House of Commons
Tuesday, July 31, 1917
Private Business
South Eastern and London, Chatham, and Dover Railways Bill (by Order),
Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Glasgow Boundaries Act (1912) Amendment Order Confirmation Bill (by Order),
Consideration deferred till To-morrow.
Liquor Control (State Purchase)
I have been asked to present a petition on behalf of the Baptist Union Churches of Scotland in favour of immediate prohibition and against the purchase and State control of the drink trade. It contains 8,000 signatures.
TREATY SERIES (No. 9, 1917)
Copy presented of Agreement between the United Kingdom and Liberia respecting the boundary between Sierra Leone and Liberia from the River Makona or Moa, in the north, to the River Magowi, in the south (with Map). London 19/26 June, 1917 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
PRISONERS OF WAR (MISCELLANEOUS, No. 12, 1917)
Copy presented of an Agreement between the British and German Governments concerning combatant and civilian Prisoners of War [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Board of Agriculture and Fisheries
Copy presented of Statement in regard to the Cost of Growing an Acre of Wheat during the present Season compared with the pre-War Cost [by Command]; to lift upon the Table.
Shops Act, 1912
Copy presented of Order made by the Council of the undermentioned local authority, and confirmed, with Amendment, by the Secretary for Scotland:—
Burgh of Wishaw
[by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Universities (Scotland) Act, 1889 (Ordinance)
Copy presented of University Court Ordinance, No. 60 (Edinburgh, No. 22) (Institution of a Degree in Commerce and relative Regulations) [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 124.]
Census of England and Wales,. 1911
Copy presented of Census of England and Wales, 1911. Vol. XIII. Fertility of Marriage. Part I. [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Army (Regimental Debts)
Copy presented of Royal Warrant. Regulations under the Regimental Debts Act, 1893 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Paper laid upon the Table by the Clerk: of the House:—Copy of the County Court (Billeting of Civilians) Rules, 1917, dated 31st July, 1917 [by Act].
Oral Answers to Questions
War
British Subjects in Russia (Conscription)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether British subjects resident in Russia who have been or are to be conscripted under the recent Act of Parliament and the convention with Russian following thereon, and who prefer to serve in the British Army, will have their passages and other travelling expenses paid for them; and whether similar terms will apply to Russian subjects conscripted in this country?
The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part of the question, arrangements will be made to secure that Russians who are unable to pay the expenses of their return to Russia are not thereby deprived of the opportunity of returning.
Paris Conference
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether on the occasion of his visit to Paris last week he was accompanied by Lord Hardinge?
No, Sir.
asked the Prime Minister whether he anticipates being in a position to make a statement to the House on the result of the deliberations of the Paris Conference?
I regret that it is not possible to make any statement on the subject.
War Cabinet
Absence of Member Abroad
( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister whether he can give the House any further information with regard to the circumstances attending and the objects of the visit of the Labour Mission to Paris?
I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave to my Noble Friend yesterday.
Arising out of the answer of the Leader of the House to my Noble Friend, are we to understand that the Government have no knowledge at all of what is taking place in Paris at a conference at which one of the members of the War Cabinet is present? Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House no information about it at all? Are we to understand that a member of the War Cabinet is there en- tirely on his own responsibility and without consultation with his colleagues, and, for no mission on which the War Cabinet is concerned?
Yes; the hon. Gentleman has exactly described the situation. I have no information whatever as to what is taking place in Paris. My right hon. Friend is only doing what he has done before—that is, attending a meeting of the Labour party, of which he still continues to be secretary.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman see that the position of his right hon. colleague at an international conference is radically different from his position at domestic meetings in this House; and in these circumstances it is possible for the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle to dissociate himself from his character as a member of the War Cabinet? Consequently, can the mission to which he has gone be other than an official mission in the eyes of the world?
The hon. Gentleman is wrong in describing it as an "international conference." It is a meeting of Allies—members of the Labour party of the Allied countries—and the Government have no knowledge of what is taking place. I am quite sure, however, that my right hon. Friend will not do anything to commit the Government to any action.
Has the right hon. Gentleman any information yet as to whether or not the hon. Member for Leicester was conveyed to France on one of His Majesty's ships?
I said yesterday that I had reason to believe that he had gone in the ordinary way. I got my information from the Admiralty, and I have no doubt it is accurate.
As a matter of public urgency, I would ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, in order that the House may be informed why the Labour Member of the War Cabinet is in Paris at a conference which may have an effect upon our international relations, and what instructions, if any, he has had for that conference?
The hon. Member has just heard that there have been no instructions given, and that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle has gone to the conference as an independent member of the Labour party and not as a representative of the Government.
Well, then, Mr. Speaker, I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the question that a member of the War Cabinet is out of the country on a mission about which we know nothing, and in order that we may find out from the Government why they approve of such proceedings?
Will the hon. Member bring me the form?
having handed in his Motion—
The hon. Member for East Edinburgh proposes to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House in order to call attention to the action of a member of the War Cabinet on a mission of which the House has no information. I think I must really decline to accept the matter as one of urgency.
Hear, hear!
The right hon. Gentleman in question has gone, as I understand, entirely on his own responsibility and as a member of the Labour party. That is the information which has been publicly given.
Put it to the House, Sir!
On a point of Order. Is it not a matter of urgent importance to this House that a member of the War Cabinet should be out of the country on an international mission at a critical time in the War without the knowledge of his colleagues in the Cabinet?
I think the hon. Gentleman ought to wait until the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle returns.
No!
I believe he will be back to-morrow.
The mischief will have been done then.
I say what I do on the grounds of equity. The right hon. Gentleman has been attacked in his absence He will return to this country either to-morrow or the next day. It is only fair to the right hon. Gentleman that he should be here.
On a point of Order. May I point out that I am making no attack on the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle. My attack is on the War Cabinet who have permitted, without their approval, and without their knowledge— which they received afterwards—the absence of one of their members out of the country. It may be on a matter of international importance at a critical juncture in the War?
The hon. Member has put his Motion to the effect that he desires to call attention to the absence of a member of the War Cabinet about which the House has no information. I have explained the reason why the right hon. Gentleman is not here and why he ought to be here to defend himself.
May I ask the Leader of the House how it is that the Cabinet allow a fellow Member to be associated with the hon. Member for Leicester?
The name of the hon. Member for Leicester is not in the Motion.
On a point of Order. May I ask your ruling, Mr. Speaker, as to whether this will still be a matter of urgency when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle returns? If a Motion similar to that which has been moved by the hon. Member is put forward will it still be urgent and in order?
I think so. I have refused the Motion entirely on the ground that the right hon. Gentleman who, as we have been informed, has undertaken this mission without previously consulting the War Cabinet, is absent to-day and, therefore, can give no explanation. I think it is fair that he should be here.
I shall move it to-morrow.
I beg to submit, Sir, that it is necessary after all that has transpired—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"]
I have given my ruling, and that concludes the matter.
"Notes on Strategy."
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has now inquired into the circumstances under which a memorandum entitled "Notes on Strategy" was sent out last week with the names of three members of the War Cabinet; and whether the views and policy of this memorandum are those of the Government?
The memorandum which is unsigned, was issued without the knowledge or the consent of the three members of the Government whose names figure on the council of the society. His Majesty's Government take no responsibility for the views expressed in the memorandum.
Questions
Officer and Private (Incident at York Station)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to an incident in York Station on the 16th instant, when about 11 p.m. an officer seized a mug of hot coffee from a soldier's hand and, without any warning or provocation, poured the contents over the man's bare head and down his neck; and what steps have been taken to deal with this officer?
An explanation has now been received of this incident from the officer concerned, and it is being considered by the military authorities.
When may I repeat the question, so as to have an answer?
On Tuesday of next week.
Prosecution of Officer (Central Criminal Court)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether any of the officials of the Grove Park establishment for the training of officers have recently been prosecuted, and with what result; and what steps his Department has taken, or proposes to take, to deal with that place?
I presume that my hon. Friend is referring to the recent prosecution of an officer at the Central Criminal Court. This officer was not connected in any way with the establishment for training officers at Grove Park.
Lieutenant-Colonel Monteagle Brown (2nd Munsters)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War (1) if Lieutenant-Colonel Monteagle Brown, of the 2nd Ministers, has been deprived of the command of his battalion in France, and, if so, will he say why; whether he is now in England and how employed; whether officers and men from Reserve battalions of the Munsters in Ireland when under orders to proceed to France expressed a wish not to be sent to this officer's regiment; whether complaints have been made in France as to this officer's conduct as to the treatment of his men, and if officers of his regiment are continually applying for transfers; whether he has any official information showing that this officer in France in June, 1916, actually accused a senior officer of the Munsters of being a Sinn Feiner, or that at Loos in August, 1916, he refused the request of a company commander to bring the Roman Catholic chaplain to a sergeant of the Munsters who was mortally wounded in a raid, although the chaplain was only a quarter of a mile away at the time; whether the soldier died without receiving comfort from his priest; (2) whether he has any official information showing that Lieutenant-Colonel Monteagle Brown, at Guillemont, on 3rd September, 1916, threatened to place a senior officer of the Munsters under arrest for acting without his orders when at a critical period of the attack the officer in question went to the assistance of an Irish regiment, who were for the moment staggered through the loss of all their senior officers, and linking arms with their battalion piper, led them through a storm of shells and machine-gun bullets to the final objective, which they carried with great dash; whether he is aware that this officer went into the battle with both arms wounded and in bandages, against the orders of the medical officer, and after leading his men so bravely during the day was buried by a bursting shell that night and that no attempt was made by his commanding officer to find or rescue him though reported missing; whether he is aware that this officer was buried for eleven hours, and when rescued again rejoined his unit and refused to go to hospital; whether Colonel Monteagle Brown refused to recommend the officer in question for honours, though the bravery and heroic conduct of the officer was well known and much commented on throughout the 16th Division; and if the Army Council will cause an inquiry to be held into the conduct of this officer?
As this officer has already been called upon to resign his commission on account of adverse reports made by his superiors, I do not think that any useful purpose would now be served by making the inquiries suggested by the hon. Member.
Has he got a very good report from his senior officer?
I cannot answer that offhand.
Did this officer make a statement that he went over the top on the night that Major William Redmond was killed, when he was not within twenty miles of the firing line?
I cannot answer that offhand.
East African Campaign (General Smuts' Dispatch)
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether the names mentioned in the dispatches submitted by Generals Aitken, Wapshawe, Tighe, and others in the early stages of the East African campaign will now be published?
As my hon. and gallant Friend was informed on 21st November last, General Smuts' dispatch of 8th May, 1916, included the names of officers and men mentioned for distinguished service in East Africa from the beginning of operations. It is not proposed to add any further names to the lists already published.
Why are these names mentioned by the Generals I refer to not published? There is a very great number of names which have not been published yet, though they have been mentioned.
I will look into it, but I am informed that General Smuts' dispatch includes the names of officers and men mentioned for distinguished service.
Not all the officers.
Insults to Soldiers (Ireland)
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether the insults and attempts at injury to soldiers in uniform which have become frequent in Ireland have been under the attention of the Army Council; and will he say what steps have been taken and orders issued by the Irish command, in conjunction with the Irish Government, to defend isolated parties of unarmed soldiers from molestation?
I am informed by the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief in Ireland that, excluding the few days after the release of the prisoners, no cases of the kind referred to by my hon. and gallant Friend are reported. There are rumours from time to time, but inquiry has failed to substantiate cases other than those of interference with the military police when arresting soldiers. The military authorities in Ireland, in conjunction with the Irish Government, are fully competent to deal with the matter.
Highland Light Infantry (Home Leave)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the 1/7th Highland Light Infantry, Bridgeton Battalion, has during the past two years had continuous foreign service; and whether an effort will be made to secure home leave for those privates who have had no home leave for over two years?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the statement which I made last night in Debate.
Major Parr Campbell (Seaforth Highlanders)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his Department can see their way to grant a meritorious service pension to Major Parr Campbell, late 2nd Seaforth Highlanders, in view of the fact that services rendered during the South African War should be allowed to reckon in his favour, he having retired voluntarily at 53½ years of age after thirty-five years' service in the Army with three campaigns to his credit and mentioned in dispatches, such South African service having made more than good the deficiency of age and service?
A retired combatant officer is not entitled to a reward for distinguished or meritorious service if his retirement was voluntary, as in this case.
Military Service
Conscientious Objectors
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether there is any legal objection to the employment of conscientious objectors in the various theatres of war in non-combatant service; and, if not, will he consider the advisability of removing the five sons of Mr. Dunn, the hatter, now enjoying themselves in country houses, with corresponding comforts, in the country, to some theatre where they may have the privilege of sharing war hardships with our brave soldiers even if they refuse to fight with them?
Four of these men hold certificates of exemption from military service. The position of the youngest is not known in the War Office. As I explained to my hon. Friend in answer to his questions on the 25th inst., I am not in a position to interfere or to adopt his suggestion.
Will the hon. Gentleman answer the first part of the question about legal objection?
As I understand it these four men appealed from the local tribunal at St. Albans to the Appeal Tribunal.
Will the hon. Gentleman answer the general question whether there is any legal objection to the employment of conscientious objectors in the various theatres of war in non-combatant service?
The hon. Gentleman may know that there are two types of conscientious objectors. One is the absolutist who refuses to accept any form of military service at all, and the other the alternativist, who is prepared to accept work of national importance. I assume these four men were alternativists and did accept work of national importance.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that great indignation is arising in the country at the action of this Committee in giving these cowards and shirkers soft jobs?
Are they making hats still?
I believe not. They are making hay.
asked the Undersecretary for War whether his attention has been called to the case of Private James C. Pedersen, No. 376550, 2/10th Battalion Royal Scots, a conscientious objector, who was court-martialled at Coldingham, near Berwick-on-Tweed, on 11th July, and sentenced to eighteen months' hard labour, with six months remitted; whether the prisoner was taken away from Coldingham on 17th July; whether he can give any reason for the refusal of the military authorities to inform Pedersen's wife where he was being taken to, except that he was being conveyed to a detention barracks; whether such procedure is contrary to Regulations, as to be in order Pedersen should have been sent direct to a civil prison; and can he see his way to allowing Pedersen's wife to be informed of his present whereabouts?
Inquiries are being made, and I will communicate with my right hon. Friend as soon as they are completed.
American Subjects
asked whether American subjects or their sons of military age are eligible for commissions in all or any regiments of the British Army, or, failing commissions, are they allowed to enlist in the ranks?
American subjects are not eligible for combatant commissions. If they are approved for enlistment in accordance with a recognised procedure, which includes the making of suitable inquiries, they are allowed to enlist up to the legally permitted percentage in any corps.
Can the hon. Gentleman say whether this applies to all the Allies? Will a Russian gentleman of military experience be eligible for a commission?
I believe not, but they have opportunities open to them by joining the Russian Army.
Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry (Private T. Cleary)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he has now got the promised report relative to the case of Private Thomas Cleary, No. 54/093,679, trade clerk, now transferred to the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry, F company, Hut 49, Golden Hill, Freshwater, Isle of Wight; whether he is aware that Thomas Cleary joined the Army Service Corps as a clerk in April, 1915; if he will say why this man was transferred to an Infantry regiment against his will; whether Cleary protested; whether his protest was overruled although his transfer was illegal; and if he will now have this case considered with the view of returning this man to the corps he joined when he entered the Service and to the position he occupied in that corps?
Cleary enlisted for general service. His transfer to Infantry was made under the Army Transfers Act, and was not, therefore, illegal, as my hon. Friend states. He made no protest at the time of the transfer. All category A men who can be spared are being transferred to fighting from non-fighting corps, and there is no intention of retransferring them back.
Is the hon. Member aware of the fact from correspondence I submitted to him that he joined as a clerk?
That may be so. It all depends upon his attestation. I gather from the answer that he signed a general service form. As the hon. Member knows, in 1915 we passed the Military Transfer Act, which makes it possible for the War Office authorities to transfer men from one branch of the Service to another.
Theatrical and Music Hall Artistes
asked the Undersecretary for War whether his attention has been called to the numerous cases of men in the theatrical and music-hall profession who are said through undue influence either to have obtained exemption or jobs which keep them to London and allow them to pursue their ordinary avocations as usual; whether he is aware that men in the theatrical profession who have joined the Army are able to continue their ordinary theatrical and music-hall duties at night; and whether he will explain why this is permitted in view of the spirit and letter of the military regulations?
The questions of exemptions and low category classifications held by members of the theatrical and music-hall profession have been the subject of searching inquiry on the part of the recruiting authorities. The facilities afforded by the Review of Exceptions Act have been used to the utmost in all cases in which there was reason to suspect impropriety, and it is thought that the number of men holding improper classifications has been largely reduced. The question is one purely for tribunals, and applications for review have in all cases been made by the military representatives where there has been any prospect of success. As regards the question of serving soldiers taking part in theatrical performances at night, I would ask my hon. and gallant Friend for specific cases, and I will inquire into them. It seems quite possible, however, that soldiers stationed in London may have completed their military duties for the day and be in possession of passes, which would enable them to attend a theatre at night.
Has the hon. Gentleman not seen repeated letters and severe comments in the Press on this subject?
I have seen some letters. I think I have answered all the points put by my hon. Friend in the question.
Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that there are several soldiers in London who have permanent engagements at theatres and music-halls?
I am not aware of that, but if a man is performing his military duties during the day I do not see any reason why he should not be allowed to do this at night.
Can the hon. Gentleman say how it is that these gentlemen can get positions in the Army which enable them to carry on their ordinary work?
I cannot say offhand, but I assume that these men have by chance got occupations in London which enable them to put in full time at their military duties during the day and: attend the theatre at night.
Can the hon. Gentleman deal with the case of Mr. George Grossmith, inspector of tanks, who continues his theatrical occupation?
The hon. Member should give notice of that.
He asked for specific cases.
First Expeditionary Force (Mons Retreat
asked whether any mark of distinction is going to be awarded to the remnants of the first Expeditionary Force which saved the situation in the retreat from Mons and prevented the capture of Calais?
I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer given yesterday to my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy Burghs.
Medical Examination (Mr. F. M. Attwater)
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he is aware that on the 6th July, 1917, the Special Medical Board classified Mr. F. M. Attwater in category C 1, notwithstanding that a London specialist had given evidence before the tribunal that he was suffering from Addison's disease, that such disease was incurable, and that any form of Army service would result in death in a very short time; whether the medical board had before them the certificate of Dr. Williams, and, if so, on what grounds did they disregard it; whether, in the event of the Appeal Tribunal not granting exemption, it is proposed, in view of the certificates, to call him up for service; and whether it will be contended before the tribunal that they are bound by the Special Medical Board classification?
From the documents referring to this man it appears that he was examined on the 21st June, 1916, by the Recruiting Medical Board at Battersea and was classified C 1, on which occasion he presented a certificate of neurasthenia. He was again examined on the 26th May, 1917, by No. 1 Recruiting Medical Board, Whitehall, when he was again classified C 1; on this occasion the man presented a certificate stating that he suffered from indigestion and a dilated stomach. He was again examined by the Special. Medical Board, Millbank, on the 6th July, 1917, and once more classified C 1. On this occasion his blood pressure was taken and found to be 150mm. mercury, which is the normal standard of the blood pressure. At the time of his examination by the Special Medical. Board he presented a certificate from Sir James Mackenzie, stating that he was easily exhausted on slight exertion, that he had an enormously dilated stomach, while his nutrition was very much impaired. The same physician had previously written to a gentleman interested in the case to the effect, "I don't think there is any cause to look forward to a fatal termination, because a large number of people suffer like this more or less all their life, and live to a good old age." A second certificate was presented stating that he suffered from cyclic albuminuria, a disorder often of little significance. A certificate from a third medical man was also presented stating that he suffered from Addison's disease and that "in unfavourable conditions he will die very quickly." It will be noted that considerable discrepancies exist in the statements made in the medical certificates, whereas the result of the examinations by the medical boards on three successive occasions was identical in every case. This man has now made an application to the Appeal Tribunal, and the recruiting authorities propose to fight the case.
Will the papers applicable to the first tribunal be available for the second tribunal, so that they can refer to them?
I assume so.
Can the hon. Gentleman say what is Addison's disease?
One-Man Businesses (Appellants)
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether, in cases where local tribunals grant exemption to one-man business appellants and the military representatives successfully appeal to the Appeal Tribunal against such decisions, he will issue Regulations providing that, in certain cases of age, medical categories, and magnitude of the businesses involved, the civilian appellant shall have the right to appeal to the Central Tribunal without the consent of the Appeal Tribunal?
Under the Military Service Acts it rests with the Appeal Tribunal to decide whether or not leave to appeal to the Central Tribunal shall be granted. It could not, therefore, be provided by Regulations that leave to appeal must always be granted in certain cases.
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that dissatisfaction prevails throughout the country at the unequal decisions of tribunals as regards appeals on the ground of one-man-business hardship; and if he will refer the whole question to a Committee with a view to securing uniformity and fairness of administration in accord with the spirit of the Regulations governing appeals of this nature?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. I have had various cases of the owners of one-man businesses brought to my notice. Many of these are, I know, very hard, and I have much sympathy with the men. I have made some proposals, which are now under consideration, for giving further help in suitable cases. I do not think the matter is one calling for the appointment of a new Committee. The Central Tribunal have published decisions on the subject, and although there was at first some misconception about it, that has now, I hope, been removed. I would strongly press the importance of co-operation amongst retail traders. They can in many cases, and in some cases have done, much to reduce the hardship caused by the calling up of one of their number, and it is reasonable to expect that they will make all efforts in this direction.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the proposals to which he refers will be published?
I hope soon.
Northern General Hospital, Sheffield (Discharge Application)
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether Arthur J. W. Ball, No. 202,144, C Company, 2/4th Northampton Regiment, is at present in Ward 26, 3rd Northern General Hospital, Sheffield; whether as long ago as April it was decided to discharge this man; whether he has been medically examined since March last, and why; whether the doctor attending him has received no instruction to send him before a medical board; whether three medical boards have been held since Ball has been at his present hospital; why Ball has been told that he can be discharged immediately if he volunteers for service under the National Service scheme; and whether there is any good reason for this man's discharge being any longer delayed?
I am inquiring, and will inform my hon. Friend as soon as I am in a position to do so.
Donington Hall (German Officers' Escape)
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he is now in a position to offer any explanation of the circumstances surrounding the escape in civilian clothes of three interned German officers from Donington Hall?
I am informed by the military authorities that the evidence given at the Court of Inquiry showed that the three officer prisoners effected their escape from Donington Hall in uniform, and changed into civilian clothing after passing through a weak spot in the barbed wire surrounding the camp. The discarded uniforms of two of these officers were found in a hollow tree close by, and that of the third officer was in his possession when he was recaptured. The civilian clothing was such as is usually worn by British workmen, and, as the evidence pointed to connivance between the escaped prisoners and British workmen employed in the camp, inquiries have been instituted for the purpose of tracing the ownership.
Why was there a "weak spot" in the barbed wire, considering that all these officers had nothing else to do but to look after it?
I am afraid I cannot say.
Do I understand that no alarm was given?
No, apparently not.
Is any inquiry being made with regard to connivance outside the camp?
Yes, inquiries are being made. I know the authorities are not satisfied to let the matter remain where it is, but I cannot make any further statement to-day.
Air Services
Enemy Aliens and Aerodromes
asked whether, having regard to recent occurrences at a certain aerodrome, all enemy aliens will be removed from the districts and all German prisoners from the aerodrome?
I am not aware to what occurrence reference is made, but if I may be given details I will have inquiries made and appropriate action taken as far as lies in my power.
Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that in the question I put down the specific aerodrome, which I was asked to omit? Surely that question would give the hon. Gentleman facilities for obtaining information.
I confess to having the question submitted to me, and I thought it was against the public interest that any specific aerodrome should be mentioned. I therefore took the responsibility of abstracting that myself. I made inquiries to-day, and the authorities at the War Office have no information at all about a recent occurrence such as the hon. Member suggests.
Aeroplane Manufacture (Railway Companies' Works)
asked the Minister of Munitions whether an offer has been made by the Great Western Railway Company to manufacture aeroplanes in the carriage department at the Swindon Railway Works; wheher he is aware that facilities exist for the testing and finish of machines; and whether such offer has been refused?
Some time ago, before the taking over of the Aeronautical Supply Department by the Ministry of Munitions, the Great Western Railway, with other railway companies, were asked to what extent they could assist in the manufacture of aeroplanes and aeroplane parts. It appeared that the facilities they could then offer were comparatively small, and the matter was not proceeded with. Some aeroplane parts have, however, been constructed by the railway companies.
Might not a fresh communication be sent to the railway companies to see if they could now supply the goods that are required?
I understand that the facilities have not increased within the last few months; but if there is any individual railway company which can do anything substantial, I am sure that it will be done.
I understand that that is so.
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
Wounded Officers
asked the Undersecretary for War why, in view of the fact that the pensions and allowances for wounded non-commissioned officers and men have been considerably increased, he will explain why the pensions for wounded officers of the Regular Army have been been considerably reduced?
The hon. Member is under some misapprehension. The pensions to wounded officers of the Regular Army have not been reduced, nor is it proposed to reduce them.
Is it not a fact that if you take into consideration the service pension of the Regular officer, along with his disability pension, by the new Warrant he will suffer?
I do not think so, but I will consider any cases which the hon. Member may bring forward.
Extra Separation Allowances
asked the Pensions Minister whether any fresh decision has been taken with regard to the basis of award of extra separation allowances to the dependants of apprentices by local War Pensions Committees?
This matter is still under consideration, and I will communicate with my hon. Friend when a decision is reached.
My right hon. Friend's communication told me the same thing about three weeks or a month ago.
I will do what I can.
Minimum Payments
asked the Pensions Minister whether he is aware of the hardship ensuing to dependant parents under Article 21 of the Warrant; and whether he is prepared to at least consider the award in all cases of a minimum payment?
The answer to the first part is in the affirmative. I am carefully watching the working of Article 21 of the Royal Warrant with a view to the consideration suggested by the hon. Member.
If the right hon. Gentleman knows, as he must know, that the average dependent parent is getting less than 5s. a week on the death of a son, is he making any attempt to approach the Treasury to establish a minimum payment to dependent parents whose sons have been killed in the War?
This matter has been put to the Treasury. It has been sympathetically met by the Chancellor, and it is under consideration.
Are we to get more than sympathy?
I hope so. The matter is now under consideration.
Enemy Air Raids
Royal Naval Air Station, Felixstowe
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether on the morning of the raid last Sunday the Felixstowe air commander was at his post; if not, will he say why not; and whether it is in the best interests of the Flying Service that a commander should live nearly three miles from the air station?
It is presumed that my right hon. Friend is referring to the Royal Naval Air Station, and therefore I have been asked to answer this question. The reference is, of course, to the raid of last Sunday week. The commanding officer was not on the station at the time mentioned, but there was present, as there always is, an officer of sufficient experience and seniority to take charge. It has not been possible to provide accommodation for the commanding officer actually at the station itself.
Can the hon. Gentleman say whether in these circumstances he will see that whoever is left in command of the station has authority to give an order for the squadron to engage the enemy, without having to wait to find the commanding officer or to get through to headquarters?
There is no need to say that. The second in command has full authority to engage the enemy at once, without waiting for anybody.
Police Injured (Gold Stripes)
asked the Home Secretary whether a policeman who may suffer injury directly or indirectly attributable to the action of the enemy is entitled to wear the gold stripe on the left arm denoting injury received in the service of the country?
I understand that, under the Army Orders, the award of the gold braid distinction is confined to officers, soldiers, members of the Military Nursing Services, members of Voluntary Aid Detachments, and special probationers employed in military hospitals who are wounded by the enemy whilst serving in this country.
In view of the fact that you call on the police to act in a military capacity, will they be included in this distinction?
We do not ask the police to act in any military capacity.
Are not the police asked to expose themselves to danger which otherwise they would not have to do?
The police have always exposed themselves to danger.
Buried Anti-Aircraft Shell (City of London)
asked the Home Secretary whether an aerial torpedo or bomb fell and failed to explode in the City in the course of a recent air raid; whether this live explosive has been removed; if not, whether this explosive has been left in a live state and concreted over; and whether it is the duty of the military or civil authorities to remove it?
No aerial torpedo was dropped in the recent air raid. Several bombs fell in the City and failed to explode, but in no case were such bombs left in a live state for a longer time than could be avoided. Since the bombs penetrate a considerable distance into the ground, often in most inaccessible places, their removal is sometimes a slow and laborious process. I understand that during the raid on 7th July an unexploded anti-aircraft shell, or a portion of one, made a hole in a cement pavement in the City and penetrated six feet below ground between a hydraulic main and a telephone cable. Its removal at the time presented difficulties, and in order to relieve the police of the necessity of guarding it, the place was cemented over, pending the matter being attended to.
In view of the fact that the hon. Gentleman states that no bomb is left in a live state, are we to understand that the bomb is accessible to remove the fuse and is inaccessible to be removed from the ground and to remove the charge from it?
The hon. Gentleman misrepresents what I did say. I said, "In no case were such bombs left in a live state for a longer time than could be avoided."
Questions
Soldiers' Ration Money
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether the soldiers' ration money has now been reduced to 1s. 9d. a day; if so, why this allowance is less than the amount allowed for food to military nurses, namely, 15s. 6d. a week; whether any comparison has been made between this allowance and the amount now generally paid to domestic servants as board wages; and whether the War Office is satisfied that it is sufficient, having regard to the present high prices for food?
No, Sir; the ration allowance has not been reduced. On the contrary, it was raised from 1s. 7d. to 1s. 9d. from the 1st December last. Usually, rations are supplied to the soldier in kind. When this is not possible the equivalent value is issued in cash. The soldiers' rations are not suitable for nurses, and the same cash allowance is not applicable. The present allowance is 15s. a week, but it includes other items than that of food. Board wages paid to domestic servants vary, I understand, from 10s. to 15s. a week, but military nurses are classed for certain allowances with officers.
Is not the food allowance for soldiers deficient compared with the food allowance for nurses?
The cases are really not strictly comparable, because, as I have informed my hon. Friend, the nurses' allowance includes provision for items other than food.
Food Supplies
Meat
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether the sanction and approval of the Board of Agriculture for Scotland were obtained before the fixing of maximum prices of meat from September to January next?
The prices as finally fixed differ from those originally put forward on either side. They represent a compromise reached after prolonged discussion at a conference between representatives of all the Departments concerned.
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether his sanction and approval were obtained for the fixing of the maximum prices for meat from September to January next?
I have nothing to add to the answer given by the Secretary for Scotland to the preceding question.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that the reported restricted price of 60s. per cwt. for beef for the month of January is viewed with great concern by the National Farmers' Union, as, in their opinion, it is much below the cost of production, and unless the prices of feeding stuffs are restricted pro rata no farmer can produce beef during next winter at the price mentioned; and, seeing that the prices fixed for the last two months of 1917 are below what such cattle cost to produce, will he say what action he proposes to take?
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if he is aware that unless the price of feeding stuffs is very considerably reduced it will be impossible for farmers to produce beef except at a loss for January at 60s. a cwt., and that, therefore, less farmyard manure will be produced and there will be a shortage, if not almost total absence, of home-grown beef in the markets in January; and will he, therefore, confer with the Board of Agriculture or the farmers with a view to reconsidering the matter?
The attention of the Food Controller has been called to the views expressed by the National Farmers' Union, and he has also conferred with several deputations of agriculturists on this question. Lord Rhondda appreciates the fact that the high prices of feeding stuffs are causing difficulties to farmers, and he is giving the matter his most careful attention.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it is impossible for farmers to produce beef at that price?
Has the price been approved by the Minister of Agriculture?
I am not able to say positively as to that, but it is indicated that the matter is still under consideration.
Has Lord Rhondda seen or consulted any deputation representative of the Irish trade in this matter? If not, is the Irish trade to be dealt with by Lord Rhondda or by a separate authority?
As to whether Lord Rhondda has met a deputation of the Irish trade at the moment I am unable to answer, but the heads of the Departments, together with myself, met representatives of Irish interests one day last week.
Is the Food Controller aware that numerous farmers complain that this will prevent them buying stock, because they think that they will be unable to make a profit at present prices?
I am not aware of that. I hope that it is not so.
It is so.
Can the Food Controller let the agriculturists of the country know whether any feeding stuffs will be available towards the end of the year for their purposes?
I should like notice of this.
Has the Order which has been passed for military meat been passed also for meat for civilians?
What applies to military meat applies also to meat for civilians.
Wheat
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Canadian Government has fixed the price of wheat as from 1st August at 80s. per quarter, delivered at Fort William; and, if so, whether this applies to that portion of the crop which will be consumed in the United Kingdom?
I understand that the price mentioned is approximately the maximum fixed by the Canadian Board of Grain Supervisors for old-crop wheat.
Does that mean that the importer into this country has to pay that price, and that that is the price at which the wheat brought into this country has been bought?
It is subject to that maximum; but the hon. Member will realise that that is the maximum price, and therefore it by no means follows that every purchase in this country is at the maximum.
Potatoes
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether last week there were several trucks, about eight, of old potatoes, to all appearances sound, at Cranbrook Station, which a farmer had bought to feed his pigs on; if so, will he ascertain to whom the potatoes belonged; and why these potatoes were not put on the market for human food during the recent shortage?
I was not aware of the facts stated by the hon. Member, but I am having inquiries made in the matter?
Fish (Transport)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether his attention has been called to the waste of fish caused by difficulty of transportation; and whether he will take steps to prevent this loss of good food for the people?
Complaints have been received from time to time as to delay in delivery of fish, and action has been taken on each case according to the circumstances. If specific details of any particular case of undue delay are brought to the notice of the Food Controller, immediate inquiry will be made.
Food Regulations (East London)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware of the evasion and non-observance of food regulations that occurs among the non-British population of East London; and, seeing that the bakers, who are mostly non-British, sell sugar to their customers whereas it is difficult to obtain sugar in British-owned grocery shops, that bread is sold not twelve hours baked, composed of white flour and baked at night, will he consider the advisability of immediately entrusting the supply and regulation of food to a local food control committee composed of British-born citizens and armed with full powers to check the evasions practised by the alien population of East London?
I am informed that the police are sparing no effort to enforce in the East End of London the provisions of the Orders relating to food, and that a number of prosecutions have been undertaken, while others are pending. I may add that the devolution to local food committees of detailed regulation and control forms an important part of Lord Rhondda's policy.
Has the hon. Member seen the report issued by the medical officer of health of Stepney, which largely bears out my question?
The allegations in the question are not disputed. I have not seen the report in question.
May I send it to you?
Certainly.
Profiteering
asked the Prime Minister whether, in connection with the Government announcement that profiteering in food is to be punished by imprisonment, any Statutes or Regulations under the Defence of the Realm Act can be named as enabling such imprisonment to be inflicted by legal process; if so, what Statute or Regulation will be relied upon; if not, whether the general powers of the Government to intern dangerous persons without trial will be used; and whether the proposed methods against profiteering will be extended to cases where large profits have been, or may be, made out of Army contracts, etc.?
I have been asked to reply. The hon. Member presumably refers to Lord Rhondda's statement that where illegal profits had been made he would press for imprisonment in cases of sufficient gravity. That statement followed upon an announcement of his intention to fix prices for essential foodstuffs at every stage. This fixing of prices will be effected by an Order or Orders under the Defence of the Realm Regulations, and the charging of prices in excess of those fixed will render the offender liable to fine or imprisonment, or both.
Will the Government give an early day for discussing the question of profiteering?
The hon. Member must give notice of that question.
Munitions
Typists' Salaries
asked the Minister of Munitions whether there are any typists in his Department of from seventeen to nineteen years of age who are paid £3 a week on going into his Department direct from school; and, if so, will he say whether these obtained such appointments because they were relatives of Civil servants already in the service of his Department?
No, Sir.
Questions
Housing of Working Classes After War
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is in a position to make any statement as to the policy of the Government on the housing of the working classes after the War; and whether the Government are making adequate preparations to carry out such policy?
The Government have come to the conclusion that during a period after the War it will be necessary to afford financial assistance to local authorities from public funds for the purpose of securing the erection with as little delay as possible of a number of houses for the working classes. I have addressed a letter to local authorities in England and Wales communicating this decision and asking them for detailed information as to housing needs; the question of what can be done to revive private enterprise in housebuilding is receiving my earnest attention.
Workmen's Trains (Taaf Vale Railway Company)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will endeavour to get the Taff Vale Railway Company to grant greater convenience to the workmen who travel between Abercynon and Aberdare by putting on special workmen's coaches on each of their trains; and whether he is aware that the colliers have to wait about for hours, often in wet clothes, and that such conditions are conducive to ill-health and loss of work?
I am in communication with the railway company on this matter, and I will write to the hon. Gentleman upon receipt of their reply.
Representation of the People Bill
asked the Prime Minister when it is expected to consider the inclusion of Ireland in the Representation of the People Bill; if he is aware that any attempt to deprive Ireland of the benefits of the Bill will be resented by all classes in Ireland; and can he now state Ireland's position in the Bill?
I can only refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave to him on Wednesday, the 18th of July.
asked the Home Secretary by what authority the Boundary Commissioners have proceeded on the assumption that the number of members to which a county is entitled under the Representation of the People Bill is determined by deducting the population of the boroughs in any county from the total population of the county and not by assigning to each county as a whole a member for each 70,000 of its inhabitants and a member for such fraction of 70,000 remaining over as is laid down in the Instructions issued to them?
The general Rules in accordance with which the Commissioners are instructed to proceed are applicable equally to counties and boroughs. It would not, therefore, seem to be within the Instructions issued to the Commissioners to adopt the procedure suggested by the hon. and gallant Member.
May I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman what he means by the answer. Does he mean that, as a matter of fact, the position of the counties is considered after the boroughs are deducted?
I think the boroughs must be deducted and the balance treated as the county.
Advances of Public Money (Firms and Companies)
asked the Prime Minister whether he is now able to state the amount of public money that has been advanced to firms and companies since the commencement of the War?
Apart from the sums advanced under schemes for the restoration of credit at the commencement of the War, the total advances out of Votes of Parliament to private concerns (including firms and companies) by way of loan repayable in cash since the outbreak of war, amount to approximately £46,000,000, of which about £27,500,000 has been repaid to date.
Does my right hon. Friend see any objection to the issue of a White Paper showing the firms who have been given public money?
I will consider that, but I think that it is open to objection.
What security, if any, does the Government ask for these advances, and what has been lost in these advances?
The answer given does not imply that there was any loss. More than half has already been repaid. As I have already said, the bulk of these advances were a necessity given to increase the supply of munitions.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the War Office has already foreclosed on several firms for failing to make good their promises? Is there any loss in that matter?
Prime Minister's Secretariat
asked the Prime Minister the names of the gentlemen employed as secretaries in the Prime Minister's secretariat; and if he will also give the number of clerks and other persons employed in the same secretariat?
The names of the gentlemen employed as secretaries in the Prime Minister's secretariat are as follows:
Ministry of Reconstruction
asked the Prime Minister if Viscount Haldane is, or is about to be, nominated chairman of one of the Sub-committees apponited to consider problems of reconstruction after the War?
I cannot add anything to the reply which I gave the hon. Member on Friday last.
Am I to understand that these matters are kept secret and treated as confidential?
Yes. I have explained more than once that from the beginning these Committees, their constitution, and terms of reference, have been regarded as confidential. I think at right that they should be.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman the reasons for which they are confidential? Is it because it is desired to withhold the information from the people of this country, or because it is desired to withhold information of value and comfort to the enemy?
No; it is because the Government intended that these Committees should be set up to advise them.
Now that the Government are constituting a Ministry of Reconstruction, does not the right hon. Gentleman see his way to modify the position by publishing to the country the machinery of the Ministry?
If the hon. Gentleman will help in getting through the Bill he will have an opportunity of putting a question.
I will put down some Amendments.
Are these Sub-committees to come under the direction of the Ministry of Reconstruction?
Certainly.
Defence of the Realm Act
asked the Prime Minister whether it is proposed that any action should be taken, under the Defence of the Realm Act, against newspapers which wilfully publish misleading statements purporting to be based on official reports and circulated to create a spirit of over-confidence throughout this country which is detrimental to the successful prosecution of this War?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. I am not aware of any newspaper against which criminal proceedings could properly be taken in respect of an excess of optimism.
If I bring definite cases to the notice of the right hon. Gentleman, will he take some action?
I will consider cases if the hon. Gentleman brings them to my notice.
Russia (Leninist Movement)
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the fact that considerable sums had been sent from Germany for the assistance of the Leninist movement in Russia through the Scandinavian banks; and whether he will take steps to prevent the peace-at-any-price party in this country from obtaining similar help from Germany for the purpose of weakening the determination of our people to continue the War to a successful conclusion?
There appears little doubt that certain extremists agitators in Russia were furnished with funds from enemy sources, but the hon. Member may rest assured that His Majesty's Government will take every precaution to guard against similar action being taken in this country.
Ministerial Motor Cars
asked the Prime Minister how many Members of the Government, if any, are provided with motor cars at the public expense; and, if so, will he state the Ministers who have this privilege?
I am informed that all members of the War Cabinet and the Secretary of State for War have the power to call on cars from the War Office pool when required on business.
Is this privilege confined to members of the War Cabinet and the Secretary for War, or does it extend to the Army Council?
The question on the Paper is about Ministers. I do not know as to others.
Why are these cars so large and of such high power? Could not economy be practised in this respect?
Does my right hon. Friend deny that at least two Undersecretaries have a car waiting for them in Palace Yard every afternoon?
This is the first I have heard of it. I am surprised. I did not know that fact.
I shall be glad to supply the right hon. Gentleman with the facts.
What is a Minister?
Scientific Experts
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many of the scientific men of international, eminence that are in the permanent service of the Government enjoy a salary equal to that proposed in the Estimates for an administrative non-scientific secretary in connection with the new Department of Scientific and Industrial Research?
Information as to the salaries of permanent appointments, scientific and other, in the public service is contained in the Civil Service Estimates, but I am afraid I am not in a position to determine the international eminence of the several persons in receipt of such salaries.
Will the right hon. Gentleman have this question looked into again, on the ground that the status of the scientific man has its bearing on the amount?
I do not know what the hon. Gentleman means. The value of the scientific man is recognised by everybody. I do not think that it depends entirely on the salary paid.
Is it not right that you should consider the status they hold?
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will get the information out of the Civil Service Estimates, before he arrives at the conclusion that they are not properly paid.
Intermediate Education Board (Ireland)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the Report of the Intermediate Education Board for Ireland for 1916, in which the Board sets forth the great financial injustice under which intermediate education in Ireland has suffered for many years and the urgent need for a large increase in the grant for that purpose; and whether, in fixing the amount of the Supplementary Estimate, he will give full consideration to the facts set forth in the Report of the Board?
My right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary has already answered that an eqivalent Grant will be provided for the purposes of secon- dary education in Ireland. I have no doubt that in framing his proposals for the allocation of this Grant, due consideration will be given to the recommendations in the Report to which the hon. Member refers.
Loans to Allies and Dominions
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what rate of interest is being paid on the money lent to our Allies and our Dominions?
The rates have varied according to the financial position at different times, and I do not think it would be right to make them public.
Petrol Supplies
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received complaints to the effect that the apportionment of petrol is unfair as between different persons and interests; whether he is satisfied that the existing organisation is reasonably adequate to give due weight to the merits of different claims; and whether he is prepared to appoint small committees of local referees who would be able to examine complaints and make readjustments with full knowledge of local needs and conditions?
The shortage of petrol supplies for civil and industrial needs has necessitated the imposition of restrictions on all classes of users, and complaints have naturally been received of the inadequacy of the quantities of petrol licensed. I am satisfied that the existing organisation is able to control the apportionment of petrol fairly as between different persons and interests. The assistance and advice of local bodies is already obtained where necessary in dealing with the examination of complaints, and in these circumstances I do not think the appointment of local referees is required.
Mercantile Marine (Insurance)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether there is a Government scheme for insurance of shipping losses due to enemy submarines; whether the costs of this scheme fall in any way upon the Budget or Vote of Credit expenditure; and, if so, whether he can without danger disclose the amount paid during the first three months of the financial year, or alternatively, can say whether the amount paid is more or less than the estimate?
A Government scheme for the insurance of ships and cargoes against war risks has been in operation since the outbreak of war, and any excess of losses over premiums has to be met out of public funds. The losses so far exceed the premiums, but it is not desirable to publish any detailed figures at present.
Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that when the ships are not on full requisition for the Admiralty, the owners have to bear the cost of insurance and the loss of the vessels themselves by a system of mutual insurance through war risks associations, and that during the period in question the premiums have amounted to 38 per cent.?
I am not aware of those particulars. I have simply replied to the question addressed to me.
The hon. Gentleman has not replied to the question whether the amount paid is more or less than the estimate.
I think I have answered that in my reply.
Does not the hon. Gentleman see that the answer he has given implies that the Government, or public funds, bore the cost of the loss of vessels, when, as a matter of fact, it was the owners themselves that bore it?
I think the reply I have given does bear the construction that the public funds have to meet the loss incurred under this scheme. Any representations which the hon. Gentleman makes outside that will receive my attention.
House of Commons (an "Undignified Scuffle")
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that two Members of the House of Commons had a fight in Palace Yard on Wednesday evening last at 10.30 and were parted by the police; and whether, seeing that this disturbance of the peace and use of profane language took place in the precincts of a Royal palace, he will say if it is proposed that a prosecution shall be instituted as would be done in the case of other persons who committed such breaches of the law?
I regret to say that on the date mentioned there was a short and an undignified scuffle in Palace Yard between two Members of the House, but no profane language was heard. The Statute of Henry VIII., under which any person found guilty of malicious striking in the King's Palace whereby blood was shed was to have his right hand striken off, and to be condemned to imprisonment for life, was repealed in the year 1828. Any charge of assault would have to be made by the person aggrieved, and, in the circumstances, it is not proposed that the police should take any proceedings.
Winchester Prison Chaplain
asked the Home Secretary whether any complaints have been received about the conduct of the chaplain at Winchester prison; whether he is aware that he sneers at the religious beliefs of conscientious objectors and of Nonconformists in particular; whether he is aware that he told a conscientious objector that Christ would spit at him, and that he refers to conscientious objectors as vermin and lice; and if he will make inquiries into this person's conduct from conscientious objectors to whose spiritual needs he has ministered?
I have received no complaints against the chaplain of His Majesty's Prison, Winchester, and I am satisfied that the allegations made in the question grossly misrepresent the language used by the reverend gentleman to prisoners under his care.
Has the right hon. Gentleman inquired of any of the persons to whom this Christian gentleman addressed himself, or of the Nonconformist chaplain?
I have made no inquiries.
Made no inquiries, and yet you deny the statements!
Post Office Sorters
asked the Postmaster-General if he will say what is the total pay and allowances of temporary sorters; what is the total pay and allowances of permanent sorters; and what difference is there in their respective duties and qualifications?
The pay, including war bonus, of temporary male sorters in London ranges from 34s. to 40s. a week, according to qualifications. The great majority are receiving 40s. a week. The pay of permanent male sorters varies according to age and length of service. Thus the pay, including war bonus, for a permanent sorter entering at twenty years of age is 33s.; after three years' efficient service the total pay is 39s. At the maximum of the scale the total pay is 70s. a week. Officers in receipt of the maximum pay are, of course, men of long service. It is not practicable to institute a close comparison between the duties and qualifications of the temporary and permanent staff. Generally speaking, the temporary men are performing work of less value than that performed by the permanent staff. They are not required to pass such high standards of sorting, and there are certain special duties proper to sorters on which they are not employed at all.
Corn Production Bill (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he will say when it is proposed to set up a wages board in Ireland; and if he will take steps to see that workers in Ireland will be paid a minimum wage of not less than 30s. per week?
As I stated on the 19th July, in answer to the hon. Member for North Meath, the Corn Production Bill provides the statutory authority for a wages board for agricultural labour. When the Bill becomes law I hope the provisions as regards the wages board will at once be put into operation in Ireland. The hon. Member has no doubt observed that the Bill provides for an adequate rate of wages in Ireland. What amount may be fixed will be settled by the authority provided to deal with the matter.
May I ask if the suggestion is that there is to be a head board to be set up in Dublin, or are there to be different county sub-boards that are to fix the rate of wages in the different counties, or is there to be one universal rate for the whole country?
No universal rate is contemplated certainly, and as the hon. Member knows one of the difficulties of dealing with the matter in Ireland is the diversity of the rates. Close attention will be paid to that.
Would not the easiest way be to make 25s. the minimum wage?
That was not the result, to my mind, of the inquiries I made about the matter. If the adequate wage should be 25s. it would be provided for by the Act.
I will raise the matter on the Amendments to the Bill.
Captain F. R. Whyte
asked the Home Secretary if he will allow Captain F. R. Whyte to return to Ireland; if he is aware that Captain Whyte gave an undertaking not to go to Ireland; if he is aware that the undertaking was fulfilled; and, having regard to the general amnesty in Ireland, will he now allow him to proceed to Ireland?
Captain Whyte gave an undertaking not to return to Ireland, which he has fulfilled. I regret that after consulting my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary I do not see my way to relieve him from his pledge.
Higher Education (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland (1) when he proposes to give an opportunity for discussing higher or secondary education in Ireland; (2) whether he will appoint a small Committee to report on the urgent needs of secondary or higher education; whether he will place on that Committee practical men who have an intimate knowledge of agriculture, industries, and labour, so that a system of education may be produced which will train our children to be effective citizens capable of develop- ing the resources of their own country; (3) whether he will appoint a small Committee, having representative farmers, industrial and commercial men, engineers, and representatives of organised labour, to report on the urgent needs of higher education in Ireland?
I am not at present in a position to lay before the House proposals with regard to secondary or higher education in Ireland. The hon. Member's suggestion of a Committee of practical men to discuss the needs of the country ought, J think, to be considered when such proposals are submitted.
Public Accounts Committee
Report brought up, and read, with Minutes of Evidence; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 123.]
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to,—
Amendments to—
Ashton-under-Lyne Corporation Bill [ Lords ],
North Cheshire Water Bill [ Lords ],
Caerphilly Urban District Council Bill [ Lords ],
Colonial Bank Bill, without Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Citizens of the city and county of Newcastle-upon-Tyne to convey to trustees for the Royal Victoria Infirmary at Newcastle-upon-Tyne for the sick and lame poor of the said city and county, and of the counties of Northumberland and Durham, a portion of the Castle Leazes for an extension of the said infirmary; and for other purposes." [Royal Victoria Infirmary, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Bill [ Lords. ]
Private Business
Royal Victoria Infirmary, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Bill [ Lords ],
Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
New Members Sworn
The Right Hon. Sir Eric Campbell Geddes, K.C.B., for the Borough of Cambridge.
The Right Hon. Edwin Samuel Montagu, for the County of Cambridge (Western or Chesterton Division).
Orders of the Day
Business of the House
May I ask the Leader of the House whether he can tell us now when he proposes to take the Supplementary Estimates issued this morning in relation to the salary of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University?
I do not intend to take it before the Adjournment.
Ordered, "That the Proceedings on the Corn Production Bill, if under discussion at Eleven of the clock this night, be not interrupted under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ Mr. Bonar Law. ]
Corn Production Bill
Considered in Committee.—[ Progress, 23rd July. ]
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 8.—(Regulations.)
(1) The Board of Agriculture and fisheries shall, in addition to any special power to make Regulations given to them under this Act, have power to make Regulations generally for the purposes of carrying this Act into effect and in particular—
( a ) for prescribing the manner in which claims for payment under Part I. of this Act are to be made, and the evidence to be required in support of any such claim; and
( b ) for enabling the Agricultural Wages Board to define the benefits or advantages which may be reckoned as payment of wages in lieu of payment in cash, and the value at which they are to be so reckoned, and for enabling that board, on the application of any employer or workman, to determine any question which may arise as to the value of any such benefits or advantages, or generally as to any contract of employment so far as the application of the provisions of this Act thereto is concerned; and
( c ) for dealing with references under Part III. of this Act and the procedure thereon and the costs of any-such reference.
(2) Any Regulation made under this Act shall be laid before each House of Parliament forthwith, and if an Address is presented to His Majesty by either House of Parliament within the next subsequent twenty-one days on which that House has sat after any such Regulation is laid before it praying that the Regulation may be annulled, His Majesty in Council may annul the Regulation, and it shall thenceforth be void, but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done thereunder.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), paragraph ( b ), to leave out the word "enabling" ["for enabling the Agricultural Wages Board to define"], and to insert instead thereof the word "requiring."
We want to make it obligatory upon the Agricultural Wages Board to define the benefits or advantages.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), paragraph ( b ), after the word "reckoned" ["at which they are to be so reckoned"], to insert the words "and for limiting or prohibiting the reckoning of benefits or advantages as payment of wages in lieu of cash."
This Amendment is moved in accordance with the promise made by the Government that power should be given to limit, and eventually to abolish, all allowances. We think that these words will effect that purpose.
I understood the President of the Board of Agriculture to say that he intended to abolish all allowances. I want to say a few words upon that, because I think there is a very strong reason against the abolition of allowances. Allowances are a very important part of the agreements made in Scotland.
I did not say we intended to abolish allowances, but we give the Agricultural Wages Board power, if they like, to limit or prohibit allowances.
I understood that it was the right hon. Gentleman's ultimate intention to abolish allowances. That is an important matter so far as Scotland is concerned. I take it is something more than merely to enable the Agricultural Wages Board to consider the question of allowances, because the board has power now to define "the benefits or advantages which may be reckoned as payment of wages in lieu of payment in cash and the value at which they are to be so reckoned." What is this addition that is to be given? It is "for limiting or prohibiting the reckoning of benefits or advantages as payment of wages in lieu of cash." The intention there is to give the board the power of saying there shall be none of these allowances. That is going very far. The question of allowances is now so ingrained in our agricultural system, and the provision regarding allowances so varied all over the United Kingdom, that it would be a very serious matter if it were intended to abolish those allowances, and it would really work very inequitably indeed. I have in my hand a list of allowances made in various counties in Scotland, and they are very substantial. In such counties as Inverness, Nairn, and Aberdeen the value of those allowances is calculated on a very moderate estimate to be as much as 15s. a week, and in other counties it is as much as 12s.; but then it comes down very considerably in counties like Elgin, Berwick, Edinburgh, Haddington, and Dumbarton. In all those counties the allowance is entirely different, and it is a very moderate figure. No doubt in regard to England the, whole system is in a great degree of uncertainty. There is no definiteness about the allowances. They do not form part of the contract of wages, and are therefore very difficult to ascertain and difficult to enforce. That is not the position in Scotland, where a definite contract is made, and the allowances are part of the wages, and can be sued for if they are not paid. That is quite a different thing from the very fluid allowances made in England, where they may take the form of an allowance of milk below cost price. There may be some reason for those differences, but for us to press an Amendment of this kind to abolish, or to give power to abolish, all these allowances is really going very far, and I urge that it would be a great mistake if we sanctioned the abolition of these allowances.
4.0 P.M.
We must assume that people will act with a certain amount of common sense. We have to provide for the case which the right hon. Gentleman said he would deal with in regard to prohibiting the inclusion of the allowances cus- tomarily given for beer or cider as an equivalent of wages. My right hon. Friend said he would provide that the Wages Board should be prohibited from allowing beer or cider as money value, and I think this is quite a definite and obvious-way of taking statutory power to secure that. There is nothing in the words proposed to show that it is intended that no allowances should be reckoned as equivalent to wages, but it is quite right to take power to prohibit the reckoning of benefits or advantages as payment of wages in lieu of cash.
This Amendment will put this power in the hands of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries. [HON MEMBERS: "No! "] As I read the Amendment, if the President will look at it he will see that it will put that power in the hands of the Board of Agriculture and' Fisheries, and if it is intended to put the power in the hands of the Agricultural-Wages Board, then it does not read properly. I believe the President means to put the power in the hands of the Agricultural Wages Board, and I think it is very much better that it should be in their hands.
The Amendment comes in after the word "reckoned," and therefore it is governed by the first words of the Sub-section "for requiring the Agricultural Wages Board to define the benefits or advantages," and do certain things, "or for limiting or prohibiting the reckoning of benefits or advantages. I think it is quite plain.
The words are "or for limiting or prohibiting." Surely they ought to be "and to limit or prohibit." If that is the intention of the Government I think the words I have suggested should be inserted.
I think the hon. and gallant Member for Bridgwater is right. The Board of Agriculture are to have power to make Regulations for limiting or prohibiting, and they confer those powers on the Agricultural Wages Board.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consent to alter the words and make them "to limit or prohibit."
I do not want us to be led away from the material point.
It has often been stated that it was desirable to have the power to limit or prohibit the calculation of allowances in the minimum wage. This Amendment gives the power which the Committee expressly asked for, and invests the Agricultural Board with that power. Under this Amendment it will be open to them in suitable cases to prohibit the inclusion of certain allowances or such as they may think fit as part of the minimum wage. I hope the Amendment will be passed in its present form.
I think this question of drafting is one of extreme importance. The President of the Board of Agriculture has evidently not given due attention to the point which was raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Bridgwater (Colonel Sanders). The Clause as it stands provides that
"The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries shall in addition to any special power to make Regulations given to them under this Act have power to make Regulations generally for the purposes of carrying this Act into effect and in particular"—
and then follows paragraphs ( a ) and ( b ). We have altered the second word of paragraph ( b ) from "enabling" to "requiring," and this Amendment comes in after the word "reckoned" in paragraph (b) and inserts the words "and for limiting or prohibiting the reckoning of benefits or advantages as payment of wages in lieu of cash." Obviously the Amendment means that the Board of Agriculture will make Regulations for limiting or prohibiting the reckoning of benefits or advantages as payment of wages in lieu of cash. Obviously that was not intended, and the speech of the President was directed to showing that it would be for the Wages Board to have this power. Instead of the word "enabling" we have inserted the word "requiring." Therefore, in the matter of definition of benefits, it is an obligation upon the Wages Board, whereas if this is to be left to the Wages Board, obviously the Government do not intend it to be an obligation but simply a power. I suggest to the Government that in this case instead of the words they have put on the Paper they should insert the words "and for enabling that board to limit or prohibit." If the Amendment is so altered, I think it will carry out the intention of the Government, and at the same time meet what is the general sense of the House.
What we really want is to give this power to the Wages Board, and I think the words suggested by my hon. Friend will carry out that intention. With regard to the point raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Camborne (Mr. Acland), we have promised to prohibit the treating of certain fluid allowances, such as beer and cider as payment in lieu of wages. We intend to deal with that matter by our Regulations and circular letters. You cannot put into the Act that it is illegal to do an illegal thing, and that is our difficulty, but the House may rely upon it that that point will be met by the Regulations and the circular letters from the Wages Board.
I think we have now got back to the merits of the Amendment, and I suggest that my right hon. Friend might consider the word "prohibit" a little more. The Amendment will prohibit the reckoning of all benefits or advantages, and if you strike out the words "or prohibiting" I think the Amendment would be quite strong enough for all the questions which the Board of Agriculture desire to limit. Of course, you could not absolutely prohibit the whole thing. If you leave in the word "prohibiting" there will be some Wages Board who will prohibit everything, and I think that would be a very strong thing to do. I suggest that every advantage that is desired would be secured if you simply strike out the words "or prohibiting" and let the Amendment read "limiting the reckoning of benefits or advantages."
I am surprised to hear the arguments which have been used in regard to this Amendment. From what has been said one would assume that it is a splendid thing for the agricultural worker to have part of his wages in kind and only a part in cash. [HON. MEMBERS: "So it is!"] That, at any rate, is not the view of the agricultural worker. [An HON. MEMBER: "Yes, it is!"] It is not the opinion which has been expressed to me by those who organise these matters. The view that I take, at any rate, is that it is better to treat the agricultural labourer as a man and not as a horse. [An HON. MEMBERS: "Does a horse drink cider?"] The whole question is one which has given a good deal of trouble to workers in all parts of the country, and wherever the men have been sufficiently well organised they have insisted and demanded and secured that the whole of their remuneration shall be paid in cash. [An HON. MEMBER: "NO!"] This has been done so that the workers may be enabled to buy just what they please with the money they earn. I suggest that there is nothing in this Amendment to prevent anybody who employs agricultural workers—
The hon. Member is now going back to a question which has been decided at an earlier stage of this Bill. We have decided not to insert the word "cash," but to deal with it in something like the form in which it appears in this Clause.
The only point I am arguing is that I desire that the Wages Board shall have power to prohibit. It is no argument to say that there may be hardship arising in certain circumstances. We do not know that any particular Board will prohibit, but at any rate it should be left open to them to decide these questions on their merits. In my judgment the men have a right to receive in cash the whole of their wages, just the same as workers in other industries have succeeded in winning the right to receive their wages in cash according to law. I want that power retained in the hands of the Wages Board.
I think there is some little misunderstanding as to what will be the effect of this Amendment. Taking it in connection with the text as it stands, there is no real possibility of interfering with allowances, and they will stand just the same. The allowances in Scotland will still stand, and the only effect of the Amendment will be that the Wages Board will have the power to determine whether certain cases should be taken in reduction of the 25s. That is the whole point, so that really this Amendment is an extension of liberty to the working man instead of a curtailment. It is not interfering with these allowances, but is merely giving the Wages Board power to limit or prohibit what the farmer might contend should be used as a reduction of wages.
I think I see what the Committee desires. The whole of the Committee appear to agree with the suggestion of the hon. Member for North-West Lanark (Mr. Pringle), but there is one difficulty which perhaps he has not observed. There is a Government Amendment two lines further down to leave out the word "that" ["and for enabling that Board"], and to insert instead thereof the words, "the Agricultural Wages." He will see at once the difficulty of using the words "that Board," leaving it ambiguous as to whether it is the Agricultural Wages Board or the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries. Perhaps he will look at the point.
It would only be necessary to insert the words "Agricultural Wages Board" instead of the words "that Board." You would have to repeat it every time.
I think the better way would be to withdraw the present Amendment, and move it in that substituted form.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, after the word "reckoned," to insert the words "and for enabling the Agricultural Wages Board to limit or prohibit the reckoning of benefits or advantages as payment of wages in lieu of cash."
Opinions differ locally as to whether these allowances are or are not an advantage to the agricultural labourer, and it is only reasonable to leave it to the local tribunal to determine the question. That is what we propose to do.
Does the right hon. Gentleman propose that the Wages Boards shall have power in the area over which they operate?
The Central Wages Board.
It is the same thing, though the machinery may be a little different. They may work through sub-committees, but after all it is the sub-committee which will regulate the particular area concerned. Although the order may be issued from the Central Board, it will really be the sub-committee that will settle it. Am I to understand that in that area the Wages Board will have power to say that all wages shall be paid in cash, if that is its wish, and that no individual agricultural labourer and no individual farmer, even though the two are willing, may pay on the one hand and receive on the other hand half the wages in cash and half in kind, always supposing that the minimum wage, whatever that is, 25s. or 30s., is adhered to? I attach some little importance to this point, and I shall be glad to get an explanation from my right hon. Friend.
I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to leave out the words "or prohibit."
This ought to be cleared up, and we should clear it up by leaving out the words "or prohibit." It is evidently the inclusion of those words in the Amendment which suggest to my right hon. Friend and to many others that the whole system of reckoning benefits or advantages may be done away with. There is no opposition from anybody to this being limited in any way. As far as I can see, the Committee is unanimous about limiting, but I do not think anybody means to prohibit. Limiting comes to practically just the same thing, and it secures all that the Government desires. At any rate, to bring the matter to an issue, I move to omit the words "or prohibit."
I am answering on behalf of the President of the Board of Agriculture. Under the Bill there is one Central Wages Board, and there are district committees which make recommendations to that Board. The object of Clause 8 is to enable the Board of Agriculture to make Regulations on a thousand and one different matters—directing or assisting the Wages Board to carry out the details of their work. The point we are now considering is that of giving power to the Board of Agriculture to make Regulations requiring the Wages Board to do certain things. Under the procedure complete elasticity is preserved, because the Board of Agriculture retains power to make Regulations from time to time. Those Regulations may contain a provision either in regard to limiting or in regard to prohibiting the reckoning of advantages or benefits as payment of wages in lieu of cash. It is therefore quite impossible to answer offhand here and now as to what power the local district wages committees will have through the Central Board under Regulations which have not yet been made. The real answer is that complete power is reserved to the Board of Agriculture to make such Regulations as they think fit to enable the position to be dealt with, and, in regard to some specific allowance, to prohibit it from being taken into account.
Or all allowances.
Theoretically, there is power to prohibit all, but for practical purposes the prohibition, at any rate, in the near future, would be used in regard to some specific thing, probably in some specific district. This elastic method of procedure is an enormous advantage, because this House, through the Regulations being laid upon the Table, will always retain a general control over the progress of this new wages machinery which we are setting into operation. That machinery from time to time can be moulded through the Regulations of the Board of Agriculture, and this House will always keep a control and check upon its progress. Consequently, there is no fear of any steps taken now landing us into any particular hole.
As I understand it, the Amendment will become part of an Act of Parliament, and any Regulation laid upon the Table cannot override what is already part of an Act of Parliament. I therefore do not follow my hon. and learned Friend when he says that such Regulations will protect us so far as regards this special Amendment.
My right hon. Friend is not quite so quick as usual this afternoon, but if he had followed me a little more closely I think he would have appreciated the point. Under this Clause, there is power to make Regulations for the purpose of carrying the Act into effect, and, in particular, for requiring the Agricultural Wages Board to define the benefits or advantages which may be reckoned. Then it goes on "and for enabling the Agricultural Wages Board to limit or prohibit" certain things. The Regulations are within the discretion of the Board of Agriculture, subject to the control of Parliament. The Board may put in those Regulations any provisions which come within the section as amended by the proposed Amendment, namely, for enabling the Agricultural Wages Board to limit or prohibit the reckoning of wages or advantages as payment of wages in lieu of cash. That keeps complete elasticity within the limits of that provision.
As I understand it, if this particular Amendment is put in the Board of Agriculture will have power to make Regulations prohibiting or limiting the amount of money to be paid in kind, without any reference to this House at all
Hear, hear.
It is part of the Act of Parliament. Under those circumstances, it will not be necessary for them to come to the House and lay Regulations upon the Table to do that which this House has already authorised them to do.
Clause 8, Sub-section (2) provides that
"Any Regulation made under this Act shall be laid before each House of Parliament forthwith, and if an address is presented to His Majesty by either House of Parliament within the next subsequent twenty-one days on which this House has sat after any such Regulation is laid before it, praying that the Regulation may be annulled, His Majesty in Council may annul the Regulation."
Therefore, the House will always be completely seized of the whole of the machinery which is brought into operation and carried out under Regulations made by the Board of Agriculture.
Only for twenty-one days.
This is a very important point. I am not a lawyer, and I may be quite wrong, but as I read it, Sub-section (2) applies to Sub-section (1), which reads:
"The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries shall, in addition to any special power to make Regulations given to them under this Act, have power to make Regulations generally for the purposes of carrying this Act into effect."
Then Sub-section (2) applies to that Subsection. All those Regulations are to be laid upon the Table. Sub-section (1) goes on to say
"and in particular,"
and it sets forth those Regulations which they may make. We are going to put in words that they may do so and so, and we are going to authorise this special Regulation. If, when it is put in, the House may cancel it, why put it in at all? I may be wrong, but it seems to me that once it is put in it will be held that the House has authorised it, and that we cannot alter it.
On a point of Order. May I ask in what capacity the hon. and learned Member (Mr. L. Scott) is answering for the President of the Board of Agriculture? If, in an important matter like this, we are really going to have a declaration from the Government, I think it ought to have even more weight than it receives coming from my hon. and learned Friend.
That is a domestic point, and not a public point of order.
Until the President of the Board of Agriculture can express a view on the Amendment, I should like to make an attempt to see whether the view I express is one with which he agrees. We are now on the question to leave out of the proposed Amendment the words "or prohibit." I believe the retention of those words is necessary. The Amendment, as I understand it, enables the Board of Agriculture to make Regulations enabling the Agricultural Wages Board to limit or prohibit. Is it not quite possible that under that some district committee may wish not only to limit the amount of the wages for which an equivalent in allowances shall be given, but also to prohibit the reckoning of any allowances as having an equivalent in cash? If any district committee wanted to do that—and there are districts in England where farmers and labourers by common consent are coming gradually to the idea that it would be more businesslike and satisfactory all round to pay a cash wage and to let any arrangement between the employer and the employed as to privileges to be an addition to the minimum cash wage; that, I think, is the answer to the right hon. Gentleman who spoke just now—or if a farmer wanted to go on giving what he used to give the labourer in the form of allowances in that form, it would be perfectly legal for him to continue to do it, so long as he paid the minimum wage fixed by the Wages Board in cash. If they said that the wage was to be paid in cash, there would be nothing whatever to prevent part of the remuneration being given in allowances if it was over and above the minimum they said was to be paid in cash. If they say that they wish the minimum wage they laid down to be paid wholly in cash and not at all in the form of allowances, we ought to give them the power to do that by saying that Regulations should be capable of being made enabling the Wages Board not only to limit but to prohibit the reckoning of any allowances as having an equivalent in wages. If that is so, I want to keep in the words "prohibit," because it is a perfectly legitimate thing for the Wages Board to do. If that is the right meaning of the Amendment, I shall have to oppose the Amendment to the Amendment.
I hope the Committee "will take the view that the Amendment to the proposed Amendment is a matter of which we might get rid immediately. The subject has been under discussion in one form or another for three-quarters of an hour, and the immediate subject-matter of the Amendment to the Amendment is a point upon which the Committee is clearly opposed to the view put forward by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lough).
I do not think so.
I can only use my own judgment as to the course of the Debate. The point is a simple one. I am dealing with the Amendment to the Amendment. The point is whether the power of prohibition shall be retained in addition to the power of limitation. If I am in order in making any observations in answer to the point raised by one hon. Member as to the Regulations, I would say that if he will look at Clause 8, Subsection (1), paragraphs ( a ) and ( b ), he will see at once what he suggests is really not necessary. In the framework of the Bill all that you require is power to make Regulations generally, with some sort of guidance from Parliament to make particular Regulations with regard to limiting and prohibiting. All these Regulations can be made under the words
"have power to make Regulations generally."
Sub-section (2) of the Clause really contemplates that all the Regulations referred to, both general and particular, come under the same provision as to being laid before Parliament.
They all come under the same procedure?
Yes; all of them.
I desire to say a few words on this Amendment to the proposed Amendment because I first raised the question as to the word "prohibit." I was assured that the Board of Agriculture was not going to have the power of prohibition, but was going to give the Agricultural Wages Board only the power of prohibition. Now I understand it is the Board of Agriculture as well as the Wages Board. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO!"] So I understand it. The only way of preventing that construction arising is to leave out the words "or prohibit," as suggested by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Islington (Mr. Lough). I attach great importance to the word "prohibit," because I want to protect the agricultural labourer in Scotland. The hon. Member for Barrow (Mr. C. Duncan) has made a general statement that everyone wants payment in cash. I do not think he has informed himself in regard to the position of organised agricultural labour in Scotland. I have to-day consulted organised agricultural labour in Scotland through its representative here, and he has informed me that there is the strongest objection among Scottish agricultural labourers to the abolition of any of the perquisites. I think the Committee ought to know what they are. In Inverness, Moray, Nairn, Banff, and Aberdeenshire they are: milk, 12 gills daily; meal, 65 stones per annum; potatoes, from ½ ton to 1 ton per annum; and coal, 1 to 2 tons per annum, or peat or firewood. The value of these perquisites is calculated at 15s. a week. In this time of rising prices, one can see the immense importance to the agricultural labourer of having something on which he can rely, the price of which does not go up. [An Hon. MEMBER: "What is the cash wage?"] The cash wage is from £60 to £65 per annum. Here you have the most important items of food secured to these men daily by this arrangement of allowances. The suggestion is that they should be prohibited. All the difficulty can be got rid of by leaving out the words "or prohibit," and I shall certainly support the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lough) if he goes to a Division. It is much too risky to leave open a matter of such vital importance to the working men. Under the conditions which obtain in Scotland you do not find a shop near every farm. Some farms are from ten up to as many as thirty miles away from a shop. The farmer and the labourers have to cooperate together to get these arrangements, and it is a form of co-operation which benefits both. I speak with some knowledge of the matter, having made inquiry into it. It is one to which the agricultural labourers of Scotland attach the greatest importance, and I do not want them put to any risk at all by words of this kind.
I should not have risen to speak on this question, because it is quite clear that the last speaker was wrong in his ideas on the subject, were it not that I want to protest against any Private Member getting up and saying that he is speaking in the name of the Minister.
May I say that I was only dealing with a purely legal point informally. I was not attempting to speak on behalf of the Government.
I am very sorry, but I must stick to my objection, whether the point is a legal one or not. The President of the Board of Agriculture has legal Gentlemen sitting on each side of him, one of them a Law Officer of the Crown, who has been watching this Bill. I do not think the President requires a gentleman behind him to take words out of his mouth. We cannot attach the same importance to what is said by a Private Member, as we can to what is said in the name of the Government from the Front Bench. I protest that it is perfectly irregular and wrong that any Member should state that he is speaking in the name of the Government unless he is a Member of the Government and has a seat on the Front Bench. As to the word "prohibit, it is quite clear that in Scotland they will not be under the minimum wage as set out in this Bill. They are far above it, and, therefore, cannot possibly come under it. There is no question of prohibiting them from getting benefits outside the minimum wage. All that is wanted in Scotland is to give as great latitude as possible to the Wages Board. That is where the Scottish labourer is going to get his benefit under the Bill. The wider margin you give to them in prohibiting, if they like, any particular form of bonus or any particular form of truck, as I should pre- fer to call it, would be for the benefit of the labourer. I am not going back on the question whether the minimum should be a cash minimum, because that has already been decided by the Committee. These Wages Boards are for the protection of the labourer, and we ought to give them power to knock out and prohibit, if necessary, any particular form of truck or bonus being used as a means of reducing the minimum wage they have fixed. They ought to be allowed to fix a minimum wage in cash and to prohibit anything else being reckoned as part of the wage. If they are given the liberty by this House, they will have, according to this Amendment, the power of only reducing the amount that is to be taken into consideration for milk, potatoes, cottage rent, or whatever it may be.
I do not quite understand the speech which has just been made by the hon. Member for Lichfield (Sir C. Warner). The hon. Member seemed to assume that it will be a sham and no protection to the agricultural labourer unless the wage paid to the agricultural labourer up to the minimum is paid only in cash.
No.
That, I understood, to be the argument of the hon. Gentleman. That is not the case. The Wages Board was established for the purpose of securing to the agricultural labourer an adequate living wage. The minimum is fixed at 25s., partly because the price of commodities is very high and partly because the actual wage, either in cash or kind, paid to the agricultural labourer in various counties was below what was considered by this House to be an adequate living wage. I think that is the position. Some Members, like myself and, I dare say, the hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir C. Warner), think that the wage ought to be higher than 25s. and voted for 30s., but that is not the question now. The question is, What was the Wages Board established to do? It was established to provide an adequate living wage for the agricultural labourer. We did not say, when the Clause dealing with that was passed, that the wage should be paid in cash. The Clause only secures to the man a remuneration which would give him a decent living. Now my hon. Friend wants to go further and say that not only shall this wage be adequate, but that the whole of it should be paid in cash. That is what the hon. Gentleman's argument tends to, unless I completely misunderstood him.
I said that the question of the minimum wage being paid in cash has been settled by this House, that it shall not be compulsory; but what I want to do, and what this Amendment to the Government's Amendment wishes to do, is to give the agricultural committees in the different places the power, with the sanction of the Wages Board in London, which is practically the Board of Agriculture, to make it in certain districts, if they think proper, a cash payment. If they like they may allow certain of these allowances, but they shall have the power to make the minimum wage a cash payment. It is only giving power to do that.
I do not wish to pursue the hon. Gentleman, but I would remind him that this House has decided that it is not necessary that the whole of the wages should be paid in cash.
I have said so.
I will leave that alone, but I should like to pursue the Attorney-General on this subject. As I read this Clause the Board of Agriculture is given certain powers, and some of those powers are delegated to sub-committees. They may, under Clause 8, make Regulations, and, among others, I suppose, they may make Regulations prohibiting or limiting the amount of allowances to be paid to the agricultural labourer. If I may have the attention of the Committee for one moment, as this is a very important point, they will see that it says that the Board of Agriculture may, in addition to any special powers given to them—that is, the Board of Agriculture—enable the sub-committees to prohibit or to limit the benefits and advantages, and so forth. The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries in London, therefore, may themselves issue a Regulation saying that, in a particular district the minimum wage shall be paid wholly and solely in cash. That may be a desirable power to give or it may not, but it ought to be understood that not only may the sub-committee make such a Regulation, but that the Board of Agriculture, over their heads, may issue such a Regulation. I do not think that can possibly be disputed, and there are therefore two powers in future to be in existence, either of which may said over the heads of both the farmer and the agreeing and desirous agricultural labourer, and say, "You shall not receive what you want." It is very difficult to speak when the hon. and learned Member opposite is speaking against one. Both the Board of Agriculture and the Agricultural Committees may say to the farmer and to the labourer, each of whom desires to pay and receive wages partly in cash and partly in kind, "You shall not receive this. We in London may go over the heads of all local information and order you to receive your minimum wholly in cash" — to the inconvenience of the labourer and of the farmer, and there is no redress. The hon. and learned Gentleman talked about the intervention, of the House of Commons. I have often talked, when I was on the Ministerial benches, on the same lines, but one knows that the laying of an Order on the Table for twenty-one days is a pure farce. I challenge any Member of this House who has been in it as many years as I have— and those are many—ever to recall art occasion on which either House moved an address for the amendment of a regulation put on the Table for twenty-one days. It is a pure farce. I agree it is a sort of Parliamentary security which, has been provided, but the Ministry is absolutely supreme, and it must be remembered that the Board of Agriculture, as well as the Sub-committees, will have this absolute power.
Where do you find that?
I will try to show it to the right hon. Gentleman. The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries shall in addition to any special power to make Regulations given to them—and they have under this Act special power to-make special Regulations—under this Act have power to make Regulations, etc., for requiring the Agricultural Wages Board to define and for enabling the Agricultural Wages Board to limit or prohibit the reckoning of the benefits. They may proprio motu, make such Regulations or enable the district committee to make such Regulations.
Devolution.
It is not only that. They have power, and they may devolve power. That is undoubtedly the effect. I do not say it is what the Board of Agriculture will do, but it is what the Act permits them to do.
Suppose the Agricultural Wages Board say, "We will not do it," then I say the Board of Agriculture have no power to compel them.
Am I to understand that the Board of Agriculture when it receives power to make Regulations under this Act has no power to make a Regulation to the same effect as that which the district committee refuses to do?
I say it may enable the Wages Board to do it, but cannot compel them to do it.
Have they no powers under their special powers, not under this, to make Regulations? [HON. MEMBERS: "NO!"]
This is really turning a great deal away from the Amendment to the Amendment. The only question now, let me remind the Committee, is that the Amendment proposed to which an Amendment has been moved is to add the words, "and for enabling the Agricultural Wages Board to limit or prohibit the reckoning of benefits or advantages as payment of wages in lieu of cash." To that an Amendment has been moved simply to leave out the words "or prohibit."
I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not accept the Amendment. I take the Government Amendment to be a necessary corollary to a previous decision in the Bill, where we refused to limit the remuneration to cash only. I supported that as strongly as I could, but I want also the labourer to have liberty to have cash in the future if he so prefers. First, may I just say that the Wages Board will be composed of farmers or labourers, and they will discuss what is best for the labourer, and will decide accordingly. They ought to have full powers, but if these words are taken out and limits made, if a farmer proposes some objectionable form of allowance all the power the Wages Board will have will be "to limit that. I want them to have power, if an objectionable kind of allowance is proposed, to prohibit and not merely to limit. I do press that distinction which has not been mentioned. If you take out the word "prohibit" you will debar the Wages Board from prohibiting a farmer imposing any objectionable allowance on the labourer, and I want them to have the power to prohibit it, if it is desirable.
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question again proposed, "That the words 'and for enabling the Agricultural Wages Board to limit or prohibit the reckoning of benefits or advantages as payment of wages in lieu of cash' be there inserted."
On the question that the Amendment to the proposed Amendment be withdrawn, I think the House does not quite understand the importance of this question, and I am sure the learned Attorney-General does not. We are passing a permanent Bill for agriculture. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO!"] Yes, it is practically permanent. We are discussing the whole question of Wages Boards and the wages of the whole agricultural population. You are proposing to give to the local committee power to prohibit every local arrangement. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] The Attorney-General does not shake his head.
I cannot shake it all the time.
Every social improvement that has ever happened in the world has been unpopular in its district, and if any farmers and labourers in future agree upon some new idea—I know the farmers and the labourers in the agricultural districts—it will be unpopular; the better it is the more unpopular it will be; and if you give to a small local board power to prohibit any new arrangements you are setting back and putting a very serious inconvenience and difficulty in the way of any improvement. I should just like to give the House an instance of what I think might quite easily happen. It is quite conceivable that in a district where it was not the custom a farmer might propose to give to his labourers permission to run a cow on a portion of his lands. If that was a new idea in the district it would be extremely unpopular with every farmer, and I defy anyone who knows the agricultural district to say that any proposal of that kind to give a labourer a piece of land on which to run a cow would not be prohibited by the Agricultural Wages Board if it was in a district where it was not the custom. That is the kind of thing which you are doing by this Amendment. I do appeal to my hon. Friend to go to a Division, and I do appeal to the Government to consider what they are doing when they put this into this Bill. I appeal to my hon. Friend opposite (Mr. T. Davies). I am just as much against truck as he is, and just as much in favour of paying cash wages instead of allowances, but I do say that to get in an Act of Parliament a Clause which will allow a small local committee to stop any alteration or improvement is giving small local bodies the power to resist improvement to an extent which we in this House of Commons ought not to do. The Truck Acts are a different thing altogether. They were passed by the House of Commons with the full knowledge of the Government and Opposition Benches, and the whole statesmanlike knowledge which the House of Commons possesses. That is a reasonable thing to do, but whether we should go and give up a power which we ourselves exercise, but which we only exercise with very great care and judgment, to prohibit alterations, and hand this over to small local bodies who may be prejudiced, who have all sorts of prejudices and likes and dislikes, is not an improvement, but a retrograde step of the very worst kind. I do appeal to the President of the Board of Agriculture, who I know has the thing at heart, and who, I think, does not realise what he is doing, to leave out these words, because he is starting on an evil slope, the end of which he cannot foresee, but which, I think, is an unfortunate one.
The Amendment to the proposed Amendment has been withdrawn.
5.0 P.M.
I thought the hon. Baronet was talking to the negativing of the Amendment. If that is not so and it has been withdrawn, I should like to say one word on the Amendment of the President of the Board of Agriculture. I am much obliged to the Attorney-General for his explanation, which I quite understand. I understood the right hon. Gentleman the Attorney-General to say that Section 2, Clause 8, regulates all the preceding words in that Clause, and therefore my fear on that point falls to the ground. But I would point out to the Attorney-General that Section 1, Clause 8, gives power to the Board of Agriculture to make any Regulation they like, and, therefore, whether these words are in the Bill or are not they will make these Regulations. I think that is so, and, if it is so—I would like the attention of the Committee for a moment, because this is an important point—why put the Amendment in at all? if there is already power to the Board of Agriculture to make Regulations and lay them on the Table, why put these particular words in at all? The reason why they are put in, I am afraid, is this. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman (Sir C. Hobhouse) that the power of laying Regulations on the Table, and an Address being presented, is very nearly an illusory power. It is done after eleven o'clock at night, when few Members attend, and it is very difficult to exert the House against the Government of the day on questions of that sort, and it will be still more difficult if the Government are able to say that these very powers are actually in the Act itself and they were understood at the time. The Government do not do anything without a reason. What is the real reason of putting in these words when they can do exactly as they will without putting them in? The Law Officers of the Crown very often say, "Why put in words which are superfluous in an Act of Parliament." That is exactly what they are proposing to do now, and I hope the Committee will not allow these words to be put in.
Personally I think the system which has grown up of paying the agricultural labourer partly in cash and partly in kind is a wrong one. I would much sooner they had been paid in cash, and if that had been done a great deal of the misconception which has arisen in regard to the wages of the labourers would not have arisen. On the other hand, it cannot be denied that there are many parts in Scotland in which it is a good thing to give the agricultural labourer something in kind—and they like it. I do not say they do everywhere, but in many cases; and I do think it would be a great mistake to put in these words which might cause the Wages Board to decide that this could not be given. What will the Wages Board be? They will not consist of gentlemen learned in the law, or of men occupying high positions in the country. They will consist of honest people, without any very great experience in these matters and the result will be that if they get a notice from such a great body as the Board of Agriculture that they can do such things, I can understand them saying, "If the Board of Agriculture says you can do it, we must do it." I do not take the view of the hon. Member (Sir John Spear) as to what will take place on the Wages Board is likely to occur. I do not think it will be a happy family around the table, each of them trying to do the best they can for each other. I do not think that at all. I think the farmer will want to get the best of the bargain and the agricultural labourer will want to get the best of the bargain. I do not blame them, but the person who will decide, will be the independent chairman. That is my experience of the Conciliation Boards which have been introduced during the past five or six years. I earnestly hope the Government will not persist in putting this Amendment into the Bill.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendment made: In Subsection (1) paragraph ( b ) leave out the word "that" ["enabling that Board"] and insert instead the words "the Agricultural Wages."—[ Mr. Prothero. ]
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1) after paragraph ( b ) to insert the words
"( c ) For requiring the Agricultural Wages Board to define for the purposes of any differential rates for overtime the employment which is to be treated as overtime and."
I do not understand what this Amendment means. It is a very important matter.
This Amendment is really carrying out a promise made that specific words would be inserted dealing with overtime. There are certain kinds of agricultural overtime, varying very much with the districts, which are bound to be considered by the Agricultural Wages Board, and all the overtime rates of payment have to be fixed. The House was of the opinion, in a previous discussion when these questions came up, that it was pre-eminently a case for the Agricultural Wages Board to deal with, on their merits. Of course overtime is a thing you cannot measure in the case of stockmen or shepherds. That is not the kind of overtime which is intended. But where there is overtime, over and above the minimum hours of labour which the Agricultural Wages Board fix, then they would also fix at the same time the differential rates of pay to be paid for that overtime.
I thought the right hon. Gentleman was going to say that the differential rate for overtime would have to be added in the case of shepherds or stockmen, but on a different kind of overtime. Apparently that is not so. Apparently it is the ordinary overtime work on the farm—such as harvesting, I presume?
Yes; and similar work of that kind.
Then why the words "differential rate"?
Because there maybe different rates. The able-bodied labourer works overtime at so much, and the boy, girl or woman at so much.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, after the words last inserted, to insert the words.
"( d ) for enabling a district wages committee to delegate any of their powers to a sub-committee and."
I will give an explanation of this Amendment. The Central Agricultural Wages Board is the only body which fixes minimum rates of wages. The district wages committee are used for the purposes of report and recommendations and for collecting information, and so on. They may under this Clause delegate those powers to a sub-committee, but the powers that they will delegate are mainly those dealing with individual cases of service, but no district wages committee can delegate to a sub-committee the fixing of minimum wages, because the committee itself has not that power.
I think the explanation which the right hon. Gentleman has given of this Amendment is rather a prefunctory one He has not told us, or perhaps I have not had the advantage of hearing him give any explanation to the House, what are the duties of the Central Board, the district committees, and now again of the sub-committees. We do not know what area the district sub-committee will have jurisdiction over. All we know is that the district sub-committee is not to have the power to fix the minimum wage and cannot delegate that power to the sub-committee. The whole of the fixing of the minimum wage is to be in the hands of the Central Board, sitting in London. That seems to be a very extensive power. I am not quite sure, speaking offhand—the scheme has rather been sprung on one—whether that is a very good scheme, but, however, passing to this particular Amendment, I should like to know whether the sub-committee is to have a local jurisdiction; whether it is to have a certain area prescribed to it, over which it is to have power; and I should rather like the right hon. Gentleman, before we part with this Amendment, to sketch in much greater detail what it is, where it is, and how it is, these sub-committees are to work? I would invite him, because really we do not know anything about it, to tell us whether they are to sit in London; whether they are to be local bodies, who is to nominate them, how they are to be grouped, and what functions they are to fulfil? I have asked one or two of my Friends sitting near me, and they seem to be as completely ignorant as myself as to the functions and operations of these bodies, and before we give to them the powers which the right hon. Gentleman now asks for, I hope he will give us a little further information on the subject. I do not wish to delay the proceedings of the Committee, but I think we are entitled to know something more than what has been communicated to us up to the present moment.
I think we should have some explanation of what is intended by the Amendment. According to the Schedule, the central committee may delegate to the committee or subcommittee, all its powers. The Agricultural Wages Board apparently may act under some Regulations to be subsequently issued by the Board of Agriculture for an unknown area, and then that Agricultural Wages Board may delegate all its powers to a sub-committee. So that we are really getting into a position in which this House can have no conception whatever of what is intended to be done by this Amendment without very much more explanation than we have just had. You cannot even ascertain in the Schedule what these powers are, because they are left for the Board to determine at some future time. That seems a very indefinite state of things—that the House of Commons should agree that this district wages committee, which may have all the powers with the exception of one of the Central Agricultural Wages Board, may delegate those powers to a sub-committee. I have found that there is very great jealousy in the country in regard to this delegation of powers. The farmer says, "I want to deal with the Board of Agriculture. I do not want to have a person who has no authority and can make no engagement really for the Government. I want to deal with a person who is authorised by the Board of Agriculture who is responsible to the Board of Agriculture and can be held responsible." This seems to constitute a change of irresponsibility. There is an old Latin maxim, delegatus non delegat, and I have a dim recollection in my legal days that a delegate could not delegate his powers. Here we are trying to do by Act of Parliament what was regarded even in Roman times as an unwise thing. I ask, therefore, that we should have some further information as to this change of irresponsibility.
I also should like to get a little clearer as to the purpose of the Amendment. As I understand, looking at the Schedule, the Central Wages Board may establish district Wages Boards, and the area of the district is entirely in their hands, and they may have as many or as few as they choose. This proposal is, in addition to that, to have, in an area where there is already a district Wages Board, sub-committees, it may be for a particular purpose. The point of the right hon. Gentleman is this: If a district Wages Board delegates powers to a subcommittee, the district Wages Board is eliminated, and the sub-committee will then be the party to report or recommend to the Central Wages Board. Of course, under the Amendment, any district Wages Board could delegate any of its powers to different sub-committees. You might have five or six different bodies in the same district, and the poor farmer and the agricultural labourer and other people are sufficiently be-muddled already with the number of public bodies which have power over their locality without any further multiplication. Is not the much simpler thing to have one district body responsible in each district, and if the area proves too large for any particular district body let the Central Wages Board split it up, as they have power to do under the Schedule, and make the districts smaller, but let us have only one body in each area dealing with a particular area and not have power to multiply them so as to have a plurality of bodies acting, it may be, on different subjects, but at the same time and concurrently, and creating confusion even worse confounded.
Before the Committee gives power to the district wages committee to appoint sub-committees and delegate powers to them it ought to have some idea what the district wages committee is, and I think the President of the Board might let us know what area the district committee covers. Is it a county committee, a Petty Sessional district committee, or a district committee for the diocese? It is obvious that before we decide whether the committee shall have power to delegate its powers we want to know what area it covers and what district it has to deal with. If it is a small area I do not see that a sub-committee is necessary. If it is a large area it may be necessary, and I therefore think we must press upon the President that he should let us have some idea as to what these district committees are.
What we want to know is what is the necessity for the Amendment. The Schedule says the Agricultural Wages Board may establish district wages committees, and it goes on to define them. If that is so, as I read it, the Agricultural Wages Board may establish any number of district wages committees if they think it right. Now we have this Amendment which provides for the delegation of powers to a sub-committee. What is the necessity for that? If the area is too big for the district Wages Board would it not be better for the Board of Agriculture to appoint another district wages committee and not leave it to the district wages committee to appoint a sub-committee. It is altering altogether the plan in the Schedule. I have no objection whatever to there being plenty of committees if it is necessary to carry on the work, but let them be committees appointed by the Agricultural Wages Board. The Amendment is not clear as to whether the district wages committee can appoint any one subcommittee. Must a sub-committee consist of members of their own body or might it be someone else? That is not clear. Does it mean that a district wages committee, consisting of twenty people, we will say, can split itself up into various sub-committees, always supposing that the subcommittee must consist of members of the district wages committee, or does it mean that the district wages committee can go round to Dick, Tom, and Harry, and say, "We will constitute you a subcommittee of the district wages committee"? I do not know whether it is legally clear whether or not they can do both those things, but it is not clear to me. We ought to have some explanation as to whether or not they will be limited to members of their own bodies or whether they can go outside and appoint other people.
The object of enabling; these committees to form sub-committees could not, I think, be met by mere multiplication of the committees, because the kind of problem you want to deal with only requires a few small committees of one or two members. At the same time there is a great deal to be said for the view that the delegation of these powers, in so far as is necessary, could more conveniently be considered on the Schedule, and if the committee thinks that is a convenient course it would be well if the Amendment were withdrawn.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, after the words last inserted, to add the following paragraph:
"( d ) and for enabling any applicant to be represented in any proceedings before such board or any district wages committee by any officer of the National Agricultural Labourers' and Rural Workers' Union, or of any other trade union."
It seems to me that this is a very practical proposal and a very necessary element in the machinery of the Bill, because the very essence of a Wage Board system is that each side should be adequately represented, and should be in a position to place its views vigorously before a board or a committee. Under the conditions of rural life a labourer who is assumed to be making an application before a board is probably not in a position to express himself very freely, and he is not trained to put his case as it ought to be put. It is a similar case to that of the Coal Mines Act or other minimum wage system, where an official of the union is the obvious person to represent him. It is not merely the habit of mind. but the positive lack of freedom involved in our present agricultural system. The words "or of any other trade union" are necessary, because the National Agricul- tural Union is not the only one. There are the Scottish Union, the General Labourers' Union, and others. These words are needed to give sufficient width to the power of representation. The farmers, of course, have long been organised, but it is only very recently that the labourers have been organised at all. The union which is mentioned here is a body which has only within the last few years arrived at importance. It is growing very rapidly. It is already influential in twenty counties, and, speaking for my own part of the world, its prestige has become very well established during the last few years, especially during the War. No one would object in the very least nowadays to its officials appearing as the representatives of the men. Without some such provision it seems to me that the position of the men would not be secured, the intention of the Bill would really be illusory, and the power intended to be given to the men would not be realised.
There is an Amendment in the name of the hon. Member (Mr. Wardle) to move a new Clause, which I think in the main meets the object which the hon. Member proposes. That Amendment reads as follows:
"Any workman employed in agriculture, or any person authorised by a workman so employed, may complain to the Agricultural Wages Board that the wages paid to the workman by any employer are at a rate less than the minimum rate applicable in the case of that workman, and the Board shall consider the matter, and may, if they think fit, take any proceedings under this Act on behalf of the workman."
I think that will be considered a better Amendment. It is taken from Sub-section (1), Section 2, of the Trades Boards Act, and it has been found to work very smoothly and successfully.
You will accept it when we get there?
Yes.
It would mean that workpeople could authorise representatives of trade unions to represent them?
Yes.
Would the farmers be able to be represented by the Farmers' Union or members of the Associated Chambers of Agriculture?
It is quite evident that when that Clause is brought forward it will be open to my hon. Friend to raise his point then.
I understand that, this would allow anyone, either a workman or the representative of the workman.
I did not say so; I did not say it went further than the workman. I will consider whether it extends to the case of the representative of the Farmers' Union.
I am raising a different point. This would seem to confine it to a matter of making complaints. Can the workman be definitely represented on the board itself by some representative of a trade union in place of his actually being there.
That was the point raised by the hon. Member's Amendment, "enabling any application to be represented in any proceedings before such board." That is the very point that will be met by the new Clause.
Amendment negatived.
Can we deal with ( c ) under Part III. of the Bill?
It is in the Bill now; I have no Amendments. The Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Dumfriesshire (Mr. Molteno) to enable the Agricultural Rents Board to deal with references under Part III. would not do in this part of the Bill. I invite the hon. Member to prepare for me a substantive proposal in connection with the new Clause 6, and I will see what his proposal in connection with the Rents Board is. I think it will be much better to bring it up if he could in some substantive form, and not merely by reference here.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the words "twenty-one" ["subsequent twenty-one days"] and to insert instead thereof the words "twenty-eight."
I move this Amendment because I think we ought to have more time. It is easy to say that these Regulations have never been cross-examined, but when we come to think that in the old days the twenty-one-was forty, I do not think that those who have charge of this Bill would mind if we say that the twenty-one days should be twenty-eight.
I will accept the Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move to leave out the words "His Majesty in Council may annul the Regulation."
I do not think we need go very deeply into this matter. It will be within the recollection of most Members that we moved exactly the same thing at the time of the Milk Bill, and it was accepted on behalf of the Government at that time. I think that this Amendment ought to be accepted now, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to accept it.
I do not think this is an Amendment which will recommend itself to the Committee, or upon which my hon. Friend would be well advised to insist. One must in these cases be guided by experience and observation, and the Committee is well aware that the ordinary form which has been observed in these cases is not that upon the address of a single House a Regulation can be avoided. I only know one case in which that form is adopted. The ordinary form has been adopted here. It may be that each House has its critics amongst those who are not members of them, and perhaps among those who are members. It may be that there are some who will be unwilling that a Regulation should be immediately invalidated on the passing of an address by the House of Commons, and it may be that there are some who would be unwilling that it should be voided by the passing of a Resolution of the House of Lords. I think the Committee would be well advised to adhere to established precedents.
Amendment negatived.
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 9.—(Powers of Entry and Inspection)
Any person authorised in that behalf by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries or by any person or body of persons exercising any powers of the Board on their behalf may, for the purpose of carrying this Act into effect, on the production (if so required) of his authority, enter on and inspect any land.
If any person prevents or obstructs the entry for the purpose of this Act upon any land of any person authorised under this Section, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £20.
I beg to move, after the word "land" ["inspect any land"], to add the words, "and shall have power to require any person whom he finds on any land, or whom he has reasonable cause to believe to be an employer or workman in agriculture, to give any information which it is in his power to give with respect to matters under this Act."
It will be seen by the Committee that the Clause gives a person power to inspect any land. I do not know that this Wages Board is being brought into operation to enable someone to go down to a certain area and to inspect land. The Bill itself deals with the human element. The object of this Amendment is to widen the scope and power of the person who goes, so that he may get as much information as may be necessary to enable him to carry out his duties.
The object which my hon. Friend seeks is, I think, met in a more convenient form by the new Clause which stands in the name of the President of the Board of Agriculture. I will read it, and then the hon. Member will see that it meets his case:
I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment. I think the new Clause covers not only this Amendment but the following Amendment, which stands in the name of my hon. Friend (Mr. Wardle) and myself.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 10.—(Provision of Money)
Any expenses incurred by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries in meeting payments under this Act, and any expenses of that Board or of any other Department or body to whom any powers or duties are entrusted under or in pursuance of this Act, and any expenses of the Agricultural Wages Board or any district committees thereof, including any expenses incurred with the consent of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries by any members thereof in the performance of their duties, in each case, up to an amount approved by the Treasury, shall be defrayed out of moneys provided by Parliament.
Amendment made: After the word "duties" ["performance of their duties"], insert the words "and any sums paid with such consent to any such members by way of compensation for loss of time."—[ Mr. Prothero. ]
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.
Does this enable the Board of Agriculture to take possession of land and to cultivate it and do all that sort of thing? Can they take land and spend any amount of money on it, stock it and so forth, without any reference to Parliament? If so, there ought to be some limitation put upon the amount to be spent without coming to Parliament for authority. There is no saying what the Board of Agriculture may do in these matters. I have one in my eye, one which might do some very unreasonable things. I do not think this Clause ought to be passed without some limitation, and I shall be very glad to move that the amount in any year to be spent shall not exceed £150,000 unless with the consent of Parliament.
I think we ought to have some explanation from my right hon. Friend. My hon. Friend (Sir G. Younger) cannot move his Amendment now because the question is that the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill, but I think he has advanced arguments which require to be met. I am not quite certain how far this Clause limits the expense. It says
"Any expenses incurred by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries in meeting payments under this Act."
What does that mean? Does that mean any payments which the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries may make?
Any that they may properly make.
It may be that they may take over any quantity of land. I am only asking for information. I am not laying down the law, but it looks to me as if that may be the case. The Clause proceeds
"and any expenses of that Board or of any other Department or body to whom any powers or duties are entrusted, under or in pursuance of this Act, and any expenses of the Agricultural Wages Board or any district committees thereof, including any expenses incurred with the consent of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries by any members thereof in the performance of their duties."
It seems that the latter part will include the case where a man has spent legitimately a certain amount of money in the performance of his duty, and that that money may be payable. I think we ought to have some explanation as to whether any expense incurred by the Board of Agriculture in meeting payments under this Act is included, and whether some limiting words cannot be put in now or on the Report stage.
The Clause provides for "any expenses incurred by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries in meeting payments under this Act." There is no limit on these words, subject to the observations which I have to make, except that the expenses which are to be met in the manner provided in the latter part of the Clause must be expenses incurred in meeting payments under this Act—that is to say, payments legally made, having regard to the provisions of the Act. My hon. Friend (Sir G. Younger) asks whether there is unlimited powers of buying land, and whether without any safeguard lands may be bought and money paid.
I said taken and occupied.
Taken and occupied, and the cost of such occupation, without any recourse to Parliament, defrayed. The hon. Member will be aware that the power of occupying land only arises in certain contingencies, which are not, it is hoped likely to be very numerous. There is really a safeguard of a far more valuable kind against any abuse of this Clause. For instance, where is the money to come from? That is the really important point. Is the money obtained in a manner which really deprives Parliament of control and criticism or which deprives the Treasury of control or criticism?
The Treasury has ceased to exercise control.
The point is you have to get the money, and the money can only be obtained in one or two ways. In a very exceptional case under a war credit. If it is not obtained under one of the war credits, it can only be obtained if it is put upon the Estimates in the ordinary way, and the hon. Baronet will then have abundant opportunity, with the materials before him, to deal with proved situations rather than apprehended situations. That is a security which in the gloomy view of my hon. Friend (Sir G. Younger) is of no value. Nevertheless, it must be hoped that at some period it will be of greater value than he thinks it is. You have the control of the Treasury for what it is worth, and I am bound to say in my own small Department that I have not found them so careless as my hon. Friend is disposed to think they are. In the next place, you have the security that the matter has to go on the Estimates of the Board, and is then subject to the fullest possible discussion.
I think the explanation is not satisfactory. What you really ought to do is to limit the powers under the Act. I have some Amendments on the Report stage which I hope will go towards limiting the power of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries under this Act to do certain things. That is the way to do it.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 11.—(Definitions.)
For the purposes of this Act—
( a ) the expression "agriculture" includes the use of land as grazing, meadow, or pasture land, or orchard, or osier land, or woodland, or for market gardens or nursery grounds, and the expression "agricultural" shall be construed accordingly; and
( b ) the expression "cultivation" includes use for grazing, meadow, or pasture; and the expression "cultivate" has a corresponding meaning; and
( c ) the expression "workmen" includes boys, women, and girls; and
( d ) the expression "quarter" means, in the case of wheat, a quarter of eight bushels of sixty imperial pounds, and in the case of oats a quarter of eight bushels of thirty-nine imperial pounds.
I beg to move, in paragraph ( a ), after the word "as," to insert the word "arable."
If you do not insert the word "arable" in this Bill it absolutely knocks the whole-Bill on the head. The object of this Bill-is to get increased production of corn, and the definition of "arable," on which you want to grow corn, has, with the usual care of the persons who drafted this Bill, been left out. Therefore, as far as I can gather, if legal Members wish to drive a coach and four through this Bill they would say that wheat, barley, or oats, if grown on arable land, does not come under the benefits of this Bill. If that is, so, the whole thing is ridiculous.
My hon. Friend's apprehensions are wholly without foundation. The definition says that the expression "agriculture" includes the use of land as grazing, and so on. What the draftsman has very properly done—and no one could possibly misunderstand it—is to insert the meanings which might not quite obviously spring to the mind.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
:I beg to move, to leave out the words, "or osier land or woodland."
It is absolutely necessary that these words should be taken out. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman who is now in charge of the Bill understands what osier land is, but anybody who has tried to make osier land will appreciate the enormous expense and difficulty involved and the value which it is afterwards for the farming community in providing osiers for basket making; and the same considerations apply in the case of woodlands, as we all know.
The only part of the Bill in which for a moment the word "agri- culture" occurs is at the beginning of Part II., when you are dealing with the employment of workmen. It appears in the first line of Clause 4—"Any person who employs a workman in agriculture." The effect of my hon. Friend's Amendment would be that workmen employed on osier land or woodland would not come under the provisions of the minimum wages Clause of the Bill. This, presumably, is what he intends by moving this Amendment. It seems to me that this Act should cover the wages paid to persons employed in these industries, and I hope, at any rate, that if you do alter the definition you will realise what it means. I do not think that the hon. Member made quite clear what he meant.
The right hon. Gentleman should recognise, while the point that he raises is a very strong one, that if the Clause is left as it is now it would enable the Board of Agriculture to tear up osier beds and say that it is much better that they should be torn up—
Can the hon. Member find any case in which the word "agriculture" is used in that connection?
If this is passed is there anything to prevent us later on inserting something somewhere else that will alter the whole thing? Will the Attorney-General give us a definite assurance that if these words are left in they will not give power to local committees to take possession of osier land or woodland and tear them up? This Bill is to provide for an increased production of corn. If anyone on the Board of Agriculture suggested at the present time that it was a good thing to break up osier beds or woodlands for the purpose of producing corn it would be considered to be bordering on insanity, because we have not got the labour in the country to break up land recently planted with osiers or wood. I should like a definite assurance on this point.
I should have thought that under the first Sub-section of Clause V the Board of Agriculture can, if they wish, say to the owner of an osier bed that he must use it for growing turnips.
It seems to me that this Amendment has been introduced under a complete misapprehension. The hon. Member for Ayr Burghs suggests that there would be power to enforce the breaking up of these lands for cultivation, but in the Clause to which he refers the word "agriculture" is not used at all. The only case in which it is used is that mentioned by the hon. Member for Cam-borne (Mr. Acland). Obviously this definition is drawn solely for the purpose of defining the classes to whom the minimum wages apply, and there is no objection whatever to the definition in its present form.
That is really the only point in this Amendment. It would affect these persons who are working osier beds or woodlands I may point out that these men very often are part time. A man may work at agriculture four days in the week and go into woodlands two days. It would be impossible to distinguish when he was working at agriculture and when he was working at osier beds and woodlands, and I would ask the hon. Member to withdraw his Amendment.
It is not on the question of the Wages Board that I propose this Amendment. Hon, Members will realise that those who work on osier beds have wages far above anything that this Bill can touch. The last thing that I propose to do is to reduce the wages. I would rather propose that they should be raised, but I am rather afraid that some of these authorities who have to deal with the matter may attack these osier beds and compel the owners of them to put them to another use. That is the reason why I move this Amendment.
I certainly think that if these words are left in the Board of Agriculture might be able to say that the particular land was not cultivated in the interests of the country, and as woodlands and osier beds are defined as coming under the definition of agriculture, it would be held that they were Dot cultivated in the best interests of the country and must be ploughed up. The question of wages is more or less a secondary one, because, as my hon. Friend has pointed out, men employed on osier beds are already receiving higher wages. With regard to a great part of the woodland work, it is done by piece-cutting, and really does not come in at all. Therefore, I think that my hon. and gallant Friend's words ought to be accepted. It is a most important matter. The whole climate might be altered if you cut down woodlands. The rain is influenced by them. I hope that the Government will accept this Amendment. If they want to attach any particular class to the wages, that can always be done in another form, but it ought not to be put in this particular Clause.
I think that on one point we are in rather a difficulty—as to the postponement of Clause 6. We ought at this period to have Part III. in the Bill. That is connected with agricultural holdings. In this definition "agricultural" comes under the same term as "agriculture." Therefore, you are proposing to put into this Bill a Clause limiting everything to do with the rents of woodland, which really have nothing to do with the purposes of this Bill at all. The rents of woodlands are entirely outside the Bill. This Bill is purely for the production of corn. It has nothing to do with an agricultural holding, where it includes a holding of any sort in connection with woodland, and I think that the definition is not satisfactory as it stands at present. We have not passed the amended Clause 6 yet. We have one Clause 6 in the Bill and one on the Paper, which is proposed to be substituted for it. Each has the words "agricultural holding" in it. I would like to hear an explanation from the right hon. Gentleman. So far as this Amendment is concerned, it is to a great extent, no doubt, limited to the question of wages; but on that point probably there is a great deal in the argument that men are part time, but some of the Wages Boards would perhaps be unfit to deal with the question of woodlands and osier lands. I do not wish to raise that point, but I should like an answer on the question of the agricultural holdings.
6.0 P.M.
There are two points raised, one on Clause 6, as proposed, and the other on Clause 7, as adopted by the Committee. Take the latter first. Under Clause 7 as passed by the Committee there is the power during the War to any war executive committee to do what it does to-day under the Defence of the Realm Regulations. Nothing in this definition has affected that power. In the second place, after the War there is power in the Clause for the Board to deal with any land which it does not think is being properly cultivated. The powers under Clause 7 deal with land that has not been before cultivated, and is absolutely irrespective of definitions under Clause 11. Conse- quently, whatever the definitions of "agriculture" are to be under Clause 11, the powers of the Board under Clause 7 will be left untouched, neither enlarged nor diminished. Consequently there is no objection to including osier land or wood land within the meaning of "agriculture" under Clause 11, and so far as Clause 7 is concerned it could not possibly have the result of enabling the Board to deal with land on the ground of bad cultivation which it could not deal with otherwise. As regards Clause 6, the right hon. Gentleman who spoke last has of course read it with the word "agriculture." But that Clause, as an amended one, has not yet been dealt with. It proposes to define rents not being raised by reason of the guaranteed prices. The guaranteed prices are in respect of wheat and oats, and consequently there is no possibility of the definition of agricultural land including osier, or of raising any question in connection with rent because of guaranteed prices. There is no objection on either of those grounds to including osier and wood land; on the contrary, there is reason for including the definition.
By including osier and wood land under the definition of "agriculture" in this Clause, you would be going outside the scope and title of the Bill. The title of the Bill is "for encouraging the production of corn, and for purposes connected therewith (including provision as to agricultural wages and rents)."
Why not?
Because it would be extending the definition of "agriculture," and I submit goes outside the title of the Bill.
The point ought to have been raised on the Second Reading, and addressed to Mr. Speaker. It is too late now.
Amendment negatived.
Amendments made: In paragraph ( d ) leave out the words, "a quarter of eight bushels of sixty," and insert instead thereof the words, "four hundred and eighty."
Leave out the words, "a quarter of eight bushels of thirty nine," and insert instead thereof the words, "three hundred and twelve."—[ Mr. Prothero. ]
I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to add as a new paragraph:
"( e ) The expression 'able-bodied workmen ' shall only apply to workmen between the ages of twenty-one and sixty."
I move this Amendment at the request of the Central Chamber of Agriculture. If we turn to the definitions we find that the expression "workmen" includes boys, women, and girls, and we think there ought to be a definition of the age limit, one way or the other. I am not absolutely wedded to the ages twenty-one and sixty, but this Amendment is being moved to try and get some definition of age.
It is not at all certain that a boy of twenty may not be eligible to receive the wages of an able-bodied man, neither is it certain that the man of sixty-two will cease to be able-bodied. We think that the age should be left, as has been done throughout, to the Wages Board to define, and on that ground I cannot accept the Amendment.
Are the Wages Board to define the age?
It does not mean that. It means that the district committee will be asked to report and to recommend upon this subject to the Central Wages Board, and according to local conditions and variations the board will decide.
As I understand it, the district committees will report to the Wages Boards, according to local conditions. But what are the local conditions as to a man over sixty? Are we to understand that a different age might be given in Somersetshire and another age for a man living in Hampshire? That is what I am afraid of. I think it is very much better to have the age defined in the Bill.
The Amendment which the hon. and gallant Member has moved includes the expression "able-bodied workmen," but if we accepted that expression it would not fit in with paragraph ( c ), which defines workmen as including boys, women, and girls. I think my hon. and gallant Friend is under some misapprehension.
It would be perfectly easy to put the Amendment in order by altering it in this way, that the expression "workmen" includes men between twenty-one and sixty.
That would be very difficult, as paragraph ( c ) refers to boys, women, and girls.
The expression "workmen" only, so far, appears in. the Bill.
As the Amendment is drafted it does not fit into the Bill. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman desires to withdraw his Amendment in order to propose an Amendment in another form, it is open to him to do so, but perhaps the hon. and gallant Gentleman does not press his Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
I should like to have some answer to the question which I raised upon the subject of age of workmen. It is a very important question as to whether or not there will not be different definitions with regard to what is "able-bodied" among the various district committees of the country. That will be a very serious thing—
Is the right hon. Gentleman in order in discussing the question of "able-bodied" men, seeing that the Clause does not contain anything about that?
The right hon. Gentleman can discuss the whole Clause, which includes the word "workmen."
The Clause says that the expression "workmen" includes "boys, women, and girls," and I think it is quite in order to discuss whether or not there should be a definition as to workmen being considered able-bodied between certain ages. I am sorry to use the words "able-bodied," because they are not in the Bill, but it is perfectly open to me to say that the definition in the Clause is not efficient, and that the word "workmen" should be defined more closely. I would remind the hon. and learned Gentleman that his leader, the Prime Minister, has distinctly said that this Bill was not meant to apply to men who were not able-bodied, or to men who were not able to do an efficient day's work, and that they were to be exempted from the operation of the Bill. I understand from the President of the Board of Agriculture that this question is to be decided by the committees or by the Wages Boards, and that is contrary to the statement of the Prime Minister. Therefore I think there should be one definition, so as to avoid different ages being fixed by the different committees. What I want to ascertain is whether there is any danger of that, or whether the Central Wages Board will insure that the age shall be the same in all localities. There is no doubt about it that the Central Wages Board will receive reports from all the district committees, and will then fix the age which in their opinion is best for agricultural purposes all over the country. I think that is the best way of settling this question.
Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly give us an assurance that the men who are not able-bodied, the older men, shall not be discharged? Assuming that an older man is not capable of doing a full day's work, is he to receive the minimum of 25s. a week, or will the farmer discharge him? I am speaking really in the interests of the older men, whom we do not want to see thrown upon the rates? I am 'sure the President of the Board of Agriculture will feel that the point is one of importance in the interests of the older workers in the country, and if there is no provision in the Bill to meet it, then one should be put in.
There are various kinds of disability as well as age. Will the farmer have to go before a board in order that he may get his wage corrected according to disability or will the Section apply which states that a man may be placed outside the Wages Board altogether? It is important to know what is going to happen to those men who are in varying stages of disability.
We would have great difficulty in fixing the limits of age for able-bodied men, but it is quite possible that the various committees might find themselves up against the same difficulty. It is possible, I think, from what the right hon. Gentleman said, that each committee might think that it was under some obligation to define the limits of age for able-bodied men. I should like to know whether he really intends that they should do that or whether he would leave it open to any committee, if he thought fit not to lay down any limits of age but to let each case be a question of fact.
May I point out that on Clause 5 we added a definition of an able-bodied man, saying that it means any workman who is not incapable by reason of age or mental infirmity? Is it therefore in order to re-examine that definition and reopen the question?
We are asking that the age should be defined.
I think it is in order to discuss what "workman" means.
The observations made by the right hon. Gentleman raise a point to which I ventured to call attention before, and perhaps this is an opportunity of considering a simple method of getting over the difficulty, which I feel to be a great difficulty. How are you going to deal with the different degrees of ability or disability in capacity which will present themselves. It is difficult to do so by list intended to meet every possible case of the kind. If you do not cover any possible cases you set a limit to the beneficial operations of your Bill. We want after this War to be able to give employment to people of all sorts and conditions of incapacity. We do not want to put the unfortunate employer in the position, when a man prevents himself, to have to say, "I cannot employ you because you are not specifically mentioned in the list." I would suggest a way of getting over the difficulty and that is by giving power to the district wages committee to authorise the employment of men at rates provisionally fixed by them You would not in that way have to wade through the whole process of framing wages. My suggestion, I think, would meet the objection and put farmers in a better position to employ labour.
I think the point raised by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. D. Lambert) is very important. Take the position as it is now. There are many cases of men somewhere about sixty-two or sixty-three who cannot or who do not do a real day's work. What would happen if the Clause is passed in this form and if the farmer has to wait until all the various district committees have made up their minds as to what in their opinion is the proper age at which a man is to be considered worth 25s.? I think I am not exaggerating when I say that that must take at least three or four months. What will the farmers do? The farmer may say, "This Bill has become law. I have two men here of sixty-one or sixty-two neither of them capable of doing a full day's work. They are worth only 17s. or 18s., which they are very glad to accept, and they could not get work at that price anywhere else. I am not going to be bothered by people coming on to my land and asking me how much I pay these men. I do not know what the age may be and sixty-five might be inserted and I might have to pay the difference between 17s. or 18s. and 25s., which I know the men are not worth, and to pay that for three or four months, and under those circumstances I shall discharge the men." I venture to say that that is a case which may happen in many instances and is one which requires to be dealt with. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman does not want anything of the kind to occur and I think some arrangements ought to be made to prevent a farmer being under the liability for three or four months of having to pay wages to men he knows are not worth it.
This whole question of the employment of labourers who are not, properly speaking, able-bodied is a difficult one, and it is one which is peculiarly difficult in agriculture, where a very large number of men are employed who are not capable of doing a full day's work. The only obligation upon the farmer is to employ able-bodied men at the minimum rate, and if he does not employ such a man at the minimum rate, the rate at which he employs him is to be made up to the minimum rate. I do not think there is really so much difficulty in this matter as some hon. Members think. In theory there may be, but no farmer is under any delusion as to what is or what is not an able-bodied man in practice. I do not think they are under any danger of suffering any penalty in this respect under the Act, and neither do I feel so alarmed as to the statement that they will discharge all the older men. The Committee will remember the insertion of a provision that any man who is suffering from any mental or other infirmity or physical injury is able to get a permit and to be employed at differential rates. As to the question of age, I think we are agreed that this House is not absolutely qualified to determine whether a young man of twenty-one or a young man of twenty should receive the wages of an able-bodied man, and that the Wages Boards, when they have got reports from the various committees, will be in a better position to judge of what is the best age to pick than we could here and now. As for the committees who will have to make those reports, what they will do will be to make recommendations that there is a general feeling, for instance, that in their district the wages should be so and so. They will consider that wage, and will recommend that an able-bodied man should become able-bodied at such an age, or cease to be able-bodied at such an age. On those recommendations the Wages Board will ultimately fix the age.
The suggestion that we should have a provisional temporary wage rate is very attractive, but I think, on the whole, if we leave it as it is there will be no practical danger of the old men being discharged or of any men on the border line not being employed, because there are the provisions elsewhere in the Bill as to the employment of people who are suffering from any infirmity—physical or mental. Those are contained in Clause 5. I do submit that with the Regulations that we shall issue and with the provisions of this Bill the matter is dealt with. The Wages Boards have the power, and will have the means of discriminating accurately and care Fully between the various classes of labour. I do not profess that this is a system which is absolutely perfect, but we must remember it will be worked by practical and representative bodies of men, and in that way many of the theoretical difficulties will be got over, and I think we shall be able to secure a working scheme.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 12.—(Application to Scotland and Ireland.)
(1) This Act shall apply to Scotland with the following modifications:—
( a ) The Board of Agriculture for Scotland shall be substituted for the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries;
( b ) A separate Agricultural Wages Board shall be established for Scotland; and the separate Board so established shall be substituted for the Agricultural Wages Board;
( c ) The Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1908, shall be substituted for the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1908;
( d ) The Chairman of the Scottish Committee of the Surveyors' Institution hall be substituted for the President of the Surveyors' Institution; and
( e ) The "Edinburgh Gazette" shall be substituted for the "London Gazette."
(2) This Act shall apply to Ireland with the following modifications:—
( a ) The powers and duties of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries shall be exercised and performed by the Lord Lieutenant or by or through such departments and bodies as may be determined by the Lord Lieutenant, and accordingly references to the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries shall be construed as references to the Lord Lieutenant or to the department or body to whom the powers and duties of the Board are assigned by the Lord Lieutenant, as the case may be:
( b ) A separate Agricultural Wages Board shall be established for Ireland; and the separate Board so established shall be substituted for the Agricultural Wages Board; but the powers of that Board under this Act to fix minimum rates of wages shall be exercised by the Lord Lieutenant on the advice of the Board; and a reference to an adequate rate shall be substituted for the reference to the rate of at least twenty-five shillings a week, and the provision as to the retrospective effect of a minimum rate of wages for able-bodied men shall not apply:
( c ) The provisions of the Schedule incorporated in Part II. of this Act which relate to the constitution of the Agricultural Wages Board and district wages committees, or are consequential thereon, shall not apply:
( d ) Part III. of this Act shall not apply:
( e ) Part IV. of this Act shall apply to Ireland, except that the amounts required to be determined for the purposes of Part IV. shall, in default of agreement, be determined by arbitration in accordance with the provisions of Section twenty-five of the Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Act, 1870, and the Schedule to that Act, and that such
( f ) The "Dublin Gazette" shall be substituted for the "London Gazette."
I beg to move, "That the consideration of Clause 12 be postponed."
My reason for making this Motion is that I think the course proposed will be eminently convenient, and will save the time of the Committee. This Clause relates to the application of the Bill to Scotland. So far as the Scottish portion of the Clause is concerned, and that is the part with which I am more immediately concerned, there are at least two Amendments on the Paper which are intimately connected with the form in which. Part III., Clause 6, becomes part of the Bill. As to the Amendments on the Paper, which, of course, I cannot discuss just now, it is important to know how Clause 6 stands, and as to whether or not the arbitration under the Bill is changed or not. I am not going to argue the matter at length, but it is desirable that we should know the form that Clause 6 takes before we raise the question of certain specific Amendments, and as to how Clause 6 is to be applied to Scotland. May I point out that this postponement would not involve a very long delay, because there is only one other Clause, which does not seem to be a very contentious one, left in the Bill.
I quite appreciate the importance of Clause 6 in its application to Scotland, as suggested by the hon. Member, but I should have some difficulty in assenting to the proposal which has been made by him. For example, a number of the members of the Irish party desire, I understand, to discuss to-day their share of this Clause. It must be remembered this Clause is applicable not only to Scotland, but also to Ireland. I am very anxious, if I can avoid it, inconveniencing any hon. Members in this matter. I do not, however, think that any real difficulty will accrue if I say that I do not see my way to accept my hon. Friend's proposal. It is very doubtful, I think, if any benefit would accrue from his proposal, even if I accepted it, because, as I understand it, a postponed Clause is taken before a new Clause. Accordingly, even if Clause 12 were postponed, it would still, in the absence of a Motion to the contrary, be taken before Clause 6 in its new form; accordingly, the purpose my hon. Friend has in view might not be secured. Apart from that, however, I do not think any disadvantage will follow if we simply go on with the Bill in ordinary course. All that will happen is that Clause 6, when it is taken as a new Clause, will be fully discussed, and we shall have ample opportunity between that time and the Report stage to consider the application of Clause 6 to Scotland, and to put down Amendments in the ordinary form. By adopting the proposal of my hon. Friend it would follow as best for him that Clause 12 would be taken immediately after Clause 6. The result of that would be that one would have to put down Amendments on the spur of the moment—manuscript Amendments—a course which is very inconvenient. In these circumstances, and as from every point of view the regular course would be convenient, both to my hon. Friends who sit below the Gangway as well as to the Scottish Members, who are chiefly interested in this matter, I would ask my hon. Friend not to press his proposal.
After the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman, and as I merely wish to meet what seemed to me to be the convenience of the House, I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The following Amendment stood on the Paper in the name of Sir GEORGE YOUNGER: In Sub-section (1), paragraph ( a ), after the word "Fisheries" ["Board of Agriculture and Fisheries "], insert the words "except that in Part III. of this Act the sheriff-principal within whose district the holding affected is situate shall be substituted for the Board of Agriculture for Scotland and the decision of the sheriff shall be final."
I think the Amendment of the hon. Baronet the Member for Ayr Burghs more properly relates to Clause 6.
That is the difficulty. It does refer to Clause 6, but nobody knows what the new Clause 6 is-going to be. I think we ought to know what we are going to do, and our way about in respect of this new Clause 6.
The Amendment, seems to me to be drawn more in relation to Clause 6.
I can move it then, I will not move it now.
I beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out paragraph ( b ), and to insert instead thereof the words, "There shall be formed in each county and district of a county or combination of counties or districts, as the Board of Agriculture may decide, a joint committee comprised of equal numbers of representatives of farmers and farm, servants, elected as may be provided by the Regulations of the Board of Agriculture, with a chairman who may be appointed by the elected members of the joint committee, but failing agreement-by the Board of Agriculture;
These committees shall appoint from their number representatives to form a central committee for Scotland, the number of representatives to be fixed by the Regulations of the Board of Agriculture;
The local joint committee shall meet to discuss the adjustment of wages and conditions of farm service in the area, and, if no agreement can be arrived at on any claim, the committee may agree to refer the matter in dispute to arbitration;
Any findings of the local committees, whether arrived at by agreement or by arbitration, may, if the committee so decide, be reported to the central committee, and if adopted by the central committee and reported to the Board of Agriculture such findings shall become obligatory in the area."
The object of this Amendment is to substitute for the Wages Board in Scotland, as proposed by the Bill, a scheme for joint committees of farmers and farm servants of the same character as conciliation boards and proceeding by agreement. This seems a better provision for Scotland than the proposals of the Bill. These proposals of the Bill as regards the Wages Board seem to have been designed for the English and not for the Scottish conditions In fact, when we have a minimum wage of 25s. it is practically inapplicable to Scotland, where, I am glad to say, the wages of farm servants are higher than that minimum. The Amendment that I am proposing has been put forward by the Scottish Farm Servants' Union, which represents about 7,000 farm servants in Scotland. I do not suggest that it represents all, or even a majority, but it represents a large number and is, I believe, the only union that does represent them. It is not, however, proposed by them alone. The principle of this scheme has been recommended twice by the Departmental Committee of the Board of Agriculture on Food Production in Scotland, and has been endorsed by the Scottish Council of Agriculture, which is composed of the principal agricultural associations, including the Highland and Agricultural Society, the Scottish Chamber of Agriculture, and the National Farmers' Union of Scotland. The proposals are practically identical with those of the interim Report on Joint Standing Industrial Councils by the Sub-Committee on Relations between Employers and Employed, and of the Reconstruction Committee, and they have also been endorsed by the Commission of Inquiry into Industrial Unrest. I may, perhaps, seeing my right hon. Friend the Member for Clackmannon and Kinross is unable to be in his place at present, say that the scheme has also been recommended by the Committee of which he is chairman, the Departmental Committee on Food Production of Scotland, in their second and third Reports. Perhaps I may just read from the third Report this recommendation of paragraph 12. It reads: here a system which has been framed by parties interested in agriculture in Scotland, not a theoretical system, but a practical system, and one which has been working and which so far has been working well. The suggestion I venture to make on behalf of these bodies is that, so far as Scotland is concerned, this system, or a system along these lines, should be substituted for the system of a Wages Board proposed by the Bill. I hope my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland will see his way to accept this Amendment.
I very heartily support this proposal. I am not quite sure that the actual form of the Amendment may not be improved, but that is a matter of detail. In regard to the principle of the Amendment I very heartily support it. The Mover has very truly and properly referred to the many representative bodies in Scotland which support the principles involved in the Amendment. We may say with pride that Scotland has taken a strong lead of England. I think there are four of these district councils, that is to say, voluntary Wages Boards, in operation in Scotland. They have been in operation for some considerable time. Each appears to cover a pretty large area. The work is entirely voluntary. There are representatives of both farmers and farm labourers on the bodies. They meet, and without any trouble, so far as I know, on each occasion they have adjusted wages with great satisfaction to both sides. That is a thing of which Scotland may well be proud, and it is the right way to get agreement between these two bodies of farmers and farm servants. It would be recognised and continued by the Amendment, or something in similar form.
I also rise strongly to support this Amendment. It is very remarkable that this Amendment should really have been supported universally in Scotland. On the other hand, there has been no suggestion whatever from anybody in Scotland of a desire for a Wages Board as provided by the Bill. So that here we have a system which is not only universally accepted, but which, in practice, has worked out in results certainly much better than we could have hoped for in the Bill. I should like to give an idea of the sort of wages which have been secured under this system in Scotland, and which is very much more: practical and conduces more to harmonious work- ing than that proposed in the Bill. Take the counties of Inverness, Moray and Nairn, Banff and Aberdeen. The wages there are £64 to £66, plus perquisites, which are valued at 15s. This is very much higher than the minimum wage proposed by the Bill. In the other counties of Kincardine, Forfar, Perth and Fife, the wages are £65 to £70 a year, plus perquisites, which are valued at 12s. a week, which is also very much higher than anything we are likely to get in the Bill. Again, take the wages of Stirlingshire, Dumbarton, Renfrew, and Lanarkshire, they rise from 34s. to 37s., plus perquisites, valued at from 4s. to 6s. per week. The same applies in varying degrees to various other counties in which this union has been working. In the greater part of the counties in Scotland it has been in operation, and if it operates in other counties we shall have a similar result. Even apart from that, however, wages in Scotland, as the House well knows, have led wages in England by many shillings per week for a considerable time past. When you have unity of this character, when you have good results, better than we can hope for, I think, in England for a considerable time to come under the provisions of the Bill, it would be wise to allow Scotland to manage her own affairs in this effective and satisfactory way.
I do not think it requires any pressure on the Committee to get this accepted for Scotland. I do not know whether my right hon. Friend desires to modify the Amendment in any way, but, so far as the principle is concerned, I am entirely in favour of it. We have had admirable experience of the working of these committees. I do not know whether you, Mr. Whitley, had any information as to their working when you prepared your excellent Report the other day, but anyhow the results have been so satisfactory in Scotland that we all prefer the continuation of the system in Scotland rather than the proposal in the Bill.
I should like to join with my hon. Friend who has just sat down, and to say that, so far as information has reached me, I think the Scottish Members are in practical agreement upon this question, and I am sure it will come as a relief to my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland to know that Scottish Members are a happy family in this matter. My hon. Friend the Member for Dumfriesshire (Mr. Molteno) mentioned the fact that in our country wages rule very much higher than they do in England, and certainly, as far as my knowledge goes of the county which I have the honour to represent in this House, they are somewhere between 37s. and 40s. a week. I do not know whether it is in order to ask if the figure which has been put into the Bill for England can come out of the Bill altogether, and leave that to the joint committees proposed by this Amendment to be set up. I do not argue it, but only throw it out as a suggestion to my right hon. Friend. I believe it would find great favour in Scotland, and would leave the matter entirely to the jurisdiction of the joint committees. Anyhow, I hope we may assume that the Secretary for Scotland will accept in principle this Amendment, because it is very desirable to meet the views of Scotland in this matter in the way which has been suggested by my hon. Friend.
I want to say a word, not from the standpoint of Scottish agriculture, for which I am not qualified to speak, but from a labour point of view with regard to this matter, and if the hon. Member for West Fife had been here to-day, he would have backed up very heartily this Amendment. Speaking for myself, I believe this Amendment will be far better from the standpoint of Scottish conditions, and I have received communications from organisations like the Farm Servants' Union stating very strongly that it is along these lines rather than along the lines of Wages Boards, that the problem can best be solved so far as Scotland is concerned. Therefore, in view of the representations from all quarters, and from every point of view, I hope the Secretary for Scotland will see his way to accept this Amendment, and I am quite sure that, but for the strict impartiality of the Chair, your own heart would be warmed towards this proposal, seeing that it is in line with the Report of the Whitley Commission. From every point of view I believe it to be a good thing, and I hope it may be adopted by the Secretary for Scotland.
I do not wish to stand between the Committee and the Secretary for Scotland, but I think it is extremely gratifying that this proposal should have received such universal assent from all Scottish representatives in this House, and, in these circumstances, I have no doubt my right hon. Friend is willing to accept it. This removes one of the blots upon the Bill. The Bill, so far as wages are concerned, has been drawn with reference to the English conditions, under which agriculture is a sweated industry, but everybody knows that agriculture is not a sweated industry in Scotland. The proper procedure for dealing with wages in a sweated industry is by a Wages Board, but in Scotland the conditions are not sweated, and therefore the proper procedure is the system of conciliation. The Amendment suggests that for Scotland the system of conciliation should be adopted in preference to that of a Wages Board, which is more appropriate to sweated industries.
I think the Committee will agree that, if I found it difficult to accept the principle of the Amendment, after what has taken place, I myself should be in a difficult position. The principle underlying this Amendment comes before us with very considerable credentials. The Wason Committee definitely recommend the adoption of some such scheme as this. Furthermore, the principle underlying the proposal has the support, as I understand, of the Agricultural Council in Scotland, which is the only agricultural body, I think, which is representative of all agricultural interests in that country. It is further supported by the Farm Servants' Union, a body of great importance. And when I find in this House that members of all parties, as we understood them in pre-war days—Liberal, Conservative, and Labour—ask me to accept the principle of the Amendment, and that my right hon. Friend who immediately preceded me in the office which I have the honour to hold, throws the weight of his authority in support of the proposition, then I feel free to say that I shall accept the principle underlying the Amendment, although I do not see my way to accept the precise terms in which the Amendment is couched.
One thing more I would say, and it is that not only is the scheme supported by the various bodies and persons to whom I have referred, but it has also in Scotland stood the test of experience, and in all the counties where the scheme of conciliation has been set up, it has proved, according to my information, entirely successful. Indeed, I should be disposed to go a little further, if my English colleagues were beside me, and say that probably this is the ideal they hope to attain in England one day. At any rate, it is an ideal which it is within our grasp to realise in Scotland now, and, although I do not in. the least commit myself to the terms of this Amendment, for reasons the details of which I need not enter into—there are certain points in the Amendment which I could not possibly accept—if my hon. Friend will be good enough to withdraw the Amendment, I shall endeavour to find words by the Report stage which will give effect to the principle of the Amendment, with which I am in entire agreement.
I hope that I have the assent of my Scottish colleagues to agree entirely to the course which my right hon. Friend has suggested. In these circumstances, and with that assurance, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), at the end of paragraph ( c ), to insert the words "except that in the-Second Schedule to the first-mentioned Act the sheriff-principal of the district in which the holding affected is situate shall be substituted for the Board of Agriculture for Scotland."
The Amendment may or may not be required when we know exactly what the new Clause 6 is going to be. I think it is very desirable that in this case the sheriff principal shall be substituted for the Board of Agriculture for Scotland.
I understood, when I saw this Amendment on the Paper, that it referred to Clause 7. If my hon. Friend will limit his Amendment to Clause 7, I shall be prepared to accept it. So far as it relates to Clause 6, I do not think it would be convenient or competent, if I may say so, at this moment to deal with it, because the present shape of Clause 6 may not be the shape in which it may emerge after it has been discussed as a new Clause. If my hon. Friend will move this as an Amendment to Clause 7, I shall be prepared to accept it in somewhat different words. I shall be prepared to accept it in this form: "Provided that where under this Act the Board of Agriculture for Scotland is a party to an arbitration, the Sheriff Principal of the Sheriffdom in which the land affected is situate, shall in the Second Schedule to the first-mentioned Act be substituted for the Board."
I shall be very glad to accept that if it is convenient to the right hon. Gentleman, and will withdraw my Amendment if he will bring up an Amendment on Report. I do not wish to hurry him, and am quite satisfied with his suggestion.
Before the Amendment is withdrawn, may I point out that Clause 7, as it passed the Committee stage, reads at the end of Sub-section (7) as follows:
"Provided the amount shall be determined in each case in default of agreement by a single arbitrator under and in accordance with the provisions of the Second Schedule to the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1908: Provided that, for the purpose of any arbitration under this provision, the arbitrator shall be nominated, in default of agreement, by the president of the Surveyors' Institution."
If the right hon. Gentleman will look at the next Amendment I propose to move, he will see that it deals with the Clause as passed in Committee, and substitutes the sheriff of the county, with whom we are familiar in Scotland. What the right hon. Gentleman has just suggested as an alternative to the hon. Baronet's proposal would not meet the provision in Subsection (7), because the proviso would stand as a substantive part of the Bill applying to Scotland. You have got to get rid of the proviso, and therefore I would suggest that the next Amendment, standing in the name of the hon. Member for Leith Burghs (Mr. Currie), is much more appropriate to deal with the question.
I think, in view of the consideration which my hon. and learned Friend opposite has suggested, it would be as well to defer this point to the Report stage.
I think, after what has taken place, that might be a more convenient course, and perhaps my hon. Friend will withdraw the Amendment.
I am most willing to do so.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in Subsection (1), paragraph ( d ), to leave out the words "The Chairman of the Scottish Committee of the Surveyors' Institution," and to insert instead thereof the words "The Sheriff of the county."
Under the second Schedule of the Agricultural Holdings Act it is provided that, failing agreement, the arbitrator shall be nominated by the Board, which is the Scottish Board of Agriculture in our case. Therefore, so far as the Bill stands, the Board does not appoint at all, but it is the president of the Surveyors' Institution who appoints, and this Amendment proposes in the case of Scotland to leave out the Board, but, in place of the chairman of the Scottish Committee of the Surveyors' Institution, which body is not well known, to insert the sheriff of the county. It is quite familiar to us to have the sheriff of the county as the person to nominate an arbitrator.
7.0 P.M.
I find myself in substantial agreement with my hon. and learned Friend in the observations which he has made. I do not desire to underrate the importance of the chairman of the Scottish Committee of the Surveyors' Institute, who is a well-known and distinguished person, but at the same time we are very familiar with the duties performed by the sheriff of the county, and on the whole I think it would be preferable to substitute his name. While I am not quite sure that the words of the Amendment are suitable, I will give the assurance that I will accept the principle of this Amendment and I will put down on the Report stage an Amendment in my own name giving effect to that principle.
I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
We now come to the Irish section. The first Amendment, standing in the name of the hon. Member for South Kildare (Mr. Kilbride)—[dealing with average and minimum prices]—should come after the one standing in the name of the Chief Secretary, which deals with, the Bill as a whole. When we come to the Amendment of the hon. Member for South Kildare, it should be moved in two parts.
I beg to move to leave out paragraph ( a ), and to insert instead thereof the following new paragraph,
"( a ) References to the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries shall be construed as references to the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland."
When this Bill was under discussion on the Second Reading objection was taken to the proposals of a provisional nature which appeared in the Bill relating to Ireland. Since then I have had an opportunity of learning the views of those interested in this measure, and I think there is a general consensus of opinion, as far as I have been able to gather, that it is desirable that the paragraph which vested the performance of these duties in the Irish Government should be deleted, and that there should be substituted a paragraph which would place the enforcement of the duties immediately under the control of the Irish Department of Agriculture. I do not conceive that any of my hon. Friends from Ireland will question that this is a change for the better.
I do not rise to oppose this Amendment; I wish to support it. On the whole, having looked at the matter from all points of view, I think the right hon. Gentleman's proposal should be accepted.
I also desire to support this Amendment, which has the approval of the Unionist Members.
Amendment agreed to.
With regard to the Amendment of the hon. Member for South Kildare, I think it would be better to move it in two sections separately, because they are quite separate proposals.
I beg to move, after the. words last inserted, to add,
"( b ) In the application of Section one of this Act to Ireland, the average price shall be taken to be the price ascertained by the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland on the basis of the actual price paid for wheat and oats in the different counties of Ireland during the months of September, October, November, and December in each year."
When the Bill was under consideration at a previous stage, attention was drawn to the fact that the period to which the fixing of the price of corn, although it might have been applicable to the English situation, was wholly unfair to Ireland. It was then pointed out that at no particular month of the year does an overwhelming quantity of the corn of this country come into the market, whereas in Ireland 90 per cent, of the whole of the corn that is sold is sold within four months of the period mentioned in this Amendment which is applicable to the question of finding the average price. I pointed out to the Chief Secretary what the position would be in Ireland if the procedure which exists in the Bill as it stands was adopted in Ireland. Take, for example, a man who sells 100 quarters of oats or wheat. I take that figure simply for calculation. He sells 90 per cent. of that product at. £1 per quarter and receives £90 for it, and for the 10 per cent. which he does not sell until the spring he receives 25s. That means that the average price to the producer is £1 0s. 6d., but in the calculation that is in the Bill if it remains no account whatever is being taken of the quantities sold, and the average price would pan out at 22s. 6d. That means that while the farmer receives £1 0s. 6d. the average price is not a true but a fictitious average. The average for the purpose of this Bill, the Treasury average, is 22s. 6d., but the true average, the price the farmer received for the whole, is £1 0s. 6d., the Treasury following the ancient precedent and the usual practice with regard to Ireland, which is that you simply cheat the Irish farmer out of 2s. per quarter.
I have been asked, "Why does the Irish farmer adopt a different practice with regard to the selling of his corn than is adopted by the English and the Scottish farmer? One reason is that the Irish farmer as a rule is not a capitalist, and he runs his business in Ireland largely on credit. He does not pay very often for the seed he gets in the spring, or for the manures, until he threshes his corn, and the moment the harvest is in he is constantly receiving letters from those who supplied him with articles in the spring, and that is the time he pays his accounts. The usual time for demanding rent in Ireland is the month of November, consequently he releases as much of his crop as possible for the purpose of paying his rent and meeting his other liabilities. Therefore, necessity and want of money is the main cause why the Irish farmer does not keep over his corn to longer than the months mentioned in my Amendment.
Another reason is that since Ireland went back from tillage largely to pasture there are very few, in fact no farms, on which satisfactory accommodation is provided for stacking corn to safeguard it from mice and rats. In Ireland there are no large granaries, and the consequence is that they have no proper way of keeping the corn, because the farmer has no proper corn stack stands to preserve the corn from the inroads of vermin. The practice is that in Leinster and Munster, and, indeed, I have seen it in a great deal of Ulster, that a great quantity of the corn is stacked or ricked in some corner of the field on which it is grown, and it is stacked on the ground. That fact alone shows that corn stacked under these conditions cannot be kept through the winter time. In the months of September, October, and November 90 per cent, of the corn is sown, and it must be obvious to the Chief Secretary that if the term at present in the Bill is allowed to stand a serious injustice would be done to the Irish farmer. I think the right hon. Gentleman has taken the trouble to work out the figures, and he will agree with me when I say that the present system is wholly unsuited to the conditions in Ireland. The effect is that whatever the intentions of the Bill may be to give the farmer fair remuneration, and pay him the full difference between what he receives in his pockets and what is guaranteed to him by the Government under this Bill, unless there is something in the nature of this Amendment adopted, the Irish farmer will be defrauded and cheated of what it was the intention of the Government to let him have.
My hon. Friend has made out a very moving" case on behalf of the Irish farmer, with a view to securing to him the benefit of an increased guarantee under the Bill as the result of local conditions which it is suggested makes his average price somewhat lower than if it were taken upon the method provided in the Bill. If the period during which the average is calculated were limited to the months of the autumn and early winter it would add something appreciable to the guarantee. That is a proposal which from the point of view of the agriculturist might commend itself to the Committee, but, unfortunately, it comes into conflict with the scheme, which is of general application, and which depends for the fairness of its working and for its producing a reasonable equality of burden and benefit as between the farmer and the Treasury upon the generality of its application being maintained. I notice that the Amendment provides for a separate average in each county. The Department of Agriculture is to ascertain within the-respective counties what is the average price for the limited period which it is, proposed to introduce. I suppose that the guarantee is to be governed by the county and not by the area of Ireland. The matter has been carefully considered, and, in view of the very great difficulty of making the provisions of the guarantee of local and limited applications, the conclusion that has been arrived at is that it is impossible to accept the amendment. The effect of the decision of the Committee to deprive the Bill of the generality of its application and to make at local in the several counties or several areas comprised within the United Kingdom would be that you would have to work out in each county what guarantee was required.
May I be allowed to point out that the Amendment I have moved in accordance with the ruling and advice of the Chair simply limits the time to four months instead of seven months?
Unless my eyes deceive me, it provides for the average price to be ascertained in the different counties of Ireland. I read that in the paragraph that I have before me. If my hon. Friend will tell me that it is not in his copy or that he has not moved it, it deprives the Amendment of one of its features to which. I take exception. It is sectional in its operation, and you cannot have a fair and effective sectional operation of this Bill, applying in every district of England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland. If you treat them as separate areas and you arrive at the conclusion that local circumstances are to guide you in the amount of the guarantee, the inevitable corollary is that you must make inquiry as to the guarantee required to deal fairly as between the farmers in that guaranteed area and the Exchequer, and I am told that it is an impossible operation. I can quite see, at any rate in some areas of Ireland and during the present season, that there would be an advantage to the farmer in - the mode of dealing with the guarantee which my hon. Friend proposes, but the Bill treats the agriculture of both islands as one undertaking with a common market, with common governing considerations, and with a common emergency with which the whole of the agricultural community is faced. The unity of that system and the unity of the causes which justify this Bill will be destroyed, in the opinion of my colleagues, and, in my own opinion, if you introduce a separate mode of treatment in the cases to which my hon. Friend has referred, I should have been glad if, out of good feeling and good nature, I could have given my hon. Friend a more agreeable reply; but it cannot be done.
I perhaps ought to apologise for my temerity in saying anything about what seems, at first sight, to be a purely Irish question, but it is not really a purely Irish question. I can assure the Mover of the Amendment that there are large districts in England and Scotland where exactly the same agricultural practice prevails, namely, to thresh out to sell nine-tenths of your wheat in the months of the autumn and early winter and not to keep any considerable proportion over for the spring. That fact, together with the other facts which the Chief Secretary has given, might justify no difference being made between the way in which the prices is calculated in Ireland and the way in which it is calculated in England, Scotland, and Wales, but there is a point that ought to be rather seriously considered. The way in which we arrive at the average price under the Corn Returns Act, 1882, is entirely unscientific. It is arrived at by aggregating the totals of the weekly or monthly prices and dividing those totals by the number of weeks or months without taking any regard of the amount of wheat which is actually sold in those periods. The average, in fact, is not a weighed average at all. It is purely a chance average. Hitherto, if that has acted to the benefit of anyone, it has acted to the benefit of the clergyman or the incumbent, because it has counted the later months of the year in which only a very little corn changed hands, generally at a higher price than the bulk of the corn, as of equal potency and weight as the months in which the bulk of the corn changed hands at a lower level of price. Therefore, the way to be fair both to Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom is to consider if it is not possible to make the figure arrived at under the Corn Returns Act a scientific figure or a weighted average which would have regard to the amount of corn which had actually changed hands during the period of the year in which the corn was being sold. If the Government would consider whether an Amendment of the Corn Returns Act could not be made in general, so as to get a fair return in accordance with the amount of corn which has changed hands, I believe it would be a more satisfactory way of dealing with the matter than to make this arbitrary distinction between Ireland and the other parts of the United Kingdom. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will at any rate see that attention is given to the matter, because it is rather an unsatisfactory piece of our ordinary machinery that the average price should at present be found in a totally unscientific and wrong way.
The right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has said that in parts of England and Scotland the same system with regard to the marketing of corn prevails as in Ireland. That seems to make out a strong case for a general Amendment of the Bill limiting the period for ascertaining the average price to the four months for England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland. It would be less complicated than the suggestion that you should attempt to ascertain the quantities sold in each of the seven months, together with the prices, and that on the two figures you should base the average price. It would be simpler to take the four months for the whole of the United Kingdom than to take the average price for those months. There has been no provision made for ascertaining the average price in Ireland. The Corn Returns Act of 1882 does not apply to Ireland. It only applies to England. Therefore, you are taking the highest price that you can find, because the standard of prices in England is usually higher than in Ireland or Scotland. Therefore the Treasury is taking the standard which is largest, so that the difference between the standard price and the minimum price shall be least. That hits Ireland, because if you take the price in Ireland you have the lower standard. In comparing the English and Irish prices you have to deduct from the English price, in order to find the Irish price, the cost of freight from Ireland and the cost of marketing in Ireland before the produce is sent across to be resold in England. The standard taken under Clause 1 is very unfair to Ireland with regard to the ascertainment of the difference which is to be paid under the scheme of the Bill—that is, the difference between the average price and the minimum price. If you took the average price and calculated it on the standard of the Irish price, Irish farmers would receive a greater difference, because they receive a lower price in Ireland than the English farmer receives in the market over here. As to the question of the number of months over which you are to ascertain the average price, I would suggest, if the Chief Secretary is unable to accept this Amendment now, and as this point seems to have been overlooked in the general discussion on Clause 1, that the right hon. Gentleman should before the Report stage consider, in consultation with the Vice-President of the Department in Ireland, whether the four months specified in this Amendment should not be the four months to be taken for the whole of the United Kingdom. If the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to give an undertaking that he will consider that matter before the Report stage, I am sure that my hon. Friend (Mr. Kilbride) would be willing to withdraw this Amendment.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move, after the words last inserted, to add,
"( b ) In the application of Section one of this Act to Ireland, the amount to be paid to the occupier as therein provided shall be, in the case of wheat four and one-half times, and in the case of oats six and one-quarter times the difference between the average price and the minimum price per quarter."
This Bill was introduced for the purpose of giving to every farmer in England, Scotland, or Ireland a claim on the whole of his produce, and not merely on a portion of his produce. So long as that was the condition in the Bill, and before the basis was shifted from production to acreage, we in Ireland were on exactly the same plane as the English farmer. If we produced more per acre we had a bigger claim. What have you done? You have changed the mode of procedure from a claim based on production to a claim based on acreage. The Amendment which was accepted by the President of the Board of Agriculture was based on the average product of the United Kingdom, and the figures of 4 for wheat and 5 for oats were adopted, so that should there be a deficit between the guaranteed price and the average price, the claim in the case of wheat was to be four times the deficit per acre, and with regard to oats, where there was a deficit between the guaranteed price and the average price, the claim was to be five times the difference per acre. I would point out to the Chief Secretary that the figures of 4 and 5 respectively were arrived at not by taking the average produce of England, or by taking the average produce of Great Britain, but by taking the average produce of the United Kingdom. By that means the average produce of the English farmer is increased, because Ireland, as admitted by the Government the other day in reply to a question put by me, produces a higher average of wheat per acre and a higher average of oats per acre, so that the English average, which is the average on which this Bill is based, is not a true but a fictitious average of production. While that is in favour of England, the moment a case is put to you which goes the other way in favour of Ireland it cannot be considered!
While the average product of wheat in England is 4 quarters per acre, the average product in Ireland, according to the Government's own figures, is 4.7 quarters per acre, or considerably more than 4½. In the question I put the other day I asked for a six years' average product, and my reason for asking for that was that this Bill is a six years' Bill, and that a Return dealing with the six years previously to the time this Bill is to come into operation would be the fairest possible term to adopt. The Government's own figures showed that the average product of oats in Ireland for the last six years is not 5 quarters per acre, but 6.3 quarters per acre. If the present system of calculating the average is adopted with regard to Ireland, what happens? The Irish oat-grower, who is entitled to be paid on his produce, although the procedure is changed so as to give him a claim on acreage, when he produces 6⅓ quarters of oats to the acre while the English farmer only produces 5, is robbed of what he believes the intention of the Government to be. I do not know whether the Vice-President of the Board has given this matter very great attention. From the day the Bill was read a second time until now we have been pressing him to let us see what the Irish Government Amendments were to be. It was only two days ago, if not only yesterday, that the Irish Government Amendments appeared on the Paper. That hampered us a good deal with regard to our own Amendments. I do not think that the Chief Secretary and the Vice-President of the Department have had sufficient time to give very serious consideration to this matter. If they can give me an assurance that they will consider the matter between now and the Report stage, I do not want to press this Amendment.
I should, however, like to direct the Chief Secretary's attention to this important consideration: When the Vice-President of the Department, under the Defence of the Realm Act, asked Irish farmers to largely increase their tillage, did he not get a most satisfactory response from them? Did either the Chief Secretary himself or the Vice-President think at the time that since March Irish tenant farmers would have added 700,000 acres to their tillage? No! They claim to be treated fairly and equitably. If you adopt the figures of four and five, especially with regard to oats, where the Irish production is over 6 quarters per acre, you are not treating the Irish farmer equitably. No matter what you say in this House, you will not convince him that it was ever the intent of the Government to treat him equitably. He will say that it was the intention of the Government to get him to put the largest quantity of land he could under the plough, but that it was not the intention of the Government to treat him as being on the same plane with the English farmer. How am I to persuade a man that he ought not to be a Sinn Feiner in Ireland, when the first answer I get from him is, "Look at the Corn Production Bill. See how they are treating the English farmers and how they are treating Irish farmers. You stand up in the House of Commons and point out to the Chief Secretary and His Majesty's Government the inequitable treatment that is going to be meted out to the Irish tillage farmer, inequitable in every sense." He would go on to ask me "What are you doing in the House of Commons? Ought you not to be at home; ought you not to be a Sinn Feiner? The only way of bringing any English Government dealing with Irish matters to their senses is by throwing some revolutionary party in their way and following Carson's example." The Chief Secretary knows it well and so does the Vice-President. If you do not want Sinn Feiners in Ireland, then do not make them on that Treasury Bench. You are making them, and will continue to make them so long as you give the Irish tenant farmer to understand that he cannot trust the word of any British Government, or of any British Minister.
What does it all amount to? While I cannot say it is lying, it is the next thing to it, when you give the Irish tenant farmers to understand that should there be a deficit they are to receive from the Government the amount of the difference on the whole of the produce that they have sold. Are you giving the Irish tenant farmer a claim on the whole of his produce, when you turn down the Irishman who grows oats to the extent of 6½ quarters per acre and say "Oh, we cannot give you beyond five. The English farmer only produces five; and we must fob you off with the same terms that satisfy the English farmer." Surely the Chief Secretary does not mean that. Does he not recognise that the Irish farmer is entitled to equitable treatment? How is he going to explain to the Irish farmer that he will receive equitable treatment under this arrangement? It is impossible. I know the right hon. Gentleman's ingenuity, but it will not be equal to that task. He ought to have some consideration for those who sit on these benches. We did everything we could last spring, as he and the Vice-President know, to induce the Irish farmer to put under cultivation as much land as possible. I think they will admit that he has done so under very great difficulties.
In Ireland it was 700,000 acres and in all England, I think, 350,000. We have done twice as much, and when we are generous to England and are doing our best to help her, is this the way to treat us? Is this the way to encourage us; that is what I want to know? Next year, perhaps, you will find yourself in a fix, and you would be very glad if we could come to your assistance and help you to get out of it by growing more corn, but it will not be much use asking some of us to come to your assistance if we see that we are not to get equitable treatment on this occasion. If you want us to help you on this occasion show us that you deserve it, and if you do not say so, then I honestly say I do not think you will get much help in Ireland. I see the Vice-President there. Next year you are going to increase the tillage under the Defence of the Realm Act by another 5 per cent., I understand. What I would) like to know is if this method of compensation and of fixing the claim is to remain, what encouragement is that to a man to put an increased 5 per cent. next year on his tillage? That will be 15 per cent. more next year than what he had tilled in 1916, and this is the way you are going to encourage him. You encourage him by letting him understand, rightly or wrongly, that your object is not to treat him fairly but to cheat him, if you can. It is not very difficult to persuade people in Ireland that the British Treasury has always been cheating; they know it has, and is it not time to turn honest and give up cheating? I am perfectly sure that the Chief Secretary will find himself a much more comfortable man in Dublin Castle, when perhaps after dinner he is smoking his cigar, if he can reflect that he is the first Chief Secretary that ever treated Ireland fairly. The years that he has been Chief Secretary have added much to his labour, and it will, I am sure, add greatly to his digestion to reflect that he is the first Chief Secretary that really treated the Irish people well. These are considerations to which I would like him to give his attention, and if he has not had sufficient time—I know he has been very busy about other matters in Ireland recently—to give enough consideration to this point I do not want to press it now if he gives me an undertaking that between now and Report he will give it his consideration. I do not want to prolong the Debate, because I think the Chief Secretary really understands my point of view as to how the Irish farmer ought to be compensated.
It is scarcely necessary to add anything to what my hon. Friend who has just spoken says when he moves an Amendment or makes any Motion of this character, and there is only one thing which I think he omitted. It was this, that the product that will come under the operation of this Bill is the product that has been brought about under a penalty. Last year, in 1916, the right hon. Gentleman the Vice-President to the Board of Agriculture went round the country and made some very admirable speeches. He impressed on his hearers the necessity of increased agriculture and increased production, and the results, according to the reports made by his own Department, were an increased production of 70,000 acres. [HON. MBMBERS: "700,000!"] No; I am talking about 1916. The right hon. Gentleman went about, and, as I have said, by the most admirable speeches, every one of which I read, and from which I gathered very much information, there resulted an increased production of 70,000 acres brought under the plough. This year the right hon. Gentleman did not take the trouble of going about and appealing to the patriotism, such as it is, of the Irish tenant farmer, but he formulated an Order from his Department in Dublin and said, "You will have to cultivate 10 per cent. more than you cultivated last year," including the 70,000, under a penalty which is declared in the Order. The result is an increased cultivation of 700,000 acres, 700,000 acres brought into cultivation under the threat of a penalty. If that be so, I say that it enforces the arguments used by my hon. Friend the Member for Kildare (Mr. Kilbride). If you force a man to break up his land and to cultivate after the manner that he does not desire, then I submit to the Committee that it is the bounden duty of the Government that puts compulsion upon him to pay him to the fullest extent. That is the only point I intended to make in enforcement of the arguments already used by my hon. Friend. I think it is the only one which he left untouched, and that it is one which ought to weigh with the Committee.
I want to call attention, if I can, to the very unfair nature of the proposal as it stands in the Bill as regards production. The original scheme in the Bill was that the bounty was to be paid on produce sold in the market, but that was converted into a new scheme altogether when the first Clause was in Committee, and it was put on to an acreage basis. The amount to be paid to the occupier was made four times the difference between the average price and the minimum price of wheat and five times in the case of oats, but I want to point out how in fixing and ascertaining the average price under Clause 1 you take the average in England under the Corn Returns Act, which is the highest average price you can get in the United Kingdom, and which is much higher than in Ireland. You reduce the difference you have to pay, in the four times or the five times as the case may be in the case of wheat and oats, and having reduced the difference by taking only the English return and not taking the Irish return, which would give a lower price, and therefore a greater difference for your average, you then say to the Irish farmer, "We will not take your lower average price, which would give a greater difference between the average and the minimum. We will take the English higher average price, which will give a less difference, and we will ask you to accept payment on the English basis. When we deal with your produce we will not take your higher return for produce, the Irish return which we have in the statistics, but we will take the English lower return and pay you for a lower average difference on the English basis and will accept the English basis of a lower return on which to calculate the total amount which you get." So, from each side of the question, from each point of view, you hurt the Irish farmer and differentiate against him in favour of the English farmer.
The Board of Agriculture in England has published Returns which give the production in England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland separately, and the production in the case of wheat for Great Britain gives an average for the ten years from 1906 to 1915, which appeared in the Return issued this year, or 32.15 bushels, or 4 1–7 quarters, on wheat, while the average return for Ireland for wheat for that period is 36.92 bushels, or 4⅛, which is a little more than the basis taken in this Amendment. In the case of oats the disparity is much greater. The average production of oats for Great Britain for the ten years is 39.69 bushels—that is, under 5 quarters—and in Ireland it is exactly 50 bushels. As a matter of fact, in 1915 it was 51.71 bushels in Ireland, and 39.79 in England. Fifty bushels is exactly 6¼ quarters, the figure given in this Amendment, and surely when you are paying on an acreage basis and are taking five times in the case of oats—the nearest figure for Great Britain is 39.69 bushels, slightly under 5 quarters to the acre—when you are taking that figure in your Bill for Great Britain, you surely ought to allow for the differentiation between that figure and the figure for Ireland of 6¼ quarters per acre. Unless this differentiation is made the Bill loses a great deal of its justification in regard to Ireland. I cannot defend the proposals of this Bill, or the proposals contained in the Schedule which the right hon. Gentleman intends to move with regard to increased cultivation in Ireland, and I will certainly decline to do so if this differentiation cannot be made in favour of Ireland, while the other differentiation to which I referred is made against Ireland. In both aspects the differentiation is against Ireland, and it is quite indefensible and quite unfair that no recognition should be paid to the fact that the Irish farmer has so much greater a production than the English farmer in these two corn crops which are dealt with in the Bill.
8.0 P.M.
The. hon. Member who moved the Amendment spoke of the proposals in this Bill as though their object was to put up the value of produce. If it were a Bill for putting up the values of produce it would be very much against the public interest. No Government that I know of, in times of great difficulty such as we are facing, could attempt to justify proposals for putting up the values of produce and fixing them at such rates as are proposed in the Amendment, as though the object in view were the distribution of premiums. The proposal in this Bill is for guaranteeing farmers who have been required to enter upon larger schemes of agriculture against being involved in loss. The object is a guarantee against loss, and it is no more than that. What could be done in order to give fair effect to the promises which were given to the farmer. It would be a comparatively simple matter in Ireland because in Ireland the expectation held out with regard to the yield of oats was that the oats a man brought to market should produce him a certain price. This Bill does something more than that. My own personal view was that the Government, which had promised prices for the oats brought to market, was doing a good deal more than implementing that promise when it extended the guarantee to oats which were never brought to market at all, but were consumed on the farm for the ordinary purposes of agriculture. What is the situation in which people are to have a guarantee against loss? It is a situation in which at the present time we have prices which two years ago would have been regarded as fabulous prices. There are two things which the farmer gets under the scheme of this Bill. He gets what is practically inevitably a large price, and he gets in addition to that a guarantee against loss: that is, a certain fixed return from his agricultural operations. That is determined in the case of wheat land and of land put under oats. How are you to ascertain what is the proper mode of paying these guarantees?
The English farmer may say with equal justice to everything that has been said here on behalf of the Irish farmers, "Oh, you are penalising me." The farmer whose land produces a higher yield than 4 or 4½ quarters of wheat or 5 quarters of oats might say with equal justice to anything you have said on behalf of the Irish farmer, "Why, my land gives a yield of 5 quarters or 4½ quarters of wheat and gives a yield of 6 quarters of oats, and why am I to be cheated—that is the word the hon. Member used—because the ruling returns are lower? Why am I to suffer in comparison with my neighbours in the next town? Here am I in possession of land which gives a high return where I am thereby at an advantage. Why is the premium in my case not to be enhanced with reference to the advantages I enjoy?" If this were a scheme for securing premiums to farmers, every farmer might expect his share in a proportion which varied with the output of his land. As I say, in this Bill it is a case of a guarantee which is to be of general operation, which is to apply to conditions of general operation, and which is to apply with respect to a state of markets which is entirely exceptional. The only mode by which you can secure the returns which the taxpayer is entitled to is to have one governing condition and see that there, at. Any rate, you have a minimum guarantee which secures benefit to every man. In Ireland you have the man in Ulster who grows white oats and the man in the south and west who grows black oats—
Surely the right hon. Gentleman does not mean the House to understand that Ulster grows all the white oats and that in the south and west we all grow black oats? There is as much white grown in the south as in the north.
As I am advised, that is a mistaken view. I am advised that at any rate the predominant growth in Ulster is white oats, which are used to a great extent for milling purposes, and the predominant growth in the south and west, as I understand, is black oats, which are used for farming. If that is so, why is not the man in Ulster who produces a heavier barrelage of oats entitled to come and complain that he is cheated by the Ex- chequer because he does not get a greater return than the man in the south and west? That is not really a practicable and fair way of dealing with a guarantee against loss. If it were a proposition where justice required that differences should be made between farmer and farmer, I should recognise all that has been said by the Member for Kildare (Mr. Kilbride). It is not so. It is a case of a general effort on the part of the agriculturists of Ireland in face of conditions of general application, and without regard to capacity of output, which varies from district to district and farm to farm. You have to find some figure which would be a fair governing figure, and I am satisfied that we have arrived at a governing figure which is fair to all parts of Ireland. I cannot give way to this proposal to make an increased premium to every farmer in Ireland, because the net return from the land of Ireland in respect of oats is larger than the net return in England. If you do that, in fairness and justice you must apply the same method not merely as between Great Britain. Ireland, but as between various areas in Great Britain and between various areas in Ireland. Those who have advised me and my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Agriculture have come to the conclusion that the guarantee which the Government made did not require that, and that fair play and justice as between various classes of agriculturists do not require it. My hon. Friend said with fairness, and in a manner which impressed me, that he would have been glad if this matter could have stood over until the Report stage I am told that the Rules of the House would prevent this being dealt with on Report. If it stood over it could not be dealt with on Report in the sense in which the Mover of the Resolution desires, and it is only dealing fairly and plainly with him that I should say now that the matter has been considered, and the Government do not see their way to make this concession.
It is all very well for the right hon. Gentleman to say that the prices which are embodied in this Bill are such as two years ago would have been considered fabulous. But we have to deal with the present situation, created by the extraordinary circumstances of this War. You had the Prime Minister a few days ago, speaking in Paris, admitting the necessity and urgency of this question of food supply, and of course it is as a matter of necessity that you have resorted to these methods. I was one of those who took a most active interest with my colleagues and others in trying to promote the increased production of food in Ireland—and I am very glad to say successfully—in a district where tillage is very difficult. We encouraged the people to till, and people we never believed would take to tillage have done so with great success. I think it is regrettable that in these circumstances you should have arrived at this decision, because the circumstances as between Great Britain and Ireland with regard to tillage are so much at variance. There is one thing I would wish to draw your attention to. Though the people have made this wonderful response in Ireland, and though it will be said that you are now guaranteeing to the Irish agriculturist a fine price for his produce, thus saving him from any loss and that you are actually giving him a premium, what is the fact? It is not a matter of amusement to the Irish agriculturists to turn round and till 700,000 acres of land. It will not be a matter of amusement to till an extra 5 per cent. next year. It is all very easy to boast this year of the fact that you have tilled 700,000 acres of land in Ireland. The easiest and simplest part of it was to have the ploughs and plough the land and sow the seed. What will be the position in Ireland next year when you come to till and manure the land and try to get it in proper working order? It is all very well to talk of the reward the Irish farmer will get for tilling it and of the grand weather and to say that everything is going on very satisfactorily. If the present rain continues and you have bad weather for the hay crops in Ireland, what will be the position? It is all very well for hon. Members in this House and the correspondents outside who are writing with regard to this boon you are conferring on the farmer. You are leaving a terrible responsibility on the farmer. You are going to have this increased production of food in Ireland, then deal generously with Ireland, for if you do not you will be injuring the very object you have in view. I have always been anxious for tillage and hope increased tillage in Ireland will continue in the future, for I believe it will be useful and beneficial. For that reason I regret the action you are taking.
Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
The Committee divided: Ayes. 20; Noes, 116.
Division No. 82.] AYES. [8.15 p.m. Clancy, John Joseph Keating, Matthew Scanlan, Thomas Crumley, Patrick M'Kean, John Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Cullinan, John Molloy, Michael Whitty, Patrick Joseph Dillon, John Nolan, Joseph Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) Doris, William O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Field, William O'Malley, William TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Hackett, John O'Shee, James John Boland and Mr. Kilbride Joyce, Michael Parrott, Sir James Edward
NOES. Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Archdale, Lieut. E. M. Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Hope, Lieut.-Col. J. A. (Midlothian) Baird, John Lawrence Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H. Hudson, Walter Barnett, Captain R. W. Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.) Beck, Arthur Cecil Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Bennett-Goldney, Francis Elverston, Sir Harold Jowett, Frederick William Bentham, George Jackson Fell, Arthur Kenyon, Barnet Black, Sir Arthur W. Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes (Fulham) King, Joseph Blair, Reginald Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue Lambert, Rt. Hon. G.(Devon, S. Molton) Bliss, Joseph Fleming, Sir John Larmor, Sir J. Boyton, J. Fletcher, John Samuel Layland-Barratt, Sir F. Brace, Rt. Han. William Galbraith, Samuel Levy, Sir Maurice Bryce, J. Annan Gelder, Sir W. A. Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) Bull, Sir William James Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) Burns, Rt. Hon. John Goulding, Sir Edward Alfred M'Callum, Sir John M. Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George Greig, Colonel James William Mackinder, Halford J. Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) Hanson, Charles Augustin Maden, Sir John Henry Clive, Captain Percy Archer Hardy, Rt. Hon Laurence Marks, Sir George Croydon Clough, William Haslam, Lewis Marshall, Arthur Harold Clynes, John R. Helme, Sir Norval Watson Middlebrook, Sir William Craig, Colonel James (Down, E.) Hewins, William Albert Samuel Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness) Dalrymple, Hon. H. H. Hill, Sir James (Bradford, C.) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Neville, Reginald J. N. Russell, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. Williams. Aneurin (Durham, N.W.) Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) Rutherford, Watson (L'poel W. Derby) Williams, John (Glamorgan) Nuttall, Harry Salter, Arthur Clavell Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Samuels, Arthur W. Williams, Col. Sir Robert (Dorset, W.) Parker, James (Hallfax) Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry (Norwood) Williams, T. J. (Swansea) Pearce, Sir Robert (Staffs, Leek) Sherwell, Arthur James Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Perkins, Walter F. Spear, Sir John Ward Wilson-Fox, Henry Pollock, Ernest Murray Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) Winfrey, Sir Richard Pratt, J. W. Sykes, Sir Mark (Hull, Central) Wing, Thomas Edward Prothero, Rt. Hon. Rowland Edmund Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Wood, John (Stalybridge) Radford, Sir George Heynes Thomas, Sir A. G. (Monmouth, S.) Yate, Colonel C. E. Roberts, George H. (Norwich) Tickler, T. G. Yeo, Alfred William Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Turton, Edmund Russborough Robertson, Rt. Hon. John M. Walsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Lord Robinson, Sidney Watson, Hon. W. (Lanark, S.) Edmund Talbot and Sir E. Cornwall Rowlands, James Wheler, Major Granville C. H.
I beg to move, in paragraph ( b ), after the word "Board" ["shall be substituted for the Agricultural Wages Board"], to insert the words
"such separate board shall constitute a county Wages Board for each administrative county in Ireland which shall consist of members representing employers and workmen in equal proportions and of one member appointed by the Department, and the Department may make Regulations as to the election or nomination of the members representing employers or workmen and as to the powers and duties and procedure of the county Wages Board, and as to appeals from any decision of such county Wages Board by employers and workmen to such separate board."
As I understand, the Government propose that the Schedule shall be made applicable to Ireland by substituting for the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries the Department of Agriculture in Ireland, and I believe the scheme the right hon. Gentleman has had in his mind has been the scheme outlined in this Amendment, because I am aware that for some time past he has been endeavouring to secure the personnel of a county Wages Board throughout the whole of Ireland. So that when this Bill passes into law the county Wages Boards may be set up as quickly as possible. If the right hon. Gentleman thinks that this proposal is not necessary, and that the scheme in the Bill can be followed by him on some such plan outlined in this proposal, I shall be satisfied. I hope that the county Wages Board will consist of a very small number of members. The Schedule of the Bill gives no indication as to the size of the Wages Board, and I am anxious by putting down this Amendment to impress upon the right hon. Gentleman the necessity of having only one Board so far as possible in each administrative county, and having that Board confined to a very small number of mem- bers; I should say three representatives of the employers and three representatives of the employed, with one representative nominated by the Department of Agriculture. I have no objection to the scheme in the Schedule except that it is vague in regard to the size of the county Wages Board and the district Wages Board. If the right hon. Gentleman can assure me that the desire of the Irish Government will be to restrict the number of members of these boards, to very few, and that these boards will be set up as quickly as possible after this Bill is passed, and that arrangements have been or are being made to secure that these boards can be set up quickly, I shall not press this Amendment.
I do not think my hon. Friend need insist on going to a Division on this Amendment, because my own idea is that his proposal can practically be carried out under the Schedule as it stands. That is to say, there may be a district committee or a board and the district may be the county. I do see that some difficulty may arise unless the Schedule is amended in some other respect. Sub-section (3) of Clause 11 of the Trade Boards Act says:
"The representative members shall be elected or nominated or partly elected and partly nominated as may be provided by Regulations."
I want to know by whom they are to be elected and by whom they are to be nominated. Neither is satisfactorily explained, and perhaps the Chief Secretary will be able to say something upon that subject. I think my hon. Friend (Mr. O'Shee) has in his mind, as I have it in my mind, the possibility of too large a number of nominated members being appointed. Sub-section (2) of Clause 12 of the Trade Boards Act says:
"Provision shall be made by Regulations for at least one appointed member or other persons nominated by the Board of Agriculture."
That would seem to render it possible that there can be any number of appointed members. That could be easily amended, and I hope the Chief Secretary will consent to amend it by omitting the words "at least," and confining the appointment of one nominated member. I think that would largely meet my hon. Friend's objections. These are points which require to be cleared up in the Schedule as it stands. I doubt whether this Schedule applies to Ireland or not, and it seems to me another illustration of thinking only of England in this legislation. I am not sure as it stands that the Schedule is satisfactory in regard to Ireland. The reason I make this remark now is to suggest to the right hon. Gentleman between now and the Report stage he should consider whether or not this Schedule is really applicable in all its parts to Ireland. If he thinks that it is not, on an impartial view of all the circumstances of the case, I would ask him to put down Amendments adapting it to the special conditions of Ireland.
The suggestion that has been made to me is certainly one which requires careful attention. I can assure my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Clancy) that the opinion of my advisers is that the Schedule as it stands gives ample power for carrying out any such scheme as the hon. Member for Waterford (Mr. O'Shee) and himself have indicated. The hon. Member for Waterford will remember that in the winter, after Christmas, the deputation of agricultural labourers whom he introduced to me discussed the possibility of establishing Wages Boards in Ireland, such as the Wages Boards which are proposed in this Bill. At that time I was not able to see my way to the scheme of legislation which was desired. I am very glad in the interests of the agricultural labourers in Ireland that this Bill has given opportunity for providing legislative authority for the establishment of Wages Boards. The Schedule, as I have said, provides all the necessary powers. I will deal seriatim with the inquiries which were made, and I hope the explanation I shall give upon the successive points of the inquiry will satisfy the hon. Member for Waterford that it is not necessary to carry this Amendment to a Division. First of all, in regard to the districts, it is not essential, I think, to stipulate here that the county shall be the basis. For some of the smaller counties where conditions are the same it may be possible to have one board. There are some of the larger counties where it may be possible that you would want two boards in the county. The object of retaining the general powers is to be able to adapt a flexible system to the requirements of the several districts. The object we have in view is that in each district in Ireland where the conditions are separate and distinguishable, it shall be within the power of the Central wages Board to set up a separate Wages Board to deal with the wage conditions in that separate area. The generality of the provision in the Schedule and the flexibility of the scheme which will be adopted will, I hope, make the system of Wages Boards acceptable throughout Ireland.
With regard to the selection of members and of nominated members, the object in view is to find in each district a small number of representatives of employers, and an equal number or representatives of the employed, and to add to that body, secured by that means, an independent person who will be nominated, preferably, I think, by the Central Wages Boards, who will be able to take a general view of the matter. It is not desirable to have some Government Department stepping in for the purpose of getting an ad hoc decision. You want a comprehensive and harmonious scheme, and the idea which commended itself to me, and which I hope will commend itself in Ireland, is that you should have a small body—three representatives from each side is a reasonable number—with an independent person who would we doubt be chairman, and would help them to a decision. Something was said as to a power of selection. The object of that is that in some of these areas labourers are not an organised body, and we may have to take the best steps they can to make sure that they have got men of independent mind who will stand up for the labourers as a body, and who, whatever influence of the other side on the tribunal set up, may be relied on to take care that they will represent to the best advantage the conditions of those on whose behalf they are put on. The object is to secure as good representation as possible on each side. I do not at the moment know of any other means that would serve, where there is not an organised body of labourers, than the power of nomination. With regard to numbers, I think that I have told my hon. Friend. As to the remaining features of the Amendment, I think that they are fairly covered by the explanations that I have given, and I think that in general it will be seen that the scheme that has been resolved upon provisionally as the best scheme for securing a fair system of wages is a scheme very much on the lines of that which the hon. Member for Waterford proposes.
Amendment negatived.
Amendment made: Leave out the words, "but the powers of that Board under this Act to fix minimum rates of wages shall be exercised by the Lord Lieutenant on the advice of the Board, and."—[ Mr. Duke. ]
I beg to move, in paragraph ( b ), to leave out the words, "and a reference to an adequate rate shall be substituted for the reference to the rate of at least twenty-five shillings a week, and the provisions as to the retrospective effect of a minimum rate of wages for able-bodied men shall not apply."
The Amendment has regard to the fixing of the minimum rate for wages. If the whole paragraph comes out it restores to this part of the Bill the Sub-section of Clause 5, which fixes a minimum rate of wage at 25s. a week, the same as has been inserted in the Bill for Great Britain. I submit that the other part of the Bill which fixes the minimum price for corn justifies the proposition that I make. The increase in the cost of living in Ireland makes it necessary that a living wage and a minimum wage shall be fixed. The labourers' question in Ireland has been a very acute one for a very long time. Owing to conditions into which it is not necessary to go now, labour has become very scarce in Ireland. Tillage farming has become possible only where the farmer has a family upon which he can depend for labour. Farms of very large size are principally grazed. Farms of small and medium size are cultivated principally by farmers who have families upon whom they can depend for labour. At one time in Ireland we had a large number of agricultural labourers. In 1871 we had 446,682 which in 1911 was reduced to 195,864. Those figures are taken from the last report of the Department of Agriculture in Ireland. America got the cream of the race; Great Britain is the next degree. In 1900 there were 32,000 migratory labourers who came across from Ireland to England to cut down the harvest. In 1915 there were only 13,000. What adds to the loss of labour in Ireland is the constant drain of men from the agricultural parts of the country to the industrial parts of Wales, the North of England, and Scotland.
It might be thought that there was a dearth of labour in Ireland on account of the figures to which I have referred, but again I quote from the return of the Department, which says:
It varies in different districts.
I have given the average for Ireland, and I do not want to weary the Committee by going into the list for Leinster, Munster, and Con-naught. There is another table giving the wages by counties, but I will not weary the Committee by going into those details, because it would not alter the argument one bit. What is the cost of living? I take the figures from the price lists issued by the Department. I find that sugar has increased from 2½d. to 6d. a lb., or 140 per cent.; potatoes from 5d. a stone to 1s. 6d., or 206 per cent.; coal from 1s. 4d. a bag to 3s. a bag. I was speaking to a constituent of mine in this House last night, and he told me that the coal had risen from 1s. 4d. to 3s. a bag, or 105 per cent., and he stated that he had bought some wagon loads of coal which were delivered to him in Dublin a short time ago, for which he paid 41s. a ton. He added that he looked at the invoices of 1914, just before the War, and he found that he paid for the same class of coal 18s. a ton. To the poorer people this represents an increase of 122.77 per cent. in the cost of coal. Bread has risen 100 per cent. How can it be expected that with an average increase of 140 per cent. in the cost of living, the Irish labourer with his present wages can meet such an enormous rise in prices; how can he be expected to pay his way with so small a wage as he receives? It is true that since these figures were taken out there has been a general rise all round in prices. I saw in the newspaper some time ago that a general meeting of farmers was held, and it was agreed to raise the wages of the agricultural labourers. In my own Constituency they were raised from 12s. 9d., or, say, 13s., to 18s. per week. Of course they will have some of the perquisites that the farmers have been in the habit of giving. This increase of 5s. represents an increase of 39 per cent. How is the labourer to pay that increase of 140. per cent. out of 39 per cent.? It is on that ground, therefore, that I make this proposition.
It should be noted that the rise in prices is on the commodities which the agricultural labourer uses most—for example, potatoes, bread, tea, sugar, and coal, leaving meat out altogether. Some of our agricultural labourers eat meat probably once or twice a year. I think that is so. I am glad to have the approval of the Vice-President in making that statement, because he knows all about it. In these essential articles the rise in cost is 160 per cent., and yet the agricultural labourer is expected out of his miserable advance from 13s. to 18s., or 39 per cent., to pay this enormous increase in cost of the commodities which he mostly consumes From these facts I claim that there is absolute necessity for a minimum wage. I do not want, in all places, all cash to be paid. I want a datum line from which to start. It may be that the Board to be set up will look round and find the equivalent of cash in such things as potatoes, or the labourer might be supplied with a bit of bacon. The poor labourer can buy no great quantity of that commodity, but if he got a piece from the farmer it would help him. There are many things that could be supplied, and bacon I fancy would be one of them. It would be the function of the Board to find out these matters, and to appraise the value of the equivalents for cash. What I want is that there shall be a datum line to start from, and that there shall be a diminishing ratio of cash in proportion to the value of the equivalents given. I ask that this should be laid down at a time when we want labour. The Vice-President and the Chief Secretary know that we are now at a time when we want labour in Ireland, and we desire to encourage labour not only to go there, but to stay there. As I have already stated, you have got 700,000 acres to deal with, and you had last year an additional 77,000 acres. The figures are 3,055,252 acres, and to that is to be added 770,000 acres.
It was 76,000 acres—I am not disputing the hon. Gentleman's figures—and they were, in the first instance, the result of a speech delivered in Dublin. I went out a year afterwards, and, although I had splendid meetings, nobody did anything.
In 1916 the 77,000 acres produced more than had been produced before. In the year previous the figures were 3,055,252 acres under cultivation, and that makes now altogether 3,112,202 acres, to which is to be added the 700,000 acres. Those figures refer to corn crops and green crops. I am suggesting that you will have to encourage labourers to stay in the country and come into the country. You must enter into competition with the employers on this side, whether it be the farmer who invites the migratory labourer over here or the industrial employer who coaxes the men away through the harbour of Cork, and through the harbours of Drogheda, Dundalk and Dublin, and men who never return. I have seen them in tens of thousands over here in the days gone by when we travelled all this country. That is the reason for my suggestion. In the admirable books produced by the Department of Agriculture it is pointed out that the labourers we lose are the best, the very best, and the most efficient, and they have all gone. The young men have gone, the men of enterprise, who always look to other lands as the El Dorado of their hopes. We would like to get them back again, but at any rate those who are there should be kept and made efficient.
How are we to get that efficiency? I submit it is by paying them an encouraging wage. In my intercourse with the agricultural labourers of my Constituency and in other constituencies they have assured me that they want the minimum fixed. It will not do to tell me, whether I shall be told by any of my colleagues, some of whom do not agree with me on this point, or whether I be told by the Chief Secretary, that in their experience and according to their knowledge the minimum wage is not wanted, and that the boards may be relied on to do justice. I submit from my own experience and from the knowledge of my own Constituents that they demand and want the minimum wage fixed. Your boards can take into account any equivalents that the men receive and appraise them at their proper value. I am convinced from the facts I have stated, and the figures I have quoted on official authority, that 25s. is at present inadequate to give the agricultural labourer a proper living in Ireland. After the vote upon the proposal from the other side to increase the rate of wages from 25s. to 30s., I could not now propose anything higher than the minimum rate which was fixed by the Division which then took place. I therefore confine myself to the minimum wage of 25s., decided on that occasion. I trust I have submitted nothing but facts to justify my Amendment, and that they are sufficiently weighty to induce the Committee to adopt my proposition.
9.0 P.M.
There is the question of the retrospective effect of either an adequate wage or a minimum wage being fixed at a certain figure, and I would suggest, therefore, that the Amendment be so put as to enable the questions to be dealt with separately.
That is what I have done, and I have saved the Amendment of the hon. and learned Gentleman.
I rise to support the Amendment. I think no one who has taken an interest in the Debates on this Bill will have failed to realise the essential importance of securing as an indispensable condition of the smooth working of the provisions of this Bill that the labourer shall be adequately remunerated. The proposal here is to fix in Ireland a minimum wage which shall not be less than the minimum wage adopted in the scheme of the Bill for agricultural labourers in England. Some people may think that the cost of living in Ireland is considerably less than in England. As far as I know no greater mistake could be made. The more remote a labourer lives from a big central population the dearer he has to pay for all necessary commodities. I take coal, for instance, and everyone must use coal in the winter. Coal is not cheaper in remote districts in Ireland than in agricultural districts in the vicinity of large and important towns in England. On the contrary, coal is much dearer in remote districts in Ireland than it is in England. Consequently, the cost of living for the Irish labourer in regard to many commodities which he must use is equal to, if not greater, than the labour in this country. Is the work which the Irish labourer has to do in Ireland less onerous than the work of the labourer in this country? I say the labourer engaged in agriculture in Ireland has to work as hard as a labourer engaged in agriculture in England or in any other part of the world. It is due to the labourer, while provision is being made in this Bill to secure that the farmer shall not be subjected to exceptional loss on account of the requirements of this Bill to increase the cultivation of the land, to increase agricultural production, that the labourer, whose services are indispensable in order to comply with the object of the Government in proposing this Bill, ought not to be forgotten. I have in mind what was said earlier in the Debate in support of other Amendments proposed by hon. Friends of mine, and the effect of it is to show that due recognition is not being given to the claims of the Irish farmers. But one way or another the claims of the farmers, of the occupiers, and of the owners have met with some recognition in the Bill. I submit that the claims of the labourers are of equal importance, and ought definitely to be met. The position, the status of the agricultural labourer, should be so fixed in the Bill that there will be no possibility of depriving him of that share to which he is justly entitled of the greater prosperity which will follow the adoption of this Bill.
I sympathise fully with my hon. Friend who moved this Amendment, and with the arguments put forward by him that not only have you to encourage a greater number of men to engage in agricultural employment in Ireland, but you have to provide against the inducements offered to the agricultural population in Ireland to migrate to England and Scotland for agricultural work in the country or for industrial work in the big towns and centres of population. Now, if labour is to be attached to the soil in Ireland, the conditions of labour must be made attractive. No one who has listened to the statement of the Mover of this Amendment can say that the Irish labourer has sufficient inducement to remain on the land, or to remain in his own country, if his remuneration is limited to 13s. or 18s. per week. I go further than that, and I say without hesitation that if the reward to labour in Ireland is less than the reward to the same labour in agriculture or industry in this country, it will be impossible to attach the labourer to the land in Ireland. Consequently, it will be impossible to get the results anticipated out of this Bill. Therefore, I submit to the Government and to the Committee that the Government ought to give its most careful consideration to this Amendment. I am sure, in considering it in the sense in which the Amendment is put forward and represented to the Committee by the Mover, that the Government, even though they do not accept the Amendment, will in sympathetic consideration secure the result that whatever Wages Boards are set up they will keep in mind this cardinal and essential principle that the conditions of life must be made tolerable for the Irish agricultural labourer, and that he should be offered as good a reward to carry on his work in Ireland as if he had migrated to England or to Scotland.
I have listened very carefully to almost the whole of this Debate. I was greatly struck with the position taken up by a very large section of Members of this House on the question of the payment of the agricultural labourer in this country. As a fairly common-sense man, I cannot for the life of me see why the Government should try to differentiate between the labourer in this country and the labourer in Ireland. We want the same rate of wages to be fixed for the agricultural labourer in Ireland as you are prepared to fix for England; and, surely, a great number of hon. Members were not satisfied with what has been fixed for the labourer in this country. How the right hon. Gentleman opposite representing the Government can face us and say, "We are not prepared to recommend a minimum wage of 25s. per week for the agricultural labourer in Ireland," passes my comprehension. What hesitation should there be about it? If the labourer in Ireland is worthy of his hire, then pay him the same rate as the labourer in England. I do not care at all how the Amendment is drafted, but I do care as to how the labourer is paid; and I say that the labourer in Ireland will earn his 25s. per week just as laboriously as the labourer in this country. I hope the Chief Secretary will have no hesitation in accepting the Amendment of my hon. Friend.
I would like to put it to the two right hon. Gentlemen opposite on the Government Bench, Is this a business proposition? Let us, I say, look at this matter from a common-sense point of view. We have heard both from the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland and from the right hon. Gentleman the Vice-President of the Board of Agriculture that they want more tillage in Ireland. As a matter of fact, that proposition has to a very large extent succeeded. Now we are met with a proposition that you should not give to the Irish labourer the same rate of wages as you were prepared to give to the labourer in this country. What, I ask the two right hon. Gentlemen opposite, will be the effect? How can you expect the Irish labourer to work for less wages in Ireland than he can get by crossing here to Great Britain? The primary object in this Bill is to increase tillage. In my view the proposition favoured by the Government is a suicidal one. Apparently it will defeat the very object that you have in view. It is quite evident that you cannot have increased corn production without labour. You are like the man who wants the train to go without the steam in the engine, or any motive power. Without labour you cannot have any produce. By refusing to give to the Irish labourer the same wage as is given to his brother in England you are taking away the factor which sets in motion the whole Corn Production Bill. I am looking at it from a business point of view [An HON. MEMBER: "NO, no."] Well, I hope I shall be corrected if I am wrong. I do not represent an agricultural constituency, and I do not pretend to know everything about it; but I know as a business man that when I was in trade if I did not give the same wages as my competitor I would simply not have got the labour. Now we have this extraordinary proposition from the, two right hon. Gentlemen who are supposed to be monuments of common-sense. [An HON. MEMBER: "Oh."] If they are not they ought to be. They have had considerable experience. But I cannot imagine this extraordinary proposition working out except as a kind of wage-miracle. It is precisely what in Ireland cannot be done. I do appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to think this matter over, because unless you get the co-operation of labour you certainly cannot produce corn. The first thing you have got to do is to satisfy the labourers, and how can agricultural Members go back to their constituencies and say, "We are satisfied to take less for you in Ireland than for England"? I trust the right hon. Gentleman will reconsider the position, and that things will be arranged in such a way as to give satisfaction to all parties.
I should like the right hon. Gentleman to tell us how a labourer in Ireland, England, or anywhere else can live at present under less than 25s. a week. I know very many cases of Irish labourers with families of five, six, and even more children. The legal obligation on those labourers is to support their wives and families, and I would like to know how they can do it even on 25s. a week, and is it not impossible for them to live upon less? Surely a poor man who works six days a week ought to receive for his hard labour sufficient to support his wife and family in comfort and pay his rent. That is really all I have got to say about the matter, and I hope now that the farmers have got guaranteed prices they will be compelled to discharge their obligations to the labourers, and give them sufficient to keep body and soul together, and not compel them to go about in rags and half-starved.
There are two or three misapprehensions in the minds of hon. Members who have addressed the Committee in favour of this Amendment. The hon. Member for Dublin (Mr. Field) said to the right hon. Gentleman and myself, "You will not give the Irish agricultural labourer the same wages as you are giving in England." If wages were being paid out of the Exchequer it would be a legitimate ground for reproach if we differentiated to an undue extent between labour in Ireland and labour for similar work in England under the same conditions, but that is not what is proposed. What is proposed here is not that the Treasury shall pay the wages, but that this House shall fix the rate of wages which the Irish farmer is to pay and the Irish labourer is to accept. I do not profess to have the intimate knowledge of Ireland to which the hon. Members who have addressed the Committee lay claim, but I am sure neither of them would feel much confidence in a decision of this Committee as to what ought to be the wages as between farmer and labourer in the various counties in Ireland. This Bill proposes what I venture to say is a system much more consonant to Irish ideas than the fixing of wages, say, for Connaught in the House of Commons at Westminster, and that is that the farmers and labourers in Connaught, or the farmers and labourers in Munster, with the assistance of an independent chairman, shall decide for themselves what wages shall be paid, having regard to the local conditions and the play of the market.
May I ask why that is not done in England? What is the reason for the differentiation of treatment?
That is a question which was discussed at considerable length in Debate on the main Clause here, and I confess the impression I derived from the reports of the discussion which reached me, and that which I heard, was that there was the greatest possible doubt whether it was a wise thing to introduce any fixed figure. [An HON. MEMBER: "It was done!"] It was done, but in a general way Members from Ireland were content not to have it done for Ireland. The first fallacy I venture to point out is the fallacy that something is being refused here by the Government to the Irish labourer. Nothing is being refused. The Irish labourer is going to be a party to fixing his own wages, and when they are being fixed no doubt the arguments of the hon. Member for Kildare (Mr. J. O'Connor) will have due effect. Then it seems to be assumed that the wages which are to be fixed will be less than 25s. I do not know why that is assumed.
I understand that is the datum line.
Quite true. The-e are parts of Ireland now where the agricultural labourer's wages are up to 25s., and even above it. When this matter was under discussion at an early period I ascertained what wages were being paid in Ireland. While there were counties where the wages were at a level which somewhat surprised me, I found that in many parts of the country, especially in Connaught, wages were as low as 10s., 11s., 12s., and 13s., and that in spite of the effects of the War. Now to suggest to the Committee that it is a prudent thing, and that it would tend either to tillage or employment or peace, that this House should impose upon districts where there are ruling rates of wages such as have been mentioned, or even lower than those mentioned, a sudden increase to 25s. a week without any particular knowledge of the local conditions, is to suggest something which, I think, would appear on consideration to be to a great extent delusive. Where the conditions in Ireland will support a wage of 25s. a week I have not the least doubt the Wages Board will secure it, but I ought to say to the Committee that in a very considerable number of counties the labourers have banded themselves together, have formed unions, have presented their demands to their employers, and have made agreements under which wages are now being regulated, and in some places I know they have made agreements that if the Wages Board should fix a higher sum, or fix a retrospective rate, the farmers will conform to the decision of the Wages Board. Is it not much better, where conditions are so totally different from the conditions in this country, and where they vary so much between one area and another in Ireland, that you should try the effect of the Wages Board?
I discussed this matter with the agricultural labourers—men as capable of dis- cussing their own conditions as any men I have ever met; some of them introduced by the hon. Member for Waterford, and some from other quarters—and what I was told at that time was, "We do not say you can fix a minimum wage for Ireland, where the conditions vary immensely, but we do say that if you give your Wages Board the sanction of law behind it we will take care we get proper wages." My sincere desire—and, I am sure, the desire of this Committee—is that the reproach upon Ireland as to the wages paid to labourers shall be removed. If it is not removed by the means provided in this Clause, some other means will be taken. My own belief, from such knowledge as I have gained of the present conditions of agriculture in Ireland, is that you should not attempt to stereotype any sum either as the minimum wage or the standard wage, but that you should allow the play of the market and the natural conditions to have their due effect, and by that means you will secure what is most beneficial to the labourers of Ireland, and a result far more beneficial than if you imposed a minimum wage of 25s. where, as I am assured, the farmer cannot pay it.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move, in paragraph ( b ), to leave out the words "and the provisions as to the retrospective effect of a minimum rate of wages for able-bodied men shall not apply."
This is a question whether the minimum wage should be fixed throughout. My Amendment raises the point, a minimum wage having been rejected, whether or not we should give retrospective effect to the adequate wage which I understand is the proposal of the Government and to which the Government adheres. I confess that I have not been able to understand why it is that the Chief Secretary should make a distinction as regards retrospective effect being given in the case of Ireland and in England. Retrospective effect is to be given as regards the English agricultural labourer's case, and the proposition of the right hon. Gentleman is that there should be no retrospective effect given in the Irish case I cannot understand what is the explanation. I do not see why you should propose to give retrospective effect in the case of England, and you should not give the same conditions to the labourers in Ireland. Why is the distinction sought to be made? The only conclusion I can come to is that the right hon. Gentleman thinks that it is only in the case of a minimum wage being fixed that retrospective effect can be given to the enactment, and evidently he thinks that the two things hang together. The right hon. Gentleman thinks that if you fix the minimum wage in pounds, shillings and pence, you may then enact that retrospective effect shall be given to the payment of the wage, but if you do not fix the minimum wage you cannot give retrospective effect to any legislation upon the subject.
I do not understand why the two things should hang together, and I have been trying to find out why the right hon. Gentleman has come to that conclusion. I imagine he thinks that the Wages Board will take some time to arrive at their conclusion. The farmer would not know for a long time what he has got to pay or what he is likely to be obliged to pay at the end of the period of investigation. I do not think that is a good reason, and let me give the right hon. Gentleman an illustration of what I say when I contend that there ought to be no difficulty in giving retrospective effect to legislation, whether it be an adequate wage or a fixed minimum wage. I am sure that by this time the right hon. Gentleman has become acquainted with the working of the Land Purchase Acts in Ireland. The law and practice in case of land purchase transactions is this: An agreement is entered into between the landlord and the tenant for the sale and purchase of an estate. A sum is fixed as the purchase price, but nobody knows until the transaction is completed by the advance of the money, and the vesting of the estate, whether that particular sum will be forthcoming from the public authority. If the sale falls through from any reason, whether it is because there is no money to be advanced or whether the public authority will not advance so much, the practice of the law is that if that transaction falls through there should be a return to the old arrangement, and the tenant may have to get from the landlord or the landlord may have to give to the tenant, or vice versâ, a sum which he never contemplated having to pay. He does not know what he has got to pay at the end, because he does not know how the transaction will turn out, but nevertheless he enters into the agreement, and sometimes the transaction turns out to be as expected and sometimes it does not. At any rate, the arrangement is entered into, and nobody complains. I do not know why in the case of the farmer and his labourer they should not enter into this agreement, although the sum is not fixed at the commencement, it being always understood by the farmer and the Labourer that he should get the difference, whatever it may be, although he does not precisely know at the start what it ought to be or what it must be. I do not pretend myself, living chiefly in Dublin, to have a very extensive acquaintance with rural Ireland, and therefore I cannot say what the expectations of both sides are, but speaking from personal experience, I assure the right hon. Gentleman that both sides expect that there will have to be paid a larger wage by way of arrears, and the labourer undoubtedly, without any exception, accepts the same thing. I do not think it would be wise for the Government to disappoint this general expectation, and I would certainly suggest, by moving this Amendment, that the right hon. Gentleman should not defeat, but that he should allow retrospective effect to be given, whether the wages be fixed now at a minimum rate of 25s. or an adequate wage which is the expression adopted in this Clause.
I wish to support the suggestion of my hon. Friend, which I think is only fair and reasonable. My hon. Friend the Member for North Kildare (Mr. J. O'Connor) has referred to the totally inadequate wages which have been paid in Ireland, but great changes have come about, and a great many of the agriculturists in Ireland have risen to the occasion and have considerably increased wages. I have had practical experience of this, nd the right hon. Gentleman the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture in Ireland (Sir T. Russell) is aware of one particular case to which I may refer as an illustration. When it came to a question of procuring labour from the West of Ireland for the south and other portions, it was suggested that the southern farmers should name a wage which they were prepared to pay. The systems in Ireland vary very much. In some parts employment is rather similar to employment in England. The worker is employed and lives in his own house and boards himself. In a large portion of Ireland, however, the men are employed and kept in the house. When it came to a question of employing the Western labourers, all the employers in Tipperary met and unanimously agreed to recommend a weekly wage of 15s. per week with board and house. That was a fine living wage. The example given by that Farmers' Association shows that the circumstances are different in different places. There should, therefore, be in this Bill a retrospective Clause, so that if in any district in Ireland you have employers who are not dealing fairly with their labourers and not rising to the occasion, as my friends in my Constituency did, the Wages Board will have the power to make up those wages to the amount to which they are fairly entitled.
The position which has to be dealt with here is not a simple one. If you had a state of things in which, as a general practice, a reasonable wage had been withheld and there had been no approach as between class and class, I do not think it would be at all oppressive to give a retrospective operation, at any rate to some extent, to the wage which you proposed to fix. The case is not exactly on all fours with the English case. When the scheme of legislative action to compel tillage in Great Britain was introduced, it was coupled with the suggestion of a minimum wage to take effect at the time that the tillage scheme took effect. At that time as far as inquiry into the matter could satisfy me as to what was right, I came to the conclusion that it would not be a sensible thing to suppose that the English conditions could supply any guide to the proper steps to be taken in Ireland, and that there must therefore be Wages Boards in England and Ireland. From that time the British labourer has been entitled to expect that his wage would be 25s. per week and that it would be retrospective if he were able-bodied. In Ireland, however, during the greater part of this year, as the hon. Member for South Tipperary (Mr. Cullinan) has described, the farmers and the labourers have been meeting together—the farmers are. associated in farmers unions and they are very much masters of their own proceedings, and the labourers have become very much more masters of their own destiny than they were—and have arrived at a result which encourages me in believing that I was not wrong in thinking that a minimum, wage of 25s. was not the best thing in Ireland. The wage which the hon. Member has mentioned is a much better wage than 25s. per week: I should think it was worth nearer 30s.
That is the state of things in Tipperary, a county where agriculture is highly organised, where the farmers are associated together in most useful and powerful associations, and where the labourers had to meet a combination of that kind. Take that as a typical case. The farmers and labourers have agreed that the right and fair thing is that a man shall get 15s. per week and his keep. Would it be fair to the farmers in Tipperary that I should put upon them by Act of Parliament a provision that a rate of wages which somebody else might fix at some future time should take effect and should take retrospective effect? It does seem to me that it is not a wise thing where parties have been able to come to terms to say. "We will set aside your agreement and bring in, not a statutory provision for the future, but a statutory provision having retrospective effect." I do not think it would be in the interests of the labourers or in the interests of good relationship between the farmers and the labourers. I will tell my hon. Friend the Member for North Dublin (Mr. Clancy) what I will do. If he found that among the farmers and labourers there was anything like a general readiness to consent to it, I would be willing, either by an Amendment to the Schedule or some other means, that the Wages Board should be entitled to take into consideration the point of time at which the demand for the increased wage was made. That would leave bargains now standing to take their natural effect. On the other hand, if there were delay in the decision of the Wages Board and men were out of pocket and not getting that which they ought to receive then the Wages Board could rectify it as to that period. If that would meet the practical necessities of the case, it is a thing which I should certainly most favourably entertain at a later stage.
I am glad the Chief Secretary has not met this proposal with an absolute negative, because I think that when he inquires further into the condition of affairs in Ireland—which I am bound to say he has very accurately described, seeing that he has interviewed all parties and thoroughly informed himself of what is the state of affairs in Ireland—and when he reflects on it a little more, he will see how much is to be said in favour of the Amendment of my hon. and learned friend the Member for North Dublin (Mr. Clancy). He endorsed the description of the condition of things as stated by the hon. Member for South Tipperary (Mr. Cullinan) as to the very creditable action of the Tipperary farmers. There are other districts in Ireland where farmers have shown a reasonable spirit and have met their labourers in a very fair way, so much so that our labour organisations, which, I am glad to say, in many Irish counties, particularly in the South, are powerful organisations and are prepared to meet the farmers and stand up for their rights, have been, I will not say completely satisfied, but, at all events, in some districts have been met in a not unreasonable spirit. What I would like to put before the Chief Secretary is this: He himself said that one of the striking features of the Irish situation is the enormous difference that prevails. I had a letter the other day from an agricultural labourer in a part of Ireland—I will not mention where, because I do not wish to be invidious; it really is a touching letter, and I will send it to the Chief Secretary— in which my correspondent alluded to some of those districts where the labourers had been met in a reasonable way, and said:
"In my district we have no organisation and nobody seems to think about us at all."
He went on to say that the wages were miserably and wretchedly low, and that is quite true. When the Wages Boards are started, and men like my correspondent get an opportunity of a fair hearing and some fair play and are put more or less on a level with labourers in the more favourable districts, I think the Board not only ought to have power to raise the labourers' wages, but to give direction, because these are districts where there will be delay and where the farmers, not having shown the spirit of fair play, will throw obstacles in the way of meeting the boards. There ought to be this power to enable the labourer to put forward a claim and for the board to grant that it should be retrospective so far as it is retrospective in the English part of the Bill. I know of a district where, without any excuse at all, the wages are from 10s. to 15s. below the wages fixed in South Tipperary. Would it not be reasonable that the labourers should obtain not only a rise in their wages, say, next September or October, but that they should get a certain amount of arrears which have been unjustly withheld from them owing to the weakness of the labourers in that district? That is only common fair play and justice. May I further say that the spring, the sowing time, and the harvest are the labourer's best times? When the winter comes he is very much at the mercy of his employer, who may discharge him. He may not be able to discharge him this year, because labour is so scarce, but in the winter a labourer is much more defenceless and much less in a position to press the employer for an increase of wages than at other times. Sometimes men get as much as 5s. and 6s. a day for harvest work and haymaking. We know that in the harvest time men are paid very much beyond the ordinary wage for emergency work. These boards may not come into operation until the harvest is nearly over; therefore the labourer may lose the very cream of the year before the wages are fixed at all. I put that consideration to the right hon. Gentleman, and possibly he may undertake to draft an Amendment on the same lines or bring forward some alternative Amendment on Report. I would strongly support the principle of the Amendment.
In view of the statement of the Chief Secretary, and the suggestion he has made, I do not think I can proceed with this Amendment, but I strongly press that the Chief Secretary will take some-action upon the suggestion he has made.
Perhaps my hon. and learned Friend will speak to me about this matter. I appreciate entirely what has been said by the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon), who carries my mind with him to a very considerable degree. There are practical difficulties in the way. I gather that my hon. and learned Friend wishes to withdraw this Amendment now, and if he will speak to me between now and the Report stage I hope we may be be able to do something which will meet the case hon. Members have put.
In that case I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
A manuscript Amendment has been handed in by the hon. Member for West Waterford (Mr. O'Shee) but it does not read. He proposes to leave out the word "not" and to insert the words; "such adequate wage as if it were a minimum rate of wages." I cannot make that read at all.
The Clause will read, with the Amendment:
"The provisions as to the retrospective effect of a minimum rate of wages for able-bodied men shall apply to such adequate wage as if it were a minimum rate of wages."
I think it reads all right.
With the addition of the word "to."
It means, in other words, that the minimum rate shall commence from the commencement of the Bill.
May I put it to the hon. Member as it will read? Under his proposal the Clause would run as follows:
"A reference to an adequate rate shall be substituted for the reference to the rate of at least twenty-five shillings a week, and the provisions as to the retrospective effect of a minimum rate of wages for able-bodied men shall apply to such adequate rate as if it were a minimum rate of wages."
Even now I do not understand it. Perhaps the hon. Member will explain it.
I beg to move, in Subsection (2), paragraph ( b ), to leave out the word "not" ["wages for able-bodied men shall not apply"].
This simply substitutes for a minimum rate of wages the adequate rate which is now a part of the Bill. We have passed for Ireland an adequate rate in substitution for the minimum rate for England. What I wish is that the adequate rate should run as if it were a minimum rate, in other words, that it should run from the same time as is prescribed in Clause 4, Sub-section (4) for the minimum rate in England, that is, from the date of the coming into operation of the Bill. It is the same question as that with which the right hon. Gentleman has just dealt. I handed in this Amendment before he made his statement, and I wanted to take the opportunity of emphasising, what has already been urged upon him by my hon. Friends, that this is a very important practical question, because these Wages Boards may not be set up for a considerable time and may be delayed in some counties. It is very difficult to form the personnel in some counties and the boards may not meet. The Regulations under which they meet have to be drawn up by the Department of Agriculture, and so on. There is certain to be a very long delay. It would be most unfair that this adequate rate which is to be fixed by these boards should not be made retrospective, at least from the commencement of the Act. I had an Amendment that the wage, whatever it may be, shall be fixed retrospective to the 19th of March last, because really the labourers of Ireland, since it was announced that this Bill would be passed into law, have been living in the hope every month, every week almost, since February last, when the Prime Minister made his speech on this subject, that this adequate or minimum rate of wages would take effect for their benefit. In many cases, of course, they have been organised. In many places their organisations have met the farmers' organisations, and have made arrangements; but I am speaking now on behalf of the unorganised labourers. They are the men who are suffering, who have not got it up to now, and who have been waiting in the hope that by legislation they would be put in the position to receive the adequate or the minimum rate. From week to week and month to month since February last they have been looking for this House to pass this Bill, so that this provision for their benefit would come into operation, and they have seen their hopes of the early passing of the Bill fade away.
Now they see that when this Bill passes they will have to wait for months again—until next spring probably, until the autumn season is passed away, and these Wages Boards are set up and have made their decisions. You have to set up a Wages Board in Dublin, and district boards in the country. They have to make their report. They have not the right to fix the minimum wage; they have simply to report to the Central Board in Dublin; and so you have reports coming from all the districts. You have a long delay in making these reports, and a delay which may be due to deliberate procrastination on the part of certain representatives of the employers on these district boards, and postponement for months again, so that these labourers will unfortunately go on waiting, in addition to the months that have already passed since they were promised by the Prime Minister that this measure would be put into effect for their benefit. Prices have taken effect already for the farmers' benefit, but the wages have not taken effect during the season that these labourers have been working to produce the crops in respect of which the prices have taken effect, though wages have not taken effect in many thousands of oases in Ireland as well as in this country. The President stated the other day that even at the present time in the South of England he knew of cases where wages were only 16s. for agricultural labourers, notwithstanding the statement as to the minimum wage being 25s. and as to the promise of the Prime Minister on that subject.
The only point the hon. Gentleman is entitled to raise here is the question of what rate of wages shall be paid in retrospection. Anything he has to say must be strictly confined to that, because the question of whether there should be a minimum rate of wages in Ireland has been settled and negatived by the Committee. Now we are dealing with the minor point of the wages to be paid retrospectively, and it is only on that that he must address his remarks to the Committee.
10.0 P.M.
That is what I want to press the right hon. Gentleman to look into, to see that this adequate rate shall be retrospective. I would suggest that it should be retrospective to at least the 1st July, but if he cannot do that it certainly should be retrospective to the date of the passing of this Act.
The Wages Tribunal will have comprehensive authority in dealing with this problem, and it should include some discretion as to the period with regard to which this should be retrospective. That is within certain limits, but at any rate some discretion should be left to the Wages Tribunal.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), after paragraph ( b ), to insert,
"( c ) in the application to Ireland of Section three, Sub-section (3), the penalty shall be a fine not exceeding fifty pounds or a period of imprisonment not exceeding six months."
The Amendment has reference to Clause 3 of the Bill. Subjection (3) deals with the penalty to be imposed in the case of any person making a claim for the bounty provided under the Act for himself or for anybody else. The provision of the Sub-section is, "If for the purpose of obtaining a payment under this Part of this Act either for himself or for any other person, any person makes any false statement or false representation he shall be liable on summary conviction to imprisonment, with or without hard labour, for a term not exceeding six months." The reason I find it absolutely necessary to have an Amendment in the Irish Clause is that under the Summary Jurisdiction Act for England of 1879 power is given in England to a Court of summary jurisdiction, where an Act of Parliament provides for a penalty of imprisonment without a fine, to disregard that provision in the Act of Parliament and impose a fine as a penalty instead of imprisonment. That Act of 1879 does not, however, apply to Ireland, and as this Clause is drafted in Sub-section (3) if on being brought before a Court any person was convicted for an offence under this Section, the Court of summary jurisdiction in Ireland would have no alternative but to inflict imprisonment. My object in moving this Amendment is to place the Courts of summary jurisdiction in Ireland in the same position as similar Courts in England. I am sure this only requires to be stated to the right hon. Gentleman in order to secure its acceptance.
I am ready to accept this Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move to leave out paragraph ( c ), and to insert instead thereof the following,
"( c ) Where a person other than the occupier was on the first day of September in the year in which wheat or oats were produced entitled under a conacre agreement to the use of the land on which they were produced, that person shall be substituted for the occupier for the purpose of any payments in respect of wheat or oats under Part I. of this Act."
This is merely a drafting Amendment now, because the Committee has accepted the proposal. The words proposed to be inserted will, I believe, be found generally acceptable. They are intended to take account of the fact that there has been a. great deal of tillage going on, especially in this year, under conacre, and to secure to the conacre man the benefits which it is intended the occupier should secure.
Amendment agreed to.
I do not know whether the hon. Member for Waterford (Mr. O'Shee) wishes to move his Amendment to the Amendment which has just been agreed to as a separate proposition? it is the one about 55s.
Yes. I beg to move, after the words last inserted, to add the words,
"In the application of Part I. of this Act the minimum prices for wheat and oats shall for the years nineteen hundred and twenty, nineteen hundred and twenty-one, and nineteen hundred and twenty-two be for wheat per quarter 55s. and for oats per quarter 32s."
It is, perhaps, too much to hope that the right hon. Gentleman will accept this Amendment, but at the same time I wish to move it for the purpose of stating that I do so chiefly for the purpose of securing a promise that once this scheme of tillage has been started it shall go on. I fear that, owing to the diminution from 55s. in 1919 to 45s. in the case of wheat and the diminution from 32s. to 24s. in the case of oats, there will be a rapid declension in tillage in Ireland as well as in Great Britain. I fear that all the more because, the standard of wages being raised, that standard will, I hope, not be allowed to decline. Therefore, from the point of view of the labourer, as well as from the point of view of the cultivator of the land, I should hope that, even though this Amendment cannot now be accepted, it is possible that we may have legislation before 1919 has passed away by which the minimum prices for the three following years, which are reduced under Clause 2 of this Bill from the minima obtaining in the preceding years, shall be raised to the same level. I beg formally to move.
My hon. Friend who has moved this Amendment has forecasted the impossibility of my being able to accept it. It would add a new terror to the War if we were during the year 1917 to decide by Act of Parliament that the price of wheat in 1922 shall be 55s. a quarter. My hon. Friend, I am sure, does not suppose that I could be a party to a decision of that kind at this time.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in Subsection (2), paragraph ( d ), to leave out the words "shall not apply," and to insert instead thereof the words "in its application to Ireland shall have effect subject and without prejudice to the provisions of the Land Law (Ireland) Acts, and, in fixing the judicial rent of a holding after the passing of this Act, the Court shall not take into consideration the operation of Part I. or Part II. of this Act as respects the holding or tenant."
This Amendment is intended to give effect to an undertaking which I entered into upon the discussion of the Bill on Second Reading. Hon. Members pointed out that there was a possible risk that the fundamental differences between the land systems in Ireland and in this country might not avail to protect the Irish tenant absolutely from some consequences which they apprehended. That was a fear to which I certainly should be quite ready to give all the weight it deserved; and, as I am advised, the Amendment which is here produced will make it quite clear that there shall be no interference with the land system in Ireland under the cloak of this Bill, and that the same advantages which tenants in this country are secured by the protective operations of the several parts of this Bill will be extended to the occupiers of land in Ireland.
I was, I think, the first, to draw attention to the fears apprehended, and I think the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Duke) has completely met the objections then made by the Amendment now made.
Amendment agreed to.
That, I think, covers the one next following on the Paper, does it not?
No, Sir. I beg to move, after the words last inserted, to add the words,
"In any case where a rent has not been fixed under the Land Law (Ireland) Acts, or any of them, by agreement or otherwise, Section six of this Act shall apply with the addition that the withdrawal of any abatement heretofore usually given in respect of the rent payable by the tenant shall be deemed to be an increase of rent within the meaning of the said Section."
The Amendment which the right hon. Gentleman has now moved and carried deals only with the case of what are called non-judicial tenants in Ireland, namely, those tenants who have had their rents fixed under the Land Law (Ireland) Acts. My Amendment, which I hope you will allow me to move, deals with the non-judicial tenants, namely, with the case of the tenant who has no judicial rent fixed. I do not imagine for a moment that the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary will oppose this Amendment. The non-judicial tenant in Ireland, namely, the tenant who has not yet got a rent fixed through the Land Law Acts and cannot get a rent fixed under the Land Law Acts in respect of his holding, is in precisely the same case as the ordinary English tenant for whom provision is made as regards the raising of rents. I think the right hon. Gentleman will recognise the truth of the statement I have made. It is this. We have dealt with the case of the tenant whose rent has been fixed or who could get his rent fixed by a judicial tribunal in Ireland. This Amendment, which I propose to move, deals with the case of the tenant who has not his rent fixed and who cannot get a rent fixed by any judicial tribunal under any Land Act in Ireland. This tenant corresponds exactly with the case of the ordinary agricultural tenant in Ireland for whom no provision, such as has been made for fixing rents in Ireland has been made by any Act of which I am aware up to the present moment. If you do not enact this protection for the non-judicial tenant you will be making a discrimination between the same sort of tenant in England and in Ireland. I do not suppose the right hon. Gentleman wishes to do that. If he does, he must accept this Amendment, or something like it.
On a point of Order. The reference here is to Section 6 in the Act. That Clause has already been withdrawn.
It is only postponed.
I appreciate what my hon. and learned Friend desires to do here. He has entered on an analogy between the case of the English tenant under the ordinary farming agreement and what is called the future tenant in Ireland. The case of the future tenant in Ireland is very advantageous compared with that of the ordinary English agricultural tenant. He has protection against displacement, which goes far beyond anything in the ordinary English relationship of landlord and tenant. If the case to be dealt with here was the case of a man whose real rent was something other than his nominal rent—that is, if his real rent were being increased under cover of this Act contrary to the intention of the Act, no doubt it would be desirable to prevent that, but I really cannot see that a man who usually got an abatement would be entitled to complain, if he did not get an abatement, that his rent had been increased. If the rent was a fixed sum and his landlord for any reason usually gave him an abatement, that does not alter the amount of his rent I have great diffculty in conceiving any form of words which would secure the object my hon. and learned Friend has in view. If the true rent is a sum other than that which appears in the agreement, the tenant is protected by the Act, but if that is not the true rent the Act does not give him protection.
There was, and I have no doubt still is in Ireland an extremely common practice that the rent of an estate as it appeared in the rent roll was not the rent the landlord received at all. I have often come across cases where the landlord declined to reduce his rents, but gave abatements, and that system was largely discovered in the working of the Land Courts when sales took place, and for years the rent received was not the rent on the rent roll, but that rent minus 20 per cent., or some abatement. If they saw that agricultural prices were improving they reverted to their old rent, and then they said they had raised their rent. That is a system which, if it still prevails in Ireland, ought to be provided for, because the landlord who was in the habit of giving a 20 per cent, abatement for twenty years, if he took advantage of the Act to withdraw the abatement without any legal process whatever and without any process which could be technically described as raising his rent, would actually be raising his rent. That is what my hon. Friend wants to protect the tenant against.
These cases are very common. My attention was called, in connection with this Clause, to a large estate in my own Constituency, where the tenants have been getting bought out under the Purchase Acts and for nearly thirty years they have been getting an abatement of 20 per cent. of their rent. It was merely a nominal rent. It is quite possible, unless some provision is inserted to protect these tenants, that the nominal rent may be asked for next rent day.
Can the hon. Member tell me whether in these cases of exacting what he calls a nominal rent the tenant is entitled to compensation?
The tenant has no redress. His legal rent is, say, £50. He gets 20 per cent, reduction on that—that is 4s. in the £. He gets a receipt for the full rent—£40 cash and £10 abatement, total £50. He has been getting that for over twenty years. One of the tenants called my attention to this, and he said he feared that in consequence of this Bill raising the price of corn the landlord would stop this abatement which has been going on for over twenty years—I think over thirty years. This was a bargain to keep them out of the land Courts. The tenant wrote me saying he feared that in consequence of this Bill the agent for the landlord, who is an absentee, would ask the tenants to pay the full rent, or at least take off portion of this abatement. There is no provision in the Bill to meet that. If you do not put in these words there will be nothing to protect the tenants. You protect the tenants on a judicial holding. Why cannot you protect these tenants?
Amendment negatived.
Further Amendments made: In paragraph ( e ) leave out the words "shall apply to Ireland, except that," and insert instead thereof the words "in its application to Ireland shall have effect subject to the further following modifications."
Leave out the words "and that such further modifications may be made as the Lord Lieutenant in Council may direct for the purpose of adapting the provisions of that Part of this Act to any scheme of tillage in force in Ireland at the commencement of this Act, and to any special conditions of land tenure in Ireland; and," and insert instead thereof the words
"(ii) the powers of entering on and taking possession of land and cultivating the land or adapting it for cultivation may be exercised both as respects land in the occupation of a tenant and as respects land not in the occupation of a tenant; and
(iii) the provisions with respect to that determination of tenancies shall not apply."
For the purpose of enforcing proper cultivation of land in Ireland the additional provisions set out in the Second Schedule to this Act shall have effect as. if they were included in fart IV. of this Act."—[Mr. Duke. ]
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand-part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 13.—(Short Title and Duration.)
(1) This Act may be cited as the Corn, Production Act, 1917.
(2) This Act shall continue in force until: the end of the year nineteen hundred and twenty-two, and no longer, unless meanwhile Parliament makes provision for the continuation thereof, but the expiration of this Act shall not affect the right to any payments under Part I. of this Act in respect of wheat and oats of that year or any previous year, or any rights, privileges, obligations, or liabilities acquired, accrued, or incurred under this Act before the date of the expiration thereof, or any penalty, forfeiture, or punishment incurred in respect of any offence committed under this Act before that date.
Amendment made: At the end of Subsection (2) add the words "or in respect of any statement or representation made in connection with a claim under this Act, whether the statement, representation, or claim was made before or after that date."—[ Mr. Prothero. ]
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand' part of the Bill.
Postponed Clause 6 ( Rents not to be raised as a consequence of minimum prices ).
I beg to move, "That the consideration of the postponed Clause 6 be postponed until after the consideration of the new Government Clause, in substitution for the original Clause."
Question put, and agreed to.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman what further progress he intends to make to-night?
We want to get: Clause 6.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Appointment And Powers of Officers.)
(1) The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries may appoint such officers as they think necessary for the purpose of investigating complaints and otherwise securing the proper observance of Part II. of this Act, and any officer so appointed shall, if the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries so determine, act under the directions of the Agricultural Wages Board.
(2) Any officer so appointed shall have power—
( a )to require the production of and to inspect and take copies of wages sheets or other records of wages paid to workmen employed in agriculture;
( b )to require the employer of any such workman to give any information which it is in his power to give with respect to the employment of the workman or the wages paid to him.
(3)If any person refuses to produce any document or give any information which any officer requires him to produce or give under this Section, or produces or gives to any officer acting in the exercise of the powers given by this Section any document or information knowing the same to be false, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months with or without hard labour.—[ Mr. Prothero. ]
Brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move "That the Clause be read a second time."
This Clause, which is taken from the Trade Boards Act, empowers us to appoint officers to investigate cases of complaints which may arise under the Agricultural Wages Boards.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause added to the Bill.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Complaints as to the Inadequate Payment for Piece-work where no Minimum Piece-rate has been Fixed.)
Any workman employed in agriculture on piece-work for which no minimum piece-rate has been fixed, or any person authorised by such a workman, may complain to the Agricultural Wages Board that the piece-rate of wages paid to the workman for that work is such a rate as would yield in the circumstances of the case to an ordinary workman a less amount of wages than the minimum time-rate applicable in the case of that workman, and the Board may on any such complaint direct that the employer shall pay to the workman such additional sum by way of wages for any piece-work done by him at that piece-rate at any time within one month before the date of complaint, or at any time after the date of complaint, and before the decision of the Board thereon, as in the opinion of the Board represents the difference between the amount which would have been paid if the work had been done by an ordinary workman at; the minimum time-rate and the amount actually received by the workman making the complaint, and any sum so directed to be paid may be recovered by the workman from the employer summarily as a civil debt.—[ Mr. Prothero. ]
Brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."
This Clause, which relates to payment for piece-work is in redemption of a pledge which I gave at an early stage of the Bill. It is obvious that if piece-rates came generally into use they might be used as a means of evading the minimum wage. You cannot possibly standardise piece-rates in agriculture. For instance, the piece-rates for laying an ordinary hedge will depend on a variety of conditions, which may differ. Similarly, in hoeing the rate will depend largely on the state of the land, the particular texture of the soil, and even on the state of the weather. The hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Wardle) and the hon. Member for Barrow (Mr. Duncan) moved an Amendment which made it an offence to pay for piece-work less than a minimum time-wage. That was in a Clause in the old Trade Boards Act, but it was hardly applicable to agriculture. The Clause which we propose will give to the labourer, we believe, adequate protection against the use of piece-rates for the purpose of reducing the minimum wage, and yet not make it a penal offence in a case of this sort, which will depend upon a great variety of local circumstances. It enables a man to go to the employer and make a bargain, and it imposes no penalty if one or the other is wrong. Piece-work is paid generally at a higher rate than are weekly wages, and it is the best means of differentiating the more skilful workers from the other workers. It is quite desirable that the system should he maintained, and the labourer is secured from any danger.
I wish to raise the point that if a workman has received for piece work less than the standard minimum wage, will he be entitled to recover it from the employer summarily as a civil damage? That means, I assume, that he would have to summon the employer to the County Court. What is to prevent the farmer from retaliating by giving the workman notice to quit his house? A large number of the agricultural labourers live in houses provided by the farmer or the landlord, and I have been seriously pondering this subject as to what protection there is for the labourer in the event of a dispute with his employer. What is to prevent the latter from turning the man out by giving him notice to quit? Is there any provision in the Bill? It is a real and serious danger, for in the vast majority of cases the estate cottages are occupied by the labourers, or cottages provided by the fanner. Of course, the great bulk of farmers would not dream of taking advantage of labourers in this way, but there may be some farmers who would do so. If a provision cannot be inserted at this point, I ask the President of the Board of Agriculture to carefully consider the matter, in order that some protection may be provided for the labourer against his being suddenly given notice to quit and rendered homeless. For it must not be forgotten that the housing question in rural districts is a very difficult one. I can conceive of nothing which would be more detrimental to good feeling between employer and employed than those that the labourer should have to summon the farmer. I am convinced that some such protection as I suggest should be given to the labourer. If the labourer received notice to quit, because of a dispute, he might really be rendered homeless, for he might not be able to get another dwelling, and the farmer, in this way, would be able to inflict the severest penalty on the man. I submit that the President of the Board of Agriculture should carefully consider the insertion of some provision giving the labourer protection within the four corners of the Bill.
I am very much afraid that this Clause would do a great deal of harm and no good. There is nothing to compel a workman to work by piece, but if he works by piece he does so by his own free will, and if he finds that he cannot earn as much as the minimum wage, he might say that he would just go on with the work he was at for the wage set up by the Wages Board as the proper wage to be paid for time work. Therefore the workman is not injured in any kind of way. The result of this Clause may be when a workman has made an arrangement with a farmer to do work at a certain piece rate "any person authorised by such a workman" may come down and, in order to satisfy the Board that the man was not earning sufficient, tell him to do as little as possible on the piece work. The money paid for piece work depends on how the labourer works. The labourer is very unlikely to make an arrangement to earn by piece work less than he can do by time, and I should think it is almost impossible. Suppose he makes an arrangement by which he can earn 27s., the minimum rate being 25s., and someone comes down and says, "You might have done better. Do not work so hard, and the result will be you will only earn 24s., and I will go to the Wages Board on your behalf and will point out you made too low a rate." Human nature being what it is, I think it is quite possible that sort of thing might succeed, and the result would be friction between the labourer and the farmer, and endless litigation before the Wages Board and delay in the work. The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that the chief thing with the farmer is to get the work done. It is not like a factory, as advantage has to be taken of the season and the weather to enable the work to be done in as quick a time as possible The farmer does not want to have the time taken up with agitation and complaints and disagreements, and occupied before Wages Boards. If the Clause is passed in its present form I certainly think the words "or any person authorised by such a workman" should be left out. I cannot conceive why those words are put in or who suggested them. They seem to me to put a premium on litigation. I trust that the Clause will not be passed, and, if it is, that those words will be left out.
I only rise to say that so far as I have been able to consider the matter the Clause moved by the right hon. Gentleman is a full and adequate carrying out of the undertaking that he made to the hon. Member who raised the question at an earlier stage of the Bill. I think it meets the case which that hon. Member raised, and I think that hon. Member, if he were here, would admit it. As a comment on what the right hon. Baronet as just said I venture to point out that the Clause says, not that if the labourer had made less at piece rates than he would have made on time rates … that he has cause for complaint; but if be can show that the piece rates are such that they would have yielded, in the case of an ordinary workman, a less amount than the time rate, that then he shall be entitled to get his piece rate made up to the time rate. That is what the new Clause says. It does not require that a man must be a slacker, but that he must either go himself or get someone else to go and claim that the wages ought to be made up to what he would have got on time rates. The Clause, I am glad to say, does not help the slacker. A deliberate slacker would meet the penalty he deserves by failing altogether to establish any case whatever before the Wages Board; and I think the case is absolutely and adequately met, and I think the Clause is quite right.
The words of the Clause are: "Which would have been paid had the work been done by an ordinary workman at time rates." How can you say what would have been done of any particular piece of work which varies according to the time it is done? As the right hon. Gentleman knows, it is very much easier to cut a hedge at the present time when the wood is not hard. If you wait a little longer it is much harder to cut the hedge, and you do not do as much work in the same time. How on earth are you to tell what can be done by an ordinary workman unless you take a particular piece of work, a particular workman, and a particular time? You cannot prove what a fictitious ordinary workman can do. The only possible way in which you can prove your case would be to prove that the man in question, though he had been working harder than the ordinary working man, had not earned the amount necessary to make up the minimum time rate wage. Therefore, I think that my statement was quite right, because the words as they appear now will be no protection whatever.
There are real objections, which are really inherent in the Bill itself. If you are to have a minimum wage you will have to arrange for a day's work. But I particularly rose to call attention to what fell from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Molton with regard to the last words of the Clause. I do not quite see why it is necessary to put a man in the position that after he has once brought his employer before the Board and has proved his case—if he does—that he shall again have to bring him before the Court and recover the money as a civil debt. Legally it may be necessary; but I should have thought it would have been possible for the Board to make an arrangement by which when the matter has been decided by the Board it should be unnecessary for the man to bring the employer before the Court.
The Committee will realise that in any new legislation of this sort there are difficulties which may be met with at almost every turn, but you must remember the circumstances in which this particular case will come up. It will be brought before the Wages Board consisting of equal representatives of farmers and labourers. They know quite well what the piece rates ought to be, and I venture to submit to the Committee that if a farmer pays an unfair rate public opinion in the farming community is just as strong and just as good as that of any other section of the community, and I am sure brother farmers would condemn such a practice as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) with his usual skill has delineated. That sort of cases might arise, but I am perfectly sure the Wages Board, constituted as it is, would deal out a wholesome method of public condemnation which would be very useful in this respect. As to the cottage question, of course the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the South Molton Division (Mr. Lambert) is perfectly right. The housing question is one of the great difficulties in the whole agricultural system, but when the right hon. Gentleman says that the overwhelming majority of the cottages are let direct to the farmer I should rather join issue. I have had a statement, the figures being verified, and probably verified in every possible way, that out of some 22,000 cottages—I admit it is only a small proportion—in this country upwards of 40 per cent were let direct to the labourer, and it has been the practice for many years on the estate with which I am connected at all events never to let a cottage except direct to the labourer, and I believe that if the Committee went into the question they would find that the practice prevails more largely than the right hon. Gentleman supposes. But I frankly admit that the possibility of a man being turned out of his cottage may exist. On the other hand, if a tribunal of farmers said the piece rates were too low, I venture to think the farming opinion of the neighbourhood would not tolerate a brother farmer turning out a man under these circumstances. Although I admit this Clause presents a good many difficulties, which are natural in any legislation of so novel a character as this, on the whole it is the only way you can deal with an undoubted danger, namely, that by means of piece rates a farmer may avoid the minimum wage.
The right hon. Gentleman has not dealt with the point I raised, namely, what is the object of the last words of the Clause, "and any sum so directed to be paid may be recovered by the workman from the employer summarily as a civil debt"? Why should not the Board order it to be paid without the man having to recover it in a Court of law?
It is the only legal way in which the man can recover. I do not know of any other legal way.
The right hon. Gentleman has not answered my question why the words "any person authorised" should be put in? I would also like to ask him the reason for the words "one month before the date." The complaint ought to be made at once. A farmer may have all his men on piecework, and, after working twenty-seven days, he may suddenly find all his men have made a complaint, all his work will be upset, and he will not know what he is paying or has to pay in the future. I think the time is much too long, and I shall certainly move to leave out "one month" and insert "fourteen days," and to leave out "or any person authorised by such a work- man." Perhaps it would be more convenient if I allowed the Clause to be read a second time.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause read a second time.
I beg to move to leave out the words "or any person authorised by such a workman."
The Government are going to accept a new Clause on the Paper in the names of the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Wardle) and the hon. Member for Deptford (Mr. Bowerman), dealing with complaints as to infraction of minimum rates of wages. The opening: words of the Clause are: "Any workman employed in agriculture, or any person authorised by a workman so employed," and the words in the Clause under discussion are taken for that Clause. The reason for this is obvious. The agricultural labourer is not the most articulate person in the world, and to allow him to be represented through his union secretary or some other authorised person is only common justice. Therefore I think those words ought to stand.
Now I see the reason. The new Clause referred to stands in the name of two hon. Members connected with the trade union movement. I think this proposal is a very great mistake, and will tend to make trouble and not to allay it. I had not much opinion of the Clause before, but I think still less of it now. I presume that it is not any use putting the House to a Division, but I will not withdraw my Amendment,
Amendment negatived.
I move to leave out the words "one month" ["within one month before the date of complaint"], and to insert instead thereof the words "fourteen days."
I am quite ready to accept those words.
I think fourteen days is too short.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, to leave out the words "as a civil debt."
I move this Amendment in order to ask whether these words mean that the man has to put his employer into the County Court, because he ought to be able to recover his wages before the magistrates.
The word "summarily" means before the magistrates.
Amendment negatived.
Clause, as amended, added to the Bill.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Rents not to be Raised in Consequence of Act.)
(1) The rent payable under any contract of tenancy made after the passing of this Act in respect of an agricultural holding shall, notwithstanding any agreement to the contrary, not exceed such amount as could have been obtained if Part I. of this Act had not been in force, and any question as to whether the rent payable under such a contract is in excess of the rent permitted by this Section or as to the amount of the excess shall be determined by a single arbitrator under and in accordance with the provisions of the Second Schedule to the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1908:
Provided that the rent payable under a contract of tenancy shall not be deemed to be in excess of that permitted under this Section, unless notice requiring the question to be referred to arbitration has been served on the landlord within one year from the commencement of the tenancy.
(2) If on any such arbitration it is determined that the rent payable under the contract of tenancy is in excess of the amount permitted under this Section, the contract shall, as from the commencement of the tenancy, have effect as if the rent payable under the contract was reduced by the amount of the excess.
(3) This Section shall not affect any proceeding by a landlord for enforcing payment of any rent except so far as the rent has before the commencement of such proceedings been determined in manner here-before provided to be in excess of the rent permitted by this Section, but any rent in excess of the rent permitted by this Section which is paid or recovered before the award of the arbitrator shall be recoverable by the tenant from the landlord by way of deduction from rent or otherwise.
(4) In this Section expressions have the same meaning as in the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1908.
Brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."
11.0 P.M.
This is the Government Clause which is substituted for the original Clause 6, and it is very important. The Clause originates in the Prime Minister's pledge. It is a fulfilment of the pledge that no landlord should be allowed to divert to his own use benefits which are intended for the tenant. Before the Prime Minister made that statement in the House the landlords of this country had already taken steps in that direction. There was a remarkable letter published in the papers from some of the principal landlords, saying that they did not intend to raise their rents on the War prices, and so far as my experience goes that has been the rule throughout the country. I should not myself have thought that this Clause was necessary. I believe that the same result would have been obtained voluntarily, and that the landlords, who throughout this Bill have got nothing and who have been asked to make very heavy sacrifices, would have abstained from raising rents with the same spirit of patriotism that has sent them and their sons to the front without any exception. In order to raise the rent you want a new contract of tenancy, and, except by agreement, a new contract of tenancy in the case of yearly tenants requires a notice to quit. The first edition of the Clause only applied to existing tenancies. It did not apply to a new tenant, and it did not apply to tenants whose leases were expiring. It applied only to existing: tenants or sitting tenants on whom notice to quit was served. As a matter of logic that position was extremely difficult to defend. Why should you deny the same protection to a man whose lease expires, or why should you deny the same protection to a man who succeeds to a vacant farm? That position further was made very difficult by some complications which arose out of the differences between the law of Scotland and of England. A further point is this: Under the original Clause as it stands the question to be decided was, what was the motive of the landlord in giving notice to quit? Was it his intention to put into his own pocket the rise of rent which was due to Part I. of the Bill? Further, it was thrown upon the Board of Agriculture to decide the extraordinarily difficult question of the psychology of the British landlord. The new Clause proceeds on a more logical and more straightforward line. It applies to all tenants, new and yearly. It leaves the landlord free to raise his rent for any reason which operates before the passing of this Bill, but it gives the tenant the right to have decided the question whether the rent so raised would have been obtained without Part I. of the Bill, so that the question to be decided is no longer one of motive, but is a question of fact—could the rent have been obtained without Part I. of the Bill? This question of fact is to be decided not by the Board, but by an arbitrator.
These are the main differences, broadly speaking, between the two Clauses. As I have said, under the new Clause the landlord has the right to raise his rent for any of the causes for which he could have raised it before the Bill was passed into law. For instance, he could raise it because his repairs had doubled in expense, he could raise it because the mortgage interest was raised, he could raise it because the tithe had increased, he could raise it again because the land before the Bill was passed was underlet, as frequently is the case. He could raise his rent on all these, and on all other grounds on which he could have raised it before the Bill passed, but at the same time, in comes there the Prime Minister's pledge, and the tenant has the right to have determined the question whether that rent so raised could have been obtained without the operation of Part I. of the Bill. That, I submit, is a simpler, more straightforward and more logical method than the original Clause of dealing with this very difficult question. I also should like to add that the limitations as to the extent of the holding and as to the proportion of arable and grass upon it have been removed. They are no longer included in the Clause. That was an Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Wardle), the hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. O. Duncan) and other hon. Members. The Clause applies to all holdings of whatever size and whether grass or arable. If any tenant chooses to dispute a rise of rent on a purely grass farm and goes to an arbitrator and says, "My rent is being raised, under this Corn Production Bill, of my purely grass farm," I do not suppose the arbitrator would listen to him for a moment. It seems to me, therefore, that this Clause puts the case much more suitably, and I only regret that I should have put the Committee to the inconvenience, and in some ways the loss of time, of putting Amendments down to the old Clause, many of which the new Clause renders unnecessary.
Will the right hon. Gentleman explain why he has extended it from yearly tenancies to leasehold?
It seems to me impossible to defend the position that when a lease expires the landowner should in that case be free to take advantage of Part I., whereas in the case of a yearly tenancy, where he has to proceed by a notice to quit, he cannot. It seems to me to be an illogical position, and I have abandoned the original Clause.
I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his new Clause, which appears to me to be a very great improvement upon his old Clause. All the old difficulties to which he alluded are removed, and the limitation, which I regarded as objectionable, is removed by the wording of the new Clause. I had myself put down three Amendments to the Clause which have all been met by the new Clause most satisfactorily. I may just point out that Sub-section (2) of the original Clause—"This Section shall apply only where the amount of arable land on the holding exceeds one-tenth of the area of the holding and is at least five acres in extent"—was what I moved out. It would have been disastrous to Scotland because, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, almost every large farm in Scotland has a large amount of mountain and heath land, and that would have prevented Scotland taking any advantage of this part of this Clause. I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for that. I am afraid he will think me greedy, but I wish he could go a little further with regard to the arbitrator. It does not appear to me quite satisfactory that it should be an arbitrator in every special case that should determine this question. An independent third party, yes. I objected to the Board of Agriculture doing it, because I did not think they should be mixed up in a question of this kind. It does not appear to me to be very desirable to have an arbitrator, because you never get a body of decisions if you do. If you get a court you have rules laid down which become known, and which save an immense amount of time in the future. It is a court of record, and its decisions can always be referred to; they are open to everybody, and in that way a very large amount of litigation is saved. I think in a matter of this kind we should have an authority whose decisions are given in open court; and then very soon we will know how that court will interpret the Act. I hope the President will find some means of giving a court of that character power to determine these questions. I conclude by saying I think this new Clause is an immense improvement on the other, and the right hon. Gentleman ought to get it very quickly.
I think the Committee is greatly indebted to the right hon. Gentleman for having re-drafted this Clause in the manner he has done and for the very great attention he has given to the representations made to him. I put the question I did with regard to yearly tenancies not because I thought for a single moment that the landlords in Scotland, where we have a system of leaseholds varying from fifteen to nineteen years, should have any greater power of increasing rents under any new leases in consequence of this Act, or that the landlords of yearly tenants should be able to do so, and not because the landlord cares a bit whether he extends the lease or renews the lease or does not. He probably will continue to carry on the farm at the old rent. But that would not suit the tenant very well, and it was in the interests of the tenant that I put the question, because if you establish freedom of contract the landlord is not likely to renew the lease. It is not very easy to draft an Amendment which will permit that freedom and at the same time limit the right of the landlord to increase the rent. I did not propose to move an Amendment at all, because I found difficulty myself in doing it, but I have no doubt whatever that the tenants in many cases will find themselves at a disadvantage because the landlord will prefer not to renew the lease. With regard to a Court to deal with these matters which would set up a series of decisions, you could never have that in a case of this kind. Every case must stand on its merits. On the other hand, in Scotland there is only one possibility, and that is to refer all these cases to the Sheriffs' Courts. You cannot get decisions in all the Sheriffs' Courts in Scotland that are likely to be on consistent lines, and I do not suppose anyone would suggest that the Land Court in Scotland should deal with these cases and formulate a series of decisions such as the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. Molteno) desires. I think on the whole the Clause as it stands is very satisfactory and should be left alone.
I desire to call attention to one phrase, and that is "tenancies made after the passing of this Act." I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that it was intended to protect not only future tenants but also existing tenants, and obviously as originally drawn the Clause was intended to carry that out. I assume it is taken for granted that no alteration of the rent can be made except by a new agreement; otherwise, by a new tenancy. I am not at all sure that that is really right in law. Take the case of an annual tenant. All the terms of the agreement are to remain except only the question of rent. It is agreed that the Clause relating to rent shall be varied, and I am not quite prepared to admit that that will be a new contract of tenancy. If the right hon. Gentleman is advised that merely varying the rent constitutes a new contract of tenancy within the meaning of the Clause, present and existing tenants would be protected, but if that is so I do not quite understand what is the meaning of the words "made after the passing of this Act." If it is intended to protect existing tenants why not leave these words out, with the result, of course, that
"the rent payable under any contract of tenancy in respect of an agricultural holding shall, etc."
That would clear up the point and make it quite clear that both the existing and the future tenant would be protected, as I understand is the intention of this Clause. Then the hon. Member (Mr. Molteno) suggested that something should be substituted for the arbitrator towards the end of the Clause. I think there is a good deal to be said for that. There is a great deal of dissatisfaction with the decisions of single arbitrators. They are generally drawn from a certain class. I have an Amendment down later for the appointment of a Committee and the reference thereto of all disputes between landlords and tenants under this Act to a Committee. I do not press that for the moment, but I should like an assurance that the right hon. Gentleman is satisfied that the mere variation of one of the terms of an existing agreement, the term relating to rent, will constitute a contract of tenancy under the Act.
I want to object to this Clause altogether. I object to the insertion of any Clause which puts a restriction upon the raising of rent. I own no agricultural land, and I am not a tenant of agricultural land, and I can speak on the subject with perfect impartiality. We have heard a great deal lately about the inflation of the currency. The rate of interest has risen. Has not the landlord as much right as anyone else to obtain a greater rate of interest on his capital—that is to say, to raise his rent? Anyone who has a terminable bond secured on any undertaking in the world, if it fell due, would at once get a higher rate of interest. There is not a single person in the country who has a terminable bond who would not to-morrow get 1 per cent. or 2 per cent. more interest than he has been having in the past. The landlord is in precisely the same position, and is entitled on the mere question of the inflation of the currency and rise in the value of money to raise his rent as much as anyone else. If under this Bill the tenant is more able to pay that rent that would be a very proper opportunity for him to take.
I do not in the least understand how the arbitrator is going to decide this question—
"such amount as could have been obtained if Part I. of this Act had not been in force."
The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Prothero) told us that it was a matter of fact. It seems to me very far from a matter of fact. It is a matter of opinion on a very hypothetical question. Supposing, as some people say, that no money whatever is going to be paid under this guarantee, how is anyone going to say how much more rent a man is willing to pay because a guarantee exists on paper? This guarantee may be worth nothing at all It is a pure matter of opinion. The Clause in that respect is quite unworkable. Unless a very large sum is paid under the guarantee it will be impossible to work it.
But I want to object to this from another point of view. In the interest of every member of the community who is not a farmer it is a good thing that agricul- tural rents should be raised. I am now looking at the thing from the point of view of a man who has nothing to do with agriculture—a town dweller, a railway servant or a dock labourer. It is to the interest of all those men to have agricultural rents raised. The farmer pays Income Tax only on the amount of his rent. If you do not raise his rent he continues to escape Income Tax. If you raise his rent you get Income Tax from both the farmer and the landlord. Suppose the rent is raised from £200 to £300 a year, the farmer has to pay Income Tax on a further £100, and the landlord has to pay Income Tax, and probably Super-tax, on a further £100. The whole community, therefore, except the farmers, is very highly advantaged by the raising of agricultural rents. Not only that, under the system of assessment the local rates are benefited. Everybody gets the advantage. Not one single person is otherwise than benefited by the raising of the rents except the farmer. I cannot for the life of me sea why, when the law is as it is, and the best interests of agriculture are involved, you should pass a Clause which does nothing but harm.
I listened to the right hon. Gentleman's allusions as to the possibilities of rents being raised. I think he named three cases—the case of mortgages and interest, the case of tithe, and the case of repairs. I did not quite follow him in his argument that these could be safely dealt with without reference to the question of how far the tenant is able to pay additional rent, and how far this Act affects the power to pay that additional rent. In each of these cases that factor must come in. Although the landlord may have a perfectly good claim to add the additional tithe, it cannot be considered on the merits of tithe alone. It has to be considered on the other side also—whether the tenant can pay the rent. The arbitrator will have to consider in settling that what effect this Act has had upon the power of the tenant to pay his rent. There we get the question raised by the hon. Gentleman who alluded to the fact that in settling the question of whether the tenant would be unable to pay the rent, supposing the guarantee never comes into effect at all, the arbitrator has to consider how far the agricultural industry has been safeguarded and put upon a firm basis by this Bill having been passed into law. The whole thing is so connected that I do not quits see how much of these matters is going to be dealt with separately. It seems to me that where there are cases of tithe, or still more cases where the landlord is actually putting up buildings or paying out capital, he would be perfectly justified in charging interest on his expenditure; but he has to go through the somewhat complicated process of giving his tenant notice, and making a new agreement, and in that way be able to raise the rent, subject, of course, to the arbitrator's decision. I think that some of these cases ought to be put outside if you are to have a Clause of this sort. These sort of matters ought to be outside the working of the Clause altogether. Everybody hopes that this Bill will encourage the landlord to put capital into the land. There will be a very large amount of buildings wanted and a very large amount of capital will have to be spent upon the land if the arable land is to be kept up and properly cultivated. If you are going to propose a Clause which will discourage him from putting capital into the land it should not be accepted quite with the equanimity that appears in previous speeches. It is a better Clause than the last one, but there are still very considerable objections. It has come rather suddenly upon us, and we ought to consider before the further stage of the Bill how far it meets the case, the most important part of which is that capital should be encouraged to come into the cultivation of the land.
I hope that the Attorney-General will give us some further explanation of this Clause. So far as I understand it the hon. Member for Hexham is wrong when he says that it cannot raise rents. Rents can be and have been raised and land is selling for ten years' purchase more than before the War. It is provided that rent cannot be raised in so far as it exceeds such a sum as could have been obtained if Part I. of this Act had not been in force. I would like to ask the Attorney-General exactly what that means? Does it mean that if the guarantee is not operative, as I do not think it will be, then Part I. of the Act is not in force, and therefore rents can be raised? I should like to ask precisely whether that is so, because as I conceive the effect of the Bill I do not think that the guarantee ever will operate, and the whole of this elaborate Bill is really ludicrous. What is the correct reading of the Clause, and what is the correct reading of these specific words?
This Clause as I understand deals with contracts of tenancy made after the passing of the Act. I wish to know from the Attorney-General whether this Clause applies to Ireland? As far as I can see it does not apply to Ireland. If that be the case I should like to move the Amendment, of which I have given notice, that this Clause should apply to Ireland.
It does not apply to Ireland.
Then when this Clause has been read a second time I trust that the Government will agree to extend it to Ireland. I wish to ask whether an Amendment extending it to Ireland would be appropriate now?
I do not like to disagree with the Attorney-General, but I find in the Bill in front of me that in Clause 12, Sub-section (2), paragraph ( b ) dealing with Ireland, we struck out the words "shall not apply."
The point which is under discussion is one of some substance, but there is another point on which I wish to ask for some information. Obviously, with a large acreage of arable land some new accommodation is required, and will be absolutely necessary. The accommodation would not have become necessary had it not been for Part I. of the Bill in respect of the enforced guarantee, and the landlord will be entitled to increase the rent by 4 per cent. or 5 per cent.
It is a very odd position in which some of us old Radicals find ourselves, in the sense that we alone appear to be defending the rights of property in this House. I think it is a strange position, but I cannot in the least understand the injustice of raising the rent in the case where there is a rise in price of corn. Fair rent is partly made up of interest on capital and partly of the produce of the land, due to its extra fertility compared with other land under cultivation in the country. If you artificially raise the price of the landlord's share of the produce of the land, surely he ought to have an increased return to represent his part of the produce. If you do not do that you are making a wholly unnecessary gift to the farmer. Why not work out a calculation showing what part of the produce belongs to the farmer and what part to the landlord, and give the farmer the difference; but why should you make a present to the farmer of the difference in the price of the produce which belongs to the landlord? If the landlord is not to receive it, where is the justification for making a present to the tenant of the difference on the corn which in reality belongs to the landlord from the time it is grown. It is a partnership, and part of the produce of the soil belongs to the landlord as rent. That theory of rent has really never been shaken, though subject to a century of criticism. I think that it is perfectly sound. The Government so far have offered no justification for limiting the rent, if they are really going to offer the farmer the difference on the landlord's produce. I am not in favour of the Bill at all. I think it is not going to have the good effect claimed for it, and I do see certain mischievous results arising from absolute disregard of the ordinary laws of political economy. These laws are not artificial. They are perfectly sound deductions from experience, and they will assert themselves against the Attorney-General. I certainly protest against the whole Clause.
I shall make such stand as I can against the right hon. Gentleman's appeal to economic laws, and I hope that the Clause will receive serious support. My right hon. Friend (Mr. L. Jones) must be regarded as a remarkable recruit to those of us who have been accustomed to raise our voices on behalf of the landlords in this House. I have no doubt at all as to the intention and desire of the Amendments put on the Paper. My right hon. Friend the President accepted upon consideration and with the best advice available what appeared to be the view of the majority of the Committee at that time. The reception given to the substituted Clause 6 confirms my right hon. Friend and myself in the view that the substituted Clause 6 instead of the original Clause 6 has met the views of the majority of the Committee. The desire, as I understand, was that they did not wish that the advantages, if they were advantages, given under Part I. should be used as a means of increasing the rent as against the tenant. It has been said to-night that the guarantees would not come into effect at all and that this was a matter of drafting; but the balance of criticism which has come from the opponents of the Bill has been in quite the opposite sense and to the effect that we were giving an enormous advantage to the landlords, and quite an unjustifiable advantage. The two arguments have been advanced together, and if that of to-night is true it may allay the apprehensions of some as to the advantage being given to the landlord.
So far as I understood my right hon. and learned Friend his attitude is that the Act is in force, but then may I point out what the dilemma is. The right hon. Gentleman says that this State guarantee is not going to affect the landlord or the tenant, but the adjustment of rent is to be taken into account—in favour of the tenant, presumably, if the guarantee is to operate. Why then is this Clause only to operate in respect of corn? He says that it is when there is a rise in the price of corn not due to the Government subsidy, but to natural causes. In the case of corn the tenant is to be protected against a rise in rent, but against the rise in the price of store cattle and meat, if due to natural causes and not the Government subsidy, the tenant is not going to be protected. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman how on earth he justifies that? How will this operate at all to protect? If my theory be right, if Part I. is going to be enforced, that is to give the tenant the right to have his rent adjusted in such a way that the landlord shall not reap the whole benefit of it, how on earth can the arbitrator adjust it? Here is a rise in the price of corn that the landlord might legitimately think entitles him to raise his rent. Will the rent that he is enabled to obtain, and can accept, be such rent as could have been obtained if Part I. of this Act had not been in force? How will the arbitrator answer that? The rise in the price of corn has not been due to the operation of an Act of Parliament, but to the operation of world prices. I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman to say, on practical grounds, and for the benefit of the farmers who have not at their command the same juridical niceties, quite frankly how it will operate?
I try to be perfectly clear to the best of my humble capacity when I am explaining any of these matters, and there is no need to go into juridical niceties when endeavouring to explain agricultural matters. There will be instructions to the arbitrators who will have several years experience of the Act, and who will be guided by a consideration of normal and war times, and thus will be able, we believe, to arrive at a satisfactory conclusion, and in accordance with the explanation I gave a few moments ago.
For the first time I am really rather puzzled. I thought the meaning of this Clause was really quite clear, and that it expressed the general desire of the House. There was a general desire that the landlord should not share in any financial payments which become due to the farmer under Part I. of the Bill. If that is the meaning of the Bill the arbitrator will have something to go upon. He will say: "The question I have to decide is whether the tenant who is receiving payments from the Exchequer will reasonably and properly be able to stand a certain rent as being a fair rent under the circumstances. But if there are to be cases in which the Clause is to apply, although the tenant has not received anything under Part I. of the Bill—cases in which, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman says, Part I. would have been in force, but would not have been in operation—it seems to me an extraordinarily difficult matter to visualise that class of case. After all, if you ask these arbitrators to do work you must make it fairly clear what sort of work you want them to do, and if the President of the Board of Agriculture could give us some idea of an actual case in which the arbitrator would decide that Part I. of the Act had been in force, although not in operation, I think, with all respect to what my right hon. and learned Friend has said, it would help the Committee in coming to a conclusion. Although on the legal point I have no doubt my right hon. Friend is right, I think the Committee would like some guidance as to how the thing would work.
The Attorney-General did not deal with the point I made, nor did he explain why the words "after the passing of this Act" were included in this Section. As regards the point raised by the hon. Member for Pembrokeshire (Mr. Roch) it seems very simple. The only protection I find in this Clause is for the farmer who will benefit by the guaranteed price paid under the Bill. Provided he is not in a position to prove he has not benefited by the price, he is not entitled to any protection. In other words, so far as the rise in price is due to natural causes—world causes—then the landlord can apparently raise the rent, and the tenant will not be protected by the Section.
I had hoped the Government would have answered more fully the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Pembrokeshire. As I understand it, the financial advantages of this Bill will accrue only to the tenant. I say nothing at this point as to the justice of this measure; but how far will this Clause carry out the intentions of the Government? Although the rent will not be raised, will not the capital value of the land be raised? It seems to me that if the Government are really anxious to safeguard the interests not only of the present tenants but the future tenants, they should not only safeguard the rent payable if this Bill becomes law, but also safeguard the interests of future tenants. One further point. It has been mentioned to-night that Part I. will undoubtedly increase the amount of acreage under cultivation, but also, and automatically, Part I. in consequence will restrict the amount of land available for store cattle, and as there will be less land available for store cattle, the price of the land will automatically increase in value. This Clause may be brought forward with very good intentions on the part of the Government. They may be able to say in this House and in the country that the Bill will only give a particular benefit to the tenants, but I am bound to say that the Clause does not safeguard the interests of future tenants.
I apologise to my hon. and learned Friend. I intended to answer him when I spoke before. He asked me whether the words "any contract of tenancy made after the passing of this Act" would cover a case in which the only change in the tenancy was a modification with respect to the rent paid? I am inclined to think that they would. I think there would be such a variation as to make it a new contract of tenancy. The point is one of substance. I will look into the defining authorities between now and the Report stage, and if any modification is required I will bring up a new form of words. We are one in our object.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause read a second time.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the words "made after the passing of this Act."
This is the same point on which I have just given my hon. Friend an assurance which I understood he accepted as satisfactory. His object is to have the point made clear, but if the definition is sufficient there is no need to leave out the words.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move to leave out the words "a single arbitrator," and to insert instead thereof the words "an Agricultural Rent Board."
It seems to me that a single arbitrator is a very unsatisfactory authority, and that what we want is an independent third party. There is a growing demand in the country for some sort of tribunal to hold the scales evenly between the various parties in connection with this Act, particularly in the matter of rent. The body which we have created with regard to wages consists partly of masters and partly of men, and I suggest that here we should have a body consisting partly of landlords and partly of tenants. I should hope that it would be a body in which both landlords and tenants would have confidence, and of course there would be on it some independent nominee just as in the case of the wages board there is someone nominated by the Board of Agriculture. We want a body so constituted that it would be acceptable to both sides, and I have an Amendment later to constitute a board which would be more or less in the nature of a court to which all questions of this kind could be referred. It would be able to appoint local committees to deal with questions in the various districts and counties and gradually to gather a body of decisions and of law upon this subject and so make clear what were the rights and positions of people under this Act. A single arbitrator would have to decide each case separately and individually and we should never get anything like a continuous record of decisions. We want a body of independent and impartial persons, skilled in the interpretation of the Act and able to judge each case which is on the border line. A single arbitrator has many disadvantages, and does not seem to me to be at all a suitable authority to decide matters of this kind. I hope that the President of the Board of Agriculture may see his way to accept this Amendment, or, if not, that he will be able to indicate that there will be some other competent, independent, and impartial third party who will deal with questions of this sort as they arise.
This is a singularly unhappy proposal in the view of the Government, and it is one which it is quite impossible for us to accept. I do not know whether my hon. Friend, when recommending this course to the Committee for adoption, had in his recollection the fact that this is a Bill the operation of which is limited as to time, but to suppose that such bodies as he suggests, which from the nature of things must take different views, will, in dealing with questions of fact, collect a body of decisions and of law upon the subject is really a view which could not be defended by any reasonable argument.
Then how do you defend the setting up of the Wages Board in just the same way?
It is not the same thing at all. When you are dealing with the question of what wages shall be paid, you are dealing with a question which is very familiar, and which is an economic factor in the condition of affairs with which you are faced; but when you are dealing with questions of compensation, you are dealing with a subject which has been treated in all the cognate branches of the law of arbitration. There is, however, a much broader objection to this proposal. The best tribunal of all to deal with questions of this kind, in my humble judgment, is a single arbitrator or judge. The Lands Clauses Act produces in the least objectionable form the kind of tribunal that my right hon. Friend has in his mind, because it consists of an umpire and two arbitrators, one nominated by each party, and speaking for myself, I have never found a more unsatisfactory system, or one which makes less for economy, or fairness or rectitude of decision. Therefore, I do not think that to have four arbitrators, with an unfortunate umpire in the middle, dealing with questions of this kind, which ought to be judicial questions, would be an improvement on the proposal of my right hon. Friend.
Amendment negatived.
12.0 M.
I beg to move, in Subsection (1), after "1908" ["Agricultural Holdings Act, 1908"], to insert the words "Provided that any addition to the rent of an amount equal to the increase in the tithe above that payable in the year nineteen hundred and fourteen shall not be deemed to be in excess of that permitted under this Section."
This Amendment and the following one were put down by my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Peto) to deal with the question of tithe. The President of the Board of Agriculture very fairly admitted that this is one of those cases in which it is quite clear that there should be power to increase the rent. It is very hard that all this should fall upon the landlord, because undoubtedly the tithe owner, however much our sympathies may have been with him in the past, is now getting the benefit of the very high prices which are due to exceptional circumstances, namely, the War. He will undoubtedly get any advantage there may be through the Bill being in force. He gets the increase of tithe actually from two things which are a bar to the landlord receiving any benefit. It is a little hard that while you bar the landlord from getting any benefit from this Bill you also practically allow him to be responsible for the increase in tithe, with which he has nothing to do and which he cannot pass on unless he gets a new agreement, and even then he has to take it under conditions in connection with arbitration and otherwise. This is a case in which we might fairly make an exception. The Government evidently acknowledge the importance and the justice of it. I therefore hope they will see their way to accept some Amendment. Whether it is by accepting one or other of the Amendments of my hon. Friend (Mr. Peto) or in some other way, I do not care, but some means should be found to remedy this difficulty.
I am afraid that we cannot accept these Amendments. The question to be determined is whether the rent which is charged could have been obtained if Part I. of the Bill had not been in force. It does not matter whether the object be tithe or any other thing, that question remains. The right hon. Gentleman's Amendment suggests that where it is a case of tithe, whether you could obtain the rent or not without the Bill, then they should be allowed to charge it. That is contrary to the spirit of the Clause and I cannot accept it
May I suggest that if we begin accepting definitions of all the cases in which the landlord may increase his rent we will really have to provide for all the cases, which would be a very laborious and difficult thing to do? It is much better to work the Clause the other way about, and say there is one case in which the landlord may not increase his rent, leave all the other cases open, and make it perfectly legal for him to increase his rent.
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Motion made, and Question, "That the Clause be added to the Bill," put, and agreed to.
Clause added to the Bill.
Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.
Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow (Wednesday).
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
It being after Half-past Eleven of the clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER. adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Eight minutes after Twelve o'clock.