuous friend of this country, among the Great Powers, said with some confidence that the Austrian Empire will again be on the friendliest terms with this country. What I would like to touch upon, however, is the impression which has been given in Europe by the Debate in this House during last week, and the rather unfortunate impression, as I think, which has got abroad from the speeches made. It is pointed out that the Declaration of the German Chancellor is ambiguous, and all of us were most surprised at the demand, which was mainly voiced by the Leader of the Liberal Party, that the Chancellor should say "Yes" or "No" to this question—Whether the intention to evacuate Belgium and to restore in every item her sovereignty and independence is what he means? This House would be perfectly unanimous on that point. But the diplomacy on our side is also in a state of ambiguity. The impression is certainly now given that we want annexation, and to some extent I sympathise with that view. We cannot commit ourselves to the formula of no annexation. The impression has gone abroad in an unfortunate form that we want annexations, but that we will not say what annexations we want. The impression has gained ground that we are almost entirely committed to the policy of annexation.

9.0 P.M.

As to diplomacy in war—the Chief of the Staff described it as giving something like 50 per cent. of the elements which make up the conduct of war—an exchange of views at Christmas led to a distinct success on our part. We achieved the approbation at all events of America, and the enemy secured only disapprobation. The recent exchange of views seems to me to have been less successful in one particular episode; it has seemed to lack that policy that was mentioned just now, and which had considerable support some weeks ago—the policy of driving a wedge between Germany and Austria. Some of our own newspapers, one of very great importance, the "Manchester Guardian," dwells upon that, it appears to me, with force—the detaching of Austria as one of the obvious methods of terminating the War and bringing it to a close. I hope that is an exaggeration, and I trust that all this kind of exaggeration can be removed. Quite possibly the Foreign Secretary will take the opportunity of correcting any misapprehensions that have been created. Efficient diplomacy was the diplomacy which made use of Austria, and I do not suppose for a moment that it is the intention to go back on that policy at all. The question is whether we are able to define our attitude in any way which conduces to that result. I do not speak as an opponent of the Government in any way. I am a loyal supporter of the War, but the formula of no annexation would be very difficult indeed, and cannot be applied all round. Is it not possible to make clearer the points on which the Entente, the Allies, are not bent upon annexation? I can quite understand that it would be very inappropriate for the Allies to define their attitude if they are still bent purely upon dictating peace. But I think we are not looking at it on that ground, because both the Prime Minister and the Leader of the House, as well as the Leader of the Liberal party, have been talking about particular terms, and want to know what are the German terms on particular points, following which we might possibly be able to negotiate. If it is, therefore, a matter of negotiation and of terms in the end, can we not press for and demand a definition of the German fundamental points, and make our views somewhat clearer than they have been made, in a negative way, on these points which are not bed-rock terms? We must gradually think of the definition of terms in the sense of democracy, but open diplomacy would be a dangerous thing; it is only on the negative side, and on some points, that we should define our aims. At all events, that would be something, without driving a wedge between Germany and Austria. The Government indicated only one reason why it was not able to commit itself to negative statements about annexation. The only point mentioned was that about Alsace-Lorraine. Although the Prime Minister spoke at some length at Glasgow on other points, he did not give us his view on this, and there has not been anything more definitely announced with regard to it except in the Debate of last Tuesday, when the Minister of Blockade (Lord Robert Cecil) made a brief reference to it which was of a very striking and startling character, and perhaps he would not wish it to be passed without comment. I cannot be quite sure whether the OFFICIAL REPORT does not misrepresent his meaning. According to the OFFICIAL REPORT, the Noble Lord said: are any allies. Those are not avoided in the Parliaments of our Allies, and I do not suppose that our Allies desire that they should be avoided. Those who desire irrational aims are constantly advancing wild schemes as in the case of Serbia, and using the argument, frequently used last week, that we shall otherwise lose the sympathy of the Ally in question It is surely a very dangerous game to make lavish promises because opinion in the Allied country may be divided, and may prove for practical purposes quite different after a time to what is alleged. We have an instance of that in regard to Russia, Have we not regretted promises of the bear's skin which has been often alluded to. Some of us who have advocated policies towards particular purposes have often been told that the bear's skin must not be discussed at all. The desirability of discussing questions of this kind seems to me to be settled by the demands of Russia for a revision of aims and by the need of keeping in line with America, perhaps above all, and by the approach of the Allied Conference, and also by the changed public feeling in this country.

The question of Alsace-Lorraine must, of course, be settled mainly by reference to French feeling and to French opinion, and to French evidence of all kinds, and not of one school only. It cannot be settled by reference to French Chauvinism only, or to French feeling about the War at this moment alone. That is not the principle the Minister of Blockade applied to the question of Serbia, namely, the desire of a section of Serbs for the creation of Jugoslavia, and I am perfectly satisfied, if my Noble Friend meant to say that the principles he applied to Jugoslavia apply also to France. He defined our pledge as a pledge to full restoration and reparation. That is the solid rock on which all our War policy is based. We cannot make it too clear that restoration is a thing we regard as a cardinal aim. Nothing really in the long run gives more confidence to the Allies whose sacrifices are in many ways greater than ours, and that is really where, in my humble judgment about Serbians whom I know fairly-well you will create the most confidence to give them promises which they believe we shall certainly carry out and rest on. The Minister of Blockade defined our aims in a very interesting way further as aims of loyalty and of the desire for stability and of the defeat of militarism in favour of democratisation. But if what he said about loyalty and desire for stability enjoins the unqualified support of the historic policy of Revanche in regard to Alsace-Lorraine, then I hope we shall all agree with that policy. But does it do so? Sympathy for France is, of course, universal among us. No one could exaggerate the admiration we must all feel for the French conduct of the War, both military and civil. I feel this all the more keenly because I have seen something of French politicians, and I have been amongst the French wounded and soldiers in an area quite close to the War. But we are always in danger of regarding a foreign country as always having one harmonious opinion throughout. There are different schools, and always two great opinions. There are signs of strong French opinions against the Revanche policy. There are always vast divisions of opinion in every country, and in taking up one section we may not be doing real service to France. The lesson we have had to learn on that point as to Russia may possibly be repeated as to the Allies. The present depression of the Serbs seems to me to be largely due to the vast and extravagant hopes in which one school of thought represented by my hon. Friend—

I will not go back on the reply I made to my hon. Friend. By the vast and extravagant hopes which have been created by one school of thought regardless of any sense of proportion and accommodation which in my view was necessary to the realisation of those hopes. We do not in the least resent criticism on their part of our aims, or if we do resent it we do not wish to be in the dark as to what are the views held by our Allies. Some of the promises we have made were regretted perhaps since they were made, by a large section of opinion, both public and official. A war of allies always involves extreme difficulties, and to avoid treading on each other's corns does not necessarily ensure that we shall walk harmoniously together. We have not asked for any promises of this extraordinary kind in regard to acquisitions which we have made ourselves or aims which we have. Take the matter of the colonies. With regard to that, the Prime Minister did not say that that was a thing to be sought by us in conjunction with the Allies. He went further and said it was a thing to be settled by the conference. If Alsace-Lorraine is in the end to go back to France, sans phrase. it will appear that the world has learned nothing since the days of Louis XIV. A compromise, surely, is the thing ultimately to be aimed at—a compromise either by autonomy or by partition. I have found French politicians who intensely agreed with that view though they were partisans. Our promise, of course, has had the effect of encouraging a certain school, but it also has the effect of encouraging the extremist school amongst the enemy, and that, I suppose, is not a thing which on the whole the present Government desire. An unconditional promise is surely no compliment to France. It implies that the people to whom it is made are not reasonable or willing to look at things from a general point of view! It is surely not our business to be more Franch than the French! The strength of the position of France is that they have the intense sympathy of America. Their very great desire is to be in harmony with American views, and American views are intensely with France.

But surely America, as has been pointed out, desires that all these questions should be submitted to the international principle. I see that the "New Republic," that American organ which, being in close touch with high quarters there, is of such very great importance, acclaims the Glasgow speech of the Prime Minister, particularly on the ground that it indicated adhesion to the international factor. But it does, I must confess, really seem to me that if we were in a position to dictate peace ultimately with total victory, and to snatch the whole of Alsace-Lorraine from one side to the other, we should be almost better without that victory. The annexation of Alsace-Lorraine would not in that case be aimed at as a settlement, but as a punishment. As we have learnt from Metternich, you can have a great punishment of a great settlement, but you cannot have both. There are, however, some extremely appropriate things recorded in the events of 1870 as to the views then taken about Alsace-Lorraine. I am thinking for the moment of those recorded by Mr. Gladstone. What he said was not only appropriate, but amazingly appropriate, to the features of the situation, but, above all, of interest because it applied to this actual question itself. The House will not, perhaps, blame me if for a moment I repeat the very interesting words Mr. Gladstone then wrote in urging upon the Germans not complete acquisition, but the utilisation of some form, both in the interests of the world and of themselves. He said they had a not in dispute. Do not let us be blind to the fact that the French Chauvinists are not basing the claim on self-determination.

There is an interesting article on the subject to-day in the "Times" by a leading Alsatian, who urges that the claim is based on honour and dignity. But the safest ground that he urges is that which is based on equilibrium, justice, and liberty. There he is on safe ground, and it is in accord with the American principle of self-determination. Members of this House who have been in Alsace know that there is a very great difference of opinion there. I myself remember visiting a friend near Strasburg who was busily working among those beautiful villages among the lower slopes of the Vosges to induce the people to learn French, and was in despair at the hopelessness of the task In West Lorraine the case is quite different. But everywhere you have a section whose attitude is changing and was changing before the War—we do not know what has happened since—because of the economic benefit brought by German rule. My right hon. friend the Member for Perth made a reference to what I have said about Austria. I should like to remind him of what he said about Alsace-Lorraine in an article in "New Europe." Anyone who has motored along the frontier and has crossed and recrossed between French and German territory in Lorraine or Alsace will know and understand that position perfectly well, because, as you will cross and recross, you notice the remarkable prosperity and cleanliness of the villages on the Eastern side.

The concrete ground on which the French policy is supported in this country is that it is related to a quite different question—the economic question involved in the coal and iron fields of Lorraine. We know that German science has made of them one of the chief foundations of German prosperity. The eagerness of France to recover them is not at all surprising, and for all of us the idea of reducing Germany's economic strength has very great attraction. But if we base our hopes of future stability on that policy let us have the honesty to say so, and, at all events, let us have the intellectual honesty to examine it very closely. At any rate, Russia will not help us to carry out that policy, nor will America, and without America we shall get no progress in international relations. That progress is described in various ways as a league of peace to prevent war. It is in reality the chief hope of the future, and to which the Allies have committed themselves in their reply to America last January. The Foreign Secretary has specially blessed the idea, and he, I am sure, desires that every possible ground of friction shall be removed in the settlement which may injure the possible success of such a combination to prevent war. Surely it is really on that project—the project of an international league—on the satisfaction of local feelings, and on the removal of grounds for revenge, much rather than on any sentimental idea of dignity, honour, or revenge, that the great hope of stability for this or any other question must rest.

I shall not attempt to follow my hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Mr. Buxton) through the entire course of his speech. I wish to deal with certain extremely important points which he raised in the earlier part of it, and I shall attempt to do so by attaching them to the general Debate upon the so-called new situation in Germany, which took place last Thursday. The two speeches we have heard so far to-night have been devoted mainly to Austria-Hungary and the Balkans, and my hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk told us, last Thursday, if not tonight, that there is a certain school of thought in this country which proclaims that Austria is the chief enemy. I have never yet seen any evidence whatever of that school. To suggest that there is any serious school of politicians in this country devoted to the thesis that Austria is the chief enemy is a pure figment of the imagination. What do we, who have attempted to bring forward the importance of the Austro-Hungarian situation in the War, mean by that? We have never suggested that Germany is not the chief enemy. We have never said anything that could lead anybody to suppose that we regarded Austria-Hungary as such a strength to the Central European Alliance that she must be regarded as even of anything like equal power with Germany. What we have always maintained is that British detachment from the affairs of Central and Eastern Europe—the mere geographical distance of this island from Austria-Hungary and the Balkans—had tended to create in this country a state of mind, based largely on ignorance and indifference, which was highly dangerous, in. view of the position of Austria-Hungary in the ranks of our enemies. Therefore, we have devoted some time and energy to the attempt to provide the British public with facts about the Austro-Hungarian situation—about the part which Austro-Hungarian policy has played in Central Europe and the Balkans as a kind of advance guard of German policy proper. We have been accused, therefore, on the one hand of over-emphasising the importance of Austria-Hungary, and, on the other hand, of being too vindictive against her.

Before I examine these two charges, I want to add a word to what was said the other night about the general German situation, because it is more and more clear that it is no use discussing the situation in Vienna unless you read it in the light of Berlin. The German situation is now the most interesting in Europe because Germany now shows the first sign of the breaking up of her military machine. I do not mean her military power to inflict defeats. I do not mean to suggest that she is at the end of her resources, but we are entitled to say that her principal resource, which is the unity and determination of her people, is beginning to wear thin. That is the true meaning of the Reichstag crisis, and I think if we attempt to read any narrower meaning into it we shall make a serious mistake; and most hon. Members on the other side who laid such store by certain speeches delivered in the Reichstag, and particularly on the Reichstag Resolution in favour of peace must remember that, not only, as the hon. Member for Leicester said, is the-Reichstag a perfectly impotent body in relation to the Government of Germany, but the majority itself which passed that Resolution is composed of elements which would disintegrate the moment they were brought to the test of facts. I shall only adduce one point in support of that statement. That majority was composed of Social Democrats, both Majority and Minority, and of their general attitude nobody in this House now has any doubt. They are two different shades, roughly speaking, of the same opinion, and although the Majority Socialists have rallied to the support of the Imperial German Government, so, of course, have our own Labour party, and when we criticise the Majority Socialists for doing so we have got to remember that the whole German people, and the Socialists of course included, have accepted a position of political dependence upon their own Government for the appraisement of a given political situation which robs them of all power to judge events; and, therefore, when the Majority Socialists joined the Government they joined it in the full belief, as the hon. Member for Leicester said the other day, that they were assisting in a war of defence.

But disintegration is now at work upon the argument which the German people and German politicians use in support of their thesis, that they were defending the soil of Germany in going to war. I think that the revelation made by Herr Haase in the Reichstag must have been known for some time in Parliamentary circles of Germany, and that it began to lessen the support not only of Minority but even of Majority Socialists. Setting aside that, we come to the Centre party, the great Catholic party with a very mixed membership, but on the subject of peace terms a considerable section of which still hankers after a certain kind of annexation, while another branch, which belongs to the more democratic side, actually repudiates all annexation whatever. But we have to remember that their view of what democratic reform means in Germany is very different from that taken by the Socialists, and as the two questions of peace and Parliamentary reform are so inextricably intermingled in German politics one cannot treat of one without treating of the other. Therefore, we must remember that if we say that sincere democratic reform in Germany must be the preliminary of peace, we must not expect that to come too soon. When we come to the third party, which passed that Resolution we find it composed chiefly of German jingoes who represent the big armament firms and the big iron industries of the Rhine. They are called National Liberals, but were long ago corrupted by Bismarck out of their Liberalism, and they adopted a violent form of Nationalism. Therefore, with all this in mind, we must conclude that the moment you attempt to translate that Resolution of the Reichstag into definite terms of policy you will find the majority that supported it will disintegrate.

I do not say there is nothing to be gained from a close study of the new Ger- man situation. I think there is, but I think the pressure has come from below, and that we shall not find the Reichstag of its own motion and its own power achieving any great reform in the government of Germany; but the combined pressure of war and the general uneasiness created in the German population, combined with the removal of the old, overhanging Russian danger, which was nevermore than a bogey, may throughout, the coming winter create such a different situation that a democratic Germany in 1918 or 1919 may appear a possibility, which it is not now. And if we have a democratic Germany, our whole attitude to every European problem would immediately change. Our whole attitude to the Austro-Hungarian problem and the Balkan problem must necessarily change, because in our attempt to arrive at a clear conception of what a Central European policy means under its present German guise, we see perfectly clearly—and it is one of the commonplaces of the War now—that Austria-Hungary, both in a military sense and in an economic and a political sense, is entirely under the German fist. You may say there are signs of her attempting to shake herself free of the German control, but we cannot accept the first sign of uneasiness in Austria-Hungary as deliberate will to leave the German alliance, and as long as that alliance is maintained the will of the stronger partner prevails, and if that will remains as in the past, and is not changed into true democratic intention, you cannot accept the situation as satisfactory if Central Europe emerges from the War as practically an entity. As I have said, some of us have devoted a good deal of time to the study of the Austro-Hungarian situation, chiefly on the ground that we felt that the public at large in this country was inclined to underestimate its importance.

I am not going to enter into polemics with the hon. Member for North Norfolk as to the exact meaning and intention of the speeches delivered in the Reichsrat. I agree with the interpretation placed upon them by the hon. Member for Inverness Burghs rather than by my hon. Friend, but that, of course, time will very speedily settle, and we are only wasting words by debating it here to-night. Those speeches; show what a ferment is going on in Austria, and they entitle my hon. Friend to say that the spirit of nationality is awake in the Austrian races which we have never seen since 1848; but they do not entitle him to say that those nationalities, if left within a Federal Austria, would prevail against the German Magyar domination, and it is under that domination that the policy of the dismemberment of Austria-Hungary has arisen.

I should like to describe the activities of the main advocates of this policy before the War. There are two friends of mine outside this House whose names have been associated with Austro-Hungarian affairs for many years past. One of them was in Vienna during the second Balkan War, and, having gone through the first Balkan War, he came back to Vienna and interviewed every leading Austrian whom he could find, both members of the Ministry and public officials, as well as leaders of public opinion, historians and members of Parliament. What he said to them was this, "You have put your money on the wrong horse, and unless you realise it quickly you will find a new Slavonic revival all over South-Eastern Europe which will lead to the disintegration of the Dual Monarchy." He was aware that the Archduke who was assassinated was associated with the only form of racial reconciliation proposed in recent times by any responsible statesman, and he used that argument to push his Austrian friends in the direction of supporting the Archduke's policy because he was a friend of Austria-Hungary, and he did so for that reason and no other.

But the turning point came with the outbreak of war, and with the assassination of the Archduke was removed the only leading man who was prepared to go forward with that policy of racial reconciliation. That changed the whole situation, and they said then there was no course open but to allow racial disintegration to come to a head. We do not say that the British Government should come forward and say in the face of Europe and our Allies, "We are out for the dismemberment of Austria-Hungary." I am not aware that any serious exponent of public policy has attempted to extract that form of declaration from the Government. What we do say is that in the past the accident of the nineteenth century history has drawn certain frontiers in Central Europe which divide members of the same race from one another, and are you or are you not prepared to give those races the same chance of uniting which you gave to Italy in the nineteenth century? Are you prepared to say that the different races of Austria-Hungary shall have a chance of declaring their own will in the matter? If you are, then the whole Debate about the dismemberment of Austria-Hungary becomes purely academic, and you may ask, Why did we raise it? We have not raised it as a desirable policy in itself, but this is your doctrine of nationality, and you say you are going to apply it, and when you say that we assume that you are sincere, and if you are going to apply it to Poland and the three separate sections of the Polish race, why are you not going to apply to the rest of Austria-Hungary the same principle? That is the only way in which we raise this question of the dismemberment of Austria-Hungary. We believe that the doctrine of freedom and nationality espoused by the British Government means in practice the dismemberment of the Dual Monarchy, and we openly proclaim our belief.

Our critics often quote against us the dictum of Palacky, the Bohemian historian:—"If Austria did not exist, we should have to create her." But we must reply that the War has destroyed the whole meaning of his words: and we may add that the policy of Vienna before the War proved that the Habsburgs had given up the attempt to make Austria that happy home of many races of which Palacky dreamed. The Czech patriot looked to a liberal Austria as the great patron and protector of Slavs against the disciplined brutality of Prussia and the terrible oppression of Tsarist Russia. He hoped to transform Austria-Hungary into such a state as would give her races the opportunity of a free life. I wish to lay some emphasis on one of these points. The hon. Gentleman quoted a passage from the speech of the Minister of Blockade referring to our attitude towards the demands which were likely to be made by our Allies, and having said that, broadly speaking, we should be bound by the desires of the French, the Noble Lord went on to say that that was particularly true in the case of Serbia, "We do not pledge ourselves to the particular form of liberation which was advocated by the Conference." I am not prepared to ask for anything more, if the Government stand firmly by that declaration they made in their famous Note in reply to President Wilson. With this the so-called advocates of dismemberment of Austria-Hungary are absolutely satisfied.

There is a further point of greater importance than anything that has yet been said, and that is our whole attitude to the political side of the War. I said when I rose that the War is steadily moving out of its military atmosphere into a political atmosphere. I do not mean that there are not military events before us even greater and more stupendous than any we have yet seen, but I do mean that the political issues of the War now loom so largely on the European horizon that no nation and no Government can afford any further to neglect them. I do not say that the Government have been neglecting them. It is perfectly obvious, in so far as they have already met the Russian invitation to a general conference on war aims, and in so far as they have already had a Balkan Conference in Paris, about which I hope that my right hon. Friend will be able to tell us something this evening; and in so far as the Front Bench, I think, have welcomed these attempts made in the House of Commons to discuss these political issues in the War—all these things show that the Government are alive to the fact that political discussion is of vital importance. They must go a little further. I wonder if the right hon. Gentleman will be able to tell us that the Government are going into the larger conference on war aims summoned by the Russian Government, with the intention of squaring all our secret agreements with our various Allies with our public professions. There is a great deal more interest in the country in subjects of that kind than the amount of time which the House of Commons devotes to them would lead anyone to suppose, and when my hon. Friend the Member for Inverness Burghs says that question, like our treaty with Roumania, or the Italian Convention of 27th April, 1915, or any other secret agreement disposing of territory or making unrevealed economic arrangements have been widely discussed, not only in enemy countries, but in all the Allied countries except Great Britain he lays his finger upon one of the weakest links in the Government armoury. It is now a commonplace, owing to the magnitude of the War, that war is much more truly a national affair, and that the whole people are concerned in it in a more intimate and definite way than has ever been proved the case in past history. If that is so, we cannot expect to maintain the morale of the civilian population at the height at which you would wish it to be maintained unless you satisfy them at these crucial moments. The civilian population are really beginning to ask themselves these questions about the War, and you must satisfy them that, broadly speaking, the generous aspirations which sent the voluntary Army of Great Britain into the field will not be lost sight of by the Government when they come to the Peace Congress.

The general state of opinion all over Europe makes this matter of the attitude of the British Government, and particularly the desirability of the Government taking the country more into its confidence very important. We know quite well that the present situation in Germany is so serious that the moment the present Chancellor feels himself firmly in the saddle he will almost certainly make some advance towards peace. He will almost certainly by one means or other send out a vague and sketchy outline of the terms which Germany is prepared to discuss. We know, of course, that terms of that sort have already been sent out by Germany in a more or less indefinite and in an entirely unofficial form, but I am quite sure that the next time they make a move they will make it so definitely and so cast their offer that it will be capable of discussion in Allied countries, and, in view of the fact that they will send it to the Russian Government and count upon the Russian Government to publish it, I think the British Government would be well advised to take the country more into its confidence. That is the only way to defeat those German intrigues of which there is very little in this country and to defeat that which the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs dislikes, namely, the kind of arguments so often put forward from the Benches opposite. I do not say that when we come to peace terms we shall not find the great body of the people will not be in favour of the kind of democratic terms which have been put forward by hon. Members opposite, but I do say that the Government will find themselves in a very unfortunate position unless they take in hand now the education of the people, or if they leave the field almost entirely free from unofficial advocates of peace terms. The most bigoted and the most ferocious of those advocates have been the very persons whom the Government in other ways have attempted to discourage, but having failed to discourage them it is the duty of the Government to promote the greatest possible public discussion on terms of peace which they can publicly defend not only before Europe but before our new Allies the United States of America.

I do not want to shorten the Debate, because I admit it is of the greatest importance, and still less do I desire myself to be a contributor on any large scale to the discussion begun to-night by my hon. Friend the Member for Inverness (Mr. Bryce). We have just listened to a very able speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Perth (Mr. F. Whyte). I think from his point of view nothing could show more clearly how much thought he has devoted to the great topic on which he spoke to us, and he is such a master of lucid exposition and clear and concise statement that he left very little doubt—no doubt at all in the minds of those who listened to him—as to what is the general trend of his policy. I find myself in great sympathy with my hon. Friend. The whole spirit that animated his speech appealed to me. But when he turns to this Bench, and says we should go into the arena and discuss matters which are not, remember, our matters alone, but are matters of all the Allies, side by side with whom we are at this moment fighting, and when he asks us to make elaborate declarations of policy in excess of those which have already been made, I am not sure that he is giving us advice which it would be judicious for us to follow.

The broad principles which ought to animate the British Government have already been expounded by the late Prime Minister, by the present Prime Minister, by the late Foreign Secretary, and by other Gentlemen who have held high office during the three years that the War has lasted, and I do not believe that there is very much doubt as to the broad principles which have animated all those who have held high office in this country since the beginning of August, 1914. But how you are going to apply the broad principles depends upon endless circumstances of great complexity, circumstances turning upon what goes on in Allied countries, and what goes on in enemy countries. They depend upon the fortunes of war, upon the changing circumstances of military and naval conditions. How can you go into details? How can you anticipate now the work that will have to be done by the final Peace Congress that brings this War to a conclusion? I do not think it is possible to do it. Every statement made by a responsible Minister is treated as a kind of pledge as to the precise and detailed course which is to be pursued by the Government of which he is a Member when the time for a final settlement arrives. That is a very dangerous way of treating these kind of statements. You call for them, my hon. Friend who has just sat down did, others do, the newspapers call for precise statements as to what you are going to do in this part of Europe or in that part of Europe; what is the proper method of treating the Jugoslav question; what is the proper method of treating Austria; is it to be that advocated three years ago by my hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Mr. Noel Buxton) or the one he advocates now, or is it to be the one advocated by my hon. Friend the Member for Inverness (Mr. Alan Bryce) arising out of the duel which took place between him and the Member for North Norfolk—the duel which began this Debate—or some other scheme to which he may have committed himself at an earlier stage? You cannot deal with these problems in the precise spirit with which you can deal with a historic problem of the past. None of us have the power to perceive the circumstances in which the world will find itself when these problems have finally to be decided, unless we can arrogate to ourselves the gift of prophecy. How then can anybody from this bench venture to commit himself and his country, and, perhaps, in a certain sense, the Allied countries with whom this country is working, to precise statements upon these immensely important questions? You cannot do it, and I think I should be doing a very ill service to the country were I to attempt it now.

The Debate began to-night by, as I said just now, a dispute between my hon. Friend the Member for Inverness Burghs and my hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk as to the precise method in which the Austrian Empire was to be treated. What we desire, I believe, on every side of the House is that the nationalities composing that heterogeneous State should be allowed to develop on their own lines, to carry out their own civilisation, and determine the course of which their development should take place. That is the broad principle. But some of my hon. Friends are not content with a statement of that sort. They desire me to say, "How do you mean to do it—by joining Serbia with Croatia? Do you mean to do it by separating parts of Bohemia and parts of the Slovak country from Hungary?" Surely it would be folly for a Foreign Minister, dealing with events which are still distant I fear—I mean the peace discussion—to discuss details of that sort.

It would be folly for us to go further than we have already gone. I hope that will satisfy my hon. Friend. At any rate I do not propose to do it to-night. We entered this War in the early days, as everybody in this House knows, with little in our minds besides the necessity of defending Belgium and the necessity of preventing France from being crushed before our eyes. Those were the two motives that brought us into the War. Nobody with the smallest knowledge of the facts supposed that when Sir Edward Grey and the Government, of which he was a member, made that fateful declaration on Monday, the 3rd August, there was in the mind, either of the people who made that declaration or of those who listened to it, the smallest thoughts of the great problems which the course of the War has opened out before us. Only this is clear: we did not enter this War for any selfish purpose.

We hear a phrase now echoed and reechoed, "No Imperialist policy; no war indemnities." We certainly did not go into this War for what is called an "Imperialist policy"; we certainly did not go into this War to get indemnities. We went into it, and we have remained in it, for purposes which no one who understands public opinion in this country will doubt for a moment are really unselfish. I do not think, therefore, we have got anything from that point of view to give up. We stand in a different position from many of our Allies, simply because it has never entered into the thoughts, and could never enter into the thoughts, of any British statesman, from whatever party he would be drawn, that he was going into this War to increase British possessions on the Continent of Europe, Free from any taint of a suggestion of such policy even in the minds of our bitterest enemies as is America herself, that gives both to America and ourselves a position which can hardly be arrogated to themselves by any other of the combatants engaged in this War. I do not think really it would be wise were I to enter, following the course of my hon. Friend who preceded me in this Debate, into those prophecies of what might be done, should be done, or could be done.

We all wish to see Europe come out of this struggle not only freer, but more stable. We want to see it come out of this struggle with fewer of those causes which divide mankind, acting as a perpetual irritant, acting upon national pride, national ambition, or national vanity. We want to diminish the future prospect of war by diminishing the number of reasons which drive nations into war. We are all agreed that by satisfying legitimate national aspirations, you will go a great way to carry out that idea. Is it wise to do more than lay down these broad general principles of policy? I greatly doubt whether it is. I believe that we who, for the moment, at all events, are responsible for conducting the international affairs of this country would only hamper ourselves and our successors by precise statements upon this or upon other points. Some things that have been called in question to-night seem to me to be very clear. I do not see how anybody who has supported France, and believed in France, through all these years of war can doubt that we must go on supporting France, believing in France, and helping France to restore herself to what she was before the attack engineered against her by Bismarck in 1870. You may be divided on this question of Alsace and Lorraine, but the broad fact remains that these provinces were left from her by force. At no moment since 1871 has the passionate desire of those who have been taken from France and those Frenchmen from whom Alsace and Lorraine were taken for reunion between those two countries been diminished. If we are to reform the map of Europe, if the result of this War is to be—and, as I hope will be—that the map of Europe will be a far more stable map than any congress has yet left it, can anybody doubt that one of the arrangements of territory that must take place is the restoration to France of that of which France was violently robbed forty years ago?

I shall be accused, perhaps, of having violated my own canons in going thus far, but I do think that that stands in a different category from those interesting speculations which my hon. Friends have indulged in to-night with regard to the more Eastern portion of the European Continent. But at any rate that is more obviously connected with recent historical events; it comes more immediately or directly under our notice. It seems to me to raise a question of which the solution is quite obvious, and I therefore do not think that I have done any harm in expressing at all events, my own opinion, which is that while France fights for Alsace and Lorraine we should support her. France, of course, is not fighting for Alsace and Lorraine alone. France is fighting for her very existence; but the struggle which has been forced upon her includes, and cannot help including, this other problem so intimately connected with her recent history.

Therefore, I say, while we are determined to see that, as far as in us lies, France shall not be crushed, that carries with it a corollary if, as I believe, the War is a successful War, the legitimate aspiration to a restoration of that which was France's is a matter in which we are closely and nearly concerned, although, of course, we have, so to speak, no selfish or self-centred interest in such a happy consummation. It is disinterested, but I do not think, on that account, it is less worthy of the attention of this House. Nobody can, of course, doubt that the questions which have been raised to-night are, at this moment, in one form or another, present in and weighing on the minds of every statesman in Europe, or, in other words, occupying the thoughts of the whole civilised world almost to the exclusion of every other subject of interest. It is therefore folly, I think, to ask an assembly like this to be silent upon these great themes. I should never ask my hon. Friends to abstain from expressing, with due caution and due reserve, their hopes and their beliefs upon these all-important topics, and certainly, if all the speeches delivered upon such subjects rose to the level of some of those we have heard to-night, the Debates here would be well worthy of the attention of the country at large, and of public opinion among our friends and Allies abroad. But I hope that the interest which we all feel, almost to an unprecedented extent, in these problems will never take the form of asking the Government to go into details about future arrangements which do not depend—remember that they do not depend, and they cannot depend—upon either this Government or the Government of any other single State.

That is the essence of the question. How the balance of forces will go when peace comes to be seriously discussed—not by those who mean to talk about it for the purpose of disintegrating the alliance of the Allies, but for the more legitimate purpose of really bringing to an end the present horrors under which the world is groaning—when that time comes the result will not merely depend upon the speculation or the wishes which we singly or severally express, whether as Members of the House or as members of the community, on what this or that nation particularly desires to obtain as the result of great forces which this War has set loose. It is impossible for any man to prophesy with confidence in what form the play of those forces will ultimately mould the destinies of mankind; and to ask us to lay down precisely that upon which we shall insist, or that which, without insisting upon, we shall press; or that which we shall, without pressing for it, like to see; or that which we shall view with perfect indifference—to ask us, in other words, to classify the things, and to describe the precise amount of effort and sacrifice we are going to make to gain each of these things, that, I think, is really to ask the Government to play a rôle which no Government can play with success. We are dealing with forces far too great and far too complex to be dealt with in that manner. What we have got to do is to make clear to the world, if anybody desires to be convinced of it, that we are not fighting for fighting's sake—that we desire peace as earnestly as any community of those who are now suffering under the losses, the burdens, and the tragedies of the War.

The peace we desire is one which shall descend, which will not last merely till people have half-forgotten the horrors and the exhaustion of this War, but a peace which shall be based partly, we may trust, upon the growth of international morality, partly, we may hope, on an improvement of international relations, which will make the gratuitous breaking of the world's peace a crime for which the criminal is punished, but also, and beyond all that, which shall involve such a rearrangement, such a modification of the political forces in Europe that there will not be a balance of power in precisely the old eighteenth-century sense of the word, but such an arrangement among the communities in Europe as will make it far more difficult for the disturbers of the peace to find a soil in which to sow their bitter and fatal seed, and will make that seed itself much less productive of more disastrous crops than has been the case in our own lifetime and again in the lifetime of our grandfathers and great-grandfathers. How that end is to be pursued exactly, how you are going to deal with, such a great and an ancient monarchy as Austria, how Austria and Germany are going to deal with their own internal problems, which they must settle, not anybody else—nobody can effectively discuss those questions across the floor of the House at the present stage of the War.

One word let me say—I am reminded of it by a phrase I let fall myself a moment ago—about the democratisation of Germany. We all hope that the autocracy in Germany will give place to free government, as we understand free government, and to Parliamentary institutions, as we understand Parliamentary institutions. As has been stated by high authorities, it is hard to see how you can negotiate for a stable peace except you find a community to deal with based upon a popular will, and a popular will which is not corrupted by those sinister designs of universal domination. That does not mean that anybody is fool enough to suppose that he can impose upon Germany a constitution made outside Germany. Germany must work out her own salvation. You do not mend matters by imposing constitutions, even if you had the power to impose them, even if to-morrow some great military catastrophe in Germany were to put the Allied Powers in a position to say to them, "You may like it or dislike it, but you shall adopt a constitution which suits our views of freedom, our views of the Government which a civilised state ought to possess." That has never succeeded, and it never will succeed. Nations must work out their own scheme of liberty for themselves according to their own ideals, and based upon their own history—what has actually occurred to them in the past, and what their hopes suggest to them for the future.

But if it be true that the great power of German Imperialism depends on the belief driven into the German nation by the wars of 1866 and 1870—that only under an Imperial system can Germany be great, powerful, rich—then it may be, if experience shows that Imperial system can produce not merely a triumph at one time, but also inevitably leads to corresponding disaster at another, that these views, which found such powerful expression in Germany in 1848, which animated all the best of the German, thinkers for more than a generation, before the Bismarckian domination, will revive with new lustre and with new strength, and Germany, with all her powers of organisation and all her inherited cultivation, will be added to those nations which, before this War broke-out, could hardly conceive that a universal war of this sort could be deliberately provoked, in order to further the commercial or the political interests of any single community. When Germany comes, on a level with countries like the United States, or like Great Britain in that, respect, we may hope that, at all events, one of the great causes of the disturbance of peace will be for ever eliminated from European history.

I do not know who among those who have thought most over these questions will say for a moment that, looking at the internal condition of Germany, so far as we are allowed to see it at present, the ideas of which I have been speaking are really growing in such fashion as to raise legitimate hopes that in our lifetime we shall see them established. I make no such prophecy, but I am quite sure if they are not established, the security of Europe will not be established either. Until Germany is either made powerless or made free, I do not believe the peace of Europe can be regarded as secure. Nothing is clearer to my mind than that if our object be to carry out that policy, the immediate duty before us is not to discuss in detail what kind of terms of peace we would like when the War comes to an end, but to fight on the War with all the strenuous vigour which we can command.

What is the corollary—the conclusion of this particular argument I have laid before the House? The conclusion is that if this War ends with a German peace, the German peace will only be the prelude to a new European war. If it does not end with a German peace, if it ends with a peace which commends itself to the consciences of America and Great Britain—I mention these two countries because they are the only two who have no selfish European interests to serve in this matter—if it ends with a peace which commends itself to the consciences, let us say, of America and Great Britain and the neutral countries and those of our Allies who are fighting, as they are, for their existence, then it will not be a German peace, but it will be a peace which will probably be in the end a blessing to Germany as well as to the rest of mankind. In any case, it will be a peace of which there is some chance, some probability, that it will last, not merely beyond the immediate memory of the generation which has waged this horrible War, but will last until we have reached a stage in international development which will make any recurrence of these horrors unthinkable by our children.

I think the House has listened to the most significant speech made by a British Minister since the 4th August, 1914. There were many passages in the speech which the right hon. Gentleman has just delivered which recall the atmosphere in which this country was induced to take part in the War. We have during these intervening years heard many other rallying cries and many other catch words, and this country has been called upon to spend its life and its strength for objects very different from those which many Members of this House had in view when they ratified the decision of the Government to enter the War in 1914. The speech which we heard to-night from the Foreign Secretary is significant not only in recalling that atmosphere, but as a stepping stone, if I may use the phrase, on the load to peace. I think it is important that we should have from the Foreign Secretary this declaration against any precise statement on the part of Ministers either of this or of any country as to the objects for which we must continue to fight. The right hon. Gentleman, to my mind, has well indicated that it will not be by the statements of ministers that the result of this War will be determined, but by facts, or to use a phrase which he himself has employed, the balance of the great forces which this War has let loose. It is these things which will determine the issue, and in these circumstances it has always seemed to me to be somewhat idle to call upon statements from right hon. Gentlemen on this subject or from ministers in our Allied countries as to what objects, definite, precise objects must be achieved before this War can come to an end. The right hon. Gentleman has, it is true, been somewhat inconsistent, as he himself perceives, with the canons which he has laid down. He made an exception, but I do not think that even that exception detracts from the real value of the substantial contribution which he has now made towards making peace. He has sketched to us the objects which are to be attained in this peace which is to end the War—that it must result in the growth of international morality, an improvement in the international relations, and a rearrangement of political forces which will not result in a balance of power, as understood in the nineteenth century, but in such an arrangement as will make such disturbances more difficult to bring about. I think that these were the ideals which were before the statemen and the people of this country in August, 1914, I believe that these are the ideals which appeal at the present moment to the people of everyone of the billigerent countries.

These things are achievable. The little more or the little less of territorial adjustment remains little. If the spirit and the atmosphere which the achievements of these objects will bring about result from this, then it will be a comparatively simple matter to adjust the territorial differences which will after the War remain outstanding. It is, I think, a matter of the utmost satisfaction that we should hear a statement of this kind from the right hon. Gentleman, a statesman of his experience, occupying as he now does the position of Foreign Secretary in this country. I think that it is a happy omen for the future, not only of this Empire but for the whole of Western Europe to say that only in such a peace as that can we look for the salvation of Western Europe. It is a gratifying thing that we hear no more talk now about the knock-out blow. That is a dead language in every country. We are now talking of readjustment, of negotiations, of the balance of forces. These are the things which we should remember, and the spirit which this indicates is of the utmost importance for a permanent peace. A permanent peace is vital to every one of the belligerent countries. No settlement which leaves open the possibility of in future such conflagrations as that through which we have passed during the last three years, no settlement so called, can have anything but futile results for Western Europe. There are people who talk in this country as if there were an inevitable and inveterate enmity established between this country and the German Empire. It is foolish blindness so to talk. If there is to be any future for Western Europe that language must be aban- doned. If we are to look forward to a renewal of this strife, which during the three years has caused such a loss of life and treasure to all the Western Powers of Europe, then the Western States of Europe cease to be the standard-bearers of civilisation; their glory has departed; the future is transferred to others. It must go across the Atlantic. And, merely for reasons of self-preservation, apart altogether from the considerations of higher policy and international morality, the establishment of peace such as the right hon. Gentleman has sketched is vital not only to the future welfare, but to the future existence of every one of the Western States.

I am certain that everybody in the House was very much relieved to listen to the kind of speech which the Secretary for Foreign Affairs delivered. To my mind it compared favourably with the speech of the Leader of the House on Thursday last. I would not have intervened in this Debate were not the continuance of this War an extremely serious matter. No one could have spoken with greater emphasis as to the seriousness of the War than the Leader of the House in his capacity as Chancellor of the Exchequer, for he has made it quite plain to us that we are on the road to ruin. For the continuance of this War does not mean only financial and economic loss, but a vast loss of life, that must leave us in an impoverished and almost hopeless position. It should be remembered that any successful effort to drive the Germans out of France and Belgium must inevitably be accompanied by the destruction of the country occupied. If I offered any criticism of the speech of the hon. Member for Perth, it would be that he seemed to be utterly oblivious of the fact that time is of very great importance in arriving at a settlement of the affairs of Europe. I cannot say that I am satisfied with what my hon. Friends below the Gangway have said in regard to the state of public opinion in Germany with regard to peace. It appears to me that it is not the peace party which is in the ascendant, but the war party, in the Government of Germany. Nevertheless, I do not think it can be denied that the Resolution passed at the Reichstag does mean something. It means that a considerable number of persons in Germany are exceedingly dissatisfied that the war party should be in ascendant, and that they would like to make a reasonable peace. It seems to me to be the duty of this assembly to do everything in its power to strengthen the hands of the peace party in Germany rather than the hands of the war party. A great number of the speeches made in this country have not had that effect. I deprecate such references as those to "rats" and "rabbits," for they do absolutely nothing but harm. Ideals such as that held out by the right hon. Gentleman opposite as able to be realised, are not likely to come into existence until after peace is signed. Germany, no more than any other country, is likely to form a constitution under the threat of successful military attack from a foreign nation. I have always felt that those of us who look forward to this Germany must look forward to it coming into existence after, and not before, peace. I want to draw the attention of the Foreign Secretary to a passage in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Fife (Mr. Asquith), made on Thursday last as follows:

"I want to put a very plain and specific question with regard to that. Is Germany prepared not only to evacuate Belgium, not only to make full reparation for the colossal mischief and damage which has accompanied her devastating occupation of the country and her practical enslavement, so far as she could carry it out, of large portions of the population; is she prepared not only to do that—this is a very plain question, which admits of a very simple answer—but to restore to Belgium, not the pretence of liberty, but a complete, an unfettered, and an absolute independence? I should like to know the German Chancellor's answer to that question—not the answer of the Reichstag. I ask the Chancellor that. I ask him now, as far as I may. It is a very simple question, and it is one of many other concrete questions I could put. It is a question that does not stand alone.—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th July, 1917, col. 1508.]

I believe there is not a single Member who does not endorse that question and who does not want to know the answer before he enters upon any negotiations for peace. I imagine we should also want a similar assurance with regard to the evacuation of France, the evacuation of Serbia, Montenegro and Roumania. The question I want to know is this, Why cannot the Government of this country, acting in unison with the Governments of our Allies, put that question formally to Germany through the proper diplomatic channels? Speeches, after all, made in this House or in the Reichstag or any legislative assembly by statesmen do not require a categorical answer from those in other countries. It seems to me it would be a very material advantage if the Government would now put to Germany, categorically, the question put, forward by my right hon. Friend. If that were done the question must be answered, and if in the affirmative there would be no reason whatever, after listening to the right hon. Gentleman's speech, why negotiations should not be entered upon. It would appear to me that all other matters are matters on which there might be a certain amount of give-and-take. We are not absolutely committed up to the hilt to any particular solution of any particular one of the other problems, which may be matters for discussion. If, on the other hand, Germany gave an absolute negative to that question, the people in Germany would know that their own Government had refused to give a satisfactory answer to a question which everybody understands is vital to the conclusion of peace at all. Nobody supposes we are going to make peace till we get for Belgium the terms indicated by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Fife. If we could have that question categorically asked and categorically answered, I cannot help feeling we should be a considerable step forward towards making peace. Not only would the answer, if it was in the negative, do a great deal to stimulate the peace party in Germany, but it would have a marvellous effect in pulling the people of this country together to carry on the War. I am perfectly certain there are many people who can believe or who can persuade themselves that the German Government are in fact ready to give us terms about Belgium, and that there are many people who believe that the Germans will evacuate Belgium and restore it and compensate it, and so long as that is so you will have less union for the carrying on of the War than you had three years ago. I submit that the time has come when the question indicated by the late Prime Minister should be put categorically to the Government in official form, not through unofficial speeches, and that we should be told in this country what are the answers to these questions.

I desire to comment for a very few minutes on the very important speech we have heard here to-night. With a great deal of what was said by the Foreign Secretary I am in entire agreement. His emphatic note that it is impossible to enter into detail at this stage and to discuss fully the intricate problems that have been raised by the War—with that statement of things I am in entire agreement, whilst the general outline that he sketched of what was the ideal that this country seeks in the War seemed to me to be lofty and in accordance with the national desires. I very much regret, however, that the right hon. Gentleman, departed from that outline and entered into details in one particular point. The right hon. Gentleman did not abide by the policy which he laid down this evening on a former occasion, because it was his Explanatory Note to President Wilson, last December that entered into the details of questions which have been raised by this War, and that crossed the "t's" and dotted the "i's" in such a way as to raise a great deal of turmoil and controversy throughout all the nations of Europe. To-night, instead of keeping to generalities he has laid very great and, to my mind, undue emphasis on the question, of Alsace-Lorraine.

My hon. Friend will forgive me if I interrupt. My speech is to be taken in the sense of being a reply to the speeches that preceded it. My hon. Friend must not say that I laid undue emphasis upon one point rather than another. The speech was not intended to be a full survey of the situation.

I do not want to misrepresent the right hon. Gentleman. But he did repeat that we ought at any cost to stand by France in the demand for the restoration to her of the frontier that she had before the Franco-German War. That did not appear to me to need emphasising. I do not say for a moment that the restoration of Alsace-Lorraine to France may not eventually be a settlement and end of the War. I do not want to prophesy about that at all. It is an extremely complex problem. I do not think I realised the complexity of the problem so fully as when I read the remarks upon it, and the article about it, that emanated from the hon. Member for Perth. We know that the Germans in taking Alsace-Lorraine in 1871 made a very great mistake, but we know that it was spoken of in Germany as a restoration to the German Empire of provinces that had been lost by them. This question of Alsace-Lorraine has remained a debateable point, and a source of the acutest irritation between France and Germany since the year 800, and if we are going to insist that the War shall continue until France once more recaptures those lost provinces, I foresee that we shall be let in for a very great prolongation of the War, and we shall find ourselves married to a policy which I am not sure has the full accordance of the people of France itself, and certainly was not one of the main objects for which we in this country entered this War.

As I said at the beginning, with the general propositions advanced by the right hon. Gentleman I am in agreement. When he said that the future, he hoped, would mean a great improvement in international morality, I would only make this comment on that phrase. I do not think it is international morality that really is at fault. I think it is inter-governmental morality that wants correcting, and we can only get a real improvement in inter-governmental morality by allowing the people in the various countries to express their opinions more freely, and to have a greater control over the management of their foreign policy. When that desirable reform is made in all countries—in this country as well as in others—I think we shall see a very great improvement in the morality between nations, because it will be dependent more on the people's will and not on the caprices and whims of statesmen.

Late as the hour is, I feel bound to say a few words on a different subject, and it is a very urgent and important one. When we discussed last week the question of the Food Controller's policy in this country we had not the full statement—and most unfortunate it was—of the Food Controller before us. It is ridiculous to suppose that we can at this hour discuss that statement, but I venture to say it is one at the moat important—and not only important, but urgently important—statements that have come from any Minister of the Crown in recent days. The question, of course, is one of vital interest from many points of view, and the soundness of the policy which was enunciated by the Food Controller is of absolutely urgent and vital interest to this country. I do not intend to go over that policy, but there are just two outstanding points on which, even at this late hour, I feel bound to say a word or two, because I object to them intensely, and am convinced that they will turn out to be economically unsound. The first is the subsidy of the loaf. That is a very tempting policy. It was tried in the days of the Roman Empire, and has been tried frequently since. It has always ended in disaster, and it is thoroughly unsound. I do not know of any country that has ever tried the policy of subsidising the loaf where it has not been followed with disaster. I only wish to record my conviction that it is an unsound policy.

It has already been made manifest that the other policy in regard to meat will have disastrous results. I am amazed that a man of Lord Rhondda's well-known business capacity surrounded by every form of expert advice should have announced the policy of reducing the price of beef by 6d. per lb. and by such a serious reduction as he announced in his speech. At present beef is selling at 84s. per cwt. live weight. That was the price last week. Lord Rhondda proposes that it should be reduced on the 1st of October to 75s. per cwt. live weight, and then on the 1st of January to 60s. It is well known that the cattle which come into the market now, and particularly on the 1st of September and in November, are the most cheaply fed cattle that come into the market, because they are grass-fed cattle, and at this period of the year you do not need to fatten cattle with feeding-stuffs if you have decent pastures Therefore, the cheapest cattle coming to the market are to be bought at 75s. per cwt. live weight and on the 1st of January, when all the cattle have to be fed at enormous cost, the price is to go down to 60s. per cwt. live-weight. That means a drop of about £8 per head in every beast and to tell farmers that they are to carry on their business on such a basis, receiving 75s. when they can feed cattle cheaply and in the period when the cost of feeding is enormously heavy—foodstuffs have gone up 300 per cent. on prewar prices and there is a scarcity—to lay down that they are to get 60s. per cwt. is bound to produce disastrous results. A well-known authority has informed me that the result of fixing this price for beef will be that the Food Controller will find that after the 1st of January, when spring comes, he will have hardly any beef to control, with the inevitable result that there will be a famine in beef. What annoys me is that the Food Controller, having observed similar results following on the mistakes made by his predecessor, did not take this matter into consideration.

11.0 P.M.

That is only one aspect of the question. What are the immediate effects on the farmers of this country? The farmers of the North and Eastern counties of Scotland and the Midlands have bought their Irish stores already, and I have seen reports in the "Times" newspaper and other papers of meetings of farmers where they have declared that they will be obliged under this Order to sell the cattle they have bought and fed for less than they have paid for them and for no profit at all. and all their feeding for the whole summer will disappear. Some feeders in this country have already figured it out and have announced that the Order will have the effect of inflicting heavy loss, amounting to many hundreds of pounds, for the whole of the summer feeding. We have had a great deal to say, and there will be more to say to-morrow, about encouraging agriculture and encouraging farmers to increase the supply of food. This Order has created a degree of uncertainty and irritation and indignation among the farmers which will do more to discourage the production of food than the Corn Bill will do to encourage it. It seems to me most preposterous to spend days and nights passing a Corn Bill to encourage agriculture and then by this Order to discourage the production of food in such a disastrous way. Remember what happened when the late Food Controller commenced to operate with regard to the milk supply. The ignorant Yellow Press of this country raised a clamour about the price of milk, and it was announced that the price of milk was to be kept down to 6d. per quart. Everybody who knew anything about it thought that it was a magnificent thing and the Food Controller was commended for having actually brought down the price of milk and conferred an immense benefit on the poor. What was the result? The supply began to fall off, the country was threatened with a very serious milk famine, and the whole policy had to be scrapped. Even now during this autumn and early winter the people and children will suffer. Anyone with practical knowledge knew what would happen. When the farmers and dairymen found that they could not produce milk at the price fixed, they began to get rid of their cows, and whole herds of valuable cows were disposed of. It was only when the Government realised that milk was getting scarcer every day that they changed their policy.

Look at the early effects of this new Order. At York Market last week Irish store cattle were left unbought. There was no market at all. The trade was absolutely paralysed. I do not know what became of these stores. I do not know whether they had to go back to Ireland or not, but there was no sale. I am told that in a short time this Order will drop the price of Irish stores by £4 10s. Do you imagine that the effect of that will not be to seriously decrease the supply? I am quite sure that it will. It will create a very bitter feeling in Ireland; but apart from that you dislocate the whole of the machinery of trade by these unreasonable Orders. If this Order is persevered with, you will find that you have put your hand upon a very delicate machine, and by the time that. January and February come you will have to scrap the Order; but by then you will have succeeded in very seriously reducing the supply of meat, perhaps bringing it to scarcity.

I am a strong believer in the doctrine that the sound way to deal with this question of prices is to increase the supplies by doing everything you possibly can and at the same time securing the utmost possible economy in consumption. But to put a gentleman, however skilled he may be in ordinary business transactions, into a position of dictator and allow him suddenly to issue an Order fixing the price of a finished commodity like beef without going into the whole machinery by which that beef is brought to the market, including all the stages of its production, is, in my opinion, an act of enormous folly. Lord Rhondda, wise man as he is—and I do not suppose there is a more capable man of business in the United Kingdom—does not, I think, know much about Irish cattle. His life has been mainly concerned in managing collieries, in which he has been probably the most successful man the world has known. He is a great business man, but different businesses have their own technicalities. There is one question I want to put. I do hot know whether there is anyone on the Front Bench to answer me. This is the last opportunity we shall have for some time of discussing this question; that is the only reason I have for bringing it forward now. If the question is not answered to-night, I hope it will be conveyed to the representative of the Food Controller. He proposes to reduce arbitrarily the price of fat cattle. Does he propose to make any corresponding reduction in the food with which cattle are made fat? There are two things that contribute to the great increase of the price of beef. One is that store cattle are much more expensive. How far that price is justified is a subject of great complexity. But there is another element which has an enormous influence upon the price of cattle. You have to pay three times as much for all that cattle have to eat, even if you can get it, and it is hard to get it. All the various foods for cattle have enormously increased in price. These are difficulties the breeders have to deal with. I say to the Government that if they are going to drop the price of beef they have got to drop also the prices of the things which are necessary for its production.

It is the great illustration of the terrible complexities which are met with once you commence a system of arbitrarily cutting down prices. I see that all the middlemen are to be eliminated. Does that mean that the Irish cattle dealers who bring the cattle over here are to be eliminated? I want to tell the Government, I believe it is impossible to do that. I know the men in the Irish cattle trade. They are a very large body of men who are extraordinarily skilful in discharging what, in my opinion, is an absolutely necessary part of the cattle trade which I do not think could go on without them. These men collect at the Irish cattle farms and markets and bring the cattle over to England, and are known throughout the whole of this country, and, as regards the greater part of them, are known to be trustworthy. A great many of the Northern feeders, of Aberdeen and other places, depend upon those Irish cattle dealers, and telegraph to them that they want a certain description of cattle, and they collect for them in Ireland the class of cattle they require.

These are skilled men; and it is all very well for you to talk of eliminating these men. You cannot do it, because if you attempt to eliminate or to run, as I am afraid this Order largely will, the Irish cattle dealers, who are the intermediate and the necessary and the skilled intermediate between the English trader and the Irish trader, you will kill the trade and bring about a condition of things in Ireland which will greatly upset the market of this country and interfere with your food supply. I was greatly astonished and greatly pleased to find, when examining the figures, that in the great crisis of the food supply of this country, that, small as Ireland is, she sends over to this country more food in value than any other country in the world, even including the United States of America. I was amazed to see that we sent £40,000,000 worth of food to this country every year. That food comes across by a short sea passage, which is vital to the food supply of this country. It is an enormous advantage to England, and one of the greatest possible advantages to the Irish people. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I know that right well. There are some foolish people in Ireland who do not understand that. I saw that a club of patriots in Ireland the other day said that in this coming winter they would hold the harvest. I should like to hear what the Irish farmer would say if that doctrine were put into force. The importations from Ireland are quite as important to you in these cases as to the Irish farmer, because you have this great volume of food of this quality coming to this country across the narrow sea, in which you have not lost a single cargo. Therefore, the Food Controller ought to be extremely cautious, and ought to think once, twice, and three times before he launches an Order calculated to dislocate and paralyse this trade, and perhaps thereby losing one of the most important sources of food supply to which the great population of this country has to look.

Certainly no one can find fault with the speech to which we have just listened. The considerations which the hon. Gentleman has put before the House obviously have weight which must appeal to everyone who deals with this subject, but after all, the House will not expect me to be able to deal with the somewhat detailed analysis of the meat trade which the hon. Gentleman has made. I much regret that the Under-Secretary for the Food Department is not here. I understand that the hon Member gave notice of his intention to raise this matter, but it was too late to get the Under-Secretary here, and his time is very much taken up. I wish to point out that, even at this late hour, the problem is not quite so simple as the hon. Member thinks. It must be obvious that if war conditions are to continue and if we are to be able to see the people of this country through the conditions which the War entails there must be some limit to the figure to which prices are to go.

Certainly, everyone will admit that trade should not be dislocated. I think that as strongly as the hon. Member, but there must be a limit in cases of this kind. It is obvious that if we obtain our supplies from abroad we cannot exercise proper control, and we have to pay the prices asked; but when we come to articles produced within the United Kingdom, then, clearly, it is the duty of the Government, in the best way in their power, to set a limit to the rise in prices which war does entail. The hon. Member spoke as if this was a hurried action on the part of the Food Controller. I can, at least, assure him and the House that that is not so, and that he has thought, not once, nor twice, but many times, before deciding to issue this Order. It was decided upon after many conferences with the Departments affected by it. Not only the Food Controller, but all those in charge of this Department know as accurately as the hon. Member himself that if you put prices at a figure which prevents supply you defeat your own purpose by depriving yourself of the food on which this country relies. What the Food Controller aimed at was to fix prices at a level which would give a fair profit to the producer, and would enable the supply to be kept up. All the considerations which the hon. Gentleman has put before the House were taken into account by him and the Departments concerned, and they believed that the figure at which they arrived is the figure which gives a fair profit to the producer, and, therefore, is fair as between the producer and the consumer in this country. When the hon. Gentleman said that the Order says that we are going to eliminate the middleman, he added that that was impossible. Very likely it is, but surely it is right, when you are cutting down prices, to limit the hands through which articles pass. By that means you limit the profits they will make, so far as it is possible to do so. No one suggests that it can do done entirely, but I think the House as a whole will agree with the first proposition I have laid down, that it is necessary, where the supplies are under our own control, that we should set some limit to the rise in price which takes place. All I can say to the House is that I know that in the scale which has been arrived at it is the belief of the Food Controller, after consultation with all the Departments affected, that the figures given do represent a fair margin of profit, and are therefore fair as between the producer and the consumer of these foods.

I heard the hon. Member, as I came into the House, speaking of an article in regard to which we cannot control the price of production, that is bread. He said that there was no country in the world that had made that attempt. In that the hon. Member is mistaken. The French Government, which is certainly poorer than the British Government, has kept the price of the loaf at 8d. as against the 9d. which is proposed here, and it has kept it there at a gross cost, greater to the French Government than the cost to the Treasury will be of the reduction now proposed. Why have they done it? It is because in the belief of the French Government, which has now become the belief of the British Government also, bread is a staple food of the people of this country. If bread is kept at reasonable price, then it is believed that the population will be able to go through this War and boar whatever other burdens are imposed upon them. On the other hand, if bread is allowed to rise to a price at which it cannot be obtained by a very large section of our population who have not got an increase of wages at all corresponding to the increase in the cost of articles—if that is done, there will be an amount of discontent created in this country which, in itself, will make it impossible for us to go through with the struggle in which we are engaged.

I heard my right hon. Friend the Member for North Monmouth (Mr. McKenna) speak on this subject, and I am bound to say I do not disagree with the statement he made to the House. It was that from the knowledge which had come to all of us there was great discontent throughout the country with the high prices. That is one side. I believe that must be taken into account in considering whether or not this effort should be made at the expense of the State to keep bread at a reasonable figure. I think there is room for great difference of opinion as to the wisdom of the step which has been taken, but I do not think there is any Member of the House who would for a moment contend that there must not be some limit set on the price at which bread is obtainable in this country. It is, therefore, a question of the degree of support which should be given. I do not think there is any Member who would question what I say now, that if prices had gone steadily up it was clearly the duty of the Government to set a limit to the rise. Therefore, the only problem, in my judgment, which the House can set itself is this, whether or not in deciding to keep the loaf at 9d. the Government, from the point of view of the Exchequer, have undertaken more than they ought to have done. There is room for difference of opinion on that point, but, in my judgment, there is no room for difference of opinion on this point, that there must be some limit to the price at which an article which is absolutely necessary for the existence of our population can be obtained. That seems to me just as much a war necessity as any other expenditure which we have to incur.

When we are told it is folly to put on taxation on the one hand and lose the money to the Exchequer in this way, that surely is not looking at the whole problem. If, for instance, you were to take off the indirect taxation on such articles as tobacco and other things of that kind, you would not give relief to the same people who had the same necessity as if you sell bread at a price at which it is possible for them to obtain it There is this further to be borne in mind: We do not know how long the War will last. We do not know either what the price of bread is going to be, but we know that the American Government intends, as we have tried to do, to set some limit to the price which the producer can obtain. We may hope, therefore, that the charge will not be a growing one. At a time when purely by necessity, purely from the desire to prevent discontent, which will dislocate all our actions in connection with the War it would be folly to say we are going to take taxation off those who can afford to pay, when the sole justification for this is that bread must be kept at a level which the population can pay if we are to continue the War at all. I am sorry the representative of the Department who could have answered in detail the questions which have been put is not here. I would now appeal to the House to let us get the Third Reading. It is not our intention to attempt to take any other business.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read the third time, and passed.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

New Writ

For the City of Kilkenny in the room of Patrick O'Brien, Esquire, deceased.—[ Mr. Boland. ]

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order oi the House of the 12th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-five minutes after Eleven o'clock.